# Feed question



## MyBabyBunnies (Jul 22, 2004)

Just wondering, how good is Oxbow rabbit feed? Here's the link:

http://www.oxbowhay.com/showProduct.sp?PRODUCT_NO=44&amp;cat=46


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## BunnyMommy (Jul 22, 2004)

Laura, that's theonly feed that my vet recommends. He's been telling us to getit for Sherman every since we adopted him. 

When we finally run out of the feed thatwe got from the House Rabbit Society we're going to ordersome. He says that their hay is the best too along with theirtreats (says they're more nutritious and less disruptive to bunny'sdigestive system).

Hope this helps!


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jul 22, 2004)

I have to convince my parents to buy it! Fromwhat I can tell it looks excellent, but I have a ton of other feed Ineed to use first. Maybe I can get it next time I need feed lol.


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## BunnyMommy (Jul 22, 2004)

LOL!


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## HankHanky (Jul 22, 2004)

In my personal opinion,

anything that the House Rabbit Society sponsors as a perfect Rabbitdiet is questionable. They are NOT experts ! Except in their own minds.Any Vet that espouses the same, I just figure is in the pocket [blindlyfollowing the advise] of the HRS. Timothy based pelleted rabbit feed isnot the best choice for any rabbit and the feeding of Vegetables is NOTa necessity. That train of thought is what causes most of the dietaryproblems in Pet Rabbits. Believe it or not. I suggest you do your ownresearch rather than follow blindly the HRS. As always, JMPO.

The best of luck nomatter what road you choose.

Dennis,C.V.R.


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## BunnyMommy (Jul 22, 2004)

Hi, Hank.Thanks for your opinion. I actually have done extensiveresearch in the area of bunny nutrition and am well aware that thereare multiple schools of thought in this regard. 

I've found that the House RabbitSociety's nutritional plan works very well for Sherman. He ishappy, healthy, and thriving. I advocate diversity in bunny'sdietary program and the House Rabbit Society's regimen very adequatelyfits this bill. The veterinarian that I've chosen for him isone of the top vets in this state and I trust his opinion implicitly(just for your information, he was very honest and up front with us andtold us that bunny could very well live a long and healthy life on hayand water alone). 

For now, all trains of information beingconsidered, HRS's plan is the one that we're going to gowith. 

--BunnyMommy  (Devoted bunny slave to Sherman)


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## Carolyn (Jul 22, 2004)

Hi Laura,

I _completely_ agree with BunnyMommy. Her advice is notone of opinion, but of research as well as her own very difficultexperience with Sherman.

The House Rabbit Society led you in the right direction. 

Oxbow is an excellent feed and the professionals and long-timecaretakers of rabbits at my animal hospital swear by it.They're certainlynot out to 'line their pockets'.As a matter of fact, that couldn't be further from the truth.The many people I've spoken to at my animal hospital have actuallysteered me away from certain things in order to _save_ memoney. Go Figure!! 

-Carolyn


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## m.e. (Jul 22, 2004)

HankHanky-

Just curious, but why do you say vegetables are not a necessity for rabbits? Certainly it's far more natural than pellets.

~M


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jul 22, 2004)

Caroyln,

That's why I took BunnyMommy's word for the feed. Shealways does her research thoroughly and wants the best possible forSherman. I tried to look up things on the feed but I could find nothingon it besides the kinds of feed they make, lol. I don't really have agood vet that I can just call up and ask these questions, the one Itook them to was about an hour away and me being the irresponsible momI was, never got the number. He was a good vet though, it gave meconfidence to know that he said their neuters were relatively simplyand should not be a problem and he had done many before, it just gaveme the idea that he knew what he was doing. He also took it uponhimself to get Spice tested for a urinary tract infection because I hadbeen worried about him peeing red, he said it was probably nothing butjust wanted to ensure that he was alright for me. Very good vet I mustsay, we got a discount because my brother in law's mom works their withhim so it was a very good deal. Anyways, now that I totally went offtopic I would just like to end on topic (for once, lol). Thank youBunnyMommy and Carolyn for your input and HankHanky for voicing youropinion. 

[align=center]**************************************[/align]
[align=left]m.e.,[/align]
[align=left]Veggies and fruits are high in sugar content and are not atall needed in a rabbits diet for that reason. Sugar is not good forthem, even the natural stuff for fruits and veggies. [/align]


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## Carolyn (Jul 22, 2004)

I'm glad you got it worked out, Laura.

You're absolutely right about BunnyMommy doing her homework before she gives advice. 

I'm glad you have a good vet. It gives you a lot of comfortknowing that you have someone to rely on. Some might claimthat his doing the test of the urinary tract was just to 'line theirpockets with $$', but I don't buy into that at all. When yourrabbits are part of your family as yours are, it gives you piece ofmind to have such things investigated. I completely supportyou and I'm sure you felt better having the procedure done.

When are we going to see more pictures of your boys? 

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

M.E.,

As to the question of vegetables in the diet, Buck summed it up well,as per usual, a while ago after I had asked a British Rabbit Councilmember about the vegetables question.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That vegetable diet thingmentioned is quite a bone ofcontention amongst rabbit fanciers, pet owners, breeders, and evencountries. People in the U.K. are more prone to feed "natural" foods,such as grass, for example or fruits and vegetables because that is thetraditional practice and pelleted feed, such as we are familiar withhere in the U.S., is not as easily obtainable. 


In the U.S., most fanciers, breeders, and laboratories rely on acomplete, balanced, pelleted feed because it is available, inexpensive,convenient for their purposes and it has been a common practice for thepast 20-30 years. Some pet owner organizations, such as the HouseRabbit Society, however, advocate less pellets, or no pellets in thediet and more natural foods as being more healthy. 


The arguement continues with little resolution in sight. I have beenkeeping rabbits on pelleted feed for about eight years now, and havebeen thinking about the question for some time. While I have made noconcrete conclusions yet, I have made a few observations.


The longest lived bunny on record, one Flopsy, a "wild" rabbit that wasadopted by an Australian family and grew to the ripe old age of 18years 10 mos 21 days, ate local grass and hay his owners provided fromtheir farm. They fed no pelleted feed. Although "wild," he was of thesame species as our own domestic buns in the UK and USA. 


Pelleted feed enables rabbits to grow and make weight quickly,efficiently and inexpensively. It addition, it enables them to reachprime condition within a relatively short time. All these attributesare certainly of value to the knowledgeable breeder and fancier, whomight be interested in showing, and the average lab, that wants healthyrabbits,but I don't know that they are particularly interested inrabbits' longevity. In their satisfaction with the practicality ofpelleted feed, I think they might be missing some of positive aspectsof the long term effects of a more natural diet. 


Bottom line, in nature, rabbits eat most any plant life they can gettheir little mouths on, yet they don't seem to live very long, either.Is that due more to to natural predation, or dietary factors? I suspectthe former, but can not conclude, therefore, that their diet isnecessarily the better one. A more "natural" diet just seems morecommon sensical to me, yet I know of rabbits who were ailing with sucha diet, and did perfectly well on a pelleted diet. 


For the time being, I will continue to feed a mostly pelleteddiet,supplemented with timothy hay and some occasional greens, fruitsand vegetables as the more prudent course of action. Moderation is thekey, and not starting the young buns off to soon on the green matter. 

* * * * * * 

-Carolyn


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jul 22, 2004)

*Carolyn wrote: *


> I'm glad you got it worked out, Laura.
> 
> You're absolutely right about BunnyMommy doing her homework before she gives advice.
> 
> ...


Yes Carolyn, some may argue that he was, but I know differently. Heonly charged me for the amount that the test cost to run, not for thelabor! He never got a penny out of running the test and I know that fora fact. He charged next to nothing, if anything for the neuters, maybe$10 or $15 which is _excellent_ considering I hear that most arearound $80 and that's the cheapest! Basically that only coveredthevet student that was assisting him. 

Funny you should ask about picture, I was just thinking about that thismorning and need to ask for my sisters digital camera. I'll try to getit soon!


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## BunnyMommy (Jul 22, 2004)

*Carolyn wrote: *


> * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> 
> M.E.,
> 
> ...




*Very* _well__balanced_ and _insightful_ analysis of the very"controversial" bunny nutritionissue.


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jul 22, 2004)

Oops,can you tell I'm slightly one sided on the issue? Sorry lol, I used tobemore in the middle on all issues and could state bothsides. I'm starting to lose my touch with that since my english teacheralways told me to pick a side and stick with it, lmao.(It'salways the teachers fault!)

P.S.- This board movesfast.


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## BunnyMommy (Jul 22, 2004)

No, no! It's all right, Laura! 

That's exactly the point that we've beenmaking. There are multiple schools of thought out there onthis issue. You just have to pick the one that you feel isbest for your particular bunny. The method that you've beenusing is working very well for Mocha and Spice, so there's nothingwrong with embracing or supporting it. 

P.S. I _know_ about theboard moving so fast! I'm supposed to be asleep right now,but every time I think that I've finished answering posts five more popup!!!


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## BunnyMommy (Jul 22, 2004)

P.S. Toadd to this, once you have the basics down (hay and water), the rest issubject to interpretation and moderation.


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## Carolyn (Jul 22, 2004)

Don't worry about it, Laura.

For the record, you were right in saying that the vegetables have a lot of sugar in them. They do.


-Carolyn


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## BunnyMommy (Jul 22, 2004)

That's right.


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jul 22, 2004)

Have I told you all lately how much I love you guys and this forum?! lol.

P.S.- BunnyMommy shouldn't you be in bed?


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## BunnyMommy (Jul 22, 2004)

Laura, you're sosweet!



Actually I was just thinking, oh,mercy. I need to be in bed. I have to get back upat 3:00 p.m. to start work today at 4:00 p.m. and I've been on thisboard for most of the morning! I _know_ I need to getoff of here! My work hours have changed, but my body isresisting!


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jul 22, 2004)

lol, I was wondering if perhaps Sherman took overthe bed and you were not looking too farward to sleeping in his cage.You can catch up with the board later.


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## Carolyn (Jul 22, 2004)

*MyBunnyBoys wrote: *


> Have I told you all lately how much I love you guys and this forum?! lol.




Back atcha, Dear Heart. You're a treasure, there's no doubt about it. 





-Carolyn


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## HankHanky (Jul 22, 2004)

bunny could verywell live a long and healthy life on hay and water alone).
WRONG! Just because he's a Vet does not make him the bearer of ALL KNOWLEDGE!

your rabbit just might survive on such a diet for a short while. Itmost certainly would not thrive and grow to it's fullpotential. Think about it. How about if your parents fed youonly Cheese and crackers 24/7 year in and year out? Not a verystimulating thought huh.

Rabbits fed a quality pelleted rabbit feed diet do indeed live LONGhappy and even healthier lives than those raised on everything underthe sun. Since it's a matter of opinion and you are quitecontent with disagreeing with me, that is most acceptable to me.However, one cannot argue with facts. The fact is that my rabbits havebeen fed in this fashion since I first acquired them [1989] They havetheir health, have grown to their full potential, bred and reared theiroffspring and continue to thrive to this moment. Barring some unforseencatastrophy: such as a Dog attack, or prevalent dsisease[Like Pasteurella] I dare say they will do as all rabbits do until suchtime as I see fit to end their stay for whatever reason.Sorry, but I just simply cannot accept the HRS's Dietary plan forrabbits. However I care not what enyone wants to feed their rabbit norhow they choose to house them. It is a personal choice. If it works foryou, GO FOR IT! I simply stated my opinion. Nobody is forcedto listen or to follow it. However, I will graciously allow you youropinion if you can accept the fact that I don't agree and allow me mine.

Have a good one, 

Dennis,C.V.R.


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## Carolyn (Jul 22, 2004)

"Hi, Hank. Thanksfor your opinion. I actually have done extensive research inthe area of bunny nutrition and am well aware that there are multipleschools of thought in this regard."


* * * * * * *

...bunny could very well live a long and healthy life on hay and water alone). 
WRONG! Just because he's a Vet does not make him the bearer of ALL KNOWLEDGE!

* * * * * * * 

Bit jumpy today, HankHanky? Fine that you don't agree withBunnyMommy, she wasn't rude in stating her disagreement with you.

Perhaps it's time for yourbran muffin.

-Carolyn


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## m.e. (Jul 22, 2004)

Understood, Dennis. I may not agree with youropinion but I do respect it. I think we all agree that our bunnies wellbeing is what we care about most.

~M


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## Carolyn (Jul 22, 2004)

m.e.,

BunnyMommy was perfectly fine in her statement and did not condemn ordisrespect HankHanky's opinion. BunnyMommyhas morerespectfor people on this board and in the world than almostanyone I know. I don't believe she _once_ was rude or'yelled' (capitalized letters) her opinion or her experienceout. 

She is allowed and _always_ allows people's opinion in a matureand thought-out way.She will nottalk tothem like they're stupid for having them; she simply stated hercase. 

If you notice, she thanked you foryour opinion. 

-Carolyn


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jul 22, 2004)

HankHanky,

Don't you think that was a bit like jumping down BunnyMommys throat? Idon't mean to be rude because your opinion is as welcome as any buteveryone, even BunnyMommy, has the right to believe their vet. None ofus are experts on rabbits, we all have a lot to learn and things arenot proven and we all turn to our vets for opinions on issues we do notknow regarding our bunnies health. The vet may believe a differentpoint of view from you but that does not mean he's wrong. In facthumans could live quite well off of only vegetables but we are not justplant eaters and need meat to live too, rabbits are not like that.Seeing as pellets are hay, a rabbit could probably live well on just ahay and water diet. That's my view.


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## HankHanky (Jul 22, 2004)

NO Carolyn,

I feel there is no reason for you to jump on me! I am not/was notangry. Just stating a fact in the most clear and precise way I knowhow. If I offended anyone, I apologize. But it is the reader [YOU] whotook my post the wrong way. However, I will refrain in the future fromhaving such outbursts. Please accept my humple apologies. Grovel,Grovel, Grovel. Now do you feel better?

Dennis,C.V.R.


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## Carolyn (Jul 22, 2004)

Oh HankHanky, you just don't get it do you?? I'll say it again.

BunnyMommy was perfectly fine in her statement and did notcondemn or disrespect HankHanky's opinion. BunnyMommy has more respectfor people on this board and in the world than almost anyone I know. Idon't believe she _once_ was rude or 'yelled' (capitalizedletters) her opinion or her experience out. 

She is allowed and _always_ allows people's opinion in a matureand thought-out way. She will not talk to them like they're stupid forhaving them; she simply stated her case. 

If you notice, she thanked you for your opinion. She never said youwere "WRONG!...(as you had)", are not welcome, or not allowed to youropinion. 


-Carolyn

P.S. Laura, extremely good points and very well stated.


"...BunnyMommy, has the right to believe their vet. None of usare experts on rabbits, we all have a lot to learn and things are notproven and we all turn to our vets for opinions on issues we do notknow regarding our bunnies health. The vet may believe a differentpoint of view from you but that does not mean he's wrong."

The Doc is as close to an expert that we can get here, even though she won't say it.


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## m.e. (Jul 22, 2004)

> m.e.,
> 
> BunnyMommy was perfectly fine in her statement and did not condemn ordisrespect HankHanky's opinion. BunnyMommy has more respect for peopleon this board and in the world than almost anyone I know. I don'tbelieve she once was rude or 'yelled' (capitalized letters) her opinionor her experience out.
> 
> ...



Um, Carolyn, did you really intend to direct that post at me? Because Iwasn't referring to BunnyMommy. I responded to HankHanky's post and_only_ HankHanky's post. I'm not sure what gave you a differentimpression, but I assure you, I was not even thinking about BunnyMommywhen I made that post.

~M


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## Carolyn (Jul 22, 2004)

Yes, Sorry, m.e.

I did mean that for him, as I copied it down for him again.

My Apologies.

-Carolyn


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## BunnyMommy (Jul 22, 2004)

Goodgrief!  I just woke up to check this thread and... * sigh *

Thanks so much, Carolyn andLaura. You understood perfectly well what I meant and Iappreciate your support. As always, you both are shiningpoints of intelligence, grace, and dignity. 

As you all know, I usually try to takethe path most peacefully traveled, but in this case I think that I needto pull off my shoes and earrings and just jump in ... 

Hank, the only one here who has their furup in a dander is you. Don't try to get snide with Carolynbecause she called you out on it. The tone of your reply wasmost inappropriate, and it was very obvious that despite _your__protestations _that *you* were the one who wasoffended because I disagreed with your*opinion*. I made it *very* clearthat even though I didn't agree with your opinion that I allowed thatit was valid because there are multiple schools of thought in this area... engineered by professionals who are much more highly_trained_, _researched_, _experienced_, and_educated_ than yourself. 

Personally, I'm old enough and matureenough to deflect the rancor in your post. However, I'd hopethat you'd never go after one of the younger members likethis. We've had an excellent rapport on this board up untilthis point and I have no intention of allowing _anyone_ to disruptit. Interpret that however you will.


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## BunnyMommy (Jul 22, 2004)

*HankHanky wrote: *


> NO Carolyn,
> 
> I feel there is no reason for you to jump on me! I am not/was notangry. Just stating a fact in the most clear and precise way I knowhow. If I offended anyone, I apologize. But it is the reader [YOU] whotook my post the wrong way. However, I will refrain in the future fromhaving such outbursts. Please accept my humple apologies. Grovel,Grovel, Grovel. Now do you feel better?
> 
> Dennis,C.V.R.


Let me take the liberty of answering for Carolyn. 

*No*, we *don't* feel betterbecause your apology is *not* sincere. In addition tothis, we didn't take your post in the wrong way. We took itjust exactly as you presented and intended it. 

Please _*do*_ refrain in thefuture from having such outbursts. It's childish, immature,and not representative of the fine quality of members that we havehere.


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## HankHanky (Jul 22, 2004)

YES MOMMY!

Should I go and stand in the corner now?

Oh my gosh oh golly, 

What will I do now?

Have a nice day you all understanding and perfectly perfect examples of humanity!

It's been very! I have learned something today! "NEVER give your opinion unless you are asked for it"!

So be it!

Have a GREAT DAY PEOPLE!

Dennis,C.V.R.:?:shock:


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## BunnyMommy (Jul 22, 2004)

The *SAME* to *YOU*.


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## BunnyMommy (Jul 22, 2004)

And just for therecord ... *PRETENDING* that you don't understand the real issuehere doesn't diminish it to any degree.


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jul 22, 2004)

HankHanky,

Your opinion is always welcome, but next time you may want to re-thinkhow you are going to put it. That post did come accross and rude andjust required a bit more thought as to how others would take it beforeit was posted for the post to have never been an issue. You could havestated that you do not believe the vet was correct and that rabbitsmust have pellets to live happier, but instead you came accross as ifBunnyMommy was a terrible person for listening to her vet. I just hopeyou take this advice and think before you post.


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## Carolyn (Jul 23, 2004)

Agree with you that opinions are welcome; thatsaid, unnecessary rudeness and talking down to someone because theydon't take the same position as you is not.



-Carolyn


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## BunnyMommy (Jul 23, 2004)

Well said.


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## Buck Jones (Jul 23, 2004)

Ahh, HankHanky...me thinks you have met aformidable group of "thinking women" here who will brook nomisconceptions, nor accept the least bit of hostility from a posterregardless of his/her intentions.

Haven't seen you called to task so eloquently and with such finality ina long, long time. LOL! My advice would be atactical, but silent, retreat in the self-preserving interests ofdiscretion before valor,as these ladies might really getserious and launch a fullout attack!*chuckle* *chuckle*

We "old timers" can't dazzle them with fancyfootwork because many of them do their research, so theydon't open their mouths and embarassingly insert foot like some of thedays of yore. Plus, this forum does have quite an Europeanconsistuency,which by predilection and custom prefers a morenatural diet that has historically been followed there for a milenniumor more.

There are discussions worth drawing a line in the sand for.Rabbit diet is not one of them. People kept rabbits quitesuccessfully enough prior to the advent of pelleted feed tocategorically reject any other feeding methodology.

Kind of reminds me of the argument from genetically modified food, andhow good it is supposed to be for mankind. I'll reservejudgment on that issue, too,until I taste a G.M.peach that is not mealy, or a tomato that tastes like the JerseyTomatoes of 40 years ago. Sometimes, new is not better, noris it "good" for the consumer, but eases the way formarketing and merchandizing interests.

Given an equal opportunity to choose between a natural diet and apelleted diet, I wonder what the average rabbit's preference wouldbe? Have you any clue?

Buck


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jul 24, 2004)

Us women have to stick together.


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## Carolyn (Jul 24, 2004)

Carolyn wrote:


> Agree with you that opinions are welcome; that said, unnecessaryrudeness and talking down to someone because they don't take the sameposition as you is not.
> 
> 
> 
> -Carolyn




Hi Buck,

On a larger scale, "Do unto others as you would have done unto you."

HankHanky got back what he gave out and he didn't like it. 

He still has not the decency or class to apologize, but uses sarcasm instead. 

* * * * * * *

BunnyMommy, you can speak for me any time.

-Carolyn


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## HankHanky (Jul 24, 2004)

Given an equal opportunity to choose between anatural diet and a pelleted diet, I wonder what the average rabbit'spreference would be? Have you any clue?
Buck.

Well hello there Buck,

you have know me for quite sometime now and know that I have NEVERcandy-coated my opinion. I have seen quite clearly that theseformidable though they may be MOB of "Ladies" seem to take everything Isay as a personal attack on their poerson. Unless, by some unknownstroke of fate? I happen to either agre with them or I come up with thecorrect and right answer for some particular problem that has beenbaffling them. [As I most often do] I have been STOPPED dead in mytracks, as I have come to realize that there is no appeasing the crowdif you will not bend to the breaking point to their retorts. As I havestated before, everthing I state is my opinion and nothing more nornothing less. I may be vehement in my opinions, but that is because Iknow that it/they work! I have been doing as I say for quite a fewyears and my Rabbits are happy, healthy and they prosper. However, as Ihave also stated: I do not care particularly what anyone chooses tofeed their rabbit or how they choose to house them. After all, it'stheir rabbit. I just state my case/opinion in my own inimitablefashion. I have always done this and I always will. I post my opinionsas they come out, I have now guide that I follow I just go with theflow. With this said: like the leaves on the trees in the fall, I willtake my leave.

Have a good one.

Dennis,C.V.R.


Photo taken at Greene Cty. Youth-fair 2004


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## BunnyMommy (Jul 24, 2004)

The house of the loud talker, leaks. - _African proverb Zulu Tribe_


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## Carolyn (Jul 24, 2004)

"I refuse to get into a battle of wits with the unequipped." -Anonymous 

As to what HankHanky says, 
"Jimmy cracked corn..."



-Carolyn


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## BunnyMommy (Jul 24, 2004)




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## MyBabyBunnies (Jul 24, 2004)

*HankHanky wrote:*


> Given an equal opportunity to choose between a natural dietand a pelleted diet, I wonder what the average rabbit's preferencewould be? Have you any clue?
> 
> Dennis,C.V.R.



I do not mean to start things up by any means but this statement has mea bit stumped. Are you meaning to suggest that the diet a rabbit picksis the best one for them? If that is what your intended point was, Iwould beg to differ if you were trying to support your natural diettheory with that. Much like children, when given thechance tohave a "treat" (fruits and veggies, etc.) they would probably jump atthe chance to have them instead of nutritional pellets. Now I wouldjust like to say I am for the pellets, hay, and water diet theory butthat does not mean that the natural diet may be better but no one canprove either way for now.

I do not believe I ever asked you to "sugar-coat" your opinions, Isimply asked for them to be delivered in a more tasteful manner. Wasthat too much to ask? I'm trying to be as mature about this as I can, Imay only be a teenager but I do know a few things, but you keep missingthe point.

Now that I'm done, I hope it was not taken offensively, I tried to state my opinion as tastefully as possible.

Good day.


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## BunnyMommy (Jul 24, 2004)

*MyBunnyBoys wrote:*


> , I may only be a teenager but I do know a few things, butyou keep missing the point.




Out of the mouths of babes ...


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jul 24, 2004)

Oops.

BunnyMommypointed out that the part I quoted was indeed HankHanky quoting Buck,sorry. I think I missed something, lol. Sorry Buck andHankHanky!


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## Buck Jones (Jul 24, 2004)

Oh, Dennis! You're making amountain out of a molehill. I don't think anyonetook umbrage with your "opinion," but in the terms and manner in whichit was couched. There is nothing wrong in pleasantlydisagreeing and treating people as you would hope they would treatyou. This forum has been singularly free of the kinds ofantagonisms that prevailed over at the other Rabbits Forum and,frankly, I think it is the better for it!

You avoided my major question. Do you have any idea whichtype of diet the average rabbit would be more likely to choose betweena pelleted and a "natural" one? Do you know of any study orwork done to indicate the preference for one or another?

In some of my older rabbit books, a lot of time, energy, and expensewas involved in creating a palatableration for rabbits to eatfrom a myriad of agricultural sources, many of which would no longer beavailable to the general public. Seems like everybody hadtheir own 'formula" for what worked. Obviously, pellets havemade that no longer necessary, but I'll bet you rabbits would havepreferred the former.

At the risk of appearing anthropomorphic, I would think it would belike the difference between eating freeze-dried food and fresh, orpowdered eggs or real. Using Guinness Book of World Records,Flopsy, as an example of a healthy, long lived rabbit, some of theresponses from his owner that I received regarding the composition ofhis diet were: 

_Rye grass &amp; clover. Baled meadow hay....He was fedsilver beet &amp; lettuce mainly with carrots &amp; apples as asupplement. Lettuce and carrots were the favorites._


personal correspondence dated 5-12-03, from Mrs. TriciaWalker of Tasmania, Australia.


There is no doubt some modern day rabbit fanciers would find issueswith that diet, yet Flopsy lived to the ripe old age of 18 years, 10months, twenty-nine days. Cause of death..._Benign pituarytumor &amp; old age!_

Although I feed a pelleted diet, I can find no record of a pelleted fedrabbit approaching that kind of life span. Food(pun intended)for thought, eh?

Buck


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jul 24, 2004)

Good point Buck. I think someone needs to conductan experiment to find out lmao. Feed half of their bunnies a naturaldiet and the other half a pelleted diet and find out which one works.Even then I doubt that it would ever settle all arguements but I thinkwe're all a bit curious.


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## Buck Jones (Jul 24, 2004)

Conversely, MyBunnyBoys, no one can say with anycertainty that they would always pick the worst food for themselvesnutritionally. In the wild, our domestic buns eat most anyvegetable matter they can get their mouths on, although they do havepreferences for succulent, young plants and grasses.

Their short lives are largely due to predation and other factors, not a natural diet, it would seem.

I'm with you. I feed a pelleted diet. I'm justsaying my mind is still open about its efficacy due to the questions Istill have about it.

Buck


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jul 24, 2004)

*Buck Jones wrote:*


> Conversely, MyBunnyBoys, no one can say with any certaintythat they would always pick the worst food for themselvesnutritionally. In the wild, our domestic buns eat most anyvegetable matter they can get their mouths on, although they do havepreferences for succulent, young plants and grasses.
> 
> Their short lives are largely due to predation and other factors, not a natural diet, it would seem.
> 
> ...


Quite true Buck. I'm stating from experience, my rabbits would muchrather have treats (sugar filled yogurt drops)then thehealthy stuff, lmao. But it's a very good point, makes you wonder! Itoo keep an open mind about it, but for now I still agree with apelleted diet. My mind is never closed to alternatives, I justgenerally stick to the side I agree with until there is some sort ofevidence of otherwise. In a couple years I could be completely againsta pelleted diet for all I know. Considering that a rabbits life is soshort in the wild because of predators, there is no way to prove that anatural diet is the best either. You are right though, noone can be sure.


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## BunnyMommy (Jul 24, 2004)

Buck, this is aneloquently written and thoughtfully presented post (asalways). I simplyadore intelligence and insight. 

You have an excellent grasp of thedifferent schools of thought in regards to the issue of natural vs.pelleted diet and stimulate very balanced ruminations andthought-provoking conversations on such. Exchanging ideas anddebating with you is always a joy.


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jul 24, 2004)

You can't argue with Buck, he's always right!lol, not fair. It seems that he is debating with himself when he statesboth sides of the issue, but it's great fun to read even if you can'twin your point! lol.


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## BunnyMommy (Jul 24, 2004)

*MyBunnyBoys wrote:*


> You can't argue with Buck, he's always right! lol, not fair.It seems that he is debating with himself when he states both sides ofthe issue, but it's great fun to read even if you can't win your point!lol.


Well, it's because he has an open mindwhich is always a mark of true intelligence. Buck is verywell read and despite the fact that he has substantial evidence assurety to his opinions he is always open to an opposing point of view.

In addition, even if he differs withanother's viewpoint he is respectful and courteous in presenting hisargument and allows for the other person's right to both have andexpress their own opinion. This is the spirit of true debate.


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## BunnyMommy (Jul 24, 2004)

If I could add justone more thing ...  There's an Iranian proverbthat states "Doubt is the key to knowledge." In other words,even with the most firmly held opinion there should be just a littlewindow of doubt to allow for the possibility of error. Inthis way, even though one may be steadfast in his/her opinions (whichis in no way a bad thing) there is always a fail-safe in operation sothat truth is never missed when it presents itself. 

Thanks so much, Buck, for being the wonderful example that you are.


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jul 24, 2004)

Yes Buck, I whole heartedly agree with BunnyMommy. And it's always a pleasure losing a debate to you.


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## BunnyMommy (Jul 24, 2004)

Still one moreteeny, tiny little thought ...  (I'm now starting to just love thisthread!). 

This is why I embrace the House RabbitSociety's nutritional guidelines. Like Buck, I've doneextensive research on this issue and, as stated before, there aremultiple schools of thought in this regard, all of which in my humbleopinion have some element of virtue therein. I chose HRS'splan because it seems to incorporate all of the major facets of thedifferent schools of thought and blend them in moderation.(In my lifetime I've found that the surest path to success usually liesnot in extremes but in moderation. )

In HRS's plan there's a little somethingfor everybody on both sides of the coin (natural vs.pelleted). This is simply my preference for my particular bunand in no way invalidates the preferences of others in thisregard.


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## BunnyMommy (Jul 24, 2004)

*MyBunnyBoys wrote: *


> And it's always a pleasure losing a debate to you.


LOL! I know what youmean! Buck's a gladiator in the school of debate!


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## Carolyn (Jul 24, 2004)

BunnyMommy wrote:


> If I could add just one more thing... ?? There's an Iranian proverb that states "Doubt is the key toknowledge."? In other words, even with the most firmly held opinionthere should be just a little window of doubt to allow for thepossibility of error.? In this way, even though one may be steadfast inhis/her opinions (which is in no way a bad thing) there is always afail-safe in operation so that truth is never missed when it presentsitself.
> 
> Thanks so much, Buck, for being the wonderful example that you are.?




"The important thing is to never stop questioning." -Albert Einstein


* * * * * * * * * * * * *

Laura, 

I loved the comment you made about how he puts out two sides of anissue which makes his posts so delightfully informative and fun.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *

To Buck,

"No body does it better...Baby, you're The Best!" 


-Carolyn


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jul 24, 2004)

You make a good point BunnyMommy because myrabbits get a much more natural diet thatn I realized before. They getfresh grass all day long when they are outside, raspberry leaves, andveggies when from my parents on a nearly daily basis. But they also getthe recommended amount of pellets and always have access to timothyhay. I think that leaves me somewhere in the middle of the natural andpelleted diets. My rabbits seem to be thriving on this diet.


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## HankHanky (Jul 24, 2004)

To whom it may concern:

BunnyMommy,My Bunny Boys,Buck & oh yes Carolyn!

and anyone else who has come to the final conclusion that I am the ***of the WORLD! You are welcome to your opinion however, just as youare welcome to your opinions by me. So should I be allowed to have myopinions even if you do feel they are posted in a RUDE and unacceptablemanner. I will from now on post with nary an unacceptabe word orexpression, but state only in a HAPPY-FACED tone of voice. As for thepowers that be, I am in awe of how quickly she has become the expert ofthe world of rabbits. If this offended anyone it was not meant to. Ijust had to clear the air. I'll be back.

Bye now.

Dennis,C.V.R.


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jul 24, 2004)

No one ever said anything to that effect aboutyou HankHanky. Will you please refrain from using that language on thisboard. This is a family oriented board and there are members of allages here that I'm sure would not be happy to see that or that theirchildren may be seeing that on such a nice message board.


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## BunnyMommy (Jul 24, 2004)

*MyBunnyBoys wrote:*


> You make a good point BunnyMommy because my rabbits get amuch more natural diet thatn I realized before. They get fresh grassall day long when they are outside, raspberry leaves, and veggies whenfrom my parents on a nearly daily basis. But they also get therecommended amount of pellets and always have access to timothy hay. Ithink that leaves me somewhere in the middle of the natural andpelleted diets. My rabbits seem to be thriving on this diet.


Yes, Laura, when you think of it that way it really makes sense.


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## Buck Jones (Jul 24, 2004)

You all will give me a swelled head!Actually, I hadn't thought of this thread as a debate. I justlooked at it as a format to advance my own thoughts and questions in alogical manner, hopefully, that might lead to greater insights from allyour own comments.

At the risk of offending you, MyBunnyboys, it was never myintentionto"win" anything, whatsoever.After your lavish compliments, I feel guilty for disagreeing withyoufor whatever reason(s). Yourrationaleto pellet feed surely parallels that of my own, but if the jury wereever to come in on the question, I would have no problem to eliminateone form of diet for another. 

Perhaps, BunnyMommy, it takes one to know one, eh? I'vestated publicly that I was impressed with your own reasoning and theextent of your rabbit expertise insuch a relatively shortspan of time.

Carolyn, you are certainly too kind, for you do know me and us wellenough to not be quite aseffusive with your praise.You've seen the, "real thing."

Dennis, there you go, getting all angry and defensive, and vulgar toboot! Don't you understand, it is not your opinion(s) thatincites the reactions to you that you see above? No one herehas the intention to insult you, but if the shoe fits, and you mustwear it, be my guest. There is little more that can be doneto dissuade you of that belief, I'm afraid.

As for the back-handed comment: "_As for the powers that be, I am inawe of how quickly she has become the expert of the world ofrabbits._" the only thing I can say is, Yes, I, too, am in awe ofthe rapid learning curve of the "powers that be;" but, you know, onehas to give credit where credit is due when it is deserving and bemagnanimous about it as well, instead of just carping withsnide remarks. When someone is putting out good information,it remains good information regardless of how, where, or where it wasobtained. I can find no fault here on this forum in thatrespect.

Dennis, one of the things I learned as a teacher is that someofmy students may later return, knowing more than I everdid. That to me, was a perfect testimonial that I had done agood job initially, and maybe it was my turn to learn something fromthe student. No one "knows" it all, and if someone claimssuch, there is every reason to disbelieve him or her.

You and I both know that if the "powers that be" chose to exercisethose "powers" out of pure chagrin and/or malice, your time here wouldbe short lived. I think a lot of judgment has been exercisedheretofore in that respect, so don't add insult to injury by adoptingan even more bellicose mood.

If you peruse the archives here, you will see a rapidlearning curve among many posters here that certainly has me in awe oftheir capabilities. The fact I've been at it longer than manyof the others, doesn't preclude me from learning from them.Most people here are like family and right now, in myopinion, you are acting like a bull in a china shop. This isnot about "beating" the other guy or woman. These are nottrolls, so try to relax and be less boisterous about it all.

In spite of what you may think/believe, I do consider you a good friend.

Buck


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jul 24, 2004)

*Buck Jones wrote:*


> At the risk of offending you, MyBunnyboys, it was never myintentionto"win" anything, whatsoever.After your lavish compliments, I feel guilty for disagreeing withyoufor whatever reason(s). Yourrationaleto pellet feed surely parallels that of my own, but if the jury wereever to come in on the question, I would have no problem to eliminateone form of diet for another.
> 
> Buck


No problem at all Buck. You have never and I'm sure you will neveroffend me. I'm glad to know there are knowlegable people on this boardthat are opened minded and can state both sides of the case maturelyand can support both sides. I was just teasing but it doesn't bother meat all. I never really lost, I just never really won! lol,don't worry about it, debating things gets the best points out in theend and as I said, it made me realize that I am indeed sitting on thefence with this issue even if I do support the pellet diet, it justtook a bit of thought to realise my boys get some of both worlds, gofigure, lol.


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## Elf Mommy (Jul 24, 2004)

I found Oxbow todayat the feed store I go to. It was the same price as the supermarketfood, and I'm sure much better quality. They didn't have Woody Petthough. I was rather disappointed.


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## BunnyMommy (Jul 24, 2004)

Oh, ElfMommy, hatsoff to you! I can't find Oxbow in the stores here.By all reports, it's a superior feed. Please let us know howElf accepts it. 

Sorry that you couldn't find the WoodyPet.  It truly is a wonderful product.


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## BunnyMommy (Jul 24, 2004)

Buck, you alwayshave been and always will be a representative ofof all thatis good, right, and virtuous. * HUGE hug * 

Be assured that I humbly hold you in thehighest and utmost respect and feel privileged to bask in the sphere ofyour knowledge and wisdom.


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jul 24, 2004)

*BunnyMommy wrote:*


> Buck, you always have been andalways will be a representative ofof all that is good, right,and virtuous. * HUGE hug *
> 
> Be assured that I humbly hold you in thehighest and utmost respect and feel privileged to bask in the sphere ofyour knowledge and wisdom.


I must whole heartedly agree with BunnyMommy on this!


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## Elf Mommy (Jul 24, 2004)

Absolutely! Cheers to Buck!


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## Carolyn (Jul 24, 2004)

Thank you Buck. 

-Carolyn


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## Buck Jones (Jul 24, 2004)

Elf Mommy,

Query the Woodypet company for the nearest retailer in your area by linking to:

http://www.woodypet.com/about.html

Someone near you must carry it.

Buck


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## Carolyn (Jul 25, 2004)

BunnyMommy,

I didn't think you could get it. Sounds like you're using Woody Pet now.  

Buck must have stock in that company.

-Carolyn


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## BunnyMommy (Jul 25, 2004)

Oh, yes,Carolyn! That was the day that I posted we drove an hour anda half both ways to get it ... and then when we got home Shermanwouldn't even give me any sugar! :X

It's an EXCELLENT product! Goododor control, economical, absorbent ... I could go on and on.

I appreciate you and Buck telling me about it!


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jul 25, 2004)

I think Buck has sold more Woody Pet litter than any advertising has for it, lmao.

Ever seen those commericals where the guy goes around giving out saladsand food from some restaraunt ( I forget which) and when people ask ifhe works there, he says he's unofficial? Well If you know what I'mtalking about, you will agree that's just like Buck and the Woody Pet!lmao.


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## BunnyMommy (Jul 25, 2004)

Laura, you're talking about that Wendy's commercial. BOL! 

It _is_ a _great_ product though.


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jul 25, 2004)

I'll take your word on it, I don't know as I haveno use for it at all. My boys have a wire bottomed cage and the onlyplace we use bedding is the insulated wood boxes but they don't use itas a potty. I'll keep it in mind if I ever end up having house petsthough!

Yes, the Wendy's commercials! Isn't it _exactly_ like Buck?! lol.


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## Carolyn (Jul 25, 2004)

An hour and a half, BunnyMommy?! :shock: You must've loaded up. 

I always call the TSC (Tractor Supply Company store) before I gobecause people buy it by the pallets here. Once when I went to pick itup, they were sold out and didn't have any in their warehouse. They hadto wait another couple of weeks to restock their supply.

It's made in Canada. 

-Carolyn


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jul 25, 2004)

Surrey, B.C. to be exact. I've probably been there lmao.


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## RaspberrySwirl (Jul 25, 2004)

*BunnyMommy wrote:*


> Buck, this is an eloquentlywritten and thoughtfully presented post (as always).I simply adore intelligenceand insight.
> 
> You have an excellent grasp of thedifferent schools of thought in regards to the issue of natural vs.pelleted diet and stimulate very balanced ruminations andthought-provoking conversations on such. Exchanging ideas anddebating with you is always a joy.





> Great mindsthink alike BunnyMommy! I was just reading Bucks post (amlate getting in on this thread and must say I'm not sorry) and wasthinking to myself "I'm going tomake sure Buckknowswhat I think of hiscommunication skills".





> Buck, canonly imagine from the posts I've read in the last weeks, what kind ofman you must be, but my imagination is a good one.  I thinkthose who know you, and call you friend, must consider themselves veryblessed. You always speak with knowledge, humor and warmth,even in a situation as heated as this. The world is a betterplace with those such as you. ~Raspberry


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## Loz n Ebony (Jul 26, 2004)

*Elf Mommy wrote: *


> Absolutely! Cheers to Buck!


OMG ELFMOMMY THAT IS TOO COOL!!!


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## BunnyMommy (Jul 26, 2004)

I know. Elf Mommy has the _coolest_ graphics!


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## Buck Jones (Jul 26, 2004)

Thanks for the compliment, Raspberry.I'll take'em late, too, not toworry!



Buck


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## CuddlesMom (Sep 18, 2004)

I was wanting to changecuddles foodover to oxbow i found it in a store by me....i think cuddles is about 8mo now. Do you gradually change them over to a new food to let theresystems get use to the change?


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## Carolyn (Sep 18, 2004)

I was advised by my breeder, CuddlesMom, and then by Buck Jones, to introduce the feed gradually. 

I follow that line of instruction. Other's have said it doesn't matter, but I do it anyway.

-Carolyn


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## klw6801 (Apr 27, 2005)

I need some help. I have acquired 4wild baby bunnies that are about a week old or so. I am currentlyfeeding them kitten milk, about every 4-6 hours and they are doing ok,but they don't want to eat. Can someone tell me what to dowith them?


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## ayglnu13 (Apr 27, 2005)

Hello here is a link to a thread aboutwild baby bunnies  It is actually illegal to keep wild babies; youwill need to find a wildlife rehabilitate as quick as you can.

http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=5538&forum_id=1

If you have any more questions please feel free to PM me or post again 

~Amy


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