# English Lop Breeding



## Ali_1010 (Dec 20, 2008)

Ok, so for christmas im getting a third...yes a third...rabbit. ( Pottsy was SUPPOSED to be my birthday present but my birthday was last May and I just never found the right rabbit) Anyways, Im either getting 1 female english lop and the breeder will stud for me OR 1 male english lop and 1 female english lop. The rabbit(s) will be professionally shown and I would like to breed them if they're good rabbits (the breeder will be giving me show/breeding worthy rabbit(s)) 

So, my questions are:

how do I find a nestbox big enough for an english lops?
what size cage is big enough for an english lop mother and kits?
how do I make sure she doesnt squish the kits or smuggle them with her ears?
can I tell a show worthy english lop from a pet english lop?
what standards should I have for future homes without sounding to demanding? For pets? For show animals? 
Would it sound to demanding to ask them to stay inside and have a certain sized cage for pet and show? and for pet for them to be sputered at 6 months? 


Thanks!


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 20, 2008)

*Ali_1010 wrote: *


> Ok, so for christmas im getting a third...yes a third...rabbit. ( Pottsy was SUPPOSED to be my birthday present but my birthday was last May and I just never found the right rabbit) Anyways, Im either getting 1 female english lop and the breeder will stud for me OR 1 male english lop and 1 female english lop. The rabbit(s) will be professionally shown and I would like to breed them if they're good rabbits (the breeder will be giving me show/breeding worthy rabbit(s))
> 
> So, my questions are:
> 
> ...



So you're not going to show your rabbits, but you're going to have some one else do it? There's really no such thing as "professionally shown", you just have a breeder shown them for you,  

1. You can look at feed stores/ farm stores for nest boxes, but most aren't big enough. You may have to build your own  

2. A good cage size for mother and kits would be about 5' by 3 1/2' by 2 1/2' (tall). Even bigger is great. 

3. I don't think she will squish them. And it wouldn't be that easy to smuggle them with her ears  

4. The breeder should know what a pet quality english is and what a show quality english is. If not, I wouldn't buy from them. Pam will have some good ideas on how you can tell, though....I'm not very good myself. :?

5. Well.....I'm not really sure on that one, because I've never had to think about it yet. Basically, you just want to make sure the people know how to care for an EL, the cage is large enough for an EL, and all that other stuff that comes with owning rabbits and all. 

6. For show, you can't spay/neuter animals. If someone asks you for an EL as a pet, then you can ask them are they going to spay/neuter it? And where will it be kept  


Hope this helps! 

Emily


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## Ali_1010 (Dec 20, 2008)

Thanks!

As for "profesional shown" I meant I'd show it in ARBA shows instead of 4H shows like I normally do haha. 

Would an extra large dog crate work? Or a cube cage? Or a puppy play pen?

I know a show rabbit cant be spayed/neutered. I meant for pet haha. 

Thanks so much!

Also, would the dimensions of the cage you mentioned be o-k for just an English Lop? Im going to make cube cages for my two current rabbits and they're rather small and having a 4 by 2 cube cage...I like my rabbits to have a lot of room....so, I dunno what would be a good idea if I wanted lots of room for my EL?


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## Revverress (Dec 20, 2008)

> how do I find a nestbox big enough for an english lops?



I was given mine from a friend, but you can order one online from kwcages.com, or you can buy one from a vendor at a show. I'm not sure of the size on mine [I'll try to get a picture later if I can dig it out of the garage], but it's large enough for the mother to lay down in.



> what size cage is big enough for an english lop mother and kits?



3 foot by 2 foot is what I use. That's larger than what most ELop breeders around here use, and there was room enough for the mother and 7 kits.



> how do I make sure she doesnt squish the kits or smuggle them with her ears?



If you're very concerned, you can take the nextbox inside during the day and let the mother feed them one or twice a day. ELops are generally good mothers; I only had one baby be squished out of the whole litter when the mom accidentally jumped into the nestbox and landed on him. They don't smother them with their ears, don't worry. 



> can I tell a show worthy english lop from a pet english lop?



Oh boy. Read the ARBA standard to get a good idea, or ask around at shows. It's a little hard to explain standards without having a rabbit to show you.

Look for long ears [at least 21" to show; I prefer 23" and up], but keep in mind that body type is worth more than the ears. You want a broad head, rounded hindquarters, semi-arch body type, and good bone [straight legs, basically]. Look out for pigeon breast; feel the rabbits' chest to be sure that there is nothing protruding. Check for large gashes on the ears, and make sure to check for broken tails.



> what standards should I have for future homes without sounding to demanding? For pets? For show animals? Would it sound to demanding to ask them to stay inside and have a certain sized cage for pet and show? and for pet for them to be sputered at 6 months?



For my PET rabbits, I require to see a picture of the cage before purchase, they may not live outside in hutches, and I highly encourage spaying/neutering; I recommend a rabbit savvy vet to the buyer. I don't think I would ever -require- speutering, because of the cost, but you could offer to refund the rabbit if you recieve proof of it being spayed/neutered within a year, if you're concerned. You could also offer to have the rabbit fixed before sale, and ask reimbursement for the surgery.

For my SHOW rabbits, I require that they NOT live out in hutches; barns/sheds/garages are fine. I also have a list of certain breeders I will not sell to based on their reputation in the lop community.

This is a quick response, but this is all based on my -one- litter experience, and my one year of showing ELs. I would start joining lop clubs [join the Lop Rabbit Club of America to get tons of English Lop specific breeding info], and talk to more experienced breeders at ARBA shows. Lop people are generally very helpful with helping newbies get into the hobby, at least they are here.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 20, 2008)

*Ali_1010 wrote: *


> Thanks!
> 
> As for "profesional shown" I meant I'd show it in ARBA shows instead of 4H shows like I normally do haha.
> 
> ...


Ahh ok I see now. 

As for the cage, yeah that'd be ok for just an EL. I have my EL's in cages that are about 3 1/2 by 2 by 2. So, they're smaller, and that's what I'm going to use for brood cages as I don't have any larger hutches.  

Emily


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## Ali_1010 (Dec 20, 2008)

Thanks so much guys!

Yes, I intend on joining a lop club ASAP because of my current lop haha.

So, I just got off the phone with the breeder. Last week at the show I met her at, she said she had just bred 6 does...sadly, not one of them was pregnant :'(. So, she's going to rebreed them and she promised to update me when any news comes.  

Also, I meant how/ what age can I tell a pet worthy EL from a show worthy EL? Sorry, I worded it wrong XD


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## Revverress (Dec 20, 2008)

That happened to me the first time I went English Lop shopping too. The breeder bred several does, and none of them took! From what I understood, ELops are hard to get bred; their long tails get in the way grr.



> Also, I meant how/ what age can I tell a pet worthy EL from a show worthy EL? Sorry, I worded it wrong XD



Oh, alright. XD When I was choosing the pets from the show buns from my litter, I knew by 10 weeks which ones were definitely pets, and by 12 weeks, I had picked out my three show buns out of the remaining 6. The three pet girls were either small enough that I didn't think they would make senior weight, VERY chopped off in the butt, had bad bone, and one had a broken tail. The show ones has nice round ears, were the heaviest of the bunch, had long ears, broad heads, and balanced bodies.

It's tough, though. The one girl I sold as a runt is looking gorgeous... but I just didn't think she'd make weight. I'm crossing my fingers the doe I kept doesn't suddenly take a nose dive in type as she matures. Although right now at 6 months, she's looking nice. I just want her to stay that way. 

Out of curiosity, where are you located at? You don't have to tell me, I just like to know where the ELop people are.


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## Ali_1010 (Dec 20, 2008)

Hah,isnt that funny! Well fingers crossed her does will take this time!

I'm actually in Santa Monica, CA so in LA sorta...Im hoping that location will actually help since so many people spoil there pets here and would be willing to offer awesome homes.


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## Ali_1010 (Dec 22, 2008)

Ok, I have a new question...

So, I was explaining to the breeder that I would really like to just get a male and a female from her at the same time (since she's going to re-breed her does) and if they could be from different lines and she said that she can try but she only has 2 males that are from totally different lines and no females from totally different lines so they might have like, the same grandparents on their moms side or something. I'm really against inbreeding but I dont know where else I could find an EL....help?


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 22, 2008)

Try searching www.rabbitandcavydirectory.com and looking for other EL breeders in your area. 

Several of my ped. rabbits have the same grandparents way back in their lines...

Emily


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## Maureen Las (Dec 22, 2008)

There is something that I don't understand.....

I have a friend here who has 2 English lops and has lost 2 english lops in the last several years. 

She has gotten 2 of them from 1 breeder at separate times and the last 2 she got from 2 separate breeders. 
Now most of the breeders would show their rabbits at county fairs etc. so I don't know if that is quality stock or not as I know nothing about showing and breeding.

ALL of her English lops have had serious ear infections. 2 were PTS because the infections were either not treated properly or untreatable?? and the rabbits developed abscesses behind their eyes

How come you guys don't have ear problems like this with your E-lops???

I would be so afriad to have one because of this although they have wonderful dispositions??????????
Maureen


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## Ali_1010 (Dec 22, 2008)

^ I think they're just prone to it, they need a lot of upkeep in the way of ears...

^^ and nothing's ever been wrong with the offspring?

Ok, will do, I'll probably get a female from this breeder (she's in AZ) and then a male from another breeder...thanks so much!


Do you think a breeder would send me their EL's papers before-hand just so I could make sure nobody has the same relatives? 

Also, when I do have litters, should I ear tattoo the show-worthy ones for their future owners? When making a "tattoo system" what should I do? I got Pottsy's ear done and just put a "P" for Pottsy but I was thinking about starting a VERY small rabbitry and then putting the rabbitry's name first letter and then the rabbit's first name's letter..would that work? Im so confused with the whole tatooing thing. XD


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 22, 2008)

Just ask the breeder if the rabbit has any related relatives in her lines.  Or you can have her take a picture of the pedigree for you and send it. 

If you want too, you can put the tattoos in their ears. What I do for my rabbits' is put BSA for Blue Sky Acres and then I put the first letter of their name. If I buy a rabbit that doesn't have a tattoo, I make one up using their breeders' rabbitry name, and the first letter of their name; or, I put the tattoo that's on their pedigree. 

For Sage, my MR doe, who came without a tattoo, she came for Big Oak Rabbitry, so I put BOSS in her ear, I was going to put BOS, but people confused it with Best of Show. BOSS stands for Big Oak's Special Sage, but I just made the other S up, haha. 

Emily


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## Ali_1010 (Dec 23, 2008)

ok, thanks so much!


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 23, 2008)

Your welcome. 

Also, I forgot to answer your question, Angieluv. 

With EL's you have to check their ears, if not daily, weekly. You want to look for lumps/bumps on the inside and outside of the ears, wax buildup, scratches/cuts, and other things that can cause infection and other problems. 

I've never actually found if my EL's have wax in their ears or not....should probably do so, but I'm scared I'd push it farther into their ear canal when I tried to remove it. 

As for your friend having lots of ear troubles with her EL's, I don't really know why. Obv. they weren't treated well enough for the infections....and the abscesses behind the eyes is really interesting.....

Emily


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## Revverress (Dec 23, 2008)

Yes, ELops are prone to ear infections, but that is something we are trying to breed out. The breeders in my area do not have ear problems because we simply do not breed stock that carries that. Personally, I've heard of the ELop breeders here dealing more with feet abscesses than ear problems.

I tattoo any rabbit I sell; for the pet buyers, I let them choose their rabbit's name, and then I put "CR ___" [blank would be the rabbit's name]. For the show quality bunnies, I do the same thing, except I choose the name if the baby is not reserved [ie, I'm selling him/her at a show]. I always take down emails/adresses of buyers; mainly for my own record, and because I like to send the pet homes Christmas cards.  Also, since all of my pet buyers have been local so far, the rabbit vet around here always lets me know when she recognizes a tattoo on an ELop she spays/neuters.

Tattoos even on the pet rabbits can come in handy. I heard a story from another breeder who had sold a pet to a seemingly knowledgable, responsible teen who had kept rabbits before. The breeder found the rabbit while volunteering at a rescue months later, and was able to identify it by the tattoo. She tracked down the former owner, found out that the family had a history of animal abuse/neglect, and was able to get them in trouble with the law [true story!].



> Do you think a breeder would send me their EL's papers before-hand just so I could make sure nobody has the same relatives?



I personally would not send out pedigrees to people. However, I would be willing to list the first few generations on the paper; other breeds might do the same.

I think you're a little confused with the "line" thing. Both my English Lops come from the same line; however, they are not related. They're from the same breeder, same herd, same stock, but there's no blood similarity on the pedigrees. It's best to start with a pair from the same line as some lines are not compatable. Starting from one line gives you a better idea of what to expect if the breeder know his/her herd well.

Also, don't be afraid of slight inbreeding. One or two common ancestors back in the pedigree won't hurt. 

Holly

ETA: I clean ears at least every other day. I either use a Q-tip or [washed!] fingers to scoop wax out. ELops are extremely prone to wax build-up, so it's important to get that stuff out of there. And, as Blue Sky Acres said, you have to be careful about not knocking it down into the ear canal. Once or twice a month, usually before a show, I lightly wipe down the outer ear [not the canal] with a cotton ball wetted with a bit of baby oil.


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## Ali_1010 (Dec 23, 2008)

omg thank you so much, you've all been such a great help! ^__^

Ok, so I will do the name of my "rabbitry" (well, its super small but I'll be breeding rabbits and hopefully expand once we buy a house) and the first letter of my rabbits....sound good? 


Ok, I've got it, sounds good! So, I'll just get two from the same breeder. She's been breeding Elops for a long time and she seems really dedicated (she's in AZ and drove all the way out to Pomona for a show !:O) Plus, she's very nice to me and answers all my questions and doesnt treat me like some kid.  I'm trying to show her I'll be an awesome owners, I mean for starters we're driving 3-4 hours away just to get them! XD 


Also, I have genetic question XD.

Are there any combinations that are lethal to breed? I know this is a stupid question but I know some animals when bred can have lethal and/or bad (i.e deaf, blind) offspring. I'm just curious because I was thinking about a broken blue and broken black or broken blue and broken brown OR broken brown and broken black XD


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## Revverress (Dec 23, 2008)

Broken to broken isn't lethal, but it will give you charlies. Personally, I love charlies, but there's a chance they won't have enough color to be shown. Here's a cool site on pattern types:

http://www.thenaturetrail.com/SolidsBrokensCharlies.htm

I'm unaware of any lethal genes in English Lops; maybe some more knowledgeable breeders on here can shed some light on lethal genes?

Also, there is no broken brown. There is a broken agouti, which is kind of brown. 

I'm glad you've found a good breeder! It's always nice to have someone [sorta] in your area that is willing to be so helpful with your breed.


Just while I'm thinking about it, here's a site to Lop color genotypes:

http://www.lotsalops.com/genetics.html

I think it's fun to do the Punnet square things and figure out possible colors of babies, 'cause I'm a dork like that. 


Holly


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## Ali_1010 (Dec 23, 2008)

broken augoti, thank you...gee I feel so dumb XD

ok, I'll check out the websites for sure!


Also, your not the only one who likes the Punnet Squares rofl. In 7th grade I remember being like "yay! Punnet Squares!" could you tell I was a dork? XD


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