# RIP little HOLLY rabbit losing weight - fast!



## countrybunnyholly (Oct 18, 2007)

Hi - we are looking for any advice we can get to help our bunny. We raise N. Dwarf show rabbits, and Holly is our grand champion at only 10 months old. In the last 3 weeks, she went off her feed and started losing weight dramatically. She has now lost about 35% of her body weight (normally 2.2 lbs), despite eating fresh foods, timothy hay, and kitten replacement formula, plus fresh vegetables. We have been to two vets, and treated her for both hairball and worms. Her teeth check out fine. Still she loses weight daily. Her poop is very small, like a very young rabbit and she will not eat her regular rabbit food. The vets have both proposed very extensive and expensive blood work and X-rays, and we may have no choice but to pursue, but I thought I'd check around out there to see if anyone has experienced this before and might have some direction for us to go. One other note, we have observed her in a very odd pose, sitting with her head tilted slightly back as if she is looking up at something. Strange for a N. Dwarf, which usually poses with the chin tucked into the chest. Any help is appreciated!!


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## polly (Oct 18, 2007)

Hey it will help us if you can post where you are in the world as treatments can vary from place to place.

What are you feeding her at the mo and what % of fibre and stuff is in it?

Is she drinking?

What hay do you give her (alfa alfa or timothy?

Can you get some nutrical or some critical care ? they are great supplements to help when they are not eating.

Have you tried syringe feeding baby food or mushed up pellets?

Can you give her some veg as they will tend to eat that first over pellets when they aren't feeling well.

Has something stressed her?

If it was me i would certainly be syringe feeding pellet mush to keep her system going with critical care mixed in.

and syringe water too to help keep her hydrated maybe ask your vet about showing you how to inject sub Q fluids

The head thing could be cause she is weak from not eating enough

Hopefully Randy will come on and give you some advice


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## Flashy (Oct 18, 2007)

Welcome to the forum, like polly dsaid, if you could put your location, at the very least the country, in your profile, you will get helpo more specified to you.

Whta is her water itnake like? has she been drinking a lot? going to the toilet a lot? has she had any problems with her back legs at all?

the reason i ask is because e. cuniculi is something that comes ot mind. i know that bunnies can really struggle to keep weight on with that, and EC can also be related to head tilt. i dont know if your bun has head tilt, but holding her head in a different way may be the start or an inidication?

polly hgas asked good questions, and givern i know nothing, i have nothing else to add.


ETA- could the head thing be breathing rleated? the buns ive seen in bresathing diatress, even if they sound ok, have had their heads back trying to get more oxygen in.


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## countrybunnyholly (Oct 18, 2007)

Hi Polly - we are in New Jersey, US. We have tried a variety of foods, including fresh fruits and vegetables, baby food, pumpkin timothy hay, oats, and wet pellets. We were just trying to get her to eat anything. What she has eaten most is oats, parsley, carrots and timothy, plus the kitten replacement milk, which she takes from a syringe (no force feeding needed). Her normal feed is Big Red rabbit food, 16% protein, 2% fat, 15% - 18% fiber, and 1% calcium, plus phosphorous and salt.

Never thought about the head thing being a sign of weakness, that's a good point.


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## countrybunnyholly (Oct 18, 2007)

[Whta is her water itnake like? has she been drinking a lot? going to the toilet a lot? has she had any problems with her back legs at all?}

Water intake seems less than normal, and not sure what's coming out. Back legs seem fine.

[the reason i ask is because e. cuniculi is something that comes ot mind. i know that bunnies can really struggle to keep weight on with that, and EC can also be related to head tilt. i dont know if your bun has head tilt, but holding her head in a different way may be the start or an inidication?]

Are you talking about wry neck? We've seen that before and it has been much more dramatic than this - scissor ears, rolling and twisting. This is much more subtle, and when she notices you, she brings her head back to normal position.


[ETA- could the head thing be breathing rleated? the buns ive seen in bresathing diatress, even if they sound ok, have had their heads back trying to get more oxygen in.]

On examination there was no sign of upper respiratory problems.


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## Bo B Bunny (Oct 18, 2007)

Wasn't it Randy who said Kitten replacement formula can actually be damaging to bunnies? Can anyone clarify this?


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## polly (Oct 18, 2007)

I would DEF. get your vet to show you how to do the subQ fluids to keep her nice and hydrated.

Its nutrical you get over there then and the people on here seem to swear by it.

Can you get Alfa Alfa cause thats better for younger rabbits than Timothy. i also get the dried grass it seems to work well also maybe a bit of peppermint you can get dried leaves or maybe a very dilute version with a peppermint tea bag in the water as its very good for digestion problems i usually find Coriander is a good one to give to help them eat to and oregano which is good for muccoid eneropathy and coccidosis.

definately mush the pellets up and get them into her, if you are really worried can you maybe get a scan to check for blockages. 

DOes her tummy feel tight? warmth is good and tummy rubs.

Oh and also pineapple cause if there is a blockage and its hair it can help to disolve it.

Not so sure of your food as i don't really know the american brands but the fibre level sounds good



I am sorry its not under better circumstancs to meet i feel for you as i breed nethies tooI had one of my bucks do this and he didn't eat for 3 weeks except for nibbling, the oregano worked brill for me but we did pull him round by syringe feeding mush it took a while (almost 2 months to get him eating really well but we got there in the end ) Don't give up


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## Flashy (Oct 18, 2007)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> Wasn't it Randy who said Kitten replacement formula can actually be damaging to bunnies? Can anyone clarify this?



I'm searchingthe orum for this because i have a feeling you're righrt, but i can't find where he wrote it (if he did). 

i hope your little bun keeps fighting countrybunnyholly.


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## Flashy (Oct 18, 2007)

Hmm, ive been searching thourgh Randy's posts and maybe th4ese might help, the general idea seems to be to get a fecal test done. can't find anything useful on the replacement forumla though

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=26291&forum_id=16&highlight=randy



(sorry for my typing, i have an injured arm)


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## jordiwes (Oct 18, 2007)

I have heard that dramatic weight loss can be a sign of kidney issues. I hope your little one gets better soon!


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## Flashy (Oct 18, 2007)

*jordiwes wrote: *


> I have heard that dramatic weight loss can be a sign of kidney issues. I hope your little one gets better soon!


 i'm glad it wqasn'tr just me that thought that. that was why i asked about the water intake because that was my first thought, that then led me to EC.


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## polly (Oct 18, 2007)

I know with EC if the rabbit gets dehydrated it can bring it on as the parasites get through the membrane walls and travel up to the brain (at least thats what i heard)

Could be sludgy kidneys as well but i know when it was mine it was stress a trip to the vet was enough to stop him eating but he is a total worry wart!!


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## naturestee (Oct 18, 2007)

Welcome to the forum!

Can your vet do just the kidney and liver blood tests? Mine does this frequently as routine tests and it only costs about $20. This might be a better option than an expensive full blood panel especially as kidney and liver problems are more common than other issues that would be checked in a full blood panel.

Also, how did the vet check the teeth? It's hard to get a really good look at the molars without putting them under anesthesia. I know the first time Pipp's Nethie had molar spurs the vet kept saying that the teeth were fine until she insisted he put the bun under anesthesia and do a more thorough search. Sure enough, there were tiny spurs on the very last molars in the back and the bun recovered after they were filed down. This is only one of many cases where I have heard of molar spurs being missed until they got a full examination under anesthesia.

Will she eat wet slurried pellets through the syringe? That would be much better for her than the milk replacer. Adult rabbits usually don't digest milk very well, they loose the ability after they are weaned.

:clover:


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## countrybunnyholly (Oct 18, 2007)

Wow! I stepped away for dinner and bedtime routines and I missed a lot! Thank you all for your concern and advice. I think we will stop the formula. She is taking a wet pellet mixture mixed with baby food veggies, as well as nibbling on some carrots and radishes. She loves parsley, and I ran out to get some tonight, but the store was out of it. Picked up some kale -we'll see if she likes it. 

I will take all of this info and present it to my vet again. Ourlocal vet thought that her kidneys felt "abnormal" and "protruding" but I'm not sure of the implications. I then took her to the Vet hospital at the Un. of Pa in Philly and they said she palpated normally. Maybe I will see if he can do just the kidney blood work. But would kidney problems cause the small stools? I was thinking some type of GI problem. Maybe GI stasis?

About a month before she started having problems we began supplementing her regular pellets with a small amount (teaspoon) of Calf Manna. It is a higher protein, milk-based feed, supposed to be good for rabbits' flesh condition. Lots of breeders we know us it, but maybe Holly just has a problem with it. We have both her parents and two litter-mates who have had no trouble, though. What a mystery! And as much as I hate to reduce a pet's life to dollars and cents, I just can't spend the $800 they wanted at U of P. She's really a sweet girl, one of our nicest bunnies and our absolute best on the show table. If you think of anything else, we'll be glad to hear it. 

Thanks again for your support.


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## countrybunnyholly (Oct 18, 2007)

By the way, that's Holly in our picture, 3rd one from the left. We had two chestnuts and two black otters in the litter, and they were so cute - just like two sets of salt and pepper shakers!


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## naturestee (Oct 18, 2007)

$800! I'd hesitate for that too. Xrays at my vet are about $100, I'm not sure what a full blood panel costs. I've found the bigger the city, the more the vet charges. If your local vet is good with rabbits I'd stick with him for now. Maybe he can consult with the vets at the college hospital via phone and fax if he wants another opinion on the results of xrays and lab tests.

Kidney problems can indeed cause GI problems due to discomfort and if she isn't hydrated enough. Are you syringing any fluids into her? Or you could try flavoring her water a little to encourage her to drink more. Would it be possible to put a pan beneath her cage to catch the urine? Then you'll know if she's urinating and it looks unusual.


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## Pipp (Oct 18, 2007)

I don't have time to read this whole thread, sorry if I'm repeating anything. 

The small stools (and stasis) are symptoms of whatever else is going on, so I'd suggest treating them (lots of hydration and fibre --canned pumpkin, pedialyte are great) but look elsewhere for her problem. 

My guess would be kidneys or the lungs. How did the lower respiratory sound? 

Hyrdration will be crucial, although I'd think in some casesyou also don't want to over tax them if they're compromised, so a bit of caution there.

Watch her urinary functions and breathing closely.

Must ask... Is she doing anything like picking up food and dropping it? Drooling at all? Does she seem hungry but then doesn't eat? Molar spurs are hard to detect visually. 



sas ray:


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## Ivory (Oct 18, 2007)

I'm going to give my honest opinion: it sounds like renal failure. I wouldn't assume encephalitozoonosis automatically. It just sounds like renal failure. The weight loss, the intake, the fact that her kidneys felt abnormal- all point to renal failure. Of couse the case isn't in front of me so I don't know, but that's just what it sounds like.

Subcutaneous fluids, so long as they're not overdone, will help her feel more comfortable. Don't overdo them, though, because it will stress the kidneys more.

I hope that she pulls through.

It definitely sounds like renal dysfunction, though. I hope that helps.


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## Pipp (Oct 18, 2007)

Ivory, would antibiotics do anything?

And just as a caution, keep an eye out for mycotoxins in the feed. That can cause kidney issues I do believe. 



sas ray:


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## Ivory (Oct 19, 2007)

It depends on what would be causing the problems...if it's bacterial or otherwise some kind of microorganism, then possibly, but the situation would have to be completely assessed. If it's septecemia causing it, it depends on how far along she is, if anything can be done....

All the best..


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## JimD (Oct 19, 2007)

*countrybunnyholly wrote: *


> We have been to two vets, and treated her for both hairball and worms.


When was she treated for worms.....and what did they use?


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## countrybunnyholly (Oct 20, 2007)

Hi Jim,

She was given three doses of Panacur about a week ago. We are seeing yet a third vet today at noon. She continues to lose weight, but I do see her eating (hay and kale mostly) We've given her a dish of water in addition to the water bottle, and we also offer water by syringe, which she takes. I'll update when we get back. Thanks again to all of you who've written. Your support is so kind.


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## Bo B Bunny (Oct 20, 2007)

Something about KALE is a problem for rabbits if you use it in high amounts. I can't find the information I need but maybe someone else can help.

Might the KALE be an issue? do you feed it to her all the time?


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## slavetoabunny (Oct 20, 2007)

Kale can cause gas with bunnies.

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> Something about KALE is a problem for rabbits if you use it in high amounts. I can't find the information I need but maybe someone else can help.
> 
> Might the KALE be an issue? do you feed it to her all the time?


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## Bo B Bunny (Oct 20, 2007)

*slavetoabunny wrote: *


> Kale can cause gas with bunnies.
> 
> *Bo B Bunny wrote: *
> 
> ...




I've found a few things but I cannot find the symptoms - KALE contains a high amount of oxalates. Oxalate toxicity can cause kidney problems but I think more than that....


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## naturestee (Oct 20, 2007)

Oxalates are actually a non-issue, per email with Susan Smith, renowned rabbit vet and rabbit nutrition expert. Check the second post:
http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=13618&forum_id=17

FYI, calcium in fresh veggies is also a non-issue because of the water supplied with the veggies. The dietary amounts are measured in dry weights of food and do not take the water into account. So that's generally not an issue either, for future reference.

Good luck with the third vet!


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## Bo B Bunny (Oct 20, 2007)

cool. I have always limited kale for the bunnies.

I do notice that when they have the higher calcium veggies, I see darker urine.


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## naturestee (Oct 20, 2007)

Could be because of the vitamins. Excreted calcium (which is healthy and normal) looks like whitish sand. I feed lots of kale, collards, and cabbage and it doesn't seem to change the urine in my buns.


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## Bo B Bunny (Oct 20, 2007)

I don't know. They get the reddish urin when they have a lot of veggies too. We also have well water so that could be something.....


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## countrybunnyholly (Oct 20, 2007)

OK - vet #3 did a fecal exam - negative. Then he anesthetized her to get a better look at the teeth. He found that the molars were rubbing against the tongue and filed them back. He still couldn't say for sure if that was causing all her problems. She is now on a mixture of Critical Care and Ensure, plus timothy hay. However, she is taking a long time to recover from the anesthesia, maybe because of her weakened condition? It has been 9 hours now and she still can't sit up or move her back legs. Is that typical? It's very scary to see her like this. Still, we are getting as much into her as possible, especially water. I will have to take her back next week, but I have to admit, she looks worse than ever tonight. If we lose her, my daughter will be so upset....please pray for Holly.ray:


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## Ivory (Oct 20, 2007)

Oh I'm so sorry. Nine hours and not being able to sit up is scary. That's not typical- rabbits will be groggy for nine hours after, but the fact that she can't lift her head up yet can indicate something else. Granted she's sick, but still. Talk to the vet about it, give them a call. I'd be worried. Yes, nine hours later they may still be groggy, but not lifting the head is something that should at least be addressed.

I'm so sorry you're having all these problems with Holly. I hope she gets better.


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## countrybunnyholly (Oct 20, 2007)

Thanks, Ivory. I am really very afraid for her tonight. I won't call the vet though - it's 10:30 here. I wish I had asked them how long it would take to shake off the anesthesia. They seemed to think she was fine when we left. It's so sad for animals, isn't it? Because they can't tell you anything.


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## Bo B Bunny (Oct 21, 2007)

I'd call the vet if it were 2:30 a.m. at this point. Seriously that's way too long.


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## pla725 (Oct 21, 2007)

I'm not sure where you are located in NJ but I would get her to the emergency vet if she takes a turn for the worst. Iheard the ER in Langhorne is good and so is the one at Penn. Red Bank is the other option.


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## swanlake (Oct 21, 2007)

i am so sorry for your baby!

first off, how is her urine? is she peeing a lot but only a little ammount?

i am really thinking shehas kidney problems. 

this happened to my fuz. I did everything i could for her. they thought her weight loss might have been from her teeth hurting her too. With kidney problems, no matter how much they eat they sitll lose weight. fuz's poos were small too.

i would definaly do some sort of blood test as this is the only way i at least know how they can check it

not to be the bearer of bad news but if it is kidney problems there is not much you can do for her. i am sorry she does have kidney problems. this happended to fuz about 3 weeks ago. she was only 2 years. i had her for only one month. 



i hope this is not the case, and is something else but i hope i have helped.

hope your baby gets better:brownbunny


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## countrybunnyholly (Oct 22, 2007)

Dear Friends,

I'm sorry to report that we made the decision today to put Holly down. I had called the vet over the weekend, and he did not feel that the paralysis had anything to do with the anesthesia but just was the progression of something yet unidentified. We took her back to the office this morning,just able to keep her head up, and dehydrated despite us feeding her critical care and water several times a day. She was so pitiful, and since the doctor had no specific guesses as to where to go next, he was still proposing a large battery of tests that may or may not lead to a cure. I just couldn't put her through anymore, and her beautiful eyes just seemed to say "let me go." It was *so* hard! But I want to thank you all so much for your concern and support. It made all the difference to me.

Even as we learn to let go of Holly, we are expecting a new litter of babies next week. They will be her brothers and sisters, and we hope to name one (or more) after her. My daughter is very creative with names, so we'll see what she comes up with. 

I'll leave you with my gratitude and the inscription my daughter left at Holly's backyard grave today: Holly Berry - Champion, Pet, Friend


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## Ivory (Oct 22, 2007)

I'm so sorry about Holly- I had a rabbit named Holly, who I called Holly Berry, who passed on about a year ago. 

RIP little Holly, you were a good rabbit and a good broad doe and a champion. Her inscription is fitting.

We'd love to hear about the new bunnies and litters. Perhaps you could make a blog and update it occasionally. But don't do anything you don't want to, of course.


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## Bo B Bunny (Oct 22, 2007)

Oh no  I'm so very sorry about this. Something just didn't seem right about the whole situation.

Bless her little heart  RIP baby girl.


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## polly (Oct 23, 2007)

Poor Holly, you did the right thing its so difficult i hoep you will be able to gain other things from this forum and keep visiting.

:angel:rip Holly


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## MsBinky (Oct 23, 2007)

I'm so sorry to hear :tears2:

RIP and binky free Holly :rainbow:


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## AngelnSnuffy (Oct 23, 2007)

I'm very sorry.

Binky free little Holly:rainbow:


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## countrybunnyholly (Oct 23, 2007)

Ivory, Bo B, Polly, and Ms Binky - Thank you all so much. I'll check back in next week and let you all know about the babies. It's so hard to tell if they are pregnant, but if she is, we expect the litter on the 28th. This weekend we'll be anxiously watching for signs of nest making! They can be sneaky, though, and throw one together at the last minute so you have no warning. It is bittersweet, but that's the circle of life, isn't it?

:angelandbunny:


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## JimD (Oct 23, 2007)

I'm so sorry 

...binky free little one.

ray::rainbow:


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## countrybunnyholly (Oct 23, 2007)

I just have to ask - binky free??


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## Ivory (Oct 23, 2007)

A binky is when they do those little weird twitching/jumping movements, or just go crazy with jumping and bouncing off of things. Or when they do that weird criss-cross thing. You know, those expressions of bunny joy. It's a term of affection. 

So I guess it means, be happy forever, little one.

(The word "binky" used to weird me out, I have no idea who came up with it, frankly. Maybe they were a little disturbed.)


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## Thumpers_Mom (Oct 23, 2007)

ink iris:I'm sorry for your loss.

RIP Holly.:rainbow::tears2:


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## countrybunnyholly (Oct 23, 2007)

Oh yeah! We love that little sideways kick-jump thing they do! The babies are especially cute when they start that. Sometimes they totally lose their balance and just fall over. So cute! I guess we did need a name for that... thanks for explaining.

Thumpers mom, is Thumper a black otter Netherland? We have several of those. It's a little hard to tell from the picture though, could be a silver martin? Anyway cute pose in mid-bath! Thanks everyone for your condolences - you're all so sweet.


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## naturestee (Oct 23, 2007)

I'm so sorry about Holly. Poor girl was so young.

Best of luck with the upcoming litter! Circle of life indeed, and baby buns are so good at bringing joy.


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## ~Bracon~ (Oct 23, 2007)

Im so sorry for your loss, binky free little holly:rip:


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## Thumpers_Mom (Oct 24, 2007)

Yes, Thumpy is a black otter Netherland. This is one of my all time favorite pics of him.

I hope you are doing better. If you ever need to talk...feel free to email me.:hug:


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## countrybunnyholly (Oct 24, 2007)

Thanks, Thumpers Mom, we are doing better. It was just such a long, stressful road. Holly started to get sick 3 weeks ago. But now we are turning our thoughts to, hopefully, a nest full of babies on Monday, and that is always a thrill.

We have two otter bucks, one is Keekaboo, Holly's littermate, and very handsome. Then we have Keekaboo's baby Jaya, the spitting image of his daddy. I just think the otters are so pretty. Our first netherland was an otter doe, and we still have her too, Coconut.We laugh at her though, because she's such a big brood doe, with a ginormous dewlap! (She's had 3 litters, it happens to all of us - lol!)


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## countrybunnyholly (Oct 29, 2007)

Hello everyone! I wasn't sure where to put this so you could find it if you were interested, but here it is: 

This morning we have brand new kits! Holly's parents, Kisses and Bean, are the proud (or in Bean's case, oblivious!) parents of 4 new baby bunnies!!  They seem to be all black otters, but it's a little hard to tell - could be chestnuts. Either way, we are thrilled! I will have trouble telling them apart, but my daughter will know them from day one! It is always so much fun watching them grow - we are blessed with new joy!

"I will turn their mourning into joy, I will comfort them, and give them gladness for sorrow." Jer 31:13

:bunny18


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## Thumpers_Mom (Oct 29, 2007)

That is great! When you get a chance, can you post pics? That is quite a number of bunnies you have there. I love baby bunnies!!!

Glad to hear that you are doing better.


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## countrybunnyholly (Oct 29, 2007)

We'll probably get some pics in the next few days. The dark babies are hard to photograph, though. When they are all the same, it's hard to see them. 

We love the babies too! All in all we have 16 rabbits now!! If these are really otters, then we have 7 black otters and one older blue otter.


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## MsBinky (Oct 29, 2007)

Awww congrats!!! :biggrin2:I can't wait to see the pics hihi


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## countrybunnyholly (Nov 1, 2007)

OK - I have pics. Only problem is I don't know how to get them in here! 

I'm a little technology challenged, so please be patient with me. Fortunately I do have a teenager in the house, so there's hope - LOL! If someone can give me a few pointers, I'll get them up asap. Thanks! They are *really*cute babies!!


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## Ivory (Nov 1, 2007)

Weeeelll, one thing you could do, is start a new thread in the Rabbitry and Show Room. It's the same way you started this thread.

The pictures, do you have a digital camera?


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## countrybunnyholly (Nov 1, 2007)

Yeah, the pictures are downloaded on the computer.


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## Bo B Bunny (Nov 1, 2007)

I'm really excited to see them! I love black otters!


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## Ivory (Nov 1, 2007)

All right, well what you can do is, go to a picture hoster like Photobucket.com or Imageshack.

With Photobucket you'll have to register, but I prefer it. After that, you press "upload photo" and pick the photos you want to upload out of whichever file they're saved in.

You wait a little while for them to upload, then you copy the "direct image" link that they will give you with the uploaded picture.

When you make your post, paste the link into the textbox. Then, type in front of it, and [/img/ in back of it. Don't put a space in between. Then press "send" to post your message, and the pictures will show up in the post!

It's fairly simple, actually.


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## countrybunnyholly (Nov 1, 2007)

OK - here goes:

















This last one is the little mama, or as she prefers to be called, the Queen Mum. She's gone right past princess to queen, and she likes it that way. But she's a good mommy and she makes very pretty babies (once they get fur!)


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## countrybunnyholly (Nov 1, 2007)

OK, that didn't exactly work. I'll try again. Sorry......


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## Ivory (Nov 1, 2007)

LOL You were close! It's just [/img] at the end, not [/img/ . Just put a bracket in place of the last slash, and you'll have gotten it!


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## countrybunnyholly (Nov 1, 2007)

Hey! I did it! The Queen and her babies. So, now that they have a little more color, we can see there are two black otters and two chestnuts. They've all been thoroughly kissed and loved. Mom doesn't care, as long as you leave her alone, and by the way, could you bring more food?

I am so laughing at myself! I just noticed that the pix showed up in my other post now, and they are huge! I am sorry for being technically incompetent. My daughter will be home soon to help me.

But are they not adorable?


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## Bo B Bunny (Nov 2, 2007)

They are ADORABLE! so is mama! I'm so proud because before you said anything (or I read it lol) I thought..... hmmm looks like 2 black otters but the others are brown! Of course my brain didn't register chestnut cause I didn't know what mama was and I am new to this stuff of baby colors ..... so I got it pretty well right YAY!!!

Now, I nap one! hehehehe!


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