# Chance is lethargic and urinating on himself



## MyBoyHarper (Mar 28, 2007)

I went to clean Chance's cage tonight and I walked in and found him laying down, soaked in pee. He had pee'd on himself and didn't even bother to move. I noticed yesterday that once he's in the yard, he appears happy, but inside in the last couple days,he's just not acting right. He doesn't get excited when I go to get him out his cage. He usually is busting through the top when I open it,usually hopping out on his own before I can grab him. However in the last two days, he just lays there, waiting for my to grab him and not really caring. Then tonight, with him peeing on himself like that. What does this indicate? Urine looks about the same, his stomach doesn't feel hard (Harper pee'd on himself like this the morning before he had his blockage surgery. He was in too much pain to get up).

Am I looking at yet another vet visit already?? Good grief!


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## naturestee (Mar 28, 2007)

Yes, it's vet time again. It sounds like he is in a lot of pain. Do you have pain meds for him?

ray:


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## binkies (Mar 28, 2007)

Oh no! That is not the best of news! prayers for him...and you!


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## MyBoyHarper (Mar 28, 2007)

*Sigh* My poor man, I'm just praying for the day when he feels better and can stay that way for more than a few days.

Angela, I have no pain meds on hand tonightexcept baby asprin. Is that safe to use with his kidney's being the way they are?


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## AngelnSnuffy (Mar 28, 2007)

Oh Lord Danielle! I am sooooo sorry. Now two sick babies. ray:ray:ray:

Come on Chance and Thumper!:kiss:


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## naturestee (Mar 28, 2007)

Wikipedia says to use caution and check a doctor before using aspirin if the patient has kidney problems. So that's a no go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirin#Contraindications_and_warnings


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## MyBoyHarper (Mar 28, 2007)

*Sigh* Then I am stuck with no pain meds. It's 9pm at night too, so I'm kind of in a bind. We have no ER vets out here, actually we only have one vet period and he's a livestock vet.I'm gonna pray he'll be okay till morning and I'll get him to my vet first thing in the AM.


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## naturestee (Mar 28, 2007)

Can you give him something to keep him warm? A warm towel, or a sock filled with dry rice and warmed in the microwave? It might make him a bit more comfortable.


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## MyBoyHarper (Mar 28, 2007)

Angela, I'll give him both to keep him comfy.He's such a mama's boy, I have a feeling I'll be up most of the night holding him with a warm sock against him.


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## AngelnSnuffy (Mar 28, 2007)

You are a super bun mom! You all will be in thoughts and prayers.ray:

I'm glad they were able to help you w/ advice. Sorry, I just haven't had these issues so I don't know. You sure are learning a lot though.

ray:

Crystal and the buns.


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## lalena2148 (Mar 28, 2007)

Danielle, you are a bunny angel. :bunnyangel:

Hope Chance, Thumper and YOU start feeling better.

Give those boys nose rubs (and Harper too) and snuggles from me, Drizzle, and Latte. We're praying for all of you guys!

ray::brown-bunny:brown-bunny


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## Maureen Las (Mar 29, 2007)

Geez I'm so sorry that Chance is so very sick again...I guess that you have a long night ahead of you.ray::sickbunny:


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## HoneyPot (Mar 29, 2007)

Poor Chance. I'll be thinking of you tonight with Chance and Thumper!!

______
Nadia


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## AngelnSnuffy (Mar 29, 2007)

*:bunnydance:COME ON CHANCE!:bunnydance:*

I for one, Love You!:balloons::group:


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## ahri22 (Mar 29, 2007)

Poor Chance  That darling little boy has had to go through so much!! And he's such a sweetie!!! I'll be thinking of him and praying for him....

:grouphug


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## AngelnSnuffy (Mar 29, 2007)

I'm starting to get really worried, this isn't like MBH.:rollseyes


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## binkies (Mar 29, 2007)

I'm worried too! She isn't on AIM right now either...


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## MyBoyHarper (Mar 29, 2007)

I'm back.

*Puts on flame retardant suit*

I didn't take Chance. I didn't see the need. He's acting a bit better today, but that's not why I didn't take him. When I talked to him, my vet admitted he was clueless and really wasn't sure why I was bringing him back him. That's why we were sent to the exotics vet. Fine.

The exotics vet said looking at the tests, he has no idea why Chance is the way he is, and you can't fix something you don't know what's wrong.I could've brought him into the exotics vet, but they wanted to do another x-ray, blood work, urinalysis, on top of a $40 office visit. So$200 I can get the same answer all over again. I opted not to, for obvious reasons.

So yeah, that's pretty much been the jist of things here today. I've been told by too many vets and people around me on what decision to make with his future. I think I'm going to finally make that decision because I can't see him in pain for much longer and be told there's nothing we can do.I know some may not agree with me, so flame away. 


EDIT: I'm sorry if I come across snippy, I'm just having a very bad day.


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## AngelnSnuffy (Mar 29, 2007)

I, for one, will not flame you. You can't just sit there and watch him in terrible pain and can do nothing about it. I really hope he magically gets better.It's aweful b/c he seems so happy now, but he can't be happy if he's very ill and in pain. I'm sorry MBH. This must be so hard.:hug:

Thanks for the update!


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## binkies (Mar 29, 2007)

I'm sorry! I am not going to flame you either.The vets just don't know and it is the hard part. You know him better than any of us and have used all the available resources to get a diagnosis. Sometimes former abuse and neglect just does too much damage. 

Thank you for the update.


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## MyBoyHarper (Mar 29, 2007)

Thank you guys, all the prayers and good vibes are really appreciated. I haven't made a decision yet. I don't want to feel selfish by making him stay in pain, but I also don't want to rush into a decision and regret it for the rest of my life. So I have a lot of thinking to do. 

Please continue the prayers, they're really needed.


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## AngelnSnuffy (Mar 29, 2007)

Have you gotten any Metacam for pain? If you at least have that on hand, it could help with his episodes.


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## Pipp (Mar 29, 2007)

Metacam can compromise the kidneys, as can any NSAID. It restricts the blood flow. I don't have time to go through the posts, but Chance should be having a daily SubQ infusion, lactated ringers, at home. If that's happening, the pain meds are workable. You also have to be sure he is in pain. If he doesn't have stones or sludge, not sure where the pain is coming from. I'd wait for a better analysis of the underlying problem, but definitely do the daily SubQ. 



sas ray:


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## Haley (Mar 30, 2007)

Poor Chance. I'll be sending lots of prayers your way.


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## ahri22 (Mar 30, 2007)

I am sure there is a very good reason why none of the vets MBH has talked to have wanted to prescribe SubQs for Chance...although from my reading, it would *seem* to be the right thing to do. 

Anyway, I would never flame anyone for deciding to have their pet euthanased if there seemed like no other option. 

Of course, I will be devastated if Chance passes...but I'm sure that MBH will be more devastated than anyone to lose that precious boy!!!

I am keeping Chance in my prayers...that poor little guy has gone through so much, and obviously is the most precious bunny. I hope more than anything that at least one of the vets figures out what is wrong with him!!

If not...then I wouldn't want beautiful Chance to be in pain if there is no solution...

:group:


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## f_j (Mar 30, 2007)

It must be awful seeing him suffer like this...I hope that his condition turns around soon. Poor little guy...and poor you


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## Munchkin (Mar 30, 2007)

Oh you poor thing - what an awful dilema for you! I wouldn't dream of flaming....I'd much rather spend my energy sending hugs, love and prayers to you and your lovely bunny.

I really hope he improves and you stop having such a burden on your shoulders. *hugs*


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## naturestee (Mar 30, 2007)

:hug2: I know you'll make the best decision for him, whatever that might be.


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## MyBoyHarper (Mar 30, 2007)

*Pipp wrote: *


> Chance should be having a daily SubQ infusion, lactated ringers, at home.


I'm not going to do this. 

I've talked to three vets, two of them are rabbit exotic vets, and all three told me specifically to do not give him SubQ fluids, or any type of extra fluid. Not only could it be harmful, it could be deadly.

I asked them again why, and they said the idea of this is great for a rabbit who has urine sludge, or kidney sand, and that's the only problem. The kidney sand is only a secondary problem to something much larger with Chance. He's also in kidney failure.

The vets said with a rabbit already in kidney failure, if you load him up with fluids, his kidneys aregoing to go out. Because it's his kidney's that have to pump all those fluids through to filter them,and it's going to put too much stress and strain on a rabbit already in kidney failure.

They said it's like giving a person in congested heart failure a bunch of extra fluid. It's only going to overload their heart and put them in heart failure.

I've been told this by three vets already, so I am definitely not going to give him extra fluids and risk his kidney's completely going out. :?


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## lalena2148 (Mar 30, 2007)

MBH, did you get a chance to read the info on chronic renal failure I put on Chance's initial sickness thread?
http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=19878&amp;forum_id=1&amp;page=4

It was the day you took Chance to the good vet and I figured out it is chronic renal (kidney failure). 

Treatment options:
http://courses.vetmed.wsu.edu/vm552/urogenital/crf.htm
http://www.marvistavet.com/html/chronic_renal_failure.html
*[size="-1"]TreatmentOptions[/size]* (that site suggests Sub Q for renal failure to flush out the toxins)
http://www.marvistavet.com/html/chronic_renal_failure.html(support site for people who have rabbits w/ CRF. They may have success stories for you to get info).
http://www.petmedicinechest.com/rabbit/kidney.asp(medicine for flushing the kidneys for buns w/ CRF)

And I'm not flaming you. I know you will do what you feel is best for Chance. ray:
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## ec (Mar 30, 2007)

Some more good links re. renal disease and failure:

http://homepage.mac.com/mattocks/morfz/rabrefs.html#kidneyfail

(I know someone has probably posted this link already, but I figured it would be worth a second look.)

I'd also think it would be worthwhile to drop another query on Etherbun.

And this - *rabbit renal failure group on Yahoo*:http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/cfr-rabbits/


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## lalena2148 (Mar 30, 2007)

*ec wrote: *


> And this - *rabbit renal failure group on Yahoo*:http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/cfr-rabbits/


Thanks for that. I was trying to post THAT link for the support group, and I posted the one above it twice. Oops!


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## Pipp (Mar 30, 2007)

*MyBoyHarper wrote: *


> I'm not going to do this.


I wasn't suggesting you do this,as I said, I hadn't read the thread, I've lost track of his treatment. I was saying thatassuming you were doing that, then there was no problem with the Metacam or other pain killers as suggested in this thread, but otherwise, I'dbe questioning the effect ofpain meds on compromised kidneys and proceed with caution. If your doingpain meds, I'm pretty sure you need theSubQ.I'm assuming you're notgiving him pain meds without the vet prescribing them as well. It must be difficult for them all around if they don't know the cause of the problem. 

I didn't comment about this only for Chance, there is a very strong pro-pain management contingent on this board -- and I'm one of the head cheerleaders -- but there is also danger in that, so I think we need reminders that pain meds are not always the best course of action. 

Here's a wish forChance to becomfortable and not compromised. We're all pulling for you little buddy. You're in good hands. 



sasray:and the warren :bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance:


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## ec (Mar 30, 2007)

No problem - I didn't intend to duplicate your post, either.


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## MyBoyHarper (Mar 30, 2007)

Hi guys, thank you for the links, I will definitely look them over. EC, when I posted to Etherbun previously,they also suggested the SubQ fluids.

However, I am going to bypass this information and truly take the vet's advice. I feel most comfortable with that decision. I was told in the beginning to get a second opinion, and I got a second and a THIRD opinion, and all 3 tell me the same thing. And this is after looking at his x-rays, blood test results, urinalysis, and ultrasound results. 

If three vets are all saying the same thing, I believe they truly have their reason. It may be case specific with Chance and what may be work and be okay with most renal failure rabbits, may not be okay for Chance. They seem to know his condition well and still are warning me again the fluids. So I feel most comfortable taking that warning and their advice and holding off on the fluids.


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## ec (Mar 30, 2007)

MBH, I've lost track of what's been going on re. vet consultations, which is one of the reasons I posted the links.

We're all pulling for both you and Chance!


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## Pipp (Mar 30, 2007)

*MyBoyHarper wrote:*


> I was told in the beginning to get a second opinion, and I got a second and a THIRD opinion, and all 3 tell me the same thing. And this is after looking at his x-rays, blood test results, urinalysis,and ultrasound results.


Yeah, I've totally lost track, too. I remember the talk about the first vet apparently prescribing the wrong treatment, I thought somebody after that had put him on the standard treatment, that wasn't the case? So was the first vet's treatmentnotwrong? Or is it still that nobody knows? 

sas


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## MyBoyHarper (Mar 30, 2007)

My vet didn't know what to do, and put Chance on a urine acidfier and a low dose of Baytril. Chance got worse. So my vet took an x-ray, CBC, and a full blood panel. I got the results, and showed them to the rabbit vet the rescue uses. She was a bit stumped,and since my vet wanted us to go to the exotics vet, that's where we went.

He looked over the blood work, x-ray, and did an ultrasound. Chance's potassium is to the ground, his protein is too high, his alkaleinity if off the chart, and his ALT is too high indicating he has liver damage as well.

The ultrasound showed that Chance's left kidney was swollen as well.After all of this, they can't tell us WHY he is the way he is, but all three concluded that the sand was secondary to something larger, but no one knows what. No one can pin-point why his organs are the way they are, why he is so sick, and what has caused his kidney's to be the way they are.

I asked them about SubQ fluids, and got the same response, including a detailed response from the exotics vet that sealed the deal with me not putting Chance on it.

I'm aggrivated and frustrated, because I am turning circles and getting nowhere with what is wrong with him. I don't want to, but I am about ready to just give up. Why keep torturing him with tests, only to watch him get sicker as vet's stand by cluelessly.


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## ec (Mar 30, 2007)

Was Chance ever seen at the LSU clinic? if so, what did they say?

I'm very confused here, like Pipp.


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## MyBoyHarper (Mar 30, 2007)

Not too much to be confused on, I've pretty much covered what's been done to him. There really isn't any answers so far from the vets, so this is pretty much it.

Here's the link to his update thread, this should catch anyone interested up to speed:

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=19878&amp;forum_id=1


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## pla725 (Mar 30, 2007)

Was an E. Cuniculi titer done? I had a mini-lop named Simon who had similar symptoms. His EC titer was through the roof. He protein and kidney values where also through the roof. He had kidney stones in his kidneys and the urtuers. He did develop pneumonia. Unfortunately, he did pass from complications due to EC. 

It sounds like you have done everything possible. Do you what you think is best for your bun. He will give you a sign when it is time.


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## pla725 (Mar 31, 2007)

Just wanted to add that if your bunny does have EC he can still be treated with Panacur depending on how advanced the disease is at this point. If he is still eating and enjoying life go for it.


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## MyBoyHarper (Mar 31, 2007)

pla, I didn't know that about EC. I will definitely talk to the vet Monday about it and see if they'd be willing to test Chance for it. Why not, younever know -- that may be why he's sick!


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## pla725 (Mar 31, 2007)

I had read about EC but most of the info was related to head tilt. It wasn't until I took Sim onto the University of Penn, with my vet's blessing, that I had even considered it. 

Just be aware that many rabbits will test positive for EC but many never exhibit symptoms. Simon starting have urinary incontinence first. It wasn't until the vet at Penn pointed it out to me that I even noticed the neurological signs. I figured Simon wasn't too sure-footed on my kitchen tile. Silly me. He went down hill the week after that visit. It was not a fun week. At least my supervisor and co-workers understood.

I suggest the House Rabbit Society sitehttp://www.rabbit.org or this site for info on EC:http://homepage.mac.com/mattocks/morfz/rabrefs.html.

Good luck.


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## naturestee (Mar 31, 2007)

Doh! I've seen discussions about EC and kidney problems on Etherbun. I can't believe I missed it,and so did everyone else there! Thanks,pla725!

MBH, here's the thread on EC from the Rabbit Health References:
http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=14471&amp;forum_id=10


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## pla725 (Apr 4, 2007)

How is Chance doing?


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