# To the rabbit breeders



## ilovetegocalderon (Jan 19, 2006)

How many of you are actual rabbit breeders?Â  And I'm not trying to start a war or anything, just merely want your opinion - what is your defense to those who say that there is an over population of rabbits and breeding doesnt help and whenyou sell your rabbits to others you are taking away a possible whom to one of the MANY rabbits in a shelter?


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## nose_twitch (Jan 19, 2006)

*shudders and hides, praying for peace on earth*

ray:


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## m.e. (Jan 19, 2006)

I'm going torepeat here what I wrote in another thread:

Breeding animals constitute a _very small_ number, and are almostinsignificant within thelarger picture of overpopulation.Breeders are not the ones creating mixed breeds, or abandoning theiranimals at shelters. Many breeders will not even sell their rabbits aspets, for fear that the new owners may try to breed theiranimals.

There are many causes to overpopulation,and breeders are near the bottom of the list. I say this as someone whohas researched and worked in animal rescue, so please don'tmisunderstand me. Breeders are an easy target, but they are not theproblem.


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## alfie and angel (Jan 19, 2006)

Thanks m.e - 

I was looking for thread in which you wrote that- it's very well putand made me think differently about the r/ship between breeding andoverpopulation.

I volunteer at arescue centre too and so I would probablyalways prefer to adopt than go to a breeder as a first port of call butit's a personal choice and I think that not only is the point that m.emakes very important but that it should also be noted thatresponsible breeders play a vital part, along with rescue centres inraisingawareness of the dangers and ethical pitfalls ofirresponsible breeding.

More than anything, this forum helps to educate in precisely this vein- I remember a very passionate'Read Before You Breed'Campaign taking place on this forum not so very long ago...


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## seniorcats (Jan 19, 2006)

As someone who has worked in rescue for manyyears, our biggest problem comes from unintentional breeding - peoplewho get a pair of rabbits as petsand the rabbits reproduceand then there are more and more and more and the person who startedwith 2 pets is sitting in a heap of bunnies. Unfortunatelythese inexperienced folks just don't realize how young rabbits canstart reproducing, how it only takes seconds for a mating and theyrarely have the knowledge to sex and seperate. Occassionallywe work with hoarders - genuinely mentally ill people, who hoard a lotmore than animals.

We also have a problem in this areawith carnivals and fairsthat give away live rabbits as prizes because they are cheaper thanother prizes. Many of these rabbits end up surrended to us orend up being let loose in a neighborhood and rounded up by rescue.

Another problem for us in rescue are people who get Easter rabbitsthinking they are cute and cuddly. They have no idea of thecare and no idea of how badly an adolescent bunny can behave.3 months after Easter, they are calling all the rescues.

I think we have only had 1 rabbit come in from a breeder and that wassomeone in 4H who had some family problems. We simply don'tsee pedigreed rabbits in rescue.

Most of the people who adopt from us are interested in a companionanimal and not in showing. I think those folks who go tobreeders for a predigreed animal are probably more interested inshowing. I see the same thing with cat rescue.Those potential adopters are interested in specific breeds and notjust a companion animal.

I do not breed and do not intend to but I also do not think legitmatebreeders need to justify their existence. In my experiencewith rescue in my part of the state, breeders are not a part of theproblem. We also have numerous breeders in this area who takein a limited number of rescues to either foster or to adopt out aspets. 

Hope you don't mind me answering even though I am not a breeder.


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## huntress (Jan 19, 2006)

I breed and have no problem telling people thata responsible breeder does not cause the overpopulation problem. Thekey word here being "responsible". I sell very very few pet rabbits. Imainly raise my rabbits for show. But I do supply my excess as meat, Ihave a market that will take all that I can provide.Themajority of the live rabbits I sell are sold as show animals. I also donot sell to pet stores.

The nearest proximity of a shelter is an hour and a half away. I checktheir website frequently and rarely see rabbits up for adoption. On theother hand I have had people driveten hour roundtripto buy a show quality rabbit for a pet.


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## AnnaS (Jan 19, 2006)

I don't think this discussion is leading to anything good.


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## ilovetegocalderon (Jan 23, 2006)

Thanks for all your responses.Contrary to AnnaS' opinion, i found your answers polite and insightfuland helped me better understand the ethics of breeding.


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## TinysMom (Jan 23, 2006)

I've been thinking about your question for a bit now and thought I'd take a moment to answer it.

I live in a small rural area of the country. We have no petstores within 3 hours one way....same with shelters. The onlyplace I know of that you can get rabbits locally - is at the feed store.

So I breed lionheads...for pets and for show. I am working atbuilding a good line of lionheads known for type, mane, and especiallytemperament. (Huntress would probably say they're known fortheir ears too since they're still too big).

Anyway - I think there is a place for breeders...for show rabbits - butalso sometimes we're working on a breed that perhaps not many arebreeding (Palominos for instance I think - not sure). Ormaybe we're developing a new breed (like lionheads or velveteenlops). 

I do have a problem with the backyard breeder though who doesn't knowwhat they're doing. I've been studying genetics and workingwith other breeders to create good lionheads that are healthy, etc.

One thing to remember about a breeder is that they can frequently tellyou about the animal you're interested in plus frequently the parentsand maybe even grandparents too!

I do think it is great that folks get rabbits from rescueshelters....I'm not knocking that. I think there is a placefor shelters and a place for breeders.

Peg


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## ilovetegocalderon (Jan 24, 2006)

I definitly can see where you are coming from TinysMom. Thanks for sharing.


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## rabbitgirl (Jan 25, 2006)

*TinysMom wrote:*


> but also sometimes we're working on a breed thatperhaps not many are breeding (Palominos for instance I think - notsure).




You've got that right. Pals are extremely rare! We need more responsible breeders for this breed.

Rose


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## Erins Rabbits (Feb 10, 2009)

I've been thinking about a good defense to this since I was booted off of 'Bunspace'. The answer, for me, is that, If I've been paying close enough attention,HRS people, rescuers,etc, are always keen on rescuingmeat rabbits. Seriously. You really think you'll be able to find homes for 200 big, white, meat rabbits? But that's okay. Cause they won't ever be on someones plate. Don't get me wrong- the thought of eating a rabbit kills me (vegetarian) but we have to be aware of the fact that maybe there wouldn't be so many euthanised, put in shelters, abandoned if we weren't so opposed to even the most humane methods of slaughter.

:sofa:

I am one of several breeders who only sells/gives bunnies to people who know what they're getting into, have raised rabbits in the past, or present. I had an, ah, interesting ordeal with a potential pet owner that changed my whole outlook. He lied to me about the two little does he was taking. They were to be suposed pets. About an hour later his daughter came up and told us they were under their kitchen sink, waiting for slaughter. This killed me, so I went down, gave the man his money back, and took them home. They are now both living with a little girl who is using them for 4-h. I won't sell to pet stores, feed stores, or anyone irresponsible. 

JMPO.


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## irishbunny (Feb 10, 2009)

This is a good question, your very brave 
I always thought breeders in the USA must have a part to play in the problem, they have ARBA and 4-H and all that and rabbitrys often breed a very large amount of rabbits. Whereas here in Ireland, no one keeps large rabbitrys, breeders only keep a few rabbits and breed every so often, we have nothing like ARBA and have no rabbit shows, but we have no rabbit overpopulation and a rabbit only ever comes into a shelter once every month or two. 

This was just my own theory though and I can see now it's probably not the case.


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## clevername (Feb 10, 2009)

*ilovetegocalderon wrote: *


> How many of you are actual rabbitbreeders? And I'm not trying to start a war or anything, justmerely want your opinion - what is your defense to those who say thatthere is an overpopulation of rabbits and breeding doesnt help and whenyou sell your rabbits to others you are taking away a possible whom toone of the MANY rabbits in a shelter?


I'm a rabbit breeder. I currently keep 4 different breeds, 3 of which are considered rare.

I breed to practical purposes. My angora are for wool; Silver Fox and Americans are for conservation. I sell to people who approach me for pets, livestock and/or show and I meet my buyers face to face before exchanging rabbits. I even have a policy in which I will take back any animal I've sold if the owner can no longer care for them.

_"what is your defense to those who say thatthere is an overpopulation of rabbits_?"
Personally, most of my rabbits are endangered. Overpopulation doesn't apply to them. 

I DO see a whole lot of mix breeds in shelters though, which seems to imply that these rabbits aren't coming from show breeders but from the general pet population. You can't force people not to breed their pets anymore than you can force them to take good care of them. So I really don't agree with the guff people give towards breeders if its the pet owners who contribute to most of the problem.

"whenyou sell your rabbits to others you are taking away a possible whom toone of the MANY rabbits in a shelter?"
I don't think my rabbits take homes away from shelter rabbits because _most_ adoptable rabbits wouldn't be a suitable replacement. I get people coming to me who want a specific type/breed of rabbit and its a little hard to find that at a shelter.

I also don't really understand how shelters can be overstocked with rabbits...I have 37 right now and I'm doing just fine. On average is takes about $14 a year to feed a rabbit and only a minimal amount of upkeep to maintain their health (with the exception of angora breeds). 

I'm all for placing these guys in good homes, but I don't think my small rabbitry has any impact on the wellfare of the rabbits currently in shelters.

Just my perspective. No offense intended.


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## NorthernAutumn (Feb 10, 2009)

Wow, post from the past  Remember, this was first brought up in 2006; won't the original posters be surprised to see it again?


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## irishlops (Feb 10, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> This is a good question, your very brave
> I always thought breeders in the USA must have a part to play in the problem, they have ARBA and 4-H and all that and rabbitrys often breed a very large amount of rabbits. Whereas here in Ireland, no one keeps large rabbitrys, breeders only keep a few rabbits and breed every so often, we have nothing like ARBA and have no rabbit shows, but we have no rabbit overpopulation and a rabbit only ever comes into a shelter once every month or two.
> 
> This was just my own theory though and I can see now it's probably not the case.


ok im not a breeder.) so... yes, in shelter near me. only dogs an cats are in there...
it has places for rabbits aswell but only 5 were there. then they were bought, and the spaces were empty for 3months!!!
i think breeding in small no. helps rare breeds. i am just really repeting what others have said...


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## Jenson (Feb 10, 2009)

*ilovetegocalderon wrote: *


> How many of you are actual rabbitbreeders? And I'm not trying to start a war or anything, justmerely want your opinion - what is your defense to those who say thatthere is an overpopulation of rabbits and breeding doesnt help and whenyou sell your rabbits to others you are taking away a possible whom toone of the MANY rabbits in a shelter?


I breed Standard Rex on a small scale. 

I don't have a problem with breeding pedigree rabbits if the right motivation is there. I breed Rex because I love the breed. Standard Rex numbers have been dropping for a long time in the UK, as is happening with many breeds. I don't feel guilty at all for breeding because I know that this breed in particular desperately need more dedicated people to help keep them going or they will die out. We have already seen some colours disappear. 

I also agree entirely with clevername, you don't see a lot of pedigree rabbits needing homes (in the UK at least), which suggests the problem is not with dedicated breeders, but people who breed carelessly for fun/profit/whatever and don't spay/neuter their pets.

I breed for type, health and temperament. I try to breed to the breed standard and I breed for what I think makes a good Standard Rex. 

I also donate to rabbit rehome, rescues and the PDSA etc. whenever I can, as well as having rescued a good number of rabbits myself. I am concerned about the over population which is why I discourage careless or needless breeding, but you also have to understand that good, responsible breeding is vital for the welfare of rabbits and the survival of our different breeds. _
_


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## naturestee (Feb 10, 2009)

Holy old thread!

As a rescue person and shelter volunteer, I'm A-OK with show breeders, people breeding for good type, realistic expectations and plans for the babies, etc. I do wish more 4H kids here were better instructed, and when we do get a tattooed rabbit it usually came from a 4H kid. Either they got tired of caring for it (fairly common) or didn't plan well for the babies they bred. Very few if any of our rabbits were bred by show breeders. 

Now, backyard/irresponsible breeders- I could strangle some of them. Anyone who knows my experience with fostering babies for the shelter and how a whole big group of rabbits ended up having syphilis from their owner's stupidity (not to mention every female came in pregnant and had to be spayed ASAP, my mama bun was missed so she had her litter and we're still trying to find homes for them 7months later)... yeah I'd probably hurt that person if I were ever to meet her. Same with the person who dumped his baby factories on us the day after Easter. These are the people I have issues with.


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## polly (Feb 10, 2009)

I think the main problem breeders have is that we all get lumped together by a lot of pet people they don't understand show breeding for type conservation because they are so upset about how many rabbits are unwanted or in shelters. Unfortunately though good breeders know as much and understand the problems better as they can see both sides but never get seen to be like this becuase people dont see past "breeder!!" 

I breed netherland dwarfs reason : a lot of people decided to give up certain nethie colours when mini lops first came on the scene. Yes nethies are a well represented breed though I would say misunderstood sometimes temprement wise but they are a breed true to my heart as they are what i had as pets before beginning breeding and it was my love of the breed when i was having problems getting a new one that too me into breeding and showing them.


Lionheads: well actually I am going to be stopping breeding these mainly because I dont feel teh standard adhered to and there are plenty of people taking the challenge up to get them to a creditable similar standard


Bleu beverens: I am taking these on in place of the lionheads which is another reason I have given LH's up. Beverens are a very old breed and were one of the first breeder clubs in the Uk that also went on to work with the main clubs of the time and start the BRC they are now almost a rare breed with smaller rabbits becoming more popular. Would I sell them as pets well to be honest there are so few around you would be very lucky to get one as a pet possibly I would but boy would you have to prove yourself to me first!!


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## naturestee (Feb 10, 2009)

Polly, you're very right that many rescue people lump all breeders together. It's pretty rotten. I wish I could drag some of these people to shows so they can see responsible breeders. I've only had time to go to one so far as I usually have to drive a fair bit, but it was a great experience and everyone was so nice. More of us have seen the 4H shows at county fairs, and those can be hit or miss as far as the standard of care and knowledge of the kids. It really depends on the adults running the program. Unfortunately in my area they don't seem very good and they care more about making the child feel good than quality rabbit care and breeding. It's not unusual to see larger buns with bad urine burns and bleeding sore hocks getting blue ribbons.


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## polly (Feb 10, 2009)

*naturestee wrote: *


> Polly, you're very right that many rescue people lump all breeders together. It's pretty rotten. I wish I could drag some of these people to shows so they can see responsible breeders. I've only had time to go to one so far as I usually have to drive a fair bit, but it was a great experience and everyone was so nice. More of us have seen the 4H shows at county fairs, and those can be hit or miss as far as the standard of care and knowledge of the kids. It really depends on the adults running the program. Unfortunately in my area they don't seem very good and they care more about making the child feel good than quality rabbit care and breeding. It's not unusual to see larger buns with bad urine burns and bleeding sore hocks getting blue ribbons.


thats sad  mind you brings us all back to the do you have the time inclination etc to do all the things your rabbits need you to do !


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## JadeIcing (Feb 12, 2009)

*naturestee wrote: *


> As a rescue person and shelter volunteer, I'm A-OK with show breeders, people breeding for good type, realistic expectations and plans for the babies, etc. I do wish more 4H kids here were better instructed, and when we do get a tattooed rabbit it usually came from a 4H kid. Either they got tired of caring for it (fairly common) or didn't plan well for the babies they bred. Very few if any of our rabbits were bred by show breeders.




I feel the same. Trust me I am often times a minority in that. 

clevername* wrote: *


> _"what is your defense to those who say thatthere is an overpopulation of rabbits_?"
> Personally, most of my rabbits are endangered. Overpopulation doesn't apply to them.
> 
> I DO see a whole lot of mix breeds in shelters though, which seems to imply that these rabbits aren't coming from show breeders but from the general pet population. You can't force people not to breed their pets anymore than you can force them to take good care of them. So I really don't agree with the guff people give towards breeders if its the pet owners who contribute to most of the problem.




First I have had 9 rabbits as my own. Out of my own bunnies minus the petstore ones....5 are or were purebred.2 of those 4 were rehomes. One for good reasons the other. 1 is a foster I adopted.:X

12 fosters 1 I adopted. Those twelve fosters... Half the fosters were pure bred one being the one I adopted. 

Big difference between good breeders and bad breeders. We have breeders in parts of Mass and CT that are dumping bunnies outsidethat don't meet their standards.


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## DyemondRabbitry (Feb 12, 2009)

Breeder here. Started as a 4-H project and I know head the county 4-H rabbit program as well as show in ARBA. The point is- we have to TEACH people how to be good breeders- too many people fall into the trap of "I bet it would be cute if I bred this to this......" NO! People need to understand genetics and how to care for their animals before EVER, EVER trying to breed them!!


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## Luv-bunniz (Feb 12, 2009)

clevername wrote:


> _"what is your defense to those who say thatthere is an overpopulation of rabbits_?"
> Personally, most of my rabbits are endangered. Overpopulation doesn't apply to them.


Overpopulation applys to every rabbit, no matter what the breed.


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## clevername (Feb 12, 2009)

*Luv-bunniz wrote: *


> clevername wrote:
> 
> 
> > _"what is your defense to those who say thatthere is an overpopulation of rabbits_?"
> ...


Show me a rescue with a Silver Fox in it. How about an _actual_ American?

I realize your point though, every rabbit contributes to the problem no matter where they come from. But what I'm saying is it's unlikely my rabbits contribute. The odds (considering their rarity and how I handle sell off stock) are just against it. _

Heck if they are getting popular enough to show up at shelters maybe that's a good thing. _We'll know they aren't extinct yet.


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## TinysMom (Feb 12, 2009)

*Luv-bunniz wrote: *


> clevername wrote:
> 
> 
> > _"what is your defense to those who say thatthere is an overpopulation of rabbits_?"
> ...


I am so glad we have breeders working on those endangered bunnies - and a great place like this forum which is BREEDER FRIENDLY and accepts and supports responsible breeding.

Where I live - there is no shelter within 180 miles that I know of - possibly even further. The only way people get rabbits - is from the breeders in the area....and when I called the pound to see about people turning in rabbits (to offer to help foster, etc) - they laughed at me. Turns out they've never had a rabbit turned in - at least that the guy I talked to knew of...

Even now that I'm no longer breeding - I still get calls and requests about bunnies.

I think its sad that there are a lot of areas in the country where there is an overpopulation of rabbits - I really do. But I am also happy that in areas like mine - where we have no rabbits in shelters, etc - we are still able to get rabbits!


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## clevername (Feb 12, 2009)

LOL!

Okay now I have to eat my words.
There's hope yet for the Silver Fox! ha ha


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## naturestee (Feb 12, 2009)

I don't know, that looks like a lop to me. Maybe a mix?

I'm pretty sure there was an actual Silver Fox at our shelter a few years ago. One of the 4H families has a few so that's probably where it came from. But in my experience there's a bunch of breeds that you only see at shows and only very, very very rarely in rescues or shelters. These are the largebreeds (aside from NZs and Calis) and the arched breeds. And English lops.

I still stand by my feeling that responsible show breeders rarely contribute to overpopulation issues. Go blame the guy mass producing lionheads and holland lops and selling them to pet stores.


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## TinysMom (Feb 12, 2009)

The majority of breeders I've dealt with - ask that if you need to rehome your rabbit - you return it to them and they will find a home for it. Or they at least want first dibs on it if you want to rehome it.....and not just for breeding purposes.


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## clevername (Feb 12, 2009)

*naturestee wrote: *


> I don't know, that looks like a lop to me. Maybe a mix?


I'm pretty sure its a Silver Fox. The silvering trait is recessive and his weight is spot on. SF can be mistaken for Silvers sometimes, but their build and fur is very different. My guess is that this one either has summer ear or was sold off for having poor ear carriage. They really are sweet bunnies so can't blame anyone for seeing them as a possible pet.

*TinysMom wrote: *


> The majority of breeders I've dealt with - ask that if you need to rehome your rabbit - you return it to them and they will find a home for it. Or they at least want first dibs on it if you want to rehome it.....and not just for breeding purposes.


I think that's a really good policy. Maybe we should mention it in our "breeding responsibly" post?


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## BlueGiants (Feb 13, 2009)

It is an excellent policy for a breeder to take back any rabbit that they have ever bred. Most of us have gone through all kinds of trouble to get back a bunny of "ours". Responsibility starts at birth.


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## DyemondRabbitry (Feb 13, 2009)

I actually have one breeder I know that makes you sign a legal release when you get the rabbit for a pet that if you no longer want it- you send it back to her...like when you adopt from a shelter. I'm not sure if it requires spay or neuter but it does require that if the rabbit has babies and you can't find homes you contact the breeder.


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## Luv-bunniz (Feb 13, 2009)

TinysMom wrote:


> *Luv-bunniz wrote: *
> 
> 
> > clevername wrote:
> ...


Dont for a minute think that was an "anti-breeding" post. I was just saying that ever rabbit bred is another added to the population. Looking at the bigger picture, if all people who bred rabbits (note, I didnt say "if all breeders", as I dont consider someone who has had a few "fun" litters a breeder) bred purebred rabbits and offered to take them back, then there wouldn't be as many rabbits in shelters and maybe breeders would think twice before breeding another rabbit for babies to show/sell? 
I think the main problem is ignorant people purchasing rabbits from petstores or impulse purchases from pet stores.


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## flexedHollands (Feb 15, 2009)

Ive been to plenty of shelters and continue to drop by once in a while, ive seen plenty of "pure breds" that are to be brutally honest ugly and poor examples of the breed, usually as a result of pet qual bred to pet qual. The rest are mainly mixes. Once in a blue moon I see a half decent pure bred in there, its usually gone in about a day or so. 
I breed mini rex and hollands for show, I only have one unpedigreed doe in the rabbitry and that is because she is a great foster mother. My culls go for pets or for meat. I never dump at shelters, and frankly when someone calls for a pet and they dont seem to know what they are doing or be all that responsible, I just stop communicating with them, and say I have nothing left. In addition I always take back my rabbits if some1 cant keep them (ONLY ever occured once and the bun was rehomed). And all my animals are health guarenteed.
My show quality rabbits are not cheap, which usually weeds out those who arent really serious about owning a rabbit. In addition im quite sure that if they ever ended up in a shelter(unlikely) they wouldnt last longer than a day or so.
My point in the end is that Shelters need to learn that being no kill is foolish, in the end you hurt more animals than you help. Culling the sick, the agressive, the elderly as horrible as it sounds is the best way to ensure that the younger animals who are victims of bad curcimstance get a second chance.
Also rescuing 200 MEAT rabbits COMON, if their conditions where deplorable fine take them from those conditions and place them in better ones but that shouldnt have changed their ultimate destination.


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## flexedHollands (Feb 15, 2009)

A responsible breeder has a plan and a market more than one in most cases, which usually prevents them from contributing to the problem.


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## gentle giants (Feb 18, 2009)

Rabbits from responsible breeders are far less likely to wind up in shelters, because as Blue Giants said, almost all of them will tell a new owner to bring the rabbit back if they have to let go of it. I know there were a couple of times that I wouldn't sell a rabbit to a certain person if they weren't willing to spay/neuter it. I had one lady that was asking about my Flemmie babies, and said she didn't think it would be necesary to spay/neuter asit wouldn't be around any other rabbit. I mentioned certainbad behaviors that a spay will stop, and her response was: "Come on, it's just a rabbit!" 

ssd:


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## Erins Rabbits (Feb 18, 2009)

I get so tired of people talking down to me because I breed rabbits. The closest pet store to me is two hours away, our Humane $ociety doesn't even HAVE rabbits, there is no overpopulation here! I breed to fuel my hobby, and yes, I sell my rabbits, if only to help with their upkeep and at best pay the feed bill. 

People on bunspace, I'm sure some of you have heard of it, get so upset if you so much as mention breeders. Topics are shut down for leading into controversial topics and bunny people are encouraged to feed their rabbits only fresh veggies, yet you see so many die off, with diarrhea or other related illnesses. It's all pretty silly.

I can't see why we all can't reach a compromise. We all share a common interest- there is so much conflict between breeder and pet owner, but there shouldn't be. When it comes down to it we all love our rabbits, or we wouldn't be involved with them. When it comes down to it it's the guy with a couple rabbits in his back yard with a get rich quick scheme is the one contributing to any overpopulation, NOT those of us breeding for the breed.


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## clevername (Feb 19, 2009)

I can't get over how much hypocrisy I encounter...
I got contacted the other day by a girl who really wanted a purebred angora. But couldn't help but bad mouth me along the way about the fact that I breed. Apparently she thought it was "abuse".:twitch:

I don't think people realize that if they follow their claims to their logical conclusion those rabbit breeds that are so special and unique will deteriorate into run of the mill rabbit mutts if there aren't responsible people maintaining the breed.


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## flexedHollands (Feb 19, 2009)

Yes the hypocrasy is disgusting. I enjoy posting on rabbit forums, and learning things from pple there. However many of these pet forums have some kinda hate on for the show and breeding world. Dont they realize that as breeders we know much more than the average pet owner simply because we have to to be successful. If you ever read half the stuff on their forums its simply BS and what I like to call pet owners knowledge. They have various problems health temperment which are quite easily fixed but instead of listening to someone who has seen in it a million times before they dismiss you as an abuser and try all these complicated remedies.

Also the attitude that show rabbits are miserable and abused is hilarious those are probably some of the most well cared for rabbits in the world...otherwise they wouldnt win anything...

Btw if someone ever tried to talk down to me and buy a rabbit at the same time they would be going home empty handed


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## clevername (Feb 19, 2009)

*flexedHollands wrote: *


> Btw if someone ever tried to talk down to me and buy a rabbit at the same time they would be going home empty handed


I sent her a link to Petfinder and haven't heard from her since thankfully.


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## flexedHollands (Feb 19, 2009)

LOL...let her try to find a pure bred English Angora on pet finder. LOL..a nice pure bred anything for that matter. Most of the stuff they lable as pure bred is mixes or just really poor examples of the breed


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## gingers_giants (Feb 19, 2009)

I am a breeder, andI am VERY proud of it too!! 

I breedFlemish Giants.So far I am breeding them again for show,but when I bred them in the past I soldthem for show and for pet. I always tell people that I sell to that if for whatever reason they are unable to care for their rabbit it comes back to me no questions asked, I just want it back.I even enforce this with my own family(my stepsisteris thinking about getting a rabbit from me for her 2 boys)thats how much I care for the welfare ofthe rabbits that leave my home. 

I breed them because I love showing them, andI want to keep the breed going. I belong to the National Federation of Flemish Giants Rabbit Breeders, Eastern States Flemish Giant Rabbit Breeders, and of course ARBA. Raising and showing rabbits isntjust a way to make quick cash or whatever(I havent even sold a current litter I decided to keep the most recent one), its a way of life and a passion for me. My rabbits are my children andpeople that are close to me know that.Flemish Giants have been around for over 90 years and I hope that it just keeps going for MANY years to come. Flemish Giant people are also great. They people that I have made friends with thatbelong toEastern States Flemish Giant Rabbit Breeders and other Flemish Giantrabbitclubsare now like anextended family to me and I wouldnttrade that for the world. They are also peoplethat are passionate aboutshowing and raisinggood Quality Giants.I dont just throw 2 rabbits together and hope for the best. Whenever I buy rabbits they have to be what I am looking for to add to my breeding stock, and I like them to be showable as well. I dohaveone that isnt showable but she will make nice quality babies for show.All of my litters are planned and I breed for the best quality because lets face it...winning at shows is fun esp when you are showing your own stock that you have bred yourself..I just love showing rabbits in general whether it be something from my stock or something I have bought. 



For the most partwhen people find out I breed and show rabbits they think its really neat and want me to tell them all about it.Sadly I get a great deal of criticism from people I talk to. As soon as the word breeder is mentioned they automatically assume you are running some kind of "bunny-mill" and selling all your rabbitsto pet stores and such. I think its mostly because somepeople dont understand that people really do show rabbits, and raise them for show quality. I get a lot of jokes too about rabbits reproducing so much when I mention that I am a breeder. I just kindly explain to them that Its controlled breeding and it isnt just a free for all. I have even gotten grief about my rabbits from a vet where I take them. This vet treated me like I was a monster when I informed him that no I would not be spaying and neutering my rabbits because I planned on breeding them. I defended myself but allowed him to express how he felt...needless to say though I dont see that vet anymore. I still go to the same practice I just see a different vet that is there that treats rabbits. 

I love breeding and showing my rabbits, and I wouldnt change a single thing. People can either like me or hate me for being a breeder, and thats fine by me because Im still going to keep doing what makes me happy.


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## gentle giants (Feb 19, 2009)

Critisism of breeders all comes from ignorance, when you come right down to it. Of course, AR people push that hype as well, they love for everyone to hate allbreeders. Another thing that kills me is the ignorance you see from people working in and running shelters. I got a forwarded email from a friend today, and she only sent it to me because the bunnies pictured were really cute, but it kinda set me off. Here is the first part of it:

"Sid and Nancy (Petraits attached) are a pair of healthy, happy 
two-year-old docile, sweet, gentle and friendly rabbits looking for a 
loving home together. Nancy, the brown rabbit, is a Dwarf Silver Martin 
Rex; her significant other Sid is an English Spotted Mini Rex. These two 
are a bonded pair, love each other, hang out together, eat and snuggle 
together."


I wonder when the English Spotted Mini Rex and the DwarfSilver Martin Rexwill be accepted by the ARBA? Wouldn't you love to have the COD on those babies!It goes on to tell people that you shouldn't feed pellets at all unless your rabbit is old or sick. How many of your average rabbit owners are going to be able to keep the proper weight on a rabbit with no pellets at all?


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## pixelle (Feb 19, 2009)

I thought the first page of replies were an interesting discussion about breed integrity vs. overpopulation. I'd be interested in reading more from breeders about why they breed and how they justify it. I'm a pet owner who adopted a rescued rabbit and this other side of rabbit raising is informative and thought provoking for me. (I'm sorry that some of you have been hurt by ignorance. I wish it hadn't happened. I understand the need to vent. But there are pet owners and rabbit rescuers who read these boards and some of the comments on here are starting to turn hurtful.)


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## RAL Rabbitry (Feb 19, 2009)

I breed and show rabbits because I enjoy it! The rabbits are great stress reducers and nothing is more fun to me than to get home from work and spend time with them. I love going to shows and seeing friends and showing my rabbits win or lose. I don't worry about finding homes for pets or selling show quality rabbits. I have waiting lists for both. I also take back any rabbit that someone can't keep and rehome them. My rabbits are friendly and people oriented because they are handled from the day that they are born and the show quality ones are all across the country. I get at least a dozen emails a week at certain times of the year for show rabbits and usually have to turn many of them down because I can't supply them. I don't breed for the money because there is definately no profit to be made from breeding rabbits. My breedings are planned well in advance sometimes generations in advance. A buck and doe are not just thrown together to make babies. I strive for quality breedings and not quantity and have a high show quality ratio in very litter.

Quite franklyI really don't care what other people think of breeders. I know my rabbits are well cared for, fed twice daily, have plenty of toys to play with and most are just about falling out of the cages to get scratches on the head. If they were not well cared for they would not do as well as they do on the show table. Overpopulation is not an issue around here. The last time I was at the shelter there was not one rabbit there.

I get very sick of antibreeders using overpopulation as an excuse to target breeders. The last time I looked it was not against the law. What is against the law is not taking good care of your animals and I will take a stand against that. Everyone has a right to their opinion but once the point is made then they should respect the rights of people to other people and not harp on it. 

Roger


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## Dublinperky (Feb 19, 2009)

I am part of 4-H and I am planning to breed my rabbits. I think that if the breeder is trying to improve the breed and his breeding on a small scale it is okay. I personally have already set up an interview system to make sure that the person that buys my bunny will know how to take care of them. I even have a page on my website talking about what it really takes to be a rabbit owner and the responsibility in it. I support my local shelter (Yay! NTRS!) So I come to my point for people that are responsible and really care I think that breeding is okay!

Aly!


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## Baby Juliet (Feb 19, 2009)

It's not the breeders but rescuers that cause the problem. NYC is overfilled with pigeons but you never find one at the animal shelter.


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## Tinkerbell Rabbitry (Feb 19, 2009)

nose_twitch wrote:


> *shudders and hides, praying for peace on earth*<br><br>ray:<br>



Same here!!!!

-Hannah


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## naturestee (Feb 19, 2009)

Pixelle- I come from the rescue/pet side of things also. I think one thing people don't realise is the number of rabbit breeds: [edited- lost half of my post]

Baby Juliet wrote: 


> It's not the breeders but rescuers that cause the problem. NYC is overfilled with pigeons but you never find one at the animal shelter.


Uh... I guess I'm totally missing your point? What do wild pigeons have to do with rabbits in shelters, and how is it my fault as a rescuer when some irresponsible jerk dumps his unsold rabbits on the local Humane Society the day after Easter? Or someone looses his house and brings his rabbits/cats/dogs to the Humane Society? I don't agree with "rescuing" meat rabbits unless it's a situation where they were confiscated by authorities foranimal crueltyreasons, but if the rabbit's in a shelter then I'll help it.

For the last year, the Humane Society I volunteer at has had half or so of it's rabbits come directly from backyard/irresponsible breeders, the rest from (mainly) rresponsiblepet owners. A very small number of the pets were purchased from 4H or ARBA breeders, most were from pet stores or various other sources.


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## naturestee (Feb 19, 2009)

ARGH! It keeps eating my post! OK, here's what's missing:

http://www.arba.net/Breeds.htm

Breeds in danger of disappearing:

http://www.albc-usa.org/cpl/wtchlist.html#rabbits

I do recommend going to an ARBA show at least once. It's a great- and eye opening- experience.


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## Baby Juliet (Feb 20, 2009)

My point is people keep pigeons as pets yet they don't end up in shelters. Why not? Ever heard of a pigeon rescue? However people see a loose rabbit and right away they try to catch it and lock it up.

Another problem is hunters who eat rabbits won't eat domestic rabbits for fear of drugs that might be used on the rabbits. Many owners at least use flea and tick controls.


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## clevername (Feb 20, 2009)

*Baby Juliet wrote: *


> My point is people keep pigeons as pets yet they don't end up in shelters. Why not? Ever heard of a pigeon rescue? However people see a loose rabbit and right away they try to catch it and lock it up.


I _think _this is a little different. Our domestic rabbits have been in captivity and selectively breed for hundreds of years. If you see them in the wild they stick out like a sore thumb and in general don't last very long. Pigeons on the other hand have pretty much gone feral, there is no need to interfere.


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## gentle giants (Feb 20, 2009)

*pixelle wrote: *


> (I'm sorry that some of you have been hurt by ignorance. I wish it hadn't happened. I understand the need to vent. But there are pet owners and rabbit rescuers who read these boards and some of the comments on here are starting to turn hurtful.)



I hope that wasn't directed at me, I was not intending to be hurtful at all. When I said breeder critisism comes from ignorance, what I meant was this: When your average person thinks of a breeder, they think of rabbits crammed into tiny, dirty cages and bred constantly with no time for rest. They don't know/understand that responsible breeders are not like that at all. I am not breeding anymore, but I will tell you whatmy reasons/goals were when I was.

When I bred a rabbit, and it's the same for all of us that care, it was not just to make pretty babies. I thought carefully about the two rabbits I was putting together-were they good examples of the breed? Were they gentle and easy to handle? And here is the biggy: _Have they ever shown signs of ill health or such problems that they could pass on? _When breeders talk about "Breeding to better the breed" we don't just mean making them better for show. We mean better/sweeter personalities, and stronger and healthier rabbits. And when you are constantly breeding only the healthiest, strongest, sweetest rabbits, that creates (or we hope it does) a ripple affect that helps many more rabbits than jsut the ones we breed.


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## Flashy (Feb 20, 2009)

Doesn't matter.


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## Mrs. PBJ (Feb 20, 2009)

I just wanted to add I have been dojng foster and rescue for two years mabye not so much of rabbits but other pets also.

I will say to this breeder real breeders of anything do a great job. when you get a 5 year old german sheperd withpapers and hip dispashaand all in the shelter most likly the product of bad breeeder not a good breeder hense the word BYB. Same with rabbits like storm for example he is a dwarf you can tell but he in no way meets the breed standard. Most likly a mix. 

If you stand behind what you breed I respect you completly. Its the people that dont thats causing the over population. My friend got a rabbit from a true breeder dont ask I raised pigs in high school she raised rabbits. 

this person told her if you dont want this rabbit call me I will come get it if this bunny has babys and youu dont want to deal with rehoming it I will come get it. Hense standing behind what you belive in. 

If you have a accidental breeding of anything rabbit dog cat what ever you can fix it befor a issue arises thats the owners breeder who ever choice its the owners or BYB that make the choice to let them have them that cause the problem. 

I worked for a vet that fixed a cat due in less then a week. She may haver had to put those babys down but those baby could have mde thousands and mom cant make anymore babys. I know we are talking about rabbits the point is still the same 



Breed resposible thats fine but BYB are the true problem


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## gentle giants (Feb 20, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> Doesn't matter.


What doesn't matter?


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