# Expertise is needed



## NDrAbBiTs58041 (Jul 21, 2013)

I was told that the doe that I'm getting
Was a Belgain. Well I looked at a web site
About different kinds of rabbits and needless
To say, I don't think the doe is a Belgain AT ALL. 
Can any one tell me what kind she is?


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## NDrAbBiTs58041 (Jul 21, 2013)

Yes, that is one of her kits that u see.


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## kmaben (Jul 21, 2013)

ouch how much does she weigh if you had to guess? And no not even close to a Belgian. Also if the person doesnt know what kind of rabbit she is what else might they be keeping from you?


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## NDrAbBiTs58041 (Jul 21, 2013)

Yeah don't know. I have the buck from
The same person and seems to be doing ok. 


She got the bun from a pet store. I know that's sad
So the store prob told her that she was a Belgain. They
Prob had no idea.


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## NDrAbBiTs58041 (Jul 21, 2013)

Idk prob 6-7 pounds maybe. That's a "way out there" guess
Though. She looks really big. She just had 8 kits though
So don't know if that has anything to do with it or if
She jut wasn't feed right. I need to get
Her so I know she would b in good hands and 
Get her to a healthy weight. Ect


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## NDrAbBiTs58041 (Jul 21, 2013)

Made me curious now. So what do u think
He buck is? I was told a dwarf.


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## kmaben (Jul 21, 2013)

He is a dutch for sure.


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## NDrAbBiTs58041 (Jul 21, 2013)

Thumps my buck. 2nd pic is a Dutch and what
About the my doe? Anyone know on her what she is?


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## NDrAbBiTs58041 (Jul 21, 2013)

Anyone? This is the link I found. 
https://www.arba.net/breeds.htm


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## woahlookitsme (Jul 21, 2013)

She is definitely not a Belgian hare. Do you have any other pictures of her? Also a weight would be helpful. The only thing I can tell about get is that her color is broken orange


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## woahlookitsme (Jul 21, 2013)

About her *


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## NDrAbBiTs58041 (Jul 21, 2013)

I new after I went to that
Site that she was NOT a Belgain.
Not even close. Didn't even look like
One. Keep in mind she was from a pet 
Store ( previous owners owners got her from) and I know how inexperience they
CAN be. I personally don't trust the people there.


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## NDrAbBiTs58041 (Jul 21, 2013)

If u look REALLY close u can see her eye. To
Me it looks slanted more then my Dutch. Obviously
There all different kinds and all are different.


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## NDrAbBiTs58041 (Jul 21, 2013)

What's ur guess what my doe is?
Same pic as my avatar but a bigger
Pic so it's easier to tell.


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## Zaiya (Jul 21, 2013)

Adorable? XD

Looks to be of a commercial body type.


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## NDrAbBiTs58041 (Jul 21, 2013)

Zaiya said:


> Adorable? XD
> 
> Looks to be of a commercial body type.



Thankx! What's that mean? A mix
Between to breeds?


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## bunnychild (Jul 21, 2013)

Maybe an English spot mix? Their markings are close to that. Ur buck is a really cute dutch


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## woahlookitsme (Jul 21, 2013)

Its really hard to see her actual body type in that picture too. I wont guess english spot. She looks much heavier than that. A weight would be pretty helpful to know how big she is.


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## woahlookitsme (Jul 21, 2013)

Here is a video I made for broken colored rabbits. Maybe you can see which one looks most like her.
http://youtu.be/u5GBu-6GfM4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5GBu-6GfM4


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## NorthernAutumn (Jul 21, 2013)

Moved to the Rabbitry - you will get more responses there.


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## hannaroo (Jul 21, 2013)

She She is not a Belgium and the buck is a Dutch. I would be very wearily of this breeders they obviously don't know what they are breeding and may lack knowledge in many other areas. Be sure your kit isn't taken away from its mother before 8 weeks and do lots of your own research to find out what your rabbits needs are. Unfortunately some breeders don't know much about rabbits and misinform New pet owners.
Here are some useful links links to help you gain reliable information
Www.rabbit.org
http://www.binkybunny.com/BUNNYINFO/tabid/53/Default.aspx
http://www.rabbitwelfare.co.uk/


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## NDrAbBiTs58041 (Jul 21, 2013)

Maybe a checkerd giant? Don't think
She has the color on/around her nose though.

I can ask the pervious owners( that's where she is
At now with her kits) for a pic of her face and a estimate
Of what they think she weights.


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## hannaroo (Jul 21, 2013)

I would just allow maximum space for accommodation to make sure whatever weight your bunny ends up its needs are met and allow for the cost of a giant rabbit although it is likely to be medium to large size if bred with a dutch


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## NDrAbBiTs58041 (Jul 21, 2013)

She's about 6 pounds roughly.


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## NDrAbBiTs58041 (Jul 21, 2013)

Not for sure on the weight. Guess from
6-10 pounds. Here's a pic of her face.


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## whitelop (Jul 21, 2013)

Could she be a New Zealand? 
They're pretty popular rabbits. But they come in a red/orange color right? Maybe she's a broken orange NZ? Or maybe a NZ crossed with something, since she is on the larger size? 
That would be my guess, but I'm not great with breeds!


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## RabbitGirl101 (Jul 21, 2013)

English Spot?


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## RabbitGirl101 (Jul 21, 2013)

This is an english spot. Look at ARBA for more opinions(it may vary on your country there is different names in different countries)


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## NDrAbBiTs58041 (Jul 21, 2013)

Yeah that's what she looks like in away.
There are other pics of her on the other pages.
I would say prob a English spot then? She has spots
Like that. Not as much on her sides like this one in the pic
But she does have the solid line of orange on her back
Like his one does with the solid black down the back.


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## RabbitGirl101 (Jul 21, 2013)

Would she look more like this one?






The one I posted before had heavier spotting down the side but it varies with each rabbit


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## missyscove (Jul 21, 2013)

I think you're relying too much on her coat color pattern when trying to ID her breed when her color actually occurs in many breeds of rabbits. You need to be looking more at her body shape. If you can take and post pictures where she's better posed once you have her, some of our members might be better able to guess what breed(s) she is.


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## Watermelons (Jul 21, 2013)

English spots are an arched breed. 
TONS of rabbits come in broken patterns, and English spots have very specific pattern. 
I really wish people would stop assuming every broken pattered rabbit is a English Spot or Checkered Giant.

Odds are your rabbit is mix. Could be a mix or 2 or a mix of many. It is often very tough to determine exactly what breed a mixed rabbit is due to how many varieties look so similar.


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## NDrAbBiTs58041 (Jul 21, 2013)

No she doesn't look like this one at all.
This one is much thiner and the stripe down
The back doesn't look like that either. The stripe on this one is thiner


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## NDrAbBiTs58041 (Jul 21, 2013)

Watermelons said:


> English spots are an arched breed.
> TONS of rabbits come in broken patterns, and English spots have very specific pattern.
> I really wish people would stop assuming every broken pattered rabbit is a English Spot or Checkered Giant.
> 
> Odds are your rabbit is mix. Could be a mix or 2 or a mix of many. It is often very tough to determine exactly what breed a mixed rabbit is due to how many varieties look so similar.



Please don't get upset. I'm asking what people
Think what kind she is. Please keep a open mind.


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## Watermelons (Jul 21, 2013)

If you would like better opinions, you will need to post photos of your rabbit properly posed and under proper lighting.

I will also ask you keep your querys to 1 topic. Please do not create a new topic for the same issue or question with the same rabbit.

And my comment was directed at those who have suggested your rabbit is an English spot. Sarah did an excellent job with an educational video to show people the broken rabbits out there. Its a shame such an amazing breed of rabbit gets its breed tossed around to every other spotted rabbit out there.


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## NDrAbBiTs58041 (Jul 21, 2013)

Watermelons said:


> If you would like better opinions, you will need to post photos of your rabbit properly posed and under proper lighting.
> 
> I will also ask you keep your querys to 1 topic. Please do not create a new topic for the same issue or question with the same rabbit.
> 
> And my comment was directed at those who have suggested your rabbit is an English spot. Sarah did an excellent job with an educational video to show people the broken rabbits out there. Its a shame such an amazing breed of rabbit gets its breed tossed around to every other spotted rabbit out there.



I get that. I wasn't getting responses from it.
Sorry if that's against ur rules. 

Yep


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## majorv (Jul 21, 2013)

It's just going to be a guess on our part. Your buck is definitely a Dutch, but the doe looks to me to be a combination of 2+ breeds. Once you have her home then take some better pictures and weigh her and we'll see. Right now, from what I see, no one breed stands out in her coloring or type.


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## RabbitGirl101 (Jul 21, 2013)

Watermelons said:


> English spots are an arched breed.
> TONS of rabbits come in broken patterns, and English spots have very specific pattern.
> I really wish people would stop assuming every broken pattered rabbit is a English Spot or Checkered Giant.
> 
> Odds are your rabbit is mix. Could be a mix or 2 or a mix of many. It is often very tough to determine exactly what breed a mixed rabbit is due to how many varieties look so similar.



Now the reason I am looking at her coat pattern is because of the specific pattern which is a personal trait of the English Spot. Yes I know the body has an important role in the ID of the breed, and yes this rabbit is most likely a mix, but like stated before sometimes in different breeds they have specific qualities to them that are just as important as the other features like the head, body type, fur type, and the coat pattern is also important, like in a Tan, Checkered Giant, English Spot, Dutch, ect. Yes Other breeds have patterns like the tan, and the spotting like and English Spot, but it is a good start to figuring out thee breed. 
I for sure wasn't assuming, just basing my opinion off several rabbit from rabbit shows I attend (breeder and shower here) and the rabbit seemed similar to the rabbits I have seen at shows. 

I know about broken patterns, I raise Holland Lops in many different colors, and broken is not a lacking color/pattern in my small herd. It is very common to mistake a rabbit for a different breed. I've seen a rescue mistake a Gold tipped Steel Netherland Dwarf for a Polish rabbit even though Polish only come in Black, Blue, Chocolate, BEW, REW, and broken in those varieties. Not every is lucky enough to have a Standard of Perfection in their reach 24/7 lol  Please keep an open mind to the suggestions. Thanks!


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## NDrAbBiTs58041 (Jul 21, 2013)

RabbitGirl101 said:


> Now the reason I am looking at her coat pattern is because of the specific pattern which is a personal trait of the English Spot. Yes I know the body has an important role in the ID of the breed, and yes this rabbit is most likely a mix, but like stated before sometimes in different breeds they have specific qualities to them that are just as important as the other features like the head, body type, fur type, and the coat pattern is also important, like in a Tan, Checkered Giant, English Spot, Dutch, ect. Yes Other breeds have patterns like the tan, and the spotting like and English Spot, but it is a good start to figuring out thee breed.
> I for sure wasn't assuming, just basing my opinion off several rabbit from rabbit shows I attend (breeder and shower here) and the rabbit seemed similar to the rabbits I have seen at shows.
> 
> I know about broken patterns, I raise Holland Lops in many different colors, and broken is not a lacking color/pattern in my small herd. It is very common to mistake a rabbit for a different breed. I've seen a rescue mistake a Gold tipped Steel Netherland Dwarf for a Polish rabbit even though Polish only come in Black, Blue, Chocolate, BEW, REW, and broken in those varieties. Not every is lucky enough to have a Standard of Perfection in their reach 24/7 lol  Please keep an open mind to the suggestions. Thanks!



That's what I said to to keep an open mind.
Thanks for posting those rabbits for suggestions.


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## ladysown (Jul 21, 2013)

the doe looks like a generic rabbit. Most likely a mixed breed of some sort. If she got it from a pet store could be anything.


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## Zaiya (Jul 21, 2013)

NDrAbBiTs58041 said:


> Thankx! What's that mean? A mix
> Between to breeds?



There are five different body types: commercial, compact, full-arch, semi-arch, and cylindrical. Full-arch, cylindrical and semi-arch aren't very common, with only one of a few breeds representing each type. The most common are compact (breeds such as Holland lop, Netherland dwarf, and more) and commercial (breeds such as New Zealand, Californian, and more).

On that ARBA website, for a good example of each body type, look at these breeds:

Commercial: New Zealand
Compact: Mini Lop
Semi-arch: American
Full-arch: English Spot
Cylindrical: Hymalayan

https://www.arba.net/breeds.htm


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## bunnychild (Jul 22, 2013)

The reason I think English Spot mix is because of the line down her spine. It isn't perfect, but she obviously isn't a pure breed.


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## woahlookitsme (Jul 22, 2013)

All broken rabbits will have some variance of a line down the spine. In the english spot this lines is supposed to go from the neck to the tip of the tail. English spots are a full arch rabbit (meaning they have thinner, longer bone and a more tucked up look showing a nice full arch in the profile with plenty of daylight underneath). They are a running breed which means they're disposition is sort of like tans. They are more active and some can have an attitude. Spots are to have a sweeping spot distribution with smaller spots starting above and sweeping like an S as they get bigger towards the rump. The English spot has a very specific pattern and markings. They have been bred since the early 1900's and there is little variation in their looks. I do not know what a spot mix would look like but I would not guess it as the first thing I see when there is a black and white broken rabbit in question. Like in the video I made there are 16 other breeds that have the same spine marking but they are not spots. To be an english spot or even an english spot mix they need to have more things than just a spine marking.


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## RabbitGirl101 (Jul 23, 2013)

woahlookitsme said:


> All broken rabbits will have some variance of a line down the spine. In the english spot this lines is supposed to go from the neck to the tip of the tail. English spots are a full arch rabbit (meaning they have thinner, longer bone and a more tucked up look showing a nice full arch in the profile with plenty of daylight underneath). They are a running breed which means they're disposition is sort of like tans. They are more active and some can have an attitude. Spots are to have a sweeping spot distribution with smaller spots starting above and sweeping like an S as they get bigger towards the rump. The English spot has a very specific pattern and markings. They have been bred since the early 1900's and there is little variation in their looks. I do not know what a spot mix would look like but I would not guess it as the first thing I see when there is a black and white broken rabbit in question. Like in the video I made there are 16 other breeds that have the same spine marking but they are not spots. To be an english spot or even an english spot mix they need to have more things than just a spine marking.



Like I stated before I know these things. However, it was just a start, or lead if you prefer to call it that. From this point you can grow and expand off of it. This rabbit(if a mix) wouldn't have a full arch she was probably bred to a commercial breed or compact breed. 
I watched your video and it is true those are all broken rabbit. This difference with this rabbit even though it was not a solid line. The line on the english spot, checkered giant, ect. Is a lot smaller, more narrow than other broken pattern spine markings. 

If you look at this picture of my Holland lop kit you can see the line down the spine. However it is not as straight, or narrow as it would be on a english spot. 






If you look at an earlier picture of the kit, you can see the line is even more identical to what an English spots would be. However keep in mind the line will grow. (kit on far left)





What I'm trying to say is that yes the markings do look similar to an English Spots however they still aren't the same, the line is too thick and the spotting isn't the same. 

The rabbit in this thread may not have prefect markings however the marking are very similar to the English Spots. The line down the back is very thin, narrow and only on the spine (The line however is broken, which I have seen purebred English Spots with broken lines, down the back. This is something that automatically make them a pet.) If it was from a pet store there is a chance is was the pet quality rabbit from a breeder. As to the body type like stated before this rabbit is most likely a mix, so the chance of the body being a full arch is very slim especially if the rabbits parent was bred to a commercial, or compact body type. 

So yes I understand the brokens do look like English Spots in their markings sometimes, however the English Spots are more defined in their markings. This is just my opinion though, and its based off of what I have seen with the Brokens compared to English Spot,ect.


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## woahlookitsme (Jul 23, 2013)

I understand how the rabbit looks similar but what I am trying to say also is that there are so many more breeds that have similar markings (Brokens produce a huge variance in the size and shape of their markings an example would be the litter you posted the picture of one has a smaller line down the back and the other has almost his whole back covered) that are not ES. ES are not common rabbits to see in pet stores and there are so many other breeds that people will use to create pet store bunnies but an ES is not going to be the first choice in MOST instances. 

What Im trying to make clear is that when looking at a broken colored rabbit an ES mix is not the first thing that should be recommended because there is so much more to an ES than just markings. There are many more popular pet breeds that come in the broken variety that would be a better choice for pure guessing.


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## RabbitGirl101 (Jul 23, 2013)

yes I understand. I was just giving my opinion no harm being done. The pictures of the litter in the one post are the same rabbit. One is when he was younger than the other. I was showing how when he was young he had very similar markings to an ES however, when he was older the line became to thick to be an ES. 

This rabbit could very well be an ES we weren't shown a body type on it to really give a good guess, however it could just as well be a broken red New Zealand. So I get what your saying, However I was showing in my pictures that It is very uncommon to get a thin line just covering the spine like it would be for the English Spot. In the litter I posted that rabbit had a thick line running down his spine. When I look at a rabbit for the breed ID contest I first look at color and markings, then the body type, then the fur, head type, size of ears, ect. I was simply making a suggestion as the only thing you could really see in the picture was the coloring and the shape of the markings.


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## woahlookitsme (Jul 23, 2013)

I agree a better picture would be needed to tell anything more than color and markings


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## NDrAbBiTs58041 (Jul 23, 2013)

woahlookitsme said:


> I agree a better picture would be needed to tell anything more than color and markings



Once I get her I can get better pics.


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## RabbitGirl101 (Jul 24, 2013)

NDrAbBiTs58041 said:


> Once I get her I can get better pics.


That would be great! It would really help with trying to find a breed that matches her more.


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## bunnychild (Jul 24, 2013)

woahlookitsme said:


> I understand how the rabbit looks similar but what I am trying to say also is that there are so many more breeds that have similar markings (Brokens produce a huge variance in the size and shape of their markings an example would be the litter you posted the picture of one has a smaller line down the back and the other has almost his whole back covered) that are not ES. ES are not common rabbits to see in pet stores and there are so many other breeds that people will use to create pet store bunnies but an ES is not going to be the first choice in MOST instances.
> 
> What Im trying to make clear is that when looking at a broken colored rabbit an ES mix is not the first thing that should be recommended because there is so much more to an ES than just markings. There are many more popular pet breeds that come in the broken variety that would be a better choice for pure guessing.



I understand what you are saying. I normally do not jump to the conclusion that a broken rabbit is an ES. I have raised broken varieties before. I just think that this rabbit might have some ES in her.


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## NDrAbBiTs58041 (Jul 29, 2013)

New pics added on the thread (stink bun) 
Someone on there asked what breed She
Was so to help with comments on that thread. 

If u want to see her she's on that thread. 
Thankx


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## NDrAbBiTs58041 (Jul 29, 2013)

Ooops *stinky bun*


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jul 29, 2013)

I didn't read every response to this thread, so some of my response may be repeated information. Bear with me!

The rabbit pictured is not an English Spot. Spots have a very clean, precise and specific pattern of spots, as well as a strip of color down the back called a herringbone. The rabbit pictured has a more random display of spots and does not have the herringbone marking. Spots are also a full arch breed. While the rabbit in the pictures is laying down, she still appears to have a much wider, "chunkier" build than a Spot would have. Even more, Spots rarely (if ever) show up in a pet store situation. They are almost exclusively found among breeders and exhibitors only, they are not a common pet breed.

The rabbit pictured appears to be a mixed breed. If I had to pull a wild guess, I would say she may be a Mini Rex or Standard Rex mix, simply because her head/ears give me the Rex vibe. But other than that, she doesn't have any features that stand out to me as one breed or another.

Also, I realize this isn't what you posted about. However, the lone kit pictured in the original photo is concerning to me. It appears to be less than two weeks old and doesn't seem to have its eyes open yet. It should still be confined to a warm, safe nest with its siblings - not scrambling around the cage where the doe could accidentally step on it, the kit could crawl up and over the side of the cage (trust me, it happens), or it could chill from being away from its siblings. The picture may be completely out of context. But based on the information you have provided us with, I would recommend seeking other breeders in your area for future purchases.


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## NDrAbBiTs58041 (Jul 29, 2013)

OakRidgeRabbits said:


> I didn't read every response to this thread, so some of my response may be repeated information. Bear with me!
> 
> The rabbit pictured is not an English Spot. Spots have a very clean, precise and specific pattern of spots, as well as a strip of color down the back called a herringbone. The rabbit pictured has a more random display of spots and does not have the herringbone marking. Spots are also a full arch breed. While the rabbit in the pictures is laying down, she still appears to have a much wider, "chunkier" build than a Spot would have. Even more, Spots rarely (if ever) show up in a pet store situation. They are almost exclusively found among breeders and exhibitors only, they are not a common pet breed.
> 
> ...



No, she wasn't a breeder. I have gathered from all the
Responses that she's a mix. That's fine. I was told she
Was a Belgian, well I know now that that's not at all what
She is. 

Think the people that I got her from we're just those
Type "oh a bunny, how cute. Lets get it" type and not
Knowing how to really care for them. Don't know, just
A guess and what I have experienced with them. 

I don't know anything really about the kits
Other then they went to a different home and 
I have the mom. That's all I know about the kits.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Aug 1, 2013)

Your buck is a dutch. The rabbit you were told is a Belgian is no where near it. They are a rare breed and can be hard to find and expensive.


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## Blaze_Amita (Aug 9, 2013)

From what I can see of your girl she looks like a lightly spotted broken red new Zealand.


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