# Breeder/Buyer question...



## wendymac (Mar 2, 2012)

Okay. Say you had a customer that had you hold 2 bunnies for you. You also offered to breed the customer's doe, with the fee for stud service being their pick of one of the resulting babies. The customer then comes to purchase and pick up the 2 bunnies they had you hold. One was 8 weeks old (from one litter) and one was just turning 6 weeks old (from another). The customer takes them home, and 3 days later the youngest one has to be put to sleep. It was taken to the vet, and the vet said that the intestinal tract wasn't quite formed enough to be away from the mother. When notified, you tell them that you'll breed their doe and they keep all the babies, instead of refunding the money on the dead bunny. You're happy, the customer is happy.

Fast forward a few months. You breed the doe, the doe delivers, and the customer tells you. Then you turn around and say, "Do we still get a baby from the breeding?" 

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Now, I'm the customer. And I'm going, "WHAT???" That would mean being out the money for the lost bunny PLUS the money from the sale of one of the one's for your doe.

Am I in the wrong for thinking that I'm getting taken here? I do have all e-mails that exchanged, from the moment I notified them I wanted 2 of their babies, up until now (I stink at keeping my inbox cleaned up). Could it be a case of they always have so many rabbits changing hands (in one day, they had 9 does kindle), that they forgot I lost the little doe? Or should I just chalk it up to yet another "live and learn" and let it go?

I have 10 babies. I have 3 sold, and I'm keeping at least 2 of them. I won't let any of mine leave until they're at least 9 weeks old, and advise the new owner it would be ideal to leave them here until they're 10 weeks. And if they were to die within 5 days, they'd get a refund or could get another bunny (if I had any left, and with proof that they had taken it to a vet).

The rabbit world is a small world, and I don't want to make enemies/create waves. On the other hand, this "live and learn" crap is getting expensive!


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## LakeCondo (Mar 2, 2012)

I'd say assume that they forgot about the doe, though the wording including "still" makes that unlikely. You probably should print a copy of the pertinent emails & have them with you at any shows etc where you might encounter them. Or if they email you, forward a copy to them.


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## woahlookitsme (Mar 2, 2012)

I would have sent another bunny to you in the first place. But since that didn't happen I would forward the message that stated u could keep all the buns and re explain yalls deal.


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## ZRabbits (Mar 3, 2012)

I would nicely send them a copy of the e-mail that shows the full extent of the sale.

Not stepping on any toes in the Small Bunny World. Just showing the agreement that was made. 

No "live and learn" here. It's real. Not a game or movie. An agreement was made between two parties. You are just making them stick to the agreement. 

Any breeder or show person should never backtrack on an agreement. And the Small Bunny World knows this. 

K


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## Blaze_Amita (Mar 4, 2012)

exactly what the others said. Show the agreement back to the breeder


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## wendymac (Mar 5, 2012)

Well, I sent her an e-mail last night, and didn't hear anything back. At the show today, I went over to say hello. Her husband was not a happy camper. He's like, "Just how long do you think a guarantee should be? How long are YOU going to offer a replacement if a bunny dies after you sell it?" I answered with, "First of all, my rabbits won't be leaving until they're 9 weeks old, with the buyer being told I'd prefer they stayed for 10." He made a face, and I said, "That rabbit died just days after bringing her home, and she wasn't even 6 weeks old!" He flipped around to his wife, and said, "Why the hell did you let them go if they weren't even weaned?" So apparently she never filled her hubby in on all the details, and he said something like, "I've told you before about that." So I don't think I'm the only one that got a rabbit from them that wasn't old enough to even leave the mother. And, to make sure they knew I wasn't joking around, I added, "And it's against the law to sell ANY animal before 8 weeks old." 

So I'll keep every e-mail (which I have from the first one I sent when I asked to be put on the waiting list until present), along with the vet report. I'll keep them in my "bunny book", so if they try blackballing me, I can show proof on what really transpired.

Thanks everyone for the advice!


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## ZRabbits (Mar 5, 2012)

Glad to hear no confrontation at the Show.

BTW, just curious, what law states you can't sell an animal before 8 weeks? Is this a law or ordinance? Just interested. I've never heard of that. I was always under the impression that release was in the discretion of the party's involved. But if there is something else, I'd to know about it. 

Thanks

K


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## wendymac (Mar 5, 2012)

I know it's a Pennsylvania law, but I think most states have one similar. I'll look it up and see what I can find.


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## LakeCondo (Mar 5, 2012)

Let's hope that they won't be selling any more that young. I'm sure they had an interesting discussion later.


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## wendymac (Mar 5, 2012)

Well, she assured me and her hubby that she wasn't letting them go until 9 weeks old now. Whether they follow through or not, I won't know. It's sad for the babies, too. :-(


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## ZRabbits (Mar 5, 2012)

*wendymac wrote: *


> I know it's a Pennsylvania law, but I think most states have one similar. I'll look it up and see what I can find.



Would love to see it. I still think it should be an individual call. I'm sorry your 6 week old didn't make it because of the way a breeder handled the weaning, but my now 10 week old is doing just fine for the month I've had him. Was eating and drinking like a champ. Wow, the breeder did their job. 

K


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## wendymac (Mar 5, 2012)

The problem was, it wasn't even 6 weeks old. If she had been, she might have stood a chance. :-( I think it's in the Animal Welfare Act, but haven't had time today to look it up.


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## ZRabbits (Mar 5, 2012)

*wendymac wrote: *


> The problem was, it wasn't even 6 weeks old. If she had been, she might have stood a chance. :-( I think it's in the Animal Welfare Act, but haven't had time today to look it up.


Geez. Understand completely now. Amazing what just one more week could have done. 

Know you're busy with lots of babies (hoping Adeline's kits are doing well and hoping good news with the Cali's) I'll look it up myself. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. I don't have LOTS of babies to worry about. And don't mind. I'll let you know what I find out. 

K


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## wendymac (Mar 5, 2012)

Yeah, she was only 5 weeks and Max was 6.

Adeline's babies are doing wonderfully! And she's like a totally different rabbit. Before, she didn't want touched. Now she comes to the front of her cage and I pet her all over. It was either having babies or the oatmeal I've been giving her the past 2 weeks. LOL Cals are doing okay, but worried about the one with the sore. One out of three Cals kindling isn't bad. But Jack better have more "shells" to fire next time, or he'll be culled. :-(


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## ZRabbits (Mar 5, 2012)

*wendymac wrote: *


> Yeah, she was only 5 weeks and Max was 6.
> 
> Adeline's babies are doing wonderfully! And she's like a totally different rabbit. Before, she didn't want touched. Now she comes to the front of her cage and I pet her all over. It was either having babies or the oatmeal I've been giving her the past 2 weeks. LOL Cals are doing okay, but worried about the one with the sore. One out of three Cals kindling isn't bad. But Jack better have more "shells" to fire next time, or he'll be culled. :-(


So glad to hear that Adeline's doing so well with being a First Time Mom. Hopefully she stays that sweet. I hear that does do kind of get turned around from offish to personable after their first litter. Hoping it's not just the oats but her new way of seeing life. lol

So sorry for the baby with the sore (I saw your other thread). And definitely Jack better get shooting when you want him too or I'd do the same thing, out he goes from the program. Hoping he has the right stuff next time for you.

K


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## OneTwoThree (Mar 5, 2012)

NJ, NY and PA are all 8 weeks, delaware is 12, most states are at least 8 though- http://www.arba.net/district/9/state_laws.htm
Googling your state would be the best, there doesn't seem to be a Super list of everywhere 
here too- http://www.bornfreeusa.org/b4a1_petshoplaws_state.php?s=nj


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## ZRabbits (Mar 5, 2012)

*OneTwoThree wrote: *


> NJ, NY and PA are all 8 weeks, delaware is 12, most states are at least 8 though- http://www.arba.net/district/9/state_laws.htm
> Googling your state would be the best, there doesn't seem to be a Super list of everywhere
> here too- http://www.bornfreeusa.org/b4a1_petshoplaws_state.php?s=nj



Thanks. lol 
I appreciated the laugh. We do have a Super lists of Nanny Laws. Shame those who made those laws here in New Jersey overlook or "bury" some things that are crueler and more dangerous than selling a bunny before 8 weeks. 

But hey, They know what's best for us. Just don't ask them to explain it. They don't know how to spell cruelty, let alone know what it means.

Appreciate the heads up. 

K


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## OneTwoThree (Mar 5, 2012)

Rabbits shouldn't be weaned before 8 weeks for THEIR health. Its not that complicated. They've done studies. I can't wait until they update the laws and make it 12 weeks.


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## wendymac (Mar 5, 2012)

Thanks for the info!! I knew it was a law, but was darned if I could find it.


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## ZRabbits (Mar 5, 2012)

*OneTwoThree wrote: *


> Rabbits shouldn't be weaned before 8 weeks for THEIR health. Its not that complicated. They've done studies. I can't wait until they update the laws and make it 12 weeks.


Sorry respectfully disagree. I'll let you know how my study goes. I know how "some" do studies. Especially here in New Jersey, New York, PA, Washington, DC. Also I know that in the "show" arena, not the most healthy animal is shown. Just make it beautiful. 

If you want to wait until 12 weeks, that's your choice. I do take the health of all my rabbits, now and future very seriously. Sorry, I see how government laws define "cruelty". lol 

K


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## Shayhara (Mar 6, 2012)

I kind of agree with ZRabbits, I don't sell before 8 weeks anymore, but I still often wean before six weeks. Why?? because mom is done with them, she doesn't want anything more to do with them, won't let them nurse, and is all around irritated by them. I go by the way the doe and the babies are acting. My mini rex usually keeps hers until at least 8 weeks, often 12, because she seems to enjoy having them with her. She also usually has 4 babies, while My mini lops have 8 - 10. That's a lot of bunnies in one cage at six weeks old, so I will then separate out the biggest and leave them together in a separate cage. 
Back to the main topic though, I think they should of refunded your money or given you pick of another litter, they chose not to and instead made the deal with you about not taking one from this litter. So they need to stand by that deal, no matter how much time has gone by. 

Just my two cents worth, and I doubt its even worth 2 cents! lol


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## wendymac (Mar 6, 2012)

You can wean them at 6 weeks, but you can't sell them for until they're 8 weeks old. The stress of weaning is hard enough...imagine weaning AND re-homing in the same day. At least when you wean them from the mother, they still have their siblings.


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## CCWelch (Mar 6, 2012)

I wean from 6 to 8 weeks depending on the litter (like Shayhara) but I ALWAYS keep them under observation for that first week away from mom, if it is going to go wrong it will either be then or once it gets to the new home because of the moving stress and possible change of feed with out mixing.
I also do not let a baby leave my place if it seems even the slightest bit unhealthy,


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## ZRabbits (Mar 6, 2012)

I would never wean and sell a baby the same day. Now that's foolish to think that would even work. I understand completely everyone's definition of when to sell a bunny, and if I was looking for a bunny and the breeder said "No, 10 weeks", I'd be there in 10 weeks. If they say "6 weeks", I'm there in 6. That's the way it is. The breeder knows her stock. Completely makes sure that everything is ready before the kit leaves. It's her reputation at stake. If they are a real breeder. This is what makes the lines of rabbitry stand out. 

Concern and interest in where that bunny is going. And who is going to own it. That's also a MAJOR key. Selling a young bunny to someone who never had a bunny is also a red zone. 

Lots of variables here. But the one thing that should stand out is the bunny's welfare. That's what I see. This business, hobby, whatever you want to call it, has it's responsibilities on BOTH parties, not just the new pet parent. And the new pet parent needs to be drilled too. I was. After all who has most experience, the breeder. The breeder knows what can happen, when it can happen, and the results. 

That's all I'm trying to say. They are your bunnies. YOU decide how and when you will sell a kit. And it's your responsibility to interview any potential buyer to make sure they know (no matter how old your bunny is) what it is to raise and care for a bunny. 

The prime objective is a permanent bunny home. PERIOD. And we all strive to obtain that for our bunnies. No laws can make someone do this. That's all I've been trying to say. It's a responsibility. And all bunnies are individuals. No laws can box them into one catagory. 

K


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## wendymac (Mar 6, 2012)

Funny you should mention new owners, K. I had someone contact me about buying one of my French babies. Her first question wasn't about the actual rabbit, but whether I had a buck that she could breed her with. I questioned her a little more, and she's only ever had a pet when she was a young kid. And now they're raising Pit Bulls. I did some more checking (she's local) and they do nothing but keep that female pit pregnant, as a money-maker. Well, I'd rather my animals went to show people or as pets...not as nothing but a baby machine. So I told her I doubted I'd have any does left from this litter (have 3 sold, and there may not be any does in this litter anyway).

I won't let any leave until they're 8 weeks old and all doing well. I even told the people that already want to buy them that I would prefer they stayed for 9. That way I can be 100% sure they're doing well on their own, before the stress of moving.

I didn't enter into the rabbit hobby with the intentions of mass producing rabbits. I want to show, and I want my rabbits to be the best show rabbits I can produce. And I am not selling them to just anyone. And they're all leaving with the owner knowing that, if they no longer want the rabbit (for any reason), I'll take it back (for free..not buying them all back. lol) and find it another home. Or it can live here. Thankfully I have tons of room. LOL


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## CCWelch (Mar 6, 2012)

*wendymac wrote: *


> I didn't enter into the rabbit hobby with the intentions of mass producing rabbits. I want to show, and I want my rabbits to be the best show rabbits I can produce. And I am not selling them to just anyone. And they're all leaving with the owner knowing that, if they no longer want the rabbit (for any reason), I'll take it back (for free..not buying them all back. lol) and find it another home. Or it can live here. Thankfully I have tons of room. LOL


I am totally with you on that...my exception to that rule is my New Zealands, they seem to be happiest when they have babies, so I keep them breeding but, they do get time off between litters.

I still cannot believe the first question was whether or not you would have buck they could breed her to, next time that happens tell them yes but there is a $100 stud fee plus pick of the litter.


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## wendymac (Mar 6, 2012)

Get this! I just saw that woman (who wanted to buy a doe, plus a buck, to breed) post puppies for sale. Not only are they breeding their Pitbulls non-stop, but now they're breeding shitzu/poodle crosses...and charging $350 each. They're definitely not getting one of my rabbits!


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## MiniLopHop (Mar 6, 2012)

People like that make me so angry! :X

They give all breeders a bad reputation and THEY are the reson for the pet over population. Honestly I didn't think there was such a thing as ethical breeding until I came here and saw how much all the folks here love each and every baby bunny.

Backyard breeders suck :banghead


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## wendymac (Mar 6, 2012)

Me, too! Granted, most of my dogs have always been mutts, but I sure as hell didn't breed to get them. And the high price tag, and the idiots that rush to buy them, just astounds me. I hate when people breed something just because it has a vagina or a penis.


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## ZRabbits (Mar 7, 2012)

*wendymac wrote: *


> Me, too! Granted, most of my dogs have always been mutts, but I sure as hell didn't breed to get them. And the high price tag, and the idiots that rush to buy them, just astounds me. I hate when people breed something just because it has a vagina or a penis.



So true. And then I feel bad for the "outcome" of someone who only worries about a vagina and a penis. 

Like others have posted, I am not here to make money off my bunnies. I am here for the future and making sure my "outcome" is in a positive catagory. 

And for me, the best dog we've had was a rescue. Granted my Kuvacz was my first baby and I did pay a good price for this Rare purebred. Was worth every penny. But after rescuing, I probably will rescue again. Jake is just awesome. And I should say didn't rescue, adopted. As he adopted us. 

K


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## wendymac (Mar 7, 2012)

I hear you there. It's seen so often in horses, which are already in a precarious state (with the closing of the equine slaughter plants 5 years ago).

Piper is the only dog I've ever purchased. While I love her to death, she's no "better" than my freebie dogs were.


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