# DISTURBING TOPIC with graphic discussion: handling newborn culls



## Shaded Night Rabbitry (Jun 17, 2010)

First off, just want to make sure that it's okay to sell off newborn culls as snake food, if they have genetic problems. It didn't seem like max factor or peanuts would do any harm, other then being a bit smaller, but it doesn't hurt to double check.

Secondly, to those of you involved in the practice, do you dispatch them before they leave, or do you sell them live? I'm offering on craigslist ones that I have already taken care of. I figured they'd be more useful for someone's snake or ferret, then useful for the ground. If you do sell already dead, can you message me your preferred method of doing so? My dad has his way, but it seems that it would make the baby unusable. And my way seems like it might change the consistancy? IDK how to explain.

Last, what's the going price? I know mice are like, $3 or 4 frozen from the petstore. I was thinking similar to that, but I wasn't sure.

Thanks!


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## Erins Rabbits (Jun 17, 2010)

Freezer freezer freezer.

The runts in our litters go into the freezer. And when I breed my spots, the charlies and sports will, too. From there they go to the pet shop. Sounds morbid, but snakes gotta eat too. I'm limited, so, I'm going to stop wasting my time on genetically incorrect runts (like elton was) and take em out at birth... It sounds bad, but theres just so much one can keep and find homes for. 

I have a feeling this is going to get pulled....


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## Shaded Night Rabbitry (Jun 17, 2010)

I figured it would...

But it's knowledge I need to know, tbh. I'm no longer allowed to dig "graves" in my backyard. And I don't like flushing them down the sewer system. (I don't think that's right...)

Freezer is my method. I was worried about it changing the insides, however?

I do let my runts live, and sell them off as pets. I have quite a market for pets at the moment. But I don't want to deal with max factors, and I don't want to watch peanuts struggle. Hippos, either, but I don't expect any in these upcoming litters. (Now watch them ALL be hippos. >.>

Will the incomplete insides mess with the snake, however? I know one of the problems with those babies are messed up digestive systems...


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## Blaze_Amita (Jun 17, 2010)

Hopefully this doesn't get pulled because this is a good thing for at least us breeders to talk about. I'm getting a pair of english spots and the buck is charlie/sport already but the doe is well marked and I know english spots(like my dutch) tend to have mismarks in litters and I was looking for a better way to use the culls from litters than to try and find pet homes(which is hard in KY) or raise for meat(That's what I have New Zealands for)


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## Mrs. PBJ (Jun 17, 2010)

I am just going to ask all poster in this subject please stay on topic, and remember if you have nothing nice to say please don't say anything at all. 


Thank you


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## TinysMom (Jun 18, 2010)

*Erins Rabbits wrote: *


> I have a feeling this is going to get pulled....


Guess what....?

So far - this has been an educational discussion about something that breeders face. In this case - the original poster is trying to find out about it for babies that are deformed (max factors) and peanuts who won't make it. These are babies that many breeders HAVE to deal with...and we know they're going to die.

I like what Kat said - all we ask is "if you can't say something nice...don't say anything at all..." because this is one of those very touchy issues that basically relates to breeders only.


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## Shaded Night Rabbitry (Jun 18, 2010)

LOL.

I'm getting yelled at via craigslist for breeding my rabbits. saying that I'm a horrible owner, that my rabbits hate me, and that I get a kick out of killing baby animals.

XD

I'm a decent owner, as far as I'm concerned. My rabbits love me. Always come to the door for "head pets" and nuzzle time. And I cry every single time I have to put a baby down, or watch one be put down by my dad.

Yet I feel really attacked as a breeder and owner. o.o; Not such a nice feeling. >.>;


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## Starlight Rabbitry (Jun 18, 2010)

This whole thread has me thinking...... No, I don't have an answer for you as I do not and can not kill my own peanuts. 

We have Buck's Bunny Bistro for the veterans of the ol' forum, why not have a place where breederscan discuss topics "behind the scenes". You could screen who is allowed to see that section and make those people that want to,"agree" to a statement saying that there will be certain etiquette rules followed at all times.

Just a thought because there sometimes is a lot of breeder bashing that goes on here and this might be a way to "keep the peace".

It is just a thought 

Sharon


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## TinysMom (Jun 18, 2010)

Sharon- that is a great idea - the thing is that so far we haven't had the go-ahead to do a forum like that. Perhaps it could be started and only breeders allowed to view it. However, I think we're only allowed so many categories of members and if a person was a VIP member (or a moderator) but had the handle of "breeder" - it might limit the other areas they could or could not see. Its hard to explain.

We rarely have threads like this and we try very hard to keep it civil - I'm really proud of our members.

I'm going to make another post in a minute...


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## TinysMom (Jun 18, 2010)

One of our members has pointed out that according to the American Veterinarian's Medical Association - freezing is considered an inhumane method of euthanasia...even for fish. 

I'm trying to find the statement that shows what are considered humane methods. 

I did find this statement on their website though..

Euthanasia of Animals That Are Unwanted or Unfit for Adoption
(Approved by the AVMA Executive Board, April 2000; revised November 2007)


The AVMA is not opposed to the euthanasia of unwanted animals or those unfit for adoption, when conducted by qualified personnel, using appropriate humane methods as described in the AVMA Guidelines on Euthanasia.

http://www.avma.org/issues/policy/animal_welfare/euthanasia.asp

I would think that peanuts and max factor babies would fall under those guidelines even by the AVMA.


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## TinysMom (Jun 18, 2010)

*Shaded Night Rabbitry wrote: *


> I'm a decent owner, as far as I'm concerned. My rabbits love me. Always come to the door for "head pets" and nuzzle time. And I cry every single time I have to put a baby down, or watch one be put down by my dad.
> 
> *Yet I feel really attacked as a breeder and owner.* o.o; Not such a nice feeling. >.>;


Yeah - it happens. Many times I feel judged because I breed. In fact - I even got out of breeding for a while.

But when I look at the facts - the truth is...if it hadn't been for breeders back in the 80s and 90s....where would we have gotten our Netherland dwarfs and holland lops and so many other breeds that I don't remember seeing 30 - 40 years ago. It took people being gutsy enough to breed.

I will continue to look for those guidelines for you...and I'm going to modify the topic title a bit...for non-breeders.


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## TinysMom (Jun 18, 2010)

The guidelines are linked below - they are NOT for the faint of heart and I could not bring myself to read them.

http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfare/euthanasia.pdf


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## Erins Rabbits (Jun 18, 2010)

See though- for me- the idea of freezing them is pretty comparable to finding dead, unrevivable kits on the wire. And who hasn't? 

I mean- I've heard of a lot of ways to kill kits. From 'mini broomstick method' using a pencil, to slamming them against a wall or the floor.... And think about it- is it more humane to take it out right away, or to leave it in the nest and let it suffer for as long as they may live? 

Now- to defend myself of my Himmie runts and my reasoning for wanting to cull my spots like this- These runts are genetically incorrect. Elton was one. He was 1/2 the size of his littermates. Dropped one testicle. Never grew fully to a senior size. Bowed legs. Many of my runts like him have had the same/similar issues. Usually they die on their own, but Elton made it and we sent him to a pet home. We were trying to find him a pet home for SIX MONTHS. He took up precious cage space for six months. We resented him for six months. Now, I'm glad we found him a home, but more than anything... I was glad to be rid of him. :expressionlessWe don't normally sell pets anyway, so that was a big blow. To me, any way. 

Now with the spots, I'm going to cross two rabbits and end up with solid, charlie, and marked rabbits. The solids and charlies will be useless to my breeding program.... as will the DQ animals. So... my options are 1. Start regularly selling pets (the market her hardly exists. I HATE selling pets.) 2. Cull for meat (I don't have a stomach for this anyway. It's out of the question right now) or 3. Cull at birth. And what's the easiest method for me? The freezer. I'm not a hands on person. It takes a few minutes in the freezer to do this... so, there it is. 

The easy thing to do isn't always the right thing, but sometimes you just have to do what's you have to do.


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## TinysMom (Jun 18, 2010)

*Erins Rabbits wrote: *


> The easy thing to do isn't always the right thing,


I really need to head to bed soon and this is one of those threads that really needs a moderator watching it...but I'm not going to lock it because there has been some informative discussion going on and this forum is big on education.

I know I'm only taking part of your post here...but I think I am going to say this....

The easy thing to do isn't always the right thing. We now have a link to the "right methods" according to the AVMA. That part of the discussion is "ended". 

We're not the bunny police and we can't make people do certain things - that isn't our role. We're here to educate (and hopefully have fun sometimes?).

To keep from upsetting our non-breeder members - can we not discuss the right way/wrong way anymore and perhaps deal with the rest of the question which had to do with disposing of the kits and if it would hurt snakes, etc.

Thank you everyone for keeping this so civil - and thanks to the non-breeders who have shared about this thread because I think it has helped me see both sides of the issues.


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## missyscove (Jun 18, 2010)

*TinysMom wrote: *


> The guidelines are linked below - they are NOT for the faint of heart and I could not bring myself to read them.
> 
> http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfare/euthanasia.pdf



Thanks so much for posting that, Peg. In order to work with laboratory animals at Cornell I had to pass IACUC Mod 1 training that covered the appropriate methods of euthanasia, along with plenty of other information. That report is the same one that The Guide for the Care and Use of Laboratory Animals (often just called the Guide and considered sort of the legal bible of lab animals) refers to. 

This is a quote from the training I went through from the American Association of Laboratory Animal Science in order to be certified in Module 1 of the Care and Use of Research Animals. 

"
Euthanasia literally means a "good death". A more appropriate simple definition is a "gentle death". 
The USDA *AWA* defines euthanasia as "the humane destruction of an animal accomplished by a method that produces rapid unconsciousness and subsequent death without evidence of pain or distress, or a method that utilizes anesthesia produced by an agent that causes painless loss of consciousness and subsequent death." 
The *Guide* defines euthanasia simply as "the act of killing animals by methods that induce rapid unconsciousness and death without pain or distress." 
There are two verbs in common use that refer to the act of euthanasia- "euthanize" and "euthanatize". Euthanize is used in this course because it seems to be in most common use, but the verb "euthanatize" is more grammatically correct as a verb of Greek origin. 
Because it is necessary to euthanize most animals as part of experimental protocols, it is very important to use appropriate euthanasia techniques."

They also provide this

"Hierarchy of Euthanasia Techniques 
 The various guidelines set up a hierarchy of euthanasia techniques, from most desirable to least desirable: 
 *Most desirable are nonphysical methods of euthanasia* such as carbon dioxide inhalation and barbiturate overdose.
 Next are * physical methods** used in conjunction with sedation or anesthesia.* Examples include exsanguination, decapitation, or cervical dislocation of an anesthetized animal.
 *Less desirable are physical methods alone.* Examples include exsanguination, decapitation, or cervical dislocation on a conscious animal without sedation or anesthesia. Such methods *should not be used unless approved by the IACUC* based upon scientific justification.
 *Least desirable are methods of euthanasia disapproved by the AVMA Panel.* Disapproved methods are discussed next. Only under the most exceptional circumstances would an IACUC approve these methods."
I've assisted with euthanasia in a veterinary setting, but never actually in a laboratory setting, so I can't provide first-hand experience, but if you'd like any more of this sort of official/ scientific documentation on the subject, I can certainly help you out (there's something to be said for having access to a research university library of information)


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## Daenerys (Jun 18, 2010)

I am a snake owner and would just like to say that undeveloped digestive systems wouldn't really hurt the snakes, but it just may not give them as much nutrition as, for example, a mouse or a rat would. I think that so long as the snake does not eat a regular diet of underdeveloped rabbit kits, its fine to sell them as snake food. The occasional rabbit kit would be fine for a snake so long as it also gets its usual mouse/rat diet as well. I don't think there are any snakes that are strictly rabbit specialists, especially rabbit kits because those snakes big enough to eat adults are usually the ones that eat rabbits more regularly, so rabbit kits in general I don't think are naturally part of a snake's diet anyways. Just think of it as a dog getting a treat. You wouldn't feed your dog only dog treats, but occasionally giving the dog a treat is perfectly fine. 

So in summary, as long as the rabbits being fed to the snakes are not rotting or diseased or being fed on a regular basis, then they should be fine.


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## tonyshuman (Jun 18, 2010)

I have experience with rodent euthanasia in a lab setting. The most commonly used and most easily approved (by the animal research ethics board, that has to approve all vertebrate research) is CO2. I know some breeders keep CO2 chambers for this purpose, because using any other method of CO2 delivery (dry ice, bicarbonate/acid reaction) does not have a very controlled rate of delivery and is less fail-safe. Not all breeders can keep a CO2 canister on hand, or an appropriate box, though.

Barbiturate overdose is probably the method that looks the most peaceful--sometimes in CO2 the animals look like they are in distress. The overdose is what most vets do to put an animal to sleep. This is not appropriate for animals that will be used for snake consumption (because the drugs will be in the animal, and usually a very large overdose is used), or most experiments, so it is limited to vet practice, usually. 

#2 on the list is doable for most breeders, and is the second most often used in research. Cervical dislocation refers to breaking the spine at the cervical vertebrae--right below the skull, and is often done in rabbits in a breeder setting with a broomstick. In the lab, with mice, something smaller and metal is used, often the long, flat part of a pair of surgical scissors. The other two methods speak for themselves, and are a bit messier and more difficult for a breeder to do. I have seen exsanguination after deep anesthesia (not responding to a toe pinch) in a rat, and it appears to be humane but is not for the weak of heart. Same goes for decaptitation. The method of anesthesia is a concern to me--are breeders able to get isofluorane, or other compounds used for anesthesia? Would ether be acceptable? 

In my opinion, if I were a breeder and had deformed kits I was going to sell for reptile food, I would anesthetize them--take a cottonball and get isofluorane on it, put the animal and the cottonball into an airtight container, wait several minutes until it is no longer moving/does not respond to a pinch, and then do cervical dislocation or put the container in the freezer. This is similar to something I have done in a lab setting.

Freezing by itself I believe is one of the methods covered under #4 on Christina's list. It can be very distressing to the animal. It is true that it is similar to dying from exposure on the wire, but I think because the animal is still "aware" of what's going on, it is less humane than anesthesia followed by freezing. A death on the wire is less humane than anesthesia followed by freezing.

Anyway, this is from a scientific viewpoint. One of the good things about this viewpoint is that we have all protocols approved by a committee of veterinarians and researchers in order to ensure that pain and suffering are limited as much as possible. This is good because the more people you have involved in the decision who know what's going on, the less likely it is that inhumane things will occur. Also, as the person carrying out these tasks, you have more confidence that what you are doing is acceptable because it has been approved by people who know what they're doing.


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## dixonsrabbitry1 (Jun 19, 2010)

*Shaded Night Rabbitry wrote: *


> First off, just want to make sure that it's okay to sell off newborn culls as snake food, if they have genetic problems. It didn't seem like max factor or peanuts would do any harm, other then being a bit smaller, but it doesn't hurt to double check.
> 
> Secondly, to those of you involved in the practice, do you dispatch them before they leave, or do you sell them live? I'm offering on craigslist ones that I have already taken care of. I figured they'd be more useful for someone's snake or ferret, then useful for the ground. If you do sell already dead, can you message me your preferred method of doing so? My dad has his way, but it seems that it would make the baby unusable. And my way seems like it might change the consistancy? IDK how to explain.
> 
> ...


Per craigslist, advertise,in the farming section, and you shouldn't have any issues.

Most that I am aware of dispatch the animal before they sell them as a pet food source. Some don't though. Some snakes won't take prekilled food. I know someone that does buy day old dead babies to resell them as snake food. I think he dispatches the older kits too. Cervical dislocation would probably be the most humane option to use. 

As far as discussion forum goes on such subjects, if there was one added, perhaps it would be easier to add a "beware" on it discouraging those that would be upset over it from reading it. There are a few others out there that that have something like that, and everyone gets along just fine.


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## dixonsrabbitry1 (Jun 19, 2010)

I think the going price for babies may be about $1 a pound. you may have to check into that a little more though.


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## rupertismygod (Jul 18, 2010)

*Shaded Night Rabbitry wrote: *


> LOL.
> 
> I'm getting yelled at via craigslist for breeding my rabbits. saying that I'm a horrible owner, that my rabbits hate me, and that I get a kick out of killing baby animals.


First off, sorry for bumping an old thread, but I feel obligated to spare my two cents.

Editor's Note: That first line was probably the only thing that didn't need editing due to unacceptable content.

_*-Edited for content*- Please review the Forum Decorum for unacceptable behavior._


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## dixonsrabbitry1 (Jul 18, 2010)

*earthling wrote: *


> *Shaded Night Rabbitry wrote*First off, sorry for bumping an old thread, but I feel obligated to spare my two cents.
> 
> Â


Wow that's pretty mean to say such a thing. Most don't feed their snakes lives live animals, and they have to eat too. Snakes/rabbits=/= humans. And snakes are certainly not evil creatures just because they have to have a diet that consists of small animals. I have known a couple of people that had snakes. Wonderful beautiful creatures.


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## Shaded Night Rabbitry (Jul 18, 2010)

Wow. 

This are DEFORMED BABIES. PEANUTS THAT WILL NOT LIVE. MAX FACTORS THAT ARE BLIND WITH HINDQUARTERS TWISTED BACKWARDS. HIPPOS THAT MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE FEET. ALL OF THESE BABIES WILL DIE BY 1 WEEK, BUT FOR THE MAX FACTORS. (They will live if left be... You /have/ to put them down.)

They're killed before they leave. I see value in feeding live, but I also see the downsides. I'm not about to send off my new borns, if they're going to live.

I cried because I couldn't stand to put him in the freezer, since I've watched them die from that. I also couldn't use decapitation. my father wasn't home, and I don't have the stomach. He lingered on for two more days, until he was litterally bones and skin. There was NOTHING. And the way they die.... It's horrible. I hate it.

_*- Edited for content/language - *_


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## lelanatty (Jul 18, 2010)

No need to argue now Megan, this should be modded shortly.


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## Mrs. PBJ (Jul 18, 2010)

At this point I am going to be locking this thread tell a more experienced mod comes.

I am going to say this if you can not contribute to a thread like this in a positive way please just do not post. 

If you can not say something nice do not say anything at all.


Kat-TF Mod


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## TinysMom (Jul 18, 2010)

As a senior moderator on the rabbitry forum - I am going to be RELOCKING this thread as soon as I am done typing.

First of all - there is no more need for discussion on this topic - they issue has been handled. So why bother to bring it up? I'd pull it - but there might be things in here that would be helpful later on to someone - so I'll let it disappear into the archives.

But secondly - and I'm about to do a post on this for our regular rabbitry members - I am going to ask something of y'all....

When someone comes in and posts something inflamatory in a thread like this - and y'all respond to them - it now makes it so we have to moderate not only that person - but your response to them (especially if it violated the forum rules). It creates more work for us and it gives them a chance to say, "but yeah...so and so replied like this or like that..." and they point to YOUR behavior - which makes it difficult for us to deal with their behavior.

So if a thread comes along or is bumped with a reply that is mean-spirited or violates forum rules....DO NOT REPLY. 

CONTACT THE MODERATOR OF YOUR CHOICE ASAP...and let us handle it from there.

Thanks so much.

Peg


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