# OMG Ginger has died!!



## Bunny Mum (Jan 16, 2010)

Our doe (dwarflop)who gave birth yesterday to 6 healthy kits has died over night. We are devastated.How did this happen she seemed well yesterday no bleeding was eating,drinking? How do we keep the kits alive?? I am so sad.........


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## Rattiemattiesrattery (Jan 16, 2010)

OMG I am so sorry to hear this!
:tears2:

Well I am not an expert or anything but I would make sure the babies stay in the nest so they stay warm, and get some KMR *kitten Replacer Milk* and try to make sure the babies stay well fed and warm and clean, and to make sure and wipe their lil tushies to stimulate peeing and pooping.

In the mean time, you may want to see if there is another mum somewhere that can take the babies in, to rear as bun raising is rather difficult sometimes.

Good luck!


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## Pipp (Jan 16, 2010)

I'm moving this to the Rabbitry. 

So sorry.  



sas :tears2:


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## Bunny Mum (Jan 16, 2010)

Thank you all advice is very welcome. I wonder what the success rate is for hand rearing? How many times a day do i feed them. Oh boy this is daunting but even if I can save one !:tears2:


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## Pipp (Jan 16, 2010)

I'll wait for Randy to tell you the best formula to use -- that's the tricky part -- but they only should get it I think twice a day at most. 

sas :clover:

PS: I don't think the kitten formula is the best one, so hold off on that and hang tough for a few minutes.


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## Rattiemattiesrattery (Jan 16, 2010)

I tend to over feed my hand reared animals :embarrassed:

But I would say check on them every two hours at least, and make sure they are warm *maybe place a heating pad over/under half the nest to ensure warmth,* and clean them, try to feed them just a lil bit then too.

Me personally I offer food to new babies every hour until they are older when I start to move to every hour and a half, then every 2 and so on.

I know alot of people that have a high success rate, others not so well. 

Yeah I have heard people saying Kitten replacer milk until another formula can be used, as the puppy is bad.

I usually make my own formula, of Goats milk, Egg yolks *or is it whites...*, Corn syrup, Yogurt and something else I can't remember off the top of my head.


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## Pipp (Jan 16, 2010)

Here's an older post from Randy...

ra7751 wrote:


> WARNING: ESBILLAC PUPPY POWDER SHOULD BE AVOIDED AT THIS TIME. The latest batches of powder can be deadly.
> 
> Pet-Ag has made a change in the way they produce their formula which has resulted in some major problems both with the nutrition level and with the high levels of copper (a heavy metal). It causes "blow out diarrhea" and death. We have lost more wildlife this year due to formula problems than we ever have. KMR or Goat's Milk does not contain proper nutrition. The formula we use for cottontails is Fox Valley 32/40 http://www.foxvalleynutrition.com It can be mixed with Fox Valley's Ultra Boost Powder to make a suitably nutritional formula. We also use Bene Bac (a probiotic) as well as BioSponge....this helps manage any bacterial toxins during the GI conversions at wean.
> 
> ...


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## aurora369 (Jan 16, 2010)

At first while you are sorting out the best formula to feed, you can feed plain unflavoured pedialyte to keep them hydrated. Keeping them hydrated is most important right now. Babies must be well hydrated before they can digest food.

Tinysmom has a formula recipe that she is using to supplement her flemish giant litters due to the death of one mother. I can't find it so hopefully she'll see this thread and post it for you.

-Dawn


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## TinysMom (Jan 16, 2010)

I have been successfully been "supplementing" my babies with this formula recommended by Dana Krempels - but I don't know if you can get it over there.

Feeding the Babies Formula and feeding supplies You will need: 
[*] plastic sterilizing steam bag (available at most pharmacies, these are used by women to disinfect breast pumps and other nursing materials) [*] very small nursing nipples
There are many different types, and unfortunately few pet supply stores carry the smallest nipples that are best for baby rabbits. If your local pet supply store doesn't carry nipples suitable for baby squirrels and rabbits, then the ones for kittens are the next best thing.
 [*] nursing bottle or syringes 
The type of bottle or syringe you buy will depend on the nipples available in your store. They usually are paired. A variety of feeding supplies are available online from The Squirrel Store. Order them while you use the kitten supplies locally available, and you'll have better nipples and syringes in a few days.
 [*] Formula recipe
 fresh, whole goat milk - 1/2 cup
 KMR (Kitten Milk Replacer by PetAg) - 1/2 cup
 lyophilized (freeze dried) colostrum - contents of 10 capsules, or 1-1.5 Tablespoons
 This is available at most high-quality health food stores, either in bulk powder form, or in capsules. It's expensive, but will give the babies their best head start.

 heavy cream - 3 cc (a cc is the same as one ml, or milliliter), equal to about 1/2 teaspoon

 Mix ingredients together in a lidded container, and shake very well until colostrum is dissolved. It's best to mix this a few hours in advance so that the colostrum has time to soften and suspend easily.
Heat the formula to about 105[sup]o[/sup] Farenheit (you can gauge this with a common, quick-read plastic rectal thermometer (unused, or fully sterilized!) from any pharmacy.) and keep it warm in a water bath while you feed the babies. They are generally more eager to accept warm formula.


I went to the feed store and bought powdered goat milk - along with the powdered kitten milk and the powdered colostrum.

I've been using a 1 cc syringe a lot - Cyrano has graduated to a 3 cc syringe and may move onto the bottle tonight or tomorrow.

I had to do this because I had two litters - with a total of 17 babies - but one mama's milk did not come in.

We're down to 12 babies now - but I'm still supplementing the smaller ones.

MAKE SURE TO VISIT THIS link.


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## Erins Rabbits (Jan 17, 2010)

Hands down, the best thing to do is try to find a breeder in your area with about the same age kits and get them to foster. You won't have much success hand raising kits, the fatality rate for orphaned newborn rabbits is VERY high.


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## Bunny Mum (Jan 17, 2010)

Imade contact with a breeder but no luck have spoken to a vet who advised us on hand rearing them. Have some formula now to start hand feeding wish me luck. Please dont hesitate to add any advice that may help us.


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## Pipp (Jan 17, 2010)

See if anybody on these lists is close enough to you and has any does who have just kindled... 


http://www.petlink.com.au/Classifieds/Small-Animals/Rabbit/

http://onlypets.net/pet-classifieds/rabbits-11.html

http://www.adpost.com/au/?db=au_pet...format=headlines&query=browse&&state=Victoria

http://www.mypets.net.au/clf_prod_list/classifieds/853/rabbits-for-sale.cfm

http://www.hotfrog.com.au/Products/rabbits/VIC

http://www.ockalist.com.au/129/posts/10_Pets-Animals/154_Rabbits-for-Sale-Accessories/

-------

I'm sure there are breeder directories around somewhere, and rescues and pet stores may have information. 

Please let us know if you need help putting out ads or transporting or whatever. 



sas :clover:


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## Pipp (Jan 17, 2010)

What formula did the Vet recommend? Is the Vet experienced with orphaned rabbits? Breeders and wildlife rehabbers are often a better bet seeing as Vets are not taught that in Vet school and they often don't have much experience. I personally trust TinyMom and Randy, they are getting good results. 

But we've had people on this board do everything 'wrong' and the kits make it while others do everything 'right' and they don't; it just seems to be the luck of the draw. 

I hope they make it. You've been such a great caregiver and just had such bad luck in the past, Its really not fair. You deserve some good luck for a change. 

:clover::clover::clover::clover::clover::clover::clover::clover::clover::clover::clover::clover::clover::clover::clover::clover::clover::clover::clover::clover::clover::clover::clover::clover::clover::clover::clover::clover::clover::clover::clover::clover:


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## Pipp (Jan 17, 2010)

You have a commercial breeder not too far from you (in Geelong), they say they have 700 breeding does. They may not do you any favors but maybe they'll sell you a lactating doe. That will count as a rescue of the mom as well as the kits. 

Worth a shot? 

http://www.growtec.com.au/


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## Bunny Mum (Jan 17, 2010)

Di-Vetelact is what breeder and vet recommended. Vets own bunny is due to give birth soon so she will ring me when that happens to see if her doe can play surrogate Mum. 
Yes im feeling a little disillusioned over our bad luck with bunnies. Im not sure if anyone remembers most of my precious bunnies all getting myximatosis(unable to vaccinate for it here)
I think Ginger may have had a heart attack?? Seemed perfectly fine then had what looked like a seizure??? Anyway we will do our best on this side of the world even if 1 out of 6 survives.


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## Pipp (Jan 17, 2010)

Ah, I think that's an Australian formula, I'm sure it will get them through until the vet's bunny gives birth or you find another doe. 

So glad to hear your vet has a bunny! Finding rabbit-savvy vets is such a challenge, especially in Australia, where rabbits seem to be a challenge, period. I remember your Myxi losses, you had taken precautions and still lost them.  


You seem to have it well in hand, but here's an excerpt from a website that talks about raising orphans that mentions Di-vetalact: (You may want to ask your vet about supplementing the formula with something like Nutri-Cal if you have it there, which will provide extra fat and vitamins). 

http://www.practical-pet-care.com/archive.php?2004101819445164

_Hand Raising

If this is not an option either; if for example your doe has died, she is infected with pasturella, or her milk has dried up, you may need to raise the kits yourself. If possible, liase with breeders or rehabillitators in your area for advice on how to care for your newborn(s). They may be able to advise you where best to obtain products required, and explain their own proven methods in hand raising rabbits. 

Firstly, you will need to provide your rabbit with a nest box; a wooden, metal, plastic or cardboard box will do, and provide a hot-water bottle or heat pad at one end, covered by a cotton towel. Make sure there is enough room in the box for the rabbit to move away from the heat source, in case he or she gets too hot. Full rabbit litters require less heat because their bodies, and fur plucked from the doe, generate enough warmth. Other bedding to include could be a thin layer of dust-free shavings, hay and/or straw. Make sure you change the bedding in the box every few days, and remove it after a maximum of 3 weeks; an infection is the last thing you want at this point. Keep the box in a warm, quiet room with little noise or disturbances.

Make sure the formula you are using is recommended, or has at least been successful in hand rearing rabbits. Rabbit milk replacer is by far the best substitute for a doe's milk, but kitten formula is OK if the rabbit stuff is unavailable. Other, low lactose, small animal milk formulas are Ok - I use divetelact. If the formula is deficient in vitamins, particularly vitamin E, you may need to include vitamin supplements with the formula (hand raised bunnies often develop diseases such as floppy bunny syndrome; a lack of vitamin E causing paralysis and loss of muscle control). You could also add Pedialyte (an electrolyte replacer designed for human infants) and a probiotic such as Protexin or Benebac, in with the formula. You should ask your rabbit vet about this first. If the rabbit has gas or diarrhea, mix in a little simethicone (Infacol - 100mg simethicone/kg of rabbit) with the formula too (this will help relieve the pain of gas). I have heard of human baby formula being used for orphaned rabbits but I am sceptical of its healthiness, as rabbits need very little lactose. You should warm the formula before feeding it to your rabbit by placing a bottle of formula into a saucepan of hot water - this way the vitamins will not be destroyed by excessive heat. 

Special teats will have to be obtained from either vets or rehabillitators to be placed over the end of bottles. Kits' mouths are too small to suckle on most teats, so the correct size must be bought. Or, if these teats can't be obtained, a syringe can be used to squirt milk around the mouth, which is then lapped up by the kit (but this is NOT the method of choice. Often, milk will end up all over the kits' mouth and nose, and may enter the lungs causing pneumonia. A pipette, or ear syringe from pharmacists may be more effective). Kits should never be force fed milk or they can drown, choke, or their lungs can collapse. 

Newborn kits should be fed upright, as the doe would stand over them in the nest, and they would need to reach up for a meal. Older kits should be fed more on their backs, (at a slight vertical incline) as this is the natural position they would be in out of the nest, clambering to suckle beneath the doe. 

Feedings should take place at most 3-5 times a day; anymore than this is not recommended. Overfeeding is actually a significant cause of hand-rearing deaths. Kits will only feed for a few minutes, and will turn away when full. After feeding, to simulate the actions of a doe, use a damp cotton bud to wipe the kits' genital region, to stimulate defecation and urination. 

Weigh the rabbit every day to monitor your rabbit's progress. If your rabbit's weight goes down, see a rabbit competent vet immediately. After your rabbit appears to have stabilised, cut back on the formula feedings to once daily. Your rabbit will need the formula until about 6 weeks of age, or possibly earlier if diarrhea develops and a vet advises you to cease with the formula. Between 3-5 weeks be sure to provide hay, water and pellets to nibble on. At about 6 weeks he or she should be fully weaned and you will have passed the most dangerous stage. Be sure not to stress your young rabbit as he or she will no doubt be suceptible to stress, nutrutional, and weaning related illnesses such as floppy bunny syndrome and mucoid enteropathy until about 4 months of age; that means no unnecessary car trips, loud music, over-handling etc._


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## Blaze_Amita (Jan 17, 2010)

Not to rush the other doe or anything, but I hope the vet's doe kindles soon and the mommy will surrogate the babies. it will make things a lot easier on you. I tried hand rearing Nethies and Holland lops before and despite doing everything the vet told me, we lost both litters(two different times, before I joined here) 
Sorry aobut Ginger *Hugz* I'll be watching to see what happens with the little ones .. .


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## Jenson (Jan 17, 2010)

I'm so sorry about Ginger, that is just about the worst thing that could happen! I'm keeping everything crossed that these babies will make it. Hope the surrogate doe works out, if not best of luck with hand rearing.


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## EileenH (Jan 17, 2010)

Can you try to find a wildlife rehabber near you? They won't take these babies as they are domestics, but if they've raised orphaned cottontails they canteach you learn how to feed these; it's our slow season somost rehabbers have time at the moment.


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## DeniseJP (Jan 17, 2010)

Sorry to hear about Ginger - best wishes with your orphaned kits.

I know here my does nurse in the AM and PM... the kits had big round bellies full of milk despite nursing twice a day.

Hope you can find a doe to foster the kits... I worked with a wildlife rehabilitator at the veterinary clinic and the wild baby bunnies were the hardest to get to nurse - I had better luck with the squirrels, raccoons and opposums.

There is an article on the Holland Lop Rabbit Specialty Club website on orphans and spinach babies... I have posted it below in case it might help.

Orphans & Spinach Babies

by Terry Pierce

ORPHANED BUNNIES: Do not over handle babies or try to feed too much too frequently. Try giving a small amount about every 4 hours cutting back to twice a day (morning & night) when they are eating well. You can successfully raise a two week old and will feed It until about 5 weeks when it will start to refuse feedings - at this time you will have water, pellets, & oatmeal for the baby to eat, also possibly a little grass hay or clean straw.

You will need to gently swab the anal area with a warm water soaked cotton ball to stimulate urination and defecation for the first week or two if the baby is very young.

It takes a lot of time and patience. The greatest dangers are aspiration (forcing liquids too fast and causing the bunny to choke or get into its lungs), pneumonia, hypothermia, and diarrhea.

You can use a small bottle from the vet or feed supply house or a baby nursing kit (Linda & David Pett of CA also carry these) which also has instructions and works real well.

Keep the baby in a box with shavings and warm soft material (or even some of the nesting material). Keep it out of drafts. You may want to put a light over the box for extra warmth the first few days. Keep the box size relevant to size and age. Obviously an older bunny needs more room. When my baby out grew its box I put it in a larger box with shavings and cut the front down on its little box and set it in for a bed. Then it graduated to a carrying cage with the dividers removed, feed dishes, and a small "blanket" to lay on. "Sweet Pea" now runs around the house with our Cocker Spaniel, Buffy, and is 8 weeks old. Tender loving care can save that little one, and you will have a fun little friendly bunny.

SPINACH BABIES: Suddenly you have an orphaned bunny to raise; or you have a 3 week old that sits in the back and seems to be wasting away; or you realize a doe's milk is not good while she is still feeding a young litter; or maybe you have a large litter and one or two babies just aren't getting enough to eat. When you can't foster to another doe, what do you do? Baby food spinach to the rescue. Several of us have successfully raised young babies two weeks of age and older by patiently feeding baby food spinach with a syringe (without the needle). Put a drop on the baby's mouth and let it lick it off; another drop and so on. It takes time and patience to feed at first. The baby has to learn to like the spinach and get used to eating it.

You will need to feed several tiny amounts a day the first day or two, then as it eats more at one time you can cut back the frequency until you feed just two times - morning and night. As the sole source of food or drink a lot of us have successfully raised several babies that would have otherwise died into healthy youngsters, with no diarrhea problems. The additional bonus is how sweet the little bunny becomes.

It is messy so have a soft tissue handy to wipe your little green piggy with. It is sure funny to watch the baby beg for its goodies as it gets used to the spinach, and how fast and how much they can eat at a time. If you can get the baby to eat the spinach you can usually save it. So keep a jar of baby food spinach on hand. You never know when you may need it!

ORPHAN MILK FORMULAS

FORMULA 1. Sharon Sprague via Dr. Stephen Kinney:

1 cup milk
3 Egg Yolks
1.25 TBSP Light Corn syrup
1 Drop oral multiple baby vitamin
Pinch of Salt
Place in Blender and Blend. Warm 95 to 100 degrees.


FORMULA 2: Vet Book "Orphan Rabbits, Hares, and Pikas" pg 175

1 Egg Yolk
240 mi Canned Evaporated Milk
240 mi Water
5 mi Honey
5 mi Pediatric Vitamins


FORMULA 3: Vet Book "Orphan Rabbits, Hares, and Pikas" pg 175

120 mi Can Evaporated Milk
120 mi Water
15 mi Karo Syrup (Light)
1 Egg (optional)


This one I used on a 2 week old successfully:

13 oz. can Concentrated Liquid Baby Formula
5 oz. can Evaporated milk
5 oz. Water
1 TBSP Honey
2 Eggs Beaten


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HLRSC Official Guidebook - 5th Edition 2002

Hope that this might be of some help...

Denise


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## Sweetie (Jan 17, 2010)

I am so sorry to hear about Ginger. I hope that all the kits make it. I PMed Randy about this thread so he should be on here soon to help.


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## ra7751 (Jan 17, 2010)

Oh boy...those kits are in trouble. Baby rabbits are the most difficult to hand raise due to their unique digestive system. First....I have looked over this thread and unfortunately many of the "formulas" that are around on the internet are horrible. At no time should a rabbit receive heavy cream, yogurt,Karo Syrup, Evaporated Milk or eggs. Rabbits are lactose intolerant and can't handle dairy products such as mild or cream. Refined sugars such as honey and Karo Syrup are an enemy of a hind gut fermenter. And raw eggs carry salmonella. These are from the "dark ages" when little was truly known about rabbits. If any wildlife rehabber were to use this stuff, I would immediately seek to have their licensed pulled.

You should start by hydrating. Plain water is best. The kits have enough food from their mother to last a day or two. Start introducing formula in a diluted form and increase concentration overa period of several days. You can use Kitten Milk Replacer or Goat's Milk for a few days in order to acclimate the gut to formula. We are currently using a product make specifically for young neonates (particularly cottontails) that is made by Fox Valley Animal Nutrition. The product is called Day One 32/40. We also use a fat booster called Ultra Boost....it is plant fat based. The key to these formulas is they contain supplements like the mother's milk that KMR or Goat's Milk do not. Vitamin D is essential in the absorbing of nutrients and is contained in the Fox Valley formulas.

Formula should be warm to the touch (about 100F). Most rabbits do not have a sucking reflex and are easier to "tube" feed. If you must feed with a syringe, it should have a very small tip. They can aspirate easily (get fluid in their lungs). This results in bacteria pneumonia and is usually fatal. I feed rabbits on their backs. The true "pinkies" are fed 4 times per day at 10% of their body weight or until they have a "jelly belly". The milk line will be easily visible thru the skin....I never fully fill their stomach. Feeding times are cut back as they age. Body temp needs to be maintained at 101-103F. You will need to stimulate them for bathroom functions.

If they survive about 10 days....the next hurdle is the pH conversion as they go into weaning. Domestics are a lot more forgiving during weaning as they wean later and not as violently as cottontails. I use a probiotic like Bene Bac to help support the pH. I have an antibiotic called Metronidazole that is used at the first signs of distress during weaning. And I use a product called BioSponge that will bind the enterotoxins that develop as the gut converts at weaning.

You have a challenge ahead of you....but it's not impossible to pull off. Just don't use the dairy, eggugar products and that will increase the odds of success. Feel free to PM me if you need additional information. Oddly enough, we are presenting a lecture to wildlife rehabbers and veterinary professionals at our near-by vet school in just a couple of weeks...and we just published an article on basically this topic. Good luck.

Randy


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## Sweetie (Jan 18, 2010)

Thank you Randy! Hopefully the kits will make it.

Bunny Mum: how are the kits doing? Randy is a very good rabbit savvy vet. He knows his stuff.


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## DeniseJP (Jan 18, 2010)

Thanks for the proper post Randy... no wonder my young kits never made it when I had a doe reject the litter and no foster mom was available - hoping that I never have to attempt to handrear a litter myself.

Denise


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## aurora369 (Jan 18, 2010)

Just a note regarding Randy. Please note that he is not a vet, nor has he ever claimed to be a vet. He is always very careful to state that his experience is first hand experience gained by working with some of the top exotics vets out there and by his extensive rescue work. Randy could get in big trouble for doling out advice under the pretense that he is a licensed vet when he is not, and that is why is is always very careful to state that his advice is not that of a vet, but from personal experience.

I have personally followed his advice and I trust what he says. But remember that in difficult situations, all options should be discussed with a vet.

That being said, thank you very much for the updated formula advice! I will make sure to link to this thread in the future when others are looking for a formula.

-Dawn


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## Bunny Mum (Jan 18, 2010)

Okay we still have all 6 today they take over an hour to feed all , one is much smaller i worry about it. It is a very slow process and we are very aware of the pnuemonia issue.Thank you everyone for your advice.


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## Bunny Mum (Jan 18, 2010)

P.S will keep you posted


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## Happi Bun (Jan 18, 2010)

Fingers crossed! It's definitely a challenge hand raising kits but not impossible. :goodluck


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## Bunny Mum (Jan 18, 2010)

Have just taken some pictures of my husband feeding the kits but stupid me can't work out how to post them can someone send me a PM


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## Sweetie (Jan 19, 2010)

Good to hear that all 6 babies are still alive. You are doing a good job being surrogate bun mum for these babies.

Just refer back to this thread and Randy's post in this thread if ever you need it. 

If you need him quickly, PM me and I will get a hold of him very quickly!


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## cheryl (Jan 19, 2010)

I'm so sorry that you lost Ginger..what an awful thing to happen

How are the little babies going?


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## Bunny Mum (Jan 19, 2010)

They are all still alive i wish i could post pics. I think they are looking skinny and am panicky but my husband keeps me calm by saying they are still very active, feeding well and are being kept warm. They are 3 days old now. Can Randy advise me on how much milk he thinks we should be feeding in a sitting. We can only manage 3 feeds a day with our work commitments.


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## Bunny Mum (Jan 19, 2010)

I will PM randy re feeding amount, in the meantime can someone PM me so i can post some pics LOL !!


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## Pipp (Jan 19, 2010)

Our software can only allow you to post one pic at a time and not if they're too big, but you can try that method. 

When you hit 'reply' (not the 'quick reply' screen at the bottom), you'll see a box that says 'choose file'. If you click on it, it should show you the photo files on your computer, you just pick on and click ok. 

Or better yet, go to tinypic.com and click on 'choose file' and that will take you to your computer where you probably have the pictures stored. Just pick the one, click 'open', and resize to message board size, then click 'upload'. 

That will take you to 'share this photo', where you select 'IMG Code for Forums and Message Boards'. You just cut and paste that line into your message and when you send the message (or click on 'preview'), we will all see the photo. 

The code will look something like this (without the spaces): 

[IMG ] http : // i46 . tinypic.com /xxxx .gif [ / IMG]

You can cut and paste as many photos as you like into the post. 

Hope this helps! 

Looking forward to some pics!


sas


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## Peek-a-boo (Jan 19, 2010)

good luck at hand rearing hun it can be an emotional process.

I handreared 2 5 day old rescue babies a couple of years ago on diluted goats milk with added pro-biotic one died at 6 weeks and other 8 weeks i get very upset thinking about it now because I feel you bond very closely with the babies when you handrear yourself.

Im praying all survive hun :inlove:


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## Bunny Mum (Jan 19, 2010)

Peek a Boo Oh dear here i am thinking things will be safer and easier after one week obviously it could be weeks and weeks before they are safe.


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## Bunny Mum (Jan 19, 2010)

We lost the litle one over night and another looks like it might not last the day.


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## Pipp (Jan 19, 2010)

Aw, so sorry. 

When is the vet's bunny due? I think it might be worth a call to the Geelong breeder, maybe he's got a doe who lost a litter and would be glad to lend her out. Who knows. 


sas :clover:


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## Sweetie (Jan 19, 2010)

I have text messaged Randy and he should get back to me. From what I have heard it is every 3 to 4 hours for feeding the kits at that age. Do not quote me on that unless someone can verify that.

Also the kits should be getting approx 10% of body weight per feeding. If they weigh 25g they get about 2.5cc per feeding.

They are easily aspirated....if they blow bubbles when they are fed, it's getting into their lungs. That is almost always fatal.

Last two paragraphs are from Randy via text message.


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## Bunny Mum (Jan 19, 2010)

Thanks sweetie i will have to weigh them. No none of them seem to have blown any bubbles we are feeding them every so slowly but im not sure they are getting enough inside them.


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## EileenH (Jan 19, 2010)

2.5 cc's sounds about right. I know, it's very time consuming and difficult. Take your time and do the best you can.

I was on my way out with my last message, but check this list out to see if there are any rehabbers in your area:
http://www.wildlifeinternational.org/EN/public/emergency/rehabresults.cfm?Specialties=Mammals&Country=AU&Prov=&City=&Submit=Search
I'm a wildlife rehabber, and even though I don't do domestic bunnies, (I rehab cottontails), the principles are the same and they might be able to show you techniques and such. I would welcome the opportunity if I lived closer.

Don't forget that the babies have to be stimulated before and after feeding; they won't eat if they haven't peed/pooped. Also, make sure the formulastays warm (I know, easier said than done when it takes 15 minutes to feed each baby..) but if it's cool they probably won't eat it (or will be fussier).

Hang in there..


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## Sweetie (Jan 19, 2010)

I text messages Randy with the info you gave me. Hopefully he will be on here. He may not be available for help tomorrow due to my female rabbit getting spayed tomorrow and he needs to be by his cell phone while Sweetie is getting spayed in case my vet needs his help.


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## cheryl (Jan 20, 2010)

Oh no Trish,i'm so sorry you lost a little baby...how very sad.


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## Bunny Mum (Jan 20, 2010)

Hi everyone its so very hard i dont think we are winning we have lost one but others are looking sad and sorry we have done our best but dont seem to be succeeding. A miracle is needed......


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## Sweetie (Jan 20, 2010)

Just keep doing what you are doing. Also get that other bunny mommy to help. The one who is pregnant with kits. Did she have them yet?


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## Bunny Mum (Jan 21, 2010)

No luck with a surrogate we are down to 4 now another one died whilst feeding this morning


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## Pet_Bunny (Jan 21, 2010)

ray:


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## Pipp (Jan 21, 2010)

Did you try the place with "700 brood does?" If so, what was their reaction? 

Its so tough, so sorry. 


sas :tears2:


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## Bunny Mum (Jan 21, 2010)

Yes went to that link sas looking for a phone number/location for Geel but only NSW contacts. Sent an email no response. Was really hoping Vets preg doe would be our saviour but havent heard back from her and when i went in to see her yesterday someone else was on duty.
Only 2 buns left but we have changed our way of feeding and we can now see they are getting much more milk we still have our fingers crossed for them.


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## TinysMom (Jan 21, 2010)

Sorry - I'm just now checking in on this thread - this information was in the link I provided in my earlier post - which also gave tips on how to feed the babies....

How much to feed?
The following information on feeding quantities are from the House Rabbit Society FAQ on Feeding Orphaned Baby Rabbits, which is an excellent source of additional information on this topic.

# Newborn to One Week: two - two and a half cc/ml each feeding (two feedings per day).

NOTE: Many newborn mammals cannot urinate/defecate on their own. The baby bunnies will require the stimulation of the mother's grooming tongue on their bellies and ano-genital region in order to release a stream of urine and those pinhead-sized poops. Fortunately, you do not have to use your tongue.

Use a cottonball (or even a very clean and disinfected fingertip) moistened with warm water, and gently tap/rub the urogenital area until you feel the baby's abdominal muscles tense and get that rewarding stream of warm pee! (Now you see why we suggest you use a towel on your lap.) Getting a urination response may take 15-20 seconds of stimulation, or even more. Many sources recommend doing this before feeding, and if it works--fine. However, sometimes the stimulus of a full stomach makes this easier. If the baby will not urinate before feeding, try again after feeding, and you will likely get a good response.

Failure to stimulate the babies to urinate/defecate can in the death of the baby (the bladder can actually rupture if it is not stimulated to empty!), so be sure you do this procedure diligently, gently, and patiently! It may take a couple of weeks before the babies are able to urinate and defecate on their own. Watch for signs of redness/irritation around the anus and uretrhal opening, which indicate you are stimulating too vigorously. Back off on the pressure, and apply a bit of soothing calendula ointment (available at health food stores) to heal the irritation.

If the feces come out liquid or "smeary", it's a sign of potentially serious trouble. Consult your rabbit-experienced veterinarian at the first sign of diarrhea, as this can be fatal in only a few hours in a baby rabbit.

# One to two weeks: 5-7 cc/ml each feeding (two feedings per day). The amount will depending on bunny, and may be much LESS if the baby is small.

NOTE: Do not allow a baby rabbit overfeed at one sitting! Once a baby learns the Turbo Suck (tm), he can suckle so quickly that it's possible for him to ingest a volume too great for his little tummy. Although it's unlikely for the stomach to rupture, stretching it too taut can cause pain, gas, and make the baby sick. It is better to underfeed slightly than overfeed. If in doubt, let the baby rest for about a minute after feeding, then offer the nipple again. This gives time for the stretch receptors to respond and let the baby know he's really full.

# Two to three weeks: 7-13 cc/ml each feeding (two feedings). Domestic rabbits' eyes open at about 10 days of age. Start introducing them to timothy and oat hay, pellets and water in a shallow dish.

# Three to six weeks: 13-15 cc/ml each feeding (two feedings) As always, quantity may be LESS depending on the size of the rabbit.

NOTE: At the age of about three weeks, babies will begin to experiment with solid food. Not only is it important to continue enriching the formula with colostrum, but at this stage it is time to inoculate them with normal rabbit bacterial flora from a healthy, parasite-free adult rabbit. Start to scout for a potential cecotrope donor when you first take the babies into your care. When they're about 2.5 - 3 weeks old, obtain a fresh cecotrope and mix it into a small quantity of formula. You will probably have to feed this as if it were medicine, as most babies do NOT enjoy this "special" formula. But it will help to establish their normal flora at a time when the stomach pH is likely not to interfere with proper colonization of healthy bacterial flora farther down the intestinal tract. Inoculation for 2-3 days in a row seems to be sufficient for establishment of normal flora.


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## Bunny Mum (Jan 22, 2010)

This is fantastic information that i could have done with a week ago but someone else will be in debted to you for. We have only one kit left, devastating as we have become attached to each one more and more as time goes on we have even had our favourites due to their colouring markings or just their own idiosyncrycies even at less than a week old. Thank you all for your help.
Trish and Gerard
Dedicated Bunny Mums


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## Bunny Mum (Jan 23, 2010)

RIP Ginger and your six babies. We tried everything and thought we had succeeded with two but luck wasn't on our side. Poor Fred i hope he is not too lonely dancing alone.............


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## crystal (Jan 26, 2010)

Oh I'm so sorry. You really did put so much time, effort and love into trying to get the babies to make it through. Dedicated bunny mums sure is an accurate name...

:bigtears: :great::bouquet::rip:


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