# Owner of 2 mini rabbits in need of Help!



## Guy A (Jan 22, 2022)

Hello,

I hope I can find some answers here. 
I own 2 mini rabbits for 3 months now and seems like I haven't advanced much in making them comfortable. They still poo and pee everywhere and most of the time are afraid of us when approaching. 

We have changed 5 different spots in the house during this time. In the beginning having them live in their cage with 2 free walks a day until recently when we arranged their current setup as seen in the picture. 

What became obvious right away was that they are much more comfortable walking and showing their 'happy bunny' behaviour on softer floors, although by now they are also ok in their current setting which is mostly marble. The issue and reason we moved from both locations that had soft floors is that they were peeing and poo all over the place even though we would put 2-3 toilette trays in different corners of the rooms. They are doing the same on the marble floor but at least there it's possible to clean after them.

Would appreciate any advice on anything I should do differently for them to live happily.

p.s. they are both 5 months old now.


----------



## Fuz (Jan 22, 2022)

Hello. Good on you for trying so hard! Please look up tips on this forum for litter training a rabbit, but very briefly, are your rabbits spayed/neutered? This will help with litter training. Rabbits love to eat while they use their litterbox, and you don't have any hay nearby to encourage good habits. All the poop needs to be picked up and placed in their litterbox, try to do this as soon as you see it happening so your rabbits learn from your actions. 
Those litterboxes seem okay now but eventually, they'll be too small.


----------



## Fuz (Jan 22, 2022)

Fuz said:


> Hello. Good on you for trying so hard! Please look up tips on this forum for litter training a rabbit, but very briefly, are your rabbits spayed/neutered? This will help with litter training. Rabbits love to eat while they use their litterbox, and you don't have any hay nearby to encourage good habits. All the poop needs to be picked up and placed in their litterbox, try to do this as soon as you see it happening so your rabbits learn from your actions.
> Those litterboxes seem okay now but eventually, they'll be too small.


Additionally, they need better traction on the floor. This will help them get to their litterboxes easily. 
Its also recommended to use a bowl rather than a bottle for water.


----------



## Preitler (Jan 22, 2022)

Hi,
which sex and age are they? Between 3 and 6 months they go through puberty, litter training might not worlk well in that time.
If they are of different sex and not spayed/neutered you might need to seperate them until they are.

Anyway, some thoughts on your setup: Yes, most rabbits are more comfortable on something where their feet habve good grip. I use rugs where it's feasable, two sets, one is out in the rain or pressure washed while the other is used (well, I had a disabled rabbit which didn't care much about litter training anymore)

The toilets look rather small, and I would try to put hay in there too, rabbits like to eat and poop. I have the hay rack at the litter box, which is a rather big underbed storage bin, relativ to the rabbits min. about half the size of that cage bottom. Another reason for a layer of hay is that I think they don't like sitting on those wood pellets (this are wood pellets, right?), and with the hay it's easy to get most of the poop out by simply rolling the layer up and putting new in.

I also would offer them more hay, in a feeder rather than on the floor, they don't eat it if it gets soiled.


----------



## Catlyn (Jan 22, 2022)

Welcome to the forum, person from a neighbouring country!
This setup could really use some changes.

With that being said, the lack of litter habits is a mix of their hormones and improper litter setup.

Their litterboxes should be much bigger, at the very least, the size of the white raised part of the cage. For such a small area, one proper litterbox is good. Usually a plastic container is best for the job.
Some people like to line the toilets with newspaper, others do not. The main absorbent bit should be rabbit-safe litter, most people use compressed wood or straw pellets from farm supply stores-cheap, efficient and last longer. There should be few centimeters or so of litter, and in one corner of the toilet, plenty of hay. Rabbits should have a lot of hay avaliable and should eat sbout their body size of hay per day. The amount that your rabbits have is just not enough.

I also agree with @Fuz on swapping to a bowl- a heavier ceramic one from a dish discount should do. I happen to disagree with @Mariam+Theo on the additional restriction. Unless they're already neutered, restricting space won't do much and i've found that this amount of space is actually perfect to start litter training.


----------



## Mariam+Theo (Jan 22, 2022)

Are they spayed/neutered? Litter training is a pain without bunnies being spayed/neutered.
I think the main issue is the litter box set up. The litter boxes are way too small, and there is no hay in them. I see you are using wood pellet litter which is great, but with several changes your bunnies will want to use them more.
Here a link that is so helpful about litter training: Litter Training

Another thing you should do is reduce the space. They have too much space, and that is making it harder for them to get to the litter boxes. I would leave the flooring how it is and remove anything that is soft or that they have peed on before (like that wooden toy in the middle of the room needs to be removed). 
How are you cleaning up pee spots? The best way to clean them up to remove the smell so rabbits won’t pee in that spot again is using vinegar. First soak up the pee with a paper towel and place it in the litter box. Then spray a mixture of 50% water and 50% vinegar on the spot and wipe it up with a paper towel.

I also agree with @Fuz, please swap to a water bowl instead of a bottle. Many people say it is best for the rabbit because it is more natural for them.


----------



## Guy A (Jan 22, 2022)

Fuz said:


> Hello. Good on you for trying so hard! Please look up tips on this forum for litter training a rabbit, but very briefly, are your rabbits spayed/neutered? This will help with litter training. Rabbits love to eat while they use their litterbox, and you don't have any hay nearby to encourage good habits. All the poop needs to be picked up and placed in their litterbox, try to do this as soon as you see it happening so your rabbits learn from your actions.
> Those litterboxes seem okay now but eventually, they'll be too small.



Thx Fuz! It's not easy but I'm not losing hope. They are not sprayed yet but I am starting to think about it considering the litter situation. When is the right time to spray them? 

Thank you for your tips. About the Hay, I put all in the cage and I have recently noticed that they are not as much of it as they used to before. Maybe that's because they spend most of their time outside of their cage. The issues with collecting their poop is that during the week I see them only in the mornings and the evenings... so what I basically do is once in 3-4 days vacuum all the poop that is in their area. 

The issue with these litterboxes is that they dig on them and then the filler and their poop from the litter box fall on the floor. Also recently I caught them a couple of time just laying down on the litter box full of poop - is that normal?

What would you recommend to use for the flooring? I though about buying more of those hay mattes but they dig on them and pee on them so that won't work. Honestly, I am not sure what those mattes are for but they seem to like them and take their naps on them sometimes.

Here are a couple more pictures, the first one is from when I just got them


----------



## Fuz (Jan 22, 2022)

You say they're about 5 months old, so I think you should consider getting them spayed within the next 2-3 months. Bear in mind that they will need some care afterwards, which means that you will have to make arrangements to keep an eye on them for a few days.

If you want to establish good litter habits, I highly recommend getting one or two low-rise plastic storage bins (these are a cost effective option), placing proper litter in them along with hay. Using these litterboxes will keep the contents inside as well, even if the rabbits dig and mess about a little. As others mentioned, you have too little hay for both rabbits and it needs to be available outside the cage as well.

Most rabbits will become fully trained only after spaying/neutering, but you can try spending a day or two over the weekend just making sure you pick up after them and place poop in the litter box. This is what I did with my rabbits and they were trained even before fixing. They're actually pretty smart and will pick up what you're doing (though some are just rascals!).

Flooring: Lots of ideas online including lino, carpet, fleece, amongst others. Please have a look through and decide whats best (i.e. are they going to chew it or not, affordability, ease of cleaning etc). Hay mats are supplemental as they serve as a snack/boredom busters, not to be used as flooring. I personally use a thin fleece blanket. Its easy on the rabbits feet, and I also provide a cooling mat.


----------



## Fuz (Jan 22, 2022)

Also, very cute rabbits!


----------



## Guy A (Jan 22, 2022)

Preitler said:


> Hi,
> which sex and age are they? Between 3 and 6 months they go through puberty, litter training might not worlk well in that time.
> If they are of different sex and not spayed/neutered you might need to seperate them until they are.
> 
> ...



Hi Preitler,
They are both boys and are about 5 months old. 

I bought them a rug for one of their previous spots in the house so I can try and add it to this setup somehow. The only thing I am doing differently with this setup is having their cage open at all times and I guess that's the main reason their poop is all over the place. Do you think I should go back to closing them in their cage and let them out for a walk twice a day? 

I will look for better toilets. Is one in the cage and one on the outside ok? Could you perhaps post a picture of your litter box? I'm posting a picture of what I use top fill their litterboxes. Where should I put the additional hay? on the floor?


----------



## Guy A (Jan 22, 2022)

Catlyn said:


> Welcome to the forum, person from a neighbouring country!
> This setup could really use some changes.
> 
> With that being said, the lack of litter habits is a mix of their hormones and improper litter setup.
> ...



Thank you very much Catlyn for your advice! 

Regarding the hay, I give them 3-4 handfuls of Hay twice a day and put it under what I think you called the white raised part of the cage (if that is where their water bottle is). I ordered some ceramic bowls for their food/water and should receive them this week. Will try to find a plastic container the size you mentioned as the online store I am using to buy them stuff only has small litterboxes.


----------



## Guy A (Jan 22, 2022)

Mariam+Theo said:


> Are they spayed/neutered? Litter training is a pain without bunnies being spayed/neutered.
> I think the main issue is the litter box set up. The litter boxes are way too small, and there is no hay in them. I see you are using wood pellet litter which is great, but with several changes your bunnies will want to use them more.
> Here a link that is so helpful about litter training: Litter Training
> 
> ...



Thank you! 

I found out space can be a problem with the previous spot they used to live in. It was the biggest room in the house that a full floor carpet. They were living in their cage with 2 walks a day and even though they seemed to be happy of just wandering around that huge space they were impossible to approach - especially the Mini Rex! Many a times I found myself running after them in circles... it was terrible. One time I took the Mini Rex in my hands and right away it freaked out and started moving it's legs aggressively and I kind of threw it away from me while sitting. After this incident I called the person who sold them to me and complained to her and asked her to take them back. It seemed so strange to me that they are not developing any closure with me even though I am spending so much time with them. I then surfed the web and decided to try a smaller space as is in their current setup and they really have been doing much better ever since. The Mini Rex is still more on the aggressive side but I learned to accept him the way he is rather then forcing him into something else. Thank you for your advice about removing the pee spots - will definitely try that out!


----------



## Preitler (Jan 22, 2022)

Well, about litterbox setup: I do it pretty much like Blue Eyes posted here:





How to get rid of urine stains


Hi everyone! I have a 2 year old mini lop called Flynn. He has his own room but is restricted during sleeping hours for his own safety (he likes to get up to mischief!) He is spot cleaned every day yet as soon as he pees, which can be often, he lies in it. He is a pure white rabbit which often...




www.rabbitsonline.net





Wood stove pellets are really great - and cheap. Only difference I do is that I put a layer of wasted hay on top of the pellets from the start to keep them from digging. Yes, it's normal that they sometimes lounge in there.

Never chase a rabbit if it can be avoided. I always call them and shake the pellet pail before I give them their daily ration (which is just a small handfull for 2 big rabbits), so whenever I need them to come I just call, or shake the pellets.
Handling them is something that can be trained too, it takes patience, treats and small steps, and it really is individual how much a rabbit accepts it at the end.


----------



## Mariam+Theo (Jan 22, 2022)

Guy A said:


> They are both boys and are about 5 months old.


Since they are not neutered I highly suggest splitting them up. When rabbits hit 6 month old their hormones change and they will become aggressive towards other rabbits and sometimes towards humans. Rabbits will fight, sometimes to the death, so the best thing for your boys will be to separate them, neuter both of them, wait 2 months for their hormones to calm down, and then slowly start the bonding process from there.
Here is a link on bonding: Bonding Bunnies

Once they are neutered their litter habits will come naturally. To keep them from digging in the litter box, you can add hay to the top as @Preitler suggested or you can use a screen.

Please never chase your bunnies. Rabbits prefer to come to you if they want attention. I suggest you take time to bond with your bunnies and build a close relationship with them based on trust.


----------



## Guy A (Jan 23, 2022)

Preitler said:


> Well, about litterbox setup: I do it pretty much like Blue Eyes posted here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Of course I understand but add stress from work, coming home and dedicating time to being with your bunnies instead of doing something else only to find them or at least one of them seeing you as a complete threat - I'm not too surprised I lost it. Plus I didn't have much information about bunny behaviour. 

But thankfully I managed to figure out the problem was them having way too much space. Now we are doing much better in terms of our bond with them and how we interact.

And still I really want to improve their setup and find out more about their needs.

I am feeding them 2 spoons (not the tea ones) of pellets twice a day and recently I've started to add vegetables and fruits. The Hay I am refreshing also twice a day.


----------



## Guy A (Jan 23, 2022)

Mariam+Theo said:


> Since they are not neutered I highly suggest splitting them up. When rabbits hit 6 month old their hormones change and they will become aggressive towards other rabbits and sometimes towards humans. Rabbits will fight, sometimes to the death, so the best thing for your boys will be to separate them, neuter both of them, wait 2 months for their hormones to calm down, and then slowly start the bonding process from there.
> Here is a link on bonding: Bonding Bunnies
> 
> Once they are neutered their litter habits will come naturally. To keep them from digging in the litter box, you can add hay to the top as @Preitler suggested or you can use a screen.
> ...



I could close one in the cage and have the other in the area where the red litterbox and woodier stuff is and maybe switch between who is where every now and then. They will be able to spend time together during feeding time twice a day. Will that be ok?

I will contact to the person who sold them to me this week and have them neutered as soon as possible.


----------



## Fuz (Jan 23, 2022)

We understand it can be a bit difficult and frustrating when all you want to do is love on them.. But please dont chase or throw your rabbits. If you are stressed from work, take ten minutes out for yourself to relax, and then approach them. 
After neutering, bonding males together will also take some time. I also forgot to suggest that you stop moving their home base around, rabbits are territorial and this must be very confusing for them.


----------



## Preitler (Jan 23, 2022)

The sooner you can get them neutered the better - splitting them up is better than having a fight since they would remember that.
If you do split them up I would not give them time together. Things can escalate to a bloody mess in seconds, and for a youngster with raging hormones meeting his "opponent" in what he considers his territory can be a trigger, if one hotspur thinks he needs to show who's boss you quickly have a fight. "Playtimes" isn't really something that works too well with the social behaviour of rabbits.
Depending on how well they still get along imho seperating could be avoided if you get them fixed real soon. I keep bucklings together for up to 5 months, but those are bigger groups which, I think, makes things a little more stable. Also, all rabbits are different.


----------



## Guy A (Jan 23, 2022)

Mariam+Theo said:


> Are they spayed/neutered? Litter training is a pain without bunnies being spayed/neutered.
> I think the main issue is the litter box set up. The litter boxes are way too small, and there is no hay in them. I see you are using wood pellet litter which is great, but with several changes your bunnies will want to use them more.
> Here a link that is so helpful about litter training: Litter Training
> 
> ...



So I should also remove the hay mattes where they peed on right?


----------



## Preitler (Jan 23, 2022)

Since they like peeing on those I would cut them up and put them in the litter boxes, with some wood pellets underneath to absorb the urine. If they aren't too thick, or use them in new, bigger litter boxes. Might help getting them used to those.


----------



## Guy A (Jan 23, 2022)

Also once I separate them, where should I put hay in the outside area? Just on the floor? I guess if I put in some box the bunny will take it for the litter box, right?


----------



## Guy A (Jan 23, 2022)

Preitler said:


> Since they like peeing on those I would cut them up and put them in the litter boxes, with some wood pellets underneath to absorb the urine. If they aren't too thick, or use them in new, bigger litter boxes. Might help getting them used to those.



Nice!!)


----------



## Preitler (Jan 23, 2022)

I use some sort of hay rack, hay on the floor gets soiled easily and is rather wasteful and messy.

There are a lot of solutions for that, like boxes with holes, wire racks etc. - there are threads with pictures of indoor setups where you can find inspiration. Use the search term "indoor cages", select "Search titles only" and browse through the yearly threads , like:





2020 Indoor Cages... add your photo!


Each year we start a new thread to show off our rabbit cages. Not only is it fun to see everyone's cages, it is also useful for new bunny owners. Whether you've made a cage out of cube grids, exercise pen, xl dog crate, old furniture or any combination, we'd love to see it! (there is a...




www.rabbitsonline.net





I also recommend buying hay in bales, so there is no worry about them wasting it 

Also search "Hay rack", select "Search titles only", lots of ideas.





__





Hay Feeder Alternative


Hi everyone! My little bunny does not seem to like his hay feeder. It is one of those ones that come with the cage and is on the outside of it. He only seems to eat his hay out of his litter but I would feel better if he also had some sort of hay feeder to get his fill of hay from. Does anyone...




www.rabbitsonline.net


----------



## Guy A (Jan 23, 2022)

One more thing is cleaning their litterbox which is the worst part in the whole thing for me because of the stinch! Are there any recommendations to make the process more human friendly?


----------



## Guy A (Jan 23, 2022)

so taking into account some of the great advice I got from you good people here is where I am right now. 

I still can’t separate them because I only have one water bowl. Unless I have one of them drink from the bottle… will decide this evening. 

Seems like they have some competition on who is sitting/laying down on the adjusted red litterbox.


----------



## Guy A (Jan 23, 2022)

Came home after a couple of hour out


----------



## Preitler (Jan 23, 2022)

Yes?

You're saying that like, hm, like when a dog misbehaves. That's not what's happening here. You have two juvenile males, full of energy and drive, and when you give them an opportunity and they have nothing else to do, they dig. They are rabbits. It's an instinct. At this age I can tell males and females apart by the way they dig. You can't train that out of them. They are not misbehaving.
What helped me to accept that there is quite a lot going on in those little heads was the book "Watership Down", yes, it's just fiction, but imho a good read for every rabbit owner.

What I noticed is that their enclosure is rather bleak, I would add stuff like cardboard boxes with holes to hide in or to destroy, tree branches to gnaw on, rolls with hay in it they have to chase to get the hay. Imo, those dug out litter boxes are a sign that they are somewhat bored.
It might get better with being neutered and with age, right now you're dealing with teenagers.

Also, as already mentioned, the litter box setup might not be ideal, too small, with the litter not covered, I reckon that'll take some days to address.

There's also the flooring, not all rabbits don't mind slick flooring, so they don't really use that space. I think apart from rugs, vinyl flooring, somewhat structured, is a good base. Also easy to clean.


----------



## Guy A (Jan 23, 2022)

Preitler said:


> Yes?
> 
> You're saying that like, hm, like when a dog misbehaves. That's not what's happening here. You have two juvenile males, full of energy and drive, and when you give them an opportunity and they have nothing else to do, they dig. They are rabbits. It's an instinct. At this age I can tell males and females apart by the way they dig. You can't train that out of them. They are not misbehaving.
> What helped me to accept that there is quite a lot going on in those little heads was the book "Watership Down", yes, it's just fiction, but imho a good read for every rabbit owner.
> ...



I actually posted the pictures in a good sense that there is no more poop all over the place... them digging is not that bad considering it's the first time I put hay on top of the litter. Actually, what is litter referred to in the word litterbox? didn't get what u mean with "with the litter not being covered".

I ordered some toys for them that should arrive on during this week. Regarding the flooring I will try to put the carpet I bought for them in their area and see how it goes.


----------



## Guy A (Jan 23, 2022)

One more question I have is how important is it to let them wander around every now and then? When I let them out of their area Minor (dark bunny) likes to come down the stairs to the 2nd floor and feed on a plant we have in the corridor. 

Personally I like the idea of them walking around part of the house although I don't know how necessary it is for them and whether its good or bad. 

The reason I put them in that big room a couple of months ago is so they could just run and jump around but as I already mentioned that had a negative effect instead of anything good! 

I fear letting them out from their area is also not great. 

Would greatly appreciate your comments on this one.


----------



## Guy A (Jan 23, 2022)

Was not easy but my bunnies are now separated. Rex (light bunny) seems pretty much out of sorts… hope all goes well


----------



## Mariam+Theo (Jan 23, 2022)

Guy A said:


> I could close one in the cage and have the other in the area where the red litterbox and woodier stuff is and maybe switch between who is where every now and then. They will be able to spend time together during feeding time twice a day. Will that be ok?
> 
> I will contact to the person who sold them to me this week and have them neutered as soon as possible.


I would not put them together at all. They might fight over food. Make sure there are at least 3 inches of space between the cages to make sure they don’t nip each other through the cage bars.


Guy A said:


> So I should also remove the hay mattes where they peed on right?


Yes. You might be able to wash those off in the sink and give them back to them


----------



## Guy A (Jan 23, 2022)

Please expand a bit on the process as it's completely new to me. I see you have 2 bunnies, are they both boys? 

You see I got both of them together and they have been living together all this time so it seems kind of cruel to separate them now. 

In the current setup it's especially cruel to have one of them inside the cage and the other out in the pin area. So I thought perhaps I should switch on a daily basis between the 2 being in the cage. 

Now you're saying I should separate them completely... this is a bit more complicated? For how long? what's the idea here? Once I bring them back together what is that going to be like for them?


----------



## Mariam+Theo (Jan 23, 2022)

I do have two rabbits (Theo, who I’ve had since he was a baby. And Will, who I got almost 3 months ago as a friend for Theo) and they are both boys. They have both been neutered and are now in the bonding process. The process is moving super slowly because Theo is aggressive towards Will.
My bunnies are housed in playpens right beside each other. At first these pens were 3 inches apart because Theo would bite Will through the cage bars, but after a month of bonding sessions their pens are now side by side (see pics).

I understand that they have been together for a while, but if bunnies have one really bad fight (which would be expected between two unneutered males) they may never bond. Swapping them from one cage to another every day is ok, but please make sure they can’t get to the other rabbit when you are swapping them. As soon as they get neutered and recover (2 months) you can start the bonding process. Please keep in mind they may never bond. Them being friends before being neutered will not play a role in whether they bond or not.

Once they are neutered their litter habits will improve. The nasty smell will go away, clean up will be much easier, and the rabbits may become friendlier. If the rabbits bond you might consider free roaming them! If my bunnies bond they will be free in my room, which makes them much happier than being in a cage. The only issue would be bunny proofing your house (or the rooms they would be allowed in) but there are so many ideas out there which would help you.


----------



## Guy A (Jan 24, 2022)

Mariam+Theo said:


> I do have two rabbits (Theo, who I’ve had since he was a baby. And Will, who I got almost 3 months ago as a friend for Theo) and they are both boys. They have both been neutered and are now in the bonding process. The process is moving super slowly because Theo is aggressive towards Will.
> My bunnies are housed in playpens right beside each other. At first these pens were 3 inches apart because Theo would bite Will through the cage bars, but after a month of bonding sessions their pens are now side by side (see pics).
> 
> I understand that they have been together for a while, but if bunnies have one really bad fight (which would be expected between two unneutered males) they may never bond. Swapping them from one cage to another every day is ok, but please make sure they can’t get to the other rabbit when you are swapping them. As soon as they get neutered and recover (2 months) you can start the bonding process. Please keep in mind they may never bond. Them being friends before being neutered will not play a role in whether they bond or not.
> ...



Thank you for sharing! This is so very helpful!

I have scheduled for my rabbits to be neutered this Saturday. By then I will try to work on their setup and have them live in neighbouring equally large areas/cages just like your rabbits, and get rid of the smaller cage I thought having one of them live in. 

I just got a larger litterbox (cat litterbox delivered this morning and will set it up this evening. Is the litterbox the only place you put hay in for your rabbits or does it have to be in a different spot besides the litterbox as well.


----------



## Diane R (Jan 24, 2022)

Glad to see you're getting them neutered soon. The floor needs sorting out, that is terrible floor for bunnies and can lead to injuries and long term health problems. Look into textured, cushioned, non-slip lino or stable mats (and not just for their playpen but everywhere) and once they are toilet trained, add soft blankets, especially where they like to sleep. They also need a couple of hiding boxes with at least two exits.


----------



## Guy A (Jan 24, 2022)

thank you for your comment! 

I found this flooring online. Do you think it will do the job?


----------



## Diane R (Jan 24, 2022)

Guy A said:


> thank you for your comment!
> 
> I found this flooring online. Do you think it will do the job?


It could be OK but I would worry they will chew it - if you use it for the playpen then make sure edges are outside of the pen. Also if they are not reliable with the litter tray yet you would need to put some waterproof barrier under it as the urine can get through the seams.


----------



## Mariam+Theo (Jan 24, 2022)

Guy A said:


> Is the litterbox the only place you put hay in for your rabbits or does it have to be in a different spot besides the litterbox as well.


That’s perfect! My bunnies use cat litter boxes also. I have hay only in the litter boxes because it just gets so messy! Occasionally I will put hay in a toy and sprinkle some rose petals on it, but I would not suggest that when litter training as it might confuse them.


Guy A said:


> thank you for your comment!
> 
> I found this flooring online. Do you think it will do the job?


Those will work! I use puzzle mats in one of my bunny pens and I really love them! As @Diane R said, be careful the rabbits don’t chew them. They normally won’t chew them unless they can get to the corner of them. Theo has only chewed them once when a treat got underneath one of them, but even then he didn’t eat the foam. Will has never chewed them, even though he chews everything else he can get to. It really just depends on the rabbit, but I think it’s worth buying them and trying them out.


----------



## Guy A (Jan 25, 2022)

Short update on where I am this evening…

I bought them a couple of houses as well but will probably wait until they come back from the clinic already neutered.

By the way I will have to drive them there in a box and since it’s a 30-40 minutes drive I wonder whether it’s better to put them together in one box orin separated boxes?

appreciate your feedback!


----------



## Diane R (Jan 25, 2022)

Guy A said:


> Short update on where I am this evening…
> 
> I bought them a couple of houses as well but will probably wait until they come back from the clinic already neutered.
> 
> ...


As you have separated them there is no point in transporting them in the same box, use two boxes. Hope it all goes well.


----------



## Guy A (Jan 30, 2022)

Hi everyone,

I just found out I don’t have 2 male rabbits as I thought in the first place. Rex is a male and Minor (dark rabbit) is a female. Maybe someone with experience here can explain me what that means for us going forward as I am quite at shock right now.


----------



## Fuz (Jan 30, 2022)

Actually this might be advantageous. Once they are neutered and spayed, bonding will be alot easier.


----------



## Diane R (Jan 30, 2022)

Guy A said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I just found out I don’t have 2 male rabbits as I thought in the first place. Rex is a male and Minor (dark rabbit) is a female. Maybe someone with experience here can explain me what that means for us going forward as I am quite at shock right now.


Have they been neutered now? You're very lucky you haven't ended up with a litter! If not neutered yet, get that done ASAP, then wait 8 weeks before reintroducing them in neutral territory.


----------



## Guy A (Jan 30, 2022)

I have picked them up from the clinic this afternoon and the lady there told Minor is a girl, even though in the passport it says she's a boy. That's also why she had to charge more than was initially agreed. 

She explained to me how it's difficult to tell the right gender when they are small and that this happens sometimes but I was still very much surprised. 

What is strange is that I remember Minor trying to mate on top of Rex once recently before I separated them, is that normal if Minor's a girl? Where would he have these instincts from?

With litter I am guessing you mean pregnancy? I guess if Minor was to be pregnant, the procedure she went through yesterday would have included an abortion?

Anyways, as I am getting used to this new reality I wanted to ask, when would be a good time to introduce them to their new houses I bought? I guess I'd better observe their litter-box behaviour in the next few days first.


----------



## Fuz (Jan 30, 2022)

How are they doing after the vet visits? Please keep an eye on them to make sure that they eat, drink and use the litter box within 8-12 hours. Look for signs of discomfort etc. 
It's likely she wasn't pregnant, the vet would have mentioned it following the spay operation. 

Mounting is normal, it's to assert dominance and claim territory. 

You can introduce them each to the homes you bought, no need to keep it away in my opinion. But I hope that they're separated during this recovery time. Bonding shouldn't begin until 6-8 weeks from now.


----------



## Guy A (Jan 30, 2022)

They are hardly moving but their eyes are open... actually I must say that I still haven't encountered them fully sleeping ever since I got them. Must be them being very alert to sound and waking up when I'm approaching. There was this one time I was with them for a while and Minor's head was dropping every few seconds for a couple of minutes. That was super sweet 

They are reacting ok to food, I gave them some vegetables which they ate ok. Now I refreshed their hay and gave them their dinner pellets which they are eating with pleasure.

Regarding the poop, it is of a darker color now and Minor's is all over the place. Rex seems to have pooped very little since he got home but I will check in his litter-box later tonight.

Will wait with their new homes until tomorrow and yes they are in separated pens and will stay this way for the next 6-8 weeks as you guys suggested.

Thank you!!


----------



## Diane R (Jan 30, 2022)

Guy A said:


> I have picked them up from the clinic this afternoon and the lady there told Minor is a girl, even though in the passport it says she's a boy. That's also why she had to charge more than was initially agreed.
> 
> She explained to me how it's difficult to tell the right gender when they are small and that this happens sometimes but I was still very much surprised.
> 
> ...


Yes, it's normal, humping is dominance behaviour. I expect you'll see more of that when you eventually start bonding them. Well done getting them neutered! Yes, if she had been pregnant it would have been an abortion but I'm sure the vet would have mentioned it. I would put the houses in, just watch them for a while. Are they wooden houses?


----------



## Fuz (Jan 30, 2022)

Great that they are eating and using their litter box. 
Keep an eye on them to make sure they're not in pain. 
Remove any high objects, they shouldn't be tempted to jump or climb during this time. 
Ensure that none of them lick or pick at the stitches. 

Good luck!


----------



## Guy A (Jan 30, 2022)

Diane R said:


> Yes, it's normal, humping is dominance behaviour. I expect you'll see more of that when you eventually start bonding them. Well done getting them neutered! Yes, if she had been pregnant it would have been an abortion but I'm sure the vet would have mentioned it. I would put the houses in, just watch them for a while. Are they wooden houses?



They are so very sleepy at the moment that's afraid they will hardly react on them so I'll just wait until tomorrow and hope for some happy reaction  Also I am expecting the the remaining puzzle mattes tomorrow to complete all their pen area with it... Will surely upload pictures once it's complete! So excited about finally having happy bunnies soon!!!


----------



## Kora (Jan 30, 2022)

Guy A said:


> The issue with these litterboxes is that they dig on them and then the filler and their poop from the litter box fall on the floor.



I’m not quite sure if someone responded to this part because I did only skim through, but a high rise litter box works great for rabbits that do this! This is very similar the one I use as an example, and mine works perfectly: IRIS Open Top Litter Box with Shield & Scoop, Dark Gray - Chewy.com


----------



## Guy A (Jan 31, 2022)

Thanks for your response. I already got them the a cat sized litter-box and the whole procedure became much less discomforting  

That's the one I got in case you're interested:









Туалет для кошек с бортиком средний синий 45х35х10 см, цвет Синий, цены, купить в интернет-магазине Четыре Лапы с быстрой доставкой


Туалет для кошек с бортиком средний синий 45х35х10 см, цвет Синий, купить в интернет зоомагазине Четыре Лапы: цены, фото, отзывы, характеристики. Бесплатная примерка, доставка от 1 часа домой или в магазин в Санкт-Петербурге, Москве и по России. Артикул 1035186.




4lapy.ru





Yesterday when visiting the website of the breeder from where I got my bunnies I saw that she also offers a very original solution for the litter-box. It's good in terms that the hay is separated from the litter area. But I am very much ok with my current solution. 









Сено для кроликов


Луговое, ароматное сено LOLO pets для кроликов от питомника "Царский кролик".




tsarskiykrolik.com


----------



## Guy A (Feb 1, 2022)

Hello!
This is where we’re at this evening. Will add some more toys in the near future and once they are well bonded in a couple of months, this will come one big playpen they will both hopefully share.
Anything I should add for the time being? Please let me know if I missed something


----------



## Diane R (Feb 1, 2022)

Guy A said:


> Hello!
> This is where we’re at this evening. Will add some more toys in the near future and once they are well bonded in a couple of months, this will come one big playpen they will both hopefully share.
> Anything I should add for the time being? Please let me know if I missed something


Good effort. Put the tunnel the other way so it has two exits. The little house should have two exits too. What did you get for the floor? Have they chewed it yet?


----------



## Fuz (Feb 1, 2022)

This is a significant improvement. Thrilled to see they are fine after the operations. I was also going to suggest you move the tunnel so the rabbit can run through. I see you're likely using it as a hidey area now, maybe when you have them in a single enclosure you can do this.


----------



## Guy A (Feb 1, 2022)

Diane R said:


> Good effort. Put the tunnel the other way so it has two exits. The little house should have two exits too. What did you get for the floor? Have they chewed it yet?



the tunnel is actually a house like the rectangle one and they both only have entrance/exit… the pet shop didn’t have houses with 2 exits 

should I try and cut additional wholes in both of them houses? How important is it to have them?

the floor is those puzzle mattes. Seems like an ok solution for now but let’s see


----------



## Diane R (Feb 1, 2022)

Guy A said:


> the tunnel is actually a house like the rectangle one and they both only have entrance/exit… the pet shop didn’t have houses with 2 exits
> 
> should I try and cut additional wholes in both of them houses? How important is it to have them?
> 
> the floor is those puzzle mattes. Seems like an ok solution for now but let’s see


I would try to cut out an additional exit, yes. Most bunnies don't like going into a space with only one exit - for obvious reasons.


----------



## Guy A (Feb 1, 2022)

Will do. Thx)

Someone wrote here something about adding blankets… should I? What are they for?


----------



## Diane R (Feb 1, 2022)

Guy A said:


> Will do. Thx)
> 
> Someone wrote here something about adding blankets… should I? What are they for?


I would wait until they are good with the litter box. Blankets are just to make them more comfortable.


----------



## Guy A (Feb 3, 2022)

Came home this evening and thought I’d bring one of my bunnies downstairs to be with me in the kitchen while I’m cooking.

So I went upstairs into Rex’s pen and picked him up in my hands, he pushed himself out of them and then I picked him up one more time but I saw in his eyes that he is not comfortable so I put him back on the floor and tried Minor but as he went straight to hide inside his tunnel I dropped the idea.

How often do you guys pick your bunnies up in your hands and in what situations?


----------



## Fuz (Feb 3, 2022)

You don't pick up a rabbit, most don't like this. Only some rabbits are comfortable with this, and it takes time to build that sort of trust. Also, they just had operations and they are still healing. Moving them and handling them is a bad idea. Leave them be.


----------



## Fuz (Feb 3, 2022)

If you want to interact with them, get down to their level on the floor. Right now, to them, you're a giant walking about. 

Pet them. Show them they're safe with you by giving a few treats here and there, rub their forehead area. No sudden movements, no carrying etc.


----------



## Guy A (Feb 4, 2022)

I must admit my first response to your comments were more negative than positive but just before going to bed I did as you said and Both came to and let me rub their foreheads and play with them. There is beauty in appreciating the needs of these lovely small creatures!


----------



## Blue eyes (Feb 4, 2022)

This page will further help understand how to go about bonding with your rabbits:








Bonding With Your Bunny


[ Tablet users, try the "web" version by clicking on "web" at the bottom of this page for a better, user-friendly format . ]



rabbitsindoors.weebly.com


----------



## Guy A (Feb 4, 2022)

Blue eyes said:


> This page will further help understand how to go about bonding with your rabbits:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sadly I cannot acces this website where I’m from


----------



## Blue eyes (Feb 4, 2022)

Guy A said:


> Sadly I cannot acces this website where I’m from


Bummer.

Let's see if this screen capture works.


----------



## Blue eyes (Feb 4, 2022)

Well, shoot. That "powered by weebly" image is in the way. Let me get the parts that are hidden by that...

GETTING A BUNNY OUT OF HIS CAGE:
I have found a common mistake made by new bunny owners regarding the handling of their new rabbit. Often this occurs when one gets a young (baby) bunny. Young rabbits are generally quite docile and compliant, so they tolerate being picked up and handled. But once they become older, this behavior is no longer tolerated. New owners can't understand why they have trouble picking up their rabbit out of its cage - especially after they seemed to have no problem doing so when bunny was younger. The reason is quite simple...

A rabbit needs to have a space of his own. He needs a place that is his sanctuary, his safe zone. That area ought to be his cage. It is the one place in which he ought to know and be confident that he will never be disturbed. By reaching into a cage and pulling bunny out, that safe zone is violated. For this reason, it is highly recommended that one _*never reach into the cage and grab the rabbit out of its cage*_ (except in emergency, of course). Far better it is to just open the cage door and allow bunny to hop out on his own.

Handling exercise time this way is far less stressful for your bunny. It allows him to decide whether or not he feels like coming out and exploring. It also allows him to hop back into his cage at will. This is important if he needs to potty, or gets hungry/thirsty, or just feels like returning to the security of his cage for any reason. *For bunny, just having the option of hopping back into the safety of his sanctuary is comforting and allows for a less stressful playtime.*

[and at bottom of page...]
Allowing a bunny's cage to be his place of refuge, his safe place, provides bunny with a sense of security and comfort. For this reason, I strongly recommend against using a bunny's cage for "time out" or punishment. Doing so defeats the idea of maintaining the cage as his pleasant place. The cage should not be used as a place of punishment.


----------



## Guy A (Feb 5, 2022)

I wish I had this information a while ago so I wouldn't have to break my head about what’s happening with my bunnies.

When complaining to my breeder a couple of months ago about them being wild and wanting to return them to her, her answer was that bunnies you don’t hold in your hands on a regular basis turn wild and that we should hold them much more often. She said nothing about the room being too large for them, even though I would ask her in advance before relocating them. In the personal card I got when buying them there were only instruction about feeding, holding, not washing and that’s it. I wonder why the article you shared or something similar to it is not given to each and every new bunny owner or potential owner so they know what they are heading to.

I was trying to write my posts here as honest as I can without filtering anything even though I understand it hurts most of you to read it. I very much hope that most bunny owners are more like you guys in terms of knowledge about their pets than me.

We are a family of 5 with our children being 6,4 and 2 y.o. My eldest asked for a bunny about 6 months ago, my wife speak about this to a friend and a couple of weeks later I am presented with a rabbit (photo attached). I go to the pet shop to buy a cage and some basic necessities. This rabbit wouldn’t mind at all us holding and playing with it but I had a strange feeling about this rabbit so next time at the pet shop I showed a picture of it to the personnel at the pet shop and they told me it’s a meat rabbit you grow in a farm and not a pet rabbit.

So we thought it’s probably not a good idea to keep it and started looking for rabbits online and see what we can do with the unwanted guest in our house. I found a breeder that seemed to have cute bunnies so I started talking to her and she agreed to collect my rabbit from me and in return I bought 2 baby rabbits from her. They were 2 months old when I got them. So this is pretty much my far from perfect/close to nightmare bunny history for you guys to have some background.


----------



## Fuz (Feb 5, 2022)

Hope someone adopted that adorable white rabbit. I've had two of those as pets, they are extremely playful, sweet and calm. I believe those are New Zealands.


----------



## JBun (Feb 6, 2022)

'Meat' rabbits actually can make perfectly good pet rabbits. The 'meat' rabbit, just means that type of breed was originally bred and raised for that purpose, but now that's not necessarily always the case. There are plenty of people that have them as pets, and they can make really good pets. It's too bad the pet shop person told you this, as it sounds like that rabbit may have had a really good temperament and could have made a good pet. Hopefully it finds it's way to a good pet home.

It's not unusual for new owners to be given all sorts of incorrect information, even here in the US, as rabbits have just started to become a more common house pet in the last few decades. So there can still be a lot of misinformation passed around out there. Hopefully that is getting better and owners can become better informed.

Some of that misinformation is about rabbits having to be held or they become wild. It's not actually the holding that helps them become used to people and less wild, but actually just being around people and learning they can be trusted and that the rabbit is safe around people. Some rabbits can get used to being held, but some detest it so much that if you try holding them at all, it can affect their abitlity to learn to trust you, and so they will learn to run away from you if you are always trying to pick them up and hold them. Especially adult rabbits. Baby rabbits will often be more tolerant of being held, but then can outgrow that tolerance once they become an adult rabbit. The way to earn a rabbits trust is to sit with them and give them a chance to learn to feel safe in your presence.


----------



## Guy A (Feb 6, 2022)

Blue eyes said:


> Well, shoot. That "powered by weebly" image is in the way. Let me get the parts that are hidden by that...
> 
> GETTING A BUNNY OUT OF HIS CAGE:
> I have found a common mistake made by new bunny owners regarding the handling of their new rabbit. Often this occurs when one gets a young (baby) bunny. Young rabbits are generally quite docile and compliant, so they tolerate being picked up and handled. But once they become older, this behavior is no longer tolerated. New owners can't understand why they have trouble picking up their rabbit out of its cage - especially after they seemed to have no problem doing so when bunny was younger. The reason is quite simple...
> ...



so I tried to implement some of the tips given here and it obvious that Minori (girl bunny) is much more comfortable in my presence that Rex is.

I came into Rex’s pen area with a book and just sat there ignoring him for a good 10-15 minutes. All this time his pen was open for him to go out and explore but instead he was making circles around and kind of tried to push me away with his nose.

Minori on the other hand was hopping on top of me and being very playful.

Also, when it’s play time there a room with a carpet I keep open for them to run and explore and when I am inside that room Rex doesn’t come in while Minori does with pleasure.

I watched a couple of videos on body language yesterday but I still can’t make much out of it for now. As in I am not sure when rubbing them if they are afraid or enjoying it. I also notice that they are both having their nap in their pens in a loaf position which is also a sign they still don’t feel very safe. Which is no surprise considering how we all mishandled them all this time


----------



## JBun (Feb 6, 2022)

Are you sure he wasn't trying to nose bonk you for pets or to get your attention for something else like food? Nose bonking is how rabbits let us know they want something from us without resulting in nipping to get our attention, which of course nose bonking is a much preferred method for them to communicate with us. 

If he was making circles around exploring, him nose bonking you could have also been him trying to say you were in the way of him trying to explore or run around. Which would mean he feels perfectly comfortable with you or he wouldn't approach you for a nose bonk at all. So it's not necessarily that he may not be comfortable with you. If he wasn't nose bonking you as a request for pets, then it could be that he was busy wantinng to do other things right then and was requesting that you move so he could get past you. 

Some rabbits are just very active and busy, and with these rabbits the best time to interact with them is when they've worn themselves out exploring and lay down for a rest, then that's when they will usually be more accepting of head rubs, but only if he's to the point where he feels comfortable with you approaching him. 

When he's laying down, slowly approach with your hand in his field of vision(not directly in front of his face or behind his head). I'll hold my hand near their nose so they can smell my hand first, then if they don't move away I'll give a gentle forehead scritch. If they stay there, I'll keep giving them gentle forehead rubs. If they move away from you, then they aren't quite ready yet.

If they hold still and don't move away when you try to give a gentle forehead rub, then it means they likely are accepting of it and want you to do it, especially if they then lay their head to the floor or push their head under your hand and hold it there. That's basically them saying 'yes, please' to head rubs. 

Head rubs usually means start on the forehead between the eyes. That's usually their prefered place to be petted. Some rabbits won't like you touching their ears, cheeks, or petting along their backs, especially around their rumps. So start with the forehead when your rabbits are ready and don't move away from a gentle scritch. If they do move away from your hand, it can mean they aren't ready yet, or can just mean they're busy looking around and you need to wait until they're tired out and are ready to settle down for a rest.

If your rabbit moves away from forehead rubs, then it doesn't mean he isn't starting to become comfortable with you. If he wasn't comfortabe with you there at all, he would more likely have stayed at the opposite end of the enclosure away from you, trying to keep away from you. But just the fact that he is hopping around exploring with you there and nose bonking you, means he is starting to feel comfortable in your presence and is comfortable enough to approach you and touch you with his nose. The more time you spend observing your rabbits and their behavior, the easier it will get to start understanding and interpreting their subtle body language. 

With Rex being reluctant to enter that room, some rabbits are just more cautious about new areas. Rabbits have established mapped out areas in their head, that they consider 'their' territory. Rex may consider this other room your territory and he is just waiting to feel more secure and safe before he gets up the courage to venture in. As he gets to be more comfortable with you and knows he can trust you, he will most likely start to feel safe enough to come into this other room. But then some rabbits are just more reluctant to explore new territory, even when they feel perfectly comfortable and safe.

A rabbit in loaf position doesn't necessarily mean they don't feel comfortable and safe. And them going to their pens to rest doesn't mean this either. Rabbits will go to their pens because they know this is their established territory, so it's their comfort zone. 

The resting loaf position can be due to a rabbits body temperature, and doesn't always have to do with how comfortable they feel. When a rabbit is feeling too warm and wanting to cool down, as long as they feel safe they will be more inclined to lay flopped out. A rabbit that is feeling cooler in body temperature, will be more inclined to bunny loaf to help conserve their heat, even if they feel safe in their environment. Then there are some rabbits that just prefer to bunny loaf no matter what, even if they are a bit warm, and even when they feel perfectly safe. I've had rabbits like that, that rarely ever liked to completely flop down, though they felt completely safe in their environment. So you'll get to know and understand your rabbits individual personalities and what is normal for them and what their preferences are.


----------



## TreasuredFriend (Feb 6, 2022)

@Guy A , your New Zealand White boy/girl reminds me of the lovable, sociable two NZW girls who shared our home for many years. They come into shelters often.


----------



## Guy A (Feb 8, 2022)

Good morning good people! 

A short update to let you all know how much we have improved ever since I joined this forum.
Both bunnies seem much more relaxed now and feel very comfortable with my presence letting me rub their foreheads almost at all times and don’t act hectic when I’m coming inside their pen area. 

Between each other they are good as well and the other day I witnessed Rex grooming Minori for the first time through the pen - it was really lovely  

habits are much better now with almost all poop going inside the box and what’s more satisfying was Minori going back to her litterbox during free walk time to do her business! I am also slowly letting them walk into new areas (rooms) in the house by keeping the doors open and seems like they are not doing their business elsewhere other than in their pen area. I hope I am not rushing here?

Other than that I am trying to figure out what the best diet for them is besides the hay which is the easiest part. I used to give them 2 table spoons of pellets per day (1 in the morning and 1 in the evening). They do love their pellets very much but I wonder if it’s not too much? Besides the weekend I am feeding them daily in the morning and evening so I will have to give them greens and fruits will pellets either in the morning or evening. Would it be ok if I exchange the pellets feeding in the morning or evening to only greens on a daily basis? Fruits will only be added every other day of course.

Thank you all for your support and guidance!!!


----------



## Diane R (Feb 8, 2022)

Guy A said:


> Good morning good people!
> 
> A short update to let you all know how much we have improved ever since I joined this forum.
> Both bunnies seem much more relaxed now and feel very comfortable with my presence letting me rub their foreheads almost at all times and don’t act hectic when I’m coming inside their pen area.
> ...


This all sounds very positive. Don't rush with any diet changes. Fruit is best avoided. Herbs are the best greens and they can have all of them apart from chives. Introduce slowly and only one green at a time, wait at least a week between introductions of new foods and start with very small amounts e.g. a few sprigs of basil. Don't give more than the size of their head per day. You can continue with the pellets for now, perhaps reduce to 1 tbsp a day when they are a bit older. Main thing is to make sure they eat at least their body size in hay.


----------



## Blue eyes (Feb 8, 2022)

Go very slow with allowing them more roaming space. Offering too much too quickly can lead to potty accidents. Potty accidents are difficult to undo because they may return to the same area of the accident to repeat. I'd keep them confined to no more than one room for a month or so before expanding to another room or area. Go slowly.

Hold off on fruits completely for now. Wait until they are accustomed to a daily diet that includes greens. 

Introducing greens should take several months. You'll only be introducing one type of green at a time. So one type will be offered for about a week before moving on to another type. This why it can take months to introduce a variety of greens. 

I'll copy/past some other sections of my website for you here...


----------



## Blue eyes (Feb 8, 2022)

This is from my site minus some of the photos...


----------



## Blue eyes (Feb 8, 2022)

And this on introducing greens...


----------



## Guy A (Mar 4, 2022)

Hello,

I am looking to reunite my bunnies this weekend and have them live together in a larger playpen. Should this be done gradually? I haven't seen any aggression between the two through play pen's during the time they were separated. 

Thank you.


----------



## odyssey~ (Mar 4, 2022)

Guy A said:


> Hello,
> 
> I am looking to reunite my bunnies this weekend and have them live together in a larger playpen. Should this be done gradually? I haven't seen any aggression between the two through play pen's during the time they were separated.
> 
> Thank you.



Bonding can be a long process for rabbits depending on the pair and should always be done after a lot of research 
I'm unsure on their genders but spaying/neuturing generally helps bring down hormone levels and makes the bond go smoothly.

Since you mentioned weebly was blocked, I'll leave a link to some YouTube videos on bonding bunnies that should help


----------



## Guy A (Mar 5, 2022)

Thank you. I have started the bonding process after watching her 3 videos and am now in step 1 where they are both in a box. The question I have is if this all should be done in one day? I mean all the steps or can it be done gradually? There is some violent behavior between them now while in the box and I am separating them all the time. Seems like they still haven’t figured out who’s the dominant one.


----------



## JBun (Mar 5, 2022)

It can be done more gradually, starting with first swapping items and putting them in each others area so they get used to the other rabbits scent. If they are acting aggressively towards one another, it might be best to slow down this bonding process and not put them right together just yet. At least until you've read up on more bonding info so you have a better idea of what you're doing and what behaviors to look out for and when it's essential to intervene so a fight doesn't break out. Because once a fight occurs, chances of having a successful bond ever, will decrease significantly. See if you can access some of the info from this link below. It gives a good description of different bonding techniques and the different behaviors to watch out for.









Bonding rabbits together







wabbitwiki.com





(and some videos of aggressive behaviors to watch out for)








BONDING Bunnies : CottonTails Rabbit & Guinea Pig Rescue


INTRODUCTION TO BONDING METHODS Most rabbits are territorial by nature. However, this does not mean that they all have to lead solitary lives. Rabbits that live in compatible pairs or occasionally even small groups will often benefit in many ways, including companionship, mental and physical...



cottontails-rescue.org.uk


----------



## Guy A (Mar 8, 2022)

We are in day 3 of bonding now and I am guessing things are not too bad. The main quest of dominance was in step 1 when they were in the box together and I thought Rex came up with the upper hand. There was one bad instance where Minori was kind of on top of Rex and I guess Rex bit her as there were some hairs on the surface. But besides this one bad instance it was mostly humping and chasing around. Now in day 3 it seems as if Minori is still giving it a push but Rex is definitely Boss even though he is mostly doing the grooming to her. Right now the only time there is aggression and chasing around is when it’s feeding time and I am wondering, will this stop once the bonding process is complete? Is it complete after 7 days or is there something specific I should be looking out for?


----------



## John Wick (Mar 8, 2022)

There is no set number of days/weeks/months for when the bonding process is "complete" -- it is simply complete when it is evident that the rabbits have a stable, secure relationship with no tension around the established hierarchy, and this relationship's security and stability remains when living in shared space with each other. My rule of thumb is 48 hours, uninterrupted, in semi-neutral space (i.e. shared living space) with no hint of issues = bonded. That is definitely far away from where you're at right now, but just to give you one parameter to gauge with when nearing the "end".

Ideally you want the aggression associated with food to dissolve away during the bonding process, and in most cases, it should. There are a few cases where a truly bonded pair has some tense interactions around food just due to the sheer influence of food anticipation and excitement, but it should not consistently veer into aggression and sustained chasing. 

It's only day 3, so extremely early in the bonding process. As JBun mentions, going slower is better than rushing. Unsure how long your sessions are currently, but personally I do not introduce litterboxes into the neutral bonding space so early on -- litterboxes can be an area of contention and the territorialness can impede bonding progress at times. The same logic goes for food -- while food can be a nice distractor/facilitator of neutral-to-positive interactions between the rabbits, if it's bringing up negative interactions, it may be wise to forgo it for now. If you're not seeing issues with litterboxes or food, that's fine. Everyone has slightly different approaches to bonding, but generally in these early stages, the goal is to maximize neutral-to-positive interactions and minimize negative interactions, especially when preventable.

Again, there are different methods as noted in many videos and in the links already provided. Attached is a graphic outlining another bonding process approach.


----------



## Guy A (Mar 12, 2022)

We are at day 7 of the bonding process now and i just introduced my bunnies back to their area. Please have a look and tell me if I should add or remove something.

Both of the bunnies have been well with one another these past few days in the neutral area. The only times there was chasing around was when it was feeding time but I tried to put them the food as fast as possible to minimize those negative interactions.

What I can observe now is that they are still both figuring out their hierarchy.

Rex was sprinting around just now from one house to the other and tried to hump Minori one time but Minori quickly ran away from him on top of one of the houses.

Also a few times they were both facing each other with their head down and once Minori groomed Rex’s head.

Right now they are both eating hay from the same litter box.

it’s been around an hour and Rex was the only one sprinting around for now.


----------



## Guy A (Mar 12, 2022)

I don’t know they seem pretty ok to me. Rex is obviously the dominant of the two. Minori is not trying to hump Rex. The only signed of dominance from Minori is when food is served and she is pushing her head into the plate.

letting them be for now.


----------



## Blue eyes (Mar 12, 2022)

Looks like a good space for them and they seem to be doing well so far from what you describe. 

Separate from the bonding, you may want to keep an eye on the pen edges. You have them setup in a way that prevents the rabbits from being able to push the pen out and escape. However, I have had a number of rabbit that liked to grab the bars with their teeth and _pull_ on them. If your rabbits are able to_ pull_ on them, that could allow them to escape. Just something to watch out for.


----------



## Guy A (May 21, 2022)

Hi Everyone, 

I decided to share probably a final post on this very friendly forum as we have decided to return our bunnies to their 'breeder' (or from whom we have bought them) tomorrow.

Very sadly but convinced it's the right thing to do, after the bunnies have just grown more distant as time passed. They actually have never been too connected but for a moment there I thought I was making progress. 

After investing much time trying to make them comfortable in their environment, their bonding - which probably wasn't done perfectly as they still run after each other every time it's feeding time. And still, it is their complete disaffection towards me or any of the family members that brought me to a point where I emotionally cannot care for them anymore.

It might be bad luck with this specific pair, or maybe even more likely with the breeder who sold them to us. For some reason it seems to me that she is selling her bunnies with the hope they will sooner or later be returned to her. Or maybe it's me and our household that is not ideal for these bunnies because of the small kids, or me not spending enough time with them. 

Well it doesn't matter now. 

I anyways want to thank you all for your support throughout this short journey and wish that my bunnies will live a happier life once back with their breeder.


----------



## Diane R (May 21, 2022)

Guy A said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> I decided to share probably a final post on this very friendly forum as we have decided to return our bunnies to their 'breeder' (or from whom we have bought them) tomorrow.
> 
> ...


Please don't return them, you were doing so well, getting them neutered and sorting out their environment and everything. We can help you with whatever problem you are having. It takes a long time for bunnies to learn to trust their humans, you've only had them for a few months. Please be patient. I fear for these poor bunnies if they are given back to the breeder.


----------



## Blue eyes (May 21, 2022)

You've given a champion's effort in trying to make everything work out -- from coming on the forum, affecting housing changes, getting them neutered, trying to bond them. That's quite a lot of learning especially for someone new to rabbits! I think you've gone above what many would be willing to do. 

At the same time, I can appreciate that rabbits are not the ideal family pet for a family with young children. They simply are not suited well for children who like to be hands-on. I had rabbits when my children were small but they were "my" pets. Perhaps there will be rabbits in your future.  If so, maybe you can get an already bonded and fixed pair from a rescue -- that will eliminate much of the difficulty you had with yours.

Are you under contract to return them to the breeder? If not, have you considered seeing if a suitable family may want them instead? 

Thank you for following up with us and letting us know what was happening. Best wishes for you and the rabbits!


----------

