# Max Factor babies?



## TinysMom (Apr 3, 2007)

Popcorn just had her litter of four babies earlythis morning. One didn't have a chance...and the other threewere deformed...with various deformities. One had the front legs goingbackwards...Art didn't let me see another one - plus the third one hadthe head all messed up. 

No - I'm not going to show pictures. Sorry.

Art says we should probably neuter her to make sure she doesn't get pregnant again.

This is hearbreaking for several reasons..

a. She would have been an awesome mama.

b. I always hate to see any babies be ill or have to be put down.

c. Popcorn was pretty upset about this. I've wound up taking her out of her cage.

What I'm not sure of is this (and my book has been misplaced)....

....do both parents have to carry the Max Factor gene for it to be present? Or just one parent?

Thanks so much for the help!

Peg


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## polly (Apr 3, 2007)

Hi Peg, i hadn't heard of the max factor genebefore reading one of the posts on here, but i just wanted to say i amso sorry, what a shame for popcorn, thats an awful thing to happen. itake it your buck had been bred before?

sorry i can't help you.


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## TinysMom (Apr 3, 2007)

It was actually a first breeding for both parents.

The buck is going to be sold as a pet now - I'm not going to risk anymore litters like this (I'm thinking both parents may carry a recessivegene). 

Popcorn will be neutered at some point and stay here as a house bunny.

I had a breeder friend look at photos of the one with the deformed headand say it looked to her like mercury posioning or something like that(from seeing pictures years ago)....but since two of the fourdefinitely were Max Factor looking I think (legs going backwards)...Iam thinking it was genetic.

I've been bawling my eyes out here. Popcorn was a singleton in herlitter - and she's been pretty special to us (and Tiny). She is prettymuch free roaming and just has such an attitude about her. Kits fromher would have been awesome as far as personality go.

I have to admit - I was REALLY looking forward to this litter.

But now I don't think I'll be breeding Popcorn's parents again either -since I don't know who carries the gene. I also can't sell them(ethically) since I suspect one of them could carry the Max Factor gene.

A breeder friend wants me to take photos to document this -but I don't think I can bring myself to do this......

Anyway - I think I'll go cry some more and try to get it out of my system.


Peg


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## polly (Apr 3, 2007)

Oh Peg, i am really feeling for you i can seewhy your friend said that about documenting it but you have to do whatyou feel comfortable with.

Thats hard if you don't know where the gene is. I can't even get myhead around the basic genetics it would be really hard to isolate thisgene. does this mean you lose a whole breeding line? you seem to have areally great handle on your lines and you know them quite a way back. alot of breeders don't seem to give you the family tree over here i haveonly had it once on a dwarf lop so you don't have any idea whats there.

sending you hugs Polly


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## TinysMom (Apr 3, 2007)

Well, as of right now - here is what I have decided.

I'm not breeding the buck and doe again. He will be petted out. She will be neutered and be a pet here. 

The buck's parents are no longer being bred - so I'm safe there. I petted out the dad and the mom. 

My biggest concern is the doe's parents. I do have both of them - andthey are from the same breeder. I have contacted her and asked if she'shad any deformed kits. She and I are friends and I've told her that I'msimply trying to keep from having to pull both the buck and doe from mybreeding program - but I am prepared to do that as well.

If I can track this through the other breeder to ONE of the two parents- then I will only pull that parents from my breeding program.Otherwise, both will be pulled. They will be petted out.

I am not a breeder who will get a rabbit, breed it, and then move it onout. I'm trying to build my own lines - the day when "El Rey Lionheads"is on every name of the pedigree is the day I will feel I made it. Istill have a ways to go....

But the benefit of being like this is that I can pull the parents and say "no more".

Natasha (Popcorn's mom) only had the one litter. I did rebreed heragain but it didn't take. I was thinking of rebreeding her again laterthis year - obviously - I will not do that. 

Alexei - (Popcorn's dad) had three litters. I sold most of them - no -all of them - as pets....except for one other doe I have here. Thismeans that I may be removing the following from my breeding program:


Popcorn
Natasha
Alexei
Nadia
Youngbuck who was mainly called "cutie" or "sweetie" or "hey handsome" as Ihad not named him yet
So I guess that yes - it means I haveto pull out a whole line. I'm not happy about this...but it has to bedone and I'm too ethical to not do it.

I'm glad that none of the offspring went to other breeders - or I wouldbe contacting them and offering a refund if they would pet out therabbit for me...with a short explanation why I'm asking them to pet itout. Some breeders would probably say, "oh well" - but I just do notwant to put into the gene pool this recessive gene (which is probablythere and hidden). Knowing now that I have it - means I have to be VERYcareful to not use it.

And I'm sorry I've rambled so much!

Peg


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## polly (Apr 3, 2007)

No you didn't ramble, I relly respect you as abreeder, you know your stuff and you don't compromise and that is wherea lot of breeders could learn from you.

I feel you and Pam have taught me a lot since i have started using thisforum, and although i am a novice breeder compared to a lot of peopleon here its really nice to meet like minded people. 

There have been times in the past where i have mentioned to one of thebreeders over here that i had a sick bunny and they assume you aregoing to kill them as they are dead space it really shocks me. I thinkDennis is a good looking nethie and i reckon the only reasonhe was passed to us (Free!) is because he has sinusitus and with medshe has got better but because they have so many they won't use a vet! INEVER WANT TO BE ONE OF THOSE BREEDERS!!! 

so (sorry for shouting) you are a rare breed yourself and I know itmust be really hard for you to have to think about retiring so manybunnies from a line but that is what makes you special. cause manypaople wouldn't.


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## Starlight Rabbitry (Apr 3, 2007)

Peg, Max Factor is a recessive gene in that both parents have to carry the gene. 

Sharon


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## TinysMom (Apr 3, 2007)

I've just got to say two things...ok..maybe more?

a. Thanks for respecting me as a breeder. I had two breeders today tellme "well.....just don't do that breeding again....use the mom withanother buck and the buck with other does.."

DUH! The gene will still possibly get passed down.

b. PAM ROCKS! Really - she is awesome and she has been therefor me more times in posts and pms and frantic posts and stuff. Herknowledge base just astounds me - health, genetics, standards forrabbits, etc. Our forum is so blessed to have her on here.

c. Our other breeders rock too. We have some great breederson here- mods and breeders who aren't mods - who really give greatadvice and help and its just awesome. I honestly think we're one of themost breeder-friendly places I've seen.

Peg*

polly wrote: *


> No you didn't ramble, I rellyrespect you as a breeder, you know your stuff and you don't compromiseand that is where a lot of breeders could learn from you.
> 
> I feel you and Pam have taught me a lot since i have started using thisforum, and although i am a novice breeder compared to a lot of peopleon here its really nice to meet like minded people.


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