# Conan the Bunbarian & Xena Bunnier Princess



## Troller

Hi, my name is Michael and I'm 37 and work the nightshift in security. I've been surrounded by pets all my life but can't say I'm a pet person until about 2 years ago. My wife loves pets and while at a store I saw this tremendously sized rabbit (I believe now it was either a Conti or Flemish mix) and was mystified. I carried this strange feeling for a year and in that time saw my sister and a friend who owned house rabbits and realized that these great creatures can in fact be handled outside farm situations and make good pets. I was hooked.

About September I asked to get a rabbit for my birthday and my wife, who was a little worried, went with it. Conan, a blue flemish giant buck, entered our lives and he's such a joy. Though I'm positive he hearts my wife way more then me I'm totally enthused to have this little 13lb. Ball of furry fun in my life. He was set to be a loner, with me planning not to neuter but my wife felt more comfortable with fixing him so I went along with it. Since he got neutered I reconsidered my stance on him being a lone housebun and after much convincing the wife we now welcome Xena into our family. 

So Xena, a fawn flemish doe, came home today to the house that Conan and two cockatiels live in. The vet gave her a clean bill of health except for some teariness in the eyes that most likely is stress related but should be monitored going ahead. She's beautiful and took to her pen pretty well, already lamb-chopping and using her litter box (though she peed on her hay). The only negative is that she's 18 weeks old and the vet won't spay her until 24 weeks so bonding will be out for some time. 

Now I know initial cage-to-cage meetings don't rate for much, and the fact that Xena is young and Conan is only 3 weeks into neutered means no real connection is being formed, I liked their interaction. Xena was relaxed and curious about her environment but paid a bit of mind to Conan when his nose came peeking in to her cage by nose bumping him and I believe I saw her lick him. For his part his ears were up and forward while his but was down, so I believe that body language means very curious. He circled her cage, honked a bit and was more playful with me surprisingly (either he was happy or just wanted to be. Reassured he still had his humans affections). They both ate near each other comfortably, lay close enough to each other cage side by side and didn't seem agitated in each others presence. So far so good day one. 

One thing that worries me is that while their cages are side by side and not close enough to physically interact or harm each other, that's not the case when one of them will be out for exercise time and their little noses fit across the bars. I'll monitor and guess find a way to block them further if it should come to be necessary.


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## Moochyesh

they both look beautiful!!!


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## qtipthebun

Huge Xena fan, so I'm loving the name. They're both so pretty!


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## Chrisdoc

they both look lovely and so relaxed with each other. Love the names too. Just keep your eye on them and if you see any agression, just make sure they can´t get to each other. I can´t wait until you get to the stage where you can bond, I bet they´ll look great together. I love the big buns but don´t have space for them. I am looking forward to hearing more about them.


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## Troller

My wife claims Conan seems happier having another rabbit around. We'll see. Xena took to her litter box right away and I moved the hay to the other side and so far no peeing on it. I had to clean the room today, an event my wife calls The Day of Bunny terror since I use the vaccum. Xena got so scared I thought she had somehow jumped out of her cage since she completely disappeared. Turns out she lodged herself behind a skinny cabinet that I thought the opening too small for her to get behind. Boy was I wrong! Got her out with minimum fuss and put a scrap coroplast barrier up. Hope it works. 

Besides Conan trying to get her out of her cage last night (we pretend he was trying to rescue her from her wrongful imprisonment) all's been pretty quite with both buns relaxing around. Though let me tell you, Xena seems to be a champion flopper. With sound effects and dramatic movements and all. Puts Conan to shame


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## Deliciosa

I do security too, but I don't think I could ever do graveyards. I'd drink way too much coffee. 
Love the names, lovely buns. Hope they bond well.


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## qtipthebun

I'm the type of bunny-mommy that should never ever have children because if the way I spoil my bunny is any indication, I'd have some bratty children. Q gets MOVED before I vacuum. I pick her up and take her into the bathroom where she can have two closed doors between herself and the loud scary machine! I don't have the heart to train her to get used to it. 

I think we need Xena flop videos.....


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## Chrisdoc

Mine hates Sundays too, that´s cage cleaning day. I have to lock them somewhere else or I can´t anything done. They hate the vac as well.


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## Ilovemyrabbit

Aww just read through your blog, &#9829; the names especially Xena's. Good luck with the bonding. I'm looking forward to hearing more about both of them!


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## Troller

So the last few days have been interesting. Xena is a pleasure, she seems to really like her new home and she enjoys eating whatever we give her. The breeder gave her small tastes of everything her mother ate so she's good with nearly all vegetables and fruits thought we don't push it. Conan likes to rattle her cage, meanwhile Xena likes to flop next to his. They looked adorable lying side by side a few times. We had to experiment with setting her hay down since she loved just spreading it out around her litter box, and the hay manger had to be positioned a few times so she wont dump it everywhere. Xena is also friendlier then Conan, though it could be that me and the wife are far more relaxed this time then we were when we first got Conan.

I'm amused that my wife has so taken to Xena. I swear she claimed Xena has her own, and she already gets more attention from Conan then I do. Heh, I'm a bunny person for sure but it sure appears that they're not as crazy for me . My wife sits in the pen with Xena, pets her for hours and has just been completely smitten with her. I''m also entertained that Conan has gotten friendlier, desiring more pets and attention. Jealousy maybe or that we also have Xena's scent on us? Who knows we're happy thought. 

The negative though is we found out Xena has coccidia. We we're prescribed two days of marquis, an no other instructions so i guess it can't be that bad. Will of course monitor.


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## Chrisdoc

Conan has such a gorgeous colour and such lovely ears. THey do look settled next to each other so hoping for good things in the future. Sorry to hear she´s not so well but hopefully, she´ll be better in no time. 

Adore the picture of Conan flopped out, those are big thumpers lol.


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## Troller

Truth is she's displaying no signs of anything wrong, eats well, poops well and flops especially well so we're not that worried but we are on top of it.


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## qtipthebun

Giant bunny in a flowerpot!!

They're such a beautiful couple!


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## Troller

Thanks for all the compliments but only the breeders can take credit for raising such beautiful animals. Flemish come in seven standard recognized colors; Black, Blue, White, Fawn, Sandy, Light Gray and Steel Gray. Some of the colors are real particular to get (Blue's & Fawns) so its why breeders discourage mixing because it was so hard to achieve these colors in the first place. Conan was my birthday present and I was going to get a Black buck (after all Conan the Barbarian has black hair), my wife wanted a Fawn so we compromised on Blue. It's a shallow thing I know and usually I'm not that way but, well birthday wish and all. It's funny because my wife was actually nervous about having a rabbit in the first place but it was my present and I was so excited. Now she loves rabbits and can't see herself not having one. Xena is my early Valentine's present, and it's a combo of her being a gift, the color being my wife's favorite, and me constantly bringing up my desire for a second rabbit that my wife grudgingly allowed it. Let me say its incredibly odd me wanting a pet and my wife fighting against it, it's like we switched minds or something.

The Vet gave us marquis to give by syringe two doses, one for each day. My wife (she's a nurse so I ask her to handle all medical needs) mashed the first dose into a banana and fed it to Xena who ate it happily. I don't think her case is serious, and many rabbits are carriers of coccidia without showing symptoms. Coccidia can get bad, but only if its really far gone and attention isn't being paid. The only thing that frightened us was to make sure Xena didn't leave any stray poops that Conan might go for.


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## Troller

Well nothing that new to add since bonding is a spay and months away, but my wife wanted me to put up this video of the two loafing about. The differences between them are staggering. Xena eats hay like a machine, samples nearly everything we give her and enjoys fruit! We call her Conan's country wife since she's from PA. Meanwhile Conan is a city slicker from Long Island and has very picky tastes to what he'll eat, preferring his pellets far more and only a select variety of greens. It's weird that they are so very different in many respects, even petting, but get along it seems very well.


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## Troller

My comp crashed while I was trying to install the programs from keeping it crashing...sigh, so I'll link the video I mentioned as soon as I come home from work tomorrow. 

Yeah Lisa, it really is fun observing the differences. I guess us humans get so self involved that we label an animal a certain way and subconsciously believe they should all follow the template, in this case 'rabbit'. They certainly display personalities and interests/disinterests. I'm having a blast seeing more into rabbit then simply it's type. Hell, I'm even teaching people around me the joy of having them in your life.


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## whitelop

Xena is so pretty! I love her color and of course Conan is a very handsome boy too. I love the picture of him in the flower put! They compliment each other quite well. 

I have to also say that I love your pink bathroom! hahaha. I have a pink tub and pink sink, only the toilet is white. I guess both of our bathrooms were renovated between the 60's and 70's. I love it. I wish I could find a pink toilet.


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## Troller

Sigh...You noticed that did you. My wife mentioned not to use that pic because people will see our bathroom and I tut-tutted "people wont see our bathroom they'll just look at the cute bunny". Doh! Yeah the decor is definity 70's, along with the canary yellow faux marble sink in a pink bathroom. Our other bathroom is blue, blue toilet and all. The trimmings in the apt are outdated but its a nice space in a great neighborhood for a decent price so as a manly man I have to accept my bathroom looks like something featured in a power puff girls episode. Oh well.

And to have this connect with rabbits, I'm surprised by just how much Xena likes to be in the bathroom, something Conan avoided. Maybe shes trying to mark it as her own. I have to keep her away from the bathtub as I plan to use that for the first introduction and now I'm worried with her interest there, will she also be want to hang out in the kitchen? Guess I'll have to block that off too which is difficult since it has two entrances.


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## Chrisdoc

The pictures were great but I hadn´t noticed the bathroom only the gorgeous bunny. And guess what, when Morgan mentioned it, I just had to go back and take another look. I love the retro stuff and you just can´t get those same colours nowadays. it´s all very sparse and monochrome. And now you´re letter on that you watch the power puff girls....oh, dear me lmao.


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## whitelop

Have either one of them been in the blue bathroom? If they haven't, you could use that as their meeting spot. Does Conan go into the kitchen?


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## holtzchick

Hahaha, the coloured bathrooms remind me of Europe! Now you need the pink european toilet paper!  

Since I got Hippogryff to bond with Phoenix, I purposely sectioned off the whole upstairs so that eventually I could use that as a neutral territory for bonding. Perhaps you should section off a certain room or something. How are they doing through the bars and such, are they somewhat getting along. When are you planning on introducing them. 

Sorry I can`t use the question mark, my computer switched the keyboard over to french!! LOL.


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## Troller

Whitelop: My blue bathroom is what I think is called a half a bath, to small for me to comfortably fit and still manage Flemish Giants. Conan was has been in the kitchen, about 6 months ago and for very brief spurts. He didn't like being there and hasn't been in it for months now even with it being open to him. 

holtzchick: I live on a single floor, so no option there. I have the kitchen, my bedroom, a place where Conan has snuck into but can't claim it as his own since we boot him out and I'd rather use it as a last resort. I also have my friends house but its a 20 min drive and I'd rather use it for the first big intro and then be more comfortable at home. 

As for how they get along so far, here's the video (though it's not as good as I thought. I must have confused the pics for it.). [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfx_Y-6m4XE[/ame]


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## Nancy McClelland

Our 19 pound Checkered Giant thinks the vacuum is her play toy.


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## Chrisdoc

I just can´t believe how long her legs are...wow. 

I so laughed as they´re like reflections of each other in the pics.

First one: he´s cleaning, she´s cleaning
Second one: he´s sprawled out, she´s sprawled out

They are definitely a good looking couple. I cannot wait to see them both together cuddling...it will be so worth waiting for.


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## Troller

Nancy McClelland said:


> Our 19 pound Checkered Giant thinks the vacuum is her play toy.



Conan and Xena are scared of it, though he does like to pee on it if he gets the chance.


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## holtzchick

They look great together!!!


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## Troller

I'm still about two months away from bonding them but I got to wondering. When the time comes to take Xena to the vet for spay, should I/do I bring Conan as well? I've tried to read up on this but most don't cover unbounded neigborly rabbits going places together. My thinking is no, why stress Conan but wanted to hear what others think.


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## whitelop

They look so comfortable together. It seems like they were meant to be! 

I'm not sure if you should take him to the vet or not. I guess maybe it would help with him smelling the same as her, but then again she has like a week or so of healing time before she can be let out of the cage. So I probably wouldn't take him and put him through that.


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## Troller

So nothing real new going on, mostly getting to know the rabbits better. Xena is very expressive, doing a snort and a thump when she doesn't like something. We've noticed she occasionally makes a single honking noise for no reason we can discern (not food or action related, does it when she's walking about). Also she begs for food which is so damned adorable, a thing Conan is far too dignified to do.

Conan meanwhile has been fluctuating moods. Last few days he seemed mopey and disinterested in things, today he's binkying like crazy and out and about having fun. I guess he was just having one of those days. Also because of Xena's proximity he's been abusing his stuffed penguin. Not humping, just grooming and biting it like crazy. Almost feel bad for the stuffie, which reminds me I gotto get a stuffie for Xena.


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## Troller

It's been a week plus and things appear to be going smoothly. Each rabbit gets at least four hours out time. Xena is quite the character. She's very vocal, grunting quietly when she's nearby me. Thumping at take off for a run, or when she stops a run, to say she doesn't like something or just at odd times. She also snorts on occasion, again usually to indicate some displeasure over something. She begs for food, once in a while follows me around, and eats drinks and poops like crazy. Over all a happy bun, but she doesn't look like she's putting on weight strangely. The only thing I don't like about her is when Im cleaning her litter box she soils the empty space. Can't she wait a bit, sheesh. 

Conan is is usual stoic self. Quiet, some days out and about and others days cage bound. He did an odd thing the other day, peed outside his litter box and has been pooping pills outside it a little more which made my wife panic a little thinking that the territorial markings have begun. I explained how well we've had it and if she heard some of the stories other people suffer through she'd kiss the rabbits even more for their good behavior. Lately Conan has been shedding a great deal, I guess his seasonal moot maybe, so I've been grabbing him up for a proper brushing. It's hard to tell if he likes or dislikes it. I mean he struggles a bit, but then he seems to like it as well. I think a lot of what he does with us is like that. It's hard to give him treats but once he gets them he's into it, so it just seems like I'm dealing with a very stubborn bunny who just wants things done at his own time, I.E. treats to be fed in his cage and rubs to take place only there. 

Together they seem real calm. During her out time she lies by the side of his cage and he obliges her in turn. Part of why I think he's pooping more often out of his litter box is because he doesn't like leaving her side. She also gravitates to him. Granted this can be wishful thinking on my part. Conan does rattle his cage at times and looks manic to get out so It might just be aggression. Xena however is completely calm and repaxed around him. Today I'm setting up the appointment to have her spayed in two weeks and hopefully by next month I can start bonding and finally get an indication if I'm making things up in my head or they really are getting along.

Other little tid bits. I cleaned their cages on Monday and when I saw Xena had peed in the spot her litter box is usually at I went into frantic clean up mode to give her back her litter box before more torrential urine flowed, forgetting to keep the gate in place. This lead to the rabbits almost having their first fateful meeting (Conan was in the living room and Xena made it out to the hallway). Luckily tragedy, or triumph depending on who you ask, was averted and I more quickly then I've have was able to pick her up. Conan never saw a thing! This week also saw my main bird man Oberon of our cockatiels Oberon and Titania turn out to be a female. We know this for a fact because she laid eggs and is being a proper mother to them. It's both cute and sad because they'll never get fertilized so it's a week long of stress for my former buddy now female bestie. Also it means that me, Conan and our Betta fish Haiku are outnumbered by the females now! Here are some pics just cause...


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## Chrisdoc

They do look as though they are getting on even in their cages. I love the pictures of them lounging about and great that the birds have laid eggs. 

Litter boxes, why do they not like you messing with them, they have to be there supervising lol. 

I did laugh so much as him abusing his stuffy, he´s obviously quite taken with her but can´t show his affection lol.


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## Tauntz

Hi!
So far this is working for me with the litter box area, I bought two! So I prepare the new litter box with the paper litter & then grab their "dirty" litter pan out & immediately switch in the new clean pan! My buns jump right in to check it out & make sure it is properly comfortable before giving their seal of approval! lol

Love your cockatiels! I'm owned by birds too! My birds are the reason I started looking into bunnies as I wanted another furry family member that I did not have to fear would harm my birds should they accidentally meet. Love cats but know they are too dangerous to have them with birds, even their saliva can be deadly to birds & those claws that can leave unnoticeable but deadly punctures! Love dogs but my house is too small & not in a good area (too many high traffic roads) for a dog. After much research into various pets I went back to the bunny I wanted as a child & never got! So now I have two Jersey Wooly bunnies to love!


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## qtipthebun

Oh, the gotta-pee-NOW move. Q-tip plays that all the time. I'll offer her the litter box before I take it to clean, she looks at me like I'm crazy, and as soon as I'm gone, she pees in the spot where it was. I think she just likes to feel smarter than her human.

I'm loving the bunny/bird combo. My roommate's Indian Ringneck is TERRIFIED of the bunny. Then again, he's terrified of everything....Conan looks so cute with the birds just chilling around him.

I love their updates....one of my favorite bunny blogs!


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## Tauntz

lol Think most "pets" like to outsmart their humans! So much fun! lol

Birds are afraid of new things &/or animals & things they don't know. My birds have not "officially" met my buns. My bunny breeder has an African grey parrot. So the buns were used to some bird noise so they don't get excited or notice much when my birds are a bit noisy! I think if I were to ever get them close the birds would probably not be thrilled with bunnies in the family. I will probably gradually let them get closer without being able to have contact with each other just so they become accepting of each other & not fearful. Don't want bunny or birdy upset or afraid. Always keep everyone supervised if they are out of their cage, buns & birds! I'm a big worry wart! lol


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## Troller

qtipthebun said:


> I'm loving the bunny/bird combo. My roommate's Indian Ringneck is TERRIFIED of the bunny. Then again, he's terrified of everything....Conan looks so cute with the birds just chilling around him.



Birds just chilling! No my good man, those birds are more like dogs. They constantly want to hang out on you, begging for head rubs, drinking our water (Titania tries to steal sips of coffee and even succeeds sometimes), grubbing after our food. Heck half the reason the rabbit cage cleaning takes as long as it does is because they get in Conan's cage and in their course of stealing hay and pellets they poop up a storm in there. But it is cute that when the bird aren't jealous of the rabbits getting head rubs they try to help us groom Conan & Xena. It only goes bad when the rabbit's try to sniff these little guys.


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## Chrisdoc

I am just trying to imagine all this, they sound like a real hoot...you should get it on video so we all laugh at you trying to sort them all out lol.


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## Troller

Breaking News: While I'm at work my wife has an off day and I get the following pic texted to me with the message "Very Bad Bunny." Apparently Xena somehow managed to pull down the spot check waste basket on top of her pen and spill the contents on her freshly cleaned area. I tell you, how do you punish such a pretty face, or rather how do you do a time out when they're already in their cage.


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## holtzchick

Hahaha Awh love the pictures and good updates. 

Hmmm it's not a bad idea to leave the litter boxes soiled for a bit longer and frequently swap them so they have the chance to be in the other rabbits soiled box and get used to scents. I love the birds With the buns they're adorable. If the female has laid eggs and they will not be fertilized it's a really good idea to crush them up into her food because she needs to make up for the lost calcium. 

Your buns are gorgeous together! I can't wait until the bond (easier said than done :/)


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## qtipthebun

I love her face in that. She's like "hey! Look what I did!!"
I can't imagine friendly birds who would want head rubs! This little guy here was a rescue, and terribly abused before my roommate got him. He's still young, but he's ridiculously afraid of hands. I'm not sure I'd know what to do if a bird wanted to PLAY!!!


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## Chrisdoc

I think it´s more like "hey, what you looking at, it was there, what did you expect". Yes, humans told off for leaving it where she could reach...a bunny does what a bunny has to do lol. She is so darn cute, who could get mad at her.


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## Troller

agnesthelion said:


> Hahahaha what a gal. I would punish the owner instead for leaving the waste basket within her reach!



Uhh...kind of hard to do considering I was the one who left it there. I guess I'll have to punish myself. But in my defense it wasn't really in reach, I mean the angle she's have to stretch out over the lip...yeah...It was clean up day so I was tired and...nevermind. 



holtzchick said:


> Hmmm it's not a bad idea to leave the litter boxes soiled for a bit longer and frequently swap them so they have the chance to be in the other rabbits soiled box and get used to scents. I love the birds With the buns they're adorable. If the female has laid eggs and they will not be fertilized it's a really good idea to crush them up into her food because she needs to make up for the lost calcium.



Is the first to make sure she doesn't pee in the area her litter box has been removed for cleaning or for bonding? Usually the litter box stays unaltered for about 3 days and then I throw the whole thing out and clean. Seems they're all right with that and it coincides with trash day. If it's for bonding I intend to do that but waiting for her to be spayed and a bit healed up.
As for the eggs, yeah I read about that but I also thought we have to wait a bit for the bird to realize its not going to hatch lest you cause psychological damage to the poor bird?



qtipthebun said:


> I can't imagine friendly birds who would want head rubs! This little guy here was a rescue, and terribly abused before my roommate got him. He's still young, but he's ridiculously afraid of hands. I'm not sure I'd know what to do if a bird wanted to PLAY!!!



Believe it. I will get some video footage tomorrow or when possible (this unlike catching the rabbits doing cute things is too easy) and you will see I'm not dealing with birds, I'm dealing with a dog with feathers.

Thank you all for the fine compliments to Xena. My wife was really happy today because Xena sat around with her while she crocheted, and at one point my wife held her by the window and Xena looked on for quite a bit. She might be missing outside, and I should figure out how to get them some outside time. I'm just so paranoid about them catching something from the outside parks or untreated yards, let alone corralling them around.


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## Tauntz

"As for the eggs, yeah I read about that but I also thought we have to wait a bit for the bird to realize its not going to hatch lest you cause psychological damage to the poor bird?"

If you take out or destroy the eggs too soon the bird will continue to lay eggs thus depleting her body's much needed calcium levels. Most avian vets I've talked to advise allowing the eggs to stay in the cage until the female loses interest & realizes they are infertile & not going to hatch. For cockatiels I think the average time is around 21 days, going from depleted memory so.... lol

Originally Posted by qtipthebun: 
I can't imagine friendly birds who would want head rubs! This little guy here was a rescue, and terribly abused before my roommate got him. He's still young, but he's ridiculously afraid of hands. I'm not sure I'd know what to do if a bird wanted to PLAY!!!

Reply: Poor little guy. Many birds if not too badly mentally/emotionally scarred from abuse can be helped to become a loving companion bird. It does take much time, patience & consistent working with him/her. Play time with birds can be fun. It is good for them to be able to amuse themselves while alone in their cage but also should have some interactive playtime with their person. I enjoy teaching so I teach my birds "tricks." They also will teach you some of the games they like to play if given the opportunity. Birds love to be with their people or flock!


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## Tauntz

Troller said:


> Breaking News: While I'm at work my wife has an off day and I get the following pic texted to me with the message "Very Bad Bunny." Apparently Xena somehow managed to pull down the spot check waste basket on top of her pen and spill the contents on her freshly cleaned area. I tell you, how do you punish such a pretty face, or rather how do you do a time out when they're already in their cage.



I can just hear Xena now, "I was just trying to be helpful making sure you hadn't thrown out any good bunny toys accidentally!" lol


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## holtzchick

Troller said:


> Uhh...kind of hard to do considering I was the one who left it there. I guess I'll have to punish myself. But in my defense it wasn't really in reach, I mean the angle she's have to stretch out over the lip...yeah...It was clean up day so I was tired and...nevermind.
> 
> 
> 
> Is the first to make sure she doesn't pee in the area her litter box has been removed for cleaning or for bonding? Usually the litter box stays unaltered for about 3 days and then I throw the whole thing out and clean. Seems they're all right with that and it coincides with trash day. If it's for bonding I intend to do that but waiting for her to be spayed and a bit healed up.
> As for the eggs, yeah I read about that but I also thought we have to wait a bit for the bird to realize its not going to hatch lest you cause psychological damage to the poor bird?
> 
> Believe it. I will get some video footage tomorrow or when possible (this unlike catching the rabbits doing cute things is too easy) and you will see I'm not dealing with birds, I'm dealing with a dog with feathers.
> 
> Thank you all for the fine compliments to Xena. My wife was really happy today because Xena sat around with her while she crocheted, and at one point my wife held her by the window and Xena looked on for quite a bit. She might be missing outside, and I should figure out how to get them some outside time. I'm just so paranoid about them catching something from the outside parks or untreated yards, let alone corralling them around.




Oh sorry I meant for bonding yeah. As for peeing in her area my buns have done that too but I find its sporadic not really each time :/ 

And I didn't think that it could psychological damage to the bird. I was on a bird forum before and I never really had that come up. We used to have parakeets so I asked what to do if they happen to have eggs bc it turns out we had got a female for our male lol


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## HolyHandGrenade

Aww, silly Xena! (and silly Michael for leaving that there)/ I am always after my boyfriend to make sure not to leave stuff anywhere below OUR waist height, because Monty can reach it if she tries. Well, not quite that high, but you gotta give someone a good clear picture of what's not okay. He frequently stacks things on top of her crate while sweeping the floor around it, then walks off without putting them back down. Someday she'll end up destroying something by trying to pull it down into her crate, because she's big enough now to juuuust stick her nose out of the top.


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## Troller

I know this is a rabbit page and blog, but I wanted to show evidence of my bird-dog. This one is Titania, and we distracted her from trying to drink my wife's coffee by petting her instead. [ame]http://youtu.be/Fw89uAiPQrk[/ame]. 

And just to keep it rabbit, pics of Xena lounging in her stinky spot.


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## Tauntz

Oh, love the video of Titania! She is beautiful & one contented cockatiel with that Tiel massage! lol Xena is gorgous too! Lovely feathered & furred family! Thanks so much for sharing them with us!


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## lyndym

Wow, what gorgeous rabbits! I'll be keeping an eye on your blog, we're going through the whole bonding thing now too.


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## qtipthebun

...that bird is enjoying being snuggled. I can't even...I'm fighting to wrap my head around that concept. That is the cutest thing ever. This bird is so scared of hands, if he even sees your hands, he'll go scooting off away from you. I love the feathered and fluffed family member updates!


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## Chrisdoc

Oh, that is so sweet, that bird is amazing, can´t believe how much she loves being stroked and petted...Xena is lovely, yes that´s a trait most of them have, napping in their litter trays, mine do the same.


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## Troller

Today's Rabbit Lesson: It's very important to remember that each rabbit is different...Obvious right, well except I don't seem to get that . There's a small shelf under the bird cage that we keep pet supplies in, all in either plastic containers or a back. Craisins shrink wrapped and in individual packages. Now Conan has no interest in the shelf, sure he'll snoop around every so often but it's uninteresting. This has been the status quo for months. Xena on however managed to pull out the Craisins, and just, them from a bag and chew through the box to eat them. Now I don't know how many she got, I think only a few since the box was still kind of full and I know they're not her favorite treats from past experience and seeing how there was a small cluster of them left. 

My wife chalks it up as her being smarter then Conan. I don't think so, I just think Conan is stubborn and knows things will eventually come to him. Xena on the other hand is a wild child and far Noreen outgoing. Either way she keeps me on my toes after I got complacent after Conan the worlds generally most easy rabbit to care for.


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## Chrisdoc

She is a naughty bunny...some buns will just not let go and have to get to something they see...they will figure it out. Others are much more relaxed about things and aren´t bothered. Looks like you´ve landed with one of each. 

And I bet she looked so pleased there munching away at her craisins.....how can you be mad with her when she´s been smart enough to figure out how to get in there lol.


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## Kristin777

Love seeing your cockatiels!  I have 4 large parrots as well, but they didn't interact too much with my bunny. My bunny used to kick my (evil) cat out of his sleeping spots though. It was hilarious to watch! He is such a bratty kitty...especially when he was younger, so seeing an itty bitty loppy scare him was priceless. Man, did she have attitude!


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## Troller

Yeah it does seem birds have attitudes bigger then themselves. I also read that in rabbits when it comes to other animals. I decided to combine the two and reap the headaches 

Either Xena is feeling a hell of a lot more comfortable or the hormones are kicking in. I though she'd been pretty well behaved, but I discovered what looks like dried pee stains on the cover of the pet room couch, and under the cover she pulled back the corner coverings to chew the sofa itself! Who knows how long that's been going on since the couch is still covered and the stuffing is his beneath it. Sigh...Bunny 500's are fine, but why 5am? Yeah damned crepuscular I know. On a night off I decided to let her out at night and she decided to repay the favor by rattling the birds cage and frightening them. However I think this was revenge for Titania (cockatiel) invading he pen space and chilling on her hay. I got Titania eating plants, drinking out our betta fish Haiku's tank and just being extra cloying cause her cage partner Oberon is being territorial and unfriendly guarding her six eggs.

And Conan...has been a good boy . Oh sure he's molting and resists the grooming and handling; and as usual appears very cage centric, but otherwise him and the the male Betta fish have been a sanctuary of tranquility as compared to the wild ladies of the house.


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## HolyHandGrenade

How old is she? Could just be the hormones rearing their head. Monty seemingly out of nowhere started peeing all over the kitchen right before I grounded her to await her spay. Mostly all better now. Ah, bunnies. they get away with murder because they're so **** sweet


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## Troller

Well I spoke to soon. An hour after I posted previously and I come home to find a pee stain and poop next to Xena's cage. Conan I guess left a message. I hope it was a one time thing. Figures, that boy never takes a compliment well...

Xena is a week shy of 6 months now, and her spay is scheduled for Thursday. Well, maybe spay depending if the Vet finds her weight adequate. Part of me is dreading this (way more worry then Conan's fix) and part of me wants to get this done so I can start bonding in a few weeks. I'm a terrible person sometimes forcing all this drama on these bunnies.


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## agnesthelion

Yup it sounds like Xenas hormones are starting to appear. And who knows, maybe Conan can sense her hormones raging and therefore that's why he marked. Rabbits are so driven by hormones you never know. I know he's neutered but it could be a reactionary thing to her.

I'm sure the spay will go fine. Here are the tips that really helped me. Don't let them keep her overnight. Make sure they send you home with metacam. Bring something of hers with to the vet to help her comfort level. Make sure she has easy access to her litterbox females don't want to move much after.

Best of luck and let us know how it goes!


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## Nancy McClelland

Your bird is amazing. We had one for nine years and if you tried to rub or touch him, you bled.


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## Troller

Today's the day. In about an hour I'm taking Xena to the Vet to get spayed. I'm not worried since I have a very good and respected Vet, and I have a stupid sense of naiveness when it comes to things working out when I put things in trusted hands. I am however anxious. Anxious about taking care of Xena well when she gets back and in several weeks about beginning bonding. Well wish us luck (mostly her) and a speedy recovery (all her).


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## Chrisdoc

THinking about Xena and sure everything will go well. I´m sure that there will lots of advice for you from those who have girls. My boys were neutered in October and I was so amazed how quickly they were back to normal. However, they do say that girls take a little longer but she´s a healthy bunny and you´ll be spoiling her rotten. Let us know when she´s home and settling back in. lots of nose rubs and kisses for her from my boys.


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## agnesthelion

Best of luck Xena! Sounds like you have a great vet. Things should be fine.
Let us know!


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## HolyHandGrenade

Good luck! If you want to refresh on Monty's healing process, just go back a couple pages in my blog. I was purposely pretty detailed so it would hopefully be helpful in the future


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## Troller

Yeah Missy, you really do write a good blog with helpful details. It's something my wife mentioned when we were talking about Xena's care. I only wish I had it in me to be so informative. Well anywho, my Vet is the type that keeps them overnight, though they also have a tech around to make sure things to smoothly. The aids told me the Op went well and Xena (a few hours ago) was nibbling and making a good recovery. Tomorrow at noon I get her back and then the real nail biting begins...

Thanks everyone for the well wishes!


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## agnesthelion

How are things with Xena?


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## Troller

Surprisingly it seems Xena handled the spay real well. better then Conan handled his neuter and he was out and about pretty early. She's eating as normal, drinking fine and pooping (their smaller but consistent). In fact, she seems kind of antsy with us babying her so much by keeping her in her pen for longer hours. Today me and the wife at separate times let her out for an hour and she even binky'd. Strange girl, or just really good pain killers and recovery power. 

All our animals are doing well. Oberon, the bird mama, finally has stopped laying eggs (final count was six) and seems to have stopped nesting them. Poor thing, but it just wasn't meant to be. Titania is her normal outgoing self. We arranged the sofa a bit differently in the living room and it appears the rabbits are more comfortable visiting us up there on occasion and we are positively ecstatic about it. Well, unless they start peeing there. Time to share some pics and vids. The ones of Titania is after she freshly got showered (she likes to invade the shower while my wife is using it. Silly bird). The rabbit ones are pretty self explanatory. The one of Conan goes sideways, and I'm not sure how to correct it but I thought it was still cute to include. 
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxPz3YeupzM[/ame] 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTScxWFdZ5o[/ame] 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxKXASNAw20[/ame]


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## Ilovemyrabbit

Wow! both bunnies are cute as ever! I loved seeing them nom down their veggies. I'm glad Xena got through the spay alright is she trying to chew or lick that bare spot?.


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## Tauntz

Good thoughts & prayers for Xena's surgery & a fast recovery! And for bunny parents! Hard not to worry, at least until it is all over & sure everything is okay & back to normal!

Okay, one off topic question: I'm replying to the post above but the date listed on it says 3-14-2013 with a time of 8:55 am but today's date is March 17th, St. Patrick's Day. Is there a way to fix the date or is this a post I missed & am replying long after the original post about Xena's surgery? Thanks & sorry for the off-topic addition here.


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## Tauntz

Well, just after I posted the above post, I got the update on Xena! So glad it turned out well. Sounds like she is well on her way to her old self! Don't know why the update post did not show up until my post posted. Its weird. Wonder if there is something wrong causing it?


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## Tauntz

Thanks for the great video updates as well! Looks like both Conan & Xena were enjoying their veggies! Glad Titania has finished egg laying! Think everyone will be happier now! Scritches to Titania & gentle cuddles to Xena & Conan! So glad everybunny & birdy is doing okay there! Know you are relieved!


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## Chrisdoc

Oh, I love to see them together, their colour do so complement each other, they are two good looking buns. Great to see her recovering so well and eating her veggies like a good girl. Titania is so cute, just love her. 

That´s a big scar so hope she leaves it alone.


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## agnesthelion

Wow. Glad she is doing so wel!! That incision looks great. Just be careful letting her out to binky.. My vet instructed no movement for 7-10 days. I had to even confine her to one level on her condo. She did great too and I even called the vet a few days later to ask if I could give her some free run since she was doing so good (keeping her confined was harder than the surgery!) and they still said no. They said buns can even tear inside from too much activity so keep her confined.

Your birds re beautiful and I liked seeing the buns munching on their veggies. They make a handsome couple!


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## HolyHandGrenade

Her spay incision looks smaller than Monty's...lucky! I'm glad she's doing great  I love the videos, despite the sideways-ness  I try to make sure to keep my phone in landscape orientation so it doesn't upload funny.


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## Troller

Just bringing in some Conan love. My wife texted me this while I'm at work with the caption "Nanner chillin wit me. Hope you're appropriately jealous". Sigh...yes I am jealous and I think half the reason why I can never teach Conan his name is cause half the time she calls him Nanner! Hell, Conan was her idea for a name and now she's ruining it


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## agnesthelion

Aww that's cute though that she is enjoying your rabbit obsession. My hubby doesn't much. I mean, he goes and sees them and I know he likes them but not as much as me 
Nanners (which just autocorrected to manners) is a perfect nickname. Lol


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## holtzchick

hahaha. Thats so sweet  
It's okay, my boyfriend won the bunnies over by giving them banana's every morning, which up until the other day I was unaware of this!!! Explains why they always go in circles when he comes downstairs in the AM....


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## Troller

Well my wife is the pet person, loving all animals and if we had the time and space I'm sure we'd have a dozen more. Up until the rabbits I had no interest in pets and for the most part folks around me consider me to be pretty cold to animals. What can i say, something magical happened to me when I saw my first Flemish Giant. 

In other news, my wife by accident let Conan wander into Xena's pen (while she wasn't around). Sigh...she keeps doing things like this, not on purpose and nothing bad happened, but boundaries got to be kept especially when I'm gearing up to bond these guys. As my wife reports, Conan sniffed around very interested, even went into Xena's litter box but didn't do anything and just wandered his way back out. Looking at Xena all day, she's dead flopping around and didn't at all seemed disturbed that her territory had been breached while she was out.


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## Chrisdoc

Haha Michelle, he´s a sneaky one.

She´s a cool one is Xena, maybe she´s happy that he´s looking over her space...looks good to me for future relations. Can´t wait to see these two together, love them both.


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## agnesthelion

Michael that sounds like good news that they didn't seem bothered by each other at all. I think you are on your way to a bonded pair!


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## Kzbun

Just sort of read up on this blog a bit. Sounds like everything is going well! Yay!! :3


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## Troller

Hmm, Xena spent a lot more time in her cage then usual today. I hadn't given her last dose of metacam yet so it might have been that but I'm a paranoid sort and wonder if she was cage guarding.


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## agnesthelion

Troller said:


> Hmm, Xena spent a lot more time in her cage then usual today. I hadn't given her last dose of metacam yet so it might have been that but I'm a paranoid sort and wonder if she was cage guarding.



Nah, I wouldn't worry about that yet. It's more than likely her spay. And even IF she was getting protective of her cage...that's okay. It doesn't mean they will fight. My two never even got in one spat but there were times that they staked claim over certain things. Archie claimed Agnes's spot (he's alpha) which I thought would cause a fight but it didn't at all. So my point, they may go through times where thry are guarding or protecting something but that doesn't mean it will cause issues.


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## Troller

So I'm a roleplayer, playing tabletop games since I was a kid and well until adulthood. I don't have an extensive collection of books, but I do have enough to fill a very large bookshelf. Well my wife doesn't think to highly of the hobby, actually that's not fair, she's just not into it so my books are in another room while we have a lot of regular books between us, her more then me, and all those books are in the living room. Well my mistake was to put all my books in the pet room. Heh, you can see where I'm going with this. The roleplaying books I truly treasure are on the top shelves, while the ones that I care less for are on the bottom. Now I knew the rabbits would get to the bottom, what I didn't expect was the birds would bite at the ones I cherish. Sigh...anyway I don't bring this subject up to lament my damaged books since I did suspect it could happen, I bring this up because when I got in somehow Conan managed to pull a cardboard box set out from the shelf, and only the box set, and tore up the front. No biggie, I put it away. Later I let Xena out and she not only pulled out the very same box, but she opened it up, took out the cloth map, and preceded to go back to the cover box and scratch it up as well. I just find it curious that they chose the same box that was tightly placed in the shelf while other things were easier to get at. Plus, the fact that Xena managed to open it I find entertaining. 

And speaking of entertaining, I came in this morning to find Xena modeling her blanket. I mean i only wish I caught in time a pic of her wearing it like a hood, but with these pics you'll get the idea. Pardon the messy cage, its clean up day today.


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## Kzbun

Michael, you're a roleplayer? RL or Online, I wonder..

An that is a lovely blanket, Miss Xena!! Will you be modeling it again anytime soon?


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## Troller

RL. I've never really done that online, since I like the interaction aspect and video conferencing frustrates me.


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## Kzbun

Ah, curious. I'm more of an online one, though through text. I'm a writer, though my blogging isn't the best :3


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## Troller

Hey, I'm a freelance writer by desire if not quite by occupation, and I've always had a negative view on blogging. Mostly because I feel large portion of them are ego driven drivel. What can I say however, the buns got me...


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## Chrisdoc

Xena, the runway model...I can´t believe she just sat there with the blanket over her, it does look really good and you´ve got a great picture there of that cute face and those awesome ears. She´s looking really well after her spay. 

I think blogs are great when the people involved have a real interest in what they´re discussing and I think everyone on here will vouch for the fact that we´re all bunny obsessed so we always have loads to discuss apart from other day to day subjects which may come up. I hate blogs which are a bit like some facebook and twitter pages...who the heck cares what you had for breakfast, where you are right this minute, etc. I can´t get excited about that.


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## qtipthebun

The bunnies just wanted to share your hobby! I think it's great that you're raising geeky buns! Q-tip loves to "read" theory...her favorite is Marx...his books are just delicious. She's glad there are other geeky buns on the forum. I just had to explain to her that I don't have any roleplaying games, though. She wanted to try to nom on one.


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## agnesthelion

I bet that book both had a certain smell that thry both noticed.....or thry both wanted to read that book! Haha. Love the blanket on Xena. She's quite the model


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## Ilovemyrabbit

Xena is so adorable with that blanket on her.


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## Troller

This weekend I began the preliminary bonding tricks, switched out pillows then stuffed toys and blanket. Xena reacted to the new pillow by digging and chewing nearly right away and then leaving it alone. I think this is a bit significant since she never reacted to her own pillow at first. Conan had no reaction to anything. Tomorrow I plan to switch slightly used litter boxes. Friday is their big intro.


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## holtzchick

OOoooh, Good luck!! Let us know how it goes


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## Troller

So today I had the rabbits switch cages, and the fun ensued. Xena was loving Conan's (and her future) home. She explored, she trashed, she conquered. Meanwhile Conan only had his eyes on escape. Oh sure he would eat pellets from her food bowl, but he was bent on getting back to his cage. Things eventually died down and they relaxed, but you could tell Xena loved her circumstances while Conan only tolerated it. Both avoided the litterboxes, even though they were actually their own originals just in a different cage. Nonetheless I believe pooping did occur. 

Later in the eve when I was giving them their seperate run times, Conan figured out how to slide the NIC gate and the waiting Xena slipped in. I heard it happening and was able to intervene but they still met. Now I can't judge based on a second but they were side by side and looked fine. Granted they were focused on just passing each other but at least not at fighting each other. We'll see this Friday at their actual first date.


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## qtipthebun

Uh oh, they're already plotting against you!!


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## holtzchick

I'm excited to hear about their first meeting! That doesn't sound any bad body language so they should be okay. Then again, the longer they are together, the more nippy they tend to get.


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## Chrisdoc

Well, it sounds positive that they briefly met and there was no fur flying. Love how Xena so enjoyed being in Conan´s place and him wanting to get back to his own pad...they are so funny. 

Can´t wait for the start of their bunny dates....I´m already picturing them together


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## Troller

Today I restored the rabbits to their original cages. They again seemed a little shocked and took their time popping but otherwise all good. Funny though, after each ones play time they would run back to the wrong cage and realize 'oh wait, that's not my home'. So I guess they couldn't have been too traumatized by the experience. 

Oh, and me and the wife did our first rabbit nail trimming. Went way better then I thought it would, Conan was a champ and Xena put up a bit of struggle but no one was harmed (except for me with a few new nip bruises) and Tethys came back to be petted like nothing bad happened.


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## Troller

*Date I*

Their first bunny date occurred, and it was a resounding ok...at least I think. Now several sites mentioned to run it anywhere between 2min-30min (HRN actually chimed in at 30 if all was going well) so all in all it was a 15min meeting. For the most part they explored the kitchen surrounding, Conan was scared to come out the carrier then scared to hop the kitchen floor meanwhile Xena was everywhere. I gave them little treats to keep things jovial and I have to say for the first 10min things we're just indifferent. They would pass each other on occasion, but pay each other little mind. I had put a neutral litter box with some hay in the area and both played king of the hill so I quickly realized it was agitating them which one was in it so I removed it. Then they each took turns bowing the head looking for some grooming. It looked like they we're getting annoyed at the other when neither would respond so I tried to chill the situation by petting their noses myself. It kind of worked, kept them calm but a few moments after I removed my hand they'd both try to get under the other one and get nipped if they wouldn't respond. I stopped the majority of the nipping by either pushing them off or spraying them with water. They separated one last time so i took my moment, gave them a treat and put them back in their carriers. 

So, it wasn't true love but neither was it hate (I hope). What concerned me was their body language never seemed to indicate fight. Ears were always up in curiosity or awareness of some potential mishap. Tails never went up. A smidgen of circling and mostly just to get their heads under the others head. No humping whatsoever. Just nips, and many more attempted nips. In fact call me cautious, paranoid or whatever but the nips freaked me out the most because it would come lickity split with no absolute warning. I could handle humping way better and of course that didn't happen. No fur was pulled, I don't even think a nip connected too much but in like humping or something more overt I have no way to gauge how bad a nip can go or what it can turn into. I like to think I'm satisfied at how things went, especially since after I returned them I left Xena out of her cage (Conan was out all night in the pet room so its her turn) and she went right to the spot he was laying and laid down besides him on the outside and he continued to relax (I hope its not a game of I'm more relaxed then you which is of course bunny for I'm fighting you non physically). Again, this all could be good but I like to play it cautious and just say it didn't go bad. I'm going to try again tonight, and I'm debating whether i should take them on a car ride to my moms house and try there where it truly is neutral territory, though her kitchen is a little bit more cluttered and tricky to maintain control (a small table to hide under which will make me scramble). Either way, that was Date 1.


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## PaGal

I would be a nervous wreck especially with the nipping. I can only imagine it could also be more difficult if a true fight broke out with 2 large buns. With the little ones you could use a hand for each to separate but certainly not with flemmies. Although at the same time there is more of them to grab a hold of if needed. 

I don't know how you would tell the difference between relaxing or the I'm gonna show you I'm relaxed because you are nothing to me. Other than going by your gut and knowing your buns. 

I would look at it as a positive, it definitely would not be a negative in my book.


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## Troller

*Date II

*I decided not todo the car ride yet, saving that for when it's really needed and holding up my mother's or friends place as truly neutral ground should I need it. So I started again in my kitchen. Well this time it went less well. Still plenty of exploring and easy times for the first 10 minutes as they ignore each other, then the rest of it was spent head to head in who will groom whom first. I did try to relax them again by petting them myself, but it only delayed the inevitable confrontation. It seems Conan is the more aggressive one, while Xena is the reactive one. She thumped a few times to warn him or me, and when he kept coming she started a bit of boxing. For his part he nipped and actually pulled fur this time. Treats were liberally given which I think prevented truly ill will but it definitely seemed it did not go so well this time around. Patience I guess, I don't think I can call it true fighting yet but I'm not so sure its that far off. 

Body language is throwing me completely off however. Besides Xena's thumps and a few grunts, both rabbits appear calm and curious and not that wary of each other until the moment they start something, which I of course swiftly intervene. I sprayed a few times, which made each one take a turn at grooming themselves, in fact at one point they were grooming themselves at the same time a foot and half away from each other. Man I was so hoping for humping, again at least that's a clear sign. Some bonding articles suggest on your days off to do two sessions/dates, about 6-8 hours apart. Since I did one real early in the morning right before I went to sleep and I stay up real late I'm wondering if I should attempt a third one or just let them be for the night. Either way I guess patience is going to be needed. My biggest problem is figuring out when to let a little physicalness go and when to step in. I tell you all the articles and videos in the world help, but certainly don't give you clear cut answers like experience.


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## Troller

*Date III

*I decided to take the critters for a short ride, well the ride ran about half an hour more then intended. I don't know if that affects the bonding, if longer rides as a scare tactic is impacted negatively due to them getting 'settled' because of the length of time but nothing that can be done about it. Today my wife wanted to be part of the date, so she was designated treat giver. The date itself went better then Date II, the head butting started early and then for the large remainder of the time they went their separate ways. Could be because Xena focused on the wife and treats, while Conan was busy trying to escape. Can't say there was any breakthroughs, but the vibe was a bit more subdued. Though when they we're together you can tell each is strongly vying for dominance. Conan nipped, Xena tried boxing, but nothing came of it cause we were there to intervene. Maybe I'm being to handsy and not giving them enough time to establish the pecking order but I really don't want anything bad to happen. 

So 3 dates in two days, 15 minutes at a time. I'll do one more later today (rather tonight). Two tomorrow, and then I'll be working so it will be one a day. Then again if the wife is involved I could do two a day. If I see no progress in a week I'll either take them to a completely neutral territory or call in the big gun and ask the local shelter for assistance. In my unprofessional mind I think it's going well. I think their a typical duo and so it will just take time is all. I just hope I can pull it off in two months, before I leave on vacation.


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## holtzchick

Don't worry, you're right, it is very typical bonding behavior that they are exhibiting. It should subdue in a while, I would actually just keep doing the dates on the kitchen floor. I see no need to stress them, they're just trying to get used to each other. Maybe keep the dates a little shorter say 10 minutes but with great behavior as opposed to 15 with some nips. 

The biggest obstacle with my buns is the nipping so I understand where you're at. They will eventually sort it out but it definitely will take time. You might be able to get them bonded before you leave for vacation, just keep at it. I know it's tense when you're trying to ref the dates, you seem to be doing a great job though!


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## Troller

*Date IV*

Last night's date was shortened to 10min. Behavior between the two remained generally the same though the head to head and nipping we're spaced throughout instead of a solid few minutes. Seems Conan nips, Xena boxes, is how they break their groom me stalemate. 

Thanks for the advice and encouragement Michelle. I'm not in a hurry to bond, the vacation deadline is a hopeful deadline, I personally was set mentally for it to take many months since Conan never got to choose his bun wife. My wife will be around when I'm gone so she can continue the process while I'm away, I just don't want her to have to deal with the stress is all. I'm going slow and steady.


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## agnesthelion

Michael I was excited to get updated since I'm in DC I didn't know this was going on. Anyway, I have downtime in the hotel right now so I caught up.

Anyway...sounds pretty typical and I do see a lot of positive things going on. After all, it could be much worse. I do agree eith Michelle and avoid stressing just yet. Not the biggest fan of that unless buns are all out fighting.

Some things I did different than you (not saying one is right or wrong, just some suggestions to consider I switched cage bowls and toys and litterboxes for a few days before the first date and kept rotating them constantly.

Also, not sure how big your kitchen is but sometimes too big an area causes issues. I blocked off probably 1/4 of my bathroom. 

It sounds like grooming "war" you can try applesauce on the head. 

As far as nipping I wouldn't allow any nipping. Mounting can be allowed a little because even bonded buns mount, but nipping should never be a behavior that's acceptable. 

As far as date lengths....how far into them does the nipping/boxing start? Because my first couple dates were seriously maybe a minute or two. I just didn't want to even give them a chance to get there. Maybe shorten dates, pet the entire time, keep them from doing anything negative and see if you have progress that way too. I'm from the mindset that you want to have every meeting positive in the beginning so that's what they associate with each other.

But anyway, again just some things I did but I really think things are going good. I will say the boxing does concern me a bit. That stance is usually the "let's fight stance" so definitely keep an eye on that.

I think 2 months is a doable goal. Slow and steady wins the race


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## Troller

*Date V*

Had help from the wife this morning. All went well I think. They danced around each other a bit and Xena was annoyed (thumped and grunted) at Conan's pushyness but really at least the incidents of actual confrontation have perceivably lessened. Conan actually laid down and relaxed, a first for him and I don't believe it was to show off. The both appeared to be a little less wary so I think that's a good sign as well. 

Thanks for the advice Lisa. Just wanted to mention out of five dates I only used the car once and I don't think Im going to do it again unless things take a turn for the worse. Xena only boxes when Conan starts agressing with nips or this one time when she felt cornered and I quickly put a stop to it. I also cut off nipping as soon as I catch it so I am zero tolerance of that. I would go a smaller space but the kitchen is not that big, the bunnies are big, and I just can't maneuver in something smaller. 

I am curious however when did you guys start introducing food, toys and a litterbox? I did the litterbox on the first day and they fought over it so I took it away. I'm afraid to introduce anything at the moment as I don't want them to fight over it.


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## agnesthelion

Oh yes....I sometimes forget you are dealing with flemmies and not two small ones like mine  I'm sure the kitchen is fine!

As far as food and litterboxes, for me personally I didn't introduce those until we moved to NONneutral territory. I read one time that litterboxes and food etc are not neutral....so consider them territory in the sense that you don't want to bring those into the equation until you are ready to move them both to shared territory. That really resonated with me so I stuck to that advice and it worked. 

I do want to add that litterboxes definitely bring out territorialness. Even with my two, who never even spat once, when the boxes came into the picture Archie definitely claimed one and you could tell it was a big deal between them.


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## agnesthelion

Oh yes....I sometimes forget you are dealing with flemmies and not two small ones like mine  I'm sure the kitchen is fine!

As far as food and litterboxes, for me personally I didn't introduce those until we moved to NONneutral territory. I read one time that litterboxes and food etc are not neutral....so consider them territory in the sense that you don't want to bring those into the equation until you are ready to move them both to shared territory. That really resonated with me so I stuck to that advice and it worked. 

I do want to add that litterboxes definitely bring out territorialness. Even with my two, who never even spat once, when the boxes came into the picture Archie definitely claimed one and you could tell it was a big deal between them.


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## Chrisdoc

It does sound positive and I think slow is better sometimes. Kitchen likes it´s ideal for them, we small bunny owners sometimes forget how big yours are. I saw a massive one today in the newspaper, 3 stones and 8 pounds, that is one big bunny, posted the link on my blog. 

i definitely think you´re going in the right direction so it´s just patience and perserverance. Look forward to the next update.


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## Troller

*Date VI*

This one went very smoothly. At first neither one wanted to come out of their carrier and I didn't rush them. There were a few tense moments that ended with Xena thumping or grunting away but it did appear Conan was less pushy, looked like he only went to nip once and the rest if the time wandered around. The best moments came when they sniffed nose to nose at each other then quickly parted, and another moment where they laid down noses less then 2 inches away while I pet them. I decided that was the golden moment and put them away after. So in 3 days, 6 dates that went fairly well.

Chris, 3 stones and 8lb...that's a big rabbit. Was it a Continental or German Giant? I'll check you blog to find out. Mine's respectfully are 13lb and 12lb. My biggest fear is that Flemmies tend to get fat and the last thing I want to do is cut down on their life span. I truly love these little guys. 

Again, thanks for the info. One video I watched mentioned they should be a little bit hungry so treats will work better. I'm not so sure that's one to follow. Tried it at first and I think it might have made Conan more irritable, especially since its been a few months since I stopped the free flow pellets and rationed him. I've kept it at 15 minute dates since I started that way and will cut back if things to amiss but since there's incremental progress why stop. Plus, it's a major production to take those two out and set up the kitchen to be blocked off from rabbit escapes so why stress myself the time. With all I've read and watched it's sad there wasn't an exact magic formula for this


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## agnesthelion

Sounded like a great date! That is great they went nose to nose and parted. And then laid down. Awesome. Perfect time to seperate!

Oh yes I remember the work involved on dating. Even though my two are small, their dates were two floors up from where their cages were and I had to carry them seperate, block for bathroom, get treats.....sometimes to have the date last 5 minutes! Haha. Its worth it in the end.

Best of luck for things to continue on a positive path for you!


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## Troller

Forgot to mention my birds. Oberon is well, though I wish the wife would stop calling her Oberona. Sure she laid some eggs but she still my guy...err girl. However I want to bring up my little klutzy Titania...lord if an animal ever lacked a survival instinct it's her my little dog bird. 

Titania likes drinking from our glass, whatever we're drinking she wants a part of it. Well that's fine for water but coffee and other things are a no no, but it doesn't stop her trying. Well today we had an unattended cup of coffee and instead of waiting for us to tip it over for her to drink she tried to get at it herself. Bad move, since the cup is so narrow she fell in with her head upside down submerged and she couldn't get out. Luckily we were there the impatient little walking/flying disaster and my wife pulled her out by her tail feathers. We worriedly watched her for the next hour until we were pretty sure all was fine. Just to test later I tipped a glass so she could drink the water and she wanted no part of it. Sadly though Im sure her hard learned reluctance is only temporary...


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## Troller

*Date VII*

Definitely took a step back. They were slightly more hostile though a few more nose to nose sniffs took place. She boxed, he nipped, and both were being wary. Oh well can't all be great dates I guess. First time my wife saw the negative of bond attempts and I feel bad she took it sadly. It's going to happen from time to time. Hopefully tonight's date is better. I decided to stick them in the others dirty cage for a few hours before I clean the cages up. Hopefully it will have a positive end result.


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## holtzchick

Recently, I've found that my bunnies were having trouble with multiple dates a day. If they have one date a day, their behavior stays under control but I found with multiple dates Hippogryff turns into a huge grump and just grunts! 

It's something to think about, but it's all normal behavior.


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## Troller

*Date VIII*

Did not go so great again. Nose to nose stare downs with it ending only because Conan nips at Xena's nose. The mood also felt off, not like yesterday where things felt easy. Xena is thumping more and at times seems agitated while Conan appears to be grumpy. I hope tomorrow goes better.

That's a good suggestion Michelle. Even HRN says to do one a day during work weeks and twoce during weekends but I thought that was because of lack of time. Doesn't hurt to try I guess.


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## holtzchick

Troller said:


> *Date VIII*
> 
> Did not go so great again. Nose to nose stare downs with it ending only because Conan nips at Xena's nose. The mood also felt off, not like yesterday where things felt easy. Xena is thumping more and at times seems agitated while Conan appears to be grumpy. I hope tomorrow goes better.
> 
> That's a good suggestion Michelle. Even HRN says to do one a day during work weeks and twoce during weekends but I thought that was because of lack of time. Doesn't hurt to try I guess.



It would make sense, although I think it could also be attributed to the fact that during the work week people seem to be more stressed out than on the weekends when they have ample time to spare (most of the time) and the buns pick up on that energy. 

Don't sweat it though, I've seriously had horrible dates where it's ended closer to full out fighting and now it's nowhere near that. Seriously, it's really hard to get down about it, especially seeing your two buns, and thinking how the heck is it going to ever get better. It will, just have faith  

On my rescues forum, theres actually a member who has been bonding his rabbits since November and he had to take a break because it was so bad, last night, they finally started grooming each other for the first time and he's going to try a joint pen next week :headflick:


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## agnesthelion

Step backs are normal so don't stress too bad. Easier said than done as I would be like your wife and so sad about it. Michelle is definitely the one to encourage sticking to it....she's been SO awesome with her two 

I do agree with one date a day. I think most of the literature recommends that and to move to two dates if all is positive.

I also think following your gut with your own rabbits and learning the tiny little signs really is a key factor too. As what works for one pair may not for another. And also, I know you are limited on location but sometimes an area change of where dates are taking place can help too.


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## Troller

*Date IX*

Today seemed more relaxed. There was a bit of a squabble, mostly when Xena felt cornered (though she cornered herself) but what I found fascinating is they set themselves nose to nose and held that stance for near 5 minutes, and then broke off with a brouhaha. Sure there was a nip and an angry hop over but they both seemed less agitated. Conan sprawled out at one point, not a new thing and of course I got to wonder if it was the negative kind of show off relaxed. Xena grunted and thumped but she's a grumbled anyway. I just hope Im not dealing with two dominates. Wife thought it went well too. 

This time I put hay in the center, but neither of them seemed to interested in that. Yeah, I also went back on what I was thinking and did and plan to do this evening a 2nd date. See work weeks are no big deal for me because my job is to just observe and stay awake so I'm hardly every stressed. Bored maybe, but not stressed. In fact Im kind of a hard guy to stress. Anyway, so I feel as if I can do two dates no problem, but I'll give it one more day before I start limiting that. Thursday I'll probably be to busy for two dates anyway so depending on how it goes to tonight I'll see if Wednsday I keep it to one. Please don't feel as if Im ignoring the sound advice, I'm just feeling it out is all.

And yes Lisa, I plan to change the venue this weekend, at least for one date. I'll either do it in my mom's kitchen or my friends house. Of course that involves a car ride so some stressing buns might occur. Or I might for everyone's ease's sake do it in a small patch in the bedroom. I'm only not crazy about that notion since the bedroom is carpeted. Thanks for keeping up guys, I really appreciate the input.


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## Troller

*Date X*

Best date yet. Since it was time for greens I decided to combine their greens in one very large plate and put it in the center of the kitchen. Conan nibbled and then left, Xena munched for a bit. Conan seemed more relaxed then ever (I hope it's not some malady, his poop looked a bit funny and I made a post about it but his gut sounded good) and decided to just meatloaf to the side. Either Xena got upset he was loafing at a nice spot or that he wouldn't pay her much mind because she twice went over to him and thumped by his face. At the end I guess she felt really relaxed too because she meatloafed less then a foot away. It looked legit, not a show off. I ended it when they had a nose to nose confrontation lasting a minute but peacefully both pulled away.

I have a suspicion why it went so well. During the day I put them in the others cage so it might have settled them. But what I really think might have done it was I had the dish washer running and I know it had Xena a little spooked. Conan has a poker face heh heh, for a rabbit, so I just couldn't tell if there was a reaction but again, he just seemed calmer throughout.


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## holtzchick

Hhaha, I'm telling you it's because you brought the greens out  

Many sites, as I'm sure you've read many times, say to offer distractions such as toys and food so as long as your bun doesn't have aggression issues. I've had SO much success with offering food and treats! 

Great to know they had a good date! Keeping my fingers crossed for tomorrow!!


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## agnesthelion

This date sounded awesome! Isn't it funny how little things like a dishwasher running or greens on one plate can change things up? That's how tedious I believe bunny bonding to be. One little variable can set things ahead or back....and it's different for every pair!

Kinda repeating here but I really think the squabbles/set backs have been VERY normal and I'm not seeing anything that would indicate these two won't bond eventually


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## Troller

*Date XI*

Today went well, there was a scuffle in the middle of it that looked bad. Not asserting dominance just an almost fight but it got broken up. Then they went about doing the nose to nose thing for near 5 minutes and I decided to end the stalemate and call it a day. I really do think for them food is a positive thing, they don't fight over it and believe me at one point they had a leaf between them and Conan let go. The other positive thing (I think) was Xena resting her head on top of Conan's. Now I know he was looking for grooming and she was probably dominating but they stayed like that for about 2 minutes. The negative was Conan kept trying to get to Xena's belly for a nip (or worse I suspect) and Xena gave him a good old double stomping on the noggin. It did seem pretty tense, the wife was worried it was serious, but then they went back to standard, explored the kitchen and went into the nose and head rest thing I mentioned earlier.

So, not so good, not so bad. I'm thinking Friday since I'll be busy that I'll give them a date rest. Maybe. Maybe I need the rest . Let me not make that sound so bad, I'm not stressed, I'm actually enjoying the process I just wish I had more experience on the whole thing.


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## agnesthelion

Wait til it's all over and then you'll feel like a pro. I constantly second guessed myself through bonding and felt like I was always doing something wrong but then when they were bonded I was like.....okay! I did it! I guess I do know what I'm doing! Hahahah


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## Troller

*Date XII

*Another good date. There was a brief scuffle, one I believe for the first time Xena instigated. He was laying down all relaxed and she came up on him again, turned around and thumped near his face twice. He eventually reacted by trying to nip. They disengaged so all went well. Now the good news, they both ate together and eventually Conan even lambchopped. He looked really relaxed. Xena laid down as well after awhile. The mood was chill and they looked very cute together. Best news, I got some pics out of it this time.


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## agnesthelion

Aww look at them eating together! They really do make such an attractive pair.

Kinda funny that she came up and thumped in his face.....hehe...though not funny for you watching it I'm sure. But it sounds as though they are simply feeling each other out and that it is their specific way of working through things. 

I can't wait til they are bonded for you!


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## Troller

*Date XIII*

Bunny Bonding The 13th...dum dum dum. Yeah, it didn't go so good. My wife believes its mornings that they don't agree with. Anyways it was going well and the wham, the nipping from Conan and the attempted head stomping from Xena. It passed, they wandered and ate a bit, then it was back to nose to nose ataredown. Though once, only for the briefest moment, I could swear each of them nuzzled the other is a friendly manner. Maybe I'm seeing things from watching intently in too many attempts. 

My wife leaves for vacation May 1st. It's a while away but I was thinking if things stay stale until then that on my weekend I would make a two day effort Euro bonding style, or the fast method and see what happens. It's not me being desperate, I'm prepared for this to last months, hopefully a few short years and even prepared if it need happens, just thought if it was still status quo it would be something to try. Anyways Im off to sleep.


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## Chrisdoc

You´re having good and bad days but there´s still no fighting so that is a good sign. They still seem to be sussing each other out so maybe will take a Little longer but if you have patience, I think they´ll get there in the end. I loved the photos of them munching their greens together, they are such a lovely couple.


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## Troller

*Date XIV*

Well that went almost well. I mean there were some really positive moments of the eating together, Xena over Conan's head eating while he's sprawled out. And then after all these wonderful moments that decided to scuffle. I think I might have let the tiff run a little long, but I was hoping they'd eat it out of their system and break off. No such luck. So I had to press them down side by side, feed them a great and pet them for a short bit to at least try to end it on a peaceful note. If anything maybe they're more upset at me at the end then each other. 

So not sure whether to call this a stalemate because of all the positives that did happen, or just short of bad. I took a video while things were really good so you can see why I got hopeful. Anyway just another day at bunny bonding camp. http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=plcp&v=eRa6W9aoNnQ

Here's also a sweet pic I think.


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## holtzchick

Awh it's okay it was just another day youre right, and honestly you can date them every single day and they could be the same for a month or longer and then one day they will just move forward you won't even know when and it's probably when you least expect it, I didn't get a chance to watch thevid but will in the morning. They look sdorable together!!!


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## agnesthelion

It's surprising to see such cute pics of them together and imagine them having a scuffle. They look like soul mates already!
I still think they are doing very normal things and just working through things. Overall it all sounds positive!


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## Troller

*Date XV

*I think this was the worst date yet. Both we're fine huddling around the food, ate well. Then of course the domination plays began. It surprised me that Xena just went over and stomped on Conan's head out of nowhere, no sign to indicate that was coming. Conan of course not to be outdone pulled some hair, a good chunk off of her. Neither rabbit was harmed but both we're aggressive. We broke them up three times and by the last one they seemed a bit more calmer and went their separate ways. Figured it was going to be as positive an ending as I was going to get so I put them away and gave them the feel good treat. Now that's two not so good dates. I'm going to try again tonight and if it goes the same I'm either going to take them out for a drive and a new place for bonding, or just give the whole thing a few days rest and reset.I'm not disuaded,I still see some very positive things so I know it will eventually work, but no current progress is being made. 

Yeah Lisa, believe it they scuffle. But for their size and for the destructive power I know they possess (all the chewed out boxes, broken books, and knocked over gates and statues will attest to that) I don't believe they're going at each other to do lasting harm. Conan just wants to establish dominance while Xena lets him know she's too independent for those kinds of shenanigans. Before I started this I would have sworn as the laid back kind of bun that Conan would have been submissive, but oh no he's living up this name. Xena is also living up to her namesake. Makes me almost reconsider naming them after these powerful fictional warriors.


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## Troller

*Date XVI

*Ahh, this date went very well. They ate their greens, took turns lamb-chopping and at one point lamb-chopped together. They had a few brief moments where things looked like they might get tense but I soothed it with my voice and decided to end the date there. So in a sense this was the best date yet after following the worst one. Might have something to do with me putting them in each others cages. I've made this observation that the course of the dates are determined by Conan. If Conan is relaxed, then things generally remain so. If Conan is agitated and trying to establish his dominance too aggressively then things go bad. Xena never appears too comfortable, not like him, and generally reacts to Conan. I wish I could do something with this info, I guess I could try to relax him as much as possible so things go well. Since there wasn't three consecutive bad dates, I guess I won't take a break from bunny bonding or do change up anything too much. Oh, I forgot to mention now greens are always standard on these dates now cause it does have a calming affect on them. I'm still leery of putting a litterbox in since the first time I did it it did not go well.


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## agnesthelion

I agree it does not sound like these two hate each other by any sort of the imagination. If you can soothe a scuffle with your voice then they aren't even reaching a bad level at all!

After reading so many other bonding experiences on here it is clear that half the time working out who is top bun is literally one of the most common struggles. And that's obviously what your two are doing. I also think that's why my two bonded so easily because Aggie never even one time tried to challenge Archie in the least bit! She's so chill thank goodness.

I say stay the course and you will get there soon  As far as litterbox are the dates long enough to where you'd need one? If not don't try it yet. I would wait til you move to non neutral territory. Also to help with that are you switching litterboxes regularly? I was switching mine everyday at this point.....sometimes not even cleaning them that well so they were sure to smell each other a lot.


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## Troller

*Date XVII

*Took them to a different neutral territory in the apartment, the bedroom. It went well throughout except the end where again they scuffled. No calming voice worked this time. I broke them apart and eventually settled them down to put them away. Shame, it looked so promising again with them eating and relaxing. It always comes a time when one of them demands grooming, usually Conan, and then things take the bad turn. What I find interesting is Conan is the one pushing it, nipping when it doesn't happen, but Xena really goes to throwdown by boxing or begining the jumping over and such. I would worry overall except as usual they calm down and are able to be around each other easy enough right after or at the next date. Oh well, another day at the office. 

Your right Lisa, no point for the litterbox yet. Dates are not long enough to warrant that. As for switching, I've been switching them in each others cages every day. Especially right before I clean it so they can get each others full stink. On days they come from each others cages they seem more calm. I would switch smaller items but I think the wholesale switch works better, maybe not for them the jury still out, but for me for sure.


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## agnesthelion

Michael have you tried applesauce on the foreheads yet? That may help with starting grooming......


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## Troller

I was thinking to do the applesauce, and really wanted to do it but I read somewhere that unless you know who the dominant one is you risk confusing them and risking worse behavior later. If this kind of thing continues though I don't see why not take the chance, plus I have strong suspicions that Xena will like the applesauce and Conan wont.


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## Troller

*Date XVIII

*This date went pretty smooth. Xena was a bit agitated and let Conan know it by grunting and thumping. Conan took it all pretty easy. They both ate up all the greens, relaxed for swaths of time and then things got a bit tense when nose to nose stare down happened but Xena broke it off. Looked like Conan was going to chase to continue what I felt was going to be a spat so I petted each one, put them in their carriers and gave them a treat. Now I probably shouldn't have, but the date went on to about 30 minutes plus without a real incident. I think it was progress of a sort, I can't say they've settled down but at least they can tolerate each other for longer periods. Of course I could be mistaken and the food is playing a part in the slow downs of scuffling. Of course the issue is when they begin the date with these confrontations.


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## Troller

*Date XIX

*That was a disaster. I don't know what happened, but from the get go Xena seemed out of sorts. Shortly into it she for no reason ran to Conan to nip his but, and things went downhill from there. It really did seem like Xena was the aggressor on this date while Conan was being sheepish, a very strange turn. This date spiraled out five minutes into it and certainly looked like if I delayed putting them away a full blown fight would have occurred. So I put them away and got bit for it. I wouldn't say it was a full blow bite but it definitely broke skin and drew blood. I think I might take a break the rest of the day and just try again tomorrow since I'm going to be busy tonight. Then again I'm a stubborn and and relentless sort. I'll have to figure out what's best for them. It's just strange how it can go so well one day, so bad the next.


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## agnesthelion

Well bleh. That's a bummer  BUT......they say that bonding is a series of ups and downs so, although it's easier said than done, it's not a reason to be discouraged. Im sure they have off days like we do. I think you did the right thing ending the date. It's great you picked up on their queues that things were off so the fact that you prevented a full blown fight is a very good thing.


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## Troller

*Date XX

*Today was a strange one. Unbeknownst to me, Conan and Xena had some kind of altercation between cages. I was at work and my wife was off and she told me Xena was trying to box Conan between the bars and Conan was trying to get a nip/bite. Nothing happened because they had the cage between them but when I came in this morning I didn't know anything had occurred so I went to have a bunny date. The date went very well, Xena was agitated at first and wanted reassurance so I pet her a lot while Conan was moseying around. They went nose to nose again but this time I didn't want to let that ride so I pet the both of them, mixing their scents and mine. Finally at one point Xena went to wander while Conan was lying down so I went to give him some exclusive petting time. Xena eventually noticed and came along, not sure if it was jealousy or curiosity but I didn't want anything to happen so I again petted them both. The whole thing was so relaxing and peaceful I lost track of time and realized the date had gone 25min, 10 more then I usually give. 

So I'm not sure what to make of it. Fight between bars last night, rather peaceful this morning. Either way I'm thankful this one went so smoothly and I hope the next one works out just as fine.


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## Troller

*Date XXI

*The date went typical. Everything was good and calm while distractions were around (food) but when it came time for them to be close once again there was a dispute where Xena boxed and Conan nipped. I can't tell who instigated first and at this point it doesn't matter. Obviously both want to be dominant and neither one wants to bend. Yet...I will persevere because it really seems they get along until who's top bunny comes into question. I mean Xena lamb-chopped out while Conan was munching, and vice versa.


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## agnesthelion

Hmmmm? ,maybe their "fight"between the cages got them to sort SOMEthing out between the two of them if only for a little bit so then their following date went well.....? Who knows.

Broken record here but I take it as more proof that there isn't hate between these two but, like you said, a dominance struggle between two headstrong buns. Keep it up! You'll get there!


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## Troller

*Date XXII*

A decent morning date. They looked friendly enough, ate together and explored a bit. I dabbed some peanut butter (a HRS mentioned it) on the bridge of their noses and it didn't seem to do much of anything. Well Conan really tried to rub it off on everything, his carrier, the wall, so Im pretty sure he wasn't for it. I'll try banana next, something they both liked. 

There was two brief tense moments. The first came when Conan was relaxed next to me and I was petting him. Xena came over, sniffed his ear then made the loudest snort and a stomp which angered Conan who lunged at her. Nothing happened cause he was under my hand and I think he was just trying to scare her off, but I have no idea what that was about. The second came when Xena was between my legs and Conan went over my leg and was a bit over her. It looked like he was sniffing her nose and might have been considering grooming when instead he nipped her. Looked like a bite, but Xena didn't react and nothing looked amiss on her. 

Again, things were calm and I put them away at a nice moment when both were relaxed. So three okay dates in a row, some progress I think. Oh, I guess I could also add that the time of the date has been incrementally increasing with little incident so another good sign.


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## agnesthelion

Xena definitely sounds like she's a bit opinionated with her snorting and thumping, haha. But it's good again nothing huge happened! Seems like things are still moving in the right direction!


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## qtipthebun

Xena has personality. Lives up to her name. I love it.


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## Ilovemyrabbit

Yes, Xena definitely has a personality of her own! But the bonding does seem to going well.


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## Troller

*Date XXIII*

Very easy going on this one. Even when the little head to heads came, they didn't react too bad. Xena thumped and snorted but it didn't shake up Conan this time, and Conan nipped her on the nose but she didn't really react except to turn her head. I smeared a little banana purée on the bridge of their nose and while neither decided to groom the other to get at it both of them were obviously searching for the origin of the yummy smell. It was cute watching them twist, trying to find what was just above their noses. It feels like their settling in a bit, finally getting past their initial reactions and starting to more readily relax around each other. 

Now to vent about my damned apartment. NY got hit with some unseasonable heat (82 degrees) following unseasonable cool (30s a few days ago). No big deal, except the heater in my apartment hasn't stopped. So in my apartment with all the windows fully open and a draft going it feels like 90 and probably more. I've had to real out the iced water bottles for the buns and soon the fan. When I went to talk to the landlord he told me yesterday he'll call the repairman but today he tells my wife that it happens every year (well it didn't last year) and sounded like he just wanted to ride it out (heats going through the whole building). Grrr, if there is one thing I absolutely hate is heat! But worse, while I'm suffering in my sleep during the day (I work nights) Fed Ex decides to ring my bell for a package for my upstairs neighbor. Sigh...I'm such a light sleeper and once I'm up I'm up so its become back to back barely 4 hour sleep sessions. Double sigh...and of course I work so I'll be zombie like again for work.


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## qtipthebun

Ugh, I remember that feeling. When I was living in Syracuse, we didn't have control of our own heat in our apartment. They'd turn it on around September, and it only had one setting, full blast, about 80 degrees. And they wouldn't turn it off until April. So, god forbid we had a day that was not snowy or cold....it was miserable! Even when it was -10 out, we'd still have to have a window open to let out some of the heat.
I feel ya...I hate heat (why do I live in Texas???)!


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## agnesthelion

Another good date! Progress is good! 

As far as the apartment thing yeah being hot is not fun. As I get older I'd rather be cold than hot....especially trying to sleep. It's the worst thing ever. Our biggest heat complaint now is getting used to living in a two story house. We had a ranch before and I swear no matter how cool we have the AC it just doesn't cool the upstairs. Bleh.


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## Troller

*Date XXIV*

The morning bunny date went ok, not as good as the previous ones but I won't complain. No progress made, and they scuffled a little bit, some fur pulling, some jumping over but nothing too hard to break up and then pet them together after. Arter bonding I went to sleep and my wife mentioned they were fighting between cages again, but here's the interesting thing. Conan nipped Xena on the nose but she let it happen and didn't react and then he looked like he might have licked her. Xena was tapping him on the head with her from paws but Conan stood there for it with his head bowed for grooming, she wouldn't do that but would lick the floor near him. So something not bad at least is going on between sessions.

Yeah more heat today, but I did get at least 5 hours sleep so I'm somewhat functional at least.


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## agnesthelion

I feel like a drug pusher with this bonding article  but what the heck I'll shove it down your throat too! Hahaha

http://www.rabbitnetwork.org/articles/bond.shtml

I'm almost positive I've shared this with you before and you seem like a researcher like myself so most likely you have this bookmarked......but JUST IN CASE......lol...

But actually your two, and micelles pair, I always keep thinking about the wear them down method. The jury is out for me on what I think but I can't help but wonder with pairs that don't hate each other but kinda sulk about being bonded.......wonder if it would work...?

So again, no offense with over sharing...haha...I'm just such a fan of bonds that work out I try to brain storm solutions all the time.


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## Troller

I have read the article and saved it along with several others, though I thank you for mentioning it especially with adding the wear them down method. Friday I have the day so I might just consider doing just that. Though I wonder if I might be rushing, after all this Friday makes it two weeks. It's just I know they are so close. Also if I did do that I guess feeding and litter boxes shouldn't be available to wear them down...Somethings to think about. Anyway I'm off to start the next date.


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## holtzchick

LOL... Lisa, I am seriously considering the wear them down method for my two as well!!! It seems they don't hate each other also, just kinda in the middle but not completely oblivious to each others presence. 

Xena sounds like my Hippogryff... He demands grooming yet when receives it prefers to lick the floor instead... perhaps Conan is just waiting for a groom back, this is exactly how my two are behaving and it's kind of frustrating but I'd prefer this behavior to full on fighting any day! I think with your buns though, it's just in the early stages which is why both are establishing their dominance! I'd say they're coming along well  

If you do happen to try the wear them down method please let me know how it goes! I've been contemplating doing this for a while, but I've been at the bonding for months so I'm a little afraid :/


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## Troller

*Date XXV*

Nothing new to report. Pretty much the same behavior as before. A minor scuffle broke out but Xena ran and I was accidently in the way for Conan to chase. It was relaxing though as we say around minutes at a time in peace. 30 minutes long and all went ok.

And I'll let you know if I do the wearing down on Friday. It either that or the car ride to my moms house where I'll bond them there. Personally I think everything is all right it just will take time is all.


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## Troller

*Date XXVI

*Much the same as the previous date. They seem to be settling in to a sort of stalemate situation. What I'm really heartened by is when they do have their confrontations they usually break it up themselves. Progress...


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## Troller

*Date XXVII*

Today they went at each other nearly right out of the gate...err, carriers I mean. It looked like both were spoiling for a confrontation so I let it ride for a little bit. They would engage, break away, chase and engage again until the last time where they looked to be going at it for about 10 seconds and would escalate into worse so I broke them up. For the first time ever Xena pulled fur, but all in all no one was hurt and they settled down into a tense coexistence afterwards. So I'd say this date was a step back, but not too bad of one because neither looked too dismayed. However, I truly believe I got unlucky and have 2 dominant bunnies. They'll both bond in the end I'm sure, just it will take time.

Now something I didn't have time to mention after Date 26 (wow, so many) is that after the date I left them in their carriers on top of my bed to give them new scenery and me a chance to clean their cages. Xena decided to pee in her carrier 10 minutes into it. Now I know she can hold it in better then that, and this is the second time she has done this and I believe it's either her telling me she's annoyed at being in a carrier or annoyed that she is getting her carrier back after Conan was in it previously (I switch their carriers as well). She proved to me she was annoyed cause as I let her come out of her carrier and into her cage she decided to foot flick several time and splatter me with pee. Yay, she loves me . Heh, funny, but despite all this I actually believe she's the rabbit that likes human interaction and has the best possibility of becoming a lap bunny.


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## holtzchick

Awh! Some dates just go badly, most of the time you should stop the circling because it does end in a step back but I think yo know what you're doing  you're still handling things well! 

My two are also both dominant, but it's those times that make me melt when I see them laying side by side that make me the happiest!! Your buns honestly sound identical to mine right down to Xena the lap bunny  

How often are you dating them now? Is it 2 or 3 times a day?


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## agnesthelion

Yep you and michelles pair remind me so much of each other. All four are headstrong buns. That's why I continue to credit Agnes with my two bonding without a scuffle. I don't think there's a dominant bone in her body! :spintongue

I think they will bond too, just as michelles....just takes time!


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## Troller

I've been dating them twice a day for now officially two weeks. Sadly though today I hurt my knee, felt something pop behind my kneecap doing of all things crossing the street. I mean here I am a guy who used to play sports and get hit all the time and come out all right, I can't cross the street correctly. Sigh...Well it was raining pretty hard and I think my foot slipped a bit, but still its a shame and a poor excuse. So due to that I had to suspend the date for today, and today I was going to try the wearing them down method. Oh well. We'll see how capable I am tomorrow.


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## holtzchick

Awh that sucks :-/ get the wife to give you a nice massage  that always helps! 

I was just going to check how the wear them down method worked. Hopefully your knee heals quickly


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## Chrisdoc

It does sound like they can´t sort themselves out but no out and out fighting so that´s still good. When mine are looking at each other in that way and now I can tell when that is, I use my commanding tone and they actually take notice lol and walk away...sometimes amazes me but they do. I laughed at her peeing in the carrier...just showing him it´s hers and spraying you, well she´s a little madam and I did laugh at her.


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## sweet_buns

Your bunnies are too cute. One day i will have giant bunnies lounging around the house, putting my 2 cats and dog in their places. hehehe


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## Troller

*Date XXVIII

*My wife was helping me out for today's date. It went well, some confrontations but nothing excessive. Seriously, these dates seem to be going a standard way, which isn't bad its just...dull maybe? Again though I shouldn't complain, I do believe I'm seeing incremental improvements in their relationship its just very sloooowww.

And thank you Sweet_Buns for the compliment. They think they are cute too the little stinkers and they use it to get away with eating my air conditioner cord...


----------



## holtzchick

Lol Awh I feel for you! I feel like my dates haven't changed either but when I've read other bonding logs you see that it stays the same for x amount of time and then out of the blue on day z everything changes for the better. I think you're doing very well! 

It could also be that they maybe have too much space in the kitchen. I just posted on my blog that I switched their date location and it was like 100% improvement  I was going through so many bonding threads today lol.

Also if I may make a recommendation, if you have spare time, go onto BunSpace and there's a special forum section called Bonding there's a lot of useless threads on there but I'm sure if you surf through like I did this morning, there's a ton of stuff you can even pick up. Never hurts to read and then re-read right


----------



## Troller

*Date XXIX*

Fur Raising! This went bad five minutes into the date. They started jumping and kicking and biting. Water or my voice wasn't breaking then apart so I physically did it and put them in their carriers. Still though I wanted to end it on a pleasant note so I used the carrier time as a punishment for a few minutes and then let them back out again. This time they were both better, or at least they were fighting by trying to out relax eah other, though I think it was legit because either one would either loaf or explore. For several minutes I was petting them and eventually both layed down near each other. I let this blissful moment pass for a time while I was using Conan as a fuzzy pillow and slowly put them back in their carrier. Actually I just opened Conan's and he went back in himself. The aftermath was that there was a lot of fur around, I mean a lot! Mostly Conan's, who's usually the one doing it to Xena so it was a bit of a surprise she went that way. So not a successful date but no injuries and was able to end it peacefully.

Thanks for the usual tips Holtzchick, I've read extensively before on Bunspace, Binky Bunny and Rabbis United (reading how our Euro brethren handle things) and it all helps but I've noticed that there are many formulas that work, just each rabbit is different and each owner is too so it's still a trial for us new bunny bonders. I do intend to shake something up soon, either a new space, a car ride or wearing them down. But I'm not dismayed, I knew I ouldnt do shelter dates so I've always known that it would probably be harder and take a bit longer.


----------



## agnesthelion

Well geez sorry to hear about this last scuffle. I think it's promising that they seemed calm after they were put in their carriers. You definitely have it right there as far as ending things positive rather than just stopping at the fight. I definitely give you props because rabbit fights scare me. Just your explanation seems intimidating! Before I adopted Archie I had watched so many bonding videos online that freaked me our so much I almost chickened out on adopting arch! So anyway, kudos to handling this well 

I still stick to my original opinion that these two do NOT have hate for each other at all. They are just stubborn and take time to work things through. You and michelle both have that with your pairs!


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## Troller

*Date XXX*

Today was a straight brawl. It seems Xena is getting more and more aggressive and I have no idea why. I think they are really trying to establish who's in charge and not wasting time with feeling each other out. Both voice commands and water had little affect, and this time after a varied cool down time I could not get them to calm down. I did try this in a new area, one they share in common runs and so not neutral so maybe that could have been the problem. I'll have to take a break I think and do it in another completely neutral location after a car ride because they are both just too tense. I think though I'll heed my own advice and try one more time tomorrow.


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## Troller

*Date XXXI

*Decided to run one anyway. Kept it short, the animals explored and behaved. I was extra vigilant and let little slip so who knows if they were good because I was on top of things or because they got it out of their system. There was a moment they were yet again nose to nose without me petting or pushing them gently away, Xena snorted and they broke off. So that was a positive. So I'll run one more tomorrow and if it goes smoothly then I'll keep going as standard until next weekend when I can give a car ride and a new neutral territory to see what's what. If not then I truly will take a break and maybe in a week or two try it all over again. 

In personal news I took off from work today. I figured let my recovering knee heal a little more, plus NYC metro messed up my transportation again so it would have been tougher and a bit more pricier to get in tonight so I figured just take the night off. Its also why I did another date...I had the time so why not.


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## sweet_buns

Troller said:


> *Date XXVIII
> 
> *My wife was helping me out for today's date. It went well, some confrontations but nothing excessive. Seriously, these dates seem to be going a standard way, which isn't bad its just...dull maybe? Again though I shouldn't complain, I do believe I'm seeing incremental improvements in their relationship its just very sloooowww.
> 
> And thank you Sweet_Buns for the compliment. They think they are cute too the little stinkers and they use it to get away with eating my air conditioner cord...



Haha i feel your pain. I went through 6 pairs of gaming head sets before i finally decided that unless i wanted to end up spending over a thousand dollars on head sets before the end of the year, i should switch to cordless. >.<


----------



## Troller

*Date XXXII*

Under heavy supervision the date went okay. You could tell both buns were spoiling for a confrontation, especially Conan, but we never allowed it. I just don't get it, they show all the signs of being okay around each other. They eat near each other, groom themselves, loaf around, explore comfortably and even most times their body language seems good, but still they are constantly head to head. I've changed neutral ground, switched cages, rearranged the date grounds etc.. I'm not complaining, just mystified is all. This Friday I plan to do a car ride and a completely new place to shake things up since anything new is near exhausted at my apartment.


----------



## Troller

*Date XXXIII*

Roman numerals seemed like such a fun idea when I started this...Anyways, the date went well. Only two real flash points, one where Xena front paw stomped on Conan's head, and the other when Conan nipped Xena on the side. Otherwise they rested, ate, and explored. I think Im back to standard again. Can't wait until the weekend when I can throw a curve ball to the process to shake things up, hopefully for the better.


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## Chrisdoc

I do feel for you, it´s a long process but there´s more positive than negative so it´s moving in the right direction. I love reading the updates


----------



## Troller

*Date XXXIV*

More of the same today. Every other day it seems one rabbit is more aggressive the the other. Yesterday it was Conan, today Xena. There was a brief scuffle which my wife ably broke up. Guess I'm just logging in date time until I shake things up or a hreakthrough occurs.


----------



## Troller

You know I've been so focused on talking bonding I forget to mention the great things about having these rabbits in my life. For instance doing these dates as helped me bond with my rabbits even better since we're spending confined time together. Conan enjoys relaxing around me, to the point where sometime I lay my head on him as a pillow (I never put my full weight since my head is so big  ). Xena is definitely turning slowly into a lap bunny, likes climbing over us and hopping in and off will-nilly, occasionally even resting. The oddest thing though, she's developed this thing where she likes nipping the tips of my wife's toes. No idea why.

And handling, boy have I become an expert at it. I can pretty much lift these guys at will, well that is when I catch them. I can even get them to sit still so I can take care if some grooming needs. Oh sure they don't like it, but they tolerate it and Im sure they feel my confidence with it so don't fight me as much. Even if bonding them fails, which I doubt, I have learned a lot about them and taking care of them in the process so I have no regrets.


----------



## Troller

*Date XXXV*

This mornings date was nice. They spent nearly the whole time head to head in who'll groom first but at least no fight broke out. Could be because I was right there and soothing them, but I did let them decide a few times and each on chose to break off at one point and start again a few moments later. So I think we've recovered from the deficit we set back during those bad dates but we'll see with time. It was nice, we had music going and even the birds were at the date munching on greens and exploring rabbits. I think I'll start rating these dates for my reference. 

*****


----------



## Troller

*Date XXXVI*

Tonight's date went very smooth and relaxing. A brief confrontation at the beginning but both of them broke off with nothing happening. The rest of the time was spent literally relaxing and they ate their vegetables. My wife started playing music, Dark Wave and Trance, and I think it might be having a positive effect. Also she said at one point she hear Conan tooth purring. I could have sworn I heard it too, so maybe it is going better.

Now I'm not positive, but I think Xena may be the dominant bun and Conan just isn't agreeing just yet. Xena has the most aggressive reactions. If she's eating from the plate he shies away from it until she's done. Now those are my only two signs and a feeling, Conan is still the one to nip and pull fur most often (though not the biggest chunks) and he's the one who is the first to relax and the last one to break off from a staredown so I could be fooling myself. Even if I knew who'd be top bun it doesn't help me figure out how to get there faster.

******


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## Chrisdoc

Ups and downs but you´re keeping at it which is great. That is so good that it´s help you improve your bond with them, mine aren´t lap bunnies so it´s so nice that they will sit with you and do that. 

it does sound mostly positive and maybe Xena wants to be top bun and maybe Conan will realise it´s easier to let her be even if she isn´t....does that make sense ???


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## Troller

*Date XXXVII*

This morning went swimmingly. Both did the head to head again but voice commands registered or they just broke it off on their own. Lately Conan has seemed really timid, almost cowed, but I don't quite buy it since I found Xena's fur tufts at the borders of the cages, so they seem to be taking at least some of their grudges through the night. The actual dates though was a calm and family affair. Me, the wife, the buns, the birds, all we we're missing was our fish Haiku. So no breakthroughs but it is a marathon and we've hit a restful stretch. If there was a negative, it was that when I put them in their carriers for a short time so I can clean their cages Xena decided to show her displeasure and pee in it again. Oh well. 

Thanks for the positive thoughts guys, its nice having an ear to share this with and offer advice.

*****


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## Troller

*Date XXXVIII*

Well, this date was real good. Now I'm reconsidering driving them to my moms house tomorrow...See the date was going fine, the bunnies doing their thing. Xena was hopping around, eating greens from the plate and laying about occasionally. Conan did a little try at an escape attempt, got bored and went to a corner and lay down himself. Where it got interesting is right about when I was going to put the buns away.

Conan is laying with his head towards the wall, and for no reason Xena decided to come up from behind him, smell his tail then gently nip his heel. He didn't react badly, simply got up, turned around and laid back down. Then Xena herself laid down near him, at first not close but then she moved up. They did the groom me confrontation but what's unique this time neither of them had a sphinx stance, they were both pretty meatloafed out. Conan was stretching out his neck to the side a bit since they were perpendicular but he wasn't as tense as he usually is. Neither was she. She was so comfortable she was licking her paws right in front of his face while flat on her stomach. Come to think of it, he's done that type of thing too. It all ended when she decided to get up and really groom herself, and since this date had gone over by 15 minutes because I decided to see where this was going I finally gave them their treat and put then away for the night. 

Now I've got a dilemma. Tomorrows my free time opportunity to go take the buns on a drive to new neutral territory. Do I stress them and do this hoping for a benifit, or do I leave well enough alone? I'm just struggling with the idea since its usually after a good string of dates the rabbits decide to have a fight, and if they fight I'll have to wait until next week for the opportunity to go to my moms house. 

******


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## Troller

*Date XXXIX*

Not so smooth today. Conan seemed rougher in attitude, and Xena was nipping him while he was relaxing. I wouldn't say it was a bad date, just not as chill as the last few. I elected not to go take the drive, I'm kind of regretting it now but I guess I'll do it Sunday then. 

Conan did worry us though when he pooped out a mess of, no cecals but mushy formed pills. He's eating well, drinking well and his litter box looks good so Im not surfy if I should worry, but I should definitely be wary. We even checked his guy with my wife's stethoscope and she didn't get anything conclusive either way. 

*****


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## Troller

Also I forgot to mention at what happened during bonding. I was sitting very low and Xena decides to climb up me to my shoulder and sat there for about 20 seconds. My wife wanted to take a picture but had no time (we got to get into the habit of keeping our phones on us) but I felt like the strangest pirate of all time.


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## Apebull

Instead of "Polly want a cracker" it's "Xena want a carrot"


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## Troller

*Date XL

*Tonight's date was rather uneventful other then I let it ride for an hour. There was a moment where Xena reared up to box Conan, and a different one where Conan nipped her, but a spray of water separated them and set things back to standard. I wonder, I read so much about bonding but never saw anything about a neutral ground getting 'old'. It seems like Conan and Xena have set up sections for themselves and rarely cross the imaginary line. Hell, Conan won't really go to where the vegetables are anymore. 

To test this theory I'm going to try the bedroom in the morning, but at the same time isn't it the point that they get along in a space for as long as possible? Today nothing happened until about 40 minutes in, so that's a success even if they still haven't settled how their relationship is supposed to go. I think. Sigh...I hate all the guess work.

******


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## Troller

*Date XLI*

Today's date didn't go well. There was a lot of fur pulling and some boxing (from Xena). Conan was really wet from the spray battle. I let it ride a little bit, but at a point Xena was down on her side spinning and Conan over her. I pulled him off before he could do anything so I don't know what he would have done. The slippery floor of course makes it hard for them to go at it thank goodness. I pulled them off each other, my wife petted Xena while I petted Conan to calm them down. They looked like they wanted to go back to each other so I let them but I forced them to accept nose rubs right next to each other, gave them a treat, and put them in their carriers. So not well, but I get the sense they don't dislike each other they just got a few things to iron out. We'll see at the next date.

****


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## Troller

*Date XLII*

Tonight's date weeny back much like standard. They loafed around but a few times Conan got aggressive and tried a few nips. Xena was being the submissive bun this time around and would just hop away. So no progress, no set back. Left it 30min this time. 

*****


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## Troller

*Date XLIII

*The morning date went much like the evening date, so nothing special to report on that end. Last night however for the first time I personally witnessed a phenomenon that my wife has mentioned, them boxing between cages. At first I thought it was because Xena was in Conan's cage but my wife said that its happened regardless which cage she's in. It looked aggressive but they really couldn't do anything to each other so I just observed for a time then put Conan away (it was his out time) in Xena's cage. They do have some level of aggression towards each other, that's been evident even in their dates, but they also display levels of comfort. At the end of this week, or rather when Friday arrives it will have been a full month since I started bonding. I definitely think a shake up is in order so I'm going to take them elsewhere for a date and not not change my mind just because they were so good the date before. Also I think I'm going to get in touch with the local House Rabbit Society to see if they can offer any advice or help. 

*****


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## Troller

*XLIV*

Nothing special today, more of the same. I'm really thinking they divided the kitchen in seperate territories, Xena got north and Conan got south, because at times when one goes over the 'boundary' it sets the other to be aggressive. If I do do an evening bonding session I'm planning to do it in the tub or bedroom since they have no experience in the former and little in the latter. Probably the tub, though small its slippery and I think the more comfortable a surface the more they can dig in and fight if that's what they want to do. Either way on Friday I'm driving to my moms and shaking things really up.

Yeah Lisa, they sure are stubborn, but then so am I. If I truly believed it wouldn't work then I'd love them as two separate rabbits but I just don't see that. As for Roman numeral, it and Latin are an informal education of mine. I love Ancient history and its up my alley as a hobby. Plus I watch Superbowls and its convenient to know.

*****


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## Troller

*Date XLV

*So for tonight's date I put them in the bathtub. It's hilarious seeing two Flemish in a small tub. They both obviously did not like it, and they huddled together which is what I wanted. Problem is Conan kept sticking his head under her, nipped her a few times and and at one point pulled fur. So, I'm sure they were scared, a bit stressed, but I have no idea what total affect it had on them. They did look cute though huddled together at certain points, both staying perfectly still so they won't slip. I kept them together for about 15 minutes (pretty sure it was less then that). We'll see how it works out tomorrow during the normal morning date. 

****


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## Troller

*Date XLVI*

The morning date was in the bedroom, only the third time they've dated here. Xena was agitated the whole time, thumping a few times, which she never did before. Conan was in exploration mode and seemed more outgoing. All was well though Xena didn't seem that into the greens (another unusual though she did nibble). Just as I was going to end on a good note a scuffle breaks out. Fur pulling, boxing and jumping over. I stopped it, not so fast cause I guess I was hoping it would settle but after about ten seconds enough was enough. Fine back in the carrier and to the cages, though I let out Xena for some run time and this is what they do right after. She runs to lay down next to him and he's just chill...:tantrum:

****


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## Troller

Well since I double posted anyways, I might as well use this space to mention while we weren't looking Xena jumped up on the couch where there was a pizza crust left over on a dish. She started nibbling it of course. Luckily my wife saw it and stopped her from consuiming too much but she ceratinly is adventerous in her eating habits unlike are other ultra-finicky rabbit.


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## Troller

*Date XLVII*

Bathtub date tonight. They looked freaked out but behaved decently. Conan was nippy but Xena was too worried to react. I kept it at ten minutes then let them out. First thing Xena did was lay next to Conan's cage. Silly rabbits...

*****


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## Troller

*Date XLVIII*

Morning date, back in the kitchen. It went well enough, a few nose to nose that didn't go anywhere but both rabbits were moody. I had to end it a little early because. Xena jumped on a carrier and when she went to hop off got her toe or nail stuck on an opening. I was always worried that it might happen but thought I was just being paranoid. I looked her foot over and while she's not limping, and nothing looks broken or bleeding, she's against that particular foot being checked so there might be a little pain. I'll monitor it. 

*****


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## Troller

*Date XLIX*

Not too bad tonight. They had a brief confrontation where they both reared up but then broke it off themselves with no 'persuasion' from me. Xena played a bit with the red ball, Conan loafed and all went well. It lasted 20min and They went nose to nose at the end but I had to break it off before it settled positively or negatively since I needed to get ready for work. 

A question to other bonders out there, when your rabbits begin to scuffle seriously, do you deter a distinct rabbit funk in the air? Kind of like the same smell you get when you clean their scent glands. It's definitely coming off of Conan, and I only smell it when they get into a serious fight, well almost serious because it gets stopped. 

*****


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## Chrisdoc

Yes, it´s like they´re throwing their scent out there. Houdini does it when he scuffles with Snowy and it´s kind of skunky.....I honestly think they can throw their scent like skunks and it does stink so know exactly what you mean. Even if I clean his scent glands, he still does it.


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## Troller

*Date L*

Only one date today, done in the afternoon. I figured let me give the 'date them when their not at their most active' a try. All was well, they behaved even when they they vied for dominance. I screwed up though, tried to do another trick I read about where you force them next each other and pet them. That did not work out well, ended in a scuffle where fur pulling and knock downs occurred. No distinct smell from Conan however and they seperate and took pets easy enough. Trial and error I guess, and I won't be trying that again.

This weekend will be fun for me. Tomorrow I go talk to a broker to see what kind of loan we can pull for a first time house. Saturday me and the wife take a drive to the big Eastern Flemish show just to see the pretty rabbits and spend the night somewhere scenic. Sunday I take my wife to see Cirque De Soleil and dinner to kick off her vacation that culminates in her and her moher going to Puerto Rico for the first time on Wednesday. So who says all us men are no good . Then I have time to really get into the rabbit bonding. I wonder what new thing I can try with them.

Oh and I forgot to mention, that was Date 50! Not sure that's a good thing but its a thing! Here hoping to not having another 50!

****


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## Troller

Sigh...Cross that rabbit show. Originally Cirque was scheduled for Friday situation we can go to the rabbit show Saturday, get a hotel room there and visit a national park, and come back Sunday. But Cirque decided to cancel my already paid for show a week before hand so I had to settle for Sunday. That screws up going to the rabbit show because its a 4 hour drive to that, staying overnight isn't worthwhile since we won't have the time to enjoy it since we have to leave the next day very early to make it back in time for Cirque which screws up our visit to a park. I just feel bad for the wife because she hates rushing for things, and hates it even more when something requires planning to the point it becomes a chore. Oh well, the revised plan now is Saturday national park visit, then Sunday Cirque...I'll make out own rabbits Conan and Xena show for us at home. Now it only the little stinkers will comply.


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## Troller

*Date LI

*Decided to do a bath tub date for no particular reason. Both bunnies behaved very well which is a sure sign they both hated the experience! My wife at one point decided to join them in the bath tub which kind of defeats the purpose of stressing them but it was all so very cute so who could resist. Ended it ten minuted with nary an issue except for little wet bunny bottoms (didn't realize there was still a little water left but no harm was done, just more annoyance which kind of worked with the game plan because those big bunnies had no other choice then to be right next to each other and hold perfectly still. 

****

*Oh, and heres a pic of a pro-bunny flopper. Again, for no reason...


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## Troller

*Date LII

*The In-Laws were here for dinner and the father loves pets, and the mother while makes a stink about pets she likes them too, so they asked to see a bunny bond date. So Conan & Xena gave a show of being well behaved and we're extremely cute. No moment of bonding, but no fighting or confrontations either so all was well. Yeah 51 dates...I wonder when people start opening up the territories to these guys. Is it when there is absolutely no fighting and some contact or is it when they look calm enough they try it? 

****

*Thanks Lisa for the kind thoughts. We're looking for Long Island, which is right outside NYC (but not by much). Your right, the value of houses in the city proper are just ridiculous and you get so little out of it it just makes no sense to be a moderate means family and do it. I saw Mystere in Vegas, great show, and now I'm going to see Totem. It's all fun but again I wish I could have given her the weekend she wanted, but it will still be a great weekend going to the botanical garden and seeing the Cherry Blossom show tomorrow. 
As for the gender jokes, yeah I'm just playing along since so many blog writers here are ladies, and I'm reading either recipes, Downtown Abbey, or laments about the inadequacies of the males, and I'm just not sure I should respond just for responding sake. People compliment me on my cooking, but I can't say I have any official recipes nor know exactly how to convey a lesson. I'm sure I'll be watching D-Abbey at some point and maybe not dreading it (I hope) and as a male I've got plenty of inadequacies but I'm such a stud that women overlook them :muscleman: But by your standards I guess I'm not much of a guy cause when i belly up to the bar I often ask for a glass of milk (The other bouncers used to laugh at me but what can I say, my cookies needed milk...


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## Troller

*Date LIII

*All's well on the morning date. They did lunge and make contact with each other but they broke it off themselves without intervention from me being necessary. So another relaxing date but no end to the stalemate on who's boss. Maybe there will never be. 

****

*Lately on the morning dates we've been letting the cockatiels join in to hang out, so it's kind of like a family bonding time (maybe the bunnies will catch the hint). Anyway for no reason I decide to spray Oberon (She's the almost all yellow one) with the mist and she likes it! My wife has been trying to give Oberon a bath for the longest but today out of nowhere Oberon accepted it. Of course Titania had to get involved in the act (We actually have to keep her from showering with my wife, she can't get enough), my wife loved every moment and I got a very very wet leg . You can see Conan in the background wondering what the hell is going on. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3EX4F7FLA8&feature=youtu.be


----------



## JBun

You're right! Conan's just sitting back there in the corner looking like 'Really?'.


----------



## Troller

*Date LIV

*Ooh boy that was a humdinger...I shouldn't have pushed it I guess, the date was going 45 minutes and I was going to let it continue until the one hour mark, but then they fought. And fought bad...Guess I should be grateful that neither got hurt, just a lot of fur pulling and stink is all. Tomorrow I'm taking them for a car ride to a completely neutral area and see what happens. If it's ugly then I may give it a weeks rest. Shame, because it was all going so smoothly, and I mean I do have to increase the time incrementally at some point. We were having such a relaxing time up until the end. 

**
*
And of course I should go check on them to see if they're all right and discover them lambchopping against their cages right next to each other all relaxed! :craziness :banghead


----------



## PaGal

I enjoyed the video of the birds, they really looked like they were enjoying it. 

Silly buns! It seems it would be so much easier if their body language was a little more clear.


----------



## JBun

I don't know if this is even a possibility for you to try, but I have rabbits that don't get along inside on neutral territory, but are fine and happy with each other when I let them outside to play. I don't know if its that there are more distractions and room to run around. If you know of an enclosed yard you can take your rabbits to, or use leashes or an xpen, it might be worth a try if nothing else is working.


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## qtipthebun

Oh the bird video. I can't handle that much cute at this hour. That makes me want to go spray the parrot....I know he likes water but I wonder if he'd be anywhere near that cute. He takes baths in his water bowl, but it's nowhere near as hilarious as that!


----------



## Troller

*Date LV

*I took them on a car right to my mothers. The date went very well, both we're just exploring and did briefly meet but shooed each other away. Xena did rear up and box, her usual move, but it didn't go past that and they broke off. Now for the very bad news. My initial check last night didn't register that Conan got a scratch on his eyebrow. That area is a little swollen, and there was some crust. My wife (a nurse) cleaned it up and put some bacitracin on, but not on the eye because that's bad, and we'll be monitoring it all day. If things don't get better we'll take him to the vet tomorrow. He doesn't look perturbed by it at all, he was patient while we cleaned it and was friendly with my mom and everyone all day so I'm hoping it was just a scratch to the eyebrow and not the eye itself. 

Such a shame, because they were loafing around in the new grounds and my mom simply loved having the company. They looked so good, relaxing and just classically being themselves in a new territory and leaving each other alone. If it was a first date I would have said they make a good match. At 55 dates, it's not progress but it's not anger or even hate. Then again I realize now that they haven't really gone nose to nose anymore, they either break off when making contact with each other or fight of late. In my heart and by logical deduction I think this bond will work and isn't a dead end but I definitely need to give it time and reassess. Maybe call for some help from a more experienced party.

Now for responses;



agnesthelion said:


> Hahaha a stud huh? Hmmm okay, we will take your word for it. :biggrin2: You had me convinced until the milk at the bar thing......lol.........



Heh, a real man is stud enough to be childish, not care what others think, and maintain manliness...Err, I believe 



agnesthelion said:


> Things were going good! It's hard to know when to end dates though. Especially if things were going so peaceful. Did something specific happen OR start happening at the 45 minute mark that changed the mood?



Really I'm not sure. Conan was laying around relaxing, she came to him, he instantly got up to meet her head on and then she started boxing. That's the thing with them, there is very little transition in them from relaxing to fighting and their body language is curious and relaxed until it isn't anymore. Granted my study of bunny body language come's from research and video study, but still I don't think I'm that far off. Like I said I think I either need to be more patient or ask for outside advice. 



JBun said:


> I don't know if this is even a possibility for you to try, but I have rabbits that don't get along inside on neutral territory, but are fine and happy with each other when I let them outside to play. I don't know if its that there are more distractions and room to run around. If you know of an enclosed yard you can take your rabbits to, or use leashes or an xpen, it might be worth a try if nothing else is working.



My brother has a yard, but not quite enclosed. We're starting to plan to move to a house and on our list is a good yard, so maybe then. I'll have to consider my options cause I'm not so sure on the kitchen anymore but then I'm reassessing everything right now. Worst situation we end up with two separate bunnies, a thing that's not ideal but not one we can't handle. 



qtipthebun said:


> Oh the bird video. I can't handle that much cute at this hour. That makes me want to go spray the parrot....I know he likes water but I wonder if he'd be anywhere near that cute. He takes baths in his water bowl, but it's nowhere near as hilarious as that!



Never hurts to try. You saw my clowns, they love it, especially Titania. Then again my birds are more winged puppies then birds. Or rather We've never had birds that behave like them.


----------



## Troller

Well I made an appointment for the Vet on Wednesday. Conan's eyebrow definitely has a cut where its split and I hope his eye didn't get hurt. The wife has been putting bacitracin every 12 hours on it and while it looks better we don't want to take any chances. Poor little guy.


----------



## Troller

I had to reschedule the Vet appointment because work stuck me for a double, so after my 16 hour shift I had the pleasure of hitting rush hour traffic making my usual hour commute time into two. Got home and felt so bad about the animals being caged up so long (my wife is on vacation) I let the birds out and went to sleep. Apparently its hard to juggle out time with sleep because the birdies promptly woke me up 3 hours later because they missed me...Sigh. The buns also got their out time and then I went off to work to do it all again. Get back and today is cage cleaning day, so I do a quick job, get 4 hours sleep so I can make my Vet appointment. I come home, give the buns and the birds their out time (actually the birds were out since morning). Time to put the birds back in for the night and they actually rebel against me and it takes forever. I'm getting hissed at the whole time. Oh well, I must love these critters or something. After its said and done I have to dispute some bills, talk to family on the phone and then it's back to work. Thank goodness Im off tomorrow.

Ok, enough whining about my days it's time I get back to writing about my poor little bun Conan. Turns out Xena must have bit off a tiny piece of his eye brow/inner eye lid. Ouch. The Vet said it looks good and is healing fine (thank goodness my wife is a nurse so we were on it from the get go taking care of it). I got to give him 3 eye drops a day and syringe feed him 6cc of antibacterial medicine (no easy feat with this little picky eater) and hopefully he should be all right. It's healing on his own so the Vet didn't want to stitch it but she wants to take precautions so no abcess forms (not likely but still a chance). In 10 days I got to go back for another check up.


----------



## qtipthebun

Try putting the meds on a slice of banana if he likes banana. Syringe feeding Q-tip post spay was the worst thing ever. She HATED it and didn't like the taste of the meds, so we started just putting it on a banana. She was so excited to be getting banana slices that she ate them up, medicine and all.
I've also heard of people using applesauce, if you have applesauce addicted buns.


----------



## HolyHandGrenade

Or the good ol' smoothie method I used for Monty's meds. Good luck Conan! Xena's a fiesty one, but she's worth the battle wounds


----------



## Chrisdoc

What a shame that Conan came off this the worse but nothing serious thankfully. It is difficult sometimes to see when they will lunge and they are so fast. Mine have had their fair share of scuffles and when they go at it, they go at it. The two little ones used to sink their teeth into each other´s rump and they would be rolling on the floor so your two are quite tame. 

There are good signs with them, it´s just gonna be a very long engagement :dunno


----------



## Troller

I've been gone for a time but I can now come in and officially say Conan's eyebrow/lid is healed. It was tough getting medicine in him alone, and so glad wifey came back from vacation to make it easier, but the little guy did well and is all right. Well, except for a barely noticable scar. Now soon I'll start the bunny dates again but I want to gain my confidence back up before I embark on it. 

Meanwhile we've been house hunting, and while Im a little nervous about the prospect of buying a home for the first time, I look forward to a new space for my pets and even a backyard they can roam.


----------



## Troller

Just had a thought, I'm leaving on vacation in 2 weeks, so wondering if its a good idea to start bunny bonding again to only have a 2 week layoff and then continue when I come back. Any thoughts?


----------



## Troller

It turns out my birds and rabbits are in collusion. Apparently the birds knock the treat bags off the shelves to the floor so Xena can eat them all (luckily only 4 were left) and in return she lets them eat out of her hay trough. Evil I tell you.


----------



## JBun

Haha, I wonder if birds and rabbits secretly can communicate  At least all your animals are happy!

Well, with bonding, if you stopped dates til you're back from vacation, that would be about a month wouldn't it? That's pretty long. It would almost be like you were starting over. But who knows, maybe that's what they need. A little break too.


----------



## Troller

Well considering they've been on break for 2 weeks, it will be a total of 6 weeks before I start. I mean I'm okay with starting it now, but I'm not sure my wife can continue while I'm away. I did get in touch with my local Rabbit society and am waiting on input from them as well.


----------



## Troller

*Date 1*

I guess its time to start all over. Today I did a short date, 15min. All was quiet, Conan looked really relaxed and presented a few times, which seems like a good sign since he was the one who got injured. Xena seems a bit skittish, grumpy, but kept coming to stay near Conan. She did thump once at him, and I think he nipped some fur though she didnt since she's molting. All was well and ended peacefully.

Unrelated to bonding, I'm hanging out in the let room relaxing when I hear this low rattling. I turn to look, Conan is on the 2nd level of his condo with his nose pressed against the cage twitching it which is making the rattling. He's so cute wedged in there between his stuffy so I took a pic.


----------



## Chrisdoc

I´ve missed these two and he is such a softie. 

How I laughed at the collusion between the birds and the bunnies. They are all too smart, you´ll have to watch out. 

Doesn´t sound bad for a first date again, hope things only improve.


----------



## Troller

*Date II

*Not too bad, some mild aggression with Xena boxing and Conan seeming to be protecting a certain zone in the neutral area. Yesterday seemed more relaxed, today there was a tension of a sort but nothing too extreme. I realize I miss bonding them, because its the only real time we spend together otherwise I have to force my presence on them. Well, in reality I am forcing myself on them but for a reason. I just love watching them interact, just as much as I like watching them being solo around the house up to their shenanigans. 

The other pets, Oberon (cockatiel) began laying eggs again poor thing. She's too young and she did it a few months back, and now doing it again. Takes a lot out of her and we don't know why she's doing it. Poor Titania the trouble maker is having a difficult time sharing the cage. She's usually the dominant one but Oberon is in protection mode so she's constantly chasing her off which makes for a tumultuous time in their relationship.


----------



## Troller

:airborne::birthdayToday is Conan the Bunbarian's one year Birthday!:birthday:airborne:


----------



## HolyHandGrenade

Happy birthday, Conan! I forgot we're only a week apart 

:birthdayarty:


----------



## Chrisdoc

Happy Birthday Conan, hope you got lots of treats and that Xena kissed you through the bars lol.

:big kiss::toast::balloons::birthdayarty:


----------



## PaGal

Happy Birthday Conan!!!

Yout threw me off with the photo. I thought at first there must be another Conan bun.


----------



## Troller

Do you call fur pulling kissing? If so then it happened. Sigh...

*Date 3*

Happened, 15 uneventful minutes with a tone of aggression that persisted long after when they were back in their cages. Conan however did get extra treats and a new toy that Xena seemed to like so much better. Oh well. Oh and this morning Xena wen binky crazy all on our couch. Of course I missed it because they buns only do cute things for my wife while I'm not around.


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## Troller

,DATE 4

This date was smoother, rabbits ate, explored and relaxed just fine. Twice they confronted one another and they each took turns breaking off abruptly. Well three times actually, one of those I raised my voice and they seperated. I just wish I understood what the contention is between the two that keeps them from bonding but isn't severe enough to keep them from hating each other. Oh well. 

***


----------



## Troller

Date 5

The buns seemed super relaxed, I saw Xena lambchop in a way I've never seen before with her back legs out and sideways and her front paws stretched out. Meanwhile Conan was hardcore grooming himself and had zero aggression. At one point when they were preelsenting for grooming I could have sworn Xena actually did groom him. I think, but it was much to brief to tell if it was grooming or just a few quick sniffs on his nose. Either way all was good tonight. 

****


----------



## Troller

*Date 6*

Another fine date. Looked very promising as both ate over their greens and decided to make nose contact. They actually paused like that for a few moments before Xena reared up and Conan lunged, but it got broken up quickly and the rest of the time was spent relaxing. So no new successes, but no step backs either. Lasted about 25min. 

*****


----------



## Troller

*Date 7*

Went well. I have this gut feeling, based on little I know, but that they are getting along better. Tonight nothing really happened, and of course I only have these seven dates to go on since I restarted bonding, but it just seems if some confrontation does go down (two very brief flare ups) it's easier to break up, that they flop and groom just a little bit closer to each other, that their body language isn't as tense. Things have gone really smoothly for many dates with no back step so either one is coming or I really hope they've reached at least a timid comfort zone with each other. 

Today I brought out a litterbox and some hay out. They had an initial dust up, the usual of both rearing up but it was extremely brief when I cut them off with my voice. I know some methods say to let a little bit of a tussle commence so they can establish themselves but with one of my rabbits getting injured previously I can't and won't risk it. After that they ignored the litterbox although occasionally one would come over to take a munch on the hay. They devoured their greens, and I've been noticing a phenomenon where Conan waits for Xena to eat first. Sometimes he joins her right after, sometimes he just waits until she's had her fill the eats herself. For her part, Xena seems to have stopped thumping at him and snorting. They both present for grooming and each one takes a turn and snapping away abruptly so I can't really tell how that's going just I'm happy it hasn't let to fighting. The only other brief confrontation was when I was lying with then, Xena was on my chest and Conan to my side. She wanted to go down but he was in the way so they had a flare up which again I cut off with my voice. I mean I can't have giants fighting on me now can I! 

I lost track of time so this date went 30min. I think it's been helping a lot me only doing a date a day, unlike before where I was doing two a day 12 hours apart. Maybe so much date hoopla was stressing them. I hope that's the case. Either way I think I'll stick with that. Plus it doesn't help that I've been busier of late. 

**** *

Right now my birds are having a tougher time then my rabbits. Their usual relationship is topsy-turvey with the usually submissive Oberon asserting herself in the cage because of her being a tragic mommie (4 eggs counting with no chance of ever hatching). Titania who's usually the dominant is often chased around or out of the cage, meanwhile when their out Titania is back to being the boss. Nothing bad from all of this, just different for them. Titania and Oberon have been doing this new thing of late where they bathe in the water dish. Titania is particularly hilarious as she's got her wings raised, turns in circles and make this cute warble noise. I need to get that on camera.


----------



## Troller

*Date 8

*A smooth date. I decided to lay down with them and they hovered all around me. At one point they were nose to nose while I was stroking them at the same time and we stayed like that for 10 minutes until I decided to break it off and see what happens. Well of course they lunged at each other but there was a brief moment where it almost looked like they would get along. Oh well, one raised voice call later and they went off to explore separately. I didn't mean to let the date go so long again, it lasted 35 minutes, but we were all so relaxed I figured why break it off. Anyway they both went back into their cages all quite and generally happy it looked. 

*****


----------



## PaGal

Know one knows your buns better than you and you seem to be a vigilant daddy so I believe it probably is becoming more relaxed between the two of them as you feel it is. 

I think if it came down to a tussle on top of you, you would come out the loser in it. :apollo:


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## Troller

*Date 9

*This date wasn't as laid back, and while nothing wrong happened aggression was definitely present. They laid down with me as before, and they did lay close to each other and had nose contact, but eventually one would get fed up and lunge. It didn't progress any further because I wouldn't let it. I know I should give a little bit of, uhh leash I guess, but again don't want to risk a second incident of injury. Still, even in defeat the positive I can draw is they just seem to be allowing themselves to get closer to each other for longer so it's a positive. 

*****


----------



## Chrisdoc

It sounds mostly good and they seem quite relaxed with each other most of the time. You do know them so well now so you can sense things before they happen. I am so rooting for these two again, I hope they sort themselves out


----------



## Troller

*Date 10*

This date's mood was a continuation of the previous one. They were their usual selves but as soon as they got too close each would lunge. Well, kind of lunge since it looked like instead of going forward to do it they were back pedaling, not actually trying to make contact. Maybe that's a good thing? 

Anyways I did two things I probably shouldn't have. One I forced them to lay side by side right next to each other while I pet them. As long as I was petting them they were all right. At least when I let them up they peacefully went their separate ways. The second wrong thing I did since the day wasn't going well and I had to shorten it was I put them in the bathtub together to rattle them a bit. Oh they were rattled, either sitting perfectly still or huddled together. Regular date went 20min bathtub date went 10min.

****


----------



## Troller

*Date 11*

This was a better date then the previous one. They ate, they used the litterbox though at one point Conan did chase Xena off but both rabbits enjoyed the petting and attention they got from us. That is of course until we decided today would be check up day. We promptly clipped nails and examined teeth, All was good. Of course when I put them down Conan decided to vent his frustration out by nipping Xena and pulling fur. Thank goodness Xena didn't react. The date pasted 40min. 

So I've run about 60+ dates and nothing really has changed. Seems like if this is to happen its going to be a long time in coming. Oh well. The shame is Im leaving for Europe for two weeks and so can't bond them, though my wife said she'd give it a try.


----------



## Troller

*Date 12

*So I cheated and snuck one more date in before I left. Probably better off to not have done that, since it was an aggressive date. They attempted to brawl after long stretches of nose-to-nose confrontations but I squashed that hopefully quickly enough. It felt like the date was headed to this confrontation and I wish I had the days to continue so they can sort it all out. Oh well, maybe the wife will do that. Either way it wasn't too bad, just not positive either.
'
****


----------



## Troller

Hi folks, I'm back from my vacation/business trip. I went to Ireland and Bulgaria, countries I've been to before but still always a great experience and I do love to travel. Two weeks, two countries and a relaxing time. Sadly I think I gained weight, but then the food was too good and too hard to resist. I did miss my pets however and while I was away no bunny bonding occured, so I guess I'm back to square one again. This is like the third start over but I'm a patient fella. 

Came back to find Xena blowing out her coat, heh just as Conan finally finished blowing out his. Otherwise she's been her good at being bad self. Tearing things up, making a mess, chewing accidentally stray cords and all the usual wild hijinks she gets into to. Friendly and cute. Conan is his usual stoic self, though I'm starting to think he's a bit tubby but last I checked two weeks ago (and he doesn't look much different) he was 13lb 13oz, which is about average for a buck Flemish. Behavior wise we love that he's so relaxed and we can trust him completely and leave him out to wander everywhere unwatched during his time out. But man do I wish they were bonded already. They'd have so much more freedom, so much more fun. Oh well lets get back in the saddle. 

*Date I (Or 67 but who's Counting...Sigh)

*Twenty minutes, no litterbox but greens available. Definitely seems we are back at square one, as they spent the time wandering around, occasionally eating and eventually just avoiding each other when they would get close. Not sure if this is a good thing or bad thing but I guess that I just have to accept it really is like starting all over again. So a good start I figure. 

****

*Sadly I noticed that my bunnies find me strange. They're avoiding me a bit and will submit to being petted but I know for a fact Its me forcing myself on them and not because they're letting me. Damned strange scents I brought home, now I can't even pal around with my little family... :boohoo:


----------



## Troller

*Date II*

A twenty five minute date that went well, some signs of aggression but no all out brawls. Though I did use the spray bottle which I havent done in a while so who knows what it might have turned into. Tomorrow I think I'll tub stress date them.

*****


----------



## Troller

Noticed a fascinating phenomenon today. My wife comes in from work in the morning and both rabbits run up to greet her! They have never done that for me, not even Conan for feeding time. Then my wife casually mentions to me they do this all the time with her!!! I mean c'mon, I'm the primary slave for these little stinkers, I toil and that's the thanks I get!

Well at least I can live vicariously through my wife, they cant take that away from me so HAH!!! Yeah, that'll show them...sigh.


----------



## Apebull

I know the feeling. I pet Twigs and give him treats and he likes me but I can't get him to sit near me. He always sits on the ottoman for pets. But he'll come and jump on my husband and lay next to him. Really! So not fair.


----------



## Troller

*Date III

*This one is what we like to call a family bonding date. Me and the wife, the birds, and the rabbits all at the neutral territory for a rabbit date. We like these moments because its the only time we can have them all out at the same time. It's cute seeing two rabbits eat from the veggie dish but have you ever seen two rabbits and two birds do it? Very cute. Anyway the date went well, nothing ground breaking, a lot more confrontations and a bit of aggression but nothing outrageous and no setbacks. So, just all around fun.

*****


----------



## Troller

*Date IV*

Is it too optimisitic being overjoyed by a very little thing? Todays date was great, completely chill and the bunnies and I were relaxing. What got me really pleased was for the first time ever Conan and Xena ate their greens side-by-side. See the plate is pretty big and usually they just eat from opposite ends or one at a time, but today they did so right next to each other! And zero aggression! The whole thing lasted 30min and ended just as peacefully. 

Tomorrow I got a person from the Rescue who I believe is also affiliated or knows people from the HRS coming over to help woth the bonding. I mean sure things are going well but its been at a stalemate for so long and its going to be nice having someone more experienced overlooking to sound off if things are going the way I believe they are. I'll update tomorrow on how it goes.

******


----------



## Chrisdoc

I love reading about these two and hope we are getting towards the final steps to a stable relationship. Glad to see they´re eating side by side which sounds really positive. Any help or advice is welcome...hope that things are moving towards a June wedding.... or July lol.


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## Ilovemyrabbit

I hope they bond soon! 

I've been reading this blog since the beginning, but haven't really posted on it.


----------



## Troller

Thanks for all the well wishes. I have no doubt its going to happen, I just dont know how long. I only started in the end of March and had to take two breaks so progress hasn't been too bad. 

*Date V*

Very relaxed again, I let this one stretch out and it went for 45min. The only time a fight took place was when it was time to put them away instead of putting them back in thier carriers I left the door open for them to waltz in and instead the had a dust up of who gets to go in the carrier.

I truly believe these two can get along fine until a new area or toy is brought in, then the dispute of who gets it takes effect and they fight. So to me it seems they've learned to coexist but still not who's in charge or even if they can just remain equals. The weather was bad today so the Pro Bonder from the rescue couldn't make it today so its postponed until Friday.

And again, thanks for the positives. It keeps me going when I think I just cant deal with it. 

*****


----------



## Troller

Forgot to mention my poor bird Oberon is yet again laying eggs, which stresses out her cage mage Titania. This is the 3rd time in a year so its very unhealthy for her, so we made a Vet appointment. Our house search is hitting the 3 month mark and it finally seems we might have gotten a good prospect with a fantastic area for the buns & birds. We'll give it another two weeks then seriously put in an decision.


----------



## Ilovemyrabbit

That didn't sound too bad. Than again I don't really know much about bonding bunnies. I'm sure they'll be bonded after time though.

Hopefully it'll go well on Friday!

I'm sorry about your bird. I hope she's okay!


----------



## Troller

*Date VI*

I guess today's date would be somewhat of a setback. They had good relations and were doing their usual relaxing for 40min and then the tussle started. I let it ride a little but when it looked like they wouldnt settle down i forced it, petted them to calm them together to calm them down, put them in the tub for 5min so they'd realize just because they fought doesn't mean they get seperated that qucikly, and eventually put them in the others cage. 

I'm not sure what set them off. No dominance displays, no new thing to fight over, just a tussle because I guess it had been a few dates since they fought. Not despondent over it, I was just hoping we had gone over a hump. Oh well, tomorrow's another date date.

*****


----------



## Ilovemyrabbit

I'm sorry it didn't go very well.

Can't wait to hear tomorrowa date, I'll keep my fingers crosed for sucess.


----------



## Troller

*Date VII*

An interesting rabbit bonding day. After month together, months bonding and multiple cage switches, for some odd reason today they started the poop war. Generally they dont poop outside their litterbox much even when in the other's cage, but throught the day they made sure to pill around. The date was 45min of pure avoidance of each other while leaving the pills around. These pills looked like the usual poop, only the smell was more distinct where usually no scent so it's marking poops, but again odd that now its begining.

Also I did something different for this date, I brought them to the neutral territory in the same carrier. I was a little worried that they wouldnt fit but they did. It stressed them out a bit and forced them to be together which is what I was looking to do. Putting Conan in first was the better idea as if Xena goes in first she starts defending the area and making it hard to put him in. So I think it was succesful but Im wondering if I should keep it up or make it a once in a while thing.

So overall a decent date. A number of oddities, no real postives but nothing too bad either. Tomorrow if all goes to plan then the bonding expert should come to see the progress. 

_***_


----------



## Ilovemyrabbit

I don't know that much about bunny bonding but I'm glad there was no fights or agression! Hope it goes good on Friday!


----------



## JBun

If these two end up bonding, I think you should win the perseverance award!


----------



## Troller

*Date VIII

*Today's date had an audience, and the whole thing was filled thrills and chills! I had the bunnies in the kitchen, the usual neutral territory and they were relaxed, ate together, lounged around. The expert was impressed how well behaved they were, how they went into their carriers with little problem (I think they were showing off because its never as smooth as it was tonight), and generally how comfortable they were with each other. He asked me did I ever let them into a bigger area, like letting them wander from the pet room into the kitchen (small hallway but both are connected) with their cage doors open. I said I did it once, but they had a brawl and that's how Conan got injured a while back. He said let's try it now since they seemed so relaxed together and I was game. Ooh boy!

Conan ran into Xena's cage, and Xena right after him. The expert went after them but he was a little slow cause he has a bad hip, and he was sort of in my way. They began to circle each other (first time they've ever done that!) and the fur pulling was intense. Since the expert was there first he tried to break them up but he wasn't quite prepared for it and how big they were and he got bitten for it. I was eventually able to get in there and break them apart. I did a thorough check and both rabbits were completely fine, the only injury was inflicted on the expert. The poor guy was so apologetic, he said he had never seen such a thing and he was glad he got injured and not them, and I just felt a bit bad for him cause it worked out the way he did. He told me he's been a part of so many bunny bonds but he's never seen two rabbits quite like mine and their behaviors. They are friendly in neutral territories and extremely violent in their own territories. Here's the kicker though, I was determined not to let the date end on a bad note so I put both rabbits back in their neutral territory and let them be. I waited a bit without interfering and saw no signs of aggression, decided to pet them for a bit to relax them further, fed them a treat, and opened the carriers where they casually walked in on their own. The expert and me talked a little further and he said he'd talk to his expert who's been at rabbit care for decades and get back to me.

You'd think I'd be upset or feel things went bad, but as long as no one got hurt it's all okay. The expert suggested I could clear out the cages from the pet room, clean the room, and try bond them. Technically i could, but the work would be massive, and while I would not have a problem committing to it if I knew for sure it would work I would hate to do this disturbing my rabbits terribly all for it to fail miserably and then erect the cages all over again to keep them separated. Luckily I am looking for a new house and hope to be in one by the fall so I could try it then, and the expert mentioned he'd be glad to come in with reinforcements and help when the time comes. Either way his insight into rabbits and bonding was well worth it and confirmed to me what I had suspected about my rabbits and my progress. I really liked the fact he said my little buns were odd, it made me feel like I was doing well with the bonding, with the picking up on their behaviors and that it wasn't a failure on my part that's keeping them at a stalemate. 

****


----------



## Chrisdoc

I have followed these two for so long but haven´t laughed so much at their bonding experiences as much as I laughed tonight at the poor expert getting bitten... I really did laugh out loud. The poor man and then saying that he was glad it was him and not the buns....god bless him. 

I´m glad that you got something positive from the experience and it sounds like they will provide more assistance to help you along. 

I too am convinced that these two will eventually be together...this has got to be the longest engagement ever and as Jenny says, you deserve an award for perseverance. 

Look forward to the next date.


----------



## Troller

Longest engagement? I doubt it. Without the breaks I was forced to take, Ive really been at it only 2-3 months. Thats nothing to some who've had to go throught it for years. I think now its starting to reach the mid ground of bonding time. But as always thanks for the flattery, I kind of need it to keep chugging along in good humor.

*Date IX*

Started out a little dodgy, with both rabbits rearing amd shuffling to begin a fight but the three times they attempted I was able to cut them off with a stern verbal warning. I'm surprised that worked considering the brouhaha of the other night but it took thank goodnes. The rest of the date was about lying around, nomming and the occasional exploring by Xena. I even started a game with Xena where 's set to stand a paper towel roll amd she'd follow to knock it down. Conan did not want to participate at all, to busy relaxing he was.

The whole date took 40min. A smidge shorter then the recent dates, but I was very tired. The weird thing was however they were both breathing hard like a reved up engine. At one point I could have sworn I heard Conan tooth pur, at least Im almost sure. I could say more but my eyelids are closing. Till later. 

****


----------



## Azerane

At the very least it seems like things are progressing  Glad you got some good insight from the expert.


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## Troller

*Date X*

Ok the date is still going as of this writing, and its the strangest one Ive ever been a part of or read about. I opened the space up a bit to include the hallway and pet room though their cages were closed. All was well until they stepped outside the kitchen. They rumbled pretty bad with fur pulling, feet kicking out and vicious knockdowns. I pulled them off each other none to gently and placed them back in the kitchen. They were calm again so I tried to open it up again just to the hallway, and again a fight. Put them back in the kitchen and they calmed down and went back to relaxing. So laid back in fact they were nearly on top of each other (I'm adding a pics). Even as I write they are laying closer to each other then they ever did before. WTF! 

I really wasn't pushing them to stay together, I just wanted them to calm down enough so I can put them back. But that was not an issue it seems as they were just so laid back I didn't need to do anything extra to clam them down. I am at a complete loss. I got it, neutral territory is friendly, their own territory is hater time, but I'm just astounded by the night and day difference. Usually once a bond is cool in a neutral area you shift to shared territory but how can I do that when I do it they act like they just met for the first time and are enemies. This just seriously confuses me and I've never read about a bond going quite like this. 

The date started at 7:30 pm, went bad nearly right away and I put them back in to their neutral territory 10min later. Now its 8:11pm, 30min of total relax time after an epic battle for them. So I'm ending this date in a few minutes but not sure what to call it, a breakthrough or a failure. 

****


----------



## Azerane

That is really bizarre.... Have either of them ever marked the hallway with urine or something? I was wondering whether it might help to give the floor a clean with some vinegar, it would likely take away some smells and might make it seem a bit more neutral perhaps?

This is going to be a dumb question but have you been swapping items from their cages?


----------



## Troller

Not a dumb question at all, yes I have swapped things and what's more every other night they are in the others cage. They pretty much share everything at this point. The hallway itself was never either ones territory so I'm not sure sanatizing it would help. I have a small and I'm not so sure how smart it is fear, but I'm wondering if carpeting makes it more desireable to fight. I might try bonding in the bedroom to see what comes of that.


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## Troller

*Date XI*

Today I kept things simple, no new intro methods. It went well, although there was a few lunges and no new friendly manuevers on their part like yesterday. I was running late on everything today so this date was only 35min long.

Spoke to the Bonding Expert about what occursd yesterday and his advice was to keep things as is and that he's got an idea but he wants to double check with others. That's fine, I'm in no rush and just want to bond my little buns as safely and gently as possible. I just fear it really will take something drastic such as a move to an entirely different home or a complete tear down of cages and clean up of the whole house to make things nuetral. Time will tell.

Today I feel a little bad however. I generally get very little sleep so I plan with that but today I overslept, getting an actual 7 hours of sleep! So this made me late and unable to give the pet room the thorough cleaning it warrants. All i could do is empty litter boxes and wash them, and sweep up the cages. No vaccuuming or scrubbing. Oh well they didnt seem too put out but still.

Laslty the birds are going to the vet for their annual check up (they're both now 1'year old!). We're worried that Oberon might have become egg bound, meaning she will never stop laying eggs whichcan be detrimental to her health. We hope the Vet has a solution to what can be done about it cause 3 cycles of egg laying in a year is pretty bad.


----------



## PaGal

I find it odd that if the hallway is neutral territory why did they go at it like that? 

I was thinking at first that if they are ok in the neutral territory of the kitchen and only fight when in what they see as their territory (their cages) then if you buy a home they should in theory be fine in the new home from the get go as it is no ones territory.

Sorry if I'm not making much sense as the communication part of my brain always seems to be the last to wake up.


----------



## Troller

*Date XII*

A pleasant date. They did lunge a time or two straight off the bat but afterwards calmed down, though there felt like a tension throughout the whole date. I'm surprised how well they listen to my verbal commands as I was able settle them by command or whistle. I'm not saying it always works, but 70% of the time aint bad. I also saw that they huddled very close together for pets, closer then usual which heartened me. One thing I do question about bunny bonding is the role of the bonder. See, they relaxed so much because I layed down with them and petted equally and only when they looked like they'd get aggressive. So is that a good sign or do they behave only hecause I enforce it? The whole date went 55min, so we're seeing a steady increase of time, though I can't do anything outside of neutral territory.

***

PaGal, I think they were still riled up some so the neutrality of the hallyway didnt matter. That and the hallway is carpeted while the kitchen is not. Xena does fine on all surfaces while Conan is very uncomfortable on tiles and hardwood. And I'm certainly hoping a move would help, though I truly wish to bond them before we move and just cement it in a new house.

Speaking of, since any new dwelling I have will actually have a yard, I was making some preliminary plans about a stationary aviary/rabbit run. Seemed like a good thought and I was getting all excited until I tallked to a more experienced Flemish Giant owner who explained to me that Flemish's conserve a lot of energy (sweet wordage for being lazy) so they'll look around the perimeter, find a shady spot and set down to eat anything within their circle of reach. A giant sized run would be almost pointless, as well as the idea to leave it stationary since any accumulated poop in one area could lead to parasites and other pests so any run would need to be mobile. The best thing would be short supervised outings in an x-pen. So there goes my intentions of building a grandiose structure. Oh well.

Also, I weighed my little buns today. Conan at 1 years old andanmonth weighs in at 14lb.1oz. and Xena at 8 months is 12lb.4oz. He's about average, perhaps a tad over but well within Flemish guidelines and she might be a little under. Either way I think it's good.


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## Troller

*Date XIII*

A very good date. I do however question if their friendliness towards each other is based on my proximity to them. The whole date was an hour long and at least 40min was spent with theirds heads either forehead to forehead or cheek to cheek. But I was right there, laying with them on my stomach with my own face as close as six inches away. Whenever I would back up to do something they would either disengage, Conan would make a quick move towards her or Xena would lunge (only happened once though). So are they on their best behavior because my presence is either stressing them out or relaxing them (I think relaxing since each is expecting me to pet them) and if so are they truly bonding with each other or just me?

*****

Another worrisome thing. Found scabs on each of them, on Xena right below the base of her right ear, in Conan right on his left side. Nothing big, and it looks plenty healed so its old, probably from last weeks scuffle when the Expert Bonder was here. Poor buns I did a check and hadn't seen it until just today so I feel terrible. Maybe it happened later, but thats no excuse for me not to notice. Oh well, neither looks worse for wear and if it that thats been the cause of tension then at least it's something solid to work through. Anyway since the scuffle last week I've had zero tolerance on their aggression so if i even think I see something about to go down I nip it in the bun...Yeah, I made a pun so what!

A few more odd thing I've observed in no order. The buns have been more hostile in each others cages during pen switches, something that never occurred before. Conan's poops have been smaller, yet he still drinks, eats and poops as usual so I'm at a loss. Also since we started putting his food dish and hay slightly further away from his litter box he's been pooping everywhere in his cage so I set it all back to see if that's the cause. He's still leaving marking poops here and there, Xena doesn't, so who knows who's winning. Titania and Oberon's Vet checks went well, Titania is a good weight, Oberon is not so we got to work on her. The Vet said nothing can really be done about her egg laying though except a few little home things so we'll have to manage.


----------



## Troller

I come home today and I find Xena chewing away at the foam mat, I mean truly just lazing about with her back legs kicked out just casually chewing apart the mat out from under her.  I never had a good feeling about these puzzle mats and its just being constantly confirmed. The horse stall mat $50 and still going strong with no fade out and little chewing. These puzzle mats $40 the first set, replacement set another $20 and it looks like Ill have to replace it again. This time stall mat, who cares that it weighs near 100lb its rabbit tough!

Of course I also got to worry she ingested some of the mat. A little yes, but she's done similar before and chewed on other things. I'm not saying she's in the clear but i always keep an eye on her and so far so good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KX_F-WDl6A&feature=youtu.be


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## Troller

*Date XIV

* :woohoo YES!!! F&*K YEAH!!!:time:We had a breakthrough today, a long awaited highly anticipated moment of bunny bonding! First Xena did a full on flop during the date which was unique. She does those all the time in her cage, but not on a date. Then when they were close Conan actually groomed her! And I got evidence in video! It was all so sweet until they separated to self groom and wander around. Of course the moment had to get ruined when Xena got greedy and forcefully presented herself to Conan, he got angry and I think nipped and she started to box. I quickly shut that down, petted them and they went back to relaxing. But finally, I got to see bunnies groom each other, and it was fantastic! I am so elated and finally feel like I got some reinforcement that it can work, I'm not nuts, and my work has been for something. So a victory, but the bonding uhh...war (?) continues. The date went an hour, ended on good terms and we'll see tomorrow what happens. 

*******


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## Ilovemyrabbit

That's great that it ended well. Yes! I hope they bond soon! I'm going to watch that video now.


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## Troller

Oops, I put it all pics and video under the wrong post, but its still there.


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## JBun

That's so great! It just goes to show, even though rabbits may seem to dislike each other in the beginning bonding attempts, they can learn to like each other over time, with LOTS of persistance.


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## Troller

*Date XV*

This date was the step back I've been expecting but hoping against. From the get go Xena seemed amped for whatever reason, and both were tense around each other. The first 15min was a cold war, my wife then came for groom watching unfortunatly she ended up in the middle of a bunny battle and paid the price by being bitten poor thing. I feel horrible about that, I think I could have prevented it from happening but I couldn't get in the way in time. 

She left to tend her wound (not too bad but it really shouldn't have happened) and I force calmed both rabbits by laying them side to side and petting. They don't like being forced into that position but if you pet them long enough they tend to calm down. The last 30min was Conan lambchopped by Xena's outstretched feet so they must have considerably cooled down. Stiil both remained a little too excitedbut no further incidents occured. So this date was definitly a set back from what was achieved the day before.

***


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## Troller

*Date XVI*

Another bad date. They weren ust spoiling to fight, well more so Conan then Xena but since Conan was mostly the unprovoked victim last date I cant blame him. It wasn't pretty,;the tried to fight but I stopped it from becoming. Spent the majority of the time being very hands on and active. My sister and neice are in town so I let them watch the date and when things appeared calm enough let my niece pet Xena. All went well and I think at the end both buns were relaxed. Date was shorter today due to lack of time, only 45min.

**


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## Azerane

They are just bouncing back and forth with how those dates are going. Best of luck for another breakthrough soon!


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## Troller

*Date XVII*

An hour long date of some aggression, a lot of presenting and a little locking forheads together. Won't say it was bad but its a shame that it feels a bit negative since that one great date. Conan is carrying some scabs where his fur got pulled so I get why he's a bit on edge while Xena looks fine but very pushy, well at least tonight. Well the bonding continues...

*****


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## Troller

*Date XVIII*

Today's date was an hour of ho hum, so I guess that's good. They laid across from each other for long stretches and did attempt two lunges but were easily disuaded from an actual fight. In fact a few times they broke off a confrontation on their own, just like the old days. The tension of the last few dates was missing as well. So all in all, nothing postive but no negatives so a succesful date.

*****


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## Ilovemyrabbit

Oh well, at least it was succesful. Hoping for great news next time!


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## Troller

*Date XIX

*Well 50 minutes of complete laying down next to each other relaxing comfortably and bam, they try to fight. Stopped it while they we're near lunging at each other but it was a shame it had to happen so close to the time I put them away. Oh well, at least it took that long for them to rile themselves up for it. They looked so cute next to each other side by side, it was nice while it lasted. 

******


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## Troller

*Date XX*

Tonights date was much like yesterdays only no fight or attempted fight. Xena dead flopped and yawned several times while Conan nearly groomed her. I think he would he's just not crazy about the idea without getting groomed himself once too. I'm hoping this string of good dates and closeness means I might finally be getting over that hump. One can hope. One hour and all good.

******


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## Ilovemyrabbit

I hope the dates continue to go well and get better and better. They will be such an adorable couple.


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## Troller

*Date XXI*

A rough start where there was some lunges so I thought it was going to be one of those bad step back dates. Actually they ended up settling down and while I'm sure both were annoyed that neither groomed the other, Xena started to slowly curl up to Conan, something she has never done before. So I'm taking it as a good sign. 

The whole date went on for an hour and ended on a really good note. I guess soon I should push for more time since today it looked like neither of them wanted to end it but I don't know if I should push my luck. I also feel like something good is going on but i cant quite say what, its just a feeling. We'll see tomorrow I guess.

*****


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## Ilovemyrabbit

I hope its a good sign. Can't wait to here how tomorrows date ends.


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## Troller

*Date XXII*

Xena groomed Conan for the first time! !YAY! And then they promptly fought! !UGH! Seems Conan was the agressor, after he got groomed of all things. But then Xena was nippy all night, nipping me and everything. The date had big highs and small lows, but all in all i'm happy how it went overall. One hour, some tense moments but in the end all of us stretched out relaxing. 

So now it seems these rabbits went from being mostly amibivilant to each other to either fighting or relaxing together. I guess that's some progress on month 3... Still I got to be careful cause and have zero tolerance discipline in keeping these tao from tangling because they do damage to each other quickly if its allowe to happen. So I never see if their lunging would turn into circling or kicking, which is a good thing, but then I also am not sure if it would be calmer then that and just the actions of two rabbits trying to establish hierarchy. Oh well, tomorrow is another date. 

******


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## Ilovemyrabbit

At least she groomed him. Hopefully tomorrows date will go well.


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## Troller

*Date XXIII*

Wow...I have video too, I'll add it as soon as it uploads but I needed to get this down. Xena groomed Conan, 3 times for many minutes. I was stunned. And they even had a small disagreement when Conan was being pushy. Xena nipped him, he backed off, and they settled down with no fuss. I was pleased and well, didn't expect it from Xena. Could have sworn Conan, even being grumpy as he is, would cave. Well technically he did last week, but still.

I'm elated, though its still tempered by wariness as i know these things take step backs. I worry again about how they may he getting too comfortable in the neutral space. Conan has his spot there and he protects it. I'd switch the neutral place but things have gone so swimmingly I'm a little scared to do it. They sometimes bicker between cages, especially if i've switched them. And then there's the whole i hit an hour on these dates and I'm not sure I cam do more then that on a daily basis. I can dedicate more time on my weekends, and maybe one day out of the week but not daily and I wonder if changing routine time like that will be detrimental. I got things to think about.

******* Hey the first 5 star!


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## Troller

Here it is. The first few minutes is grooming happening and the rest is just to see if it happens again. It does later another two times but I figured one set of footage was enough. http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?feature=plcp&v=pgY8_CzJb18


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## Apebull

WOO HOO sounds like things are finally look good. And I love how Conan starts washing his face right away. Such a boy eewww get these girl cooties off of me LOL.


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## Chrisdoc

I do so like seeing videos of the buns, they are just so lovely and wow, that grooming went on for quite a while and I loved how he just sat there cleaning himself up...looks like progress to me. I think you are so close, these two do look great together.


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## Troller

*Date XXIV*

More grooming from Xena, several times over the course of the one hour date lasting for minutes. Conan however is still being ornery, protecting his spot and chasing her off. Poor girl. Not sure if the dominant one displays aggression after bonding or what, it's something hazy covered in bonding research. Either way I got to be pleased that their progressing.

So tomorrow since I got more time I plan to let the date go longer. If things still sty positive I'll take them to another neutral spot to test if this goodwill just happens in the kitchen or could it be extended. Thanks for all the positive comments. 

*******


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## Ilovemyrabbit

Tried to watch the video but it wouldn't let me. Hope tomorrows date goes well.


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## Troller

*Date XXV*

Ran this date about 20min longer, almost an hour and a half. There was grooming from Xena but also lunging by her. I'm not quite understanding Conan's aggression. Partly demand for grooming on his terms, partly protecting the one spot he's claimed in the kitchen. So do I continue in the kitchen as is, alter it to take away his comfort spot or try another space. Putting a new situation might be an all new starting point and set me back to square one. Decisions, decisions...

*****


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## Troller

I'm taking this moment to vent about a crappy weekend. Tried to help the In-Laws and my owj family by buying a house together. Me and my wife more then have the yearly income to get a loan but currently lack the whole down payment, while the In-Laws lack the ability to sustain a long term loan and need to live somewhere with less remt. This and other reasons should have been a win-win, but while me and my wife have realistic expectations and a willingness to compromise my In-Laws lack vision and financial werewithal. So as of this weekend our hopes for a house have fallen through (after looking at over 50 houses where even the realtor suggest that we might want to go our own way cause the In-Laws are being unrealsitic). Me and my wife will just have to wait a few years to do it on our own, all the while watching our money get wasted on rent.

Add to this i go to look in on my disabled mom like I usually do and find a sweet parking spot which is unique in her neighborhood and as I'm reversing into the spot and nearly in I get side swiped! I believe the old lady was trying to make the light. So now I have a week of getting the car fixed and working out the insurance claim. Totally a crap weekend. 

Luckily I got my rabbits though...

*Date XXVI*

Went ahead and did today's date in a shared play area. Both were excited and trying to make breaks out the enclosed area. They lunged at each other quite a few times in the begining but I was able to seperate them or spray them back. A lot of spraying back, and i got nipped a few times but mostly due to Xena demanding pets or me out of her way. Anyway the first 20 minutes were hectic but then they settled down and ignored each other for really the duration od the date (about an hour).

So while there was no grooming, no positive physical contact and a lot of tense moments I have to think it was a pretty good date. I mean this is not quite neutral territory (though both don't visit the living room often) so I expected territorial behavior. Tomorrow I'm going to run the standard kitchen date and I think flip-flop from now on.

*****


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## Troller

*Date XXVII*

The date is winding down. It was a conventional one taking place in the kitchen though for only the second time I let them be alone for some stretches. I made sure to stay nearby and listen out, but really only had to jump once and check on them when I heard a noise. Conan again was being a bit aggressive, Xena was lunging, nipping but also grooming, but they generally remained behaved through out it all. I'm pleaed out how this one went, though I wish I could figure out why Conan is grumpy on some occasions and others not. 

*****


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## Troller

*Unscheduled Date I*

Well...during the course of the day, during the span of near 9 hours when we were sleeping and then when I went out to do errands, apparently Conan's cage was either loose and he escaped or not locked at all. It was during Xena's run time so she was out. So when I got in to check on them in the pet room I find fur everywhere, Conan in Xena's pen loafing and Xena herself outside her pen also loafing. It look like Conan couldn't get back in his cage after squeezing out so he took her's, so I guess he won but then it was his fur that was predominately all over the place. Did a thorough check and both seemed well, intact and no visible injuries. 

*Date XXVIII*

I wasn't going to have a bonding date but I wanted to again thoroughly check them with my wife helping. Since the best light was in the kitchen we did it one by one there, and since we were already there I decided to do a short 20min date to see how they behaved. I was fully ready to separate and put them away with no hesitation. 
Turns out they were well behaved. No aggression to be seen, and Xena groomed Conan for a bit. So I'm really not sure where I stand on the bonding as of now. I'll look out for injuries I guess and maybe suspend bonding for now. Maybe not. I'll think on it.

*****


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## Azerane

I'm not that informed with bonding, but I should think that if the date went well, there would be no reason to take a break. Yes Conan got out and they had a fight, but it's also possible that they were able to have it out and come closer to deciding who was boss. It's entirely up to you, but I would keep going with it.


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## Troller

*Date XXIX*

It was like a Jekyll & Hyde date. Tried it in a shared area, the livng room and they fought. I might have let a little aggression slide a little longer then I should because I was hoping they'd work it out but no such luck. The fight wasn't the worst they've had but it wasn't good either. I calmed them down and petted them side by side.

Then I played a hunch. Rather then putting them back in their enclosures I put them in the kitchen neutral area. Some initial lunging occured at first and then they both relaxed, kicked out their feet and Xena started grooming Conan...I mean I was even able to leave them alone while I went to vaccuum the living room from all the fur that flew! So it's like night and day with them. 

****


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## Apebull

Your buns are bipolar lol. I have no advice. Could you ask the bonding person you had come in and see what they say?


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## Troller

I'm at work and my wife calls me at about 5am. I pleasantly surprised she managed to stay up so long (we're night shift workers but on our days off its hard to maintain that) only to find out its a "your bunnies have been naughty call ." Apparently one of them, I'm pretty sure Xena, decided my wife's purse was fun to chew holes through...sigh. Poor wifey, first I get into a fender bender on Sunday costing us $$, and now my bunnies eat her purse. Well I better gets these rabbits bonded soon so we can start street performing to reimburse all these damages...


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## qtipthebun

Eating a purse? That's a new one. We had one rip the seams out of a down blanket once and throw feathers all over the place (I was not amused...I have a bizarre feather phobia), they've eaten pillows, and Q nibbled a hole in a couple of board game boxes, but never purses. Xena just wanted to look pretty, I guess!


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## Troller

Today I'm giving the buns a break from bonding. I figure tomorrow I'm off and I've been meaning to try a marathon bond date in neutral territory. So next date I'm going to set up the area for a long term stay and I got 10 hours to see what happens. Wish us luck.


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## Apebull

Good luck!


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## Chrisdoc

Ups and downs with these two but I think they really do want to be together so keep going. 

Imagine her eating the purse, it´s amazing what they will have a nibble on if they´re in the mood. Nothing is safe from them lol.


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## Troller

*Marathon Date I

*An 8 hour date extravaganza...and I'm not sure it did any good. In fact it might have set things back. I set up everything for a long haul, a water bottle, food bowl and jumbo litterbox. The first ten minutes was exploring, then some eating and then on the the fighting over the litterbox. Now this isn't the first time they've had a litterbox at their date. When I first put a box in there was some fighting but that eventually went away. The difference was that was a smaller box, this one is a jumbo sized one (the one they're going to share when and if they ever bond) and I guess it was new cause for territorial fighting. The fighting wasn't the worst but it was bad. I almost ended the date but decided it would be better to soldier on.

There were long swaths of bunnies relaxing and then fighting. No chasing, just lunging, leaping and lying on the side to kick at each other. Two times I put them in the stress box (cramped quarters) to calm them down. The first time it didn't work, the second time calmed them down and after that they chose to avoid each other. However I could have sworn I saw Xena actually groom Conan in the box but that could have been wishful thinking. The date ended with an hour and a half of lying around loafing at opposite ends of the kitchen. So I guess that was as high a good point I could use to end the date.

Why I fear I might have set things back is only once did they actually lay a few inches apart, most of their time was spent at a distance. Well, when they weren't fighting over the litterbox. I tried to swap them so they'd take turns in it, I tried to put them in it both and pet them so they'd be together and calm in the litterbox but nothing worked. Or maybe it did at the end because they both sat outside the litterbox. To say I'm a bit disappointed is an understatement, but not because the bond is a failure, I just question whether it's wise to keep continuing. Conan seems to be getting the worst of the confrontations of late, missing a lot of fur and I notice some scratches on him but not Xena. Xena has gotten it too, but not for a while. I might be letting my ego get the better of me and not thinking about their welfare. It's just at some moments you see a spark with them, like they can get along. Even when they fight not matter how bad it is they never seem to carry animosity like I've read other fighting rabbits maintain. Anyway I'll sleep on it. At most I may have a normal bunny date tomorrow to see how things are and see in two weeks if I try another marathon date.


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## Troller

*Date XXX*

A rather ominous or I guess raunchy numbered date. I only put them together just to see how they react to each other after the marathon. Any hint of an attack and I was going to put them away and quite possibly suspend bonding. Well no such thing happened but things seemed did feel a but strained. 

The kitchen was bare yesterday, it was just the two of them. Conan came off relaxed in the area but skittish around Xena. He was always aware of her and if she approached he would eventually wander off. Xena was also relaxed but unlike Conan was friendly and appeared like she just wanted to be near him. He did something uncharacteristic for him, he came to me and loafed next to me. Protection from the big bad girl maybe? He has been getting the worse end of their scuffles. Well at one point next to me they did make nose contact and took my petting. The majority of the date was spent with their feet kicked out on opposite sides of the grounds.

So as a date in itself not so good. Looks like they took a step back. But considering the hectic days they've had I guess this is positive since neither was looking or wanting to fight. 

****


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## Azerane

Certainly a positive date considering there was no aggression etc. I certainly understand your point though regarding their welfare in terms of, how long is too long to keep persisting. Because it is entirely possible that they simply may never get along, or at least well enough to share living quarters on a permanent basis. Still, if you're seeing progress in their bond I can't see why it wouldn't be worth it to keep trying.


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## Troller

*Date XXXI*

Went through another date today. The first hour was them avoiding each other but lambchopped out. Conan stayed close to me again. I decided in the last few minutes to sit down next to Xena, so Conan followed and laid down next to both of us. Xena started to groom Conan and I thiught maybe the strained relations had passed.

I also played another hunch. Since i started at 7pm and didnt have to go to work until 10pm, I figured why not leave them there together, figuring if anything happened I would seperate them and call an end. In the kitchen I'm actually able to leave them by themselves with me within earshot. I trust them as long as nothing new is present. I did have the small litterbox in there and a plate of greens, but those are standard. Now without me physically there they didnt really remain close, not like before, but they didn't scuffle either. At some points I coupd hear and see Xena chase Conan off of Conan run off, but both did lie down and sit around. So 3 hours and it was a little tense but no fighting. 

****


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## kirbyultra

Hi there! I live nearby, in Long Island  I just flipped through your blog and read a lot of your bonding date entries. Such meticulous documenting of every encounter - amazing! Your dedication will not be for naught  

Your bunnies are gorgeous and I love their names.


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## Troller

Thanks kirbyultra, my family appreciates the oh so sweet compliments, especially when struggling with my little rascals. It heartens me when people read the many entries and still say these two can work or that I'm doing right by persevering cause sometimes I have my doubts.


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## JBun

It can be so hard to know if a bond will work out, especially with them not instantly taking to each other. I think only you can really know if it is going to work out or not, since you are the one that knows them best, and are experiencing the difficulties of the bond. I think that sometimes perseverance can work, and eventually the rabbits get used to each other enough that they can learn to tolerate each other, and maybe even learn to like each other over time. But I also think there are some rabbits that will never get along because of their personality types. It may also be that they may be able to bond at a much later time, after having some time to get over their disagreements with each other and having more time to get used to being separate but around each other. I think we RO folks always hope for a happily bonded couple, but it doesn't always work out that way, and that's ok too.


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## kirbyultra

It's hard to say whether the buns will really ever get along, and it's ultimately up to the two of them. But there are things that we can do to help them get on better. Your buns have been together dozens of time for countless hours already and you've seen them really get into it badly with each other and you've seen Xena groom Conan. They're mixed signals but the potential is there. 

For Conan to go after Xena right after she groomed him, my question is does he think she's being too presumptuous? Maybe that she hasn't earned the right to lick him? And he still isn't sure about her given their past?

Plenty of people come to our rescue looking for bondmates for their existing bunnies and what we always tell them is to go as slow as you need to go so that they never get a chance to get aggressive with each other. I know you are way beyond that because you have set them on their own for upwards of an hour on some dates already. I've read that you pick up on signals from them that they're about to circle each other and things like that. You've seen the warning signs of when one is about to get nippy or about to lunge. Just don't ever let it get there. If they're fine together for 3 minutes before somebun gets cranky, then the date should end at 3 minutes. Rest for a while, then try again later in the day if you have time. If they are happily ignoring each other for 90 minutes but at the 91st minute someone starts to chase, the date should end right then and there, not after someone's gotten a paw to the face or fur in the mouth. It's very important to end the dates on a *positive note*. The buns should go back to their own territories knowing that they were with the other bunny for a period of time and nothing bad happened, and that they shouldn't feel threatened. 

If you can only consistently manage 60 minutes a day, then plan to go 60 minutes and end it there. It is better progress for the bunnies to consistently have no lunging and fighting together for an hour a day for two weeks straight than for them to sometimes fight and sometimes not fight because you're pushing the 2 hour mark. The idea is to get your bunnies trained to understand that they are safe with each other, and there is absolutely nothing to feel upset about whenever the other one is around. Once they've achieved zero aggression for a set period of time, you can comfortably extend their time together. We've had people who literally had to start their bonding process at the 60 second mark. Set the buns down in the neutral zone, set the timer and after 60 seconds, pick them up, and put them back into their own areas. Work up to 5 minutes. Then 7 minutes. Then 10 minutes, and so on. The longer they go without being bothered by the other, the more confident they'll feel around them.


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## Chrisdoc

I think we´ve all got so involved with these two that we so want it to work and see them happily together. I still get the feeling that they will work things out but as with others, you know your two better than anyone so you have to decide what´s best for them. We´ll all still be here rooting for you and for them and hoping for our happy ending.


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## kirbyultra

Chrisdoc said:


> We´ll all still be here rooting for you and for them and hoping for our happy ending.



Absolutely this! Apologies in advance for the big long reply that no one asked for from me! Overall, from the outside looking in, I do feel like your buns have what it takes. They just seem unsure of each other for now but they show promise to be a bonded pair.


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## Troller

*Date XXXII*

Left them again today for 3 hours. Partly because I had to clean their cage and partly because it went so well yesterday it figured lets try it again. In the beginning they were lying next to each other, eating over one another and Xena groomed Conan. Towards the end however, pretty much in the last 20min Xena started chasing off Conan, or maybe Conan started running off. I'm not entirely sure because I stayed in earshot but not there though I did check often. They did end with a solid 10min time of just laying around which to me was a good sign to end it.

Seems in some cases that everything my rabbits do, they do far more slowly then other bonding rabbits I've read about. It took Conan two months into it to start marking. Now 4 months into it Xena has started chasing Conan. Usually Conan used to stand his ground but now he runs away. No fighting which is great, though its weird seeing Conan running but being the one getting groomed. 

*****

Wow, never saw this many replies all at once. Thanks folks for the advice. Obviously I'm not taking it so slow right now taking that many hours its just that I have worked up to that point. Though I see a lot of positive signs I also see quite a few negative and me and the wife are at the point that if things take another set back, a real fight, we're ready to call it quits with bonding and just enjoy two lovely seperate rabbits. We're not trying to be selfish, of course them being together would make our lives easier but for sure it would improve their's, such as more run time. We just dont want to see our buns get hurt in the process. I'm sure all bonders feel that way so I'm trying to he as objective as I can on the matter and really question my perceptions in this process. 

Here's my current musings and I'd like any advice others have who have had successful bondings. They can both be in neutral territory relatively well, the issue comes up when either something new is brought into the mix or shared territory is used as the bonding site. How do you lessen the impact of these two things? When its mentioned to clean the area thoroughly of bunny influence (such as shared territory) does that mean water/vinegar on carpets, sofa etc and just how effective is that on those things?


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## Troller

Forgot to post this pic.


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## kirbyultra

I think it's entirely up to you and your wife and you shouldn't feel bad that you want to throw in the towel on bonding. You guys know your bunnies better than anyone and your judgment of how far these guys can go is probably the right way to go in the end. Bonding bunnies is so stressful - for the humans and for the bunnies. 

If you had more than the two buns there's a good chance that a good rub down with vinegar on surfaces the third bun had access to would be a start but you don't have that problem. Shared territory where each individual bunny may have claimed separate as their own (it's theirs when it's THEIR turn to play and the other is safely put away) is definitely tougher. Any sane person can't be expected to destroy all rabbity scents in their living room every time they wanted to do a bonding date. Vinegar is very effective at destroying the proteins in urine so it does work, but it also stinks  I don't remember reading if you did but this one woman bonded her two boys in two weeks by swapping their cages for 12 hours at a time! She made territorial dispute an advantage! 

Maybe some misdirection would be a good way to distract your bunnies in shared territory. Load em up in a big laundry basket and take them for a walk up and down a hallway they've never been to, or a basement, or in the garage... It takes them out of their element so when they go back in their bonding site they're less focused on where they are and more about who they're with. Stress bonding is a method some people find very effective. The buns get stressed out a bit in a controlled environment, and they'll seek comfort in each other. Another way to maybe bribe some kisses is to smear some banana on their noses or rub a drop of vanilla extract on their heads. 

It is so funny how your buns can go so many hours uneventfully. Maybe they're having bunny conversations we don't pick up on. That picture of Conan slipping his head under Xena trying to have a bite tells a small story. It looks like he wants her attention but she's too busy for him at the moment. While she does selectively groom him, there seems to be still some dispute over who's the top bunny here. Without knowing who's really the boss, it's hard to solidify a relationship.

When I was bonding my pair, Penny tried to get Kirby to groom her and she'd try to slip her head under his head, legs, stomach... she tried! Sometimes he would oblige and sometimes he would ignore her. He would get so annoyed by her attempts that finally he did end up boxing her and got her good in the face. After a couple of times of being smacked around she got scared and she stopped trying. She did not fight back. Eventually so much "nothing" happened during their dates that I decided it was time to let them go a full day together without knowing who was the alpha still. Weeks went by before Kirby started to lower his head and demand grooming. Penny would try and refuse at first but eventually she gave in. Today, Kirby demands and Kirby gets. Penny demands rarely and gets it even more rarely. :boxing


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## Troller

Just listing some of the things I have done or am doing. I tried to do the whole smear apple sauce, then banana on the bridge of noses. Neither noticed it and all i ended up with was stick rabbits . I swap their cages every day and I know Conan feels both cages are his (though lately he's been marking poops a lot in hers) while Xena isn't so obvious but relaxes just fine in both. Stressing them is a strange thing, it seems to work on Xena meanwhile on Conan he just appears so laid back he doesn't care. Both handle car rides a little to easy though I haven't done it in a while, the bath tub only stresses them while their in it and once outside it's like nothing happened. I haven't tried putting them over a dryer since I don't have machines. I did try the laundry basket but and it stressed out Xena but their big rabbits and she nearly leaped out while i was carrying it. I can't remember any other tricks except the exchanging stuffy's thing I might have tried though I'm sure I've tried a lot more then I'm listing. Oh, lately I've been stressing them by putting them in the same carrier which does hqve a minor effect on them. Mostly they both seem so unflappable...

As for the pic, Conan was the one lying there and Xena decided to go over him like that to eat. First time i've ever seen that happen.


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## kirbyultra

It sounds like you've gone through the entire thing with them already and it is more or less up to them now. Two big bunnies who take everything in stride... never would have thought it'd work against you that way! But like I said, it sounds like they have good potential if they're withstanding long periods of time around each other, they just need to figure each other out and that could take months, some people bond on and off for well over a year. It's the ones where they see each other and within seconds are circling, lunging and pulling out fur and skin that are probably not going to bond. It's nerve racking and stressful. If you decide to keep going to see if it's possible, we'd love to hear all about the ongoing adventures of our hero buns. If you decide it's best for everybun to let things be, it's fine too. There is kind of life the buns can live unbonded, too. It's not like they'll never see each other or smell each other. Some bunnies feel most at ease when they are aware there is another bun around and their daily routine is to just keep tabs on that bun's comings and goings. It is a form of stimulus and it keeps them busy. Two unbonded bunnies are less bored than a single lonely bunny


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## Troller

*Date XXXIII*

This one went only 45min and I might have done something wrong at the end. See I'm only on 4 hours sleep and had to go to work but I didnt want to miss a day of bonding. My wife is off, but she's not confident about breaking them up so I was only going to let it last about an hour or hour and a half. But then i heard a commotion and saw chasing and thay Conan got some fur pulled so I instantly stopped the date.

No cool down period, no waiting for them to calm down, no stress trick to lessen animosity. Just didn't have it in me today and I certainly don't want to see more of Conan's fur pulled. So I'm going to put the blame on this date on me for just not having the patience or probably the right tempermant to do this today. I'll try tomorrow and if I get another negative reaction then I might...well I'll see tomorrow and figure it out.

****


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## Ilovemyrabbit

Hope today's date went well.


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## Troller

*Date XXXIV*

Three successful hours, along with some never before seen oddities. For the most part the buns were pretty chill, however they have both found a favorite spot and there's some jockeying for it. Conan takes to running from aggression now or maybe its Xena takes to chasing him off. Either way besides one incident of fur pull from Xena the rabbits were cordial with each other. 

The first oddity came before the day date during the day. My wife tells me they were grooming each other between the cages. Forgot to ask her who, but this sure beats the infrequent occasions when they try to fight between cages and is a first for them that we've witnessed. The second oddity comes during the date. Xena spent much of her time planting herself in front of Conan wither her rump to his nose. First time she's done such a thing consistently and on purpose. Conan then took to either grooming her feet and nether regions or nipping her. I couldn't quite tell but since Xena's reactions were rather mild I think it was the former. 

Towards the end they got a little squirrely, or I guess more aptly rabbity and a bit more chasing was done. At times I thought a full on fight was about to happen when Conan would rush Xena (I think she thought so to) but all he would do is slide into the contested spot and hunker his head and body down looking like he both captured the spot and wanted grooming at the same time. Xena just stood her ground and both huddled together in a ball looking rather uncomfortable until one of them scampered off. So again, i think this date went well. 

I'll probably continue dating until I do another marathon date on Friday unless a set back occurs. I'm still considering putting an end to bonding for now but since both aren't harming each other I guess I should give them a chance. Or me a chance, whichever.

*****


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## Troller

*Date XXXV*

Today is cage cleaning day so I left them to themselves in the kitchen while I cleaned the pet room. Of course they were within ear shot and I had a visual of them. Three hours went by and all was well.

Now specifics, well Xena chased off Conan quite a few times, Conan rushed her at times to get around her, but there was no fighting. They spent a majority of the date lying on opposite sides but looked quite relaxed. No grooming that I saw. In a sense this date was a step back because there was no progress or even the usual close behavior they've exhibited before, but again absolutely no fighting so I'm okay with it.

Tomorrow I plan another 10 hour marathon date so in truth it's tomorrow I'll see if this thing can work and I continue it.

****


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## Troller

Date went a little long so I thought it was angood time for a snooze and I had a great pillow.


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## Troller

*Date XXXVI*


So this marathon date went fantastic! 9 hours and so many good things occurred. For one, both Conan and Xena took turns grooming each other. They would also lambchopped side by side and in other ways bonded bunnies would relax together. Best of all, no fighting! Sure there was chasing off and such, but Conan has stopped standing his ground. It seems like he's the submissive one and is making strides in accepting that. 

My plan is to definitely continue bonding, and going forward to keep dates as long I can until I have a spare weekend in the next few weeks to cement a bond. The trick though is they are behaving well in neutral territory, eventually I'm going to have to try a shared area and I'm afraid that they're just too territorial for that to go smoothly. Anyway I shouldn't dwell on that and should just enjoy that things went so swimmingly.

*****+*


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## Chrisdoc

YIPPPPEEE....that is such good news and so positive. I am so glad things went well and that you´re going to perservere, a happy note for me to the end of a very long weekend, thanks for brightening my Sunday you two. :biggrin2:


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## Troller

*Date XXXVII*

Well as usual after the positive comes the negative. Two steps forward and one step back. Yesterdays date started off antagonistic and pretty much stayed that way. I did leave them together for 3 hours, but during the middle of it they got into a scuffle and fur pulling was involved. I stopped it before it got too bad, and afterwards they mostly ignored or chased each other off. There was some brief times that Conan groomed Xena but generally it wasn't a comfortable date. 

I'm going to date today but I just don't have the time to make it a long one. We'll see how it goes.

****


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## Troller

*Date XXXVIII*

What a downer. Had a day day so this was to be a pick me up of sorts. Put the buns together and of course the begin to squabble from the get go. The chasing off is ok but now Conan has begun lunging which was a thing he didnt do (guess he's learning from Xena). They seem to be fighting over a spot, and when I take even that spot away they still fight over something.

That and they've begun peeing. 4 months of bonding and that has never happened.'oh it started once last night but I took it as an abberation, tonight twice and i know Conanfor sure did it but I can't be positive that Xena didnt do it as well. And we we're making such progress. 

Before I ended the hour long date I decided to stress them by putting them together in a single carrier for 10min. Tomorrow i might enlist the bathtub. Either way i'm disappointed but the point has been truly hit home that bonding takes patience.

***


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## Troller

*Date XXXIX*

It started with Conan grooming Xena, then a scuffle went on at the middle point of the date, then they just generally ignored each other. So it seemed promising but overall was a very flat date. The only positive was that it was 3 hours long. Oh, but at the middle point I was forced to stress them by putting them in a single carrier together as punishment for the scuffle that looked like it was brewing to be a full on fight. 

I'm not sure where I'm at with this bond. They took some promising steps but have also had quite a few setbacks. What's more, I 'm just not sure how they will react in shared territory if things aren't going standardly friendly in neutral. Oh well, tomorrow another day to do it all again.

*****


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## Troller

*Date XL

*Well I'm completely discouraged. I think I'm done bonding. 3 hours together and they spent it avoiding each other. The scuffled at one point, and Xena groomed him at one point so that was a wash. Things we're tense so I decided to put them in the tub to stress them. There Xena again groomed Conan so I thought it was working but then they decided to rumble pretty hard. Add to this I feel an old scab near Xena's eye, a small one but there. Conan has scratches all over his back and fur missing. I mean I just don't see the point in pushing them and they keep getting hurt. It truly stuns me that they can be together for hours no problem, groom each other, but then turn around and fight anyways. I guess I'm living with two separate rabbits which isn't a problem, just a shame. 

***


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## Troller

*Date XLI*

On suggestion I decided to use an actual stresser for my rabbits and put them in a single carrier and went for a drive. It was as I feared, while there was less aggression from both it was still there and the car ride didn't really faze them too bad. I'd call it an inconveniance. Though maybe it wasn't all bad, no fighting occured over the course of 3 hours, just a lot of jostling. 

Maybe it's my mindset. I've been having a really rough week so I'm not as jolly. My wife tells me when she came in today the rabbits we're binkying in tandem in their cages and grooming each other between bars...ughh. I'm just fried for now.

****


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## kirbyultra

Aw, that's really tough. I know my buns read the stress off of me and they get pretty tense and wary as well. Lots of pets are very aware of their people's feelings. If you throw in the towel on bonding it would be kind a shame, but you are not making the decision lightly. The buns hurting each other is a painful experience for them and you. Whatever you decide to do, I wish you best of luck!


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## Troller

For lack of creative thinking I put the buns together again today because I had to clean their cages and no longer liked the idea of keeping them in their carriers like I used to. So it had all the hallmarks of a date though I'm loath to call it that. 

Whats to say. It started with grooming and ended with a lot of scuffles and a fight. I was almost done cleaning when the worst of it was going on so I decided to rely on my usual stress technique which is to put them together in a very confined space, a single carrier and shake it from time to time. They decided to surprise me and fight in said carrier, amazing because they barely have room in there to turn around much less tussle. So now two of my usual stressing methods have failed (the bathtub being the other) and I'm leery to try another car ride because that didn't seem to stress them all that much. I don't need an immunity built up to that too.

The only good point was that when I let them out of the carrier they quietly relaxed a distance apart from each other. I let it go for 10min to finish tidying up and then felt this was a positive enough ending to put them away.

I think it's time to take a break from bonding, if for anything to give them a chance to recover fur and heal up some minor scratches. I'll still try to let them out together when I clean but if that also continues to he a mess then I'll go back to my old methods of cleaning.

In two weeks I have some time and was thinking to try what I see a lot of people in the UK do and just stick them together in a neutral spot until they bond or they can't. I just wonder can you go from slow bonding and then change tactics to fast bonding. Then again I might wuss out, I'm musing is all.


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## kirbyultra

:bunnyhug:


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## Troller

*Date XLII*

Not sure on what's my strategy or if I'm even continuing bonding hut since today was clean up day and its been a few days since the buns have been together I put them in the neutral territory while I cleaned the enclosures. At first the buns took turns grooming each other. Then after a while they just relaxed away from each other. Finally towards the end they decide to get aggressive and lunge and nip at one another.

The smart move would have been to put them back in their enclosures after I finished cleaning but I thought they were getting along so well why not leave them. Another smart move would have been relaxing them ones tensions started to rise then put them back on a happy note. Unfortunately I did nothing bright. Oh well. Went three hours long and half good half not so good. 

*****


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## Chrisdoc

what a shame, it´s difficult to know what to do. 

I set up my terrace so they could go out and as I´d had trouble with two of the boys, I put them out there and they got on fine and ended up grooming each other a few times. They´ve had ups and downs since their fall out at Christmas and it´s been difficult as I had to let them out separately. Anyway, this week, I let them all out together all week and they lunge a bit but no serious scuffles and today it went much better than I expected. So, you know yours, do what you think may work for them. I really do hope, they get over this and just get on. I thought mine wouldn´t again but they have so there is hope.


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## Troller

Well I've just been letting them relax, daily cage switching but no dates. I figure let them heal up a bit and recover some fur and next week I'm going to try the UK method of bonding where I put them together in a totally new and neutral territory until they bond or it looks impossible. Granted I only got at most 60 hours to try this so if it looks bad I'll of course stop. We'll see.


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## Azerane

I hope you've got someone to run shifts with you, because I know I couldn't stay awake for 60 hours  I really hope it goes well though. I should think that that amount of time will let you know for sure whether they are willing to get along or not.


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## flemish giant

I think if youre a light sleeper you may could just sleep in the neutral territory. rabbits are pretty loud when they fight.


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## Troller

I am a light sleeper and intend to sleep on the couch near them or an air mattress is necessary. But first I have to figure out what I can use as temporary flooring for the neutral area I need to set up.


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## holtzchick

Just caught up with your blog! I am glad you are still bonding your two and it is hard but keep at it!


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## Troller

Today I made a bone headed mistake. While feeding the rabbits and switching their run times I let Xena out and forgot to put the locks on Conan's cage and went promptly to sleep. I heard wrestling but I swear it sounded like my neighbors and not next room. 

I managed to shake my stupor and realize what might be going on but luckily my wife who was moments from hoping into the shower also heard the commotion and separated them. A great personal feat for her because she's kind of scared of getting in the mix and...well in her birthday suit all the more intimidating to try.

I checks both rabbits and while Conan had a lot of fur pulled they physically looked well. However, Conan seemed shell shocked the rest of the day. He didn't want to go to his cage, he kept smearing poop on things and ate less then usual. At the end of the day though things were better, his poops all right and he was eating normal.

This weekend I'm putting them in a new neutral place to try to bond them. I plan to leave them there through the weekend with me right there observing. If things don't go well in the meantime I'll be building a permanent cage to house both of them separately. I'm not saying I'm giving up bonding them forever, just for now.


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## jemm

Love the photos, what great pair of buns


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## Troller

It's amazing how much we'll put out for these lil critters. Today I lost sleep, spent money and dedicated time to creating a temporary pen and neutral territory all for the chance to bond my buns. 

The plan is to put Conan and Xena in the new 8 by 4 pen and wait them out the weekend. I plan to sleep next to them and hope for the very best while prepare for the intensely disappointing and dread the terrible worst. I'm ready to put a barrier in said pen if they fight way too hard. They'll have to stay in this pen while I work on making and cleaning the permanent residence with an optional divider. If they play well then their new combined home will he ready. Play badly and well their 7 by 4 two floor condo becomes their 4 by 3 two floor dwelling. The smaller digs will suck for them but they generally get 12 hours out in the pet room and 5 of those hours throughout the apartment. 

First snag. The Iris pens while nice and easy to clean and assemble, are very floppy assembling straight lined. This sucks because I'm very obsessive about measurements and on paper the set up fit to a T. Now I got a wobbly pen that stands up straight only when you set it up zig zagging, which further blows because it goes over the temp flooring I set up and onto the carpet. I got all night to figure that lil issue out so hopefully a better solution comes to me. 

Well I got some work ahead of me so wish us luck. I'll probably be updating this thing since I'll he indoors the whole time.


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## Troller

So it has begun. Of course a mistake I may be making is doing it right after work which also means I haven't slept in over 24 hours. So it started out fun with them exploring the new space. After about 5 minutes of doing that they decided to scuffle. Seems Conan's new thing is to poop stink when they fight and boy did it smell. So it was hot and heavy with me separating them when the worst of it was going down and I was so very close to just shutting the whole thing down but then they took opposite ends of the pen and have been relaxing for some time.

A second mistake might have been putting to many new things in with them, but I was truly hoping that they would be distracted by it. So far that also seems to be going dismal but it only just started. Well let's see, got all day and night to see what happens. If it goes ugly I'll just make a partition in the pens while tomorrow I start the rebuilding of the cage in the pet room.


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## Apebull

Good Luck


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## PaGal

I am hoping for the best for you. I know you will do what is best for the two of them and if that means having them live separately then I know you will make the best of it. I do really, really hope this works out well and that everyone can live together as one big happy family.

It's a shame the pen is not stable. I have the same issue with the Xpen I have as a cage for the two buns. It helped adding the coroplast and hubby used a thick piece of copper connected across the one end of the top of the cage to make it a little more sturdy. Only drawback is I tend to clothesline myself on it at least once every time I clean the cage.


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## Troller

Well twelve hours into it and so far not too bad. Two scuffles in the first two hours which had me almost call it, but then nearly ten hours of relative quiet. Just an occasional chasing off from one or the other, mostly Xena scaring off Conan. I wish I wasn't so sleepy otherwise I would have thought to take them out for a car ride first to stress them a bit before I actually began this but that's a missed opportunity now. Another snag I hit was when i took out my air mattress I discovered the stupid plug missing, so I've had to sleep on the floor. Yay...So now we're into new territory, going over the longest period before today. The real shame is not once have they groomed each other or sat too near each other which leaves me suspicious of how ell this is going.


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## Troller

UPDATE: Just as I posted this they got into a scuffle...sigh, so close.


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## Troller

Overnight was not a good night for us. They woke me every 30 min with their scuffles, mostly Conan running away. It really seems Conan is afraid of Xena now. I wonder if there ever will be grooming again. Conan looks ragged from fur pulling, and Xena got barbered a bit on the side of her nose. Just before I separate them for good I decided to take a car drive with them and see if that has any affect. Either way I got to build a cage for two, whether their separated or together in it so for their ease it would be best if they can at least get along in the neutral territory/temp pen otherwise I'll have to divide the pens making it for pretty cramped quarters for the time being. I'm exhausted from lack of sleep and have a ton of things to do before the day is out. 

So passes the second 12 hours and unlike the previous twelve this one sucked. I only hope we get another shift out of this.


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## Chrisdoc

I can see you´re not having an easy time with this. It is such a shame, I know that deep down these two love each other. I´m crossing everything I´ve got. As they say, things can only get better.


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## Troller

So two car rides a few hours apart and I got 12 hours all together of quite rabbits lounging. I wouldn't say things are cool between them, Conan still runs away at Xena's approach but at least there's been no scuffling or fur pulling. However, they just started getting a bit more active now so we'll see what the next 12 hours bring.


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## Troller

So its done. Sixty hours through and not much to show for it. My house is a mess from creating a new neutral area. The pet room is a clean but untidy place because i had little chance to put away the building materials. The cage is sound but on hindsight I realize that the set up will he a bit tricky for future clean ups (the design works better for two bonded rabbits and not two caged mates) and I raced the clock to build dividers that don't offer enough of a separation but I had no time for more then one NIC panel. In another thread I questioned if i should just let them be together since I sanitized the whole room and area but i just wasn't sure. I could have gambled since they didn't fight in over 50 hours together but neither did they cuddle so I just went the safer route.

I'm a little bummed out. I lost a lot of sleep, made a proper mess and have no substantial answer to these two and their bonding. I mean if they flat out fought I'd have been ok with that and settled on two separate rabbits. If they bonded I would have of course been thrilled. Instead I got them hanging around each other, Conan running away for Xena most of the time or cautiously visiting her. They've been at this for months and hours at a day! They even groomed each other in the past. But this weekend, just meh...

Anyway I'm i'll be really busy this week and now will have to think on what will I be doing next.


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## kirbyultra

Wow, that's a lot of time. Sorry the buns couldn't be more encouraging. You're such a great bunny daddy though, giving it your all for them. It's not much and not what you were hoping to see but after all, they always tell me that a date that didn't go badly is considered a good date.


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## Troller

Came back this morning and just to be experimental let both rabbits out of their cage and out into the pet room. This is the first time that in shared territory they didn't fight! Now I'm not going to say they're friendly, Conan would run whenever Xena came by' but they used each others litter boxes, ate from each others food dish and drank from each others water bottle as well as loafed in one cage together. So in other words they co-existed. I'm guardedly estatic. Maybe the few days together actually had a positive affect. Poor Conan though, I feel be's getting bullied here. Hope things lighten up.


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## PaGal

I was so hoping that they would show clear signs of being bonded for you. It is a shame that they have not. Maybe because they have such laid back personalities it takes longer for them to decide whether they have a hate or love relationship.


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## Troller

I'm not sure I should call them dates anymore but i put them in the bonding pen for two hours tonight. All was quiet, a little boring in fact. There was a few minutes where Conan and Xena rested heads together but then something spooked Conan and he ran. My wife has off so I told her if she was feeling brave to open up their cages and let them roam the pet room. In a way its her first bunny date solo so I hope to hear good things.

More and more I'm thinking my marathon weekend had a positive aftect on them. Though I am just the slightest bit worried all i did was super stress them so their not being their normal selves. But thats the pessimist view, like you mention PAGal it could be just them being so laid back it's hard to tell. Friday I think I'll do another day/night date, this one in the pet room with possible cage dividers put down.


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## Troller

Well another non date, 4 hours in the bond pen and 30min in the shared pet room. No fighting, but still Xena chasing off Conan of Conan running at Xena's slightest approach. I'd be dismayed but in truth I've put them in some intense situations and there's been no fighting at all so I take that as a good sign. I'm not sure how to proceed from now on but I guess I'll just wing it. Can rabbits bond without showing aftection, or is coexistence like a bond? Things for me to ponder.


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## Troller

Today 30 min in the shared and cage open area, 5 hours in the bond pen, and one 20 min drive. I was pleased to see Xena grooming Conan, and today Conan didn't run away from her as much. But best of all we've had consecutive days (4 days) of multiple hours together and no scuffling. I feel that something is finally giving I just got to keep at it. Sadly though both my buns have plenty of little nicks and scratches to show for it and my wife questions if it isn't a little abusive. Hell I question.


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## Troller

I do give them plenty of treats for their benifit and to assuage my guilt.


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## Troller

Today, or rather this weekend is a big one for me. I make what I feel is the last push in this bonding. Both rabbits have spent multiple hours, nearly days, with no fighting. They may not be cuddly but I can trust they can coexist without me physically being around and sleeping within earshot. 

I started it with a drive. Last two times I did this you could tell Xena was spooked but as usual Conan was calm. So much in fact, and it may just be wishful thinking on my part, but I saw Conan grooming her and it seemed protecting her in the carrier. I truly don't think I'm imagining it, but it is just a sense I got.

When I got back I put them in the cage (that i freshly sanitized again) with no divider and now I wait. Though its a bit cruel, I plan to keep them in the cage together with no out time until Sunday. Then I'll let them out into the pet room, and a day or two later let them run the apartment and see what's what.


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## Azerane

It sounds like it was a bit of a frustrating experience, because as you said it wasn't anything really solid to go on. Wishing you all the best whatever you decide to do next.


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## Troller

Hello folks. I believe i have *arty:Bonded Rabbits!*:woohoo

Now I shouldn't jinx it, but they spent all weekend scuffle free in their cage and in the pet room. This after nearly two weeks being together almost non stop in neutral territory. Okay, there was one instance of a small amount of fur being pulled but that was either Friday or Saturday and might have been Xena's patented get out of my way nip. Last night my wife told me there was a grooming war going on, with Xena chasing Conan to groom him, Conan grooming Xena and both grooming each other for long periods of time. Now they don't seem like the cuddliest of bunnies but that may grow with time, or even if they're never super affectionate as long as they don't mind each others company and can live together freely. Tomorrow I may let them out into the living room and see how it goes but for now I just want to bask in the enjoyment of two rabbits chilling together in the same space.

Thank you all for your advice, your interest and most of all your positive thoughts that kept me going when I was almost ready to give up.


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## PaGal

What a wonderful picture! I can only imagine how happy you are. 

With the two unaltered females I took in, they are bonded. I'm positive that the owner just put them together as young buns in the same cage and that's how it has been. I'm sure they were together with other buns at the feed store where he bought them. They do groom each other occasionally and will lay next to each other but they spend most of their time apart and although they don't scuffle now and then one will run from the other. When they are out of their cage they tend to do their own thing. I guess what I am trying to say is that although Zena and Conan are not all lovey dovey that does not mean they are not bonded. Again, the calm personalities may also play a part. Other bonded buns may have a closer appearing relationship because they feel the need for support due to fears whereas flemmies do not seem to fear much.


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## Chrisdoc

OMG, I don´t believe it...I was so happy to see this. What a fantastic pic of the two of them. I am just so pleased it´s finally happened and so glad you didn´t throw in the towel. We were all convinced and they do say that bonding isn´t easy. 

Hope we get updates on their new life together and lots more pics, I just love these two bunnies. 

:woohoo:woohoo:woohoo:energizerbunny::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo:


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## Troller

Hey folks. I let the rabbits out into the full territory and it entertained me that it took forever for them to actually come out of the pet room. Well they finally did, and it looked like they enjoyed stepping out and moving around. I was worried that they would start territorial fighting but they either hovered around each other or wandered around separately so it was cool.

It's so relieving giving my buns out time at the same time. It means they get the extra exercise with little limits and I dont get the headaches of juggling different experiences for them. Plus it was very cute seeing them out and about together in areas where I would ever only see one at a time. Xena ran around doing Bunny 250 (she's athletic but as a flemish takes more breaks) and binkying. Conan just liked being hack in his tube. So all was enjoyable.

Oh, and i tried nectarines with them and they both liked it, so now I got a new treat to give them every once in a while. Well I guess I can say one more bonding hurdle is over with so either these guys are well and good or they are doing a terrific job of fooling me


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## Troller

Another odd thing I've been noticing is just how much time bonding took from me these months. I'm generally busy here and there but I always made time for the rabbits individual needs, the bonding date set up work and then the date itself, which took anchunk of time. Now it seems I'm done and the last few days I've been kind of besides myself with some spare time, wondering what I should do.  What a luxury problem. I'll get back to my hobbies I'm sure, it's just I never realized just how much time and energy I dedicated to the whole process until I was near done. Even now I'm a bit antsy preparing myself if things should go bad.


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## Chrisdoc

Michael, I know you´ll now be able to enjoy more time for yourself. I can tell you the pleasure of being able to let the buns out together makes up for everything and being able to relax when they are out is even better. When my two finally solved their issues, it is now great that I´m not stressing just in case any scuffles break out. Enjoy your new free time, you certainly do deserve it.


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## Azerane

Wow, that is amazing. It seems that just needed that extended time together to try and sort out their problems and just "have at it" so to speak. A big congratulations to you, you've worked very hard for bonded bunnies and I'm so glad that it has worked out. I hope it continues to go well


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## Troller

I wish I was on hand or had a camera, but my wife reports that they groomed each other at the same time, lazed together and binky'd all over the place so with the stress of bonding over their really cheered I think. Its a wonder, these really arent the same two I had a month ago.


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## qtipthebun

Omg!! I'm so happy to hear you've got bonded buns!!! Now we need more pictures. And maybe a video. I think they need a facebook page, personally...


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## Troller

Seems I was quite mistaken. They are getting cuddlier to each other by the day. Little funny things occurring: Turned on the vacuum and Conan jets to the second floor of the bunny condo, Xena promptly joins him up there (though not running in fear like he did) and grooms him to in my opinion calm him down (of course I might be projecting here). Yesterday I go to pick Conan up and Xena starts thumping more then she ever has before, in a circle around me and stops (maybe not the second but pretty close to) once I put him down. And generally they are either lying next to or going around grooming each other. I must say, bonded rabbits are fun, now I know what everyone was raving about


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## qtipthebun

omg the cuddles. So many cuddles. omg...*faints from the giant cute*


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## kirbyultra

Absolutely amazing!!! There's nothing more heart warming than bonded rabbits being all lovey dovey. Your hard work these very stressful months must feel greatly rewarding now! Many congrats to you. Your buns look so happy. I am so happy for all of you!


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## Chrisdoc

What great photos, I knew they would be adorable together and now they can´t get enough of each other. I know that you must be absolutely delighted and I never tire of seeing mine cuddling and grooming and just hanging out together. It was a long process but wasn´t the result well worth waiting for. We need some video of them now. I LURV IT :bunnyheart


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## Troller

Yes the result was quite worth it. Best of all I have a video now to show it comes it was demanded. 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OISj-gR3G20[/ame]

And some more pics for the hell of it. Oh and I completely forgot, today is my buuny keeper anniversary. Today last year Conan came into my life and changed it for the far better! It's been a smashing year!


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## flemish giant

They are so cute! I love Flemish giants, hands down one of the best rabbits around behavior and looks wise. How big/old are your two? I think I might just have to bond Harper with my two it'll be a cute trio.

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## flemish giant

Oh and I love the fawn! If I ever get another Flemish fawn will definently be the color I want. Its just so pretty with the orange on top and white on bottom.

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## Troller

Conan is 1 year 4 months, Xena is 11 months. I can't tell you how long they are but Xena definitly stretches out longer, and both are 14lb 1oz (that's a human scale though so it might be inaccurate).


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## Chrisdoc

Michael you should be so proud, they look so good together, I just love seeing them grooming. I think our buns have changed us all, the learning curve with them is sometimes so difficult but the end results for all is just so rewarding and seeing these two like that now must make you nearly forget all the trouble you had along the way. It seems hard to believe how much it did take when you read back through the blog. 

Hope to see more videos of these two together, they are just such a beautiful couple.


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## Azerane

Oh my gosh, I'm loving all those pics and the video is adorable too. I can't believe how snuggly they are! It's so fantastic.


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## flemish giant

Troller said:


> Conan is 1 year 4 months, Xena is 11 months. I can't tell you how long they are but Xena definitly stretches out longer, and both are 14lb 1oz (that's a human scale though so it might be inaccurate).



Dang if yours are 14lbs at 11 months+ I have a monster on my hands.

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## holtzchick

Congrats on Conan and Xena! They are gorgeous together! Your patience is just beyond me, it's incredible that you've managed to bond your two but as everyone says, they look happier now more than ever!


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## Troller

Thanks again everyone. I really do feel like I'm doing a victory lap over here. You know without the helpful people here, this website and other places and especially the ease of online, bonding rabbits would be a difficult practice for just anyone to do. So thank goodness for these resoruces. 5-6 months was intense but yes worth it now. Hopefully they keep that way.

So for the first time I decided to sleep on the couch in the living room so that the pet room door can be open and the rabbits could run around. It was a fun mistake. Conan and Xena ran around, jumped on top of me a few times, Xena would nip me and they just were just the cutest nuisances. I eventually (after 2 hours) gave up, wrangled them back in the room and went to sleep in my bed.


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## Chrisdoc

The joys of bonded rabbits. That is quite funny cos the other night I fell asleep on the sofa and woke up with two rabbits jumping all over me and grooming me. Adorable but not ideal for napping lol.


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## Troller

Now they're taking my couch spot...


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## flemish giant

Haha peeta does that he won't even let people sit on his couch he jumps right on top of them. Good luck getting your couch back.

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## Bonsai

Congrats on bonding them! They look so cute together, loving the combo.  I've stalked your thread for a while and silently lurked and I know how hard you've worked to get them here. I can tell they're happy and I know you and your wife are happy too! You had to climb many mountains to get here and I believe you may need a medal for "Most Patient Bunny Owner" lol! Congrats again and I can't wait to see more adorable-ness from these two. &#9829;


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## Chrisdoc

Haha, you´ll have a job claiming your spot back now. 

I just love seeing them together, they´re almost conspiring now, you will definitely have to watch out.


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## Troller

Now I got the post bonding little issues to figure out. How to keep Xena from hogging all the fresh greens, or at least get Conan to be interested in them enough to eat them when I squirrel away some for him. Luckily for me them being the same size makes pellet distribution kind of easy.


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## qtipthebun

Say goodbye to your couch. Qtip is currently stretched out asleep on my--err, her couch. And she's only a minirex and is taking up a ridiculous amount of space. Wait until they start sleeping in the bed.


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## Troller

So its been a few quiet and wonderful days, and then of course my wild child struck. In the pet room there is a couch, on we're not that commited to but its anplace to sit and admire our wee ones. Well apparently Xena has burrowed a hole into its side and enjoys her little burrow...sigh. I noticed the damage yesterday, put a panel in front of it but she still managed to bypass it and get into her hole. 

After nuch coaxing with treats I got her out but now I got a dilemna. My x pen panel is too short for one side and too long for two panels to be flush against the couch. NiC panels would be much the same as well. So now I got to wrack my head on a solution. Hell i'd let them have it, but I can't have them pee/poop and tear at the carpet but more importantly to have some safe spot against me


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## JBun

Our critters do find a way to get into trouble just when we think things are going so well


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## PaGal

I can't help it but find that just so funny. Could you post a pic. maybe we can help you come up with a solution.


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## Troller

Ill try to post a pic tomorrow while I'm cleaning. For now I tied the X Pen panel flush against the side of the couch using cord protector tube tied to the panel and the couch leg. If they're determined enough they could muscle the panel open but Xena is taking the other approach by chewing at the tube. No biggie, its a temporary measure until I figure something better out.


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## Troller

So my makeshift barrier to the inner recesses of the couch seemed to be working, only the fool I am I used the panel that actually had a door so Xena managed to open the door and almost got in but my wife spotted her and put a stop to it. Does Xena act contrite however, oh no she snorts and thumps in protest and chooses to sulk afterwards. Hilarious.

Bun are still bonded, though it looks like they have tiffs. Caught Xena lunging at Conan yerterday which took me by suprise but later sue was grooming him and they were lying together. She also chased him my wife reports and she says he took it very odd, like he himself was surprised. So I'm just chalking it up as a happy couple with occasional hiccups.

Here's the pics of my makeshift barrier by the by.


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## Troller

The hole


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## Troller

And the tie


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## PaGal

That is a tough one to figure out. Do they have somewhere in the room they can hide? Maybe a concrete form tunnel would help to distract her from the couch.

Do you have a piece of furniture or some such that you could place next to the couch that would block her from getting to it? Something heavy enough they could not push it away?

I have a wooden box that I placed over a section of carpet against the wall that Thumper would try digging and chewing.


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## Troller

The cage is in the room, plus there is at least two hidey places for the rabbits to be in if they should so choose. The issue really is that the buns will do what they're not supposed to and go where they're not supposed to because its the only things they're not allowed to do, if that makes sense. I can't block of the area either because the door is right there and the other side of the couch has a bookshelf blocking it so they won't dig there. So i'm stymied at the moment.

On another front, Xena truly is a lovable wild child. My wife adores her, but Xena has taken to chewing on her purses (my wife often leaves them on a chair with the strap dangling. Sometimes I'm able to catch it and move it but most times no), chewing on sole of her shoes, chewing on her pants and chewing on her toes. So much in fact Xena was doing it while she was wearing some of these articles and when my wife shoo'd her away she just binky'd all around her and tried again. It's funny how my wife loves her little trouble maker but gripes at me like I'm the cause. Oh well... 


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## qtipthebun

Any chance some of the bitter apple spray would work? Qtip loves it, but she's a weirdo. My dad uses hot sauce to deter his bun from chewing shoes.


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## Troller

I used soap on Conan for the curtains, it did seem to work but I haven't tried anything against Xena yet. I should start. 

Here's my two trying to look all innocent. 



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## PaGal

If you are looking for a way to keep that there blocking the couch and want a better way to attach it then the cord protector, you could either buy some longer zip ties (they do sell them) or connect more than one zip tie together and go around the panel and the wood frame of the couch that is showing in the second pic. Or at least it looks possible to me from the pic.

Or you could place a piece of wood inside the hole in the couch to block access depending on what the couch is like underneath.

You could try a repellant of some sort. I know with Thumper nothing worked. He would still chew and I tried everything from bitter spray, to bar soap to extra hot sauce. he takes after his momma and likes spicy.


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## Chrisdoc

Have you thought of putting some plants in front of the gap you want to cover. I´m using them outside as it stops them chewing the wooden gate. I´ve bought basil and rosemary and they are now eating the plants instead of the gate. They do love eating the herbs directly from the plants and once they´ve eaten all the leaves, they do regrow and they can eat them again. 

By the way, love the pics of the two lovebirds :love:


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## Troller

Plant won't work since there is no space. I tried to do a zip tie but it won't reach the couch leg and the only place I can do it is if I punch a whole in the fabric, something I can do but I'd just worry that they'd eventually chew the fabric and tear off the zip tie. 

Now an odd thing came up yesterday. Here is a video the day before just hanging out having laying about eating. Well both of them were eating until Conan decided to just sit there and watch the video being taken.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAsRjsgpWn4&feature=youtu.be

Yesterday I let them out the pet room where it looks like everything was normal. They come out, eat greens, hang out a bit and then get into a fight where they pull fur. They separated themselves eventually, or at my call, and have been standard bond since but I now have to watch out for flare ups. Oh well.


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## Troller

I had a truly gratifying pet moment today, but first let me set it up a little. My buns love my wife more, that's just the way it is and i accept that. They've been more timid around me ever since the bonding, and recently even more so because I had to do a few checks on them. I get it, I might be the guy who gives them food and treats but I'm also the guy who takes away their hard built hidey hole in the couch, rudely lifts them up to check on their health and chases them off of fun things or their house when its time to clean. I'm the bad guy while my wife is nothing but sunshine, pleasant talking, treat giving, pet happy heroine princess...

But today I come home and as I go to my bedroom Conan comes out to me. At first I think its because he wants to sneak into the no-bunny zone. I go to pet him, not intending to shoo him away just yet but i realize he's accepting my rubs. He lets me do it for a few moments, turns away to hop off and binkies away! Was this truly just a hi there you big lug glad to see you moment now back to my pellets moment i just had...I don't know but it really made my end of the day. 


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## Chrisdoc

I think he was really pleased to see and just wanted to make you feel good. I think they are quite timid creatures and mine particularly are very skittish, I think that´s a trait of the smaller buns but I think any sign of affection given from them makes me feel really good. Mine sometimes jump on the sofa when I´m working on the laptop or watching TV and just jump on me and then go. It´s not that much but always me feel so much better that they trust me enough to do that. 

I did laugh at Conan in the video, they are a lovely couple.


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## Troller

So I've gone through four iterations of barriers to protect my pet room couch from these little destroyers, and all four have failed. It's amazing to me that they went from ignoring the couch for months to full on attacking it. Anyways I've finally folded and wrapped a NIC panel all along it. It's terribly hideous and my wife hates it but so far so good. Next step will be to try a microfiber cover (they fail trying to chew through it in the living room) and see what happens. 


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## Azerane

Rabbits are stubborn creatures aren't they? When they suddenly decide they want something, they will not be deterred!

Best of luck with the new barrier!


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## Chrisdoc

What we have to do to protect our things from those little teeth or, in your case, bigger teeth. I´ve been thinking about your buns the last few days as they´re showing Conan the Barbarian on the TV. Do you know every time they advertise it, I see Conan the Bunbarian and I laugh every time, I´m obviously spending too much time on RO lol.


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## Troller

So my wife relayed yet another wonderful feel good story about how when she comes home the rabbits run and binky around her, nipping at her ankles out of love and generally welcoming her home...ugghh, I'd be lucky if they came up to me out of their cage to get the damned morning treat I try to give them. So unfair. 

Anyways here's a video and an artistic pic my wife took of the buns. Pardon the Sons of Anarchy audio running in the background. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcxSl1U2rAI&feature=youtu.be


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## qtipthebun

Awww! The SOA in the background just makes it better!!
They're such precious fluffybutts!!


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## Chrisdoc

They are just so great together, I can´t believe it took them so long to realise that. 

I was showing the video to my mom who arrived last night and she was amazed with Xena´s ears and with your wife´s purple nails lol.


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## PaGal

I enjoyed the video. I enjoy seeing everyones buns (ha!) but the big ones hold a special place in my heart and I cannot get enough.

It sounds to me like Conan was showing his love for you when he approached you at your bedroom door. If it was just about getting into a no bun zone I'm sure him being a rabbit he would have tried, tried, tried. Since he didn't show all out bunny determination, I say it was about showing love.


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## Troller

Well its been a while. I've been in staycation so haven't been online as much. Conan & Xena are a couple, with love and arguments. Just today I caught Xena chasing Conan and thought they may be fighting, which they do a little, but a minute later and they're just lying together all pleasant so I just take it to mean they argue once in a while.

I have pics and videos to put up but since Im on my phone I'll have to do it later. I finally closed up the section of the couch where they chewed a hole in so I thought it was done but then Xena started to chew into the couch from the middle seat. No way to bar that without losing the ability to sit on the couch so in the end she outsmarted us. We had a bit of a victory though as she seems to have finally gotten it out of her system and our couch has been safe but damaged since. We're talking about just throwing out the couch and maybe getting a metal framed day bed or something. 

Other then that their both healthy, weighing in at 14lb 6oz. Not sure if my scale is correct since every month they both weigh exactly the same but its what I got. Oh forgot to mention Xena celebrated her 1st birthday on the 9th so now both my buns are a year old. I'm just a very happy bunny keeper right now despite how they vex me so 


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## Chrisdoc

Great to see an update, happy belated birthday to Xena. Good to see they´re getting on so well and yes, I´m sure they have the odd tiff but soon get over it and are even more lovey dovey. Can´t wait to see pics, I love this couple.


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## PaGal

Happy belated Bunday to Xena!

It is amazing how they can frustrate us but in the end all we can think of is the joy they bring. I am glad Xena has stopped eating your couch. Hoping you knocked on some wood though. Ha!


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## Apebull

Happy bunday Xena.

I totally understand about the couch. Ours are leather and Twigs loves to eat leather. What is it with buns and couches (((sigh)))


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## kirbyultra

Happy birthday Xena! So happy to hear things are well.


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## Troller

So today I was chilling under the table with my buns. They were a foot away from me grooming each other. I decided enough of them being so distant so nuzzled my head next to them. I did it slowly so that they wouldn't hop away. I was rewarded with some grooming on my bald noggin (first time ever) so I rewarded them in turn with their favorite treat a banana chip. Happy days...

It almost might make up for the destruction they have wrought on my poor couch. 


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## JBun

What is one couch compared to the happiness of your 'little' buns  Oh the sacrifices we make for our rabbits. Though I don't understand why they can't just reserve their destruction for the things we want and allow them to destroy :?

Congratulations on being included in the grooming circle! I love being licked by those cute little tongues. Nothing better than knowing they love and accept you


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## Chrisdoc

I know how you feel and I must admit it´s such a good feeling when they groom you. I was lying on the floor the other night and Snowy came up to lick me on the face and Houdini was cleaning my pyjamas. Glad that you´re now officially accepted and groomed.


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## Troller

Well here are some vids of my menagerie. First up is my cockatiel who as usual wanted to shower with me. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4dL7xziwhI&feature=youtu.be

And now Xena destroying our couch...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mqrc7VeSB30&feature=youtu.be


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## Chrisdoc

Great videos. I did laugh at the cockatiel, imagined him singing along while cleaning himself. I´m always amazed how big Xena is when I see videos of her, I forget that mine are so small in comparison so I can imagine the havoc she wreaks with the sofa.


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## Azerane

Just love those big bunnies  Great videos of both your cockatiel and Xena, pity the poor couch.


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## Troller

So I had a bad weekend and a bad start to my week with lack of sleep. I get home and have to feed the menagerie but of course I'm tired and the morning treat of papaya tablets gets spilled on the floor. Man what a frenzy! They were like little land sharks all over me and the floor trying to get to the tasty treats. I think I managed to keep them to maybe 4 or 5 tablets and saved the rest but it certainly was a massacre on those things. It was funny, but I really got to be more careful when I'm tired. Bad things happen to me when I'm tired, like leaving cages open for unbonded bunnies and now this. Oh well, the look fine tonight so I'll keep an eye but I think it's all good.


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## kirbyultra

Lol for what its the worth, the bunnies think it was a great day!

Sent from my mobile phone


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## Chrisdoc

Haha, I´m sure they weren't complaining, they wouldn´t mind you being tired more often :spintongue


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## Azerane

Bless their little hearts! At least they're not going to get a fur blockage


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## Troller

So again stupidly in my exhaustion I left the lid off the papaya tablets. Guess what happened...ugh. 

I have this horrible dream where Conan is hurt and for some reason I cant think straight and call the vet because I cant find her number or where to go. My wife apparently takes him but doesnt take Xena, meaning that the bond will brake...ugh

So I wake up cranky and my wife tells me Xena had this epic dead flop where she petted her for minutes (has a video) and no movement. Until the wife lifts her and it turns out Dena really was flopping...ugh

So after seeing the video I decide to see my Xena and can't find her anywhere. Realize that the pet couch thats nearly covered in NIC grids around the sides and under the cushions, has a new hole from a vector I just figured Xena couldnt reach and of course shes in it. Takes me a while of heavy lifting and shaking to get her out and now see the full damage done to this couch. Multiple large holes, cushions bleeding out stuffing and couch stuffing strewn about . This couch is unsalvageable and probably dangerous at this point. Problem is I live in an apartment so I can't just throw it out, there's a process and of course my landlord doesnt know I have rabbits so I got to explain it...ugh


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## PaGal

Maybe it's time you just give them all of the papaya and be done with it. 

I'm sorry that having buns has been a tad difficult lately but you know it will get better. At least until the next time.

I was assuming the couch is yours. Which although bad wouldn't be as bad as if it was a couch that came with a furnished apartment.


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## Troller

Oh the couch is mine, a hand me down from my mother in law. My wife likes the couch. My mother in law believes buns to be destructive and us too careless to take care of them properly. Well after this she'll believe she's right. Then theres the throwing out the couch which puts it on the curb. The holes are noticeable so the landlord might see that and wonder what the hell did that. I could just be paranoid, and in the end I doubt we'll be evicted for having rabbits but its just a small problem Id rather not deal with is all. 


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## Troller

My poor fish Haiku just passed. Odd, he's a betta fish and they don't live long, but this is the first pet in years thats died on me and I strangely feel emotional about it. Especially since I had this run on joke with my wife where she accuses me of trying to kill him because I occasionally forget to feed him and then when I feed him I tell her I do have it out for him and am trying to kill him with kindness...Rest in peace little guy.


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## kmaben

Ouch that is a bit rough. Duck tape the holes and pass it off as just that, a hand me down. Keeping a running joke about fishy didnt kill him. Fishes die and it could have been anything. I really love some of my fishes and will be sad when they go. They're creatures worth attaching to.

Xena in the mean time needs a time out! Crazy girl.


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## PaGal

I once kicked apart a very old dresser and put the pieces in the trash so that it would be taken. Have an ax by any chance? 

It looked like a nice couch so it's a shame Xena caused you all of these problems. 

I became attached to my betta and mourned when he passed. He suffered swim bladder issues from the trip home but managed to pull through. Also, I felt he needed a top for his tank as I was afraid he would jump out. My husband at the time argued that he wouldn't. A few days later while we were sitting right next to him he did. He was fine though. I guess old age got to him in the end.


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## Troller

Don't you hate it when you post a thing and the internet gremlins eat it up. Been kind of disheartened to post again since. 

It was an observation on how great it is that you can have to of the same breed of animal and they'll be different physically as well as personality. The personality thing is a given, but I guess I never thought about how the same breed could be different athletically. See Xena is more athletic; she hops smoothly, is able to jump higher, seems more nimble, quicker, and looks graceful doing if. Conan meanwhile is a cannon ball; rumbling, stumbling, sliding, getting stuck on things and generally just ungainly. Its hilarious.

Shame it had to come at his expense this observation, but me and the wife we laughing about it when she explained to me how Conan got stuck in a hole he leaped into to follow Xena. My wife had to push his butt up while she was cackling at how funny he looked trying to scramble up and failing. This lead us into a discussion on how I can always tell the difference of which rabbit is entering the room based on how their running across the floor sounds. These guys are a joy to observe even when their trying to wreck my **** house


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## PaGal

I could only imagine how much happiness would come with having two flemmies. I'm on a group for flemmies and a few were just talking yesterday about how being around them just puts you into a good mood.


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## Chrisdoc

How funny is that imagining your wife pushing Conan´s butt while falling about laughing. I suppose in some ways they are just like us hoomans, some are more nimble and active and others are just clumsy and a bit slower and not as agile. I love the idea that Xena is nipping around and zooming and darting while Conan tries to keep up with her, I bet they have loads of fun together.


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## Troller

Not much new going on. We did throw out the couch and eventually we'll put some kind of bunny proof furniture in there we're just waiting until after the holiday season. My buns are doing well, Ive noticed that they might have a sort of row once in a while but its barely fur pulling and mostly avoidance. My wife seems to think it happens when Xena is bored, and like a typical man Conan runs away rather then deal with her 

My wife decked out the cage with some christmas spirit. Its cute but personally I think its poop bait for the birds. 


Next month Im planning to take the buns on their first annual Vet visit. Obviously since their bonded they go together but do they go in the same carrier?


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## Chrisdoc

Love the festive cage and good to see that they´re still getting along like an old married couple. 

Yes, I´d take them in the same carrier, they should be fine and will appreciate the company on the ride. 

I´m trying to see one of my couches while it´s still in a state that someone would want to buy it. They do prefer the 3 seater which now has several holes in the back but the 2 seater is still OK, I hope I can rid of it sooooon.


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## Troller

I guess once you've bonded rabbits you kind of slow down on blogging about your buns. My two are happy little terrors; destroying furniture, dancing on top of my wife's head if she falls asleep on the couch, trying to get behind barriers that block of a christmas tree, and being the lovable scamps that they are. Of course they're a fiery tumultuous couple. At least once a month they get into a mystery fur pulling fight that we see no signs of other then the fur but afterwards they look fine. 




First time I caught them together in their cardboard box. All is well and fun. Next month I take them to their first annual check up together...now that should be interesting.


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## PaGal

They look so attractive lying there next to each other.

I have noticed with my two bonded girls that now and then they apparently get into a fur pulling scuffle as well. never see any wounds though so it must be normal just like any couple together for long will have an argument now and then.


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## JBun

PaGal said:


> They look so attractive lying there next to each other.
> 
> I have noticed with my two bonded girls that now and then they apparently get into a fur pulling scuffle as well. never see any wounds though so it must be normal* just like any couple together for long will have an argument now and then*.



Took the words right out of my mouth


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## Chrisdoc

I have so missed seeing pics of these two, they are just so gorgeous together. I find the same thing, life with them gets into a routine although they sometimes do the odd mad thing. However, please do post pics now and again, I just love this Mr & Mrs, I have a real soft spot for your big furry couple.


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## Troller

Yeah sorry, just the world outside the buns has gotten hectic and bad so I dont have the time to appreciate the good calming things like posting funny pics of these guys. I swear being a rabbit owner has been one of the bright points in my life. Love these lil stinkers even if they still show my wife more love.


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## Troller

The end of days has happened in our house. Apparently both our cockatiels have laid eggs and are very territorial. Its almost entertaining if it wasn't so sad to see each one taking turns booting out the other from the cage to sit on eggs. I wonder how the rabbits feel hearing all this territorial racket going on over their heads.


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## Chrisdoc

Haha the picture I have of your two birds doing this made me laugh out loud. I bet the bunnies are totally unfazed by all of this and getting on with their own things.


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## Troller

Its a terrible pic but the concept was cute. I was laying down with my legs kicked up when I see this


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## Troller

So our picky rabbit Conan doesn't like many treats and is a fussy eater, not like our Xena who we call a disposal unit. Grapes are on the list of things Conan isn't a fan of. So my wife is eating grapes one day on the couch, noting that Conan is nearby but thinking nothing of it. She eventually turns from her reading to discover our sneaky Conan eating the stem and the grapes. Luckily they were only a few, and we know the stems aren't great for them, but it's not like she went to feed it to him. She couldn't help though taking a video of the offender at work. 

[ame]http://youtu.be/clLUe71bbhs[/ame]


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## Chrisdoc

Naughty bunny, isn´t it just that forbidden fruit is always nicer especially when it´s someone elses :yes:


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## JBun

I agree, someone else's food always tastes better than your own. And apparently Conan agrees too


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## Troller

There' a trouble with finding your buns so damned cute. You give them a fatty treat like a nice slice of banana only to be told that they were given one earlier by your spouse. Oh well, they get away with it like bandits.


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## Troller

And here's a video of them enjoying the snow. I can't really take them out so I decided to bring some snow to them. It was sort lived excitement for them since they got bored so quick of it but I thought it was fun. 

[ame]http://youtu.be/tCrm9go3DCg[/ame]


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## Apebull

It looks like Xena was not happy about there not being a treat in there somewhere.


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## Troller

Nah, she was more unhappy that there was a block to further digging. I wish I could somehow give here something deep enough to dig in now that the couch is gone


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## Chrisdoc

She was definitely unhappy there was nothing under all that snow. Would be even better seeing them buried in the snow and just popping out. I so love these two


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## Troller

So I decided to give my rabbits the benefit of the doubt and make them a dig box. I took a deep box and shredded a huge amount of paper and set it out for them. Xena did dig at first but then they quickly turned it into a new potty box. Worse , unlike wood pellets this shredded paper was wispy, stuck to everything and made a complete mess of the room I had just cleaned. My wife had a real good laugh at my expense. Oh well, maybe they had a little fun.


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## Troller

Xena licked my face!!! My cheeks!!! She was on the 2nd floor of the cage, I petter her and went to kiss her and she did that!


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## Chrisdoc

Well done, aren´t bunny kisses just the best. Snowy is the only one of mine who does that. I trimmed his nails today and he thanked me by kissing all of my face. Must admit those yours must be a bit bigger looking at the size of Xena whose tongue must be 10 times the size of Snowy´s lol .


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## Troller

So besides my Conan possibly having a paw issue, there's been this strange phenomenon of late that both bunnies do. Apparently its taken a year but they finally hanging out on the 2nd floor of their cage: no issues on that, I made it sturdy enough for them but they have taken to pooping a lot up there. A LOT...and occasionally peeing. I wonder why all the sudden its happened. Now I guess I could put another litter box up there, and I'm sure I made the top sturdy enough but were still talking about a total of +30lb rabbits with nothing but pegboard, coroplast, dowels and zip ties holding it up. Add a litter box up there might strain it more then my comfort would allow. Plus the litter box couldn't be too big, but then if its too small they might slide it right off that floor and if I zip tie it, it might he too difficult to get out to clean. 

Man does a lot of thought go into cage design.


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## PaGal

What I have done with Thumpers litter box because of him liking to move it around is to drill four holes in total on one side of the litter box, two at each end. I then looped a zip tie through each set of two holes, so a total of 2 zip ties. I then use an inexpensive shower curtain hook on each zip tie and then hook it to the cage. It's a very cheap fix, works well and only takes a moment to unhook or hook.

It could be they are just marking the new territory and will stop over time. Now and then the girls will pee on the upper level of their cage but in my case it seems to coincide with a surge of hormones.

Maybe you could try using one of those aluminum pans for a litter box. The type they sell to use and then throw away. They are light, lighter than a litter box, come in many sizes and should last as a litter box for a while. They aren't expensive either.

Isn't it funny how you never seem to have things set up just right for a bun. As soon as you think you are they have to go and start doing something different to make you start thinking and planning again.


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## Troller

So very true. They keep you on your toes.


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## Azerane

That's great that they've finally realised there's a whole extra world up there on the second level  I think the peeing and pooping probably is just a territory thing, since it's new space to them. I would expect it to die down and hopefully stop given a little bit of time.


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## Troller

So today i dealt with a retaliatory pee attack from Xena. This always happens when I decide to let the rabbits stay in the room when I clear out their litterbox. The second Xena notices this she decides to show her displeasure by peeing freely in the cage. Sigh...and here I was trying to save them the distress of kicking them out the room so I can clean it. 

My wife just got the nutrabullet, so she's taken to making us all types of healthy smoothies. I'm not so much of a fan but i support her and drink the concoctions downs. Anyway Xena and Conan discovered her drinking this and the last few nights have tried to ambush her for some. As far as my wife thinks, it must be a sign its healthy cause they like it. I tell her they like it because there's fruits in there,'which is a lot of sugar for rabbits but they do look cute trying to take her straw and get their faces in her cup.


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## Aubrisita

Lol, that sounds funny! I can only imagine trying to fend off two rabbits while trying to drink your smoothie.


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## Azerane

Aubrisita said:


> Lol, that sounds funny! I can only imagine trying to fend off two rabbits while trying to drink your smoothie.



Not just two rabbits, but two Flemish Giant rabbits!! I can't even begin to fathom how you would fend them off.

That is pretty cute though


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## qtipthebun

I make smoothies too, often green ones (spinach!!) Best way to win bunny cuddles!


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## Aubrisita

Two Flemish Giants?! Wow! Lol.


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## Troller

Haven't been around much, family problems cropping up that keep me awfully busy, but whats worse keep me away from my little fuzzies...its a shame cause now my wife gets all the bunny time and they already liked her more then me. I'm still the mean one who kicks them out of their home to clean.


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## Chrisdoc

I was wondering how these two were, missed them. If it wasn´t for my Kindle Fire, I probably wouldn´t post as much as it makes things much easier. 

I am sure they love you to bits, after all if you didn´t clean up after them, they wouldn´t be able to mess everything up again lol. 

Hope to see some pics soon, they are such a handsome couple :thumbup


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## Troller

Been having this issue of late where the buns use the 2nd floor of their condo like a litter box. It could be because I didn't cut the coroplast flush so there's a bit of a gap between two pieces. Technically not an issue of safety because I got peg board and then NIC panel under that so the floor is secure, but the spot they pee in up there is directly over their litter box so I'm thinking the lazy rabbits just pee up there because they can smell the slight opening . I'd put a litter box up there but I feel as if there is enough weight already. I'm not worried about stability, just I already use enough litter boxes and one up there would be a tricky reach.


Anyway I decided to remove the ramps so as there is no 2nd floor access. I plan to fix up the upstairs eventually with a new sheet of coroplast so there will be no gap, plus I figure this will confine them a bit so they can go back to the litter box properly. I figured I have nothing to worry about, the opening to the 2nd floor is to high, narrow, and angled poorly for any buns to hop up there. Only I was wrong. Two hours into it and my wife texts me the pic of Conan, who she lovingly calls hoglet, up there pooping already...sigh. Its possible he used a nearby chair to get up there. Either way these clever little trouble makers always figure out a way to foil our plans.


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## Chrisdoc

I did laugh reading this. We do our best to outsmart them but they always find a way. I sometimes find Houdini looking and studying and I know that there´s something going on in that head of his. I see you will have to go to Plan B lol. Great pic of Conan, bet he was really pleased with himself, their way of putting a finger up at us !!?? You hoomins think you are smarter than we are but we´ll show you :spintongue


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## PaGal

Dang rabbits are so smart! I hope you can block the second floor off successfully so they can get their good litter habits back under control. 

I had the same problem with mine but (I think it's Shirley) it's done in the corner so it gets outside the cage. I used a piece of coroplast over the opening to the second floor and secured it with zip ties. Shirley now gets up their by jumping from outside of the cage. Laverne can't as she has tried twice but slides back out. When they are determined they find a way! Guess I need to block off the doorway on the second floor.


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## Troller

It gets better. My wife reports that while she was sleeping she heard a commotion in the room. While investigating she saw they were both up there (no chair nearby so it seems they can just get up there) and Xena had peed up there. Well they saw the door room door open so they both bolted out the room and into the living room. My wife was too tired to chase them out so was going to let them be and sleep in the living room couch when to her surprise she fell a wet spot. Smelling it she knew it was pee, and since Xena was there just a moment ago well we knew exactly what happened. Me, I didn't even need to see her actually do it to know, Xena pees whenever she's upset at us for ruining something. She's a retaliatory pee-er that one.

Sigh...Just in case though we have their first yearly check up scheduled next week to make sure the peeing isn't health related. I doubt it, she always does it when I'm upsetting her routine but I got to make sure. At least Conan, all he does is poop. Sadly I had to reinstall the ramps back because they have no way to safely get down, well also no way to safely get up either so I reinstalled them and will have to wait for a free weekend to fix up the condo.


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## Azerane

Even our best laid plans are not safe when it comes to bunnies, they're simply much more clever than we are it seems. It's lucky they're so cute


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## Troller

We decided to groom Conan today for his visit tomorrow to the Vet. You would swear we were torturing him the way he fought. Usually he's a grump about it but today he thrashed and anything in front of his mouth was a target for his aggression. If he clamped on to anything he shook it about violently. Drew blood on my wife when she have him a treat after (to be fair we know he aggressively takes treats right after an 'abuse' so she should have been a bit more careful). Xena handled it marginally better, but again its not like they haven't been groomed before its just this time he took it hard for some reason that I can't fathom.

Well tomorrow is finally Vet visit day for the first time they've been bonded. I'm a bit nervous so wish us luck, especially since I'm still on the fence about taking them in the same or separate carriers.


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## smurfs

Good Luck! We have a guinea pig and we took him out the other day for a cuddle. Whenever we touched his back, he was shaking his head madly and biting clothes (which is unusual for guinea pigs), and we discovered he had a sore bit on his back. That could be why your rabbit was being aggressive. Are the prongs on the brush that u used sharp?


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## Troller

We were were using a soft brush, so no prongs, he just hates being held. I probably should hold him more often to get used to it better, its just I dont think he'll ever get used to it .

Vet went smoothly, though it surprised me that Conan generally handled it well but Xena was really scared. Conan still has the two calluses on his paws that need caring for and at 15lb 12oz he's on the cusp of being to chubby but still healthy and well the Vet says. Xena is completely clear in health, weighing 17lb 8oz and perfect weight for her size. Their weights surprised me because by my home scale they were both about 2lb lighter but hey, they're big bunnies so its all good.


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## Chrisdoc

Bandy´s not keen on being groomed but I just find you have to be firm and not give up until you´re ready. 

Good that the vet´s visit went well. Wow, those are big bunnies, the largest of mine weighs 1.880 kg at the moment. 

After all the vet´s visits and treatments with Bandy right now, he is becoming a bunny who is OK with being handled when he was the one who struggled the most before so I suppose something good has come out of all that´s he´s going through. Not wishing any illness on anyone but handling frequently definitely gets them used to it.


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## Troller

So was watching Wrestlemania (cant help it, its been a tradition for nearly 30 years now) and guess who came down to wrasske with some veggies...
http://youtu.be/_GfWLWbDl5w


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## Troller

Well I've been busy of late, which is a shame because it keeps me from my lil buns. I take care of my mom now practically full time, in the middle of buying a house, and generally working so its made me a stranger. The only time I feel my rabbits get time with me is when Im cleaning, grooming or feeding them. They never really liked me so now I guess they run from me more then ever. Oh well.

I went on vacation two weeks ago and left my In-laws to take care of the destructive duo. Poor In-laws, they did a great job but they weren't used to the process so they had a difficult time. Funny enough even with these great little pains they enjoyed the rabbits and called them cute. As owners of cats, they see that rabbits are their own creatures and bring their own joys and stresses. To me it reinforces the idea that rabbits are not beginner pets, at least not giant ones.

Conan and Xena are healthy and happy, though lately even more destructive then usual, and are losing their litter training somewhat. The destructive part I understand, I haven't been as careful with their surroundings as I usually am. The loss of litter habits has me scratching my head though. They poop more often everywhere, which i can let go since thats easy to clean, but often peeing outside the box is getting annoying. I dont think its illness related since they just had a check up and its not often enough, so I think it might be obstinacy on their part. I put another litterbox in the 2nd floor of their condo and put down some carpeting to make traction better, and yet still they pee outside the box. I'm trying now to lock them in their cage for a few days to limit their freedom and hope they get back to better habits. I'll expand their territory slowly, but I'm sure Im not doing our relationship any favors like this. I just feel bad punishing them like that, and I'll probably end up doing this all over again when we move.

Oh and that's another concern. I have to figure out a new set up now. We'll have more space, and now since I'll own I can make changes like cut a hole for a pet door so my rabbits can wander as they please without letting the cockatiels out (the current situation is he rabbits get full run of the big apartment and night while the birds are sleeping, during the day they're in the pet room). Of course we now want to limit the cockatiels a bit, not let them have whole room all the time so we need to buy a walk in aviary, which could also work as a rabbit den, but it also Means I got to get creative in making it a custom enclosure for both birds and rabbits. Dont need poop raining down on rabbits, while making sure the rabbits can come and go while the birds are a bit more restricted. Then again if the buns keep pooping and peeing like they've been, maybe he whole lot get their time a big restricted.

Its tough trying to give all the animals free time while making your life at lest somewhat easy. I wonder if they are truly my pets, or am i just theirs


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## Troller

Today is my first bunny's 2nd Birthday! Happy Day of Birth Conan the Bunbarian!!!

In other news, punishing my two trouble makes by limiting their territory has led to an interesting development. Apparently I caught Xena humping Conan. Poor guy, guess out of stress she felt the need to reestablish order. Not once did they do this when bonding a year ago but now...


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## Chrisdoc

Good to see you back and that these two are doing well but still causing headaches. I think they all do now and again. Bandy is pooping and always leaves a pee during the night outside the box. Probably due to medication so will last until he comes off it. Poor Conan, bet he wondered what was going on with Xena humping him again. 

Good to see you got your new house, will be great to have more space for everyone, can't wait to see how you set up your space.


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## Troller

Thanks Chrisdoc

And now some random pics.


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## PaGal

I do love seeing those two!

Congratulations on your home! I wonder how Conan and Xena will react to the move.


Give Conan a belated Birthday nose rub for me!


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## Troller

Nothing really new to report. Closing in on the house which is good, and the two areas of decoration that I'm most interested in is a new habitat for my buns and an outdoor grill. The thing I've come to realize about Conan & Xena is to feel most comfortable they like having a place with a roof over their, so human of them I guess. So an open pen is a no go, and for the next cage I want something that will be more harmonious with our decor, especially since they will now be in the TV room. Most hutches are too small and too outdoors looking so I ruled those out. Most furniture would only work for smaller bunnies, not my Giants. But I have an idea. 

I was thinking of getting a high rise platform bed like this one





My thinking is it will be up against two walls and next to my couch so the one side, the headboard and part of the other side will be covered. Within, underneath it, I'll add the NIC cubes or a small pen to keep the buns from chewing the wood and contained when I need them to be. This way the space used for their habitat isn't completely lost and they gain the roof they so need to feel comfortable. In a pinch my family can sleep on it, even though I question how good a sleep anyone would get with giant rabbits as downstairs neighbors. But it can definitely be used to relax as a day bed thing.


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## pani

Ooh, I like that idea! A very trendy way to house indoor rabbits.


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## Troller

Yeah, but sadly by wife didn't like it. Is it cause I' a man I got bad taste? Heh, I had to explain however most furniture hack for hutches is limited because our buns are too big so only a bed or dinning table will do.


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## PaGal

I do like that idea and have thought of similar ones myself. I would love to find a large dresser or maybe entertainment center I could convert. 

Maybe you should just keep looking and brain storming. It's possible you will come up with something that will work for the buns and your wife will approve of.


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## qtipthebun

I like that idea... Mine just took over the walk in closet as their home base, although they are free roaming. Let me know if you figure out the lax litter box thing... Going through it with my two as well.


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## Troller

Well qtipthebun, so far what's been sort of working to counter the lax litter box training is the day I clean the cage, I lock them in for the night. I won't say it's worked 100% but I have seen a noticeable effect where they pee outside their box less. I still have to refine my process though.


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## Troller

Sadly we will not be getting a house due in some part by being misled by 'professionals', so no upgrade for us. In fact since part of the reason I was pushing so hard for a house was so I can bring my sick mother with me so I can watch her full time instead of being torn between two places, we will probably downgrade and move in with her.

Less space. But there are positives like being closer to my job, and we will be saving even more for next years house search. But I hate it. Its not like we need to move, just I cant be in two places anymore. The buns will suffer a bit, instead of being in a room they'll have the kitchen, but the overall area will be smaller and of course now I'll be in a bedroom. My wife, bless her, believes in the long run this will be a good plan for us but it means delaying for one more year any plans to starting a family and I really didnt want to be 40 starting on that, but we also want more security in the long run. 

Just venting. I hope its not too cruel keeping my buns, but I love them and its not like I plan to keep them in a cage or anything.


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## PaGal

I really am so very sorry that your plans fell through. I do understand all of your thoughts on moving in with your mom and all. It is wonderful that you do care for her because not every child would care for their parent. 

I'm sure Conan and Zelda will be fine. They may have less room but as you have said they won't be in a cage. Who knows, maybe you can teach them to use a harness and take up walking them to spice up their lives. That would be a cool sight to see.


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## Troller

Thanks, I appreciate the bolstering of flagging spirits. Spent some time communing with my rabbits and while they still dont enjoy my company as much as they do my wife, they do let my lay with them under the table.


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## Azerane

Sorry to hear that your plans didn't work out, it's always tough when you're looking forward to something like that.

Even if they like your wife more, I'm sure the bunnies still cheer you up  I find whenever I'm having a hard day that it just helps to spend time with or simply watch Bandit. It's relaxing... when he's not getting into trouble


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## kmaben

Conan and Xena wont hold it against you. We moved on post and the hippity hops got down graded as well. I really have to stay on top of letting them out and yard time. They tend to get bored in the smaller space but no personality changes. Sorry your plans didnt work out the way you wanted. My parents were about your age when they started with us kids. My dad swears I'm the reason he stayed young and my mom swears I'm the reason she's falling apart. You set life plans but then life throws a curve ball at you. Snuggle with a rabbit. My little bad rabbit doesnt like anyone but sometimes fighting with her can be fun.


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## Troller

So Conan & Xena got into a fight last night while me and the wife were at work. That's the frightening part of leaving two bonded buns alone, when things like this occur you dont know what set them off you just see the aftermath. Well even worse, because when I got home after my wife she said Conan ran out the bun room as soon as she opened the door but all i saw was the both of them cuddling, you might never know anything had happened.

The signs of a fight were there though. Only Conan fur around, and Xena pee on the second floor of their condo. Xena does payback pee, peeing out of the box when she's angry. In this case though they must have ran in the puddle and flicked pee on the walls high enough to get over the splash guard I had set up. I was tired and really looking forward to bed but I had to clean the mess up before worse happened.

Monitored them tonight, and they seem as happy as ever. Why do buns have to have these type of fights when they are friends...and worse, I wanted to check for any injuries but couldn't since when I woke up I had a family medical issue pop up which used any free time up and now I'm at work so I got to wait to check them thoroughly tomorrow. An eyeball scan shows nothing wrong with Xena, and Conan looking a little fur ragged but none the worse for wear. I'd have my wife do it since she's off, but she has a hard time lifting them where I can do it pretty easy. She says they're fine though.

And thanks for the positive remarks folks, it does make me feel a bit better. Nice to get it off my chest somewhere since I seem to be doing the stoic man thing and keeping my lips shut off the keyboard.


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## PaGal

Who knows why they do some of the things they do. Maybe some rabbit couples are just like some human couples, some get along fantastically and others although they stay together fight a lot. 

I have worried about the same thing with the girls. I know most will say intact buns cannot truly be bonded but they do everything a bonded pair does. They will mount each other though and now and then one will chase the other but there has never been any wounds, not a one. So maybe it is no different then when you see wild buns playing together. I figure if there was going to be a full out attack it would have happened by now since it has been over two years they have been together. 

Hopefully it will be the same with Conan and Xena, just a minor tiff now and then but no harm. 

40 is not so old for starting a family and as you said you will be able to save more for the house search. That is never a bad thing especially if it means you will have less money to owe in the long run. 

I think you will also really appreciate the additional time with your mother.


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## Azerane

That's unfortunate that they had a dust-up, but at least it doesn't sound too serious and they're getting along still.


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## Chrisdoc

My two boys have had quite a few tiffs during their time but have never seriously fought for quite a while. I have to have faith that they are happy together, I know they hated it when they were separated and they are all so much happier together. I´m sure they will be fine, just like an old married couple having a fall out and then making up.


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## Troller

An odd thought came to me today. I saw that they must have had another minor tiff, looks like Conan returned the favor today and Xena was cowed, and I realized that even at their worst they never really hirt each other but that one time during the bonding process when the next after one of their dates I noticed a cut on Conan's brow, above his eye. I thought it must have been from one of their dust ups, so i took him to the vet, got it fixed and suspended dating. Its in the blog here somewhere, and it got me questioning if I could even bond these two. 

Yet an odd memory came up. I recall during one of the dates, I actually think that one, where While trying to get Conan out I accidentally git him with carrier door. It didn't look like any damage happened but I could swear now it might have been what actually cut him. I mean even in their fights the only thing Ive ever seen out of them is fur pulling and some scratches. I can't say Xena didn't do it, but it seems strange that this was the only time it ever happened. So I wonder. 

Yeah Chrisdoc I read your blog where a few month back you had that issue. I guess it happens, but did you let them choose each other or did you do what i did and get bunnies together and hope for the best?


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## Chrisdoc

The smaller two were together from birth and Bandy joined them after 4 months. I just put him in and let them get on with it, he was only tiny at that time so they all grew up together. Bandy has never had issues with either of them but they have had their moments.


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## Troller

Interesting. Its really fascinating the differences in approach from place to place. In Europe I read that rabbit owners and rescues are more casual about bonding rabbits where here in the States everyone urges to let rabbits choose each other. I wish there were studies on these things. 

Well on to home front matters. I'm tired of my rabbits never coming out of their room and their room just too small for me to relax in comfortably so I decided to force the rabbits to be in the living room with us. Its a little cruel herding them out there but its the least they can do for the free room and board supplied to them. Turns out its been pretty cool.

Now I cant say they enjoy it entirely, but they do get their fresh veggie treat there, its only an hour, and theres still space for them to lounge around. They hop on the couch, on me, over my face, and then finally relax. It was my wife's first time experiencing it (Ive done it for 3 days now) and She thinks its a blast. I hope they eventually realize its done out of love, and they just look to **** cute all close up.


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## PaGal

Over time they will probably get used to the new space and enjoy being there even more. 

When I let Thumper out of the bun room he doesn't seem to stay in the den long unless I have hay available to him in the den. Almost always if I don't provide some and he leaves the den and I go to check on him he's in his cage munching his hay.


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## Troller

My buns tend to not concentrate on hay so much. Makes no difference whether its fresh or has been there. They like their set up and venture out of it rarely so I got to force them from time to time to be more social lest they become hermits.

Speaking of the forcing for attention, here they are looking so unhappy at spending time with us in the living room.


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## Troller

Saw a pic of this bun today, thought it was funny.


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## Azerane

lol, that's great. You should post it in the funny meme of the day thread 

Just look at those two lounging around, so much bunny to love!


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## Troller

I was thinking of that, but is this a meme? Either way its funny right. And thanks for the kind words about my loungers.


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## Chrisdoc

They look so settled together, love seeing these two. Pic is funny


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## Troller

Ao the truth comes out. When I leave the house the rabbits have a binky party (I actually thought they had grown out of it) around where my wife sits...I know I sound like a broken record at this point but **** buns, no love for daddy!


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## Azerane

What little (or rather big) stinkers they are!! Can't believe they save the binkies for when you're not around.


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## Troller

My wife is off on vacation for a week so I get all the love...snicker...not really but I'd like to think so. No binkies or what not but I'll survive. Was spending some quality time, petting, brushing what not when again I made the observation that Conan's fur is so much softer the Xena's coarse fur, but then the amount he sheds is nuts. He's not even molting and I feel like I'm removing a rabbits full worth of fur every week. He's a Flemish, I would hate to see what an Angora or a Lionhead must be like if my breed supposedly isn't that much of a shedder. The little stinker is not a fan of my ministrations but what are you going to do, maintenance needs to be done.


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## Chrisdoc

I do laugh at their indifference to you, you truly are their slave. Bandy loses loads of fur and it gets everywhere, I keep a good supply of lint removers to get rid of all that hair.


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## Troller

Indifference! Yesterday my wife comes home and its like a Disney scene, they come to her wanting for pets and circling around her. This morning same thing. I mean I was the one who talked her into getting rabbits those ingrates! It is funny though at my expense.


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## Troller

So it seems the buying house thing came back up and is a strong possibility. This week I'll either know I'm buying a house or moving in with my mother by October. What a strange set of circumstances to have such polar opposites. Either the dynamic duo of Conan & Xena will be packing up for a new home.

Speaking of which I'm coming in on my anniversary of having adopted Conan. Two years he 's been with me, and if anything he's gotten cuter and grumpier. I can't see myself with him or rabbits in my life anymore. Never have I been around a domestic animal that has so fascinated me. 

Otherwise the buns are good. An anti-social lot however , as i have to constantly force them into the family room but once there they look pretty comfortable I think you'd agree.


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## Troller

The other night (of course while I was at work) the dynamic duo came out to hang out with my wife. At one point she was eating a peach, and of all buns Conan, the picky one, makes attempts at the peach. He actually managed to run off with it and my wife had to chase him down. She gave him a fleshy piece and of course he didnt want it, just the pit. Xena then made her own attack on the pit. Silly rabbits can't have them get ill from trying, its just strange that Conan who's been more pickier then ever tried.


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## Troller

Well its been two months since my last check in. Big things have happened. I went on vacation to Ireland (not my first time, but my wife's first time and it was a blast), but right before I had the excitement of a house closing and I can say I'm now a first time home owner! Of course one of the first things I did was move my bunnies in! They took to it like pro's, they love the running around and seem generally relaxed in their new place.

Of course there's a but. Heh, their current set up is in the basement and is only temporary while we fix the flooring and all and actually move in which won't be until the first of November. They seem so happy though in the basement, but I just want them to free roam where I primarily dwell so I'm going to be selfish and make them get used to a new area again shortly. Sadly it won't be as carpeted, but who know's maybe they'll enjoy it nonetheless. Here's some pics and videos. 

http://youtu.be/aO4AQeylmUM
http://youtu.be/hoWpbWbp_uM


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## pani

Congratulations on the house!!  That must be super exciting. Can't wait to see Xena and Conan's digs once the floors are done.


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## Troller

Well a month later and I finally feel a little more comfortable in my big ol' new house. I finally moved the rabbits from the basement enclosure to the proper floor with us. Only its smaller then what they had in my old home and in their temp place. Old home was a 2 floor bunny condo was 8ft by 3 and a 1/2 ft. The temporary one was actually pretty similar in size (without a second floor). This new one (I'll post pics later when I take them) is 5ft'3in by 2ft'6in. Rather small for two Flemish, and I do feel a little bad about it but it was the one clear space that wouldn't ruin my families cherished aesthetics of the new home, plus with the new house they can truly be free roam bunnies rather then have to be kept in a single room and let out only when the birds are asleep. The only problem is too much hardwood flooring and not enough carpeting. I hope they eventually adapt. 

One thing I noticed, since they didn't have a lot of out time in the basement, when they did come out they were a lot more happier and friendlier. My hope is that no that they can truly adapt to being part of the family since there is little limitation of their movements, and the new enclosure is smack dab in the middle of the house. Only time will tell.


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## Troller

Well I've expanded my rabbits roaming territory, and they really seem to like the freedom. However in order to do that they needed some extra carpets because even with only about a foot and a half of hardwood floor space between carpet it proved too scary for them to go over. They quickly found their usual sweet spot under the dining room table and promptly began to dismantle my old rug under it. No biggie, I expected that so the damage is minuscule. 

Also, I found out my mother in law can actually call the rabbits over to her (not always, but I just saw her do it). I'm around them all the time and she's only occasionally around them! So it turns out they like even her better then me. Man, these fuzzy butts are going to give me a complex at this rate. 

Sadly not all is happy times at our house. Our cockatiels have been hurting themselves flying around. Luckily no major injuries. but one of them lost her feathers around her ears and now looks like she has a hole straight into her head. We don't want to clip their feathers because we like them flying around, but we can't keep risking them injuring themselves so we've had to cut the access to the larger spaces.


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## Troller

Here's my new set up. Its a 5ft by 2 and 1/2ft former laundry closet where we put up a shelf to store all their stuff. Its small for Flemish, but since they get to free roam this is really just their bedroom and bathroom.. I think they're pretty happy, especially the free roam part because I constantly find them in the huge living room. All's good except for two things. The carpet for the dinning room isn't rabbit proof, so they've been tearing it up. That's not a huge issue because it was kind of expected and its a rug from back in my bachelor days so my wife is perfectly happy of getting rid of it eventually  . The other issue is they keep doing tremendous binky's while I'm not looking. My mother-in-law likens it to horses galloping and she says they achieve some serious height. Of course they do it while I'm not around or not looking


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## Troller

All the freedom seems to have gone to their...ahem, well they ended up peeing on my living room carpet. Their litter box is roughly 15ft away, I don't think it's that far for these big buns, so personally i think they did it out of laziness. They like being in the living room so much i guess they wish their den was there. Sigh...so I decided to limit their territory again for a day and begin expanding again slowly. I might put out another litter box, I have no issue with that, but I have a sneaky suspicion there is something else going on then just their box is too far.


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## Troller

Figured I'd share this pic. The buns seem really happy in this new house, constantly lounging around and not being as skittish. Xena is constantly dead flopping and so inured to human company she actually allowed my wife belly kisses while Xena was dead flopped. Conan hardly moves when you try to get around him in a tight hallyway. Heh, if anything these buns have become lovable obstacles!


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## JBun

They've certainly made themselves at home. And those are no small obstacles to go around!

I'm so glad everybun has settled in so well 

Sorry the cockatiels have had a harder go at the new place. I hope things are a bit more settled for them now.


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## Sugarbread

They are so cute, My little Lovelace likes belly kisses when he's flopped out too! Lol!


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## Troller

This is us trying to give the rabbits some holiday spirit...Yeah, they are not happy about it but its the price they pay for room and board.


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## whiskylollipop

Aww! Conan's giving you the stink-eye and Xena's just resigned to it, haha. Hope your cockatiels are feeling better.


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## Troller

Thanks, yeah Titania's ear feathers have grown in so she doesn't look mutilated or abused. They seem to not be flying into as many things thank goodness but it still freaks me out. But man have they gotten louder of late and I'm not sure why. 

As for Conan, yeah he's always giving me a stink eye. Today we finally wrapped the presents and put them under the christmas tree. First year we have a fake one, both rabbits came up to it, tried to nibble and decided its not for them so there is no worry about them and the tree. But he second I out down the presents Conan would run over to 'investigate' whenever I wasn't nearby. Luckily Im too smart for that so immediately put up a barrier just in case. I figure to keep it up for one more day and after the presents are given out I'll just take it down again.


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## Troller

Having a huge problem with the buns of late. They keep peeing on the living room carpet, so much so that cleaning it is no longer working and stains still remain. I have no idea what got into these guys (I suspect its Xena) as they never peed on the carpet before. So now we're trying to figure out what to do design wise in the living room. Meanwhile we've gone back to basics and locked the buns back up until they learn their proper litter box. 
I truly don't think its an issue of not having enough litter boxes. They also pee on the bathroom mat and that's located maybe 6ft away from their den. They don't pee on the hallway carpet which is right next to their den. I guess its just one of those strange things but **** I wish I could figure it out so I don't have to throw out any more carpets and won't have my family upset that they can't get nice things.


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## PaGal

That tough. The only advice I know is to clean with vinegar, spay or neuter whish in your case has been done (well not your case but the buns  ) and start over with litter training which you are doing.

Don't you just wish they could understand us so we could explain why they should not do these things. Good Luck!


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## Troller

So they peed on that carpet so much we can't use it any longer and I got to figure if there's anyway to remove the stains. Then today we noticed a spot of pee in our bed room carpet, yet they've never been to our room! It's definitely one of them, to similar to pee patterns found in their usual spots it just amazes me that somehow they snuck in to our bedroom, peed, then snuck out all without us seeing it!

A related amusing story to share. We have my wife's grandma in town and she's staying with us in our spare room. One morning grandma groggily wakes up thinking the downstairs cat somehow had gotten upstairs to pester her but the ears were far too long. It was Xena in the bed with her. Apparently she had snuck when grandma had gone to use the facilities and was locked in all night! The strange thing was Xena didn't pee in that room, nor did she eat any of the plants (things she's notorious for) for a stretch of at least 8 hours!!! What to do with this girl, when it's obvious she can behave, she just chooses not to.

In other news we've been approved to get an Icelandic Sheepdog, so soon my wife will accomplish her life long dream of owning a dog. Now hopefully I can get the menagerie to all coexist peacefully together.


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## whiskylollipop

Cats, rabbits, birds and now a dog, free-ranged bunnies and pee on your carpet, and you're still typing away civilly! How do I find a guy like you???

All my life the people I've loved and lived with have always laid down the law that "cleanliness > animals' happiness", and my life goals have been reduced to "maybe own a very neat cat one day and be able to let the bunnies out during daytime". :grumpy:


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## PaGal

The only advice I can give is to clean the area with the usual vinegar/water mix. Trying on a small spot first to make sure it will not permanently discolor your rug. I have a spot bot and love the thing. Makes a thorough clean up so much quicker and easier.

BTW I had never heard of that breed of dog which does not happen often as I've been an animal lover especially dogs since I can remember. Did a quick search. Handsome dogs they are and sound like they would make a good companion.


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## Troller

Saw the dog on Saturday, and he is adorable. I'm still not a pet person and only the rabbits have kind of shaken me out of it a little, but the puppy is a sweet little guy. The runt of the litter. I'd show pics but until I actually have the dog (by the end of February) I don't want to jinx it.

What's this Spot Bot PaGal? I'll look it up, I'm intrigued. Right now we have no carpet in the living room for them to pee all over so it's been quiet. Surprisingly no pee in the Hallway carpet that they spend the majority of their time on. Maybe they just see it as part of their den so they keep it cleaner. 

Today my In-laws heard a commotion in the early morning, and when I woke up I saw what looked like pulled out fur. I guess the buns got in a fight, no visible injuries, but still spooked me a little cause they haven't fought in almost a year now so it was a little surprising. They also seem hungrier lately, and thirstier. I thought it could be it being winter but the house stays a consistent temperature so could it be instinctual rather then environmental? They're acting the same, just seem like they need a little more of everything. I guess I'll have to keep an eye on things.


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## Troller

Doing the monthly intense check, and it seems Conan again has developed sore hocks. **** it. Well, not sore, but circular bald patches on his back hocks. They are not red, nor hot, but they are there. So I put some bag balm and will repeat. I don't get it, he's not overweight and he's on carpets or the rubber mat all day. It may be his toenails, but I clip those. Maybe he's just prone to it. Xena as always is fine.


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## Azerane

Bandit also has a tiny bare patch on each of his heels, I was worried about it but I'm told it's not unusual and only if it's sticky/wet or red and inflamed is it an issue. Hope it doesn't develop further with Conan.

Hope all goes well with the puppy, hoping for pictures


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## Troller

Well I hope I'm not jinxing this, but in two weeks I'll be picking up this puppy. His name is Bassi which I'm told means Little Bear. He's the runt of the litter, but his litter-mates were all big so he's basically regular size for an Icelandic Sheepdog. 

Today I spent the day doing the usual rabbit chores, cleaning out the rabbit area and then the bird area...and now it seems I'll be adding a dog to that list. And I'm not a pet person...Oh well, this blog makes a liar out of me and the fact I do take care of my pets has got to mean I care. I guess...


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## Troller

A weekend of discoveries for me. This weekend we discovered Xena had an abscess on the side of her hock, sort of between the joint of her foot and her leg. My wife being a nurse treated it, and we remain vigilant. Plus a Vet appointment is coming up. That was the only sad thing from my duo.

Discovered that Xena has this thing where she clamps onto my wife's hand to force my wife to give her pets...This stunned me. I wasn't aware that any of my rabbits exhibited behavior where they want human attention. My wife nonchalantly let it be known that this has been happening for a long time and assumed that Xena did it with me... No, as I have stated numerous times the rabbits that I cherish and fought to have pretty much run away from me. She could have at least shared that yes, the do have interest in human contact. Heh heh, well no big deal it was just really sweet to know that. Maybe some day they won't see me as the mean large beast who kicks them out of their home to rearrange things (clean). 

Last discovery, we've been preparing things for the imminent arrival of our puppy. We got this dog bed and such. Well when we first got rabbits we tried with the dog bed but there was no interest. Tonight however, the bunny has landed and now we probably lost the dog bed...


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## JBun

I think Conan has staked a claim. What I'm wondering is if Xena managed to squeeze her big furry butt in there next to Conan  They're so huge! All 10 of my rabbits sitting in that bed, wouldn't fill it up.


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## Azerane

Oh they're adorable!  That puppy is in for one heck of a surprise!


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## pani

How cute are they in the dog bed?!

Will you be letting the buns and Bassi out at the same time? Curious as to how they'll get along!


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## Troller

pani said:


> Will you be letting the buns and Bassi out at the same time? Curious as to how they'll get along!



The plan is yes, after of course they learn to get along. I chose the Icelandic Sheepdog specifically because its a breed with a Low Prey Drive, known to get along with kids and other pets. Also, Bassi so far seems to be the most mellow of the litter so I'm hoping that, some training, patience and a bit of good luck will make for a happy household.


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## Troller

So Xena decided to help me file my taxes. I agreed with her that the government takes too big a bite out of my income but that was no reason to chew on said fact. I wonder if the rabbit ate my tax info works as good as the dog ate my homework. Luckily the damage wasn't too bad but I'm sure my accountant thinks less of my responsible nature. And my wife thought it was better to take this pic then stop her right away...Yeah, she says that she didn't think what Xena was chewing was important...


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## MILU

hahah - Xena wants to help you, she sees you worried when looking at those papers, so she decided to shred them for you, to get you off that sort of pain. Of course she noticed you don't have a paper shredder, and that's why she did it for you.


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