# Nasal Discharge and Motion Sickness



## Amy27 (Jul 3, 2009)

Several months ago the Little Bunny was diagnosed with Bordetella and treated with SMZ-TMP for 2 weeks. Well I noticed a few days ago the hair around her nose was looking yellow. It was dry and looked stained but decided I would take her into the vet today when I took Chase. 

The vet gave me Azitromycin 250mg/ml to give her for two weeks. She is assuming it is the Bordetella and the previous antibiotic wasn't strong enough. A culture was done previously so they know what antibiotic it is sensitive to. 

Another concern is that the vet saw small lingual spurs on her bottom teeth. I asked the vet for x-rays as I have read here that sometimes the problem is in the root of the tooth and can't be seen. The vet stated that to get root x-rays the rabbit has to be sedated with gas as they get 5 views and are specific to the type of views to see the root properly. Because of the nasal discharge she does not want to have her breathe in gas. So we are going to wait and she goes back in 2 weeks. Is that true that to get x-rays of the root of a tooth that a rabbit has to be sedated? Both of my rabbits have had x-rays before with out sedation, by this vet too. I just find that odd that x-rays of the teeth would be so different. 

Another issue is the car ride to the vet. The Little Bunny literally looks like death is over her when she is riding in the car. I thought it was fear but as soon as we get to the vets office she is fine, it is just during the car ride. I would think if it was fear, it would be the same at the vets office. Her eyes water and she holds her head in a really wierd way facing up, she also has a ton of nasal discharge in the car. Before putting her in her carrier today I checked her nose and the stain was almost gone. I thought to myself the vet is going to think I am crazy for bringing her in. By the time we got to the vets office her nose was covered in green crap, so bad it was on her chest. No the stain before was just yellow not this green. The otoscopic exam and her breathing was normal, to the vet it didn't sound like she was having any problems breathing. 

So when I tell the vet I checked her nose before leaving and tell her how she looked in the car the vet thinks she was car sick. So she gave her some Metoclopramide at the office and cleaned up her nose. She also gave me some Sulcrafate to give her at home for a few days to coat the esophagus. The vet's belief is that rabbit's can't vomit. But she stated that the acid from a rabbits stomach can come up into their nose. She believes that is why her nose got so bad in the car ride to the vets. That there was so much that it was on her chest area. She also gave me Metoclopramine to give her next time I bring her in. 

The Little Bunny did seem a little better on the ride home and when we got home there was no new discharge. I was lucky the vet cleaned her up good so I can tell. This is what the vet said about the acid "Green tinge to discharge, motion sickness-concern over gastroesophageal reflux contributing to nasal discharge during car die" 

I am hoping someone has some experience with some of this or the meds I have been given. I trust my vet but have been given wrong info and drugs so many times that I feel better knowing that someone else has used them. I don't know if I am going to give the Sulcrafate. Little Bunny seems fine and is eating since being home. If I give it to her she will be getting meds 3 times a day as I can't give it at the same time as the antibiotic. I give one does of antibiotic a day and thought of giving the Sulcrafate in the morning and skipping the second dose and giving the antibiotic at night. 

I appreciate at any advice or experience anyone has with any of these problems or meds. 

Thanks Amy


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## Maureen Las (Jul 3, 2009)

Azithrommycin (zithromax is a great drug for bordatella) if you weigh her and look at the medirabbit chart you can determine whether she has been dosed properly . According to medirabbit azithromycin should be given 30-50 mg /kg once per day . 1 kg=2.2lb 

I don't know why he gave you the metoclopromide which is reglan . 

I will quote from kathy Smith / Lucille Moore regarding Sulfacrate as I have never used it myself

"Sulfacrate (Carafate) might also be recommended by some vets (gastric ulcers). It coats the stomach and heals ulcers without disrupting acid metabolism. Sulfacrate requires stomach acid to make a protective gel that covers injured tissues and should be given 30 min before any antacid is given . Sulfacrate should be given regularly to be effective ;;don't miss doss and full protection may take several weeks to achieve"

Sulfalcrate 25 mg /kg q 8- 12 hr 
do not give in conjunction with cimetidine, tetracycline, phenytoin, digoxin 

caution : may interfere with other drugs taken orally . "

I would advise you to talk with your vet as to why he ordered both sulfacrate and metoclopromide (esp metoclopromide) . Since I am not a vet there mya be a reason that I am not aware of . 
In terms of sulfacrate I personally do not see any reason not to give it . ..but best to discuss your concerns with the vet. 

Amy 

I know that sometimes azithromycin will decrease appetite and so you need to be aware of this and possibly try to supplement her food some by syringing. This is a good drug and if you can maintain her on it as prescribed it may eradicate the infection.


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## Amy27 (Jul 4, 2009)

Angieluv, 
Thanks for the dosing on the Zithromx. Her dosing seems to be correct. 

Let me see if I can explain the Metoclopramide better. I don't have to give that to the Little Bunny until I take her to the vet again. I am suppose to give her a dose 30 mintues before leaving for the vet. The vet thinks she has motion sickness and this will help her on the car ride to the vet. 

The Sulcrafate I am suppose to start tomorrow for 4-5 days to help if she had and esophagus irritation from what the vet thinks was motion sickness today with some acid from her stomach coming up and possibly irritating her esophagus. I should probably just give it to her. The vet won't be in until Monday for me to ask. 

Thanks for giving me a heads up that Zithromax can cause stomach issues. I don't have anything on hand so I am glad you said that. I will have to get something tomorrow if the stores are open. I have looked for BeneBac and haven't been able to find it.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 4, 2009)

It doesn't cause stomach issues (although a probiotic is a good idea); it just causes the bunny to not be as hungry (sometimes)
remember that you can use the stuff from farm stores called Probios . I actually bought some today for my own rabbits


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## Flashy (Jul 4, 2009)

Metaclopromide is an anti sickness drug in people, I wonder if somehow that was why she prescribed it?

The only time I've had a rabbit get disorientated in the car was Tilly, who has head tilt. She doesn't struggle like Little Bunny did but she is very clearly disorientated. Might just be worth watching to see if anything develops that could be related to disorientation in a rabbit, although the zithromax should help fight against anything potentially there.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 4, 2009)

AWWW now I understand the metoclopromide. 

Metoclopromide is an antimemetic and is for use in nausea and vomiting but it is not often prescribed for rabbits for this reason 

Metoclopromide (reglan) and cisapride (propulsive) are also the 2 gut stimulants that Randy feels should not be used for gut motility issues. (ex stasis)
I would ask your vet about it as it is being prescribed for a disorder other than stasis and may help her.

Ihave never know of it being used in a bun for anything other than stasis and therefore cannot comment much on it's use for her. 

How is little Bunny?


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## Amy27 (Jul 4, 2009)

Sorry angieluv, I don't think I described it correctly when I first posted. 

I didn't realize the metoclopromide was a gut stimulant. I would think that would make her stomach feel worse not better. 

Little Bunny is acting fine and running around but she isn't eating. I got her to take a couple bites of a carrot and that is it.


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## Amy27 (Jul 4, 2009)

I just read BethM's thread as I remembered she went through this recently with Nick. I got some ideas of some things to syringe from her thread. 

I notice that a lot of people syringe the pellets they are feeding. The Little Bunny hasn't had pellets in years but I thought of picking some up from the store. Do you think it would bother her to eat them as long as I gave them in moderation since she isn't use to having them? I am trying to think of things I can get her to eat on her own with. 

I tried to give her a treat and she took it and stood there and looked at me with it hanging in her mouth. She finally took a few bites and then went and laid down. Does the loss of appetite usually last the whole time they are on the antibiotic or just the first few days?


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## Maureen Las (Jul 4, 2009)

sometimes for only a few days ; sometimes longer.

Tellme what her normal diet consists of


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## Amy27 (Jul 4, 2009)

Normally she gets greens-green leaf lettuce, cilantro, red leaf lettuce, endive,and dandilions when I can find them. She use to get parsley but it is high in calcuim so I stopped giving that. I did pick up some at the store today to see if she would eat that. She also gets unlimited Timothy hay. She loves hay but is very very picky. 

When I got home from the store she ate a treat and a few pieces of hay. But when she eats it is almost like she forgets she is eating or falls asleep. She will take the hay, eat one bite and then let it fall out of her mouth and she won't pick it up. I am having to hand feed her. I also got her to eat a few bites of carrot. I was dipping the carrot in water between her bites to try and get fluids in her. 

I left for the store 4 hours ago and cleaned her cage before I left. She hasn't gone to the bathroom at all. 

I also got some grass and a small bag of pellets. I went to 7 different pet stores and none of them had Benebac. I did find Nutrical. I do have a probiotic by Peter's Pets. I also got Pedialyte and canned pumpkin. 

Thank you for your help. She is really making me nervous because I am not sure at what point to get concerned or what to give her. I have a good blender so I can blend up greens and give her in a syringe with water.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 4, 2009)

I would be sort sort of concerned about starting her out on a lot of pellets when sheis not used to it but a little to start would be OK. it would be Ok to whip up and syringe greens but if you can fed by hand probably better. 
i would try to give her greens and and maybe syringe feed her some pedialyte today ; don't go heavy on trying to force feed her today but be sure to get fluids in her 
I have heard that when bacteria is dying off that the bun will lose his appetite for maybe 3 days on an antibiotic and then when he is feeling better will start eating better.

Now with zithromax it could be either case. I have heard of people who needed to take the bun off it because of appetite reduction so thatshould not be excluded but it is too early to tell 

I had Babette on zithromax and her appetite was reduced but her dosage was too low anyway so I kept her on it 

Babette did 100% better on bicillin injections for her respiratory;; totally wiped it out

I don't know how your vet feels about you giving the bicillin in her case as Babette did not have a C&S done as they would have had to put her under anesthesaa and her breathing was difficult. 

In any case 

try to hang in their with this for at least 2-3 days to give it a try. 

Are her respiratory symtoms any better? 

Ireally feel bad for you Amy..so much going on at once. I have been there and I totally undertand the physical and emotional drain this is on a person. 
"Hugs
Maureen


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## Maureen Las (Jul 4, 2009)

peter's probiotic is probably fine....

Nutrical is also fine but just a little


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## Amy27 (Jul 4, 2009)

The only respiratory symptom she had was yellow nasal discharge. No coughing or sneezing. I haven't seen any discharge today and the fur around her nose isn't yellow. 

I syringed her 3ml of 50% pedialyte and 50% water. Am I suppose to dilute it? Should I strive for a certain amount of fluids to get into her a day? 

This might sound weird, but I can tell by looking at the Little Bunny that she isn't feeling well. Just the way her eyes look. Before starting the antibiotic she was acting, eating and drinking fine. I feel bad, I know she has to have it though. 

I am going to hang with it atleast until Monday when her vet comes in. By then she will have had 3 doses. I just feel like I am making her sicker by giving her this. 

I decided not to give the Sulcrafate. The vet told me it will stop or slow down absorption so not to give it when giving the antibiotic or the antibiotic won't be absorb into her system. With her not eating or drinking I don't want to stop what she is getting from being absorbed. I will call the vet on Monday and tell her this. If she still wants me to do it with a good reason I will start the med then. 

Would you give the probiotic and/or nutrical now or wait a few days? 

Thank you so much angieluv. If it wasn't for your help getting me through this, I would have called the ER vet by now and I am sure they would have made me bring her in and they are not as rabbit savvy as her regular vet.


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## Amy27 (Jul 4, 2009)

The Little Bunny finally pooped but it is all mushy and stuck together.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 4, 2009)

I would give her the probiotic.

and I would also talk to him(vet) about her tomorrow

I know that Beau gets drugged up looking on bicillin although it doesn't affect his GI system

babette lost some weight on zithromax but like I said she didn't have a full dose ;

How much does little bunnyshe weigh and how many mg are you giving ?

you need to give the probiotic in between the doses of antibiotic 

if you are giving the zithromax at ( ex 9am then wait about 6 hrs to give the probiotic) 

i would hold off on the nutrical because it could be too rich for her right now


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## Maureen Las (Jul 4, 2009)

As I recall Babette had some mushy poops also probably from the zithromax(azithromycin)


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## JadeIcing (Jul 4, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> The only time I've had a rabbit get disorientated in the car was Tilly, who has head tilt. She doesn't struggle like Little Bunny did but she is very clearly disorientated. Might just be worth watching to see if anything develops that could be related to disorientation in a rabbit, although the zithromax should help fight against anything potentially there.


I was thinking the exact same thing. Both Ringo and Gabriel do horribly during car rides.


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## Amy27 (Jul 5, 2009)

I am glad to know your buns had some of the same reaction to antibiotics. 

I can't get ahold of my vet until Monday. I tried calling the ER line to see if I could talk to her but the only advice they offered is to stop the meds which I really don't want to do. If the vet wants me to stick with it, I want to. They said they would leave a message and have the vet call me first thing Monday. 

Little Bunny weighs 4.6 lbs and she is getting .25ml once a day for two weeks. The Zithromycin is 250mg/ml. 

I will give the probiotic tomorrow since Little Bunny just got her antibiotic an hour ago. 

Thanks again Angieluv.


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## Amy27 (Jul 5, 2009)

*JadeIcing wrote: *


> *Flashy wrote: *
> 
> 
> > The only time I've had a rabbit get disorientated in the car was Tilly, who has head tilt. She doesn't struggle like Little Bunny did but she is very clearly disorientated. Might just be worth watching to see if anything develops that could be related to disorientation in a rabbit, although the zithromax should help fight against anything potentially there.
> ...



Ali, Do you mind telling me what yours do or how they act? I guess I am comparing Little Bunny to Chase because they are the only two I have/had. Maybe Chase just does good during car rides and Little Bunny is normal. 

I also think the Bordetella may be contributing to the rough car rides,as the last two car rides have been way worse. I mentioned that to the vet. But I think she was concerned because so much stuff came out of her nose during the car ride. Which is why the vet said she thought what was coming out of her nose was acid from her stomach and then gave her the Reglan.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 5, 2009)

The dosage of the azithromycin is not even on the higher end but like I said some buns really lose their appetites. 
you could bring up Bicillin or Convenia (which Tracy can fill you in on from personal experience) if the azithromycin just doesn't work out.....


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## Amy27 (Jul 5, 2009)

The Little Bunny seemed better this morning. She even ate a little bit on her own. But this evening she looks drugged again. I can deal with the drugged look as long as she is eating. So I think I am going to try and stick with the Zithromax and I will supplement food and fluids if I feel she isn't getting enough on her own.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 6, 2009)

I would agree with that Amy ifyou are able to do it...:expressionless


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## Amy27 (Jul 6, 2009)

I ended up taking Little Bunny back to the vet today. I woke this morning to diarrhea everywhere. There were some mushy poops but there was also some that was just like water. So the vet had me bring her in. They stopped the antibiotic. Gave her some sub q's and some pain meds. I was sent home with critical care, metronidazole, metacam and they told me to give her some gas meds. 

If she doesn't eat tonight I am suppose to take her back in tomorrow. I am not sure how I am suppose to get her to eat tonight, they gave her so much pain meds she is out of it.


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## Flashy (Jul 6, 2009)

What a horrible time you are going through. I have no advice but I am thinking of you.


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## Amy27 (Jul 6, 2009)

Thanks Flashy. I appreciate the thoughts. 

Is critical care the stuff you have to let sit for a long time as it continues to absorb?


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## Maureen Las (Jul 6, 2009)

Critical care is the powder herbivore food that needs to absorb a lot of water before you feed it; it should be made much more liquidy than the package instructs. 
If he is out of it and cannot swallow do not try to feed him as he will aspirate the liquid. 

if he is semi out of it and not eating focus on getting liquids like pedialyte into him and don't sweat food until tomorrow. if he doesn 't swallow at all then don't try oral feeding but call the vet and let them know this 
I am concerned that they are not replacing the antibiotic but they most likely want to straighten out his GI tract first. 
Amy 
Ask if you can do sub q's;.......... seems like it would be easier to do this rather than try to feed a groggy bunny 

I'm sorry the zithromax had this effect; strange that Randy has never had issues like this 
I did see a poteniall for this with Babette but like I said she was underdosed. 

please let me know how Little bunny is doing
"Hugs"

Maureen


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## Amy27 (Jul 6, 2009)

Thanks for responding angieluv. 

I am concerned about giving the critical care tonight. I can get the Little Bunny up moving around, but on her own she just lays there. I guess I will see how she swallows when I give her the meds. I just wish they would have sent the pain drugs home with me so I could try to get her to eat before giving them to her. 

They said I can do the sub q's at home but if I take her in tomorrow they also want to do an enema. Only raed on if you don't get grossed out easily because this is gross. But they want me to bring in 10 of Chase's poops. They then are going to give that to the Little Bunny in a syringe up her rectum. The vets reasoning was this. She believes that if you crush poop or cecals that they are destroyed in the stomach due to the acid. She stated if I could get Little Bunny to eat the cecals while they still had the mucous on them, the mucous would prevent the acid from destroying what it is she needs from them. So her theory is if you give them rectally, the acid won't be there to destroy them. 

In regard to the antibiotic for the Bordetella, she is going to prescribe something else once her GI tract is straightened out. She didn't mention what she is going to give. I am not even sure if she knows. 

I also spoke with the vet regarding the Reglan. She stated that new studies show that given in small doses for a short period of time it doesn't act as a gut stimulate. I told her I was concerned about the Little Bunny being in more pain from that. She prescribed that for nausea. 

I think the vet maybe prescribing a little too much but I don't really know. I just feel like if the Little Bunny only got sub q's today I could at least be getting something in her as I did yesterday and the day before. Now I can't get anything into her. I feel like this is a lot of stuff to give her when she was eating some and her activity level was still good. I am afraid all these meds could make things worse. But she has a lot of experience and excellent credentials, I am going to have to trust her. 

The vet is having heart surgery tomorrow and I wonder if that is why she prescribed so much at first because she knows she won't be available. Her vet tech will be available and the one I would see tomorrow. The vet did say she could be reached by phone but tomorrow she will be in surgery all day.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 6, 2009)

That was not gross ; I never heard of doing that but i won't say it is wrong as i never heard of it. it does make some sense. i would have thought that it would have been enough just to take her off the zithromax and maybe give her some benebac; it does seem like this is sort of extreme treatments. but if your vet is well qualified then she most likely knows what she is doing. 
I would ask the vet to allow you to control the pain meds because you are right that you cannot feed her if she is all doped up. 
I hope that it starts to wear off soon

How is she now?


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## Amy27 (Jul 6, 2009)

She is freaking me out. She is laying on a magazine completely still. Even when I got in and sit next to her, it is like she doesn't see me. Her eyes or head doesn't move. I actually at one point thought she had passed away because I was calling her name and touching her head and she wouldn't even move her eyes. She never lays on a magazine. I thought of giving her some gas meds but I feel like I am putting all this stuff in her system. This is her active time of day and when I was able to get her to eat. I am going to sleep next to her tonight and will be praying she makes it through. She just is acting to weird.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 7, 2009)

Do you know what the vet gave her today ?
I agree that it doesn't sound good


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## Maureen Las (Jul 7, 2009)

When we are in the car on the way home from Beau's big dentals he is always drowsy and sleepy but he is always sleeping in the loaf position in the carrier and not floppy ; they must have really given her a lot of meds???


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## Amy27 (Jul 7, 2009)

.02 of Metacam 5 mg/ml, .02 ml Buphrenex .03 mg/ml, reglan .02 and 100 ml lactated ringer. Plus I gave her the Metronidazole .03 that they sent me home with. 

I am just crossing my fingers she is really drugged.


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## Amy27 (Jul 7, 2009)

She is grinding her teeth now.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 7, 2009)

are you sure that it isn't the grinding they do when they are sleepiy ?


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## Amy27 (Jul 7, 2009)

It could be the grinding when they are sleeping. I don't really know how to tell the difference. I just climbed over her nic cage and hit my foot on it and she sure moved pretty fast. So I hope that is a good sign.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 7, 2009)

that's a good sign 

sometimes Beau will sort of be sleeping andhis little mouth will be moving but it isn't really grinding ; I don't know what it is..... but it doesn't worry me


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## Amy27 (Jul 7, 2009)

That is good. That makes me feel a lot better. Thanks angieluv, you are a great person and I appreciate you being here for me and my buns.



ETA: Because I can't spell


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## tonyshuman (Jul 7, 2009)

The buprenex is an opiod narcotic and will make her seem "out of it". I'm not sure on the entire treatment course here, as I don't have time to read this all in depth, but I wonder if she is feeling ill motion sickeness-wise due to the infection spreading to the inner ear. That could cause dizziness. Sorry if this is completely ill-informed, but I will look at it later in depth.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 7, 2009)

Thanks Amy 
I don't know what i would do if anything happened to Little Bunny..

Just hope these meds wear off....


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## Maureen Las (Jul 7, 2009)

How is Little Bunny , Amy? :expressionless


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## Flashy (Jul 7, 2009)

Eep, just read all you've been through overnight (well, overnight for me). Poor you and poor little bunny.

I too wonder how she is? and also how you are doing?


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## Amy27 (Jul 7, 2009)

She made it through the night. But still is refusing to eat. They want to hospitalize her tomorrow if I can't get her to eat today. She didn't have any diarrhea last night so they are not going to do the enema. I picked up sub q fluids and am going to do 100ml 2-3 times a day. 

I will be upset if they hospitalize her. I don't know if I think that is the best. But they are an ER clinic so a vet would be on staff 24-7 so I guess that is a good thing. 

Claire, I never thought of an inner ear infection. That would also explain why I just noticed how bad she was in the car the last few times I have taken her to the vet. I will ask the vet about it. How do they diagnosis ear infections? Can they tell just by looking in the ears? 

Thank you all for being here for me. I really appreciate it.


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## Flashy (Jul 7, 2009)

I'm so glad she is still fighting, but sad that things are so rough for you both.

An ear infection can not always be diagnosed by looking in the ear. I believe they need to culture it to identify if there is an infection there, but someone else will probably clarify on that.

If it is an ear infection that might also contribute to her not eating because she may be feeling disorientated with it.


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## Amy27 (Jul 7, 2009)

She is fighting and I am proud of how good she is being for me. Since I got home from work (I worked a half a day) I got 100 ml of sub q's in her, 10ml of critical care, 1 piece of hay and 1 bite of carrot. Plus she peed on me  I will try to give her more sub q's and critical care this evening. 

Flashy the vet took a culture of her nasal discharge and that showed Bordetella but I am wondering now if she has both. I am definatly going to bring this up to the vet.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 7, 2009)

I guess that she could have more than 1 infection going on...I hope that she can get back on antibiotics soon. 

We are used to the "baytril underdosing vets on here" and not used to the ones who actually try the correct drugs.....(even if they didn't work 
the way we planned) Did your vet have heart surgery today? ;; if so who will cover???


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## Amy27 (Jul 7, 2009)

She did have heart surgery today. She told me after today she could be reached on the phone. There will be other vets in the office but they are not as rabbit savvy. This makes me really uncomfortable. I don't trust the other vets. I am not sure what I will do if things don't get better. I believe the vet will call in and get updates from her vet tech who called me several times today for an update. I think she returns on thursday or friday. She said 3-4 days.


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## BethM (Jul 7, 2009)

Amy, I am just now seeing this. I am so sorry to hear that Little Bunny is not feeling well. 

I don't have any medical advice, but I wanted you to know that I'm keeping you, Little Bunny, and Chase in my thoughts.

ray:


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## Amy27 (Jul 7, 2009)

Thank you Beth

Little Bunny is being more active tonight. When I opened her cage she came right out. I also caught her eat one piece of hay by herself.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 7, 2009)

That is good news ..must have been the zithromax


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## JadeIcing (Jul 8, 2009)

So sorry have not been around here. I will post a response to your questions when I get out of work. I am picking up 3 maybe 6 dogs tomorrow for the weekend so been getting ready.


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## Amy27 (Jul 8, 2009)

Thanks Ali, sounds like you are going to have a very busy weekend. 

Little Bunny is still not eating. I am out of ideas and getting frustrated. I don't understand how she can still not be eating.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 8, 2009)

Yeh that is strange you would think that she would have started by now. I'm sure that you are probably syringe feeding her....

Will she eat anything out of your hand?


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## tonyshuman (Jul 8, 2009)

At least she is getting a lot of water. I would have thought that would get her gut going, but it is probably more than a GI slowdown that's making her not want to eat. I'm sure the buprenex is helping with pain, but it will also slow down the GI. Tooth pain could also be making her not want to eat.

The metronidazole confuses me. That's typically given for an overgrowth of clostridium, or sometimes as an antibiotic or for "worms". Maybe it's causing GI upset? Do you know why that was prescribed?

Ali, what do you give Ringo to make him feel less dizzy? Meclizine?

This is hard because the problems are overlapping and could be affecting each other. We know she has some spurs, we know she has bordatella in her upper respiratory tract. She's on at least one antibiotic that could cause gut slowdown, and pain meds that can do that too. She was given a gut stimulant, but it didn't do a lot of good. The antibiotics can also make her not want to eat, along with the spurs and the upset stomach. :?


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## Amy27 (Jul 8, 2009)

angieluv, I am giving her the critical care but according to the vet tech I am not giving enough. I gave her 23ml's yesterday and 28 ml's today. I syringe the critical care and Little Bunny just lets it sit in her mouth. I have tried rubbing her nose, neck and petting her to get her to swallow. Or she will just let it run out of her mouth. 

Claire, the vet didn't explain the reason for giving the metronidazole real good. I know she mentioned it was an antibiotic to help her GI tract. But then when I got home I was thinking what good would an antibiotic do if there isn't an infection. 

The buphrenex was only given on monday via an injection and now she is on metacam twice a day. They can give her more buphrenex but I declined because she was so out of it the day they gave it to her. 

I want to talk to the vet about all the meds she is on because I do think that they could be making it worse. I called today and the vet won't be back until Friday. 

I tried talking to the vet tech today but her and I clash a little bit. She just wants to push more meds via injection and I don't want to. 

Her activity last night was really good. When I let her out she went to Chase's gate like she normally does and banged on that and left some microscopic little poops. 

I am thinking of taking her in tomorrow and letting the vet tech give her some critical care since she feels she can get more into her and more sub q's as she would probably be able to get more of that into her. But going to the vet stresses her out pretty bad. 

Angieluv, if I try to feed her by hand she gets really upset. She will bite the hay off so it is really short and drop it. I tried to get her to eat a piece of dandilion yesterday and she got so mad she shredded it by ripping it with her mouth and dropping it. Today for a few hours I took her condos out of her cage so she had to lay on the floor next to all her food. She then laid on the magazine so I took that out and put hay all around her and I saw her eat a few pieces.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 8, 2009)

I was just looking up the metronidazole (Flagyl)in "When your rabbit needs Special care" by kathy smith/ Lucille Moore
it is givento prevent the growth of clostridium in the Gi tract if the rabbit is not eating and pooping . But it is to be used with caution. 

I have my own personal opinion on forcing the "correct " amount of CC down a bun when they are not eating. I, like Randy, feel hydration is most important but to force feed a lot of food on an inappetent rabbit is stressful... 
can you get pure canned pumpkin down her in a syringe; it is way easier to feed than CC. 

I have never fed a bun the amount a vet told me to feed but used my own judgment in giving some but not so much thatI am really stressing out the rabbit. 

This is just my own opinion and we really don't know what else is going on with her. 

any other way that you can describe her ?

is she [pooping?


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## tonyshuman (Jul 8, 2009)

If she's pooping, and acting normally, I wouldn't stress out about her not eating as much as normal. I know we always want our bunnies to be eating constantly, but with zithromax, it just doesn't seem to happen. I know Randy would mention that he had bunnies not eat for a few days and be fine if they were very ill. Did you try Nutri-Cal? As long as she's herself, is getting lots of water, and is pooing, I wouldn't syringe feed her a ton. 

Re: metronidazole: I bet they thought she had clostridium due to the runny poo after not pooing. Stasis can cause clostridium to overgrow, which then leads to diarrhea. I'd stop giving it if her poos are firm.


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## Amy27 (Jul 8, 2009)

I will try to describe somethings better. Her poop is really really small. If it wasn't for the fact she left more then one poop in a spot, I wouldn't even notice it. I can't even think of anything that small to describe it except a piece of dirt or dust. She doesn't poop throughout the day. She only poops at night when I let her out and she goes in front of Chase's cage. I didn't see any normal sized poops from last night/today. 

I still think she is holding her head funny at times, like I described her doing in the car where her head is up more towards the sky then normal. I tried to get a picture but when I go in her cage she sits up normal. This could be me just monitoring her more that I am noticing this. 

She is laying around more then normal but still has a good activity level. 

I have tried getting her and Chase all excited for a treat and she will get excited come to her cage and rub her chin on the treat. Then she will go to the side of her cage where Chase is to watch her eat the treat. It is like she wants it, but won't eat it. She has treats in her cage now that have been there for days. 

She did munch on 2 dandilion leafs while I was sleeping last night. But didn't eat anything else. 

That is all I can think of to describe her activity. Oh one more thing I noticed that is that she is licking and chewing on these wooden things I have hanging on her cage. She has had them for years and never has touched them. So I find it weird that she is now. If you have any specific questions, I would be happy to answer them. 

I am not going to really stress her out to give her as much critical care as they want. I am trying to follow her signs. When I feel she can't handle anymore I stop. Today she started this new thing when I try to feed it to her where she climbs up on my lap and will try to hide her face in my stomach or jump up on my chest and will put her head in my neck/hair area. To me, that shows me I am stressing her out. 

I stated above that I put hay around her. Well she moved some of it so I put a big piece from the bale of hay I have there. I have seen her picking at it, eating a few pieces here and there. 

I just can't wait for the vet to be back. I want x-rays done. What if it is something internal and we just contributed it to the antibiotic. I want more tests done and I want the medications she is on to be re-examined. I have never dealt with GI stasis so I don't know if this is normal time frame or not for a bunny to still not be eating normally. 

Right now she is cleaning her ears. She can't feel to bad to be up moving around and cleaning her ears I would think. I just don't understand if she feels ok why she isn't hungry. 

This is so confusing to me and I keep second guessing myself and the vet. The vet doesn't think Benebac is effective or nutrical. I have thought of just giving them anyways, it wouldn't hurt anything.

ETA: I did want to say that Little Bunny has always had smaller poops with some normal sized ones. She has always been a picky eater, never been big on eating during the day.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 8, 2009)

I think that she has something going on with an ear infection or something because of the one statement that you made about her holding her head up...
that struck me more than anything else......

I would give her benebac as it won't hurt her at all and maybe it won't help but it won't hurt.

it sounds as if you have a good handle on feeding her correctly 

Ialso wish that your vet was back...

if her poops are small I would continue the metronidazole 

The one thing I will say is that I don't think that she has not been completely diagnosed , like Claire said earlier there is more than one issue going on..........


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## JadeIcing (Jul 8, 2009)

*tonyshuman wrote: *


> Ali, what do you give Ringo to make him feel less dizzy? Meclizine?




Yes well Bonine. Which I buy with the car sick dremamine non drowsy. Pharmacist pointed out it is the same thing.


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## JadeIcing (Jul 8, 2009)

*Honestly it was what you described. Thats why I was thinking the same thing. It is why vet visits only if I can't treat what is bothering him. Even when he is doing well like he is now a car ride throws him for a huge loop. *

*Amy27 wrote: *


> *JadeIcing wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *Flashy wrote: *
> ...


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## Maureen Las (Jul 8, 2009)

One thing I forgot to mention is that bun in stasis will often chew on objects that they don't normally chew on ( sort of as a desire to have fiber but cannot eat at the moment) 
This may be why Little Bunny is chewing on different objects that usually don't interest her,,,,,,,,,,


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## Amy27 (Jul 8, 2009)

Angieluv, I agree that I think there maybe more going on then a reaction to Zithromax. I plan on asking for blood work and an x-ray. Is there any other test that I should ask for? Thanks for letting me know it is normal for stasis buns to chew on weird things. That was really throwing me for a loop. I did move it out of her cage and put more hay in that spot. If she wants to chew, I want it to be on food. 

Ali, Do you give your buns Dremamine nondrowsy that is used for humans? Do you mind telling me what your bun does that helped you make this diagnosis? I am just trying to figure out if this is motion sickness or something else. Thanks, I really appreciate it. 

Thank you guys for all your help. You are really helping me have the strength to keep fighting for Little Bunny.


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## JadeIcing (Jul 8, 2009)

*Amy27 wrote: *


> Ali, Do you give your buns Dremamine nondrowsy that is used for humans? Do you mind telling me what your bun does that helped you make this diagnosis? I am just trying to figure out if this is motion sickness or something else. Thanks, I really appreciate it.


Yes it is that one. In the buns I have treated for it I know they have head-tilt and had the dosing from the vet and pharmacist so I knew what to give. Just saves me and the rescue alittle money. I would talk to the vet about before trying it. Honestly doesn't harm the bunny so if the vet is ok it wouldn't hurt to try it and see if this is going on. 

I would ask for a deep ear culture. Just in case something else isn't going on. 

Pasteurella and Bordatella I forgot about this. Not a big thread but alittleinfo.


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## Amy27 (Jul 9, 2009)

Thanks Ali, I will talk to my vet about it. I also appreciate the suggestion of a deep ear culture. I will definatly ask for that to be done. 

I just went to the bathroom and walked by Little Bunny and noticed something dark on the floor nest to her. I had the light out so I couldn't see what it was. I turned the light on and it was a hay cube. She brought a hay cube out of her room and was eating it!!! I am so excited. She didn't eat that much but the fact that she did it on her own, I am so excited.


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## tonyshuman (Jul 9, 2009)

I think right now you just have to pull through until the vet is back. C'mon Little Bunny, eat that hay! I'll be thinking of you guys. How frustrating and scary.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 9, 2009)

*Amy27 wrote: *


> Thanks Ali, I will talk to my vet about it. I also appreciate the suggestion of a deep ear culture. I will definatly ask for that to be done.
> 
> I just went to the bathroom and walked by Little Bunny and noticed something dark on the floor nest to her. I had the light out so I couldn't see what it was. I turned the light on and it was a hay cube. She brought a hay cube out of her room and was eating it!!! I am so excited. She didn't eat that much but the fact that she did it on her own, I am so excited.


Very good news 
dragged out a hay cube ......


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## BethM (Jul 9, 2009)

*angieluv wrote: *


> One thing I forgot to mention is that bun in stasis will often chew on objects that they don't normally chew on ( sort of as a desire to have fiber but cannot eat at the moment)



Very true. Both times Nick went through stasis, he would be frantic to eat cardboard and linoleum off the cage floor. When he is feeling well, he will shred cardboard but not eat it, and he never eats linoleum. But when he was sick, it was all I could do to keep him from eating these things. It was very frustrating.

When he was on the Zithromax, he barely ate anything for the entire 5 days he was getting a daily dose, then ate a tiny bit the second every-other-day stretch. His eating was not normal until a few days after the Zithromax stopped. He did lose a bit of weight, but has put most of it back on now.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 9, 2009)

*BethM wrote: *


> *angieluv wrote: *
> 
> 
> > One thing I forgot to mention is that bun in stasis will often chew on objects that they don't normally chew on ( sort of as a desire to have fiber but cannot eat at the moment)
> ...


Beth
Did Nick get loose poops from zithromax ? I can' remember.? I am wondering if a lower dosage would have worked better with Little Bunny


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## Amy27 (Jul 9, 2009)

I decided since she was eating the hay I would go get her dinner (veggies)soaking in the sink to see if she would eat that. I come downstairs and she is eating one of the treats that has been in her cage for days. I just sat on the floor and cried as I listened to her eat that treat for several minutes. I am so happy. I thought for sure I would lose her Monday night. I hope this is the turning point. I haven't seen her eat this much in days.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 9, 2009)

Great ;; I hope that she continues with the same appetite 

she has usall worried...:nerves1


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## BethM (Jul 9, 2009)

*angieluv wrote: *


> Beth
> Did Nick get loose poops from zithromax ? I can' remember.? I am wondering if a lower dosage would have worked better with Little Bunny


Nick did not get loose poops. His poops got really really tiny, and more dry than normal. They were also more tear-drop shaped than the normal marble. They were maybe 1/8" around, and smaller, barely anything. I thought of his poops when Amy said Little Bunny's poops were very tiny. 
I was advised by someone in my rescue that she usually uses a lower dose for her rabbits, she said the "cat dose," and has less of a problem with appetite loss. She did say that she usually has to re-treat at this level, so there is a trade-off. 

I am not an expert, but maybe the lower dose would be better for a bunny that might have other issues, or is on a drug combination that would contribute to the appetite loss?


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## BethM (Jul 9, 2009)

I'm so glad Little Bunny is eating something!


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## Maureen Las (Jul 9, 2009)

*BethM wrote: *


> *angieluv wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Beth
> ...


very interesting; never heard this before 
very very interesting \

maybe get this woman to elaborate on this a bit more .....

Thanks Beth 

Maureen


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## BethM (Jul 9, 2009)

*angieluv wrote: *


> *BethM wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *angieluv wrote: *
> ...


Maureen,
I recall her saying that the dose for cats is quite a bit lower than that for rabbits. I *think* I remember her saying it would be half? I don't know the weight calculations for Zithromax, but there are different dosing guidelines for cats vs. rabbits. 
Nick (4.5lbs) was getting a dose of 1ml, I think. I was told that this was the higher "rabbit" dose.

She did say that when using the lower dose, she will have to either treat longer, or she will have to re-treat, as the lower dose won't totally clear things up. However. She said she rarely has appetite-loss at this level. Maybe good also for bunnies that might not be able to deal with much weight loss?

Our rescue meets this weekend, I will try to remember to ask for more specifics when I see her.


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## Amy27 (Jul 9, 2009)

Little Bunny didn't eat any of her veggies last night. So when I called the vet tech to give an update, she called the vet who wants to put her on the Cisapride. I don't want to give that to her.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 9, 2009)

if she is starting to eat then i agree with you


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## Flashy (Jul 9, 2009)

This is slightly off topic, sort of.

Now, this question is based on my very limited experience of meds. If the dose is reduced of the Zithi, to the cat dose and Little Bunny (or any bunny) could tolerate that, could the dose really gradually be increased to the maximum dose that the rabbit could tolerate without blasting out its system?

I know that theory can apply with some human meds but I'm not sure whether that can apply to an anti-biotic. Just thought I might throw that out there though.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 9, 2009)

I really don't know but i am going to make a new topic re, the children's version of this drug to see if the people who have used it successfully have been using something else other than the large amounts of syrupy liquid in it.


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## Amy27 (Jul 9, 2009)

Angieluv, she ate some of that hay cube and a the treat. But then ate no veggies that I gave her for dinner. I just don't want her to be in pain from it. 

Flashy that is a good question about starting the dose low and then gradually increasing it.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 9, 2009)

Is she eating any hay or pellets...?????


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## Amy27 (Jul 9, 2009)

She doesn't get pellets, just greens and hay. I have seen her eat a few pieces of hay here and there, but not a lot.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 9, 2009)

then you need to talk to the vet and use your own judgement . Cisapride is safer than reglan but still a gut stimulant...


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## Amy27 (Jul 9, 2009)

I struggled with this all day and I decided to give it. I am going to watch her closely and if I see any signs of pain, she won't have another dose. 

I can't talk to my vet until Monday. I guess she had some complications and is not coming in tomorrow. 

I was so mentally just done with all of this today that I called the vet tech who helped me with Chase and she came over after work. She is so amazing. We got lots of sub q's in the Little Bunny. I told her what was going on and she took a list of the symptoms and meds back to her vet office where she works to a vet who does basic rabbit care. He felt the meds were safe to give and that I should give them. Hearing another opinion really helped. He also recommended I get x-rays as there could be something else going on. 

It is times like these that make you realize how great people are. You guys and the vet tech have helped me so much. I don't know what I would do without you guys. 

Crossing my fingers this drug works. If she doesn't eat by tomorrow they are going to give me all her meds in injectable form. Incase they are not working because her GI tract isn't absorbing anything.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 10, 2009)

I think that you did the right thing because you explored different options and thought it out ..

I also think there is something else going on with Little Bunny butI don't know what . 

Ithink she should have a very thorough ear exam because of the car ride. incident 

"Hugs
" 
Maureen 
You are going through hell 
but holding up well ray:


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## tonyshuman (Jul 10, 2009)

Yeah, the second opinion was a great idea. I remember BethM going through such little appetite with Nick when he was on Zithromax too, and it was such an excruciating, scary wait for the medicine to be done and his gut to improve. In any case, hang in there. :hugs:


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## Amy27 (Jul 11, 2009)

I decided not to do the second opinion. Because I knew, come monday I would take her back to the other vet. So I just decided to wait. Plus I didn't have the money to go to a vet today and monday. They wanted me to give meds via injection so I picked that today. Wasn't a fun day as I ended up arguing with the vet tech. She just kept telling me what they wanted me to do and I wanted more information. I demanded answers to some questions where she just kept beating around the bush.

But it was all worth it when Little Bunny ate really good tonight. She went crazy eating, like she was starving. I am sure she was considering it has been 7 days now. I am trying to not get as excited as I did last time because that didn't last long. But this time she was really eating like crazy and ate a lot. So I am hoping. 

If she only eats greens will she have mushy poops? I am just wondering if I should encourage her to eat some hay or let her eat whatever she wants. 

Thank you guys for all your help. This was really rough for me and Little Bunny. I was really upset today as the vet tech was telling me that at this point she may not go back to normal with her GI tract since it was off track for so long and with everyday she has a less chance of survival and going back to normal. 

Cross your fingers she keeps eating.


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## Amy27 (Jul 11, 2009)

She is still eating. She is taking a break here and there to throw some stuff around her cage but keeps going back and eating. I can't believe how much she has eaten.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 11, 2009)

that's realy great
if she had been used to eating a lot of greens before her problems then the greens should be Ok but I would continue to try to get her to eat hay and pellets too(I know that you probably are )

lets 

hope for the best ray:

andI admire that yu are questioining the tech and not just letting her tell you what they are doing ; that is he way all of us should work to be ...


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## Flashy (Jul 11, 2009)

I'm so glad she is eating  that's a huge relief 

Remember that Randy has said on many occassions he has had buns not eat for a week but if they are hydrated then they can come out ok, so try not to panic too much over the vet tech and what s/he said.


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## BethM (Jul 11, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> I'm so glad she is eating  that's a huge relief
> 
> Remember that Randy has said on many occassions he has had buns not eat for a week but if they are hydrated then they can come out ok, so try not to panic too much over the vet tech and what s/he said.


We recently took a bunny into our rescue, and the day she came in was hugely stressful for her. (She came into the rescue, was introduced to a bondmate, and was separated from her two (adult) babies, who were adopted out that day.) She did not eat for about 10 days. Her foster mom tried everything to get her to eat, but settled on just keeping her hydrated. She eventually started eating again, and is now doing quite well. 

I am really glad that Little Bunny is eating again! I hope she continues to feel better.


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## tonyshuman (Jul 11, 2009)

Yay for eating!


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## Amy27 (Jul 12, 2009)

Thanks guys. I am happy to know that Little Bunny should be able to make a full recovery. She seems to be doing a good job of it so far. She is still eating good and she had some normal poops.


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## Amy27 (Jul 12, 2009)

I was cleaning Little Bunny's cage and noticed she had some loose stool. I noticed she kept licking her butt or doing something down there, so I flipped her over and she is really red and inflammed down there. I am confused about why she would be irritated down there. She had normal poops last night to. Should I give her a butt bath? She doesn't have poop stuch down there.


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## Pipp (Jul 12, 2009)

What is her pee looking like and is she straining to pee at all? 

Reading this thread from the top I'm the most concerned about two things -- unless I'm missing something, the vet should have cultured the nasal discharge, and should have done head x-rays using a sedative. My vet never uses gas for procedures like that, he uses Domitor to put them under and another drug to bring them out of it. 

Is she on Metacam? Up until now most of her problems seem to have been head-based, but it is possible she has sludge or a urinary tract infection or something, or she could be dribbling because of the drugs -- Metacam in particular slows the blood flow to the kidneys. I know it's caused Pipp to strain to pee in the past and may have caused dribbling. The irritation would be urine scald. Just a thought. 

Do you have photos? 


sas ray:


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## Pipp (Jul 12, 2009)

Amy27 wrote:


> She had normal poops last night to. Should I give her a butt bath? She doesn't have poop stuch down there.



PS: She can have normal poops and runny cecals all at the same time.


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## Amy27 (Jul 12, 2009)

I just looked at again and I think it might be urine scald. She has urine on her foot and I noticed some break down of the hair. I will go take some pics right now and post them. 

The vet took a culture a few months ago. But I want another culture before putting her on another antibiotic. She was on metacam during all this so maybe that is doing it. I know her bottom wasn't irritated yesterday. Today she just won't leave it alone.


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## Pipp (Jul 12, 2009)

If the 'root' of the problem is a head abscess, she'd be needing strong antibiotics for months to knock it out -- usually a injectable/oral combo. 

And Metacam really really needs to be administered with food and a lot of water.

What does her pee look like? It shouldn't have red strings in it, be pasty white or be completely clear, either. 


sas :?


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## Pipp (Jul 12, 2009)

Oh, and a butt bath or just a warm wash cloth will make her more comfortable, and maybe some cornstarch to keep her dry. 


sas


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## Amy27 (Jul 12, 2009)

The pictures are not that great but I hope they help. 

Pictures of her bottom

















This is her foot






The spot on her foot where the hair is gone 











And everything








I am going to have to give her a bath. The hair on her feet is really hard and dirty. Can I just clean her in water or do I have to use some type of soap. 

It is hard for me to see her urine in the litter box as her litter is dark. It does look like in one spot that her urine is dark orange. She was on sub q's most of the time she was on the metacam and I was giving her critical care but I don't know if it was enough.


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## Pipp (Jul 12, 2009)

I'd take the litter away and just have paper or plastic there in order to check. 

And the sub-q would be plenty for supporting the metacam therapy, the Critical Care (well soaked) supplies even more fluids so it shouldn't be a problem. 

Definitely no soap. I'd just use a warm washcloth, easier, safer and less stressful. 


sas :bunnydance:


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## Amy27 (Jul 12, 2009)

Thanks Sas for your help. I really appreciate your fast response because it was freaking me out and I wasn't sure what to do. 

I got her all cleaned up. She is not a happy bun right now lol. When I was cleaning her back feet I noticed that she has 2 spots on each back foot, in the same spot where the hair is gone. The skin doesn't seem to be broken down. Is that normal? She is on carpet. 

I am going to clean her area and I will take the litter out of her litter box. The Little Bunny had sludge before but the vet didn't think it was anything to be concerned about because it was such a small amount. She just wanted to check it once a year at her yearly appointment. I plan to take her in Friday when I get paid and get lots of tests done. So hopefully I can find out then exactly what is going on with her. I hope it isn't anything serious. Dealing with Chase and my sick cat, I don't think I can handle any more. Please send good thoughts our way that the tests come back normal. I don't know what I will do if they don't. I really am at my limit, emotionally and financially.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 12, 2009)

*Amy27 wrote: *


> I was cleaning Little Bunny's cage and noticed she had some loose stool. I noticed she kept licking her butt or doing something down there, so I flipped her over and she is really red and inflammed down there. I am confused about why she would be irritated down there. She had normal poops last night to. Should I give her a butt bath? She doesn't have poop stuch down there.


I don't know what the pieces in this puzzle are . When is the vet herself back Amy?
Is it urine scald...?


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## Pipp (Jul 12, 2009)

A lot of ailments are 'opportunistic', which is to say they become bad when the rabbit is stressed (medically or otherwise) and the immune system is weak. So one thing can lead to another. 

I hope she's feeling better soon! Meanwhile, get her to drink as much as you can. 

And the spots are probably mild sore hocks, they'll get those from carpet. Keep an eye on it. Maybe try grass mats on the carpet. Bag Balm is a product used for irritated cow udders that works well for sore hocks and urine scald. 

WHat's her diet like? You may want to increase low-calcium veggies like lettuce and decrease pellets. 


sas :expressionless:


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## Amy27 (Jul 12, 2009)

On Friday they said the vet will be back tomorrow. I can afford a vet visit tomorrow, but I can't afford all the tests I want run. This vet is very expensive and I think it will be $600-$700 ust from calculating what they charged for tests to be run on Chase. 

Most of what was on her was diarrhea I think. There was som urine also but on her feet it appeared to be diarrhea. She had diarrhea twice last night and I don't know what she did in it but it was smeared everywhere. I had to throw her condo away because it was everywhere. So I am not sure if it was urine scald. I have never seen urine scald before to really know though. Her butt wasn't really dirty, it was her feet. She even had the tops of her front feet all nasty. 

Sas, she doesn't get pellets or high calcium veggies because of Chase's bladder stones. I feed them both the same thing. 

I will keep an eye on her feet and also have the vet look at them. 

She gets unlimited Timothy hay and I got Orchard hay I think it was from Kleenmama's that I am mixing with the Timothy. She also gets greens twice a day. But she doesn't usually eat her morning greens. 

Neither of my rabbits are big water drinkers. Drives me crazy. I have tried flavoring their water and everything. That is one reason they get so many veggies. I also soak the veggies for atleast an hour so they get lots of water from it. 

I feel like I am doing something wrong that they are both sick all the time. I just don't know what I could be doing wrong. They are both at the vet all the time. The vet knows their living conditions and what I feed them and there doesn't seem to be any issue but I would think there would have to be a reason they are both so sick. I don't think this is normal.


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## Pipp (Jul 12, 2009)

If she had normal poops as well as the diarrhea, best to keep her on hay and water for 24 hours or so. Gas meds and tummy rubs may ward off further upsets if she's looking like she's uncomfortable. 

Do they go outside at all? There are so many environmental issues as well as parasites, etc, that it could be anything. Or nothing -- the luck of the draw. 

Things like mycotoxins from bad feed or raccoon roundworm or 
whatever will present with a large variety of symptoms. And to be honest, you can't even test for things like that. 

Try changing everything from your veggie supplier to hay to pellets. I'm not sure it's documented or even true, but after seeing the wildly different nutrient contents of plant matter from one field to another much less one area to another, it's not out of the realm of possibility to me that one field may be harbouring a pesticide or organism that just isn't detectable by anything but a rabbit's system, who knows. 

Is there any time they've been healthier or unhealthier than any other time? 

In the case at hand, I'm still not convinced the nasal discharge was explored well enough to begin with. If antibiotics seems to help, then maybe there is a tooth root or other infection going on. If at any time the antibiotics helped the symptoms, it could be she just wasn't on them long enough. 

If that's the case, forget the tests and just go back on antibiotics? 


sas :?


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## Pipp (Jul 12, 2009)

PS: It really may be 'something in the water', given that Chase had stones, I wonder if filtered water would help. Hmmm...


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## Amy27 (Jul 12, 2009)

Sas, 
Most of this started about 2 years after I moved to a new condo. That is the only thing I can think of. A lot of stuff obviously changed when I moved. Their environment, where I was buying thier veggies and the water. I have tried filter water and bottled water with no change. I buy their veggies from several different stores, depending on which one has the best quality. The last year has been one sickness after another. Before that they were rarely sick. Chase had some runny poop once and it cleared up in a few days. I had taken her to the vet and got some meds for her bottom. Little Bunny had a really bad experience being spayed. That is all. Since January of this year, I have been to the vet with one of them at least once a month. They don't go outside at all. I can't think of anything else that has changed. I changed the hay supplier about 6 months ago from store bought hay to kleenmama's. But Chase's issues started before I changed. 

I agree that the nasal discharge was not explored properly. At first I just agreed with the vet that it was probably the Bordetella Little Bunny was diagnosed with a few months ago. When she was diagmosed, it was cultured. But it wasn't this time. I will not agree to any antibiotics unless she is cultured again. She hasn't even had any discharge since I took her in last Friday. 

I am going to have them run several tests. I want x-rays done of her head/teeth, bladder/stomach area, nasal culture, blood work, and deep ear culture. If you can think of any other tests I should have done, please let me know. I would rather have them all done now so we can get to the real issue, whatever it is and get it taken care of. 

What exactly is Domitor that your vet uses for the head x-rays? I am real cautious about what they use to put Little Bunny under because of the issues she had after she was spayed was due to the type/method of anesthesia they used. Is it something that is injected? I will never let them use anything on her that is put up her nose. That is where she had the issues after her spay. They damaged some tissue in her nose/throat area from shooting anesthesia up her nose. For a year it sounded like she couldn't breathe.


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## Pipp (Jul 13, 2009)

Domitor is an injectible (IM or IV), but I'm backing off recommending it. I first researched it three or four years ago when it was relatively new and very well received, but now I'm seeing some vets concerned about the slowing heart and respiratory rates (as well as the commonly used drug to bring them out of it is being blamed for some slow recoveries), so it's likely a case-by-case thing. There are disadvantages to gas as well. 

My vet likes it because he said he can control it better than gas, but I don't trust any one source about anything, I'd be more comfortable looking into it further. 

It could be that the problems started when you moved to the new condo, or it could be that both bunnies had different problems that developed into other problems, so hard to know. 

I don't trust chemical carpet cleaners, any pesticides (even ones used years previously) or much else. (As much as Snopes seems to have totally dispelled fear of using the Swiffer map with their (company-fed) urban myth buster when I know that every time I have used it ALL of my pets have thrown up, gone off their food or gotten depressed, I don't trust that either). 

The more I learn the less I realize I know.

sas :expressionless:


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## Pipp (Jul 13, 2009)

PS: Always suspicious when the same area is involved. The nasal and possible inner ear or neurological issue may be related to the anesthetic, or vice-versa. 

Where there's smoke there's fire? 


sas :expressionless:


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## tonyshuman (Jul 13, 2009)

I'm sorry I don't really have anything to add. Your plan sounds good. I'm sorry that so many bad things are going on with you guys. One thing I can think of for the water is that there are tests for aquariums for calcium. You could use that to see how much calcium is in the water. However, since you tried the other types of water without success, and the test would just tell you how fish would do in the water, it might not be worth it.

HUGE hugs to you guys. I'm so sorry that everything is so difficult all at once. I'm rooting for you all...


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## Amy27 (Jul 13, 2009)

Thanks Sas for explaining the Domitor. 

Thanks for the kind words Claire, I really appreciate it. I companies will come test your water for free hoping you will buy their product. I looked into that but then when I got the filter I never followed through. I really should call them again.

Thank goodness the vet was back today. I spoke with her and she wants me to give Little Bunny a break before bringing her in. She gets really stressed going to the vet and they don't want me to bring her in unless I have to until her system has some time to get back to normal. So I am taking her in next friday. They are going to do the x-rays of her head and bladder/stomach area at that time. She is also going to check her ears and do another culture of her nasal discharge. I told the vet I don't want her put on any meds unless a test is done showing she needs it. So it sounds like we have a good plan. 

Little Bunny is eating better and better everyday. She didn't have any runny poops last night.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 14, 2009)

Amy ..I'm sorry that you are going through so much sickness with your buns (hugs)
I'm glad that Little Bunny is eating better and doesn't have diarrhea tonight but I think that it's a great idea to get a really thorough exam to try to find out what is causing all this...
it will be interesting to get all those test results back after Fri. 
I hope that she does OK until then...ray:
Maureen


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## Luvr of Wabbits and Polar Bears (Jul 14, 2009)

Amy I've followed your thread but never have an useful answers.

Just wanted to say that I think you are a wonderful Slave to Chase and Little Bunny. I'll keep your bunny's in my thoughts that they continue to improve.

I know it's stressful taking care of sick bunnies. Your doing a great job!

:hug::hug1


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## JadeIcing (Jul 14, 2009)

I think running all those test are the best thing possible. That way you can attack whatever is messing with her. Good luck.


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## Amy27 (Jul 30, 2009)

Sorry it has taken me so long to respond. I wasn't able to have all the tests run on Little Bunny. I didn't realize the x-rays on the head and teeth were $500. So I told the vet what I could spend ($600-$700) and asked what tests she felt were most important. So we did the head and teeth x-rays and did the ear culture. Everything came back good. The teeth x-rays showed one side is getting close to the end of the socket so in a year or so I may have to have her teeth done on that side, but it isn't anything that should be causing problems right now. So for now she is eating great and acting like herself so I am going to hold off doing the other tests unless I see problems. We also decided not to put her on antibiotics, which caused this whole issue, as I haven't seen any nasal discharge. The vet thinks maybe something in the home is causing the discharge, but I can't think of anything that has changed. I will keep a close eye on her and if needed will take her back for the rest of the tests that I wanted to have done. 

Thank you guys for all your help and support.


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## tonyshuman (Jul 30, 2009)

OOF that's expensive. I'm glad you got the x-rays and things seem to be better right now. I wish we could figure out what it was that seems to be allergic to... Keep us updated if there are changes. You're such a good bunny mom!


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