# Lionhead rabbit



## Sweetie (Dec 14, 2010)

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/pet/2112883156.html

I found this on craigslist. It is very disturbing because it says that this rabbit is less than 2 pounds and is a lionhead, a dwarf by sizing standards.

I emailed the person telling them that this rabbit is not healthy and that a lionhead should be between 3 to 3 1/2 pounds not less than 2 pounds.

I wish that I can take this rabbit and make it healthy, but I am hurting financially. I am thinking about talking to my vet and see what they can do to help if they can.

Any thoughts on this link, the craigslist ad?


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## Korr_and_Sophie (Dec 15, 2010)

Nothing in the ad says that he is purebred (purebred and pedigreed are different things). He could be the product of a nether land dwarf crossed with a lionhead. That could give him a dwarfing gene which would make him small. Some rabbit are just smaller than others and can still be healthy. 
Lionheads are not yet a recognized breed with ARBA, so the individuals will vary in size quite a bit. You could have 2.5 pound ones and ones that are 5 pounds and both could be healthy weights. 

Without seeing the rabbit and getting a good look and feel, you don't know if he is healthy or not. If you want to get him and get him checked out, that is great, but don't make assumptions based on a craisgslist ad. He doesn't look really skinny, but it can be hard to tell with the really furry ones.


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## Sweetie (Dec 16, 2010)

This is what the poster emailed me back. I did apologize for sounding mean and that it was not my intention. I also asked her when was the last time the rabbit saw a vet, and where she bought the rabbit. I have not received an email back since I emailed a response to this one.


I read your email and have to say I am very surprised. I feel hurt that instead of giving me the benefit of the doubt you seem to have assumed I don't feed my rabbits properly. I feel attacked.

"Chip" is a perfectly healthy purebred (not mixed) Lionhead who happened to mature to a small size as an adult but still leads a healthy, normal life. Small animals can happen in nature and it does not always mean something is wrong or that the owner has underfed them. My bunnies are very important to me. I can appreciate that you are trying to look out for the safety of animals because I'm an animal lover myself, but at the same time, your approach was not as kind as it could have been. Please re-read what you wrote from my point of view. Do you feel how offended you would be if someone accused you of mistreating your lionhead mix doe, who I assume you take very good care of? That is how I felt after reading your email about my own rabbit.

Just to clear up one thing: your email mentioned he looks like a baby, yet my ad clearly reads he is pedigreed, and so, I would of course know his date of birth because it is on his pedigree. Your email, then, implies that I am lying about his age? Would it not make more sense that I - having his papers on hand - would know his age better than someone just looking at a photo? I have papers proving he is a year and a half old. His body, mane, developed genitals, and record of offspring may also serve as secondary proof. He is not a baby nor a junior and I certainly do not lie about my rabbits as I feel you have implied. This implication is an insult to my character. It saddens me and is completely unacceptable between people who do not know each other. Insults are not the way to approach someone when you have a concern for the well-being of an animal.

Finally, he had a record of producing normal, healthy babies before I purchased him. He was just barely under 2lbs when I bought him in March 2010, was full grown then, and I assume he remains at approximately the same weight. While he is purebred by definition, the lionhead is not an ARBA recognized breed so he may have an abundancy of netherland dwarf beyond the generations seen on his papers, which would account for his small size. Looking at his dwarf-like conformation I find this highly likely. This is often the case with lionheads: there is usually no way of knowing what exactly is beyond those first four generations. I can go into more detail if you would prefer as I fully researched the breed before I actually began breeding them.

I hope this email has halted your fears about Chip. I am open to answering any further questions you may have about him, but please do not write again without also taking some time to think over the message you're sending about YOU as a person. I also hope this email has not come off as rude; I only mean to defend myself and ensure you Chip is healthy.

Sincerely,
Colette


This rabbit is less than 2 lbs and full grown and purebred as stated in the email. I am very concerned for this rabbit. Financially I cannot take care of another rabbit, wish I could.


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## Sweetie (Dec 16, 2010)

Yes I understand that the lionhead is knot a recognized breed yet. How long before it is a recognized breed?


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## Korr_and_Sophie (Dec 16, 2010)

Some colours just passed the first presentation and I think they need 3 to be recognized so it will be at least 2 more years. It could be longer than that based on how they do at convention in the future and other factors. I don't fully know the whole process.


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## Sweetie (Dec 16, 2010)

I see. Thank you!


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## fuzz16 (Dec 16, 2010)

ive known breeders here with small lionheads...i have a customer with a ntherland dwarf that weighs barely over a pound. there are flemish who weigh 20 and some who weigh 9 dosnt mean these animals are underfed or mistreated...by the pictures he has no mats and its hard to say if hes under wight or not by the picture, but its not right to go off assuming everyone doesnt take care of their pets or brood properly if their not you just cause their smaller than the average...


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## Momto3boys (Dec 16, 2010)

She seems to know her stuff and she was very mature and polite in her response to you.

Honestly, I think it's just a small rabbit and she handled it better than I would have, I would have told you off, LOL


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## Sweetie (Dec 16, 2010)

I wasn't tryng to assume anything. I was just concerned about the rabbit being less than 2 lbs. Here is what I told her when I first emailed her:

Hello! I saw your ad on craigslist and I am appalled at what I have read. I understand that this lionhead is a dwarf, but what I am appalled about is the fact that this lionhead is underweight. Lionheads are 3 to 3 1/2 pounds, they should not be less than that. Is this lionhead a purebred or a mix breed? I read that he is double maned which makes me believe that he is a purebred. 

I have a lionhead mix and she is the correct weight at 3 1/2 pounds. Plus I know breeders that have lionheads that are the correct weight.

Again lionheads, mix or purebred should not be under 3 pounds or over about 4 pounds.

I will ask around and see if I can find someone to help get this lionhead the proper weight, because he is not healthy if he is less than 2 pounds. Plus he looks like a baby lionhead. Judging from the pic. 


I may have come across as mean and assuming but that was not my intention at all. The lionhead that she has is the same size as my lionhead mix doe, Sweetie. She is 3.5 lbs. How can a rabbit be at a healthy weight when it is under 2 lbs? I just don't get it.


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## TinysMom (Dec 16, 2010)

I don't see what the problem is - as a lionhead breeder I've had (and still have) rabbits in the 2 pound range and they've done fine. For a while - some breeders I knew were trying to breed closer to 2 pounds until someone pointed out that according to the standard - the ideal weight was around 3 1/2 pounds.

I've had over 100 lionheads over the years and I'm guessing that out of them - probably 6-8 stayed in the 2 - 2 1/2 pound range. I know in a couple of cases - it was because their parents were small or came from NDs in their background.


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## slavetoabunny (Dec 16, 2010)

I'm not commenting on the weight, since I know nothing about this....but, why are Craigslist people always adversarial? They could be a bit more polite. And if they don't like the response....just ignore.


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## Momto3boys (Dec 16, 2010)

I actually found she was very polite.

She was basically being told her rabbit was underfed and unhealthy, she had every right to defend herself and her rabbit.


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## Sweetie (Dec 17, 2010)

I never said that her rabbit was being underfed or unhealthy. I just stated that he was not a healthy weight. She assumed that I was implying that she was underfeeding and mistreating her rabbit, from what I wrote to her.

Also she probably thought that I was a child writing to her about her rabbit. I got that towards the end of the email she sent me which is posted above.

Slavetoabunny: Thank you! People who post on craigslist do lie about their animals and you really cannot tell who is lying and who isn't just by their ad. Some are very good people. The lady I got Sweetie from, was very nice. I would get another rabbit from her if I had the finances. 

But this lady with the lionhead rabbit, was trying to be nice, but she wasn't. I found her email to be assaulting, because she assumed that I was implying that she underfed and mistreated the lionhead. If I thought that I would have been rude and mean. I was just stating that the rabbit was underweight and that it should be 3.5 lbs.


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## fuzz16 (Dec 18, 2010)

if someone told me that me that my rabbits were not at a healthy weight based off a picture i would feel very attacked, you dont know situations.

my holland lop weighs 2.3lbs as of a month ago and he is over a year old...is he unhealthy? 

your being very judgemental and i think rude to her...like Brandy said. she prob felt very attacked by your comments and was defending herself exremely politely.


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## Sweetie (Dec 18, 2010)

fuzz16: I didn't just go off a picture. I went off of what she put in the ad.

I have PMed a lionhead breeder and got the info I needed and now I understand this situation.

Plus I wasn't trying to be mean. The lady could have ensured me that the rabbit was healthy instead of attacking me for supposedly being mean.

See I didn't know that a rabbit can be underweight and be healthy also.


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## JadeIcing (Dec 18, 2010)

*Because rabbits like people vary in size. I have two netherland dwarfs. One has barely hit 2lbs and the other is 3lbs. I have seen netherlands that hit 5lbs. A lot goes into the size of a rabbit. *

*I am going to put in bold what could upset her with your first response to her.

*
*Sweetie wrote: *


> I wasn't tryng to assume anything. I was just concerned about the rabbit being less than 2 lbs. Here is what I told her when I first emailed her:
> 
> Hello! I saw your ad on craigslist and *I am appalled at what I have read*. I understand that this lionhead is a dwarf, but what I* am appalled about is the fact that this lionhead is underweight*. Lionheads are 3 to 3 1/2 pounds, they should not be less than that. Is this lionhead a purebred or a mix breed? I read that he is double maned which makes me believe that he is a purebred.
> 
> ...


You responded to an ad with out full knowledge of the breed which while some breeders are working to get a certain standard not all are. Which makes for a wide range in size.


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## Purple Mountain Rabbitry (Dec 18, 2010)

I had a lionhead buck that was larger and weighed around 5 lbs and he was a purebred. he ws not overfed thats just how he grew.

JadeIcing is right not everyone breeds for the standard so there are always gong to be varies in size and weight.

Crystal


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## Sweetie (Dec 18, 2010)

Thank you JadeIcing. Next time I will be more careful.

I would like to know the lionhead breed more, because:

1. I love the breed
2. So that I will have knowledge of the breed.

Some things that I already know about lionheads:

1. They are susceptible to seizures, I know that any breed can have seizures especially BEW. Can REW's have seizures?

2. Lionheads are easy to train http://lionheadrabbit.net/genindex.htm

3. Lionheads are sweet and friendly.

4. Lionheads are sooooo cute

I would love to learn more about lionheads.


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## fuzz16 (Dec 18, 2010)

most lionheads i have known are testy and tempermental. prissy. 

every rabbit is differnet, because they are dwarfs most (not all) are skittish and tend to like being left to themselves

there are single manes, double manes...and i think a double mane that some people call a teddy bear cause the fuzz is so thick over their body??

basic colors are less likely to have genetic issues healthywise because their not bred for the variety and line bred. so rew black maybe tort less likely to have seizures


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## Jaded (Dec 19, 2010)

I don't see anything wrong with this rabbit, some animals just stay small, It could be the runt of the litter.


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## TinysMom (Dec 19, 2010)

*Sweetie wrote: *


> Thank you JadeIcing. Next time I will be more careful.
> 
> I would like to know the lionhead breed more, because:
> 
> ...


Let me share a few things based upon my experiences as a lionhead breeder.

1. Lionheads were once thought to be susceptible to seizures and some folks still wonder about that. A few years ago, I spoke with Gail Gibbons (COD holder at that time) about this because she was keeping track of this. I want to say that in the 5 or so years that lionheads had been in the states at that time - the number was under 50....closer to 25. (Its been a few years since the conversation). From what I remember of the conversation - her belief was that the further away we got from the original handful of lionheads that were brought over - the less chance of seizures. A lot of it could have come from inbreeding so much because there were so few lionheads available.

I rarely hear of a lionhead having a seizure - I can't remember the last time I ever heard of it (and I'm on a lionhead list where breeders chat). I wonder sometimes if the seizure could be due to something other than the fact it is a lionhead...like if there could be something in the environment, etc. 

For instance - I'd NEVER heard of rabbits choking on their pellets and dying until a few months ago...now I've heard of it three or four times. But in each case - it seemed like it was something particular to that particular instance .... same thing with the whole seizure thing. 

2. Lionheads are easy to train....yes/no/maybe. Like any other rabbit and/or breed of rabbit - it is going to depend upon the individual rabbit. For instance - I once had a young buck that at 10 weeks old - would drag his litter box to the front of the cage EVERY OTHER DAY to be cleaned. (He was sold at about 12 weeks as a show bunny and I understand that he continued that habit as he got older). I've had other rabbits that couldn't care less about a litter box or anything else. 

3. Lionheads are sweet & friendly. Once again - yes/no/maybe. It is going to depend upon the individual lionhead and the home it comes from, etc. I believe the personality of a rabbit is both genetic - and based upon their environment as they grow up. A lionhead that is bossy and hard to work with at a month old - is not going to become sweet right away. I've seen some lines of the rabbits where they're just sweethearts....and then other lines where they weren't so much. I've also seen some rabbits come from breeders who handled them daily and played with them - and they were well socialized and wonderful. I've also had others that scared me to death when I'd go to feed them 'cause they'd charge at me.

My point? In every breed of rabbit - temperament is based upon genetics and environment and you'll find both sweet lionheads and mean ones.

I hope this helps.


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## Nela (Dec 19, 2010)

I think this is a classic case of jumping to conclusions and acting too quickly,something i am all too familiar with.I think you realized that you were wrong and have apologized for it. Hopefully, in the future, you will be a bit gentler in the future.

It's all too common for people to 'attack' without actually asking and getting the facts. Your e-mail really wasn't so bad but I can see why she got offended The good thing is you will have learned from it. Now you know lionheads can be smaller and still be healthy


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## Sweetie (Dec 19, 2010)

Thank you Peg. That does help a lot. WOW!

Nela: yes I have learned from this situation. I will get the facts before jumping to conclusions next time. I can see where she got offended too.

We all live and learn.


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## DebsBuns (Dec 19, 2010)

I have a lionhead half lop. He's around 5 years old now. When he was around 2 he had his first seizure. He's had a total of three so far. When he had his first one I was going to have him put to sleep until I talked to a breeder.
This was three years ago and she said that California and Texas were the only states still breeding lionheads with seizures. He's also a larger lionhead and tempermental. But, because of the seizures I can't neuter him so that may be why his temperment may be what it is.


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## Happi Bun (Dec 19, 2010)

I had a Lionhead that was purchased from a breeder that developed seizures at a very young age. He was a Blue Eyed White and I believe it was neurological. He passed away at the E-Vet one night while having a grand-mal seizure, he wasn't even a year old.


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## Sweetie (Dec 19, 2010)

Happi Bun: I am sorry for your loss

DebsBuns: I hope that your bunny gets better.


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## DebsBuns (Dec 19, 2010)

Thanks. I just hope he has a long life like my other rabbits. I always get my buns from shelters and rescues and this is only the second I got from a pet store.


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## Sweetie (Dec 19, 2010)

You are welcome! I am sure that he will live a long time with you. He appreciates you rescuing him from the pet store.


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