# Dwarf lionhead?



## Hayley411 (Nov 3, 2007)

Hi I have this rabbit that I was told was a dwarf lionhead does this mean she is a netherland dwarf lionhead cross? If not what else does she look like? She does have longer fur on her head and on her bum but it is nothing like the purebred lionheads. Here are some pics of her at about a year old.












Thanks in advance

~Hayley~


----------



## Michaela (Nov 3, 2007)

Hi Hayley! :wave:

She is very cute! 

Have you got any bigger picture of her? Might be easier for people to give a more accuarate idea of what she might be. 

I have a bun that has very similar fur - she was sold to me as a lionhead, I suspect she actually is a lionhead, as all of her brothers and sisters were very fluffy, (but she had the best personality .) She just didn't keep her mane.

What size is she? Lionheads don't all keep their manes, there's a whole thing with single mane, double mane.. it confuses me.  I'll let someone else who has more knowledge about this jump in.  But there's definitely lionhead in her somewhere, I think.


----------



## Jenson (Nov 3, 2007)

She looks like a Lionhead x Dutch to me. 

She's very pretty!


----------



## tonyshuman (Nov 3, 2007)

WHAT?! A DUTCH-COLORED LIONHEAD?!! It's the perfection of cuteness!!!
Lionheads are already pretty small, but I'm no breeder and I haven't heard of a swarf lionhead before or seen one with that coloring!!
By the way, SO CUTE!!!!


----------



## MsBinky (Nov 3, 2007)

Yep, Lionhead x dutch Your bun seems to have a single mane. If I'm not mistaken, it can fall out later on or stay. It's a bit complicated with lionheads.


----------



## Hayley411 (Nov 3, 2007)

Thanks for all the compliments and Thats what I was thinking either netherland dwarf cross or dutchit's a toss up. she is about 3 lbs and I just noticed that both the pictures are her from the same side (I think her far better side) the other side of her there is no white over her shoulder. she also has blue eyes. I bred her to a nethie and got almost the same markings on one of the kits only he had more white on his face( my avatar). Then another was orange with a prominent mane and long furs on her bum. It's a mystery.

~Hayley~


----------



## RAL Rabbitry (Nov 3, 2007)

She is a single mane viennamarked lionhead.

She carries the gene to make blue eyed whites. 

I doubt if there is dutch in her. 

Roger


----------



## TinysMom (Nov 3, 2007)

I'm going to ask Pam Nock to come in here and look at this 'cause she's so good at this.

I'm torn - I've never seen a "vienna marked" lionhead with such distinct markings. Can it happen? Sure. But to me she looks sort of Dutch. I'm just not familiar with that breed.

I'm guessing she is a lionhead mix and she's single mane. I can kind of see the mane - but it isn't a mane like this:










Many times lionheads are crossed with Netherland Dwarfs in order to get the size down. This was frequently done when they were first imported into the US. Because of this - many lionheads carry the "dwarfing" gene and are referred to as "dwarfs". 

She is very very pretty - I love her markings. Her ears are part of what makes me think she's a mix as they aren't quite the shape and size of lionhead ears.

Does she have any type of blue in her eyes - even flecks of blue?

Peg


----------



## Wee Wabbits (Nov 3, 2007)

My guess is also Vienna Marked Lionheadwith possibly someNetherland Dwarf. Blue Eyed White Genes tend to cause dutch like markings in most any breed of rabbit and are often confused with dutch crosses. There are people working on BEW and Vienna Marked Lionheads so it's very likely that she is Vienna Marked. Very cute though.


----------



## MsBinky (Nov 4, 2007)

If I am not mistaken...

Vienna may cause a white strip in the face but it does not cause half the body to be white as the dutch. It can cause white feet etc, but not have dutch markings. I really think that yours is a dutch/lionhead mix


----------



## MyBabyBunnies (Nov 4, 2007)

I've seen a lot of 'dutch marked' rabbits that are really just vienna marked. Go to google and search "vienna marked netherland dwarf" and you will find a whole wack of dutch marked netherlands. I had a hard time finding lionheads but I know I have seen a couple websites with markings very similar.


----------



## pamnock (Nov 4, 2007)

Vienna can cause markings very similar to Dutch markings. I'd guess the rabbit is most likely a Netherland cross.

Pam






Vienna Marked Netherland 

There's an excellent photo of a BEW mismark on the last page of this article http://www.andrc.com/blue_eyed_whites.pdf Looks exactly like a Dutch


----------



## XxMontanaxX (Nov 4, 2007)

That looks exactly like the rabbit Iheld in petco today.

One of the workers said it was a netherland dwarf x lionhead.


----------



## Hayley411 (Nov 5, 2007)

Hi everyone I have a very happy update I contacted the North American liohead rabbit club and asked them if sherbert really is a single-mane vienna marked lionhead and not a mix. I just got am e-mail back that said that she indead was that very thing, i am very excited about this but wondering if I were to breed her to a double-mane buck would get double-mane kits? I hope so that would be fun!

~Hayley~


----------



## MsBinky (Nov 5, 2007)

The whole vienna, dutch thing is wayyyy too confusing for moi. Lol. :?Anyway, glad you know what your bun is


----------



## TinysMom (Nov 5, 2007)

Hi Hayley! I'm writing this as a lionhead breeder - I have two years of breeding and studying the breed behind me and I would like to share my perspective.

First of all, what are your goals in breeding? This is very important before you make a decision to breed this doe. If you are wanting to breed for show quality rabbits or to sell to other breeders ~ I would not breed this doe. She would only be good for someone who has a blue eyed white breeding program because of the vienna gene.

Please understand...I'm not saying she's cute. She is cute...I LOVE vienna marked rabbits and I have had a blue eyed white program going in the past.

But what I have found from my experience is that when you breed for pet quality rabbits - you may wind up not finding homes for all of them (and some of my bigger does have had 8-9 babies). Will you have the space for the babies? What will you do if they don't sell? Trust me - I have over 100 rabbits in my 'herd' largely because of breeding the older style of lionhead rabbits (which is what your rabbit is) and having pet quality rabbits. I know of two or three breeders in the Oregon/Washington area who are breeding top quality lionheads and they are doing well to sell to pet homes for really low prices (no - breeding isn't about the prices). 

I think that I'm partly concerned for two specific reasons though. 

a. First of all - your doe is single mane - and she has the older style look of the narrow head and larger ears. My experience has shown me that she probably won't produce the "lionhead" look that people are going for. The look is now more of a rounded head and shorter ears - let me share a few photos to show what I mean..

This is Rachel - she really doesn't have the head like I like - but you can see some of how her head is wider (in the nose area) and thus closer to what lionheads seem to be going to for show quality lionheads.








This is Isenstar - I had her flown in from your area...notice her "cat-like" ears for shape.








I need to update Angela's photo - but look at her mane here. It is not as full now but it is still nice:





With a single mane lionhead with the style of face that your doe has...I just don't think that she will breed what folks are looking for in a lionhead - particularly since there are some top notch breeders in your area (and I'll be glad to make some recommendations).

Also - if you breed your doe to a double-mane buck, each kit has a 50/50 chance of being single mane. Each kit should have at least some sort of a mane...but I have bred single mane rabbits and rarely really had some good double mane kits come out of it.

I'm going to show you a picture of Triad...his mane is still about this nice and he's like 2 years old now..






But I really would like to address my main concern here.

b. If I had it to do over again - I would never breed a bunny that I adopted as a pet. I did so with my first lionhead, GingerSpice. I felt like she was good enough quality to breed (even though she had a mismark). Her breeder I got her from even stated that she was probably good for breeding.

But as she was weaning her kits, I saw her immunity system decline - and from then on - she had problems off and on and finally died of what we believe was e cunniculi...which I imagine started because her immunity system became compromised.

Now when I go to breed (and I love all of my does - don't take me wrong) - I make sure that I know that I could lose that doe and I have to be willing to face that. I've been very fortunate - and there have been some does that I've fallen in love with that I bought for breeding - and I chose to never breed them but just keep them as pets.

Once again - I'm not saying that your doe isn't cute and I'm not saying that she is "bad". 

Its just...I know of at least three or four breeders who are selling pedigreed rabbits up there (even as pets) and sometimes even giving them away if they're pet quality because it can be hard to find them homes...that I would hate to see you get into breeding and then have to take care of several other lionheads.

If I've offended you - I apologize now. But I figured that since you were checking out lionheads and were checking out the club website (the standard for lionheads is on that website)...you might want to hear what a lionhead breeder would have to say.

I will say that your doe is one of the nicest marked vienna marked rabbits I've ever seen. Here is one of my favorite vienna marked rabbits - and its why I thought maybe your rabbit was part dutch - because of the extent of the markings..






Peg*

Hayley411 wrote: *


> Hi everyone I have a very happy update I contacted the North American liohead rabbit club and asked them if sherbert really is a single-mane vienna marked lionhead and not a mix. I just got am e-mail back that said that she indead was that very thing, i am very excited about this but wondering if I were to breed her to a double-mane buck would get double-mane kits? I hope so that would be fun!
> 
> ~Hayley~


----------



## undergunfire (Nov 6, 2007)

I second Peg!


Breeding is not for "fun" or to have "cute babies". You should only breed if you are trying to "better" a breed.

There are way to many rabbits in shelters or over-flowing in hoarder's/abuser's homes....just waiting to be adopted or found.

Your doe, even though she is adorable, does not look anywhere near breeding quality, and there for should not be used for breeding. Have her spayed, and enjoy her as a loving pet. If you want babies, then you can foster a pregnant doe or a doe with kits from a shelter.


----------



## jam224 (Nov 6, 2007)

Peg -- wow, thank you for sharing all that. I think it was very well-written.

I was also concerned when you mentioned breeding her. I would hope that anyone who does choose to breed rabbits, does so for the sake of improving the breed. But I went back and looked at your intro post, Hayley, and you mentioned that you were raising rabbits as a school/FFA project. I'm not sure what that means and I think it would be helpful, if you wouldn't mind clarifying that for us!


----------



## MsBinky (Nov 6, 2007)

Though I have nothing against breeders, I couldn't become one myself knowing that all those buns in shelters are overlooked because people prefer getting from breeders. I couldn't be happy knowing I was helping make that worse. But then again, I know that everyone has different opinions and different reason so I will never put someone down over it. 

But yes, I agree with the others when they say that breeding her would be good only to better the breed and unless you wanted babies from her for yourself for special reasons, I would just cherish her and have her spayed. :biggrin2:

*HEHE I clicked on the emoticon and the happy face went in the top left corner on the forum itself not in the text box. Lol. Here I am decorating the forum. Don't mind me. Lol*


----------



## seniorcats (Nov 6, 2007)

*jam224 wrote: *


> Peg -- wow, thank you for sharing all that. I think it was very well-written.
> 
> I was also concerned when you mentioned breeding her. I would hope that anyone who does choose to breed rabbits, does so for the sake of improving the breed. But I went back and looked at your intro post, Hayley, and you mentioned that you were raising rabbits as a school/FFA project. I'm not sure what that means and I think it would be helpful, if you wouldn't mind clarifying that for us!



Jen, you must be a city slicker! When I was in school, it was Future Farmers of America. FFA is for agricultural education from middle school through college and on.

http://www.ffa.org/


----------



## undergunfire (Nov 6, 2007)

I really don't understand FFA or 4-H.


If kids are breeding rabbits, then why not bring in higher quality stock, and strive to reach the breed standard (or close to it)...instead of breeding lower quality rabbits?


At the county fair in NY where I lived, I remember there being tons of mixed breed rabbits at the 4-H booths. I never understood why people bred mixed breeds on purpose for 4-H. It just ads up to more homeless rabbits in the world.


Does that make sense? lol.


----------



## Hayley411 (Nov 6, 2007)

Ihave read all of your comments and concerns and Iwon't start my breeding program with her. I just threw that out there to see if it would be possible to get double-manes out of her. I have been doing some research trying to find a good lionhead breeder to get some pedigreed rabbits from around here.To answer another Question FFA is of course future farmers of america where you breed and/or show some kind of livestock animal. I also have a project through my advanced agriculture class were we breed and show. As of yet I haven't shown though.

I will admit that I got her fully intending to breed her and I have bred her two times before. This is all before I became aware of the risks of breedingand the plight of shelter rabbits. In my defence no one had ever told me anything was wrong with just breeding rabbits. The bunnies that were born as a result, I made sure found the best homes I could,all of them are house rabbits and apart of there respective families.

Ihope this clears things up and I am sorry that I offended some of you with breeding or intending to breedthis rabbit.

~Hayley~


----------



## MsBinky (Nov 6, 2007)

Oh hey, I seriously doubt anyone was getting upset with the idea of you breeding her. I stated my opinion but that's all it is, an opinion. Just because I saee things one way doesn't mean you have to see it the same way. I do not understand why it is part of the course though... Is there not something else they could do instead? :?Not all farmers show, so I don't understand it. Is there a specific reason?


----------



## TinysMom (Nov 6, 2007)

Hayley,

One of my very favorite breeders is up in your area and I have some nice rabbits from them at great prices. The breeder is Nita Shannon and she has Legendary Lionheads 
Their website addy is http://www.legendaryminis.com/LionheadRabbits.html and let me tell you - I think their rabbits are GORGEOUS.

As good as Nita is with rabbits- I LOVE her daughter Kaela and her eye for rabbits. I bought two rabbits off Kaela last spring and I just adore them. She was able to describe them for me so well that when I got them - I was really pleased. Their prices weren't bad either.

I think part of my concern (and I'm certainly not faulting you for breeding lionheads or the doe you had) - is that if things go for you like they did for me - you could wind up with a barn full of animals that it is hard to rehome. For some reason, I swear those older style does can have TONS of kits and then to try and find them homes...it can be tough.

I just visited Nita and Kaela's site and I didn't see any rabbits over $100 - and one cute little buck was $25. 

I say this because if you wanted to breed lionheads - bet they could set you up with a nice trio to get started with.

They are located in [size="+2"]Washougal, Washington ...and travel to many rabbit shows.

Peg

[/size]


----------



## jam224 (Nov 6, 2007)

*seniorcats wrote: *


> *jam224 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Peg -- wow, thank you for sharing all that. I think it was very well-written.
> ...


LOL, thanks, Ann! I did Google it and figured out what it stands for, but the only organization that I'm familiar with showing rabbits is ARBA. I guess FFA has different standards? I don't know... yup, never heard of 'em. 

I don't think you offended anyone here, Hayley.  I hope our concerns didn't turn you off. It sounds like Peg is a wealth of information for you and it sounds like you're learning a lot since starting your program!


----------

