# Otter or Marten/Fox



## Sabine (Aug 18, 2010)

I still can't tell the difference in the pattern:dunno
The more I look at pictures the more I get confused. The only difference I sometimes find is that the Otter appears to have a more orangey belly whereas marten/fox appears more cream? Is that it? Can anyone enlighten me?


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## lelanatty (Aug 18, 2010)

The easiest way to tell is to look at the back of the neck. 

An otter will have a very orange marking there.












A Marten/Fox will have a completely white marking there.











There are a lot of people who don't know the difference between the two and will mis-label them. Thereis also a huge amount of very poorly marked otters that do not display the very orange color that they should have and may be called foxes because of it. Like this one







I hope this helps you. Martens/Foxes have WHITE markings and only otters have ORANGE markings.


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## Jaded (Aug 18, 2010)

*lelanatty wrote: *


> The easiest way to tell is to look at the back of the neck.
> 
> An otter will have a very orange marking there.
> 
> ...



:yeahthat:


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## Shaded Night Rabbitry (Aug 18, 2010)

>



=O

Chunky face!


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## lelanatty (Aug 18, 2010)

*Shaded Night Rabbitry wrote: *


> > Martin
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yes I love his face! Especially is cheeks! you should see a front view of him. :biggrin:


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## pamnock (Aug 18, 2010)

Just to add to the confusion - here in the US, we refer to tort and sable otters as "fox".


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## lelanatty (Aug 18, 2010)

*pamnock wrote: *


> Just to add to the confusion - here in the US, we refer to tort and sable otters as "fox".


HUH? :? Pictures please?


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## Shaded Night Rabbitry (Aug 18, 2010)

*lelanatty wrote: *


> *pamnock wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Just to add to the confusion - here in the US, we refer to tort and sable otters as "fox".
> ...


This is the best picture I have. Plus it's out of a weird (and from orange lines) cross, so I'm sure it's a lot closer to orange than most probably are.

Tort Marten (not sure if "marten" classifies them as fox or not.)





See the tort shading? And the martenized-ness? (Which isn't super apparent, but eye circles and I'd assume belly color.)


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## lelanatty (Aug 18, 2010)

OHH I see now! Thanks!

And "Fox" is what people in UK call "Marten" so they are the same thing.


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## Whiskerz (Aug 18, 2010)

*lelanatty wrote: *


>


This is Liam's daddy.

This had nothing to do with what this thread is about, btu Im just saying cause he is SO darn cute! :biggrin:


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## Sabine (Aug 18, 2010)

Thanks for all the replies. So it is just the colour of the markings that distinguishes them rather than the pattern.
My thread was actually sparked off by looking at the pictures in this thread
http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=60441&forum_id=8
and I realized I couldn't tell the otter from the fox. But I guess often the colour doesn't show properly in photographs


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## Sabine (Aug 18, 2010)

P.S. and is it just the dark chin gene that causes the distinction?


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## lelanatty (Aug 18, 2010)

*Sabine wrote: *


> P.S. and is it just the dark chin gene that causes the distinction?



Yes. the dark chinchilla gene is the only thing that is different beween martens and otters.

But, you can get silver martens out of Chins whenyou have the tan pattern gene there somewhere as well as the dark chinchilla gene.


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## lelanatty (Aug 18, 2010)

*Sabine wrote: *


> Thanks for all the replies. So it is just the colour of the markings that distinguishes them rather than the pattern.
> My thread was actually sparked off by looking at the pictures in this thread
> http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=60441&forum_id=8
> and I realized I couldn't tell the otter from the fox. But I guess often the colour doesn't show properly in photographs


I actually was looking at that as well. You can tell that the first rabbit is an otter, his rufus factor is a bit light but that can be caused by the dilute gene as well. The second one is supposed to be a fox but it might actually be a poorly marked otter.


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## Sabine (Aug 19, 2010)

*lelanatty wrote: *


> But, you can get silver martens out of Chins whenyou have the tan pattern gene there somewhere as well as the dark chinchilla gene.


Oh, but how come it's called a silver marten then if it has the dark chin gene? Now I'm confused again:?
By the way the rufus factor regulates red colour doesn't it? Is there a separate gene for it and how does it interact?


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## lelanatty (Aug 19, 2010)

*Sabine wrote: *


> Oh, but how come it's called a silver marten then if it has the dark chin gene? Now I'm confused again:?
> By the way the rufus factor regulates red colour doesn't it? Is there a separate gene for it and how does it interact?



I know, it makes me kinda mad too, but there is a point to it. 

Basically, silver marten is to chinchilla what otter is to chestnut agouti. They are separated only by the tan pattern gene. I am making you a diagram to explain it. I will post it as soon as I am done.


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## Sabine (Aug 19, 2010)

Thanks, that would be great, Lela.
It seems whenever I manage to grasp a concept something else crops up that appears to contradict it


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## lelanatty (Aug 19, 2010)

Alright here we go.







So basically what this is expalining is that in order to have a silver marten, you have to have the tan pattern gene (at)AND the dark chinchilla gene (cchd).

A chestnut agouti with the tan pattern gene is an otter. A chestnut agouti with the dark chinchilla gene is a chinchilla.

So when you combine them together, the tan pattern gene and the dark chinchilla gene, you get a silver marten. Genetic code a[suP]t[/suP]-B-C[suP]chd[/suP]-D-E- respectively. 

I hope this makes sense. 

And about the rufus factor, I have no idea what genes control it, but I know that it is more apparent in some rabbits and less in others.


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## Sabine (Aug 19, 2010)

I get it in general but the bit I'm stuck on in the explanation is the "chestnut agouti with a tan pattern gene". I always thought it's either Agouti (A) or tan (at):?
I know we had a similar discussion before in another context but I got lost somewhere along the way.:baghead


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## lelanatty (Aug 19, 2010)

*Sabine wrote: *


> I get it in general but the bit I'm stuck on in the explanation is the "chestnut agouti with a tan pattern gene". I always thought it's either Agouti (A) or tan (at):?
> I know we had a similar discussion before in another context but I got lost somewhere along the way.:baghead


Yeah you are right. Is is always either at or A. but it is still ana gene after all. That is how otter is related to agouti.


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## Sabine (Aug 19, 2010)

I think it must be the letter symbols that throw me. 'at' looks so much more like 'a' than 'A'. If it was a variation of agouti it would almost make sense if it was capitalized.


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## lelanatty (Aug 19, 2010)

I think (at) isn't capitalized because otters don't have the agouti pattern of ticking in their fur, and they look more like solid rabbits which is (a), but they do sill have the agouti trim - eye circles, around the nose, jowls, inside ears, back of the neck,and the underbelly - like the agoutis do. That is why they are still part of the agouti genetics. They are in-between and that is why I like to call them "solid agoutis"


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