# Mixing Torts into Siamese Smoke/Sable lines?



## Sabine (Oct 20, 2010)

I have been trying to get some seal points to add to my breeding program but have had very little luck. There may be a chance that I could get hold of some good quality torts though. 
I understand that by mixing them with my siamese sable or smoke (introducing the ee gene)I should eventually get seal points or bluepoints although it may take more than one generation depending on what they are carrying. 
Is there anything that speaks against it ?


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## Shaded Night Rabbitry (Oct 20, 2010)

Just that it's going to aid in the creation of our seal points. Since you're waaay over there in europe, I'm going to assume it's the same, and that your seal point = our sable point.
And our seal point = an unshowable super dark seal point for you.

I'm going to use, what I assume, is the terminology over there. Be careful when pulling seal points out of tort x sable. You're likely to get the really dark ones, that I've been told you can't show over there. 

Now, it all depends on the genetics. If you can find a tort carrying rew, then it would be easy to start pulling the shadeds out of it. But be careful! =3 Seals and dark seal points are not so much fun to fight.


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## Sabine (Oct 20, 2010)

I don't know yet what the torts carry but the breeder was recommended to me for her nice seal(sable) points. So I expect she must mix around a good bit herself.


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## Sabine (Oct 20, 2010)

P.S.
Megan, when you say dark sable/seal points, do you mean just dark points or dark as in a bit smutty all over?


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## lelanatty (Oct 20, 2010)

*Sabine wrote: *


> P.S.
> Megan, when you say dark sable/seal points, do you mean just dark points or dark as in a bit smutty all over?


She meansvery dark as in you would probably think they were blacks. They are just very dark all over.


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## Sabine (Oct 21, 2010)

*lelanatty wrote: *


> *Sabine wrote: *
> 
> 
> > P.S.
> ...


Oh, that doesn't sound very attractive


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## Shaded Night Rabbitry (Oct 21, 2010)

Our Sable Point (what I believe is your seal point)






Our Seal Point (which isn't a term that most US breeders seem to understand.)





Our Siamese Sable (same?) (sorry, she's light in the pic. she had bad color as a junior, but is getting a FANTASTIC senior coat in!)





Our Seal (same?)


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## Shaded Night Rabbitry (Oct 21, 2010)

It's the same as putting black into sable points, I guess. (which is a current project of mine.)

You just REALLY have to watch for the smutty/dark sable points, like above. In the US they can be shown (sometimes faulted, sometimes not). I've heard from Phil Batey over there that you cannot show them. But ireland may be completely different. (I can't remember where he's from.)

Breed the tort to a sable. You're likely to get all blacks that generation. Take a black and breed it to a sable, and another black, and take it to the tort. 
Well, from there on out it's a rather round about way... It'll probably take you three generatiosn, maybe four, to pull out sable points. Not only do you have to get the non-extension in there, you have to bicker with canceling out the tort's full color. x.x; confusing, eh?

OR, maybe this tort already carries for shaded! Now THAT would be easy!


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## Sabine (Oct 21, 2010)

Thanks for the pictures. It's definitely the Sable Point I'm after and I think this is the one showable. I adore the one in the picture. Is he/she yours? I want!!!!!
When I asked UK breeders for sable point the kept referring to them as seal points so I changed the terminology. I must have a look at some UK sites to find an example of what "we" call seal point. I haven't heard back from the breeder who offered me the torts. It's just so difficult to get something if you have anything specific in mind.


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## Sabine (Oct 21, 2010)

*Shaded Night Rabbitry wrote: *


> It's the same as putting black into sable points, I guess. (which is a current project of mine.)
> 
> You just REALLY have to watch for the smutty/dark sable points, like above. In the US they can be shown (sometimes faulted, sometimes not). I've heard from Phil Batey over there that you cannot show them. But ireland may be completely different. (I can't remember where he's from.)
> 
> ...


Phil Batey is from the UK. I love his site and use it for reference a lot. He only uses the term Sealpoint and describes it as aaB-c[sup]chl[/sup]cD-ee (so I guess that's your sable point)
We have absolutely nothing here in Ireland as regards rabbit shows. We only just recently set up an Irish Rabbit Club which is still in its infancy.
I do hope the breeder's torts carry chl which is likely as she also shows sable points.


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## Shaded Night Rabbitry (Oct 21, 2010)

I was talking to him the other day on the dwarf forums. =3 I actually enjoy him. xD

Yeah; that's where my term of "your seal point" came from. I figured since it's over there, and the Irish Rabbit Club is probably going to base their standards on the UK ones. 

=3 Yes, that sable point was mine. I LOOOVED her. But I traded her away for a chinchilla doe. However, my friend still has her. I'm hoping she'll bring her down this next week to breed her to daddy, and start some linebreeding going on. She was such a pretty little baby. And rediculously clean, too!


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## Sabine (Oct 21, 2010)

We will be using the same standards as the BRC but have only just applied for affiliation with them.
To get anything decent most of us Irish breeders will have to go to the UK or at least Northern Ireland.
Are there many UK breeders on the dwarf forum? I find the UK forums very quiet.


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## Shaded Night Rabbitry (Oct 21, 2010)

No, there's only one if I recall correctly.
I think the best way to go about getting awesome ND's into Ireland would be to import from Phil Batey, or Rabbiminimus (not sure where they are?) or Theo Jansen.
But I don't know the whole import rules in Ireland, sooo. =/


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## Sabine (Oct 21, 2010)

Importing is no problem. In theory you'll have to have documentation but customs rarely check. I will get the transport papers this time just to be on the safe side.


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