# What would be the best colors to breed together for a variety of showable/strong colors?



## MelissaPenguin

I have been talking to a very nice lady, and we were talking about me getting a breeding pair from her, and the doe also coming already bred to whatever buck I choose of hers. These are all lionheads, mind you. My doe is DM Sable Point.

Remember, I am looking to buy one of these, and would prefer to breed to a DIFFERENT buck then the one I'd be getting with her. These are my choices.

DM Broken Fawn VM
DM REW
DM Blue Point
DM Blue

By the time I get these babies, there's a possibility there may be a Siamese Sable, Tort, Red.


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## Just Mee

There is a bit more involved then just looking at them & picking colors. What color you see & what genetic color they add to a breeding isn't always the same thing. Certain colors are geneticly stronger & mask the other colors geneticly being brought in to the breeding. I know it sounds kinda strange but it works the same way in all living creatures. There are some web sites that explain this better than I can, I learned it in school ( I'm a Vet. Tech.). A good site for Lionheads is http://lionheadrabbit.net/gen_why5colors.htm. 

If you feel like learning more by checking the out come of proposed litters (or made up litters just to see the genetics) download Evan's rabbit software (the first 30 days are free) the genetic calculator built in there is very informative (besides just being a hoot to check out mock breedings) http://evans-software.com/.

 Good luck & enjoy !


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## GorbyJobRabbits

if you have a sable point, then its easiest to stick to shadeds. I'd personally buy a REW buck. Rew works good with shaded. The fawn I would not breed to the shadeds. 

Blue Points are not accepted in most breeds, if any.


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## hillrise

I wouldn't use the VM unless you have a BEW, since 1/2 of their kits will be VM (not showable)--the other half will be either BEW (if bred to a BEW) or whatever color their non-VM genes combine to make with the other parent (which may or may not be showable).

Usually, when pairing colors it is best to pair colors that only vary by one gene in the color sequence. A sable point is aaB-c(chl)-D-ee. An EXCELLENT pairing would be siamese sable (gets you more of each of those two colors, or just siamese sables that carry sable point), since siamese sables are only different on E. Another excellent pairing would be tort (again would get you both colors, or just torts carrying sable point), since torts are C.

Black himi (pointed white) could work, being c(h) on C, or REW (cc on C), but both of those colors completely hide the rest of their color genes, so you would need to look at the colors in their pedigree to determine compatibility.

Crossing with the blue point will most likely just get you Siamese Sables, possibly Sable Points, and possibly Smoke Pearls, depending on what each parent carries.

The blue could work as long as it doesn't carry squirrel. It varies on C and E, so has more variation that /I/ like to mix. It would most likely produce a litter of blacks. If the blue carries tort, you could get tort; if it carries sable, pointed white or REW, you could get siamese sable or seal; if it carries both, you could get torts and sable points, too. If your sable point carries dilute, you could get blues, blue tort, smoke pearl, and non-COD smoke pearl points (Frosted smoke pearl?), depending on what the blue carries. All of the kits would carry for the non-COD variety, though.

Fawn/Red vary on both the A and C genes from your sable point, so most likely the kits would come out as reds, but carry sable chinchilla (no COD).

Lionheads do have a COD for all pointed whites.


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## hillrise

I thought I'd also add on to here that right now the only colors that HAVE to be allowed at shows are Black, REW and Black Tort, since those are the colors the current COD holder is presenting. There are other colors with CODs, but they won't necessarily be in play until the current COD holder either steps down or after she passes her 3rd showing (2nd showing in November).


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## Just Mee

*hillrise wrote: *


> I thought I'd also add on to here that right now the only colors that HAVE to be allowed at shows are Black, REW and Black Tort, since those are the colors the current COD holder is presenting. There are other colors with CODs, but they won't necessarily be in play until the current COD holder either steps down or after she passes her 3rd showing (2nd showing in November).



Thanks hillrise for explaining it in detail !

I knew when I typed that the color the bun was isn't always the genetic color they brought in to a breeding that I should have just deleted my reply ... lol.

I'm also glad you brought up the COD, by my understanding (& I may be wrong) there is no way to know for sure what colors will be accepted by the ARBA when they accept the breed (thinking possitive). As in 5 colors could be on the COD & the ARBA may only decide to accept 2 or 3 of them (made up numbers just as examples).


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## hillrise

When a breed is approved, they have to accept all the colors that passed. For instance, the current COD holder has blacks, REWs and Black Torts. If, for some reason, one of those colors failed its 3rd showing, but the others passed, then the breed would be accepted, but only in the colors that passed. All the other colors will have to go through the approval process after the breed has been accepted.

I don't remember right now off the top of my head right now if they're allowed to retry the failed showing the next year, or it goes back to square one (needing three showings). I do know that if they fail twice, the COD passes to the next holder.

Also COD for brokens are not issued until the breed has an approved solid color to be broken (guess they decided that it's cruel to have a breed where 50% of the kits are either charlies or sports...)


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## MelissaPenguin

I know they are all pedigreed, and she told me she's suggest NOT the VM, so I figured that. I really like the REW, but was thinking about having her bred to him and getting a different male to keep. I really like the blue too. She doesn't know much on some of the buns. I can get the backgrounds that are on her website, if that helps any.


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## mistyjr

I love brokens in Lions, Very seen one in real life but I'm getting 2 from a nice breeders. And I plan on using my broken's for the Harlie/Tri program!


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## MelissaPenguin

I love tricolored buns, but was told Lionheads don't come in Tri.


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## TinysMom

*MelissaPenguin wrote: *


> I love tricolored buns, but was told Lionheads don't come in Tri.



Sure they do - they're just not showable! 

You simply have to find a breeder who breeds them for fun (vs. for show).


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## hillrise

MelissaPenguin wrote:


> I love tricolored buns, but was told Lionheads don't come in Tri.



There are a lot of harlequin and steel lionheads out there--those were actually some of first imported colors--but they've been trying to breed the colors out for show/breed-approval purposes (it's just too hard to get harlequin as an accepted color...I think Harlequins themselves are the only ones that have it accepted, even though tri-colors are common in most breeds that accept brokens).

Harlequin-colored rabbits are quite fun to breed, though, since you never know exactly how the pattern will turn out in the kits.


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## hillrise

MelissaPenguin wrote:


> I know they are all pedigreed, and she told me she's suggest NOT the VM, so I figured that. I really like the REW, but was thinking about having her bred to him and getting a different male to keep. I really like the blue too. She doesn't know much on some of the buns. I can get the backgrounds that are on her website, if that helps any.



Find out what colors are behind the REW and the blue to determine compatibility with your bun.


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## Just Mee

*mistyjr wrote: *


> I love brokens in Lions, Very seen one in real life but I'm getting 2 from a nice breeders. And I plan on using my broken's for the Harlie/Tri program!




My Harlie doe was bred to a Broken Blue ... I'm thinking the buns should be interesting. I can't figure out what color the Broken Blue's momis (she looks blue from one angle & red from another) to enter it in Evan's & have it come out with probabilities


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## hillrise

Usually, it's not a good idea to breed harlies to self colors because self & harlequin together make a smoky color rather than brindling them. If your harlie doesn't carry self, though, you'll most likely get regular harlies & tris, blue/fawn harlies & tris if she carries dilute.

Did you mean that the blue's mom is blue/red or that the blue is blue/red? It's possible that she is a self blue/fawn harlie, like I described, but I'd think that the red would look more fawn than red, and probably a patchy kinda color (haven't seen a self harli myself, but I've read about them).


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## mistyjr

I *Just Mee wrote: *


> *mistyjr wrote: *
> 
> 
> 
> I love brokens in Lions, Very seen one in real life but I'm getting 2 from a nice breeders. And I plan on using my broken's for the Harlie/Tri program!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My Harlie doe was bred to a Broken Blue ... I'm thinking the buns should be interesting. I can't figure out what color the Broken Blue's momis (she looks blue from one angle & red from another) to enter it in Evan's & have it come out with probabilities
Click to expand...

I havent got my 2 broken's yet, Not until Convention for the one and just waiting on the breeder for the other broken doe.. And I have both orange/black & black/white harile's... I cant wait to work on them!

One is a broken chocolate otter doe
and a broken black buck!


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## MelissaPenguin

I know it's in a completely different direction than the original purpose of the post, but I've decided to go in a different direction, and come Friday, I will be putting a down on 5 rabbits. Netherland Dwarfs. 1 VM buck, a trio of shaded, and a REW kit. I haven't decided on the breeding arrangements yet, but it should be interesting.  I am building a whole new hutch for them, and the lady I am getting them from is giving me a package deal on the 5 buns, a tattoo machine, 12 nest boxes, a double carrier and J feeders. I will be going to pick them all up on October 14th.


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## Just Mee

*hillrise wrote: *


> Usually, it's not a good idea to breed harlies to self colors because self & harlequin together make a smoky color rather than brindling them. If your harlie doesn't carry self, though, you'll most likely get regular harlies & tris, blue/fawn harlies & tris if she carries dilute.
> 
> Did you mean that the blue's mom is blue/red or that the blue is blue/red? It's possible that she is a self blue/fawn harlie, like I described, but I'd think that the red would look more fawn than red, and probably a patchy kinda color (haven't seen a self harli myself, but I've read about them).



My harlie doe is a blue/fawn & the buck is broken blue. The buck's mother is the unknown to me color she looks red (not fawn or orange) from one angle & blue from another, I will have to see if I can get a picture from the breeder.



harlie dilute doe - her father harlie dilute - from a harlie dilute buck 

- her mother orange - from black & orange lines

broken blue buck - his father broken blue - from a broken blue

- his mother red / blue color - I have no background on her

I couldn't run probablilties on this match because of lack of info on the bucks mom.


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## mistyjr

Here are my 2 Harlie Lions! 

2-Magpies (1 I am keeping and the other is going to a breeder)





Harlie Jr. Doe








I got this info from 2 special friends and breeders!

Colors that work with Tri's & harlie's
they are:
Broken Black
Broken Blue
Broken Red/Orange
Broken Lilac
Broken Siamese Sable

first litter out of the those type will not be tri's but are now carriers
You then take the best broken does back to the Harli sire to get your tri going.. And use no broken that haves tort in the background.


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## TinysMom

Bob Whitman's "Blue Boy" was known to often throw harlequins when he was bred to others. I guess it was a shock at first then folks learned that he carried harlequin.

Of course I didn't know this when I bought him and bred him to a chestnut (hoping for opal) and got a harlequin out of it. I also bred him to Miss Bea (who was his granddaughter) and got gorgeous harlequins with very nice markings...like hers.

Anyway - I just thought I'd share that. Back about 7 years ago, Blue Boy was on a LOT of pedigrees as Bob Whitman was one of the major importers of lionheads.


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## MelissaPenguin

Omg your magpie's are adorable!  I love harli colors.


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