# Sell or not to Sell?



## hopntailrabbitry (Sep 20, 2007)

Well at this point of course all of you know that I breed rabbits blah blah blah yeah I'll get right straight to the point lol.... Anyways I'm having problems deciding if I should sell my one buck Toby. I basicly used him a lot in my breeding program and he is the father of half of my rabbits. *I think* Probably. Yea he is. Well anyways do you think I should keep him or sell him? Here is a picture of him... what do you think of him? Should I keep him and atleast try to show him and p.s. I NEVER shown him the breeder before me did and she didn't say anything to me about him.











Thanks

Please give me opinions and Thank You.  P.S. I know he isn't "posed" properly I was doing a rush job trying to get all the rabbits pictures taken. Uhh such a pain! lol


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## ~BunBuns~ (Sep 20, 2007)

KEEP HIM
:biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2::biggrin2:

what a cutie!


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## hopntailrabbitry (Sep 20, 2007)

Right now it is like 50/50 keep or sell. lol Wow is it very hard for me to decide to sell. And he was my first breeding buck too that I bought. lol Hmmm......... 

:biggrin2:


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## bat42072 (Sep 20, 2007)

I agree with keeping him... he so cute


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## polly (Sep 20, 2007)

I am not sure on the holland lop standards but if you don't try showing him you won't know. However i would get another buck in so your line doesn't get to in bred just check the line of the new one first its always good to add some fresh genetics


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## hopntailrabbitry (Sep 20, 2007)

Ohh trust me I have plenty of bucks. lol


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## CorkysMom (Sep 20, 2007)

Sadly, bucks are where you have to be the hardest on when its time to make these decisions. Think of this as well, is he throwing better than himself?

First off, what color is he, his coloring is gorgeous, I can't tell due to the lighting for sure what color he is. He also looks like he has pretty nice bone. 

What jumps out at me that would hurt him on the show table, is his nose looks longer, not the short, round"flat" look judges look for, if that makes sense. His ears are a lil long (not a ton of points there), but look like they have good substance,and he looks a bit long in body. His crown is slipped, sadly, that seems to be a VERY common thing in the hollands these days!

I'd love to see some pictures of him with a better pose. (its always so hard to know for sure in pictures!) As someone else stated, why not take him to a show and get opinions! Even if judges say he's not great for showing, then he has his beauty in other ways I'm sure...My Corky would be off the table so fast his lil brown head would spin, but he has his beauty in all the other ways....day to day life...not on the show table! 

Anyway, just my 2cents worth, take what you want and keep the change


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## grumpybabies (Sep 21, 2007)

Don't keep him or sell him, post him to me lol. Nah seriously if he is such a good breeder i think it is better to keep him just in case other bucks don't work out so well.


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## clarzoo (Sep 21, 2007)

He's so cute!

It all depends on what your goals are. Do you have a list of goals for your rabbitry? If you don't, take the time to think about it and write them down. If you write them down and post them by your computer or in your barn- they will be in front of you and when it is time to make the harder decisions about who stays or goes, you will have a reminder about what you want.

If your goal is to win on the show table some of the most successful breeders out there have a very high turnover rate with their rabbits. They will have a litter, keep the best- show, keep the winners, breed and when a baby grows up that looks better than mom or dad, they will sell the parent and keep the offspring. With some breeders this turnover happens so fast that they rarely keep any one rabbit for over a year. Others might take two years or more to do this. 

I love bucks, and I always tend to get attached and sentimental about my bucks. But I keep my rabbit numbers so small that if I truly want to improve my herd, when a son starts to outperform his father- I really should find a new home for the father. (Tell that to my 11 year old buck Styme, though, lol! He's still here!)

What I would do is take your buck and a couple of his most promising sons to a show. Enter them and see what the judge says. But, after the show, I'd bring the rabbits up to a judge that isn't busy and ask if they'd be willing to help you decide which to keep. When I start getting attached I find that if I get an outside opinion- they can help me see faults I am turning a blind eye to.


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## hopntailrabbitry (Sep 21, 2007)

Also the good part is I bred Toby to Ginger and the one that gotten BOB in the show in August- Goliath. Toby is the father of Goliath so I have no idea what to do still. lol Jeez it is soo hard to decide.


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## Luvmyzoocrew (Sep 21, 2007)

oh how cute i want to tell you to keep him, he looks like my Sooty.


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## hopntailrabbitry (Sep 21, 2007)

Awww


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## Wabbitdad12 (Sep 25, 2007)

He's cute and would make a great pet. You probably should get thim neutered though, keep from having genetic problems. I am not trying to be rude, if your breeding Holland Lops, shouldn't you know the ARBA standard and know whether he's show quality?


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## Pipp (Sep 26, 2007)

*PuterGeekGirl wrote: *


> First off, what color is he, his coloring is gorgeous, I can't tell due to the lighting for sure what color he is. He also looks like he has pretty nice bone.
> 
> What jumps out at me that would hurt him on the show table, is his nose looks longer, not the short, round"flat" look judges look for, if that makes sense. His ears are a lil long (not a ton of points there), but look like they have good substance,and he looks a bit long in body. His crown is slipped, sadly, that seems to be a VERY common thing in the hollands these days!
> 
> I'd love to see some pictures of him with a better pose. (its always so hard to know for sure in pictures!) As someone else stated, why not take him to a show and get opinions!...


PGG, meant to mention this a few days back, but this was a very pithy, informative post. 

sas :bunnydance:


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## CorkysMom (Sep 26, 2007)

Not sure if 'pithy' is good or bad...LOL :shock2:

wabbitdad12-knowing the SOP for your breed or not, questions still arise, Hollands in particular are a complex breed to know the ins and outs of! I know it often still gets me after lots of studying, asking questions etc...some of the top breeders I know still ask others for opinions quite often! Good way to learn more and get others perspectives in the process! Also, everyone percieves the SOP different from the other person...sometimes the same rabbit that is BOB today can be first off the table tomorrow...different judge, different perception etc! The more opinions the better! :woohoo


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## clarzoo (Sep 26, 2007)

Pithy can be very good! It means short, helpful and to the point.


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## hopntailrabbitry (Sep 26, 2007)

lol Like I said I've never shown Toby and not planning on it. haha But I know Toby MIGHT I'm so might have a few faults. However I'm trying to get good Hollands though. And I bought Toby from a breeder who never gotten him from a litter. Toby has had 3 homes so far so I'm his 3 home. lol Poor lil guy. But yeah I really don't know hiw background that much at all.


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## Wabbitdad12 (Sep 27, 2007)

We took on a rabbit from some friends that got him from someone else. Our home would be his third in about as many months. Despite, being a little agressive at first. The vet took care of that, we couldn't pass him on. Poor guy hadn't had a family or a permanet home so we kept him. The point I am trying to make in a round about way is if you have room and it sounds like you do. Keep him and spoil him rotten.


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## Wabbitdad12 (Sep 27, 2007)

*PuterGeekGirl wrote: *


> Not sure if 'pithy' is good or bad...LOL :shock2:
> 
> wabbitdad12-knowing the SOP for your breed or not, questions still arise, Hollands in particular are a complex breed to know the ins and outs of! I know it often still gets me after lots of studying, asking questions etc...some of the top breeders I know still ask others for opinions quite often! Good way to learn more and get others perspectives in the process! Also, everyone percieves the SOP different from the other person...sometimes the same rabbit that is BOB today can be first off the table tomorrow...different judge, different perception etc! The more opinions the better! :woohoo


I didn't know every comment to me warranted an exclamation point. Please forgive me for offering an opinion. I guess I will start looking for another forum, I bow to your omnipotent knowledge of rabbits.


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## CorkysMom (Sep 27, 2007)

Well I guess if thats how you took it, then you did, it wasn't meant that way I know far from everything about rabbits and can admit it, crap like this is why I left here originally. 

You stay, I'll go. Later.


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## clarzoo (Sep 27, 2007)

Woah! Wabbitdad12, PuterGeekGirl...



Please, don't leave! Everyone's opinion is valid and important to our forum. I am not sure if more words have been said elsewhere- but I sure hope this is just a misunderstanding. Please remember that intent and emotion are almost impossible to read correctly in a forum environment like this- and can easily be taken the wrong way.



I really don't want to see either of you leaving the forum! Please reconsider and stick around.


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## Haley (Sep 27, 2007)

Thats what makes this forum awesome is multiple perspectives and opinions.

Its ok to disagree on things (and, for the record I dont think the exclamation points were meant to be offensive at all).

We love having you both! Can we agree to disagree and move on? eace


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## TinysMom (Sep 27, 2007)

One of the most experienced breeders I know says that when you show rabbits, you're paying $3 (or whatever - its $3 here) for another person's opinion - and sometimes that's $2.98 too much!

Peg*


PuterGeekGirl wrote:*


> Also, everyone percieves the SOP different from the other person...sometimes the same rabbit that is BOB today can be first off the table tomorrow...different judge, different perception etc! The more opinions the better! :woohoo


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## Wabbitdad12 (Sep 27, 2007)

My apologies to everyone. I could have been more diplomatic in my response.eace


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## BlueGiants (Oct 3, 2007)

*TinysMom wrote: *


> One of the most experienced breeders I know says that when you show rabbits, you're paying $3 (or whatever - its $3 here) for another person's opinion - and sometimes that's $2.98 too much!
> 
> Peg*
> *





Sigh... ain't it the truth! My favorite white Flemish girl, Waikiki, whom I love dearly and is the most beautiful white I've had in a while, took Best White (BOV) at a Specialty show the first day (over 32 other whites) and was given serious consideration for BOB... and was 13 out of 14 in her classthe second day. :huh

Naturally I respect the first judge's opinion over the second! LOL! :disgust: (He's entitled to his opinion, I'm entitled to mine.)

And we need all the opinions we can get around here! :highfive:


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## clarzoo (Oct 3, 2007)

Tell me about it. We've got one old judge down here that is awesome at judging commercial breeds. But that's about it. He forces the running breeds into poses and gets frustrated at them when they don't stay! Lol! At the last show, he was asked to give a judging demo to the youth exhibitors. The topic he chose: Handling Running Breeds when judging!! I almost fainted!!! I know he was wanting to give the kids some tips about judging these difficult to handle breeds, because Tans are becoming very popular in our area, and Checkereds and Belgians are new to the state- but he certainly doesn't need to be sharing his tips, lol!

That day he placed a Checkered that has markings that are a questionable DQ first, over my buck that took Reserve in Show the weekend before. Everyone watching the judge just: :huhMy buck went on to take first in the next show that same day under another judge! Lol! Like you said- everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I respect some more than others.... hehehe! :biggrin2:


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## JAK Rabbitry (Oct 3, 2007)

I've had rabbits accomplish similar feats. BOV one day and placed last in the second show or specialty. I find it odd that people just describe this as the ''judge's opinion''. 

It kind of makes me nervous sometimes, like all these judges are the ones we're trusting to honestly place our rabbits. And we all had multiple rabbits that place up, down, left and right and all over the place. 

It makes me wonder like... are they all looking at a different standard? If they're supposed to judge according to tht stndard, how can we get such bogus and out of what placings all the time? 

I do givet hem a lot of credit though, having to memorize a rough standard for ...what...46? breeds is an admirable feat. 

But like someone mentioned, i'm paying $3 each time, and each time it's something different. Drives me up a wall. 


-JAK


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## BlueGiants (Oct 3, 2007)

NEVER, ever let it bother you ... and NEVER get rid of or pass on a rabbit because of one judges comments! You know your rabbits best of all. You know their strong points and shortcomings... and you can read the Standard as well as the judge. 

Sometimes the rabbit just won't sit right or he's hunching his shoulders, or the light makes his color look bad , or he doesn't like the way the judge smells, or doesn't like the way the show box smells, or the judges glasses are dirty and he really doesn't have that white spot... OR.... OR.... well, you know. Not all judges are perfect in all breeds. Over time, you get to know which judges are knowledgable in your breed and which ones you respect. Not because your rabbit always wins under them, but because they have the ability to really know the breed and see the good points or flaws, (regardless of the rabbits attitude at the time). 

You enter a show, you get ONE persons opinion of ONE rabbit at ONE moment in time. And that's all it is... an opinion.

JMHO...


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## hopntailrabbitry (Oct 3, 2007)

I would love to show in ARBA. But oh my god you will laugh at this. I kinda did at the end of that but in the beginning I was a little bit mad... but anyways lol

A few weeks ago I had my 4-H club meeting and I'm the vice president and the president was talking to me of like oh you do know you need your rabbit to be tattoo'd for ARBA and you do know they need the standards and it is a lot of money it cost $65-$85 to enter a rabbit into ARBA for the show.

NOW! I kept on nodding my head because this girl thinks she is all hot crap lol First of all I said to her well duh no crap! I know everything about ARBA and you don't. And I also said it does not cost that much money to enter a rabbit I was like your full of it, and I told her, you know what you don't know anything blah blah blah. I can't STAND the president! OH MY GOD I hate her soo much she thinks she knows everything. So yeah after a few times I remembered what she told me that just made me laugh cause she doesn't know anything. lol But thank god this is my last year in 4-H because I'm dropping it.


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## JAK Rabbitry (Oct 3, 2007)

It'd be a shame to quit 4H just because of that. I don't blame you for not being able to stand this girl though. Find out what your club's minimum standards are for being able to compete or be considered a member. I don't know about you but with my horse club we had to make at least 75% of meetings and participate ine 50% of fundraisers and we had to do a demo, then we were elligeable for roundup. 

Maybe you can get by with only going to a few meetings and then doing your own personal studies with your rabbits elsewhere, like in ARBA and meet up with some knowledgeable rabbit peoples and then come to your 4h show and kick everyone's tail. And Ms President will be like ''double yew tee eff, she beat me I don't understand how this happened maybe I don't know everything''. 

And you can tell her ''Hey! I thought you might be interested to know, I think I found a different ARBA From the one you're talking abou and they only charge like $3 to enter a rabbit! ''


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## TinysMom (Oct 4, 2007)

I've been staying out of this discussion on purpose. I have a problem with bucks - I love them and want to keep them....all of them. 

I think something you need to consider are - your rabbitry goals - the space in your rabbitry (cage space) - and what you can give this guy.

I still have my original herd buck even though he throws rabbits with maloclussion. I don't breed him - but I have him. I would like to neuter a doe and put her with him so he would be happier. But I sometimes wonder if I should rehome him as a pet. I just can't bring myself to do so.

But let's look at the criteria I've listed. Your rabbitry goals - do you have any? Are you breeding show quality rabbits? If so - then I think I'd pass on him and sell him because I think we've seen some comments on how you should have a better herd buck. 

So let's look at space. Let's say you really love him and want to keep him even if it means not breeding him. Do you have the space? How limited for you on cages? Does keeping him mean you can't keep enough rabbits for your breeding program. (It doesn't hurt to keep one that is a favorite -but what about when you get to 10 or 12 or whatever). If you can afford the cage space and really want to keep him - then I can see keeping him.

But let's look at one final thing....his life with you. If you rehomed him as a pet...would he get more playtime? Is there a chance he'd do better in a home where he is one of one or one of five instead of one of however many rabbits you have?

I'm about to rehome a bunch of mine - I just worked out a way to do it that I'm comfortable with...and while it is hard and I'm crying (and I haven't even started yet)....I have to consider the quality of life the bunny MIGHT have in a pet home - vs. here in my home. I have to say - that other than certain situations I can think of - most of the scenarios would be more loving and fun than what they have here.

Anyway - those are the things I'd consider when deciding whether or not to rehome him.

As a pet owner, I'm so often temped to say, "he's cute..keep him" - but then I need to think about the quality of life the rabbit will have here...with me. I'd encourage you to do the same thing.

Peg

p.s. He is cute!


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## hopntailrabbitry (Oct 4, 2007)

I don't want to quit 4-H just because of her, it also because the rules that they just throw in for the fair that is really stupid and they ive us the new rule on the day of the fair when they made the rule like last year.

But the reason why I want to quit the fair is because of the rules for the fair and it is time for me to go because I've been in it for 8 years and I've gotten BOB 2 years in a row so I think it is time for me to leave 4-H as soon as when I go to college.

Officers have tobe at the meetings I think 90% of the time and regular members have to be there like 75% of the time.


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## BlueGiants (Oct 5, 2007)

Maybe it's time for you to move on to showing in Open. You've done very well (2 BOB! Way to go!). 

Can you find anotherexperienced breeder that will mentor you in Open? Start working on your own. Sometimes it's less aggravation. Ask around at local shows, ask other Holland breeders about their rabbits. Let them know you are starting in Open and ask for their suggestions. Ask them about your herd buck. It may be time to find him a good home and get some new genes to cross with your girls.

Both my daughters had wonderful breeders giving them excellent advice and help over the years (Thanks Roger at RAL Rabbitry!) Many breeders love to see a young person interested in their breed and are willing to help out.

But the reason why I want to quit the fair is because of the rules for the fair and it is time for me to go because I've been in it for 8 years and I've gotten BOB 2 years in a row so I think it is time for me to leave 4-H as soon as when I go to college.


Rules are rules, whether at a Fair or an ARBA show... but all ARBA rules are spelled out very clearly in the handbook. You know what needs to be done ahead of time.

Good luck making a tough decision about your buck. We've all been there and had to make similar choices. You have to do whats best for your rabbits and the future of your breedings.


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## hopntailrabbitry (Oct 5, 2007)

Yea 2 BOB isn't that bad espically in 4-H though. But now that I only have like 2 years to go in 4-H I don't think it is worth it anymore because I know all the scams and everything and I also know what goes on in the leader meetings to cause my mom is a leader too. 

But what I'll probably do since I'm still working on the pedigree papers for my rabbits as soon as when I have them all filled out and such I'll quit 4-H and try to start ARBA. And I might just keep Toby for now on, I offered him to my cousin cause she loves all of my rabbits but her parents said no so I'm stuck with him. But also if I sell Toby he can't go toa home with very very small children;Toby is very tough to handle. 

I guess I'll keep you guys updqted if he will be sold or whatnot. 

Thanks


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