# Starting a Pedigree for Unpedigreed Rabbits?



## hnms06

What is the best way to start a pedigree for Unpedigreed rabbits? 

I understand the concept of the pedigree: information for both parents back 3 generations.

I am starting out with 2 rabbits that aren't pedigreed but would like to add pedigreed rabbits later and am wondering if it is important to start a pedigree for my babies. It seems like I should because some info is better than no info and and if I end up keeping any of my babies to breed then they are one step closer to a complete pedigree.

What do you think? 

Thanks!


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## mistyjr

I want to also do this to my lion head babies. I was told to start the father and mother info and the babies. I want to do it too


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## countrybuns

I think that they would be considered F1 lionhead as they are first generation purebred because you know mom and dad are lionheads so you would basically take a blank pedigree mark everything unknown except sire and dam. One of the breeders on here used to breed lionheads and will probably be able to explain it to you and maybe even link you to a partial pedigree. good luck!


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## mistyjr

When i went to the show last week. I bought a lion head baby from this lady. One of her babies had a half of a pedigree.


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## countrybuns

you should post it to give us an idea of what a partial looks like... if you don't mind.


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## hnms06

Yeah that would be great! I know that if you breed a pedigreed rabbit with a non pedigreed rabbit the babies have a partial pedigree. I've found blank pedigrees online that you can enter the info in. I've also seen software made for making pedigrees but the ones I've found are $70-$80 and I don't really want to pay that much for software right now I'd rather get a doe!


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## mistyjr

I dont have the bunny. I just seen it at the show. I was going to get the bunny but I didnt know about the pedigree that way so I got the other bunny instead! Sorry


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## hnms06

ohhh ok no prob!


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## mistyjr

But I have a litter right now. They are 4 weeks old. When I start litter, Do keep one of the babies to make a pedigree. I am kinda lost on this pegiree part. I never filled one out or dont know what to do...


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## TinysMom

I will scan one of my old pedigrees tonight and post it as a picture. 

It will probably take me a couple of hours to get around to doing this.


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## mistyjr

*TinysMom wrote: *


> I will scan one of my old pedigrees tonight and post it as a picture.
> 
> It will probably take me a couple of hours to get around to doing this.


okay.. But I have a question though.. Do I keep one of the lionhead babies to start an pedigree? I have the momma and daddy, But the daddy is going to get sold. Hes colors and haves wooly texture on hes ears. I just want to start an pedigree on momma. So how do I do it. I never done this before and ever filled out a pedigree.

Thanks, Misty


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## hnms06

Great thanks! 

To Misty: If you keep one of your babies then it will have a partial pedigree that goes back 1 generation. If you sell all the babies then they will know the info for the parents and if they breed the baby they got from you then they can continue the pedigree. 
Most pedigrees go back 3 generations but I believe some go back farther and all you have to do is fill in the blanks basically. That's about as much as I know about them so far!


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## mistyjr

So, I cant start one for the Momma, Just the babies?
I was wondering because, I have a litter of babies, The mom is black and the dad is chestnut. The babies are 2 chestnut and one haraquin baby. I am selling the daddy due to poor coat and haves wooly on hes ears. And I am keeping the momma, But I got a pedigree black tort last weekend. So their is no way that I can pedigree the momma.


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## mistyjr

Sorry, For Hijacking your thread!


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## hnms06

Nope not unless you can find someway to track down her parents and their parents and then their parents. lol

Hijacking is fine!  maybe we'll both get lots of info on pedigrees if someone else reads this!


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## mistyjr

Yeah, I have too agree with ya.. When Maybe if my haraquin baby is a doe, I will keep her and get rid of the rest. And start an pedigree on them. But the sucky thing is that momma isnt pedigree and my new baby is.


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## hnms06

Is your new black tort a doe or buck?


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## mistyjr

It's a Buck


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## TinysMom

*mistyjr wrote: *


> So, I cant start one for the Momma, Just the babies?
> I was wondering because, I have a litter of babies, The mom is black and the dad is chestnut. The babies are 2 chestnut and one haraquin baby. I am selling the daddy due to poor coat and haves wooly on hes ears. And I am keeping the momma, But I got a pedigree black tort last weekend. So their is no way that I can pedigree the momma.


The pedigree is a record of the ancestors of that particular rabbit - not the offspring. So unless you know the parents and grandparents behind the rabbit - you can not do a pedigree on it.

You can however start a pedigree on the offspring of the rabbit since you know the mama and the daddy.

I hate sharing pedigrees on the internet because I know unethical breeders will forge them or copy them but change little things here and there. However - since Angel is a retired doe and I don't think her breeders are well-known - it wouldn't help anyone to use her information.









You will notice Angel's name is on the far left and the n the pedigree is broken into two parts- with her sire's information on the top and her dam's information on the bottom.

Feel free to ask specific questions and I'll try to help.


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## hnms06

Oh I came up with another pedigree question... 

When making a pedigree for a baby when do you weigh them for the weight that goes on the pedigree? obviously their weight will change as they grow so is this something that is done before they are sold?


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## mistyjr

I have read that they do the weight at 6 months old.


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## TinysMom

The weight must be when they are a senior - 6 months or older.


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## hnms06

Thanks! So if I sell before 6 months I just leave it blank and the new owner can fill it in?


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## TinysMom

*hnms06 wrote: *


> Thanks! So if I sell before 6 months I just leave it blank and the new owner can fill it in?


Yes.

I thought about bringing up another discussion but it would complicate things too much. Its about the whole F1, F2, F3 thing - that you go through before rabbits are "purebred".

If y'all want to discuss that - feel free to ask -


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## mistyjr

*TinysMom wrote: *


> *hnms06 wrote: *
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks! So if I sell before 6 months I just leave it blank and the new owner can fill it in?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> I thought about bringing up another discussion but it would complicate things too much. Its about the whole F1, F2, F3 thing - that you go through before rabbits are "purebred".
> 
> If y'all want to discuss that - feel free to ask -
Click to expand...

I got question for this??

On my lionhead buck, hes pedigree haves F3 and F2?? Why's that? And 3rd of 5 at lionhead N??


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## TinysMom

The F3 and the F2 are not full pedigreed at that point (so they aren't purebred).

3rd of 5 at Lionhead Nationals means there were five in his category and he came in third out of the five.


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## mistyjr

How could that be because they have to have a purebred to have a pedigree?


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## hnms06

I've read about f1 hybrid where a purebread is bread to another type of rabbit to change body type or whatnot. Does the f1 also apply to a rabbit that has a pedigree that for example only goes back 1 generation? or is this something else altogether?


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## mistyjr

So then I take it that hes pedigree and him is no good because there is a mix breed in there??


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## TinysMom

*mistyjr wrote: *


> How could that be because they have to have a purebred to have a pedigree?


A rabbit does NOT have to be purebred to have a pedigree.

However - it MUST have a pedigree to be considered purebred.

There is nothing wrong with your buck's pedigree and it is not worthless. I am assuming that the F2 and F3 are in his parents/grandparents and not him. If so - that means that he is now purebred. If he is an F3 - that means his offspring will be considered "purebred".

I'm going to give an example using my doe Nyx - I only have half a pedigree on her. 

Because I only have her mother's information - even though she is by blood "purebed" by pedigree she is "F1" - which means the first in the line towards becoming purebred.

Now let's say I breed her to Mercury (as I did) and I get a doe. She is now F2. (The bucks would also be F2).

Now I take the F2 doe - back to her dad Mercury for linebreeding. The F2 doe's babies become F3.

Now as long as I take those F3 babies and breed them to other F3s - OR - purebreds - their offspring will now be considered purebred. Why? They have three generations of documented flemish giants in their background.


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## mistyjr

*TinysMom wrote: *


> *mistyjr wrote: *
> 
> 
> 
> How could that be because they have to have a purebred to have a pedigree?
> 
> 
> 
> A rabbit does NOT have to be purebred to have a pedigree.
> 
> However - it MUST have a pedigree to be considered purebred.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with your buck's pedigree and it is not worthless. I am assuming that the F2 and F3 are in his parents/grandparents and not him. If so - that means that he is now purebred. If he is an F3 - that means his offspring will be considered "purebred".
> 
> I'm going to give an example using my doe Nyx - I only have half a pedigree on her.
> 
> Because I only have her mother's information - even though she is by blood "purebed" by pedigree she is "F1" - which means the first in the line towards becoming purebred.
> 
> Now let's say I breed her to Mercury (as I did) and I get a doe. She is now F2. (The bucks would also be F2).
> 
> Now I take the F2 doe - back to her dad Mercury for linebreeding. The F2 doe's babies become F3.
> 
> Now as long as I take those F3 babies and breed them to other F3s - OR - purebreds - their offspring will now be considered purebred. Why? They have three generations of documented flemish giants in their background.
Click to expand...

He's pedigree
Grandparents and hes 4th great grand parents haves the F2 & F3


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## mistyjr

He's Mother haves the 3rd od 5 at lionheads N


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## TinysMom

*mistyjr wrote: *


> So then I take it that hes pedigree and him is no good because there is a mix breed in there??


I really need to point out something here.

A pedigree is basically a piece of paper that states the lineage behind the rabbit to "prove" it is purebred. It is useful in keeping records and knowing the parents of offspring - its useful for showing and getting rabbits registered and helping them get "grand champion" status when they get wins.

But as far as what comes into my barn - the pedigree means nothing compared to the rabbit themselves. I can see a typey rabbit with no pedigree and a non-typey rabbit with a pedigree and I'll pick the no-pedigreed rabbit hands down. Why? Because in three generations from that rabbit (which I can tell is high quality) - I'll have purebreds. Yeah - that may be two years down the road - but if the rabbit is good quality - I'll go ahead and get it.


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## TinysMom

*mistyjr wrote: *


> *TinysMom wrote: *
> 
> 
> 
> *mistyjr wrote: *
> 
> 
> 
> How could that be because they have to have a purebred to have a pedigree?
> 
> 
> 
> A rabbit does NOT have to be purebred to have a pedigree.
> 
> However - it MUST have a pedigree to be considered purebred.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with your buck's pedigree and it is not worthless. I am assuming that the F2 and F3 are in his parents/grandparents and not him. If so - that means that he is now purebred. If he is an F3 - that means his offspring will be considered "purebred".
> 
> I'm going to give an example using my doe Nyx - I only have half a pedigree on her.
> 
> Because I only have her mother's information - even though she is by blood "purebed" by pedigree she is "F1" - which means the first in the line towards becoming purebred.
> 
> Now let's say I breed her to Mercury (as I did) and I get a doe. She is now F2. (The bucks would also be F2).
> 
> Now I take the F2 doe - back to her dad Mercury for linebreeding. The F2 doe's babies become F3.
> 
> Now as long as I take those F3 babies and breed them to other F3s - OR - purebreds - their offspring will now be considered purebred. Why? They have three generations of documented flemish giants in their background.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *He's pedigree
> Grandparents and hes 4th great grand parents haves the F2 & F3*
Click to expand...

Once again - any rabbit can be "pedigreed". I can sell you an F2 rabbit that has a pedigree of the generations I know about - and it is a "pedigreed" rabbit. It just isn't a purebred rabbit.

There is a difference between "pedigreed" (meaning - it has papers) - and "purebred" (meaning it has the documentation on the papers to show its at least 3rd generation of that breed).


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## mistyjr

okay...


I was reading somewhere and i read that they have to have a pedigree to be able to be shown??


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## TinysMom

*mistyjr wrote: *


> okay...
> 
> 
> I was reading somewhere and i read that they have to have a pedigree to be able to be shown??


Maybe at ARBA Nationals? I don't know.

All of the shows I've ever been to - I never needed their pedigrees and I don't mess with taking them with me (unless I'm selling a rabbit -then I will take the rabbit's pedigree with me).

The only other case I can think of right off is the Statler Award (I think) for lionheads. In that case - they are judging the offspring (4 I think?) of one rabbit - and you need the four rabbits plus their pedigrees to prove that they are the offspring of the rabbit entered.


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## mistyjr

:biggrin: Thanks


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## mistyjr

Peg, I made a thread of my new lionhead buck pictures 
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=57733&forum_id=8


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## TinysMom

Yes - I saw them when you posted. I hope you enjoy him.


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## mistyjr

My hubby carries him in hes pocket!


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## Blaze_Amita

That's what we did with my mini rex doe. She's G-2 because her mother's ped never came in and her father was a worked down bloodline, he was the 4th or 5th generation down, her children are Generation 3 and fully pedigree-able. We had Poppy's parents and her grandparents info so that was as far back as we were able to go. 

Anyway. we will all try to help answer questions!


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## countrybuns

You will probably see the F1,2,3 a bit more in lionheads because people are still working on type and bringing ND's and other breeds to correct them. One of my new bucks is F3 because a thrianta was introduced into the lines 3 generations back to correct colour (blue tort) he has great type and a beautiful mane and I will be line breeding him along with a lilac doe to get lilac torts out of the deal so I know that when I am ready to show them the lilac torts will be considered purebred.

now for my question; on my rabbits pedigrees there are some missing weights, will that affect my ability to register my rabbits if I ever needed to?


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## DarkLadyKat

So I don't know if this thread is still followed up on but I have a pedigree start up question as well as would like to know if I am headed in the right direction here.

So we like many others are starting from non pedigreed bunnies. Most if not all of which we know what the parents were/are their color and size However most of the parents did not have ear tattoos. 

So first question does a bunny have to have an ear tattoo to be listed on a pedigree?

Next because we know we have to produce 3 generation to Complete a pedigree we have decided to start each breed of bunny with 2 unrelated males and 4 females with at least 2 unrelated lines in our females.

So for example sake B1, and B2 will be males and D1B1, D2B1, D3B2, D4B2 will be the 4 does the first 2 being sisters of B1 and second 2 sisters of B2

So if we breed
B1/D3B2 (litter1) and B1/D4B2 (litter2) and then B2/D1B1 (litter3) and B2/D2B1 (litter4)

And for example sake now we have produced gen 2 and we keep 1 Buck from litter litter 1 (G2B1) and 3(G2B2) and 1 Doe from litter 2(G2D4B1) and 4(G2D2B2) and we then breed

G2B1/G2D2B2 & G2B2/G2D4B1
we have produced G3 and if we keep a buck from 1 litter and a doe from the other 
Their offspring would finally be G4 which would be full blooded, with non inbred lines and have a full pedigree 

Bringing me to question 2; Please tell me if I am on the right track here for this process?

Now my final thoughts are how many generations or degrees of separation are typical within a rabbitry (I know direct relationship are just inbreeding such as mom/son, dad/daughter, full bro/full sis) but where do the degrees become safe and acceptable within 1 pedigree aunts and nephews, half sibling, grandparents and grandchildren/great grandchildren.

So final question is what is common practice in generation skipping/dilution for carrying on your lines?

A little information about myself I have been in a family that has raised and bred many animals for food, show, and pets but times have changed a lot since I was a part of the process and so have acceptable practices which is why I am seeking out a polled forum to reacquaint myself with today's common practices. 

Thank you all for your time and patience.


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## SableSteel

You'd probably be better off starting a new thread. The old one is from 2010 and many of the people that responded aren't active any longer.

They don't need an ear tattoo to be on a pedigree as long as they have a name to identify them by (not just the prefix) afaik

Personally, if your goal is pedigreed rabbits, you should just find pedigreed rabbits to start with. The price of breeding and feeding three generations of unpedigreed rabbits is usually well more than the price of pedigreed stock + transportation. In most cases the breeders who keep pedigrees are the better ones to buy breeding stock from as well, especially if you plan on showing. 

How much you can linebreed depends on your line. If your rabbits have the same faults and weaknesses you need to bring in new blood, if not you can tolerate more linebreeding. Rabbits tend to handle inbreeding better than some other animals we keep as pets (dogs, horses, etc). Personally, I don't care about linebreeding too much. If a father/daughter or brother/sister pair complement each other, I'll breed them, but this only works because the lines Im breeding from don't have many genetic weaknesses and I have no tolerance for genetic flaws. It depends on breed as well. Some breeds suffer more from inbreeding depression than others.


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## emily braun

I NEED HELP! I bought a purebred Rex that doesn’t have a pedigree, I’ve showed her without one so I know she’s purebred. Who I bought her from doesn’t pedigree his rabbits and I’m no longer in contact with him so how do I start with just her? Or would I have to breed her and pedigree her kits?


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## Happy Hollands

emily braun said:


> I NEED HELP! I bought a purebred Rex that doesn’t have a pedigree, I’ve showed her without one so I know she’s purebred. Who I bought her from doesn’t pedigree his rabbits and I’m no longer in contact with him so how do I start with just her? Or would I have to breed her and pedigree her kits?


A pedigree proves a rabbit is purebred, and it goes 3 generations back. So while possible, it's a long process to "create" one. I recommend reaching out to the breeder you bought her from and asking about her parents (names, colors, weight, DOB, etc.). This way, her babies' babies will be considered fully purebred / pedigreed. Otherwise, if you start with her, it will be a full 3 generations (which could take around 1.5 - 2 years) before the rabbits will be fully pedigreed.


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