# 3 weeks old passive kit



## FusedBrain (Feb 5, 2008)

Dear all,

I had a 3 weeks old kit from a litter of 4 that seemed to be passive for the past 2 days. They are still with their mother and suckling. The 3 others are active and jumping about while this little girl just sits away alone most of the time.

I picked it up a couple of times and found little poops in strand at its vent. Wasn't watery but a little sticky though. Basically I have hay & paper in the enclosure so I hope it wasn't any of these that is causing her to be ill. At this point I can't establish if she is ill or it is just her passive temperament.

Thanks in advance.

Fused


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## ra7751 (Feb 5, 2008)

That sounds like a weaning gut. Do you have access to any probiotics where you are located? Google "Bene-Bac" for an example of what I am talking about. I see that quite often in cottontails as they wean. Keep a close watch on the poops...you don't want to see mucus coming out. Basically the gut is starting to change from a baby gut to a more adult environment. This can cause some bacterial balance issues in the GI tract. Are the kits eating any solid food at all yet?


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## CorkysMom (Feb 5, 2008)

What kind of hay do they have access to? I leave mine w/ a good mix of grass hay and it seems to help. I also sometimes will give a lil oats every other day, thats seemed to help what lil soft poops I used to get...seems like some litters need that more than others.


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## FusedBrain (Feb 6, 2008)

Thanks guys. I know about benebac but I do not have access to them because most petshops are closed for the lunar new year. Is it alright if I give some yogurt?

I have given her 2 drops of Duphalac with the active ingredient of lactulose. I hope it would be ok since that's the best I can get hold of at the moment.

They have access to 2nd cut Tim hay at the moment. I have also provided them with a bowl of rabbit pellets but I am not too certain if they do take those pellets since mummy is still around to eat too.


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## ra7751 (Feb 6, 2008)

Do not use Duphalac or yogurt.Neither of those should ever be used in a rabbit. If I remember correctly, I think they call the Duphalac a prebiotic. It contains sugar and that is something any rabbit, but especially a weaning rabbit, should never have. And yogurt contains products that far offset any possibility of benefit. If you can't find anything else, see if you can find some non-dairy acidophilus powder. Many health food stores carry it. It won't take much since it's a baby rabbit.

I didn't want to go into too much detail and get people alarmed....but this could turn into a problem quickly. But here goes so you will have an idea about what is going on. In a baby rabbit, the beneficial bacteria grows in a neutral pH environment. As weaning approaches, the gut starts a quick transition to an adult gut environment...it turns acidic. In the quick conversion, the very delicate beneficial bacteria has a difficult time adjusting to the new situation. It starts to die. This starts a chain of events. The decaying bacteria becomes toxic. The die off allows harmful bacteria, most often clostridium or e coli, to grow. These bacteria are not good to have in the gut. The irritation caused by the toxins causes the body to attempt to protect itself by producing mucus. This condition is also very painful at later stages. It also causes quick dehydration in baby rabbits. I see this very condition in hand weaned wild cottontails...and the "21 day terror" as I call it is the reason many wildlife people won't work wild rabbits. It is known by various names depending on where you are. It is difficult to treat in babies...and not very easy in adults. I usually respond to this condition by aggressive supplemental hydration (sub-q or IV), gut support by using an appropriate probiotic containing Lactobacillus Casei (L Acidophilus will work in a pinch) and I give older rabbits an antibiotic...specifically metronidazole (flagyl). It is risky to use this drug in a baby but I have been forced to do so at times.

This rabbit needs a "ready gut". You need to make every effort to stabilize what is going on. The duphalac and yogurt would be the exact opposite of what you need for this rabbit. Try to find some acidophilus. Offer hay....alfalfa is OK if you have some. Keep a watch for dehydration...and make sure she stays warm.

Randy


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## FusedBrain (Feb 6, 2008)

Thanks a lot Randy. She has since stopped suckling and I have fed her water through a shringe. I guess it was my mistake using duphalac and yogurt.

She was NOT having diarhrea or soft stool. Her vent is very clean. And her tummy does NOT seem bloated as well. She is just inactive.

Based on all these symptoms I find it hard to diagnose the actual problem. Would bene-bac cause any harm if given to a kit that does not have a gut problem?

Please do not misunderstand me. I really appreciate your responses and I do not doubt your expertise.

She seemed very weak just now. I hope I don't get a dead kit when I get home later.

I was hoping to keep this little one...


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## FusedBrain (Feb 6, 2008)

I just got a few PROBIOTIC capsule tabs from the pharmacy. I hope they can be used. I will try mixing the powder with some water and give it to the little poor bunny if it is still alive when I reach home.


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## Pipp (Feb 6, 2008)

ray:

Babies are so delicate at this age. I hope s/he makes it, but once they stop being active like that, it always seems to spell big trouble no matter what you do. 

(And one of the twovets at my bunny clinic is an old-school guy who grew up ona rabbit farm and,at least when he started there, was prescribing both yogurt with antibiotics and lactulose for stasis, so it's not totally off the wall, just outdated thinking). 

Come on little baby!!



sas :clover:


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## Marietta (Feb 6, 2008)

Hi!   Just a small correction: Duphalac is the brand name (in Europe at least) of a human laxative, which contains 100% lactulose, it's not a probiotic.   In any case, lactulose is not to be given to the kit, either, it can cause severe problems to the baby intestinal tract. Lactulose is used only in GI stasis extreme cases, i.e. when nothing else works, on a vet's positive opinion, and it is, still, debated by a lot of people whether it's good or bad. I have used it once in the sole GI stasis case I faced with my dwarf hotot, when I had absolutely no other choice, as the whole GI stasis protocol (Mrs. D. Krempels' article, that is) hadn't produced any results for 14 days. Then I administered Duphalac (lactulose) and in a couple of minutes a 5X1.5 cm (!!!) poop emerged from my bun's but. This was blocking his intestines like a cork in a bottle neck. So, in my case, lactulose literally saved his life, but, I've read here and elsewhere also opinions against gut motility drugs. Because of this debate, I don't recommend anything, I just share my experience with lactulose.  Marietta


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## ra7751 (Feb 6, 2008)

I use Bene-Bac in baby cottontails all the time. I do hundreds of them each year. The guts of cottontails and domestics are identical. And this condition usually doesn't have a runny gut or grumbling stomach...they usually show just a little mucus in their poops and usually hunker down away from the other babies. That is a sign of some degree of pain. They don't move around much. Most of the times as this event matures, they will start becoming wobbly and move back and forth slightly.

Like Pipp said....the treatments using laxatives and yogurt have been around for years and were considered correct until recently. It's still in many of the reference manuals used by vets (yep...even the best vets have to look in a book....what do you think they are doing when they say "I'll be right back"?). The problem with laxatives are that they can sometimes cause severe contractions (similar to the gut motility drugs which cause so many problems) and they also dehydrate which is not what you want in a rabbit with a digestive problem. Most yogurt contains sugar and dairy products which are not appropriate for a rabbit. And also as Pipp mentioned, once they slow down and isolate themselves, it's usually nota good thing.

And like Marietta mentioned and I stated in my earlier post....I think duphalac is considered a *pre*-biotic. My issue with using laxatives like these and stuff like cat hairball gels is that work from the wrong end. In a stasis/ileus event (which this particular event is not) things like this tend to dehydrate and compact an immovable object and that is the last thing you need. An enema, as risky as it is, attacks from the other end....the one where the impaction needs to go.

As I mentioned, I use the Bene-Bac (or other appropriate probiotics) in weaning cottontails as a routine part of their husbandry. I use it to control the conversion of the pH as wean approaches. Cottontails usually wean about 21 days. I start them on a small amount of probiotic about 10 days old and increase the amount every day until they wean...and then take several days to remove the probiotic. This allows me to slow the conversion process at wean as it allows time for the beneficial bacteria adapt to the changing climate...and it made my success rate skyrocket. I will be using other products in test groups this upcoming season. The lessons learned from the cottontails are often put into my protocols for domestics.

Hope the little girl pulls thru this.

Randy


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## FusedBrain (Feb 6, 2008)

I just gave little girl probiotic powder plus warm water. Her condition does not look too good. I do not expect much. Hope she'll still be ok when I wake in the morning. I will go hunting for bene-bac again. Hope she pulls through.


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## FusedBrain (Feb 7, 2008)

Hi all,

With a wreaked heart, I would like to inform all of you that the litle girl just passed. I was unable to get hold of Bene-bac because all the petshops I went to was closed because today is the 1st day of the chinese lunar new year. I hope this problem does not repeat itself with the other kits.

This is 2 days before I notice her being passive:







Few hours before she died:


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## BlueGiants (Feb 7, 2008)

Awww, I'm sorry she didn't make it. We have kits that just fail to thrive... and there doesn't seem to be anything that helps. Thanks for trying so hard for her.


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## TinysMom (Feb 7, 2008)

I'm so sorry for your loss......she was beautiful.

Amazing how they can steal your heart even at such a young age - isn't it?

Peg


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## SnowyShiloh (Feb 7, 2008)

I'm really sorry to hear that, poor baby! She was such a cutie. You did everything you could to help her though


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