# BunTastic!



## Torchster (Oct 11, 2009)

Well, Iâve been thinking about starting a blog for a little while. I have no idea what I am doing â but Iâll learn as I go.

Iâll start, well, at the beginning and slowly go from there.

Last February, I looked again at getting a pet. I live in a condo, lived by myself, and sometimes work long hours. Growing up, my family always had pets. We always had a small dog, and for a while we had a couple of small birds. I am a very much a dog person. But I just donât feel like I have the space for even a small dog. So I ruled out a dog.

I am allergic to cats, so that wasnât an option.

Then I thought about fish, but to me, they are more like a plant. They really wouldnât liven up the house much.

Birdsâ¦small ones are more like fish. The larger types can live for like 30 years, and they never leave and go to college or anything! Plus they can be very loud for a condo setting. Next.

I ended up in the same place as I had always ended up before. Couldnât come up with a reasonable pet idea, something that had a chance of working out for both me and whatever critter I ended up with.

I canât remember exactly how, but I was surfing the web for pets, and I saw a few pics for bunnies. At first blush, I kind of looked at bunnies, said that was nice, and went fruitlessly went on surfing the net. But some where in the back of my little brain, bunnies registered.

A couple of days later, I was searching online again, and thought about bunnies. What the heck, I wasnât having any other luck, why not do a little research on bunnies â I didnât think that they would work, but what could it hurt, right?

After watching some videos, I eventually ended up at the HRS. Hmmm, bunnies would be ok during the day while I was at work. They donât need a yard. Iâm not allergic to them. Bunnies could be happy in a reasonably sized cage during the day while at work â then I could let them out at night to get supervised playtime. They are social, they would liven up the house. Over the next few days I watched videos about rabbit care, building a cage, and about rabbits themselves. I read most of the HRS website, well, not the whole thing; but I did read a lot.

I read up about the work that the HRS does, what a rescue organization is, and the best way to go about getting a rabbitâ¦


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## Wabbitdad12 (Oct 11, 2009)

Some times things like that happen. I never even thought about rabbits until we had to bunnysit one. Then the next thing I know I have 16 of them.


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## Torchster (Oct 12, 2009)

So, I decided to go with a rescue organization. Since I knew nothing about bunnies, why got to a breeder? I thought that I would give a chance to some bun in a rescue. I donât need some pure bred bun or anything. Plus, a rescue organization could help me with getting the right bun for my situation.

Ok, I had a plan. Before getting a bun, I needed to get the cage thing taken care of before I brought home a bun. I built my own nic cage from plans from the web. It was kind of fun to build a cage. The cage squares will a little more expensive that I thought it would be, and I ended up spending more than I thought I would, but its ok.

Once I got the cage built, I contacted the rescue and started the paper work. I was only really looking for a small bun. I was worried about the size of my cage. I did 3 squares long by 2 squares wide, 3 squares high with two levels. I probably could have gotten a bigger bun than I did, but I wanted to make sure they had enough room.

So, once my application for a new bun was approved, I met the rescue at a local pet store. They had brought a number of buns for me to look at. I only had to look at three buns. I really donât remember the first two. They seemed pretty darn scared â which is understandable. Then I picked up Bert. Now he is a pretty out going bun to begin with, but of course I didnât know that at the time. He was just so cute and friendly. When I picked him up, I knew he was the one. 







At the store, I picked up some bunny pellets, some hay, a carrier and some other little things that needed, and I took my little boy home for the first time. I got very lucky with Bert. We bonded from day one. But I still took it easy. The first couple of days I just kept his cage closed and just stayed near the cage â but didnât rush anything. Finally on Thursday I attached an xpen to the front of his cage so I could open up his cage but keep him a safe area. He came out rather quickly to explore.

By the weekend, I was getting in the xpen with him. He was pretty comfortable and would come out and explore me too. It wasnât long before I had made the living room bunny safe and I would let him out to explore.

Then one day I had let Bert out of the cage in the living room, and I was lying on the couch watching TV. Out of the blue he just jumped onto the couch to join me. He just laid down next to me and quietly watched TV together. It was then, it was there, that I knew I had made the right decision.


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## Wabbitdad12 (Oct 12, 2009)

Thats a cute story, Bert does sound like a very special bunny. Glad it went so well.


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## Torchster (Oct 12, 2009)

So my first couple of weeks it was just Bert and I. I gradually opened up more of the house for supervised playtime. He liked to explore, and I made much of the house safe for him to explore.

I used to have an extra bed room where I had a computer. I would go on there and surf the web for bunny info, and Bert always came in to say hi. Then he jumped up on the bed in there, which was OK. Then I found him down between the comforter and the sheets. He just loved to burrow down there and explore. He tasted the sheets and comforter a few times, but that is OK, no major damage. Sometimes, I would crawl under the sheets with him and feed him hay by hand. Sometimes I would just pet him.

One day, I decided that I was tired and that I was going to take a nap. I got into bed and he jumped right up to join me. He just went down by my feet and we took a nap together. Of course, some time later, I woke to bunny wiskers tickling my nose, and Bert staring me in the eye about 2 inches from my face - saying, "you awake?"

It became our Saturday thing to do together, take a nap together in the afternoon; at least until he wanted to get up.

We were just a couple of bacholers (sp?) hanging out together on the weekend.


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## Wabbitdad12 (Oct 13, 2009)

With Bert around you won't nap away your whole Saturday!


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## Torchster (Oct 14, 2009)

I knew that wouldn't be a single for long. The research I had done lead me to think that Bert would be lonely in his cage all day long while I was at work. So I needed to get him a girlfriend. I also had a work trip coming that would take me out of town for a week. So I gave the rescue a call. They would babysit him for the week, and find him a mate at the same time. The only thing I wanted was a small bun, because of the size of the cage, and a different color so I could tell them apart. That was it.

It was kind of hard to be away from my little boy for a week. I missed spending time with my little guy. The rescue sent me a few pics while I was gone, but I couldn't wait to get my little guy back. The updates weren't always encouraging. They were have trouble finding my guy a mate, and running out of girls. It was Thursday and I was coming back the next day and no luck.

Then I got this pic...






It was a pic of my boy and his new girlfriend. And I had two bunnies. Now granted, Petunia doesn't look too thrilled in that pic. And she has been slow to come around. She isn't too sure about me, even after all these months. But I think that she will come around.

Now I have two...where does it stop?


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## Wabbitdad12 (Oct 14, 2009)

*Torchster wrote: *


> Now I have two...where does it stop?


It doesn't take it from a man with 16!


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## Fancy77 (Oct 14, 2009)

*Torchster wrote:*


> Now I have two...where does it stop?


U r up bunny creek with no paddle LOL


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## Luvr of Wabbits and Polar Bears (Oct 15, 2009)

*Fancy77 wrote: *


> *Torchster wrote:*
> 
> 
> > Now I have two...where does it stop?
> ...


:laugh:


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## Torchster (Oct 17, 2009)

So I had to take my uncle to the ER...then I get home to see Bert is NOT himself. Ugh.

Some baby gas-x (can spell the big fancy word) and he seems to be doing better. Will have to separate the kids tonight, to see how how much he is eating and the like.

Before he was a big lump in the corner, not wanting to move or anything. No interest in food, or anything. One dose of the stuff and he is grooming himself, and Petunia. I saw him take a little drink of water and eat a little hay. 

Too much excitement for one day...time for bed.


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## Elf Mommy (Oct 17, 2009)

I hope he feels better soon! Great start to your blog and it's great to have you here!


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## Fancy77 (Oct 18, 2009)

So glad to hear all is better now!!!!


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## Wabbitdad12 (Oct 19, 2009)

Hope he continues to improve!


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## Torchster (Oct 21, 2009)

Bert is back to his normal self, although I don't think that he was happy to see the Yankee's winning. What can I say, my boy has taste.

I took down some of their cage complex. Some of the advice that I gotten was that it was too high. I had turned some wardrobe boxes into bunny castle on either side of the cage then connected them with a walkway above the cage, but perhaps that was a bit high. I took down the walkway, but I still have the boxes. Over all, its just not as high. They can still get in the boxes and climb some steps to get up to chest high, but I think it is pretty safe. I like to have something for them to get a little exercise in. I like their complex to be interesting and have some stuff for them to do. If they want to lie on the floor, they can do that. If they want to move up to the 'perch' and see things from a couple of feet up. If that want some quiet time to take a nap, they can go inside to get away from the 'busy world' around them, they can do that too.

I'm still thinking about getting a 3rd bunny, but I am also a little scared about how Bert would take to a new room mate. I guess I will wait a little while to decide.


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## Torchster (Nov 1, 2009)

I've been away from RO for awhile. Bert and Petunia are doing well. Currently Bert is vacumming the living room carpet. I got some new furniture and redid the layout of the living room. I have a recliner couch so I was always worried about the kids getting into the couch and not being able to get them out. I went to a storage place to find a new box for the kids to play in. The have these 'lamp' packing boxes. They are long to put a lamp into. Hmmm...they would make a perfect bunny tunnel. I got a couple and attached them together and I put them behind the couch, it covers up the back part of the couch so they can't get inside...and it gives them a tunnel to play in. Win Win.

Actually it works out pretty well. If they wanted to hide back there and stay out of reach they can. But my buns aren't free range buns, so that isn't a major worry. The are normally in their room (when I am not around) and I only let them out if they are doing OK. Plus, if I even reach into a Wheat Thin box, they come running, so things work out well.

Petunia does spend most of her time back there, but I'm not so surprised by that. I can hear her right now doing some remodeling. But I'd rather have them tearing up a box, then the new furniture I just got.


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## Torchster (Nov 3, 2009)

The kids are alright. Petunia spent a good part of tonight running around the living room. She only had one accident where she got a little loose in the corner and clipped the wall. I brought her in the pits and added a round of wedge and a pound of air in her rear tires and she seemed to handle better in the corners.

Bert went for a piggy back ride. He prefers to let others do the work. He was such a good boy that I had to give him a couple of raisins. I decided that we would groom my face instead of my shirt. It was too cute.

I put a bunch of hay in an over sized litter box I keep in the living room for them when they are out and about. Its cute the way they bury their heads in the middle of the stack to find the best bits. I big stack of hay with a bunny bun sticking out one end and couple of ears out the top.


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## SweetSassy (Nov 3, 2009)

Cute pic!! :bunnyheart Can we get more pic's of them? Please. LOl


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## Torchster (Nov 8, 2009)

I thought that I would put some new pictures in here. Granted I am not a photographer...and I only have an iPhone camera...but here we go.

Tried to get the kids...Just got Bert's best side burying his face in dinner.





My baby girl...thinking that if I get any closer that camera she's gonna beat me with it.





Hey, I'm trying to nap here.





Sorry they are so grainy...but that is the best I can do with the old iPhone.

The kids are doing well! I love them so much. Petunia still is pretty shy, but I can give her a few head rubs some time. Its OK, she's still my girl.


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## SweetSassy (Nov 8, 2009)

They are so Cute!!


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## Wabbitdad12 (Nov 9, 2009)

Great pictures, they are very cute.


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## Fancy77 (Nov 9, 2009)

They buns r looking great!!!! Nice pics with an iPhone


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## Torchster (Nov 9, 2009)

So I have had my kids for about six months or so now, and I thought that I would take a moment to reflect on life with my kids.

As a single guy living alone, the old condo had been a little on the quiet side for a few years. I thought that I really wanted to get a pet. Somehow I found bunnies, and it was a really good decision. I've taken some flack from people, but I really don't care, I love my Bert and Petunia. Do I wish my Petunia didn't seem so scared of me and let me pet her a bit more, sure. Do I wish my Bert didn't shred carpeting as much as he does, sure. But in the grand scheme of things, those things don't really matter.

Of course the first time that Bert wasn't feeling well...well I FREAKED. I knew that it doesn't take long for a bunny to go from bad to really bad. He came thru. Every once in a while, I go to the Bridge, but usually I find it too sad to stick around. I know I should send a message of support to those people, but I just can't read those messages. I really do feel those people, but I'm worried about the day that I will be in their shoes.

God only knows how much money I have spent boxes and building little place for them to go. They each have their own tower, but spend most of their time together. I have converted some lamp boxes into tunnels they can get into behind the couch (so they can't get INTO the couch). I built them a nic cage. I even built them a stand with a ramp so the can get up to the window and see what is going on outside. How much have I spent, who cares.

There is nothing like when I lay down on the floor and Bert comes up to lick my shirt. He will spend as much time as I let him. I take this time to get out the brush, or i just gently pluck his fur. Sometimes he wants to go for a piggy back ride, so I take him around the room. Other times, I just lie on the floor next to him.

Now, I will admit that I have said that Petunia was a little more warm. But it makes those times when she will let me pet her head, that much more special. Those times when she comes running down the hallway, does a circle around the living room, and barrels back down the hallway that much more special. Those times when she comes over and nudges my foot, before hoping away...just that much more special.

My only hope is that my bunnies think that their life is better since I got them from the rescue (whom I am sure treat the bunnies as best they can). I know that my life is.


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## TinysMom (Nov 9, 2009)

This is the first time I've read this blog and I love it.

I love both of your bunnies - but especially Petunia.

I'm so glad you enjoy your bunnies so much and I love what you've made for them. They're such lucky buns...


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## Fancy77 (Nov 9, 2009)

WOW u r such a sweet person. I know both your buns have it MADE with you and know they r special. 

But if you ever feel the need to help spoil some one else's buns plz plz plz dont hesitate to ask. I will be more than happy to let you know what mine need and you can send it my way lol


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## Wabbitdad12 (Nov 10, 2009)

Well it looks like Bert and Petunia have trained you well as a bunny slave.


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## Torchster (Nov 11, 2009)

I've been looking a lot into getting another bun. Perhaps I just need to window shop for awhile. Since Bert is so high strung, I doubt if I were to get a third I'd have any hope of bonding all three together. For some reason I've been really drawn towards a Flemish. It's seems weird, but it seems like that breed is more common up north. The farther south you go, the less there seems to be. Nothing really in the DC area. A couple of CraigsList, but I don't feel comfortable with that. Nothing really in any Rescue. I wonder why that is?


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## Fancy77 (Nov 11, 2009)

Flemish are so great..u wont regret getting one.


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## kahlin (Nov 11, 2009)

It's hard to resist increasing the bunny family, isn't it? I've got Finley and Behr right now, but some day I'll get a French lop. Or any lop really. I'm drawn to them.

So if you're drawn to a Flemish, I think you'll get one somehow. It doesn't go away!


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## Torchster (Nov 11, 2009)

Well, Bert isn't feeling well again. Probably Statis. I gave him some Little Tummys gas relief drops. Although he hates this stuff with a passion and giving it to him is a nightmare, he seems to be doing better. This stuff seems to work really quickly. I doubt he ever gets near a full dose. He just hates it so much. I might try and give him a follow up dosage. I'm not sure the stress is worth it. 

I got him in march, and this is about the third time he has been like this. I kind of wonder if there isn't something that I am doing fundamentaly wrong in his care. Just last night I spent like a 1/2 hour plucking his back to help with his current shed.

I can't help but think that I am missing something.


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## kahlin (Nov 11, 2009)

I think some bunnies are just a bit more sensitive. None of mine like the gas relief stuff, but I don't care if they don't like it - I'm going to do everything in my power to make them better. 

Maybe it's something he's eating - like veggies or something?


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## Fancy77 (Nov 11, 2009)

I am no expert but could they have chronic stuff like this due to genetics?? that seems like a lot to me..wow and it sounds like u try really hard to avoid all of it.


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## Torchster (Nov 12, 2009)

he is shedding pretty hard right now. I think tonight I am going to lock him in his cage over night so I can see how things are coming out. With two bunnies, it can be a real challenge.


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## kahlin (Nov 12, 2009)

That it can be...it's so much harder to pick up on illness unless their behaviour is off too.


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## Torchster (Nov 16, 2009)

Bert seems to be doing OK. I think that he is going thru a molt (isn't that like a massive shed?). Its weird, he is about 1/2 down, but seems to have stopped. He shed a lot of hair off the top of his back, but you can see where he has shed and not shed. It been the same for a couple of weeks. I work with him a pluck him every day, but I guess he decided to stop mid molt. It would seem that his legs, butt and belly are really warm, but his back must be kind of cold .

I kind of go back and forth on getting another bunny. Sometimes I want to, other times I don't. I think I will keep it to my two kids for awhile.


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## Fancy77 (Nov 16, 2009)

Happy to hear Bert is doing better, but that is odd about him molting lol 

I would love to see new pics of your fur kids...it has been far too long since the last ones


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## Torchster (Nov 17, 2009)

Instead of pics of the buns, I thought that I would take a few pics of the BunTastic play pen. I bunnies have free run of 1/2 a room while I am work durning the day, and that is where they sleep at night.

It take two pics to really get the feel for the main part of their room. I have converted some old Wardrobe moving boxes into 'towers' on either side of the old NIC cage I used to keep in the living room. They can climb up to the top of the box with some internal stairs that I put into the boxes. With small bunnies the boxes are very stable. Yet another reason not to get a Flemish.












Of course, if you are gonna do something, might as well over do it right? I thought it would be nice to make a way for them to get to the window so that they could see out if they want to. So I had a little ramp that I wasn't using and created a 'table' with PVC for them to sit on. The ramp and table are cover with carpet. What you can see on the side of the ramp, is the big ex-pen that I use to keep the bunnies away from the bunny supplies.






Now how do I keep the bunnies on the table and keep them from getting to the bunny supplies? Well, its darn near impossible to see, but its plexiglass. There are like 30 inch plexiglass walls to keep the bunnies safe. They can climb up the ramp, and see out the window, but the table top is enclosed with plexiglass so I can see them, if they are looking out the window. The plexiglass is secured to the wall (that is why there are those two wooden rods sticking out of the wall), so they can't get into trouble. They can't get under the table - so it give me more storage of bunny supplies.







Maybe if I stop spending so much money on bunnies, I can spend some money on a real camera.

And yes, I keep like 5 different litter boxes in their cage for 2 less then 5 pound bunnies. Some are a mix of litter and hay to eat (get changed and moved around every day) and some are just for doing their duty. They are pretty good about their litter boxes.

It used to be a lot bigger, but I took down the really high stuff. And there are cut outs that can't be seen, so in case I need to get a bunny out from somewhere I can.


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## Fancy77 (Nov 17, 2009)

Holy Cow what a set up u have!!! Bunny pics still wanted tho lol. Love the "table" idea, that was very creative.


_"Maybe if I stop spending so much money on bunnies, I can spend some money on a real camera."
_:roflmao:

_"Yet another reason not to get a Flemish."_ hnoyoudidnt:


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## Torchster (Nov 17, 2009)

Everything I have in my house is designed for my small bunnies. The big boxes wouldn't work because a big flemish would be too heavy, the small tunnel boxes behind the couch wouldn't work, because a flemish just wouldn't fit, and the plexiglass on the table would be too short. So many reasons not to get a flemish. I think that I will stick with my babies for now.

I must admit one thing. I though I find it difficult, sometimes I find myself reading some of the bridge announcements, or some of the threads about sick bunnies. Honestly, if I head read that stuff first, I might not have got a bunny. Now, my babies aren't going anywhere, and I love them to death, so don't worry about that. And I have to give some people all of the credit in the world for what they try and do for their bunnies! God Bless them!!!!

But some of the stuff that I see people going through, really does make me so sad, and so scared. Sooner or later I will have to go through the same things with Bert and Petunia. Actually, it makes me so sad, that I can't even talk about it right now. I think that I will just get back work.


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## Torchster (Nov 19, 2009)

Right now Bert is playing catch Petunia...I think Petunia is playing bring it on punk. I took some pics of my babies..

Here is one of my baby Bert playing with a toy.





Petunia thinking...LEAVE ME ALONE





Here is one where I can hope ya all can see his shed/molt...which seems to have stopped. His back is done I think, but its just not coming off his behind and his sides...weird.


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## Fancy77 (Nov 19, 2009)

:yes: pictures whoo hoo They r looking great!!!! That is a nice molt Bert has going on, kinda cute


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## Torchster (Nov 22, 2009)

The kids are doing pretty will. I was just laying around with Bert today and I think Bert fell a sleep. His eyes were just barely open, but I think that he was having some kind of dream. His nose would twitch from time to time, and he would chew. I was all curled up in a ball. I started to think that maybe he wasn't feeling well, until something woke him and he gave me a big old yawn and went over ate some hay. I'd like to think that my little baby was dreaming that he was in a giant field full of carrots.

I think that I've gone as far with Petunia as I can. I don't think that she will ever get any more warm than she is. But that's ok.


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## kahlin (Nov 23, 2009)

Aren't bunny yawns the cutest? When I see one I always tell the bunny in question that he/she has such a tough life.


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## Torchster (Nov 23, 2009)

Yeah bunny yawns are cute, I'm also surprised by the mouth full of teeth they have. I'm sure it isn't easy to eat all that hay and greens stuff, but they sure do have a pretty big set of teeth!

I just wish I could make more inroads with Petunia. I know that she will never be a lap buny, and that's ok. If I have treats she will come running, but unless I have presents, she would really rather not be around. Granted, at times, I can approach here for a quick head rube, but that is few and far between. I wonder what else I can do.


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## kahlin (Nov 23, 2009)

How long have you had her? We've had Finley 3 years and it's still a work in progress. 

At first we couldn't touch her if she was out of her cage. But she's graduated to the point where she'll nudge my feet and hop away to her 'pet-me' spot. And sometimes she'll come over the couch and sit close-ish so I can pet her while I watch TV...at really uncomfortable lengths and positions on my part. She doesn't make it easy on me!

I didn't do anything special with her, just gave her time...and loving and kisses whenever she'd let me. I don't even think I spent much floor time with her because it wasn't something she was into.

With other bunnies, I have read to them before and that helped a bit.

How is her relationship with Bert? Are they madly in love, or a dysfunctional bond? I think part of the problem I had with Finley is that she was in a dysfunctional bond and she didnt feel that safe with him - even though she loved him. As a result, she was on edge and wouldn't relax enough to get to know me.


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## Torchster (Nov 24, 2009)

Am I the only one here who can't bear to go the rainbow thread? It just scares me so much.


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## Fancy77 (Nov 24, 2009)

I hear ya it is a tough thread. It took me for ever to get up the nerve to go there. I never say much cuz I dont have anything inspiring to say lol but I still wanna extend my condolences. take your time no one gets upset if you cant go there.


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## Torchster (Nov 24, 2009)

Anyway Kahlin, I think that Bert and Petunia have a pretty good bond going. I got Bert first, but gave him back to the rescue I got him from to do the bonding. My only orders were something smallish, and a different color. So after a number of bunnies, it seemed to work between well between Bert and Petunia.

I would describe Bert not as dominate, perhaps aggressive with bad manners. Petunia as shy and withdrawn.

When I first got both of them home, a few times when I was petting Bert in front of Petunia (to show her I was a good guy, and that Bert didn't seem to mind it) she would come over and try to scratch me with her front paws, kind of this 2 pawed punch, if you will. I didn't see it as aggressive behavour, actually, I think it was defensive behavour. She only ever did it when I was petting Bert and only went after the hand that was petting him with. I think that she thought I was hurting Bert. She stopped doing that on her own.

What little history I have with them is that they were both 'rescued' from the wild. If true, it wouldn't surprise me if Bert just wandered up to someone and said take me home, although how someone could just throw their bunny out, is beyond me. Someone at least took him to a shelter and the rescue I got him from got him from a shelter. He is pretty comfortable with people. Petunia has a similar history-but with her black and white coloring, I find it hard to imagine she would last long out doors. My gut feeling is that she has more bunny social skills, but far less people social skills than Bert.

After several months of work with Petunia, I am wondering if perhaps I need to 'handle' Petunia more. Currently, I only do this infrequently, only when needed. Petunia and I are to the point where I can sometimes pet her head, but only for a minute, and only in place where she feels safe. Perhaps if I were to handle her more (aka pick her up) she would become more comfortable. While I doubt she will ever become a lap bunny (which is fine), I do have to handle her from time to time, for her own good (like vet visits). Currently she becomes this little ball of nerves if I pick her up - her breathing becomes fast, she freezes up, she will not take treats...she clearly HATES it and seems very scared. I would just like her to get to the point where she just gives me a dirty look and life goes on, that is really all.


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## kahlin (Nov 24, 2009)

She sounds a lot like Finley - although Finley wasn't a stray.

I personally don't know that I would suggest handling her more (picking her up anyway). I think that just might make her more scared - but definitely check with others on that...

I handle mine only when necessary, and I can't say that it's made it any harder to work with them during vet visits or forcefeedings.


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## Torchster (Nov 25, 2009)

Ya know, I've heard that socialize a bunny to people, they handle them a lot at a young age. Now, this doesn't work 100% of the time, and some bunnies will never be a people person, but I wonder if it can work on an older bun? Any thought from the bunny experts around here?


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## Torchster (Nov 25, 2009)

Well, I did it again, I went to the infirmary. It just makes me so sad to see what some people are going through and have gone thru. These people clearly care for their bunnies very very very much. The make countless sacrifices for their babies. And to see what they are their bunnies go through is just completely heartbreaking. It makes me so sad. I can't imagine what they are going through, but I fear some day I will have to go through the exact same thing.


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## Torchster (Nov 28, 2009)

Bert isn't feeling well again. I've been trying to give him symethicone. It won't have any of it. I've tried everything I can to give it to him. Put it on his paw, 3 different times I managed to get him into a bunny burrito-no small feet in and of itself-and he thrashed his way out. It is so hard on him to do this. He really doesn't tolerate it at all. He just thrashes so hard that I am afraid I am going to hurt him.

My nerves are just frazzeled. I'm just so tired of fighting with him. It so hard to handle him. I can tell he isn't feeling well, he is tired, and he is fighting with me with every ounce of strength he has left. I when I give him a minute to rest, he looks so exhausted. I'm just at wits end. WITS FREAKIN END.

I really don't know what to do anymore. I try so hard to give them a health diet, clean water, clean cage, let them out to get exercise...sigh.


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## Torchster (Nov 28, 2009)

Well, it now 4:00 in the morning. Been fighting with Bert most of the night. I finally switched to Regalin. Some on the board don't recommend the stuff, but the fights over symetcone (how ever ya freakin spell it) seemed counter productive and were getting a little painful, for me. My arms are pretty scratched up now. Now he fights to get away from me. He's as shy of me as Petunia is. I just don't think the stress of trying to give him more is worth it. At some point it has to be counterproductive. Its been a long night for both of us.

He used to tolerate the Regalin stuff, but now if he even see the sygrene (however ya spell it, I don't really care right now) and he is in fight mode. I managed to put some on his paw and got him to lick it off.

God its been like 6 hrs of trying to get it thru his thick head that I am just trying to help, that is all.

I did see him eat some hay, and there are some poops in his litter box (I have separated my two bunnies) but they seem kind of small, and they aren't as numerous as I might expect. He doesn't completely fail the treat test, but just isn't feeling well.

I'm just so tired. I only have two hands and can barely hold on him anymore, let alone try and force feed him anything. One of these days I'm so afraid that I am going to hurt him while trying to give him some meds. He really doesn't go into any kind of scared mode, its all fight with him, every single step of the way.


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## Torchster (Nov 28, 2009)

The only update I have to this blog is the infirmary threat at the moment. I'm too tired to even try to update here. He is in the hospital for the next few days. There goes my christmas shopping money, but if comes home OK, that will the best christmas present I ever got.


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## kahlin (Nov 28, 2009)

I hope he improves quickly.


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## Torchster (Nov 29, 2009)

Tonight is the first night in a long time with out any bunnies in the house. It feels very weird. It feels so empty. I thought that it was best the Bert and Petunia stay together at the vets. Him being in a strange place and just getting knocked out, and probably in pain from the surgery, I thought that it was best to keep them together. At least he can have something familiar near him.

That have visiting hours tomorrow from 12:30-2:00 and I plan on taking full advantage of that!! I can't take him any treats or anything, but I can give him lots of nose rubs and let him know that I still care for him.

On Monday I can bring him home. He and Petunia will have to still be separated for the most part - I will have to lock him in the cage to keep track of food and water intake, but I think that I will be able to let them out together for a little while.


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## kahlin (Nov 29, 2009)

It's hard to have an empty house - but it's for the best. And I'm sure they'll both be happy to see you today.


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## Torchster (Nov 30, 2009)

Well I spent about 1/2 hour at the vets today visiting my babies. Bert mostly showed me his backside and Petunia was too scared to even take her favorite treat (wheat thin) from me. I'm not sure she even recognized me.

Bert seemed ok, but he wasn't back his old self. He seemed to be doing ok. Saw him kind of pick at his hay. He seems ok.


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## Fancy77 (Nov 30, 2009)

How is Bert today???


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## Torchster (Nov 30, 2009)

Today is the day, I hope, that I get my babies back from vet. I haven't heard from them yet, but they are probably waiting to get back some lab work that they were doing.

Then tonight, my house will be filled with my little bunnies again! Woot.


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## Wabbitdad12 (Nov 30, 2009)

*Torchster wrote: *


> Well I spent about 1/2 hour at the vets today visiting my babies. Bert mostly showed me his backside and Petunia was too scared to even take her favorite treat (wheat thin) from me. I'm not sure she even recognized me.
> 
> Bert seemed ok, but he wasn't back his old self. He seemed to be doing ok. Saw him kind of pick at his hay. He seems ok.


You better load up on the bribes, I mean treats, to get back ontheir goodside.


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## Torchster (Nov 30, 2009)

All I have to say is...

MY BABIES ARE HOME!!!!!!!


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## Fancy77 (Nov 30, 2009)

arty:


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## Torchster (Nov 30, 2009)

Well my first attempt at giving Bert his medicine came...he went. I went to the bathroom to get a bandage. I scratched me up pretty darn good. The second I went to grab him, be began fighting, the second. I couldn't even pick up the little guy. This is going to be fun, ugh. Those back legs are pretty darn powerful.

I don't know how you guys do it, I really don't.

Right now he is eating some hay, but every time I move in his direction, he takes off.

Welcome to my nightmare.


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## Torchster (Nov 30, 2009)

SON OF A #$#@&. Not only did he get me again, but ripped the band-aid right off and got the same spot!

Bert 2, Torch ZERO.

I put his antibiotics suspended in some critical care and locked him in his carrier. I will see how this goes. Now off to do some wound care...on ME.


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## Fancy77 (Nov 30, 2009)

Sorry but as much as I feel ur pain I am getting a chuckle out of all this...Keep up the good work...clap clap clap


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## Torchster (Nov 30, 2009)

I'm glad that I am entertaining. So far, he hasn't touched his critical care...but for now is locked up in prison.

Any one in the greater DC area want to give me a clinic on working with bun who hates you? Maybe some rescue out there wants a donation for a little educational work?

Maybe WonderWoman can come around and use her rope thingie on Bert?


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## Fancy77 (Nov 30, 2009)

:roflmao:

Yep entertaining is correct...


But if you r in need of education...the infirmary thread is the place to go.


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## Torchster (Nov 30, 2009)

I've tried all that stuff. I can't get him in the bunny burrito. The second I get him in it, if I get that far, he starts fighting so hard. I mean he does everything he can to get out of it, he fights like its life or death. Its not he struggles for a second then stops. He keeps struggling and struggling until he gets free. He does not stop. He thrashes, shakes his head, kicks his hind legs...everything that you can think of. I am very scared that either I am going to hurt him, or that he is going to hurt himself.


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## Fancy77 (Nov 30, 2009)

OH ya I can see what u r saying. It sounds like you need a second pair of hands...but if I remember right u dont have that option. I would call the vet tomorrow and see how they gave him these meds...


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## Torchster (Nov 30, 2009)

One set of hands. But he has changed since he left. He was probably handled pretty hard at the vet (only doing what they had to do-but it makes people like me who aren't expert bunny handlers life very difficult). Before he went in, I could at least pick him up. Now he goes into fight mode the second I get a hand on him. He has become very defensive. He is very wary of me, never used to be, and does not want to handled AT ALL. He is thrashing so hard that I'm afraid of those stories you hear about a bunny breaking its back kicking so hard.

He took a nibble of critical care.


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## Fancy77 (Nov 30, 2009)

Huh I wonder if leaving him alone for the night would b the best...sounds like that is what u r doing already.


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## Torchster (Nov 30, 2009)

I locked him in his cage - with the critical care. Of course the first thing he goes for is the hay. Little #$#%. He has a pretty big cage, so its no big deal. Petunia is locked in the room (but not the cage) with him. They can see each other, but they are separated. Hopefully he will eat his critical care.


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## Fancy77 (Nov 30, 2009)

I am by far no expert but it sounds like u r on the right track


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## Torchster (Dec 2, 2009)

Well, the best that I can do is to put the antibiotic on a wheat thin. He doesn't get a full does, but better than anything else I can give him. I can't handle him anymore, but I can get close to reach my hand out to touch him, but he won't stick around.

He seems to be doing ok. I've have started giving them a lot less pellets. They have always had a ton of hay, and I am pushing that to keep them healthy.


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## Wabbitdad12 (Dec 3, 2009)

Your definitely doing your best and being a great bun parent.


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## Torchster (Dec 4, 2009)

I won't say that my babies are ok, I don't want to jinx them. Bert is running around when I let them have out time. He still isn't to keen on getting to close to me. He never has been one to take little head rubs. He used to come up to me and lick my shirt and my face. I'd use that time to pluck him a little bit. He grooms me and I groom him. But he isn't interested in that anymore. If I get in arms reach, he shows me his backside and usually heads in the other direction.

Petunia, is well Petunia. She never has been too keen in human interaction. But I love her just the same. Last night she came over to say hi. It seems enough for her to come over and put her nose against my leg to say hi. If I move my arms to pet her or anything, she is gone in a flash...so I usually just tell her what a beautiful girl she is and just interact with her by voice. I'm thinking about working with her more. Perhaps a little one on one bonding, just her and me, is in order.

I am concerned about Petunia though. With Bert having the tooth problem, I assume that she isn't far behind (since they had the exact same diet). She seems to be OK, but I am trying to watch her the best I can.


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## Fancy77 (Dec 4, 2009)

IMO I think if u give Bert ample time he will come around to the sweeties he once was. He might need more time than others do to bounce back. U r doing a great job and very keen to their body language.


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## kahlin (Dec 5, 2009)

You may not need to worry about Petunia having similar problems to Bert's....some bunnies are more sensitive or more hardy than others. 

I hope Bert continues to do well and that Petunia opens up for you. It can be a struggle to get a bunny to warm up to you.


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## Torchster (Dec 8, 2009)

Well, I went out and spend a few dollars on my bunnies for christmas. Ok, they are spoiled rotten. I spent a lot of money for my bunnies, I got them lots of chew toys. I don't go to the internet to get them stuff too often, but when I do, I usually buy them lots of stuff. I got them some willow rings and willow balls and I also got them a basket to chew on.

I wonder if they know to open a christmas gift ?

I think that my Bert is doing OK. He is eating good. They are adapting to their new diet well. I think that Petunia misses all the carrots they used to get. And they both miss the pellets they used to get. They used to get a lot more than they do now. Now they just get a little bit of pellets. They are eating a lot more hay than they used to, which I don't mind at all.


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## Fancy77 (Dec 8, 2009)

Great to hear that Bert is doing better!!!


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## Torchster (Dec 9, 2009)

My bunnies are doing ok, I guess. I guess that I worry about them a lot. I feel a real sense of duty towards them, if that is the right word. They are totally dependent on me for everything. Sometimes it gets a little overwhelming at times. Every night the first thing I do when I get home is give them some pellets for dinner, then I go get myself something to eat. After I eat the bunnies have play time. Usually, when I open the cage to let them out, I go out into the living room and bribe them with part of a wheat thin to get them to come out. Both my babies came out to get their treats. After awhile I was wondering what Bert was up to so I went to find them. It isn't uncommon for them to go back into their pen after they run around for bit. So I see Bert lying all spread out on the floor and I think that he was clicking his teeth (I have never really been able to pick up well on this behavior). I begin to wonder if its because he has a full tummy from the pellets and is just chillin'. Or, is it something else. Perhaps his tounge isn't healing all that well, and how on earth would I even tell??? I check to see if he is drooling or anything like that. He past the treat test-so he must be OK, I guess. Maybe to reassure me, he picks at a few pellets left over from dinner. I guess that he is OK. I hope that he is.

I guess the one thing that I was not prepared for was the emotional investment I have in these two, and especially Bert. Its not that I don't love Petunia, but there is something special between Bert and I. It is kind of nice to just lieonhe floor with him while he licks my shirt, and I pluck bits of hair from his latest molt.

I see the posts on the rainbow thread, all too often. Bunny owners with years more experience than me loseing their bunnies. I feel bad for them, I really do. I see these truely heroic struggles to keep their bunnies, and to do the right thing. I wonder if I measure up to that for my Bert and Petunia. They really don't ask for much, but the deserve the best that I can give.


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## hln917 (Dec 9, 2009)

Oh I completely know how you feel! Baci got his first round of being sick in Sept, that's how I found this great site with all the wonderful help. I remember at the time reading the Rainbow Bridge and crying at every post!For all the sleepness night, worrying and money spent I wouldn't trade it for the world,our reward is the bunny kisses!!


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## Fancy77 (Dec 9, 2009)

From what I have read the you will know something is wrong when your bunnies stop eating. 

Isnt that something how the feelings just sneak sneak up on u some times and boom u r over whelmed with love for them. Bert is your heart bunny and there is nothing wrong with having stronger feelings for one than the other. You connect more with Bert b/c he is more extroverted than Petunia.

I dont think it matters how many years of experience u have as a bunny owner you are giving your buns so much love and good care which makes up for years of experience...and wisdom comes with time. I am sure a lot of the "experienced" rabbit owners still are learning new things.


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## Wabbitdad12 (Dec 9, 2009)

*Fancy77 wrote: *


> I dont think it matters how many years of experience u have as a bunny owner you are giving your buns so much love and good care which makes up for years of experience...and wisdom comes with time. I am sure a lot of the "experienced" rabbit owners still are learning new things.


You never stop learning and loving these furry masters of us.


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## Torchster (Dec 10, 2009)

Bert was being a naughty boy last night! I have been changing the layout of my living room lately, because I am getting some new furniture. Anyway, I used to have a couple of long lamp boxes taped together behind a couch for my bunnies to use. The back of this couch was not straight up and down, but at an angle. So even if I put right up to the wall, there was still a space at floor level for them get behind that couch. Perhaps not a big deal, but I have a couch that is part recliner - because of that, they way it was made...the back of the couch isn't a solid piece of fabric. Actually, where it reclines on either end of the couch, there are gaps for when you have it in recliner mode. Because of that, the bunnies can actually get inside my couch. I really don't want bunnies inside my couch. The can get ON the couch, but inside is a no no. Not to mention that if I were to accidently recline the couch with them in there...god knows what could happen with all the mechanics in there! So with these boxes in place behind the couch, the can get back there, but they have to stay inside the boxes, where they are safe. Plus, inside the box, they can't chew at carpet or the couch itself. Win Win.

Anyway, the new couch has a straight back to it...so i just put it up against a wall, and it is good to go. I moved the old couch to a temporary location until I get some new chairs that I ordered 237 years ago (another story). I still use the old couch, for now, so I had just moved it to a temporary location. Sure enough, Bert saw his chance. I'm sitting there minding my own business watching TV and I feel this funny vibration in the couch...Hmmm...then it dawns on me. I see Petunia eating hay in their box in the living looking at me, so innocently. But no Bert. Yep, he is in the couch. So I coax him out and thankfully I had kept their old tube, in case I needed it.

So Bert takes his bribe for getting out of the couch, and I go to work moving the couch so I could position this box tunnel behind the couch and while I am trying to get everything in place...Bert takes one look at me...one look at the couch which isn't quite in place...makes a bee line for the inside of the couch. So I bribe him out again.

I got mad at Bert and tried to shoo him out of the way. But now that I think about, it was really probably Petunia who put him up to this. She was probably telling Bert, the trusting sole that he is, that there was cool stuff in the couch. In order to get Bert out of the couch, I had to bribe him with part of a Wheat Thin. They hear my hand rustling around inside a box, and they come running from where ever they are. Of course I can't give Bert a bribe, without giving Petunia some too. So she gets Bert in trouble, she looks like an angel and still get treats. She is a sneaky one that Petunia.

Anyway, finally got mad enough a Bert that he got locked in his cage until I could finish my little project and keep him out of the couch. Some left over card board...duct tape...and one tunnel for the bunnies, one couch they can't get into, for now. They can sit on it all they want to, just don't want him in it.


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## hln917 (Dec 10, 2009)

Just like a girl to get the guys in trouble! :biggrin2:


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## Torchster (Dec 11, 2009)

Da kids were pretty good last night, until Bert decided that we wanted some face time. My old couch has these side coushins (sp?) that flip over to reveal a compartment to put stuff, like remotes. Bert jumped up to say hi. I knew what was going to happen, and I tried really hard to get the side coushin before it flipped over (with him on it), but too late and over he went. He wasn't hurt, but he wasn't happy about it either. He was looking at me like, dude, I was just coming by to say Hi and this is the thanks I get??? I had to put down my computer and give him some quality time before bed. He just wanted to say.


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## Torchster (Dec 12, 2009)

Now it is to the point where I wonder if I should be a bunny owner at all. Now it is Petunia's turn. She doesn't appear to be eating. I have been trying to give her some symethicone (sp?). She just freezes and lets stuff run our of her mouth.

This is really getting old, really freaking #@@#[email protected]#$ old. I am failing at rabbit husbandry, badly. I am trying so freaking hard and getting no where, freaking no where. I've tried so hard, I've spent so much money, I've done so much research, I've worked on bunny proofing my home, I made them a cage by hand...what do I have to do??? WHAT FREAKING MORE DO I HAVE TO DO?

I'm pretty much getting to the end of my rope.


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## Myia09 (Dec 12, 2009)

I am sorry you feel that way.
I have noticed even with the best care, things happen.
I hope Petunia gets better.

Best Wishes.


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## Torchster (Dec 14, 2009)

I am a little worried about my Petunia. She hasn't been feeling well this weekend. I think it is a diet issue. Seems to be fine in the mornings, but in the evenings she doesn't seem to be up to her old self. They have seen some pretty big changes in their diet recently. I had been giving them lots of carrot in the mornings, and lots of pellets in the evening. I believe that this diet helped contribute to Bert molar spurs. They were not eating as much hay as they should have been because of all the other stuff that they got. I have really cut down on the carrots and pellets and they have been eating more hay. Bert seems to adjusting just fine. I think that Petunia might be getting an upset tummy as I struggle to change their breakfast greens. I have swtiched to breakfast greens being romain lettuce, flat parsley, and cliantro. They never got much cliantro before and I am wondering if that doesn't agree with Petunia? I had to separate them, so I could monitor Pentunia more closely (I hate to do this). She had a full litter box, had eaten all her pellets and some hay this morning; so I put them back together. Tonight if she isn't feeling well again, I guess I will have to go back to square one with breakfast.

I really need to get a scale to monitor my bunnies weight!

And, I must say that the holiday banner makes me kind of sad. I have to give Jade all the credit in the world for helping her bunny with head tilt, but it does make me kind of sad to see. I'm torn between seeing that bunny with head tilt, which makes me sad, and knowing that Jade is doing such a wonderful job taking care of her bunny and that bunny has a truely wonderful home and a loving family.

I checked on getting my buns some of the 3rd cut from Oregon. I think that is Kleenmama (name?) Wow, the shipping to DC is more expensive than the hay. As much as I love my bunnies, after almost a $1000.00 for Berts molar thing (not to mention tounge ulcers), I have to find a different source. I still have a fair amount of the 50 pounds of Oxbow that I got this summer, so it isn't too big of deal yet.


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## Fancy77 (Dec 14, 2009)

WOW lots going on by you, maybe going back to square one with Petunia would be the best maybe just hay and pellets. 

Do u have a local feed store?? I get my hay from there. It is less expensive that the online stuff, I cant justify when shipping is more that the product myself.


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## Torchster (Dec 14, 2009)

I don't know if there are feed stores near DC - I can plenty of crap from around here, but no feed.

I sent an e-mail to a local rescue about getting a third bun. I contacted this rescue before about their agency and never heard from them, I don't think that I will hear much back, but ya never know? I don't hold out much hope for getting a third to bond with my two, but ya never know.


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## Torchster (Dec 15, 2009)

Well now, that was unexpected. I got a pretty high and mighty response from the rescue that I sent an inquiry too. I tried to give them some information about my bunnies, and to give them a heads up on Bert. I didn't sugar coat things. Bert doesn't always play well with other bunnies and I that I thought Bert would be a tough bond. And I made it clear that I was not in any way attempting to force a bond...just trying to find someone that Bert might get along with. As a matter of fact I stated that I was not interested in attempting to force a bond and spent a paragraph talking about Bert. To sum up their answer, (I was going to insert a quote here - but that is unfair, I don't think that the writer of this e-mail intended it to be published), go somewhere else.

That wasn't all that they had to say, to be fair-but it really doesn't get any better. Actually I am very offended by their e-mail in gerenal. I had heard that the rescues in the greater DC area are pretty fragmented, and it is a real tragedy that the individuals involved can't get past their petty personal differences for the greater good of these little fuzzy little bundles of love.

I dunno now, I guess that a 3rd bunny is out of the question. That is too bad. All I was attempting to do, was give a third bunny a good home.


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## Fancy77 (Dec 15, 2009)

It seems like that is what u want tho (a 3rd bunny) What if they could not get a bond?? would u still want another bun even if it is in a separate cage??


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## Torchster (Dec 15, 2009)

It would be nice to have a third...but ONLY if they are bonded trio. My bunnies only get out time from their room from about 7:30-11:00 on week nights, and I don't want to divide that time amongst various bunnies. I know that various others here do it amongst the many bunnies that they have (more power to them), but for me, I just wouldn't feel comfortable. Everyone has to get along, or I will just stick with my Bert and Petunia.

Not that anyone else has to do things this way, but this is the way I want to do things.


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## Fancy77 (Dec 15, 2009)

Nothing wrong with how u want things set up. We all have are own way of doing things that make things easier, nothing wrong with that


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## Torchster (Dec 16, 2009)

Christmas came early for my babies!!! I got my shipment from the Busy Bunny.

Here are some pics.

I put a new chew ball in Berts dinner ball on top of his pellets...I don't think that he was thrilled.






Petunia wasn't too thrilled with her ball...hmmm





Bert and his new shoe





Bert tossing around his new wicker carrot.





Another one with his carrot. You can also see some of the other stuff I got home. I got him a giant ball to have fun with.





THIS WICKER CARROT MUST DIE.





Merry Christmas my little babies...Merry Christmas.


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## Fancy77 (Dec 16, 2009)

OMG did u rob Michael's Craft Store or what that looks like bunny heven


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## Torchster (Dec 16, 2009)

The people at the Busy Bunny love it when I call, lets just put it that way.


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## RosemaryVanDeuren (Dec 16, 2009)

*Torchster wrote: *


> Christmas came early for my babies!!! I got my shipment from the Busy Bunny.
> 
> Here are some pics.
> 
> I put a new chew ball in Berts dinner ball on top of his pellets...I don't think that he was thrilled.


Ha! I love this one. GREAT pics. So fun! I love seeing bunnies discover new toys with varying levels of approval! ;p


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## Wabbitdad12 (Dec 16, 2009)

They were probably really excited about their new stuff, they just weren't going to show it front of you though! Silly buns, looks like stuff my buns would love.


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## Torchster (Dec 20, 2009)

Well, I got caught a little unprepared. My bunnies will probably run out of greens before I can get to the store again. I have enough hay and pellets for my babies, but they might have to go a day or two with out greens. My car sure is not going anywhere!


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## Wabbitdad12 (Dec 21, 2009)

Oh no car troubles?


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## Torchster (Dec 22, 2009)

Just all the snow won't let me get the car out. No big deal to me. The went a day without greens, they just got some pellets instead. One day shouldn't be any big deal. They got some this morning. They seemed just fine. 

Although Petunia doesn't want to come out of the room (they have their own room) much lately. I think that it is because dad is here visiting. I think that he is 1/2 deaf. I know that when I come home from work it seems he has the TV loud enough for people in the next state over to hear it. I think that Petunia (who isn't all that outgoing to begin with) doesn't like all the loud noise. She passes the treat test and I've seen her drink and eat hay, so I think she is just scared of all the noise.


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## Wabbitdad12 (Dec 23, 2009)

Thats right your area got hit with a lot of snow. I hope you enjoy the holidays with your dad.


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## Torchster (Dec 28, 2009)

Well, we all survived Christmas...dad is only here a few more days, Thank God. 3 weeks is just too long, way too long. He drives me nuts with the buns. The buns and I just have a way of doing things, and he really doesn't seem to care. He doesn't understand the idea bunny proofing and lets the buns out with doors wide open to rooms that they can't go into (no matter how many times I've told him to always close the doors). God knows how many treats he has given them...UGH. Just leave them alone.

Found a new supplier for hay. I decided to get some bailed hay that this bunny person had (it's not just some farmer but a person who has several buns and just sells hay on the side). It appears to be Orchard Grass. My Buns don't appear to be big fans. I've been mixing it with the left over Oxbow stuff I have. They have been going out of thier way just to eat the oxbow stuff. May have to go back to oxbow. I just wish I could get some second cut or something like that. Shipping just won't happen...I'm never home when UPS comes around, that and the cost. Oxbow isn't the worst stuff, just too stems that my buns pick out and leave everywhere.

May be getting a third bun. Don't know yet. Have to get my buns checked out first. Want my vet to have a good look at their teeth to make sure Bert is doing ok and Petunia doesn't have any issues.

Happy Holidays all!


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## SweetSassy (Dec 28, 2009)

Looks like the bunnies are having fun with their new toys! How cute!!


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## Torchster (Dec 28, 2009)

Oh - and that 'boot' you see in the pictures...well all that was left this morning was the sole of that boot. The star is missing a few points. That giant ball...vanished. Don't konw where the candy cane went at the moment. The faux carrot has escaped largely undamaged, strangely enough.


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## SweetSassy (Dec 28, 2009)

Lol. They are enjoying themselves then.


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## Fancy77 (Dec 30, 2009)

LMAO i love how things r going by u


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## Torchster (Jan 4, 2010)

My buns seemed to have a good new years. I was home alot so they got plenty of run time. I will probably have to re-do their cage some, the have done a pretty good job on some of the boxes. They have vet check for the 16th to make sure they are doing OK.
Petunia still isn't too warm to me. I've been trying to handle her once a day to see if she will tolerate that better. I just pick her up, walk around for about a minute with her. Then I sit down on the couch and let her jump from my lap on her own accord. She always head for the corner under the table. She will come back for treats (she always gets a treat for being picked up)...but she still seems pretty skiddish. I guess this is as far as we will get. Ah well, I still love my baby girl.
Bert, well, is Bert. Enough said.


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## Fancy77 (Jan 4, 2010)

Glad to hear u and the buns r doing ok and New Years went well


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## Torchster (Jan 7, 2010)

Well, I'm still on the path to making it a trio. I don't know if I will actually get all the way to the end of the path, but I am on the path none the less. I'm taking my buns to get their semi annual check up on the 16th and if everyone is happy and healthy, I will go from there.

The agency I am working with seems like a bunch of nice folks. The only thing that gives me pause is their selection of buns. Boy, does that sound terrible! What a good adopter I am!?! Anyway, mostly what they have are dutch and what they call 'American's'. Its a rescue, these are all mixed breeds so it is difficult to tell what they are really. I would like to get a lop. Who knows really, its more about who will put up with Bert da Boss, than what I want anyway.


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## Fancy77 (Jan 7, 2010)

LOL that made me laugh


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## kahlin (Jan 7, 2010)

Well....when searching for buns I've been reluctant to take on certain breeds. I'm a lop person myself. 

Before I got 'the brat', I thought he was *so* ugly. But he was causing trouble in his cage and my husband was like, 'we'll take that one'. And he was a lot of fun.

Then, back in September I was looking for a bunny to heal my heart and be a friend to Finley. I was encouraged to consider Behr. And again, I thought he was *so* ugly...but I heard his stories and was convinced that dutches are great bunnies. So I went for it...and man, this boy is a handful. He makes me laugh all of the time.

So all of that to say that sometimes breeds will surprise you.

But another disclaimer...Neither Finley or J.Behr are lops. And I'm a lop person. So it didn't feel like my family was 'whole'...as a result, when I heard about Zayne (my new lop bun) I felt compelled to get her.

So really, there are two lessons....all bunnies are great, and you can end up with more than originally planned.


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## Wabbitdad12 (Jan 8, 2010)

*kahlin wrote: *


> So really, there are two lessons....all bunnies are great, and you can end up with more than originally planned.


Oh, boy don't I know it!


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## Torchster (Jan 8, 2010)

We will see what happens. I'm not even sure if I will get a third bun at the moment. I don't really have space for anymore than that. My buns do get a room. 1/2 room for supplies and 1/2 room for buns. But I don't want to have to separate buns into cages. I just like the setup I have...

Well kinda. I am thinking about do some slight modification to the bun room. I wish I could find it again, I saw something that someone did with a book shelf. It had ramps from one shelf to the next (so the bunnies could go up and down), and they had put nic panels up and hinged them so humans could get to any floor they needed too.

I'll have to look into this more. I have concerns about getting any kind of treated wood, paint or otherwise, because I don't want my kids snacking on varnish.


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## Torchster (Jan 11, 2010)

Well I turned in the adoption form, but I didn't fill in which bun I was interested in getting. I didn't do that for two reasons, 1) none of the buns currently on their website interested me (they mostly have Dutch buns) and 2) I think this decision is really up to Bert and Petunia. So we shall see.


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## kahlin (Jan 11, 2010)

That sounds like a good plan. Dutchies aren't for everyone. I didn't like the looks of them until I got Behr. Now I think he's really cute....and he's got a lot of energy!


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## hln917 (Jan 11, 2010)

*kahlin wrote: *


> That sounds like a good plan. Dutchies aren't for everyone. I didn't like the looks of them until I got Behr. Now I think he's really cute....and he's got a lot of energy!


I admit when I first saw Baci, a dutch, I didn't find anything remotely cute about him. Fortunately I didn't go with my first instinct.He has been such an entertainingbun, I'd do anything forhim. Not sure about other dutches but he's got a great personality. You would thinkhe's a dog and a very loyal one also!


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## Wabbitdad12 (Jan 12, 2010)

Dutchies are sweet.


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## Torchster (Jan 19, 2010)

Well, I took my bunnies to see the vet on Saturday for their semi-annual checkup and the got a pretty good grade from the Vet. I have been weighing my babies and they may be losing a little wieght. However, the number was so small that it could be due to a number of things, different scale at the vets office, natural variations in wieght through out the day, so it wasn't a major concern. The could still be adjusting to the orchard grass (from store bought timothy) hay that I had recently done, or from the decrease in pellets that I had recently done. He said that they looked healthy and didn't see any teeth issues.
Now, do I take the plunge on the third?


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## kahlin (Jan 19, 2010)

That's only something you can answer. Would you be prepared/willing to accept a third should the bond not work out? That's a huge part of it.


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## Torchster (Jan 19, 2010)

Well, part of the deal is that the bunny has to bond with my two. I am willing to work with a rescue to give a bunny a good home (at least I think that I will provide, and have provided a good home to my two babies), but that bun has to bond with my current pair. I am not going to a rescue and saying that I want bun X and walking out the door with said bunny.

Instead I am trying to work with a rescue to find the right bun. That means that I surrender some choice in the matter. I feel that I can broadly say that I don't want a lion head or angora, or perhaps I would like a larger breed, say a New Zealand or Flemish (if they had any). But I don't get to pick out a specific bun. What I would like is a slightly larger breed, different coloring then my current buns (so that I can tell them apart), just not an angora or lion head-but most importantly gets along with current buns.

So, while they might have a large selection of buns, I will narrow it down somewhat with my request...they will take the ones left and see which (if any) get along with my buns...then hopefully a third.


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## Torchster (Jan 21, 2010)

I might - time permitting, meet with a rescue this weekend on getting a third bun. Who knows? I'm in no hurry to get a third. I'd like to have three, but I want the right three more than anything. I'm not going to just put any bun in with my babies and hope for the best. When I actually get to talk with the people at the rescue, I will know more.

Actually I kind of wonder if they know what I really want. I have tried to be pretty explicit that I want the right bun for my bunnies and that is the most important thing, but I kind of wonder if that message has gotten thru?


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## Torchster (Jan 22, 2010)

Well, I haven't heard anything in a few days on the new bun front. They sent me an e-mail on Wednesday about getting together this weekend, but not a peep since then. Ah well, the most important thing is the right bun, not just any bun quickly.

On another front, Petnuia came up a groomed me for a second last night. She only licked my clothes for a second, but she has never done that before! I see it as a major break through. If she thinks I have a treat, she will come over and sniff, but if a treat isn't forth coming she is gone. But last night, while I was spending some quality time with Bert, she came over and a licked my clothes for a second. I was really shocked! I figured that she was just looking for treats. I'd tried to give her a quick pet, but she wanted nothing to do with that (never has).

Maybe after MONTHS and MONTHS of work I'm finally getting thru to my baby girl.

My buns have more or less free roam when I home and I will often make some time to spend on the floor with them at their level. Usually Bert will come over and we will spend some time together. Me petting him, him grooming me. Usually Petunia is around. I encourage her to come over and I show her what I am doing with Bert, but she just watches from afar. I hope she will continue to come over and say hi in the future and this isn't a one and done occurance.


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## kahlin (Jan 22, 2010)

Wow, that is a major breakthrough! I'm really excited for you.


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## Wabbitdad12 (Jan 23, 2010)

Thats great to hear about Petunia!


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## Torchster (Jan 25, 2010)

Well, I took the plunge. My babies are the at the home of the one of the people from the rescue doing the bonding. The house is kind of quiet and sad without my babies. I miss them. But they are with someone who is much more of an expert on bonding than I. Plus they are in neutral territory, which is better for bonding.

But I miss my babies.

Bert wasn't near as aggressive as I thought he would be, but the first couple of buns didn't work out. Petunia seemed to take the worst of it, she got mounted a lot, lost some fur - but there weren't any skin breaks.

I don't have any pics. The new ones name is Popeye. He is a little bit bigger than my buns, but not too bad. My buns are just shy of 5 pounds. He is probably just over five pounds. You can tell he is bigger, but its not that much of a difference.

With any luck, I will get everyone home on Friday. Then I will have my trio and be done.


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## kahlin (Jan 25, 2010)

That's exciting. I hope it works out for you.


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## Wabbitdad12 (Jan 25, 2010)

I hope all the bunny's are getting along.


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## Torchster (Jan 25, 2010)

I got an update on my new trio. They seem to be getting along fine. It sounds like there is lots of grooming going on. I still miss my kids tho.


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## Wabbitdad12 (Jan 26, 2010)

Its funny how easily you can use to having rabbits around the house.


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## myheart (Jan 26, 2010)

I just finished reading your blog. Sounds like you are one dedicated bunny-dad!!! Good for you!!!

Best of luck with your new trio! I do hope they all bring you so much joy. Don't forget a pic or two of your new bun and the group snuggled together.

myheart


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## Torchster (Feb 1, 2010)

Well, my buns came home last Friday. All 3 of them. It was nice to have my babies back. I am keeping them in the hallway for now with all the doors closed and baby gate up. Its as close to neutral terf I can come up with. I could lock them in the bath room, but with the door closed, I wouldn't be able to see what is going on, this way I can peek down the hall way to see what they are up to.

They are eating a lot of hay and drinking a lot of water, which is a good sign. I'm surprised at how much they eat and drink, but maybe I was just so used to Bert and Petunia that the change to 3 has caught me off guard.

Popeye seems to be adjusting well. He is more of a lover. If I am near him, he will let me pet him all I want, but he won't cover over for any. That will just take time.

Yesterday, I let them out around the living room to give them some play time. Popeye was just exploring everything (and doing some chinning). Bert and Petunia were just making sure everything was the say they left it. I did see Petunia chasing Popeye around the living room. I think it was more a game of tag than anything else. It was good to see them run around.

After I put them back, I did see Bert start chasing around Popeye and mounting him. No major fights, but after awhile I got in their area with Bert and put a stop to it. Bert seemed to get the message that enough was enough and stopped bothering Popeye.

Tonight I plan to let them in their old room for awhile. This will be the big test. I think that Bert and Petunia see the living room and hallway as everyone's space, but I think that they see the bunny room as theirs. I only really go in there to clean and stuff like that. So this will be Popeyes first time on their terf.

Hopefully things will go well over the next few days. I will let them in their room for longer and longer periods of time - until they can just be in there.

Maybe tonight I will remember to take some picks.


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## Fancy77 (Feb 1, 2010)

Well I'll be..I havent gotten notifications on your thread. SO I am very happy that u decided to have a trio. I know how u were on the fence about that decision. 

PICS PLEASE!!!!


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## Torchster (Feb 2, 2010)

I took some pics of my babies (I really need to get a real camera!). Ok I tried to take pictures of everyone, but ended up with pics of my new bun. Bert really had no interest in the camera-except to run away.

Here is the new one. He came named Popeye. I don't know if I will change it or not. He has a spot over one eye. Actually his eyes are two different colors - but you would never be able to tell with my iphone.






Here is one where Petunia was wondering what I was up to.





Another pic of Petunia and Popeye. You can see that he is a bit bigger.





One last pic of my baby.





He is growing on me. They are getting along pretty well. I let them out for a little while today.

Time for bed.


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## Fancy77 (Feb 2, 2010)

OH thx for sharing they r looking so nice Popeye is a cute name


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## Wabbitdad12 (Feb 2, 2010)

Popeye is a really cute bunny.


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## Torchster (Feb 4, 2010)

I'm surprised by how much more food and water a 3-some goes through than when I just had Bert & Petunia. Ah well.

Last night I put them all into their cage set up, no more neutral space or anything like that. They seem to do just fine! I don't think that Popeye has learned that he can go up into some of the higher areas, I think he just likes being on the floor.

I do have to work on his litter box habbits, he is a little messy at the moment. But other than that, he is a good bun.


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## Wabbitdad12 (Feb 4, 2010)

*Torchster wrote: *


> I'm surprised by how much more food and water a 3-some goes through than when I just had Bert & Petunia. Ah well.


Just imagine15 rabbits!


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## Torchster (Feb 5, 2010)

Wabbitdad - um NO WAY!!!


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## Myia09 (Feb 5, 2010)

Petunia is so adorable, she steals my heart


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## Wabbitdad12 (Feb 5, 2010)

*Torchster wrote: *


> Wabbitdad - um NO WAY!!!



the good thing is I have a nice compost pile and my flowers love the bunny poo, which I have a generous supply of.

I am glad things are going well with the bunny's. Has to make you happy seeing them all enjoying each others company.


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## Torchster (Feb 9, 2010)

Things are kind of crazy in DC. Haven't left the house since last Friday. Kind of going crazy. Glad I got some hay last thrusday! Maybe I will do more of an update once the cabin fever wears off.


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## Fancy77 (Feb 9, 2010)

LOL Cabin Fever SUX I have it now too. I am just itching to get out of here.


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## Torchster (Feb 12, 2010)

Finally made it out of the house, first time in a week. The trains in DC are still all messed up, but what can you do???

I come from the rescue side of things, so I don't have much good to say about breeders. I suppose if you are 'showing' buns...but I think that shows, be it dogs or cats or rabbits or pretty much anything is pretty dumb. I mean purebred dogs were bred that way to give you a dog that did something, like herd animals, or help go hunting or something like that. Do we still have that many working animals?? I suppose police dogs and rescue dogs. But I'm not sure if being a purebred animal is required for that. Even people shows, um "pagents", are a pretty dumb idea. Although watching them answer questions can be somewhat entertaining.

Anyway, I don't go posting negative stuff elsewhere, so I figure that I can respectfully post my view in my own blog.

Anyway - I did read about Cyrano. I was really pulling for the little guy. I was hopeing he would make it. I'm pretty sad now that I found out that he didn't make it. I hope that he is in a better place now.

Time to go hug the bunnies.


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## Fancy77 (Feb 12, 2010)

So how do u really feel about pure bred animals...LMAO what about the toy breds?? toy poodles were bread small so they could b hand warmers...too funny


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## Torchster (Feb 16, 2010)

Well, the three of them seem to be getting along well, but I need to work on Popeyes litter box habits. Looks like I will have to do some reading on that.


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## Torchster (Feb 17, 2010)

Well Popeye seems to be adjusting well to his new surroundings. I am always surprised by home much food and water the three some goes through. Its not breaking the bank or anything, but it is surprising.

Popeye is more of a lover than either Petunia or Bert. If it suits him, Bert may stick around for a minute for some petting - but usually he has other stuff to tend to. Petunia has never been much for human interaction, unless it involves food, and that is ok. But Popeye will pretty much stop anything that he is doing for a little affection. He will stick around for a while too. I try and make sure to spend some quality time with Bert, but Popeye will usually coming nosing around.

I gave them all a wiegh in last night and I was surprised to see that they all weigh about the same. Although it is close, Popeye is the lightest of the three. At least to my eye, he looks to be the biggest...hope my new scale isn't broke! 

I am somewhat concerned about my buns weight. They seemed to have lost some weight since last December. Bert was at about 4.1 pounds and Petunia at 3.9. I forgot to write down what the vet had when I took them in January (darn it). Last night Bert came in at 3.6 and Petunia at 3.8. They both look healthy, but since they are a mix breed - it makes it difficult to tell what they 'should' weigh. They both did get a pretty dramatic change in diet, with me cutting their pellets by about half. They have always had all they hay they can stuff in their face. But Bert has lost a 1/2 a pound in two months - which is a pretty large number considering he only came in at 4 pounds to begin with. I think that I will weigh them every two weeks to make sure he doesn't get too low. They both seem very active, they eat plenty of hay, so I'm not sure if this is something to worry about or not.


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## Fancy77 (Feb 17, 2010)

I am happy to hear one of the 3 are cuddly I know u have wanted that. Why did u change their diet??? I bet u can call the vet and ask what the weight was in Jan. mine keeps that on file.


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## Torchster (Feb 17, 2010)

I changed their diet in hopes of taking better care of their teeth. There are stories about people who have had rabbits with teeth issues feeding their rabbits less pellets and more hay and then having less trips to the vet. While there is nothing scientific, perhaps eating more hay and less pellets will mean more teeth wear and less trips to the vet to have their teeth trimmed. At least that is the hope. It can't hurt.


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## Fancy77 (Feb 18, 2010)

OH i get it...thx for clarifying!!!!


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## Torchster (Feb 19, 2010)

Well, I guess its been a few weeks, so time for another problem. Ugh. I noticed some crusty spots underneath Popeye's chin. With three rabbits living together, its hard to tell, but it seems that hay consumption has gone down too. Popeye seems to be eating greens just fine, and goes after the pellets, but I am worried that Popeye is developing dental issues too. I have an appointment for him tomorrow at 9:00 am. Last time with Bert it cost me like 800 bucks once all was said and done. I'm glad my baby Bert is better, but I hope that this one isn't so expensive!!!

Last night, for the first time, I also noticed some aggressive behavor out of Petunia. She was mounting Bert. So was going after him pretty hard too. I had to work pretty hard to separate them. Normally I only have to move in Petunia's direction and she will move away from me, but not last night. I worry that some bonds may be breaking down.


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## Fancy77 (Feb 19, 2010)

Oh no I hope they dont break there bonds...


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## Torchster (Feb 21, 2010)

Well, Petunia seems to have calmed down a bit. I hope it stays that way.

I don't know what I am going to do about Popeye's heart issue. I'm still doing some research. I probably have another vet visit in the near future with all kind of tests..ugh.

Speaking of Popeye, I was lying on the couch watching the Olympics. Popeye came out of the bunny room and I invited him to join me on the couch. He jumped up and kind of sat down next to me so I was petting him...until...I realized ....he just peed on me and the couch. Little turd!!! Let's just say that out time for the bunnies is over with and they are back in the bunny room.


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## Fancy77 (Feb 22, 2010)

OH GROSS i bet that was a warm sensation u didnt like


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## Torchster (Feb 23, 2010)

Well, I have a vet visit for Thursday where the vet is going to throw every test that they have at him. I hope that there is something that they can do for him.


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## Myia09 (Feb 24, 2010)

Ugh I hate it when I get accident pees. It most happens when were chillin on the bed, although now I think they both know not to do it!

Good luck with the vet visit!


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## Fancy77 (Feb 24, 2010)

GOOD LUCK!!!!


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## Torchster (Feb 25, 2010)

What a bad day. I was told by the vet that Popeye has congestive heart failure.

If ya want the details - ya can go here..
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=54808&forum_id=16
(if that works)

Pretty hard day. Maybe I will write more later.


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## Fancy77 (Feb 25, 2010)

SOOOOOOO Sorry...


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## Torchster (Feb 26, 2010)

Living with this new reality with Popeye is going to be difficult. This going to take lots of adjustments. He is going to need meds and the morning and at night. I'm really no good with meds. I'm also no good with mornings either.

I've had him about a month and I got this bomb shell dropped on me. I'm still pretty angry about things. I'm angry at the rescue that I got him from that said he had 2 checkups before I got him, and that he was OK. I'm mad that two previous exams didn't pick this up. I'm mad that this wonderful little bunny has to deal with this. I'm mad that I have to deal with this. I don't want to deal with this.

The reason I got Popeye was that if anything happened to my Bert or Petunia there would be another bun there to help them through the loss. I guess that is not to be the case.

I'm also sad, so very very sad.

But now is time to focus on the next step. I have to figure out what I can do for Popeye.


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## Myia09 (Feb 26, 2010)

I am so sorry 

I would be angry at the rescue too. Maybe you can talk to them?


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## AngelnSnuffy (Feb 27, 2010)

Honey, I'm so very sorry. I would be mad/sad too. I was. But, this is too soon. Man, Jesus must have a plan for you. Don't worry, I'll help you. I was no good with meds either, had never had to do it before, but I did okay. Oh! The most important part is that like I said in the other thread, I didn't have this forum then...:shock:

You have us!


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## Torchster (Feb 27, 2010)

This whole Popeye thing gets...well worse. I've been in contact with the rescue that I got Popeye from. I'm not really mad at them. These rescues do the best that they can with almost no support. They have been very nice about things. They had no faith and have had bad experiences with the vet I went too. Although they have no idea about any of Popeye's medical history, they are very concerned about what the doc had to say. They say that they had Popeye fixed recently and they don't understand how he could have survived the operation if his heart was in such bad shape. They also just don't see the behavoral changes that they expect to see in Popeye that should be there with severe case of heart failure.

They are going to take Popeye to a vet that they trust (although I am going to pay cause I know that they have no money for this kind of stuff). The vet they want to go to is kind of far away from me and very difficult to get to for me - so I am going to pay for the visit and they are going to do the transport. The meds won't be in until next Wednesday anyway.

I'm really torn here. On the one hand I want my Popeye to be OK. On the other hand I don't want to think that they could have screwed up so big. I just don't know what to think- things are kind of up in the air and all over. Ugh.

If the vet is wrong and Popeye is OK, then I've spent like $1500 on bills and meds - but Popeye is OK. I guess that is the most important thing and that I was I really want, but I find it hard to believe that they could be that wrong.


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## AngelnSnuffy (Feb 28, 2010)

Please post this in Infirmary.

I hope things look up. Hopefully, all will be good.:hug:


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## Fancy77 (Feb 28, 2010)

GOOD luck..on one had a bad screw up by that vet might turn out to b a good thing for you with a nice healthy bunny


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## Torchster (Mar 1, 2010)

Well, the rescue came by to pick up Popeye. They are taking him in for a second opinion tomorrow...I hope that he is OK. Bert in particular seems to miss Popeye. Petunia not so much, I don't think that she is a big fan. But they seem to get along ok. I'll something tomorrow afternoon.


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## AngelnSnuffy (Mar 1, 2010)

ray:


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## Fancy77 (Mar 1, 2010)

good luck


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## Torchster (Mar 1, 2010)

Cross post from the infirmy thread...this is about all I can write at the moment.

The second vet that the rescue took him to confirmed all of the findings. His temp was only 95, so he has probably taken a turn for the worse. They said that he might not survive the trip home, so he is staying at the vets overnight.

My worst nightmare has come true.


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## Fancy77 (Mar 1, 2010)

I am praying for Popeye...so very sorry this is happening with you now... :hug:ray:


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## Torchster (Mar 1, 2010)

What another long and difficult day. Its getting really hard. So many ups and downs.


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## Fancy77 (Mar 2, 2010)

:hugsquish:


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## Torchster (Mar 2, 2010)

Well - Popeye should be home tonight. The vet said that he is doing much better after some sub-q and some warming. We will have to live with heart condition. It will never get any better, the best that we can hope for is to slow the progression of the disease. The meds come in a couple of days.

Now the hard part begins.


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## Torchster (Mar 3, 2010)

I finally got Popeye home tonight. He appears to be OK. Now I have to make several adjustments. He is going to need meds morning and night.

But, I have new issue. The bond between Popeye and Petunia seems to have broken down. I'd notice some minor issues between them last week, but I didn't think it was a big deal. Bert and Popeye were like, hey dude, sup? Oh nothing and you? But Petunia was doing a lot of chasing and with Popeye's heart issue, I thought that I needed to put a stop to it.

I gave them 15 minutes of the spin cycle on top of the dryer and put them in the most neutral place I have that bunny safe. I fenced off part of the hallway and tried putting them in there after the spin cycle. But she was still chasing him around. I finally decided that they had to be separated. They can all see each other, but there is a x-pen keeping them separated. I have Bert and Popeye together in the hallway...and Petunia in their old cage.

With Popeyes heart, I don't want Petunia chasing him around. I don't think that they were playing tag, I think that Petunia was going after him and he was trying to find place to hide. I've never seen her this aggressive. She has been coming out of her shell as of late, but I can't have this.

Now I have to figure out what to do.


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## AngelnSnuffy (Mar 4, 2010)

I must urge you to post all of this in Infirmary, it's important behavior to need to learn about. 

Hence, what I was going to say:

Often, ifa bonded bun is ill and is rushed off to er or hospital, they eval, they may stay 24 hours, but yes, come home smelling very different, so the bonded bun may freak out for that reason, or I have heard also of buns abandoning their mate if they sense they're ill...


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## Torchster (Mar 8, 2010)

Well, Popeye seems to be doing ok. He is taking his medications very well. Thanks for all the videos. Popeye is much better at takeing meds then Bert.

But any bond between Popeye and Petunia is gone. It makes me very sad. I can put them all in the carrier and give them 15 minutes on top of the dryer on the spin cycle-and pretty much the second that I let them out Petunia is running after Popeye. And its always Petunia chasing after Popeye and never the other way around. Even when they are in the cage together, there is just too much chasing to leave them together.

I'm gonna have to start over at the beginning with them. But as aggressive as Petunia is, I'm not holding out much hope for them re-bonding. I'm even seeing some aggressiveness from Petunia towards Bert, some chasing. But it isn't as bad as with Bert. With Popeye's heart, I just don't want her chasing him around.

It makes me kind of sad to see Petunia locked in her cage by herself and Popeye and Bert getting along so well together. She seems so unhappy. Granted I try and split time, with Bert spending half his time with Petunia and half his time with Popeye - and to be honest, Bert seems happier with Popeye. They lay down together next to each other and some times on top of each other.

I'm gonna have to figure out a way to repair things...I never thought for a second that Petunia would be the one I would have issues with.


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## Fancy77 (Mar 8, 2010)

I am happy to hear Popeye is taking meds well. It is too bad about Petunia tho and maybe if you need help with the bond your rescue will help you...


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## Torchster (Mar 9, 2010)

I let the kids all out together for some run time. Petunia is still chasing Popeye. I just have Popeye come lay down next to me and if Petunia gets to close I just move my hand in her direction and she takes off. She has always been skiddish, so it doesn't take much on my part to get her to move in another direction. Heck all I have to do is act like I am going to pet her.

Bert was on a terror this morning. Must be time to get them some new toys or something.

I went out and bought another 60 some NIC panels this past weekend. Now all I have to do is get some flooring materials. I was going to make one giant cage for my kids, but I will probably have to settle for two smaller because I don't see this issue with Petunia getting any better.


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## AngelnSnuffy (Mar 10, 2010)

Yeah, if you could build one for Popeye to be next to Petunia would be best. Ithink stressing him out with Petunia's aggressions would be too risky to his health. At least if they can see each other through the cage would be best for now. Just my opinion of course as I've dealt with this illness

Give him as much attention as you can. It can turn downhill very fast.The best tip I haveis to listenfor anylabored breathing. I'm sorry to be morbid, but, unfortunately, it's the truth. I had no one to talk to about what to do when it was my bun, as I mentioned, I didn't have this great site yet. Even since, I don't think anyone else has had this issue here.

Please post all your updates in the Infirmary thread. Yours and mine are all we have to go on as far as this disease. Thanks.

Thinking of you guys.:hug:


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## Torchster (Mar 10, 2010)

This is a cross post from the Infirmary thread...

I've pretty much resigned (sp?) myself to the fact the Petunia will never accept Popeye. She seems to do OK when I put them in a carrier...but the second I get them in open space she chases after him. Perhaps the stress of the carrier makes her behave. I've never seen this kind of aggressive behavor out of her before, she is such a timid bunny.

This has really upset the balance at home. My perception is that Bert preffers to be with Popeye over Petunia. I have seen some minor chasing of Bert by Petunia too, but nothing like what she does with Popeye. With Petunia not being one for much human contact, at least she has never really cared for me much...I'm concerned for her. I'm sure I could put Popeye in with Bert and they would be very happy. But that would leave Petunia by herself. She doesn't always come out right away and usually keeps away from me when she does have out time. It would seem to me to be a lonely existence.

It makes me very sad that the trio is not working out. I work so hard try and get a happy trio.


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## Torchster (Mar 10, 2010)

I've in the planning stages for my new cages. I don't like the sound of that though. I don't like the sound of having two cages. I just don't see Petunia giving Popeye a second chance though. I was going to build a big 4 square tall, 4 square wide by 4 square deep NIC cage for all my babies. I guess that I am going to settle for two cages that are 3 by 3 by 3. It will have a ground floor and a second floor. I will put them side by side.

The only thing that I really need to get is some flooring, probably that chloroplast (sp?) stuff.

Looks like I have something to do this weekend.


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## Fancy77 (Mar 11, 2010)

Have fun this weekend with the cages. When I needed more than one i connected them side my side or on top of one another, space issues  

We have a store called Fleet Farm here and I got my coroplast from there for 5.00 a sheet


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## Torchster (Mar 11, 2010)

I've now started to divide up my out time. Little over an hour apiece. Doesn't seem like much time out of their cage.


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## Torchster (Mar 15, 2010)

Wow - my chloroplast (sp??) was 25 bucks a sheet. Ah well.

Anyway, I got a lot of work done on the new cages, but I'm not really happy with the result. I had a small NIC cage that I really only used as a cage when I just had Bert. Since I got Petunia, I put them in their own room and just left the cage open in that room. I would close the door to the room when I wasn't home and the could go in and out of the cage when the wanted to too.

But since Petunia and Popeye donât get alongâ¦I felt the need to make the each their own cage.

Well, their old NIC cage was 3 panels wide by 2 panels deep by 3 panels tall. It has two floors to it. The ground floor was only 1 panel high, but the second floor was two panels high, that way my babies had some room to stretch out. I guess that I had really built that one right. I had got plywood from Home Depot cut to right size that I needed. Each floor was built out of plywood covered by peel and stick tiles. I kind of built the NIC cubes around the floors.

Well, I went big (perhaps too big). I decided to ditch the plywood floors and go for an all NIC and chloroplast design. 3 panels wide, 3 panels tall (I was thinking four but changed my mind), 3 panels deep, each cage has a 2 floors to it. - 2 cages side by side. Well, at that size you really lose your structural stability - or the plywood floors I had provided more than I was aware of.. I had some old wooden rods lying around that Iâve tried to use to stabilize the structureâ¦But Iâm just not lovin this. It isnât going to fall over - but I wouldnât sneeze next to it either.

That was my Sunday.


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## Fancy77 (Mar 15, 2010)

HOLY COW that was a lot more pricey than I wud have thought. They sound like great cages tho


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## Torchster (Mar 30, 2010)

I finished the two side by side cages a while ago. Not exactly thrilled with cageing my babies, but at least I know that they have enough space to move around in.

Petunia nips at Popeye every chance she gets. If is lying next to the NIC panels on the common wall they share, I have seen her try and nip him thru the NIC panels. I used to be able to let them all out for some joint play time. As long as he stayed away from her, everything seemed to be OK. If he got too close, a chase would ensue. But now, if she sees him from across the room, she will drop what she is doing and chase him.

It makes me very sad that I can't have a happy trio. I tried very hard to get one.


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## Fancy77 (Mar 30, 2010)

Hey could u take pics of the buns and the cages??? u torture me with just talking about it


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## Torchster (Mar 30, 2010)

Here is what happened with the cage thingie..

This is the old set up. You can see how I divided the room with the old xpen. And you can see on the far side where I made a little box for them to go up to the window. Its impossible to see, but the window box is inclosed by plexiglass. They can get to the window, but that is all, they can't go anywhere but the box. The ld cage was 3 panels tall by two panels deep and 3 panels across.






This is after I took the old cage apart...mostly.





Things got messy...





And even more messy. I thought that it would be a good idea to try and save the old cage as much as possible (didn't work so well)





Here is the cage almost done. Most of the nic panels are in place, but I haven't put down the cover on the top floor so you can see thru the floor. I have ramp that goes up one set of nic panels to a landing, turns to the side then continues to the second floor. I put the chorloplast (sp) down on the nic panels then used elmers school glue to glue carpet to that for, for traction. Also, you can see the wooden rods I had to put under the second floor for stability...that and thousands of zip ties.





Then the new set up...all done. You can see the cage door is open. That is Popeye on the 2nd floor eating. I use the top of the cages for storage.





This is the cage right next door. This is the lucky cage. It happens to be missing one panel in the bottom back that leads right to the ramp that goes up to the box by the window so they can sun themselves at will, if they are in that cage. The other cage obviously doesn't have feature.





Bert in the cage next door. I love the water jug I got them. Best purchase ever.





Here you can kind of see what the bottom floor looks like. Each ground floor has a dedicated litter box. The top floor litter box has hay in it too.





This is a pic of the bottom floor of the other cage. It has the better litter box. You can also see the ramp that goes up and around to the top floor. The bottom floor is two nic panels tall while the second floor is only one nic panel tall.





This is the set up.


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## Fancy77 (Mar 31, 2010)

WOW that is real nice...U have made my day by FINALLY getting pics posted LMAO


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## Torchster (Apr 10, 2010)

The buns seem to be doing ok. Popeye is intent on getting into trouble for the most part. But that's OK. He is good at taking his meds. I have been trying to give Bert and Petunia some apple sauce via srynge (SP???). Bert doesn't seem to mind, but Petunia wants nothing to do with it. I don't want to think that is only for meds, but maybe some good stuff too! That way I might have a chance if they do get sick.

When I took their weight on the first, they had all gained a little weight, not to much, maybe an ounce or two. I weigh them every two weeks and the have all put on a little weight. Nothing major. The rescue said last time they saw them that they looked a little on the light side.

There are just some things that I can't figure out. When I get together with them and try and do a bonding session - in my tiny little laundry room, Bert is a humping machine. He'd probably go after the washer. Petunia does nothing. Popeye is Mr. Submissive. I let them out of the room and Bert ignores the other two and Petunia is hell bent for leather after Popeye, and not a good way.

Actually, in their cage, the one with Petunia and Bert, sometimes I see Petunia chasing after Bert. I don't know what to make of it. Sometimes I take Bert out for a while to spend some time with Popeye. They seem to get along well together-Bert and Popeye. Sometimes I see little bits of Bert's fur in the cage, but I haven't seen any marks on him-I check him daily. I don't know what to make of Petunia.


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## Fancy77 (Apr 10, 2010)

I think Petunia is a litte Dive lmao


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## kahlin (Apr 10, 2010)

Just catching up on some of your posts. I was out of the loop for a while.

I'm in the bonding process myself to create a happy little trio. So far so good. I hope things speed up though because I may be working at a new job with a lot of new hours in a couple of weeks....and that will cut down on bonding time and it will mean less playtime for all involved unless they are a happy little trio.


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## Torchster (Apr 12, 2010)

Yeah - I'm not too happy about the play time for my buns. By the time I get home, get them their dinner, eat dinner and clean up and stuff, its like 8:00. So I let Popeye and Bert out until about 9:00 or 9:30, then Popeye has to go back in his cage so I can let Petunia out (Bert gets along with both buns so he gets bonus out time) until about 10:30 or 11:00, then its back in their cage. That isn't as much out time as I would like for them. Granted, they have big multi-level NIC cages, but I'd still like them to get more run around time.

I wish I could let them roam more, but Petunia is just too aggressive for Popeye. I want him to get exercise, but she is just after him way too much and won't leave him alone. If he wants to do a bunny 500 or binky or two, that is great! I just worry about his heart condition.

For some reason, things seem to be going worse. Petunia has become even more withdrawn over the last few weeks. She seems to be eating and keeping up her weight, but she has become even more aggressive with Bert and more withdrawn with me (if that was possible). When I would open up her cage at night for out time, she wasn't always the first one out, but she would eventually come out into the living room to check things out. Maybe she would do a couple of laps, or do some remodeling on a box I have for them in the living room. Now, she seems to spend more time in their cage and wants even less to do with me. I could coax her out of her cage with a wheat thin, but she seems less inclined these days. Sure she will take one if I come to her with it, but she doesn't want to seem to come to me to get it. If she does come out to the living room, she doesnât stay long. Lately, if she does come out, Iâve had to hunt her down and pick her up to go back into her cage. I used to have her trained to come running into her cage with the sound of me shaking her wheat thin box. She doesnât come as much to that as she used to.


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## Fancy77 (Apr 13, 2010)

sorry to hear about Ms. Petunia


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## Torchster (Sep 14, 2010)

Its been awhile since Iâve updated my blog. Actually, its been awhile since Iâve been to active on RO. My bunnies are doing fine. Popeye is doing well. His heart condition improved a little bit, probably due to the medicine.



But Iâve been thinking a lot about RO lately. To me, RO has become such a sad place. The bridge is a tuff place to go, always will be. Scone hit me pretty hard. He was such a beautiful bunny, and in such a wonderful situation. It was just so sad.



Then I saw the post in the welcome section by a meat breeder. That made me really mad that anyone on RO should have to feel that person is wanted on RO. We have a banner about saving all the buns in the Vancover situation, and then having to NOT post flaming comments about a meat breeder wanting to join RO?



I have enough problems with the breeders on RO. I am not going to name anyone, isnât my point. But I sometimes go into that section and see the conditions that the buns live in. It makes me cringe. Cage after cage stacked on top of each other, 4 or five high. Iâm sure that the breeders work hard to give everyone food and water every day. Iâm sure they give them high quality food. But, when you have 20 or more buns in the same room, exactly how much time does any bun get out for any kind of exercise? What, the breeder sleeps 4 hours a night and gives each bun 1 hour of run time a day? Really? What kind of social life do these social creatures have in that environment? 



And for what? This is the part that really gets me. For what. To âfurther a lineâ or to make a better Flemish (I use Flemish only because I think that they are a real cool bun and would like to have a larger breed bun someday). People are more than willing to bring a whole litter of buns into this world, keep them in small cages so they can take them to a âshowâ and have some other person vindicate that they were able to breed a good bun. Really, that is a good reason? I mean really?



And I am speaking of the âreasonable breedersâ that I believe are on RO, not the âpuppy millâ breeders who absolutely donât care about the animals at all, only about making a fast buck.



As a member of this community, my membership in it, and what it stands for and what it is; that sayssomething about me tooâ¦and its something that makes me very uncomfortable.


Not that this is the most read blog on RO (probably no one) - but tell me what you think?


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## Wabbitdad12 (Sep 19, 2010)

I hope you figure out what is wrong with Petunia and why she has become so aggressive.

I don't think its fair to judge all breeders by the comments of a few or on stories of irresponsible breeders. Those breeders make me mad also. 

Breeders that I know are very responsible with their rabbits. Believe me there is no money in breeding rabbits to sell them at a rabbit show.Responsible breeders spend far more ontheir rabbits thenthey can on any sale. They love a particular breed or breeds and breed with the intent to keep the breed healthy and going.

Responsible breeders spend a lot of time and effort on keeping their rabbits healthy, which includes keeping the environment in which they live in sanitary, the purchase of quality food and hay. There are many breeds of rabbits that we enjoy today, that if it were not for responsible breeders. Some of these rabbit breedsbeen around for centuries, due to breeders.

There also has been a lot of knowledge gained by the experience of breeders passed on to others that has extended the quality of lifeand saved the lives of many rabbits. The American Rabbit Breeders Association has done a lot to improve the health and welfare of rabbits and encourages its member to act in a professional manner.

Many veterinarians have benefited from the experience of breeders. They have used this information to care for their clients that have rabbits as pets. Vet's don't often run into situations that a breederdoes and has had to overcome. My vet, who is very rabbit savvy, and I will talk about situations he has encountered and see if I have run into a similar situation and what I did to correct it. Most vets are well trained on cats and dogs but often lack knowledge about rabbits. 

I love my rabbits very much. I make sure that every rabbit from a litter goes to a responsible individual and I make sure they understand that for any reason, no matter how long they may have the rabbit I will take it back if they no longer want it or are having trouble caring for it. I only breed my rabbits when I have the room and time to care for them. Breeding rabbits to strengthen a line is a good reason, it ensures healthier rabbits in the future.

Rabbits Online is the only website I have encountered that allows breeders a place to post. One of the things I like about RO is the focus on the health and care of rabbits. Raising rabbits for meat is discouraged, even though many don't like the subject, RO wants those rabbits to live a healthy life, in good sanitary conditions. People who only want to raise rabbits for meat are informed that this is not a site for that and are referred to other sites that focus on it.

RO mods, task force members, admin and others want all rabbits to be well cared for and make a good conscience effort to pass along information so the person can make a knowledgeable decision.

I don't' think it is reasonable to expect a website to agree with each members point of view. There has to be some give and take. If a topic is posted you don't like, you can post a polite comment or ignore it all together. I have encountered many posts that I don't agree with, but I also don't expect everyone to agree with my viewpoint either. The site would be rather boring if that happened.



> As a member of this community, my membership in it, and what it stands for and what it is; that sayssomething about me tooâ¦and its something that makes me very uncomfortable.


If you don't participate in the process of exchanging ideas with people that have viewpoints you don't agree with it is hard to facilitate change. 

In the sentence I have quoted I also like it for another reason. It is in a way how I view the US. I am a member of the US community, (citizen) and what it stands for and what it is, says a something about me too and the offices of President, House of Representatives and Senate do things that make me very uncomfortable. 

However, I don't cancel my membership in the US because of that, I work within the system to voice my concerns as respectfully and politely as possible and continue onward.

Sorry for the long post.


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## Torchster (Sep 20, 2010)

I had started a reply to this...but it got a little long so I will only talk to a couple of points.

Thank you for the response. There is no need to apologize for a long post. Sometimes it takes time to make a reasoned response, such as yours.

âResponsible breeders spend a lot of time and effort on keeping their rabbits healthy, which includes keeping the environment in which they live in sanitary, the purchase of quality food and hay.â Is this the only duty owed by a âresponsible breederâ (to use your term) to the bunnies they breed? I am sure that most any breeder out there spends more money on their buns, than I do on mine. I only have 3, so just by sheer numbers they have to spend more money. But really, is that all there is to being a responsible rabbit breeder? There is nothing more? Sanitary enviroment, and quality food and hay? That is the bar?

Also - We could argue Hobbs or Locke, but taking my âcommunityâ point to an illogical conclusion obfuscates my point. The people who obtain membership in RO and post in RO are members of that community (as opposed to being born into that community). They reflect on that community, as does it on them. Continued membership in RO by definition gives tacit approval to bunnies living in less than ideal situations (to be kind), and RO members must be OK with that. I for one, am not. Perhaps its politically correct to allow everyone possible to be a member and enjoy the fruits of that membershipâ¦but what is it that RO really stands for? Membership? Is it more important to be inclusive or take a stand?

It seems to me, that the RO community is more about getting more members and trying to include as many people as possible. The fact that a meat breeder wasnât told to leave tells me that it would be OK to open up a rabbit recipe section. While perhaps some or many or most or nearly all of the community of RO would find it objectionable, would it be taken down and the poster be told not to post it? Currently as I see it, the answer would be no.



Perhaps I thought that there was something more to RO. What I thought it was when I joined, and what I see it as now, are two different things.


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## TinysMom (Sep 20, 2010)

*Torchster wrote: *


> It seems to me, that the RO community is more about getting more members and trying to include as many people as possible.* The fact that a meat breeder wasnât told to leave tells me that it would be OK to open up a rabbit recipe section.* While perhaps some or many or most or nearly all of the community of RO would find it objectionable, would it be taken down and the poster be told not to post it? *Currently as I see it, the answer would be no.*
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps I thought that there was something more to RO. What I thought it was when I joined, and what I see it as now, are two different things.


Hi! I had a couple of breeders (not moderators) contact me and ask me to read the last couple of posts here and post a reply.

I'm sorry you were upset about seeing an introduction from a meat breeder. However, I think you have the wrong impression about our forum policies and I thought I'd share a few things with you. 

First of all - this forum is not nearly as much about "getting members" as it is about "helping the bunnies". People who have been around here for a while will tell you that one of our main focuses is on HELPING ALL RABBITS...whether they be breeder rabbits or pet rabbits or rabbits in a rescue. This is one reason why we have a rescue section - along with why we have the infirmary and a fairly informative library of articles on rabbit health and behavior.

We're not about the "people" that join - we're about helping the rabbits they live with.

In our forum decorum area (which is frequently mentioned in the rabbitry and other areas) - we have certain rules. Here is a list of some of them:

*Unacceptable Behavior (Subject toWarnings):*

- name calling

- ridiculing of another's opinion

- failure to 'agree to disagree'

- the posting of obviously inflammatorytopics (eg: rabbit meat, breeder vs.animal rights attacks) 

- overly abrasive or negative posts on any topic

- personal vendettas

- 'advertising' or linking other forums or commercialventuresin posts (see Content Rulesfor advertising policies).

Forum Decorum

​Now keeping in mind that we're not about the "people" - but the rabbits - that means that if someone joins who IS a meat breeder - we're not going to shoo them away. What if they can learn something about taking better care of their rabbits? 

They are sent a private message behind the scenes from a moderator informing them of our policies about not DISCUSSING meat breeding - given an address for another forum they might feel more comfortable in for those discussions - and yet - still welcomed to take part in the general discussions.

You would NEVER find a thread welcomed here about sharing rabbit recipes or any other thing....but that doesn't mean we're going to ban someone or tell them to leave.

I would like to point out that we all - as both pet owners - and breeders - have different standards for our rabbits. Let me give you an example...

I currently have six flemish giant does living in my living room/rabbitry/hallway/kitchen/bathroom area. They are free-roaming.

In addition - I have Zeus a flemish giant mix who free-roams our bedroom and master bathroom. 

Would it be wrong of me to say, "oh...if your rabbits aren't free-roaming (because they need LOTS of exercise and interaction)...then you shouldn't be part of this forum because you don't care enough about your rabbits.."? 

At what point do we draw the line? Only owners who let their animals free-roam? Only owners that have NIC cages? Only owners that have less than X rabbits? Only owners who feed hay? Only owners who feed vegetables?

No matter where we draw the line - someone who could probably benefit from the knowledge shared here on RO - would probably be left out.

I'm sorry you were bothered by the introduction from a meat breeder. To be honest with you - I'm glad that they introduced themselves that way because it gave the moderators a "heads up" so we could contact them about our policies for discussion, etc.

And I'm sorry that the idea of breeders and how they cage their rabbits bothers you. That is one reason some folks have pushed before for a "private" sub-forum for the breeders only - but too many of our members enjoy reading about the litters and genetics, etc. This is why we have it as a separate forum so people can choose whether or not to take part.

Good luck in whatever you decide about this forum. I understand where you are coming from - I hope you know that. I would NEVER eat rabbit (at least not knowingly)...

But we're here to help the rabbits - and sometimes that means biting our tongue even if we don't agree with the person.

Peg


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## JadeIcing (Sep 20, 2010)

*Torchster wrote: *


> It seems to me, that the RO community is more about getting more members and trying to include as many people as possible. The fact that a meat breeder wasnât told to leave tells me that it would be OK to open up a rabbit recipe section. While perhaps some or many or most or nearly all of the community of RO would find it objectionable, would it be taken down and the poster be told not to post it? Currently as I see it, the answer would be no.


I could say so much more but no time. I do want to reply to this part. We do say something when people bring up meat rabbits. Things are edited all the time that members don't see. Why? We know not everyone is ok with seeing it. It is in our rules which yes we do make sure people follow. We also send them to places we know will cater to those sorts of discussion. No we don't ask people to leave because we strive to make ALL bunnies have the best life possible. Everyone brings something to the table even if it is what not to do. Closed doors bring nothing good. It stops things from progressing, and with out progress the ones who suffer most are the rabbits.

From our rules....

*Unacceptable Behavior (Subject toWarnings):

*- name calling

- ridiculing of another's opinion

- failure to 'agree to disagree'

*- the posting of obviously inflammatorytopics (eg: rabbit meat, breeder vs.animal rights attacks) *

- overly abrasive or negative posts on any topic

- personal vendettas

- 'advertising' or linking other forums or commercialventuresin posts (see Content Rulesfor advertising policies).


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## CalifornianKit (Sep 20, 2010)

Also make sure theyre "meat breeders" and not "meat pen" breeders. I breed meat californians and in NO WAY do my bunnies get eaten. Meat pen breeding is basically breeding 4 meat breed rabbits for uniformity. =) No eating what so ever


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## Torchster (Sep 21, 2010)

Iâm certainly not too big to admit when I am wrong. I didnât see or remember the section about unacceptable behavior (I did look for it, but only briefly). It appears that moderator would delete a section about rabbit recipes. Also, for the record, it appears that something is done about meat breeders, but that is more behind the scenes so it would be difficult for me to know anything about that.



Also, for the record, in case I didnât state it clearly before, I have learned some things about rabbits from this forum - be it directly from members, or from links to other websites. And that information could have come from a breeder or not, I do not know. In reality, I donât really care-I am just glad to find information about rabbits, which can be hard to come by. And where it comes from isnât that important, I just wanted to give credit where credit may be due, which could have been a breeder.



However, another point still has not been addressed. The living conditions of some of these rabbits. What I find even more alarming is where these posts are coming from. I assume that most of the breeders on RO (if not all) are NOT the type of breeders who operate as a âpuppy mill.â I assume that the âpuppy millâ breeders really donât care about their buns that much and donât bother with RO. I assume that the breeders on RO are the more responsible breeders.



Having said that I still find at least some of the conditions that the breeders on RO (whom by definition I consider to be the more reasonable breeders - see discussion above) to be objectionable.



I did some further research and found the ARBA. ARBA was the breeder association that I could find in the US (although there could very well be others, my search did not turn them up). I did this to see what the breeder associations say is acceptable living conditions. I could not find that information, most of the information that I found there led to places to pay and get a book, which I am not intending to do. And, as a side bar, I was VERY surprised to see a cook book advertised at the ARBA website, along with a fair amount of information about âcommercialâ applications of rabbits, to put it nicely.



I hope that there is an alternative to the ARBA, but that appears to be the dominate one in the US. But also, not my point at the moment.



Back to the subject at hand, living conditions. Iâve seen posts in sections of RO by well intention new rabbit owners and about the set up that they had already done for the new rabbit that they just got. Sometimes these new owners got out and get a cage (among other things) for their rabbit. Iâve seen numerous times where RO members have stated the setup that the new rabbit owner was too small.



I am having difficultly articulating my point - and I am really trying to be reasonable. I am only going by pictures, when people post stuff about the new cage they got. And I am mentally comparing those pictures to what people post in the breeders section. So I am going by picturesâ¦not actual measurements done by peopleâ¦not by some square footage requirement (that is why I went to the ARBA website for, some kind of standard)â¦I am only going by what I see. And I see people, whom I assume that are at least as knowledgeable as I, if not more so, telling people that they need a bigger cage-yet seeing breeders using something that looks like the same thing to me.



*Please note for the record, I am not against caging bunnies. If you look around my blog, you will note that I cage mine. I do it for safety, in my case. That, and Petunia would destroy all the carpeting in my home in about 10 days, if it was up to her.



So to me, there seems to be a double standard at work here. One would think that any rabbit needs the same things as the next rabbit (assuming size and things like that are equal). Do breeders get a pass on this because they breed rabbits, or because they have more of them?



There are other things to consider. What kind of exercise do rabbits get? I see post all the time about rabbits who are caged needing a couple of hours of out time to get some exercise. When you see a breeder posting pics of cages stacked 4 or 5 tall with 3 or four stacks, what if any exercise time can be given to those rabbits. Do breeders get another pass?



The last point that I will bring up is that I see a great many posts about how social rabbits are. What kind of socialization can a rabbit get in the above mentioned situation? Again do breeders get a pass on this issue also?


Why do recommendations on one part of the website not apply to the other? Why can people post on part of the website that something is objectionable and should be different not apply to another part? If it is helping rabbits on one part of the website, why isnât helping rabbits on another part of the website?


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## CalifornianKit (Sep 21, 2010)

A lot of breeder have rabbit runs for the caged rabbits to run around in during the day while supervised. They are basicallybig cages where the rabbits can hop around and binky and nibble on grass and just be content. I know with my cali's during the winter i let them out in the sun for as long as i can but i have to shorten the time and move them to the shade during summer.


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## Wabbitdad12 (Sep 21, 2010)

Let me see if I am following your trains of thought.

Some people find it offensive that people raise rabbits for meat, and they are directed to other websites. From your commentsit appears that you find it offensive that people breed rabbits. So, if I follow your thought process, why are breeders allowed to stay and the others are not?

Is this correct? 

Regarding your comments about cage space. In all the books I have read, that discuss cage space there is no regulated/sanctioned/agreed upon mininum square footage per breed or size of rabbit. Most agreed upon space requirement is that the rabbit should be able to sit up and completely stretch out.

Responsible breeders handle all their rabbits on a regular basis, checking the condition and health. I cannot speak for all breeders when it comes to the socialization of their herd. 

Regarding the American Rabbit Breeders Association. This organization has done a lot over the past 50+ years of its existance promoting rabbits and the care of them. 

Another point to consider is that rabbits are in a special class of animals. They can be considered either a pet, livestock, or both. Obviously you might not agree with consuming rabbit meat, but surely you would agree that is good that there is an organization that is concerned with all aspects of rabbit care - whether for pets or livestock.

Finally, In this politically correct society we now live in, it is impossible not to offend someone. What you may not find offensive, may offend someone else. On a forum like this you have to be able to agree to disagree.


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## TinysMom (Sep 22, 2010)

*Torchster wrote: *


> However, another point still has not been addressed. The living conditions of some of these rabbits. What I find even more alarming is where these posts are coming from. I assume that most of the breeders on RO (if not all) are NOT the type of breeders who operate as a âpuppy mill.â I assume that the âpuppy millâ breeders really donât care about their buns that much and donât bother with RO. I assume that the breeders on RO are the more responsible breeders.
> 
> *I hope we try to be the more responsible type! *
> 
> ...


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## TinysMom (Sep 22, 2010)

Finally - I couldn't seem to post this before...

I don't know how old you are - so if I seem to be speaking down to you in any way - I apologize - I don't mean to come across that way.

But I'm 50 years old...I had my first rabbits when I was about 10 years old. To this day - I don't remember if we even had pellets for them back then - I've asked my mom and she thinks that after we had them a year or so - we might have had pellets but she doesn't remember buying pellets at first. They had had and leftover vegetables (raw) and stuff like that. 

Rabbits have come a long way as far as being "pets" in those 40 years. It used to be that you kept rabbits outside in a hutch...having a rabbit inside was literally "unheard" of. We did keep a rabbit inside one winter (in a spare bathroom) because we got him when it was still cold outside. But after that - he lived outside - along with other rabbits we eventually had.

Rabbits were originally bred for meat consumption - that is just a fact of life that we can't overlook. It is part of their history and whether we like it or not - that is how much of the public sees them.

Its only been in the last 20 or so years that we've seen the "exotic" rabbits come into existence here in the states and that they've become more common. 

When I was ten - I had a Florida White rabbit (at least that's what I think it was) - and I'll never forget how excited I was to see a BLACK rabbit at the pet store. You never ever saw black rabbits...only the whites. I remember begging my mom to spend the extra $5 to get me the black rabbit instead of a white one because it was "rare".

And a lop rabbit? Mini rex? Satin? Never ever heard of them....

When I first started breeding rabbits - I was talking to the owner of the feed store and trying to make sure that he would not sell my rabbits for consumption (there are no pet stores for 150 miles). I remember him stating that he had no problems with people eating rabbit and my anger and frustration at him - then he explained to me that during the depression - it was the ONLY meat his family had - and that because they had the rabbits that they could give grass and hay and stuff - it saved their family's lives when there was little to no food.

I left his place angry at him - but also - over time - I started to realize some things that I needed to learn.

Rabbits weren't always "pets". The only other example I can even come close to thinking about is people who keep "pot-bellied pigs" or whatever they're called - the minis.

Pigs were originally a livestock animal....just as rabbits were. Now - the pigs are becoming pets too...and our culture is adapting to that change.

I'm glad that you're part of the "enlightened" culture (no offense meant) that can look at rabbits and see them as pets with needs and stuff.

But not everyone is that way - and a lot of that reason is because rabbits have really only been "pets" for a few short years.

We have a long way to go.


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## Torchster (Sep 22, 2010)

Wabbitdad12 - 



Actually, Iâve never said I find breeding of rabbits offensive. Iâve only ever been concerned about the conditions that rabbits live. Of course there are abuses in either the âpetâ setting and in the âbreedingâ setting. There are far to many stories to even try to count of really terrible abuses in the âpetâ setting, that is for sure. Not my point at the moment.



Do I find the breeding of rabbits for meat offensive? Well yes, to put it mildly. Do I find the breeding of pigs offensive, nope, bacon makes anything better-except for maybe beer. Double standard, perhaps. But tasty bacon trumps double standard.



In re the ARBA, I will admit to not know much about this organization. Iâve been to their website a few times and tried to read what I could - much of it was for sale or members and Iâm not interested in giving money to that association. Why is that? Because I find the âcommercializationâ (shall we say) to be offensive. In the exact same way I would find for cats or dogs.



Now, this is what I find baffling (perhaps Iâm just stupid, one possibility). Evidently the breeders here on are RO are comfortable with the ARBA stance on âcommercializationâ (I find this term the less offensive of many that could be used and I am attempting to be respectful) of rabbits, judging by their membership in and support of the ARBA, by attending conventions, shows, being judges or showing rabbits. (Please do not mistake comfortable with happy, excited about, or fully supportive - just comfortable, that is all that I am saying.) I did a quick check of a couple of other places namely American Cat Fanciers Association and American Kennel Club. I believe that these two associations are similar in nature to ARBA - except is one is for dogs and the other for cats. I can find no information about âcommercializationâ on either of their websites - nor can I imagine that there would be. Yet I find breeders on RO associating themselves with and organization that advocates the raising of rabbits for âcommercialâ purposes. Nor do I see any move to either change the ARBA stance, leave the ARBA, or starting something else. Perhaps there is something going on behind the scenes, but I do not see anything on RO. If you give money or time to the ARBA, you are supporting the ARBA and the ARBA is supporting using rabbits for âcommercialâ purposesâ¦plainâ¦simpleâ¦fact. Iâm not saying that you like the stance, I am not not saying that you would ever eat rabbit, Iâm not saying you would ever even go into some place that even serves rabbitâ¦I am saying that you support that stance by your actions.



Would any member of American Cat Fanciers Association or American Kennel Club find it justifiable that their organization were to support âcommercializationâ of either cats or dogs and justify that by saying the âorganizationâ¦is concerned with all aspects ofâ¦careâ to quote wabbitdad12? Is this situation any different? You might say that the history is different between cats and dog vs. rabbits. Yes it is, very very different. But that is history, that is the past, that doesnât change where we are at right now. Either one supports the commercialization of rabbits one doesnât or, in the alternative, you just donât care. And if you donât care, you by definition just donât care about rabbits.


That was a tangent and a halfâ¦Iâm still concerned about the living conditions of rabbits. Iâm still wondering why something is unacceptable for people in the âpetâ section but it is acceptable in the âbreederâ section? Why can I go into the âpetâ area and tell someone what they are doing is not acceptableâ¦but I canât do the same thing in the breeder section? Why donât the same standards apply? Shouldnât they apply? Am I totally off on another planet? Do I need to come back to Earth on this?


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## TinysMom (Sep 22, 2010)

There is no alternative to ARBA if you wish to show rabbits - unless you are a youth - then there is 4H.

But for people who show - it is ARBA or nothing.

You state...

Do I find the breeding of rabbits for meat offensive? Well yes, to put it mildly. Do I find the breeding of pigs offensive, nope, bacon makes anything better-except for maybe beer. Double standard, perhaps. But tasty bacon trumps double standard.



I simply want to add one thing to this....Rabbit meat is actually very healthy for everyone but particularly for folks with certain medical conditions (I want to say its "high cholesterol" but I'm not sure). But I think for some folks it is one of the few protein sources they can have as far as meat goes.

As far as the living conditions of rabbits - I guess that all I can say is we have pet members here who have rabbits in conditions as bad - but they may never share about it on the forum - I'm stating that simply by the odds and the general sizes of cages that are available for sale, etc.

We can't govern everyone. Its just not possible.

If you feel you need to leave - I understand. I truly do. 

I mainly wanted to come in your blog because some breeders contacted me and asked me to address a few facts - like how we don't encourage meat breeding or discussion of it, etc.

No matter what you decide - good luck with your own rabbits!


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## Torchster (Sep 22, 2010)

Tiny Post one - Iâll try to address some of the things you said here. To begin, I do know some of the history behind rabbits generally and behind specific breeds (where they came and stuff like that). I AM NOT AN EXPERT, nor do I claim to be. Certainly the ARBA has been around for a very long time. Also, the fact that you have been around a great many rabbits than I, should easily make you more learned about rabbits than I.



Thank you for posting the about the size of cage recommendations. I assume that if it has cage size recommendations for the smaller breeds of rabbits, it would have them for all breeds. You, as a member, have access to information that I do not. You also have more knowledge of the ARBA because, well, you work with it, I do not.



I vaguely remember someone, somewhere posting something about the size cages that facilities that do animal testing have to use. I tried to find it yesterday, but no luck. I was trying to come up with something, anything really. But failed. I did try to find something.



In the interest of brevity, I attempted to allude to the fact that I see rabbits as individuals - âassuming size and things like that are equal.â Granted it was only sentence, but I was trying to keep things short, and trying to take up as little time as possible. I agree with you, even if I didnât state it well enough, that rabbits are individuals. Each rabbit has different needs. This can apply to a great many things, whether or not they need to socialize, how much time they need out, perhaps even diet.



You ask the question â*So....how social ARE rabbits?â *I could post links to other websites, but I think you at least acknowledge that they are by giving them play time together. I find it hard to imagine a real discussion on this issue so I wonât waste your time by elaborating on it. There are variations among individuals, of course, but speaking to the whole, they are social animals.



Now, I will give you some props. You donât let your buns out to exercise in 100 degree heat. Good for you! It would be irresponsible to do so. I wish I could let my buns outside at all, but I live in a condo, and they treat the grass with all kinds of chemicals. Iâm also not into the whole leash thing for rabbits. Now that its cooling off, you will let them out to play, that is very cool of you. Iâm not trying to be patronizing here, Iâm trying to say that it is a good thing that I donât even do. Of course even you admit - â*Do ALL of my rabbits get the playtime I'd like them to have? Nope.â*



How much time is right? I have no idea. I donât know that a bun that is x pounds that lives in a cage that is y big should have z amount of time outside of their cage. There is no magic formula for that. And because buns are individuals, I donât think that there ever will be. I donât have a magic number. However, by sheer math, the more buns there are, the less supervised time outside their cage they can get. You can change this by adding more places for the buns to play (like by having two different play areas, therefore letting more out at any given time) and by having more people supervise the buns (you canât possibly watch buns 24 hours a day, you do need to sleep, so with the help of another person there could be more time out). You also bring up letting the ones that get along out time together. Very smart, you let them socialize and play at the same time, two birds with one stone!



Please note that for the record Iâm not saying that you have to let every bun out every single day for x amount of time. Perhaps you are sick, or you have to go to a doctorâs appointment, you have relatives in town, a birthday party to go to or perhaps you have a sick bun that needs the attention more. If they miss a day or two where you canât find time, it happens.



I am saying that they need time out of the cages, that its important, and the more buns that there are, the harder the math becomes - and at some point the buns have to suffer. Where is that line, I wish I knew.



Now here is where things get disturbing. â*For one thing - perhaps it is because the breeders aren't ASKING for help or opinions on how they do things?â* I have bent over backwards to try and make this a civil discussion. Perhaps, in your opinion, I havenât done a very good job of it, but I have really tried. Iâve tried to admit when I was wrong, Iâve tried to show when I donât have the answer, Iâve tried to point out the good things that other people do. I have not called out anyone by name. And this is the answer I get back - â*For one thing - perhaps it is because the breeders aren't ASKING for help or opinions on how they do things?â* Perhaps breeders, or more directly TinyâsMom, are entitled to this attitude by the fact they breed rabbits and I donât. Perhaps because I donât breed rabbits Iâm not entitled to questions of those that do.



History is full of examples of change. History of full of examples of people with that EXACT attitude being proven how wrong they are. History is full of examples of people questioning the status quo, amateur outsiders questioning authorityâ¦and sometimes being right. Am I to be an historical example for people to look up, nope. Am I the guy who knows it all? Um, that would be a capital NO. I would more probably be the example of the guy who knows little.



Itâs getting VERY hard to be civil, but I am trying.



Then again, perhaps you donât know best. Perhaps there are better ways. Perhaps you should be questioned. Perhaps I am not the one to do it. But let me be absolutely crystal clear on this one point - I AM concerned with all aspects of rabbit care. I am concerned about the rabbits. That doesnât make me the all knowing rabbit person of authority - but it does give the right to ask reasonable respectful questions. If Iâm wrong, well then hopefully I will admit it (as I have done). If my stance is untenable, hopefully I will see it and move. 



I do know one thing, if someone questions me on how I treat my rabbits, about their living conditions - my answer will not be â*For one thing - perhaps it is because the breeders aren't ASKING for help or opinions on how they do things?â* I will answer those questions openly and honestly. Perhaps I might even learn something for the person asking the questions.


Now, I ask this question again and again, why is something unacceptable for people in the âpetâ section but it is acceptable in the âbreederâ section? Why can I go into the âpetâ area and tell someone what they are doing is not acceptableâ¦but I canât do the same thing in the breeder section? Why donât the same standards apply? Shouldnât they apply?


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## Torchster (Sep 22, 2010)

TinyâsMom post number 2. Well, I think that I addressed most of this in my first post. If you want to know about me, well I crossed the 40 year line a while back, so I am no child. Obviously Iâm not a PETA member or anythingâ¦hmmm bacon. As a matter of fact, I wouldnât be alive today without animal testing (wonât go into details). I did not grow up around rabbits (only dogs, birds and few fish). I grew up in Montana, so I have spent my fair share of time around farms and farm animals-but did not live on one. Iâve only had rabbits as pets for a couple of years now, maybe a year and halfâ¦I should really know my babies gotcha day, but when I first got rabbits, I didnât know there was such a thing as gotcha days. I have no intention of ever breeding anything. Of course living in a condo as I do, pretty much rules it out anyway, but I still canât imagine myself breeding anything.



Is the past history of rabbits sometimes sad, well yes. But the past is the past. I canât change that. Today, right now that is something that can be changed.



Perhaps me asking questions will change something. Not something big and grand. Just change something little and minor. Perhaps my questions are stupid and donât need to be asked? I donât know. But I feel compelled to ask them. I donât know if this comes across, but I have to ask them. Something inside of me is screaming me to ask them. I can speak, bunnies canât.



So I ask the question. I do not bash. I do not go into the breeders section and harass anyone there. I donât go into the general section and ask it there. I try and do it respectfully in one tiny barely read place in the forum, my blog. A place people have to come to find it.



Itâs a question I have to askâ¦ why something is unacceptable for people in the âpetâ section but it is acceptable in the âbreederâ section? Why can I go into the âpetâ area and tell someone what they are doing is not acceptableâ¦but I canât do the same thing in the breeder section? Why donât the same standards apply? Shouldnât they apply?


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## Wabbitdad12 (Sep 22, 2010)

*Torchster wrote: *


> Wabbitdad12 -
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> *I am a member of ARBA and I do care about my rabbits. My rabbits are beloved family pets, To tell people they do not care about their rabbits simply because they are members of ARBA is a narrow minded view.*





> *A person can be a member of an organization and not necessarily agree with everything that organization does. For example,being a member of a political party or voting for a particular canidateof a party does not meanthat a person supports everything that canidate stands for.*
> 
> That was a tangent and a halfâ¦Iâm still concerned about the living conditions of rabbits. Iâm still wondering why something is unacceptable for people in the âpetâ section but it is acceptable in the âbreederâ section? Why can I go into the âpetâ area and tell someone what they are doing is not acceptableâ¦but I canât do the same thing in the breeder section? *Because the breeders need a section to discuss breeding of rabbits.They already know some people object to breeding. *



I look forward to your next blog update about your rabbits.

By the way I agree withyour comment on bacon, thingsdo taste better with it, as for the beer,it depends on the beer.


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## Torchster (Sep 23, 2010)

I wish I had time to reply today...but I didn't. Hopefully i will be able to continue this later.


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