# Resolved! Dotty looking better



## mouse_chalk (Feb 9, 2009)

Soo...  Dotty was spayed  on Thursday. She came round really well, was eating loads within a few hours, pooping, etc.

She had a post-op check at the vets on Saturday who said her incision was looking great

She's been getting daily doses of Metacam

But, last night she stopped eating. Her poops have gotten really small, although not dried? The consistency of normal poo?:?

She didn't touch much of her dinner last night, but she did eat some carrot tops that I hand-fed her. Steve syringed her 20mls of water as a precation, which she took really willingly. 

She's barely touched her breakfast this morning at all, although she did take a little bit more water from me, but she's not drinking it out of the bowl. :?

She is still acting quite alert- she's sat by Steve's feet in the office, asking for noserubs, etc etc, but she's not galloping up and down the hallway or anything

The incision still looks ok to me, although I'm far from an expert. Feels a bit warm to the touch but that could also be cos it's her skin and that's warm anyway?

ANYWAY, long story short, she has a vets appointment at 11.45. It's 10.30am here now. I'm hoping that they will up her Metacam dose... 


Should I give her some critical care or something before we go?


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## DeniseJP (Feb 9, 2009)

Good luck Jen - I hope Dotty is feeling better after her visit to the veterinarian...and I am hoping she does not have a problem with GI stasis (it happens in people and horses after surgery).

:hugsquish:

Denise


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## Flashy (Feb 9, 2009)

Aw, what is she like. It might be worth giving her a snugglesafe as an option, just incase she feels cold.

Just remember to stay calm because she will pick up on if you are stressed and it will make it worse.

As a side note, there is the possibility this isn't related to the spay, unlikely, yes, but still a possibility, so just bear that in mind at the vets too.


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## Flashy (Feb 9, 2009)

Just a thought, but if she has been having more fresh than usual to aid her recovery, could she have gas or similar due to the larger amounts of fresh?


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 9, 2009)

Jen, definitely get her checked, but around here we have a saying that the "third day is the worst" after surgery or injury. I found it's very true - maybe something to do with the healing process? or just her body adjusting?

Regardless, I sure hope she gets back to normal now! :hug:


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## irishlops (Feb 9, 2009)

if its warm. (the cut i mean)itr might mean an infection...
but might not be the case..
good luuck:heartbeat:


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## JadeIcing (Feb 9, 2009)

Give her a kiss from me.


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## Flashy (Feb 9, 2009)

How did it go?


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## Becca (Feb 9, 2009)

I can't give any helpful information so I hope shes okay  Give her an extra nose rub


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## slavetoabunny (Feb 9, 2009)

Poor Dotty. I'll be keeping your sweet girl in my thoughts. Let us know how her appointment goes.


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 9, 2009)

Aww thanks everyone 

Well the vet gave her the metacam via injection (which I think is more effective than orally, or am I wrong?), gave us Fibreplex to give her, and told us to keep her syringed with fluids, critical care, baby food, etc.

He didn't increase her metacam dose :grumpy: He was reluctant to because of the effect that it can have on the kidneys and stomach, specially on an empty stomach. I am not sure whether that's a good thing or not. I'm also not sure whether the dose she's getting is small or not now... :?

Anyway, we've given her 20mls of baby food mixed with water, and another 20mls of water. I have critical care soaking now to give her in a bit. She had the fibreplex as well which she LOVED lol...

She's very perky and alert, not sitting hunched up or anything, but just doesn't want to eat?

Flashy, I had thought about the possibility of it being something other than her spay too, but not sure what, lol. Her teeth are all perfectly fine- have been checked recently... He said the inciscion site looks good- no swelling or indication of infection...


She's not even eating hay at the moment...

:?


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 9, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> Just a thought, but if she has been having more fresh than usual to aid her recovery, could she have gas or similar due to the larger amounts of fresh?


I did think that, but it's not really that much more than usual. More carrot tops and herbs than usual, but she's been eating those in place of romaine and greens, because they seem to be her favourite lol. She hasn't been eating that many pellets though, and she hasn't had hay for a while, so that may be it.

Simeticone can't hurt right, if it's not gas? Is it worth giving her some just in case you think?


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 9, 2009)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> Jen, definitely get her checked, but around here we have a saying that the "third day is the worst" after surgery or injury. I found it's very true - maybe something to do with the healing process? or just her body adjusting?
> 
> Regardless, I sure hope she gets back to normal now! :hug:


Sorry for the 3rd post in a row- I forgot to reply to these... replies!

I was thinking that too- and the vet did say that it could be a sort of 'hangover' from the aneasthetic, and that he doesn't find it that uncommon in rabbits sometimes, when they've been eating happily before.


One thing I did like about him is not once did he mention metaclopromide! Usually I find vets are so quick to jump in with that. I was dreading coming back and telling you guys she'd had some lol


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## Flashy (Feb 9, 2009)

Poor Dotty. I wonder what's going on for her. Did the vet feel her internally as well as look at her wound? The only reason I ask was that when Summer was spayed she had a tiny wound and obviously a big uterus coming out of a tiny wound can cause some irritation and on the 4th/5th day Summer went right downhill and it turned out she had irritation inside from the internal stitches. We spent a week pulling her away from stasis. 

Another thought might be cystitis. From what I can work out, when a uterus is pulled through a small space it can disrupt the other internal organs in the 'tugging' and can catch and disrupt the bladder. Maybe this has happened with her?

I'm only mentioning these things because you said that her spay woudn was smaller than your other buns ones were, despite her being a bigger bun.


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 9, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> Poor Dotty. I wonder what's going on for her. Did the vet feel her internally as well as look at her wound? The only reason I ask was that when Summer was spayed she had a tiny wound and obviously a big uterus coming out of a tiny wound can cause some irritation and on the 4th/5th day Summer went right downhill and it turned out she had irritation inside from the internal stitches. We spent a week pulling her away from stasis.
> 
> Another thought might be cystitis. From what I can work out, when a uterus is pulled through a small space it can disrupt the other internal organs in the 'tugging' and can catch and disrupt the bladder. Maybe this has happened with her?
> 
> I'm only mentioning these things because you said that her spay woudn was smaller than your other buns ones were, despite her being a bigger bun.



He did feel her stomach quite a bit and said it seemed ok, but I guess that sort of thing could be easily missed. I'll keep a close eye on it for any swelling or anything when I'm feeding her. She's not overly grooming it or anything either.

What would symptoms of cystitis be? She's peeing still, although less because she's drinking less I'd imagine. I don't know if it's the same as with humans where you go all the time lol- she's definitely not doing that...

The wound is about 4 inches long maybe? Thinking about it, I'm not sure if it just looks smaller to me because when the other girls were spayed, the wound took up more of the length of their underside, just because they are so small in comparison lol. Although supposedly the vet that does the surgery is known for being very neat and having small op sites. :?


I didn't mind that vet today, but I think I would have felt better seeing Clara. I seem to remember she doesn't consult on Mondays though. We'll be going back to see her tomorrow if she isn't better!


I knew I shouldn't have been telling you all how well she was doing! I must have jinxed it lol...


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## JimD (Feb 9, 2009)

*mouse_chalk wrote: *


> I was thinking that too- and the vet did say that it could be a sort of 'hangover' from the aneasthetic, and that he doesn't find it that uncommon in rabbits sometimes, when they've been eating happily before.



:yeahthat:
Sounds like Chippy's recovery.

The first 24 hours she was pretty much out of it.
The second day she was eating and drinking....less than normal, though.
And the 3rd day she wasn't interested in eating/drinking much at all.
It took a couple more days for her to start eating and drinking normally.

The vet told me it was common after-effects from the anaesthesia.


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 9, 2009)

*JimD wrote: *


> *mouse_chalk wrote: *
> 
> 
> > I was thinking that too- and the vet did say that it could be a sort of 'hangover' from the aneasthetic, and that he doesn't find it that uncommon in rabbits sometimes, when they've been eating happily before.
> ...



I thought you had one that did that but I couldn't remember who it was! You were so worried on that third day! 

I think I've heard it before from people with girls getting spayed too! 

Jen, I sure hope she comes around quickly. Poor thing!


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## Maureen Las (Feb 9, 2009)

I'm sure that she'll come around soon after all your good care...


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 9, 2009)

Thank you guys!

I've been in and out of the forum all day, I had to go to the human doctor just now, although he did something semi-productive about my dizziness, but that's a whole other post.

She's pretty much the same as earlier- she's still pooping lots of the tiny poops, but I think it's better than nothing at least- I really don't want them to stop. 

We've given her another 10ml of water, 10ml of baby food (watered down a bit) and 10ml of critical care, and some more Fibreplex. She takes the stuff quite well from the syringe, she doesn't struggle as much as Chalk would which is lucky. Although I have to hold her on her back to do it, and she keeps trancing out instead lol so we have to wake her up again- that's not good for her to swallow! At any other time I would love a tranced bunny that I could clip nails, etc etc :rollseyes


Re. the critical care- I've been mixing it with a bit of water, then leaving it to soak for a while. It absorbs a ton of water, so then I'm adding a bit more to make it easier to get into a syringe. Is this right? I don't know if it's maybe too watery but I can't get it into the syringe otherwise lol...


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## kherrmann3 (Feb 9, 2009)

I don't have much to add to the topic. I will say that I wish Dotty good luck and a speedy recovery! :clover:


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## Pipp (Feb 9, 2009)

No problem with watery, the more hydration the better, really. 

I'm a bit surprised that more Metacam was given, I was half-expecting her to be taken off of it. 

When Pipp had surgery and was on Metacam, her urine was very concentrated and I noticed she was straining to pee and getting lethargic. Luckily I noticed it right away and realized that she was dehydrated and thus the Metacam was a big problem. I took her off of it, filled her full of liquids and it cleared up right away, hopefully with no kidney damage. 

I'm not sure why Dotty would be in more pain on day five, although I agree that days two and three are worse than one. 

sas :expressionless


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 9, 2009)

*Pipp wrote: *


> No problem with watery, the more hydration the better, really.
> 
> I'm a bit surprised that more Metacam was given, I was half-expecting her to be taken off of it.
> 
> ...


Really? I hadn't thought of it that way. I kind of linked the surgery and the not eating and came up with pain, without really considering that... It would make sense as well considering that she had been ok up until then. I've been thinking so much about how we didn't want her to be in pain that really hadn't occured to me :headsmack

I do have some good news though- she ate some basil!! Just one very leafy stem's worth, but at least it's something?

We'll keep giving her more fluids tonight, as much as she will take. I guess we'll be calling the vets in the morning if she's not better by then.... If we can make it lol- it's snowing very hard right now! :shock:


Thank you sas!


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## naturestee (Feb 9, 2009)

Basil is good for the tummy too, so if you can get her to eat more it would be great. Most of the mint-family herbs are good for tummy aches.

I usually end up adding at least double the amount of water for Critical Care. The normal amount is so dry and thick, I only use that for making little mush balls for them to eat on their own. Nothing wrong with addingmore water since she needs the fluids anyway.


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 9, 2009)

*naturestee wrote: *


> Basil is good for the tummy too, so if you can get her to eat more it would be great. Most of the mint-family herbs are good for tummy aches.
> 
> I usually end up adding at least double the amount of water for Critical Care. The normal amount is so dry and thick, I only use that for making little mush balls for them to eat on their own. Nothing wrong with addingmore water since she needs the fluids anyway.


Basil is good for the tummy? Well I'm learning lots today lol! I never knew that...

Steve had it laid in the bowls for the other pairs of bunnies, and left them in the kitchen while he took Dotty's up. Then when she ate a bit he came back down and swapped their Basil out lol  We're low so we'll have to stock up tomorrow....


She wouldn't eat any more though 

That's good about the critical care. there's no way I could get it into a syringe if I didn't add loads more water. It was doing that bungee thing..... :shock: I'd already cut the end off, and squirted who knows how much at the tiles in the bathroom! I was worried that too much water would sort of wash away the nutrients or something, but I could swear I read a post in the infirmary a while ago, can't remember who by, that said that critical care absorbs a lot of moisture so to soak it for a while so it doesn't absorb moisture in the gut? I tried looking for it earlier but I couldn't remember for the life of me which thread it was in lol...


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## Sabine (Feb 9, 2009)

Only just saw the thread now. So sorry to hear Dotty had a set back in her recovery.Have no great advice to dispense just virtual hugs and noserubs. Hope she'll get better soon


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## Elf Mommy (Feb 9, 2009)

You both are in my thoughts!!!


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## krsbunny (Feb 9, 2009)

Another thing you might offer *if you have a safe source for it* is fresh grass. Be sure it has not been chemically treated (at least recently) and that there has been ample rain since any chemical treatment to wash awayanything that has not been absorbed into the soil. Grass should be washed immediately before feeding (either by you or Mother Nature). 

Fresh grass is recommended in Harcourt-Brown's Textbook of Rabbit Medicine as one of the best sources of both digestable and indigestable fiber and as one of the first things most rabbits will gravitate toward eating. 

LastNovember when my Apollo was slower than Iliked abouteating after amolar trim, I decided to try this. Although we do have a lawn service, they had left a note about three weeks earlier stating that they couldn't apply their treatment because of all the leaves on the ground ... and we had gotten some good rains since then. I went out in the pouring rain and picked the most tender rain-soaked grass I could find. Apollo gobbled it down ... and shortly after began munching hay.

May I ask why the aversion to using metoclopromide? Dr. Allan has me give it to rabbits who bounce back slowly after anesthesia (we know who those are), in part for its anti-nausea properties. I have found the injectable to be significantly more effective than the oral form. We generally do twice a day for a couple of days, then once a day for a couple of days.

Kathy Smith


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## DeniseJP (Feb 9, 2009)

Oh, I hope Dotty continues to eat for you...give her a hug from me!

Denise


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## Maureen Las (Feb 9, 2009)

Most of us feel that metoclopromide and cisapride are a 'crap shoot" 

Things may go well but there is a risk 

We encourage natural methods to encourage elimination particulary after a surgery.
(increased hydration, pain meds. exercise as tolerated, tummy massages as tolerated, tasty greens etc )

Ihave read (cannot quote source off the top) that not all GI obstructions are able to bevisiulizedupon x-ray and because ofthis there is always the potential ofreglan speeding the emptying of the stomach with increased peristalsisand subsequent rupture of the stomach from a blockage. One of our members had her rabbit die afterbeing given a dose of reglan although she had been x-rayed 

Randy feels it is painful to the rabbit and has said that he would never never use those drugs. he has never elaborated on his experiences but I believe that he has developed this attitude for a good reason.
Another one of our members has a rabbit that needs it all the time and continually needs to be weaned off it only to need it again. I do believe that it can be addictive (like laxative use)

The CNS affects are also considered a concern. It can cause tardive dyskinesia in humans 

I guess that we discourage use of both motility drugs because of negative experiences with the drugs that we have had ourselves or stories of negative experiences from others..

Cisapride has been removed off the market for humans ( although I believe that it is because it interacts poorly with many other drugs commonly prescribed)although cisapide is considered the less dangerous of the 2. I have read that even its use in horses at this point is being scrutinized 

All of us know vets that precribe it and even vets that do notdo x-rays initially before prescribing it.

We also discourage the use of petroleum products like laxatone, petromalt etc.

I would use cisapride if nothing else helped but I would have to try everything else before I would use it without fear.


Maureen


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## naturestee (Feb 9, 2009)

My favorite of my two rabbit vets does not use gut motility drugs unless he feels there is no other option. He's seen just as much bad as good come from it, thinks they're over used, and suspects they cause some pain. If the gut seems to be moving at all he prefers not to use them.Hehas prescribed them for me twice- once in acase of sudden, complete gut shutdown (rabbit died that nightand had bled some from her anus, her prognosis had been very very poor, no necropsy done).The other was for my chronicly ill orphan bun who was a few weeks old at the time. An xray showed that her cecum wasn't emptying properly and the motility drugs fixed the problem and there hasn't been a recurrence. 

My other vet likes to prescribe gut motility drugs for any GI slowdown but I generally refuse when they're still pooping some.

I hadn't thought of fresh grass as I'm still deep in snow, but that was how we got baby Dora to eat willingly when recovering from that first near-deadly case of enteritis. She even ate grass during the one hour drive to the vet. Her mouth was too little to eat pellets and she wasn'tvery interested in her milk replacement.


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## Luvmyzoocrew (Feb 9, 2009)

i hope she comes around for you Jen


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## krsbunny (Feb 9, 2009)

Interesting <gr> I have definitely heard about the risks of the motility drugs and stronglyagree caution is required when they are used. I insist on x-rays before using them except in cases where teeth or ear problems isidentified as the primary cause for "loss of appetite."Ihave also heard from a couple of vets(and have had the experience with one of my buns) that some obstructions are "functional" rather than physical (same symptoms, but no physical obstruction found surgically).

After dentals, if my guys come home and start eating right awayand continue the next day I don't give meds. If they are slow to start eating again, we treat for both pain and nausea (metoclopromide injections). Usually a dayor two is all that is required. 

I have also had personal experience with a bunny (Murray) becoming "dependent" on these drugs, so I am much more cautious than I used to be about both starting them and using them long term. OTOH, I can't imagine not having metoclopromide (Banamine too) on hand and using them (under my vet's supervision, of course).

Kathy Smith


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## ra7751 (Feb 10, 2009)

Umm..I suspect your primary problem is pain....third days are the worst. Metacam is better than nothing but spays should include a narcotic aspect. Buprenorphine is by far the best. I usually insist on that drug for at least 3 days and up to 5....never had any problem whatsoever.

And I saw the naughty words....metoclopramide and cisapride and the like. There is no possibility of those drugs ever being used on any of my rabbits....and if any vet were to suggest it, we would be headed toward the door. Fortunately, none of my vets feel they are appropriate for rabbits and neither do I. I have probably treated tougher gut problems than most vets.....resolved them all without those drugs.

In my non-professional opinion, they are not designed for a rabbit gut. Most of you know that these drugs, by different methods, induce contractions much like cramps. I am sure all of you have experienced stomach cramps and how painful they can be. Think of how rabbits respond to pain. The contractions compact ingesta impactions into a denser and dryer mass. That is the exact opposite of what is needed. The correct response is to disintegrate the mass....not make it tighter. This mass seems to increasingly extract hydration from the intestinal tract. Once it starts, it is a cascading issue. It also appears that GI events can lead to gastric ulcers. An ulcer will cause an already thin abdominal wall to become even thinner. And when you add the stress of contractions, there is a high probability of perforating that ulcer. And there is only one resolution to that.

Again in my non-professional opinion based on my many years of working with rabbits, the use of gut motility drugs harken from the time when little was known about a rabbit and it was considered proper to treat them like a cat. I base my medical treatments weighing the potential benefits of a given treatment against the known negatives.....and in my opinion, if a rabbit is involved, the best place for GI motility drugs are in their bottle waiting for a dog or cat. I have never used them, never will allow any vet to give them to one of my rabbits and after I am dead ifsomeone gives a motility drug to one of my rabbits, I will come back to haunt them. If you truly understand the dynamics of a rabbit's gut, there are more effective and certainly safer methods of getting a gut moving. And I have my opinion on vets that continue to use these drugs. But I also see something from their side too.....and I can, in a way, see why they prescribe these drugs. 

I rarely have problems post-op but if I did, proper pain management,judicial use of supplemental fluids and a B Comp injection would be my preferred response. That is standard practice we use in wildlife. Works great with minimal chances of negative side effects.

To give an idea of how strong the contractions are....there is a specific warning to human doctorsreferencing to the strength of the induced contractions post-op....and particularly abdominal surgery that the contractions could "stress" the sutures. And if I remember correctly, it is used for heartburn in some patients which means it also has some type of antacid quality....and I prefer to keep the pH where it should be with a rabbit.

Again, in my opinion, too much risk for the extremely remote chance of anything positive.....never, and I mean never, will any motility drug be used with any of my rabbits.

Randy


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## Flashy (Feb 10, 2009)

How is she Jen?


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## Becca (Feb 10, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> How is she Jen?


I hope shes okay :cry2


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## SnowyShiloh (Feb 10, 2009)

Poor babe! I hope Miss Dotty feels better soon!


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks everyone for your replies  

She's doing better this morning, I think! *knocks on wood* We gave her 28ml of critical care last night, along with 20ml of water and about 10-15ml of baby food. I heard her eating hay in the night- she lives in our bedroom so I hear everything she does lol.

Unfortunately I am on new anti-dizziness meds which knocked me right out and the room was spinning too violently this morning for me to get up- but I vaguely remember Steve telling me she was eating lots of Basil. In fact, he's just been out for more, and could only get the plants from morrisons, and she's just eaten all the basil from one of them (UK members will know what I mean, but they're small plants, we washed them first).

I juiced some fresh pineapple and gave her some of the juice- she took that from the syringe very happily- didn't even have to pick her up! I left a little bowl of it up there watered down to encourage her to drink more, but Steve has just informed me that her 'big noggin' wont fit in the bowl so I have to go and change it!

She's been running about a bit and doing binkies- which horrified me but she honestly doesn't seem to be in any pain at all. She's lying flopped and comfy, not hunched, she's not grinding her teeth or anything.... :? In fact, she's more lively today than she has been since the surgery...



Randy, I know that the vets give some sort of long-lasting pain shot at the time of the spay, but other than that, I really don't know what painkillers are available for rabbits over here. The only thing I've ever been given for them is Metacam....


The metaclopromide thing: I'm mixed, but then I'm no expert. They have been used in our bunnies before, and haven't had any adverse effects. With a couple of Chalk's surgeries, she was given it, and got better very soon after, although I don't know if it was that, the syringe feeding or a combination of both that helped. We've never had a problem with it, but I've only heard bad things about it from others. I do know that some of the less rabbit-savvy vets in the group (my vets are part of a large group with several practices and a large hospital across the city) and some locums will just jump in with that without considering any other possibilities. That's what I was referring to- we've seen vets who have said 'oh she seems fine, we'll just give her an injection to get her guts going' when I've been asking to check their teeth, consider x-rays, etc. 


And Kathy, thanks for your reply! The grass suggestion is great- our garden is covered in about 2 inches of snow at the moment, but it's starting to melt, so I'll go and take a look later and see how it's looking. I've fed it to the others before when they've been sick, although I've found strangely enough, that they prefer to 'pick it' themselves. They wont eat it if I pick it for them and bring inside, but if I've put a sick bunny outside in the garden, they've munched away happily. Can't hurt to try it with Dotty though...


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## Maureen Las (Feb 10, 2009)

I am so glad to hear that she is doing so well

it sounds like she is truly "over the hump' and getting back to her old self.
very glad for all of you


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## tonyshuman (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm glad she's feeling better. I have heard about those long-lasting pain shots, and what I read is that they last 2hr--definitely not long enough. In any case, she's doing better, and will continue to do so, I'm sure!

Healing thoughts~~


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## Flashy (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm glad to hear she is doing well.

Come on Dotty!


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 10, 2009)

Poor Dotty probably tried to get her pineapple juice and can't get her head in there! :bawl: LOL! 

I am glad she liked the juice tho! That's great! and it sounds like she's feeling a bit better.

What kind of baby food have you been giving her? (just curious)..... 

I hope you feel better! if you have to lay around cause you're dizzy - Dotty can keep you company!


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 10, 2009)

In my long response earlier I totally forgot to say that we had a vet appt with Clara at 4.15 today lol. 

So, we went to the vets this afternoon!  Clara is really happy with her wound, she doesn't see any irritation from it at all and says its healing really well. 

She dd give her an injection of Zantac? Which has been used with our bunnies before post-op, and has worked well, although I don't think I've heard of anyone else on here using it?

She also gave us more fibreplex, because we went through the whole tube yesterday lol. So now we have 3 tubes to keep giving her the extra fibre. She also said to just keep giving her as much critical care, fluids etc as we can- we're already doing all the things she would suggest! Re. the metacam, she said to give it a rest for at least today, but we can give her a dose tomorrow if she appears to be in any pain (which she doesn't so far). 

She wants us to call tomorrow afternoon with an update, and hopes she would have made more improvement by then.

I'm glad we've seen her. I trust her and feel more reassured now. She knows us and she knows Dotty fairly well already. Plus we needed more Fibreplex and I really wasn't sure on the whole metacam issue

Oh, and the grass suggestion? Brilliant! Some of the snow melted and when we got back from the vets I picked a big handful earlier and she just gobbled it up out of my hand! I left her some more but she's not touched it since though


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## Flashy (Feb 10, 2009)

Zantac is quite commonly used in the UK in conjunction with Metacam to prevent gut irritation (apparently Metacam has a similar reaction in bunnies as meds like aspirin and ibuprofen have in people).

Grass is great, and has worked really well to keep some of mine out of stasis after a spay, namely Summer and Dopey 1. It might be worth getting soem fresh grass, because they seem to appreciate the fresh stuff, so getting a handful every hour or so during the day might be worthwhile.

I'm glad she is doing well though 

Oh, and expect the grass to makes her poos really dark, don't be worried about that, it's common.


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 10, 2009)

Zantac is a stomach med. Maybe she'll do better soon.

Is she used to getting so many greens?


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 10, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> Zantac is quite commonly used in the UK in conjunction with Metacam to prevent gut irritation (apparently Metacam has a similar reaction in bunnies as meds like aspirin and ibuprofen have in people).
> 
> Grass is great, and has worked really well to keep some of mine out of stasis after a spay, namely Summer and Dopey 1. It might be worth getting soem fresh grass, because they seem to appreciate the fresh stuff, so getting a handful every hour or so during the day might be worthwhile.
> 
> ...


I thought that- I just found a link that said it prevents gut irritation etc. 

Yeah, I noticed that in the summer when mine were outside a lot their poos got darker. Never linked the 2 though lol!

Pennie, we have banana, apple, and pear baby food! All organic, with nothing added. Those are the only flavours we could find that don't have rice, or other random things added. 


And yeah I'm laid up on the moment- sucks!  Dotty keeps giving me basil-breath kisses though lol


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 10, 2009)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> Zantac is a stomach med. Maybe she'll do better soon.
> 
> Is she used to getting so many greens?


Yeah she eats loads of veggies- more so than pellets. She gets them for breakfast and dinner lol. Herbs are her favourite- any kind, but she also loves carrot tops, and spring greens. She likes to put the lettuce in the water and save it for later  Silly bunny!


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 10, 2009)

Some of our horses will "dip" their hay in their water buckets! LOL!


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## DeniseJP (Feb 10, 2009)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> Some of our horses will "dip" their hay in their water buckets! LOL!



I have had hay "dunkers," too - of the horse variety.

Glad to hear Dotty is getting better - hope you feel better, too, Jen. (I had my post op appointment yesterday - no stones, no sludge, no cancer and the doc said the anesthesia will take 6-8 weeks to totally clear from my system...which causes me to get tired easily.)

Give Dotty a hug and nose rub from me!

Denise


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## Flashy (Feb 11, 2009)

Is she still improving?


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 11, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> Is she still improving?


Not really  

She ate a little bit of basil this morning, but she still wont eat anything else... We got lots of critical care into her, plus more pineapple juice and baby food, and fibreplex. She's running up and down the hallway and binkying happily though. But she just wont eat a thing :?

Her poos have started to get a bit bigger...


I'm going to try and find some more fresh grass for her now if there's enough out there...

I'm starting to get really worried about her now.... I just wish I knew what to do! 

It doesn't help that I'm very emotional and upset today in general lol. I am so so dizzy but we have a new bed being delivered this afternoon so I've been cleaning the bedroom and the rest of the house is a state... I keep falling over but I have to keep cleaning because I can't stand the mess and it isn't going to clean itself... I can't decide whether I want to break lots of things in anger or sit and cry..... 

Whoa! That was a bit of a rant.. sorry...



Anyway, I have to call the vets a bit later and let Clara know how she is....


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## Sabine (Feb 11, 2009)

ss might just do the trick. I find I seem to be able to always tempt them with that.


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## Maureen Las (Feb 11, 2009)

Any changes??? :expressionless


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 11, 2009)

*angieluv wrote: *


> Any changes??? :expressionless


Nope  Although I did see her drink on her own a bit earlier. She is running around upstairs, playing- chucking her toys about etc, but she just wont eat! I don't know what to do.....


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## Flashy (Feb 11, 2009)

It's good she is lively and alert though, that's something. Hopefully the exercise will stimulate her gut. I wonder if maybe her mouth was hurt during surgery or something? That's a very long shot. I hope she starts to eat by herself soon.


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 11, 2009)

Clara wants to see her back again at 5.30....

I'm terrified that they'll hospitalise her.... :nerves1


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## Flashy (Feb 11, 2009)

If they do it is because that's where she needs to be and she will get the best care. However, its normally only a last result, so if you can just keep doing what you are doing, or if you can do whatever needs to be done at home they they may be happy to let her come home, especailly if she is happy in herself.


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## Leaf (Feb 11, 2009)

((Hugs))


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## Sabine (Feb 11, 2009)

Any news?


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 11, 2009)

Oh no! I thought she was fine! 

Strange she's playing and stuff but won't eat.... 

There is some sort of medicine they can give them to stimulate eating. Bo had it but I have no idea what it was


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 11, 2009)

Back from the vets, but it's only a quick update as we need to go do yet another veggie run.

Clara had a good long listen and can still hear gut sounds, but they're less frequent than yesterday. She can't _feel _an impaction or blockage, which would make sense with some poos (although small ones) being produced?

She can only think at the moment that there may be some kind of infection internally that we can't see, although the external wound looks and feels great and is healing well. She's started her on injections of Baytril, and gave her a shot of metaclopromide as well (don't hurt me!). Honestly, I am willing to try anything at this point! I just don't understand why she wont eat  

She wants to see her back at 9am tomorrow, and if she's not looking better by then, they might have to consider hospitilisation, and either an ultrasound or an x-ray to see what might be going on. But she wants to try and avoid an aneasthetic if at all possible, for obvious reasons. 

She took a looooong drink of water when she got home, which is the first time I think I've seen her drink on her own for a while, so that's a good sign. We're going to try syringing her all sorts tonight and tempting her with all sorts of foods. 

I really, really, don't want her to go into hospital. I wont be able to sleep at night if she isn't in the room asking for nose rubs, flopping out and jumping around :cry1: I cried all over her earlier like she was a giant tissue and told her she had to get better because I couldn't make do without her. She gave me lots of kisses as if she was saying 'I'm trying mum' She HAS to get better! Has to... 


Anyone ever had any luck juicing herbs or anything like that and syringing them? Wondering if it might be better for her than the baby food. Along with the critical care of course....

Any suggestions very welcome! :nerves1


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 11, 2009)

Could you mix something in with some babyfood? or watered down pellets?

I made a slurry for Clover when she was a baby. We would put pellets, water (or replacer milk at that time) and bananas. She loved it. 

If she is used to pellets.... maybe she wants pellets? give her a few and then something really moist with it?


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## Flashy (Feb 11, 2009)

Could you slurry her pellet like Bo said?

Some things we also tried were cutting herbs into tiny peices and mushing them in with critical care, or putting them in water when they needed to drink.

I would think you could 'food process' anything really, so herbs and such might work, if she likes them. 

What about oats? Will she eat those? If she does, maybe make a porride made with oats and water and maybe a bit of herbs?

If she is still interested in grass maybe that could be eaten?

It can be hard for us to know that one of our buns is in hospital (if it happens) but remember it's best for her, and whilst horrible for you, if she needs those things its better for her to get what she needs at hospital, rather than be at home where you want her, and maybe get iller. Hopefully, if she is admitted, they will find whatever is doing this and they will put her on the road to recovery.


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## Maureen Las (Feb 11, 2009)

That's really a shame
she's behaving normally and pooping because you're feeding her but not eating herself ? right?

Did the vet take her temperature?


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## JimD (Feb 11, 2009)

ray:


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## DeniseJP (Feb 11, 2009)

How are you and Dotty doing today?

Denise


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 11, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> Could you slurry her pellet like Bo said?
> 
> Some things we also tried were cutting herbs into tiny peices and mushing them in with critical care, or putting them in water when they needed to drink.
> 
> ...



Thank you Tracy. :hug: You are right, that it will be the best place for her. I just will be such a mess. I think of when Chalk was in there for 5 days and how sick with worry we were. I just don't want to go through that again.... :tears2:

She's getting Oxbow Critical Care at the moment, and she normally eats Oxbow BBT pellets, so it is very similar. I have been leaving the bowl of the mix on the floor next to her regular bowl but she just pushes it out the way.  

The only thing we did think of is to try giving her some of the old pellets that we switched her from, the Pets At Home adult nuggets. She finished the switch over about 3-4 weeks ago, but I guess it couldn't hurt to give them a try? 


We put some oats in with her food yesterday I think, and she ate those, but not the other stuff. I'll definitely try the porridge-type mixture though... I'll try anything at this stage...



Maureen, no she didn't take her temperature come to think of it. I imagine it was because she didn't want to stress her out even more as she had been waiting a while in the carrier and was quite unhappy by the time we got in there. I'll ask the vet in the morning to take it though...


Bless our vet- it's her birthday today, she was on call all night last night and squeezed us in at what was supposed to be the late appt at 5.30. We didn't get in the consultation til 6.15 because some woman had turned up late for the vaccinations and check-ups of FIFTEEN PUPPIES and had held up all the staff. She didn't rush at all though and chatted to us for ages... She wont be there in the morning as it's her day off but she says she is writing very detailed notes for the other vet including how far apart her gut sounds were and what they sounded like.


Off to go try out some 'recipes' with the blender....


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## Flashy (Feb 11, 2009)

I think trying old pellets is worth a shot, but maybe only offer a couple for now. If she eats the oats, and her tummy is used to them, then I would go with that. It would be better than nothing.

Some bunnies are sneaky, is there any possibility that maybe she might east if you're not there? Some of mine love to 'sneak' parsley or basil when it's still on the plant, because they think they shouldn't. Likewise they like to 'sneak' pellets out of the pellet bag.

I wonder if maybe some sort of webcam could be set up so you could watch her without her knowing? It might give you more insight because they are often very different with us than when alone.

There are very few rabbits on this forum that I really look for and Dotty is one of those (probably because I want one of my own) and I just love her, and would hate for anything to happen to her. You're doing a great job, and I know the stress is also probably adding to your dizziness, but you really are doing great, Yes, it is horrid when they are not with us, but sometimes continually reminding ourselves that they are in the best place can help. A bit, lol.


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## Maureen Las (Feb 11, 2009)

I reread this whole thread trying to find clues. 
it seems as if she got worse when she went off pain meds . Maybe she still needs them although maybe you could try another one like tramodol.

the other thing that occured to me is that you are feeding her a lot on her own; maybe she isn't hungry'

Is she still bouncing around actingnormal?


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 11, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> There are very few rabbits on this forum that I really look for and Dotty is one of those (probably because I want one of my own) and I just love her, and would hate for anything to happen to her. You're doing a great job, and I know the stress is also probably adding to your dizziness, but you really are doing great, Yes, it is horrid when they are not with us, but sometimes continually reminding ourselves that they are in the best place can help. A bit, lol.


Aww, thank you so much Tracy :hug: It was really a comfort to read that. I think I've just had a majorly crappy day today as well as with all this, and it's just hit me that it's been over 3 days now. I think that I'm also freaking out because when I was looking up Zantac last night online I came across another story on a different forum about a bun who was in stasis, for a good few days, and was hospitalised, but didn't improve, and they let her go to the bridge in the end :cry2 It's really been playing on my mind and I know I have to stop thinking about it because it's really not healthy, but I can't help worrying that Dotty might go that way....

My dizziness is terrible but I would take it 10x worse if it meant that she was better and healthy!


It's funny you should say that about eating when we're not looking- because when we went out earlier we made a mental note of all the veggies in her bowl, how her pile of hay looked, and what her water level was. When we came back I went straight upstairs to see if it had changed, and it hadn't, apart from one stem of basil had disappeared from the floor. I have always thought the opposite, that maybe she wasn't eating because we weren't there- she loves to eat out of our hands, and sometimes if we sit down with her in the bedroom when she gets her dinner she'll sit on our laps and eat it! I'd been worrying that maybe she'd been too babied in that respect, lol. But she wont eat out of our hands or anything at all at the moment.


I made a 'smoothie' of basil, carrot tops, lots of water, and some oats, and syringed her about 20ml of it. She seemed to find it quite tasty, and took it easier than the critical care, which she also got. She also got another 5ml of fibreplex and 20ml of water. Her face is all green, the colour of pesto now lol...


We tried some of the old pellets and she wasn't interested. Just a few, but she pushed them away. She DID however eat a few oats out of Steve's hand, but she got bored of them very quickly...

We're going to go feed her some more in an hour, and if I'm awake in the night I'll feed her some more as well. I'm going to give it everything we've got to try and ensure she doesn't have to be admitted tomorrow....


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## Sabine (Feb 11, 2009)

I'll keep my fingers crossed that she'll have come round by tomorrow. You are doing all you can right now and Dotty will sure know that. Maybe try some more grass if you can find any.


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 11, 2009)

*angieluv wrote: *


> I reread this whole thread trying to find clues.
> it seems as if she got worse when she went off pain meds . Maybe she still needs them although maybe you could try another one like tramodol.
> 
> the other thing that occured to me is that you are feeding her a lot on her own; maybe she isn't hungry'
> ...


The only day she was off pain meds is yesterday- at the advice of the vet, but Clara had us start the metacam again today, as a precaution- in case her stomach is hurting as well now.... Maybe Flashy could help me answer this if I'm wrong, but I'm really not sure what other painkillers are available for rabbits over here- I would be fairly certain that tramadol isn't  We just don't seem to have the licenses for rabbits that you guys have over there....

I had worried about feeding her too much via syringe, so I didn't give her anything since a bit of water this morning until just now this evening, and she just wasn't interested in a thing.... I am finding it hard to strike a balance between keeping her guts going with enough syringed food and not filling her up too much so she doesn't want to eat!! ullhair:


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## JimD (Feb 11, 2009)

*angieluv wrote: *


> the other thing that occured to me is that you are feeding her a lot on her own; maybe she isn't hungry'




I was just thinking the same thing.

Maybe she's getting enough liquids and food, and isn't that hungry.

Quite a while back I was treating Chippy for stasis.
By the third day she had started pooping and peeing almost normal, but she wasn't eating on her own. She'd pick at things, but leave them for the most part.
The vet assessed what I was syringing as compared to what she normaly ate/drank...and she was getting almost the same.
I almost had to wean her off of the syringing, but almost as soon as I started to reduce syringing she started to eat more on her own.

Does she pass the "treat test"? Will she eat her favorite treats?



ETA: I posted before I saw your reply


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## JimD (Feb 11, 2009)

I don't know what to advise other than try to brainstorm or throw out random stuff to think of.....

Parsley always seemed to prompt my buns to eat.
I would sometimes mist/wet it with chamomile tea...can help to settle upset tummies.

Dandelion greens worked well with Chippy after surgery. 
I'm thinking they may help her cleanse the anesthesia out of her system.

Hydration seems to be a key factor with their eating, too.
Even when completely normal, some of my buns will refuse to eat if their waterbottle is empty.

Make sure she getting lots of fluids if you give her rolled oats. 
Theycould absorb moisture from their system, starting with the gut.

Sometimes, when a bun goes off it's pellets, I'll try "sweetening" them up...easy enough to do with a bun that normally eats timothy pellets..... I sprinkle a few alfalfa pellets in.


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## tonyshuman (Feb 11, 2009)

I'm just a bit confused. Gut motility drugs, fibre-plex, and zantac seems like a strange combination. 


Fibre-plex appears to be mostly oil, fiber, and probiotic. This seems kind of like a combination of PetroMalt (which is sometimes used here for rabbits) and Benebac (probiotic). I don't like Petromalt because it's just oil with the idea that oiling up the intestinal tract will keep things going. This isn't really how rabbits' intestines work--the best way to keep things moving through is hydration and not oil. I'm not sure the probiotic part of Fibre-plex is right for rabbits--it is mostly brewers' yeast (saccharomyces cervasiae) which isn't a normal resident of the rabbit's gut (I think). Bene-Bac contains mostly lactobacillis species and enterococcus faecium, which I think are more common in a rabbit's gut. I would personally go for Bene-Bac over FibrePlex
(Fibreplex info: http://www.protexin.com/vet/prod_pdf_view.php?id=21&pdf=datapdf , Petromalt info:  http://www.jefferspet.com/ssc/assets/label_info/2300.htm , Bene-Bac info:  [url]http://www.jefferspet.com/ssc/assets/label_info/4157.htm )[/url] 


Zantac reduces the acidity of the gut, which could be bad for the beneficial bacteria that live there. Or it could be good for them if the pH is too acidic there. I don't know why the gut would be too acidic. It just doesn't make sense to me, but I'm not an expert on the digestive flora of a bunny.

gut-motility drugs are a lot like the oily products and you know we already don't like them so much around here. It just doesn't sound like the right way to go.
I would go with fluid, Bene-Bac, limited sugar, limited pellets (encourage more hay eating), and mild greens, like dandelion, grass, parsley, romaine. That's just my non-professional opinion. Something may have gone wrong with her gut flora in the period following surgery, but I think the solution is water and Bene-Bac instead.

This is a strange case here... I hope she starts pooping giant poos suitable for a giant bunny and eating every green thing in sight while I type this.


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## naturestee (Feb 11, 2009)

I thought Zantac mainly works on the stomach as opposed to the whole gut? I've heard of it and other acid reducers being used on rabbits to treat/prevent ulcers, which are more likely with stasis or metacam.

The gut motility drugs may actually be useful in this case, I'm not a vet so I can't be sure. In any case her vet seems to be fairly cautious with them although I'd feel better if she had taken an xray.

I might have missed it, but are you giving gas meds? Tummy rubs? Those can be quite helpful.

I really hope she feels better soon! This is becoming quite an ordeal for you. I know you're feeling sick too, but do try to relax and maybe just spend some quiet time with her. Animals are good at picking up on our anxiety.


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 11, 2009)

*naturestee wrote: *


> I thought Zantac mainly works on the stomach as opposed to the whole gut? I've heard of it and other acid reducers being used on rabbits to treat/prevent ulcers, which are more likely with stasis or metacam.
> 
> The gut motility drugs may actually be useful in this case, I'm not a vet so I can't be sure. In any case her vet seems to be fairly cautious with them although I'd feel better if she had taken an xray.
> 
> ...



She definitely sees an x-ray as being neccessary if it goes on, but I think that she wanted to avoid more possible stressful situations for her if possible. That's the next step tomorrow if she's no better, although I think they'll try an ultrasound first to try and avoid any sedation or anything if possible because she had an aneasthetic last week, and obviously its going to be more difficult for her to get eating again....


I had no idea about the Fibreplex- our vet did say that they'd spoken to the manufacturers and they have only had success in it with rabbits, but of course that was the manufacturers talking I guess. I know that other UK vets use it as well- I'm sure Flashy has said that she's used it with her buns before with antibiotics etc. TBH I really just don't know! 

Angela, we haven't given Simeticone yet, I wasn't sure whether to or not, with all the other stuff she's been getting. Can it hurt, should I try some? We have plenty here...

I must admit I did cry on her earlier, and she gave me lots of kisses, but for the most part I'm trying to be normal around her. Luckily she is a VERY cuddly bunny, so it's easy to spend time with her and give her lots of love....


Off to syringe her some more CC and 'smoothies'! Will check back in before we go to sleep....


Thank everyone so so much for all your good thoughts and suggestions. I don't know what I'd do without RO....


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## slavetoabunny (Feb 11, 2009)

I don't have any suggestions beyond what you are already doing, but just want to send :hug1


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## naturestee (Feb 11, 2009)

I'd give the simethicone. I have yet to find any mention of drug interactions with it and it isn't absorbed into the body. Maybe sneak the dose into her syringed food so you don't have to syringe as much into her, unless she likes the taste. Dora used to love it. Mmm mmm good!

Your vet needs anesthetic to do an xray of the gut? I don't know about other peoples'vets but neither of mine usually need anesthetic to do a bunny xray unless the bun is really uncooperative. Most of them are nervous so they sit still like good bunnies. Although maybe you have different procedures over there for the person handliing the animal while the xray is taken. No clue.


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 11, 2009)

I just wonder if she's decided that you are going to syringe feed her now and she doesn't need to work on eating herself..... That's something my lazy bunnies would do!

I'll be anxious to hear what they say in the morning!


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 11, 2009)

No, they don't always need a general aneasthetic to do an x-ray, but it is sometimes needed if an animal is wriggly, etc. She said they'll avoud it if they can at all. Sorry, probably didnt explain that bit all that well lol! An aneasthetic will be the last resort.

We've just given her some simeticone- she does NOT like that lol! And we gave her some more of the 'bunny pesto' mixture.

She's eaten hay!!! ALL BY HERSELF!!!!!!

That's got to be a good sign?

We're going to sleep now. We're sleeping in the spare room because we had a new bed delivered today that turned out to be broken and we'd already put our old bed and mattress outside in the muddy wet garden:grumpy: so we had nothing to sleep on, so we're sleeping in the double bed in the spare room. Dotty has the run of the landing and our spare room with us in. She normally has this space anyway, the only thing that's different is that she can't get in our bedroom because of the half-assembled bed and the mattress propped up against the wall and it isn't safe in there for her. She has everything she needs out here, and she seems very comfortable. She actually prefers it out here because there's more traction as the floor isn't so slippy. Anyway, she's right next to us all night.

Will update in the morning after the vets..... Hoping for good news.....


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 11, 2009)

Awww I'm sorry about your bed! That just makes me so angry! 

I'm glad Dotty is doing better! Hay Is AWESOME!!!!!!!!!! Maybe she's coming around?

Sleep well!


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## SnowyShiloh (Feb 11, 2009)

Poor Dotty! I was hoping she'd be feeling better. How much hay did she eat? At least she's eating something! The smoothie you made sounds good, good thinking. Hopefully you have a good update in the morning...


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## tonyshuman (Feb 12, 2009)

Yes, hay is good! And I think the smoothie is a good way to get some food into her--must be pretty gross smelling and looking though.


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## dquesnel (Feb 12, 2009)

I just read quickly through this thread and I found a few points made that I would also agree with;

- it is possible she is feeling full from the food you are syringing her, or else she may be feeling full due to a collection of food/mucus/hair bound together in her tummy. I have most certainly encountered the former often enough. It isn't a blockage or anything, but it is a large mass that often restricts appetite thus reducing size of fecals considerably. 

- she may also be relying on the syringing as someone else pointed out. Rabbits are wily, and the minute my rabbits start eating ANYTHING on their own I quit the syringe feeding. I will offer it to them in a dish however. I have seen a rabbit once (not one of mine) get 'addicted' to critical care and slurry, he loved not only the taste but the feeling of being held in his warm bunny burrito whilst being fed. It took a while to get him eating on his own properly. 

How many cc's are you feeding of the slurry, and how often? 20cc 3x a day is already quite a bit- I wouldn't go beyond that especially if the rabbit is also eating some food on its own. The fecals may not be huge but as long as they are the same size and increasing I don't suspect you have a major GI issue to deal with. Sometime these things take forever!


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## Luvr of Wabbits and Polar Bears (Feb 12, 2009)

I hope Dotty gets better soon. But have you tried letting Dotty eat the slurry of food from a dish? Rather than syringe feeding to her like someone else said.


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## Flashy (Feb 12, 2009)

Hmm, my name arose a couple of times in this.

In terms of painmeds, I too am certain that Tramadol is not available here in that name, but it may be available under another name. I know for sure there are stronger pain meds, but I am not sure what they are, sorry. I just got back from my vets and had I seen this earlier, I could have asked  

It may be a different type of painmed might work, not any in the Metacam 'family'. NSAIDs? Is that what Metacam is?

In terms of Fibreplex, I highly recommend it. It is not oily, it is very gritty (but apparently tasty). It has a high/long (?) fibre content and can help the gut keep moving, it is also the best probiotic I have found over here so far. I have not, however, ever used it in a bun in a similar situation as Dotty. I have used it with small poos, but a lively, eating bunny, and I also used it in Tilly when she wa son her Convenia and she got slightly smushy poos, and it sorted that, and also when Summer had her tape worm and got an upset tummy, and again, it sorted that. We can't get Bene-Bac over here I don't think because I've looked really hard for it. There may be something under a similar name though. 

Having said all that, I did not know about the probiotics that were in there and whether or not they are present. It just worked better for me than anything else I have tried, pro-biotic wise. One to think about though, for sure.

The Zantac is used a lot over here with Metacam (rightly or wrongly) because they think it affects a bunnies gut as aspirin or ibuprofen affects our gut. They have seen times where it can ulcerate a stomach, sometimes as quickly as a few days after being on Metacam (although personally I can say I have never had any problems and Summer was on it on 6 weeks). I think they prescribe it to settle the tummy and avoid the ulceration.

To be honest, I wondered yesterday if this could be a mental issue as opposed to physical, like her wanting the attention, or being dependent on being fed, or lazy, or stubborn, or just plain full. It's great she ate some hay though  That's a good start.

How is she this morning? How are you?


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 12, 2009)

I'm back from the vets, but Dotty and Steve aren't.

Steve has taken her down to the hospital to have an ultrasound/possible x-ray if they can't get a good enough look with the ultrasound and fluids etc. She'll probably be there for all of today at least. :cry2

I have to wait at home because the stupid bed people are coming out this morning to see what's so broken about our new bed and hopefully give us a new frame. They didn't say what time they were coming, so I have to wait here :grumpy: 

I did make a bag of veggies- lettuce, spring greens, parsley, carrot tops etc to take down, and some pellets and some fresh hay. 

Since she ate the bit of hay last night she didn't eat anything else at all. She left a collection ov VERY tiny poos. Like, the size of individual cecals, but they were normal poos. Dotty, being a big bunner, normally has poos the size of marbles. I was awake most of the night just watching her, and she didn't move about much. 

I'm hoping that they wont keep her overnight because I just know she'll be terrified. She hates being away from us at all...

She was getting the critical care twice a day- up to 20mls at a time. She was getting more water than anything, and pineapple juice the other day. To be honest I've lost track of what day was which now.... Maybe it was too much syringing, I don't know. But I didn't know what else to do to keep her going. Even yesterday when she didn't get any critical care etc all day until last night, she still barely touched a thing apart from a bit of grass (which she lost interest in very quickly). I feel so terrible for putting her through all of this...


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## Flashy (Feb 12, 2009)

Aw, poor all of you.

If she does have to stay in, maybe take down/leave something with your smell on it so she can sleep and snuggle with your smell. Like a pillow cover, or a worn jumper, or something like that.

Thinking of you.

x


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## Flashy (Feb 12, 2009)

*mouse_chalk wrote: *


> I feel so terrible for putting her through all of this...


You did do the right thing for her. You know deep down you made the right choice to get her spayed because of the risks of leaving her. Imagine if she developed uterine cancer and needed an emergency spay, but was ill already. She wouldn't cope with going through this in an already vulnerable condition. Sometimes the right choices can go wrong, or divert off the 'right path' only to come back on later. I don't think anyone would doubt your choice to get her spayed, and right now, you're probbaly doubting it because you are terrified, and also tired too. Hopefully Dotty will soon be put to rights and you wil be able to completely believe that you did the right thing.


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 12, 2009)

Steve just called me after dropping her off.

He spoke with the vet down there, who seems really good. Apparently she loved Dotty, thought she was gorgeous, and he said that he knew she was a bunny vet because she opened the carrier and stroked Dotty and spoke to her first rather than just trying to lift her out.

She's going to leave her to settle in the exotics ward for an hour or so, because she's really stressed after the journey down there (about 20-30mins in light traffic), and then she will do the ultrasound. She will also do a blood test. She did say that sometimes if bunnies have gas or something it will bounce back on the ultrasound so they might not be able to get a clear enough picture on it, but if they need to go to x-ray to see what's going on, they will call us first. She'll also be giving her lots of fluids as well....

We'll get a call around 4pm to update us. It's 10.38am here now. Loooooong wait. Then we'll find out if she can come home or not....

I should have got him to ask about the pain meds. Doh


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 12, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> Hmm, my name arose a couple of times in this.
> 
> In terms of painmeds, I too am certain that Tramadol is not available here in that name, but it may be available under another name. I know for sure there are stronger pain meds, but I am not sure what they are, sorry. I just got back from my vets and had I seen this earlier, I could have asked
> 
> ...



I've not seen Bene-Bac over here either, and I've looked too. I know that there is another pro-biotic that's widely used available, called Bio-Lapis, also made by Protexin, I believe. We've had that before, but not had much success with it because it is added to the water and usually when our buns are sick they aren't drinking either, and they tend to avoid the bio-lapis water even more. I know that at Pets At Home you can buy something called Pro-C, which is added to the water (and makes it a lovely yucky green colour)- they give their baby bunnies it before they go to homes. I don't know if it's any good or not though at all.


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## Flashy (Feb 12, 2009)

Yup, I've tried both of those other ones, and they haven't ever shown anything positive in my buns, but with Fibreplex it clearly did, especially with Tilly because when she was on it her fecals were perfect, and when she was off it, they were smushy, and we went on and off it for a while before she was able to produce good fecals without the Fibreplex.

I just think as a country we are pretty behind when it comes to rabbits, and maybe that is reflected in the products available.


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## DeniseJP (Feb 12, 2009)

Hugs from across the pond and hopes that the visit to the veterinarian finds something to help Dotty...she has become my favorite bun on RO.

Denise


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 12, 2009)

Is it 4:30 yet? :cry2


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 12, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> I just think as a country we are pretty behind when it comes to rabbits, and maybe that is reflected in the products available.


I know, I find it strange that we seem to be quite advanced in most things, but obviously not that much in rabbit medicine!


Thank you Tracy, so much by the way. I'm feeling a bit calmer today, partly due to your words of wisdom, and partly because I'm thinking a bit clearer I think, but you've really been a help, so thanks  :hug:


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 12, 2009)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> Is it 4:30 yet? :cry2


I know.... it's the slowest day ever.... :cry2

It doesn't seem right without her here. I want her home already. It's funny, she's only been with us such a short time but she's really made her mark here. I want Dotty cuddles again!


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## Flashy (Feb 12, 2009)

Glad to be of service 

Another option if your vets can't find anything wrong with Dotty is to maybe ask them to contact Francis Harcourt-Brown who is THE rabbit expert in our country. Worth a thought if things still remain a mystery


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 12, 2009)

I think since rabbits are so unique they are left out of the training more than other animals. They are low on the food chain (I know that's awful but true) and it's not like they are endangered... 

Jen, Dotty made her mark with a lot of us too. She's a big sweetie and I can't imagine having a bedroom bunny and then having her gone at all. When Syd was ayear oldwe left for 10 days. The kids and I were in Alabama and John was working in Michigan....... I cried the first few nights! She was in a kennel just up the road and the manager is my cousin's wife who lives next door LOL! They called me with reports that she was fine..... she got extra play time and all but I was sick missing her!


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 12, 2009)

We got a call! She's ok!

The ultrasound didn't show anything- her belly is full of a lot of gas, but there's no impaction, all her other organs look fine- no scary lumps or anything else suspect that they can see.

They did a blood test- and should get some of the results back tomorrow, but some others will take a little longer.

She has been given fluids and critical care, etc by the nurses. The vet thinks she's a lovely bunny!

She doesn't want to give any more metaclopromide- she says that vets seem to differ on opinions with it's effectiveness but she prefers to avoid it where possible because of the possible dangers. She wants to keep her on Zantac and Metacam, but injections rather than orally- she said that if her guts are slow/stopped, then oral meds wont be very effective. Seems to make sense to me!

Sooo, she's going to teach us how to inject :shock: Scary thought but I have watched it many times, and if I want to be a vet nurse I'll have to learn it someday anyway! 


We're picking her up at 5.45pm, which is in 2.5hrs. Soonest appt the vet had to teach us. 

Ummm.... She'll probably have an x-ray tomorrow if she doesn't improve. We have an appt with Clara booked already lol.


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## Flashy (Feb 12, 2009)

That's really great. Lots of Infacol and belly rubs


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## BSAR (Feb 12, 2009)

Thats good that she is doing better! I hope she continues to improve!


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 12, 2009)

Poor baby girl! I hope she starts eating better!

OH and tell me this - Could she be picking up on you and Steve worrying? and then worrying herself or the bunny form of that? and not eating cause she's stressed?


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## Maureen Las (Feb 12, 2009)

If her stomach is full of gas did anyone give her simethicone?

The only thing that I have been thinking is that when my buns are off food I give simethicone, benebac, pine-apple juice andpedialyte. water and don't emphasis the food. 

the 2 things that we ( I use)generally use (simethicone and benebac ) weren't used with her. 
if you started looking around I'm am sure that you could find a probiotic over there for horses ..and basically most of them can be used on rabbits 

I'm sure that the vets will get things going again 
but it might be worth it for a few of us from the US to send you some benebac 

I once read on etherbun a person who was advised by their vet to use a small amount of extra virgn light olive oil for stasis rather than a petroleum product . The thinking behind it was that it was natural rather than oil-based. I have never used it ;would be too afraid unless I knew of a large number of others that used it.

Ifeel very bad for you and Dotty and esp that she had to stay at the hosital. Poor thing has been through a lot.

At some point after things settle down I will post what is contained in benebac and it can be compared with horse probiotics over there.
i will watch this post all day and hope everything turns out well.
i would be more concerned re. her not being home than her actual physcial condition. but I'm sure that she will be fine.

I'm so sorry that this turned into such a great big bad story ray:


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## tonyshuman (Feb 12, 2009)

On my way out the door but wanted to post quickly--
Maureen--the list of ingredients in bene-bac should be in my last post on pg 3. It may be like horse probiotics, I don't know anything about those.

And if you've had good luck with Fibre-plex, Tracy, that's enough for me!

I personally don't like the idea of using oil to lubricate the gut. First, acids and bile in the stomach and high small intestine break up oily stuff so that it may not get into later parts of the intestines, which is apparently where the impaction is. I dunno though. It's probably the fiber in Fibre-plex that makes it work.

Also note: all of my opinions are based solely on what I know about physiology and drugs and medicine, not personal experience. Textbooks and theories don't always work out in real life the way you want.

I guess the zantac could decrease stomach upset from metacam if it can cause ulcers due to increased acid. I don't know exactly how metacam causes stomach upset, so that's totally a possibility.

Muffin just did a hilarious giant dbf and I'm wishing the same for Ms. Dotty. I think simethicone, water, and fibre-plex or an equine probiotic will probably work best, along with making her eat a bit on her own. With a lot of gas in her belly, the simethicone and probably some bunny tummy rubs can help her get back to normal.

[[hugs]]


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## Flashy (Feb 12, 2009)

I have not used Fibreplex with an impaction or anything major, I just want to clarify that. For what I have used it for, it has been great, but having had a look at the ingredients, I have been having a large rethink as to it's usage and when I would be willing to use it.

I was also just wondering what are the key things that need to be in a probiotic for it to be beneficial to rabbits?


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 12, 2009)

Just a quick-ish post since I have to get dinner etc sorted....

She's home! She's been eating some hay at the vets, but not loads I don't think. 

The vet wants to keep her on the antibiotics that have been started- she had me inject her while we were there. It was surprisingly ok- not at all as scary as I'd thought it would be. I'm pleased that I now know how to do this.

She doesn't want to use any more metaclopromide, but she will carry on with the Zantac injections- more frequently than before. So we have one syringe loaded to give her later tonight and another to give her in the morning. Then she has a vet appt at our local branch at 12pm anyway with Clara. 

Ummm... She wants to keep her on the metacam to address any pain that she might be having from the gas, etc with her guts being so slow as well....

We're to keep giving her critical care and she liked the sound of the 'bunny pesto' so we can continue with that but keep offering her fresh veggies and hay to try and tempt her. Give her enough critical care etc to keep her going but not to fill her up so much that she wont want to eat....

I mentioned the simeticone and she said to go for it. She's never tried it herself but has heard of it being used with bunnies etc etc. I did give her some last night but I did ask a couple of days ago and wasn't sure if it would interfere with what she was having from the vets at the time, hence I hadn't done before then. We'll be giving her some now though.....


Will be back later! Nightmare day and week overall!!


anic:anic:anic:anic:


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## Maureen Las (Feb 12, 2009)

http://www.revivalanimal.com/store/p/1401-BeneBac-Pet-Gel-Powder.aspx
This is off the powder form of bene-bac powder

Dextrose, matodextrin, sodium silica aluminate, dried Bifidobacterium bifidum, dried lacotbacillis fermentum, dried lactobacillus casei, dried enterococcus faecium,dried lactobacillus, plantarum, dried Pediococcus acidlacticil

( I could barely read this off the back of the bottle since the writing is so small but it is close_)


http://www.petfooddirect.com/store/product_detail.asp?pf%5Fid=60551203&dept%5Fid=684&brand%5Fid=807&Page=
Ihave not used the Probios but it is sold inexpensively at farm stores. I am fairly sure that Randy has posted that it can be used safely for a rabbit


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## Maureen Las (Feb 12, 2009)

Simethicone cannot be absorbed by the body so works right within the intestines and won"t Interfere. 

Then again you don't want to give it constantly maybe 1-3 times per day


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## Hazel-Mom (Feb 12, 2009)

*tonyshuman wrote: *


> . I'm not sure the probiotic part of Fibre-plex is right for rabbits--it is mostly brewers' yeast (saccharomyces cervasiae) which isn't a normal resident of the rabbit's gut (I think). Bene-Bac contains mostly lactobacillis species and enterococcus faecium, which I think are more common in a rabbit's gut. I would personally go for Bene-Bac over FibrePlex



Hmm.. according to "Textbook of Rabbit Medicine" By Frances Harcourt-Brown, "Lactobacillus and E.Coli spp. are usually absent of the normal gut flora of adult rabbits,but may be found in rabbits fed on a highcarbo-hydrate, low fibre diet."
She also says that the use of probiotics in adult rabbits remains controversial, as there are no proven benefits in adult rabbits, though experiments have shown that they are beneficial in newly weaned ones. (page 106, paraphrased)


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## tonyshuman (Feb 12, 2009)

I'm pretty sure before Randy has said that the lactobacillius and enterococcus are the important bacteria needed in a rabbit's gut. That's why brewers' yeast (saccharomyces cervasiae) and people yogurt (mostly lactobaccilus acidophilus) aren't correct probiotics for bunnies. 

Trying to find some other support for this, and came up with this which says it's not lactobacillus in the gut but bacteriodes: http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...4bd16247fcdbb4bc74e6e6a9fde&ie=/sdarticle.pdf

Also this: "Treatments we do not do

Some treatments have the potential to make the problem worse. Probiotics and yogurt have milk starches and sugar that can feed the Clostridium bacteria. Lactobacillus has not been shown to be of any benefit, and if it is stressful to give this orally to your bunny could actually be detrimental. The same applies when you try to feed your rabbit "night dropping". The proper word for night droppings is cecotropes. Hairball remedies can also cause a problem. The enzymes in pineapple are unable to dissolve a keratin mass in the stomach, and might even provied the Clostridium with sugar so it can keep on proliferating in the cecum. " from http://www.lbah.com/rabbits/gistasis.htm (has pics of a necropsy--graphic)

However, with her taking antibiotics she needs to be on some kind of probiotic, I think. The ProBios mentioned by Maureen is best if you can at all get it, but FibrePlex may be ok.


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## tonyshuman (Feb 12, 2009)

From Diana Krempels: http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/ileus.html

She doesn't want us to quote her article--you have to go read it yourself--but sections I.E on oily laxatives and II.E. on Lactobacilius are helpful. 

Oily laxatives--sometimes the problem is a dry clump of stuff and the oil just prevents that dry clump from getting rehydrated and moving. Lactobacillus--not a normal resident of the GI tract, but can help, not sure why.


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## Maureen Las (Feb 12, 2009)

there is a lot of controversey on probiotics

I didn't read the provided here links today but many experts feel that the probiotics are destroyed in the gut of the rabbit and are useless.
I became reconvinced because Randy uses them and promotes the use 

I have had good results myself 
so it won't hurt


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## Hazel-Mom (Feb 12, 2009)

If I remember right, Randy uses them becaus Lactobacillus acidifies the gut, and that can be beneficial in aiding rabbit digestion. He doesn't use them to recolonize the guts, which makes sense, since they contain bacteria which aren't normally found in rabbits, plus they don't generally survive the acid in the stomach anyway.
If Dotty is getting Zantac, though, which is an acid reducer, I wonder how helpfull they are in her case.


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 12, 2009)

*angieluv wrote: *


> Simethicone cannot be absorbed by the body so works right within the intestines and won"t Interfere.
> 
> Then again you don't want to give it constantly maybe 1-3 times per day


Thanks Maureen 

We gave her 2ml last night. Is that an ok dose? She's about 14lbs....


Thanks guys for all the info re probiotics. I must admit my lacking-in-sleep-state is somewhat baffled by it all but I'm working through it 

I did find this, on the Protexin site (just went there to look at what else they sell really), and wondered if it was any better:

http://www.protexin.com/vet/product.php?id=17

I've not seen our vets use it but it is available to buy online...

I will have to research more about horse probiotics. Not sure if I can get anything in time for this incident (I REALLY hope it doesn't go on long enough for me to order and receive goods online!) but if I can get some stuff for the future knowing it's good, I'd be happy. The bunny box of tricks can always do with extra stuff....

I will read through the other stuff and do some researching.....




We have to give Dotty the next injection at 11pm. I'm a little nervous at doing it without the vet there, but I feel fairly confident that I managed it first time at the vets office, and it went well. Provided Steve holds Dotty still. I have always watched them carefully when they do injections and noted how they do it, so I wonder if that helped...



I honestly really love this vet, Vicky. We have seen her before, I think once with Chalk when she was sick, and a while back when Snowy hurt her paw. She really does seem to know her stuff about bunnies. We were chatting for a good while about various antibiotics, simeticone, etc. She's going to be at our local branch on Saturday so we'll see her again if we go back there. Some of the bloods should come back tomorrow, and she said she will call us personally either tomorrow or Saturday to tell us the results. She also loves bunnies! And she didn't laugh when I told her about RO! Plus we asked for more Metacam and she gave us a huge bottle instead of a little one, since it's all being paid for by insurance, we thought we might as well do a sneaky stock up. Plus 2 bags of critical care.


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## Flashy (Feb 12, 2009)

If it makes you feel better this probiotic stuff has also gone over my head, lol.

I hope that she improves some, overnight. Good luck with the injection!


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## Maureen Las (Feb 12, 2009)

2ml at a time is fine for such a big girl

I just reread this page again and realized that none of us really know what's going on with her 
we're just throwing out ideas.

I think what is confusing is that she was doing well after surgery and then at about the time that she should have been just fine ..she wasn't. (confused emoticon)

Maureen


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## Jenson (Feb 12, 2009)

Keeping Dotty in my thoughts and sending healing vibes! Feel better soon big girl.


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## TinysMom (Feb 12, 2009)

I am heading out in about 8 hours and won't be online till probably March 4th....but I want you to know that I'm going to be sending my thoughts and prayers to Dotty that she gets better. In the short time she's been here - she's become one of my favorites (what can I say - I LOVE the big bunnies!)


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 12, 2009)

*angieluv wrote: *


> 2ml at a time is fine for such a big girl
> 
> I just reread this page again and realized that none of us really know what's going on with her
> we're just throwing out ideas.
> ...


That's exactly it lol. And that's exactly what's puzzling our vets too. 

It's why I've been so paranoid as well. Last time we had a bunny that wasn't eating for a length of time, it was Chalk with her burst abscess and peritonitis.... I feel better though knowing that there's no sign of that. 

I just WISH I knew what it was. I wish bunnies could talk lol, so she could tell me what was wrong and what she wanted me to do to fix it! I'd be on it in seconds.....


Going shortly to feed her some 'bunny pesto' (what I've named my mix of basil, carrot tops, and water lol), a bit of critical care and the injection..... And simeticone.... 

Lets hope Dotters (someone called her that here somewhere and I can't stop calling her that now!) is better in the morning....


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## slavetoabunny (Feb 12, 2009)

ray: for Dotty.


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## DeniseJP (Feb 12, 2009)

Having had impaction problems in horses for a number of years... I think we may it beat finally... my American Miniature "Freedom" would get impaction colic religiously around January 1... we now have her on a low-carb, high fiber diet supplemented with soaked alfalfa cubes to get moisture into her insides (she would not drink when it got cold)... she is also on a daily dewormer. It was traumatic for our veterinarian to have to try to pass an NG tube to get fluids into her digestive tract as she fought it with all her might and often received a bloody nose while we were trying to help her. She will celebrate her 8th birthday this April and it makes me think how similar rabbit and equine digestive tracts seem to me.

This makes me think back to one of my favorite Hollands, named Belle that we lost to GI stasis years back. I often wonder if a wet diet like the one Freedom is on would have helped...

Sorry to get off the thread but Dotty has become my favorite RO bun (especially since I am still waiting on my own buns to arrive)... I hope all the great suggestions here can help her get to eating and thriving on her own.

More prayers and hugs from across the pond that Dotty heals quickly and can do her big binkies again... her videos and photos were very empowering to me as I recovered from my own gallbladder surgery a few weeks ago.

Denise


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 12, 2009)

*mouse_chalk wrote: *


> Lets hope Dotters (*someone* called her that here somewhere and I can't stop calling her that now!) is better in the morning....



:whistling

I tend to give a nickname to all of my own and some of other people's animals LOL! 

My niece's dog, Fudge, is my FudgerButt. Zeus is Zeusy...... My other niece's horse is DocAroonie..... :blushan:


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## NorthernAutumn (Feb 12, 2009)

My gosh, the last I read she was recovering well! Shows me how much can happen in a few days!
I'm very sorry to read that Dotty is struggling, Jen. I would have sent Dotty, yourself, Steve well wishes far sooner!
Glad to know that your vets are on top of it. I hope she gets her appetite back very soon:hug:


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## slavetoabunny (Feb 13, 2009)

How's our Dotty doing today?


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## Flashy (Feb 13, 2009)

*also wonders*


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 13, 2009)

Steve gave her the wrong time for the appointment today so she's there now. Her mum came around to take her and Dotty, and they'll likely get something to eat when they return home.

ray:


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 13, 2009)

She's doing better today!

She ate a big leaf of spring greens and some lettuce this morning! And I kept seeing her eating hay in the night here and there. 

She had done lots of little poos everywhere, but bigger than before. Some were joined together...

I've been giving simeticone, tummy rubs, the injections, water, metacam, etc as advised


Clara the vet saw her a little while ago, and said her guts are making a lot more noise than they were before, and she seems more comfortable in her tummy as well. I have more syringes drawn up with the Zantac and Baytril for the weekend, and she is going back for a recheck non Tuesday, but can go back sooner if she stops improving.


She's not eaten anything since we got back from the vets. Typical. 


She has been a lot more happy looking though. She was jumping on the bed constantly last night. We currently have no bed so we're sleeping in the tiny double bed in the even tinier spare room which is a lot lower. We also didn't realise we'd left a box at the side of the bed, which was her step lol. She just kept jumping up and snuggling up with us. I woke up this morning and she'd been licking my hand for about 20mins! As soon as I got up, she got in the bed and stretched out on the pillow on her side all happy 



Just have to hope she wants to eat some more. A few leaves of lettuce is hopeful but not convincing enough for me....


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## JadeIcing (Feb 13, 2009)

Awesome!!!!!


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 13, 2009)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> Steve gave her the wrong time for the appointment today so she's there now. Her mum came around to take her and Dotty, and they'll likely get something to eat when they return home.
> 
> ray:


Yeah, he swore blind it was later than it was, and stupidly I believed him  Until I found the appointment card about 30 minutes before the appointment! :shock: 

My mum had come round to help me sort out the house because I've been so ill this week I've not been able to do anything so luckily she was there to give me a lift. She also managed to squeeze in a question about a fish in her pond that has swim bladder lol.... :expressionless

I've only just got something to eat and a drink for the first time all day now and it's 4pm! 

anic: That has been me all week....


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## Maureen Las (Feb 13, 2009)

I've been waiting to hear from you..

She sounds good

now only if she eats....
What did they do to her at the vets?


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 13, 2009)

*angieluv wrote: *


> I've been waiting to hear from you..
> 
> She sounds good
> 
> ...


They didn't do anything to her today- just listened to her tummy and examined her! She also got her injection of Baytril there today, so I only have to do tomorrow and Sunday....

If ONLY she would eat! Honestly I will cry of happiness! :expressionless


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## Sabine (Feb 13, 2009)

I am so glad to hear things are looking up for you and Dotty


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm lying on the bed now, and she's lying right next to me all stretched out 

Typing with one hand so as not to disturb noserubs!:shock:


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## tonyshuman (Feb 13, 2009)

That sounds a lot better. I hope she continues to improve over the next few days. Also I'm jealous of how affectionate your bunnies are! So sweet...


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 13, 2009)

*tonyshuman wrote: *


> That sounds a lot better. I hope she continues to improve over the next few days. Also I'm jealous of how affectionate your bunnies are! So sweet...


Thank you 

Lol- it's only Dotty that's this affectionate. The others wouldn't really cuddle like that! She loves to cuddle with me. I guess she is so close to us because she is an only bun- we are her rabbits


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## Flashy (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm glad she is improving


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 13, 2009)

Awwww Dotters!!! She might have been upset that she couldn't snuggle either! I bet there's been a lot going on causing her to not eat. I have a feeling she's going to start getting much better. She definitely doesn't sound in pain or anything! Is she shedding? could that have caused the little/stuck poos?

Give her a nose rub from me!


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 13, 2009)

LOL! I knew it was you who started the 'Dotters' thing! I even called her that at the vets today!

She's not shedding at all. Our duvet is a dark purple at the moment, so if she was, it would cover it lol. It's a bit strange....

She ate some more spring greens while I was upstairs with her just now. All the ones in her bowl lol, so I have to go take her some more now. Always, when our rabbits stop eating, it's one veg that starts them up again, and it's always different each time!

I'm about to give her the Zantac and pain meds...


Oh, and you can never just give Dotty one noserub! I'll have to give her 20 billion for you Pennie!


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm SO glad she's eating more! 

She needs to snuggle with you all day.... it's important to her health! :biggrin2:


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## SnowyShiloh (Feb 13, 2009)

So glad to hear Dotty is eating! Way to go, cutie pie! Also, I think Bo and I called her Dotters at the same time... I did a search, and we posted one right after the other a minute apart. Bo called her Big Dotters and I called her Baby Dotters. How funny that we came up with the same nickname at the same time.


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## tonyshuman (Feb 13, 2009)

Spring greens are a good veggie to give--lots of dandelion, etc in there.


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 13, 2009)

*SnowyShiloh wrote: *


> So glad to hear Dotty is eating! Way to go, cutie pie! Also, I think Bo and I called her Dotters at the same time... I did a search, and we posted one right after the other a minute apart. Bo called her Big Dotters and I called her Baby Dotters. How funny that we came up with the same nickname at the same time.



It IS funny! Great Minds and all 

She is a BIG BABY Dotters. :biggrin2:


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## DeniseJP (Feb 13, 2009)

*mouse_chalk wrote: *


> She's doing better today!
> 
> She ate a big leaf of spring greens and some lettuce this morning! And I kept seeing her eating hay in the night here and there.
> 
> ...



Oh, the thought that she is wanting to snuggle up to you is encouraging... perhaps you can both heal from each other's energy? She sounds like she is happy to be home.

Best wishes to you... please eat and drink and poop, Dotty!

Denise


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## SnowyShiloh (Feb 14, 2009)

How is our girly doing?


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 14, 2009)

I'm not sure....

This morning she was looking great- she ate a fair bit of spring greens, some kale and some romaine. We gave her the meds as usual.

Since then she's not eaten anything much- a few pieces of hay but that's about it.

We did find loads of poos this morning that were about half the size of her normal ones as opposed to tiny dots which is good! But nothing much since then...

We've not syringed her anything today to try and encourage her to eat on her own....



She was so cuddly this morning though. Up on the bed as soon as I got up, and wouldn't budge after that! I've got loads of pictures of her and Steve cuddling. 


It's partly getting better and partly not! :?


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## krsbunny (Feb 14, 2009)

Although bunnies do eat, drink, poop, and pee throughout the day, we have to remember it is not "constant." There are normally periods in the day when my guys are not eating or pooping. That becomes hard to keep in mind when you have just gone throug a crisis.

For me, the hardest thing is torelax andstop "hovering" ... and yet at times like these I always hear my bunnies clearly telling me to do that. My stress level just raises theirs, which exacerbates the physical issues.

Sending healing energy to Dotty and calming vibes to you.

Kathy Smith


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 14, 2009)

Improvement at all is good! She hasn't eaten a lot so it's likely her poos aren't going to be as big and normal as quickly. Being snuggly and happy is a key to being better. Keep a close watch, but i think she's slowly going to improve. Keep us Posted!


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## SnowyShiloh (Feb 15, 2009)

Glad to hear our girl is getting better! Hopefully tomorrow she'll be even hungrier.


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## DeniseJP (Feb 15, 2009)

How is Dotty doing today? Give her a hug from me!

Denise


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## irishlops (Feb 15, 2009)

agh! poor you. i just think you dont deserve it.. *hugs.*
PS> i only read the firist few pages... good updates now.....


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## Maureen Las (Feb 15, 2009)

How is She????


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## SnowyShiloh (Feb 15, 2009)

How is Dotty today? Checking this thread is the first thing I do when I wake up and get home from work or class!


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 15, 2009)

Thanks guys...

She's doing better! I think! She's eaten a few more veggies this morning. Still not all of it though. I noticed that she's not pooing so much during the day, but doing lots at night? This isn't usual for her, prior to getting sick. She's also nibbling hay at night but not during the day. 

She's still very cuddly and happy- she did binkies this morning!

I guess it's going to be slow progress- she was never going to start wolfing it down overnight right?


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## SnowyShiloh (Feb 15, 2009)

Hey, binkies are a good sign! So glad to hear she's pooping more, I'll bet in a few days she'll be as good as new!


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 15, 2009)

OOOOH!

Steve just went up to get her bowl and she's eaten loads of pellets! YAY!


:bunnydance:


This is GREAT! She's not eaten pellets since she was spayed...


Maybe it's because she's  happy for us?  :biggrin2:


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## Becca (Feb 15, 2009)

*mouse_chalk wrote: *


> Maybe it's because she's  happy for us?  :biggrin2:


LOL Jen, you're leaving hints everywhere :biggrin2:


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## Sabine (Feb 15, 2009)

Her natural rhythm might still be upset by all her body went through. It'll probably take time to settle back to normal. If she is still getting any medication maybe once she's off that she'll be back to normal


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 15, 2009)

She's eaten loads of her dinner tonight! (She gets veggies twice daily) Steve just went up to check and she's only got a few bits and bobs left!!!! I am SO happy!

On Wednesday I really, really thought we were going to lose her. I was beside myself. I am unbelievably happy that she's better. I want her to be peeing on our bed, knocking me over for treats and waking us up in the night for a long, long time to come


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## Flashy (Feb 15, 2009)

It's great she is showingt such a good improvement  I hope it continues!

I wonder if she is picking up on how good you guys feel. She may be a very sensitive bun and acts accordingly to how you guys feel.


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## Sabine (Feb 15, 2009)

This is great!!! Well done Dotty


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## DeniseJP (Feb 15, 2009)

Oh thank goodness she is doing better! Following Dotty's threads were so healing to me when I had my surgery and was ill... my coworkers could not believe I had returned to work as quickly as I did!

Keep eating and drinking and pooping, Dotty! We all love you!!!

Denise


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## Maureen Las (Feb 15, 2009)

If you need to get engaged to get your rabbit to eat and poop then a lot of us on this forum are in trouble.....LOL
No I'm sure that Dotty is picking up on your happiness and it probably is having an positive effect on her physically.


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## Luvr of Wabbits and Polar Bears (Feb 15, 2009)

Yah for Dotty. 
I'm happy she's doing better than she was when I talked to earlier.


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 16, 2009)

LOL! She was nervous you'd say "No!"

I'm so happy she's feeling better and BINKIES!! YAYAY!


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 16, 2009)

Thank you guys!!

Denise, aww bless you! I'm so glad that Dotty makes someone else on this forum even a little bit as happy as she makes us, and that she helped you! She's one special bunny, for sure. 

She ate loads of her veg again this morning, and her poos are getting bigger still! YAY! She's still not there, but getting there. 

She was funny last night- she was trying to get to some hay in her litter tray and ended up putting her paw in the water bowl. She was so intent on getting the hay that she soaked her paw for a good minute or 2. Then she hopped across the room leaving little prints everywhere. Me and Steve were watching from bed, and I said 'I really hope she doesn't jump on my head now'. 5 minutes later, guess what? She jumped on my head! Soggy paw right in my eye!! :twitch: Silly bunny.


Anyway, here are a couple of pictures Steve took the other day- Dotter teefies!!! She was totally tranced out after getting some Metacam so she let me look at her incision and then she stuck her teeth out!


Tranced:









Dotter teefies!!!!


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## Becca (Feb 16, 2009)

Awwwrh- glad she is doing better  Thats super news, and those pictures are priceless!


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## irishlops (Feb 16, 2009)

i would like to say....
caramel is being spayed soon. well... in the next 2 or 3 months......
should be worried?


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## irishlops (Feb 16, 2009)

i would like to say....
caramel is being spayed soon. well... in the next 2 or 3 months......
should be worried?
ps. thats great dotty is better. *it might be because she wants to be invited to the hint hint*


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## SnowyShiloh (Feb 16, 2009)

Oooh, she's so big and fluffy I just want to squeeeeze her! How is she with strangers? Because as soon as she's feeling better, I'm coming to get her!


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## Becca (Feb 16, 2009)

*irishlops wrote: *


> i would like to say....
> caramel is being spayed soon. well... in the next 2 or 3 months......
> should be worried?



This is Dotty's thread, you'll get more replies if you start your own


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## Becca (Feb 16, 2009)

*SnowyShiloh wrote: *


> I'm coming to get her!


Not if I get there first!

:run:


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## lilbitsmom (Feb 16, 2009)

I just have to say that even though I have not commented on this post about Dotty recuperating, I have checked it everyday and I am so relieved to know that she is finally starting to act like her old self in her home with her mommy and daddy.

My daughters and I love to read about her and think she is just beautiful. It was very upsetting to read about her having such a hard time after her surgery and we have been saying little bunny prayers that she would recover successfully from her spay surgery.

You are so blessed to have her andshe is also blessedto have such wonderful bunny parents as you!We arevery glad that she is finally coming around! Best wishes!

Lilbitsmom (Laura, Michelle and Chelsea):bunnydance:


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## JimD (Feb 16, 2009)

:yahoo:


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## DeniseJP (Feb 16, 2009)

Yay! She will be the most awesome ringbearer!:biggrin2:

Glad to hear she is eating again....can't wait to see more pics... was glad to see tonight's!

Denise


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## Luvr of Wabbits and Polar Bears (Feb 16, 2009)

Yah Jen,

I'm happy Dotty is doing much better.
Come Dotty you can make the poops much bigger.


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## irishlops (Feb 17, 2009)

*Becca wrote: *


> *irishlops wrote: *
> 
> 
> > i would like to say....
> ...



sorry for h34r2yopur thread dotty...

:threadhijacked:


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 17, 2009)

Look at those Dotter Teefs! hehehe!


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 18, 2009)

Oops! I didn't get an email for this thread! 


Guess what we had yesterday??



*EMPTY BOWL!!! 

* :yes::jumpforjoy::dancingorig::woohoo



She's scoffing all her food! YAY!!!


Her poops are back to their Giant-bunny-poop selves as well. All of a sudden yesterday they just got big lol.


This morning, she woke me up at 7am binkying around the bedroom like a crazy thing. She binkied so high she just landed on the bed at one point, looking around as if to say 'oops! how did I get up here?!' 


I'm so glad Dotters is back! The real Dotters, not a paler version of her self! :biggrin2:



Thank you everyone for your well wishes! I'm sure that all your good thoughts must have made her better some how  :hug:


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## Maureen Las (Feb 18, 2009)

*mouse_chalk wrote: *


> Oops! I didn't get an email for this thread!
> 
> 
> Guess what we had yesterday??
> ...


:goodjobarty0002::toast::litterhealthy:


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 18, 2009)

I'm SO happy she's back to her normal, big black and white checkered self!


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## slavetoabunny (Feb 18, 2009)

I'm so relieved Dotty is back to normal. Good work Nurse Jen!:bunnynurse:


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## LuvaBun (Feb 18, 2009)

Aww Jen. I was away last week and missed this . 

All I can say now is ... YAY for empty food bowls and poop . I am soooo pleased that Dotty is back to being , well, dotty.. 

Jan


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## NorthernAutumn (Feb 18, 2009)

Delighted to hear that Dotty is finally back to doing what Dotty does best!

Good work, you guys. Way to pull da bunneh through a tough time!


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 21, 2009)

Thanks you guys!! 

She is still doing well and is knocking us over for treats again.

Meantime, our bunny 'essentials' tin got a good refill and I am now expert in syringing giant bunnies, and in making the 'perfect Critica Care'.... All good experience I suppose


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