# Does having seizures and sudden death



## Inle_Rabbitry

Two of our mini rex does just suddenly died yesterday.

As far as I know, they had been acting perfectly normal and seemed healthy up untill about 5 minutes before their death. They had been eating fine, and displaying normal rabbit behaviour.

Right before their death, they just suddenly acted like they were severely panicked, or in pain, by running frantically in circles and grunting. Their eyes turn dilated, then their bodies would start convulsing for about a minute, and then they just dropped dead, literally. Like I said, they were acting perfectly fine, eating, grooming themselve, playing around, etc.and then it just hit them.

Both of the does were on seperate diets and in seperate cages and were of different ages. Neither of them has ever had any sign of illness or ailments. All of the other rabbits in the rabbitry seem to be doing fine right now. 

I just don't know what to make of this or what could've caused this. Like I said, it just hit them out of now where. The second doe that died, was right in the middle of a grooming session when she just started (for lack of a better term)flipping outand then drop dead.

Does anyone have any advice or experience in this? I've searched through the internet, but have yet to find any proper diagnosis.


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## tonyshuman

Is there a chance of poisoning? Were their cages near each other? It's possible that all of them were exposed to some poison but only these two were susceptible to it at the dose they were exposed to. For instance, ivermectin causes really bad reactions in a small subset of rabbits, and doesn't do anything to others (except kill parasites). Maybe these two were exposed to more of a certain compound, like it was spilled right by their cages (if their cages are near each other), or they could have been more sensitive to it than the others.

I wonder if maybe an air-based compound got in there and landed on their fur and these two were grooming (like you said the second was) and licked it off their coats?

Were they related? Are they REW, blue EW, "eyeliner" bunnies? Blue eyed bunnies can have seizures congenitally.


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## Inle_Rabbitry

I don't suspect a chance of poisoning as there aren't any chemicals in or near the rabbitry, but as you said, it couldpossibly be something air-based...but I'm not sure what?

And their cages were not near each others. 

I observed the first doe die earlyin themorning during feedings (she hadn't been fed yet), and the second I observed about 5 hrs later when I went to do the usual check of the rabbitry.

They are distantly related. The first doe was an aunt to the second one that passed away.

The frist doe was a castor and the second was a broken castor. Now that you mention the white factor, their behavior resembles that of a REW buck that I had many years ago who also exhibited the same symptoms, but he didn't die. Hewould just have minor attacks. I do know that this is something that can be common in white rabbits, but like mentioned above, these does were not white, and they ended up dying after one attack.

With that in respect, could it possbily be a neurological cause?


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## jamesedwardwaller

*Inle_Rabbitry wrote: *


> I don't suspect a chance of poisoning as there aren't any chemicals in or near the rabbitry, but as you said, it couldpossibly be something air-based...but I'm not sure what?
> 
> And their cages were not near each others.
> 
> I observed the first doe die earlyin themorning during feedings (she hadn't been fed yet), and the second I observed about 5 hrs later when I went to do the usual check of the rabbitry.
> 
> They are distantly related. The first doe was an aunt to the second one that passed away.
> 
> The frist doe was a castor and the second was a broken castor. Now that you mention the white factor, their behavior resembles that of a REW buck that I had many years ago who also exhibited the same symptoms, but he didn't die. Hewould just have minor attacks. I do know that this is something that can be common in white rabbits, but like mentioned above, these does were not white, and they ended up dying after one attack.
> 
> With that in respect, could it possbily be a neurological cause?


my condolences at this time,,/.barring long term/noticeable illness,,i have to think of insecticide,poison.-water or food,,massive bees or insect bites./.even being prey animals and not showing illness/pain,,we generally know when they are different,,not eating,drinking,pooping,etc..//.you can have an autopsy,,or just do your best csi-miami,,-which is what i do,...sincerely james waller


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## l.lai

im sorry for your loss


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## pamnock

Had any medications recently been used on the rabbits?

An external factor would seem more likely since the incidents were so close together. 

I would do a necropsy to look for abnormalities.

With the limited info, it's very difficult to venture a guess and I'm not really clear on the details. In your first post, I got the impression that the does died within minutes of each other (possibly "cage fright" - panic/shock). In a later post, I get the impression that you didn't actually see the second rabbit die, but found it dead about 5 hours later.

What were the ages of the does?


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## Inle_Rabbitry

They were not on any medications.

I did observe both does on both incidents. I apologize for any misunderstandings on that part.

Because I did observe both of them dying, I did originally think that it was from a shock factor, from me perhaps startling them while being in the rabbitry. But I just don't see how that could happen, as nothing unusual was going on i.e. no loud noises or frantic movements from me or any other potential contributing factors.

The first doe was about 2 1/2 years old, while the second one was 11 months old.


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## tonyshuman

Any dogs, raccoons, cats, other predators around? Even the smell of them?


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## pamnock

A necropsy could might help solve the mystery. Perhaps heart defects? However, it is unusual that the incidences happened so close together.

I have read references of sudden death in wild rabbits under the same type of odd circumstances. (Leaping into the air - sudden death.)

Also attended a genetics presentation years ago, where the speaker mentioned the "2 year death phenom" of inbred rabbits. Around the age of two years is most common for sudden death due to heart failure.

This is all just speculation based on the limited info available.


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## Pipp

How were the other rabbits acting? Did they seem spooked? Stress does things to their bodies, and earlier bout of stress could have set them off, and then the further shock of a human visit pushed that over the line. 

James had a good point about insect bites. Is there anyway their cages could have been visited by insects like spiders, or snakes, rats or anything like that? 

I don't think the timing and mode was incidental. 

So sorry for your loss. (I love castor mini-rexes). 


sas :sad:


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## Inle_Rabbitry

I am sorry that I don't have much info available. I'm as perplexed as anyone else is concerningthis.

As I mentioned, both does were perfectly healthy (to the best of my knowledge) and were acting perfectly normal up untill a few minutes before death.

We do have animals out in the country here such as raccoons, coyotes, and fox, but have never had a problem with them disturbing the rabbitry as it's well confined. Right now, here in Colorado, it's still very cold, so insect and snake bites wouldn't seem a likely cause.

Personally, I think I'll have to agree with Pam on this, in that it could either be some form of heart condition or some form of disease that onlywild rabbits have been documented to have, and perhaps some how, this disease made it's way into my rabbitry. We do have an over abundance of cottontails around here.

The only thing I can remotely think of that could've potentially caused this isToxoplasmosis, though the symptoms don't exactly add up. I do know that it's spread by cat feces, and we do have cats, and they are allowed into the rabbitry when we are there as well, but they certainly don't deficate there. And we are extremely consitent with weekly cleaning and sanitation.

The only thing that gets me, is the fact that both of the does passed on the same day.

Again, all of the other rabbitsin the rabbitry seem to be doing fine as usual.

Right now, I am just completely puzzled. Again, if there is any other info I can provide, please let me know. I just don't see any other potentially contributing factors at this point that would suggest a cause.

I'm just very concerned, that whatever it is, will strike the other rabbits at any random point, just as it did with the two does.


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## Flashy

Do you have VHD over there? That's roughly a 3 day incubation period and I would expect that others would have 'succumbed' already to it if it was, but one worth thinking about possibly?


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## Inle_Rabbitry

Wow, I didn't even consider that....

I know the disease is extremely rare in the U.S. but it is possible...and the symptoms are unusually alike...

The rest of the rabbits will have to be in quarantine for the next few days and have a close eye upon them.

This would be terrible if they had VHD  and it's scary to not know how they acquired it...

And what's worse, is that there's no cure...


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## Flashy

I think generally its hard to tell how common it is because often rabbits just die, and not many people get necropsys done or ask questions like you have, they just see their rabbit has died and grieve for it, so it can be more common than people realise (if that makes sense).

I would expect you would probably know if you had it by now, but keeping them in quarantine is smart. The spores that transmit it can live for about 8 months or so, so it could have been brought in on shoes if you have somehow walked somewhere where it has been prevalent. That is also key for quarantine because it has to be super strict quarantine.

Hope though this isn't something that would be relevant and is just a precautionary measure.


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## tonyshuman

I thought that VHD had symptoms of excessive bleeding?

After reading this, the symptoms may fit, and it has appeared once in a while in the US.

http://www.rabbit.org/care/vhd.html

If you are seriously considering it as a possible explanation, I would contact the nearest vet school and/or state department of agriculture. There's also a "state vet" in most states that could help you, and maybe they would like samples to check for it.


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## Flashy

No, sometimes you get bleeding out of the mouth or anus, but often the rabbit can show nothing at all. Completely agree with you on the necropsy


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## Inle_Rabbitry

Well, unfortunately, VHD sounds like the probable cause right now.

A necropsy as been arranged to determine the actual cause. So for the time being, all we can truely do is wait and continue to take precautionary measures.

I'll be sure to update this post as soon as new information becomes available regarding this issue. For now, we'll be concentrating on the well being of our current stock.

I want to thank everyone for all of their help as it is greatly appreciated!


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## AngelnSnuffy

I want to say how sorry I am for your loss. I love mini rexes too, especially of that color, I had a broken black little girl who I lost almost 3 years ago now...doesn't seem that long ago...:cry4:

At least w/ the necropsies, we can know what happened.

Let us know.:hug2:


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## pamnock

VHD is extraordinarily rare here and generally involves exposure from foreign stock. When a VHD outbreak occurs in the US, all animals in the herd as well as any possibly exposed stock must be slaughtered.

Rabbits that have contracted VHD are usually lethargic rather than exhibiting the symptoms described in this case.

I'm glad that a necropsy has been scheduled to help solve the mystery.


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## tonyshuman

I'm glad you're getting a necropsy done. I really hope that wasn't the cause, although if it isn't, it's going to be hard to figure out what did cause it.


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## tonyshuman

Hi, any news? You may have seen this post by Peg in the Rabbitry about an outbreak of VHD in Minnesota recently:
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=57289&forum_id=8


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## Inle_Rabbitry

Nope, we haven't gotten any news yet.  After reading that link, I'm very much hoping that it isn't VHD, because it would just tear me apart to have to euthanize the rest of my herd. Thankfully, all of our other rabbits are doing very well right now. So if it turns out not beingVHD, that would be the good news, the bad news is trying to find out what else could've caused it:?


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## OakRidgeRabbits

Have these two does been to a show together recently?


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## Inle_Rabbitry

No, in fact neither of them have ever been to a show. The older one has always been a brood doe (her earswere too big to be of show quality) and the younger one I was waiting untill she was just a little older to get to the show.


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## jujub793

could it be toxoplasmosis?


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## Inle_Rabbitry

That is what I initially thought, but I don't see how our rabbits could have gotten it. We are extremely consistent with disinfecting our rabbitry and we don't allow any of our other animals (the dogs and cats) in there unless we are present to keep an eye on them.

Are rabbits are allowed supervised time outside every day in some runs that we've built, and they're cleaned out weekly as well.


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## Inle_Rabbitry

Well, results came it. 

Turns out, that is was Toxoplasmosis after all.

We spoke with our vet about how it could've possibly gotten to the rabbits. And after some contemplations, we concluded that the most plossible way was that a stray cat (or some other animal)carrying the parasite had gotten into the rabbit's run outside and deficated there (unoticed to our eyes)where the does must have ingested it some how.


We're going to see if we can get the rest of our herd tested for it. For the time being, they all seem to be doing fine.

Does anyone know if there is a treatment for Toxoplasmosis? I haven't found or heard of any


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## tonyshuman

Well, I am glad it wasn't VHD. I did find this reference to treating toxoplasmosis in rabbits with pyrimethamine, but I would be more likely to think fenbendazole or ponazuril might be other options.
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Neurology/cuniculi/pyrimethamine.htm

You may want to check the references at the bottom of the page to read the original study of using that drug to treat toxoplasmosis.


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## tonyshuman

Mkay, I found this article that says pyrimethamine doesn't treat it, but the article is very old (1956).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1509661/pdf/bripharmchem00142-0058.pdf


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## jujub793

i think that is what my rabbit died from also but i will never know for sure since i couldn't afford to pay for the testing. but i think she came with it from the breeder. i saw cats in her barn where the rabbitry was and they were obviously outdoor barn cats...


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## pamnock

Treatment info:

http://wildlife1.wildlifeinformation.org/S/00dis/Parasitic/Toxoplasmosis.htm


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## tonyshuman

It is sad that this happened, but it will certainly stay in my mind that seizures and suddenly dying could be toxoplasmosis, especially if cats are around. It's a good thing to keep in mind for the future.


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## Inle_Rabbitry

I want to thank everyone for all of their concerns and advice. All of the information provided has opened the door for the possibility of treatment if in the case the rest of our rabbits come out positive for this.

I am glad that we figured out what it was, and thankfully it wasn't VHD.

Thanks again, everyone!


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## Oreo330

All three of my rabbits died of sudden seizures with no sighn of illness . I think the same thing might have happened to you. The only sighn I had noticed with my rabbits was that they all seemed to zone own easily acouple days before there death .


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## mrplodd

This happened to me, but my two does we’re in separate runs from each other Each with a neutered buck with them. I fed them all in the morning and they were fine went out and my doe was having a fit and died, the next morning the exact same thing happened with my other doe but before I fed them and both bucks were fine, then two days later my next door neighbours doe had a fit and died. I have been searching to see what it could be as I can’t afford to get a post-mortem, but now reading this and knowing my neighbour has 4 cats that I do see quite a lot in my garden I think this could be the cause, but not sure why it would just harm the does and not the bucks.


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## Tar0

Do you feed the rabbit hay from local farms? some hay from local farms could have come in contact with other animals and could be carrying some sort of contaminant. I'm sorry this happened to your rabbit. [emoji22]


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## Cookiemonster

So sorry about your losses... hopefully all goes well in the future... my bun went paralyzed so sudden and it was traumatizing on her and myself..


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