# Oxbow vs. Kaytee Timothy Complete



## MyBoyHarper (Mar 24, 2007)

(Sorry for the back to back posts. I had alreadyposted the nutritional post before I found the info I am putting here.If you guys wanted, you can merge the posts.)

Harper is on Kaytee Timothy Complete. I want to put all the bunnies onOxbow. Harper especially, because he needs that higher fiber in hisdiet. However, I found a few things that made me go "hmmm" and one thatmade me go "wait, what the..."

First, here's the comparisons:

KAYTEE:

*Crude Protein (min.)...............13.0% 
Crude Fat (min.)......................1.5% 
Crude Fiber (min.)..................18.0% 
Crude Fiber (max.).................23.0% 
Moisture (max.).....................12.0% 
Calcium (min.).........................0.3% 
Calcium (max.)........................0.8% 
Phosphorus (min.)...................0.3% 
Salt (min.).............................0.25% 
Salt (max.)............................0.75% 
Vitamin A (min.)................5000IU/lb*


OXBOW:

*Crude Protein (min) 14.00 %
Crude Fat (min) 1.50 %
Crude Fiber (min) 25.00 %
Crude Fiber (max) 29.00 %
Moisture (max) 10.00 %
Calcium(min) 0.35 %
Calcium (max) 0.85 %
Phosphorus (min) 0.25 %
Salt (min) 0.50 %
Salt (max) 1.00 %
Vitamin A, IU/kg 20,000
Vitamin D, IU/kg 880
Vitamin E, IU/kg 140
Copper, mg/kg 20*


Now, here's my problem. On the ingredients list, I don't like what Isee in Oxbow, but I MAY be reading it wrong. I'd like others to weighin with their opinions, and also to tell me if Iam just notreading this correctly. I'll list the first few ingredients of each.

First, KAYTEE:

*Sun-cured Timothy Grass Hay, Oat Hulls, Wheat Middlings, DehulledSoybean Meal, Ground Wheat, Ground Oats, Dried Cane Molasses, Salt*

(Okay, now with Kaytee, notice the first ingredient is timothy GRASS HAY. Then goes on to wheat middlings, and ground oats.

next, OXBOW:

*Timothy Grass Meal, Soybean Hulls, Wheat Middlings, Soybean Meal, Cane Molasses, Salt, Limestone, Yeast Culture*

Now, here's my problem. Look at Oxbow. The first ingredient is timothygrass *MEAL.* Does that "meal" mean what it means in dog foodterms, that it's not actually the grass, but the remnants of it? Also,instead of oat hulls, they use soybean. Isn't too much soy not good foranimals? 

Next, and this is my biggest, *LIMESTONE*. Now, is this limestonetotally different than the limestone I am thinking of? :shock:

I'm just a little :crazinesswith my boys, so I worry aboutwhat they put into their mouths and their little tummies. Any opinions,analysis, ect. would be awesomely appreciated. You may (or may not)even get a cookie for replying!


----------



## MyBabyBunnies (Mar 24, 2007)

I'm not sure if it's the same thing as the rock... lol. But I've never heard of anything called limestone other than that.

That being said, limestone is used in many pellets as a source ofcalcium. It is not dangerous to feed it (in limited quantities, toomuch calcium will be a bad thing though). Oh and they add more calciumbecause too little calcium can result in rickets (osteomalacia in olderanimals) which is just basically a softening of the bones.

Personally I love Oxbow, I tried Kaytee and I had issues with softpoos. SoI swithed to Oxbow and not only has that stopped,their overall condition has improved and the shedding has been cut inhalf.


----------



## MyBoyHarper (Mar 24, 2007)

*MyBabyBunnies wrote:*


> I'm not sure if it's the same thing as the rock... lol. ButI've never heard of anything called limestone other than that.
> 
> That being said, limestone is used in many pellets as a source ofcalcium. It is not dangerous to feed it (in limited quantities, toomuch calcium will be a bad thing though). Oh and they add more calciumbecause too little calcium can result in rickets (osteomalacia in olderanimals) which is just basically a softening of the bones.
> 
> Personally I love Oxbow, I tried Kaytee and I had issues with softpoos. SoI swithed to Oxbow and not only has that stopped,their overall condition has improved and the shedding has been cut inhalf.


First, like you, I have never heard of limestome other than the rockand gravel. Our driveway is limestone and I instantly thought of that.I didn't know it could be used in foods, how odd. 

Also, glad to hear that the shedding improved with Oxbow.

Harper has been in a constant molt for... oh, about 1.5 years now. Imean, a litterally constant molt. This is due to his vitamindeficiencies cause his gut doesn't work right. He's on supplements, I'dhate to see him OFF supplements. :shock:Anyways, I switchedhim to Kaytee about a year ago, after he had 3 non-surgery-requiredblockages within about 2 months. I watched his coat improve (of course,he was on walmart food before, UGH!) and no more blockages untilearlier this year, and then his big blockage with surgery in November. 

The vet(s) have pushed and pushed on me switching to Oxbow, so I was(am) ready to do so. I'm just a little neuro-:crazinessaboutreading the ingredients first. 

I am glad to hear your first hand account of the bunnies improvement with Oxbow!


----------



## MyBabyBunnies (Mar 24, 2007)

Mocha used to constantly shed, now he hasn't shed since his fall moult. He is just starting his spring moult.

Well it's ground limestone they use (calcium carbonate). FromwhatI remember from chem, calcium carbonate is a rather softcompound. I don't think it's the rock they use, they is compressed butthere are many sources of calcium caronate and as far as I'm awarelimestone is just the common name for it. (Like water is the commonname of H[suB]2[/suB]O.)


----------



## MyBoyHarper (Mar 24, 2007)

Ohhh, okay! I've heard of calcium carbonate (it's what makes up Maalox Advanced )

I believe Kaytee had calcium carbonate, or something similar, down their line of ingredients. Now I'm not so concerned.

What about the hay vs. the meal? Kaytee says it's timothy grass hay,while Oxbow says it's timothy grass meal. What's the difference? Is onebetter than the other in that sense?


----------



## MyBabyBunnies (Mar 24, 2007)

I don't know what the difference between meal and sundried hay would be?

I love Oxbow, I can't get all of mine to eat it though. Spice will noteat any other brand of pellet other than what he's been on his wholelife. But Mocha and Zoey eat like I starve them everytime I put pelletsout, that's how much they like them. If it wasn't good, I wouldn't bepaying $3/lb. Luckily for you it should be cheaper butshipping it to Canada is very expensive.


----------



## MyBoyHarper (Mar 24, 2007)

I'm not sure what the difference between meal and hay is either, but I'm pretty curious to find out.

After all my research, I feel comfortable ordering the Oxbow. I'd putthem all on Kaytee Timothy Complete, but at $8 a 5lb bag, it's tooexpensive. Harper goes through a 5lb bag in about 10 days or so. With 3bunnies eating, I'd be spending a fortune. Oxbowcomes out alot cheaper. It's $25, plus $28 to ship for a 50lb bag. So... $53. Notbad at all. Wish I could afford the hay too, but pet store hay is goodenough for now. My boys devour it.


----------



## undergunfire (Mar 24, 2007)

I have to order 50lbs of Oxbow on April 6th, andit is going to cost me $50.93 including shipping. I just love thequality of the food and how well my bunnies are doing on it.


_- Amy (Mallory, Morgan, and Madilyn-Mae):hearts_


----------



## juicyjuicee (Mar 24, 2007)

I'm pretty sure Kaytee has something in it that causes cancer.

I heard about it on a guinea pig forum.


----------



## MyBabyBunnies (Mar 24, 2007)

Kaytee doescontain a carcinogen (Ethoxyquin)_but_ there is noperfect food made. Oxbow also has Menadione (synthedic vitamin Kadditive) which is believed to cause cytotoxicity in liver cells.

Nothing man made will ever be perfect, we have to settle for the bestwe can get. This is one of the many reasons I do a pellet and veggiediet. It means I have to feed less pellets.

MBH, I _wish_ Oxbow was that cheap here. A 10 lb bag is $30 for meand my 2 go through a bag a month, veggies end up being cheaper so Ifeed more veggies to make the pellets last longer. Kaytee is $20 for a10 lb bag but I like Oxbow better after seeing the results for myselfand seeing how much Mocha and Zoey love it.


----------



## undergunfire (Mar 24, 2007)

I too feed less pellets and a lot of fresh veggies. The boys LOVE their veggies everynight before bed.


_- Amy (Mallory, Morgan, and Madilyn-Mae):hearts_


----------



## MyBoyHarper (Mar 24, 2007)

Man, you guys are so lucky. Harper hates hisveggies, and will only eat dandelion greens (I buy the organic fromwhole foods) and carrot tops. Anything else, he'll let it sit there anddry up.

Chance loves his veggies, and Thumper is a little bit picky, but eatsmore than Harper does. It would just be so easy if all 3 ate theirveggies, then I'd be able to feed less pellets too!


----------



## undergunfire (Mar 24, 2007)

Picky over their veggies?! My buns just devour them. Well....Madilyn is still getting used to them:tongutwo:.



_- Amy (Mallory, Morgan, and Madilyn-Mae):hearts_


----------



## JadeIcing (Mar 24, 2007)

Veggies they never turn down. I order 50#pellets and #50 orchard grass. $113 and change total from oxbow. Theylove it. It last me 5months. Sameamount a money buying in the storeshere last me 3months.


----------



## undergunfire (Mar 25, 2007)

Exactly. I get hay for free. from my fiance'smother's friend who has two bunnies...I just have to buy the pelletsand veggies...and the never ending supply of toys!

I am going to order a 50lbs bag of Oxbow from oxbowhay.com....but Ionly have three bunnies and go through about 7 pounds of food permonth....I hope some of the pellets don't go stale or anything:dunno.



_- Amy (Mallory, Morgan, and Madilyn-Mae):hearts_


----------



## Blyre (Mar 25, 2007)

I store my pellets in my fridge to help keep them fresh. My four buns generally go through a 10 lb bags a month.

Wallace


----------



## naturestee (Mar 25, 2007)

I love Oxbow pellets! And so do my rabbits!

The higher fiber is a major bonus, especially for rabbits with GI issues like your Harper and my Fey and Sprite.

I'm not sure what the timothy grass meal is, but it's probably justchopped up processed hay. I've never heard of soy beingparticularly bad for rabbits, just that it's a fairly common allergenin dogs and cats which would never eat it in the wild anyway.Soybeans are related to alfalfa and clover, so aren't too far fromnormal rabbit food.


----------



## Bassetluv (Mar 25, 2007)

I'm not sure what the difference is between'grass meal' and 'grass hay'...to me it sounds like the meal is simplyhay that has been chopped finely into a 'meal'. I could be wrongthough, as I'm guessing.

I did switch Raph a few months ago from LabDiet - which is analfalfa-based pellet - to Timothy Bunny Basics T, because he wasshowing signs of sludge in his urine (difficulty urinating, sometimespassing thick, almost pasty urine). The switch in both his pellets andhis hay (he now eats only timothy hay, vs undertermined hay type fromthe feed store) as well as limiting the amount of calcium-rich veggiesseems to have made quite a bit of difference. I have also read,however, conflicting reports about calcium in veggies given to rabbits;some say to avoid any and all vegetables that contain high levels ofcalcium...others say that it doesn't make a difference, as calciumwithin vegetables isn't absorbed in high amounts because of the overallwater content in the vegetables themselves.

Limestone is a source of calcium carbonate...which is most likely whyyou see it added to the pellets. Calcium oxalate is a more highlyabsorbable form of calcium; however, any calcium found in pelleted foodis absorbed rather easily by rabbits. In both the Oxbow and the Kayteelist of ingredients that you posted, the calcium content is lowcompared to other manufacturers' pellets (for instance, the Lab Diet5326 that I was feeding to Raph had a listing of 1.2% calcium content).

At any rate, I suspect that either the Kaytee or the Oxbow would begood for your bunnies...what I do with Raph is to simply limit theamount of pellets he gets, and I feed him lots of veggies and fruits,and I encourage him to eat more timothy hay as well (he's not a big hayeater).


----------



## karona (Mar 25, 2007)

I feed Kaytee Compleat. I love it and have had far less extra cecal wit it as upposed to oxbow.


----------



## MyBabyBunnies (Mar 25, 2007)

*karona wrote: *


> Ifeed Kaytee Compleat. I love it and have had far less extra cecal witit as upposed to oxbow.


I had the opposite effect. Mocha's cecals_ tripled _on KayteeTimothy Complete compared to the alfalfa pellet he was on. Ever sinceswitching to Oxbow I rarely see any.


----------



## AngelnSnuffy (Mar 25, 2007)

Mine are now on Oxbow-T now and their coats are soooo much softer it's unbelievable!


----------



## MyBoyHarper (Mar 25, 2007)

Thanks for all the great advice guys, it reallyhelped in my decision! I am definitely ordering Oxbow, no doubt aboutit! And now that you guys mention it, I do notice that Harper has a lotof extra cecals even after he eats the ones he's supposed to eat. Andhis coat -- while shiny, is pathetic with the amount of hair that fallsout. I'm sure I'll definitely see a nice change in his coat when weswitch to Oxbow. Yay! 

Also, like Angela said, the extra fiber is a huge plus! :thumbup


----------



## Spring (Mar 25, 2007)

Sounds great! 

I'd love to know how he reacts to it. I'd like to have my bunnies onoxbow, but it would be a lot of work getting it and it'd cost so much. 

I tried Kaytee timothy complete and Poppy would not touch it at all.She would just eat her old pellets and leave the new one. They arehappy with the pellets they have now though .


----------

