# RIP: Tiny has bladder infection/sludge (thought it was seizures)



## TinysMom (Feb 1, 2008)

I can't lose him - I can't......I just dont' know what to say....

I'll write more in a bit - but I don't think he's going to make it and I don't know why....he can't even take a treat

Peg


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## TinysMom (Feb 1, 2008)

Tiny'sSis here . . Tiny is having a hard time holding his head up, and won't touch banana, or any treats . .


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## Pipp (Feb 1, 2008)

Keep him warm and very calm ... and stay calm. 

Don't try and feed treats or give water or anything else, just get everything relaxed... take a deep breath... 



s ray:


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## JadeIcing (Feb 1, 2008)

Oh no. Many prayers heading your way.


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## AngelnSnuffy (Feb 1, 2008)

:tears2:ray:


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## maherwoman (Feb 1, 2008)

Peg just called and asked me to move this to the Infirmary for her.

She doesn't think he's going to make it...she's holding him in her lap and giving him love...

Please pray for her, guys...I really don't know how this is going to affect her...

Please pray that he makes it through this...

C'mon, Tiny, Sweetie...please make it...oh god...:tears2:


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## Pipp (Feb 1, 2008)

Can somebody provide as much background as possible? 

Any unusal behaviour prior to the onset? Any change of appetite, habits? 

Any different foods? 

Any prior signs of weakness? 

Any access to anything toxic? 



s


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 1, 2008)

I'm thinking there is something in their water supply or something else that is getting to the rabbits.

I wonder if she's using some sort of dish that has lead in the paint or something like that.

Do they have anyone who comes in and sprays for bugs?

Do they use lawn treatment companies?

Do they have oil or gas and is it leaking? do they have a CO2 detector?


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## Pipp (Feb 1, 2008)

*"True seizures are rare in rabbits. When observed, they show a swift onset and last a few minutes. Recovery is generally complete." *

- that said, seizures are also a symptom of all kinds of other ailments,from heart attacks to organ failure to poisoning, and can also be a pain response from stasis or any number of things. 



sas ray:ray:ray:ray:ray:ray:ray:ray:ray:ray:ray:ray:ray:ray:ray:ray:ray:ray:ray:ray:ray:ray:ray:ray:ray:ray:ray:ray:ray:


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## maherwoman (Feb 1, 2008)

When Peg called a moment ago, she said that it might not have been that he's having seizures...that he might just be trying to hold his head up, which he just cannot do at this point.

She really doesn't think he's going to make it...but I'm pullin' for him...

C'mon, Sweetie....ray:


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## JadeIcing (Feb 1, 2008)

Come on Tiny. We are all pulling for you.


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## TinysMom (Feb 1, 2008)

Peg here quickly.

The only thing is Tiny has been going through a bad molt. He's been eating/drinking/pooping/peeing normally. To my knowledge - no access to anything toxic.

We had sore hocks that we treated and also some sort of a minor thing we were treating (hard to explain - red spot that had lost some fur - like he had overchewed on it).

No prior signs of weakness that I noticed. He hasn't been as affectionate with me the last couple of days - and about 10-15 minutes before I first posted - I noticed his head going up and down like he was having some sort of a seizure. Now it is like he's fighting to hold his head up and stay awake. His heart was racing - now it is slowing down.

He was really really hot there for a bit and now he's getting cooler - much cooler. 

I don't know what else to say or add and I really want to be beside him - but it was quicker for me to respond than to try and dictate to Robin...

Peg


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## TinysMom (Feb 1, 2008)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> I'm thinking there is something in their water supply or something else that is getting to the rabbits.
> 
> I wonder if she's using some sort of dish that has lead in the paint or something like that.
> 
> ...


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## Pipp (Feb 1, 2008)

*TinysMom wrote: *


> I don't know what else to say or add and I really want to be beside him - but it was quicker for me to respond than to try and dictate to Robin...


k, go stay with him, keep him warm and calm, honestly, that's all you can do right now. 



sas :clover:


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## maherwoman (Feb 1, 2008)

I hate to call your attention back to the forum...but have you contact Randy, Peg?

Edited to add: I quickly IM'd Peg to see if she'd contacted Randy, just to throw the idea out there, and Robin responded to let me know that she'd paged him.

Keep prayin' guys...

C'mon Tiny...Teeny's prayin' for you, too...be strong, Sweetheart...


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## maherwoman (Feb 1, 2008)

Word from Robin: "he is lying on the floor with a towel draped over him, she is sprawled next to him and talking to him"

"She" being Peg.


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## 12354somebunny (Feb 1, 2008)

please be ok, tiny ..

we're all praying hard for you ray:ray:ray:


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## TinysMom (Feb 1, 2008)

Sis again. Tiny is feeling a bit warmer. Mom doesn't know whether to give sub-cutaneous fluids or not. He has been observably eating and drinking normally today - up until just a bit ago. -and he just peed.


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## f_j (Feb 1, 2008)

Oh no...I hope he's okay! This must be so scary. My thoughts are with you both ray:ray:ray:


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## SnowyShiloh (Feb 1, 2008)

Oh no!!! I hope Tiny pulls through! Come on, buddy... :cry2 I know I'm certainly no expert on this topic, but Cinnabun experienced something similar a few months before he died... I saw him tipping forward out of the corner of my eye but he sat up again by the time I jerked my head to look at him. Over the next couple minutes he rapidly deteriorated and it looked like he was seizing, though I think he was actually struggling to get up since he was lying on his side. Like Tiny, he wouldn't eat even his favorite treats and pooped on the towel. I was beside myself and basically hysterical and thought he was dying, I was sure he was dying (I was 16 and had had Cinny almost half my life and wasn't good at staying calm). My mom rushed home from work and we practically flew to the vet's, it turns out he was dehydrated (his stupid water bottle had been leaking for a few days so I couldn't tell how much he was drinking, what bad timing on that- we immediately got a new water bottle after this) and the vet injected him with some fluids. Cinnabun and I spent a miserable night as all the excess fluid left his system, but by the next evening he had completely perked up.

Do you think something similar could be happening with Tiny? The vet thought Cinny just forgot to drink since he was old and got dehydrated from it. I was sure Cinnabun was going to die in my arms that day but I'm so glad we rushed him to the vet anyway... I wouldn't want poor Tiny to spend his last minutes being jostled in a car and at a scary vet office, but maybe it's worth a try?

I'm so, so sorry, Peg!! I will be checking this thread constantly until we hear news, hopefully good news.


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## BEAUKEZRA (Feb 1, 2008)

I'm praying for you ray:. Stay with us Tiny!


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## JimD (Feb 1, 2008)

ray:


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 1, 2008)

Could the tiny red spot have been a spider bite?


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## Pipp (Feb 1, 2008)

*TinysMom wrote: *


> Sis again. Tiny is feeling a bit warmer. Mom doesn't know whether to give sub-cutaneous fluids or not. He has been observably eating and drinking normally today - up until just a bit ago. -and he just peed.



Definitely no SubQ without a diagnosis, IMO.

Is he on any other meds? 

I'm still searching for some possibles, though, hang tough... 



sas


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## TinysMom (Feb 1, 2008)

Sis here - Tiny has a dog-style water dispenser, which we have been careful to keep full - he has had access to water though that's no proof that he's been drinking it . . 

He lays his head down, then has to pull it up . . lays it down, has to pull it up . . maybe it is harder for him to breathe head-down?

The nearest emergency vet is over three hours away, if there is one in San Antonio . . that is the one thing I personally mould change about our town: we need a rabbit vet! D:


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## cheryl (Feb 1, 2008)

Oh no..come on Tiny!

ray:lots and lots of prayers from me


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## missyscove (Feb 1, 2008)

I, too, am praying for Tiny.


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## Haley (Feb 1, 2008)

ray:


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## Luvmyzoocrew (Feb 1, 2008)

oh my god Tiny come on pull through!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!ray:ray:ray:


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## TinysMom (Feb 1, 2008)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> Could the tiny red spot have been a spider bite?


No - it was definitely where he had chewed himself - I showed a picture to a breeder (Blue Giants) and we discussed whether this could have caused his sore hocks or whether it was caused by his sore hocks and how he was sitting differently.

As I write this - he is laying in his bed. He grinds his teeth fairly often and makes little noises (that I recognize because I'm around him so much). He never quite developed a voice like Rosie's Teeny. 

His whole body is moving with every breath he takes and every heartbeat he makes.

Some more observations...

a. He has peed twice since this started. He acts like it is hard to pee - not sure if it is uncomfortable with his sore hocks or what....but he has peed.

b. He does not appear to have lost any weight and other than the really bad molt - he was in good shape. In fact, he was starting to come through the molt.

c. He will not take a banana or his treats or anything. In fact, he turns away from them. (Miss Bea has eaten a bit of the banana - she went over by him for a bit and then left - I'm not sure if she knows how ill he is or what - I'm guessing she does...).

Peg

edited to add: There are no sounds of congestion in his chest (like pneumonia or anything like that)


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## maherwoman (Feb 1, 2008)

Still praying...ray:


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## tundrakatiebean (Feb 1, 2008)

ray:


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 1, 2008)

It just makes me think toxicity...... water or something...


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## Aina (Feb 1, 2008)

Prayingray:


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## CorkysMom (Feb 1, 2008)

Curiosity question...do you routinely worm? 

I wonder, is it possible that he has worms and hasn't been getting the nutrition he needs even tho he's eating? 


Possible toxins as Bo stated...definately could be onto something there.


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## Pipp (Feb 1, 2008)

Did he get up to pee? 

I think the fluid issue is in the area surrounding the heart and that compresses the lungs? I don't know. But increased urinary output I think is related to a heart/kidney thing,I just read something about that, but my computer's acting up, not sure I can get it back. 

I did see that the person managed to get through the episode, get her rabbit to a vet and got treatment. 

I'll keep looking. (Wish the computer was working a whole lot better). 



sas :nerves1


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## SOOOSKA (Feb 1, 2008)

Come on Sweet Tiny, I'll say a million prayers for you and your Mom.

ray:ray:ray:ray:ray:ray:ray:ray:

Susan


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## PixieStixxxx (Feb 1, 2008)

Oh no.. not Tiny!!

He's one of my favorite rabbits on this forum =[ I'm praying for you Peg and for Tiny.. 
Please Tiny, pull through for us!


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## Pipp (Feb 1, 2008)

*CorkysMom wrote: *


> I wonder, is it possible that he has worms and hasn't been getting the nutrition he needs even tho he's eating?
> 
> Possible toxins as Bo stated...definately could be onto something there.


Parasites, toxins and many other things are listed as possible causes of seizures, yes.

I don'tthinkwhat Tiny'sexperiencing is a seizure, for what it's worth. 



sas


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## Haley (Feb 1, 2008)

I keep thinking, is this a coincidence that Tiny is sick now too? Thats why I keep going back to something like toxins or poison or mold or something in the water etc. Something where it might hurt a little lionhead enough to be fatal but just make Tiny very sick...

Sending lots of prayers for your special boy.


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 1, 2008)

Do they have well water or city water? I'm wondering about 

Encephalitozoon cuniculi


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## CorkysMom (Feb 1, 2008)

Wasn't basing it on that...the lack of being able to get up etc, lack of nutrition from worms is where I was going with that....grasping at straws probably, but worth throwing out there....


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## TinysMom (Feb 1, 2008)

He did get up to pee, and I do treat the rabbits (including Tiny) for parasites. Thank you all for your replies . .


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## seniorcats (Feb 1, 2008)

Mold or mycotoxins in feed or hay? http://www.morfz.com/myco.html

If 'city' water, has the floridation level recently been increased that you know of?

Any possibility of lead in the water or any type old lead based paint?

Prayers for Peg and Tiny


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 1, 2008)

*This is where I am thinking things...... like we have well water, but there might be chlorine being added or something.*

*seniorcats wrote: *


> Mold or mycotoxins in feed or hay? http://www.morfz.com/myco.html
> 
> If 'city' water, has the floridation level recently been increased that you know of?
> 
> Prayers for Peg and Tiny


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## Phinnsmommy (Feb 1, 2008)

I'm so sorry Peg. I'll be praying


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## Pipp (Feb 1, 2008)

Normally I'd think the same thing about two rabbits falling ill right after each other, and while I definitely think all common denominators should be explored, you're dealing with odds, here. With that many rabbits in the house, illness in several is to be expected. 


And the symptoms are also pretty common for multiple medical issues, so... 



sas :dunno


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 1, 2008)

I suppose. 

I just try to think of the avenues I would take - went through this with Cathy, too.


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## Fluffball (Feb 1, 2008)

Hang in there Tiny!

I've seen rabbits come round/recover from things similar, to live. One I'm thinking of lived another two plus years.

You're doing great, you're doing all you can do. 

Get your butt in gear and fight, Tiny!


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## TinysMom (Feb 1, 2008)

I just got off the phone with Randy (who is such a Godsend to this forum - along with all of our other very helpful members).

We talked about various options - urinary infections (which we suspected for a bit also as we talked) and we talked about taking Tiny in to a rabbit hospital in San Antonio tonight. 

Randy & I looked at all sorts of things that could be causing problems - we talked about spider bites, etc. etc.

After a lot of discussion, Tiny is going to be getting something to help him relax and we are going to spend the night here. Randy knows somebody that would know who in San Antonio might be a good vet and he is going to try to contact them.

We do suspect heart issues but I won't go into the reasoning here because I do not want people to have a rabbit get sick and go "oh....its this" or "oh its that" without taking the rabbit to a vet.

Part of the reason we are not going in tonight is that we are not sure Tiny could survive the trip....and rather than have his last minutes be in the car in a carrier (I can't hold him for 150 miles)...we want them to be here with us if he is going to pass (which it does look like).

Continue to pray for Tiny....and for us to have the wisdom to make the right choices. If anything changes then we will try to do what is best for him....including a trip to the emergency vet.

Peg


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## maherwoman (Feb 1, 2008)

I know you're doing every single thing for him...and he knows that, too.

My heart is with you...

Love to you and Tiny both...


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## TinysMom (Feb 2, 2008)

*seniorcats wrote: *


> Mold or mycotoxins in feed or hay? http://www.morfz.com/myco.html
> 
> *I just bought new hay - but all of the rabbits have been eating the same hay.
> 
> ...


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##  (Feb 2, 2008)

I just read this and it honestly brought tears to my eyes. For Tiny, for Peg, for everyone on this forum. I've had a special place in my heart for Tiny and I can say without a doubt he was my favorite bun on this site. Even though I never met him and don't always respond to posts, I grew to love him in my own way.

I'm so sorry...and I know there's nothing that I can say or do to make things better. But I can assure you that everyone and everybun - Peg and Tiny included - will be in my thoughts and prayers tonight and every night.

I'm sending love, light, and healing...

<3 Alexah


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## Hazel (Feb 2, 2008)

I sincerly hope with all my heart that Tiny makes it through. I'm praying for you both.


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## BEAUKEZRA (Feb 2, 2008)

I feel the same way. Tiny is special to all of us. I'm praying for you Peg and Tiny.

:hug:


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## myLoki (Feb 2, 2008)

We're all praying for Tiny. 


ray:


t.loki.lilyl


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## GoinBackToCali (Feb 2, 2008)

I just got in...

I don't even have words..

I will be praying for him...


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## timetowaste (Feb 2, 2008)

c'monnn tiny, you're strong, see through this mess....c'mon tiny....

we're all praying for you and spiritually holding your hand...aka paw....

ray:ray:ray:ray:ray:

Tracy


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## angoragrl (Feb 2, 2008)

I just caught this thread and it brought me to tears. I'm praying for you guys.


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## naturestee (Feb 2, 2008)

Oh Peg I'm just seeing this now. I am truly wishing the best for Tiny and you. :hug:

And just an unexperienced note, respiratory distress is common in people with sudden heart problems. And I have heard that giant breeds are sometimes prone to heart issues.

But he stands up to pee? So it's probably not a spinal injury or something?


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## seniorcats (Feb 2, 2008)

More prayers and good thoughts. I firmly believe you are making the best choicefor Tinyright now. My heart aches for you.

I mentioned lead simply because our house is so old, we had to test the existing paint plus the layers underneath - that included painted floors and baseboards (common in the 1850's).


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## Pipp (Feb 2, 2008)

*naturestee wrote: *


> And just an unexperienced note, respiratory distress is common in people with sudden heart problems....
> But he stands up to pee? So it's probably not a spinal injury or something?



It's also common as a pain reaction, so it's so tough to know. 

I definitely think (as does Peg) that the urinary issues are significant -- he's been peeing frequently --but whether he's retaining fluids because of a heart issue or experiencing pain from a urinary issue is really hard to know, and unfortunately, the treatments for each are very different. 

But Tiny is in great hands, and he's still hanging in there as of talking to Peg a few minutes ago, so keep up those strong vibes and prayers.



sas ray: :clover: ray: :clover: ray: :clover: ray: :clover: ray: :clover: ray: :clover: ray: :clover: ray: :clover: ray: :clover: ray: :clover: ray: :clover: ray: :clover: ray:


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## TinysMom (Feb 2, 2008)

I wasn't going to update the forum for another hour or so - but I really REALLY need a nap....so I'm heading to bed for 90 minutes and I'll share a short update.

We are starting to suspect that it is indeed a bladder problem like Randy and I talked about. Now that Tiny is more calm and relaxed...he has peed several times and it is obvious that not only does it hurt to pee (or is uncomfortable) but his urine is very concentrated and there is a LOT of white chalky stuff in it. 

He just took about 1 1/2 cc of pedialyte from me and 4 cc of banana baby food also. 

Part of me does not want to leave him to go nap on the bed - and I'd bring him on the bed but it is quite high off the floor and if he fell or something - I'd feel even worse.

Robin is going to wake me up in 90 minutes and by then the dog's bed covers should be clean enough that I can move in here and sleep on the floor till early morning. I suspect if Tiny makes it through the night and this is a urinary issue - we will be making the trek to a San Antonio vet ASAP. I have looked up some vets and have some phone numbers ready to call first thing.

Just pray that I am correct and he is still alive and ok when I wake up in 90 minutes -ok? I'm sorry to nap....but I have to get some rest or I will really be bad off.

Peg


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## timetowaste (Feb 2, 2008)

he will be alive, he will pull through, and you will go to the vet tomorrow in san antonio!

it's true!

Tracy ray:ray:


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## Hazel (Feb 2, 2008)

Extra prayers coming your way.


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 2, 2008)

the pedia lite and the banana food are good. 

I pray he's ok in the morning and able to make the trip.

Poor baby. 

I'm think of you peg, I know you're doing all you can.


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## MsBinky (Feb 2, 2008)

Sending you all my love. I am praying hard for you guys.


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## SnowyShiloh (Feb 2, 2008)

Come on, Tiny! I'm thinking of you, big guy!!


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## TinysMom (Feb 2, 2008)

Well - one last update before I go to bed till about 5 am CST (maybe 6 am). We're currently setting up the clean dog bed w/ pillows in the office so I can sleep on the floor with Tiny. 

So how is he doing?

Honestly, I'm amazed at how much better he looks. Robin gave him 10 cc of baby food (he was turning up his nose at the pedialyte) and then she dumped the container into something and he wound up eating about 2/3 of it. Since then he has peed once more and was just grooming himself. Great - now he's setting himself up to sleep on MY bed............and he's POOPED on it once too.

I better go claim my bed while I can.....

Peg


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## TinysMom (Feb 2, 2008)

I couldn't resist - here he is making himself comfortable on MY bed for the night...


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## AngelnSnuffy (Feb 2, 2008)

I am so glad to hear this, Peg. Yay, Tiny!

Still sending good vibes and prayers.:hug:

Thanks for those pics, Peg! Awesome.


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## Fluffball (Feb 2, 2008)

I had a snigger at those pics. What a case you have there.

Tiny is soooooooooooo lucky to have you (as you are, him, obviously).

It's 8.22am here and he was the first thing I thought of when I woke up. I didn't want to read anything bad, but I have arrived to cute pics. 

I really hope that he continues to fight. Really, REALLY hope.

Thinking of you all.


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## TinysMom (Feb 2, 2008)

I'm about to update the title of the this thread to show it is most likely bladder issues - but folks - I need your prayers for something else.

It seems like a certain bun does NOT want to let his mama get some sleep. He lays beside me (in my arms almost) and I pet him and pet him. As soon as I stop...he sticks his nose in my face...under my arm...almost biting me but not quite. He just threw a towel around and is staring at me as if to say, "come back to bed and pet me mama....". Also - I suspect he thinks that this sleeping together on the floor is going to become an everyday occurence....you know "nap time with mama"....

Anyway - everytime I stop petting him or slow down - he makes sure I start again.

I need him to fall asleep so I can fall asleep...

Thanks so much.

Peg

Edited to add: His poop was pretty dry (for him) but still the right size and stuff.....

Ok - gotta go back to bed now - he's staring at me and begging me to come pet him....how is it he knows how to wrap me around his paws?


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## JimD (Feb 2, 2008)

ray:


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## AngelnSnuffy (Feb 2, 2008)

Sounds good to me.

Good Luck Peg. 

Tiny? Be good for Mama, I mean love her and talk to her. I'm pulling for you, Tiny, you get better, my Man.


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## cheryl (Feb 2, 2008)

Oh Peg...thank goodness Tiny is going to be ok 

Give Tiny lots of kisses on his sweet nose for me

Cheryl


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## maherwoman (Feb 2, 2008)

OH SO WONDERFUL...

I thought you'd already gone to bed for the night, Peg, or I would've checked the thread again sooner! Hehe...

I'm so so happy and so so relieved that he's doing better...and isn't that just like him to take advantage of you laying on the floor with him? Haha...he's certainly feeling better if he's not letting you sleep.

More prayers head your guys' way...


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 2, 2008)

Been tossing and turning with a cough. So got up and see this - great news!

Uhh, peg.........didn't your kids want their mama when they were sick?


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## LuvaBun (Feb 2, 2008)

With the time difference and all, I am just seeing this now.

OMG, Peg, you know how much I love Tiny (we all do) and my heart was sinking as I read all the early posts. I am relieved to hear that he was doing better, but I am still so worried for him (and you).

How is he doing now? Are you still going to the vet?

I am praying hard for him. C'mon Tiny, you are so special to this Forum, you just got to be OK.

Jan


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## Pipp (Feb 2, 2008)

Waiting anxiously for a Texas morning... 

I changed the title of the thread, took out 'bladder' issues,because we honestly don't know,he can't really be diagnosed over the Internet. Urinary tractissues are agood bet, but I think we should wait to see what the vet says. 

It's really looking like a pain reaction, great call on the Metacam. (Randy comes through again!). Just make sure hegets Pedialyte with it, Iremember how badof a time Pipp had trying to pee when she was taking itwhile dehydratedm, poor bunny. 

Here's hoping Tiny(and TinysMom)isfeeling even better when evertbodywakes up. 



sas :goodluck


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## TinysMom (Feb 2, 2008)

To say I am exhausted right now - would be a major understatement. I did get some sleep....in bits and pieces.

Then again - it was so nice to be able to check on Tiny every time I woke up....I don't think he was ever further than 2 feet away from me - and now that I'm up - he's chewing on a towel and trying to throw it around. (Its the towel Robin used to cover him up with). Ooh - and he's giving me the butt now.

His pee is almost like sludge....very very thick and concentrated and STINKY. I get to learn that from being on the floor and having him get off the bed (thanks sweetie) to pee beside it - and then get back on the bed with me.

I'm researching vets now - I think I know who I want him to go to. I wish our vet that is 70 miles away was open on Saturdays but they're not......I wish he could wait and see them on Monday (I've got a call in to Randy about this - I suspect seeing a vet today is his best option - I just want to make sure that it is worth the stress of the 3.5 hour trip vs. a 1.5 hour trip on Monday if he continues to get treatment here at home).

I will post right before we leave (if I remember) and I have the phone number for Rosie (maherwoman) and can call her from the vets once we're in the city and he's been seen.

Continue sending good thoughts. To be honest with you - considering the amount of pain he was in last night - I really REALLY thought it was his heart because of his breathing and how his heart was racing....... I wanted to think positive but with all of our losses - I couldn't.

Y'all gave me the strength to think positive....and I think y'all gave the strength to Tiny. He just peed on the bed (while staring at me) - so I suspect he's mad at me for not staying on the floor with him.

Now to prepare him for his trip.....if you see the pictures I posted up above you'll see I have a huge feed bucket that is used for horses. We're going to clean that out (we had some sickies in it ) and put a nice layer of hay in there and take him in that....and then have a carrier for when we actually take him into the vet. The bucket is like 2.5 times his size easily and he can have like a little bed in there and we can monitor him.

Peg


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## Pipp (Feb 2, 2008)

*TinysMom wrote: *


> His pee is almost like sludge....very very thick and concentrated and STINKY. I get to learn that from being on the floor and having him get off the bed (thanks sweetie) to pee beside it - and then get back on the bed with me.





> Continue sending good thoughts. To be honest with you - considering the amount of pain he was in last night - I really REALLY thought it was his heart because of his breathing and how his heart was racing.......


LOL! Nice of Tiny to make the problem so apparent during the night. (I should put 'bladder' back in the title). 

And Peg, the description really sounded awful, poor baby must have been in some pain. Poor guy! Hope you get a good vet. 



sas :hug1


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 2, 2008)

Aww, I've only just seen this.

Poor Tiny, and poor you, getting such a fright! I'm glad he's doing better this morning, I'll be thinking of you both and hoping for more good news.

Jen xx


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## JadeIcing (Feb 2, 2008)

I was scared to read this but thank god he is better.


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## TinysMom (Feb 2, 2008)

We're heading out in a few minutes - his "bed" is in the car and we're packing up some bananas, baby food w/ pumpkin, syringes, etc. to have with us. I also have the directions to 2 different vets - one is an emergency vet (my backup plan) and one is the vet I would prefer to have him see since one of the partners does handle exotics. I also have their phone numbers, etc. I called the vet I want him to see and left a message telling them we're bringing him in from 150+ miles away and that our cell probably won't work for most of the trip....I figured I could at least give them a heads up.



Miss Bea is currently throwing a tantrum - she was locked up all night because she was continually grooming his raw spot....twice before she has overgroomed him in the past so that he got a spot (not in this place) - and once GingerSpice did it too. Not sure bonded bunnies are ALWAYS the best option when one of them is too nice to say "lay off...I've groomed it enough already"...... She will stay behind (I had a hard time deciding that one but she doesn't need the stress of the trip and I'm not sure she would keep him from being stressed.

Peg


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## f_j (Feb 2, 2008)

I was nervous to check this thread this morning...but it sounds like he really improved! Good luck at the vet! I'm so glad he made it through the night!


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## GoinBackToCali (Feb 2, 2008)

I got up at 3 am to check to board.. nothing..

So I started calling Peg at 8 am..

No answer.. now I know why..

Good news of sorts indeed!

Not the best of news.. but better!


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 2, 2008)

I'm glad you're taking him to the vet. I will be thinking of you and him.... I'll check back and forth today. Sleeping with the flu.... but can't stand not checking on him.


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## gentle giants (Feb 2, 2008)

I can't believe I'm just now seeing this!! Peg, prayers and love to you and Tiny. I'm sure the vet will take good care of him and get this cleared up in no time. We are all here for you!

:grouphug ray: ink iris:


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## stargazerLily (Feb 2, 2008)

I just saw this. I hope Tiny does well on the trip and the vet is able to help him. Sending prayers your way.


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## 12354somebunny (Feb 2, 2008)

i'm so glad tiny has improved! inkbouce:

please keep us updated as soon as you're back from the vet!! lots of healing vibes coming you way, peg & tiny


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## timetowaste (Feb 2, 2008)

I'm confident that Peg is making the best decisions for Tiny and that he will pull through this with antibiotics. Drive safely, Peg! Be careful when you are overtired and exhausted! 

Good Luck Tiny!!

:goodluck:clover::clover::clover::goodluck

Tracy


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## Flashy (Feb 2, 2008)

:hug1


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## SnowyShiloh (Feb 2, 2008)

Yayayay Tiny! I hope he has a good trip to the vet and the bladder issue isn't TOO serious! Poor big boy.


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## Jenson (Feb 2, 2008)

Good luck, hope it goes well. Get better Tiny!


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 2, 2008)

any news?


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## JimD (Feb 2, 2008)

ray:


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## PixieStixxxx (Feb 2, 2008)

I was hoping Tiny would make it through the night!

I'm so glad he's improving


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## polly (Feb 2, 2008)

so sorry Peg only just seeing this. hope its all gone ok at the vets and you got to see the vet you wanted.

sending good vibes for you and Tiny :hug:


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## Marietta (Feb 2, 2008)

I just logged in and couldn't believe my eyes! Thank God Tiny's better. The first posts were scary, I didn't know what to think... Well, as it seems, Tiny has a strong will and I'm sure he's gonna be better with the proper medication. Peg, let us know how it went when you get back from the vet.

Vitto and I send our love and hugs to Tiny!

Marietta


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## tundrakatiebean (Feb 2, 2008)

I was so scared to check this thread.

I am so glad he made it through the night!


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## ra7751 (Feb 2, 2008)

Hi All,

Peg asked me to update everyone. She said she is still a "nervous wreck" and Tiny is mad. She is at a vet as I post this. I have been talking to her quite a bit by PM, regular e-mailand by phone since last night. It is looking more and more like a urinary issue. The vet manually expressed Tiny's bladder and Peg said it was thick, concentrated and smelly. Appeared there may have been pus in there too. The vet was still doing the physical as we were talking last.

I think Peg has found an excellent vet. Peg seems very comfortable with what this doctor is doing....and I could tell there was some relief inher voice during our last phone conversation. It seems that Tiny is in good hands.

Will update again after Tiny's PE is completed.

Randy


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## timetowaste (Feb 2, 2008)

well...if someone was....MANUALLY expelling MY bladder...i would not be quite happy either.

yay peg and tiny!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

thanks for the update, randy!

Tracy


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## ra7751 (Feb 2, 2008)

Just heard from Peg....they are on the way home. She said she is not a nervous wreck now....but still concerned. She will be updating everyone when she gets home.

Randy


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## Marietta (Feb 2, 2008)

Yes, thanks, indeed, Randy, for taking the time to let us know. I'm sure everybody is calmer and more relieved now that Tiny is under the proper vet care. It's great that Peg found a good vet!

Send her everybody's love when you talk to her again.

Marietta


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## JimD (Feb 2, 2008)

ray:


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## polly (Feb 2, 2008)

oh my Peg i hope you realise how many bananas, craisons and cheerios you are gonna need this time to get him out of his huff when he is feeling better!!!

so glad you found a good vet


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## Pipp (Feb 2, 2008)

*ra7751 wrote: *


> ... It seems that Tiny is in good hands.



Yes, Tiny's been in good hands... Randy's! 

What an awesome, knowledgeable, caringguy.:cry4:

Peg, Tiny and Rabbits Online are all verylucky he's beengenerous enough to share himself with us.

:hugsquish:

Here's hoping that allgoes well onTiny's road to recovery. 



sas ray:


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## LuvaBun (Feb 2, 2008)

Thank you for letting us know what's been happening, Randy.

I'm pleased Peg seems less stressed, and that Tiny is doing better. Keeping the prayers coming until he is out of the woods and recovered!

Jan


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## ra7751 (Feb 2, 2008)

Thanks for the kind words....it means a lot to me. I just hope my experiences and knowledgeare helpful toour rabbit friends and all of us rabbit slaves.

Randy


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## AngelnSnuffy (Feb 2, 2008)

*ra7751 wrote: *


> Thanks for the kind words....it means a lot to me. I just hope my experiences and knowledgeare helpful toour rabbit friends and all of us rabbit slaves.
> 
> Randy


Randy, you are awesome and the wealth of advice and knowledge you provide is priceless.:hug: Thank you for that! The forum would not be the same without you, that's a fact:nod.


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## LuvaBun (Feb 2, 2008)

They most definately are, Randy. Your help and advice on this Forum has been invaluable 

Jan


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## TinysMom (Feb 2, 2008)

We made it home about 15 minutes ago and have been getting Tiny back in the house (you'll understand why it took so long when I post a picture of his carrier later on).

First off - Tiny does have a urinary tract infection. She went to examine him and he peed - a lot. She then tried to work with his bladder to get a better sample and all that came out was sludge....LOTS of sludge. 

I thought it was pus cause it smelled so bad. REALLY bad. 

My dad always says that "hindsight is 20/20" and he's so right. Looking back now, I realize that off and on there has been a strange odor in the office. Since I've been having the windows open lately - I had assumed it was coming from outside...beacuse I'd look around and not find anything that made me see where it was coming from. I think it is because Tiny was finally using the litter box and the Woody Pet was sort of covering up things. 

Last night while I was trying to sleep on the floor with Tiny - he peed twice and it was almost like toothpaste or something coming out - caulk almost....and boy did it smell bad. I told him if he kept it up - I'd have to leave the room and give him the mattress.

Anyway - we made it into San Antonio 15 minutes before the vet closed. This was not the vet I chose and notified ahead of time - they called and left a message on my cell phone recommending this other vet - and I'm so glad that they did.

I don't agree with everything the vet did - for instance, I feel like Tiny could've used some stronger pain meds and I wish she'd given him some sub-q fluids. She felt like he had enough fluids....and yes, he was alert. I just felt like giving him fluids would help him feel more comfortable. She didn't.

I wish he had something stronger than the meds she gave him for the infection - BUT - she explained her reasoning to me and said that she prefers to follow this course of treatment with rabbits - at least to start with. (She gave him baytril). 

Tiny is awake right now and somewhat alert...but obviously not feeling comfortable. On the way home we stopped and I bought him two types of green leafy lettuce and some cilantro...he refused all of it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is - he's home - he's alive and he's doing pretty good. However, I haven't seen much for poops in over 12 hours....so I'm starting him on critical care once his pain meds kick in.

He is going to have to switch to Timothy pellets and there will be some other changes made in his diet and stuff - but for right now - I'll just go sit w/ him for a few minutes and I'll write more later...

Peg


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## AngelnSnuffy (Feb 2, 2008)

Thank goodness, Peg. I'm so glad he'll be okay, I was so worried about him last night. I kept sitting here saying "Come on Tiny, Come on". I'm so relieved. Good job Peg, you did great! 

Feel better soon, Tiny.


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## maherwoman (Feb 2, 2008)

Oh, Peg, I'm so relieved!! I half expected a call, but I'm so glad you called Randy instead, as he certainly has more advice to give! 

I'm so glad Tiny's home, and that he's getting the meds he needs...and I hope to hear of more improvement and Happy Tiny actions soon...

I'm here if you need a friend to talk to...you can call me anytime, day or night. :hug:


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## TinysMom (Feb 2, 2008)

So - what does a flemish giant ride in for a 3 hour trip to the vet?

The first photo sort of gives you an idea of the size...sorry for the bag - I put his greens in there with him 'cause we were bringing him inside...




If you look closely - you can see him in it.....see how much extra space he had???





He had hay under the towel making a nice mattress....and he had greens, bananas, baby food and more to tempt him to eat...

Peg


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## timetowaste (Feb 2, 2008)

Hi Peg!

I'm so glad to hear that Tiny is doing well now. Poor big boy...I cannot even fathom how painful it is to pee something practically solid. OUCH. 

Did you ask the vet if she would administer fluids? Usually, I would ask and if they say no, they will at least give me a reason why so I understand. Also, did you mention that you're a breeder and you have prior knowledge about rabbits and their health...more than she might have thought you do? You know..in a.. tactful way I guess...

Give Tiny a hug from me, and then give him a hug from Nemo...okay?

Best wishes to a fast recovery! (To BOTH of you!)

Tracy


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## maherwoman (Feb 2, 2008)

Aww w w w w w....Tiny looks so upset...

But I have to say, kinda cute, him lookin' small for a change in that big ol' tub...


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## Hazel (Feb 2, 2008)

I'm soooo glad to hear about Tiny!! Keep us updated! I assume he's on some kind of medicine? Or something to flush him out?


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## TinysMom (Feb 2, 2008)

Well - I should go feed the other bunnies but so much is going through my mind all at once. I don't want to go too much into detail on some things here largely because I don't want people to start "self-diagnosing" their bunnies. I think there are times when we can look at them and know what they need (like if we give them some nutrical or canned pumpkin 'cause we see they're not pooping as much) ~ but there are times when I think it was Ivory put it best..."This rabbit needs a vet and not an online forum".

In this case - Tiny needed both the forum (as did I) and a vet.

About the vet - first of all - I liked her. Almost the first words out of her mouth when she walked in and saw Tiny were...."I just love rabbits". It was obvious from the way she handled him and treated him that she is comfortable around rabbits and does care about them.

I do disagree with some of the decisions she made about how to treat him....but when we discussed things she did not just say to me, "This is the way I've always done it..." or "Well that's too bad you feel that way". Instead - she explained to me why she was making the decisions she was making - and in some ways - her answers make sense.

For instance - I wanted Tiny on something other than Metacam...something perhaps a bit stronger. He had been in SUCH pain and I knew he might have another long night or two ahead of him. She didn't want him on something stronger because he hadn't eaten in several hours and she felt that the metacam would be enough to help him relax and start eating and drinking and that would help him feel better. I disagree with her - but she did make sense. She said that when she worked with rabbits - she prefered to "start" with metacam to see if it would be enough to handle the pain. She really feels like in a couple of days Tiny will be feeling much better - we just have to get him eating and drinking.

I wanted him on something other than baytril...but once again - she wanted to consider his stomach and the fact he's only been on baytril once before. She wanted to 'start' with baytril and see if that would be enough versus using something that might be more aggressive and harder on his system.

I wanted her to do some sub-q fluids. However, she did not want to stress him out any further by doing sub-q fluids, especially since I had already stated I knew how to do them (and could do them at home). Tiny had already been examined, had his bladder expressed, had shaving done around his sore hocks and his open wound thingy (thanks to Miss Bea) and he was getting pretty darn stressed. She felt like if we took him home, got him on the meds (especially the pain meds) - he would feel better and start eating and drinking naturally - especially if he had leafy greens, etc. to choose from. She pointed out that he was alert and he did not look dehydrated at all.

I did buy some Oxbow Critical Care (the big container 'cause I was almost out - it was $35 - OUCH) and she thought that would be really great to work with for him also. It was actually my idea to buy it - she didn't push it - but I like to have it on hand.

I did tell her I was a breeder - big mistake. Note to self....get to know vet before saying something like that again. 

However, I did tell her when I brought him in that I suspected bladder sludge and/or an infection - turned out to be both.

She did seem impressed with my medical knowledge (limited as it is) and my questions. She didn't seem upset by them or thrown by them....and she was more than willing to discuss what she believes. I left there feeling respect for her (even if we disagree) and feeling like she respected me also. 

Since getting home, I've talked to Randy and done some research. Tiny has received his dose of pain meds and I'm letting him relax before I try to compound that baytril tablet and get it down him. We have a plan of action that includes what the vet has suggested but also includes other things. Right now our focus is to "stay the course"....keep Tiny comfortable - not get him upset by having me be upset, etc.

Some of you may wonder, "Well...what are you going to do?". Sorry - but I'm not going to share - not because it is anything dangerous or wrong or anything like that.

But I would hate to say something like "We're giving Tiny 10 ounces of coffee per day" (HINT: I picked something that would be really REALLY stupid to do so folks won't do it) and then try to treat their rabbit themselves instead of seeing a vet. Honestly - I am totally convinced that a bladder infection is something you need help with.

I've been wondering all day, "How could I go from thinking this was heart issues to thinking it was bladder? What changed?"

Part of it was - I automatically thought the worst at first. Tiny was breathing so hard and having such a hard time of it. After the losses I've had - it would only make sense that he was doing the same thing - following the same pattern.

But he wasn't - and as I watched him struggle to pee - I realized just how much pain he was in. Imagine if you were trying to go to the bathroom - and it was like trying to pee woodworking caulk or super hard toothpaste? You would hurt too.

I was trying to describe to Eric the pain Tiny was in - when remembered the movie, "The Green Mile" and the infection that Tom Hanks' character had in it.....I think it was the same thing.

Before I close this post though - I need to say one other thing. Y'all have NO idea how much your love, support and prayers meant to me through this. I was literally expecting Tiny to pass on from moment to moment and I would come back to this thread and reread it. Then I'd think, "What if I am missing something? What if it isn't his heart?". When Randy and I were finally able to chat - and then I observed Tiny for a couple of hours - I realized - it wasn't his heart.

But it was because of YOUR courage - of your telling him to hang in there - that I let go of what I thought was the truth - and found out the truth.

In other words - you believed when I couldn't - and your belief....helped me to make some good decisions.

So thank you everyone - someday - when he's not so grumpy - maybe Tiny will even thank y'all too!

Peg


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## TinysMom (Feb 2, 2008)

He's eating a lettuce leaf - he ate about 1/2 of one (his darling Miss Bea had the other half earlier) and now he's eating another WHOLE leaf on his own and really looks like he's enjoying it....

If it wasn't for the fact that it would scare the poops right out of him - I'd be putting on a cheerleading costume and going, "Go Tiny....Go Tiny..."

Instead, I'll cheer in my heart - and here on the forum....looks like I may need to grab another leaf in a minute too.....

Peg


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## Hazel (Feb 2, 2008)

Yay! 

And of course your advice to ALWAYS see the vet is good. I agree that you wouldn't want people to start self-medicating their buns from what they've seen on the forum. Of course we're all curious though because that's the way we are, haha . Or at least me,  I definitely understand why you're saying what you're saying, I'm just glad Tiny's going to get better. I was sooo sad when I saw this thread the first time. I'm glad Tiny will be getting better soon!


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## JimD (Feb 2, 2008)

arty0002:T arty0002:I arty0002:N arty0002:Y arty0002:


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## TinysMom (Feb 2, 2008)

Well - he's feeling good enough to groom Miss Bea and be groomed by her - but he was grooming her when I first saw them together (now she's grooming the top of his head and telling him how much she missed him and how mean I am....).









Peg


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## SOOOSKA (Feb 2, 2008)

Peg, I'm so glad you found out what his problem is and that he is getting treatment.

Tiny and Miss Bea make the cutest couple.

Susan


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 2, 2008)

peg, I've been up and down most of the day.... but I've poppped in for updates on Tiny. I'm so glad he's doing ok. I think we panic when it's our rabbit... and immediatley lose our sense of seeing what is not right.

How old is Tiny? I can't remember. Timothy pellets are best for the older ones I think...and I would be very careful of high calcium greens with him...... just because it's considered to be a factor in urine sludge.

I'm glad you got a good vet. I think that eventhough you disagree - it's best to allow a good vet to make those decisions about some medicines. We want them fixed! but she's trying to fix him without much worse things happen. antibiotics can cause all sorts of urinary issues..... and you don't want more of those!!! 

Keep us posted and kiss that big boy for me.


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## TinysMom (Feb 2, 2008)

One more update ~ he's eaten some cilantro and he is currently drinking from a water bowl (I added a hint of vanilla). I'm guessing he's had at least 2 tablespoons so far - maybe more....and he's going back again for another drink - this is the third drink (its right in front of him so it isn't like he has to move much).

I don't remember if I shared this - but he's going on bottled water from now on as we suspect that could be part of the issue.

Ok - back for a fourth drink......and this time he's really going at it.....its almost like he takes a drink - wiggles his nose while he thinks about how he's feeling - and drinks some more....

Of course - his beloved is sitting off to the side eating his cilantro and glaring at me...

Peg


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 3, 2008)

Ha! She is mad cause you took her man all day!

Glad he's drinking! so important! Bottled water sounds good too! 

I bet he'll feel better just getting some water in!


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## Haley (Feb 3, 2008)

I am thrilled beyond belief to hear that Tiny is ok! I'll be praying for your special boy. I hope you can relax tonight and get some sleep- you must be exhausted!

Oh and I think I remember someone saying that parsley was actually higher in calcium than some of the other green veggies (which I had never heard before) so Id stick with the cilantro and romaine lettuce just in case.

Get well soon Tiny!


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## BEAUKEZRA (Feb 3, 2008)

I'm so happy that Tiny is ok! I was so worried. :great::woohoo:woohoo:woohoo:woohoo:woohoo


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## SnowyShiloh (Feb 3, 2008)

Way to go, Tiny!!! What a lovely post to come home to. I'm so glad he's feeling a bit better, I really hope the Metacam kicks in and he doesn't feel too much pain! Also, hooray for eating lettuce and drinking! Are bunnies more likely to drink water if there's vanilla in it? How much do you put in?


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## maherwoman (Feb 3, 2008)

So relieved to hear of continuing BIG improvements, Peg!! YAYY!!

GO TINY!!! 

Oh, and to answer your question, Bo B Bunny, I looked back at things to be sure yesterday, in waiting to hear of news of Tiny, and it looks like he's just over three years of age. Is that right, Peg?

Hugs to all!!!

Rosie*


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## PixieStixxxx (Feb 3, 2008)

Tinnnnnyyyyy!! I'm so glad he's improving! :bunnydance:


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 3, 2008)

Awww I'm SO glad to hear that he's getting better! The beginning of this thread had me really upset yesterday, but I'm so glad that it's getting a happy ending.

I agree with what you said aswell about not wanting to post everything that you're doing- whilst there are a lot of people who will just want to know out of curiosity, I think you're right that you can't risk people trying to treat something as potentially serious asthis at home when they really need to see a vet asap!

I hope he continues to do well! 

Jen xx


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## JimD (Feb 3, 2008)

I turned in early last night and missed the last part of this.

I'm so glad to hear that Tiny's doing better.
And I'm sure glad he has you to go above and beyond!!

I'm sure he'll soon realize that what you "DID" to him will start making it easier for him to pee....that's got to make him like you again!!

*Has anyone mentioned adding cranberry juice to his water? Might help with the UTI?*

TinysMom* wrote: *


> I don't remember if I shared this - but he's going on bottled water from now on as we suspect that could be part of the issue.



*GOOD INFO!!!*

I use bottled water for all of my bunnies.
We have terrible mineral content in our tap water, but I never thought of it possibly effecting the buns!!*:shock:
*I use it because our tap water smells and tastes funny most of the time.
Brindle stopped drinking one day and I couldn't figure out why.... until I opened her water bottle and it stunk strongly of chlorine. When I replaced it with bottled water, she immediately drank hard and long.
I've been using bottled water for all of them ever since.

*Continuing to send prayers and good thoughts.ray:*

*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*





*SnowyShiloh wrote: *


> Are bunnies more likely to drink water if there's vanilla in it? How much do you put in?




Some of my bunnies like it.

I mostly use it if a bun stops drinking. 
I add a little to a water bowl...enough to just tinge the color of the water....enough that you can just barely smell it.

You can use either the real or artificial vanilla.

Some members use it for the outside bunnies in the summer to help prevent flystryke....
-(From Buck Jones) _"I add approximately one teaspoon of vanilla flavoring extract, real or artificial, to one gallon of drinking water in an effort to reduce fly strike and warbles by reducing the number of flies in and about our rabbits."_


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## LuvaBun (Feb 3, 2008)

I cannot tell you how relieved I am to hear Tiny is doing so much better. And it's good that he is drinking - hopefully it will help flush out the problems. I agree with Jim in that adding cranberry juice may help even more.

Just give that big ol' boy a huge hug from me - and have one for yourself too 

Jan


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## ra7751 (Feb 3, 2008)

Just a quick note on using cranberry juice...it's much like using pineapple juice....the processed"juice" you buy has too much stuff in it that might not do so well. There is no doubt that cranberries have been known to help urinary issues....I would prefer to use the cranberry extract. And I am not really thrilled with putting anything other than good water in drinking water. I have only seen it lead to contaminated water. But if you do, change the water often.

Another note for those of you that have buns with bladder sludge...the general thought is that excessive calcium causes this. I think the jury is still out on that. I have had numerous rabbits here with sludge...and Yoda was our poster child for that (he also hadEC). It seems that some rabbits are just prone to sludge and/or other calcifications such as stones no matter what the calcium level is.....same as some people are more prone to kidney stones (and I speak from personal experiences). While there is no doubt that rabbits metabolize calcium differently than other animals...it doesn't seem to have that much effect on the sludge in an otherwise healthy rabbit. But, like all other components of their diet, it's something to take into consideration. I have found that mineral content in drinking water is the prime contributor to sludge. I researched this when I just happened to notice the crud that built up in some of my aquariums looked like the sludge in Yoda's urine. We switched to a low mineral content water (not distilled as some minerals are necessary for good health) and he never had sludge again. Those of you on municipal water supplies have to consider the chemicals used in treatment too....chorine and ammonia to name a couple. And there can be all sorts of things in well waterfrom pesticides to fertilizers or just about anything else in an aquifer. And remember that most states/counties require chemical treatment of community wells. Something to think about. And also if you use bottled water....some of that is run directly from a city tap somewhere.....know where the water comes from.

Just a couple of thoughts.

Randy


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## JadeIcing (Feb 3, 2008)

Questionhow much did he weigh in at?:biggrin2:


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## Luvmyzoocrew (Feb 3, 2008)

I am so glad when i woke up the morning after i had been reading i got on the computer immediately, my buns where looking at me all mad cause they wanted there dang food but i had to find out if he was ok. I am ssssssoooooooo glad he is doing well, hugs to both of you.

"We switched to a low mineral content water (not distilled as some minerals are necessary for good health) and he never had sludge again. Those of you on municipal water supplies have to consider the chemicals used in treatment too....chorine and ammonia to name a couple. And there can be all sorts of things in well waterfrom pesticides to fertilizers or just about anything else in an aquifer. And remember that most states/counties require chemical treatment of community wells. Something to think about. And also if you use bottled water....some of that is run directly from a city tap somewhere.....know where the water comes from.

Just a couple of thoughts.

Randy"



Randy I have a question, i remeber not too long ago there was a specific water that was on the news where they said it was basically tap water that was filtered. My question is do you have a specific name of a brand of water that is good for rabbits? I have well water and I use that on the rabbits , well until today i will be using bottled water from now on. But i dont want to get bottled water that is basically the same as what if coming from my tap water. When we buy spring water for us we just buy the store spring water , is that ok for the buns? Do i have to look for a specific thing on the bottle?


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## TinysMom (Feb 3, 2008)

*JadeIcing wrote: *


> Questionhow much did he weigh in at?:biggrin2:


Sorry for such a late update folks - but I slept in and then was dehydrated myself when I woke up. I'm still not feeling that great.

Right now he's still refusing to eat and drink - he just got a small amount of sub-q fluids (I thought he hadn't fought Art - I wasn't in the room - turns out I was wrong). 

He's feeling really miserable right now and it shows in the way he acts. He's laying on the floor and Miss Bea is beside him almost all the time (unless she has to go poop, pee or chase a baby bunny out of the room since Robin has them exploring in the living room and Al found this room). 

I just spoke with Randy and we both feel like it is going to be a week full of ups and downs. I'm sure there will be high moments like when he'll eat something and low moments like when the pain med is wearing off and he feels lousy. I may just go ahead (starting tomorrow) and start a thread called "Tiny's daily updates" or something for the week so y'all can find out when he starts eating/drinking, etc.

As far as his weight - he was 13 pounds and 3 ounces...but his paperwork says...

13 pounds 19 ounces

[align=center]:biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2:
[/align][align=left]
It's going to be a very long week here - or perhaps 10 days or so. I'm not going to tell you he's "out of the woods" because the fact is - he does still have that infection going in his system. I'm going to be enticing him to eat with as many good things as I can (I almost never offer parsley - only to does I want to start birthing....I find my rabbits love cilantro more).

I need to deal with some other rabbits but I have a feeling that this afternoon will find me sitting or laying on the floor for a couple of hours just loving on my guy. 

I'll update again later tonight with information about if he's eaten any more, etc.

Tiny and I will both be needing (and appreciate) your thoughts, prayers, well wishes, etc. over the next several days as we go along this road to his recovery. It really hurts me to see him just laying there sleeping - but at least he isn't breathing heavy and hard as if he was in pain.

Peg
[/align]
Edited to add: He just peed (and there was actually some liquid in it and the calcium didn't look as thick) and he dropped a couple of small poops on top of the pee too....


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## timetowaste (Feb 3, 2008)

ROCK IT TINY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Tracy


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## tundrakatiebean (Feb 3, 2008)

*ra7751 wrote: *


> Just a quick note on using cranberry juice...it's much like using pineapple juice....the processed"juice" you buy has too much stuff in it that might not do so well. There is no doubt that cranberries have been known to help urinary issues....I would prefer to use the cranberry extract.




Poor Tiny! I've been having bladder problems for months so I can sympathize with the poor guy!

As for cranberry juice I have drank enough of it to drown an elephant and there is a specific brand that is unsweetened and not from concentrate that is really good, it's called Mountain Sun and you can find it in a safeway in their organic section or at some sorts of health food stores. Another good one is 'just cranberry' it comes in a glass jar and is a little more expensive for not as much good. I know wash like the mountain sun since he tackled me to drink out of my glass one day


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## maherwoman (Feb 3, 2008)

We've been giving our guys reversed osmosis bottled water. Danny specifically went out looking for bottled water that did not contain fluoride (since we think that's what caused Hobbes' cystitis, since they upped the fluoride content in the water here about a year ago). It's my best suggestion.

Also, something interesting I found, Peg...they added fluoride to your city's water in October of 06...maybe it took that long to affect him as much as it has? I know it took Hobbes about a year. I found a link about it, that I'm fwding to you in PM. It's not the first place I found it mentioned...there were a couple other articles. It's interesting to note, since this is the first time you've encountered this with Tiny, and it takes a bit of time for that kind of thing to build in the system. I know that since they upped it for us, my own bladder issues have been more frequent...and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Anyway, wanted to just add that in as a thought on things. They're still debating in your city about whether or not the fluoride should be there. It was originally not going to be added, and the right someone pushed, and now it is...but it's still being fought, from what I've read.

Hugs to you!!

Rosie*


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## undergunfire (Feb 3, 2008)

I've been following this and I am happy to hear Tiny is doing a lot better. I was extremely scared for you guys.

I do suggest in investing in a water filter pitcher. I use one for the bunnies and the rat's water. It saves money in the long run. Bottled water can be expensive (especially if you have to give it to a bunch of bunnies), when you can just buy a water filter pitcher that does the same job. Not to mention, you won't have a ton of bottles to recycle!

You could also use a bunch of empty milk jugs or something of the sort and filter a ton of water and pour it into those. You would then have enough filtered water to give to all the other bunnies.

You can really taste the difference from tap and the filter pitcher.


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 3, 2008)

I've heard the pur filtered pitchers are great but I wonder if they would filter enough?

We're on a well, and I probably should go to something bottled or filtered myself.

*sigh*


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## undergunfire (Feb 3, 2008)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> I've heard the pur filtered pitchers are great but I wonder if they would filter enough?



I wonder that too, but the taste difference is amazing. It has to filter enough and I think it's worth having one. Spending all that money on cheaper brands of bottled water thats probably filtered the same way seems too expensive.

I've been using filtered water from the same pitcher for over a year now and I haven't ever had issues with any of my babies . If I did, it would certainly shown already with the rats because they age quickly because of their short lifespans.


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## maherwoman (Feb 3, 2008)

Filter pitchers and regular filters do not filter out the fluoride, all the chlorine, nor a few other things.

The best way to get fluoride out of the water is by doing a reverse osmosis filtration. Now, reverse osmosis filtration systems run about $600 on the cheap end of things (LA prices, so might be cheaper elsewhere), but you can find bottled water that's been reverse osmosis filtered.

That's what we buy. It's a bit more money (about $.69/gallon bottle here, generic Kroger brand), but it's worth it to save their health and save in vet bills.

Edited to add: We haven't had a problem with _all_ of our animals...but it did affect one out of ten, and that's enough to show me that it's a problem. All it takes is one.


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 3, 2008)

I have well-water so I'm not worried so much about the flouride and chlorine. We have flouride but in a natural lower amount.


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## Bramblerose (Feb 3, 2008)

Sorry to show up so late, glad thats he's doing so much better, sounds like he's going to be fine. Sending positive, healing thoughts your way.


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## TinysMom (Feb 3, 2008)

I'm really hesitant to post because I don't want to come across as a drama queen....I really don't.

But this is breaking my heart to see the way he just sorta lays there. I can tell he doesn't feel good - he won't eat or drink. He will let me pet him and he doesn't even fight Art over the sub-q fluids. 

I'm doing a great job at staying calm around him - but I want to go outside and scream and cry and yell and then put my fist through a wall. It is just so hard to see a bunny "suffer" even if it isn't so much that he's not suffering - just...he's not really there right now. 

He's not in a coma but its like he's just really REALLY tired and resting and just doesn't want to wake up and interact with me or anyone else. He is refusing everything and my options are to force him to take something (and thus stress him out)...or to continue what I'm doing - which is to steady the ship and wait this out. 

Miss Bea spends most of her time laying beside him and sometimes she grooms him. When I lay down beside him - he will let me pet him on the top of the head and rub his cheeks and stuff like he loves. But he just doesn't have the energy to interact with me.

I mentioned that he peed and pooped earlier and we suspect that his body's system is kicking in to work on the infection....but it will take longer for us to see effects from the baytril. 

Randy has been a great source of comfort when I talk to him on the phone. I'll be almost in tears when I call - and then almost laughing when I get off. He really does help me see the positive - which is hard to do when you see a bunny just laying there feeling miserable.

I guess I'm putting this out there to say....keep praying for us - and for me in particular. 

As I'm typing this - Art is doing another sub-q injection. He's laying still...just laying there. You have to understand - Tiny NEVER EVER just lays there for medications. In fact, Art is done - that's how quick it went. Miss Bea laid beside him the whole time...

Oh well - I guess I better close this. Its just so hard....this waiting. I know he has a really REALLY good chance of making it through this - and he isn't acting like he's in pain - just like he's very tired.

Thanks to all of you who are waiting with me. Also - thanks for the questions the other night - for discussing all the options. If I seemed short with some of you (CorkysMom comes to mind) - I do apologize....I was simply trying to answer questions quickly so that I could get back to him and maybe y'all would come up with other things.

One nice thing about this forum - is knowing that I'm not waiting alone.

Peg


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## CorkysMom (Feb 3, 2008)

Understandable on the short answers, but thank you for saying that. 

Trust me, if there is ONE thing I do understand, its a rabbit dealing w/ a life threatening infection! 

The ups and downs you are seeing are to be expected, I saw those for a good solid 2-3 weeks (obviously a different situation, but infection none the less) It is hard to see them like that, but just lovehim and do the best you can for him...a lil extra fussing doesn't hurt either, its all anyone can do. 

Hang in there and let the meds do their job....its frustrating, but it does take time. 


Oh, and we put a whole house filter on as the water here sucks...wasn't having any issues, but I wanted it done anyway...funny how it was to much work when I asked about it...but when it was an idea for the bunnies, it was OH, I'll go get the stuff now. :grumpy: Anyway..just a thought to help keep the expense down in the long run....


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 3, 2008)

Man! I keep willing Tiny to feel better! I know you must be a mess! 

I always worry that someone who has a sick bunny will feel like we are treating them stupid asking about all the things we do...... but in these cases - sometimes just the brainstorming can make a world of difference.

Whatever the cause - I hope Tiny comes around from this very quickly!


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## TinysMom (Feb 3, 2008)

*CorkysMom wrote: *


> Trust me, if there is ONE thing I do understand, its a rabbit dealing w/ a life threatening infection!


You know what - Corky came to my mind after this happened - I know his infection wa totally different - but I had just reread his story the other day and was like, "I don't know how I could handle something like that..." and now Tiny is like this.

Knowing that Corky made it through (and he had it pretty rough too) is really encouraging me that Tiny can make it through.

I just laid beside him and snuggled for a bit - then decided to get something to eat. As I got up - he turned his head to look at me and he watched me - I told him I'd be right back.

I hope I don't have to start sleeping in here every night this week but I may go ahead and pull in the dog bed again tonight and see if he'll settle on it with me. I know Art won't be thrilled - but he understands. 

Peg

P.S. He just got his pain meds and I got about .5 cc of organic cranberry juice down him. He was NOT happy at all....and when I went to give him a bit more - he turned away and I decided I wanted him to see me as a friend and not the enemy - so I put it aside. I think I'll try a bit every couple of hours - along with other stuff.


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## undergunfire (Feb 3, 2008)

I have little experience with rabbit health issues *knock on wood*, but if rats on Baytril are the same as rabbits on Baytril....then you should see the effects of it in 2-3 days.

As for the filter pitcher, I was simply trying to help Peg out by offering that option to her because I know it would be impossible for her to buy bottled water for all her bunnies because it is expensive. Most of the flouride/chlorine is filtered out, and that is better than it being in the water 100%. I would like to add, though, that when I filter my water...I can't smell the chlorine nor can I taste anything....it tastes like fresh bottled water.



Edit to add: I may have missed it, but how much Baytril did the vet prescribe? I am pretty sure that animals should be on Baytril for 10-30 days, and by day 10 if things are not clearing up, then they need to be on a Baytril/combo medication.


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## TinysMom (Feb 3, 2008)

First of all - we appreciate any and all suggestions folks....so thanks to everyone!

Secondly - it looks like I'm spending the night in here - and I need to go feed rabbits so that is going to be tough.

You see - I just went out to get some food - and I got back and Tiny had dragged himself about 6" closer to the door and was trying to get even closer still. Earlier today - when I was in the living room talking - we came out to find he'd made it by the front door and was laying in front of it.

I suspect he REALLY wants me with him.

Whenever I walk back in the room - I can almost see him relax now...like he knows I'm here.

Peg


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 3, 2008)

Amy, your info about the pitcher is valuable and kicking around all the ideas, aspects and considerations are great! it's how we can help each other make decisions!


My well water is going to be different from others...... and city waters vary from one area to another.

If you are unsure of the water content, I think it should be tested or use the best filtered water you can get.

I have friends who have the reverse osmosis thing IN their house so telling them to buy bottled water wouldn't be right..... 

So always throw stuff out there!


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## CorkysMom (Feb 3, 2008)

What I've been told on the antibiotics, baytril in particular when Corky had it for so long, was double the time it takes for them to get better, so if he seems better in a week, stay on it for another week. 

What I did was put Corky in a small cage so he couldn't possibly hurt himself if he got up and tried to move around, one side had a heating pad w/ a towel over it, the other side nothing so he could get off it if he got to warm. 

Dunno that you'd have anything large enuff to do that w/ Tiny....did it help me 'sleep' any better...not really as I heard EVERY move he made, but at least I was in my bed and not on a hard floor...all he needed on top of everything else woulda been me unable to move from my back hurting! 

Anyway..just a thought to maybe make you a lil more comfortable thru this...its hard enuff w/o the sleep and being exhausted....no need to hurt on top of it if you don't have to!


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## tundrakatiebean (Feb 3, 2008)

:hug2:Hugs for Peg

:bunnyhug:And bunny hugs for Tiny

I keep stopping whatever I'm doing and saying "gosh, I hope Tiny's still ok." You have so many positive thoughts floating your way it's got to do SOMETHING


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## ra7751 (Feb 3, 2008)

I remember the news story about some bottled water coming directly from a city tap but I don't remember the brand. And don't think you are immune to water problems if you are on well water....you just have different issues especially if you live in a farming region. There was so much stuff inmy water that salt water aquariums grew very large crops of algae if they had any sunlight at all. I had to really test and treat the water to keep any fish alive. And I am not so sure about the faucet filters. We used them all the time and Yoda still had bladder sludge. After we went to bottled water, he never had issues again.

Randy


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## TinysMom (Feb 3, 2008)

Not good...he's gasping for breath with his mouth open and crying quietly...


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## tundrakatiebean (Feb 3, 2008)

ray:is it near the time to take another pain pill?


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 3, 2008)

Aww Peg, I'm really praying and hoping for you both... I really am. xx


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## AngelnSnuffy (Feb 3, 2008)

NOOOOOO


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## TinysMom (Feb 3, 2008)

He's gone. I'm sorry - I can't write more right now.

Peg


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## tundrakatiebean (Feb 3, 2008)

:bigtears:I am bawling right now... I am so sorry Peg


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## Bramblerose (Feb 3, 2008)

I am so sorry


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 3, 2008)

I'm so, so very sorry to see this- I don't know what else to say, except my heart goes out to you...xxx


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## undergunfire (Feb 3, 2008)

Oh my god. I am in absolute shock. I can't evenh sere to type. I am so rsoprry, Peg. Tiny and I had a few bonding moments while I was there.

UI just can't beleive this.


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## NZminilops (Feb 3, 2008)

Tiny is such a part of you Peg, I just don't know what to say.  I'm so sorry.


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## Leaf (Feb 3, 2008)

Oh no, this just makes me want to cry. I can't even think of what to say at this point. I'm so, so very sorry!


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##  (Feb 3, 2008)

All I can say is that I'm so sorry...from the bottom of my heart, I'm sorry...

<3 Alexah


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## Leaf (Feb 3, 2008)

*ra7751 wrote: *


> I remember the news story about some bottled water coming directly from a city tap but I don't remember the brand...


This, or last months issue of Readers Digest had a huge write up about that. I couldn't tell you which one as my dogs recently went on a magazine eating spree.


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## lagadvocate (Feb 3, 2008)

I am so truly sorry...:hearts:


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 3, 2008)

*Aquafina wasn't it?*

*ra7751 wrote: *


> I remember the news story about some bottled water coming directly from a city tap but I don't remember the brand. And don't think you are immune to water problems if you are on well water....you just have different issues especially if you live in a farming region. There was so much stuff inmy water that salt water aquariums grew very large crops of algae if they had any sunlight at all. I had to really test and treat the water to keep any fish alive. And I am not so sure about the faucet filters. We used them all the time and Yoda still had bladder sludge. After we went to bottled water, he never had issues again.
> 
> Randy


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 3, 2008)

*OMG no!!! *

*What on Earth ....... oh gosh *

*TinysMom wrote: *


> He's gone. I'm sorry - I can't write more right now.
> 
> Peg


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## TinysMom (Feb 3, 2008)

*undergunfire wrote: *


> Oh my god. I am in absolute shock. I can't evenh sere to type. I am so rsoprry, Peg. Tiny and I had a few bonding moments while I was there.
> 
> UI just can't beleive this.



Like the time he came charging into your room because you were feeding your bunnies bananas and he wanted some?

I need to share this quickly and then I don't know what else to say.

I went out to feed the rabbits and was coming back in here to spend the night w/ Tiny. I heard a noise - it turned out to be the birds on the forest sounds stuff I had playing - but something inside me said to come in and check on Tiny anyway.

He was laying on his side breathing hard. He did a few open-mouth breathing gasps for maybe 2 minutes or so. He also did some little cries.

Then.....he was gone.

I will start a rainbow bridge thread for him....later. Maybe later tonight...maybe tomorrow. I don't know - and I can't say for sure when it will be. I do ask that no one else start it but allow me to do so. 

At this point - I don't know how I can go on....my heart is breaking. How can I be "Tiny's Mom" without my Tiny....know what I mean?

Peg


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 3, 2008)

You will always be Tiny's Mom. He's gone but he'll always be a part of you. He'll also be a reminder to cherish all the time you have with those you love.

RIP Tiny. I'm so sorry he lost his fight, peg.


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## irishmist (Feb 3, 2008)

You will always be Tiny's Mom... as he has stolen a huge hunk of your heart and there he will remain always



Susan


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## cmh9023 (Feb 3, 2008)

I'm so, so sorry for your loss. Tiny made such a big impact on so many people that never even actually met him. Take care of yourself during this very difficult time.


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## undergunfire (Feb 3, 2008)

*TinysMom wrote: *


> *undergunfire wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Oh my god. I am in absolute shock. I can't evenh sere to type. I am so rsoprry, Peg. Tiny and I had a few bonding moments while I was there.
> ...



Everytime I would throw away a banana peel, I would say to myself, "Oh, crap, Tiny would have loved to have that."


......and from now on I will never throw away another banana peel.


I am in tears. I wish I could be there one more time to give Tiny a banana peel.


I need to go talk to Morgan right now.


:cry4:


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## TinysMom (Feb 3, 2008)

Miss Bea is sitting beside him and looking at me as if to say, "Fix him mama...".

How do I help her? Do I leave him on the floor with her until she's ready to say goodbye? How will I know when she's said "goodbye"?

HELP?

Peg


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## undergunfire (Feb 3, 2008)

Give her as much time as she needs...and also give yourself as much time as YOU need.

:hug:


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## CorkysMom (Feb 3, 2008)

Never been thru that, but I'm guessing you will know, she will move onto something else. As hard as it is tho, its a good thing she's getting to say good bye. 

I'm so sorry it turned out like this, I was hoping he'd beat the odds.


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## jil101ca (Feb 3, 2008)

Peg, my condolences on the lost of Tiny. My heart is breaking with you and you are in my thoughts this sad day. For Tinyink iris: Joyce


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 3, 2008)

Yes, she needs the time to realize that he's gone. Talk to her and let her know you tried and he tried.

I'm so sorry...... my heart is just breaking for you, peg.


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## TinysMom (Feb 3, 2008)

I called Randy within probably a minute of his passing and his first words were "NO" and then several times "I'm in shock".

Earlier today we had talked about how we both expected Tiny to pull out of this - that it might be hard...but we both felt like he had a good chance.

I think I just drove Miss Diva bunny away by going and sitting beside him - so I'm going to leave him alone for a bit so she can say her goodbyes. I did get a picture of her beside him staring at him.....

Peg


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## pla725 (Feb 3, 2008)

Oh no. I can't believe this. I'm so sorry. I just have no words. Total shock.


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## Jenson (Feb 3, 2008)

Oh my God Peg, I am so sorry. I can't believe it, Tiny was so special here.


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## undergunfire (Feb 3, 2008)

That picture will be sad, but very special to you in the future, Peg.


Alicia hasn't been on, but I called her and left her a message to let her know. We have been talking about Tiny and she was the one who called me to let me know Tiny was sick...and I burst into tears.

I'm working on a special picture for you now, Peg.


Please hang in there for us. I wish I could be there to greet you with a bowl of bubble gum ice cream and a big huge hug.


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## AngelnSnuffy (Feb 3, 2008)

Peg, I just want to say how very sorry I am. It is very much a shock.

Probably isn't the best time, but I am feeling that this sounds alot like congestive heart failure to me. I've been through it with my first bun, who was a bigger bun as well at about 8 lbs and the labored breathing is a symptom of that (which I know other ailments are too). Did the vet happen to do an xray of his heart?

Again, I'm so sorry. Just know you did everything you could:hug:.

Tiny-binky free with your buddies:rainbow:


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## angoragrl (Feb 3, 2008)

I just caught up on this thread. I'm so sorry for your loss.


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## naturestee (Feb 3, 2008)

What??? This is so not right. I can't believe he's gone. I'm so sorry Peg.

I feel really bad for Miss Bea. Maybe before you take Tiny away, you can rub him with a towel or stuffed toy and give that to her? So she has something that smells like him to snuggle with.

:sad:


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## TinysMom (Feb 3, 2008)

If this is in poor taste - I apologize. I will not share the video of her grooming him - at least not right now - it is still too close to my heart.

These two had a true love.....





























My dear breeder friend Lisa just posted this on the lionhead USA list...


*This evening Peg Flint's Flemish Giant, Tiny, passed away. Anyone who knows Peg, knows how much she loved him. Please keep Peg in your thoughts and prayers as she works through her grief. The days that follow will be very difficult for her.* *Some bunnies touch our lives in such a way that they become so much more than pets. Tiny was such a bunny. He had so much character and personality. I, for one, always looked forward to the next chapter of the Tiny & Miss Bea saga. The remaining chapters will be written on the other side, but for now, thanks to Peg, wehold the memories of a life, a friend, an amazing bunny.

I don't want the chapters to be written on the "other side".....I want them HERE!!!!

Anyway - here are photos of Miss Bea saying her goodbyes...

Peg
*


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## pamnock (Feb 3, 2008)

I'm so very sorry Peg . . .


Pam


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## Leaf (Feb 3, 2008)

Oh Peg, this is heartbreaking, and I don't find the pictures in bad taste atall. There's no need to apologize. If you want to share your video I'd be honored to watch it whenever you'd be ready. They were sucha perfect team.


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## undergunfire (Feb 3, 2008)

Those pictures are so special and touching, Peg.

I am so very sorry.


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## timetowaste (Feb 3, 2008)

peg...i don't even have words right now. i can't believe this is seriously happening. i'm so sorry for your loss. my chest hurts for you...my heart just broke. tiny was such an asset to this forum...

if there is anything i can do for you...i can't even imagine what or begin to fathom...

i wish the best to you and yours, i truly truly do.

with much love and sorrow,

Tracy 

Tiny: :rainbow:You were so loved in life, and will continue to be so loved without missing a beat. You are missed. Binky free, big boy.


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## f_j (Feb 3, 2008)

I really don't know what to say...other than I am so very sorry. Rest in peace Tiny :rainbow:


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## chinmom (Feb 3, 2008)

I just wanted to let you know that you and Tiny will be in my thoughts; I know how hard it is to lose a furry, especially one that was really close to your heart. 

Tiny, binky free, beautiful!


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## Haley (Feb 3, 2008)

Oh Peg, Im just in shock right now. I cant believe this is happening. This is just not fair.

Tiny was so special to all of us. I always loved hearing about his antics and his love affair with Miss Bea. Im going to miss him so much. 

I know you must be in so much pain right now.

We're here for you.

Haley


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## monklover (Feb 3, 2008)

I'm so sorry Peg. Tiny was so special to everyone on this forum. 
:sad:


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## JadeIcing (Feb 3, 2008)

Oh god. I just got home from work. Thinking he is fine. I had left my phone. I can't believe this. His loss is so hard for me, for all of us. I would say so much more but I am crying and still have to water the buns.


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## myLoki (Feb 3, 2008)

There are no words. My deepest condolensces to you, Peg. 


t.


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## BEAUKEZRA (Feb 3, 2008)

I can't believe this. Words can't express how sorry I am. I'm crying for you, for Tiny and for Miss Bea. I don't know what to say....I'm just so sorry.


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## TinysMom (Feb 4, 2008)

I "need" to share this for some reason - maybe it is so others will understand part of the depth of my grief.

Miss Bea never really "liked" me. That is....till she bonded with Tiny this last time (they always loved to nap together but then would split up for various reasons). A couple of weeks ago - she started coming to me if I said her name (I usually had treats for her). 

I put down her food just a bit ago - in the bowl she and Tiny used. She went and looked at her food - and then went and nudged Tiny. She then went back to her food and stared at it for about 10 minutes before eating a little bit (not gobbling it like normal). Then she somehow grabbed several pieces in her mouth - went over and dropped them by Tiny's head and sat there and ate beside him. Now she is sitting less than 3 inches from his nose grooming herself and then stopping to look at him.

Now she is grooming his chin...and he's been gone over 2 hours now.

My baby girl....how am I gonna help her?

Peg


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## BEAUKEZRA (Feb 4, 2008)

I think when she is done saying goodbye she will just move away from him and do something else. I don't really know. Perhaps she doesn't want to let him go yet. I'm so sorry Peg. Give her a little more time I think.


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## HoneyPot (Feb 4, 2008)

Hi Peg. I just came on for a short bit and read through the entire thread. My heart is broken for you and your family. My thoughts are with you, I can't imagine your heartache.

Take care.

Nadia


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## lalena2148 (Feb 4, 2008)

_Oh my god_...Peg, I am sitting heresobbing like a baby. :bigtears:How can this happen...it's Tiny. :cry4:I was totally happy and thought he was going to pull through. I'm just in shock. :cry1:

I'm so sorry Peg. Tiny and you (and Miss Bea) will be in my prayers. :nerves1ray:Our hearts go out to you and your family. This is just so heartbreaking...


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## TinysMom (Feb 4, 2008)

I have started his rainbow bridge thread....and I've decided to honor Tiny by telling his story on it. It may be several chapters long - chapter one is about how he became the BunFather....

Miss Bea still does not want to leave his body - she will leave it and then come back and try to nuzzle him - and leave him - and come back. Its been almost 3 hours now....

That's ok - I don't know if I can really believe he's gone either.

Here's the link to his thread...

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=32698&forum_id=27

Peg


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## maherwoman (Feb 4, 2008)

Oh God, Peg...we just got home a bit ago, and I was letting Danny play a game on the computer instead of checking up to see how Tiny was.

I'm so so sorry we weren't here for your call...we were at a Superbowl party...and I feel so awful that I wasn't here for you when you needed me most.

I'm sure you know how this has affected me, and how horribly awful I'm feeling for you right now...this was such a shock to see...I'm so sorry you lost your sweet boy...I really don't know what to say.

How can there be a Teeny without a Tiny? Tiny's the whole reason I got this sweet baby boy...and I feel like there's a hole in the universe now without Teeny's "big brother". How can this be right? It isn't fair, Peg...

I'm here and home now if you want to talk...but I completely understand if you can't handle it. I'm going to go put Em to bed for about fifteen minutes, then I should be out. Please drop me a line and let me know if you need me to call you when I get out...or just call, ok?

Gosh...I'm so so sorry...I feel like such a rotten friend...to be gone, and then to not check the moment I got home. I really didn't expect this...

Let me know any way AT ALL that I can help, ok?

Always here for you,

Rosie*


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## TinysMom (Feb 4, 2008)

Art just removed Tiny from the room and Miss Bea watched. She was pretty upset - but I think she was also willing to let him go. I think she understands now. 

The thing that concerns me is that she's going from pen to pen trying to fight with the bunnies through the bars....she is starting to settle down now so I'm going to keep an eye on her for a few minutes before I go to bed. She is eating a bit too.

Peg

P.S. Rosie - it isn't like you're supposed to live by the computer for updates about Tiy - know what I mean? It's ok....really. I don't know if I can talk or if I've lost my voice from crying so much......


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## maherwoman (Feb 4, 2008)

Oh, Peg...I know...but at the same time, I feel like I abandoned my best friend in her time of need...I care about you so much, and I hate that I wasn't here.

I really really didn't expect this...I'm still so much in shock...as I'm sure you are, too...

What can I do? Please tell me there's something I can do...

I feel so helpless...I wish flights weren't so dang expensive...I would've flown in a heartbeat, had I had the $700, Peg. 

This is so unfair...and feels so wrong...it doesn't seem like something that should have happened...it really doesn't.

Is there anything at all I can do???


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## AngelnSnuffy (Feb 4, 2008)

I know Rosie, I feel so bad as well, I'm just dwelling on it cuz it's so not fair and that hurts way more.

Feel free to pm me, Peg, anytime in the future if you have any questions. I'll be glad to help you out.

Thinking of you and your family. Prayers for you guys and that Tiny is a binkying bun right now.


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## SnowyShiloh (Feb 4, 2008)

Oh nooo! Peg, I'm so sorry... Dear Tiny... I thought he was going to pull through  Poor Miss Bea, she sounds heart broken. How sweet that she tried to bring him food. I'm very sorry for the loss of sweet Tiny.


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## Hazel (Feb 4, 2008)

I'm so unbelievably sorry for you Peg. It's funny how you can cry for someone you've never met before because you know how much their heart is breaking. Tiny was one of the first bunnies that I read about on the forum and I thought he seemed like such a great rabbit. He made me want to adopt males when I adopt next. He was beautiful. All I can say is I'm so sorry for your loss.


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## lemonaxis (Feb 4, 2008)

I will pray for you and your family, love to you Peg.....


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## 12354somebunny (Feb 4, 2008)

oh peg... i'm so very very sorry this is all very sudden, i'm in shock and lost for words..

hang in there, and do take care of yourself ok? we're all here for you *hugs*


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## RAL Rabbitry (Feb 4, 2008)

I just read about this and I am very sorry about Tiny.

Take care of yourself

Roger


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## LuvaBun (Feb 4, 2008)

OMG Peg! I just can't believe this. Not Tiny. Not our Bunfather. You know how much he meant to me (to all of us). 

I can't write any more now - my heart is breaking. 

I am so, so sorry.

Jan


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## Marietta (Feb 4, 2008)

Oh, no! I can't believe this! It's so unfair! I really really thought he was going to recover. I don't know what to say, it's so horrible, I was crying and not believing my eyes when I read about it...Peg, we all share your pain. Tiny is never going to be forgotten here and you'll always be Tiny's mom... I'm so deeply sorry for Tiny and you...Words cannot express how everybody feels right now...  Marietta


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## BlueGiants (Feb 4, 2008)

Oh Peg, I got in so late last night and gotyour PMright away. I am so very sorry for you and Miss Bea. :cry2

Tiny was a very special guy. I justread throughthe whole thread. You are the most wonderful bunny mom and you did everything possible for him. He knew how much he was loved and appreciated. 

How is Miss Bea this morning?


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## Starlight Rabbitry (Feb 4, 2008)

I am so sorry, Peg. Rest in peace, Tiny.

Sharon


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## TinysMom (Feb 4, 2008)

*BlueGiants wrote: *


> How is Miss Bea this morning?


The truth? Not good - not good at all. She even let me touch her - for a brief second. She's rejecting the stuffed animal that smells like him. She is drinking though and I did see her eat a bit. I'm about to tempt her with some fruit to eat a bit more (but not too much fruit).

The vet clinic just called to check on Tiny. They're in SHOCK that he passed away....and while it was the receptionist or vet tech who called (and they asked several questions) Art said that you could hear the shock in their voice and they said they would pass on the information to the vet because she really did want to know about him.

I got 3 1/2 hours sleep....good thing today is my day off from work.

Peg


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## Flashy (Feb 4, 2008)

Sunshine and Sweep were 8 and a half when Sunshine died back in October and they had been together their whole lives bar the odd night after Sunshine's operations. Sweep was pitiful, so very sad when Sunshine died.

We had two views in this house, keep everything the same so he feel safe, or try to liven up his world, make some changes to give him something else to focs on. We met halfway in the middle with that, he lives where he did with Sunshine, but he gets playtime around the others, and gets toys and smells from them, and we have also changed his diet to more interesting things. I'm only saying this because something in there might benefit Miss Bea somehow, or give you some ideas for maybe anything you can do for her.

It took him a while, but he soon perked up and looks happier than ever now. Give Miss Bea some time, she will be grieving, sure, but she will also deal with it quicker than us humans can.

She might also be picking up on your feelings as well which might make her feel sad for you too (well, as much as bunnies can feel empathy like that).

Give her time and love and maybe you both together can move forwards a bit.

x


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## gentle giants (Feb 4, 2008)

I'm so sorry, I don't even know what to say right now. I'll be praying for you, and for Miss Bea. 

:bigtears::rainbow::bunnyangel:


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## PixieStixxxx (Feb 5, 2008)

Those pictures reminded me of what Labrador had realized after Muffy's passing two weeks ago.

He kept grooming her, and nudging her. He picked up his favorite toy and put in under her chin. I kept her body in the cage overnight, and he slept next to her. The next morning, when I had to remove her - he ran over and nudge her a few more times, then put him head down, forcing his realization =[

Peg, I am deeply sorry for your loss. He was so loved on this forum and I'm glad he was lucky to have your love most importantly. You will always be "Tinysmom" - although he isn't here physically, Tiny will be in your heart as you will be in his.

RIP Tiny :rip:


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## SweetPeasMommie (Feb 5, 2008)

Oh Peg, I am so sorry about Tiny. Tiny has inspired us in loving Flemish giants. I just can not believe it, you really had a rough start with so many. Especially Tiny. 

Please accept my condolence.

Binkie Free Tiny


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