# what breed?



## Dashie (Oct 18, 2013)

i was told she was a dwarf but i don't see it


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## Zaiya (Oct 18, 2013)

Her ears are very long for being a dwarf... How old is she? How much does she weigh and/or can you provide us with a pic that compares her to another object, like your hand?


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## Dashie (Oct 18, 2013)

Heres some pictures of here next to her banna nut stick (didnt want to pick her up since I only put her back in her cage 15-20 minutes ago) found some other pictures of her when I first got her. i was told shes 2-3 months


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## Nancy McClelland (Oct 18, 2013)

Looks to be part Dutch and no look of a Netherland--head and ears are different from that breed. Looks a lot like our little guy Cosmo, but he's a rescue that came to us with no info.


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## Dashie (Oct 18, 2013)

Since Pop Tart is my first bunny I didn't know. But Pet Smart we bought her from told us they only sold dwarfs. I was very shocked when they classified her as a dwarf because I knew she wasn't. She was way too big to be a Dwarf.


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## majorv (Oct 18, 2013)

Dwarf is a commonly used word which I think they use just to indicate size. She looks nothing like a netherland dwarf. I agree with Larry that I do see some Dutch in her. She is cute!


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## whitelop (Oct 18, 2013)

I think shes part Dutch too. She is very similar to my Dutch. And mine is only like 4 lbs, so still a pretty small rabbit. 
She's super cute though!


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## Dashie (Oct 18, 2013)

majorv said:


> Dwarf is a commonly used word which I think they use just to indicate size. She looks nothing like a netherland dwarf. I agree with Larry that I do see some Dutch in her. She is cute!



Pet stores really should be ashamed of themselves! If they use "dwarfs" to describe "baby" or "not fully grown" bunnies, they are false advertising. hwell: I hope find out what else Little miss Pop Tart here is. So If I choose to mate her I know what to tell the people the baby's are mixed with. 

:thanks: for helping me.


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## Dashie (Oct 18, 2013)

whitelop said:


> I think shes part Dutch too. She is very similar to my Dutch. And mine is only like 4 lbs, so still a pretty small rabbit.
> She's super cute though!



Your rabbit is so cute!:heartbeat:

:thanks: for your input


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## whitelop (Oct 18, 2013)

I know this doesn't have anything to do with her breed, but why would you want to breed her when she is possibly a mix? 
Breeding just to breed isn't the right thing to do. The shelters and pet stores are filled with bunnies just like your and just like mine, that are pet quality, poorly bred rabbits. 

Breeding should be about bettering a breed, if you're going to breed you should have a huge plan in place, to make the offspring better. Whether it be to make a new color or make sure that they don't have tooth problems. The breed should improve through each passing generation. 
They shouldn't just be bred to make cute babies, that grow up into hormonal teenagers and get let loose in the wild to die or put in a shelter. 
Pet store bunnies aren't the bunnies you breed. You're not adding anything to the gene pools other than just extra bunnies. 

So before you go through with breeding, talk to other breeders. They are the ones with the best experience. 

Oh and I noticed in the pictures that she has those little honey/seed sticks. Those aren't good for rabbits, its junk food. And her pellets have corn in them, rabbits don't safely digest corn hulls. So a plain pellet would be the best thing for her, something without all the extras.


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## Dashie (Oct 19, 2013)

whitelop said:


> I know this doesn't have anything to do with her breed, but why would you want to breed her when she is possibly a mix?
> Breeding just to breed isn't the right thing to do. The shelters and pet stores are filled with bunnies just like your and just like mine, that are pet quality, poorly bred rabbits.
> 
> Breeding should be about bettering a breed, if you're going to breed you should have a huge plan in place, to make the offspring better. Whether it be to make a new color or make sure that they don't have tooth problems. The breed should improve through each passing generation.
> ...



I am WANT to breed to end up creating/finding a new breed. all the buns babies will be taking care of and loved. None will be taking to a shelter. Plus I was just thinking about breeding her (for this moment) nothing will be set in place till next couple of years. 


Regaurds to the things in her cages. all of this came with starter kit (came with cage and everything) from tractor supply. I noticed she didn't like it that much but I left it in there since she nibbles on it here and there. The food came with everything, and I am going to switch her food to all pellets when this bag is finished.


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## RabbitGirl101 (Oct 19, 2013)

Looks to be part dutch, I actually would not say that she is part netherland dwarf. If you look at her fur you can tell it is very short and almost the same length as her guard hairs. She looks like a mini rex x dutch cross. Her fur obviously isn't exactly as a rex's coat would be but, it is too short to be just rollback or flyback fur.
Well rex have flyback but for the most part beside rex, rabbits wont have this short of coat.


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## Dashie (Oct 19, 2013)

RabbitGirl101 said:


> Looks to be part dutch, I actually would not say that she is part netherland dwarf. If you look at her fur you can tell it is very short and almost the same length as her guard hairs. She looks like a mini rex x dutch cross. Her fur obviously isn't exactly as a rex's coat would be but, it is too short to be just rollback or flyback fur.
> Well rex have flyback but for the most part beside rex, rabbits wont have this short of coat.



this has to be. she has short legs/coat like a mini rex would and color/pattern/ears and face of a dutch. thank you so much! :thanks:


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## kira&#10084;tonio!! (Oct 22, 2013)

It is either a baby hair or a mini lop xx


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## Sweetie (Oct 22, 2013)

I would say some breed of Rex, either mini or standard, and some dutch.


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## mb123 (Oct 22, 2013)

A Rex or mini Rex probably 


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## funnybunnymummy (Oct 22, 2013)

If I was to choose to breed, I wouldn't get my stock from Petsmart. I'd go to a qualified breeder (or two) and choose my stock from them. Then I wouldn't have to post on RO asking what breed people thought my rabbit was. I'd know.

Just sayin'.

Rue


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## Dashie (Dec 6, 2013)

funnybunnymummy said:


> If I was to choose to breed, I wouldn't get my stock from Petsmart. I'd go to a qualified breeder (or two) and choose my stock from them. Then I wouldn't have to post on RO asking what breed people thought my rabbit was. I'd know.
> 
> Just sayin'.
> 
> Rue




I am not the one that got pop tart. My mother got it from a pet store not knowing any other better. I mean it was my mother. I'm not going to make a big deal outta it when she was trying to make me have a good birthday.


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## Imbrium (Dec 7, 2013)

I'm actually a breeder myself, though I breed sugar gliders (small, exotic marsupials), not rabbits - I'd like to offer my thoughts on breeding. Please read with an open mind and the realization that I'm not trying to convince you not to breed; I'm simply trying to help you make an informed decision and go about it the right way if you decide to pursue breeding . I know it's a wall of text, but there's a lot to consider before becoming a breeder!

First, I've heard it's best to breed a doe for the first time when she's fully grown but still pretty young (by the time she's around a year old) - it's not the best idea to start a breeding program with her a couple years down the road.

Secondly, I wouldn't trust a pet store to have rabbits that are good breeding stock or that are even pure breeds. If you're wanting to breed to improve a breed or possibly discover a new one (MUCH easier said than done), you'll want to start with solid breeding stock with a known genetic background.

I recommend keeping Pop Tart as pet only and using her to learn all the ins-and-outs of bunny ownership and care, then getting new purebred rabbits if/when you start a breeding program down the road. While it seems that having extensive lineage on breeding animals isn't stressed nearly as much in the rabbit world as it is with gliders, I'm sure it's still pretty important.

As for why it's stressed more with gliders, that's mostly because gliders are so "new" that they're not even considered domesticated and a god-awful mess was created by extensive inbreeding in the early days of colored gliders. Each non-standard color can be traced back to no more than 1-3 origin points (either a glider of that color that was wild caught or a pair that first produced a recessive color) and people inbred irresponsibly for a while in an attempt to figure out how the genes work - it's a mess we're still trying to clean up a decade later. Also, the extensive inbreeding caused some serious genetic issues, the biggest of which was an x-linked recessive gene that affected one of the three mosaic lines and caused sterility - meaning it was passed by the mothers but ONLY affected males (a female would have to have two copies of the gene to be sterile, which was impossible because one copy would have to come from each parent and a male that carried a copy would be unable to reproduce).

~~~~~

Breeding is expensive and difficult. Finding homes for babies is easier said than done most of the time, especially with a rabbit whose exact breed/background aren't necessarily known since that greatly reduces the odds of being able to sell some offspring to other breeders. A lot of people seeking a pet rabbit or two (at least, a lot of the rabbit-savvy ones) prefer not to go through a breeder - it's an expensive route due to the necessity and cost of spaying/neutering.

If you really wish to start a breeding program, I urge you to do your research and get to know other breeders first. A great place to begin is the ARBA website. Once you've done some research, the ideal way to really get your feet wet in the breeding community is to go to some rabbit shows and talk to breeders (and judges) there - ask a lot of questions, like what the "ideal" characteristics of a breed are, how to select good breeding stock, etc.

Honestly, coming up with a "new breed" (let alone getting it recognized) is nearly impossible and could result in a LOT of time, work and money invested with nothing to show for it - it's like buying lottery tickets; yes, some people win... but most never do. I know this isn't what you want to hear, but it's really not a good "starting" goal - it's like diving into the deep end to learn how to swim. I completely understand the desire to create a new breed - god knows I get *really* into the genetics aspect of glider breeding! It's just that, quite frankly, that aspect of breeding is a crap-shoot if it's your main (or only) goal. You'll also need to do a LOT of research above and beyond what most breeders do when it comes to rabbit genetics in order to start a program oriented towards creating a new breed.

That said, since that avenue really appeals to you, a more viable option would be to work with a breed that people are currently trying to establish as recognized (one such breed is lionheads), as that gives you the best chance of really being able to contribute to the breeding community. I'm actually doing this in my sugar glider breeding program - I've got a leucistic male paired to a cremeino female (those are two different recessive colorings; it's similar to breeding two different rabbit breeds) to create gliders that are carriers for the "ruby leucistic" coloring.

Being "ruby leu" requires a glider to BE both cremeino and leucistic (ie have two copies of each recessive gene) - they get the white/cream color of a leucistic because the leucistic gene washes out the coat (including any markings that would normally show) of the glider, but they have the red eyes of a cremeino because the leu gene only affects fur color, not eye color. It's a VERY new/recently discovered coloring that people have only really started to understand the ins-and-outs of in the last year or two.

Also worth noting: participating in shows (assuming you breed a recognized breed) can be a great way to establish yourself as a breeder, make connections with other breeders and find homes for some of your kits. Even if you don't have any rabbits that are eligible for showing, you can still benefit from making an appearance at any shows in your area and getting to know people there.

In addition to ARBA, another good resource would be to get to know some of the breeders here on RO - if you're willing to really listen to advice, they'll have a lot to offer you. Learning all the ins-and-outs of responsible breeding (including how to select breeding stock) is a very daunting task regardless of the animal you work with. It's virtually impossible to do things properly from the get-go unless you've got a good mentor... but fortunately, many breeders are more than willing to share their knowledge with someone starting out. Finding a mentor is by far the best thing you can do if you wish to start a breeding program.

We've got numerous members who have been breeding for a very long time... you might try starting with a post of "looking for a potential breeding mentor" in the "Rabbitry and Show Room" section to see if you can find someone who's got the time to chat with you about the rabbit-specific ins and outs of breeding via PM. Not only could they answer pretty much any question you think of, but they may be able to point you in the direction of good places to do research and may have other resources to offer you (for example, they might know someone outside of RO who works with a breed you're interested in and be able to connect you with that person).

Another thing to consider about breeding is that it involves a fair share of heartbreak. You can have kits die or be rejected, you can lose a doe to pregnancy/birth complications, etc. It's common for first (and sometimes even second) time moms to do a piss-poor job at parenting (the same is true in the glider world). I experienced just how brutal breeding can be with my first pregnancy - my white-faced blonde girl, Tabitha, who was Lemmy (my leucistic male)'s original mate fell incredibly ill *very* abruptly when she had their first joey in her pouch (4 weeks into the 9 week period they spend in the pouch before coming out) and passed away minutes before we reached the emergency vet of what her necropsy revealed was a liver infection. Losing Tabby and Tiger (her unborn joey) was devastating - she was so young (she passed on her 9 month birthday) and Jay and I had already become SO attached to our charismatic little girl. It's important to be sure you can handle tough losses before committing to becoming a breeder, as you'll inevitably experience them.

Something any breeder has to be prepared for is what happens with breeding animals once they're a few years old and need to be retired. Typically, breeders either keep these animals themselves as pets or place them in a good "pet only" home. With rabbits, you need to consider that unspayed females have an average lifespan that's HALF that of spayed females.

This means two things - one, it's in the does' best interests to get them spayed upon retirement (which can be costly) and two, it's a distinct possibility that a doe will already have some sort of reproductive cancer by the time they reach retirement age. If it's caught early and hasn't spread, it's often possible to eradicate the cancer simply by getting the doe spayed (with ovarian/uterine cancer, anyway, as mammary glands aren't removed during a typical spay)... however, if the cancer is advanced, you may have to foot some pretty steep vet bills and/or have a doe euthanized to end her suffering.

Part of being a breeder is knowing how to be emotionally detached enough from offspring to be able to easily give them up to new homes while still showing them love and affection for as long as they're with you... but breeding stock is different - they're in your care for years and can easily become as beloved as any normal pet, so having to put a retired breeding animal to sleep can be heartbreaking.

Also, breeding requires resources. Housing and upkeep for all your rabbits, including enough cages to house offspring that may not sell for a few months and need to be housed individually due to reaching sexual maturity and getting hormonal, is just the start. You also have to be prepared for the possibility of major vet bills, especially if something were to happen that affected much of your herd. I've spent $800-1000 on vet bills for four gliders (well, five, but no more than four at once) since becoming a breeder last January, between routine check-ups (especially for new gliders), some health issues (Hobbes had enteritis last summer and got x-rayed to check for an obstruction, scoped, cultured, etc. and sent home with metacam and Flagyl to the tune of $357, for example) and getting Tabby necropsied.

When breeding any animal responsibly, you're generally lucky to break even - it's not exactly a profitable endeavor; people do it out of love for the animal and a desire to improve the lines. While it sounds like you wouldn't be in it to make money anyway, you should be aware that it's possible to lose money when breeding (and that can happen due simply to bad luck - it's not always preventable).

One way you might be able to cut costs (possibly significantly) is by talking to your vet. Depending on the size of your breeding program and the policies of your particular vet, they may be willing to offer you a "breeder discount" based on the fact that you'll be providing them with more business than a typical pet owner. If you live in an area where there are multiple rabbit-savvy exotics vets to choose from, it may pay to shop around.

Doubling back to what I mentioned about it being hard to sell "pet only" offspring due to the necessity and cost of spaying/neutering...
~ Many breeders choose to require pet owners to sign some sort of "adoption" contract. Among other things, the contract may give the breeder the "right of first refusal" if the owner(s) decide to get rid of the animal(s), meaning they'd have to offer the animal(s) back to the breeder first - only if the breeder declined could they turn the animal(s) over to a shelter or offer them on Craigslist, etc.
Another common clause in such contracts is one that requires the owner(s) to get the animal(s) fixed when they come of age. Some breeders offer an incentive, like refunding the original purchase price once someone provides proof from their vet that the surgery has been done.
~ While you're talking to your vet about the possibility of a discount, another thing you might ask about is if they'd be willing to offer discounted spay/neuter surgeries to people who buy a pet rabbit from you if the person shows them the contract they signed with you (or some other "proof of purchase"). This benefits the vet by getting them more business (and potentially, more long-term customers) and it benefits you by letting you provide people with incentive to purchase a pet rabbit from you instead of going through a shelter or something.

If you think you're prepared to handle all of the downsides of breeding (or at least, that you will be by the time you're ready to start a breeding program), then start poking around the ARBA site and talking to breeders here. Also, I know there's a good rabbit forum somewhere that caters primarily to breeders, though I can't remember what it is. I'm fairly certain some of the breeders here are members of a breeding-oriented forum in addition to hanging out on RO, so one of them may be able to point you in the right direction. RO strives to be breeder-friendly, but in all honesty it's primarily a community of pet owners and sometimes we fall short of that goal.

One last thought... you'll need to be somewhat thick-skinned if you're going to breed (and not just when it comes to RO). Some "pet" people are very accepting of breeders... some, not so much. Other breeders can occasionally come off as harsh if they worry that you might be headed more in the "backyard breeder" direction - they're genuinely trying to help, but some beginning breeders require a little "tough love" to stay on the right track and most experienced breeders don't hesitate to be brutally honest with people if they feel it's needed (not to mention that "tone" can be difficult to convey online). I've seen this done countless times on glider forums (and had to do it myself on occasion) to discourage irresponsible breeding practices.

Basically, you'll need to be able to shrug off harshness while still being able to recognize when someone has a valid point (which other breeders nearly always will). In any breeding community, regardless of the animal, there are "dos" and "don'ts" as well as general "breeder etiquette" that people are expected to adhere to.

Anyway, sorry for the REALLY long-winded post - if you made it all the way through, then I certainly appreciate you hearing me out! I hope I've given you some things to think about and some jumping-off points for planning out your future breeding program if you decide to pursue one .


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## majorv (Dec 7, 2013)

You covered it well, Jennifer. I agree that breeding a doe for the first time should be done between 6 mos-12 mos of age. It can be done after that but it's more risky, for the doe and the kits.


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## Azerane (Dec 9, 2013)

Imbrium said:


> That said, since that avenue really appeals to you, a more viable option would be to work with a breed that people are currently trying to establish as recognized (one such breed is lionheads), as that gives you the best chance of really being able to contribute to the breeding community.



Weren't lionheads recently accepted?


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## Imbrium (Dec 9, 2013)

Were they? They aren't listed on the ARBA site as a recognized breed; however, I'm not exactly "in the loop" when it comes to showing bunnies... perhaps they haven't updated the site?

Even if they are recognized, I bet there's another breed out there that people are still trying to get accepted


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## RabbitGirl101 (Dec 9, 2013)

Dashie said:


> I am WANT to breed to end up creating/finding a new breed. all the buns babies will be taking care of and loved. None will be taking to a shelter. Plus I was just thinking about breeding her (for this moment) nothing will be set in place till next couple of years.
> 
> 
> Regaurds to the things in her cages. all of this came with starter kit (came with cage and everything) from tractor supply. I noticed she didn't like it that much but I left it in there since she nibbles on it here and there. The food came with everything, and I am going to switch her food to all pellets when this bag is finished.



Please don't breed just to breed. Creating a new breed takes years of dedication. You have to be a member of ARBA and you have to do extensive research on genetics and I won't go into depth on how much you will have to breed. You would not be able to breed just once. You would have to have hundreds of top quality animals, to achieve a new breed status, maybe not at once but with a couple of years hundreds of animals would have passed by you. Becoming a COD holder is also very difficult and you would have to develop a standard for that breed you want to create. It would take a minimum of three years just to get them presented and accepted. Assuming that you pass each presentation and also assuming you have already talked to ARBA to get the COD. 
If you are still thinking of creating a new breed, let me tell you it does NOT take just three short years, its more like 20 short years. Lionheads took forever to get accepted and there were multiple COD holders that had to drop the presentation or they failed it. There also many different colors, yet only two colors passed in lionheads. 

Please don't breed unless you plan on dedicating your life to developing a new, healthy and unique breed. Thank you.


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## whitelop (Dec 9, 2013)

Lionheads were recently accepted. Like a month or two ago, so they are now a recognized ARBA breed.


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## majorv (Dec 9, 2013)

I'll just add that they are only recognized in tort and REW though.


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## zombiesue (Dec 9, 2013)

RabbitGirl101 said:


> Please don't breed just to breed. Creating a new breed takes years of dedication. You have to be a member of ARBA and you have to do extensive research on genetics and I won't go into depth on how much you will have to breed. You would not be able to breed just once. You would have to have hundreds of top quality animals, to achieve a new breed status, maybe not at once but with a couple of years hundreds of animals would have passed by you. Becoming a COD holder is also very difficult and you would have to develop a standard for that breed you want to create. It would take a minimum of three years just to get them presented and accepted. Assuming that you pass each presentation and also assuming you have already talked to ARBA to get the COD.
> If you are still thinking of creating a new breed, let me tell you it does NOT take just three short years, its more like 20 short years. Lionheads took forever to get accepted and there were multiple COD holders that had to drop the presentation or they failed it. There also many different colors, yet only two colors passed in lionheads.
> 
> Please don't breed unless you plan on dedicating your life to developing a new, healthy and unique breed. Thank you.



I'd like to reiterate this. Just to be allowed to say you're working on a breed takes a few years of ARBA membership, and then you might find that the breed you're working so hard on can't be accepted.

Take, for instance, the 'plush lop'--the rules say that a rabbit can't qualify as a new breed if it only differs in fur type. So there's all these people working on a rabbit breed that will NEVER EVER be accepted as its own breed unless they come up with some other difference.

Furthermore, I'm sorry, but no one is going to take you seriously. Your rabbit is cute, and it was a great present, but it's not a breeding animal. I don't think your mother will be offended if you decide not to breed her, and you absolutely should not.


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## aj82 (Dec 9, 2013)

She is a super cute bunny! Very pretty indeed x


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## akane (Dec 10, 2013)

Petstores slap the dwarf label on anything that fits in their cages. Most are mutts of at least 2 breed crosses and the rest are just poor representations of the breed. This is a pure netherland dwarf from a breeder who sells solely to petstores





She's just a crappy netherland dwarf but her color was cool. We finally sorted it out to be a marten and self chinchilla and sable (or dark chinchilla and light chinchilla whatever you want to call those genes) plus nonextension.

This is also a pure netherland dwarf from a show breeder who sold her as a pet because she didn't inherit much that looks ND. Asking a show judge she turned out to be DQ on multiple accounts from being shown as an ND. White toenail, too heavy, and bad conformation.





You could just simply have a badly bred dutch.

Making your own breed is a lot easier when you take pedigreed stock with the characteristics you want and combine it rather than picking up unknowns and trying to sort out the genetics in the process. There's a reason most people start with mildly inbred stock as their first breeding pair or trio. It gives a predictable result until you have the knowledge to buy more stock that improves on what you have. Otherwise if you start out crossing very unrelated lines you get everything under the sun and if you don't know what the breed should look like, produce, or act like then you can't choose what to show and breed. It's even more extreme when you take mutts and cross them. Fun genetic experiments but what's your plan for the large number of offspring it will take to breed back down to a predictable result? We couldn't hardly give purebred mini rex away here and there is not an overabundance of them. I drove out of state to get my chocolates, 2hrs one way to get a pair of broken blues, and 4hrs one way in to WI to get some more blues and blacks since they couldn't be found here. People just go to petstores to get pet rabbits and the major pet stores have contracts with major breeders that they can't break. Other pet stores actually charge you to take in the rabbits they are going to turn around and sell. If you don't have pedigreed rabbits to take to shows and sell to other breeders and people that want to show there is no market for them or a very small market you will fill by next year. Then what? It would be a good idea to experience with some purebred stock, maybe even work on a color that isn't approved yet, before trying to make a new breed. Then you need a plan for the offspring that can't be shown and also don't fit in to your next generation breeding plan as you progress your new breed.


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