# WARNING: GRAPHIC PHOTOS INSIDE...... was Surprise litter



## TinysMom (Feb 29, 2008)

Well - we have a new litter here. I knew Luna was due today but she's not been nesting - ignoring hay - staying small (sort of) like she was. I was trying to keep an eye on her - but I hadn't moved her to a big mama cage with all the protection stuff because I really was 99.9% sure she didn't take. She was even sweet like usual.

She had a litter tonight - we've found four so far. She had them on the wire - didn't nest - didn't pull fur - didn't really do much of anything. Even now - she's eating and drinking and protecting them now that we've set her up in a cat kennel overnight (so I can get her cage thoroughly cleaned out). 

We're gonna go looking to make sure we found all of them - they made it on the floor and squeaked - within 5 seconds Art & Robin were up to find them - and within 2 minutes they'd found all four....

One is sort of peanuty - a bit worried. The others are looking good. Definitely one broken in there....

I'm about to go check for more babies but honestly - I am shocked she had four as she's a smaller doe....and when I tried to palpate her I couldn't feel any.

Peg


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## BlueGiants (Feb 29, 2008)

What a surprise! Glad Art and Robin found them so quickly! Is she nursing them? Is this her first litter? Silly girl not letting you know she was "expecting"!


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## LadyBug (Feb 29, 2008)

sneaky girl! she wanted to suprise you! hope every thng goes well!


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## Orchid (Feb 29, 2008)

Congrats! I hope everything goes well!


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## maherwoman (Feb 29, 2008)

Oh wow! Luna, you stinker...you're supposed to let Mama KNOW that you've got babies!!

Glad you found them in time to warm them up and get things put together for them! 

:hug:


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## TinysMom (Mar 1, 2008)

Luna is a horrible mama - this is heartbreaking. Now I remember why I'm getting out of breeding....

She's attacked her babies so we had to take them from her and then take them to her for nursing. While we had her in the box with them a bit ago - she literally grabbed a baby by its leg (it is now gonna lose its leg) and pulled it out from under here- even with us there trying to hold her over them.

One baby has lost one ear and may lose its other ear. The one baby I just mentioned will lose its back leg. Another baby is gonna lose its tail. Then there is the peanut....which is probably just a runt but it is just so darn small.

Although the two litters Mochi is nursing are 15 days old, we decided to see if Mochi would nurse them. I think she's going to try and help us keep them alive. I hate to do this - I don't want to run the risk of her getting mastitis from this...but if she can keep them alive till Wednesday when Girly Girl has her babies...which I'm pretty sure she's gonna have some - then at least one of two of them might have a fighting chance.

I share all this mainly because I know there are folks on this forum or who will come to this forum later on - who will be thinking of breeding. Sometimes the idea to breed is so enticing because you think of the cute baby bunnies. When that happens - I want to direct them to THIS thread...where they can see how heartbreaking it can be too.....

Peg


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## MsBinky (Mar 1, 2008)

I'm sorry to hear that Peg. I was hoping it would be a thrill for you since they are your last breedings I hope they will make it. ray:


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## TinysMom (Mar 1, 2008)

*MsBinky wrote: *


> I'm sorry to hear that Peg. I was hoping it would be a thrill for you since they are your last breedings I hope they will make it. ray:


This is going to sound bad - but please don't take it that way.

First of all - I can't bring myself to cull animals....I know I should (as a breeder)...but I always have to hold out as long as I can and hope that they can make it.

But seeing the condition of some of these babies...I'm almost wishing I could cull...and I'm halfway hoping that a couple of them pass.

What is heartbreaking is that the one she destroyed the leg on....is a broken - my favorites....

This is just hurting so bad right now - I want them to pass - because I have a hard time dealing with disabled rabbits .... and I don't know what their quality of life will be like...but I also want them to make it...

I have one more litter due....I pray all goes well with that one.

Peg


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## maherwoman (Mar 1, 2008)

Oh Peg, that's just awful...I'm so sorry to hear that...:tears2:


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## undergunfire (Mar 1, 2008)

Oh, no . I hope everything turns out okay.

Even bunnies missing legs and ears can live long and happy lives. I am over here hoping they make it. If they do, maybe some forum members will just fall in love with them and want to adopt them .


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## maisy126 (Mar 1, 2008)

Awww, I hope they all will do okay

*TinysMom wrote: *


> ....and when I tried to palpate her I couldn't feel any.


Me and my mom tried to palp Sadie and we couldn't feel a thing either (she had 5 babies in her)


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## Maukin (Mar 1, 2008)

heartbreaking and definately eye opening for those of us that wish to breed.

Or at least me. That's really all I can speak for.

But this is what happens. Nature is not always nice. And those of us wishing to get into it, need to hear all of these stories so the rose colored glasses can be cracked to say the least.

Life is brutal. I've been in Agricuture for nigh on twenty three years and the only thing I can count on is that I will be seeing something soon that I have never seen before.

Just the way it is.

I hope that everything works out the way it needs too. Which is unfortunately not always the way we want it to.
:sigh:


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## TinysMom (Mar 1, 2008)

*Maukin wrote: *


> I hope that everything works out the way it needs too. Which is unfortunately not always the way we want it to.
> :sigh:


The one with the missing ear just passed away in Art's hand a matter of moments ago. I won't go into details except to say that you don't want to hear babies cry....

I probably should have put it down....but we wanted to give it every chance. Even at the end...Art had a qtip w/ warm water and was moistening its lips to see if we could get that in it. I use the qtip and sort of paint the lips to see if I can get them to lick it off...

I suspect the peanut will go next. The one with the leg that got bit still has the leg attached....but it looks horrid. Still yet, it appears to be able to eat. Somewhere I recently saw a video abouta rabbit that had lost a leg to a predator and it showed the rabbit playing. The rabbit still had a pretty decent life. Because of that video - we're going to try to give this one a chance...for now. 

Yeah - these are the stories most breeders don't want to hear - they don't want to share. We want to hear everything is wonderful.....but it isn't. 

I love Luna - but I'm very upset with the way she treated her babies...which is why Mochi is being used to feed them for now. 

There is one in the litter who might be strong enough to make it - if so -I'm hoping to add it to Girly Girl's litter on Wednesday...

I'll be so glad when all my litters are done.....I hate times like this.

Peg


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## undergunfire (Mar 1, 2008)

Can't the baby with the bad leg be brought to the vet or something? What can you do for it?

At this point...is it kind of like a "fish"? When a fish is sick, you can't exactly take it to the vet...and if you do....what can the vet do?

So is this baby like a "sick fish" in a sense? I mean...the vet can't "make him go sleepy" and amputate the leg.


It's confusing . I hope the baby with the bad leg makes it. You haven't talked about him much, but I find myself attached to him because of his story.


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## TinysMom (Mar 1, 2008)

*undergunfire wrote: *


> Can't the baby with the bad leg be brought to the vet or something? What can you do for it?
> 
> At this point...is it kind of like a "fish"? When a fish is sick, you can't exactly take it to the vet...and if you do....what can the vet do?
> 
> ...


Oh Amy...I love your tender heart. 

The baby is less than 48 hours old. It has no fur. It weighs probably less than an ounce. The vet probably can't give it painkiller beause a drop would be too much. I highly doubt a vet could sew its leg back on without causing it to bleed to death.

Art & Robin wouldn't let me look at the baby last night after this happened. I got a glimpse of it today but couldn't bring myself to look at it or touch it. The leg is still attached...sorta...by kinda a blood clot. I'd take a photo of it - but it would be too gruesome to show on the forum - even with a warning on it.

Most breeders I know would say, 'Its not gonna make it" and put the baby down immediately. I have thought about it - I have considered it at great length. The last baby who got its leg bitten badly (not quite like this) didn't make it after a couple of days.

The humane thing to do is probably to put it down and not let it suffer. If it was crying or in obvious pain - I would do that (it cried at the time but then it stopped crying to nurse on Mochi). If Mochi was refusing to nurse it - I would consider it because she might know more than I do....but she's willing to let it nurse and it is trying to nurse.

The thing is - I saw a video of a three legged rabbit - and I've heard of others who have them. Those rabbits have a "different" life - but a good life. 

I have to give the baby a chance at life.....I just have to. I don't want to - its hard for me to see it....its hard for me to deal with it. I want to throw up when I see it.

But since it does not appear to be in pain and since it appears to be getting some food....I will continue to try and give it a fighting chance.

But my guess is - the odds of survival are about 5%.....maybe less. 

Peg


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## undergunfire (Mar 2, 2008)

Is the baby full? I can understand how you don't want to look at it...I would feel the same way at this stage.

I know it's odd chance, but if the baby survives...will the leg eventually fall off or will it have to go to the vet to have it amputated?


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## NZminilops (Mar 2, 2008)

Oh man, how heartbreaking, even if that baby survived, it would have a sever handicap, which I understand is hard for you to deal with.

I hope that whatever needs to happen, happens. I couldn't cull an animal either, way too hard for me, so if that baby needs to pass, I hope that it happens naturally and not too horribly. 

I have a soft spot for disabled bunnies, wish I was there to give him a gentle stroke on the head.


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## maherwoman (Mar 2, 2008)

Oh Peg...how horrible...I'm praying for you and the babies...


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## TinysMom (Mar 2, 2008)

*undergunfire wrote: *


> Is the baby full? I can understand how you don't want to look at it...I would feel the same way at this stage.
> 
> I know it's odd chance, but if the baby survives...will the leg eventually fall off or will it have to go to the vet to have it amputated?


If the baby makes it to about 4 weeks or so - I will take it to the vet at that point and see what would have to be done. I'm thinking it would have to be amputated and I know the local vet won't do it - I'm not sure if the vet 70 miles away will do it. It might require a trip to the vet in San Antonio. :X

I'm thinking that once the vet sees it at that point - we could make a decision of when to amputate the leg. I would want the baby to be fully weaned and not have intestional issues before it goes under for surgery. I think that to do surgery before the baby is weaned, etc. would only be putting the baby's life further at risk.

The heartbreaking part for me is - we're talking about surgery I really can't afford most likely....although if I have time to save up for it - maybe we could do it....along with the trip to San Antonio (which runs about $70 for gas round trip). 

I'm thinking about if the baby makes it a few more days - taking pictures of it and then emailing them to the vet in San Antonio (along with video or something) of the baby and asking for an over the phone consult so that might save me ONE trip - basically so the vet could see things enough to say, "Yes...bring the baby in and let me look at it".

Once again - for those thinking of breeding....these are the freak things that "can" happen. The things that can break your heart - that can make you face decisions you don't want to face....like do I put this baby down or do I not put this baby down?

Also - I want to say that I would not criticize breeders that would put this baby down....because many times that would be the KINDEST thing to do. I don't know if what I'm doing is the best thing for the baby....

The baby isn't getting "full" at its feedings - but it is getting enough to make it to another feeding....so things right now are touch and go.

The runt isn't doing well and I suspect we'll lose it in the next day or so. I thought we were going to lose it earlier today.

Peg


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## Bo B Bunny (Mar 2, 2008)

Oh no 

I've been so self absorbed and busy this weekend, I had no idea this was all going on. I'm so sorry, Peg. I know this is so difficult on you and them.


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## undergunfire (Mar 2, 2008)

I am glad that the baby with the bad leg is still alive. I was scared to read this thread, just incase he had passed.

Surgery would be expensive, but it would be something that has to be done if the baby makes it to that point. I'll try to help as much as I can. Maybe I could sew enough hammock sets on Ebay?!


ray:


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## Leaf (Mar 2, 2008)

Aww Peg, I'm so sorry!

I'm rooting for you guys, and I trust that you'll make the best decisions. If you need vetting help with the ones leg let me know -

I have a feeling my two boys came from a similarly torn situation, cull or not. 

If your little guy can make it to an age to be vetted, it's meant to be. Just look at Holiday & Fiesta - they have their moments but are spunky, happy innocent ones that are loved and cherished.


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## TinysMom (Mar 2, 2008)

*undergunfire wrote: *


> I am glad that the baby with the bad leg is still alive. I was scared to read this thread, just incase he had passed.
> 
> Surgery would be expensive, but it would be something that has to be done if the baby makes it to that point. I'll try to help as much as I can. Maybe I could sew enough hammock sets on Ebay?!
> 
> ...


Amy - thank you for the offer - but to be honest with you - I feel very strongly as a breeder - that I created them - it is my responsibility to take care of them. 

I'm sure that whatever needs to be done probably will be late enough that I can save up for it and pay for it. I don't think it will be something that can be done for at least the next 6-8 weeks as we need to get the baby to the point where it is weaned.

And really - I honestly don't think its gonna make it. I don't want to sound "down"...but I just don't think it has a good chance.

Amy - I will PM you if either of the babies pass so you'll know before you read the thread...

Peg


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## TinysMom (Mar 2, 2008)

Leaf - thank you for your post....I have to say - I did cull some rabbits that were born with flipper legs the same day they were born. I knew they could not thrive and it appeared as though they might have other genetic issues (some would call them "Max Factor" babies...which I won't go into here - it happens mainly in the dwarf breeds I think). That was one of the hardest decisions I had to make....and it was the whole litter too. I never rebred that doe or buck.

Here are some "ok" photos - I'm going to follow this post with the "not so nice" photos...

The runt with the healthiest one....the runt keeps getting "just enough" to keep going but never enough to be full. I keep thinking, "I should put this one down - I've never had one this small survive"....but then I watch it latch onto Mochi and suck and start to get some milk in it and think, "I can't give up yet." 




This is the broken black baby - it looks ok from this angle - the next post will show the leg.




This is the healthiest one. This is the only one I think will survive - but then again - the broken black one got a good nursing in spite of its almost-missing leg. 





*WARNING......WARNING.....WARNING...

THE NEXT POST WILL HAVE SOME MORE GRAPHIC PHOTOS...

PEG
*


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## TinysMom (Mar 2, 2008)

WARNING - GRAPHIC PHOTOS ARE IN THIS POST....

Let me start out by saying that Robin and Art would not let me see the bunny when this first happened. Today is the first time I really looked at it. Mama almost severed the leg - we thought it would have fallen off by now. We're debating if we should put a string around the leg to keep gangarene from going into the baby or what....its hard to know what to do with a baby this young/small.










I don't handle things like this well. I want this baby to live - but that means it would have to live here - and I don't handle handicaps well. So in a way - I wish this baby would pass away if it means it wouldn't have a good quality of life.

We need to figure out what to do right now besides seeing it go from moment to moment.

Oh - and Mochi is willingly nursing these three - we take her to them 3-4 times per day because they're not really getting overly full. She is also cleaning them and stuff and taking good care of them.

Peg


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## Leaf (Mar 2, 2008)

Peg,

I dub him Baobab (the african tree of life).

If the bone is disconnected I would go ahead and tie the leg off inbetween the bone sections.

Like I tell my friend who has a Great Dane I'm in love with - put him in a box and send him my way. 

Honestly though, I wish YOU peace of mind.

Good luck with the little one!

I'm off to work now, but you guys will be in my thoughts.

((hugs))


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## TinysMom (Mar 2, 2008)

*Leaf wrote: *


> Peg,
> 
> I dub him Baobab (the african tree of life).
> 
> ...


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## Spring (Mar 2, 2008)

I wish the baby the best, and I wish you the best too Peg! What ever happens, happens I guess. :?

I can't offer any advice, but wish the best in whatever happens. In the case of the baby making it, I found an article about a three legged bunny that you might like to read? Gives a bit of a description about life with a three legged bunny.

http://www.rabbitcare.org/yoodie.htm

:hugsquish:


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## TinysMom (Mar 3, 2008)

Well - I'm trying to figure out what to update here and what to not update. I don't want to go into too much detail because I'm not trying to say folks should do things at home - yet the way the baby's leg was turning black...we were at a point where something had to be done.

The baby has a better chance of survival now - _*a much better chance.*_

I spoke with Zin - who spoke with her vet (imagine that - she can contact her vet after hours - I can't)....and then after discussing this with the vet (who was like, "All this fuss over a rabbit...just put it down...") she talked to Robin and Art as they looked at the baby and they folllowed the vet's instructions.

THANK YOU ZIN! Her vet may kill her someday for bugging him at home on a Sunday...but thats ok - if it saved this baby's life... it is worth it. I think the general consensus was that speed was of the essence with the way the baby's leg was going black. We couldn't risk infection going into the baby's body.

I really can't and won't go into details except to say that we no longer worry about the baby's life being in danger from infection. (In other words - the leg was removed following the vet's instructions). Its being treated with triple antibiotic cream tonight and in the morning it will be getting "NuSkin" (I hope I put that right) on it....and we're really hoping it will make it.

Almost everyone Zin spoke with (vet tech, vet, etc) said, "Put the baby down." Seriously, I did consider it - even before talking with Zin. But I just couldn't play God and put the baby down....not when the baby was nursing and doing fairly well otherwise.

The good news is - if I understood Zin right - the vet had this happen before when he was raising rabbits - and he did the same thing that we are doing - and the rabbit survived.

So that is tonight's update....

Peg

Edited to add: If the baby survives - it will probably get a bondmate to live with and they'll both be neutered and that way the baby will have someone to help groom it, etc.


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## GoinBackToCali (Mar 3, 2008)

Without going into too much detail.. Zin can call her vet at home on a Sunday, because Zin and the vet use to be really, really close, back when I was still a hot chick, and he had a flat tummy..LOL

But I am stoked the baby is doing better..


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## undergunfire (Mar 3, 2008)

I am sooo happy things are now looking good for this baby. His pictures are adorable and the leg doesn't gross me out at all, actually.

You did what you had to do and I honestly don't think it was a horrible thing that you did. If I was in the same situation...I would have done everything possible to save the babies life. I *hug* you for that!

I wish I could adopt him if he makes it . I call him a "he" because I have a feeling it's a boy...lol. I think his name should be "Aslan" from the Lion in Narnia....lots of strenghth and courage...reborn....seems like a great name!


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## Spring (Mar 3, 2008)

I'm really pulling for this baby. You did the right thing Peg, I'd do the same thing if I was in that situation.

Come on little baby!


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## TinysMom (Mar 3, 2008)

I just checked the baby - and it was mostly sleeping but it lifted its head when it felt the nesting stuff move and it looked....alert (for a sleeping baby) - not in any distress or pain. It was sort of like, "Is it time to nurse yet?" and then settled back down to sleeping.

I wanted to check and make sure it hadn't gone into shock or anything - but it was nice and warm and just...acting like other babies would at that age.

So here's hoping....

Peg


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## RunnyBabbitRabbitry (Mar 3, 2008)

I cannot say much about a baby losing its leg. I can say that I have an adult rabbit here who lost her leg this past summer to an awful animal attack. We had an awful time finding a vet who would even look at it, they all say "put her down", like you said in the earlier posts. Well we just couldn't do it, there was no need to in our minds. She is a happy, healthy doe but her leg is gone - why should she die? So we did finally talk to a vet who told us how to handle it and let me say, I too do not deal well with anything like that. Well we did what we were told. Now she is as healthy as she was to begin with. We let her run in the yard somedays when we are out. Sometimes it is hard to remember that she is missing a leg the way she gets around. She was a grand champion show rabbit, now she is a loving pet. 

So I wish you luck with your baby. I know that if it does make it, it will not live a lesser quality of life, at least in my opinion.


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## ~Bracon~ (Mar 3, 2008)

:upsidedown:Glad to hear everythings going ok with the kits, looking forward to seeing some more pics soon


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## Becca (Mar 3, 2008)

What does broken mean?
People will probably think i am stupid saying that but I have actually no idea.


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## TinysMom (Mar 3, 2008)

*BabyBunnies wrote: *


> What does broken mean?
> People will probably think i am stupid saying that but I have actually no idea.


You might call them "Butterfly" rabbits there in the UK. The color pattern is broken up by white.

Here are a couple of pictures of broken rabbits:

Arya as a little girl




Triad - my best buck for breeding brokens




One parent must be a broken to get brokens in a litter.

Peg


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## TinysMom (Mar 3, 2008)

The runt baby died during the night. The other two babies remaining got fed some - not nearly enough - but some.

Girly Girl is acting like she might give birth today or tomorrow.....she feels like she has a lot of babies.

I will probably put these babies with her litter (depending upon how big her litter is).

Peg


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## Bo B Bunny (Mar 3, 2008)

Oh peg, I'm so sorry.

I know I couldn't deal with this kind of thing. I'll never be a breeder. Your heart must be breaking.


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## TinysMom (Mar 3, 2008)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> Oh peg, I'm so sorry.
> 
> I know I couldn't deal with this kind of thing. I'll never be a breeder. Your heart must be breaking.


I knew we'd most likely lose the runt....so I'm ok. The one with the missing leg....that's gonna be tough if we lose it. 

I've had times when we had issues and everytime I'd go to check the nests - we'd lost another baby or two (first time moms usually). It got to the point where I would ask Art to check the nestboxes first and remove the dead babies. 

People think breeding is "fun" - that it is all about cute babies. But it isn't. 

I remember one time a couple of years ago - there were some girls on the forum from New England that bred French lops....and they were like, "oh .... we had 8 babies and the whole litter is showable.." - mind you - this was on day 3 or something. They were going by color only. 

I think people think you breed two show rabbits and you're gonna get a bunch of showable babies.

Well - if you only look at color - you might. But I've heard top breeders say that if you get on in a litter that is truly "show quality"....you're doing good. (This was for lionheads). The others may be "showable" meaning they don't have obvious faults like white toenails or whatever...but that doesn't mean that they are show quality - it more likely means they are brood quality...good for breeding.

Peg


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## polly (Mar 3, 2008)

Oh Peg I am so sorry i haven't been in this thread since the start:hug::hugsquish:. It sucks I hope the little one makes it. 

You are right it is a very good example of how breeding isn't all fluffy bunnies!! Its downright hard work and can be so heartbreaking too. Big respect to you for putting this on the board cause I know what a tough call it can be. This is a good educational lesson for anyone who is a new breeder or for anyone thinking about breeding.


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## BSAR (Mar 3, 2008)

ray:ray:I will keep this little baby in my thoughts and prayers. I hope that this little one can make it and lead a happy normal life. i will also keep the other baby in my thoughts and prayers as well. by the way how old are they? are they four days old or five?



ray:


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## BlueGiants (Mar 3, 2008)

Awww geewhiz Peg. I'm so sorry you're having so much trouble with this litter. I'll keep the little one with the bad leg in my prayers. Yeah, breeding rabbits is truely a lot of work. And it can be heartbreaking. I'm keeping you in my prayers too. ray:


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## TinysMom (Mar 4, 2008)

As of a bit ago - the baby was still alive. The two babies that are left aren't getting much nursing - its like they get enough to last till the next feeding - but that is it.

Girly Girl is nesting and I think her milk would be better suited for them based on their age - but she feels HUGE....here's hoping that she can take over caring for them.

I'm about to go help Robin w/ getting Mochi to nurse them and then I'm heading to bed.....will update in the a.m.

Peg


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## TinysMom (Mar 4, 2008)

We lost the black one....we only have one left from the litter....

Peg


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## TinysMom (Mar 4, 2008)

Well - the little one is still alive - but we do not expect it to survive the night. It is just too weak to nurse no matter what we try.

Its comfortable for now in the nest and we're trying to keep it warm - it is just trying to go to sleep....


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## Bo B Bunny (Mar 4, 2008)

:tears2:

Now I truly am depressed.

I'm sorry, Peg.


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## GoinBackToCali (Mar 4, 2008)

I went to bed early, I am sorry I wasn't there...


I am so sorry Peg.


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## TinysMom (Mar 4, 2008)

*GoinBackToCali wrote: *


> I went to bed early, I am sorry I wasn't there...
> 
> 
> I am so sorry Peg.


Don't worry about it.....life (and death) happens.

The little one passed away - it was in Robin's hands at the time. She sent me to bed to get some sleep and said she could handle it.

So the litter is all offically at Rainbow Bridge...

When I started this whole thread - I was hoping it would be a celebration of life...not a chronicle of their passing. But sometimes - that's just the way things happen.

I'm so sorry....

Peg


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## Leaf (Mar 4, 2008)

I don't quite know how to make a response here.

I am so sorry for the heartache you endured, but I am also glad you allowed all of us to be a part of it all.



((hugs))


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## Becca (Mar 4, 2008)

It doesn't come up very clear what the writing says is
_There are no words
of sympathy to ease
the loss you bear
but you may find some comfort
in the thought that others care.


_


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## Bo B Bunny (Mar 4, 2008)

Peg, maybe this litter was sent to you for confirmation that you don't want to breed and go through those heartaches anymore.Maybe Tiny is working on you still! He taughtyou a lot... 

Maybe that was their purpose and once fulfilled - they got to go on to better things.

We, of course are saddened but I hold hope that when we leave here, we go someplace better.


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## BlueGiants (Mar 4, 2008)

I'm truely sorry Peg... :sad:


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## maherwoman (Mar 4, 2008)

Oh Peg...that's so awful...you are in my thoughts and prayers...

Please let me know if you need someone to talk to...my phone is still open to you, ya know. 

:hug:


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## RexyRex (Mar 4, 2008)

:rip: I'm sorry you lost them all.


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## BSAR (Mar 4, 2008)

Omg! I feel so bad. I forgot to pray for them. I am so increibly sorry peg. may they rest in peace.:bunnyangel::nerves1


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## GoinBackToCali (Mar 4, 2008)

I am sorry Peg...

But it is a testement as to the fight left in the lil 3 legged baby.. he outlasted them all.

Call me if you need me..I will be on the plane in like 2 hours.. it's 3:30 here, so if I don't answer, I will call you back after I get settled..

Zin


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## Bramblerose (Mar 4, 2008)

I'm so sorry Peg, you tried so hard, I'm just so sorry.

I had a tough time reading this thread, it reminded me of something I had to do and didn't want to, when a doe had maimed her entire litter. My DH was at work, would be hours before he came home, and I couldn't let them wait like that. It was horrible, I still cringe when I think about it, I still have a real problem with does who hurt their babies, it makes me ill. It is part of breeding though, and people should know that up front, this a sad but educational thread.

I feel badly for you, you just can't seem to get a break lately, I hope it gets better from here on out.


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## TinysMom (Mar 4, 2008)

*Bramblerose wrote: *


> I'm so sorry Peg, you tried so hard, I'm just so sorry.
> 
> I had a tough time reading this thread, it reminded me of something I had to do and didn't want to, when a doe had maimed her entire litter. My DH was at work, would be hours before he came home, and I couldn't let them wait like that. It was horrible, I still cringe when I think about it, I still have a real problem with does who hurt their babies, it makes me ill. It is part of breeding though, and people should know that up front, this a sad but educational thread.
> 
> I feel badly for you, you just can't seem to get a break lately, I hope it gets better from here on out.


It is so hard - isn't it? 

Cordelia killed some in her first litter - but when I took her babies to her and then gave them to her after about 10 or 12 days - she was a great mama.

I rebred her....she killed them again at first and/or maimed them. I fostered them out and like 4 days later she came down with head tilt. Wow....it makes me wonder sometimes when a doe maims a litter now if anything is wrong with her.

I once had to put down a whole litter shortly after birth. (They were worse than Holiday and Fiesta). It was a horrible thing - I mean - it was done painlessly and humanely....but I cried.

I have one last litter left....due tonight/tomorrow. I bred Girly Girl the morning that Tiny died....and then I didn't get around to breeding a second doe because of the shock of his death, etc.

I'm praying Girly Girl's litter is ok and she's ok. I don't know how much more stress I can take from breeding. 

I'm so glad I'm getting out of breeding. I'm so glad I can just enjoy my animals as pets and not spend 31 days after breeding a girl wondering, "Did I do the right thing?"

Peg


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## BSAR (Mar 5, 2008)

What is maiming?


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## maherwoman (Mar 5, 2008)

In general, the term "maiming" refers to when one person or animal disfigures another...but I think in this case, in breeding, it refers to when a mother animal overgrooms a baby, and in the process chews off an ear, or other body part. Basically, overgrooming to the disfigurement of the kit.


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## TinysMom (Mar 5, 2008)

Rosie gave a great answer - I googled "definition of maim" and here is some of what came up:

Definitions of *maim* on the Web:
[size="-1"][*]Take away the full or partial use of a limb by injury.
www.godonthe.net/dictionary/m.html[/size][size="-1"][*]to injure or hurt.
www.davis.k12.ut.us/burton/6thpettegramstore.html[/size][size="-1"][*]injure or wound seriously and leave permanent disfiguration or mutilation; "people were maimed by the explosion" 
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn[/size][size="-1"][*]Mutilation or maiming is an act or physical injury that degrades the appearance or function of the (human) body, usually without causing death. 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maim[/size]


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