# To Hay or Not to Hay!



## Buck Jones (Feb 18, 2005)

As a neophyte rabbit owner, I purchased hay because I had heard somewhere that rabbits enjoyed it. The feed store sold me alfalfa hay because I did not know I could specify other types at that time. As our herd increased, the use ofalfalfa hay as bedding and food, in addition to pelleted feed, seemed to present no apparent problems

As I became more lagomorph educated, Ichanged over to timothy hay for all the good reasons most of us chose to use that type. I have been using it now for several years and have noticed no ill effects, nor particular problems.

Of late, due to my reading,research, veterinary contacts, and comments made here andon other forums I've begun to mull over and reconsider some of my hereto fore basic assumptions.

HRS, our European friends, our own favorite veterinarian, and people like Kathy Smith,the author of *Rabbit Health in the21st Century*, have all been promulgating a more natural diet for our pets. When we brought Ernest(ine) to our vet to besexed, for example, he suggested, based upon his most recent research, thatalfalfa hay be the major portion of her diet, supported by pelleted feed because it was more natural and provided prophylacticdental care at the same time. I note that the thread on teeth recently posted here kind of says the same thing.

One of the breeders I most highly respect, one Mr. Rick Stahl has stated that he provides little or no hay for his herd because his research and experience indicates his rabbits receive sufficient protein and fiber from the alfalfa based pelleted food he uses that is manufactured by Purina.He does imply though, that not all pelleted feeds would equally provide the same nutritional characteristics.

If memory serves me correctly, our own Mrs. Pam Nock feeds minimal hay to her stock for reasons of tidiness and her choice of pelleted feed providing adequate nutrition, as well. It appears to me then, that it doesn't matter what vehicle transmits the protein and fiber, as long as it is in fact transmitted. Alfalfa appears to be an excellent choice because rabbits like it, it is relatively inexpensive and, therefore, is also used by pellet manufacturers.

The last time I bought hay, I opted to forego the timothy and bought a mixed grass hay that included alfalfa, timothy and othergrasses. I have noted no particular problems for my buns and it would appear they seemed to enjoy it more for it was consumed more readily.

I was going to buy alfalfa this time, but was introduced to an unusual, albeit expensive, alternative by the feed store personnel. It is a mixture of various hays to include alfalfa that is claimed to be super rich, organically grown, and super-compressed into a 65 pound"block," that when released from its binding expands into the size of two or more regular bales of hay.

At $20.00 per "block," store personnel said it was cost prohibitive for most horse owners but might be economically viable for rabbit owners and the like. They claimed animals simply loved the stuff and that I would not regret the purchase.

It is a deep green/yellow, looks and smells wonderfully, is wrapped tightly in web strapping and is shipped to the feed store on a pallet that is shrink wrapped in plastic. I figured, "What the hay!"(pun intended) and made the purchase, and took the unwieldy package home with me.

My plan is to decrease the amount of pelleted food given to my buns, while increasing the ingestion of alfalfa based hay. I know that rabbits can thrive on alfalfa pellets with little or no hay, so I suspect that they may be able to thrive as well, with additional benefits, by taking the converse route of providing alfalfa hay with little pelleted feed given. As I said at the top of the post, I never noted any apparent problems when I free fed both alfalfa hay and pellets in my early "ignorance," in spite of some of the warnings about overly rich food and excessive cecotrope production.

I will move slowly on this, but have already taken steps in this direction by incorporating daily portions of fruitsand greens for our buns after noting some previous discussions and comments made here on the forum regarding that topic. I give them the latter daily but havenot reduced their pelleted ration because I wanted them to "pork" up for the outside winter weather. As spring approaches I will begin toreduce the amount of pellets fed while watching for any ill effects. It would appear that the inclusion of the fruit and greens has positively affected coats and general well being, but that is a subjective observation I admit. In the least, it certainly has not provided any cause for debilitation that I can observe.

I will keep you informed as my experiment progresses. I apologize for the lengthy post, but I am kind of using it as a sounding board to clarify my own thoughts upon the matter as I type. I hope it is not presumptuous of me to think that some on you may be interested.

Thank you for your patience.

Buck


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## lyndsy (Feb 18, 2005)

Buck, I'm VERY intrested to see how this worksout, and was actually about to post my own topic, on this topic... Sohere's my question...

I was actually wondering what hay to use for my boys?

They will be 9 weeks old when they come home in a little over a week.Not knowing a WHOLE bunch about hay, I was told to use Timothy hayafter 6 mos. and alfalfa before that,by our breeder...

I was also told that the alfalfa hay has caused uterine problems by a freind with rabbits???? 

What do you all suggest?

Lyndsy


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## pamnock (Feb 18, 2005)

I found the post very carefully thought out and well put. Let us know how it goes.

You are correct that I feed minimal hay due to the large number ofrabbits. This requires extra labor, more of a mess on thefloor and hay building up in corners of cages collecting feces, urineand providing unsanitary conditions. Because our barn isheated, it is not necessary for me to provide bedding.

I do provide straw for the baby bunnies to chew on.

I also have not found the lack of hay to be a contributing factor tomucoid enteropathy in rabbits. We had the same number of GIincidents with and without hay.

I certainly believe that the limited pellet diet is a healthy option for pet rabbits.


Lyndsy, alfalfa can contribute to urinary tract problems in olderrabbits due to the high mineral content of the alfalfa.Timothy hay or timothy hay bases pellets are recommended for the olderpet rabbit.


Pam


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## Buck Jones (Feb 18, 2005)

Well, now, Pam! That throws me a curveI had not considered. Older rabbits! A majority ofmy crew would fall into that category, being three or older.When, age-wise,to you think timothy becomes necessary toreduce urinary tract problems?

Lyndsy, I think Pam has you covered in her response to your question, no?

Buck


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## Rowan (Feb 18, 2005)

Thanks Buck for a fascinating post. When it comesto posts like that the longer the better for me . I'm always lookingat ways to keep my herd as healthy and happy as possible and preferablyas naturally as possible and I'm very interested in the idea ofincreasing their hay while decreasing their pellets. Please keep usposted as to how it goes and what your conclusions are.

After reading this I think I might try mixing some alfalfa hayinwith their mixed grass hay and giving a few less pellets.

Thanks Pam for your information about alfalfa contributing to problemsof the urinary tract in older rabbits, that's worth knowing for thefuture.

Kate


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## Carolyn (Feb 18, 2005)

"Hay Hay Hay! That's what I say...."



Great Post,Buck!



I,too, was surprised to hearRick andPam'stake on the necessity of hay in a rabbit'sdiet. 

As you know, Fauna wasn't given any hay the first 4.5 years of herlife. As a matter of fact, when you rescued herfromher previous home, she didn't even touch it because shedidn't know what it was. Had she everexperienced GIStasis or a problem,the previous ownerwouldn't'veprobably picked up on it and even if they had, I doubt they would'vetried very hard to save herlife.Afterall,she's "just arabbit".She has it now andgobbles it up likeit's the best thing since slicedbread.

Tucker has had hay all of his life yet he's the most prone to GIStasis. I'm beginning to wonder of the conditionofstress canbe picked up by a rabbit and then they getit. I've noticed in the past that even when the weatherhasn't changed, and he's not in a molt,and there was nostress in his life,the size of hisdoody shrunkdrastically. In trying to figureoutwhatwas stressing him, the only thing I could come up withwas, "Well, Tucks! You've gotnothinggoingon that's terribly stressful,are you pretending to beme?"Since they are so sensitive and pick up on ourvibes,Iwonder if it's a possibility. I'llbe interested to hear what you herd thinks of the new hay intown. Tucker's very picky about the hay I get forhim. I've gotten him different types in the past and hesimply won't touch it if it's anything but Timothy.

Cali doesn't care for hay at all and won't touch it. I don'tbelieve GI Stasis is _as _big of a concern for larger rabbits, butplease note...I said as big, I didn't say it's not aconcern. Her diet needs are different from my other rabbitsbecause she's a growing giant. To supplement the fiber she'sbeen missing from eating the hay, I give her pumpkin. I dothink about her teeth alot though because she doesn't chew on thingsand she doesn't like hay. 

Sorry to digress by telling you my little ones' life histories, butthis question has been in my mind for a long time. I've alsoheard that a rabbit can live on hay alone. More than one vet,and Kathy Smith, have told me to go ahead and give your rabbits greensin their diet. When I first was learning about rabbits, manyfolks said, "No Greens!" Of course introduce them slowly, butKathy and the vets said they will benefit from the vitamins andnutrients in the fresh produce. 

I think I'll give them all some bits of an apple tonight in light ofwhat you said about the fruit and their coats. Thanks for theresearch and diving into this withus.Younever know what's "in or out" withrabbits. One year, yogurt's theanswer toeverything, the next year, it'sreally not good at allforyour rabbits. 





-Carolyn


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## Stephanie (Feb 18, 2005)

Very interesting. 

It's funny, Carolyn, how rabbits are so like people. What one loves, the other turns their nose at.


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## Buck Jones (Feb 18, 2005)

Part of the problem, I believe, is there is verylittle monies available for research on topics such asviability of hay for pet rabbits. Pet owners needs are not asshort ranged as breeders, meat producers, and even showers, I dare say,so who is _economically _interested in providing theresearch for us?

There are solid nutritional studies done, but usually for laboratoryanimals or meat producers, both here and around the world.The papers presented at the Eighth World Rabbit Congress (http://www.dcam.upv.es/8wrc/)will substantiate some of that. Laboratory research isusually pre-emptive and not available to the public atlarge,at least not on the usual Internet channels.

So, I guess we're left with anecdotal evidence(oxymoron?) and "huntingand pecking" around until we come up with viable conclusions.I had to laugh at myself, for after composing that long diatribe at thetop, after much thought and careful consideration and losing it totallyonce before in a computer glitch, Pam simply and casually drops acomment that almost forces me to go back to square one again with mymental processes and have to rethink everything all overagain. I'm not complaining, though, because she brought up amost valid point and one that will potentially affect each and everypet owner hopefully...the geriatric rabbit.

Anyway(s)[as California bimbos often say], I do appreciate yourthoughts and observations on Fauna, Cali, and Tucker. Itwould appear those kinds of anecdotes are going to be the only way forany of us to make any progress in this area.

Buck


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## pamnock (Feb 18, 2005)

*Buck Jones wrote:*


> Well, now, Pam! That throws me a curve I had notconsidered. Older rabbits! A majority of my crewwould fall into that category, being three or older. When,age-wise,to you think timothy becomes necessary to reduceurinary tract problems?
> 
> Buck


I think it depends on each individual's metabolism andcondition. For an older (2-4), less active, overweight,indoor rabbit, there would be much lower requirementsthan for the younger, outdoor rabbit. Also, lessactive rabbitsthat don't drink as much would more likely beat risk for urinary tract problems associated with bladdersludge. Feed high in mineral content such as calcium couldcontribute to health problems.

Pam


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## *nepo* (Feb 18, 2005)

I have a question: I'm goingto buy oxbow timothy hay pellets for Nepo, can I still give him timothyhay?


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## Carolyn (Feb 18, 2005)

You sure can, Nepo. 

I'm sure your little guy would love it. Most rabbits do seem to enjoy hay, although there's always the exceptions to the rule.

It certainly can't hurt them it. It can only help.

-Carolyn


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## *nepo* (Feb 18, 2005)

Thanks Carolyn


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## Dwarf_Angel04 (Feb 19, 2005)

I'm also one that doesn't feed hay to my herd.The only rabbits that get hay on occasional are one that are moulting.Doeswith litters get hay to build their nests but thats aboutit!I can't tell a difference in the rabbits if they have hayor don't have hay.


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## blueyes65 (Feb 19, 2005)

Very interesting topic, although I am givingShadow a mixture of pellets and timothy hay in small amounts.My husband kindled the idea about purchasing my pellets and hay in thetac bulk store where he purchases other feed, and I declined thesavings it would give, for fear of freshness and pesticide.Guess this is a topic I will clearly watch.


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## ariel (Feb 19, 2005)

On the subject of hay, being here and you guys being there I have yetto try "timothy hay" as it's hard to get here, however I have tried amix blend of alfalfa and grass hay that seems to be readily availableto me.

I have found Bindy to have no problems with it, I think it may havesomething to do with the fact that both her mum and dad and siblingshave been fed this type of hay.

When we first got Bindy from a breeder near us I asked all thequestions as in what feed etc where do you buy from how much etc to tryand keep her diet similar to what she had been having before she camehome with us.

Yes I have altered a few things and things seem to be fine.

The hay I get is in small bails and the moment you take off the wrapperit has a beautiful fresh grassy smell to it, Bindy goes nuts over it. Ihave had 1 or 2 without the smell as strong and the colouring not asdark, I now check for colour etc, as I find the paler the colour thelesser the smell so in my mind I feel the nutrients aren't as strong.


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## Buck Jones (Feb 20, 2005)

While I am not an expert regarding hay, I suspectthe criteria you are applying toward selection has merit.Certainly, makes sense to me.

Buck


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## pamnock (Feb 20, 2005)

*ariel wrote: *


> The hay I get is in small bails and the moment you take off the wrapperit has a beautiful fresh grassy smell to it, Bindy goes nuts over it. Ihave had 1 or 2 without the smell as strong and the colouring not asdark, I now check for colour etc, as I find the paler the colour thelesser the smell so in my mind I feel the nutrients aren't asstrong.





I think you'll find this link on evaluating hay quality very interesting

http://www.agnr.umd.edu/MCE/Publications/Publication.cfm?ID=110

Pam


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## ariel (Feb 21, 2005)

pamnock wrote:


[/quote]


I think you'll find this link on evaluating hay quality very interesting

http://www.agnr.umd.edu/MCE/Publications/Publication.cfm?ID=110

Pam
[/quote]

Thanks Pam that sure was a lot to get through, I found out some things I had no idea about 

Some of it was confusing so I read the same paragraph a couple of times but I found it very informative.

Thanks!

I'm always appreciative of extra info etc


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## bluebird (Feb 21, 2005)

The feed from the feed stores in my area isfresher than the feed from the pets stores you can tell by loooking atit.Think about this, the rabbit breeders in my area have a lot ofrabbits the feed doesnt get a chance to lay there and get stale in thestore.I rarely feed hay either.bluebird


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## Carolyn (Feb 25, 2005)

How's it going with your experiment, Buck?

-Carolyn


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## Bramble Briar86 (Feb 25, 2005)

I'm not an expert at all, but i do know thatloads of research has been done with horses and hay. alfalfa is high insugars and things of that nature. timothy hay is the optimum choicethat the majority of the horse owners such as myself opt for, it'shealthier for the horse and keeps them slimmer. i personally feedtimothy. 

hay needs to be:


sweet smelling
dust free
green, not brown
free of lots of flowers and stem "heads" (this means it was cut later in the season, with less nutritional value)
the important nutrients in hay gets destroyed over time


ellie


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## bunnysgalore (Feb 26, 2005)

My vet who is a rabbit specialist (he hasspecialised for ten years) has always said to me that Timothy hay isbest. Alfalfa is too rich. He actually recommendsthat you should feed less food to encourage them to eat hay (obviouslynot starving them) but he can't recommend hay use highly enough.


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## Bramble Briar86 (Mar 23, 2005)

How's the experiment coming along, Buck?

Ellie


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## Carolyn (Apr 1, 2005)

*bump*


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## Buck Jones (Apr 1, 2005)

*Bramble Briar86 wrote: *


> How's the experiment coming along, Buck?


Hmm, it would appear five of the six rabbits we own are enjoying thenew, expensive compressed grass hay quite extensively. Ourwidowed doe does not appear to eat it more readily than any other hayspreviously given. The problem with the two bonded couples isit is difficult to be *sure *both hutch mates are eating itequally. There is no doubt Ernestine has taken toit and I have to replace hay much more frequently in the couples'hutches, indicating one or more is digesting quite a bit. Inspite of its "compressed" state it is still be used up quickly, so itis fair to say it will not prove to be more economical in the long run.

Every bun gets about a cup of greens daily under this newregimen. They have largely been spinach or hearts of romaineand they all disappear readily. Each bun also receives 1/6 thto 1/4 th of a piece of fruit daily, usually apple or pear because theyare inexpensive and keep so well. In addition, they receivethree to five pieces of dried papaya or pineapple weekly. I,then, reduced pellet rations to less than one ounce of pellet per poundof rabbit.

Results....inconclusive. All the buns appearhealthy. Usually, all pellets are gone, but occasionally somewill be left over. In those cases I often do not add anypellets, or only enough to go back to slightly less than an ounce perpound.

I've cut back more on the pellets with our widowed doe, Mitzie, becauseshe has a tendency to deposit excessive cecotropes on thewire. Than tendency has been minimized under the new regimenand she show no adverse reactions that I can tell.

Ernestine(house rabbit) ran into a molt....normal, diet changeinduced? I do not know, but because her coat was so dry, Ibegan to add wheat germ oil to her greens. That seemed tomoisten up her coat to a shiney appearance and help her get through themolt relatively quickly.

Problem with "experiments" like this, is that "stuff" comesalong. We'll be in California for three weeks and I cannotexpect the bunny sitter to spend the time and effort on feeding thebuns I would. I don't expect her to "vege" them or monitorMitzies' cecotropes, or keep track of who is or is not eating hay, orbuying and chopping fruit daily....so it is "bread and water" for theoutside buns for the three weeks. Pellets, hay and whatevertreats the sitter does on her own.

Ernestine, comes out the best here because I saw Tucker Town residentssupplying her with "human" greens on more than one occasion last weweekend when we visited. I wouldn't and didn't expecttreatment anything different than Tucker Town residents receive, sothat was, indeed, a bonus for Ernestine.

Conclusions....I will buy the hay again, if still available.Even if it is not any better, it sure is fun watching Ernestine pack itaway here in her cage in the house. She didn't eat as muchwith the previous hay.

I will continue feeding greens and fruit when I return because it itobvious the buns do enjoy it so. It is supposed to be fairlyhealthy for them and if they enjoy it so, I'll provide it for them.

All the buns appear healthy under this regimen, other than Ernestine'sbout with ivermectine poisoning, which was another matter alltogether. Are they* healthier*? I cannot saythat in all honesty. Certainly not appearing any the worsefor wear.

Buck


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## Bramble Briar86 (Apr 1, 2005)

Cool, Buck. So, the whole "study" was to seewhether or not a more "natural" or alfalfa diet would be healthier? Didyou notice any weight gain or other "little" stuff like that?

Ellie


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## Buck Jones (Apr 2, 2005)

All but one gained slightly, however I had wantedthat to occur for the winter. Synopsisthen: pellets reduced slightly; newexpensive hay free feed; greens almost every day; fruitalmost everyday. Results: five buns increasedweights; one bun held her own weight; five buns ingested new hayprofusely.

All buns appear healthy.

Buck


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## Carolyn (Apr 8, 2005)

*Bump* for Kyo.


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## Carolyn (Jul 19, 2005)

Bump


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## Lazyacre (Jul 19, 2005)

Before the pelleted rabbit feed was widespread,breeders typically fed their rabbits alfalfa hay, grain mixtures andgreens. This was very time consuming but the rabbits tended to do well.Then a "balanced diet" pellet was marketed, it contained all thenutritional requirements of rabbits. This was great! best thing sincesliced bread, allowed breeders to increase numbers raised. but thenMucoid Enteritis (now more correctly called Mucoid Enteropathy) rearedit's ugly head, causing wide spread losses in many herds. At that timemills made rabbit pellets by regrinding alfalfa pellets, adding otheringredients and then producing the rabbit feed. This resulted in a veryfine fiber component in the feed, usually too fine to be of use inscrubbing the gut lining. breeders began adding fiber to their rabbits'diet.They wanted acoarse fiber sourcew/oupsetting the balanced diet provided by the pellets. Many began usingtimothy hay as it was often available, others used orchard grass orsome other grass hay or even straw. Breeders feed hay daily, along withtheir pellets, things were great. This was how things were when I beganbreeding show rabbits in 1978. Then through research at OSU RabbitResearch Center (closed in 1992), Purina's research farm and others, itwas found that less grinding of the alfalfa gave a pellet with coarserfiber and less, if any, fiber supplementation was needed. Even withthis coarser pellet many people continue to feed extra fiber, more outof habit, or because somebody told me to, than out ofnecessity.About ten years ago I began feeding grass hay onlyduring molt, to does pulling fur and to kits during transition periodbetween dam's milk and solid food. For the past 5 years, or so, I'veused Purina Show Formula (blue bag).

With the relatively new role of the domestic rabbit as a pet many seeka more "natural" diet. A natural diet for the European Rabbit, fromwhich all our domestic breeds are derived, would be pants and grassesand brush of the countryside of continental Europe and UK. It wouldn'tbe hay or pellets, little grain. 

My one and only pet rabbit was a New Zealand White I won in an Easterdrawing when I was 12 (long, long......long ago). We were unable tofind rabbit feed anywhere in our county (1960) and were able to raiseBugs to a ripe old age on a diet of greens, Quaker Oats, carrots anddried grass from our lawn. Bugs grew up big and strong, grazed our backlawnand delighted in chasing our neighbor's dog out of ouryard.

If I were to raise a pet rabbit today, I think I'd feed alfalfa hay,occasional treats of dry cob (Corn, Oats, Barley w/o molasses) andgarden greens and since no pellets to provide salt I'd provide a saltwheel. And lots of fresh water. I'd let it run on an enclosed lawn, toplay and graze. Escapees from my barn have lived and multiplied formany years in the field around my barn. If I were to give pellets, itwould be a small measured amount, 1 oz (weight) per pound, then I'd usea grass hay, like timothy or orchard grass, and still keep grains andgreens to status of occasional treat.

Well....that's my thoughts and opinions, what's been working for me.


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## Carolyn (Jul 19, 2005)

Thank you So Much, Rick. :bouquet:

That definitely helps me to understand a lot.

I had called the people in Australia who had Flopsy - the oldest rabbitin the Guiness Book of World Records. The conditions of what Flopsy wasraised in were much like you describe, however, he was a wild rabbit;from what I understand, not too much different from our own.

Will "bump up" the post on Flopsy and his story. Buck and I used to goback and forth on the diet issues and we had to find out what they fedthat rabbit for it to live 18 years, 10 months, and 21 days. It seemsto me that the lifestyle Flopsy had is the one you say you'd give forlongevity and good health.

Pictures are included of the family and Flopsy that they had sent me via snail mail. I hope you enjoy.



-Carolyn


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## Lazyacre (Jul 20, 2005)

Remember that "wild" rabbits in Australia areferal European Rabbits, physiologically identical to our domesticatedrabbits and the wild rabbits of Europe. Our wild rabbits (Cottontail)and hares (jack and snowshoe) differ in genetics and physiology.


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## DaisyNBuster (Jul 29, 2005)

*Bumping for myself*


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## LuvaBun (Jul 29, 2005)

I have just recently introduced 'Pure Driedgrass' into Pernod and Perry's diet - mixed in with their hay. I haveto say that they absolutely love it. They even pick through the hay toget to it (although they do still eat the hay as well). It says on thepack that it has more nutrients than hay -

Protein 12%, crude fibre 28%, oil 2%, vitamin C 150mg/kg

Their poos seem to be larger, and not as dark, and they seem livelier than usual. It also smells wonderful 

Jan


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## Bassetluv (Jul 29, 2005)

This is a very interesting thread; I will haveto re-read it when I can take the time to absorb what's been written(when at work I tend to skim very quickly). 

When I had rabbits years ago, I raised them on a diet consisting ofmainly commercial rabbit pellets, with 'treats' every evening (usuallya bit of carrot, apple, or a touch of leaf lettuce). I also allowedthem to graze in the good weather...I had a portable pen in the yardand the rabbits would take their turns using it. They didn't have hayvery often at all...in fact if I remember correctly, for the first fewyears none of my rabbits had hay...it was just too hard for me to getsome. However, I do recall - after having them for some years - makingmy own hay for them. Our yard sat at the edge of a schoolgrounds, andthere was a huge open field that wasn't used by the children. Theschool never cut the grass - which was Timothy for the most part - so Iwould go out there and cut down huge sections of it, then spread it outin the sun to dry. (This was way back in the days before pesticide usewas wide-spread.) LOL...so my buns had *homemade* hay for quite sometime. From time to time I would give the rabbits peelings from thehumans' dinner...potato, carrot, etc...and at Christmas time I alwayssimmered the leftover raw veggie peelings and made a broth that therabbits loved. These guys seemed to thrive very well on their diet. Oh,and they all had wood in their cages to chew on, to keep their teethtrim.

Now with Raph, I feed him commercial rabbit pellets, along with a bitof rolled oats and as much hay as he wants.He also gets toroam the yard when I'm out there to watch him, so he grazes on grassand my raspberry bushes (and the mint and parsley). At first I worriedabout him free-grazing, as I didn't want his digestive system to getout of balance should he eat too many greens, but for the first fewdays I limited his time so he could adjust. Now he seems okay...if Ihave him out for 2 hours or more, he will eat a bit here and there, butnever stuffs himself on greens. And the balance seems to workwell;Raph eats a healthy amount of pellets and hay along withthe free-grazing. 

I do wonder if supplementing with greens would negate the actual needfor hay. Pellets contain a pretty well-rounded balance of vitamins andminerals, and if the rabbit can either graze, or is given a blended mixof greens in some form, then would hay be necessary? (Forgive me ifthis has already been addressed, as I didn't read every post in thethread.) I did read somewherethat hay is actually good forpromoting the wearing down of their teeth...though you would think thatpellets would do so as well. And hay also promotes a healthy digestivetract/bowel movements, does it not? Does feeding pellets and greenswith the exclusion of hay provide enough roughage? Perhaps it dependsupon the breakdown of the pellets to seewhat percentage offiber is in them. However, the rabbits I had years ago (pre- myhaymaking days for them) seemed to do fine without hay in their diet.

LOL...don't know if what I wrote actually adds anything to thediscussion (I just seem to be rambling here), but thanks for letting meponder...


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## naturestee (Jul 29, 2005)

*Bassetluv wrote:*


> I do wonder if supplementing with greens would negate theactual need for hay. Pellets contain a pretty well-rounded balance ofvitamins and minerals, and if the rabbit can either graze, or is givena blended mix of greens in some form, then would hay be necessary?(Forgive me if this has already been addressed, as I didn't read everypost in the thread.) I did read somewherethat hay is actuallygood for promoting the wearing down of their teeth...though you wouldthink that pellets would do so as well. And hay also promotes a healthydigestive tract/bowel movements, does it not? Does feeding pellets andgreens with the exclusion of hay provide enough roughage? Perhaps itdepends upon the breakdown of the pellets to seewhatpercentage of fiber is in them. However, the rabbits I had years ago(pre- my haymaking days for them) seemed to do fine without hay intheir diet.



Technically, most pellets are made to be a rabbit's onlyfood. Many people have fed their rabbits on mainlypellets without any health problems. That being said, fewhave anywhere near the same fiber content of hay. Most hayhas around 30% fiber, while most pellets have around 20% orless. 

Pellets are crushed, not chewed, with the back teeth. Thiscrushing motion is different from the motions they use in eating hayand greens. Pellet-only diets can contribute to uneven molarwear in some rabbits. Pellets generally don't get cut withthe incisors, so they don't get worn down from them. However,greens get eaten in the same way as hay so they can help wear down theteeth in a more normal way. They just aren't as tough to chewas hay.

I personally feed hay and a high fiber pellet, Oxbow Timothy which has25-29% fiber. I've seen an improvement in bowel functions andsuch since I switched to this.


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## DaisyNBuster (Jul 30, 2005)

I have just found out that Snowy's eyes were doto hay fever. This caused a lot of stress to both him and me and he hadme really worried for a time.

I was just wondering if anybody else has a rabbit with hay fever andwhat they do because Snowy loves his hay so much. Its the totalelimination of the hay that has made his eyes clear up.

I know he can live on just his food and the occasional green, but thisis my rabbit foods nutritional content. I think maybe the fibre maybe abit too low. If so is there anyone in the UK that can reccomend a goodpellet based food as I am currently giving mine the Wagg Bunny Brunch(says it is whole health nutrition but..)

Protein..............14%

Oil......................4.0%

Fibre..................9.0%

Ash....................5.0%

Vitamin A............5.0%

Vitamin D3..........6000 iu/kg

Vitamin E as Alpha Tocopherol..........40 iu/kg

Copper as Cupric Sulphate...............16 mg/kg

I think I have heard too that Ash is not healthy.

This food is nugget based with pellets.However,thereis no bright coloured things in it. I am just worriedabout the actual nutritional content, if I was toleave Snowywithoutthehay.

Daisy and Buster are having hay like normal.

Thanks

Vickie


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## naturestee (Jul 30, 2005)

I wonder if the nutrition info has differentstandards than in the US? I've never seen fiber that low inrabbit food before! Sorry I can't recommend abrand. I don't know what you have over there.

Have you tried using compressed timothy? It eliminates thedust and may not cause the allergic problems. It's worth atry.


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## Bassetluv (Jul 30, 2005)

> Pellets are crushed, not chewed, with theback teeth. This crushing motion is different from the motions they usein eating hay and greens. Pellet-only diets can contribute to unevenmolar wear in some rabbits. Pellets generally don't get cut with theincisors, so they don't get worn down from them. However, greens geteaten in the same way as hay so they can help wear down the teeth in amore normal way. They just aren't as tough to chew as hay.


Naturestree, thank you...LOL...I had a big "duh" moment when I readwhat you wrote! Guess I wasn't thinking when I was questioning whetherpellets would promote the wearing down of a rabbit's incisors. What youwrote makes perfect sense. 

Vickie, I found one article online that addresses nutrition in rabbits,and according to this one it claims that a rabbit should get a minimumof 18% fiber in commercial pelleted feed. I checked the label on myrabbit pellets (which is called 'Hi-Fiber Diet') and it contains 25%fiber. There's quite a bit of difference between yours and mine...minealso contains twice as much ash as yours (10%). I'd be interested toknow what a good balance actually is in all of the essential nutrients.Some opinions seem to have changed over the years too...I found an oldarticle I had that was put out in the mid-60s by the National ResearchCouncil about rabbits, and it recommended alfalfa hay as the best tofeed to rabbits. Now they say that alfalfa should be switched totimothy as the rabbit matures. 

Here's a portion of the article, along with it's link:

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?articleid=1638

_The nucleus of any good adult rabbit diet consists of qualitypellets, fresh hay, water, and fresh vegetables. Anything other thanthese basics should be considered a "treat" and be given in limitedquantities. The amounts of these diet essentials varies with the age ofthe rabbit._ _Diet essentials_
_Pellets: Pellets are most important in the younger stages of rabbitdevelopment because they are highly concentrated in nutrients, helpingto ensure proper weight gain. A quality pelleted food should be high infiber (18% minimum) and nutritionally balanced. As a rabbit reachesmaturity, however, pellets should make up less of the diet  replacedwith higher quantities of hay and vegetables. Overfeeding pellets inmature rabbits can lead to obesity and other medical conditions._
_Hay: Rabbits should have fresh hay available 24 hours a day. Rabbitsless than 7 months old may have alfalfa hay, but older rabbits shouldhave grass hays such as timothy or oat hay. Hay is essential to arabbit's good health, providing the roughage that helps reduce thedanger of hairballs and other blockages._
_Water: Fresh water should be available to your pet around the clock,as well. Each day, change the water in the dish or water bottle withfresh water. On a weekly basis, sanitize the water dish/bottle with amild dish detergent and rinse thoroughly before adding drinkingwater._
_Vegetables: Vegetables provide valuable roughage, as well asessential vitamins. As early as 3 months of age, you can begin to offervegetables. Introduce new vegetables one at a time. This way, if adigestive upset occurs, you will know which food may be the culprit.Eliminate those that cause soft stools or diarrhea. Continue to add newvarieties, including both dark leafy vegetables and root vegetables,and serve vegetables of different colors. Once your rabbit is used toseveral vegetables, feed him or her at least three different kindsdaily for a mix of nutrients._


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## LuvaBun (Jul 30, 2005)

Vickie, the pellets I use are called ScienceSelective, and I think most of the larger pet stores have it - my vetsalso sells it. It has 19% fibre in it. I don't feed a lot of pellets -they mostly get hay, veggies, greens and graze outside.

Jan


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## Bassetluv (Jul 30, 2005)

> I have just found out that Snowy's eyeswere do to hay fever. This caused a lot of stress to both him and meand he had me really worried for a time.
> 
> I was just wondering if anybody else has a rabbit with hay fever andwhat they do because Snowy loves his hay so much. Its the totalelimination of the hay that has made his eyes clear up.


I was just thinking...have you ever tried Timothy cubes? I wonder ifthey would cause the same reaction for Snowy as fresh hay. The company"Kaytee" makes cubes available in both alfalfa and timothy.


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## DaisyNBuster (Jul 31, 2005)

Thanks everyone for your replies. I will havetosee aboutthe Timothy cubes. I have never seenthose before but I know our larger store (Pets at Home) does Timothyhay.

I read that it should be about 18% fibre so that is why I thought I'dbest check it out because when I used to feed the rabbits on mix eventhat was 13% :?. 9% is very low, I just hope it isn't that low that itcould possible make him ill after a period of time without hay.

Jan - that Science Selective I will have to keep a look out for. I knowfor a fact our local doesn't sell it, but we are moving 5 minutes downthe road from Pets at Home soI will look there.

If all else fails I will have to see if it could be possiblefor my pet shop toorder me the cubes and the pellets.

Vickie


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## naturestee (Aug 1, 2005)

Just watch his poo and make sure it's notsoft. When Mocha was on a pellet with max 18% fiber, shewould get slightly soft poo on days where she didn't eat muchhay. Many rabbits will be just fine on 18% maxfiber. It just depends on the individual.

If he is starting to get soft poo, give him the hay anyway.Shaking it out can get rid of some of the dust and make the allergieseasier on him. Better to have him sneezing until you canchange his food than to have soft poo and it's risks.


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## Bassetluv (Aug 1, 2005)

Vickie, I was just reading an article about hay and rabbits, and it said this:


[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]


> Alfalfahay is not preferred due to its higher calorie and calcium content.However, in situations where grass hay is not available, alfalfa may beused temporarily. It is better than no hay at all. We prefer the loosehay as opposed to hay cubes, but for those with allergies to loose hay,the cubes can be an alternative and are better than no hay.


So the cubes just might be okay for your bun and not cause an allergicreaction. (I do recall something I'd read years ago too, about horseowners who will wet down hay for their horses who are prone toallergies, but any wet or damp hay left over after feeding would haveto be removed immediately due to the threat of mold. I don't know ifrabbit owners have used this method.) If you can, give the cubes a tryand see how they go...if it works it is a great solution to an annoyingproblem. 

Here's the link to the site where I got the quote:

http://www.mahouserabbit.org/dietguide.asp
[/font]


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## JimD (Nov 22, 2006)

:bump


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## hunnybunny63 (Nov 22, 2006)

i never knew there was so much to talk about hay!!!

i feed my two 3 yrs old bunnies a bowl of pellets a day withahandful of timothy hay each a day. i woudl be veryinterested to find out how a virtully pellet free diet goes as pelletsarnt a natural feed for a rabbit.

o love how everyone talks about their herds of rabbits that exactlywaht i will have when im older a herd of rabbits in my backgarden!!!:bunnydance:


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