# preventative antibiotics after a bunny died from pneumonia



## SnowyShiloh (Apr 1, 2012)

Background: Our sweet Nomi girl died yesterday of pneumonia (you can see her thread in the Rainbow Bridge section). The death was a complete surprise. I have no idea how she got sick. Her cage is kept upstairs in our warm (but not too warm) and very far from humid apartment (winter in Interior Alaska is notoriously dry). Her cage was immaculate. In all honesty, I wouldn't have felt too weird about eating something off the floor of her cage because it was so clean. The other buns are all in our living room and she last had contact with Max and Macie at the end of February. 

Because we have other bunnies, we had a necropsy done on Nomi. The vet said her lungs had granulomas in them and she looked at a slide under a microscope and saw rod shaped bacteria. She is sending a sample to a lab to be examined so they can tell us what kind of bacteria it is. As a preventative, we want to put the other bunnies on an antibiotic. Like I said, none of them are showing symptoms, but after the first couple weeks of having Nomi (got her in January), I didn't wash my hands between touching her and touching our other bunnies. None of the other bunnies are showing signs of anything (though ever single sneeze puts me on edge, even though Nomi did not sneeze at all when she was sick). Ned IS having some issues maintaining his weight, but he's had this before and a vet visit was inconclusive, we think he may just be getting old (his estimated age is 5 years but he could be older). I'm feeding him extra and supplementing him with oats every day and that's helping him keep the weight on. I am especially worried that Ned could be more susceptible to germies or that he could be in the early phases of fighting off the nasty that killed our Nomi.

So, more to the point. Does giving preventative antibiotics to the buns sound like a good idea? I will give them Benebac, too. The vet (who is not especially experienced with bunnies unfortunately, our regular bunny vet is not working yesterday or today) wants to prescribe 3 weeks of Baytril and possibly switch to another antibiotic once we figure out what Nomi had. I have my doubts about Baytril being effective but that's what she wants to start with. The clinic just opened at noon (45 minutes ago) and I called ASAP and she's calling me back so I can give her the weights of our bunnies.

What do knowledgeable bunny folk think? About giving preventative antibiotics, Baytril (including how long to give it), and Ned?

Thanks so much! Let's hope this will prevent my other babies from getting sick. I'm thankful now that she was far away from them, but you never know.


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## LakeCondo (Apr 1, 2012)

I don't know. If your regular vet will be back Monday or even Tuesday, I think I'd wait. Especially as you don't yet know the bacterium. If Nomi had been in contact with the others, it'd be another matter.


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## TinksMama (Apr 1, 2012)

I would spray down all the cages, toys, dishes and your other bunny equipment with a bleach & water solution. This will kill all the bacteria on them and help prevent spreading it. If any bunnies are getting sick quarantine them right away, if you can wash your hands in between handling or caring for each bunny (I know it sounds like a pain, but better safe than sorry!). I personally try not to use antibiotics with my bunnies, instead I use herbs to boost their immune system, and herbal stuff to help them fight off infection. If you'd like some more info on the herbal stuff PM me.


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## ZRabbits (Apr 2, 2012)

I wouldn't go the "preventive antibiotic" route. Antibiotic is not used as a preventive medicine anywhere. Using it this way will build up immunity to it and then you are out of luck when your bunny really needs it. 

I would thoroughly clean Nomi cage with a bleach and water solution. Then observe your other bunnies, and if one does get sick than use antibiotics. 

And I would wait until I talked to your Rabbit Savvy Vet regarding the administering of any antibiotics. I know you are totally freaked over Nomi's sudden passing, I would be too, but I would take this avenue slow and make sure after talking to your Regular Vet before I would start administering any antibiotic. 

Antibiotic is a good medical fix, not a prevention. 

K


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## Nela (Apr 2, 2012)

I wouldn't without knowing the cause. *hugs*


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## Watermelons (Apr 2, 2012)

Youre better off cleaning. 
Pneumonia can be more then just what antibiotics are able to deal with. It could be bacterial, viral, fungal, etc. And antibiotics will only help with one of those if you have done a culture on each rabbit. Bacteria can still be present in any type of pneumonia, it just doesn't necessarily mean its the cause. And each person or rabbit in this case that shares say... a room, may all have different types of pneumonia.

Stick with the probiotics and immune support but stay away from the antibiotics unless you actually have to give them, then when its time, do a culture to see what is actually growing in there. The more often you get antibiotics blindly perscribed, the more issues you will have. 

Bleach everything.


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## SnowyShiloh (Apr 2, 2012)

Everyone brings up very good points, thanks for being the voice of reason. I don't like overuse of antibiotics for the reasons everyone already mentioned, I guess in my fear it was hard to be rational especially when the veterinarian strongly suggested antibiotics for the others. It's hard not to want to leap into action to do anything to prevent further sickness. The regular vet will be in today so I will call her and ask what she thinks. The regular vet is the owner of the clinic that the other vet treated them at (if that makes sense) so she can talk to the vet that did the necropsy and everything. We did already come home with a great big very pricy bottle of antibiotics yesterday but at least I'll have it on hand if I need it or something.

I've already gone crazy disinfecting everything possible. It's a little tough to do the bleach solution on bigger things like cages because I can't take them outside (3 degrees today, water would freeze) and we don't have a bath tub, but I'm working around it. The good thing at least is that Nomi's cage was upstairs and away from the other bunnies. Any spread of germs would have come from my clothing (holding her and then holding the other bunnies) or my hands.

My plan is:

-talk to regular vet when I get home from class
-wait for the results of Nomi's lung sample that was sent to the lab
-continue to disinfect everything I can think of
-watch closely for signs of illness
-weekly weigh ins for buns
-wash hands before, after, and between handling bunnies and try to avoid holding them to my clothes for the time being

I'm also considering putting each bunny's food into his or her own big plastic bag so I'm not scooping it out of a communal bag. Usually I use a measuring cup and the bunnies like to stick their faces in the cup, but I won't do that. We just got a new bag of food last weekend and thankfully Nomi was still eating from the previous bag so she hasn't been around the new food.


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## Samara (Apr 2, 2012)

Watermelons wrote:


> Youre better off cleaning.
> Pneumonia can be more then just what antibiotics are able to deal with. It could be bacterial, viral, fungal, etc. And antibiotics will only help with one of those if you have done a culture on each rabbit.Â  Bacteria can still be present in any type of pneumonia, it just doesn't necessarily mean its the cause.Â  And each person or rabbit in this case that shares say... a room, may all have different types of pneumonia.
> 
> Stick with the probiotics and immune support but stay away from the antibiotics unless you actually have to give them, then when its time, do a culture to see what is actually growing in there. The more often you get antibiotics blindly perscribed, the more issues you will have.
> ...




^ THIS.


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## LakeCondo (Apr 3, 2012)

Your plan sounds excellent.


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## Samara (Apr 3, 2012)

Agreed. Keep us posted!


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## SnowyShiloh (Apr 4, 2012)

Urgh, still haven't heard back from the vet. Another vet from the clinic called me today (she knows nothing about bunnies) and said the vet is not in today.

Okay this is a ridiculous question, but how many times per day does the average healthy bunny sneeze? I'm being all hyper vigilant and notice every single little sneeze now. Of course in the past I would have noted excessive sneezing but I'm on edge now so notice everything. Nomi didn't even sneeze but who knows. 

Good news is that so far everyone seems healthy. Rory is snuggled with me on the couch and licking me.


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## Samara (Apr 4, 2012)

My guys sneeze about 7 or 8 times a day...I've been known to yell an errant BLESS YOU! up the stairs or down. I have no idea if this is normal. My yelling OR their sneezing


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## ZRabbits (Apr 4, 2012)

I have bunny sneezes here too. Pollen levels are very high here. As long as there is no discharge from eyes or nose, that's probably what it is, allergies. Or a little dust. 

Hoping you hear from your Regular Vet soon. I know I'd be on edge and I still am with after going through what we did with Neville. Every little thing makes you jump. Once you hear from your Vet, you will feel better. 

K


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## Watermelons (Apr 4, 2012)

Put your ear to their chest, what do you hear when they breathe?


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## Samara (Apr 4, 2012)

(HEE HOO HEE HOO....)


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## SnowyShiloh (Apr 4, 2012)

Samara, you made me laugh  I saw your reply before I saw Watermelons so I was wondering what in the world, then got the context  I have a stethoscope so I will listen to their longs when I get home from class this afternoon!


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## Samara (Apr 4, 2012)

:thumbup


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## SnowyShiloh (Apr 4, 2012)

Finally heard back from the regular vet (who I consider to be a good bunny vet- not the best in the world, but the best within a few hundred miles) and she said to continue the antibiotics until we find out what Nomi had. Should I be bad and go against doctors' orders? They all got the first dose but then I stopped for reasons you all gave (and that I felt made sense). 

She looked over Nomi's necropsy results (the other vet did the necropsy) and said she suspects pasteurella and that it's very nasty. She said if everyone is still healthy in about 10 days they probably won't get sick because pasteurella has an incubation phase (or whatever) of 7-10 days. I thought though that pasteurella was one of those things that a lot of bunnies are exposed to and don't get sick from? And that some can be lifelong carriers without showing signs? She did say that bunnies can have it but not show signs.

I listened to everyone's lungs. Heard lots of heart beats (and some chewing and tummy rumbles) but thankfully nothing icky. I did hear a whoosh when Rory, Max, and Ned took big breaths but the vet said the whoosh is okay. She said they will hold their breaths sometimes when you put the stethoscope on them so that may be why I didn't hear anything on the girls. I will listen to their lungs every day! 

Ned's heart was beating a lot faster than the others' but I think it was because he went last and was bouncing around the cage, probably because he thought I was handing out treats. Always the optimist, that one!


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## SnowyShiloh (Apr 4, 2012)

Just read this very detailed and informative article about pasteurella: http://www.lbah.com/rabbits/pasteurella.htm

Of course I knew some about pasteurella already since it's such a common bunny thing but I wanted to read more. I'm really glad we had Nomi's sample sent to a lab so we can know exactly what caused her to get sick.

Can't help but wonder if Ned's head tilt he had last summer was from pasteurella. At the time I thought maybe it was, but we didn't find out for sure because the vets (more than one saw him) never ever saw any sign of inflammation or infection in his ears. As I mentioned upthread, Ned lost some weight recently but thankfully is plumping up again. Although we got his head tilt under control very quickly and he never became super tilted, he took 6 weeks to recover and has always kept a residual "tilt" (he actually turns his head to the right like he's looking at something, it isn't a tilt) that shows up sometimes when he's sleepy. He was doing that a bit more than usual for 2 days this weekend but has returned to his normal. Of all the bunnies I am watching him most closely for signs of illness because he seems to be the most medically fragile.


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## Nancy McClelland (Apr 4, 2012)

If you have a Veterinary School in your time zone and zip code, I'd call them and talk to some bunny savvy people for advice.


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## LakeCondo (Apr 4, 2012)

It's not being bad when you know most people disagree with what they the vets are saying. MDs have stopped doing the "preventative" anti-biotics route [with a few exceptions, maybe], but dentists & vets are lagging. Plus, vets' training included [I assume] animals raised for food, & most of those animals are given antibiotics in their feed routinely.


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## SnowyShiloh (Apr 5, 2012)

Though I do feel a twinge of guilt, I am disregarding the vet's advice and not giving the antibiotics. Maybe that's the wrong choice but it's the one I feel is right. If anyone starts acting sick, we can jump in with meds and stuff. I'm monitoring them very carefully, they're probably wondering why Mommy is up in their faces all day long!


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## ZRabbits (Apr 5, 2012)

*LakeCondo wrote: *


> It's not being bad when you know most people disagree with what they the vets are saying. MDs have stopped doing the "preventative" anti-biotics route [with a few exceptions, maybe], but dentists & vets are lagging. Plus, vets' training included [I assume] animals raised for food, & most of those animals are given antibiotics in their feed routinely.



Government standard. What are you going to do. You can't do a thing. But people raising them for their own, know what's there. Nobody knows what's in the meat or where it comes from in a supermarket. And just think it's your milk. Look what they do to milk producing cows. And with the way the laws are changing, they the government don't have to tell you. 

More and more people are raising their own food. Not just vegetables. There is livestock too. 

And who controls the Doctors, Vets, and Dentists through licenses? Federal Government. It's just the way it is. 

K


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## ZRabbits (Apr 5, 2012)

*SnowyShiloh wrote: *


> Though I do feel a twinge of guilt, I am disregarding the vet's advice and not giving the antibiotics. Maybe that's the wrong choice but it's the one I feel is right. If anyone starts acting sick, we can jump in with meds and stuff. I'm monitoring them very carefully, they're probably wondering why Mommy is up in their faces all day long!


Don't feel guilty. I wouldn't give antibiotics to a healthy animal. Just as a precaution. Nah, keep doing what you are doing. You know your bunnies. 

K


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## SnowyShiloh (Apr 5, 2012)

Darn it, it's 92 degrees in our house right now because the thermostat is broken and the furnace is cranking out the heat. It's the warmest day we've had so far this year at 46 degrees right now but the furnace is acting like it's -40. The landlord freaks out if any windows are left open (yesterday we got an angry note on our door about it). I have fans running. ALL the buns are sprawled out on their tummies because they're hot. Not exactly conducive to warding off illness :X Let's hope the fans bring down the temp!


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## Samara (Apr 5, 2012)

Try throwing some water bottles (drinking ones) in the freezer then tossing them in a pillow case for the buns to lay against. We always have bottled water on hand...we buy it in the 24 packs usually when we grocery shop. I keep 3 in the freezer just in case.


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## SnowyShiloh (Apr 5, 2012)

HOLY MOLY. Vet just called and the lab is still working on the sample of Nomi's lungs, but so far they have found E.coli! The vet said she has never heard of an animal with E.coli in the lungs. She said maybe Nomi aspirated a cecal or something. How in the world?! Like I said, my bunnies' cages are kept very clean and Nomi was an exceptionally tidy rabbit. The lab also found THREE other bacteria but they're still figuring out what they were. The vet suspects Nomi came to us with these bad things in her.

E. coli? 3 other types of bacteria? HUH?

Please don't let my other buns get sick with all these terrible things!


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## Samara (Apr 5, 2012)

What the heck?? I am speechless.


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## SnowyShiloh (Apr 5, 2012)

ME TOO! Sorry about the caps. I'm just flabbergasted. E. coli? Lungs? Wha? I did some Googling and apparently animals (dogs usually) sometimes get pneumonia from E. coli but it's rare. People can get it in their lungs too but also rare. 

I'm not freaking out or showing signs of fear to my bun buns but internally my anxiety has quadrupled. The urge to start squirting antibiotics down everyone's throat is very strong. I really, really hope we get the results on the other bacteria tomorrow and go from there.

Tomorrow I also have an extremely important interview (culmination of 4 years of college and a ton of other stuff rides on the interview) so I am a wreck. Don't care what I feel like of course, just want my babies to be okay!


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## Samara (Apr 5, 2012)

I will do some googling of my own and let you know what I come up with! I'll keep you and your buns in my thoughts till you have some answers! Holy poop!


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## LakeCondo (Apr 5, 2012)

E coli is unexpected, but other bacteria can be present in an animal's or person's body & not do any damage until something happens to the immune system & they cause harm. Or they could just have been there & not done any harm. I'd be giving probiotics, myself. The thing with medicine, it's part art as well as science.


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## SnowyShiloh (Apr 6, 2012)

I'm feeling a tiny bit less worried. I'm 27 years old but I called my mom and cried to her and she reassured me that the bun buns will probably be fine and I feel a little bit better. 

We got a whole bunch of fans blowing, Paul blocked the heat vents, and we have our inner door (to our entryway, it's not open to the outside but it's a little cooler in the entryway) wide open so it's much more tolerable in here now. I don't really care if we're making the furnace go into over drive right now, I don't want my bunnies at risk and the repair man will be here tomorrow.


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## LakeCondo (Apr 6, 2012)

Thank goodness it soon will be repaired. It seems like if the owner were THAT concerned, he'd have had someone there sooner. And I was a landlord for awhile, so I know. [A 4-plex with FHA 5% down & I lived in the building after I bought it, thus the FHA.]


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## ZRabbits (Apr 6, 2012)

*SnowyShiloh wrote: *


> I'm feeling a tiny bit less worried. I'm 27 years old but I called my mom and cried to her and she reassured me that the bun buns will probably be fine and I feel a little bit better.
> 
> We got a whole bunch of fans blowing, Paul blocked the heat vents, and we have our inner door (to our entryway, it's not open to the outside but it's a little cooler in the entryway) wide open so it's much more tolerable in here now. I don't really care if we're making the furnace go into over drive right now, I don't want my bunnies at risk and the repair man will be here tomorrow.


Mom's words do help. Glad to hear you can call Mom and she listens and helps sooths worries.

Gees, it's always something, isn't it. Hoping the repairman is there fast for you so the bunnies aren't living in such a hot house. 

Hoping all your buns are doing well.

K


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## tonyshuman (Apr 6, 2012)

I agree that giving bunnies antibiotics as a preventative probably isn't the best idea. Listening to the lungs is great, and all the other things you are doing sound good. Who is doing the necropsy? E coli is a really common contaminant that can just be airborne and if they weren't really careful with the bacterial cultures it could just be from the area in which they prepared them.


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## SnowyShiloh (Apr 6, 2012)

Hi Claire! I hadn't thought of the cross contamination thing. The vet that put Nomi to sleep did the necropsy. She's not my favorite vet for them because she doesn't have a lot of experience with animals that aren't cats and dogs, but I don't know if she's careful when doing necropsies.

This is a bit off topic, but I'll never forget when our baby birds were sick and she treated them (regular vet was not available) and tried to empty Kieran's crop by sticking a metal thing down his throat. She was far too rough with him and I believe caused him serious injury. The poor little guy was standing as tall as he could, wings spread, gasping for air for 20 minutes after, then died a few hours later. He would have died soon anyway but I so regret letting her do that to him. I didn't let her empty any of the other babies and did it myself from then on and it was much, much less traumatic for them. My poor Kieran!


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## Maureen Las (Apr 6, 2012)

This thread is really an intelligent discussion . I, too, would notgive antibiotics but observe carefullly as others stated.


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## LakeCondo (Apr 6, 2012)

It's too bad the vets involved can't learn from us.


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## Maureen Las (Apr 7, 2012)

*LakeCondo wrote: *


> It's too bad the vets involved can't learn from us.



I agree....


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## SnowyShiloh (Apr 7, 2012)

I didn't hear back from the vet today AND the repair man did not come  They said he would be here Monday. We have lots of fans going, the bathroom window open (which can't be seen from outside because it opens in and has a screen), and are occasionally opening the front door to bring in some cool air. It isn't too bad in here.

Tonight my friend came over for pizza and games. She used to want to be a vet but changed her mind. She's worked with animals lots though and has worked in vet clinics, and has cats, dogs, and used to run a rat rescue. She's listened to lots of lungs so of course I asked her to listen to the bunnies' lungs. She'd never listened to a rabbit's lungs before but said she thought everyone sounded fine except Phoebe and Ned. Phoebe was making some sounds but she thought it was probably her tummy, but she said Ned sounded like his breath sounds were "catching" every once in a while when he inhaled. I'm hoping she was wrong since she's inexperienced with bunny lungs and said it was hard to hear their sounds (she said she hopes she's wrong, too!). Regardless, tomorrow I'll be calling the vet to see if we can bring him in to have his lungs listened to.

Please be healthy, Nedder Bug! He's the one I was most concerned with to begin with because he's the most delicate.


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## Watermelons (Apr 7, 2012)

What symptoms... if any... are you noticing?

Sometimes bunnys may sound like their catching their breath if their freaked out and already breathing heavily... or stopping for a sniff here and there inbetween panicing.

The sound you want to listen for is basicly water on the lungs. Crackles. This will be hard to notice on bunnys especially since their breathing rate is so quick already.
Here are some human sounds
http://faculty.etsu.edu/arnall/www/public_html/heartlung/breathsounds/contents.html
Scroll down to about the center where it says Adventitious Sounds. Crackles and rales. If you have an infection in your lungs or lots of nasty mucusy phlem and other yummy things... think of us having a "wet cough", that junk settles in your lungs which will change how much air youre able to bring in and as a result change what somebody on the outside hears as the patient breaths through the gunk.


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## SnowyShiloh (Apr 7, 2012)

Watermelons, I listened to him and couldn't hear anything amiss. It is true that he was a bit worked up (we listened to him last and he thought he were handing out treats to the other bunnies), he was nervous too being handled by someone he doesn't know well and I could see whites around his eyes. Hopefully that was what she was hearing.


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## SnowyShiloh (Apr 7, 2012)

Okay, vet called (the one that treated Nomi, not our regular vet) and said they got the completed results from the lab. They found E. coli and a type of unspecified bacillus bacteria in her. NO pasteurella. Apparently the 2 others they were culturing ended up not being anything significant or something since they weren't included in the report? I'll call the main vet on Monday to see what she knows.

Anyway, the vet said the bacillus bacteria is a type of bacteria that's everywhere and shouldn't really be a danger to the other bunnies, and that the E. coli is mysterious but not really dangerous to the others either. I hadn't told her that I wasn't giving the antibiotics to the buns but she told me to stop since it doesn't seem like they're in danger.

The running theory is that Nomi was immuno suppressed from her previous life and having litter after litter, plus we don't really know what environment she lived in. They think it just kind of caught up with her and gave her pneumonia and she died 

Thoughts and opinions from anyone who knows about bacillus genus of bacteria?


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## Samara (Apr 7, 2012)

The genus bacillus causes anthrax!


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## SnowyShiloh (Apr 8, 2012)

Yeah, she mentioned that, Samara. I'm imagining a bizarre situation in which someone tried to assassinate my bunny with anthrax (just kidding, of course).


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## LakeCondo (Apr 8, 2012)

I agree [post 43, not 45]. I was told by a friend from Arizona there were 2 forms of anthrax. The less serious form is often found among people who are exposed to leather a lot, even people who play drums without the sticks.


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## SnowyShiloh (Apr 8, 2012)

LakeCondo, she said that bacillus bacteria like anthrax are naturally found in dirt and are not necessarily harmful. I was just kidding about the assassination thing of course. Nomi didn't HAVE anthrax- the lab didn't actually specify which type of bacillus- the vet just used it as an example of a type of bacillus that is found in lots of places and isn't necessarily harmful.


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## SnowyShiloh (Apr 8, 2012)

Rory and I just had a snuggle. His nose is ever so slightly damp. Listened to his lungs and could actually hear them pretty well but didn't hear anything untoward. Let's hope it's nothing!! I will be keeping super close tabs on him! Hopefully he just had a drink of water or something and had a little dampness under his nose from it.


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## ZRabbits (Apr 8, 2012)

*SnowyShiloh wrote: *


> Rory and I just had a snuggle. His nose is ever so slightly damp. Listened to his lungs and could actually hear them pretty well but didn't hear anything untoward. Let's hope it's nothing!! I will be keeping super close tabs on him! Hopefully he just had a drink of water or something and had a little dampness under his nose from it.


Know exactly what you are going through. Neville is doing wonderfully and now I'm watching every move Luna is making because I'm afraid she might come down with an inner ear infection. I found a sleeper in one eye. But it's very dry here now. Even have forest fires in the Pine lands that's how dry it is. See Luna scratching her ear and face, but her wool is coming in. So my husband straightened me out. 

But every little thing will set me off because I'm on High Alert due to Neville being ill. 

You are no different than any other bunny Mom. Heck you are no different than any Mom. Hopefully this will pass, and all the bunnies will be fine. Just like I'm hoping this passes here. 

K


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## SnowyShiloh (Apr 8, 2012)

Before I went to bed I checked Rory and his nose was definitely a little runny, but I just got up (10 am on a Sunday morning, went to bed at 3 am, whatever!) and his nose is completely dry. I'll keep an eye on him all day and hopefully it will stay dry. As much as I want my bunnies to be healthy and nip anything in the bud, I don't really want to rush him to the vet today (if they're even open on Easter!) because his nose was a little damp for a couple hours last night but he looks normal today. Ya know?


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## LakeCondo (Apr 8, 2012)

right


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## tonyshuman (Apr 9, 2012)

Might be good to have the vet take a listen to Rory's lungs. Bacillus is pretty much anywhere, so she could have picked it up easily.

I found some papers where E coli pneumonia was studied in rabbits, and it doesn't seem uncommon. This paper lists it as the 2nd most common cause of bacterial pneumonia in rabbits, behind pasturella. They also had one rabbit test positive for bacillus. They also describe E coli as an opportunistic bacterium that can take root when the rabbit's immune system is already challenged or compromised.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10712805

I would guess that she had acquired the infection from being immunocompromised if she was in bad health before you guys took her in. Repeated litters could definitely cause it. She also could have been living in a dirty space with lots of feces piling up or dirt (which contains a lot of different bacillus species). Unfortunately, these bacteria could also have been present if the vets weren't following great sterile procedure while doing the necropsy, so it could be a little suspect. I wouldn't ask the vet about that--it would be a bit accusatory.

It seems that rabbit pneumonia is a more chronic condition that's difficult to see, cases in point my Ben and your Nomi. Long-term disease or poor health caused by bad caretaking can lead to opportunistic bacterial infections, or pneumonia associated with pressure on the lungs, and that may be asymptomatic until it becomes very apparent and very bad. I think as long as your other guys seem otherwise in good health, their environments are nice and clean, and you keep them as cool as possible (under your circumstances), they won't require a vet visit or antibiotics. I think pneumonia is pretty easy to hear with a stethoscope, but if there's a concern, and Rory doesn't normally have a drippy nose, then a vet visit will put your mind at ease.


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## SnowyShiloh (Apr 10, 2012)

Claire, thanks for the great info! Very helpful. I just called the vet clinic to ask if the main vet van call me. I want to bring Rory in to have him checked out. He had the hint of a damp nose for a few hours on Saturday night, then nothing until last night, when his nose was just a tiny bit damp again. I've made a tentative vet appointment for him on Thursday morning (soonest our vet is available) . As far as I personally can tell, his lungs sound fine, and he has not lost weight in the last week (he's actually gone from 3 lbs 6 oz to 3 lbs 9 oz), but I'd like him to be looked over. 

Can runny noses be caused by fans? I know drafts aren't good for buns but we've needed to keep fans going because of our broken thermostat. Almost every summer we have to aim a little fan right at him because he gets too hot and he's never had ill effects, but we've been running fans since Thursday night and a big box fan blew right by his cage until we changed the angle on Sunday. Darned thermostat repair people keep changing their date of when they're coming and have pushed it back to Thursday (naturally, exactly at the same time as Rory's vet appointment but what can you do!). Thankfully it has not been too hot in here the past few days and we didn't even run the fans last night.

Any idea of what antibiotic would be best for him if he needs it? I have a great big $75 bottle of apple flavored Baytril in the fridge that I picked up the day after Nomi died.


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## LakeCondo (Apr 11, 2012)

If the vet recommends an antibiotic, ask if you can use "what's left" of what you had been giving all of them before, with maybe a new prescription for more [which you don't need to get filled].


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## SnowyShiloh (Apr 12, 2012)

Ugh, Kerensa has a runny nose as of right now. When the vet office opens I'm going to ask if I can bring her in, too. Poor girl may have to travel in a cardboard box because two carriers are infected with Nomi germs, one I lent to a friend, and that only leaves one carrier for two bunnies.

Transportation issues aside, I'm feeling very uneasy with TWO runny nosed buns on my hands. Could they have gotten runny noses from temperature changes? The property managers turned off the furnace so now it's about 65 in here, while it was in the 80s the other day. 

Worried about my babies! Let's hope we can stop this in its tracks and everyone doesn't get sick (or worse). Fret, fret.


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## ZRabbits (Apr 12, 2012)

*SnowyShiloh wrote: *


> Ugh, Kerensa has a runny nose as of right now. When the vet office opens I'm going to ask if I can bring her in, too. Poor girl may have to travel in a cardboard box because two carriers are infected with Nomi germs, one I lent to a friend, and that only leaves one carrier for two bunnies.
> 
> Transportation issues aside, I'm feeling very uneasy with TWO runny nosed buns on my hands. Could they have gotten runny noses from temperature changes? The property managers turned off the furnace so now it's about 65 in here, while it was in the 80s the other day.
> 
> Worried about my babies! Let's hope we can stop this in its tracks and everyone doesn't get sick (or worse). Fret, fret.


So sorry to hear. It could be the temper change, or could be the pollen count. Everybody is complaining about allergies. At least on the East Coast. And I don't think its better anywhere else. How was your winter there? Was it light like ours here on the East Coast? We didn't even get cold here. I know temper changes will affect bunnies too. But they usually react when it's a quick change so maybe that's setting off your buns and NOT what Nomi had. But it's good to get them checked. Just for your peace of mind. 

Your affected crates, one part bleach, three parts water for each carrier in the tub. Turn the shower on after allowing the solution to sit for 5 minutes on the crates. Then rinse in hot water. Nothing lives. 

Let us know how it all goes. Will be thinking of you and buns. Good Luck!

K


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## SnowyShiloh (Apr 12, 2012)

Karen, we live in Alaska so a mild winter still involves temperatures in the -30 range. Winter IS coming to an end though and it's been in the 40s for the past week with the snow on its way to melting (with a long way to go yet). I doubt there are any pollen issues since the trees are all still bare and there's not a hint of green yet.

Called the vet and asked if Kerensa could come too. The receptionist said the vet would take a look at Kerensa if she had time. Please let there be time, I don't want to drag her back unnecessarily again! Stressful for bunny and waste of time.

Good news at least is Kerensa actually GAINED 4 ounces in the past week, just like Rory did. Why are they gaining weight? Either way, glad it's a gain and not a loss.

Will update when we get back! I have to go find a box for Rory. He hates being in the carrier so I figure Kerensa can have the carrier and Rory can travel in a box, then I'll take him out of the box and hold him while we wait since that's his preferred method of waiting at the vet's office.


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## SnowyShiloh (Apr 12, 2012)

We're back! The vet said they both look fine. Neither had a runny nose when we were there (in spite of being stressed from being at the vet office) and she listened to their lungs and said they sounded great. Both bunnies looked like the picture of health. She said the slight runny noses were probably because of the temperature changes in our house and that if they get consistently runny noses to give her a call and we would then either give them the Baytril we already have or another antibiotic (sorry forgot what it was called). I hope she's right and the buns are fine!! They really did look great and I'd think if they had respiratory infections their noses would have been running from the stress, but I could be wrong.

Both bunnies got fawned over by the vet techs and the vet. It's good to know at least that they like the bunnies.

Total cost so far: $604. Nomi's euthanasia, the culture sent to the lab, the cremation, Baytril, and todays two exams. The price for private cremations zoomed up from $100 when Skyler died two years ago to $180 now. They didn't charge us for the necropsy which was nice, and the culture was $150. So far in 2012 we have spent $1200 on vet bills for buns (this includes 2 spays and a neuter). It's a good thing my husband loves me! Let's hope the rest of our year is a little less expensive and our bun buns all stay healthy!


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## ZRabbits (Apr 12, 2012)

With the way the weather has been so strange all over the United States, you never know. Glad it's not pollen. lol We are getting bombarded with it here right now because of the Mild, or should I say Non-existent Winter. And it's so dry here too, which doesn't help. Even had forest fires in the Pinelands. 

Glad to hear your update. Wow, big bills this year, buthey, your babies are truly worth it. And definitely a very understanding husband. 

Hoping all stay healthy for you and hubby in 2012. 

K


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## Samara (Apr 12, 2012)

SnowyShiloh wrote:


> Let's hope the rest of our year is a little less expensive and our bun buns all stay healthy!



ray:

Thank you for being so proactive with your babies. It renews my faith in humanity to know there are people like you out there willing to spend the money and take the extra mile to keep your wee friends healthy. 

We need to make t-shirts for this forum!


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## LakeCondo (Apr 12, 2012)

Sammy, at zazzle.com you can make your own design for many of their items, including tees.


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## Samara (Apr 13, 2012)

Cool!


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## LakeCondo (Apr 13, 2012)

At zazzle.com, just be sure to enter "pet rabbits" not just "rabbits" or you'll get some hunting pictures.

I got a bunch of refrig magnets when I was getting Honey. If you put 2 of them back to back, you can use them like a pin on a pocket, without any holes in your clothes. [on a pocket because you don't want the corners of a magnet against the skin]


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## LakeCondo (Apr 13, 2012)

At zazzle.com, just be sure to enter "pet rabbits" not just "rabbits" or you'll get some hunting pictures as well.

I got a bunch of refrig magnets when I was getting Honey. If you put 2 of them back to back, you can use them like a pin on a pocket, without any holes in your clothes. [on a pocket because you don't want the corners of a magnet against the skin]


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## SnowyShiloh (Apr 14, 2012)

Samara, that comment is so kind, but taking care of our buns is just what any responsible owner does, right? And if you make a T shirt, you have to show us! You know those decals you see on people's back car windows with cute little stick figures of the person's family members? I want to get one with OUR family: man, woman, 6 little bunnies  Saw some at Zazzle (I think) but not the right number of bunnies.


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## Samara (Apr 14, 2012)

Stickers would rock!


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## SnowyShiloh (Apr 18, 2012)

Thought maybe I should update. I think my babies are going to be okay! What a relief! None of them have shown any signs of illness since Rory and Kerensa had runny noses. They actually haven't had runny noses since the night before we went to the vet. This is at least the 4th time that I've taken a pet to the vet with some kind of an issue only to have the issue completely go away after the visit! Better that than having them actually be sick though I guess.

Sweet Nomi died 18 days ago and I'm starting to relax a bit about them getting sick with what she had since it's been almost 3 weeks now and the vet said that the types of bacteria Nomi had were not pathogenic.


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## LakeCondo (Apr 18, 2012)

Thanks for the update. I'm sure it is a relief.


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## SnowyShiloh (Apr 20, 2012)

Oh great, Phoebe Mae is out to prove me wrong! She has the slightest clear runny nose (it's actually damp rather than runny, you can't really tell by looking but when you touch under her nose your finger gets a little wet) and is occasionally doing little sneeze things. Several in a row, like 5 or so and she's had 4 little fits of this in the past hour and a half. Doesn't sound exactly like a sneeze and is fairly quiet. Sounds kind of snotty. Not wheezing. I don't know how to describe it! It doesn't seem to be causing any discharge and she doesn't wash her face after. Creeping me out! She's just been doing this since this morning. I listened to her lungs and they sounded seemingly normal to me but who knows? Going to give her a little bit of time in case she just got something in her nose, but if she's still doing this in a bit I will call the vet and ask what she thinks.

Suppressing the urge to whisk her cage away upstairs so she's not around the other bunnies... She's always been around them so I imagine if she has something, they've all been exposed by now! 

I'm lying on the couch working on a project on my lap top, and she is directly in my line of sight behind the computer. That's convenient for CONSTANT observation, at least!

UPDATE: Okay, she's been looking like she's chewing something for the past 15 minutes or so but she doesn't have any food in front of her and hasn't had any cecals. I'm going to go investigate! Wonder if she'll open her mouth for me? And it's definitely chewing, not teeth grinding.


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## SnowyShiloh (Apr 20, 2012)

Okay, too late to update the previous post. I held her on her back in my arms like a baby and used a Q tip to pry her mouth open (she is currently not very happy with me). Didn't see anything in her mouth, BUT her front bottom teeth are not wearing perfectly even. Bunny teeth are weird and I've seen them go from not perfectly evenly worn to perfect in a few days (and the other way around), so I'm not TOO worried, but perhaps she is having some dental issues rather than respiratory? I just gave her another chew stick (apple wood) and she's chewing on it. I know that wouldn't help molars though if she's having a problem with them. Perhaps some thicker hay like brome hay would help?

Not to worry, OF COURSE I will take her to the vet if it seems necessary. I do not deny my bun buns medical care! Just want to get a bit more info and watch for a bit first.


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## LakeCondo (Apr 20, 2012)

At least dental issues aren't contagious.


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## SnowyShiloh (Apr 21, 2012)

That's absolutely right, LakeCondo. Of course I don't want her to have dental issues, but that it seems less scary (and less contagious!) than respiratory issues.

I'm thinking more that it's her teeth. She just did the weird series of repeated sound again that I mentioned earlier, but this time she was actually facing me and I could see her jaw moving. I think it's the sound of her grinding her molars together 4 or 5 times in rapid succession rather than a snorting/sneezing/wheezing sound. She's very inconsistent with it- 4 times in an hour, then nothing for 5 hours... Glad I got to see her head on this time, before it was always from the side and it just looked like she was moving her head like when you sneeze or sniffle!

Edit: She did it again. It's definitely her teeth. I can see her moving her jaw from side to side. Poor dear!


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## SnowyShiloh (Apr 23, 2012)

My poor girly! She's having a hard time tonight. Nose is runnier than before and she's doing the molar chomping and doesn't want to eat her hay, though she did eat her pellets. We got her some oat hay and orchard grass in addition to timothy but I think her molars are just hurting too much. It kills me every time I hear her grind her teeth, it's so loud and it must hurt a lot  Hopefully the vet can get her in quickly and do whatever needs to be done! Guessing anesthetize her and grind them down? What next if they grow back and bother her more? Ugh.


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## Samara (Apr 23, 2012)

Maybe they can be ground down, like you said. A last resort might be to simply have the vet remove them. It would mean amending her diet in the future...I'm not sure how that would work? Has anyone had a rabbit without molars before?


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## LakeCondo (Apr 23, 2012)

How old is she & what breed?

I know you don't want to go through any more problems, but grinding the teeth down usually works eventually.


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## SnowyShiloh (Apr 23, 2012)

Do you guys think I should make a new thread since this is a dental problem, not a respiratory problem? I want to hear from others whose bunnies have had the same thing and the current title isn't very helpful.

We just got up 15 minutes ago (9:30 here) and Phoebs is eating hay right now. I called the vet and the earliest appointment is for 9 am on Wednesday, so that's when we're going in.

Oh yeah, Phoebs is a 3 years, 8 months old and a Holland Lop-Mini Rex mix. She basically looks like a Mini Rex with normal fur. Up until now she has been perfectly healthy.


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## LakeCondo (Apr 24, 2012)

Yes, I'd start a new post.

So she's not a breed that tends to have dental problems & is neither very young or very old, the ages that seem to have the most dental problems. So my guess is that it can be straightened out easier than if it seemed genetic.


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## SnowyShiloh (Apr 25, 2012)

I wonder if the oat hay is working. We didn't get home from work/school until 4 hours ago, but have not heard her do the grinding and her nose is less runny. I looked at her incisors and they are wearing straight again. We will be taking her to the vet in the morning anyway, but it is interesting.


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## SnowyShiloh (Apr 25, 2012)

Phoebsie update! The vet said her bottom molars are a little long but she couldn't see any spurs or injuries. She agreed that the oat hay is probably helping and said to just keep on giving her the oat hay. She told me one way to check if Phoebe possibly has molar spurs is to manually move her lower jaw from side to side and feel if it catches at all. If Phoebe's nose gets runnier or she seems to get worse, she will be sedated and have her teeth ground down, but for now she seems to be improving. Also, cheapest vet bill ever paid by me- $52. Yay!


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## ArdenBunny (Apr 25, 2012)

Wow! I just read the whole thread. :shock: Good grief! You deserve a vacation after having to deal with all of that (a free one, since you spent all that money on vet bills)!

I hope everybunny is still doing ok. What a nightmare!

:mrsthumper:


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