# Having trouble giving penicillin injections to bunny



## rebeccashipp (Aug 27, 2011)

My husband and I are giving our 4 year old Holland Lop, Snuffers, penicillin shots to treat what they think is pasteurella. We have a lot of trouble with these shots-we get the needle under her skin and we can't push in the plunger. When hubby pulls the plunger out, it goes right back to where it was when he releases it, but we still can't push it in. In fact, it won't push until we take the needle out of her. What are we doing wrong?

Vet gave us penicillin G. They gave us 20 gram and 22 gram needles, both of which give us the same problem. We have followed vet's instructions on giving the injections. Is there some trick to it, or do we need better needles?

Please help! We end up sticking Snuffers several times before it works, and we hate doing that to her.


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## GorbyJobRabbits (Aug 27, 2011)

Honestly it's not going to cure it. You can put a little bit of apple cider vinegar in the water every day and it will help with some symptoms... as well as getting Duramyacin-10 from any feedstore with cattle supplies.


Did the vet also do a nasal swab and run the tests? because if not, then they don't know for sure it's snuffles.


Maybe other people on here will answer differently and be able to help in other ways.... I just personally wouldn't give PennG to a rabbit that will never be cured... and each breakout you will get to do this over and over again.


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## rebeccashipp (Aug 27, 2011)

Thanks for the suggestions. We want to be able to give the pennG a fair chance before going back to the vet to try something else-we've already tried multiple other meds. So we really want some suggestions on how to give the shots. I may try some of the others things you suggested as well.


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## Bunnylova4eva (Aug 27, 2011)

Ok, so my rabbit got Benzapen (Its a penicillin) I haven't actually given shots to my buns before ( wish my vet would have showed me so my rabbit didn't have to go through that stressful car ride every 3 days or whatever..=PP) So I can't really help with that. 
But I was going to say about the snuffles: If you try the PennG, and it doesn't work, and if you haven't had the tests, I would highly consider it to be an Upper Respiritory infection. Without a test, the vet told me she was sure my Charlie had Pastuerella, but none of the stuff they gave her cured it. I know that can be the nature of Pasteurella, but the breeder has been treating her with some other things as she feels it isn't Pasteurella. And, I think she's been seeing a good ammount of improvement. Several others have also told me that its probably not Pasteurella~what have her symptoms been?

Sorry I can't help you with your original question..


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## TinysMom (Aug 27, 2011)

When I give Pen G - I put the Pen G in the syringe and then I add an equal amount of bottled water and shake it together so that the Pen G isn't so thick.


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## Watermelons (Aug 27, 2011)

*TinysMom wrote: *


> When I give Pen G - I put the Pen G in the syringe and then I add an equal amount of bottled water and shake it together so that the Pen G isn't so thick.


Ahh bottled water is a big no-no. unless the medication is going oraly or rectaly, what you inject into your animal or yourself NEEDS to be sterile, not just safe for drinking.
You can cause some system wide problems with this either immediatly or down the road, everything from bacterial infections and abscesses, organ problems, anything and everything....

If you want to dilute the pen-g, you can usually get small vials of Sodium Chloride that are sterile and withdraw some into the syringe every time before you do an injection, or even a IV bag of it or the vet may be able to stick some in an empty sterile vial for you.

Once the needle is under her skin, does it feel like it can move freely under there? If youre not in the right spot, you may have alot of problems injecting anything in.

22guage needles are plenty large enough, typically for animals small like buns 26's are used. So its not the needle. 

Once you break the skin with the needle are are advancing it further under the skin, you should suddenly be able to feel no resistance at a certain point, you want it to go between the skin and the muscle into the SubQ area, pull back on the plunger to make sure you havn't hit a vessel, then inject. If you dont have free movement of the needle under the skin, its probably not the right spot/layer or your bunny is like my cat in which anything SubQ is insane to find the right spot in and you just have to force it in.
And remember the more you inject the skin with the same needle, the duller it gets, making it more painfull for the bunny and giving a higher chance of infection.


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## TinysMom (Aug 27, 2011)

I used to use the stuff they give in IV - but I've been out which is why I used the bottled water (which hadn't been opened before I took some). 

I will try to see if I can get another IV bag this next week - I've been meaning to do that!

I hope the original poster comes back and updates us!


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## Watermelons (Aug 27, 2011)

*TinysMom wrote: *


> I used to use the stuff they give in IV - but I've been out which is why I used the bottled water (which hadn't been opened before I took some).
> 
> I will try to see if I can get another IV bag this next week - I've been meaning to do that!
> 
> I hope the original poster comes back and updates us!


You would honestly be better using bottled water that youve personally boiled, ( i would boil some tap water in a pot to make sure the pots nice and clean thenboil some bottled at the bottom ifthats all you have),as while its clean drinking water that wont go bad while in storage, its still not sterile, and plain water isnt the best composition to be injecting as its more of an irritant. However bottled and tap water both have elements in them that the GI tract usually removes from the system rather them absorbing it, and if youre injecting it right into the body, its usually bypassing the liver/kidneys first pass and wont get removed until later.

Whats more soothing in your eyes, water or eye drops? Water tends to irritate while eye drops are usually Sodium Chloride 0.9% which is as close as they can get to what our natural body fluid is, in your blood, tears, etc. I know I always dread washing my eyes out with water if i get something in one, because the water bugs me almost as much as whatever i just got in them. (usually i've just done something stupid like give the birds dried cayenne pepper and forgotten i touched it)

You should be able to get little 10 or 20ml vials of Saline, or pre-loaded syringes (usually used to flush out IV's) that are usually cheaper then getting a bag of saline (though saline is much cheaper then Lactated Ringers (which can be used))i like the idea of the little vials, since youre supposed to toss a bag of fluids after 2 weeks once youve pricked the stopper, alot tends to go to waste, the little vials are more likely to get used and youre not wasting as much when you toss them, you vet might have empty vials they can fill with saline for you, often they have some hanging around to mix meds in.

If you were Local id toss you come of the saline bottles ive got laying around in my kit here lol.


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## rebeccashipp (Aug 27, 2011)

Snuffers' symptoms include watering red eyes and hair loss below her eyes, loud breathing, weight loss, and less playfulness. She has also recently begun urinating on the floor and feces is softer. 

Vet originally treated her for upper respiratory infection, then thought she might have allergies. They didn't do any tests, but think it may be pasteurella because of the number of medications we have tried that have been unsuccessful (sickness started in feb and has only gotten worse). 

As far as giving her shots, hubby says that there seems to be room for the needle to move around once under the skin, but he only moves it toward the skin to make sure it is in. It almost seems like a pressure problem with the needles. Most of the time we have trouble pushing in the plunger, but every once in awhile it works the first time. We've had to use 2 or 3 needles in one night before we got it to work.

Her next shot is tomorrow night, so we'll make sure the needle can move under her skin before we inject and we'll use the 22 g instead of 20 g needle. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!


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## rebeccashipp (Aug 27, 2011)

I forgot to mention that she also has an ear infection.

Current mess include PennG injection once a week, Tresaderm in ears once a day, Gentocin in eyes and nose twice a day, and children's benadryl orally twice a day. The benadryl seems to make her breathing quieter, but no other improvements.


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## slavetoabunny (Aug 27, 2011)

When we were giving Sparky Pen G shots, we had the same problem. I assume (hope) you are keeping it refrigerated? I found that it helps to let the syringe warm up before giving the injection. Letting it get to room temperature thins it out a bit.


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## Watermelons (Aug 27, 2011)

*rebeccashipp wrote: *


> As far as giving her shots, hubby says that there seems to be room for the needle to move around once under the skin, but he only moves it toward the skin to make sure it is in. It almost seems like a pressure problem with the needles. Most of the time we have trouble pushing in the plunger, but every once in awhile it works the first time. We've had to use 2 or 3 needles in one night before we got it to work.
> 
> Her next shot is tomorrow night, so we'll make sure the needle can move under her skin before we inject and we'll use the 22 g instead of 20 g needle. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!


20 Guage is the size I usually use as a people IV catheter, I cant imagine constantly poking a bunny with a needle that big unless youre doing fluid therapy.

Imagine you are doing fluid therapy, youve got a nice large IV bag with a line and a needle on the end, you stick the needle under the skin, you should be able do direct where you want the flow of the fluids to go, so if youre a little off center you should be able to move it to more center or add more to the left shoulder.

I just grabbed a video of me giving Callie a Sub q injection, I will upload it tomorrow asa demo, as I have to get ready for my shift right now. Unless youtube finishes before I have to leave.


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## rebeccashipp (Aug 27, 2011)

We'll definitely try letting it warm up to room temp. 

And a video demo would be great. Thanks!


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## Watermelons (Aug 27, 2011)

Heres the video
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iwl9dVA3UU&feature=channel_video_title]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iwl9dVA3UU&feature=channel_video_title[/ame]
I apologize for the poor terminology, but not everyone knows what a "bevel" is so its the long pointy end lol. And it is very difficult to film yourself doing something like this using a chair to hold the camera and get the right angle, ahhh!

So just make sure your bevel is at the bottom, the pointy tip runs along the animal where the more open part of the needle would be towards the skin.

Make sure the needle is on the syring tight enough, if air can get in at that area, its not going to inject properly either.


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## Bunnylova4eva (Aug 27, 2011)




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## Bunnylova4eva (Aug 27, 2011)

*rebeccashipp wrote: *


> I forgot to mention that she also has an ear infection.
> 
> Current mess include PennG injection once a week, Tresaderm in ears once a day, Gentocin in eyes and nose twice a day, and children's benadryl orally twice a day. The benadryl seems to make her breathing quieter, but no other improvements.



I used Tresaderm for my bunnies ear infection. I don't recomend it either. It temporarily helped, I thought she wa better and later it came back sooo bad she got head tilt and alot of the symptoms you're mentioning. I'll try to find an article I read about Tresaderm. Our vet recomended xrays for the ear infection and some more expensive stuff. We didn't do it, because we thought the drops had treated it.So did they. She ended up getting so bad and 6 monthslater she had to be put down. :'(( 

Just make sure after tresaderm the infections gone. Fully. My vet did the cytology/swabbed it and its showed no infection. However there was infection deeper in where he couldn't swab and that is what was so deceiving. 


How much Benedryl do you use? I'm needing to start using itwith my bunny, just curioushow much you give.


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## Pipp (Aug 27, 2011)

*GorbyJobRabbits wrote: *


> Honestly it's not going to cure it. You can put a little bit of apple cider vinegar in the water every day and it will help with some symptoms... as well as getting Duramyacin-10 from any feedstore with cattle supplies.
> 
> Did the vet also do a nasal swab and run the tests? because if not, then they don't know for sure it's snuffles.
> 
> Maybe other people on here will answer differently and be able to help in other ways.... I just personally wouldn't give PennG to a rabbit that will never be cured... and each breakout you will get to do this over and over again.


It could be a simple URI or a virulent strain of something that will be impossible to get rid of entirely but a) you have no way of knowing which is the case here, and b) even the latter is reduced or put into remission with antibiotics. 

Oral Tetracycline (Duramyacin-10) is NOT recommended for rabbits. While the risk of diarrhea is low compared to some others, it can be ineffective under various circumstances. Injected antibiotics are far more effective.

Most people on this forum are willing to treat as often as necessary, please respect their views. 


sas :expressionless


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## JadeIcing (Aug 27, 2011)

With the right meds most things can be put in check. I have done it with two of my bunnies both are thriving and none of the others have ever been sick.


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## WhatTheRAWR (Aug 28, 2011)

I'd use a smaller needle and use the advice above. Everyone has given a really good contribution to helping Becky and Snuffers. 

Hope she gets better


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## Maple Front Rabbitry (Aug 28, 2011)

*JadeIcing wrote: *


> With the right meds most things can be put in check. I have done it with two of my bunnies both are thriving and none of the others have ever been sick.


This is true, I think what the other poster meant was that although most rabbit illnesses can be cured, snuffles cannot. Hearing the symptoms it doesn't sound like snuffles to me, but just for future reference. Snuffles can be a nasty thing to deal with too


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## JadeIcing (Aug 28, 2011)

Well if you want to be technical snuffles is a general term, it isn't a medical one. What would be considered snuffles usually is a URI caused by pasteurella which is what my Ringo had. When we finally did the right med combo we got it to become dormant for a couple of years now.


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## Maple Front Rabbitry (Aug 28, 2011)

Yes it can go dormant, all I was saying is that it cannot actually be cured. Just trying to help


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## JadeIcing (Aug 28, 2011)

We should also mention that it is always in a rabbit. The problem is when the immune sytem is weakened causing an over abundance of it.


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## Maple Front Rabbitry (Aug 28, 2011)

Yeah I heard they did a study and like 80% of rabbits carry it in their lungs. It's the weaker ones that show symptoms.


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## JadeIcing (Aug 28, 2011)

It is insane the things in bunnies that don't harm them unless they are weakened in any way.


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## MILU (Aug 28, 2011)

GorbyJobRabbits wrote:


> Honestly it's not going to cure it. You can put a little bit of apple cider vinegar in the water every day and it will help with some symptoms... as well as getting Duramyacin-10 from any feedstore with cattle supplies.
> 
> 
> Did the vet also do a nasal swab and run the tests? because if not, then they don't know for sure it's snuffles.
> ...



I like this post, and I'm curious about the apple cider vinegar in water: How much apple cider vinegar should we mix in the water? I suppose you mean drinking water?


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## rebeccashipp (Aug 28, 2011)

> Bunnylova4eva wrote:
> 
> How much Benedryl do you use?Â  I'm needing to start using itÂ with my bunny, just curiousÂ how much you give[




We give 1 mL every 12 hours. It's the stuff with 12.5mg of diphenhydramine per teaspoon


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## rebeccashipp (Aug 28, 2011)

Well, we just gave Snuffers her injection. We tried it at room temp and made sure the needle could move under her skin before injecting. It took 40 min and 7 needle tips before we could get the penG in. 

I'm sure we're doing it right- it just seems like the pressure in the syringe is off. When we get it through her skin, we literally cannot push the plunger in no matter how hard we try. I think we may need to talk to vet about better syringes- not sure what else it can be.

I do want to thank you all for the suggestions and the you tube video. We'll just keep trying and talking to the vet, and maybe we'll get it figured out. Thanks again!


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## Bunnylova4eva (Aug 29, 2011)

*rebeccashipp wrote: *


> > Bunnylova4eva wrote:
> >
> > How much Benedryl do you use? I'm needing to start using itwith my bunny, just curioushow much you give[
> 
> ...



Ok dokey!  Thanks for the reply! -How big is your bunny? I don't want to give the adult size bunny amount tomy little bunny..


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## Offspring2099 (Aug 31, 2011)

The needles we use are 25Gauge(diameter) by 5/8 in (length). These are very very thin, and its like night and day between these and thicker 20 gauge, they go in so much easier.


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## Maureen Las (Aug 31, 2011)

In the July 27th 11:28 Am post in this thread I describe how I give bicillin 
maybe some of this will help 

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=48224&forum_id=16&highlight=angieluv+how+to+give+bicillin+injections


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## MILU (Aug 31, 2011)

How is your bunny? Better? I hope so!!


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## Dragonrain (Sep 2, 2011)

Hey!

Don't know if you still need help but I had to give one of my boys PenG injections awhile back and I actually had the same problem at first. I don't think, at least in my situation, that it was the needles because once I got better at giving the injections and got the hang of it they worked just fine.

Are you sure you're getting the needle in deep enough? My vet told me to put it under the skin. If you don't get the needle all the way through the layers of skin than I think what happens is that the rabbit's skin blocks the hole in the needle, which creates the problem you're describing. Did you're vet show you how to tent the skin and all that? Maybe taking the rabbit back in and having them show you again would be helpful?

Once you get the hang of it giving the injections does get easier! I had a bit of trouble with them at first too but I was an old pro at it by the time my guy was nearing the end of his treatment. Good luck!


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## CCWelch (Sep 9, 2011)

How much PenG did the vet give you? I had a bun with pneumonia recently and she weighs in at 10lbs, she was given 1 full cc daily for 7 days plus 10 days on Duramycin-10 then we had to do an additional 7 days of Pen-G because her lungs weren't completely clear. Now she is fine.

I would definitely add the Duramycin-10 to what you are doing. I had a problem getting her shots in so I did it like a dog...pull up on the skin over her back and push it in there being careful not to go all the way through, I often had to stick her several times and I am a trained vet tech.


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