# Decisions.... decisions.... BROKEN FLEMISH...



## TinysMom (Apr 21, 2010)

Last weekend - one of the main reasons I made the decision at 3:30 am to go to the show - was I knew it would be my only chance in a while to see a variety of rabbit that is "still in progress" and doesn't yet have a COD pulled on it.

The variety?

Broken Flemish.

Anyone who knows me - knows I LOVE LOVE LOVE brokens. I worked with them a lot when I bred lionheads and I'm working with them now in the holland lops.

Here are the photos:

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[align=left]Now some of you may be saying, "Why not breed them?" After all - the COD holder (soon-to-be) for the variety will hopefully be presenting his COD in the next few months.

But....as you can see from those photos...the rabbits have great color patterns....but their type SUCKS...big time. They're three generations in already and they obviously have a long way to go.

Many long-time breeders of flemish (in the National club) do not like the idea of broken flemish. They feel it can mess up color and type, etc. in the years to come. Some of them have put 15-20 years or more into perfecting their lines for the ring color, etc. - and now this throws something else into the pot. 

I'm not sure exactly how it works - but if the flemish pass their first presentation in a few years and the club says "no" they won't accept them....the variety goes on hold for something like 5 years I think?

This has the potential to split the flemish giant club according to some I've talked to.

So I find myself going back and forth on this issue. I'd love to work with broken steels and broken light gray but I would have to keep my brokens completely separate from the line I want to develop (I could use Mercury to start the broken lines and work in those lines - but I wouldn't want to cross the broken offspring into my solid program).

Its a tough decision. 

When I don't look at those photos - I say to myself, "I can wait until they present in a few years and see if the club accepts them..". 

But then I look at the photos...and think about it some more.

Anyway - I just thought I'd share - if only so folks could see pictures of broken flemish (that the club will not recognize as flemish because they are broken and not accepted by ARBA).


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## bunnybunbunb (Apr 21, 2010)

I LOVVVVEEEE brokens, too. Charlies are my melt factor xD

If you want to do it, why not? Go with your plan, keep two diffrent lines. Why not do it just because *some people* do not like it? Do you breed for them? Nope. Should you start now? Nope.


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## mistyjr (Apr 21, 2010)

WoW!! Cute!


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## mistyjr (Apr 21, 2010)

Never seen an broken Flemish before...


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## elrohwen (Apr 21, 2010)

I love brokens too! I don't know if you should wait or start on it soon, but I think you should start on them someday.

Just curious, how did they get the broken gene into the flemmies? Checkered giants? Something else? I can't think of many large breeds that commonly come in broken colors.


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## TinysMom (Apr 21, 2010)

*elrohwen wrote: *


> I love brokens too! I don't know if you should wait or start on it soon, but I think you should start on them someday.
> 
> Just curious, how did they get the broken gene into the flemmies? Checkered giants? Something else? I can't think of many large breeds that commonly come in broken colors.


They used checkered giants - yes. Mind you - checkered giants aren't known for being "gentle" by any means.

Part of the whole issue is that one breeder who is like a mentor to me (and has rabbits I want to use in my lines) is definitely AGAINST breeding brokens. I would never use his rabbits in breeding brokens because I would want to respect his wishes...BUT...I also might not be able to get more rabbits from him - which I would understand. He's put 25 years into building the breed and getting his lines developed and he thinks that getting brokens would hinder the breed (as do many other breeders I'm finding out).

If I wait until the variety is presented and hopefully passed by the club...then I would not feel so bad.

I do understand the concern other breeders have...as I have talked to some of them.

One of my other concerns is that the two people I know of who are doing them in Texas/Louisiana are letting their rabbits go younger than I feel comfortable buying them. Yeah - its done all the time among breeders....but I don't know.

Right now - Art - who almost always lets me do what I want - is saying, "NO" - firmly. He's reminding me that I want to focus on building my own lines of light gray and maybe steel.

By the way - in defense of my mentor who would probably not sell me anymore rabbits - I have done the same thing in the past to breeders. If there was something about their breeding practices that I did not want my rabbitry associated with - I would never have anything available for them at that time.

I have no problem with a breeder having the right to say "no" to someone - for any reason. Even if they're saying no...to me!


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## undergunfire (Apr 21, 2010)

I'm going to say this as a friend and I feel confident in knowing you won't kick me ....but in a way I think it would be a bad idea. I don't mean to offend (not sure that's the right word), but look at the Lionheads and how many issues there are with type (huge ears!). I kind of wonder if the broken Flemish won't end up like them due to type since it seems like people just can't really get it right and it seems like a lost cause (but I'm not "in" that "crowd", so what do I know, LOL). I'm obviously not a breeder, but that's just what I think.

On the other hand...if you are seriously wanting to do this and are prepared for the tough work and years it could take....then do it! Brokens are your passion in rabbits and if you see the potential in broken Flemish, then I think you'd be really happy if you were able to be apart in making broken Flemish "happen".


:hug1


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## TinysMom (Apr 21, 2010)

Amy - no offense taken at all...trust me.

The difference between broken flemish and the lionheads - is that once the broken flemish are to flemish standards...they're pretty much in. It's not a whole new breed of rabbit (the COD which I have here - mainly deals with the color/broken pattern). 

From what I saw of the brokens - I would think that if bred to very nice typey flemish - they could probably pass the first presentation in 4-5 years - especially since they're already 3 generations into it.

Part of me wants to do it - because Mercury is a fairly nice buck and I think that if I worked with him and 2 broken does - and then took the best offspring back to him - etc. etc. - I think he could really help the lines a LOT. 

I've seen now what he's thrown for 3 litters and one of the things I'm seeing his consistency in - is the rise and the rear. Even when he "bred" himself to a non-flemish - several of her rabbits are very typey.

Its really a tough call...and definitely something I will probably decide to do at some point in the future (and just do it on the side - very quietly). 

But I think it would be awesome if...when they present the broken sandies (the only color they are planning to present in) - I could be standing by with a line of broken light grays and steels that are close to the type, etc.

ARG!


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## wooly_queen (Apr 21, 2010)

I do think that broken flemish are really cool.(Funny...I was just reading about them on something else.)

Once whoever else figures them out and gets the flemish type back into them, I would go for it... 

If you did get into them you would have to cull hard. You don't want them to end up like the lionheads. They have had huge, giganic, monsterous set backs because people aren't paying attention and getting them to the standard that was set for them. They are all over the place... So you would have to work hard and cull, cull, cull. Like hopefully the COD holder will or has been doing. Don't use the crappy ones...or else people will get angry. lol


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## mistyjr (Apr 21, 2010)

i would do it if i was you...


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## bunnybunbunb (Apr 21, 2010)

Nine years ago I got an ideal of mini rex furred lops. I contemplated trying to do it myself but I knew how my luck with rabbits was at the time and I knew nothing of genetics. I did not care what other breeders thought, I was and still am, in rabbits for me. Do what you enjoy!

Years later I saw a Vlop! I was tempted but a buck with no mate would do me no good. Then I heard of the MPL. Love  I would have both breeds, even just to try for s short period, in a heart beat!


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## The Turtle (Apr 21, 2010)

I can't say that I've heard of anyone in the last couple of years expressing a strong desire to add broken to the Flemish lines. There's still an enormous lot of work to be done in the existing solid colors -- getting size on the blues, getting consistent fur on the whites, etc. and there've already been some abortive efforts to get opal into the colors, which effort doesn't appear to have a lot of momentum.

Me, I see all the stuff the other patterned breeds go through -- Dutch DQed for stray spots and things like that -- that I suspect it would be quite a long time before NFFGRB would take action on brokens.

I'm not saying don't do it, just realize that it's going to be an enormous lot of work, and very little of it will have to do with the breeding and rather a lot with the politicking.


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## TinysMom (Apr 21, 2010)

*The Turtle wrote: *


> I can't say that I've heard of anyone in the last couple of years expressing a strong desire to add broken to the Flemish lines. *There's still an enormous lot of work to be done in the existing solid colors -- getting size on the blues, getting consistent fur on the whites, etc.* and there've already been some abortive efforts to get opal into the colors, which effort doesn't appear to have a lot of momentum.
> 
> Me, I see all the stuff the other patterned breeds go through -- Dutch DQed for stray spots and things like that -- that I suspect it would be quite a long time before NFFGRB would take action on brokens.
> 
> I'm not saying don't do it, just realize that it's going to be an enormous lot of work, and *very little of it will have to do with the breeding and rather a lot with the politicking.*


I think you've hit on the points I struggle with as I think about this.

First of all - even the light grays - as long as they've been around - still need work. I believe we somehow need to get them BIGGER - closer to the sandies in size. (When I looked at Juan's two flemish that I'm hoping he's bred already - I was amazed at their size and type for being so young...).

Secondly - its the politicking that bugs me. 

I loved LOVED working with lionheads. The rabbits were/are fun - I loved the genetics behind the colors and studying mane and type and trying to bring good rabbits together. 

Too often now I see people throw together two lionheads (that are horrible examples of the breed - long in body - mule ears, etc) and call themselves "lionhead breeders". I think its done more in lionheads because ARBA has not yet passed the breed and set a standard - so the breeders aren't "policing themselves" so to speak...willing to buy from anyone as long as it has a mane.

This July I was going to be pulling a COD for chocolates and otters in the lionheads - had I stayed with them. 

But the griping and complaining and the pointing fingers of "Don't show AOV colors - only show the standard ones" vs. the "We can show whatever we want" just got to me.

It got to the point where there were only about 5 breeders I would be willing to buy from simply because of things I saw/heard from them.

Do I want to go down that road again? I hate arguing and fussing and fighting.

I'm going to b joining the national club this week and I think when/if it comes up for a vote - which is years down the road - I will probably vote for them. 

But I don't know that I can work on them now when I really want to work on my own lines. 

For instance - right now I have one buck and three does I'm keeping for a bit from my first two litters. I'll probably keep a buck out of Nyx's litter (steel) and a couple of does if they are nice so I can take them to Hermes who carries steel.

But I have to think of the amount of cage space I have for the ones I want to keep for my lines.

Then I look at those photos again, whine at Art and he says, "No. Not now.."

I'm sure glad I have him around.


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## Bramblerose (Apr 26, 2010)

I had the light grays, and yes size was definitely a problem, always has been, although I did produce a few big ones most were 15-17 lbs, its just how it is with the grays. I have to be honest, I cannot see brokens passing, I can see the oldtime breeders banding together to kill it, they are so set in their ways, and do not want any other colors passed. Even those who wanted to work on opal have hit a brick wall, color crossing is such a sin in Flemish, yet its the only way to improve the less advanced colors. Flemish people have a long memory too, they'll remember you as the 'broken breeder' and it may get around and then few breeders will want to sell to you. Its stupid and cliqueish and ridiculous but its how it is. Depends on if you care what other people think.


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## fuzz16 (Apr 27, 2010)

something i wanna throw in there...i am not in agreement with broken flemish. as much as i would LOVE having a broken fawn or blue...it comes off like a lot of breeders are making rabbits to fit the ideals of what will sell.
like said previuosly...there is a lot of work to be done on flemish, by gettin another mutt out there trying to get it ARBA approved it will only mess up the lines of the current flemish....just my take on this...but i think its a bad idea....


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## Bramblerose (Apr 27, 2010)

Had an interesting conversation about this with a rabbit breeder friend this morning, and she had some very interesting points. First was that if folks were truly determined they could get the variety passed, they could bypass the specialty club completely and go straight to ARBA. They would of course have to work their fannies off on improving them and pray for open-minded judges at presentation, but in theory it could be done. I still think that the opposition would be really stalwart in trying to stop brokens. One other interesting point she made was how broken varieties had revived some breeds, such as in Netherland Dwarfs, Polish and Havanas. Told me that membership in the Havana Club has skyrocketed once brokens were passed. Both Polish and ND numbers at shows had increased quite a bit as well. Made me go hmmm--- maybe this could be a good thing. I'm not opposed at all to new varieties, would love to see a good Opal Flemish, I've just seen how set in their ways the Flemish community is and think it would be an uphill battle. 

Rabbits are so plastic genetically, and they are shown based on phenotype, not genotype, so in theory a 'mutt' could show better than a rabbit that was purebred for 20 generations. Outcrossing is not a bad thing, and takes only a few generations to get back to whats considered 'purebred' in rabbits. I do have concerns about using Checkered Giants to introduce the broken gene, temperament can be one of the hardest things to breed out and change.


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## TinysMom (Apr 27, 2010)

*Bramblerose wrote: *


> Had an interesting conversation about this with a rabbit breeder friend this morning, and she had some very interesting points. First was that if folks were truly determined they could get the variety passed, they could bypass the specialty club completely and go straight to ARBA. They would of course have to work their fannies off on improving them and pray for open-minded judges at presentation, but in theory it could be done. I still think that the opposition would be really stalwart in trying to stop brokens. One other interesting point she made was how broken varieties had revived some breeds, such as in Netherland Dwarfs, Polish and Havanas. Told me that membership in the Havana Club has skyrocketed once brokens were passed. Both Polish and ND numbers at shows had increased quite a bit as well. Made me go hmmm--- maybe this could be a good thing. I'm not opposed at all to new varieties, would love to see a good Opal Flemish, *I've just seen how set in their ways the Flemish community is and think it would be an uphill battle*.
> 
> Rabbits are so plastic genetically, and they are shown based on phenotype, not genotype, so in theory a 'mutt' could show better than a rabbit that was purebred for 20 generations. Outcrossing is not a bad thing, and takes only a few generations to get back to whats considered 'purebred' in rabbits. *I do have concerns about using Checkered Giants to introduce the broken gene, temperament can be one of the hardest things to breed out and change.*


These are two of the key things I'm thinking of. 

I loved being a lionhead breeder because of the lionheads - but I hated all of the backbiting on some lists I was on. I don't want to go through that with the flemish.

I also am concerned about the temperaments since the CG were used. I would think that a few generations in you wouldn't see much of a problem but I don't know.

I have pretty much decided to focus on my light grays for now and try to get them up to size and keep their color good.

I think that working with the brokens in the holland lops will help me deal with my love of brokens...


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