# Pulling/chewing fur out of chest and "fuzzy butt"



## mimodok (Jul 16, 2009)

Hi I'm new to the forum. I love my bunny (Peter) very much and I've come here because I don't know how else I can help him. I've put a link below to a short video so you can see his chest. I tried to take pictures but they didn't come out very well.

http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/mimodok/?action=view&current=100_2712.flv

*Location:* Wilmington, NC

*Description:* I believe he's a year old now, maybe a month or so short of a year old. (I don't know his breed or his weight). I just noticed: if you look at the banner at the very top of the website with all the rabbits on it, Peter looks just like the gray rabbit above the black and white rabbit on the farthest right.

*Spayed/Neutered:* Male rabbit that has not been neutered

*Notes on fecal and urinary output:* Completely normal. I've seen him pee and poop more than once today.

*Has it been to the vet or has it been sick before?* Yes to both questions. I've taken him to my vet once before for the same symptoms he has now. I can't recall the doctorâs name or the name of her practice at the moment but I can find out if it'd be helpful. She says that she's qualified to do exotic animals such as rabbits and guinea pigs (and other species, I'm sure). 

*About first vet visit:* When I broughtPeter in she was very thorough. She weighed him, checked his ears, felt him all over, and observed that he wasn't neutered. She asked about his diet and reminded me to make sure he always had hay available and to call her immediately if his poops looked strange or wet. She seemed very knowledgeable and was very nice, and Peter wasn't scared at all.

*Symptoms that prompted the vet visit: *She inspected the bald spot on his chest. He had what looked like a cut starting from his chest and going down his arm and a similar cut was starting on his other arm. It was scabbed over and the skin around it looked red and irritated and dry. It looked as if it had bled at some point. She took a couple pieces of scotch tape and dabbed at the scabbed area and the bald skin. She looked at the "tape samples" under a microscope and said that she couldn't see any mites. She prescribed some cherry flavored antibiotics to be given to him twice a day for 7 days. I don'tremember the name of the antibiotics used but she told me about how you have to be careful about administering antibiotics to rabbits because it could kill the flora in their bodies. It was really hard to get Peter to take the antibiotics but I finished the treatment and the sores quickly healed.

Peter has only been to the vet once. This problem has been recurring (although he hasn't had actual sores since his treatment) for... maybe 4 months since his first vet visit. He has not been to the vet again since his first visit. Prior to his visit the problem had been going on for about a month or two. I had thought he was pulling out his fur as a mating behavior, although I couldn't understand why he would be doing that. When the sores showed up I took him to the vet. 

*Diet:* Ecotrition rabbit food. Sometimes myself or my Dad will buy different brands. We try to get the "colorful" food - with those colored nuggets he likes, and dried carrot, various seeds, etc. Always has Timothy hay. I have vitamins I could put in his water. I did so when he was growing but now he's grown and he was getting fat soI stopped. He _loves _bananas. But I don't give it to him often and I don't give him very much (about a 3/4 inch-thick slice). I also give him leafy greens when we have some. Green leaf lettuce, romaine lettuce, parsley, spinach (although he doesn't really like the spinach). I've offered him bits of apple and carrot and even grapes and blueberries bit he'll only taste them.

*Movement:* He hops around his cage, stretches and yawns, shakes his head and runs around, kicks his feet, stands up and sniffs around, dramatically plops down when he's tired. He seems like a very happy and active little bunny. I let him out to play more than once a week. Myself and/or my sister supervise him the entire time and make sure he can't get to any wires, etc. When we let him out to play we often let Trixy out also. She's a guinea pig who's in love with Peter. He humors her but he thinks she's boring.

*Plants, chocolate, other within reach?* Not that I can see.

*Outdoors:* Never. I know that my Dad uses chemicals in our yards and I don't want him to get fleas or mites or somethingThere is a window next to his cage which I open a crack while I'm in the room on _really_ nice days. I do try and open the blinds when it's not too sunny so he can look outside.

I saw in someone's post that their bunny had what they described as "fuzzy butt." That was a good description of what Peter also has, although it's not my main concern. (fuzzy butt: tufts of hair sticking out that can easily be pulled out when lightly tugged - doesn't bother rabbit). I also looked in the index and the description of mites is consistent with the symptoms Peter is showing.

*The symptoms he has now: *Bare patch on his chest. I often catch him licking and chewing there and where his chest meets his arm - wherever he can reach on his chest from shoulder to shoulder. The skin looks red around the edges. "Fuzzy butt."

*What I've tried:* Took him to the vet about 4 months ago. Immediately after the visit I started and finished a 7-day treatment of antibiotics. I've revolutioned him once before (which cleared it up). The symptoms kept coming back so I revolutioned him again last month and this month. At the end of last month it worsened which is why I treated him again this month. All of the cats and dogs that live in my house are revolutioned regularly. The guinea pig that he plays with has also been revolutioned for the last two months. I don't pet the cute baby bunnies and guinea pigs when I go to the pet store for fear of transferring anything to Peter and Trixy.

*Bedding: *Normally Aspen shavings with corn litter in his potty corner. In the past I've used that recycled paper they sell in pet shops that they always recommend but it's really expensive. I just cleaned his cage two days ago and I think my Dad bought Cedar shavings by mistake. I know that Cedar is bad but it's all I had. I figure one or two bedding changes won't kill them - then I'll go back to Aspen and remind my Dad about buying Cedar shavings. It could be my imagination, but I think his chest was clearer when I used the recycled paper... maybe he's allergic to shavings. But that recycled paper is too expensive. If you think he's allergic to shavings, is there something else I could use as bedding? I don't want to use corn litter in his whole cage - just his corner. I thinkcorn litter isa little pricey too, and it's messy when he kicks around in his cage.

*Conclusion:* Revolution doesn't seem to be working. Antibiotics didn't really clear it up. Vet didn't see mites but she approved of me using revolution. He _really_ likes to be scratched, maybe he's itchy? His cage is pretty big, the biggest cage I can get without building one. I don't think he's bored or anxious; he seems to keep himself busy and happy. I guess it could be mating behavior...Trixy is a girl but she's a guinea pig...

Sorry about the long post. Thank you for reading it and for your help, it's much appreciated.


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## Flashy (Jul 16, 2009)

Welcome to the forum 

First off, Peter is beautiful  He looks like a mini rex, but not sure about his colour from the video. I loved his effort at the dead bunny flop at the end 

Ok, I think a good place to start would be blood tests to see if there is an internal cause or an obvious answer to it.

Another possibility is that it is behavioural and he is doing this to himself for some reason. Now, the reason could be medical (like he might know something is going on inside him or he might be in pain) or the reason could be due to circumstances. By that I mean lack of stimulation, lack of bunny friend, lack of space. In terms of that I noticed his cage has minimal toys in, so it might be worth trying to give him more things to stimulate himself with and changing them regularly. Some bunnies need a bunny friend. you're right in that pigs and buns should not plaay together. There are the behavioural things but rabbits carry an illness called Bordatella which generally does not affect them but can be fatal to pigs. Maybe you could look for a friend of the same species for them both? His cage looks quite small in that he can't get up to a full run in it. It could be a better size for a smaller animal, but over here in the UK we recommend 6ft cages. I think yours is 4.5ft by 2ft maybe? How often and for how long does he get out each day?

Another possibility is that because he is so large he is trying to clean himself elsewhere but can't reach it so all he can reach is himself.

On a side note, the food with the colourful bits in is not a very healthy food for him. Ideally he needs to lose some weight, and he could probably do with having a better quality pellet (and minimal amounts of it) and unlimited hay to help him do that. Someone from the US might be able to suggest some good brands of food that you could try him with.

I do think though, a good place to start is with blood tests and also making some adjustments to his life style.


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## 12354somebunny (Jul 16, 2009)

In my rabbit's case, it was a behavioral issue. He was doing the same thing, pulling hair out from his chest area. At one point, his entire chest was bare. Brought him to the vet for a check up, but he didn't have any parasites on him.

My rabbit was living alone in a 3ft x 6ft play pen with lots of toys inside for him. Some RO members suggested that he may be bored, despite all that. So I started bringing him into my bedroom at night and let him roam around the entire room. In the morning, I'll put him back into his play pen before leaving for work. That did the trick, he stopped pulling his fur soon after I started bringing him into my bedroom. 

I hope you find something that works for Peter


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## anneq (Jul 16, 2009)

Heya Christina -

I'm sorry about the troubles you're having with Peter..my first thought would've been mites (or possibly an allergic reaction to the bites, but since the vet didn't find evidence of that..) BTW he's a beautiful rabbit.

I'm going to give you a list of some pellets that are considered to be good quality and places to get good quality hay (buying local cut hay is great if you have the storage and the hay is top quality horse-hay).

Neutering might also make him more comfortable and head off any behavior issues that can arise. My local vet performs a neutering for $75.00.

I will also list a site to buy Diatomaceous Earth. I use this to worm my rabbits and it can also be rubbed in their fur if mites/fleas are suspected. It doesn't work chemically, but mechanically, therefore there is no danger of toxicity. This is food-grade DE, not the heat-treated type that is used for swimming pools (that is very toxic).

Hopefully Randy will drop by and give you some advice as to what he think the problem(s) might be and appropriate treatment.

Links:

SweetMeadow Farms (always had good service and prices with these people).

http://www.sweetmeadowfarm.com/


BunnyBytes: (for Oxbow Bunny Basic 15/23 and Oxbow Bunny Basic T)

http://www.bunnybytes.com/cgi-bin/start.cgi

Southern Agriculture (Purina Advanced Nutrition Show Formula ) this is what I'm currently feeding my buns, and they seem to be doing very well on it). 


HAY:

Kleenmama's Hayloft (good hay and good prices and service)

http://www.kmshayloft.com/catalog/index.php?osCsid=1bffb7ab1e5734869d031200f2be6859

SweetMeadow Farms (good quality and very good service)

http://www.sweetmeadowfarm.com/

FarmerDaves Hay (haven't used this myself, but know a couple people who have and they are very happy with his product).

http://www.farmerdave.biz/servlet/StoreFront


Diatomaceous Earth website for information, dosage, facts & a couple places it can be ordered through:

http://wolfcreekranch1.tripod.com/defaq.html

This is the dealer I order through (good service, good price)

https://www.earthworkshealth.com/


Sorry if it's such a long post, and I wish you well with your Peter - please keep us updated on his condition (and any more pics would be MORE than welcome, lol)
class="ListPricewoSale"


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## Maureen Las (Jul 16, 2009)

Revolution is oftenused for fur mites . believe memitesoften do not show up under the microscope when a skin scraping is done. 
it sounds as if he had a secondary infecton relatd to the mites? and scratching 

I read your intro rather swiftly so I need to go back over itagain more thoroughly , however, there are physicians here who would use a 3 week course of injectable ivermectin 1 injection per week. 
he has had a lot of chemicals so for now I think we should continue to just investigate this. 
I think that your vet sounds great and I do think revolution may be the most current treatment although I have seen ivermectin injections work well. 

I will reread the post and post more later


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## tonyshuman (Jul 16, 2009)

Thanks for all the information and the video. It really helps! He is really beautiful, and I love the bunny flop! The butt tufts of fur sound totally normal for a rex (and some non-rex bunnies too) so don't worry about those.

I have a few ideas. One is self mutilation from boredom. It may be good to give him some toys to play with in there, and perhaps additional run time.

I also was thinking of obesity. Can he reach his rear end? I knew of a very obese bunny (much more than your Peter, who is a bit chunky though) who could not reach his rear end for the life of him because of his chest fat (called a dewlap--most commonly seen in female bunnies). He would try to eat his cecal poos, which are the ones they're supposed to eat--the mushy ones, and instead he would end up chewing on his chest fur and dewlap because he just couldn't reach, the fat was in the way. This may be what's going on with Peter.

Also, it could be a parasite or infection--my first thought is ringworm from the shape of the wound. That's a fungal infection. I think the vet should do a skin scraping, not just a tape sampling--in a scraping, they actually scrape off a bit of the skin to check for parasites under a microscope. Just using tape won't do the trick, and as angieluv said, you often don't even see mites in a skin scraping. I don't know if you can see ringworm in a scraping, but I seem to remember that it can be seen under UV light. I know rabbits can get ringworm, and they can give it to people too. I don't know what the treatment is for ringworm in rabbits-perhaps oral or injectible ivermectin, or a topical cream.

Another thing: are you 100% sure Peter is a boy? At his age, it should be pretty obvious (there would be visible testicles). Females commonly pull out fur in false pregnancies. It's a long shot, but it's possible. There are also hermaphroditic rabbits that have both external testicles and internal uterine horns. I don't know if they go through false pregnancies, but it's possible.

A few things: corncob bedding isn't really good for rabbits as they can eat it and it will clog up their intestines. I like to use wood stove pellets made from kiln dried pine shavings. They're about $5 for 40 lbs, so way cheaper than the paper pellets. You could also save money by putting a towel or blanket in his bed box, and just putting the litter in the corner of the pen that he uses as a bathroom. They also make litterboxes that fit exactly in the corner, so he might like that better.

The pellets aren't very good, and he shouldn't have that many. The pellets with colorful bits or seeds in them aren't good for rabbits. Oxbow, Sweet Meadow, and American Pet Diner are top of the line pellets, and he should have a timothy-hay based pellet at his age. Another one that is ok is Kaytee Timothy Complete. I also would consider feeding Purina Hi-Fiber Lab Diet if you can find it--it's alfalfa based but high in fiber and low in protein, and it's what they give the adult bunnies at the shelter--a very economical choice. He should probably get no more than 1/4 c of pellets each day. Giving him a better pellet and less of it will help him with his weight. 

Hay: My guys each eat twice that amount of hay each day. It may be cheaper to get it from a horse farmer and still give him a high-quality hay.

Also, we're not supposed to tell you it's ok to put a rabbit and a GP together, but as long as you're sure the rabbit's not going to thump the GP's back and break his spine it's fine, and if the rabbit gets an upper respiratory infection you have to separate them (rabbits carry pasturella which causes URIs in them but death in GPs). It sounds like they're good buddies and enjoy each other's company, and that's fine.


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## mimodok (Jul 16, 2009)

*Cage:* When I first got Peter he was in a Super Pet Extra-Large My First Home which is 40"L X 18"W X 20"H. I upgraded to the Prevue Jumbo Cage several months ago and it is 47"L x 22"D x 37"H with a 6.5" deep plastic pan. I know that his cage isn't as large as it should be but it's the largest one I can buy (believe me I looked) without building one out of cavy cubes. I considered doing this but it would be difficult to clean/build and I don't think he'd be safe from my two Yorkshire terriers and five indoor cats. I also can't let him out unsupervised because he wouldn't be safe from the animals, plus we keep fish tanks which have electrical cords everywhere. He has room in his cage to stretch, stand, and run around a little. But you're right, he can't get up to a full run.

*Stimulation:* He has some wooden blocks that are attached to the inside of his cage but he doesn't chew or play with them. Sometimes he'll knock them around to make noise but that's it. I also give him empty toilet paper and paper towel rolls which he chews up and tosses around. I've tried to give him bark chews before but he wasn't interested. I gave him a wooden ball thing with walnut halves inside once. But it was five dollars and it was gone the next morning. I used to put a tiny stuffed toy in there which he would toss around, but it just got soiled. I tried to get him a shelf too but he wouldn't use it or even go under it. He used to have an igloo but he was eating the plastic and he wouldn't go inside, he'd just sit on top and he was starting to not fit up there. I talk to him and pethim a lot, and I try and open the blinds of the windows next to his cage.

I let him out at least twice a week for about an hour at a time. I know that that isn't enough. I can't get him a rabbit friend. Even if I could his cage is too small as it is. My youngest sister has a rabbit (I think it's a dwarf Rex,and I know they're not from the same litter) but they DO NOT get along.

*Diet:* I talked to James Rollens last night by private message and we talked about his diet. He told me what I should look for in rabbit food brands and to stop changing brands. So I'll pick a good one and stick to it. Right now he always has Timothy hay available which I get from the pet store. My family owns two horses which we board in Hampstead, NC. If it would really help I think I can get some locally grown Timothy hay.

*Neutering:* My vet says that she feels confident enough to neuter him but that she lacks a lot of experience. She said if I didn't feel comfortable with her doing it she could give me some names of other vets with more experience. I like Peter's personality and he doesn't hump things or smell that bad...and I don't want anything to go wrong in surgery. I'd like to consider neutering as a last resort.

*Parasites:* My mom administered Revolution to Peter just like she does with our dogs and cats: between the shoulders where they can't lick it off. I'll look at the link you gave to Diatomaceous Earth. Do you think he has something that the Revolution hasn't treated? I'd link to think we can eliminate parasites as a possibility to help narrow things down. But I could be very wrong.

*Go to the vet?* I'm afraid that if I take him back to the vet she'll say that the antibiotics worked last time and prescribe them again. If he needs antibiotics that's okay, but I hated having to force him to take them. The vet seemed to genuinely care though and I'm sure that if I asked for a blood test she would do so. She seems to really try and work with me, asking my opinions, etc. Should I take Peter to the vet and ask for a blood test? If so, should I ask anything else? Should I wait and see if making some changes works? Money isn't an issue. I should be able to get him whatevercare he needs.

*Changes:* Peter has almost eaten this bag of Ecotrition. When he's about to run out I'll go to the pet stores and look at each brand before choosing one to stick to. I used to give Peter rabbit vitamins in his water while he was growing. But he stopped growing and started to get fat so I stopped. I've realized that that was stupid of me. I mean, I take vitamins and they don't make me fat. So I put some vitamins in his water last night. I also gave him a bark chew although he wouldn't play with it. My sister supervised him playing for an hour or so today. His windows are open so he can look outside.

I know Peter is a little overweight. He actually used to be bigger. After I noticed his weight gain I started letting him out more and encouraging him to run around. So he has lost a little weight but I know that he should lose a little more.

I didn't know that rabbits could carry diseases that could kill guinea pigs. If Peter was a carrier, wouldn't Trixy have gotten sick by now though? I haven't been letting them play together lately but their cages are still next to each other. Trixy used to be bored and would chew the bars on her cage CONSTANTLY. After we put their cages next to each other it stopped. We later upgraded Trixy's cage to the same one that Peter is currently in. She used to be in the same old Super Pet 40"L X 18"W X 20"H one that Peter started in. Now that she's in a bigger cage, it may be safe to separate them now. Do you think it's ok to keep their cages side-by-side or should I separate them?

Could you suggest some durable toys he might like? Are the Aspen shavings ok to use? Is there another uncostly bedding I could use? Are there any other changes I should make?

Thanks again!

*More pictures:*







This was taken three days aftermy Mom and sisters brought him home. My guinea pig had died about afew months previously and I had decided not to get another small animal because I knewI would be starting college soon. MyMomhad taken my youngest sister to the pet store to buy her a baby rabbit and while they were there they decided to bring home Peter for me. I was so surprised and I fell in love with himimmediately. I hadn't realized how much I missed having a little furry baby. You can sort of see how small his original cage was in this picture.






All of my attempts to get him to use a litter box have turned into beds...






Here you can see how he fits in his current cage. I took this photo yesterdayjust before he stretched and yawned.


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## tonyshuman (Jul 16, 2009)

I think the cage is ok, but he should have at least an hour outside of it each day. Aspen is fine, but I prefer the wood stove pellets because they are better at absorbing smell. They are also very cheap. They can be used as horse stall bedding as well, and you can find them at Tractor Supply Co, farm-oriented pet stores, and hardware stores (some).

For the food, it would be best to get new food now and do the change over 2 weeks at least. You need to mix them together with increasing amounts of the new food until you're only feeding new food. Just switching immediately can make his GI tract get upset. Once you've switched brands, you can cut down to a more normal ration for his weight. I think eating more hay would be good for him, weight-wise and for something to do all day, so cutting down pellets should help.

I would ask the vet about ringworm if you go see him again. It sounds like he has something causing the ring of hair loss, and then he had a bacterial infection on top of that. The bacterial infection was treated, but the underlying cause (ringworm, self mutilation) wasn't treated. Revolution would treat mites, but I think the usual protocol is two doses--one to kill the adult mites, then a second one later to kill those that were eggs (correct me if I'm wrong). It wouldn't do anything to ringworm.

As for toys, stuffed animals are very easily washed, and the point of many toys is to make noise. Some bunnies just like to make noise, so bells and rattles are a big favorite. Hard plastic balls are good too, and they're harder to chew on. You could give him a cardboard top over his litter pan for him to hang out in--that might make him less anxious (if it's self mutilation from anxiety/boredom). Many rabbits really like to have somewhere to hide. 

I like the hanging wood toys, including those in with parrot toys. Anything that's just wood and cloth/rope (non-leather) is fine. I also have some rabbit chew toys that are shaped like carrots and attach to the bars on the side of the cage--they are sturdy and enjoyed.

Those rabbit vitamins aren't needed, if he's on a good pellet and gets lots of hay. A variety of hay might help as well, such as adding orchard grass or oat hay. 

Don't worry about the guinea pig--it's fine that they're buddies. I would even let them live together if you had a big enough cage and you were sure you could trust Peter to be gentle with him. As for the pasturella thing, I'd just keep an eye on him and make sure if the GP gets an URI he goes to the vet ASAP. Being together might make him less bored, too.

He really is adorable, and I can tell that you care a lot about him. I do think having more time out of the cage would help, along with some sturdy toys, a pellet change, a hidey box, and considering ringworm. For reference, the bunnies that I help with at the shelter get cages about that size and get 30min-1hr outside of them a day. That's not quite enough for them, but they also eat hay constantly as they get a TON, have hidey boxes, and have a few toys. They do ok.


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## mimodok (Jul 16, 2009)

It's good to know that the butt tufts are nothing to worry about. He can't reach his rear end. It's sounding more and more like this is leading to a vet visit (which is fine, lol). I could ask her to do a scraping and take a blood test. I know what ringworm looks like and now that you mention it, that could be what he has. And he's obviously a boy. He's got two cute pink testicles (sorry but they are kind of cute :blushan. It's possible he's a hermaphroditic rabbit although I don't know how one would check for that. I didn't know corncob bedding was bad...and my Dad just bought a huge bag that's ashigh as my waist. We used to use clay bedding but I learned that that was bad so we switched to corn. I don't want to waist that huge bag...what should I do with it? Is it safe to finish the bag and then stop buying it? The next timeI go to the pet store I'll see if they have wood stove pellets.

I think one of our pet stores sells Kaytee Timothy Complete. I might even have a bag of it in the house somewhere... I'll keep looking at the different brands available. I'll also reduce the amount of pellets I give him each day.

And I'm glad that it's "ok" to put Peter and Trixy together. They lay down next to each other and Trixy adores him. It's very cute. I think my sister made a video of it. If I can I'll link it later. And yeah, I don't really want to put them together again until I get whatever Peter has cleared up. I know ringworm is very contagious. If that's what Peter has I don't want him to give it to Trixy.

EDIT: Maybe I can go to the pet store today and get him some toys. I'll also look at the different brands of food (first I'll see if I have some Kaytee in the house). I think I can find a box to make a hidey spot too.


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## Nancy McClelland (Jul 16, 2009)

For bedding, we get Pine at Walmart. It's been kiln dried so it's alright for our bunnies-per their vet-and it is absorbent as well as inexpensive.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 16, 2009)

I don't believe in guinea pigs and rabbits living together . They have different nutrional needs and in a small cage the rabbit can inadvertently injure the guinea pig. 
If a rabbit and guinea pig have been together a long time I wouldn't be really concerned re. the rabbit (carrier of bordatella ) giving the pig anything, however if the pig develops bordatella it wil be fatal. 
We have had cases of rabbits and guinea pigsbeing surrendered together at our shelter in small cages . In several cases the rabbit was relieved that the guinea pig was separated as the pig had chewed off a lot of the rabbits hair and the rabbit did not seem bonded although the guinea pig needed a new guinea pig companion .
Guinea pigs are nototious mite carriers and in some cases they are tranferred to the rabbit . 

it would not surprise me if your guinea pig has given your rabbit mange mites or something like that 

I, like Claire, however , feel that if a pig and rabbit have been together and were both treated for mites and lived in different cages ; could still be allowed to play together ( although guinea pig people would kill me for saying this) 

I don't believe that people should plan on bonding them but have some respect for a good bond if it already exists. 
My first rabbit was free roam and I only had one. She became blind and my female guinea pig lost her mate so (yes I did this ) allowed the guinea pig and rabbit to live free roam in my kitchen . it worked out perfectly as the guinea pig loved him and groomed him a lot and my rabbit was elderly, blind and toally non-aggressive . Nothing bad ever happened .
But I wouldn only do this under certain circumstances.


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## tonyshuman (Jul 16, 2009)

Sorry, I got confused between bordatella and pasturella.


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## NorthernAutumn (Jul 16, 2009)

*mimodok wrote:*


> I didn't know corncob bedding was bad...and my Dad just bought a huge bag that's ashigh as my waist. We used to use clay bedding but I learned that that was bad so we switched to corn. I don't want to waist that huge bag...what should I do with it? Is it safe to finish the bag and then stop buying it? The next timeI go to the pet store I'll see if they have wood stove pellets.
> 
> EDIT: Maybe I can go to the pet store today and get him some toys. I'll also look at the different brands of food (first I'll see if I have some Kaytee in the house). I think I can find a box to make a hidey spot too.


You could just use up the corncob litter for your guinea pig  & grab some of the pellets for peter in the meantime.

(I have no medical healthcare advice to relay to you... other folks like angieluv and tonyshuman are in charge of that stuff  )
However, 
From a behavioural standpoint, sounds like Peter is SUPER bored... I agree with getting some tough, durable toys.Get a phonebook to shred; toilet paper tubes to toss/stuff with hay/ -->Thread with more ideas here.

I would also elevate his cage off the floor, and place it on a low table (so he could have a free run area beneath his existing house. Even better, you could find some NIC panels/Organize it! grids, and build upwards to make a multi-story house. Would take up same space as current cage, but would allow for some jumping up on levels/more floors (burns off weight quickly). I ziptie NICs together to make a fence around cages so busn can have out time whenever they like.

Bonding between Peter and your sister's bun would likely go more smoothly if both were spayed/neutered. It would be a great help to both rabbits if they could bond, so they can groom & play together (more mental stimulation for both).


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## mimodok (Jul 17, 2009)

If corncob is bad for rabbits, wouldn't it be bad for guinea pigs also?

I don't think there is any way that I can upgrade Peter or Trixy's cage right now. I'll probably move out in a couple of years and maybe then I can look into building a bigger cage. I just don't think I can build anything that will keep him safe from my cats and dogs. Plus there are electrical cords everywhere so if I do a bad job and he escapes/if he's allowed to free-run, I'm sure he'd chew up some cords. Once, I found one cord behind my fish tank chewed in half that luckily wasn't plugged in. Now I watch him more carefully and try and move or cover up electrical cords while he's playing. Also, my entire house has hardwood flooring so he can't get much traction to really run with his fuzzy feet. I don't think I should put Peter and my sister's rabbit together. Her rabbit really tries to attack Peter. Her rabbit will attack _me_ - he's just aggressive. I'm sure that it's pent up energy because I don't know if my sister ever let's him out to play.

I'm beginning to see why rabbits are considered an exotic pet. This is much more difficult than keeping a dog.

*His chest is worse today.* The bald patch is bigger and now there is some red, dry, sore looking areas. Since my first post I've been letting him out to play for more than an hour each day. He's already been out once today. I tried to give him spinach this morning but he wouldn't eat it (I wasn't surprised) so I bought some parsley which I think he's nibbling on right now. There's a lot of hay in his cage and I'm not giving him as much food. Now that there's more hay available he's been eating less of it anyway.

My Mom is hesitant to let me take him to the vet. Our old vet once said, "You know you can buy another one of these for the cost of this appointment." That was when my guinea pig had mites. Ever since then my parents have been hesitant about vet appointments for our rodents. I only convinced my Mom to let me take Peter before because I looked like I was about to cry and his chest looked horrible. I mentioned bringing Peter to the vet to my Mom last night. She doesn't think he needs a blood test, or neutering, and she doesn't think it looks like ringworm or mange. If his chest looks worse tomorrow I'm calling and making an appointment with the vet anyway...

Why does he keep getting better for a while and suddenlygetting worselike this? His chest will look fine for a month and now I'm afraid he'll get those open sores soon like last time. He's been getting out as often as he used to (except now he gets out more). I made a cardboard paper towel roll into a toy yesterday with a bark chew sticking out of the middle. I looked for a box to make a hiding place out of but I'll probably have to cut up cardboard and make a box.

I went to two stores today looking at food brands and toys. I wrote down the Guaranteed Analysis of the two brands but I didn't see any good toys. There's two or three other places I could go look also. Is there anything I can do about his chest? Can I put Cortizone10 ointment on it or something? Revolution doesn't just treat fur mites it also does worms, etc. My mom said that he should not have any kind of parasite on or in him after being on Revolution for 2 months.

So it must be diet, allergies, behavioural, or a fungus. I don't know what else to do to help him if it's behavioural. I don't think it's a fungus because it doesn't really look like it and I'd think Trixy would have caught it.

*Ecotrition (what I currently use)*: Protein 16%, Alanine 0.65%, Arginine 0.70%, Aspartic acid 0.90%, Cystine 0.20%, Glycine 0.40%....a whole bunch of other stuff ending in "ine," 

Fat 5.0%, Fiber 22.0%, Moisture 12.0%, Calcium 0.10-0.60%, Phosphorus 0.35%, Salt 0.10-0.60%, Vitamin A...5,000 IU/kg, Vitamin D3...1,000 IU/kg, Vitamin E...30 IU/kg

There is a long list of ingredients. Is there anything that you've found some food brands have that you know shouldn't be in the food?

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=6067+10381+11940&pcatid=11940

*Bonanza: *Protein 13.5%, Fat 4%, Fiber 15%, Moisture 12%, Vitamin A...2,273 IU/lb., Vitamin D3...454 IU/lb., Viatmin E...14 IU/lb.

http://www.petco.com/Shop/Product.aspx?familyid=3120&Ntt=bonanza%20rabbit&OneResultRedirect=1

*Sunseed Sunaturals* ($11): Protein 15%, Fat 2.8%, Fiber 24%, Moisture 14%, Calcium 0.5-1.0%, Phosphorus 0.3%, Salt 0.35-0.85%, Vitamin A...5,000 IU/lb., Viatmin D3...80 IU/lb., Vitamin E...300 IU/lb.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=19370


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## mimodok (Jul 17, 2009)

My sister's rabbit is on the same food, has the same cage, has the same bedding, has minimal toys, and my sister says she never lets him out. (I know it sounds sad.) But, he doesn't have this problem. She also has a guinea pig and although they don't play together their cages are nearby. Both of her rodents have been treated with Revolution for the past 2 months also. Her rabbit isn't neutered either.

Now I want to say things are narrowed down to:


Peter is allergic to the Ecotrition 
Peter is allergic to the shavings 
Peterneeds to be neutered 
Peter is boredwhich is leading to self-mutilation 
Peter has some wierd disorder with his blood or something 
Peter has some kind of fungus even though that wasn't it last time and it looks the same 
I need to suck it up and spend a lot of money and time _building _a cage and practically dedicating an entire room to this rabbit and bolting the door to this room so that no humans can open the door so that no cats or dogs can scurry inside. (I really don't think I can do all that.) 
Buy a baby rabbit to live with Peter in his current cage and hope that the self-mutilation stops. (But that's taking on a whole other set of problems.)
Sorry about the rant at the end but this is so frustrating because it's been going on for so many months and I've tried everything I can think of...and I love this rabbit even though I didn't ask for him in the first place. And I know that my Mom and sisters couldn't have known what they would be asking me to take on when they brought him home. I mean, my sister's rabbit doesn't have any problems. He's mean but he's healthy. 

Every time I go in my room, after a few minutesPeter willstart chewing on his chest. I'm catching him doing it more and more. Even when I try to get his attention he ignores me and keeps chewing.

I need an action plan.Now I know everything that it_could _be that's causing this. You know what I've tried and what I can and can't do to help Peter. Since I don't know what is actually causing all of this, I don't know what steps should be taken. Can you help me come up with an action plan? A list of things I _definitely_ need to do (in order)? There are just too many possible problems and solutions I'm juggling around in my head right now.

I don't know how else to help this rabbit. Putting him up for a new home is an option but I can't guarantee he'll be better off or that it will solve the problem. I don't know of any rabbit shelters nearby anyway, or of anyone else who owns a rabbit. I don't want him to have to live the rest of his life with this health condition (right now that's what the situation looks like). I don't want to have to put him down either. I just want my little rabbit to be healthy and happy. I don't understand why this is so difficult to achieve.


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## tonyshuman (Jul 17, 2009)

I don't know exactly how GPs insides work, but if they are prone to stasis, they shouldn't have corncob bedding. The problem with corncob bedding is that they eat it and it expands a bit when wet, and then it blocks up the intestines, and they go into stasis. I don't know if GPs eat their bedding or have sensitive GI tracts like bunnies. 

I really hate it when people have the kind of attitude that the pet costs less than a vet visit. A pet is important to you and you care about it. They're not expendable, they're part of the family. If a person was sick, or a dog that you can get for $150, you'd spend as much money as you could on them and nobody would blame you for that. Rabbits are unique individuals and they're not expendable, although many people think so. Their value is so much more than what it costs to buy them. I have gotten so much out of my rabbits, worth way more than what I've put in to them. 

However, I'm a big softy about all animals, and I will spend whatever I can for my guys because I love them. I took my dying hamster to the emergency vet, and it was $70 to take her there. She died while they were trying to figure out what was wrong with her. I was happy to pay the $70 for their willingness to take me seriously about how much I cared about this hamster (that I bought for $4, I think), the kindness they treated me and her with, the effort they went into to help her and figure out what was wrong with her, and for them to do a post-mortem to see what caused her death. I'm surviving on a graduate student salary, so $70 is a lot to me. I think the love, companionship, and trust that our animals give us is worth whatever we can afford to spend. 

I'm not criticizing you at all, of course. It sounds like you'd take Peter to the vet if you had the money yourself.

I really think it is probably ringworm. It is true that rabbits can spread ringworm to guinea pigs, but they can also both be asymptomatic carriers of the disease. That could also explain it going away and coming back. Here are a few sites with info on rabbit ringworm, including treatments. Some sites say it's ok to use human antifungal treatments (I personally recommend clotrimazole over miconazole, ketoconazole is usually prescription only but it's the best), some say it's not ok to use them. That would have to be your call whether you feel safe putting something on there that's not meant to be eaten, since rabbits do commonly lick themselves clean. You could apply it, distract him from grooming for 15 min or so, and then wipe excess off to reduce the amount he ingests.

http://www.pet-rabbit-care-information.com/rabbit-fur-loss.htm
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=18+1803&aid=2494
http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/furloss.html (some graphic pics)
http://www.helium.com/items/1278281-ringworm-in-rabbits-symptoms-and-treatment

It could be boredom-related as well, which would mean it would go away now that you're giving him adequate out-of cage time. 

Other cheap/free toys are empty toilet paper and paper towel tubes, stuffed with hay and maybe a craisin deep in there. At the shelter, we put paper towel tubes between the bars of the cages so that they have something to pull against.

For the food, all 3 of those have seeds, dried fruit, and "fruit loops" (colored biscuit things) that aren't good for bunnies. They all have too much fat as well. Bonanza has ok protein, but not enough fiber, and the other two have too much protein, but ok fiber. The favorite food at my house and highly recommended by every vet I've been to (4 vets, one of which was the vet school) and the shelter staff, is Oxbow Bunny Basics T. A lot of forum members like it too. It has 14% protein, 1.5% fat, and 25% fiber. It's also timothy-hay based, which is best for adult bunnies. 
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=16618

A cheaper alternative is Kaytee Timothy complete, it's usually availabe at most pet stores. It has 13% protein, a.5% fat, and 18% fiber. That's a bit low in the fiber.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=12639

At the shelter we give adult bunnies a cheap but high quality alfalfa-based pellet. It's called Purina Hi Fiber Lab Diet. It has 14% protein, 1.5% fat, and 25% fiber. This site sells it, but it's a bit expensive through them, so maybe a feed store near you or a pet store would have it cheaper. I think it's $1/lb at my pet store (they sell it by the pound as well as in large bags).
http://bunnybytes.com/cgi-bin/newsearch.cgi?code=FDHA&step=1

If you can't find any of these, try to find something with no more than 14% protein, 2% fat, and at least 20% fiber if possible. Aviod seeds, dried fruits and veggies, and corn. The first ingredient should be timothy hay. Alfalfa is ok if it has the right protein and fat numbers.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 17, 2009)

Did the vet ever do a skin scraping and look under the microscope?
I don't think so 


The ecotrition is way to high in fat 5% is absolutely terrible

I think that he has a skin condition ; I don't think that it's self mutilation....

mange, ringworm, variuos funguses do not always have a "classic: appearance in rabbits. ..particularly ringworm 


The answer is to try to work something out with your parents and/or your vets to take care of him. Being a good pet owner is being there for the 'good and bad" of the pet..whether you can get anotherrabbit or not....If your vet is qualified but not interested then she is not very good ; I would seek out another vet and we can help you with that if you are interested...
i


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## Maureen Las (Jul 17, 2009)

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=11623&forum_id=9


Randy ( an mod on this forum) has a rabbit rescue 150 miles from you in Rocky Mount NC 

If there is any way that you could get there you would get the answer but seeing your situation I guess your parent wouldn't consider that...


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## mimodok (Jul 17, 2009)

Okay so I definitely need to find a better food brand. I know that our Wal-Mart has the Kaytee Timothy Complete. I know of a farmer supply/hardware storewhere my sister swears she saw giant bags of Purina rabbit food for sale. There aretwo more pet stores that I plan to go to tomorrow to look at their food. 

I've told my parents about how I've found a forum and asked for help and I've talked to them about possible causes and solutions. They know I love Peter and if I insisted I know they would let me take him to the vet. I have some money saved so I could pay for it if I had to but I know my parents wouldn't let me use my own money, they would feel bad and reimburse me. My Dad says he can think of a couple of places where he remembers seeing that kiln-dried bedding you described. After a couple of days of listening to my concerns my parents are being cooperative now. I think they're just having trouble getting past the mentality that rabbits are just raised for food and fur. I mean, we don't eat or skin dogsand cats in America so it's easier for them to consider them as pets I guess. 

My vet (and all of the staff) were very captivated by Peter and really wanted to help. I'll look at Peter's chest tomorrow and if it still looks inflamed or irritated at all (as opposed to just bald) I'll call the vet and make an appointment to get a scraping.

I managed to make a half-shelter out of a box around his litter-box-bed. I put a rag in his litter-box-bed in case the shavings are irritating him (although I doubt putting a tiny rag in there will really help with that, he likes to dig in towels anyway so he can at least play with it.) I stuffed a cardboard paper towel roll with Timothy hay like you suggested and he likes tossing that around. I used to just give him the cardboard tube. Who would have thought stuffing it with hay would transform it into a brand new magical toy thing! I found some scrap yarn that I rolled into a ball, tied a bark chew to, and hung from the roof of his cage. He didn't look interested in it. He did shake his head and hop around his cage when I knocked it against stuff and made noise. Now I know he really likes noisy toys.

I really think he's happy. Self-mutilation would suggest otherwise but he just looks like a happy rabbit. He doesn't seem to be in pain either. So, I don't think putting him down or having to give him up is something that I have to consider. It's nice to know about the shelter in Rocky Point though. I'll go there if I'm interested in getting another rabbit (much) later on. It's also good to know in case I run into someone who can't take care of theirs anymore.

So tomorrow...I'll keep looking at food brands and I'll probably get some kiln-dried litter while I'm there, and I'll see how his chest looks in the morning and probably call the vet anyway. I had no idea that all of that colorful stuff was bad for rabbits. It all sounded good: dried fruit and veggies and seeds - it sounds like it's something a healthy rabbit would eat. Stupid marketing. 

My Mom says that parrots will often do this to themselves. Even when given huge living spaces, other bird friends, constant human attention, toys, and good food they still pull out their feathers - some birds are completely bald. There is a horse at the stable we board at that cribbed until his front teeth were worn down to the gums. We tried everything we could to get him to stop cribbing, but now he doesn't have any front teeth. I hope that this isn't just some habit of Peter's that I can't stop.

*Sigh* I've learned a lot about rabbits in the past couple of days. It seems like I've had everything backwards all along. I used to think that they always needed food available and just needed some hay...no wonder Peter is overweight.


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## mimodok (Jul 18, 2009)

Okay I'm calling the vet tomorrow and making an appointment. It probably is some skin condition that needs medicine. And afterwards I can stop feeling like I'm neglecting him by not taking him to the vet when there's clearly something wrong...


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## SweetSassy (Jul 18, 2009)

I've read this whole thread. And I hope your bunny, Peter starts feeling better. You really love him and you just want to do the best for him. You've been willing to listen and take advise from other people. I think once the doctor finds out whats wrong with Peter it will be less frustrating for you. 



Keep up the good work  Keep us updated on Peter. 

 .......April


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## Maureen Las (Jul 18, 2009)

I also think that you're really trying very hard to help him and I'm glad that your parents are beginning to listen to you.

You've given us a lot of informationon Peter which is a sign to me that you do really care about him.

If it is a behavioral problem like self mutilation all possible physical reasons for the behavior should be ruled out first 

Please keep us up-dated
Maureen


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## NorthernAutumn (Jul 18, 2009)

Hate to put a medical oar in, but would it beadvisable to E-collar Peter in the meantime to stop him from doing further damage to his chest?


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## mimodok (Jul 19, 2009)

Autumn that's such a clever idea! I never would have thought of that. It's such a simple solution too.

I was going to call the vet today but I forgot that they're closed on weekends. Today my Dad said that he was going to the farmer's supply store and he asked if I wanted him to get anything for Peter. I wrote down some of the food brands you suggested and the quote: "Try to find something with no more than 14% protein, 2% fat, and at least 20% fiber if possible. Avoid seeds, dried fruits and veggies, and corn. The first ingredient should be timothy hay. Alfalfa is ok if it has the right protein and fat numbers." I also asked him to look for kiln-dried pine bedding or wood stove pellets.

I woke up from my nap to find three 5lb. bags of rabbit food, 1 bag of Carefresh Pet Bedding, 1 bag of Feline Pine Original, and a copy of the 2009 Annual Rabbits USA magazine outside my bedroom door. I must say he outdid himself.

The food is called Zupreem Nature's Promise Premium Rabbit Food Made From Timothy Hay (long name). It says it has no soy, no wheat, and no pesticides. The crude protein is 14.0%, crude fat is 1.0%, and crude fiber is 28.0%. And it's just pellets, no colorful stuff. I put 1/4 cup of food in Peter's bowl - 1/2is his old food, 1/2 is the new food. He picked out and ate all of his old food before trying the new food, lol.

The Carefresh Pet Bedding I've used before. It's not too expensive, but we were using it for 4 rodents, 3 of which are living in (what I consider) large cages. We stopped using it because it was getting too costly. But, my Dad says it's not a problem for just one rabbit cage. All of the other rodents don't seem bothered by the aspen shavings we've been using. Anyway this bedding is made from reclaimed short-fiber pulp that can't be made into paper. It's pine and cedar oil free, and it's free of ink, dyes, clays, and chemicals used in the paper making process. It's also sanitized to 380 degrees Fahrenheit to reduce bacteria, mold, and fungus. I don't thinkPeter (or anyone)can possibly be allergic to this stuff.

The Feline Pine litter was too heavy for me to use in his entire cage. The bottom of the cage is sort of suspended. If there is too much wait, the plastic bin will bend and fall. Unfortunately we've experienced this once with my sister's rabbit (he was ok just stunned and in need of rescue). The bottom of these cages basically work like a drawer. I can explain it or show it to you later if anyone is curious about it. But anyway...I cleaned Peter's cage and used the Carefree bedding. I put some of the Feline Pine in the corner he uses as a bathroom. I like to use some kind of litter in the corner so I can scoop out his poops between cage cleanings (weekly). I didn't see anywhere on the Feline Pine about it being kiln-dried.Willit still beokay to use?

The magazine my Dad bought has been really informative and interesting. It relayed many of the things you've already said and I learned a new game that Peter likes! In the very back it lists names of vets by location. It says the listings are sent to the magazine by the veterinarian offices. It only listed one in Wilmington but I expect that they are more experienced than my current vet. The staff at my current vet said that they never see rabbits or really any exotic animals come in - just cats in dogs. I'm sure my vet is qualified but I think I'll try this other place.

I saw that you didn't have any vets listed for Wilmington, NC when I looked at your vet directory earlier. I added my vet to it but I think I'll go edit that post andreplace it withthe information that was listed in this magazine. The magazine's vet directory is really long. I think it'd be a great place to check for updates for your site's directory.

...going to call this other place a.s.a.p. and make an appointment for Peter, and I'll ask about an E-collar while I'm there. Peter is loving all of this extra attention by the way.


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## NorthernAutumn (Jul 19, 2009)

Feline Pine is A-1.. Many of us have used it with success. You're good to go!
What a wonderful dad you have!
I've got my guys litter trained, using carpet/folded towel for the bottom of the cage, and a litterpan full of litter in corner. More cost-effective too! Stray poops are OK, but they know enough to pee in the box. Peter probably does too 
*
***
Actually, you can make your own E-collar at home out of a washcloth...*
It will also help if a salve of some nature needs to be applied.

Lemme find that thread...
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=37816&forum_id=16&msg=2
And another similar one...
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=47073&forum_id=16

***
If it does turn out to be self-mutilation, JimD would be able to help a lot on that point.

***
I had one more brain-fart...
Are you using a crock or waterbottle? I seem to remember a rabbit on here that was dunking her dewlap in the crock/bowl, and wound up with major itching... tore her dewlap/chest open.
If Peter has rolls of flesh there, or around neck, he may be itchy from being damp/fungal growth.
Just a thought...

***
Keep up that extra attention... he'll thrive on your love & attention (as you're noticing!)


*ETA: Upon further research, apparently Guinea Pigs don't do well with corncob bedding either[looks yummy =blockages]  My error, and apologies. *


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## Maureen Las (Jul 19, 2009)

Thanks Autumn

yes a soft e-collar is the way to go as the hard ones are really uncomfortable for the rabbits and tnot worth the stress of one if you can make a soft one


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## tonyshuman (Jul 20, 2009)

Yay! Good stuff already said. I have heard good things about the Zupreem as well, so that should do him good!


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## mimodok (Jul 21, 2009)

Well I thought that the vet I saw in the magazine sounded likea good one, but when I tried to call it said the number was temporarily unavailable and when I checked their website it wasn't a valid domain. I guess they went out of business. I called the vet office located in Petsmart and they referred me to another one.

I was able to bring Peter in this afternoon. The vet was very thorough and listened to everything I said about what I'd tried. He and the tech loved Peter. They kept commenting on how soft and sweethe is. Peter wasn't scared at all. He let everyone handle him andhe wasdigging in the towel that was on the table and trying to explore.

He said that all the changes I've made have been good and it's helped narrow down the possibilities. I mentioned I'd sought help on a forum and told him about your thoughts - which he took seriously. He didn't think it was sexual frustration but he didn't rule that out. I asked about doing a scraping but he said that he'd rather not unless he was anesthetized (I agreed with him after he explained). He didn't actually check for fungus because I said he'd been checked for that last time.

He explained that in many species, some animals pick at sores, which makes it worse so they pick at it more, and so on. He thinks that that's why it's progressing so quickly all of a sudden. I described how Peter will play with toys and put them down to groom his chest. Hesaid that it's probably itchy and that's why he won't leave it alone.

*The treatment*: He gave Peter a shot to help with the itching (it was probably cortizone) and he gave me the same antibiotics that I used last time, to be given to him twice a day for a week. The antibiotics are to help with the sores since that seemed to work last time. The antibiotics are a cherry flavored liquid called Bactrim. He asked me to call him in a week and let him know how things looked. He thinks it's possible thatchanging his bedding and diet will clear things up but that will take time to see. He said that if it still doesn't clear up, that the next step would be to take a biopsy and look at the type of cells present.

So I guess we'll see what happensover the next week. 

Also, I found out that Peteris 6.7 lbs. The vet also thinks he is a mini lop rex, like you said. I thought the appointment was cheap. With the cost of the medicine it was a total of $76. I overheard the clients around me checking out their dogs for a routine checkup and it cost them around $115. I hadexpected his appointment to at least cost as much as a dog. It was a really nice facility, I was impressed.


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## NorthernAutumn (Jul 21, 2009)

pop an e-collar on, and you should be golden 

ETA: Sounds like you have a wonderful vet... many poo-poo online suggestions, and refuse to consider anything outside of their own limite experience. That price is extremely low; he sounds like a keeper!


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## mimodok (Jul 21, 2009)

I could make a bunny shirt out of a sock. I could also try and fashion a soft e-collar. That was a helpful link you posted. I'm mainly worried that the cloth will irritate his chest though. Should I use a sock and line it with something? Should I try and make an e-collar? What material should I use?


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## Maureen Las (Jul 21, 2009)

Cotton wrapped in vet wrap, secured with surgical tape as the post explained should work


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## NorthernAutumn (Jul 21, 2009)

:highfive:Go A & M, the E-collar team!

(Seriously, that like all I ever talk about in here is E-collars... I've never even made one yet, and it's still all I talk about :biggrin2


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## Maureen Las (Jul 21, 2009)

LOL Autumn


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## mimodok (Jul 21, 2009)

lol

Hmmm I think I have some cotton somewhere...I don't know about surgical tape. I'll tackle that tomorrow unless he's miraculously stopped picking at it.


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## NorthernAutumn (Jul 21, 2009)

Would layers of clear packing tape work, Maureen? I think it would just slide easily over the fur?


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## mimodok (Jul 21, 2009)

I can't get him to take his antibiotics for anything. I tried swaddling him in a towel but beacause he's so soft he slips right out and I can't keep a hold on him. I tried squishing him against the floor with my arm around him. He kicks and he has really sharp claws and I can't keep a grip on him. I tried putting some on my fingers to see if he would just lick it off but he ran away. I'd almost rather give him a shot, I think that'd be easier than this. I can get my sister to try and help, but even when we had to give him antibiotics before, with two people it always took at least 30 minutes and Peter was really stressed out at the end.

What do I do? 

His chest already looks better by the way.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 21, 2009)

You need to find a second person to help you; it should notbe so terrible as you described but some buns are really squirmy 

you can make a bunny burrito fairly tight with the buns head out ; I mean wrap him up tight in a towel but don't turn him upside down 

Ihave seen buns squirm out of a towel but then wrapped it tighter 

Iwill see if any videos are around


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## mimodok (Jul 21, 2009)

Hmmm, alright. When my sister comes home later this afternoon I'll try again. It's so difficult just to get him in a towel. He's figured out what I'm up to.He's being sucha difficult bunny. :rollseyes

A bunny burrito isa good description, lol. Thanks.


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## mimodok (Jul 27, 2009)

My sister and I have gotten good at giving Peter antibiotics, lol.

Well it's been a week and I'm supposed to call the vet today andlet him know how Peter is doing. His chest has been looking so much better. The fur is really starting to grow back in the center. The red sores are all gone. For a couple of days I didn't catch him botheringthe areaat all. But now that it's the end of the treatment, he's starting reallygoingat the edges again. It's more licking than pulling/chewing though, which is an improvement I guess. I wonder if this has started again because the cortizone shot has worn off.

I'll call the vet later today and see what he thinks we should do. He may want me to bring him back in for a biopsy.

About the second or third day of the treatment I caught him one morning really going at it. I made a soft e-collar which was effective but he instantly looked so heartbroken that I had to take it off. After trying to get it off he finally laid down and refused to get up, even when I tried to nudge him up. He didn't even move while I removed the e-collar. After about 5 minutes he got up and went to his bed to lay down and look emo. It's nice to know that the e-collar worksbut I hope that I don't ever have to resort to using one.

I hope that if we do a biopsy,he won't have tohave an e-collar.


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## SweetSassy (Jul 27, 2009)

It's good to hear he's getting better.  I would def call the vet if it's starting up again. Keep up the good work. :biggrin2:


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## tonyshuman (Jul 27, 2009)

Yeah, licking is better than chewing, but it may be from the cortizone wearing off. I don't know exactly how long those shots are supposed to last. If they do a biopsy, an e-collar may not be required. The main reason we don't put the cone e-collars on bunnies very often is because they make the bunnies so sad to wear them. I can see how he would be upset about a soft e-collar--I put Tony's walking harness on Friday to help him get used to it, and he was a sassy, unhappy boy. I hope it continues to improve. The fact that it is clearing up some from antibiotics is good, but it may mean there is a secondary bacterial infection to a primary problem like a fungal infection. So, if the bacterial infection goes away but the skin doesn't totally heal from the rash, it will probably return like before. I hope it's just a stubborn bacterial infection that is being taken care of by the current treatment though. Good job with those meds!


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## mimodok (Jul 28, 2009)

Well yesterday he was chewing it again. Now there's this long, red, sore/gash-looking thing again. The hair is growing back in the center and he keeps chewing on the edges. It's like it heals and returns in ripples. I called the vet today but he didn't get a chance to return my call so hopefully I'll be able to talk to him tomorrow. I've still got antibiotics left that I can give him. If the vet doesn't return my call tomorrow I'll go ahead and start another round of antibiotics until I can get up with him.

We've got a cat witha skin problem she was born with (whichlooks similar to what Peter has actually...hmmm) and we often have to give her cortizone shots. The vet was able to diagnose her skin problem with a biopsy. If it turns out thatPeter has the same thing or something similar, regularly giving him cortizone shots isn't a problem. I know that cortizone isn't good for the heart and stuff though.

This is so puzzling. It'd be nice to have a real diagnosis.


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## SweetSassy (Jul 28, 2009)

Hopefully the vet will do a biopsy so you can figure it out. Poor bunny. Your being a great mommy to him


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## tonyshuman (Jul 29, 2009)

That is puzzling. A biopsy should get you a good answer. To me, the most likely answer is a fungal infection with secondary bacterial infection. I worry though that there's something going on in the environment if both the cat and rabbit have a skin reaction in common. Is it an allergic reaction in the cat? Do they play in similar areas of the house?


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## mimodok (Aug 4, 2009)

We've had the cat much longer than Peter. The cat has had her skin problem all of her life. They're never around each other.

Right now Peter has a lot of hair growth so it looks almost normal. There's just one red spot but it's getting better. I don't catch him chewing it very often.

The vet finally called me back yesterday. He was out of town so he didn't get the message that I'd called until yesterday. We talked about Peter's current condition and he prescribed Benadryl twice a day for 2 weeks. At least it's banana flavored, so maybe Peter will be better about taking it. I also started another round of antibiotics. I told the vet and he said to keep that up as long as it looks like it needs it. 

The vet said that the cortizone shot should last for several weeks. He suspects that Peter is allergic to something, like his food. I mentioned before that in the past I would change his food brands. That would explain why his chest has gotten better and worse. I bet he's been having an allergic reaction every time I used the Ecotrition.

Right now I'm concerned about his diet. He eats plenty of hay but I'm having trouble getting him to eat his pellets. He doesn't like the new food I bought. It's not yummy without that high fat. I've been mixing it with his old food for the past couple of weeks. He'll immediately eat all of the old food from his bowl. While I'm preparing it he stands up and pushes my hand around trying to get to the bowl. He acts like he's starving when I feed him. He barely touches the new pellets.

Since the vet said he's probably allergic to his food, I didn't give him any of his old food today. He has plenty of the new stuff though (and hay). Now Peter is grouchy. He doesn't want to leave his box and he grunts at me if I try and pick him up. He's not interested in being handled at all. Normally he begs to be petted. I think he's hungry. He's acted like this before when I tried to take him off of his old food and he perked up when I gave it to him again.

I gave him Timothy Complete once and I think I remember him eating it. I guess I could try getting a bag of that. But what do I do with the 15lbs. of this other stuff? Is there any way I can get him to eat it? The other rabbit doesn't like it either.


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## mimodok (Aug 4, 2009)

I haven't given him any medicine today because I know antibiotics can cause nausea on an empty stomach, and since he doesn't seem to be eating very much...

He's lost about 2 lbs. in two weeks by the way. Now he's about 4.5 lbs. and looks healthy.

I ran into a couple of interesting articles. I'm beginning to wonder if Peter might have molar spurs.

Article about a rabbit refusing pellets.

Article about molar spurs.

I also read about something called *Saliva burn*:

"Fur Loss Around the Mouth and Under the Chin: Dental Problems!
In some rabbits, fur loss is restricted to the area just under the chin, in the folds of the dewlap (the fleshy flap of skin and tissue under the skin), or down the chest. Often, but not always, the fur and/or skin there will be wet. In many, but not all cases, the rabbit will also develop suddenly picky eating habits. These can vary greatly among individuals, with some rabbits being willing to eat pellets, but not hay, others eating hay but not pellets, some refusing to drink, and still others refusing everything but the most favorite treats. In short, any change in eating preferences is usually a good enough reason for a dental exam by an experienced rabbit vet.

Signs like this are almost surely due to molar spurs or other dental problems such as a molar abscess. These will make the bunny drool. Since saliva is caustic, it burns the skin, making the wet area itchy and sore, and causing the fur to fall out. Some rabbits will actually chew at the irritated area so much that they develop open sores.

Although just about any rabbit can get molar spurs and other dental problems, they are more prevalent in short-faced breeds such as lops and dwarf rabbits, as well as in rabbits five years or older.

The solution to this problem is to find a very experienced rabbit vet who can do a deep oral exam to detect any molar spurs (some sensitive rabbits will show these signs even from very small spurs), and file them smooth, as necessary. If no spurs are visible, then head radiographs may be necessary to see if there are any signs of tooth rooth infection or other mouth problem that's causing the bunny to drool."


I'm thinking about calling the vet back and seeing about getting Peter's teeth examined.


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## aurora369 (Aug 4, 2009)

For the food issue, I would just stick it out and be more stubborn than him. As long as he's eating lots of hay, he won't starve. He's like a toddler addicted to sugary treats instead of eating vegetables. Once he realizes that the old food is not coming back, he should start eating the good pellets. 

If needed, you can try syringing a bit of mashed up pellets to him so he has something in his stomach before medicine. However, it he's eating hay, then he'll have that in his stomach. I would only be worried if he's not eating anything.

I have one bunny that will snub pellets for hay. He'll eat a couple mouthfuls of pellets until bring a nice fresh handful of hay, and then he abandons the pellet bows and goes nuts on the hay. He is a great weight, and I'm not concerned. He will go back later in the day and eat a bit more pellets. Pellets can be seen akin to a vitamin supplement, important, but not the main portion of the diet. Hay should make up most of a rabbits diet.

--Dawn


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## tonyshuman (Aug 4, 2009)

Have you noticed drool? The drool when there are mouth issues is usually at the corners of the mouth or right under the chin, and that's where the fur loss would be too. A vet can look in his mouth with a dental tool to check out the molars, but the hair loss isn't where I would expect it to be for a tooth issue. Can you check his front teeth yourself? They should line up with the top teeth slightly in front of the bottoms.

I think Dawn is right about sticking it out with the new food. However, he's lost quite a bit of weight quickly, hasn't he? 2lb in 2 weeks sounds like a lot--I thought the best was to do no more than 10% a week. It's true that you're going to a healthier diet, but doing it too quickly can be harmful. Rabbits should act like they're starving when they get their pellets (cuz they're stinkers). I don't know, perhaps it's a question for a nutrition person.


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## NorthernAutumn (Aug 4, 2009)

Sorry to interject, but it was my understanding that a course of antibiotics needs to be followed rigorously and to the end of their course...


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## tonyshuman (Aug 4, 2009)

Oh, I didn't read that part of the post. Autumn is right--you need to give the full course of antibiotics. If his stomach is truly empty and that worries you, give him some pellet slurry. I wouldn't worry about giving antibiotics on an empty stomach. Some rabbits feel bad while on antibiotics, so they won't eat as much, but they will still continue to eat. I also haven't heard not to give antibiotics on an empty stomach for rabbits. Are you supplementing the antibiotic with a probiotic for his gut?


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## mimodok (Aug 7, 2009)

I talked to the vet yesterday and he was concerned about Peter's rapid weight loss. He also thought that molar spurs were a definite possibility. He hadn't really considered it because he didn't see any drooling and he didn't know the extent of Peter's new eating habits (at the time I didn't either). He's going to be out of town for the next week but I made an appointment on the 18th. The vet is going to anesthitize him, check his teeth and file them down if necessary, and do a scraping and/or biopsy at the same time. Hopefully after this appointment Peter will be better or we'll atleast find out what's going on.

Nothing bad will happen if you stop antibiotics. You are supposed to rigorously give the whole treatment - if you want the antibiotics to work properly. Anyway, Peter is currently getting antibiotics and benadryl twice a day. I'm not sure how much antibiotics I have left but there's two weeks worth of the benadryl. If I run out of antibiotics before I see the vet I could always ask him to call in some more in the meantime. The benadryl doesn't seem to make him sleepy at all. With the medicine and his old food he's really perked up. He kicks his feet and runs around his cage playing all the time.

Giving him his old food is just temporary. If it turns out he has molar spurs, I'm hoping that he'll eat the new food once he's better. If not, I'll try giving him Kaytee Timothy Complete. I'll let you know how the appointment goes.


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## tonyshuman (Aug 7, 2009)

Ok, that sounds good. I'm not sure if it's molar spurs or the different food that's causing him to not eat as much. At the very least, you'll be able to do a skin biopsy while he's under anesthesia. It's good that he isn't reacting poorly to the benadryl.


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## Flashy (Aug 7, 2009)

I have several bunnies that have dental problems and I haven't ever seen drooling or dribble in any of them, often lack of interest in food can be the first sign that they are uncomfortable, so it is a definite possibility.

At that point with mine I give them a pain killer which normally helps them eat more. It might be worth getting him some pain killer from the vets. If you give him some and he starts to eat that is probably more indicative of molar spurs than the new food.


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