# Obama's Running Mate



## SOOOSKA (Aug 22, 2008)

I was watching CNN late yesterday afternoon. They were saying that Burma was suppose to announce his running mate last evening. Well of course I had to watch the Olympics last evening so I missed if he made the announcement.

Can anyone on here tell me if he announced who it is.

Thanks

Susan






PS

I think it should be Hillary, buy hey what do I know I'm not an American just a Canadian who's watched Pre Election TV for the past 18 months.


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## SOOOSKA (Aug 22, 2008)

Can someone fix running in the title please.

Thanks

Susan


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## Bo B Bunny (Aug 22, 2008)

Well, he hasn't announced it yet, but I am pushing for Evan Bayh. I was pregnant when his wife was pregnant with the twins. She and I had the same OBGYN and I got to see her a couple of times. They are the NICEST people you'd ever meet. Evan's father, Birch, was also a congressman and good person. Evan is Democratic but with a bit of conservatism. I think he would be a great balance and HUGE asset to the Presidential office.


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## SOOOSKA (Aug 22, 2008)

Is this Evan guy on his short list? I saw on CNN that Joe Byden (sp?) was and I think they said someone from Virginia. 

Alot of the announcers say he should pick Hillary as his numbers are supposedly going don, McCain is catching up or even passing him in the poles.

Susan


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## Raspberry82 (Aug 22, 2008)

I'm afraid of seeing it be Hillary because then Obama will be basically impossible to beat. I have a lot of qualms with Obamas lack of being truthful and having integrity as a person considering his history, not to mention his lack of experience. *sigh* I don't want to vote for either Obama or McCain, they both suck.. lol  I love how Obama even lied in his autobiography and started his campaign on the foundation of ending the war asap and now he wants to stay in the war.. the guy has no idea what he's doing . And I won't even get into the extremist radicals he has had as mentors and friends (no, not the pastor, political extreme radicals that have been very dangerous/crazy individuals) and how he refers to himself and "the light, the one" like he's some prophet come to save us. He's a politician, plain and simple.


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## Bo B Bunny (Aug 22, 2008)

LOL! I have to be honest in that I don't like either candidate at the moment. if Evan Bayh (who is on the shortlist and very popular with the media) was on a ticket, I would at least feel somewhat ok voting for that one.

I had hopes that Evan would run for president himself.


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## LadyBug (Aug 23, 2008)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> LOL! I have to be honest in that I don't like either candidate at the moment.




that's how every body i know is:tongue

i keep hearing the adults talking about(the following is said in a deep voice. the voice of doom, maybe:lookaround?)*"the lesser of the two evils"*(and i'm like this-:help. i left the table and went to play with Em last sunday 'cause the 'dults were taking politics. i never play with her any more! i was desperate!:help)

and i don't wanna get flamed in this thread, so i'm just gonna sneak backout now:big wink:
but before i go, i've just gotta do this-:USAflagwaving:


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## Leaf (Aug 23, 2008)

Obamachose Joe Biden.




> They were saying that Burma was suppose to announce his running mate last evening.


?


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## pumpkinandwhiskersmom (Aug 23, 2008)

It's Joe Biden....not sure about why....imho, a strange choice...but I haven't heard the rationale behind the choice.


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## LadyBug (Aug 23, 2008)

article-Burma VP


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## TinysMom (Aug 23, 2008)

*pumpkinandwhiskersmom wrote: *


> It's Joe Biden....not sure about why....imho, a strange choice...but I haven't heard the rationale behind the choice.


Biden's strength is foreign policy experience - something Obama is often considered weak on.

I would've had more respect for Obama if he'd at least had Sen. Clinton vetted for the VP position even though he may have never planned to go with her. I think that would have been a nice courtesy and meant a lot to the supporters of Sen. Clinton. (By the way - I'm not a Democrat so it didn't influence my vote...just that I think it would've been nice).

I was kind of shocked really that he went with Sen. Biden. It is my understanding that Obama has been all about "change" and yet he picked a VP who has been in Washington for like 30 years or so? I'm not saying we can't have change...I've just been reading various commentators and stuff and was reading yesterday about how this would be something that would affect his choice - would he go with someone "new" to Washington or someone who has been there or a while even though his message is about change.

Last night I got a phone call - and I was part of a Rasmussen poll. Very very interesting...it asked me what I thought about various people....and the list of them were all the people rumored to be on the short list for Obama's VP. I got the call about 7 pm....I wonder what time the poll closed. Anyway - it was funny to hear when I got up who the VP choice was - it was the second name on the list of VP candidates (I think they were in alphabetical order).


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## SOOOSKA (Aug 23, 2008)

Here's another *"Bright"*question from a Canadian:Canada small:. What does "vetted" mean? I heard a bunch of comintators using that word last evening.

Thanks

Susan


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## Raspberry82 (Aug 23, 2008)

to subject to usually expert appraisal or correction, examine for acceptance,baiscally a process of evaluating and examining, in this case examining and evaluating politicians


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## Bo B Bunny (Aug 25, 2008)

Well, I'm disappointed that Bayh was not chosen but I think maybe it is because the Clintons REALLY like him a lot. We suspect that Hillary would have chosen him for her running mate had she gotten in the election.

I think I am going to write in a vote:

Bo B. Bhunneh.


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## JadeIcing (Aug 25, 2008)

All I have to say is I wonder who McCain will choose. If he choose Romney and one I just might move to Canada.


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## SOOOSKA (Aug 25, 2008)

Yeah Ali, you can move close to me then we can have Bunny Parties.

Susan


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## Bo B Bunny (Aug 25, 2008)

*I'm thinking the same thing!*

*JadeIcing wrote: *


> All I have to say is I wonder who McCain will choose. If he choose Romney and one I just might move to Canada.


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## seniorcats (Aug 25, 2008)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> I think I am going to write in a vote:
> 
> Bo B. Bhunneh.





There is a viable option: Dr. Melody 'Fullmoon' Frankenbunny for President runningfor the Lagomorph Liberation Party. She has not yet named a running mate. If you send her a small check for $1,000 she will consider your bunny.

*Vote for Mel!!!!!!!!!!*


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## Raspberry82 (Aug 25, 2008)

I'd vote for Mel!!!!! GO MEL! You tell those politicians whats what, lol. :biggrin2::biggrin2:


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## Haley (Aug 25, 2008)

Id vote for her! Should we write her in as a candidate? 

I dont think Ive ever disliked both candidates so much. Guess I'll have to choose the lesser of the two evils...


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## Raspberry82 (Aug 25, 2008)

Yeah, me too Haley. I don't want either one to win. Meh :?


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## Haley (Aug 25, 2008)

*JadeIcing wrote: *


> If he choose Romney and one I just might move to Canada.



Ali...if Obama wins you might think you moved to Canada 

Darn socialists! :Canada small:


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## seniorcats (Aug 25, 2008)

*Haley wrote: *


> *JadeIcing wrote: *
> 
> 
> > If he choose Romney and one I just might move to Canada.
> ...



LOL!!! We''ll have to learn how and when to say 'Eh' correctly and like hockey and drink Molson's. 

[ame=http://www.veoh.com/videos/e90534Pxq56mZ5]http://www.veoh.com/videos/e90534Pxq56mZ5[/ame]

Now with Frankenbunny for President, all Americans will go back to a feudal state and work to serve bunnies.Parsley and cilantro will be grown on the White House lawn, the tax rate will 'change' to a flat 50%, carrots will be a a bigger crop than corn....


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## JadeIcing (Aug 25, 2008)

*I like that Idea.*

*SOOOSKA wrote: *


> Yeah Ali, you can move close to me then we can have Bunny Parties.
> 
> Susan


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## JadeIcing (Aug 25, 2008)

*I lived in MA when Romney was governor. Trust me you do NOT want to liveif he is in charge even as vice pres. *

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> *I'm thinking the same thing!*
> 
> *JadeIcing wrote: *
> 
> ...


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## JadeIcing (Aug 25, 2008)

*I hear its good up there. :biggrin2:*

*Haley wrote: *


> *JadeIcing wrote: *
> 
> 
> > If he choose Romney and one I just might move to Canada.
> ...


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## JadeIcing (Aug 25, 2008)

*I like hockey! The rest I can learn.*

*seniorcats wrote: *


> *Haley wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *JadeIcing wrote: *
> ...


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## SOOOSKA (Aug 25, 2008)

*Eh! Eh! Eh!Eh! Eh! Eh! Eh! Eh! Eh!Eh! Eh! Eh! Eh! Eh! Eh!Eh! Eh! Eh! Eh! Eh! Eh!Eh! Eh! Eh! *

*Now everyone say Eh together, if you can pronounce it withthe correct accentyou will be allowed into Canada! :Canada small::Canada small::Canada small::Canada small::Canada small::Canada small::Canada small::Canada small::Canada small::Canada small:*

*Susan









*

*



*


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## seniorcats (Aug 25, 2008)

Melody sez.....


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## seniorcats (Aug 25, 2008)

Yikes!!!!!!! Can someone downsize that picture for me?



Since McCain is announcing his VEEP pick in Ohio, I was hoping it would be John Kasich.

http://www.johnkasich.com/


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## Raspberry82 (Aug 25, 2008)

Lol. I could, but I'm afraid others will too and there will be 10 litter pictures of it within the next 5 minutes! Lol


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## Raspberry82 (Aug 25, 2008)

That picture is hilarious!! And that Canadian vid? WOW... just um, omg.. hah.


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## SOOOSKA (Aug 25, 2008)

When ishe announcing it? 

I'm debating if I want to watch Obama's wife tonight make her speech. Their is something about that woman that I just don't like!

Susan


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## seniorcats (Aug 25, 2008)

I believe he's supposed to be here Thursday of this week. I plan on watching Home and Garden channel rather than the convention.


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## seniorcats (Aug 25, 2008)

*Raspberry82 wrote: *


> That picture is hilarious!! And that Canadian vid? WOW... just um, omg.. hah.


I think the video was part of a Molson's ad campaign. I love it!


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## EdieRabbitsMom (Aug 25, 2008)

I know he is a bit young, but I wish McCain would pick Bobby Jindal as his running mate. That guy really impresses me, although he says he feels himself that he is too young and inexperienced to be the pick. I think he would make a great president some day, though. 

Obama's inexperience is not what worries me the most about him, though. It is more about his questionable associations and dishonestythat make me leery of his character.


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## Bo B Bunny (Aug 25, 2008)

LOL I think she'd be a great president! (Dr. Frankenbunny)


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## Spring (Aug 25, 2008)

I probably hear more about American politics than Canadian.. my goodness.. Ido agreea bunny could do a darn better job running a country than most politicians.. 

My oh so favourite political statement..

"Politicians are like dirty diapers.. full of poopand need to be changed often"

:biggrin2:


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## SOOOSKA (Aug 27, 2008)

So what did everybody think of Hilary's speach tonight? 

I thought she was one Class Act.I thought she spoke very well for the good of the party.

Now was it enough to get Obama elected, time will tell.

Susan


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## Bo B Bunny (Aug 27, 2008)

I've heard it was excellent - My mom told me most of it.

Honestly, I don't like him - but I hate his wife more! I can't deal with looking at her LOL! 

Generally I would say I am neutral - I don't vote just for a party but I am registered as a republican..... I think I'm going to change that....... 

I'm leaning towards Obama...... :?


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## TinysMom (Aug 27, 2008)

I didn't listen to her speech but I read all about it and may go watch it on the internet. From what I've read - I'm highly impressed with Hillary's actions.

To be honest with you - I'm a die hard Republican and yet I really have respect for how she stuck out the campaign and was in all 50 states. If she had the nomination - in spite of my beliefs...I would almost consider crossing party lines to vote for her. Almost being the key word. I like her better now than I did years ago and I hope she runs again in four years or whatever....I guess that depends upon who wins this year's election.

I've been going to the gallup.com website to read about the polling, etc. I think I'll probably be checking that site every day.

Anyway - back to what I wanted to say. I'll never forget saying to others after John Kerry conceded four years ago - that his speech was that of a true statesmen. I feel that way about Hillary's speech last night. I think she did very well. I hope to see her campaign again in the future.

Its funny - I am spending so much time lately reading about the Democratic convention - and there is no way I'd vote for them this year. But still yet - it makes for such fascinating reading....

.....maybe thats part of why I'm not getting my housework done....in fact...I think it is!


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## Haley (Aug 27, 2008)

I hate the woman with a passion but I thought she gave a very good speech. I really think Obama would have been a shoe in if he had picked her as his running mate. Although those two would scare the heck out of me with regards to foreign policy (ie something neither know anything about). 

I can see why people like Obama, he's very charismatic, but when I look at the issues theres no way I can support him- hes just too far left for me.


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## seniorcats (Aug 28, 2008)

*Haley wrote: *


> I hate the woman with a passion but I thought she gave a very good speech. I really think Obama would have been a shoe in if he had picked her as his running mate. Although those two would scare the heck out of me with regards to foreign policy (ie something neither know anything about).
> 
> I can see why people like Obama, he's very charismatic, but when I look at the issues theres no way I can support him- hes just too far left for me.



You took the thoughts right out of my head. 

Some time between Thursday and Saturday, McCain will be announcing his running mate. I am really eager to see who it is but I hope he waits until after the convention. Something tells me he won't be announcing Dr. Melody.


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## jordiwes (Aug 28, 2008)

I must say,I like both of your candidates this time.

Compare them to Bush and Kerry... it's like night and day!

That Romney guyI found creepy though.

I'll keep watching the Daily Show to keep up with my American politics.


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## LuvaBun (Aug 28, 2008)

*SOOOSKA wrote: *


> So what did everybody think of Hilary's speach tonight?
> 
> I thought she was one Class Act.I thought she spoke very well for the good of the party.
> 
> ...


I don't really watch political speeches (of any country), but she had a way of making you listen. I thought she did a really good job!

Jan


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## lalena2148 (Aug 29, 2008)

*Haley wrote: *


> I hate the woman with a passion but I thought she gave a very good speech. I really think Obama would have been a shoe in if he had picked her as his running mate. Although those two would scare the heck out of me with regards to foreign policy (ie something neither know anything about).
> 
> I can see why people like Obama, he's very charismatic, but when I look at the issues theres no way I can support him- hes just too far left for me.


Ditto on the Clinton thing. In fact, if he would have picked her as his running mate, I would have been pissed.

As far as voting for him, when I see the alternative, and really another 8 years of this crap in the U.S., there's no way I'm voting for anyone else. But that's the great thing about voting in the U.S.A:USAflagwaving:; we have a say...well, at least until the electoral college gets involved. Why can't they just count all our votes and let them count? (Psst...I lived in FL during the 2000 election to so I have issues with it, but I was only 17 so don't yell at me for that whole fiasco).

But my other problem with presidents...most of the time they run because of ego. The only presidents that I ever found interesting were George Washington and John Adams. Washington didn't want to even be president. Heck, the congress was going to name him KING of the United States. And he was like "What? Isn't a monarchy what we just spent YEARS of our lives to break free off." So, he settled on Commander in Chief of the Army. Adams was president because he happened to be the VP (really the head of the continental congress) and just fell into the job. He wanted change but he saw the congress struggle to make simple decisions. He, in fact, hated the job. He was happy to be done with it. BTW, did you know Jefferson started the first smear campaign against a political candidate in a different party? It was against Adams, when he was running for his second term.

OK, enough with the history lesson....


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## JadeIcing (Aug 29, 2008)

So we either have a black guy and a white guy or a white guy and a white lady. This just got intresting.

Ok I know that sounds bad but it is a first for the USA. Ok so not the first woman to run as VIP but the first time that she would stand a better chance.


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## lalena2148 (Aug 29, 2008)

*JadeIcing wrote: *


> Ok I know that sounds bad but it is a first for the USA. Ok so not the first woman to run as VIP but the first time that she would stand a better chance.


I think she is the first to run on the Republican ticket though.

Interesting choice though. We're seeing a lot of political firsts in this election.


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## Haley (Aug 29, 2008)

Yup, shes the first woman to run asa GOP VP nominee. Personally, I really like her. I saw her on some interviews about oil/drilling etc a while back and loved how energetic and personable she was. I also like that shes very conservative (something McCain isnt). Im very happy with this selection. 

As much as I dislike our two candidates and feel like neither can get us out of this mess, this is a very monumental election. This is a bad year for the racists and antifeminists in the US


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## JadeIcing (Aug 29, 2008)

*Haley wrote: *


> Yup, shes the first woman to run asa GOP VP nominee. Personally, I really like her. I saw her on some interviews about oil/drilling etc a while back and loved how energetic and personable she was. I also like that shes very conservative (something McCain isnt). Im very happy with this selection.
> 
> As much as I dislike our two candidates and feel like neither can get us out of this mess, this is a very monumental election. This is a bad year for the racists and antifeminists in the US



I don't know much about her yet but one of the things I doknowshe is against something I feel very strongly about. I plan on finding out about her.


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## Bo B Bunny (Aug 29, 2008)

FIRST: Geraldine Ferraro was the first woman VP running mate.

Regarding Palin and why we shouldn't vote for them:

How about the fact that she has no real experience - in office for less than 2 years as GOV and before that was a mayer of a town of 6500. She's a freakin' hockey mom! 

Zero foreign policy experience 

She's 1 heartbeat away from the Presidential seat and has no clue.

Biden has along experience in government, major dealings in foreign affairs and is qualified to be president should he be called to that duty.

McCain thinks that the country isn't in a recession or close to one - Heck! we haven't had foreclosures like this since the DEPRESSION!

Iraq has a $70 billion surplus, while we continue to go further and further into debt trying to help them??? 

Did you know the USA Had to borrow money from China to get oil? 

The democrats (Clinton) had our budget balanced! Eight years later and we're in a freaking mess!!! 



My mind was made up last night. I am voting for Obama. McCain's choice of Palin for his running mate just put the cherry on top of it.


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## TinysMom (Aug 29, 2008)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> FIRST: Geraldine Ferraro was the first woman VP running mate.
> 
> My mind was made up last night. I am voting for Obama. McCain's choice of Palin for his running mate just put the cherry on top of it.


I think the comments might have been about Palin being the first REPUBLICAN woman VP....at least the ones I've heard...

My mind was also made up for sure this morning (I was thinking of not voting) - and the choice of Palin for VP put the cherry on it for me too....I was actually in shock - but quite pleased.

One thing for sure - I think this is going to be a very interesting election....its what - 67 days away?

I can hardly wait...


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## Bo B Bunny (Aug 29, 2008)

Gotcha on the VP thing.

Although I would love to see a woman in the white house, I cannot bring myself to vote for them/HER. She has no experience andI cannot imagine what would happen if McCain would die or something.... she doesn't seem to have the ability.

For me, it's the lesser of 2 evils, but I think if Obama is honest about half of what he will do we will be in better shape.

McCain wants things to work themselves out - that's not worked for a few years now.

Understandably - those involved with military are going to want McCain in and not Obama cause Obama is talking of downsizing military funds.


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## Haley (Aug 29, 2008)

*TinysMom wrote: *


> > My mind was also made up for sure this morning (I was thinking of not voting) - and the choice of Palin for VP put the cherry on it for me too....I was actually in shock - but quite pleased.


Me too! I saw her on Glenn Beck's program a few months ago and was very impressed with her. I like that shes very conservative and also very down to earth. And I think its funny people who support Obama are criticizing her for having no experience- he has one term as a senator- is that really that much more impressive?


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## Dwarf_Angel04 (Aug 29, 2008)

I personally have never been interested in politics whatsoever.

What I can tell you from first hand knowledge is that America in general has gained a bigger interest towards one of the canidates that I am currently employed under. It's a suprise but just under 6,000 orders ina day for merchandise is nothing to blink an eye at right now. Maybe it's because of the conventions taking place now or the announcement of the VP's.... but none-the-less, America has become rather interested in the race.


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## lalena2148 (Aug 29, 2008)

*Haley wrote: *


> *TinysMom wrote: *
> 
> 
> > > My mind was also made up for sure this morning (I was thinking of not voting) - and the choice of Palin for VP put the cherry on it for me too....I was actually in shock - but quite pleased.
> ...


Haley, I think the point people are making is that McCain is kinda being a hypocrit by using the only defense he has against Obama; which is that Obama doesn't have the experience. Yet, he chooses a running mate who has 20 months as a Governor....of Alaska?? Before that, she was a Mayor of a city with about 6,200 people. Even though Obama has been involved in the Senate since 1996 I believe? Or it could be 1997. Either way, it's still a lot more than a Governor of a state w/ a population of about 671,000 people. Which, by the way, is way less than the almost 13,000,000 people Obama has worked for in Illinois. Just an observation. 

PSST...I think Mr. Tumnus should run for President w/ Lucy as his VP. That's winning ticket right there!

I don't know too much about her, but I am in no way a die-hard Conservative. And after seeing her views, and knowing that SHE would be the president if McCain kicked the bucket (and lord knows he already looks like he has one foot in the grave), I will not be voting for McCain. My mind is pretty much made up now.


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## seniorcats (Aug 29, 2008)

On the experience issue - Obamatook office as as a US Senator in 2005. He's been running for President for the past 2 years. He has no executive experience - ie daily decision making, which any Governor certainly has. Sarah Palin has an unprecedented 83% approval rating from the peopleshe serves in Alaska.

As for experience in office: Dwight Eisenhower was elected President without having ever held any other elected office. So was Andrew Jackson and Ulysses S. Grant. There may be a few other Presidents I missed.

I am constantlyastounded at the incongruity of this: If Ikill an eagle, I have committed a federal offense subject to prison and fines. If Itake an eagle egg from the nest and smash it, I have committed a federal offense and amsubject toprison and fines. If I kill my own fetus, eh, no problem. Spend some time silently pondering the enormity of it all.

No, I am not a one issue voter, never have been and never will be. I want less federal government, not more. I prefer personal responsibility to being told I am my brother's keeper in all things, at all times and my brother has no obligation to care for himself. I do not believe in dialogue with terrorists or open borders. I do not believe illegal aliens should have 'entitlement' and receive more or better services from the government than our own citizens.I do notin any way, shape or form support so-called sanctuary cities. I would support some type of amnesty plan as being a good practical and humane solution. And yes, I am a Second Amendment Sister. 

I will not 'diss' Obama on this forum even though I do not support him in his race for the Presidency. I do believe in freedom of speech and the responsibility that goes along with that freedom. Just because I can, doesn't mean I should....

I hope this thread doesn't become 'too hot to handle.'

When all else fails, vote for candidate sure to put her paw inyour pocket and lift your wallet, Dr. Melody Frankenbunny. 

Respectfully,

Melody's Press Secretary

PS Melody agrees Mr. Tumnus would make a good Veep, however, ha has to send a small check for $1,000 to be considered on her long list of hoppers.


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## Haley (Aug 29, 2008)

*lalena2148 wrote: *


> PSST...I think Mr. Tumnus should run for President w/ Lucy as his VP. That's winning ticket right there!


Uh oh- Dr. Melody would have some stiff competition. With Tumnus'sdashing good looks and ability to charm the masses and Melody's fiesty working class girl reputation we just might have another Obama/Hillary mess on our hands regarding who should be the Bunny Nominee


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## seniorcats (Aug 29, 2008)

*Haley wrote: *


> *lalena2148 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > PSST...I think Mr. Tumnus should run for President w/ Lucy as his VP. That's winning ticket right there!
> ...


Huh? Melody take 2nd place to mere male rabbit? No! She will graciously allow Tumnus to be her Vice President. Sparky, Scooter and Scone McBunny,of course, will get Supreme Court appointments.


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## lalena2148 (Aug 29, 2008)

*seniorcats wrote: *


> I hope this thread doesn't become 'too hot to handle.'


I hope my comments weren't too out of line. I think it's great that we have a choice in this country based on our own beliefs and choices. :USAflagwaving:Freedom of speech is pretty cool. 

By the way, I think a whole bunny presidential cabinet would be great. I could only imagine what they'd add to the consitution. :headsmack


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## TinysMom (Aug 29, 2008)

*seniorcats wrote: *


> On the experience issue - Obamatook office as as a US Senator in 2005. He's been running for President for the past 2 years. He has no executive experience - ie daily decision making, which any Governor certainly has. Sarah Palin has an unprecedented 83% approval rating from the peopleshe serves in Alaska.
> 
> As for experience in office: Dwight Eisenhower was elected President without having ever held any other elected office. So was Andrew Jackson and Ulysses S. Grant. There may be a few other Presidents I missed.
> 
> ...


First of all - thanks for the history lesson. I didn't realize that information about Dwight Eisenhower and the others. 

I think there are a couple of reasons I'm so impressed with McCain's choice. We lived in Alaska for four years, the fact that Sarah Palin took on the "good old boys" and won...shocks me. I'm pleased that she has made choices like said, "We don't want the bridge that goes to nowhere...if we want a bridge...we'll build it ourselves." I'm pleased with the fact she tried to clean up the ethics, etc. of Alaska politics and she has even welcomed an investigation into something that she has been accused of (firing someone who would not fire her brother-in-law during a fierce custody battle). From what I've read - she has welcomed the investigation as she wants to prove she did nothing wrong. 

From what I've read of Palin today - instead of talking - she has taken action on issues. In her short time in office she has accomplished things she believed in - versus sitting back and making speeches on them. 

I also wonder - and I don't know the answer to this - but did President Clinton have foreign policy experience when he was first elected? I was thinking he was a governor like Palin (only he had been a governor longer).

I also like the fact that McCain picked her because in a way - it shows that he is not looking for a Washington "insider". In spite of the fact I didn't agree with his social politices, I halfway hoped that McCain would pick Sen. Lieberman to show that he can cross the party lines - and especially when I read about what good friends they are. 

One of the things that isn't shared much about McCain (at least I didn't know about it until recently - when I heard Jon Voight speaking about it) is that his wife, Cindy McCain is very active in helping children. She formed and ran an organization (American Voluntary Medical Team - AMVT) to help children who had health problems and has led something like 55 medical trips to help children around the world? I think that is the number. Once she returned from Mother Theresa's orphanage with two children - one of which clung to her as they left the plane. John and Cindy McCain went on to adopt that little girl. I forget the exact words John McCain said as Cindy left the plane - something about "It looks like we have another child" or something...

Stories like these don't get told often - I don't know if they'll get told at the convention or not (I hope so).

Anyway - I guess I'll close this by saying that I didn't want to be swayed by Barack's charisma - so I read his speech last night vs. watching it. I have to commend him - I think it was an excellent speech and I'm sure he swayed a lot of voters with it. He made some good points - there were some inaccuracies in it from what I've read - but he really did a good job of reaching out to the "common man". 

I think it is going to be a very interesting time coming up - I'm betting many in other nations will be watching with interest (maybe even with more interest than some of us Americans). 

To be honest - I'm really looking forward to it. I had considered not even voting this year - I was that disenchanted with McCain for a bit. Now I'm considering volunteering and have been browsing his website and trying to make a decision on if I have the time to do anything. 

I'm especially looking forward to the vice presidential debate. I think that will be very interesting!


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## TinysMom (Aug 29, 2008)

Dr. Melody may have competition - I just found this on the computer....(I KNEW Zeus wasn't just staying in the garage all the time...).


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## seniorcats (Aug 30, 2008)

*TinysMom wrote: *


> I also wonder - and I don't know the answer to this - but did President Clinton have foreign policy experience when he was first elected? I was thinking he was a governor like Palin (only he had been a governor longer).






Correct, Bill Clinton had no foreign policy experience when he ran for the White House. He was the 40th and 42 governor of Arkansas.


Got news for ya'll, Melody is a low down street fighin' radical bunny. She will stop at nothing. She believes in the total subjugation of the human race. Humans, of any race, creed, color, national origin,are inherently inferior to bunnies. 

Mel is very impressed with Zeus. He's just her kind of guy - big, handsome and uppity eared.

Melody is not very scrupulous about money either. During her last bid for the Presidency in 2004, she stole all the campaign funds andhopped off to the Cayman Islands.


Forgot something: Remember tha ballot will have all sorts of other candidates on it. We are about guarateed a Libertarian candidate and the infamous Lyndon LaRouche and/or Angela Davis of the American Communist party.


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## TinysMom (Aug 30, 2008)

Zeus has the one ear up....and one ear down.....to show he can cross bunny party lines and work with both lops and uppity eared bunnies.


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## seniorcats (Aug 30, 2008)

A few more Presidential experience facts. I did forget one president with no elected experience:

Herbert Hoover never served in an elected office until he became President. He did serve in an appointed federal office. HH who served as Secretary of Commerce in the Harding and Coolidge administrations and in various capacities in humanitarian projects during and after World War I, but never ran for an elective office before winning the Presidency in 1928. A Quaker, he never served in the military. 

Now here comes my favorite. Abraham Lincoln never served in a federal office prior to becoming President. He did serve 8 years as a Senator in the state of Illinois but not in the US Senate.

inkelepht:


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## Bo B Bunny (Aug 30, 2008)

*We can keep it in line!  lalena don't worry. We all have strong opinions and that's actually very good. I am interested in what others have to say - I consider voting a very wonderful right that we all have. Regardless of how you vote, I am glad you take the time to do it, and that we are discussing the candidates! *

*Peg, Tell Zeus that Tony has been practicing so that he has experience in the "Zeus L" *






*lalena2148 wrote: *


> *seniorcats wrote: *
> 
> 
> > I hope this thread doesn't become 'too hot to handle.'
> ...


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## TinysMom (Aug 30, 2008)

Ok - I'm sorta poking fun....I think this is funny.

I was reading on a website comments from various people about McCain's choice and here is what someone who lives in Alaska shared...

Sarah Palinâs first act as governer was to sell off the jet her predecesor insisted on buying against the will of the Alaskan residents (even thought they were BOTH Republicans). She said she doesnât NEED one! As a matter of fact she was recently in a minor fender bender on the way to work and SHE was driving, because she insists she doesnât NEED a driver or limo!

Now here is where the poking fun is gonna come in.....if anyone has ever watched the 7th season of West Wing...there is this segment where Leo McGarry (the VP on the ticket) is to meet his secret service contingent. He's brought into a room filled with these people in suits and is like, 'Ok..who is assigned to me and who is assigned to Santos..." and then he finds out they're all assigned to him..and he's sorta shocked.

After reading this comment above and other things about Governor Palin -I almost picture her being told about her secret service contigent...pulling a gun out of her back pocket and saying, "I can handle it myself...." and I just started laughing.

I think it is because we lived in Alaska for four years and I saw a lot of the "I can do it myself" attitude in folks up there.

I just thought I'd share that bit of humor.....

...oh and Zeus says he's open to running as VP or Prez....he figures if he runs as VP he's in less danger of being assasinated...so he's happy to leave that to Dr. Melody.

But he does insist on 10% of the campaign funds for his craisin addiction...uh....habit...uh..yeah...whatever.


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## seniorcats (Aug 30, 2008)

Zeus is really appealing to Melody. She is giving him the binky of approval. She completely undesrtands about the crack, er um , craisin habit. Mel had to go to Craisin 12 Steps a few years back to break the vicious cycle. Mel may be inviting Zeus over for an evenng of carrot martini's, excuse me, a strategy session.


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## JadeIcing (Aug 30, 2008)

Something on Palin

Another article

Add on two more things she is against that I feel very strongly about. Also one she is for that I am against.

I am glad she stands strong for what she feels is right,even if it is against most of what I believe. I can't fault her for being true to what she sees as right.


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## JadeIcing (Aug 30, 2008)

Another Article


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## TinysMom (Aug 30, 2008)

First of all - Bo - Zeus says Tony looks great - but Zeus finds that he gets more does if he keeps the one ear down further...so Tony might want to practice that if he wants a harem someday. 

To Melody - Zeus wants to know if the 12 step program worked. If so - he might send his love Tibba so that then he can get all the craisins for himself instead of having to share them with her. He also wants to know if the 12 step program will work for their daily banana treat.

Ali - thanks for those articles - I really enjoyed them. I know most of you will disagree with me - but the more I read of Palin - the more I like her and the more I want to volunteer for the party if I could find the time. (Also - I'm very very shy by nature so I don't know what I could do). 

One of the things I like about the choice of Palin is that she is an ordinary person. She wasn't born to a rich family. She got into politics because of something she believed in. 

I was watching a tv interview with someone (I forget who - I wanted to say Kay Hutchinson but I don't think it was her) and they pointed out that when Senator Obama was starting his race for the senate - Governor Palin had already been the mayor of Wasilla for 5 years. (If the facts are wrong - it is because I am remembering them wrong). By the time he started his run for the Presidency...she had also chaired the Alaska Conservation Commission which regulates the oil and gas in Alaska. 

While she was mayor she reduced property taxes while increasing the services to the city and she also drew in more industry. Once again - this was before Senator Obama was even running for the senate.

This next part is from her website because I can't write it as well.....but since taking office in December of 2006 she has...

 Since taking office, her top priorities have been resource development, education and workforce development, public health and safety, and transportation and infrastructure development.

Under her leadership, Alaska invested $5 billion in state savings, overhauled education funding, and implemented the Senior Benefits Program that provides support for low-income older Alaskans. She created Alaskaâs Petroleum Systems Integrity Office to provide oversight and maintenance of oil and gas equipment, facilities and infrastructure, and the Climate Change Subcabinet to prepare a climate change strategy for Alaska. 

I guess that the point I'm trying to make is that while many may argue inexperience here....she has a reputation for getting things done. She has bucked the system in order to get things done too.

I really really really think this is going to be an interesting race - probably the first election in many many years where I've been excited. Its probably the first race in a while where I've thought about what a privilege it is that we have to vote...something my mom kept pointing out to me (she's 80 years old and has voted in every election that she's been able to vote in). 

I also think its neat that McCain picked someone who doesn't agree with him about some things - like drilling in ANWR. It shows that he doesn't want a "yes man" type of VP. 

I really am looking forward to the debates now - and I really wish that there would be something like Rick Warren did at Saddleback Church for the VP candidates - because I think we'd get to know them a bit better....both of them.


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## seniorcats (Aug 30, 2008)

To Zeus - Melody says 'nope' Craisin 12 Steps did not work. However, she and Ali Bunny are at the mercy of their worthless human when it comes to Craisins. Their treats are rationed. This is why Melody wants to be President, so she can compel humans to give her more craisins.

Melody passes on this hint: WalMart has their own Great Value brand of Craisins that are much cheaper than the name brand. See, Mel is fiscally responsible when it comes to buying bunny crack.


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## TinysMom (Aug 30, 2008)

Has anyone here ever gone to factcheck.org and read some of the stuff there? Its really fascinating.

They're not in support of any one candidate....they're not paid for by lobbyists or special interest groups (if I read about them right). 

They have information pointing out inaccuracies in both Obama's speeches/ads and McCain's speeches/ads.

Here are a couple of neat links:

About Obama's acceptance speech:
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_obama.html

And about McCain - I think this was the most current one - sorry if I'm wrong..

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/more_tax_deceptions.html

I think I'm going to be visiting that site a lot - to read about both candidates and their speeches and ads, etc.


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## TinysMom (Aug 30, 2008)

*seniorcats wrote: *


> To Zeus - Melody says 'nope' Craisin 12 Steps did not work. However, she and Ali Bunny are at the mercy of their worthless human when it comes to Craisins. Their treats are rationed. This is why Melody wants to be President, so she can compel humans to give her more craisins.
> 
> Melody passes on this hint: WalMart has their own Great Value brand of Craisins that are much cheaper than the name brand. See, Mel is fiscally responsible when it comes to buying bunny crack.


Zeus has tried the Walmart brand and sometimes has to settle on them when his slave grabs them instead of Ocean Spray. He believes in being fiscally responsible but says what good is money if it isn't buying "the best for the bunny". 

He also says he isn't a fan of Walmart and wants to support Ocean Spray...he insists I need to go to factcheck.org to make sure the content in both brands is worthy of his awesomeness...

Me? I think he's got a big head..


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## SOOOSKA (Aug 30, 2008)

I love reading everyone's opinions on here. Verygood comments for both parties. 

It's going to be a very interesting race, I myself liked Hilary but then I really like Bill too. Yeah he probably wasn't the best husband, (but she did forgive him and stayed with him) however what little I know or read or hear on TV it sounds like he was a good President.

Good God now it looks like Canada will be going to the polls sometime in October. Now you want to see a few real IDIOTS running for Prime Minister just check out our candidates. Honestly their isn't one I like. But I do feel I need to vote. I truly feel if you don't vote you really *shouldn't *be out their complaining. And after all as a woman it really hasn't been that many years that we have had the chance to vote.

Susan











I had to edit, the word "should" should have been shouldn't


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## seniorcats (Aug 30, 2008)

*SOOOSKA wrote: *


> I love reading everyone's opinions on here. Verygood comments for both parties.
> 
> It's going to be a very interesting race, I myself liked Hilary but then I really like Bill too. Yeah he probably wasn't the best husband, (but she did forgive him and stayed with him) however what little I know or read or hear on TV it sounds like he was a good President.
> 
> ...


Now I have to go check out the Canadian elections. My husband has a bunch of sites bookmarked as he loves reading about Canadian politics and government. I am constantly surprised about how much he knows especially on provincial issues.


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## Bo B Bunny (Aug 30, 2008)

Peg, they're politicians...... they're all crooked! LOL! 

If you get the little papaya cubes from the natural foods section in the grocery.... you might find the craisen addiction has progressed...... Clover will even eat that from our hands!


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## seniorcats (Aug 30, 2008)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> Peg, they're politicians...... they're all crooked! LOL!
> 
> If you get the little papaya cubes from the natural foods section in the grocery.... you might find the craisen addiction has progressed...... Clover will even eat that from our hands!




I am not a crook. (Richard Nixon)

I have the perfect solution for all of us no matter the party.

*Elvis for president!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

:elvis2:



While I'm thinking about Elvis, I ordered 2 Christmas presents for the shelter from Shop elvis. They have excellent customer service and speedy mailing just in case someone has the urge to order.

http://www.shopelvis.com/Default.aspx


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## Bo B Bunny (Aug 31, 2008)

Wella wella, ....... I agree!


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## TinysMom (Aug 31, 2008)

I have a question for y'all about the Republican convention. 

With Gustav on its way towards the Louisiana coastline....do you think the convention should be postponed? Do you think it should go ahead as planned? What do you think?

I'm curious about this as I was really starting to look forward to watching the convention and now seeing that they may postpone it - makes me disappointed. 

I do think that President Bush should not speak AT the convention but should instead be closer to where the hurricane hits to be able to grant emergency relief, etc. Then again - it isn't as if he will be using equipment to help folks....

Anyway - I'm just curious about what y'all think. 

I know next week there is a really good chance I'll be turning on the tv (something I haven't done in about 3 months as I normally read the internet) and watching the convention..


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## SOOOSKA (Aug 31, 2008)

Hey Peg, I thought I heard that they may still have the convention but they don't want it to be a party like atmosphere. I heard some of the announcers saying that they may have it so people can donate money for relief. Honestly i think if they do this it may get them some votes.

I to was looking forward to the convention just to see what they have to say. I also watched Larry King last week as he had on Republican people discussing all the speeches. This week he is going to have on Democrats to do the same thing.

Susan


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## TinysMom (Aug 31, 2008)

I agree that they shouldn't have a "party-like" atmosphere - but I was really looking forward to hearing the speeches of certain people. 

I was really hoping that people would get to hear more about Sarah Palin (I've been doing some reading about her as Alaska's Governor and the things she's done - and I've been reading things from both the left and the right to get a better picture). I've done more reading about the McCains too - I never liked him during President Bush's first term in office as I saw him as a thorn in the President's side. However, the more I've read the more I want to know more about him.

I also am hoping that when Senator McCain speaks - that he will give specific examples of what he wants to do. While I liked the some of the message behind Senator Obama's speech - I felt like he was not specific enough (from what I'm reading so did several others and I don't mean just from the GOP or Fox News). 

Anyway - to go back to the topic of the convention - I can't say that I care a lot about some of the speakers. If President Bush doesn't speak - it won't break my heart. I'd rather be hearing from Cindy McCain or Sarah Palin. I'd rather hear more about what McCain sees for the future - than what has happened in the past.

I heard one interview (I can't remember where I heard it as I've been going to CNN, Fox News and MSNBC) that I want to find again. It was Steve Forbes of Forbes magazine talking about the economy and how each candidates' plans would affect that. Susan - was that on Larry King? I don't think so. I'm going to have to look again - I'm wondering if it was on FoxNews since I think Forbes is a Republican or something.... He had interesting things to say about both plans....

Anyway - I don't mind if they use part of the convention to raise money for the hurricane victims - that would be fine. I don't mind if Senator McCain spends the first three days of the convention handing out water to the victims...or searching through the rubble. I just want him to speak the last night and explain to us all why he picked Sarah Palin and why we should vote for him. (Mind you - my mind is made up...but still yet - I want to hear him explain things). I also want him to NOT spin the truth. 

I doubt that will happen....but it would be nice!


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## seniorcats (Aug 31, 2008)

That's a lot to think about. I guess I am trying to be very practical. Life goes on its daily course, the convention should go on. Looking at it from a purely economic point, Minneapolis would probably suffer financially. It would also be an opportunity to raise funds, if needed, for hurrican relief.

Maybe they should skip the party part and the Elvis impersonators!

I pray for those people in the path of this hurricane. Thank God the state now has a Governor, Bobbie Jindal,with the brains to call up the National Guard (only the Governor can) and the integrity to see that relief funds go to the needy and not into a corrupt family dynasty's pocket.


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## TinysMom (Aug 31, 2008)

From CNN

*St. Paul (CNN)* â Sen. John McCain said the Republican National Convention will suspend most of the activities scheduled Monday because of Hurricane Gustav.
âWeâll pray for the best and prepare for the worst,â the presumptive Republican presidential candidate said Sunday, quoting Gulf Coast Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour. 
Campaign manager Rick Davis said Republicans would meet in an abbreviated fashion, conducting only what was necessary to constitute a convention, such as calling the convention to order, receiving a report from the credential committee and adopting the party platform.
âTomorrowâs program will be business only and will refrain from any political rhetoric,â he said. 
The convention will begin at its regularly scheduled time, 3 p.m. CT. Davis said the convention would adjourn around 5 or 5:30 PM. 
The GOPâs four-day program was originally scheduled to begin Monday in St. Paul, Minnesota. Davis said the rest of the week would be determined on a day-by-day basis.
Earlier Sunday, Sen. John McCain said it wouldn't be appropriate to hold a political celebration during the storm. 
"We must redirect our efforts from the really celebratory event of the nomination of president and vice president of our party to acting as all Americans," he said, adding that it was likely the event would change into a "call to the nation for action."
"I pledge that tomorrow night, and if necessary, throughout our convention â¦ to act as Americans, not Republicans, because America needs us now no matter whether we are Republican or Democrat," he said.
Also on Sunday, the White House announced that President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney would not be in attendance.


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## TinysMom (Aug 31, 2008)

I have got to say that I really didn't know much (still don't) about Governor Jindal - but when I watched his press briefing - I don't know - there is something about him that I really liked. He seems to genuinely care about his people or something - I can't explain it. I was also pleased and surprised to see he had someone signing what he said too - I love watching people use sign language.

I forgot to add this - I thought it was interesting - also from CNN but another article..

The McCain campaign arranged a charter flight from Minneapolis-St. Paul to Jackson, Mississippi, on Sunday afternoon for delegates who wish to return to the Gulf Coast region ahead of Hurricane Gustav.
Louisiana Republican State Party Chair Roger Villere Jr. said some of his states' delegates have already departed, while others plan to leave.
The same plane will fly back to Minnesota if delegates have children or other family members they want to remove from the area.
[align=center]AND THEY ALSO SAID THIS....
[/align] A senior McCain source said Saturday that officials were considering turning the convention into a massive telethon to raise money for the Red Cross and other agencies to help with hurricane aid.

[line]
Anyway - I'm a bit disappointed but I think they're doing the right thing. I'm sure they're trying to stay on top of what is happening with Gustav and make decisions that they feel are the best.
I just feel bad that we may not get the full normal convention we'd planned on. But still yet....I have to respect them for the decisions they're making.


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## Haley (Aug 31, 2008)

I agree, Peg. After the Democrats got a week of full blown media coverage I was looking forward to the RNC. From a strictly political standpoint, this stinks for Republicans since each party usually gets a boost from their respective convention. However, theres not much else they can do in light of the devastating weather coming and I think theyre doing the right thing.


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## JadeIcing (Sep 1, 2008)

So who is ready for this to start?


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## TinysMom (Sep 1, 2008)

*JadeIcing wrote: *


> So who is ready for this to start?


I'm ready for it to start - but I am guessing the delegates are exhausted. I just heard that the delegates and alternates were on a phone bank today calling all over the US - and they raised ONE MILLION DOLLARS to help out the victims of Gustav. 

I don't know what they're going to do with that money....how it will be used (for supplies or whatever)...


....but after working on phones for customer service for several months - I don't envy those folks.

So I guess I'll be ok waiting till tomorrow (hopefully it will start tomorrow night).


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## TinysMom (Sep 1, 2008)

Oh wow - I don't have a Target near me - but this would make me want to shop there....Ali - you have got to be proud of Target since you worked there...

From the RNC website - about their activities tomorrow:

The 2008 Republican National Convention has joined with Target, FedEx, and the Red Cross to send 80,000 "comfort packages" to the Gulf Coast region. The packages will be assembled at the Minneapolis Convention Center in a staging area being assembled today. The packages will have basic necessities donated by Target, including toothpaste, toothbrushes, deodorant, soap, granola bars, and other prepackaged foods. The donated materials will arrive in Saint Paul on Wednesday at 8 a.m., and FedEx will ship the packages to the appropriate locations.

I understand we don't know what ALL the needs are by any means - and I know that Senator Obama is asking his people to help too....but for Target to donate 80,000 of each of those items....that ain't cheap....(I know - it won't break their budget either - but still yet).

I just became a TARGET fan and may shop on their website when it gets closer to Christmas time...


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## JadeIcing (Sep 2, 2008)

Target donates money in the millions to Red Cross and the Salvation Army EVERY YEAR. This is not counting what they donate in situations like this. They sent things in Cali with the fires, also during the floods. Each store is expected to do alot locally. Ifyou have aTarget Card they will send a portion to the school ofyour choice. It is theTakeCharge of Education Program.

Right now Targets current in store campaign is for UNITED WAY. We are doing raffles, talent shows and ALOT more.

Over the summer we (our store) did theRelay for Life. We raised over $2,000 in about a month. Our store matched a percentage of it and evendonated stuff toour raffle.


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## gentle giants (Sep 2, 2008)

*JadeIcing wrote: *


> So we either have a black guy and a white guy or a white guy and a white lady. This just got intresting.



Actually, Obama isn't black, he's Middle Eastern. Also, for anyone who owns any kind of gun, if either Hillary or Obama gets in, count on losing it. They are both very anti-gun. They are also both pro-abortion, while I am VERY pro-life.

I feel like the choices are basically going to be "the lesser of two evils" as well, it seems like very election it gets worse.


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## JadeIcing (Sep 2, 2008)

*Ok man of color. I meant skin color. In my eyes we all came from two people so we all have something in us. If you want to get techinacal I am more white than spanish. *

*gentle giants wrote: *


> *JadeIcing wrote: *
> 
> 
> > So we either have a black guy and a white guy or a white guy and a white lady. This just got intresting.
> ...


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## Haley (Sep 2, 2008)

Actually he is black.His mother was white and his father was Kenyan (which is in Africa). Since "black' usually refers to people of African decent, Id say he's technically half black 


He is not Middle Eastern, although his father was a practicing Muslim early on (which could be why people think Middle Eastern).


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## Bo B Bunny (Sep 2, 2008)

*gentle giants wrote: *


> *JadeIcing wrote: *
> 
> 
> > So we either have a black guy and a white guy or a white guy and a white lady. This just got intresting.
> ...



No, he's half black and half white. (which is legally black) His father was a black man from Kenya, his mom a white woman from Kansas. Her second husband was from Indonesia (where Barak spent part of his life).

He was born in Hawaii, went to Indonesia, came back to Hawaii with his grandparents.


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## JadeIcing (Sep 2, 2008)

I never pay attention to that but nice to know.


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## SOOOSKA (Sep 2, 2008)

Bo B, here's another bright question. Why if he has one parent that's White and one that's Black is he considered Black. I find this very confusing as one of his parents is white. Same a Tiger Woods, he's half black and half Oriental (I forget where his Mom is from) but everyone refers to him as Black. I think if I was the white parent I would be quite upset hearing my child being referred to as Black, it's as if the one parents heritage doesn't mean anything.

Do you understand where I'm coming from?

Susan


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## Bo B Bunny (Sep 2, 2008)

Don't ask me! I think it's goofy too! but it's the way the system works!

We have debated checking the DNA of my son for American Indian percentage - we feel there is enough in there to warrant his and my daughter being that, and that would give them some benefits but...... at what cost?


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## Haley (Sep 2, 2008)

Susan, its a cultural thing dating back to slavery with the "one drop rule". I usually dont cite Wikipedia but heres a quote from there which explains it:

The *one-drop rule* is a historical colloquial term in the United States that holds that a person with any trace of African ancestry is considered black unless having an alternative non-white ancestry which he or she can claim, such as Native American, Asian, Arab, or Australian aboriginal. It developed most strongly out of the binary culture of long years of institutionalized slavery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_drop_rule


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## ~Domino~ (Sep 3, 2008)

I'm like most of you, and most of the people I have talked to, I don't necessarily like either of the presidential candidates. I've never been a big Clinton supporter but I can honestly admit I was strongly leaning towards her. After she "lost" the race, I haven't known whether or not I was for Obama or McCain. 

I just turned 18 in August and I've always wanted to vote. So as you can imagine I've been following the race pretty closely. I was raised a Republican. My father is retired from the military after serving 20 something odd years. He has VERY strong Republican views. I also believed I was republican, up until the middle of my freshman year in high school. That's when I finally opened my eyes to the world around me and saw it for what it really is. 

As of right now, I will probably be voting for Obama. I believe McCain's views are too conservative (and they really aren't that conservative). Our society needs a change of which is not going to happen if we keep conservative views. Obviously the society in which we are living in is changing and there is going to be a great struggle if the administration that is in office tries to keep a conservative view. 

I definitely made my choice on who I am going to vote for after I heard who McCain chose as his vice presidential candidate. Even thinking that she may become a vice president sickins me for A LOT of reasons. Don't get me wrong, I am a woman and I believe it is about time there has been a woman in office. She however, is NOT that woman. Reasons you ask? Here are some:

She supports having intelligent design taught in schools. For some of you this might actually be something you are for. However to me this is a diaster. I am going to school to be a veterinarian (I'm an undergraduate going through the pre-vet program right now) and so as you can imagine, I am having to take lots of science courses. To have intelligent design brought into the science textbook really bothers me on so many levels. I could write pages on why this is such a bad idea but I will say this, I believe in seperation of Church and State. If someone actually wants to debate on this believe me I will, but I will just say I believe she is wrong on this stance.

She wants to open ANWR for drilling. Ummm...how will this help us anytime soon? According to the Energy Information Administration, we wouldn't see the price of gas drop until the year 2026 to $.75 a barrel! So quite frankly, if America (even the rest of the world) is still dependent upon oil by that year, we are in big bunny crap. This is one thing that sounds great but it's going to take way too long before we even see any of the oil of Alaska. Also, ANWR isn't going to be able to produce enough oil to make us Americans happy whether we like it or not. So we would still be at the mercy of OPEC that can increase/decrease oil production in order to affect oil prices world wide. Also, she argues that ANWR oil development drilling is only going to effect 2000 acres out of I believe 19 million acres (please correct me if I'm wrong). That sounds pretty good right? Wrong. Roads, support structures, pipelines, etc. are all going to have to be built in order to keep drilling sustained. Thus it will take up much more space. We all know that roads basically kill the wilderness anyways. 
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/servicerpt/anwr/results.html

McCain and her are both for abstinence-only education. If you grew up in the era that I did, you and I both know that this doesn't work. The media portrays sex more and more everyday and teens are naturally drawn to it. So you think that telling us teens we aren't allowed to have sex at all is going to keep teens from doing it? Wrong. Unfortuantly this looks good on paper but doesn't work in a real world with real people. Whether or not anyone likes it, I know from experience most of my peers have had sex (not necessarily intercourse I suppose you can say) in their early teen/pre-teen years for the first time. It's sad yes and most probably contract a disease of some kind. Safe sex has to be taught in the classrooms, that's all I can say. I hate the fact that it has to be but abstience-only education hasn't lowerd teen pregnancy but almost like it highered the rate. Another thing that makes me go Huh? with Paulin is that she ha a daughter that is 17 and is pregnant? So where do these abstinence-only education methods work if even her daughter is having trouble with the issue? Perhaps there is more to this story so I am not going to try to poke holes into it...yet. 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8470845/
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080319151225.htm

She's Anti-Choice. Palin, a member of the anti-choice group Feminists for Life, said during her campaign for governor that she is opposed to abortion, even in cases of rape or incest. I have to admit I am Pro-choice. I believe it is the woman's choice. I also strongly do not believe a woman should have to give birth to a baby concieved from rape or incest. Mind you I do not support partial birth of any kind. I don't categorize myself as a feminist but I believe having Palin as a vice president would set women back from moving forward. America is such a great country because we, women and men, have certain freedoms that many other countries don't. I would rather that not to be taken away or restricted. It really bothers me that she is a woman but yet..it's almost as if she is trying to hold women back. 
http://www.naral.org/elections/election-pr/pr08292008_palin.html
http://www.feministing.com/archives/010705.html

Now I just made a huge post and I have more to say but I'm gonna go eat something and then study some. Just hearing how a lot of people think she's the greatest choice McCain could ever had made, really REALLY bothers me. I kinda felt like I had to rant.


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## gentle giants (Sep 4, 2008)

*Well, I gotta admit, everything you just mentioned here just makes me like her more. I will try not to rant at all on this, cause these are subjects that are very near and dear to me. *

*~Domino~ wrote: *


> She supports having intelligent design taught in schools. For some of you this might actually be something you are for. However to me this is a diaster. I am going to school to be a veterinarian (I'm an undergraduate going through the pre-vet program right now) and so as you can imagine, I am having to take lots of science courses. To have intelligent design brought into the science textbook really bothers me on so many levels.





> *I do think that this is a good idea. I will not go into all the reasons why right now, but I think evolution islaughable, personally.*





> McCain and her are both for abstinence-only education. If you grew up in the era that I did, you and I both know that this doesn't work. The media portrays sex more and more everyday and teens are naturally drawn to it. So you think that telling us teens we aren't allowed to have sex at all is going to keep teens from doing it? Wrong.





> *I am no expert, but here's the thing. It is true that the media is constantly portaying sex everywhere you look, (mabye we should do something about that, too?) but I think that is all the more reason to teach abstinence. Mabye a compromise would be in order here? Make sure that birth control isstill available, and information on how to use it, whatever the teaching, I do believe that is neccesary.*
> She's Anti-Choice. Palin, a member of the anti-choice group Feminists for Life, said during her campaign for governor that she is opposed to abortion, even in cases of rape or incest.





> *I am also pro-life, yes, even in cases of rape or incest. First because even if it is the product of rape, it's still a child, and it deserves to have whatever life it can. There is always adoption for anyone who would not want to raise such a child. Plus that's why we have the morning after pill. I cannnot even imagine getting an abortion. And yes, I have been faced with being pregnant out of wedlock, and it wasn't even a consideration for me. I know you probably don't have any kids yet, but I don't know how anyone who does have kids can look at their own child and think it's ok to kill one. To me, the abortion decision is not about the woman, it's about the child. Rape victims are only a small portion of those who get abortions, and anyone who has sex willingly and gets pregant-well, if you are old enough to have sex, you are old enough to know what could happen. I have no sympathy, and like I said, I've been there. *


Now I am going to shut up, before I REALLY get into a rant, LOL.


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## TinysMom (Sep 4, 2008)

*gentle giants wrote: *


> > *I am also pro-life, yes, even in cases of rape or incest. First because even if it is the product of rape, it's still a child, and it deserves to have whatever life it can. There is always adoption for anyone who would not want to raise such a child. Plus that's why we have the morning after pill. *
> 
> 
> Now I am going to shut up, before I REALLY get into a rant, LOL.


I guess I just want to put a bit of a personal touch on this topic. I really don't expect anyone to agree with me - but it might give them something to think about.

My birthmom was 13 when she conceived me - out of rape. It was incest. She was 14 when she had me. 

Had abortion been legal in 1960 - I might not be here - and my kids obviously wouldn't be here.

When I found her, I thought I'd wind up someone someone who was emotionally unstable after the abuse she suffered (for years)....I wondered if she'd had a normal life, etc. 

She said she was fine. Yes - it was tough. She went to live with a sister in another town. But never ever did abortion even cross her mind....nor did her family ever discuss it.

Domino - feel free to rant all you want - I feel the same way about your candidates that you feel about mine - and I do my share of ranting (ok - so I do most of it yelling at the computer monitor).

I believe that abstinence should be taught in the school - along with birth control. I was under the impression that was the way Sarah Palin felt too - but I haven't researched it.

I think this is going to be one of the most interesting election seasons coming up - is everyone else looking forward to the debates?


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## kirst3buns (Sep 4, 2008)

> I think this is going to be one of the most interesting election seasons coming up - is everyone else looking forward to the debates?


Yes, believe it or not, I am. 

While I have my views on all the things that have been mentioned here, the issues that really impact my life would have to be summed up as:


the economy 
education 
healthcare
I swear every election I am wondering if any of our elected leaders actually try to do something to make any of these better for the entire population and not just focus on their own careers and reelection. Call me cynical and undecided...besides carrots and craisins, where does melody frankenbunny stand? I always vote but I'm really struggling this time around. At least I have 60 days left to decide:?


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## seniorcats (Sep 4, 2008)

*kirst3buns wrote: *


> > I think this is going to be one of the most interesting election seasons coming up - is everyone else looking forward to the debates?
> 
> 
> Yes, believe it or not, I am.
> ...


Dr. Melody Frankenbunny stands for the total subjugation of the human race by rabbits. She wishes to enslave all humans to do her will. She is a sneaky, dirty-fighting, rable rousing, radical lagomorph terrorist and has been known to drop bunny 'pellets' in Easter baskets to scare small children into submission. She believes in applying her teeth and using intimidation to secure agreement. She is big, bold, loud and dramatic. The thing she loves most is being diabolical and devious. She also loves Craisins and mass quantities of cold hard cash. She is completely and utterly self-centered, ruthlessand untrustworthy. Dr. Mel will order you on how to vote. There will be only one candidate on her ballot.

On the other hand, there is her human owner, keeper, slave, guardian who is many things including a registered Republican,a Nazarene, and attempting to become a notorious eccentric. Said human enjoys the occassionalflirtation with the arbitrary and capricious but is usually quite boring. The human part of theFranknbunny regimeis currently dusting off her ancient Masters thesis onThomas Jefferson, the intent of the framers of the Constitution in writing the First Amendment and separationists (of which, she is one as was TJ).She plans on making use of this in a future post (oh....yawn).

The human is currently wondering when is lunch going to be served, why do people use the terms evangelical, fundamentalist and pentecostal as if they mean the same thing and why do people confuse rational deism, intelligent design and creationism and believe they are the same. 

Frankenbunny says: Vote early and often

Human says: Voting is precious hard-earned right that our forefathers and mothers fought and died to obtain and defend.


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## gentle giants (Sep 4, 2008)

*seniorcats wrote: *


> *kirst3buns wrote: *
> 
> 
> > > I think this is going to be one of the most interesting election seasons coming up - is everyone else looking forward to the debates?
> ...


How very refreshing, a candidate who is not afraid to be honest. :biggrin2:


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## JadeIcing (Sep 4, 2008)

*Wow. You said everythingI was feeling.*



*~Domino~ wrote: *


> I'm like most of you, and most of the people I have talked to, I don't necessarily like either of the presidential candidates. I've never been a big Clinton supporter but I can honestly admit I was strongly leaning towards her. After she "lost" the race, I haven't known whether or not I was for Obama or McCain.
> 
> I just turned 18 in August and I've always wanted to vote. So as you can imagine I've been following the race pretty closely. I was raised a Republican. My father is retired from the military after serving 20 something odd years. He has VERY strong Republican views. I also believed I was republican, up until the middle of my freshman year in high school. That's when I finally opened my eyes to the world around me and saw it for what it really is.
> 
> ...


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## kirst3buns (Sep 4, 2008)

> How very refreshing, a candidate who is not afraid to be honest. :biggrin2:


Not only honest, I bet she will follow through on all those campaign promises and really get something done!


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## Haley (Sep 4, 2008)

*kirst3buns wrote: *


> > How very refreshing, a candidate who is not afraid to be honest. :biggrin2:
> 
> 
> Not only honest, I bet she will follow through on all those campaign promises and really get something done!


I agree. I really like her. Im a political science major and used to be majorly active in the campaigns and such. I got very jaded in the past few years feeling like neither side had any answers. I have to say, Im not sure whether or not anyone can turn this country around (especially with this do-nothing congress) but for the first time in a while Im very excited about politics again. I got a little teary eyed listening to Governor Palin last night. I really like her energy and attitude.


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## JadeIcing (Sep 4, 2008)

*Ok this is where I want to comment. *

*gentle giants wrote: *


> *Well, I gotta admit, everything you just mentioned here just makes me like her more. I will try not to rant at all on this, cause these are subjects that are very near and dear to me. *
> 
> *~Domino~ wrote: *
> 
> ...


So do we go back to times where girls were sent to "Aunt Marys" to help with the kids because "Aunt Mary" is sick and needs help? Or do wego to a time where women died because of botched abortions?What about the mom who is at risk of dying?Does a girl or a woman have to spend nine months living through the constant reminder of what they went through. 

Do we lock girls away in a home, force them to lie to everyone about where they have been?Do we teach them to be ashamed. I think that is where we would be headed ifit wasn't legal.

Rape and incest... Some despite such horrible things even with the abilityto choose abortion still have the baby.Why should they not have the right.Some choose to still have the child. Some raise the child others give them up for adoption.

But if a girl is raped and she takes the morning after pill just because there could be a chance. I don't think she should have that taken away. 

My mom should not have had us. Did she know that at the time no. She almost died both times with us. She spent longer in the hospital than my brother who was born at 7months in 1987. She had 2 tubal pregancies. She was going to have them aborted in the end she did but the babies had already died. I love my brother more than anyone else. He is right there with my husband. I love my other siblings (half and step) just as much. Would I have loved those two babies? Yes more than anything. Would I have wanted them or my mother? I would choose my mother. Now if it was me? I have it in writing the baby comes first. I am second. I don't care what the reason I would give my life for any child. 


I also have the belief that if that life meant to be it will.

Than there is saying. Unless you have walked in a persons shoes....


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## ~Domino~ (Sep 4, 2008)

*gentle giants wrote: *


> *Well, I gotta admit, everything you just mentioned here just makes me like her more. I will try not to rant at all on this, cause these are subjects that are very near and dear to me. *
> 
> *~Domino~ wrote: *
> 
> ...


 I do not want to infringe upon any of your personal ideals or beliefs. I believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion, belief, and way of life. For me not to believe this way, would be hypocritical of myself. I also rather not fight or I suppose..argue, but have a sensible debate. I believe one can learn a lot from one. Anyhow, onto some things. 

Okay, first of all. What makes you think that evolution is a laughing matter? Even more so, what makes you think that intelligent design has any scientific basis? Enough that it should be taught in a SCIENCE class room? How can I put this simply...science is basically a way, a tool to explain the world around us. We can use science to predict what may happen in the future. If you've taken any basic science class such as biology/chemistry/physics then you should know that scientists first ask questions (hypothesis) and run experiments. In the hypothesis there is always a way in which the hypothesis can be disproved. Thus if ever during the experiment the hypothesis is proved to be inaccurate, then the scientists starts all over with another experiment. Now if we have a hypothesis that is tested time after time by MANY scientists then it might reach becoming a Theory. Thus you just can't do one or two experiments or use limited information to have a "theory". If you talk to any scientist they will tell you that a theory basically means they (scientific community) are pretty sure the hypothesis is absolutely true for you can NEVER completely prove anything in science. Think about the "law" / "theory" of gravity. It's pretty much 99.9 percent that your pencil will drop to the floor. But there is a that little percent that it might not happen under some circumstances. But that's a whole other branch of science, known as physics, which usually only PhD's worry about. 

Now onto the Theory of Evolution. Now you should know that "Theory" doesn't just mean it's thrown out there. That it's some silly thing of ideas that hasn't been tested/observed by MANY scientists throughout the world. So please, if there is one thing you take out of all this, it's that a "Theory" is NOT a hypothesis. Alright, one definition that the Webster dictionary gives us is this: "a theory that the various types of animals and plants have their origin in other preexisting types and that the distinguishable differences are due to modifications in successive generations" This is a pretty simple idea, nothing too complicated. Using this scientists are able to make predictions about species. They can even use this to help us understand why some species are they way they are. Why do Panda's have an opposable thumb? Or why do all species, including plants and us, share similar (the same in most cases) cell structures and purposes? Then can even help us understand viruses and create vaccines.

Intelligent Design tries to make itself an alternative to evolution. Now I'm not trying to bash anyone's personal religious beliefs whatever they are. I am going to try to simply explain why Intelligent Design is not an alternative to evolution and even more so, not a science. Intelligent Design in a way also tries to explain the diversity of life on earth. It simply says that life is too complicated to have arisen in any way other than having had a âdesignerâ of some sort. For Christians I suppose this would be God. For Hindus it would be Lord Brahma. One point Iâm trying to make here is that, if you plan to try to teach Intelligent Design in schools, you will have to teach it for ALL religions. We live in a country where there are many religions, whether anyone likes it or not. So even if you did get this into a public school into a SCIENCE classroom, you will run into this. Then we will have religion and sciences coinciding which is definitely not the separation of church and state. Anyways, I need to get back on track. So why isnât it science? Can Intelligent Design be tested? Please tell me if you come up with a way, because I havenât come across any. Iâve been studying evolution since my freshman year of high school believe it or not. Also..can you prove the existence or even absence of a âDesignerâ? If I remember correctly, the âDesignerâ is defined usually as unobservable. I suppose a few have been able to observe this âDesignerâ depending on the religion in question. Therefore Intelligent Design cannot be tested. In science if something cannot be tested, then it cannot be made a theory. One thing that really bothers me is that itâs almost like Intelligent Design keeps us from asking questions about the world around us. If we donâtâ ask questions and try to test the world, how would we ever cure diseases? What about finding vaccines? What about curing cancer? Understanding evolution has allowed us to understand life and many of these things to the point that we will someday find cures and vaccines. If you donât believe me itâs about time to do just a little research. Make sure you have reliable sources too. Intelligent Design basically just states why life is the way it is. It is complex because the âDesignerâ made it this way. And why in the world is something too complex that it shouldnât have questions asked? Itâs almost likeâ¦donât try to understand how life works. Thatâs what Intelligent Design is saying if you really read the definition. Science is HOW life is the way it is. The Theory of Evolution doesnât even have to contradict with religion. My physics teacher was a minister. She and I had a meaningful conversation about evolution. She supports it. Yes, a Christian minister. She believes the two can go hand and hand. I do too. Hereâs a couple of links that probably describe these concepts better. But Iâm going to ask you gentle giant, why is Intelligent Design suitable for a science classroom? I would love to hear a good reason. Honestly. Dang that was a lot, and I just touched a small basis.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-god.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-intro-to-biology.html
Now onto Abstinence Only education. Quite frankly, the only way to get rid of sex and violence being portrayed so readily on the media is to do censorship. That in itself is something that shouldnât happen in the United States. I suppose you should just make sure you know what your kids are watching. My dad even put a block on MTV. Iâve always been the weird teenager and I didnât even watch MTV, BET, or anything like that. I was/still am a total science geek and I watch Discovery and Animal Planet and National Geographic. But thatâs beside the point. I agree that birth control needs to be available. Condoms also. Thatâs what I believe. Iâve been through the school system recently. Iâve seen more than 15 girls from my middle school end up pregnant by the end of my senior year. Girls that I would have NEVER thought it would happen to. Why? Because I donât believe they taught us enough about the complications and diseases that you can get by having sex at such an early age. Abstinence is a good thing yes. And it should also be taught, but it CANâT be the only thing like Palin suggests. It just DOESNâT work. If you tell some kids not to touch a hot stove, what will some do? Touch it. Tell a teen not to go into a door? They will most likely go into it. Tell a teenager they canât have sex, what do you think some will do? Have sex. Perhaps itâs a rebellion thing. I donât know. Some peopleâs mentalities I suppose and it does have to do with some upbringing as in not enough education.
Okie dokie! Now onto Pro-Choice vs. Pro-Life. This is an odd subject for me to debate because I have mixed views. I personally know that I would NEVER have an abortion be that I have been raped or made a silly mistake. Incest on the other handâ¦I donât know. There is always adoption, but have you noticed how many kids are in foster care now days? Itâs sad, real sad. I donât believe a baby should be wanted by someone in the outside world to determine whether or not it should live. But I also do not feel it is fair for a child to have to grow up in a world of drugs if thatâs the way their parents live. I have personal experience in this area and I will share it if need be. The woman is carrying the child though. I agree if you get pregnant then you have made an adult decision. The child you are carrying shouldnât be punished for your actions. But then again, the morning after pill is a form of abortion considering it is killing the baby. The baby is already starting to form after one day. If for some reason I have a kid out of accident (which is probably 99.9 percent not going to happen unless Iâm raped quite honestly for reasons) like I said I wonât have an abortion. I just believe it is a womanâs choice to choose. We are all entitled to our own opinions. You have made valid points. I respect them. I just canât bring myself to saying that abortion should be made illegal as much as the idea of having one myself is repulsive. I agree that if you are old enough to have sex you better know the consequences. I donât believe anyone should have an abortion because they simply made a mistake or they donât want the child. I am for abortion if it is either in the motherâs life interest (life or death), rape, or incest. The child should not be punished though. This is just a tough issue altogether.
If I have offended anyone I am deeply sorry. This is not my main intention. Nor has it ever been. Iâm simply stating what I support. If you support her for what she is for, go you. Thatâs whatâs great about the United States, you have the freedom to choose. At first I was excited because I saw that McCain picked a woman to be his Vice Presidential candidate. But after reading a lot of stuff about her, what sheâs done in the past even, she has turned me completely away. Information is out there, you just have to find it and make sure itâs credible.


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## seniorcats (Sep 4, 2008)

*Haley wrote: *


> *kirst3buns wrote: *
> 
> 
> > > How very refreshing, a candidate who is not afraid to be honest. :biggrin2:
> ...



Aw shucks, I thought they meant Dr. Frankenbunny as candidate...

Haley, I agree with you and was also a Political Science (Comparative Government)major. I also like her energy and attitude. And I like mavericks (that goes without saying...).


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## ~Domino~ (Sep 4, 2008)

*TinysMom wrote: *


> *gentle giants wrote: *
> 
> 
> > > *I am also pro-life, yes, even in cases of rape or incest. First because even if it is the product of rape, it's still a child, and it deserves to have whatever life it can. There is always adoption for anyone who would not want to raise such a child. Plus that's why we have the morning after pill. *
> ...


Your mother has my utmost respect. Not only did she go through a pregnancy at such a young age, but also through one of horrible circumstances. I just feel that she (or a woman in her circumstances) should have had the choice to have one if the thought even crossed her mind. I'm not saying that she should have either. It's just the choice. Because I believe she, and every woman out there, has that choice. I rather not bring religion into this because...it just shouldn't be. Not if this is going to be made into a government law. Once again, separation of Church and State. 

I am glad that you did meet your mother though. Not everyone has that opportunity in the circumstances that you and your mother have gone through. 

From my research Sarah Palin (and McCain) seems to support just abstinence only education. In my opinion you have to throw some more sex education in there. But who knows...


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## ~Domino~ (Sep 4, 2008)

Just doing some basic research of Palin's history. She really isn't making an impression on me. She sounded like she had a great speech last night. But...she isn't really telling a lot of truth. Quite honestly I'm not even looking for articles that are critics of her. I am just looking for the truth. If you even take a look at a few of these, it's why I won't even think twice about voting for McCain anymore.

This is a letter from a woman that actually knows Sarah personally. Doing just a simple google search seems that this woman is actually credible. I had to make sure because at first i also had my doubts.
http://www.crosscut.com/politics-government/17341
Doubty people?
http://fairlyconservative.com/the-race-for-president/anne-kilkenny-are-we-witnessing-the-birth-of-an-urban-legend/

This is about her speech last night, that of which I watched.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/04/ap-attacks-praise-stretch_n_123771.html

Yeah...I don't like her. Even quite a few Republicans don't think she's qualified for the job. Why they are trying to make the rest of America believe I'm not sure.


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## Haley (Sep 4, 2008)

*seniorcats wrote: *


> *Haley wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *kirst3buns wrote: *
> ...


lol- they were- I just didnt realize it.


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## seniorcats (Sep 4, 2008)

> > Then we will have religion and sciences coinciding which is definitely not the separation of church and state.



Excuse me but I do not think you understand the meaning of 'the separation of church and state.' It does not mean freedom FROM religion nor does it mean a completely secular education, which would be an impossibility.

Separation of church and state refers to the limits our Constitution places on the power of the government (both federal and state) to legislate about religion. 
The Constitution places religion almost wholly outside the reach of government. In particular, the Constitution delegates no power to government over religious affairs, and the First Amendment explicitly prohibits the government from establishing or controlling religion. The effect of this arrangement is to leave Americans free to worship, believe, and support religion as they see fit. Additionally, we believe that separation deprives government of its ability to coerce adherence to religion, or to compel the support of religion against an individual's will. 

The Theory of Evolution is exactly that,a theory. Some partshave been proven and large parts have not proven. There is a world conference on evolution which meets annually to discuss those portions of the theory which have not been proven and to discuss any advances in proving the theory.

Sowhy deprive students by teaching them only one exiting theory of the origin of life? Isn't that contrary to the way in which a scientist is supposed to act? Doesn't it behove you to collect all data whether or not you 'belive in' it prior to reaching a conclusion. Excluding some data in an experiment because you do not like it is shoddy science. Isn't it? Having a conclusion, and working backwards from the conclusion to prove thatrather than collecting all evidence is also shoddy science.

I really fail to understand the narrow view that would permit only the teaching of only one theory. When I went to school all theories of the origin of humankind - Darwin's evolution, creationism and what is now called intelligent design. We were allowed exposure to all schools of thought not one narrow view. It seems that the prevalent attitude toward anything other than the theory of evolution is fear due to lack of understanding.

Why not allow students to hear all theories on the origin of life? It certainly would allow for more research and for critical thought rather than blind following the leader or accepting something out of fear of being different or ridiculed. 

There is no way education can be completely secular.Imagine teaching history without mentioning the Crusades or the Holocaust, or Englishor cultural or physical anthropology or any discipline.

I am not a fan of abstinence ONLY education.I don't believe it works, although like you, I am not presenting any evidence or studies to support that contention. Apparently sex education doesn't work either as plenty of teens are pregnant and have been pregnant after years of sex education in curriculum. Personally, I advocate a combination of abstinence education, sex education and most importantly, parental responsibility in educating their boys and girls.

Another quote from your post: If I remember correctly, the âDesignerâ is defined usually as unobservable. I suppose a few have been able to observe this âDesignerâ depending on the religion in question. Therefore Intelligent Design cannot be tested (end quote)

So that which is unobservable doesn't exist and cannot be tested? 

Let me take your words andmake a substitution: If I remember correctly, thewind is defined usually as unobservable. I suppose a few have been able to observe thiswind depending on the religion in question. 

Ludicrous, isn't it?


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## seniorcats (Sep 4, 2008)

Hey Peg - thank you for having the courage and trust to share your personal story with all of us.


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## Aina (Sep 4, 2008)

Ok, I tried to make this shorter, but it is still long. 
It is nice to see some people who agree with me on some things. The other boards I visit are all just bashing Palin and there is no dialog. Politics gets everyone riled up. I do believe this is the nicest discussion I have seen on politics, *ever.* lol.

I believe we should allow ID into the scientific dialogue. My dad is a professor and has a PhD minor in statistics, and wrote and excellent article about *why* science should allow ID. It was really long, so I paired it down some. Still really long. Anyways, ask me and I shall direct you to the full article. I know this board is always sweet to each other so sorry if anything in the article comes across as a bit stronger than the people on here are used to.







> The argument to exclude intelligent design from science goes like this. Since we cannot see a designer, we cannot conclude scientifically that one exists. This is a viable argument if it were equally applied to all competing explanations. Why should such a rule arbitrarily be forced on those who accept the more plausible explanation of intelligent design and not on those who posit the less plausible explanation of totally natural forces? For example, the naturalists are coming up with their theories as to how the universe came into existence, how life began, how the species evolved millions of years ago, how the geological formations of the world came into existence, and all kinds of other things that happened in a very distant past. Will we ever be able to observe any of these phenomena? Absolutely not. In fact, I think that there is a greater chance that we will see God than that we will see any of these events in the past. There are many records of perfectly sane people who have claimed to have encountered God. I know of not one single instance of a perfectly sane person claiming to have visited the past. So why can the anti-intellectual naturalists make their authoritative claims about something they have never seen?
> 
> Here is what true and pure science is, stripped of all the hyperbole and agenda driven definitions. Science is simply a quest to try to come up with the most plausible explanations for a full set of observable facts. That's it. Nothing more and nothing less.
> 
> ...


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## Pipp (Sep 5, 2008)

seniorcats wrote:
Aw shucks, I thought they meant Dr. Frankenbunny as candidate...
[/quote]

LOL! They did. And she's got my vote for sure.  

For the record, one of Palin's most favourite recreational pastimes is hunting and killing rabbits. She ENJOYS it. 

Thank God/IDesigner/hairy ancestors/amoebas I'm Canadian. :grumpy:








sas :Canada small:


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## ~Domino~ (Sep 5, 2008)

*seniorcats wrote: *


> > > Then we will have religion and sciences coinciding which is definitely not the separation of church and state.
> 
> 
> 
> Excuse me but I do not think you understand the meaning of 'the separation of church and state.' It does not mean freedom FROM religion nor does it mean a completely secular education, which would be an impossibility.


 Okay, Whoa! are you trying to tell me that religion is going to be FORCED upon me? I'm not free from religion if I so choose to be? Am I not free to choose any religion I would like to practice as long as I do no infringe upon the rights of another individual? Why can't we have a completely secular education? That makes no sense to me whatsoever.


> Separation of church and state refers to the limits our Constitution places on the power of the government (both federal and state) to legislate about religion.
> The Constitution places religion almost wholly outside the reach of government. In particular, the Constitution delegates no power to government over religious affairs, and the First Amendment explicitly prohibits the government from establishing or controlling religion. The effect of this arrangement is to leave Americans free to worship, believe, and support religion as they see fit. Additionally, we believe that separation deprives government of its ability to coerce adherence to religion, or to compel the support of religion against an individual's will.


 Exactly. Why Religion should NOT be in a science classroom. If you have Intelligent Design in the classroom (which isn't even fit for a science theory which if you read what i said and maybe clicked on a link or two would have figured out) that's forcing religion upon students. Additionally, we believe that separation deprives government of its ability to coerce adherence to religion, or to compel the support of religion against an individuals will.


> The Theory of Evolution is exactly that,a theory. Some partshave been proven and large parts have not proven. There is a world conference on evolution which meets annually to discuss those portions of the theory which have not been proven and to discuss any advances in proving the theory.


 This statement allows me to know that you havenât really read my post, otherwise you would know what a theory is. Itâs not just something simple. It isnât a bunch of assumptions, faith, or false information sandwich together. It is facts. Experiments and observations that have been done and one again. By many scientists, even all over the world. Not just one or two. So which âlarge portionsâ of the Theory of Evolution are you saying are not in fact âprovenâ ? I would like to know. Actually, proven is a word that isnât even used in science. I do know that they are always adding support to the theory of evolution. But they are also always adding support to the law of gravity (which by the way is subject to change). Oh and they are always adding more to the fields such as chemistry where they can even make new elements. Man made elements. Biology is always getting more and more advanced too. Thatâs the amazing part about science, experiments and hypotheses can be made again and again in order to move us further. Once one question is answered, another is asked. The never ending universe of questions. Science has to be built upon in order to climb the ladder. 


> Sowhy deprive students by teaching them only one exiting theory of the origin of life? Isn't that contrary to the way in which a scientist is supposed to act? Doesn't it behove you to collect all data whether or not you 'belive in' it prior to reaching a conclusion. Excluding some data in an experiment because you do not like it is shoddy science. Isn't it? Having a conclusion, and working backwards from the conclusion to prove thatrather than collecting all evidence is also shoddy science.


 Students aren't being deprived. What other theory of the origin of life is out there? Intelligent Design is not a theory. It hasn't had multiple experiments done to get to that status. That's what has to be done simply in order to achieve "theoryhood". The scientific method. I bet you've heard of that. A scientist does take multiple views. That's why if a hypothesis fails, they take another alternative until it does fail. Thus why there is a Theory of Evolution. Mulitple experiments and observations were done and the results agreed with the hypothesis. Other scientists conducted the same experiments and found the same results. I never said I don't like Intelligent Design. Nor have many scientists out there. It can't have an experiment done, thus scientists can't support it. Thus it isn't science and belongs in a whole other realm. That's as simple as I can get it. Do we have souls? Does God exist? Those cannot be proven by science (some people believe they can be dissproven but I personally do not believe science can disprove it) because experiments cannot be conducted in order to do so. I dont' understand your last statement. Are you trying to say Evolution is shoddy science because we can trace back organisms? If that's so, you need to do a little reading on genes and DNA. It's amazing stuff.


> I really fail to understand the narrow view that would permit only the teaching of only one theory. When I went to school all theories of the origin of humankind - Darwin's evolution, creationism and what is now called intelligent design. We were allowed exposure to all schools of thought not one narrow view. It seems that the prevalent attitude toward anything other than the theory of evolution is fear due to lack of understanding.


 Umm...it's not fear. It's that Creationism and Intelligent Design are simply not science. When you can conduct experiments to support them, then we can start putting it into text books. Otherwise, no. If you want your children taught that, that's what sunday school and church is for. Anyways, in the United States, what religion do you think will be taught? Exactly, just the views of Christianity. To me that's not fair. And if you do try to teach the majority of creationism views of all religions across the globe, do you realize how much classroom time you would lose? When Creationism and Intelligent Design can have experiements conducted and hypotheses made, then it can be allowed into the classroom. It seems to me really, that people are afraid of Evolution because of the lack of understanding. Quite frankly, Evolution isn't a religion and that's almost what it seems like you are making it out to be.


> Why not allow students to hear all theories on the origin of life? It certainly would allow for more research and for critical thought rather than blind following the leader or accepting something out of fear of being different or ridiculed.


 No you see, that's where you are wrong. I spent all of my high school life being ridiculed for supporting and researching the Theory of Evolution. I was just a curious kid. I had grown up going to sunday school and believing in Genesis. In fact, the Old Testament has always caught my attention more than anything else. That's where the blind are following the blind. Believing everything they are told without asking any questions. (Almost exactly what this whole campaign is turning out to be actually) That's what Intelligent Design does. It says that organisms are too complex to have evolved. They had to have been created. That's it. Kapeesh. Where is the questioning in that? That just says why. Where's the HOW?



> There is no way education can be completely secular.Imagine teaching history without mentioning the Crusades or the Holocaust, or Englishor cultural or physical anthropology or any discipline.


 I never said religion can't be in school in the way of subjects that aren't FORCING it upon you. In English for example you learn about Greek gods and such. We know that's not true anymore. History is a subject so much different than science as well. So I don't see how this is a valid argument. Science, like I have already said, it has to be able to have experiments done. Observations present. Science studies the material in the world around us. I suppose you can just put Intelligent Design and Creationism as a whole different course. But beware, if they donât have the basis of evolution, donât expect this child to get very far in chemistry, biology, sociology, and even psychology. At least at the college level. I have only been in a college for 3 weeks, and my basic knowledge of Evolution has helped me greatly believe it or not. Kinda weirdâ¦.perhapsâ¦



> I am not a fan of abstinence ONLY education.I don't believe it works, although like you, I am not presenting any evidence or studies to support that contention. Apparently sex education doesn't work either as plenty of teens are pregnant and have been pregnant after years of sex education in curriculum. Personally, I advocate a combination of abstinence education, sex education and most importantly, parental responsibility in educating their boys and girls.


 Umm..If I am able to remember Bill Clinton did something about only have abstinence education. This put a strict hold on what exactly teachers could talk about in sex education. That's what's holding us back. So really...teachers should be allowed to talk about the diseases and such that you can get. So the sex education would probably work better if stuff could actually be taught. Graphic pictures in health classes always helps. But I suppose maybe some people aren't for that but I know it's turned quite a few people away. I completely agree parents should have a lot of the responsibility. But let's face it, a lot of parents just. don't. care. I've see it. I've gone to school with those people. It's sad really.



> Another quote from your post: If I remember correctly, the âDesignerâ is defined usually as unobservable. I suppose a few have been able to observe this âDesignerâ depending on the religion in question. Therefore Intelligent Design cannot be tested (end quote)
> 
> So that which is unobservable doesn't exist and cannot be tested?
> 
> Let me take your words andmake a substitution: If I remember correctly, thewind is defined usually as unobservable. I suppose a few have been able to observe thiswind depending on the religion in question.


 Haha umm...wind can be observed and tested. I suppose you haven't taken a chemistry course. Guess what's in wind doll? Exactly, elements and molecules. All which have weights, atomic mass, atoms, protons, electrons. Yes, wind is observable. There are also little things called dust particles and water vapor that gets into wind. Those two have little elements and molecules.


> Ludicrous, isn't it?


*Ludicrous indeed it isn't. *

Alright I'm tired. I need to do some more chemistry and go to bed. I didn't want to sound mean or a big bully in anyway. So if I have, please tell me. I apologize to anyone I might have offended again. I just get carried away sometimes...Hopefully most of it makes sense, I started to get a little eye droopy.


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## ~Domino~ (Sep 5, 2008)

Aina: I'm going to read what your dad wrote tomorrow. I wish I could tonight but I'm so sleepy. I don't mind reading arguments that are against mind. It's intriguing actually.


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## Pipp (Sep 5, 2008)

~Domino~ wrote:


> I just turned 18 in August and I've always wanted to vote. So as you can imagine I've been following the race pretty closely.



I sure hope there are more like you out there, Domino. Caring and paying attention is half the battle -- or more. 

Good on ya! :great:

Also, very nice to see this forum 'debating' as opposed to fighting and flaming, something that is too often seen elsewhere on these topics. 

We have great members. Rabbit lovers are an awesome bunch. 

sas :inlove:


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## SOOOSKA (Sep 5, 2008)

I can honestly say that Americans are so Passionate about their elections and their candidates. I was watching McCain's speech tonight and saw so many in the audience that had tears in their eyes.

Good God I guess us Canadians really don't get into Politics and Elections as much as you guys do. Were so darn boring! Good On All Of You!

Susan


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## seniorcats (Sep 5, 2008)

*Pipp wrote: *


> Also, very nice to see this forum 'debating' as opposed to fighting and flaming, something that is too often seen elsewhere on these topics.
> 
> We have great members. Rabbit lovers are an awesome bunch.
> 
> sas :inlove:



WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!! Aw carp! I was planning on getting an even bigger wooden to stirthe pot.


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## seniorcats (Sep 5, 2008)

*Pipp wrote: *


> seniorcats wrote:
> Aw shucks, I thought they meant Dr. Frankenbunny as candidate...




LOL! They did. And she's got my vote for sure.  

For the record, one of Palin's most favourite recreational pastimes is hunting and killing rabbits. She ENJOYS it. 

Thank God/IDesigner/hairy ancestors/amoebas I'm Canadian. :grumpy:







sas :Canada small:[/quote]




Really, you will vote for Mel? Please send her a small campaign donation, if you don't mind. She use around $5,000 :biggrin2:

Maybe Sarah is realated to the 'late' Danielle. They could share recipes.


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## seniorcats (Sep 5, 2008)

*SOOOSKA wrote: *


> I can honestly say that Americans are so Passionate about their elections and their candidates. I was watching McCain's speech tonight and saw so many in the audience that had tears in their eyes.
> 
> Good God I guess us Canadians really don't get into Politics and Elections as much as you guys do. Were so darn boring! Good On All Of You!
> 
> Susan


You need to get some bunnies involved in your elections. You have enough to run the entire country.


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## seniorcats (Sep 5, 2008)

*Aina wrote: *


> Ok, I tried to make this shorter, but it is still long.
> It is nice to see some people who agree with me on some things. The other boards I visit are all just bashing Palin and there is no dialog. Politics gets everyone riled up. I do believe this is the nicest discussion I have seen on politics, *ever.* lol.
> 
> I believe we should allow ID into the scientific dialogue. My dad is a professor and has a PhD minor in statistics, and wrote and excellent article about *why* science should allow ID. It was really long, so I paired it down some. Still really long. Anyways, ask me and I shall direct you to the full article. I know this board is always sweet to each other so sorry if anything in the article comes across as a bit stronger than the people on here are used to.
> ...


Thanks for sharing. If I PM you my e-mail, can you send me the entire article? Would appreciate it.


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## Aina (Sep 5, 2008)

Sure.


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