# Do you believe in Cesar Milans ways of dog training?



## 1357bunnylover (Dec 3, 2012)

After reading a previous post i see some people believe in his dominance theory and some don't. I honestly hate him and would never use any of his methods on my dogs. All the dominance theory and being the 'pack leader' stuff is stupid in my opinion. 

What is your opinion on him and his methods of training??


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## Kipcha (Dec 3, 2012)

Haha, I gave my 2 cents on this earlier, just wanted to reinforce that I do not believe in his training method at all. The whole alpha theory is outdated and the study that lead to the theory is flawed.


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## Hyatt101 (Dec 3, 2012)

The training he does is genuine training, but I don't feel like debating about it. You have to research dogs for a long time and know everything about them before you can really come to a conclusion. Some of the stuff he may do to get on T.V. , but most of it is true . Like i said in the other thread, alpha theory does exist clearly in training, but this is a rabbit forum, not a dog forum, so best this discussion be dropped


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## 1357bunnylover (Dec 3, 2012)

This is called 'Let your hare down' and it says 'talk about anything other than rabbits'. I think it's healthy to have a debate but obviously if people start getting nasty about it i'll delete it. I just like to hear why people do believe in him. You believe in him because you believe in alpha based training, i don't. But there was nothing to get nasty about i just want to see what everyone's opinions on him are. I just thought i'd add, the 'alpha' based training was a test type of thing taken out on wolves, and dogs are not wolves which shows that it can't be true. Dogs are so so different to wolves.


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## JBun (Dec 3, 2012)

Charlotte, just so you know, Christina isn't an adult, and I just think that she doesn't understand that it's ok to discuss this kind of thing here, as long as no one is trying to cause an argument, and everyone stays civil.

It's ok Christina. This is a 'let your hare down' thread, so it's ok to talk about non-bunny related things. I don't think anyone is trying to argue here. Just interested in other's opinions 

I personally like the way Victoria Stilwell from 'It's Me or the Dog' does her dog training, but I'm unsure how that positive reinforcement training could be applied to rabbits, to solve behavior issues. I give my rabbit treats and she still tries to bite me when I reach in her cage because of her cage aggression. Anyone know a good bunny trainer?


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## Hyatt101 (Dec 3, 2012)

Oh sorry, I didn't see this was in the let your hare down section!!


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## agnesthelion (Dec 3, 2012)

I completely agree with Cesar Milans type of training. BUT it has to be applied correctly and to the right dog. It's about knowing each dogs personality. I used this type of method with my rottie and she was a wonderful dog. But, on the flip side, I helped with a greyhound rescue a few years back and those retired dogs were already so timid that any type of firmness could send them into their shell. 
The pack leader theory has not been debunked. There are just newer theories and people who disagree and prefer a more positive approach to training. Which is fine. I tend to think people humanize dogs and think that being alpha hurts their feelings. It doesn't. Dogs crave leadership and control (in the right way). Now, I do not support abuse, hitting, yelling, aggressiveness at all. But i have helped train dogs for years, I have attended classes and researched all types of training...including positive approach training. And for the most part I see better results and agree with cesar Milan type training, or pack leader training.


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## TinksMama (Dec 3, 2012)

Comment Deleted by Tink's Mama


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## Nela (Dec 3, 2012)

I see dog training the same way I see raising kids. If you do not discipline children properly and teach them right behavior vs bad behavior, they will just end up with rowdy kids that don't understand authority and will just do anything they want whenever they want. They will start believing they are the 'boss' and I see doings doing the same. Is it out of malice? No, I don't believe so. I just think that if they think they can get away with it, they will keep doing it. Same applies to kids.

Do I agree with everything he says? No. Do I find him very good in some instances? Yes. Do I hate him? No. Do I love him? Sometimes, especially if the owners are being particularly stupid. 

To be honest though, in the pet world, I have found most people to be very black and white in their ways of thinking so I doubt this discussion will really end up being more than people just stating if they love him or hate him.


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## agnesthelion (Dec 3, 2012)

Well said Nela!


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## Hyatt101 (Dec 3, 2012)

I agree, Nela that was a good way to put it! It's just my opinion, but I do think Cesaer Milan's stuff works


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## 1357bunnylover (Dec 3, 2012)

I'm not an adult either lol  yeah I must admit, I shouldn't have really said i hate Cesar but I do hate some if his techniques like the 'tsst' and the jab/ touch thing at the side of the neck/ ribs. I'm not one of these people that think he's an animal abuser and that, and some if his things I do think are good like the way he he says you train the human and that makes the dog behave better, and how he teaches people that dogs needs walked and they are not humans. Some of his clips make me mad though like one where he picks an adult dachund by the scruff and just hangs him there, and when he nearly killed a dog by over exercising it on a treadmill but some of the things he says does make sense. But I am just someone that does not believe in the alpha and the dominance thing. I have 2 dogs that are very well behaved that were trained through positive reinforcement, but every one is different like everyone brings their kids up different ways and think that you should bring a child up this way and that way, it's the same with dogs really..


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## KittyKatMe (Dec 3, 2012)

I also love Victoria Stillwell's training; positive reinforcement and letting the dogs figure out what they're doing wrong. I used it on my own dog. I strongly dislike Cesar Milan. I don't believe in jabbing a dog on the side or being all grabby. I think the dog responds more in fear than respect. I couldn't disagree more with his techniques. I know people will try to tell me otherwise, but that type or training is just not me.


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## 1357bunnylover (Dec 3, 2012)

I dont think he really knows the dogs body language, in one of his clips this dog is food aggressive and Cesar keeps on getting up closer and closer while the dog is growling, then the dog stops growling a gives him calming signals and signals yo try and diffuse the situation but Cesar just keeps on saying he has not surrendered and after the dog gave him many signals to try and diffuse the situation he then had to defend himself because he felt threatened because Cesar kept on cornering him which then made the dog bite him, this is what you see a lot on his shows.. The dog giving loads of calming signals to Cesar but Cesar just ignores them and then gets bitten. Also, when you see the dog that only a few hours ago was trying to attack other dogs on walks, after Cesar spends time with him the dog is so knackered that when a another dog does go past he has so energy left to bark and try to attack so I don't think he actually helps the dog, he just gets it knackered then once he sees they are really tired he brings them out and videos the dog being 'good' to put on his show.


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## kmaben (Dec 3, 2012)

I kind of do and do not understand the "alpha" dog thing. Yes dogs are domesticated but just like cats a house dog can turn feral if left on their own long enough. They can form packs and an "alpha" is elected to lead the pack. So the domesticated dog can have a pack mentality. You as a person thrown in with a bunch of unknown individuals a "leader" type personality will emerge. Your dog in my opinion is no different. Every species has a pecking order of some kind. Does your dog see you as a dog? No his nose wont allow that. But does he have to figure out where he falls in the pecking order, absolutely.


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## audrinasmommy88 (Dec 4, 2012)

I believe that you do have to show dominance over your dog. Especially in large breeds. We have a rottweiler/beagle mix. The rottweiler in her makes her very protective (which is good in most situations) but the beagle in her makes her extremely stubborn and not listen. We had to establish dominance with her early. With everyone in the house. Even my 3 year old. My daughter was 1 when we got Bailey. We started teaching audrina how to feed her. It started there. We didn't want the dog seeing audrina as inferior. So audrina fed her at meal times, gave her treats. When we started teaching Bailey basic commands, audrina was part of that too. Now, if audrina tells bailey no, or go lay down, she listens to her just as well as she listens to me. If you dont establish this with a dog, they will try to run your house, because they think there is no authority...i firmly believe in alpha and dominance


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## MiserySmith (Dec 4, 2012)

I liked the episode where he got bitten. I think he's just full of himself and his techniques only work on VERY specific dogs and NO ONE other than a professional should try it unless they'd like to get bitten also.
This is my opinion.


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## ldoerr (Dec 4, 2012)

I personally REALLY like cesar's way of training. I have read all of his books and studdied it a bit. I have applied it to my dogs and they are SOOOOOOOO much better because of it. His methods work if you do them right. Dogs techincally are wolfs. They are breed from wolfs many years ago, but still have the traits of them. Some domestic dogs even look like real wolfs. The test to see if animals are the same species still it to cross breed them and have them produce fertile offspring together. Dogs and wolfs can still do that so they are still the same species. Dogs will if need be revert back to their wolf instincts and form packs and all that sort of stuff to live, survive and thrive. Cesar speaks the truth with his methods. I am a firm believer in them. His methods have been proven time and time again. Sure not EVERY single time it will work, but no mater the method it will never work 100% of the time. In one of his books he states that he has only ever had 2 dogs that could not be helped out of the 1000s he has worked with.


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## MLS (Dec 5, 2012)

Personally I think Cesar's methods are completely bunk and that his alpha theories are both outdated and garbage. It's been proven that only primitive breeds of dog ( huskies, chows, shiba inu, etc. ) can understand wolf-style pack body language and even they respond differently than actual wolves. I use positive and food based methods and it requires patience and sticking to your guns to work but I feel that it doesn't backslide as much as more negative reinforcement and discipline based methods. I feel like Cesar's methods put dogs into situations where they will fail and than punishing them rather than teaching the owner to keep their dog in situations where they will not be forced to fail and redirecting their bad habits into more healthy/appropriate channels. He also seems to work more on shutting down unwanted behaviors which I feel can backfire more easily/create anxious and nervous dogs that are more prone to "snap out of the blue" because they've created a dog that is taught by fear to not show things like growling when its annoyed, which could prevent a bite when the dog is annoyed as that would be a CLEAR tell that the dog was upset and needed space which should be respected, rather than teaching dogs to redirect their behaviors in more positive and acceptable ways. That and Cesar has no dog work experience aside from his "Mexican farm dog experience" and working at a groomers. He also has no actual degree in animal behavior or indeed, any actual credentials of any kind, at all.
These are just my opinions and just the way that I like to do things Not calling anyone out or trying to start drama lol However if anyone wants to learn a bit more about why I feel the way I do or just read something better articulated coming from people who disagree with Cesar than what I typed up these are some nice links to read (they're brief) : http://www.apdt.com/petowners/choose/dominance.aspx/ http://avsabonline.org/uploads/position_statements/dominance_statement.pdf


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## Watermelons (Dec 5, 2012)

You have to think too... Are they really going to show you the ones Cesar cant fix on TV? Lets see an episode where he does he poke thing and the dog bites him back and takes off a finger. I much prefered the dog whisperer, but still prefer positive reinforcement untill every method has been attempted.
I've been training for a few years now, and I still struggle to watch an entire episode of Cesar.... I think I would rather go to the dentist!


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## whitelop (Dec 5, 2012)

Since this all started with my dog, I feel I should weigh in a little. I don't really know how I feel about Cesar. I've never really watched the show and I didn't train my dog the way that he trains dogs, nor have I ever trained a dog like that. Honestly, I can't get passed his tiny little attitude filled body to watch that show. 
I think that his methods work for some dogs and some personalities. But I think that it depends on different dogs needing different training methods. My mom loves that guy, she tries to teach her chihauhauh the way he does and the dog gets scared and cowers away. It doesn't work on him. 
It would also not work on my dog. He is a little skittish, because he came from my constantly yelling FIL. He is a dingo, so he has a high prey drive. He also herds our chickens and cats, but never my son or rabbit. He listens like there is no tomorrow, he responds to just my snapping. I can say his name one time when he's out and he'll come back to me. He was never aggressive until the other evening when he snapped. But that was an isolated incident and it hasn't happened since, nor do I believe it will happen again. I'm now taking measures to prevent it from ever happening. 

As for Cesar, he is all a matter of opinion. Everyone could go back and forth all day saying they love him or they hate him or they're indifferent.

I think Lauren said something about dogs forming dog packs when they have to, that is completely true. If you go into the mountains of NC, TN or WV; you'll find all kinds of domestic dogs turned wild, running in packs to survive. We have a close family friend who grew up in the hills of WV and he said that people would just let their dogs loose, and eventually the dogs started to band together and they would terrorize the hills. Like to the point where you would have to kill them, because they would come at you like you where their prey. They went from someones dog to a completely wild animal. I guess that would be evolution.


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## MLS (Dec 5, 2012)

Dogs do form roaming packs but their social hierarchy and group dynamic works in a completely different way from actual wolf packs. Just wanted to pipe in on that tidbit


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## fuzz16 (Dec 5, 2012)

i want to clarify this....dogs are not wolves. they do not have a pack mentality the same as a wolfs family pack structure. Even wolf dogs have trouble integrating into wolf packs in sanctuararys and normally housed separately. 

my opinion about this glorrified dog trainers who get their own show is kinda "meh". every dog is different and requires different training. toward an abused, afraid dog...he would come off as a threat and send the dog back into himself and make things worse. 


my dog was abused badly..if you touch his belly or chest to fast he yelps still after 1.5 years of being with us. if i try anything dominent with him, he shuts down. he sulks, he wont eat. praise and lots of treats and slow movements and positive reinforcement is what he needs.
my sisters dog...is a spoiled brat of a mutt...shes a 70lbs dane mix who is hot headed and spacey and has a high prey drive. she doesnt respond to treats or praise, she expects it. she needs a stern tone and if you slip from that she gets worse...3 years old and always been able to take anywhere, she is super friendly. she started killing birds in the yard, then attacked a dog at the dog park when i moved farther away...my 3x a week being around her and working with her a few hours doesnt happen now and she has gotten badly messed up.

every dog is different (like kids! good way to compare, whoever said it earlier) and needs different techniques.


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## Nelsons_Mom (Dec 5, 2012)

The guy who wrote the book on Alpha Theory has been trying to get his book off of the shelf and out of print since then. Because it was a misfounded study and has been disproven by every behaviorist since then.

But, even if it was accurate (which it isn't) it would be irrelavant anyway because dogs are not wolves! They have been bred for 15000 years to communicate with humans! They can read our facial expressions. They use the same eye movement with the same accuracy as humans do when reading eacg other's faces. They are not wolves! And comparing them to wolves is like trying to learn human social structure by researching a chimpanzee: pointless and extremely misinformed if not idiotic.

People keep bringing up that wild dogs live in packs. Well, yes they do. however, the social structure of feral dogs is extremely UNLIKE those of wolves. Dog packs have members that come and go without a defined leader like in a wolf pack.

Dogs don't think we're strange bipedeal hairless wolves. They are born understanding human body language (though lacking human manners, which is why we have to train them.) They want to work with us, not dominate us. especially when "dominance" in behaviorist terms means "in control of resources". Since dogs don't have thumbs, you already win that round if you think you need it.

Ceasar Milan's methods are physically bullying and psychologically damaging. i will never understand methods that punish behavior instead of rewarding whar you DO want them to do. Theres a reason that zoos and aquariums use positive reinforcement training: it is more reliable and BUILDS trust instead of bullying an animal. It's much more reliable behavior when an animal WANTS to do a "good" behavior rather than being afraid of punishment to not do a "bad" behavior. And, in the case of zoos and aquariums, you're a lot less likely to get bitten when your animal WANTS to work with you. If only someone had told Caesar that.


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## Nelsons_Mom (Dec 5, 2012)

And, as people of freewill, you will obviously choose to train your dog however you want. i just hope it's not blindly following someone on tv who makes up crap as he goes and damages dogs for life. Because, to paraphrase Bill Nye, science is always a fact, whether you choose to believe it or not.

Ps. I wrote this on my phone so sorry for any typos.


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## Bassetluv (Dec 7, 2012)

I used to be a big fan of Cesar Millan. I still do think that some of his methods are good, but tend to disagree with many of the dominance theory approaches, especially when it comes to working with an aggressive dog. For instance, my border collie Izzy developed food aggression at a very young age (he had it when I bought him, but - my fault - I didn't properly train him to accept that people can / should be allowed near his food dish). Right now if I were to attempt a dominant approach with Izzy when working with him on food aggression, I can guarantee that it would exacerbate the problem exponentially. A dog with food aggression (or really, any kind of aggression) is reacting out of fear. A fear-based dog needs to be taught how to re-think...to understand that there is no phantom threat to their dish, their toys, the mailman approaching the door, etc. Alpha-roll a dog with fear-based aggression and you will most likely wind up having to get stitches in a limb. The first time Izzy lunged at me over his food dish when he was just a few months old, I did attempt to subdue him by putting him in a passive position - on his side on the floor - and I wound up not only with a scar on my arm that was there for well over a year, but the small trust that Izzy and I had was completely broken, and it took several months of working with him in a more positive, gentle manner to earn it back again on both sides.

I won't write off Cesar Millan, and he does do some good work with dogs, but I cannot agree with the alpha-roll approach or the 'have dominance over your dog' all the time. To me, a dog/person relationship should be more of a partnership, and just as with raising children, it is a matter of earning respect and trust through positive action, words, and (always positive) corrections when necessary. There definitely is no black-and-white approach either; what works for one dog may not work for another. But in order to have a happy, healthy relationship with a dog in the home, it all has to start with respect, not dominance.


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## ani-lover (Dec 8, 2012)

i dont like his methods and i dont like how commercial he has become. 
some people are so impressed and think that he is the only person in the world that can successfully 
train a dog. just my opinion.


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## Hyatt101 (Dec 8, 2012)

The one thing I do wonder about is that, Cesar can fix the dog's behavior, but then what happens when he leaves? He has to 'train' the owners, so to speak, so that they can dominate over the dog. I do think his methods are very good, and you do need dominance over your dog, definitely. The thing where he does the 'pssst!' noise and jabs the dog in the neck is a good method. Lots of people don't understand that this does not hurt the dog, (if you have a super tiny breed of dog, then do it more gently) but it's a very useful technique. You'll find people who say its abusive to do this, but it is not. It's getting the dog's attention. We have done this with our dogs, and it works. It helps especially if you have a dog that barks a lot, just a little (gentle but still firm) jab and the noise "psssst" works well. 
As for Cesar, he can be a bit too 'commercial' like, but, his methods work. You may not like his personality, but he does successfully teach dogs. 
Just my 2 cents


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