# Savannah



## paul2641 (Jan 16, 2009)

We just got a new lionhead today, It is a female. It is black and around 4 months. She is named Savannah. She is living with Sukura they are getting on really well. I had them in my mothers bedroom so they could bond took all of 5 min. I will update with photos In the next few days. My mams friend is dropping me in an unused cage that she has so if something goes wrong I can separate them. Please tell me what you think about my new addition. Oh and I think she is real special because she has really small ears and a real round head!


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## naturestee (Jan 16, 2009)

PLEASE be aware that they are right around the age where they will suddenly get hormones (puberty) and start fighting! I'm really uncomfortable with rabbits of this age being housed together, especially if they didn't grow up together. Even then you can get some horrible fights. I have seen nasty injuries and even one death on the forum from rabbits fighting at the onset of puberty.

Honestly I would separate them until they are older, preferably after they are spayed. If they're for breeding then you really don't want to keep them together as you'd have to separate them when they give birth and rear kits.


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## irishbunny (Jan 16, 2009)

What happened to concentrating on the rabbits you have now and going to England for good rabbits? You shouldn't keep buying all these rabbits on impulse.


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## paul2641 (Jan 16, 2009)

We are going to England still, This wasn't impulse I have had my eye on this rabbit since last week I have talked with my mother and she said it was ok. And I am getting another cage in the next few days from my mothers friends so any fighting, I will separate them. The only reason Iallowed myself to getthis rabbit was because I am getting this other cage off my mams friend. So if I needed to seperate them. I will have 15-16 rabbits when I get back to England. And I should be able to support them because I would be breeding. I would only breed each female 3 times a year.


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## irishbunny (Jan 16, 2009)

Mmm, right well good luck anyway.


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## Sabine (Jan 16, 2009)

*paul2641 wrote: *


> We are going to England still, This wasn't impulse I have had my eye on this rabbit since last week I have talked with my mother and she said it was ok. And I am getting another cage in the next few days from my mothers friends so any fighting, I will separate them. The only reason Iallowed myself to getthis rabbit was because I am getting this other cage off my mams friend. So if I needed to seperate them. I will have 15-16 rabbits when I get back to England. And I should be able to support them because I would be breeding. I would only breed each female 3 times a year.


I hate to be a spoil sport but how on earth do you think you're going to make money out of breeding rabbits. If you seriously consider getting that many rabbits you need to invest at least 1000 euo and have back up for emergencies. And as you said you were gong to be a responsible pet owner from now on put at least 400 aside for all their spays and neuters


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## paul2641 (Jan 16, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> Mmm, right well good luck anyway.



I think I will separate them when we get the cage off my mams friend just to keep everyone happy.:biggrin2:


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## paul2641 (Jan 16, 2009)

*Sabine wrote: *


> *paul2641 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > We are going to England still, This wasn't impulse I have had my eye on this rabbit since last week I have talked with my mother and she said it was ok. And I am getting another cage in the next few days from my mothers friends so any fighting, I will separate them. The only reason Iallowed myself to getthis rabbit was because I am getting this other cage off my mams friend. So if I needed to seperate them. I will have 15-16 rabbits when I get back to England. And I should be able to support them because I would be breeding. I would only breed each female 3 times a year.
> ...


I never said Profit or if I did I meant enough so they can pay for food. I have money â¬175 in case I have to bring any to the vet.Also My Mam Is putting away â¬15-â¬20 away every week in my credit union so I will have the money for the Trip to England and Anything else She will cover with summer vacation money.


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## Sabine (Jan 16, 2009)

*paul2641 wrote: *


> *irishbunny wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Mmm, right well good luck anyway.
> ...


What on earth are you doing? How about focusing on your existing rabbits that are in desperate need of some TLC


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## paul2641 (Jan 16, 2009)

*Sabine wrote: *


> *paul2641 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *irishbunny wrote: *
> ...


Sorry I'm lost what do you mean by this? I don't see how separating Savannah and Sukura is a bad thing, I have been told it's a bad idea to house them together. I got this new cage sorted and now you telling me not to seperate Sukura and Savannah? Or do you mean me getting more rabbits from England? Well My rabbits at the moment are getting brushed daily although Roger is moulting. I'm petting them everytime I'm in the kitchen. So what is wrong with that?


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## Sabine (Jan 16, 2009)

*paul2641 wrote: *


> *Sabine wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *paul2641 wrote: *
> ...


What's wrong with it is that only a while back it wasn't possible to seperate the male and the female for lack of *a* cage. although you knew very well how dangerous it would be for the female and the babies. And now rather than focusing on gaining the trust of your three and letting them recover you buy another one and plan for more rabbits from England. 175 euro will pay for one spay and one neuter and that's that.
Also, if your shed is to be converted into a proper rabbitry it's going to cost. Are you willing to invest all that if only a few weeks ago another cage wasn't an option


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## naturestee (Jan 16, 2009)

Err... Breeding rabbits COSTS more money than it makes. Start a new thread on that, ask how many breeders here make enough cash from selling babies to cover all their rabbit expenses. Not even counting shows and such, usually the only way to make money off them is to turn the girls into baby factories and skimp on the level of care you're giving. But you'd still need guaranteed buyers (or a meat market). It might be easier for breeders with high quality show stock and are well-known for good rabbits, but that takes years to get that experience and respect.

Please step back a bit, look at your current animals (you bought one without the cage for her yet???) and do more research.


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## paul2641 (Jan 16, 2009)

*Sabine wrote: *


> *paul2641 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *Sabine wrote: *
> ...


Well to be honest how does getting another rabbit stop me bonding with my other rabbits? It wasn't out of the question I just never really asked mam and stressed the importance. But once the babies came I stressed the importance.


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## paul2641 (Jan 16, 2009)

*naturestee wrote: *


> Err... Breeding rabbits COSTS more money than it makes. Start a new thread on that, ask how many breeders here make enough cash from selling babies to cover all their rabbit expenses. Not even counting shows and such, usually the only way to make money off them is to turn the girls into baby factories and skimp on the level of care you're giving. But you'd still need guaranteed buyers (or a meat market). It might be easier for breeders with high quality show stock and are well-known for good rabbits, but that takes years to get that experience and respect.
> 
> Please step back a bit, look at your current animals (you bought one without the cage for her yet???) and do more research.


I don't want a profit, All I'm saying is that they could give money for there food, as I said I wouldn't breed them more then 3 times a year. Therearn't rabbit meat factories in Ireland so don't worry there. And My rabbits only cost me â¬10 every week for there food so I can see if I breed and a whole litter lives them buying food for 2-3 weeks is actually possible. I don't expect from breeding to get enough money to pay for regular vet trips and of the sort. I don't need to worry about shows.


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## Sabine (Jan 16, 2009)

*naturestee wrote: *


> Err... Breeding rabbits COSTS more money than it makes. Start a new thread on that, ask how many breeders here make enough cash from selling babies to cover all their rabbit expenses. Not even counting shows and such, usually the only way to make money off them is to turn the girls into baby factories and skimp on the level of care you're giving. But you'd still need guaranteed buyers (or a meat market). It might be easier for breeders with high quality show stock and are well-known for good rabbits, but that takes years to get that experience and respect.
> 
> Please step back a bit, look at your current animals (you bought one without the cage for her yet???) and do more research.


I think starting a new thread asking that question is a good idea. Also in Ireland it is very unlikely that people bying a pet rabbit will pay premium prices and there's no network of established breeders.I reckon the upkeep of my six rabbits costs me 100 euro a months easly and I expect having to pay out more if I indulge in breeding Magic.I also spent about an hour a day cleaning and handling minimum. Not sure into how many hours that translates if you have a whole rabbitry plus 4 pet rabbits


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## irishbunny (Jan 16, 2009)

Paul everyone who has posted thinks your doing this wrong, is everyone but you wrong? Just because you see a pretty rabbit in a petshop doesn't mean you have to buy it, they aren't toys in the window ofa toyshop.


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## Numbat (Jan 17, 2009)

Hi! Well first, congrats on getting your new bunny . I don't think it was the best decision either though. Getting another bunny means spending less time with your other bunnies who obviously need it! I know they're hard to resist, but try to do what's right for your bunnies . 

Regarding your decision to start breeding, I agree with everyone else. I'm not an expert but it sounds like it will cost a lot more than you can afford. You couldn't even buy another cage for Sukura when she needed it and that wasn't very long ago. Even if you had enough money to support it, how would you get the money to start it? It costs a significant amount of money to start a rabbitry.For a start, where will the rabbits live if just a few weeks ago you couldn't afford even *one* cage.It sounds like you want to dothis for enjoyment purposes. If so, whystart with 15 rabbits? I don't see them all getting the care they deserve. 

Hope you think this through and do what's best for your current rabbits. 

Btw, Looking forward to pics of Savannah. Don't forget to spend lots of time with Suki, Sukura and Roger too.

Tess


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## Flashy (Jan 17, 2009)

I find it very sad that you have done this. If you really couldn't do without this rabbit the responsible thing would have been to get a cage FIRST and then get the rabbit. 

It seems to me like you view these rabbits as toys, not actually as living things, and this is probably what causes you to be so ignorant and immature with their welfare.

If you are going to be a responsible and respectable breeder you are going to need to learn hard and fast and grow up a great deal, otherwise you will just be a backyard breeder.

Everyone has the potential to be a great rabbit owner, and that includes you. I would have thought you would have learnt from your recent litter experience (things like rabbits need space, you have a lot to learn, to slow down and focus on the rabbits you have, to bond with those you have), but it seems apparently you haven't learn all that much. That's quite sad that all those involved went through all that for nothing. 

I just hope in recent coming months you can start to learn and grow and work in a more mature manner.


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## paul2641 (Jan 17, 2009)

Well all my rabbits are being brought up to the sitting room so they can be petted, Sukura and Savannah spent ages up here last night, Roger and Suki come up seperatly so they don't get as much time up but it's one on one time. I have been grooming roger every day getting his coat correct as it was a little messy(plus he is molting) I am cutting all there nails when my mother comes back from town. And we are getting this new cage off my mams friend really soon.

As I said the cage for sukura was never out of the question I only asked mam once and she said nothing and I just left it, but when we got the kits andSukura was in the box2 nights I stressed the importance of her getting a new hutch. I could never see my rabbits costing meâ¬100 even now they only cost â¬10 and there on supa branded food, And Roger and Suki get some veg once a week. I know Sabine you spend alot on fruit and veg, but most of mine arn't even old enough for fruit and veg. We normally give Roger and Suki carrot and sunflower seeds, they only get carrot once a week but they get sunflower seeds everyday. I know sunflower seeds are really good for them. I do my best, I may sound cheap but I have searched everywhere to get the best deals on all there food. And every time I have to get food I walk to the store don't get a bus or a lift instead of getting that coloured mixed food. They also get out to run around (1-2hrs a day) excluding the time they spend with me. So I don't see how they don't get enough attention?


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## paul2641 (Jan 17, 2009)

OMG suki has been binking all around the kitchen,So I'm guessing she is happy. I clipped suki and rogers nails, Suki was no trouble but roger is a differant story, he was bitting.


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## irishbunny (Jan 17, 2009)

Like Flashy said, you seem to think these rabbits are toys, and when you see a pretty one in a petshop you have to buy it. Yes, this rabbits was bought on impulse because you had no cage ready for it. Putting rabbits together is stupid and cruel, they have to go through a bonding process. What would have happenedif they started fighting and you couldn't separate them?

When you get a new rabbit, you need to have it's *own* cage, so it can go straight in there when you get home, to find itself after the move because it is very stressful on the rabbit.

Someone who wants to be a breeder doesn't go off and buy loads of pet rabbits, you told me that the shed you have is around the same size of the shed I'm getting, well, your shed is nearly full now. To me, it seems more like you just want to be a breeder so you can have all these rabbits.

I don't understand why you can't be happy and love the rabbits you have who are definatly in need of some love and attention. In the space of about a month and a half you have bought 4 rabbits.


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## irishbunny (Jan 17, 2009)

*paul2641 wrote: *


> OMG suki has been binking all around the kitchen,So I'm guessing she is happy. I clipped suki and rogers nails, Suki was no trouble but roger is a differant story, he was bitting.


They need attention all the time, a week or two ago they were just getting a pat through the cage and the rabbits were in bad need of grooming, to me, four pet rabbits is too much for a new rabbit owner.


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## paul2641 (Jan 17, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> Like Flashy said, you seem to think these rabbits are toys, and when you see a pretty one in a petshop you have to buy it. Yes, this rabbits was bought on impulse because you had no cage ready for it. Putting rabbits together is stupid and cruel, they have to go through a bonding process. What would have happenedif they started fighting and you couldn't separate them?
> 
> When you get a new rabbit, you need to have it's *own* cage, so it can go straight in there when you get home, to find itself after the move because it is very stressful on the rabbit.
> 
> ...


It has been 3 months as of today got roger on the 17th of october. Well I'm getting the new cage in the next few days. I let them in my mothers room to bond all day, and only put them in the cage at the night. All they did was sit down and relax. Were also building a run, Witch we are getting the supplies for in the next few days, There going out in the next month or so, And We might be keeping some rabbits in the house.


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## irishbunny (Jan 17, 2009)

Ok, well I'm not going to agree with you at all and obviously everyone here is wrong and your right. Everything anyonehas ever said to you on this forum has gone in one ear and out the other.


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## paul2641 (Jan 17, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> Ok, well I'm not going to agree with you at all and obviously everyone here is wrong and your right. Everything anyonehas ever said to you on this forum has gone in one ear and out the other.


I never said I was right, And I don't let things just go out one ear, I do listen. But I am getting another cage.


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## Sabine (Jan 17, 2009)

*paul2641 wrote: *


> *irishbunny wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Ok, well I'm not going to agree with you at all and obviously everyone here is wrong and your right. Everything anyonehas ever said to you on this forum has gone in one ear and out the other.
> ...


Well, if you did listen to people, the next thing you should do with your remaining Christmas money is to get your animals spayed/neutered and vaccinated rather than running off and bying even more. That would show that you learned something from your recent tragedy


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## irishlops (Jan 17, 2009)

well. i read through this thread. i am not a breeder. (and caramel better not think of making one!lol) any way. rabbits are living feeling creatures. they need time to bond, and there own spce. (cage)
think!!
how rabbits do you have now? 3 is it? any way, think of that time. and also cleanning. do you? petting stroking? 
also what about exerscise. 
do you have enough time? i say think about this. then get not 15 rabbits a one go mabye 4 or 5.
just to see.
im sorry every one is being blunt. but its for the rabbits own good.
p.s before any one points this out im am a discrage to rabbits. so i dont even know i sould bother posting this


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## Flashy (Jan 17, 2009)

I just fele its important to jump in here and say that everyone makes mistakes with their rabbits. No one person is perfect, and everyone makes mistakes. What is important if how you learn from those mistakes. It is that that makes you a good rabbit owner or not.


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## irishlops (Jan 17, 2009)

yes your right.
i let a rabbit dye. i did not take it to the vet. thats how good i am......


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## Sabine (Jan 17, 2009)

Without wanting to take away from anything I posted earlier - this must be the saddest welcome a little rabbit received on the forum -
Therefore I'd like to say:
, :welcome1 Savannah!


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## paul2641 (Jan 17, 2009)

Savannah and sukura are getting on brill, But I still will be seperating them when I get the new cage(from mams friend). I need to wait till my sister gets back to ask can I use her camera. Then I will get some pics of Savannah and some with Sukura.


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## paul2641 (Jan 17, 2009)

I was wondering how would I show if my rabbit is of good quality from a pic, what side should I take the pictures from? Because Savannah is a little more show worthy then the others. Really short ears, round head and short hair apart from the mane. She feels like satin. Could she have mini rex in her?


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## paul2641 (Jan 17, 2009)

Here is Savannah!










































Savannah and Sukura best buds!


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## Numbat (Jan 17, 2009)

Welcome Savannah! The computer I'm on has a crap screen so I can only see blobs. I'll get on the other one in a sec so I can say 'oh she's so cute' truthfully 

Please rethink your decision of getting more rabbits though! Four is already quite a handful!


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## paul2641 (Jan 17, 2009)

Could someone tell me if Savannah has any show potential?


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## Sabine (Jan 17, 2009)

In the last picture is she the one on the left?


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## paul2641 (Jan 17, 2009)

*Sabine wrote: *


> In the last picture is she the one on the left?


Yeah,why? There still in the rooming on the couch sitting next to me relaxing.


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## Sabine (Jan 17, 2009)

They look very similar it's hard to tell


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## paul2641 (Jan 17, 2009)

*Sabine wrote: *


> They look very similar it's hard to tell


Who you think prettier? Well when you see them in person they look nothing alike apart from colour. I don't know why Savannah came out largely grey when she is pitch black must be the lights I had on to lighten up the pics.


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## Sabine (Jan 17, 2009)

They are both beautiful and deserve the best


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## paul2641 (Jan 17, 2009)

*Sabine wrote: *


> They are both beautiful and deserve the best


Off topic can I have a large pic of raylann I want to compare!


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## Sabine (Jan 17, 2009)

There is one in my most recent blog


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## irishbunny (Jan 17, 2009)

She's a lovely rabbit, where did you buy her? Her ears seem to be a bit too long, they should be more cat like.


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## irishbunny (Jan 17, 2009)

Like these


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## Sabine (Jan 17, 2009)

You may want to start a new thread if you want to know more about colour and features so that new people come onto it.


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## paul2641 (Jan 17, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> She's a lovely rabbit, where did you buy her? Her ears seem to be a bit too long, they should be more cat like.


God I can't win when it comes to ears LOL! I got her in petmania! they get in some nice rabbits, They were supposed to be getting 6 rabbits in the day I got Savannah but I was like I won't get much better then Savannah. Plus I had my eye on Savannah for a few weeks. And the person in the petmania wasn't certain were they lionheads or not.


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## Sabine (Jan 17, 2009)

In pictures on her own her ears look big in comparison to Suki they look small. Best to post it in the rabbitry section. Also a big mane may make ears appear smaller


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## Numbat (Jan 17, 2009)

Savannah is one cute bun! But I don't think showable (not that I'm an expert). She'll be a great pet though!


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## paul2641 (Jan 17, 2009)

*Sabine wrote: *


> In pictures on her own her ears look big in comparison to Suki they look small. Best to post it in the rabbitry section. Also a big mane may make ears appear smaller


You mean Sukura, I know all the girls beginning with 'S' is confusing but I think of it as a nice twist.


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## Sabine (Jan 17, 2009)

Ha ha now it happened to me too:biggrin2:


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## paul2641 (Jan 17, 2009)

I had waited a few weeks to see was there any better quality rabbits then Savannah but there was none so she had to be added to my lionhead rabbit collection.


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## irishbunny (Jan 17, 2009)

Was it the PetMania in the Jetland shopping centre?


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## paul2641 (Jan 17, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> Was it the PetMania in the Jetland shopping centre?


Yeah the petmania next to Jetland, I got sukura in the other one before mazi zoo. As of late all the nice rabbits are going to the petmanias I haven't seen any nice rabbits in paws and claws.


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## irishbunny (Jan 17, 2009)

By nice do you mean like cute?


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## paul2641 (Jan 17, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> By nice do you mean like cute?


Cute in one way but they Are all run down looking. Rogers brother podge got like that, I really wish I had bought podge. I decided I was going to get him and I had walked up there with the money and what did I find He was gone. I debated on getting him from the day I got roger witch was like over 2 months and I just felt really upset that I didn't get that little guy, Now when I see a rabbit I'm crazy about I only think about for a week or buy on the spot. But now that I have four I can't see myself getting any more till I go to England. Like There was this one lionlop in paws and claws and it was just huddled in the corner for ages, I felt sorry for the little fella. He only had helicopter ears and there was next to no mane.


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## irishbunny (Jan 17, 2009)

Ya I don't think you should get anymore either, your poor mother will go crazy with the smell in the house. I was in Pet Mania last week and I saw a black lionhead that was possibly Savanah but I don't think it had grey under it like she does.


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## paul2641 (Jan 17, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> Ya I don't think you should get anymore either, your poor mother will go crazy with the smell in the house. I was in Pet Mania last weekand I saw a black lionhead that was possibly Savanah but I don't think it had grey under it like she does.


It prob was Savannah as she has been the only lionhead in there since before christmas. She doesn't have grey under body but for some reason the camera and lighting have made her look so. What did you think of her when you were in the petmania?


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## irishbunny (Jan 17, 2009)

I thought she was cute, if it's the same rabbit then I would doubt she is show quality, she doesn't have the build. There were lot's of cute rabbits when I was there other then her too.


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## TinysMom (Jan 17, 2009)

First - a warning. This is what I've been doing for the last few minutes after reading this thread...

:banghead:banghead:banghead:banghead:banghead:banghead

Now that I have a headache - I'm doing this

:caffeine

so I can have some sugar and cream inside me - along with the caffeine - and maybe type clearly.

Right now - I'm FURIOUS with this thread and with several things that have happened in it. Its been happening a lot lately - and it has been happening to Paul.

Paul comes into the rabbitry and posts a question - and suddenly - NON-BREEDERS follow him in and proceed to make judgments about why he should/shouldn't do something or how he's done something wrong or all sorts of other stuff.

Personally - as a forum member - as a senior moderator - and as a rabbitry moderator - I'M FED UP with this. This has to end and I want it to end now.

I'm also not saying it just because of Paul - as if he is the only one I want us to encourage or whatever. Sometimes (like now) - I may disagree with Paul's decision and what he's done.

But let's face it - when a rabbit has been bred - or a new rabbit has been added to the herd - you can't go backwards is time and change things. Its like putting the cart in front of the horse and expecting to get somewhere.

While this is my personal opinion -and just to make sure folks understand...

:soapbox

*THE ONLY JUDGING THAT SHOULD GO ON IN THE RABBITRY AREA IS IF A RABBIT IS SHOW QUALITY OR WHAT BREED A RABBIT IS.

*I am so sick of what is happening in the rabbitry - and it isn't just with Paul - it is with others - but opening up this thread and seeing this has made me stop waffling about saying something - and its made me speak up.

Now - here is my take on things - as they are right now....


If you know a member has done something bad in the past - please don't use that to "attack" them when you're feeling defensive. It does nothing to help the situation - and it makes things so a mod feels like they have to step in. I've been seeing this a lot latey - and to be honest - at times I've been guilty of it also. 
Remember that this is the RABBITRY area - where breeders help each other. Sure - non breeders are welcome to help identify bunnies - and for other great discussions. We've had some awesome discussions in the past when non-breeders had questions, etc. However - if someone is posting here - the odds are good they are wanting the opinion and advice of a breeder. They're not wanting to hear, "You shouldn't have another rabbit.." or "Why did you do that?" 
Now if someone posts something like, "I'm thinking of breeding..." - and they haven't bred yet...sure ... go ahead and share. Or if they say, "I'm thinking of getting this rabbit.." sure....maybe they want input in the decision. But if someone has already bred - or already purchased a rabbit...they didn't want your input - and the deal is done. Move on....
:caffeine

Ah...I love the affects of coffee.

Now - to comment on what Paul was asking about in this thread....


Paul - I can't see the pictures very well because they are too big for my screen. It helps (if you use photobucket) if you have the settings at "large" which is something like 640 X 480 pixels (or something like that??). That makes the picture a good size - but not so large that it stretches out and is hard to see on smaller screens.
I want to share my thoughts on 16 rabbits....and please understand Paul - I've been there. 
Everyone has a maximum amount of rabbits they can handle - I call it the "X" factor. At this level - they have the maximum number of rabbits and the maximum amount of enjoyment. Add more rabbits and the fun goes down. The problem? Most people find that X factor when they have X+1 or X+5 or even X+2. 
There are different seasons in our lives when we can handle more rabbits. I used to stay at home fulltime - and I was able to care for more rabbits than I can now that I work part-time outside of the home. 

I say all this to say that I personally think - based upon my experience - that 16 rabbits is too much for you. Why? For one thing - you have school. Also, you are young - and I'm not knocking you for being young...but someday you're going to want to do something else - be in a play - or be in a choir/band - possibly play a sport - or maybe work part-time after school. Your amount of time will drop and you will have a commitment to a large number of rabbits. Or...you may want to date - but find you don't have much money because the rabbits ate your life and your wallet. I would encourage you to stick with the ones you have right now - then when/if you go to England only bring back one pair or a trio....or if you're wanting to breed more than one breed - bring back two pairs at most. Then - give yourself a year to work with them.....see how it goes.
I would separate Savannah from your other doe (I know you've said you would - but I want to explain why). Savannah is fairly young now and so she may allow the other doe to be dominant. However, as she outgrows the babyhood stage and becomes more comfortable living there - she may want to be dominant and it could cause fights when you're not around. This is why I would separate them - particularly if you're going to be breeding them as I'm sure they won't want to share a cage with each other when they have a litter although I have seen it done and heard of it being done.
Finally - CONGRATULATIONS on Savannah....would I have added her? Probably not...especially if you were going to England to get more bunnies from a quality breeder.

:rant:

Finally - I want to add one last thing. I would say I'm sorry that I've offended folks - but the fact is - I'm concerned that this jumping on people may keep newer (and even older) members away from the rabbitry and the help they need here. They may feel like they too may be judged...

I've been judged many times - I don't like the feeling and I tend to get over-protective of people that I feel are being judged.

I didn't mean to imply that non-breeders can't post here - just - before you post here - ask yourself if it is something that really applies to the topic (like welcome my new bunny or what breed is this bunny) or if it is just sounding off because you don't care for a person.

Remember - if you really don't like a person and the choices they make - there is always the "ignore" button....


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## Happi Bun (Jan 18, 2009)

Congrats!! 

I have done research on the lionhead standards so I have some idea of what to look for. It would be *wonderful *if you could get some better picks and try to get her to a show pose. 

Here is info on posing a lionhead, it helps to critique your buns build to see if they meet the show standard. 

http://lionheadrabbit.net/LHposing.htm


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## irishlops (Jan 18, 2009)

i agree.

sorry paul...


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## Numbat (Jan 18, 2009)

Aaohh!:X I typed up a nice post before but lost it! Did Rabbits Online have a temporary failure or something or is it just my comp? Groan, how annoying! I guess I'll have to start again! It won't be nearly as good as the old one though. Sigh 

Start with a smiley, they rock and I think are very encouraging :biggrin2:
Hiya! Sorry, I hope I haven't caused any offense! I agree that there have been too many attacks and I just wanted to share my congratulations with Paul but also my concerns about too many rabbits. Just trying to help 

All your buns are awesome Paul but I don't think showable (as I keep saying though, I'm no expert! Just trying to help ). If you want showable rabbits, you're better off going to a trusted breeder and getting purebreds. Once again, Welcome Savannah! Hope you enjoy your new home! 

Btw, just out of curiousity, who started this forum?

:biggrin2: Numbat


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## paul2641 (Jan 18, 2009)

Thanks people for the support! Oh And I think pipp started the forum?


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## Flashy (Jan 18, 2009)

It doesn't matter.


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## irishbunny (Jan 18, 2009)

Ok but I do think people should know when buying a rabbit wasn't very logical, anyways, sorry Paul, Savannah welcome!


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## Peek-a-boo (Jan 18, 2009)

I just want to say congrats to the new addition shes gorgeous! 

ive posted on rabbit forums for the last 3 years and ive found if a topic annoys/offends youjust click back and dont read it again and if you do post let it be advice etc. ive learnt that were not all perfect at all and i feel Paul is still in the learning stages of rabbit care(we've all been there) so rather jump and shout give advice that is going to help rather then offend i see alot of jumping on people can be seen as bullying especially when everyone gangs up together. 

my advice paul is basically i agree with Tinysmom startwith a pair/trio breeding rabbitsbefore adding more i understand that were all different from what we can cope with pet wise, i got extremely depressed when i had a large amount of rabbits when i was 16 and most ended up being neglected because i didnt have time for them and also (this is going to sound awful) i used to be ashamed when i met a lad and explaining to him i had 8 rabbits! believe me most of them ran a mile! 

but all in all good luck


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## paul2641 (Jan 18, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> It doesn't matter.



Whatdid you sayin the first place? 

Thanks everyone for the support.


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## irishbunny (Jan 18, 2009)

I don't think anyone thinks you should have bought the rabbit but I guess what's done is done. She is cute though, not show quality like you would have wanted but I suppose it doesn't really matter anyway lol, since her and her possible babies will get the same quality homes as a mixed rabbit would. Her and Sukura are like twins as far as I can see in the picture, are they from the same petshop?


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## paul2641 (Jan 18, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> I don't think anyone thinks you should have bought the rabbit but I guess what's done is done. She is cute though, not show quality like you would have wanted but I suppose it doesn't really matter anyway lol, since her and her possible babies will get the same quality homes as a mixed rabbit would. Her and Sukura are like twins as far as I can see in the picture, are they from the same petshop?


There both from petmanias but they don't come from the same petmanias. Also when you see them in real life you can see massive difference between them.


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## irishbunny (Jan 18, 2009)

If it is the same bunny I saw then she's kind of a big bunny? Does she lie down on her side alot, because when I possibly saw her she was lying down the whole time? P.S. Was the African Grey parrot still there? for 1,500? He was so cute and kept wolf whistling at me


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## paul2641 (Jan 18, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> If it is the same bunny I saw then she's kind of a big bunny? Does she lie down on her side alot, because when I possibly saw her she was lying down the whole time? P.S. Was the African Grey parrot still there? for 1,500? He was so cute and kept wolf whistling at me


Yup she is always laying on her side lol, she is also quiet fat. Yup the African Grey was still there.


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## irishbunny (Jan 18, 2009)

Probably was her then, the African Grey is cute.


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## polly (Jan 18, 2009)

She is a lovely rabbit Paul but as a pet. She loses out on mane and if she doesn't have it at a young age generally she won't have it when she is older.

If you seriosuly want to breed then you are going to have to have a long hard think about this.

1)You are not going to get good quality rabbits in Ireland breeders are not breeding to a standard and are cros breeding.

2) As Peg said you are young are you setting up do this long term because you still have a lot of living to do and dating etc and if its going to frustrate you then its possibly not the right time.

3) there really is no point getting rabbits from pet shops. even if you were in this country pet shops only ever have rabbits that are either cross breeds or not classed as a good example of the breed. 

4) if you are going to go to England to a breeder to get rabbits and you are definately sure thsi is what you want to do. Then you are going to have to get a breeding set up before you get the rabbits. This would either be outside in the fresh air or in a shed. It would need to be set up with enough hutches to have 1 for each rabbit and spare ones for babies that are getting weaned. also other spare hutches for if your babies get to 12 weeks and have not found homes they need a hutch each.

Now have a think on what that plus getting the rabbits and the travelling will cost. Be realistic. If you are determined to breed the rabbits you have then fine the above No. 4 still applies.



I can easily tell you that I have spent over Â£2000 to get my sheds the hutches for inside them the stock the travelling I have done to get said stock. right now the euro is about 1 for 1 on teh pound I think so thats over 2000 euro then add on all your feed and beddingwhich ok doesnt cost much for 4 bunnies but costs an awful lot more the more you have! then add on money for vets etc.


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## paul2641 (Jan 18, 2009)

People I just found out mam had told be to get another lionhead because her friend from work wanted one so If the friend really wants the lionhead I will have to give her Savannah. :X:grumpy:So I might only have a week or so with her! But then if she doesn't like her then I will get to keep her. WHAT DO I DO?

That's why mam told me not to buy another hutch, It is the person were getting the cage off mam thought Imight need it when I start breeding, and a cage costs more then a rabbit.


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## irishbunny (Jan 18, 2009)

Tell your mam that it's unfair, tell her you didn't know that that was her plan and that you have become attached to Savannah and don't want to give her up and see what she says then. Are you going to get payed for Savannah by this lady?


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## paul2641 (Jan 18, 2009)

Grace are payment is this cageand this cage won't even help because it's an inside cage and I'm moving them outside. Mam did promiss the lady and I really like her so I don't think I will let her down. I will just injoy the few days I have left with Savannah but we don't know she might not want the rabbit once she sees Savannah.


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## Sabine (Jan 18, 2009)

Why would the lady give you a cage if she actually wants your rabbit??? And why won't she go out and buy one herself. It's not as if there's a lack of pet lionheads around.


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## paul2641 (Jan 18, 2009)

*Sabine wrote: *


> Why would the lady give you a cage if she actually wants your rabbit??? And why won't she go out and buy one herself. It's not as if there's a lack of pet lionheads around.


I should have explained better, The cage is a bit weather worn Since she is getting a new rabbit she wants a new cage to go along with it. Oh and I can't tell you why she wants one of mine, But the thing is mam told her before I got Savannah I would Find one for the friend. So I did and she now wants it, bummer.


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## Sabine (Jan 18, 2009)

If you're intend on keeping Savannah you can always find her another rabbit. Strange for your mum not to tell you beforehand...


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## irishbunny (Jan 18, 2009)

Aw I'm sorry, your mam should have let you know what her plan was from day one so at least you would know not to get too attached or name the rabbit. How come she's giving you the cage if she's taking the rabbit? I'd take the cage anyway because it might be handy if you have to quaritine a sick rabbit inside or for kits or something, it will probably come in handy.


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## polly (Jan 18, 2009)

I think its probably the best thing at the moment. Really you would be better to get all your set up sorted first before getting any more buns


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## paul2641 (Jan 18, 2009)

Well I will get to see savannah from time to time because I live close enough to the woman taking her. Also I don't even no for certain if she will take her. Once I explain the full caring needed for a rabbit she might soon go off taking her! Plus if she is content on taking Savannah least I can pass on basic but important care details.


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## irishbunny (Jan 18, 2009)

*polly wrote: *


> I think its probably the best thing at the moment. Really you would be better to get all your set up sorted first before getting any more buns



:yeahthat:

Wait until you have them moved outside and stuff, having loads of un-fixed rabbits in your house is going to get *very *stinky! I remember I had my two males inside and the smell was chronic, even though I cleaned them out everyday they still stank and they stained the walls and doors with spray, I couldn't take it anymore so that's when I moved them out.


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## paul2641 (Jan 18, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> *polly wrote: *
> 
> 
> > I think its probably the best thing at the moment. Really you would be better to get all your set up sorted first before getting any more buns
> ...



They are pretty stinky.I will update soon if Savannah has her new home.


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## paul2641 (Jan 18, 2009)

I really have to think it through, Do people think I should just give Savannah to my mams friend or find her another one? I just saw the cutest thing they were lieing next to each other all snug lol!!


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## polly (Jan 18, 2009)

Please remember that she is not sexually active yet and this can change in a heartbeat it is not funny if 2 rabbits fall out and decide to fight! You already need to spay/ neuter your other rabbits.


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## Flashy (Jan 18, 2009)

Maybe you could invite the lady to join this forum, that way if you had to give her up you would know the lady could learn a lot and give her a good life, and also possibly you might get to see pictures of her and stuff.


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## Sabine (Jan 18, 2009)

*paul2641 wrote: *


> I really have to think it through, Do people think I should just give Savannah to my mams friend or find her another one? I just saw the cutest thing they were lieing next to each other all snug lol!!


Yes they are adorable as babies but as Polly said it may not last. You will have to be prepared to keep them seperate and invest in two spays if you want to give them the chance to rebond again.


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## irishbunny (Jan 18, 2009)

*polly wrote: *


> Please remember that she is not sexually active yet and this can change in a heartbeat it is not funny if 2 rabbits fall out and decide to fight! You already need to spay/ neuter your other rabbits.


Really take in this piece of advice because I've been there when I didn't know that they would fight when mature, I had two males living together and they were all snuggly and happy and then one day they just turned on eachother and there was fur flying everywhere, I was just lucky they didn't kill/injure eachother but it does and can happen.


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## paul2641 (Jan 18, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> *polly wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Please remember that she is not sexually active yet and this can change in a heartbeat it is not funny if 2 rabbits fall out and decide to fight! You already need to spay/ neuter your other rabbits.
> ...


Well I'm getting that cage off the woman who is taking Savannah.


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## Numbat (Jan 18, 2009)

*paul2641 wrote: *


> I really have to think it through, Do people think I should just give Savannah to my mams friend or find her another one? I just saw the cutest thing they were lieing next to each other all snug lol!!


How attached have you grown to Savannah already? If you know she is going to a good home and you'll be seeing her sometimes, maybe you should give her to your mams friend if she wants her. But if you can't bear to see her in the hands of someone else, try to persuade your mams friend to go for another rabbit. It wasn't very fair that your mam didn't tell you what was happening earlier so you didn't become attached to Savannah. Keep us updated!


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## Numbat (Jan 18, 2009)

*paul2641 wrote: *


> I really have to think it through, Do people think I should just give Savannah to my mams friend or find her another one? I just saw the cutest thing they were lieing next to each other all snug lol!!


sorry, double post!


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## paul2641 (Jan 18, 2009)

*Numbat wrote: *


> *paul2641 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > I really have to think it through, Do people think I should just give Savannah to my mams friend or find her another one? I just saw the cutest thing they were lieing next to each other all snug lol!!
> ...


I'm attached but not greatly, See mam wasn't really letting me play with Savannah so I couldn't get attached at all. But mam said even if her friend decides to back out I have to sell Savannah. That's why I wasn't allowed near her.


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## irishbunny (Jan 18, 2009)

How come you have to sell her if she won't take her?


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## paul2641 (Jan 18, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> How come you have to sell her if she won't take her?


Well mam said she doesn't want another rabbit till the summer. But If it falls through I say I can persuade her to let me keep Savannah.


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## irishbunny (Jan 18, 2009)

I wouldagree withyour mam, having that many rabbits inside is going to take up alot of room not to mention the cleaning and smell that comes along with unfixed rabbits.


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## Sabine (Jan 18, 2009)

*paul2641 wrote: *


> *irishbunny wrote: *
> 
> 
> > How come you have to sell her if she won't take her?
> ...


If your mum doesn't want another rabbit in the house (and I can see why) you should respect that. After all it would be her having to end up paying for medical expenses and the spay etc.... and also clean up the mess the rabbits leave around the house


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## Numbat (Jan 18, 2009)

I don't think it's fair at all that she let you get Savannah and now you have to give her away! I can definitely see why your mum doesn't want another rabbit but she should have _told_ you you couldn't keep Savannah when you bought her! Ah well, just make sure Savannah goes to the right home! Bye Savannah! Good luck!


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## BlueGiants (Jan 19, 2009)

I know it's going to be tough Paul, but I think you have to respect what your Mom wants you to do. It's tough having all the rabbits in the house. Maybe she is feeling overwhelmed with the cost of feeding and caring for them? You will have to show her how mature you are in handling this. 

Have patience. If Savannah goes to a new home, it will give you and your mom time to discuss what you want and how you can accomplish it. Polly is right, if you want to be a serious breeder and work on improving the breed, you shouldn't be buying pet store bunnies. Anyone can breed mutts (mixed breeds). A serious, dedicated breeder will try to start out with the best rabbits he can find. Talk to and listen to other breeders advice. And set a goal and work towards it.

It may not be easy, especially from everything you've said about getting good rabbits over your way... but persistance and dedication will pay off in the long run.


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## paul2641 (Jan 19, 2009)

Omg mams friend saw Savannah today,and turned around saying "I don't want her", mam is really annoyed and she still wants to sell Savannah, But I don't want her going to a pet shop. So I will have to find someone to buy her someone responsable. But please people don't blame my mam because, mams friend begged mam to get the rabbit and just said "I don't want her".


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## BlueGiants (Jan 19, 2009)

No one is blaming your mom! People can be so fickle! We have all seen people do that... "I want it..." and then "No I don't".... 

Don't be upset. Now you and your mom have the opportunity to place her in a nice home. You can look for someone who will really be interested in her and take good care of her.

Sorry it did not work out as planned. But it's not your fault. Handle Savannah more now to get her ready for a new home. You want her as used to people as possible. You can tell your mom it's part of her training. That way, when she does go to another home, you can tell them exactly how she is and what she likes.


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## irishbunny (Jan 19, 2009)

Got your PM, I'll see what I can do but unfortuantely I don't have a spare cage


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## irishbunny (Jan 19, 2009)

Just to add, I can think of alot of ways she would get an excellent home but all of them involve handing her over for free. You could hand her into LAW Limerick Animal Welfare, they have a great place for rabbits with a large enclosure that they keep rabbits in, it's lovely, they also find excellent homes for them and spay/neuteur them before rehoming, they are very nice people.

I could post her up on some of the Irish animal welfare sites I'm on for you where the people are very passionate about animals and many of them work with rescues/shelters, she would get a great home with someone there, but you aren't aloud to sell animals on the site.

If there is anyway you can give her away for free then I can help, since I don't think I can buy/take her myself without a cage, other then that you'll just have to try and advertise her, try the buy and sell, maybe stick up adds in supermarkets, but when doing that you need to be very careful about who trys to buy her off you.


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## paul2641 (Jan 19, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> Just to add, I can think of alot of ways she would get an excellent home but all of them involve handing her over for free. You could hand her into LAW Limerick Animal Welfare, they have a great place for rabbits with a large enclosure that they keep rabbits in, it's lovely, they also find excellent homes for them and spay/neuteur them before rehoming, they are very nice people.
> 
> I could post her up on some of the Irish animal welfare sites I'm on for you where the people are very passionate about animals and many of them work with rescues/shelters, she would get a great home with someone there, but you aren't aloud to sell animals on the site.
> 
> If there is anyway you can give her away for free then I can help, since I don't think I can buy/take her myself without a cage, other then that you'll just have to try and advertise her, try the buy and sell, maybe stick up adds in supermarkets, but when doing that you need to be very careful about who trys to buy her off you.


The thing is it's my mams money and she wants it back. If you can't take her I'll convince mam to let me keep her.


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## Sabine (Jan 19, 2009)

Would you consider rehoming Suki?


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## paul2641 (Jan 19, 2009)

*Sabine wrote: *


> Would you consider rehoming Suki?


Why do you want her? I can't believe I'm saying this but she is my heart bunny. I can't put a price on her and she was dearer then â¬35.


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## irishbunny (Jan 19, 2009)

Could you maybe keep Savannah since your mother payed for her and rehome Suki like Sabine said? Or have things gotten better with you and Suki now?


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## paul2641 (Jan 19, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> Could you maybe keep Savannah since your mother payed for her and rehome Suki like Sabine said? Or have things gotten better with you and Suki now?


She is my heart bunny!! I can't. Mam had it ready for it to be an easy give up of Savannah but I really got close to her when she had the kits.


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## irishbunny (Jan 19, 2009)

If things have gotten better for you and Suki then you should keep her, let me know if your mam really won't let you keep Savannah and I'll try help.


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## Numbat (Jan 19, 2009)

:X How can anyone not want a bunny like Savannah? And she told you she wanted her and turned around and said don't want her anymore. At least you can find Savannah a really good home now. Great that Suki is going well


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## paul2641 (Jan 19, 2009)

*Numbat wrote: *


> :X How can anyone not want a bunny like Savannah? And she told you she wanted her and turned around and said don't want her anymore. At least you can find Savannah a really good home now. Great that Suki is going well


I know I was like what?? Oh and I had Suki out today petting her hehe.


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## irishbunny (Jan 19, 2009)

*paul2641 wrote: *


> *Numbat wrote: *
> 
> 
> > :X How can anyone not want a bunny like Savannah? And she told you she wanted her and turned around and said don't want her anymore. At least you can find Savannah a really good home now. Great that Suki is going well
> ...



That's good you had Suki out, My Princess is a terror in her cage and would eat you alive if you touch anything that's hers, toys, bowls, food, hay anything! Outside her cage she's a big softy and would sit there licking me for ages then starts nussling my hand up onto her head for a massage. I was upset when she started but you get over it and learn to deal with it and not take it personally, they are just doing what they would do in the wild.

Alot of does go ''funny'' wants they hit the age, Princess will growl at a chicken if it looks in her cage while she's eating lol. Has your mam said anything else about Savannah?


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## Sabine (Jan 19, 2009)

By the way if your mum sent you out to buy a bunny for some other person shouldn't it be also up to her to find a new home for savannah if she doesn't want to keep her. if it wasn't you who bought her with your money why is she making the selling of her your problem?


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## paul2641 (Jan 20, 2009)

Sabine wrote:


> By the way if your mum sent you out to buy a bunny for some other person shouldn't it be also up to her to find a new home for savannah if she doesn't want to keep her. if it wasn't you who bought her with your money why is she making the selling of her your problem?


Mam just wants to sell Savannah to a petshop, looks like the petshop is were Savannah is going


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## paul2641 (Jan 20, 2009)

irishbunny wrote:


> *paul2641 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *Numbat wrote: *
> ...


Yeah Suki is much more lovable now, She still goes for you but I haven't been bitten in ages.


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## Peek-a-boo (Jan 20, 2009)

i dont quite understand why is savannah going back to the petshop? why would your mum let you buy her just to tell you you cant keep her? sorry ive probably missed out a post or something explaining.


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## paul2641 (Jan 20, 2009)

*Peek-a-boo wrote: *


> i dont quite understand why is savannah going back to the petshop? why would your mum let you buy her just to tell you you cant keep her? sorry ive probably missed out a post or something explaining.


Because Savannah was meant for her friend who didn't want her after we got her.


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## penguinsrxcore (Mar 29, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> Like these




How CUTE!! This looks like my Pepper and Tai. (Pepper being seal point and Tai being tort.) How funny!!


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## penguinsrxcore (Mar 29, 2009)

*paul2641 wrote: *


> *irishbunny wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Ya I don't think you should get anymore either, your poor mother will go crazy with the smell in the house. I was in Pet Mania last weekand I saw a black lionhead that was possibly Savanah but I don't think it had grey under it like she does.
> ...


I don't really see Lionhead when I look at her. She looks more dutch/angora or dutch/lionhead maybe... just the ears and body shape/face shape throw off the lionhead look...


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## Luvr of Wabbits and Polar Bears (Mar 29, 2009)

Where is Savannah now? She's not listed as one of your bunny's anymore.


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## Numbat (Mar 29, 2009)

Neither are Roger or Sukura. Hopefully they've gone to good homes.


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## DeniseJP (Mar 30, 2009)

Pictures, please!

Denise


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## bunnybunbunb (Mar 31, 2009)

Seems like paul2641 is ignoring the topic  I believe I have saw him posting in other places the last day or so.


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## Luvr of Wabbits and Polar Bears (Mar 31, 2009)

I was told by another member that Savannah was sold to someone. So I'm guessing the same thing happened to Sukura and Roger


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## paul2641 (Mar 31, 2009)

Sukura and Savannah have been rehomed with a Family in Cork, Roger is with a farmer in Portloise who used to raise rabbits.


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## Happi Bun (Mar 31, 2009)

Thanks for letting us know, Paul.


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## irishbunny (Apr 7, 2009)

I don't get why you sold three and bought more?


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## BellTowerAngoras (Apr 20, 2009)

I'm sorry this was all so pointless, why did you go get more rabbits after selling those 3?

anic:

Poor rabbits, are you going to actually keep them :/


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