# Alfalfa for adults...



## undergunfire (Feb 22, 2009)

Living in AZ, I have a terrible choice in hay. With the wedding, Ryan and I are really cutting things down because we don't want to have to charge a bunch of things to the credit card.

Hay here in AZ is YUCK! The Timothy or Orchard Grass hay from the local grain store is dusty and is in tiny pieces. The rabbits like it, but I can't deal with the mess it makes. That feed store also keeps the hay outside under this metal frame with a tarp as a cover...which does not protect the hay from the strong sun here or the rain/snow.

I was driving the other day and saw hay on the back of a truck. The truck was a local tack shop. I didn't know they sold feed or hay. I think the hay was Alfalfa because it was insanely green.

Now...is it really that bad for adult bunnies to eat Alfalfa hay? They eat Oxbow BBT (which IS a timothy pellet). I have just never seen hay so green here and I do think it is most likely Alfalfa. I was thinking if I could get a 80+lbs bale for $20, then it would sure beat the 35lbs box of Timothy from Kleenmama's that I pay $50 for.


----------



## PepnFluff (Feb 22, 2009)

Most of my hay is alfalfa/meadow grass mix, we simply don't have a variety of hays and this is the best I can get. I got my supplier/grower guy to find out what he grows for me. Mine don't seem to have any ill effects from it, Fluffys turning 6 this year, he's extremely healthy according to the vets..... Ruby's suspected to be about one/two and is pretty healthy too....


----------



## Pet_Bunny (Feb 22, 2009)

Hay is hay. I use it for my bunnies, but in a limited way (not free feed). I only give them alittle every day like a treat. They love it because it is rich and fattening. When my bunniesrefuse toeat it,then I know something is wrong with them. However, it can work the other way, that it can spoil them, and they don't want other hay when there is Alfalfa. 

Alfalfa can be messy too, as the leaves crumble and break. The bales that I get are always different, but my rabbits eat more hay nowthan the store bought bags.


----------



## pamnock (Feb 22, 2009)

For your adult rabbits on a timothy based pellet - I'd say avoid the alfalfa hay and provide your rabbits with leafy greens which will provide fiber without adding excessive protein and minerals to their diet.

All hays are *not* the same and nutritional content varies widely. Some hays (especially alfalfa) are rich in protein and minerals (fat content in all hays is negligible). Grass hay is generally recommended for house rabbits and alfalfa is discouraged. This is due to the high protein and mineral content(calcium is especially a concern inmature rabbits)of alfalfa.(Good alfalfa hay protein is as high as 20%!).

For rabbits prone to bladder problems - alfalfa is an absolute no-no. 

From Oxbow "This hay (alfalfa)is perfect for young or lactating animals that need concentrated nutrition. The succulent taste stimulates the appetite of ill or post-surgical animals. Once an animal reaches adulthood or completes recovery, this nutritious forage should be replaced with a grass hay." http://www.oxbowanimalhealth.com/products/type/detail?object=1518

If the people selling the alfalfa are saying that the average rabbit should not be eating it, then you know it's probably not a good idea. 

Alfalfa is primarily used for dairy cows requiring a super-high protein a mineral source for milk production. It's simply not suitable for rabbits.

Pam


----------



## ra7751 (Feb 22, 2009)

I have to agree and disagree with the posts. Hay is not hay....all hay has nutritional differences....even different cuts of the same hay and even field to field depending on growing conditions. Grass hays should be available at all times...."free choice" as it is known. Hay is essential to a properly operating digestive system. Rabbits are "hind gutfermenters" and the grass hay is the primary focus of the fermentation process in the cecum. Grass hay is also the primary way the teeth are worn down. Rabbit's teeth are open rooted like a horse. Contrary to popular belief, it's not how hard something is, it's how chewy it is that wears the teeth down. Grass hays such as timothy, oat, brome, orchard grass, bermuda, etc.are neither rich or fattening....it is the food that Mother Nature intended rabbits to eat. We have rabbits here that eat only high quality grass hays...no pellets...to maintain proper weight. What do wild rabbits primarily eat? Grass. Ever see an overweight wild rabbit? I haven't and I have had hundreds of wild rabbits in my rescue. The inner workings of domestic and wild rabbits are identical. In the real world, "special" treats and overfeeding pellets are the cause of the majority of obese rabbits as well as most digestive system issues and dental issues. Grass hays are the "low protein, high fiber" diet that rabbits require to be healthy.

I do feed alfalfa hay to nearlyall my rabbits (weight is the primary concern if they don't get a little bit of alfalfa)....either alone or in horse mixes. I do not feed it free choice due to the much higher proteins....meaning calories. Feeding alfalfa free choice will result in an obese rabbit. I use itthe most in rabbits that are recovering from injury or illness....andI do use it "free choice" in baby rabbits. All my rabbits get alfalfa as a treat once a week or so. The long perceived negatives regarding calcium and urinary issues appear to be generally unfounded. In reality, just like with people, it appears that some rabbits are just prone to calcification issues regardless of diet. Ihad a rabbit here a few years ago that had the worst urinary issues we have ever had. His diet (and he was herehis entire life after weaning) was strictly Oxbow BBT andOxbow Timothy Hay (Ino longer use any products from Oxbow) No doubt that rabbits do metabolize calcium differently than most animals. But it appears the urinary calcium levels might be caused moreby an overall improper diet as it is by feeding alfalfa hay. The problem I have with all the info out there about keeping calcium to near nothing is based on "observations" long ago of the appearance of rabbit urine. Fact is, rabbitscan developa condition known as Metabolic Bone Disease just like any other animal. This is basically Osteoporosis in the animal world. A rabbit's skeletal system represents about 7% of it's body mass which is much lower than other mammals. Combine that with the very strong muscles, a rabbit with MBD can suffer from fractures especially in the hind quarter along with other health issues. There is beginning to be some signals that MBD might be part of the cause of jaw abscesses since soft bones can allow the teeth to migrate. They do need calcium as a part of their diet....but like everything else except grass hay and water....in moderation.

Grass hay is essential to your rabbit's health and should be fed free choice at all times. Alfalfa can be a limited part of this hay...but my concern with alfalfa is much more with the protein levels and weight gain rather than calcium levels.

I use a lot of horse hay....any hay that is safe for a horse is safe for a rabbit. Find the high end equine community and see if you can get some hay contacts thru them. They might even be willing to sell you a bale or two. Most of my hay comes from farms that have horses worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. You know they aren't going to have bad hay going to those horses. You might also want to check your states Department of Agriculture. I check "Hay Alert" ads for both NC and VA and have found great hay at bargain prices. Go to horse shows or the rodeo....ask them where they get good quality hay. And also visit the fairs and festival (they are usually in the fall around here) as they are usually agricultural oriented.

Randy


----------



## pamnock (Feb 22, 2009)

I did want to add another concern about the high protein diets such as those containing alfalfa or other high protein sources. These diets are high in nitrogen, which causes the kidneys to work much harder. While protein is necessary in the diet for building and maintaining tissues, too much is difficult for the body to dispose of and can be a strain on the mature rabbit's kidneys as well as a cause of liver dysfunction.



Pam


----------



## naturestee (Feb 23, 2009)

I just wanted to add that some rabbits get cecal issues from alfalfa hay due to the high protein content. I can't feed it at all to Fey due to her megacolon- she gets both bad cecals and mushy fecals. But my other three adults can have it in limited amounts. I do let those guys have some of the stuff that's mixed into the hay bales I buy. They love rooting around for a tiny bit of alfalfa in a big pile of grass hay, and end up eating a ton of grass while they're at it.

If you're having trouble containing the local grass hay, try attaching solid boards/cardboard/etc. to the hay racks and the cage walls near where they hay is kept. Also, when asking around for hay ask if anyone has some that isn't chopped so small. That's why those bales have shorter pieces. I'm not sure why some places order that instead of the longer hay.

If you happen to know anybody, you can also ask buffalo farmers. They're like rabbits- sensitive to too much protein- and need to eat primarily grass hay. My in-laws raise them and that's where I get some of my hay.


----------



## undergunfire (Feb 23, 2009)

Thank, guys. I will have to ask the tack store about their hay when I get the chance.

We don't have "expensive" stables around here or anything like that. I am sure a lot of people buy hay from the feed store here, but that hay is just sooo messy and dusty for us.

I've been searching around on Craigslist, but the dealers want you to buy in bulk.


----------



## tonyshuman (Feb 25, 2009)

If you have a garage, by all means buy in bulk! You could even sell or give extra to other rabbit owning friends--that's how the House Rabbit Society here in Madison works. The one person buys a lot of hay and sells it to the rest of the people out of his garage. It's way cheaper than petstore hay, they make a little $ for the foster bunnies, and you have access to pretty good quality hay. Hay isn't always like other things--when you buy socks in bulk, sometimes they're not of as high quality. When you buy hay in bulk, it may be pretty darn good.


----------



## undergunfire (Feb 26, 2009)

*tonyshuman wrote: *


> If you have a garage, by all means buy in bulk! You could even sell or give extra to other rabbit owning friends--that's how the House Rabbit Society here in Madison works. The one person buys a lot of hay and sells it to the rest of the people out of his garage. It's way cheaper than petstore hay, they make a little $ for the foster bunnies, and you have access to pretty good quality hay. Hay isn't always like other things--when you buy socks in bulk, sometimes they're not of as high quality. When you buy hay in bulk, it may be pretty darn good.



Thank you ! That is what I am trying to do. We do have a garage, but I have seen 2 black widow spiders in there, which that freaks me out.

I can't wait until we move to Madison, then! Ryan is going out there from March 4th until the 9th to discuss plans of us moving out there within the next year (or maybe less!).


Oh, ETA.....A lady on CL responded to my add and said she had hay from Kentucky that *might* be bluegrass. She said she isn't sure how messy it is because it is for her horses.


----------



## tonyshuman (Feb 26, 2009)

Well right now Tony and Muffin aren't too sure about the HRS hay, but I hope they'll warm up to it Frida and Benjamin love it. 

I don't blame you about the spiders!


----------



## Pet_Bunny (Feb 27, 2009)

Thanks Pamnock, Ra7751, and Naturestee. I'll cut back on the alfalfa and use it as a treat.

I am getting more hay in a few days. For sure I will save 1 bale for Luvabun, and maybe 1 bale for Fuzzy. The 1 bale for me, I will split up and pass it out to 2 other bunny owners.


----------



## JadeIcing (Feb 27, 2009)

My concern would be Brody. It may be to rich for him.


----------



## undergunfire (Feb 27, 2009)

Well, come to find out that the hay from Kentucky that a lady offered me is my bunny vet . It is Dr. Batt! I am meeting her at the clinic on Monday at 3pm to take a look at the hay and possible buy a 100 pound bale for $10. I don't know what I will do with all that hay! I hope that black widow spiders don't make a home in it, with it being out in the garage.


----------



## Pet_Bunny (Feb 27, 2009)

*undergunfire wrote: *


> look at the hay and possible buy a 100 pound bale for $10.


You can't go wrong for $10.00 when it is from your Doctor. 

Just think of it as 100 bags of oxbow costing 7X more.


----------

