# My Foster Rabbit Has Just Given Birth



## *Spider* (Jul 24, 2009)

I am fostering a mother and her four week old babies for my friend's rabbit rescue in Essex (she may even be a member on here)

Anyway - Angel has just had her second litter. There are 2 in the nest. 

Shall I seperate the 4 week old babies?

Also there isa lot of blood in a part of her hutch - how can I clean this up - I don't want to upset Angel.

They have a temporary 5ft hutch (only for fostering - they will all be rehomed to bigger hutches) and in the enclosed space is their toilet (all hay) and this is where the nest is. I would like to clean this out. How can I do that? 

I have posted as I can't get hold of my friend and post on another forum but no one is replying so I have been directed here.


*Here is some more info:*

- Location: *Essex*

- Description (Breed, color., weight): *Polish X*

- Age: *11 months
*
- spayed/neutered?: *No - will be when rehomed.*

- Notes on Fecal and Urinary Output
- are the bunny's poops and pees normal?: *yes* 
- When did they last use their litterbox?: *today
* - Any unusual behavior? : *no
*
- Medical History -- has s/he been to the vet or been sick before? *she went yesterday*

- Diet - what does your bunny eat?: *fresh hay and A&P Breeder's Pellets*
- when and what did s/he eat last?: *today*
- movement - any unusual movements? Is s/he hopping normally?:*yes
*
- are there any plants, chocolate or other substances within reach? * No

*- has the rabbit been outdoors? *She is in a hutch outdoors but not on the grass since the rescue has had her.
*
Many thanks

Hetty x x:nerves1


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## Flashy (Jul 24, 2009)

Hey Hetty, it's Sky-O here, I'm glad you found your way over 

I think this may get moved to the Rabbitry forum, so if at any point you can't find it, it's probably there.

How is Angel acting? Is she eating? Drinking? Pooing and weeing since? My concern with the blood is that something has gone awry in her kindling because normally rabbits are pretty tidy and will tidy up after.

how is she acting with both sets of kits?


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## *Spider* (Jul 24, 2009)

There were so many forums I had no idea where to put it!
She is okay - seems her normal self. Babies are acting okay. 
I am concerned about the blood too though - there is like a blob of umbilical cord or something and a pool of blood. 
Will take a few pictures - do I use the


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## Saudade (Jul 24, 2009)

just copy the direct link code and then click the button wiht the three circles (above where you're writing) and you can put it in there.

I would definitely remove the older ones as they will beat the younger ones to the nipples for food. I'm really tentative about replying to this though as this is way out of my league. I will get someone else to come and reply ASAP.


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## Flashy (Jul 24, 2009)

No worries, it's easy to move if the mods deem it appropriate to move it  Most kit related stuff gets moved because even established members struggle to know where to post these things let alone someone arriving in a panic about their buns.

Yup, the code is the one to use :)

It may be a placenta and she hasn't eaten it for some reason, such as maybe being disturbed.

Are the kits together? did she make a nest?

Keep your eyes open for any signs of aggression to the older ones because that is a possibility, a very real risk, actually.


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## *Spider* (Jul 24, 2009)

Okay - will remove the older ones - Kris (rescue told me to do this - but am getting a bit of conflicting advice - think it's better to be safe than sorry)
Will take pictures now.


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## Saudade (Jul 24, 2009)

Trying to get the wheels moving on this! PM is being sent to one of the more knowledgeable members about this as we speak. Hopefully we can get you some information ASAP!

P.S. Welcome to the forum!


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## Flashy (Jul 24, 2009)

Keep them near her in case someone who is a knowledgable breeder has different advice.


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## BlueGiants (Jul 24, 2009)

I agree you should get advice from the breeders on the forum. I've moved it to the Rabbitry so more people (with experience breeding) will see it.

Wean the older litter. They should be on solid food and will have to fend for themselves. Put them in a seperate cage. Give them lots of hay to eat and an area to "nest" in. They do not need a nest box.

Take Momma out of the cage to get some exercise or put her in her outdoor cage for a few minutes....and clean up the cage. The blood and mess will attract flies, not good for her or the new babies. Check the nest, make sure there are no dead babies in there. Save some of her fur if it's clean and leave it around the babies.


Edited to add: She may not be done yet and may have more over the next day or so. Keep an eye on her and the babies. Check them tonight and again in the morning and see if they look like they are getting fed (Belly should look swollen like they swallowed a ping pong ball!)


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## Flashy (Jul 24, 2009)

thanks for coming Cathy  It's always reassuring when you reply to a thread like this.

It's good to know that Hetty will get some decent advice (how bad would it have been if I had bought her here and she didn't).

Hetty, Cathy is one of our most knowledgable and trusted breeders. She knows what she is talking about


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## *Spider* (Jul 24, 2009)

Have removed the four elder bunnies. They seem a little lost and it's so sad. Have taken pictures of blood etc. 
Have heard if sometimes you disturb the babies Mum will kill them.
The hutch is really messy (the babies poo everywhere! - so excuse the mess)
UPLOADING PICS....


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## Flashy (Jul 24, 2009)

That's a myth Hetty, so try not to worry about that. If you stroke mum before and after then you should be ok. If she is a particularly stressy bun you can put a dab of vanilla above her nose so she smells that and not your smell.


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## BlueGiants (Jul 24, 2009)

Clean up what you can and if necessary, use a 10% bleach and water mix to clean the floor up. But you will have to rinse it well and let it dry before you put them back in.

Are the babies in a nest box? I think that you should pick up the kits and put them in a box, (shoe box is fine). It just has to be big enough to let her in and room to turn around, sides low enough for her to hop in and out, but not low enough to let the babies crawl out. The nest box should be placed in the same spot that she kindled the babies. The box will keep the babies together and warm (especially since they may only be 2) and that way, no one crawls off and misses a meal. 


Edited for spelling... duh!


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## *Spider* (Jul 24, 2009)

Thanks - so glad it's a myth!! Will find an appropriate box to put them in. The hutch is so dirty - you wouldn't beleive I clean them out everyday!
Pics still uploading


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jul 24, 2009)

Hi Spider,

Did you mention yet how many kits were in the first litter and what breed this might be? Are the 4 week old kits eating on their own yet?

Without that information, here is my suggestion (but it might change with that info):

I would separate the litters into two nestboxes. If you don't have official nestboxes, a small plastic Rubbermaid storage box (without lid), or even a shoebox would work fine.

I'd suggest putting the nestbox of older babies in with her during the day, and the box of newer babies in with her overnight. Most rabbits do two feedings per day, so this way, she will continue to feed all of them.

When the nestbox is NOT in with her, make sure you keep it in a larger storage container. As I'm sure you know, they can start jumpng out of the box pretty young!

----------------

If the kits are eating ok, slowly decrease their time with her daily. By 5 weeks, they should be weaned. I know it's young, but if they're doing ok on their own, they should be ok and it will be better for the new litter too.

If the doe is in good health and condition, she should be able to raise both litters to weaning. I'd wean the second litter young too, around 5 weeks, since the doe is working overtime.

Hopefully this helps!


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## BlueGiants (Jul 24, 2009)

I agree, that would work as long as there aren't too many inthe first litter. Switching thebabies would have to be done very early in the morning and at dusk, before she does her night feeding. It would help the older litter for an additional week. You can gradually reduce the amount of time she spends with the older litter over the next 7 days.

Edited to add: The mothers milk has probably switched to a heavy colostrum milk, better suited for the new litter. Shouldn't bother the older litter, but keep an eye on them and make sure they are defecating normally.


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## *Spider* (Jul 24, 2009)

I have said - there are 4 4 week old babies.
I have a youtube channel of them when they were in my room in a small cage... http://www.youtube.com/user/KingHetty
This videos must have been taken nearly a week ago.
I have now cleaned out Mum's hutch. Here are some pictures beforehand:
Angel




Nest












Blood








The babies in their new hutch scoffing their pellets!




I gave Angel some fresh hay and she is eating that pleasantly. Will take a picture of the nest box - see if you guys think it's okay.
Thanks


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## *Spider* (Jul 24, 2009)

DOUBLE POST - Just a note though They are on unlimited pellets and the babies get inside the bowl and poo in it!!


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## BlueGiants (Jul 24, 2009)

OK, that is a normal amount of blood. She did good. The lump in the middle is a placenta. She made a nice nest for the new babies! Good mommy!

If you set the new kits up in a nest box, I'd remove them during the day and pop the older litter back in for a few hours. They are old enough that they will nurse off of her when ever they want. Give them 3-4 hours with her and take them out... put the nestbox in andthat gives her a few hours to rest, before she has to nurse the new litter.


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## BlueGiants (Jul 24, 2009)

You may want to look into a raised feeding dish that they can't sit in. They will poop and pee in the dish if allowed to. Or don't put that much food in the dish, refill frequently rather that leaving it sit. Silly babies!


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## *Spider* (Jul 24, 2009)

I have cleaned her up and she has just been for a poo and there is a little more blood.


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## BlueGiants (Jul 24, 2009)

She may not be done kindling (delivering) yet. Give her time and for now, keep the older litter away from her. She may get defensive and we don't want them to get scratched or bitten.


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## *Spider* (Jul 24, 2009)

She has actually bitten one of the elder bun's genitals. 
This was about a week ago and he was on a course of Baytril. He has just come off of it.


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## Flashy (Jul 24, 2009)

I wonder if that's why she did it, she probably knew what was coming. Poor Angel, poor babies and poor you!

How are you doing? bit calmer?

You're doing all the right things


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## BlueGiants (Jul 24, 2009)

She probably knew she was pregnant and that's her way of chasing the older litter off. She may not be willing to nurse them any longer. Knowing that she's bitten one of them, I would not leave her alone with them.


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## *Spider* (Jul 24, 2009)

I am a lot better thanks - have mopped up the blood again.
Have just laid some carpet in my own bunnies' enclosure so that gave me a chance to calm down!
I just feel so sorry for the older kits - they seem fine though.
Am just uploading some pictures to show you what I have done for a nesting box. How should I dress it?
PICTURES UPLOADING...


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## BlueGiants (Jul 24, 2009)

Put down a 2" layer of shavings if you have it. Pile in some soft hay and make a deep hole in the middle, all the way to the back, with your fist. Pick up all the fur and put some down at the back of the hole. Put the babies on the fur and put the remaining fur on top of them. Then put the nestbox in the corner where she delivered them.


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## Flashy (Jul 24, 2009)

At least your older kits all have each other and there are a group of them to huddel together  Better than a single lonely older kit.

I'm glad you're calmer, I bet that was a real shock and adrenaline pumper!

I would put something like shavings at the bottom (to absorb any urine), then some fresh hay and make a hole in the middle of the hay and transfer her nest (complete with kits, hay and fur-although not all in one handful ) into the hole in the middle.


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## Flashy (Jul 24, 2009)

Cathy beat me to it, but at least we mostly agreed


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## BlueGiants (Jul 24, 2009)

Great minds think alike dear! :biggrin2:


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## *Spider* (Jul 24, 2009)

I don't have any shavings - I have some megazorb?


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## Sweetie (Jul 24, 2009)

*BlueGiants wrote: *


> Clean up what you can and if necessary, use a 10% bleach and water mix to clean the floor up. But you will have to rinse it well and let it dry before you put them back in.
> 
> Are the babies in a nest box? I think that you should pick up the kits and put them in a box, (shoe box is fine). It just has to be big enough to let her in and room to turn around, sides low enough for her to hop in and out, but not low enough to let the babies crawl out. The nest box should be placed in the same spot that she kindled the babies. The box will keep the babies together and warm (especially since they may only be 2) and that way, no one crawls off and misses a meal.
> 
> ...


Spider can use 1 part bleach to 10 parts water to clean up with. Let it dry for about an hour or so before putting the rabbits back in.


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## BlueGiants (Jul 24, 2009)

**Spider* wrote: *


> I don't have any shavings - I have some megazorb?


I'm not familiar with megazorb... as long as it doesn't contain any perfumes, chemicals or absorbantclay particles, it should be OK... I'd defer to Flashy if she is familiar with the stuff.


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## Flashy (Jul 24, 2009)

Idon't know. I've never used it.

I googled and it brought this up. http://www.farmway.co.uk/equine-2/tack-room-stable-24/stable-equipment-40/northern-driers-megazorb-animal-1788.htm

Sounds like it should be ok?

If you want/need me to I'm able toget and bringyou some shavings if you want/need some(like if Megazorb is not ok)and can't get some yourself, but the earliest I could come would be tomorrow evening.


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## *Spider* (Jul 24, 2009)

My horses are on shavings so if megazorb is no good then I can obtain some. 
Here is the description from Flashy's post:

Megazorb Bedding is a horse and general animal bedding made from virgin wood pulp. It is ultra absorbent, 10 x more absorbent than straw and 4 x more absorbent than shavings. Being dried at 500ÂºC Megazorb is dust-free and sterile as mould, spores and bacteria are destroyed. Megazorb absorbs odours, its biodegradable therefore environmentally friendly. Megazorb bedding is economical as once the bed is down there is little upkeep and is ideal for rubber matting. Megazorb comes in an 85 litre bag.


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## BlueGiants (Jul 24, 2009)

According to the description, I wouldn't hesitate using it... you need something to absorb urine... the babies don't care where they go!


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## Sweetie (Jul 24, 2009)

You could try it but keep an eye on your bunnies.


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## BlueGiants (Jul 24, 2009)

The fact that it is dried at 500 degrees and goes through a two stage process to remove dust is a good thing. As long as it doesn't have a strong smell like cedar or other aromatic woods...


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## *Spider* (Jul 24, 2009)

I have used it with my own personal rabbits in their encloure (12ft x 6ft dog kennel aviary type thing) an it is very good but stopped as it was too big of a space and took forever to clean so stil have half a bag.


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## *Spider* (Jul 24, 2009)

Their new nest.
I hope this is okay - I haven't dressed it properly yet...


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jul 24, 2009)

Just another note- 4 weeks is not too young to do an emergency weaning, if the mother is getting defensive. In fact, I might suggest it. Just provide them with LOTS of unlimited hay (preferably alfalfa)and a limited amount of pellets- whatever they can clean up within an hour or so. Rolled oats are also excellent for young babies.


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## BlueGiants (Jul 24, 2009)

That looks really good! Make sure they stay covered by the fur for now. The nest should be a constant 90 F (32.2 C), and with only two babies, they have to be kept together at least for the first week or so.


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## *Spider* (Jul 24, 2009)

Have re-done their nest


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## *Spider* (Jul 24, 2009)

Can I handle them?


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## BlueGiants (Jul 24, 2009)

As long as the mom doesn't appear too stressed. You can give her a bit of a treat to distract her. It's an old wives tale that they will reject their babies if you touch them... A mothers instinct to care for her babies is stronger than any smell!

If you are worried, rub the tiniest drop of vanilla on her forehead and a smudge on each baby. She won't know the difference.


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## *Spider* (Jul 24, 2009)

She is quite a timid wee thing - what ae obvious signs for stress?


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## BlueGiants (Jul 24, 2009)

If she jumps in and out of the box looking for them... heavy breathing... running in circles... or if she just looks miserable when you hold the babies. Most mums won't care. You can lift out the whole nestbox and put it back when your done looking at them. Keep it to a few minutes. If they have been fed, they will pee on you!


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## BlueGiants (Jul 24, 2009)

Soooo...???? How do they look? Pretty little wee babes!!!! I'll bet one is going to be white like his momma!


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## *Spider* (Jul 24, 2009)

Can you not see the pictures?  There is one light and one dark. It has been a constant storm all dayso Kris and I (rescuer) are going to call them Thunder and Lightning!:biggrin2:


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## BlueGiants (Jul 24, 2009)

Yup, I can see the photos... but they can change as they mature. And not knowing the color of the dad leaves a little in question. But I love the names you've given them! Sweet! (Of course, now you are going to have to give us weekly photo's as they grow! Start a blog for them!)


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## *Spider* (Jul 24, 2009)

Of course! Their father is a strange chinchilla.
Let me show you...
http://www.starlightsrabbitrescue.co.uk/animalsforadoption.htm
Scroll down to: "Thorn" - and that's their father. You can see the gradual change of colour in his lower body - almost to butter colour!!
Angel and her 4 babies are on there - not a great picture of Angel - that was when she first came in and was petrified.
I am not too keen on REWs but Angel and Gabriel are gorgeous


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## Flashy (Jul 24, 2009)

Polly would be well placed to identify the colours of all of them (she breeds chins so comes across things like ghost chins, squirrels, etc).

You're doing a great job  I can't wait to see pictures of this crew as they grow. you'd better not forget about us now your birthing crisis has passed


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## tonyshuman (Jul 24, 2009)

What adorable pics of the babies! I don't think they liked being in that dollhouse much themselves, though. Best of luck!


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## *Spider* (Jul 24, 2009)

If for one second I got the impression that they disliked beingin the dolls house I would have not put them in there.
They loved climbing all of the little beds and exploring...

So tell me. When I found the babies this morning they were under a thick layer of fur - how does Mummy get all through that to feed and how will she find the babies now te nest has changed slightly?


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## BlueGiants (Jul 24, 2009)

She will hop in the box and push aside the fur. They will smell her and start crawling towards her... believe me, they find her with no problems! They won't miss a meal!


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## *Spider* (Jul 24, 2009)

Oh okay! My Mum is really worried that she can't get in the box and they are too far down in the nest?


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## Flashy (Jul 24, 2009)

She will be able to get in the box, especially as you cut one side lower 

The babies have an instinct to like corkscrew themselves up and corkscrew themselves down as and when its appropriate.


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## *Spider* (Jul 24, 2009)

Oh okay thanks! Puttng my mind at rest. 
The nest is quite deep and all the babies are at the bottom (they have wriggled themselves down there - not quite down to the megazorb though) and I uncovered them and picked them up just to check their bellies and it was sooo warm so am assuming that it is nice and warm enough for them!

Another question (sorry) how does Mum give birth to them? All the blood was on one side of the hutch and the babies were in a corner in the other side. Did she transport them? Give birth in the nest? (etc. - it's just so fascinating!)


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## Flashy (Jul 24, 2009)

No, she doesn't transport them. she had them wherever you found them.

the blood maybe means she knew she was finished with the babies and so went to do the placentas elsewhere possibly. Unfortunately she is a bit of an expert.


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## Pet_Bunny (Jul 24, 2009)

How is Angel now? I don't know too much about births, but is she finished with two kits from this morning, or is she having more? Just thinking because she had 4 the first time.


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## Flashy (Jul 25, 2009)

How are they today? Has mum fed them?


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## BlueGiants (Jul 25, 2009)

:yeahthat:


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## *Spider* (Jul 25, 2009)

Hey guys! Am back!
Angel has fed the babies and both times I have checked on them they have had fat ping pong ball bellies!
I have been up to the rescue and they have given me Lactol to feed the older babies. What ratio should I use?


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## Flashy (Jul 25, 2009)

I have no knowledge of Lactol at all but I'm really glad mum is doing a good job  You'll need to gradually increase her food until its unlimited and you can also mix some regular oats in with the pellets too (not quick or instant), but gradually increase those as you would when introducing any new food).


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## *Spider* (Jul 25, 2009)

Mum is on unlimited pellets already - she has been for a long time. Why should I add the oats?
Lactol is a sort of milk substitute for the older babies.


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## BlueGiants (Jul 25, 2009)

You can add the oats to her pellets at 2-3 tablespoons a day. It's good for her digestion, adds a little extra carbohydrates and helps her increase her milk.

Since the babies are already 4 weeks old, I'd mix up the Lactol according to the directions and put it in a shallow bowl for them to drink from. Take away their water for a few hours each day to encourage them to drink the formula.


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## *Spider* (Jul 26, 2009)

Have been advised to used goats milk at a ratio of 3:1 with cooled boiled water - and just to add a finger nail size of Lactol.

How much milk shall I use (how many mls?)


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## BlueGiants (Jul 26, 2009)

If the babies were still with momma, she would probably only be nursing them once a day. Most likely in the evening. If you want to mix it and either bottle or syringe feed them, they should be content with 10-12 cc's (give or take a little... each baby is different.). If you want to see if they will accept a bowl of formula, mix up 40-50 cc's and offer it to them in place of water.


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## *Spider* (Jul 26, 2009)

Okay - just need to convert cc to ml. Thanks.


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## BlueGiants (Jul 26, 2009)

1 cc = 1 ml


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## *Spider* (Jul 26, 2009)

Thankyou. Well I put it in a bowl and they didn't even touch it.Syringed 0.4 in each of them and they seemed to like it but yet still wouldn't touch it.
I have put 80ml in a water bottle and diluted it down by filling it up with more water to about 7/8ths full.
Does this sound okay? How long shall I leave it until it needds to be replaced? They have an extra water bottle with water in.


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## BlueGiants (Jul 26, 2009)

If you want them to drink the formula, you can not offer them water at the same time. I don't know how long the goats milk will keep without spoiling in the bottle. If they won't take it willingly, try syringe feeding them once a day, just for the nutrition. You really only need to do it for one week. At 5 weeks, they can be safely weaned to solid food.


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## *Spider* (Jul 26, 2009)

Okay will take their water down and see if they drink some by tomorrow


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## tonyshuman (Jul 26, 2009)

I don't have experience with this, but I know the member who does wildlife rehab really prefers a puppy milk replacer, called esbilac powder. He says goats milk is not right to use. He has been too busy to be online lately.


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## *Spider* (Jul 27, 2009)

They are taking to the formula well. Thanks for all advice.


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