# Keep Leonidas (my rat) in your thoughts.



## undergunfire (Mar 4, 2008)

I think Leonidas has a tumor . He is only 1 years old. I noticed it tonight when I had to pick him up to put him into his cage after play time...he normally runs back into his cage, as I "herd" them in.

He hates being picked up, so I try not to pick him up as he stuggles so much and it's not worth stressing him out so much.

I've left a post on a rat forum asking how much an x-ray and a tumor removal on a rat can add up to, and if they think it really could be a tumor. I know it can run into the hundreds, which would blow out part of mine and Ryan's savings for our house in June.

I don't trust the vets here to perform a tumor removal. I only trust them with the common URI, head tilt, ect...also neuters (as they are simple). I doubt Ryan would drive me to a rat vet 2 1/2 hours away...and the trip would be too stressful for Leonidas after a surgery.

I am worried because Leonidas is always sick with URI's. His breathing is always clicky and the porphyrin (red mucus from the nose & eyes) amount is rediciulious...to the point where his fur gets stained red. I would be afraid to put him through surgery.


Keep him in your thoughts, this is very scary for me.


*EDIT: *A person on the rat forum told me it definitely sounds like a tumor and an x-ray is not needed...and that it would be up to the vet to decide if he is healthy enough for surgery. I don't know how I will find a vet I can trust to do the surgery in this town.....


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## Alexah (Mar 4, 2008)

Oh, Amy, I'm so very sorry to hear about Leonidas. I'm definitely not a rat person, but I've learned a lot through your posts and have come to respect rats and the people who love them. I wish I could offer some experience or advice, but instead, all I've got are prayers.

ray:- Leonidas, I hope you are pain free, comfortable, and secure in the fact that you're loved and cared for. I'll be pulling for you...you're in my thoughts and prayers tonight.

And, Amy, I really hope you can figure something out that both you and Ryan are comfortable with. You, too, will be in my thoughts tonight and until we hear more. 

- Alexah


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## Orchid (Mar 5, 2008)

I'm sorry to hear this...I will keep you guys in my thoughts...


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## undergunfire (Mar 5, 2008)

Another person told me it could be a late forming neuter abcess or an abcess in general. I wonder if this is the case....he recently (about a month ago) got put into the cage with the other three boys...he could have gotten beat up. I never saw a cut on him or anything, though.

I'm going to have to call vets tomorrow. I hope this isn't very costly, but it's expected...I have pet rats...they are not cheap.


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## SnowyShiloh (Mar 5, 2008)

Aw, I'm so sorry, Amy  I hope it's something simple that can be fixed easily. Poor Leonidas. This is why I dread ratties getting old, and it happens so darn fast. I'm lucky that mine are all still quite spritely and hyper and healthy, but of course I lost Cranberry a few weeks ago. Please keep us updated about Leonidas!


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## Leaf (Mar 5, 2008)

Poor guy! I'm hoping for the best!


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## undergunfire (Mar 5, 2008)

Shiloh you may have already read this on the rat forum....

But the rat forum thinks Leo might have a late forming neuter abscess, as he was neutered in mid-December. They also think it might be an abscess from fights....I did just put Leo in with the other boys a month ago...so it is possible.


A person on the rat forum told me to put Leonidas in the sink with warm water...and this will bring the abscess to a head (if it is one)...where it will then burst.

Has anyone heard of that before? How does warm water bring it to a head?



I am going to phone vets today anyway and see if I can get him an appointment this Saturday or next Saturday....I can't go to the vet during the week unless it's an absolute emergency because I can't afford the time off work....and neither can my work.

Now, since vets here stink when it comes to pet rats and I am sick of going to the vet with my rats to have them weight them and take my word for things. I refuse to pay $40 again for them to take my word for things...that isn't right. I want to try a new "exotics" vet this time, but if they don't perform the FULL exam and get my money's worth...can I refuse to pay? This vet charges $48, which is rediciulious to waste, if they won't do the whole exam.


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## Leaf (Mar 5, 2008)

I dont know about soaking it, but I had a kitten brought in that couldnt look down because its abscess was so large under the chin.

The owners dog often picked up the kitten and its tooth punctured the skin, creating the abscess.

I was able to wrap a warm damp washcloth around the neck - that made the skin soft enough for the wound opening to re-open.

If you havent worked with nasty before though...

Everything had to be squeezed out, down to pure blood - I ended up wrapping the kitten up and keeping it with me until I got off work (about 2 hrs later) and then I headed to the vet office.

Her neck was flushed and she was given an injection and oral antiabotics afterwards.

It was a pretty urgent situation since the kitten was severely dehydrated and had a hard time breathing due to the location of the abscess.

I was able to return her to the owners once her health was restored, so all worked out well in the end.


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## trailsend (Mar 5, 2008)

Oh no Amy! I'm so sorry about Leonidas, we will definately keep our paws crossed for him, and say a prayer.


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## Alexah (Mar 5, 2008)

While an abscess still isn't a good thing, I'm happy that Leonidas might be able to recover after some treatment.

As for abscesses "opening" when a warm compress is placed on them, that's true. Our rescue dog, Noell, has been having reactions to her spay surgery since right after Christmas. The incision keeps opening and small abscesses have been forming. Anyway, we took her to the vet about a week ago and she suggested we place a warm compress on her stomach once a day to help the abscess come to a head. Once it comes to a head, it can reopen and drain without having to be lanced (which is very painful). So far, it's been working and some of the abscesses have already drained and disappeared. And since we're only doing it once a day, it doesn't stress her very much. The warmth is soothing and she actually likes having it done now. But, I should say, she's also on an antibiotic, so that may be something you'll want to talk to a vet about.

Either way, Leonidas is still in my thoughts and prayers. Here's to hoping he makes a quick and painless recovery!

- Alexah


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## EileenH (Mar 5, 2008)

What does it feel like? Typical mammory tumors on rats are loose, like fatty tumors on dogs. Does it roll when you move it, or does it feel attached to something?

If it is a mammory tumor, a lot of people leave them be. But, they do grow and eventually might become cumbersome for him, at which point you might have to have it removed then. 

You guys are in my thoughts. I've been there with many of my rats, and it's hard.

Nobody on Goosemoose has a savvy rat vet by you? If there is any way possible to have it removed (if it's a tumor), it's easier on them to have it done when it's smaller. If it is an abscess, like everyone else said, you can use warm compresses but it won't come right to a head, and then you have to treat the open wound. I had an abscess on my bunny and it was a lot of work.

Also, I don't think you can not pay if you feel the vet doesn't do a good job. Vets offices that I have worked for have credit management companies go after people who stiff them on payment - if you & Ryan are going to be looking for a house, that will really do a number on your credit when you apply for a mortgage.

*hugs*


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## maherwoman (Mar 5, 2008)

Oh, Amy, I'm so sad to hear this about Leonidas...he's so cute and sweet.

Have I mentioned that I've had dreams about your ratties lately? They always look so happy and sweet...and you're always telling me this or that about them, and telling me what they like and dislike (food, toys, etc.). It's really interesting...

I hope he gets through this okay...he's so adorable...


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## undergunfire (Mar 5, 2008)

Thanks, you guys :hug:. This is a big help for me. We need your thoughts.


I made an appointment with Dr. Luna on Saturday the 15th....its the soonest I could get in with her. Of course, if this is an abscess, then he will be going sooner. I chose to go with her again because she really does love my rats (especially Ralphie), she is very gentle with them...and such a nice lady. I am going to be sure she does a FULL exam this time, to get my money's worth. I also called the "exotics" vet in town and they don't take new clients on Saturdays. So, I'll stick with Dr. Luna.

I made a mistake...the bunnies were neutered in mid-December and the rats were neutered on October 30th. So, I am doubting this to be a late forming neuter abcess (and so is goosemoose).

If it is an abscess, then it was probably formed because I put Leonidas in with the other three boys a month ago, when we got the new SP Exotics cage. Fights probably happened, even thought I didn't notice a cut or a bite on Leonidas.


*Eileen*.......The "tumor" isn't loose, it's definitely "attached" to something. Leo isn't in pain at all, still eating, drinking, playing, ect. When I push on the area he doesn't squeak or show that he is in pain.
I know that Dearpie and a few others on Goosemoose live in the Phoenix area, but that is 2 1/2 hours away from me. If I was to choose a vet there to do the surgery (if it is a tumor)...then it would absolutely need to be on a Saturday and he would need to come home that same day. I am not even sure if we could make it down there either, as we have to borrow Ryan's mom's van to make the trip...and she wouldn't allow us to borrow it last weekend to go down to PHX because she doesn't want to put "the extra miles on it". Our car would die on the way....mountains and heat = no good for the Explorer.



I am thinking that sticking him in the sink with warm water is going to stress him out way too much, so I am going to heat up the corn heating pad in the microwave and place in on that while I watch tv...I think we will both be more comfortable that way.


My poor guy. I am so stressed, work is a killer....I worked 30 hours the past 3 days and still need to work tomorrow and Friday.

I'll update you guys in an hour-ish....so see if anything happened with the area after putting the heating pad on it.


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## XxMontanaxX (Mar 5, 2008)

Poor Leo...I wish there was something I could do. I sure hope he will be ok soon. ray:

And I'm sorry you are so stressed. Hope everything chills out soon! :hug:


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## undergunfire (Mar 5, 2008)

Well, the heating pad didn't work out well. I think I heated it for too long and got some popcorn. So, I let it cool a bit, then tried to hold Leo on it.....eh....he wouldn't sit still.

I had to fill up the tub a bit with warm water and put him in it. He threw a fit, my arms are scratched and vleeding, and I am soaking wet...as is he. I kept him in the tub for 20 minutes, then felt horrible for him....so I took him out and held him in a towel for a while, while he dried off. 

While he was wet, I looked at the "mystery" area...and didn't see a scar, cut, nothing. I felt the area and it is indeed "attached" (I think, I am not good at this?). It's got to be a tumor and it's about the size of a quarter...but it doesn't stick out of his body at all....if you hold him in a "standing position", he looks normal.

So, I am really doubting this to be a abscess?


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## Bo B Bunny (Mar 5, 2008)

Oh no 

I sure hope he does ok. I wish he could get into see her sooner! I hate waiting!


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## undergunfire (Mar 5, 2008)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> Oh no
> 
> I sure hope he does ok. I wish he could get into see her sooner! I hate waiting!



Me too, but getting in sooner doesn't seem possible possible. Dr. Luna is only at the clinic every other Saturday (figuers, every time I need her she isn't in). I could get an appointment this week if I was put on a "waiting list", possibly, but work has both Ryan and I super busy. I also don't drive. I might have to ask Ryan's mom if she can bring me to see Dr. Luna on Monday...if I can get in.

My only other option would be to take a chance and see if I can get into another vet this Saturday...one who might not be very experienced. Even if they aren't rat experienced, they should be able to tell if it's a tumor by feeling? And if a semi-experienced or not experienced with rats...and comfirm it a tumor...I'll be able to schedual him a surgery with a vet? I'd much rather work 100% with Dr. Luna right now though. Ugh.


I need to think about it tonight, arg, stress. So much for my diet! I just ate huge piece of chocolate cake. Why can't my comfort be carrot sticks?


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## Bo B Bunny (Mar 5, 2008)

Carrots just don't say comfort like a nice soft piece of chocolate cake!

I guess one week isn't going to change much but then again rats tumors do grow sometimes fast don't they.

Oh man


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## TinysMom (Mar 5, 2008)

Amy,

I know nothing about rats - and don't normally care for them.

But I want you to know that I'm praying for you folks and for Leonidas and sending good thoughts your way.

Don't feel bad if you eat something to relieve the stress - it is better than doing something like putting your fist through a wall or whatever...

I'll be watching this thread and keeping my fingers crossed...

Peg


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## undergunfire (Mar 6, 2008)

Thank you, Peg...I really appreciate it :hug:.


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## YukonDaisy (Mar 6, 2008)

Sorry to hear about Leonidas. I hope it's nothing serious. We'll keep him in our thoughs.

~Diana


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## mouse_chalk (Mar 6, 2008)

Aww Amy I'm sorry to hear this, poor Leonidas 

I'll be thinking of him and you guys and really hoping he'll get better!

:hug:

Jen xx


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## undergunfire (Mar 6, 2008)

Thank you, every one :hug2:.


No luck with other vets. I am sticking with Dr. Luna on Saturday the 15th at 12 noon. I feel more comfortable with her seeing him.

Leo is still doing just fine. He was quite the naughty boy today while he played around the bedroom. I have too do head counts every 5 minutes, to make sure all four boys aren't getting into trouble.


I'm going to do a photoshoot this weekend with the bunnies and rats (seperately).


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## undergunfire (Mar 14, 2008)

I am getting more and more nervous of Leo's vet appt. this Saturday at noon. I felt his area tonight after not feeling it for a while and notice that the lump isn't as large as it was before. When I picked him up and first noticed the lump, it was very noticeable to the touch, but tonight when I picked him up I didn't feel it right away and had to "search" for it.

This leads me to beleive that maybe it is an abscess? I still can't see an opening, though.



Either way...I am prepairing myself for the worst on Saturday, in case something bad is to come of this. I'm doing a huge photo shoot tomorrow night, too.

I just have bad feelings that if it is a tumor, then he won't make it through a surgery because of his chronic respiratory issues. I have to think of his life and comfort, before my selfishness. I will really be torn if I chose to go through a surgery (that I can now hardly afford, as well)....and he dies during it...never having a chance because of his URI's.

I can't help but think of "the all", before I walk into that vet's office. When I brought my past heart rat in...I thought she would make it out just fine while we were sitting in the waiting area. A half hour later....I was walking out in tears with my sweet baby in a small box.


Please pray that it is an abscess, since it did decrease in size :nerves1.


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## SnowyShiloh (Mar 14, 2008)

Amy, I really hope it is an abscess! That seems like a good sign that it's shrinking. Still very scary though  Does it seem to be causing him any distress? If the vet thought my rat might die during a surgery, I probably wouldn't do it either and just let the ratty live out his life as long as he seems comfortable and happy, then help him along at the end if need be. So sad  Ratties should live longer and I too hope he doesn't die soon. If he does though, maybe it's a teeny tiny comfort to know Cranberry and Peppermint and Fayl will be waiting in heaven to play with him and snuggle.


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## undergunfire (Mar 15, 2008)

Leo is still eating and being his normal self. I thought about it and decided I have worried a lot for nothing. There is no reason for him to be PTS any time soon, as he is still himself. 

If he was really sick, then the other guys in the cage wouldn't be hanging around him because they would think a preditor would snatch them all up (instinct). Leo also would be acting different, as well. When I push or squeeze on the area...he doesn't flinch or show pain...so I really think it's a tumor.

We are going to see Dr. Luna at noon today (Saturday), but if it is definitely a tumor...I will not be going through with a surgery. I feel like Leo still has tons of life left in him and he is doing awesome. I don't want to put him through a surgery, even if Dr. Luna says it is okay. I will know when it is "his time to go" and when it comes...he will be helped to rattie heaven, but I know in mind and in heart....he has tons of life left here with me. He's playing and a being a crazy guy, just like usual and I would hate for something to happen to him in a surgery and lose him...when he could have had another year of life left other-wise. I'm going to do what is best for him and I think what is best is for him to stay with his buddies up until he is ready to leave us.

Most rats do just fine with a tumor, as long as the size is not affecting their mobility, or they are in pain, or it's cancerous. Leo is not near this point and I doubt it is a cancerous tumor. 

I hope everyone can understand and I'll let you all know how the appointment goes tomorrow. I have good feelings that I am correct, that it is a tumor.




p.s....right now my four adult sized sweeties and stuffed into one 7 inch by 7 inch hammock sharing their homemade food mixture .


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## EileenH (Mar 15, 2008)

You're smart to be prepared for it all,and to have a well-thought out plan. I totally understand what you're saying about as long as he's still eating & happy, leave him be.

I'll be thinking of you guys.


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## XxMontanaxX (Mar 15, 2008)

ray:


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## undergunfire (Mar 15, 2008)

My Leo-Skeo is just fine . 

Yes, it is a tumor...I forgot what kind (mamaramy, maybe? I really can't remember) :baghead...but I was happy to hear that he will be fine.

We all decided that it is best for him to "live with it" and he will have many more months with me. He is on a round of Baytril for a URI, too.

Dr. Luna just said to watch the area and feel it every few days to watch for growth.


I've been reading online about a lot of rats that have lived awesome lives with tumors, so it is very comforting to read.


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## XxMontanaxX (Mar 15, 2008)

Horray! I'm so happy to hear he's going to be ok! :hug:


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## EileenH (Mar 15, 2008)

Awww that is great! I'm very happy for your guys.


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## SnowyShiloh (Mar 15, 2008)

I'm so relieved! Hopefully the tumor won't grow bigger and it won't impede him in any way. How are you feeling after getting the news?


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## undergunfire (Mar 15, 2008)

I am very happy that Leo will be okay and be with me for a while longer...we never know how long with rats.

So many good things are happening to Ryan, the pets, and I :biggrin2:.


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