# The lives of Kiwi & Papaya!



## Mariah (Oct 13, 2012)

As per request, I am starting a blog on my little monkeys- Kiwi Lemon Child & Little Papaya!

To start:

Kiwi is a 1.5 year old broken black, spayed Holland Lop doe.

Papaya is a 6.5 month old broken opal, neutered Fuzzy Holland Lop buck.

Kiwi lost her mate Citrus back in April. She was heart and still is heart broken. This is why I went and got her Papaya. It's been a rocky start, but 5 months later after some vicious bunny fights, we finally have some bunny snuggles 

A little about myself: I LOVE my bunnies! I also have two horses, one kitty that lives with me and my other four are at my mums, and a dog! I'm a vet tech and am very lucky to work at a clinic that has an AWESOME vet who sees bunnies!

I am trying to figure out how to post pics. I only have my iPhone so this may be difficult!


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## Mariah (Oct 13, 2012)

So I guess I figured it out! The above picture is Kiwi Lemon Child!

Here's one of Papaya:






And here's one of their first bunny snuggles!!


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## agnesthelion (Oct 13, 2012)

Yay!!!! A kiwi and papaya blog 

They are as cute as I imagined. I love papayas ears and kiwi looks like a total princess.

How great you get to be a vet tech. I always thought I would love that job.

Love to see that you started a blog. I will follow for more updates!


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## Mariah (Oct 13, 2012)

I'm excited too that I've started a blog! None of my friends have bunnies so they just think I'm crazy when I'm babbling on about them! Not I've got a place to do it and everyone will understand!

Being a vet tech isn't all it's cracked up to be. It's long hours and crappy pay... But it equals out cause I've always got a vet on hand, even on weekends, which is of course when any bad thing happens.

Kiwi is definitely a little princess and I don't think Papayas ears will ever lop! Funny though, they were down when I got him at 7 weeks!

Here's some more pics:


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## whitelop (Oct 13, 2012)

They're both so cute!
They look really good together!


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## agnesthelion (Oct 13, 2012)

Oh I know what you mean about friends thinking your nuts. Mine all do too. My close friends accept my bunny obsession. But I still get snarky comments or weird looks from people who don't understand. Bleh.

That papaya is a total charmer!!! They are both so sweet but he is just too cute. I can't get over his ears!


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## Mariah (Oct 13, 2012)

Thank you! I saw Papaya on a bunny website and I drove 3 hours to get him! He came from the same breeder I had gotten Citrus from, so it was well worth the drive!

Here is a pic of Kiwi & Citrus. They were lovers from day 1. RIP Citrus Chicken Man..


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## agnesthelion (Oct 13, 2012)

Aww citrus and kiwi look like twins almost, obviously different colors but their shape and size look the same. So sorry about losing citrus 

I think you are well on your way with kiwi and papaya. More sweet memories to come!


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## Mariah (Oct 14, 2012)

I hope so! 

Here is another pic of their house! When I'm home they have access to the rest of the "my" house as well!


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## JBun (Oct 14, 2012)

Oh yay!!! Another fun blog to read. And I love hearing how your buns are progressing, so even better. They are both absolutely adorable . You can just see by looking at Papaya, how he's getting himself into trouble with Kiwi. You can see in their faces that Kiwi's this older experienced bun, and Papaya's this young innocent, and maybe a little clueless, little guy. I can totally see why he got nipped now, even though they seem to like each other really well. He just looks like he really likes her and hopes she'll let him hang out with her. I love the pictures and your blog. Can't wait to hear more.


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## Mariah (Oct 14, 2012)

I love the prospective you put on them Jbun! It's so true! Papaya is a happy go lucky little dude! He's always like "kiwi, can I sit with you? Kiwi, come play with me!" And kiwis like "papaya, I just wanna sleep!" Hahahahaha


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## Mariah (Oct 14, 2012)

Well, all is going well today for Kiwi & Papaya! No bunny fights! Yay! Kiwi just did a huge bunny flop and Papaya is standing guard making sure no one gets kiwi  I think that's adorable!

I also got my bunny toys in the mail today! They came from Floridia from an online bunny site and my buns love them! They are chewing away happily 

Here's a pic of Papaya when he first woke up from his neuter. He looks stoned! Poor baby!






And this is what Papaya looked like when I first got him. Notice his ears were lopped then?!!


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## agnesthelion (Oct 14, 2012)

I'm so glad for their bonding and laying down together like that. You've worked hard enough at this......you deserve it!!

His ears are so cute. Flopped or not, he's a doll! (although I do like his half flopped sticking out ears )


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## JBun (Oct 15, 2012)

What a cute baby! How could you resist that adorable face


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## Mariah (Oct 15, 2012)

I couldn't resist him! I saw him on the website and was like "road trip"!! I called up my friend who was more then willing to come along for the ride! On our way there we stopped at an outlet mall and guess who I met? Peter Facinelli who plays Carlisle Cullen in Twlight!! I couldn't believe we just happened to be at the same mall as him! It was a crazy day that's for sure!

It's defintely been a long and hard road with my two buns. Tons of downs but I'm hoping the road is just uphill now! Kiwi so desperately needs a buddy and Papaya seems to really like his "big sister" 

Here's a picture of Kiwi after her spay:


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## Mariah (Oct 15, 2012)

I think it's so cute, in the mornings, when I first let them out to play they both make a beeline to each others cages! Apparently the hay in the other cage in better then in their own cage


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## JBun (Oct 15, 2012)

I guess it's true, 'the grass is always greener in the other cage'


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## Mariah (Oct 15, 2012)

Haha, well put Jbun!

What do you guys think of these toys? My buns really like them! I ordered them from this website: pet-rabbit-toys.com

They seem to sell a lot! If anyone's on fb they post things there too! My only concern is the rope part of their flinging toy. Anyone have one of these or something similar?

Here are the pics:






And


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## JBun (Oct 15, 2012)

I bet that was fun on your little bunny trip, to run into the Twilight guy. That trip was definitely worth your while, especially since you got a gorgeous bun as a result. I'm totally in love with Papaya's sweet little face. He just has such an innocence to him. I think things are going to continue to work out with them. Papaya just needs to figure out to leave his 'sis' alone when she's feeling a grump. I'm sure you can already see a difference with how Kiwi's feeling. Does she seem happier and less depressed? She looks so sweet snuggled under her towel after the spay. Hard to believe she would ever be grumpy.

The buns are like 'Woo Hoo, new toys'. They look totally interested in them. Yeah, stringy things worry me too with my buns. Those look like natural fiber rope, right? So maybe that's better. Maybe just keep any stray strings trimmed. I'm sure they'll have a blast chewing those things to bits


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## Mariah (Oct 15, 2012)

Kiwi does seem happier! She's more willing to come out of her x pen and run around!  She's by no means out of the woods yet as I'm still giving her cisapride and metacam. I stopped the metacam for a while and she went back not wanting to run around so I started it again and it defintely seems to help!

Papaya really does have a sweet face! I think his ears just add to how adorably cute he is! I think for kiwi, maybe it's a combination of Papaya and the metacam that is helping her. I am also giving her pineapple juice at night because the amount she grooms Papaya she was pooping out hair :S

In addition, I got the "Papaya tablets" for kiwi too. I haven't noticed Papaya having a problem with the hair but he was a little monkey last night and jumped up to where I had kiwis "Papaya tablet" and stole one! Little bugger!
I'm only giving them the rope toy when I'm watching them because the rope makes me nervous, but then I think, why would they make it for buns if it wasent safe?

The toy without the rope, kiwi has almost chewed right through that wood that holds the pieces together! I guess it was a good purchase!

Ill be ordering more toys from them very soon as the pet stores around here don't seem to have a lot of toys for bunnies.


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## Mariah (Oct 15, 2012)

Kiwi is sad this evening. Papaya is just sitting with her keeping her company. What a good little brother he is being tonight.


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## JBun (Oct 15, 2012)

Poor Kiwi  At least now she has a buddy to keep her company when she's not feeling well.


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## Mariah (Oct 16, 2012)

I just don't understand. Well, I do understand what kiwi is going through because I went through it when we both lost Citrus. I gues the difference is I know where he went. She dosent. I mean, I'm sure she knew he was sick or something wasent right. I really hope Papaya can help her. It's like I hold my breath every morning when I wake up and come home from work, not knowing if she's going to eat for me and have poops in her litter box. She makes me so stressed!

I live with my boyfriend and he leaves for work at 2 pm (ive been at work since 8am- dont get home till 7pm) so I always ask him if she has pooped and what she's doing etc. I also ask about Papaya of course cause I don't want him following her lead and deciding to be depressed too. I don't know what he would become depressed about though!

Both my buns have "life in London" they are spoiled! Ahh! Bunnies, well Kiwi stresses me out! But I love them and I don't know what I would so without them!


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## qtipthebun (Oct 16, 2012)

They are so unbearably cute. I love those toys you got them.


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## JBun (Oct 16, 2012)

Do you think she's depressed or could she just not be feeling well, like upset tummy? Do her poops look normal?


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## Mariah (Oct 16, 2012)

I think she's depressed which causes stress which leads to an upset tummy. She didn't poop a lot for me overnight but her poops look normal sized this morning. She is eating her breakfast her normal way- so she eats some, goes and lays down, then gets up and eats more. She's not done them yet. 

Ugh, I have a 10.5 shift today... I'm going to be worried all day long...

I already have her on meds. I don't know what else I can be doing for her right now.

On a positive note, Papaya is in happy spirits this morning!


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## JBun (Oct 16, 2012)

I'm just wondering if it might be the other way around. That maybe something she's eating is upsetting her stomach, and because she's feeling sick, she gets all quite. It just seems strange that she would be perfectly fine and happy with Papaya and then get all down again. It doesn't seem right to have to have her on medication so frequently. Could you maybe experiment with her diet and see if that makes a difference in her mood.


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## Mariah (Oct 16, 2012)

I can definetly experiment with her food. I just don't know what to experiment with.

This is what she currently gets:

1/3 cup of Martins Adult pellets AM and PM
Unlimited Timothy hay
Unlimited water
A sprinkle of alphfa hay just in the AM (only because I'm worried she won't eat- I know this is not great for her...)
1/4 of a papaya tablet in the PM
About a spoonful of pineapple juice in the PM

I've tried her on the Oxbow pellets and she did not like them. I've also had her on another brand of Timothy pellets but she didn't like those ones ether. The martins pellets are a round pellet whereas the other pellets I've had her on where the long kind.

I'm welcome to any suggestions please!

I just got an update from my boyfriend, he says kiwi is ok and there is poop In her litter box.


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## JBun (Oct 16, 2012)

So is she shedding right now? Is that why you give her the pineapple juice and papaya tablet each day? Also, are the poops the normal size and shape?

Well, I can just tell you my experience with my rabbits and you can decide what you think. So in May my little Dash died from GI stasis. I absolutely loved this rabbit. She was just so sweet and friendly, and I was heartbroken. I had started researching GI stasis, but it was too late. She had a really severe case and died the day after I took her to the vet. Well, in my effort to research, I came to realize i missed all the warning signs of stasis and that basically my mistakes ended up killing her. I was only giving her something as simple as a half a grape or half a baby carrot each day as a treat. That was enough to make her really sick. Then about 2 months later I got a new rabbit and he had a really hard time adjusting to the change of a new home, and he got stasis from the stress. He was getting his same kind of food so I knew it wasn't from that. But this time I knew what to look for and knew what to do, so I also caught it earlier. He came out of it, but then later I tried to switch him back to his old pellets and he got sick again. So I did all the syringe feeding, etc. He got better and was doing ok, but I wanted him on a better pellet, and,yes, he got stasis again. So after all this I tried putting him back on his pellets that he was doing ok on, but now that was making him sick too, and even harder to deal with is he absolutely won't eat hay. He'll nibble on a piece here and there but if I tried to make him eat more hay, and I wouldn't give him pellets, he just wouldn't eat. So I was kind of in a dilemma. He couldn't have any pellets and he wouldn't eat hay. I was syringing critical care and giving leafy veggies, but I had to find something he would eat on his own. So I found some hay pellets that are just compressed pelleted hay without any additives. So at the end of all those stasis bouts, his poop was coming out extra small and extra large. That's what had been happening with Dash before she stopped eating and pooping, before she died. So I knew his stomach was still having issues. So I did probiotic paste with him and his poop is almost back to normal now. 

So just with all these problems with stasis, I've probably become hyper vigilant about things that contribute to it. The sweetest treat any of my rabbits get is a small baby carrot, and those for only the rabbits that have never had any health problems. For my stasis bun, he gets green leafy veggies and his hay pellets. I check everyones poop everyday. I'm almost a little paranoid about stasis now. 

So with Kiwi having had tummy trouble in the past, I personally would be worried about giving her anything with sugar in it, because that's how I am with my buns now. IF any of my buns were to become less active and decrease eating, I would be giving simethicone and metacam, then I would decrease pellets to increase their hay consumption, give only green leafy veggies, and they would get nothing else with sugar, carbs or grains. So I just base that course on the things that I've learned from my rabbits with stasis. Even the simethicone and metacam make me a little nervous using cause they have sugar in them, but if gas is the problem then they can help. I also will use a probiotic.

I would be a little worried about using papaya tablets and the pineapple juice, just because of all the sugar my buns would be getting. I know some people swear by these things working, but with my bun now, because of his prior tummy trouble, I would never use them. With shedding issues, I'm more for decreasing pellets to increase hay consumption. I would be going for a hay with lots of thick stems in it. It wouldn't have much nutrition, but it would have a ton of fiber, and that's what I feel they need when the gut is slowing down. I would also give apple brances and willow branches everyday, for the extra fiber. And also leafy greens cause they tend to soften things up and move things through the gut instead of slowing it down. 

With it being your bun, you're most familiar with her, and can figure out what you think is going to help her most. I just wanted to share my own personal experience with stasis in case that might be part of what Kiwi's issue is, and maybe something I said might help with her. It's hard to know if her problem is emotional or physical. If you don't feel the pineapple and papaya are critical, you could try cutting those out. And if you think she'll eat more hay by decreasing her pellets a little, you could try that and see if either of those things will make a difference in her mood. These are just ideas. Do what you think will be best for her.

Wow, sorry this is so long.


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## JBun (Oct 16, 2012)

By the way, how much does Kiwi weigh? Generally, the feeding guidelines for a 5 lb rabbit, is 1/4-1/2 cup pellets per day. And it looks like your feeding her 2/3 cup a day, is that right?


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## Mariah (Oct 16, 2012)

Hi Jbun, thank you SO much for posting what you did. I am very sorry to hear about your little Dash  As you know, my little dude Citrus, passed on in April, and I too was absolutely heartbroken by his loss. He didn't die of stasis, he got an abscess in his mouth and we think he went septic. I did absolutely everything for him but it was his time unfortuntely.

With kiwi, you do bring valid points that I never thought of. She is not shedding anymore. She was for the past couple of months. Now she just has the odd hair tuff I pull out every night. I started her on the pineapple and papaya because I didn't know what else to do for her, so I thought that it may help. It's not as you can see, so I will stop the pineapple and papaya tonight. The other reason why I started her on it was because she was grooming Papaya like crazy and as you can tell by the pictures, he's a furry monster! I did see hair in her poops last week which is also what prompted the pineapple and papaya.

I also took your suggestion and decreased her pellets by half tonight. So instead of getting 1/3 cup, she is getting 1/6 cup AM and PM so 1/3 total pellets for the day. Does that seem right? She weighs about 3-4 pounds.

Her poop "was" normal size. Tonight I noticed that she had some tiny poops as well which I do know is an indication of stasis... She's not a great hay eater... She has unlimited Timothy hay by oxbow. I have had her on the kaytee Timothy hay as well for a long time but she decided she didn't like it anymore which prompted the switch to oxbow. I've tried her on the grass oxbow hay as well, which she also did not like.

When you say "compressed hay pellets" where can you get those? Are you talking about the blocks of hay? If so, I can pick some up at the pet store tomorrow.

I'm also going to get her the simethcone tomorrow as well. I've never had her on that before but was taking to my vet and she said yes bunnies can have that.

Kiwi did come out for a brief run in the living room tonight so I guess that's positive...

Ill also have to get her some lettuce tomorrow. I have carrots on hand but because you said they are high in sugar I don't want to give her one in case it's the extra sugar that's causing her tummy ache.

Again, thank you so much for writing what you did. I really appricate it as I'm at a loss as what else I can do for my sweet little kiwi.

Anything else you can think of, please do post it!

Edited to say: I also clean both their litter boxes everyday. Sometimes I do it twice. By cleaning I mean, their whole litter box gets dumped and fresh shavings are added everyday.


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## JBun (Oct 17, 2012)

It's really hard when we get so attached to our buns and then we lose them. I almost wanted to just call it quits with rabbits, but I couldn't cause I love them too much.

Oh, Kiwi is not going to be happy about no treats  It's for her own good though poor girl. Yeah, 1/3 cup sounds more in line for her weight. Now that she'll be getting less pellets, she should pick up on the hay eating. You'll probably want to keep an eye on it though, and make sure that she does increase her hay consumption. It makes it really hard when our buns decide to be picky about their hay. That was the problem with Zeus. I think he would have rather starved to death with a pile of hay in front of him, then go without his lovely pellets. Getting these hay pellets was kind of a last ditch effort on my part. It was the last thing I could think of that he might eat, and luckily he did... These hay pellets aren't the cubes. They are like rabbit pellets but just a bit bigger size. I get them at a feed store, where I also get bales of timothy hay, and it's sold as a horse feed. It's actually a mix of half timothy and half alfalfa. This company also has just straight timothy but I would have to probably special order it. This only has 15% protein so I figured it would be fine, and it was really my only option at the time. It would actually be alot better if he would eat hay cause there is better fiber in hay than the pellets. He will nibble on a little hay but that's all. Maybe stick with trying the hay and see if she'll start eating more now that her pellets are reduced. You could try the hay blocks though, it wouldn't hurt anything.

Zeus' poops are the same as Kiwi's. He has a lot of normal ones now, but there are still some small ones in there. I ran out of his probiotic that seemed to have been helping his poops get more back to normal. I'm trying to order this special rabbit probiotic paste that's supposed to be really good, through my vet, but it's been on back order. It's called Proviable RB. I wanted to see if it would help him, but I'm still waiting for it, so I may just have to get some more of the other stuff in the mean time. The good thing is that he absolutely loves it. He practically tries to climb out of his cage to get to it.

So with the simethicone, if Zeus has stopped pooping, or hardly is, and doesn't seem interested in eating, and is sitting in the back of his cage not wanting to move around much and seems uncomfortable, that's when I know I need to do something to help him. I'll start with simethicone and if there's no change in an hour, I'll give him another dose and give him metacam, and then an hour later I'll give another dose of simethicone. After that if he's not eating I'll start syringe feeding critical care and start probiotics. So that's my 'routine' with the simethicone. I'm still kind of cautious about using it just because of the sugar, but when he's stopped eating, I feel that it is necessary. I sure have learned a lot about stasis since I had this guy.

Yeah, Zeus hasn't had one carrot since I've had him. He gets leafy greens for his treats, and the probiotics - his fav. Have you given lettuce to Kiwi before? If not just make sure you do the gradual intro to make sure she's ok with it? And you know about no iceburg, right? I just ask cause I've found alot of times people don't know some of these bunny basics. My buns will get cilantro and green leaf, and sometimes a little parsley. There's other leafy greens, but those are the basics for my buns. 

I clean out Zeus' litter box every day too, just so I can be sure he's pooping normally. My other buns I'm not as worried about, but I check to make sure everyone is doing ok. It's kind of habit with me now after Zeus' problems. 

So you get the small bags of hay? I don't know if you have horse feed stores around where you are, but if you do, sometimes they will carry bales of timothy hay that you can buy. They're usually around 50 lb. and maybe $10-15, so alot cheaper than the little bags.

I was reading another topic, I think in the infirmary, and someone mentioned that buns can become dependant on gut motility drugs. Have you ever heard that?


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## Mariah (Oct 17, 2012)

Hi again 

Ok, where to begin!

I got Kiwi the simethicone today. I haven't given her any yet as I've already noticed a difference in her mood by decreasing her pellets last night and this morning  She came out to play with Papaya before I left for work this morning. I'm home now, and she came back out with Papaya again! She also did eat more hay then she normally does so I think this is a positive start!

What is your dose for simethcone? My vet told me I can give her 0.25mls up to 4 times a day. I don't want to over react even though I know I'm not, but I was going to wait a little bit before giving her the simethicone today as she's playing right now.

What probiotic do you have Zeus on now? I know you said your trying to get the Provible RB. I was looking through my book we order from at work and I didn't see that name. I want to get her a probiotic ASAP. But I don't know what the options are for bunnies.

Kiwi has had lettuce before- just the romaine kind. I know to never give iceberg! I didn't get any for her today because I don't give her lettuce frequently enough and I don't want to add any extra things to her diet until I see if it was the pellets that are causing the stomach upset. I think that makes sense?

I also bought the hay cubes. Ill give her one tonight and see what she thinks of that.

I know that rabbits can become depending on gi motility drugs ... But I'm scared to stop the cisapride... Maybe I should stop that tonight...?

My feed mill is right around the corner from me. It's actually where I get my horse supplies from. I've seen their hay and I'm not thrilled with the quality of it. I suppose it's ok but I do get a discount at my work so I just order their hay in there every week.

I'm sitting on the ground right now writing this and Papaya is running around like a crazy little dude and kiwis looking at him like he's crazy


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## JBun (Oct 17, 2012)

That's great that she's feeling well and eating more hay  I would hold off on the simethicone. I only give it to my buns if they are obviously not feeling well. When they stop eating and especially if the pooping has stopped or lessened dramatically, and if they're not moving around and seem to be feeling unwell. The article I read on dosing said to give 1-2cc per hour for 3 hours, then 1cc every 3-8 hours. I went a little less than 1cc with Zeus because he's just 3 lbs. 
Here's the article:
http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/ileus.html

And like I've mentioned, I try to avoid giving it because of the sugar in it. I'll only give it if they exihibit the above behavior, and seem unwell to me. With Kiwi seeming to feel good today, it doesn't seem like simethicone is needed. It would be more when she's in one of her 'depressed' moods, won't eat, won't come out of her cage, and especially if she's not pooping. And sometimes you can tell that they feel uncomfortable by the way they're shifting their body around while they're hunkered up in a corner refusing everything. So I would hold off on the simethicone, unless she actually seems unwell to you. No need to medicate needlessly.

You may want to continue with the gut motility meds until you've had a few days of continued good health. Then maybe you could just slowly start decreasing the amount, and just kind of wean her off of them so if she is somewhat dependant on them, her body can just gradually get used to working on it's own again. Then you can just keep an eye on how she responds to getting a little less. But you definitely don't just want to pull her off of them until she seems to be doing better.

The probiotic I've been using is Probios/Probiocin pet gel. I've been getting it from my vet just cause the same kind that I got at the feed store seemed to upset my rabbits stomach for some reason. Same exact stuff, just had gone bad or something. So I stuck with getting it from my vet. Some people use Bene-bac, but I haven't used it myself.
Here's the site for the stuff that I want to get:
http://www.nutramaxlabs.com/vet/products/Proviable-rb.aspx

You may want to hold off on trying the probiotic just to give cutting out sugars,grains, and reducing pellets a chance, and to see if cutting out these things solves the issues that Kiwi has been having. I only started Zeus back on probiotics because after a week or so, his poop wasn't going back to normal. So maybe after a week or two of this change in diet and eating more hay, if Kiwi's poop doesn't get back to all being normal, and if she is still having some really small ones too, then maybe try giving her the probiotic to see if it helps.

Yeah, probably good to hold off on the lettuce for a few days just to be sure about the effects of the decreased pellets.

Sometimes the feed stores hay can be kind of crappy. That's nice to be able to get a discount on the bagged stuff.

Lol, Papaya is such a funny boy. I can just see Kiwi watching her crazy brother and wondering what the heck his problem is.


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## Mariah (Oct 17, 2012)

Jbun, I can't thank you enough for all the help you have been! I took a nap this afternoon, and I just woke up to kiwi in her litter box eating hay. I decreased both buns pellets and I've noticed they are both consuming more hay! Yay!

I really hope the pellets was her issue! Wouldn't that be amazing if this problem that kiwi is having was solved??!!


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## Mariah (Oct 17, 2012)

Me again, I was in a rush to write my last post so I don't actually comment on everything!

Ok, I'm going to search for the probiotic now that I know what the names are but will hold off giving it to her for now. Like I said earlier, I've already noticed an improvement on kiwis attitude. She layed for a little bit after eating her dinner of pellets but she's up and playing now 

Now regarding the simethicone- it is safe to give, this I know, however; if I gave it to her tonight and she wasent gassy, would that cause an issue?

I don't know if I can give the cisapride and simethicone together (hours apart). Do you or anyone else know the anwser to this?

Here is a pic I just took of kiwi & papaya. Notice there are two toys but they both choose to play with the same one? Silly bun buns  Also, in the background is a cat bed that I just bought today for them! It was on sale for $10 so I thought, why not?


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## JBun (Oct 17, 2012)

Lol, that's so like children to want to have the others toy 

That would be great if this solves the problems with Kiwi. It's amazing how some buns have such sensitive tummies that you really have to watch their diet, and other buns can eat just about anything and it doesn't faze them. I really hope this was the answer you were needing. I'm sure it would be a big relief for you not to always have to worry about your bun.

She should be fine if you already gave her the simethicone. I just don't like to risk giving my buns extra sugars if it isn't absolutely necessary. With Kiwi already having digestive issues, you really don't want to take the chance of additional sugars messing up her digestion and causing problems again. Just use the simethicone when she's stopped eating and you can tell there's something wrong. That's when I figure the benifits outweigh the risks of using it.

I can't say for sure about the cisapride and simethicone, but I haven't heard anything about it being a problem. It seems to me that they would need to be used together at times because of being both used for GI issues. 

Those two are just so cute  I like the bed too. I've been thinking about getting one for my bun.

Ok, I'm going to attempt to post a pic of Zeus coming after his probiotic 'treat'.


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## Mariah (Oct 18, 2012)

Zeus is a little sweetie! Adorable! How old is he? Kiwi is just like too when I give her metacam or cisapride. She just licks it up eagerly from the syringe. She also eats the critical care by herself as well. She thinks they are all tasty treats!

I have not given her the simethicone. I was just wondering if I did if it could cause a stomach issue if nothing was wrong. I will hold off on it for now seeing as she was happy and bright this evening. 

I'm watching them both carefully with the bed because they both chew absolutely everything and I don't want them tearing the bed apart and eating it... I don't need anymore tummy troubles! I think I'll cover it over with fleece like I have in their x pens. I was told that if they eat that it's easier to digest because it has no fibers in it? They have been good as not eating the fleece. I noticed the odd little chew mark, here and there but nothing huge.

I usually give them each a tiny treat of pellets to put them to bed at night... Poor girl is standing on her hind legs begging for some... I must be strong and not give her any tonight...


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## JBun (Oct 18, 2012)

A few of my rabbits are big chewers too. I gave Baby a nice carpet to lay on ( low pile carpet), she chewed it up. I gave her a nice fleece to lay on, she chewed it up. So right now she has a smooth floor, a small blankie (that she chews of course), her litter box (chews that too), and a cardboard box to shred. Zeus, who is 1 1/2 by the way, is a model rabbit. He has a nice carpet, that he doesn't chew, a blankie that he'll dig at, but doesn't chew, he has lovely litter box habits, with only a few stray poops. He didn't start out that way though. He was horrible, was peeing and pooping everywhere. He was skittish, not used to being handled, didn't want me petting him, then..... he got sick and that completely changed him cause I had to hand feed him constantly. Plus when they are really sick, rabbits seem to get more docile and cooperative. So now he absolutely loves his nose rubs and is a big sweetheart. 

Awww, no pellets tonight the poor babies. You know if you really want to as a goodnight treat, you could probably give them a pinch of pellets at bedtime and it wouldn't really increase their pellet amounts, or you could refill their hay at bedtime instead and see if they like that. You could also split up their night time feeding so that you are giving part of it at dinner time and the other part at bedtime. Then you won't have to turn down your poor begging bunnies


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## agnesthelion (Oct 18, 2012)

Well I sure hope the tummy troubles are solved for poor Kiwi! It at least seems like you've gotten some great information and maybe have a hold on the process to use going forward. What a long road this has been for you and your adorable buns.
Love the pictures of them playing with the same toy. So typical!! 
Jenny, I think I just noticed your name on your avatar! haha, I've just been calling you Jbun unless I missed your name before? anyway, zeus is adorable and you gave alot of help to Mariah. It seems like the experience with your Dash (so sorry for his loss by the way) although was so sad has allowed you to help someone else


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## Mariah (Oct 18, 2012)

Jenny! I too have been calling you Jbun! That's a really good idea about the pellets. I will do half an half at every feeding  That way, they think there getting more, but really there not!

There wasent a lot of poops this morning when I woke up and Kiwi didn't eat a lot of hay overnight... I was up late with them though... I didn't put them to bed until nearly 12am! I'm going to be a tired girl today at work... But they were playing and running around, I didn't have the heart to put them to bed. So I'm hoping when I'm home from work tonight, she would have eaten more. Ill be able to get an update from my boyfriend before he goes to work. My vet is awesome too, because if something's wrong with Kiwi she will let me leave to come home and get her. I'm only 12 minutes away from work so I can be home in no time at all. Still, I hate leaving them for 11 hours while I'm at work... I need to set up a webcam or something so I can watch them when I'm away. Ha. I'm a little parnoid as you can tell!

I think this morning she would benefit from simethicone, but since I'm not home to watch her for the very first dose, I don't want to give it too her.

I don't understand why they chew everything in the house! They have a ton of chew toys but apparently the walls and furnature are more tasty


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## JBun (Oct 18, 2012)

I'm paranoid about my buns too. It's hard not to be when you've had to deal with one being sick though. A web cam would be great. Then you could see what they're doing during the day too, along with making sure they're ok.

I think with some rabbits and chewing it's all about the things they're not supposed to have. If I try to stop my buns from doing something, it's like it perks their interest and then they really have to try and do it. They can be so stubborn sometimes. Good thing they're so cute or they'd be in BIG trouble 

I'm sure they were glad to have lots of playtime last night. I would have hated to ruin their fun too. I hope Kiwi's been doing ok today. Looking forward to your update.

It's ok, you both didn't miss my name. I finally got around to putting it in there. Thought you'd like to call me something other than Jbun. One day I may actually get around to putting a picture in there too


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## Mariah (Oct 18, 2012)

Well... When I got home tonight, kiwi was laying in her cage, which is odd for her. Usually she's laying in her x pen on her nice fleese blanket. I opened up both x pens and Papaya bounded out, and ran in kiwis. Kiwi got up but stayed in her cage for a whole longer. As I write this she's out now exploring and keeps coming up to me for pets.

I don't know what to do. Should I give her simethicone? She did poop some more throughout the day and I see she was munching on her hay and did drink some water.

My routine is metacam in the morning her breakfast because I know to never give it on an empty stomach and cisapride in the night. I started weaning her off the cisapride but ill take me a bit yet to completly stop the cisapride.

I'm so sorry for all the questions but I really don't know where else to turn. Everyone thinks I'm crazy with my rabbits!

Oh, and little Papaya is fine  Thank goodness! I can't handle anther sick bun!

This is a pic I just snapped of my 3 little amigos  Trippy had to be in the pic too!







And Papaya, cause he's just too **** cute! Lol...


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## JBun (Oct 18, 2012)

Have you tried stopping the metacam. Hasn't she been on that for a while? Maybe that's causing problems. I know I can't take advil too often cause it causes problems with me. I guess you could try one dose of simethicone and see if it makes a difference. Maybe .5-1cc, or you could stick with the dose your vet recommended. Maybe once she's feeling better again you could try not giving the metacam one day and see if she does ok with it, like on a weekend when you'll be home with her to keep an eye on her. There's got to be a solution for Kiwi, it's just figuring out what it is.


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## Mariah (Oct 18, 2012)

I did try stopping the metacam and she didn't seem to do that great without it, however; I was feeding more pellets so maybe that was the cause. I could try stopping that tomorrow morning.

I just finished cleaning their cages/ litter boxes, and I fed them. I decreased kiwis pellets a bit more then this morning as well to see if that makes a difference. I also just gave her the first dose of simethicone. She licked it right up out of the syringe thankfully... Because she's a demon to hold and it would have been a fight so I'm glad she took it I'm her own accord. 

If the simethicone was going to help, how fast acting is it? I'm eagerly awaiting to hopefully see a difference... I mean I've already seen a difference with the decreased amount of pellets but she still sits all hunched up so to me that's an indication of discomfort on her part.


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## JBun (Oct 18, 2012)

You should be able to tell a difference an hour or two after you've given it. You'll be able to tell if she's acting more like her normal self. If it's not gas causing her discomfort then you probably won't see any difference in how she feels. I would only stop the metacam if she's feeling better, and it would be good if you're around so that if she starts to act like she needs it again then you'll be able to give it to her. 

It actually could take several days of a lower pellet diet before you see a significant difference in how she feels, just cause it'll take some time for the digestion to correct, if this has been the problem with her. 

Cute pictures! I love the buns with your cat. So they all get along ok?


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## Mariah (Oct 18, 2012)

Ok good to know. I close Papayas door to his x pen when I feed pellets cause he eats faster then kiwi and if I leave the door open, he will run into kiwis cage and help himself to her pellets! Lol... Such a boy! Anyways, she ate all the pellets I gave her (decreased amours again), so I opened Papayas door and he went to play. I kinda ushered kiwi to go and play too and she did! They both were in the living room. So... Another improvement tonight! She didn't lay for as long as she usually does after eating and neither did he! I think "we" may be on to something here!

I honestly had no idea I was feeding too much. I really hope this is the route cause to all my bunny troubles!

I'm still in shock to took the simethicone from the syringe! Thank goodness!

Yes, my kitty Tripp and the buns do all get along. He actually goes and lays with Kiwi and steals her hay 
Just for fun, here is a pic of my horses- Billy Goat (the bay)and Sully Man (the grey)






And another of Sully with "his" kitty 






I find a lot of horse people also have bunnies! Anyone else on her have horses? They are also a HUGE part of my daily life!


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## JBun (Oct 19, 2012)

Always good to hear Kiwi's feeling better. A permenant 'better' will be the best to hear. Hopefully that's where she's headed. You may want to just keep a mental note of whether or not she always seems worse after eating pellets.

I haven't found that simethicone is hard to give at all either. Zeus sucks it down. Buns love sugar, unfortunately, but I guess good if you're trying to get them to take their medicine.

Lol, Tripp stealing their hay is too funny! That's great that they get along. I love interspecies friendships.

Beautiful horses! Billy looks like my horse that I just had to sell, except my horse is black, but Billy looks black to me in that picture. My horse's name is Deniro. Really sweet boy. The people just came and picked him up last week. I was pretty sad watching them drive away, but he was going to a really good home, so I was glad about that.... So do you do horse jumping? I had wanted to with Nero but it never worked out.

Here's my boy soaking in the sun


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## Mariah (Oct 19, 2012)

Deniro is beautiful! What breed is he? Billy is a Percheron/ Quarter Horse and Sully is a Percheron/ TB. Can I tell I love the drafts! Yes, I ride Hunter/ Jumper. I used to jump Billy but he fractured his left twice... He's sound now but I don't change the jumping with him. I will jump Sully as well, but right now we are concentrating on our flat work. What do you ride? Funny, that we both have horses! Why did you decide to sell him?

Kiwi is defintely worse after eating her pellets. I gave simethicone again this morning because she ate and come out and layed down with her head right in the ground. She didn't eat a lot of hay overnight nor did she poop a lot more since I put her to bed last night.

What is going on with my little girl? I'm so sad for her


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## JBun (Oct 19, 2012)

Deniro is Thoroughbred/Quarter horse. I was mostly doing just trail riding with him. I had to sell him cause I have back problems and couldn't ride anymore, and it also made it really difficult for me to take care of him. So now I just have my little buns to love.

Kiwi's not going to make this easy to figure out is she? Maybe you could try cutting out pellets completely for a few days and see if that helps. Have you asked the vet at work about any of this? Has Kiwi ever had an xray done of her belly or had bloodwork done? I'm just guessing that this all might be a diet issue, but you may want to rule other things out to be sure. If there isn't anything else wrong with her belly area or some other physical problem causing all this, all I can think of is that it has to be something she's eating. I can't imagine it would be the hay, and as long as she isn't getting any treats right now, then it can't be that, so all I can think of is that it has to be the pellets or the meds that she's taking. So maybe start with removing the pellets and see what that does.


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## Mariah (Oct 19, 2012)

I too was thinking about an X-ray. Maybe she has a hair ball that's stuck which is causing the tummy upset. I had kiwi at the vet about 2 weeks ago and she did a complete exam, felt her belly, checked teeth etc and she didn't feel or see anything that would be causing kiwi to be off.

When I took her to the vet she was so stressed it took about 48 hours for her to become "her normal" again. She was refusing pellets (she then ate eventually) her oats (which I've stopped completly) and was hardly eating any hay... So, I really don't want to take her back again unless she stops eating completly and stops pooping. It was an added stress that I didn't need at that time, nor do I need it now, considering how kiwi is right now.

I'm at a loss. I'll be home soon and will check on her and post another update later.

Edited to say: I don't believe it's the hay as Papaya eats it and most days loves it. As well, I'm pretty picky about the hay I get and I always open up the bag before I bring it home and check to make sure all is ok with it.


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## Mariah (Oct 19, 2012)

Just a quick update: Kiwi is sleeping and so is Papaya, so I can't say how she is feeling just yet. I know this is their sleeping time! It's actually really cute. Papaya is in his bunny castle and kiwi is in her house too, which is just a foot stool, but she loves it!

Tons of poops in kiwis box too. This is what she did from 8am to 1pm. I added shavings over top of what she did overnight so what you see in her box is you can times it by two. I add shavings in the morning but I dump everything at night and they get fresh shavings. 

What do you think about her poop?


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## JBun (Oct 19, 2012)

Lol, how funny is it that we swap poop pictures on this forum. Actually, they look pretty perfect from the ones that I can see.

If Kiwi gets that stressed going to the vet office, I would be reluctant taking her in too. If you decide you need to bring her in and you have a big enough pet carrier, now that Kiwi and Papaya get along, you could try bringing them in the same carrier. It might be less stressful to have her buddy with her. But yeah, I think i would be doing it as a last resort with her too, and that's if nothing else seems to be working.

Yeah, I think the hay's fine. If food is the culprit, it's more likely the pellets or meds.


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## Mariah (Oct 19, 2012)

Well, I stopped the cisapride last night to see of that could be the cause. I still gave her metacam this morning because I wasent going to be here. I haven't noticed a bad difference today with not giving the cisapride. Her poops are normal today and currently as i type this she's my munching on some hay. Yay!

One of my two hair hair in their poop. I don't know who's it was because when I wasent watching they both were in the same litter box.

What do you give for hair if I can't give pineapple or papaya to lube the hair up and make it pass easier?


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## JBun (Oct 20, 2012)

Yay for poop!!! I think extra fiber from increasing their hay and decressing pellets, is supposed to be the best thing for hair in the poop. I think just make sure they always have plenty of hay to eat and you should be good. 

That might be good stopping the cisapride to see if that might be causing her problems. Keep an eye on that poop  You'll want to make sure that her digestion doesn't slow down too much. I hope right now they are both having a ton of fun running around and playing


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## Mariah (Oct 20, 2012)

Yes! I just put them to bed but they were running around the living room together doing blinkies and the bunny 500 

Kiwi pooped a fair amount from when I cleaned her litter box around 730 tonight and even after I fed dinner around 8pm.

She was just laying after her dinner so I did give simethicone. I would like to say its been helping over the past couple days (just since yesterday) that I've been using it.

No problem on giving lots of fresh hay. I didn't see any hair in poops today so that's positive.

Both buns were very happy bunnies tonight  And again, I'm going to be so tired for work in the morning... Yes, I work every Saturday..  But hey, if my buns are happy, I'm happy, so ill sacrifice my sleep for them 

When are you bunnies most active Jenny? Mine vary from 10pm ish to around 1am in the morning.

And ha, yes, I post pictures of my bunnies poo


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## Mariah (Oct 20, 2012)

645am: Kiwi ate her breakfast, layed for barley no time at all and is now running around! Woooohoooo!!! She also ate lots of hay overnight- about half her hay rake full! 

She didn't really poop a lot more since 12am, however; I think she's on a new popping schedule. She tends to do a lot from 8pm-11pm and then again sometime in the morning between 8am and 1pm while I'm at work.

Here's hoping I come home to lots of poop today!!! 

Happy Saturday everyone!!!!!


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## JBun (Oct 20, 2012)

That's so great!!! I bet it's a big relief when you see her running around and playing. Let's hope she's on a streak of feeling happy and healthy 

That's about when my buns are most active too, morning and night. It might have something to do with that being their feeding time as well. They sleep most of the day, and that's also when they poop the least.


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## Mariah (Oct 20, 2012)

I've come home to loads of poop in her box and I can defintely tell she was eating her hay! I'm just so excited!

They are both sleeping right now, and I think I may take a "bunny" nap too! 

I wish I could get a pic of papaya in his blue bunny castle. He's too cute!


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## Mariah (Oct 20, 2012)

Ok... Because I think my bunnies are adorable, here they are!

I woke kiwi from her sleep, she's not too impressed with me!






And Papaya in his bunny castle:


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## JBun (Oct 20, 2012)

Love Papaya in his castle, what a cutie  I think you're right, Kiwi looks very unhappy at being woken up, lol. Glad they're doing so good today.

My buns got playtime outside today. They had a blast playing in the fall leaves


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## Mariah (Oct 21, 2012)

You are so brave to take your buns outside! I really want too and have considered getting a enclosure for them for outside, however; I'm just too nervous!

When I first for Papaya, Kiwi jumped on top of Papaya cage and peed and pooped on him. I had never seen her jump up there before so imagine my surprise when I came around the corner, saw Kiwi on top the cage and Papayas poor little head soked in urine... Then I look in an kiwi had pooped at what like seemed like a million poos all through the top of his cage! Poor Papaya!

Then another day acouple days later, I come home and there was a leak in the ceiling and of course it was all over poor little Papaya!

I always joke that if I took him outside, a hawk would probably get him... Funny, but not funny at all!

So basically what I'm trying to say is that I can't take my buns outside because I'm too nervous something would happen to them.

Tonight, kiwi is well. She ate and played! No meds needed today! The last med I gave was the simethicone yesterday evening and nothing since! I'm so happy


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## JBun (Oct 21, 2012)

I have a side yard that my buns can't escape from, but I live kind of in the mountains, so we have lots of predators around, not to mention the occasional neighborhood dog on the loose, so I'm with my buns the whole time, but they just love it. It makes them really tired too 

Wow! A whole day without meds. That's so great. Way to go Kiwi!!!

Poor Papaya must have been wondering why Kiwi was peeing on him. I bet that was fun to clean up


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## Mariah (Oct 21, 2012)

Well Papaya got Kiwi back eventually when his hormones came into play. He would spray right into her cage... Kiwi was not happy about this. Since his neuter he's only had two per accident which didn't include spraying. Since then, the spraying has stopped as has kiwi peeing on him! Thank goodness!

Ya, you live in Utah. What's that like? I've never been there! I'm in Canada and live in the country. So lots of trees and farmland  I love it except for the winters! We have had lots of rain over the past couple of weeks so it make it damp and chilly... 

Buns are now in bed. I've done what you said and saved some pellets for now, so they are happily munching away and will have sweet bunny dreams tonight


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## Mariah (Oct 21, 2012)

What good little bunnies I have! They pretty much ate all their hay overnight!! 

Now they are having some playtime together until I leave to go see my horses later on


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## qtipthebun (Oct 21, 2012)

I love the pictures of them! Papaya is SO cute! I just want to kiss those little ears! So glad Kiwi is feeling better!!


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## JBun (Oct 21, 2012)

So what diet have you ended up doing with Kiwi? It sounds like it is working out well for her. Poor Papaya, is he cut out of treats too because of Kiwi's problems. Just because of the GI problems with Zeus, I'm more nervous about giving my other rabbits treats, even if they've never had any tummy troubles. The bravest I get is to give a little baby carrot each day.

It's pretty nice living here. We have plenty of trees but it's also a semi desert, so it can get a little hot and dry in the summer. Nothing like Arizona though. I'm in the foothills outside of the city, so it's nice not to be in the city but close enough to get to the shops. It's not a big city, and we do have farmland within 15 min. of the city. I'm not a big fan of the cold though. I pretty much freeze all winter long. 

I hope you had a fun day with your horses


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## Mariah (Oct 21, 2012)

Qtipthebun- thank you! His ears defintely give him a different but cute look!

Jenny- kiwi gets a little less then 1/3 cup of pellets a day but divided into two feedings of course. She also has unlimited Timothy hay and water. I want to start giving her Quakers oats as a treat again... I don't think that was causing her issues but I really won't know for sure until I try.

Papaya is on 1/4 cup of pellets a day divided into two feedings. I've also cut out the oats from him as well. Unlimited Timothy hay and water.

Now question: the Timothy hay cubes. Is this just meant as a treat?
Is it safe to give without causing a tummy ache? They both really like the cubes but I only give it to them for less then 5 minutes and I take it away from them. I'm scared of causing an upset!

Horses were really good today despite the cold and wind! I had to go searching in their field for Billy's halter. They like to play halter pull and Sully had ripped it off Billy's head... All the clips still done up. Little monkeys!


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## Mariah (Oct 21, 2012)

Sorry me again. So I think I'm being over parnoid. Kiwi has eaten some hay since I've been home and she's pooped. But, the buns are not hanging out together like they usually do. Kiwi is in Papayas pen, and Papaya is in kiwis pen.

I'm confused? Normally they are together!

And Jenny, what do you think about kiwis diet?


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## JBun (Oct 21, 2012)

I would say that as long as she's eating and pooping normally, then it's probably fine that they don't want to be with each other. There are times when Dakota and Flopsy don't like to lay by each other to snuggle. I think our buns are a bit like us and just need time apart sometimes.

You may want to wait on the oats until she's had several consecutive days or even a week or two, of eating good and no health issues. If you want to give treats it would be a lot better to start giving her leafy greens. I would start gradually, one at a time, just to make sure that she's ok with them. If it ends up being the pellets that were the cause of her problems, it would be because pellets have grain and sugar in them, so giving her oats might just start causing problems again. So give veggies for treats instead, and just give it some time before you try anything like oats, and even then I wouldn't give more than a pinch of them, but be aware that if her problems were GI issues, and if she is susceptible to them, then giving extra grains, sugars, starches, and carbs, could just start this all over again, it could even be worse next time. If after a while you do try introducing oats or maybe a piece of carrot, I would start with very small portions(like 3 pieces of oats or a very tiny piece of carrot) and keep an extra close eye on any changes in her poop, because that will be your first sign something is wrong, even before she starts showing any signs of feeling sick. I would think Zeus was better, and all I tried to do was gradually change his food to a new one, and he would get sick again.

Kiwi's diet sounds good, unless she keeps having tummy upset, then you may need to decrease the pellets more. But as long as she seems to be feeling ok and her poops look normal with none of those really small ones, then I think you can stick with what you are doing. And you could start adding the green leafy veggies in. With Papaya, unless you think he needs that amount of pellets, he could probably be ok with more. My Pip is only 2 1/2 lbs. and she only gets a 1/4 cup. So if he weighs more than that, and since he wasn't having stomach problems, you could probably give him 1/3 to a half cup a day, depending on his weight. And he can be getting veggies too. If you want to do treats with him and he hasn't had any problems, then it might be ok, just don't let Kiwi see 

Those hay cubes should be just fine as long as it's just hay in there and nothing else added. 

Lol, I can totally see your horses doing that. I found that no matter how hard I tried, Deniro would find ways to get into trouble. When he was down at my brothers' property, there was a bin of grain in the tack shed, and the shed was in the horse pen. Well apparently it was too irresistable, so Deniro ripped the lock off, broke in the tack shed, ate all the grain, and chewed up the saddles. Naughty, naughty horse. He was in big trouble after that


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## Mariah (Oct 22, 2012)

Hahaha, Deniro! Horses are such funny animals! My boys are best buddies. They get themselves in trouble. At one barn I was at, Billy was letting Sully out of his stall everynight! We had to put a extra clip on Billy's door because of it 

Kiwi did poop a lot tonight, as did Papaya. Her poops look normal so I am very happy. I watch them like hawks because its like I don't believe that kiwi is better...! I'm being over caucious and I will jump on the simethicone at the first sign I see that she's not well again.

I will hold off on the oats and lettuce too. It was just wishful thinking on my part. I feel bad that I can't give her treats, but her health and well being is more important. I will wait a couple of weeks, and then maybe introduce lettuce slowly again.

For their weights- I know Kiwi weighs more then Papaya so that's why he gets less pellets then Kiwi. I will have to check on their actual weights when I'm back at work on Tue. 

Another reason for decreasing Papayas pellets was he was having extra cecotrophs that he wasent eating. Now since the decrease, I've only noticed a few. He had extra today and I picked it up (stinky!!) and he ate it from the paper towel I had it on. Do you know the reason for this?

Ill let you know both their weights, and then maybe you can confirm what I should be feeding? Well, for Papaya anyways as kiwi I don't think can have anymore because of her sensitive stomach. 

Would there be any kind of downfall for Papaya if he stayed on the decreased amount of pellets if I'm not feeding enough for what he weighs?


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## JBun (Oct 22, 2012)

Your horses sound too smart for their own good 

No oats is probably the best thing, but I was saying that starting leafy greens would probably be fine now if you feel ok with it. Maybe give her another day or two just to be sure she really is feeling well, then go ahead and try a little bit of leafy greens. Cilantro is my rabbits favorite, but if she's used to the lettuce you could start with that and see how it goes.

I don't know about the extra cecals. The reasons I have heard were too rich a diet in pellets, bun is too fat to reach them to eat, and young bunnies with short attention spans. So if he's still pretty young and hyper that could be it, or it could have been the pellets. How old is he anyways? I know that unlimited pellets are recommended until about 6 months, unless there are weight issues. If he seems to be leaving less cecotropes around with decreased pellets, then maybe that's what he needed. You just want to be sure that he maintains a healthy weight with the decreased pellets. It would be good to get a starting weight on him, then after a few weeks of the decreased pellets, weigh him again and see where he's at. I definitely wouldn't increase Kiwi's, unless she starts loosing too much weight. But I think the amount she's getting now is probably good.


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## Mariah (Oct 22, 2012)

Papaya is 7 months old. With all my babies that I've had, I've never done the unlimited pellets. I've always been to worried that they wouldn't eat their hay if I did unlimited pellets as babies.

Maybe I will increase Papaya since he hasent had any tummy troubles. I only decreased his because I was worried i was over feeding since he weighs less then Kiwi. Ill get weighs on them tomorrow.

Good bunnies overnight. They ate most of their hay but they are a bit ticked off with me this morning because I slept in! They didn't get breakfast till 1045! Lol... Mama needs her sleep too!

And are you saying its ok to give oats to kiwi in a couple of weeks? I've been inconsistent with giving lettuce but she always got oats as she came that way from the breeder.

With the extra cecotrophs, I don't think his diet is to rich. I've just been keeping a eye on them. I think his attention span is very short


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## JBun (Oct 22, 2012)

Yeah, my buns aren't too happy with me either when I sleep in. I think they just sit there waiting for me to show up and give them their breakfast, no matter how late I am. Deniro was the same. He would sit in the corner of his pen, just waiting and waiting for me to show up and feed him.

The oats are really up to you. If it was me, I would be too nervous about her getting sick again. So I wouldn't give them to her again. But I know how you feel, cause they go absolutely bonkers for oats. If you do try them again, I would wait a few weeks to make sure she really is all better. Personally, I feel much safer giving leafy greens as treats cause they're healthy and I don't worry about them getting sick eating them.

If Papaya weighs more than 3 lbs, you could probably feed him 1/3 cup pellets, same as Kiwi. If he starts getting fat then you would of course decrease it.

It sounds like they are both doing really well. What a relief not to have Kiwi sick almost everyday


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## Mariah (Oct 22, 2012)

Kiwi is acting "funny" again tonight. She's laying down more then normal. She will take pellets from me. I gave her two just to see if she would eat and she did. She pooped this morning after I cleaned her litter box. All normal looking and normal size. Nothing since but that's normal for her to not poop a lot or any during the hours of 1-6pm 7pm ish. I'm just monitoring her right now. I guess that's all I can do at this point. If she dosent eat her pellets tonight then I will be very worried.

There's no way Papaya weights more then 3 pounds. I'm pretty sure when he was neutered he was just over 1kg so roughly 2.3 pounds- I think! Ill check tomorrow and post again. I can probably even bring a scale home with me tomorrow and get updated weighs on each of them.

No oats for Kiwi  No treats at all right now.

I'm hoping her acting "funny" is nothing...


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## Mariah (Oct 22, 2012)

This is what they are doing right now... I'm worried about Kiwi.


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## Mariah (Oct 22, 2012)

Does she look uncomfortable? Or just resting? I think I am making myself parnoid and nervous over with what could be nothing. I just don't know with kiwi...


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## JBun (Oct 22, 2012)

When Zeus was sick he would sit in the back corner of his cage. If he ever did lay down, it wouldn't be for very long. It's like he would lay down then get back up right away, then try again and get back up, like his tummy was making it uncomfortable to lay down. I wouldn't worry about it unless she doesn't eat tonight. Maybe she's just feeling very relaxed.

If Papaya is under 3 lbs. then 1/4 cup is probably the right amount of pellets. You'll just want to make sure he maintains a healthy weight.

I hope kiwi's just chillin' out and that she's ok and eats tonight.


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## Mariah (Oct 22, 2012)

That is how kiwi was acting before I decreased her pellets. She wouldn't sit in her cage though. She has a spot where there's not fleese and its bare concrete where she would do that.

Tonight she just keeps doing the dead bunny flop. Papayas being a good little brother and he keeps coming and sitting with her. Does the dead bunny flop mean she's relaxed? She's scaring me! Ahhhhh!!

I'm so parnoid now that every little thing she does I second guess it.
I did see a tiny blinky tonight from her so she must be feeling semi ok... After she ate (yes she ate her dinner) she did the dead bunny flop so I panicked and gave her simethicone...  I don't know if she actually needed it as the symptoms you described with Zeus are not what she's doing.

She pooped about 1/2 hour after the simethicone which were all normal looking.

I sometimes wonder why I put myself through this and it's all because I love them so much and want the very best for them.

You put my mind as ease (a little bit anyways) Jenny


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## JBun (Oct 23, 2012)

She could have had a bit of a tummy upset. You could always try a no pellet diet for a week to see if that helps.


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## agnesthelion (Oct 23, 2012)

I sure hope everything is fine. I know what you mean about second guessing yourself. Overanalyzing is what i do best. I'm not dealing with a sick bun but even through bonding I worry about the littlest things. 

I think it sounds like you have a good diet plan for kiwi. I sure hope everything is fine and you can finally rest easy again.

Your horses are beautiful. Yours too jenny! I know nothing about horses but I think they are magnificent animals.

Oh and I agree Mariah about being nervous to take your buns outside. I think the same thing! I saw a video on Americas Funniest Home Videos like several years ago before I even had Agnes and Archie. This little boy had his hamster outside and he set the hamster down on top of its cage and a hawk swooped down and took the hamster. The boy was standing right there. I was horrified! I thought, this is suppose to be funny??? I've been scarred about small animals outside ever since.......


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## Mariah (Oct 23, 2012)

Well Kiwi seemed ok tonight but she wasent running around in the living room as much as she was two days ago. I'm thinking that it may be because my boyfriends been home sick for two days... So he has been in the living room with dog... He and Bella (the dog) were in the bedroom tonight so the living room was quiet, but maybe since they were in the living room all day yesterday they weren't quite sure if it was safe? I don't know... See how I over think these situations? Ugh!

Both buns were pooping, peeing, and eating their hay tonight. So I guess I shouldn't be too worrried... ? However, I still am!

I just put them to bed for the night, so really there isn't anything more I can do... Ill just have to see how they are in the morning. I'm happy I don't start work tomorrow until 1pm so that will give me the morning to watch them and let them have playtime and hopefully a good run before I leave.

*Fingers crossed* for the morning...

I really would love to try a no pellet diet but how would I do that? She would hear me giving Papaya his pellets and be a very mad bunny with me...

Lisa- thank you for the compliment on my horses! They are my other thing that I consistenly stress about! It was 21 degrees today so I took off their blankets cause they were sweating underneath. Now it's raining so I'm stressed that tomorrow they will be outside in the rain! (They are in stalls at night) They will be fine but I hate having them wet as its only going to be 12 degrees tomorrow. Bah!


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## Mariah (Oct 23, 2012)

Update this morning: TONS of normal looking poop for kiwi! I wasent concerned about Papay, but his was great too!

I fed them breakfast and after that kiwi was doing the bunny 500 in the living room! Then she was exhausted so came and did a huge bunny flop while I was cleaning their houses! *relief*

They are having bunny playtime before I go to work. It's a crummy day here. Horrific downpours of rain!

Question: why does kiwi dig so much? Where does she think she's going??!!

My horses are having their turn out in the arena so they aren't wet either!

Terrific Tuesday so far! 

Edited to say- Lisa, the hamster thing is not funny at all! That's terrible...


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## JBun (Oct 23, 2012)

It's cold and rainy here too 

The bf and his dog could easily be why Kiwi wasn't acting normal. Most rabbits don't like changes in their environment. As long as she's eating, drinking, and pooping normally, I wouldn't worry. I only get concerned about my rabbits if their eating and pooping changes.

I don't think Kiwi would be very happy with you either if you put her on a no pellet diet, considering how excited you say she is when you feed them to her. It was more of a last resort idea if she still wasn't feeling well.

I think the digging thing is just their bunny instincts kicking in. I have a few diggers and it can sure make for a big litter box mess. That's about when I make a screen cover so there's no more litter box digging. I'll give them a fleece blankie to dig and rearrange instead, much cleaner. Poor babies, I ruin all their fun 

Thanks Lisa, I miss my big boy. He was a very sweet horse.
Mariah, I know how you feel about the horses. I hated when the temps dropped suddenly, then I would have to try and figure out if Nero was going to need his blanket or not.

By the way, is there anything cuter than Papaya standing guard over Kiwi while she's not feeling well. What a sweet boy!!


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## Imbrium (Oct 23, 2012)

what sort of leafy greens are you feeding? if the simethicone is helping, she could be having gas problems... there are some things on the cruciferous veggie list that surprised me at first (I used to think it was just cabbage, brussel sprouts, broccoli and cauliflower but kale, arugula, watercress and collard greens are on the list as well - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruciferous_vegetables )

from everything I've read about simethicone, the worst thing it can possibly do for bunnies is "nothing" - in other words, if it doesn't help with whatever the problem is, it still won't hurt.

this is the probiotic I got for my bunnies - http://www.leithpetwerks.com/prodpage.cfm?prod_code=MS510
I've only given it twice, though (a couple days before and one day after their spays since the instructions said to give two doses three days apart). gaz LOVES it... nala will eat a little bit and then she's DONE, so I never did get her to take an entire dose.

my bunnies dig at the fleece in their condo a ton, dunno why but it makes 'em happy so I just go with it.

have you ever tried the sherwood forest pellets? those might be better for kiwi if she's got issues with pellets, since they don't have any added sugars or molasses. if you do decide to give a "no pellet" diet a try I recommend messaging whitelop, who's been doing a ton of research on it (and over-analyzing it like so many of us do with everything). I would stay away from the oats, as bunnies don't metabolize carbs that well and oats can cause tummy issues and I believe the rolled oats can also cause gas.

if you want treats, you could try edible flowers like dandelions, roses, etc. I have a very small herb garden, so mine also get mint, basil, fennel and orange mint in "treat" quantities. treats don't have to be sugary to be special - they just have to be something the bunnies don't get a ton of that tastes nummy.

I think it would also benefit both you and kiwi to try to find a way to relax and not worry about every little thing. she most likely bonded to you even more after citrus passed away and is tuned-in to your moods - it's possible she senses your stress and worrying sometimes and it affects her. I know you can't just decide to not be stressed out any more (I've got anxiety problems, so I know all about how hard it can be... even if you know your worrying is irrational, as mine often is), but perhaps if you started doing some relaxation exercises right when you came home to try to relax some and at least temporarily shove the worries into the back of your mind...


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## Mariah (Oct 23, 2012)

So this morning kiwi was fine after her pellets. No issues what's so ever. Tonight, well for the past two nights I've noticed she lays after she eats her dinner. I want to say that she looks uncomfortable. So, I think I need to decrease her pellets even more and see if that changes her behaviour. She is so excited at feeding time. She jumped up so fast tonight. She was in Papayas house when she heard it and ran so fast she was skidding on the concrete. I only want what's best for her, so another decrease it is.

Jennifer- I have not been feeding any leafy greens. The only thing she's ever had was romaine lettuce and carrots. I was never consistent with giving her either one so right now because of her tummy troubles, I'm afraid to give her anything other then hay and her pellets.

I've never tried the Sherwood rabbit food. I've never seen it here in Canada... Do either of you guys know if it comes to Canada?

And Jenny, I know! Papaya is too darn cute with kiwi! I think it's his airplane ears!!

Kiwi is the digger. So far Papaya has not picked up this habit. I don't mind the digging on the fleese, it's when she goes in the litter box and throws shavings everywhere!! Messy girl! She especially likes to do this right after everything has been freshly cleaned... 

Good to know about the simethicone. I think I'll give her a dose tonight. I'm a smoker (bad I know) so im outside right now. I'll check on kiwi when I get back in and see if she's moved from where she was before. 

Yes, I have very high anxiety when it comes to my rabbits- well all my pets in general. I'm trying to relax. This board helps me with that because someone always writes and gives me new things to try with kiwi. It's kinda like a moral support group for bunnies 

I do think kiwi is bonded to me. Papaya, not so much, but I'm working on him too! 

The probiotic I can't get at my work which I find surprising because we carry everything! Ill have to check out a pet store and see what we have here in Canada.

I saw my horses tonight quickly after work. Blankets are now on for tomorrow since its suposted to rain again... Booo for cold weather!!

Edited to say: I pretty much kicked the bf out of the living room and told him to get to work! We live in a small basement apt so sometimes it's hard to have the same routine for the buns cause his shifts flip flop from days to afternoons.


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## JBun (Oct 24, 2012)

When Kiwi's laying down after eating, are you sure she's just not relaxing? My rabbits will lay down and relax for a little bit, after eating. If she's laying down for a really long time, then I guess it could still be something wrong with her. 

The Sherwood Forest pellets are a good brand. You can order them online, but you may want to wait til you've figured out Kiwi's problem, before trying to change her food. You may want to try a no pellet diet for a few days just to see if it really is the pellets causing problems. If you want to try the sherwood pellets, they will send you a free sample for just the cost of shipping.

If the litter box digging is driving you crazy like it was with me and my buns, you could try making a grid to put over the shavings. Things stay so much cleaner and it's so much easier.

You can sometimes find probiotics at a feed store or horse tack shop, if you're wanting to try it. You can also sometimes find them at petstores, especially the bigger ones like Petsmart, but it would probably be in the cat section. Usually the petstores have Bene bac. The one that you would want at the feed store is a large syringe type tube that is a gel. I get Probios.


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## Mariah (Oct 24, 2012)

I will look into the probiotic. I just have some many things that I'm trying to do with my buns, I don't have enough time to actually get to a store to look!

I don't know if Kiwi is just relaxing or not. It could just be me being over parnoid because she's been so "off" I don't know what's normal behavior for her anymore. Ugh.

After I gave the simethicone tonight he seemed to bounce back to "Kiwi". So I don't know if its my mind or what, but the simethicone seemed to help?

Now, of course I have another problem. Papaya was sneezing tonight.
No discharge. He's eating, drinking, pooping and peeing, but I feel nauseated about this. What if he has a cold? I've been through chronic sneezing with kiwi as a baby and it wasent fun. He also seemed more sedate tonight. 

I won't be doing any food changes with kiwi for a while. It makes me nervous about having her food shipped because what if for some reason it dosent ship on time and I run out of food? That's another nightmare I don't want to deal with at this present time.


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## Imbrium (Oct 24, 2012)

he could just be sneezing from weather changes or a little bit of dust - mine sneeze a little every now and then. if there's no discharge and he's eating/drinking/pooping/peeing normally, I wouldn't worry 

forgot you were in canada when I suggested the sherwood... I'm pretty sure they'd ship there, but not sure how much pricier it would be.

I think if you're decreasing pellets and it's going well, you could try leafy greens a little more if you re-introduce them gradually.

I second the litter box grid idea. http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=53690&forum_id=93 - 1/3 of the way down the first page is info on building a grid... you should be able to find the stuff for it in the lighting diffuser section of a hardware store. I swear by the grids - no digging in the boxes; no bunny butts standing in their own waste. keeps things clean and tidy and the grid can be sprayed clean with a hose 1-2x a week to get any urine off of it.


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## Mariah (Oct 24, 2012)

And I do wonder about shipping food across the boarder. Maybe when I find the time, i could contact the Sherwood and see if they have any suppliers in Canada.

So this morning, buns were out playing. I usually usher them into their house before I leave. Well guess what? Something has freaked kiwi out and I can't get her back in her house! She keeps running away from me! Little defiant bunny! Just like her mom! Lol... Now I'm going to be late for work... Oh dear...

Has this ever happened to anyone where their bunny is scared of something (who knows what??) and they will not go back in their house??

Kiwi seems fine this morning, other then the fact that I can't get her back in her house. No sneezing from little Papaya... Yet. They were having some bunny snuggles this morning after breakfast:


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## Imbrium (Oct 24, 2012)

my bunnies live full-time in a penned in living room, so I never have to worry about ushering them back home... sometimes they can be a royal pain to catch to get them out if they're really sprint-y that day or are hiding on the bottom floor of the condo where they know it's difficult for me to reach them, though.

they seem to come right up to the carrier when I'm in no hurry, but the minute I'm trying to catch them quickly (because I already told the neighbor I was bringing them outside or because we have to go to the vet), they get difficult about it.


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## Mariah (Oct 24, 2012)

Kiwis issue this morning was like she had seen a ghost! Cause she's usually pretty good if I shake her pellets or grab the hay and crinkle it, she usually comes running. I eventually got her back in her x pen, but she was scared about something. She was looking everywhere at "something" but I have no idea what... The same thing happened about a month or so ago after I had put her to bed. She was running back and forth in her cage, thumping and throwing everything around. I have no idea what set her off. She was definitely scared of something.

And funny story, I guess she really didn't want to be in her x pen this morning. She broke out!! I got home and checked on her right away and her door was open. The bf was home and I was like WTH? And he's like oh, i thought you left her out! I was like i would have given you a heads up If I was going to do that. Keep in mind, I've never done that before!

I guess she had a good time while I was at work! It dosent look like she got into anything... I guess we shall see. Bad kiwi!! Papaya was probably like, hey... Can you let me out too? She didn't of course.

Silly bunny!


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## Mariah (Oct 24, 2012)

Oh, and I got their last weights when I had them at the clinic.

Kiwi was: 3.74 lbs on Sept 22/12

Papaya was: 2.37 lbs on Aug 30/12

If I can get my act together, I'm going to bring the cat scale home with me tomorrow night and get up to date weights.

Jenny- with these weights can you please tell me what I should be feeding? I've attached a pic of the back of the martins adult Timothy based pellets that I feed. Let me know if you need anymore info please!


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## JBun (Oct 24, 2012)

Poor Kiwi  Probably heard something scary. It'll be nice when her and Papaya are fully bonded and they can snuggle together for comfort.

Watch out, now Kiwi knows how to escape it only means trouble  Now she just needs to figure out how to help Papaya escape and they'll have a grand old time running around the house.

With the pellets, unfortunately I don't read french, however, I assume they are your typical timothy adult pellets. I had to stop feeding them to Zeus because they were still causing problems with his stomach because of the sugars and grains in them, after he recovered from GI stasis. Once I get his poops back to normal, I will probably try to reintroduce them to him very very slowly and a very limited amount, to see how he does. As long as his poops stay normal, I'll keep giving them to him, but right now he still gets those tiny poops, so I know his digestive system isn't fully recovered. I'm giving him probiotics every day to help it get better, but it just takes some time.... If Kiwi's poops really are normal and she doesn't have any of the tiny ones anymore, it would make me think that her digestion is doing ok with what she's getting. If you still feel that she sometimes is feeling unwell, you could try cutting back to a 1/4 cup a day for her. With Papaya's weight being under 3 lbs. he probably would be fine with 1/4 cup too. Unfortunately the only way to know if that's going to be a good amount, is by them maintaining their weight and body condition. If Papaya starts to feel a little boney then you would need to increase the pellet amount. It always just depends on the individual rabbit. Dakota weighs about 5 lbs.(or is supposed to anyways), but she puts on weight really easy, so she only gets 1/4 cup pellets each day, and she's still a little chucky even at that small amount.

If you really do think Kiwi is still having tummy issues and that her laying down isn't normal behavior, really the only way to know if it's the pellets causing the problems, would be to try no pellets for a few days. If her pooping and eating is still good, then she might be just fine, but she's also your bun and you know alot better than I do, what would or wouldn't be normal for her


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## Imbrium (Oct 24, 2012)

aww, poor little kiwi! I bet she forgot all about it during her escape-romp, though 

did you figure out how she got out? Nala recently learned how to climb a 48'' tall playpen! I was stumped as to how she was getting out of an enclosure I'd thought was escape proof... until I caught her climbing out!


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## Mariah (Oct 24, 2012)

I cut kiwi back to the 1/4 cup today. Well half of the 1/4 for dinner. No laying down! She came running out of her pen when she was done eating to see what I was doing! I was cleaning the kitty litter box but apparently that was really interesting for kiwi! Lol... I'll keep her on this amount and see how she does. Papaya does feel abit boney to me, so I'm going to increase his pellets slightly (currently he's getting the 1/4 cup for the day so ill do a little more) and see if that helps.

Sorry about the French version! Here is the English version. I just assumed you would need the guaranteed analysis which was in English!






And kiwi escaped by chewing on the NIC panels and I guess if she yanks on them hard enough with her teeth the binder clips that hold the door close will open... Any suggestions on what else to use to keep the door closed? Here is a pic:


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## Imbrium (Oct 24, 2012)

you can get small carabiners dirt cheap in the hardware section of walmart here and I've found them at home depot as well so I imagine any similar hardware or all-purpose stores in canada would have them. they're quick and easy to open yourself but impossible for someone who lacks opposable thumbs - I use them to secure all the doors on my NIC condo


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## Mariah (Oct 24, 2012)

Ok! That is a good idea! Ill have to get some this weekend! I can't have kiwi breaking out of her x pen everyday!

I saw two poops that were held together by hair from kiwi...
She is eating hay so I'm hoping that pushes the hair through since I can't give pineapple juice cause of the sugars... *worried mama*


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## Imbrium (Oct 24, 2012)

I see poops like that periodically (they stand out because they tend to get caught on the litter box grid). as long as it's only a strand or two of hair connecting them, there's not a lot of sets of connected poops and she's eating/pooping normal amounts, there's absolutely nothing to worry about - ingesting small amounts of hair is normal and it doesn't get digested so it just passes out. the fact that it IS coming out is a good sign


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## JBun (Oct 24, 2012)

What a clever bun  That's usually a boy thing to do, just muscle your way through! 

Some other things that might work to secure the panels, are trigger snaps that you use on horse reins for easy unclipping of the reins, and also just regular snaps. You can usually find them at a feed store or tack shop, and sometimes at a hardware store.

The pellet ingredients are pretty basic for timothy pellets. If she keeps having problems it would be because of the molasses and barley in there, maybe. Oh wait, do you see any molasses listed. That's actually pretty surprising. Almost all rabbit food has molasses added. So that's pretty good for these. The only bad thing in there would be the grains and maybe the soybeans. But that's good, no added sugars at least.

Nothing but brushing is really going to cut down on hair in the poop, but if rabbits are getting sufficient fiber in their diets, then that will help to prevent GI slowdown.


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## Mariah (Oct 25, 2012)

Your right, I don't see any molasses added! This is good! Thank you for working out how much to feed. Much appreciated!

And honestly, any excuse to go to a tack store/ feed mill  That I can do on Saturday. Hopefully we don't have any break outs until I can fix her door! Funny thing is, she probably broke out right after I left for work LATE I might add! She was chewing on the door when I left but I had to get to work. I felt bad leaving her, but I need to keep my job! 

My first bunny Star, would ALWAYS break out of her house! She would bust through the top. My brother woke me up one night, and was like "ummmm your bunny is in the bathroom" LOL 

No sneezing from Papaya today so maybe something was just in the air that was bugging him. 

Jennifer- good to know! She pooped more and they were not stuck together so I just filed that in my head but I'm not too worried about it 

One of you brought up bonding- now do I know they are ready to be left alone together? When I'm home they are out and playing. No fights for a while. Not sure how long though. They lay together, eat together, drink together and poop and pee together! How can I be certain they won't fight when I'm not home? I never had his worry with Kiwi and Citrus. They were lovers from day 1. Never ever ever fought. I miss my little Citrus 

And just on a side note- Kiwi was medication free today


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## JBun (Oct 25, 2012)

No meds? That's great! 

I loved going to tack shops. Much better than clothes or grocery shopping 

If you have any spare zip ties, you could zip tie the panels shut, or if you have some wire, you could use that. You'll just want to make sure the buns can't touch the sharp ends of the wire. Or paper clips might even work.

With the bonding thing. Maybe you could open up the panels between their two cages while you are home to see how they do having mutual access to each others area.

How do you like having cement floors for your buns. Mine have a cement floor too and I really like it cause they can't ruin it, and it seems to naturally file down their nails so I don't have to clip as often.


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## Imbrium (Oct 25, 2012)

whee! no meds for kiwi!  I'm SO glad she's improved and gotten weaned off of them - crossing my fingers in hopes she continues to seem happy and leave you lots of poops.


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## Mariah (Oct 25, 2012)

I know! No meds! I am so happy! Buns are in good spirits this morning! 

I like having the concrete. The area I had them in had carpet but I removed it cause kiwi liked to chew on it.. So then I had a big thick blanket in there. Papaya liked to pee on it... So then I had a mat in there. Both buns chewed on it... So I followed the advise I got on here and used fleese. So far, so good! 

I'm glad my buns will walk on the concrete. Citrus wouldn't, so I had to make a bunny path everytime I let him out. The whole house is carpeted other then that one section of concrete. That's why I don't want kiwi getting out! I'm afraid she will chew the carpet when I'm not home!

I've got a 10.5 hour shift today. The bf knows that kiwi is not suposted to be out so I've given him strict instructions to check her clips on her door before he leaves for work at 2! Lol, boys are so silly sometimes!


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## Mariah (Oct 25, 2012)

There were no break outs today from kiwi! Yay! I think she was having a "moment" and she needed out of her run. I'm still going to look into better clips for her door, cause I can't have her running around the house unattended, even though I would love that. My house is bunny proofed in the way of wires, but there's so many tasty things to chew on... Wooden cubards, wooden tablet, the carpet... Too many dangers for bunnies!

For bonding, I could take down the middle part but its such a pain in the butt to do so! I would have to cut all the zip ties that are holding the middle part together- which is fine, but then I would have to zip tie them all back together when I'm not home for the first little while until I can trust that they won't fight. It's only been 2 weeks (I checked my calander) since their last fight. Maybe it's too soon? Opinions?

No meds again today for kiwi  She seems ok. Papaya is pooping up at storm tonight since I've cleaned their litter boxes. Kiwi not so much. I'm trying not to panic, because she is active, has pooped a little bit, ate her dinner and I've seen her eat a bit of hay. She pooped tons during the day too... So I'm sure she's fine. I'm doing some relaxing exercises as I write this. *breath in deeply, breath out* My vet told me to do this when I start panciking about the buns. Ha. She knows how I get


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## Imbrium (Oct 25, 2012)

the divider doesn't have any grid connectors, right? just zipties?

you could cut the ties on one end of the divide (where it meets a side wall), then sort of fold up the divider towards the other end of it (like a retractable door or an x-pen) and then when you want to divide them again you could just pull it back straight. two carabiners could be used to attach it to the wall where the zip-ties used to be when it's closed and used to attach either side of the outermost layer of the folded-up grids to the wall when the divider is open, that way it couldn't be knocked down/expanded by romping bunnies. alternatively, you could cut a couple long strips of fleece about an inch wide and use those to tie it open or tie it closed. hope that all makes sense...


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## JBun (Oct 25, 2012)

Jennifer's idea sounds good. Just cut the zipties on one side of the bottom panels. Then you can just use it as a door and clip it shut when you want to separate them.


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## agnesthelion (Oct 26, 2012)

I'm so glad kiwi has been med free! I just can't believe this long journey you've had. I'm surprised your not in a looney bin with worry


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## Mariah (Oct 26, 2012)

Lisa- I'm in my very own "looney bin" all by myself! Lol, I drive myself crazy! I hate doing my 10.5 hour shifts cause that's a long time to be away from my buns! I guess I'm just a "nervous nelly" because of my previous two buns. It dosent help that I work in a vet clinic and always see the "worst case scenario" when bunnies are brought in... I find owners wait to long to seek vet care and a lot of the times it's too late...

Jenny & Jennifer- if you look closely at my NIC set up, yes I can cut one end of the zip ties but its zip tied to kiwis cage and the other end is zip tied to the middle part of the doors. The part I'm referring too is the middle part- the divider. So there's no way to just cut one end and have the other end slide up against the wall- if that makes sense? If I took the front part off then they wouldn't have an enclose to play in when I wasent home.
I don't think there's an easy way to do this!


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## JBun (Oct 26, 2012)

I understand what you're saying. I don't think I explained very well though, cause I think this will work, Ok, so you have the front wall of their enclosure with the doors that open, right? Then there is the dividing wall between their individual areas. That's what we want to put a doorway in, yeah? So there is a row of bottom grids and a row of top grids. You would only need to open up one grid, just along the bottom row, maybe the second one back from the front wall of their enclosure. Cut the zip ties along the side towards the front, and the ties along the top of the grid that connects the bottom grid to the top grid. That will leave you with zip ties along the back side of the grid that will act as your hinge. Then that one grid will act as a little portal between the two enclosures. And leaving the top row of grids connected, will keep everything held together. Does that make sense? If you need extra stability with the connected grids, you can do an X with zip ties in the corners of the grids. If any of this doesn't make sense to you but you still want to try it, just let me know and I'll see if I can make a mock up of what I'm talking about, and I'll take a picture and post it.


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## holtzchick (Oct 26, 2012)

Wow just read to your blog and sorry to hear about the tummy troubles! Glad to have read that Kiwi is off meds and they are so cute snuggling together!! Can't wait until they are fully bonded! So many of you have 2 buns it makes me want to get another! Maybe once I am settled in and have the time I will think about it.  Will keep checking in!

Also saw the horses (too cute) and used to have my own when I was 12 and we lived up in Bolton Ontario. I had a thoroughbred gelding named Solitude with a hackney marking on his forehead and white socks. He was a tall one, he was 16 hh at a young age. My dad had a horse that was retired from the race track named King (of gold :S odd name). They were both great but I found them to be spooked too easily and got stepped on by Solitude, since then have a HUGE fear of horses.


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## Mariah (Oct 26, 2012)

What a LONG day! I worked 10.5 hours and had to go straight to the barn after work. It's going down to 4 degrees tonight and my boys needed their blankets back on! Of course I think to myself it will be a quick visit... It never is but they always make me feel good as soon as I see them and I forget how tired I really am 

I now do understand what you guys are saying about the divider and putting the one door in the middle. I read your post at 630 this morning. Apparently my brain does not work at that time! That is a really good idea  If I have time this weekend, I may try and do just that!

Holtzchick- we live so close to each other! I am originally from Oakville so I know Mississauga quite well! Horses are just in my blood! I broke my hand (third metacarpal) when Billy tripped and fell and I fell off... And I recently tore my MCL when Sully decided he had enough work and dropped and rolled on me... Keep in mind, i was on his back when he dropped and rolled!! Bad boys! I'm sure they didn't do it on purpose... Horses will be horses!

Both bunnies are in good spirits tonight! When I got home (later then usual) they were both sitting by their x pen doors like they were saying "helloooooo mother... Where have you been? We wanna play and were hungry!!!" What a tough life my buns lead  

No meds again for kiwi lemon! Hopefully the decrease in pellets will keep her stomach issue free


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## JBun (Oct 27, 2012)

You should keep a tally of days Kiwi feels well and doesn't need meds. Isn't this day two? Let's keep it up Kiwi Girl!!! 

Gotta keep those horses warm and happy  I had a horse tripping accident too, but I broke my forearm. I was riding a mare I used to have, and she slipped on the highway, and I flew off and hit my arm and head. Luckily I had a helmet on or I'm pretty sure I would have been unconscious in the middle of the road. Even with the helmet I had a concussion. I still rode after that. I was training her for an endurance race that we still ended up competing in. You have to really love horses to want to go back to it after a bad accident and injury. 

That's so cute your buns were sitting there waiting for you. Our buns don't like it when we mess with their eating and playing schedule


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## Mariah (Oct 27, 2012)

You are right Jbun. You really have to love horses to keep riding them, especially in this weather!! 

I do keep a record of kiwis daily activities  If there's no writing, or minimal writing that means it was a good day! I haven't given her meds since Wed evening, so this is day 4   

I'm home with them now and I've locked them in kiwis x pen together. This will be my first attempt at seeing how they are together in an enclosed space. I will use your idea and take out of one the cubes to create a door. I just need to relax for a bit first 







Edited to say: the cats bowel movements are also on the calander as he was having a bit of a constipation issue. None of my animals are normal...


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## Imbrium (Oct 27, 2012)

whee! four days off meds, that's gotta feel great


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## Mariah (Oct 28, 2012)

It really does Jennifer! For kiwi and myself! I can actually enjoy my bunnies "full time" instead of worrying all the time!

Buns were very happy bunnies today. After i got home from work, I let the buns out and Papaya of course ran to see kiwi! I think he really likes his big sister. It's actually really cute. He will hide behind her when he's scared. Anyways, I decided to relax for a bit so I thought I would try something. I closed kiwis x pen door and left Papaya in with her. Before I actualy fell asleep, I checked on them. They were snuggled together sleeping under kiwis foot stool which is kiwis favourite place to sleep  I figured they would be ok so I went and had a nap. When I woke up, they were both still sleeping but not together. Kiwi was under her foot stool, and Papaya was sleeping by the x pen door. I think he was confused as to why he was in there LOL

Anywoo, all went well for my first session on leaving them alone together. I was home and would have waken up if I heard them fighting- I hope I would have anyways! I have a mama instinct when it comes to my buns. Any weird noises that come from the bunny room, I immediately hear. If I ever have human children I hope I'll be the same way!

Buns had extended time out tonight as its Saturday and I didn't see a reason to put them to bed at 11pm since I was still up! 

Does anyone have an issue with living below someone and the bunnies being scared or annoyed of the noises they hear from upstairs? I live in a basement apt, so our landlords live upstairs. Of course the only part of the house that's not insulated is the bunny room. My landlord didn't know he would have a crazy bunny owner living downstairs... He actually told me that tonight! Lol My landlords are super nice! He meant no harm by saying that. I know I'm crazy when it comes to my buns! I'm going to insulate it but I don't know how much that will actually help. Any suggestions?

Edited to say: I have a radio that's plugged in so that helps a bit I think with the noise, but I don't have it super loud either cause I don't want that to upset the buns either.


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## JBun (Oct 28, 2012)

That's alot of sick days on that calander! I know, it's so nice when there are no sick buns, and you can just have fun with them.

Lol, Papaya probably just decided he wanted to go take a nap in HIS favorite spot instead of Kiwi's.

My buns will startle when my mom walks into the room cause they're used to me and my footsteps, but not so much her's.

Insulating might help. Is the wallboard already up?

So my bun Pip was pregnant when I got her this summer. So I have these 5 babies and I have this playpen set up in the living room, so they can run around and play. I sat in there with them tonight, and I swear they think I'm their own personal jungle gym. They run, jump, and climb all over me. They are constantly trying to nibble on my clothes, oh, and they love my slippers- nom, nom, nom. But they are so cute!!! They binky, bunny 500, and dead bunny flop all over the place. Then they all layed down next to me to take a little bunny nap. So cute


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## Imbrium (Oct 28, 2012)

aww, so glad they did well together. I'm a sound sleeper normally, but will jolt out of bed at "animal in distress" noises - I was wide awake at the sound of unusual scuffling in the bunny pen when Nala got her head stuck in a grid and rushed to check on them without it even crossing my mind to think "I'm sure they're fine" and go back to sleep. I also got woken out of bed on numerous occasions by my kitty when I had her - I'd hear yowling and crying from the living room, like she was in fear for her life, and when I got out there the only "problem" was the neighbor's cat was on our patio and she could see him through the glass door >.>

my bunns don't seem to get annoyed by noises (like the hammy wheels or the TV if have theirs on) but sometimes freak out a little if there's a noise from the house settling or something unusual outside that we can't identify. Nala will freeze and listen intently, then as soon as I say "is ok" she goes back to whatever she was doing.


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## Mariah (Oct 28, 2012)

Jenny, you have babies!! That is so cute about them having a bunny nap beside you! Please post some pics! Baby bunnies are the cutest!

What do you mean by wall board? Sorry, I'm not the most technical person! Ha. It's just board up there and there no cover so you can see all the wires etc that are in the ceiling. 

My buns startle very easy. I don't know why cause kiwis always been around noises since I got her, same with Papaya.

Kiwi ate ALL her hay overnight! I was shocked when I looked in this morning and it was all gone! Papaya only had a tiny bit left. I'm so proud of my little buns for being such good hay eaters!

Lol, about the cat Jennifer. My cat does the exact same thing


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## JBun (Oct 28, 2012)

Wallboard is just the sheetrock that covers everyones walls and all those wires. Insulating will help a little, but I would suggest researching the best ways to soundproof walls. There's probably some better way to do it that will work better than regular insulation. Some buns just startle more easily than others. Papaya is probably just taking his spooking cues from Kiwi.

That's great about her eating all that hay!!! Kiwi seems to be on the mend. I'm so happy for you. Who would ever think such a simple thing like too many rabbit pellets, could cause so many problems. I think the stress of losing Citrus maybe caused her to be more sensitive to digestive issues. Glad that's turning around.

Yeah, I have babies. Right now they are napping in their playpen, but they had to run around for a while, and make a big mess first. Oh well, at least they're happy 
These pictures are from when they were a little younger.


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## agnesthelion (Oct 28, 2012)

Eeeeeek babies! I wanna be a human jungle gym for those cuties too


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## agnesthelion (Oct 28, 2012)

Omg Mariah your calendar is amazing! You are such a good bunny momma  there is no way you could put in this much work and time and not have everything work out in the end. It just HAS too!

So glad she is still off meds and that they are getting along! I feel like it will only get better from here


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## Mariah (Oct 28, 2012)

Jenny!! Your babies are too darn cute!!! Awwwww!! It make me want more bunnies but I can hardly keep up with the ones I have!

Ill have to look more into the insulation a bit more because I make any big moves.

Lisa- thank you! I have my fingers crossed that everything with kiwi continues to improve- meaning stays how it is now because she is stable.

Papaya wa a little monkey today. He chewed off the plastic ears on his bunny toy... And I found 3 tiny balls in his cage... I don't know how many balls were in the toy... Anyone know? What would happen if he ate one...? Here are the pics:


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## JBun (Oct 29, 2012)

Lol, Papaya, little trouble maker  I wouldn't think he would try and eat one of those beads. I'm sure he'll be fine. 

I know, baby bunnies are so cute and fun to watch. They are a handful though, and these guys aren't very snuggly. They're used to people but they don't like being picked up and held, and aren't terribly interested in nose rubs yet. Their mom LOVES nose rubs, so maybe it's something they'll start to like as they get older.


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## Mariah (Oct 29, 2012)

He is a trouble maker! Little bugger! I can see chew marks in one of the little beads... If he did eat one, I think it's small enough that he would be able to pass it? He'a seems fine. He's been pooping, peeing and eating! So hopefully everything is fine. I took that toy away! Ill get him another at some point... I'm going to be placing an order through pet-rabbit-toys.com this week! They are having a sale- 25%off of 25$ and more spent! Shouldn't be that hard to spend that amount on toys for my babies 

Papaya is still getting used to nose rubs as well. Took me till after Citrus passed for kiwi to accept nose rubs from me, so over a year!

Kiwi was so cute last night. I was laying on the ground with her and she started licking my head!!! It was the cutest thing ever!!!

Are you guys getting the effects of hurricane sandy? It's been raining here since last week... Horrible weather here and I've got to go see the horses today and ride... Thank goodness for an indoor arena!!


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## Mariah (Oct 29, 2012)

He is a trouble maker! Little bugger! I can see chew marks in one of the little beads... If he did eat one, I think it's small enough that he would be able to pass it? He'a seems fine. He's been pooping, peeing and eating! So hopefully everything is fine. I took that toy away! Ill get him another at some point... I'm going to be placing an order through pet-rabbit-toys.com this week! They are having a sale- 25%off of 25$ and more spent! Shouldn't be that hard to spend that amount on toys for my babies 

Papaya is still getting used to nose rubs as well. Took me till after Citrus passed for kiwi to accept nose rubs from me, so over a year!

Kiwi was so cute last night. I was laying on the ground with her and she started licking my head!!! It was the cutest thing ever!!!

Are you guys getting the effects of hurricane sandy? It's been raining here since last week... Horrible weather here and I've got to go see the horses today and ride... Thank goodness for an indoor arena!!


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## Mariah (Oct 29, 2012)

He is a trouble maker! Little bugger! I can see chew marks in one of the little beads... If he did eat one, I think it's small enough that he would be able to pass it? He'a seems fine. He's been pooping, peeing and eating! So hopefully everything is fine. I took that toy away! Ill get him another at some point... I'm going to be placing an order through pet-rabbit-toys.com this week! They are having a sale- 25%off of 25$ and more spent! Shouldn't be that hard to spend that amount on toys for my babies 

Papaya is still getting used to nose rubs as well. Took me till after Citrus passed for kiwi to accept nose rubs from me, so over a year!

Kiwi was so cute last night. I was laying on the ground with her and she started licking my head!!! It was the cutest thing ever!!!

Are you guys getting the effects of hurricane sandy? It's been raining here since last week... Horrible weather here and I've got to go see the horses today and ride... Thank goodness for an indoor arena!!


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## Imbrium (Oct 29, 2012)

awww, so sweet of Kiwi! my Nala does that sometimes when I'm laying on the floor with her and if she's feeling extra generous she'll groom my hair a bit too (sometimes even climbing on my back for better access).


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## Mariah (Oct 29, 2012)

He is a trouble maker! Little bugger! I can see chew marks in one of the little beads... If he did eat one, I think it's small enough that he would be able to pass it? He'a seems fine. He's been pooping, peeing and eating! So hopefully everything is fine. I took that toy away! Ill get him another at some point... I'm going to be placing an order through pet-rabbit-toys.com this week! They are having a sale- 25%off of 25$ and more spent! Shouldn't be that hard to spend that amount on toys for my babies 

Papaya is still getting used to nose rubs as well. Took me till after Citrus passed for kiwi to accept nose rubs from me, so over a year!

Kiwi was so cute last night. I was laying on the ground with her and she started licking my head!!! It was the cutest thing ever!!!

Are you guys getting the effects of hurricane sandy? It's been raining here since last week... Horrible weather here and I've got to go see the horses today and ride... Thank goodness for an indoor arena!!


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## Mariah (Oct 29, 2012)

He is a trouble maker! Little bugger! I can see chew marks in one of the little beads... If he did eat one, I think it's small enough that he would be able to pass it? He'a seems fine. He's been pooping, peeing and eating! So hopefully everything is fine. I took that toy away! Ill get him another at some point... I'm going to be placing an order through pet-rabbit-toys.com this week! They are having a sale- 25%off of 25$ and more spent! Shouldn't be that hard to spend that amount on toys for my babies 

Papaya is still getting used to nose rubs as well. Took me till after Citrus passed for kiwi to accept nose rubs from me, so over a year!

Kiwi was so cute last night. I was laying on the ground with her and she started licking my head!!! It was the cutest thing ever!!!

Are you guys getting the effects of hurricane sandy? It's been raining here since last week... Horrible weather here and I've got to go see the horses today and ride... Thank goodness for an indoor arena!!


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## Mariah (Oct 29, 2012)

Sorry for my post being posted like 5 times! It kept telling me my post would not go through, so I kept trying... LOL, apparently it did go through.

Anyways, Papaya is acting a bit strange today. I'm watching him carefull because I don't know if its anything. He was laying in kiwis litter box kinda hunched up, not sprawled out. I was out for a couple hours this afternoon, so I'm not sure what he was up too. He popped a bit which is normal for him during the day. What concerns me is usually as soon as I let him out he usually goes and eats kiwis hay because her hay is "better". He just went and layed in her box.

Am I over reacting or should I give simethicone?


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## JBun (Oct 29, 2012)

Awwww, Kiwi! I love bunny kisses!!!

How's Papaya doing tonight?


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## Mariah (Oct 29, 2012)

Bunny kisses are the best!

I gave Papaya simethicone at 7:40 PM tonight. I fed him his pellets at 8:18pm. He was very excited for his pellets. He is eating and drinking. He always was but he's just as active as he was this morning and yes, he is pooping but not as much. I've noticed some irregular shaped poops. I can't say for sure who they came from though... But kiwi is acting completly normal.

Is is safe to give simethicone again tonight?

Jenny, should I be doing anything else?

Edited to say: I almost wonder if he is stressed. The children who live above me (ages 3 & 5) were not at school today. If they were running around upstairs could that be why Papaya is not as active?


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## JBun (Oct 30, 2012)

Have you ever had eating problems with Papaya in the past?

I'm actually more concerned about that toy he was chewing on. Keep an eye on his poops to see if he's the one with the irregular poops. Is he getting any treats?


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## Mariah (Oct 30, 2012)

No treats. Just his pellets (1/4 cup for the day) and unlimited Timothy hay. Wouldn't he have passed the toy by now? Omg. Bunnies don't normally survive foreign body surgeries...

He is eating hay and wanted his pellets. Wouldn't that be a good sign? Or... no? Could the toy be causing him discomfort? Cause since he is eating, wouldn't the hay be pushing the toy through?

Edited to say: no eating problems with Papaya in the past. He bounced back quite quickly after his neuter.


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## JBun (Oct 30, 2012)

Before you let yourself worry too much, you are going to want to be sure who the irregular poops are coming from, and you also want to make sure that there actually has been any change in Papaya's amount of poops. If he's eating and drinking normally, it could also just be that he maybe ate a little crumb of something that upset his tummy a little and he just needed it to move through his digestion. That happened to one of my bunnies, and she was fine the next day.

Just keep a really close eye on his eating and pooping.


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## Mariah (Oct 30, 2012)

This is Papaya's litter box:






This is Kiwi's:






So if you compare the two, Papaya has done more poops. I'm so worried right now. I've never had a bunny chew the ears off of that toy! All my bunnies have had that same toy- I always buy a new one for each new bun, and not once have I had a problem. I just cut the ears off of kiwi toy that's the same and there was only 3 beads in that one so at least he didn't eat a bead. I guess we are dealing with plastic right now. 

Wouldn't he have chewed the plastic up good before swallowing it? Shouldn't it be easy or not difficult to pass?

As I write this he's in his litter box eating hay... I'm still so nervous I may wake up to a very sick bun tomorrow morning... I haven't put them to bed yet because I'm too nervous to do that...


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## JBun (Oct 30, 2012)

That's good to know that he didn't eat a bead. I was just a little concerned initially cause of the irregular poops you found, but you know what, both their poops look really good now. I would say that if he wasn't feeling well earlier, that he just had a little tummy upset, it happens sometimes, and with his eating and poops back to normal, it appears whatever caused the upset is past, so I wouldn't worry about it. My baby that had a tummy upset, had found a piece of sugary horse feed on the floor, so it really can be as simple as a little crumb of something they manage to find, that doesn't settle well in their stomach, but once it goes through them, they are just fine afterward.

Sorry if I worried you. I swear, I feel like I know your buns so well now that I worry about them too


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## Mariah (Oct 30, 2012)

I swere, I shouldn't own bunnies. I worry at the slightest little thing. But at least I know, the bunnies I have are VERY well taken care of!

I just put them to bed. I was standing in the living room talking to the bf and kiwi came up and started nose butting my leg, like she was saying "hello!!! its way past my bedtime! Where is my special bunny treat??!!!" Papaya didn't come too which he usually always does... Which absolutely has me worried. He ate his pellets and went straight for his hay.

So I'm confused by his behaviors. He's doing everything normal except running around with kiwi. He let me scoop him up and didn't try to get away from me which he usually does... Once I'm holding him he's fine but he dosent like the initial pickup. So why did he not struggle when I picked him up?

Jenny- you do know my buns VERY well! I'm glad to hear that you think both their poops are normal. They also look normal to me, but there was that irregular poop. Again, no idea who's it was because they were both in the litter box. It was big, and kiwis poops are bigger then Papayas so I would assume it was hers but she's totally fine... So...

And no worries for worrying me. I was also thinking the same thing about the toy when I saw how papaya was acting. You just confirmed it for me.

Ill see how he is in the morning. At this point there's nothing I can do for him. If he's unwell tomorrow, he will be coming to work with me for an x ray... Which will stress him out and me too, but I need to know what we are dealing with, if anything...


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## JBun (Oct 30, 2012)

Keep in mind too, that as they both get more bonded and comfortable with each other, they won't always react the same way to things. Like now that Papaya is becoming more settled and comfortable with Kiwi, he may not always follow her around as much as he did at first.


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## Mariah (Oct 30, 2012)

That's a good thought as well Jenny. He does seem very comfortable with kiwi now as does kiwi with him. He was laying all stretched out - bunny legs completly out behind him in kiwis x pen while kiwi was nose butting my leg to go to bed. It was actually quite cute! You can't see his legs in the pic cause he moved when I went to snap the pic.

*Fingers crossed* all is well in the morning...


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## JBun (Oct 30, 2012)

Look at that CUTE fuzzybutt!!! I'm totally in love with Papaya :inlove:

He was probably thinking this was his one chance to take over Kiwi's cage and relax while she was gone


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## Imbrium (Oct 30, 2012)

I'm sure he's fine . hopefully he'll have lots more poops for you int he morning!


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## Mariah (Oct 30, 2012)

So... All is well in Kiwi & Papaya land this morning! Papaya pooped his normal amount overnight- so tons! He ate his hay and drank some water 

I cleaned ther cages first thing this morning and he's already pooped in his fresh clean litter! He was running with kiwi and currently he's chewing on one of his safe wooden toys! Yay!

Jenny- he really is cute! You should see him in person! The expressions on his face are just priceless!


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## Imbrium (Oct 30, 2012)

I still love the fuzz-butt and the airplane ears!

I'm so glad all is well with the bunnies today


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## Mariah (Oct 30, 2012)

He is a cutie, that's for sure! I have a thing for long haired animals 

He's still acting a bit off today. Like he's scared of something. He was sitting in his cage when he has full access to the rest of the house with his ears completly up like he was hearing noises that I couldn't hear. 

But he's pooping and eating so... I'm thankful for that. I've gotta work this afternoon so hopefully all is ok while I'm gone. Darn work getting in the way of my bunny time!


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## agnesthelion (Oct 30, 2012)

Aww he is so cute! Glad he is okay.

You know, Archie (my male) is moodier than Agnes, I mean one day he's playful, one day he's calm, one day he's suggly, one day he's begging for treats, he keeps me on my toes!

So maybe papaya is a range of emotions like Archie


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## Mariah (Oct 30, 2012)

Buns were ok this afternoon! They were so excited to see me when I got home! Kiwi was following me everywhere and Papaya was following her. Ha. 

They ate their dinner around 745 and haven't played since! They have both been relaxing by themselves. I guess that ok!


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## JBun (Oct 30, 2012)

Papaya is Kiwi's little shadow  I'm glad he's doing good today!

Lazy buns, they probably have to let those full bellies settle and then they'll be zipping around driving you crazy  I do notice some days my buns are more active, and some days they just lay around.


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## Mariah (Oct 30, 2012)

Most days Papaya is kiwis shadow! He's still not acting completly like "Papaya". Could it be that he's maturing and dosent want to run around as much? He's only 8 months though! What's with this odd behaviour Jenny?


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## JBun (Oct 30, 2012)

Is the difference that you're seeing just that he's not running around as much?


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## Mariah (Oct 30, 2012)

Yes exactly Jenny. He spends more time in his cage then the house or x pen. But still eating, drinking, pooping and peeing though.


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## JBun (Oct 30, 2012)

It could be that he's outgrown his baby bunny phase and is just less hyper. He could also just be feeling more relaxed and comfortable with Kiwi and his home. Or it could be something else. You could try letting him and Kiwi spend more time together to see if that makes any sort of difference with him.


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## Mariah (Oct 31, 2012)

Is this the time they typically out grown their bunny phase?

I don't want to start thinking about what "the something else" could be.

Currently they are both sleeping in kiwis x pen. He looks super comfortable!


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## qtipthebun (Oct 31, 2012)

Q-tip became a bunnylump at about 8 months or so. That's when she started getting out of her "OMG MOM HI OMG HI MOM HI HI HI HI HI!" everytime I walked into a room and became a little more of a "hey, I see you but I'm not gonna move or anything, so come here and give me a kiss". So it could be the age thing. Your little baby could be growing up. Or he sees his older, more mature lady and is like "hey, this is who I wanna be". 

Also, I'm checking your blog constantly because I need pictures of those airplane ears. I need my Papaya fix. All the time.


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## Mariah (Oct 31, 2012)

Qtip- your too sweet! Ill get a pic later specially for you cause I've gotta get ready for work on this damp, dark and rainy morning!

Jenny- what's with the extra cecotrophs from Papaya? He has a teeny tiny bit I found this morning. He seems fine, ate and pooped over night and ate his breakfast this morning. He's in kiwis cage right now eating her hay


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## JBun (Oct 31, 2012)

Of course he's eating Kiwi's hay! Ir tastes better than his  

I agree, Papaya's new behavior might just mean he is growing up and settling down. How many cecotropes is Papaya leaving? A few cecotropes left around once in a while isn't a big deal usually. My rabbits will do it sometimes.


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## agnesthelion (Oct 31, 2012)

Ditto to Jenny's post exactly. Sounds like he is growing up. Agnes will leave an occasional cecotrope and Archie I have never even seen him EAT his so he must be very modest about it  Point is, different rabbits have different habits about night droppings. I think if you see a couple here and there its no big deal.


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## Mariah (Oct 31, 2012)

Well, since I decreased Papayas food slightly I've hardly seen any. Sometimes I will find a cluster and usually if its fresh, ill feed it to him and he will eat it. Sometimes he won't. I don't see them too often. Maybe once or twice a week? I've had his stool checked for parasites numerous times since he was positive for coccidia and pinworms and nothing ever since. I'm just wondering why I see them? I've never once seen Kiwis!

Hopefully Papaya is just growing up! My little baby! He seems fine today 
Tons of poops today while I was at work. I stopped in after work and both buns were sound asleep! I haven't left them alone since last Wed when I was home but sleeping. I'm still to nervous to leave them alone while I'm at work... I think they would be fine, but I would be a wreak at work not knowing what they were doing... I need a bunny webcam! 

Here is little P when he was a baby


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## Mariah (Oct 31, 2012)

And here are two pictures of kiwi taken about 10 minutes ago. She got mad with me and said it wasent fair just to post pic of Papaya and not her... So here you go!






Notice in this picture her whiskers are growing back?! Hopefully, Papaya doesent chew these ones off too... Silly girl for letting him in the first place!


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## JBun (Nov 1, 2012)

I think I'm going to die from cuteness overload!!! I don't want Kiwi to feel bad cause she is a really cute bun, but oh my gosh, Papaya is soooo adorable as a baby. He's like this big ball of fluff. He really is a little furbaby 

I don't think the cecotrope thing is anything to worry about. I have some buns that never have left cecotropes behind, and then some of my other buns I'll see them every once in a while. I really think it just depends on the rabbit.

Webcam's a good idea. Just keep your buns together when you're home, for a while, until you feel more comfortable with them staying together when you aren't home. No sense in overly stressing yourself about it.

So good not to hear Kiwi's unwell. Glad she's doing better.


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## Mariah (Nov 1, 2012)

I am too so happy Jenny that Kiwi & Papaya are feeling better!

I was so proud of them last night. I had to run the water softener because we are on a well, and my landlords asked me to run a cycle because we needed soft water as some of the water was leaving yellow stains in the shower, sinks etc. I don't like runnin it cause its right in the bunny room and makes a loud swishing notice for about an hour... So it had to be done. At first the buns were like what's that noise? Then Papaya came out and went and sat with kiwi like she was protecting him from this unknown noise, then they both hopped in kiwis litter box and started eating together! They didn't seem to bothered by it once they saw it wasent going to hurt them!

Good bunnies! I was worried they would hide like last time but they didn't! I really think their bond it getting stronger! 

Edited to say: can you see why I drove 3 hours to get Papaya? I saw his pic and almost died by how cute he was


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## Mariah (Nov 1, 2012)

Jenny, i cant thank you enough for all your care and support you gave the buns and I. I honestly thought i was going to loose kiwi...

Bunnies are well tonight! And here's some more cuteness for all of you bunny lovers out there!!












And here's the airplane ears!!!!


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## JBun (Nov 1, 2012)

That's so fun to see them all snuggled up together  I bet there were several times in this long bonding process, that you wondered if they'd ever get along and snuggle. I'm so glad it's worked out for you and them! They're so cute together  And Papaya!!! If I had seen a picture of that cute little guy, I'd have driven the 3 hours too. He's definitely worth it!!!

I'm really glad what I've learned with my own rabbits problems, has been useful in helping someone else. So, you're very welcome  I'm just glad that it's all worked out with Kiwi, and that she's doing well and has herself a new buddy now!


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## Mariah (Nov 1, 2012)

I hope they stay bonded and there's no more bunny tiffs! I still have yet to take the one cube out so they can go back and forth. See my issue is that when I'm home, I let them have full access to the house and I would feel bad keeping them in their x pens as they spend enough time in there! When I work, it's usually 8-630 so I don't feel comfortable leaving them for that long on their own. Maybe I'll try this weekend when I'm off to see the horses for a couple of hours... The bf might be home so hopefully he could keep an eye on them.

Your totally right about me thinking that they would never get along. I was so sad at the thought that my buns may have to live alone forever! Hopefully, this is not the case now 

Jenny how is Zeus doing with his tummy troubles? I wish I could help you the way you helped me! I never knew that pellets could play a factor in tummy troubles. Citrus used to have tummy troubles too. I wonder if it was the pellets that was causing it? I guess I'll never know now. At least for future bunnies (I'm sure there will be more!!) I can take your advice and use it on them


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## qtipthebun (Nov 2, 2012)

Oh my goddess. Snuggling airplane ears. Need to give noses kisses. *begins walking to you*


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## Mariah (Nov 2, 2012)

Qtip- thank you! If we lived closer I would tell you to come and visit!!


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## JBun (Nov 2, 2012)

Zeus is doing good. Loves his probiotics  His poops are mostly normal now. I think maybe another week on probiotics, then I'll think about starting him with a few pellets (if I'm feeling brave enough). I just don't want him to get sick again so I'm going to go really slow and just give him a few pieces. This will probably be the last time I try to give him rabbit food. If he gets sick again, he'll be on a hay/veggie diet the rest of his life.


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## agnesthelion (Nov 2, 2012)

Cute cute CUTE! 
Airplane ears make me smile


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## Mariah (Nov 2, 2012)

Jenny, I'm glad Zeus is doing better! I know how nervous I got with kiwi after she finished eating.

I had a good squeal when I saw my buns all snuggled up together! They are doing great today. Hanging out and eating hay together


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## Mariah (Nov 3, 2012)

Well, today when I got home from work, I really needed to sleep. So I put papaya in kiwis x pen with her and went to bed. When I woke up, both buns were just hanging out- no fighting  They were alone for 4 hours and it was a success! I'm pretty sure I can start leaving them alone now... But I'm too chicken to do so yet.

Also, for all you bunny owners with more then one bun. How do you keep track of who's poop is who's? Right now, I can mostly tell their poops apart as kiwis are bigger then papayas, but sometimes it's a guessing game. I just ask because even though right now, my buns are good, kiwi is prone to tummy troubles.


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## agnesthelion (Nov 3, 2012)

Wait, I though they were alone together again? I guess I missed something. That or I get confused trying to keep up on everyone else's buns on here 

So, are they separated at night still? And during the day? 

As far as poops, maybe brandy can give you some tips. I was amazed to hear her say she can tell her six buns apart!

But anyway, maybe I'm fortunate but Agnes and Archies poops look pretty different. Size wise and color wise. Also, I can tell them apart because of where they poop in the litterbox. Archie is always towards the side and Agnes more in the middle. So maybe look for their habits like that to help you tell the difference too.


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## Mariah (Nov 3, 2012)

Lisa- I've been too much of a chicken to leave them alone together when I'm not home. Just because of the vicious fights they had at the beginning. If I wasent there for those fights, I'm positive one of them would have been mortally injured or worse...

They are only together when I'm home to keep an eye on them. There have been no issues (fighting) for almost a month now. During the day, they have access to their own cages and x pens. When I'm home they have access to both and the whole house. I do put them in their cages overnight so I make sure they don't forget to eat!


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## Imbrium (Nov 4, 2012)

only four hours of sleep? eww!

if you start paying really close attention to litter boxes when they're apart, you may be able to find subtle differences. Gaz's poops seem just a tiny bit darker and smaller than Nala's. for the most part, though, it seems like the not eating as much comes before the not pooping as much so as long as you can monitor their food intake at least a couple times a day (like if they normally rush over when you put fresh food/hay out and suddenly someone doesn't), you should be able to catch any pre-stasis issues early.


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## Mariah (Nov 4, 2012)

No no! I was up at 6am for work till 1pm, but I didn't sleep until after 12am and then of course we were short staffed so I was running around like crazy trying to be three people at once! So when I came home I just needed a "bunny nap", so I slept for 4 hours.

I do notice their poop differences. Kiwis are bigger, rounder and lighter colored. She also likes to poop on the side of her litter box. 

Papayas are smaller and darker. Normally he has a spot too but sometimes he just poops everywhere in his litter box. So yes, I can tell them apart but sometimes the poop is questionable because sometimes "I think" papaya does some bigger poops too, but they are darker then kiwis.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who "analyses" my bunnies poop! The bf thinks I'm insane... LOL


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## JBun (Nov 4, 2012)

It'll be fun when your buns are together for good  I think you're getting pretty close. A few more times of them spending uneventful hours together, and I think you'll feel more comfortable taking that next step. Maybe sometime soon you could try doing an overnighter with them to see how it turns out. That way you'll still be at home just in case.

I think you'll be able to figure the poop thing out. If nothing else, you are very familiar with Kiwi's behavior when she starts not feeling well. So just keep an eye out for that change in behavior to alert you to any problems she might be having. She seems to be doing really well now, which is great!

I know, I don't think I've ever talked so much about poop until I started chatting on this forum. I think we're all obsessed with bunny poop here


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## CosmosMomma (Nov 4, 2012)

Ooh Such cuties. Ontario isn't far from me :nasty: Only an 8hr drive. PACK YOUR BAGS BUNBUNS, I'M COMIN FOR YOUUU. :biggrin:


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## Mariah (Nov 4, 2012)

I know Jenny! We discuss poop all the time on here! I think it's pretty funny but a must when you have bunnies as pets.

Cosmosmama- you are too funny! What an evil face!

I wasent brave enough to leave them alone today while I was with the horses. I really think they would be fine though. Currently Papaya is all snuggled into kiwi. She is protecting him from the bf who is watching tv in the living room... Lol, cause he's so scary! Ha.

At night they are in their cages. I like them in there at night so I know they are eating and pooping. I feel if I give them the day and night out of their cages they might forget to eat! :S


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## agnesthelion (Nov 5, 2012)

I think i read that once they can be together for 4-5 hours without ONE incident then they can be alone unsupervised. Now, whether that's the magic number or not i dont know...but it might give you something to base things off of.


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## Mariah (Nov 5, 2012)

Ah Lisa that would be wonderful it ifs true! Can anyone else confirm this?

Kiwi is a happy little camper this morning! She's been tearing around the house as fast as her little bunny legs will allow, doing blinkies!! Bella (the dog) is in the living room chewing on one of we toys and kiwi dosent care! She actually jumped over her! LOL Papaya is still weary of the dog so he's sitting a safe distance away watching Kiwi do the bunny 500!

Gosh, I love my buns!!!!!!


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## JBun (Nov 5, 2012)

Lol, Kiwi's too funny!!!


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## Mariah (Nov 5, 2012)

She really is, and the dog didn't even move! Just layed there and was watching her 

Now... Here's another poop question. Both buns are acting completly normal. Eating, drinking,'pooping and peeing, however I found this just now:







I know the pic is not the greatest but its not a cecotrophs. It looks like a poop that's very wet and not formed that great. I believe it's Papayas as he was the last one in the litter box. I'm wondering why this would be happening? His other poos were normal except a couple that were also very dark in color and looked to be wet and not dry.

I can't say for certain that it came from Papaya but i believe it did. 

In any case both buns seem to be normal and had normal poos and pees overnight. They both ate a lot of hay overnight too.

Suggestions?


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## JBun (Nov 5, 2012)

Sometimes my buns will have an occasional weird poop too. I just figure it's something they've eaten off the floor, or maybe something in their hay that upsets their stomach. As long as it is just a few poops and doesn't keep happening, I wouldn't worry about it.


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## Mariah (Nov 5, 2012)

Ok Jenny- good to know! They have been running around all evening and getting into mischief! Happy bunnies tonight but that poop defintely had me worried until you responded


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## Mariah (Nov 6, 2012)

Thought you guys might like this! A pic of Papayas cute
little bum!


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## JBun (Nov 7, 2012)

Definitely the CUTEST fuzzy bunny butt ever

Zeus' poops are looking pretty good so I started him on some pellets today. He got exactly 3 pieces. Cross your fingers. I'm going to go very slow.


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## Mariah (Nov 7, 2012)

That's so exciting Jenny! How did Zeus do on the 3 pieces? I have my fingers crossed!


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## JBun (Nov 7, 2012)

He snarfed them down!! Doing good so far  One of these days I'll post a pic of him playing. If I can ever remember to take one


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## Mariah (Nov 8, 2012)

That's so great to hear Jenny!! Yes please do post a pic of your little man that you love so much! You should start a "Zeus" blog 

My little angels are happy bunnies today! Tripp was chasing them so I had to put him on time out in the bedroom tonight. I wish they would stand up to him! Citrus would never run! He would actually chase the cats! And when he had enough he would lunge and grunt at them! LOL He was an awesome bunny. I miss that little guy!

Citrus and Kiwi- when Kiwi was a baby:


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## JBun (Dec 30, 2012)

Haven't heard from you in a while. Just wondering how you and your cute buns are doing


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## Chrisdoc (Dec 30, 2012)

Just been reading through all this and wondered how they both are. Love them both and those airplane ears are so cute. They look so comfortable together in the last pics. 

Hope Kiwi's completely over the tummy problems now and they are both spending lots of time together.


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## Imbrium (Dec 31, 2012)

I've been meaning to /bump this for a while now, but keep forgetting to go dig it up... almost two months without a kiwi and papaya fix - hope all is well


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## Mariah (Jan 7, 2013)

Hi guy! I am so sorry for not posting any updates. Ive had a crazy couple of months. I will first start out by saying that Kiwi lemon and Little Papaya are both doing well, as am I 

My crazy life started the beginning of Nov. The boyfriend left me very suddenly without really any warning. I knew we were having issues but I didn't know it was at the point of him leaving me. I was crying all the time and Kiwi (smart little girl) picked up on that. She got diarrhea- off and on, with normal poos as well. I had her fecal checked which was negative so I assumed she was stressed out from me crying all the time. Once I stopped crying in her bunny pen, the diarrhea stopped 

Then December came. I left home at 11am, Kiwi was fine. I got home at 8pm to a lethargic, hunched up bunny, not wanting to eat. I started her on simethicone, cisapride and metacam right away. She didn't want to take the meds which she usually will just lick up right from the syringe. I had to scoop her up in a towel (she HATES being held). Once she stopped struggling she went limp on me. I thought I had killed her. I didn't- thank goodness. I got the meds into her and offered her critical care. She took a couple of licks. I ended up not locking her in her pen that night and slept in the living room so she could run around all night. Long story short, she did get better finally. I have no idea what caused her to go into stasis. I am so glad that I did have my Vet on hand in case I needed her that night as well as all the meds. I cant even imagine if I didn't have them.

The boyfriend has now come back to me... I am not letting him move back in with me. He needs to earn that. He caused me a lot of heartache and stress, not to mention the stress on my bunnies. He never really paid them a lot of attention but they are smart little animals. They knew he was gone (he took the dog), and Im sure they could tell I wasn't right either. 

I got a laptop for my birthday so I don't have any pics on my buns on it. I will post some updated pics of the buns when Im back on my iphone. Don't worry, you guys will get your Kiwi & Papaya fix!!

Thanks for caring


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## JBun (Jan 8, 2013)

It's so great to have you back! I NEED Kiwi and Papaya pics


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## Chrisdoc (Jan 8, 2013)

Good to hear you´re coming through this and yes, bunnies are so sensitive to what we feel, look at my three stressed from not having their totally normal routine for three weeks but getting back to normal now. 

Hope little Kiwi is feeling a lot better now, poor little love, lots of bunny cuddles and nose rubs for her. 

Look forward to more pics quite soon.


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