# pet over population myth



## Tinkerbell Rabbitry (Feb 20, 2011)

On another forum someone had posted links to these articles, and I found them very interesting. 

http://www.spanieljournal.com/33lbaughan.html

http://www.naiatrust.org/resources/foreign_strays.htm

Please do not post anything about it being a lie, because these articles are backed with evidence and statistics.

Hanna


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Feb 20, 2011)

I recently saw those as well and it was very eye-opening. I especially like the Spaniel article.


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## RandomWiktor (Feb 20, 2011)

The problem that I see with articles such as these is that the bias in them is just as apparent as the bias in articles written by hardline animal rights activists. The authors are clearly pro-breeding, anti-animal rights, which makes them just as biased as anti-breeding, pro-animal rights authors. I don't trust much of anything written by a source that isn't even making the pretense of being objective. 

I'm not saying that the article doesn't make valid points or that it isn't on the money about several things - indeed, the book Redemption (which pushes for a no-kill movement) pointed out years ago that we don't have an issue of pet "overpopulation," but rather of pet abandonment and homelessness, that can easily be cured with better shelter management and public education.

Personally, I'm not sure how anyone can argue much in favor of pets being over or under populated in general. It is not a natural population being sustained by an ecosystem; it is a captive population and the degree to which the "environment" - human homes - can sustain it relies ENTIRELY on the degree to which humans are willing to step up to the plate and provide quality homes. 

IDK, color me unimpressed. I can't take an article seriously if it suggests that the reason shelters "import" pets from other regions and countries is because they are money grubbing greed machines, for example - they have NO way to back that claim, might I add - it is conjecture, not a quantifiable statistic. I have worked at shelters that import from other regions, and they have one reason for it: helping where the greatest perceived need is. For example, one of the shelters I worked at up north would pull dogs from overcrowded high kill shelters down south. I knew the lady who did it, and do you want to know why? Because she visited the south, saw healthy, friendly, adoptable dogs being loaded into crude gas chambers, and said, "This doesn't have to happen; I can help these dogs." Our area had a greater availability of homes, due to a higher socioeconomic status and a lesser problem of pet homelessness. It seemed rational enough to someone who loves animals to help out those less fortunate. 

I honestly find it very disheartening that two populations of people who love dogs and cats - (responsible) breeders and shelters - are more interested in sniping one another over a difference of philosophy than putting their differences aside and focusing on the real problem: why pets end up homeless. Because it is normally something HIGHLY preventable that could be worked on from both the breeding and rescue community.


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## Tinkerbell Rabbitry (Feb 20, 2011)

No offence, but can I ask you this, are you a breeder or HRS supporter? I'm a good breeder and I do argue that good breeders have no part in this issue.


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## Myia09 (Feb 20, 2011)

No offense Tinkerbell, but you can't post 2 articles (NOT JOURNALS, the "Spaniel" journal is not an accredited "journal") and say "Don't debate them, they are true."

I am not saying they are false either...they could have quality data. IF they were to cite sources. While Spaniel does site some (A sparingly amount) most of them are emotional quotes, and lack actual hard concrete evidence. Some are also taken out of context, like the "importing" section. 

There are some good points, but to say that shelters are not overcrowded, animals are not being put down, ect ect IS false. I would like to point out that Springer journal only took out "Shelters" information, and didn't include RESCUES. For every shelter, there are private rescues. 

The main error in the Springer article is the fact they try to say every animal has a place in a home..someone is willing to adopt it. That it is shelters and humans fault for not placing these animals. It is too long of a argument to sit here and type out.

Secondly, as you breed rabbits, this article did NOT point out pets in general. They pointed out DOGS AND CATS. Rabbits can breed much more than dogs or cats, and are overpopulated, so I don't mean to be rude, but if you are using 2 articles (not actual scientific journals) to back up your reason to breed, you are using the wrong information. I am not saying that in any mean tone or way, I am simply stating these articles leave out rabbits, a quickly bred, large output animal out. 

Just my two cents on the validity of these articles.


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## Myia09 (Feb 20, 2011)

RandomWiktor wrote:


> The problem that I see with articles such as these is that the bias in them is just as apparent as the bias in articles written by hardline animal rights activists. The authors are clearly pro-breeding, anti-animal rights, which makes them just as biased as anti-breeding, pro-animal rights authors. I don't trust much of anything written by a source that isn't even making the pretense of being objective.
> 
> I'm not saying that the article doesn't make valid points or that it isn't on the money about several things - indeed, the book Redemption (which pushes for a no-kill movement) pointed out years ago that we don't have an issue of pet "overpopulation," but rather of pet abandonment and homelessness, that can easily be cured with better shelter management and public education.
> 
> ...



:yes:


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## RandomWiktor (Feb 20, 2011)

> No offence, but can I ask you this, are you a breeder or HRS supporter? I'm a good breeder and I do argue that good breeders have no part in this issue.



You saw me saying that responsible breeders are part of the problem where, exactly? :?I have not made that arguement at all. What I have argued is that I felt this article was biased - which it undeniably was just as much as many articles by AR groups are.

And I am definitely a HRS supporter. Why wouldn't I be? They have been at the front lines of promoting a relationship between people and rabbits on par with the relationship between people and cats/dogs. They have educated thousands of people about the excellent companions rabbits can be when you make them part of the household, provide them with proper nutrition and vet care, etc. Supporting a group that has done as much excellent work as they have does not make me an extremist by any stretch.


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## Tinkerbell Rabbitry (Feb 20, 2011)

I never said that you had said I just asked a question. I have however many many times been told by HRS supporters that I am to blame for this because I breed rabbits.

@ Myia09 I'm editing that part out.

It won't let me now. 

ETA I've also heard rescues contacting breeders, who have a client that is wanting a specific breed but they don't have any in that breed, so they go looking for a breeder that does and gets one for them from that breeder.


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## RandomWiktor (Feb 20, 2011)

Assuming/implying that an association with HRS and rabbit rescue means a rabid anti-breeding stance is unfortunately just as incorrect as assuming breeding means one is irresponsibly churning out rabbits and condemning thousands to homelessness and euthanasia.

I personally am more concerned with IRresponsible breeding - the kind of breeding that mass produces rabbits for chain pet stores, the kind where rabbits are bought and sold without the remotest assurance that the owner is ready for the responsibility and expense of a rabbit. Because that sort of breeding and selling DOES very directly contribute to homelessness when unprepared, impulsive, and sometimes even mislead owners realize they can't handle their new bunny.


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## Myia09 (Feb 20, 2011)

"blame for this."

What is this? Overpopulation? I think it is breeding, failure to spay and neuter, and general lack of knowledge of husbandry that is at fault for rabbit overpopulation. It is not one sided. 

So I guess, by in turn, I am blaming you? I am not personally attacking you. It would be false to say there are no good, responsible breeders. I have problem with people who breed just to breed; low quality rabbits, mixed rabbits, rabbits just because. Breeding rabbits with no certainty of them having a home. Breeding then selling an unfixed rabbit so the person who buys it can further breed it (accidently or not) 

My biggest problem is people who buy from breeders instead of adopting. That is probably the main problem. If they didn't buy, people wouldn't breed. Designer bunnies, dogs, cats, whatever. They HAVE TO have a lionhead. Because if they don't have a lionhead, there life would be dramatically different. What happened to adopting for personality, not looks? I am not innocent by this either. I am just glad I realized it.


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## Tinkerbell Rabbitry (Feb 20, 2011)

@ Myia09 I'm not using these articles to "justify" my breeding. Each of my does have about 2 litters every year, yes they are capable of having many more but I breed for quality rather than quantity, and so do all my friends that are breeders. All of my pet rabbits go to loving homes, and if for some reason they can not keep their rabbit, I will take it back, but I will ask why. I also apologize if I have offended ether of you, but this is my opinion.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Feb 20, 2011)

I don't think anyone is using articles to support their reason for breeding. Reputable breeders are not breeding in order to up the population of rabbits. So whether there is an "overpopulation" or not, that will not affect the goal of reputable breeders.

Myia09 wrote:


> My biggest problem is people who buy from breeders instead of adopting. That is probably the main problem. If they didn't buy, people wouldn't breed. Designer bunnies, dogs, cats, whatever. They HAVE TO have a lionhead. Because if they don't have a lionhead, there life would be dramatically different. What happened to adopting for personality, not looks? I am not innocent by this either. I am just glad I realized it.



I'm a little concerned about your reasoning here. Why is it a bad thing to purchase a rabbit from a breeder rather than purchasing from a shelter?

No matter what kind of animal I bring into my home, I have very specific demands. For example, there are certain breeds of horses that I like because of their temperament or coat pattern. So I don't see anything wrong with waiting until I can find the look I want, along with personality. If that happened to pop up in a shelter or rescue, great! But if not, reputable breeders are great sources for pets. They can give you the animal's entire health history, genetic history, etc. On the whole, personalities also tend to be great because many breeders focus on breeding for temperament. Whereas, when you adopt an animal, many of them (in the case of bunnies) tend to be the type that don't like to be held or handled, just because they don't come from backgrounds that spent much time with them.

Shelter and rescue animals are very hit or miss. It is excellent that some people are able to find their perfect new furry friend there and give them a good home. But if not, that's okay too. People are less likely to neglect or give up their animals if they spend time and money finding the animal they really want...regardless of where it comes from. That's the #1 way to start fixing the homelessness issue!


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## SNM (Feb 20, 2011)

Depending on location, it may be a challenge to get a rabbit from a shelter/rescue.I can only think of one rabbit rescue, and that's Magic Happens in Baton Rouge. 

The one problem I have with breeders are the ones that say "We're breeding for easter bunnies".You can't always tell who wants a bunny just to have something small for easter. If I do have a litter ready around easter, I have a rule that I won't sell them the week before or of easter. I'm amazed at the number of people that need that bunny the week of easter and can't wait till the week after.I would like to think that every person that gets a rabbit is a dedicated owner that's aware of the responsibility and wants a long time pal/pet. Sadly, that's not the case, and lack of information on the care and maintnence of the breed contributes to the problem.
I think the dedicated breeders do help with the education of the public


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## Myia09 (Feb 20, 2011)

Wow. I found your reasoning to be extremely heartbreaking for shelter bunnies and shelter animals all over the country.

First off, they are not hit or miss. Rabbits DON'T like to be held in general. But to stereotype all shelter bunnies (or most) as "don't like to be held or handled" is extremely offensive and incorrect. Very incorrect. I wonder how many shelters you have been to. Most rescue bunnies I meet are some of the sweetest most loving rabbits ever. MOST breeders of the rabbit nation DON'T breed for temperament..the breed for quality. ND and other dwarf breeds are notorious for their bad attitudes and lack of wanting to be held or picked up. And yes, I have researched this, and yes I have been to rabbit shows, and yes I have talked to breeders! 

I don't think comparing horses to rabbits is an accurate example either. There isn't as many in shelters, and you do need a good temperament for a horse to ride or to use. But see, with your logic, people DON'T look at rescue first, because they are buying "damaged goods" that can't be possibly as good as from a breeder. A horse in a rescue is going to be "ugly" "stubborn" "sickly" from what your post says. (Because only if you buy a bred horse will it be pretty, good temperament, and healthy) 

Yes, paint horses are extremely pretty. Most have great temperaments. But that doesn't make them ANY BETTER THAN THOSE "PLAIN OLD HORSES" IN THE RESCUES OR IN FACT ANY DIFFERENT!

Many people will tell you their rescue animals are more grateful and loving than bred animals because they know what you did for them!

Just because a rabbit doesn't come from a pedigree doesn't make it an unhealthy, risky, grumpy, non social rabbit. To even say most are is EXTREMELY inconsiderate.

And this goes for ALL animals. 

And the #1 way to fix homelessness is to find homes for the HOMELESS pets, IE FROM RESCUES AND SHELTERS. Not to BREED MORE FOR EVEN MORE HOMES. It IS A BAD THING because there are thousands of poor rabbits facing euthensia because people don't want to adopt. On reasoning like your presenting. Rescued rabbits must be damaged goods. They are damaged good because they were thrown away by irresponsible breeders and irresponsible owners. And that is not their fault. Maybe people shouldn't be so lazy and get off their butts AND SPEND THE TIME TO HELP THAT BUNNY?! If it is such the case rescued bunnies are that way. 

That is applying the same reasoning as a child born in the slums is less of a human, and is a poor excuse of a human compared to a child born in a rich, well caring family. The same exact reasoning! That somehow they are broken and will never be normal. 

I wasn't offended by you Tinkerbell. I thought the articles made great points. I see your opinion and it is based on logic and reason, even if I don't agree with it. But Julie, I find your post extremely disheartening and honestly enraging. It is a huge insult to rescue bunnies and animals everywhere.

:soapbox

I totally may be losing my cool here..but to generalize shelter bunnies that way really ticks me off.


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## Sweetie (Feb 20, 2011)

First of all I like to point out: why do you think that they are spaying and neutering? There IS an overpopulation of dogs and cats. That is what spaying and neutering are trying to control the population of pets.

There are responsible and irresponsible breeders out there and the irresponsible ones are the ones who don't care about the animals. The resposible ones will have a spay and neuter contract to prevent more dogs and cats into this world.

My point is that there is an overpopulation problem, there are a lot of homeless pets in the streets and in shelters.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Feb 20, 2011)

Myia09- I am sorry that you felt that I was generalizing anything. That was not my goal, I was just hoping to explain that everyone's needs or wants are different.

I am certainly not saying that there are not sweet shelter bunnies out there. I am only saying that many of them come from very sad situations in which they may not have had much (if any) human contact. My experience has been that bunnies do love to be held and fawned over when they have had that kind of interaction since they were young. I don't blame the rabbits for the way they've been treated, but as many adopters have experienced, the rabbits from those situations are not always comfortable with that kind of interaction and more prefer playing with you on the floor. Again, it is wonderful that some owners learn how to make their bunnies comfortable and interact with them on that level. But some people do want cuddly lap bunnies. It is not true that most people don't breed for temperament. It's true that the overall goal has been to improve the structure and soundness of the breeds, but in recent decades, the type on rabbits has become very consistent and breeders have shifted towards focusing on temperament because rabbits are largely pets now, rather than just production animals like they were in the past. Not every rabbit is going to be a cuddle bun, but many of us do strive for that. I know I personally like even my show rabbits to be friendly pets.

I wasn't trying to compare to horses either, but just giving an example that many people do prefer different coat patterns and such in any animal. And that I feel like that's okay. It's not that being white makes an animal different from a black one. But if that person loves white animals, then they are a great home for a white one, you know?

I'm sorry that my post came off differently, and I did not mean that there is any group that is best. Only that every pet owner deserves the opportunity to obtain the pet that is best for them. I don't think anyone should be given a turned shoulder for their decision, whether it is from a rescue or a breeder.

I'd rather not get into the debate about whether or not breeding is "okay", because I don't think that was the goal of this post. But I did just want to explain where I was coming from, I hope that explains better.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Feb 20, 2011)

It won't let me edit my post anymore. :/ But I was going to add another example I just thought of-

I'm sure you've heard that some dog breeds are prone to hip displaysia (sp?). So that is another case where, if a person wants a dog of that breed, they may seek out a breeder that has been working on improving the soundness of their animals.

It is absolutely fantastic that so many people across the U.S. have opened up their homes to pets that were in need, no matter what their origin is! I was just initially trying to respond to what you said in one of your previous posts:

"My biggest problem is people who buy from breeders instead of adopting. That is probably the main problem."

Because there are just some cases where people do seek out breeders, for various reasons. I don't think that's better or worse than seeking out pets in a rescue. My point was just that everyone has different needs and different things they're looking for in their new pet. 

Kind of off topic now, I just wanted to let you know that I think maybe I communicated my original thoughts wrong. I only want what's best for every animal, just like you do.


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## CiaraPatricia (Feb 20, 2011)

I think in Ireland there is definitely a cat and dog overpopulation. 

There's not a rabbit overpopulation here and it's hard to find rabbits for sale here (from breeders or in shelters), so I have no problem with breeding rabbits and selling them to good homes. I have a problem with bad breeders especially ones who sell to pet shops.

I don't have a problem with being a good breeder of purebred dogs (or cats) either, because I think that people will always want to buy them, so it's better that they find a good breeder than go to a puppy farm or bad breeder. It can be hard to find good breeders here, so I think there's a need for them.

I know that people could just get their purebred dogs from shelters, but everyone isn't going to do that. People are still going to want to get puppies from breeders, and if there are no good breeders, then they might go to bad ones more.

All my dogs are from breeders cos I wanted Cavaliers, for their sweet personality, and their size because I don't have a huge garden. All cats are more similar so my cats are rescues, because I didn't want a specific type.


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## MiniLopHop (Feb 20, 2011)

I think it may come down to expectations. Every one has expectations to some degree for their new pet. How do you see it fitting into your life? What kinds of traits do you really want them to have?

If a person has very specific expectations they very well may be better off going to a breeder because then they can have a check list of traits that they can reliably get. They will be happy with the pet and give it a good home.

Say the same person tries to get a shelter pet and only gets half of the things they want from an animal. Chances are they will become frustrated and the animal will have either a suboptimal home or end up in a shelter. No one wins.

I personally rescue all of my animals. However, one of my "expectations" is that I want to feel good saving a life. I'm much more linient on particular looks, or temperment in general. I am willing to put a lot of time into helping animals heal emotionally from a rough start. 

If people are honest about what expectations they have from the beginning perhaps we would have better matches and fewer pets ending up in the shelters. Just my two cents.



And for whatever it is worth, one of my rescue bunns loves to cuddle. The other one not so much yet. It just melts my heart to have my bun that came from a rough background nudge my ankle and ask to be snuggled. That is why I go back for more.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Feb 20, 2011)

MiniLopHop wrote:


> If people are honest about what expectations they have from the beginning perhaps we would have better matches and fewer pets ending up in the shelters. Just my two cents.



Exactly! Very good point, that's what I was trying to get at.


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## Happi Bun (Feb 20, 2011)

Shelters and Rescues always have you sign a contract or at least be in agreement that if it should not work out with the animal you adopted you should bring it back. Often times the rabbits available are past puberty, thus their personality is more stable, making it possible for you to know what kind of bunny you are getting. They will also let you know which have emotional scars and if they will need socialization. The problem you can encounter with babies (breeder OR rescue) is that their personality will change as they age and they are not litterbox trained or speutered. In my work with rabbit rescues I mostly see rabbits being pulled from overcrowded shelters, large hoarder/breeding seizures and owner surrender pet store dumps that had no clue what they were getting into.

The reason rabbits are euthanized everyday in crowded shelters is because there are more available than their are homes to adopt them. Just like cats and dogs. Each day approximately 10,000 humans are born in the U.S. Each day approximately 70,000 kittens and puppies are born as well. That leaves 5 million animals in shelters to die this year. There are just not enough homes.


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## Violet Crumbles (Feb 20, 2011)

Hi, all. I'm chiming in for the first time in a long time - it's long lost me ( http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=58295&forum_id=26&jump_to=784757#p784757 ) .

I've read the first article recently. It is excellent. It helped me connect the dots between various other articles and live radio topics addressing the same misrepresentation of numbers reported by shelters. It also made my personal experiences in one metropolitan shelter make a lot more sense. lol

Though one might expect the articles to lead people to bring up their passionate views on the old shelters vs. breeders debate, Myia09, you have really gone over the top. Based on your outdated views on rabbit raising and misuse of terminology, I'd have to say that I do not believe that you know what you are talking about.

As to the idea that rabbits do not like being picked up? It is a common myth that rescuers routinely use to cover up, or gloss over, behavioral issues in the rabbits they adopt out. Keep the adopter's expectations low and they won't be disappointed, right? If you're experience with rabbits has proven this myth to be true to YOU, then you are really missing out. Rabbits LOVE to be held, picked up, cuddled in my lap for hours, climb, be groomed, etc. That is overwhelmingly the case in MY experience which is broad.

If there is a rabbit that is not easily picked up and held, it is either a problem with the rabbit (due to past lack of handling or mishandling/socializing) or it is their current human's problem (they do not practice proper rabbit handling techniques). 

My time in the shelter opened my eyes to many a thing. Firstly, that I had been lied to about where these shelter animals came from. Looking at a number of over 250 rabbits that came in within one period of time, seven, SEVEN came from breeders and five of those should have never been there (the breeder dumped them at the shelter) and one was a complete mystery who it came from. It was an extremely well socialized, exceptionally rare breed that was euthanized for no reason other than it was one larger rabbit in a overcrowded room of smaller (reads: adoptable) mutts. So, those other 243 rabbits that were sentenced to a stressed out existence in a "state of the art" shelter that was not built for their comfort....where did they come from if not from evil breeders? They came from irresponsible pet owners who bought them from pet shops who bought them from one of a handful of national pet brokers OR back yard breeders (aka - the irresponsible pet owner, themselves, continuing a cycle).

Don't tell me that all those "Hotot mixes", "Dutch crosses", Mini Rex with thin curly coats, or "English Spots" (not English Spots) came from the same kind of breeder I see on this forum which you seem bent on vilifying. :rollseyes If you want to be able to correctly identify who you enemy is, it helps to know what they actually look like (hint: not these god send reputable breeders that can help you in tremendous ways).

Show exhibitors (aka reputable breeders) breed for excellence. Period. Not for numbers, not for others, and not at the expense of quality as a whole - temperament being one of the vital measurements of a quality show rabbit. 

If your avatar is a depiction of you, I highly doubt you are old enough to have remembered any of the generations of NDs that are said to be notorious for bad temperaments. More likely that you experienced one bad apple. Those days of high strung, aggressive NDs are all but gone. NDs now days are more akin to having a lively JW temperament than anything else. They're sweet because breeders made them that way because temperament is extremely important in any domestic animal.

I understand that it must be frustrating to your cause that some people don't adopt rabbits from shelters. I know that feeling. But to blame lulls in adoption on breeders or those buying from reputable breeders is misplaced anger at best. There are many excellent points made in this thread. Education is the key to keeping shelter numbers low as well as finding the best, permanent homes for animals. Whether those animals are were bought from a shelter or a breeder, education keeps them out of the shelter and keeps the numbers of unwanted animal births down.

I don't recognize all the members here but I think it is appropriate to suggest to you, Myia09, to not kill the messenger simply because you do not like the message.


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## JadeIcing (Feb 20, 2011)

Like all things in life, there is good and bad to both sides. When it comes to bunnies I am more likely to go through the rescue. When it comes to dogs? That is a toss up, though more than likely will go to a breeder. When it comes to my reptiles? That could and has gone both ways.

To say that all breeders are bad is not true. Same as it would be a lie to say all are good. Ditto for pet owners; rescues; shelters. There is good and bad like there is in everything in life.

Knowledge is key to making the right choices for your pets/family/life. Look into to all aspects of owning an animal and keep an open mind to information given to you.

I work with those "reject" bunnies. All have come around to varied degrees. I saw a frightened bunny become a social butterfly. I saw a aggressive rabbit become a lover. I accept that each is different. I have gone to shows where there are some sweet social bunnies gone to the next breeder and the bunnies are holy terrors. I have spoken to breeders who will tell you a whole litter raised with love and attention but for some reason there is one who just doesn't want to be held. Little use for humans. I have seen the same with litters born IN the rescue.


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## Happi Bun (Feb 20, 2011)

I have a one year old unshowable Netherland Dwarf I got from a breeder as a cull that is super territorial and high strung. It started when he hit puberty and never left despite neutering. I'm trying to work with him on it. I wouldn't call the breeder responsible though and she was likely breeding ill tempered ND's.

While you bring up some good points, you really stepped on a lot of toes with your first post on this forum, especially calling out Myia personally and questioning her knowledge simply because you disagree. I take it personally when you make an accusation that rescues LIE about rabbits often times not enjoying being cuddled and picked up.


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## JadeIcing (Feb 20, 2011)

Oh and a side note. I would not breed rabbits here because I see how many emails we get about bunnies in need. I am considering breeding leos down the road. The closet leo in a rescue to me is in NJ. 150miles away.


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## Violet Crumbles (Feb 20, 2011)

Beautifully said, JadeIcing.

Happi Bun, I'm not new to the rabbit world. I'm familiar with well known rabbit rescues, worked with them, trained their shelter reps. I rescue. I educate. I know a whole lot more about what is routine for those rescues in my state than I'll ever tell. 

I don't know Myia09 from Adam. In this thread, I'll oppose her, in the next, be by her side. It's not personal.

I'm a big fan of the saying "You cannot be offended unless you are willing to be". No offense was meant by me, just as I am sure no offense was meant by Myia09. Both what she and I stated make for good debate. There is none if there are not two sides. 

My point of view is closer to JadeIcing statements. There is a lot of truth to be found in the middle ground and it is rarely so extremely one sided as some make it to be.

As far as first impressions, make them whatever you want. I've never found happiness in worrying about what people think of, or will say of, me, though, I've found that those that take the time to consider what I say do respect me. I chalk up my frankness to experience, genetic defects, and getting old but mainly it's my genetic defects.


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## tonyshuman (Feb 20, 2011)

I want to add that Rabbits Online is nearly unique among online rabbit communities in that it is a site where breeders and rescuers get along (more or less) and are able to learn things from each other. It is important that we respect each other.

It is not a lie that millions of animals are euthanized every year in shelters due to lack of homes. Some shelters are better at adopting out some animals, and for that reason they may take in animals on "death row" from other shelters. The shelter I volunteer with has not euthanized a rabbit for lack of space/lack of homes in years; we routinely take in rabbits that would otherwise be euthanized from other counties' shelters. My Frida is one of those very bunnies--about to be PTS at another shelter, brought to our shelter, and then adopted to a good home. 

On the other hand, we cannot find enough homes for cats and do have to euthanize perfectly healthy, sociable cats that we cannot find homes for. We are also better with dogs, in part because many of our dogs go to breed-specific rescues instead of staying a long time at the shelter.

Pet over-population is not a myth. Where these animals come from is a matter of some debate, however. Every shelter will be different, but most of the bunnies we take in come from 4H or pet stores. Most of these bunnies were not accidentally created, ie "oops" litters. Does that mean they came from "reputable" breeders? No. The pet store bunnies typically are from backyard breeders or suppliers like others have mentioned. 4H bunnies do sometimes come from good breeders originally, but they are often further bred by children who cannot be responsible for tens of bunnies, and then the child who owns the bunny loses interest and gives the animal up. Not all 4H bunnies meet this fate of course but it is what I see in my shelter.

I am sorry that some people associated with HRS take a very hard-line stance against rabbit breeders. Not everyone who does rescue has those beliefs.

It is my opinion that responsible breeders are not the problem, and by responsible I mean a breeder who sells their show-quality bunnies to other responsible breeders, and sells their pet-quality bunnies to good homes, and then guarantees to take the bunnies back if the home will no longer work out. In this situation, a responsible breeder's bunnies will never end up in a shelter or rescue. Unfortunately, not all breeders are responsible in this way, just as not all HRS people think all breeding is bad.

Pet overpopulation in terms of dogs and cats cannot be ignored, however. There are so many people who get animals from friends or coworkers accidental litters, do not have the fixed, and then allow them to have contact with other intact animals, leading to more accidental litters. I help with low-cost spay/neuter services that exist just to reduce this problem. Most of the animals we get have been gotten from backyard breeders or accidental breeding due to irresponsible pet ownership. Having an unfixed animal that has access to the out-of-doors is irresponsible because they will come into contact with other unfixed animals and lead to litters. That is where most dogs and cats in shelters come from. This is less common with bunnies because you cannot have a free-roaming indoor/outdoor rabbit like you can a cat, and you cannot tie up a rabbit in the yard where other animals that are roaming free might be able to mate with it. Very few dogs or cats in shelters came from people who bought them from a responsible breeder.

It is astounding how rapidly cats in particular multiply; we have a large feral population in the farmlands around Madison. Most of these cats cannot be placed in homes due to their personalities. However, some people do rehabilitate them into pets. Cats that are owned by people in the city also get out and get pregnant. 

There is no way to make generalizations about animals in shelters regarding health or personality.


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## Myia09 (Feb 20, 2011)

Violet Crumbles wrote:


> Though one might expect the articles to lead people to bring up their passionate views on the old shelters vs. breeders debate, Myia09, you have really gone over the top.Â  Based on your outdated views on rabbit raising and misuse of terminology, I'd have to say that I do not believe that you know what you are talking about.
> 
> As to the idea that rabbits do not like being picked up?Â  It is a common myth that rescuers routinely use to cover up, or gloss over, behavioral issues in the rabbits they adopt out.Â  Keep the adopter's expectations low and they won't be disappointed, right?Â  If you're experience with rabbits has proven this myth to be true to YOU, then you are really missing out.Â  Rabbits LOVE to be held, picked up, cuddled in my lap for hours, climb, be groomed, etc.Â  That is overwhelmingly the case in MY experience which is broad.
> 
> ...



Hi Violet 

I am not sure what terminology I have misused, and if I did I apologize. However, my views or not outdated. In actuality, I don't see how you gathered enough information about myself, my rabbits, or my beliefs to make that statement. 

Rabbits are prey animals. Done deal. I never said rabbits don't love to be groomed, cuddled, or what not. In fact, my rabbits, when I come to their level, are very snuggly bunnies. However, I refuse to believe it is natural for a rabbit to feel comfortable with being picked up and carried around. Being put in a lap is very different than being picked up. Confusion on terms maybe? 

I can pick up my rabbits just fine. However, it doesn't mean they LIKE it. Yes, some rabbits freak out when being picked up and I believe that is from importer handling and not being used to it. 

But if you expect me to believe that a prey animal like to be in picked up and carried, I disagree. Toleration and agreement is different.

I think were also mis conceptualizing breeders. Lots of rabbits in rescues are accidental litters as well. Most of the rabbits in the 3 main rescues here in Arizona are owner surrenders. Most of them bought the rabbit from a breeder or a store, not adopted. In fact, I said that the main problem is people who buy from these breeders and pet store. Now, we can easily say crack heads are the drug problem, but who is supplying them with the drugs? The dealers. Same logic. 

And in fact, you make a fool out of yourself for not properly reading my posts. In fact, I said that there are good breeders. I have no doubt of that. But I would 100% agree that MOST breeders are NOT that good breeder. 

Second, don't attack my age. You don't even actually know how old I am, although I am flattered you find me so young. I have over 13 years rescuing exotics. I will say I am fairly new to rabbits (With coming into the rabbit world in the past 3-4 years) but I have extensive knowledge in exotic handling and care. I have rescued mostly reptiles and fish, pets that are often completely tossed away without anyone like lawmakers that care. 

Third, I have extensively research rabbits and breeds. Yes, I had a very independent ND. Most ND-which have actually been from "Good breeders" -that I have experiences with have been extremely independent. I shouldn't generalize breeds either, at all. To say all ND are that way is wrong.

Again, this is where you should read my posts more carefully. I in fact said the main problem was the people who buy them; not the breeders. So who am I really vilifying? 

PS:
You can tell someone they are wrong and not be mean or mean offense. You CAN'T tell someone, from literally 3 posts, the huge inaccurate generalizations you have made about me. That is offensive. 

Luckily, I don't care.


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## Myia09 (Feb 20, 2011)

OakRidgeRabbits wrote:


> Myia09- I am sorry that you felt that I was generalizing anything. That was not my goal, I was just hoping to explain that everyone's needs or wants are different.
> 
> I am certainly not saying that there are not sweet shelter bunnies out there. I am only saying that many of them come from very sad situations in which they may not have had much (if any) human contact. My experience has been that bunnies do love to be held and fawned over when they have had that kind of interaction since they were young. I don't blame the rabbits for the way they've been treated, but as many adopters have experienced, the rabbits from those situations are not always comfortable with that kind of interaction and more prefer playing with you on the floor. Again, it is wonderful that some owners learn how to make their bunnies comfortable and interact with them on that level. But some people do want cuddly lap bunnies. It is not true that most people don't breed for temperament. It's true that the overall goal has been to improve the structure and soundness of the breeds, but in recent decades, the type on rabbits has become very consistent and breeders have shifted towards focusing on temperament because rabbits are largely pets now, rather than just production animals like they were in the past. Not every rabbit is going to be a cuddle bun, but many of us do strive for that. I know I personally like even my show rabbits to be friendly pets.
> 
> ...



I see where you were coming from. Although I still don't agree fully, clarification is much appreciated 

I really see your point and can def agree that it is the most important for a person to get the right pet.

Again, it does go back to the owners.


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## Violet Crumbles (Feb 20, 2011)

*Tinkerbell Rabbitry wrote: *


> ETA I've also heard rescues contacting breeders, who have a client that is wanting a specific breed but they don't have any in that breed, so they go looking for a breeder that does and gets one for them from that breeder.


I passed this right up. 

Are you talking about rabbits? I brought that up on another forum because it happened to me. :banghead If this is were you heard it, your above statement is not all true. The rescues were declined sale for obvious ethical reasons. They were not actually able to buy rabbits for their clients from me or the east coast breeder.

If I seem jaded, it is because of my experiences.


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## naturestee (Feb 21, 2011)

I think this is a case where people who are only involved in proper, responsible breeding see one far side and the people who are only involved in rescue may see the far end of the other side. I volunteer in a shelter that routinely has to euthanize cats, frequently dogs, and in extreme circumstances rabbits, rats, and other critters due to space constraints and lack of adopters. I also have attended several ARBA rabbit shows, married a farmer, and know a lot of people in 4H.

*What responsible breeders don't see*: There ARE irresponsible breeders too. I live in Wisconsin, and let me tell you that in Sheboygan we can't wait for the new dog breeding rules to come into effect. Why? There is a local puppy mill that churns out multiple breeds of poorly bred, horrendously cared for dogs. There are currently no laws in place that allow us to even fine him for keeping dogs in old barrels with no food or water and living in their own poop. When he can't breed a dog any more due to age or health, he advertises them in the paper for free. I've seen some get pulled in by the shelter and they need months of work in foster homes to socialize and potty train them. As far as rabbits go, the local 4H program apparently does not do a very good job. We regularly get 4H rabbits after the kid doesn't feel like caring for them any more. Several were in horrible condition. We have also had problems with "backyard" rabbit breeders, especially around Easter, some of which dump their leftover Easter rabbits on us. We've had cases where when someone decided to stop breeding their mutt rabbits, they dumped them all on us, pregnant females and syphilis and all. NOT FUN.

*What rescue people with no breeder contacts don't see*: There are great breeders. There are people who care about their animals, socialize them, are careful about genetics, and don't over-breed their animals. I've met them at my vet's office, at the county fair, at ARBA shows, and here at RO. Many 4H kids keep their "projects" for their lifespan and take at least decent care of them. Rabbit breeders who breed primarily for show and who sell primarily to show people usually don't affect the shelter population much. But rabbits sold to pet stores or advertised in papers as pets, etc., do.

I do take offense at a comment in the Spaniel article. It said most shelter animals are there due to behavioral or other problems that the owners can't deal with. This is a LIE. The vast majority of animals in a city shelter/humane society are there for the following reasons: moving and can't take animal, moving to nursing home, found as a stray, can't afford (my town had a ton of layoffs), kids aren't caring for it (especially rabbits and little critters), allergies, and drumroll please... we just don't feel like having it any more. And FYI, when cats are brought in for peeing out of the litterbox, they are usually found to have a UTI, are treated, and then are adoptable.

Not to mention that the idea that domestic cats aren't overpopulated is ridiculous. Even Siamese and Persians are fairly common or even found as strays. Try cleaning up a stray Persian! Walk into any shelter that accepts strays at any time of the year. See how many are shoved in the back waiting for the displayed animals to be adopted so they have a visible cage to move into. See how many are euthanized. Now go back during kitten season and watch the adult cat survival rate plummet.


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## naturestee (Feb 21, 2011)

I have never personally heard of a rescue procuring a rabbit from a breeder for someone to adopt. I have heard of them directing someone to a breeder. What is more common is for a rescue to keep an eye open for rabbits of a requested breed or color. I volunteer with Soulmate Rabbit Rescue, and we do this. We sometimes take in rabbits from high-kill shelters in Chicago and it is surprisingly easy to find various breeds there, and with good temperaments too.


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## Violet Crumbles (Feb 21, 2011)

*naturestee wrote: *


> I do take offense at a comment in the Spaniel article.......
> 
> The vast majority of animals in a city shelter/humane society are there for the following reasons: moving and can't take animal, moving to nursing home, found as a stray, can't afford (my town had a ton of layoffs), kids aren't caring for it (especially rabbits and little critters), allergies, and drumroll please... we just don't feel like having it any more. And FYI, when cats are brought in for peeing out of the litterbox, they are usually found to have a UTI, are treated, and then are adoptable.


All that would fall under the category of "other problems that the owners can't deal with". We'd see the same thing at our shelter. Very, very sad.  

When I was there, it was sad to see how many people turned over their pets for financial reasons - even dogs they'd had for years but now had medical problems in their old age. I remember it making me angry but how could I judge knowing that so many of my neighbors were loosing their homes and struggling to feed their families, due to the economy. Very sad.


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## Sweetie (Feb 21, 2011)

I like to add another thing: some rabbits do like being picked up and others do not. It is all in their personality. My ND will tolerate being held and cuddled only for a few minutes, but my Lionhead doe loves being cuddled and held.

About the breeders, I have had one bad experience with a breeder. She was not completely honest with me about her rabbit that I was getting from her. But I would not say that all rabbit breeders are dishonest. You just have to use your best judgments with all kinds of breeders, shelters and rescues.


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## Violet Crumbles (Feb 21, 2011)

In the show world, I see strong tendencies for super social rabbits that love to be picked up and be in-your-face-friendly. But you're right. There are individual rabbits who don't like it or freak. I've have 2 that did not like handling born in my barn.

Sometimes, you just don't know what to expect. I mean, pfft, who here has a climber? Or several?! Being that they are ground animals, who knew rabbits love to climb? LOL


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## RandomWiktor (Feb 21, 2011)

> I do take offense at a comment in the Spaniel article. It said most shelter animals are there due to behavioral or other problems that the owners can't deal with. This is a LIE. The vast majority of animals in a city shelter/humane society are there for the following reasons: moving and can't take animal, moving to nursing home, found as a stray, can't afford (my town had a ton of layoffs), kids aren't caring for it (especially rabbits and little critters), allergies, and drumroll please... we just don't feel like having it any more. And FYI, when cats are brought in for peeing out of the litterbox, they are usually found to have a UTI, are treated, and then are adoptable.



Yes, this. Articles like that spaniel article bother me specifically because it relies onreader ignoranceand, because it is written with such bias, is essentially implying to readers that you *must* buy a dog from a breeder if you don't want a sickly, ill-tempered animal. It's as bad as shelters that suggest that if you buy a dog from a breeder, it WILL be wracked with horrible genetic health. Like I said, blatantly biased article, and while it has some good ideas, the presentation is just as warped and peppered with falsehoods as an article written by PETA.

Great post overall, naturestree - I absolutely agree that both sides have their "blinders" on. I think it is easier for the human mind to see things in black and white rather than realizing that virtually everything is a grey area. One of my friends likes to say "always is never," meaning that there is rarely a situation where x is always true. Very applicable to this discussion, methinks.

I also agree that whoever said cats are not overpopulated must be on something. More likely, it's no mistake that they pointed out the 80+ million cats in US households, but glossed over the estimated 40-60 million _feral_ cats in the US that are currently decimating wildlife populations, climbing in ranks as a common rabies vector, and of course, dying painfully after short and deprived lives. 

If we assume that we can define "overpopulated" as beyond the environment's carrying capacity, and we assume the "environment" to be human homes and the "carrying capacity" to be people able and willing to provide quality life-long care... I'd say our cat population is suffering from more than just regional overpopulation (another issue the article glossed over; my town implemented free cat spay/neuter because combined with ferals we had more cats than we do people once the college kids go home for the summer). I can't really imagine with the euth rates of cats that we could also reasonably accomodate the ever-growing feral population.


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## Nela (Feb 21, 2011)

[*] 
[align=center]âThe language we use to communicate with one another is like a knife. In the hands of a careful and skilled surgeon, a knife can work to do great good. But in the hands of a careless or ignorant person, a knife can cause great harm.â
Exactly as it is with our words.â *
Source Unknown*[/align]​[*] 
[align=center]âTreat people as if they were what they ought to be, and help them to become what they are capable of being.â*
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe *(1749-1832 )
German poet and composer[/align]​



[align=center]__________________________________[/align]
[align=center]I am a bit disappointed in some of the responses I have seen on this thread. I am not going to name anyone, nor directly quote because I don't believe humiliating anyone will help but I am hoping that most people are mature enough to honestly look into what they said and see where they might have gone wrong.[/align]
[align=center]I do not believe anyone should cause another grief because they didn't doas you would have done. I also believe that everyone is entitled to their opinion and are entitled to expressing it - as long as they treat is as it is: an opinion. Opinion is merely an interpretation of what one knows and doesn't know. Opinion is not fact. Opinion is not a "my way or no way" law.[/align]
[align=center]Having been on pet forums for several years now, I am soooooo tired of this common bashing of one another. What exactly do you hope to achieve by bashing someone for his or her beliefs and methods? [/align]
[align=center]Let me tell you one thing: the way I see it,the source of the problem is not one particular group over another. Many rabbit owners, pet store owners, breeders, and even shelters fail the bunnies in their care.[/align]
[align=center]As for overpopulation being a myth or not? In my opinion, even a single bunny being homeless is one too much.[/align]
[align=center]But what can we do?[/align]
[align=center]Well rather than sitting here and bashing each other left and right, how about we try a different method? Let's say... Working together? Is that so crazy to even consider? [/align]
[align=center]Does boycotting anything _really_ help in the immediate? Doesattacking someone _really_make the personbeing attacked see what you are saying as being helpful? Does blaming each other _really_ help the rabbits???[/align]
[align=center]Isn't helping rabbits what we're all here for? Doesn't RO stand for that? Does RO state anywhere on its site that rabbits coming from any one particular place deserve more than others?[/align]
[align=center]In my opinion,every single rabbit out there deserves a good life. It doesn't matter to me where they come from as much as it matters that that bunny has a good life. People get bashed for buying a bunny at the pet store, buying a bunny from a breeder, and sometimes even for adopting. Basically, no matter what you do, you can never please everyone. What matters is that you, yourself, be happy with your decisions. You're the one who has to live with yourself anyway right? [/align]
[align=center]The only real long-term solution I see is real, honest, and proper education of thepopulation. Now, I can hear you guys scoff and say "Thank you Captain Obvious" but let me tell you this...[/align]
[align=center]If it is so obvious, why are we all still fighting each other?There are actual advantages for everyone involved, especially the rabbits.[/align]
[align=center]If you see a pet store selling rabbits, instead of jumping on your high horse right away, and going on a rampage about how there are tons of rabbits in shelters needing homes, why don't you take a moment to actually consider why they do it? It doesn't mean you have to agree, all it means is that you are first willing to even try to see the other's point of view, rather than shoving yours down everyone's throat. Do you know what you can do to help the rabbits in the care of pet stores??? Help. Don't fight, don't insult, don't snob, don't act like you know it all.[/align]
[align=center]HELP.[/align]
[align=center]Reach out that hand of yours and offer to help. Offer to volunteer. Offer to set up playpens. Offer to educate employees. Offer a contact number when they have a bunny with behavioural issues that you can help with. Offer to help train employees catch ailments in time. GENTLY. You want to be a friend, a resource, a person of trust, someone they can actually open up to. Let them feel threatened, let them feel like you would be willing to ruin their reputation at the slightest thing and I promise they will shy away. [/align]
[align=center]It's fine if you do not believe me. But I have done it. It actually surprised me how many pet stores were actually willing to work with me. You'd probably be surprised too. You will come across those that will not be interested in changing their methods. You need to understand that not everyone will actually care. However, there are many that do and putting them all in the same bunch is just plain wrong. Either way, your main focus is to get to the bunnies that you can help.[/align]
[align=center]Shelters? Same thing. How many shelters need to euthanize due to space? How many shelters feed certain things because it's cheap. How about you try and work with them to see if there is a way to reconfigure thespace to offer more? How about you create a play area where you can rotate rabbits in and out so they get playtime if the shelter doesn't already do it? What about looking for donations in terms of food, hay, etc. How about educating certain shelters about not barring certain people just because... Many shelters have a great setup but there are still lots of shelters out there that struggle. Many shelters are mainly cat and dog shelters and really have little knowledge of rabbits. There's lots of help that can be offered there. Most even appreciate somone simply posting ads for them so that they can find homes. Everyone can help some way or other.[/align]
[align=center]As for breeders, there are good ones and there are the bad ones. I think the best people to help with bad breeders are actual proper ones. A breeder is less likely to feel under attack if the other person trying to help is a breeder themself. We've seen it numerous times on RO in fact. How many times have we come across people wanting to breed just because they think it would be fun but have noooo idea about what it actually implies? How about those people that think they'll actually make a profit off breeding?[/align]
[align=center]We won't win them all. In a perfect world, we would but we are far from a perfect world aren't we? However, ooooh what a difference it makes when you win even one place over. Educating and helping anyone and everyone you can - that is whatyou want to do.[/align]
[align=center]I have adopted. I have bought from a pet store. I have purchased from a breeder. Does this make me a bad person? You may think so, but I don't feel it. In my opinion, every bunny needs a home. I cannot offer every single one of them one, so I permit myself to choose a selected few. As for how I choose them, that is my personal choice. In the end, the immediate is the same. A rabbit deserves a home. As for the long-run, if everyone steps up their game, there would be less and less rabbits lost.[/align]
[align=center]The source, the real source of the problem: demand.[/align]
[align=center]No demand? No sales. No sales, no rabbits being dumped. Help those already in the vicious circle and help lighten the demand at the same time. I think we can pretty much all agree on that and, if we all agree on that, we can work hand in hand.[/align]
[align=center]Making someone feel like a bad person and making them feel like they have to be defensive as soon as you come aroundwill never enable you help them or the rabbit in their care.[/align]
[align=center]Remember that.[/align]
[align=center][/align]


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## JadeIcing (Feb 21, 2011)

Very nice post.


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## Tinkerbell Rabbitry (Feb 21, 2011)

No I've heard this from several different places. I should probably clarify this....I mean tries to buy them from breeders....sorry if you thought I was talking about you.


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## JadeIcing (Feb 21, 2011)

Yea I have never heard of that. I know we keep an eye out if one comes into the rescue or we direct them to a rescue that has what they are looking for. We have even done exchanges with rescues. They take one of ours they know they can find a home for and we take one of theirs we know we can adopt out.


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## Violet Crumbles (Feb 21, 2011)

JadeIcing wrote:


> Yea I have never heard of that. I know we keep an eye out if one comes into the rescue or we direct them to a rescue that has what they are looking for. We have even done exchanges with rescues. They take one of ours they know they can find a home for and we take one of theirs we know we can adopt out.



See now _that_ is what one would expect - not this outrageously unethical practice of trying to buy from breeders and passing them off as "rescues" to fill an order for a "client" and then counting it as a "success story" for your rescue. That's nuts and judging from my conversation with the rescue, something this particular rescue continues to do. I kept it together on the phone but I was furious. It fits into the same category as double counting.


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## Tinkerbell Rabbitry (Feb 21, 2011)

I do agree that rescues and breeders should work together, and I am not denying that there are animals being PTS in shelters, because I know there are. I do not agree that rabbits don't like to be picked up, because all of mine like it and some of them get depressed if I don't handle them often. I think the only reason a rabbit would not like being handled is because a)they've have very little/no human contact or b) are not handled correctly. 

To add to my earlier post I've been contacted by what sounds like rescues....but I was never able to figure it out as all the rabbits were gone so I didn't reply.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Feb 21, 2011)

Violet Crumbles wrote:


> In the show world, I see strong tendencies for super social rabbits that love to be picked up and be in-your-face-friendly.



That is what I've noticed too. <3 I think even the breeders who are not intentionally selecting for that kind of personality do have tendencies towards it anyway.

After all, a rabbit with an outgoing personality that will cooperate and show off for the judge will place better than a table hugger who cowers in the back of the judging coop and is hesitant to come out.

But, like you said, I've had 2 or 3 rabbits born here who weren't as fond of that attention. Most of them, though, ignore their food at feeding time and instead, hang out of their door and wait for some lovin'!


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## Tinkerbell Rabbitry (Feb 21, 2011)

So do mine.


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## Violet Crumbles (Feb 21, 2011)

OakRidgeRabbits wrote:


> Violet Crumbles wrote:
> 
> 
> > In the show world, I see strong tendencies for super social rabbits that love to be picked up and be in-your-face-friendly.
> ...


Some people don't know what they're missing.  I know it's not just show rabbits that are that friendly but it seems the environment where the tendency is very strong because temperament is actually bred for. It's logical the most advancement would be seen in an actual breeding program.


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## Myia09 (Feb 21, 2011)

Great post Nela. Although I don't think anyone here is actually fighting or ripping each other heads off, at all. I also don't really see bashing...I see disagreements? But nobody here is being outlandishly horrible. 

I work doing education and rescue. Today I start my 3 week Easter "Crusade" as my boyfriend calls it where I pass out flyers about rabbits and easter, as well as pass out rabbit care pamphlets for feed/pet stores that will take them. (Last year, NO ONE would take them)

I think I get discouraged because although there are people who try and educate; there isn't always a listening audience! 

I am not saying that by buying from a breeder makes you a bad person; my rabbit Pinball (RIP) was from a breeder. Chewy was from a pet store ("Petstore rescue"). But looking back, I do regret it. Especially problems from petstores buying creates, and the conditions they are in!

I would also like to say, when I pass out pamphlets or talk, I never say "Don't buy from a breeder." I DO say "Here are some rescues, rescue first!" Except for the pamphlets I send out to stores..those are just basic care sheets 

And just to poke fun, Goethe is not a person to quote about civilization or people considering he worked for the SS during the Holocaust! LOL
I didn't know that quote by him, but what a hypocritical person!


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## missyscove (Feb 21, 2011)

*Myia09 wrote: *


> And just to poke fun, Goethe is not a person to quote about civilization or people considering he worked for the SS during the Holocaust! LOL
> I didn't know that quote by him, but what a hypocritical person!


Johann Wolfgang von Goethe (the author of _Faust_ among other works) lived from 28 August 1749 â 22 March 1832. He was dead before even the first world war so you must be talking about another Goethe. 


I find this discussion interesting, especially juxtaposed against the journal article, "Humane strategies for controlling feral cat populations," I just read for my feline reproduction class which goes into the difficulties of defining and controlling feral cat populations within the US and only ever mentions a surplus of cats. (if I can find a link that you can access without access to a university library I'll post it. If you really want the text, I could email someone the PDF.)


Edited to add: http://www.avma.org/avmacollections/feral_cats/javma_225_9_1354.pdf

I'm not sure if you can open that link though if you're not going through a university, but it works for me so hopefully you can.


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## Myia09 (Feb 21, 2011)

missyscove wrote:


> *Myia09 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > And just to poke fun, Goethe is not a person to quote about civilization or people considering he worked for the SS during the Holocaust! LOL
> ...



I am toooootally am thinking of another German Goethe. He is a writer as well. That is what I get for not reading the entire name. I don't even know much about the other one; my boyfriend is a German Major and I heard about all the controversies. lol.


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## RandomWiktor (Feb 21, 2011)

Great link, missycove. I see a lot of talk about the feral population but reading something well backed scientifically is a rare gem! I downloaded a copy to my computer so I can use it in future discussions


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## Nela (Feb 22, 2011)

You are right Myia, it wasn't so bad now but I was referring to the general clashing between the groups and the general reaction most people have.I should have specified a bit more on that. Sorry. I did find a few parts a bit harsh though and I was worried about it going any further. Lol you scared me about the Goethe part


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## Kipcha (Feb 22, 2011)

*Myia09 wrote: *


> But if you expect me to believe that a prey animal like to be in picked up and carried, I disagree. Toleration and agreement is different.



I just had to comment on this one particular comment.

I think that rabbits, just like any other animal out there, are individuals and not all of them are the same as the others. I have a rabbit, Babbitty, who loves being picked up and carried around. I mean, I sit on the floor and he will clamber into my lap, jump into my arms and lay down while I walk around the house or go outside. That does not sound like toleration to me, especially considering that I usually don't plan on these little walks, but he's the one setting the schedule.

I just find it to beincorrect to say that ALL prey animals can't enjoy something because it is something that most of them don't like. Prey animals can be different too and enjoy different things, whether it be rabbits, horses, guinea pigs or any other natural prey animal. People say that rabbits are extremely nervous and can't be in crowds of people without being terrified because their prey instinct kicks in. Tell that to all my experienced performers.

On another note, wonderful post there Nela. I have to admit, I'm finding this thread to be a rather fascinating read!


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## Violet Crumbles (Feb 22, 2011)

*Kipcha wrote: *


> *Myia09 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > But if you expect me to believe that a prey animal like to be in picked up and carried, I disagree. Toleration and agreement is different.
> ...


"They're prey animals so they are just a certain way" is true only to a certain extent but then it gets to be an excuse for poor behavior and/or bad handling. 

*Hails Caesar Millan* 

Ever hear people make excuses for their dogs because of what they are? "Dogs are predators so of course, she's going to go after your cat/chicken/rabbit/child. You need to keep a closer eye on your cat/chicken/rabbit/child!". Keep in mind that these are domestic animals we are talking about here. A good deal of our rabbits' behavior is a direct reflection of our own behavior.

I drove into town to do a brief consult/training for a friend today. Her rabbit, who has it's own cage and has free reign in the house and backyard, was biting when held, showing aggression in her cage by growling and lunging, not wanting to be picked up, and squirrel-y in general. Having taken to feeding her rabbit with oven mitts on, the woman was understandably at the end of her rope.

By observing, talking, and changing just a few *minor* things in her handling technique, the owner noted a marked change in her rabbit today. The rabbit was sweet, gentle, other than grunting once did not show aggression, and enjoyed the lovin' she got. When we went over how to "pick up" her rabbit, and then tried it, the owner remarked that she could actually _feel her rabbit relax_. That is what I like to hear. 

The rabbit owner is not new to animals. It's not like she doesn't know anything about rabbit basics and then some. Her rabbit is not a show rabbit that was bred for temperament or ease of being handled. It is very Heinz 57 and the result of an accidental breeding. Even so, and regardless of her past, evidenced by the fact that it went from a tense state to a relaxed one when picked up, it is clear that this rabbit now _likes_ to be picked up as of today at 1pm. lol

That is an example of a random rabbit but this is how they all are (barring the very odd one) if handled properly and often. You just gotta train the human.


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## Nela (Feb 23, 2011)

Every rabbit is different. Each rabbit has a different experience, different background, personality, etc. I think many factors affect whether a bunny enjoys being picked up or not. Wiggles used to ask to be picked up. She used to love being cradled. She had been abused and was terrified of human contact for a good while but then the opposite happened as I worked with her. I guess she just felt safe in my arms. She used to scratch at my legs to be pickedup... Now I have Maybelle who hates being picked up normally. She's just started to enjoy it now. Smores... No, he's not a bunny that enjoys being picked up. He's as friendly as can be but he hates being picked up. 

The person handling them also makes a big difference. If you hesitate and aren't confident when holding them, more than likely, the bunny will feel it and not enjoy the experience as well. 

Personally, I try not to pick up bunnies so much and prefer to sit with them. (Okay my allergies also help with me not handling them on me as much ) However, I make it a point that all my rabbits get used to being picked up. I don't care so much if they like it or not but if, for whatever reason, an emergency happens and I NEED to pick him/her up then I want to know that I can. 

It's not natural for a rabbit to eat meat but then again we have rabbits around RO that love to eat it and cause their owners grief when they are scolded over it. It's not necessarily natural for a rabbit to lie on its back out in the open and yet we see that happening too. Lol. I just think it's important to remember that like most pets, they have their quirks and where you might not expect one to do something or enjoy something, you still might catch one that does. 

It's not the first time a rabbit would have acted out of character We have such goofballs :biggrin2:


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## Sweetie (Feb 24, 2011)

I agree with you Nela!


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## TinysMom (Feb 24, 2011)

*Nela wrote: *


> It's not the first time a rabbit would have acted out of character We have such goofballs :biggrin2:


I just have to share a story about our 6 year old Polish doe (maybe 2 pounds or so?) named Angel.

We've had to start keeping her locked up and not letting her have 'playtime unless we're around (sometimes she'd get to play for 48 hours or so).

Why?

Well - while she might run away from the holland lops when they're playing....or be a bit nervous around the flemish girls...

she'd also started ATTACKING our 35+ pound border collie named Millie. Angel would lunge at her and nip at her and literally chase her around the house. If Millie got put out in the yard - Angel would sit at the fence and keep lunging at it to threaten Millie if she came near.

However Angel also avoids Sasha, the German Shepherd mix.

It just amazes me how different rabbits are....


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## Nela (Feb 24, 2011)

Lol oops... Poor Millie. :expressionless"Angel" huh? LOL. :winkShe just HAD to prove you wrong and you know it


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