# What ya think of my new lionhead?



## mistyjr (May 16, 2010)

I got him from the Southwest Wisconsin Rabbit Club Show on May 8, 2010.

Name: Alex the Lion
Black Tort Buck
8 weeks old
Paid $16.00
I wanted to know what you'll think of him. :expressionless:?


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## Tweetiepy (May 16, 2010)

He's cute - he looks like my fuzzy lionhead Peaches - is he ultra soft?


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## mistyjr (May 16, 2010)

Very soft.


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## hnms06 (May 16, 2010)

Wow how did you get a rabbit for $16? Around here the cheapest you can get a lionhead for is $35 unless someone is trying hard to get rid of one? Is that an average price where your from or is a show a good place to buy decently priced rabbits? I want to buy a rabbit for $16!  Oh and he's cute!


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## mistyjr (May 16, 2010)

The lady wanted $30.00 for him but i got her to take the $16.00, She needed more holes open for the new babies that she haves.. I tryed to get a Jesery Wooly Buck and alot of breeders wanted $100- $160 each.. :O


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## wooly_queen (May 16, 2010)

holy crap! I get awesome woolies for $50 and less... so don't EVER pay that much for one unless it has 20 legs for BOB or something. XD

And I don't know much about lionheads...in the pictures his body looks kind of long.

I love his nose. lol Totally cute.


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## AnimalLoverStefi (May 16, 2010)

Oh my!! He is absolutely ADORABLE!!!


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## mistyjr (May 16, 2010)

Thanks


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## hnms06 (May 16, 2010)

Gotta love half price!


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## AnimalLoverStefi (May 16, 2010)

:biggrin2:


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## TinysMom (May 16, 2010)

*wooly_queen wrote: *


> holy crap! I get awesome woolies for $50 and less... so don't EVER pay that much for one unless it has 20 legs for BOB or something. XD
> 
> *And I don't know much about lionheads...in the pictures his body looks kind of long.*
> 
> I love his nose. lol Totally cute.


His body is very long and his ears are longer than most judges like. The breeder who sold him - if she represented him as either breeding or show stock - didn't really know her rabbits very well (in my opinion).

He has a cute face - but the lionhead standard is pretty clear about the body type with a drawing and everything.

However - he is cute.

For those who are wondering - here is a link to the working standard for lionheads.

I'm sure you'll enjoy him though.


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## mistyjr (May 16, 2010)

I got him from Windy Knob lionheads in Wi.

He haves Schneiders, Mane Frame, Weber's, Sunny Slope, Kc, BB's, lakeshore's whiskers,Kc, RRH, BB, 
Any known breeders?


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## wooly_queen (May 16, 2010)

When you need some lionheads, my friend Christine can hook you up. lol Her's are really nice! About $30 I think too. They get BOB and BOS at the shows that we go too a lot.  They are short and compact and you could work on correcting the long body problem. 

Are you going to the show in Midland on the 29th?


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## mistyjr (May 16, 2010)

I dont think i will be going to show's anytime soon.


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## TinysMom (May 16, 2010)

*TinysMom wrote: *


> *wooly_queen wrote: *
> 
> 
> > holy crap! I get awesome woolies for $50 and less... so don't EVER pay that much for one unless it has 20 legs for BOB or something. XD
> ...



I just reread this and felt that I wanted to explain myself because I came across too harsh. I didn't mean it to sound that way.

There seems to be two ways of people defining "show rabbit" when it comes to quality. One way is "this rabbit is free from defects and can be shown without being dq'd". That is probably one of the most common.

My definition (and of most of my friends) is that if I sell a show rabbit - it is one that I would place on the table - under my name - and expect it to do well. It may not win the class - but the judge's comments would be favorable on type and other things. 

For a buck - if I was selling it as show or brood stock - it better be VERY good - because you want to have the nicest buck you can get. Your buck needs to have type (particularly if you only have one) because he will affect every litter you get. 

I am willing to accept faults in my does - like longer in length or slightly longer ears (or shorter ears when it comes to flemmies) - because I have what I think is a great herd buck and so far with four different does he's consistently produced the same body type. I've been amazed.

Misty - my feeling is - and I didn't mean to offend you by the way - that this breeder either didn't know her lionheads very well - or didn't know enough to explain that he wasn't a great quality buck. He has nice mane around his body - but his type is so far off due to his length - that it will be hard to have him do well if he goes up against good competition. 

But I didn't mean to sound mean or harsh and I apologize if I sound that way. Right now - as a brand new flemish giant breeder I'm selling most of my offspring as pets because I don't want to tell someone "this rabbit will do well on the show table" until I'm comfortable with the standard and know my rabbits better.

To see the rabbits that won at Lionhead Nationals this year you can go here.

Once again - I'm sorry if I came across harsh - I didn't mean to.


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## mistyjr (May 16, 2010)

Ohh, I didnt even know that you were being harsh. I know what you ment to say though. I do have really bad breed bunnies at here. I though he would be good. But hes still young yet and he might change. But once hes a little older, i will take him to the show and see what the judge says, Just when Simba died, i was dying to get another tort. I understood what you were staying. You werent being mean or harsh at all. :hug1


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## mistyjr (May 17, 2010)

:bump:bump


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## mistyjr (May 18, 2010)

:?:?:?


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## iluvdutchrabbbits90 (May 18, 2010)

He is very pretty. ears are a little long but i love his face


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## mistyjr (May 18, 2010)

Ohh! Thank You Rachel!!


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## bunnybunbunb (May 18, 2010)

I agree with Peg. He is cute though 

I have got some pretty nice Mini Rex around here for $10. You just have to know what to look for. Some breeders just have connections, wish I did. LOL.


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## mistyjr (May 18, 2010)

But he's only 8 weeks old.. Can he grow out of it??


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## mistyjr (May 18, 2010)

:faint::headsmack


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## OakRidgeRabbits (May 18, 2010)

Aside from what everyone else has said, he appears to be a "teddy" Lionhead to me. I don't believe these are showable. But I don't know much about Lionheads, maybe his back fluff will molt out in time.


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## mistyjr (May 18, 2010)

I know the breeder was showing I believe hes brother.. But he could might change once hes older.. Hes young still.


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## TinysMom (May 18, 2010)

Definitely NOT a teddy as you can see a nice saddle on him that has shed out.

I'm not sure how you think he'll change - his type won't change - a rabbit that is long in body at this age will continue to be long in body - same with ears. 

What did his brother look like? Shorter in body?

Just curious...


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## mistyjr (May 18, 2010)

He's brother was a sable point. He was much bigger then Alex..
I was hoping he can change.. Hmm, (what to do, what to do).
Can I still show him once hes older?


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## mistyjr (May 18, 2010)

But... Also he's pedigree haves some good breeders (popular) in Michigan..


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## mistyjr (May 18, 2010)

*mistyjr wrote: *


> But... Also he's pedigree haves some good breeders (popular) in Michigan..


I know that problly doesnt change a thing or people doesnt care about that.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (May 18, 2010)

*TinysMom wrote: *


> Definitely NOT a teddy as you can see a nice saddle on him that has shed out.


This is from the Lionhead working standard:

[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]*COAT- Points 15:* The fur should be soft, dense, of medium length, and prime. It should show lots of life and glossiness. Ideally the saddle, flanks, and rump of the animal should be clean of wool. Transition wool is allowed on the lower rear sides and rump of juniors and seniors.
Transition wool is defined as a significantly shorter wool on the face, flanks, and rump. Transition wool is not to exceed 2 inches.

[/font][font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]_Faults - Fur that is long, thin, or poor in texture; excessive wool on the flanks of a junior animal._[/font]

To me, the fur doesn't show "lots of life and glossiness", it appears as a shorter or maybe intermediate (as in, in the process of molting out) wool, rather than fur. Like I said, that may molt out in time because I've seen that happen too. Or it may just be the picture making it look more fuzzy than it really is. But either way, my point was just that the coat didn't look ideal from the pictures.

Teddy may have been the incorrect term to use- I was under the impression it just meant an excessively fuzzy Lionhead.


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## countrybuns (May 18, 2010)

I don't think anyone is saying you can't show him more that he might not do well in a show because his type isn't great. Unfortunately it doesn't matter what rabbits are in his pedigree because that wont change his type. Are you still planning on breeding him?


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## mistyjr (May 19, 2010)

*OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *


> *TinysMom wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Definitely NOT a teddy as you can see a nice saddle on him that has shed out.
> ...


Thanks for the info... I had to get him due to our last Tort Buck died. My hubby caries him in hes pocket. Our last lionhead buck didnt have a saddle until says after before he died... I will just show him once hes older and see what the judges will say.. It wont hurt to ask or know..


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## mistyjr (May 19, 2010)

*countrybuns wrote: *


> I don't think anyone is saying you can't show him more that he might not do well in a show because his type isn't great. Unfortunately it doesn't matter what rabbits are in his pedigree because that wont change his type. Are you still planning on breeding him?


Just like I said. I just got him last weekend.. I was planing on breeding him. Im going to take him to the July show and see what the judges think.. It wont hurt to ask or know... If he does poorly. I can still use him for my brood buck..


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## TinysMom (May 19, 2010)

*mistyjr wrote: *


> *countrybuns wrote: *
> 
> 
> > I don't think anyone is saying you can't show him more that he might not do well in a show because his type isn't great. Unfortunately it doesn't matter what rabbits are in his pedigree because that wont change his type. Are you still planning on breeding him?
> ...


Honestly - if he does poorly you do NOT want to use him for your brood buck. You want your buck to be the absolutely nicest you can get. You'd be better off to sell him and maybe any other "not the greatest quality" you might have and put your money from those sales together to buy a nicer buck.


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## TinysMom (May 19, 2010)

Just for grins - for anyone who wants to see the "older style" lionheads - look here:

http://lionheadrabbit.net/gen gallery oldies.htm

Penelope is hilarious - most breeders would never use her in a breeding program now....

Of the ones on that page - Tuborg and Dalton are probably the two that are closest to the current lionhead working standard.


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## TinysMom (May 19, 2010)

*OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *


> *TinysMom wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Definitely NOT a teddy as you can see a nice saddle on him that has shed out.
> ...


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## missyscove (May 19, 2010)

*TinysMom wrote: *


> Just for grins - for anyone who wants to see the "older style" lionheads - look here:
> 
> http://lionheadrabbit.net/gen%20gallery%20oldies.htm
> 
> ...


Wow, that really is impressive. It reminds me of one of my animal science classes when we compared swine pictures from maybe 40 years ago to the animals we see today. Incredible what a difference breeding and management can make in such a short amount of time.


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## mistyjr (May 19, 2010)

I have noticed that he haves a 2XM mane??


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## mistyjr (May 19, 2010)

but, I will just see what the judges will say. And if he does poorly, He will just be our pet. I got him for my hubby and the kids. The kids adore him to much.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (May 19, 2010)

Since Lionheads are still in development and can be found in many shapes, sizes, colors, etc., I would suggest researching a little more into the breed before you choose show stock.

You will want to find out who some of the top breeders are in the breed as of now, and may even want to go straight to the COD holder for help and information. These breeders will most likely have the most consistent lines (since that's what they're breeding towards- consistency) and should be knowledgeable enough to help you choose a starter pair or trio which matches well against the working standard and would do well for you not only as show animals, but also as brood.

There are a LOT of people with Lionheads at this time. Many people are excited at the possibility of them getting accepted and have started projects in order to be involved. But as in any breed, not everyone is knowledgeable enough to be breeding rabbits according to the working standard, which is why even someone with "so-and-so's" lines may not be producing show quality rabbits.

I'm sure your new little guy will be a fantastic pet for your family, either way. But since it sounds like you're all loving the breed, it might be a lot of fun to look into where and how to get quality show stock that will do well for you at shows as well!


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## TinysMom (May 19, 2010)

*OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *


> Since Lionheads are still in development and can be found in many shapes, sizes, colors, etc., I would suggest researching a little more into the breed before you choose show stock.


Misty - I'm going to say some things here that I know will probably sound wrong or mean of me (not about you). But I bred lionheads for 3 years and I've "been around" and have met a large number of the breeders and I've heard them talk and I know what they can be like. So I'm saying what I'm about to say - because I care about you. Ok?

Lionhead breeders can be nice - but a large number of the ones who are "out there" showing, etc. - can also be very mean. They may smile to your face - but behind your back they are making fun of your stock and sometimes they will not hesitate to tell others, "You don't want to buy from so and so because she doesn't know what she's doing". 

I'm not saying that ALL lionhead breeders are like that - many are nice and helpful - but a lot of them can be cruel. All it takes is showing one "not so great" rabbit - and having the wrong person noticing it - and gossip can/will spread like wildfire. 

I don't know about other breeds as I haven't experienced that with other breeds - but many of the breeders I've heard talk - can be that way.

I know that lionheads aren't yet an accepted breed - but it is still important to breed to the standard. And the standard calls for a SHORT-BODIED rabbit.

Let me give you an example. Look at a picture of a holland lop - and then look at a flemish or Californian. Notice how the holland lop sits upright - with a curve to its back (not a curve...but it isn't straight either). Now look at the flemish or Californian...see how it is LONG and it lays out on the table? It doesn't really sit upright - but instead lays down? 

The lionheads I think I've seen you have (it seemed like you had others) - are long in body. They tend to lay out more like the flemish. A short-bodied rabbit will naturally sit in the posed position because it feels most comfortable to them.

Here's one way I've explained it before...but its been a while.

Hold your hand out in front of you. Look at your thumb, your middle finger and your pinkie finger.

See how your pinkie finger is shorter than your middle finger? That's great - but your pinkie finger is probably narrower than your middle finger. 

Now look at your thumb. It too is shorter than your middle finger - but it is wider than your pinkie.

You want to find the short-bodied rabbits that have bigger/wider bones (too often I see lionheads with fine very fine bone - which you can tell by looking at the size and shape of the feet).

My concern is - you will take your rabbits to a show somewhere to be judged..and your name will get spread around as someone who doesn't know what they're doing. I don't want to see you get hurt.

My best suggestion is to visit lionhead breeders' websites - study their rabbits and notice how their bodies are shaped. One of my favorite breeders with good prices is legendaryminis.com - they show on their pages what awards their rabbits have won. Look at the ones that have won awards and study their body type.

Then visit other lionhead breeders' pages and study their body types. 

I did this between my first and second shows because someone took me under their wing and taught me this by having me go to webpages and talking to me about what I was seeing. From then on - every rabbit but one - always got the comment "good type", "very good type" or "excellent type". 

Type is very important because you can bring the mane into your breeding if you have good typed rabbits but you HAVE to get that type (short wide body) down first.

Once again - I don't mean to hurt you. But I would rather share this with you (and let others read it and learn) than to see you get hurt.

As much as I love lionheads - I don't know that I will ever get into them again. If I do - I will probably start with a trio from Legendary Minis or Castle Gate Lionheads. I'm sharing these two not to sell for them - but to suggest you study their stock.


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## wooly_queen (May 19, 2010)

I agree with Peg and Julie  So try to do some more research about them before you get anymore. You can try to start over. Sometimes you just have to, as much as it sucks. lol So sell what won't work to improve your herd (keep a few sweet pets, I'm guilty of it too. lol Just don't keep to many!!!) Then seriously, if you need help, we have to get to another show together! Me and Christine will help you find the good stuff! Or she might even have something for sale to get you on the right track.

Why do you have to be so far away??? lol I think I need to move.  Gaylord is to far from everything... gaaahhh. In like two years, if I go to Baker College, I might just stay in Cadillac. XD It will cut a good hour and a half off of the usual time it takes to get to shows. lol


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## mistyjr (May 19, 2010)

*TinysMom wrote: *


> *OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Since Lionheads are still in development and can be found in many shapes, sizes, colors, etc., I would suggest researching a little more into the breed before you choose show stock.
> ...


I thank you for this.. I like you too! :biggrin:

This does help me and yes. I have to agree with you about other breeders.. I wanted to get into the LionHeads and Jesery Woolies. But my aunt wouldnt let me do that.. She believes that keeping the non showable bunnies are the best and can get better showable babies out of them. I have tired and tired to tell her that I am sick of all these non showable and non breedable bunnies that I have.. But No shes keep sticking me with more non showable bunnies example the dutch.. I really wanted just the Lionheads but she kept telling me that they arent ARBA and never will be so why start them out. But No She had to breed my Wooly doe with my lionhead buck that is worthless. He haves wool on hes ears and doesnt have a mane. So with this newest litter that I have. It looks like the babies will have a mane. But she sure wants me too breed my doe back with the daddy. I havent done it yet. But I dont think I want too. She said to do it so I can get another haralquin baby. But I love the color. 
But I also been talking to Weber's Rabbitry on email about Lionheads.. because this is my first time breeding and showing the lionheads. And I love the breed. She haves been giving me the info and I love it... And I thank you again. I dont mind you guys giving me this info.. 

Thank you again!


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## mistyjr (May 19, 2010)

*wooly_queen wrote: *


> I agree with Peg and Julie  So try to do some more research about them before you get anymore. You can try to start over. Sometimes you just have to, as much as it sucks. lol So sell what won't work to improve your herd (keep a few sweet pets, I'm guilty of it too. lol Just don't keep to many!!!) Then seriously, if you need help, we have to get to another show together! Me and Christine will help you find the good stuff! Or she might even have something for sale to get you on the right track.
> 
> Why do you have to be so far away??? lol I think I need to move.  Gaylord is to far from everything... gaaahhh. In like two years, if I go to Baker College, I might just stay in Cadillac. XD It will cut a good hour and a half off of the usual time it takes to get to shows. lol


I was talking to my aunt about going to a show with ya again. But she seems No. Because she knows that I like the lionheads and I want to get another Wooly Buck but she doesnt want me to get in those breeds just the breeds that she haves. And we do not want that.. I like the breeds that I have kinda. Just like my hubby says. I should choose the breeds that I want and not the breeds that she wants me to get into... GRRR:X

But yes, If we meet again. I would like to get better breeds. I love getting info and help from other people...


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## mistyjr (May 19, 2010)

I was talking last night before I talked to my aunt. I was thinking about after these new babies are old enough to leave me , I'm thinking selling the mommy and diffently the daddy. because of hes coat. But No, She dont want me to do that.. The momma dont have a pedigree. But when I was talking to the Weber's Rabbitry. She said that my doe looks just like her Doe that she haves right now.

"This is what she emailed me"
The black doe is very simular to Black Knight. Black Knight is the Grand Sire to the BOB 2010 Lionhead Nationals blue tort buck. He was shown by a junior breeder cause I couldn't attend. She isn't a bad looking doe from the pic on your site. Is she a senior doe? They tend to loose mane after 6-8 months of age. I have some right now that have good manes after 1 year old and litters. It has taken 4 years to work on and it will always be a challenge. I think thats why I am so into them. The challenge.


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## mistyjr (May 19, 2010)

So, I just dont know what to do with these bunnies! I love them all to death. They are all spoiled rotten. They have toys, chew toys,ect.. But I do love them all. Even the newer babies. I have tried to find a better close by to help me. But I do have a rabbit show in my town in July 10th. That is about 4-5 blocks from me!


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## countrybuns (May 19, 2010)

I think you need to decide what you want and tell your aunt to stay out of it. Then I would sell whatever isn't going to help your heard out as pets. Next like Peg said go read the standard and start looking at prize winners. Maybe you can look at other sites and critique their rabbits to get practice for looking for your own. Next choose what colour you want to work with because breeding non-showables is of no use and then with the help of a good breeder choose your starter heard. I wish you the best as I am also new to the lionhead world and have been taken under the wing of some great breeders in my area.


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## mistyjr (May 19, 2010)

Thanks Sarah.. I sure will take your idvice. I am talking to one breeder online at the moment she lives 5-6 hrs up north of me.. But Thanks again


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## countrybuns (May 19, 2010)

That is great! I couldn't have gotten my starter stock without the help of a breeder 2 hours away and she even helped transport one from the states across the border for me. Good luck Misty!


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## wooly_queen (May 19, 2010)

I can help in the wooly, mini rex, and lionhead departments. I know many good wooly breeders. Just so happends that one breeds mini rex too and does extremely well with both breeds. lol I also know of other mini rex breeders because I bred them for 2 years. I know lionhead people becuase a lady has her son in my 4-H group (Christine) and her family breeds them with great success. Plus I have one from her and from talking and going to shows with her, the lionhead bug jumped on me. lol The lady from Basket of Blessings Rabbitry (lionhead breeder) is coming to Gaylord for our 4-H rabbit achievement day on the 22nd. lol So I'll even get to talk to her too.  I'll give you any learned information! lol

Do you have a copy of the working standard for them? That will come in handy...Christine has one...she printed it off somewhere, so if you don't already have it, then I'm sure you can find it.

Roar. Tell your aunt to leave you alone. lol Woolies rock! WOOT!


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## TinysMom (May 19, 2010)

My not-so-humble and very much personal opinion is....unless your aunt is paying for the feed and cleaning the cages - the decisions on what you breed should be yours. 

Then again -opinions are like feet - we all have them - and some (oftentimes mine) - stink.


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## mistyjr (May 19, 2010)

*wooly_queen wrote: *


> I can help in the wooly, mini rex, and lionhead departments. I know many good wooly breeders. Just so happends that one breeds mini rex too and does extremely well with both breeds. lol I also know of other mini rex breeders because I bred them for 2 years. I know lionhead people becuase a lady has her son in my 4-H group (Christine) and her family breeds them with great success. Plus I have one from her and from talking and going to shows with her, the lionhead bug jumped on me. lol The lady from Basket of Blessings Rabbitry (lionhead breeder) is coming to Gaylord for our 4-H rabbit achievement day on the 22nd. lol So I'll even get to talk to her too.  I'll give you any learned information! lol
> 
> Do you have a copy of the working standard for them? That will come in handy...Christine has one...she printed it off somewhere, so if you don't already have it, then I'm sure you can find it.
> 
> Roar. Tell your aunt to leave you alone. lol Woolies rock! WOOT!


Thanks, I know you'v been there and we have talked for a while now. And Thanks for that.. You are a great person and great to meet too! I liked looking at your beaaaautiful buns.. And Thanks for helping me with Finch And Lancey


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## mistyjr (May 19, 2010)

*TinysMom wrote: *


> My not-so-humble and very much personal opinion is....unless your aunt is paying for the feed and cleaning the cages - the decisions on what you breed should be yours.
> 
> Then again -opinions are like feet - we all have them - and some (oftentimes mine) - stink.


Yeah, I have to agree. I keep telling her that its my choose. But that seems not too work. But oh well!


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## mistyjr (May 19, 2010)

*countrybuns wrote: *


> That is great! I couldn't have gotten my starter stock without the help of a breeder 2 hours away and she even helped transport one from the states across the border for me. Good luck Misty!


Thanks, I wish you good luck with ya too!

I am glad that there are breeders like all of you!


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## countrybuns (May 19, 2010)

*TinysMom wrote: *


> My not-so-humble and very much personal opinion is....unless your aunt is paying for the feed and cleaning the cages - the decisions on what you breed should be yours.
> 
> Then again -opinions are like feet - we all have them - and some (oftentimes mine) - stink.


That is my new favorite quote! :wink


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## lionheadbunny21 (May 19, 2010)

What a cute lionhead bunny. I have a brown (almost) fullgrown and a black baby lionhead. They are adorable bunnies.  THank you for sharing you new bunny with us.


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## mistyjr (May 19, 2010)

*lionheadbunny21 wrote: *


> What a cute lionhead bunny. I have a brown (almost) fullgrown and a black baby lionhead. They are adorable bunnies.  THank you for sharing you new bunny with us.


 You are welcome... I have 3 LionHeads and 3 babies left, 1 baby died last week. 
And Rex, Mini Rex, Jersey Wooly, and dutch.


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## mistyjr (May 19, 2010)

*countrybuns wrote: *


> *TinysMom wrote: *
> 
> 
> > My not-so-humble and very much personal opinion is....unless your aunt is paying for the feed and cleaning the cages - the decisions on what you breed should be yours.
> ...


That was pretty funny! :nasty::laugh:


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## JadeIcing (May 20, 2010)

My non breeder perspective..... Do what makes you happy. Do what you can stand proudly and say "I did that, I put thought into this and made it happen."


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## SilverBirchRabbitry (May 20, 2010)

He's cute 
If you want a nice breed to get into, get Mini Lops. :O They are amazing all the way around =P


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## mistyjr (May 22, 2010)

*SilverBirchRabbitry wrote: *


> He's cute
> If you want a nice breed to get into, get Mini Lops. :O They are amazing all the way around =P


Thanks, But i already have too many bunnies as it is.... I always loved the lionhead breed. So i sticking too it.... lol


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