# Lump under chin



## Chrisdoc

Just picked Bandy up tonight to groom him and have noticed he had quite a large lump under his chin. It's quite hard and when I touch it, he doesn't flinch or seem to be in pain. I can't believe I didn't see it before, with all that hair it's hidden. I would try and take a photo but I don't want to stress him trying to catch him. Anybody have any ideas ? I will get him to the vet tomorrow morning when they open. Must admit I am worried, my poor baby.


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## BlueMoods

That sounds like an abscess and, the vet will need to lance it and, most likely give antibiotics to prevent further infection and, remove what is there. Make sure the vet checks his teeth, that is the most likely cause of the abscess.


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## Chrisdoc

Have just been googling and reading about abcesses usually associated with tooth problems. Not good reading as it sounds as though it can be costly to treat and car recur quite frequently.


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## JBun

I don't want to worry you too much, but lumps under the chin often will be an abscess. Depending on the location it could also involve an infection of the teeth and/or jaw. Could also be due to an overgrown tooth root. So there's a possibility that xrays may be needed if it's anywhere near his jaw. It's also possible for their scent glands under there, to get infected as well. A cyst is possible as well. The vet may do a fine needle aspirate to determine if it is an abscess.

If it is an abscess, some vets will surgically remove them, which is usually the best option, but sometimes they are just lanced and drained. Then the wound needs to be cleaned out several times a day, and antibiotics given. 

Poor Bandy  Hopefully it's just a cyst and won't be too complicated to take care of. I'm glad you've at least found a good vet to take care of your buns there.


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## Chrisdoc

Jenny of course I'm worried, can't believe I didn't see it sooner. I could do without it now financially but that's life. I will take him in the morning and will let you know what the vet says. Just taken this of him and Snowy, it doesn't seem to bother him.


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## whitelop

Oh my goodness! I hope that its something sort of easy to remedy! 

Our buns need to get it together and stop falling apart on us! 

I'll keep Bandy in mind tonight and tomorrow. Do let us know what happens at the vets office. Poor Bandy!


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## Chrisdoc

Unfortunately I think it is much more complicated than Ellie's problem and costly but what can we do. He seems OK just tucking into his veggies so he hasn't lost his appetite. Now I know it's there I can see it clearly now although all that hair does camuflage it. I will let you know how he does and what the vet says. I might just take him and leave the other two at home or should I take them all or just Snowy who shares with Bandy ??


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## JBun

One thing that may be a good sign, is that he is still eating normally and isn't showing any signs of pain that way. Which hopefully means there won't be any tooth or jaw involvement, and may just be a superficial abscess(or may not be an abscess at all). And those typically won't be painful, as the infection is encapsulated in that one area and doesn't involve anything else.


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## JBun

It probably just depends on how well you think Bandy would do being at the vet and if you think having Snowy there would help him feel less stressed, and if you think separating would affect the bond at all. Sometimes it is a comfort for them to have another bun to snuggle up to if that bun isn't stressing too much.


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## Chrisdoc

Jenny I can always rely on you to make me feel better. He hasn't eaten any pellets yet but has happily tucked into his veggies and has just has a little piece of dried pineapple so is eating normally at the moment. He doesn't look as though he's in pain and he is snuggled with Snowy so I may take the two of them tomorrow and just leave Houdini at home. I just my baby is Ok and maybe it won't be a problem with his teeth. Methinks I won't sleep too well tonight


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## Nancy McClelland

ray:


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## PaGal

Oh no Chris. I'm so sorry to hear. I will say a prayer and will be checking in often for an update. I hope it is something simple and as easy to deal with as possible and not too costly.

I wish I could be there to sit and worry with you.


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## Chrisdoc

Thanks Denise, I am camped out on the sofa, see if I can stay there tonight if they don't keep me awake. I will update after I have spoken to the vet. So good to have everyone on here, it does make me feel as though I'm not on my own


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## whitelop

I woke up thinking about Bandy this morning. I hope that the vet trip went well! Update as soon as you can! I think we're all biting our nails and hoping that everything is alright.


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## Chrisdoc

Morgan, it's now 3.30pm and he hasn't been to the vets yet, I rang the morning but the vet isn't in today and the nurse said he'.ll be ok until tomoro. She did not ask me anything so how the,hell would she know, I am beyond annoyed and seriously thinking of ringing their first vet to see if he can see him this afternoon. Am not home yet but he was,eating this morning. I don't know what to do for the best


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## whitelop

At least hes eating! Thats always a great sign! 

I hope you get to the vet soon! Its always a pain when they're away when you need them.


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## Chrisdoc

I don´t know what to do for the best and although he´s OK, I worry that he might take a turn for the worse as the appointment is not until tomorrow at 12.30 which is nearly another 24 hours. I am so stressed and upset and then
I´ve just read on another thread that if it´s an abcessf they are caused by bacteria, they can be contagious so do I separate him from his little pal Snowy or do I leave them together. I am so confused and so worried. I just want someone to tell me what to do :bigtears:


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## JBun

Chris, you should be just fine waiting until tomorrow. If this does turn out to be an abscess, they are usually slow growing and encapsulated in one area, plus Bandy isn't showing any signs of pain or lack of appetite. So I don't think waiting one day should be a problem as long as there aren't any changes in the lump or with Bandy.

Though the bacteria itself can be contagious, it really isn't a problem for your other buns. Most rabbits already are carriers of the bacteria and are just unaffected by it. It's a bit like if we had an infected wound. We all usually have the bacteria naturally on our skin anyways, and even though the bacteria itself could affect others, it's just not likely. Plus if it is an abscess, it's still encapsulated at this point. Usually when they are talking about the bacteria being contagious, they are talking about when a rabbit has a URI and is sneezing. It really doesn't seem like something you need to worry about at all.

I know you are worried about Bandy. Just remember that it may not even be an abscess. It's still possible that it's a cyst. But even if it is, though abscesses can be serious and some difficult to treat, they actually are a pretty common thing for rabbits to get, and most are treated successfully and without any problems. In fact just recently another RO member had a similar problem. Her bun ended up having a facial abscess. One vet told her it could be dental related. She got a second opinion and found that it was just a superficial abscess probably due to a bite. The wound healed up just fine without any issues. It's good to be aware of the possibilities and what needs to be done, just so you can make sure your bun gets the proper treatment, but you also don't want to jump too far ahead and presume the worst when it may end up being something minor and easily resolved. Bandy is still acting normally and being his usual fluffy self, which are all good indicators and signs.


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## Chrisdoc

I am just so worried and terrified something terrible will happen overnight even though it is unlikely. I have been trying to ring the vet on her mobile but she is no answering si I have texted her. He does look fine but he's been grooming himself more than normal or so it seems but I keep giving him bits of veggies to make sure he's eating well. As he is not bothered by it, I am wondering if it is a cyst but I won't be settled until he's seen the vet tomorrow. Thanks for your wise words again Jenny. This is when I hate living alone, the buck stops here


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## Chrisdoc

Well I have spoken to the vet and not much to be happy about as she says it will probably be an abscess and that cysts do no exist in that area ie under the jaw. She also says that recovery is a long process but that xrays will be needed as well as other tests and antibiotics to start treatment. Thinking back I am now gutted I didn't take him when he had that episode a while ago where he stopped eating as he was fine on the Saturday and the nurse said that he probably didn't need to see the vet, I could kick myself as that could have been the start. Hindsight is terrible. So, I have an appointment tomorrow and goodness knows what. Don't know how I will pay for all this but that's another story. I will keep you posted.


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## PaGal

I would think Bandy will be fine until tomorrow. As long as he continues to act himself and still appears to be eating well and not in pain which it seems like. 

I understand how you feel as I went through similar when Thump stopped eating on the weekend and then I wound up being home alone all day nursing him. I kept coming here to update and mostly just so I didn't feel so alone while I panicked inside. You may be alone in your home but you really are not alone, you have us worrying right along with you. 

Did you explain to the nurse everything you had observed? If so and I would think you had being worried as I know you are then maybe that's why she said he'd be fine since he doesn't seem to be in pain and is eating well. If you feel the vet that is away is good and the best bunny vet you know of then don't worry so much about the nurse as you should get the best treatment you can for him and that would be the best vet you know of.

As far as grooming himself more maybe it just seems that way because you are extra worried and paying that much closer attention to him now or it could simply be that you are giving him food more often and he's just cleaning himself up after a nibble like they usually do. I would think that's another good sign. I would imagine if the lump is painful then licking would hurt and he would not want to so often.

I'm sure everyone else will be fine. I would think you would only need to worry about them if it was more of a widespread infection or there was a high chance of one of them cutting themselves or something where an infection could set in. I am really hoping it will turn out to be something simple and easy to treat and that in no time you'll look back and smile at how worried you were for nothing. 

We'll all be here worrying with you and will continue biting our nails waiting to hear.ray: I'll even rub Thumpers feet for you to bring you luck.


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## Chrisdoc

Well nearly bedtime, Bandy's had some dandelion and has just tuckrd into his veggies, cleaning himself again so maybe you're right Denise and he's getting the food off his face. I did try to pick him up earlier to have another look but he's too wriggly and not enjoying it and I was scared of hurting him so put him down. It does feel a lot bigger than it probably is and I'm still feeling beating myself up for not noticing it sooner. Anyway another night on the sofa and I will be glad when it's 12.30 tomorrow and we're at the vets. 

In the first one, you can just maybe see the lump under his chin. Second is him tucking in to his veggies the night before last and third ine is him and Snowy chilling out this afternoon.


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## PaGal

That first pic is a very nice one of him. he's so handsome and goodness all that fluff!

It seems strange that they couldn't get a cyst on their chin, thought that could happen anywhere in a body. 

I hope you can get at least a little rest tonight as I know being very tired can make everything seem that much harder.


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## Chrisdoc

He is a real ball of fluff but I love that little face. 

I thought it was strange with the cyst but she seems to know her stuff.

I will try and sleep tonight, he seems to have settled with Snowy.


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## Chrisdoc

well back from the vet and am a bit in shock mostly from the size of it and the cost of treatment. She shaved the atea and drained some of the pus, it smelt awful. She gave him an antibiotic injection and another appointment tomorrow morning. Cost was 43 euros today. Injections are 11.65, xrays 42, visits 28 (all euros). Hr'll probably need an injection a day or maybe 2. Had to leave him and go to work so will give,an update later. Here he is, couldn't get a really good pic.but you can see it there under his jaw.


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## PaGal

It does sound a bit simple to deal with. Hopefully he'll never have another. Any idea if it could be related to chinning things? I would think it would be possible to cut themselves as they don't seem to care much what it is, hard or sharp doesn't seem to matter.

The cost doesn't sound too bad but then again I have no idea anymore what the exchange rate is like or what a euro is worth.


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## whitelop

I'm glad he got to the vet today! And hopefully everything will go well tomorrow! 

It was $199 for Ellie's visit the other day. I know how you feel about the expense of the vet. Maybe they'll let you make payment installments? Because having to go every day would become very expensive very quickly. Maybe they could also teach you how to do anything at home? Like my vet sent me home with a fluid bag and needles, so I could give Ellie fluids myself. 

Let us know how it goes! 

PS. From what I've heard, rabbit pus is like the WORST pus out there. Its way different than other animal/person pus.


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## pani

Ah yes, vet fees. I paid $85 a few weeks ago just for a consultation, no treatment required - I don't even spend that on my own doctor appointments! 

I'm glad Bandy got in to see the vet. Sounds like he should be on the road to recovery in no time.


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## Chrisdoc

Denise fees in dollars, today nearly 60$, antibiotic jabs 16$, xrays 55.60$, visits 39$, think thats right as 1euro is 1.39$. Yes, costs can accumulate really quickly, daily injections in 1week 113$ and she mentioned that depending how he does, he may need 2 injections a day. But I am going to take each day as it comes and not worry. She said his will takeclots of patience. Got home about an hour and a half ago and he is in his little house. I was worried about him eating as she said I may need to feed him critical care but be had some dill and has gone back inside, he looks such a sorry little soul, it breaks my heart. Hope he ventures out a bit later.


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## Chrisdoc

Just wanted to make sure he wasn't off his food and nobody keeps him from his nommy nana. You can see here how big the abscess is, looks a bit unreal.


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## JBun

I'm glad you got him to the vet ok and that he's doing alright. Sorry it's an abscess 

I'm not sure how vets work there, but here when a rabbit needs daily treatment and injections, the vet will show the owner how to do everything at home. As long as you are comfortable doing it, that will definitely be much more cost effective. Also sometimes you have to be a bit insistent on what you would prefer to do.

So here, we can buy the antibiotic that you will most likely be using, at livestock supply, or the vet could give you a prescription to get from a pharmacy(much cheaper than buying from a vet). Usually the antibiotic that is best to use for abscesses is penicillin procaine/benzathine(bicillin). It's a longer acting penicillin so you only have to give injections once every 2-3 days instead of once or twice a day, which would be awfully stressful for your bun too. Bicillin is pretty cheap here, so I can't imagine it being expensive there. Here you can buy a 250 ml bottle for around $20.

You also have to clean out the abscess at least 2-4 times a day. The wound has to be kept open and the pus has to be cleaned out. I don't know if this is something the vet already went over or is going to go over with you.
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?A=503
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Skin_diseases/Bacterial/Abscess/skin_abscess.htm
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Skin_diseases/Bacterial/Absc_treat/abscess_treat.htm

I'm so sorry for you and Bandy. I'm glad though, that you caught it pretty early before it could get worse.


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## Chrisdoc

Jenny, she asked me if I could do it myself and I said I could have a go so she'll be showing me. It was a bit overwhelming today so I asked questions but I will have more for tomorrow. It is extremely difficult to buy anything like you do over there but I just want to get the first few days over. She took out 15ml of fluid today and told me that there is still about twice as much left in there so she doesn't know how much more she will be able to extract as there comes a point when the pus is like cottage cheese and too thick at which point she may decide to cut it open and I suppose then I'll need to clean it. Haven't thought about if I'll have to separate him and Snowy then. It's funny cos Bandy was in his little house when I got back and the other two kept going in to try and clean him, I do think they know something is wrong. I am just taking each day as it comes and hoping my big fluffy butt does well. I wish I had caught it much sooner but because of his long hair, it was so difficult to spot, I am really feeling guilty about that. Anyway he's out now and I just hope his appetite stays good as it will make things much easier. Sorry for these long posts but I still can't believe its there.


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## JBun

From how I understand it, because of how thick rabbit pus is, the only way to effectively drain it is to either surgically remove the entire abscess if possible, or to lance it and manually squeeze it out. Then this has to be done several times a day as the wound will try to close up and the pus will keep coming back.

As I see it, you did catch it earlier than most people would. Usually these type of things are caught when the rabbit either stops eating or the abscess bursts. Plus all that fur does make spotting this type of thing more difficult. I think you both will do just fine. It will take a bit of nursing, I'm sure much to Bandy's displeasure , but these things do clear up. Just in the last few months there have been a few rabbits here on RO, that have had facial abscesses that have cleared up without any issues. Before you know it, Bandy will be back to his normal fluffy self in no time


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## whitelop

Holy crap! I didn't understand how big the lump was, I thought it was something small. 
You can't blame yourself though, because pre-shave it just looks like his neck! All that fur, how are you to know whats really fur and whats not. I can imagine it would be really difficult. The important thing is, that you did find it! 

I really hope he continues to eat on his own. Force feeding it really difficult and they really don't like it. 

I hope everything goes well at the vet! I'm keeping him in my thoughts and being very positive about him!


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## Chrisdoc

Yes that is one big lump but he's just tucking into his salad again so I should be thankful he still has his appetite. He was scarfing down banana earlier as though there was no tomorrow lol. I hope the visit tomorrow is positive, day by day and little by little. She said that I have to be patient as he has a long way to go.


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## Chrisdoc

Jenny I'd missed yours. I think she is going to drain more away tomorrow but said that she may have to cut it as the pus becomes so thick it is difficult to drain. He is such a trooper and seeing him eating normally, it is difficult to believe he has a growth that size.


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## PaGal

That is big. You can really see it in the last of the pics. Poor guy! Give him an extra nose rub from me. It's great that he is still eating well. Just goes to show how good they are at hiding when something is wrong. If it was us we would have been crying like babies long before now.

Don't feel bad about not spotting it. With all that fluff and under the chin is not somewhere we tend to pet the buns. I do look at Thumpers whenever I can. Usually you can't see under there well just because they are so low to the ground and don't tend to crane their necks back to look up but periscope instead. With all that fluff it would be almost impossible to notice. 

OK, that is expensive. I thought earlier that you were saying he would need another shot or two, not one or two a day for a week plus all of the return visits. I know it would save you a lot of money if you could do it yourself at home but goodness I know I would have trouble with bringing myself to drain it. Giving an injection I could handle other than I'd probably shake and accidently give it to myself instead.


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## Chrisdoc

All depends how he responds but it will probably need a couple of weeks antibiotics at least. As I said, I can't think too far ahead so I will take each day as it comes and see how my big boy does. She said when she felt it that it's like a small mandarin orange. When it was covered in fluff, it looked a lot smaller. By the way, I was really impressed with her shaving skills, she has obviously done it quite a few times.


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## Azerane

How did I miss this?! So glad to know you're getting it treated though, and hopefully it responds well and disappears  Hang in there.


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## Chrisdoc

Due at the vets in a couple of hours. Will post after that


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## Chrisdoc

It went well, she drained another 15ml out of the abscess, she gave him metacam today as well as the antibiotic. He is such a good boy, Snowy was there again but is not really sure what is going on but he cuddles up to him on the way therevand back so I'm glad I take them both. He has to go back tomorrow for his antibiotic injection and the nurse will show me as I will have to do it on Sunday. On Monday the vet will make a decision whether to cut it open but it seems likely as deeper down it is too thick to drain. He is still eating, has been running about this afternoon and is now chilling out on his favourite chair under the table. Have bought lots of his favourite herbs for dinner tonight.


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## pani

Glad to hear Bandy seems to be doing well during his treatments. It's great that he has Snowy for cuddling to and from the vet; must cheer him up a lot.


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## whitelop

Glad everything went well. Glad he's still eating on his own too! Taking Snowy probably is a good comfort! 

Hopefully everything continues to go well!


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## Chrisdoc

Have just been watching some you tube videos but also reading about abscesses and treatment so will have loads more questions when I next see the vet. 

He's still under the table but he seems happy enough. I take Snowy cos I do think it really helps calm Bandy down. Just noticed Bandy is down and little Snowy has gone to groom him but he doesn't like him anyway near the abscess. 

My big fluff ball is being a real champ. Here'a pic from a bit earlier. He is always grooming.


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## Chrisdoc

Just taken this, I tell you if I didn't know it was there, you wouldn't know there was anything wrong with him


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## PaGal

He's so darn good lookin'! 

I'm glad to hear everything is going well and he doesn't seem to be too bothered by it all.


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## Chrisdoc

Denise so far it doesn't seem to be affecting his day to day or his eating and I really hope it will stay this way. Bit nervous about doing the jabs but has to be done. He is a cute little bugger with a sweet personality to match


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## Azerane

Aww, glad to hear that it's going well so far and he's still his usual happy self.


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## whitelop

I've been giving Ellie fluids for a few days now and its not that hard. I feel bad for poking her, but then she doesn't really react. So I imagine that you giving Bandy a jab will be the same! Its not that hard once you get over it! 

He is so handsome! I just want to squish my face into his fur!


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## Chrisdoc

If I have to do it, I don't have a problem as I'm a bit sqeamish with needles, I used to fall in a dead faint when I had jabs at school. I watched the vet the last few days and I will follow the nurse's instructions.

He has got loads of hait, that's why the lump was so hard to see. It is silky and soft as well, just gets everywhere


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## PaGal

Poor you! Well just give Bandy some good veggies or pellets to snack on and maybe he'll be too busy munching to even notice. Then reward yourself with a glass of wine or a beer or even a shot depending on how much you think you deserve.


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## Chrisdoc

I can now do his jabs,much easier than I thought. Did the one this morning and have another for tomorrow. He is still his old self and eating well. His little pal Snowy is being a real good buddy and looking after him. Here they are tucking in last night 

And here are the three of them relaxing afterwards.


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## Chrisdoc

Sorry still haven't figured out this photo thing on the app !!! Well anyway they are twice as cute


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## PaGal

Such a handsome trio! Glad to hear it's all still going fine. I prefer the bigger pics to the tiny thumnails.


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## Chrisdoc

Denise, I am so glad he is his normal self although I keep watching like a hawk as I am so worried he will change. He is happily sitting on the dining room chair in his favourite spot. 

I can´t seem to get the hang of how big the pictures come out, it´s a bit hit and miss for me but I find it much easier to post from my Kindle Fire as I don´t have to upload the photos to photobucket or anything like that. 

I am hoping we will have a quiet weekend and then on Monday, I am sure the vet will decide what we will do with the abscess as I don´t really think it will go down on it´s own. I am hoping the injection will be straightforward tomorrow, flying on your own is so difficult sometimes especially when my little fluff ball is depending on me. 

I should really go and write something on my blog. With all that´s been happening, I´ve abandoned it the last few days.


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## PaGal

I'm sure you are watching him very closely. I know that medicines can add to the worry even as they are meant to help. It's really nice too that everyone seems to be getting along well through it all.

I have no luck in changing the size of my pics either.

I'm sure he'll continue to remain calm as he has so far. I think most times we humans feel a shot more than animals because we know what is coming and tense up which causes our muscle to tense which makes it hurt more. 

I'm sure most people are aware of poor Bandy's situation.


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## Chrisdoc

Denise, I am watching him like a hawk, I couldn't go to sleep last night until I saw he had eaten some of his veggies, I suppose I worry most about him stopping eating. Just had breakfast so am going to wait an hour till about 11 to give him his jab. Cleaning day today for them so they'll be out all day, just looking over and seeing Snowy grooming him, he does love that big fluff ball


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## Chrisdoc

I can see he's grinding his teeth so the abscess is tooth related. I did notice he hasn't eaten many pellets in the last few days so I assume he's finding it difficult to chew them. So lots of herbs and veggies, he's eating the dried dandelion and he'll get some banana later on. The vet will be doing an xray this week so we'll know a lot more.


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## JBun

Well done for being able to give Bandy his shots! I'm sure it probably seemed a bit daunting at first, but gets easier as you do it. I don't know if you can ring up the vet today to ask about giving some metacam(unless you already are giving it)? If Bandy is having a hard time chewing his pellets, maybe offer him a dish of mushy soaked pellets. He may be able to eat it if it is soft. Hopefully the xrays will give you and the vet, a better idea of what is going on and if the tooth is involved. I feel bad for the little guy  But I'm glad Snowy is taking good care of him 

Something good someone on another thread mentioned, essentially *you are your buns advocate*. You'll just want to make sure your vet is going at this abscess aggressively enough and is using the right antibiotics to help fight it. Abscesses can be tricky to clear up, but there seems to be a much better success rate if they are gone after aggressively and the rabbit gets the correct treatment in the beginning.


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## Chrisdoc

Doesn't look as though he's in any pain as he's been resting and grooming behind the sofa. I think she has been asessing the size, removed quite a bit of the pus and wanted to see how it was reacting to the medication. From tomorrow, w will be starting the real tough stuff as I know she mentioned to the nurse that we would probably have to schedule for it to be opened this week. I do trust that she has everything under control so far and I know she has lots of experience with rabbits. I forgot to mention that she has the sweetest clinic bunny who was left by someone who could no longer look after her. She is so friendly you wouldn't believe. She comes over for pets and loves being stroked and cuddled. She also has an abscess bur on her side. I really look forward to seeing her now. She's called Rosita and here she is not a great picbut she's a cutie


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## Chrisdoc

Jenny, he is eating pellets just spotted him tucking into Houdinis, has had many but he is eating them. I have Metacam but it's what I used when he was poorly a few months ago and I understand that once it's opened, you can only keep it 14 days. He seemed a bit warm earlier but he's just been running about so he seems ok. The jab was a bit nerve wracking, I was so scared to do it wrong and he wasn't as still as I thought he would be but I managed to do it. They do pick up on our state so I must remember to be very calm the next time.


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## Chrisdoc

Well back from our visit today, more jabs, she drained again another 12ml and I have to give him another jab tonight. We will probably do the xray this week and also she may decide on cutting and draining depending how it goes at the beginning of this week. He has lost weight, about 60g so I will be free feeding him veggies and I may make a mush with his pellets tonight to see if he will eat them that way as he is nibbling a few but not very many. Back again tomorrow morning, it´s our little routine now :nod


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## PaGal

Glad to hear Bandy still seems fine. If you give him mushy pellets and he does not eat them on his own it might help if you could get a little into his mouth, just enough for him to get a taste and realize it is good. At least that is what I would do. We know how picky they can be at times especially trying something new.


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## whitelop

Ellie won't eat mushy pellets, even though she loves pellets. Its really weird. 
I hope you don't have to start force feeding him, its hard to do. But if you do, I've found that using a smaller syringe is easier on them. 

I'm glad he's mostly doing fine! Just keep pushing that hay and those greens and hopefully he'll continue to eat. I think about him all the time!


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## Chrisdoc

Haven't tried the pellets yet as I've just got home butI will do some later on. He had lots of basil when he got home from the vets and he is eating those well. I will have to stock up on herbs and green leaved salads. As the vet will be seeing him every day if I need to start feeding critical care she will tell me.


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## Chrisdoc

PS Morgan I think all these good thoughts and good vibes are doing him so much good, thank you to everyone


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## Chrisdoc

Another vet visit this morning and another antibiotic and metacam jabs. I have just given him another antibiotic jab just now before bed. He has to go back tomorrow for his xray to see exactly what the problem is but she did say today thst she id draining fluid but it is refilling so looks likely she will cut opren but we'll know more tomorrow. Have bought loads of stuff today for him to ear as he's off pellets, lots of herbs (basil,dill,coriander,parsley,rosemary plant) plus carrot tops, celery leaves, endives, watercress and green leaved salad. My fridge is full. I need to download pics of plants they can eat as I need to go foraging. What we do for our fluff balls


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## PaGal

I hope he starts to feel better soon. It's a good thing though that he can eat veggies and I'm sure he's enjoying being spoiled even more than usual.


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## whitelop

I agree, its good that hes still eating veggies! I agree also that he probably does like being spoiled with all his favorite things! 

I hope that everything goes well at the vets office tomorrow!


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## Chrisdoc

Back again from another vet visit and must admit a bit stressed out today. No xray but she did make a cut in the abscess to drain more and did it come out and stinky. She got out as much as she could and packed it with honey. Problem is I need to drain some more this afternoon and pack again which could be extremely difficult on my own but I will try. I may ask my friend who looks after the bunnies to see if he can help or ring another friend to see if he can come over. I have also had to separate Bandy from Snowy as the wound is open, hate doing it but no choice. Tried putting him with Houdini but they are chasing and nipping so I can't risk it when I go out. So a quick rearranging of the panels for now to accomodate the three separately. Have to go out for a few hours this afternoon so hope they will all be ok. Second pic is the two of them in the carrier.


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## whitelop

That last picture of them is just the sweetest! 

Sorry they have to be separated, but is it for the best! I hope that draining the abscess like this is more helpful. Poor little lad!


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## Chrisdoc

They are just best buddies. She says that is farbetter than having to operate, just more complicated for me. He doesn't seem too bad, eating veggies and nose bonking Snowy and Houdini through the bars.


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## PaGal

Bandy does seem to be a trooper. I hope you can get a friend to help as I'm sure trying to keep him still and doing what you have to could be quite difficult. Hopefully it will start to heal quicker with the draining and ya'll can put this behind you.


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## Chrisdoc

The neighbour who looks,after them is coming to help with the first one but not sure if will be,able to do the night one. Difficult to do on own as he us a wriggler. I do hope this moves it to get better quicker.


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## whitelop

Try wrapping him in a warm towel or blanket! Pop it in the dryer, if you can? I don't know if you have a dryer! 
When I was having to give Ellie fluids, I would wrap her up in a warm blanket on top of a warm towel and she would stay put, sort of melted into the blanket. Maybe if you can warm them up for Bandy, he'll want to stay in them.


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## Chrisdoc

Yes I do have a dryer. I was going to try and bunny burrito him. Sure I will figure something out


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## Chrisdoc

Well managed to drain and pack the wound once yesterday. Later he was just moving too much. Vet this morning and xray done. The abscess has affected the bone but not too much so there is hope it will clear with treatment. His bottom teeth look long but that will wait until the abscess is cleared. It is smaller and the packing with honey is helping. However I was asking about Penicilin G or Bicilin and we may start with those next week if there is a slow down in improvement. He is still eating, pooping and quite lively so am thankful for that. Back again tomorrow, am getting quite used to our daily visits.


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## PaGal

Keep visiting that mush and they might offer you a job. 

Is that real honey you are using ? I know honey is supposed to kill bacteria so it would make sense.


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## Chrisdoc

At least it would be interesting !! 

Yes. real honey, I'm using ecological honey, wish I could get some straight from the bees or manuka but it does seems to be doing some good. It's going in 3 or 4 times a day. Am finally getting the hang of it. I remember they were packing Gosling's wound with it. I am becoming quite the vet nurse with all this treatment and the jabs.


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## JBun

It sounds like things are going really well with the abscess. I'm glad it hasn't affected his jaw bone too much. I would think that now that it's been drained and you're keeping it cleaned out, that it should heal a lot better. Is the vet having you irrigate the wound with anything or are you just squeezing the puss out and filling with honey?

If you have the choice, I think bicillin is supposed to be more effective than just penicillin procaine, plus wouldn't need to be given everyday. I've read of other antibiotics working as well, like metronidazole, chloramphenicol, and azithromycin. Though I would be a bit nervous using azithromycin because I've read it can have nasty side affects. What antibiotic has the vet had him on so far?

That's great that Bandy's kept his eating up pretty good and is being such a good patient  I'm sure it's a relief, and one less thing to worry about. I'm sad that you had to separate him and Snowy. Do they seem to be doing ok not being together?


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## Chrisdoc

Jenny, wow that is so weird cos I was in there this morning, I was trying to look at the name of the antibiotic but when I checked on the shelf, the bottle wasn´t there, the nurse had filled up the needs and must have gone for a change so I don´t know just that it begins with Bexta........, I will definitely ask her tomorrow. She´s also been giving him metacam as well. I am now pretty sure that this all started when he was off his food that night and I am still beating myself up for not taking him for a check up on the Monday after but hindsight is a great thing and it is what it is now. 

She did say that we will probably change to bicilin next week but she can´t give the injections as she´s allergic to it. I was discussing a few things with her today and she is so good with him. She did say that there should be specialists for just rabbits as they are complicated to treat but in Spain, there are very few people, in comparison with say the UK or the USA who keep them as pets so you´re lucky to find someone like her who is quite a specialist. She also treats other exotics and people come from quite a distance to see her with their snakes, ferrets, tortoises, hamsters, parrots, there was even a woman this morning looking for worming tablets for her goat !! So I suppose, I am lucky that she is only down the road. 

We´re just draining if necessary and filling with honey which is clearing bacteria so we´ll see how it goes. I did remember Gosling and her absess that they were also treating with honey. 

They seem to be coping being apart but I know they miss each other and Snowy was at the door of his part of the enclosure earlier. I really miss them being able to groom each other and snuggle together. 

Before bedtime tonight, I will try to fill again and I also have to give him his antibiotic jab. It´s amazing how quickly you get used to doing it. He must be feeling alright, he´s just zoomed passed me to go behind the sofa. I am so glad that till now, I haven´t had to force feed him and that he seems to be enjoying his veggies. I got loads of free stuff this morning from my market stall where I buy the herbs. I bought dill, coriander and endives and they let me take as many leaves of romaine lettuce, cabbage, carrot tops and beetroot tops so I have loads of stuff. I am free feeding him as much as he wants to eat as he weighed 1.950 kilos last Thursday, he went down to 1.890 on Tuesday but he´s back up to 1.900 today so I am trying to keep his weight up. He´s not really been eating pellets for the last 4 or 5 days and he´s only picking at his hay. I´ve also been giving him dried dandelion which he loves and is eating well so hopefully that will keep him up on the fibre. 

I just hope that they don´t have to be apart for too long but I realise that it could be a little while before we can get back to normal. First week of bills has come to just under 180 Euros but that´s included the first main appointment plus the xray so it should be better for the next week as probably only injections. 

I wish now I had asked if I could take a video of some of the procedures as it has been very interesting to watch, I can´t believe that the small hole she made in the abscess is an exact fit for the end of the syringe I use to inject the honey, some skill there.


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## Chrisdoc

Well I asked which antibiotic she is using and it´s generic name is Cefalexina. Not much to report, same procedure each morning, antibiotic & metacam and honey in the abscess. I have managed to do it myself twice today and will do it once more before bed when I give him the antibiotic injection. I feel really bad for him but I know it´s the best for him right now so I´m trying to give him all his favourite things and a little treat after each time. He is such a sweet little boy and is so good, I think he´s actually getting used to it. Back again tomorrow so probably will continue this until the beginning of next week. She´ll then decide if we will change from antibiotic to penicilin. 

I was actually wondering if there´s anything else I can give him apart from hay and his veggies and greens as I know some people give a few oats and I even read the other day that people feed their bunnies shredded wheat and weetabix. Anybody fed their bunnies any of these things and how much if you do ????


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## PaGal

Bandy I'm sure is smart enough to know you are helping him and although you keep poking at him and jabbing him I'm sure relieving some of the pressure has probably made it feel a bit better as well.

Have you tried him on any different types of hay?


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## Chrisdoc

Difficult to get different types over here, very limited, but have a couple of different brands and he's liking one I bought with camomile. Just wondered if I could feed him some oats as I know they give them to disabled and underweight bunnies to keep up their weight. 

He is a good boy, I just hate him having to go through all this.


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## Chrisdoc

Well it was interesting this morning as mostly rabbits. The one in before me also has an abscess on the jaw but could hardly see it. I did ask the vet and she said that it's worse than Bandys as it's well into the bone. He was very subdued, I held him for a while and he never moved poor little soul. Bandy is stable. She made another incision today as the left side had started to.open which is good so we are now filling with honey in two places. I was worried as he's not eating very much and his poops are quite small although he seems to pooping regularly so she suggested feeding some critical care so he maintains gut motility. He has just eaten a bit of basil so I'll keep trying to tempt him with other things to keep him eating. 

Other bunny that was after me was a liitle lop, about three months. They had taken him/her, didn't know the sex, to another vet for vaccination. He noticed a small lump and suggested that they had it seen at my vets as she is the specialist in this area, how good is that to admit it. I hope the little one was Ok, will ask on Monday. I did a bit of training though as they didn't know you could litter train bunnies si I went through how to do it and I hope they do. 

By the way, they rehomed the three babies they had and now they've got another 5, real cities just love them at that age.


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## Chrisdoc

Just thought I'd post a pic of him relaxing.in the sun yesterday.


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## PaGal

I hope all of the buns recover. 

Good for you teaching the people about litter training. I'm on a facebook page for flemmish giants and I have suggested to people on there to come here to RO several times.

He's so fluffy and handsome.


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## jdrabbits

The oil opened it up and I kept draining it and rinsing w/hydrogen peroxide.
In the beginning the pus smelled sooo bad. It healed and he was very spry and never was bothered again


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## Chrisdoc

How big was the limp and what oil did you use ? Still with the honey, looks like it's clearing the pus which does smell awful but large abscesses can firm different compatments. I am now treating two. I have fed him some critical care this morning and he is nibbling some herbs, dandelion and a bit of hay but he has lost weight. I will be feeding him more critical care throughout the day. He is still running about and curious but I need to keep that gut moving as poops are still small. It's gonna be another long day


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## whitelop

Peroxide isn't good for rabbits. Just a warning. It does tissue damage. The better wound cleaner would he iodine, diluted so it looks like tea. 
Peroxide isn't recommended for many animals because its harsh on the skin. 

I'm glad that Bandy is doing well. Good job getting to the critical care early on! I hope its not a huge struggle to give it to him, as it was a huge struggle for little miss attitude! 

Still sending him good thoughts!


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## Chrisdoc

It is Morgan unfortunately so I will will have to do little and often. I just feel the poor thing must be stressed out with the injections, filling wound with honey and the feeding. My poor little mite looks such a mess, I need to ask the vet tomorrow if she can shave some of the fur under the chin as I can't cut it, too risky and it is covered in honey.


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## RWAF

I am treating an inoperable abscess on my rabbit's leg, right on the joint of his hock. He's 11 now so operating would be risky in any case, and where this is, the vet feels it would be impossible to work on without causing damage to his joint. He's doing really well.

As well as having daily antibiotics, it's also cleaned out twice daily with a solution of F10 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DR29JUA/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I attended a talk recently by one of our leading UK rabbit vets, Molly Varga She is the newest author of this book now that Frances Harcourt-Brown is set to retire http://www.amazon.com/dp/0702049794/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 Her talk was on the management of soft tissue abscesses and was to veterinary professionals at the RWAF's Veterinary Conference. She spoke about packing abscess cavities post-surgery and one of the preparations she mentioned for soaking the packing was F10. I know that leading UK vets use it in nebulisers too when rabbits have respiratory infections. It's made the world of difference to Nutmeg. Although there is still a small amount of pus production, it's greatly reduced and the wound is looking pink and healthy.

Please always take your rabbit to a rabbit savvy vet when there are lumps and bumps. Abscesses need urgent treatment, and are not easy to overcome. Often treatment is surgical, and this really is best where it's possible, to remove any infected tissue around the pus filled cavity. Any on the jaw are usually linked to a dental problem, often impacted tooth roots.

I hope your rabbit does really well


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## Chrisdoc

Thanks for the info. I took him as soon as I noticed. He is on antibiotics and pain medication and it has been drained several times and we are now filling with honey to assist in clearing the bacteria, the abscess has several compartments. Next week, depending how we are doing, she may change to Penicilin G. He is reasonably well considering although I have been feeding Critical care today as he is not eating as much. The vet is not keen on operating unless we have no other option. Sounds like your bun is doing Ok, that is a grand age.


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## pani

Sounds like you're doing a great job with Bandy. It's so hard to do things our buns don't enjoy, even though we know it's best for them.

Get well soon, Bandy! You look gorgeous sunbathing. ray:


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## Chrisdoc

It really is difficult when you have a sick bun both for them and for you. For them, having to handle so much and prodding, poking, force feeding and sticking needles in them and for us as we suffer for their discomfort and hope they don't hate us for it. I must admit it's been a stressful few days but I am prepared to do anything I need to for him. He is such a sweet bunny with a wonderful gentle personality. 

He is still laying out and relaxing so that does me feel better as it's a good sign. He has been eating a bit this afternoon, basil and some dandelion. 

Really appreciate everyone's support, it's good to have people who understand out there :highfive:


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## Chrisdoc

Well not great news at the vets this morning. The lump isn't going down so she open and clean out completely on Friday. Shechas started the course of penicilin today to see if there is any improvement but I don 't think we have a choice if we want a good recovery. Two friends have already asked if it's worth it and I can't believe they actually asked. I obviously am worried about the cost but I have to do this for my little champ. He is still eating and he's alert so I know he is still fighting. No vets appointment now until Thursday, I have pain killers for tomorrow and Wednesday. I have just fed him critical care as the last thing we need now is a slow tummy. I have to clean under and around the abscess tomorrow. The vet suggested and sponge and a very small amount of washing up liquid. I am worried about drying it as it iscdirectly under the abscess and I don't want him to catch cold....any suggestions ??


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## Chrisdoc

Bit of a panic just now as suddenly there was an awful smell and I realised it was the abscess which had started to drip. I had noticed that he had been shaking his paws a lot so it had been dripping down his neck and onto his feet. Had to carry him wrapped up in a towel while I filled up a bowl with warm water, got the kitchen roll and put some gloves on. The amount that came out was amazing, like free flow and it reeks not to mention he was dripping all over my clothes so I stink as well. Squeezed it gently until it stopped dripping, cleaned it up but have also had to clean him up as well. Just drying off in front of the heater now. Have not packed with honey again as not sure so will call the vet in the morning and will have to keep my eye on him for a few hours just in case. Good boy is sitting on my knee drying off. I will need to clean him but the poor thing was already stressed out enough from me squeezing his abscess. Wondering if that's the penicilin already starting to work.


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## JBun

That sounds like you had a bit of a mess today. Poor guy  But draining out sounds much better than staying in there. It would be nice if you are already starting to see benefits from switching antibiotics. I'm glad you're using the penicillin now. From all I've read, it seems to be one of the most effective antibiotics for jaw abscesses. Hopefully this is just the start, and you continue to see marked improvement each day. 

You may want to talk to your vet about using an antiseptic solution, like the F10 suggested if that is available to you, or something equivalent. I think it will be helpful in keeping the cavity as sterile as possible.

For drying, I've used a blow dryer on low heat and speed setting before, but this only will work if it doesn't freak him out at all. If you want to try it, turn it on from a bit away from him to see his reaction, then if he seems ok, gently turn it to blow a bit on him and see how he does. If he seems calm enough then you should be fine drying him with it. But just keep a close eye on his stress levels, as well as body temp. You don't want him getting too hot or too cold.

I know it's a bit shocking and disturbing when people say things like that. I wish they wouldn't. Don't be too hard on them though. Non pet people especially, I think have a hard time understanding the love we have for our animals. In a way our pets are like our babies. We love and care for them, and feel responsible for their well being, and not everyone gets that.


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## Chrisdoc

Yes,it was definitely messy and means I haven't had much sleep as worried it was gonna start to drip again. He has been shaking his front paws a lot an cleaning himself constantly, does freak me out. But I have checked and it seems to be dry. 

I washed as much as I could and he sat on my knee in front of the heater blowing warm air while it dried him. He was so good, I don't think he's ever sat still on me for that long ever, it was so nice to sit and stroke him. He still needs cleaning again, may do it later today as the fur under his chin is still dirty but is is so hard as it's directly under the abscess. 

Good news is he ate a whole big bowl of greens tonight so have just put down another.

I am hoping that is the penicilin working already ,it really was amazing the amount of pus that came out. I have also read quite a bit about penicilin and it seems to reach the infected area better so I will see what she says Thursday, she's away at a conference today and tomorrow. 

People sometimes just don't think, it is hard when treatment is costly but it isn't the biggest factor when they have a good chance of making a full recovery. I didn't take them on to give up at the first hurdle. I am hoping the three of them will be with me for a good few years to come.


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## Chrisdoc

Well glad to say that after continuing with the penicilin injections and the drainage and packing, the size of the abscess has shrunk considerably. Bandy is now eating normally, he's back on his pellets and has been the model patient and so good with all the handling and vets visits. I never thought we would get to this stage as just over a week ago, the abscess was the size of a golf ball but we have persevered and it seems to be working. There is still a long way to go but I can see that with the right treatment and lots of patience and constant care, surgery is not always the best option. Thanks to my fantastic vet for trying other options before surgery and having faith in my big fluffball


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## squidpop

I really feel for you and your bunny- you are doing such a great job looking after him. I bookmarked this post by a moderator on here named Randy a long time ago-- I'm posting it incase it might help you- he said he treated abscesses with two meds Pen G and Zithromax at the same time- maybe this could help your bunny? I've used Zithromax in 3 different rabbits and none had stomach upset and it cleared up their infections. Another thought I have after reading this thread is - getting some good medical grade manuka honey might be better - there really has been a lot of research on manuka as being more effective than other honeys. 

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/f27/abcesses-41860/ ra7751
_I have had perfect success in treating major abscesses using a combination of Pen G (commonly called Bicillin and available under a variety ofbrand names in the US....not available in all countries with theUK being one of them). This drug contains a combination Procaine and Benzathine. In those countries this combo isn't available, the Procaine aspect usually is available and that results in a different dosing protocol as this is a short lived drug and is purged from the body quickly. I use it in conjunction with Zithromax (again at one time a couple of years ago Zithromax was not available for vet use in the UK but I know it is being used now). This combo of drugs is capable of penetrating the encapsulation around the core....and the core is where the drugs need to be. And this drug combo is effective against nearly all the bacteria that can be found in the core of the abscess. I do not open an abscess.....not saying it is never appropriate since that would be determined by the location of the infecton and the involvement of surrounding tissues/bones._


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## Chrisdoc

Thanks for that, I had actually seen this on another thread so it was really interesting and the bicilin defintely is having a really major effect on the abscess and in reducing it. I have tried to get hold of manuka honey over here but it is so difficult. I am using ecological honey but I have seen an ecological honey with rosemary which the vet said may be better so I may get some of that. The last few days the pus has been really coming out of the abscess with help from the honey. I have taking him to the vets every day just to make sure things are still going well and this morning, she got loads of yukky stuff out of it and I then took him home and half an hour later,more came out so it seems that the medication is reaching the areas it wasn´t before and it is now greatly reduced. He has not had, at any point, any problems with stomach upsets or diarrohea, he has been eating well throughout although in the first few weeks of treatment, he wasn´t eating pellets so I was free feeding him greens and herbs and he hasn´t lost too much weight. He is now free eating pellets again and has put on a bit of weight since the end of last week. I know that we will probably have to continue with the injections for some time but I am just glad that surgery was not necessary and thank goodness my vet was savvy enough to go for this treatment.


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## squidpop

I so happy to hear your rabbit seems to be doing so much better. Your vet sounds really good. There are some manuka honeys on Amazon although kind of expensive for honey... but the reviews are really good http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001O0BL9E/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## Chrisdoc

I have seen it in the UK but I live in Spain so everything is so much harder to get hold of. I am trying to get hold of honey at the source. I know there are places in the Malaga area who produce their own, it's just finding it. The honey definitely helps so much and he is being such a champ putting up with it all.


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## squidpop

Sorry, didn't realize you were in Spain, I'm in New Zealand so I know what you mean about things being hard to get.


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## Chrisdoc

Sometimes you just have to be inventive although I did find some manuka honey today in a health shop at 35 euros a jar...ouch so I will stick to the one I have at the moment.


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## squidpop

35 euros sounds like double the price it is here - but it comes from here so..... totally off the subject but that's so cool that you live in Spain- my friend just went to Barcelona and now all she wants to do is save money so she can go back- she loved it.


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## Chrisdoc

It does come a long way. I haven't been to Barcelona since the early 90's, I live in the south near Malaga on the coast. It's very mild here, we've hardly had a winter and the temperature today is in the mid 20's, can't complain.


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## PaGal

Glad to hear he continues to improve and is back to eating pellets. Yay!


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## squidpop

How is Bandy doing? Has he recovered from his abscess yet?


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## Chrisdoc

Thanks for asking and sorry haven't posted but he is doing really well, the abscess has shrunk considerably but we are still doing vets and injections as it has not completely gone. The smaller capsule which was the size of a pea now seems to be softening and we have drained pus the last few days but it is very thick, comes out like when you squeeze a blackhead. I am happy to continue as long as needs be and we really don't know how long that will be. He is back now with the other two and they all seem much happier. I rearranged their xpen last Sunday and they are now a happy family again. They will all be going to the vets tomorrow for their myxi jabs so a little trip out for all. 

I will post every so often to update but he is an amazing little guy, he has been so good with all the treatment and handling, I sometimes hate having to catch him to prod and poke him again but he seems to know it needs to be done. I've loved seeing him the last few weeks doing his super binkies, never seen a bunny jump so high off the floor. My little fluffball is a happy bunny in spite of everything.

Here they are are together.


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## Chrisdoc

By the way, here is the before and the current of the abscess.


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## squidpop

That before and after picture is pretty amazing. I'm so glad to hear he is doing so well. Your bunnies must be so happy together.


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## whiskylollipop

Yay Bandy! I'm glad he's doing better now. That is some scary lump. Happy for you


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## pani

Wow, that's a massive improvement!


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## Chrisdoc

Thanks to all, it is a massive relief when treatment is effective, I must admit when I first saw the size of the lump, I was seriously worried. He has been a real champ from the start and put up with absolutely everything. He is so much better now being with his buddies, they did miss him when they were separated. I am hoping that we are now very near to the end of daily visits. The lump is nearly clear and no there is no new pus that we can see so that is good news. The vet has been great and visits have been so interesting as so many exotic pets go through there, coincided this morning with a very large parrot and an iguana.


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## Chrisdoc

Well not such good news this morning. THought it would be our last visit and on examining him, Johanna noticed he has another very small growth right under the jaw bone on the right hand side. It does feel soft so we will just have to see how it develops and take it from there. WE were both so gutted after the high this morning of saying it would be the last time...talk about tempting fate. One of the boys also has a UTI/Bladder infection. I mentioned last week that someone was peeing outside the box and it was a very bright orange colour and I thought it was Bandy. However, when I got back this morning from the vet, there was a small patch and I now have the feeling that it could be Houdini. I did notice last week and this week, he has been drinking a lot of water. I have now had to separate the three of them to see who it is and get a sufficiently good sample to have tests done. I am definitely on a downer today


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## JBun

Oh no! I'm sorry  Poor little guy. I was just feeling so happy he was doing so well and that all the boys were back together again. They look so content all snuggled up together.

These abscesses are just a pain to deal with. They seem to be so difficult to clear up in rabbits. Is your vet going to make any changes to Bandy's treatment? New antibiotic or anything? I've read of azithromycin being pretty effective for abscess treatment(if you can even get it there), though I have read of a few instances where it caused digestive problems. Or maybe just increasing the frequency of the bicillin injections? I've read of some accounts of the bicillin treatment regime, that when the injections were spaced too far apart, it wasn't proving effective enough against the bacteria. If you look up the study, I'm pretty sure it was mentioned in there, or if not I can try and find where I read it at.

I'm glad that Bandy is at least still doing well otherwise. And whoever ends up having the UTI shouldn't be too much of an issue. UTI's are pretty easy to deal with and treat. Just a round of antibiotics.

Tell these boys of yours they need to get better and let mummy have a chance to relax and not worry about them  Rabbits! ullhair:


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## Chrisdoc

Thanks Jenny. We didn't decide anything today, Johanna will reassess on Monday when we go back. I am so hoping it's just a capsule from the existing one and will open on its own. I think we were both in shock so we will have to wait and see. I did mention zithromax, think that's the one that they use with the bicilin. But she said they only have it orally here so she wouldn't want to use it. I have separated them and am patiently waiting for them to pee so I can see who it is. As usual, none of them are co-operating. Wish I could explain to them that the quicker they do it, the quicker they are back together


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## JBun

When I've read about Zithromax being used, it has been orally. Probably why there have been cases of digestive upset. I guess it's something you can keep in mind if another antibiotic is needed at a later time.

One trick I've used when worried about peeing issues, is clean out their litter trays and line with newspaper(or nothing if trying to collect a sample), then you can get an idea of what the pee is looking like, for color and if sludgy at all.


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## Chrisdoc

Have got them separated. I now have a feeling it is Snowy so I've removed the litter trays and they are pooping in the corner where it was but no pees yet. Hope they do soon as once I know who it is I can put them together again. 

I think she mentioned it can be really bad on their digestive system which is why she doesn't want to use it.


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## Chrisdoc

Just an update on the pee collection. I am sure that Bandy has the infection but collecting sufficient pee is so difficult, there is never enough. I am hoping that tonight I will get lucky. Having bunnies is certainly challenging lol.


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## whiskylollipop

Feeding lots of wet veggies helps. Now that the buns are temporarily pellet-free, I've been feeding lots of veg and yesterday Merlin peed on my bed 3 times in 10mins. I bet he at least half did it on purpose...but he had a lot of pee!


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## Chrisdoc

They get a,small amount of pellets and veggies twice a day. The colour of the pee seems to be better so not sure if it was,caused by medication.


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## thresp

My buns used to get orangey-red pee and of course I freaked out at first, until I found out it was caused by pigment in food. Here's an article you might be interested in:

http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-1/red-urine.html


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## pani

My bunnies' pee varies from very pale yellow to almost bright red!


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## ChocoClover

Thanks for showing that article. I saw red pee in my bunnies' litter pans and I knew red pee was ok, but this just made me feel better about it.


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## Chrisdoc

Just an update on Bandy and the new abscess. It has grown a small amount but the vet is not worried at the moment and can´t tough it as it hasn´t come far enought to the surface. We are continuing with the bicilin injections but she will probably change them early next week just in case he is becoming resistant to this particular medication. He is still his old self, eating normally and has even put some weight on over the last few weeks.


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## squidpop

I just read the updates on Bandy and am sorry to hear he needs more treatments. If it helps my I have two vets that have prescribed antibiotics to my rabbits. One has prescribed azithromycin to 3 different rabbits that I own and none of them got upset stomachs from it. My other vet prefers Convenia and has prescribed it 4 of my rabbits and none of them had stomach upset. I feed a lot of hay and all of them were eating well at the time so maybe thats why they didn't get sick from their antibiotics.


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## Chrisdoc

He is doing really well although the second abscess has grown but it´s under control. He´s back on his first antibiotic and is doing really well, eating as normal and no digestive problems. She changed from the bicilin as it looked as thought the abscess was becoming resistant to it. She was happy last week as it´s changing shape and getting softer so this week, we may be able to make an incision to start draining and my sister is bringing manuka honey over next week so I´m really hoping it is as good as everyone says. I am back down there tomorrow for follow up, last visit was on Friday and he´s been on antibiotics every 12 hours for the last 3 days. I will post again tomorrow with the outcome of the visit.


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## whiskylollipop

ray: I hope it goes away completely this time!


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## Chrisdoc

Good visit today and he's put on weight again. The abscess hasn't grown . Johanna syringed the abscess today to relieve pressure and to create a small opening. He is still on antibiotics every 12 hours, I am becoming an expert with needles. Just have to keep an eye on the abscess and next visit Friday.


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## Chrisdoc

Been off for a few weeks as nothing much was changing but yesterday she decided to lance it again and rinse out. Lots of pus came out but by today it had closed again so she made an incision, rinsed out and has inserted an antibiotic bead. So interesting today as he nurse was not in so I got to hold Bandy for the incision and treatment so could see first hand what was happening. I imagined the beads to be bigger or made of gel and they looked like grains of rice. Had a job getting it in but we did it and she has stapled it and it should react over 8 days. He is the best bunny ever for treatment. He hardly flinched during the treatment and has been great since then. He is stretched out so looks comfortable. He had a metacam jab and I have antibiotics for him every twelve hours and metacam in case he´s feeling uncomfortable. The abscess had not produced any further pus since yesterday and was considerable smaller after draining which she considered a good situation for putting in the antibiotic bead. I found it all fascinating, just wish I could have videoed it for you all. I really do like my vet, she is fantastic with Bandy, has a gut feeling for most things and is a lovely person on top of that. A bonus on leaving as there were two more owners with bunnies and I was able to sing her praises although they also said she is just great with all the bunnies. We will wait and see how he does. Three months of treatment on Friday but we are hanging in there, i knew it would be long haul but we will beat this. Have had to separate them again which is the only down side but I´m sure it won´t be for too long.


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## pani

I'm glad to hear Bandy is dealing with his treatments well.


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## Chrisdoc

I never thought any rabbit would be so laid back about it. He stayed so still while she was opening the incision and placing the bead under the skin, she says he is the best bunny patient she has had


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## JBun

These abscesses are such long haul things, but you both are hanging in there and handling it really well. Bandy sounds like the model patient  It will be interesting to see what the results are with the antibiotic bead.

I'm really glad you have a vet that you feel good about treating your buns. That's always a relief not to have that to worry about too.


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## Azerane

Come on Bandy, we believe in you!!!  Hope it continues to progress well, it's fantastic that he's taking it all in his stride


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## squidpop

I find it all really fascinating too, thanks for the update. Nice to hear Bandy is good with his treatment, hope antibiotic bead does the trick ray:


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## PaGal

I hope for both your sakes that this will do the trick!


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## Chrisdoc

Day 2 and he is full of beans. Eating well and seems to be feeling pretty good. Gave him another dose of Metacam this morning and back to the vet tomorrow for more medication. 
Jen you're right, they are long haul, very annoying, ever changing but treatable. I do believe he will beat this but it does take time and a heck of a lot of patience from all. 

My vet Johanna is great with him and I have every faith in her and what she is doing. I was very lucky to find her and so close to home, the surgery is less than a mile from my house. 

I will post updates on how this new treatment is working.


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## Chrisdoc

He is doing really well and the abscess has shrunk. Fingers crossed that this time he will beat it :thumbup:


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## Azerane

Yay! Go Bandy!


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## Chrisdoc

Thanks Becs, he is a model patient :yes:

I am posting what I posted on another thread for another bun with an abscess. Been to vets today and she was pleased with the results of the antibiotic bead which worked great. She thinks that it also affected the secondary abscess and so is hopeful that it will come to the surface and we can treat in the same way. She is trying to avoid anaesthetic at all costs. Here´s hoping, I have every faith in her and him and God if it comes to that. My big bun really does deserve a rest from all these injections, he is beginning to look like a pin cushion but taking it all in his stride like the champ he is :inlove:

Bandy has been treated with both bicilin and antibiotics. Bicilin (every 72 hours)really helped and the abscess has shrunk so we were ready to stop injections and see what happened. Unfortunately, another abcess appeared and we changed to antibiotics (twice a day) and it was under control. Last week she made an incision and planted an antibiotic bead and stapled the wound. A week later it has nearly disappeared but the secondary capsule is still there but has changed shape and has a softer area. We are continuing with injections for a further week to see if it comes right to the surface so he can open and plant a bed. Abscesses are a real pain as difficult to clear completey but some do go away. You do need loads of patience and a great vet to think for you as sometimes treatment has to be adapted to prevent resistance of the medication to the bacteria. I take every day as it comes and hope for the best.


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## squidpop

I'm was just wondering how Bandy is doing now?


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## JBun

Yes, how is our little fluff monster 

How are you and the boys doing?


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## Chrisdoc

Jen have just posted on my page...everything fine, abscess still with us but we haven't lost the war yet


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## MrB

My little dwarf had a lump under his chin recently

We took him to a vet that we knew, knew something about rabbits (sadly, a lot in Australia don't, probably because of Australia's stupid hatred for the rabbit) but sadly, the person who was training in rabbits / reptiles had recently been pouched by one of the universities :-(

They did however direct us to one vet here that is a rabbit specialist (they trained the pouched vet we wanted to see in our local area)

The lump had got fairly large - like the OP of this thread, I don't know how I didn't see it before - he is regularly held (much to his dislike)

Anyhow, x-rays were taken because our little fellow had broken two top teeth as well, I suspect he had been fighting and run into something out in his outside enclosure where we release them when possible for a day of outside frolicking! He being the smallest has been very aggressive towards the largest of the rabbits, who has a wonderful nature and pretty much ignores him but will at times chase him away. We now have 3 rabbits (all male) who are released together but thankfully have decided chasing one another to mount one another is about as aggressive as they can be bothered to be now. Even our little aggressive drawf just tries to play mount-fog (take on leap-frog) with the largest mini-rex whom he used to nip and fight with. After a session of this they all lay down next to each other to cool off
If ever I thought they were aggressive to the point of harm, I'd separate them but they seem to have learnt to just get along fairly well instead. It was actually the introduction of the third rabbit that made all the difference, he just skits away and has taught the dwarf aggressive rabbit to run and/or attempt to mount each other instead of just bite back immediately. It's taken a long time for him to learn a new response, when we got him, he was caged with two other rabbits that continually picked on him as well as a guinea pig who used to nip him - poor little guy! 

Anyhow, back to the main story

He had two broken top teeth but it appears they were a result of an impact injury, not bad teeth issues

The bottom teeth were infected but x-rays showed that it had not got to the bone yet

$600 in vet bills and arms fill of medicines, we started our journey home again

The vet didn't want to touch the abyss as he said it was well walled off for now and would probably resolve itself. He did however want us to give our rabbit an injection of antibiotics each day as well as a pain killer as he said the poor little fella's mouth would be quite painful. The vet kept calling us each week to see how our bunny was going. They only wanted to operate on him and remove teeth if the infect couldn't be stopped from going to the bone

So for the next month I injected my little bunny every day :-( They are so pain tolerant it's amazing but I found myself apologizing to him each time I had to capture him and inject him

I then noticed that the lump went down and thought everything was ok but then it expanded in size, so I called up the vet fully expecting to have to bring my bunny in for an operation

His main concern was if the rabbit was still eating and what was his activity like. Our dwarf rabbit is a little guts but he's not overweight at all, he's just highly strung and always on the move

The vet said the lump can often grown and shrink and not to be surprised if one day I notice it was wet around it, where it had leaked or even burst!

Then about a week later, it burst! I picked him up in the morning and noticed a crusty white substance on his underchin. That's when I noticed the small slit in the lump (where the fur had actually fallen off). I gave it a gentle squeeze and the white pus oozed out - very gross looking. I did this very gently and over time until nothing more came out. I repeated this later on in the day and again the next morning but the last time, nothing at all came out. I was still giving him his daily antibiotic injection

The lump never grew back and there is no telling now where the lump was because the fur has grown back . The only telltale sign is the skin is slightly loose in that area, having been stretched to accommodate the lump at its full size

I closely monitor his teeth and try and give him only hay and some pellets as a treat

I really thought the vet was ignoring the lump situation but it turns out he was 100% correct and he's pretty much more trained than most vets here in Australia when it comes to rabbits

For those in Australia wanting a good rabbit vet

Sydney: http://www.davidvella.com.au/index.html
Melbourne: (I have not used them) http://www.melbournerabbitclinic.com/wordpress/

If your wanting to set up a business in Australia around rabbits, look into rabbit accommodation / housing, because the situation here is woeful. If can also solve the rabbit insurance issue for us as well, it's simply not offered :-(


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## UPguy

So sorry to hear about your dear bunny. It brings tears to my eyes. Yes, bunnies have to be some of the bravest, least complaining, loving creatures on this planet. I mean that!
Well, try to work with it. We had it lanced probably five-six times in six months. We would get our hopes up (no lump for about two weeks and then BOOM, it would fill up). The "stuff" was like white toothpaste. Paddy did not seem to be too uncomfortable as you mentioned your rabbit, but it did slowly wear him down, our little fighter. He started not eating, and then after a six month fight, he ate little enough to go into stasis (?) We gave him intervenous for about a week, but at the end, the needles to "feed" him we could tell bothered him. Again, bunnies are so courageous, but it tore us up inside. We decided to let him go. We did NOT euthanize him, but let him go, and he at least drank from our hand up until next-to-last day. In his last five minutes, he bravely jumped into my lap...said "good-bye," jumped down and slowly hopped across the room to my wife and jumped into her lap and died. We have had several types of pets, but have never been touched by the love and dedication Paddy Boy showed to us. Been eight months- miss him a lot.
Best wishes.


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