# WARNING - GRAPHIC RABBITRY DISCUSSION! Kindest way to kill badly deformed kits?



## Demismith (Sep 22, 2009)

Hi

I hope to start breeding and exhibiting rabbits soon (In the UK). I just want to get some extra bits of info together.

If a kit was born very badly deformed, what would be the most kind, painlessway of killing it?


----------



## fuzz16 (Sep 22, 2009)

I had an opps litter and the babies were all deformed but 1. I took one to the vet, he put him down for free...mum killed the other two after.

I'd try to find a vet and humanely euthanize or sometimes mom will kill them because she knows. Someone who actually breeds may have better advice


----------



## Saudade (Sep 22, 2009)

Placing the kits before they get fur and before their eyes open directly in to the freezer is the most humane way. Their body goes in to a state of shock instantly and they feel nothing, the rapid change in temperature means they will be gone within a minute.

However from then on breaking their necks across the edge of a table, the towbar/bullbar of a car or simply cutting straight through the spine with one clean blow from a heavy cutting instrument.


----------



## Demismith (Sep 22, 2009)

The first way sounds humane, I wouldn't be able to do the second one myself though :tears2:

Lets hope for healthy babies :bunnydance:


----------



## TinysMom (Sep 22, 2009)

I have put a warning on this thread in the header so that people will know right up front that this may become a graphic discussion.

For non-breeders - I ask that even if you disagree with the methods that are being discussed or the issue that is being discussed - you recognize that this is a place where breeders can discuss such issues. 

I have done the first way - it has broken my heart the few times I've needed to do it (and Art usually does it for me). 

I don't have a local vet that would help me though...so situations like that I have to handle myself.


----------



## fuzz16 (Sep 22, 2009)

Out in the country where I spent my summers they break the necks of the babies that are deformed. 

You don't twist...pull so the spine seperates. 

And it sounds cruel but it's part of it...anyone who raises any animal will always have deformed babies born and its the breeders responsibility at the point to put the animal down instead of letting them suffer thier short lives out with infections and pain.


----------



## Demismith (Sep 22, 2009)

The rabbits would be kept at my dads house, so I'm sure if the worst happened, he would do it 

I think I'll stick to the non-dwarf and non-imported rabbits, then maybe there will not be as many deformities.


----------



## tonyshuman (Sep 22, 2009)

Hi, I'm not a breeder but I know a bit about lab animals, and their regulations can be found here: 
RecommendationsâCarbon dioxide is acceptable for euthanasia in appropriate species (Appendices 1 and 2). Compressed CO2 gas in cylinders is the only recommended source of carbon dioxide because the inflow to the chamber can be regulated precisely.
Carbon dioxide generated by other methods such as from dry ice, fire extinguishers, or chemical means (eg, antacids) is unacceptable.

http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfare/euthanasia.pdf

I stole this from a post of Pamnock's because I couldn't find it elsewhere, hope that's ok.


----------



## Happi Bun (Sep 22, 2009)

*Saudade wrote: *


> Placing the kits before they get fur and before their eyes open directly in to the freezer is the most humane way. Their body goes in to a state of shock instantly and they feel nothing, the rapid change in temperature means they will be gone within a minute.


I do not agree that freezing is humane. It's called *freezing *for a reason. When the body goes into shock, it is anything but humane. Ever jump into a cold lake in winter in the high sierra while it's snowing? I have. The shock of the temperature change first takes your breath away, then the cold hits you. 

The body will make a last effort to save itself. Blood supply to the extremities will stop, causing them to go numb. The numbing sensation is painful, you can experience it by walking barefoot through snow for a few minutes. The body will also shiver to try and raise it's core temperature. 

I know when breeders freeze to kill deformed small animal young, they are hoping the shock of the temperature change will send the animal into cardiac arrest. However, if the temperature it not cold enough right away the act of freezing will first take place, which is anything but humane. What research has been done to prove it's humane? All reading I have done within the past few hours urges against freezing kits, but does list other acts of at home euthanasia deemed humane, like brain destruction. 

How do you know how long it takes before the kit is dead? Freezing will surely make the kit appear dead to the touch and in appearance, but the heart could be slowly beating as it succumbs to the cold. You would have to check periodically with a stethoscope to be sure.


----------



## polly (Sep 22, 2009)

Hi Demi I am in the UK are you in Scotland or England? I am sure either your dad would to it for you or maybe a breeder round where you live if you are going to show then you will be surprised how helpful they can be 

I breed netherland dwarfs and in 3 years we have only had maybe 3 or 4 max factor ( deformed babies) and the peanuts usually die themselves anyway. Just let nature take its course. SOmetimes you have to be cruel to be kind! My husband does any we have had and he usually either just pulls to break neck or uses edge of table to break the neck either way its very quick and unfortunately is part of keeping livestock.

TBh larger breeds can have more cullings than smaller breeds because there are probabaly more problems running through fur breeds and you get a lot of failure to thrive kits also bigger breeds can be harder to sell as pets.



If you have any questions feel free to pm me on any part of breeding and showing and I will help you out as much as I can 

Polly x


----------



## tonyshuman (Sep 22, 2009)

The link I posted has several methods (not just CO2), and the one Polly is talking about is called cervical dislocation, which is also a well-respected form of euthanasia.


----------



## wooly_queen (Sep 22, 2009)

Hey Demi. 

This is so sad...I have been lucky not to have any deformed babies. I would take them to our vet...I could'nt imagine anything else...I just don't have the heart to do it.


----------



## Happi Bun (Sep 22, 2009)

Thank you for posting that link Claire. 

According to the AVMA:

Cooling - This method is not recommended. Formation of ice crystals on the skin and in tissues of an animal may cause pain or distress. Quick freezing of deeply anesthetized animals is acceptable.


----------



## Erins Rabbits (Sep 22, 2009)

I haven't yet had this happen. From what I know, I would use the freezer method. If I ever raise a dwarf breed, this is what I'll do with the peanuts. Since they are in fact, so small, they go fast. And when they're frozen, a local pet-shop will often take the bodies as feeders for their snakes. I see it this way- at least they aren't going to waste.


----------



## Pipp (Sep 22, 2009)

Happi Bun wrote:


> According to the AVMA:
> 
> Cooling - This method is not recommended. Formation of ice crystals on the skin and in tissues of an animal may cause pain or distress. Quick freezing of deeply anesthetized animals is acceptable.



Happi-Bun, you're quoting the section for ectothermics like turtles and frogs. :grumpy:

It doesn't come as much of a surprise that most everything that doesn't involve a vet isn't an acceptable form of euthanization. 

Their report is even at odds with itself. They recommend CO/Co2 in the summary, but the text notes that burrowing animals like rabbits, and most babies of all species are more resistant to inhalants. Brain activity and thus the possibility of stress lasts quite awhile. 

Decapitation is controversial because of 13 or 14 seconds of 'electrical' activity of the brain, but recent studies dispute that there is pain and suffering, there is an immediate loss of consciousness and thus awareness. 

Right now there's a major campaign here to eliminate the 'inhumane' Co2 'boxes' a few shelters are using. I really want to look into this further. 

The Vets idea of humane euthanization of small animals is administering an anesthetic and then sodium pentobarbital, but aside from the fact that it requires an intravenous injection -- hard in cats and extremely hard for rabbits -- the stress of restraining and poking the poor animals, coupled with the obvious nausea, not to mention the ridiculous expense makes me wonder how this is considered more humane then a possible 13 second period of brain activity. 

Both the cats I've had put down recently were extremely stressed, the needles were painful and they vomited repeatedly. And the cost was upwards of $150 each.

Its so easy to take an overdose of pain meds or sleeping pills, it never ceases to amaze me how difficult it is to put down a suffering pet. 


sas


----------



## Bunnymom,K (Sep 22, 2009)

I have placed poorly formed newborn kits into a bucket of warm water, they go fast with no struggling. After they are a couple days old I recommend breaking or severing the neck so they do not suffer needlessly.

It is always heartbreaking to have to put down an animal- either yourself by one method or another or through a veterinarian- however sometimes it is the kindest and most responsible thing you can do.


----------



## Bramblerose (Sep 22, 2009)

I can't advocate freezing, or drowning, both are unpleasant and not immediate. Cervical dislocation is best, but not easy with tiny kits. I have used CO2 chambers which were professionally made, it seemed quick and painless done properly, first just enough to put the animal to sleep, then you turn it up once their asleep. I've used ether also for very small kits like peanuts, it works very quickly, I don't like using it on kits with open eyes, I feel that it causes irritation of the eyes.

When I put my old man siamese down years ago I drugged him heavily on Zanax before I took him to the vet, it was so much easier, he was barely concious. That trip to the vet is so hard on cats, I really think that vets should offer some sort of medication before hand to ease their pain and fear.


----------



## Happi Bun (Sep 22, 2009)

*Pipp wrote: *


> Happi Bun wrote:
> 
> 
> > According to the AVMA:
> ...


What's with the grumpy face? I missed that it was in the ectothermics section. I couldn't find where they specifically mentioned it so I typed freezing in the search on my program and it brought me to that small paragraph. Since they were using the term "animals" I assumed they meant all animals.

It was a mistake, my apologies.


----------



## Pipp (Sep 22, 2009)

Oh no, my apologies to you, Erika. I'm just so used to seeing that same data intentionally twisted, I was looking for a 'not happy' face. I really wasn't all that grumpy about it.  


sas :bunnydance:


----------



## Happi Bun (Sep 22, 2009)

Okay, phew. I've always had a problem of just skimming things quickly when reading, especially when a large quantity of data is involved. Yep, I'm lazy. Rest assured I was in no way trying to twist the data to make my opinion seem more valid. 

I'm glad we could clear that up.


----------



## polly (Sep 23, 2009)

I would have to say after seeing cervical dislocation I can easily say if u get it right the animal is gone instantly. The twitching is nerve impulse only. Believe me when u look in their eyes they have gone instantly. Much quicker than a vet giving a lethal injection.


----------



## tonyshuman (Sep 23, 2009)

Cervical dislocation (CD) is a preferred method of euthanizing mice that have been deeply anesthetized with isofluorane (no longer responding to a toe pinch) in research labs I have been part of. Controlled CO2 like Bramblerose mentioned is also done if large numbers of animals have to be euthanized at once. I have also seen exsanguination and it's one that should only be done if absolutely necessary for the experimental procedure (some things in neuroscience). I wouldn't do either of them on animals larger than a mouse or young kit, and a rat by CD is a bit iffy to me.


----------

