# Vegetarian/Vegan



## Lissa (Jan 18, 2006)

Just curious.


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## m.e. (Jan 18, 2006)

Used to be (vegetarian for 2 years, vegan for one of those)

I'm a backslider  I'm dairy-free anyway, and I'm trying to avoid meaton Wednesdays and Fridays. I'm also _trying_ to work myself up tothe whole fasting thing - the next big fast, over Lent, is basicallyseven weeks of a strict vegan diet. So I'm getting there...kinda.

~Emily and the Fuzzbutts~


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## SAS (Jan 18, 2006)

I'm a vegetarian, but I still do eggs and dairy. 

And I'll slaughter the odd clam or scallop (as long as it doesn't look at me). I'm feeling bad about that, though.

I foundmyself saving a fruit fly the other day. Thepoor thing flew into the fridge and I found him on my cheese in themorning, looking dead asa doornail. I rememberedhow some newborn rabbits that get pushed out of the nest get cold andstiff but still can be revived, so I warmed him up and sure enough, offhe flew. 

Sometimes I wonder about myself. :foreheadsmack:


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## Maureen Las (Jan 18, 2006)

SAS..if you saved a fruit fly then I really admire you :love::heart:you think just like I do !!!


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## seniorcats (Jan 19, 2006)

*m.e. wrote:*


> Used to be (vegetarian for 2years, vegan for one of those)
> 
> I'm a backslider  I'm dairy-free anyway, and I'm trying to avoid meaton Wednesdays and Fridays. I'm also _trying_ to work myself up tothe whole fasting thing - the next big fast, over Lent, is basicallyseven weeks of a strict vegan diet. So I'm getting there...kinda.
> 
> ~Emily and the Fuzzbutts~




Another backslider raising her hand. I was a vegetarian for 7and 1/2 years and then one Memorial Day, I got barbecue chickenlust. Something about the comparison of a bland tasteless'loaf' made of white navy beans compared to barbecue.....I wassunk. We still have a lot of meatless days but I refuse toeat the darn navy bean loaf ever again.


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## alfie and angel (Jan 19, 2006)

Hi,

I have been vegetarian for 14 years and have eaten a vegan diet foralmost two years. I rarely say that I'm vegan however because it isquite provocative sometimes. I think it can make people defensive oftheir own dietry choices and I would never like to be thought of asself righteous or judgemental. It's just easier for me. 

I don't think anyone should feel bad about backsliding. If you are inany way uncomfortable about eating meat or dairy products then anychanges to your diet in this way are a contribution to what you beliveand you deserve respect, you don't have to go the whole hog [as itwere] to make a difference.

hurrah for diertry diversity!


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## Lissa (Jan 19, 2006)

*alfie and angel wrote: *


> Hi,
> 
> I have been vegetarian for 14 years and have eaten a vegan diet foralmost two years. I rarely say that I'm vegan however because it isquite provocative sometimes. I think it can make people defensive oftheir own dietry choices and I would never like to be thought of asself righteous or judgemental. It's just easier for me.
> 
> ...


Good for you!! :elephant: I don't want to callmyself vegan because I still eat cheese. But my lifestyle isalmost vegan. So I call myself vegatarian(vee-guh-tarian). It's difficult to live this way, but it'sso satisfying. My house is almost cruelty-free.:bunnydance: I won't eat any kind of meatwhatsoever. I don't eat gellatin. I don't wear fur,leather or any dead animal skin. I buy products that have NOTbeen tested on animals. Cheese is a tough one because it's soaddicting. I don't know if I can ever kick thecheese.


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## seniorcats (Jan 19, 2006)

There are gelatins made from seaweed.I believe it's called agar agar. They work verywell. A lot of heatlh food stores carry agar agar or productsmade with this. I am also thinking carageenean may be anotherseaweed tye thickener but Ican't remember. (time to google)

The thing about cheese is that you may not always know the source ofthe rennet used in the cheese. Some comes from cows, somefrom vegatable sources and some is a newer manufactured rennet(synthetic). The food coop where I used to live labeled allthe cheese. I don't know how to tell now where the rennet isfrom.

Cruelty-free products - it might be useful to have some links forcruelty-free products in case people are interested in purchasingthem. It's very hard to eliminate animal by-products (cattlehair in felt tip pens, car fan belts, etc.)but if that issomeone's interest, any little bit helps. Thehardest thing I have found is finding decent looking//feelingnon-leather shoes. Does anyone know a source?

Paul Mitchell hair care products are cruelty-free and available at mosthair dressers. Beauty Without Cruelty and my personalfavorite, The Body Shop. I'll have to look uplinks. There are also a lot internet sites for making yourown cosmetic products (just google mome made cosmetics or somethingsimilar). Most use fruits and vegy's, honey, oatmeal,etc. My favorite 'recipe' duplicates The Body Shops JapaneseWashing Grains. You just need the space to grow JapaneseAdzuki beans in the summer, let them dry in the pod, harvest and grindto a fine consistency in a coffee grinder or food processor - dirtcheap to do and a great scrub. Johnny's Selected Seeds inAlbion Maine has the Adzuki bean seeds and they have a web site andcatalog for mail order.

I'll look up links later and post if anyone wants them.


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## Lissa (Jan 19, 2006)

ARTICLE QUOTED FROM WWW.NOTMILK.COM



> GETTING LOST WITH DRUGS
> 
> Heroin users "get lost" after injecting chemically processed
> poppy juice into their veins. Homer reported that Ulysses
> ...


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## Lissa (Jan 19, 2006)

*seniorcats wrote:*


> There are gelatins made from seaweed. I believeit's called agar agar. They work very well. A lotof heatlh food stores carry agar agar or products made withthis. I am also thinking carageenean may be another seaweedtye thickener but Ican't remember. (time to google)


Right on. Gelatin grosses me out. 

:vomit:


> The thing about cheese is that you may not always know thesource of the rennet used in the cheese. Some comes fromcows, some from vegatable sources and some is a newer manufacturedrennet (synthetic). The food coop where I used to livelabeled all the cheese. I don't know how to tell now wherethe rennet is from.


Cheese is extremely addicting, as the article above states. Ilove it though. I will stop eating it someday. Ican do it! I can do it! 





> Cruelty-free products - it might be useful to have some linksfor cruelty-free products in case people are interested in purchasingthem. It's very hard to eliminate animal by-products (cattlehair in felt tip pens, car fan belts, etc.)but if that issomeone's interest, any little bit helps. Thehardest thing I have found is finding decent looking//feelingnon-leather shoes. Does anyone know a source?


You can find a list of cruelty free products onwww.peta.org. As for makeup,Almay and Revlon do not test on animals. I'll find the directlink. 

I believe most products at Bath &amp; Body works haven't been tested on animals as well.


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## Lissa (Jan 19, 2006)

Here is the direct link to companies that DO/DO NOT test on animals.

http://www.caringconsumer.com/searchcompany.asp


They are still performing what is known as the Draize test.This is what they are doing to our poor bunnies. Don't turn ablind eye to this. Animals are suffering relentlessly behindour backs so that we aren't stupid enough to spray windex in ourseyes. It's infuriating.

http://www.peta.org/factsheet/files/FactsheetDisplay.asp?ID=91


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## AmberNBuns (Jan 19, 2006)

That is an interesting article Lissa. I have agrowing [interest? suspicion?] in the food sources of America, the FDA(any coincidence it is the FOOD *AND* DRUG administration?) etc.

This gives more fuel to my fire. I have not gone vegetarian yet but I have made some major lifestyle changes lately.

On the suspicion that there is so much profitability in the generalpublic being sick and fat, I have begun to shun most processed foods. Ibuy organic (except when I really cannot afford it) I don't use refinedsugar, I drink only fresh juice, occasional milkand bottledwater, anything in my house with MSG or HFCS has been given away to aneedy single mother, I don't use over the counter or prescriptiondrugs... I don't even believe in my doctor half the time. She's just anoverpaid drug pusher.

But I digress...

My health and mood has changed DRAMATICALLY since I have been moreselective in my diet and begun reading labels. If I cannot pronounceit, I won't eat it.


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## Lissa (Jan 19, 2006)

Here is a link to a video on factoryfarming. Please be careful. This isn't for thefaint of heart. I do encourage everyone to watch this videoAND visit PETA's website. I know PETA has a badreputation, but they are saving so many animals.Please just look at the site. 

http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/Prefs.asp?video=meet_your_meat


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## LuvaBun (Jan 19, 2006)

I have been vegetarian for 12 years, though I still have eggs (as long as they are free range) and dairy.

I too steer clear of gelatine (yuck), don't wear fur or leather and usethings not tested on animals. I don't miss meat at all, especially asin the UK we have a thing called Quorn (relation to the mushroomfamily, I believe) and it has the texture of meat and can be flavouredtoo. The only thing I ever missed was Tuna, but now a health placenearby does vegetarian tuna and fish steaks, so i am quitehappy. I would never preach to people about what they shouldor shouldn't eat, but my hubby turned veggie six years ago, just byseeing what I ate and why.

SAS, had to laugh about the fruit fly. I 'rescue' worms that are on thepath by picking them up and putting them on the grass, and I alwayscatch wasps that are caught inside, and release them outside. I oncespent half an hour in a cafe trapping one in a glass and letting it gooutside, much to the amusement of other people having a coffee:embarrassed:

Jan


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## Lissa (Jan 19, 2006)

*LuvaBun wrote: *


> I'rescue' worms that are on the path by picking them up and putting themon the grass, and I always catch wasps that are caught inside, andrelease them outside. I once spent half an hour in a cafe trapping onein a glass and letting it go outside, much to the amusement of otherpeople having a coffee :embarrassed:
> 
> Jan


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## seniorcats (Jan 19, 2006)

Burt's Bee's, another good place for hair care, soap, lotions, etc. Not expensive and available at a lot of groceries.

http://www.burtsbees.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/TopCategoriesDisplay?langId=-1&amp;storeId=10101&amp;catalogId=10751


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## Lissa (Jan 19, 2006)

Some vegans don't use bees wax. I find that rather absurd myself.


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## Greta (Jan 19, 2006)

I was vegetarian... for a week. I just missedmeat too much to stick with it...  But I tried! really I did! I alsorescue worms from out of puddles, put house-bound spiders outside, andyes, save the occasional fly!


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## Lissa (Jan 20, 2006)

Just out of curiosity, how do you quit beingveg*n? I can't imagine ever going back. It's toomuch ofa spiritual thing to part from for me.


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## m.e. (Jan 20, 2006)

Because I don't believe that eating meat is wrong, or _necessarily_ cruel.

I do think that being a vegan has it'sbenefits, especially for one's health. And a part of me wishes I hadthe self-control to do that again (though I have kept the fast so fartoday, and it feels good :bunnydance

But even if I *did* go back toveganism, I still wouldn't think that eating meat was wrong. I totallyrespect your beliefs and convictions, it's just not something Ishare.

~Emily and the Fuzzbutts~


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## Lissa (Jan 20, 2006)

If these weren't beliefs that you shared, why did you choose to be veg*n in the first place. :?


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## AmberNBuns (Jan 20, 2006)

I think some people might choose a veganlifestyle more due to their perception of the health benefits and lessbecause they feel a moral conviction. 

Or more specifically, as in my sister's case, the belief that they aredoing something good by making such choices, without finding thatothers are wrong for believing differently.

I think that a person might just be grossed out at the thought ofwearing leather, but not feeling a moral objection to leather itself.

I am just speculating though.


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## Lissa (Jan 20, 2006)

*AmberNBuns wrote:*


> I think some people might choose a vegan lifestyle more dueto their perception of the health benefits and less because they feel amoral conviction.


I never heard of that. I guess I thought being veg*n was abit more spiritual. I guess I can see how it could be ahealth decision too. Hm.


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## m.e. (Jan 20, 2006)

Well Lissa,*most* of my vegetarian/vegan friends (yes, they're still veg)don't feel that eating meat/dairy/eggs, etc.is wrong. They doit for health reasons, they do it because they have allergies,orthey do it because they just don't like meat. Ethics isusually near the bottom of the list.

I became a vegan because, like I said, Ido believe it's healthier. I had just gotten back from a mission's tripwhere I practically lived on processed meats and cheese. It really mademe feel gross, andI needed a change.

I'll admit thatfor awhile, I didhave some convictions about the ethics of eating meat. I don't feelthat way now (and for the record, I changed my mind about that while Iwas still a vegan; I went back to eating meat for unrelated reasons).

~Emily and the Fuzzbutts~


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## AmberNBuns (Jan 20, 2006)

BTW - I applaud anybody who can commit to avegan lifestyle... I know that I do not have the will power to do so. Ihave considered it, but I would miss a lot of things - Cheese, yogurt,chicken, eggs, steak... Call me sick, but I enjoy the flavor of beef,and it really helps when I become anemic.

Vegans are incredible examples of self-control and self-awareness. I amsure there are a lot of people who feel that it is right to do, butstillsuccumb to conforming to society and it's standards.


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## Lissa (Jan 20, 2006)

*m.e. wrote:*


> Well Lissa, *most* of myvegetarian/vegan friends (yes, they're still veg) don't feel thateating meat/dairy/eggs, etc.is wrong. They do it for healthreasons, they do it because they have allergies, orthey do itbecause they just don't like meat. Ethics is usually near the bottom ofthe list.
> 
> I became a vegan because, like I said, Ido believe it's healthier. I had just gotten back from a mission's tripwhere I practically lived on processed meats and cheese. It really mademe feel gross, andI needed a change.
> 
> ...


Thanks for elaborating. I learn something new everyday.


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## m.e. (Jan 20, 2006)

As for thespiritual reasons, I can see where you're coming from. Many Buddhistsdon't eat meat because they feel it is morally wrong to eat anothercreature.

In my church, the Orthodox Church, we"fast" (meaning, we don't eat meat, dairy, eggs, oil, and wine) twice aweek on Wednesdays and Fridays, as well as observe longer periods offasting throughout the year. This is done for the purpose of spiritualdiscipline, denial of self, etc. But not for ethicalreasons.


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## Lissa (Jan 20, 2006)

*AmberNBuns wrote:*


> BTW - I applaud anybody who can commit to a veganlifestyle... I know that I do not have the will power to do so. I haveconsidered it, but I would miss a lot of things - Cheese, yogurt,chicken, eggs, steak... Call me sick, but I enjoy the flavor of beef,and it really helps when I become anemic.
> 
> Vegans are incredible examples of self-control and self-awareness. I amsure there are a lot of people who feel that it is right to do, butstillsuccumb to conforming to society and it's standards.


It is a lot of self control. For me, I've been strugglingwith cheese for quite some time now. I can't seem to kickit. I love cheese and it doesn't help that I'm from thecheesehead state.  I will stop eating iteventually. But I think I'd have an easier time quittingsmoking.


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## naturestee (Jan 20, 2006)

*m.e. wrote:*


> Well Lissa, *most* of myvegetarian/vegan friends (yes, they're still veg) don't feel thateating meat/dairy/eggs, etc.is wrong. They do it for healthreasons, they do it because they have allergies, orthey do itbecause they just don't like meat. Ethics is usually near the bottom ofthe list.


I've dabbled a bit with being vegatarian, but it was for a differentset of ethics than normal. Eating lower on the food chainmeans that I have less of an ecological "footprint"- the amount ofspace required to provide for all my needs. In the same way,when I did eat meat it was generally from animals that had smaller"footprints"- chickens, fish, etc. Commercial beef isextremely expensive in terms of the land used to grow all the corn andsuch- they are very inefficient. Even though I never wentcompletely vegetarian, I've often gone a week without meat.I've also found that I feel much more healthy when I eat vegetarianmore often. However, I have trouble getting enough iron evenwith a daily supplement and eating meat and iron-richveggies. Since I'm so prone to anemia, it would be a bad ideafor me to completely cut out meat.


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## thor (Feb 8, 2006)

I hope I'm not the only meat-eating rabbit owner out there...My husband and I are both meat eaters..We also have been weight training (seriously) for 20 years now, together! I used to compete in woman's bodybuilding shows (in my 20's) I'm 39 now, and I'd loose too much weight by eliminating meat from my diet. It's just not for me. All your comments are very interesting, and I have respect for all.


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## dreamgal042 (Feb 9, 2006)

I've been vegetarian for about 2 years now. My main reason is moral stuff, just that I don't believe that animals should be raised to be killed. Sure, you can't avoid it completely (i will admit to owning some leather things), but you do what you can.


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## Lissa (Feb 9, 2006)

That's exactly it. You do what you can.


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## manda (Feb 9, 2006)

i am not veg*n but nearly.
and its not totally for moral reasons.
i dont LIKE meat or dairy. so i dont eat it. the only meat i eat is sea food, and chicken every now and then. and the only dairy i have is like ice cream, and dairy in my ranch dressing, tartar sauce, etc.


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## loplover (Feb 9, 2006)

Thor- your the only meat eater hear- I eat meat too.

I am by no means a vegetarian and know that I could never be that way. I enjoy my meat and dairy way to much and don't seeany thingmorally wrong with this. I however do respect the fact that some people see that it is wrong.

I don't want to start an argument or any thing but why some of you find eating dairy morally wrong? Just curious


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## dreamgal042 (Feb 9, 2006)

> I don't want to start an argument or any thing but why some of you find eating dairy morally wrong? Just curious


 I can't say from personal experience, because I do eat dairy, but I have considered not doing so. Personally, I think dairy could be considered morally wrong because of the harsh conditions the animals are kept in. Sure, there exist some places that are ethical to the animals, and treat them very well. But some places, from what I've heard, are just atrocious. Most big businesses are just interested in making a buck, and if that means losing a cow or two, or a few chickens, they'll be willing to do that. I dunno, maybe I should do more research before I make this assessment... maybe its not completely based on fact... but thats what it seems like.

It's kinda like how the working conditions in the 1950s werent so good, and people wanted to fix that. at least, I think it was the 1950s....


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## Lissa (Feb 9, 2006)

*loplover wrote: *


> Thor- your the only meat eater hear- I eat meat too.
> 
> I am by no means a vegetarian and know that I could never be that way. I enjoy my meat and dairy way to much and don't seeany thingmorally wrong with this. I however do respect the fact that some people see that it is wrong.
> 
> I don't want to start an argument or any thing but why some of you find eating dairy morally wrong? Just curious


 Some peopleare against the way that the animals are treated. And some believe that humans weren't intended to consume any animal products. Some believe both.


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## Snuggys Mom (Feb 9, 2006)

How do vegetarians get enough protein? 

I've considered it before, but I'm not wild about beans or tofu.


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## manda (Feb 9, 2006)

nuts, peanut butter, beans....
vitimans


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## Lissa (Feb 10, 2006)

*Laura wrote: *


> How do vegetarians get enough protein?
> 
> I've considered it before, but I'm not wild about beans or tofu.


 Nuts, vegetables, beans, soy...there's lots of stuff out there. I probably don't get enough protein, but it isn't affecting me right now.


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## Lissa (Feb 10, 2006)

By the way, I'm not too crazy about tofu either. In fact, I've never tried it because I'm afraid too. You'd be surprised at how many mock chicken burgers taste just like chicken. It's unreal. Morningstar Farms has an excellent selection of chik burgers. Also, if you find a vegetarian restaurant try the walnut burger. Mmmm.


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## Snuggys Mom (Feb 10, 2006)

I like soy burgers and I don't mind tofu if it's in a tasty recipe. I've made curry tofu with basmati rice and it was YUMMY!

Laura


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## Lissa (Feb 10, 2006)

Nature burgers are the BOMB. They're made out of vegetables and rice. Very good.


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## alfie and angel (Feb 10, 2006)

Sliced Tofu roasted with garlic salt, mixed spices and soy sauce - so yummy!


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## Jenniblu (Feb 13, 2006)

It helps to plan out your meals and nutrition. I was a vegetarian for over a year and then feel off the wagon. I've been trying to come back for about a year now, because I felt so much better without eating meat - more energy, less extra weight, less digestive problems, etc. I'm trying to get back on the wagon before my 31st B-day (Sunday). 
*
Laura wrote: *


> How do vegetarians get enough protein?
> 
> I've considered it before, but I'm not wild about beans or tofu.


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## chubbers422 (Feb 13, 2006)

I have a thought both ways on becoming a vegetarian. I love animals so much, that I hurt when I eat meat, but... I am a christian (sorry if anyone out there isn't...) and I believethat Jesus put some of the animals here for us to eat. Even Jesus, who died for us, (please listen... I am NOT trying to start anything!!!:?) ate fish. Although there were not many other foods for them to eat back then. I don't think there was much of anything at all. My parents are NOT vegetarians.. and my father grew up very country. So he believes that it's not cruel to eat an animal. I'm not sure what to think.. and am a little confused. Can someone PM me with some advice? 

I don't see how drinking milk or eating Cheese or Eggs hurts an animal, though?? 



And what exactly is a Vegan? lol. I don't really have anyone around here to talk to about this, and I don't know any vegetarians. Thanks guys,



Rachel (please PM me.. I will forget about this post!!!)


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## m.e. (Feb 13, 2006)

Well, I'll pm you as well, but just to be clear, God did not allow the eating of meat until _after_ the Flood. The Biblical record suggests that not only were the first people vegeterians, so were all the animals. And after the Flood that changed (there's a lot of different arguments as to why that might be, including environmental changes, etc.)

Another interesting thing is that in the descriptions of the "new Heaven", the animals are vegeterians again: the wolf and lamb grazing together, the lion eating straw with the ox. Will we be vegetarians as well? It's hard to imagine any death in Heaven:dunno

I believe it is wrong to treat animals cruelly. Period. And I think a logical conclusion would be to stop eating meat because factory farmed animals are treated cruelly (including cows for dairy production, and hens in egg 'factories'). I don't think it is _wrong_ to kill animals, but I also don't think it's in any way un-Christian to avoid meat and animal products because of your strong convictions in that area.

Ethical reasons, though, are not limited to killing animals. Some people are vegs because they believe factory farming, cattle grazing, etc. is damaging to the environment. That's yet another ethical position that many Christians hold.


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## doodle (Feb 13, 2006)

*chubbers422 wrote: *


> I don't see how drinking milk or eating Cheese or Eggs hurts an animal, though??
> 
> And what exactly is a Vegan? lol. I don't really have anyone around here to talk to about this, and I don't know any vegetarians. Thanks guys,


 
I don't know that much about it, but have always thought with cheese and milk, etc., it's because of the bad conditions the animals are kept in.

I'm also curious about the difference between vegetarian and vegan. I'm thinking it's that vegetarians don't eat meat, but vegans go further and don't eat or use any products (if they can help it) that come from animals or where animals are used for testing??

Is that right, or is there more to it than that?

Sorry for my questions, I just don't know that much about it and am interested in learning.

I was also looking at the lists of products/companies that do and don't do animal testing, but didn't see Neutrogena on either list. Does anyone know if they do or not?


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## HollynRabbits (Feb 13, 2006)

Greta i was also vegetarian for a week or sooo i couldnt stand any longer i had to have tuna, finally i gave in and scarfed down a can of tuna and just decided maybe another day!!!:disgust:i couldnt do it :rabbithop


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## Lissa (Feb 14, 2006)

*chubbers422 wrote: *


> I have a thought both ways on becoming a vegetarian. I love animals so much, that I hurt when I eat meat, but... I am a christian (sorry if anyone out there isn't...) and I believethat Jesus put some of the animals here for us to eat. Even Jesus, who died for us, (please listen... I am NOT trying to start anything!!!:?) ate fish. Although there were not many other foods for them to eat back then. I don't think there was much of anything at all. My parents are NOT vegetarians.. and my father grew up very country. So he believes that it's not cruel to eat an animal. I'm not sure what to think.. and am a little confused. Can someone PM me with some advice?
> 
> I don't see how drinking milk or eating Cheese or Eggs hurts an animal, though??
> 
> ...


 Vegan is not eating animal products, wearing them (fur, leather, etc.) and not using products tested on animals. I consider mysefl vegatarian which is 50/50 (half vegetarian half vegan). The only thing that keeps me from being vegan is eating cheese. I love cheese. Do I believe it's wrong to eat cheese? It isn't as wrong as eating an animal. Nobody dies. But at the same time, are these animals being treated in a humane manner? Probably not. 

As far as Christianity, my decision to not eat flesh is separate from my religion. I don't believe that it is wrong as a christian to eat meat. Both vegetarianism and Christianity I feel strongly about. And I've struggled with this topic a lot until I came to the realization that they are two separate issues, not to be merged.


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## loplover (Feb 14, 2006)

What do vagens think about eating things that have egg or dairy produtds in them. Like cookies and cake?


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## Lissa (Feb 14, 2006)

Vegans do not eat anything with eggs, milk, gelatin, etc.


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## chubbers422 (Feb 14, 2006)

Why do they not eat eggs or milk? I don't get it... the animals will not use it. ??


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## LuvaBun (Feb 14, 2006)

*chubbers422 wrote: *


> Why do they not eat eggs or milk? I don't get it... the animals will not use it. ??


 It's mainly to do with the terrible conditions factory farmed animals are kept in.

Although I've been veggie for 12 years, I haven't eaten chicken for a lot longer as Ionce visited a factory chicken farm (called battery hens in UK). I was physically sick. The smell was unbearable, and the hens were in tiny cages (so they can't turn around) all on top of each other.

As for milk, the cows are repeatedly made pregnant, their calves taken away and killed, so the milk can be used for human consumption instead of the calf.

Jan


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## Lissa (Feb 14, 2006)

*chubbers422 wrote: *


> Why do they not eat eggs or milk? I don't get it... the animals will not use it. ??


 Cows are pumped with all kinds of hormones to produce the milk we consume. It is in no waynatural.


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## FlopsnWills (Feb 14, 2006)

i was a vegetarian for a year, and at the time it was because of the way animals are treated in those horrible slaughter houses. i stopped vegetarianismbecause i pretty much gave up and i knew i wasn't changing anything... and i also really missed burgers. when i was a vegetarian, i didn't eat chicken or fish and people thought that was so strange. i might go back to it eventually, but for now, i don't have the will power.

lissa- morningstar hasthe best fake meat out there! i loved their italian chicken marinara sandwich.. yummy!


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## FlopsnWills (Feb 14, 2006)

yes, and not only are cows pumped with hormones and antibiotics (that we ingest), chickens are pumped with hormones to make them lay un-natural amounts of eggs.


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## HollynRabbits (Feb 14, 2006)

and go from a 1 day old chick to a hen in about 3 weeks!!! thats is soooo unatural too....:bunnydance:


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## Martina (Feb 15, 2006)

*Vegan: excludes animal flesh (meat, poultry, fish and seafood), animal products (eggs and dairy), and excludes honey and the wearing and use of animal products (leather, silk, wool, lanolin, gelatin...). *



*Cheese and Dairy... Well a lot of people don't realize what rennet is,it was already talked about but people keep asking so... *most*cheeseunless it clearly says otherwise has animals based rennet in it which is the stomach liningof slaughtered newly-born calves, a lot of the times they are taken right away from there mothers which are usuallydairy cows,usually they are cut open when they are still alive when the people are trying to take there stomach contents. So that is killing and a lot of people thinkcheese iscruel free and vegetarian which obviously it mostly isn't. So dairy cows which are the mothers of these rennet calves are kept in bad conditions there calves are taking away from them and life is not great at all! oh and then they get killed when they stop producing enough



*Eggs... battery hens are kept in horrible conditions, The battery hen is an anxious, frustrated, fear-ridden birds forced to spend 10-12 monthssqueezed inside a small wire cage with up to9 othertormented hens.Caged for life without exercise while constantly drained of calcium to form egg shells, battery hens develop the severe osteoporosis of intensive confinement know as caged layer fatigue. Calcium depleted, millions of hens become paralysed and die of hunger and thirst inches from their food and water. Battery hens are debeaked with a hot machine blade once and often twice during their lives, typically at one day old and again at seven weeks old, because a young beak will often grow back. Debeaking causes severe, chronic pain and suffering which researchers compare to human phantom limb and stump pain. Between the horn and bone of the beak is a thick layer of highly sensitive tissue. The hot blade cuts through this sensitive tissue impairing the hen's ability to eat, drink, wipe her beak, and preen normally. Debeaking is done to offset the effects of the compulsive pecking that can afflict birds designed by nature to roam, scratch, and peck at the ground all day, not sit in prison; and to save feed costs and promote conversion of less food into more eggs. Debeaked birds have impaired grasping ability and are in pain and distress, therefore eating less, flinging their food less, and "wasting" less energy than intact birds.



*"Free Range" Eggs...In order to get laying hens you have to have fertile eggs and half the eggs will hatch into male chicks. These are killed at once or raised as table birds (usually these days in broiler houses) and slaughtered as soon as they reach an economic weight. So for every free-range hen happily scratching around the garden or farm who, if she were able to bargain, might pay rent with her daily infertile egg, a corresponding male from her batch is enduring life in a broiler house or has already been subjected to slaughter or thrown away to die. Every year in Britain alone more than 35 million day-old male chicks are killed. They are mainly used for fertilizer or dumped in landfill sites. The hens are also culled as soon as their production drops. Also be aware that many sites classed as free range aren't really free range, they're just massive barns with access to the outside. Since the food and light are inside the chickens rarely venture outside. So any barn with a door can be considered "free range" which is pathetic.


*Gelatin is not vegetarian, It is made from boiledbones, skins, hoofs, tendons and ligaments of cows, pigs, fish and other animals, I don't see how so called vegetarians call them selfs that when they admit they eat gelatin but say they don't eat meat.



*Bees and Honey... Bees are killed in the production of honey, in the worst case the whole hive may be destroyed if the keeper doesn't wish to protect them over the winter. Not all beekeepers do this, but the general practice is one that embodies the attitude that living things are mere *material* and have no intrinsic value of their own other than what commercial value we can wrench from them. Artificial insemination involving death of the male is now also the norm for generation of new queen bees. The favoured method of obtaining bee sperm is by pulling off the insects head. Decapitation sends an electrical impulse to the nervous system which causes sexual arousal. The lower half of the headless bee is then squeezed to make it ejaculate. The resulting liquid is collected in a hypodermic syringe.



*Cochineal/Carmine...Cochineal is a bright red colouring matter made from the dried bodies of a Mexican insect Dactylopius coccus. Billions of these insects are raised and destroyed each year for a red colouring that is used in desserts, some strawberry soya milks, clothing, etc. 



*Silk...It is the practice to boil the cocoons that still contain the living moth larvae in order to obtain the silk. This produces longer silk threads than if the moth was allowed to emerge. The silkworm can certainly feel pain and will recoil and writhe when injured.



*Wool... Scientists over the years have bred a Merino sheep which is exaggeratedly wrinkled. The more wrinkles, the more wool. Unfortunately, greater profits are rarely in the sheep's best interests. In Australia, more wrinkles mean more perspiration and greater susceptibility to fly-strike, a ghastly condition resulting from maggot infestation in the sweaty folds of the sheep's over-wrinkled skin. To counteract this, farmers now perform an 'operation' without anaesthetic call 'mulesing' in which sections of flesh around the anus are sliced away, leaving a painful bloody wound.

Without human interference, sheep would grow just enough wool to protect them from the weather, but scientific breeding techniques have ensured that these animals have become wool-producing monstrosities.

Their unnatural overload of wool (often half their body weight) brings added misery during summer months when they often die from heat exhaustion. One million sheep die in Australia alone each year from exposure to cold after shearing. 

Every year, in Australia alone, about ten million lambs die before they are more than a few days old. This is due largely to unmanageable numbers of sheep and inadequate stockmen. Of UK wool, 27% is "skin wool," pulled from the skins of slaughtered sheep and lambs.



*Down/Feathers... The process of live-plucking is wide spread. The terrified birds are lifted by their necks, with their legs tied, and then have all their body feathers ripped out. The struggling geese sustain injuries and after their ordeal are thrown back to join their fellow victims until their turn comes round again. This torture, which has been described as "extremely cruel" by veterinary surgeons and even geese breeders, begins when the geese are only eight weeks old. It is then repeated at eight week intervals for two or three more sessions. The birds are then slaughtered. The main countries using this cruel process are China, Poland and Hungary, where some 60 per cent of down produced is live-plucked. The down market in the UK alone is worth around 2.6 million pounds per year. The "lucky" birds are plucked dead, i.e. they are killed first and then plucked. 



*Protein... Should I be worried about getting enough protein on a vegan diet? No, not as long as you're taking in enough calories. Official recommendations suggest that eating 8% of our daily energy as protein will provide an adequate amount. National and international recommendations for protein intake are based on animal sources of protein such as meat, cow's milk and eggs. Plant proteins may be less digestible because of intrinsic differences in the nature of the protein and the presence of other factors such as fibre, which may reduce protein digestibility by as much as 10%. Nevertheless, dietary studies show the adequacy of plant foods, as sole sources of protein as does the experience of healthy vegans of all ages.

The main protein foods in a vegan diet are the pulses (peas, beans and lentils), nuts, seeds and grains, all of which are relatively energy dense. As the average protein level in pulses is 27% of calories; in nuts and seeds 13%; and in grains 12%, it is easy to see that plant foods can supply the recommended amount of protein as long as the energy requirements are met.



*Iron..."Iron deficiency, unlike protein deficiency, sometimes is a real problem, but meat is not the answer." The American Dietetic Association said in 1988 that vegetarians don't have a higher incidence of iron deficiency than non-vegetarians.

If you are concerned about getting enough iron, avoid eating iron-rich foods along with substances that inhibit iron absorption: phytates (found in high-bran and unmilled cereals), polyphenols (such as tannins in tea) and calcium. Eat iron-rich foods along with foods containing vitamin C, which aids absorption. Good sources of iron include dried figs and prunes, dark-green leafy greens, legumes, certain whole grains such as quinoa and millet, blackstrap molasses, nuts and nutritional yeast. Acidic foods cooked in cast-iron pans are also good sources of the mineral.




There are good books about vegan things and a lot of great recipes, some helpers like people who are more active and less active and in between, so it helps you plan what you need, that is if you need help with enough energy and stuff If you are thatnot good at planing it out. It helps vegan athlete's work things out too, if you think you need more.



:shock:What did I forget? As you can probably tell I'm very much vegan and don't get me started on meat 


There are great substitutes for meat and dairy, I love Earth Balance vegan butter, It tastes just like real butter as far as I remember and non vegan family has agreed. There are really great egg alternativesand you can cook and bake or whatever with them.There are great vegan burgers and what nots that taste really good too. There are great soy milks that taste just like milk.If you miss things like cheese or ice cream there are great vegan products that taste like them or you can make it your self like I do. I missed chocolate andIce Creamso I make my own Vegan chocolate"Ice Cream" with tofu and other things, sure it sounds bad butIt is perfect and I got the recipe in a vegan cookbook along with vegan brownies that take only 4minutes to cook anda lot of really gooddinner recipes too, even though I make more desserts  

Oh and no offence but if you eat meat (including fish)and veggies you are an omnivore, If you don't eat meat a day or two out of the week you are not a vegetarian or a veganyou are still an omnivore

So that is my two cents I hope I didn't sound to preachy but at least I practice what I preach


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## Lissa (Feb 15, 2006)

Wow. Great information Martina!


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## loplover (Feb 15, 2006)

I would just like to say that it is so nice to be able to have this "Dicussion" were we voice out opinions and are able to ask questions of eachothers belifes with out geting all bent out of shape with each other. I enjoy seeing were other people are coming form on issues like this and often find that If I ask people about it they get offended.


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## chubbers422 (Feb 17, 2006)

Wow. This is a very interesting discussion! lol. OMG.. the hens couldn't turn around?! Our chicken houses are pretty good around here. One of my dad's friends from work has 55,000 chickens... more or less. He has huge houses, and there are ood sized pens that the hens stay in, and 5 stay in each.


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## Linz_1987 (Feb 21, 2006)

Help! 

I do aHospitality and Cateringcourse at college. We have been doing written work all week, and we have been looking at different types of meat and things. The pictures are disguisting! The poor things! Its gross because you can actually make out which animal is which . 

Anyway I think it has put me off meat for ever. I had yesterdays dinner earlier before work, and we had pork. But when I saw it on my plate I felt ill, and when I took one bite I was very nearly sick! I dont know if I can eat meat anymore :?Even that I ate all my pork today, I wasnt happy eating it. 

I love steak and chips though I dont think I can ever eat it again. It just made me realise that we are eating live animals. I didnt really think of it that way before. My college lessons have made me think of it in a completely different way. Its a good job I dont want to be a chef as I would have to COOK the meat and prepare it! (I want to work in a hotel doing bar work or waitressing).


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## Jenniblu (Feb 22, 2006)

*Broiler birds are a cross-breed bird - usually between a white rock and cornish. Sadly, most male laying hens are 'put down' shortly after hatch. Even in the 'good old days' male chickens didn't live long as most homesteaders would cook them before they started to crow and reach puberty. I really don't want to go into what can happen if you have too many males and not enough females. Let's just say it is not good for the females.

Martina wrote:*


> ...
> 
> *"Free Range" Eggs...In order to get laying hens you have to have fertile eggs and half the eggs will hatch into male chicks. These are killed at once or raised as table birds (usually these days in broiler houses) and slaughtered as soon as they reach an economic weight. So for every free-range hen happily scratching around the garden or farm who, if she were able to bargain, might pay rent with her daily infertile egg, a corresponding male from her batch is enduring life in a broiler house or has already been subjected to slaughter or thrown away to die.


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## Linz_1987 (Feb 24, 2006)

Well after the talk in my lessons about meat, Its has clearly put me off meat for life.

But then again I wasnt a real fan of it anyway. I never liked chicken, turkey etc. I only ever liked sirlion steak and chips at a pub.

Our family only ever buy free range eggs anyway.

But I didnt know that the calfs were killed as soon as they were born so we can have the milk! Thats awful.

I would like some information in a healthy diet then If i am turning into a vegetarian. I suppose you could call me a vegan as I am allergic to dairy products! But even if i wasnt allergic to it, I would certainly not be drinking milk anymore.

I found out I was allergic to dairy products about 4 years ago, as when I have any I get really bad excyma.However, Ive been taking calcium tablets instead of the milk. 

But what other vitimans etc do you need if you are a vegan? (I still eat eggs though, free range)

Please reply asap as I have no idea what to eat! :?lol


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## Martina (Feb 24, 2006)

Thanks Lissa 

I'm glad at leastsome people herewant to be vegan or vegetarian 

So you think "free range" eggs are ok let me remind you..."Free Range" Eggs...In order to get laying hens you have to have fertile eggs and half the eggs will hatch into male chicks. These are killed at once or raised as table birds (usually these days in broiler houses) and slaughtered as soon as they reach an economic weight. So for every free-range hen happily scratching around the garden or farm who, if she were able to bargain, might pay rent with her daily infertile egg, a corresponding male from her batch is enduring life in a broiler house or has already been subjected to slaughter or thrown away to die. Every year in Britain alone more than 35 million day-old male chicks are killed. They are mainly used for fertilizer or dumped in landfill sites. The hens are also culled as soon as their production drops. Also be aware that many sites classed as free range aren't really free range, they're just massive barns with access to the outside. Since the food and light are inside the chickens rarely venture outside. So any barn with a door can be considered "free range" which is pathetic.

You are not a vegan if you eat eggs no exception sorry.
If one is vegan and good at getting all the veggies and stuff they need they don't need extra vitamins, here are some things on protein and iron ...

*Protein... Should I be worried about getting enough protein on a vegan diet? No, not as long as you're taking in enough calories. Official recommendations suggest that eating 8% of our daily energy as protein will provide an adequate amount. National and international recommendations for protein intake are based on animal sources of protein such as meat, cow's milk and eggs. Plant proteins may be less digestible because of intrinsic differences in the nature of the protein and the presence of other factors such as fiber, which may reduce protein digestibility by as much as 10%. Nevertheless, dietary studies show the adequacy of plant foods, as sole sources of protein as does the experience of healthy vegans of all ages.

The main protein foods in a vegan diet are the pulses (peas, beans and lentils), nuts, seeds and grains, all of which are relatively energy dense. As the average protein level in pulses is 27% of calories; in nuts and seeds 13%; and in grains 12%, it is easy to see that plant foods can supply the recommended amount of protein as long as the energy requirements are met.

*Iron..."Iron deficiency, unlike protein deficiency, sometimes is a real problem, but meat is not the answer." The American Dietetic Association said in 1988 that vegetarians don't have a higher incidence of iron deficiency than non-vegetarians. If you are concerned about getting enough iron, avoid eating iron-rich foods along with substances that inhibit iron absorption: phytates (found in high-bran and unmilled cereals), polyphenols (such as tannins in tea) and calcium. Eat iron-rich foods along with foods containing vitamin C, which aids absorption. Good sources of iron include dried figs and prunes, dark-green leafy greens, legumes, certain whole grains such as quinoa and millet, blackstrap molasses, nuts and nutritional yeast. Acidic foods cooked in cast-iron pans are also good sources of the mineral.


So if you just eat the proper foods you will be fine.maybe to make it more appetizing (if you think it is just veggies) get some vegan books or findrecipes on the Internet, vegweb has some really good recipes. if you find a local health, vegan shop orrestaurant around you that will make it alot easier, we are lucky here in near Vancouver to have quite a few vegan places but they are everywhere. But people should really look it up more on the Internet there are alot of great websites, they answer all of anyones questions


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## Linz_1987 (Feb 24, 2006)

Ah ok I thought free range eggs were acceptionable, but I didnt realise the male chicks were still killed. That is really cruel. But I wouldnt of thought there was that much recipes out there for vegans? I hope there is though.

Like if you cant eat meat, fish, eggs, milk, cheese, wot else is there to eat lol. You must be really limited! For instance you cant bake a cake without eggs or milk! Or you cant eat bread either!?

I must admit I have tryed to bake a cake with soya milk, but it certainly didnt turn out as good. 

I will look for vegan/vegetarian books for recipes etc. I think all your advice was great, thank you. I didnt realise they treated animals this way, If i knew I would of been a vegetarian/vegan years ago.

I think I will stick asa vegetarian because all my family are meat eaters, and being a vegan wouldnt go with my lifestyle at the moment. As my mum hasnt got the time to cook for seperate people. But when I leave home I will definetly consider it. 

To be honest I do want to become a vegan, but I would have no idea what to eat. But as I say I will be looking for easy recipes to do for one person cooking! 

Thankz! I can go away now not worrying about not having enoughprotien in my body!


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## alfie and angel (Feb 24, 2006)

and marmite is surprisingly vegan and a good source of vit B12 which is often said to be 'impossible' for vegans toget.

No good if you don't LOVEit tho.

Me and boyf just make vegan choc cake - soooo yum!

and vegan pancakes 

and vegan yorkshire puds

and vegan scrambled eggs (from tofu - don't knock it till you've tried it)

and vegan ice cream

vegan custard

vegan cookies

vegan pate

-and on that note , I'm off to ransack the fridge!


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## Linz_1987 (Feb 24, 2006)

How do you make vegan yorkshires, pancakes etc when you cant use milk or eggs??

(on THAT note don't forget pancake day tuesday! )

[line]

Also I didnt think this was worth it to post a new post about this, but I have been looking through the vegweb site and it has GREAT recipes that I can easily do! 

But what is a 'cup' of something? How much does a 'cup' weigh?


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## Martina (Feb 24, 2006)

yes I'm glad you people realize that 

There are alot of really good recipes, I also make vegan chocolate cakes, brownies (that only take four minutes), cookies, vegan "ice cream" (you can even put the vegan cookie dough in it),vegan French bread,vegan fake meat, veganfake butter (i use Earth Balance), veganfake mayonnaise (called veganaise) and so on... and it has almost nothing to do with just fruits and vegetables so it isn't boring or restricted. 

For eggs you can buy Ener-G egg replacer, tofu with some water, a mashed banana, applesauce or pureed fruit, blendedflax seeds, or soy flour plus 1 tablespoon water for one egg, obviously some are better for sweet baked goods and some are better for not sweet stuff. Soymilk can be used in almost any recipe too, there are even plain, vanilla or chocolate soymilks.


For those who have not found a vegan pancake recipe here you go...

Vegan Pancakes

1 cup of flour

1 Teaspoon baking powder

1 teaspoon baking soda

1/4 teaspoon salt

1 cup soymilk

3/4 cup water


In a medium bowl, stir together the flour, baking powder, baking soda, and salt. Add the soymilk, water and stir until "just mixed". Portion out about 1/3 cup of the batter onto a hot non-stick pan or lightly oiled frying pan. Let sit on medium heat until the center starts to bubble and become sturdy. Flip pancake over and cook other side until golden brown. Repeat process until batter is gone. Make 2 or more servings.
You can add whatever you want to them fruits orhave them with veganvanilla "ice cream"





1 cup is about 200 grams I think, if that helps :?


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## alfie and angel (Feb 24, 2006)

Note to self - remember pancake day - thanks!

mostly, eggs are used in baking as a binding ingredient rather than for their taste so usually egg free 'egg' powder or vegan margerine olive oil or even very cold water can be used instead.

For the yorkie puds for example, mix the flour and vegan butter and then add soya milk until it is batter thickness (it's a BIT more complicated than this but there are loads of recipes).

I have some really good recipe books - I'll post the titles in the morning.

-sorry for sp mistakes - long day

-glad you're interested tho


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## Pipp (Feb 26, 2006)

*FlopsnWills wrote: *


> i was a vegetarian for a year, and at the time it was because of the way animals are treated in those horrible slaughter houses. i stopped vegetarianismbecause i pretty much gave up and i knew i wasn't changing anything... and i also really missed burgers. when i was a vegetarian, i didn't eat chicken or fish and people thought that was so strange. i might go back to it eventually, but for now, i don't have the will power.
> 
> lissa- morningstar hasthe best fake meat out there! i loved their italian chicken marinara sandwich.. yummy!


 Do you have Yves veggie burgers, etc. in your neighbourhood(s)? Somebody also makesa great Portebella veggie burger, but can't remember who.

Haven't seen Morningstar anywhere. 

sas :eatsand pipp :bunny2(who likes the buns!)


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## Martina (Feb 26, 2006)

Oh has anyone here tried "The Original Mountain Veggie Burger" from Big Mountain Foods (I think) it is vegan and really good and only takes like 3minutes to cook, there are alot of good veggie/vegan meats out there, people don't always give tofu products a chance though :? You shouldn't give up because you don't think you are changing anything because you are, maybe not as much as you want but one is making a difference just by howoneis living


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## alfie and angel (Feb 26, 2006)

http://www.goodnessdirect.co.uk/cgi-local/frameset/detail/266074.html



You can get this stuff cheaper in the shops I think but explore this uksite under 'vegan' for just a taster of all the 'imitation' meat and dairy out there.

And think how many different veggies there are compared to meats -and how many different ways of cooking them-so variety is certainly not a problem.

oh, and anyone interested should try recipes by Eva Batt, leah Leneman or Rose Elliot - some are better than others but it just depends on your taste.

:colors:Right now, I'm cooking, roast tofu and asparagus sandwiches with garlic spinach, raisin and pine nut salad - yummmmmmmm


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## TinysMom (Feb 26, 2006)

I'm not vegan or vegetarian and never really had any desire to be....still don't know that I do.

But...this thread caught my eye today and I read through it. I want to say I'm so pleased at the discussion going on - how folks could ask questions and not be attacked if they weren't vegan or vegetarian. I really found the openness here so refreshing.....

Years and years ago (um...almost 30 years ago) I did a report on vegetarianism and one of the resources I used was a book called something like "Diet for a Small Planet" or something like that....I know it was "Diet for" and I thought it had "Planet" or "Earth" in the title. It was a MAJOR book back then ('77 I think?). 

Maybe somebody will know the title and can share more about it. I know that it did make me think about what I ate back then and how I could get protein if I didn't eat meat....

Peg


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## Lissa (Feb 27, 2006)

The thought of eating eggs (think about what they really are!!) completely grosses me out. I no longer eat anything with eggs in it. GROSS.:vomit:


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## Martina (Feb 28, 2006)

To those who think they are not making a difference by what they eat or don't eat I have found a stat that says alot I think... *Everyday* 1,490,745 animals are saved by vegetarians and vegans. Consider the lives of the animals. Is it any less wrong to kill a cow than your dog? They both have feelings and emotions, and it is visible to see them go through this pain as they are being killed, harmed and starved. Be a voice for the animals. You alone can save the lives of 95 or moreanimals a year. 

I agree eggs are verydisgusting,I can't believe I used to eat them, even hidden in ingredients yuck


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## Bramble Briar86 (Mar 14, 2006)

The way animals are treated is sickening. Itmakes me glad to know that i raise my own hens, rabbits, and chickenoccasionallyand soon to be goat-milk, that way i know what'shappening to the animals and they're being treated correctly! I reallythought this topic interesting and the information put forward was verygood. Although i still won't be depending completely on my own animalsfor the food i eat, it helps a small amount. 

Ellie


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## Spring (Mar 15, 2006)

*Martina wrote:*


> To those who think they are not making a difference by whatthey eat or don't eat I have found a stat that says alot I think...*Everyday* 1,490,745 animals are saved by vegetarians and vegans.Consider the lives of the animals. Is it any less wrong to kill a cowthan your dog? They both have feelings and emotions, and it is visibleto see them go through this pain as they are being killed, harmed andstarved. Be a voice for the animals. You alone can save the lives of 95or moreanimals a year.
> 
> I agree eggs are verydisgusting,I can't believe I used to eat them, even hidden in ingredients yuck




What I don't get about the statement of saving 1, 490, 745 animals aday because aren't they still being slaughtered? They're still is ahuge demand of meat and they mostly increase their stock with the highdemand (correct me if I'm wrong) but I wouldn't think that they woulddecrease their stock just for the reason of some people don't eat it ?So correct me if I'm sounding ignorant, but aren't the meat just beingeaten by someone else or being thrown away?

I don't mind eating meat because that's just how I think ofthings.A lion doesn't feel bad for eating a Zebra becausethat's just how nature made them. It's like that with anything innature. I don't have a problem with eating meat, I just _hate_ theconditions the animals and situations they go through. I'm now only eateggs I get from a friend of my moms because herbirdsare treated good and I know there won't be aton of junk in them. They taste %100 better anyways!

I'm totally against animal cruelty but I can't jsut stop eating meat. Ijust wish they'd treat the animals with a little more respect.:?


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## m.e. (Mar 15, 2006)

You're right,that's a pretty hard statistic to sell. It would take an*enormous* number of people to suddenly stop eating meat beforethe livestock and poultry industries would even consider reducing thenumber of animals they raise. Vegetarians and vegans are, in a sense,washing their hands of any direct cruelty - they don't want topersonally be responsible for contributing to the overall factoryfarming economy. And I respect them for that.

But the animals are still being killed  Think about it: a growingfast food industry, pet food, worldwide demand for meat products. It'snot going to go away anytime soon. If you want to reform the meatindustry, becoming a vegetarian/vegan is just the first step. It willtake work, campaigning, and legislation to let the industry know thatwe don't want animals farmed this way. And yet...what would stop themfrom simply taking their business elsewhere (think global economy)?It's a business, it's driven by profits, and it _will_ have ademand somewhere.

Now that I'm on a roll, let me just point out another oft-quotedstatistic: we could feed the world's hungry if we were able to take theland and resources used to raise livestock, and divert it towardsagricultural means (growing wheat, rice, corn, etc.). With that, we'dhave more than enough food for everyone in the world.

Here's the deal: we*already*have enough more than enough food for everyone in the world. It'snot a matter have more food. It's politics. It's governments. It'sregimes that won't feed their people no matter how much food we throwat them. Simply having more food isn't going to solve the problem.

But enough of my morning ranting  If I have offended anyone, I amtruly sorry, that was not my intention. I just wanted to bring anotherperspective (sobering as it is) to the discussion.

I really do appreciate how respectful everyone has been. Thank you.


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## Lissa (Mar 15, 2006)

*



Spring wrote:

What I don't get about the statement of saving 1, 490, 745 animals aday because aren't they still being slaughtered? They're still is ahuge demand of meat and they mostly increase their stock with the highdemand (correct me if I'm wrong) but I wouldn't think that they woulddecrease their stock just for the reason of some people don't eat it ?So correct me if I'm sounding ignorant, but aren't the meat just beingeaten by someone else or being thrown away?

Click to expand...



Wow!! If everybody had that attitude, we'd have a HUGEproblem in this world. So we shouldn't give foodandmoney to the dying people in third-world countries becausethe problem is too big??? That's absurd. Everybodyplays their part.*


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## m.e. (Mar 15, 2006)

*Lissa wrote: *


> *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, I see what Spring is saying, but Ialso think you have a good point, Lissa. Edmund Burke said all that isnecessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. And soyou're right, we shouldn't just throw in the towel because the task isdaunting.

Here's what I think, though: while thereare many ways to work towards the goal, some are more effective thanothers. Using the example of third world countries that you gave, justwho do we give the money to? The government? Non-governmentalorganizations? Aid agencies? US or foreign? They all have their uses,and yet they all have their drawbacks. Just this morning NPR wasreporting on Oxfam's efforts in Indonesia towards assisting tsunamivictims. Thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of dollars, has beenmisappropriated. Lost. It didn't get to the people who neededit.

Money is not the solution. Reform is.

In case you're wondering how this tiesinto veganism, I assure you, I do have a point 

I am an activist by nature (can you tell?), and I understand the appeal of a boycott. But lets be honest: aboycott is easy. Not easy in the sense that you give up something(meat, eggs, dairy, Wal-Mart ) for a cause, but easy to usbecause that's where our responsibility ends. We tell ourselves we'vedone our duty.

And yet the machine grinds on whether we participate or not.

Vegetarians are a blip on the radar screenof the factory farming industry. You wanna know what really scaresthem? New legislation. New laws about humane slaughter and cleanfacilities and restrictions on antibiotics usage. That's where you needto hit. That's where the energy should be focussed. 

This is all, of course, just my humble opinion


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## Lissa (Mar 15, 2006)

It's not a boycott. It's about doingthe right thing. It's about not eating nasty deadcarcasses. :vomit:


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## m.e. (Mar 15, 2006)

I knowI was mostly responding to Martina's point that we shouldstop eating meat in order to save animal's lives, which spurred on thediscussion over the last few posts.

For what it's worth, it's been over threeweeks since I had meat, dairy, or eggs(yay, Lent!) and I feelgreat


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## Lissa (Mar 15, 2006)

Yay Good for you!


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## Linz_1987 (Mar 15, 2006)

I agree with you M.E.

If well all stopped eating meat, then the farmers will have no reasonto breed/keep cows,pigs etc so they will all become exstinct.

But to me, the reason for me being a vegetarian is just the thought ofeating an animal. Ofcourse I care about how they are treated, but thatis my main reason. 

I choose not to eat innocent animals. 

Its like some people dont own cars because of the pollution. Eventhough the population of cars on the roads is increasing dramaticalyevery day. I think global warming is going to happen muchsooner than we expect it to. 

This thread has lots of debates which are all sensible. Eitherwayit will changenothing but thats life.


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## alfie and angel (Mar 15, 2006)

This is true but consider if we neverbegan farming meat and dairy to the proportions we do now:cattle,poultry etc would never have been bred to the numbers we nowhave.They would have probably become extinct centuries ago asmany other ancient species have done, have evolved to species moresuited to the relatively few 'wild' spaces we have, or exist in small(relatively speaking) numbers for those who choose to keep themdomestically or for 'private' consumption.Human agency hascreated the situation that we have now. If everyone in the world turnedvegan overnight, these poor animals would suffer, of course they wouldbecause they already exist but this is an unrealistic hypotheticalsituation.If our population gradually turns vegan there will beless demand to breed NEW animals.Just as with the overpopulationof domestic stray or unwanted animals, it is human intervention thathas caused this situation and it is therefore only us who can doanything (however small or insignificant the contribution) to rectifyit.Good on you Linz! But remember, you might not change much but atleast you know that you're not contributing to the problem!EDITED tolessen my contribution to nonsensicaldiscourseRose*Linz_1987 wrote: *


> I agreewith you M.E.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Martina (Mar 19, 2006)

Did I directly say we should stop eating animalsto save theirlives? cause if I did I didn't meanithow you guystook it. the stat was kind of silly Iread it on a vegetarian website and thought it would help some of youguys get it better but apparently not.

Animals even farm animals would not go extinct, so you think if it wasnot for the people wanting them for money and food and usealmostevery last thing from them (leftovers for pet food,gelatin and crap) they would not be here anymore? In a way you wouldnot even notice those ones coming and going anyway, their are animalsanctuary's and good breeders and just plain pets. They would justnever go extinct. Nature has functioned quite well in the past withouthumans, and now we have humans to help them.

Vegans do make a difference, especiallyagainst nothing andsaying if we just treated them better, or lets change the laws insteadbecause I don't see a petition from your end to change how they aretreated, at least I try and I do practice what I preach. Sorry if thissounded mean


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## Sugar N Spice (Apr 7, 2006)

I've always been a vegetarian, well, since I was born......lol.:brownbunny


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## Linz_1987 (Jun 13, 2006)

I have been a vegetarian for about 5 months now. 

Recently I have started to feel really dizzy most of the time. I was wondering if its because I havent had any nutrition from the meat I use to have? 

I Dont know what food I need to eat if I dont eat meat.

I am allergic to cows milk so I am limited a bit. 

Any ideas?

I went to the doctors about 8 months ago because I kept getting dizzy, and that was because I wasnt eating proper meals. But now I still arent ever since I have become veggie. As my mum doesnt have time to cook seperate meals and she gives me what ever they have but without the meat. Which I think I shouldnt be doing as I need more nutritien. 

Thankyou for your help!


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## Pipp (Jun 13, 2006)

Linz_1987* wrote: *


> I have been a vegetarian for about 5 months now.
> 
> Recently I have started to feel really dizzy most of the time. I was wondering if its because I havent had any nutrition from the meat I use to have?
> 
> I Dont know what food I need to eat if I dont eat meat.


 Are you drinking a lot? Dehydration makes me very dizzy. 

I live on lentil soup. There's protein in the lentilsand nutrients in the veggies. ButIalso still butcher innocent (free run) eggs and eat skim milk cheese. 

Other meals off the top of my head... tofu stir fry, veggie hotdogs,veggie bacon and tomatosandwiches, cottage cheese/fruit salads,cheese and veggie casseroles, beans and veggie weiners... I think all those have protein. 

What do you eat? 

sas


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## Linz_1987 (Jun 13, 2006)

I do drink alot! Too much I think lol. 

But I eat pasta, cheese, vegetables, potatoes, veggie burgers etc and fruit. 

About three timesa week My mum cooks a meat dinner, but I just have the vegetables and the potatoeswithout the meat. Other days I wil have pasta, or veggie burgers and stuff. Lunch time - sandwiches with vegetarian fillings and fruit.

I heard that you are suppose to eatlots of nutsand beans?


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## Pipp (Jun 13, 2006)

You should have a protein (and a whole grain or some otherfiber) with every meal, really. 

Protein is lentils, beans, cheese, eggs, most veggie burger/hotdog/bacon products, soya beans, tofu.. (I think nuts, too, but too high fat for me, tho must confess, been dipping into that peanut butter). :eats

I avoid the starches -- pasta, potatoes, etc -- unless it's whole grain.

I always go for lots offruit and veggies. 



sas et al


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## ruka (Jun 13, 2006)

This is a bit of a personal question, but you don't need to answer it. Has your menstrual cycle changed in the last eight months since you started feeling dizzy? I noticed when I became irregular, I started to get dizzy and easily tired. I took a blood test and found that my blood had a low amount of iron. Since eating more spinach and iron-enriched foods, I've become a lot better. You might want to look into that.


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## ratmom (Jun 14, 2006)

I've been a vegetarian for 8 years now and don't drink milk or eat eggs. I did used to eat cheese and yogurt, but I recently went off dairy to see if it will help my allergies. I love soy milk and other soy products so it isn't a big deal for me, except for the ice cream of course lol. My hubby went veggie a few years ago and he had a hard transition, because of the iron. He was dizzy for a while until his body adjusted to it, but it's all about getting the right vitamins in you.


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## alfie and angel (Jun 14, 2006)

Hi Linz! I'm so pleased for you being veggie for 5months - that's really great! It sounds as though it could be an iron thing. People who transistion from eating red meat to being veggie without eating enough iron rich veg can often experience dizzyness. Vegetarian diets are often lower fat and lower cholesterol and even if the iron levels in your blood are a bit low, this can be easily sorted by eating more broccoli, spinach etc. If you don't like these or don't want to bother your mum, maybe look into getting an iron enriched vitamin tablet? Otherwise, you could offer to prepare your own meals but still eat with your family? It shouldn't take too much to stop the dizziness by just including more iron-rich protein foods but if it continues for more than a few days after making changes, I'd get it checked out just to be safe. I go dizzy several times a day (even before being veggie) because I'm blessed with low blood pressure that sometimes dips a little too low. Good luck linz - don't let people try tell you it's not possible to be healthy on a veggie diet - it is, and it isn't hard to do it!


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## Linz_1987 (Jun 14, 2006)

Thank you for all the help! I have soya milk instead of cows milk every day on my breakfast cereal, as I am allergic to cows milk. I am already taking calcium tablets because I dont drink milk. 

I had a blood test about 8 months ago because I was dizzy then and I was always tired. The results was I had very low sugar levels. But everything else was fine.

I have cheese in my sandwiches atleast every day, lol. Im sick of cheese sandwiches now!

Ive got a vegetarian recipe book. I will start cooking my own meals some nights a week. 

And i will try and convince my mum that some of the recipes are really nice, and they arent JUST for vegetarians! 

As I am doing a cooking course, i really should be practising cooking anyway!

Thankz for the help!


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## ratmom (Jun 14, 2006)

The one thing I wish they had here in the states is that vegetarian logo on stuff like they have in the UK. When I buy food at the grocery store from the UK and see that logo I know I don't have to look at the ingredients.


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## Linz_1987 (Jun 14, 2006)

Not all packages have the logo. I didnt know that the US didnt have the logo. They should do really.

I think they should put it on every package everywhere.


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## naturestee (Jun 14, 2006)

*ratmom wrote: *


> The one thing I wish they had here in the states is that vegetarian logo on stuff like they have in the UK. When I buy food at the grocery store from the UK and see that logo I know I don't have to look at the ingredients.


 Although some companies will put a small mark or notice on the packaging. For example, some of the packaged noodle stuff I buy for my work lunch has "vegan" typed in bold after the ingredients. Good to know, because otherwise you don't always know where those additives come from.

Linz, I had the same problem when I cut down on red meat in college. I do tend towards anemia, and have since middle school. Instead of taking several types of vitamin pills, try getting a multivitamin designed for women. It would have more calcium than the others, and some brands have higher iron levels too.

You can search around on the internet for vegetarian recipe collections too. They're free. And they can be tasty. I like to eat vegetarian meals at least several times a week and I've found some good ones online. Mmm, sweet potato and peanut stew (has garbanzo beans too!). *drools*


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## Linz_1987 (Jun 14, 2006)

Mmmm that sounds nice!

I made aubergine Lasagne from one of my veggie books. It was lush! I had never tryed aubergine before and I wasnt totally convinced that it would taste nice, but it was rly rly lovely!

I will look around for them tablets. We have a shop over here called Holland and Barrats and they sell any tablet you could imagine, also dried fruit and healthy sweets etc. Mmmm.


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## parsnipandtoffee (Jun 14, 2006)

I've beena vegetarian for 16 years, except not fully because I eat fish. When I was 12 I expressed a desire to be vegetarian and my mum said that if I promised to eat fish she'd help me to cut out 'meat with feet!' and I agreed and have eaten like that since. It's amazing how many more vegetarian things are available on the market now, I think my mum must have had a pretty hard time finding things for me all those years ago.

We get a lot of 'Quorn' products here in the UK, burgers, sausages etc nobody's mentioned them that I've seen, it's made from a type of fungus called mycoprotein do you get it in the US?

I don't ever force my ideas and opinions on others but if they ask I'm quite happy to have a discussion with them about it, although it does quite annoy me when people say 'I can't live without meat' because it's rubbish; the statement should be 'I don't want to live without meat'. Which is fine if that's what you choose.

I think that I'm actually more adventurous in my eating because I'm vegetarian, I've also noticed that my boyfriend and familiy will try a lot more things after they've made them for me or seen me eating them (ie my dad prefers vege lasagne to beef) so I guess that even though they all eat meat, just eating vegetarian for 2 or 3 meals each week has health benefits (For them and the animals!)

Robyn


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## ratmom (Jun 14, 2006)

There are a lot of obvious products that you know are already vegan/vegetarian like soy lunchmeat etc. It's when you buy other things like for instance a noodle mix and you think it's vegetarian, but you find that it has animal something in it. It just bugs the heck out of me how they try and hide animal products in food it's really disgusting. 

I don't want to start anything believe me, but to me you can't call yourself a vegetarian if you are eating any kind of flesh be it fish, chicken whatever.


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## parsnipandtoffee (Jun 16, 2006)

*ratmom wrote: *


> I don't want to start anything believe me, but to me you can't call yourself a vegetarian if you are eating any kind of flesh be it fish, chicken whatever.


 Apparently there is such a thing as a demi-vegetarian, they eat white meat, ie chicken and fish. I don't really have an issue with it, I eat what I want to eat and never preach to people about what they should or shouldn't eat so don't ever get frustrated with what people think, so that's OK, I agree that to be a proper vegi, you should be totally meat free.

I just find that it's easier to tell people that I'm vegetarian full stop otherwise they try and feed you all kinds of horrible things. Someone once did actually ask me it I could eat tinned hot dogs 'because everone knows they've got hardly any meat in anyway' I wouldn't go near a tinned hot dog with all it's offal and eyeball goodness it I was the world's biggest carnivore!


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## Martina (Jun 16, 2006)

Actually those people that say there is such thing as a almost vegetarian or vegan are a bunch of idiots, there totally is not such a thing. They are making the real ones look bad.

No such thing as a "Demi-Vegetarian"

There is 

*-Lacto-Ovo Vegetarian:* A Lacto-Ovo Vegetarian is someone who eats *dairy* products (like *milk* and *cheese*) as well as eggs and all plant-based foods (this is veggies, grains, fruits, etc.). 

-Vegetarian: Is someone who does not consume any meat/fish, But may eat eggs and dairy. You eat everything but fish and meat basically. So this is also known as Lacto-Ovo Vegetarian.

-*Lacto Vegetarian:* A Lacto Vegetarian is someone who eats *dairy products* and plant-based foods but not eggs. 

-*Ovo Vegetarian:* An Ovo Vegetarian is someone who eats *eggs and plant-based foods* but no dairy products

-*Vegan or *Pure* Vegetarian:* This is someone who does not eat any dairy products or eggs and only eats plant-based foods. You exclude all food of animal origin 

-Fruitarians: *The fruitarian diet consists of* *RAW fruit and seeds **ONLY*! Some don't eat all seeds though.

-Fishetartian: And yeah some people call themselves Fishetarians, they don't eat meat but eat fish. A lot of real vegetarians and vegans (like me)think this is stupid and they are acting like ahypocrite, why one and not the other? At least if you eat fish but not meat call your selffishetarian though because then you won't give a bad name to vegetarians, or call your self what you are an omnivore you choose, But please you are not a vegetarian.

I do not have a problem with people that eat meat/fish dairy/eggs just because I don't, but I do have a minor problem with people calling themselves what they are not, maybe because they did not know or something. There is not almost vegetarian or the right way the fact is people who eat any kind of meat/fish are not vegetarian and people who eat any meat/fish dairy/eggs *ever* is not a vegan. I did not come up with that, that is just how it is. 

If you eat meat of any kind white, dark, red, fish... whatever, you are *not* a vegetarian or a vegan you are a omnivore! Even if you only eat it on the weekends, I appreciate them trying but please do not call your self what you are not. That is what is putting a bad example onnon educated non veggie/vegan people because then they think vegetarians or vegans are hypocrites since the ones who call themselves that stilleat meat or fish occasionally. Vegetarians and vegans never eat meat/fish period, if you do you are not a veggie but keep trying maybe one day they can call themselves but not yet. :XI don't mean to sound like a raving lunatic but gee, come on people it is pretty obvious when one is or is not... trying to become one is a different story. If you don't eat meat/fish often but sometimes than say that, don't lie and say you are vegetarian/vegan Please?!?!


Sorry guys just had to snap and then repeat my self :?


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## Spring (Jun 16, 2006)

Oh wow! Never heard of a fruitarians! I wouldn't think this would be the best diet though, because with the high natural sugar, and high fat of seeds I don't think you would get a balanced diet, or I could be wrong!

Iread that if you eat fish and shellfish you are a pescetarian.


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## m.e. (Jun 16, 2006)

*Spring wrote: *


> Iread that if you eat fish and shellfish you are a pescetarian.


 
Yep, that's the proper term. Though frankly, with all the chemicals and such that's in fish I tend to avoid it :?


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## Martina (Jun 16, 2006)

You are right fruitariansare not usuallythat healthy. A lot of them only eat things that don't harm the plant, and some only eat fruit that has already fallen of the plant it self, and don't always eat root foods since it kills the plant.

Yeah sorry forgot the other word for the fish crap... my mind is gone by now.

but there is also...

-Pesco/Pollo Vegetarianism: Some people chose to avoid certain types of meat, like red meat but still eat white meatand fish.

-Flexitarianism- Flexitarians are mostly veggie but *occasionally* eat meat. Or some eat meat that is "killed in more humane conditions" 

-Freeganisim- They usually are concerned about the exploitation of animals, the earth and humans in the production of consumer goods.Some lean towards veganism,But eat anything they want. They make use of discarded commodities than to allow them go to consume landfill space. So usually don't care about the ingredients.

I think all these things are to wishy washy like they don't give a **** usuallyand are just using the '...tarian' or '...ganism' name to there advantage. They are omnivores and if you think about it omnivores are semi-vegetarian anyway because they eat vegetables, fruits, grains and so on like veggies but that does not make them veggie noteven semi. I mean heck we veggies/veganscouldbe called semi-omnivore since we eat alot of what omnivores eat vegetables, fruits, grains, wheat and alot of other good things, just not meat so we are semi? No that is what is wrong with all these names out there that don't mean a thing. I think it is all craziness... but I will try and calm down now, I amreally sorry if I soundmad or something I am not just a little more opinionated then usual :shock:


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## Spring (Jun 16, 2006)

I can loose my patience with a things like "fruitarian" (I totally agree with vegetarians/vegans, but fruitarians?!). It just sounds so stupid to me.


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## m.e. (Jun 17, 2006)

Martina, I totally understand your frustration. It's like, you tell people you're a vegetarian, and they say, "Oh, really? I am too." and then they eat a chicken salad sandwhich :rollseyes:


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## Martina (Jun 17, 2006)

OhI am so happy you guys understand, often people call me a radical for things like this. :?

Sorry for ranting andraving though guys


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## Spring (Jun 17, 2006)

No problem. Everyone has a chance to voice their opinion, espcially if it's about something that bothers you .


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## parsnipandtoffee (Jun 17, 2006)

*Martina wrote: *


> Actually those people that say there is such thing as a almost vegetarian or vegan are a bunch of idiots, there totally is not such a thing. They are making the real ones look bad.
> 
> No such thing as a "Demi-Vegetarian"


 

Ok so maybe you don't agree with me but I think it's a little harsh calling me an idiot! I don't remember being offensive to anyone!

I did fing the following website and took this quote from it, 

'Demi-vegetarians eat no or little meat but may eat fish. People who consume fish but no meat are often known as pescetarians.'

http://www.annecollins.com/diet-news/vegetarian-diets.htm



So there is such a thing as a demi vegetarian, but maybe in future I'll call my self a 'pescetarian' if I do I'm quite sure that popele will say 'what's one of those?' and I'll reply with 'a fish eating vegetarian' because that's what people understand and then every REAL vegetarian in the world will be offended again. Oh well you can't please all of the people all of the time!


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## Spring (Jun 17, 2006)

You do have a point parsnipandtoffee. You both have different opinions, and that's great, Ijust don't want this kind of thing to turn into a big huge agrument. I don't want anyone feeling like they're being attacked, so can we keep this as civil as possible?


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## parsnipandtoffee (Jun 17, 2006)

Thanks Spring!

I know some people are really passionate about vegetarianism (or lots of other things really) and so get annoyed if others don't agree or share their point of view. The way I saw it when I was 12 when I made the 'eat fish' deal with my mum was that if I ate vegetarian 6 days each week rather than 0 days each week then that was 6 less animals being harmed because of me.

Now I'm (considerably) older I suppose I'm just set into a routine, I don't ever fancy meat dishes (not including fish obviously) and so just carry on as I am.

I promise not to argue because I don't have an corner to fight, I do what I want to and let everyone else do their own thing. I do however believe that ifyou preach too much then it can turn others away from your cause because they feel under too much pressure to get it right or to change.


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## Martina (Jun 17, 2006)

I was not calling *you* an idiot, I think people in general are anyway, nothing against you specifically.

I don't disagree with your choice of foods, just to be clear, I just don't like the nonsense words people use. I don't think it is a "fish eating vegetarian" to meit is a not all meat eating omnivore or person.


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## Lissa (Jun 21, 2006)

I think it's funny that people call themselves vegetarians and still eat fish. I tell people I'm vegetarian and they say "Do you eat chicken or fish?" WELL DUH! No I don't! hahah. That doesn't make any sense. lol

Has anyone ever had a walnut burger? I LOVE walnut burgers! In fact, I think I will have one for lunch today.


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## Spring (Jun 21, 2006)

Walnut burger? I have a hard time imagining what they might look like .


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## Lissa (Jun 21, 2006)

*Spring wrote: *


> Walnut burger? I have a hard time imagining what they might look like .


 

They are soooooooooooo yummy! You must try one. Let me see if I can find a link.


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## Lissa (Jun 21, 2006)

Here we go. http://www.walnutburger.com/

This place isn't far from where I live. They have the BEST walnut burgers EVER!


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## Spring (Jun 21, 2006)

Ohhh cool! Thanks! I'm allergic to nuts.. so I'll have to pass on that one!  I'd love to try meat alternative products to see how they similar they are! I've heard the good ones taste very similar!


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## Linz_1987 (Jun 21, 2006)

But surely eating meat alternitives is defeating the object of becoming a vegetarain in the first place???? I wouldnt want my food to taste like meat at all. It would put me off eating it knowing it tastes exactly like meat.


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## Spring (Jun 21, 2006)

Oh, I'm not a vegetarian .


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## Lissa (Jun 21, 2006)

*Linz_1987 wrote: *


> But surely eating meat alternitives is defeating the object of becoming a vegetarain in the first place???? I wouldnt want my food to taste like meat at all. It would put me off eating it knowing it tastes exactly like meat.


 Walnut burgers don't taste anything like meat. Obviously if they did tastelike real meatI wouldn't be eating them. lol I do eat a lot ofmock chicken burgers and they taste pretty close to actual chicken. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, and it would is silly to suggest that it defeats the object of vegetarianism. The "object" of being vegetarian is not about taste, it's about beliefs.


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## Nadezhda (Jul 22, 2006)

I'm bringing this thread back from the dead!

I converted to veganism a while ago, I'm never looking back. The cruel conditions that animals are put through to make meat, milk, and eggs, is disgusting, and would make me never look back.

I am way healthier than I used to be too! Despite what I previously thought, veganism is less expensive for me that omnivorism was! Yay.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 22, 2006)

I just recently stopped eating meat but after looking into the horrendous conditions of dairy cows I feel I should also stop dairy products. This is much harder for me . I can drink soy milk and give up cheese but my weakness is the dairy products used in desserts like ice cream, cake, and even candy like milk chocolate. I am continuing to educate myself on veganism. I ,unlike some others, who give up animal products am doing it not because I don't feel that some animals should be used for human food but ONLY because of the horrific conditions that animals on large scale farms live in. If an animal on a small family farm was killed humanely I would eat the meat. Also I would appreciate it if someone knows of cruelty free hair coloring that is not real expensive as I am also trying to buy at least some products that are not tested on animals. Thanks


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## Spring (Jul 22, 2006)

Way to go guys!

I guess turning veg or vegan right now I don't feel comfortable with doing, but maybe in the near future. I need time to think about things, especially something that's going to affect me in day to day life. 

I'm not sure if there is a hair colouring product that isn't tested? I don't colour my hair, but you could maybe phone the product number on the back of the box and ask if they do or don't? Orthat herbal essence brand? I think that's the one that has all natural ingreidents (Or is that shampoo..?). I hope you find something!

I watched an episode of this show called wife swap, and it made me so angry to watch! One family washunters and ate meat ect. but the other family was strong vegan (they didn't even eat cooked food for some reason) and protested with peta ect. The ladies BOTH made the opposite family follow there beliefson what they should or shouldn't eat. I had to turn it because of how each woman was trying to convert each other. I guess that's reality tv for you! You shouldn't be allowed to make someone be something or do something, that's why it made me so angry!


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## Maureen Las (Jul 22, 2006)

The reason that I am doing this now is that my best friend and her daughter just left from visiting me. Neither one of them eat meat so when we go out to eat they are always careful what they order. They don't care whether I eat meat or not. They never said a thing to me about changing. This visit I started to ask some questions etc. and after they left I made myself go on the Peta site and watch videos of farm animals owned by large companies. That pretty much did it for me. I really like meat and I think it is in the normal scheme of things for humans to eat it. I am only not eating it because of how terrible the companies treat the animals and for no health reason whatsoever. I am already thin and actually since I stopped eating meat I really don't feel as well as when I ate it. So there. I am not a fanatic at all.


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## Spring (Jul 22, 2006)

I know,there's so many restrictions. You can't even chew gum or eat jello, skittles, ect because of the gelatin in them. I give you credit for watching the videos, I jsut couldn't. Even if I did turn vegetarian, I'd still feel helpless to the situation, and watching the pain would just tear me apart.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 23, 2006)

I'm not going to do this thing 100%..I would chew gum and as for jello I don't like it anyway. I'm just going to try to do the best that I can without suffering too much.


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## Nadezhda (Jul 23, 2006)

Some gelatin can come from seaweed, I think it may be called agar agar, unfortunately you can't always tell which.

I went vegan to see if it would help my IBS, and now that it has, I'm going to stay this way because of the cruel conditions animals are put through.

I don't believe that anyone should drink cows milk. Cow's milk is the perfect food - for baby calves who gain like 300 pounds in 13 months. No other animal other than humans drink another animals milk. Ignoring the fact that milk tends to leech calcium rather than give it, and ignoring that milk isn't easily digested, and ignoring that the pus levels in milk in North America are considered dangerously high in other continents, milk cows are artificially inseminated, literally raped, in order to keep an unatural flow of milk going year round. A normally 25 (or so?) years of life is usually cut by slaughter by 3 - 5 years. 

As for eggs and meat, humans were not originally hunters who ate some berries sometimes. Humans were scavengers! We'd eat whatever we could find. Our digestion systems and our teeth are much more related to herbivores.
Our ancient ancestors, chimpanzees (I think... boy I'm tired) have been shown to be herbivores who can occasionally gang up and eat lower species of monkies, not often though, and not to the gross extreme that is the S.A.D. (Standard American Diet)

Anyways, end rant. I don't want to be too preachy, but the horrors that animals are put through, and the horrible lies the meat industry tells consumers (the myth of 'free-range' and 'cageless' chickens for example) just make me sick. I'm turning into such a fundamentalist vegan....


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jul 23, 2006)

IMO, I hate PETA. They take things too far. If they got things their way, none of us would have out beloved pet rabbits. And they are known to over exaggerate and even create false evidence on the matter to get what they want. I will never support them.

I am, however, semi vegetarian. I only eat chicken, turkey, and eggsbecause I would literally put my health at risk if I didn't. I'm a rather picky eater and I would not get the protein and other nutrients present in meat to remain healthy. I would be anemic without eating some meat.

I don't have an issue with others eating meat, it's the circle of life and some people require the meats nutrients. The only issue I have is with animals raised as pets that are used as meat. I would hate to know that an animal that once knew love would be someone's dinner.

I don't agree that our teeth are necessarily like a herbaviours. A herbaviours teeth constantly grow to accomodate it while ours do not.


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## Nadezhda (Jul 23, 2006)

Carnivore jaws are long and narrow, with sharp teeth made to rip flesh. They are not made to chew, as all the digestion happens in the stomache and short intestines so that parasites in the meat do not overrun the animal. Their jaws only move up and down.

Herbivore jaws are made to both chomp off hard vegetables, and at the back, grind up the food as part of the digestion happens in the mouth, as well as in our long digestion systems (typical of herbivores). Herbivore jaws are made to chomp off food in an up and down motion, as well as chew it in a slightly side-to-side movement.

Humans have herbivore jaws. If you want to argue that we have 'canines', then take a look at pictures of dog canines, or any other mainly carnivore animals canines. 

I'm not saying that humans are only made to eat non-meats... We originated as scavengers. I'm just saying that we are made for more plants than meat. Afterall, rotting meat is toxic to the colon, and many people, even if they don't admit it or know it, do not have proper bowel movements.

I disagree that some people need meat for their protein. If you were a vegan and lived on potato chips and coca-cola, I could see you being sick and protein deprived. Eating a variety of vegetables and grains is an easy enough way to get protein. Variety doesn't mean a huge plateful of greens, it's as simple as pea's and carrots. With grains, many of them have almost-complete proteins. Try some quinoa!
This is ignoring beans. Beans are protein power-houses!


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## Spring (Jul 23, 2006)

I know, I strongly disagree with Peta. After finding out that theyput down I think 85% of the animals they want to rehome, makes me angry. They _cannot _say that killing animals is wrong if they are doing it aswell because they can't find the poor animals homes. After I found out they euthanise animals, I just think they are hypocrits. They are too forcey as well. Some of their ideas I can agree with, but so much of it I think is just bizzare. They need to down grade their campaigns. If someone wants to become vegan ect. or help out, that's fine, but they shouldn't be allowed to verbally force their opinions at you. 

Even if I did go vegan, I'd still eat eggs (But then again, I wouldn't be vegan). I get them from a friend of ours, and her chickens are treated like people here treat their buns!


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## Maureen Las (Jul 23, 2006)

Human beings are omnivores. If they want to eat meat their bodies are well suited to handle it (Are eskimos who depend on seal meat supposed to grow a garden?) They are also herbivores as their bodies are well suited in the digestion of plant material. They can choose to not eat meat but it is a choice.


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## Lissa (Jul 24, 2006)

Congratulations on becoming cruelty free.  By the way, I switched from Morningstar Farms to Smart Menu. Their burgers are much more tastier and CHEAPER.


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## Nadezhda (Jul 24, 2006)

There isn't too much choice here. We have two groceries, Save-on-Foods and Safeway! At Save-on, I've gotten Amy's burgers, and they are delicous. If I have time today, I'll check Safeway for vegan goodies, and keep 'Smart Menu' in mind  I need to check around town anyway, I can't find any quinoa at save-on! Thanks for the tip!


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## Lissa (Jul 25, 2006)

I eat one of these almost every night. Mmmm.


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## Eve (Apr 25, 2007)

I'm having a bit of a moral dilema here. 

I have switched to a vegetarian diet for the past 6 months, because personally I feel really bad about eating meat. 

However I am anemic and my doctor has told me that being on avegetarian diet is making me sick. I have been feeling quite weak, havegone paleand am losing weight (which is bad for me as I amalreadytoo skinny). 

Ialready takedaily supplements andam trying toeat vegetables rich in iron. 

So now it looks like I'm going to have toadd some meat to mydiet again, only the thought of that is making me feel really uneasy.


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## JadeIcing (Apr 25, 2007)

I read through this I understand the arguments, the reasons and so on. I personally don't eat much meat at all.

Honestly I eat some ham very rare for me to. Same with steak.I mean literally months will go by. Seafood I only eat clams. I do eata bit of chicken, and I had chickens as pets.:?Sometimes all my stomach is plain chicken breast. I sufferfrom chronic migraines to the point I get physically ill. 


Thanks to Maherwoman I found RiceMilk. I do love cheese. Mac and cheese freak here.

I don't eat eggs but I do use stuff cooked with eggs. Cakes and that is also not often. 

I don't think I could change my diet much. I already am very limited towhat I can eat. My stomach is odd and can be set off by the slightestchange in diet. It is rare for me to try anything new. I have one thingthat I can eat at every place I go. No joke I have been known to sit ata restaurant and not eat because I am scared of what my reaction willbe. Sometimes sitting there 2-3 hours not eatting.


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## Eve (Apr 28, 2007)

Thank you so much for that link m.e.,itis really helpful!I am going tomakesome changes to my diet based on that and see how I go. 

I will definately try to find blackstrap molasses too, it soundsgreat.

Thanks again! :bunnydance:


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## Echo (Apr 28, 2007)

I tried to be a vegetarian, mostly because I strongly disagree with slaughter methods and how the animals are cruelly raised.

It didnt last too long as I didnt like quorn and I lost a bit of weight, and im slim build so weight loss is noticeable.

Sonow I just wont eat pork, mutton, beef etc.

I'll eat chicken though and only very occasionally have bacon from mylocal butcher, who raises the animals himself out in fields so I knowthey at least have a life before death.

I've been finding lately though that my appetite goes when im trying toeat chicken.. whenever I come across a vein or something.. so might trythe veggie thing again soon :shock:


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## Maureen Las (May 3, 2007)

Examine the reasons that you are not eatinganimals products..is it really for the animals and environment? or isit something that makes one feel"better or superior" than onewho is eating meat... or is it for multiple reasons including helpinganimals.
I have met alltypes of people.

If one does it part of the timethey are still providing lessmoney to the meat industry and THAT IS DOING A LOT. If everyone cutback a little it would decrease profits by large corporationsdrastically.
It doesn't have to be all or nothing

Better to eat meat occasionally and soy products most of the time thanto give up because you can't do it perfectly and can't call yourself aspecific name.

A name is only something we call ourselves..

Animals can still be helped by cutting back on meat products ...even if it isn't done "perfectly"


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## m.e. (May 4, 2007)

Good word, angieluv.

Echo, I suggest really reading up on vegetarianism/veganism, includingthe critics, and if you decide to give up meat and other animalproducts then you'll have the strength of conviction on your side. ButI'd say, don't do it until you feel completely ready. You'll have amuch better chance of sticking with it if you have a solid plan.


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## rabbit_whisperer (May 4, 2007)

I've been Vegan for almost a year ^-^ feels great.

(I never knew cows were raped )

colors There's something called 'morning star', they make veganfood and it's pretty good. Another vegan producer even makes Vegan ribsand corndogs. (Sorry if i ramble)


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## undergunfire (May 5, 2007)

I hardly ever eat meat, but I do drink a lot of milk and eat a lot of cheese.

I live off of Morning Star foods and other "fake meat" foods. I LOOOVEspicey black bean burgers.....no meat and even better tasting than meat!

Occasionally I will eat a ham sub at work if I am starving. That is about once or twice a week.

That's the only time I eat any meat.





_- Amy (Mallory, Morgan, and Madilyn-Mae) :hearts_


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## Maureen Las (May 5, 2007)

I also live off Morningstar , drink soy milk butdo eat products made from eggs and milk like desserts which I won'tgive up....but very very infrequently I eat a hot dog. I alsoeat fish but only when I eat out if their is not much else to order

I also buy a lot of cruelty free products..but not entirely



So I do some but not perfectly and thats OK


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## BEAUKEZRA (May 5, 2007)

I've been a vegetarian for 13 years. I don't eatany meat but I still eat dairy. It's so hard to cut it out completely.My husband is a meat eater so we spend a lot of money on groceries. Idon't buy any products that have been tested on animals and I push myhusband to do the same but unfortunately he never seems to check whenhe buys things (cleaners etc).

I grew up eating meat but now when I look at hamburger or anything allI see is animal flesh not food. I don't miss it. I feel that I'm doingmy part as small as it may be. I just don't agree with the conditionsin which the poor animals are kept. I want to cry when I think aboutthe suffering they must endure.


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## Echo (May 6, 2007)

Hi m.e., I am still often reading up about it asI do want to be a vegetarian someday, I just need to figure out firstnew foods that I like and increase my dietary likes basically, so thatI wont lose so much weight when I try again, especially since my campusdoesnt serve ANY veg food. You can just about get a side plate of salad.

My reasons for wanting to stop meat eating is really because when I seea slab of meat I dont see a slab of meat, I see the animal wasthatcruelly raised and slaughtered, and it makes me angry howthy are treated.I'm really against all forms of animalcruelty, regardless of if it is 'to feed the nation' or just for fun.Grain cropscan feed a lot more people than a field of cowsanyways since the cows eat so much.
It makes me mad to hear people talk of food animals as just here tofeed us, like they talk about horses as just here to serve us. 

I'm hoping to get into animal conservation when im older, whenI get my zoology degree i'll be a step closer.

It took a lot for me to have to go back eating chicken, but I needed to just get my weight up before trying to do it properly.
I still hate the fact I eat it, but hoping someday soon I caneventually that that out too, like I did basically every other meat.

I dont think ive had any meatbut chicken meat since december.. gonna keep that up till I cut that out too.

I got a dig from my mum yesterday when I came in and saw them alleating and was like 'where is my dinner?' And she said 'oh but you wonteat steak remember?' :?

I've offended more than 1 relative by declining their meals and getstrange looks since both sides of my family have some farming roots,and animalsto the older relatives especially can be good petsbut mainly food etc.
Even if their dogs or whatever get ill the attitude is still mostly ohwell its just a dog, and ive really had to push many of them to bringtheir dogs to the vet.
Me and one my my aunts are the opposite and complete nuts about animals and our pets.
My granny was born into a small world where if the dog had puppies, thecat had kittens it was perfectly fine to drown them in a bucket as theywere unwanted, since a vet was unheard of, at least for smaller animals.
As a child she was forced to kill chickens and turkeys and i'm reallyglad she's grown up with the world and now loves animals to bits, andis letting me bring her old dog to the vet this week for a checkup,while I know similar relatives wouldnt spare the money.

Anways, i'm still trying to findavailable meat alternatives like quorn before I make the move.
Took me ages just to find a shop that stocked quorn.

It would be so much easier to switch if there was replacement products. 
That is maily how I lost the weight, since I cut out my main diet and could find very little to substitute in.


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## ~BunBuns~ (May 6, 2007)

want to be a vegetarian but its kindof nesscary that you eat it. And i have no say. But i usually eatsalads. occasionally meat.


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