# REPOST: Bunny Bonding Woes -- HELP



## Allen Wrider (Oct 22, 2019)

I posted this in another thread but I'm looking for various opinions. At my wit's end!!

I have this beautiful Florida white bunny named Quinn that I've raised from a baby, and she's been with me for a year and a half. She's my first bunny, and she's very attached to me so I didn't plan on getting another rabbit.

But Easter came around, and one of my colleagues got his kids an "Easter bunny". Well, we all know how well that goes, so this unspayed female that they couldn't take care of ended up in my lap. I had her spayed immediately, and set to work finding out everything I could about bunny bonding, but it's going terribly!

It's been two months since the new bun (Skippy's) spay, and she absolutely refuses to submit to Quinn. Quinn wasn't happy with her either, but she displays the typical dominant behavior and isn't aggressive unless directly responding to Skippy's behavior. Skippy's bit her, pulled tufts of her fur, boxed and chased her, and tried to mount her very aggressively.

I recently changed their separate caging to a pen setup with a fence in between, and they're not fighting or biting through the fence (which is an improvement), but they both bow down and ask to be groomed, and neither one will relent. Sometimes Skippy still raises her tail when she sees Quinn eating or hopping by, though she doesn't lunge at the fence. Quinn is largely uncaring of her presence and often lounges directly by the fence.

While the change in environment seems to have helped, I still can't trust them together and I'm afraid they'll never bond! I don't want to get rid of either one or have them fight forever-- PLEASE HELP!


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## zuppa (Oct 22, 2019)

So after they both spayed and about 2 months after that were they introduced in a neutral territory which is absolutely new for both? If not they will probably keep defending their territory.
If first bonding failed you can try separating them again for a couple weeks but so they can't see each other so they can be reintroduced again as completely new rabbits, they should forget each other by then if they never had a serious fight.


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## Imbrium (Oct 22, 2019)

Great info about bonding can be found on these sites:
https://www.cottontails-rescue.org.uk/information/bonding-bunnies/
https://rabbitsindoors.weebly.com/bonding-bunnies.html
http://www.saveabunny.org/rabbitcare/bonding-guide
http://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Bonding_rabbits_together
https://rabbit.org/hop-on-board-perspectives-on-rabbit-mounting-behavior/

F/F bonds are much tougher than F/M bonds and there's no guarantee it'll work (though I've succeeded, so it's also definitely possible).

The initial questions I have are:
~ Are you using completely neutral territory for bonding (ie neither rabbit has been in it unless the other one was there too)?
~ How big is the bonding area?
~ What amenities are in the bonding area and how willing are they to share? (in terms of hay, veggies, water, litter box, toys, etc.)
~ What's the frequency and duration of your bonding sessions (on average)?
~ Have you done any stress bonding, and if so, how much/for how long? (Stress bonding examples: rabbits (and human referee) loose in the backseat of a moving car, on top a washer during the spin cycle, in a bathtub, with someone running a vacuum in the room, etc. - anything that will make them slightly to moderately anxious and more interested in usual in seeking the comfort of a fellow rabbit.)

If you've got the time and inclination to post a brief video (like 2-3 mins) of them interacting, that can be very helpful as well since body language of the rabbits can speak volumes to experienced bonders .


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## Allen Wrider (Oct 23, 2019)

Imbrium said:


> Great info about bonding can be found on these sites:
> https://www.cottontails-rescue.org.uk/information/bonding-bunnies/
> https://rabbitsindoors.weebly.com/bonding-bunnies.html
> http://www.saveabunny.org/rabbitcare/bonding-guide
> ...


The problem I'm having is that this new pen is as close to neutral territory as I can manage. Since I had Quinn for almost a year before Skippy came into my care, all her extras went into temp care for Skippy. Quinn's been pretty much everywhere in the house except for the kitchen, but I don't have the proper gates or means to do it in the kitchen for long periods of time. 

I'm honestly afraid to stress bond them because I've got almost no assistance in this process, so a car is out or anything where I can't be hands on with them. As for normal bonding sessions... They're maybe 10 minutes at a time, that's the longest I can keep them in a controlled area together without them begging to go elsewhere (like back in my room to their safe zones or over the gate and away from the other bunny). I will try to post a video soon, I need to get some things set up first.


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## Imbrium (Oct 23, 2019)

You NEED neutral territory for bonding. Based on that and all the other issues you're having with carving out an appropriate bonding area, I recommend investing in an x-pen. The best deal I know of is from Petco. It doesn't want to let me link something other than the biggest height (48'') because that's what I bought last spring, but even the 24'' height is acceptable for rabbits as long as they're vaguely supervised (without supervision I'd recommend 30 inches minimum... if they can get out of that height, it should be by climbing rather than jumping, which can be thwarted in other ways). Set it up on your front lawn, at a park, at a friend's house, whatever it takes to get neutral territory. You can also get a baby gate for around $10 at Wal-mart if the layout of your kitchen allows for gating.

Once you have an area that is foreign to both bunnies, they should be more interested in getting to know each other. Let them have a (neutral) litter box, water bowl, handful of hay and maybe veggies in the bonding pen and see how they do in a truly neutral space. Ignore requests to leave the bonding area. Kids beg. Parents refuse to cave for their children's own good. Rabbits work the same way - be strong!! 

If their initial inclination in a truly neutral area is to fight, though, you may need to reboot them by keeping them separated for 3-4 weeks where they can't see or smell each other.


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## Esthezyl (Oct 23, 2019)

Allen Wrider said:


> The problem I'm having is that this new pen is as close to neutral territory as I can manage. Since I had Quinn for almost a year before Skippy came into my care, all her extras went into temp care for Skippy. Quinn's been pretty much everywhere in the house except for the kitchen, but I don't have the proper gates or means to do it in the kitchen for long periods of time.
> 
> I'm honestly afraid to stress bond them because I've got almost no assistance in this process, so a car is out or anything where I can't be hands on with them. As for normal bonding sessions... They're maybe 10 minutes at a time, that's the longest I can keep them in a controlled area together without them begging to go elsewhere (like back in my room to their safe zones or over the gate and away from the other bunny). I will try to post a video soon, I need to get some things set up first.



Try to buy a big piece of fabric like a large towel and cover the bottom of your bath tub with it. Then you put your bunnies in it and separate them with a piece of card board every time they look like they are going to fight. Pet both at the same time, encourage them. Repeat the session each time a little bit longer. First can be 10 minutes, then 20, then 30 etc. This might take months. But if it's like some buns I know, it will work. At the same time, you can exchange their litter boxes and toys in their separate living areas so that they get used to the other's scent. When during bonding sessions, humping and chasing can be tolerated to a certain extend. When you see one might get injured, separate them, but not with your hands! Use the cardboard. Good luck!


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## Allen Wrider (Oct 24, 2019)

Imbrium said:


> You NEED neutral territory for bonding. Based on that and all the other issues you're having with carving out an appropriate bonding area, I recommend investing in an x-pen. The best deal I know of is from Petco. It doesn't want to let me link something other than the biggest height (48'') because that's what I bought last spring, but even the 24'' height is acceptable for rabbits as long as they're vaguely supervised (without supervision I'd recommend 30 inches minimum... if they can get out of that height, it should be by climbing rather than jumping, which can be thwarted in other ways). Set it up on your front lawn, at a park, at a friend's house, whatever it takes to get neutral territory. You can also get a baby gate for around $10 at Wal-mart if the layout of your kitchen allows for gating.
> 
> Once you have an area that is foreign to both bunnies, they should be more interested in getting to know each other. Let them have a (neutral) litter box, water bowl, handful of hay and maybe veggies in the bonding pen and see how they do in a truly neutral space. Ignore requests to leave the bonding area. Kids beg. Parents refuse to cave for their children's own good. Rabbits work the same way - be strong!!
> 
> If their initial inclination in a truly neutral area is to fight, though, you may need to reboot them by keeping them separated for 3-4 weeks where they can't see or smell each other.


Okay SO, it won't let me do a video for you, but after your suggestions I tried some bonding out in the kitchen (wiped down the gates I was using as a block to remove the smell, and neither of them go in the kitchen).

I gave them a tunnel that I hadn't yet left out for them and scrubbed the heck out of an old litter box that once upon a time tim for cats. Skippy immediately rubbed her chin on any and every surface she could find. The litter box, the cardboard tunnel, the legs of the kitchen table, you name it. Quinn was more reluctant to interact, and when Skippy went elsewhere to explore, she hunkered down in the litter box and began to eat.

It became very clear that it was her safe space, she started growling whenever Skippy would come by for a piece of hay or even just wander toward her. She never lunged, but she was very protective of the litter box and the food inside it. so after a few passes of this, I removed it from the area.

Then Skippy became protective of the tunnel and started chasing and biting Quinn when she got near it, so I felt it necessary to remove that as well. Unfortunately, with very little to stimulate them, Skippy began to chase and bite Quinn on her rear paws, and even when I eventually got them nose to nose Skippy continued to try and reach under Quinn's neck to bite her.

Quinn ended up running and leaping into my arms whenever Skippy wandered vaguely in her direction, and she spent the brief remainder of time with some part of her touching me at all times. Scared. Very very scared. I've included a screencap from a video I tried to take of the situation.


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## Imbrium (Oct 24, 2019)

I was able to view the videos that you sent me the link to via PM. Your instinct to remove objects that they got protective of was good, by the way. I saw both good and bad signs in the videos... at this point, I would say that they haven't reached the point where I'd recommend rebooting the process completely by keeping them apart for 3-4 weeks, which is good news. However, I saw a lot of stuff that makes me inclined to say that stress bonding (as well as backtracking to a smaller bonding area where you have a lot of control over the situation) is pretty much a must at this point.

This is great advice, though I'd make one adjustment to turn it into stress-bonding for the first few sessions:


Esthezyl said:


> Try to buy a big piece of fabric like a large towel and cover the bottom of your bath tub with it. Then you put your bunnies in it and separate them with a piece of card board every time they look like they are going to fight. Pet both at the same time, encourage them. Repeat the session each time a little bit longer. First can be 10 minutes, then 20, then 30 etc. This might take months. But if it's like some buns I know, it will work. At the same time, you can exchange their litter boxes and toys in their separate living areas so that they get used to the other's scent. When during bonding sessions, humping and chasing can be tolerated to a certain extend. When you see one might get injured, separate them, but not with your hands! Use the cardboard. Good luck!



In the beginning, skip the fabric/towel so that the bathtub is slippery. Increase the stressors in the environment by plugging in a vacuum and letting it run nearby or playing loud(ish) music, etc. Encourage them to sit together and pet them both at the same time while they're side-by-side (which also distracts them from thinking about fighting). End every session with some treats and make sure it ends on a good note. After a few sessions (or 5-10 minutes into each session if things are going well), you can add a towel or fabric and stop using noise... also start offering them some leafy green veggies to share. They've had a number of negative interactions at this point, so you'll need to be patient and help them gradually realize that being around each other can be a positive experience.

Edit: Also, I forgot to mention something pretty major - it's important to recognize the warning signs of a naughty idea forming! You can see it in a rabbit's body language when they're thinking about going on the attack and cut that off at the pass. When you see things like ears flattening back or a tail up in the air (like the brown rabbit's tail in one of the videos), interrupt that negative behavior *immediately* using a positive distraction (for both rabbits, not just the aggressor). Petting, hand-fed pellets (so you can give treats without overdoing it on fruits/non-leafy veggies), verbal reassurances, that sort of thing.


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## K1marie (Oct 26, 2019)

UGH!!!!! I am still working at bonding my 2 buns. Two neutered males. And I realize it may never happen - but I'm not throwing in the towel for several more months . I have been switching their cages every day. They each have a toy that looks like the other (the visual thing is more for MY benefit) - but I switch around their toys and cuddle them with each toy. I feed them greens in the area between the two cages - they remain civil for that. When out together though - they will fight. Lionel (the dwarf Lionhead) will bite at Murphy (the Big Boy Holland Lop). Murphy goes ape and jumps and kicks and in turn also bites and Murphy is basically like a small kangaroo with bear paws. Its very hard for me to tell the aggressor - they seem to switch on who makes the first move. Murphy does LOVE to be groomed and when face to face at the gates/cage will put his head down and ask. I can get him to sit forever scratching his head and ears. I tried banana on Murphs head - and Murph remained still but Lionel ended up biting him instead when he had the chance (how bad did I feel !!!!!) Lionel doesn't seem to get into the whole head grooming thing. He enjoys it for a brief time, but is then like - "if you don't have a treat for me - I'm out of here." I can't really hold them next to each other without restraining their heads. If I don't restrain their heads- either Lionel will turn and bite or Murphy will make a fast move (probably afraid Lionel is going to bite) and then they both get all jumpy. The seem fine if I restrain them - but they are just giving it to being restrained - it hasn't gotten me anywhere - as soon as they are free enough they will go at it. Neither has gotten injured thankfully - and we of course break it up with a dust pan - and just give 2 or 3 more tries but bc it seems they are just repeating their "attacks" - the sessions remain short. I have tried spraying water, a whistle, yelling - they cannot be distracted - and certainly not in a positive way. Starting out with positive distractions - such as treats - works until they have eaten them all - then back to the behavior. I have been told , I may be starting bonding too young? -they are 9 & 10 months old now. Maybe if ONE of them was older - and BOTH weren't so young? I bonded my last two neutered boys- but 1 was 5yrs old and the other was only 8 months. I read ALL about Bonding to refresh when I got these guys. I set up everything perfect - both neutered, two cages, a double gated area, multiple litter boxes - etc, etc. I had NO IDEA that they wouldn't eventually bond. Everything I read was M/F was the easiest, M/M next , then F/F the hardest. Everything said time and patience - but NOT that they WOULDNT bond. I wish I knew that. I got them at different times, I would have done "dates" or whatever to be able to have a successful duo. I have been switching their cages for a about 3 few weeks now - that hasn't changed anything. When one is out and I tell him to "go home" they jump in whichever cage is open. They both totally sprawl out on their ledges next to each other and sniff eachother without biting when they are in their cages...but I suspect that is bc they are smart and know they are each safe. I have tried bonding in the bath tub, in an outside pen, in a small box, a smalled penned area and a large penned area - all new places to them. The only time they were civil - was in the small box - but we had to rattle it - and I know that is TOO stressful for them - I don't know that they were seeking comfort in eachother as much as just being still bc they were being traumatized - so I won't do that again. I will however continue to try bonding - at least another 6 months being as creative as I can.... I want them to share a cage - which is much bigger and allow them to be out at the same time. Otherwise they can't each get enough time out. I love them both - but if I can't bond them - I will have to move to an area of the house that doesn't get much foot traffic - so they will certainly be lonely - else send one on dates and see if he can find a new home. And I DONT want to do either. My next step will be to move both cages to an area neither has been - there are only two rooms in my house (two unoccupied upstairs bedrooms) They will only see us when we go in and visit them. I will keep them apart 3 weeks and see if they are interested in getting along after being alone. Thats really my only hope (other than them getting a little older and settling their ways with age)


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## Allen Wrider (Oct 26, 2019)

K1marie said:


> UGH!!!!! I am still working at bonding my 2 buns. Two neutered males. And I realize it may never happen - but I'm not throwing in the towel for several more months . I have been switching their cages every day. They each have a toy that looks like the other (the visual thing is more for MY benefit) - but I switch around their toys and cuddle them with each toy. I feed them greens in the area between the two cages - they remain civil for that. When out together though - they will fight. Lionel (the dwarf Lionhead) will bite at Murphy (the Big Boy Holland Lop). Murphy goes ape and jumps and kicks and in turn also bites and Murphy is basically like a small kangaroo with bear paws. Its very hard for me to tell the aggressor - they seem to switch on who makes the first move. Murphy does LOVE to be groomed and when face to face at the gates/cage will put his head down and ask. I can get him to sit forever scratching his head and ears. I tried banana on Murphs head - and Murph remained still but Lionel ended up biting him instead when he had the chance (how bad did I feel !!!!!) Lionel doesn't seem to get into the whole head grooming thing. He enjoys it for a brief time, but is then like - "if you don't have a treat for me - I'm out of here." I can't really hold them next to each other without restraining their heads. If I don't restrain their heads- either Lionel will turn and bite or Murphy will make a fast move (probably afraid Lionel is going to bite) and then they both get all jumpy. The seem fine if I restrain them - but they are just giving it to being restrained - it hasn't gotten me anywhere - as soon as they are free enough they will go at it. Neither has gotten injured thankfully - and we of course break it up with a dust pan - and just give 2 or 3 more tries but bc it seems they are just repeating their "attacks" - the sessions remain short. I have tried spraying water, a whistle, yelling - they cannot be distracted - and certainly not in a positive way. Starting out with positive distractions - such as treats - works until they have eaten them all - then back to the behavior. I have been told , I may be starting bonding too young? -they are 9 & 10 months old now. Maybe if ONE of them was older - and BOTH weren't so young? I bonded my last two neutered boys- but 1 was 5yrs old and the other was only 8 months. I read ALL about Bonding to refresh when I got these guys. I set up everything perfect - both neutered, two cages, a double gated area, multiple litter boxes - etc, etc. I had NO IDEA that they wouldn't eventually bond. Everything I read was M/F was the easiest, M/M next , then F/F the hardest. Everything said time and patience - but NOT that they WOULDNT bond. I wish I knew that. I got them at different times, I would have done "dates" or whatever to be able to have a successful duo. I have been switching their cages for a about 3 few weeks now - that hasn't changed anything. When one is out and I tell him to "go home" they jump in whichever cage is open. They both totally sprawl out on their ledges next to each other and sniff eachother without biting when they are in their cages...but I suspect that is bc they are smart and know they are each safe. I have tried bonding in the bath tub, in an outside pen, in a small box, a smalled penned area and a large penned area - all new places to them. The only time they were civil - was in the small box - but we had to rattle it - and I know that is TOO stressful for them - I don't know that they were seeking comfort in eachother as much as just being still bc they were being traumatized - so I won't do that again. I will however continue to try bonding - at least another 6 months being as creative as I can.... I want them to share a cage - which is much bigger and allow them to be out at the same time. Otherwise they can't each get enough time out. I love them both - but if I can't bond them - I will have to move to an area of the house that doesn't get much foot traffic - so they will certainly be lonely - else send one on dates and see if he can find a new home. And I DONT want to do either. My next step will be to move both cages to an area neither has been - there are only two rooms in my house (two unoccupied upstairs bedrooms) They will only see us when we go in and visit them. I will keep them apart 3 weeks and see if they are interested in getting along after being alone. Thats really my only hope (other than them getting a little older and settling their ways with age)


This is... Pretty much the exact problem I'm having with Quinn and Skippy. Quinny's my baby, she loves being groomed and petted and she's been with me for so long that she's settled into the idea of being a rabbit. Being MY rabbit. She displays all the typical signs of dominance when they're at the fence together. But Skippy... When I got her, they hadn't touched her in at least two months. I don't know if they really fed her greens/hay and she certainly didn't get to leave her hutch to roam and explore. Plus she can't be older than seven months, going by what they told me about when they bought her. I think that more than being in with another rabbit, she... Doesn't know what to do with her new situation. She doesn't know how to be a bunny, much less coexist with another one. She's getting better with me, but I want her to respond positively to Quinn as well. 

Well, but I haven't tried stress bonding yet. I'm gonna see how @Imbrium 's methods go before I throw in the towel... And maybe Skippy just needs to be a little older, you know?


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## K1marie (Oct 26, 2019)

Allen Wrider said:


> This is... Pretty much the exact problem I'm having with Quinn and Skippy. Quinny's my baby, she loves being groomed and petted and she's been with me for so long that she's settled into the idea of being a rabbit. Being MY rabbit. She displays all the typical signs of dominance when they're at the fence together. But Skippy... When I got her, they hadn't touched her in at least two months. I don't know if they really fed her greens/hay and she certainly didn't get to leave her hutch to roam and explore. Plus she can't be older than seven months, going by what they told me about when they bought her. I think that more than being in with another rabbit, she... Doesn't know what to do with her new situation. She doesn't know how to be a bunny, much less coexist with another one. She's getting better with me, but I want her to respond positively to Quinn as well.
> 
> Well, but I haven't tried stress bonding yet. I'm gonna see how @Imbrium 's methods go before I throw in the towel... And maybe Skippy just needs to be a little older, you know?


Yeah, it seems like your Skippy is like my Lionel - more skiddish and insecure. My Murphy might as well wear a propeller on his head for the way he acts sometimes. But he does also get into the whole boxing and tornado thing. I am hoping time will teach Lionel (like your Skippy) that he's safe and there's no threat to him. He gets startled very easy with new voices and sometimes when a cat appears around the corner (which he LOVES the cats) but their sudden presence startles hims.


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## Emma Nelson (Oct 26, 2019)

Allen Wrider said:


> I posted this in another thread but I'm looking for various opinions. At my wit's end!!
> 
> I have this beautiful Florida white bunny named Quinn that I've raised from a baby, and she's been with me for a year and a half. She's my first bunny, and she's very attached to me so I didn't plan on getting another rabbit.
> 
> ...


I took my 2 male brother bunnies for a car ride, it really helped: the aggressive brother started grooming his sibling, it was astonishing. Sibling brother has taken longer to trust his once-aggressive brother (they remember!), but I can now house them together - although I'm still keeping a careful eye, as this was just over the past 7 days. For the car ride, the bunnies were initially in separate containers, then we put them together for the return journey (about 10 minutes each way). After the journey, I put them both in a small outdoor run on grass (new and neutral patch of lawn), with some suitable 'furniture' inside to give them places to hide if necessary. I had my sons take turns on standby beside the run for the first hour, so they could raise the alarm and intervene if necessary.


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## K1marie (Oct 26, 2019)

Emma Nelson said:


> I took my 2 male brother bunnies for a car ride, it really helped: the aggressive brother started grooming his sibling, it was astonishing. Sibling brother has taken longer to trust his once-aggressive brother (they remember!), but I can now house them together - although I'm still keeping a careful eye, as this was just over the past 7 days. For the car ride, the bunnies were initially in separate containers, then we put them together for the return journey (about 10 minutes each way). After the journey, I put them both in a small outdoor run on grass (new and neutral patch of lawn), with some suitable 'furniture' inside to give them places to hide if necessary. I had my sons take turns on standby beside the run for the first hour, so they could raise the alarm and intervene if necessary.





Emma Nelson said:


> I took my 2 male brother bunnies for a car ride, it really helped: the aggressive brother started grooming his sibling, it was astonishing. Sibling brother has taken longer to trust his once-aggressive brother (they remember!), but I can now house them together - although I'm still keeping a careful eye, as this was just over the past 7 days. For the car ride, the bunnies were initially in separate containers, then we put them together for the return journey (about 10 minutes each way). After the journey, I put them both in a small outdoor run on grass (new and neutral patch of lawn), with some suitable 'furniture' inside to give them places to hide if necessary. I had my sons take turns on standby beside the run for the first hour, so they could raise the alarm and intervene if necessary.


I haven't gotten to try a car ride yet - I have been afraid to put them together AT ALL. I have to have two people and a dust pan to prevent a tornado with mine. I may try a ride in carriers separate to start and then transfer them together as you said for the return ride and see if it seems they will keep their aggression at bay. What were your bunnies like BEFORE the ride? Did you have to be RIGHT there all the time?


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## Zekeybun (Oct 26, 2019)

I recently went through the bonding process as well, one year old male and a seven month female, both neutered beforehand. My boy, Zeke, so very outgoing loves attention and people and has been free roam since I rescued him. My girl, Ava, was born at the rescue and had very minimal human interaction- she was very skittish and was overwhelmed at the introduction. She immediately hunkered down when we got her home and wouldn’t budge. They had gone on dates- and at the rescue they went well, but once Zeke was confident and comfortable again he got very aggressive. He had at least touched every room of my house. We tried separate but next to cages but every introduction was a mess. We tried stress bonding but once we put them both in the carrier they broke into a fight. It finally worked for us to do two carriers and then put them together in the smaller of the two. About a week of consistent every day rides that lasted between 20-40 minutes really helped the process and if you’re struggling with a neutral space I ended up carpet cleaning and then spraying every single surface with a water vinegar solution.. the smell lingered for a day or two but helped immensely with the territorial tendencies from my male. I hope that you find the options that work for your buns, it took me almost a month of mixing stress bonding and positive short time in a friends basement but all the stress and frustration is worth it.


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## K1marie (Oct 27, 2019)

Zekeybun said:


> I recently went through the bonding process as well, one year old male and a seven month female, both neutered beforehand. My boy, Zeke, so very outgoing loves attention and people and has been free roam since I rescued him. My girl, Ava, was born at the rescue and had very minimal human interaction- she was very skittish and was overwhelmed at the introduction. She immediately hunkered down when we got her home and wouldn’t budge. They had gone on dates- and at the rescue they went well, but once Zeke was confident and comfortable again he got very aggressive. He had at least touched every room of my house. We tried separate but next to cages but every introduction was a mess. We tried stress bonding but once we put them both in the carrier they broke into a fight. It finally worked for us to do two carriers and then put them together in the smaller of the two. About a week of consistent every day rides that lasted between 20-40 minutes really helped the process and if you’re struggling with a neutral space I ended up carpet cleaning and then spraying every single surface with a water vinegar solution.. the smell lingered for a day or two but helped immensely with the territorial tendencies from my male. I hope that you find the options that work for your buns, it took me almost a month of mixing stress bonding and positive short time in a friends basement but all the stress and frustration is worth it.


That is so encouraging - thanks. I haven't done the car thing - I really had little hope for that to work, but hearing your story - I will definitely give it a try. Can you detail a little more how you handled the car ride? Did you start with two carriers each time and return the trip with them together? I can't imagine putting them both in the same carrier....They could really get a good bite in. How small a carrier ? I have different sizes, just use the smallest?


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## Zekeybun (Oct 27, 2019)

K1marie said:


> That is so encouraging - thanks. I haven't done the car thing - I really had little hope for that to work, but hearing your story - I will definitely give it a try. Can you detail a little more how you handled the car ride? Did you start with two carriers each time and return the trip with them together? I can't imagine putting them both in the same carrier....They could really get a good bite in. How small a carrier ? I have different sizes, just use the smallest?


I will say that I was lucky enough to have a few resources to help, the rescue I went through actually offers to bond rabbits for people but we had such a great start I didn’t think I would need help.. boy was I wrong
I have a 20” dog carrier that I bought specially for this, they’re cramped which is what you want, it’s the fear of hurting themselves that stops them from fighting. I used to use a 35” carrier just for my French lop so he has enough room to spread out. I tried just putting them both in the carrier and immediately picking it up and carrying it to my car, it was already running so the time they were still was as minimal as possible. I then took them on a ride through the neighborhood and to a local strip of road where traffic is pretty constantly moving and the speed picked up they tolerated this well and I had no issues. The second time I tried this from the time I shut the door until I could grab the carrier handle all hell broke lose and my lop suffered a pretty good bite. I think they were on to me too soon..
I ended up rounding my poor boyfriend into helping I would put one rabbit into the smaller carrier and then the other I would either put in the larger carrier, but I found something like a box or even just carrying her to the car worked better as we got the system down. Once I’d hit an area of road where we moved constantly we’d squish the other rabbit in the carrier usual after about 10-15 minutes in the car. I’d find by this point they would both be uneasy enough they wouldn’t mind the other. Then as soon as we were home we’d pick the carrier take them back to their room give treats and separate. Mixing this and a totally clean neutral space we were good friends in about two weeks.
I can say I completely understand the frustration it can be really easy to feel totally lost when you’re trying to do everything right. I would say try something you haven’t yet, it might be just enough to catch them off guard. And of course best of luck and keep us posted!


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## K1marie (Oct 28, 2019)

Zekeybun said:


> I will say that I was lucky enough to have a few resources to help, the rescue I went through actually offers to bond rabbits for people but we had such a great start I didn’t think I would need help.. boy was I wrong
> I have a 20” dog carrier that I bought specially for this, they’re cramped which is what you want, it’s the fear of hurting themselves that stops them from fighting. I used to use a 35” carrier just for my French lop so he has enough room to spread out. I tried just putting them both in the carrier and immediately picking it up and carrying it to my car, it was already running so the time they were still was as minimal as possible. I then took them on a ride through the neighborhood and to a local strip of road where traffic is pretty constantly moving and the speed picked up they tolerated this well and I had no issues. The second time I tried this from the time I shut the door until I could grab the carrier handle all hell broke lose and my lop suffered a pretty good bite. I think they were on to me too soon..
> I ended up rounding my poor boyfriend into helping I would put one rabbit into the smaller carrier and then the other I would either put in the larger carrier, but I found something like a box or even just carrying her to the car worked better as we got the system down. Once I’d hit an area of road where we moved constantly we’d squish the other rabbit in the carrier usual after about 10-15 minutes in the car. I’d find by this point they would both be uneasy enough they wouldn’t mind the other. Then as soon as we were home we’d pick the carrier take them back to their room give treats and separate. Mixing this and a totally clean neutral space we were good friends in about two weeks.
> I can say I completely understand the frustration it can be really easy to feel totally lost when you’re trying to do everything right. I would say try something you haven’t yet, it might be just enough to catch them off guard. And of course best of luck and keep us posted!


Thank you and everyone for sharing their experience. I will update when I have some news to share - hopefully good news!!


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## Flakes (Oct 28, 2019)

Have you thought about renting a hotel room for a night as a neutral area. Not only would the car ride over be scary but I doubt either bunny has been to the local holiday inn (or whatever)


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## Allen Wrider (Oct 28, 2019)

Emma Nelson said:


> I took my 2 male brother bunnies for a car ride, it really helped: the aggressive brother started grooming his sibling, it was astonishing. Sibling brother has taken longer to trust his once-aggressive brother (they remember!), but I can now house them together - although I'm still keeping a careful eye, as this was just over the past 7 days. For the car ride, the bunnies were initially in separate containers, then we put them together for the return journey (about 10 minutes each way). After the journey, I put them both in a small outdoor run on grass (new and neutral patch of lawn), with some suitable 'furniture' inside to give them places to hide if necessary. I had my sons take turns on standby beside the run for the first hour, so they could raise the alarm and intervene if necessary.



That actually sounds like it'd work well. I'm going to try the washer idea, since it's easier for me to do that alone, but maybe I can get help in a car from someone...


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## Allen Wrider (Oct 28, 2019)

Flakes said:


> Have you thought about renting a hotel room for a night as a neutral area. Not only would the car ride over be scary but I doubt either bunny has been to the local holiday inn (or whatever)


Lol I could try that??? I guess? Problem being that Skippy kind of goes to the bathroom everywhere though. She's litter trained but not very well.


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## Flakes (Oct 28, 2019)

Poops are no big deal. Hell bring your vacuum and increase the anxiety training. You could also bring a cheap tarp and lay it over one of the beds.


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## Allen Wrider (Oct 28, 2019)

UPDATE:

So, I've discovered that Quinn is not afraid of the vacuum. She attributes it to a cleaner cage and thus permits the hose to be in her space, even touching it with her nose when I moved it by her box (where she was calmly eating). Skippy, however, is terrified of it, and even thumps at it when it's near her. I don't know how this will affect an attempt at stress bonding with the vacuum as a factor?


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## Flakes (Oct 28, 2019)

Have you considered renting a bear costume?


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## Allen Wrider (Oct 28, 2019)

Flakes said:


> Have you considered renting a bear costume?


I'm crying omg :'D Quinn would bite me


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## Allen Wrider (Oct 28, 2019)

I tried my first stress bonding session, as suggested, and it went really well! They sat together on top of the dryer in a basket while it was running, huddled up at one another's side. A couple times, they tried to climb out using the other as a stepping stone, but neither harbored ill intent. They stayed like that for roughly 15 minutes before I attempted a regular bond... using the bathtub for the first time I put a towel at one end and them at the other, so that they had to slip and slide their way over to the towel. They cuddled together once there, and Skippy even gave Quinn a few licks -- HER FIRST GROOM. 

As they calmed down and sought safety in each other, I was able to add a small handful of fresh lettuce. At first, only Skippy ate, but when she was "done" and walked away, Quinn began to eat. They ended up having a few nibbles together. 

It did get a bit dicey at the end. Once Skippy found her courage again, she gave Quin a single nip and they ended up face to face a couple times with ears back.... but overall, it was positive and they didn't truly fight. I'm really excited for this breakthrough!￼


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## Flakes (Oct 28, 2019)

which is which? And so no bear costume?


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## Allen Wrider (Oct 28, 2019)

Flakes said:


> which is which?


Skippy is the brown and white one, and Quinn is the pure white. Quinn is about a year and a half old, and I've had her since she was barely old enough to eat. Skippy is only about 6-7 months I think, and has thus far been the aggressor in their problems.


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## Flakes (Oct 28, 2019)

They are both adorable, though not quite as suave and debonaire as my Dortmund.


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## Allen Wrider (Oct 28, 2019)

Flakes said:


> They are both adorable, though not quite as suave and debonaire as my Dortmund.


He's a dashing lad. I love his coloring


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## Imbrium (Oct 29, 2019)

Wow, been busy at work and this thread really took off while I was away! Bear with me while I catch up...



Flakes said:


> Have you thought about renting a hotel room for a night as a neutral area. Not only would the car ride over be scary but I doubt either bunny has been to the local holiday inn (or whatever)


@Flakes omg, I'm laughing my butt off at all your posts! I love your attitude... a sense of humor really helps when bonding bunnies! That, and sometimes there's a good bit of truth to be found in seeming absurdity .



K1marie said:


> I haven't gotten to try a car ride yet - I have been afraid to put them together AT ALL. I have to have two people and a dust pan to prevent a tornado with mine.


@K1marie If putting them together is like spontaneous combustion, then things have gotten very far off on the wrong track. It sounds like they're harboring grudges and animosity from all their previous altercations and it's gotten them to the point of "attack on sight".

Where things seem to be at with your pair, it is... let's just say 'statistically improbable' that you can get from where you are to a happily bonded pair without a full reboot. This means different rooms and zero interaction (not even seeing each other from across a room) for about a month. That's about how long it takes for them to forget all those negative feelings they have towards each other. After that, you'd start the entire bonding process over from scratch as though they'd never even met before.

There's definitely no harm in trying stress bonding before resorting to a reboot, of course... just giving you my blunt opinion that I wouldn't get too hopeful about it in your case (after rebooting them, it can be a great way to restart the process though).



Allen Wrider said:


> UPDATE:
> So, I've discovered that Quinn is not afraid of the vacuum. She attributes it to a cleaner cage and thus permits the hose to be in her space, even touching it with her nose when I moved it by her box (where she was calmly eating). Skippy, however, is terrified of it, and even thumps at it when it's near her. I don't know how this will affect an attempt at stress bonding with the vacuum as a factor?


With the primary aggressor more willing to bond to the vacuum than the other bunny, I'm thinking you should disregard everything I've said about vacuum cleaners . I wonder if a hair dryer would have a different effect (near but not on the bunnies, I mean)?

I'm thrilled to hear that your bunns seem to have turned a corner! Make sure to end every session on a positive note, especially if there was any minor scuffle or nip. I usually press the bunns together, pet them simultaneously and give a treat or two before everyone gets put up.



K1marie said:


> Can you detail a little more how you handled the car ride? Did you start with two carriers each time and return the trip with them together? I can't imagine putting them both in the same carrier....They could really get a good bite in.



I realize these questions weren't directed at me, but I'm gonna give my answers anyway .

I've never been comfortable putting them inside a carrier for stress bonding, because they're trapped together in a way that can make human intervention both difficult and dangerous (though type of carrier can make a big difference here). Not only that, but if they're fully confined, it's hard to see their body language and catch/redirect negative expressions before they lead to actual nipping or fighting. The exception is we've sometimes allowed bunnies to get into an open-topped carrier together under strict supervision when the trip was going well.

When hubby and I go for a stress-bonding drive, we haul all rabbits to the car in cat carriers (or cardboard carriers leftover from adoptions) - Harley and Barnaby in one together because they're a bonded pair, and then Alice and Nala by themselves. 

Husband sits to one side in the backseat (as opposed to the center seat). Towel goes down over the back seat (for both pee and traction purposes) and then four rabbits get plopped down in the seat together. Carriers go up front and on the floorboard (closed) so that they're out of the way and inaccessible (and block the rabbits from getting on the floor in the backseat or, worse, under the seats). Hubby's job is - hopefully - minimal. He'll nudge rabbits together and pet them a bit to get the party started and then sit back and watch. If someone (*cough* Alice) starts instigating fights, they go into the front seat with me for a time out.

Usually we drive around for a little bit and then end up at Petsmart, Petco and/or Tractor Supply. The towel from the back seat gets folded in half and lines the shopping cart (to cushion their little feet from the bottom of the cart)... and then in go four rabbits. We take some laps around the store and the bunnies get attention here and there but also get to just interact with each other in the semi-stressful environment of a moving cart and a strange store that smells like unknown animals (and sometimes involves an adoptable cat staring at them in fascination from their cage, lol).

I dunno how the pet stores slipped my mind when I was making stress-bonding suggestions - they're perfect if you don't have a second person to ride in the backseat with the bunnies. Just keep them in separate carriers in the car and combine them in the cart where you can give them your full attention.

We take bunnies on outings to the store one (or bonded pair) at a time sometimes, too... in particular, when someone starts getting too big for their britches. A brief excursion to remind them that the outside world exists provides a very effective 'attitude adjustment' when someone gets too entitled and demandsing (yes, I did spell that wrong on purpose... inside joke and a hard habit to break, lol).


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## Allen Wrider (Oct 29, 2019)

Imbrium said:


> Wow, been busy at work and this thread really took off while I was away! Bear with me while I catch up...
> 
> 
> @Flakes omg, I'm laughing my butt off at all your posts! I love your attitude... a sense of humor really helps when bonding bunnies! That, and sometimes there's a good bit of truth to be found in seeming absurdity .
> ...



Glad you're back and got to see all the fun additions to my thread! I stuck tonight's bonding videos in their own Google folder, so you can see the progress they made. It's looking good!

As a side note, it's actually the rabbit less likely to instigate who gives no care toward the vacuum. The one who seems to be nippy and chase-y hates it 
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=194aQTC__kyFcr5JSDhfoyegIpJ5uXlz-


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## Imbrium (Oct 29, 2019)

Oh, whoops, I got them mixed up! In that case, that actually really works to your benefit - you can unsettle the fire-starter without upsetting the more nervous bunny.

Just got done watching the videos... couldn't hear much of what you were saying on the long one because hubby's asleep in the same room as me and I don't wanna turn it up too much or pause the rain sounds 'cause either option will wake him up. I got the gist of it, though... the way you were talking (both to them and to yourself/the camera) reminded me SO much of myself when filming bonding sessions in the past . Also, I melted when I realized you had one red-eyed bunny and one blue-eyed (don't know how I overlooked the blue eyes last week)! Our bonded pair has that combo - Barnaby (Californian, so mostly white w/red eyes and sable tips) and Harley Quinn (mismarked Dutch with blue eyes) and after nearly 8 months with them, I still can't get enough.

Here's my evaluation of the videos:

I like the way you're within arm's reach to play a role without putting yourself in the middle of things - I saw a great balance between being involved and staying out of the way (basically being a chaperone without being a third wheel). The small space + mildly stressful environment of the tub definitely seems to be doing the trick. Their body language towards each other is improving greatly and you did an *excellent* job of spotting and redirecting those naughty impulses with a gentle pet so that they didn't have a chance to escalate. They're unsure about each other and haven't worked out dominance yet (like when they're both putting their head down and asking for grooming at times) but they both have an open mind about the other rabbit - that's the momentum you want to build on.

Later on, you'll have to give them more space and let them work out minor issues on their own... but for now, I would stick with a slow-track bonding style and continue to do short-to-medium length (15 mins to an hour) bathtub sessions at least 2-3 days a week. As sessions go more smoothly, you can lengthen them. When it gets to the point where you feel comfortable leaving them unattended in the bathroom for a few minutes at a time (while you're still near enough to hear if something starts to happen), it's time to figure out a way to set up a larger but still neutral bonding area (back to the kitchen or a portion of it, perhaps) and try introducing a litter box, hay supply, etc. again.

All-in-all, the videos from today look significantly more promising than the ones from last week . I think you guys are really on the right track now.


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## K1marie (Oct 29, 2019)

@Imbrium I am absolutely going to try your suggestion of a "reboot" if what I am doing now doesn't pan out. Your desciption of "spontaneous combustion" is very accurate. Since I have started all this and run into such difficulties - I have kept 2 rooms in my house (upstairs bedrooms completely excluded from the buns) They go up my wood stairs (which I find very funny) bc after 10 yrs with my other buns NEVER tried the stairs - though my whole house had wood floors) But I have kept the doors closed to those rooms and they would definitely be neutral for both of them. I feel terrible they would be so excluded - behind a closed door with no foot traffic, but I will definitely spend as much mommy time with them a possible. Should I keep a robe in each room - and just throw on that robe when I go in and visit them? Otherwise they will keep smelling the other one on me. I know may people its cruel to try to bond these two, but know neither has suffered ANY injury - I am very cautious. I will eventually have to throw in the towel if it doesn't work after I have exhausted every option, but I would have to re-home one - and I know they would both have an amazing home if I they could stay with me.


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## Allen Wrider (Oct 29, 2019)

Imbrium said:


> Oh, whoops, I got them mixed up! In that case, that actually really works to your benefit - you can unsettle the fire-starter without upsetting the more nervous bunny.
> 
> Just got done watching the videos... couldn't hear much of what you were saying on the long one because hubby's asleep in the same room as me and I don't wanna turn it up too much or pause the rain sounds 'cause either option will wake him up. I got the gist of it, though... the way you were talking (both to them and to yourself/the camera) reminded me SO much of myself when filming bonding sessions in the past . Also, I melted when I realized you had one red-eyed bunny and one blue-eyed (don't know how I overlooked the blue eyes last week)! Our bonded pair has that combo - Barnaby (Californian, so mostly white w/red eyes and sable tips) and Harley Quinn (mismarked Dutch with blue eyes) and after nearly 8 months with them, I still can't get enough.
> 
> ...


Funnily enough, they actually both have blue eyes like me. It's just that the flash reflects off their pupils. But wouldn't that have been a cool coincidence? 

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to the prospect of housing them together. Quinn is still very unsure of Skippy, since this was the first session where she wasn't being bitten or chased, but hopefully I can get more sessions in like that, and they can get on a better track. It's relieving that I didn't have to give up on them, because I spent a lot of time working Skippy back up to "human touch friendly". To give her up now would kill me.


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## krbshappy71 (Oct 29, 2019)

Allen Wrider said:


> Lol I could try that??? I guess? Problem being that Skippy kind of goes to the bathroom everywhere though. She's litter trained but not very well.


Maybe put down newspapers, and potty pads under the newspapers (if supervising them, wouldn't leave them alone in the room with potty pads down) around the hotel room? I don't worry so much about the poop but the pee will get into the carpets. Bring a few baby gates you may be able to have them in the bathroom which is usually tile, and maybe the foyer of the hotel room will be tile as well.


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## Allen Wrider (Oct 29, 2019)

Dang, all the progress from last night is gone y'all. Skippy bit Quinn on the head twice while they were visiting at the fence this morning, which in turn caused Quinn to pull out Tufts of fur when Skippy turned her butt to the fence. I threw some fresh hay at them to get them to separate, but that's really discouraging....


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## Flakes (Oct 29, 2019)

I think you might have to anxiety bond them every day for a little while. Other than that no contact should be had between the two. But I should also stress that I don't know what I'm talking about.


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## Flakes (Oct 29, 2019)




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## Allen Wrider (Oct 29, 2019)

Flakes said:


> View attachment 43723


You're killing me omg


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## Imbrium (Oct 29, 2019)

Allen Wrider said:


> Funnily enough, they actually both have blue eyes like me. It's just that the flash reflects off their pupils. But wouldn't that have been a cool coincidence?


I did go back and forth trying to decide if I was seeing blue or red, lol! Is it a lighter blue on her? On red eyes, they're red on the pupil but when the iris contracts in brighter environments, it's actually whitish/light pink... I couldn't tell on camera if I was seeing that or another blue eyed rabbit (since pure white rabbits can have either color). Regardless, blue eyed bunnies make me melt!



Allen Wrider said:


> Dang, all the progress from last night is gone y'all. Skippy bit Quinn on the head twice while they were visiting at the fence this morning, which in turn caused Quinn to pull out Tufts of fur when Skippy turned her butt to the fence. I threw some fresh hay at them to get them to separate, but that's really discouraging....



They need to be separated by more than a single fence between bonding sessions right now. Either their fences an inch or two apart or line the bottom foot or so with something to stop noses from getting through (coroplast, a couple layers of cardboard (though that may not work if someone chews a lot), hardware cloth, chicken wire, boards, whatever you can come up with). As you saw this morning, access to nip through fencing can swiftly undo any progress you're making. Fix the fence situation and go back to stress bonding (at least 15 min per session and at least every other day) and you should be able to regain the lost ground.


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## A & B (Oct 29, 2019)

I've been following this thread since it was started but I thought I'd butt in and share my thoughts especially because I see a lot of my bunnies in yours.

For starters, I've attempted to bond my male with two different females and neither bond worked out. Being around other bunnies makes him jumpy when he's usually a very confident boy. I've accepted he's better off alone. The first female was swapped out after a fight that Bugs got hurt pretty badly during and I felt it wasn't fair that she was double his size and being a bully. My second female and Bugs did amazing at first (kisses all the time, snuggles, all the good stuff) then she began to get more and more humpy despite whatever I tried. He didn't like this and one day he just snapped. He ended up biting her directly above her eye and broke the skin after a nasty tussle. This happened to be the night before move-in day during their second sleepover.

If I understand correctly, the white one is the original bun? In your videos, I've noticed they don't seem to hate each other but they don't seem in love yet either. You seem incredibly calm! During my first attempt, I was terrified. I kept the oven mitts on the whole time and freaked out whenever they moved. The positive vibes I'm getting from just watching the videos are rubbing off on them which is helping them calm down a lot! I wonder if it's possible original bun is being protective of you. I definitely felt this during bonding.

I agree with @Imbrium that they should not be able to bite each other at all through the pens. I've seen pictures of sweet little bunny noses that were scarred and just not great looking after incidents like you experienced earlier. I have chicken wire wrapped around my pens to stop nipping. It looks pretty tacky but it works.

Persistence is key with bonding. Enforce good behavior with treats and veggies and end fighting/negative nipping by forcing them to snuggle next to each other and stroke them for as long as you can. Remember you know your bunnies best. It seems yours just need time to get to know each other more. I like to think of it as two completely different people being forced to marry each other. First, they're completely against it and slowly they realize the other person isn't actually that bad and then eventually they fall in love. Good luck and keep the videos coming! I found your voice soothing, lol.

@K1marie I don't know how you haven't given up. You're incredibly patient and I hope everything works out for you and your buns sooner than later.

@Flakes you have an amazing sense of humor!


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## Allen Wrider (Oct 30, 2019)

Alyssa and Bugs♡ said:


> If I understand correctly, the white one is the original bun? In your videos, I've noticed they don't seem to hate each other but they don't seem in love yet either. You seem incredibly calm! During my first attempt, I was terrified. I kept the oven mitts on the whole time and freaked out whenever they moved. The positive vibes I'm getting from just watching the videos are rubbing off on them which is helping them calm down a lot! I wonder if it's possible original bun is being protective of you. I definitely felt this during bonding.



Haha, the calmness didn't come easy. Quinn (the white rabbit) actually ran to me and bit my hand during their first meet. On purpose! But after that, she hasn't bitten me, not once. She seems to recognize that I'm not something that will attack her, even when in fight or flight mode during their encounters, and she will literally roll her whole body away from my hand if I put it in between them during a fight. As a result, I don't feel the need for extra protection (and after yesterday's bonding sesh I think there won't be TOO much more fighting).


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## Allen Wrider (Oct 30, 2019)

Hey guys is it normal for one rabbit to lightly nip another and ask for attention? Because I'm doing tonight's stress bond and Skippy is very lightly nipping Quinn's foot to ask for cuddles.


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## Flakes (Oct 30, 2019)

Dortmund has nibbled me a couple times. I’m convinced he sees me as very large rabbit. So far (and I’ve been tempted) I haven’t nibbled him back. Maybe you should try lightly biting skips foot to see what happens.


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## Allen Wrider (Oct 30, 2019)

Flakes said:


> Dortmund has nibbled me a couple times. I’m convinced he sees me as very large rabbit. So far (and I’ve been tempted) I haven’t nibbled him back. Maybe you should try lightly biting skips foot to see what happens.


I actually have no idea lol but that reminds me of that scene in Snow Dogs where everyone was just like "bite that dog on the ear! Show him who's boss!"

As a side note Skippy wtf are you doing


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## Imbrium (Oct 30, 2019)

Allen Wrider said:


> Hey guys is it normal for one rabbit to lightly nip another and ask for attention? Because I'm doing tonight's stress bond and Skippy is very lightly nipping Quinn's foot to ask for cuddles.



Nipping like that is a normal form of communication between rabbits... Usually directed at a rabbit that the biting rabbit thinks is lower on the hierarchy. Sometimes the more submissive rabbit will tolerate it... Other times it can start a fight... If it's just one nip and doesn't escalate, let it happen without interrupting. That's something they'll eventually need to work out for themselves anyway before they can be a fully bonded pair.



Flakes said:


> Dortmund has nibbled me a couple times. I’m convinced he sees me as very large rabbit. So far (and I’ve been tempted) I haven’t nibbled him back.


Husband taught me the concept that rabbits who nip their humans should be nipped back. It is shockingly effective because you're speaking their language.



Allen Wrider said:


> As a side note Skippy wtf are you doingView attachment 43728



I actually made a "shaming" pic tonight very similar to that.


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## Allen Wrider (Oct 30, 2019)

Imbrium said:


> Nipping like that is a normal form of communication between rabbits... Usually directed at a rabbit that the biting rabbit thinks is lower on the hierarchy. Sometimes the more submissive rabbit will tolerate it... Other times it can start a fight... If it's just one nip and doesn't escalate, let it happen without interrupting. That's something they'll eventually need to work out for themselves anyway before they can be a fully bonded pair.



It unfortunately turned into a bit of a biting match in the bathtub. Quinn decided she didn't like being nipped at so they ended up circling and biting one another. I need to do other stressors besides just the dryer in a basket, they get used to it too quickly...


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## Flakes (Nov 6, 2019)

How goes the bond8ng?


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## K1marie (Nov 6, 2019)

haha - JUST about to post how things have been going. Here is what I have been doing the last 4 days. First To refresh - Murphy (lop) is the one with the Kung Fu moves but doesn't just bite unless they get in a tornado - which I haven't given them an opportunity for in several weeks. Little Lionel seems insecure and is proactive in biting Murphy when they would get together. I have been making them cuddle & hold a cooling rack between to avoid biting - then switch cages every night. I started trying the car. Tonight is night 5. I have been sitting in the back seat with the boys in two carriers for a 10 min ride. After 10 min - I join the two in the larger carrier (cuz thats the one that opens on the top) but have put a pillow at one end - so its a little snugger & they need to stay fairly close , not smooshed. though can still manage to turn front to back (or should they not be able to) . Murphy def seems to want comfort but he's also kind of restless cuz he know the top opens and he keeps looking to escape - but is refraining from his kung fu moves, but doesn't lay down. Lionel ends up laying down. Neither really seek to snuggle eachother. I am too worried about Lionel randomly biting Murph in those close quarters - especially when I push Murphy close to him. To be safe, I put some treats in Lionels treat cup (a 1 oz plastic cup) and he keeps his nose in it like a little muzzle and randomly chews some treats. It slowly comes off, but I just kind of adjust it so its around him so he doesn't turn and bite Murph. HE DOES NOT MIND THIS - they both get treats in little cups that I let them dig out themselves as a game and they have their noses in these cups all the time WILLINGLY with total control. I am just keeping this on for 15 min in the car to start and will totally remove it for the last couple rides. I am just trying to avoid an injury. While they are together - I pet the little spot on their head they love and they are calm while I do this....I am wondering if I should be doing that or not though? Am taking the place of the other buns job or do I want to do this to keep them calm? If Lionel seems to want to comfort Murph, I will get the cup out of the way - I obviously will need to try this with no cup soon and just keep my hand right there and see what happens. I may lose a finger, but I don't know how else to proceed. Last night after the ride, I brought the carrier up to a neutral bathroom and just left the end open. They both happened to be facing away from the opening ....Murphy meandered out after a minute or two and slowly warmed up walking around looking for something to chew. Lionel just stayed put, eventually turned around and after a few more minutes started to slowly emerge. I wanted to end everything calmly - so at this point (5-7 min in) we returned them to their cages. My plan for tonight will be to do the same - are they ready to take the cup out of the equation ? and maybe let them have 10 min together after ... let them approach each other? I am open for suggestions .... No one has actually posted the exacts steps & amts of time for each phase - so not sure if I am missing something that may help.


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## Imbrium (Nov 6, 2019)

It's important to trust your instincts, as every bonding is different and you're the best expert on your own bunnies . Try to stay confident even if you have to fake it - bunns pick up on nervous energy from their humans. It sounds like you're doing a good job so far and have sound instincts. Worst case scenario, you make a mistake and they fight... so you back up a step or two in order to get things back on track. We all make little mistakes in bonding sometimes, but one way or another, it's always fixable.

What I'm getting at is that there is no "exact steps and amounts of time" because that depends on your specific bunnies. If they seem nervous about each other, slow down... if they seem comfortable with things so far, move forward.


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## K1marie (Nov 6, 2019)

Yes, I'm trying to take baby steps and only go ahead when it seems right. They have both remained adorable and loving to me, so they don't hate me yet. I'll post the next update when there is anything of interest.


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## Flakes (Nov 6, 2019)

Maybe Lionel is feeling insecure. Have you considered getting him a dapper little hat to wear to make him feel better about himself.


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## Imbrium (Nov 6, 2019)

Flakes said:


> Maybe Lionel is feeling insecure. Have you considered getting him a dapper little hat to wear to make him feel better about himself.


 Hilarious... And yet there's some truth to the statement, lol. Rabbits definitely vary in intelligence (and iq) in my experience. Some rabbits quite clearly have lower self-esteem than others.


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## K1marie (Nov 7, 2019)

I agree - thought not sure the hat is the solution. Maybe if I give him a bigger mane he will feel more like Lionel King! I kind of I DO think that why he takes the "proactive" bite. Last night we had our 5th car ride, I took his treat cup off him after only a couple of min when I knew nothing would break out (hasn't yet on the ride - but he's also been wearing it) We got home and I carried the carrier into the bathroom, I opened the end up -they stayed next to each other (facing away from us) again for a few minutes. Murphy climbed OVER Lionel to get out and Lionel didn't react. After about 5 minutes Lionel came out. Murphy was again roaming around looking for trouble, but cautiously. They kind of ignored each other...then got close and jumped around a bit - but I didn't let them get into it (it didn't seem too bad, but I couldn't let it get too negative , so I did intervene at that point and spread them apart again. They had another same type encounter....(where again I intervened) it definitely wasn't an instant toranado - maybe more testing eachother...but I couldn't take the chance at this stage yet. I know they WILL have to work it out themselves, but I dont want to go there yet. I waited until they were again ignoring each other and seemed okay and then removed them to their cages for some treats. Car ride #6 tonight.


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## Imbrium (Nov 7, 2019)

A good next step may be to forgo the carrier and let them have some space to move around in the backseat with you, as well as perhaps lengthening the duration of the car rides (how long have you been driving around for?).


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## K1marie (Nov 7, 2019)

I was wondering if anyone had done that.... no one has made that suggestion - but I almost felt like I should try that. If I can get out with them before it gets too dark to easily read them - maybe tonight! Thanks for sticking with me on this. Its really trial and error - as you said every bun is different ... but it sure helps getting input and bouncing ideas off someone. Thank you.


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## Imbrium (Nov 8, 2019)

When we do car ride bonding it's four rotten rabbits and one rotten husband loose in the backseat . If someone (*glares at Alice*) gets feisty and starts trouble, they get a time out with me up front for a few minutes. We often end up at the pet store... I put a towel in the bottom of the cart to cushion their feet and we do some laps around the store, looking at the other animals and letting a few strangers pet our quad. Even Alice behaves in the cart.


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## Allen Wrider (Nov 12, 2019)

Hey everyone, quick update:

Quinn and Skippy's bonding had a major setback two nights ago and tonight. My aunt brought her two very high maintenance dogs by without ample warning. These two dogs ar not calm and have never interacted with any other type of animal, let alone rabbits. The bigger of the two whined and pawed at the cages and Skippy, who was under a great deal of stress and not used to a dog being so energetic, actually lept clear out of her side of the pen. She jumped a good 5 feet in the air and had a rough landing (all appears to be well), and the dog proceeded to chase her throughout the house.

I caught her and she began screaming in fear, and the sound unfortunately distressed Quinn a great deal. Now she's attacking Skippy or charging at the separator whenever they see each other. I think she's mad that Skippy "got out"? I can't tell. But she's being very aggressive with Skippy and constantly growling and biting at her through the bars. Thank God I put a separation up.

I'm at an honest loss, they're both really stressed by what happened.


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## K1marie (Nov 13, 2019)

Oh, sorry to hear. That is so sad for poor Skippy (and Quinn). Its hard enough working on the bonding WITHOUT the extra drama. So Quinn sensed the extreme fear in Skippy and is connecting Skippy to that negative outbreak? What is happening today?


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## Flakes (Nov 13, 2019)

This scares me a bit. I’m visiting my sister in St petersburg florida over the holidays, and they have a dog. Plus my parents are bringing their dog.

my sister assures me that Sasha (her dog) is just a big sweetie and will be oblivious about Dortmund’s presence. But my Parent’s dog was a rescue that was abandoned and had taken to hunting squirrels and small animals before the humane society caught her and adopted her out to my parents. Millie may be old, arthritic, and half blind due to cataracts, but she is a hunter.


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## K1marie (Nov 13, 2019)

My parents dog loves to chase squirrels and birds and he would have loved to chase my last rabbit, but my rabbit kind of ignored him so he got bored and gave up on him. It will probably depend a lot how Dortmund reacts to the dogs as to how they react to him - though I would error on the side of caution and make sure they are watched around eachother. I wouldn't let him loose together.


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## Flakes (Nov 13, 2019)

Yeah, I’ve already laid out some ground rules with my sister. 

Dortmund is staying in his cage for the first two days I ‘m there — he will probably be traumatized by the 20 hour car ride already, no need to add people poking at him.

Dortmund has the top floor, the doggos have the first floor. 

Kids can only play with the bunny under my supervision.

I’ve already tracked down a Rabbit Friendly 24 hour emergency vet in St. Petersburg and his address and phone is in mine and my sister’s contacts.

someone said that on the drive I should take him out of his pet crate every couple of hours to let him hop around. Not sure how to do this on such a long drive in the winter. Do I stop off at restaurants and say “I’ll have a burger and my rabbit will have the salad bar” I do have a rabbit leash and dortmund does have an appetite.


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## Allen Wrider (Nov 14, 2019)

K1marie said:


> Oh, sorry to hear. That is so sad for poor Skippy (and Quinn). Its hard enough working on the bonding WITHOUT the extra drama. So Quinn sensed the extreme fear in Skippy and is connecting Skippy to that negative outbreak? What is happening today?



I took them out of their cages separately to have a good run. Quinn is a little calmer today but I'll need to do some serious stress bonding to get them back to where they were. 

There's a rabbit specialty shop about 35-40 mins out from where I live, and I'm considering taking them in the car, though I'd need help to get them there without incident. It's a real struggle....


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## Allen Wrider (Feb 11, 2020)

Well, everyone, I am BACK. I am sad to say that I lost almost all their bonding progress over Christmas. Everything was hectic, I got and lost a job in the same month, went to Arizona for 4 days, and my car has been in and out of the shop for numerous things. 

Overall, the bonding time was sparse to none, and when I took them out to do some practicing, it turned into a full blown bunny tornado. Quinn has become the full aggressor, compared to Skippy's miniscule nips, she has been actively chasing and looking to tear fur. Luckily there have been no injuries, but Quinn has decided that she's not going to tolerate Skippy in her space for more than a few minutes at a time, and I'm very scared to put them together again.

I know it was due to outside circumstances and my own issues, but I'm incredibly upset. Skippy and I have made so much progress with her fears and she really feels like "my rabbit" now. It's far too late to give her up, but I'm afraid that I won't be able to provide the life she needs with Quinn's aggression.


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## K1marie (Feb 12, 2020)

Sorry to hear how rough its been. In your situation I would hope that its maybe the stressful period you'be been going thru that has your buns acting out?..... They sense all this stuff. I wouldn't throw in the towel yet after such an upheaval on he homefront. I am not ready to update every on my bonding status yet....Murphy and Lionel have been housed on separate floors of the house since New Years Day. I am going to wait it out longer yet before I reintroduce them. They are both JUST over 1 year old - and close in age - so I am hoping that allowing them some more time to "grow up" .... get past their teenager stage may help. Murphy actually IS ready I believe, Lionel is still to insecure.


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