# Ronnie has head tilt



## Little Bay Poo (Oct 15, 2008)

Chris called me this morning to let me know that Ronnie isn't doing well. I've been so busy lately and have only been able to see the bunnies twice this past week, so I didn't see any warning signs of Ronnie's condition. According to Chris, Ronnie wasn't like this last night, and the tilt just happened today. I was at the apartment on Monday and I didn't notice anything wrong with him. I'm at the apartment right now, and it's not looking good.

Ronnie's head is pretty severely tilted and he keeps twitching his eyelid. He has a vet appointment in 2 hours. I can say that from what Chris was telling me on the phone, it didn't sound too bad, but when I got here and saw Ronnie...he's a pretty sorry sight. 

Ronnie is still eating hay, and a few pellets if put in front of his face. He's drinking a lot of water and pooping normally. He is loafed against the back corner of his cage with his head tilted and close to the floor. Ronnie is 3 and a half years old.

I'm not sure what could have caused the head tilt. His food and hay are both from the same batch that we've been using for a while, and Billy seems to be doing fine. We are both afraid to touch Billy without washing our hands for fear that this is contagious, but Chris said that he did pet Billy once earlier today after petting Ronnie.

I'll go take a picture of him (even though I'd hate to remember him like this) and post it in a few minutes. I hate to see him suffering like this. Will update after the vet visit later today as well.

Robin


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## TinysMom (Oct 15, 2008)

I'm sure you already know that both Alicia (JadeIcing) and I have head tilt bunnies - and they can live good lives even with head tilt. I say this to say - Do NOT let a vet convince you to put him down. He can even overcome this....Pet_Bunny's Pebbles has also had head tilt.

I'd definitely ask the vet to look deep inside the ears for any signs of infection as that is a common cause of head tilt. Of course- there are other causes too.

Anyway - I guess what I am trying to say is - "don't freak out"....this is manageable and can be dealt with. Depending upon the cause, it is even possible to have a full recovery.

Here is a picture of one of my head-tilters....Minnie....







and another one that shows her tilt better...when she's resting..






She has a full life here in spite of her tilt - she loves to run and play and have a good time.


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## Little Bay Poo (Oct 15, 2008)

Thanks Peg. To be honest, I didn't even know that a vet would suggest to put a head tilted bunny down, so it's good to be prepared for that just in case. I would definitely be against that option, and be perfectly fine with taking care of a tilted bunny. I guess it just scares me to see him looking like this, and reading things that suggest that they have little chance of survival after being tilted.

I was petting Ronnie for about 10 minutes...it seemed like the only time that he was truly calm. He is resting now but has periods where he tries to get up and walk around and goes in circles. He tried to get up and walk around his cage only to fall on his side. His balance is really off. I took a few pictures of him to show how badly he is tilted:













Even when he is resting he continues to scan with his eye. I filled his food bowl to make it easier for him to access his pellets and put a handful of hay on the floor for him. I'm not sure what to do about the water...I don't know if he can access the bottle by himself, but I'm afraid to put in a bowl because I don't want him to trip and fall in the bowl and get himself all wet. 

Robin


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## TinysMom (Oct 15, 2008)

You may want to talk to your vet about this - and once again - I would really encourage your vet to do a culture or check for ear infection - although it can be many other things.

BUT...what you may want to ask him - is if it is ok to use Bonine (human medication for car sickness) with Ronnie.

I use it all the time with my head tilt bunnies - I think Alicia uses it with Ringo. I crush it up and put it in some baby food and give it to mine that way (or just crush it and add some water and syringe it into them).

I have used 1 tablet twice a day when they're really bad - I think Alicia might use 1/2 tablet twice a day - not sure.

Randy (ra7751) told me about using Bonine....

I know he looks bad to you - but from his photo - he's not tilted nearly as bad as I thought he would be. And getting him to the vet so quickly...means he has a much better chance of recovery.

We have one little buck - who had head tilt (his name is Ziggy) - he had it for about 3 or 4 days and was on shots and it just went away after about the fourth or fifth day....and to look at him now - you'd never know he had it...unless he's really really tired - then he might tilt his head a bit.

I'll be watching the thread to see what your vet says! 

By the way - when I had my first head-tilt bunny - a vet told me, "It's best to just put him down so he won't suffer..".

That's why I said what I did.


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## tonyshuman (Oct 15, 2008)

Oh dear, not Ronnie! I hope it's just an ear infection and your vet can get him some strong antibiotics to clear it up quickly. Maybe he just caught a cold due to some stress in the environment. Bunnies often have pasturella and other bugs living dormant in them, and if they get stressed, their immune system can't keep it under control and they get sick from it. It could be anything from a change in the weather, to molting, to not seeing his mommy as much that stressed him out. I'm glad you noticed it soon, and I hope your vet can help! 


As for water, I would also be worried about having him get wet with a bowl because he's already sick and getting wet could make him sicker. Can you put the bottle right by where he likes to sit and put it closer to the ground so he doesn't have to stand up to get it?

ray:ray:ray:ray:for you, Chris, and your adorable crew.


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## Maureen Las (Oct 15, 2008)

You've already got a lot of experienced advice ..
I personally have not dealt with head tilt but I doknow that most of the vets here would want to euthanize the bun and would have little knowledge of treatment. 

It sounds like he is experiencing nystagmus accompanied by dizziness . This is why he loses his balance. This is a very uncomforable situation for a bun sort of like vertigo in a person..the whole world just whirling around. I hope your vet prescribes the type of drug that Peg suggested..I think that antivert is also used. 

I will give you the links on head-tilt but you can get a lot of help right here with those that have tilted rabbits

Hope the visit goes well


http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=11840&forum_id=10


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## Bo B Bunny (Oct 15, 2008)

Oh no 

ray:

Let us know what you find out...... this is so sad!


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## NZminilops (Oct 15, 2008)

I don't have any medical advice, just wanted to say I'm thinking of Ronnie and I'm sending him good vibes and hugs :hug:.

I was stunned when I saw this, must be very heart breaking for you, poor little Ronster Monster :cry4:.


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## NorthernAutumn (Oct 15, 2008)

I hope Ronnie recovers quickly... such a sweetheart.. Best wishes to you and Ronnie:hug:


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## naturestee (Oct 15, 2008)

ray: Poor Ronnie, and poor you! :hug:

Please let us know what your vet says and whether he's comfortable treating for head tilt. A number of us can probably provide our vets' info for him to contact about treatment and care.

For now, do you have another carpet or blanket to put in the cage? It might keep him more comfortable to have soft stuff in case he rolls or falls.

It's great that he's still eating and pooping!


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## Little Bay Poo (Oct 15, 2008)

Thank you everyone for your prayers, thoughts, well wishes, and advice 

Ronnie is back from the vet. They took a few cultures and will be testing for E. Cunniculi and Pasteurella. The vet gave us the following medicines to administer orally by syringe:

Meloxicam 0.1 cc once a day
Meclizine 0.2 cc twice a day
Panacur 0.2cc once a day
I believe one of the above three medications is for the dizziness, I'm not sure what the other two are for. In addition we are to give Ronnie a subcutaneous shot of 0.12 cc of Pen G once per day for 7 days...stop for 3 days...again once a day for 7 days. 

We've just finished giving him the syringe meds, and he got his first shot at the vets today so we won't have to do that until tomorrow. 

The vet seemed to think that whatever Ronnie has, he has carried for a long time and may have gotten from his days at the breeders. He may have been stressed recently which caused the head tilt to appear. Until they do the tests, however, they will not know the cause of the tilt. 

The vet also says that Billy was most likely exposed to whatever Ronnie had back when we first got Ronnie, but that Billy's immune system is in good enough shape to not show symptoms. So Billy is alright, and Ronnie is showing these symptoms because his immune system isn't as strong right now. 

I've replaced all of Ronnie's old cage carpet with new carpet squares that we just bought at Kmart. Ronnie found the one spot in his cage that was not covered in carpet and decided to lounge there! When he gets up he moves around in circles, but he is able to navigate to his water bottle and drink normally. Hopefully when the medications kick in he won't feel so dizzy and will be able to eat something.

Will update again as necessary.

Robin


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## LuvaBun (Oct 15, 2008)

Oh, poor Ronnie. Hoping things improve

Jan


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## myheart (Oct 15, 2008)

Sending prayers for a full and speedy recovery....

ray:

myheart


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## RexyRex (Oct 15, 2008)

Oh no......I'll be praying for you both ray:


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## naturestee (Oct 15, 2008)

Meclizine is for dizzyness, Metacam is for pain, Panacur is to treat EC. I'd call and ask about antibiotics though as an infection is very likely. Otherwise, looks good!


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## Little Bay Poo (Oct 15, 2008)

*naturestee wrote: *


> Meclizine is for dizzyness, Metacam is for pain, Panacur is to treat EC. I'd call and ask about antibiotics though as an infection is very likely. Otherwise, looks good!


We have gotten Pen G to give him once a day, is that an antibiotic? I think the Panacur might actually be for de-worming...I remember the vet saying something about that. So it looks like the three syringe meds are more to make him comfortable and a precaution with de-worming, while the Pen G is the actual treatment.

Thinking about mixing a pellet slurry and trying to feed him that with one of the larger syringes we bought in the baby section. The vet didn't say much about force feeding him...only that we should take him back if he doesn't eat. I've come across threads where people mention Critical Care, but I'm not sure what that is or how I would get it.


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## Maureen Las (Oct 15, 2008)

Critical care is a totally nutritious supplemental feeding for a sick bun. You can syringe it or Sometumes the buns eats it on his own. it can be obtained by calling the oxbow 1-800 number but cannot be ordered on-line. 

http://www.oxbowhay.com/link.sp?page=CriticalCare

I am sort of curious about the use of penicillin G on an off 3 days thenon again basis. If it is procaine usually is given every day..if it is bicillin usually every other day

might want to ask your vet why off 3 day??
Hope Ronnie improves with all your care


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## Luvr of Wabbits and Polar Bears (Oct 15, 2008)

Oh no not another case of the Head-Tilt. I also have one of those Head-TIlt guys and Oct 11 was his 1 year since and he's fine.
I hopeing for a full recovery.

Rebecca, Fluffy and Monsters


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## tonyshuman (Oct 15, 2008)

A couple of things: it sounds like your vet has all the bases covered. Pen G is an antibiotic. Panacur was developed to deworm dogs, horses, etc, but in general it's just an antiparasitic drug. EC is a parasite, actually a protozoan, so Panacur can treat it. Ivermectin is also given for EC. 

Critical care can be found at some specialty/boutique pet stores, although it's usually only available through a vet and Oxbow's website. Other things you might want to feed him are canned pumpkin, or if you can't find that, pumpkins are in season and you can just roast it in the oven. It's really quite easy and makes your house smell great. It's a good, mushy, wet source of fiber. Some people give rabbits Nutrical (which is made for dogs and cats) to keep them eating when they're not feeling well. It's a liquid high-calorie food that comes in a tube and may help him get energy. Make sure you get a rabbit-friendly flavor, not liver!

Finally, since he was looking for the only non-carpeted area of his cage, maybe he's too warm? I'd feel his ears to make sure that he's not too warm. Just a precaution, but you never know, sometimes the things we do to make our pets more comfortable have the opposite effect!

good luck and healing wishes--


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## 12354somebunny (Oct 15, 2008)

I just saw this thread!

Poor Ronnie.. get well soon, ok? We're sending lots of prayers and good vibes your way ray:ray:ray:ray:


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## Little Bay Poo (Oct 15, 2008)

Thanks again for all of the positive vibes and suggestions. :hearts

One more quick update for tonight. Ronnie wasn't eating his pellets and was only eating limited hay, but was drinking his water fine. He still loves his oatmeal but I only gave him a few small pieces just to make sure he would still take a treat. As a precaution we picked up some Critical Care from the vet tonight and gave Ronnie the amount they prescribed. 

I'm so glad that Ronnie is a patient and calm bunny. He's always been very easy to handle and is taking the whole thing like a champ. Syringe feeding has been a breeze. Although he's tilty and disoriented, Ronnie's got a good fighting spirit. He doesn't seem too depressed or distraught and I think he enjoys getting the extra attention


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## JadeIcing (Oct 15, 2008)

Great advice and treatment. I would really try to pin point exactly what is causing it. That wayyou know what you are fighting. EC or Pasteruella both have their pit fallsbut ECmore so. EC there are other things you would have to lookfor.


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## kherrmann3 (Oct 15, 2008)

Oh, no! Poor Ronnie (and you!).

We're all wishing you the best! :hug:ray:


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## slavetoabunny (Oct 16, 2008)

I order my critical care online from here:

http://www.rabbitshop.com/apbacrca.html

It's much, much less expensive that buying it at the vet. Be sure and get the apple banana flavor - the buns love it.


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## ChandieLee (Oct 16, 2008)

ray:

Chandra


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## Little Bay Poo (Oct 16, 2008)

*slavetoabunny wrote: *


> I order my critical care online from here:
> 
> http://www.rabbitshop.com/apbacrca.html
> 
> It's much, much less expensive that buying it at the vet. Be sure and get the apple banana flavor - the buns love it.



The vet tech ended up giving us the Critical Care for free (probably because they charged us an arm and a leg for the earlier appointment). They had printed out an estimate for $500 - $700 for the examination, tests, meds, and potential hospital stay...Chris told them no way and they reduced it to $270 for the essential stuff. Things are really expensive here in Fairfax, but the Eastern Exotic Veterinary Center seemed to be really knowledgeable about rabbits.

Chris checked on Ronnie this morning and gave him his Meclizine and Critical Care. He says that Ronnie is still tilty, but he has more spunk in him today and it was more difficult to pick him up and administer the meds. He said it looks like he tried to nibble on some food and that he is moving around his cage more easily than before. I will update again later when I go over to the apartment to help with the three syringe meds and the shot of Pen G. I hope the shot goes ok...I really don't like the sight of needles but Chris volunteered to do that part while I hold Ronnie still :?


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## tonyshuman (Oct 16, 2008)

best of luck to you guys--your story makes me think hard about getting pet insurance. although my guys haven't really been sick before, it seems you never know when something like this will happen. continued good vibes--i've been thinking about you guys and sweet little ronnie whenever i see benjamin, who's his spitting image. ray:


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## Little Bay Poo (Oct 16, 2008)

Ronnie is doing better today. His tilt has gone down a bit from yesterday and he has a lot more control and balance. Ronnie's eye has also stopped twitching. I couldn't get any really good pictures because Ronnie would move around too fast for the camera, so I had to take a few of him loafing through the cage bars:













Today, Ronnie was a lot more resistant to getting his medications than he was yesterday. While we were prepping the meds, I left Ronnie's cage door open thinking he was too sick to even attempt to come out. I went in the other room for a minute and came back to find that Ronnie had not only come out of his cage, but he was running around! Here's some video. 










After we gave him the meds we put him back in his cage to rest. Ronnie really wants to come out of his cage again, but I'm not sure that it would be a good idea to have a drugged up bunny running around. I don't want him to accidentally hurt himself so we're making him stay in the cage as a precaution. More updates tomorrow.

Robin


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## myheart (Oct 16, 2008)

Wow!!! Lil' Ronnie is doing so well. It is difficult to tell his head is tilted in the videos. You must be proud of your little man making such progress already!! Prayers for continued healing. I do hope he can get rid of it completely.

ray:

myheart


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## TinysMom (Oct 16, 2008)

I have found that the more exercise my head tilt bunnies get (assuming they are not rolling)- the better off they are and the faster they get better.

I'm not saying that is medically correct - just from my personal experience..


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## JadeIcing (Oct 16, 2008)

*TinysMom wrote: *


> I have found that the more exercise my head tilt bunnies get (assuming they are not rolling)- the better off they are and the faster they get better.
> 
> I'm not saying that is medically correct - just from my personal experience..


I second this. Ringo and Apple both do better with more out time. An now I will let Ringo out.


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## Little Bay Poo (Oct 16, 2008)

Yeah, I wasn't too sure about the exercise thing because I didn't know what kind of a state Ronnie would be in from the medications and his tilt. I was hoping that someone would step in to shed some light on that so thank you to both Peg and Alicia. I can't let him out tonight because I'm not at the apartment right now, but will definitely let him have supervised run time tomorrow when I go back. I'm sure he will be really excited about coming out to play :biggrin2:


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## 12354somebunny (Oct 16, 2008)

Oh, I'm so glad to see that Ronnie's head is not as tilted as before! You go, Ronnie!! We'll keep praying for you to heal completely!


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## kherrmann3 (Oct 16, 2008)

Hooray for Ronnie's progress!  We still wish you the best! ray:


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## NorthernAutumn (Oct 17, 2008)

That's a marked improvement over the last pics!

Keep at it, Ronnie! You're such a little trooper!et: <-me petting Ronnie's ears from a distance...)


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## ra7751 (Oct 17, 2008)

Hi All,

Haven't posted in quite a while due to the tremendous number of wildlife rescues but I signed in tonight and saw this thread. EC and head tilt are near and dear to me since my beloved Sabrina was lost due to complications from EC and we have several rabbits here with tilt. It is something I have a lot of experience with.

A few comments about the treatment here. Most cases of tilt in domestic rabbits are caused by inner and/or middle ear bacterialinfections. Contrary to popular belief, EC does not cause head tilt. The tilt may be secondary to EC since the EC will overwhelm the immune system and allow opportunistic bacteria to invade. The only true way to diagnose EC is post mortem and that isn't a really good thing. The blood titers are very much open to interpretation. Meloxicam is very good at helping with swelling and is a moderate analgesic....but there is always a trade off. It is very stressful on the liver and kidneys when used long term. It is vitally important to supplement hydration when using NSAIDs for more than three days. Meclizine is not effective in all rabbits....have no idea why it helps some and not others but it's always worth a shot. I have started using valium to sedate them during the really bad times. Panacur is a wormer but is pretty much ineffective against EC despite the popular belief. It can't penetrate the blood/brain barrier but amazingly the EC can. When panacur is used in an attempt to treat EC, it should be dosed everyday (and we have dosed for 60 consecutive days) just on the faint hope that some mightget thru the barrier. We have used iton several rabbits with no real noted positive effect. Ivermectin is totally ineffective against EC. If ivermectin helps with head tilt, the problem was mites to begin with. The most promising treatment for EC is a horse drug called Marquis.

I have had the best success in treating tilt related toconfirmed (by culture) bacterial infectionby using a combination of Pen G and zithromax....same as for abscesses. I have recently been using a drug just approved for use in the US....Convenia. It is a one time sub-q injection. It's a cephalosporin and is chemically related to penicillin. I have used in in domestic rabbits, cottontails, fox squirrels and gray squirrels so far...with success. Another good choice is Chloramphenicol but it has some issues relating to just handling the drug for a very small amount of people.

Head tilt is one of the most misunderstood of rabbit ailments. Many of the reference manuals used by vets (and what do you think they are doing when they say they will be right back?) contain old and outdated information. To get good resolution,the tiltmust be attacked by the right means from several different directions. We have treated cases of tilt for up to seven months before it resolved...and sometimes it doesn't....and we have some of those here too. I would suggest a somewhat more aggressive line of treatment. Good luck.

Randy


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## Maureen Las (Oct 17, 2008)

OMG Randy just appeared on the scene to help Ronnie ..just like superman :wave2

:woohooGlad to see you Randy, we miss you terribly but we do understand that the little wild critters need your attention.....


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## Little Bay Poo (Oct 17, 2008)

Thanks so much for your input Randy. I will have to ask about these options during Ronnie's follow up visit at the vets. One thing that worries me is what you've said here:*

ra7751 wrote: *


> Meloxicam is very good at helping with swelling and is a moderate analgesic....but there is always a trade off. It is very stressful on the liver and kidneys when used long term. It is vitally important to supplement hydration when using NSAIDs for more than three days.


I can't access the prescription at the moment, but I believe the Meloxicam was prescribed for one week. Ronnie has been drinking a lot more water since being on the medications, but I am confused about what you mean by supplementing hydration. Am I supposed to start giving him something like Pedialyte? Also, is 7 days too long to administer Meloxicam and should we stop Meloxicam after 3 days? 

I understand that you are really busy and may not be able to get back here to answer these questions. I really do appreciate all of your input and will be printing out your post to have on file and to discuss other treatment options with the vet. We will be going back in one week for a follow up appointment, and perhaps talking to them earlier to discuss the results of the cultures. Thanks again.

Robin


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## mouse_chalk (Oct 17, 2008)

Oh my gosh, I've just seen this! 

Poor Ronnie! I'm so sorry. I'm glad to hear he's doing a little better- his tilt looks a lot better in the second set of pictures you posted.

I hope he continues to improve- I'll be thinking of you guys :hug:


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## tonyshuman (Oct 17, 2008)

I'm so glad Randy showed up! I was just saying what I had heard before, and obviously it was the same wrong stuff that the old school vets know. I hope you can go to your vet with this new info and use it to help with treatment. Did they do a culture at the vet? I would also personally be most inclined to believe it's bacterial, but that's also because I want him to be able to heal quickly!

Best of luck!ray:


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## Maureen Las (Oct 17, 2008)

Supplemental fluids would be subqutaneous injection of fluids which can be done at home. It is not that hard to do and you can ask your vet if you could have some bags of lactated ringers solution and an IV set-up and needles. We have a video in the library of someone giving subqutaneous iv fluids.

In the meantime see if he can take pedialyte out of the syringe. I am giving beau the flavored kind because he loves it and drink enormous amounts at one time right out of the syringe 
Your vet is prescribing the penicillin so that's good.. randy always believes in using a combo of drugsYou can bring this up to your vet when you go. 
it is often difficult to get the vet to do exactly what Randy and his team does at sabrina's. They are working purely with exotics all the time whereas a lot of vets treat other domestics. 

I am giving beau only one antibiotic right now and he probably should be on 2 but my new vet won't do it. 
Just do what you are able to do. Right now the treatment protocol is really quite good.


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## NZminilops (Oct 17, 2008)

Just popped in to say that I hope Ronnie continues to improve, I still can't believe this happened to him . He's such an awesome bunny and I hate seeing him not well.

Every time I see Sakura I think of Ronnie, she's even got as funny little moutly line thing going on above her nose just like Ronnie now, so I think she's thinking of him too .

Warm fuzzy happy thoughts coming your way ink iris:


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## Little Bay Poo (Oct 18, 2008)

Today has been an interesting day. The Pen G exploded backwards out of the needle and landed on me, Chris, and Ronnie. The vet tech had no idea why the needle malfunctioned like that, but we went back to re-learn the injection process. I actually wasn't there the first vet visit so this was my first time learning. Chris is allergic to Penicillin, and the vet tech was upset with him for administering Penicillin shots while being allergic to it. I'll be doing the shots from now on. 

Ronnie was cleaned off so as not to ingest the Pen G, and Chris didn't have any allergic reactions so we're all ok. The vet tech was pleased with Ronnie's ability to move around and regain his balance so quickly upon being placed back into the carrier.

Ronnie is doing alright, but he's a little depressed. His head is still tilted to the degree it was yesterday, but he can jump in and out of his cage and run around the room no problem. The one time that he always falls over is when he does that rabbit shake (you know the kind that dogs do when they are wet?). Ronnie shakes off after we are done administering meds and handling him, and he loses balance every time and falls. Other than that he keeps upright 99% of the time. 

Ronnie isn't eating much on his own so we are giving him Critical Care. He's maintaining his weight but he looks depressed. Today we put his food in the bowl (filled to the brim for easy access) with a sprinkle of oatmeal on the top and he got excited like he used to. But then when he realized that his head was on crooked and that he had to grab his pellets sideways, he got upset and gave up. He won't take a pellet if I put it under his nose but he will usually take oatmeal. He will eat hay on his own.

We left Ronnie's cage door open for about 9 hours today. He'd come out for about 30 seconds and then go back in to lay down again. I assume he is still disoriented and scared which is why he only came out in 30 second spurts before going back in his cage. Later on in the night he came out for longer periods of time and was running around and looking at me...then loafing outside of his cage like he did when he was well. 

So I guess the gist of it is, physically he's looking pretty good for a tilted bunny, but emotionally he's looking like a very sad bunny. I spent a lot of time petting him today and watching him run around.

I took some pictures which I'll post in a few minutes after I upload them, but I'm pretty sure he's tilted about the same degree.


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## Maureen Las (Oct 18, 2008)

After you watch him for awhile you may be able to figure out a way to prop his food up so that it is in the right position for him to eat easily. This may make a big difference in how he feels about eating.

it sounds like you are taking excellent care of him ..although he does sound a little depressed 
Please make sure that Chris is careful with the penicillin as my dad is allergic also with extreme reactions.


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## Little Bay Poo (Oct 18, 2008)

angieluv, I will have to try that tomorrow with the repositioning of the food bowl. Wednesday night I tried to replace Ronnie's old food bowl with a little dish we bought at the pet store and he peed in it :X. The little dish was so nice and fit the pellets perfectly, as well as being low to the ground for his tilt but I guess Ronnie only likes/understands his old food bowl :?. So it's something I have to work with to fill it to the right level and get it to the right angle.

Here's some pictures from today (Day 3) as well as a video I took today of Ronnie running around. He looks so sad in the pictures, but keep in mind that Ronnie has always had a special talent for looking pathetic . I hope he's not quite as sad as he looks!


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## JadeIcing (Oct 18, 2008)

You could feed more so the pellets are higher up. Slowly increase.


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## TinysMom (Oct 18, 2008)

I've had a severe ear infection off and on for the last couple of weeks. At first it was one ear - this week it turned out to be the other ear.

I think I've learned a lot about how head tilt rabbits feel. I was a bit dizzy and off balance and so I can really feel for their dizziness.

But what surprised me - was how I didn't want to eat or drink. You see - whenever I ate or drank - it HURT. I can't explain it - but as my jaw moved...it made my ear hurt really bad and so I found myself getting dehydrated (thus making the dizziness worse) and feeling hungry - but unable to eat because it hurt so bad. 

I wound up snacking on shortbread cookies (and vanilla wafers) cause they were soft. They also settled my stomach with the super duper antibiotics I was taking.

I say all this to say - I can understand why he's not eating well and I understand now why mine so often have lost weight when they have head tilt. If it is at all related to the ear - I'm betting it is really uncomfortable to eat.

I have found that Wedge LOVES Romaine lettuce - and I soak it in water before he gets it. He also loves banana and he will eat that too. (He'll also eat oats and his pellets - but its almost like it hurts his head to eat his pellets - not his teeth -but his head...).

Are there any softer veggies that Ronnie is used to - like lettuce or something - that you could use to entice him to eat?

Just a thought....I know I'm going to get some watermelon this weekend for Wedge. He won't get a lot at a time - but it will give him fluids and it is sweet and from past experience I'm learning that will encourage him to eat more.


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## Little Bay Poo (Oct 18, 2008)

Peg, I had never thought about the pain he might be in but it does make sense. I can't even recall a time when I've had an ear infection so I can't relate to what he's going through :?. But it does make sense that it would hurt for him to chew up harder foods...in fact he was grinding his teeth a little bit before he got his pain meds today.

Unfortunately both Billy and Ronnie are the pickiest eaters I have ever seen. I went through a process of trying fruits and veggies with them and they turned down everything except parsley and celery. It seems as though they hate eating wet foods, and they cringe and turn away if I put moist fruits or veggies in front of them. I think Ronnie is actually MORE picky than Billy is...all of the things you'd think a bunny would like (apple, banana, pumpkin, lettuce, strawberry, tomato, pineapple, etc) he's turned down in the past. 

I guess the one good thing is that he's really easy to syringe feed and he takes down the Critical Care no problem. I will keep the soft foods thing in mind though, especially if I'm at the grocery store anytime soon. Even if it doesn't work, the way I see it is the more suggestions the better. I'm glad that so many people have stepped in to offer up advice and ideas because a lot of these things just don't cross my mind. 

Robin


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## Little Bay Poo (Oct 18, 2008)

Just wanted to add that if I do find something that he will eat I'll make sure to keep the portion small if he's not used to it. Ronnie's always had a really strong digestive tract but better to be safe than sorry.


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## Maureen Las (Oct 18, 2008)

In the pics he looks really sad (and cute too) 

On the video he looks like he is moving around really good...


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## tonyshuman (Oct 18, 2008)

oh dear. I'm glad he's getting better but I hope he cheers up. Does he have a stuffed friend to spend time with? I know he's a humpy bunny, but maybe he'd like to snuggle up with somebody.

Healing wishes...


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## polly (Oct 18, 2008)

Big hugs and nose rubs for Ronnie poor wee guy he does look a bit sad I have had a couple of my buns go through head tilt and recover. Alfie one of my house buns had it a few weeks ago its funny how it always seems to hit when the seasons are changing!

I find giving excise and plenty of cuddles down on theri level really helps and one thing mine never refuse is a rich tea biscuit if you can get them over there wheetabix is good too I will hold my hands up and say that what is usually a treat they get more of if they arent well. Alfie had 2 sets of injections of an anti inflammotory with an antibiotic injection at the same time and lukily that was enough to sort him out. I hope Ronnie is feelign better soon


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## Little Bay Poo (Oct 19, 2008)

Hi guys, 

I only have time for a quick update tonight. Ronnie is still tilted the same as yesterday, and moving around the same. He's eating his hay and drinking his water but refuses treats, oatmeal, and pellets so we are still feeding him Critical Care. Ronnie was much happier today and spent a lot of time out of his cage loafing and running around. He even started to run circles around my legs again...


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## myheart (Oct 19, 2008)

*Little Bay Poo wrote: *


> ... He even started to run circles around my legs again...



What a trooper!! At least you know he still luvs you! :biggrin2:

Keep getting better lil' guy!!!! 

myheart


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## Maureen Las (Oct 19, 2008)

*Little Bay Poo wrote: *


> Hi guys,
> 
> I only have time for a quick update tonight. Ronnie is still tilted the same as yesterday, and moving around the same. He's eating his hay and drinking his water but refuses treats, oatmeal, and pellets so we are still feeding him Critical Care. Ronnie was much happier today and spent a lot of time out of his cage loafing and running around. He even started to run circles around my legs again...



I hope that he has maybe started eating on his own...:?

otherwise he definitely sounds a little better


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## Elf Mommy (Oct 19, 2008)

Just wanted to let you know that Ronnie is our featured rabbit in the caption contest this week! Hope he's feeling better very very soon!

Minda


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## Little Bay Poo (Oct 20, 2008)

*Elf Mommy wrote: *


> Just wanted to let you know that Ronnie is our featured rabbit in the caption contest this week! Hope he's feeling better very very soon!
> 
> Minda


Aww, thanks! Glad to know that so many are thinking about Ronnie and pulling for him to get better


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## Little Bay Poo (Oct 20, 2008)

Day 5

Ronnie, albeit tilted, is acting a lot more like his bunny self. There are certain things that he doesn't do as much...for example he's started running circles around me again but will only do a few and then will hop off somewhere else. He also doesn't have any interest in humping things at the moment . Ronnie is moving around very well, and almost looks like a normal balanced bunny when running. Chris had a hard time catching him for his meds today! That's a big improvement from day 1 when Ronnie was more or less limp and didn't struggle at all, let alone run away 

In terms of food, Ronnie is eating his hay and drinking water. He even ate a little bit of oatmeal that I sprinkled on top of his pellets today. We are still giving him some Critical Care throughout the day (6 cc morning, afternoon, and night) to make sure that he gets enough calories to keep going strong. He hates the Critical Care more than the Pen G shots and will hide his head in the bunny burrito to try to escape it! Chris and I always start laughing uncontrollably when he does this because he looks so cute...I wish I could get it on video but I don't want to put Ronnie through any more bunny burrito time than he already has. 

We let Ronnie run around the whole apartment today and he looked almost like he did before he got sick. The only thing that gives it away is the slight tilt, but I think it's even a little better today than yesterday. It's so hard to tell though because depending on if he's loafing, sitting, or running, he tilts to different degrees.

That's all I can think of for now...will update again tomorrow night.

Robin


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## Maureen Las (Oct 20, 2008)

not a bad update for the little guy


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## JadeIcing (Oct 20, 2008)

Thought I would mention some bunnies get passed the illness but still have a tilt. It can sometimes go away with time. Than some have a slight tilt just when they are resting. Than some show no signs of a tilt at all.


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## mouse_chalk (Oct 20, 2008)

I'm really glad to hear he's still doing well  I love little Ronnie, and have been thinking of him all weekend hoping he would get better

Chalk got very good at hiding her head like that as well! We'd spend aaages getting her wrapped up, and still, and I'd reach for the syringe, and look back ready to give it and her head would have disappeared. Then to get her head back you'd have to unwrap the towel, and she would seize that oppurtunity to wriggle out and hop away.... :rollseyes

I really hope he continues to improve some more


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## NZminilops (Oct 20, 2008)

I hope he's still doing ok today :hug:.


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## Little Bay Poo (Oct 20, 2008)

Thanks guys 

Alicia, I was actually wondering about permanently tilted rabbits the other day. Specifically, do they have to get injections multiple times a week for the rest of their lives? Meds I can deal with, but I would hate doing the injections forever...

Jen, I think Billy would be a lot like Chalk (actually probably a lot worse than her) with the escape artist thing. That's why I'm so glad that Ronnie is calm and patient. If I see him starting to look like he wants to wander off I just gently push down on his head and he's like "Okay, I'll stay." :biggrin2:

Michelle, Ronnie is doing pretty well today. It's weird because it's not a constant steady improvement...he has some days where he's worse than others. Not that he's bad any of those days...it varies very slightly but I can still say "Oh, he did a little better yesterday than today." Like today he got stressed out from being in a bunny burrito and getting meds, and when he gets stressed he tilts more. As a result he fell over a couple times but regained his footing quickly. If I compare this to yesterday where I didn't see him fall at all, I feel like today was a "bad day." 

I'll do a more formal update later tonight...I have to get back to studying now :grumpy:


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## NZminilops (Oct 21, 2008)

I guess it's like with any major human illness, some days you feel good, other days you feel like crud.

The first bad thing I ever experienced with a rabbit was headtilt, I didn't even have a clue what was going on at all at 14 and my first bun. I knew something was wrong, but my mother insisted the bun just had a sprained neck and would be fine. By the time I got her to a vet and on meds, it was too late (she had a respitory infection as well and a mega high temperature).

It's scary, but I believe you're doing all the right things for Ronnie. I'm thinking about him a lot and really hoping that he stays general on an up curve. Your two rabbits stand out for me a lot on here because they make me think of Sakura, and of course they are just so adorable and full of personality, I feel especially attached to them.

Fingers and toes and paws all crossed for Ronnie and continued improved health .

Michelle


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## Little Bay Poo (Oct 21, 2008)

Day 6

I'm pretty tired right now so it's gonna be a short update. Ronnie is about the same as yesterday. The only difference is that he was a little dizzier / off balance when I was over there because he got stressed out from being given his medications so he tilted more. He rolled right after I let him go from his bunny burrito, but was able to regain composure after I picked him up and righted him. I think he was just dizzy from the stress and being moved around from the table to the floor.

The vet called today and let us know that Ronnie tested positive for both E. Cunniculi and Pasteurella. From what Randy wrote here previously I'm taking this to mean that Ronnie's tilt is caused by the Pasteurella. It sounded like E. Cunniculi is something that's always there and the reason Ronnie tested positive for it is probably because his immune system was poor so he had elevated levels of it.

Now that we know the cause I guess we'll be discussing the possibility of using Zithromax + Pen G when we go back for our follow up appointment. Right now we're just using Pen G injections and the oral medications described before. I'm not sure when the follow up will be just yet (have to work it out with our schedules) but it will be sometime in the next week.

Robin


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## JadeIcing (Oct 21, 2008)

*Little Bay Poo wrote: *


> Thanks guys
> 
> Alicia, I was actually wondering about permanently tilted rabbits the other day. Specifically, do they have to get injections multiple times a week for the rest of their lives? Meds I can deal with, but I would hate doing the injections forever...


Some have the tilt and nothing else they don't need antibiotics anymore. The tilt is just there. People have woken up somtimes a year, two years later and it is just gone.


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## Maureen Las (Oct 21, 2008)

I read somewhere that the muscles in the neck contract and shorten thus causing a permanent tilt with no infection but it is individual for most buns.


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## tonyshuman (Oct 21, 2008)

Benjamin tested positive for EC once. I think the level of the titer is important as to whether or not it's an active case of EC. Very high levels probably = active case. Lower levels probably = dormant, like you said. It is possible that they're elevated due to his stress, but that just means you need to take extra special care of him so that it doesn't become an active case. It sounds like a good reason to try very hard to kick this pasturella in the butt and knock it out of his system. Head tilt is usually not an early sign of EC, like many have said. Maybe you can use this to convince your vet to try a very aggressive pasturella treatment, like the one Randy uses?

Best of luck, and I hope there are more "good days" than "bad days" for you guys.
:hug:


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## pla725 (Oct 21, 2008)

My Smitten has been tested4 times. She tested high3 out of4 times. Turns out she had a bladder infection which caused the titer to register high. Most likelya false positive.

Best way to determine if your rabbit truely has EC is do a series of EC titers over time. I believe the standard is every 3-4 weeks. It takes 7 to 10 days for the results to come back.


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## Little Bay Poo (Oct 22, 2008)

Day 7

No notable changes today. The Pen G prescription that we have says to inject for 7 days, stop for 3, resume for 7, stop for 3 etc. Tomorrow will be the first of the 3 days that we will not be injecting Pen G. I hope it doesn't make Ronnie's tilt get worse.

One thing I noticed about Ronnie is that he puts on a really pathetic face when I come in the room. He will put his head down for pets and give me this look like he's the saddest bunny in the world. Then as soon as I leave the room, I see him running around like a normal bunny! When I come back in he's all sad and "pet me" again. So if I want him to get exercise I actually have to be out of his area or else he mopes and gives me the pathetic bunny look 

Chris said Ronnie ate a lot of hay yesterday. It seems like he's eating lots of hay, drinking lots of water, and will take oats from me prior to taking meds. After we give him medications and a bit of Critical Care he has no interest in treats. We have to go out and buy new pellets soon because it's been a few months and I can tell the pellets don't smell as fresh as they used to. Hopefully this will get Ronnie to start eating his pellets again.

Robin


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## Maureen Las (Oct 22, 2008)

It's positive that he is exercising in the room..even if he waits for you to leave


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## tonyshuman (Oct 22, 2008)

Cheeky little bunny, hamming it up for attention! I hope he feels better soon. I'm sure you're doing a good job taking care of him, keep up the good work! There was a bunny on cuteoverload.com today that looked like Ronnie, so we should get all the blue otter nethies together to cheer for him!

arty0002:arty0002::bunny19arty0002:arty0002:


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## SnowyShiloh (Oct 22, 2008)

For some reason I haven't posted here yet, but I've been reading all the updates! Feel better soon, Ronniekins!

Love,
your #1 fan


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## TinysMom (Oct 23, 2008)

*Little Bay Poo wrote: *


> One thing I noticed about Ronnie is that he puts on a really pathetic face when I come in the room. He will put his head down for pets and give me this look like he's the saddest bunny in the world. Then as soon as I leave the room, I see him running around like a normal bunny! When I come back in he's all sad and "pet me" again. So if I want him to get exercise I actually have to be out of his area or else he mopes and gives me the pathetic bunny look


This is exactly the way Wedge is - only sometimes if I walk in the room he'll flop down like he's not feeling the best. I'll walk out of his line of sight and he'll start to sit up and groom himself - only to flop down if he sees me again.

I think sometimes they like to play us like this for extra treats or attention - or maybe to convince us to not give them a shot. I know Hepburn will whimper like a puppy if he's getting a shot - and its the ONLY time he'll whimper.


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## SnowyShiloh (Oct 23, 2008)

How is Sir Ronnie doing today?


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## Little Bay Poo (Oct 23, 2008)

*SnowyShiloh wrote: *


> How is Sir Ronnie doing today?


I actually didn't go over to the apartment yesterday or today because Ronnie is on a three day break from his Pen G shots and I've been really busy with school work. Chris takes care of both of the bunnies and has been giving Ronnie his oral medications daily. 

Chris said that Ronnie gets feistier every day and becomes more difficult to bunny burrito. When he puts him down on the towel, Ronnie starts kicking his feet until the towel gets all crumpled and has to be flattened out again . When he's in his bunny burrito he hides his head and scoots backwards...yesterday Chris said he almost scooted himself completely out of the towel. 

We placed a new order for Farmer Dave timothy hay and it came in yesterday. I hear both the bunnies like it and Ronnie continues to eat a lot of hay. He also eats his pinch of oats but we are still giving him 6cc of Critical Care twice a day because I'm not sure if he's eating his pellets. I don't blame him...they smell stale and we are going to get a fresh bag either Friday or Saturday. Billy continues to eat the pellets though so I'm not totally sure if a fresh bag will get Ronnie started eating them again because I don't know if freshness is the issue.

Chris said that Ronnie seems more tilted in the mornings when it's cold in his apartment but when he turns up the heat Ronnie's tilt gets better. Ronnie continues to get daily exercise in his play area.

We have a vet appointment this Saturday at 11:30 am to talk about Ronnie's progress. 

Robin


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## Little Bay Poo (Oct 25, 2008)

I went over to check on the bunnies today and spend some time with Ronnie to see how he was doing. The first thing I noticed was that Ronnie had soiled the carpet in his cage with about 4 or 5 reddish brown stains :?. I asked Chris what happened and he said he saw them yesterday but didn't think anything of it :X. We called up the vet and I guess we'll be discussing that tomorrow during our follow up appointment. I read online that Meloxicam can cause blood in urine so we didn't give Ronnie his dose today. Today was his last day of Meloxicam anyways so we just cut it out a day early. Ronnie peed on some newspaper that I laid out for him today and it was the normal yellowish color which gave me some relief. 

Other than the pee thing Ronnie appears to be doing really well. He's still pathetic looking and tilty, but he's got the same amount of energy and is running around like he did before he got sick. The only difference is he doesn't have any interest in humping his stuffed animal anymore, or digging at his newspapers. Ronnie was running a lot of circles around me like he used to, and he also ran up to me every time I came into the room. No rolling episodes or falling. He's been eating loads of hay, drinking water, took oats from my hand, and ate a few pellets. I think the fact that he's not on as many meds (no more Meloxicam and he was off Pen G shots for 3 days) made him feel a lot better. I guess he's kinda druggy other days and doesn't have as much interest in food.

I took my camera over and got some pictures of Ronnie. He came out looking so pathetic! Trust me, he's not that bad...it's just a skill he has to bring out the sympathy 


Looking sad with dried up Critical Care on the corners of his mouth





















He gets more tilty and stressed when in a bunny burrito for meds. I only took this one picture because he looked so sad I couldn't bear to keep him bundled any longer!







After his meds:







On a more positive note, Ronnie really likes the new shipment of hay


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## Luvr of Wabbits and Polar Bears (Oct 25, 2008)

He looks so cute and innocent.


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## kherrmann3 (Oct 25, 2008)

Awww! Hooray for Ronnie doing better! It's great to hear that he's eating and acting more-like-normal than before! Woohoo, little guy!

P.S.: I love the bunny-burrito pic. :laugh:He's so sad... BUT CUTE!


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## JadeIcing (Oct 25, 2008)

Ringo when he is sick tends to ignore his "friend" more. We tend to mix Ringos meds with other stuff because pickinghim up throws him off.


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## Little Bay Poo (Oct 26, 2008)

We took Ronnie in for a follow up appointment at the vets yesterday. Asked a lot of questions and had a few tests run...hopefully I can remember it all for this post.

We had a urine analysis done because I noticed reddish pee stains on the carpet in Ronnie's cage. These came back negative for blood, and the vet assured us that rabbits can have tinted urine especially if they are on medications or eating new things. She explained that blood in urine would look like a bullseye, with a big red stain in the middle dissipating out towards the ends. She also said blood in urine might come out in little clots. We definitely didn't see that. Ronnie's was just reddish brown stains, all uniform in color with no clots. So his pee is fine, and he's been peeing yellow ever since that one incident.

Ronnie had been off the Pen G shots for 3 days by the time we took him for the follow up appointment, so his tilt was really bad and he was having rolling episodes. We had to roll up some hand towels and squish him in between those in his carrier so he couldn't roll over. The vet said he has to be off Pen G for 3 days after his 7 days worth of shots...that's just the way the prescription works. I asked her why some people do Pen G shots every other day and we are doing on 7 off 3. She got really confused when I asked this and said the only prescription she had ever heard of was on for 7 days and off for 3.

The vet prescribed us Baytril to give .4 cc twice a day every day to Ronnie so that when he comes off the Pen G for 3 days he will still have the Baytril in his system and hopefully not relapse so bad. I told her I heard that Baytril was totally ineffective and I think she got offended! She said that she has seen results with Baytril, so I said okay and we agreed to that prescription.

I also asked the vet about using Zithromax in combination with Pen G, and she said they'd have to special order Zithromax and she doesn't really see the use in it. She said if the Baytril doesn't work well with Ronnie she doesn't mind ordering the Zithromax in the future...but she wanted to try the Baytril + Pen G combo first.

I asked if we should expect Billy to get head tilt in the future since he's been exposed to Ronnie and the vet explained that it doesn't mean Billy will definitely get it. She said that pretty much all rabbits are exposed to this stuff but only some come down with head tilt. She said that some rabbits have antibodies against it so they never come down with tilt.

Ronnie's weight went down very slightly so we were instructed to feed more Critical Care. He's still not too interested in pellets but will gobble down hay, oats, and water. Other than that he checked out fine.

After Ronnie got his Pen G shot and Meclizine for the day he was much improved. He hasn't had any rolling episodes since and still keeps his balance well. Ronnie tilts to so many different degrees within a 1 minute span of time depending on what he's doing or looking at so I can't tell if his head is any better or not. I think it's about the same though, and when he gets really stressed out before meds he tilts to 9 o'clock.

That's all I can think of for now. If I remember anything important I'll come back to add it later.

Robin


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## tonyshuman (Oct 27, 2008)

oh poor sweet little Ronnie. It sounds like this is a tough bug and it might take a while to treat. Good for you for being assertive with the vet! I'm not always sure who or what to believe, so challenging your vet to demonstrate that they know their stuff is good. I don't know if those responses they gave you are good, but I'm sure someone else will. A note on eating: could you mix the oats in with his pellets so that he might eat the pellets more? Good luck to you guys.ray:ray:


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## Bo B Bunny (Oct 27, 2008)

That's good news. Keep us posted, I am thinking of him and you.


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## Little Bay Poo (Oct 27, 2008)

*tonyshuman wrote: *


> A note on eating: could you mix the oats in with his pellets so that he might eat the pellets more?


This made me chuckle, because Ronnie is an expert at pushing around pellets to get to the oats . Sometimes he can be pickier than Billy and he's good at finding ways to eat only the "good parts" of what we give him 

Because I'm filling his food bowl so high it's near impossible for me to tell if he's eating his pellets. I think I saw him eating them the other day (couldn't tell if he was grabbing up the oats from the bowl or the pellets but whatever it was, was very crunchy). So I think he's eating a really small amount of pellets, but I'm not positive. 

He's eating so much more hay than ever though. Ronnie used to hate his hay and now he can't get enough of it!


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## Bo B Bunny (Oct 27, 2008)

What about getting a tiny jar of newborn baby food bananas, and then when you give him his pellets, put a teeny amount of warm water and just a nip of the bananas in there to make a fluffy mix? That's how we fed Clover in her first few weeks of solid food. She LOVED it. You can also get baby food oatmeal with applesauce and bananas. A jar would/could last a long time. I'm talking just about 1/8 tsp or so in the feed to get it interesting


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## Little Bay Poo (Oct 27, 2008)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> What about getting a tiny jar of newborn baby food bananas, and then when you give him his pellets, put a teeny amount of warm water and just a nip of the bananas in there to make a fluffy mix? That's how we fed Clover in her first few weeks of solid food. She LOVED it. You can also get baby food oatmeal with applesauce and bananas. A jar would/could last a long time. I'm talking just about 1/8 tsp or so in the feed to get it interesting


It's worth a shot. I'll keep an eye out next time I'm at the grocery store and see if I can find a jar that Ronnie might like. I know he likes apples and oatmeal.


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## SnowyShiloh (Oct 30, 2008)

Any Ronnie updates?


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## Little Bay Poo (Oct 30, 2008)

*SnowyShiloh wrote: *


> Any Ronnie updates?


Sorry I haven't been updating much. Everything is about the same with Ronnie. I think this is going to be a really lengthy process and I'm not sure how much improvement to expect when everything is said and done. At this point, Ronnie's head doesn't look like it's going back to normal (of course I don't know what to expect because this is my first time dealing with head tilt.) I'm thinking even though we started treatment the first day he went tilty, there was already damage. 

One thing I noticed about the Pen G shots is that they kill Ronnie's appetite. When he's off the shots he starts eating a lot, but he also goes more tilty and is prone to rolling after a few days without the Pen G. We have to give him Critical Care for a while because his appetite is bad, and even though we bought a new bag of pellets, going back on the shots made him lose interest. He still eats hay every day though, which is good. Off the shots he's a hay eating machine, on the shots he doesn't eat too much hay but still eats more hay than he did before he got sick. Ronnie used to be a hay snob and turn his nose up at it 

Before he got sick, Ronnie used to do three things. He'd run up to me every time he thought I was coming in to see him, he'd run furious circles around my legs to keep me in the room, and if I stayed long enough he'd inevitably try to hump my arm. Well, the humping is gone now but Ronnie still likes to run circles as fast as he can around my legs. He also gets really excited when he sees me approaching and runs up to greet me. This actually worked against him yesterday, because he got so excited that he forgot to be careful with his balance. Ronnie saw me coming through the kitchen and jumped up to run over to me. Only thing is, he got up too fast and immediately lost his balance. Poor guy rolled over three times and landed upside-down against the plastic barrier! :shock:

I went over right away to set him upright, and he started running around like nothing had happened. Then he flopped down next to me and begged me for pets. When I stopped, he ran mad circles around me until I started petting him again. Ronnie loves the attention and gets upset when I stop petting him and have to attend to other things. He seems to be his happy old self, just more wobbly and less horny


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## NZminilops (Oct 30, 2008)

This picture is making my eyes water :sad:,








Ronnie is such a heart breaker!

I winced when I read about how he got excited and rolled when he saw you, but it's so good that he's still so happy to see you! He's obviously still madly in love with you, minus the humping bit (I'm sure you don't miss that too much ).

:hug:


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## SnowyShiloh (Oct 30, 2008)

Aww my poor little Ronnie bear  I know tilty bunnies can live happy lives, but it breaks my heart to think of him being tilted forever. I reeeeeally hope he gets better and untilts! The thought of him rolling is so sad, I nearly cried when I saw video of Ringo rolling.


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## JadeIcing (Oct 30, 2008)

One thing I should point out is that just because the tilt remains doesn't mean the rolling will.

I hope that it goes away and never comes back. If not I hope, I know that he will learn to adapt and be his spunky little self.


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## Bo B Bunny (Oct 31, 2008)

My poor baby! that picture made me sad too 

I'm happy he's feeling a bit better tho. Poor thing - that's got to be one of the worst things to have them go through....


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## Little Bay Poo (Nov 1, 2008)

Ronnie had a lot of rolling episodes today. I don't know exactly how many, but I witnessed somewhere between 5 and 10. He is incapable of staying in his cage tonight because he gets extremely disoriented in there, so he is spending the night loafing and running around his play area, with access to his cage when he wants it. 

Ronnie is okay if he's running at moderate speeds or sitting perfectly still. It is when he walks around slowly that he gets in trouble. For some reason, when moving slowly and investigating things, Ronnie's head will advance to a 90 degree angle (9 o'clock) and he is at a heightened chance for rolling. A sure sign is when I see his head go so tilted that his eye will start to roll back to expose the whites, and then he loses balance and falls over.

Since he cannot maintain moderate running speeds in his cage, and he is prone to wandering slowly and investigating, he cannot feasibly stay in there. It's strange how drastically he improves from being able to run around the room, and how quickly he deteriorates in his cage. 

We tried giving him Meclizine in hopes that it would reduce his dizziness, but it did not help. Tomorrow we'll be calling the vets to see what they think we should do.

Tomorrow is also the day that he goes off his Pen G shots for three days :?


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## Little Bay Poo (Nov 1, 2008)

I just got off the phone with Chris and wanted to type a quick update. He said when he looked in on Ronnie this afternoon, he noticed that Ronnie had pooped everywhere! This is good because he had been producing small amounts of really small poops, and today he made a lot of various sized black poops (which makes me think he was constipated before). They are approaching more normal size now and were round and hard.

Chris also said that Ronnie is running around fine and his head looks like it was on the second day of treatment. I guess the night out of his cage did him some good. I also did a little bit of reading and learned that head tilt bunnies do have bad days here and there...so yesterday must have been a bad day for Ronnie.

We'll continue to keep an eye on him to make sure he's okay. I'm thinking about buying rolls of carpet and a layer of plastic to put underneath the carpet so that if Ronnie needs to spend any nights outside the cage, Chris's apartment won't be ruined. That was one thing about last night...it was pretty difficult to convince Chris to let Ronnie stay outside the cage because he didn't want his carpet to get more pee stained. It ended up that Ronnie peed on the newspaper we laid out for him so it was all good


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## slavetoabunny (Nov 1, 2008)

I hope you know how lucky you are to have a great guy like Chris to help you with Ronnie!! He sounds like a gem.

Have you tried doing neck massages for him. I remember reading somewhere that this is beneficial in relieving neck tilt.


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## Little Bay Poo (Nov 1, 2008)

*slavetoabunny wrote: *


> I hope you know how lucky you are to have a great guy like Chris to help you with Ronnie!! He sounds like a gem.
> 
> Have you tried doing neck massages for him. I remember reading somewhere that this is beneficial in relieving neck tilt.


We were thinking about waiting until after the infection is gone to start neck massages. I haven't really done any reading about it, but Chris briefly mentioned that he had read something about the neck massages. When I have more time I'll have to see if I can find any more information about that and when we can start.

This head tilt recovery is so weird. Just yesterday Ronnie was all kinds of messed up with rolling etc., and today he's been running circles around my legs, grooming me, and he even started eating his pellets again!


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## TinysMom (Nov 1, 2008)

*Little Bay Poo wrote:*


> I also did a little bit of reading and learned that head tilt bunnies do have bad days here and there...so yesterday must have been a bad day for Ronnie.


Having a head tilt bunny is a bit of an emotional roller coaster ride. They may have a week or more (even a month or more) of good days -then have a day - or even a week - of bad days and you wonder, "Is it time to let them go?"

Then suddenly - they seem to perk up and start having good days again and you wonder why you even thought that it was time to let them go.

He's young and he's strong and he's got a fighting spirit - so when you hit those bad days - repeat to yourself, "This too shall pass..." and wait it out till you get some good days. They will come.

I have lost several bunnies that had wry neck - sometimes to other issues than the wry neck. In each case...they let me know when it was time to pass. It wasn't just that they had some bad days...its that their whole attitude towards life changed. 

Honestly - I think this is a bad bump in the road for y'all - but even if he has a tilt the rest of his life - he could have years and years ahead of him...and once he adjusts to the tilt....he can do just fine.

Give him a hug for me - or an extra treat. After my recent ear infections when I was getting vertigo - I understand a bit about how he must feel...I'm a lot more sympathetic now (and I was pretty darn sympathetic before to my wry neck bunnies)....because I understand how hard it can be to chew when your ear feels so horrible.


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## JadeIcing (Nov 2, 2008)

*



I would start now, and try it whenever you have a chance.

Click to expand...

Little Bay Poo wrote: *


> We were thinking about waiting until after the infection is gone to start neck massages. I haven't really done any reading about it, but Chris briefly mentioned that he had read something about the neck massages. When I have more time I'll have to see if I can find any more information about that and when we can start.


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## kherrmann3 (Nov 6, 2008)

How is little disapproving Ronnie doing? 

I hope he's doing well! :brownbunny


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## Little Bay Poo (Nov 7, 2008)

*kherrmann3 wrote: *


> How is little disapproving Ronnie doing?
> 
> I hope he's doing well! :brownbunny


Sorry I've been so bad about updating this thread! Things have been hectic around here, and while I come on to read posts I haven't had the time to sit down and write anything. All I can say for now is that Ronnie is doing the same and hasn't had any really bad days since the one I mentioned in my previous post. I'll have to update more later when I can sit down and think of more specifics of what is going on. Hopefully I can take some photos this weekend if I have the time.


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## Raspberry82 (Nov 7, 2008)

Oh gosh! I've been so busy lately, I haven't had much time to read posts on the forum so I'm just seeing this! I'm so sorry Robin, and so glad all the best on here jumped in to help you so much. I love this place.

Anyway, just wanted to say my prayers and thoughts are with you and Ronnie for a full recovery. And your post is a good reminder to me to start looking into pet insurance. After learning how expensive surgeries can be on top of tests, x-rays, etc for these little guys, for $30 a month ($5,000 coverage yearly), it would pay for itself with just 1 yr vet check up and routine tests practically, if not needed for big stuff .

:hug2:

Athy


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## Flashy (Nov 7, 2008)

I'm glad Ronnie is having no more bad days 

Just to let you know, my Tilly has been having Convenia and it has shown improvement (thus meaning she still has/had an infection) and even though that has shown improvement, it has not made her straight. However, something that has helped is the neck/shoulder massages. You can see a visible difference before and after, and she holds her head far better after. Just thought that might be on interest to you.

Something else that might interest you is that when one of Tilly's bonded friends was really ill they had a snugglesafe in there (basically a heat pad but safe for animals) and whilst her bonded friend didn't use it, Tilly could always be found lying with her neck on it, so it seems that heat felt nice for it. So maybe a rice sock or something might benefit Ronnie?

I don't know if this will benefit Ronnie, but if he is a type of bun that when you give him food he takes it and runs away, then it might be worth a shot. Tilly does take food and run (mainly because she is one of three) and when we gave them a whole carrot between the three of them, she picked the carrot up and ran off with a completely straight head and it was amazing. She was clearly using her muscles properly and we now use this as another way to give her physio (as well as a treat ball, scatter feedingand also waving food around her head to make her turn her head in different ways).

Just thought I would share my newfound experiences with you 

Tracy (AKA Flashymagoo but in the process of getting the accounts merged).


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## Little Bay Poo (Nov 7, 2008)

Raspberry82, thank you for your well wishes . I'm thinking we're going to have to look into pet insurance soon too, seeing as how we've paid $270 for our first vet visit and another $160 for a follow up visit :X. They also charge us $15 for every tiny bottle of medicine whenever we need a refill so that adds up. Chris just spent $1000 on his car to get it to pass inspection so that means that all of the vet bills (which I was previously contributing 60% to) will now be 100% my responsibility. YAY.

Tracy, thanks for all of the advice you've sent me though PM and on here. There's so much I want to do for Ronnie but my time has been disappearing lately! I feel like I can get a certain amount of things done and then it's suddenly the end of the day and I have no clue where all of my time went :?. I've been forced to bring over school work every day that I go over to take care of Ronnie, but hopefully when that clears up I'll have more time to try all of the things you've suggested. Poor Billy hasn't been let out of the cage for three days and is now growling and boxing the cage door! :shock:

Also wanted to say a belated thank you to Peg and Alicia for your previous two posts which I never got around to responding to, and your continued involvement in this thread :hug1

In a few days we should be talking to the vet to discuss our treatment plan with Ronnie so I'll update with more details then.

Robin


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## JadeIcing (Nov 7, 2008)

*Little Bay Poo wrote: *


> Also wanted to say a belated thank you to Peg and Alicia for your previous two posts which I never got around to responding to, and your continued involvement in this thread :hug1
> 
> In a few days we should be talking to the vet to discuss our treatment plan with Ronnie so I'll update with more details then.
> 
> Robin


Peg and I know what it can be like. It is not a walk in the park. More like running from an avalanche.


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## SnowyShiloh (Nov 12, 2008)

Are there any Ronnie updates? How's my boy?


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## Bo B Bunny (Nov 12, 2008)

I've been thinking about you and Ronnie so much today. I hope things are better.


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## Little Bay Poo (Nov 12, 2008)

We've been trying to get in touch with the vet for a few days now with no luck. The first day the vet was in but timing was off and we missed the call, then they missed our call later. Today they were not in, but they will be in tomorrow so hopefully we can get in contact with them. It's not critical at this point, but we do need to talk to them by Friday to know what kind of treatment we should be doing over the coming weeks. Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday this week are no shot days, and although our prescription has technically run out for Pen G, we do have extra needles to resume shots on Friday.

Ronnie is doing well, although his head is still on crooked. Even though people say Baytril is ineffective, I think it has helped to bridge the gap on his days without Pen G, because Ronnie has not had any relapses since. The Baytril has a funny side effect though, in that it makes Ronnie want to chew anything and everything...and he was not a chewer before. I read that Baytril is very bitter and can cause this Pica like reaction. Ronnie goes crazy for a salt lick due to the bitterness of the Baytril, but we only allow him about 5 to 10 minutes of salt lick time per day so he doesn't overdo it.

Ronnie has gotten a lot better with keeping his balance, and the only time he rolls is right after we put him down from his bunny burrito after medications. Most of the time he gets out of his burrito fine though and doesn't roll. When he does roll, he regains his balance himself now, only rolling once and then getting up normally. 

Although Ronnie has lost his desire to hump, he still circles me like a madman. I'll sit with him petting him until he goes into a dead bunny flop and looks like he's content. Then, when my arm gets tired and he looks comfortable enough that I can sneak away, I quietly get up and try to leave the room. Sometimes I can't even get out of the room before he is running circles around my legs as if to say "HEY, Where are you going? You're not done yet!" Occasionally I can get out of the room but when I look back I inevitably see Ronnie sitting up and looking at me with his crooked head and oh so pathetic look on his face.

Whenever I approach the kitchen, Ronnie runs up to the edge of his room and looks at me eagerly to come in. He's afraid of the kitchen so he won't come through but he likes to give me pathetic looks from the other side. When I fall for it and go in to see him he goes back to running circles around me. :foreheadsmack:

He's such a needy little guy, or at least he likes to portray himself that way. At least I know he's feeling better though 

I will update again when we finally get to talk to the vet to figure out where to go with Ronnie's treatment.

Robin


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## Flashy (Nov 13, 2008)

I'm glad he is doing well. You sound more positive today than you have done for a while and that's nice to read  I hope you manage to get in touch with your vet to work out where to go from here  Oh and if Ronnie wants to move in here, I have a two girlfriends and their boy waiting to meet him (one being Tilly my tilty bun, and her girlie friend and husbun, both of whom are very nurturing to Tilly, so Ronnie will fit right in). Just let me know when you're sending him :biggrin2:


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## kherrmann3 (Nov 13, 2008)

It's good to hear that his rolling episodes are at a minimum. It's also great to hear that you are getting happy circles around your feet. It's just plain funny to hear that you are getting the sad Ronnie face from across the room.  What a funny boy


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## slavetoabunny (Nov 13, 2008)

*Little Bay Poo wrote: *


> The Baytril has a funny side effect though, in that it makes Ronnie want to chew anything and everything...and he was not a chewer before. I read that Baytril is very bitter and can cause this Pica like reaction. Ronnie goes crazy for a salt lick due to the bitterness of the Baytril, but we only allow him about 5 to 10 minutes of salt lick time per day so he doesn't overdo it.


You should ask your vet if you can get the Baytril compounded. I had some compounded with Pina Colada flavor and Scooter just loved it. It's a little more expensive, but well worth it if it makes giving meds easier.


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## Bo B Bunny (Nov 13, 2008)

So you're saying that bunnies tend to have a taste for the alcoholic foo-foo drinks?


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## NZminilops (Nov 13, 2008)

I'm not even going to ask what a foo-foo drink is onder:.


Just popping in to say that I'm thinking of Ronnie :hugsquish:.


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## Bo B Bunny (Nov 13, 2008)

LOL! Foo-Foo is sort of this:







*VS*

This:


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## slavetoabunny (Nov 13, 2008)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> So you're saying that bunnies tend to have a taste for the alcoholic foo-foo drinks?


Lol, I had a friend visiting who knocked over a glass of Baileys on ice in Sparky and Scooters pen disgust:just don't ask). Scooter went nuts trying to lick it before we got it cleaned up. Fortunately, the glass was almost empty. I would have hated to waste too much Baileys.


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## Little Bay Poo (Nov 14, 2008)

Short update from Chris, who talked to the vet today over the phone:

The vet will not prescribe any more medications for Ronnie unless we take him in for another $70 check up. I'm still not certain if she will want to run tests or just eyeball him, but if tests are run the bill could be in the mid 200's. According to Chris, she would not really discuss anything other than to say, I have to see Ronnie in person to give you more medication. 

I'm a little annoyed because I get the impression that if we didn't have the money they would say...too bad you don't get any treatment. I'm not sure if this is all standard vet procedure because I don't have much experience with vets. The previous visit I got a little peeved when we were charged $30 for the vet to put a dipstick in a urine sample, and what we thought would be a $70 check up ended up being over $160 due to lots of extra fees.

Anyhow, it looks like we're going to try to schedule something for Saturday because I don't want to randomly take Ronnie off all medications just because we are low on funds. I'm not sure how you tell if the infection is gone and if it's okay to stop Pen G, but that's something we can always discuss with the vet.


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## Maureen Las (Nov 14, 2008)

*Little Bay Poo wrote: *


> Short update from Chris, who talked to the vet today over the phone:
> 
> The vet will not prescribe any more medications for Ronnie unless we take him in for another $70 check up. I'm still not certain if she will want to run tests or just eyeball him, but if tests are run the bill could be in the mid 200's. According to Chris, she would not really discuss anything other than to say, I have to see Ronnie in person to give you more medication.
> 
> ...


It's standard vet procedure with the ones I see.....:grumpy:


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## Little Bay Poo (Nov 16, 2008)

We took Ronnie to the vet yesterday for another check up. The vet said he looked really good (aside from his obvious tilt) and that he was well hydrated. Ronnie did lose a bit of weight from his last visit (something like 16 grams) so we have to feed him Critical Care more often during the day. He went back on his pellets once, but is now off them again although he is capable of eating (he likes oats and hay). I'm a little confused about why he won't eat them and thinking we should try some Oxbow because maybe he doesn't like the taste of Manna Pro anymore after being on Oxbow's Critical Care.

We are now off Baytril but are still giving Ronnie Panacur, Meclizine, and Pen G shots. The vet wanted us to go off Pen G shots too, but I told her that we had so many mishaps with the shots last round that we technically got 2 days in him, 3 days off, 2 days on, and 3 days off again. She said that wasn't good and Ronnie needs a full 7 days for the shots to be effective because they build up in his system over that time. If we screw up and he doesn't get his shots for a few days we are essentially starting from scratch. 

I asked how do you know when the infection is gone, and it's pretty much a trial and error thing. You take the bunny off all antibiotics and see how they do, if they get progressively worse you put them back on the antibiotics again. Not a method that I'm particularly fond of, but I guess it's all we can do.

So now we have a prescription for 2 more rounds of Pen G shots, and Chris is going out of town for Thanksgiving but I will be here. This means that I have to learn how to give Ronnie the Pen G shots by myself. It looks like it's going to be another busy week for me with going to classes, doing my average of 20 hours of homework a week, and driving over every day to help with Ronnie and learn how to administer all the medications myself.

I really need to make a post in this thread dedicated to Pen G shots because we've had so many mishaps. Yesterday the vet tech tried to show us how to do it and accidentally shot Penicillin at the ceiling when it got stuck in the needle, so it's not just us . Apparently a lot of others have been having trouble with administering the shots too because they are now using a compound meant for humans that clumps and gets stuck in needles very easily. But yeah, I'll get around to that post later, after I see how the shot goes today...


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## JadeIcing (Nov 16, 2008)

I think their is a video in the library of me giving Ringo one.


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## Little Bay Poo (Nov 22, 2008)

Ronnie has improved a lot over the past week. Some days his head looks pretty good, like it's getting less crooked. His dizziness seems to be gone and he's just left with the tilt now. We were able to successfully get the whole 7 days worth of Pen G shots in him this time which probably helped. I'm starting to get the hang of giving the shot, but tenting Ronnie's skin is still tricky because he has no meat on him and is so small. 

Ronnie is about 3x as active as Billy...I've never seen him sleep and he's constantly running around when we let him out of his cage which means he burns a lot of calories. He's back to eating his pellets but we bought him Oxbow BBT because he looked like he didn't enjoy the Manna Pro anymore. Ronnie will look for other things to eat and go to his pellets last so we are going to try to switch him over to the Oxbow slowly. Maybe he will like it better especially since he likes Timothy hay so much and the Oxbow smells like hay. We are still giving him some Critical Care during medication time because he is so active. I also give him a bit of celery (we tried at least a dozen fruits and veggies over the past year and celery is the only thing he will eat). We're going to look into either getting a baking pan and fastening it to our current letter/envelope scale or buying a new larger scale from Wal-mart to keep an eye on his weight.

I had gotten some video of him but never got around to splicing the clips together and to be honest he looks the same as he did before. It's too difficult to tell his progress in pictures and video...you kinda have to see him in person to really tell the difference. 

That's all I can think of to update right now...I'm feeling pretty worn out today and I have a lot of studying to do this weekend. I'll update again when I can. Although I am on the forum a lot reading threads I just don't have the brainpower to write anything most days. I've been doing too much schoolwork lately and feel like staring blankly at a wall :?


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## Flashy (Nov 22, 2008)

It's great that he is doing so well, and that you feel he is improving 

Sounds like you need a break and some TLC. I hope you start to feel better soon.


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## JadeIcing (Nov 22, 2008)

That is awesome! I am so glad he is getting better.


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## tonyshuman (Nov 22, 2008)

:hug2:to you and Ronnie. I'm glad he's gradually getting better. You could give them the Oxbow 15/23 too if you're concerned about him putting on weight and he doesn't like the Manna Pro anymore. It's also an alfalfa pellet.


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## kherrmann3 (Nov 26, 2008)

I'm glad to hear that Ronnie has made it through this.  Even if he is not fully recovered yet, he's being a little trooper!


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## Little Bay Poo (Nov 28, 2008)

Over Thanksgiving break Chris is in Virginia Beach with his family and I am here giving Ronnie his shots and medications for a few days. Yesterday I got the shot right on the first try :biggrin2:

I had to go back to the vets today to pick up more Pen G. Our vet likes to give us the bare minimum or too little medication and make us come back to buy more because it's not enough to finish the prescription period. They pretty much suck every penny out of people through various methods, but the next closest vet is 40+ minutes away. Luckily today they didn't charge anything as we weren't given enough Pen G the first time around. 

While I was at the vet I figured I would get them to do the Pen G shot even though they said it would cost $13.50 to have a vet tech do it. My dad was with me to help but was limited on time so we decided the fee wasn't too bad if we could get out of there quickly. 

Well, the vet tech came in to give the shot and EXPLODED PEN G BACKWARDS OUT OF THE NEEDLE, getting penicillin on my sweatshirt and in my hair. She did this twice. Apparently the Pen G they have is so bad, that everyone is having problems administering it. Basically the old company they got Pen G from went out of business and now they are buying some human form of Pen G that clumps easily and gives all sorts of trouble...even for vet techs. So after the vet tech roamed frantically around the building to find an alternate source of Pen G, she came back to give it a third try. She never found that alternate Pen G, and gave it a go with the thick stuff again.

Luckily it worked this time. In our experience, administering Pen G shots does have an element of luck to it. The vet felt bad about the tech exploding Penicillin on us so we didn't have to pay anything today. Now I just have one more day to administer the shot myself before Chris comes back on Sunday. After Sunday's shot Ronnie will be off Pen G to see if his infection is gone.

Ronnie continues to do well. He stands up in his cage now instead of creeping around dizzily like he used to. He did alright in his carrier although he was a bit dizzy because I hadn't given his daily dose of Meclizine yet. Ronnie is eating his pellets, oatmeal, hay, celery, and drinking water. His weight is still not stable so we are continuing Critical Care to help him maintain. I think the reason for his weight issues is the fact that he NEVER STOPS MOVING. He's constantly running around his play area and only stops for 30 seconds to a minute to flop and catch his breath. He makes ME dizzy with his incessant running :run:


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## TinysMom (Nov 28, 2008)

Not to sound stupid - but can't you get Pen G at a local feed/farm store? 

I just brought my bottle in and looked at it - I think I paid $19.95 for it (it is the larger bottle - I had a smaller one I think was $9.95). 

Here is what mine says on the label:

Penicillin G
Benzathine & Penicillin G Procaine

in Aqueous Suspension
Antibiotic

Net contents 250 ml

Contains: Each ml contains 150,000 units pen G benzathine; 150,000 units pen G procaine and there are some other ingredients listed. It needs to be stored at refrigeration - not frozen...

I'm trying to think when I started using this bottle....its still half full. I want to say I started using it in May maybe..and I have treated several rabbits with it for various things...I may have even started using it before May now that I think about it - more like Feb?

I use it with sub-q fluids (lactated ringers) to cut the sting of the injection.


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## dobe627 (Nov 28, 2008)

I have been following this thread and so glad your little bunnys doing better. If the pen G is going to be a long time thing you may want to check you local Tractor supply store. You should be able to get a bottle for under $15. If not I know alot of my farm supply catalogs have it for sale. I know the one I have sitting here in front of me has a bottle for 11.65. If you are comfortable drawing it up and stuff. You can also buy syringes ( in certain states you do need a prescption though) if you know what gauge needle your vet is using. The catalog has a 12pk of 20 gauge needles w syringes for $4.70. Just offering a little help. Cathy


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## TinysMom (Nov 28, 2008)

Oooh - seeing the tips about the needles - thought I'd share a bit more information about what I do..

I buy the insulin needles at the local pharmacy - I buy a box of 100 for $11.50. (I could buy them in packages of 10 I think). For our state (TX) - I don't need a prescription to buy the needles.

The bag of lactated ringers runs me about $11.50 and it lasts a LONG time. Technically, I should probably replace it every month - but I replace it every couple of months (unless it looks cloudy - then I replace it immediately). 

So for me to do 100 shots - its $11.50 for needles - probably use about $2 out of the $11.50 lactated ringers bags - and for the amount of Pen G that I use....about $5 worth of the $19.95 bottle of Pen G (actually - probably closer to about $3).

Of course - I don't have a vet handy that will treat rabbits....I always recommend seeing a vet because head tilt can be caused by so many things.


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## Maureen Las (Nov 28, 2008)

I cannot believe that a vet would charge $13.50 for an injection of pen G.

Everyone is correct...
this stuff can be bought under different trade names for almost nothing at tractor supply or farm and fleet and other farm stores. In Wi. you can also buy needles and syringes but you can not get the selection of sizes and lengths that one would like. 

MY new vet in Mnsold me lactated ringers for about $4.00 or something like that. The problem would be asking your vet clinic if you could buy the supplies and get your own Pen G.It is tonyshuman(who works with parmaceuticals) who stated that veterinary drugs should be used for animals and human medication should be used for humans. I don't know why the vet clinic would have human pen G anyway.

Some of the names that bicillin is under in the farm stores are Combi -pen 48 and Dura-pen. We have more names in the library 
The main thing to look for on the back is the 

150,000 u procaine penicillin

15,000u benzathine penicillin. 

this is bicillin

these drugs are sold primarily for use in cattle

Sometimes it is difficult to give it and it shoots out etc and you have to start over but for $13.50 an injection and 2 botched attempts by the vet tech they could teach you to do it yourself.


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## Little Bay Poo (Nov 28, 2008)

Thanks guys, I am just now getting home and reading everyone's posts. 

I had passed by the medicine section at our local Tractor Supply but had no clue what I was looking at or if it was legal for me to get that kind of stuff without a prescription. I don't have a single country bone in my body...you should see me wandering aimlessly around the Tractor Supply and trying to figure out what the heck a wood stove pellet is or why they are playing that god awful music . Probably one reason the vet charges so much here is because they can...people in this area are more "city" and don't know any better, like me.

Does anyone know how I would figure out if it is legal for me to buy Pen G and syringes, and administer the correct dosage myself? We have been taught how to draw up the medication and give the injections, so I am comfortable with administering it. For the current round we will finish out with the medications I got at the vets, but if Ronnie's infection is not gone...or if it comes back in the future, then I gotta figure out a better way to do these shots. Basically, just to get the Pen G costs me $100 because the vet requires a $70 check up and $30 of additional small fees to even allow us the medication.


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## JadeIcing (Nov 28, 2008)

*You know his dosage and the store wouldn't sell it if it wasn't legal. *

*Little Bay Poo wrote: *


> Thanks guys, I am just now getting home and reading everyone's posts.
> 
> I had passed by the medicine section at our local Tractor Supply but had no clue what I was looking at or if it was legal for me to get that kind of stuff without a prescription. I don't have a single country bone in my body...you should see me wandering aimlessly around the Tractor Supply and trying to figure out what the heck a wood stove pellet is or why they are playing that god awful music . Probably one reason the vet charges so much here is because they can...people in this area are more "city" and don't know any better, like me.
> 
> Does anyone know how I would figure out if it is legal for me to buy Pen G and syringes, and administer the correct dosage myself? We have been taught how to draw up the medication and give the injections, so I am comfortable with administering it. For the current round we will finish out with the medications I got at the vets, but if Ronnie's infection is not gone...or if it comes back in the future, then I gotta figure out a better way to do these shots. Basically, just to get the Pen G costs me $100 because the vet requires a $70 check up and $30 of additional small fees to even allow us the medication.


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## Little Bay Poo (Nov 29, 2008)

*JadeIcing wrote: *


> *You know his dosage and the store wouldn't sell it if it wasn't legal. *


:biggrin2: I guess the only thing would be to confirm it with the Tractor Supply before making the trip then.

Another question though...How do I know when it's the right time to start Pen G again? Ronnie seems to be permanently tilted, so I can't go by his head being crooked. I can go by his movements (and rolling episodes obviously). Right now he's moving around so well and not rolling at all, so if he starts getting disoriented again I'd take that as a sign that the infection is still there. But would it be a bad idea for me to start up shots without taking him in for another vet check up to confirm that he's worsening and that he needs them? 

I'm sure if I see him getting bad again I'll know it's time for more injections, but I feel weird about diagnosing that myself :?. How do other members with head tilt bunnies know when it's time for more shots, and do you feel you need a vet to confirm this?


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## JadeIcing (Nov 29, 2008)

*Little Bay Poo wrote: *


> *JadeIcing wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *You know his dosage and the store wouldn't sell it if it wasn't legal. *
> ...



Honestly if he got bad again I think you need something stronger. Was it determained what kind of bacteria it is? If it is pasteurella than I would try a zithromax/Pen G combo. The one thing I learned with Ringo is not to continue with a med that is not working.


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## Maureen Las (Nov 29, 2008)

You really need the vet to confirm when it is the appropriate times for you to start the meds. What I was thinking , in your case, is to tell the vet that you have your own penicillin at home (that you bought it to save money) and that you can give the injections yourself. Hopefully the vet will work with you and tell you when he should be on them or not. 
We are not advocating you taking his medical care into your own hands but just making it financially easier to get the med yourself.
The meds in the refrigerator at tractor supply and farm and fleet do not require a prescription; you buy it at the checkout line just like everything else. Sometimes they ask me if I have a farm ID number (could get it even cheaper) and I say no it's just for my rabbits. 
Just an idea

We are NOT advocatiing that you don't get the vet care but only get the med from a place that will cost you less.


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## Little Bay Poo (Nov 29, 2008)

Ronnie is on Pen G currently. The vet did not like the idea of Zithromax, but was willing to special order it (I don't want to know how much they'd charge for that).

The Pen G itself is not what is hurting us financially...it is the $100 we have to pay to be allowed to get the Pen G. The vet will not give us any new prescriptions for Pen G unless we spend $100 taking Ronnie in for a full examination. They will not consult over the phone or lessen the fee of the exam, because we have told them that we don't have the funds to keep doing this but they think $100 every few weeks is still within reason. 

We live in Fairfax County, where the median income is over $100,000 and people throw money at things without thinking. My parents just spent $500 to have a plumber replace the kitchen faucet and have spent $1500 on some random "woodsman" who came to our door and said some of our trees looked sickly and needed to be cut down. I'm saying this because if the vet can't get money from us, they'll just refuse us service and get it somewhere else. There are a lot of rich people here.

So right now I'm thinking our options are to call up the vet in Purcellville to see what their fees look like for check ups, and if medical records can be sent there. (We got Billy and Ronnie neutered at the Purcellville vet for $100 because the Fairfax vet wanted to charge upwards of $350 per neuter.) If it's not much different then we stick with the current vet and decide if we want to get Pen G at the Tractor Supply...not because of the cost of the Pen G, but because the vet will only supply us with the human form of the drug that malfunctions a lot and makes me stress out every time we give the shot. 

If the Tractor Supply Pen G will make it easier to administer the drug (i.e. no explosions or multiple attempts to get the thing into Ronnie every day) then I'm game.


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## Little Bay Poo (Nov 29, 2008)

Sorry I forgot to answer JadeIcing in my post:

Yes, Ronnie tested positive for Pasteurella. However, they also said that the titers were difficult to read and open for interpretation and he also tested positive for E.C. Based on what Randy said before, I assume this to mean that Ronnie's infection is caused by Pasteurella, and not caused by E.C.


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## Maureen Las (Nov 29, 2008)

I now understand what you are talking about..the more affluent the area the more they charge. 
!st of all I would REALLY check out the vet in Purcellville to find out if he will even use drugs like pen g and zithromax. many vets will not. You could maybe find a vet farther away and drive as the cost of gas right now would be less than what your vet charges. The cost of a spay in your area is way way high. ..close to $130.00 more than where I am; and it is considered high here. 

before you switch you want to make sure that you get a vet that is very knowledgeable re. head tilt. otherwise there is no point in switching. You could get a cheaper vet with no good knowledge behind him. 
You may want to look at the lists on this site/ot check with the HRS in your area emphasizing Ronnie's problems.
In terms of human versus veterinary penicillin they may have used that as an excuse for botching the injections. Do they dilute the penicillin with a sterile diluent? If not it is way harder to give and there is a greater chance of Ronnie getting a sterile abscess. This is something that I think all of us learned from Randy and , to be honest, I do not know if a lot of vets do it. using a sterile diluent makes the penicillin way thinner thus making it easier to get in. it also cuts down on the sting and is easier on the rabbit's tissues. 

Even then it is not uncommon to have to makeseveral tries occasionallyto get it right . When I was giving it to Beau sometimes it just went perfect and then other days I would apparently go through the skin fold without being aware and shoot it on him. I would have to wipe him off and start over again. but eventually would get it right.

The more you do it the better you get at giving it..just like everything else in life. 
you have lots to think about...

I have one vet here that just started using pen G herself; she lets me use my own supply of it but tells me when to start and stop.


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## Little Bay Poo (Nov 29, 2008)

Yep, lots of things to think about, all of which I will have to discuss with Chris when he comes back on Sunday. Next time we see the vet I will ask them if they use a sterile diluent (I'd never heard of that before) to thin out the medication. It stinks sometimes because I don't have the knowledge to combat what the vet has to say, so a lot of things I have to take their word for and hope they are helping us to the best of their knowledge. This forum is a lifesaver though, as I would have no other way of learning about all of the different treatment options out there and what to expect.


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## Maureen Las (Nov 29, 2008)

Just tell the vet that the people on the rabbit website asked if he uses a sterile diluent then it won't seem like you are questioning him but that WE are questioning him...

if he asks why ?

say .

1) To thin out the penicillin so it is injected easier and also to cause less irritation to the tissue under the skin

2) to decrease the risk of a sterile abscess

3) to decrease the 'sting' of the injection


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## NZminilops (Dec 3, 2008)

How is Ronnie today?


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## Little Bay Poo (Dec 3, 2008)

*NZminilops wrote: *


> How is Ronnie today?


Ronnie is doing well. He is off his shots now and we are playing the waiting game to see if his infection comes back. According to the vet, this is all we can do...there's no real test to see if it's gone so we just wait and see what happens without antibiotics. Today is day three without his shots, but we've been to this point before with him because he's had to be off Pen G for three days many times. It may be a week or two before we really know if the infection is gone. 

Ronnie is a very picky eater. He's been throwing his Oxbow BBT pellets so we're letting him keep the Manna Pro alfalfa based ones. Billy doesn't like the Oxbow BBT either...I'm thinking alfalfa tastes better? We're still giving Ronnie between 24 and 36 cc of Critical Care every day. He's very good about it and easy to feed.

Anyhow, here's some pictures I took today of Ronnie, and a short video:














Ronnie's "down eye"













A couple more of his down eye












Munching on celery







Short video of him running around. He gets around really well...his last rolling episode was a few weeks ago:


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## MyLOVEABLES!! (Dec 4, 2008)

oh my... I just saw this thread... i cant believe imissed t!


but anyways im glad taht ronnie is doing better!

he's so adorabl!

make sure you keep us updated.

xx


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## SnowyShiloh (Dec 4, 2008)

Poor little Ronnie  At least his head isn't as tilted as some bunnies... I really hope the infection is gone now! Thanks for updating us. How is Billy?


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## Bo B Bunny (Dec 4, 2008)

head tilt breaks my heart. Ronnie is doing really well but I wish his head would be normal  Poor thing.

We're thinking of you guys ray:


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## Flashy (Dec 4, 2008)

I think its so sad that Ronnie is still tilted. Tilly was tilted for far longer without treatment and she is now less tilted than Ronnie because she is getting successful treatment. I hope that if it gets worse that your vet can help you find and try a different drug/combo to try and combat it.

He is coping well though, which is lovely to see, just sad that he has to see the world from that angle.


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## Little Bay Poo (Dec 4, 2008)

*SnowyShiloh wrote: *


> Poor little Ronnie  At least his head isn't as tilted as some bunnies... I really hope the infection is gone now! Thanks for updating us. How is Billy?


Billy is the same spoiled little troublemaker he always is 

He gets jealous of the extra attention that I'm giving Ronnie.

Billy notices Ronnie's scent on my jeans and seems fascinated by it:







He also likes to keep an eye on Ronnie, although I don't think Billy understands that anything is wrong with him:


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## Little Bay Poo (Dec 4, 2008)

I know it's hard to tell from the pictures and the video (they look the same to me if I compare them to the ones I posted a few weeks ago) but Ronnie has made vast improvements: 

I was not able to see his down eye before because his head was almost always near a 90 degree angle, with one eye pointing directly at the ceiling. Now I have no trouble seeing his down eye and his head appears almost normal at times.

Ronnie used to creep around to maintain balance, he doesn't do this anymore because he doesn't have any balance problems.

Ronnie used to have one nonfunctional ear. He can now move both of his ears independently like he did before he got sick.
Ronnie's eye used to twitch back and forth because he had nystagmus (sp?). It no longer does this unless he has not had his Meclizine for the day and is in a stressful situation (like the vets office). We can usually pick him up for meds and his eye will be still.
Ronnie would get really bad when we put him in his cage and fall over because he did not like confined spaces...they made him dizzy. Now he sits up in his cage like a normal bunny and does not fall.
Ronnie would refuse to groom me, instead shoving his head under my hand. It was as if he knew that he was sick, and it was my duty to take care of him. Now he grooms me if I put my hand near his face.
His tilt has gotten better, but it's happening so slowly that it's difficult to tell. I'm still hoping that it will gradually improve over time and get back to normal. Ronnie doesn't seem to mind though, and acts as if nothing is wrong.

Ronnie's specialty is looking pathetic. I can't explain it other than to say that Ronnie can turn on the sympathy button at the drop of a hat, and get people who hate animals (like my dad) to feel sorry for him. To see Ronnie in person, and to know how he really is, is totally different than to see him in pictures. Often times I burst out laughing when I take pictures of him because he couldn't look any more pathetic...and he's running happy circles around me while doing this! He's a very talented bunny.

I've typed all this because I don't want people to look at the pictures and feel bad for him. Although his tilt may be a lifelong battle, and we may have to try other antibiotics if the infection comes back, right now Ronnie is doing great! 


Robin


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## Maureen Las (Dec 4, 2008)

:highfive:Good forRonnie That's great...!!


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## mouse_chalk (Dec 4, 2008)

I know I haven't commented in this thread for ages but I've been following it the whole way and I just wanted to say that I'm SO pleased he's doing better! He's such a fighter 

The video of him running around bought a little tear to my eye. It's so great to see him looking so happy! I hope he continues improving...


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## JadeIcing (Dec 9, 2008)

I was wondering how he is doing. Give him a treat from Ringo, Apple and me.


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## Little Bay Poo (Dec 9, 2008)

*JadeIcing wrote: *


> I was wondering how he is doing. Give him a treat from Ringo, Apple and me.



Ronnie is doing well. Today is his 9th day without antibiotics and he is not showing any signs of relapse. It looks like he will always have a slightly crooked head but he gets around really well and doesn't have any balance issues. The only thing that has changed is that he doesn't hump things anymore. 

We finally bought a baking pan and attached it to our letter scale with that foam double stick tape that you use to stick things to walls (can't remember the name of it offhand). I'm going to weigh Ronnie once a week. A couple of days ago he weighed in at 2 pounds 2 ounces, but I would like to see him get back to his previous weight which was around 2 pounds 5 ounces. We noticed he is making a good sized dent in his pellet bowl these days but putting on weight is a slow process even with the help of Critical Care. Ronnie's not too big on treats so we can only try to fatten him up with a pinch of oats daily. As he gets closer to his goal weight we will wean him off of the Critical Care.

I think Ronnie's issue has resolved itself for now, but being a bacterial infection I have a feeling that it can come back at any point in the future. If I'm not mistaken, animals cannot build up immunities to bacteria (feel free to correct me if this is wrong). I'm thinking of how some children get chronic ear infections, and assuming it is similar in rabbits. I guess we'll just have to be on high alert for signs of the infection coming back in the future.

I wonder if Ronnie still carries Pasteurella. I'm not sure if it is gone or if his immune system is just keeping it in check right now. It is worrisome that the vet said that Billy is now a carrier of Pasteurella (even though he shows no symptoms) because Billy will perpetually expose Ronnie (who is known sensitive to the bacteria). I also wonder what the chances are of head tilt bunnies having recurring infections for the rest of their lives.


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## Raspberry82 (Dec 9, 2008)

I hope Ronnie is doing better also. Sorry I didn't post any comments on here in so long! Things got so busy, but now I'm all caught up. I'm so glad he's improving!! And I have to say, in case a head-tilt problem ever pops up for me, it's really reassuring to know I can look up what you did with Ronnie to know how to handle to situation asap and what to expect. 

Ok, so it's the millionth time but.. you're bunny boys are so addictively cute and entertaining! I always have to catch up on Billy & Ronnie news. 

Best wishes for Ronnie.

:hug1


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## JadeIcing (Dec 9, 2008)

*Little Bay Poo wrote: *


> *JadeIcing wrote: *





> I was wondering how he is doing. Give him a treat from Ringo, Apple and me.





> Ronnie is doing well. Today is his 9th day without antibiotics and he is not showing any signs of relapse. It looks like he will always have a slightly crooked head but he gets around really well and doesn't have any balance issues. The only thing that has changed is that he doesn't hump things anymore.





> Yea well Ringo eventually started mounting things again. Also some bunnies have after a year or two randomly the head will be straight again.





> We finally bought a baking pan and attached it to our letter scale with that foam double stick tape that you use to stick things to walls (can't remember the name of it offhand). I'm going to weigh Ronnie once a week. A couple of days ago he weighed in at 2 pounds 2 ounces, but I would like to see him get back to his previous weight which was around 2 pounds 5 ounces. We noticed he is making a good sized dent in his pellet bowl these days but putting on weight is a slow process even with the help of Critical Care. Ronnie's not too big on treats so we can only try to fatten him up with a pinch of oats daily. As he gets closer to his goal weight we will wean him off of the Critical Care.





> For Ringo I feed him oats,pellets (tim and alf) and other little things. When his weight is an issue.





> I think Ronnie's issue has resolved itself for now, but being a bacterial infection I have a feeling that it can come back at any point in the future. If I'm not mistaken, animals cannot build up immunities to bacteria (feel free to correct me if this is wrong). I'm thinking of how some children get chronic ear infections, and assuming it is similar in rabbits. I guess we'll just have to be on high alert for signs of the infection coming back in the future.





> No idea.





> I wonder if Ronnie still carries Pasteurella. I'm not sure if it is gone or if his immune system is just keeping it in check right now. It is worrisome that the vet said that Billy is now a carrier of Pasteurella (even though he shows no symptoms) because Billy will perpetually expose Ronnie (who is known sensitive to the bacteria). I also wonder what the chances are of head tilt bunnies having recurring infections for the rest of their lives.


Pasteurella is something they alway have. Just sometimes they have too much and that is what causes the illness.


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## kherrmann3 (Dec 9, 2008)

Aww, Ronnie looks so much better! It's great to see him hopping around in that video clip! He has a cute little tail!  In Ronnie's eyes, he probably sees the head tilt as a way to get more attention, now lol I'm so happy to see that he is doing well without medicine!


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## Maureen Las (Dec 9, 2008)

I'm glad that Ronnie is doing better although I don't know if a head tilt rabbit is prone to infections the rest of his life. I think if he has other issues (like EC) ) may be prone to other problems but I hope not.


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