# Good Day/Bad Day



## pamnock (Jan 8, 2005)

Matthew is very excited to have his very firstlitter of baby bunnies! Four perfect little Dwarf Hotots. 

I also got to meet"mambo 101" from the forum who came out today 

On a sad note, Matthew's other doe that was due today suffered a prolapsed uterus and had to be put down 

Pam


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## Delphinum (Jan 8, 2005)

Oh that's wonderful about the kits, but so awful about the poor doe! I hope Matthew is okay! He must be devastated about losing her! 

*hugs*

Ang xx


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## pamnock (Jan 8, 2005)

Matthew was sad, but understood that there was nothing we could do for her  Of course, he insisted on a detailed explaination of exactly what was wrong.

Pam


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## Fergi (Jan 8, 2005)

Pam, it wasn't one of the new polish buns wasit?? Matthew sounds like a real trooper, I'm sure it helps to have fournew kits to think about. I think that is great that he wanted tounderstand exactly what happened. You are sure going to have a verywell-rounded child! Tell Matthew good luck with the kits andCONGRATULATIONS!!

Fergi's mom


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## Cinnabun (Jan 8, 2005)

awww thats aweful! i lost my baby 2months ago(i've had her for about 8 9 years) im sooo sorry on your loss, butatleast you have her babies that has her blood in her! (thats what ifigured out from that but if not im sorry) i remember my mom and dad'sfriend wanted to breed my rabbit when she was like 7 years old, i toldhim no because i felt it she was too old for it! again im sorry!


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## DaisyNBuster (Jan 8, 2005)

Oh no what a wonderful start to the day for himand then for that to happen. The poor little boy! Congratulations tohim on is first litter but I am so sorry he lost his other bunny andthe babies - so sad . I will be thinking about him.

Vickie


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## Carolyn (Jan 8, 2005)

So glad you got to meet mambo101 today! 

I'll write Matthew a note in his 'you've got mail' post.

Thanks for news, Pam. 

-Carolyn


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## lanna21974 (Jan 8, 2005)

Congratulations Matthew on the first litter. Iknow he had to be very excited. I'm sorry about the doe. That's so sad.:?

What causes the uterus to prolapse? What are the symptoms? I'm curious. I think that's the first time I've ever heard of that.

Lanna


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## pamnock (Jan 8, 2005)

Thankfully, it was not his new Polish. Those won't be old enough to breed until February.

I am not certain how common a prolapsed uterus is. There is not much documentation on it in rabbits, and it is only the second time I've actually seen it. The first one happened years ago, and she had also never seen a prolapsed uterus in a rabbit. It can happen as with any other species -- due to weak muscular and ligament structure around the uterus, straining can literally push the uterus out. Tumors and genetics may also predispose a doe to prolapse.

The first sign of trouble with this doe was the fact that she passed a little blood a couple days ago. When mambo 101 came over, we went out to the rabbitry and Inoted blood in the pan and on the doe's feet. I picked her up to examine her and the uteruswas protruding out.

In the first case, the doe had a possible viral infection, may have been straining and it caused the uterus to prolapse. The uterus may only slightly prolapse, not protrude and may not even cause any symptoms in some cases. Leaking urine, discharge, and frequent bladder infections may indicate a mild prolapse.

Pam


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## Carolyn (Jan 8, 2005)

Sounds painful for the baby girl.



-Carolyn


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## pamnock (Jan 8, 2005)

She was crying a little at first, but did munch on a little hay. Ryan said he would "take care of her for me", so I bundled her up in a towel handed her gently over and went to wait in the barn. Ryan quickly dispatched her with a hand gun and said not to worry, that she wentinstantly & amp; was not afraid.

It's one of thosevery, very, verydifficult aspects of raising animals 

Pam


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## Bo B Bunny (Jan 8, 2005)

*pamnock wrote:*


> Thankfully, it was not his new Polish. Those won'tbe old enough to breed until February.
> 
> I am not certain how common a prolapsed uterus is. There isnot much documentation on it in rabbits, and it is only the second timeI've actually seen it. The first one happened years ago, andshe had also never seen a prolapsed uterus in a rabbit. Itcan happen as with any other species -- due to weak muscular andligament structure around the uterus, straining can literally push theuterus out. Tumors and genetics may also predispose a doe to prolapse.
> 
> ...


A family member had a dog that prolapsed also. Shewas able to get her in to the vet and they did a full spay on her. She's fine. I don't know about bunnies and this condition tho


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## lanna21974 (Jan 8, 2005)

Thanks Pam for answering those questions. That has to be so hard to see, and I hope I never have that problem.

Lanna


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## pamnock (Jan 8, 2005)

It's possible that a full spay at that pointcould have been done (she was not going into shock, nor was the bleeding excessive), however it's $200+ (plus afterhours/weekendcost)that I just don't have 

Pam


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## Bo B Bunny (Jan 8, 2005)

*pamnock wrote: *


> It'spossible that a full spay at that pointcould have been done(she was not going into shock, nor was the bleeding excessive), howeverit's $200+ (plus after hours/weekendcost)that Ijust don't have
> 
> Pam


I understand  I hate those decisions to make.


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## Buck Jones (Jan 9, 2005)

*pamnock wrote:*


> ...Ryan quickly dispatched her with a hand gun andsaid not to worry, that she wentinstantly &amp; was notafraid.
> 
> It's one of thosevery, very, verydifficult aspects of raising animals


So sorry to hear of the loss. It is never easy, especiallywhen you have to do it yourself. Been there, donethat. Feel for you.

Buck


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## RaspberrySwirl (Jan 9, 2005)

Right there withyou Buck and Pam. I was raised in a family that took care of thosethings themselves also. It never meant anyone cared any less for ananimal. It was just the way it was. It's only been in the "recent" pastthat putting an animal down at a veterinary was even an realisticoption for most people. I think most breeders of any animals take careof those matters themselves.

I will also go to the "Matthew" post to make my congratulatory remarks! 

Raspberry


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## DaisyNBuster (Jan 9, 2005)

*pamnock wrote: *


> Shewas crying a little at first, but did munch on a little hay.Ryan said he would "take care of her for me", so I bundled her up in atowel handed her gently over and went to wait in the barn.Ryan quickly dispatched her with a hand gun and said not to worry, thatshe wentinstantly &amp; was not afraid.
> 
> It's one of thosevery, very, verydifficult aspects of raising animals
> 
> Pam





Oh how painfully heartbreaking that must be for you Pam. At least the poor girl is at peace now and isn't suffering!

Vickie


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## Dolores Lindvall (Jan 9, 2005)

This is one of the things that is not fun, but happens every once-in-awhile. I did get so I could put the uterus back in a ewe, sew her up, have her live, and lamb again. Had to cut the stitches when she started into labor. And the uterus didn not come back out again.Trying to do that with a rabbit might be an entirely different story.....the space being so small! I never did have a doe who prolapsed. Just lucky, I guess!

- Dolores


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## pamnock (Jan 9, 2005)

*Dolores Lindvall wrote:*


> This is one of the things that is not fun, but happens everyonce-in-awhile. I did get so I could put the uterus back in aewe, sew her up, have her live, and lamb again. Had to cutthe stitches when she started into labor. And the uterus didnnot come back out again. Trying to do that with a rabbitmight be an entirely different story.....the space being sosmall! I never did have a doe who prolapsed. Justlucky, I guess!
> 
> - Dolores




The thought did briefly cross my mind  They do it with cowsalso. There is the issue that if there is a chancethat it's a hereditary pre-disposition, I wouldn't want to continuebreeding that genetic weakness into the line.

Pam


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jan 9, 2005)

*RaspberrySwirl wrote:*


> Right there with you Buck and Pam. I was raised in a family that took care of those things themselves also. It never meant anyone cared any less for an animal. It was just the way it was. It's only been in the "recent" past that putting an animal down at a veterinary was even an realistic option for most people. I think most breeders of any animals take care of those matters themselves.


Well there is one huge difference between Canada and the USA that Iwould like to point out in this post. I know that a lot of Americans carry guns around for protection, but in Canada that is completely different, it's not allowed and many people do not own a gun. That leaves the vet to put an animal down humanely. I also know that people call the vet out or take their pets to the vet clinic when something is wrong and sometimes the best solution is to put the animal down and generally people don't say no to the vet and 'take care of it themselves'.

Just a point I'd like to make.


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## pamnock (Jan 9, 2005)

Very good point!

There is actually a huge sign as you drive into our town that states "Lose your gun, lose your rights". (or something to that effect)

I don't really like guns and am not comfortable handling them, but take them for granted because, since I've been little, guns have always been in our house.

Hubby has a license to carry a concealed weapon (although he generally doesn't). Fourteen year old son, Ryan, owns a number of guns (including a hand gun)and enjoys target shooting as well as hunting. Matthew also enjoys target shooting and has been taught gun safety since he was very little. 

I think there's is a major difference in a child who has been brought up around guns, taken safety courses and uses a gun frequentlyas opposed to a child who lives in a household where a parent may have a gun for protection, but the gun is never handled or used.This is where you often see cases of the "misuse" of a gun.

Pam


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jan 9, 2005)

See that's the biggest difference between Canadaand the USA. Many people would suffer culture chock going from onecountry to another. It's a little scary being a Canadian and travellingin the States, the way of life is very different.


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## Dolores Lindvall (Jan 9, 2005)

*Yes, there is that chance of it being hereditary. In doing this with the sheep, I ended up saving the life of the ewe...which was the primary concern. In"lucking out" and having her lamb again and again afterwards, I got a huge bonus. Otherwise, I'd have lost her.....had several diethat way after waiting for the vet to get out there to put them together and sew them up. Time is of essence in trying toprevent the infection.*

*And, my husband, at the time, did have to use his pistol a few times when there was no way out of it. *

*- Dolores*



*pamnock wrote: *


> *Dolores Lindvall wrote: *
> 
> 
> > This isone of the things that is not fun, but happens everyonce-in-awhile. I did get so I could put the uterus back in aewe, sew her up, have her live, and lamb again. Had to cutthe stitches when she started into labor. And the uterus didnnot come back out again. Trying to do that with a rabbitmight be an entirely different story.....the space being sosmall! I never did have a doe who prolapsed. Justlucky, I guess!
> ...


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## *nepo* (Jan 9, 2005)

I'm sorry about the doe. But Congratulations on the kits .


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## sunnysideup (Jan 9, 2005)

pamnock wrote:


> She was crying a little at first, but did munch on a littlehay. Ryan said he would "take care of her for me", so I bundledher up in a towel handed her gently over and went to wait in thebarn. Ryan quickly dispatched her with a hand gun and said not toworry, that she wentinstantly & was not afraid.
> 
> It's one of thosevery, very, verydifficult aspects of raising animals
> 
> Pam



I'm very impressed with your fourteen yr. old 'taking care of her' for his mom and little brother, and then telling you she went instantly and was not afraid. What a remarkable young man you have there.


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## RaspberrySwirl (Jan 10, 2005)

*sunnysideup wrote: *


> I'm very impressed with your fourteen yr. old 'taking care of her' forhis mom and little brother, and then telling you she went instantly andwas not afraid. What a remarkable young man you havethere.


Ditto!


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## RaspberrySwirl (Jan 10, 2005)

I'm almost laughingtrying to imagine what Laura's view of us is right now! But I love youdearly sweetheart and don't want to make light of the situation! I dothink a lot of people outside of the US see us as a bunch of roguecowboy types! Every woman walking around with guns strapped to ourgarter belts

and men with six shooters at hisside!

It is an issue we take very seriously hereand it's a large part of our culture. I'm quite certain from some ofthe discussions we've had here on the forum that there are several ofus that have grown up with guns/hunting as part of our family lifestyleand it's totally natural to us. We know it no other way and wouldn'tchange it. 

Raspberry


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jan 10, 2005)

I know and I know it's just a difference in our societies but there really is a huge difference between our 2 countries.

I talk to many Americans on the internet, many of which hunt and whatnot but I just could not see myself walking down the street knowing that someone is bound to be carrying a gun in their purse! 

It's often been said that travelling in the States is dangerous for Canadians. When Americans see our license plates they know full wellthat we are probably not carrying a gun and it does make us easy targets.

It's just that generally people here don't always have the means of 'taking care' of their own animals.


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## Dwarf_Angel04 (Jan 10, 2005)

We recently had a gun agruement in my household. 

I had went to a "Women in the Outdoors" event and loved range shootin'with a .22 rifle. My dad happens to love it as well so he went out andbought .22 rifleso we could have a hobby together. My motherwas TOTALLY against having a rifle in the house and didn't want inhere. My parents grew up in the same rural town but the two familieshave different ideas of guns. My dad had sat down with my brother andinformed him of gun safety. He informed that the gun was never to beloaded in the house and that he was not to touch it except on therange. It also has a gun lock on it that requires a key to unlock andmy father and I are the only ones with the key. After lots of talks andarguements my father and I took my mom and brother on to a range. Well,needless to say, everytime dad and I go to the range my brother and momfollow!

If I ever had to 'take care of' my rabbits I would use it to do so.However, for now my aunt 'takes care of' my rabbits when needed. Ihardly take rabbits to the vet because when having so many if can getquite expensive. If I can't fix the problem myself and withthe help of other rabbit breeder friends then theres not much hope. Ihave more knowledge in curing my rabbits then any vet in my area does.:shock:

~*~Amanda~*~
breeder of Dwarf Hotots


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## bluebird (Jan 10, 2005)

I dont know too many people that carry a gun inthere purse.we dont all have guns. okay i do, but we dont own any hand guns.I was raised around guns and hunting.I never looked at a canadian license plate and thought they are unarmed.bluebird


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## RaspberrySwirl (Jan 10, 2005)

*bluebird wrote: *


> Inever looked at a canadian license plate and thought they areunarmed.bluebird


Actually until MyBunnyBoys just told us,I never knew they couldn't have a gun....and I consider myself fairlywell educated about most things.Maybe this is one of thosethings that more of a "criminal element" would focus on to use againsta Canadian.

Raspberry


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## Delphinum (Jan 10, 2005)

And why just Canadians?! A Britishaccent is an immediate sign of no guns! In fact, in mostplaces, just having a different accent brands you a tourist so youbecome a target for criminals. :? 

For example,my friends and Iwere in Dublin and allof us have Scottish accents. Having been out for a few hours,we decided to get a taxi back to the hostel we were stayingin. For a 2 minute journey, the taxi driver charged us 25euros! We'd all had a few drinks and thought that maybe itwas just expensive in Dublin... the next night, however, we werecharged 5 euros for the same journey! :X Livid!

I didn't know Canadians didn't have guns either Raspberry, that's my thing I've learnt for the day! LOL 

Ang xx


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## m.e. (Jan 10, 2005)

My dad owns quite a few guns. Some are for targetshooting/hunting (hasn't had any succuss yet ), but most are WWI-eraantiques that he has restored. I _personally_ don't like to handleguns. I dunno. . .too much power, makes me feel uncomfortable. But myyounger brother and sister know how to properly handle weapons, how toact responsibly with them, and of course, regardless of that the ammois always locked away. I don't really "like" guns, per se, but I don'tmind having them in the house. I think it really demistifies them forkids, they're not some forbidden fruit, they know what guns can do andwhat not to do with guns.

As far as dispatching an animal, I personally feel more comfortablewith a lethal injection. I just want to be there when they die, Icouldn't handle my last memory of them with a gun. I don't have aproblem with the practice, I just wouldn't be able to do it.


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jan 10, 2005)

Well we can have guns, but you have to have itregistered now and what not. People here generally don't have them andmost don't know how to use them!

And when I meant that Canadians are easy targets, I didn't mean theaverage person was going to come up to us and shoot us! I meant thatwe're easy targets for theives.


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## Jems (Jan 10, 2005)

*MyBunnyBoys wrote:*


> Well we can have guns, but you have to have it registerednow and what not.


I personally don't have any guns and don't care to have them in myhouse although my b/f and sons like to hunt. The main reasonis there are kids in the house and even though they are taught aboutguns and told never to touch them without an adult-I know my kids andone of them would just be showing off and bring out the guns.

But I do believe that guns have to be registered here in the US as welland background checks are supposed to be done before the sale iscomplete. People convicted of a felony (and maybeothers) are not allowed to possess guns. Like everything elsethough there is always a ways around things. Guns get soldillegally on the streets every day.


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jan 10, 2005)

I wa not saying that's the difference betweenCanada and the USA. I was saying the whole mentality of guns isdifferent between Canada and the USA. People here don't carry themaround for protection (I'm not saying everyone does). The chances ofrunning into someone carrying a gun in the USA (notnecessarilywith harm indended to anyone)is muchlarger than in Canada. I do believe people can be charged withPossession of a Weapon if caught with a gun in a public place hereunless you have a specific reason for carrying one (eg. policeofficers). Not a lot of people have guns here; farmers probably do haveguns because they use them to scare off coyotes or kill badgers, etc.

It's just the mentality that's different between Canada and the USA. Most Canadians probably don't even know how to use a gun.


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## pamnock (Jan 10, 2005)

*RaspberrySwirl wrote: *


> *sunnysideup wrote: *
> 
> 
> > I'm very impressed with your fourteen yr. old 'taking care of her' forhis mom and little brother, and then telling you she went instantly andwas not afraid. What a remarkable young man you havethere.
> ...




Ryan loves animals and has a good heart. He has also handledguns and hunted since he was very young and is a good sportsman with acompassionate heart. I'm very proud of him  It'svery important to me that an animal is treated with dignity, and it'swelfare looked after, no matter what it's purpose.

Pam


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## pamnock (Jan 10, 2005)

*pamnock wrote: *


> There is actually a huge sign as you drive into our town that states"Lose your gun, lose your rights". (or something to that effect)
> 
> 
> Pam




I read the sign as we drove home today-- it actually states:

"Lose your gun, lose your Liberty"


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## m.e. (Jan 10, 2005)

MyBunnyBoys wrote:


> It's just the mentality that's different between Canada and theUSA. Most Canadians probably don't even know how to use a gun.



Neither do most Americans  According to TV shows, American cities arerife with gun violence, and gun crimes are almost everywhere! heh. .._right_. Guns are around, yes. But they're really not asprominent as you may think. Hunters comprise the majority of gunowners, followed by people who shoot for target, as a sport (an Olympicone, I might add), and those who carry them for protection and/orcriminal intent. The last category is quite miniscule, when you look atthe rest of the U.S. population. 

*edit*

And in light of Pam's post, I will add that there is a subculture ofgun owners that are more. . .radical. It's not that they're violent oraggressive, they just really like their 2nd Amendment rights . Butagain, they really don't represent the larger body of Americans. WhereI live there are *very* strict firearms ordinances.


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jan 10, 2005)

Yes I know that. I don't think guns areeverywhere in the US. I'm just saying that it is more than Canada. Ifyou were to take a percentage of Canadians that own guns and know howto use them, and then did the same for the US, you would end up with ahigher number in the USA.

I know that guns are everywhere, we hear about shootings all the time here.

But I'm stopping now because I'm not getting my point across as to what I meant.


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## pamnock (Jan 10, 2005)

Exactly. Guns seem to be more prominentin low income, gang ridden areas, in pockets surrounding bigcities. My husband has worked in some pretty bad areas inCleveland, Ohio and we've been to some bad areas in Columbus,Ohio. Primarily it's the gang members shooting eachother with assult weapons.

I'm actually more concerned about someone stabbing me with a knife than shooting me with a gun.

Pam


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## m.e. (Jan 10, 2005)

I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood. What Ithought you were getting across was some *ahem* grade school MichaelMoore logic regarding the differences between the U.S. and Canada.

Sorry for the confusion


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## LindseyandKen (Jan 10, 2005)

I haven't posted on this thread yet deliberately,as I have been thinking about it a lotand must admit tofeeling a little uneasy about the topic - yes, I am completely aware ofthe Canada/USA difference in gun culture, but there's an even wider gapbetween the USA and the UK.

I have a lot of thoughts running through my head after reading people'scontributions. On the one hand, I fully understand that a child broughtup in such a culture is less likely to take an unhealthy interst inguns, their presence not being a 'novelty' as such, but the prevalenceof gun owners and huntersdoes seem strange to me, as does thenotion of 'taking care of' your own rabbit.

Maybe it's because I'm a pet owner and not a breeder (not that Iquestion a breeder's care or concern for their rabbits) but Ipersonally could never administer euthanasia to a pet of mine, andfinancial status regardless, would always take an ill pet to the vet.

I spoke a lot with Ken about this post as it did affect me, and agreedwith his sentiment that such an 'exit' would be significantly lessstressful for a suffering animal, but I still feel uneasy about it, andkeep thinking about this post - I'm not even sure why as I'm notquestioning the ethics or that Pam and family love their bunnies. Ijust feel weird. :?

I hope no-one takes offence to these comments; I just wantedtoget it off my chest and see if others might be able to seewhere I'm coming from.

Lindsey


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## A2BUNLOVER (Jan 10, 2005)

I'm withLindsey on this one. 

However, I will go as far as to say I was disturbed by Pam's son"taking care of" the bun. Iam not questioningPam's ethics or love for her rabbits.I've read many, many posts where she has helped another poster with their rabbit's health issues. It's clear to me she lovesrabbits and is very knowledgeable about them. (I've been following the forum for a couple weeks but never posted.)

I've always been of the mind if I can't afford vet care for my pet,that I shouldn't have one. My little Sidney has cost me more in vet care in 3 years than my dog did in 15 years. Is he worth it? You bet. 

I don't mean to offend anyone but this is just my opinion.


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## RaspberrySwirl (Jan 10, 2005)

I'll try to treadgently and hope my usual gift for words helps me now....I'm quitecertain it has a lot to do with how and where you are raised. Iunderstand and I'm sure Pam does to, how you could feel uneasy with apractice you are not familiar with. I personally have never had to putdown an animal with a gun but it has been done in my family. It wascommon for someone else to take the chore over from the family memberwho was closest to the pet because even though it is the most humane inthose situations we might find ourselves in (when euthanasia isn't achoice) it is still difficult. Though I know it isdifficult,all I can say is you have to remove the violence ofthe act from your perception. If you can try to imagine yourself as aperson out on a range with your horse who may have been your closestfriend and companion and may have saved your life countless times, andhe is fatally injured and in pain. He is suffering and the only way toend it is with the gun you have at hand. You are doing it with love.It's not like youwould wave it around and scare him and he'dknow what you were going to do. You'd speak to him and a calm andloving voice and tell him thanks for the good times and say yourgoodbyes....he would never know what happened. That's the way aresponsible person who chooses to end an animals life with means otherthan a veterinarians assistance would choose to do it. Calmly,humanely, and with dignity. I know it's uncomfortable to think about,but most matters that revolve arounddeath are. Perhaps thistopic is more so because we take matters into our ownhandsrather than giving the responsibility to someone else.

RaspberrySwirl


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## pamnock (Jan 10, 2005)

I have a friend who works at a vets office andwas disturbed at some of the stories I had heard about incidents at theoffice and lies told to pet owners.

Also, having heard of a number of "botched" euthanasia attempts byveterinarians that resulted in trauma to the animal andemotional distress to the owner, I'm far more comfortable knowing thatI can guarantee death to be instantaneous and the rabbit will notstruggle and panic.

_*We raise the rabbits and we will take the responsibilityfor them until the very end because we care so much forthem.*_ 



Pam


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## pamnock (Jan 10, 2005)

Raspberry,


You explained it so much better than I could have. 

Pam


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## RaspberrySwirl (Jan 10, 2005)

I have also heardsome terrible stories about euthanasia. I researched this when I had toput my dog down and I know for a fact that there are cheaper optionsavailable to vets that cause animals to be paralyzed and while theyappear to be relaxed and falling asleep they are actually in pain. Myvet explained all of it to me. He actually showed me some books andsuch on it and showed me the vials and medications and made sure I feltcomfortable with what I was doing to my dog. I had known my vet for 20years so I was comfortable anyway, but putting an animal to sleep hasit's own worries......

Raspberry


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## RaspberrySwirl (Jan 10, 2005)

*pamnock wrote: *


> Raspberry,
> 
> 
> You explained it so much better than I could have.
> ...


It's easier for me...I'm not the one having to defend my actions...


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jan 10, 2005)

*m.e. wrote: *


> What Ithought you were getting across was some *ahem* grade school MichaelMoore logic regarding the differences between the U.S. and Canada.


Well I have never seen a Micheal Moore production myself, but from whatI've heard they are rather compelling. I'm not inclined to believe themthough, from what I've heard, they are his opinion and his opinion only.

My opinions are based on personal experience and family experiences with the USA.

I did forget one big point, I don't mean the guns just start as soon asyou cross the border (actually I find people in northern states to bevery similar to myself) but as you go farther south it graduallychanges to what a Canadian might perceive as scary.

I talk to many Texans and they themselves have said that the majorityof people have guns in their possession and many have them on them allthe time (I'm not saying EVERYONE).

Also, my cousin married a Texan and moved to the USA for a while. Wellshe 'got a rude awakening' so to speak when she realized the hugedifference in American and Canadian societies. Needless to say, herTexan husband moved up here with her and she swears she will never livein the States again.


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## RaspberrySwirl (Jan 10, 2005)

Texas might be a bit of an awakening for a Canadian!


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jan 10, 2005)

lol, yes it is. But I've met people like thatfrom all over ther States -- Iowa, Indiana, California, etc. I alsohave family in Kansas that thinks the Canadian way of life is totally'out of this world'.


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## m.e. (Jan 10, 2005)

I'm in a Canadian border state, so I supposeyou're right, things are kind of similar. Which is why, maybe, I didn'tunderstand you the first time. My bad 

Other areas of the country are _vastly_ different than here :shock:


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jan 10, 2005)

*m.e. wrote: *


> I'm ina Canadian border state, so I suppose you're right, things are kind ofsimilar. Which is why, maybe, I didn't understand you the firsttime.


Actually that's my fault! It hit me just as I was leaving to go back toschool for my last class of the day that I had never made it clear.It's kind of like the stereotypical view that all Canadians live inigloos. I have to laugh at that because some peoplehonestly believe I do (it amazes me that they think the snow juststarts at the border). With those few people, I like to play with theirminds and say we buy internet access by the pail. 

I do realize the whole idea doesn't change as soon as you cross theborder but I'm sure west and east differ in their viewa, too.


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## Bo B Bunny (Jan 10, 2005)

*RaspberrySwirl wrote:*


> how you could feeluneasy with a practice you are not familiar with. I personally havenever had to put down an animal with a gun but it has been done in myfamily. It was common for someone else to take the chore over from thefamily member who was closest to the pet because even though it is themost humane in those situations we might find ourselves in (wheneuthanasia isn't a choice) it is still difficult.RaspberrySwirl



Raspberry, this whole comment was very good, I just trimmed it because it was long LOL!...... 

Anyhow, it reminded me of something within my family I foundodd. My husband was raised on farms, had cows and pigs,etc. He helped with cows who had trouble giving birth andtook care of these situations that sometimes arise when an animal getshurt.

Right before I had one of the kids, he was on a job with his companyand the work was being done next to a farm. One day thefarmer came out and asked for help with his cow who wascalfing. So hubby and another buddy went running.All three men helped pull a breech baby out .... it was fine andhealthy and so was mom.

So, I was asking him, "How come you hate going into the delivery roombut can deal with this stuff?" (he goes with me, he justdidn't like it lol)

His response was, "They are not my children" 

In other words, the closer it is to you, the harder it is. Hedoesn't like worrying and waiting and seeing the whole process whenit's his children. 

I think Pam's son showed maturity, and compassion in helpinghis mother. Those are some things that a lot of kids thesedays don't have. Growing up in an agriculteral setting is alot different than growing up in the city, etc. Kids learn todo work that some men and women find difficult, when they are veryyoung!


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## sunnysideup (Jan 11, 2005)

RaspberrySwirl wrote:


> I'll try to tread gently and hopemy usual gift for words helps me now....I'm quite certain it has a lotto do with how and where you are raised. I understand and I'm sure Pamdoes to, how you could feel uneasy with a practice you are not familiarwith.



Very nicely put, Raspberry. I wanted to comment on the point that itdoes have a lot to do with where you are raised and what you are usedto. I'll use a different situation than putting animals down to make mypoint. I have two friends who birthed their children at home. At first,all I could think of was, "ARE YOU CRAZY?". And then of course Iwondered how they could 'risk' doing something that important at home.But the more I spoke with them about the issue, and this was over thecourse of a couple of years, I began to see what a beautiful experienceit was for them. I ended up coming to the conclusion that I wished Icould have done it myself! 
Most of us are used to having 'professionals' do things for us thatpeople used to always do themselves. People used to birth their ownbabies, take care of their own dead, butcher their own meat (I could sonever wring a chickens neck!) etc. No, I'm not saying we need to goback to an 'old' way of live because we have made wonderful strides inmedical and sanitary practices which have greatly improved our lives,but on the other hand that doesn't mean that you have to throw out thebaby with the bathwater, either. The homebirths these families did weredone with intelligence and caution and in tandem with a doctor andhospital. 
Back to the other issue: I didn't grow up around hunting or guns, b/cmy dad is into opera and cooking, but with my husband's family it is away of life. I don't like it, but I'm not against it either. My husbandhas taken great pains to teach my son gun safety and integrity inhunting practices. (one big no-no in hunting is that you NEVER shootsomething and then just leave it in the woods, i.e. shoot something forno good reason. Dh will stay in the woods for hours until he finds theanimal. Once he couldn't find a deer that he was pretty sure he shotand I thought he would never get over it. Now this may offend someoneelse, believe me I could never hunt, but these people are not thebackwards idiots they are portrayed as in the media sometimes. Thereare goofy people from every ideal on the planet, but they are not thenorm)
Pam's son has been taught to be responsible and do the right thing,which is harder than keeping an animal around who is in pain b/c youwant someone else to do it. He has been taught to be humane about it,all while taking care of his mother and younger sibling. I wish morechildren were taught these values. He will grow up to be a valuablehusband and father, and we could use a lot more of these. 
I hope nobody minds my .02!


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## LindseyandKen (Jan 11, 2005)

*pamnock wrote:*


> I'm far more comfortable knowing that I canguarantee death to be instantaneous and the rabbit will not struggleand panic.
> 
> _*We raise the rabbits and we will take the responsibilityfor them until the very end because we care so much forthem.*_
> 
> ...


Pam,

I really hope you didn't find my comments on this thread offensive: youpersonally have helped me many times with my own bunnies, and the factthat you love your rabbits and treat them with kindness was never inquestion, nor were the actions your son took in ending the rabbit'spain. 

Perhaps it was merely thatI have so many new kits, and amfeeling extremely sentimental towards them; perhaps it was that we inthe UK do not have such access to guns; perhaps it was that theprevious day I had argued with my brother who hunts (I am extremelyagainst hunting) and he had killed several birds. For whatever reason Ifelt strange, I had hoped to stress in the post that it was_*my*_ opinion - *my* feeling weird - that mademe write; not that I took issue with the situation whatsoever.

I hope this has clarified my intention a little more - apologies if Ihurt anyone's feelings or made them feel they had to defend themselves.

Lindsey


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## Fergi (Jan 11, 2005)

I just wanted to say that not only does thisboard help me learn about my bunnies but it is also a great site tolearn about interpersonal communication and ethics!

Fergi's mom


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## pamnock (Jan 11, 2005)

Great post Sunnysideup! I liked thepoint you made that "Most of us are used to having 'professionals' dothings for us that people used to always do themselves."

I grew up on a small farm, where our family provided for ourselves,raising much of our food and "doctoring" our own animals.Those experiences and work ethic are still with me to this day and whenI have an animal, I take responsibility for it. Anything lessis not acceptable to me, and yes, sometimes this involves some thingsthat are not pleasant.

Lindsey, I think that once again, we have been given an example of whythis board is so unique and so special to all of us in the fact that wecan express our feelings (including our discomfort about what someoneelse has done) and do it in amature manner. Thereis certainly no reason for you, or anyone else to apologize forexpressing your feelings and I'm glad you felt comfortable enough hereto do so. 

I also respect the fact that some people were very disturbed by thisand I apologize for upsetting anyone. I think that people aremost disturbed by it because, as the AMVA points out, it is"aesthetically unpleasant" andmany prefer the more"sanitized" method of injection.

The following is taken froma report by theAMVA(American Medical Veterinary Association) and their determination onusing gunshot as a form of euthanasia:





[align=center]*Gunshot
*[/align]

In some circumstances, gunshot may be the only practical method ofeuthanasia. It should be performed by highly skilled personnel using afirearm appropriate for the situation. For captive animals, the firearmshould be aimed so that the projectile enters the brain, causinginstant unconsciousness.[suP]30,78-80[/suP] For wildlifeand other freely roaming animals, the preferred target area should bethe head or neck. 


_Advantages _- (1) Unconsciousness is instantaneous if theprojectile destroys most of the brain. (2) Under field conditions,gunshot may be the only effective method available. 


_Disadvantages_ - (1) It may be dangerous to personnel. (2) It isaesthetically unpleasant. (3) Under field conditions, it may bedifficult to hit the vital target area. 


_Recommendations_ - When other methods cannot be used, anaccurately delivered gunshot is an acceptable method of euthanasia.When the animal can be appropriately restrained, the penetratingcaptive bolt is preferred to gunshot. Gunshot should not be used forroutine euthanasia of animals in animal control situations, such asmunicipal pounds or shelters. 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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## A2BUNLOVER (Jan 11, 2005)

*pamnock wrote: *


> Ihave a friend who works at a vets office and was disturbed at some ofthe stories I had heard about incidents at the office and lies told topet owners.
> 
> Also, having heard of a number of "botched" euthanasia attempts byveterinarians that resulted in trauma to the animal andemotional distress to the owner, I'm far more comfortable knowing thatI can guarantee death to be instantaneous and the rabbit will notstruggle and panic.
> 
> ...


I guess I'm having a hard time envisioning a rabbit being shot as abetter way to go out than a lethal injection. That beingsaid, I realize that there probably are more "botched" euthanasiaattempts than I'd like to think aboutbut I think if I werechoosing how I would want to leave this world, I don't think I'd chooseto be shot. It just seems like such a violent way togo. That's just my opinion though.

The other issue for me was that it felt like the rabbit was beingdisposed of because it could no longer produce kits. Maybethat wasn't the case but that is what I took from it and that was theother thing thatbothered me. I realize that I amdifferent from a breeder in that Sidney is my pet. I amextremely devoted to my pets and would move Heaven and Earth for them,including paying vet bills that I cannot afford. Like I saidbefore, if I can't afford to pay for vet care then I shouldn't have apet. _That's just the way I was brought up._

I think we need to just "agree to disagree" on this. I haveno hard feelings orill will towards anyone here and I hope noone feels any towards me.


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## m.e. (Jan 11, 2005)

A2BUNLOVER wrote:


> I think if I were choosing how I would want to leave this world,I don't think I'd choose to be shot. It just seems like such a violentway to go.



You're a human. A rabbit does not know what a gun is, and has no concept of "violence"


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## pamnock (Jan 11, 2005)

*A2BUNLOVER wrote: *


> I think we need to just "agree to disagree" on this. I haveno hard feelings orill will towards anyone here and I hope noone feels any towards me.




You are indeed wiseto state thatthere are timeswhen we just have to "agree to disagree", even when someones views areso completely different from our own. It's not always easy,but being able to step back and not take someones opinion as apersonalattackis the key ingredient to such aneclectic group of peoplebeing able to get along on this board.

Pam


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## RaspberrySwirl (Jan 11, 2005)

I just mentioned toCarolyn last night that one of the things I enjoy so much about thisforum is that we can thoroughly discuss a topic and have opposing viewsfrom beginning to end, then let it go and move on to the next topicwith big smiles and no hard feelings. Each topic has a different "pro"with information that informs and enlightens many participants. That'scool! 

This is one of my favorite quotes from this thread-

Sunnysideup said, regarding Pam's son, "Iwish more children were taught these values. He will grow up to be avaluable husband and father, and we could use a lot more ofthese."

RaspberrySwirl


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## Dwarf_Angel04 (Jan 11, 2005)

*A2BUNLOVER wrote:*


> I guess I'm having a hard time envisioning a rabbit beingshot as a better way to go out than a lethal injection. Thatbeing said, I realize that there probably are more "botched" euthanasiaattempts than I'd like to think aboutbut I think if I werechoosing how I would want to leave this world, I don't think I'd chooseto be shot. It just seems like such a violent way togo. That's just my opinion though.



Let me give your another point of view.  

The noise a gun makes would be the only thing a rabbit may notice whenbeing shot. However, from my experience and discussion with anotherrabbit breeder friend we came to the conclusion that a rabbit may noteven hear the noise. The noise a gun makes happens when the bullet isreleased. Therefore with a bullet traveling fast the bullet should hitthe rabbit before it 'hears' the noise. Thus the rabbitwouldn't know what happened to them. Now don't quote me onthis but its from my personal experience with range shooting etc. 

Now, I know I hate shots! I also know how bad my cats tense up whengiven a shot. When given the lethal injection theanimalcould feel tense and scared of the shot. So the lastthing they would feel is 'pain'. 

Now I just through this out of the top of my head on my personal thoughts so I have no references to back up my thoughts. 

~*~Amanda~*~


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## Fergi (Jan 11, 2005)

When Ben had to be put to sleep theyputhim into a box and "puthim to sleep" beforeadministering the lethal injection so that he wasn't in any pain oreven aware at that point.

Fergi's mom


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## sunnysideup (Jan 11, 2005)

Fergi wrote:


> I just wanted to say that not only does this board help me learnabout my bunnies but it is also a great site to learn aboutinterpersonal communication and ethics!
> 
> Fergi's mom



Yes! My thirteen yr. old and I had a nice discussion about this threadwhich covered animal euthanasia, how geographical location "can"influence political/emotional/moral stances, and gun control. All inall, I thought a lot of meaty discussion for one thread.


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## sunnysideup (Jan 11, 2005)

RaspberrySwirl wrote:


> This is one of my favorite quotes from this thread-
> 
> Sunnysideup said, regarding Pam's son, "Iwish more children were taught these values. He will grow up to be avaluable husband and father, and we could use a lot more ofthese."
> 
> RaspberrySwirl



Soooo, any of you experienced bunnynappers wanna help us snatch him? Wecould claim we were going for bunnies and got him by accident. *furtivelooks*


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## Bo B Bunny (Jan 11, 2005)

I'm with ya! LOL!


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## Bo B Bunny (Jan 11, 2005)

*RaspberrySwirl wrote:*


> I just mentioned to Carolynlast night that one of the things I enjoy so much about this forum isthat we can thoroughly discuss a topic and have opposing views frombeginning to end, then let it go and move on to the next topic with bigsmiles and no hard feelings. Each topic has a different "pro" withinformation that informs and enlightens many participants. That's cool!


It is very cool and highly unusual for a message board and many other forums.

Like I've said before, I think bunny owners are somehow more calm or something than other people!


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## pamnock (Jan 11, 2005)

*Fergi wrote: *


> WhenBen had to be put to sleep they puthim into a box and"puthim to sleep" before administering the lethal injectionso that he wasn't in any pain or even aware at that point.
> 
> Fergi's mom




That's the way it _should_ be done (ideally).

I still get so sad seeing those photos of Ben -- what a love he was.

Pam


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## Bo B Bunny (Jan 11, 2005)

pam (and fergi) 

I know exactly what you are saying. I was here only a shorttime when big ben was lost. I read what fergi wrote and hadtears come to my eyes. When I see his pic with his babies Ihave had tears roll down my cheek. 

I don't know what it was about that big boy, but he touched us all insome way. I particulary love that one pic where he looks socheeky like he's smiling in some onery way!


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## Fergi (Jan 11, 2005)

Thanks Pam and Bo, that really means a lot to me.It is still hard every day... I see a picture of him and cry, someonecomments on him and I cry, I think of him and I cry. He will alwayshold a piece of my heart and I can't wait to be reunited with himsomeday. Thankfully Diva seems to recognize this whole in my heart andshe is doing her best to help fill it back up. She really is a love andhelps me cope with not having my Big Ben around. I agree that this isthe ideal way to euthanize an animal except that it is not alwayspractical. I am glad that that is how Ben went over the RainBow Bridge.

Fergi's mom


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## Bo B Bunny (Jan 11, 2005)

I'm sorry if I made you cry, Fergi, but I didwant to say what you couldn't see or know. I really thinkabout Ben often. 

Diva, she's adorable! She's going to be a big girl isn't she?


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jan 11, 2005)

We all miss Ben. He was like one ofthe unofficial mascots of the board. Ben was a beutiful boys and we allmiss him so much, maybe not as much as you do, but we feel for you.


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## RaspberrySwirl (Jan 11, 2005)

*sunnysideup wrote: *


> RaspberrySwirl wrote:
> 
> 
> > This is one of my favorite quotes from this thread-
> ...


Actually....he's been on my list eversince I heard he can shear a rabbit in 7 seconds flat or somethinginsane like that! I was kind of hoping he'd be at the boathouse party.That should make the logistics of snatching him a bit easier!

RaspberrySwirl


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## pamnock (Jan 11, 2005)

*RaspberrySwirl wrote: *


> Actually....he's been on my list eversince I heard he can shear a rabbit in 7 seconds flat or somethinginsane like that! I was kind of hoping he'd be at the boathouse party.That should make the logistics of snatching him a bit easier!
> 
> RaspberrySwirl




I'll never let you find him LOL 

He's pretty quick with the shearing -- although not quite 7 seconds LOL 

"Skin Mat-ers" like Sebastian take longer though.

Pam


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## pamnock (Jan 11, 2005)

Ryan loves the animals and has such a soothing effect on them (it's fun to watch him shear the Angoras).

I had gone to the store to buy Matthew one of those fighting fish, butthey didn't have any, so we got 2 goldfish and I put them in the vasethat I had bought for the fighting fish. The two littlegoldfish seemed very content, so Matthew, Stephanie and I left for a"midnight madness" rabbit show.

Ryan had come home later and noticed the fish in distress (they werenot getting enough air in the vase). I received a phone calland subsequent lecture from him about how the goldfish could not be putin that type of container. He proceeded to put them in alarge bucket and built an aerator from a small motor andLego! The fish were saved and are still alive today (hebought them a fish tank and set it all up for them).

He's got a good head on his shoulders and is veryresponsible. He's 14, has his own checking account.Owned a car, which he recently sold to purchase a motorcycle.He loves to work on things and is very mechanical. (He wrote a researchproject on motors last year). He also works at the local hardware store.

Ever since he could get his hands on anything, he would take itapart. I would appreciate however, if hewould put my other computer back together that is now in pieces on mybedroom floor!

He's also a very thrifty shopper, so great to take with you to the store to stave off those impulse purchases.

When he was little, he had beautiful golden shoulder length hair -- everyone though he was a girl LOL

Pam

Ry and his dog . . .


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## RaspberrySwirl (Jan 11, 2005)

*pamnock wrote:*


> *RaspberrySwirl wrote:*
> 
> 
> > Actually....he's been on my list eversince I heard he can shear a rabbit in 7 seconds flat or somethinginsane like that! I was kind of hoping he'd be at the boathouse party.That should make the logistics of snatching him a bit easier!
> ...


I might have to use bait to find him!


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## RaspberrySwirl (Jan 11, 2005)

that is sooooo funny! You were posting his picture when I was posting hers!


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## RaspberrySwirl (Jan 11, 2005)

Ryan sounds like hehas a lot of his Mom's traits! Of course since we don'tknow Dad I guess we can't give you all the credit! He sounds like awonderful young man. I know from experience that there are not enoughlike him. I'm sure you are so proud. 

Raspberry


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## Carolyn (Jan 11, 2005)

Little do you _both_ know, I'm going to take them: Matthew_and_ Sebastian's Little Girl and Sebastian. Afterall, they preferTucker Town.

Sure...Go Ahead...Talk about Ryan and the Beauty; post your pictures.

We'll just sit back. You won't even know we're here. (I'm getting The Best of _The Best_.  ) 

Go ahead now...talk amongst yourselves....we're not listening. 

-Carolyn


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## RaspberrySwirl (Jan 11, 2005)




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## Carolyn (Jan 11, 2005)

You really think you're All That, don'tcha, Raspberry Swirl.

Well, you'll see!!!

YOU'LL SEE!!!

-Carolyn


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jan 11, 2005)

You 2 are hilarious! Shesh if I ever need a good laugh I know who to come to.


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## Carolyn (Jan 11, 2005)

She's annoying! :X


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jan 11, 2005)

*Carolyn wrote: *


> She's annoying! :X


_*Shakes her head and laughs.*_

And the level of maturity just drastically decreased.


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## Carolyn (Jan 11, 2005)




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## MyBabyBunnies (Jan 11, 2005)

_*Whispers to Carolyn.*_

I think we need to do some bunny and kid napping! Sebastian and his little girl!


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## pamnock (Jan 12, 2005)

*RaspberrySwirl wrote: *


> I might have to use bait to find him!




That is NOT playing fair 

Pam


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## pamnock (Jan 12, 2005)

*RaspberrySwirl wrote:*


> Of coursesince we don't know Dad I guess we can't give you all thecredit!




A most awesome man 

Pam


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## Bo B Bunny (Jan 12, 2005)

*pamnock wrote: *


> Ry and his dog . . .


What a handsome boy and he has a little jack russel. Gotta love him!

He sounds so mature and responsible! He also sounds veryintelligent. Knowing to give the fish the aerator andBUILDING one,... very impressive!

Could I borrow him to maybe help my son learn to be a bit more responsible? I'll return him...... in a few years!


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## pamnock (Jan 12, 2005)

I must admit that I was very concerned when I sawsome type of electrical "torture" device inRyan'sroom. It had some type of transformer at the end that pluggedinto the outlet, and 2 very thick copper wires coming out ofit. Ryan wasn't home at the time, so I took the device andshowed it to my husband. I was pretty upset because it lookedlike something used to electrocute someone.

My husband (an electrician) looked at it and laughed -- he said, "That's just a homemade battery charger." LOL

Ryan has wired his room for surround sound, wired large speakers onto his TV and has fixed just about everything.

Ryan's mechanical abilitiesall started when he was veryyoung. He took a pair of scissors and with surgicalprecision, removed his preciousstuffed monkey'sface,arms and feet. . .

Since that time, everything in the house has been taken apart so he could see what was inside.

Pam


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## RaspberrySwirl (Jan 12, 2005)

*Carolyn wrote: *


> She's annoying! :X


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## RaspberrySwirl (Jan 12, 2005)

*pamnock wrote:*


> *RaspberrySwirl wrote:*
> 
> 
> > Of coursesince we don't know Dad I guess we can't give you all thecredit!
> ...


I can imagine! He would haveto be to be the life partner of such a great woman and the head of sucha terrific family. Those kids have gotta come from goodstock!



Raspberry


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## Carolyn (Jan 12, 2005)

*RaspberrySwirl wrote:*


> *Carolynwrote: *
> 
> 
> > She's annoying! :X



RS,

You knew I was kidding, right?


* * * *

MBB,

I've been planning it for months!


-Carolyn


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## pamnock (Jan 12, 2005)

*RaspberrySwirl wrote: *


> He would have to beto be the life partner of such a great woman . . .
> Raspberry




Oh please -- I'm lucky he puts up with me LOL

Pam


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jan 12, 2005)

*RaspberrySwirl wrote:*


> *Carolynwrote: *
> 
> 
> > She's annoying! :X


Don't you feel the love?


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## RaspberrySwirl (Jan 12, 2005)

*Carolyn wrote: *


> RS,
> 
> You knew I was kidding, right?
> 
> ...


Actually, I was just gathering up my bonbons, potato chips and ice cream. Trying to decide which blankie I'mgoing to drag out....staying in my pj's all day...just gonna lay on thecouchsulking...



RaspberrySwirl


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## m.e. (Jan 12, 2005)




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## Carolyn (Jan 12, 2005)

She's a Real Piece of Work, isn't she, m.e.???





-Carolyn


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jan 12, 2005)

RaspberrySwirl, m.e., and Carolyn:

_*Rolls on the floor laughing hysterically.*_

Ok now if I can stop laughing for one minute I'm off to feed the spoiled bunnies!


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## pamnock (Jan 12, 2005)

And yes . . .

The boy also sews!!!!!! His fingers are sorefromsewing elastic strips on his new expensive biking kneepads -- which of course, Ryan felt needed modifying LOL

Ryan's sewing reminded me of an incident last year when one of ourtenants brought over his wife's blouse on Easter Sunday asking if Icould sew the button back on because they were getting ready to leavefor church and his wife (who is my age) didn't know how to fix thebutton???????? Talk about helpless people not being able todo anything for themselves :X

Pam


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## Buck Jones (Jan 12, 2005)

"Good on 'im, Matie!" I,too,also sew and for the same reason(s), mostly.I've refitted various camping items to my own specifications andcreated new onesby sewing when I couldn't find or affordexactly what I wanted. Did the same thing for some lingeriefor the Missus a goodly number of years ago, too! But, that'sanother story.

Never could remember how to thread the machine, to this day.Always needed the Missus to do that for me, but once threaded I was offand running. I made tents, tarps, net windows and doors, stuff sacksand gear bags for specific items during our back backing days when weworked for the National Forest Service in _Grizzley Bear High Country_in Montana.

That's another story, too,I'm afraid.

Buck


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## RaspberrySwirl (Jan 13, 2005)

*Buck Jones wrote: *


> "Did the same thing for some lingerie for the Missus a goodly number ofyears ago, too! But, that's another story.
> 
> ........during our back backing days when we worked for the NationalForest Service in _Grizzley Bear High Country _in Montana.
> 
> ...


Enough with the teasing and out with the stories!!!! 

Raspberry


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## Buck Jones (Jan 13, 2005)

Ahh, neither is terribly interesting and havenothing to do with rabbits. Must admit, some of our "bearstories" were pretty funny though, but it is in the telling and not inthe writing I suspect.

Those would be an excellent types of stories to relate over a drink ortwo at the Bunny Boathouse Party. Suspectyou and Mark might have one or a dozen you could pass on,too! LOL

Buck


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## RaspberrySwirl (Jan 13, 2005)

Well....there isthe night I had a few too many cocktails at the lake, I wanted a fewsmooches, he did not...and he locked me out of the camper at3:00 am :shock:....What's a girl to do but dance on the picnic tableand sing?  You are right! We will have to exchange storiesat the boathouse party! 

Raspberry


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## Delphinum (Jan 13, 2005)

Only the men and me sew in our family... Mygranddad's a whiz on the sewing machine. I can never rememberhow to thread it either Buck! LOL But I do crossstitch. My gran's arthritis prevents her from sewing, so mygrumps does it. My dad also hemseverythingbecausehe can never get the right trouserlength. :? I think all men and women should betaught how to sew, cook, wire plugs, etc because we're all going tohave to do it at one time or another.

Can I borrow your son Pam? I need him to teach Dan a fewthings!  He has a degree in mechanicalengineering, but knows nothing about fixing things! *sigh*

Ang xx


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## pamnock (Jan 13, 2005)

Only on thisincredible forum could apotentially volatile threadbe steeredinto "MenRock" and "Raspberry Revealed" LOL

Ryan is certainly available for hire 

Pam


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## RaspberrySwirl (Jan 13, 2005)

*pamnock wrote: *


> "Raspberry Revealed"
> 
> Pam


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## JimD (Jan 13, 2005)

You mean to tell me that there's a machine to do the sewing :?.

The only sewing "machine" I've ever used is the little skinny silverthingy with the reeeeealy tiny hole at one end that they say you asupposed to put the thread through. Easier said than done .

Actually I have sewed quite a bit and have created similar adaptaionsas Buck has. Not quite as exotic as lingerie or Grizzly Gear, though .

But honestly I have never used a machine. Everything was done by hand. Even my daughters Pocahontus costume!

Jim


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