# Puzzled by colour of offspring



## Sabine (May 16, 2015)

I have been breeding with Siamese sable/smoke lines for a few years and recently introduced a Himalayan buck to the equation. The sable/smoke lines are from show breeding stock and always produced consistent result as regards colour. Unfortunately I don't know an awful lot a bout the pedigree of the Himalayan buck but bred to my two light smoke does the offspring was either Himalayan or light smoke. Sometimes the smokes would be a bit strangely coloured with a lot of white under their belly.
As it turns out one of these smokes went to a person who bred him to a sable doe that stems from the "pure" lines and the outcome is this:
http://www.donedeal.ie/smallfuries-for-sale/pure-breed-netherland-dwarf-rabbits/9405016?offset=1
The seller claims one of the offspring is black otter and I admit there is a resemblance but is that genetically possible? I can't figure out what else it could be though. Could someone enlighten me as I would love to know what the background of my Himalayan buck is.


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## woahlookitsme (May 16, 2015)

So the babies aren't actually what the seller says they are. 

The second photo shows it very well but that baby is a Sable marten. You can see the brown markings/shading. Otters most significantly have an orange triangle on the nape of their neck and lacing as well. This baby is white in the tan pattern which makes it a marten.

I also notice ear lacing and tan pattern markings on the himi baby Seen in the fourth photo. This mebabyans that it is actually a himi marten and is not showable


It looks like your himi is most certainly carrying marten and pretty predominantly it seems. Bad for any himi babies that come out because they will probably have the ear lacing and such

This website might actually help alot!
http://www.angelfire.com/mi4/bunnyrun/COLOR.html


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## Sabine (May 17, 2015)

Thank you very much for the reply.
The seller is offering those rabbits as pets only and the colour mistake is just lack of knowledge.
I was just puzzled when a friend of mine pointed out the ad and told me that the dad must be one of my babies that I more than likely sold as a pet :-(
Does that mean my himi buck carries at ? I had always suspected that as some of the smokes he produced had quite a lot of white under the chin and belly. But I also did get correctly coloured smokes from him and decent enough himis (I thought) I must go through old photos and see what the actual colouring was. 
Thank you so much again!


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## Sabine (May 17, 2015)

P.S. Just one more thought. I am not too familiar with the Tan group so I am wondering why I only ever get either correctly coloured or "martenized" smokes from breeding my himi buck to my smoke does and the seller got a proper sable marten. Does that mean the sable doe would have to carry the tan gene as well? It is very unlikely as the doe is from the same lines as my smokes and as far as I am aware nobody carries at. A friend and I have been breeding with those lines (smoke/sable) for years and there has never been a marten.


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## Sabine (May 17, 2015)

Just found an old picture on photobucket of the type of smokes I sometimes got from crossing my himi with the correctly coloured smokes



And this is a current picture of a 12 day old dark smoke or sable from a cross of a "pure" line of smoke/sable:


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## woahlookitsme (May 17, 2015)

So the buck that the seller used actually looks like a smoke pearl marten and this is what the first baby photo you posted is as well with a correct smoke pearl underneath.

I am not very good at rabbit genetics as other people on another forum but from what research I have done a self rabbit (himi buck) cannot carry tan pattern so your buck has to be a himi marten. Do you have photos of him? The most easy way to see it is by the white ear lacing or white marks on the feet. Can you post photos of him?


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## woahlookitsme (May 17, 2015)

A smoke pearl marten is at_B_cchl_ddE_ so no you're smoke pearls do not have to carry it in order to get a smoke pearl marten but your himi buck must be a marten for it to show up

Himi marten atab_ch_D_E_


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## woahlookitsme (May 17, 2015)

Sable marten is also at_ so the doe did not have to carry it hence the baby got the marten from dad (the smoke pearl marten)

Sorry for so many replies


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## Sabine (May 18, 2015)

Thank you very much for your replies. That explains a few things. I am still a bit confused why the smoke babies and the adult buck that you identified as a marten don't carry the full markings. I have seen sable martens before and even owned one as a pet and I always thought the pattern was distinctly different from the siamese sable / smoke. Feeling a bit like a plank not having recognized it myself. In my defence they were only sold as pets and I did point out to the buyers (if they were interested) that these were slightly different from my Siamese smokes.
I have two questions left: Is there a reason why the pattern presents so weekly (no eye circles etc...) and why can a self himi buck not carry the tan pattern. Would that not work as any other recessive gene? Or is there something like "partial diminance? I am totally unfamiliar with "at" and it has cropped up by chance.
I would have to have a look for Winter pictures of my buck as at the moment he looks a but bleached from exposure to the sun.
Will post them as soon as I find them.
I always assumed in the past that the marten pattern was somehow carried recessively and therefore the offspring looked merely "martenized" rather than like a proper marten. I assumed it was a bit like the "c" gene influencing the shade of the colour. Do you know what I mean?
I must do a bit more research into the gene. Thank you for your help.


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## woahlookitsme (May 18, 2015)

Let me post your reply to another forum that I'm work. They have lots of genetic gurus there and will probably be able to better answer your questions. It takes a day or two for them to respond though


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## Sabine (May 18, 2015)

Thanks that would be great. Just realized a thinking mistake of mine ;-) I got confused between a and A. The self gene, of course, is the a (I got confused with agouti A) so as you said a self can't carry at as it is dominant over a.
All my rabbits apart from the himi have aa as their colouring in the offspring is consistent. The himi must be ata as he also produces properly coloured Siamese smokes. But I am still wondering why the smoke martens are not properly coloured though. They obviously have ata. Would it require atat to get a good pattern?
If you could find that out for me that would be great.
P.S. And would you know how to raise the t in at.
I used to be able to do it when writing down genetic codes but I haven't logged on in such a long time that I forgot how to do it. Thanks.


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## Sabine (May 18, 2015)

P.S. Doing some reasearch about the tan pattern and came accross this:
*"Tan (at):* Tan is only well expressed in the presence of the wild-type (E) allele at extension. Its presence along with the ES is highly discouraged in most breeds because it can lead to poorly marked tans. Similar to black and tan in dogs, it causes a black coat with tan in the areas normally lightened by Agouti."
I never even look as far as the extension locus. But I am not even sure how to relate that to my rabbits.


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## woahlookitsme (May 18, 2015)

Here's some replies for you:.
Quote:
"why can a self himi buck not carry the tan pattern. Would that not work as any other recessive gene? Or is there something like "partial dominance? I am totally unfamiliar with "at" and it has cropped up by chance."


It does work exactly as a simple dominant/recessive gene. at is is dominant over a ... so self cannot carry tan pattern, but tan pattern can carry self (ata = tan). 

Quote:
"Is there a reason why the pattern presents so weekly (no eye circles etc...)"


This probably comes down to modifier genes. Within tan pattern rabbits, some have stronger/bolder eyes circles, others have weaker ones. Some have nice clear bellies with the marks extending up the sides, others have 'muddy' bellies with stray dark color mingled in, the band narrowed, etc. The degree of expression of the primary tan gene (at) is affected by many secondary genes (modifiers). Many of these are NOT simple dominant/recessive but multigenic, multillelic and co-dominant. I would not expect a tan pattern rabbit bred to a self to produce well-marked kits -- because the self parent most likely is not contributing the necessary modifier genes. 

Quote:
"one of these smokes went to a person who bred him to a sable doe that stems from the "pure" lines and the outcome is this:
http://www.donedeal.ie/smallfuries-f...05016?offset=1
The seller claims one of the offspring is black otter and I admit there is a resemblance but is that genetically possible?"


smoke x sable = aaB-chl-ddE- x aaB-chl-D-E-

black otter kit would = at-B-C-D-E-

No, this cannot give black otter because neither parent has a dominant C gene to give to the offspring AND neither parent has a dominant at gene to give the offspring. 

By the pictures, the offspring is definitely tan pattern ... 

The pictured sire, described as smoke, has light lacing inside the ears. Despite the lack of eye circles, I think he must be a smoke pearl marten. That makes him the source of the at gene. 

The cross STILL won't give black otter. I think the tan pattern kit that was identified as black otter is either sable marten (which is what it really looks like to me in the photo) or a seal marten (if actually blacker than it looks). Ears, eye circles, cheeks and chest look very white to me -- on an otter they would be cream to orange. The brownish 'sepia' tone of the sable creeping into the triangle can easily make one think otter instead of marten. 

sable marten = at-B-chl-D-E-
seal marten = at-B-chlchlD-E-

The baby DOES have way better markings than the dad, especially eye circles. Not what one would predict, but luck of the draw in a line not selected for markings, mom is likely carrying the correct modifiers even through she is sable (she could easily have martens 4 generations back and the modifiers have carried through unseen).


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## woahlookitsme (May 18, 2015)

"I would say that the himi buck is a martenized himi, which is giving the person smoke pearl martens. That would explain the occurrence of "smokes with light bellies" and the otter/martens in that litter."


"I agree with the others that the himi buck is probably martenised himi (given that the strange smokes only started turning up when he came along). When looking for the white marks associated with this I'd concentrate on the inside of the ears and under the tail. Even if there are no clear signs, he may still be the cause because some himi lines have steel in them. If the buck is ataB_ch_D_EsE (for example) he could look normal himi or martenised himi or anywhere in between."

"I also want to say himi/california may carry steel or dominant black (this was found by a investigation of E series alleles).
I am searching for a himalayan marten for a long time, but haven't gotten a good image up to now.
May you ask the owner if i can get an image of it? Its for an explanation of the c series for print, i can send them the context for which i need it."

The last person has a famous color website and wanted me to ask for a photo of your buck if you have one


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## Sabine (May 19, 2015)

Thanks again for helping me with this. The replies explain a lot and looking at my himi now he more than likely is a marten himi. If you don't have the comparison it is easy to think the points are black.
The steel gene is a bit of a mystery to me still and I have to do some more research into it.
I found two pictures of the himi buck when he was 5 months old. I know he is not the best specimen re type but I wanted him mainly for his colour (and his personality)


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## woahlookitsme (May 19, 2015)

Yep he definitely looks marten. No worries I can definitely see how he can appear normal. I've learned alot the hard way doing this rabbit thing for awhile lol


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## Sabine (May 19, 2015)

I am not sure if I have marten modifiers in my Siamese sable or smoke stock as they are usually quite consistent but I have had the odd occurrence of a white "bib" like on this baby rabbit:






Does that mean anything?


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## Sabine (May 21, 2015)

One last question ;-)
Am I right to assume the genetic make up of my himi buck must be ataBchchdd ?
at a as he produces martenized but also correctly coloured smokes
B He may carry chocolate recessively but I can't test it as none of my does carry it as far as I know.
ch ch as he has never produced REW offspring but only himis when bred to my smoke does.
dd as he never produced a sable when bred to my smoke does.
I know the latter two can't be said with 100% certainty but as he sired quite a few litters with always the same outcome I think it is most likely.


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## jacknjill (May 21, 2015)

Hey guys, sorry but how in the world do I post my own thread/questions???


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## Sabine (May 21, 2015)

jacknjill said:


> Hey guys, sorry but how in the world do I post my own thread/questions???


By clicking on "new thread" on the left when you are in the section you want to post in.


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## jacknjill (May 21, 2015)

Hello, can anyone here tell me how to start my own post? I can't find it.


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