# Nepal in the news



## Orchid (Nov 24, 2009)

It could be very upsetting to people who ...well who love animals and hate to see them hurt so consider that before you click the link...

and while I condemn no one for their beliefs...it still hurt my heart to read this...



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091124/ap_on_re_as/as_nepal_animal_sacrifice


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## Happi Bun (Nov 24, 2009)

Wow... I'm honestly speechless. I understand that in our world are many different beliefs and religions that I myself may not agree with... but I looked through those pictures and it looks to be extremely inhumane. Many of those animals appear to survive the first attack.


:sad:


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## Brandy456 (Nov 24, 2009)

I'm supposed to be studying Hinduism, but i'm going to tell my homeschooling teacher to drop it..
I don't want to, anymore.. thats just sick


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## mardigraskisses (Nov 24, 2009)

I was fine until I saw the pictures. :tears2: To each his own, I suppose.


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## JadeIcing (Nov 24, 2009)

I had to stop and I can usually handle most anything. :tears2:


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## Orchid (Nov 24, 2009)

Brandy...

While I will not consent to what I read and viewed...I would caution to think do you really not want to learn about it now?
learning is one of the greatest gifts we provide and give.
It can allow for understanding, compassion...and much more.
Too often in the heat of a moment we make choices that do not benefit us.

again...while I do not like what I viewed here...I find learning about such things...why people feel compelled...helps me at least cope with aspects I do not care for and find tolerance where I did not have it before.

Just my small opinion...

and I mean no offense to anyone...


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## JadeIcing (Nov 24, 2009)

*Orchid wrote: *


> Brandy...
> 
> While I will not consent to what I read and viewed...I would caution to think do you really not want to learn about it now?
> learning is one of the greatest gifts we provide and give.
> ...


That was put amazingly.


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## Orchid (Nov 24, 2009)

:thanks::baghead


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## irishlops (Nov 25, 2009)

I do understand there religion has diffrent things,but to me it is morally wrong.
Then again, I do eat meat which is from inhumanly killed animals in slaughter houses... ?????
Are we not simliar except we dont really do it in person?


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## SnowyShiloh (Nov 25, 2009)

*irishlops wrote: *


> I do understand there religion has diffrent things,but to me it is morally wrong.


I totally understand why you don't like it, but something to keep in mind is that every culture around the world does not have the same morals. It's morally right to do these sacrifices there. They aren't being immoral and it isn't fair to judge them by our own morals.

That being said, I didn't even look at the pictures because I know it would upset me too much. Poor animals.


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## BethM (Nov 25, 2009)

*irishlops wrote: *


> Then again, I do eat meat which is from inhumanly killed animals in slaughter houses... ?????
> Are we not simliar except we dont really do it in person?



I have been struggling with that issue for a long time, and is exactly the reason I finally stopped eating meat last month. I am not going to go out and protest against people who eat meat, it is just the right choice for me.

I found it very heartening that the "animal rights activists" in the photos appeared to be local persons, not someone from outside the community coming in, trying to impose a different moral standard. (They may have been outside that particular community, but local to the region in general, I don't know; that was not explained in the article.) I am going to hope that, over time, this practice will become less common. 

I also agree that learning about other cultures gives a deeper understanding of why they do things that we may not find appealing or acceptable.


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## irishlops (Nov 25, 2009)

*SnowyShiloh wrote: *


> *irishlops wrote: *
> 
> 
> > I do understand there religion has diffrent things,but to me it is morally wrong.
> ...


Yeah, I dont hate the people at all, just that I personally dont like the idea. 
Like in some countries (I really dont remember) that _has _to kill the animals with hanging upside down and slitting there throats. I dont like the idea, but understand there religion complies they do thta, like mine comlies i get baptised.
I dont mind looking at the pictures, but I still dont agree. 
You are right i shouldnt judge them by my own morals.


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## irishlops (Nov 25, 2009)

*BethM wrote: *


> *irishlops wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Then again, I do eat meat which is from inhumanly killed animals in slaughter houses... ?????
> ...


I was considering not eatting meat. But im waiting till i finsh growing pshycally.
I also like the idea of not other people being there but locals.
Im doing religions in my religion class doing buddism, hindus and islam. I hope to find out more if there relogion fall under them 3.
Perosnally i think im just as bad because im linked to other poor standards/killings related to animals.


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## kirsterz09 (Nov 25, 2009)

It's really hard to know what to make of it, from the pictures it looks horrific for the animals, but this is a religious thing as well and sacrifices are a common thing in religion, even in the bible sacrifies are mentioned, it's just that nowadays, we have some what moved on from that method of thinking, as it would be considered cruel and unjust and not allowed in most countries such as the Uk and America due to the Animal rights laws. it is I guess seen as more of an ancient tradition then something that would be done today.
It does appear to be a waste of life but it states that they do feast on the cattle but what about the goats, chickens and birds, do they eat them too?
I know that they could argue that our meat has too be killed too and there is no way killing a animal will ever be humane, but we kill to eat, how much of the animals killed here are actually eaten and how much is left for waste?
I guess it shows the difference in life and belief between the more and less developed countries, the reason we frown upon that is because are attitudes have changed, yet take it back a few thousand years, we would be less concerned about it.


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## NorthernAutumn (Nov 25, 2009)

In reflection of this ^^^

I read a recent article that indicated that we waste approximately 30% of all food purchased. 40-60% of all fish harvested from the ocean are immediately dumped... no wonder the ocean will be dead in the next 30 years.
Here it is: http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/11/09/what-a-waste/2/
(Macleans is a national newsmagazine here in Canada)

Truly an eye-opening read...

As for this topic... well... 
Slaughterhouses here generally operate on a strict methodology by which animals are to be killed in a humane fashion (supposed to be quick and painless). I believe that the majority of commercial animals are stunned immediately before being killed.

I don't dispute their right to follow their faith, but I would argue that it does no honour to kill in a haphazard, unprofessional way. From the video, it looks like folks show up with their own sacrificial animal, and bludgeon the creature to death without any concept of how to kill properly and quickly.

To me, it would make more sense that the people finance the sacrificial animal, and well-trained ceremonial officials perform the killing. 

On a nasty side note, it has only been a few thousand years since humans were provided as sacrifices to the Gods in many locations around the world. For that matter, sati has only been outlawed in India since 1987....


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## BethM (Nov 25, 2009)

*NorthernAutumn wrote: *


> As for this topic... well...
> Slaughterhouses here generally operate on a strict methodology by which animals are to be killed in a humane fashion (supposed to be quick and painless). I believe that the majority of commercial animals are stunned immediately before being killed.


For me, it's more of an issue of how the animals are treated prior to being killed. I've read and seen enough things detailing the awful conditions of feedlots, or giant poultry operations. (IE, Michael Pollan's _The Omnivore's Dilemna_, or the documentary "Food, Inc.") I know there are laws requiring animals be killed humanely, but it's "ok" to feed them a diet that will eventually kill them, or confine them to cages they can't even move in, or breed an animal so it cannot behave in a natural way?
Before going veg, I looked into eating only meat that has been raised in a more healthy, humane, natural, sustainable way. At the scale it's currently being done at, it is out of my price range. It is more acceptable to me to eat an animal that has lived a good life. But if I cannot manage that, it is better for me to not eat an animal at all. I do still eat dairy, and I make an effort, and spend more money, to purchase only free-range eggs, and milk that is locally and sustainably produced. No confinement operations. I eat quite a lot of cheese, but it is mostly from smaller, non-industrial companies that don't employ practices I abhor. If/when price becomes an issue, I will simply purchase less, rather than compromise my beliefs.

Sorry, I didn't mean to veer into this topic, I just wanted to make the distinction that it's not always about the animal dying, but it's also about how the animal has lived. Overall quality of life, and environmental impact. 

On the issue of food waste......Since moving into my house, I am very happy that I am now able to compost. The majority of my food waste is compostable. While some things are still being "wasted," they will now eventually be turned into compost that will help to feed my garden, and grow more food. 
I am happy that the city of San Francisco now has the composting law, so residents are required to separate their food waste from their recycling and other trash. 
Food waste is a tricky issue for me. I am appalled that so much food is simply thrown away, it could feed so many people..... But I am also vehemently opposed to people who already get enough to eat, eating something just so it doesn't "go to waste." That is SO unhealthy, and a contribution to the poor health of so many people. 

OK, sorry to go off-topic.


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## BethM (Nov 25, 2009)

*NorthernAutumn wrote: *


> I don't dispute their right to follow their faith, but I would argue that it does no honour to kill in a haphazard, unprofessional way. From the video, it looks like folks show up with their own sacrificial animal, and bludgeon the creature to death without any concept of how to kill properly and quickly.
> 
> To me, it would make more sense that the people finance the sacrificial animal, and well-trained ceremonial officials perform the killing.


I do agree with this. It seems to me that the current way of sacrificing the animals would be very frightening and/or unsettling for the animals involved. I would be much more comforted if the actual killing was done in an alternate way, so the animals were not subjected to the sight/sound/smell of animals being killed around them, or being killed in what seems like it would be such a painful and frightening way.


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## Orchid (Nov 25, 2009)

*BethM wrote: *


> *NorthernAutumn wrote: *
> 
> 
> > As for this topic... well...
> ...



Well first I have to say I am enjoying the conversation being spawned from one topic that has many issues.

I love a good healthy debate that shows ideas and opinions one might not have noticed before, and bring to light something completely unknown. I think perhaps this is the way change begins...

Anywho..

I love my cow and I will not lie or cover that up...Steak, burgers, YUM!...I do not like Pig or Lamb (taste thing only) I do eat chicken but not duck (again about taste) and while I liked venison the one and only time I have had it (after freaking out they killed Bambi)...it has not to be available to me to try again. I eat some fish but only certain ones. Oh and yeah...I L O V E LOBSTER!

I have heard about some of the things that are happening to the ocean..

I have to say over all I am utterly terrified about what our world is coming to. Some people will say I am being overly dramatic, and for them maybe I am...but I feel the reality is we can no longer affordto use and abuse what gifts this earth gave and that is exactly what we still are doing. Each of us in our own ways contribute to this as no one person can be perfect, though we can always try to better ourselves. We are fallible...That can not be changed,..learning from these things and trying to be a better person, well that does make a difference.

Truth is I am so scared what will become of this world. We need our trees to breath, but we cut them down and destroy so much rain forest. The air we have we pollutes, the water, ocean -we take and take, dump stuff into it and do barely anything to fix what we have damaged.

The only real truth is that this has been forever going on. That it still does. So that is why I am scared, because like any machine that can take only so much abuse before it dies out...so will earth.

What little is done now, it not enough to effect a change that would dramatically change things to perhaps save the older amongst us, but what of my daughter and her daughters? I get so upset thinking what will become of her. What world, what legacy have we as a people left to our children...I am terrified by the mass destruction and pain that is our hand me down.

So while I will try to step down and move away from the box (sorry)...

--- I recall why I came to respond. --

A memory from long ago was triggered by the last few posts. 

I used to work in a store called Flower Power in Middletown New York, right next to Sunshine Studios. Susan Panse was my boss and while I will tell you the woman was seriously out of her mind for a great many paranoid reasons...she did have some thoughts of topics that interested me...( her daughter owned Sunshine Studios - Flower Power no longer is open)

I think I will spell it wrong...Aurveda?

It is the thought that when you ingest something, you ingest its life. Its experiences, joys and pain...and yes even that last horrible moment of death they feel and suffer through. When she said this to me I admit to being put off my steak for awhile..for to me it was like saying I was eating death and how could I live a good life doing just that? 

While I can not say I agree or disagree, I will say I find it to be an interesting thought that I hope did not make anyone to ill or upset.


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## NorthernAutumn (Nov 26, 2009)

*BethM wrote: *


> *NorthernAutumn wrote: *
> 
> 
> > As for this topic... well...
> ...


I agree Beth... my comment was strictly focused on the slaughter aspect, but I sure do agree with your remarks.

This documentary has fundamentally changed my perspective on the food I eat: 
We Feed The World (2004)


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## BethM (Nov 26, 2009)

*NorthernAutumn wrote: *


> *BethM wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *NorthernAutumn wrote: *
> ...


Autumn, I apologize if my comments implied I thought *you* were ok with the animal-raising practices I mentioned. I meant it in a more broad sense, and probably didn't articulate it as well as I could have. I do know some people who think if the last moments of life are humane, it makes up for the rest of the animals' life. Either that, or they are just unwilling to accept the facts.

I think many people in "civilized" society are very removed from where the food we eat really comes from. Education is key in people demanding that food animals be raised in a humane way. 

I do love the flavor of steak and burgers. I can say that if I am ever in the position to eat sustainable, humanely raised beef, I will probably at least try it. There are a few meat items that were already in my freezer when I stopped eating meat, but I will probably eventually eat them, as I don't want to just throw them away. 

I have been considering getting chickens, so I know exactly where my eggs come from. I recently found that they are allowed (with a permit) in my city, and I will be looking into the legal requirements, as well as the responsibility involved. I am not up to the task of slaughtering and cleaning, so the birds would become pets after their laying days were over. I'm also interested in beekeeping, but I don't yet know if that is legal here.

I've added that movie to my NetFlix queue. It looks like it is available to watch online, but I do like my husband to see things like that, as well. I am not necessarily trying to sway his view, but I do want him to understand my choices.

Michael Pollan's book _The Omnivore's Dilemma_ is what really changed my eating habits. Not just with meat, but with most things I choose to eat. I am much more attentive to labels, and to thinking about the consequences of things I choose to purchase and consume.


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## Orchid (Nov 26, 2009)

> I have been considering getting chickens, so I know exactly where my eggs come from. I recently found that they are allowed (with a permit) in my city, and I will be looking into the legal requirements, as well as the responsibility involved. I am not up to the task of slaughtering and cleaning, so the birds would become pets after their laying days were over. I'm also interested in beekeeping, but I don't yet know if that is legal here.
> 
> I've added that movie to my NetFlix queue. It looks like it is available to watch online, but I do like my husband to see things like that, as well. I am not necessarily trying to sway his view, but I do want him to understand my choices.





> Do you mean the Secret life of bees? I think that was the flick I saw recently...I cried...but I cry at TV all the time lol..it is worth watching.
> 
> Michael Pollan's book _The Omnivore's Dilemma_ is what really changed my eating habits. Not just with meat, but with most things I choose to eat. I am much more attentive to labels, and to thinking about the consequences of things I choose to purchase and consume.





> Just wanted to say be careful about going beef free and returning to eating it. I have never really done this myself and so I am not informed on the matter, but I had a friend, Adam and he did not eat meat and was served a chili that had beef in it...he became quite ill because his body seemed to reject having the beef in ...just wanted to mention it so you have a small heads up...





> He does eat all sorts of meats now however and is fine...


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## BethM (Nov 26, 2009)

*Orchid wrote:*


> > Do you mean the Secret life of bees? I think that was the flick I saw recently...I cried...but I cry at TV all the time lol..it is worth watching.
> >
> > Michael Pollan's book _The Omnivore's Dilemma_ is what really changed my eating habits. Not just with meat, but with most things I choose to eat. I am much more attentive to labels, and to thinking about the consequences of things I choose to purchase and consume.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I meant the movie Autumn linked to. Again, I'm not articulating very well!
I did love The Secret Life of Bees. Have you read the book? Very very good. I also cried when I watched the movie. 

I had a friend in college who was vegan. He then lived in France for a year, and decided that he was in the land of good cheese, much of it sustainably raised. He had a lot of difficulties eating dairy at first, but eventually got used to it again. 
My freezer currently contains one package each of chicken breasts, beef hot links, bacon, and two small steaks. I will probably use the hot links, in two different batches of red beans and rice, and encourage my husband to have friends over to eat the chicken and steak. I think I have eaten everything from my cabinet that has animal-derived ingredients. 

I have also made another compromise: I have abdominal pain and nausea (not diet-related) frequently, and I have found that peppermint and ginger Altoids help me a lot. But they have gelatin in them. I have decided to continue using the Altoids, rather than take medication for it. It was a difficult decision for me to make, and it confuses my husband that I will not eat yogurt with gelatin in it (I make my own yogurt with local milk and nothing else), but I will use the Altoids. *shrug* 

I do also still eat fish. It's very tricky. Sushi may be my downfall on that one, I love it too much. I try to choose sustainable wild-caught when possible. (IE, Alaskan wild salmon.)


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## Orchid (Nov 26, 2009)

I understand about the peppermint...my female side of the family has a bad history with tummys...my daughter deals with it too sadly...
I keep peppermint every where  I refuse to use things like pepto...but for reasons like the warning thats may turn your tongue black..
I do not want to ingest something that can turn anything black...just very disturbing to me..

I give you credit for the effort and making your own stuff...that is something I have wondered about with humanity in general...
No one would really know how to get on without the grocery stores...again a random thought that scares me...


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## NorthernAutumn (Nov 26, 2009)

*BethM wrote: *


> *Orchid wrote:*
> 
> 
> > > Do you mean the Secret life of bees? I think that was the flick I saw recently...I cried...but I cry at TV all the time lol..it is worth watching.
> ...


[No worries Beth, I was just trying to clarify where I was coming from :hug:]

I've been meaning to read the Omnivore's Dilemma for quite some time now... along with a new book I got about species-ism.

No worries... this movie will make both of you cry... I have never felt so fired and so miserable at once as after watching this documentary.

Bee-keeping is permitted in my city, provided that the hive is not within 200 meters of neighbouring property. As for getting laying hens Beth, be sure they don't slip you a rooster!  Your neighbours would be thankful for the new alarm clock  I believe that there is a large chicken-owning club in Seattle, if I am remembering properly?

Sushi is also my killer.. I have a neat little pocket-guide to sustainably harvest /"good for environment" species...
Sad to say, the most common sushi bar denizens are most certainly not on the list. 
I was really tempted to make some sushi here at home, but I started reading the list, and came to the conclusion that I couldn't ethically make the variety that I wanted to, for anything but a very special occasion.

Here is the pocket guide: http://www.montereybayaquarium.org/cr/cr_seafoodwatch/content/media/MBA_SeafoodWatch_SushiGuide.pdf

Too privileged, I guess. We are all too privileged.


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## BethM (Nov 26, 2009)

Although I am interested in beekeeping, I think it would end up being more work than I am up too. A bit concerned about that with chickens, too. I'll be putting in a garden next spring, I haven't had one in years. I am excited, but don't even know what I want to plant!

I worry about the store thing, too. Especially when there are nation-wide e.coli breakouts and such. It kind of scares me, how reliant we all are (myself included) on the supermarket. 

I do keep peppermint in a pot outside, and drink lots of peppermint tea. I now recall my grandma drinking tons and tons of peppermint tea when I was small. Makes me wonder if she suffered from similar things that I do...... I get acid reflux, though, so I have to be careful with peppermint. (Which is why I alternate with ginger.) 
Wow, I'm a mess, LOL!

I am actually too frightened to make my own sushi, other than a california roll. Since I'm in the middle of the country, there's not much fresh seafood here, except in some restaurants. I'm terrified I'd end up with something that wasn't fresh and safe. I try to use the Monterey Bay Aquarium pocket seafood guide, too.


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## NorthernAutumn (Nov 26, 2009)

^^^ a favourite mess, though


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## BethM (Nov 26, 2009)

:hug:


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## BethM (Nov 26, 2009)

*NorthernAu *


> I've been meaning to read the Omnivore's Dilemma for quite some time now... along with a new book I got about species-ism.
> 
> Bee-keeping is permitted in my city, provided that the hive is not within 200 meters of neighbouring property. As for getting laying hens Beth, be sure they don't slip you a rooster!  Your neighbours would be thankful for the new alarm clock  I believe that there is a large chicken-owning club in Seattle, if I am remembering properly?


I've looked into a company that makes a product called the Eglu. A British company has designed a "modern" sort of chicken house, and can be delivered complete with chickens. They send juvenile hens only, and you can order as few as two. I think I might not be far enough from my neighbors, though, I have only just started looking into this.

The Eglu is super-cute. They also make beehives, and an outdoor rabbit house. (The rabbit house wouldn't work in my climate, but it's cute, anyway.) Quite expensive, but fun to look at.

I'd be interested in the book on species-ism, if you could post the title?


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## Orchid (Nov 26, 2009)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20091125/wl_mideast_afp/mideastenvironmentwaterjordan


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## NorthernAutumn (Nov 26, 2009)

Here it is, Beth!

It's called Animal Liberation, by Peter Singer...
Animal Liberation (Peter Singer)

While some people term it the bible of animal rights, it doesn't appear to subscribe to the extreme rhetoric of PETA. Rather, it looks at the quality of a whole animal life, and the relationship between human and animal from a historical, scientific and religious context. It's a utilitarian philosophy. Really interesting read!


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## BethM (Nov 26, 2009)

*NorthernAutumn wrote: *


> Here it is, Beth!
> 
> It's called Animal Liberation, by Peter Singer...
> Animal Liberation (Peter Singer)
> ...


Thanks, I just put a hold on it with my library!


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