# Planning a new breed



## Saudade (Jun 22, 2009)

I have decided that when I graduate from uni (5 years from now) I will be starting my own rabbitry. I've begun plans to create the ultimate rabbit (in my opinion atleast). 

Through breeding I plan to combine the markings and colors of Dutch rabbits with the plush fur of a Rex (Or mini rex I still need to work this out).

Now before anyone starts telling me things like 'Oh you don't know what you're getting in for' or 'It'll take a lifetime and a half'. I don't want to hear it, I don't mean to be rude, but I do realise what I'm getting in to, and I plan to live forever. I'm determined that I will create this new breed someday.

What I am looking for is resources on rabbit genetics (from beginner to expert), people with previous experience interbreeding dutch x rex and those breeders who have general experience with attempting hybrids.

I figure the standard I will be looking for in markings will be identical as the dutch, while the coat quality will be that of a rex.


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## Saudade (Jun 22, 2009)

This is the closest I've ever seen! But exactly what I'm looking to create in a breed! Obviously that isn't a dutch x rex, atleast I don't think it is... Either way it isn't a registered breed.


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## okiron (Jun 22, 2009)

Good luck! But I'm curious, what would be the purpose of this breed? Why do you think it'll be the ultimate rabbit?


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## Saudade (Jun 22, 2009)

It is not really the ultimate rabbit, to be honest i just love dutch patterns and the fur of rexes are beautiful.

The purpose of the breed would be combining the quality of dutchies, their beautiful and consistent pattern, which live for longer than most breeds, with the amazing fur of a rex.

I really want to take the best qualities from both rexes and dutchies. They will be aimed at being a show/pet rabbits.


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## okiron (Jun 22, 2009)

Sounds like good reasons. Keep us (or at least me) updated when the time comes


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## Numbat (Jun 22, 2009)

I admire your determination!

If it's important to you and you persist with it I reckon you could pull it off.

Good luck mate! I'll look out for the Dex bunn someday


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## fuzz16 (Jun 22, 2009)

plus the fact that rexes tend to be more hypoallerginic than some breeds and they can get the dutch's pattern.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jun 22, 2009)

Um, quite honestly, I wouldn't even bother with Dutch x Rex.

I'd start with a BEW rex and a regular colored rex. Then breed those and just purposely create some VM's. VM rabbits tend to have the Dutch pattern anyway. You could create dutch-marked rex and try to get it recognized as a color which would be MUCH easier than trying to get a whole new breed accepted.

New breeds have to be very consistent to even make presentations. So you seriously are looking at several lifetimes of bringing huge amounts of non-showable culls into the world. Because of this, you're going to have to seriously think about for-real culling (killing) a lot of the babies. Because the amount of rabbits you need to produce to create a new breed way outnumbers those that can practically find a good pet home for.

I'm not against breeding for a purpose, but I am somewhat skeptical about whether all these new rexy fur mutt mixes are really a great idea. One person cannot create a new breed...it must have a following. Think about how many hundreds of people breed Lionheads and they're close but still not accepted.

I'm not telling you not to do it, but just a few more curveballs to consider.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Jun 22, 2009)

*Saudade wrote: *


> They will be aimed at being a show/pet rabbits.



I think the closest you'd get for them to be in shows, is in the 4-H pet class....really it will take so long for that breed to be accepted...and first you'd have to get lots of breeders breeding them, and that's after you've gotten what you want..  

I agree with OakRidge. It will take a lot of time, more than a lifetime...and one person can't create a breed on their own. 

I think the rabbits you'd want to be making, would only make it as far as being pet rabbits...or a child's first 4-H rabbit...because it would take a while for them to get in ARBA shows...and you can't just put one in a Dutch or Rex class and expect it to place, or anything like that. 

I too am not telling you not to do this, but I'm just saying it's going to be tough and it may not work...

Why don't you pick a breed that is already accepted by the ARBA and work to get new colours into that, or something of the sort? I, personally, would love to see VM a recognized colour. It's a great colour. As OakRidge said, you could go with the BEW rex and regular coloured rex, and try getting VM recognized in that...

Emily


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## polly (Jun 22, 2009)

There seems to be quite a few breeds that have the rex coat through them I know there are a few breeders of astrex rex in Australia so I am sure the rex coat is popular over there.

You may find it easier to find a stud partner or someone willing to work with you as there is a lot of crossing and holding onto babies to see how they go.
I am certainly no genetic expert but I dont see how using BEW and vienna mark would be the way to go about it I reckon I would go the dutch x rex path. Vienna marks do not seem to hold a very stable pattern and from what I have seen a dutch vienna mark is a loose term! I also think dutch is off a different gene completely from BEW/Vienna though could be wrong.

If you are interested in the genetic side and are looking for advice Phil Batey is good I also believe he will be judging in australia I think its next year  here is his website it may be worth emailing him (you may need to bug him a few times) I have linked you to his genetics page  it may also be worth pming Pamnock for her advice as she is fantastic with genetics too 

http://www.miniaturelops.com/genetics.htm


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## BlueGiants (Jun 22, 2009)

It's a noble idea to develop something new. But know what you are getting into before you start.

The Rex fur has been bred into probably almost every breed out there... during the 1930's and 1940's they were even bred into the Flemish Giant (and sold as Giant rex pelts for coats and collars!) They've been working on the Velveteen Lop for years and still can't get it to breed true. 

When the MINI Rex was developed from the Rex, it took years to get it presented and accepted. And there were quite a number of people working on it. It took the developer of the Silver Fox almost 20 years of selective breeding and culling before that breed was perfected and accepted. (Want to hazard a guess at how many rabbits he produced in 20 years that were not what he wanted?)

You are going to need a LOT of time and a LOT of room (over 50 cages) dedicated to the endeavor. Not to mention TONS of patience. And in the mean time, you better have some place for all your culls... they can't all go as pets.

(And by the way, I could probably put you in touch with a breeder or 2 that already have Dutch marked Mini Rex...)


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## Saudade (Jun 22, 2009)

> I'd start with a BEW rex and a regular colored rex. Then breed those and just purposely create some VM's. VM rabbits tend to have the Dutch pattern anyway.


As stated in another post the Vienna Markings do not consistently remain as Dutch marked, plus this is not what I am aiming for.



> Because of this, you're going to have to seriously think about for-real culling (killing) a lot of the babies.


Please don't bother with telling me these sorts of things, I've discussed this with breeders before, I said at the top that I knew what I was getting in to. 



> I think the closest you'd get for them to be in shows, is in the 4-H pet class


Yet again not what I asked for, I have already looked in to what has to be done to get a new breed registered. Some things are done differently over here. Also we don't follow the ARBA standards (IIRC we follow BRC).



> it may also be worth pming Pamnock for her advice as she is fantastic with genetics too


On my to-do list, when I first told a RO member about this she sent me that way! Her website was great! Didn't have everything I was looking for but I'm sure she'll have some answers.



> I also think dutch is off a different gene completely from BEW/Vienna though could be wrong.



Nope you're right, the Dutch gene is dissimilar to the Vienna gene, a breeder once explained the dominance and recessiveness. And yeah, Vienna marked rabbits have a rare chance of actually being Dutch marked. Even if their parents were (IIRC).



> There seems to be quite a few breeds that have the rex coat through them I know there are a few breeders of astrex rex in Australia so I am sure the rex coat is popular over there. You may find it easier to find a stud partner or someone willing to work with you as there is a lot of crossing and holding onto babies to see how they go. I am certainly no genetic expert but I dont see how using BEW and vienna mark would be the way to go about it I reckon I would go the dutch x rex path. Vienna marks do not seem to hold a very stable pattern and from what I have seen a dutch vienna mark is a loose term! I also think dutch is off a different gene completely from BEW/Vienna though could be wrong. If you are interested in the genetic side and are looking for advice Phil Batey is good I also believe he will be judging in australia I think its next year  here is his website it may be worth emailing him (you may need to bug him a few times) I have linked you to his genetics page  it may also be worth pming Pamnock for her advice as she is fantastic with genetics too  http://www.miniaturelops.com/genetics.htm


This is exactly what I was looking for! (I noted the phil batey bit too).

Thank you polly and bluegiants! Your answers stayed within the guidelines of my question, were helpful and informative. I wonder if pam might see this thread...

Anyway I don't plan to take this on, on my own. Once I have the GENETICS side down pat, which is what this entire question was aimed at, I will be recruiting some of the breeders I know around. Once I have two stabe prototypes.


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## irishbunny (Jun 22, 2009)

What it sounds like your trying to do is create a new colour on the rex rather then create a new breed, like bluegiants said she knows breeders who have already done it, maybe you could get in contact with them and see how they managed it and work on it.


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## Saudade (Jun 22, 2009)

Or put the rex fur onto a dutch. It's the same difference. I've already put it on my todo list thanks irishbunny.
There are some qualities I want to bring from the dutches over, so it really depends on how much of the dutch qualities are brought over as to whether it becomes a new breed or not.


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## Saudade (Jun 22, 2009)

I don't know how much of one will stick to the other, it depends on the dominant and recessive genes.

I do know that they will be insanely hyperactive either way.


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## Leland1 (Jun 22, 2009)

*Numbat wrote: *


> I admire your determination!
> 
> If it's important to you and you persist with it I reckon you could pull it off.
> 
> Good luck mate! I'll look out for the Dex bunn someday



Me too!! Good on ya for making the effort! Im still trying to get rabbits to breed much less invinting a breed!!



Best of luck in your endevors!!


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## BSAR (Jun 22, 2009)

Hmm that is interesting. I am sure many people would love a Dutch with Rex fur! 

What would you call the breed? 
Good luck!


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jun 22, 2009)

Making the vienna markings consistent would be equally as difficult as getting a Dutch/Rex mix recognized. Except the chances of getting another Rex pattern recognized is probably a lot higher...


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## Erins Rabbits (Jun 23, 2009)

*OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *


> Making the vienna markings consistent would be equally as difficult as getting a Dutch/Rex mix recognized. Except the chances of getting another Rex pattern recognized is probably a lot higher...




AGREED.

We don't need another rexified breed. We've already got two, and there's a good chance velveteens will pass (for us) this year. I don't know how many/what you've got over there, but I think a rex furred dutch is pushing it a little and you'd have problems with consistency... etc etc.


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## polly (Jun 23, 2009)

I would def. email Phil, he may take a while to get back to you he is always busy lol! if you want you can say Polly put you in touch 

As for standards I would say we do not create a new standard the same way as ARBA do we present a breed standard to the BRC once they accept teh standard you may start showing in the unstandardised class.

All through life people agree to disagree. One thing that strikes me is if all the people who met with criticism decided not to go ahead we would have a lot less rabbit breeds. It is a hard path to take however in holland they have a lot more colours than us from taking these kind of steps.


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## Jenson (Jun 25, 2009)

The Dutch marked Rex is already accepted in BRC standard, not sure about ARBA though. So they are not a new breed, more a breed that has just been allowed to die out. 

Our breed Standard for the Dutch Rex requires a rabbit to be Rex in body and coat with the Dutch pattern. They were created by crossing Dutch and Rex. But obviously if you are seriously wanting to get them registered as a new breed you can breed for Dutch type and pattern with a Rex coat, it's up to you.

Oakridge makes some good points, creating a new breed or reviving an old one is really not something one person can do alone, you need to have enough of a support group behind you, this is the entire reason the Dutch Rex died out in the UK in the first place. You need to find some breeders who are willing to work towards the same goal, and you need to make a Dutch Rex fan group somehow!

I suggest you buy the book, "A Fanciers Guide to the Rex Rabbit" by John Hodgkiss, it's excellent for any Rex lover and covers everything from genetics to bedding, it has a section about Dutch Rex too!

You can buy it from this website:

http://www.furandfeather.co.uk/index.php?page=rabbit-breeds

Personally I'd love to see Dutch Rex make a comeback!


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## wooly_queen (Jun 25, 2009)

Sounds cool. That pic is very cute! Two great and versitile breeds mixed sounds good.


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