# How dangerous are pinworms?



## Cirlin-rah (Mar 27, 2013)

I just cleaned the litterbox & found worms in my grey eyed gentleman's excrement. Google tells me they are likely pinworms, which I am reading up on now. The articles I found are helpful but academic. I'd like to hear your personal stories. Specifically wondering:

1. Would you worry? Have you lost anyone from pinworms?
2. What is the course of treatment like? How long?
3: How expensive is it? Do vets generally ask you to pay a lump sum or can a payment plan be worked out? I have a steady job & can pay, it will just take a while since my job is minimum wage.
4. Worms can cross-contaminate species sometimes. Has anyone gotten pinworms from their rabbits? If so did you die from it?
5. What is a safe product I can use to disinfect the litter box?

I have a properly labeled sample & am going to call the vet first thing in the morning. I'm not too worried at the moment because Harrow is eating & drinking normally. His poo is normal also. I have seen no change in his energy or mental state. I've heard loud-as-heck tummy gurgles, though.

He is an inside rabbit. I took him outside once for 10 minutes but it frightened him so we came back in. That is the only way I can surmise that he would have gotten them but even so it seems unlikely.

*

One last thing: I admire my vets & their waiting period has never been long. Critter Repair in Warrington Pennsylvania, guys. If anyone's in my area, this is who you should go to. These vets understand rabbits very well. My mini lop died of fly strike. Was euthanized in my arms. A few days later I received a 'sorry for your loss' card that was signed by everyone there & made me cry again. They didn't have to do that. They're A & B the C of D.


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## Imbrium (Mar 27, 2013)

I don't know much about pinworms, but I know they're definitely contagious and can be spread to humans so you should be very cautious about that... I also know they're easy to treat and I've never heard of them being fatal, at least in humans (apparently, a worst-case scenario if they go untreated in a rabbit is stasis, which could be deadly if untreated).

as for payment plans, it varies from vet to vet but most will allow you to set up a payment plan as long as you make arrangements with them *before* your appointment.

apparently pinworms in rabbits are normally treated with piperazine, fenbendazole (Panacur) or oxyfenbendazole. cost is probably about the same as if you took an animal in for a routine infection that simply required a round of broad-spectrum antibiotics to treat - for my vet, that's about $65 total (including the exam fee, the medication cost and any taxes or whatever). cost varies by the medication and the individual vet, of course, but it should be in that general ballpark.

from http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/GI_diseases/Parasitic_diseases/Nem_gen/Nematodes.htm
"[FONT=&quot]The presence of thick brown threads of mucus in the droppings can be an indication for the presence of intestinal worms. When reaching a peak number, they cause pain and the mass of live and dead adult worms may lead to cecal impaction, accompanied by stasis, severe pain and gas formation. This is independent from the type of worm (pinworm or tapeworm) in rabbits."[/FONT]

in other words, if he's eating and looks normal, there's no need to worry... but definitely get him into the vet for meds so that things won't progress to the dangerous stage.

once you find out from the vet for sure what type of worm it is, I recommend calling your human doctor, explaining that your rabbit is being treated for whatever type of worm and ask if they can call in a prescription for something (for everyone in your household if you don't live alone) just in case you've been exposed - there's a decent chance you'll be able to get a prescription out of them without having to take the time/spend the money to go in for an actual appointment, since a vet will have already given a diagnosis and you'd only be getting the medication as a precaution.


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## Imbrium (Mar 27, 2013)

actually, from some digging around, it appears that worming medications that are safe for rabbits can be purchased without a prescription from a local feed store, which I can virtually guarantee would be cheaper than buying them from the vet.

http://amayesingrabbitry.weebly.com/treating-for-parasites.html has more detailed information on what to use for rabbits, but the gist of it is that Safeguard paste (fenbendazole, aka Panacur) for horses is what you're likely to find at a feed store and it's effective on rabbits. the site says to "Put a ball of paste about the size of a pea (5-6mm or 1/4 inch dia) in the rabbits mouth."

I would still find out if you could drop off the sample with your vet just to get a more reliable diagnosis than one can obtain through google... but having the vet test a sample that's been dropped off should be cheaper than their exam fee (and they'd probably charge you for the testing in addition to the exam fee if you brought him in anyway).

once you have a diagnosis, ask if your vet can give you a list of viable/safe medications and dosage amounts (if they insist on knowing why/trying to steer you into buying from them, just explain that you're on a very tight budget and would like to be able to shop around to find the best price for the medication).

while I have no reason to distrust the medication/dosage info I've dug up and I KNOW panacur is safe for rabbits, I don't know for a fact that the other medications definitely are (in case you can't find panacur) and I would feel more comfortable if you got precise dosage information as well as info on how often/how long to give it for from a qualified vet... and it's not like they'll charge you for that information, so it definitely can't hurt to double-check.


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## Cirlin-rah (Mar 27, 2013)

Thank you very kindly for your quick reply.

Yes, I read that they are species-jumpers. Ugh. Admittedly, I am far from diligent when it comes to washing my hands! But I will be mindful & start that habit. I do live with some humans & a dog. It had not occurred to me to call my doctor but that is a good idea; I will do that tomorrow as well.

On payment plans: Didn't think of that either. I will talk to them about it. It's $45 for a checkup here & I can definitely swing that. How much would you recommend stashing for an emergency vet fund?

That was a good article. I hadn't noticed any brown threads but I had noticed the dung coming out wetter/mildly sticky. I just thought that was normal. Then again his digestive system, pardon the pun, is ****ty. What comes out often varies wildly even though his diet doesn't but on the whole looks healthy.


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## Cirlin-rah (Mar 27, 2013)

Oh, lovely, another article. Thanks! *hug* Y'know what? My coworker, who gave me the rabbit, also owns a horse. Maybe she has some Safeguard paste lying around. I'll ask my vet about it first, though. I'd like a list anyway for future reference.

I don't see why they wouldn't take the sample. It's a generous size & comes with his name/date of collection/notes on behavior. ...Ha, I sound like a salesman.


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## I_heart_Fraggles (Mar 28, 2013)

You want some equine panacur which is about 15 dollars. I have dealt with this myself and my girl did have stasis. I would get the checkup just to make sure nothing else is going on but you can buy the panacur at a feedstore or online. Just a little tiny bit on the tip of some hay will get rid of the worms.


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## Imbrium (Mar 28, 2013)

Cirlin-rah said:


> I do live with some humans & a dog. It had not occurred to me to call my doctor but that is a good idea; I will do that tomorrow as well.
> 
> On payment plans: Didn't think of that either. I will talk to them about it. It's $45 for a checkup here & I can definitely swing that. How much would you recommend stashing for an emergency vet fund?



have you checked the dog's poop lately? it's possible that the rabbit got worms from the dog (for example, dog poops outside but some of the worms stick to its butt. dog then rubs it's butt on the carpet when you aren't looking. the rabbit walks on the carpet and then licks his paws, ingesting the worms. I would ask the vet about preventative meds for your dog even if you're able to confirm that you don't see worms in his poop for the same reason it would be a good idea to get meds for the human members of the household - like with fleas, you want to treat everyone and everything at once to prevent the problem from popping back up in a month or whatever.

for an emergency fund, I generally recommend having at least $300-500 stashed away for unexpected vet bills. if you don't have an emergency fund at all right now, then I would try to put like $20 of each paycheck into an emergency fund until you have a decent sum saved up.

because you don't have an emergency fund saved up at this point and you're on a bit of a tight budget, you might look into carecredit - http://www.carecredit.com/vetmed/ ... you'll want to double check, but it doesn't appear to cost you anything if you're not using it (ie an annual fee or something), so you could potentially sign up for it and get the card now so that you'd have it ready to go if an emergency came up and it wouldn't cost you a thing if you ended up never using it. it works like a credit card, except that it's only for vet stuff (and human medical stuff... I'm not sure if it's always both or if you have to sign up for both separately). it looks like it's possible to avoid paying any interest if you pay back the full amount within a certain time-frame and even if you do end up paying interest, it's supposedly lower than what normal credit cards typically charge.

of course, if your vet's got great payment plan options, you may decide carecredit is unnecessary... or you might do some research on it and decide against it... but I just wanted to mention it as one of your options to help manage unexpected vet bills.



Cirlin-rah said:


> Then again his digestive system, pardon the pun, is ****ty. What comes out often varies wildly even though his diet doesn't but on the whole looks healthy.



can you describe his diet in detail for me (pellet brand, amount of pellets per day, types/amounts/frequency of veggies, fruits, treats given, etc.), as well as give me as many specifics as possible about his digestive issues/poop irregularities?

healthy rabbits are typically *very* regular in terms of their digestive system and the vast majority of rabbits do quite well on the "standard" dietary recommendations. however, like some people, some bunnies have more sensitive/delicate digestive systems and will experience symptoms like you mentioned... which can almost always be remedied via diet changes.

if you can give me more information, then I can offer suggestions on how to tailor your rabbit's diet (and I'm sure Jenny (aka Jbun) will chime in at some point as well, since she has a LOT of experience with bunnies that have sensitive digestive systems).


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## JBun (Mar 28, 2013)

Yeah, I was wondering about the poop thing too. It's going to depend some on whether he has always had irregular type poops, or if it is a more recent occurrence, as that could entirely have to do with the pinworms. Basically rabbit poops should always look the same. Fecals should look like cocoa puffs, all generally the same size and a fiberous consistancy that crumbles apart when fresh. Cecals should look like a blackberry or cluster of grapes, though you should hardly ever, or never see them.


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## missyscove (Mar 28, 2013)

The pinworm that affects rabbits is actually host specific meaning it only affects rabbits.
http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/exo...ls/rabbits/parasitic_diseases_of_rabbits.html
This is assuming you've correctly identified your parasite. I'd recommend a vet appointment for a checkup though as the feces you're describing doesn't sound normal. Dewormers should be pretty cheap. 
Yes, a horse dewormer may be effective, but it is tricky to take medication labeled for horses and dosed for such a large animal and dose it appropriately for a tiny rabbit, so it's not something I personally recommend.


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## Imbrium (Mar 28, 2013)

missyscove said:


> The pinworm that affects rabbits is actually host specific meaning it only affects rabbits.
> http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/exo...ls/rabbits/parasitic_diseases_of_rabbits.html
> This is assuming you've correctly identified your parasite.



huh. that makes it particularly curious that he managed to get it, if that is indeed the parasite he has.


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## Cirlin-rah (Mar 28, 2013)

The vet appointment is for 2 this afternoon.

Well, good to know that it's host specific! Still... you know how people have this mindless, irrational fear/hatred of spiders? I kind of feel that way about parasites. They disgust me on some primal level that I've never been able to shake. I'd prefer to get into the hand-washing habit anyway & take a few excessive cautions.

I'll see what the vet says about dewormers. You bring up a fine point about size, and me being a nooblet at this I can easily see myself messing something up.


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## Bunnylova4eva (Mar 28, 2013)

Ripley had pinworms about 1 years ago. I saw them in the poop and literally freaked. out. I hurried him to the vet first thing in the morning to find out that they {pinworms} are species specific and some people don't even treat their buns for it. But, it is especially a good idea if you see lethargy, loss of appetite, etc. or, if you're life me and hate the idea of your bunny having parasites. I opted the medication route and got some panacur. I think it was dosed something like one dose every 2 weeks or something like that. I forget exactly. They ran a fecal the first time, then again after he was all done on Panacur to make sure they caught everything.


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## Cirlin-rah (Mar 28, 2013)

I haven't checked the dog's poop lately, but I will the next time she goes out. The two don't really socialize because the dog is wary of Harrow, but they have been in the same area/same floor multiple times before.

$300-$500 is around the same figure I was thinking too. I feel very bad about not having one currently but I was just planning on treating him with kid-gloves until I'd had that figure saved up. Lesson learned that stuff can happen unexpectedly. I feel negligent but I'm not going to send him back to the SPCA just for lack of something I can get by being patient!

You are so awesome for sending me all these links, y'know? I will look into this care credit straightaway. The appointment has been scheduled for 2 this afternoon & the receptionist said it shouldn't be too expensive (this time around!), but it sounds like a great service.

His diet is Oxbow Basic T pellets. Treats are the All Living Things brand papaya bites. (no more than 2 a day, which I feel I have to give him to help with his shedding) I wanted him to have hay for a more rounded diet but could never get him interested in it & wasted most of what I bought. Sometimes he gets a few bites of banana or a baby carrot, some celery too whenever we have it because that's just water anyway. He loves celery almost as much as he loves papaya, which is really cool.

Here's the full poo history:

When I received him there was cause for concern. He was leaving 2 inch long cecals on the ground, constantly. I would find 3 in a a period of an hour or so. Ridiculous! At that point he was eating a colorful brand of cheap food with seeds in it. I changed his diet & cecals stopped being an issue, although occasionally I still find one in the box. He had a few stomachaches when he was new here, but nothing we needed to see a vet over.

I've seen some poos that are so small they fall through the holes in the litter scooper, but those are either expelled in one go, then his poo returns to big & healthy, or they are mixed in with healthy poos. Can't figure those out. The size also varies from large & healthy to medium & healthy. Now 'tis the season for shedding so there's clumped fur coming out in it too.

I hear his stomach gurgling pretty constantly. I've watched the area & it looks like something's moving around in there but whenever I touch it he doesn't seem to care one way or the other. This has always happened with him & it would worry me but he's never complained about it. But I think he is more sensitive than any of our other buns ever were. (Our deceased Himalayan mix was like a vacuum cleaner & she never got so much as a tummy ache!)

He also pees a lot of calcium. ...The more I type this the worse I feel about myself. *sigh* Guess I should note for my own sanity that he happily tooth-purrs whenever I pet him & has always been in good spirits.


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## Cirlin-rah (Mar 28, 2013)

His poo has always been inconsistent. It's not a recent thing.

From the comment to Imbrium:

When I received him he was leaving 2 inch long cecals on the ground. I would find 3 in a a period of an hour or so. Ridiculous! At that point he was eating a colorful brand of cheap food with seeds in it. I changed his diet & cecals stopped being an issue, although occasionally I still find one in the box. He had a few stomachaches when he was new here, but nothing we needed to see a vet over.

Some poos are so small they fall through the holes in the litter scooper, but those are either expelled in one go, then his poo returns to big & healthy, or they are mixed in with healthy poos. Can't figure those out. The size of the others also varies from large & healthy to medium & healthy. Now 'tis the season for shedding so there's clumped fur coming out in it too.

I hear his stomach gurgling pretty constantly. I've watched the area & it looks like something's moving around in there but whenever I touch it he doesn't seem to care. This has always happened with him & it would worry me but he's never complained about it. But I think he is more sensitive than any of our other buns ever were.

He also pees a lot of calcium. ...The more I type this the worse I feel about myself.


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## Cirlin-rah (Mar 28, 2013)

Why on earth would some opt not to treat worms? They breed prolifically & always have the potential to reach danger-levels. I have a _thing_ about parasites, ugh.


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## Cirlin-rah (Mar 28, 2013)

Forgot to mention that he gets one scoop of pellets per day, but our scooper is big. I feed him in the morning & It's usually almost gone by the next morning.


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## JBun (Mar 28, 2013)

Soft bowel sounds coming from a rabbit are normal, but loud gurgling isn't normal and is an indication that something is wrong in your rabbit's digestive system. I didn't used to realize how serious it was until my rabbit that I could hear loud gurgling sounds from, got GI stasis, and didn't survive it. She didn't have any problems, acted normal for months. I didn't realize the odd shaped poops meant something was wrong, so I didn't think anything about it and never changed her diet, cause I didn't realize that I needed to or how bad it really was. The loud gurgling means there is an imbalance of bacteria in your rabbits gut, and with rabbits, that is not good. 

http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/ileus.html

With your rabbit having small poops and large poops, it can be a couple things. If it doesn't happen all the time, and just happens and then clears up and the poops are normal, then these small poops indicate a gut slowdown(or stasis), that can potentially lead to a blockage. And with your rabbit getting little to no hay, this is something that can easily happen. These sites have pictures of what normal and abnormal rabbit poop looks like.

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/GI_diseases/drop/Drp_en.htm
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/GI_diseases/Bunny_201.pdf


If the small and large poops is a normal occurrence and always happens, then you may have a rabbit with megacolon. It's a digestive disorder that has to do with damage to the nerves in the bowel. It has many causes, including genetic with spotted rabbits. I have two megacolon rabbits. One has it genetically, the other developed it after getting stasis. Both have very sensitive digesive systems and get zero treats(no sugars, starches, carbs). One of them can't even have pellets. They do get non cruciferous and non sugary veggies. They have to have very strict diets, or there is a great risk they will get stasis.

Whichever cause of the small poops, that your rabbit has I would suggest eliminating treats from his diet. Nothing sugar, no carrots, celery is ok though, and other non sugary veggies. Your rabbit really needs hay as well. I can understand having a rabbit that won't eat hay well. Sometimes a reason a rabbit may not eat hay is if they are getting too many pellets. Do you free feed pellets or do you limit them, and if so, what amount do you give each day, and about how much do you think your rabbit weighs? 

The pics are of my megacolon rabbits poop. The first pic is normal poop for my one rabbit, especially when he is out running around, that's when it gets the most irregular looking, like this. The second pic is what my other rabbits poop normally looks like all the time.


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## JBun (Mar 28, 2013)

It sounds like you are feeding unlimited pellets, and that is probably the reason that your rabbit isn't eating hay. For rabbits prone to digestive issues, hay is very important for them to be eating, to prevent them from getting GI stasis. I would suggest cutting back on the pellet amount and adding a grass hay, like timothy, orchard, coastal, bermuda, into your rabbits diet. I think the suggested amount on the oxbow adult food is 1/8 cup for 1-3 lb, 1/4 cup 4-8 lbs. It's also best to split the feedings up into a morning and evening feeding, if possible. If you reduce the amount of pellets, he will most likely start eating hay. Just making these diet changes, should get the digestive problems under control. If changing the diet doesn't stop the gurgling, you may also have to add some probiotics, like probios or benebac gel, to restore the balance of good bacteria in the gut.


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## Imbrium (Mar 28, 2013)

Cirlin-rah said:


> I haven't checked the dog's poop lately, but I will the next time she goes out. The two don't really socialize because the dog is wary of Harrow, but they have been in the same area/same floor multiple times before.
> Disregard what I said about the dog - I wasn't aware that the pinworms rabbits get are species-specific, meaning he couldn't have gotten them from or given them to your dog
> 
> $300-$500 is around the same figure I was thinking too. I feel very bad about not having one currently but I was just planning on treating him with kid-gloves until I'd had that figure saved up. Lesson learned that stuff can happen unexpectedly. I feel negligent but I'm not going to send him back to the SPCA just for lack of something I can get by being patient!
> ...



as far as diet changes go... hay is SO important ><

my bunnies were picky little b*tches about hay when it came time to wean them off alfalfa. I tried SO many different hays and was on the verge of giving up when I finally found one they liked. if you'd be comfortable PMing me your address, I'd be happy to send you samples of a BUNCH of different hays that I've got sitting around so you could hopefully find one he'll eat without having to buy (and get stuck with) large amounts of hay that he refuses to touch. I can also send you some probiotics to try out to see if those help.

as Jenny said, you definitely want to strictly limit his pellet intake.

here's what I recommend:
~ get hay samples from me; cut back on pellets quite a bit and keep trying different hays until (hopefully) you find one he likes. also, dose him with the probiotics and cut ALL fruit, treats and carrots from his diet.
~ if you do all that and get him eating a good amount of hay and things clear up, you can attempt to reintroduce treats to figure out if those are the problem or if it was just too many pellets/not enough hay.
~ if things DON'T clear up after the first steps, cut ALL veggies from his diet for a few days to a week. if that works, gradually re-introduce veggies one at a time in small quantities with a few days in between each veggie (like if you were just starting him on veggies for the first time) - basically, trial and error to find out if it's all veggies or only specific veggies causing the problems. if you start veggies again, start with the ones that tend to be well-tolerated like cilantro, dark leaf lettuces and other low calcium/low OA leafy greens.
~ if you cut out veggies and the problems continue, then continue to not give veggies AND gradually reduce his pellet intake until either the problems are resolved or you're not feeding any pellets at all.
~ if not feeding pellets works, you have two options... you can try sherwood forest rabbit food, which doesn't have the bit of added sugars that oxbow does and you can try gradually re-introducing veggies under the theory that the pellets were the problem (obviously, you don't want to do both at once, since then if the problems return you won't know which caused it). if you try the sherwood, you'll want to gradually wean him onto them (basically, the same thing as transitioning between two pellets except that you wouldn't be feeding him the old pellets since you already weaned him off of those).
~ if you have him on a diet of only hay and water and you're giving him probiotics and the problems still continue, then you've exhausted my expertise on the subject and hopefully someone else will be able to shed some light on things. granted, the reason I don't know what else to try at that point is because I've never heard of a rabbit with an overly-sensitive tummy who didn't improve by the time they reached the "hay and water diet" point.

edit:


Cirlin-rah said:


> Why on earth would some opt not to treat worms? They breed prolifically & always have the potential to reach danger-levels. I have a _thing_ about parasites, ugh.



oh, and I agree 100%! I'd freak the hell out and rush to the doctor ASAP if there were squirmy things living in MY intestines, even if they supposedly weren't actually hurting me because, you know, "eww, gross!!". if I wouldn't tolerate that crap living in my intestines, how could I ever ask my pets to?


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## missyscove (Mar 28, 2013)

There are actually some very valid theories (e.g. the "hygeine hypothesis") that our decreased parasite load increases the likelihood for things like allergies. The same immunogloubulins (IgE) responsible for fighting off the parasites are what go awry and start fighting off things that aren't actually harmful which leads to allergies. 
In most cases the load of pinworms in a rabbit isn't enough to cause any real harm and since they are species specific they don't pose a danger to human health (whereas there are other parasites that our pets can get that do pose a real harm to humans). 

That said, if I saw worms in my rabbit's litter box, I'd deworm them too.


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## Imbrium (Mar 28, 2013)

hygiene hypothesis or not, I don't want squirmy wormies in me, lol!

I'm a good girl about not messing around with antibiotics, for me or for pets, and always finishing the full course because resistant strains are freaking scary... and I make it a point to not buy "antibacterial" everything because a) I have an immune system for a reason, b) with proper hand washing techniques, non-antibacterial soap kills germs just as well and c) I'm well aware of what happens with the .01% that few people ever think about when they see that something kills "99.9%" of germs... but I draw the line at worms. let my immune system stay busy taking care of things that are invisible to the naked eye and give me drugs to kill the crap out of anything big enough for me to see!


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## majorv (Mar 28, 2013)

Do you have flies in the house? Sometimes flies will lay eggs in the poop, especially if it gets soft from urine. The resulting worms/maggots are small and white. It doesn't necessarily mean your rabbit has worms though. Look at fresh poop and check in it for worms, and if so, then you may need to get it checked out. 

If you do need fenbendazole, Safeguard also comes in a 10% suspension liquid for goats, and at our local feed store costs $20. It works for rabbits also and the vet would be able to calculate the dosage.


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## Cirlin-rah (Mar 28, 2013)

Flies should be coming along any day now. We've finally started to have lovely weather, yay! We went to the vet, they were indeed pinworms. I'm so glad they weren't maggots-- had an experience with myiasis that left suffering & emotional scars. Got some medicine called 'Panacur'. 2 doses was $10.90. I'm amazed it was that cheap.


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## Imbrium (Mar 28, 2013)

oh, wow, that IS cheap! that's excellent news - he should be back in good shape in no time 

if flies are going to be showing up soon, then given his digestion issues, I strongly recommend that you do a "bootie check" 1-2x a day - make sure his bottom is clean and dry at all times so that flies won't have any interest in him! fly strike is a horrible thing to have to deal with ><


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## Cirlin-rah (Mar 29, 2013)

I had never heard of megacolon. Thankfully he doesn't have that. The vet was satisfied with the ratio of large to small & also said that the sample I brought in was a very healthy one. She also thoroughly examined his tummy, but of course he wasn't gurgling at all when we went in. Thanks, Harrow, that's very unhelpful.

Does megacolon influence other areas of the rabbit's life like playtime?

I will take your diet advice as soon as I procure some hay! Thank you! It sounds obvious but I'm not very good at thinking of obvious things. He's 6 & 1/2 lbs so he'd get 1/4 cup & ...unlimited?... hay?


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## Cirlin-rah (Mar 29, 2013)

Yes! The whole visit was $74. For a thorough exam, meds & smear. I was concerned that it might be several hundred, but $74 doesn't require me to pay in installments.

Also a resounding yes on the bootie check. I'm a pretty laid-back person in general, but I'm very overprotective about this one aspect of his life. Because never again do I want to go through that.


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## Cirlin-rah (Mar 29, 2013)

That's what the vet said too, but I can't wrap my mind around something as prolific a breeder/feeder as worms being asymptomatic.  Apparently most people buy the treatment for their own peace of mind; it has nothing to do with the rabbit's health, as you said. & this may not eradicate them but it should significantly decimate the population. I'm ok with that, every little bit helps.

'can't wrap my mind around it'... that's bad logic, there. Just because I can't conceive it doesn't mean it's false. But... eh.


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## Cirlin-rah (Mar 29, 2013)

Good to know about the papaya. I do see poo strung together with hair, but few & far between & I'm brushing him regularly. I will indeed switch to Oxbow. I think I saw some in the store the other day.

Goodness, really?! I'd be comfortable PMing you, certainly. Your generosity astounds me, though! Is there anything I can send in return? Thank you for the offer of macrobiotics as well, but those are unnecessary.

I've printed out your & JBun's diet advice & tucked it under his food-tub for quick reference. I am one happy puppy right now.


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## Imbrium (Mar 29, 2013)

Cirlin-rah said:


> Also a resounding yes on the bootie check. I'm a pretty laid-back person in general, but I'm very overprotective about this one aspect of his life. Because never again do I want to go through that.



have you had to deal with flystrike before? If so, I'm sorry to hear that - it can be VERY scary! I'm paranoid about it as well... had a couple flies get in the house and I killed those little b*stards asap but I've been doing bootie checks 2-3x a day even though my vet assures me that flies won't bother my babies if they're clean and dry.

I had a bunny when I was nine that got a cut on his shoulder... maybe an inch long and not very deep, so we didn't take him to the vet or anything - we just put plain neosporin on it a couple times a day. I guess we were still letting him in the back yard for daily exercise even with the cut. one evening, a few hours after he'd been outside, we noticed the cut turning black and looking horrible... mom rushed him to an emergency vet and it turned out a fly had laid eggs in his cut, the poor guy! they said he probably would've died if she hadn't brought him in that night. luckily, the vets fixed him up and gave us some ointment and stuff and he was all better after the cut finished healing.

and yes, unlimited hay... ideally, a bunny should eat an amount of hay equal to or larger than the volume of their own body each day.


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## missyscove (Mar 29, 2013)

There are actually quite a few parasites that are species specific. It's awkward to explain to someone that no, they did not get lice from their dog because dogs get a different parasite than we do. 

If you want to reply to one specific person, use the "quote" button to quote them or use their name rather than just posting several times in succession, it'll make it more clear that you're responding to a specific post.


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## Cirlin-rah (Mar 30, 2013)

Missycove- I can understand species-specific parasites, after all, there are species-specific viruses, but it baffles me that somehow these things are not harmful.

And thanks for the tip! Sorry about being confusing.


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## Imbrium (Mar 30, 2013)

ok, I hope I didn't procrastinate too long and miss the mailman showing up today, since I put in a request for a package pick-up and have the box on the porch now... he comes somewhere between 9:30 and 10:30 I think and I got it out there around 9:50. if I missed him, I'll just go to the mini post-office a couple blocks away.

you are getting samples of TWELVE different hays, because that's how freaking many I had to go through to finally find one that my stupid adorable bunnies would actually eat (now that I've gathered all of them up and actually counted them, I'm remembering what an ordeal we went through over hay and shaking my fist at the **** bunnies). if he won't eat anything in that box, then I dunno what to tell you.

oh, and as a heads-up... I may be nice enough to send hay samples, but I'm NOT nice enough to sit there and pick all of the **** oats out of the **** oat hay, lol. you'll have to do that before you feed it (I wrote a reminder on the bags, too).

with the probiotic, one tube = one dose. give two doses, three days apart (package should be there monday, so one dose monday and one dose thursday). there's four doses in there total, so you can give another a week from thursday and then a week after that if you think it's helping/he needs a booster dose.


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## Imbrium (Mar 30, 2013)

oh, and your best bet is probably the sierra valley hays, which I've found are fresher than Oxbow... and a lot cheaper, too. the orchard/alfalfa blend (80%/20%) is what my brats eat. rabbits over 7 mos aren't really supposed to have alfalfa 'cause of the calories and such, but it's only 20% and that is literally the ONLY hay mine will eat - try to get him to eat one of the other kinds before you resort to that stuff (though if you have success with another kind, you can give him a little of the orchard/alfalfa as a treat from time to time to use it up if he likes it).

here's the site for sierra valley - http://www.sierravalleyhay.com/
unfortunately, you live in one of the states where it's more expensive ><

if you strike out with everything I sent, the one hay I never got around to trying is bluegrass... http://www.kmshayloft.com/hay/ sells it


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## Imbrium (Mar 30, 2013)

sweet! the package disappeared and now I don't have to go to the post office


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## Cirlin-rah (Apr 1, 2013)

I'm glad your little bun got better. Mine didn't.

I had a mini rex (Jessie), a Himalayan mix (Snuggles) & a mini lop (Pancakes). All were indoor rabbits, but we had a hutch so they could get some sun in the springtime. Snuggles went off her food... Pan was always a bubbly, happy-go-lucky one. All that changed. Ater Snug died Pan became angry, cold. Combative. Nothing I did could get through to her. It was as if she'd had a meltdown & snapped.

Snuggles died in winter (ground was too frozen, we couldn't bury her so she stayed in the garage for a few months). In spring, we put Pan in the hutch. Maybe the fresh air would do her some good.

One day I went out there to feed her & noticed her back legs wouldn't work. I think she was trembling. I picked her up &... so many maggots. So much rotting flesh. Ran to the hose, got a few of them off of her while she sat quietly. She'd given up long before they paralyzed her, I think. But they wouldn't die, they just kept coming off her, squirming, & when 10 would come off, 10 would crawl out of her & take their place.

Less than an hour later we came home from the vet's with a dead Pan in a box. She was euthanized in my arms. & those maggots were still alive.

I am to blame for both their deaths. Death does not disturb me, actually. Suffering while dying disturbs me. Both of them suffered horribly because of my neglect & I had no other friends at the time. I had killed my two best friends.

I became angry, then I became depressed in the genuine sense of the word. I thought myself worthless, useless, a failure, a murderer. I fasted a lot, thinking myself undeserving of food because I had done this horrible thing. I wasted days by sleeping.

I promised myself I wouldn't get another rabbit because I didn't deserve that happiness. Then years passed & my coworker told me she had a buck that needed a home & I couldn't say no. Because I knew I could love him well & not make the same mistakes.

...I'm doing a lot better now, the depression is pretty much gone but I'm still struggling with no self esteem & residual bad habits/thought patterns. No matter how worthless one seems, there's Potential inside of them & they can do really good things. & no matter how stupid I think I am, I can always give myself credit for raising this rabbit in a good home.

So yes, I've dealt with fly strike before. The silver lining is that I understand a lot now.


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## Cirlin-rah (Apr 1, 2013)

12 different hays, holy cow! I'm amazed that any rabbits would be that picky. They're grazers, I would have thought they'd eat anything! Goodness, though, I'm certainly glad to reap the benefits of your search.

Hah, oats! Thanks for writing reminders. I like doing stuff with my hands, no matter how inane, so I don't mind taking the oats out. I'm planning on keeping it in my room but I hope no one here is allergic to it.

& meds too? Goodness. I'll be posting a picture of Happy!Harrow sometime soon, I think. & happy me along with him!

:happyrabbit:


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## Imbrium (Apr 1, 2013)

Cirlin-rah said:


> I'm glad your little bun got better. Mine didn't...



I'm so sorry your experience had such a tragic ending! I realize it's very easy to beat yourself up and almost impossible to grant yourself forgiveness... but please strive to consider your experiences with your new bunny a way of redeeming yourself for what you feel are personal failures in your past!

*you can beat yourself up from now until forever over your previous mistakes and shortcomings... but NO amount of personal suffering is ever going to change the past.* trust me, I've beaten my head against that wall more than enough in my lifetime to confirm that it's both painful and immovable. the past is what it is - set in stone and fully indifferent to your search for atonement. the only thing you have any hope of altering is the future... and the best way to do that is by striving to put more good out into the world than you feel you caused harm in the past. everyone has regrets, makes mistakes, sometimes causes harm when they didn't mean to - what makes someone a good person or a bad person is the big picture, not those moments where you let yourself down.

I really hope that sharing your past experience with fly strike has been somehow cathartic... and that your new bunny can eventually help you to put that time in your life behind you.



Cirlin-rah said:


> 12 different hays, holy cow! I'm amazed that any rabbits would be that picky. They're grazers, I would have thought they'd eat anything! Goodness, though, I'm certainly glad to reap the benefits of your search.



yeah, you'd THINK that... but apparently, not so much. **** adorable bunns.



Cirlin-rah said:


> I like doing stuff with my hands, no matter how inane, so I don't mind taking the oats out.



oh, really? wanna come to my house and pick all of the oats out of the rest of my stash of oat hay?


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