# Tort color question



## sheandg (May 3, 2010)

I bred my fuzzy lops the buck is orange and the doe is broken tort black. I have 3 kits that are just 5 days old and it looks like I have a broken orange and 2 solid torts but one has a dark belly and the other is light and was told the one with the light belly might be a tan pattern tort. What does that mean? Is there another term for the color? I'm trying to find info on it. Not sure if it is a showable color.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (May 3, 2010)

Hmm... Maybe the person who told you meant Lilac Tort? Or even blue tort? 

Is the darker one a black tort? 

Emily


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## OakRidgeRabbits (May 4, 2010)

I'll try to make this as simple as possible!

Orange is an agouti color. Other agoutis include chestnut, opal, fawn, etc. Otters (tan patterns) are also genetically agouti.

Tort is a shaded color, as are sable point, smoke pearl, seal, siamese sable, etc.

As a general rule, you should not do agouti x tort crosses because it can give you "shagoutis"- shaded agoutis.

A "tan pattern tort" is called a tort otter. Tort otters are possible from a tort x agouti breeding and are unshowable, although you could use them in a breeding program. Agoutis are characterized by light circles around the eyes, lacing on the ear, and a light belly.

I hope that helps!


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## Starlight Rabbitry (May 4, 2010)

Technically speaking, Orange is a non-extention agouti. It has 2 colors on the hair shaft opposed to 3.


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## bunnybunbunb (May 4, 2010)

Pictures would help.

It might be an otter but I think it may be something else.

I have a question, if it is otter that means the orange is Aat. How is it possible to get selfs from a non-self carrying rabbit? Impossible, I believe, since to get selfs, solid self tort is in this instance, they would need the self -a- from both parents, not just one. So that means the baby can not geneticly be otter... right?


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## TinysMom (May 4, 2010)

I had a tort otter once that was orange. I was shocked. I'd bred two black otters together - it turned out that I got in the litter of four - a black otter, a chocolate otter, a blue otter AND the tort otter.

I never was able to figure it out - but that is what other breeders told me she was.

I forget what we named the black otter - but the others were "cookies 'n Cream", "blueberries 'n Cream", and "Peaches 'n Cream".


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## OakRidgeRabbits (May 4, 2010)

*"Technically speaking, Orange is a non-extention agouti."

*Remember how I said I was making this as simple as possible?But thank you for the clarification for those of us more versed in genetics! 

*"I have a question, if it is otter that means the orange is Aat. How is it possible to get selfs from a non-self carrying rabbit? Impossible, I believe, since to get selfs, solid self tort is in this instance, they would need the self -a- from both parents, not just one. So that means the baby can not geneticly be otter... right?*"

I don't really understand what you're asking, but here are the genotypes for tort, orange, otter, and self (black):
*
Black Tort: aa B_ C_ D_ ee*
*Orange: **A_ B_ C_ D_ ee
Black Otter:* *at_ B_ C_ D_ E_*
*Black: **aa B_ C_ D_ E_

*You're right, you wouldn't get selfs. She got orange, tort, and tort otter (agouti, shaded, shagouti). Tort is genetically more like a self than shaded, but it's not a self color.
*

*


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## Starlight Rabbitry (May 4, 2010)

*OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *


> *"Technically speaking, Orange is a non-extention agouti."
> 
> *Remember how I said I was making this as simple as possible?But thank you for the clarification for those of us more versed in genetics!
> *
> ...



Don't really know if you are being rude or not but I figured that I ought to tell you that I am NOT versed in genetics, I only understand the basics of where the colors fit into groups. I thought I was being helpful for this person in understanding that orange is not totally an agouti it just has less rings. 

Excuse me for trying to be helpful even though I am not any expert. 

Sharon


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## pamnock (May 4, 2010)

*TinysMom wrote: *


> I had a tort otter once that was orange. I was shocked. I'd bred two black otters together - it turned out that I got in the litter of four - a black otter, a chocolate otter, a blue otter AND the tort otter.


The tort otter is just a non-extension otter. It's likely that it was probably a chocolate tort otter (they are often mistaken for orange).


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## sheandg (May 4, 2010)

thanks for all the info. 

Here are the kits. They are just 6 days old so still hard to tell the color ( for me at least) Maybe I'm wrong on all accounts with the colors I think.

I was thinking the broken is an orange and the 2 others looked tort but maybe the lighter one is orange?? I tried to get natural lighting....


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## OakRidgeRabbits (May 4, 2010)

*Starlight Rabbitry wrote: *


> *OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *"Technically speaking, Orange is a non-extention agouti."
> ...


:? I was just joking.

Genetics can be very difficult to understand, so I was initially just listing some basics. So by saying that, I was just jokingly pointing out that I just had not included it inititally, for fear of confusing those who may not understand what nonextension and such meant.


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## bunnybunbunb (May 4, 2010)

When I said what I said I was meaning the "agouti" parent could not be agouti, carry otter and give an "aa" baby. Torts have both lower case self a so I consider it a self in some ways.

So, if the "agouti" parent is really otter that means none of the babies are agouti. From the pictures I can see the broken orange baby is really broken tort otter. It's tort color is to dark to be orange.

Now we have all that figured out! You gots a tort, tort otter and broken tort otter.


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## sheandg (May 4, 2010)

So is the buck I have an orange or is it an otter of some sort?


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## bunnybunbunb (May 4, 2010)

He has to be an otter of some sort, agouti just is not possible from the what he produced with a tort. Pam said chocolate tort otter.

Do you have a picture of him?


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## bunnybunbunb (May 4, 2010)

HBB's Evan? He looks like a black tort otter to me.


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## sheandg (May 4, 2010)

here he is. He just got his first leg last week......


the doe I used has all tort black on both sides for the last 3 generations


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## bunnybunbunb (May 4, 2010)

Tort can not hide agout or otter so odviously it is from him. The otter gene lightens torts up(I personally am not sure why, anyone else want to explain?) so that is why he is much lighter.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (May 5, 2010)

Why can't he be orange? You can get orange, tort, and tort otter from an orange x tort cross.


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## pamnock (May 5, 2010)

*OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *


> Why can't he be orange? You can get orange, tort, and tort otter from an orange x tort cross.



You wouldn't be able to get all 3 from a orange x tort cross as bunnybunbunb brought up in an earlier post (below). 

To get torts in a orange x tort litter, the orange would have to be Aa. To get tort otters, the orange would have to be Aat. He can't be both, so both tort and tort otter would not both be possible in this cross. You can of course, get orange in the cross.

However, the fact that a tort otter can mascarade as an orange can further complicate the issue when orange isn't really orange A, but tort otter at.

(hope this makes sense - woke up with a migrane this morning and having difficulty processing information)



bunnybunbunb* wrote: *


> Pictures would help.
> 
> It might be an otter but I think it may be something else.
> 
> I have a question, if it is otter that means the orange is Aat. How is it possible to get selfs from a non-self carrying rabbit? Impossible, I believe, since to get selfs, solid self tort is in this instance, they would need the self -a- from both parents, not just one. So that means the baby can not geneticly be otter... right?


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## sheandg (May 5, 2010)

so depending on how these 3 kits turn out colorwise will answer if this buck is truly an orange or a tort otter. It must be very hard to tell since he has been on the show table a few times and his color has never been brought up.

Right now looking at the kits does it look like I have tort otters?

What a bummer if he is a tort otter since I bought him wanting an orange and he wasn't cheap;(

well that dark one looks like a tort black.......so the other 2 would have to be orange?? since I can't have a tort and tort otter in the same litter right?


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## jcottonl02 (May 5, 2010)

WHHOOOOSSSH back to A level Genetics. Not fun. LOL

Jen


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## bunnybunbunb (May 5, 2010)

The babies are not agouti, so they are not orange, they are tort otter. From the two otters in the litter it shows daddy is not orange, but truely otter. Which means he has poor coloring for his genetics.

Orange:
A-B-C-D-ee

Black Tort Otter:
at-B-C-D-ee

Sire:
ataB-C-D-ee

We know he is ata because he has gave both self(shaded, non-agouti) and otter.

This is why breeders should learn color genetics, then the breeder you bought from may not had sold you something you did not need.

You have a Black Tortioseshell, Black? Tortioseshell Otter, and Broken Black? Tortioseshell Otter.

Do not quote me on them all being black based, I am just assuming.

Edit: To answer your question -

"well that dark one looks like a tort black.......so the other 2 would have to be orange?? since I can't have a tort and tort otter in the same litter right?"

No, you can not get agouti, otter and self all in the same litter if one of the parents is self. It means your buck is not agouti. To get all three colors one of the parents must be otter carrying self (ata) and the other agouti carrying self (Aa).

I hope I have not gave you headaches with all the genetics talk


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## sheandg (May 5, 2010)

I'm so confused..... When I read pam's post I understand it as there is no way you could get a tort black and a tort otter in the same litter. So the kits couldn't be tort and tort otter. I am either not reading something right or my brain isn't funtioning right now...... Help my brain understand


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## pamnock (May 5, 2010)

Orange x Tort

A_ x aa

The gene in question is the unknown gene of the orange. If it is indeed an orange, it must have at least 1 "A". (We'll assume it's a real orange A) 

A tort is always homozygous aa. 

If the pair is to produce torts in the litter, the orange would HAVE to be Aa.

If the pair is to produce tort otter in the litter, the orange would HAVE to be Aat.

But - the orange can't be both Aa and Aat, so can't throw both tort and tort otter when bred to a tort.

If the orange wereactually a tort otter itself (at a) -(we know it would have to have "a" to produce torts we see in the litter), then it could indeed produce both tort and tort otter in a litter when bred with a tort.


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## sheandg (May 5, 2010)

so the buck is a tort otter..........right is that what the conclusion is?


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## pamnock (May 5, 2010)

From the photo, he _appears_ to be a tort otter. That would be odd for an AFL because otter is not an accepted variety - _but_ not so odd for a fuzzy "holland" lop where otter _is_ an accepted variety.



A little searching online indicated a good possibility of the buck actually being an otter. I found some HBB Hollands as well as HBB AFL otters.


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## sheandg (May 5, 2010)

I guess I'll see how these kits color looks in a few weeks..... I hope it is a tort and 2 oranges

is there anything to bred this buck to that would confirm for sure he is otter or orange? Since tort otter is hard to tell from orange it might be hard to know if these kits are orange or tort otter.


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## pamnock (May 5, 2010)

Breed the buck to an EE black to see if you get any agoutis in the litter. If he's actually an otter, you'll get a lot of otters popping up in litters. He's either A a or at a.


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## Blaze_Amita (May 5, 2010)

someone ought ot publish a book on genetics, I've always just kind of guessed at the coloring


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## pamnock (May 6, 2010)

*Blaze_Amita wrote: *


> someone ought ot publish a book on genetics, I've always just kind of guessed at the coloring



There are a number of good books on rabbit coat color genetics that have been published!

Here's a comprehensive on-line listing of genotype http://www.thenaturetrail.com/Rabbit-Coat-Color-Chart.htm

I also have genotypes and photos on my sitenockrabbits.com

Glenna Huffmon has a number of books out http://www.debmark.com/rabbits/genetics.htm

Also some books on this site (Rabbit Production has some excellent genetics info as well) http://www.klubertanz.com/images/Klubertanz_Books46-48.pdf

You can also do a search for "rabbit genetics" on Amazon.com and find a lot more books.


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## Blaze_Amita (May 7, 2010)

wow! Thanks Pam!


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## sheandg (May 13, 2010)

here are a few updated pics of their colors.....


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## hbbuneez (Jul 26, 2010)

I know this is an old thread. After I read it I would like to add to the conversation. I raise American Fuzzy Lops and (did)raise Holland lops-which someone pointed out. It is offensive to me that it was insinuated that I crossed the hollands into the fuzzies which is where the otter gene came from. To set the record straight I do not cross the 2 breeds. There actually are Fuzzy Lop otters. The color has had a cod held on it for years now, we are on our 3rd person with the cod. 
If Sheila or anyone on this group would have asked me to join in this thread I could have given you some insight as to Evans color. I have worked with the tan pattern gene almost as long as I have raised rabbits-14 years.


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## TinysMom (Jul 26, 2010)

*hbbuneez wrote: *


> I know this is an old thread. After I read it I would like to add to the conversation. I raise American Fuzzy Lops and (did)raise Holland lops-which someone pointed out. It is offensive to me that it was insinuated that I crossed the hollands into the fuzzies which is where the otter gene came from. To set the record straight I do not cross the 2 breeds. There actually are Fuzzy Lop otters. The color has had a cod held on it for years now, we are on our 3rd person with the cod.
> If Sheila or anyone on this group would have asked me to join in this thread I could have given you some insight as to Evans color. I have worked with the tan pattern gene almost as long as I have raised rabbits-14 years.


I have read through this thread three times and can't see what offended you - but I did want to say "welcome to the forum" - we have lots of fun here. 

Its nice to hear that there is a COD on the color, etc - that is great you have a third person with it now.

And once again - welcome to the forum - hope you stay and participate!

Peg


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## hbbuneez (Jul 27, 2010)

This sentence by bunnybunbunb is one thing that I find offensive-
This is why breeders should learn color genetics, then the breeder you bought from may not had sold you something you did not need.
Why would you say that about a breeder when you dont even know what has transpired between the breeder and the buyer? 

Also, Pam googled my rabbitry and discovered that I had fuzzy lops and otter holland lops. For what reason would you post that? Yes I did have otter hollands, no I never bred them into my fuzzies, in fact in 2005 I got rid of all my otter holland lops. 

I guess I feel as tho some people on this forum were questioning my ethics. For the record I have spent alot of time with Sheila even before she bought Evan. I was trying to help her improve her fuzzies. Guess that wasnt worth mentioning by her. Deb


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## hbbuneez (Jul 28, 2010)

I went back and looked at Evans pedigree to refresh my memory why I had put him down as smutty orange. Here is how I came to the conclusion of him being a poor orange. His mom is an orange out of a blue otter and a broken chestnut, her sister was a tort otter. I bred Evans sister to a bc tort buck, I got a bc tort, and an orange(Evan). I bred to her a black to make sure she was an orange and she had 2 chestnuts. So she is Aa and Evans father is a bc tort so he is aa. No way Evan has a tan pattern gene. If I had been given a chance I could have very easily proven it. Deb


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## TinysMom (Jul 28, 2010)

Thank you for your clarification - now to keep us from doing this.....






I am going to close this topic since it seems to have been dealt with.

Thanks to everyone for your input/speculation and to hbbuneez for coming along and clarifying any misunderstandings.

Now on to more bunnies to identify, ooh and aah at and all those other things we do here...


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