# (RIP) Pasteurella?? (molar spurs)



## MILU (Mar 18, 2010)

Hi everybody, here I am again..
I guess some of you may remember me and my bunny's case. He's a 5-yar old male rabbit.

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.phpid=53715&forum_id=16&highlight=emergency?

Once again, for those who didn't follow my previous trend, I'm in Brazil and our vets aren't the best. They're actually bad and even kill animals who could have been saved. 

In the end, like I first heard from this website's great contributors, my bunny had teeth problems (spurs) and had 4 teeth filed. Came back home and could eat again.

But now I suspect he may have pasteurella. He's been weird. Doesn't want to eat what were his favorite fresh leaves (only carrot leaves), wants to eat more pellets (changed food preferences) and a couple bites of fruit. He still plays but has gotten more lethargic.

The weird thing (which I thought was/ is (?) a tooth problem recurrence) is that he makes some weird noises. Nothing I've ever heard. 

Besides what seems to be noise coming from his throat area, he also makes different noises coming from inside other areas of his body. His breathing has no whistling sounds (so I guess it's not yet pneumonia). A little eye discharge is present, and he has nose discharge (in that lip crack between his nose and mouth). I thought that was drooling.. but no...

Today - I've just noticed - he's sneezing, not like he has before, but heavily and more often. When I approached him some hours ago, he sneezed with a noise like mucus inside him. That was the 1st time I've heard this sort of noise. The other noises he makes are weird, but not like mucus. I can't even define. It's weird. Some are like a honk, some like a small dog's cry (but fast like a honk) some like squeezing a rubber ducky. I know these aren't the best definitions ever, but I can't define them better - if at all. I hear these noises randomly, but I noticed them somewhat commonly when he changes position, eats or when I 

I brought my bunny to my room with me and I noticed some thick white stuff in my arm, that came from his nose. I started cleaning his nose and there's more and more. He's still sneezing - not heavily anymore, but often. 

Another curious thing is that he keeps "chewing" all the time. Technically, chewing nothing. (so I thought it could be a tooth problem again). 

What can I give to save him? 
I'll surely take him to vets again tomorrow, but if you could give me instructions and opinions, I surely trust you more. Last time YOU guys saved my bunny. Our vets didn't even see he had spurs. They only saw after I told them YOU said so. 

* hmm .. I've been bringing my bunny into my room to keep him warmer. I thought of keeping him here until he's ok. I closed the windows and the door. Can I catch this bacteria? Can this be harmful to me? People tell me not to bring my bunny here.. but I want to stay with him...

Sorry for disturbing you again but I prefer to seek for the BEST help for my bunny, and YOU are the best. Thank you.

:bunnyheart


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## tonyshuman (Mar 18, 2010)

Well, unless you are immune-compromised, there's very little you can catch from your bunny, so don't worry about getting sick from him.

I think he may have an upper respiratory infection because the snot is not clear. However, tooth issues can still cause all the symptoms you're describing, although they usually show up with clear mucus.

The link isn't working, could you please fix it? I don't remember what drugs are available and what diagnostics you've had done. Head x-rays would be wonderful to see the tooth roots.


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## MILU (Mar 19, 2010)

Thanks, I'm happy to know I can keep my bunny here with me. 

There's a x-ray on my previous post, it was taken in January.

Previous post - click here: http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=53715&forum_id=16&highlight=emergency?

I can't edit the previous post yet (it says I can only edit it after 2 hours.) I'm not very good with these things, hope it works now!

Anyway, my bunny has had 4 teeth filed in January. No medicine except for right after the procedure. In the previous topic Randy suggested antibiotics for root abscess, but then another vet (from Canada, someone from here indicated me to him, who saw x-rays online) said he didn't see any abscess - and as it was really hard to find a vet here who could give my bunny antibiotics, so I was glad to hear there was no abscess.. Now I feel more lumps under my bunny's chin. I'm not sure if that would be abscesses or pasteurella as I read in Google (or if it's both).

I'm worried 'cause about this thick white mucus and again my bunny sneezed heavy and noisily. And all the noises from inside his body are weird too. They're not bloating noises, they're very different.


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## MILU (Mar 19, 2010)

Oops I can only edit posts in WITHIN 2 hs...


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## Maureen Las (Mar 19, 2010)

This sounds like a really bad infection which may or may not be caused by a reoccurence of the dental issues or something else; this bun needs antibiotics right away and probably also get another dental check , dental, head and chestx-rays. A culture of the exudate should be done to narrow down the effective antibiotics butin the meantime the medication that Randy mentioned in your first threadcould be started. 

I know that your vet said that he had azithromycin. Possibly you can ask the vet to start this ASAP. The other drug would be injectable penicillin ( or bicillin ) whch is mixed with lactated ringer solution so that it can be injected easier and also to prevent the formarton of sterile abscesses. These injection are given every other day under the skin.(SQ)
I have a rabbit who is on bicillin as a maintenance drug andI give these injections all the time and can assure you that injectable bicillin will not hurt a rabbit whatsoever whereas oral penicillin will.

I will give you the printout describing the effectiveness of bicillin for abscesses (which it sounds like your rabbit also has) ; bicillin is a broad spectrum antibiotic so is good for many infections. 

http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~jwmoore/bicillin/bicillin.htm


http://www.medirabbit.com/Safe_medication/Antibiotics/Safe_antibiotics.htm

Azithromycin is dosed 30-50 mg /kg and is given orally. it sometimes causes a reduction in appetite but oftentimes the owner can assist the rabbit during this period. 
The bicillin probably can be obtained through farm supply stores. here it is actually marketed for cattle under names like Duo-pen Dura -pen , Twin _pen . This drug must be refrigerated 
Bottom line is that it contains 150,000 u procaine pencillin G and 150,000 u benzathine penicllin Gwith a total of 300,000 u per ml. The specific dosage for rabbits is contained in the medi-rabbit chart of safe antibiotics. 

it would be fine to start the azithromycin while you are exploring the bicillin or trying to get it.


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## Maureen Las (Mar 19, 2010)

Twin pen 

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=30e076c2-7b6a-11d5-a192-00b0d0204ae5

Dura-pen

http://www.barnyardhealth.com/penbp48in.html

Duo pen 

http://www.drugs.com/vet/duo-pen.html

it is not the trade name that counts but the ingredients. you probably have this drug in brazil.


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## MILU (Mar 19, 2010)

THANK YOU!!!


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## MILU (Mar 19, 2010)

About the azithromycin, can I use the same used for humans? I'm not sure if vet was talking about this kind. I know we have it for humans. Is it liquid or solid? (I've just seen ous is like 500 mg - I'd have to crack the pill, I suppose.. but we may have the one for animals)..

What is the "lactated ringer solution"? I've never heard of it. Also the bicillin should be mixed with it or only penicillin?


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## Maureen Las (Mar 19, 2010)

Bicillin is 2 kinds of penicillin and is in one bottle ;it is the effect of the 2 drugs ( one short acting and 1 longer acting working together) that is effective 

lactated ringers is an electrolyte solution like the kinds of bags of solution hung for and administered to sick people who are dehydrated and in shock etc. 
The doctor will know and have lactated ringers solution at his office and can give you a bag. you can use a sterile needle to withdraw a small amount to mix with the penicllin . You only need to mix a few ccs of it with the penicillin in a syringe.

You could also use sterile water for injection which comes in 30 ml bottles. the vet may also have these at this office. 

Azithromycin (human) is the same used on animals . In the US it comes in a liquid cherry form which is fairly easy to give to a rabbit (although expensive)

It is possible that if that the doctor can call a compounding pharmacy that the azithromycin 500 mg tabs can be compounded into a flavored liquid medication for your rabbit. 

It may be possible for you to crush tablets and mix up each dose but way more difficult and you would need to get a flavoring for it ( sugar free syrup used for flavoring coffee?)vets here usually have liquid used for flavoring but i am not sure if it is availabe there. 

Iwill be at the shelter most of today so others will assist you ; many people on this forum have given both types of this drug . 
The vet needs to weigh the rabbit to calculate the dosage of azithromycin which is somewhere between 30-50 mg per kg. A kg is about 2.2 lbs. 
The trade name here for azithromycin is Zithromax ; Zithromax comes in a flavored cherry form for kids and can be obtained by prescription from a pharmacy. 
Good Luck


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## MILU (Mar 19, 2010)

I went to a compound pharmacy and will have the azithromycin prepared for my rabbit. 
However, the pharmacist asked me to tell him for how many days it shall be administered. I already know it's given orally once a day = TKS, Angieluv!

My rabbit weight is about 2.5 kilos (or a little less now) so the pharmacist said that, if the appropriate amount is 30-50 mg/Kg, he'll make it 70mg - do you agree with this? 

He also asked if I want it liquid or solid, and he'll add flavor  (is there any rabbits like most? hehe)

As long as I have these questions answered I'll go back there and have it prepared for my bun.

Thanks again.


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## MILU (Mar 19, 2010)

*** Nobody seems to know what Bicllin is, as well as Twin Pen (and all other "pens"). I'll keep on searching though, and if I can't find it perhaps I could have it prepared too.. at least I hope so.


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## MILU (Mar 19, 2010)

* I asked about flavor 'cause my bun doesn't like the cherry flavor in simethicone. :embarrassed:
But that surely isn't as important as the rest. 
Thanks a lot for all your help. I wish I could meet you in person!


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## tonyshuman (Mar 19, 2010)

Bunnies often like banana flavoring. I haven't given my guys compounded medicine before, but I think banana, strawberry, grape, even orange would be enjoyed. Last night I got attacked by my two while eating a grapefruit! Imagine that! I would have thought they wouldn't be interested in it. Just go by whatever fruit your bunny likes best.

70 mg sounds a bit low for a dose. It's usually best to dose at the higher end for zithromax, unless your bunny gets a GI upset from it. I would think 100 mg for a dose would be a good choice for a 2.5 kilo bunny.

A liquid would be easiest.

Angieluv answered your question about lactated ringer's already, but I wanted to add that there are other things you can dilute the bicillin with, like sterile saline for injection. They're all products you can only find at a pharmacy, doctor, or some stores that cater to people who farm livestock and routinely administer drugs on their own. I'll see if I can do a bit more hunting for some bicillin in Brazil online.

It looks to me like there is an abscess on the jaw there, but again, I need to look at it more closely (when I get more time today at work  ). This is a really useful article about the connection between upper respiratory problems and tooth problems:
http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/sneezing.html


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## tonyshuman (Mar 19, 2010)

From what I've found, it seems that penicillin G is found in two forms in Brazil: penicillin G procaine, and penicillin G potasssium. I can't find the penicillin G benzathine. Bicillin (and all those other drugs) is a 1:1 mixture of penicillin G benzathine and penicillin G procaine. This mixture is good because it contains a fast-acting penicillin G form, and a slow-acting form of penicillin G. Therefore you get a large initial "burst" dose of the drug, and a longer sustained release of a lower concentration. You might want to ask your vet if he knows if penicillin G benzathine is available in Brazil, and/or where to get it. You can mix the two forms of penicillin together if you can find each separately.

I found this, with lots of radiographs of bunny teeth. 
http://animaldentalcenterswisconsin.evetsites.net/site/view/112370_RabbitRodentDentalCare.pml

I am not an expert at all, but I'll point out on your x-rays you posted in the last topic what I think might be issues, based on what I've read.


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## tonyshuman (Mar 19, 2010)

Well for some reason photobucket isn't working for me.







That's your pic. I circled some areas on it in paint but can't post the edited pic. I am concerned about a few things.
1) the bottom molar roots on all molars except the one farthest back seem to be penetrating pretty deeply into the jaw bone.
2) all of the bottom molars have clearish (black) areas around their bases, which look like pockets of infection to my totally untrained eye.
3) The top molar roots look long to me too, mostly because they aren't all the same length.

edit: wanted to mention that I know that the teeth have been trimmed on the exposed part, so the circled areas where the tips of the molars are overgrown shouldn't be an issue anymore.


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## MILU (Mar 19, 2010)

Well, I got the azithromycin - in the end they sold me he children's version instead of compounded. 
We don't have grapefruit here (I've never seen it at least) or I'd buy it for my bun! How cute to think of your bunnies attacking you. haha

Thanks for the dosage suggestion on azithrmycin. How many days should I give it to my bunny? 3 days, 5 days? 

A vet also told me to solve acetylcysteine in saline solution and make inhalation 2x a day. Do you think that's a good thing?

No Biciclin found yet. 

Randy saw an abscess there too, and in january I tried to find someone to give my bun the combo and no vets wanted to do it. I hope I'm luckier this time.


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## MILU (Mar 19, 2010)

I've just seen your comments on molars. What do you suggest? Still bicillin?


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## tonyshuman (Mar 19, 2010)

Well, bicillin plus zithromax would be the best. Zithromax may be able to do it on its own, but it also may not. You can try the azithromycin for a week and see if there's improvement, and if not, try to add a second antibiotic like bicillin. He'll need at least 14 days, probably more, of any treatment, to make sure the abscess is totally gone and the bacteria are all killed. They have to have the drugs for a few days after the abscess appears to have totally disappeared, to make sure all the bacteria are gone.

Other options are Convenia, maybe amoxicillin? You could probably do just penicillin G procaine, since they have that there, but the dosing might be different. Since the zithromyacin is an oral drug, you'd want to go with an injectible as the second drug, just to preserve the GI flora.

http://www.medirabbit.com/Safe_medication/Antibiotics/Safe_antibiotics.htm


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## tonyshuman (Mar 19, 2010)

Penicillin G procaine forms a depot, where the drug dissolves into the body over time. Penicillin G benzathine appears to be longer acting. Maybe a course of Penicillin G procaine every day, instead of bicillin every other day, would be sufficient?


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## MILU (Mar 19, 2010)

You guys are spectacular! THANKS!

I'm starting with Azithromycin tonight and will give it for 7 days. Is it cool to give him acidophilus to help the GI flora?

Is it ok if I give only Azithromycin for some days (without the injectable penicillin at the same time)? I don't know how long it will take until I can find the other stuff + a vet who's willing to simply give the injections! I guess if I can't find anyone, and I find the antibiotic, I'll try to administer it myself. Gonna build the guts to do it! 

I know we have Amoxicillin (at least the human form).

My pharmacist is willing to help and asked if Benzetacil would help. I guess it's benzyl penicillin benzatine (600 000 IU BENZETACIL). Is it one of the kinds of penicillin on Twin Pen? Could I try to get both kinds and mix them if I don't find the real thing?


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## MILU (Mar 19, 2010)

Ah, one more detail: his urine has been dark, brown, for like a week.


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## tonyshuman (Mar 19, 2010)

Yes, benzyl penicillin benzathine is the same thing as penicillin G benzathine!! If you combine that with penicillin G procaine, you'll have bicillin. They need to have the same number of units between the two drugs, and the dose should be 75,000 units every other day. You'll need to dilute it with the lactated ringer's or a sterile saline for injection.

http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~jwmoore/bicillin/bicillin.htm

Finally found it!!


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## tonyshuman (Mar 19, 2010)

Dark brown, or orange? Brown could be a sign of kidney problems or dehydration.


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## MILU (Mar 19, 2010)

Anything for chest painful pressure in humans? That's how I've felt the whole day today!


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## Maureen Las (Mar 19, 2010)

Sorry that you are feeling bad yourself but rabbits's being sick is really a stressful siutation. 

I know nothing about acetylcysteine for use in rabbits. It is also called Mucomist . I can't advise you as I know nothing of it's use in rabbits but will try to find out more. until you get an affirmativeI would not use it. 

Claire is right that the 70 mg a day of azithromycin is too low and the 100 mg is right in the medium range for a 2.5 kg rabbits and would be better.5 days is too short a course of the drug and at least several weeks is better. 
I am concerned about the dark urine... is there anyway that your vet could show you how to administer subqutaneous fluids for your rabbit.I would guess that he is probably dehydrated and may have other issues also but not getting enough fluids is going to have very negative effects on overall health. 
If you can syringe him an electrolyte drink for children without problems you could also do that.I am concerned that because of the involvement of the chest that you may have difficulty syringing and that he may have issues swallowing ; you need to use your own judgement and evaluate him. if he likes the elctrolyte drink you may be able to have him drink out of the syringe (one of my bunnies does this) or even flavor his water bowl with a small amount of apple juice or an electrolytedrinkto get him drinking

He also needs to have labwork to check how his organs are functioning ; the dark urine could be reflective of possible liver , kidney or other organ dysfunction 


benzetacil is benzathine penicillin.I believe that our administrator , sas, Pipp uses benzathine pencillin alone without the procaine.I would be somewhat concerned re. mixing the procaine with the benzathine unless the people doing this were very sure of what they were doing 

Iam also not sure of dosing benzathine alone but am hoping that Pipp will help us out when she gets on-line. 

Randy often comes on the forum on weekends and we ill hope that he does this weekend.; it is the beginning of heavy wildlife season so I am not sure we will see him here . 
We are trying to help you , however , your rabbit sounds severely ill so will all just try to do our best and hope that he can get though this. :hug:


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## MILU (Mar 19, 2010)

Well, actually, like the last time, his symptoms aren't good, but he's a fighter. He still plays, eats and drinks water. Should I add some vitamin in it? 

I don't think syringing drinks would be a problem at all. He actually feels hungry and eats. Perhaps I should even syringe more water than what he drinks daily. If I can't find an electrolyte drink for children now, can I give him adult ones? Should I give lots daily?

Thanks for the input on mixing procaine and benzatine, People here do NOT know what they're doing and that's why I get SO stressed.

I won't give my bun acetylcysteine then. I respect your opinion and will do what you say.


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## MILU (Mar 19, 2010)




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## MILU (Mar 19, 2010)

And about azithromicin again, should I give it for about 14 days?


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## MILU (Mar 19, 2010)

Ah, should I administer it everyday at the same time?


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## Maureen Las (Mar 19, 2010)

*hotmaildeal wrote: *


> Well, actually, like the last time, his symptoms aren't good, but he's a fighter. He still plays, eats and drinks water. Should I add some vitamin in it?
> 
> I don't think syringing drinks would be a problem at all. He actually feels hungry and eats. Perhaps I should even syringe more water than what he drinks daily. If I can't find an electrolyte drink for children now, can I give him adult ones? Should I give lots daily?
> 
> ...




Sports drink for adults are more potent and sugary than the electrolyte drink for children. Some of the sports drink for adults would be OK but You should be able to findchildrens' electrolyte drink over there. it is called pedialyte here and I am sure they have it over there; it is used for kids who are vomiting / diarrhea to replace the electrolytes lost. 

you can find it in the infant area of any pharmacy or dept store. Porbably never noticed it before. 

Iam no expert on the acetylcysteine for rabbits :?

Azithromycin should be given for at least 14 days ( maybe longer) and you can give it at approx the same time every day. 
Can you get probiotics over there.?
I will give you an example of what I mean


http://www.jefferspet.com/ssc/product.asp?cid=0&pf_id=4157

it is good to administer a probiotic when administering an antibiotic which could dis rupt normal gut microorganisms

This type of probiotic is sold in pets store for small mammals and also dogs and cats. If you have any farm stores there it is always sold for large animals like horses and young farm animals who are being weaned off milk. Many times it comes in a tube and small amounts can be fed to a rabbit daily . 

http://www.probios.com/


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## tonyshuman (Mar 19, 2010)

Acetylcysteine is used to make mucus less thick. It is also naturally occurring in the body and is used by the liver to metabolize things so that they can be excreted in the urine. However, I think its benefits have been highly exaggerated in functions other than mucus reduction. If he's having trouble breathing due to lots of mucus, it's probably fine. I don't think it will hurt him, however you never can be too sure. From what I've read, I would not apply it to the eye.

It is used when bunnies are in extreme respiratory distress and have so much mucus they can't breathe.
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Rabbits-703/2009/12/Bunny-trouble-breathing-2.htm


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## MILU (Mar 20, 2010)

His urine is brownish.He has done it this color before, but I guess not too many times in a row, or maybe I was the one who's never paid attention to it before. He also made a whitish one today.

We don't have probiotics for pets. Hardly I found it for humans. What we have in powder has Lactobacillus Casei + bifidobacterium breve (and contains lactosis as I remember). My bunny took it and was ok, but he hadn't taken antibiotics, only anesthesia.

There's also a drink version (with milk) with acidophilus. This is easy to get.
Is there any food to cut the horrible bitter taste of the medicine? My tongue feels all cut and hurts, and I've tried as much as the size of this "O"!!!!! I wonder if my bun will stand this for 14 days!! 
:tears2:

A very curious thing is the noise from inside him. He's switched positions and it came from like, the "belly" (?!?) area behind (inside? Aw my English!) his leg. It's like a honk from inside him. Sometimes it also sounds like coming from the chest, or throat. It's not the sound of bloating, which I know well. Weird!!!!! That's actually what made me worried at first, as I've never heard such a thing!


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## MILU (Mar 20, 2010)

Claire

No, my bun is not in such distress. He can breathe. No acetylcysteine. Good suggestion the bathroom steam on the link!


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## Maureen Las (Mar 20, 2010)

The powder with lactobacillus casei is fine to give him

The sound is understandable if it was from his chest and I do believe that it is a sound that seems to be coming from different areas of his body but I don't know what it is ....

I had heard one of my rabbits make a sound when she had a respiratory /tracheal infection. It sounded like a man clearing his throat and it seemed impossible that that big sound was coming from my little bunny. 
keep us updated


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## MILU (Mar 20, 2010)

I heard that noise you're talking about twice or so. That sure was respiratory - and loud. But the other noise is weird, and it comes with some sort of spasm or "hiccup" (?), like, my bunny wants to lay down on his side and can't, that "noise thing" with a spasm makes him jump back on his feet again. Really weird. Comes mostly (not always) when he switches positions, when he eats, when I carry him or randomly.


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## Pipp (Mar 20, 2010)

I'd be curious re: the procedure the Vets did on his teeth. I often here about rabbits having post-op problems, here's an excerpt from an Vet's article explaining some of it: 

http://www.theveterinarian.com.au/clinicalreview/article500.asp


_from: *Common problems in rabbits and ferrets*

Working with unusual pets brings with it a new set of challenges and opportunities for professional satisfaction.

MARK SIMPSON

Of all the gastroenteric problems we see in rabbits, dental disease is the most common. And while dental problems are occasionally due to congenital (possibly inherited) malocclusion, the vast majority of cases are a result of a progressive syndrome caused by poor diet.

Inappropriate levels of dietary protein, calcium, and vitamin D, coupled with inadequate dental wear are strongly implicated in the aetiology. The syndrome of acquired dental disease is characterised by an alteration in the orientation, then shape, and possibly structure of the teeth and the consequent development of malocclusion. It is my opinion that the altered wear (leading to altered pressure at the tooth roots) and generous supply of protein and calcium in inappropriate diets, permitting ready remodelling of the bones of the jaw, are causative factors in the majority of rabbit dental disease.

As a result of this re-orientation, sharp spurs can develop on the cheek teeth that penetrate surrounding soft tissues of the cheek or tongue. In particular I find lacerations and ulcerations of the tongue are intensely painful and affected rabbits do not eat or groom effectively.

Though the incisors are most commonly treated dental problem in rabbits, I believe they constitute only a small proportion of problems - most rabbit teeth problems are associated with the cheek teeth. I have seen several rabbits with bilateral, medially directed spurs of the cheek teeth of the lower jaw literally trapping or skewering the tongue in an immobile position.

Rabbits with spurs are often salivating, which gives rise to the lay term slobbers. Gut stasis is, for multiple reasons, a common sequelae. In some cases the appearance of the teeth in the mouth is normal, and the roots are the site of the pathology. In cases where the clinical sign indicate dental problem but oral examination is within normal limits, radiographs of the head, to assess the tooth roots, are indicated.

The tooth roots are significant as they are frequently the site of abscessation, which may be the first clinical sign the owners identify as a problem. These abscesses will lead to severe osteomyelitis, with draining sinuses on the face, and are an absolute disaster. While occasional anecdotal stories of resolution are told, the vast majority of these abscesses require intense and complicated debridement and the use specialised treatments such as antibiotic-impregnated methyl methacrylate pellets or ConsilÃ¢ to have even a hope of remission.

There is a constant risk of recurrence with these abscesses, and anything that can be done to avoid them is preferable to trying to treat them. One of the factors that we associate with these abscesses is the use of nail clippers to effect trimming, predominantly of the incisors. This technique has been associated with longitudinal microfractures of the tooth, which provides an excellent avenue of access for bacteria of the mouth to enter the tooth apices and begin a problem. For this reason we strongly recommend avoiding the use of nail clippers to trim the teeth.

Once there are spurs affecting the mucosa of the oral cavity the only successful treatment is removal of the spurs under general anaesthesia. It must be emphasised however that this is a temporary measure, and that trimming the teeth will need to be repeated once every six to 16 weeks for the rest of the rabbits life.

To anaesthetise these patients I use the protocol developed by Dr Ron Rees-Davies that I call rabbit DTK: DomitorÃ¢ (medetomidine 1mg/mL) at 30ug/kg, TorbugesicÃ¢ (butorphanol 10mg/mL) at 0.10mg/kg, and ketamine (100mg/mL) at 1mg/kg, which gives about 0.10mL DomitorÃ¢, 0.03mL TorbugesicÃ¢ and 0.03mL ketamine for a 3kg rabbit, which I inject intravenously as a single bolus. This usually allows enough anaesthesia for cheek tooth examination and burring.

I then intubate the rabbit and provide supply oxygen, and then I am in a position to provide additional gaseous anaesthesia if the need arises

My experience with local anaesthetic blocks in rabbits has not been as good as those used in cats and dogs. This is not totally surprising, as the sites, especially that for mandibular blocks, are much more difficult to access than in other species. I no longer attempt regional blocks for this purpose in rabbits.

Some specialised equipment is necessary to trim the cheek teeth of rabbits. There are many rabbit mouth gags, and some of these may be viewed at Dr David Clarkeâs web page at http://www.k9gums.com.au/page7.html. I find the concept of two-way action to be critical so that the jaws are opened and then the cheeks are effectively âdilatedâ one side at a time. I therefore have the jaws held open with a standard small animal gag.

I then have an assistant use wooden tongue depressors to expose each part of the cheek teeth. A DremelÃ¢ tool with a long bit is then used to burr all the cheek teeth to about a millimetre above the gum line. I find that if I slide off the tooth I do not damage the mucosa, (nor any expensive gags), but simply the wooden tongue depressor.

There is some controversy about how much to remove from the teeth. Some practitioners remove only the offending spur. It is not my aim to restore normal occlusion. By the time these procedures are required any return to normal occlusion is impossible as there have been irreversible changes to the tooth roots and dental disease will be permanent.

Some reports suggest burring will lead to heat necrosis of the tooth roots but I have seen no evidence in the many cases I deal with to support that contention. *However there is good evidence to suggest that occlusive pressure will drive affected teeth back into their sockets, and this disrupts the normal anatomy of the tooth apex. The gingival attachment and the periosteum are damaged.

Once again, as in the case of microfractures of the incisors, bacteria of the oral cavity can reach the tooth root and surrounding bone.

By burring to within a millimetre of the gingival margin some of this occlusal pressure is relieved, and the likelihood of tooth root abscesses and associated osteomyelitis decreased.* My clinical impression has been that rabbits that have their teeth shortened this way also return to eating more quickly, possibly because the root elongation has been painful.

Gastrointestinal hypomotility (also know variously as gut stasis, ileus, trichobezoars, or hairballs) is a secondary condition. It occurs frequently in rabbits in response to pain or stress and it is critical to identify and treat the underlying cause._


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## Pipp (Mar 20, 2010)

ETA: We don't have Benzetacil here, sorry. My Vet prescribes Depocillin, which is Procaine Penicillin G. 

To be exact - "Depocillin is a sterile aqueous suspension for injection, containing per mL, procaine penicillin G (BP) 300,000 IU (300 mg) and, as preservative, methylparahydroxybenzoate 1.1 mg."

The dosage for my smaller (4lb) but critically ill rabbit was .5 ml. 

This stuff is not to be used casually, ditto with all antibiotics, particularly the injected ones. I've come to the conclusion that this ultimately killed Radar. The stuff was pretty thick, I had needles explode more than once and at one point it went through the 'tent' to the other side and was injected onto the surface. I believe that during one of these incidents (or both) he licked the area, developed gastric ulcers and died. 


sas :clover:


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## MILU (Mar 20, 2010)

Oh my, that's pretty sad!
I couldn't yet find injectable penicillin and still hope azithromycin solves the problem itself. 

Soon my bun will take the 2nd dose and I hope he can stand 12 more days. He's ok, even eats, but his droppings aren't the same (size varies), and I hope his tummy isn't being hurt too bad. Even my tongue got hurt just by trying a tiny, irrelevant wee bit! He seems to have become more active though, which is a good sign. 
He seems not to be comfortable laying down on his side.

*** The pharmacist didn't know well what he sold me. He thought it was packed as liquid but it's a powder to be mixed in the purified water that came in the package. I mixed it all (as I couldn't close the water pack or know how to fraction the powder and water to mix) and kept the closed "bottle" (that came in the package to shake the mix) in the fridge. I don't think it ran bad from last night to tonight, but there's content enough for 6 days and I wonder if I can still use it or if it will run bad. It seems like there's no better option than this sort of mix. If you think it will run bad, I'll throw it away and buy a new one tomorrow, but if you think I can keep it in the fridge for 4 more days, let me know. The thing is: this mix is supposed to be 1 single dose for children.. not supposed to be 6.. but I'm in Brazil....


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## Pipp (Mar 20, 2010)

Storage

When diluted according to the instructions (1.0 mg/mL to 2.0 mg/mL), ZITHROMAX (azithromycin for injection) is stable for 24 hours at or below room temperature (30Â°C or 86Â°F), or for 7 days if stored under refrigeration (5Â°C or 41Â°F).


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## MILU (Mar 20, 2010)

wow, you know everything! Thanks!


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## Pipp (Mar 20, 2010)

For the record, neither rabbits nor humans should have grapefruit when taking various medications, they can interact badly. 


sas :clover:


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## Pipp (Mar 21, 2010)

hotmaildeal wrote:


> wow, you know everything! Thanks!



Nah, I just looked it up. But that info is for the injectable kind, the oral kind is more stable, its supposed to be kept in a cool, dry location (most everywhere but a humid bathroom). But if the pharmacist told you to refrigerate, and it's a powder/sterile solution mix, that seems to be an injectable protocol. Not sure how that works. If you say it tastes bad and it was supposed to be a pediatric version, I sure hope the pharmacist and vet have done this right. 

Also be forewarned that diarrhea will be a more serious symptom than loss of appetite. And at least in humans, symptoms can appear up to a month later, even after the antibiotic is stopped. 

Is that a new x-ray? I honestly don't feel comfortable with inexperienced laypeople attempting to read x-rays. At all. I already sent the old ones to my vet, he did not see an abscess (although he could be wrong, too). That said, as noted in the article I posted, the surgery could have triggered tooth root issues including infection.

I haven't had the time to go through the posts really closely, not sure who prescribed the drugs, but taking him back to the dental vet would have been the best course of action. (ETA: A follow-up appointment should be at a reduced rate if not free for the exam, be sure to ask). 

Also note that one of the possible reactions to penicillin injections is the rabbit getting hyper, not sure if the same holds true for Zithromax. Hopefully Randy will see this and comment. 


sas :clover:


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## tonyshuman (Mar 21, 2010)

*Pipp wrote: *


> For the record, neither rabbits nor humans should have grapefruit when taking various medications, they can interact badly.
> 
> 
> sas :clover:



This is true! My dad had to stop eating grapefruit, which he loves, because of his cholesterol medicine!


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## MILU (Mar 21, 2010)

I've never found grapefruit it here, don't worry.

I don't have new x-rays yet. I'm giving azithromycin according to what was posted here. 

The white mucus from bun's nose suggests respiratory infection, and it would get worse if my bun got anesthesia to have a dental check before treated. So I'll give the antibiotics and then have the dental check. :hanging:

My bun isn't sneezing as often as he was yesterday and before, and I don't hear that mucus noise inside him when he sneezes anymore, so I guess zythro is working well. (* yes, it's for oral use despite the gross cherry flavor)

* still the weird noise that comes from inside him persists. Maybe it's from his GI (?) or what else is around the belly behind legs. Does not sound like bloating that I've heard from him in 5 years - hopefully it's a new kind of gas..? 

:hiding:


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## MILU (Mar 21, 2010)

BTW follow-up visits are paid just the same. I suspect that's why my bun never gets ok. Also other pets and lots of people need a 2nd (paid) surgery. 

I know dental probs may recur but my bun eats good varied foods and since RIGHT AFTER the dental procedure he doesn't want to eat his favorite treats or some leaves he liked - a sign that STILL sthing was wrong! Dentist had then said "he'll be ok" but now says "anesthesia again." There go $500 more!


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## tonyshuman (Mar 21, 2010)

If he's gassy, some simethicone is always good.


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## Pipp (Mar 23, 2010)

How's your bunny? 


sas :clover:


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## MILU (Mar 23, 2010)

He's ok. I haven't written more 'cause he seems stable now, and I know you must be busy with other cases too.

My bun still has the weird noises coming from inside him "randomly" but the respiratory symptoms that I was more concerned about (white mucus expelled in big quantities, even as a little puddle on the ground) are all gone since day 2 of zythro (today will be day 5). Of course I owe my bun's life to you again! 
:bunnydance:

He still has the weird "bumps" under his chin though. I'm not sure if they're "natural"..? 
I know he'll need a dental check-up but I'll wait 'til he's done with zythro. He'll need anesthesia and I don't want him too exposed to too many different drugs all at once and he's ok enough to wait, eating, playing as crazy, etc.

He has no diarrhea as zythro side effect yet, although the size of his droppings got smaller. Still he eats even right after having taken zythro and I'm happy about it. Thanks for asking and for sharing your expertise!!
Have a wonderful day!!


:big kiss:


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## tonyshuman (Mar 23, 2010)

I think it's a good idea to wait to have the bumps checked. The azithromycin can only help them to heal, so that's actually good. Glad that his mucus isn't as strange. I don't know what those noises could be, other than a lower respiratory disease, but hopefully the zithromax can clear that up.


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## MILU (Mar 23, 2010)

On day 2 of zithro the respiratory issue wasn't there anymore, as a miracle! There's been no more mucus at all! 

* I don't think the "weird noise" is related to respiratory issues, as it comes also from areas other than chest. 

I wonder if my bun has a "disguised" dental issue that makes him swallow air, causing the noise inside his belly also close to his legs- ?? I'd suppose this noise is different from bloating in the sense it's been swallowed and not formed by the GI -??? ** Just supposing!!** I'm trying to find a reasonable explanation for this!! 

I don't think internal organs would make that noise like a little honk or so, unless they were traveling inside my bun and switching positions.. hehe
This is quite puzzling!!!! The good thing is - it's not causing harm enough to make my bun stop eating, drinking water or playing.

About teeth - when my bun had spurs, his mouth smelled bad for weeks before I noticed the problem and he wouldn't eat anything at all for days and drooled a lot. 

Now his nose/mouth is slightly wet sometimes but almost nothing. Maybe this is normal? 
His mouth doesn't smell at all and he eats well*. 

I could even think there's nothing wrong, but he refuses to eat varied foods, and he gave up some of his previous favorites right after the dental procedure. 
Sometimes he seems to have food trapped somewhere in his mouth and uses his paws trying to move it. I always watch and assist my bun eating as I'm afraid he chokes. 

How I wish my bun didn't have to take anesthesia again...... it took him almost a week to recover...! 
:tears2: :cry1:

And then I'm afraid IF he needs a new procedure, he may acquire problems and root infection because of the procedure (like suggested above) and then will need more antibiotics? Ouch, life isn't fair!!!! TG he's a warrior!!

:duel


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## MILU (Mar 23, 2010)

* he eats well = but only carrot leaves, fruit and certain pellets. Not anything else.


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## tonyshuman (Mar 23, 2010)

Interesting. Maybe he's passing gas? My bunnies purposely make a little honking noise when they're excited too, could that be it?

The smelling bad thing sounds a lot like infection in the mouth. It's good that he doesn't have that now. I do think he's got some tooth issues right now, based on the sometimes wet stuff, the food preference changes, the food trapped thing.

What did they use for anethesia? It shouldn't take that long for him to recover.


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## Pipp (Mar 23, 2010)

We just took a friend's rabbit (BPotter's Twinkles) in for what was supposed to be a tooth trim and Dr. Martinez ended up pulling three of his teeth. :shock: The molars were very long and the roots were also long and had some infection. 

And the little guy was back munching down his dinner in just a couple of days.  

Bad breath is not usual in a rabbit. 

This is sounding like your rabbit either he had root issues to begin with or the procedure aggravated the roots.

Antibiotics are almost always the way to go even on spec when it comes to head issues (and many other things).

Are the lumps going down? I'm not sure what they are, but it is ringing a bell. I have seen something other than your run-of-the-mill oral abscess. Something else presents with bumps like that, but I can't remember what it was. 



sas onder:


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## tonyshuman (Mar 23, 2010)

The only other thing I can think of that causes large bumps on the face is myxi, but that's not present in Brazil, I don't think.


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## MILU (Mar 23, 2010)

Dividing the whole thing in topics:

ANESTHESIA
Anesthesia he took was to be inhaled, I don't know what. I meant 1 week 'cause my bun was unstable for that long, lost balance, etc. No droppings even taking probiotics, although he'd eat.

INTERNAL NOISE
I wish the noise was that cute excited noise they do! I know all of the noises my bunny makes - it's none of them. Nothing he's ever emitted in the last 5 years. It's not intentional. It's like in his GI I think. I often hear it close to his legs after he swallows the liquids I syringe (then he tries to escape from me or stops eating).

TOOTH NOISE- I forgot to mention this one: 

when he chews, there's sometimes a friction noise, like a fork scraping a pan, coming from his teeth... It started right after the dental procedure. This noise makes my flesh creep!!!!!!!!!! (* vets here said it's "normal" - without hearing it! My bun hasn't EVER made this for 5 years and it's not the sound of food or teeth chewing) - Malocclusion?? I'm positive this is why he won't eat certain foods. Some make his teeth make the noise more than others when he chews. 

BUMPS 
I don't think the bumps under his chin are myxi. My bun has no contact with other animals (except for vet visits in January). I live in a building, high floor, we don't have fleas, mites, etc. Stimes I see some tiny spiders but I'm positive they wouldn't bite my bunny, esp. under his chin! And he's not swollen, he's got tiny little bumps, invisible to the eye.

I thought of pasteurella... even 'cause my bun has several other tiny little bumps under his skin in other areas of his body too (has always had, apparently never had problems with them). The most noticeable - if at all - is the chin site (because he's had dental issues and the chin has been more inspected than other areas). They're not visible and almost imperceptible touching.
Vets here could feel the chin bumps with their hands after I told them about, but couldn't tell what they are. Said it's "let's leave this alone". 

They couldn't feel/find the other bumps and I didn't even bother insisting in showing where they are, as they said they don't know what they are and would be poking MY precious bunny in vain....
:stikpoke

Also I thought of dental abscess thinking of what Randy posted, but then had in mind dr. Martinez said no abscess so I got no idea what the bumps are either.
How I wish I could volunteer with you for some months and learn more about rabbits!


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## tonyshuman (Mar 23, 2010)

Thanks for the info.

They may be using one of the older inhaled anesthetics. I would ask them to use isofluorane if they have it. Bunnies seem to react better to it.

I honestly can't tell you what that internal noise is, it's pretty strange. Maybe it's gas in his intestines. Maybe when he's trying to escape the gas moves around in there? :dunno:

The tooth noise might be from pain. They do a tooth grind that sounds similar to what you're describing when they're in pain, different from the clicking noise they make when happy. Maybe somebody with a dental issue bunny has heard them before and can comment.

That's interesting about the bumps. I still think there are probably dental abscesses, and the bumps might be related to that. I am not a vet though, so all you can go by is what the people with the degrees say.


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## MILU (Mar 24, 2010)

Thanks, I'll ask about isofluorane when he has a dental check. 

The tooth noise isn't the pain grind. I know how that sounds, too.. 

This is a high-pitched tooth noise that happens when he chews food, as if the teeth suffered friction by opening and closing the mouth, upper and lower teeth in friction. It's not the noise of the food being chewed either, or normal chewing sounds. It's like teeth scraping each other by chewing. Very unpleasant sound! 

I hope you're right about the chin bumps, if they're abscesses I'll know there's a way to treat them :biggrin2:

About the other noise, I hope you're right too and it's gas. I can't think of anything else, despite every time my bun was bloated the noise was different. I guess he's getting more refined with ageing. :construction

Have a great Wednesday! 

:bunny18


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## MILU (Apr 1, 2010)

Well, tomorrow is (Thank God!!) the 14th - last - day I'll give antibiotics to my bunny. 

It didn't give him diarrhea, although the size of his droppings got MUCH smaller and now, since yesterday, he refuses to eat anything at all. I wonder if the antibiotics messed up his tummy (despite I gave him probiotics). Yesterday I heard lots of the "weird noise" and later I also heard some bloating noises (very different). I think he was in pain for a while, because he was gritting his teeth while laying down. Today I don't hear the noises anymore but bun isn't happy (at least he's not gritting his teeth anymore).

How long do I have to wait from the time he stops the antibiotics to the day he can take anesthesia? I don't want him to have too many drugs mixed messing him up.

Interesting how he always gets sick right during big holidays when nobody is working...... sigh...


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## MILU (Apr 1, 2010)

Just wondering: is there any condition in the lungs that can be "noisy"?

* "noisy" not as a whistling sound when breathing, but a noise that can be heard as coming from inside the chest, being heard even by far


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## tonyshuman (Apr 1, 2010)

I think the decision to use anesthesia is something that has to be a combination of how his lungs and heart sound along with how he looks--something I can't tell you. There aren't any drug interactions between typical antibiotics and typical anesthesia, though.

A sound from inside the chest while breathing could be pneumonia. The bacteria responsible for a lower respiratory infection can be different from the ones causing an upper respiratory infection, I think, which might be why the nasal symptoms have improved but the lungs are making weird noises.


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## MILU (Apr 1, 2010)

I'm not sure if the weird noises come from the lungs. It happens sort of randomly or when my bunny eats, drinks or moves more than when he breathes. I'm trying to find an explanation that makes sense for that. He never made the noises when examined, so it's hard to understand what they are. 

They're not the sort of noises made "on purpose" though, and it seems like they're painful. If he's eating and the noise erupts, he stops eating and hides. If he moves and the noise erupts again, he moves in a different position, etc.
Sorry for talking about this all the time. I know it sounds weird.


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## Pipp (Apr 1, 2010)

This is something only the Vet will be able to figure out. It will take a stethoscope to hear exactly where the noise is coming from. If it is the lungs, I'd get a check x-ray. 

Is he sitting up more than usual? Is his nose pointing up? 


sas :clover:


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## MILU (Apr 2, 2010)

He stays in the position I call "square" more (I don't know what "sit up" is). He stays like this:





(*this is not my bunny)

His nose is not pointing up. He moves his mouth a lot, and "chews nothing" more than before.


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## MILU (Apr 2, 2010)

AND the "great" Brazilian fact of the day is:
My bunny doesn't want to eat any food, but he still eats sunflower seeds if I peel them. I took some from the package (SUPPOSED to be aseptic) and.. there was a BUG inside it. I am ABSOLUTELY MAD. Don't know if this has to do with my bun having gotten sick.
The bug was like this:


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## MILU (Apr 13, 2010)

You're always so right. My bunny had a big dental spur in one of the teeth that was filed in January... :shock2:


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## tonyshuman (Apr 13, 2010)

My bunnies will sit like that picture (duck or chicken pose) and contentedly grind their teeth sometimes...


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## MILU (Apr 18, 2010)

:thanks:

Now, some days after removing his dental spur for the 2nd time, he's eating and doing his bunny activities more normally. His droppings aren't yet too many but have better shape and size for sure. 
:juggle


Still he won't eat all sorts of foods he ate before, but he can eat sunflower seeds without having them peeled. He couldn't do this after the 1st time he had dental spurs filed until now. I just hope I don't have to take him to the dentist every 2 months or so. 

It's funny when I offer him something and he turns his head like we (humans) do to say "no" with a gesture. Does anyone have bunnies that do that, too??
:nosir: :disgust: 

We don't have the same kind of hay you have for bunnies, we have alfafa hay. I give my bunny that alfafa hay and plenty of fresh leaves (like carrot leaves, broccoli leaves, cabbage, endive, etc.), carrots, 2 kinds of pellets, fruits, sunflower seeds...

* I'll post pics of the latest procedure when I have them scanned.


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## tonyshuman (Apr 19, 2010)

My bunnies do that sometimes--it's more of a head flick though.

:headflick:
I wouldn't give much sunflower seeds--they have a lot of protein which can be hard to digest. It must be hard to get his teeth worn down by hay when all you can get it is alfalfa.


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## MILU (Apr 19, 2010)

The dentist said fresh leaves would be the best thing to wear his teeth down, but it seems like it hasn't worked too well.
I heard sunflower seeds aren't good, I don't give too many. The vets here said about 3/ day is ok - do you agree? 

Sunflower seeds are what I use to "test" my bunny. He loves them, if he refuses to eat them, I know right away there's something wrong with him. An example: after having his teeth filed the 1st time he wouldn't eat them unless peeled. The dentist never accepted something wasn't perfect after the 1st procedure, but I know my bun.. and then we had to take him back for a 2nd procedure... hopefully he'll be ok now.


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## tonyshuman (Apr 19, 2010)

I see--I am guilty of using things like yogurt drops and Craisins as treats to "test" them. We call that "the treat test", and it's a good way to tell how they're feeling. 3 a day might be a bit much, in terms of the fat they have, but if he seems to be an ok weight it's probably fine.

It's true that fresh greens have minerals in them that wear the teeth down. Fresh grasses have even more of it, so if you can feed him grass that's safe from outside or grass you grow on your windowsill that might be good. Grass is so easy to grow--I am currently growing wheat and rye grass because my guys love it as a guilt-free treat.


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## jamesedwardwaller (Apr 19, 2010)

*hotmaildeal wrote: *


> The dentist said fresh leaves would be the best thing to wear his teeth down, but it seems like it hasn't worked too well.
> I heard sunflower seeds aren't good, I don't give too many. The vets here said about 3/ day is ok - do you agree?
> 
> Sunflower seeds are what I use to "test" my bunny. He loves them, if he refuses to eat them, I know right away there's something wrong with him. An example: after having his teeth filed the 1st time he wouldn't eat them unless peeled. The dentist never accepted something wasn't perfect after the 1st procedure, but I know my bun.. and then we had to take him back for a 2nd procedure... hopefully he'll be ok now.


hi,brazil-you sound rabbit savy,,but i need to put emphasis on -what is a good rabbit diet.//.first the daily diet needs to be 70% -ie.timothy/orchard grasses-this is a non digestible fiber,necessary to keep the teeth ground down,and the gitract happy.//.quality-lowfat pellets-small amount daily,lots of water,and,with-fruit tree branches/twigs,-ie--from-pear,apple,plum trees,,and maybe a treat generally weeds from the safe list(house of rabbit/adoptarabbit)-.,now you indicate issues requiring antibiotics,perhaps azithromyicin,,and probotics.metacam for pain//.facial radiogragh will tell all,,the white tear drop isnot good--the tear ducts are internal and most likely the eye teeth have grown (due to a lack of chewing)-into the these ducts.//.any tooth spurs,or misalignment and the rabbit will sit huddled(square)-grinding his teeth in pain/agony,,eating will come to a halt and gi stasis will begin.//.must keep the rabbit hydrated,,fed,and treated asap...sincerely james waller--be aware of a disease called myxi-if gathering weeds outside,,dvm should be able to inform you..


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## Pipp (Apr 19, 2010)

I just posted this somewhere else, but it applies here as well. 

I think you have mulberry leaves in your area that are pretty plentiful?

They've done studies where bunnies were fed those instead of alfalfa and they ended up healthier than the alfalfa bunnies.

Sweet potato vines and grape vines are good, and safe tree bark should also help.

Go for lots of shapes and textures. 

And just about any grass is good I think, tho not sure about that, and not sure what you've got in your region. What do the wild rabbits eat? 



sas :bunnydance:


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## jamesedwardwaller (Apr 19, 2010)

*Pipp wrote: *


> I just posted this somewhere else, but it applies here as well.
> 
> I think you have mulberry leaves in your area that are pretty plentiful?
> 
> ...


my cotton tail eats,likes, white russet potato,,and it is on the safe list--however the vines,,leave are of the nightshade family,,,with sweet potato-on the no-no list,..i am suprised the sweet potato vine is,ok.??.,alfalfa--is of the clover family-therefore a digestible fiber,which should only be offered as a treat,,however webster says its a hay--it cannot be both,,grass/hay,,--tomato is good,,but the plant is bad,---on-on-and on,,they say rabbiting is no a perfect science,,but we keep trying,,,sincerely james waller:thumbup:scared::biggrin2:


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## MILU (Apr 20, 2010)

Claire: you made me feel less guilty using the "treat test", heheh 
I didn't know 3 is too much.. but yes, my bun's new name is "skeleton", he's very skinny now. In January, he weighed 2,5 kilos when sick (and already skinny!), and was 2.2 kilos some weeks ago. I wonder if giving him forbidden things like bread would help him gain body mass to help himâ¦ he's pure skin and bones. I keep feeding him the good things now that he's eating alright, though.
Thanks for the grass tip. I'll try to grow it at home. I know nothing about types of grass, but I know we have it different from yours. It sounds like a great idea to grow it at home!


James Waller: Thanks a lot!!! 
The spur has been filed for this 2nd time already, he's eating again. The other issue also disappeared with the antibiotic. 
I don't think myxi is an issue, my bun hardly ever goes out. He lives on the 13th floor of a building, not in a cage, he's free to go where he wants. He doesn't enjoy leaving the apartment, so I don't think much of taking him out for a walk downstairs in the common area of my building. We have no other pets living here.
Thanks for the tips on foods too!!
* I give my bun alfalfa hay but he doesn't like it much. Only sometimes, and he bites it, like, twice. I give mango and guava tree twigs and leaves whenever I find one of those trees in a height I can get them. Not much of the guava, but mango seems to be pretty safe.
:hanging:


Sas: Great suggestions too! Thanks! Yes, we have mulberry trees, I will look for them and get the leaves. Sweet potato and grape vines aren't that easy to find (although sweet potatoes and grapes are)â¦ I tried to give tree bark years ago, but my bun didn't want to eat any of it, so I gave up. 
Wild rabbits? I guess they're eaten more than they eat around here..!? I've never seen any wild rabbit here, anywhere...
:bunnysuit:


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## MILU (Apr 20, 2010)

* How long are rabbits supposed to be "spur-free" after having them filed? 

Yesterday I started hearing tooth-friction noise when my bun eats (a BAD noise, not the normal noise they make while chewing, it's more like the sound of a fork scratching a pan, or so). :nerves1

Good thing is I haven't heard the "weird noise" from inside my bun for about 2 days. 
:biggrin2:

But I suspect his dentist isn't doing that greatness of a job, as my bun never ate 100% normally after the dental procedures, like the dentist said he would. 
I very politely told him that, and he didn't come back to talk to me after the 2nd procedure, he asked someone else to do it and bring my bunny to me. It seemed that he was ashamed or afraid. :embarrassed:

I hope he's not filing my bun's teeth in a way there's malocclusion that will make him have to go back there all the time. His staff actually said "it seems like we'll see you again next month" more than once, and told stories about other pets that return every 1 or 2 months. :X

I find it weird about my bun because it took 5 years for the first problem to appear, and suddenly, being given the same food and treated the same way, it took only about 2 months for a bigger spur to be there, also with malocclusion this time (bun didn't have this before!) - how weird!!!!!! My mom thinks filing makes the problem worse. I suspect it's not the "filing", but the way it's being done!? ssd:

All pets I saw there were returning for a 2nd, 3rd, "n".. procedure. As we always have to pay hundreds again for "follow-ups", it can be interesting for them to do things in a "wrong-ish" way. Oh well, it's just my opinion, as there's no one who can legally check what they do in this ignorant country, and it's weird how fast it took a bigger problem to appear. I hope I'm wrong. :tears2:


That's why I always praise people who have real feelings and heart, like you, who really like animals, who are interested in their welfare for real! You give me a reason to believe there are still good people in this world! CONGRATS, you are all amazing! 
:great: :great: :great: :great: :great: :great::great:


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## tonyshuman (Apr 20, 2010)

You might want to up his protein levels to get more body tone, although with age bunnies start to lose muscle tone. I would think that more protein would be better than more carbs or fat. The sunflower seeds are probably fine if you want to get some more weight on him. Alfalfa hay can help with that too.

I don't know much Portuguese, but if you could find out what hays they feed to cows and horses in Brazil that might help. There must be some kind of grass hay that grows there. We've had members from all over the world, and there are many different kinds of grass hays. I remember one species of grass hay from South Africa that I had never heard of before. In the US, we have orchard grass, bermuda grass, oat hay, and timothy hay.

I found this rather off-topic reference where they fed some cows bermuda grass, so maybe that's available?
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_6917/is_2_22/ai_n31464511/
:dunno:

As for tooth trims, some people on here have bunnies that have to go in every 4-6 weeks. However, he should be back to normal within a few days after the procedure. The filing can make his mouth sore and make the few days right after a bit hard to eat.

That's terrible that you have to pay for follow-up procedures, and that the vets don't really know what they're doing. 

I would suspect that the reason it's not getting better is because the problem builds on itself. If one tooth is a little but off, it causes the rest of the teeth to get really messed up, sometimes. I wonder if the vet is worried to remove too much of a tooth, and is instead not removing enough.

Also, the procedure of tooth filing is similar to something they do to horses teeth called floating, I think. If you could find a vet that did horses and rabbits (I would love to have one of these myself!), they might know better what to do. Rabbits are a lot more like horses than they are like cats or dogs.


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## MILU (Apr 24, 2010)

I hope I find that good grass and that my bun's teeth stay ok for longer. I bought something for rabbits (like a calcium stone?) that is good for their teeth, but my bun doesn't like it much. Good thing is I almost haven't heard the "weird noise" anymore! 

Yes, I suspect if 1 tooth is slightly out of the place, it will make a general mess. That must happen when my bun gets his teeth filed. I'll give him a big party and tell him if he gets sick again, no more parties for him. Maybe that will help, hahaha


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## MILU (Apr 24, 2010)

I hope I find that good grass and that my bun's teeth stay ok for longer. I bought something for rabbits (like a calcium stone?) that is good for their teeth, but my bun doesn't like it much. Good thing is I almost haven't heard the "weird noise" anymore! 

Yes, I suspect if 1 tooth is slightly out of the place, it will make a general mess. That must happen when my bun gets his teeth filed. I'll give him a big party and tell him if he gets sick again, no more parties for him. Maybe that will help, hahaha


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## MILU (May 9, 2010)

Not even 1 month after having had his teeth filed, my bun is drooling, not eating, with his stomach messed up, etc... - again! 

I gave him mulberry leaves and some grass (don't know what kind) some weeks ago, but he ignored them. 
I think he can't eat them, as well as other foods; his teeth were never 100% ok after filed.. he cold only eat carrot leaves, broccoli leaves and pellets, and now he doesn't want to eat anything at all again. He's even been refusing sunflower seeds! 
At least I found out that the "weird noise" is associated to his dental problems, as now he's gotten worse again and the "weird noises" are back.

I know I'll have to take my bunny back to the dentist. I just don't know how it took 5 years for my bun to have ONE dental spur and after having it fixed, he's having spurs, malocclusion, whatever else, and it takes less than 1 month for all these issues to reappear... 

Anyway, I want to thank you all again, everybody knows that all of you from Rabbits Online are the ones who always save my bunny!
THANKS!


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## Pipp (May 9, 2010)

I'd say get the dentist to pull them. ASAP. 

I was just in with my friend's older bunny for his teeth and the vet took out three of his molars, he bounced back very quickly and has been one happy bunny. 

Part of the problem is that as rabbits age, they get long tooth roots. It could be that the tooth roots have bothered him and they're affecting his chewing and that in turn is causing the spurs, or the dental procedures themselves are disrupting the roots and causing problems. 

I posted this article before, I'm not sure if you printed it out for the vets, but here's an excerpt: 


http://www.theveterinarian.com.au/clinicalreview/article500.asp

_There is some controversy about how much to remove from the teeth. Some practitioners remove only the offending spur. It is not my aim to restore normal occlusion. By the time these procedures are required any return to normal occlusion is impossible as there have been irreversible changes to the tooth roots and dental disease will be permanent.

Some reports suggest burring will lead to heat necrosis of the tooth roots but I have seen no evidence in the many cases I deal with to support that contention. *However there is good evidence to suggest that occlusive pressure will drive affected teeth back into their sockets, and this disrupts the normal anatomy of the tooth apex. The gingival attachment and the periosteum are damaged.

Once again, as in the case of microfractures of the incisors, bacteria of the oral cavity can reach the tooth root and surrounding bone.

*By burring to within a millimetre of the gingival margin some of this occlusal pressure is relieved, and the likelihood of tooth root abscesses and associated osteomyelitis decreased. My clinical impression has been that rabbits that have their teeth shortened this way also return to eating more quickly, possibly because the root elongation has been painful.
_
I think the tooth root could now have been disturbed, and even if this isn't the case, the spurs are coming up too fast to keep up with. Best to pull the offending molars and possibly the opposite one as well. 

You may have to feed him already chopped veggies and maybe pellet mush (although its more likely he'll be able to eat pellets without a problem), but its very workable. 



sas :clover:


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## MILU (May 9, 2010)

Hi Sas

Yes, I remember the article...
my fear is that maybe pulling teeth will leave an empty space and maybe other teeth could get crooked moving towards the open spaces? 
I don' know how many molars would have to go. Last time he had teeth filed, he had 1 real big spur (same tooth as before) and lots of other teeth in different sizes, causing malocclusion. So you think my bun could get ok even without too many teeth, if it's the case he shall need to pull many? ray:
I also remember what was posted about antibiotics. I'd totally go for them if I found the ones missing (+ a vet willing to administer the injections!) but at this point, I start thinking the spurs are also a big problem...

** does "the opposite tooth" mean the one above/below the offending one? 

Thanks SO much, you always give me great advice! 
:big kiss:


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## Pipp (May 9, 2010)

I think they just need to pull the opposite tooth. So if they pull a molar on the right, they need to take the one on the left, too. That said, my vet pulled three teeth from Twinkles, so maybe its not a solid rule (or maybe he didn't know that).

Bunnies can do quite well without any teeth, but you may need to get creative with his diet.


sas :clover:


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## tonyshuman (May 9, 2010)

Some of the top molars aren't opposed--they don't have one on the bottom opposite them. I know they have to take the top tooth and the bottom, and it makes sense that they should take the left and right as well, but I haven't heard that one before. When I hear someone say "the opposite tooth" I think the one on the bottom if it's on the top, etc.


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## MILU (May 11, 2010)

Thanks for your input! Not being savvy at all, I'm a bit confused about how the molars shall be extracted, so I'm uploading some pics with the teeth numbered. It would be great if you could tell me which ones should go and which should stay. I numbered them as "SL" (superior left), "SR" (superior right), "IL" (inferior left) and "IR" (inferior right) with numbers starting from 1 (in the back of his mouth, near the throat) to 5 (closer to the mouth opening). I can see only 4 inferior molars in the pic (don't know if I'm seeing it right), if there are 5 on each side, please let me know and consider #1 to be still nearer to the throat and 5 farther from it. 

I guess this way there won't be mistakes. I'll explain to my bun's dentist which teeth shall go, according to what you say. 

I'm also posting again the pics of the 1st dental procedure filing spurs (01/22/2010) and the 2nd, on 04/13/2010. 

It seems like the second time my bun got ALL his molars files, superior and inferior. Well, that's what I see in the pics, not what they told me, as they hardly told me anything after the procedure. 
I'm not sure if having had problems on all molars means he should get them all extracted? He's being fed leaves/pellets juice. He refuses even soft ground leaves I process on the blender. It may be because he's hurt, if he can survive of these things well, then there's no problem.
He's got diarrhea now, I feel so bad for himâ¦ maybe because he's not eating any solids? I give probiotics once a day. 

Your input is beyond price, I appreciate your time and efforts, you're real heroes! :thanks:


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## MILU (May 11, 2010)

1st dental procedure with teeth filed (on 01/22/2010) pics:






2nd dental filing (on 04/13/2010) pics:





Numbered teeth, so you can tell me which ones shall go:


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## tonyshuman (May 11, 2010)

Here's a good poster for rabbit teeth:





The Photobucket links are working for me...

For the most recent trim, it looks like on the top and bottom, the worst tooth was M3 (the 3rd molar) on his left. M3 on the right was bad on the top too, and the two premolars (P1) on the top that are unopposed--there are 3 premolars on the top and 1 on the bottom--were bad too. The numbering system your vet used is a bit different, I will need some more time to look at it.


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## Pipp (May 11, 2010)

The diarrhea is of immediate concern. Are you giving him Critical Care or something like it? He needs a lot of fiber and fluids. Do you have canned pumpkin there? 


sas :clover:


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## Pipp (May 11, 2010)

:headsmack The opposing referencing may well mean top and bottom. 

I've sent the link to my vet, hopefully he'll respond soon.


sas :clover:


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## MILU (May 11, 2010)

Great chart!! I was looking for something like that and couldn't find.

It wasn't my vet who numbered the teeth, it was me..  I didn't even know there are molars and premolars and I couldn't find all the 5 inferior teeth on each side.. 
I only made that numbering to know what teeth should go, as I didn't understand the "opposite" rule too well. Do you think my bun should get all molars and premolars extracted? 
I thought the worst was M2. It seems like there's one tooth behind the inferior ugly one-?
I'm not sure if I can see well what's inside there. If you could write me all numbers (according to your chart) that shall go, it's gonna be great; as an example: superior and inferior M3 left and right side (all four M3), one P1 superior left, etc, 2 inferior P2 (right and left side), etc.. I don't want to miss any that shall go. 

SAS:
we don't have neither critical care or canned pumpkin. 
I tried to feed my bun pumpkin before, when he was ok, but he doesn't like it.. But I got pumpkin here. Should I make a juice and give him? I suppose I shall not cook it, right? 

Thanks again. Hopefully soon he'll be ok!


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## MILU (May 11, 2010)

I don't want to think so, but my bunny made some droppings (diarrhea) and there's a stain in the place that looks like blood. I'm not sure if it really is blood or if it's just a "colored" stain from the dropping. His stool is not watery, it's soft and comes out bigger than average droppings, sometimes smaller (sometimes as a cluster of smaller droppings all attached), but not watery. I don't know if that was blood or just a stain from diarrhea. The thing like "blood" was a stain under a big piece of stool. I'm shaking, so nervous!!!
His urine doesn't have any blood, though.


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## Pipp (May 11, 2010)

Its probably just residue from a watery cecal. They have two kinds of poop, its almost always the cecals that get runny from diet or stress issues. They can have normal fecal poops at the same time. 


sas :clover:


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## MILU (May 11, 2010)

This is like a video game: when I think I won a phase, all the former "enemies" come back at the same time to destroy my bun and I have to save him.

I noticed my bun started sneezing this evening and now I've just seen a little puddle of white mucus close to where my bunny was. Same kind he had before, and when I gave him azithromycin that time he got ok. 

Shall I give him the antibiotic again? I'm trying to get an appointment with the dentist, but God knows when they'll have time. They don't do emergency and appointments depend on their mood to book them.
Rabbits are such good pets, it's incredible we have almost no vets to take care of them, and the ones who do, don't seem to do it seriously. 

I don't know if I should try getting the teeth extracted before giving the antibiotic, or the opposite. I don't know if this white mucus can be caused by teeth. I'm so confused. My bun seems distressed this time, more than the other times. He's not moving much, not even to go to his "bathroom", he won't play... he's very bloated, when I move him I hear his belly like drums.

He refuses to eat. I don't know if the juices I give him make him worse? 
Fresh carrot leaves + broccoli leaves + pellets juice. Now I blended carrot + a few sunflower seeds juice (to see if he'd like it).. should I give him raw pumpkin juice? He can't eat any solids, only juices.. but he hates them  I won't give up, but my bun seems tired of it all.... 
:bigtears:


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## Pipp (May 12, 2010)

Poor bunny.  

You're in a tough spot. 

I'd probably try the antibiotics ASAP given the mucus, but he's got a serious digestive upset. 

I'd give him long long tummy rubs, keep him very warm and cross your fingers. 




sas ray:


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## Pipp (May 12, 2010)

PS: The fluids have been good, but if you've been giving them to him, he should be hydrated enough so let him rest. 

If you can give him a pro-biotic, though that would be good.


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## MILU (May 12, 2010)

Aw.. I was hoping to hear that the antibiotic could be left for later. His diarrhea is bad enough without them.
I don't see the mucus in his nose. I only saw it on the "puddle" once tonight but I know it's not a good sign. Maybe he's getting sick because when I syringe juice, his chin gets wet and he doesn't let me dry it properly? I was hoping the mucus was dental though.
The fluids are all his 'food'. I don't know how much is enough. I guess today I already gave him 30 ml total, between water and juice. I'd give 15 ml more tonight, but if you think he's had enough, I may leave him alone. Thanks again!


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## Pipp (May 12, 2010)

Could the mucus be coming from his bottom? A gel-like mucus is another sign of intestinal distress. 

If the Zithromax has bothered him before and you're dealing with the intestinal mucus, then hold off on the antibiotics but still find a probiotic. 

He really needs a solid fiber, but at this stage you just have to keep him going. 

Do you have Metacam or Baby Motrin? (Ibuprofen?) He's probably in a lot of pain. 


sas ray:


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## MILU (May 12, 2010)

I can get Ibuprofen or Metacam. How much should I give? They won't affect the intestines, right?

I haven't seen where the mucus came from tonight, but my bun was sneezing this evening, and It looked like the same kind of mucus as the other time, when it came from his nose. He hasn't sneezed for the last hours though, and I've seen no more mucus as well, but if I touch his nose, it's wet. There's translucent mucus in his feces, not the same, it seems. 

I try to make the juices as thick as possible but there are no syringes at all that allow thick stuff to pass through! If I try to put "grind leaf patty" in my bun's mouth, he spits it all out. His mouth is so hurt he can't even drink water by himself, and he hates syringing too. I guess the spurs make it hard for him to swallow, must have hurt his tongue really bad. 

When kids here are dehydrated with diarrhea, we mix 1 glass of water, 1 spoon of sugar and a tiny bit of salt and give to them. Do you think this can help my bun? I don't even know how to clean him.. he won't even let me! 
h34r2


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## Pipp (May 12, 2010)

I'd get him back to a Vet ASAP where he can get a subcutaneous infusion of fluids (under the skin) and a shot of antibiotics if they think its necessary. And they can give pain meds at the right dose. He has to have something in his stomach before you can give him Metacam, so that might not work. Maybe Tramadol or something.

I'm sure the Vet will also have some sort of high fiber paste for feeding sick herbivores, that's the most important thing. 

Best to find an electrolyte replacement without sugar -- like Pedialyte for babies, here -- and failing that try Gatorade (assuming you have that). 


sas :clover:


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## Pipp (May 12, 2010)

Here's a Library entry about force feeding. (Not very complete, but it might help). 

Force Feeding


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## MILU (May 12, 2010)

Thanks!! I tried to look for children's electrolyte drink earlier today. It seems like it doesn't exist here. We don't have any of the options for a bun with diarrhea 
Is canned pumpkin cooked pumpkin? 
I searched what "rice sock" is, that sounds like a great idea. I'll spread them everywhere my bun likes to stay


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## MILU (May 12, 2010)

We got an appointment on Friday (it's a lifetime for me and my bun! But that's "emergency" here). 
The dentist said he wants to file the teeth again, and said extracting teeth is not a good idea, as it will mess up the others remaining. I knew he'd say that, and that's exactly why I asked in detail what teeth shall go. I don't know if all will have to be extracted? If my bun can live well without teeth, and he needs it, I'll trust your judgement, whatever you say. 
In my opinion, what the dentist thinks is that, if he pulls my bun's teeth, his bank account will get messed up. I agree with you that these filing procedures seem to be damaging the roots, or whatever it is, they're not working and we can't keep doing them to my poor bunny over and over again. About extracting teeth, I still don't know/understand how many or which should go, but I wonder if they could all be extracted at once or if we'd have to do the process in more than 1 day.
Thanks again! 
:hug1


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## tonyshuman (May 12, 2010)

Sorry I didn't come back on last night. Canned pumpkin is cooked. You can microwave the pumpkin, cut in halves with the seeds and stem removed, or bake it at 350F covered with tinfoil and a bit of water in the pan. Baking usually takes about 20-30 min, microwaving about 10 min. Peel the skin off, let it cool a bit, and give it to him. You can smash it up a bit too, so that it will go through a syringe if needed. Many bunnies like it so much they don't need to be force fed.

The mucus in the poo and the nose could just be from stress. It's hard to say. Some bunnies get runny noses and mucus in the feces from a trip to the vet or from having to be force-fed. Mucus in the poo can also be a sign of GI issues. Pedialyte (dioralyte in the UK) is a good solution, but you could do the water with a tiny bit of sugar (no-calorie sweetener would be better) and some salt.

I still need to look at the teeth more in detail, sorry. Busy week at work.


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## Pipp (May 12, 2010)

Hey, great pumpkin advice! I'll add that to the Library/Cheat Sheet.

I've emailed the x-rays to my vet as well, haven't heard back. I'll have to nudge him. :stikpoke

How is he doing today? Is he any more active? 


sas :clover:


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## MILU (May 12, 2010)

Claire, I'm the one who's sorry for bothering you and asking so many questions! I can speak some languages, if any of you ever needs any help about it, let me know! I really appreciate your help, your integrity and the fact that you love animals! :heartbeat:

I used the advice given by SAS and it worked well. My bun ate "a lot" today (60 ml of juices and water - or 50 ml, considering he always misses some). I will try pumpkin later tonight, time my bun is more awake 

* The dentist told me again to give Rimadyl (Carprofen) but I've never given it. I heard it has lots of side effects and even killed dogs. I wonder how bad it would be for a little, weak bunny!!
Is there anything else I could give in case my bun has his teeth pulled? Remembering he may need zythromax, thinking of drug interactions.

I'd prefer to have a bun without any teeth than hurt. At least he would eat slurry without any pain. I depend on the dentist doing it, though.. he said he'll "evaluate" my bun on Friday. That means he'll try to convince me not to pull his teeth. 

** should I be concerned about the fact that it's 9:38 pm and I haven't seen my bun urinating?? He may have done it earlier today, but the last time I've actually seen it was last night. It was orange (not opaque), didn't look bad.
Today he produced about 3 little droppings only, I haven't seen anything else. He's not in the mood to leave his home event to go to his bathroom, but I haven't seen any pee at his home either.
It feels strange that after having had about 50 ml of juice, none came out yet (although I've started giving the juice about 1 hour ago and finished now). Maybe I'm just too worried? He's usually more active late at night, maybe it's not "time" yet?

Thanks a lot, Claire and Sas!!
:bunnyhug:


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## MILU (May 12, 2010)

*** PLEASE DISREGARD the last paragraph! He's just did it 
:time:

And I've just found another vet who seems to do dental service on rabbits. I'll take my bun there tomorrow. ray:


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## tonyshuman (May 12, 2010)

About Rimadyl, I think it is safe. Why did the vet recommend that particular one? Is meloxicam (Metacam) unavailable? What about tramadol or buprenorphine? Rimadyl is listed as safe on all the websites I could find it.
http://books.google.com/books?id=xT...IQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=carprofen rabbit&f=false
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Rabbits-703/Rimadyl-dosage.htm
http://www.medirabbit.com/Safe_medication/Analgesics/safe_analgesics.htm

I think there may be adverse reactions in some dogs that are hard to predict, but I can't find info on the same kind of thing happening in rabbits.

More later...


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## MILU (May 12, 2010)

Thanks, Claire! 
I personally think my vet prescribes Rimadyl because he's the only one who sells it, and it's very expensive, and each time he prescribes it, the price increases. 

Tramadol and Meloxicam can be bought anywhere here for about $5-$10, much cheaper and easier to get than Rimadyl. If you tell me the daily dose and for how long I should administer them, I'll use these.


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## tonyshuman (May 13, 2010)

This site lists the dosing--you want to take the dose listed in mg/kg and multiply that by his weight in kg. sid = once a day, bid = twice a day, qid= 4 times a day. For buprenorphine, I'd start at the low end and increase if you have to.

http://www.medirabbit.com/Safe_medication/Analgesics/safe_analgesics.htm


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## tonyshuman (May 13, 2010)

As for which teeth look to be bad, the ones closest to the throat (#1 on top and bottom, both sides) look pretty bad, and so do the ones farthest from the throat on the top (#5). But I'm no vet.

Is your vet willing to consult with a specialist on rabbit teeth? I know angieluv went to a vet who's a professor at the vet school here and is a real expert on rabbit teeth. If your vet is confident, he may be resistant to consult with another vet, but sending the pictures and x-rays and stuff to that vet electronically might be an option. I have a hard time saying "this tooth needs to go" because I'm not a vet. I do know that many bunnies get along ok without any teeth at all. In addition, it does look like he filed the teeth down a lot last time--but I don't know if maybe he didn't do it evenly, so that they grew back crooked...

Wanted to add too that when you think of whether it's good to remove teeth or not that it's important to think about how well the bunny will recuperate from an extraction surgery. They can be really painful. If there's any infection around the roots, though, they do need to go. I know previously the vet thought that there was no infection. It might be good to look at that again as an option.


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## MILU (May 13, 2010)

The new vet only gave my bun 2 injections: Rimadyl and one more (my mother got the name somewhere). Neither tramadol or meloxicam. 
He didn't extract any teeth yet, he said he'll try the injections for 2 more days and if they don't work then he "might" do the extraction. It sounds like either nobody wants or nobody is confident to do it! 

:foreheadsmack:


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## tonyshuman (May 14, 2010)

Yeah, it's a big surgery, and isn't he a bit older? Some vets are less confident working with older bunnies under anesthesia.


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## MILU (May 14, 2010)

He's 5... when he gets his teeth filed they use anesthesia too.. 

I don't think the antibiotic injections given yesterday helped him. Now his droppings got worse, and he got even more quiet.


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## Pipp (May 14, 2010)

There HAS to be a high fiber food out there. The Vet doesn't have anything at all for sick animals? 

Do you have rabbit pellets you can soak and give to him? 

If the vet gave him antibiotics, a probiotic is important. Do you have that? 


sas ray:


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## MILU (May 14, 2010)

I've been giving probiotic once a day, also pellet slurry. I don't know why the new vet gave my bun the antibiotic yesterday (Baytril + Rimadyl). They only made my bunny worse, as now he goes to his "bathroom" and almost nothing comes out. It wasn't much before anyway and I told the vet about the diarrhea. 

I'm explosively mad, because yesterday that new vet made me cancel the appointment we booked for today at my bun's dentist, and today that vet only told us to go see that same dentist he made us cancel!!!!!! :banghead 
Also, he said antibiotics should be given for 3 days, and now he's cutting them off and I wonder if this isn't bad for the white mucus (in nose) and sneezing that the last time was solved with zythromax - thanks to YOU from Rabbits Online, not our vets!!!!!

So now, as my bun took antibiotics yesterday, I don't know if I have to immediately give zythromax again, in order to prevent a spread of the respiratory infection, or if I should wait or what.... I'm so lost!
Also, I think of giving metacam - would that make my bun produce droppings?
Is dipirona ok for the pain?
he hasn't taken anything today. The new vet made things much worse only, and now simply told us to go to the dentist (as I would have done if it wasn't for him!), leaving my bun with the damage. 
Now I understand why I've been losing so much hair that it seems I'll go bald. 
ullhair: :X


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## Pipp (May 14, 2010)

I've asked my vet and another source, so hang tough. 

Definitely increase the pellet slurry though. 



sas :clover:


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## Pipp (May 14, 2010)

Definitely not dipirona. I'm not sure that medicam will help if the rimadyl didn't, he may be suffering more from lack of food than pain. 

But if you give him some, make sure he has a good bit of slurry and water in his system before he gets it. 


sas :clover:


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## MILU (May 14, 2010)

Today he's already eaten 20 ml of apple + carrot juice and 10 ml of pumpkin juice (he can't swallow well the pumpkin puree), and 12 ml of "thinner" liquids like water. It seems like he really wants to go to the "bathroom" since yesterday. He goes to the place and tries for some time and nothing comes out, I can see it's been a source of distress for him, and maybe the reason why he almost doesn't move (only to run away from feeding). I usually like to give richer foods at night, when he should be more active. How many "ml" should be the minimum to feed him? I don't know if I give enough, about 50-75 ml/day of freshly blended juices and water.

I don't know if Rimadyl worked or not, I just know that the vet said: "as he's worse (not moving, not producing droppings), let's not give it to him anymore; take him back to the dentist". I wish he had told me yesterday NOT to cancel the appointment! He had given the impression he could do the extraction. Now we may only get one appointment for Tuesday - if we're lucky...

Thank you all for being there and always willing to help. You make me believe there are still good people in this world!


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## Pipp (May 14, 2010)

I doubt that is constipation, its either gas or he's straining to pee. Has he been peeing okay before now? I suspect its gas. 

He's getting a lot of fluids but still not much fiber. What is the contents of the pellets? Do you have the ingredients list with the fiber and protein counts? 

Can you give him gas meds containing Simethicone? Long tummy massages will also help, and gentle exercise. 

The pain meds should help this a little, but you have to make sure they're not causing further upset. 

I'd ease up on the fluids and try for more fiber. But first try the massage and simethicone, ASAP. 


sas :clover:


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## Pipp (May 14, 2010)

My vet, Dr. Martinez, is taking a look at this. 

Can you quickly summarize his diet from before his teeth started acting up right through to now? 

Thanks. 

EDIT: Ah, I just realized most of it is in the other thread... 

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=53715&forum_id=16

I don't know why after five years that molar spurs are suddenly not only appearing, but they're in appearing in overdrive. 

If we can get him through this bout, hopefully there's a good diet and/or surgery plan that can help for the future. 


sas :? :clover:


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## Pipp (May 14, 2010)

*hotmaildeal wrote: *


> Today he's already eaten 20 ml of apple + carrot juice and 10 ml of pumpkin juice (he can't swallow well the pumpkin puree), and 12 ml of "thinner" liquids like water. It seems like he really wants to go to the "bathroom" since yesterday. He goes to the place and tries for some time and nothing comes out, I can see it's been a source of distress for him, and maybe the reason why he almost doesn't move (only to run away from feeding). I usually like to give richer foods at night, when he should be more active. How many "ml" should be the minimum to feed him? I don't know if I give enough, about 50-75 ml/day of freshly blended juices and water.


As noted, this bunny needs fiber, all these fluids and veggies could be causing the upset. 

Its better to stick with subcutaneous fluids and high fiber for the force-feeding, the bunny pellets mushed up. 

I just heard back from my best source(s), Rami (MediRabbit.com, Etherbun Yahoo Group), and they are in agreement with this. 

Here's the gist of the post: 

---------

_If molars are having problem this often, the option of pulling molars should be seriously considered. Repeated gas anesthesia is not so much the problem, the stress of monthly visits to the vet, discomfort after the treatment, pain. 
_ 
_At this rate, if no (infection) problems now, they will come sooner or later, as the wounds in the mouth will never have time to fully heal, and there is already a new trim waiting._

_... grind pellets in a coffee grinder (the cheapest available will do) and add water to make a puree. It is as good as Critical care. Probiotics can be given or added to the puree. 
_ 
> The owner had him on Zithromax for a previous bout but it
> did affect his appetite and GI tract so she's afraid to try
> again given that he's not eating.

_This is sometimes observed in rabbits, and goes (away) after 3 to 4 days of antibiotics. It is mainly due to bacteria dying, releasing toxins, causing discomfort._

> of baytril and a shot of rimadyl, apparently he's also had a
> runny nose, the rabbit is now worse. 

_ There are many other antibiotics safe for use in rabbits.
http://www.medirabbit.com/Safe_medication/Antibiotics/Safe_antibiotics.htm
_ 
> giving him veggies in a blender. 

_ This will lead to weight loss. She better uses pellets for rabbits, even poor quality ones will do well. The rabbit needs energy and solid food, not watery food that will contribute to diarrhea. 

As to runny nose, this can indicate a root problem with the incisors, compression of the naso-lachrymal duct, leading to watery discharge.
_ 
-------

I really do trust the sources on Etherbun and MediRabbit. 



sas :clover:


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## MILU (May 14, 2010)

Hi Sas

Bun's been peeing ok, he's just did it and it's clear, light yellow color, good amount. 

You're so right, you know my bun without having seen him! He's been losing weight. 
__________________________

I have 2 different kinds of pellets:
__________________________

1 - "Funny Bunny" 
Ingredients: dehydrated alfalfa, ground corn, rice, corn gluten, wheat bran, dehydrated carrot, rice hulls, salt, calcium, bicalcium phosphatem amino acid vitamin-mineral premix.

Moisture (max.) 12%
Crude Protein (min.) 17%
Crude Fat (min.) 3%
Fiber (max.) 18%
Ash (max.) 13%
Calcium (max.) 1,5%
Phosphorus (min.) 0.4% 

(no more info about it)

___________________________

2 - "Purina Natural Line (Rabbits)"

Basic composition:
Ground soybean hulls, starch, carrot powder, molasses, salt, Yucca extract, choline chloride, lysine, calcitic calcarium, wheat bran (54,813%), sunflower bran, fungistatic antifungal additive, mineral vitamin premix.

Possible substitutes:

dicalcium phosphate, extruded whole soybean, baking soda, rice bran, Coast Cross hay, canola meal, kaolin, sugar, meat flour, corn gluten meal 21, alfalfa hay, corn gluten - 60 bran, re-ground wheat, soybean oil degummed, methionine, ground whole sorghum grain, ground rice hulls, refined soybean oil, wheat flour, corn germ, oat hulls, soybean meal, cassava (manioc) flour , broken rice.

Moisture (max.) 12%
Crude protein (min.) 14%
Crude fat (min.) 1,50%
Fiber (max.) 20%
Ash (max.) 15%
Calcium (max) 2%
Phosphorus (min.) 0,50%


- Enriched with (by Kilogram of the product):

Copper - 24 mg
Zinc - 120 mg
Manganese - 96 mg
Iodine - 2,40mg
Selenium - 0,22 mg
Cobalt - 1,20 mg
Vitamin A - 8.000,00 UI
Vitamin D3 - 1.650,00 UI
Vitamin E - 16,07 UI/Kg
Pantotenic acid - 2 mg
Vitamin B12 - 4 mcg
Propionic acid - 1.207,00mg
Yucca extract - 250 mg
Choline - 120 mg
Lysine - 6 g
Magnesium - 2 g
Sodium - 2,20 g

______________

Before the dental problem started, my bun used to eat mostly fresh leaves: catalonia leaves, carrot leaves, broccoli leaves, cabbage, kale, cauliflower leaves (about 80% of his diet). 2nd best eaten food: pellets.
3rd: a little bit of carrots, bananas, apple, alfalfa hay, and sometimes (rarely) guava leaves and twigs, mango leaves and twigs. 

He started having this problem in January (2010). I traveled for 6 months in 2009, returning in December (2009). I don't know if that has to do with the problem. My family always told me he was being well fed. When I came back he was well fed too. 

Yes, it's likely that his problem is gas! I won't give dipirona. 
He stays in a position that is hard to touch his tummy. 

His exercise has been running away from feeding. I don't stress him too much, so after 1 or 2 gulps, he wants to run away and I let him go, but soon I bring him back to my lap and feed him 1 or 2 gulps again. Then he runs a little, and so on.. 

** Yesterday someone told me she knew of another rabbit who'd see my bun's dentist and needed to go there every month to get his teeth filed. That made me, once again, think he may do the work leaving the teeth slightly uneven, causing malocclusion.. after the procedures, when my bunny would eat, I've always heard his teeth scratching each other, producing a horrible noise, not the usual chewing noiseâ¦ 

Thanks for all the advice and for being so nice and helpful! I trust everything you say, no matter what our vets say. 

:thumbup


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## Pipp (May 14, 2010)

Mix the two brands together, soak them very well (30 minutes or so) and give him that. 

The teeth grinding noise unfortunately sounds like a severe pain response. I'd give him the Metacam ASAP if you haven't already. 

Could it be that your family was feeding him mostly pellets while you were gone? That would account for the molar spurs in the first place. Its possible (I'm not saying likely, just possible) the dentist didn't do a proper filing them in the first place and that's why they're back. And/or he could have gotten an infection in the tooth root from the procedure that's stopped him from chewing and wearing them down. 

I'd get the pain and gas relief taken care of ASAP, and only give him the pellet slurry from here on in. 


sas :clover:


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## MILU (May 14, 2010)

I suspect my family didn't feed my bun with as many varieties as I do, but they say they fed him right and say the problem only appeared after I was back... 

Either if my bun's dentist left the teeth slightly uneven, or if the roots are infected, I think extraction is the way now, because filing isn't working, the problem is back too soon. 

I'll follow your advice about feeding, thanks a lot! Can I still give some apple juice? My bun likes it...


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## tonyshuman (May 15, 2010)

I agree that extraction is probably the best bet. I wouldn't worry about him going under anesthesia, but it's just one of those things that people are really afraid of with rabbits--too much so, usually.

It sounds like you're doing a great job keeping food in him. The pain meds usually will help with constipation because when the belly is in pain they just shut down. Gas meds, massages, and keeping up the feeding should help. If he really struggles against the food, it could be really serious. It would be really hard to have to do this until Tuesday--I hope he starts to poo more so you don't have to worry.

Tooth issues are usually genetic but don't always show up until later in life. Maybe it takes that long for the teeth to grow in a way that will make them have noticeable problems, and once they've gotten that far, grinding them only takes them back in time a few months, not years, which is how long the underlying issues have been going on. That's my guess, anyway.


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## ra7751 (May 15, 2010)

It sounds to me as if there is an awful lot of ineffective things going on here. Certainly the spurs need to be addressed but if you can't get the gut under control, it won't matter. Taking into consideration your location, the best way to start stabilizing the gut is to make things as basic as possible as far as feeding....and using a targeted antibiotic. Drop the Baytril as it isn't doing much of anything other than causing GI issues. Metronidazole (Flagyl) is excellent at controlling Clostridium (which is the bacteria that most often caused diarrhea and GI upset). Dose 20mg/kg PO BID. This drug also offers anti-inflammatory properties. A one time injection of a vitamin, B Comp, dosed at 2mg/kg will help with the appetitie. Metacam is the preferred NSAID as it seems to be absorbed better than the others when used in a rabbit. Looking at those teeth, it might be helpful to be a little more aggressive with the pain meds....maybe either Tramadol or Buprenex. Either of those can be used in conjuction with Metacam.

Randy


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## MILU (May 15, 2010)

Thanks, Claire - he did it! 2 big droppings (cecum?) with mucus. He got so happy that he even played a little and went to sleep. Before sleeping I made him eat again - 15 ml of pellet slurry and drink 10 ml of water. 

Randy, thanks a lot for your help! How long should I give him Flagyl? I understand the others (Metacam, Tramadol) are for as long as he's in pain, right?

Do you think that the antibiotic you told me about before (for root abscess) could also stop the teeth from growing and getting spurs (for whatever reason they may be growing)? I never found any vet here who was willing to give the injections, as it's hard to get someone to extract my bun's teeth too.... the last vet I went to made my bun worse with Baytril + Rimadyl (promising he'd eat after taking them) then told us, still at the waiting room, to go back to my bun's dentist (i.e., a polite "don't come back here"). I guess as my bun got worse, he must be afraid my bun will die in his hands (but he won't die!). 
I've been trying all I can with the vets, but some (many) times my efforts are in vain.... some time things will have to work, though. I really appreciate your help, you and everybody here are real heroes!


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## Maureen Las (May 15, 2010)

Hi 

The animal dentist that took care of my rabbit's Beau's extensive problems is a professor at the University of Wisconsin , Madison WI; he is extremely knowledgeable, however, my concern is that your dentist may not have the the necesary equipment,tools, anesthesia or drugs necessary to care for the mouth correctly.
here is the link to the University dental program. if you cllckon the links of the dentist there is an email for Dr William Gengler who is the most experienced
You could email him asking him if you could send him the dental xrays and also ask him if he would be willing to talk to the dentist in Brazil. be sure to let him know that you are in South America 

Does your dentist speak english? 

http://uwveterinarycare.wisc.edu/sa_services/surg/dentistry/default.htm

Click on the name William Gengler on the first page and a page will appear with his picture . There is an email under the pic. 
I don't know if he can help but he is a very nice man. 

Maureen


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## MILU (May 16, 2010)

Thanks for the info, Maureen! Sas also gave me some useful info I can ask the dentist to do, hopefully he will.
I don't know the dentist speaks English, I'm more concerned about his willingness to do it. When we first went to (other) vets to treat my bun, Randy told us it was a dental issue (long before the vets knew it, they told me my bun was stressed!!!!) and Randy said he could talk to those vets and they refused to accept Randy's help. Of course I'm not seeing them anymore, but the others aren't too different. The last one was my friend's father, she told me he's "the best", father was a professor at the best university here, and on the 2nd visit told us to leave already from the waiting room, after he asked and I politely said his injections made my bun worse. My friend is sorry, but that is a great example of how our vets are really bad, no matter what. The dentist does a good job, hasn't killed any pet (which is exceptional), the only thing is that the problem is back too soon and as he spoke to my mother on the phone, it seems like he doesn't want to extract the teeth as I asked. I don't know if he's humble enough to accept help, but I can talk to him. He seems to be better than the others executing the work. If Dr. Gengler could tell me his opinion, and what teeth to extract it would also be great. If he and my dentist could be in touch, that would surely be fantastic! I appreciate!


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## MILU (May 17, 2010)

Now I've seen something that scared me. He's releasing a lot of translucent mucus from his "behind", also watery stuff (not pee). He's been producing feces (not much, but a few). Now I've grabbed him and he was all wet and I saw all the stuff on the ground. The gel-like mucus was bigger than the size of a quarter, and the watery stuff wasn't "much" (not as much as pee), but made him and the carpet wet. I guess that's why I've seen "watery" stains around. I thought it was from drooling. 
And I've seen mucus on feces before, but now it's only translucent mucus, so it seems more scary. I got an appointment with the dentist tomorrow. I hope he stays well until then and gets home ok.
ray: ullhair:


***** as I walk around, I find more and more of the gel-like mucus. I've just found stuff sized like 2 more quarters, and "tall" too (about 0.30 inches?) 
There's a little of it also in his bathroom. 
Bun doesn't look bad (I mean, not worse than before) but I don't know if all the mucus is a (too) bad sign?

:cry4:


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## Pipp (May 17, 2010)

That's a typical sign of intestinal distress, which isn't surprising given his tummy upsets. 

Just don't panic. It doesn't mean its worse. Keep giving him the mushed up pellets and the probiotic. He really needs to stick to just fiber and fluids. If you give him apple juice, water it down.

Also, the vets may not be as bad as you think, it doesn't sound like you're not giving them much of a chance, they may not be as willing to discuss treatments if they feel they're on the 'hot seat'. The dentist probably won't discuss extractions until he actually sees him. 



sas :clover:


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## ra7751 (May 17, 2010)

I would get some Metronidazole going....and in medical terms....stat. Mucus in the fecal matter is an indicator of a bacterial imbalance in the GI. I don't know if this product is available there, but I have been using a product called BioSponge. Basically it is a "scrubber". It can bind and absorb the enterotoxins (most likely caused by a bacteria known as Clostridium) that is causing the mucus.

Randy


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## MILU (May 17, 2010)

Biosponge sounds nice, but we don't have it (as well as critical care, etc.)
I got Flagyl. For how many days should I give it?

The "watery stuff" is actually as much as pee or more (but it's not pee). I've just seen more, with a little more mucus. He seems to "release" a lot of it.

**** Everytime I look around some place he stayed, I see more and more and more of the gel-like mucus and the "mysterious water". My bun's behind is wet, even if I wipe it, it gets wet again. I don't like this, it's too weird, my bun's never been like this before! :cry4: :bawl:

Sas - I'm always nice and polite when I talk to the vets here (maybe so much they think I'm a fool), always listen, and speak when they ask, but I don't return when they make big mistakes such as killing all animals I saw them treating and asked about and they told me they all died. In the last case, the vet asked me already at the waiting room how my bun was. Right after I said "he got worse", he refused to continue treating him. I think he was afraid my bun would die in his hands, as he treats mostly dogs, and mostly showering and grooming dogs - and this is one of the "big" vet names here too. 
I'm not a vet at all, but I had in mind that metacam could be good and I asked the vet and he said it was not. I had told him before how zythromax saved my rabbit and he asked how come my rabbit didn't throw up or even died because zythromax should have killed him (he doesn't even seem to know that rabbits can't throw up?!!!). That's why I get mad. I won't give them a 2nd change. I simply don't return.
The dentist is ok, clean, always keeps the rabbit alive, I respect him as the best here, who doesn't kill animals and doesn't make mistakes, although the fact that the issues come back too soon and worse, and we're always charged more each time we're back could be questionable considering where I am, but I never said a thing to him, after all, maybe that's not his fault, and he does a good work. I'll talk to him in person about extractions and maybe he'll change his mind. If he doesn't, I can do nothing else than keep filing bun's teeth until he can't stand anymore, but it's not being cool. 
We don't have savvy guys like on RO... 
Thank God my rabbit was born on internet days, and thank God there are real wise and good people like you to help us, my rabbit and I appreciate!


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## tonyshuman (May 17, 2010)

I would give the Flagyl at least until the mucus clears up. I am so thankful for my vets right now. I would have a huge fit at the vet's if they treated me like they do you. Please let us know how his GI is doing.


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## MILU (May 17, 2010)

** When I wipe my bun's behind, below his tail, it's very hard (the area around where he poops, hard area must be as big as a baseball, the end of his belly)... I don't like this... bun can still jump and run from feeding, but I don't know if this is "good" activity. This hard "behind" is more than weird and he drops the jelly all over and keeps moving from one place to another because everywhere he goes gets wet. 
I wouldn't even know where to take him, if the "good", "great" vet was the one who caused this and the others are just as bad!! The dentist isn't there today (we got the appointment tomorrow) but he only takes care of teeth and nothing else.
If my bun needs to "go", I'd rather have this happening in my hands though, where he's loved. I hope I'm just being paranoid and I really appreciate your help.


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## MILU (May 17, 2010)

* Claire - I don't fight with the vets because there's no law here to check their activity. If I complain to them, they'll laugh at me. If I complain at the court, they'll claim they're "the best" and I'm nobody and know not what I say. This place is a hellhole and I'd leave it if only I could!


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## Maureen Las (May 17, 2010)

You are truly in a horrible situation ; I really feel for you . You can only do what you can do and you are trying more than 100%
Icomplain about the vets near me but I have never been in a situation like yours
:hug:ray:
The flagyl seem to be the best route to take right now 
"Hugs"
Maureen


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## tonyshuman (May 17, 2010)

Oh, does he have a prolapsed rectum? That could happen from straining to pass the mucus.  I'm trying to figure out what this baseball thing you mention is. I know that male rabbits in particular have a raised area around their urethral and anal openings, but it's not usually protruding that much. 

Can you put him on microfleece or an artificial sheepskin? They can wick away moisture so that he won't have to move around so much.  Poor guy, I hope someone else knows what this bum thing is that you're talking about...


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## Pipp (May 17, 2010)

*hotmaildeal wrote: *


> ** When I wipe my bun's behind, below his tail, it's very hard (the area around where he poops, hard area must be as big as a baseball, the end of his belly)...



This could be a swollen cecum, also from the GI distress. Can you get photos? 

One thing to keep in mind is that while the dental issues are causing the lack of eating and thus the imbalance and leading to all the GI tract problems, something also may well have made him stop eating enough for the molar spurs to take hold in the first place. 

My vet hasn't been able to respond, there's just too much information for him to sort through, but he brought up a good point. If he didn't have molar spurs for five years and then he did, why the change? The diet has to be examined as does any other health issues that may have made him stop eating. 

I think seeing as it coincided with you being away, maybe he was being fed slightly different things that didn't wear down his teeth as well, and/or he was depressed by your absence and ate less, or all this time he's had another health issue affecting his appetite. 

I've been in touch with the Bio-Sponge company, f you PM me your shipping info, the they will give me a quote about a two-day shipping option. 


sas :clover:


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## MILU (May 17, 2010)

Oh, I guess it must be a prolapsed rectum then.. It's a somewhat big area (sort of as big as a baseball, not that it looks like one, won't show in pics because of the legs and tail around it) felt harder when I wiped my bun, around the rectum area. I put him on his rags to keep him warm and to absorb the stuff but they get wet and he goes somewhere else. Whatever he does, the mucus is continuously there, dropping. Eek!

I may as well be desperate over nothing. I've just never seen this much mucus and "water" and stuffâ¦â¦. bunny doesn't look like dying though, only resting. I'm keeping him warm with heaters. I don't know if I should feed him now as it extremely bothers him..? 

My bun's diet hasn't changed before the dental procedures. After the dental procedures (and even before) I was here and my bun always had plenty of variety of the things he always had. 
I asked my parents about changes in diet, thinking they could have been lazy and gave my bun less fresh leaves, but they told me: "the problem begun after you were back". That is right. 
I've always fed him the same plenty of stuff, he has his leaf preferences, which only changed after the dental procedures. If I'm guilty, I've been doing wrong for a long timeâ¦ 
A long time ago my bun had about 2 onsets of "crying" eyes and sneezing, but vet told us it was allergy (no exams performed). He's always eaten well before january.


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## Pipp (May 17, 2010)

There is a BIG difference between a prolapsed rectum and a swollen cecum. One is a big red ball or finger shaped thing protruding out the anus, the other is a fur covered lump on the lower tummy. 

If it looks more like a big hemorrhoid, keep it moist with warm water and even a little mineral oil. 

The teeth problems may not have started until you got back, but it takes awhile for teeth to grow, so had something changed in his diet, it wouldn't show up as a tooth issue until much later. It could be something as innocent of chewing on a stick or tree that was taken away. 

Trauma might have caused it too. He could have fallen or hopped into something and hurt his jaw. 

Or as noted, something else could have made him lose his appetite and the spurs start growing. 

Still waiting to here from the Bio-Sponge person. 


sas :clover:


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## Pipp (May 17, 2010)

I just PM'd you the shipping costs info for the Bio-Sponge, for about $80 US she can have it to you on Wednesday if you let her know ASAP. 

You may want to check the cost of the product with her, too. 

Good luck with whatever you decide!


sas :clover:


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## MILU (May 17, 2010)

Thanks, Sas! 

It's not the hemorrhoid thing! It's more like a big lump. It must be the cecum thing. His droppings look more like cecum, if that makes any difference (big clusters, but now all messed up).

"Innocent things" - ready to laugh? 
When he was a baby, he used to bite certain things like wooden tables and chairs, esp. a couch (he dug a hole behind it (where nobody could see h34r2) to attack the inner wooden structure and try to make that his new surreptitious private hole home). A couple of times we got home and the bunny disappeared and we thought he ran away somehow. Surprise, he was into the couch! (I bet you've never heard about this before LOL) It was "fun" for him but I surely got rid of the couch, but that was many months before I traveled. The chairs and table are still here, but he doesn't bite them anymore. My brother keeps saying he's too old for biting wood (he doesn't even show interest in twigs like before). We also say jokes about him missing the couch too much to bite the chairs and cables. I can even leave the tv cable down and he does nothing. Could it be... THE COUCH..?????? 

:faint::thud:

That's gonna be tough. 
It was a long time ago.. I hope it's not. He has plenty of chairs... we're not replacing the couch as we know it's gonna become improper bunny chewing material and home. And when I traveled, he stayed in another city (no couch or chairs within his reach, but that was when he didn't like them already).

:sofa:

** I've just replied the email. Hopefully I can buy less quantity (1 pound is a bit much), and the customs house tends to be mean and take longer to let go purchases above a certain value..


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## Pipp (May 17, 2010)

You can buy the Bio-Sponge by the tube for small pets. 

And yes, I should have thought of that. The Canadian Customs would also hold it for inspection. 

For that matter, I had asked and they can't ship to Canada because Customs won't let it through at all. And while Brazil will let it through, they will probably hold it for awhile before they do. 

Keep up with the pellet slurry, probiotic and the Flagyl. 


sas :clover:


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## MILU (May 17, 2010)

Thanks for all Sas! 

I hope it's ok for my bun to have anesthesia tomorrow. And I hope the after-procedure/anesthesia doesn't have this mucus and watery stuff, they're creeping me out!

Yes, I've been giving the pellet slurry, probiotic and flagyl. I wish I could also give that vet some injections and make HIM lose as much fluids and mucus as my bun, and feel the discomfort he caused in him. I believe what we do comes back to us sometime. He'll have it. And I more than hope that you get more than all the good things you deserve! 
:big kiss:


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## tonyshuman (May 18, 2010)

Thinking of you guys today. Hope the tooth procedure goes well!


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## MILU (May 18, 2010)

Thanks for the good vibes!!

The dentist said he could extract that (ONE) tooth if it still had the recurring spur. Said he'd talk to me to decide what to do after seeing the teeth, but he didn't. I don't think he knows about the "opposite" tooth extraction rule, as he was willing to extract only 1 tooth.

No tooth was extracted. Lower jaw teeth were filed again, 1 spur was found in the same bad tooth (1st pic), 1 spur in the opposite tooth (1st pic below). Tongue has a big lesion (pointed at the 3rd pic in the sequence with arrows). Upper teeth were left misaligned (last pic). Dentist said he wants to know if my bun doesn't eat because of spurs or also malocclusion.








There was something sticky on bun's fur (superficially on his back), yellowish. (pics below). On the same spot, but close to the skin, some white crusts. Maybe they gave an injection and some fell out on his skin? I asked if they gave an injection to my bun, they said "nothing there". They had said they gave him medication though (I don' know what). 
My bun didn't have this thing when I gave him to them. 




















Back home, bun was grinding his teeth. I don't even know if I should/cold give medicine today as I don't know what was given by the dentist (Rimadyl - ?) and I fear drug bad interactions. 

Bun fell asleep but woke up grinding his teeth loudly again. The dentist said maybe bun's not happy with the misalignment of the upper teeth, but maybe it's anesthesia and we should wait and see what happens. I don't think it has to do with anesthesia.

My bun has been losing a LOT of weight and fluids, is distressed and grinding teeth frenetically, consuming energy he may not have. 

His weight:
1st procedure (January): he had already lost lots of weight when he was weighed, after weeks of starvation and mouth smelling acetone. He was 2.5 Kilos (thin already)
2nd procedure (April)= 2.2 kilos
3rd procedure (May) = he's 2 kilos only, skin and bones. 
That's 1/5 of his weight lost in 4 months.
I don't want him wasting his energies in vain, he's alreasy losing fluids with the crazy mucus, that is still haunting us.

I told the dentist I'd rather have my bun without teeth than suffering with the ones he has. He said we can't do that, and that bun will suffer with extractions (whatever number it is). Also pointed that it's not easy to extract rabbits' teeth. 

Bun now ate 3 bites of broccoli leaf and 3 pellets. Also some sunflower seeds. After the 3rd bite of broccoli he started the grinding his teeth again.
The dentist will only work again on Friday, so I hope my bun eats better soon. He now drops all I give him with the syringe by grinding his teeth.

Still I'm glad my bun is alive, he's such a warrior, he never dies!!! 
Thank you all for your priceless support!


:hug: :bouquet:


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## MILU (May 19, 2010)

My internet connection has been slow, so I could only finish uploading this now. A video of my bun grinding his teeth.
Now he's been back home for more than 12 hs and he's not grinding his teeth as aggressively and loudly as before, but he's been "chewing nothing" and he doesn't stop. I don't know if he's getting better or tired of the loud grinding. 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aw1vNFlYzE[/ame]


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## Maureen Las (May 19, 2010)

If you believe that medication leaked from an injection given at the vets then I would clean the area off his fur so that he doesn't ingest it when he grooms himself. 


if the spur was growing into his tongue then I would think that he would feel much better now. 
I watched the video and it is very dark, however, I could see the mouth motion.; is this actually grinding of teeth or or constatnly. moving his mouth 

Itappears that something inside his mouth is bothering him quite a bit. my rabbit never did anything like that after his teeth were done. 

I would go ahead and give pain meds. 

to be honest I cannot believe that your bun is still fighting after going through so much. 
keep us updated. ray:


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## MILU (May 19, 2010)

I was inserting pellet pieces in my bun's mouth and felt his incisors misaligned. Checked them and they don't look good anymore. They were aligned before. My bun strongly smells medicine (not the other times he had dental procedures. The thing on his back was probably stuff from an injection). I cleaned the area, but it still smells strong and fur feels slightly "harder" at the site.


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## Maureen Las (May 21, 2010)

How is he :?


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## tonyshuman (May 23, 2010)

bump

I am really terribly busy of late but I'd like to know if Milu (is that his name?) is doing ok.
ray:


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## MILU (May 24, 2010)

He FINALLY produced some droppings!!! After that he started eating more and got a little happier, too, so I dropped all medicine, including Flagyl.
Funny thing is that he doesn't drink any water (since the last dental procedure). I give it to him via syringe. The fact that he produced droppings and ate is good enough, though, I'm happy.
:litterhealthy: :woohoo

I'll have to talk to the dentist to see what he'll do as a next step, as the teeth are still all there. I guess I should stop worrying about the scary things my bun goes through, he's a "rock rabbit", thanks to the directions you gave me! 
:muscleman:

Thank you for everything!!
* yes, his name is Milu!


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## Maureen Las (May 25, 2010)

he is really a survivor ; I am glad that no news was good news


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## MILU (May 26, 2010)

Sorry, I didn't know well what to say while waiting.... I was worried to death, but he turned out to be ok! I just hope his dentist has something in mind about the extraction(s).. I'll let my bun eat and gain some weight before returning to the dentist, though. Strangely, he still won't drink water. But that's "ok" considering all the rest!  

Thanks to all of you!!
:big kiss:


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## MILU (Jun 4, 2010)

Mmmm I'll ask about this, just in case..
My bun sneezed white mucus again 2 nights ago. After the mucus came out he didn't sneeze anymore. 
He's been eating well, also drinking water on his own, he's even happier and playing more. Bathroom activities fine too. I just keep wondering if the white mucus could be pasteurella (for some reason this idea is stuck in my mind) or if he caught a cold, or if this is "normal", or a reaction to his misaligned teeth. He doesn't seem bothered except for when he sneezes and the thick white mucus comes out. He had these episodes very sparsely (3 onsets in life, all happened this year, after his dental issue was 1st treated). As our vets are destructive, I prefer to ask you what you think.

The 1st time ever my bun had this I gave him zythromax and the mucus stopped. Well, until he had it for the 2nd and 3rd times, that is. I'm not sure if this has to do with the fact that when I syringed food, my bun "drooled" and got wet (around mouth, neck and a tip of 1 paw) for some time (got a cold?) or if it has nothing to do with it (pasteurella? nothing?)
I don't know if I should give him more antibiotics. I feel bad for him, always on medicine and having dental work done.. and I thought it was easy to be a rabbit!

Thanks!


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## Maureen Las (Jun 4, 2010)

Most rabbits have a "pasturella" type bacteria in their system , however, their immune system keeps it in check. 

I used to have a bun who would have white snot inside his nostrils and he would just sniff it back inside ; it never dripped and he never showed other symptoms 

the vet felt that I should let his immune system handle it and that is what I did. 

My dental patient bunny , RIP Beau , often got some URI symptoms when his teeth were especially infected . 

Iwould guess that your guys dental problems make it more difficult to ward off latent bacteia. 

I don't think that what you are describing now warrants treatment, however, you should watch him and consider treating if symptoms increase. 

he still sounds like he is doing well


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## MILU (Jun 4, 2010)

Thanks a lot, Angieluv! 
He doesn't show any symptoms now, so I'll let it be. What are the URI signs of the infection? Sometimes, when my bun stops eating, his pee gets smelly and the last time (some weeks ago) I saw some "substantial" stuff in it, I don't know what it was, but it looked firmer than what it was supposed to be. Now it's all normal, but it's good to know just in case. Oh, I gotta check who won the contest!! 

*** Sorry to hear about Beau... :innocent :bunnyangel:
He must be playing with my 1st bunny who "traveled" to the same place as her...


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## Maureen Las (Jun 4, 2010)

The cloudy chunky pee is not normal but if it has returnd to normal that is good .

Beau's issues were ongoing for 5 years and treated for 4 years. If you want to read more about Beau I did a search . Go to the 2nd page first and read Oct 2006. That was our first dental visit...

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/search.php?q=beau+is+going+to+the+dentist&nr=20&page=1

he really suffered a lot


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## tonyshuman (Jun 4, 2010)

I want to agree with all the stuff Angieluv said here. I wouldn't worry about a little snot, but if it occurs for more than one day in a row, it should be seen. I also think the urine stuff you were talking about when he stops eating is from dehydration. Most bunnies stop drinking when they stop eating too, and that can cause urinary problems. I saw your blog too--great pics! Glad he's doing ok lately!


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## MILU (Jun 5, 2010)

Thank you Claire and Maureen, I feel better knowing your opinion. He's been a happy boy lately. I know he'll pass through more "stuff" so I want him to be happy now. RO is helping a lot!


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## MILU (Jun 5, 2010)

Ouch, poor Beau! What a brave rabbit resisting for all that time. He was very special for sure! :bunnyangel:

Ah, thanks Claire for having read my bun's blog!


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## MILU (Jun 14, 2010)

Hmmmm... Milu has been "ok" lately, still eating (not 100% but still enough to be considered "alright"), but I've noticed his urine has been brownish in the last days... I don't know if this is something I should worry about. It's been a little more smelly than usual too. He drinks water on his own, not like after the dental procedure, when I had to syringe it or he wouldn't drink it.
He hasn't been taking any medicine and has been happy and naughty as usual when he's ok. 
About the nasal white mucus, I haven't seen any lately. His nose /mouth are always wet but it's clear stuff, not white. He hasn't been sneezing lately (at least not so bad that I've noticed)
Thanks a lot, again!


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## MILU (Jun 14, 2010)

I've made this video of MILU eating carrot tops tonight. If you turn up the volume, you can hear a sound (more at the end of the video) like "creek, creek, creek" (it gets louder when MILU comes closer to the mic, sniffing the camera). That's the sound os his teeth when he chews (not of food being chewed) - perhaps misaligned and that's why there's this noise?? I'm glad he's been eating anyway.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhsM5HBxB98[/ame]


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## Maureen Las (Jun 14, 2010)

Is Milu neutered? 
Has he had the dark urine before? (as I recall he did have dark urine at one time.) 

It Could be a bladder infection ; I would keep an eye on it. 
he is absolutely adorable in the video and looks really great; yes I can hear the tooth sound that he makes when he chews.


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## aurora369 (Jun 14, 2010)

To me, that sounds like normal eating to me. I have heard quite a few rabbits eat and make noises like that. I'm pretty sure I've heard that noise when eating hay and other hard/chewy

I'll have to listen to my rabbits eating something chewy like hay and see if any of my rabbits make that noise.

-Dawn


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## MILU (Jun 14, 2010)

Maureen, he's not neutered. He had this issue before (when he couldn't eat and I had to syringe food and water because of his dental problem). He got ok soon. The chewing noise appeared after the 1st dental procedure. I don't recall him making that sound before.

Dawn, if you think that sound is natural, that makes me feel better. He was chewing soft carrot tops, I thought it's strange that he made that sound, and that he never had it before his 1st dental procedure...


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## MILU (Jun 18, 2010)

I started giving MILU bottled water and his pee got normal again. Hopefully it was the quality of the water that made his pee dark. It was filtered, but who knows if that filtering was doing the job ok... I hope that was the problem.


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## MILU (Jun 30, 2010)

Just wondering if I should worry about this: MILU has always had some "lumps" under his chin. I don't know if they're supposed to be normal. He already had them when he did the x-ray. They can't be seen, not read, not too swollen, I can feel them by touching the place and "massaging" it. MILU doesn't like to be touched there much.
I've noticed that it's been wet lately. Not wet from mouth drool, or food/water. It's not too wet, just a tiny bit, enough for me to notice it's wet. When I pass my finger, it soon dries from the fingertip. I washed it some times, then I stopped washing to figure if the "wetness" would stop, and a little crust formed. 
*** The fur in this part of his chin has always been "harder". MILU uses his chin to "test" new food - he rubs his chin on food and then he knows if it's safe or not (well, that's what I figure, he always does that to new food or things to him). I don't know if this spot is supposed to be like this. 
Still I have the solid impression that the inner lumps in his chin are more evident than before, and that now there is wet stuff and crust that weren't there before.  

MILU had the lumps when since he went to the vets here for the 1st time, and whenever I asked them, they all always said "I don't know what that is". They say there's no abscess but I don't know what else this could be. Hopefully it won't have to do with the misalignment of the incisors, caused by the vets last time MILU visited them.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 1, 2010)

It seems to me that if the lumps were actually jaw abscesses that they would have grown very quickly. it is possible that these are some type of abscesses but not the typical ones that blow up over night and are hard. 
The crusty wetness under the chin is something familar to me; if he eats wet food ( like my Beau did ) then it is the food sticking to his chin. 

Are yousure that he is not drooling and the food is sticking to the saliva and drying which would indicate more problems in his mouth with his teeth.

I feel bad for you becauseI just cannot say 'take him to the vet" 

Wetness outside the mouth is definitely not normal.


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## Amy27 (Jul 1, 2010)

This may be totally off here, but I had a cat who had bumps under her chin. I had the vet look at it and he said it was blackheads. From rubbing her chin on stuff such as food and water bowels or whatever they decided to rub their chin on. However, when you looked at her bumps they looked a little black just like a black head a human would have. I would think if they were blackheads your vet would have known it though. Can you move the fur around a lump to see if there is any color there?


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## MILU (Jul 1, 2010)

Maureen, the vets all said "I don't know what that is", even with x-rays. 
I'm actually starting to fear them more than the illnesses themselves. The last time MILU saw the "best" vet ever, it was Randy and advice from all of you from RO that saved him from what the vet caused. Plus, last time we saw the dentist, he made something that misaligned the incisors that were aligned, and told me it seems like the whole jaw is misplaced, and he only filed the lower teeth, it was supposed to have been the simplest procedure done, as other times he filed lower and upper teeth. Isn't any savvy vet willing to move to Brazil? 

About drooling, sometimes MILU drools, sometimes not. He'll see the dentist soon again, but as he's still eating, I'm letting him gain some weight. I'm sure his chin was wet at least for 2 days when he wasn't drooling, and his mouth was dry. His nose has been wet lately, more than drool. 
It seems like the crust is the wet stuff gathered and crusting. Well, I hope it's food!

The lumps are not too hard and don't grow too fast. They've been there for some time. I wonder if they could be glands that got a little swollen and I'm worried about "nothing". I know my rabbit too well, I notice the smallest changes. He has some similar lumps in his back and other spots under his skin, but those never changed.

Amy: you've got a point! MILU rubs his chin in lots of stuff all the time. It's hard to examine MILU's chin but I'll try to see what's there. 

Thank you both for your input!


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## MILU (Aug 7, 2010)

I'm finally posting the pics of MILU's 4th dental procedure (performed in July). The upper pics are before, and the lower ones after he had his teeth filed. It's funny how MILU's incisors seemed misaligned (I even took a pic, which I posted on his blog), but in the dentist's pic they're ok. 

MILU has been doing well, he's not 100% but pretty good, no worries so far!


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## tonyshuman (Aug 8, 2010)

The teeth look good in the second pic! Thanks for sharing these pics with us. It really helps us understand this part of rabbit medicine.


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## MILU (Aug 23, 2010)

I'll always post the pics of MILU's dental procedures. I've been giving him more tree branches (I put them in front of MILU's face and only take them out of there after he gives a few bites a day at least, or he won't touch them). I also found out that he likes to eat rosemary  . I bought some fresh branches that eventually got dry and he likes them dry even better than fresh. I guess it must be good for his teeth. The last (4th) procedure was on July 06. I hope he doesn't have to have one every month anymore. I'll keep you posted about his situation, though, thanks!


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## tonyshuman (Aug 23, 2010)

That's good to hear! I hope the branches do the trick.


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## MILU (Sep 26, 2010)

hi again, MILU has been doing pretty well (he still scares me sometimes, but in the end he gets ok without major problems).. I hope all your bunnies are doing good too!!


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## MILU (Dec 5, 2010)

He's dying..... I was traveling and when I came back on Friday he was ok, sniffed my stuff, stayed in my room with me.... (but I didn't see him eating).

Yesterday he was weird. I noticed he didn't eat at all... I noticed some noise in his belly and thought it was just a stomachache or gas, which sometimes he has, but then he always gets better before the next morning. My mother told me to leave him alone and that maybe he was sick because I'm always around him and he wants to be alone. I don't think that was the problem.

Today he was weak, not yet recovered so I started worrying for real. I syringed water and food but it seemed to have a bad effect on him. He's just had spasms (convulsions?) kicking (while laying down) and finally got knocked unconscious. His eyes are open and he's stiff like a stuffed animal. However, I believe he's still alive. I don't feel any heartbeat or breathing because his chest is really stiff, but when my other bunny Fedorento died, his eyes kind of "faded", and MILU's eyes are still like the eyes of a bunny who's alive, they didn't fade. He's also not "cold", he's kind of warm still, although not too much. I wonder if he had something that caused him to get paralyzed, I have the impression that he's still alive. Please let me know if the body stiffness and absence of nostril movement mean that he died. He's such a good bunny that he waited for me to come back from my trip to say good-bye. Even if he's still alive, I guess there's not much to do besides taking him somewhere to put him to sleep, is there anything else I can do (considering our vets suck)? I'm keeping him warm and covered just in case. I don't want him to suffer any more. Hopefully there will be something I can do to bring him back and make him recover movement. He would turn 6 years old on January 19th.. (well, from the date when he came to my home. He was actually 6 already, as he was about 2 months old when he arrived into my life)
Thank you for everything!


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## MILU (Dec 5, 2010)

* he's been shedding. Maybe he had a hairball in his tummy??


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## MILU (Dec 5, 2010)

As I suspected, he's still alive! I put my ear in his chest and heard a very feeble sound of heartbeat or whatever that is. Very slow and very low, but there is something still alive in him! He's got his eyes open (one looks a little bad, the right one looks normal) and his whole body is stiff, but he's still alive! Any tips on how to proceed are more than welcome!!!!!!!! 
I'm keeping him warm, wrapped him in warm clothes. Is there anything I can do or I'll have to put him to sleep, given that he won't be able to eat at all???
:in tears:


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## MILU (Dec 5, 2010)

Maybe he had a stroke


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## Maureen Las (Dec 5, 2010)

Geez I am so sorry to hear this 

At this point I would guess that there is not much that you can do other than what you are doing. 

If you had an emergency vet I am sure that you would have taken him 

if you had access to a vet theywould want to give him sub q fluids but it sounds to me (sadly) as if he is leaving you. 
Hugs 
Maureen


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## MILU (Dec 5, 2010)

Hi Maureen 

Thanks for the response! MILU is still alive, I put my ear on his chest and there's some weird noise inside him, so he's still alive! I checked the web for "stroke first aid" and I put MILU laying down on his left side and with his head and shoulders a little lifted, hopefully it will help, although I got no idea what caused him the seizure. 
Do you think there's any chance he'd feel better and recover some time? I read that some rabbits have seizures and then recover. I was thinking of maybe putting him to sleep but I don't want to give up if there's a chance he'll be ok. 
He's such a trooper, he doesn't give up ever!!!! He's paralyzed and almost no heartbeat or breathing, but he's still "there" and still fighting! I don't want to give up if there's a chance he can recover. If there's nothing else to do, though..... well... then I'll take the facts. I just don't know if I should "minimize" his pain or not... I don't want to give up if he doesn't want to. Tough decision!


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## MILU (Dec 5, 2010)

I called a vet and he told me to put a mirror in front of his nose. There was no steam in the mirror. He told me to feel his heartbeat. I could feel no heartbeat, although I could feel "something" moving, I guess. He told me to scratch his cornea with my nail (ugh, that was tough!) - no response. He doesn't blink at all, he doesn't move his nostrils, chest or anything at all. According to the vet, I've been petting a dead bunny. 
:in tears: :rip:
I refuse to believe that, after so many times for 1 year in which my bunn had reasons enough to have passed, he made it, and now he suddenly died without no reason at all!!!
:nerves1 :bawl:
:cry4:
At least, if he "passed", he did it in MY hands, not at any unscrupulous "vet" here, or alone. He "passed" knowing that he was loved until his last breath, and he fought to stay but I realized it was too hard for him and I told him he could go where he had to, and do what he had to. I guess he did it. 
One thing still puzzles me: his eyes don't look like "dead". My other bunny had his eyes "fading" when he died. MILU's eyes are still like alive, they didn't fade at all. I'm hopeful that he'll get up and recover. I read that sometimes bunnies have seizures and some sort of coma and then they wake up. I hope that's the case.


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## hln917 (Dec 5, 2010)

Vivian~ I'm so sorry. :hug:


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## Maureen Las (Dec 5, 2010)

I'm really sorry also. 
you have been such a wonderful mom to him 
Hugs 
Maureen


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## MILU (Dec 5, 2010)

Thanks. I'm still hopeful though. I refuse to believe that he's gone without a reason.. maybe he's in a coma and will wake up tomorrow.


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## MILU (Dec 6, 2010)

He was really gone... 
But I still want to thank Rabbits Online and each one of you, your help was definitely crucial for giving my bunny 1 extra year of life, fighting many adversities. He was a happy bunny and we owe a lot to you!


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## Maureen Las (Dec 7, 2010)

I am so sorry  from the bottom of my heart. 

But now he is a bunny angel :cry1::kiss1::angel:and is free from all his physical problems.


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## MILU (Dec 7, 2010)

Do you think he can forgive me for not having been good enough for him? That's probably why he left me... 

If he's a bunny angel maybe he can... 

you're so nice Maureen, thanks!!! MILU loves you too!


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## Maureen Las (Dec 7, 2010)

*hotmaildeal wrote: *


> Do you think he can forgive me for not having been good enough for him? That's probably why he left me...
> 
> If he's a bunny angel maybe he can...



What!!!! :shock:


You were wonderful tohim !!!
Any bunny would be so lucky to have you


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## SnowyShiloh (Dec 7, 2010)

Oh, Vivian, I'm so sorry  Milu was a wonderful bunny. To remark on the eye thing, after Cinnabun died, his eyes looked lifeless. Tallulah's eyes still looked alive after she died. Skyler's eyes looked lifeless from when I found him near death and when he died an hour or so later. It's strange how it goes


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## Pipp (Dec 7, 2010)

Oh no! So very sorry. :sad: 

But MILU was almost a miracle bunny under your care, he bounced back so many times.  

He probably was just waiting for you to come home to say goodbye. 


sas :tears2:


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## Nela (Dec 7, 2010)

I'm so sorry


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## Nancy McClelland (Dec 7, 2010)

we're so sorry for your loss.


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## mistyjr (Dec 7, 2010)

So sorry for your loss.. It's the hardest to loose something that you love!


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## MILU (Dec 7, 2010)

Thank you everybody!! Your words give me strength and make me stronger. There's no way I can thank you all for the priceless support you gave me so many times! I owe a lot to you! MILU stayed with me for almost 1 more year due to your help, and, even now, I'm sure he knows how you've all been thinking of him. Thank you so much!!!!!


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## MILU (Dec 7, 2010)

@ Shiloh - Thanks for letting me know about how your bunnies eyes looked like. At least I can make sure that he was really gone since the moment he got "paralyzed"...


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## Amy27 (Dec 7, 2010)

I am so sorry Vivian. Milu was such a good bunny and you were a great bunny mom. He was lucky to have you as his mom.


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## the fluffies (Dec 8, 2010)

I'm so sorry for ur loss 

-nerq-


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## MILU (Dec 8, 2010)

Thank you for the messages! Your bunnies are really beautiful! 

@ Sas - you knew MILU so well!!!


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## tonyshuman (Dec 10, 2010)

I am so sorry to hear Milu has passed, Vivian. You fought really hard for him and gave him such great care. I know he appreciated the love and care you gave him. If he had been in any other person's hands, I think, he would not have done as well as he did with you. Binky free, sweet Milu.


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## MILU (Dec 11, 2010)

Thank you so much, Claire!! You were one of the people who really helped MILU a lot here! We owe a lot to you! By the way, I was in Madison for 9 days by Halloween. Is there a rabbit shelter there? If so, I'd love to visit it when i'm back to Madison.


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## MILU (Jan 19, 2011)

Today - Jan 19th - would be MILU's 6th b-day, counting the day he came to my home... MILU learned things from me so well he's "copying" me. I never attend my own b-day parties, and he's doing the same...


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## tonyshuman (Jan 20, 2011)

Thinking of Milu on this day. 5 years of a very special bunny.


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## MILU (Jan 20, 2011)

Thanks Claire! He was already 6 when he "left". Yesterday was only the b-day counting from when he got to my home. He was very special indeed, like all other pets and animals in the world!


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## Nancy McClelland (Jan 20, 2011)

ray: So sorry


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## MILU (Feb 13, 2011)

Thank you for the comment


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