# My clown loach



## Sweetie (Dec 14, 2011)

Hi there! My biggest clown loach is sick and I am worried about her. She has a white spot on her head and no where else. Her fins look like another fish has been fighting her. I have a 55 gallon tank that she is in with other tankmates, two plecostamuses, three goldfish and two other clown loaches. They all get along with each other.

The clown loach that is sick is hanging at the top of the tank and swimming slowly all through the tank. Her dorsal fin is down like she doesn't feel well. That is how I know that they don't feel well is when they have their dorsal fin down.

I dosed the tank with anti-fungus last night, and she does seem to be doing a little better today.

What could this be that is making my clown loach ill?

Please help!


----------



## LaylaLop (Dec 14, 2011)

White spots sound like ick, or a fungal infection. I don't know much about fish but sometimes I've heard it helps to bring up the temperature some for sick fish... Wish I could be of more help!


----------



## Nancy McClelland (Dec 14, 2011)

If you have a good fish/aquarium place, you might give them a call and see what they think. Does it look like someone has been chewing/fighting with the Loach? I had to get rid of my Plecostemi for that same reason--once they got big enough they started putting the other fish on the menu.


----------



## Sweetie (Dec 14, 2011)

All the fish in the 55 gallon fishtank have been together for a good while. The plecostamuses and clown loaches have been together since they were little. My clown loaches are 7, 5 1/2, and 4 inches. My plecostamuses are about 8 inches. They are not full grown yet.

I could talk to Petsmart or even Petco about it. But I would like to see if anyone here can give me insight as to what it is.

I know what ick looks like and I don't think that it is ick, but I will keep an eye on it just in case it is. I do have medicine for ick if it is that.


----------



## Watermelons (Dec 15, 2011)

sounds like a good old combo of ich and fin rot.


----------



## lilylop (Dec 15, 2011)

could you post a pic of it? 

I wouldn't go treating your fish untill you know what it is. You could be doing more damage than good as most meds with scaleless fish are halved so as not to burn them. A pic would really help


----------



## Sweetie (Dec 15, 2011)

My clown loach is getting better, the white spot that is on her head is almost gone. Her right front fin looks the same. She is still hanging at the top of the tank and swimming slowly. I may have to do another round.

I won't be able to get a pic.

lilylop: I have the medicine that has pictures of what diseases they treat and it did look kinda like the fungus cotton wool. I caught it early so it isn't full blown.

I am not able to get a clear picture of the clown loach with the disease on her head.

I always make sure what the problem is before I dose the fish with medicine.

I will treat her with the ich medicine if I see any white spots on her body after she gets better from the fungus. I am thinking that she may be stressed, probably from being sick.

Thank you for your help. Anymore suggestions would greatly be appreciated

Watermelons: I dosed the tank with anti-fungus on Tuesday. Have to do another dose tonight, then hopefully she (clown loach) will be all better.


----------



## lilylop (Dec 15, 2011)

Loaches are extremely hard to get pics of sometimes lol like all fish I guess. Glad to see that the treatment is working. It could have been a start to hole in the head but that mainly afffects cichlids (sp). Keep up with the treatment and maintain regular water changes and she should be fine. You can also treat ich with out meds by slowly raising the temp to 30 -31 degrees and leaving it for 5 days just incase you ever get it and you don't have any meds on hand


----------



## Sweetie (Dec 15, 2011)

Why thank you for that insight about treating ich without meds. Yeah I love my clown loaches and I have had them for about 6 years, I want them to get huge. Hopefully I will have enough money to get a bigger tank for when they get bigger. Clown loaches grow slow enough that it would take years for them to get about 12-20in.


----------



## NickZac (Dec 15, 2011)

What ingredients are in the meds you dosed? Many common fish medications will kill skin/scaleless/catfish and other delicate fish. This obviously includes plecs and loaches. Also, many common meds from pet stores simply do not work and contain toxic ingredients. Loaches and plecs are some of most delicate fish in terms of sensitivity to toxic medications.

I need to see a pic and know more information...

-What is the temp and temp flux?
-What is the pH and what, if anything, do you soften water with?
-When was the last time you introduced a new fish?
-Do you use any type of frozen or live food other than pellets/wafers/flakes?
-Do you have the ability to isolate this fish in a sick tank?
-What are your ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate readings?
-What do you have on their filtration wise? (you have a HEAVY bio-load)


If the white spot is a cotton looking growth, you are probably correct in it being fungi. HOWEVER, healthy fish just don't get random fungal infections and it is likely related to an underlying condition, often a bacterial infection. The fin rot further supports this. Subsequently, just an anti-fungal may not help the fish. The ideal antibiotic without doing a gram stain and susceptibility test would be doxycycline as it has activity on gram negative and positive bacteria, as well as anti-fungal properties. However, this can also be related to ammonia, nitrite, and even nitrate poisoning and so water quality issues need to be ruled out.

Many medications will kill off the beneficial bacteria of the biological filter. This can result in an ammonia spike and is why medications often say to do daily water changes, sometimes as much as 50% (but usually 10-25%). Unless the anti-fungal you are dosing is griseofulvan (which it probably is not), it is going to kill off some of the biological filter and it is (more than likely) highly toxic. I am guessing you bought sometime containing acriflavine (and sodium), as many generic 'big brand' meds contain it as their active ingredient, in which case it is indeed highly toxic and known for killing good bacteria.

Whatever you do, DO NOT ADD SALT! You will stress the fish too much as plecs and loaches are both very sensitivity to even mild increases in salinity (and it is not healthy for freshwater fish anyway, nor does it really work anymore due to pathogen resistance).


----------



## NickZac (Dec 15, 2011)

Oh yeah, and is he/she still eating?


----------



## Sweetie (Dec 15, 2011)

*NickZac wrote: *


> What ingredients are in the meds you dosed? Many common fish medications will kill skin/scaleless/catfish and other delicate fish. This obviously includes plecs and loaches. Also, many common meds from pet stores simply do not work and contain toxic ingredients. Loaches and plecs are some of most delicate fish in terms of sensitivity to toxic medications.
> 
> I need to see a pic and know more information...
> 
> ...



First: I cannot separate this fish from the other clown loaches, separating this fish from the other clown loaches will do more harm to her.

What is the temp and temp flux? Temp is about 72 degrees, but I just turned up one of the heaters. I will see about turning the other one up.

What is the pH and what, if anything, do you soften water with? I use Stress Coat to get the chemicals out.

When was the last time you introduced a new fish? No new fish were introduced to the tank

Do you use any type of frozen or live food other than pellets/wafers/flakes? I feed frozen food: blood worms, brine shrimp, and veggies

Do you have the ability to isolate this fish in a sick tank? Clown loaches are not to be isolated, they are social fish, if they are isolated then they will get very lonely and die

What are your ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate readings? I haven't done any water tests. But I will after this treatment. I will do a water test on Saturday or Sunday to make sure everything is normal. How often should I do water tests?

What do you have on their filtration wise? (you have a HEAVY bio-load) Do you mean what do I have for filters? If so, AquaTech and Top Fin, both good for up to 60 gallon fish tanks.

My plecos are doing really good and so are the other two clown loaches and the goldfish. I do have a 10 gallon fishtank but like Isaid I cannot separate her from the other clown loaches, because she will get lonesome and die. I don't want to lose her because she is my biggest one. I have a 7 inch, 5 1/2 inch, and 4 inch clown loaches.

The medicine that Idosed the tank with,has these ingredients: malachite green, arciflavine hydrochloride.

I will be doing a water change after this treatment is cycled through and she (clown loach) is better.

I was thinking that shealso has a bacteria infection, but I will see if someone can come and take a look at her to make sure before I dosewith the anti-bacteria.

Oh yea I never add salt to my fishtanks. I have always wondered about the salt though. But I never add salt to my fishtanks.

I understand that the clown loaches are sensitive fish, but I didn't know that plecos were sensitive fish.

When I dosed the tank I half dosed it, because the clown loaches are scaleless fish and the stuff can harm them if it is full dosed.


----------



## Sweetie (Dec 15, 2011)

She didn't eat the first day I noticed she was sick, but she is eating as of yesterday. I am keeping an eye on her though.


----------



## Sweetie (Dec 15, 2011)

I just looked at the bottom of my clown loach (the one that is sick) fins and noticed white spots on her back right fin. Looks like I am going to have to dose with Cure Ick if it stays.


----------



## NickZac (Dec 15, 2011)

Sweetie wrote:


> *NickZac wrote: *
> 
> 
> > What ingredients are in the meds you dosed? Many common fish medications will kill skin/scaleless/catfish and other delicate fish. This obviously includes plecs and loaches. Also, many common meds from pet stores simply do not work and contain toxic ingredients. Loaches and plecs are some of most delicate fish in terms of sensitivity to toxic medications.
> ...




72 is a bit low for loaches and plecos. You want to be around 80, however, only gradually bump the temp. Even a quick shift of 2 degrees is enough to kill even healthy fish from shock in some cases. A higher temp not only speed metabolism but increases immunity (http://www.loaches.com/species-index/clown-loach-chromobotia-macracanthus)

Do you know the hardness and alkalinity of the water?

The bloodworms and brine shrimp can sometimes act as a vector for disease. This is rare, especially because they are frozen so I would consider it unlikely but not impossible.

Loaches are best kept in large groups due to their social nature, however, isolating a loach in a sick tank is often the best (and only) way of preventing death. It also makes them easier to monitor. When I bred loaches and had 100+ gallon takes with 20+ clowns, I would usually isolate the sick loach with one other healthy loach in a 10, 20, or 40 gallon tank depending on the loach size (some of the breeders were working on a foot long!).

Many makers advertise that malachite green (and formalin) should not be used on fish such as loaches and plecos except as a drug of last resort. Its effectiveness in recent years has also declined leading to a need for a stronger dosing schedule. (http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/treatments/malachite.htm) Acriflavine and malachite green are both highly toxic, especially to plecs and loaches. I would test the water daily as those medications can cause a huge ammonia spike by wiping out the bacterial bed. For loaches, I would use metronidazole, griseofulvan, and/or quinine sulfate, depending upon the condition(s). These medications are not only less stressful to the fish, but are more effective (ex: quinine kills resistant strands of ich that are now malachite and formalin resistant). If the fish has a bacterial condition, it may need to be treated, as many fungal infections are secondary infections stemming from bacteria. However, in some cases, eliminating one disease allows the fish's immune system to effectively eliminate the other. Since she is eating, this is a very good sign.

Salt has been used for years as a âtonicâ and âcureâ for certain parasites and protozoaâ¦as of today, it is not very effective and it is known that salt can cause organ damage on freshwater fish, especially loaches and plecs. If pet shops tell you to add salt, I would be weary of any advice they give you.


----------



## Sweetie (Dec 15, 2011)

Thank you very much. 

I just saw her scratch herself on the rocks, so I am going to have to dose with the cure-ick after I get done with the other stuff. Hopefully the ich doesn't manifest too much.


----------



## Nancy McClelland (Dec 15, 2011)

Yeah, raise the temp and dose for ick.


----------



## NickZac (Dec 15, 2011)

Sweetie wrote:


> Thank you very much.
> 
> I just saw her scratch herself on the rocks, so I am going to have to dose with the cure-ick after I get done with the other stuff. Hopefully the ich doesn't manifest too much.



My pleasure! Quinine sulfate is the best way to go IMO. It is also the only ich medication I know of that not only kills the parasite in the free swimming stage, but also when attached. Most ich cures will have formalin in them and will likely say dose at 1/2 strength for delicate fish or not at all. Unfortunately, there are resistant strains of ich that will not be knocked out by 1/2 (sometimes even a full) dose of the classic formalin and malachite cocktail. Bumping the temp up speeds up the lifecycle of the ich parasite. However, keep in mind that when you bump the temp, you bump the demand for dissolved oxygen as well and so be sure your DO levels remain high (especially if they have ich, which tends to 'cover' the parts needed to function in order for the fish to breath). Quinine also kills virtually all other pathogens that cause itching as well.


----------



## Sweetie (Dec 15, 2011)

Just raised the temp on both heaters. 

Since I am dosing with the anti-fungus, would it be safe to dose with the cure-ick also, or wait until I am done with the anti-fungus treatment which will be tonight is the last dose that I need to do?


----------



## NickZac (Dec 15, 2011)

Personally I would wait. IIRC both of those products contain malachite green and so dosing them simultaneously may increase the level too high.


----------



## Sweetie (Dec 15, 2011)

Ok then I will wait until Saturday to dose with the cure-ick, that is if she still has it after she gets better from the fungus infection.

I greatly appreciate your advice NickZac and everyone else's too.

Watermelons: you are right. My sick clown loach has ick and a fungal infection.

Well I hope that my sick clown loach gets better!


----------



## fuzz16 (Dec 16, 2011)

i dont think anyone mentioned this...but you CANNOT medicate a tank with the loaches in it because they dont have scales, the meds wont help them, but make them worse. and youd be medicating a tank of possibly perfectly fine fish and destroying their immune system.
and if you medicate you also need to remove any carbon your running, if you are, which most people generally dont need it.

if your fish has ich, you need to find out why. it can lay dorment for months. raise the temp and do water changes, make sure to vac to gravel. 

and one dot doesnt sound like ich, if she had fin rot then there may be white spots that are scarring on the finnage from growing back.


----------



## NickZac (Dec 16, 2011)

fuzz16 wrote:


> i dont think anyone mentioned this...but you CANNOT medicate a tank with the loaches in it because they dont have scales, the meds wont help them, but make them worse. and youd be medicating a tank of possibly perfectly fine fish and destroying their immune system.
> and if you medicate you also need to remove any carbon your running, if you are, which most people generally dont need it.
> 
> if your fish has ich, you need to find out why. it can lay dorment for months. raise the temp and do water changes, make sure to vac to gravel.
> ...



You CAN medicate any fish including loaches. Loaches are among the most sensitive of freshwater fish, however, they can successfully be treated. While formalin will cook them alive (literally burn their skin off), dylox 80 will literally decompose them alive, and malachite green and acraflavine can easily harm them, other medications are completely loach safe. Furthermore, if a loach is sick and you don't treat them, they usually die. When breeding we used a protocol of only two options for dealing with sick fish: treat or euthanize. We did this because many of the diseases (including ich) can literally suffocate the fish to death, which, unquestionably causes suffering. Our treatment protocol saved well over 90% of our sick fish and we rarely euthanized them because we were quick to notice, quick to accurately diagnose, quick to begin the most effective treatment, and quick to change the treatment if need be.

Quinine sulfate is the MOST effective ich medication for both freshwater and saltwater strains, including formalin-resistant ones. It is also the quickest acting and the safest. It is fine for loaches. It really does not stress them out at all. It is a go-to drug for loach breeders among others. Other medications such as prazi, griseo, and numerous antibacterials are also safe. The newer medications are not only safer but far more effective than the drugs of 10 years ago or so. While any chemical that goes into water will put some strain on the fish, the medications I mentioned are minimal in their harm, as is there negative effect on nitrifying bacteria. However, the mainstream 'big box' stores are yet to catch up to 2011 and are still selling fish medication from the 1970s such as tetracycline, formalin, malachite green, sodium-xxxxx, etc...and so..to be blunt, they carry medications which are highly toxic (and can harm people when they handle them!!), do a poor job at curing sick fish, and do an excellent job at killing both sick and healthy fish.


----------



## Sweetie (Dec 16, 2011)

*fuzz16 wrote: *


> i dont think anyone mentioned this...but you CANNOT medicate a tank with the loaches in it because they dont have scales, the meds wont help them, but make them worse. and youd be medicating a tank of possibly perfectly fine fish and destroying their immune system.
> and if you medicate you also need to remove any carbon your running, if you are, which most people generally dont need it.
> 
> if your fish has ich, you need to find out why. it can lay dorment for months. raise the temp and do water changes, make sure to vac to gravel.
> ...


FYI fuzz16: I always treat my fish at the first sign of an illness because if it does progress the clown loach WILL die. I had 5 clown loaches at one time in the 55 gallon fishtank. One died because something caused him to get really skinny, he was fed every day. Another died because he/she got sick and I didn't catch it in time. Clown loaches are very sensitive to illnesses, so me treat my clown loach early in the illness is going to save her. She is my biggest one at 7 inches, had her for about 5 years. Inow have three clownloaches. I am not risking losing my clown loach that is sick. Also I believe that when I dose the tank with medicine to treat a sick fish, the healthy fishes immune system gets stronger. My 4 inch clown loach has not been sick since I got her. I love my clown loaches!


----------



## Sweetie (Dec 16, 2011)

*NickZac wrote: *


> fuzz16 wrote:
> 
> 
> > i dont think anyone mentioned this...but you CANNOT medicate a tank with the loaches in it because they dont have scales, the meds wont help them, but make them worse. and youd be medicating a tank of possibly perfectly fine fish and destroying their immune system.
> ...



Thank you NickZac for correcting fuzz16 about clown loaches.

I will see about getting the quinine sulfate for my clown loaches. Will it harm the goldfish, and plecostamus'? Also is it safe for bettas?


----------



## Nancy McClelland (Dec 16, 2011)

ray:


----------



## Sweetie (Dec 16, 2011)

*Nancy McClelland wrote: *


> ray:


Thank you!


----------



## NickZac (Dec 16, 2011)

Sweetie wrote:


> *NickZac wrote: *
> 
> 
> > fuzz16 wrote:
> ...



Technically you are in a bit of a jam because the goldfish is a coldwater fish and the loaches are from very warm waters (near Discus warm in some cases). Normally it is recommended against housing them together but that does not mean it cannot be done. The issue here is that bumping the temp up will aid the health of the loaches but at the expense of the goldfish. At 72, the health is favoring the goldfish at the expense of the health of the loaches (79-82 seems ideal for the loaches from what I have read and learned first hand). The other issue is that goldfish produce an enormous amount of waste which is thought to overwhelm the systems of some tropical fish. Their ammonia production is monumental due to the waste they produce. If your pH is below 7, then ammonia becomes ammonium and that particular issue is not a problem as ammonium is non toxic. If your pH is 7.0 or above, watching the ammonia is a must given the medication could start a chain reaction leading to a huge ammonia spike, and loaches do not deal well with even slight ammonia levels. However, I know very little about housing goldfish with tropicals as I only have done tropical fish myself. I do not know much about goldfish but quinine is safe for Koi, which are a type of goldfish and so I would assume it is safe.


----------



## Sweetie (Dec 16, 2011)

I do have a 10 gallon fishtank but all three goldfish are big and they would over crowd the 10 gallon fishtank. I tried putting one goldfish in the 10 gallon and the fish is big, so all three of them are not going to be very happy in the 10 gallon.

Ok thank you! I will look for the quinine and use that the next time my clown loach(es) is/are sick.


----------



## fuzz16 (Dec 17, 2011)

you take a med long enough, your body becomes immune and so it is recomended you QT and treat them seperatly. 

it is stressful for fish to be medicated, taken whatever into their body that they dont need.just because it is something that is supposed to help them, doesnt mean that it is good for them or okay for them. any medicine is never good for anything: plants, fish, animals, people. 

Scaleless fish should be medicated with caution, cats and loaches are one thing, but even more so carefully with rays and momyrids. 

instead of medicating when things get sick, why not, like i said and was blatantly ignored, figure out why and how the illness was introduced to your tank and find a way to keep it from happening again. any good fishkeeper who respects the hobby will recomend water changes and temp rise before medicating, as like me, they see medicating as a last resort.

just because someone doesnt have a reaction that they can see, doesnt mean there are things going on that they cannot see and you could have a different reaction.


----------



## NickZac (Dec 17, 2011)

fuzz16 wrote:


> you take a med long enough, your body becomes immune and so it is recomended you QT and treat them seperatly.
> 
> it is stressful for fish to be medicated, taken whatever into their body that they dont need.just because it is something that is supposed to help them, doesnt mean that it is good for them or okay for them. any medicine is never good for anything: plants, fish, animals, people.
> 
> ...



Medicating should be a last resort. This is absolutely true. And water parameters should be checked in times of both sick and health (we checked them daily). 9 times out of 10 the cause is environmental and the treatment can be environmental as well. That does NOT mean you cannot medicate a fish because it is more sensitive. Many fish that are more sensitive to medications are also more sensitive to disease severity. Also, many fish that are more sensitive to both of those are even more sensitive to incorrect water parameters.

My discussions to medicate are implied to only advocate medication if environmental causes can be eliminated. If you have bad water parameters, you can dump in all the medication in that you want to and the outcome is usually death. It is worth noting that even if you realize you have bad water parameters and you have fish with a severe illness, just correcting the water parameters will still usually result in dead fish. I always advocate the use of a QT tank but not everyone has the ability to do so or is willing to do so. Ideally, you isolate any individual fish showing signs of illness from other, presumably, healthy fish and you observe everyone closely.

A hypothetical example is that if the fish is covered with a parasite and your nitrate readings are very high (without other issues), it should be assumed that 1) high nitrate readings lead to susceptibility through possible nitrate poisoning and 2) the parasite took advantage of the fish's subsequent weakness(es). The solution is then to 1) eliminate the high nitrate readings and 2) kill the parasite without killing the fish. Trillions of microorganisms live in any fish tank and many are harmful when the fish becomes susceptible. It is much like how we are covered in staph bacteria but non-complicated staff only causes an infection if there is a weakness in the host. For the fish, this weakness comes from stress, usually through bad water conditions. The way we differ from fish is that we have full, complete, and total control over their entire world. This can be a blessing to some fish and doom to others.

The bigger worry of resistance is the pathogens becoming immune more so than the fish although I think this is what you are saying. Traditional antibiotics no longer work in many cases. This is due to antibiotic resistance from human usage, largely from improper use. Traditional fish meds like tetracycline and erythromycin have well documented issues of resistance (in both people and fish). Even the more recent fish medications like oxytet, minocycline and others have issues. The general trend has been revisiting sulfa drugs that were stopped years ago due to 'more state of the art' medications. For both human and fish use, these old sulfa drugs have found a modern value. Many of these sulfa drugs have also been found to stress the fish significantly less. This is why if choosing to medicate and it important to remember that not all medications are made the same.

Indeed scaleless fish are more sensitivity however that does not mean do not medicate them. Loaches are perhaps one of the most susceptible fish to both ich and velvet (especially in lower temp community tanks). If left untreated, they often die. While many loaches can withstand a heat elevation up to the high 80s and even very low 90s, this in itself can stress the fish and its odds of killing certain parasites is less than it was years ago as the ich parasite has developed itself.


----------



## Sweetie (Dec 17, 2011)

Again thank you NickZac!

fuzz16: I am ignoring you because it seems like you are not seeing that clown loaches need to be medicated right away at the first sign of illness, before it progresses. If I did a water change and the illness got worse in my clown loach then medicated her and she died because of it, I would be very upset. After treatment, I will be doing a complete water change (the tank needs it). I am not going to do any water changes as of yet until after the treatments because I am not going to stress my sick clown loach. Besides with clown loaches the illnesses they get spread pretty quickly and you have to treat it early otherwise you run the risk of losing them to the illness. Plus I cannot separate three clown loaches.


----------



## Sweetie (Dec 17, 2011)

Just found something out about clown loaches:

Due to their sensitivity to pollutants and nitrates, Clown Loaches are totally unsuitable for newly set up aquaria and should only be introduced to established, fully cycled tanks.

I didn't know this, but my 55 gallon was fully cycled before I added them to the tank.


----------



## NickZac (Dec 18, 2011)

Sweetie wrote:


> Just found something out about clown loaches:
> 
> Due to their sensitivity to pollutants and nitrates, Clown Loaches are totally unsuitable for newly set up aquaria and should only be introduced to established, fully cycled tanks.
> 
> I didn't know this, but my 55 gallon was fully cycled before I added them to the tank.



Loaches are like discus in that ANY ammonia levels will quickly kill them. A quick temp flux of only 2+ degrees is enough to seriously harm them, and a quick pH flux of .2 or more can send them into shock. Even a light .25 ammonia reading is enough to stress them to the point of death. If there is any ammonia in the tank at all with sensitive species like that, you need to be sure the pH is below 7.0 or use a neutralizer if it is above 7.0. Loaches like softer water and so keeping the pH below 7 is pretty common. Many types of drift wood, some which is found in their native habitat, do this naturally, and they also release trace elements into the water which is beneficial for development (and some plecos eat drift wood).

For established tanks with these sensitive fish, the biggest threat to them is nitrates. High nitrates can cause considerable harm and unless your tank is heavily planted, then the only real way to remove them is regular water changes. Another big threat is hexamita (hole in the head), which is now thought to occur from a lack of essential trace elements in the water (and NOT a parasite as previously suspected). Tap water (and RO) lacks many of the trace elements found in their native waters and it can lead to poor development and even disease. I have always used trace element liquid additives with all of my fish. If you use trace elements, you will see better coloration and more vibrant fish, provided you are using the right type. Feeding a high quality food with trace minerals is also a must. Fuzz16 makes a good point in that prevention is important as is maintaining the highest quality water quality given you have fish which are almost as sensitive to water quality issues as discus.


----------



## lilylop (Dec 18, 2011)

I keep discus and yeah they are very sensitive to anything. Hopefully you get this issue solvevd soon


----------



## fuzz16 (Dec 18, 2011)

goes back to breeding as well. get a discus from bad breeding and it wont come close to anything from a decent breeder...BYB vs hans. nice knowing theres other discus keepers here 

And your welcome to ignore me, all good and well, but my information is correct from my research and experiance and it is your choice, your actions to do when it comes to your fish. as a public forum, i was giving an opinion.

Water changes wont stressfish, actually its like a rain or drought, new water coming in, as long as the temp is fluctuated greatly, which can be resolved via warming the water before putting it in tank.

whenever you add fish to a tank, it will add to bioload, and then the bacteria will have to catch up and so there may be a nitrite/nitrate spike. hence why you dont buy a ton of fish at once, you get a few at a time. 
low levels of nitrates are normal, under 5ppm is nothing to worry about. nitrites and ammonia is bad. 

you also have to keep in mind the amount of stress they go under from importing and then thrown into tanks, being netted, sloshed around in a bag on the way home, then introduced to a new place.

live plants help any fish tank, mosses and java fern/anubias are low light plants that require no nutrient supplients other than maybe column, but they wont suffer without additivis. but they will work like filters and help the water quality.

and ick is like the flu, its always there, just something makes it comes out.


----------



## Sweetie (Dec 18, 2011)

I will be preventing my fish from getting sick by doing water changes and testing the water. I will be testing the water weekly after I am done treating my sick clown loach.

fuzz16: the prevention part that you said was correct. You also said that I cannot medicate clown loaches, which is not true as NickZac mentioned. Also you said that I need to quarintine(sp) my sick clown loach; I have three clown loaches, I cannot separate them, they cannot be alone, the lonliness will kill them because they are social fish. If I had 4 clown loaches I would be able to separate them, meaning take the sick one and a healthy one and put them into a quarintine(sp) tank and just medicate. But with 3 clown loaches, cannot do that.

But yes I will be testing the water every week and doing water changes as needed to prevent illnesses. After treatment and things are okay again, I will move my goldfish over to the 10 gallon and do weekly water changes with that tank. I will put my doubletail betta in a one gallon fishtank that I still have.


----------



## Sweetie (Dec 18, 2011)

*NickZac wrote: *


> Sweetie wrote:
> 
> 
> > Just found something out about clown loaches:
> ...


So I will watch the levels and make sure that they stay normal. I bet that all the levels are normal, but I will be checking as soon as I am done treating my sick clown loach.


----------



## Sweetie (Dec 18, 2011)

*lilylop wrote: *


> I keep discus and yeah they are very sensitive to anything. Hopefully you get this issue solvevd soon



Thank you! NickZac and I are staying in touch through this whole thing, because I am still worried about my sick clown loach. I am watching my sick clown loach like a hawk when I am awake and making sure that she doesn't quit fighting this illness that she has.

I am hoping that she gets better after the ich treatment. I have done the fungus treatment and the fungus is better, now I am treating her with ich medicine because she was scratching on the rocks and had ich on her fins underneath. I am hoping that she doesn't have a bacterial infection, but I will dose for that if she does. I sure do love my clown loach.

FYI lilylop: I have three clown loaches, two plecos, three goldfish, two bettas, one black skirt fish. I want to get more clown loaches, but I will wait until I have everything working right again before I get more clown loaches.


----------



## NickZac (Dec 18, 2011)

fuzz16 wrote:


> goes back to breeding as well. get a discus from bad breeding and it wont come close to anything from a decent breeder...BYB vs hans. nice knowing theres other discus keepers here
> 
> And your welcome to ignore me, all good and well, but my information is correct from my research and experiance and it is your choice, your actions to do when it comes to your fish. as a public forum, i was giving an opinion.
> 
> ...



I love Hans! I have been in Hans' facility and all I can say is he is the most methodical person I have ever dealt with and the ultimate authority in discus. His are def the best of the best. The only discus I ever dealt with were from Hans despite breeding pairs costing as much as a grand and more!!! I would not sell to anyone who would mix my discus with Asian discus.

What did you use for spawning? I played with a variety of clay pots, hand-made slate concoctions, PVC pipes, and small cones (yes, I stole that method from Hans). Ultimately, I wound up covering a small cone in slate which worked pretty well, but a damned Fire Red pair I had would still lay eggs in other places just to mess with me. If I put a cone in on the left, they laid eggs on the glass wall to the right. If I put three pots in the center then they laid eggs on the live plants in the back. If I put PVC pipe in, they laid eggs on the filter tube. Each time they did it they would look at me the next morning almost to say "what now sucka?!?!"


----------



## Sweetie (Dec 18, 2011)

*NickZac wrote: *


> fuzz16 wrote:
> 
> 
> > goes back to breeding as well. get a discus from bad breeding and it wont come close to anything from a decent breeder...BYB vs hans. nice knowing theres other discus keepers here
> ...


NickZac: Why not put the items that you have for spawning throughout the tank, that way you have outsmarted the fish. That way you can look at them and be like "what now suckas?!?!"


----------



## Sweetie (Dec 20, 2011)

Update on my sick clown loach:

She is doing okay, still sick. I tested my water and the results are all normal. The ammonia in the 55 gallon tank is 0ppm, nitrate is 0ppm, pH is 6.5ppm, nitrite is 0ppm. Which indicates that the reason my clown loach is sick is not because of the water, it is because of stress.

I also tested my 10 gallon, and the results are normal. Ammonia is .25ppm, nitrite is 0ppm, nitrate is 0ppm, pH is 6.2ppm.

I am glad that the tests are normal. I will be doing weekly water tests and twice a month water changes from now on.


----------



## fuzz16 (Dec 20, 2011)

*NickZac wrote: *


> fuzz16 wrote:
> 
> 
> > goes back to breeding as well. get a discus from bad breeding and it wont come close to anything from a decent breeder...BYB vs hans. nice knowing theres other discus keepers here
> ...



JEALOUS! I have never been to his place but we emailed back and forth for awhile, great guy and the popularity has def not gone to his head. But you do know hans doesnt breed them? their all Stendkers! I was amazed to find this out. he explained to me that Stendker breeds them, culls them, and raises them mostly. All the fish That Hans has at his facility are shipped from Germany from Standkers facility. In the verbalagreement (they are close friends)Hans is not allowed to raise any discus spawned from the proven pairs shipped over, he sends the fry with the bought pair or a kind customer for free! The idea is that this way Stendkers line survive if anything ever happens to the ones in Germany AND if shipping is for some reason made impossible Stendker can come here and oversee the breeding and selling in US! 

On top of that, his filtration system is incredible! I dont know if you got to see it and explained in depth but i got a bit of explatnation on it and its impressive the amount of work and ideas that have been put into it!

Never found the attraction to the asain discus...are they the ones who started hi-fins? thats just...dumb. i dont get that. their all for pretty big and new instead of traditional lines and variations. I am a wild fan too, love the tekes but never got ahold of any.

I never had any luck with spawning...mine were in a community tank and i had only one pair, who would lay eggs every few months but they never hatched and I was a single mom working full time and part time and didnt have time to set up the 29g. So currently dont have any, but am waiting for the brain issues and nuero to clear me and then were getting a house and i will be investing in a couple 120s or 220 and about a dozen 29g/20gL lol...wanna try some okefenokee pygmys too, they seem fun


----------



## fuzz16 (Dec 20, 2011)

*Sweetie wrote: *


> Update on my sick clown loach:
> 
> She is doing okay, still sick. I tested my water and the results are all normal. The ammonia in the 55 gallon tank is 0ppm, nitrate is 0ppm, pH is 6.5ppm, nitrite is 0ppm. Which indicates that the reason my clown loach is sick is not because of the water, it is because of stress.
> 
> ...



do you have hiding places for your clown loach? their not a fan of bright lights or being picked on...or boisterous fish  

ich is a pretty common thing and the strains are getting stronger...so it could be a chance thing, and not due to stress or tank situation at all. my pair of eartheaters had it, but i raised the temp and it was gone in two days...cept female still has a couple spots. it happens. 

and thats weird your pH is so different, do you have driftwood or peat in the 10g?


----------



## Sweetie (Dec 21, 2011)

*fuzz16 wrote: *


> *Sweetie wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Update on my sick clown loach:
> ...



I have, in the 55 gallon tank,a big rock and a small holy treasure chest. The smallest clown loach hides in the treasure chest as she can fit in there.

In the 10 gallon I have a few plastic plants and gravel. 

I moved my goldfish, all three to the 10 gallon, because the biggest one was picking on the sick clown loach.

I noticed yesterday that my black skirt tetra has popeye. I will be treating the fish with erythromycin. I just hope the goldfish won't eat the tablet before it dissolves in the water. I am thinking of putting the net in the water and dropping the tablet in the net and letting it dissolve that way, but I am afraid that the net wouldn't allow the dissolved tablet to be in the water. Or should I catch the black skirt tetra and drop the tablet in the net with him/her?


----------



## fuzz16 (Dec 21, 2011)

weird, popeye is normally a sign of bad water conditions and yours are stable, i dont have any personal experience with it though. the net idea sounds fine, no reason to stress the guy out though and catch him in the net too.
make sure you take carbon out of your filter, as carbon will soak up the meds. 

and fun fact, goldfish have teeny stomachs but no sense to stop eating (lack the nerve we do to say were full) and their gorge and most of the food is wasted, hence why they are such messy little critters and recomended big tanks with big filters  what kind are they? you have a good filter?
when kept to small spaces, they will continue to grow on the inside, but not outside, so they get stunted and funny looking until their insides are smooshed causing other issues. 
goldfish will eat plants...but i would say go find some duckweed or water wisteria (pets mart carries wisteria in their little tubey dealios!) and the duckweed is a PITA but itd be good with the goldies, help keep the water params down and you will be sad to find it half gone one morning. places will generally give it to you free, but chain stores i dont think will have it. live plants work as a filter though...could also do wendtiis. low light and pretty tough


----------



## Sweetie (Dec 21, 2011)

*fuzz16 wrote: *


> weird, popeye is normally a sign of bad water conditions and yours are stable, i dont have any personal experience with it though. the net idea sounds fine, no reason to stress the guy out though and catch him in the net too.
> make sure you take carbon out of your filter, as carbon will soak up the meds.
> 
> and fun fact, goldfish have teeny stomachs but no sense to stop eating (lack the nerve we do to say were full) and their gorge and most of the food is wasted, hence why they are such messy little critters and recomended big tanks with big filters  what kind are they? you have a good filter?
> ...


The goldfish are just regular goldfish from the petstore, my neighbor had them and she gave me three of them as she didn't want them anymore. I have a Top Fin filter on the 10g.

Well I have just dropped the tablet in and watched the fish, they didn't go after it. Although I had to get my doubletail betta and put him in a 1 gallon tank because he was acting like he wasn't liking the medicine.

The reason why my black skirt tetra has popeye is because the doubletail betta was picking on him/her, he would flare his gills all the time at the black skirt tetra and attacking it. So that is the reason why my black skirt tetra has popeye and I am treating it.

Right now I have no money for anything, but will save up money to get stuff for the fishtanks later on down the road.

Also I didn't know that about goldfish, about them growing in small spaces still and their growth being stunted and getting problems. I will watch out for that.


----------



## fuzz16 (Dec 21, 2011)

Top Fin makes a lot of different filters, all made for diff sized tanks. should be a number on it maybe? 10, 20, 30. im not sure how they name theirs. keeping up on water changes will be fine though, twice a month will be a lot better for them than none at all. 

well there are many types of goldifsh, fancys like orandas. or comets, which are commonly used as feeders. and they can grow up to a foot long if given adequete room and could live up to 20 years in a good envirement. goldfish in small tanks is cruel, but sadly reptiles and fish are not reconized as having enough standing to matter to state to make laws like other pets. 

and popeye isnt stress related...its from just bad water. if it gets worse, his eye could fall out and infection kill him. def watch for other fish picking on him though, or at his eye. id do a 1g water change min daily on his tank, or more if you can, it could only be good for them. 

and if you have a local fish club, maybe you could see if anyone is willing to give you some java moss or wisteria, naja (guppy grass). their quick growing once estabished. i could send you some once it gets to growing though too. but i have mostly high light plants, but if my moss ever decides to take off, be happy to send you a bunch. makes good fry housing too. aquabid or ebay is super cheap too, cheaper than pet stores, but its sometimes too cold for anyone to ship this time of year


----------



## Sweetie (Dec 21, 2011)

*fuzz16 wrote: *


> Top Fin makes a lot of different filters, all made for diff sized tanks. should be a number on it maybe? 10, 20, 30. im not sure how they name theirs. keeping up on water changes will be fine though, twice a month will be a lot better for them than none at all.
> 
> well there are many types of goldifsh, fancys like orandas. or comets, which are commonly used as feeders. and they can grow up to a foot long if given adequete room and could live up to 20 years in a good envirement. goldfish in small tanks is cruel, but sadly reptiles and fish are not reconized as having enough standing to matter to state to make laws like other pets.
> 
> ...



Top Fin 10 is the filter that I have on my 10g. I will be doing water changes twice a month with my 10g and my 55g tanks. Also my one gallon tanks as they have my bettas in them. Yes my bettas are separated.

I found a fish forum so I may ask them if anyone is close to me that can send some to me. I may wait until the weather warms up a bit to ask though, that way I will have some money for the java moss, etc.

I would love some java moss from you if you don't mind, I can put it in both tanks and that may help the clown loaches.


----------



## Sweetie (Dec 21, 2011)

I will also be testing my water weekly to make sure that the parameters stay normal.


----------



## fuzz16 (Dec 22, 2011)

when i get some growing ill PM you, it grows slow though, but once it starts it doesnt stop  and also when you do your water change, the water you pull out of the tank, wash your filter pad in that. keeps bacteria from dying and still gets it cleaned up


----------



## Sweetie (Dec 22, 2011)

Ok cool! Yeah I have an idea for the java moss, I am going to put it around the big rock that I have in the 55 gallon tank. Thank you fuzz16


----------



## NickZac (Dec 27, 2011)

fuzz16 wrote:


> *NickZac wrote: *
> 
> 
> > fuzz16 wrote:
> ...




I may have been told this but I did not realize ALL of his fish were imported from them! I figured he bred at least some (although I know he gets shipments at the airport which he personally picks up either weekly or bi-weekly [Mondays I believe])! That is crazy! They do a good job culling. While it isn't a happy topic, it seems to be the only way to keep healthy fish. Luckily, the parents I bred did most of this on their own and so we left them with the fry for quite some time. It seems the Asian breeders pull the parents as soon as the spawn is complete. I assume they use meth blue to prevent the eggs from fungusing over and do not cull much or at all. I base this off of seeing many Asian discus with physical deformaties, some pretty severe. Most of those fish have little resistance to disease and they often die when sick regardless of the treatment. I have also read that combining the Asian and German discus can result in them exchanging diseases with each other that the other has no natural tolerance to. I do not know if that is true or not as I really would not do anything except with Hans' stock...after all, they are the only people who give us a REAL fire red. 

I believe the Asians are the ones that started the high fin and oddball shaped trend. I am not sure if that is a genetic trait or a series of deformaties from lack of culling, but it seems pretty common. The wild discus are beautiful in their own way. If I still kept fish, I would do a heavily planted 90-100 gallon softwater tank and stock it with a school of them. Pygmys are neat looking fish although I know little about them.


----------



## NickZac (Dec 27, 2011)

fuzz16 wrote:


> when i get some growing ill PM you, it grows slow though, but once it starts it doesnt stop  and also when you do your water change, the water you pull out of the tank, wash your filter pad in that. keeps bacteria from dying and still gets it cleaned up




Sooooooo true. It is the easiest way to prevent a post-cleaning ammonia spike.


----------



## Sweetie (Dec 27, 2011)

*NickZac wrote: *


> fuzz16 wrote:
> 
> 
> > when i get some growing ill PM you, it grows slow though, but once it starts it doesnt stop  and also when you do your water change, the water you pull out of the tank, wash your filter pad in that. keeps bacteria from dying and still gets it cleaned up
> ...


Coooooool! I will do that with each water change that I do.


----------



## Sweetie (Dec 29, 2011)

An update on my biggest clown loach:

As of this morning, she is doing much better. She was hanging out at the top of the tank ever since she was sick with the fungus and ich. I kept trying to figure out why, so I finally did some research on swim bladder disease and I found out that that was what she had. So I gave her some peas to eat. This morning I found her hanging at the bottom of the 55 gallon fishtank swimming better than she was before.

I am just so proud of myself for finding out what was wrong with her after she recovered from the fungus and ich attack that she had. I am a member on a couple fish forums and I posted on one of them, Loaches Online Forum, and I didn't get any answers/replies at all. I was getting upset because I felt that I was going to lose her before getting any answers to why she was hanging out at the top of the tank. I am glad that I found out why she was hanging out at the top of the tank, now I can treat her for the swim bladder issue.


----------

