# Will Star Die?



## Kricket (Jul 22, 2005)

This is going to sound terrible. I will (try) to make a long story short. Went to the vet yesterday to getShortyand Star some sort of tick treatment. The doctor sold me 1cc (each) of Ivermectin 1% injection - propylene. It is given by the mouth. I gave the buns their meds last night before playtime. They were fine. Bedtime - they got two cheerios. I was up by 4am. They seemed fine. Gave them breakfast by 4:30am. They ate. I went to work. Came home at 9:45am. It was playtime and Star was clearly sick. Ears down. Curled up in a ball.Kind of wobbly. She had a greenish fishy smelling discharge around her mouth. Her eyes looked ok. She tried to get to her favorite spot by the vent for a cool breeze and when she tried to hop, it looked more like a walk. She was clearly not well. It took me about 3 minutes to KNOW she was sick. Phoned the vet and she wanted me to take her in and leave her for most of the day.

I (of course) am SO worried my little funny bunny might die. I am wondering if it was the medication that made her fall ill...? If it was the meds, why didn'tShorty get sick?

I am very, VERY short on cash. My mom gave me $50. I have $87.00, so I think the bill will be covered. This will sound awful, but will they charge me if she dies? The tears just started again when I typed that. I've been preparing myself all day for the worst and hoping for the best. Is Star going to die? I will miss her SO, SO much. Shorty will miss his sister too. He already misses her. He didn't eat his greens this afternoon. I sat by their cage and cried before I had to be at work. Sorry this is so long.


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## CorkysMom (Jul 22, 2005)

Oh no...I'm SOOOO sorry to hear about Star, sending her AND you good thoughts and vibes...hang in there!!!


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## FreddysMom (Jul 22, 2005)

ooo kricket!! I am sorry! ..if it is somethingurgent that is expensive, you can speak to the office manager of yourvets office to see if they will let you have a payment plan. ....i hopeStar is okay and nothing happens....she is with the vet right now andcouldnt be at a better place to get treated. they are going to takecare of her and do what she needs done to make her better. I hopeeverything turns out okay!!!!!!!!!


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## naturestee (Jul 22, 2005)

:shock::shock::shock::shock::shock::shock:

Oh, my goodness! I hope she pulls through! Iremember someone mentioning that Buck lost one of his babies (was it ablue-eyed dutch????) to an ivermecting allergy. 

PLEASE pull through, Star!

:rose:


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## edwinf8936 (Jul 22, 2005)

It could be a reaction to the medicine and likepeople they also will only affect one and not others. I don'tknow about the discharge from the mouth unless it is stuff that hadbuilt up in her mouth. 

Ed


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## Kricket (Jul 22, 2005)

Thanks you all. Brought tears to myeyes. I adore all of you for your love for animals and yourability to care for people.

Hugs! K


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## CorkysMom (Jul 22, 2005)

Please keep us posted...as FreddysMommentioned..talk to them about a pmt plan...I'm still paying off all ofCorky's treatements/surgeries!!! My vet was WONDERFUL aboutthat whole thing......


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## FreddysMom (Jul 22, 2005)

another option is the bill is too much you, andif you have the time to spare..is offer to work it off at thevet's office. i know its not the best job.. butmostplacesalways need someone to clean cages and stuff likethat....ive def. got my fingers crossed for you n Star!!!!!!!!:heart::star:


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## Zee (Jul 22, 2005)

Oh no not Star !!!

I'm sending good thoughts and keeping you and Star in myprayers. I will be keeping an eye on this thread for anupdated on how it goes with Star.
ray::hug:


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##  (Jul 22, 2005)

OH Kricket Iam so sorry , The Vetshould be giving her benidryllinjections to counter the Ivermectin, sounds like she is reacting ,poor baby . 

As for charging aftera death some dosome dont , it mostly depends on thesympothy of the Vet. :ets hope heis Very sympothetic. , Youpoor girl you have been thru hell latelyits time GOOD cameyour way ! sending positiveVibes and positive Prayers toyou and Star! .


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## Carolyn (Jul 22, 2005)

Dearest Kricket,

I'm so sorry to learn about Star. I so wish I had a definite answer foryou, Dear Friend, but unfortunately, I don't. The first thing thatcomes to mind is a reaction to the Ivermectin, which charcoal has beenknown to help if gotten into the rabbit's system quickly after thedosage was given. That has been known to help with overdoses ofIvermectin if the rabbit has a sensitivity to it. 

The only other thing I wonder about at the moment is if the tick had Lyme Disease. You might ask the vet about antibiotics. 

As Gypsy said, when it comes to the bill, some vets will work with you.Don't go there yet. Right now, one upset and worry at a time is morethan you need to think about.

Prayers are being said for you, Star, and Shorty. 

ray:

-Carolyn


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## pamnock (Jul 22, 2005)

*gypsy wrote:*


> OH Kricket I amso sorry , The Vetshould be giving her benidryllinjections to counter the Ivermectin,




The reaction isn't an allergic reaction, so benadryl or an epi won'thelp. The toxicityreaction (if that'swhat happened) is due to a genetic deletion mutation that allows themedication to cross the blood/brain barrier. The benadryl orepi will only help in situations where a hisamine(allergic)reaction needs to be controlled.

Recommended supportive care is to put the rabbit on an IV to keepfluids and electrolytes up. A respirator is used for thosesuffering respiratory depression.

Signs of Ivomec toxicity:


[*] Dilated pupils

[*] Depression

[*] Drooling

[*] Vomiting

[*] Tremors

[*] Disorientation

[*] Weakness

[*] Recumbency (inability to rise)

[*] Blindness

[*] Nonresponsiveness

[*] Slow heart rate

[*] Slow respiratory rate

[*] Coma or death


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## pamnock (Jul 22, 2005)

I just re-read the post -- did you give themeach 1 full cc???????????? That's 10 times the recommendeddose for a small rabbit. The correct dosage is 1/10 of a ccper every 5 lbs. of body weight. If thisoverdose is thevet's fault, I would certainly hold themresponsible for treatment.

Pam


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## cirrustwi (Jul 22, 2005)

OMG!! Ok, first I'm so sorry for thissituation you are in. This is awful! I will bepraying for Star.

Unfortunately, they will charge you if she passes. I've hadthat experience. Most vets will work with you to makepayments. I hate to bring this up, but why did your vet givean injectable orally? I've given the injectable by drops inthe ears as treatment for mites, but never orally. I think Iwould have a bunch of questions for your vet.

Jen


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## pamnock (Jul 22, 2005)

Jen,

The injectable Ivomec is commonly given orally in rabbits.

Pam


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## cirrustwi (Jul 22, 2005)

*pamnock wrote: *


> Jen,
> 
> The injectable Ivomec is commonly given orally in rabbits.
> 
> Pam


REALLY??? That sounds so strange to me! Do you knowwhy it's ok to give orally to rabbits and not other animals?On the bottle it warns that it's not to be injested...at least thebottle I have here at work says that and we just got it in a couple ofweeks ago, so it's not an older bottle. Are there differentkinds?

Jen


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## pamnock (Jul 22, 2005)

Ivermectin is commonly given orally to horses,dogs, cats, hamsters, rabbits, etc.and is, in fact, evengiven to humans orally.

Many meds. commonly carry warnings not to ingest them.

Pam


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## pamnock (Jul 22, 2005)

Kricket,

What color/breed is Star?(wanted to note if certain colors are more sensitive).

I feel so bad because I told you to take them to the vet for the flea/tick treatments **



*Pam*


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## Carolyn (Jul 22, 2005)

:sad: Tsk, oh Kricket. You poor thing!

I've known vets who didn't charge if something like this happened and they lost the animal.

Of course, my thoughts and prayers are focused on you and Star right now.

ray: :star:

-Carolyn


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## Carolyn (Jul 22, 2005)

pamnock wrote:


> Kricket,
> 
> What color/breed is Star???(wanted to note if certain colors are more sensitive).
> 
> ...




It wasn't you or Kricket that should feel bad for wanting to get Star'sproblems fixed. That was the correct thing to do. You both did exactlyas you should.

If what is said is true, the _only_ fault it is is of the vet that administered the dosage.

ray: :star: ray:
-Carolyn


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## Kricket (Jul 22, 2005)

I just spoke with the vet. She saysStar is better, but just nervous with all of the commotion and being ina different place. The vet thinks she had a sour stomachpossibly due to the meds, either that or she had a major parasitefall-out reacting to the meds. I am supposed to call back inan hour and a half to check, and hopefully will bring her home tonight.

Sidenote, I swear Shorty seemed SO bummed she was gone when I left forwork. I believe rabbits are so smart, loyalandloving. Is he missing her, or is it just my sympathy orimagination?


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## Kricket (Jul 22, 2005)

*pamnock wrote: *


> Ijust re-read the post -- did you give them each 1 fullcc???????????? That's 10 times the recommended dose for asmall rabbit. The correct dosage is 1/10 of a cc per every 5lbs. of body weight. If this overdose isthevet's fault, I would certainly hold them responsible fortreatment.
> 
> Pam




OH MY GAWD!! They gave me 1cc of Ivermectin mixed withpropylene. The vet described the mixture as syrupy andsweet. But, she did say it was Ivermectin mixed withpropylene. They each got 1 cc of the mixture. I amso scared now! Almost all of the symptoms you mentioned, Pamwere present in Star  what will happen to her?Just talked to the vet and she said she seems ok...??!!!


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## Kricket (Jul 22, 2005)

*pamnock wrote: *


> Kricket,
> 
> What color/breed is Star? (wanted to note if certain colors are more sensitive).
> 
> ...




Star is a black and white Dutch. I saw the ticks in her whitefur on her nose. Same with Shorty. They are brotherand sister. He is fine. He was so sweet when he waslaying with her. Like he was consoling her. She wasall out of sorts


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## pamnock (Jul 22, 2005)

If most of it was glycol, then that'sfine. It's much easier thoughto simply squirt the1/10 of a cc in their mouth than 1 cc of the mixture. 

Rabbits with the genetic deletion can have a reaction to the medicationeven at the recommended dose. However, there is no way todetermine if a rabbit will be sensitive to the medication.

If she's at the vet and on an IV, that's all that can be done fornow. We'll all pray for recovery, but it can take up to 3days.

Please, Please keep us updated.

Pam


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## Kricket (Jul 22, 2005)

Hey Pam, how soon after the meds areadministered will the animal react? If they have asensitivity to it? (Sorry for all of the replies)


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## Carolyn (Jul 22, 2005)

Yes, please keep us updated, and we'll do our part in sending prayers and healthy thoughts to all of you.

ray:

-Carolyn


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## pamnock (Jul 22, 2005)

*Kricket wrote: *


> Star is a black and white Dutch. I saw the ticks in her whitefur on her nose. Same with Shorty. They are brotherand sister. He is fine. He was so sweet when he waslaying with her. Like he was consoling her. She wasall out of sorts




Buck's rabbit that had a reaction was also a Dutch, so I wouldrecommend caution in using Ivomec with any Dutch or breeds that havethe Dutch gene (Dwarf Hotots and standard Hotots).Not allDutch, Dwarf Hotots orstandardHototswill inherit the gene that is the source of theproblem, andwe certainly don't have evidence that thedistribution of the gene is limited only to certain gene pools of justthose breeds.

Pam


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## FreddysMom (Jul 22, 2005)

okay so im not tryingto take this off topic, but since it is already knowledge that any kindof blue have a rxn and that any dutch, hotot (and importantly notedcollies,Shetland sheepdogs, Australian shepards andOld English Sheepdogsalso have this sensitivity)canhave a sensitivity to this drug why is it administered at all to them?I know i am very new to this, but is there no other options? i cantbelieve that there isnt..and what exactly is the mechanism of thesensitivity? is it atoxicity to an actual ingredient thatisresposible for ivermectin's effectiveness...or is itsomething trivial like the suspension they have it in...or does no oneno? sorry the geek just comes out in me on subjects like this...andifanyone could send me links to topics or research papers onthisi would love to read over them!

I hope Star is doing okay and i will continue praying for her recovery!


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## pamnock (Jul 22, 2005)

*Any* drug can cause reactions in certainindividuals. Every single flea/tick medication on the markethas had toxicity effects on some animals. This is theexception, certainly not the rule. I've been using Ivermectinon horses, dogs, cats and rabbits for many years and never had anincident.

We can't say for certain that the blue gene has any relation to theproblem. It seems to be more related to certain *coatpattern* genes, such as Dutch and Merle rather than color genes such asblue.

Pam


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## sfritzp (Jul 22, 2005)

I treated my Checkers with Ivermectin 1/10 ccadministered subqutaniously with a syringe (3 doses 10 days apart tomake sure all the fur mites and their hatching eggs are killed)
My good friend who is a vet (but lives far far away, unfortunately) told me what to do talked me through this.
Checkers had active fur mites. Nick, who lived with her, did not havethem, but she told me to give him *1cc ORALLY*because he most likely would come down with them. Giving itsub-q makes it work quicker - and poor Check was quite miserable withthe little varmits.
So giving 1cc orally is the recommended dose for buns under 10lbs - Ithink that was the wt limit... The vet said more of it wasneeded if given orally, because it had to travel all through theirsystem before it got to their skin. It made sence to me...
The Ivermectin I got (recommended by the vet) was for cattle and swine.I would have to find it and look at the ingredients to see if anythingwas mixed in with it. It came in a sterile 30cc vial.
Checkers got almost immediate relief from it - that's all I know. Aftergiving them both the 1st dose of Ivermectin, I had to disinfect alltheir toys, linen, cage, dishes, and the rug in their play area to killany mites that might be lurking on them. Nick never did getthem  and Checkie never had them again.


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## Kricket (Jul 22, 2005)

Just spoke with the vet again and Star is readyto come home!! YEAH!! Vet says she is eating,drinking, pooping and peeing!!! And she is active and alertnow!! Now I just have 30 more minutes at work!!!Can't wait to go get my baby! Thank you all SO much for yourencouragement and kind words, and of course, thanks for all of theinformation. Pam you are great! I copied all of theinfo on Ivermectin and I am going to make a copy for the vet.Thanks so much! It is amazing what a difference a few hourscan make! Thank you all!!


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## FreddysMom (Jul 22, 2005)

awesome Kricket!! I am SO glad to hear she is doin okay!


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## naturestee (Jul 22, 2005)

That's great!

:groupparty:


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## sfritzp (Jul 22, 2005)

YEA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So happy she's OK!!
:bunnydance: :yes: :jumpforjoy: :clap:


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## Lazyacre (Jul 22, 2005)

Ivermectin 1% injectable isoften givenorally, usually at higher dosage due to a degree of inactivation of thedrug by digestive juices. By injection, for mites, therecommended dosage is 400 mcg/kg, this 0.018 cc/lb of the 1% solutionsold for cattle and swine (10# rabbit would get 0.18cc) given by SQinjection, given orally the same solution isgiven at0.10cc/lb (10# rabbit would get 1cc straight Ivermectin). It isrecommended to repeat the dosage once in 10-1 days to deal with anyhatching mites.

Over-dosage with Ivermectin is rare, doses more than double therecommended dosage have been reported safe in the target animals(cattle and swine). For ease of dosing several rabbits at the sametime, when 1 has mites I treat all 200, I use a standard dosage scale:

&lt;5#-0.10cc

5-10- 0.20cc

.10#-0.30cc

I always give it SQ, it's easiest and quickest for me. Given IM it cancause pain and irritation of the tissue. Ivermectin can also be usedtopically, applied between shoulder blades it will be readily absorbedthru the skin. While toxic reactions to Ivermectin are quite rare inrabbits some have reportedly shown some sensitivity to the drug butusually always recover. I wonder just how much Ivermectin was added tothe glycol to make that 1cc mixture. Friends giving injectable by mouthusually just squirt the medication straight, unmixed, into the rabbit'smouth. This treatment often recommended for Wry Neck due to E cuniculi.


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## Carolyn (Jul 22, 2005)

Thank you, Teachers!

:highfive:

* * * * * *

I'm glad our baby is on the mend, Kricket. That was too close for comfort with both of your little ones now. 

Here's hoping for Peaceful Times Ahead to all. ray:


-Carolyn


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## cirrustwi (Jul 22, 2005)

Thanks for the info! I'm so leery of giving Ivermectin orally or injectable now after these reactions. 

I'm so glad Star is on the mend!!! 

Jen


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## pamnock (Jul 22, 2005)

Great News!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Do watch for any sign of relapse for up to 3 days)

Pam


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## cirrustwi (Jul 23, 2005)

Pam: I'm really curious now. I have ablue mini rex, would she be a great risk if treated withivermec? I was going to treat everyone, but now I'm not sureI want to. How common is a relapse?

Jen


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## pamnock (Jul 23, 2005)

Hi Jen,

From what I've read, if a relapse is going to occur, it will occur within 3 days of treatment. 

As I mentioned in a previous post: "We can't say for certain that theblue gene has any relation to the problem. It seems to bemore related to certain *coat pattern* genes, such as Dutch and Merlerather than color genes such as blue."

Pam


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## rabbitluvr04 (Jul 23, 2005)

Thats so wonderful! I am so glad she is doing better! Yeaah!:clap:


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## Zee (Jul 23, 2005)

Yeah !!!! I'm sooooo pleased to read that Star is doing better.

:star:


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## pamnock (Jul 23, 2005)

*Kricket wrote:*


> Hey Pam, how soon after the meds are administered will theanimal react? If they have a sensitivity to it?(Sorry for all of the replies)




Generally within 24 hours. 

Pam


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## CorkysMom (Jul 23, 2005)

Glad to hear she is better and you took her home...hope she's still better today!


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##  (Jul 23, 2005)

How is Star today Kricket , :waiting:


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## Emmy-webby (Jul 23, 2005)

:groupparty:

Whooo hoo! Great thing that Star is doing better already! 

I'll pray that nothing serious will happen to both of your wonderful buns.

~ Katy


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