# Is this cage ok ?



## maisy&layla (Jul 8, 2012)

This is the cage that I have for my rabbit. Does it have everything she needs ? and is there enough space etc ? 

She has;
a house with straw for sleep/naps.
Watter bottle
daisy chain(wood) to chew and play
Carrot(wood) to chew/play
Purple tennis ball
food bowl
Litter box


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## BunMommaD (Jul 8, 2012)

Looks good! I found when we first brought our boy home that by putting hay in other places around the cage he would "go" where ever it was... So we started putting all of his hay in his litter box! And he has perfect litter box habits now  he has a little blanket he can curl up with to sleep  

Love his little face! What a cutie


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## ZRabbits (Jul 8, 2012)

I think if I was a bunny, it would be everything I could ever want. Plus with time out with Mom, best way to live a bunny life. 

Oh BTW, nice choice on the crate. We have three of them and our bunnies enjoy their space. No problem. 41 inches is plenty. Plus they get out every day for a run. They are all very content. 

K


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## Nelsons_Mom (Jul 8, 2012)

As a baby, I think it should be fine. 

Growing, I would try to upgrade to a Xpen or NIC cage. Minimum rabbit caging should be 3X the body length of them laying completely straight out and for them to be able to do a full hop 4 times. Also, they need to be able to completely stand on their hind legs. 

To make this easier, the ASPCA has mandated that the minimum cage requirement for a small/medium sized rabbit is 4ftX2ftX2ft. 

So, I'd give her another month or two in there before upgrading. Or, an easy way to do it is to buy an Xpen that you can put around the cage and leave the door open all of the time. That way you get your money's worth. (Store bought cages are UNBELIEVABLY expensive for how small and poorly made they are.)

But, it looks really good on the toy front! You certainly made use of the space that she does have.


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## Nelsons_Mom (Jul 8, 2012)

One thing I would do though, is to put down a towel or a fleece blanket instead of the wood shavings. She will litter train a lot faster, and it will save you a TON of money since you can just pop it in the wash instead of keep having to buy more bedding.


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## ZRabbits (Jul 8, 2012)

*Nelsons_Mom wrote: *


> As a baby, I think it should be fine.
> 
> Growing, I would try to upgrade to a Xpen or NIC cage. Minimum rabbit caging should be 3X the body length of them laying completely straight out and for them to be able to do a full hop 4 times. Also, they need to be able to completely stand on their hind legs.
> 
> ...


That's true by the ASPCA standard, but I have adults in that type of cage and they have no problems with standing, hopping and stretching out. Plus with the extra time out, I have no problems. Very healthy, happy rabbits. 

And I don't know where you buy your crates, but mine have stood up and they are built in the USA, coded and the bottoms are high molded plastic which is very easy to clean. And inexpensive. 

41 inches for a rabbit is more than efficient by several inches. I have proof. Got them all right here. Just read my blog. 

K


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## maisy&layla (Jul 8, 2012)

Thanks people. she is very small as she is only 10 weeks old, also she is a mini lop. 

My partner and I have her out for at least 4-5 hours week days and at the weekend she is out for a good 8 hours or sometimes more. If we are in the house then we allow her out to run and play. 

I will be looking into building my own Nix style cage to give her more space and we MIGHT get her a friend.


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## ZRabbits (Jul 8, 2012)

*maisy&layla wrote: *


> Thanks people. she is very small as she is only 10 weeks old, also she is a mini lop.
> 
> My partner and I have her out for at least 4-5 hours week days and at the weekend she is out for a good 8 hours or sometimes more. If we are in the house then we allow her out to run and play.
> 
> I will be looking into building my own Nix style cage to give her more space and we MIGHT get her a friend.


Just make sure you use wire ties. Plenty of people on here who's rabbits have escaped. Make sure it's secured to the floor. You would be surprised how strong a bunny is. 

Also make sure it has a top. Bunnies do climb. Lots of unexpected pregnancies due to that. Know one who's bunny got out and wreaked havoc. 

Just a word of advise. From what I've seen and read here. 

K


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## maisy&layla (Jul 8, 2012)

Yes would have a top as she likes to climb and jump and can jump pretty high!


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## Nelsons_Mom (Jul 8, 2012)

I wanna point out that this is not directed at the OP who wants to learn what other options are out there and bought her cage before anyone else could have guided her in a money-saving direction. THIS IS JUST GENERAL KNOWLEDGE THAT ALL RABBIT OWNERS SHOULD CONSIDER. I am posting it in response to the misinformation that has been floating around recently.

What I said about sizing in previous posts not a matter of my personal opinion. ALL of the leading rabbit care sites agree with me. Unless your rabbits are out for eight hours a day, cages such as that for full grown rabbits are TOO SMALL. Which is why care sites ALL warn prospective rabbit owners to steer away from store-bought cages. Especially, since for the same price, you can make one with wood or NIC cubes twice the size. Even Xpens are twice if not three times the size for the same price.

House Rabbit Society:

"A cage should be at least 4 times the size of your bunny when he's entirely stretched out--more if he is confined for a large amount of the day." 

"at least 8 square feet of cage time combined with at least at least 24 square feet of exercise space, for 1-2 rabbits, in which the rabbit(s) can run and play at least 5 hours per day."


The Rabbit House:

"A relaxed rabbit will fully stretch out when resting. The rabbit hutch should be wide enough to allow you rabbit to lie with its legs stretched. This allows for plenty of room to turn around in the hutch too.

A width of 2' (60cm) is recommended for small to medium sized rabbits and 3' (90cm) for large to giant breeds."

"The rabbit hutch should be long enough for the rabbit to take atleast 3-4 hops without bumping its nose on the end."

"A minimum length of 6' (180cm) is recommended for a hutch, though this can be slightly flexible providing the hutch is permanently attached to a run giving access to a large area 24/7."

"The RWA (UK) recommend a minimum hutch size of 6' x 2' x 2' to meet the duty of care requirements under the animal welfare act. With the addition of an exercise run. The RSPCA are currently gathering evidence and will present guidelines in 2012.

The ASPCA (US) recommends rabbits should be housed indoors only in a cage a minimum of 4' x 2' x 2', again with access to a large exercise area."

Indiana House Rabbit Society:

"Because many cages advertised for rabbits donât really provide enough room for all [their] supplies, think about other ways to house your rabbit."


Anyone who is currently housing their rabbits in such conditions are not bad owners or don't love their rabbits, but should seriously consider altering their housing to better fit the needs of the members of their family. 

All of the reasons listed above is why I urge prospective pet owners do plenty of research before owning an animal. I would argue that 95% of the products sold in pet stores marketed for small animals are NOT suitable for small animals. If one does not do their research, it is not surprising that SO MANY rabbits are improperly housed and fed when the mainstreamed products are what they are purchasing.


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## ZRabbits (Jul 8, 2012)

Again no misinformation from me.Â  Go to my blog.Â  I show experience.Â  

And this is not directed to the OP who did provide good shelter for their rabbits.Â


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## ZRabbits (Jul 8, 2012)

BTW, I have a hutch too. 

K


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## BunMommaD (Jul 8, 2012)

My opinion? I think it's up to the individual pet owner... They know their pet the best and are the best to make that decision! It take more effort with getting out for exercise when the pen is smaller, but it totally can work and be awesome! Zrabbits are all happy healthy and well adjusted, in their store bought crates! As is our Mr. Cookie in his x-pen! Everyone know what is best for their family! Just my 2 cents


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## BunMommaD (Jul 8, 2012)

Wow! Nelsons mom... We can all see you a re experienced, but let's not attack people... It's really not fair to throw around words like hoarding, when really dont know someone's life or situation! What you get is but a brief glimpse... Everyone can have different ways! It's ok! We can all do things a little differently, and all be right for our own families! Lets be kind  we are all here cuz we live bunnies


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## Nelsons_Mom (Jul 8, 2012)

BunMommaD,

I am sorry that I have offended you. Offense wasn't my intention. I am just so passionate that sometimes I get ahead of myself.

And yes, each person is an individual and has a right to do what they think is best for their animals.

What I have a problem with, is an individual saying that their personal experience counts more than decades of research and the opinions of true experts, people who have owned rabbits for 10-20yrs and have evolved their practices to best fit rabbits. As, obviously, 10-20yrs ago was a VERY different time in pet care. Working alongside experienced vets and having that much experience is even more than I can hope for, which is why I turn to those people for guidance.


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## BunMommaD (Jul 8, 2012)

Thank you for the apology! I accept  I love me a good debate, I just think it's important to be respectful  I haven't been a bun owner for very long, and found fairly quickly that the store bought cage just wouldnt work long term for our guy, he likes to roam  but we do use his store bought cage frequently when's e travel for up to a few weeks at a time and he's never had a problem with it! He's so bonded with us, that if we are around he is a happy secure boy


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## silversky2668 (Jul 8, 2012)

Good use of toys and space for what you got in there When I first got my rabbit, Honey, I had a similar cage, and I still have the same one for his base for food, hay, and litterbox. Oh, he was so tiny back then...I do think that you'll notice that as he/she gets older and you see how much space rabbits use to run around, you may want to attach an x-pen of some sort so that he can still come out and hop around a bit. I always thought of rabbits as a cage animal until I got Honey and realized how much space he needed, especially since he got a lot bigger than the pet store told me he would...Personally, I am also a believer in giving rabbits enough space to comfortably hop four times and fully sit up on their hind legs whenever they want, though I will never try to force the idea on anyone. I do offer it as sound, healthy advice, however, and you will find that many people support the idea and it definitely is a growing one. Once again, it's nothing I ever thought about until I saw how much room Honey loves to use and how much he hates when I close the cage door on him.

But for now, the cage looks like it will serve its purpose since your bunny is still a baby. And you have time as he grows up to research cage ideas and decide on expanding or not


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## MyJuneAngel (Jul 8, 2012)

To the OP:

Looks like a great set up for a small bun  We have larger ones and our 9 week old wouldn't do so well in that amount of space but he is getting pretty big already. 

I say go with your gut on this one. If your little one starts to seem like it is out of room then either upgrade to something larger or provide an enclosure for some extended play.

Our first rabbit, I guess you could call a rescue. She came from an individual but they were, quite seriously, ready to kill her because she escaped her container and made a mess on the floor. They got her for their daughter for Easter and the child quickly grew bored with her. She was ignored other than basic necessities. They provided pellets and water ONLY. She had never had hay or greens when we adopted her. She was living in a Rubbermaid storage container with a screen fashioned over the top. She could not even lay down stretched out inside. It was awful.  We didn't have a cage or anything at the time but we knew we could do better for her than they were. The first thing we did was put her in a LARGE container of the same sort she was used to and we put that container in a cordoned off hallway without anything over the top. Within a few days she was hopping out in to the hall to explore. She still spent a lot of time in the storage tub though and we soon realized she was using it as a litter box. We slowly transitioned her to a cat litter box and got rid of the container. She lived in that hallway area for a few months until we built her a NIC cage. Long story short, you can tell by your rabbit's actions and reactions whether it needs more space or not. 

I'm sure you'll do the right thing, OP, if your little one needs more space later!


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## jap08m (Jul 8, 2012)

I would like to agree with everyone who believes that each rabbits case is different. As long as the rabbit is happy and healthy and has good amount of time to run out in the open (or in my case ninja herself under the bed)I see no reason why a store bought cage would be too small unless it restricted movement to a point where it would cause damage or stress to the animal if they resided in there longer then overnight. While having a bigger cage or NIC unit would be convenient all of the time, not alot of people have the space for it. So make do with what you have, when she grows up she will probably need a bigger place but until then make her a happy bunny and deal with it when the time comes. I wish you both good luck and lots of fun.


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## silversky2668 (Jul 8, 2012)

All I'm going to say that in college, you have to support your information with valid sources showing that you have done your research, which Nelsons_Mom has definitely done here.Â  And you're the one making fun of her, trying to belittle the fact that she is saying she believes (as does the ASPCA and many absolutely wonderful, hard-working rabbit rescues) that rabbits need a lot of access to space because they are not small-cage animals.Â  Whether that space is given by NIC panel setups or an xpen or some other means doesn't matter.Â  You can't argue that rabbits are one of the most neglected pets out there as there are many irresponsible breeders, sellers, and owners of rabbits.Â  There NEEDS to be a change to how rabbits are viewed as pets, and I think Nelsons_Mom is doing a good job of trying to get information out there.Â  Maybe not everyone can give their rabbits 24/7 access to a lot of space, but they need A LOT of time to come out, not just a couple hours and then stuck in a small cage for another 22 or less.Â  

I looked at your blog and it looks like you have a wonderful run setup outside, and your rabbits look well-taken care of .Â  But I don't think there's anything wrong with other people promoting more space for rabbits.Â  She's arguing for better rabbit care, not against it, and I'm rather shocked at how you can ignore the solid information she's given and say she's being immature and unintelligent.Â  All you've given for your support is your blog (which is a very nice blog, yes), but there's much more information out there that is helpful and SHOULD be researched before making decisions about rabbits.Â  I think both of you, and most of the contributors on this site, have valid ideas to share and it's sad to see those ideas belittled rather than read with an open mind.

And that's the last I'm having to do with this topic post.Â  I hope the OP takes the information that has been given and makes an informed decision that is the best for her rabbit and will give it the best life possible


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## ZRabbits (Jul 8, 2012)

Excuse me?Â  What solid information are you stating.Â  From the Rabbit Society, Rescue Groups?Â  Sorry, with what I've read here about how some of these rescue groups handle business is appalling and in some cases inhumane.Â Â  Who's actually watching them?Â  I guess it's better to talk acreage for bunnies than actually their well being.Â Â  

I was appalled to hear that a rabbit can be neutered the day it leaves.Â  Or the day the adoption is final.Â  Look at the thread about the 3 amigos from Florida. Â  And you tell me that some are worried about the health and well being of a rabbit.Â  That's neglectful.Â  And it's bad business.Â  And it's bad rep. 

And who is he to say that pet store crates are cheaply made?Â  Has he or she have a study on that?Â  Oh, they don't.Â  Then someone shouldn't assume.Â  Also when someone calls other bunny food other than Oxbow dog food.Â  Hmmm,Â  I think there is a agenda here.Â  And I'm not playing it.Â  

Not ignoring anything.Â  And I think you should go back and re-read what really was said and let's not forget or ignore the fact that the implication of a hoarder was thrown in there.Â  And please don't assume.Â  

Thank you for your comments.Â  Have a nice day.Â


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## MyBabyHasPaws (Jul 8, 2012)

Well alrighty...Carry on!
OP, the cage looks fantastic. You give your bun plenty of free time


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## Pipp (Jul 8, 2012)

okay, Nelsons_Mom made an inappropriate remark, ZRabbits has been edgy and combative throughout the thread, it's been edited, maybe now well, but hey, it was a schmauze. 

I'm leaving in ZRabbits last post because it's combative about about rescues and not a person, and that's fine. Personal attacks are not fine. 

I will respond to the cage question in another post. 

Any posts from NM addressing ZR or ZR's opinions, and vice-versa, will be deleted. 

sas :nonono:


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## Pipp (Jul 9, 2012)

maisy&layla wrote:


> This is the cage that I have for my rabbit. Does it have everything she needs ? and is there enough space etc ?
> 
> She has;
> a house with straw for sleep/naps.
> ...



Maisy&layla, no offence, don't take it personally, but this is a terrible set up and pet stores are wrong wrong wrong to be selling these cages and most of the toys. 

1) Rabbits live in burrows, more than anything else, they instinctively require overhead cover and greatly prefer access to a small 'burrow box', preferably one with a small entrance and a second exit. At least they need something low and overhead, eg: a shelf to hide under. 

2) Rabbits instinctively HATE being picked up because in their natural environment, that's akin to being grabbed by a hawk or another predator. A cage that opens from the top is awful for them. 

3) Rabbits love and need traction. 'Binkies' are not something joyful, (although they do love the freedom of movement), its practising escape mechanisms. A plastic floor, even covered with litter, does not allow them traction and escape. (Neither does corroplast, linoleum and other flooring, but the pet store plastic is the worst. It is also very hard on the skeletal structure. Babies born on pet store plastic will often be splay legged or have other deformities.

4) Rabbits need hopping movements. Even if the cage was big enough to hop in at all, which it is not, hopping 'up' is better exercise than hopping across. A shelf or the top of a box (with traction) to hop up and down from is a healthier option.

Personally I'd take the top off of the cage and use the bottom as a hay and/or litter box and use wire cube shelving panels with zip ties, or set up an exercise pen, around it. 

ETA: For toys, the box can be chewed and replaced as often as you want. You can also stuff paper towel or toilet rolls with hay and let her chew that, and/or supply pesticide-free twigs, branches like apple, pear and willow. 

Hope this helps! 


sas :bunnydance:


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## ZRabbits (Jul 9, 2012)

I respectfully disagree with you on this one. I have crates that I can access from the top. My bunnies never get upset regarding that. Matter of fact they greet me each time. In the wild, they can be swooped up. But I don't see any predators in my house. Or in my bunny run. 

Regarding traction in a plactic floor crate, grass mats work for and my bunnies. No problem there. 

Nic Pens use *corroplast, linoleum and other flooring, *Many people have come on here and complained about their bunnies chew this stuff. Interesting. 

Regarding hopping up, some bunnies don't like it. You find them stuck up at the top or huddle at the bottom. I've read posts of people on this forum about that such thing. Or falling which could cause injury. And in the wild bunnies don't hop up. They are on the ground. 

I'd like to see the study regarding kits on plastic and problems. It would interesting. But please do not give me something from House Rabbit Society. I'd like true independent studies. But I'm sure you won't be able to find it. I'd do my own research. 

Keeping your bunny on the ground, since they don't like to be picked up, would be more healthier than building levels for where injury could occur from level to level. 

A good crate with an x-pen for exercise is perfect.

BTW, see you are a moderator. Where are you with the personal attacks on me and my Tribe? I'm waiting. I want an answer. Or are you going to ignore it because you like the Nic Pen too. Please, I thought moderators were supposed to biased. From what you said, don't sound like it to me. 

BTW, saw on facebook, what you said about putting people in the litter box. Wow, what a concept.


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## Pipp (Jul 9, 2012)

ZRabbits wrote:


> I respectfully disagree with you on this one.Â
> 
> I'd like to see the study regarding kits on plastic and problems.Â  It would interesting.Â  But please do not give me something from House Rabbit Society.Â  I'd like true independent studies.Â  But I'm sure you won't be able to find it.Â  I'd do my own research. Â
> 
> ...



This is far from 'respectfully' anything. 

I am the owner of the forum. You of course are entitled to your opinion, however, you are not entitled to express it disrespectfully nor engage in personal attacks. 

Thank you for your cooperation. 


sas :X


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## Blue eyes (Jul 9, 2012)

Maisy & layla,

I can see that you have put much effort into getting together a home for your bunny. I wanted to applaud you for housing her indoors. It seems that many house outdoors in UK (just my impression), but I'm glad you chose indoors.

That said, I would say that bunny needs a much larger area. You are on the right track with supplies, but I wholeheartedly agree with Pipp and Nelson'sMom that your bunny would appreciate a more roomy cage. I know mine like to stretch all the way out on the floor and there simply isn't room for that in your cage. I do like the idea of utilizing the base for a litter box and putting that in a NIC cage or x-pen. If you haven't seen such cages, there is a link on this forum. I'm not sure where to find it but I know it had "cages" and "2012" in the title, so you should be able to search it. 

Sounds like you want what's best for bunny, so once you take a peek at what others have done for cages, you will likely be inspired to improve things for your baby.


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## MiserySmith (Jul 9, 2012)

Seeing the joy of a rabbit kept in an xpen/NIC cage/homemade pen is worth moving it IMO. 
My guy loves splaying out all about his cage. When we got him he was in a cage about half the size of yours, very poor for the little guy. It actually brought his personality out more when we got him home and set up in a much bigger cage as well.
He also ADORES his level I added to his xpen. He spends 70% of the time in his cage on or beneath it.
I absolutely agree with Nelson'sMom.


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## fantaysah (Jul 9, 2012)

Eh. I agree and disagree... rabbits are like dogs they are all different with their own personality. Some prefer a smaller home and a separate play area and some require a large home. You just have to get to know your bun. In the wild yes they are burrow animals but i find mine hate the house they have and try to shove it out of their cage. They would rather be in the open. They say they don't like drafty places but mine lounge n front of the ac. Mine love zooming up and down their levels but fall sometimes and we don't have anything for traction they love the bare plastic and dig everything i put in there up! I think you should consider all of the opinions but go with what works for you in the end. If your bun likes his small house and gets out enough its fine and doesn't make you a bad owner. I think the bad vibes in the thread were because they were not stated as this worked for me etc. But were stated like it has to be done a certain way Or your wrong and it doesn't. mine are happy and comfortable and are both very different and what works for one will not always work for another.base your decisions on the reactions of your fur baby


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## maisy&layla (Jul 9, 2012)

Thanks everyone for the information and views!

I will be looking into building her a new and larger cage in the next few days. At the moment I feel the cage is an ok size for her but as she grows she will need more room. 

Once I have started to build my own cage I will post pics and update on how Layla is enjoying her new cage. 

As I did state we let her out the cage whenever we are in and she gets a lot of excercise be it running, clibing or jumping.


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## I_heart_Fraggles (Jul 9, 2012)

:whistling


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## MiniLopHop (Jul 9, 2012)

*silversky2668 wrote: *


> All I'm going to say that in college, you have to support your information with valid sources showing that you have done your research, which Nelsons_Mom has definitely done here. And you're the one making fun of her, trying to belittle the fact that she is saying she believes (as does the ASPCA and many absolutely wonderful, hard-working rabbit rescues) that rabbits need a lot of access to space because they are not small-cage animals. Whether that space is given by NIC panel setups or an xpen or some other means doesn't matter. You can't argue that rabbits are one of the most neglected pets out there as there are many irresponsible breeders, sellers, and owners of rabbits. There NEEDS to be a change to how rabbits are viewed as pets, and I think Nelsons_Mom is doing a good job of trying to get information out there. Maybe not everyone can give their rabbits 24/7 access to a lot of space, but they need A LOT of time to come out, not just a couple hours and then stuck in a small cage for another 22 or less.
> 
> I looked at your blog and it looks like you have a wonderful run setup outside, and your rabbits look well-taken care of . But I don't think there's anything wrong with other people promoting more space for rabbits. She's arguing for better rabbit care, not against it, and I'm rather shocked at how you can ignore the solid information she's given and say she's being immature and unintelligent. All you've given for your support is your blog (which is a very nice blog, yes), but there's much more information out there that is helpful and SHOULD be researched before making decisions about rabbits. I think both of you, and most of the contributors on this site, have valid ideas to share and it's sad to see those ideas belittled rather than read with an open mind.
> 
> And that's the last I'm having to do with this topic post. I hope the OP takes the information that has been given and makes an informed decision that is the best for her rabbit and will give it the best life possible


:yeahthat: Dear OP, I think you have the right idea. Clearly your bun is still small so the cage probably feels the right size and is comfortable for now. It is good that you are thinking about possible expansion for the future depending on how large she gets. I'm glad to hear she gets lots of run time,as that is also good for encouraging muscle and bone development as she grows. Please do not let the arguments detract from the joy of your new baby.


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## Samara (Jul 10, 2012)

I have a mixed set up at the moment because I'm attempting to bond Gubble and Atticus (neutered males), who are surrounded by my girls. I have a 6x3 NIC panel'd condo that has Atticus, Pidge and Starling in it, which when done will have a den section and a level with ramp. I have Gubble and Molly next to the enclosure in a store bought cage currently. 

I have stick-on linoleum as the floor to the condo but I put down fleece on top. What I plan on doing is attaching a plywood floor on the condo and I'm still deciding on what the covering over the plywood is. I'm open to suggestions!

My point in describing all of this is that Gubb/Molls current cage has an open top AND front door design. I don't ever take them out from the top...it's personally too awkward for me and if I'm feeling awkward I have no business picking up an animal in that state, you know? I use the top portion for cleaning or delivering treats, but only with them because they aren't panicky at hands from above like the others. 

I think the store bought cages are over-priced, but do have their uses in combined NIC pen designs. You could attach it to a NIC panel if it had a front door and use it solely for hay or something like that. 

Pipp, what kind of set up do you use for your buns? I'm always looking for suggestions as to flooring, especially where I'm mid-build with this NIC condo. 

Edit: Adding a link with pictures: http://raisincane.weebly.com/nic--house-rabbits.html - if you scroll to the bottom it shows the current set up.


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## wendymac (Jul 11, 2012)

This is from ARBA:






And here's the link to the entire article:
http://arba.net/PDFs/CAW.pdf


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## Samara (Jul 11, 2012)

Hmm. Wendy, do you think I'm doing a disservice to my buns by having it be 3ft wide and not 4? I can see where dimensions certainly make a difference. Atticus is 10lbs, so by the chart he should be in 4 square feet minimum. The 6x3 condo I have is bigger proportionately, but it technically doesn't (?) meet the 4 square feet standard...

:shock:

Poop.


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## wendymac (Jul 11, 2012)

To get the square footage of your cage, you multiple the length times the width. So your cage is 18 square feet, which is a LOT more than the minimum!


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## Samara (Jul 11, 2012)

I can't math. :baghead


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## wendymac (Jul 11, 2012)

LOL! I use my calculator. hahaha

Here's my take on the whole thing. People I think get too carried away on cage sizes and forget the rabbit's basic needs: Food, water, shelter, and the ability to hop a bit. I don't know how much time most folks spend watching their rabbits, but I watch them a LOT. Maybe it's my breeds (French Lops and Californians) but the majority of them do NOTHING. Sure, they'll hop and do a few binkies. Then they lay down. They sleep. So, while it might make the humans feel better giving Fluffy the entire run of the house, or cage space that takes up an entire room, I don't feel that it's necessary. If your bunny is happy, eating, and pooping, gets time to stretch their legs a bit every day, they're probably fine.


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## BunMommaD (Jul 11, 2012)

wendymac wrote:


> LOL! I use my calculator. hahaha
> 
> Here's my take on the whole thing. People I think get too carried away on cage sizes and forget the rabbit's basic needs: Food, water, shelter, and the ability to hop a bit. I don't know how much time most folks spend watching their rabbits, but I watch them a LOT. Maybe it's my breeds (French Lops and Californians) but the majority of them do NOTHING. Sure, they'll hop and do a few binkies. Then they lay down. They sleep. So, while it might make the humans feel better giving Fluffy the entire run of the house, or cage space that takes up an entire room, I don't feel that it's necessary. If your bunny is happy, eating, and pooping, gets time to stretch their legs a bit every day, they're probably fine.



I could've have said it better myself! Completely agree!


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## majorv (Jul 11, 2012)

*wendymac wrote: *


> LOL! I use my calculator. hahaha
> 
> Here's my take on the whole thing. People I think get too carried away on cage sizes and forget the rabbit's basic needs: Food, water, shelter, and the ability to hop a bit. I don't know how much time most folks spend watching their rabbits, but I watch them a LOT. Maybe it's my breeds (French Lops and Californians) but the majority of them do NOTHING. Sure, they'll hop and do a few binkies. Then they lay down. They sleep. So, while it might make the humans feel better giving Fluffy the entire run of the house, or cage space that takes up an entire room, I don't feel that it's necessary. If your bunny is happy, eating, and pooping, gets time to stretch their legs a bit every day, they're probably fine.


We have one active breed and one inactive breed. Even the active ones run around for a little bit, get their jumping doneand then plop down and do nothing for quite a good while.


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## Blue eyes (Jul 11, 2012)

*wendymac wrote: *


> This is from ARBA:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



By contrast, the House Rabbit Society has the following recommendations:

"Bigger is better! A cage should be at least 4 times the size of your bunny when he's entirely stretched out--more if he is confined for a large amount of the day. Cage sizes also should be decided in conjunction with the amount of exercise time and space the rabbit has. One guideline to go by is at least 8 square feet of cage time combined with at least at least 24 square feet of exercise space, for 1-2 rabbits, in which the rabbit(s) can run and play at least 5 hours per day. You can build or buy your rabbit a two-storey "condo" with the floors connected by a ramp--they love this!" http://rabbit.org/faq/sections/housing.html



@Samara, easy mistake on math! I think you were thinking 4 feet square (which would be a cage 4 feet wide by 4 ft wide, or 16 sq ft) instead of 4 sq. ft.


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## wendymac (Jul 11, 2012)

My question is: How did the House Rabbit Society come up with their cage recommendations??? Did they have any scientific data, or just what the majority felt was needed?
Do they have any scientific data, at all, about anything on their site?

As for levels, that's debatable. Rabbits are horizontal creatures, not vertical ones. They certainly aren't hopping up onto big rocks and other objects in the wild. Plus, as Karen pointed out, they can fall and injure themselves.

Show me ONE video where a rabbit plays for 5 hours. I mean playing, not hopping a bit and then laying down and sleeping.

Just because something is on the internet doesn't mean it's the end-all/be-all. 

Me? I'm content with the ARBA's guidelines, along with some free time in an Xpen. But certainly not 5 hours a day.

****edited because it's hard to type while holding a conversation with a 14 yr. old girl yakking in your ear. LOL*****


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## MiniLopHop (Jul 11, 2012)

Of my four rabbits the smallest is the only one that is really active. He's only 3 pounds but loves to run and run until he crashes. Even he will flat out run for only about an hour before he sleeps. It is funny to see the cat and rabbit doing their loops around the house.


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## Watermelons (Jul 11, 2012)

Point blank. All animals need space.

Wendy you are comparing "breeder" standards to "pet" standards. You cant expect every pet owner to keep their rabbits in the same cages you will see in large breeding operations which are what the ARBA's chart is more designed for. You also have to account for litter boxes, bowls, water, houses, hay, etc. This all takes away from floor space. Just because an animal CAN live in certain conditions doesn't mean they should.

We need better standards for our pets as well as rabbits in breeding operations. 1.5 square feet is disgustingly small for a rabbit even if it is under 4lbs. Lets trap all adults in a 6x3' bathroom for life and see how well they do, hey they have enough room to lie down and take a few steps thats all they need right? If they want exercise they can jog on the spot.


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## wendymac (Jul 11, 2012)

First, going on weight, my square footage requirements would be a bit more than that. LMAO 

The OP posted a photo of her cage and her bunny. The setup is perfectly fine for the size of the rabbit, plus it'll get out time. Then, from what I can piece together, Zrabbits stated that her rabbits lived in cages like those and were fine. Then someone else (Nelson's Mom?) started with all the house rabbit society stuff. All I did was show the MINIMUM space requirements that is REQUIRED.

I think a lot of pet people might actually send their animals to a shelter when they see the House Rabbit Society's site and how much space they NEED. 

As I stated before, if the rabbit has ample space to move around, and gets time out for exercise, they really don't need an enormous cage. And that's my opinion, based on my personal observations with my rabbits.

As for breeding operations, space will ALWAYS be an issue for 99% of the people breeding (whether commercial or hobby). I'm only limited on how quickly I can build more cages or buy them pre-made. Not everyone has a big dairy barn, milk house, free-stall barn, large equipment shed etc. that they can expand in to. Would I like to see ALL rabbits with tons of room to run? Sure. Is that always feasible? No. And I can say, for my rabbits and their activity level, they spend 80% of their time sleeping.

My question still stands: How did the House Rabbit Society (or any other pet rabbit site) come up with what they say is the "minimum" cage size needed?


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## Blue eyes (Jul 11, 2012)

*wendymac wrote: *


> My question is: How did the House Rabbit Society come up with their cage recommendations??? Did they have any scientific data, or just what the majority felt was needed?
> Do they have any scientific data, at all, about anything on their site?
> 
> Me? I'm content with the ARBA's guidelines, along with some free time in an Xpen. But certainly not 5 hours a day.
> ...



Funny on the editing. 

I see no scientific data on the ARBA link either. Their guidelines are no more scientific than House Rabbit Society. So I guess it's a matter of picking your poison. I presented the other view for comparison purposes. 

As far as amount of time "playing," of course they don't "play" non-stop. They go in spurts. But it's difficult for them to play when they want if they are only given a limited specific time slot. In that case, they must play when they are given opportunity and if they don't feel in the mood at that time, then too bad. 

Over the years of keeping many house rabbits, I have come to increase my rabbits' time out of their cage. Now I keep the cage door open all day long (15 hours). One bun spends much of his time in his open cage, but when the mood strikes him, he runs around, somtimes full speed. I'm convinced that he would miss at least half of his exercise if I rationed his playtime to a couple hours. 

Having them out this often has also allowed me to know them better. They have certain places in their roaming area that they go depending on their mood. There's the spot under the snake cage that says, "I'm just chillin but want to see what's going on." There's another corner spot that says,"I'm seriously resting now so leave me alone." And the pose in front of the TV cabinet that says,"I'm here so it's time for attention. Come pet me." It is these types of "communication" that I missed out on with some of my earlier rabbits that spent more time in their cages.


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## wendymac (Jul 11, 2012)

Actually, they got their data from the Animal Welfare Act (which is right under the cages sizes). What about House Rabbit Society? What data did they use?

The whole point that seems to be missing is this: Every single person and every single rabbit are unique. Just because something works for one person/rabbit doesn't mean it'll work for every single rabbit out there in every single situation. Some people (like myself) are home 24/7. Other people have school, jobs, family commitments and aren't home as much. 

Hell, I'd love to live in a huge, sprawling mansion. But I haven't found anyone to adopt me that can provide that. LOL

She's always yakking...it's all I can do not to groan when she starts a conversation with, "I had this dream..." because you can bet it's going to be a 3 hour tale. LOL I'm thankful that she talks to me...that all my kids talk to me. But sometimes I want to say, "Shhhh...enjoy the quiet." haha


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## fantaysah (Jul 11, 2012)

I think a lot of people are overlooking a lot of things in this debate...
1- rabbits are unique with their own personalities, they will like different things and have different needs and what works for one will NOT work for every rabbit..

2- YES rabbits in the wild are horizontal animals... OUR pet rabbits enjoy their levels and hopping up on the couch for kisses (as a majority) OUR RABBITS AREN'T WILD!.. I understand that some traits will always remain but we breed and choose rabbits for qualities that make them good PETS. WILD rabbits for one are solitary creatures but our pet rabbits LOVE company (as a majority) whether it be from us or another rabbit. WILD rabbits don't go out and play or use toys they run and hide etc. out of necessity not out of joy... PET rabbits PLAY...

3- Dogs, cats or any other animal in the wild have huge amounts of space and their home ranges could be MILES but no one feels horribly at having a house cat or pet dog.. why is that? Animals adapt and have different wants and needs when they are PETS and not WILD. Whats wrong with smaller cages as long as a rabbit gets out some? Wouldnt a smaller cage fit in with what people are always screaming about rabbits> Wouldn't it mimic their burrows and make a rabbit less scared? do you realize that a rabbit burrows for around 20 hours a day in the WILD and never get too far from their home. If you think about it a cat having living in your house is cutting their home range area by way more than having your pet rabbit in a super pet cage from petsmart. As long as they have time to play/excersice then why is it bad?

I would like to have people think outside the box, stop letting other peoples research or lack thereof make you feel a certain way. Use common sense and try not to think that IF my rabbit was WILD it would be this standard or that because they aren't wild they are family members just like your dog/cat/kid. 

I dont have any idea what kind of research they could possibly do to make a list of what size house your pet rabbit needs... I assume they didn't ASK the rabbit and I am also pretty sure they DIDN'T love and interact everyday with more than 100 rabbits for each breed and study them individually. That would take years to go through all the breeds etc. and having as much interaction as a pet rabbit does you wouldn't have time in a day to make the experiment controlled so I doubt that the research was done properly esp. considering that if you didn't choose 100 rabbits wouldn't the sample size be too small to be accurate anyhow...???

I am sorry if many of you disagree but THERE IS NO SET way to house your rabbit... THERE IS NO PERFECT HOUSE... THERE IS NO HOLY GRAIL OF RABBIT CONDOS and everyone just needs to judge the UNIQUE happiness of EACH bun!!!


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## Blue eyes (Jul 11, 2012)

*wendymac wrote: *


> Actually, they got their data from the Animal Welfare Act (which is right under the cages sizes). What about House Rabbit Society? What data did they use?
> 
> The whole point that seems to be missing is this: Every single person and every single rabbit are unique. Just because something works for one person/rabbit doesn't mean it'll work for every single rabbit out there in every single situation. Some people (like myself) are home 24/7. Other people have school, jobs, family commitments and aren't home as much.
> 
> ...



Well, saying it's from the Animal Welfare Act doesn't really support your case. That's simply gov't regulation setting bare minimums for animal care so that the gov. and judgeshave some sort of tangible, objectivestandard by which to measure when "abuse" can be applied. (failing to meet "the minimum") . Again, someone applied their personal opinion to establish what they believed is reasonable minimum cage size. There's really nothing "scientific" about establishing cage size. And minimal simply means that - minimal. So again, the difference in cage size recommendation is still a matter of one opinion over another. The ARBA says,"this is the smallest cages can legally be," while HRS says, "larger cages arehealthier for rabbits."

The purpose of forums like this is for people to share ideas to improve the lives of their bunnies and to improve their lives with bunnies. I don't think any of us want to settle for "bare minimum" care for our furries. We want what's best. It's a good thing to want to improve our bunnies' condition. So if we can encourage each other to do just that, that is great. 

Oh, and I totally understand the dreaded "I had a dream..." statement.  Fortunately, I only have one left that hasn't outgrown that yet. I keep telling myself to "ok, focus...engage... show interest" :big wink:


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## Nelsons_Mom (Jul 11, 2012)

I personally feel that the bigger the better. My guys are middle aged now (5 and 4) so they don't go as much as they used to, but they still greatly appreciate any time out. 

One of the major things that I find preferable about having a larger cage is that most rabbits are most active at dusk and dawn. While most of us are home at dusk, I know I am not up at five and six in the morning to let them out to play! My rabbits can have some "zoomies" and binkies in their cage. Because of that, someone saying "oh, my bunnies mostly sleep during the day" if they take them out in the middle of the day isn't that compelling, since that is the time they are most likely to be naturally sleeping.

I understand that each individual has different situations regarding the amount of space in their home and the amount of space they are willing to dedicate to their animals (because it is a huge consideration). However, no one is forcing people to obtain rabbits. It is my belief that if you cannot provide a physically and mentally stimulating environment for an animal, then you shouldn't get one. I feel the same way about people who have a dog they leave crated for 8-10hrs a day or anyone who houses a mammal in an aquarium.

And, no disrespect, I don't find an Act that says it is okay to house anything bigger than a mouse in a cage that is 1.5 sq ft all that compelling.Heck, the minimum cage requirement for rats is 2sqft per rat! However, I do recognize that there are logistical differences between breeding and showing rabbits and pet standards (as much as that seems backwards in my mind). But, despite the fact that the House Rabbit Society does not use scientific evidence (to my knowledge) to defends its housing claims (because nutrition and medical care obviously have some grounding) I do not think that anyone could argue against that bunnies that have more room are more likely to exercise and bunnies who exercise more tend to lead healthier lives.

Also, for how popular rabbits are there is very few studies on them (unlike cats and dogs because of their popularity and rats because of their close link to the sciences.) I would doubt there was really ANY studies on housing for PET purposes. Most of those figures are for keeping large quantities of animals. Similar studies also say that it is acceptable to keep egg laying chickens in cages they cannot fully flap their wings.


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## fantaysah (Jul 11, 2012)

See this is where i find the issue.. why do we have to be made to look bad or that we don't care about our buns if we are "bare minimum" owners? The person who decided that cage size has not been anywhere near my bun or my situation. Many times in this debate people have kinda stated to the effect that if we don't follow that we are bad pet owners and our rabbits are unhappy. Where's the research saying my rabbit isn't happy?


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## fantaysah (Jul 11, 2012)

*Nelsons_Mom wrote:*


> I would doubt there was really ANY studies on housing for PET purposes.


EXACTLY!! this is the biggest point of the day.. Its all opinion. My girls are both less than 2 lbs and share a 4x3 NIC but i did have them in the small cage... They did get the in routine with playing on allotted times and they are not MORE active at any specific point in time... Their activity levels are based on whether or not i am close to them. The closer i get the more ramped up they get and when i walk away they go sleep.


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## Nelsons_Mom (Jul 11, 2012)

fantaysah wrote:


> 2- YES rabbits in the wild are horizontal animals... OUR pet rabbits enjoy their levels and hopping up on the couch for kisses (as a majority) OUR RABBITS AREN'T WILD!.. I understand that some traits will always remain but we breed and choose rabbits for qualities that make them good PETS. WILD rabbits for one are solitary creatures but our pet rabbits LOVE company (as a majority) whether it be from us or another rabbit. WILD rabbits don't go out and play or use toys they run and hide etc. out of necessity not out of joy... PET rabbits PLAY...
> 
> I would like to have people think outside the box, stop letting other peoples research or lack thereof make you feel a certain way. Use common sense and try not to think that IF my rabbit was WILD it would be this standard or that because they aren't wild they are family members just like your dog/cat/kid.



I think you might be confusing rabbits with hares (who do live solitary lives) wild rabbits live in HUGE warrens. They're hugely social creatures and DO live together and appreciate and PLAY with each other. We have a warren of wild rabbits living in my backyard and they're always binkying around and grooming each other and playing tag. I should really video tape it, it's adorable because accept for the physical appearance, it's just like watching my guys.

And I also disagree that there are such diverse qualifications between rabbits and I DEFINITELY disagree with allowing the average owner to make those choices. Keep in mind that most of us here are a lot more passionate about our rabbits care than the average person. There should be minimum cages for rabbits. Otherwise you get idiots who'll stick them in a ferret cage--or worse, a tank!

Most of the population still sees rabbits as a caged animal that doesn't do much, and if having high standards all over the internet discourages them as opposed to educating them to reevaluating their position and adapting their care, then thank goodness! I'd rather someone not own a pet at all than not do it properly. (Not that I feel that way about anyone here C: I've just seen too many idiots on my rat forum and know that there must be the same sort of injustice for rabbits.)


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## wendymac (Jul 11, 2012)

fantaysah wrote:


> See this is where i find the issue.. why do we have to be made to look bad or that we don't care about our buns if we are "bare minimum" owners? The person who decided that cage size has not been anywhere near my bun or my situation. Many times in this debate people have kinda stated to the effect that if we don't follow that we are bad pet owners and our rabbits are unhappy. Where's the research saying my rabbit isn't happy?



Exactly!!!


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## Nelsons_Mom (Jul 11, 2012)

fantaysah wrote:


> *Nelsons_Mom wrote:*
> 
> 
> > I would doubt there was really ANY studies on housing for PET purposes.
> ...



I think that cage is perfectly adequate for how small your girls are!


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## Samara (Jul 11, 2012)

fantaysah wrote:


> See this is where i find the issue.. why do we have to be made to look bad or that we don't care about our buns if we are "bare minimum" owners? The person who decided that cage size has not been anywhere near my bun or my situation. Many times in this debate people have kinda stated to the effect that if we don't follow that we are bad pet owners and our rabbits are unhappy. Where's the research saying my rabbit isn't happy?



:yeahthat:

I think society needs to set standards for non-animal lovers who "have" to share their space with pets for whatever reason. It's sort of like taking a doctor saying 2000 calories a day for the human body, but what about XYZ person who has this and that reason for needing more or less? 

Standards should be seen as guidelines, not the end all be all. 

I only have the huge NIC pen because I wanted to build something and be proud of it. Yeah it gives my buns more room to dance around when they want, but it's selfishly something that *I* want to find asthetically pleasing because I have to look at it a lot. 

That does *not* mean that just because I want something to look nice by my standards that I would squander the animal that actually has to *live* in it - please do not interpret that to be what I'm saying. 

I am saying that I like to find the middle ground of what is acceptable for *my* rabbits to be happy and healthy and also something that is easy for me to clean and be happy with. Let's face it, a hard to clean cage is a cage that will likely not be cleaned often for the less than dedicated pet goer. Think about it - if you have a cage that was hard to get into and clean, wouldn't you be discouraged to clean it? A small store cage or a hutch by comparison is easier to clean, so it spurs the owner on to clean it frequently because it doesn't take much effort. 

Humans are generally programmed to find the easiest, most effective way to do something. If you can really get down and clean a cage, that in my opinion is the cage to go with because you're able to keep up with it. 

I like the NIC pens because I can constantly change things and make their environment more stimulating. I can't provide them a forest or an underground burrow personally, but I can give them neat toys and a decent place to live. 

I have the big condo in hopes that I can bond all 6 rabbits, or a majority of them, into it. I'll be adding levels and what not of course, but I built it big with the future in mind. 

Heck, Starling is an English Lop mix but is already looking to be Atticus' size or larger by some incredible feat. 

I think if people are willing to come to this forum and seek out our advice the last thing we should be doing is telling them they're screw ups and how could they use such housing - I think we should share what *we* use and *why* and be there for questions and answers. 

I know if I have a big change to make if I have others to help walk me through it without making me feel like I'm loser I'm more inclined to come back for help and be more amicable to change.

That whole catch more flies with honey than vinegar saying, you know? 

Standards are standards. Use them or not. If *you* know and your vet agrees that your rabbit is reaching its full life potential, then ignore the others in your face saying "How could you?"


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## wendymac (Jul 11, 2012)

Nelsons_Mom wrote:


> I personally feel that the bigger the better. My guys are middle aged now (5 and 4) so they don't go as much as they used to, but they still greatly appreciate any time out.
> 
> I understand that each individual has different situations regarding the amount of space in their home and the amount of space they are willing to dedicate to their animals (because it is a huge consideration). However, no one is forcing people to obtain rabbits. It is my belief that if you cannot provide a physically and mentally stimulating environment for an animal, then you shouldn't get one. I feel the same way about people who have a dog they leave crated for 8-10hrs a day or anyone who houses a mammal in an aquarium.
> 
> And, no disrespect, I don't find an Act that says it is okay to house anything bigger than a mouse in a cage that is 1.5 sq ft all that compelling.Heck, the minimum cage requirement for rats is 2sqft per rat! However, I do recognize that there are logistical differences between breeding and showing rabbits and pet standards (as much as that seems backwards in my mind). But, despite the fact that the House Rabbit Society does not use scientific evidence (to my knowledge) to defends its housing claims (because nutrition and medical care obviously have some grounding) I do not think that anyone could argue against that bunnies that have more room are more likely to exercise and bunnies who exercise more tend to lead healthier lives.



This is your OPINION. This isn't fact. I am awake when rabbits are more prone to playing (I'm usually not even heading to bed until 3 or 4 am). The kids are up early. No matter WHEN some rabbits are let out, some still only do a little hopping and then sleep. So you can't base your experience with a few rabbits on everyone else's rabbits.

I honestly feel that some go way overboard on their rabbit's "housing", almost like they're trying to 1 up someone else. As long as the rabbit can move around, it gets feed, water, and a place to exercise (Xpen or whatever) then it's fine. To say that anyone without a room (or entire house) devoted to 1 rabbit is doing their rabbit a disservice is wrong. 

It's one thing to tell someone, "That's nice. But if it were me, I'd..." and quite another to say, "That's horrible, it's garbage, ditch it and do it my way."


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## wendymac (Jul 11, 2012)

Well said, Sammy!! When I first joined this forum, people were very helpful without condemning. They gave their advice, and the reasons behind it. It seems like, lately, it's more about condemning then helping. 

Any time I've answered any questions, I've said, "I do" or "This is what I've done" and explain. 

I think everyone just needs to take a big, deep breath...and realize we're ALL here to learn and offer what works for each of us.


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## Samara (Jul 11, 2012)

wendymac wrote:


> Well said, Sammy!! When I first joined this forum, people were very helpful without condemning. They gave their advice, and the reasons behind it. It seems like, lately, it's more about condemning then helping.
> 
> Any time I've answered any questions, I've said, "I do" or "This is what I've done" and explain.
> 
> I think everyone just needs to take a big, deep breath...and realize we're ALL here to learn and offer what works for each of us.



:yeahthat: :thumbup

I would love to see more nurturing banter around the forum; I'm taking my big, deep breath now!


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## wendymac (Jul 11, 2012)

:clapping: :big wink:


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## BunMommaD (Jul 11, 2012)

I just thought I'd throw this into the discussion... Now that my husband works from home, cookies cage is open most of the day, but he doesn't budge from his sleeping spot at all, until my husband is done working in the evening and comes down for dinner... He isn't even fazed by the door to his house being open, he has no desire to come out all day! And then he runs around for an hour maybe two... And then runs upstairs and goes back to bed! If a bun is happy and healthy! Leave the housing and care up to the owners! The ones that are with him/her all day everyday! Everybody is different


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## audrinasmommy88 (Jul 11, 2012)

Maisy and layla...i started out with this kind of cage for my Olivia. She did fine with it and then I decided to switch her to a hutch so she would have more room. She seems to enjoy it more. I think for the time being this is fine for her. Dont stress yourself just yet about a new cage. As long as she is getting a lot of time out of her cage, i think it is fine


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## fantaysah (Jul 11, 2012)

THANK YOU!! someone with a huge cage can still neglect their animals. They have the possible idea that they do not need time out etc. because the cage is big enough. You cant base our pet ownership skills on how much room we have and whether or not we agree with someones so called standards. My rabbits are different than yours personality wise and I have gotten lots of great info here but I also have been made to feel inadequate at times because someone says their way is the only way! 

I agree to disagree and accept that we all have opinions but you cant shove it at someone and say this is FACT when there is no real evidence of anything


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## fantaysah (Jul 11, 2012)

Please make a video i have hundreds of cotton tails on my land and have NEVER seen them interact. They see each other and run!


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## silversky2668 (Jul 11, 2012)

I read somewhere that smaller breed rabbits tend to be more active than larger breeds. Does anyone know if this is true? (Think the youtube video "The real energizer bunny"). I do know that my rabbit is larger breed and he tends to sleep most of the afternoon and get more active early morning/late at night. That's especially one of the reasons I provide him with an xpen all of the time, because I don't get up really early, which is when I hear him running around like a maniac  

I do worry about how society views rabbits, still, though. I know when I was little, we had a rabbit kept in a small hutch and we NEVER took him out at all, provided him with toys, etc...I didn't know there was anything wrong with that. I thought that's just what you did with rabbits. And I work at a daycare where not long ago they had a small dwarf rabbit who they'd had for about 11 years--he'd lived his WHOLE LIFE in a foot in a half by foot in a half wire bottom cage with nowhere to rest and never came out except when the kids got to carry him around like a toy. There was a lady who would feed him crackers and tons of other unhealthy things all of the time. When I got there I talked them into getting him a bigger cage and educated them on food for him, though he didn't live much longer. I was shocked that people could keep a rabbit like that, no research done on food or anything, and think it was okay. Because rabbits are often considered pets like hamsters and "easy" "kid-friendly" animals, when they're really not. 

So I don't think it's wrong for sites to promote bigger housing and higher standards for rabbits care. If people see those dimensions and think "That's a great idea! I should try to provide that for my rabbits!" then that's wonderful! I think it's better for sites to promote larger housing rather than say to just put a rabbit in whatever they want and not worry about it at all. I know that if it weren't for sites like those, I never would have thought of giving my own rabbit more space, which I think he's very happy with. Should anyone make people feel horrible for providing smaller than what they recommend? No. I was part of a forum before this that would basically attack anyone who dared suggest smaller cages for any amount of time. That accomplishes nothing This forum is very friendly and helpful compared to that one. But I for one will continue to suggest bigger housing to anyone who asks about cages, in the nicest way possible, simply because I believe it's a great idea and an important one. I would never push it on anyone who says they can't provide that, but at least I've given them an idea. If not larger housing, then I will simply say to provide as much exercise as possible, especially because rabbits area active at different times and not all at once.


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## Blue eyes (Jul 11, 2012)

*fantaysah wrote: *


> See this is where i find the issue.. why do we have to be made to look bad or that we don't care about our buns if we are "bare minimum" owners? The person who decided that cage size has not been anywhere near my bun or my situation. Many times in this debate people have kinda stated to the effect that if we don't follow that we are bad pet owners and our rabbits are unhappy. Where's the research saying my rabbit isn't happy?



wow. That's quite a bit of accusation and defensiveness. Who is making anyone look bad?

Wendymac posted ARBA cage recommendation sizes. I followed up with the alternate opinion of House Rabbit Society recommendations. I made no condemning remarks. I was simply providing an alternate opinion from another source. 

In response, I was defensively asked to cite scientific back-up for cage sizes as if the lack of such would completely unravel HRS' recommendations. I responded with the statement that both the ARBA and HRS have differing opinions. And that they are both just that - opinions.

Then I stated, "The purpose of forums like this is for people to share ideas to improve the lives of their bunnies and to improve their lives with bunnies. I don't think any of us want to settle for "bare minimum" care for our furries. We want what's best. It's a good thing to want to improve our bunnies' condition. So if we can encourage each other to do just that, that is great." 

I don't see the need for such defensiveness. Nothing here can be construed to be judgemental. An alternate opinion was simply provided. If someone feels guilty over these alternate opinions, that doesn't mean that the one providing the alternate opinion intended to make anyone "look bad."


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## Nelsons_Mom (Jul 11, 2012)

fantaysah wrote:


> Please make a video i have hundreds of cotton tails on my land and have NEVER seen them interact. They see each other and run!



I'll try to get some this evening. They mostly do it around dusk, so we'll see how good I can get it with the lighting.

I didn't know that it was so unusual to see them playing! I've always lived around a lot of woods, so I guess I'm lucky. 

There's this one who likes to sit right in front of where my car is parked and groom himself. One day he kept trying to groom his foot by lifting it up by his head and kept falling over! I almost died laughing.


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## wendymac (Jul 11, 2012)

Actually, ARBA didn't just make up cage sizes, they stated minimum cage requirements. The HRS just randomly stated that they "had" to have certain requirements, as deemed by the group that founded the organization.

It was also stated (and I'm not sure by whom) that if you didn't follow HRS's suggestions, then you shouldn't have a pet rabbit. Or something along those lines. So yes, providing opinions is fine. Encouraging is fine. Saying "go big or don't bring one into your home" isn't.

I have pet rabbits, and I also have a hobby rabbitry. I have inside rabbits and outside rabbits. I've found a balance between the two. For someone to say that breeders should have cages the size of a horse stall is a bit unrealistic. The same for people in apartments. They can provide a smaller cage than HRS recommends, with plenty of time out of the cage, and still have happy, healthy buns. 

I posted the cage sizes from ARBA to show that it's not going to kill your rabbit to live in a cage smaller than HRS's recommendations.


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## Blue eyes (Jul 11, 2012)

*wendymac wrote: *


> Actually, ARBA didn't just make up cage sizes, they stated minimum cage requirements. The HRS just randomly stated that they "had" to have certain requirements, as deemed by the group that founded the organization.
> 
> I posted the cage sizes from ARBA to show that it's not going to kill your rabbit to live in a cage smaller than HRS's recommendations.




Your posting of ARBA's recommendations left the impression that those are "ideal" sizes. I posted HRS' to show alternate recommendations. People can then decide for themselves which they'd rather follow. Or if they care either way. 

But I'd have to disagree on one technicality: ARBA got their cage sizes from Animal Welfare Act, but the Animal Welfare Act just made them up -- no different.


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## fantaysah (Jul 11, 2012)

Not directord at you blue eyes or anyone in particular... directed mostly at the tone of some of the posts. You r right in what you said it is opinion. Its a we hope you can provide a big cage but some people think that the standards are law and they are not otherwise it would be illegal to sell most pet cages esp. The ones who clearly have images of rabbits on the box. I agree that a rabbit should NOT spend 24/7 in a small cage but given opportunity out a small HOME is fine. And about looking bad it was meant as some people feel if you want afford huge or have the space for huge hen you shouldn't have a pet. With ample time out the cage size shouldn't be such an issue. Even he aspca and rescues have to deal with smaller cages but allow time out and its not an issue


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## Nelsons_Mom (Jul 11, 2012)

wendymac wrote:


> Actually, ARBA didn't just make up cage sizes, they stated minimum cage requirements. The HRS just randomly stated that they "had" to have certain requirements, as deemed by the group that founded the organization.
> 
> It was also stated (and I'm not sure by whom) that if you didn't follow HRS's suggestions, then you shouldn't have a pet rabbit. Or something along those lines. So yes, providing opinions is fine. Encouraging is fine. Saying "go big or don't bring one into your home" isn't.
> 
> ...



I think it might have been my comment you were referring to. I think that I must have not been clear enough in my response. 

While it would be unrealistic for every owner to follow the HRS's guidelines (I know I don't follow everything), I think they're good guidelines. For instance, they suggest that your rabbit has 5 hrs of playtime a day (which I know is something that you pointed out as unrealistic) Mine don't. I'm busy and I simply can't afford 5 hours of supervised time. That's why I tried to compensate by having a bigger cage. 

What I have a problem with is people knowing that they cannot WORK WITHIN those guidelines and getting a rabbit anyway. (Such as they won't be able to let the rabbit out much AND have a small cage.) 

The reason I quoted those guidelines was for members who might not have seen them before to think "Wow! This site reccommends a lot of room. I might now be able to afford/have the space for a bigger cage right now, but maybe I can add more out time or look into getting something bigger in the future. I want to make sure my little furry is as happy as I can personally ensure." Or, for people who were doing research prior to getting a rabbit to think "Wow! It is recommended that they have more room than I anticipated. I'll have to make sure that I account for that when I am looking to get supplies." 

And, I completely understand (as I have said before) the difference between the standards of breeders and the standards for pets. I read your blog, Wendy, and for having such a large number of outdoor rabbits, I think you do a very good job. You make sure everyone is clean, protected from the elements, and have their playtime. I didn't mean to offend you if I did with the stuff that I quoted.


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## agnesthelion (Jul 11, 2012)

As an outsider reading through this entire thread, it might be interesting to know that I think you all are saying the same thing! Lol 

Everyone here agrees each bun is different
Everyone here agrees that back in the day buns were seen as "cage animals" who were given no free run so that's where all these minimum cage requirements and such came from
Everyone here loves their bun
And lastly.....
Everyone here just wants to be made to feel that they are doing right by their rabbit(s) whom they love dearly.

I think the majority of the people on here have healthy, happy buns and we are far more educated than thinking rabbits just need to sit in a a cage e all day. We all know that. 

Good discussion though. Lots of great information posted!


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## Nelsons_Mom (Jul 11, 2012)

fantaysah wrote:


> Not directord at you blue eyes or anyone in particular... directed mostly at the tone of some of the posts. You r right in what you said it is opinion. Its a we hope you can provide a big cage but some people think that the standards are law and they are not otherwise it would be illegal to sell most pet cages esp. The ones who clearly have images of rabbits on the box. I agree that a rabbit should NOT spend 24/7 in a small cage but given opportunity out a small HOME is fine. And about looking bad it was meant as some people feel if you want afford huge or have the space for huge hen you shouldn't have a pet. With ample time out the cage size shouldn't be such an issue. Even he aspca and rescues have to deal with smaller cages but allow time out and its not an issue



While I don't think it should be illegal, I (personally) do have an issue with pet store cages. Some are adequate while a rabbit is young, or the largest size with out time, as you pointed out. (Though I personally think they are too small, there are circumstances in which it would be okay).

The main issue I have with it is this:

While there are some "Super Pet" style cages that could work for a small breed with a lot of out time, MOST (because I have not been to all of the nations pet stores) or these sized cages are not the ones traditionally stocked in the store because they are so big they can't really be put on display, and, because of their size, they are more expensive and don't sell well. So, a lot of what they stock is on the small side for an adult rabbit. 

This ties in with my distaste for the selling of live animals in pet stores, I don't like the fact that they sell cages because it is "one stop shopping." If someone were to buy a rabbit on impulse, they might have not done the proper research and might have made the choice for a smaller cage that the bunny would quickly outgrow. 

And most of it is not because of rabbits specifically. Guinea pig and Rat cages are also TOO SMALL for what they are marketed for.

Also, most pet store cages are not designed to keep for the entire 10+ yrs of the rabbit lifespan. I had a well taken care of Super Pet Exotics for my rats (couldn't have been happier since I switched to Martin's). It was only three and the coating on the wire was peeling off and the plastic bottom was warped from washing.


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## wendymac (Jul 11, 2012)

I have a lot to comment on (as usual) but need to go work on the new rabbitry area so time is short. LOL Anyway, even worse than the pet stores selling small cages along with pets, this is even worse! Pet stores running, "buy a cage, get the bunny free" ads! That seems to be the new trend, and I don't care for it at all. Anyway, off to work in the barn...will be back in a few.


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## fantaysah (Jul 11, 2012)

Pet store definitely have issues they are about the money not the pet. Our local petco ( i needed a new leash) had a terarium full of rats that were missing body parts and had large open wounds. One was missing most of its face and they didn't seem to care.


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## Nelsons_Mom (Jul 11, 2012)

wendymac wrote:


> I have a lot to comment on (as usual) but need to go work on the new rabbitry area so time is short. LOL Anyway, even worse than the pet stores selling small cages along with pets, this is even worse! Pet stores running, "buy a cage, get the bunny free" ads! That seems to be the new trend, and I don't care for it at all. Anyway, off to work in the barn...will be back in a few.



I have never heard of this! I'm instantly full of rage. Good thing the buns are out running now. Their cuteness is always a comfort c: Lil is presently zooooooooooming around.


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## wendymac (Jul 11, 2012)

Oh, yeah... and one is a local pet store, who should know better but is choosing making a buck over the health and welfare of the bunnies. There's always a pet store advertising on pennswoods, too, the very same thing. Probably where the idiot got the idea to begin with. *ends rant*

Hubby has me pissed, so I better stop typing now. lol


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## Anaira (Jul 11, 2012)

Just adding my two cents worth...people tell me Reuben is the laziest rabbit ever, and doesn't need to free-range my bedroom, he just spends all day snoozing. Not true. I'm a night owl, and often spend most of the night awake, falling asleep at about 4, and sleeping right through dawn; but the few times I have been awake, Reuben has really woken up then. It's so cool just lying there, seeing him get up to his little bunny games in the partial dark! When Willoughby was alive, I was frequently woken by him(and when they were friends, Rubey too) going mad in the early morning. He also snoozed most of the day. 

Also, when Reuben thinks no one is around, he sneaks out of my room, and explores the house. Because no one sees him, they assume he never exercises. When I put him outside to free range the garden, he doesn't start playing right away, he often spends a good amount of time not doing much. But suddenly he'll decide it's play time and binky all the way across the garden. Because no one sees this, they tell me he'd be just as happy in his (rough estimate here!) 6' by 2' hutch-and-run. Not true, because he couldn't get the same momentum in there that he can inside, or in the garden. 

So anyway, my point is, it's not enough to say a small cage is fine because bunny never does much anyway, and s/he gets lots of out time; because rabbits don't play on our terms, or when we have time to let them out. They play when they want, and if you let them out during the day, chances are they aren't going to play. But when they do feel like it, they can't(in my opinion, an adult rabbit wouldn't be able to play properly in the OP's cage. The baby looks ok in it though, for the time being)

Oh, and so people don't get me wrong; there's nothing wrong with Reuben's outside wire run size. 6 by 2, or whatever it is looks fine for a rabbit, to me. If someone has a rabbit in an indoor cage that size, that's great; I just think the more room, the better. I can give him more, so he gets it. This turned into something of a ramble, I'm sorry if it makes no sense.


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## woahlookitsme (Jul 11, 2012)

silversky2668 wrote:


> I read somewhere that smaller breed rabbits tend to be more active than larger breeds.Â  Does anyone know if this is true?Â  (Think the youtube video "The real energizer bunny").Â  I do know that my rabbit is larger breed and he tends to sleep most of the afternoon and get more active early morning/late at night.Â  That's especially one of the reasons I provide him with an xpen all of the time, because I don't get up really early, which is when I hear him running around like a maniac Â



I just wanted to answer this one that got skipped over. I have not found this to be true with purebred rabbits at least. With the different mixes of rabbits it might be true but mine and my moms rabbits are total opposites. Her Polish are always so lazy (2.5lbs rabbits) and my Tans along with other running breeds are hyper and active rabbits (5-6lb rabbits). I have noticed that the calmer rabbits are more compact breeds such as mini rex, polish, commercial typed breeds, etc. Running or arch typed rabbits are more on the active side and only one of those is a small typed rabbit (Brits). Although small breeds hollands and dwarfs are also known to have a crazy side to them. If you mean larger rabbits to be 10+ lbs then yes most of those are pretty lazy but there are exceptions (such as the checkered giant). Just what I have noticed


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## MyJuneAngel (Jul 11, 2012)

Our first bunny was a rescue bunny. She was living in a rubbermaid container with a wire mesh fastened across the top. She was an Easter present for a kid who got tired of her quickly. We got her in September so you figure she was about 8 months old by then. She could NOT lay down in her 'cage' and stretch out. She couldn't see out, only up (and then she saw everything distorted through the mesh). Her water bottle was fastened to the inside part of the handle of the tub (we're not talking one of the big tubs that you'd put a Christmas tree in or something, we're talking something maybe 10"x18". They threw pine shavings in the bottom and that is where she slept, ate and used the potty. They threw her food right down in the pine shavings with her. They did give her greens but she had never been given hay. A month or so before we adopted her we cared for her while they went on vacation. I was shocked in how she was living. I assumed the little storage tote was just a makeshift cage to bring her to our house in. I was informed that no, she lived there all the time. They said she loved it. It made me cry. 

Right now we have our girls in a NIC cage in our play room. They have the nicest room in the house, truth be told, the only one we've finished remodeling completely. They have AC that blows right past their cage in the summer and heat in the winter. They get plenty of free roaming time every day and when they spend a good 40 minutes or so jumping and running and exploring and then they pick a place and lay down. When they are in their cage they don't have a lot of room to roam around (thus the reason we are remodeling the cage when the new box of NIC panels comes TOMORROW). 

Our boy isn't in a cage. He is cordoned off in a hallway with a baby gate. The area he has is about 3 foot wide. Depending on where we move the gate to he has 3 to 6 feet in length. He moves around his area but he doesn't play. He doesn't run or anything. Mostly he lays in the back by the back door (that isn't used right now since he is in the hallway) or up by the front of the gate. I'm an extreme night owl and my husband is up really early and we never see him playing in his area. He also gets plenty of time out of his enclosure. He runs, binkies, jumps on the couch, goes down the steps in to the play room and visits the girls through their cages, etc. He will only do this for about 20 minutes though before he goes back to his area and takes a nap. In fact, most of the day his gate is open and he just lays in his area without being confined. He likes it, I guess. I like that he has a good amount of space but I'd like it a lot better if I could use that back door. LOL

Anyway, like someone said, they are all different, quite obviously. In the case of our first rabbit, I really feel like it was neglect. I mean, she had NO air holes on the sides of this tub and she couldn't stretch out at all. She had to lay with her feet under her.  I don't see anyone on here doing their animals such a disservice, fortunately.

Pet stores - Ugh... that is a whole other rant!! I can't believe some of the crap that happens at pet stores. My mom thoroughly ticks me off because she is always bringing home pets from a pet store. I know very little about guinea pigs but they sold her a guinea that they said was 3 weeks old. Isn't that far too young to be weaned? They sold her a 4 week old rabbit. They told her it was a mini and wouldn't get big at all. It is bigger than my rabbits who are a large breed (larger than my 10 pound West Highland dog). They also told her to give the BABY rabbit as much lettuce and cucumbers and such as it would eat. I was so mad to hear all of this.  Our local farm store sells rabbits too and my friend bought one there. She actually worked there at the time and whoever brought the rabbits in told them that they were dwarfs. When the rabbit outgrew its cage they had to get rid of it because they didn't have room. Their kids cried for weeks. It all could have been avoided if people selling the animals had been truthful and people buying them did more research. Ugh.


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## jap08m (Jul 12, 2012)

fantaysah wrote:


> See this is where i find the issue.. why do we have to be made to look bad or that we don't care about our buns if we are "bare minimum" owners? The person who decided that cage size has not been anywhere near my bun or my situation. Many times in this debate people have kinda stated to the effect that if we don't follow that we are bad pet owners and our rabbits are unhappy. Where's the research saying my rabbit isn't happy?



:yeahthat::yeahthat:


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## jap08m (Jul 12, 2012)

maisy&layla wrote:


> This is the cage that I have for my rabbit. Does it have everything she needs ? and is there enough space etc ?
> 
> She has;
> a house with straw for sleep/naps.
> ...


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## majorv (Jul 12, 2012)

*Blue eyes wrote: *


> *fantaysah wrote: *
> 
> 
> > See this is where i find the issue.. why do we have to be made to look bad or that we don't care about our buns if we are "bare minimum" owners? The person who decided that cage size has not been anywhere near my bun or my situation. Many times in this debate people have kinda stated to the effect that if we don't follow that we are bad pet owners and our rabbits are unhappy. Where's the research saying my rabbit isn't happy?
> ...


Actually, the worst of the posts, earlier in this thread, were deleted by the mod...


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## fantaysah (Jul 12, 2012)

*Nelsons_Mom wrote: *


> fantaysah wrote:
> 
> 
> > Please make a video i have hundreds of cotton tails on my land and have NEVER seen them interact. They see each other and run!
> ...


i grew up in nedneck ga!! have seen a thousand wild rabbits and never saw them playing.


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## fantaysah (Jul 12, 2012)

*majorv wrote: *


> *Blue eyes wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *fantaysah wrote: *
> ...


yep... the juicy parts gone now.


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## Blue eyes (Jul 12, 2012)

*majorv wrote: *


> *Blue eyes wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *fantaysah wrote: *
> ...


Ahh, I had already disregarded the bulk of the conversation that occurred on the 8th. There was a seemingly new thought beginning on the 11th with the post about ARBA's chart. I thought all that defensive talk was referring to the newer conversation starting on the 11th with the chart. The new conversation didn't seem to be viral. But apparently it ruffled some old feathers. I guess fantaysah was still referring to the conversation from the 8th.


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## Samara (Jul 12, 2012)

/smooths down feathers/ h34r2


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## MiniLopHop (Jul 12, 2012)

I agree that everyone knows their bunnies best. One situation I was recently involved with made me really sad. I volunteer at the local SPCA and they had a rabbit that they used for educational programs in schools, but they had not done a program in a number of years. She was an 8 year old mini lop who was unspayed. It took me almost two months to even find out her name, BB (black bunny). Her entire life was spent in a pet store cage, roomy by their standards, but still about 3ft by 2ft. She had a poor diet (way too many pellets and carrots, not enough hay or greens), no exercise, no toys. She was very over weight, long toe nails, and depressed. 

I was able to advocate for her so her diet improved and I would get her out of the cage to play a bit. I gave her toys, but by the next day when I came in they were gone again. Unfortunately when I finally convinced them to spay her she ended up passing away. She had uterine cancer that had spread all over her body, including the lungs.

My point is that if the SPCA cares for their rabbits in this way, as an animal welfare organization, then *what hope does the general public have?* It makes me sad for rabbits that people, in general, are so ignorant of how intelligent and interactive these wonderful animals are. It comes down to quality of life.

To me, the whole point of this forum is to help people learn about rabbits and share their knowledge so everyone ends up with much happier buns.


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## Samara (Jul 12, 2012)

:thumbup:nod


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