# please help me help daisy, is she okay?!



## furrybutts (Aug 30, 2012)

I have a four month old dwarf rabbit, she concieved on either august 2nd, or 9th. If she did concieve on the 2nd she is now 27 days pregnant. Today i noticed a very little amount of fur on top of her hay, i gave her cage one last good cleaning, seeing as how i think she will be having kits soon. I let her out for a bit tonight, and noticed she was leaking small drops of what seemed to be clear fluid on the couch. I put her back in her cage, but since then she is not building her nest. What was the clear fluid? Could her water have broke? If so, how long until the kits come? Also, this wasnt a planned pregnancy, i did happen to get my male neutered, but i introduced them too early, (after two weeks) not knowing that it would literallyonly take 2 seconds for her to get pregnant. He is a full sized rex, could there be a possibility of her dying since she is a dwarf having full sized rex buns? please, help!!

^^^ from last night, still no babies. Daisy is drinking way more water than normal, and she seems to be eating okay. the clear fluid seemed to stop leaking from her baby maker area, i'm just concerned that the fluid is a bad sign. someone please, any info is great!! ive done so much research, but this is the one question that hasnt been fully answered, and i want to make Daisy as comfortable as possible for the remainder of her pregnant. THANK YOU!!


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## gmas rabbit (Aug 30, 2012)

personally I would take her to the vet and have her checked out. She has 2 things against her. She is way to young to be carrying babies, and the male is much bigger than her. She may not be able to deliver them, you need to know if she can or not.


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## furrybutts (Aug 30, 2012)

I thought she may be too young aswell, I got her from the pet store, they said she was about 2 months old, she just came in. so if im doing the math correctly, she should be just over 4 months. however, when i brought her home, i neutered mister bunny RIGHT AWAY. i waited two weeks like i was told to, until i introduce them, there was mounting involved, i seen her butt go up in the air , and mister bunny made a squeak noise. I immediatley looked up what just happened, and read that he in fact is still fertile (says rabbit house asso.) and that the noise means they had indeed got it on.


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## furrybutts (Aug 30, 2012)

after some much needed research, i thought that maybe she wouldnt put her rump in the air if she wasnt ready. so i figured that i had just made a mistake, got get pregnant, everything will be okay even though she is a dwarf having rex kits, and now im just nervous, freaking out, i want to cry, i feel like a horrible rabbit owner, and i just want to make sure SHE will ultimatley be okay


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## nc_bunnys (Aug 30, 2012)

Calm down, you are not a horrible rabbit owner. I second the trip to the vet. Keep us posted on Daisy's progress.


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## furrybutts (Aug 30, 2012)

i just dont know what i would do should anything happen to her, and it being something i could have prevented if i wasnt ignorant. the thing is i wont be able to get her to a vet until about a week or so from now, and she would have had her babies by then. im stuck!! i softly rubbed her belly, i dont feel much movement in her tummy, its kind of hard though, i notice if shes not sleeping shes drinking lots of water, and if shes not drinking, shes grooming herself. lol usually she is ALWAYS biting at her cage to get out but she doesnt have AS MUCH of an interest to come out and play. even my male rabbit seems a bit lethargic lol. could male rabbits have like sympathy pregnancy symptoms? interesting .. ill post the pictures i have on hand right now in just a second.


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## LakeCondo (Aug 30, 2012)

Did you tell them at the vet's it was an emergency?

And who told you the male was no longer after 2 weeks? After 2 weeks it would be ok to put him with a spayed female, but not an unspayed one?


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## woahlookitsme (Aug 30, 2012)

I do not have house rabbits so I do not notice if clear fluid leaks from our girls when they are pregnant. The only things I would notice is if its visible in the drop trays under them. I am not sure if rabbits go through a water break but they might. What we do notice before is a bunch of nesting behavior such as the normal gathering hay in the mouth. We put nest boxes in our cages on Day 28. Usually moms don't use them as litter boxes unless we put it in too early for the bun or she isn't preggo. Momma rabbits usually will pull fur from their belly/hips or dewlap if they have one. This varies on the rabbit as far as when it happens, it could be weeks before or hours before but the majority of hair pulling happens right before. We notice a day or two before our does appetite will decrease and they will lay around a lot changing positions frequently. 

If she is biting at her cage try giving her bedding material such as hay to gather and work on a nest. That might be causing it. 

Dont think males have sympathy symptoms but ours always feel content and relaxed after a breeding session. 

As for the size difference. I havent had much experience with it but the babies will grow to fit the size of the doe. Since she is dwarf (if she truly has the dwarf gene) and the dad is normal you wont have any dwarf babies (this gene is recessive). We had a doe give birth to 7 babies and they were all just super small but all survived. The thing you would have to watch out for or might want to research are fetal giants. Of course also any birthing complications can be experienced but i'm not sure a vet can help you determine if she will have them. You can try being there when she kindles and help if any kits become stuck by helping. I dont have any experience with this but you can research it also just in case. 

Good luck to you!


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## furrybutts (Aug 30, 2012)

yes i explained to them the situation, and thats the response i got!! i even called around, but in my area, i dont have any vets who specialize in rabbits, i was even told to not give my bun any food or water before he got neutered, but i knew better than to do that so i called back, and then the vet said "oh yea thats right" basically. im trying to work with the resources i have, the closest vet that specializes in rabbits is an hour away, and between mine and my fiances jobs, theres NO way. im literally stuck. and i keep watching her trying to notice signs of pain, and such, but we all know how hard that is!!


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## furrybutts (Aug 30, 2012)

also the vet i took mister bunny to is the one who said two weeks, and his hormones should be gone, well im glad i researched, because i woujld still think this today!!


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## Imbrium (Aug 30, 2012)

*LakeCondo wrote: *


> Did you tell them at the vet's it was an emergency?
> 
> And who told you the male was no longer after 2 weeks? After 2 weeks it would be ok to put him with a spayed female, but not an unspayed one?


well the female would've been too young to be spayed at the time the male was neutered (females get spayed around 4-6 months of age), so it was a recently-neutered male with an unspayed female... and yeah, it can take a month or so for a male to no longer be able to knock up a female.

please don't beat yourself up or feel like a bad owner! you're doing lots of research and working your butt off to make sure your bunn is happy and healthy - that makes a GOOD owner in my book! we've all made a preventable mistake now and then when first starting out with bunnies (I used pine bedding for a couple days before I learned what a HUGE no-no that was). he was neutered, and with most animals that automatically means no more chance of knocking up a female - you made an understandable mistake and are doing everything you need to in order to fix it!

I'd offer advice if I could, but I've never dealt with a pregnant bunny so I'm clueless ><


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## furrybutts (Aug 30, 2012)

woahlookitsme, you have no idea how comforting your response was to me. lol i LITERALLY took a deep breath and said to myself, "okay we can do this". so i shouldnt worry much about her being "too small" to give birth? also, i didnt know much about genes and breeding, actually i know nothing at all, but im learning as much as i can!! so they will all be normal sized rex?


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## furrybutts (Aug 30, 2012)

IMBRIUM, thank you for the compliment, i really am working as hard as i can!  but please tell me what you found about pine bedding... ive used it for a while but i usually mix it with the softer stuff.


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## Imbrium (Aug 30, 2012)

it can cause respiratory problems and even liver problems (source: http://www.rabbit.org/journal/1/liver-disease.html ). I made the switch away from pine a day or two before my bunnies' first vet check-up and he could actually tell just from looking at them that I'd used the wrong kind briefly.

the best thing to use for bedding is something like carefresh or critter care - recycled paper pulp, which is at least as soft as pine and won't cause any health problems... or if you have a NIC cage, most folks skip the bedding entirely and line the cage with fleece which cuts down on the mess (and expense)

for litter boxes, avoid wood shavings (pine, cedar, etc) and ALL types of clay cat litter. carefresh, wood pellets (as opposed to shavings), paper pellets and all sorts of other beddings/litters will work just fine. the page I linked to above also has a list of which beddings and litters are good to use


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## woahlookitsme (Aug 30, 2012)

They might not turn out as big as full grown standard rex but they will be equal to or bigger than mom full grown. As far as birthing size. You will not get any peanuts (only seen with a dwarf to dwarf breeding where the recessive dwarf gene is aquired from each parent). Runts are a possibility and so are giants. The giants create problems and usually dont survive because they end up being stuck or just grow to large if i remember correctly. We had a doe that had a super long kit and people from another forum concluded it was a fetal giant that just got stuck. Sadly it was stuck so long the other babies she gave birth to died also. 

Here are some discussions about giant kits
http://z13.invisionfree.com/RabbitHabbit_Forums/ar/t31408.htm 
http://z13.invisionfree.com/RabbitHabbit_Forums/ar/t13007.htm
Im sure you can find more info on it but the best thing would be to just be there during the birthing process.

EDIT: Are we talking about a standard rex (10-11lbs max) or a mini rex (4-5lbs max)


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## furrybutts (Aug 30, 2012)

i was told hes a standard rex, but he def doesnt weigh 10-11 lbs yet, hes about 5 months, and hes larger than a mini rex. could he still be growing? and when the fetal giant was stuck, did you help get him out? or is it best to just let her do her thing? i just took 1,000 pictures, i need help posting them!! how do i do that??


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## furrybutts (Aug 30, 2012)

and i knew cedar was bad, i thought pine was okay cause the bag says dust free, okay now i know! ill be making this change IMMEDIATLEY. mister bunny only have the pine shavings in his litter box, but daisy still uses the pine for bedding, better make that change before the kits get here!! THANK YOU!


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## woahlookitsme (Aug 30, 2012)

at 5mos old he is still growing. I just wanted to make sure. It was my moms himalayan that had a stretched and enlarged baby. She had him on her own we have never been there during the actual kindling (it usually happens in the early morning or at night) and havent had to pull a baby so I do not know how to do it but im sure you can google search something. 

I post pictures via photobucket or you can link them to your gallery


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## furrybutts (Aug 30, 2012)

picutres are posted!! ill be posting more regularly. thank you guys for all your support!!


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## gmas rabbit (Aug 30, 2012)

Is there a breeder in this area that might be familiar with birthing that you can get help from??


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## furrybutts (Aug 30, 2012)

i wouldnt even know how to find one in my area, in completley new at this. entirely


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## Imbrium (Aug 30, 2012)

you can just google "rabbit breeders in ___" (wherever you live) and you should be able to come up with something if there is one. most breeders (even small-scale ones) have some sort of website these days


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## gmas rabbit (Aug 30, 2012)

You may even be able to get help from your local humane society. You need to phone them and tell them your circumstances and the problem. someone out there should be able to help you. I her tummy is hard, and leaking fluid, I would say that she is in labor. Have you checked to see if she has dilated at all. Will they vet not allow you to pay later.


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## MiniLopHop (Aug 30, 2012)

I would be really worried about a kit getting stuck and killing her, it would be a horribly painful way to die. She should have had an emergency spay to abort the kits in the beginning.


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## furrybutts (Aug 30, 2012)

i had a helpful tip earlier, someone said that the babies will grow to fit the size of the doe. i also did some research, and came up with the same answer... i dont think that should be much of my concern, but if she does have a fetal giant, then ill be concerned. ive been watching her every move. she may be 21 or 28 days pregnant today, but theres not too many signs of them coming right away besides last night, i noticed some weird behavior, but since last night thats all stopped, so we shall see.


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## furrybutts (Aug 30, 2012)

and i have been checking her baby maker area, and she doesnt seem to be dialated. everything seems to be pretty closed up. and there was about six dime sized spot of fluid on my couch (its leather thats why it was so noticable to me) last night, but no action since. i can tell she is so so tired, and shes been drinking like three times the normal amount of water. i give her a bowl so ive refilled it like 5 times today to keep it fresh. shes eating and poopin, and peeing all normally, so i do think she is okay as of now, the fluids just freaked me out last night. i cant think of what it couldve been. i even thought maybe she did pee a little bit, but it wouldnt be in scattered little spots, she would pee in one spot.


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## LakeCondo (Aug 30, 2012)

*Imbrium wrote*


> it can take a month or so for a male to no longer be able to knock up a female.
> 
> he was neutered, and with most animals that automatically means no more chance of knocking up a female



I would not be assuming males of any species immediately lost their sperm right after they were neutered.


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## woahlookitsme (Aug 31, 2012)

Any nesting behavior going on? If you dont get babies by monday then she might have gotten hit on the 9th?


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## furrybutts (Aug 31, 2012)

no, no nesting behaviour, she has unlimited supply of hay right now, im getting her a bigger cage also tonight. OKAY BUT NOW IM FREAKING OUT AGAIN!! so i let her out this morning, and because shes been moody, i let her stay out for about 4 hours, she was runnin round, happy hoppin, and being her cute little self. i picked her up to check her baby maker and it doesnt seem to be dialated, so i dont know what that clear liquid could have been two days ago.. NOW im noticing a little bit of yellow oozy stuff!! whats going on?? does this happen in pregnant bunnies? is it something to worry about? is she infected? aaahhhh!!should i clean it with a warm wash cloth? i dont know!! HELP please!!


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## furrybutts (Aug 31, 2012)

theres not enough yellow oozy stuff to the point to where its dripping out of her that i notice, but its really yellow looking. i didnt like stick my nose in it, but i tried to see if there was some kind of odor.. and i didnt notice one. i figured if it was stinky maybe its some kind of infection, but i couldnt smell anything.


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## MiniLopHop (Aug 31, 2012)

It is quite possible that her water broke the other night on the couch. A baby got stuck and died in her and now pyometria has set in. Please take her to the vet ASAP!

The idea that babies only grow to fit the space is crap. The breed and genetics are what determine that. They may grow slightly larger or smaller depending on room but the parents size is the largest determining factor. Please don't let your rabbit suffer because you are choosing the facts you want to hear.


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## furrybutts (Aug 31, 2012)

ive been checking her all day, and only seen it once, i spread her thing open, and theres clear liquid there now.... could that be pyometra?


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## furrybutts (Aug 31, 2012)

and i notice she is really drinking ALOT, and peeing ALOT. is that from pregnancy?


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## woahlookitsme (Aug 31, 2012)

Yellow doesnt sound good. Intact females can get uterine infections. I would really take her in at this point to someone. Im sure an xray can be done on her. This should show any fluids and if she is even preggo. When my lamb had pneumonia i took her to my boss who only treats dogs and cats and even they were able to help me out. It doesnt hurt to ask a vet but make sure to tell whoever picks up the phone your story. Let them know there arent any real rabbit vets around you and short of driving far you just wanted an opinion. It cant hurt to call around and ask. Good luck! But like i said i dont have house rabbits so unless its noticeable in their drop pans i have no clue what liquids come out of our preggo moms


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## Bunnylova4eva (Aug 31, 2012)

I'm not sure since I've never bred rabbits, although the one thing that comes to mind right away is to please try calling a emergency vet. Even if you can't get the bunny there, they should be able to give you some advice. Call your vet, explain again you think this is an emergency and if they won't get you in, ask for their emergency vet number. Emergency clinics are pricey but you could at least call for advice. That can be a huge help.


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## woahlookitsme (Aug 31, 2012)

MiniLopHop wrote:


> It is quite possible that her water broke the other night on the couch. A baby got stuck and died in her and now pyometria has set in. Please take her to the vet ASAP!
> 
> The idea that babies only grow to fit the space is crap. The breed and genetics are what determine that. They may grow slightly larger or smaller depending on room but the parents size is the largest determining factor. Please don't let your rabbit suffer because you are choosing the facts you want to hear.



Have you ever bred a large rabbit to a small rabbit? Im just wondering. 
When babies are born they usually grow to fit the space in their mom. This is why i ended up seeing a noticeably smaller kit size with a litter of 7. But When my tan had one baby it was abnormally large because it was the only one in the litter so it had more room to grow. I just wanted to know if you had specific experience with it or were just stating an opinion?


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## MiniLopHop (Aug 31, 2012)

I worked in an animal emergency room and saw the sad consequences in other people's animals. Perhaps I am over reacting, but it really sounds dangerous to me and I have seen does die with the babies stuck.

I think your experience is from the same breeds, so yes there is some fluctuation. With the larger male the genetics will take over and make them too large for the mom to birth.


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## furrybutts (Aug 31, 2012)

thank you guys for all of your opinions, im going to make a few phone calls and see what i can do for her. as of now, im not noticing her being in any pain, shes acting normal besides drinking alot, and being a little tired, but i think i can expect that being she is pregnant. im going to spend some extra time with her tonight. should i be concerned about her drinking so much water? and peeing alo?


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## Hyatt101 (Aug 31, 2012)

Any update??


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## Kipcha (Sep 1, 2012)

We just had a similar situation happen with a person we know and the baby got huge and stuck inside the mom, she needed to have a c section to have it removed. She was a dwarf bred to a standard rex as well.

She really needs to at least be seen by a vet.


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## furrybutts (Sep 1, 2012)

no yellow, and no clear liquid. its so weird how all these weird things are just coming and going, im going to be taking her to a vet soon!! shes eating and drinking, peeing and pooping, and i know thats the most important thing about rabbits.


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## Hyatt101 (Sep 1, 2012)

ray:


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## caramel17 (Sep 2, 2012)

Good Luck! I hope that there isn't anymore problems! I bred my male holland with my mini lop (the mini lop is bigger, so no probs there i hope) and I think she got an opening to nip at his private part... it bleeding still, and it happened at like 4:30 this afternoon, I'm keeping him in my room until I know that he is okay!!! I have never bred rabbits before, but I did make sure that I put my doe in the bucks cage, but she is still aggresive I think...


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## woahlookitsme (Sep 3, 2012)

Ok I really wanted to figure this out so I posted on a forum that has most of RO's past rabbit breeders and got two replies. Also I was wondering if there was an update on the doe. Here is the actual forum. Im not sure if you can see it unless you join but it is
http://s4.zetaboards.com/Rabbit_Addict/topic/9694337/1/#new

And here are the replies
"yes, it can cause problems. In the dwarf breeds a small true dwarf doe can have trouble delivering larger false dwarf kits -- we had one JW doe who's largest kit was always stillborn (3 litters - each litter with one stretched, one peanut and 2 normal kits) and looked stretched. In one case the entire litter was lost, probably because the other kits died while she struggled to deliver the largest first (course she also had that litter on the wire and we didn't find them until morning).

That said, scaring people who made an honest error with horror stories isn't helpful. While I've lost kits and in the one case the whole litter, I haven't lost a doe to this. And I know plenty of alternative cases where everything worked out just fine. "

"With my Holland Lops, I have used a larger false dwarf buck with smaller true dwarf does with no ill effects. Dwarf does can have larger 'normal' kits even breeding dwarf x dwarf, so a swarf birthing a 'normal' happens pretty regularly around here without any problems.

I have also had very large false dwarf does bred to small dwarf bucks have issues with large stuck kits-- so in my experience its not really the buck/doe/dwarf/nondwarf relation between parents that has been the source of any issues, its something with each individual pregnancy. It seems that most often, the doe's body regulated growth of the fetuses inside the doe so she can give birth safely, and those that will be much bigger grow much bigger once born. When something goes wrong with that regulation, it doesn't seem to matter if the doe is bigger or smaller or the same size as the buck she was bred to.

However when breeding dwarf x non-dwarf Hollands, the largest size difference between parents has been 1 to 2 pounds. If your friend's dwarf doe is a small true dwarf or 2-3 pounds, perhaps the 8-9 pound size of an adult Rex could cause more issues.

Even so, I would be more concerned about the younger age of the doe meaning her reproductive tract was not yet as mature, than I would about the size of the buck. "


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## Hyatt101 (Sep 3, 2012)

Has anything happened? Have you got Daisy to the vet? I think we'd all really like an update! ray:


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## furrybutts (Sep 4, 2012)

that post really helped woahlookitsme!! thank you!! so you were right on that, and i havent noticed any more yellow. that was only the one time, i dont knnow what it could have been, but nothing since. the water leaking stopped, again only since that day have i seen anything, and trust me i check her ALL the time lol i think shes starting to get annoyed with me because she is one rabbit that DOES NOT like to be picked up, never has. cant blame her, if i was a ground dweller, id feel the same!! now, ive been feeling her tummy for some activity, and i cant feel much, sometimes i think i feel movement, but not 100% positive. although her belly has gotten a bit bigger, and more firm. her nipples are getting a bit larger, and she still wants NOTHING to do with Mister Bunny <she did before they mated>. so im still pretty sure she is pregnant, and since today is the 4th.. im 100% she concieved on the 9th. so that makes today DAY 26! and i am hoping for a good delivery. also, i must add, that i am not sure if she is a true dwarf. when i got her they lady didnt know what breed she was, i was only told she was a dwarf mix. so i dont know. but all in all daisy seems to be doing well, shes taking it like a champ! and im giving her so much attention i think im causing bad habbits! lol. so we should be expecting anyday now.

only thing that concerns me now is that she is not nesting. ive given proper nesting materials, and she is just not taking advantage of them. what to do about that? id like to think she is just go ahead and nest when she is ready, it is instinct right? should i be concerned?


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## furrybutts (Sep 4, 2012)

i think daisy will be okay. i may have jumped to the worrying too fast, but i just care too much for my babygirl to let anything bad happen to her!! i dont know what i would do. i actually decided to get a bunny because i lost a dog last march, and i needed another animal to help me cope with my loss, but i am not ready for another dog!! so i did some basic research, and found a bunny would be perfect! but when i got mister bunny, i jjust HAD to get him a friend and then came daisy! i SO did NOT plan for any of THIS lol. but its a learning experience and i wouldnt be able to do it without you guys, thank you!!


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## furrybutts (Sep 4, 2012)

okay, ive never been so sure until now. I FELT ACTION IN HER TUMMY!! yay. she was lying next to me, i put my hands under her belly from her sides, and waited.. i very gently rubbed a bit, and BOOM, i felt movement in her tummy. i didnt know who else to share this with..   im SOOOO happy.


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## Imbrium (Sep 4, 2012)




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## woahlookitsme (Sep 4, 2012)

yay! And if today is day 26 dont worry. We give our does nestboxes on day 28 and thats when they start seriously gathering hay. Usually 29-30 is when youll see it unless the bun is extra prepared and nests before that. Try to find a place where she can feel comfortable having the babies. Like a plastic shoe container or something so you can get it ready to give to her when she starts gathering hay


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## furrybutts (Sep 4, 2012)

does you bunnies like some type of covering over their nesting boxes?


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## woahlookitsme (Sep 7, 2012)

My computer isnt workng right now but ill try to find a picture of the nest boxes we use. The top is only half covered but the does love to rest up there and get some me time away from the babies that love to feed at all hours of the day lol. the babies also love to get on top and hang out


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## Hyatt101 (Sep 7, 2012)

Oh, congrats!! Any babies yet?


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## Hyatt101 (Sep 8, 2012)

Update? Update? Sorry if i'm annoying, but i hope daisy is okay!


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## MiniLopHop (Sep 19, 2012)

Hi, I'm rather worried about Daisy. Any updates? I would think the babies are surely here by now?


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## gmas rabbit (Sep 19, 2012)

Have been checking regularly wondering how she made out. Been along time since we have heard about her.


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## Hyatt101 (Sep 19, 2012)

Yes, please!! Is daisy okay?


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## bethepoet (Sep 19, 2012)

Oh dear, I was reading hoping there'd be a happy ending!


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