# Diarrhea in a litter of 6 week old rabbits



## The Haven Rabbitry (Mar 20, 2011)

I have a litter of 6 week old Californians. There are 6 in total. Everyone was doing just fine until 2 days ago when someone fed for me and gave the babies hay. They have never had it before, so I'm guessing that's what triggered it. The diarreah is watery and I'm really nervous they will all go down hill fast. Everyone is still eating really well and seem fine otherwise, but I just wanted to know if anyone had any suggestions for stopping the dirreah if it was caused by hay. Note: All of my other rabbits, including mom are doing just fine. The babies have never been moved from the cage they are in now with their mom. 

Thanks!


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## murph72 (Mar 20, 2011)

I wouldn't necessarily blame the hay, but would be looking more at just the fact the babies went from eating from mom to eating solids too quickly. I actually encourage the eating of timothy hay and oats with babies and slowly introduce pellets as these are usually what causes mucoid enteritis.

Treat your little ones with Dri-tail and Benebac. With the Dri-tail it says a number of drops to give, but I generally give more than they ask you to. In my experience, it is not a product that can be overdosed. This will stop the diarrhea. The Benebac can be administered in the tube directly behind the teeth. Also something that can't be overdosed. This is bacteria that will get their gut back in check. 

You should be treating at least three times a day. Be vigilant and stay on top of it as they will go down hill quickly.

For diet, remove all pellets from mom and babies. Mom can live on timothy hay and oats, which is actually better digestively for her and the babies. If you are concerned about their vitamin content, I've found that giving them some Nutri-cal can help to give a bit of a boost to their energy level.


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## Jynxie (Mar 20, 2011)

When Harley had diarrhea the pedilyte really helped us. 
As well as the critical care which I got from my vet. It was a force feed food.

We also got fluid therapy but this would be really, really expensive for six babies, so I wouldn't suggest this.

Tinysmom suggested pumpkin and this also helped us a lot. I used this with my dog too before, and it worked great.

and Infirmary Mod should be able to help you shortly and will probably give you some great advice. 

Edit:

Also if you do call your vet and get some critical care it has the benebac inside it, you can also mix this with the pedilyte instead of regular water to make sure they stay hydrated. Good luck, I know how frustrating and scary diarrhea is... Harley was dealing with it earlier this week.


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## murph72 (Mar 20, 2011)

I do not use critical care on babies. I'm not even quick to use it on adults...but for six week old babies, it's an absolute NO. The problem with ME is that the baby has moved onto solids too quickly...taking them straight to more solid foods in the form of critical care is a poor decision. You should also not have to use pedialyte in a baby as they'll get their fluids from mom for the most part. You can try the pedialyte, but it's more important you get the Benebac and the Dri-tail in them right now. Pedialyte is OK if they will take it...but they might not. It's harder to force a liquid on a small baby than on an older rabbit. Personally, I'd give them sub-q fluids before I'd give them pedialyte, but I'm trained in that (something I think every rabbitry owner should be trained to do, IMO, as it has saved numerous bunnies in stasis and with ME for me).

Also, do not give pumpkin or any other veggies these rabbits are not used to eating or you are making the problem worse. The problem of ME exists from adding foods your babies are not used to....you are not going in the right direction if you just add more foods their digestive systems are unaccustomed to.


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## Pipp (Mar 20, 2011)

They've been eating their mother's solid food for three weeks if they're progressing normally.

Never use Dri-tail on a rabbit.

Doubt the hay had much to do with it, depending on what they;re used to. What was their diet? Pellets? How much protein? Was the hay alfalfa or grass?

Babies adapt to their mothers' diet and both should be fed a lot of variety in small bits from the get-go to avoid problems in the future.

The vet needs to do a fecal test. It could be serious. Meanwhile fiber and fluids for a day or two -- grass hay, maybe a tiny bit of oats. 

Critical Care would be great but don't force feed them anything. No stress. No sugars. No carbs. 

Link in the next post.

sas


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## Pipp (Mar 20, 2011)

Enteritis Complexes: Coccidiosis, Mucoid Enteropathy, and Enterotoxemia (Pamela Alley) - describes the different intestinal ailments that commonly cause diarrhea in rabbits.

http://www.showbunny.com/gastrointestinal.html

Intestinal Diseases -- Enterotoxemia, Tyzzer's Disease, Colibacillosis, Proliferative Enteropathy, Mucoid Enteropathy (Merck Vet Manual)
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/171319.htm


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## murph72 (Mar 20, 2011)

Never use Dri-tail on a rabbit? Sorry, but I can't disagree more. I've had ME in babies and the Dri-tail has saved all of them. I'd also disagree on the critical care. The digestive system of a small baby can't take critical care. I'm not even a big fan of it in larger rabbits as there are far more options than critical care that don't just sit heavy in their stomachs. Baby rabbits can get mucoid enteritis up until around 10 weeks of age...so getting it at six weeks is actually a common age. Those of mine that have gotten it do get it around 6 weeks old. The Dri-tail and Benebac fix it....but you don't have to take my word for it. I just raise rabbits and have about 25 babies currently in my rabbitry. What works on an adult rabbit does not work on a small baby. JMO


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## Jynxie (Mar 20, 2011)

I brought Harley to the vet, and he was who recommended critical care and pedilyte. 

I'm also assuming they were eating pellets, just not hay. I doubt they would still be eating from the mother at this point.

Harley was also six weeks old when my vet recommended this also.

Just my opinion. :3 Just trying to help since I dealt with this last week and he is happy and healthy now and is a poop machine again (normal ones!)

I think Pipp gave some good advice too about checking for Cocci.


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## Pipp (Mar 20, 2011)

*murph72 wrote: *


> You should also not have to use pedialyte in a baby as they'll get their fluids from mom for the most part.





> Sorry but this is very wrong. I have five or six week old babies here who haven't nursed in weeks but suck up water from their bowl like little siphons. Fluids are THE most important thing, tho water will do unless they're dehydrated.




*murph72 wrote: *


> Also, do not give pumpkin or any other veggies these rabbits are not used to eating or you are making the problem worse. The problem of ME exists from adding foods your babies are not used to....you are not going in the right direction if you just add more foods their digestive systems are unaccustomed to.


This is good advice but I wouldn't extend it to hay and other sources of high fiber. 

Agree that a little Benebac or another pro-biotic is a good idea.

Always a good idea to get moms and babies used to canned pumpkin as a treat. Really pays off down the road.


sas


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## murph72 (Mar 20, 2011)

Unless you introduced Cocci or new rabbits that carry it, it's not as likely as ME. My six week olds are still eating from mom at that point. As show animals, I do not take them from their mom until eight weeks. Babies can still get ME even in the week or two following leaving mom. 

Point is that treating a baby is WAY different than treating an adult. Adults get diarrhea for different reasons than babies and should be treated differently. 

Critical care should only be used when other foods are not being taken in...which is what I'm assuming was the case with your rabbit Jynxie. Your rabbit I'm also assuming was older than this baby as it's at least illegal in my state to sell a rabbit at six weeks (which is a good idea since their digestive systems are not that tough at this age). Pedialyte is a good idea as an adult, but I've found sub-q's work even better. Exercise in an adult is also a good idea. In a baby, however, exercise for ME doesn't necessarily help matters.


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## Jynxie (Mar 20, 2011)

No my bunny was eating normally, it was to get him hydrated + get some fiber in his system.
Critical care also has probiotics in it, so I am assuming that was another reason my vet gave it to us.

Also my bunny was a day before six weeks (so technically 5 weeks and six days), my breeder gave him to me way to early. She assured me he was okay to leave his mother, when apparently he's not. Not the best breeder to say the least. She was also more interested in covering her ass when I was telling her he was sick (I was just updating her since she wanted updates...)

Not trying to sound rude either, just incase I am coming off that way. Just letting you know


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## murph72 (Mar 20, 2011)

Pipp, I'm assuming that the babies are still with the mom and still nursing. I hesitate to have someone forcing pedialyte on a baby as the baby could easily asperate. Sub-qs would be much safer than forcing pedialyte, if you learn how to do it safely. Babies do drink water at this age, but they should also still be nursing too. I'm saying she shouldn't "have to" use pedialyte if they're getting a source of fluids elsewhere. Babies are more likely to choke than adults on forced fluids, IMO.

I would still hesitate to give pumpkin to a baby with ME if it and its mom never had it before. Why add a fruit or veggie the baby is not used to if the problem likely came from a change in diet? In my experience, timothy hay is always good for their digestion and removing pellets and replacing it with oats is easier on their system until they get over ME. Slowly adding the pellets back after the babies are over all ME symptoms for at least one week.


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## Pipp (Mar 20, 2011)

*murph72 wrote: *


> Never use Dri-tail on a rabbit? Sorry, but I can't disagree more. I've had ME in babies and the Dri-tail has saved all of them. I'd also disagree on the critical care. The digestive system of a small baby can't take critical care. I'm not even a big fan of it in larger rabbits as there are far more options than critical care that don't just sit heavy in their stomachs. Baby rabbits can get mucoid enteritis up until around 10 weeks of age...so getting it at six weeks is actually a common age. Those of mine that have gotten it do get it around 6 weeks old. The Dri-tail and Benebac fix it....but you don't have to take my word for it. I just raise rabbits and have about 25 babies currently in my rabbitry. What works on an adult rabbit does not work on a small baby. JMO


Its actually breeders with the limited food mindset causing the problems to begin with IMO. Rabbits being fed a wide variety of food from the nest box will adapt way better and have a healthier array of fresh nutrients and better immune systems. 

Moms should be getting hay, fresh grass, bits of veggies and pellets (preferably a mix). They also need fresh air, proper housing (multi-levels and/or ground space, burrow-like enclosures) and other enhancements to mimic their natural environment. 

I believe the exposure to all the different pathogens found everywhere may be more dangerous for a few but ultimately way healthier for the rest. 

PS: I have a broken arm, can;t type well, this isn't directed at Murph, no idea re: diet and housing. Only the reference to diet changes. Babies exposed to variety don't have to worry so much.

sas


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## Pipp (Mar 20, 2011)

*murph72 wrote: *


> Pipp, I'm assuming that the babies are still with the mom and still nursing. I hesitate to have someone forcing pedialyte on a baby as the baby could easily asperate. Sub-qs would be much safer than forcing pedialyte, if you learn how to do it safely. Babies do drink water at this age, but they should also still be nursing too. I'm saying she shouldn't "have to" use pedialyte if they're getting a source of fluids elsewhere. Babies are more likely to choke than adults on forced fluids, IMO.
> 
> I would still hesitate to give pumpkin to a baby with ME if it and its mom never had it before. Why add a fruit or veggie the baby is not used to if the problem likely came from a change in diet? In my experience, timothy hay is always good for their digestion and removing pellets and replacing it with oats is easier on their system until they get over ME. Slowly adding the pellets back after the babies are over all ME symptoms for at least one week.



Agreed, good advice. 


sas


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## murph72 (Mar 20, 2011)

Jynxie,
You are not being rude at all. I'm sorry your breeder was irresponsible and made you go through what you did. You are very lucky to have been able to save your bunny. I have numerous individuals that have given me horror stories of bunnies they weren't able to save because they were given bunnies far too young.

I always keep Benebac on hand in the tube form. I find the probiotics in a tube of benebac is easier to give to a rabbit because you can insert the tube behind their teeth and squeeze. They seem to take this form much better than a liquid. Some bunnies will not take a critical care mixture or even a liquid such as pedialyte. I just got a bunny through stasis that she got during a huge change in temps we were having. She would not take anything other than benebac, nutrical, and the sub-q fluids (which she didn't have a choice on). 

If your bunny was eating normally, I wouldn't have added the critical care. I'm not a big fan of the stuff and only use it when I absolutely have to (i.e. bunny has not been eating anything other than the nutrical for a day or two).


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## murph72 (Mar 20, 2011)

*Pipp wrote: *


> *murph72 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Never use Dri-tail on a rabbit? Sorry, but I can't disagree more. I've had ME in babies and the Dri-tail has saved all of them. I'd also disagree on the critical care. The digestive system of a small baby can't take critical care. I'm not even a big fan of it in larger rabbits as there are far more options than critical care that don't just sit heavy in their stomachs. Baby rabbits can get mucoid enteritis up until around 10 weeks of age...so getting it at six weeks is actually a common age. Those of mine that have gotten it do get it around 6 weeks old. The Dri-tail and Benebac fix it....but you don't have to take my word for it. I just raise rabbits and have about 25 babies currently in my rabbitry. What works on an adult rabbit does not work on a small baby. JMO
> ...


Please don't lump me in the bad breeders category. My rabbits live in what my friends call the Taj Mahal of rabbit buildings. They prefer kale in their veggie selection and get Cheerios as a treat every day. Timothy hay is a staple in the barn and encouraged constantly. My rabbits also have time to run (not together, but on a schedule so all get free time). 

I'm assuming that these rabbits are not getting a multitude of options in the dietary department in the fact that she states that the rabbits were given hay and didn't get it before. The fact they weren't at least getting timothy hay scares me. Unfortunately, at this stage, adding a bunch of veggies and such that they're not used to is going to make the problem worse. Timothy hay, IMO, did not cause the problem. If their diet consisted of timothy hay, pellets, mom's milk and water...my money is on the pellets being the major contributor. I introduce my babies slowly to pellets. If I see they're pigging out at the dish, I give more oats. The ones that pig out on the pellets are usually the ones that get ME in my experience.


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## Jynxie (Mar 20, 2011)

I guess I was lucky, Harley loved his critical care.
I didn't really even have to force feed, he would even eat it off my finger if it got on me.

I think the main idea is to get the babies hydrated at this point, call your vet and see what they suggest?

Also... Aren't young rabbits suppost to get alfalfa? I've been giving that to Harley.One of myvets said timothy the other said alfalfa.Also everyone on here says alfalfa. I'm a little confused


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## Pipp (Mar 20, 2011)

I've had excellent results with Critical Care and NutriCal as well, but which one depends on the circumstances. I use Critical Care when fiber and fluids are needed (ME), Nutrical when calories are needed (anorexia, etc). Big difference here.

sas


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## Pipp (Mar 20, 2011)

*Jynxie wrote: *


> Also... Aren't young rabbits suppost to get alfalfa? I've been giving that to Harley.One of myvets said timothy the other said alfalfa.Also everyone on here says alfalfa. I'm a little confused



Young rabbits need higher protein, calcium, so alfalfa is usually recommended, but you also want them eating grass hay. A mix is best. You also have to balance it with the rest of the diet. High protein pellets, more grass hay; low protein pellets, alfalfa.

Murph, I wasn' referring to you, sorry. Shouldnt have included your quote like that.


sas


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## murph72 (Mar 20, 2011)

Jynxie, I personally never feed alfalfa. It's pretty high in sugars. I find that the timothy works well at any age to help keep their digestive system on track. Your vet may have given the critical care in lieu of the benebac as that is what they had on hand with priobiotics in it. If the rabbit takes the critical care easily, that's fine. If not, benebac is easier to force into them for the necessary beneficial bacteria. 

I give Nutri-cal on any animal that is not eating as much as they should be. For stasis it does help to get the gut moving. For ME I only use it if I see them off of food. If they remain on food, Nutri-cal isn't needed as they can get the nutrients they need from the foods they are eating. When an ME baby stops eating, that's when I'd go to the Nutri-cal. So far, she says hers are still eating, so I would allow them to eat on their own...encourage the timothy hay and oats that are easy on the gut, and not force feed unless I had to. Forcing the benebac is worth it, IMO for ME babies...but if they're still eating they should not be forced to eat what you choose to force on them. That adds unnecessary stress.

Pipp, Why are you so against the use of Dri-tail? It has worked wonders for me with ME. I generally give them an entire dropper three times a day. It stops the runs and then the benebac helps to get the proper bacteria levels in the gut. The combination of the two has saved every ME case I've had since another breeder suggested it to me.


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## Pipp (Mar 20, 2011)

*murph72 wrote: *


> Pipp, Why are you so against the use of Dri-tail? It has worked wonders for me with ME. I generally give them an entire dropper three times a day. It stops the runs and then the benebac helps to get the proper bacteria levels in the gut. The combination of the two has saved every ME case I've had since another breeder suggested it to me.


Havent checked lately, label used to specifically say not for use on rabbits.

Its an antibiotic, it can cause an imbalance if there isn't, stasis, as well as a future antibiotics resistance. I probably wouldnt be opposed where its confirmed the antibiotic is needed or in 'hail mary' cases. Cant type well enough to explain. 


sas


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## murph72 (Mar 20, 2011)

Just checked the label and it doesn't specifically say it's for rabbits, nor does it say it isn't to be used on rabbits. I've been using it for at least two or three years now for ME and have never had an issue with it. It stops the diarrhea within a day and then with the benebac the gut seems to get back on track pretty quickly. I like quick solutions for ME, so that's why I swear by it. The longer it's drawn out, the less likely the rabbit will get over it.

I personally can count on one hand the number of times I've used an antibiotic for my rabbits, so I'm not really all the scared about them getting immune to antibiotics. I figure you use the product that brings about a quick solution. If the rabbit's diarrhea is already watery, I'd say it's already a hail Mary kind of case.


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## The Haven Rabbitry (Mar 20, 2011)

Ok, well, here's more info for you. The babies are still in with mom, nursing as well. They are going to her dish to eat pellets. They are also drinking well.I do give my rabbits orchard grass/timothy hay mix a few times a week. This is per the advice of my breeder I get my rabbits from. I feed mom and babies Manna Pro Gro formula. Fiber is 20%. I just assumed the hay since they hadn't had it before and immediately following the next day they broke with diarrhea. I've raised other rabbits the same way with no troubles on the pellets.These rabbits have not been exposed to any other rabbits or cages. The mother has not been switched between cages except one time to breed with the buck. I do not have alot of rabbits, and have never had this problem with any other litters. Everyone is still very active and eating well. It's hard to decide what to do since there is so much conflicting information.:? But thanks to those of you who gave me advice. 

I can give sub-q fluids with no problem. I just didn't know what to do since I've never had this problem before.

Thanks


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## Happi Bun (Mar 20, 2011)

Dri Tail should not be used on Rabbits. It is a product used on small rodents... rabbits are not rodents.

Quote per Amazon website, "Do not use on none rodents such as rabbits."
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002RJMDC/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## Jynxie (Mar 20, 2011)

I would contact your vet to be honest, and see what they say. You could even call and ask if they have any of the products mentioned and if these would work (in their opinion).

I peronally really loved critical care, and it saved my little guy from diarrhea. You can see my topic called (resolved, harleys not doing well...). But I would consult a vet, or have some more people chime in on their thoughts.


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## murph72 (Mar 20, 2011)

LOL Rabbits aren't rodents. Go to Bunnyrabbit.com. That, as well as many other reputable sites to purchase rabbit supplies, sell Dri-tail to be used on rabbits. Amazon isn't exactly a reputable site for rabbit information. That's also not what the product packaging says now. I have the present packaging and am not relying on Amazon. 

Do you think I, as well as many other reputable breeders, have been using it on our show bunnies without any issues because we're just "lucky"? If I had that kind of luck I'd play the lottery.


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## murph72 (Mar 20, 2011)

Haven,
What do you have on hand? Do you have Benebac in any of its forms? That's the first thing you can do irregardless of any other treatment. If they are eating on their own, there is no need to force critical care. I would stop the pellets and move to strictly timothy hay (I don't use anything except pure timothy, so I'm not sure if there would be any problems with the orchard grass mixed in). If you have oats, I'd use that as a replacement for the pellets. It sits well in their stomach and is easy to digest. I'd have to bet that you are dealing with ME as the age fits and you haven't exposed them to any outside ailments. 

If they are eating, do you know if they are also drinking? My guess is that they are because usually dehydrated rabbits don't eat. Sub-q fluids wouldn't hurt, but might be unnecessary as of yet if they are still hydrated and eating.


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## Happi Bun (Mar 20, 2011)

*murph72 wrote: *


> LOL Rabbits aren't rodents. Go to Bunnyrabbit.com. That, as well as many other reputable sites to purchase rabbit supplies, sell Dri-tail to be used on rabbits. Amazon isn't exactly a reputable site for rabbit information. That's also not what the product packaging says now. I have the present packaging and am not relying on Amazon.
> 
> Do you think I, as well as many other reputable breeders, have been using it on our show bunnies without any issues because we're just "lucky"? If I had that kind of luck I'd play the lottery.


I'm not sure why me saying Rabbits are not rodents is so funny... :?

I'm not challenging your opinion, just providing information to the OP so they can form their OWN opinion. It appears popular to use with breeders. I *personally* am not going to use a product that says, do not use on rabbits, on my rabbits.


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## murph72 (Mar 20, 2011)

Sorry, I get lots of people who say rabbits are rodents, so I think it's kind of funny when someone on a rabbit forum is actually saying they're not rodents. Yes, they're not rodents, but they're not horses either...and many horse medications work on rabbits. The current packaging does not say a word about not using it on rabbits...perhaps they changed something in the formula since that original packaging. 

As breeders we've definitely dealt with more issues than the typical rabbit owner. Rather than just having dealt with ME once, I've dealt with it numerous times...as have my other friends who breed and show rabbits. My rabbits are worth a great deal to me, as they are to my friends.....we've had the opportunity to try out different treatments to find what works best. For me, Dri-tail and Benebac have worked awesome. I have not had as much luck with using Critical Care and will only use it when they are no longer eating on their own.


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## Happi Bun (Mar 20, 2011)

I'm well aware they are not horses and I did not mention any type of comparison, so I'm not sure why you would bring that up. To my understanding in the past the packaging did state not for use with rabbits due to they had not yet tested it on them to make sure it was okay. Perhaps that has changed. 

That's all I will say on the subject though, since I don't want to clutter Haven's thread with this disagreement. Good luck with your babies, sending healing vibes to them.

ray:


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## Pipp (Mar 20, 2011)

*murph72 wrote: *


> As breeders we've definitely dealt with more issues than the typical rabbit owner. Rather than just having dealt with ME once, I've dealt with it numerous times...as have my other friends who breed and show rabbits. My rabbits are worth a great deal to me, as they are to my friends.....we've had the opportunity to try out different treatments to find what works best. For me, Dri-tail and Benebac have worked awesome. I have not had as much luck with using Critical Care and will only use it when they are no longer eating on their own.



ME can be lots of different things. Best for the OP to read the link to the Pamela Alley/Showbunny article, its one of the best I've seen for breeders. She's the head of the Rabbit Industry Council.

I strongly recommend against that many oats. They have fiber but the carbs can feed any bad bacteria making the problem worse.

Re: Dri-tail, repeatedly having the same problem likely means the same cause (the same bacteria) so not surprising its works all the time. So yes, luck does enter into it. You have the right antibiotic for your bacteria. 

But your litters may be getting it more often in the first place because the Dri-tail has only killed off the weaker bacteria members allowing the stronger ones to survive and strike again.

And it really needs to not be recommended and then have rabbit guardians with different problems trying Dri-Tail instead of proper diagnostics and the supportive treatment actually needed -- fiber and fluids.

sas


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## murph72 (Mar 20, 2011)

Ok. I give up. For the record, bacteria is not running rampant in my rabbitry. ME has been treated with Dri-tail by numerous breeders in numerous rabbitries. I doubt we're all dealing with the same bacteria unless you're arguing that ME is caused by the same bacteria in all. In my experience, ME is caused by the bunny moving too quickly to solids, not by bacteria entering into the situation. 

Try what you wish, I offered what has worked for me and my friends numerous times, not just once. 

Oats and oatmeal sit better in their system when ME is the culprit than the pellets. 

Ok....done now. Do what you wish. Done responding and don't plan on doing it again anytime soon. That's why I don't visit this site often. It's rampant with pet owners and anti-breeder individuals. Though, I wonder where you all get your rabbits if it isn't from responsible breeders like myself. You'd think you'd want to listen to those that have more experience, but perhaps owning pets and running to the vet all the time is the way to go on here. Personally, our vets suck, so I have learned to treat things myself. It doesn't stress out my rabbits hauling them to a vet that will likely give them something pointless like Baytril.


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## TinysMom (Mar 20, 2011)

I'm finding this discussion fascinating so I googled a bit on Dri-Tail and rabbits.

The places I found (that weren't stores) that recommended Dri-Tail - were older websites that also recommended using yogurt (and we know now how that isn't a good idea).

I've never used Dri-Tail so I can't say much about it - but just because a rabbit supplier carries it - doesn't make it "safe" in my personal opinion (for my own rabbits).

Anyway - I found it interesting that some breeders did recommend it - but their webpages seemed to be older ones.


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## Maureen Las (Mar 20, 2011)

What about the biosponge ? 



http://www.entirelypets.com/platbio15cc.html

I know Randy swears by this
problem is obtaining it although many horse owners have it around


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## Maureen Las (Mar 20, 2011)

The manufacturer states not to use Dri-tail on rabbits ???? 
it is basically neomycin sulfate 

http://www.pet-dog-cat-supply-store.com/shop/index.php?page=shop-flypage-22071#longdesc


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## Pipp (Mar 21, 2011)

Murph, the link I posted for the best advice was from Showbunny/the Rabbit Industry Council, hardly anti-breeder.

http://www.showbunny.com/gastrointestinal.html

Also bacteria is everywhere and may be prominent/specific to an area or food source or whatever, eg humans carry e coli and can transmit to babies with weak immune systems, etc. , or food causing bacterial imbalances, etc, you misunderstood, not discussing husbandry.

deleting first paragraph, repetitious, better explained elsewhere. 


sas


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## Happi Bun (Mar 21, 2011)

*murph72 wrote: *


> Ok....done now. Do what you wish. Done responding and don't plan on doing it again anytime soon. That's why I don't visit this site often. It's rampant with pet owners and anti-breeder individuals. Though, I wonder where you all get your rabbits if it isn't from responsible breeders like myself. You'd think you'd want to listen to those that have more experience, but perhaps owning pets and running to the vet all the time is the way to go on here. Personally, our vets suck, so I have learned to treat things myself. It doesn't stress out my rabbits hauling them to a vet that will likely give them something pointless like Baytril.


Oh no, not pet owners! We don't know anything about rabbit health, think they are either rodents or horses and constantly have to bring our sick pet bunnies to the vet. :rollseyes

FYI - I have yet to have to bring my bunnies to the vet for health problem, thank you. Where we get our rabbits is irrelevant. Experience does not make someone automatically correct, that your opinion HAS to be followed, or that you can never be wrong. 

Anti-Breeders? Not at all. There are plenty of breeders and pet owners alike on this forum. Heads do butt, opinions differ from time to time, but it's filled with that much more information and advice. You want find a forum this size with this amount of activity with a rescue AND also breeder section.

Just felt like defending RO, sorry for getting off topic.


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## TinysMom (Mar 21, 2011)

*Happi Bun wrote:*


> Heads do butt, opinions differ from time to time


Us?

Butt heads? 

Have differing opinions?

On THIS forum?

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Yep - all the time. 

I love the fact that we agree to disagree and still respect each other.

Sorry - I was reading your comment about heads butting and I started to spit out my drink cause I was laughing so hard.....


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## Sweetie (Mar 21, 2011)

So was I Peg, except I wasn't drinking.

Original Poster: Please talk to your vet and keep those babies hydrated. Remember every rabbit is different. What works for one doesn't always work for another. What worked for Sweetie may not work for another rabbit. But hydration before nutrition. Murph gave some good advice but I think they were pushing what they knew worked for their rabbits on you, for you to use on your rabbits.

Best advice on here is to talk to your vet and see what they say, also listen to the mods they know what they are doing. They have researched information about rabbits of different ages. They are awesome!!! I would trust Pipp, Tinysmom, Angieluv, Randy(ra7751), and Tonyshuman, over any member.

Pet owners do not know rabbits??? BULL. Everyone experiences different problems. I know for a fact that rabbits are not rodents, they are lagomorphs(sp). My vet calls them miniature horses, because they eat hay and their teeth continuosly grow, just like horses teeth. I know more about rabbits now than I did when I starting owning rabbits.

This forum is a wonderful place.


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## The Haven Rabbitry (Mar 21, 2011)

Thanks. I will try the benebac. They are all drinking and still eating. I just hope for the best! Thanks to those of you who gave me advice! Much appreciated!


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## RNRQ (Mar 21, 2011)

To the OP:

This is Pamela Alley, the author of the Showbunny article that was recommended here. Not too much has changed since it was written, although I'm revising it this year for a few reasons.

First question: What kind of hay did they get? Any chance it was slightly old/molded at ALL or have weeds you would normally pick out?

When you see an entire litter that age go to diarrhea so swiftly, there are three things I think of first, especially if they are in good plump shape at the time:

1) Feed change is quite often a culprit, and your job is to counteract the gut's reaction to the change.

Give grass hay and check momma for signs of mastitis. You can give parsley to encourage intake of both parsley and hay. I would not worry about what KIND of grass hay as long as it's nice, clean hay that they will actually eat. Strongly encourage fluid intake by providing dishes instead of bottles or automatic watering valves; the water may be *lightly* flavored with Gatorade, Snapple Lemon Iced Tea (NO DIET LIQUIDS EVER!) or even with plain teabags. 

2) Coccidiosis. It can hit very quickly, and 6 weeks is 'prime' age to see it happen. This is something that can be triggered by feed changes as well, and the first thing to do is get a fecal float done by the veterinarian to make sure that you know what you have going on. Treat with sulfadimethoxine as indicated for cats/kittens, but for a full 15 days' time.

3) Mucoid enteropathy. Common in young rabbits fed diets lower than necessary in long fiber, the cecum often becomes filled with fine feed particles, then for whatever reason, the rabbit begins to dehydrate--and then you have what is essentially modeling-clay-working-towards-concrete in the cecum. VERY difficult if not impossible to rehydrate and see successful recovery from. 

I'm going to add a fourth issue here, and it's one that is relatively new to the US: Epizootic Rabbit Enteropathy, ERE.

We don't know the exact cause or reason, although the scientists are looking at a definite pathogenic cause--if they could just find it definitively. So far, no luck.  However, this is a syndrome which affects the gut in a manner similar to Mucoid Enteropathy, but which has some notable differences in effect. A short article on it is available on the http://www.showbunny.com homepage. 

Most noticeably, this disease involves severe bloating and pain in addition to the classic signs of ME.

*****

Medications used with apparent success for ERE in Europe include bacitracin; here in the US, neomycin sulfate (DriTail) and metronidazole (Flagyl) have been used.

I say APPARENT success, especially on the US cases, because no one is totally sure it is the very same disease as what has been described in Europe.

I do know that DriTail has been used with success in helping some rabbits with diarrhea recover; I am not aware of any uses of this drug where there have been negative outcomes. Doesn't mean there aren't any, just that I haven't heard about them if there are. 

*********

As for diets: I'm a huge fan of balanced and complete, however it may happen that you get there. It is a zillion times more difficult to achieve this goal using a wide variety of feedstuffs than it is to use well-formulated, fresh pellets as your basis and work from there.

In my ~30 years of rabbit raising, breeding, and experimenting here and there, I have found that kits provided with a clean nestbox, clean cage, plenty of clean fresh grassy hay, a well-fed momma and plenty of fresh liquid water....all of these things are essential in producing a healthy, well-developed young rabbit.

But most of all, the kits must have access to a GOOD balanced and COMPLETE diet. If they are lacking, they can get anything from diarrhea to rickets to going bald as a billiard ball. (Or something more subtle that you may not see on the outside, too.)

Start with hay and pellets. The hay can be plain grass, or a grass-legume mix, as long as it is clean and readily available to them. I would not recommend straight legume hays, as kits tend to pick off the tasty leaves and leave all the good stemmy fiber bits.  

Then you can give them a nibble here, anibble there of things like blackberry leaves, mature grasses, mulberry leaves, parsley....ONLY IN MODERATION. The main diet should still be that well-balanced and complete pellet with a hay chaser. After they have a chance to finish 'setting' the gut flora (about 8 weeks, 12 for dwarfs), they can have whatever mix you feel is appropriate, or they can stay with the pellets. Won't hurt 'em a bit.

In my experience, this is themost reliableway to ensure healthy kits--regardless of how they are housed or how that housing is enriched or not.

And now before this becomes a complete book, I'll catch y'all later. 

Pamela Alley, Director, Rabbit Industry Council, Owner ShowBunny.com

http://www.rabbitindustrycouncil.com 

http://www.showbunny.com

RNRQ at cncnet. com (you know what to do!)


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## Maureen Las (Mar 21, 2011)

Thank you very much Pam and Welcome to RO !


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## Sweetie (Mar 21, 2011)

Yes welcome to RO Pam, good to have you on board. Very useful information.


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## Maureen Las (Mar 21, 2011)

How are the rabbits doing? :?


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## The Haven Rabbitry (Mar 22, 2011)

After checking on them last night and this morning, everyone is still eating and drinking. Everyone is active and alert!  I don't know, maybe it wasn't as bad as I was thinking it was. They have never stopped eating, drinking, or become lethergic, etc... 

Thanks to all who gave me advice, I truly appreciate it!


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## Maureen Las (Mar 22, 2011)

Is the poop any firmer ??


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## The Haven Rabbitry (Mar 22, 2011)

Yes it is. Still a little soft, but definitely firmer. Everyone ate hay again this evening and were all very active and happy. SO, I'm hoping the worst of my worries are over, although I will keep a very close eye on them!


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## Maureen Las (Mar 22, 2011)

It is very good that they are eating their hay ; very good sign 
Ihope that they continue to improve


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## The Haven Rabbitry (Mar 23, 2011)

Thank you for your support! They were still doing great this morning!  No diarrhea!


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## Maureen Las (Mar 23, 2011)

That is great !!

I am wondering what you actually did do to help them;it may help us in the future


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## The Haven Rabbitry (Mar 23, 2011)

Honestly, I just treated them with Albon in their water, stopped all pellets and gave them plenty of hay. They had never stopped eating or drinking, so I doubt if these things would help on their own with more severe cases??? I also don't know if it makes a difference that they are a large breed rabbit and heftier than small breed rabbits at that age??? BUT, just glad all are doing so well! Thanks!


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## Maureen Las (Mar 23, 2011)

Albon treats coccidia ;I wonder if they had it ?

Anyway thanks for letting us know and I'm glad that they are well


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## tonyshuman (Mar 23, 2011)

Albon is also antibacterial.


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## The Haven Rabbitry (Mar 24, 2011)

Their fecal was negative, but sometimes you can miss parasites on a fecal so I just went ahead and treated anyways. Seems to work. All are well!


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## Sweetie (Mar 26, 2011)

YAY! Glad to hear the little ones are doing great!


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Mar 26, 2011)

ETA: Just realized this thread was longer than I thought and problem solved. Good.  Just leaving this info for future use:

I didn't have time to read every single post here, so please excuse any repetition. However, mucoid enteropathy (mucoid enteritis) is not caused by switching foods too rapidly or by breeders not introducing various foods, etc. That is another discussion entirely.

Mucoid enteritis is caused by harmful bacteria in the digestive system.

Here is an article from TLL Rabbitry in Michigan about how to treat mucoid enteropathy:

http://www.threelittleladiesrabbitry.com/mucoidenteritis.php

The most important thing is making sure there is hay and water available.


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## Sweetie (Mar 28, 2011)

OakRidgeRabbits: I suspected that but wasn't too sure about it. I had switched Prince food quickly before and he didn't get ME, that is what I was thinking. I am glad to see that I was right as posters in this thread were right, except one. I won't mention names.


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