# Do breeders treat for coccidia themselves?



## Maureen Las (Jul 15, 2007)

OK..this story is so convoluted that I am not going to tell the whole thing but shorten it. 

My new bunny Gabriel ,who was half starved and dehydrated, when I first got him has some abnormal lab values specifically a very high eosinophil count. 
This is suggestive of a parasite (like cocciddia) and this bunny also has large misshapen poops but not diarrhea. The fecal test showed negative for coccidia but I have since learned that the fecals are not always accurate because of the life -scycle of the parasite.
The vet doesn't know what this is caused from but will redraw the blood in 2 weeks although I don' think that he plans to do another fecal.

I am keeping gabriel away from my other rabbits because I am afraid of contagion.
I was thinking this section of RO would be a good place to go with this dilemna because I assume that breeders have to treat the whole herd if one bunny gets sick. 
I think the vets use Albon to treat a rabbit but I wonder what breeders use and , if my concerns linger on and the vet doesn't know I would be willing to treat the rabbit myself is I knew the treatment to be safe.,
The idea would be to assume that he may have it and treat it.


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## TinysMom (Jul 15, 2007)

I do know breeders who treat this - but I'm going to ask Randy, our resident health guru to peek in on this thread since he is much more knowledgable about stuff like this than I am.

I know what some folks swear by (I forget the name - I want to say sulfamed or something) and I know you can get stuff that is non prescription for prevention type treatment..

But I'm going to have Randy weigh in on this..

Peg


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## Maureen Las (Jul 15, 2007)

..Albon is the trade name but the generic name is sulfadatone or something similar to that.
A few people have told me that this doesn't always show up in fecals and it really bothers me that if he may have it that I am letting this run on.
I REALLY CAN"T STAND IT that I don't trust the vets. This is the 2nd vet here that I have taken him too as the first one stated that the abnormalities in his lab results were caused by dehydration. it is only by reading and asking questions that I find out on my own that everyone seems to have a different opinion.

Gabriel is gaining wt and actually looks good except he has a slightly elevated lympocyte count, high normal WBC, no basophils (I ,ve been told thats abnormal), high eosinophols, high globulin and high phosphorus.

The vet is only concerned about the eosinophils.

gabriel has these great big misshapen moist poops (not diarrhea)which apparently could be a symptomof coccidia. ???


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## Maureen Las (Jul 15, 2007)

Thanks Peg and yes I'm sure Randy may know as he is certainly very knowledgeable...but he probably isn't up at 2AM talking about rabbit poop


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## TinysMom (Jul 15, 2007)

A friend of mine had cocci go through her rabbitry last fall - she spent more on medications (let alone vet bills) than on food for quite a while.

She told me to insist on something called a "smear" - not just a fecal float test (or something like that) - but she said, "insist on a smear".

I don't know exactly what that is - but I guess a vet tech or a vet would know as she insisted any vet tech could probably do the smear (I may have that part wrong - but she insisted any vet could get it done or something).

She used Albon but there was another drug she used when the Albon didn't work as well as they wanted. When I tlalked to her recently she stated that she wouldn't use Albon again compared to this other drug - that it was much more effective.

HOWEVER....she is NOT a vet....just speaking from her own experience. 

I really admired her though - every rabbit that left her place was vet-checked and tested for cocci until she knew for sure it was gone from her herd. She lost money that way - but she knew her rabbits were healthy and no one else was being exposed to it.

Peg


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## Maureen Las (Jul 15, 2007)

I wonder if she meant a fecal smear or a blood smear.? Could you find out?

The vet I am seeing now is atleast open to knowledge that I bring in. 
When you can, Peg, could you find out the name of the drug that is bettter than Albon.? There is no hurry as we are not going back for about 2 weeks. 


She sounds like a great rabbit owner and breeder that she cares about her rabbits.

I think that their is a lot of knowledge out there from breeders that is valuable to everyone because so many vets really don't know rabbits that well.


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## TinysMom (Jul 15, 2007)

sorry - I know she meant fecal smear...

I know what she likes isn't Albon and is sulfa something (I think) - I'll try to remember to ask her next week...

Peg


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## Maureen Las (Jul 15, 2007)

Thanks a lot no one talked about a fecal smear before ..I just keep learning.


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## chinbunny1 (Jul 15, 2007)

I treat for coccidia. I don't bother with Albon. It doesn't work. The best two drugs to use are amprol, and corrid. Corrid is a little harder to get because the company that makes it went bankrupt. But i think you can get amprol over the net. 1 teaspoon of the drug mixed to a gallon of water. You give it to the rabbits so many days on, and so many off. It will tell you how many days on the bottle. You also water it down a bit and administer it to a bunny by surringe if its not eating.


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## ra7751 (Jul 15, 2007)

My my my...this is interesting. Is there any way you can get a copy of the lab work and either post it or send me a copy? Just in your very brief comments, there appears to be some contradicitng information which it sounds like your vet is on to. As far as treating parasites....unless I am really just want to pay for a fecal...that is not always accurate....I just treat for parasites. Treatment is cheaper than the diagnosis. Truth be known....we all have worms and stuff like this in us too....disgusting isn't it? Albon is by far the most effective treatment for coccidia that is *safe*for use in rabbits....in the long term view of things. There are many drugs that do treat coccidia but not necessarily what the rabbit has or that is safe for those fragile little organs like the liver and kidneys. Coccicia is a protozoan infection....just like E Cuniculi. *If Albon is used correctly....dosing and length of treatment....it is very* *safe and effective*. There is also a drug I hope to try with EC that should also be effective against coccidia and that is Marquis. It is very expensive....used in equine.

Now, I would also deworm this rabbit. Coccidia has a very specific odor that you learn as you deal with it (like most bacteria). I have a rabbit that came in very sick. Over time, she developed a very smelly and unusual poop. She had hookworms (which I had never seen in a rabbit). She got three rounds of Panacur and she has been great ever since.

I would also make sure you stay with a very basic bunny diet and not add too much to the gut for a while. We see many rabbits that come in starved and dehydrated take quite a while to get their gut's in order. If you look on our web site and see Danny.....he came in to rescue in horrible condition. He had all sorts of problems and we didn't think he would survive...but he did. His gut was a mess due to his starvation and dehydration. It took over two years to get his gut right. Even the smallest piece of a treat....or a green....would throw his gut into chaos. We have since seen that in several starvation cases. 

If this were my rabbit...and keep in mind that I am not a vet....I would use the Albon for coccidia and deworm in standard protocol with Panacur. I would stick to a very basic bunny diet of limited pellets, unlimited hay and fresh water. I think the vet doing another blood panel is an excellent idea as a couple of things you mentioned were a little out of whack. It seems your vet is trying to get to the root cause of the concern and it seems there is something going on there.

We have started treating just about every rabbit that comes in for this. The costs are reasonable for the benefit...and this is one of those rare cases that if you do it strictly by the book, it might not be perfect. We treat every rabbit that has been outside for both coccidia and worms. But any more info you can provide...especially specific blood values....will help us all. 

Randy


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## pamnock (Jul 15, 2007)

Intestinal Coccidia normally inhabit the GI system. They often over populate when a rabbit's immune system is stressed, so the diagnosis of excessive coccidia is not unusual when a rabbit is ill. Coccidiosis is often a secondary symptom, rather than the original cause of illness, so it is important to address the other health problems as well as treating the coccidia overgrowth.

I'd go for a second fecal float to determine if there actually is a high cocci count. I don't recommend treating for a problem that doesn't exist.

Pam


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## TinysMom (Jul 15, 2007)

Randy & Pam,

Thanks so much for checking in on this thread and for answering. You both have so much knowledge and experience....it is great to have you to answer all of these questions.

One quick question - neither of you addressed the idea of a fecal smear....would you recommend that at all? 

Thanks so much!

Peg


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## pamnock (Jul 17, 2007)

*TinysMom wrote: *


> Randy & Pam,
> 
> 
> One quick question - neither of you addressed the idea of a fecal smear....would you recommend that at all?
> ...



Most certainly - I recommended a fecal float in my post.

Pam


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## Maureen Las (Jul 17, 2007)

This is what I am going to do ...wait until the results of the lab results drawn in 2 weeks and see if any of the values have change. As far as I know the fecal float has been done twice by a lab but I thought a fecal smear was a different thing

I read on how to do it in a bird and you don't try to separate the parasite and eggs by spinning it (I forgot the name of the equipment.) but just take the fecal matter, mix it with isotonic saline , smear it around on a slide and look at it under a microscope.I have read that coccidia eggs often don't float ot get spun out.

I also read that they are not that easy to identify.

The rabbit is doing very well right now so I am just going to wait for the next lab test as I am in this beyond my knowledge. :?


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## pamnock (Jul 17, 2007)

A heavily infested rabbit should show up cocci just as well in a float, however, smears can also be done.

Low counts are considered normal and generally don't require treatment.

Pam


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## Maureen Las (Jul 17, 2007)

maybe he isn't heavily infected with coccidia...the vets just don't know why his eosiniphil count was so high..its possible that it will go down (I hope) and that alot of his results were the effects of starvation and dehydration...or maybe he has another parasite that is undetected.

I am concerned about introducing him to my other rabbits as I am very concerned that they could be infected from him with something. I hate it that I have to keep him alone.
Anyway I should try to be patient.


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## pamnock (Jul 17, 2007)

Unfortunately, there could be many causes of a high eosiniphil count. There could be a undetected underlying health problem. Hopefully, it was just due to the previous stress he's been through and will normalize soon.

Pam


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## polly (Jul 17, 2007)

I was speaking to a breeder over here that i am going to see at the weekend she was saying that she uses "acf pellets" i think thats what she said and they have something added in to deworm them? hadn't heard of it but i can find out more at the weekend.


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