# I need your help! Lost almost all my rabbitry.



## Firewing124 (Jul 26, 2016)

Hi all! I started my rabbitry about a year ago so im still new to a few things. I know summer in AZ can be brutal, but most of these bunnies were "made" to endure heat and most had survived az summers for years now. (of course with the support of shade, tiles, frozen water, dirt pail and the misting system) 
I had around 4 does and their litters in a 90 sqft colony over a patio I made for them, the bucks caged nearby. we had around 30 kits, so with things heating up(late april) I somewhat expected I would loose a few(although I tried my best to stop it). They are on mountain sunrise pellets, a mix of their timothy pellets and the timothy & alfalfa pellets. unlimited pellets for the kits and does and the bucks got about 1/2 cup twice daily. every rabbit had 24/7 access to a mix of Bermuda and timothy hay, and the nursing does/kits got about 1/2 cups of calf manna to share for the entire day.fresh water always from both bottles and bowls. The fly issue is kept down with fly traps without poisons, and the cage was swept out when needed (which was almost always at least once a day).
Slowly over the course of the summer, I had kits dying. at least one a day until the only ones left where the grow outs from earlier that year. All the kits had no signs of distress and everything looked normal inside. Dead rabbits where removed as soon as I saw them. This kept happening until about 2 weeks ago when I had only 2 kits left. one was really close to death, showing signs of head tilt. he passed away in almost a seizure? The other one was kept in a quiet room with water and hay. (was already weaned) and soon started having seizures and floppy-ness. He passed away not many hours after showing signs. 
After about 3 days my doe Bailey wasn't doing well. She wouldn't run up to eat like she did that morning. she was laying on the ground trying to stand up. She seemed thin and no stomach movement, so I immediately thought of GI stasis. so right away I got the baby drops and baby food (not crit care because I wanted to make sure she was hydrated for things to start moving.) She would not take any of it to the point I thought she was going to choke on it so I stopped. laid her down to stay comfy, as at this point she couldnt stand and didnt respond to any sort of touch really, with what seemed like seizures in between. I put her down because I knew she wouldn't fair well. after the autopsy it was confirmed to be GI with lots of gas bubbles, smelled horrible. 
at that point I thought everything was just bad luck with keeping kits alive in the summer and GI stasis freak problem. The rest of the rabbits where fine and eating normally. No abnormal poops and a healthy amount if it. fast forward to around 3 days ago. Everyone seemed too loose weight overnight, but with still a healthy eating. I start everyone on gas drops and supplemented with critical care and veggie baby food. everyone's weights were going up for a little bit and I was happy. Poop still normal, no signs of worms in waste and everything was getting better. But it started happening with them like the kits. I was waking up to several dead a day. All had normal looking guts and no signs of heat stroke. Did a really deep clean and got out all the emergency cages. Still death. Now we are down to 3 rabbits (one being my indoor rabbit). My two outdoor are only the bucks who where caged. 
I wanted to blame the food but no mold and the inside rabbit and guinea pigs show no signs. they ate all the same veggies too. all the food is in closing containers and is very fresh. the only signs ive been getting are weight loss and those close to dying being very week and having seizures. another breeder and I are thinking something similar to head down. if anything Im thinking I need to get the waste or food tested. I would love to know who to contact for this or if anyone has a suggestion. 

As for vet, at the rate of passing I didn't think to contact one to help in time and not to mention loosing my job after getting them. So at this point i'm looking for someone to point me in the right direction for testing waste or food or someone who had a similar problem in their rabbitry. If everyone ends up passing I will bleach everything and wait to build back up and maybe invest in just cages. if it adds to anything, I do have chickens in the yard but they do not interact.


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## JBun (Jul 26, 2016)

Seizures and listlessness are common symptoms of heat stroke. Heat stress can also lead to GI symptoms occurring as any stress can affect a rabbits digestive system by causing an imbalance of harmful bacteria to occur. So first off you need to eliminate the probability of heat stroke causing the deaths. Your remaining rabbits *need* to be kept in an air conditioned environment permanently. The outside temps where you live are just too hot for any rabbit to survive. If you cannot keep them in an air conditioned environment, until you can I would suggest that keeping rabbits at this time is not the best thing and that your remaining outdoor rabbits be found a home where they can be kept indoors. 

Once you have solved the problem of too hot of an environment and heat stroke, and you are still having deaths and they seem to be due to digestive illness, you can get fecal samples tested by a vet for parasites. To have it tested for bacteria you would need a culture done. If you are concerned the problems are due to bad feed, to have feed tested usually that can be done by your state university's lab. They can usually do necropsy's as well. Usually a state lab won't charge much, but you would need to check to make sure of costs. Determining what exactly is going on depends a lot on the exact symptoms your rabbits are showing, but first you have to eliminate heat stroke as the cause. 

You also have to keep in mind that even if you do bring your remaining rabbits into an air conditioned environment, that if they previously had heat stroke and recovered, there can still be permanent damage done, which could eventually lead to their deaths. So even if heat doesn't initially appear to the the cause of death, it still can be if they had heat stroke any time previously. Heat stroke, if it doesn't initially prove fatal, can cause permanent neurological damage and renal failure(not to mention that it can make bucks sterile), which is why it is so essential to prevent it in the first place. I'm providing this link just so you can see the severity of symptoms that heat stroke can lead to(caution: the treatment suggested is intended for vets and not the lay person).
http://wildpro.twycrosszoo.org/S/00dis/PhysicalTraumatic/sunstroke.htm


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## Preitler (Jul 26, 2016)

Hi, read this, and see if it matches your situation:

https://barbibrownsbunnies.com/wryneck/


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## Blue eyes (Jul 26, 2016)

Firewing124 said:


> Hi all! I started my rabbitry about a year ago so im still new to a few things. I know summer in AZ can be brutal, but most of these bunnies were "made" to endure heat and most had survived az summers for years now. (of course with the support of shade, tiles, frozen water, dirt pail and the misting system)
> .





JBun said:


> The outside temps where you live are just too hot for any rabbit to survive. If you cannot keep them in an air conditioned environment, until you can I would suggest that keeping rabbits at this time is not the best thing and that your remaining outdoor rabbits be found a home where they can be kept indoors.



I too live in AZ and can attest that no domestic bunnies are "made" to endure such heat. Our summers are consistently in triple digits. (Temps of just 85F are hot enough to cause heatstroke.) 

Air conditioning is essential for good health of our rabbits here. Misting, frozen bottles, etc., work for temporary relief if the temp creeps above 90 for several days. But the sustained heat (well above 100F) that we get for months on end prevents a rabbit from thriving (as opposed to just surviving) outdoors. 

If you cannot keep them in your house, then you may want to consider investing in an air-conditioned outbuilding.


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## majorv (Jul 26, 2016)

I can only guess at what happened but I do know that heat can stress kits to the point of death, and I don't mean due to heatstroke. How hot did the temps get in the area they were in? Stress plays havoc on the digestive system, especially in youngsters.
I also know that it's not a good idea to feed calf manna in the hot summer...the high protein content will cause the rabbits to get hotter after they eat it. I only give a small amount to nursing does for the first couple weeks to help with milk production and then stop. I try not to have does nursing past May.

Are the rabbits on or around a wood surface? If so, you could have something toxic...bacteria or other, in the wood. We had a friend with a wood hutch who kept losing her rabbits. She thought she cleaned it well so we gave her a young rabbit. It ended up dying in that hutch...most probably because of whatever was in the wood. The rabbit was healthy when we gave it to her.


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## Firewing124 (Jul 26, 2016)

Several of the rabbits are from another breeder who has them outside all year in a similar colony style. She lost few to none from heat and the rabbits I have spent their entire lives outdoors. With the fans, water bottles ect I am going above and beyond for them. I haven't taken the temperature inside the colony but I feel comfortable even in the triple digits with them. Several methods of using fans and ice bottles make almost a a/c and the sides are currently covered with a tarp to trap a bit of the cold air in, so I hope that eliminates this as a issue for them.


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## Firewing124 (Jul 26, 2016)

majorv said:


> I can only guess at what happened but I do know that heat can stress kits to the point of death, and I don't mean due to heatstroke. How hot did the temps get in the area they were in? Stress plays havoc on the digestive system, especially in youngsters.
> I also know that it's not a good idea to feed calf manna in the hot summer...the high protein content will cause the rabbits to get hotter after they eat it. I only give a small amount to nursing does for the first couple weeks to help with milk production and then stop. I try not to have does nursing past May.
> 
> Are the rabbits on or around a wood surface? If so, you could have something toxic...bacteria or other, in the wood. We had a friend with a wood hutch who kept losing her rabbits. She thought she cleaned it well so we gave her a young rabbit. It ended up dying in that hutch...most probably because of whatever was in the wood. The rabbit was healthy when we gave it to her.



it is constructed of wood and wire, but they are on patio pavers for the surface. how would I know if wood was the problem?


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## Firewing124 (Jul 26, 2016)

i guess my last comment might not be as clear on the heat situation, and yes I understand the concern and appreciate it. I would not let my rabbits mindlessly suffer as alot of thought went into making my rabbitry. 
I have a freezer full of the two liter bottles that I brought out daily and would change them when needed. The fan is a large box fan located to the side of the cage, with an attached misting system. The mist gives off enough to provide relief without making the floor soaked or causing respiratory issues. frozen bottles are also behind the fan to create a cooling effect. the shade provides a great amount if relief and a tarp has been added to half the cage to trap a bit of the cold air in while still letting them have ventilation. When I have a chance I can get a reading on the temp in the colony. Eventually I plan to invest in a few extra fans for better relief. I considered dehydration and had to eventually cage them to monitor food and water intake. Not to mention that the calf manna given was in early morning and having 1/2 cup for several rabbits I guessed it would cause no harm, but if suggested I would be fine pulling it for future summers.


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## Blue eyes (Jul 26, 2016)

Firewing124 said:


> Several of the rabbits are from another breeder who has them outside all year in a similar colony style. She lost few to none from heat .



This breeder may keep them outdoors with "few" losses, but if she is in the valley (as opposed to the cooler mountain areas) then I (personally) would question her methods. It is just too blazing hot with constant temperature between 100 and 120. 

I understand the idea of misters, etc, but -- my opinion -- it still doesn't do enough. The rabbits may survive but they have to be just miserable. 

We lost our house A/C last summer for 10 days. We had fans, swamp coolers, etc. going and *we* were miserable, just dripping with sweat. 

I appreciate that you are doing a lot of legwork with frozen bottles, etc. -- far more than most people would do -- yet it still seems far from ideal -- both for you and for your rabbits. 

The breeder from where you got your rabbits is not (in my opinion) a shining example to follow.

I wish you the best with your rabbits. I hope you will be able to make it much easier on yourself someday by having a/c for the rabbits' housing.


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## Firewing124 (Jul 27, 2016)

majorv said:


> I can only guess at what happened but I do know that heat can stress kits to the point of death, and I don't mean due to heatstroke. How hot did the temps get in the area they were in? Stress plays havoc on the digestive system, especially in youngsters.
> I also know that it's not a good idea to feed calf manna in the hot summer...the high protein content will cause the rabbits to get hotter after they eat it. I only give a small amount to nursing does for the first couple weeks to help with milk production and then stop. I try not to have does nursing past May.
> 
> Are the rabbits on or around a wood surface? If so, you could have something toxic...bacteria or other, in the wood. We had a friend with a wood hutch who kept losing her rabbits. She thought she cleaned it well so we gave her a young rabbit. It ended up dying in that hutch...most probably because of whatever was in the wood. The rabbit was healthy when we gave it to her.





Blue eyes said:


> This breeder may keep them outdoors with "few" losses, but if she is in the valley (as opposed to the cooler mountain areas) then I (personally) would question her methods. It is just too blazing hot with constant temperature between 100 and 120.
> 
> I understand the idea of misters, etc, but -- my opinion -- it still doesn't do enough. The rabbits may survive but they have to be just miserable.
> 
> ...



I am going to have to disagree with you. Several breeders in the valley strive without a/c when done correctly. with little to no losses. the little most likely not being due to heat related stress. although a/c is ideal for keeping up with other chores, it is not a necessity. But yes, if shaming other breeders is acceptable here I guess it really isn't the place for me, to be honest. I get where you are coming from but judging a successful breeder whom you do not know is a bit iffy to me. Thanks, though.


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## PetesM (Jul 27, 2016)

Firewing124 said:


> I am going to have to disagree with you. Several breeders in the valley strive without a/c when done correctly. with little to no losses. the little most likely not being due to heat related stress. although a/c is ideal for keeping up with other chores, it is not a necessity. But yes, if shaming other breeders is acceptable here I guess it really isn't the place for me, to be honest. I get where you are coming from but judging a successful breeder whom you do not know is a bit iffy to me. Thanks, though.



Just because rabbits aren't dying from heatstroke doesn't mean they're living good lives. I think you will find that most people here go to great lengths to make the lives of their rabbits as enjoyable and comfortable as possible. When our AC went out, we moved our rabbit to a friend's house bc temps indoors were over 80F (what we consider the limit for our rabbit).


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## majorv (Jul 27, 2016)

Rabbits can adapt to higher temps, that I know. We are on the Gulf Coast and our rabbits are outside, too. I don't fault you for that because it sounds like your doing what you need to. The misters probably help quite a bit. 
When you brought the rabbits in from the other breeder did you quarantine them before mixing them with your colony? My only other thought would be that if you lose another one to the same symptoms you should arrange for a good necropsy to be done so you have a better idea of what's lurking in your colony.


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## Firewing124 (Jul 27, 2016)

majorv said:


> Rabbits can adapt to higher temps, that I know. We are on the Gulf Coast and our rabbits are outside, too. I don't fault you for that because it sounds like your doing what you need to. The misters probably help quite a bit.
> When you brought the rabbits in from the other breeder did you quarantine them before mixing them with your colony? My only other thought would be that if you lose another one to the same symptoms you should arrange for a good necropsy to be done so you have a better idea of what's lurking in your colony.



Thank you! Yes, almost all of my rabbits came from her, but for stock from her I did a 2 week quarantine and rabbits from anywhere else got a 30 day (which wasnt something I had to do often) 
I do my own necropsys with my own research but i am wondering if I could send off the body to have things tested that you can't normally see. A vet would do so, correct?


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## Happi Bun (Jul 27, 2016)

Rabbits can start feeling uncomfortable at temps above 83 F. They are not designed to tolerate heat well.

The normal rectal temperature for a rabbit is 101-103 F. A temperature reading of 104 can be caused by heat stress, emotional distress or infection. This is the point you want to start seriously trying to cool the bunny. A temperature reading of 105 or higher is considered an emergency and risks potentially irreversible harm. 

I would highly recommend you invest in a rectal thermometer. 

If you see a rabbit with a body temperature that is too high and showing symptoms of heat stress:
-*Most importantly* Bring the rabbit inside where there is AC
-Put cool (not cold) water on the rabbit's ears
-Put the rabbit in a place where you can pour cool water over his/her back
*Remember: dropping their body temperature too quickly is just as dangerous*
-Offer cold water from a bowl
-Seek immediate veterinary treatment (my personal recommendation)
-Keep putting cool water on the ears/body and periodically check the body temperature using the rectal thermometer to see if any progress is being made. You also don't want to drop the temperature too low.

It's disconcerting that you've lost so many rabbits. It could be an infectious disease or parasite related. I would highly recommend applying for pet health insurance (like CareCredit) or starting a savings for vet emergencies. I'm poor and have very limited income. However, I have CareCredit and have built up a savings so I've thankfully never had to deny vet care when needed.


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## RavenousDragon (Jul 27, 2016)

Firewing124 said:


> I do my own necropsys with my own research but i am wondering if I could send off the body to have things tested that you can't normally see. A vet would do so, correct?



Yes. Veterinarians often send off tissues for microscope analysis, and can test for viruses, bacteria and other issues with special tests.


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## Firewing124 (Jul 28, 2016)

RavenousDragon said:


> Yes. Veterinarians often send off tissues for microscope analysis, and can test for viruses, bacteria and other issues with special tests.



thank you!


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## majorv (Jul 28, 2016)

Yes, we've had to have a couple of necropsies done. One of them the body was sent to a vet school an hour away and they did a lot of testing of tissues etc. I can't say that the cause of death is always definitive but it may help you figure out what's going on.


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