# Dos and Don'ts when selecting two rabbits to breed.



## Flashy (Jul 14, 2009)

I know some of these, but the conversation about the colours to cross and not cross made me wonder what you guys consider dos and don'ts when it comes to you breeding your buns (things like colour, type, size, breed, age, etc). 

I know you will all have many that are the same but each person may have their own dos and don't that other breeders don't (if you followed that sentence, well done!). Oh, and I know this may be quite extensive for you, so you can add to others lists or just add them as and when you think of them.

I thought it might be a useful resource for anyone whois trying to figure out which two buns to breed.


----------



## OakRidgeRabbits (Jul 14, 2009)

DO consider type over color, always. Color mistakes can be fixed, but the goal is _always_ outstanding type. Choose two rabbits that compliment each other's faults.

DON'T choose two rabbits with the same faults. This will only lock those faults into your herd and they will be harder, if not impossible, to breed out.

DO consider color after your type evaluation. Choose compatible colors that will likely produce showable colors.

DON'T be afraid to breed broken x broken or a pair that may produce unshowable colors if the type is there.

DO take temperament into consideration and DO cull any nasty, aggressive rabbits from the herd.

I may think of more along the way.


----------



## murph72 (Jul 14, 2009)

Ok, I'll bite first. And, yes, I did follow that one sentence. LOL

I look first at type if I'm looking to better my show stock (which is usually the case). I look for a bunny that has what my other that I plan to breed it is lacking...or something that is stronger in that bunny than in the mate. 

I like my does to be larger than my bucks for safety's sake. However, in some cases they are relatively the same size. I don't like to use a larger buck for fear the kits will be too large for mom to handle.

Sometimes I'll work with special colors. For example, I got a chocolate and a BEW to add to my Hollands. I looked for some that didn't have as long of a face, or as skinny of a face as you see in many of them. I'm looking to cross them into the torts that have a better type and back again to better the type in those two colors. 

As far as age, I like to breed around 6 months in does and as early as 4 to 6 months in bucks. The bucks will mature faster than the does. There are does that will have the ability to get pregnant at 4 months, but I personally feel 6 is a safer bet for her.

I personally do not breed full siblings to each other, though I know some that have with no problems. I will breed half-siblings and parents to children though. I've found this to be a safe way to better the line. However, I tend to only do this for a couple of generations before adding in "other blood" to the line. I then look for an addition to purchase that has a quality I think that line could improve upon. 

That's probably the most important things for me.


----------



## polly (Jul 14, 2009)

* always consider the fitness of both buck and doe (but especially doe) before mating.

* Always choose animals that do NOT contain the same fault.

* choose a pairing that will give you what you want out of a litter. ( a lot of nethies and lops have been bred to completely random colours which will screw up what you want in a litter) So always look at the rabbits genetic background of both buck and doe.

*Always breed for type first colour second as more points are given for type in the majority of breeds (not all though!)


----------



## j0292 (Jul 15, 2009)

*OakRidgeRabbits wrote:*


> DO cull any nasty, aggressive rabbits from the herd.



Sorry, what do you mean by cull?! :shock:

A 'nasty aggressive' rabbit's temperament can easily be changed from neutering IMHO.


----------



## CKGS (Jul 15, 2009)

You can change many things in animals but the basic temperment can't be changed, only controlled and 'tweaked'. I,personally, would rather see truly nasty animals pts than taking up homes otherwise healthy, good natured animals could have. Thats JMHO.


----------



## Flashy (Jul 15, 2009)

Thanks to all those who have contributed so far  The wider the dos and don'ts, the better I think, and it can give more insight to anyone reading the thread.


----------



## TinysMom (Jul 15, 2009)

I have had 2 truly nasty does and while I would not breed them (with my knowledge now) ....as they got older they calmed down and I wasn't scared anymore.

They really were "attack bunnies" for a long time.

One doe did have a litter here and her daughter FOXY LADY is a sweetie now too.


----------



## RAL Rabbitry (Jul 15, 2009)

I breed mini-rex and have to consider fur when I decide pairings. I also line-breed and take that into account. Type is first, fur is second, color is third although I wouldn't do a breeding that I thought would give me mediocre color. Condition and temperament are also taken into account. Some breeders will keep a doe on a very tight breeding schedule. I don't like to breed a doe that is still on a litter. I very rarely get an aggressive rabbit because they are handled from birth but if I do they are not bred.

Roger


----------



## BlueGiants (Jul 15, 2009)

If you really care about a breed, make sure the individual rabbits meet the standard for that breed. Don't breed rabbits that are too far over the standard weight, or in the case of the Flemish (or other giants), don't breed rabbits that don't make minimum weight.

Don't breed rabbits with major disqualifications.

Always consider the condition (health) of the rabbits. An underweight, stressed, sick doe will not be able to support a litter for a 31 day gestation and 6-8 weeks of nursing. Some rabbits can handle occasional back to back breedings, some can't. Know your animals and their history. 

Make sure they are disease and parasite free. 

Don't breed to early (know your breed and when is optimum age for a first litter). Don't breed too late... (breeding an older doe for the first time can result in a poor outcome for the doe and the babies.)


----------



## OakRidgeRabbits (Jul 15, 2009)

*j0292 wrote: *


> *OakRidgeRabbits wrote:*
> 
> 
> > DO cull any nasty, aggressive rabbits from the herd.
> ...



Cull means to remove from the breeding herd.

Also, there is a difference between hormonal and nasty, and breeders can see this difference. For instance, does are given some slack if they're normally a total sweetheart and then they have a litter and are slightly defensive about it. A rabbit like that generally wouldn't be immediately removed from the breeding program. However, a nasty rabbit is one that lunges, attacks, bites, grunts, etc. without warning and without reason. This *cannot* be fixed by neutering. Hormonal rabbits can, and breeders recognize that difference.

Generally breeders won't face this issue since the rabbits get attention everyday and are specifically being bred for temperament. So when a nasty one pops up, it's definitely not one you want to breed back in.:nerves1


----------



## BlueGiants (Jul 15, 2009)

I agree with Oakridge... most breeders can tell the difference between hormonal and unmitigated aggressive behavior. A truly nasty rabbit is a hazard and a danger to everyone. I could not, in good concience, sell/give/breed a nasty rabbit. I'd never forgive myself if some unsuspecting child was bitten and traumatized by a rabbit that came from me.

In 11 years of breeding Flemish, I've only run across ONE nasty Flemish... a buck that could NOT be handled under any circumstances. That rabbit weighed 18.2 lbs. and did some really serious damage to several people (including me, veryserious bites). We tried fora year to "gentle" him... he was neutered...no difference in behavior...he eventually went for my throat. He was immediately PTS. (Can you imagine what an 18 lb animal with sharp teeth could do to a kid?)


----------



## CKGS (Jul 15, 2009)

Kudos Bluegiants. I have never quite understood those who I have heard rehome truly nasty animals to get them out of breeding programs. I LOVE animals but I also know there are so many out there than IMO shouldn't we be saving the good ones and putting more effort into that than keeping and trying to change a temperment. 
I am also very glad to see that there are breeders of rabbits who do focus on temperment! Wonderful! Some have seen me as against breeders in general, this has NEVER been the case! I had a problem with breeders who only cared about type and color. They are out there, bybs or not. I am thrilled to 'know' breeders (from here) that are ones I would be happy to purchase a baby from. Kudos guys!


----------



## irishlops (Jul 16, 2009)

* dont breed siblings
*dont breed without a good reason or idea on how to look after kits or no homes


----------



## Bunnymom,K (Jul 16, 2009)

Have a solid foundation of knowledge on the breed you are working with and it's purpose- this will help you to better evaluate your own stock.

Always try to match a buck and doe that conform as closely to standard as possible and that compliment each other. 

If you are breeding for specific qualities, choose animals that will help you achieve your goal without forfeiting overall type, health and temperament.

Always breed animals that are healthy in good condition.

Never breed siblings. If you are going to line breed (mother x son etc.) be sure you know all the faults in the family line.

Always have a plan as to what you are going to do with the offspring BEFORE you breed (this means that if you plan to sell them- you have a list of potential homes before breeding). You are responsible for the welfare of each kit that you produce.


----------



## RAL Rabbitry (Jul 16, 2009)

What would you do with an agressive dog that training didn't help? The same thing should apply to rabbits as well.

Roger


----------



## Erins Rabbits (Jul 16, 2009)

*irishlops wrote: *


> * dont breed siblings
> *dont breed without a good reason or idea on how to look after kits or no homes



I have a rabbit that is the result of a sibling breeding, and he is perfectly fine. He's actually the best rabbit I own-, yes, I play favorites, and he is my big ol' lump of a bunny who's developed fine, produced offspring, etc. 

Inbreeding is commonplace and from what i've noticed (in my own herd, mind you) it doesn't make a difference in the offspring, so long as you know what you're doing.


----------



## OakRidgeRabbits (Jul 16, 2009)

*Erins Rabbits wrote: *


> *irishlops wrote: *
> 
> 
> > * dont breed siblings
> ...


Yep, I agree. Personally, I do not/would not do anything closer than parent/offspring breedings. But sibling breeding can take place and will not generally cause any issues as long as they are done correctly. The only reason NOT to do it is because it definitely locks in recessives. So while it can create an awesome rabbit, it can also lock in bad qualities too.


----------



## murph72 (Jul 17, 2009)

I also agree. It is more commonplace to see breeders using half-siblings rather than siblings who share both of the same parents. What they're looking to lock in is usually the strong genetics of the parent that they share, but are looking to better the offspring in some aspects that are present in the siblings. I personally have a buck that I plan to breed with his half-sister when she is of breeding age. They are both from a buck that has close to 20 show legs. They share his strong bone, but the brother has a better head and the sister has better ears. Breeding the two should lock in the great bone they inherited from their dad, but should help me to work on the characteristics that are strong in each of them. Most breeders usually will not do this for multiple generations. Three is usually the number that most will feel safe with before "adding new blood" to the mix, so to speak. Some of your best show stock has come from these kinds of breedings. 

I know there are some that are breeding full siblings...I can't say I've gotten that brave, but the half-siblings does not produce poor quality offspring unless you start with poor quality siblings. As OakRidge stated, if they have poor qualities you're going to lock them in...however, if you have strong qualities you also want to lock them in.


----------



## OakRidgeRabbits (Jul 17, 2009)

murph, I just realized your from PA! Do you have a website?  Just wondering if I "know" you or not. lol!


----------



## murph72 (Jul 17, 2009)

I've actually been on your sitebefore.  I like to look around at websites from PA breeders to see what everyone is up to. I have a friend who also breeds here in PA and she's always saying, "Have you been on this site yet?" She lets me know whose I've been missing. 

On my "to do list" this summer was to redo my site, but it hasn't happened yet. My pictures of my tribe are somewhat out of date as many of them are over a year old now. I always have excuses for not taking the pictures though...Right now Reuben is molting like something I've never before seen....but there's always going to be someone whose not looking to photogenic for the day I suppose. For what it's worth, here it is: www.MurphysLionsandLops.com. 

The two half-siblings I'm planning to breed are Anoop and Lola. They are both from Spring Lake's What About Bob. Anoop has that huge head of his dad and great bone. His sister is also pretty big boned already for her age. I got her at 10 weeks and she really looked just as big as her brothers. I'm hoping Anoop grows into his ears...I'm assuming he will as he's still quite young and not done growing...however, I like his sister's size and ears a bit better. It really is a game of playing with pieces, isn't it? Anoop has a pretty big head, figuratively speaking though, so I don't think I want to tell him he's not completely perfect. LOL


----------



## OakRidgeRabbits (Jul 17, 2009)

Oh, I was just on your site yesterday! I had just found it recently. Do you show much? Maybe we can meet in person sometime.


----------



## murph72 (Jul 17, 2009)

I actually just started showing myself after a friend talked me into it. I had actually raised bunnies for a few years that other people were showing and doing well with. I guess the showing bug never really bit me, but she has now guilted me into it. LOL She said I should be getting credit for my own bunnies, which I suppose is right. I just don't really have that much time to go to the shows. I just recently stepped down as the Student Council Advisor where I teach, so I'm hoping to have a bit more time on my hands. However, I just signed up to get another Masters degree in my "spare time," so I may have also just shot myself in the foot.  

It would be nice to meet someone from the forum in person. What upcoming shows are you planning to attend?


----------



## BSAR (Jul 17, 2009)

DO double and triple check the pedigrees before breeding! You may find they are related if you check again!

This case happened to us, long after we bred Minnie and Sippi but it had nothing to do why Minnie lost the kits and almost died. After going over there pedigrees one day we found that Minnie and Sippi are cousins!


----------



## BlueGiants (Jul 17, 2009)

It's good to know how closely related the rabbits are before you breed them, but crossing cousins is not necessarily bad. That is what's called line breeding and can be used to emphasize good traits. (As long as you know what you are doing, and watch out for intensifying any bad traits.)


----------



## murph72 (Jul 17, 2009)

BSAR, don't worry, I am very well aware of what is in their pedigree. Both the breeder who theyoriginally camefrom and I agree that the offspring would be strengthened by this line breeding. I am more likely to practice line breeding of parents and thier offspring, but in this case it's a very strong line that I'm looking to strengthen even further. The idea that breeding all"cousins" is bad is not true. I even know some who would argue that breeding "siblings" is also OK...but I haven't found a group of siblings that I think would pair well together, so I can't say that I've found that to be true or not. I know that more of the lionhead breeders are doing breedings of full siblings than what I've heard about in my experiences with mini lops or Hollands...I'd surmise that is because their isn't as much of a gene pool to pull from in Lionheads as their is in the lops. Breedings of siblings is a bit too close for me on the tree, so I can't say I look to be trying that one. But, if it is working for a breeder and they're not getting birth defects or strengthening poor traits, I don't know that I can criticize them.


----------



## RAL Rabbitry (Jul 17, 2009)

Most of my breeding are line breedings. I do not breed siblings but I will breed 1/2 siblings occasionally. I do outcross the next generation but I got back to my original line in the second generation. Line breeding done properly sets the type of your line of rabbits and increases the percentage of show quality rabbits that are predictable in the way that they develop.

Roger


----------



## irishlops (Jul 17, 2009)

*Erins Rabbits wrote: *


> *irishlops wrote: *
> 
> 
> > * dont breed siblings
> ...


all im saying is not encouging it unless as you say you know what your doing.
my 2 buns brother and sister unplanned breed at 5months- and i was worried about the kist but i dint need to anymore
there all in the rainbow bridge.
im glad your rabbits is fine and healthy


----------

