# Why should I care about my rabbits genetic history or conformation when breeding?



## Watermelons

*DISCUSSION TOPIC*
*PLEASE KEEP IT CLEAN AND FRIENDLY*
*RESPECTFUL DEBATE*

:dutch

Okay breeders.
I want you to help educate. I want to hear what you have to say. 
I would love to be able to include answers I get on here in future projects for the Rabbitry 

I do not breed rabbits. 

This question has come up a few times. Why should I care about finding more information out about my rabbits before I breed them?

I personally believe it's important that breeders focus on quality breeding and quality stock.
Maybe you guys can list some reasons for me that may help other new breeders in the future.

Why is it so important to know the genetic history of the rabbits you're breeding?
What about the health history?
What about rabbits with poor conformation? Pinched hindquarters for example, and any other reasons.
What can happen if you breed rabbits with unknown histories?
How are we bettering the breed if we do this?
Is this not how the breeds were first made?
Why cant it try and make new breeds by breeding mixed breed rabbits?
What about breeding pet store rabbits? Or rescues?
Brother and sisters?


How can we ensure high quality standards and the health of rabbits that are being bred? What issues and health problems/concerns can arise if people don't research these things?

I feel pretty lost sometimes when I try and explain to others that these things are important, but I don't have the experience, you guys do! Lets hear it  and of coarse, anything else you guys feel like contributing to the topic!


:dutch


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## OakRidgeRabbits

I'll do my best to answer some of these questions.  I think I need to preface my explanations by noting that, in the United States, the authority on rabbit raising and husbandry is the American Rabbit Breeders' Association. The association provides a breed standard for each recognized breed, which details (point by point) what the rabbit's conformation, coat density, length and color, and other characteristics should be.

*Why is it so important to know the genetic history of the rabbits you're breeding?*

Every breed is recognized in specific colors. There are also colors that are not recognized. Knowing the genetic history of your rabbit gives you better insight into what the rabbit may carry or pass down to its offspring. As far as coat colors go, genetic history is purely a cosmetic characteristic but very important if you plan to show.

More important (and practical) are the genetics that control body type. Conformation controls everything, from the way the rabbit carries its weight to the way the head and teeth develop and more. When you're working with purebred rabbits, you know exactly what you're getting into - it's right on the pedigree.

Some lines are known for certain traits - maybe strong shoulders, but tend to be weaker in hindquarter. Also, not every bloodline crosses with others well. A good breeder will learn which lines mesh well so that the rabbits they're producing have stronger conformation in each generation. 

When you're working with rabbits of no known history, there is no way to know what you're breeding. This may be okay if the breeder is willing to cull terminally for unwanted characteristics. But if the goal is to place culls in pet homes, the breeder should have knowledge of the history of the rabbit to pass on to the customer.

*What about the health history?*

I think this part is pretty self-explanatory. An example I can give is one of our very first rabbits who was purchased from a pet store. She appeared healthy and rambunctious as a young rabbit. But as she reached about 5 years old, her feet started turning into her chest. Her conformation was "off," so the distribution of body weight on her front limbs was too much. The twisting and arthritis progressed throughout the rest of her life. She lived to be 10 years old before she passed away from cancer, which she may or may not have been genetically predisposed to. By the end of her life, one foot stood almost parallel to her chest.

If selecting for healthy, hardy animals isn't a concern, my question would be why is the person breeding their animals?

*What about rabbits with poor conformation? Pinched hindquarters for example, and any other reasons.*

This ties into what I've already said. Correct conformation isn't purely cosmetic. Breed standards are made to encourage conformation that will support the animal throughout its life. It's very difficult to get all the right traits on one rabbit. As soon as you have a baby born with a nice, full hindquarter, another trait goes backwards...maybe they're light in bone. So you start focusing on heavier bone. Finally, the herd has heavy bone but seems to have narrow shoulders.

It's impossible to produce a perfect rabbit. Raising them is a selective process in an effort to balance as many good traits as possible. When you ignore conformation altogether, these traits disappear very fast. Within one generation, you can start seeing pinched hindquarters again or light bone.

With domestic rabbits, there is no natural selection. There's no "the strongest survive." It's our responsibility as breeders to select for animals that are built for the long lives they live in our care. Desirable traits don't happen by accident, we have to purposefully breed for them. Otherwise, poor traits will take over quickly because there is nothing in a domestic animal's environment that will take them away.

*What can happen if you breed rabbits with unknown histories?*

See above.

*How are we bettering the breed if we do this?*

I think sometimes the cliche "bettering the breed" is used too loosely. Picking up a pair of rabbits, regardless of their quality, and breeding them isn't bettering the breed...but it's often used as a little quote on websites to justify breeding programs.

Improving a breed is a combined effort among the entire community of registered breeders. As one herd improves, other breeders are driven to catch up. This continued competition is a fun way to meet new people and enjoy a weekend together, but it also moves the whole breed forward. If everyone is concerned about eliminating malocclusion in Holland Lops, the gene pool will become less and less prone to genetic malocclusion, for example.

*Is this not how the breeds were first made?*

Mixed breeding, you mean? Yes, breeds were mixed to create new breeds. But new breeds didn't come from one person who owned three rabbits of varying types.

Creating new breeds is an extensive process. It takes a large number of rabbits, precise records and a specific plan to get started. You'd probably be looking at a few decades worth of breeding before you have a "prototype" consistent enough to begin the acceptance process. Then the acceptance process takes many years too.

An example here are Lionheads, which are now breeding more consistently and have been around for many years. They're still not an accepted breed, and may still have a long way to go. Even after all this time, they don't breed true on the whole. Most of the consistency you see is within those large herds, operated by long-time, dedicated, and experienced breeders.

I respect the enthusiasm of those who wish to create new breeds. But sometimes I think people see it as easy as breeding a Mini Rex to a Holland Lop and creating a little lop with rex fur. That's not exactly how it works.

*Why cant it try and make new breeds by breeding mixed breed rabbits?*

You could do that. But like I explained above, it's not common that people with this goal in mind are serious enough about the end result to follow through with it. Creating a new breed (as in, a breed that eventually breeds true and becomes recognized by the ARBA) has the potential to take most of a lifetime of work, really.

Lionheads have been in the U.S. since the early 2000's and were worked in Belgium and Europe for a long time (from the information we have) before that. Possibly decades before what was originally believed. As of now, they have two more years to present at convention for the chance to become a recognized breed. Failing that, the whole recognition process starts again. I think the presentation process can take 3-5 years total, if I'm remembering right.

*What about breeding pet store rabbits? Or rescues?*

Nope, nope, nope. I will reconsider my "nope" if someone can offer a valid reason to breed either group.

*Brother and sisters?*

You can breed brothers and sisters, but it's risky. Linebreeding closely can improve traits to some extent, but there is also the potential to double up on poor traits. In my experience, brothers and sisters often have very similar strengths and weaknesses, so they simply won't make a good breeding pair.

Will breeding a brother and sister make a kit with eight legs and four eyeballs? No.

*How can we ensure high quality standards and the health of rabbits that are being bred? What issues and health problems/concerns can arise if people don't research these things?*

It's impossible to ensure anything 100% when you're breeding animals. As much as we know about genetics, it's also a very mysterious thing. Recessive genes can hide for generations before a problem pops up unexpectedly.

The importance of having a history of your breeding rabbits and keeping records is to lessen the risk of pulling undesirable traits into the gene pool. We can't know for certain what will show up in the nestbox, but we can know for certain that we took every precaution possible to prevent problems.

---

Whew! That was a marathon. I hope it helps.


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## Watermelons

Thanks for your contribution Julie! That's so much more then I thought I would get out of this post! That's pretty sticky worthy.
I would love to use this post/those answers when we meet new breeders on the forum who may not understand what everything is truly about.


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## OakRidgeRabbits

You're welcome! I feel like even that long novel of a post only touches on the basics. I'm happy to expand on certain parts or explain more clearly, if or where it's needed.

With that being said, I am still always learning...there is never a point where that stops! I think that's the most important thing to relay to those who are considering the start of a breeding program. Little can be accomplished with a pair or trio of pets that are bred once a year, regardless of the quality of the rabbits. Raising rabbits does required larger numbers, years of dedication, and hard work. It's a serious project that takes extensive knowledge and experience...something you can only gain with time!


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## Troller

Can behavior be mentioned? I know a lot of breeders mention besides type and color they also work on temperment. That breeding good tempered rabbits generally continue the behavior down the line.


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## BlueGiants

That was great Julie! We all seem to appreciate different breeds with different traits... really big rabbits, really small rabbits... long haired rabbits, short haired rabbits, up ears/floppy ears, calm or active, etc. Over hundreds of years, we have definitely manipulated the genetics within the rabbit, to create what pleases us, whether for pet, show, fur, etc.. Without maintaining those differences (pure breeding), after a fairly short time, all rabbits would revert back to what Mother nature provides in the wild. All recessive genes would fade away and only dominant genes would prevail. 

As far as knowing the "history" of a rabbit, so may problems in rabbits are genetically linked. Malocclusion (teeth problems), hooked spine, Max Factor, Wry tail, Eye cataracts and heart and bone problems are a few health problems that can be inherited from the parents. So why deliberately breed animals that would (could or might) propagate more problems? Knowing what's behind a pair of rabbits will give you a really good idea of what to expect out of a breeding. (And I'm a strong proponent of only breeding Rabbits of the best temperament!)

Responsible, intelligent Breeding involves knowing the breed you are working with, knowing what can go wrong and doing everything you can to avoid the bad issues. Of course, not all humans are intelligent OR responsible.


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## RabbitGirl101

http://rabbitranching.wordpress.com/2013/06/24/why/
This is my answer also what oakridgerabbits said (she also wrote the blog, but it is so beautifully said)


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## RabbitGirl101

So I decided to make an answer I wrote myself. I've only been breeding for 4-5 years so some of my info may be off, but hey, I'm still learning! You learn every single day when you raise rabbits.

I'm going to answer a few questions the rest I feel that have already been answered I'll put answered under them.

Why is it so important to know the genetic history of the rabbits you're breeding?
Answered


What about the health history?
This is pretty obvious, why would you want to breed unhealthy rabbits to produce more unhealthy rabbits with a bunch of diseases? It makes no sense. It kind of like saying I'm going to breed splay leg and malocclusion into my herd because the rabbits has nice type otherwise. No reputable breeder will breed an unhealthy rabbit with a genetic disease or problem. I know a lot of breed cull the rabbits or sell as pets. Like Oak ridge rabbits said I would question the breedings of a breeder who bred unhealthy rabbits.


What about rabbits with poor conformation? Pinched hindquarters for example, and any other reasons.
Answered


What can happen if you breed rabbits with unknown histories?
Answered


How are we bettering the breed if we do this? Answered


Is this not how the breeds were first made? Answered


Why cant it try and make new breeds by breeding mixed breed rabbits?
*Most* people who are trying to get a breed recognized have been raising rabbits for years. You can't just get two rabbits breed them and expect to create a new breed. Getting a breed recognized is a long process. Look at the lionheads, they have been here since the early 2000's and they still aren't recognized. When you try to get a new breed accepted into ARBA you have to get a COD (certificate of development) you need to have a full standard written out (and your rabbits have to match the standard) and you have to do a presentation. You have 5 years to pass a rabbit, and you have 3 attempts at each presentation. You need to pass 3 presentations in order to get the breed recognized. With Theresa ,who is currently trying to get the lionheads recognized, she passed her first presentation, failed her 2nd presentation 1st try, passed her second presentation 2nd try, and this year is attempting her 3 presentation 1st try (I have high hopes they will get recognized) If she fails then she has one more try next year and if she doesnt pass that presentation, we have to start all over in trying to get them recognized. Theresa will hopefully get the breed recognized as her rabbits are spectacular, but when they pass(which they will) they will only be recognized in the Tort and REW varieties, Which means any other color has to go through another process to get that color accepted into the breed. As you can see it is a long process just to get the rabbit recognized and that doesn't even include the time it takes to make the breed, it would take 3 generations just to get a purebred rabbit and many more generations to get the desired look your striving for. People dedicate there life to making a breed recognized, it takes many decades. 

So if you wanted to create a new breed you would basically spend decades on trying to get the breed you want and you would need to be very organized and dedicated. 
What about breeding pet store rabbits? Or rescues?
Never, ever, should you do this cross, the rabbits are in a pet store for a reason they most likely will have something wrong with them and they are listed as pets because they were not thought to be breeding quality. Most rescues are spayed and neutered and they shouldnt be bred because most have had health issues and should just got to pet homes. There is no valid reason to breed pet store rabbits and rescues when you can go out purchase nice rabbits with good genetics and produce healthy and nice offspring. 

Brother and sisters? You can do inbreeding but you have to be very careful with how far you inbreed. I bred a mother to her son once and I got a litter of 5 I had no health issues and the litter turned out to be amazing with great type! (One of the doe's I kept is unstoppable on the show table) However when I breed the same son to his sister their offspring ended up being a peanut ( I didn't breed them rather the buck decided the divider was getting in the way of his lady) I don't recommend doing this cross unless you have researched this type of breeding and you are familiar with your lines.

When you breed a rabbit you should breed it to better the breed not to just breed. 
Oakridge rabbits really explained everything but I wanted to add some of my own input


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## majorv

Okay, I'm beginning to think I shouldn't post on this thread...last night we lost power when I started my reply, then tonight my battery died as I was almost finished! :rollseyes

Good responses have already been made so I'll just throw in a little bit. Correct conformation can be very important to the rabbit's health. Pinched hindquarters can make it difficult for a doe to kindle as well as cause possible feet problems. Straight teeth are important because if you keep/use a rabbit born with misaligned teeth you not only must deal with trimming them for the rest of the rabbit's life but you could easily carry this trait down to the offspring. When breeding, it's important to learn which problems are genetic and which aren't. Even then, sometimes, you can't be sure.

Temperament, in our experience, can be carried down to the offspring to some extent. Some breeds have a reputation for biting and being crazy. Our Britannia Petite, though, came from a breeder who handled her rabbits and bred not only for quality but for good temperament. He's a sweetie, but the doe given to us came from someone who wasn't nearly as careful in her breeding. She was cage aggressive and would bite. It's interesting that the bucks in their litter turned out to be as nice as their dad and the does started becoming like their mom...and this was after we made a real effort to handle them a lot while they were young. I'm not saying that temperament can't be changed, but it seems to take time and possibly bringing in other lines who have good termperament.

Yay, I actually finished my post!


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## ladysown

*Why is it so important to know the genetic history of the rabbits you're breeding?*

Knowing what is in a rabbit's background helps you to make better choices for what you want to breed, or even if you want to breed.

*
What about the health history?
*
This tells you what weaknesses run in a rabbits lines. Just like when you go to the doctor they want to know what types of illnesses your family has to deal with. It helps them know sometimes what to watch out for with you. 

I personally do not breed a rabbit who has EVER been sick. Doesn't matter to me what it might have been sick with. Even factors beyond perhaps the rabbits control. But if rabbit A gets mites and rabbits B-J don't... I AM NOT breeding rabbit A even if it's the best in the bunch. Why would I want to pass that predisposition down to other animals? I want to breed for strong healthy animals and I cannot for the life of me understand why people put Type before health ever.

*What about rabbits with poor conformation? Pinched hindquarters for example, and any other reasons.*

To me it depends on what the poor conformation is. Too long? Too Short? Pinched? Oversized? Some conformation issues affect how the the rabbit will produce... a rabbit with a pinched hindend will have more difficulties producing youngsters... which is life threatening for her AND her kits. You want to build a rabbit that is overall healthy and whose body will stand up to the tests of time.

*What can happen if you breed rabbits with unknown histories?*

You will get rabbits.  Seriously. You have to look at the rabbits involved before breeding. You don't HAVE TO have pedigreed rabbits. You don't HAVE TO have their history. What you do HAVE TO do is look hard at the rabbits involved. Are they healthy? Have they ever been sick under your care? Do they have conformation issues that affect overall health ... Ie pinched hindquarters. If you don't know their histories, what you are going to end up with is surprises. Some folks don't like surprises... surprises can give you unthrifty rabbits, ugly rabbits (yes, surprisingly there are UGLY rabbits), surprises can give you unwanted genetic defects and so forth. Not saying you won't get genetic defects in pedigreed or rabbits with a known history.. but you are better able to predict them.

*How are we bettering the breed if we do this?*

You better the breed by looking hard at the rabbits you have. You always, always keep the best and get rid of the rest. It's what good breeders do. 

One of the big issues I have in the area that I live in.. and please... DO NOT be offended by this... is that poor breeders will "pet out" their sick rabbits. They give away to pet homes rabbits under their care who are ill. So they've taken a rabbit, ill, moved him to a new environment, where the stress will make the rabbit more susceptible to getting MORE ill. That sick rabbit should either be culled terminally OR made well again under good care and then kept in an area far away from the healthy rabbits and ONLY rehomed if it can safely be done so. NOT given away to a pet home. Just like those who sell rabbits with bad teeth. DON"T do it!

As a breeder I've had people contact me saying.. well I've got a bunny here with bad teeth and I just love him and I want to breed him so I can get another just like him. Or my bunny has pasturella... can I breed him... he came from a breeder home and I want another just like him. It drives me crazy... breeders should care the most for their animals. They should want what is long term best... not just discarding the sick animals because they don't want to deal with them any more.

(okay, mini rant over).

Is this not how the breeds were first made?
Why cant it try and make new breeds by breeding mixed breed rabbits?
What about breeding pet store rabbits? Or rescues?
Brother and sisters?

I personally don't care if you breed mutt A to mutt B. I don't care. Sometimes mixed breed bunnies are cute and make for some excellent pets. I also don't care if you breed purebred A to purebred B. 

What I Care about is.
1. did you take a close look at what you are breeding? Have they always been healthy? Are they physically sound?
2. what will you do with resultant offspring if they don't sell and you don't have room to keep them? And your plan had better not be
a. release them into the wild
b. give them away free (ooh... way to make an animal disposable)
c. dump them wherever you can.
---- if you bred them... until they are rehomed...they ARE your responsibility.
3. what are you hoping to achieve? Experience the miracle of life? Make some quick dollars so you can afford to spay/neuter? better the breed? Try to reproduce exactly what you have (that's a bit of a gamble)? What is your motivation and you need to think this one through in light of Point 2.
4. are you aware that purebred animals sell more easily than mixes?
5. what will you do if you breed A to B and get genetic or immunological issues? How will you deal with that?


How can we ensure high quality standards and the health of rabbits that are being bred? What issues and health problems/concerns can arise if people don't research these things?

The thing is.... you can't predict everything. You get throw backs that go back generations. I had new zealands I was breeding at one point and I got angora type coats on some of the offspring. It was like HUH???? And then I find out generations back angoras were used in the line to strengthen a trait and here it is years later an angora type coat shows up. You can't predict everything.

BUT if you start with known stock you have a better chance at predicting what will happen.

GOOD breeders will put the health of their rabbits BEFORE breeding. Not all rabbits should be bred.

People looking in should be aware that there are as many ways of raising rabbits as there are people raising them and what matters is.

1. are the rabbits healthy? Clean eyes, trimmed nails, clean rear ends? Healthy feet? no abscesses, no snot, no nothing. Are they in good shape? If breeding them.... have they always been healthy? Are they temperamentally sound? Are they in shape and type able to be bred?

2. are they fed on a daily basis? This does not mean do they have food in front of them 24/7. It's not good for animals to have food in front of them all the time... it encourages them to be fat, it encourages them to be lazy.

3. do they have sufficient room to move around. Turn, lay down, stand up straight and such like.

THAT is what matters in the care of them. All the rest is window dressing and we need to be accepting of the fact that not everyone does it all the same.


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## ChloeLovesRabbits

Can you show spayed or neutered rabbits in 4-H


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## OakRidgeRabbits

You can't show spayed or neutered rabbits anywhere, unless there is a designated pet class.


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## Beesandbuns

Though this is an old post I wanted to clarify, in some areas if you have a pet rabbit project you can show spayed and neutured rabbits there. You should double check with your local key leaders and extention agents.


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