# Can you please help me? :'0(



## MsBinky (Jul 29, 2007)

Hi everyone,

I was referred to you guys by a fellow bunny lover andI hope you can help me...

I have a 4 year-old bunny is preggy. It was an accident, I didn't wait long enough after the male was castrated before letting them play together. She should be at about 20 or 21 days now. I have palpated her and think I have felt something though I do not know if she will actually have babies. All was going well, yesterday she made her nest. However, today I let her play a bit with Bam-Bam because they were lonely and when I came to separate them, I noticed that Wiggles had some blood on her bum. I checked out the cage and found spots of blood. I have been a bit panicked since and i have tried calling every vet imaginable but none are open on Sundays. I'm really scared.

Will she be alright? Is she losing the babies? Is it a hemorrhage? 

I appreciate any help I can get!


----------



## Flashy (Jul 29, 2007)

Oh dear.

Welcome to the forum, I just wish it was under better circumstances.

You do need to get your rabbit to a vet asap, an emergency one will probably be the only way to do it.

It could be some sort of bizarre miscarriage (we had this when our bun tried to reabsorb her litter too late), so might have somehow be triggered into early labour and be having some problems, or maybe she has uterine cancer or many other possibilities, none of which are pleasant.

Please try to get her to a vet.

In the meantime, I would say keep her warm, and keep her hydrated and make sure she is eating (if she isn't try to help her with maybe syringe feeding or her favourite fresh foods or something)

How is she in herself? Eating? Drinking? Pooing? Weeing?

Hang in there, please keep us updated.


----------



## Pipp (Jul 29, 2007)

Where are you located? 

I'll move this to The Rabbitry, one of the breeders may have some good advice. 

Has the bunny been bred before? A first time mom at four is a dangerous situation to begin with, they're considered to old to be bred for the first time at just over a year old.

I'm not sure how much an emergency vet can do. She'll probably need an emergency spay, soa rabbit savvy vet is pretty important. If she's only 21 days or so, at least the chances of her having a stuck kit are less than if she was full term. 

As noted, keep her warm, watch for hergetting pale and lethargic. Keep her hydrated. 

Hopefullysome breeders are on line with more seasoned advice.



sas ray:


----------



## MsBinky (Jul 29, 2007)

Hi, ty for the welcome, I too wish it had been in better circumstances. Lol.

I tried every vet in the phone book that deals with bunnies. I am in Montreal and I think it is the worst place to own a bunny! I agree that it seems to be a miscarriage. I'll be honest, I do not care much if she has no babies, but I really want her to be okay. This bun in particular is very special to me. I am keeping an eye on her and she was eating and drinking but now she is just lying down. I know that her eyes were yucky so I cleaned them out. I will keep you updated.

Thank you:bigtears:


----------



## polly (Jul 29, 2007)

Has your rabbit ever had babies before? if she hasn't she is really to old to have a litter and the babies will probably be dead and there is a chance your girl won't have an easy time if a baby gets stuck then it can be life and death for you r bun, I'm sure others will tell you the same. Keep a close eye on her tonight and as Tracy said make sure she is pooing peeing eatng and drinking. 

Personally if it was me i would take her to a vet first thing in the morning and get her checked out.

Sorry if it sounds harsh i hope she will be ok. Keep us updated


----------



## MsBinky (Jul 29, 2007)

Hi Pipp,

Yes unfortunately it is her first time. I had wanted to have her spayed and abort but the vet refused, saying it was too dangerous at her age and that he saw no reason why she couldn't have her kits. I have never been convinced but I was hoping for the best. I am from Montreal. My regular vet does check ups and minor things but doesn't do operations though he is such a nice man that I wish he did. I have been in contact with another vet who deals with exotic animals but, being from Montreal, rabbits are rarely taken in other than from the SPCA. I am keeping a very close eye on her but I feel so helpless without a vet to take her to. Thank you so much for posting in the Rabbitry section. I didn't want to post all over the place, especially it being my first time here. Lol. A breeder may indeed have an answer as I am sure one of them must have dealt with a bleeding bunny at some point,

Thank you so much for all your help!


----------



## Flashy (Jul 29, 2007)

I think you were very sensible to ask for a spay. Are you sure that that vet knows about bunnies? Because any vet that knows anything about rabbits would know that it is dangerous for a bunny to be a first time mum after the age of one.

Most likely now, as Pipp says, if the vets did anything, it would be an emergency spay, but they might also ultrasound her to see if they could figure out what is going on first.

I urge you to get her to a decent rabbit savvy vet asap, if that is tomorrow morning then so be it, but she needs to be seen.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed.


----------



## TinysMom (Jul 29, 2007)

I'm guessing that she is losing the babies - as a breeder, I've been fortunate and never had that happen.

I would definitely take her in to see your vet first thing in the morning if you can't get her seen today. Here are some things I would want to talk to him about (knowing he won't do a spay)...

a. Can he/she palpate the rabbit to see if there are any babies?

b. Can he/she give oxytocin to make sure that she has any babies that she still might have? (I'm not sure if that is wise - I'm going to PM Randy and Pam Nock to see if they can chime in on that one).

c. Can you give her antibiotics to keep her from having an infection if she has lost the kits or aborted them?

I think that the main thing to do right now is to keep her warm and hydrated and it would be great if she would eat some too...but especially keep her drinking some fluids.

I wish I had better advice or more advice for you. Please keep us updated.

Peg


----------



## Pipp (Jul 29, 2007)

Our Quebec vet list seems to be missing, but here's a few, if you didn't see this elsewhere...



Dr.Martine Jobin
Hopital Veterinaire des Seigneuries 
387 Samuel-de-Champlain, 
*Boucherville,* PQ 
Phone: 450-449-7277


Dr. Jean Gauvin
Clinique VÃ©tÃ©rinaire Lachine 
1295 Provost
*Lachine*, PQ H8S 1N7 
Phone: 514-634-4190 / Fax: 514-634-8754 
http://www.cliniqueveterinairelachine.com


Hopital Veterinare Pour Oiseaux et Animaux Exotiques. 
6090 Sherbrooke Ouest
*Montreal*, PQ
Phone: 514-486-5258


Hopital pour Oiseaux et Animaux Exotiques
4580 Chemin Chambly
*St. Hubert*, PQ
Phone: 450-443-1461


----------



## Starlight Rabbitry (Jul 29, 2007)

This is not meant to sound stupid ... just covering all the bases. Are you positive it is blood and not just red urine? How much blood? A little may not be a cause for worry however, a lot means that she could be hemorraging (sp). Is she having contractions? 

I definitely am telling you that if you are sure it is blood, I would bring her to the vet tomorrow morning. 

Keep us posted. ray:

Sharon


----------



## MsBinky (Jul 29, 2007)

Hi guys,

Thank you so much for everything. I have called all those vets. All are closed. I was however transferred to the DMV centre but they do not deal with exotic animals. She has kept my phone number and a technician will call me asap. I am would obviously have taken her to the vet if one had been opened. Grrrrrrrrr I so dislike Montreal for that. Lol. 

I am positive that it was blood. I triple checked. There is not a lot though or I'd be in the ER myself, my heart unable to deal with panick at this point. Lol. I am terrified of her hemorrhaging which is my real concern. I am less concerned if she loses the babies. (I don't want to be mean but her health is my priority). 

I hope to get her to the vet tomorrow morning if possible. I myself have an emergency health situation so hopefully they won't coincide. I think I'd still choose the bunny over me though. Lol. I would be but my fiance will notice and probably won't have it that way. Grrr. 

I'm so scared and I feel terribly hopeless. Plus I am so so so mad at myself for letting this happen. I had Bam-Bam neutered but after my mother-in-law repeatedly complained about the cages and put him and Wiggles together after she and my fiance convinced me that I must have misunderstood about having to keep Bam-Bam away for a month. * Hits head against the wall repeatedly * I'll bawl my eyes out terribly if something were to happen to her.


----------



## MsBinky (Jul 29, 2007)

Btw, the 2 vets that I called that supposedly 'know' about bunnies both told me they never heard of age being a factor. Yeh right. :XI was told bunnies are not like guinea pigs and as long as she is in good health she'll be okay. One told me that if she got into trouble we could do an emergency caesarean. But only once there were signs of trouble. Grrr. Well they are closed today anyway. *Sigh*

Oh the tech just called

She says that I can take her to Lachine if there is a change so that they can stabilize her. They do not know much about bunnies but they would do anything possible to help. She also says that she is not too concerned because Wiggles is eating and moving. She told me to call my vet tomorrow morning to check and see what is going on with the babies and all that but as long as there are no contractions she should be okay.

Again, thank you.


----------



## Starlight Rabbitry (Jul 29, 2007)

If she is eating and drinking and acting like herself...this is a good sign. Just keep an eye on her tonight. Give her a favorite treat. Keep her quiet. 

Sharon


----------



## Haley (Jul 29, 2007)

Oh geeze, Im so sorry to hear about your little one. Sounds like you are doing everything you can with what you have.

I understand why your vet didnt want to spay since the risk does increase as they age, but I would think the risks involved witha first time pregnancy would be much greater. Hopefully they will be able to assess whats going on tomorrow and go from there. 

I'll be keeping your little one in my thoughts and prayers. Its good shes eating and pooping. 

Haley


----------



## chinbunny1 (Jul 29, 2007)

Sounds like she may have some stuck kits in her. Best thing to do is to get her into the vet first thing in the morning. If she has any kits in her the vet will give her a shot of oxytosin. In the meantime you can try giving her gentle tummy rubs to help induce labor. Do you have any raspberries growing around your house? If you do you can feed her some of the leaves. They are a natural remedy to help induce labor.


----------



## MsBinky (Jul 29, 2007)

Well I have been keeping an eye on her since I found the blood. All is good... She hasn't lost any other blood since. She is eating, drinking, peeing, and pooping plenty. She is moving around plenty though she really likes a good rub so I have been sitting by her and giving her a good rub though I must be carefulbecause if I touch her in the wrong place she'll bite my hand off. Lol. 

I was wondering...

She has pulled out A LOT of fur. What are the chances that she ingested quite a bit and could have caused the problem? Anyone know?


----------



## Haley (Jul 29, 2007)

Its normal for girls to pull fur for their nests. If she has ingested some, it wouldnt be related to the blood. It would cause a blockage in her GI tract, so its good that shes eating and pooping. That means no blockage. Keep her eating lots of hay though just in case she does ingest some hair..


----------



## MsBinky (Jul 30, 2007)

Thanks

I know it's normal but I couldn't help hope that maybe it was that and it had caused her to strain.Not that it is much better... Lol. She is doing fine this morning though so I am keeping my fingers crossed. The vet I called doesn't want to do anything since there is no other sign of trouble. She says the stress of taking her to the vets might cause more problems so as long as there are no other signs of anything wrong, she should be ok.

Fingers crossed...


----------



## Pipp (Jul 30, 2007)

The chances are pretty good that she WON'T be okay. Seriously, find another vet who knows rabbitsand get an emergency spay ASAP. Are you near any of the ones listed? I'd travel pretty far to get this done now. A bunny dyingin labouris a horribly long drawn out and painful way to go. 

sas


----------



## Flashy (Jul 30, 2007)

*Pipp wrote: *


> The chances are pretty good that she WON'T be okay. Seriously, find another vet who knows rabbitsand get an emergency spay ASAP. Are you near any of the ones listed? I'd travel pretty far to get this done now. A bunny dyingin labouris a horribly long drawn out and painful way to go.
> 
> sas


I agree. I lost two buns to labour and it's so awful, and those were both with vets treatment.


----------



## TinysMom (Jul 30, 2007)

Well - time to get a new vet then. There is a good chance there could be retained kits that will cause an infection. She needs to be seen ASAP just to make sure everything is ok.

Sorry - but your vet is wrong about this.

Peg*


MsBinky wrote: *


> Thanks
> 
> She says the stress of taking her to the vets might cause more problems so as long as there are no other signs of anything wrong, she should be ok.
> 
> Fingers crossed...


----------



## MsBinky (Jul 30, 2007)

I have no other vets. The other is in Lachine and I can't get there. I really hope nothing goes wrong. If something happens though, our regular vet would take her in and let me know if it's too serious. I would rather have her put down than watch her suffer. I really hope it won't come to that. All those vets, except one,listed are really far and I have no one to take her. *Cries* In a few days Mario will get his paycheck so maybe I could take a taxi all the way to Lachine but that is still in a few days. 

This really sucks.


----------



## pamnock (Jul 30, 2007)

It's very important to get her to the vet to see what's going on. We're not even certain that she is carrying a litter, so it's difficult to recommend any type of action to take or to even speculate what is going on. Uterine tumors are very common in older rabbits, so this could also be a factor.

The bleeding could be a serious situation that needs to be evaluated by a veterinarian ASAP.

Pam


----------



## hopntailrabbitry (Jul 30, 2007)

Hi,

I'm very sorry to hear about your doe. But however, the age that she is right now you can never breed rabbits at the age nor start at that age. Anyways just FYI you mentioned that you let her play, normally when does are pregnant you never let them play in a huge pen just let them stay in there cage when they are pregnant and whenthe kits are born. And when your doe plays of course they do cork screws and everything (well I'm not sure if your doe did that) but when I doe has too much exercise when they are pregnant that isn't good that is when early labour will begin. 



But then again anyways when I've started to breed I read anything and everything on sites and books and asked breeders and what I mentioned above is true. But anyways that is my own opinion of that might have happen....but still I hope getting her to the vet will be good and of course if you bring her to the right vet that of course does rabbits and you found them lets hope they will know something. lol



Good Luck!


----------



## polly (Jul 31, 2007)

can you give us an update on whats going on is she ok?


----------



## MsBinky (Jul 31, 2007)

Hi guys

I agree that the bad thing was letting Wiggles out to play. I just felt bad because she was so lonely and wanting to see Bam-Bam. I realize that I should have taken Bam-Bam to her cage instead. I was watching her however and she wasn't like running or jumping much so I thought it would be ok. I think that may have caused the bleeding. I have found nothing since. I haven't let her out but I do sit with her for a few hours here and there to give her a good rub and keep her soothed. She sure enjoys that a lot. She is eating plenty, drinking, peeing, pooping, and she is very alert. I'm not trying to palpate her or pick her up now as she hates it and I don't want to stress her out.

Thanks for all your advice and insight ink iris:


----------



## hopntailrabbitry (Jul 31, 2007)

Hi,

I'm glad she is doing very well. I see your doe hates being picked up,when I breed my does and when they are almost due they don't want you to touch them nor there belly because they are sore.


----------



## Haley (Jul 31, 2007)

Glad to hear she's doing ok right now. If you cant get her to the vet for an emergency spay, keep a close eye on her as she approaches the 30 day mark of her pregnancy. If you see her straining at all or she does not give birth during the following daysyou need to get her to a vet asap.

Most likely she has had a miscarriage. If shes does not give birth those kits will be dead inside her. The vet can either surgically remove them or try to use a mix of antibiotics on her. If nothing is done she will go septic and die a horribly painful death.

We actually had this happen to one of our member's precious girl. It was devastating and heartbreaking for all of us. 

Please keep an eye on her and get her to the vet at the first sign of trouble. These next few weeks are critical.


----------



## Flashy (Jul 31, 2007)

I truly hope that it is that she is ok, and past this 

But, like the others have said, there are far too many things that can go wrong from this point onwards, so keep a close eye at the very least.


----------



## MsBinky (Jul 31, 2007)

I am definitely keeping an eye on her. I wouldn't let anything happen to her if I can help it. You may think I was careless, and I agree it was dumb, but I cried for so many hours when I had realized my mistake with Bam-Bam. You have no idea how frustrated I am with the lack of proper care here for bunnies and with myself for causing it. I did however contact my regular vet and we did agree that if she does not give birth in a few days or something changes, he will see to it that she gets those babies out. I guess he meant the antibiotics like you said. He still doesn't want to do anything because he is not convinced that she actually lost anything. Heh. I dunno. This vet is at least better than the other who actually does the operations. I wish they had listened to me and just done the spay when I asked. Not only to save her this dangerous pregnancy, but also to avoid the cancer. Instead, because she is healthy otherwise, they don't want to touch her due to her age. I wish I had known about the importance to spay before she was too old. I am planning on having Dahlia spayed as soon as I can find someone to take her to the more experienced vet. Wiggles doesn't like to be picked up but once I scoop her up with one hand at her neck and one holding under her back feet she calms down immediately and snuggles. I was doing this only to palpate her. She hasn't been coming out of the cage since the mishap. I am hoping this will all be over for her soon.


----------



## ellissian (Jul 31, 2007)

I'm sorry to hear about your bun. Although I have no experience with pregnant buns but in April my pregnant guinea pig started spotting blood, I took her straight to the vets and her babies had sadly died inside her. The vets gave her a c section to remove the babies as I knew they would turn toxic fairly quickly.

Please, take your bun to a vet asap or at least feel to see if the babies are still moving inside her.


----------



## Starlight Rabbitry (Jul 31, 2007)

If you are correct on your dates (not meant to be rude)...lol...then she is about 24 days along. You shouldn't expect her to have anything for another week.I would palpate her in a couple of days because by then you should feel them kicking. If you don't, then they may be dead.

Hope all goes well and keep us posted.

Sharon

BTW, are you prepared if she is pregnant? Do you have a nestbox?


----------



## MsBinky (Jul 31, 2007)

Ty for the info. I had no idea when I'd be able to feel them moving about. I have a question though. I heard that they can have them anywhere between 28-32 days. Can she have hers in 4 days? She is a mini-rex. I do not know if the breed changes something... Yep she is all ready, though I am not sure my emotions are. Lol. She made her nest 2-3 days ago and she sleeps in a box besides her nest. Go figure. Lol. She is in a large cage and secluded where it is a bit more quiet though there are still a lot of comings and goings because she gets awful lonely. 

Question:

If she does have babies, is it recommended to change the bowl of water to a bottle? I wouldn't want one drowning... Though I figure they might be big enough once they start moving around that they won't drown? Do babies figure out how bottles work? I prefer a bowl myself...


----------



## Flashy (Jul 31, 2007)

Generally rabbits tend to give birth on the 31st day.

If she has babies then you can keep the water bottle if you like. I used a bowl with mine, and placed it as far away from the nest as possible and we had no problems, but we did have to regularly check the babies to make sure no one had rolled about. The babies will learn how to use a bottle, they will watch mum and copy. It just needs to be at the right height. It might also be an idea to have more than one bottle because only one bun can drink from a bottle at one time.

In all honesty though, it's probably unlikely that she will have any alive bunnies. But you might find that she delivers some dead kits, or maybe some deformed looking lumps. That is, if she manages to deliver them.


----------



## Starlight Rabbitry (Aug 1, 2007)

You are correct  She could have them anywhere from the 28-34 day. However, majority of does have them on the 30-32 day. 

I use water bottles as I have had the doe move the bowl and a baby drown in it. The babies learn quick...it is so cute. Just lower the bottle. Add another one because as the babies start to drink, they can empty that one bottle in a matter of hours.

Sharon


----------



## Pipp (Aug 1, 2007)

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but based onthe research I did afterGeorge's bunny jumped in with Sakura and Sugar, the impressionI got was that the chances of a four-year-old rabbitwho has neverpreviously been bred surviving the birth are not good at all. 

I'm somewhat puzzled by the lack of action and the talkof kits, here.  Am I missing something? This doe has already experienced premature bleeding.



sas :?


----------



## Starlight Rabbitry (Aug 2, 2007)

I have bred rabbits that are older...One was 3 years old. It just depends on the doe. As a rule, it is less likely that there will be complications if the doe has her first litter before she 12 months old. 

Unfortunately, since the doe is acting normally and there is no signs of distress, there isn't anything that she can do. Just have to wait to see when she goes into labor. Most vets will not do a c-section when there is no signs of complications. 

Sharon


----------



## MsBinky (Aug 2, 2007)

I have been avoiding this thread as I really didn't need anyone or anything to make me feel worse right now but I felt I needed to explain a few things to you first. I didn't feel like sharing personal details but I guess I will be judged as insensitive and simply careless until I did.

First of all, all my bunnies are rescued bunnies except for Dahlia. All those rescued bunnies were to be put down or used as food for snakes when I got them. I got my first one at the age of 16. I was working, paying to live at home, and paying everything I needed myself. When my bunny Toutounne got sick, my parents refused to pay for treatment. I got a second job to pay for her treatments and I went to numerous vet appointments, doing a billion tests to try and figure out what was happening. Meanwhile, my other bunny Grizouille also got ill with the same thing so I treated her as much as I did the other. Shots of anitbiotics, I have done too many to count. I syringe fed them, cleaned them, and held them throughout their seizures. Finally, I had to put them down because it was too pitiful. All of this cost me about a good 500$. Ihad justgotten Wiggles at the time (before knowing the other two were sick of course) and I was also desperately trying to save her life.Luckily, the vetpitied her and didn't charge me for most of the stuff. No one thought she would make it. I dunno if you have ever dealt with a babybunny who has been in so much pain that it broke it's teeth from grinding them but I have. I made her every puree imaginable and syringe fed her. I didn't sleep at nights and I held her in my arms wrapped in a blanket to keep her warm. I wiped her eyes, her nose, her paws. She couldn't even walk for how bad the infection on her hind legs was. Then one night she seized and I thought for sure she had caught what the others had and I'd lose her. I held her and kept her from hurting herself and then I cradled her through the night. Despite all the odds, she pulled through, surprising everyone who had seen her. Later that year, while working at the pet shop, an older bunny (about 9 months-1 year) who still hadn't been adopted just charmed her way into my home. I bought her as a present for my mom. She was, and still remains the smartest and sweetest bunny I have met. My mother adored her and pampered her like no other. One day, while doing a routine check on the buns, I realized that she had developped malocclusion. From then on, it was regular visits to the vet. Luckily, he only charged 5$ to trim them, even when anaethesia became necessary. Maybe a year later, the malocclusion got very serious and before we knew it, her top teeth had curved into her gums. She couldn't eat properly and I was terrified. I took her to the vet and he was able to cut her teeth and remove a good part but not all of it. She developped and abcess and though we did everything we could think of, we ran out of options. The other vet had decided that an operation to remove her teeth would not succeed as the infection had spread into her respiratory track. The morning I had called in to have her put to sleep, she took a rapid drastic turn for the worst, and I held her tight as she took her last breaths and died in my arms. All in all, I spent about 1200$ on those 3 bunnies and I am still paying off my Visa. I spent it knowing that there was a good chance they wouldn't make it, but I never gave up on them. Not once. Not even when the vet suggested I save my money. I loved them too dearly not to fight for them. :cry1:

This month has been full of the unexpected. I saved a bunny from being euthanised but then put my Wiggles in danger by giving in to pressure. To top it off, I was rushed to the ER for a near respiratory arrest and then told I had pneumonia since November. I was then rushed to the ER to be hospitalized for my heart. I have been in and out of the hospital since, and bills piled on quickly unexpectedly. However, despite all this, my attention was on Wiggles. As soon as I saw the mistake I called both my vet and the vet specialized in exotic animals (he is affiliated to the SPCA and Quebec Rabbit Shelter and comes highly recommended). I feared pelvic bones setting and was utterly confused when both told me they had never heard of this. I was completely discouraged with the lack of knowledge from both vets. When I found that blood, I was terrified. I called every place I could think of, including some that I knew didn't deal with bunnies. The one place I got through was the emergency animal hospital called the DMV Centre located in Lachine. Both the first person and vet tech told me that even if I brought her in, they had no idea what they could do for her other than what I was already doing. I monitored her all night, and followed your advice as best I could. On monday morning, I called and both told me that as long as there had been no other bleeding, and that she was as active as she was, they didn't want me to move her, stress her out, or handle her too much. They would not do a caesarian at this point and they definitely would not do a spay, they said. One vet offered to do an emergency caesarian if, and only if, she started to have contractions (or if she was straining to pee) and nothing was coming out. My vet told me that if her due date comes and passes, I am to take her in and then he will check what is going on. He told me that if there were babies in there he'd get them out. He did not tell me how however. I have been monitoring her since, there has been no other blood at all, and she is eating and drinking as she normally does. She is just as active as usual although she does plop herself on the side when she gets tired. 

I understand that everyone here loves bunnies and try to do everything they can to protect them. I do not however appreciate being made to feel as though I am unworthy to own a bunny. Especially, since I have rescued as many as I could and did everything I possibly could to save their lives. I wish I had a car to drive them down to some place whre they actually knew more. I wish I had even half the resources many of you have. If I did, maybe my 3 other buns would not have died. I am doing everything in my power right now to give her the treatment she deserves.I do not expect kits, nor do I want any if it means putting her in jeopardy. I did ask for an emergency spay as soon as I realized the possibility of her being pregnant. If I ask, it is because stranger things have happened and I do want to be prepared if it does happen.

I want to say a big thank you to those who have sympathized, offered advice without making me feel like a completely insensitive person, and to those who have pm'd me to offer words of support and ecouragement. To everyone, I'm sorry for the long post but I had to get this off my chest.

Sincerely,

A very emotinal MsBinky:tears2:


----------



## Flashy (Aug 2, 2007)

:hug2::hug2::hug2::hug2::hug2::hug2:

Firstly I want to say sorry if I was one of those people that made you feel bad, because that was never my intention, and I am terribly sorry if anything I did say, made you feel that.

I also don't think that anyone intended to make you fele unworthy of owning a bunny, people are just concerned for the bunny, and it is hard when the bunny is at a distance to know what is going on, if that makes sense. I know I have thought about this thread a lot because I had a pregnant doe start to bleed during her pregnancy and your thread touched a nerve with me, and if I thought about it, I'm willing to bet other people did too.

Ok, I'll start with your other three buns. It sounds like you did everything imaginable to help them survive, you went above and beyond the call of most rabbit owners, they were very lucky to have you (as are your current bunnies). Sometimes rabbits do die, no matter what we do to try and save them. I suspect that given as you did everything possible that no matter what else was done, they would probably have died anyway, which is sad. Please don't say they might still have been alive if you had better resources because, like I said, they could easily still have died. 

It sounds like you have a lot of health issues, and I'm sorry you are suffering them. I have found that my bunnies help me greatly when my illnesses get the better of me, so I am glad that you have buns, and also I hope that they help you when you are feeling bad.

I don't really know what to say about your current bunny problem other than it is clear you are doing what you can for her.

I'm sorry you felt the pressure to reveal things you didn't want to reveal.

MyPM box is open if you ever do want a chat.

Please hang in there and look after yourself.

PS, I saw this post about an hour ago but my computer went arse over tit, so apologies for taking a while to post on here.


----------



## MsBinky (Aug 2, 2007)

:hug2:

I am not mad at anyone. It's just uncomfortable when you already feel at a loss and then others add to it without realizing it. I know that people here care, that is why I am not mad. It does sadden me though when people don't understand why I am not doing more at this point.I don't want to be categorized as one of those 'careless' peeps. It's so easy to say 'get her to the vet asap' when you have one available and one who is willing to act on it. I'm hoping that the younger vets will have more training on how to deal with bunnies. I do still like you all, and even more so after seeing how passionate you all are.:hug:

I still cry when I think of my other buns. I knew what I was getting into when i took them home but it doesn't change the pain.The death of mymother's bun was the most heartbreaking thing I have experienced. It was terribly rough on my mother who has sinced refused to get attached to any other bunnies. It sucks that instead of turning her into a passionate bunny-lover, she now avoids them. I still can't help but wonder if more could have been done. :cry2

Anywho, I am still looking for a way to get Wiggles to Lachine. This month has been just so bad.

Thank you for your kind thoughts :bunny19


----------



## hopntailrabbitry (Aug 2, 2007)

I'm sorry about the poor doe...I hope all is doing well.

Anyways I hate to break it to you but you are not going to be able to get her spayed due to of her old age. Basically if you wanted to get her spayed she needs to be younger;in the case she isn't.(Which I forgot how old they are suppose to be). As me being part of 4-H and being an ARBA member,vets will not spay a rabbit at that age and that is risking the doe. Also, it is very hard to find a vet that will deal with rabbits. The reason why they probably don't to deal with them is because they probably won't survive. With in that case is not true...if you have a heart for the rabbit and you are postivie that you can save the rabbit,then you can save that rabbit.

However, my one Holland Lop. He had snuffles when he was 4 weeks old. Now I asked every breeder what should I do. Well everybody wanted me to take him to vet and I didn't want to because first of all he still needed his mom. And second I was thinking postive that I can try to save him myself. So, me and my mom went to this store where they have all livestock supplies. So then I gotten this stuff called Rabbit RX and I used it for a few days. On Christmas Eve I didn't hear no wheezing and sneezing and he didn't have trouble breathing. But even though I'm 17 and I like to challenge myself with rabbits. All I basically wanted for Christmas was him to get better. Of course on Christmas Eve I gotten what I wanted and he is better. After when I know that snuffles was gone from his system I knew I caught it in time. And I even talk to this breeder and she said that I was sooo lucky that it didn't spread like wildfire through out my whole entire rabbitry and I'm aslo glad that none of my other rabbits gotten.

But anyways don't give up without a fight and just think positive!


----------



## MsBinky (Aug 2, 2007)

Btw, I wanted to mention. It's not only the fact that it would cost a fortune to get from here to Lachine by taxi, that prevents me from going. It's also the fact that my fiance has spinal atrophy and is wheelchair bound. Therefore, it's a bit scary for me to leave him alone for an undetermined amount of time.I try to balance all things at once and I just feel overwhelmed at times. Lol.


----------



## MsBinky (Aug 2, 2007)

Awww I'm happy your bun is ok! Yeah you are right about the vets not wanting to risk it. That is the exact reason they told me they didn't want to touch her since they felt it was unnecessary as of now. I only found out this year about spaying and neutering :?Luckily, forums like this and other organizations are promoting awareness and saving other owners this heartbreak and saving bunnies' lives.


----------



## hopntailrabbitry (Aug 2, 2007)

Transportation is very hard for me and my mom too. Due to that my dad is trying to run a cleaning business and tyring to get more money so he can get his own car and for me to get a car is very hard. However, I hope he does get more cleaning accounts. First of all yes I do want a car but I don't care what the price will be as long as the car is cheap and it runs and not too old. I told him I want a car that is from 2000,but I doubt he won't get a car for me at that year.

But oh joy I have to leave about an hour or 2 to bring my rabbits to the fair and get tjem checked-in. I wonder how Miracle (the one had snuffles) will enjoy check-ins. hehe  I call Miracle the devil. Ever since I saved him he is extremely nasty! And the good part is that when you stick your fingers in his cage he'll bite you! So, of course even though rope is there to close of the cages so nobdy can stick there fingers in the cage to pet the rabbit. Welll with me and my mind I decided to leave him on the bottom so just in case if somebody sticks there fingers in his cage he'll bite them and next time the people who come to visit the fair can know and learn how to read the signs! :grumpy::biggrin2:


----------



## Flashy (Aug 2, 2007)

*MsBinky wrote: *


> It's so easy to say 'get her to the vet asap' when you have one available and one who is willing to act on it.



This is true, but remember that not everyone on here has a vet at easy reach.

I had a vets that I thought were good until they made a mistake that killed one of my rabbits launching me into a vet-less situation that I hated. I was very fortunate to stumable across one that was suggested on here and to be impressed with what they do. So I can relate to not having a decent vet, even though mine was not as dire a situation as yours is (in terms of vets I mean).

When we had our bleeding pregnant doe we sought the advice of vets but did not actually take her. So why did I say take yours to the vets? To sit on the side of caution, and I personally probably would always say that on here because via the web we can't know the situation and also we are not vets.


----------



## hopntailrabbitry (Aug 2, 2007)

Also, I still remember my first 4-H project. I love my first rabbit Rockie who was a Mixed. I believe when Rockie was 5 years old we had a very very small house fire...well a kitchen fire. After when the firefighters came to make sure nothing else was wrong with house I wanted all of my animals out of the house which I did give them fresh air. After a week later I notcied that Rockie wasn't eatting nor drinking. I started to get worried and my mom told me ge is going to the vet in a week. Sadly, when I came home from school I noticed that he was lying down not being himself. So, I told my mom that he can't wait another week he needs to go now! So, that is when my mom called up the vet and said that we needed to come now. 

When we arrived they brought him in right away. So, then I told the vet it might be his teeth.And the vet said nothing is wrong with his teeth. After that the vet was listening to his heart and the vet said oh noo,I doesn't said good. That's when I paniced. His lungs had smoke in it when we had the fire. And after when the vet told us, I asked him what about his teeth? When the nurse was there she gotten VERY nasty with me! I said hey I'm paying you to fix my rabbit and not letting him die! And I gotten extremely angry with the women. And she was such a b*tch. 

Anyways, after what happened to Rockie I will never ever go to that vet for my rabbits not even dogs because first of all the service was horrible and they were extremely nasty and didn't know or care about rabbits.

But I do know 2 vets that know about rabbits. But oh my god it is sooo expensive!


----------



## ec (Aug 2, 2007)

> Anyways I hate to break it to you but you are not going to be able to get her spayed due to of her old age. Basically if you wanted to get her spayed she needs to be younger;in the case she isn't.(Which I forgot how old they are suppose to be). As me being part of 4-H and being an ARBA member,vets will not spay a rabbit at that age and that is risking the doe. Also, it is very hard to find a vet that will deal with rabbits. The reason why they probably don't to deal with them is because they probably won't survive. With in that case is not true...if you have a heart for the rabbit and you are postivie that you can save the rabbit,then you can save that rabbit.




*hopntail*, buns can be spayed/neutered at virtually *any* age, as long as they're in good health otherwise. Most rescues will have buns far older than 3-4 ysars altered as a rule!

Have you checked out the *Bunny 101* and health library sections of this site yet? There's a ton of info. in both that I think will be very helpful to you - as it has been to me, and many other folks (and buns, of course!)

Bunny 101 link: http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_forum.php?id=17

*Spaying and Neutering info. thread*: http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=12040&forum_id=10


----------



## hopntailrabbitry (Aug 3, 2007)

However ec that is completely not true that rabbits can be fixed at any age. That is completely false. I've been to vets that know tons of things about rabbits and they said only when they are young. And with me dealing in 4-H they told me the samething. But that is pushing it for that rabbit at that age to get fixed and the rabbit will get stressed. I've been dealing with rabbits and been in 4-H for 7 years and I know what I'm talking about.


----------



## Haley (Aug 3, 2007)

4-H doesnt recommend spaying and neutering, correct? So is it fair to say them may be a littl misinformed on this?

Our rescue spays and neuters rabbits at almost any age. Granted, the risk does increase as the rabbit matures, but usually bloodwork can help rule out any risks. Most rabbit-savvy vets will recommend bloodwork if the bunny is over 2-3 years of age.

But I know people who have had their rabbit altered starting at around 3 months all the way up to around 7-8 years.


----------



## seniorcats (Aug 3, 2007)

From personal experience, I had Fredrica rabbit spayed at age 7 and she lived to be 13 years old. Eugenia Victoria was spayed at age 5 and she also lived to be 13. Coney was neutered at age 5 and he lived to be 15 years old. I would not hesitate to spay or neuter a healthy 'older' rabbit. None of them ever appeared to be stressed by the surgeries and all recovered quickly. One of my friends on another board had her bunny Flash neutered at age 12. He is going strong at age 14.

The key is a good rabbit vet and a healthy rabbit. I figure neutering at an older age is much preferable to cancer.


----------



## Spring (Aug 3, 2007)

I agree, I had a 3 year old spayed this past May? I think. She did wonderfully! Took a tiny bit more time for her to recover, but she was perfectly fine. MyBabyBunnies also had her 5 year old spayed without a problem too . I rather take the still small risk at an older age to spay then roll the dice with uterine and ovarian cancer.

How is little Wiggles doing? Has anything changed?


----------



## MsBinky (Aug 3, 2007)

I will try to convince the vet to do the spay if we can do blood work and rule out any major risks. 

As for Wiggles, well today she is flopping on her side a lot more than usual. She is eating more hay than usual but less pellets than usual. She is drinking as normal, and also peeing and pooping like normal. She seems tired and hot so I am keeping a close eye on her at the moment. She is still very alert and she does come to me when I open the door to pet her. She is really enjoying those rubs right now. 

Thank you for asking.


----------



## ec (Aug 3, 2007)

*MsBinky*, glad to hear that Wiggles is doing better today! BTW, you might want to take a look at this site (medical info. about rabbits) and maybe print out some things for the vet: http://www.medirabbit.com/

You could also print articles on this board, or found at links posted in the health section of this board - should help!

********

Re. showing (in 4-H, at least), altered rabbits are automatically DQed. (To my way of thinking, this is very unfortunate, but I'll save that for another thread... )


----------



## Flashy (Aug 4, 2007)

How many days pregnant do you think she would be by now if she were still pregnant?

It might be that if she lost the babies when she bled that if this is nearing her due date, her body might be getting ready to get them out of her system. The day or so before a rabbit goes into labour they often get quite quiet, and given that if this is labour, it's probably not going to be overly easy or normal, you are going to want to have to watch her really closely.


----------



## Starlight Rabbitry (Aug 4, 2007)

You should be able to feel them kick by now. If you can't, then she probably lost them and you need to watch her ever more closely. It may be hard for her to pass dead kits. 

If you can feel them kick, then everything is hopefully moving along as it should.

Sharon


----------



## Flashy (Aug 4, 2007)

I also wondered whether this might be the first signs of shock or infection starting to show.


----------



## MsBinky (Aug 4, 2007)

I'm getting a bit fidgety. I don't expect babies really but I do want to see at least something come out so I know she is ok. I'm going to go have a good feel and see if I can spot something. What are the chances that she was never pregnant or nothing actually developped? Also, she should be at ther 29th day now I think. This is if we count from the first day that she and Bam-Bam were together. I heard that it could take a few tries before a doe of her age could be pregnant. Should I count from the very first day or should I spare a few? Also, someone mentionned using raspberry leaves.. Would this be safe? When would be a good time to feed her some?


----------



## Flashy (Aug 4, 2007)

Raspberry leaves would be safe, but if she is not used to them, you will have to introduce her to them slowly. 

You need to look at the whole window, from the very first day she was with him, and count 28 days from that (so this would be the minimum), and then the very last day she was with him and count 32 days from that (so this would be the maximum), any day within that she could give birth.

But yes, it is possible shewas neverpregnant, and if that is the case, then you could easily be facing uterine cancer, and the bleeding might have been an indication of this.

I would say to watch her behaviour very carefully because if she deteriorate further, as in eating less, more lethargic, hot (you might want to buy a thermometer to help you with this one) or cold, then she will need a vet asap. I know what you said, when things get bad a vet can sometimes be the only hope they have; but hopefully it won't get to that.


----------



## Starlight Rabbitry (Aug 5, 2007)

Don't count the first day. So if you bred her (say on the 15th) then day 1 is the 16th.

Hope that helps. Also, keep in mind that she could have complications so watch for signs that she is distressed and in labor.

Sharon


----------



## Haley (Aug 5, 2007)

I would say its highly unlikely that she was never pregnant. Especially due to the bleeding, its too much of a coincidence. 

In my opinion, she was pregnant and the bleeding was a miscarriage. How many days are you at now? If you cant feel the kits, she doesnt give birth and you've hit the 32 day mark, you should definitley get her to a vet so they can get those dead kits out.


----------



## Crystal4314 (Aug 5, 2007)

nothing useful to add, just that I've been watching this thread and hope she's ok


----------



## polly (Aug 7, 2007)

:bumpjust that this should be 32 days and was wondering how she is


----------



## MsBinky (Aug 8, 2007)

I am utterly confused by my bun right now. She is absolutely fine and she is less moody than she was :?I am taking a vet appointment for tomorrow to get some answers. :?

Thanks for your thoughts.


----------



## Haley (Aug 8, 2007)

Very strange :shock:Glad shes doing ok though.

Id like to hear what some of the breeders think about this- does a female who misscarries always strain/try to deliver around 31 days? Or could the dead kits be in there and she doesnt try to deliver them, so you would see no signs of babies until its too late and they've gone septic?

I know there are alternatives to spaying/surgery- some sort of antibiotic and another drug that help to absorb the dead kits. I wonder if it would be worth it to use those drugs just in case it was a misscarriage- before she goes into septic shock.

Thoughts?


----------



## naturestee (Aug 8, 2007)

Maybe she reabsorbed them? I don't know how late into the pregnancy they can do that, but rabbits that miscarry can reabsorb the fetuses inside the uterus.


----------



## MsBinky (Aug 8, 2007)

Glad I am not the only one to fnd it strange :?

I was thinking of her reabsorbing them too. Anyway, I have an appointment on Friday at 6:20 pm. I will ask about giving her antbiotics to be on the safe side. I doubt they would harm her if there is nothing there? I'm really confused by all this. Lol. Maybe she was faking it to get some extraattention?


----------



## polly (Aug 8, 2007)

Could be some does take phantom pregnancies pretty far, Are you def. sure it was blood and not red urine?


----------



## aurora369 (Aug 8, 2007)

LOL, Polly! I was just about to ask the same question!

Sometimes rabbit pee can be a very dark orange or red. When it dries it does look like dried blood.

Did you just find a puddle of blood or did was there blood all over your girls genitals?

--Dawn


----------



## MsBinky (Aug 8, 2007)

I'm not even sure anymore :?Lmbo.I was pretty sure it was blood but maybe it wasn't. I always thought red urine was a bit more orange. This was bright red. :?Problem is that her bum wasn't red it was more orange. I am sooooooooo confused. LOL


----------



## MsBinky (Aug 8, 2007)

Would it be safe to put Wiggles back wth Bam-Bam? They are getting terribly lonely.I guess it would be better to wait for news from the vet?


----------



## Starlight Rabbitry (Aug 9, 2007)

I wouldn't put them back together until you find out from the vet if she is indeed pregnant or has a different issue. Just spend a little more time with each of them so as they don't get lonely.

Make sure you ask the vet if it would be o.k. to put her back with Bam Bam.

Sharon


----------



## Pipp (Aug 9, 2007)

*MsBinky wrote: *


> I was pretty sure it was blood but maybe it wasn't. I always thought red urine was a bit more orange. This was bright red. :?Problem is that her bum wasn't red it was more orange.


From what I've read, you can't really go by colour, it's more of a texture -- blood has clots that will appear as lines or spots in urine and maybe thread-like lines onthe rear of a bleeding doe? What exactly did you see?

And bunnies seem toreabsorb even active litters. I've seen several cases here where people felt movement in the pregnant doe, butshe never delivered.It's a situation that can be toxic, and it could show up in a tragic manner even weeks from now if untreated.

I'm frustrated with the vetshere, not the owner.Youshouldn't have to travel, surely any vet can do an xray, blood test or something,if not an ultrasound, or at least prescribepreventative or cautionary meds.

They canconsult with another vet. They can even call a breeder! What they can't do is nothing. 

Even without stuck or reabsorbed kits, if that doe was delivering a full term litter right now,chances are very verygoodat her age she'd be in trouble, I find it stunning they didn't react.There'snomeds, no one on standby, no instructions, nothing.This one bothers me because I've seen it -- death while giving birth isexcruciating torture. It's like sticking a screwdriver in them andtwisting it for8, 12 hours.It's not an event I'dtake a gamble on.

I hope you get some answers. 

sas


----------



## MsBinky (Aug 9, 2007)

That has been my frustration all along. Right now all looks normal but it bothers me that she is quiet though she is eating, peeing, pooping, etc. I will be asking for the antibiotics tomorrow even if the vet finds nothing. I just want to be on the safe side with her. I hope she gets decent treatment tomorrow...:?


----------



## polly (Aug 9, 2007)

sounds like it could have been wee but being with him has put her into a phantom pregnancy, but i agree better safe than sorry, Is he neutered cause if not i would not be putting them anywhere near each other till at least one of them is done!


----------



## MsBinky (Aug 11, 2007)

I put the vet results on the "Rabbits Online Forum" section to make it easier to find and because I didn't think it concerned breeders now. I hope that is ok.


----------

