# What killed my Lhoe-Lha?



## Lhucky (Feb 20, 2013)

This Monday, my Lhoe-Lha past away. 1 yr old mommy Dutch with 8 kits born on Jan. 21.

Wed, she became lethargic and refuse to eat her food. we took her to our new vet. he checked her eyes, her tooth, then pulls her back skin like 3 or 4x i guess. I also asked if she had gas inside, he used stetoscope to listen, then said not too much. then, he gave her this very aromatic candy smelling red colored liquid. inject it on her back. when i asked what it was, he said its just an antibiotic. then another shot on her foot that the vet said its a vitamin that would get her to eat again. The vet also gave us this electrolyte, should be mixed in her water, the ratio is 1:1.

we went home. Put her back in her cage along with her 8 babies. she sat at the very far corner. we thought that maybe she just needs time to relax... or gain her strength back. that night, she still refused to eat, we seperate her from her babies. We put her near our bed. she drinks a few gulps of water every now and then but refused to eat anything. even her favorite carrots or kale are untouched. she ate a few leaves of celery had a very bad diarhhea on Thursday. I txted the vet told him what is happening to my bunny and what can we do about it. he just said let her drink electrolyte more and give her pineapple shake.

I was afraid that she'd die from empty stomach, I used KMR to forced feed her. then I noticed that her tummy were swollen. sounds like a lot of gas. My mind is telling me that I've made a grave mistake from taking my bunny to the vet... so.. I made a decision not to go back and see vet again... I used the net for solution.. We forced feed KMR with 40 mg of simethicone that night. massage her tummy. Friday morning, again she did not eat her mashed pellets with oats. we forced another KMR with vitamin B. massage her tummy again. but looked like her tummy is more bloated already.

I asked the vet again what antibiotic did he injects in my bunny. he said he injects no antibiotic. all vitamins. I got sooo confused, scared and mad. Because I read from a website before that a red liquid cherry smelling antibiotics are not for bunnies. although I already cannot find it yet again. I suspect that it was amoxicillin although I am not sure anymore. 

Sat, she runs away from us, it looked like she had more strength then than the previous days. still refused to eat. so we forced feed again the milk and vitamin B and electrolyte. morning and evening. She can't even finish 50 ml of the mixed milk. 

Sunday, the same as Sat. but no poops the whole day

Monday, 7am when we feed her, it looked like she's more responsive when we again forced feed her. boxs me a couple of times. jump away. hoping for the best, we left her alone. 2 pm, she's shivering. the sides of her mouth are turning blue. we took her to the vet again, we have no other choice...

at the vet, they massage her tummy with essential oil. gave her oxygen. did an x-ray. massage more. around 4pm, she passed away.

what went wrong? please advice so that none of my bunnies would suffer the same faith as my Lhoe-Lha...

Thank you very much


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## JBun (Feb 20, 2013)

I'm really sorry about your rabbit. It's always really hard when we lose them.

I know you are wanting to try and prevent this from happening again, so I'll offer a few suggestions. I don't know for sure, but it doesn't sound like this vet knows much about rabbits. If you can, try and find a different vet that has better experience with rabbits, because a vet that doesn't understand rabbits can do the wrong thing and it can end up being harmful to your rabbit. Just cause a vet understands cats and dogs, doesn't mean they know anything about rabbits. You need a vet that knows specifically about rabbits. I don't know how possible this will be to find where you are at. 

I've suggested this in a previous post, but for future rabbit related problems, it might be a good idea to post on here when you are having a problem. There is a vet that sometimes posts on here, as well as a few people that are studying to be vets. Plus there are lots of us rabbit owners that have lots of experience with sick rabbits, so we can offer suggestions on how to help your rabbits and also we can tell you things that are and aren't safe for rabbits. 

Because your vets don't seem to know much about rabbits, you probably shouldn't let them give anything to your rabbit without researching if it is going to be safe for your rabbit. If your vet did inject your rabbit with amoxicillin, then that could have caused her death, because it should never be given to a rabbit as it is harmful to them. Your rabbit becoming lethargic and refusing to eat sounds like she may have had GI stasis. It can be caused by several things such as too many sugars and grains in the diet, stress, other health problems. There are things you can do to help a rabbit get through GI stasis. Typically for GI stasis you give a rabbit Metacam for pain relief, simethicone for gas relief, a special powdered food mix for rabbits, and water if the rabbit isn't drinking on it's own. Often gut motility meds will also be used to help get the rabbits digestion moving again. Sometimes antibiotics might need to be used as well, if there is a specific bacterial problem, but only certain kinds of antibiotics can be used with rabbits . One thing you won't want to give to adult rabbits anymore is the KMR. This is the Kitten Milk Replacer that you are talking about, correct? It's really not something that is intended to be given to adult rabbits and could possibly cause problems. The things I listed are usually the best things to help get a rabbit eating again if it is just having an upset stomach. But I'm not sure what you will have available in your country. 

Please don't go back to that vet. Try to find a different vet if you can. I don't know if you will be able to find a vet there that really knows how to help rabbits, but if you come on here on RO, when you are having a problem with your rabbit, we can offer suggestions on what your rabbit might need, and the proper things you can ask your vet to do to help your rabbit. You should always ask your vet exactly what are the medications that he is going to give to your rabbit, and if you know it's something that isn't good for rabbits, don't be afraid to say no. Never let a vet give something to your rabbit, without knowing exactly what it is. I can't say for sure, but that 'candy smelling red colored liquid' doesn't sound like it is somehing that should be injected into a rabbit.

Again, I'm really sorry that you lost your rabbit. I hope her babies are going to be ok. And if you have any future health problems with your other rabbits, please post it on here so that we can try and help.


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## LakeCondo (Feb 20, 2013)

I'm so sorry for your loss. I hope the babies are ok.


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## Lhucky (Feb 20, 2013)

actually, 1 baby passed away a day after Lhoe-Lha were gone. We really didn't know what happened. We woke up next day and the baby also died. We did however heard the baby munching/grinding teeth loudly that night. I was soo tired of crying and thinking what went wrong that i disregard the loud tooth grinding and took it as their also mourning.

The day Lhoe-Lha past away, I promised myself never would I ever get my bunnies see a vet again until ofcourse I found 1 that really knows about rabbit. I had this lists of medicinal plants that I've downloaded months ago that said can help bunnies in their sicknesses and health issues. We went to a health shop, bought papaya enzyme tablet, echinecea capsule, dandelion root capsules and chamomile tea. 

I've made a few a calls, 3rd week of January, trying to look for a more savvy vet for my bunnies. there's this 1 horse doctor that you recommend, but he's too far away. 45 mins by plane. 

so, there. maybe this time I killed Lhoe-Lhas baby... I felt so bad. so stupid and so bad.

Yes, KMR kitten milk replacer from beaphar lactol is what we used to Lhoe-Lha. we did however gave a couple of gulps to the baby bunnies when their 2 weeks old, we're scared that Lhoe-Lha might not producing enough milk for all her babies.


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## JBun (Feb 21, 2013)

I cried too, when my own rabbit died. I was so sad cause I loved her so much. She got GI stasis, and I didn't do the right things to help her, and she ended up dying. Sometimes all you can try to do is your best to help your animals. You didn't know the vet wouldn't help your rabbit. I'm sorry you lost your little baby too. It can be hard on them physically when their mom is gone and they aren't weaned yet. Baby bunnies just get sick sometimes. Teeth grinding would have meant that it was feeling sick, but it is hard to know what the cause could have been. Since you don't have a good vet, there might not have been anything you could have done to help it. 

Are the bunnies about 4 weeks old now? Are they eating hay and rabbit pellets on their own, and are they drinking water ok? You will want to keep an eye on their bums and check each day to make sure that they don't get any soft poops now that they aren't nursing from their mom anymore. Don't give the papaya tablets to the babies. Don't give them any fruit or veggies either, until they are at least 12 weeks old. What kind of hay do you give them? Rabbits have a very sensitive digestive system, so you have to be careful about new foods, or changing their food, and some foods can also not be good for them. A good way to know if they are having digestive upset, is by keeping an eye on their poop. They should have normal sized round poop. If it is soft and mushy, tinier than usual, or irregular shaped, then there is probably something in their diet that is causing a problem. So just keep an eye on the bunnies bums and make sure they don't get any soft poops sticking to their bums. 

You can look at the library section here on RO, it has a lot of good info to help know what to do to help care for your rabbits properly. This other website also has a lot of good information.
http://www.rabbit.org/faq/sections/diet.html
And remember that when ever you change your rabbits food or give anything new, to always start with very small amounts of the new food each day, and very gradually increase, only if the rabbits poop stays normal. 

I hope the rest of your bunnies are going to be ok. Remember if you start to have any problems with them, post here on RO, and hopefully we can figure out how to help.


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## LakeCondo (Feb 21, 2013)

Lhucky said:


> We went to a health shop, bought papaya enzyme tablet, echinecea capsule, dandelion root capsules and chamomile tea.



Be careful with those. They can sometimes cause more harm than good. The papaya enzymes are good to give when a rabbit is shedding. A don't know about echinecea for rabbits. Dandelion is a diuretic, so too much could be bad in some cases. According to Rabbit Health in the 21st Century, some rabbits can be allergic to chamomile, so it should be used in small amounts until this is checked out.

One thing I would be sure to get so it's available in an emergency is simethicone drops, the kind that is made for [human] babies with gas.


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## Lhucky (Feb 21, 2013)

Hays = Versele-Laga 100% natural hay
pellets = used to be vita craft menu, now from Versele-Laga Cuni-Crispy
and oats. rolled oats. they all love it.

Those are their every day food.
we made sure though that we also give them some fruits and veggies on their meal once or twice a week.

The babies started eating solid food on their 2nd week. would jump into their mommys bowl of pellets and oats, their first solid food was actually the pellets of their mom, then on the 3rd day after eating pellets and oats, they started munching hay. Today, their exactly 4 weeks old already.


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## Nancy McClelland (Feb 21, 2013)

Sounds like a combination of gas and stasis. Rabbits are just too good at hiding problems. We're so sorry for your losses.


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## JBun (Feb 21, 2013)

I'm glad your other bunnies seem to be doing ok. I would only feed them the rabbit pellets and hay for now. The reason is that fruit and oats have lots of sugar and carbohydrates, and when a rabbit gets too much of these, it can disrupt the balance of bacteria in their digestive system, which can cause an overgrowth of bad bacteria. This can cause the rabbit to get diarrhea, mucoid enteritis, or it can cause the rabbit to get GI stasis where the gut slows down and becomes blocked. All of these are dangerous for rabbits when it happens, and very dangerous for bunnies. Veggies can cause soft poops with baby bunnies too, because their digestive system isn't fully developed yet, so it can be hard for them sometimes, to have veggies, so it's just better to wait until they are a little older, like 12 weeks old, to start slowly introducing veggies to them. So just stick with pellets and hay for the baby bunnies for now, and check them to make sure they aren't having soft poops, and they should be ok. The older rabbits are ok to have veggies if they are used to them, but you still don't want to give them too much fruit or oats, or they can end up getting sick too. The link for the HRS website, has the suggested amount of fruit to give to rabbits, but every rabbit is different. I have one rabbit that I can't give any fruit or treats to or he'll get sick and die. Some ways to know if any of your rabbits are feeling sick are if you hear teeth grinding(not the soft tooth purring they do when you pet them, and they chatter their teeth together to show you that they like it). Grinding is usually louder and a harder sound. They will also usually sit in a corner hunched up in a ball and not move around very much for a long time. They may also lay down if their stomachs hurt, and press their belly to the ground, with their bum pushed up. They may also try and change positions alot, like laying down and getting right back up, over and over trying to get comfortable. They may also squint their eyes. And the biggest clue to stomach and digestive trouble is what I mentioned before about their poop changing or stopping. Their poop is the best way to know if there are digestive problems with any of your rabbits. If the poop gets soft and mushy or extra small then it's because something in their diet needs to be changed. If they stop pooping it's an emergency. Some good things to have for digestive emergencies with your rabbits are: simethicone(infant gas relief liquid). Oxbow Critical Care herbivore recovery food(apple/banana flavor) if you are able to get this in your country, plain canned pumpkin can be used as well if you can't get the Critical Care food(it needs to be 100% pumkin with nothing else added). Oral syringes for giving medication and food(1cc syringes for medications, 3cc for giving water, and 12cc or 30cc for foods), Meloxicam anti inflammatory oral suspension(0.1-0.2mg/kg) it's a prescription med here in the US so I don't know if you are able to get it there without getting it from a vet, baby aspirin can sometimes be used for a rabbit in pain if you can't get meloxicam. These are all good to have for a sick rabbit with an upset tummy.


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## Elliot (Feb 22, 2013)

I am so sorry for your loss.


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## Lhucky (Feb 22, 2013)

I am soo not ready for rainy days, and now it's pouring HARD! Another 2 baby died Thurs mid afternoon and yesterday 3am this morning. My husband found 1 baby having diarrhea, we separate her/him already, give plenty of water orally and hays in the box. The baby still seems to be strong as he/she still can eat hays and can jump out of the box, but don't know when he/she would start showing weakness. 

Before We went out on Thursday around 5pm to fetch Lhoe-Lha's ashes, Lhucky made a dropping as big as a baby's wrist with white to yellow mucous in it. We bought baby simethicone drop, gave 2-3 drops of it 3x for the 1st 3 hours when we arrived home and another after 4 hours. Her food untouched, we forced feed Gerber squash and vitamin B Complex with her mashed pellets and hays. But she just spit it all out. She would drink her water, but exceptionally fewer than she would take it before. I tried massaging her tummy and I felt a few gurgling sound inside. I also don't know if I can give her simethicone continuously until she gets well. Her last medication was 4 am this morning. After the big poop on Thursday around 3pm, she had a diarrhea next then no more droppings again since 11pm Friday, no signs of diarrhea also. But I saw another pile of poop again just now. Her teeth grinding... I don't know if getting rid of those poops make her uncomfortable or there's something else.

I still continue the simethicone on her though, because I don't know what else can we do. 

When Lhoe-Lha past away, my husband asked the vet to do an autopsy on her, we saw that there's a very big chunks of poop stuck in the middle of her intestine. I was afraid that Lhucky also have the same problem with Lhoe-Lha. I would like to upload the photo taken by the vet, but our internet were very very very slow since Thursday and down yesterday! I tried posting this message a lot of times but failed. The vet said that her intestines are all twirled inside. I don't know if its true as his photos shows only how bloated Lhoe-Lha's intestines are. Also telling us that her intestine shows no signs of any bacteria ( when he txted me and said that he gave no antibiotic to my Lhoe-Lha! ) or is it possible?

Normally, I'm a calm person, my husband's more calmer. But today were loosing our minds already. We were anticipating the light from 2 weeks of darkness


We managed to buy Meloxicam yesterday morning, Mobic 7.5mg tablet. But don't know how to give it to her.


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## JBun (Feb 22, 2013)

I'm a little concerned with why all your rabbits seem to be getting sick. Have you changed anything with them in the last week or two? Are they getting a new kind of food, or new treats or veggies, has anything changed in their lives to cause stress or upset their stomachs. It's just strange for Lhucky to be feeling sick now as well. If they aren't getting anything new, how much fruit or treats do you feed them? Do you feed plain rabbit pellets or are there treat pieces in the rabbit pellets? If it's not the food, then it could be your rabbits have contracted some sort of digestive bacteria like coccidia. You could try taking a fresh fecal sample into the vet and have it tested for bacteria or parasites.

The mucous in the poop is caused by inflammation in the digestive track. I don't know what kind of dosage your simethicone is. The dosage I give my rabbits when they are sick is 1cc/ml which is 65mg of the active ingredient of simethicone. I give the 1cc every hour for 3 hours, then 1cc every 3-8 hours if it is still needed. I'm not sure about the meloxicam. I usually get mine from the vet in a premixed suspension liquid. All I know is the dosage is 0.1-0.2mg per kg. I wish I could say to take your rabbit into the vet because it really does need to see a good vet, but with you having problems with your vets, I'm not quite sure what you can do. You could call a vet nearby and see if they will sell you meloxicam liquid suspension that is 1.5mg/ml, then you would have the right dosage. Keep massaging her tummy and let her hop around as much as she will want to. The hopping around helps get the digestive system moving. Keep giving simethicone at the dosage I mentioned. Also keep feeding her mashed up pellets and hay mixture. If you soak it so it's wet, then if you have a blender, blend it up, then use a large syringe and slowly squirt the food mix into the corner of her mouth slowly, a little at a time, so that you are giving her time to swallow the food. If that doesn't work and you can get 100% plain canned pumpkin, then you can give that to her in a syringe. You can also try giving her leafy greens if she will eat them on her own. I don't know what you have there, but I usually give mine green leafy lettuce and cilantro/coriander and parsley. Don't give any sugars, grains, or starches. Also you will need to syringe water into her mouth if she isn't hardly drinking anything. You need to squirt it into the corner of her mouth very slowly so she doesn't aspirate the liquid into her lungs. So do a little tiny squirt and give her a chance to swallow the water each time. If she is still pooping then that is something good at least. The teeth grinding isn't good as it means she's in pain, but it could just be from the gas, so giving the simethicone may help. You need to keep getting food and water into her. I don't know how big she is so I'm not sure how much you need to give. I fed my sick rabbit that weighed 3 lbs., 6cc of food every 3 hours, and about 6cc of water too. It's really important that your rabbit gets food and water to keep the digestive system moving and hydrated. If you can get the fecals tested for bacteria and parasites too, that will help to know if it needs medication, but don't let the vet give medication until you've checked that it is the right kind for rabbits. And if you could get the meloxicam liquid from the vet, that would be good too. If you can figure out how to give the correct dosage with the tablets that you got, that's up to you, but you have to be very careful not to overdose your rabbit.

With your baby bunny having diarrhea, is it real watery diarrhea, or is it just really soft poop? Diarrhea would mean your bunny has a bacteria, probably coccidia. If it's just soft poop, then it is probably the rabbit pellets causing it. Is it grass hay that your rabbits are getting? If it is and your baby bunny eats the hay really good, then you should stop feeding pellets for a few days until the soft poop is gone, then slowly start giving a little bit of pellets each day, and gradually give more each day, as long as the soft poop doesn't come back. When you take the pellets away, you need to make sure your bunny is still eating lots of hay and drinking water. If your bunny has real diarrhea then you will also need your bunnies fecals tested for bacteria and parasites too.

I'm really sorry this is happening to you. I hope you are able to figure out how to help your rabbits get better. If your baby bunny stops pooping, you can give simethicone to it too, but in much smaller dose than your adult rabbits.

This article on GI stasis may help you to know what is happening to your rabbits and what to do to help them.

http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/ileus.html


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## Lhucky (Feb 26, 2013)

Finally! Sleepless nights are ending soon. Thank you all for the help c",$ my bunnies are on their way to getting better again!!!

Lhucky had a very bad bloat. Nothing in her food nor surroundings are changed except of course Lhoe-Lha passed away. Those 2 ladies are best of friends. 

I managed to find a vet that would help me get her back on track. Thank you for the links and advices. Really. It sure helped a lot to know what is wrong with my bunnies instead of leaving it all up to the vet. 1 vet even told me that it's hard to give IV fluid to Lhucky as their nerves are very difficult to find. 

As for the baby bunny, s/he was given COTRIMOXAZOLE 200 mg/40 mg per 5ml Suspension Antibacterial orally. For his/her E-coli. To be given twice a day for a week 0.2 cc. and Bene-Bac Plus pet gel half tube for once a day for 4 days. I don't really know if it's safe for baby with E-coli. I give 0.1 cc once a day instead until I'm sure that it's safe... Bec, s/he was refused to be given IV fluid, we almost lost him/her the other night. My husband himself give IV fluid to the baby 2 nights ago, even if his half scared to death of punching a hole in the baby. Yesterday, we also noticed that his/her genitalia are swollen. Don't know what causes it, as we changed the bedding every day. Baby poops looks normal, although soft in touch. I give baby Pedialyte Mild 30 Apple flavor as water orally. And protexin Restore infant's formula mix with pellets as food. But I'm afraid that it's not enough. The vet give me a recipe for forced feeding, but it includes Yogurt, C-Lium fiber sachet, Gerbil squash, ready to drink Ensure or Boost which are all too sugary. Isn't sugar bad for bunnies or it's just me? Also, Bec I still can't find Questran, can C-Lium fiber be substituted?


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## JBun (Feb 26, 2013)

So did the vet test the baby rabbits stool and find the e coli bacteria? Bene Bac is safe for rabbits, but I'm glad you are starting with small amounts. With probiotics like Bene Bac, it is good to start with a very small amount at first to give your rabbit's digestion a chance to adjust to the probiotics. Then each day you can gradually increase the amount that you are giving so that after maybe 3-5 days you are giving the full recommended amount. If your rabbits poops all of a sudden become really small after giving the bene bac, then stop giving it until the poops are normal again. When they are, then you can try the bene bac again, but just start off with a smaller amount. If the bunny doesn't have mucous in it's poop any more, then it may not need the questran. Questran is used to help absorb toxins in the GI system, that are produced from the overgrowth of bad bacteria. With you giving antibiotics and Bene Bac, it may be helping the baby enough that it doesn't need the questran now. Is the baby eating and drinking on it's own? You don't need to force feed it if it is eating on it's own. And it only needs subcutaneous IV fluids if it isn't drinking and is getting dehydrated. I'm glad your husband was able to give the sub-q fluids, as it sounded like the baby really needed it. Also the pedialyte doesn't need to be given if the baby is eating and drinking enough on it's own. I wouldn't use the recipe your vet gave you for force feeding. You are already giving Bene bac, which is better for rabbits than giving yogurt, I don't know if the C-Lium is safe for rabbits, and Ensure or boost has too much sugar in it. You are right, sugar isn't good for rabbits and it can cause bad bacteria overgrowth in the rabbits digestion, which can make them sick. Sometimes you have to give a little sugar to rabbits, like in their medicine, but you try to give as little sugar as possible to them. If you have to force feed then soak the pellets and if you have a blender, blend up the soaked pellet mixture, add enough water so that it is a thick soupy consistancy, and syringe feed it to the baby. You would probably give about 2-5cc of the the mixture, depending on how big your baby is, every 3-4 hours, but you only need to force feed if the baby isn't eating on it's own or isn't eating very much. Is the infant formula like a human baby infant formula? If the baby is eating enough pellets then it's old enough that it doesn't need milk or formula anymore. Is your bunny eating any grass hay? That will help it's digestion too. The swollen genitalia could be related to the problems the bunny has been having and the soft poop. If it gets worse or doesn't start getting better, there is a possibility it could be rabbit syphilis, which is not the same as the human kind. That has to be treated with Pen G injections, NEVER give Pen G orally. Here is an article about it if the swelling doesn't go down and you think it might be the syphilis. But the swelling most likely has to do with the soft poop and mucous and inflammation of the digestive system.

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Skin_diseases/Bacterial/Syphilis.htm

So is Lhucky doing better now? I'm glad your bunnies seem to be on the mend and I hope they will be all better soon.


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