# Mini Rex Colours



## BlueCamasRabbitry (Nov 28, 2008)

I have a REW doe and a REW buck, as well as a Chinchilla buck. 

I know that Broken Black can be bred to these colours (at least I know for sure, REW; what about to a Chinchilla?) 

Can Broken Opal breed to any of these colours? I really love to have some broken opals and broken blacks!! 

Thanks

Emily


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## bunnybunbunb (Nov 29, 2008)

REW should only be bred to REW unless the REW in question's genetic code is known. If you was breeding for a show litter you would not breed a broken black to a REW unless you knew said REW was geneticly black or broken black. What happens if the REW is a broken castor(in mini rex case)? You end up with solid, broken and charlie blacks and castors. The blacks are likely to get white hairs and the castor's will probably have horrible under color.

If you want to breed for show you should pick a color, not just get colorsthat _can_ be bred together and _possibly_ give nice colors. Do you know proper undercolor for opals? I had acouple opals born, most notably wheretwo lovely mini rex girls. One had everything in type minus depth and the other lacked dwarf gene and width. On the outside you thought "nice" but when you looked at their undercoat they lacked the proper blueish color. Top ring was lovely, middle ring the most beautiful color of orange(ish/gold) but when the bottom came you got WHITE.

If you want to breed for blacks and opals you need an agouti carrying self that is or carries dilute and aself that is or carries dilute. If both parents are dilute it will not work. Now this being said with this breeding you have possibilities of black(expect dull color - white hairs), castor(expect dull, grey, "smutty" and/or bad under color - white hairs), blue(poor top/under color) and opal(expect poor under color).


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Nov 29, 2008)

*bunnybunbunb wrote: *


> REW should only be bred to REW unless the REW in question's genetic code is known. If you was breeding for a show litter you would not breed a broken black to a REW unless you knew said REW was geneticly black or broken black. What happens if the REW is a broken castor(in mini rex case)? You end up with solid, broken and charlie blacks and castors. The blacks are likely to get white hairs and the castor's will probably have horrible under color.* Roger (RAL Rabbitry) and I discussed the REW to other colour breeding. He said that REW could in fact be bred to Broken Black. I do know the background colours of both the REW's as well as their parents colours. I would look them up for ya, but Im out of state and dont carry that stuff with me  unless to a show. *
> 
> If you want to breed for show you should pick a color, not just get colorsthat _can_ be bred together and _possibly_ give nice colors. *I am picking a colour  *Do you know proper undercolor for opals?* Uhm no. That's why I asked. *I had acouple opals born, most notably wheretwo lovely mini rex girls. One had everything in type minus depth and the other lacked dwarf gene and width. On the outside you thought "nice" but when you looked at their undercoat they lacked the proper blueish color. Top ring was lovely, middle ring the most beautiful color of orange(ish/gold) but when the bottom came you got WHITE.
> 
> If you want to breed for blacks and opals you need an agouti carrying self that is or carries dilute and aself that is or carries dilute. *What is dilute and how do I know they carry it!?!*If both parents are dilute it will not work. Now this being said with this breeding you have possibilities of black(expect dull color - white hairs), castor(expect dull, grey, "smutty" and/or bad under color - white hairs), blue(poor top/under color) and opal(expect poor under color).




My answers are in bold.


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## bunnybunbunb (Nov 29, 2008)

*BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote: *


> *bunnybunbunb wrote: *
> 
> 
> > REW should only be bred to REW unless the REW in question's genetic code is known. If you was breeding for a show litter you would not breed a broken black to a REW unless you knew said REW was geneticly black or broken black. What happens if the REW is a broken castor(in mini rex case)? You end up with solid, broken and charlie blacks and castors. The blacks are likely to get white hairs and the castor's will probably have horrible under color.* Roger (RAL Rabbitry) and I discussed the REW to other colour breeding. He said that REW could in fact be bred to Broken Black. I do know the background colours of both the REW's as well as their parents colours. I would look them up for ya, but Im out of state and dont carry that stuff with me  unless to a show. *
> ...



I am not saying he lied or is wrong but it all depends on what the specific genetic color code is for the REW. I had a REW buck that was registered and had 3 legs, most beautiful mini rex as far as type goes I ever had. He was the father of the opals I talked about. I bred him to a Blue, my mistake, his whole background was white so I had no way to know possible genetic type. He ended up being AAbbccddEE which means if he did not having the masking REW color he would have been a Lynx. Lynx + blue ended in two lovely yet poorly undercolored does. It is not just what is on the outside that matters in breeding.

Your picking a color yet you are kind of all over. White(that is what it is called in mini rex), chin, opal and black. I do not advise having so many colors mixed into one breeding program. If my guess is correct your white buck(the baby from the broken blue doe and chin buck?) is castor which most likely means he is a poor castor. Unless kept in a strickly white breeding program I doubt it is likely any great colored babies will come of it.

On one of the mini rex club sites(either the mini rex rabbit club or the indiana mini rex rabbit club) has pictures of the site showing proper undercolor. It took me a while to learn what was right and what was wrong. I thought if it looked good on top it was good but soon learned there is a lot more to color than first glance.

Dilute is... well... a diluted color. Blue is diluted black, opal diluted castor, lynx diluted chocolate agouti and so on. Of the two rabbits you plan to breed one needs to either be or carry dilute and the other to just carry it if you hope for both black and opal from one litter. Not only do you need dilute you need the agouti gene to get opal which is a no go to get black.

Sorry, I expect all this genetic mumbo-jumbo is ready to make you explode. I remember how it was when my friend April started shoving it into me, it made me think "Man, either I am stupid or I am stupid". Two years later and I am decent at it now


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## TinysMom (Nov 29, 2008)

Back a couple of years ago - there was a BIG discussion on the lionhead list I'm on about breeding brokens to REWs. I remember it - because I was involved in it and because it developed into a big ugly fight sorta thing. By the end of the discussion - when tempers had cooled down a lot - a lot of interesting information came out of the discussion and the person who was so committed to breeding her broken to a REW (not me) changed her mind.

So here are the various points that you need to consider...


Is the REW a better type than another rabbit you could use? (If so - then maybe it is worth it)
Are you trying to breed for show bunnies - or pet bunnies? If show bunnies - are you hoping to sell to breeders - or to pet owners? This is an important part of the decision making.
Here's why.

Many breeders do not want to work with brokens and they deliberately try to stay away from that. I mean - let's face it - you can tell by looking at a rabbit if it carries the broken gene. 

BUT....with a REW - if one of the parents is a broken...that baby could be a broken - but the REW genes are covering it up. Frequently the REW gene is talked about as if it is a couch cover...it covers up what is underneath it...but the genetics for what is underneath are still there. That is why - lionhead breeders will frequently say "I have an agouti REW" to warn folks that what is under the REW is agouti (which is dominant and you don't want in your shadeds and self families). 

So if you do the breeding and get REW babies - then you will need to make sure that you let everyone know that there is a possibility that the baby is a broken but it just doesn't show. That may cut out some of your potential sales (or it may increase others - from people like me who LOVE brokens).

Something else to consider is....if your broken does not carry the REW gene...then you won't get REWs and this is all a mute point.

One thing you haven't shared that would help in the discussion...is what colors are the parents and grandparents of the REW? Can you look at the pedigree and let us know that?

That might help too.

I hope I haven't discouraged you - its just something you might want to think about. (Also - in lionheads, I often find that the REWs have a different fur texture...many lionhead breeders have talked about this before - not sure about the breed of your rabbit though if it is the same way).


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## TinysMom (Nov 29, 2008)

Emily - you might want to read this page:

http://www.threelittleladiesrabbitry.com/colorgenes.php

There are lots of pages there too - here is a link to the index:

http://www.threelittleladiesrabbitry.com/rabbitcolorgeneticsindex.php

There are five basic genes you'll see people talking about when they talk about rabbit colors - A, B, C, D & E.

The easiest ones for me are A, B and D.

A - What family is it in? Agouti? Tan? Self?

B - Is it black - or chocolate? B is black and b is chocolate.

D - Is it dilute or not? The dilute of black - is blue and the dilute of chocolate is lilac. In order for a rabbit to be dilute - it must carry two dilute genes - one from each parent.

The others - which deal with the shading and the extension of color ....are harder and its better to have someone else explain them or read them elsewhere - like on the website I gave.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Nov 29, 2008)

Ahh I understand now, Bunnybunbunb. So, basically, REW (in my case) is a dilute of castor? Being that Ray is from a blue doe and a chin buck? 

Lol. I am actually getting better at all the genetic stuff. It's interesting and confusing both at the same time. I didn't know there was so much work put into the colouring for when breeding rabbits, but I'm glad that I'm able to learn and so then I wont get unwanted colours. 

TinysMom, thanks for the links!  I will look at them when Iget home, as I'm on a dial-up computer right now and it takes forever to load things. 

So, no one asked my other question though. 

Would it be ok to breed a Broken Black and/or Broken Opal to a Chinchilla buck? 

Emily


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Nov 29, 2008)

*TinysMom wrote: *


> Something else to consider is....if your broken does not carry the REW gene...then you won't get REWs and this is all a mute point.
> 
> One thing you haven't shared that would help in the discussion...is what colors are the parents and grandparents of the REW? Can you look at the pedigree and let us know that?
> 
> ...



I will tell you what the colours of the parents & G-parents of the REW's are when I get home. I'm out of state  I do know that mostly in Ray's lines, his parents & grandparents are chinchilla, blues, blacks, and broken chinchilla. 

In Sage's, she has oranges, tri's, and some other colours, but I can't remember them. 

Nope, of course you haven't discouraged me.  I need to know this so I can breed correct colours to correct colours, and therefore have good show-quality rabbits. 

I think your right about REW's having different fur texture; My REW's fur seems more dense, still velvety, but much more dense than the doe and buck I have that aren't REWs.


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## bunnybunbunb (Nov 29, 2008)

I would not advice either breeding if you want proper color. I have only have one chin mini rex so I do not know how breeding back to chin would mess with the rings but I know chin to opal would probably mess the rings all up specially because I think all you will get is castors.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Nov 29, 2008)

*bunnybunbunb wrote: *


> I would not advice either breeding if you want proper color. I have only have one chin mini rex so I do not know how breeding back to chin would mess with the rings but I know chin to opal would probably mess the rings all up specially because I think all you will get is castors.



Well, I wouldn't mind having castors, but I could just go out and get a pair of castors to breed. 

I was just asking by the way. I dont even have a broken black or broken opal doe.

Emily


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Nov 29, 2008)

What can I expect from a REW to REW breeding, then? 

My REW doe sired by my REW buck is due on the 10th of Dec. 

I was told they would have all REWs and I'm pretty sure that's right. 

Emily


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## RAL Rabbitry (Nov 29, 2008)

REW to REW will give you REWs. 

One of my best producing bucks is an REW and I breed him to blacks& broken blacks. He is a genetic broken black and throws good color with no scattered white hairs. Two of his kids are BIS winners and 5 of them have granded. I think the myth that REWs throw scattered white hairs is not true unless the genetics for the line throw them whether they are blacks or brokens or REWs.

Roger


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## RAL Rabbitry (Nov 29, 2008)

*"If you want to breed for blacks and opals you need an agouti carrying self that is or carries dilute and aself that is or carries dilute. If both parents are dilute it will not work. Now this being said with this breeding you have possibilities of black(expect dull color - white hairs), castor(expect dull, grey, "smutty" and/or bad under color - white hairs), blue(poor top/under color) and opal(expect poor under color)."*



I forgot, first of all self can't carry agouti. If you want to breed opals,breed an opal to an opal, or a castor that carriesdilute to an opal or a self that carries dilute. And why would breeding two dilutes together not work? As far as I know breeders that work on opals breed opal to apal, both dilutes. If they carry self then they could throw blacks and blues as well.

I agree that a castor out of these crosses will probably not have the best color but I don't agree that a black will have dull color or scattered white hairs. My first nice mini-rex buck's complete pedigree was castors. He is a beautiful black and throws excellent color with many, many grand champion kids, grandkids and greatgrandkids. I also use his offsping in my otter program. A variety that is known for scattered white hairs and they do not. His grandaughter was BOV otter at convention this year. As far as undercolor that all depends on the genes not the fact that a parent was a self. 

Roger


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## bunnybunbunb (Nov 30, 2008)

You took what I said wrong. I know self can not carry agouti however agouti can carry self. If she wants both black and opal from a single litter she will need for *example* sire- diluted agouti carrying self dam- self carrying dilute.

You all can breed how you please, I have no right to say other wise, but you have to be careful on the colors you choose to mix. Blacks, opals, castors and blues are the main colors in mini rex people who breed them for show say to never cross to another color.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 1, 2008)

*bunnybunbunb wrote: *


> You took what I said wrong. I know self can not carry agouti however agouti can carry self. If she wants both black and opal from a single litter she will need for *example* sire- diluted agouti carrying self dam- self carrying dilute.
> 
> You all can breed how you please, I have no right to say other wise, but you have to be careful on the colors you choose to mix. Blacks, opals, castors and blues are the main colors in mini rex people who breed them for show say to never cross to another color.



I bred a blue to a chin...maybe that's why I got REW, but obviously it just means either that buck or doe carries the dilute for Castor. Must be my doe.

My buck throws lots of broken chins when bred with broken castor does  

Emily


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## bunnybunbunb (Dec 1, 2008)

*BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote: *


> *bunnybunbunb wrote: *
> 
> 
> > You took what I said wrong. I know self can not carry agouti however agouti can carry self. If she wants both black and opal from a single litter she will need for *example* sire- diluted agouti carrying self dam- self carrying dilute.
> ...


I do not understand "dilute for castor"? Castor is a non-diluted color. You got white because both parrents odviously carries the REW gene and it just so happen the only baby got hit with it from both parents. REW is a recessive color, a rabbit needs two small c to be white/REW.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 1, 2008)

*bunnybunbunb wrote: *


> *BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *bunnybunbunb wrote: *
> ...



You mentioned in an above post of yours that REW is the dilute for castor right here > *"If my guess is correct your white buck(the baby from the broken blue doe and chin buck?) is castor which most likely means he is a poor castor. Unless kept in a strickly white breeding program I doubt it is likely any great colored babies will come of it.".....
*

And no, "white" isn't what it's called in Mini Rex, it's BEW or REW. Do you breed Mini Rex?


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## TinysMom (Dec 2, 2008)

*BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote:*


> I bred a blue to a chin...maybe that's why I got REW, but obviously it just means either that buck or doe carries the dilute for Castor. Must be my doe.
> 
> My buck throws lots of broken chins when bred with broken castor does
> 
> Emily


Emily - I'm not trying to be argumentative here - but I'm not following your logic of how getting a REW means that someone carries the dilute gene?

First of all - REW isn't a dilute for castor (that I know of - I don't know minirex colors). REW is carried on the "c" gene and the dilutes are carried on the "d" gene.

Secondly - in order to get a baby that is a dilute - both parents must either be dilute - or carry dilute - not just one of them. The baby needs TWO dilute genes to show that he/she is a dilute.

I feel like I made that as clear as mud...sorry!


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## TinysMom (Dec 2, 2008)

*BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote: *


> What can I expect from a REW to REW breeding, then?



Cute babies...:biggrin2:

Sorry - couldn't resist!


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 2, 2008)

*TinysMom wrote: *


> *BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote:*
> 
> 
> > I bred a blue to a chin...maybe that's why I got REW, but obviously it just means either that buck or doe carries the dilute for Castor. Must be my doe.
> ...



Dont worry not argrumentative at all. 

Just I got mixed up I guess with what Bunnybunbunb said.....

Emily


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## TinysMom (Dec 2, 2008)

I understand getting mixed up.

Trying to figure out non-lionhead colors - or colors in areas other than the US can make me do this....:banghead for LONG periods of time!


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## Flashy (Dec 2, 2008)

Polly explained to me that that a REW is white a coloured rabbit wearing a white cloak, so it will have a colour that it should have been (in this instance bunbun said a castor) but the genetics meant it ended up with the white cloak instead of the castor it should. I think that's what bunbun was getting at, and I'm sure Polly's explanation was better than mine, but that was the general gist, lol.


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## bunnybunbunb (Dec 2, 2008)

It is called white in Mini Rex. Maybe not where you live but I have been to Mini Rex Nationals and know what most call it, have you? I have researched and owned Mini Rex for almost 10 years. Some people say REW but it is normally called white in Mini Rex, just like it is castor not chestnut.

As for the REW genes you did take wrong what I said. As Flashy explained the cc is a masking color, not the color it self. If you take the cc away you have the actual color the rabbit is.


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## Flashy (Dec 2, 2008)

I'm glad I got your meaning bunbunbunb, I would have looked a bit stupid if I too had misunderstood it and explained it wrong to Emily, lol. Your explanation makes perfect sense to me, and it will be stored for later regurgitation, lol.


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