# mom died and left 3 babies please help me



## KimboUNCW1

i'm posting this all over. i just joined b/c im desperate to save this baby bunny. please help!

hey yall my name's kimberly and one of my rabbits just had babies.:shock:we had no idea she was pregnant. we have 5 rabbits. we have a huge pin outside for them and put plastic all around it with a dog igloo and tons of hay in it. i noticed the mama was always in the dog house and was cut up due to her hair being ripped off.... i found her this afternoon dead in the house with three babies next to her still alive. 6 of the babies were brand new and died and im so heartbroken. i brought all of the rabbits inside and they're in the bathroom nice n warm. two of the babies have a nice coat and their eyes opened but the 3rd is a brand new baby. did she have two litters?? i have the tinygirl or boyunder my shirt in my hand so she's warm but with plenty of air. im afraid the other rabbits might hurt her. she also has a tiny cut on her back. i need yalls help!!i dont know a thing about bunnies and i need all the help i can get. i dont want to loose anymore babies!


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## Pipp

here are a couple of threads to get you started: 

http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=7499&amp;forum_id=1&amp;highlight=kmr

http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=2381&amp;forum_id=1&amp;highlight=kmr

Here's another one... 

http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=12727&amp;forum_id=16



I'll keep looking and adding to this thread. 

Good luckwith them.



sas


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## aurora369

Hi,

I deleted your duplicate post in the Infirmary section, you'll probably get more answers here.

So, just to clarify: The mother is dead. There are 2 older babies and one new-born baby.

If the mother had indeed passed, she most likely had a stuck baby or suffered from calcium withdrawal.

Check all of your other rabbits to make sure none of them are mothers as well. You'll need to make sure the males and femals are seperated.

Rabbits have no heat cycle, and are fertile all the time.They drop their eggs once they have been mated, and are fertile immediatly after giving birth.

They are pregnant for 4 weeks. So the older babies are most likely 4 weeks old and have a good chance of being okay with out mom.

The new born one has much slimmer chances. You canattempt to hand feed with KMR, but the best option is to find another feeding mother. That's why it's importand to check all your bunnies to see if any of them have milk.

I don't have time right now to give you more information, but please read up on new born rabbits in our Bunny 101 section.

http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=12047&amp;forum_id=17
http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=12422&amp;forum_id=10

Hopefully another member can step up and help you to hand feed. 

--Dawn


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## Pipp

Thanks Dawn, I was looking for the official Resource Center entry and couldn't find it, so I posted some member threads. 

Kimberly, the link from Aurora/Dawn is a good one, please read through it. 

Did the older babies have access to hay? Do they still have access to hay? What foodwas in the house with them? 



sas ray:


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## KimboUNCW1

how do you tell who's the boy or girl!! i tried to see if maybe others were preggers by feeling for "ninnies" but could'nt find any. ill read those links thanks you guys!


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## KimboUNCW1

well now they're all in a huge box with hay... i always fed them rabbit pellets frm the feed store. i fed the babies with a syringe *sp* a little bit but im still oldin the smallest one. i dont want her to get hurt


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## Pipp

Here's a link with some detailed pics aboutsexing bunnies. 

http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=12064&amp;forum_id=17



sas


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## Pipp

Did they have hay before? They should be fine, you won't have to syringe feed them, its way better if you don't. (What exactly did you syringe feed?) As long as they wereused to eating hay and pellets with their mom, they should be okay. If they were only getting her milk, though, it could be a problem, because sudden diet changes are really bad for them. They must changegradually.

I'm sure you'll read this in the links, but don't feed the little one cow's milk. 

sas


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## Pipp

I'll leave this for Aurora and the breeders, now, they're more experienced. 

Really hopethey all make it and there aren't any more coming from your other bunnies. 



sas ray:


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## KimboUNCW1

well i dont think they had n e thing but her milk. i didnt know the eat hay?! lol im still trying to figure out how to sex them by readin the link. i wis yall were close enough to stop by and help lol. ill take pics when i get the chance. my vet doesnt do rabbits but i will find one that does.


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## TinysMom

First of all, if we could find a breeder in your area who was willing to foster them - would you be willing to let the breeder take them? If so....we need an idea of where you live (You can send it via. private message if you prefer that route - you can send messagse at the top right of the page where it says "no new messages".Click on that and it brings you to a form.

You could get some kitten replacement formula from a grocery store o rWalmart and syringe feed some of that. It comes in a powder form.

Pipp is right - check your other rabbits to see if there are any that are mamas...

Also - can you tell us someting about the baby - does its tummy area look like it ate (it should almost look like a ping pong ball) - or does it look shrunken in and wrinkly? I'm hoping maybe the mama nursed it before she died..

Peg


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## TinysMom

Do you have any ways to take pictures and share them with us? One of the mods can help you get them posted if you need help...

I'm rereading your post and thinking through this. I'm guessing you're going to have another mama if you have two babies that have their eyes opened and have fur. The reason? Babies open their eyes around day10.. that means that litter is probably 10+ days old. 

I would check the sex of your older rabbits and see who is a female. If she's a mama - especially if she is the mama of the older babies,you'll be able to feel her nipples and she may have fur missing from her belly or legs where she pulled fur to make a nest.

You can put the babies together to nurse. Ideally, you'd want to put the newborn with a litter that was less than 3 days older than it for the right nutrients in the milk, but since right now we just want to keep the baby alive - I'd try to get it to drink with the older ones.

You can do this by taking a shoe box or some sort of box and putting the babies in it and then having mama on top of them. I like to give mama a treat and pet her to keep her calm. It will only take her about5 minutes or so to nurse them and you can tell if they've eaten 'cause their bellies will fill up and they'll look as if they have a ping pong ball inside. 

If she doesn't nurse them then - keep trying every two hours or sbviously, one of your rabbits has been nursing babies if they're ten days old. My only concern is that the doe may be trying to wean them (if she's still alive and not the one that died) because she probably got pregnant again immediately after giving birth.

I'd like to share more with you LATER about how to avoid this again -but please - don't feel bad - let's just try to save the babies you have now and then talk about what to do in the future later..

Peg


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## Pipp

So you think there's two mothers and not just that the one mother had two litters and the ones with their eyes open are four weeks old? I guess that makes sense.Really would be great if there's another nursing mother. 

Thanks for stepping in, Peg. 

sas


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## TinysMom

Pipp,

Have you seen a four week old bunny? Mine are curious as all get-out and dying to get out of the cage. At four weeks ok, it would be hard not to notice them....depending upon where one lives and how cold it is. 

Of course - if its been really really cold where the poster lives -perhaps the babies did stay in the house and hide. I don't know.

But if they're a month old and she's brought them into the house -they're going to be going crazy wanting to explore things. If they're10 days - 2 weeks old...then they're gonna be sleeping most of the time and wanting mama sometimes. 

There is a big difference in activity level between a 2 week old and a 4 week old.

My concern is kind of that if they are 10 days - 2 weeks apart in age(from the young litter) - and the mama (if there is a 2nd mama) is pregnant again - she will only have milk for a short time longer.Probably not long enough to nurse this one...so you're looking at fostering it or trying to go with formula or something.

If we could find out the baby's current condition (ie...if it has the ping pong belly) then we know if we have 24 hours to find a foster - or if we need to start getting formula into it tonight.

Hope I'm making some sense...there's so much to think through about this.

Peg


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## KimboUNCW1

i've purchased some krf and given some to the baby. i kinda don't want to give them up because i've grow so attatched you know? i'll do whatever yall think i should but if yall don't think its a good idea then i'll think about fostering. ill take pics in a min


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## TinysMom

The ones with their eyes open should not be a problem for you. I'll walk you through feeding them - once we see them(that will help). If they're only 10 days or so - then I'd start them on oatmeal and a bit of hay. If they're a month old (like mama had an arlier litter) then they can have rabbit food.

It's the newborn I'm concerned about. I think pictures will help us be able to help you.

It would also help if you can tell us about the rabbits you have...size/age, etc. 

Peg


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## KimboUNCW1

he was in my dad's hand in those. he keeps snuggling aroundin my hand. ill take some of the other 2 now and the big ones too.


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## TinysMom

If you can - get a shot with this one next to the others too.

I'm not thinking this is a newborn....because it has the fur on it. A newborn tort (which is what I'm thinking it is for color) would be all pink with some dark markings along the ear - but not fur in yet. The fur takes 2-3 days to come in.

I'm going to keep checking in every few minutes to see what you post.

Peg


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## KimboUNCW1




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## TinysMom

Ok. I have a couple more questions.

Can you tell me about the mama that died? What color was she? Was she a lionhead by any chance?

Secondly - the youngest kit - does it have bald spots on top of its head and on its flanks? I know that may sound like a crazy question.

I'm really thinking you have two different mamas. I'm about to show the photos to my husband and get his opinion. The older ones just don't seem like month old babies (from an earlier litter from same mama).

Peg


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## TinysMom

I just showed the photos to my husband and he agrees that the babies are not from a 30 day old litter that mama would've had already. We are guessing the older rabbits to be between10 and 15 days old by their position (they're just not up and running about and exploring yet...so they're not used to hopping..its hard to explain).

I'm guessing that the younger one is 3 days old. Why 3 days? It has a decent amount of fur - the color is pretty obvious. To me, its looking like a lionhead with a bald head and flanks and I see this a lot in my 3 day olds.

I would be checking your brown rabbits to see if one is a mama. Odds are good that the mama of the older litter is pregnant again as they will mate immediately after giving birth. This means...in about 17-21days....expect another litter.

I'd flip the rabbits over and check for fur being pulled out as does will do this to expose their nipples.

As far as the older litter, for the next 2-3 days I'd take 1/2 jar of baby rice cereal (if you can find it in a jar - I think you can) and mix it with their food to soften it up a bit. I'd also add a small handful of oatmeal on the side (just reach into the oatmeal container and grab a handful of the oatmeal - don't cook it up). If they start to give diaherrea, take away the food and just give them the oatmeal for aday or so.

Other experienced breeders will probably have better advice for you.

For the young one....if you can keep it warm (I'd try to get all 3 to sleep together in a shoe box w/ a small towel or something)...you have a good chance of having it survive. I'd try to give it the formula every 2-4 hours - just a small amount at a time. You'll also need to take a warm damp cloth and wipe its private areas to get it topee and poop. 

Peg


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## TinysMom

ARG! I forgot to say this.

You really need to check all of your rabbits tonight to see what sex they are. You could have one male and three females ... in which case -you are probably in for 3 more litters!

Also - I didn't mention checking the black and white dutch but the more I look at the older tan baby - the more I think it is either the mama or the father based on the white marking on the nose.

Oh - and cute rabbits!

Peg


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## KimboUNCW1

well the mama was white with some spots here n there on her fur. she had longer fur and floppy ears. what are flanks? lol this baby is greyish with pink on the inside of his ears and on the top of his head. i will definately keep this baby warm, ill go get a shoe box and put the other 2 in there with the baby. do bunnies eat the young? im wondering where the rest of the bigger babies went. the dead babies looked like something kinda nibbled on them. do they suck on their own feet like a baby sucks it's thumb?


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## TinysMom

Sometimes a new mama will "overclean" the baby and eat part of its foot or an ear. I just had a litter of three this week - the mama chewed off a leg from each of them. She was a new mama and was nervous and had them on the wire. Needless to say, they all died.

It is possible that the mama of the first litter only had two babies.They look healthy and like they were well cared for by mama. They're at the age where they become fun now....they're going to start to get curious and come to see you when you feed them (ok - that might take a bit). But they're definitely at a great age to start socializing them by holding them and loving on them and petting them.

Peg


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## KimboUNCW1

3 more litters lol can u imagine? gosh i better just seperate every rabbit and keep them in their own area lol. ill go put the 3 in the shoe box and feed the baby and then go try to sex those big ones i'll be right back. where is everyone from anyways? im in north carolina. and is it normal for the baby to shake its head sometimes? like how rabbits scratch? he does that but w.o using hisleg. he's constantly moving around in my hand also. im keeping him toasty


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## TinysMom

I just caught a baby exploring out of the nestbox and trying to get out of the cage. Its 11 days old and it opened its eyes late Wednesday night. I think it came out looking for mama and decided to start looking around.

This is why I think your older litter is about 10 days old - maybe 11 days old. They really start to explore more after their eyes have been opened for a bit.

Peg


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## Pipp

If there's another mother in the mix, shouldn'tthe first step be to find her and get her to feed all three babies? I'm confused. Forumla feeding rarely works out, if you have asurrogate mother there, that's far preferable. 

Am I missing something? 



sas :?


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## TinysMom

Pipp,

Surrogate/fostering is best. However, the mama that is left has milk that will be a different nutritional balance by a fairly significant difference. Also, if mama is pregnant (which there is a good chance) -her milk is drying up.

However - you do make a good point. I think I'd try to get the surrogate mother to nurse but be prepared to back up with formula if needed. I'm just not sure how soon mama's milk will be gone if she got pregnant immediately after giving birth...

Peg
*
Pipp wrote: *


> If there's another mother in the mix, shouldn'tthe first step be to find her and get her to feed all three babies? I'm confused.Forumla feeding rarely works out, if you have asurrogate mother there, that's far preferable.
> 
> Am I missing something?
> 
> 
> 
> sas :?


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## TinysMom

I wanted to add something that is probably why I sound so confused here.

We actually have some different scenarios.

a. The mama of the "newborns" died.

b. The mama of the older kits died and the mama of the newborns is still there. (Perhaps the newborns got separated and got cold).

c. The rabbit that died wasn't one of the mamas at all and we still have two mamas.

Ideally, the rabbit that died wasn't one of the two mamas and we happen to have both mamas still alive.

I suspect though that one of the mamas died and I'm wondering if it was the mama of the older litter since the poster mentioned that she was brown and had white spots. If you look at the older tan baby - you see tan and white.

I wish Pam Nock was one - or a more experienced breeder. Why? I don't know how healthy/unhealthy it is to give a 2 or 3 day old kit to a mom who has 10-12 day old kits. I know the fats in the milk are at different levels. I also don't know when a doe will stop nursing if she's pregnant as I don't breed my does for a minimum of 8 weeks after giving birth.

Of course, ideally all the kits would have their mums still alive. Possibly if you put the kits with the older rabbits, they would smell their mom and go to her. 

Anyway, if we can figure out who the mamas are...we could still let the kits nurse - that would be great. 

Its just good to have a backup plan and I guess I was so busy assuming the worse (mama not nursing due to pregnancy, etc) that I wasn't thinking "oh..let's just foster.."

Peg


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## KimboUNCW1

the mama that died had a lot of her hair out, but none of the rest have any hair out. i keep feeling around for 'ninnies' on the adult ones and cant feel any! i turned the lighter one over and looked and didn't see anything like the 'sexing rabbits' link. im going to go in there and try again though. i gave all the babies some more formula, is it okay to give the older babies some too? they drank a little, and the little baby licked his lips a bit when i put it on his mouth, is that how they drink when they're that young? i'm so worried that i'll squeeze a lot at one time that i take it away from his face and squeeze til a little comes out and then i touch his mouth with it


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## TinysMom

You're doing that right and it is fine to give the older ones some of the formula. You could mix up their pellets with some formula if you want....to make sort of a "slurry".

When I have to give a tiny one formula...I put it on their mouth and sort of let them lick it off...because if I try to go too fast - they die by inhaling it.

The more I think about it - the more I think Pipp is right - finding the other mama would probably be best.

Peg


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## KimboUNCW1

so far the other floppy ear one, or brown one,is a girl from what i saw and compared to the 'sexing rabbits' pictures. im going to do the rest now...they can sure scratch the heck out of ya can't they? it's cute how turning them upside down and cradeling them makes them relaxed. what if i don't find any "ninnies"on any of the other ones? I'm thinking I will since yall are convinced there are 2 mamas. Back I go, I'll let you know what I see.


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## TinysMom

Well first of all, you sort of HAVE to get the mall sexed so that you can get the daddy or daddies out of there or you will keep having litters every 31 days.

With bucks you can generally feel the two testicles hanging down - but they can also pull them up into the body. 

But unless you want to keep having litters over and over again - you will definitely need to get the buck(s) out away from the does...and keep them apart.

Peg


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## KimboUNCW1

i did it! there's one boy and 3 girls and theblack and white one has the "ninnies" and so i put her in the box withthe 3 babies. the boy was the greyish one and he has those thingshanging down. yall have been SO helpful i just have to say... so whatdo you think i should do now? i have 3 boxes...one with 2 girls, onewith the boy and one with the 3 babies and black and white mama....should i put some food and water in there with the babies and mama? orshould i take her out from time to time to feed her and then put herback in afterwards....also, i rubbed the warm cloth on the baby's tummyand 'vent' area and he never went....altough earlier i saw littlepoopoo balls....what if she doesnt go pee ?



i'm gonna head to bed but i think i'll keep the momma and babies nearmy bed. ill check on them from time to time.... ill let you know how itgoes!ray:


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## aurora369

Hi,

I'm so sorry for running out on you with out giving a very detailedanswer. You posted just as I was running out the door for theevening!

I would the babies in a shoe box filled with hay or a box of similarsize. And then put that box in the with the mamma withmilk. Provide them with lots of fresh hay and pellets,they'll start nibbling on them soon, and fresh water.

I would also keep all the bunnies seperate for now, just in case youend up with more babies. It'll be easier to keep track of thebabies and track how the mama's are doing.

I would only feed the little baby some KMR once a day. And let him nurse off of mom the rest of the time.

In the rescue I belong to, we had a girl succesfully hand raise a babyfrom a few days old. I've never had any success with handfeeding, but all the babies I have to hand feed are normally very sick.

Please keep asking questions! We'll do our best to help you along!

--Dawn


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## KimboUNCW1

well, i had the babies and mama beside my bedlast night and kept waking up to check on them. they're doing good sofar! my concern now is that they aren't getting any milk from the mom.she just stands there and doesn't kind of lean over for them. she doeshave the "ninnies" so shouldn't she have milk? I remember where I readto give the baby some formula every couple of hours or so very littleat a time. i did that with the others and they tore it up, so does thatmean they aren't getting enough milk? 

Also, how will i tell if any more of them are pregnant. i was wonderingwhy they didn't have babies sooner, but i got the grey one and thelighter pinkish one at the same time and they were both tiny. i guessnow he's old enough to reproduce? are they sure to mate after they'vegiven birth? would i be able to feel their sides for babies if theywere pregnant?


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## Pipp

Those links should give you some good tips. 

I think you may have to hold the mom so the babies can reachher. They should have some access to her, and to hay andwater.

Is the little one's belly fat?

And is the formula KRM? Hopefully someone experienced will jump in here.



sas


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## KimboUNCW1

ya it's krm. i tried to show the babies where togo and saw the black one upside down but if they're getting milk theyshouldn't be so eager to drink the formula right? the baby kind oflooks the same to me, but i'll go check again to see if his littletummy is any bigger


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## KimboUNCW1

well i think his tummy looks bigger lol soshould i not feed him a little at a time til tonight? also i dont wantto put a bowl in there in case they drown in the water, so i put aplate with a thin amount in there...is that enough for the mom andbabies?


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## KimboUNCW1

here's some more pictures from this afternoon.


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## TinysMom

I would try to have mama feed the tiny baby forsure every 2-4 hours (just place her over the baby and pet her and givethe baby time to try and nurse if her milk doesn't come in). Now thatthe other two have their eyes open and are in a box with mama, they'llseek her out for nursing whenever they get the urge. 

If the smallest baby or the other two don't look like they've nursed bymaybe 8 or 9 pm tonight (or whatever bedtime you keep), then I'd givethem a bit of formula so they make it through the night ok. 

But try to get mama to nurse too.

Also - for the does who aren't mamas (yet)...put a bit of hay or strawin their box with them. When you see them carrying the hay around intheir mouth...put in a shoebox with more hay or shredded newpaper (nonglossy type) or something like that so they can make a nest for theirbabies.

If you were normally a breeder I'd suggest buying nestboxes but sinceyou'll hopefully only have a few litters, shoeboxes would probably do.

Peg


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## aurora369

I think some of the confusions is how mommy bunnies feed there babies.

The mama will just stand overtop of the babies, she won't lie down onher side like cats or dogs do. She'll jump in the box, standover the babies for a few minutes, and give the babies a little cleanup, then jump out of the box.

If you see the babies up side down under momma, then they arefeeding. They can also arch their backs at an alarming angleto get to mom's teats. I once thought a baby had hurt hisback because he kept arching, but it's completly normal.

Babies will almost always be willing to eat! They will eat asmuch as they can, when they can. So just because they arewilling to eat formula, doesn't mean that they are not getting any ofmom's milk. If mom is feeding them, they will have roundedbellies, and if they are not being fed their bellies will be shrunkendand wrinkled.

And yes, mom's will mate immediatly after giving birth, and the femalerabbits most likely became fertile at different times. And ifyou are really lucky, some of them may still not be sexually mature.

But I would still keep them all seperate and monitor for at least 30 days to ensure no more babies.

As for telling if bunnies are pregnant, it's quite hard if you don'tknow what you are doing. In the last week or so, ifyou watch very carefull when mom is lying down, you should see thebabies moving around. Earlier in the pregnancy, you canattempt to palpatate. 

Here are a couple web sites to help you:
http://islandgems.net/palpating.html
http://www.double-d-ranch.org/articles/pregnant-doe.php
http://www.rabbitnutrition.com/rabbit/Palpation_files/frame.htm

I tried to answer all your questions, if I missed any please ask again!

--Dawn


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## KimboUNCW1

well i did see the babies upside down and i sawher licking the black one when he was upside down like in the picture.i just worry that the won't take care of the tiny one like theothers...they have lots of hay and some pellets in the corner. i put ina few peices of carrot and spinich because that's what i always have inthe pin with the other bunnies and it wouldn't be a change in thediet...i saw the black one eating some of the spiniach! i'll keepmonitoring them. i keep putting the baby next to the mama and it seemslike he can't find his way to nurse. i'll keep at it though and iappreciate yall's help so much...i just wish the other babies werealive for me to care for them :cry1:



also, i just read the palpatting link. when i checked the vent area thegirls' private places were really pink and looked like there was a bitof blood. does this mean they are about to have the babies?? i'll tryto feel their belly, but i read where towards the end of the pregnancyit will be pink....


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## aurora369

Was is just one of the girls that had blood onher privates? Or all of the other girls. If it'sjust one, she may be the mother to the tiny one. If it's allof them, they may be ready to give birth. I'm not 100% sureabout that part, so hopefully Peg has more experience with this.

What you can try doing with the tiny one, is hold him to mom's tummywhere there's a nipple, and he should start rooting frantically untillhe finds a nipple.

He will suckle for a minute or so, then start frantically startsearching for a new nipple. This will be repeated untill thebaby feels full.

You can try doing that twice a day, once in the morning then once before bed.

As long as his little belly is full looking, he should be fine.

--Dawn


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## TinysMom

If there is a bit of blood, I'd say there is agood chance you'll be having more babies soon. The best test (mostobvious) is to put some hay or straw in the box. They'll start carryingit around in their mouth and looking for a place to nest. I also givemy does some fabric like felt (which doesn't have strings hanging offit) and they love to play with that and put it in their nest. But ithas to be a fabric which doesn't have any strings that can get wrappedaround a baby's head or leg or something. You don't need it - but sinceI breed, I'm always picking it up at Walmart when they have scraps ofit for sale. Its mainly because my does love to play with it as theyprepare to nest.

Personally, even though the parents are used to greens, I'd be carefulabout letting the babies have much since they're just getting solidfoods. Watch that black one for diaherrea in the next 24 hours and ifit has some - give it hay or oats.

Peg


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## KimboUNCW1

ok no more greens! it was definately two of thegirls that had a bloody looking 'vent area'. i can't remember now ifthe oreo one did or not..hmm...i put the baby next to the oreo one andwatched him sideways and it looked like he was nursing... im guessingthey dont 'act' like they're nursing if theres not a nipple!? but thenagain i dont know! the two females have hay in the big box with themand they've eaten a hole in the corner of the box...lol i noticed whereone of them is sitting there's no hay but there's hay on the floor ofthe rest of the box, except where the hole is now



do you guys want me to take a picture of their vent areas to show youwhat it looks like or do you want to just go with 'a bit ofblood'.....wow.. if there's more babies to come i'll be able to carefor them yay. is a bloody vent a sign of babies about to be born? orjust that the mama is pregnant and has a ways to go?



oh yeah i almost forgot! the black baby has one eye open and the otherlooks kinda shut like maybe it got hurt...is this normal? maybe they'restill opening their eyes all the way?


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## aurora369

If there is a bit of blood, it's that the momhas already given birth or there are babies to come. So inyour case it's most likely that there are babies on the way.

Is there any way you could set up some NIC cages in the house to hold them untill all the babies are older?

You can get some ideas from our cages thread here: 
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=15348&amp;forum_id=21

And this website has supply finder, so you could see where other people have found supplies:
http://www.guineapigcages.com/

It would probably take you an afternoon to build them once you have thesupplies. This would be the cheapest and most effective wayto house them all seperatly. You could even build some cagesthat are stacked ontop of each other to save space.

I would also suggest looking into getting the boy neuteredASAP. And the girls spayed after they have had all theirbabies. I would also suggest you start looking for good homesnow, sometimes it can take a long time to find good homes.

And on the greens subject, it's a constant debate. I havenever had problems with giving greens to young bunnies, but I also onlygive it once or twice a week and watch them very carefully for anyproblems (like runny poos).

--Dawn


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## KimboUNCW1

how much does it cost to spay etc a bunny? andhow do you guys look for homes....put ads in the newspaper? i dont knowanyone that would be interested in any bunnies lol we have tons ofspace for them to live but i dont like the idea of them being outsideanymore....maybe we could build a little building for them like we didour chickens? where they'll be toasty in the cold. what are yallsthoughts....find someone who'll keep them inside? i get so attatched toany animal we have it's hard to part with them unless i KNOW for surethey'll be treated like we treat them..u know? 



the oreo bunny has left the box and is in the corner of the bathroom right now...i guess she'll go back in the box eventually??


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## TinysMom

She will go back in the box whenever she wantsto nurse. My biggest concern is about the youngest baby - the two olderones should do fine. As far as greens - I've had young ones eat greens- Puck ate them when he was 6 weeks old. But he'd already been onsolids by that time. I prefer to start my babies on hay and oats andthen pellets way before giving greens. Also, when you introduce greensyou only give about the size of a quarter to make sure they don't getsick.

As far as finding homes for the babies, you will have plenty of time todo that. It is important that you get the buck neutered for sure -spaying the does too would be good. But neutering the buck would be myfirst course of action. Don't forget that the babies will grow up andif there are any bucks....they will be mature in 3-4 months and able tobreed their mamas...

Right now the big thing to watch for is more litters. Don't worry aboutfinding homes for the rabbits - after they are 6-8 weeks old (I prefer8 weeks), you can place an ad in the paper or at vet's offices,possibly see if you can put an ad at a local feed store that sellsrabbit food, or even on a bulletin board in the pet section of Walmartor something. 

But right now - just let's watch the mamas and the babies and see howthey do. If all the mamas are pregnant (which is possible) - you couldbe looking at another 12-20 babies in the next 30 days. I don't want toscare you - I'm just thinking of an average of 4 babies permama...could be more...could be less. 

Once you see the mamas start carrying around hay in their mouth and youput the nestbox in with them, I would give them each an antacid thathas calcium in it. I buy the Walmart generic brand that comes in berryflavors or something. Calcium deficiency can cause a doe to haveproblems giving birth and can even cause the death of a doe or thedeath of a whole litter. I give one antacid (broken into pieces) perday for about 3 days before a doe gives birth. My does love the berryflavored ones and usually gobble them right up. One of my does ate themand then the last day she refused her tablet and proceed to pick up thepieces and put it in her nest. I knew then that if she was refusing afavorite treat (or medicine in this case) that she was close todelivery.

Peg


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## KimboUNCW1

so i rolled the oreo bunny over and put thebabies on her to nurse...the black baby kept trying and then went toanother then another...im not entirely sure she's got any milk! ichecked her vent area again and it wasn't bloody it was just pink.could this mean she's pregnant again and her milk has dried up?



also i saw the oreo one and the floppy ear brown one with hay in theirmouth but maybe they were just eating it. if they have hay in theirmouths to make the nest do they just place it from one spot to theother? or does it look and sound like their eating it? i feel so badthat i'm asking yall so many 'dumb' questions when yall are busy imsure with other stuff...:?either way, i really appreciate allthe help!


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## TinysMom

First of all, the only "dumb" question is the one that isn't asked. Ok? 

Secondly, we're here to help. There may be times when a moderator isn'ton or a breeder isn't on...but when we're on...we're here to help.

With that said, I have found that my mamas will first chew on the hayand eat some of it. But as they get closer to delivery, they startpicking it up and holding it in their mouth and carrying it around. Ithink we have photos somewhere here on the forum of mamas about tokindle - I'll try to find it and link to it here..

Peg


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## TinysMom

Here's the link to the photos of the rabbits building nests:

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=10709&amp;forum_id=21

sometimes mama will carry the hay around - sometimes she'll just sitand hold it. When she does this though - her mind is on nesting...

As far as the mama you tried to get to nurse - it could be that shedoesn't have any milk or it could be that her milk isn't in yettoday...I've got one mama that is nursing on demand - normally mamaswill nurse a couple of times per day until the babies get older andcome looking for mama 'cause their eyes are open.

By the way - mama needs LOTS and LOTS of water to drink in order tokeep her milk supply up. I'd find a way to attach a water bottle to herbox OR if she jumps in and out of the box - put out a bowl of water forher. I'm guessing she's going to need at least 4 ounces of water if notmore. If she doesn't have water - she can't nurse.

Peg


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## KimboUNCW1

ill definatey keep up with her water. i put abox in with the other two. i saw the box in the link was on its side...does it matter how the nestbox lays?


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## aurora369

Hey,

The box in that picture is not a nest box for babies, just a toy box.

The nest box should be upright, with the open side on the top. That way the babies don't wander out and get cold.

--Dawn


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## KimboUNCW1

good thing b/c i had the little box upright! soapparently the oreo mama jumped into the box with the boy...that littletrickster...so i shut the top with him in it but there are lots ofholes on each side and a few spaces in the top so he can breathe...ididn't know she could jump up so high. that's just what i need...somemore babies! ha... i've got to get some of those cool cages to put himin so he'll be seperate completely with no access to any other girls!that little baby looks to have a plump little belly so i'll hold offwith the hand feeding tonight, what do you think?


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## aurora369

If he's got a round little belly then I would say it's safe to hold off till morning.

Here's a picture of a very, very well fed baby:










He was one of my past fosters, Tony. His mom Penny was very good at feeding her babies.

It looks like mom is doing a good job.

The NIC condo's are very, very easy to build, and you could do someinteresting designs to hold everyone seperate. And they would be theleast expensive. You should really look into seeing if thatwould work for you. The card board boxes really aren't goingto hold the bunnies for too long, they'll chew there way through orjump out like your girl did.

--Dawn


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## KimboUNCW1

oh good the baby looks just like that!! yeahthose bunnies love to chew those boxes lol :shock:ill callwal mart up today and see if they have 'nic' crates; i figured i'dbetter call b4 i go down there b/c it's a 30 min drive lol


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## KimboUNCW1

ok right now one of the other girl rabbits issounding like she's weezing??? do you think she ate some cardboard???:shock:do they makes noises before they give birth? i'mfreaking out, i put some water in front of her hoping she'd drink itand it'd help but she wasn't interested in water...does this soundfamiliar??


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## aurora369

She might be about to giver birth, the noises may be from contractions.

I don't think it would be from eating cardboard, my bunnies chew on cardboard all the time and don't make funny noises after.

How is she doing now?

And if your little baby looks like the one in the pictures, theythere's no need to hand feed it. It'll do just fine with mom.

Call Walmart, but they may not know what you are talkingabout. You have to describe them. They may be aRubbermaid brand or some other brand, They don't make the"Neat Idea Cubes" any more as far as I know.

Check on this website, they have a "Find Materials" section that people have listed the different stores they've found supplies:
http://www.guineapigcages.com/

It looks like Walmart, and Target are your best bets. Somehardware stores carry them too. Just so you have more to tellthe store clerk when you are calling, they are metal grids that cliptogether to make cubby hole style shelving. And they measure14-15" along the sides, depending on the brand and the wholes are 1.5"

I hope you can find some, it would really make life easier for you.

--Dawn


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## KimboUNCW1

well she's not making the noises anymore butjust sittin in the corner....the other rabbit is sitting in the box...idont know if its b/c there's not enough room to comfortably sitsomewhere else or what....theres a little bit of hay in the box withher .... i've been giving the baby a little bit at a time so i wasthinking thats why the little baby was looking like that...i keepputting her beside the mama so if i notice her thinning out i'll feedher some more.... i was thinking a little while ago that maybe she wasmaking the noises because she wanted to get out of the box....the boyhad chewed his way out and was outside of the box with the 2 girls...iput him in a big dog carrier for now lol i figured i should put him inthere b/c he's the only boy....how long from the contractions do thebunnys have the babies? if she hasn't had them after the time yall saythen i guess it was just an annoyed growling lol i'll keep you updated





ok the baby is cold and flaling around....any thoughts????? omg i hope he's ok...i have him under my shirt to warm him up


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## KimboUNCW1

he died omg



ok hes back im doin cpr HELP


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## KimboUNCW1

OK SHE JUST PEED A WHOLE LOT JUST NOW IT SQUIRTED OUT....STILL FLALING AROUND PLEASE HELP


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## TinysMom

First of all, babies will get cold and appeardead sometimes - but if they are picked up and held and start to warmup, they can be saved. When I started breeding I had babies born on thewire and thought they were dead but when I held them and their bodytemperature picked up, they made it. 

I'm not sure what you mean by flailing around....the only thing I canthink of is that the baby was cold and is warming up and now wants tostart nursing or something. If the baby is thin you could try giving itto mama to nurse or you could try some formula.

Do you have any idea how the baby got cold? Was it separated from theother two? I'm asking because you're going to have to find a way tokeep the baby warm in order for it to survive. You'll either need toput it in a tiny box with lots of fur or some hay or something thatwill help it keep its body heat - or get the other two to stay withit...something that may get harder as they get older and want toexplore.

Peg


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## pamnock

I'm not sure from the post if the problem is referring to a baby or one of the adult rabbits ...

If it's a baby . . .

It's impossible for us to do anything over the Internet without knowingwhat is wrong with the baby and why the body systems arefailing. It could be anything from a congenitalillness,a viral or bacterial infectionto pneumoniafrom aspirating the formula. 

From what you are describing, I doubt that a vet would be able to save the kit.

The best you can do is to keep the baby warm.



If it's an adult rabbit, it may be suffering from pneumonia orcongestive heart failure. Choking is possible if the rabbitis salivating profusely. If this is an adult rabbit, itshould be taken to the vet ASAP as this is an emergency situation thatcannot be handled over the Internet.

If this is adult rabbit that you suspect is giving birth, it may besuffering from internal hemorrhaging - is there any bloody discharge?

Pam


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## KimboUNCW1

im guessing the baby appeared fat b/c it had peestored up...the mom isn't taking care of the little baby at all....iput the baby's face on the moms nipple and the baby didn't nurse.... irubbed some more water on her belly and she peed a whole lot..a fewtimes....my mom's trying to feed him now.... he just looks like he'strying to run. before he was trying torun and had hismouthgapped open and wentstill....iblew alittle into his mouth and was tapping gentlyon his chest andhe started to run again. i keep checking on the babies ever half hourat the most and they're fine. the baby was away from the other two andthe mom was out of the box but could he getcold that fast??the mom is worthless and doesn't take care of the baby.... could one ofthe other two be the moms? i'd never seen the baby peebefore but i'd seen him poop... now that he peed alot he seems thin tome and his belly is wrinkly......im going to go back in there to makesure he's eating....


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## TinysMom

I wouldn't say the mom is worthless. First ofall, she doesn't appear to be the mom of THIS baby. She is probably themom of the older litter. If she is pregnant again from having matedwith the buck immediately after giving birth...then her milk is goingto be drying up.

In other words - you're asking her to be a mother to a baby that isn'thers and she may not have what she needs to take care of it. I'mguessing that the doe that died was the mama of this baby.

From what you're saying, I'm guessing that you're right - the reasonthe baby looked so fat was that it hadn't peed. This means you willneed to get formula into it ASAP....

But don't be so hard on the mama. It isn't her fault she was left inwith a buck and got pregnant again and her milk will be drying up.She's doing what she needs to do to conserve energy, etc. for her NEXTlitter.

Peg


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## KimboUNCW1

how much formula should i expect him to drink? he's stopped flailing around now and we're keeping him warm. what should i do now


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## TinysMom

*ARG...it won't copy for me. According to: 
http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/orphan.html

2-2.5 cc/ml per feeding (twice per day)

You need to go to that webpage and read it - about halfway down the page maybe??



From KimboUNCW1 wrote:



how much formula should i expect him to drink? he's stoppedflailing around now and we're keeping him warm. what should i donow

Click to expand...

*


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## aurora369

It does look like the baby just hadn't peed and that's why it had a fat belly.

I agree with Peg, give it some formula ASAP.

Here's a couple video's of one of my old fosters being syringefed. He's about two weeks old, but the technique is quitesimilar. You don't want to turn the baby over as there is toomuch of a risk of aspirating (breathing in) the formula. Keepa tissue near by and keep wiping his nose. And let him lickthe formula off the end of the syringe.








I hope that helps you. Have you done any research on theinternet for how much a baby should be eating? Here are somewebsites for you to read:
http://squirrelworld.com/RabRehab.html
http://www.rabbit.org/care/babies.html
http://cottontails-rescue.org.uk/handrear.asp
http://islandgems.net/handfeeding.html
http://www.mybunny.org/info/newborn.htm

Right now the baby should eat about 5cc of formula, and at one week about 10cc. 

--Dawn


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## TinysMom

I just did some research on the net. IF yourmama doe (of the older litter) bred immediately after givingbirth (which there is a VERY good chance she did) then her milk will bedrying up right about now and she will be unable to nurse the litter.

Understand - it isn't that she's being difficult it is that her body is preparing for her new litter. 

Peg


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## KimboUNCW1

ok the baby has calmed down a lot..... the otherone that's black has an eye messed up...it's shut and has some kind offilm built up over it...ill try to take a picture if it'll helpyou....i'll take a picture of the baby now too



i just took pics of the baby....he looks so wrinkly.... we'll feed himsome more in a minute, for now he's resting. im going to upload thepics now and post them in a minute


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## KimboUNCW1

is the baby's mouth being open a problem? 

sorry these pics are so blurry...it seems like you can see it better from the smaller view


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## TinysMom

You need to take a warm damp cloth and wipe theeye of the black rabbit. I usually use some terramycin ointment on themtoo - I get mine from a pet store. I'm thinking the rabbit has an eyeinfection.

As far as the baby goes - I'm going to be very honest with you. Thereis a very strong chance the baby won't make it. I'm not saying don'ttry to save it....the problem isn't so much with the baby's mouth beingopen as it is with the fact it just got so thin. Possibly it will makeit....so I'm not saying for sure it won't. Just....don't besurprised....ok?

I'd be giving the older two babies some formula and also some hay andoatmeal and maybe some pellets. I would not be starting them out ongreens though even though their mama has had them....that should not bethe first solids they eat....but that is just from my own experience.They could eat some after they get used to solids...

Peg


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## KimboUNCW1

he's making squeeking noises now...hiccups?


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## pamnock

*KimboUNCW1 wrote: *


> he's making squeeking noises now...hiccups?




It's hard to say without actually seeing it. Kits often gasp and squeak as they are dying.



Is this the same one that was wheezing that you are having problems with???



In one post can you list each individual with it's problems so we canget them straight? I thought you had also mentioned that onewas possibly having babies now?

Pam


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## KimboUNCW1

no the one that was wheezing was an adultone..... this baby is drinking more formula but his little bottom teethare showing.... mama says the little baby acts just like a baby...she'sfeeding him with an eye dropper.... she'll put some on his lips andhe'll slowly lick it off.....he's gone thru a little eye dropper...itsabout thesize of a middle finger or so.she said hedoesn't seem to be squeeking anymore. the baby has made noises beforebut it sounded like what a baby would do. :?





his belly looks full now...ill take a picture.. he's not squeeking anymore


you can still see his little ribs and he seems thin to me....he lookslike he has the hiccups....and that maybe his breathing is kind of hardto do and it looks like it's slowing down......i think he'sdying....omg


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## KimboUNCW1

he just seems like he's shrinking to me:Xgod....he's breathing so slow....why is this happening tothis poor baby??? i should have fed him more formula i guess? impraying so hard for this baby....if his mouth is open he can't breatheright???


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## pamnock

A common problem with attempting to hand feed isthat the baby can easily aspirate liquid into the lungs and die ofpneumonia. It's impossible for us to know if that's what hashappened in this case, but I have have seen a rabbit die afteraspirating mineral oil, and they do struggle to breathe.

You really need to separate all the adult rabbits and perhaps get thehelp of a local animal rescue or someone specializing inrabbits. Perhaps you can ask your vet for a reference.

Pam


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## KimboUNCW1

...... he died. my baby died.


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## pamnock

I'm sorry - I know it's heartbreaking when you try so hard to save them 

Pam


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## KimboUNCW1

he was fine and looked like the pictures. inever put the formula in his mouth i always let him lick it off hislips.i dont know what to do. im hyperventilating iloved that baby so much...he just shrivled away and went to sleep, hewas fine earlier today...its like after he peed so much it wentdownhill from there. he was such a little fighter:cry1:



i guess ill go get some ter. for the black one's eye


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## pamnock

Is there someone at home with you?

Pam


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## TinysMom

First of all, I've lost many babies as abreeder. In the beginning I tried to save them all and I cried overeach one. I still cry mostly...unless they're stillborn. It is hard.

But now is when you pick yourself up and make yourself take care of therabbits that you still have alive. Here are the things you need to do -you have probably done some of them.

a. Make sure the buck and the does are COMPLETELY separated.Not just separate boxes - but separate rooms of the house. Preferablycaged individually.

b. You watch your does. Count 31 days from yesterday and you can have alitter anytime within that time period. I suggest putting some hay orstraw in their boxes or cages and then when they start carrying itaround - you put in a nestbox. The mama doe may kill her young if shethinks they will be threatened by others (it is her way of protectingit) - so you really should get each doe their own "secure" home ..likea cage or something.

Many does will start nesting a few days before they're due. Forexample, last night I gave Jenny hay in her cage - she's due on the14th. She made her nest already. This is her fourth litter and shelikes to make her nest early. When I went in to check on her - she wasso proud of herself and she turned around and went to her nest andlooked at me as if to say, "Isn't it great?". She hates nestboxes andwon't use them (plus she's a big girl) so I allow her to make a nestthat she likes and she has flashing in her cage. 

My point? She's not due till the 14th but she is nesting now. However,she is an experienced doe. An inexperienced doe may wait until the lastday or so to nest.

c. I suggest you go to the thread at the top of this forumand read about when does kindle (give birth). I will try to find a fewmore links for you. You need to read now about how to handlebabies when the mamas have them so you don't freak out.

d. You also need to remember that you have two healthy kitsfrom an older litter and they can use some attention and love. I'mguessing they were 10-14 days old - in about another 3 weeks you shouldhopefully be able to check their sex or take them to a vet to getchecked. Enjoy these babies.

e. You need to think about getting your buck neutered. He must stayAWAY from the does as they will give birth and then get pregnant againimmediately. It is their instinct.

You've had a loss and I'm sorry for it. I don't mean to sound harsh orcruel - but for the sake of your other rabbits that are alive - youneed to move on and help them. They still depend upon you.

Peg*



KimboUNCW1 wrote: *


> he was fine and lookedlike the pictures. i dont know what to do. im hyperventilating i lovedthat baby so much...


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## KimboUNCW1

my mom just left for work and was late due tohelping me. my dad just got home from working, but he doesnt understandhow much the baby meant to me. i'm 23 years old you'd think i couldcompose myself better than this. i was going to call him/her faith.:?i love animals so much and take it so hard when anythinghappens to them. i guess ill feed some formula to these two and my dadcan go get the terr. do they have it at petsmart? i know they have itat feed stores here but they're closed today. its the stuff u put inwater right. or is there a cream too


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## TinysMom

You need the ointment/cream - and I'm not seeingit on the petsmart website. Not all feed stores carry it either....Iknow Tractor Supply Store does. I'm guessing Agway would.Possibly a vet would have it if you called tomorrow.

The baby will probably be fine without it if you wipe its eye with awarm damp cloth. Get the ointment if it doesn't clear up in a day or so.

Peg

edited to add: I'm twice your age and I still take it hardwhen my babies die. I'm not trying to criticize you....just remind youthat you do still have other rabbits that need your care!


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## grumpybabies

You poor thing sorry to hear about your loss offaith its got to be hard to take, but as well as the 2 big babies youwill probably be expecting another 12 babies or so from your 3 does sotry and be excited about that, and if you do have your buck operated oni have heard that for a few weeks they can still get does pregnant sobe careful, i know it depends on the type of op he has though.


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## KimboUNCW1

well it's definately been hard. i don't want todo anything wrong with the other two babies.... they still kind ofmosey around the box but i worry that they won't get enoughwater....that's what they should drink now right? water? or formulatoo? they have hay and pellets in their box too. the 'mom' doesn't stayin the box with them she lays on the floor in the corner of thebathroom. i wiped the black baby's eye with a warm washcloth a fewtimes so i guess i'll see how it looks tomorrow. it looks like there'sa little bit of puss in the corner of it.......i can't help but look atthe pictures of the tiny baby from today and yesterday. they'recompletely different, but i guess she just looked full because she hadurine built up... i rubbed her belly with a warm cloth after she ateand she went poopoo but never peepee. i pray that it wasn't something idid wrong and i pray that i can help raise these two babies to behealthy, and any other babies that may come along the way. our vetdoesn't deal with bunnies but i'll find someone that does.



also, i just fed the other babies about 2 1/2cc of formula each. ifigured thatd be good sine the mom is out of milk. i tried to give themsome water but they liked the formula better. am i doing right? i readwhere they should have almost 10cc a day is that right?


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## aurora369

They should be getting mom's milk orformula. You can add a bit of pedialyte (a drink forrehydrating children) to the formula or just make the formula withpedialyte to help keep the babies hydrated.

They will start to drink water once they are more active, in about aweek or so. Once they are interested in jumping out of thebox.

If the eye doesn't look any better in the morning, you'll need to getsome eye cream for him. Otherwise the eye will most likely goblind.

And it is completly normal for the mommy bunny to ignore herbabies. In the wild they are predators, and if the mom stayswith the babies too much, it's easier for predators to find thebabies. Once the babies are hopping around and aren't in thenest box so much, she'll show more interest.

I know it's a bit odd, but they still love there babies even if itlooks like they ignore them. They are just doing what theyknow to protect them.

--Dawn


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## KimboUNCW1

well i got the ter. cream and put it on thelittle eye. it said to put it on topical 2-4 times a day so i'll do it4 times a day to be safe. i went to wal mart to get the nic cube thingsand they were sold out but i have a couple of cages to get them by inthe mean time


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## aurora369

That's great!

Do you have a Target near by you at all? I know other members from the USA have had good luck finding them there.

How are the babies doing other than the goopy eye? Do youhave a scale to measure them on? That would be a good way tomonitor them. You don't want to see them lose weight, onlygain. 

--Dawn


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## KimboUNCW1

hmmm well i have a scale to measure human'sweights so i'll put them on there and check. they don't want that muchformula anymore and i've been trying to feed them alot b/c i worry theywont get enough liquids...i havea little plate in there withwater. there was a bit of a carrot i had in there with the mom and thebrownish baby was nawing on it...i just have pellets in there now....doi need to do the warm cloth on them to make sure they go to thebathroom? 

the eye still isn't open. i put the ter. ointment on there 4 times aday...i guess it kinda looks like it's drying up....i'll go take morepictures right now and show yall.



and regarding target, we don't have one near by. i went to wal mart andthe person i asked said she knew what i was asking about and that theysold out when school started back. petsmart had them but they were like40 dollars....and i dont think so lol i have them in some cages i hadfor our chickens and i bleached it all out and cleaned them up...




****they're too light for my scales... how much would a scale be to be able to measure them?


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## aurora369

You are going to need a scale that can measuregrams or ounces. The human scales only measure inpounds/kilograms most of the time.

If you keep your eyes out for grids, you should be able to find somesoon. Did the sales person in Walmart know when they wheregetting any more? Or could then find some at anotherlocation, and have them sent to your local store?

You can start to water down the formula a bit, but you may want to gobuy some more in case you need it for any of the babies to come.

And also make sure the babies have hay to eat as well. Ialways have tons of hay in the nest box and in the rest of the cage aswell. 

I would do a warm cloth wipe once a day just to make sure their systemskeep moving and don't get blocked up. But by about 4 weeksold they should be going on their own.

Keep putting the ointment on the black babies eye, it may take a fewdays to work. But if it doesn't seem to be doing anything atall in a day or two, you'll need to take the little one to the vets.

--Dawn


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## KimboUNCW1

the sales person didn't tell me anything aboutwhen they'd be getting them in...she made it sound like a seasonalthing when kids go to college. the babies have lots of hay in theirlittle box. they're getting around better now and are starting to hoparound pretty quickly. i'll go do the warm cloth on their bellies now.here's some more pics of them. the black one's eye looks like the pussstuff is drying up so that's good. if it's not better in a few daysi'll find a vet to take her to. i don't understand why all vets don'tdo rabbits... ugh!


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## binkies

They are way too cute! If they were any closer, I would bunnynap them.


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## aurora369

They are looking pretty good.

Just another idea for you: Use a warm compress on the blackone's eye. Hold a warm wash cloth to the eye for a fewminutes to loosen the gunk, then gently wipe it off. Keepingit clean will help you to see if there is new gunk be produced or not.

I know that Costco carries the grids seasonally as well and they seemto get them in the New Year and for Back to School. So maybeWalmart will get some in the new year.

--Dawn


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## KimboUNCW1

yeah i've been holding the warm cloth over hislittle eye and wiped it really well then put the ointment on there ....i'll be going to wilmington this friday and saturday to do the "walk"for undergrad graduation and they recently got a costco so i'll gothere and look... and the wal-marts they have there. i'll get somescales to measure the babies with as well at the wal mart in town here


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## KimboUNCW1

just a quick question....when i was rubbing thebabies to sleep, i felt on their backs a protrusion on their backs onthe left side of their back....is that normal? it felt hard....but whenthey were stretched out i didn't feel it.... am i feeling their bonesbecause they're not getting enough nutrition?? :shock:

that one's little eye looks like it's peeling a little bit... i justwipe it with a warm cloth, i dont try to peel anything away...maybeit's a scab? i saw a couple of puss type of balls come off but there'sstill more in there that i saw.....i'll keep up with it and let youknow how it's going


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## aurora369

Is it the dried up medicine?? 

You may be feeling their spines, which as long as they are notprotruding so much that you can see it should be fine. Youwill be able to feel their bones, but they shouldn't be visible to theeye.

--Dawn


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## KimboUNCW1

well i'm not sure if it's the dried up medicineor not....it looked kinda pinkish underneath it from what i couldsee....not to be graphic lol but like how a scab might peel away.... ican't see the hump on their back with my eyes but i felt it, and theblack one wasn't as big as the other ones. i'm guessing it's fine. i'llput up more pictures soon


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## KimboUNCW1

so when i clean the baby's eye and i put himback down he always scratches....well this time he scratched a lot ofwhite stuff out :shock:i can finally see his eyeball though!!it's just kind of peeling away...i don't want the 'good' stuff to peelaway like his eye lid or anything. i dont force anything off so i guessit'll all work out...



i got the scales to measure the babies and the black one weighs 4ounces and the other weighs around 2-3. everything sounding okay?


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## aurora369

Basically with the weight you just want tomonitor them from day to day. Make sure they are not loosingweight, they should always be gaining.

The baby's eye may be already damaged, or that may just be built uppuss peeling off. Keep doing warm compresses and putting theeye cream on.

Any new pictures??

--Dawn


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## KimboUNCW1

could it be damaged if all the stuff is goingaway and now i can see the eye and before i couldn't? aw i pray thathis little eye isn't damaged forever.....i'll continue with thecompresses and meds. i'll post pics soon!


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## KimboUNCW1

i gave the females tums...the quick dissolve kind yum. should i give one to the two babies?


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## TinysMom

The babies do not need Tums. It is for thefemales for about 3 days before they give birth so they don't havecalcium deficiency which can cause problems.

Peg


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## KimboUNCW1

Ok so I'm on my phone and hope you all can readthis. I'm watchin the babies and saw the lighter one using 3 legs. Herother has what looks like a scab on the bottom of her back leg. Theupper side looks like something is stickin out. The bottom is alsopinkish. I guess I never really noticed it that much til tonightbecause they always hopped slow since they were learning.


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## KimboUNCW1

Also the light ones one eye is starting to beclosed a little with some hard stuff building up. Could it be that hishair gets stuck in his eye and irritates it? I'm worried about hislittle foot too. Ill post pics tomorrow when I get new batteries forthe camera.


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## KimboUNCW1

Omg the cream bunny had 3 babies! They're kindof every now and then whining and flaling around. Maybe they wantmilk?? Or could she be stepping on them? She's real calm and notbothering them too much. Help! Lol


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## KimboUNCW1

Could it be all the fur getting in their mouths?Its flying all over the place. i moved them a little bit to get someair and they stopped going crazy like that.... i need some advice!!!!could she still have more babies?


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## TinysMom

First of all - did you see her have them orsomething? (As in...were they just born - or born during the night andyou've just found them?).

Secondly, where they in a nest?

Thirdly, is mom eating or drinking? Will she take a favorite treat?

If they are in a nest, they are flailing around looking for mama -particularly when you look into the nest. They think mama is coming tofeed them and they're getting excited and trying to smell her so theycan find her. If she made them a nest, the odds are good that she willnurse them.

Was mama still in the nest with them? If so, she may still be delivering babies. Or she could have been checking on them...

NEWBORN (as in born within the last few minutes) will flail around abit because they are so new and they are trying to find mama and tryingto figure out where to go/what to do. My experienced mamas willoftentimes nurse the first ones while giving birth to the laterones...so the babies could have been looking for mama to nurse off of.

If mama is eating and drinking or will take a favorite treat, she isprobably done giving birth. Notice, I used the word "probably". I'vehad does do this and then 24 hours later give birth to another baby. Itdoesn't happen very often and I have one doe that does this - not allof them. I might have had two does....

But if she's not eating or drinking, then yes, she could be going tohave more. You may need to flip her and check for stuck kits after afew minutes if she appears to be trying to deliver babies and nothaving any success.

Peg


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## KimboUNCW1

well i went up to check on them and i found thebabies.... no one had a cage so i had to put them in a huge tuppowearcontainer with lots of towels down n stuff thats soft..... the mom hadtons of her hair in the corner....the babies are there now under allthe fur....can they breathe??? i flipped her over and checked the ventarea...is that where they come out? lol :?i tried to feed hersome pellets from my hand and i think she was tryin to knaw on myfinger and she wouldn't drink water so maybe she's going to have more?the babies are still jumping around every now and then.... with all thefur flying around i know I couldn't breathe.....are the babies able to?or does the fur get in their mouths and suffocate them....





k i just handed her a bit of broccoli stalk and she's tearing it up...she's breathing fast but i guess they always do that? i guess shes donegiving birth...so it's normal for them to be whining and literallyjumping around? i dont want them to hit their heads and get hurt:shock:this is the first time this rabbit has givenbirth....the same age as the boy, they're just now able to have babiesim pretty sure, because when we got them they were very very small


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## TinysMom

Mamas pull fur all the time and babies are fine.If you want to clean them up a bit (carefully) - you can do so. But thebabies should probably be fine. The biggest thing will be to see if shenurses them in the next 24 hours or so...

Peg


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## KimboUNCW1

ok i'll keep checking...she's backed up to thembut not exactly touching them all right now while she eats herbroccoli....i'll keep an eye on her.....i put a bowl of water on theother end for the mom....u dont think the babies could jump in it doyou? i doubt they can get over the other end on their own right now



also, when humans handle babies, do the moms ignore them after? like birds or something? lol




oh yeah another thing...what do you think about that cream baby's backleg situation? it looks like it has a scab or something....she doesn'treally use it


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## KimboUNCW1

we have the mom flipped upside down and thebabies on ur belly tryin to nurse but they act like they're not gettingany milk...one of the babies looks fat but that could be pee built uplike the last one right?



we just put one of the older babies on the belly to see if theres anymilk and she kept going from one to the other as if she wasny gettinganything.... could she noty have milk yet due to just havungthem or something? maybe she's not done having babies??


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## KimboUNCW1

regarding the older two babies, i read this: Inhand-raised babies, it is essential to provide adult cecotropes to thebabies after their eyes are open. can you help me with this topic too?


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## KimboUNCW1

i hope there was no milk because the mom wasscared with us being in there with her SO i put a little monitor in thebathroom there with her looking in her little box..... that way i cansee her from the computer here in the living room while she's in thebathroom. i want to see if she's going to feed the babies....two of thebellies looked kinda big but i hope she cleans them so they goto thebathroom...pray for these yall



also, i put water in with the formula so they'd get to drinking waterbut they dont seem interested in drinking unless i give it to them frommy hand...i saw them nibbling pellets a little bit and some hay, butthey seem to be getting a bit lighter....what should i do?? the blackone's eye is still kinda mesed uptoo


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## grumpybabies

Are you trying to put the newborns on her tonurse while mum is upside down? i wouldn't do this its too early, shewill prob feed them fine herself, how long is it since you found them?she will be stressed with you doing that and may stop her milk comingdown, it can take a while to come through after birth with some does ithink, and it will prob only be the night after she gave birth to themso don't panic just yet! if a couple look fat i would say that was agood sign of milk not urine, because they would need to have milk inthe first place to get a build up of urine wouldn't they? i'm no experti've just had one litter recently, and i know its hard to know what todo but i'm sure she will do fine, don't help too much for the first daybecause she will catch on to what to do i'm sure.


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## KimboUNCW1

thanks for the advice!! i guess i'll go checkthem tonight and tomorrow morning to make sure they're warm and stillmoving around.... i have the box covered up with a heavy blanket/dropcloth to make sure they don't get cold..... onder:goodthing i gave the females a tums the other day... im so glad the mom isstill alive for the babies


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## TinysMom

For those who seem to think I live on the forum'cause I always show up - this is my homepage....but frequently, I willwalk away from the computer and not come back for a couple ofhours... 

First of all, let's talk about what mama did. She had babies - yes -but she pulled fur and created a nest. That means her instinct iskicking in and she knows what she needs to do. This is good.

If this was a rabbit in the wild, she'd have her babies in a hole,maybe nurse them (maybe not), cover them and hop off to get pregnantagain - and come back when she feels it is safe to nurse them anywherefrom 12 hours - 36 or 48 hours later.

Have you read the message that is pinned at the top of the rabbitry forum?

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=5541&amp;forum_id=8

I suggest you read this as it tells you what mama will do once she gives birth.

If the babies were just born today, there can be no buildup of urine(that I know of). Odds are good mama nursed them when they wereborn...which means she's going to leave them alone now for a while.

It is when a doe doesn't pull fur that I start to get concerned aboutthe babies because then her instinct doesn't seem to be kicking in.I've had does that didn't have babies in a nestbox - but whereever theyhad them - they still pulled fur...which meant they were usually goingto be a good mom. I've had does have one baby deliveredsuddenly in the middle of the cage and they head to the nestbox fortheir rest...and pull fur. Usually I've found them laying beside (oron) the one lone newborn to keep it warm....but that's just my girls.This doesn't happen often.

Anyway, I suggest you go and read the message I've linked to as it will answer many of your questions.

Peg


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## KimboUNCW1

well i checked the babies again this morning andthey all appear to have full bellies.... one did look kinda smallerthan another one tho...not less full but just shorter maybe? my oreoone (the dutch?) tried to eat me up this morning when i cleaned the hayout of her water lol and she growled and tried to slap me with herfront feet....grumpy little thing! is she about to have babies perhaps?she's never that ill



im in the process of getting the camera fixed in case you wondered why i haven't been posting new pics...



oh yeah, i put Terramycin in the formula/water so the babies won't get'enteritis'. after i read that article i went to the kitchen and gotthe terr. powder. do you think it will help to clear up the baby's eyeor the other one's leg?? 

how do i find a local breeder who can look at these babies forthemselves to make sure they on the right track to a healthy life?


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## TinysMom

I'm guessing the dutch doe is pregnant based on the way she's acting.

I never use terramycin in my baby's water so I can't tell you anythingabout that. I use the terramycin ointment if they have an infection butI don't do it in the water and I don't know of any lionhead breederswho do. Maybe Pam will see this and give her comments....

As far as finding a breeder, you could ask a feed store if they know ofany rabbit breeders in the area and then you could call them and ask ifthey could look at your babies. I can post on my lionhead list but Ican't think of anyone on the list from your area...

Peg


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## KimboUNCW1

thankfully i just found someone who would seethe two older babies tomorrow at noon.... i'll let you know what theysay about the leg and the eye.....i put the terr. powder in theformula/water b/c that article said babies die suddenly due tointestinal problems when you switch from formula to water....i dont want my babies to die so i put a little in theirform/water..... its neat to watch the cream color momma inthere with the babies on the camera.... any ideas as to what breed allmy rabbits are?


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## TinysMom

I know what it said about the terramycin, butmost breeders I know disagree with that and believe it can build upantibodies against the terramycin if you use it too much and too early.I think that was why the author of that article said that more researchneeded to be done.

Anyway, glad you found a breeder.

Peg


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## KimboUNCW1

oh dear..... :?well i'll ask the vettomorrow and get on the right track. thanks so much for all of yourhelp! i'll post pics of the new 3 when i get the camera fixed.... theoreo is making a nest with some magazine now so i'm sure she's gonnahave some soon and i'll let yall know..... i gave the two femalesanother tums


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## pamnock

Terramycin can be helpful during an "outbreak"of enteritis, however, it is not recommended to give it as apreventative for the reasons outlined by Peg.

When given at a young age over a long period of time, Tetracycline canalso effect bone growth as well as cause permanent discoloration of therabbit's teeth.



Pam


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## KimboUNCW1

i took the terr. water/formula out...it was onlyin there for about an hour and they didn't drink a lot of it.... thenewest babies are still doing okay and are nice and warm.....oreo istearing up some paper from a magazine trying to make a nest.... i'mthinking if she had the oldest babies who are about 3 weeks old thenshe has a week til she has her next batch? i'll tell yall what the vetsays about the babies tomorrow....im scared that he's going to say badstuff about the baby w/ the bad leg... :shock:


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## KimboUNCW1

well, the vet said they had lots of absesses(sp) all over their little bodies and he opened some of them andsqueezed stuff out...ouch :Xhe shaved some of their hair offtoo and even shaved open some of the absesses... he gave me somebaytril mixed in with vitamin drops to give them twice a day....he saidthe other one's eye was infected but that i need to keep puttin theter. ointment inside the eye after i literally open it up for him toput the stuff in.... poor little babies....



also he said to give them both water and formula and to not water it down...that he wants to make sure they get enough protein.


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## grumpybabies

what is causing the abscesses does he think?


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## binkies

I would love to have an update on all the babies!


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## KimboUNCW1

ok SO the dr had said maybe from a metal cagefrom the absesses but they weren't in one .... the three babies fromthe cream bunny have their eyes open! one cream one and two greyishones....AND oreo just had her babies!!! i haven't been able to tell howmany she has yet but im working on it....



i've been dealing with alot lately... my aunt passed on xmas eve fromcancer...and a horrible accident dealing with our black lab alice...shegot the grey baby....i haven't been able to recover yet...they were upin my room and due to a miscommunication about the dogs being in thehouse.....well it's just been awful...but the black big baby is doingvery well and getting so big...her eye is open now too and she nolonger has an eye infection.... i have to get a new battery pack for mycamera and when i do i'll be able to post pictures.....


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## binkies

I'm sorry for all your losses. :hug1

Congratulations on the new additions.


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## KimboUNCW1

thanks girl... its definately been atough couple of days.... i peeked in oreos cage and it looks like 5 newbabies....diff colors

but im thinking i need to put something in there so the babies donthave any chance of being on the metal cage.... theres tons of hay andnewspaper shavings in there for them and the mom pulled her fur out forthe babies but i dont want them having any kind of absesses.... theolder three from the cream mama are just simply PERFECT...they're sosoft and beautiful...the mom couldn't have done a better job for themi'm so proud of her.... since they are opening their eyes now, are theyable to drink kmr or water on their own now? or does the mom stillnurse them.... i dont want them to dehydrate in any way so when doesthe mom's milk dry up?


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## TinysMom

Forgive me please for being dense - but I'm trying to recap for those who might have been following the thread...

a. You first found three babies. One was a newborn and itdied shortly afterwards. You then had 2 babies - older ones left. Onewas black and one was tannish or something - is the tannish one the onethat died?

b. Later another bunny had 3 babies. These are all still alive and their eyes are open.

c. Now Oreo (probably the mom of the black one still alive above)...has had five more babies.

So if I'm following everything correctly that means you have 9 babies now...right?

black baby + 3 babies w/ eyes open + 5 newborns?

I just wasn't sure if Alice got a baby (it sounded like she did) or an adult..

I'm sorry for your losses by the way. I'll go back and check the thread'cause if memory serves me correctly you may have one more mama thatwill have babies...

Peg


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## TinysMom

Ok - I just went back and reviewed this thread.If Floppy hasn't had babies yet - then she could have them anytimebetween now and approx. January 10th (more likely the 8th but I added acouple of days there just in case she went over).

Hopefully, since you separated them on Dec 8th - that will be your last litter of babies...if she has any.

If Floppy has had them - then it is the other doe (not Oreo) who can have them by that date...

Good luck with the babies..

Peg

P.S. I have had babies get abcesses before - usually tinyones that I clean out. Personally, I think it happens cause maybe mamadoesn't clean them enough - so I check them every couple of days justin case mama doesn't appear to be doing a good job. It usually happenswith my first time mamas and not mamas who have had otherlitters... But that is just personal OPINION based on myexperiences....not fact!


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## TinysMom

I've had mamas nurse babies for 8 weeks sometimes (depends upon the mama and how attached she is to her kids, etc). 

Don't interfere and she'll teach them how to drink water from a bottleor bowl (whatever you use) and she'll teach them to eat food.

I make sure my babies get oats (I just pull a handful out of the QuakerOats thing and feed them raw) and hay along with the pellets...in fact,I tend to start them on oats and hay first...

But mama knows what to do and if she's left with them, she will nursethem. Her milk will dry up if she's pregnant but since she shouldn't bepregnant again, you don't have to worry.

She'll wean them if you don't....

Peg*


KimboUNCW1 wrote:*


> since they areopening their eyes now, are they able to drink kmr or water on theirown now? or does the mom still nurse them.... i dont want them todehydrate in any way so when does the mom's milk dry up?


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## JadeIcing

Oh wow


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## KimboUNCW1

yes you got it all straight! i'm on my way to myaunt's 'viewing' so i'll check back when i get back....thanks so muchfor your help


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## KimboUNCW1

im back from the funeral...it's been a roughcouple of days.... the oreo bunny has 5 beautiful babies! one's blackwith pink on the tip of his nose, 3 grey ones, and a white one!! theolder three babies with their eyes open are so dang adorable...the mamais such a great mama.... i really do wonder if the floppy ear one willhave babies!! i had her seperate since the 8th or so...but i'll waittil the 10th of january to be sure of any babies! i'm glad the creammama's milk won't dry up b/c she isn't preggers again lol i think ifound a home for the male...one of my friends' hair dresser lovesanimals and used to have rabbits and would love to have twomales....we'll see though...what in the WORLD am i going to do with allthe bunnies when they grow up lol i get so attatched to my little pets


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## TinysMom

As long as the two males are in two SEPARATE cages...they should do fine. However, two males together will usually fight.*

KimboUNCW1 wrote:*


> i think ifound a home for the male...one of my friends' hair dresser lovesanimals and used to have rabbits and would love to have twomales....


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## KimboUNCW1

i had no idea.....i'll make sure to talk aboutwhat she wants to do and then make my decision.... i really want a nicehome for him that's indoors with a loving family who gives him lots ofroom to play



i feel bad just giving him away but i also feel like i don't know if i should charge money for her to buy him....any thoughts??


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## JadeIcing

Maybe make it on the condition that he getsfixed and stays indoors. Also to return him to you if she can't keephim indoors or if for any reason can't keep him period.


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## naturestee

:yeahthat Although I'd allow foroutdoor housing if it's safe, large, and you're sure the rabbits willalways get good care even in bad weather. I wouldn't beconcerned about charging an adoption fee unless you need to use it toweed out people who just want free animals or snake food.

I know you love your babies, but you have so many that it will be hardto take care of them. Remember that you'll have to have themall separated by gender before they're 3 months old and that they mightnot all get along with each other, especially when they becometeenagers. So it is best to start looking for good homes now.


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## JadeIcing

You have what 9 babies now? 5 from one, 3 from another, Than 1 from the first litter?

How many adult rabbits?


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## KimboUNCW1

3 adult females and 1 adult male...... 





snake food?? :shock:


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## JadeIcing

Some people will take rabbits that are free or cheap to feed to snakes.


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## TinysMom

I would do a $15 adoption fee that gets refundedupon letter from a vet that the animal has been neutered - with a 90day refund. After 90 days - you keep the $15....before then....set itaside and don't touch it.

Just my .02

Peg*

KimboUNCW1 wrote: *


> i had no idea.....i'llmake sure to talk about what she wants to do and then make mydecision.... i really want a nice home for him that's indoors with aloving family who gives him lots of room to play
> 
> 
> 
> i feel bad just giving him away but i also feel like i don't know if i should charge money for her to buy him....any thoughts??


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## KimboUNCW1

sounds good....my friend said she'll prob say no b/c 75 is too much to fix a rabbit....





i hate to be picky but i want the best for my little man 
.... what if she just plans on having one bunny?


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## KimboUNCW1

just wondering if this is normal..... the oreobunny has what looks like diarrea (sp) and when i pet her i can feelher ribs?? none of them have had dirrea before.... she has plenty offood and water and even a carrot...i haven't changed her dietwhatsoever.... she won't eat her carrot and all of the adults get acarrot every other day or so and they tear them up the moment i give itto them.... :?


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## KimboUNCW1

the oldest baby is about a pound now!! theabsesses that the vet opened up are almost all dried out...i noticedone absess on his little back though and it seems to have puss built upunderneath it.... i've looked online at info about them and i'm stilldoing the baytril/vitamin drops twice a day like the vet told me to.should i try to open it up to let it drain out? i hate that the vetsare closed right now when i need them...


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## naturestee

Anyone know why her babies are getting abscesses?:?

About the diarrhea, is she having normal fecal poops _and_diarrhea (indicates cecal problems) or just diarrhea? Is sheeating hay, like timothy hay? The fiber would do her somegood. Alfalfa hay might be too rich. Also, a smallamount of rolled oats can help with diarrhea.

I'm not sure if nursing moms tend to loose weight- breeders, do you know?

Keep a really close eye on her to make sure she's eating andpooping. It helps to clean the cage several times a day soyou know how much she's producing and when.


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## KimboUNCW1

well it's coastal hay for our horses and i justput some for the bunnies too... i think it may be called something elsebut im not sure. the poop wasn't just diarrhea by itself; it hadregular mixed in as well.... i put more hay on the floor for her soi'll be able to see if she's doing it anymore....

should i be cleaning the oldest black bunny baby with a warm rag orsomething b/c of the absesses? the vet said the baytril/hi vit dropswould clear them up....but theres just one i'm concerned about; but mebeing concerned doesn't mean there's a problem lol


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## TinysMom

I've got no idea about why the babies aregetting abcesses. I personally think they need to be drained...but ofcourse a vet isn't open right now.

I am very concerned about the mom losing weight. My does don't usuallylose weight because they are getting fed more food. My concern is thatthe diaherrea could be a symptom of something else maybe? I need tolook up mastitits...but I would be concerned about that.

The best thing to do right now is to keep her eating and drinking andtrying to get the diaherrea under control. I'm in the middle of stuffnow but I'll try to look up mastititis and there is something else I'mtrying to think of....

Peg*

naturestee wrote: *


> Anyone know why her babies are getting abscesses?:?
> 
> About the diarrhea, is she having normal fecal poops _and_diarrhea (indicates cecal problems) or just diarrhea? Is sheeating hay, like timothy hay? The fiber would do her somegood. Alfalfa hay might be too rich. Also, a smallamount of rolled oats can help with diarrhea.
> 
> I'm not sure if nursing moms tend to loose weight- breeders, do you know?
> 
> Keep a really close eye on her to make sure she's eating andpooping. It helps to clean the cage several times a day soyou know how much she's producing and when.


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## KimboUNCW1

k... i hope this works: heres a pic of the 3 babies from the cream mama....



















i took pics of the baby with the absess and am uploading them now




ok here's the black baby's absess, i hope you can see it... it's sticking out of her little back..


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## KimboUNCW1

here's a pic of the oreo mama:





and here's the 5 new babies...u can't really see them that well i guess


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## KimboUNCW1

well this morning miss orero mama had drank somewater and when i showed her a carrot she nibbled on it some...so that'sgood... no more diharrea either....and i checked the babies and they'reall plump little babies....


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## binkies

Wonderful! :bunny18


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## KimboUNCW1

i took a quick pic of one of the babies...it'skinda blurry but she has white and pink above her nose and white tipson the ends of her feet!!!





here's a pic of the floppy ear one... is she a holland lop??





and here's one of the little man


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## binkies

I need more baby pictures!!!


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## KimboUNCW1

here's some new pics of the babiessssssssss

here's the 3 from the cream color mama:

























here's the 5 from the dutch mama:


























and here's pics of the oldest baby!! 







she can run really fast now :bunnydance:


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## binkies

OH they are getting so big! I will take one from each litter  (Just talk to Tulla about that first!)


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## KimboUNCW1

ok so the wait is over the lop had 6 dangbabies!! i had given up on her lol...now i'm trying to find somethingto put them all in so none of them fall thru any of the cage....shepulled lots of fur so she's gonna be a good mama



what in the world am i going to do with all these buns lol :shock:



:bunnydance:


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## JadeIcing

Umm...how many....now....


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## KimboUNCW1

well it was 13 counting the parents and babiesand now 19 :shock::shock::shock:how in the WORLD did i letthis get by me lol


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## JadeIcing

Wish I was near by to help.


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## TinysMom

I understand perfectly.....and I'm a breeder even! 

At least now you know you won't have any more.....as long as you startseparating out the baby bucks from the mamas when they reach 7-8 weeksold....and maybe have the mamas neutered.

Peg
*
KimboUNCW1 wrote: *


> well it was 13 countingthe parents and babies and now 19 :shock::shock::shock:how inthe WORLD did i let this get by me lol


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## JadeIcing

I think you stepped up to the plate and that is ALOT more than most. You are taking care of them the best you can. :bunnydance:


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## TinysMom

Thanks for pointing this out - I should have said something like that...

It sounds like you're taking good care of them....pictures again soon?

Peg*

JadeIcing wrote: *


> I think you stepped up tothe plate and that is ALOT more than most. You are taking care of themthe best you can. :bunnydance:


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## binkies

OH my goodness! You are doing a wonderful jobhelping the mommas take care of the babies. Thank goodness you know forSURE there aren't any more babies coming.


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## JadeIcing

*KimboUNCW1 wrote: *


>


Can I have this one?


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## KimboUNCW1

absolutely!! lol come on now...anyone else want some buns? ullhair:lol

SO the oldest black baby is about 2 months now... she/he (i def need tofigure that out) is all alone in her own place so she/he's good.

the 3 middle babies were born dec 16th... so they're about 3 weeks and still with mom...

oreo had her 5 the 28th so i'm good for a little while before worrying about them with mom

and cinnabun had her 6 TODAY so i'm just praying she figures out i putthem in a shallow cardboard box instead of the hay (i didn't want themto fall out of the cage any way)... i moved all of her hair and they'repretty much in the same spot just in a more secure area.... they arebraaaand new and so so so tiny aw




oh yeah....i drove to the nearest target 1hr 1/2 away and got 2 boxesof thosewire storage cubes!the boy (milo i namedhim!) is hangin out on the 2nd floor lol.... i had to make it thinnerthen i thought b/ci stilldon't haveenoughroom to put all the cages comfortably but it's waybetter than his last cage


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## KimboUNCW1

ok so guess what.... the boy just got in thecage with the girl... our genius plan of making him a door, and....well basically i found the boy in there with the lop mom...:shock:so i'm freaking out. should i get her fixed asap??? ifi do, can she still nurse?? i don't want to jeapordize her new litterat all.... someone please help me im going to lose my mind


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## JadeIcing

Uh oh!:shock:Can't help you though. I have no idea.


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## KimboUNCW1

i mean seriously it seems like a negative cloudhas been over my head for 2 months now lol i think someone else needsto take all my rabbits (except for my oldest black baby) becauseobviously i'm not responsible enough to keep them from having babiesand i dont have the money to get them all fixed


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## TinysMom

I would think that she can not nurse if she getsspayed but I don't know. I would think that the pain of the surgerywould be enough to keep her from nursing - let alone milk drying up.

BUT - I don't know that for sure. All that I know is that ifit was my decision - the boy would be getting neutered this week andI'd plan on one more litter and pray I didn't get any.....but at leastyou'd know what to watch for as far as mama's milk drying up, etc.

Hope that makes sense.

Peg


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## KimboUNCW1

what am i gonna do if her milk dries up? and how soon will that happen if she's preg again :cry3


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## TinysMom

Her milk won't dry up for a bit - and by thenthe babies will have their eyes open. If need be, you can put them inwith an older litter that has been weaned and the older litter willteach them how to use the water bottle (if that is what you use).

The key thing is that they need to stay with mama and be nursed until their eyes open and they can start to eat.

I'd say that they can probably stay with her for 3 weeks from today and she won't hurt them. 

And who knows? Maybe you're in luck and she didn't get pregnant ormaybe she'll have a false pregnancy around day 18 or so and pull furbut not have babies.

However, the key to keeping this from happening again is have dad NEUTERED. ASAP.

Just my .02

Peg


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## KimboUNCW1

yeah im def going to take him this week....tomorrow if i can. i just really hate the fact that i was soirresponsible here....im trying so hard to do the right thing for therabbits and it seems like it's just an uphill battle that i keep losing


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## TinysMom

You know what? Some of the best advice I ever got was this...

"Hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20."

Looking back - we can always see things we could have done differently. That's life. 

Don't beat yourself up over it. You TRIED to do the right thing. Youdid your best to separate them. Perhaps we should have been morespecific and said stuff like, "Make sure he's in a completely differentroom" or "Make sure he's outside if that is what he's used to". Maybewe weren't specific enough in our help.

I suggest that you do the following.

Get a hot cup of tea (or some sort of drink that is comforting). Ifneed be...get chocolate. Enjoy whatever it is and just relaxand let yourself calm down.

Then - pat yourself on the back. You TRIED to do the right thing. Atleast he ONLY got to one doe - not to all three. Right? Soyeah....that's two litters you don't have to worry about. 

Make the best home you can for the babies till you find them homes.Watch out for the lop mama and just know she'll probably have morebabies. She should probably be ok....but write down today's date and onday 28...start giving her tums so she doesn't have calcium deficiency.

If you can afford to get him neutered - do it asap. If you can't affordit - can you either move him outside or to a completely different room?

Some day you will look back on all this and laugh..or smile. There'senough people out there in the world who will want to beat you up overstuff like this - don't beat yourself up. Learn from it - and move on.

We're here for you.

Peg*

KimboUNCW1 wrote: *


> yeah im def going totake him this week.... tomorrow if i can. i just really hate the factthat i was so irresponsible here....im trying so hard to do the rightthing for the rabbits and it seems like it's just an uphill battle thati keep losing


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## naturestee

:yeahthat You've been trying reallyhard. Accidents happen though, and it's no reason to beatyourself up. You're doing a good thing by getting himneutered and it might make him easier to rehome. Hopefullysomeone near you will be able to adopt him and some of your babies whenthey're old enough. That's an awful lot to take careof! I can't even imagine it!


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## Haley

You've gotten some great advice. I just wanted to send some hugs andgood thoughts your way.

You've done all you can to fix the situation. I know how frustrated andstressed you must be, but youre doing great. Just try your hardest tofind these babies loving homes and chalk it up as a lesson learned. 

Oh, and check out the top of the rescue section for some tips on rehoming. 

Good luck!

-Haley


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## KimboUNCW1

well one of the new babies died ibet it was because the dad was in there...maybe he stepped on them orsomething...the other 5 are still doing good....



oreo's 5 have their little eyes open now too.... i put the cream momwith her 3 babies in the new cage too while the dad is secure in his...


thanks for your kind words and support yall


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## KimboUNCW1

regarding the oldest black baby....she's maybe 2months and some.... do they growl at that age??? she's fine and when igoto get her out of her box she makes noises...im holding her now andits like sjes making that noise when she breathes....its not all thetime tho.... is she havin trouble breathing???? ill take her to the vettomorrow if i need to


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## SunnieBunnie Rabbitry

It depends on the type of noise she's making.

Does it sound a little grunty? Does it sound like snoring? oris it more like a "popping" sound like there may be fluid?

Could you be a little more descriptive? I know it's hard totranslate sounds into words, but the more information you can providethe easier it is to help.

~Sunshine


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## KimboUNCW1

could it be her being lonely from being byherself all the time? like i'm not playing with her enough? maybe she'snervous in her new cage...she's extremely small compared to the middleaged babies...is that b/c she didn't get moms milk as much as they didfrom their mom??


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## SunnieBunnie Rabbitry

In regards to our PM's... Good luck at the Vet's tomorrow, I hope it's nothing serious.

ray:

~Sunshine


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## TinysMom

It is hard to know what the noise is like from the way you've described it.

Babies will grunt, scream, and sometimes talk when they eat. Puck andSugarBear are always talking while they eat. Some of my does will gruntat me if they want me to leave them alone. I've got some babies thatare screamers (not often) but as soon as I pick them up - until theyget used to it - they scream (usually only bucks and only from oneparent).

If she was making a wheezing type sound or coughing type of sound...then yes, you might want to be concerned.

Is the baby used to being held? If it isn't used to being held then it could be trying to show that it is nervous.

Is there any discharge from the nose? discharge from the eyes? Does thebaby have a poopy butt form diaherrea? These are things that wouldconcern me.

You mention the baby being smaller than the others...but you mustremember that each mama and each litter is different. I have some mamaswho have 3 week old babies that are HUGE and other mamas who have olderbabies that are tiny...yet in the end, they all seem to catch up to thesize they need to be.

If it were me, I'd watch the baby and see - does it make the noise allthe time? Does it seem to just make the noise when it is surprised?Does the baby appear to be giving any other signals (like maybe backinginto a corner to show it is afraid)?

I take it that you're going to the vet tomorrow....good luck! If Iremember right - this thread was started around 12/8 and we thoughtthat those babies were around 2 weeks old then - maybe 3 weeks old atthe most....

If I am right and this is Oreo's baby (do I have the name right?) -then it is 31-32 days older than Oreo's newest litter....that shouldhelp you give the vet the baby's age.

One more thing to consider....ask your vet if you can put a sign upadvertising the bunnies. I'm guessing they'll let you - and you willknow that if someone calls you because they saw the sign at the vet'soffice - there is a better chance that they are already a responsiblepet owner who uses a vet.....

Peg


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## Spring

Wow! Sneaky bunny! I guess the boy just wanted to be with his ladies.. .

:muscleman:

Don't beat yourself up, accidents happen. It'll all start to look up, Ipromise . I'd be in bunny heaven with all those little ones!

Keep us updated!


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## KimboUNCW1

welp the earliest apmt i could get is tomorrowat 2:15... i always pick up and handle the bun b/c i give her baytriland vitamin drops twice a day like the vet said.... .03 twice a day,which i bet i should be increasing but the guy never told me to. shewas running around the room and making the noise, and even when i'd beholding her or feeding her a carrot.... she's by herself in my room somaybe she's lonely? maybe i should put her out there in the barn withthe others in her own cage so she won't be lonely?


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## SunnieBunnie Rabbitry

If you're giving her Baytril, I'm assuming she'sill. If that's the case, I would highly suggest NOT takingher near the other rabbits in case it's easily transmitable (as manyrabbit illnesses are).

As I stated in my PM based on the descriptions you told me, it sounds like she's just nervous or uncomfortable.

I know reading these things online doesn't give the whole feeling ofcomfort (as going to the vet would) - but be vigilant. Payclose attention to how she's acting, what the noise sounds like (pain,nervous, upset, etc.), trust your instincts... if she seems somewhat"off" in her behavior &amp;/or health, then a vet appointment isthe absolute best route, but if she seems otherwise normal then maybejust keeping an eye out for other signs before you make the stressingtrip to the vet's with her.

Either way, good luck and I hope it's nothing serious.

~Sunshine


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## KimboUNCW1

well the vet put her on baytil because she hadabsesses and she wasn't cared for by her mother that much; the mom gotpreg again.


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## KimboUNCW1

well my vet apmt is at 2:15 today; she's notmaking the noises anymore since i put her in her new pen area... me andmy bf went to petsmart and got her a snack shack! lol aaaaand a littlefruit salad with timothy hay :bunnydance:i guess it wouldhurt to take her to the vet still so he can check her out to see if herabsesses are bad and if she's a she for sure lol



oh yeah, i put one of the cream mama's babies in there with her to playfor a little bit and she tried to hump them! :shock:do theydo this to show they're alpha buns?! i smelled somethin after she didthat too lol what in the world! so they should all be in their own cageby week 7? is that so they don't fight? or b/c they can reproduce atthat point....


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## SunnieBunnie Rabbitry

They should all be separated (at least bygender) by 7-8 weeks of age. Mainly because yes, it ispossible for them to reproduce at (and slightly after) that age andbecause it helps resolve any fighting issues.

Yes, rabbits will mount each other (females too) to showdominance. The smell you were smelling is probably the muskreleased from the vent scent glands (near their genitals).This smell lets the others know where that rabbit stands as far asdominance, age, gender, and reproductively.

~Sunshine


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## KimboUNCW1

so all that was wrong with bunny was her absessneeded to be drained some more... so she's good to go now! yesterdayshe started heaving but breathing thru her nose and i looked and shehad something sticking out of her nose and i pulled it out and it was along peice of hay! :shock:and the vet said to increase thebaytril to a full cc twice a day. :bunnydance:


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## KimboUNCW1

just curious when are the babies okay to be awayfrom their mom... the 3 from the cream mama will be a month on jan 16thand i was wondering when they'd be good to go regarding a new home?



7 to 8 weeks im assuming from the previous responses


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## Haley

yup, 7-8 weeks


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## KimboUNCW1

the youngest batch have just started to opentheir little bitty eyeballs!!! :bunnydance:they are all sooopretty!! some of them are one color on top and another under theirbelly!!! ill def take pics tomorrow and show you guys!! i'm waitin tosee if lop mama has any more...good lord...she does kinda look big butshe's just big anyways im guessing....


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## KimboUNCW1

there&#39;s a lady 2 hrs away who wants to buns so i&#39;m going back and forth with her asking her questions and getting info on her...i was guessing 30 bucks for two is good...what do yall think? it&#39;s regarding two of the cream mama&#39;s babies. of course they&#39;ll be old enuf to be seperated in a week and i&#39;ll be able to tell what sex they are then...



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## TinysMom

Please tell us she isn&#39;t going to breed them....and that if she is. .. you&#39;re not selling her brother/sisters?

I would be very wary about selling anyone two cross-breed buns that are the opposite sex as they will breed rabbits and cause more rabbit population and there are so many in shelters.

Peg


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## KimboUNCW1

nah she just wants two for her children....im screening her right now



she wants floppy ear buns... and im not even certain the babies&#39; ears will be floppy. the mom&#39;s are but the dad&#39;s aren&#39;t....what are your thoughts on that?


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## aurora369

I don&#39;t know much about genetics, but I would imagine they&#39;d start to lop by know if they where going to. Maybe they will have airplane ears?

Make sure you tell her to keep them seperate untill they are both spayed and neutered if they are brother sister!! Tell her over and over, so she will know 100% how quickly a girl can get pregnant, and make sure she tells her kids too.

--Dawn


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## KimboUNCW1

so the woman said she talked to someone she had gotten 2 buns from before and that he had a litter of 17 but &#39;he wasn&#39;t sure if they would make it or not because of how cold it is&#39;....sounds sketchy to me, i mean i&#39;ve kept MY litters in our horse barn so they&#39;d be warm.... maybe it&#39;s just me....i&#39;m waiting to see what the woman wants to do. im not that desperate to get them new homes but if some present themselves i&#39;ll consider them.


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## KimboUNCW1

well folks the lop mom had 7 babies.....i justKNEW she got knocked up again when the dad got in there somehow.... soi've taken the other babies out and put them in their own little condowhile she's alone with her new litter....i hope they all make it..... ijust can't believe how i have 25 or so buns now lol classic


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## aurora369

Oh man, seven new babies?

How old are all the babies now? I would make sure any of them8 weeks and older are seperated into boys and girls, just to be supersafe. Last thing you need is another litter....

Have you had any success finding homes for some of the older babies?

--Dawn


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## TinysMom

I'm sorry - but I'm ROFLOL here (not at you...) but at bunny math.

3 girls + 1 buck (X 2 chances for the buck to get them pregnant (cause he got loose)) = 25.

I wish that bunny math worked for my bank account....

Anyway - what I would do about the older litters (yes - separate outthe boys if they're 8 weeks old or older)....is to put ads in.....VET'SOFFICES....

Really...I figure if someone saw my ad in a vet's office - that means they go there already - right?

Just my .02

Peg


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## KimboUNCW1

well :tears2:i have sad news.... when i went tocheck on the babies this morning some how some of them got our of theirlittle nest and froze. and i guess 3 couldn't stay warm enuftogether....6 of them passed away and 1 is left. i brought the one andthe mom inside and i have a little heater set on low just in case theyget chilly but dont get too hot. im so sad and i feel so responsible.just thought i'd update yall. :cry1:it's been so cold out buti have all of the buns covered up with some of our heavy horse blanketsso they dont get cold....


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## JadeIcing

I am very sorry. 

I thought you had them inside now.


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## JAK Rabbitry

Do you live near a Petsmart? Petsmart hasrecently teamed up with Banfield veterinary hospital, and most or allPEtsmart should have a Banfield inside of them by now. All of ours donow. And most of them do treat bunnies and they really did a lot for myGideon. 

go to www.petsmart.com and do store locator and search the Banfield nearest to you and call and see if they will see a bunny.


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## KimboUNCW1

nah i have them all in the barn with ourhorses.... the mom and last baby are inside on the table right now...ihave a plastic tupperware type thing for her water and she keepsturning it over...i wonder why? no litters have frozen to death beforei just feel so horrible...i always check them to make sure they'restill together in their hole in the hay....


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## KimboUNCW1

so i put some more water in there so the momwould drink it and when i came to check on the baby she was moving moreslowly...and the mom had emptied the water.... i think she might havedumped it on the baby???? i dont feel the baby being wet butthe hay under her kinda is.... what do i do????? OMG


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## TinysMom

It is very tough to know what to do in thissituation. I would remove the baby from the mother and pull out the wetstuff. I'd put the baby in a small shoebox and if necessary (this willsound crazy) - use dryer lint to keep it warm. (Hopefully you don't usescented sheets in the dryer. Give the lint a little shake before youuse it to get rid of the dust.

The key thing here is going to keep baby WARM enough to survive -andtake it to mama to nurse it (just like you've done before if I rememberright).

But I think right now, I'd try to keep them both inside if possible andkeep baby warm as much as you can and just keep taking it to mama.

You can also put the baby inside your bra to warm it up (just make sure to keep its nose clear so it can breathe).

Peg

P.S. I'd write more but I'm out of town.


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## KimboUNCW1

so i have her withme under the elctricblanket where its warm but not hot. is it normal for them to yawn? alsocurl up in a little ball? what about stretching his back legs outstraight....she's not moving around all that much. sometimes i'll seeher try to nurse.... she's just slow moving. but im keeping her warm.i'll check back in a little. my aim name is KimboUNCW1 for anyone whoreads this and can help


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## KimboUNCW1

also, maybe she's dreaming? she just startedshaking a little bit..her whole body. she's jerking around a little bitevery so often but could it be because she's dreaming? she's not makingany noises or anything.





i put the baby in there with the mom and she wasn't really respondingand i pulled some fur away and tried to put her on a nipple and nowshe's upside down under the mom so thats good i guess....she was movingaround trying to nurse i think


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## aurora369

Babies will generally lie still for the most part. Growing takes lots of energy.

It is normall for them to 'dream' and make little suckling motions withtheir mouths. I've also see them stick their little legs outstraight too. They will also do a twitchy body thing too,kind of like hiccups.

Upside down under mom is good. She should be moving fromnipple to nipple and spending about 5-10 seconds on each one thenswitching to a new nipple.

Can you get the mom a water bottle? So she can't dump thewater dish? Or even a heavy water crock made of ceramics willwork.

Make sure this little one stays warm at all times until its fur startsto grow in. Once its got fur he/she will be able to keep heatbetter.

--Dawn


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## KimboUNCW1

k so i wet my finger and wet the nipple a littlebit and put the baby right on it and it looked like she went to town onit and it sounded like she was getting milk out.... i'll see what i canfind for a water bottle.... is there any reason for me to think thatshe won't be able to get milk? she's the only baby left so i imagineshe'll have lots to choose from. the mom is being still for the babybut i mean it looks like it'd be hard for the baby to get really underthere with the mom croutching down with her belly touching the ground.



why would the mom contintue to tip over her water? maybe i'll use abowl that we eat cereal out of...it's glass and heavy. thats what i hadin her cage earlier so maybe she hates it b/c it's different-i just notthought about that...


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## KimboUNCW1

so i just checked on the baby andilifted the mom's tummy and the baby's just laying there under her.... itook her out to make sure she was okay and she wasn't moving muchagain. i found another nipple and tried to put her on it and she didn'tmove around. is it normal?? am i just trying to force her to feed rightnow when she doesn't want to or is full? she has a round belly and allstill so i mean she doesn't look starved to death. i just know thatwhen i went to check on this baby when she was with the others, theyall jumped around n stuff....this one isn't. :?



how do you know if the mom is rejecting the baby? she licks him n stuff when he's under her.


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## aurora369

If the baby's belly is all round, the it's beenfed. If mom is still licking it and staying still fornursting, then the mom has not rejected it.

Take the baby out and keep it warm and try feeding again in about 6hours. The baby may be lethargic because it's cold.So maybe stick him in your bra for a bit.

--Dawn


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## KimboUNCW1

k i put her in my bra and she's kinda chillyfeeling in there... she wasn't cold or anything when i felt her but iguess she's not as warm as she could be...so i'ma keep her warm. i haveto work in the mornin so i'll be going to bed around 11 or so...what doyall suggest i do for tonight.... take the mom and baby upstairs andturn on the plug in heater for them? or should i keep the baby awayfrom the mom....should i take the glass water bowl away for tonight tobe safe? or no....


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## aurora369

What I did when I had a tiny little orphaned baby I was fostering, I used a shoe box to make an incubator.

I fill the shoe box with hay and nesting materials, maybe you can transfer what ever is left in the nest to the shoe box.

I then used a heating pad set on low. My heat pad has aquilted cover, so I would set in on low and put the shoe box ontop. If you don't have a cover, then wrap the heating pad ina towell. You may also want to leave some of the box off theheating pad so if the baby gets too warm he can crawl off the heatsource.

That would be your best bet to keeping the baby warm. Thentake the baby to mom two to three times a day for feeding. 

Once the baby has fur, you can start leaving him in the cage with mom.

--Dawn


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## KimboUNCW1

k i'll put her in a shoe box with some hay in iton top of the electric blanket.... i hope works...ill put the baby withthe mom while im at work i guess??? i guess i'll have the plug inheater on the cage on low. i get off at 4:30 and then i have to take mylap top to this computer guy. im praying for this little one :nerves1


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## aurora369

I actually left the box on the heating pad whenI went to work, although I'm sure it was a big fire hazard...I didn't want the babe to get cold, so I kept him in the incubator atall times unless he was feeding.

Is the baby feeling warmer now? Is he moving around more?

--Dawn


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## JAK Rabbitry

Can you perhaps purchase a replatil heat lamp?We're using one now for our baby chicken. If you where to direct thelamp at her cage, i'm sure it could help. 

Oh and they make heating rocks for reptiles, too. Its a big flat rockthey can sit on and you plug it in and it gets warm. These are sold atpet stores and stuff, maybe look into one of these and heat lamp?


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## TinysMom

bumping for an update?

Peg


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## KimboUNCW1

ahh long day at work sorry it took so long yall!she made it thru the night well and i put her with mama while i was atwork. she seems good still. i have the heater plugged in and facingtowards mom and baby so they dont get chilly. she's just a perfectlittle baby gettin such a fat little belly and some more fuzzy hair.ray:i was up and down all night making sure she was stillwarm enough. pray for this little one for me! so far so good!!
~kimbo~


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## aurora369

Sounds like she's doing good! 

The one foster mom I had who only had one baby would feed him all the time and he ended up so fat. It was really cute.

--Dawn


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## KimboUNCW1

bad news. i went to check on the baby and shehas a sunken belly. she was so fat and now she's fading away in myhands....i have her next to the heater with me and she's justmaking little noises...i tried to give her formula but its nouse.....





what happened???


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## JAK Rabbitry

Did mum's milk dry up? I hada first time mumwho's milk randomly went dry after 2 weeks and the babies starteddying. I lost 3, but was able to foster the other two on another doe.


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## KimboUNCW1

i guess maybe it did b/c the other 6 died....andthis one is suffering still... i put her back in the cage to be besideher mom. i really hate this happened...i dont have another mom that hasbabies and has milk. im so upset about this b/c she was doing so welland was getting her little hair in and had a fat belly.... im going totry to lay down i guess.... :tears2:


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## JAK Rabbitry

It happens. Can you try and help her nurse?That's probably the best thing you can do right now to make sure shedoesn't get too weak.


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## KimboUNCW1

i def did try to get her to nurse but i guess itwas too late.....im guessing there was no milk left. i hate that thebaby had to suffer like that... i feel horrible. i checked her thismorning and she had passed.


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## TinysMom

I'm so sorry about your loss. I do understand itas I got up this morning to find out we'd lost a kit too. I had figuredwe would - sometimes you just can't help them. But it stillhurt...

Peg


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## JAK Rabbitry

I hate losing kits too...don't we all. It usedtoreally bother me when my rabbits were strictly pet and 4H projects. Nowthat I have so many and I breed so much...it doesn't really get to meas badly. Its still sad, and I always wish it to not happen, but happenit does on occasion and It doesn't hurt so deeply anymoreTo lose onekit and have 4 other litters survive...then I still have alot of babies. 

So, enjoy the babies you do have, that di make it. Be proud that helpedraise them and be second mommmy to them. Take pride in youraccomplishments, and don't dwell on your losses too long.


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## JadeIcing

Any updates?


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## KimboUNCW1

everyone is doing well still....and getting sobig. everyone will be in their own cage in the next day or so as wellas the 2nd batch is now time to be seperated from mama


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