# Bonding Kirby & Penny - Moving in



## kirbyultra (Apr 13, 2010)

I've been debating whether or not to start a thread about this. *sigh* I'm so stressed out from all the bonding the last couple months (with Toby and Kirby, which I gave up on) that I'm dwelling on every little thing for the new couple. It's driving me insane and I don't want to put all my nerves into my blog. I just have this fear that I'm doing all this work and it's not going to end well. 

Ok, so I've done 16 sessions with Kirby and Penny since I got her. They are both fixed buns. Kirby is 3 and Penny is 2. I do two sessions a day in the hallway outside of my apartment. It's totally neutral territory as none of my buns hang out there. 

The experts at our rescue recommend doing 2 minute sessions until the buns look like they are ready to go longer. Minimum, they say do 2 minute sessions for a week so that they have time to familiarize with each other. I stuck to 2 minutes for most of the week, but they seem to do just fine. Sometimes they'll ignore each other the whole 2 minutes. Sometimes they go nose to nose. 

Kirby usually stands nose to nose with her for about 5 seconds before he pounces on her. I don't let him do that anymore. When they get into this nose lock or their cheeks touch, I pet them both over the head and they sit there for 2-3 minutes without issue. 

They compete to be the one who puts their head down first. I used to think that that was a gesture of submission but I think it's actually a demand to be groomed, therefore a sign of wanting to be the dominant bun. They try to stuff their head under each other's heads and so they end up in this cheek lock (it's funny to watch, but nerve racking to actually experience). If I leave the two of them alone, I know Kirby'll pounce on her head. In the last 2 days I've kept the sessions to 3 minutes each time. 

I know some people recommend doing 15 minutes but Kirby never lasts that long. He gets really frustrated and antsy and it makes me nervous about what he'll to Penny. Penny still sorta likes him despite the slight violence. I don't want her to start hating him 

I can't do car rides to stress them. I live in Manhattan and a "car ride" around the block takes 20 minutes due to traffic (I'm not kidding). Driving at the speed of grandmotherly walking is hardly what I'd call stressful. Plus if a fight breaks out, I can't just stop the vehicle. I don't have a friend's home suitable for borrowing as grounds for bonding. 

For now I just keep doing the 2-3 minute sessions... the buns just kinda hang out. My blood pressure skyrockets for 2-3 minutes twice a day.... it's ok... I just hope we are headed somewhere worthwhile with all this. :faint:


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## Happi Bun (Apr 13, 2010)

Bunny bonding is definitely stressful. Dunkin and Amber are bonded but still have their little arguments. Have you tried banana on the face? Also, you don't need a car to do stress bonding. I've heard that putting the bunnies in their carrier and placing that on top of the dryer or washing machine can do wonders. 

Hang in there!


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## kirbyultra (Apr 13, 2010)

I've heard about that. I have a double stacker washer/dryer 

There is a laundry room in the basement of the building... but i don't know how people would feel about me putting 2 bunnies on top of their running laundry. I probably won't do that LOL I am kinda breaking rules as it is, using the hallway for bonding. My building is kind of anal about stuff. Luckily the hallways don't have any cameras  I have to do bonding sessions at 12 noon and 12 midnight because there's least foot traffic at those times. So far in 16 sessions I've only run into 2 people in the halls. Sneaking around the halls and setting up cardboard blockades is also part of the stress


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## elrohwen (Apr 13, 2010)

I feel your pain! It's definitely stressful.

I've never heard of doing 2 minute sessions. Honestly, I would start with longer sessions involving some stressing (even just putting them in a laundry basket, or a cube made out of NIC grids and carrying it around is good enough) and then some time in the bathtub. You need to give them more prolonged positive exposure. In 2 minutes, unless it was a totally positive 2 minutes, it seems like they would be morely likely to take away negative impressions of the other bun.

Is there somewhere other than the hall you can do it? Bathroom? Bathtub?


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## Bex&Bun (Apr 13, 2010)

Its it possible to use your bathroom? I used that coz Willoughby is hardly ever in there. If your other bun goes in there, maybe cleaning it so it gets rid of their smell and then trying it in there?


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## kirbyultra (Apr 13, 2010)

What if they fight behind the toilet bowl?? I always wondered about that. I can't do it in the tub because my tub is really deep and I can't reach in to stop a fight. It is one of those "super deep soak" tubs lol. I can't sit in there with them... There'll be no room for the buns lol 

There is unfortunately no true neutral space in my apt because they all take turns free roaming. Except my bedroom. They are not allowed in there because of me and my husbands hay and rabbit allergies. The bedroom is the one place we keep rabbit-free so that we don't choke and die in our sleep. I don't exaggerrate because we used to let Toby play on our bed and he used to loooove it but my husband would cough and choke in his sleep. It became a big problem even with the air filter so we had to make the no bun in bedroom rule 

It's usually a very neutral 2 min. Not positive or negative. I don't want to go for much longer than that until later on. The people at my rescue swear by the two minute rule and I don't want to stray too much, then have it backfire and they will be like "toldja so"  I have seen it happen to other adopters and when they fail and go back to basics things work out better.


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## elrohwen (Apr 13, 2010)

Your two minute rule is intriguing! I've read a lot about bonding and have talked to many people and haven't heard of this technique (which is especially interesting since I know rabbit people in CT - you would think they would have similar techniques to those in NYC). If it works for so many, I can't really argue!


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## kirbyultra (Apr 14, 2010)

*elrohwen wrote: *


> Your two minute rule is intriguing! I've read a lot about bonding and have talked to many people and haven't heard of this technique (which is especially interesting since I know rabbit people in CT - you would think they would have similar techniques to those in NYC). If it works for so many, I can't really argue!



Yeah, I won't argue with 60 years of combinedrabbit experience among 3 women in our rescue. If they say 2 minutes, I'll trust them. If it doesn't work after the prescribed number of reasonable encounters between the buns, then I can ask them "what else do I do?" lol


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## elrohwen (Apr 14, 2010)

How long do you do the 2 minute encounters? And what is the next step?


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## kirbyultra (Apr 14, 2010)

About 20 encounters of 2 min each. The purpose is to allow the buns to see each other for a great number of times and accept that it is safe and harmless. It primes them for the longer sessions to come. The idea is that the human can control the session for 120 seconds and guarantee the buns won't fight and there won't be any unpleasantries. Once the buns do it again and again they'll believe simply out of routine that the other bun is not going to hurt them. 

I buy this because my Kirby is not quick to trust and he's much calmer in these short sessions with Penny than the sessions he had with Toby where it was extremely hard to keep them from fighting even for 2 minutes. 

I could try to see if the buns'll share a salad together. I tested them the other day. Kirby wouldn't eat. Penny stuffed her face silly 

I just hope it works!


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## kirbyultra (Apr 14, 2010)

Last night, I let Penny roam the rabbit room for a while and she was in front of Kirby's cage... Kirby came over and stuck his little nose through the pen to try to sniff her. She wasn't close enough so I "helped" a little and pushed her butt against the bars. Kirby started to really stick his nose into the fur in her butt! He wasn't grooming her, he was taking some really deep whiffs! 

I pet Penny a bit and she flattened out, so I pushed the rest of her against the pen. Kirby sniffed her up and down and he seemed to be having a good time. Penny didn't mind. She's lovely and laid back like that :inlove:

Today, I decided to try the hallway _inside _my apartment. I'm getting too stressed out worrying about getting in trouble borrowing the building hallway. I didn't want to use my own hallway originally because that's where Kirby and Toby was bonding and I didn't want Kirby to associate the "bad" place with Penny. Plus the buns run up and down that hallway and it's not exactly neutral, but nobunny "owns" it either. 

They did ok! Kirby put his head on top of hers. She was squished beneath his head and slowly Kirby's head slid down until his cheek was side by side with her. 

I separated them by lifting Penny's head but she kept reaching her neck back over at Kirby. I think she likes him! ink iris:


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## elrohwen (Apr 14, 2010)

Aww, yay for Penny and Kirby! I can't wait to hear how they do in longer sessions, but it sounds like there won't be lots of fighting at least.


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## crystal (Apr 15, 2010)

Sounds like you are having a similar problem to my buns... they both want to be groomed and they put their heads together too.

I found squeezing some of the water from a grape onto their heads made them groom each other. I don't know if it was just because it was after a few more sessions, but the banana thing didnt work for me and it just left them with yucky fur. I found the grape wasn't so bad though cos it's more like water and less sticky. and it got the results I wanted.

I've still got a way to go though... would love to know if you find other things help too. all the best!


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## kirbyultra (Apr 16, 2010)

That is an excellent way to "cheat!" My Penny loves all things edible. I bet I could con her into licking Kirby that way :biggrin2:I should try some fruit juice on him... 

Today, I've beenreally bummed out about my rabbits and soI kind of said, to heck with it... I broke all the rules and sat Kirby and Penny together for 23 minutes total. Kirby was nervous at first and he _did _pounce on her but it was like 45 seconds into the session and I knew he was just antsy.With a lot of petting and coaxing, he relaxed. Later on,Penny flopped over several feet away from him at one point. Kirby groomed himself a little bit. But still whenever they go nose to nose, they get into a cheek lock. Neither bun wanted to groom the other first -- nothing new.

I artificially placed them together side by side (picked up Penny and sat her next to Kirby) and I petted them on the head for as long as they would sit for it. Kirby would occassionally sit up and try to stick his head under her belly, but he did not succeed and so he just sat down and let me pet him again. They sat like this, neither one moving very much for over 15 minutes. Kirby would sometimes lick the floor (he does that a lot when he is lying on his tummy). But no grooming of each other yet. At the 23 minute mark, Kirby got up and walked away. He started to paw and dig at the door so I knew he had his fill. 

When bonding, do you interfere? I pretty much HAVE to pet Kirby otherwise he would just freak out and attack her. But with some gentle petting, he is very calm. I feel like I am "cheating" when I pet the buns during bonding because it shouldn't rely on my presence... eventually, anyway. I think they're just not ready yet to truly work it out alone. What are your opinions?

Here are some pics... I couldn't get a pic of them in a cheek lock. The autofocus sounds on my camera always scare them out of the lock.


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## elrohwen (Apr 16, 2010)

Soooo cute!

My personal bonding philosphy, for what it's worth (since I don't have that much experience) is to make the early sessions as positive as possible, even if that means interfering. One of my buns goes a little hump-tastic when they're first put together for a session, but my other bun hates it, so I just keep her from humping for a bit and she settles down. They will need to work things out on their own at some point, but I'm all about forcing them to be pleasant for at least a week or two and hope that when they do start working things out at least they won't be so inclined to fight. 

I'm also a huge fan of stressing. My personal fav is putting them in the laundry basket and shaking it around on my knees for a bit. It really throws them off their game and makes them snuggle. I like the combo of stressing, then bonding time.


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## kirbyultra (Apr 19, 2010)

I brought home some cardboard boxes that I will use to bring the buns out for a spin around the building as a stressor. Hope it helps! 

Below is an excerpt from my blog. I got so happy today with the results of an impromptu session.

It happened by accident and it went well, sorta. Kirby was out in the rabbit room and I opened Penny's xpen door to give her some love. Penny hopped out so I decided what the heck, I started petting her. They sorta just played on their own for a while. No drama, no aggression of any kind. 

It was so sweet, actually. Penny rubbed her face all over Kirby's cheeks and nose. Kirby sat for it. I separated them twice from their "cheek-lock" and they came back together. Kirby didn't even freak out. But he once again, got annoyed with her and boxed her. Luckily, my cautious hand was hovering there and my hand got scratched and Penny didn't feel very much of it. I ended the session there. 

But I felt like it was very good because the duration was really long (maybe 7-10 minutes) and on top of that, the session was not in a "neutral" territory. It happened right there in the rabbit room where they both live. Both of their pen doors were shut though, so they didn't actually go into each other's space. I think it helped that I refloored the place yesterday, so it wasn't tainted overwhelmingly by Kirby's scent and Toby's scent should be completely gone by now, save for anything on the xpen that now belongs to Penny.

Yay!

I also spoke to one of the bonding experts at my rescue today. Despite my failure, she helped me a lot with trying to bond Kirby and Toby. For what it's worth, their sessions improved 100 times with her advice and help. I told her about what was happening during Kirby and Penny's sessions and she was very positive. She definitely thought this was going in the right direction. So I do feel good about this.


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## elrohwen (Apr 19, 2010)

That's great progress!

I really think it's so important to have an experienced bonding mentor. I have a friend online who has bonded her own quartet and a friend's quartet, which basically means she has bonded pairs between each possible pair of bunny (I guess that's 12 pairs?) so she's been a huge help to me. It's so important to be able to bounce ideas off of someone who has seen it all.


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## kirbyultra (Apr 19, 2010)

Yeah, a support system for such a difficult and stressful process is important. I freak out a lot and I am so careful because of my experience with the boys. Thank goodness this pair is more promising. 

I am at a funny cross roads now... I wonder if they can't peacefully coexist for longer periods of time now. They're not like some pairs who ignore each other all day. They pretty much take 15 seconds to situate themselves and then they can't stop paying attention to each other. Of course I have to watch em like a hawk when they start interacting and get into a cheek lock. I think I consider the cheek lock a bad thing because they still can't decide who's going to be the dominant one. It's like "you go first! No you go first! I'm not going first!"  

It drives me crazy cuz as soon as I pick up penny to put her back in her pen, she licks me. I'm like, Chica, why don't you lick Kirby?!


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## kirbyultra (Apr 19, 2010)

Yeah, a support system for such a difficult and stressful process is important. I freak out a lot and I am so careful because of my experience with the boys. Thank goodness this pair is more promising. 

I am at a funny cross roads now... I wonder if they can't peacefully coexist for longer periods of time now. They're not like some pairs who ignore each other all day. They pretty much take 15 seconds to situate themselves and then they can't stop paying attention to each other. Of course I have to watch em like a hawk when they start interacting and get into a cheek lock. I think I consider the cheek lock a bad thing because they still can't decide who's going to be the dominant one. It's like "you go first! No you go first! I'm not going first!"  

It drives me crazy cuz as soon as I pick up penny to put her back in her pen, she licks me. I'm like, Chica, why don't you lick Kirby?!


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## elrohwen (Apr 19, 2010)

Bonding involves a lot of moments where you think "will they ever get past X behavior?" and a lot of moments where suddenly they're totally over it.

And I'll say that my buns are moving in together tonight, yet neither grooms the other. My girl wants grooms, but relaxes and snuggles fairly quickly when she doesn't get them. It'll happen eventually and as long as it's not causing nipping and fighting it's not a big deal.

Your two do need to work out who is dominant, but I think you will need a few more longer sessions (at least 30 minutes) for them to work that out. It'll happen though! They aren't fighting and trying to attack each other, so there is no reason in the world why they will not bond. Don't stress about it! Just keep going with the procedure and they'll get there. Don't overanalyze as it can just make you nutty (I should know because I tend to do it too )


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## kirbyultra (Apr 19, 2010)

Like what s considered fighting? Kirby boxes/pounces on her but Penny does not react to it. I separate them immediately when it happens. Should I... Not do that?? Maybe thats part of working it out on their own??


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## elrohwen (Apr 19, 2010)

Fighting isrolling around, trying to draw blood. Or serious nipping that draws blood. 

Fur pulling isn't fighting, nor is chasing/nipping as long as one rabbit doesn't react to it. If Penny isn't reacting, leave them together as it's the only way they'll work it out. You can tell Kirby no, or push his head down or something to make him stop, but I would not separate them in that situation.


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## kirbyultra (Apr 19, 2010)

Okie dokie. I will stop Kirby if he continues to try to scratch her after the pounce, but let them figure it out themselves. Thanks!


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## kirbyultra (Apr 19, 2010)

So, I let Penny out of her pen and she had a lot of fun running around the rabbit room for an hour. I saw Kirby's hay basket was low on hay so I gave him and her both a new handful of hay. After that, Kirby came down from his condo and hopped out of his pen. While he was out, Penny was in her litter box eating hay. Both their pen doors were open. 

Kirby went into Penny's pen and started to sniff around. Penny just kept eating her hay. She didn't even care that he was there. He hopped around and she sorta watched him, but she didn't stop nibbling. When he was done looking around and chinning a few things, he hopped out. It was maybe only a minute inside her pen. Then he went to poop in his box and she followed him into his pen. She walked around, sniffing things. Kirby came running out of his litter box (this is not out of the ordinary) and I was afraid he'd immediately jump on her so I got him and calmed him down before he could get to her (3 inches away). They sniffed around each other and then she left.

She's eating hay again in her box and Kirby is just running around the rabbit room. Both their pen doors still open. No fighting. Just living normal life...


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## elrohwen (Apr 19, 2010)

That sounds really good! I think you're only a week or two away from them living together full time.


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## kirbyultra (Apr 19, 2010)

Ok, breaking news of all kinds right now! I finally separated them. I mean it must have been about an hour that they were out neutrally playing in the same area.

First of all, Kirby groomed Penny! Yes, he did! He licked her nose and on top of her head, and the back of her ears. A second time, he was chinning the way back of her cheek, near her neck. And all of this happened inside Kirby's pen.

The sad thing is, Penny did not groom him back. He got mad at her and he boxed her, then ran away on his own. When Penny went back to his pen the next 2 times, he didn't like it and he grunted and paced around. I ended up shooing Penny out of there because it was clearly upsetting him. He almost chased her one time and that's when I finally ended the session. 

After he groomed her the first time, Penny flopped outside of his pen, under my table. Penny seems really nonchalant about the whole thing. Kirby is really worked up and into it. He can't leave her alone, but he can't stand her ignoring him lol She then of course got up and started to lick my hand. Then she slipped her head underneath my hand, demanding to be pet. I bet if she licked Kirby he'd groom her back.

I have pics of him licking her nose but my desktop computer is not cooperating. 

That was incredibly long and most of the hour was pretty laid back. I was doing some work on the computer and surfing RO. They were hanging out... I think it was really positive!


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## elrohwen (Apr 19, 2010)

Yay! That's really really fantastic. They'll work out the Penny grooming him thing soon enough.


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## kirbyultra (Apr 19, 2010)

I sure hope so. But I am quite certain that they will work it out now that I've seen them together for so long and interacting really well.

They've both had a really good day. Kirby just completely dead bunny flopped and Penny is sprawled out on her tummy, legs straight out behind her bum. Very cute! They must be tired. I know I am!


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## hln917 (Apr 19, 2010)

LOL! Seems like she's finally using the female tactic of playing hard to get! Boys do not like to be ignored! Smart chick!

Looks like you're making progress, keep it up!


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## kirbyultra (Apr 21, 2010)

This morning they got playtime together in the rabbit room. It became very clear that Penny will go wherever there is food and since Kirby is so liberal about the food supply that I give him, he had plenty left lying around... Well, Penny kept sneaking in there to help herself.

Kirby didn't like her in his pen too much. He tolerated it at first and then he got downright mad. He boxed her and ran away a couple of times. I shooed them out and closed the door.

The rabbit room seems to be unproductive now. Kirby gets too territorial in his pen, Penny can't help but squeeze her butt in there, and he gets too worked up/fixated on going home if I simply close the door to keep her out. 

Tonight I moved them back out to the hallway. Kirby pounced on her within 14 seconds (I timed it). He was really worked up and antsy so I spent some time calming him down. He seemed no better when I let him loose again, so I picked him up in my arms. He doesn't really like it so I count it as a stress mechanism.

When I put him back down, he seemed better. They sat nose to nose, and then cheek to cheek for a long time. Maybe 5-7 minutes. Then Penny got up and stared around. I went to pet Kirby over the head so he wouldn't be startled by her leaving him and *she pounced on my hand with a grunt! She did this twice, so I am sure she was aiming for me, not him. What is that about?? Did she not want me touching Kirby?*

Nose to nose:





Smushy cheeks and bunny heads









And then finally, I thought why not try the lettuce thing... everyone tells me to give them a lettuce leaf and see if they'll eat it together. I always thought Penny'd swallow it whole and Kirby would ignore it.

Well, it started off that way. Penny ate 1/3 of it already while Kirby looked a little dumbfounded that she left (they'd been sitting together for nearly 15 minutes with their heads together). Then, all of a sudden, Kirby ate with her! He nibbled a few bites which is shown on this video here. Penny proceeded to eat the whole thing while Kirby only ate the couple little bites in the video.
[flash=425,344]http://www.youtube.com/v/bOknUG7eOts&hl=en&fs=1[/flash]

The session ended after that. So this is good right?


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## kirbyultra (Apr 21, 2010)

Bumpity bump!


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## JadeIcing (Apr 21, 2010)

She may not want you touching him. It looks to be going well.


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## kirbyultra (Apr 21, 2010)

*JadeIcing wrote: *


> She may not want you touching him. It looks to be going well.


My husband says that Kirby probably thinks I am his wifebun. When he gets stressed out he seeks my comfort and wants me to love him. Sometimes during the bonding he comes over to me and just looks like a poor soul. At the vet he'll do that too. Poor thing. I keep tellin' him, hey, I'm your mom, not your wifey....:dunno

If Penny is getting possessive of him, that is really good (I think?)... up till now she was so nonchalant through bonding that I thought she just didn't care and couldn't be bothered with Kirby. This is positive confirmation that she does like him!:weee:


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## JadeIcing (Apr 21, 2010)

*kirbyultra wrote: *


> *JadeIcing wrote: *
> 
> 
> > She may not want you touching him. It looks to be going well.
> ...



Lol you may have to cut the appron springs or a divorce. :rofl::whistling

Lol nice to see that makes you happy. :coolness:


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## kirbyultra (Apr 21, 2010)

*JadeIcing wrote: *


> *kirbyultra wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *JadeIcing wrote: *
> ...


:clapping:


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## kirbyultra (Apr 21, 2010)

This afternoon's session didn't go as smooth. Kirby seemed dead set on gettin' her. She tried to sniff his butt and he whipped his head around to meet her. It was defensive, not offensive. He did scratch her once and she hopped away as a reaction (first time I've seen her react to his pouncing). I don't think that's good. She starting to get scared of him. She doesn't come over to him as much, she likes to hop away if he comes close. 

Kirby wants her to groom him when he works up the courage. He sticks his head under her and she won't groom him. I went so far as to putting food on his head and on his body. I made poor Kirby into a lettuce buffet and she was really thinking hard about whether she wanted to approach him. She finally did but very reluctantly. I have to stop Kirby from pouncing on her. She's really starting to build a case against him!

Kirby had his head really far down under her at one point as she was reaching for a piece of lettuce near his ears. That was sorta cute, but she grabbed the lettuce and hopped away. Kirby really liked when she was eating off him and chewing near his body. He closed his eyes, looking pretty relaxed. 

He loves to be loved... she just won't love him for some reason. She has no trouble giving me kisses but him, nope. :grumpy

I feel like we're back peddling again... Sigh. I'm going to scale back the duration again to maybe 10 minutes.


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## Mrs. PBJ (Apr 21, 2010)

I hope its get better. I feel kinda bad my two are so easy seeing everyone else having trouble. 

You want to switch LOL


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## elrohwen (Apr 21, 2010)

I really woudldn't expect grooming at this point - heck, my two are living together and I've seen grooming twice! I would focus on the other body language.

Her moving away from him is actually a good thing because it means that she's not fighting. At this stage of the game you just want to avoid fights. If they aren't fighting, they're working things out. It sounds like Kirby is deeply mistrustful of having another bunny around and it will take him time to learn that she isn't going to attack him first.


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## kirbyultra (Apr 21, 2010)

*Mrs. PBJ wrote: *


> I hope its get better. I feel kinda bad my two are so easy seeing everyone else having trouble.
> 
> You want to switch LOL


Sorry, wouldn't trade Kirby for anything in the world :biggrin:


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## kirbyultra (Apr 21, 2010)

*elrohwen wrote: *


> I really woudldn't expect grooming at this point - heck, my two are living together and I've seen grooming twice! I would focus on the other body language.


You know what the problem is - Kirby keeps making the session about demanding to be groomed. He sticks his head under her, tries to squeeze and be the one "underneath" her head. And then when he doesn't get love from her, he gets mad and pounces on her. He does it so often early on in every session that the only way to 100% prevent pouncing is to break it up as soon as he tries to lower his head in front of her. But then doing so will ruin any chance of her grooming him, if she wants to. 

However... given that the sessions have gone pretty lousy whenever he pounces on her, I think I might just err on the side of caution and break it up. If she wants to groom him one day, she will and it'll just happen... 

Penny also peed on the floor today, btw. My fault, I forgot to bring her litter box out. After she peed, Kirby became really interested in sniffing her ... nether-regions. lol Not in a mean way, but in a curious and interested way. 

Like I said, *lot *of mixed signals today!

*elrohwen wrote: *


> Her moving away from him is actually a good thing because it means that she's not fighting. At this stage of the game you just want to avoid fights. If they aren't fighting, they're working things out. It sounds like Kirby is deeply mistrustful of having another bunny around and it will take him time to learn that she isn't going to attack him first.


That makes sense -- she doesn't seem to want to fight him. She seems really mellow, not an aggressive bone in her body. 

Kirby does have this problem with trust. He always has. He trusts me _now, _after months and months of coaxing him. But now that we've crossed that bridge together, he gets cross with me if I don't pet him when he wants to be pet. He does the SAME thing to me that he does to Penny. (Pounce, scratch, and run) I know his M.O. and I am patient with him being his mom and all, but Penny is just another rabbit. I want to avoid the day she just says "I've had it with you!" and starts to act on it. 

It's weird because Penny is a perfectly nice girl. She has never ever hurt him. The most offensive thing she's done is _not _groom him when he has put his head down in front of her. :expressionless


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## elrohwen (Apr 21, 2010)

Ahh, the demanding of grooms! Haha. That's not an easy thing to watch, because you want to tell him if he'd just be calm and cool she would be happy to groom him. No girl is going to kiss her if you keep punching her in the face. Lol.

It sounds like he just doesn't have fantastic social skills with other bunnies at this point. It's so great that she's mellow, because many other buns wouldn't take his crap. There may be a day where she doesn't want to take his crap either, but hopefully that will happen with a lunge or nip, not a fight.

I think breaking it up and keeping things positive to start is a good idea. Especially as he doesn't seem to have much trust in her, so keeping the sessions positive might teach him that she's ok.

Have you done any stressing? I really really think it would be good for Kirby. You can also try stressing while bonding. You'll have to be creative, but anything that makes a loud and startling noise might break his pouncing mindset.


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## kirbyultra (Apr 21, 2010)

Yep, I think stressing Kirby would be a good idea too. I brought home a box to carry him in so I could walk around some strange places with him around the building. There were a lot of people walking around the last few days due to the "union strike threat" with the building people... so it just hasn't been a good opportunity. Now that the threat has blown over, I think I will go take Kirby for a walk before bonding. For instance last night when he was getting too uncooperative and antsy, I picked him up and cooed him for a bit, that seemed to throw him off his game enough for him to play nicely the rest of the session.

Do I bring Penny along? Do I put them together in the same box and walk around with them?


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## kirbyultra (Apr 21, 2010)

*elrohwen wrote:*


> No girl is going to kiss her if you keep punching her in the face. Lol


So true. This made me LOL!

*elrohwen wrote: *


> It sounds like he just doesn't have fantastic social skills with other bunnies at this point.


Yep, right again. Kirby was a hutch bunny for 2 years before he was surrendered and I adopted him. His sense of social norm is all out of whack. I don't blame him for being odd with people and other rabbits because of this. It's gotta be difficult for him to accept a living being as a friend.


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## elrohwen (Apr 21, 2010)

If you're going to stress before bonding, you really need to bring Penny along - that's the whole idea of stressing. During stress Kirby won't be pouncing on her and might realize that she's an ok bun who will snuggle with him and take care of him. It will give them positive time together were Kirby won't be able to mess it up by being too assertive.


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## kirbyultra (Apr 21, 2010)

I figured as much.  I'll put them both in an open air box and go for a walk. The building neighbors are going to be in for a shock


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## funnybunnymummy (Apr 21, 2010)

Hehe! I love shocking my neighbours with Gus. 

Rue


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## elrohwen (Apr 21, 2010)

I'm sure they'll be even more shocked when you tell them that you're bonding your bunnies and carrying them around in a box together is a very common technique :-D


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## kirbyultra (Apr 22, 2010)

I packed em in a cardboard box, put a towel over them initially so they'd calm down. They were climbing all over each other trying to see over the top of the box. It was sad to watch. Once I picked them up and started to sway the box as I walked, they got more quiet. I went down to the laundry room and put the box in a laundry basket on wheels and carted them around for a while. Two women walked in but I picked up the box in my hands and looked away from them, just rocking the box back and forth. They must've thought I was mental LOL

So anyhow, they were pretty silent through the whole thing. When I took them back to my apt and in the hallway for bonding, they didn't seem to do any differently. Penny ate her lettuce, Kirby didn't care for it. Kirby tried to nip her butt but didn't get any fur. We sat for like 30 minutes maybe, and nothing really happened. He didn't snub her but they weren't loving it and there wasn't as much snuggliness.


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## Mrs. PBJ (Apr 22, 2010)

I hope it starts getting better. I know they will come around. Have you tried over stressing them it sound like Kirby is going to be the dominate one.


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## hln917 (Apr 22, 2010)

*kirbyultra wrote: *


> Two women walked in but I picked up the box in my hands and looked away from them, just rocking the box back and forth. They must've thought I was mental LOL


:roflmao: Lay off those drugs already!!!

Next time, look into the box and start talking to it in front of them!


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## elrohwen (Apr 22, 2010)

Helen, I think that sounds good! They're not going to snuggle right away - at this poing you really just want them to ignore and coexist. If you were able to sit there bored for 30 mins, then that's a good session! I would repeat this a couple more times and see how they do.


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## kirbyultra (Apr 22, 2010)

*Mrs. PBJ wrote: *


> I hope it starts getting better. I know they will come around. Have you tried over stressing them it sound like Kirby is going to be the dominate one.



Right now it sounds like both of them want to be alpha bun. The weird thing is I really thought, when I adopted her, that Penny would be a pushover. She is a snuggle bun and she sticks her head under my hand for pet-demands but she always rewards me with loads of bunny licks back. She simply won't do it for Kirby, maybe because Kirby won't groom her regularly. 

Kirby is used to being dominant. I'm the pushover who made him this way. :twitch:


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## kirbyultra (Apr 22, 2010)

*hln917 wrote: *


> *kirbyultra wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Two women walked in but I picked up the box in my hands and looked away from them, just rocking the box back and forth. They must've thought I was mental LOL
> ...


Hahaha... There were cameras in the laundry room, monitored by front desk probably. THOSE staff members literally saw me carting around a box filled with what looked like black and brown color laundry baaack and fooorth, baaack and fooorth... :rofl:


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## kirbyultra (Apr 22, 2010)

*elrohwen wrote: *


> Helen, I think that sounds good! They're not going to snuggle right away - at this poing you really just want them to ignore and coexist. If you were able to sit there bored for 30 mins, then that's a good session! I would repeat this a couple more times and see how they do.



Ahhh it's so much work...  Nobody said this was going to be easy. I thought I had already stacked this game in my favor, but it's still so challenging. 

Penny is having playtime right now. She just flopped in front of his door. Kirby is staring right at her, totally unimpressed. :expressionless


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## kirbyultra (Apr 22, 2010)

Ugh, nevermind, she flopped over under my chair, demanding my feet to pet her now... Yes, your majesty... :grumpy


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## elrohwen (Apr 22, 2010)

Being indifferent is so good though! Just keep telling yourself that ignoring is so positive right now because it means that Kirby isn't demanding grooms so much or pouncing on her.

And I should remind you that my pair has been together 24/7 for almost 3 days now and I've seen each of them groom the other once, for about 30 seconds. Lol. So that can take time!


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## kirbyultra (Apr 23, 2010)

They are together in the hallway right now. I have decided to step out of the hallway section. I'm watching them from the dining table... The two of them were following me around no matter where I stood so I thought it best to remove myself.

I'm getting a lot of weird signals from them tonight. It's been 30 minutes. So far, they've had solitary time together. Then I put out the litter boxes. They also got salad together. Then I filled their boxes with hay.... 

Here's what's happened the last 30 minutes: 
- Penny's showing signs of being scared of Kirby. Whenever he comes close enough to touch her, she runs away
- Kirby has grunted at her twice, and nipped fur out twice. However, he has tried to also approach her slowly, as if he wanted to groom her
- Penny has pooped in his box. He is still eating out of it though.
- After Kirby went into her litter box and sniffed around, he went to sniff her butt and reeeally dug his head into her bum while she was standing still eating lettuce. She eventually ran away from him.
- Kirby has binkied several times in the hallway
- Penny has also binkied once or twice in the hallway
- Penny dead bunny flopped 2 times. Once, Kirby came by and she got up in a hurry. Second time, he came by and he got to sniff her belly. When he started to sniff her feet, she got up. 
- Now they are both eating hay from their own litter boxes.

We're approaching 40 minutes. I don't know what to make of this activity....:?:?:?:?:?:?:?:?:?:?:?
ETA: Kirby was eating hay from his box while standing beside it. Penny came over and hopped into his box. She peed and pooped in it, then she hopped out and proceeded to bunny flop on the side of the hall. Kirby proceeded as if nothing happened. Now he is in his box too. What on earth is going on....


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## Mrs. PBJ (Apr 23, 2010)

Sound like Storm and Jessi the first day or two. 

I don't know much you know storms and jessi story so i am no expert. Someone will come along babe.


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## kirbyultra (Apr 23, 2010)

I know you are a very lucky woman, Kat. LOL I"m pullin my hair out over here.........


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## kirbyultra (Apr 23, 2010)

She DBF'ed a 3rd time. Kirby came by, sniffed her. She twitched, but didn't get up. He finished sniffing and walked away.

Kirby started to get really chewy on the foam mat. When he chews, he ingests. So I kept shooing him away.... it didn't work. So I threw the empty cardboard box in there (the one I used to carry them around in yesterday night). They both started to hop around it. Kirby flipped the box on its side. At one point they both were in the box for like a second. Now he's playing with the box and she's eating hay, not interested in it anymore.

ETA: I lost count. She flops a lot. Not all of them are dead bunny flops, but lots are. Right now she's flopped, head on the floor, totally relaxed. Kirby is grooming himself in the far side of the hallway. They're sorta ignoring each other, but not really. It's so late. Why don't I ever do this stuff earlier?

Oh yeah, it's cuz if I try to do it earlier my husband is always getting in the way LOL.... he's sleeping like a baby. And I'm over here burning the midnight oil with bunnies. Sigh.


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## Happi Bun (Apr 23, 2010)

This sounds good to me! Bunny flopping is great because it shows they are comfortable. Penny must not be _that _frightened since it sounds like she is flopping all over the place. Most people don't know that I tried bonding Dunkin and Amber before. It was too soon after her spay and her hormones were still raging. They absolutely hated each other! I saw some pretty impressive fighting. We are talking locked in a ball, tumbling around and fur going flying. I thought that would be the end of that. Later I realized my error and when I tried again there was none of that! They still weren't love at first sight and had their problems. Now they are inseparable and best pals. Take that back, sometimes they have grumpy days where they get on each others nerves but that is to be expected in any relationship.


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## kirbyultra (Apr 23, 2010)

Aw... it always gives me a ray of hope when I hear of other people's bonding successes. It's such a tough process, for me at least. I was determined to make my boys bond and when that failed, I was determined to make Penny and Kirby work. I'm so afraid of failure that I'm sure I'm projecting my nerves on them too. 

I think tonight, me being away from the action actually helped, even if a little. I know Kirby has a habit of coming to me for comfort when he's upset or wants to get some lovin' so me not being there for him also made him focus on Penny more.

ETA: Penny is a serial flopper. Seriously! She'll flop in any old place at any old time for just about anyone, so I'm not exactly sure if her flops are a good measure. OR, she is really just THAT relaxed a bun. When she was at Petco, gosh, there were tons of strangers going to and fro, touching and poking at her, sitting in her space, etc. And she would just flop and be all cute! Everyone LOVED her at the adoption events. To date, people still ask whatever happened to "Madonna" and I have to coyly tell them that I adopted her h34r2

However, Kirby's binkies ARE a good indication that he was enjoying himself up to a point. Kirby doesn't binky for just anyone and just anywhere. Penny also doesn't binky much, so her binkies were a good sign too.


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## kirbyultra (Apr 23, 2010)

Ok, Happy Friday everyone. I started bonding this evening right before midnight. The session went on for a solid 1.5 hours, I clocked it! It ended not because I was tired, but because I saw that Kirby had pretty much had it and he started to get really snippy with Penny.

In addition to all the other stuff I pointed out before, something somewhat exciting happened after I put them away.

After bonding ended and I put the buns back in their pens, I guess I forgot to close Kirby's door as he escaped and hopped around, having lots of fun. I petted him a ton, and he was all buttered up when I shooed him back into his pen. I went over to pet Penny but she took the opportunity to hop out of her pen. I pushed her pen over to form a trap against Kirby's pen so I could easily pick her up and put her back.... but when she got trapped...

She curiously stuck her nose through Kirby's cage and* Kirby started to lick her nose.* I mean, profusely! The other 2 times he licked her was just a quick couple of licks. This was really grooming her, getting down and dirty on her nose. He groomed around her eye and he did the top of her head too. He started to get too rough (but he was still clearly _grooming _her, not trying to hurt her). I kept telling him "Kirby, not so rough" but of course he didn't understand... Penny got nervous or perhaps he hurt her and she got up and shook it off. I petted her on the head a couple times and she sat back down. I nudged her body over against the cage. Kirby groomed her cheek, then licked around her body too. She sat there silently for the whole thing. Kirby eventually stopped, stared at her (got no reaction from her), and then he hopped away.

I guess he's kinda "throwing the ball in her court". I know my Kirby, and he wants to be loved. I've never seen him be a "giver" with me, but he seems to give it up for her. I think she does need to show him some kind of affection or he'll continue to snub her :twitch: It doesn't have to be grooming, but when he sticks his head under her, she might just... stay there and let him be tucked beneath her? I don't know... but certainly, doing _nothing_, has gotten her bonked over the head every time.


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## JadeIcing (Apr 23, 2010)

Sounds great sometimes taking yourself out if there is no aggression is the best thing you can do.


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## elrohwen (Apr 23, 2010)

That's so fantastic! I'm so glad you're seeing so much progress.


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## kirbyultra (Apr 23, 2010)

He's just gotta stop bonking her and scratching her. She is really getting afraid of him because of this frustration from him  It's so sad to watch. Then they seem perfectly happy afterward. Very odd.:?


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## kirbyultra (Apr 23, 2010)

Bonding again! At a decent hour for once  

Penny is having a ball. She binkies higher than any rabbit I've owned. It's a little alarming! Kirby is staying near me, even though I'm on the other side of the baby gate. He's not doing a lot of exploration or paying her much mind. Penny's eating hay. After Kirby got a little nippy with her, she didn't seem bothered and then flopped over. She's so weird like that!

Kirby is pawing at the door leading to the rabbit room. It's closed and he's not going anywhere but he seems a little stressed out about it. I'll whip out the salad soon.


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## slleavy (Apr 23, 2010)

i'm new to the site and i was just reading everyone's posts and different experiences with bonding their rabbits. just wondering how long you waited when it was "too short" after surgery? i'm going to attempt to bond 2 males that i have who were just fixed 2 weeks ago but i'm aftraid of when to start! i've read so much and heard so many different stories and of failure especially with 2 boys who haven't grown up together (as in my case) and i don't want to start off on the wrong foot! i've heard not to start more than 10 days after surgery, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, a month, 2 months, etc. any help or advice from anyone would be greatly appreciated!


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## kirbyultra (Apr 23, 2010)

The buns have been together an hour an 20 min and there has been no nipping or any unpleasantness of any kind!!:thumbup

Right now they're eating out of each other's litter boxes. Penny's sitting in his, but he is standing beside hers. We've had binkies from both buns. Once, Kirby binkied right over her head (she ducked).

Just a few seconds ago, Penny binkied and hopped over to Kirby. They went nose-to-nose and upon some consideration, Kirby started to groom her. He's a little rough still. She flinched. But he's going back in for it!:shock:

....ok, no he's stopped and shaken it off. And now he's walked away and they're both settling down a few feet from each other. Penny is looking sooo relaxed right now.

This is so good. I think maybe Kirby decided he will let her be the dominant bun. Awful girl, won't groom him even once. :grumpy

I'm uploading a video of them eating lettuce. Should be done sometime this year. lol
Here is a pic from earlier.






Here is one from yesterday.
Kirby: "Ma, she's so unladylike. How do you expect me to like her?


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## kirbyultra (Apr 23, 2010)

Hi Sam, welcome to RO.
2 boys is going to be tough. Boy hormones can be kicking for 4-6 weeks after their neuter surgery so expect that they may not get along until the hormones have tapered off. 

There are differing opinions on this, but in hindsight, I think I should have separated my unneutered boy from my neutered boy until I was SURE the hormones were gone after both were neutered. It just develops bad first impressions. My skittish boy got really paranoid around him and it just caused unnecessary chasing and fighting. 

My two boys never worked out, but I think one big reason is because my baby boy was, and still is kind of a nut. You can plan for things and do research, but sometimes it just doesn't work out between two buns. 

That said, I DO wish you lots of luck with yours. Just be really patient, is the best advice I can give you. Bonding can be a very trying process for you and the bunnies. Or you could be very lucky and get a pair like Mrs. PBJ (check out her thread for Storm and Jessi's bonding). They bonded in some record time!


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## slleavy (Apr 23, 2010)

thanks helen! i think i'll wait a little longer. i'm just anxious to start!

i hope everything keeps going well for penny and kirby! they're so cute!


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## kirbyultra (Apr 23, 2010)

*slleavy wrote: *


> thanks helen! i think i'll wait a little longer. i'm just anxious to start!
> 
> i hope everything keeps going well for penny and kirby! they're so cute!


Fight it, Sam! Just a few more weeks!  Good luck!


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## kirbyultra (Apr 23, 2010)

[flash=425,344]http://www.youtube.com/v/96YUUja4TtM&hl=en&fs=1[/flash]


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## hln917 (Apr 23, 2010)

LOL! Perhaps you'll need to go back to work soon with the way Penny eats!


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## kirbyultra (Apr 23, 2010)

God I hope not!


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## kirbyultra (Apr 23, 2010)

Summarizing today's events...

The buns were in the hallway for almost 3 hours. The session seemed to get better and better as time went on. Penny and Kirby were unsure of each other as they have been all along. Then Penny started to get less jumpy around him and Kirby got less defensive and abrupt with her as well.

They were napping for a little while as well, a few feet away from each other. Penny was all sprawled out and Kirby was a little loaf. 





Kirby groomed her once and it was a nice long kissy kiss on the head. I think they're starting to trust each other and be friendly. They're not in love but they're definitely friendly.

By around the 2 hour mark I was getting tired of just staring at them so I turned on the tv and let them have some privacy... No problems at all. Nobody was mean, no one grunted. It was very peaceful. 

If it weren't for Kirby constantly nibbling on the playmat (which he shouldn't, it's so bad for him to ingest plastic foam), I'd just leave them there and take a nap (I'm exhausted!). But Penny has to go to the vet at 6:00 today so I had to wrap up and clean so everybun is back in their pen.

Overall very positive day. 3 solid hours is "the bigtime"! lol


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## kirbyultra (Apr 24, 2010)

Haha has everyone stopped reading me over-analyzing every little detail yet? :whistling

Well we're bonding again and it's getting easier and easier (read: less stressful for me!). There is such a level of comfort between them that I don't get into a mess trying to make sure the timing is right and that they don't get into a tussle. It has started off well in the first half hour.

Kirby has already groomed Penny all over her head, and he even got her ears and some of her body. She is unsure of him still, and flinches sometimes. They both binky after so we know they're both happy. Kirby is happy grooming and satisfied that she hasn't groomed him back. He's finally really ok with it. There is no sign of him being frustrated with her anymore.

Penny flopped for about 15 minutes and Kirby watched her for the longest time...then he completely dead-bunny-flopped. For those of you who have followed my 2009 blog, I had tons of DBF pix and Kirby really sports the dead bunny look. His eyes are rolled back slightly and everything :shock: But anyway, he usually doesn't do that unless he is really, really, really relaxed. Frankly, I'm a bit jealous that he's DBFed with her after only 29 dates. He was with me for months before he DBFed. :twitch:


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## Mrs. PBJ (Apr 24, 2010)

Sounds good and yes I am still reading


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## kirbyultra (Apr 24, 2010)

*Mrs. PBJ wrote: *


> Sounds good and yes I am still reading


:hugsquish:


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## kirbyultra (Apr 24, 2010)

I am feeling so drained today so I probably am not gonna make it to 3 hours like last time. It's been 1 hour and 40 min and they are currently lying down and loafed.

New problem has presented itself. Now that Penny knows Kirby will groom her, she's gotten herself into demanding for it. She stuck her head into Kirby's face and Kirby tried to put his head down hoping she would groom him. When she wouldn't and further shoved her head into him, he was backed into a corner and he boxed her again. She backed off, and then laid down on the side. This happened twice. So conclusion: Kirby is ok grooming her on his terms, but he's not so much digging her demands just yet. 

I have seen this one feisty pair at the shelter where one was clearly dominant and when she wanted to be groomed, she made no mistake of it. Her sister would either comply or she'd run away. But she never clawed at the dominant one. -- I guess my Kirby isn't too happy with the arrangement yet. Especially since he hasn't gotten jack out of it yet! :grumpy


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## hln917 (Apr 24, 2010)

Ok, when Kirby box her, what does he do exactly? 

She's a very demanding girl huh? The way it should be!:biggrin2:


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## kirbyultra (Apr 24, 2010)

He gets up on his hind legs, pounces on her head/neck with his front paws, scratches her real quick and then he usually hops away or sits down. He doesn't do it to "fight", but to bully her into going away or stop whatever it is she's doing.

Sigh...yeah she's getting demanding... Funny, neither bunny would act this way with me. They wouldn't dare! But between bunnies they have a way of figuring out who is boss and who's going to tolerate what. 

They are getting more comfortable with each other though. They were bunny loafing several feet apart. When my husband started cooking dinner, the whole apt smelled and sounded strange to them and they sat closer. Still not touching, but closer.


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## elrohwen (Apr 25, 2010)

I'm still reading! Sounds like things are progressing very nicely and they just need to work out who is going to be top bun. Mine have been living together almost a week and I still get some humping from both of them, so it can take time. Also, neither of my buns grooms the other when grooms are demanded, so that doesn't seem so unusual either.

I can't wait til they're at the point of snuggling! I think you can move them out of the hallway soon and into the living room together for their sessions.


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## kirbyultra (Apr 26, 2010)

*elrohwen wrote: *


> I'm still reading! Sounds like things are progressing very nicely and they just need to work out who is going to be top bun. Mine have been living together almost a week and I still get some humping from both of them, so it can take time. Also, neither of my buns grooms the other when grooms are demanded, so that doesn't seem so unusual either.
> 
> I can't wait til they're at the point of snuggling! I think you can move them out of the hallway soon and into the living room together for their sessions.


Hehe, surprisingly my pair doesn't do any humping whatsoever. Kirby's been neutered a long long time and Penny is really mellow, despite being spayed 2 months ago. I think I'd be so weirded out by bunnies humping each other if they did it often lol

They did a weeeee bit of snuggling in the 4.5 hours they were together today. For those of you who were watching on the live streaming webcam, I apologize for the lousy shots LOL There WAS snuggling for about ehhh 45 seconds, but it was hard to see through the baby gate.

I think I'd like to see them actually sit next to each other and touching before I change their environment. The hallway is very controlled, and very calming for them now. I want a little more positive confirmation that they have worked out their dominance issues before I send them out and about in the rabbit room. 

It kind of p*ssed me off when I stepped in to tidy up the hallway and while I was kneeling, Penny licked my foot. My whole entire foot. But poor Kirby, nudging my hand for attention on the other side of me wasn't getting a single kiss from her. I gently pushed her off because well, my feet aren't exactly the most wonderful place to put a bunny tongue. I pushed Kirby over so she could see him... and well, she decided she'd rather kiss my foot again than kiss Kirby. :grumpy:expressionless


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## elrohwen (Apr 26, 2010)

Hannah seems like she would be a humper - she has a big personality. However, Otto is the most laid back, calm, unassuming bun I've ever met. He didn't hump until they were moved in together for 12 hours! So you never know


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## kirbyultra (Apr 26, 2010)

LOL those sneaky little bunners!:rofl:


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## kirbyultra (Apr 27, 2010)

OH my goodness. Penny stole into Kirby's pen and drank his water. She's so addicted to water........


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## kirbyultra (Apr 27, 2010)

I feel bad for Kirby. Penny is running over his condo... Kirby is a little bit bothered by it. He seems to be letting her in. He isn't happy about her being his face but he isn't chasing her out anymore. He chased her out of his "lobby" and out of his pen before. But she came back and he didn't bother with her anymore.


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## hln917 (Apr 27, 2010)

Perhaps he's slowly letting her movein?


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## crystal (Apr 27, 2010)

I don't have much to say really right now, I'm supposed to be doing an essay! 

But wanted to say that I have also been reading... it is interesting. 

Sounds like they are doing pretty well. Hope they continue to improve!


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## kirbyultra (Apr 27, 2010)

*hln917 wrote: *


> Perhaps he's slowly letting her movein?


She didn't ask for the keys, she took them!

She is having a great time eating out of his hay basket, pooping next to the hay basket as she eats (and I'm having to pick up after her!)... She slurped kirby's water yesterday so I removed his water bowl as soon as she was in. It makes me worry, won't Kirby have no water to drink when she and Kirby are fully living together?

No aggression today. She's been chilling in his crib and he seems quiet about it. Not pleased, but not upset.


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## kirbyultra (Apr 27, 2010)

*crystal wrote: *


> Sounds like they are doing pretty well. Hope they continue to improve!


Thanks crystal!


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## kirbyultra (Apr 27, 2010)

Today, we moved to the rabbit room for "bonding" but it was more like just the buns being together. They were together for about 7 hours. Pen doors open and everything. Penny got comfy in Kirby's condo real quick. Lot of action for a little while and then they settled into the afternoon bunny napping mode. This is something they haven't had in the hallway. They were so charged and bothered being boxed into the hallway all the time. Being in the rabbit room _now _versus a week or so back, is such a peaceful experience now, for everyone including myself.

Kirby is letting her in. She's doing her thing. He's doing his ting and it was a very peaceful coexistence. Not a lot of touching between the buns all day. At one point Kirby did squat down for a rest with his head touching her bum. But that was about it for good contact.

I left Kirby's pellets out for him a while ago hoping he'd eat it. He's on a diet right now so he gets very little pellets, and he doesn't even miss having them so they just lie around. Well, Kirby finally woke up from his nap and started eating. Penny came over and shoved her pointy face into his dish. And the two of them were fighting for space in the dish! It was funny until it wasn't. I took away the bowl from both of them and I think Kirby was enjoying her face rubbing against his in the dish because he tried to get her to groom him. Once the bowl was gone, she was too busy chasing my hand around in the air looking for the pellets. He got upset with her again and nipped her twice, with grunts. Then he started to dig his face into her butt and they both walked away from it on their own. I wasn't pleased and scolded Kirby but I was not the one who stopped the fight. They diffused it themselves! 

I think that he was not upset that she was eating his food. He was upset with her ignoring him. :shock:

Well, after 7 hours, I sent them back in their pens shortly after the squabble. Now I can finally rest. I am feeling under the weather


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## funnybunnymummy (Apr 27, 2010)

You sound like you need a glass of wine, a soothing bath and some relaxing music. Try not to get too stressed out! You don't want to get sick just when bonding is going so well!

:hug1

Rue


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## aurora369 (Apr 27, 2010)

It sounds like they are doing great! 

If they can spend the whole day together and not squabble, then they are probably ready for full time co-habitation. How are you thinking you are going to start transitioning them to staying together all the time and over night?

-Dawn


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## kirbyultra (Apr 27, 2010)

*funnybunnymummy wrote: *


> You sound like you need a glass of wine, a soothing bath and some relaxing music. Try not to get too stressed out! You don't want to get sick just when bonding is going so well!
> 
> :hug1
> 
> Rue


That does sound good... *sigh*! I should chill a little bit...


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## kirbyultra (Apr 27, 2010)

*aurora369 wrote: *


> How are you thinking you are going to start transitioning them to staying together all the time and over night?


I don't actually know... h34r2 Are there specific "things" to do? Other than of course, watching them lol


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## elrohwen (Apr 27, 2010)

They're doing fantastic! Don't stress out - they're doing very very well. I can't even stress how well they're doing. haha. Being together in each other's territories this early on is great. I would plan on moving them in together soon and sleeping near them for a few nights.


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## crystal (Apr 28, 2010)

Sounding even better now compared to only a day or two ago


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## hln917 (Apr 28, 2010)

You are doing a great job!

I know the first time we bought the girls home and they started chasing each other around, it made me nervous. Of course I soon learned that they were just playing.


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## kirbyultra (Apr 28, 2010)

*elrohwen wrote: *


> They're doing fantastic! Don't stress out - they're doing very very well. I can't even stress how well they're doing. haha. Being together in each other's territories this early on is great. I would plan on moving them in together soon and sleeping near them for a few nights.


I think I was too stressed out. I wasn't sleeping well and I think it made me easily susceptible to germs  

I gotta run a bunch of errands today so their time together is going to be shortened a bit, but I'll try to put them together for some time at night. 

I'm just wondering if they live together, Kirby may be on more than a diet. He may starve! She eats everything  She drinks everything too  What can I do about that? 

I weighed Kirby and Toby today just as a benchmark. Kirby's lost a lot of his chubbiness. I am glad the diet worked out. I've been dieting him for weeks...months... He was 5.9lbs in November. Now he is only 5 lbs, 3 oz.  I think that's a good place for him. Toby is only 3 lbs 1 oz. I'm kind of shocked because I coulda sworn he was heavier the last time he was at the vet's. But I have been restricting his pellets as well for a while, save for the while he was molting like nuts.


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## elrohwen (Apr 28, 2010)

He may just learn to eat faster. The first couple days my two were together, I don't think Hannah got any pellets. She wasn't particularly interested in them before bonding, and after they lived together Otto ate them all. He would take all day eating them and she still wouldn't get any.

After 3-4 days, she was digging into the pellets as soon as I set down the bowl! She figured it out  I still think Otto eats more than her, but hay makes up for some of the balance.

Is there anything Penny won't eat? I try to provide some veggies I know Otto won't eat that Hannah likes so that she'll get them all. But Penny might just eat everything in sight.


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## juliew19673 (Apr 28, 2010)

It sounds like your the only one getting stressed out - lol.. Could your buns be picking up on your vibe and than get antsy to stop bonding as "Mom" is not taking well to bonding?

I agree if the other women you know who are more expert at thisandwould stick withthe 2 minute rule or what if you went just 3 minutes for awhile as they seem to be able to handle 2 now. Its a long slow process at times or you can do what my buns decided to do (read my last entry in my blog) however I do not EVER suggests this, but it worked very quickly.. lol.

Good luck and will look for updates and tips thatyou find that work for you.


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## kirbyultra (Apr 28, 2010)

*elrohwen wrote: *


> He may just learn to eat faster. ...
> 
> Is there anything Penny won't eat?...


Uhh, nope. She eats everything. Even things that I try to keep from her. ESPECIALLY things that I try to keep from her! Like parsley. Seems to trigger extra cecals in her almost immediately!

I don't know, I guess Kirby'll have to figure it out or not eat..  Poor baby. He's my favorite bunny. To see him not be alpha and then see her not give him kisses, and eat his food... makes me so sad


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## Mrs. PBJ (Apr 28, 2010)

kirbyultra wrote:


> *elrohwen wrote: *
> 
> 
> > He may just learn to eat faster. ...
> ...



Hey babe I have been following its a bunny thing. :hug2:

I know and you know it will all work it self out. I give Storm and jessi a little more so they both get enough. Maybe you can work something out.


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## kirbyultra (Apr 28, 2010)

*Mrs. PBJ wrote: *


> Hey babe I have been following its a bunny thing. :hug2:
> 
> I know and you know it will all work it self out. I give Storm and jessi a little more so they both get enough. Maybe you can work something out.


Thanks Kat... *sigh* I am glad someone understands. 

Ugh, it's gnawing at me inside, still. She's squatted herself in front of Kirby's hay basket and eating herself silly (literally, silly. There's hay on her head LOL:spintongue). Kirby meanwhile, had to sit on the side of the basket and eat off the floor. My poor King Kirby! My King! Eating off the floor! :grumpy

Earlier, I saw that Penny had gone upstairs in his condo and eaten some hay, then left. Then I saw Kirby sitting on the side of the basket nibbling hay and I thought it was weird. I asked "Kirby, why are you sitting on the side?" And then I peered over the hay basket to see over the hay... I saw a puddle of pee there. And Kirby looked up at me as if to say "now you know. she peed." I gasped and just screamed "That WENCH!" 

Anyways, don't get me wrong. I don't dislike Penny. Just the opposite, in fact. But it's just funny to villainize her a little for my own entertainment lol In reality, it's great that they're able to eat together _inside _Kirby's territory.


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## Mrs. PBJ (Apr 28, 2010)

POh the peeing and the pooping if there is not a box there I would put one there.

My two have poop wars everyday. I am constantly cleaning poop I would add a few more litter boxes although I know you have your issues with her and that. Any where she would eat I would put a litter box for a short while.


The bun where up to four at one point now they are back to 2 one in the cage one out of the cage. But mine get closed in the cage at night. If they could free rome I would only have one.


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## kirbyultra (Apr 28, 2010)

A litter box wouldn't fit where the hay basket is because it's inside a condo.. I don't really know where else would be helpful, but I guess I can put more litter boxes on the floor. 

They are not having poop wars. Not at all, actually. But Penny just has bad litter box manners. If she eats, she pees and poops. 

Ok I found a way to make it sorta fit. I slipped the litter box under the ramp, so it's there, but the ramp leads right into it  I better remove it when they're not bonding.


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## kirbyultra (Apr 29, 2010)

LOL check out what I saw on the webcam. 
At least my poor Kirby got the top bunk.






Penny: "Hey Kirby, you got nice digs."
Kirby: "Ahh, shaddap. Tryin' to sleep here!" *shakes head*


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## kirbyultra (Apr 29, 2010)

I gave them 6 hours together today in the rabbit room, all cage doors open. Everything went well. No accidents until...

I gave them a plate of lettuce to share. Kirby sniffed it up and as soon as he realized there was no parsley in it, he lost interest. Penny was gobbling it up. Since she was sitting still, Kirby took the opportunity to groom her. She got ticked off by it, flicked her ears at him. He didn't quit so she got mad. Dropped her lettuce, boxed him and both buns hopped away. She promptly picked up the nearest piece of lettuce and continued chomping. Happened in a matter of about 6 seconds. 
hwell:
Kat's additional litter box idea worked really well for Penny who sat there to dine (due to lack of space she was forced to sit in the box). :thumbup I've taken it away with bonding being over since Kirby has to hop over it to get up and down. Litter boxes are slippery. Not what you really want to be stepping in after coming down a ramp! 

:eats:< -- Penny

anic:<-- Me, for a long time. I think that removing myself from the rabbit room completely helped my stress level. Without having to stare at their every movement, I have been doing much better. Watching them on my private webcams really helps remove myself and yet keep an eye on them (I can hear them from the other rooms though)! Kirbykam is still the same, it mostly looks over Kirby's area. Toby's webcam had to be renamed. It is no longer Tobykam. It is now... wait for it... *PennyPeep*. 

:shame


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## elrohwen (Apr 29, 2010)

Hannah marked with pee quite a bit during bonding sessions and their first few days together. It may be that (or she may just have lousy litter habits). 

Definitely try to keep your stress level down. I recommend a glass of wine or two while bonding 

And I know what you mean about watching their every movement. I spend 24 hours a day with the buns for the first 4 days of their living together and watched everything they did. Even now, a week and a half later, we keep our bedroom doors open (before we closed them) and head downstairs if we wake up to any noise. You'll learn to trust them with time and know that they're not going to start a fight over things. I still get tense though when my guys start humping and last night somebody pulled some fur out of somebody else. But I'm more calm now that I know they're not going to get into a knock down drag out fight.


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## kirbyultra (May 1, 2010)

been dragging my feet the last few days. Got a cold and other stuff going on. The buns haven't had as much time to bond as a result. But they did get a couple hours together yesterday. Same old, same old. 

They are eating hay together still. It's very cute. 

Kirby and Penny spend a lot of time lounging around their own areas, not really together. But they don't fight. The most they'll do is wack each other once, and then hop away but they don't do it often at all. 

I have some late night stuff to do so I"m gonna leave them together overnight and see how they do. So far they're squatting in their own spots.


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## kirbyultra (May 1, 2010)

Hi everyone. I think it's time to move them in together... they seem to be doing fine together over several days. To date they have never had a real fight. Just a couple nips and buns running in opposite directions away from each other. They have gotten better and better. They're comfortable with each other however, they still don't snuggle. Kirby grooms her but she is still kind of uncomfortable with it, and sometimes runs away. They can "share" food: Penny eats way faster than Kirby and eventually she eats all the food for the both of them  They nibble on hay together peacefully.





I think they are ready... they aren't lovey dove but they seem to be very civil together.

What's the correct way of doing this...? I still do want to have an enclosure around their space because there are wires and things in the room. It's bunny proofed but I still don't feel good about letting them run the whole room 24/7. So what I have done is dismantled Penny's xpen and connected the xpen to Kirby's xpen. The result is now they have 2 xpens connected together into a rather large space, and that is connected to Kirby's Leith condo so they can both freely move about. 

Is it a mistake to take away Penny's xpen as "her" space? Do you think based upon my observation that it is ok to put them together now?

And I'm just kind of scared and reluctant about this because Penny eats everything and Kirby may not have any pellets and lettuce to eat  Or water to drink!


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## JadeIcing (May 1, 2010)

Sounds like a good pla:thumbup


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## Mrs. PBJ (May 1, 2010)

Have you thought about getting a cat water think the ones that are bigger. I have one for Jessi and Storm. Also Ali gave me the idea to feed them on a plate. Like what we eat off of. 

Also i would hand feed kirby his parsley. 


I thinks it time to move then in together they will work it out.


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## kirbyultra (May 1, 2010)

*Mrs. PBJ wrote: *


> Have you thought about getting a cat water think the ones that are bigger. I have one for Jessi and Storm. Also Ali gave me the idea to feed them on a plate. Like what we eat off of.
> 
> Also i would hand feed kirby his parsley.
> 
> ...


You mean those like, continual flow thingies with a big "water bottle"? I don't know what they're called but I have seen them in pet stores. I don't wanna do that because I am convinced Penny can and will drink the whole thing! And then she will urinate everywhere.... :grumpy You know her litter habits are still really lousy. :yuck

Hand feeding the parsley sounds like a great idea! I will do that. It's his fave so I'm sure he will eat that up.

They're together now and well, they're still lying around separately. Kirby on his 3rd level of the condo and Penny on the floor on the other side of the room.


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## kirbyultra (May 1, 2010)

Here is the old configuration. Condo and xpen for Kirby. Penny in her own pen.





Here's the new digs - this is just what I threw together... it may not be the final configuration of the rabbit room. The xpen is all jagged because of the way it needs to connect to the condo. Not loving it but it'll have to do for now. I think this is plenty of space for a bonded pair to run around in.


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## Mrs. PBJ (May 1, 2010)

Storm and Jessi did not start laying together for about a week after being together 24/7.


Now they sleep in one spot together if their not laying their together they are separated. Like right now Jessi is on top of their cage sprawled out and Storm is in the pin asleep.

The pin is like a bunny heaven. 


I would try the water thing. Has she been tested for diabetes? All that water drinking is not normal.


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## hln917 (May 1, 2010)

*kirbyultra wrote: *


> Toby's webcam had to be renamed. It is no longer Tobykam. It is now... wait for it... *PennyPeep*.
> 
> :shame


You come up with some of the most hysterical phrases!


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## kirbyultra (May 1, 2010)

*Mrs. PBJ wrote:*


> I would try the water thing. Has she been tested for diabetes? All that water drinking is not normal.


Believe me, I know it's not normal. Already been to the vet. $400 in vet bills later, she's still drinking water like it's spiked with crack. I just don't have that kind of money to blow.


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## kirbyultra (May 1, 2010)

*hln917 wrote: *


> *kirbyultra wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Toby's webcam had to be renamed. It is no longer Tobykam. It is now... wait for it... *PennyPeep*.
> ...


:rofl:


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## elrohwen (May 2, 2010)

I think it looks like a great set up! You can definitely change it later, but it's a perfect temporary home for them. I left my guys in the temporary home for almost two weeks. And I actually think it works as a permanent home, unless you wanted to get rid of one of the xpens and just keep them in Kirby's original space, which I think is probably big enough. My guys have a 4x2 cage attached to an xpen, so 4'x8' total. Originally it was just Otto's space, but it's plenty big for the two of them.

They snuggled together before moving in, but didn't groom. Even now, two weeks later, I see each of them groom the other maybe once or twice a day, but very briefly. So it can take time for friendship to turn to love. I wouldn't worry about it at all. 

Also, have you considered feeding them separately? Maybe dividing the pen in half and giving each of them food on their own side. Let Kirby have 30-60min in a small area with his food to eat what he wants, then put them back together with the remaining food. At least then he'll have a chance to eat what he needs. And he might learn that he needs to eat fast or lose out - my two bunnies are eating much faster together than they ever did alone. They used to leave most of their breakfast until 5pm, but now it's mostly gone by 10 or 11am because they want to make sure they get enough. Kirby won't starve himself.


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## kirbyultra (May 2, 2010)

Thanks! I really liked giving them more space but my husband couldn't work at his computer desk with the pens connecting all wacky, so I had to edit -- New rabbit room configuration pic below! 

Behavior wise, they did fine overnight. No fighting, no issues. However, as you'll see below, I had to separate them from living together anyway. I also had a problem with Kirby because when I moved everything around, he got confused about where his litter box was and he couldn't seem to find his hay basket. Penny pooped in every single litter box (there were 3) so he didn't think any of them were his. Poor bunny was eating scraps of hay off the floor  So I had to edit that too. 

Here's what I started with this morning, which I showed you before.






I made it smaller, removed the 2nd xpen and replaced it with NIC panels to make right angles. Also made it a ton easier to connect the xpen to the condo! It is a really good amount of space for 2 buns and plenty of space for my husband to get to his desk on the far right (not shown).






I thought I was done but Miss Penny got her panties in a bunch and started to have herself a pee fest. I just couldn't take it anymore. I nearly had a meltdown because of how much she was peeing in a single afternoon. It's really, really sad, but I had to separate them again. 

I made the most of the new setup however, and built a NIC door to separate them. If I leave the door in its "down" position, it swings like a doggie door so that Kirby can have his privacy to eat his food without barring Penny out completely. She can swing in if she wants. If I clip it in its "up" position, both buns can freely get into each other's space for play time. And finally, I can choose to clip it shut so that Miss Penny has to go home and pee in her own little space. I bought these NIC panels last year and never used them. Boy am I glad I had them today.






All told:
Husband's work space was enlarged by 50%.
Kirby's courtyard was shrunken by about 25%. 
Miss Penny's Uri-nation was enlarged by about 25%. 
Slave Helen's sanity level reclaimed about 50%. :scared:


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## elrohwen (May 3, 2010)

What are you long term plans with this? Remove the NIC barrier once they've got litter habits under control again?

Oh, and Hannah peed everywhere in their new pen for 3 days. I would honestly just throw them together again and see how it goes. They'll figure things out.


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## kirbyultra (May 3, 2010)

Penny has been peeing everywhere for a month though. I don't think she's going to stop until I give her a fairly stable environment and let her work it out herself first. Until then they'll just have to be playmates 

KIrby had a little poop war with her overnight... well he won. I lost.


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## elrohwen (May 3, 2010)

Hahaha.

If it's been going on that long, then yeah, I'd work on it too. Then again, with how much water she drinks, I'm not surprised she can't hold it until she gets to her litter box


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## kirbyultra (May 3, 2010)

Don't I know it! I have had to restrict her water big time. I only give her 1 bowl of water a day now. I give it to her in halves, twice a day. She still drinks more than any bun I know. My other buns hardly touch their water! I could sometimes forget to change their water for a day or so and it'd look the same as when I gave it to them. Not with Penny!

I plan to scale her down regardless. There's no reason for a bun to drink that much water, I think. She gets a big salad every day. My other buns get two salads a day, but it's because Penny makes extra cecals when she gets two salads.  Plus she steal's Kirby's salad leftovers (like she is at this very moment! :grumpy) She definitely gets enough water intake - she just has to work on getting her tail into the litter box!


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## kirbyultra (May 4, 2010)

I am wondering... maybe I'm doing something right? Maybe my constant pleading and begging is working and the girl understands? Penny is peeing less outside of the litter boxes as far as I know. 1 accident yesterday. One accident this morning. Poops all over the place, but that's nothing compared to urine. Maybe it was a UTI and the Baytril is working. I don't know what to say...

In terms of bonding, I think it's safe to say they are bonded. :clapping:Their cohabitation has been really good. No poop wars. No fighting for food or space. Just hanging out with each other and selectively alone. So far so good. And it only took 30 sleepless nights :shock: I took Penny in on April 4, so 30 days on the nose. 

Issue now is that Kirby and Penny's poop litter habits are degrading. For Kirby, I'm fairly certain he's confused due to all the changes. I think the rabbit room hasn't been stable for more than 4 or 5 days at a time the last month. I guess I'd be confused where the bathroom is too. 

I'm going to remove all the hay racks and dump all the hay into 3 litter boxes in their area. Kirby notoriously goes to the potty in the first level of his condo. His litter box has been there since November 08 and he knows that's where he goes, litter box or no. :rollseyes When I moved his hay rack down to the floor, he started to eat there and poop there. Penny was worse: She ate there, and pooped and peed there. And she hops into the hay rack and pees on the rack... so, no more hay racks until everybody gets back into the litter box bandwagon !
:litterhealthy:


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## elrohwen (May 4, 2010)

The continuing poop is normal. I would wait a week or so before you worry. Just pick it up and throw it back.

Yay for Penny not peeing everywhere! I hope the Baytril was the answer for her.


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## Mrs. PBJ (May 4, 2010)

elrohwen wrote:


> The continuing poop is normal. I would wait a week or so before you worry. Just pick it up and throw it back.
> 
> Yay for Penny not peeing everywhere! I hope the Baytril was the answer for her.



I just vacuum everyday well when I start working it may be every other day. I gave up on pooh but I don't have a pee issue.


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## kirbyultra (May 4, 2010)

*Mrs. PBJ wrote: *


> elrohwen wrote:
> 
> 
> > The continuing poop is normal. I would wait a week or so before you worry. Just pick it up and throw it back.
> ...


Can't vacuum these poops, Kat. They're the size of a large marble. Penny's a big poop girl lol Plus her poops are usually a little wetter than other buns. They aren't mushy, but they are definitely less hard than the other buns'. Gotta hand pick em up. Picking up 50 poops in the morning is so not the way I want to wake up LOL 

Looks like the hay rack removal is starting to work, though. Miss Penny got all her giant poos in the box. Kirby hasn't dumped a pile on the floor either. Yahoo!


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## elrohwen (May 4, 2010)

Yay! That's awesome!


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## kirbyultra (May 6, 2010)

Kirby and Penny are sleeping next to each other-ish. It's so cute. Penny's sleeping in the hidey box that Kirby never uses. Kirby doesn't usually sleep over in that corner. But there they are, next to each other.


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