# Symptoms of Cecal Dysbiosis?



## Jenk (May 3, 2010)

This is a "just-in-case" type of question; I don't know that any of my rabbits is dealing with cecal dysbiosis. Still, one of our girl's is currently onBaytril (for a bladder issue), and our male tends to leave "cecal" stains on the floor. (I've never found uneaten cecals in his living area/litter box, nor have I found any stuck to his hindquarters.)

I'm just wondering what symptoms, besides mushy or liquid-form cecals, commonly indicatececal dysbiosis?



Thank you,

Jenk


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## pamnock (May 3, 2010)

http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/poop.html


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## Jenk (May 3, 2010)

*pamnock wrote: *


> http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/poop.html



I've already read this article, which only mentions mushy, malformed, and/or liquid-formed cecals. It doesn't seem to get more specific than that. Then again, maybe that is the _only_ symptom of cecal dysbiosis.

More than anything, I'm wondering if a rabbit suffering from cecal dysbiosis experiences mushy/liquid cecals on a _regular_ (rather than an infrequent) basis? That is, asthe gut-floraimbalance continues/increases unchecked, should the cecal-related issues be expected to increase in frequency?

Our "cow-pile-syndrome" bun passes liquid stools at times, but I think it's cecals;this symptom typically occurs if I feed her 2 tsp. of pellets for a period of time (or after those times that I increasedher rationto 2.5 tsp.). Since it's not a constant issue, though,I don't suspect cecal dysbiosis. (She has various digestive woes.)

Our male, however, seems to produce "cecal stains" on his pen floor whenever I increase his pellet content. The problem, though, is that he's 8.5 lbs. and only gets 5 Tbsp./day, which isn't a ton. If Idecrease his amountto 4 Tbsp./day, I fear that he'll lose weight. And he has trouble digesting a large amount of greens, so I feed him a "treat-sized" amount of them. (He was suffering too many gas bouts for my liking--and seemingly from the greens.)

This morning, I noticed some odd-shaped (mostly oblong-shaped) fecals in his box. He's not passing diarrhea (liquid fecals), but the cecal stains on his floor concern me.


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## tonyshuman (May 3, 2010)

When I see cecal stains on the floor, they are usually just cecals that somebody mooshed by stepping on them. Do you think they're liquid as they come out, or being smooshed?


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## Jenk (May 3, 2010)

*tonyshuman wrote: *


> When I see cecal stains on the floor, they are usually just cecals that somebody mooshed by stepping on them. Do you think they're liquid as they come out, or being smooshed?




I've never seen bona-fide liquid cecal/fecal material in his litter box or on his pen floor. There's just a smeared stain here and there that could indicate mushy cecals. (I realize thatcecals aren't exactly firm; for all I know, it could be the way that my guy contorts himself to consume his cecals thatcauses them to come into contact with--and smear on--the floor.)

All I know is that I had him on a 4-Tbsp. pellet ration before deciding to decrease his greens. After I decreased his greens ration, I slowly increased his pellet ration to 5 Tbsp., which he's been eating for over a month now. I'm wondering if the increased pellet ration is the issue, or if he's just managing to somehow smear his cecals on the floor as he consumes them.


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## pamnock (May 4, 2010)

There may beany number ofpossible general symptoms/signs of cecal dysbiosis depending on factors and causes of the cecal dysbiosis. Cecal dysbiosis in itself can be a secondary sign of another illness.


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## Jenk (May 4, 2010)

This morning, I noticed some dried cecal/fecal (most likely cecal) material stuck to the underside of my guy's tail. And just moments ago, I discovered more cecal stains (actual streaks) on his pen floor. 

Again, I've never found a puddle of diarrhea in his pen, nor have I found uneaten cecals anywhere.But I don't think that dried cecal material stuck to his tail and streaked on the floor is normal, either.

My quandry is that if I reduce his daily pellet ration (from 5 Tbsp. to 4 Tbsp.), I don't think he'll be getting enough nutrients in his diet and may lose weight.(He's 8.5 lbs.)

Then again, streaked cecal material doesn't seem like a good thing, either.


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## tonyshuman (May 4, 2010)

Is his fluffy on the hind end? My Muffin has a harder time keeping her hind end clean because of her long lop fur. I know Pink's a Cali, but maybe he's molting and it's just to fuzzy down there?


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## Jenk (May 4, 2010)

*tonyshuman wrote: *


> Is his fluffy on the hind end? My Muffin has a harder time keeping her hind end clean because of her long lop fur. I know Pink's a Cali, but maybe he's molting and it's just to fuzzy down there?




It all depends on how you define _fuzzy_.  He's not "officially" molting, but he always hastufts of loose fur sticking out that easily detach from hisbody when pulled. 

Should I really not be concerned about thin cecal smears on his pen floor? (To clarify: it's not thick, pasty cecal material; rather, it'slike a dried smear of brown fluid.) I've long thought that mushy-ish cecals--or too many of them--is a bad thing. But it seems like everyone here is sayingthat unless he's passing bona-fide (cecal) diarrhea, then it isn't cecal dysbiosis. 

Are there other symptoms common to the disorder that might help me determine if the cecal smears are abnormal for Pink (e.g., definite lethargy, inappetence, etc.)?


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## Pipp (May 4, 2010)

*Jenk wrote: *


> This morning, I noticed some dried cecal/fecal (most likely cecal) material stuck to the underside of my guy's tail. And just moments ago, I discovered more cecal stains (actual streaks) on his pen floor.
> 
> Again, I've never found a puddle of diarrhea in his pen, nor have I found uneaten cecals anywhere.But I don't think that dried cecal material stuck to his tail and streaked on the floor is normal, either.
> 
> ...



Its really very very normal. 

When Pipp (or anybunny else here) has had cecal dysbiosis, the cecals were liquid and the rabbit was lethargic. 

Healthy cecals are sticky, some are runnier than others. Some rabbits have different eating habits and some may not be as pristine. This is the kind of thing where adjustment is unnecessary and less healthy then letting it progress naturally. 

Having one bunny with stickier cecals, others with smaller darker poops, etc, is really natural and shouldn't be even responded to. Humans don't always eat the same things, chew our food the same way or have exactly the same output. 

When my genetically challenged megacolon trio had their large, oddly shaped poops or runny cecals smeared on the floor, it their diet was given a minor tweak to increase fiber -- canned pumpkin, mix up different varieties of hay to increase consumption, etc -- and that was the only 'treatment'. 

They were fine. The girls are still find at their new foster home, and I doubt their diets are even getting that much attention. 

Another point to ponder... onder: Pipp used to be so territorial, and she's never had regulated hours with me. So she'd find herself out of her room during her 'down' time when she was literally all pooped out. But she'd still do her best to eject whatever she could to mark Radar's doorway. The poops could be in any stage of production, she'd still manage to squeeze them out. When she couldn't get even one last poop out, she's start squeezing out the cecals. 

These days, as I've mentioned before, Pipp is a big veggie bunny, she's consuming more digestible / roughage type fiber. She doesn't eat hay, and especially not the indigestible stuff that makes for fluffy poops, so her's will always be small, dark and hard. Sometimes they're misshapen. But this is also a sign of GOOD health with a veggie eater. 

And even my big hay eaters will have big logs and sticky squished cecals, and they are not at all sick either. 

I think people are taking some of the 'healthy poop' emphasis in Dana's articles out of context, and I don't think the article went very deep into the fecal composition with even mildly alternative diets. As a result, we have a generation of only semi-informed rabbit slaves trying to micromanage poop. Been there, done that! I had to learn from experience. 



sas :bunnydance:


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