# What Is Happening Here? - Help with kits



## Mrr (Jun 24, 2016)

My boyfriend and I bought a 8-9 month old Flemish Giant doe last month from a friend of ours. We were told she had been bred just before we picked her up, and therefore assumed she was pregnant (she is took skittish to attempt palpating). Well now we're on day 31 and nothing has happened. We put a nesting box in with her on day 29, and she has dug through it but that's it. Today after work I checked in on her and found a pile of fur underneath her hutch (there is a small hole in the corner where it fell through). I know they pull their fur before kindling.. is it possible that she's still pregnant? It's day 31 so I would assume she should of had them already. Is there any other reason she would be pulling chunks of fur out?


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## Mrr (Jun 25, 2016)

Okay.. I feel silly. I came outside and found her with 6 kits this morning. Unfortunately, 4 of them crawled out of the nest (she made one on top of the hole in her hutch instead of the nesting box I had given her) and 1 of them ended up dying. The rest I got to in time and put back in the nest, which I moved into the nesting box to prevent any more escapees. But it looks like I have 5 Flemish Giant kits now!

This is my first litter though, is anyone able to give me some advice? I've done lots of research but you can never have enough.


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## Watermelons (Jun 25, 2016)

Hopefully Majorv or another one of our breeders will pop by and give you some advice.
Did you have any questions in particular now that the kits are here?
First time moms can definitely be a bit silly. Make sure shes feeding them and they have nice full bellies.


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## Mrr (Jun 25, 2016)

I do have one question that's really been bugging me. So I filled her nest box with shavings and hay, then put a bunch of grass in the hutch for her to eat - along with her pellets. Well the silly doe, she ate all of the hay in the box and then made a nest with the grass! I put the nest that she made into the box, and put the bunnies inside where they burrowed in. But when I checked on the bunnies a few hours later, some of them were still pretty cold. I covered the kits with some extra shavings and straw, and as much of the extra fur as I could, but I'm really worried that the grass nest is keeping them too cool. Should I take the whole nest out and replace it with hay or should I avoid tampering and leave them be? 

Also, one of the kits seems to be acting kind of crazy.. the rest are pretty quiet, but this one flails around like crazy. It's actually hard to even hold it because it's always swinging it's head around erratically. Is there something wrong? I can try to get a video if need be


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## thumpingBerry (Jun 25, 2016)

I am NOT an experienced breeder, but have a few suggestions:

If the babies are cold, warm them up by holding them or putting them in a warm towel or cloth. The babies will burrow around in the nest and seem to do a great job keeping themselves warm. Did you put the pulled fur in the nest? That will help keep them warm. I would put shavings at the bottom of the nestbox, then straw/hay, and the rest of the nesting material on top.

The baby acting erratically: Is it only when you are holding it? Kits will want to nurse when they are touched and can get jumpy and act crazy. Those that I have had calm down quickly though when held.

I have had 4 litters now. One doe used the nesting box and had no issues (first time mom). One doe kept digging stuff out of the nesting box but ultimately used the nesting box (thought to be first time mom). Two other does refused to use the nesting box given and built nests inside the cage (both first time moms).


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## Mrr (Jun 26, 2016)

So you think it's okay to leave the grass in there? My boyfriend thinks it will be okay, but I just worry about it being so much cooler and the possibility of it rotting perhaps. When I put the nest box in it had shavings on the bottom and hay on top, so there are still shavings at the bottom there. I just added more on top because I was so worried about how cold they would get. I put all the fur back in too, and covered any cold ones extra. When I came back this evening most were warm except one. I'm really worried I'll lose a few of them overnight tonight though. 

As for the one acting strange, he was doing it inside the nest before I picked him up, and wouldn't stop. I almost dropped the little guy a couple times because of how wildly he was jumping/flailing about. Maybe you're right and it's just hungry? Either way, it seems a little weird.

I've heard a bit about first time mom's being a bit silly and confused.. is it normal to lose quite a few during a first litter? I've only lost.one so far, but with the grass nest and seemingly cold babies and her stepping on them all the time, I worry for this litter.


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## thumpingBerry (Jun 26, 2016)

I'm not sure on the grass. I would assume it would dry out quickly and be ok. Is the mom feeding the babies? Their bellies should be full looking.

From what I've read on the internet, first time moms often lose one or more of the babies, if not the entire litter. If they aren't feeding (or feeding enough) the babies will need help to survive (either "force" feeding from the mom or hand raising).

Hopefully one of the breeders on here will reply and help you.

The babies I've had often make some noise as well as jumping around when they they are touched or disturbed. I have two first time moms with 3 day old babies. One is only 5 1/2 months old (she is about 6 pounds) and she had NINE (one was dead when found). The other is about a year old (she is about 5 pounds) and she had four (but two were dead when found, and a third had one of it's back feet half bitten off). Two of the younger mom's babies were given (fostered) to the year old mom (making a group of 4 babies and then 6 babies). Both litters seem to be doing ok although they don't seem to be as full as I would like to see, so I am worried about these babies. The group of 4 is especially "jumpy" and the babies hard to handle as they want to nurse. Both of these moms are the ones that made nests in the cage. The year old mom still has her nest in the cage. The younger mom I put the babies in a nestbox as she was running around the cage and stepping on them. She has since nursed her babies in the nestbox.


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## JBun (Jun 26, 2016)

I would take the fresh grass out. I would be concerned about the possibility of it getting moldy then the mother or babies eventually eating it, which could prove deadly to them. Save all the fur, remove the fresh grass and replace with hay. Make a hollow in the hay at the back of the nest box, replace the fur and the babies. Then provide plenty of hay outside of the nestbox for mom to eat. She is eating the nestbox hay because she is hungry. If you haven't already and mom is being fed limited pelleted feed amounts, you need to gradually start increasing her pellets over the next week so that she is getting unlimited pellet amounts or close to, but also make sure she is getting unlimited hay and eating a good pile of it in a day as well. Mother rabbits need tons of energy and usually end up needing about 3 times their normal amount of food at least.

If any of the babies are clearly cold to the touch, you need to take active measures to help warm them up. You can hold them against your skin and use your body heat or some sort of warm pack. You need to be careful about not allowing them to overheat though, so carefully monitor them as they warm back up. Once back in the nest, as long as they have plenty of moms fur they can burrow under and all stay close together, that will continue to keep them warm.

The baby that seems to be flailing about, has it had a plump belly from being fed or is it starting to look skinny with wrinkly skin? If it missed being fed, it would be starting to be a bit frantic and feeling starved. If so and especially if it is looking wrinkly and dehydrated and the other babies aren't, you can try holding mom on your lap and while carefully holding mom still, bring baby up underneath to allow it to nurse. It works better if you have someone to help as you have to be careful so mom doesn't injure the baby trying to get away.

You need to make sure mom is feeding them at least once a day. They should have very full bellies at some point in the day if she is. If she doesn't feed them within the first 24-36 hours, you may need to step in to help. If it gets too close to 48 hours without being fed, they will start to get too weak to nurse.

If mom is disturbing the nest too much and you feel she is putting the babies at risk of being injured or stomped on, you can as a last resort, remove the nest box and only return it to her twice a day in the mornings and evenings to let her nurse them. I would only do this though, if I thought the babies were going to be hurt or even killed by mom if I left them in with her.

I covered some mom and baby care in this old thread if you want to take a look. It also has a picture of what a full belly will look like.
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/showthread.php?p=1055673#post1055673
And this link has some helpful tips as well.
http://flashsplace.webs.com/accidentallitters.htm


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## Mrr (Jun 26, 2016)

Thank you guys. I spent the night trying to keep the kits warm, unfortunately 3 more died this morning so now I am down to two - who managed to stay quite warm and were pretty feisty when I disturbed them. This morning when I read your posts, I changed the nest box materials and discovered that the shavings underneath everything were damp and cold, which is likely what kept them from keeping warm. I'm wondering if that is a result of the fresh grass that the doe used? I ran to the feed store this morning though and grabbed a bag of fresh shavings, and my boyfriend and I picked out all of the fur, dumped the old shavings and grass, and made a new nest out of straw, shavings and the fur. I placed the two remaining kits in and they burrowed right in. When I checked them an hour ago they were nice and toasty warm and their bellies were plump and full looking (thank you for the reference picture JBun!)

Also, I had been upping the does food for the past week as I had been noticing she was eating all of her hay within an hour or two. I knew she needed more, I just didn't realize she needed THAT much more. My boyfriend and I are coordinating on extra feedings to keep her supplied with all the food she needs.

Either way, I feel pretty stupid that we managed to lose 2/3's of our first litter. I know that people say its not unusual to have sizable losses on the first litter, but I didn't really expect it to happen. I thought I was more prepared then this :embarrassed:

As a sidenote.. We have two other does (New Zealand Whites) that are about 5 months old. My boyfriend attempted to put them with our buck yesterday while I was out, and they both fought with him when he tried. I told him that they are still a bit too young to try and breed, but his research told him differently (he read 4.5-5 months from AZrabbits.com) and that's why he decided to try. When I was researching it said 6 months though. Could anyone tell me the proper age to start trying to put them together? Some websites say 4.5-5, some 6, and some even older.. Some say that if you wait past 6 it can cause issues with breeding.. What is the right way to do this? Will our does ever stop trying to fight him?


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## Mrr (Jun 27, 2016)

Here are the two that are left now


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## majorv (Jun 27, 2016)

I would not try to breed the does until they're 6 months old. If you force breeding when they are young you could end up with a litter of dead kits. We used to breed Californians and actually waited until they were about 7 months.

As to the litter you have now, I know it's frustrating dealing with first timers and their antics. Hay and fur are the best insulators for keeping kits warm. Fur under them and over them will keep them warm even in cold weather. Mom also needs unlimited pellets and more protein while nursing.


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## ladysown (Jun 27, 2016)

rabbits can be bred when they are READY to be bred. that can be 4 months, or it can be 7 months. Rabbit attitude makes a difference. Checking their vent helps too. If they are 75% of their adult weight they are big enough to breed, but watching them change from young bunny attitude to older rabbit attitude is more indicative of readiness.

if they were actively fighting him though I'd be looking at genders to make sure they are what you think they are.
A young does typical response is flight (racing in circles around the cage) or to sit quiet and keep her butt end flat to the floor.


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## Mrr (Jun 27, 2016)

The person we bought them from said they were female but we just took her word for it.. Maybe that was our bad. Would our buck still be trying to mount them if they were male though? When we try to put them together he stomps around and immediately tries to go to work. Typically they run away a bit and then fight if he persists. The last time we put one of them in with him he jumped on them right away and it was an instant scrap.. Our buck ran and hid in a hidey hole and wouldn't come out. He was uninjured, but they pulled out a bit of hair. 

As for the kits, I checked them again this morning and everyone is nice and warm! It helps that today is so hot out too. One question though.. The pellets that we currently have for mom are 16% protein, do we need to up her to 18%?


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## majorv (Jun 27, 2016)

You need to turn them over and make sure they are females before you try again. Yes, a buck may mount another buck for dominance, or they'll fight.

We feed our does 16% protein pellets, but I will also add just a little bit of calf manna to their bowl for the first week or so after kindling. It's high in protein, rabbits love it and it's said to help kickstart milk production.


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## Mrr (Jun 28, 2016)

Thank you! Is calf manna something I could find at a local feed store? I just got back in from checking the kits and their bellies are nice and plump again.. looks like mom is feeding them well. I'm surprised at how much fur they have after just two days though!

We checked tonight, and both are females. I'm worried that they won't grow out of this fighting him thing, and that they'll end up hurting him. Do they tend to calm down when they're ready?


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## majorv (Jun 28, 2016)

When we have an uncooperative doe we will set them up in a cage right next to a buck or even switch cages with the buck. If they wont cooperate, then wait a few days and try again, but don't let them attack the buck. Like ladysown suggested, check their vent for color. It's one indicator they're in the mood. Some breeders say they are more receptive during a full moon. Your last resort is table breeding.


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