# random tilting of the head?



## ChandieLee (Apr 2, 2008)

Hi everyone. I know it's been a long time since I've been on here....

I woke up to find Belle just sitting in the cage... I was watching her, and I noticed that the fur around her mouth is kinda brown-ish. As I went to get a closer look, she tilted her head the right. And since then, she keeps tilting her head to the right. And the more she dos it, the longer she keeps her head tilted. I'm not sure why she would do that... Anyone know about head tilting?


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## naturestee (Apr 2, 2008)

Head tilt? Go to a vet ASAP! Treat for inner ear infection and E. cuniculi.


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## ChandieLee (Apr 2, 2008)

Okay. I called Belle's regular vet, and they can't take heer today... they don't have any spaces left. So, I'm taking her to an emergency vet that's like two towns away. I'll let you know how it goes. As always, thanks for your help.


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## aurora369 (Apr 2, 2008)

I hope it goes well.

--Dawn


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## Bo B Bunny (Apr 2, 2008)

I hope the emergency vet is rabbit savvy!

The sooner you get her into the vet and get her treated - the better her chances are with tilt! 

Good luck and keep us posted!

ray:


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## MsBinky (Apr 2, 2008)

Ugh, I hope it's nothing too serious and that it was caught in time. Will be looking forward to updates. :hug:


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## ChandieLee (Apr 2, 2008)

Hey everyone. We just got back. It turns out Belle has E. Cuniculi. She's been given a 30 day supply of Panacur. If she's not eating, drinking or still acting lethargic tomorrow, I will have to bring her back in. Thanks for the support everyone. :hug1


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## AngelnSnuffy (Apr 2, 2008)

Best of luck! Keep us posted. Poor Belle.


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## trailsend (Apr 2, 2008)

whoa, I'm just reading this now. I'm glad you caught this - and I hope Belle recovers well. Never a fun thing to deal with. You did the right thing and got her taken care of right away Lots of good thoughts coming your way.


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## naturestee (Apr 2, 2008)

I hope she feels better soon! Although I would call and ask about antibiotics too, just in case there is also an ear infection. They can be really hard to find, and it's better to treat it now.


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## ChandieLee (Apr 2, 2008)

Yes. I will ask about antibiotics too. I'm thinking I will have to bring her in again tomorrow because we've been home for about two hours and she hasn't eaten or drank her water. I'll let you all know what happens though.


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## naturestee (Apr 2, 2008)

She might be feeling too ill to eat. There are meds available for the dizzyness her tilted head is most likely causing, but till then you might need to syringe fluids and food into her.

Hopefully your regular rabbit vet can see her tomorrow.


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## ra7751 (Apr 2, 2008)

Hi,

I have a huge concern here. Just how was E Cuniculi diagnosed? The fact is...E Cuniculi does not cause head tilt. This is a very common misconception even among vets. And truthfully, very few vets have ever seen an actual EC infection. I have treated many rabbits that were EC positive and many that tilted. In every case except two, the root cause of the tilt was an infection in the ear. While EC doesn't directly cause the tilt, it does overwhelm the immune system to the point that opportunistic bacteriainvade. The ears are the weakest link in the body of a rabbit..and usually the first to suffer theinduced secondary infections from the EC. EC rabbits can have "roving" infections...this month it is the ears, next month urinary tract, next maybe the eyes, etc. The two cases of tilt that were not ear infections were cottontails with obvious head trauma. We have had EC rabbits that never tilted but presented all other neurological deficiencies....and we have had non-EC buns tilt from stand aloneinfections. 

I think Sparky is in our blog. He tilted while at a pet store. He was diagnosed with EC and treated for that. He had a major ear infection. Had it been treated properly to begin with, he would not have to spend the rest of his life twisted around.

As far as diagnosing EC, the only true method of pinpointing EC is a post mortem exam of brain tissue....that is not a desired result. There is a blood titer that checks for antibodies in the blood. To get anything near an accurate look, it requires several titers to be performed over a period of several weeks. The idea of the test is to see if the antibody levels are rising or falling. If they are rising, the thinking is the infection is active. If the levels are falling, the event in maturing. This test leaves a lot to be desired but is the best we have now.

I have had the distinct displeasure of treating numerous EC positive rabbits here....in fact, our rescue is named in honor of Sabrina. She was my very first rescue....and daddy's little girl. I lost her to EC....and nobody had ever heard of this issue back then. She is my reason for learning and researching so much about this issue. In every case of active EC, the first presentation is neurological....in every case here, the left rear leg showed issues. In the beginning, it appeared to be a "lazy" leg....a little stumble here and there. It got better but came back. There is also a change in the urine as the spores from the protozoa shed. This causes scar tissue and pitting inside the kidneys which reduces their efficiency. This results in a very smelly and concentrated urine. Many times the rabbit will stay wet with urine. It is most often misdiagnosed as a bacterialUTI.

Treatment for EC is challenging. The latest and greatest is the "bendazoles" and Fenbendazole (Panacur) is the latest in that family. I have not seen it to be particularly effective.It has a tough time penetrating theblood/brain barrier.I don't use is as a "stand alone" but as part of an overall attack strategy. In reality, to get EC into remission....it will be the rabbit's own immune system. Supporting the immune system is paramount in an EC event. The drug with the most promise for an effective treatment is Ponazuril and is marketed by Bayer as Marquis. It is designed to treat Equine Protozoal Myeloencephalitis (EPM) in horses. It appears, on paper anyway, that the organisms that cause EC in rabbits and EPM in horses are very closely related. A bright spot for a horrible condition. I have not had the opportunity to use my theory but I bet some real doctors have figured this out already (I had a rabbit ready for treatment but lost her to kidney failure from EC before we could treat her).

I am not a vet...but here are my suggestions based on my very long term experiences with "special needs" rabbits. I would get back in to see the vet as quickly as possible. I would look very carefully for "markers"....using x-rays and/or cultures if necessary. I would take a long and hard look at the ears....and since she is tilted right, the issue is on the right side. Just because an infection can't be seen by the naked eye (or by an otoscope) does not mean there is not an infection. And don'tdiscount the possibility of a dental issue with the roots of the upper arcade molars....and that can onlybeseen by radiographs. A blood panel will also help piece the puzzle together. Check the rectal temperature. Look at her eyes. Do they move when they shouldn't be....maybe a very slight tick. You might have to look closely. If they tick, that is called nystagmus and would be an indication of a vestibular infection (or head trauma). If the eyes tick only when she is picked up, that is called positional nystagmus and usually is caused by infection that has moved into the brain stem. Ear infections require a major treatment protocol. I would also request that the vet access the internet and consult with other doctors on protocols and clinical diagnosis for EC.

Again, I am not a vet and it is not my intent to "flame" the doctor. I have the utmost respect for vets....they are all fantastic people. But I am hoping to give you some ideas to pursue based on my many years of experience. I have no problem with using the Panacur protocol since it will at least deworm her...but I would really go the extra mile with those ears.

Randy


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## ChandieLee (Apr 2, 2008)

Randy, do you mind if I print out what you wrote? I'd like to bring that to the vet with me tomorrow. I haven't noticed any weird movements with her eyes, but I will definitely got take a closer look and get back to you, but I did notice something just a moment ago. Firstly, Belle attepmted to eat. She ate a pellet and her head tilted to the right and she gave up trying to eat. Then, she cleaned her face and again, tilted to the right. If she's sitting still, or lying down, her head is fine. Once again, i don't know what to make of that. So, now I'll go and take a look at here eyes and get back to you.

I checked her eyes, and I saw no weird movements or ticks, however, upon picking her up, I realized that smells strongly of urine.


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## ChandieLee (Apr 3, 2008)

Hey everyone. I just thought I'd update....

Belle doesn't seem to be doing any better. She doesn't want to eat or drink, there are hardly any poops in her litter box, and it seems like she's having a hard time urinating. 

Last night, I kept Belle and Necro in seperate cages. I'm not sure if what Belle has is contagious... she doesn't like the seperation. She wanted out of the cage, so she frantically started rattling the cage. I felt so bad, so my boyfriend and I went and slept on the the floor in the living room, right next to her cage. She calmed down, but I don't know if she slept at all.

I plan on calling the vet as soon as they are open. I was wondering if I should bring Necro in as well? Yesterday before I knew what was going on, he was with Belle and like I said, I don't know if what she has contagious.

As always, thanks for your help.


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## naturestee (Apr 3, 2008)

I think you can leave them together, just make sure you can tell whether she is pooping and eating. If it is actuallyE. cuniculi or partially from it, he already has been exposed. Actually, the majority of healthy rabbits test positive for E. cuniculi but never develop symptoms. To my knowledge, ear infections are not contagious.

If Necro can make her feel more comfortable at home and/or the vet's office (carrier buddy?), all the better. If he usually grooms her, he can help her keep clean as she'll have trouble caring for herself at the moment.

I highly recommend syringing fluids and food into her now since she doesn't seem to be able to eat on her own. It's really hard with the crooked head and dizzyness. If she goes without eating for more than 24 hours she might go into stasis, and from the lack of poops she's probably pretty empty inside right now. Ground up pellets soaked in water work well for food, so does canned pumpkin.


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## ChandieLee (Apr 3, 2008)

Okay. Thanks so much. 

Yes, Necro does groom her alot and I'm thinking she'll be alot more comfortable with him. I will also bring him to the vet with her. I'm still waiting for her vet's office to open, so in the meantime, I will syringe her food and water. 

Again, thanks.


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## jil101ca (Apr 3, 2008)

I don't know anything about EC other than what I read butI just wanted to add that Panacur has been used to treat EPM in race horses for many years with good results.


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## ra7751 (Apr 3, 2008)

If you are familiar with EPM in horses....check out Marquis. I live neara major vet school that does a lot of equine research. Horses and rabbits are treated similarly. This is the drug of choice for EPM. It appears to be very promising in rabbit work. I have heard that it has also been used in dogs for stubborn coccidia. The only real draw back I see with this drug is the huge cost. But if it works against EC....it would be worth the price. 

http://www.bayerdvm.com/products/marquis/marquis.cfm

Randy


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## ChandieLee (Apr 3, 2008)

I brought Belle and Necro to the vet earlier; she had still not been eating and had started grinding her teeth. Their vet actually decided to keep Belle there over-night since she wasn't eating and in obvious pain. I believe she was actually having stomach pain. She'll be running some tests on her to see what's going on. Since Necro is still eating, drinking and running around like normal. she decided to send him home. She didn't do any tests however. She wanted to test Belle first, to see if anything comes back positive. 
I don't know much about medication, but if it turns out that she definitely has E. Cinuculi, I can ask her about Marquis. I know she's keeping Belle on the Panacur while she's there.


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## Bo B Bunny (Apr 4, 2008)

Did she check her back teeth?

and is this a rabbit savvy vet?


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## ChandieLee (Apr 4, 2008)

Yes, Belle's back teeth have been checked. And their vet is rabbit savvy.
I'm waiting for a call from her vet, so she can tell me how Belle is doing. When I know how she's doing, I'll update.


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## Bo B Bunny (Apr 4, 2008)

:waiting:


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## ChandieLee (Apr 4, 2008)

I finally got an update. The vet said that Belle was making some progress. She's eating some of the hay they gave her, so she has gone to the bathroom a little. She's still doing some tests with her, so I won't be able to pick her up until 2:30-ish tomorrow. I will be over-joyed to haver home.

I had another question; Necro hasn't come out of the cage at all today, and I really don't want to force him to if he doesn't want to. He's eating and drinking fine though. I'm wondering if he's just sad and confused about Belle not being home?


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## ra7751 (Apr 4, 2008)

He is probably thinking she has abandoned him. In the rare times we have a rabbit spend the night at a vet, if that rabbit is part of a bonded pair or trio....they all stay.

Randy


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## ChandieLee (Apr 4, 2008)

She was going to have Necro stay with her, but since Belle wasn't eating, she wanted to keep her there alone. I hope I won't have to re-bond them.

Is there anything I can do to make Necro feel better?


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## ra7751 (Apr 4, 2008)

I would spend some qualilty TLC with him as much as possible.

Has your vet come up with anything yet? I would just about bet money that she would start eating if she were on some pain meds. If it's what I think it is (and I have been wrong before) she is probably not feeling too well. Ear infections....and dental if it's involved...can be painful and they won't eat if they are in pain. I am thinking at least an anti-inflammatory (if not a bit more aggressive analgesic)just to see if she improves....just thinking out loud here.

Randy


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## ChandieLee (Apr 4, 2008)

Before I left yesterday, the vet told me they would be trying some pain meds as well as tests. She also told me that it seemed like Belle was having some stomach pain. When I talked to her just a little while ago, she said Belle seemed like she was in less pain, and that's why she was able to take in some hay.


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## ra7751 (Apr 4, 2008)

Just wondering now....see if you can find out what pain meds were administered. If the pain meds helped her appetite.....she is hurting either in her ear or her teeth (remember that the tilt can be caused by molar root issues). A little canned pumpkin (not the pie filling..the real canned stuff) is very nutritous and has lots of fiber. You might want to ask if she has been given any fluids (either SQ or IV). That would most likely help her too.

Randy


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## ChandieLee (Apr 4, 2008)

The pain med that Belle has been getting is called Metacam. As for the fluids, it's SQ.


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## ra7751 (Apr 4, 2008)

I see progress being made here. Metacam is a NSAID....along the lines of our Tylenol. If that is making her feel better, she has some inflammation somewhere...again most likely the ear or dental. Between the Metacam and the fluids, she should be feeling better. But the root of the concern still needs to be found. But this does look promising as far as progress on her issues is concerned.


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## ChandieLee (Apr 4, 2008)

Yes. The vet said that she is making some progress.  I guess that's why she's still doing tests though, to see exactly what the problem is?


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## ChandieLee (Apr 5, 2008)

Hey everyone. Belle is back from the vet. She's doing okay.. she hasn't eaten anything since we got home, which was about an hour ago, but I suppose I should give it some time. 
The diagnosis is GI stasis. What I'm really confused about is how she went from being diagnosed with E. Cunuculi to being diagnosed with GI stasis.


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## Flashy (Apr 5, 2008)

I've been following this thread, even though I haven't responded up until now.

It's good Belle is doing better. However, it does a bit confusing. Have you talked to the vet and questioned what they have said and why they said it and asked about the EC?


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## ChandieLee (Apr 5, 2008)

Belle's vet wasn't there- because it's Saturday, but they had another vet there caring for her today. By the time I got there though, the other vet had left, and the techs couldn't answer my questions.:X They said that Belle's vet would either be calling me tomorrow or Monday.:?


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## Flashy (Apr 5, 2008)

Hmm. It really sounds like you need to know exactly what the vet has to say because this is very confusing and conflicting. If the vet doesn't call, make sure you keep calling to get the answers you need and deserve.


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## ChandieLee (Apr 5, 2008)

Yes. It's very confusing and if I don't get answers soon, I'm going to go crazy. I got instructions from one of the techs (the vet left them with the tech) and it says to keep giving her the panacur. So, I'm left to wonder if she has Gi stasis and E. Cunuculi. 
Oh, I called the vet's office. I guess they close at 3 today, so I'll have to call again the morning.:X


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## Flashy (Apr 5, 2008)

It sucks to be in a place with an ill rabbit and not know what is going on. Hopefully someone can answer your questions soon. *hugs to you for this confusion* It doesn't make a difficult situation any easier.


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## naturestee (Apr 5, 2008)

Well you see, stasis is a SYMPTOM, not a disease. So I think how they explained it to you is a bit wrong. GI stasis can happen when a rabbit is unable or too stressed to eat so the intestines slow down and/or stop moving. It is often secondary to another problem- pain from something, tooth issues preventing them from eating, infection, general stress, etc.

My non-professional theory is that Belle has stasis _because_ of the head tilt, not stasis _and_ head tilt. Head tilt is disorienting- just think if your head was angled wrong all day! It's very stressful and you already noticed that she has trouble eating with her head angled wrong.

What Belle needs is lots of supportive therapy- lots of fluids and some food, syringed if necessary. Pain meds would be nice. If you can get it, Critical Care would be a good choice for syringed food because it includes probiotics to help encourage good bacteria in her gut and extra vitamins to give her energy and support her immune system while she is feeling poorly. If you can't get that (mainly only from vets), you can make something similar by making a mush out of Belle's regular pellets and adding a little bit of Nutri-Cal and Benebac. Canned pure pumpkin is another good syringe-feeding food, and many rabbits really like it. I mix it in the pellet mush to improve the taste, or feed it on it's own if they'll lick it up.

Here's info on stasis, I highly recommend reading through it:
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=28622&forum_id=10

What meds is she getting for the head tilt? Is it just Panacur so far, no antibiotics? Or does she have antibiotics now in case it's an ear infection?


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## ChandieLee (Apr 5, 2008)

Oh okay. Yeah, the techs didn't explain that GI stasis was a symptom...
I do have critical care, but I think I'll get some canned pumpkin as well. Belle is still on the Panacur, but she was not given any pain meds. She's not grinding her teeth, but I know that doesn't mean she can't be in pain. I'll be paying alot of attention to her actions, like whether she's eating, drinking, going to the bathroom, etc.


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## naturestee (Apr 5, 2008)

Try both the Critical Care and the pumpkin, see if she'll maybe lick them off a spoon if you hold it up for her. Maybe she wants to eat but can't position herself right. Otherwise go for syringe feeding. Different people recommend different amounts for syringe feeding, but my vet recommended only 15 mL of food per day (for 2 lb Mocha) to support a bun in stasis, since more might stress them more than they need and you want them to be a bit hungry so they'll eat on their own again when they can. You can give more if she likes it, but my rabbits really hate being syringe fed.

Sucks they didn't send pain meds home.

Edit: Oh, and some vets still treat stasis like it's the actual cause, it kind of depends on their viewpoint. But just like bacteria can be the cause of a runny eye, something is usually the cause of GI stasis.


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## ChandieLee (Apr 5, 2008)

Belle hates being syringe fed too. She always ends up kicking out of my hand in her attempts to gte away. I also wish they would have given her some pain meds. I'll be calling her vet in the morning anyway, so I'll aski if it's possible to get her some pain medication.


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## naturestee (Apr 5, 2008)

Do you have someone there who could help? I have to have James hold Mocha and Loki for me if I need to syringe feed them.


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## ChandieLee (Apr 5, 2008)

Yes. My boyfriend is here. I already talked to him and he agreed to help me.


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## ra7751 (Apr 5, 2008)

I'm concerned again. I am really beginning to wonder just how rabbit savvy the vets are. As I mentioned....EC does not cause head tilt. But head tilt, if it is caused by a painful infection, cancontribute tostasis. 

Again, I am not a vet but based on my many years of experience dealing with issues like this....I really think we have either a vestibular or a dental issue. Either one of those can cause stasis. Stasis is a symptom....not a "root cause" type issue. Stasis is always caused by something else. In this situation....since she is tilted....that leads me to the conclusion that something is causing her pain on the right side of her head. Being in pain can bring on stasis.

Panacur is a dewormer....nothing more. And while it is the most widely used treatment for EC and is considered the best available (and that is debatable) it won't address the tilt or the GI issue.

I am pasting in a list of vets in your general area. This info is from Sweet Binks Rabbit Rescue located in Foster, RI. One of the best rabbit rescues in the country. Have been there in person and met the owner.

[align=left]


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*[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif][size=-1]Rabbits need specialized veterinary care and many veterinarians are not well trained or up-to-date in rabbit medicine and health. If you need (after hours) emergency veterinary assistance, we recommend going to [/size][/font]**[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif][size=-1]Angell Memorial[/size][/font]**[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif][size=-1] or [/size][/font]**[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif][size=-1]Tufts University[/size][/font]**[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif][size=-1] in MA for emergency rabbit treatment. Listed below are the veterinarians that we recommend and have experience with:[/size][/font]*[/align]
*[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif][size=-1] Dr. Daniel Cardosa & Dr. Sharon Chang - Big River Vet Clinic, West Greenwich, RI (401)397-8777
Dr. Dan Simpson - West Bay Animal Hospital,Warwick,RI 401-828-5767
Dr. Susanne Saslaw - Ferguson Animal Hospital, N. Prov RI (401) 353-3352
Dr. Henry Wietsma - North Kingstown, RI (401) 295-9739
Dr. David Lambert - Quinebaug Valley Vet Hospital, Danielson, CT. (860) 774-7650
Dr. Deb Gherke - Pet Partners, Fall River, MA (508)672-4813 [/size][/font][font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif][size=-2](spay/neuter clinic only)[/size][/font][font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif][size=-1] 
Dr. Ken Abrams, Veterinary Ophthalmologist, Warwick, RI 401-738-7337[/size][/font][font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif][size=-2] [/size][/font]*[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif][size=-2](ophthalmology only)
[/size][/font][font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif][size=-1]* How to *[/size][/font]*[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif][size=-1]find[/size][/font]**[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif][size=-1] a good rabbit vet in a different area. [/size][/font]*[/align]

I hope I am totally wrong, but I really think the treatment is in the wrong direction and time is wasting. I strongly suggest a second opinion (and no vet worth their salt will object to a second opinion) on this matter....and the sooner the better.

Randy


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## ChandieLee (Apr 5, 2008)

Tufts University is actually where I brought her in the first place on Wednesday night.
They're the ones who said it was E. Cunuculi.:? The next day, I brought her to her normal vet and she ended up staying until today. Seeing as how she's still not eating (which is weird because I was told on the phone today that she was) I'm going to have to syringe feed her. I would love to get a second opinion on this matter, and I've been racking my brain... there are a couple of problems. The vets that you listed are pretty far away from me and unfortunately I don't drive. My father drives, but he works like all the time. The other problem is money. Over the last couple of days, I spent about $555.00 on vet bills. So right now, I'm pretty much broke. To be honest, I don't want to have to wait until Monday because who knows what can happen between now and then.


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## ChandieLee (Apr 5, 2008)

Well, it appears that Belle is still in pain because she is grinding her teeth again. I made her a rice sock. I don't know how much that will help because I don't know where the pain is coming from. I'm getting frustrated because I'm not quite sure what to do here. OH, and I gave her some canned pumpkin mixed with critical care.


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## AngelnSnuffy (Apr 6, 2008)

I am so sad that this has happened to Belle. Anyway to give her pain meds? Do you have any Metacam? I think this would be great to try to steady the ship with her. Something to help with the pain of this:?.

Oh Chandie, I am so sorry about little Belle.Please give her a hug and kiss from me.

Keep us posted.


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## ChandieLee (Apr 6, 2008)

Unfortunately they didn't prescribe pain meds for her. She was using the rice sock, but she seemed to have gotten sick of it. I'll be calling her vet in the morning to see about pain meds, but if her vet isn't there, I don't know if they'll be able to give me pain meds for her. 
I'll definitely keep you posted. Thanks


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## ChandieLee (Apr 6, 2008)

Hey everyone. More stuff. :?
Belle now has a gurgly stomach. Could this be because I had to syringe her some canned pumpkin and some water? Not only is she not eating, but isn't drinking again either. At this point, I really feel like I could lose it. I don't know what's going on with Belle and I don't want to lose her.


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## Bo B Bunny (Apr 6, 2008)

Will she let you hold her? could you hold her with a warm towel under her and just gently stroke her sides? It could help with gas.


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## Flashy (Apr 6, 2008)

It's really important that around her you stay calm and ok, stress to us by all means, but be calm around her.

Can you give her some simethicone for gas? It won't harm even if its not. She might also need some pedialyte because she is not drinking.

How is she acting? she needs some exercise to help shift the gas, sort of enforced exercise may be necessary. Also tummy rubs, may help as may something like an electric toothbrush, but if its not gas that might cause more harm than good and I'm not confident saying either way.

Fingers crossed for you and Belle!


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## naturestee (Apr 6, 2008)

:yeahthat:

Simethicone= baby gas meds, which you can usually find at any Walmart, grocery store, etc. Give 1 mL every two hours or so. Also, do a gentle tummy massage to help move the gas out. Here's how: http://www.mybunny.org/info/gi_stasis.htm

_[font="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Massaging or vibrating your rabbitâs tummy is one of the best ways to help break up gas bubbles and encourage the gut to âget movingâ. Sit bunny on your lap or on a towel on the counter and with your hands gently knead your rabbitâs abdomen, as deeply as she will allow. If she reacts in a painful manner, stop. You can also vibrate bunnyâs tummy by holding your hand, palm up, under her belly, or one hand on either side of the belly and jiggling as quick as bunny will allow. Do these for as long and as often as bunny will tolerate. Ask your vet to show you where your bunnyâs tummy is, it may not be where you think it is![/font]
_
Definitely syringe more fluids for her, and some food too. The gas buildup is because her intestines are slow, not because you syringed food into her.

I know this is scary, but I really believe that you and Belle can get through this. ray:


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## ChandieLee (Apr 6, 2008)

I can try the simethicone. Last night I even tried to massage her tummy. She wouldn't let me do it for long, but I believe I got a couple of bunny poots. Unfortunately Belle is not very active. She's in pain somewhere, so all she seems to be doing is laying down and grinding her teeth. She's also getting very frustrated with me because I have to keep syringe feeding. Once again, she managed to kick the syringe out of my hand.

I know I have to stay calm while around her, and I'm doing that to the very best of my ability. I just don't know to do, so I have random bouts of crying because I feel like a bad bunny mom.  I need to get Belle into the vet, but I have no money right now at all. I've also talked to my parents, but they can't lend me a hand because they're tight financially as well. The same goes for my siblings. I can't even ask relatives because they are way worse off than me and my family, not to mention that I haven't talked to them in forever. Belle's regular vet doesn't accept payment plans, so I've been trying to find another in Massachusetts that does, but it's Sunday and vet's offices don't seem to be open. And that causes one more problem: I wanted to get Bellein today because my dad will be working the entire week,until about 5-ish, and most of them close around 4. :X I feel like the only way I can get Belle the help that she needs is to re-home her. I love Belle very much, and I don't want to have to just give her away, but at the moment, I don't see any other options.

Sorry about my vent. I just kind of let my emotions go.


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## Flashy (Apr 6, 2008)

Don't ever be sorry for venting, venting is good.

It's clear how much you love Belle and just want what is best for her, and it's so clear how confused and stressed you are. Keep venting if it helps.

Do you have any forum members hear you who can maybe come and help in anyway?

Do you have any metacam? Maybe giving her pain meds might help her.

Also, do you know how to do Sub Q fluids? That might possiblybe a good thing for her to have. 

Is she pooing or anything? Simethicone won't hurt her and she might like the taste. 

I wish I could help. If you do want to vent, then feel free to PM me.


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## naturestee (Apr 6, 2008)

:hug:

Does your vet take Care Credit? It's a credit card just for veterinary or medical bills.
http://www.carecredit.com/

Or you can search for a vet that takes it here:
http://www.carecredit.com/apply/index.html

The great thing about Care Credit is that if you follow their payment plan, there's no interest. It can be really helpful in times like this. My vet takes Care Credit and so does my emergency vet.


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## ChandieLee (Apr 6, 2008)

They actually do accept care credit, but for some reason when I asked them if they had a payment plan, they didn't tell me about care credit. :grumpy:The emergency vet that I took Belle to on Wednesday also accepts it. I was on the website and had my dad look over it and now he doesn't think it's a good idea.:?I explained about the no interest plan too. I'm probably just going to go ahead and apply anyway, because this may be my only option.


Nevermind. I don't believe I am eligible for Care Credit anyway.


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## ChandieLee (Apr 6, 2008)

Okay, so I'm not having any progress in getting Belle to the vet... but I'd very much so like to alleviate her pain. I know of metacam, which unfrotunately I won't be able to get until probably tomorrow. In the meantime, is there anything else that I can use? Possibly Ibuprofen or even aspirin or baby aspirin?


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## Pipp (Apr 6, 2008)

I use Baby Motrin (Ibuprofen) when Pipp has a dental issue and I'm out of Metacam. She's just under 3lbs and gets a quarter of a tab. 

There's a great 'Pain Management' post in the Library, I'll see if my computer will cooperate and let me pull up the link for you. 

PS: We do ask that all Infirmary correspondence is posted and that people avoid IMing with Infirmary Mods. Even though they'reoften accomodating, it doesn't help others now and in thefuture with similar issues needinginformation. It's far more educational, and it's alsosafer, seeing as others can view the info and correct any inadvertent mistakes,offer their own experiences, etc. 

:thanks:

sas :bunnydance:


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## Flashy (Apr 6, 2008)

Thank you Pipp.

I was hoping someone who knew what they were talking about would reply, so thank you! I can pull up the link easier than you I should think. So I can sort that if you like.


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## Flashy (Apr 6, 2008)

Pain Management

I can't believe I didn't think to look for a section on that. Oops, sorry ChandieLee.


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## ChandieLee (Apr 6, 2008)

I've got the baby motrin, and will be giving that to her. Hopefully it'll take away enough of the pain to make her comfortable and able to to eat. How often should I be giving her a quarter of a tablet?

I also just read the pain managemt thread. Belle's vet sent her home with the diagnosis of GI stasis, and after reading that, I'm pretty agitated that she didn't send Belle home with pain meds. :grumpy: I will be making yet another call tomorrow to try and get these meds for her. If they won't prescribe them for her, I am definitely going else where. I also need her to tell me what the root of the problem could be, that way we can fix it so Belle can go back to her normal self. It's just hurting me to see her like this.


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## Flashy (Apr 6, 2008)

:hug:I hope she feels better with the baby motrin.


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## Pipp (Apr 6, 2008)

For the record I just read a post elsewhere that mentioneda woman's vet told her thatout of 100 lop-earred rabbits he sees with head tilt, 99 willhave ear problems, and only one will have EC. 

Belle's not a lop, but it still reiterates Randy's position. 


*ra7751 wrote: *


> I see progress being made here. Metacam is a NSAID....along the lines of our Tylenol.


Minor clarification, though... Tylenol isn't an NSAID... I've been meaning to add this to the Library file, it's from Tylenol.com. (And in case anybody mistook Randy's reference, he's not recommending it, it's not recommended for rabbits). 

_*Drug Interactions* 
Many of the medicines frequently used to treat arthritis pain belong to a class of medicines called NSAIDs (Non-steroidal anti-inflammatories). Commonly used OTC NSAIDs include aspirin, ibuprofen (MotrinÂ® IB), and naproxen sodium (AleveÂ®), as well as traditional prescription NSAIDs (such as indomethalin, ibuprofen, etc.) and COX-2 inhibitors, like CelebrexÂ®. These drugs work by blocking the production of substances in the body that cause pain and inflammation._

_NSAIDs may interact with common prescription medicines for high blood pressure._

_The medicine in Tylenol is not an NSAID. Itâs a pain reliever that works differently. And unlike Aleve, which may interact with many blood pressure medications, Tylenol wonât. Patients should always read and follow labeled directions on the medications they are taking. Tylenol should not be used with other acetaminophen-containing products._


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## Flashy (Apr 7, 2008)

How is Belle today? I really hope that there is some good news. Thinking of you!


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## ChinaBun (Apr 7, 2008)

I'm crossing my fingers for her, too. And hoping you can find ways to calm yourself in a stressful situation.


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## ChandieLee (Apr 7, 2008)

Ok... I have an update for everyone.

Belle still hadn't been eating or drinking this morning, so I called her vet only to be told that they couldn't see her today. The soonest appointment they had was on Wednesday. I knew I couldn;t wait that long, so I called another vet to see if they took emergencies, and luckily for Belle, they do. Well, when I got there, the vet did an examination. Her ears are fine, but her gums are a bit inflamed and bloody from grinding them so much. Other than that, her teeth are fine. She checked her temperature and it was 102. Then, she checked Belle's stomach and abdomen, and that's when Belle got upset and tried to wriggle free. Belle's stomach and abdomen were very hard. I told her that Belle's regular vet had sent her home with the diagnosis GI stasis, but this vet said it was worse than stasis... she used a word that started wuth I believe an M, but I just can't remember what the word is. She then asked the nurse to call Belle's regular vet to get her record faxed over, but they won't fax them over until I can get over there and sign a release form. 
Belle is now going to be staying there for 2-4 nights. They want to do some x-rays and unblock her stomach. They'll be giving metacam, SQ fluids and other medications that will unblock her stomach.
I've decided that I'm switching Belle and Necro over to the vet I brought her to today. I think it's just horrible that it took 3 trips to get Belle on the right track:grumpy:.
Right now that's all I really know. I can call anytime to see how she's doing, and they'll be calling to keep me posted. When I know more, I'll let you all know what's going on.

Thanks for all the support everyone. :hug2:

-Chandra


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## Flashy (Apr 7, 2008)

I am SO glad that Belle is getting some decent treatment. I really hope that they can help her through this.

I've been keeping her in my thoughts and was desperate for an update. Have you found a way to finance the treatment?

You know where I am.

x


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## Flashy (Apr 10, 2008)

*bump* I can see you're online, so I just wondered how Belle was?


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## ChandieLee (Apr 10, 2008)

Hey. I got an update for everyone.
Belle is home. She's been home for like an hour now.

She seems to be doing loads better than before. She's out and about, exploring at the moment. 

She's eating hay and pellets somewhat on her own again. She's not eating as much as the vet wanted so I still need to syringe feed her a bit. They sent home some already made syringes of Oxbow Critical Care with prozyme and papaya. They also sent her home with 5 different medications; Propulsid, Lactulose, Meloxicam, Baytril, Flagyl. Like I said before, this last vet that saw Belle said it was worse than stasis, I think the word she used was hypomotility. They also treated her for an inner ear infection because of the head tilt, which no longer seems to be there, but I will keep an eye out for it. Belle has an appointment on Monday. The vet wants to make sure she is still doing well by then.
Altogether, Belle's vet bills came up to $1,116.00, most of which my lovely boyfriend paid for. So, if it weren't for him, I probably would have had to re-home her so she could get the help that she needed. He is a life-saver. :hearts


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## AngelnSnuffy (Apr 10, 2008)

I'm relieved to hear Belle is doing better. What a boyfriend you have there, that is wonderful of him to do for you and Belle.

Keep us posted on how she's doing.


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## Flashy (Apr 11, 2008)

I am so, SO relieved to hear that she is doing better. I'm sorry the bill was so hefty though, but it does sound like the vet did a far better job than before. Your boyfriend sounds pretty wonderful.

I really am glad Belle is back and I hope she keeps improving.


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## ChandieLee (Apr 11, 2008)

Another update..
Once again, Belle doesn't seem to be doing good. 
She didn't touch her food today, and only drank a little water on her own.
I've been syringe feeding her and giving her the meds she was sent home with exactly as instructed. The vet that Belle saw recently wantes to see her on Monday, but I really don't think that's soon enough, and I don't believe they are open on the weekends. There are two other places that I can think of that will be open, but of course, there is another problem. 
This past week, Belle's vet bills came up to a little over $1,000.00, most of which my boyfriend paid, and I'm afraid he's helped me as much as he can. I now officially have no way to pay for anymore vet bills. I have maybe 1 or 2 things that I could sell on craigslist, but there's no way I would get enough money to pay for another 3 night stay at the vet's office. I'm going to look around and see if there's anything else I could sell on craigslist...
The only other thing I can think of to get Belle all the help she needs is to re-home her.  I honestly don't want to have to do this. I love her so much. 
It may be my only option. I also have to think about Necro in this situation as well. Belle and Necro are bonded, and I would like to keep them together if this is something that I have to do, but would it hurt him more to be with her while she's sick this way? I know it would be better for Belle because she would have the support of her bestfriend... but I need to keep the best interest of both of them in mind.
At this moment, I'm not really sure what I'm going to do, but any ideas, comments and even criticism would be helpful and appreciated at this point.
As always, thanks for listening.

-Chandra


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## Flashy (Apr 12, 2008)

Aw hun, what a horrible situation.

I don't really have anything to suggest that might help. I personally think Necro and Belle would be better together and that it wouldn't harm him to be with her, although it might be harder to monitor her. But I didn't know if your question was in relation to being at your house or being rehomed, in which case, things might be different and you might have to look at what you feel is best.

I'm so so sorry you are all going through this. My PM box is open if you need a chat or anything.

Take care of yourself.


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## Flashy (Apr 13, 2008)

Hey,

I just wondered how you were doing with this situation and how things were.

Thinking of you all.

x


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## naturestee (Apr 13, 2008)

I'm sorry I haven't responded yet but I just don't know what to say. I know it's very discouraging to see her so ill and be completely run out of money. At least it sounds like she's getting proper treatment now, and I know you're doing everything you can for her.

I don't know if giving her up would be a solution simply because it would be so hard to find someone who is willing to take care of her and her immediate health problems. If you can find someone who is willing to do that and that you trust, then search your heart to decide what to do. It's tough for any of us to know what to say about that since we don't really know you in "real life," and I don't think any of us can or should judge you no matter what you do.

I do think it would be best for Necro to be with her. The likelihood that he'll get sick from her is extremely low, as far as I know ear infections don't spread and the majority of rabbits have already been exposed to E. cuniculi, it's more a matter of how their body deals with it. I know Mocha's been an excellent nurse to Loki since he's been ill, and even though it makes it harder for me to see exactly whose poop that is and who's eating what and how much, it makes him happier to be with her.

Instead of having to take her to the vet each time, I wonder if your vet would do a phone consultation to check up on her? You probably wouldn't get charged for that, at least I don't. 

:hug:


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## ChandieLee (Apr 13, 2008)

Thanks for the responses. 

I have a bit of good news. Just when I thought things wouldn't get any better, Belle ate a tiny bit of greens on her own. :biggrin2: :yes: And she drank some water on her own. She even has some tiny poops. I have to say, I never thought I'd be so excited about bunny poop.  I am trying to be very positive about this situation now... I think that if she continues to make a bit of progress everything will be okay. My heart was breaking just thinking about the fact that I may have needed to re-home Belle and Necro. I'm glad that there seems to be a light at the end of this tunnel.
I can ask her vet about phone consultations instead. Goodnes knows that would be so mcu easier on my wallet. It would probably be alot easier for Belle too. Less stress.  Thanks for the idea. I'll be either talking to the vet tomorrow or bringing Belle in for a visit. I'll let you guys know what happens. 

-Chandra


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## naturestee (Apr 13, 2008)

I'm so glad to see some good news!!!


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## AngelnSnuffy (Apr 14, 2008)

Did you go to the vet today, Chandie? How did it go? How's Belle doing today?


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## ChandieLee (Apr 15, 2008)

Sorry it took until today to give an update- the internet in my neighborhood was out.:X

I took Belle to the vet yesterday. They're still pretty concerned since she barely wants to eat on her own. They gave her sq fluids and want to see her again Thursday. She's still on the meds they prescribed for her. Belle's still alert, which is good though. 
I'll keep you guys updated.


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## naturestee (Apr 15, 2008)

ray:

It is good she's alert. Is she showing any interest in food? Is she back with Necro, and how are they doing together?


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## AngelnSnuffy (Apr 15, 2008)

Glad to hear it. I'll continue to have her in my thoughtsray:. Give her a kiss from me.


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## ChandieLee (Apr 18, 2008)

Just wanted to give an update- I would have given one sooner, but for some reason, the internet was out again.:grumpy:
Belle is making a slow recovery. She's eating a very small amount of pellets and lettuce on her own. She still won't touch her hay though. Her next appointment is in two weeks, unless she gets worse again. Then I'll have to bring her asap. Belle and Necro have been together, yes. Necro seems to be calmging her nerves alot.


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## naturestee (Apr 18, 2008)

:jumpforjoy:

I'm so glad she's eating on her own!

Have you tried cutting her hay into small pieces and mixing it with her pellets? She might have an easier time eating it then. I know my rabbits sometimes move their heads around when eating a stubborn piece of hay, but she wouldn't be able to do that and might feel uncomfortable.


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## ChandieLee (Apr 28, 2008)

Hey. I just wanted to update.
Belle is doing okay, kinda. She's drinking water again, but she's still barely eating on her own, so I've still been syringe feeding her three times a day. She's still taking three of the meds she was originally prescribed- Lactulose, Propulsid and Meloxicam. Belle has also lost weight do to all of this. I'm not sure of her weight at the moment, but she will be going to the vet's the Friday, and I'm going to make sure they weigh her. I'm actuallu kind of worried about that... My boyfriend bathed her yesterday because we had gotten her food all over her because she squirmed quite a bit. I went to see how her bath was going and I noticed that her two front legs looked like twigs. It came as such a shock to me because I remember them having some muscle. And now when I pick her up, she feels rather boney. She's not having a hard time walking or anything, so I don't think her legs are all that frail, but still, I'm kind of concerned about it. She's still alert though, and she's still got the attitude she's always had, so I really don't think she's willing to give up, and I'm glad. I'm just not sure about the whole weight issue at the moment.


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## juliew19673 (Apr 29, 2008)

You may think about investing in pet insurance, for future issues; costs about $10 a month and covers alot of common ailments, most that I've seen will cover upto $3000 on specific occurrences.


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## ChandieLee (May 5, 2008)

I've been looking into pet insurance, but I can't find one that willcover rabbits. I have a brochure from the aspca, but it seems they only cover cats and dogs.I brought Belle to the vet Friday, along with Necro. She's basically just maintaining.... she's not getting worse and she's not getting better. Since she's gotten sick, Belle has lost about half a pound, maybe a tad bit more, and the muscles in her front legs are wasting away it seems. Since she's just kind of maintaining, the vet did some blood work, now I'm just waiting for the results to come back. She's still very alert and drinking water on her own. She eats a bit of pellets on her own too, but she's really not pooping much. Hopefully this will all be figured out soon.


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## tonyshuman (May 5, 2008)

Just reading this now--I hope things continue to improve for your baby! How scary. Your story has made me think that vet insurance might be a good thing for me too. You can get it for rabbits from VPI: www.petinsurance.com . As far as I can tell, they're the only US pet insurance firm that covers rabbits (under the avian and exotic plan). It's about $120 a year, or $10/month (+processing fee). The problem that's holding me back from getting it is that it really won't help unless you have some catastrophic emergency. For instance, it won't help you pay for tooth trims or annual well-bunny check ups. But your story may convince me that it's worth it!


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## AngelnSnuffy (May 8, 2008)

Chandie, how is Belle doing? 

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but have you checked into getting Care Credit for the vet bills? You would be able to make monthly payments with that. You can use it at vets and alot ofplaces take it.


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## Offspring2099 (May 9, 2008)

I've been following this thread since it started, I just want to say that I pray that your little one gets better. 

***

I have VPI insurance. And they are not bad, but I doubt they will cover a pre-existing condition. They will request medical history. Just givin you a heads up.


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## ChandieLee (May 9, 2008)

Belle is still maintaining-no better, but she isn't getting worse. I definitely would like to get insurance for both Belle and Necro. And, yes, I checked into Care Credit- I applied and I guess I don't qualify :grumpy:. And thanks for the well wishing everyone . I'm sure Belle appreciates all the love. :biggrin2: I'm still looking into different insurances too. And if I go with VPI, and they don't cover a pre-existing problem, that may be okay, depending on how Belle does for now.


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## AngelnSnuffy (May 10, 2008)

I'm so glad to hear she's not any worse.

Could you have your boyfriend try applying for the Care Credit? Maybe he would qualify, worth a shot.


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## ChandieLee (May 13, 2008)

I have to bring Belle back to the vet today... I got a call yesterday from her vet; she wanted to talk about Belle's blood test results. Two of the tests came back abnormal: the test for her kidneys and the test for her liver. :? Her vet suggested an ultrasound, which we'll be discussing today. Unfortunately the ultrasound can't be done today. I guess the tech goes in on Tuesdays and Thrusdays, but they'd have to call him/her before hand. I'm going over to the health section now to see if I can find anything about the kindeys or the liver, but just in case I can't find anything, does anyone know what type of problems bunnies can have with those organs?
Thanks, as always.


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## bunbunbinkie (May 13, 2008)

Hi... Im new to this forum and I just noticed your thread... I just wanted to let you know you and Belle are in my thoughts and prayers.

I don't know anything really about kidneys and livers in buns... I hope you find some good information, and I hope someone who has some knowledge about these issuessees this thread.

I'll be praying for you and your Belle.:hug:ray:


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## bunbunbinkie (May 13, 2008)

I found this site searching on google.... I'm not sure if it will help you but I thought i might give it a try...



http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=18&cat=1804&articleid=3318


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## ChandieLee (May 13, 2008)

Thankyou much.  The article did help actually. Now I know what questions to ask the vet when I go later today. I will update whn I get back to the vet- if my computer will let me. :X


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## ChandieLee (May 13, 2008)

So, I'm back from the vet. Belle had to stay again. She's not doing well. Again.  The vet wants to do another radiograph because it seems whatever the problem is has moved to the lower part of the abdomen/stomach. There's alos the chance that there may be something wrong with her kidneys and/or liver- a possible infection. When I find out more, I'll update. Please keep Belle in your thoughts.


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## bunbunbinkie (May 13, 2008)

:sighoor Belle. I really hope she pulls through this nasty thing. 

Im sure you have already looked online about E. cuniculi, but here are some more sites I found... about symptoms/treatments etc..... I'll definately keep you and Belle in my prayers!

http://www.rabbitnetwork.org/articles/treatment.shtml

http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-2/e-cuniculi.html


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## naturestee (May 13, 2008)

Oh no! Not more problems for Belle!

E. cuniculi can cause kidney problems. I don't know that it causes liver problems, but sudden weight loss can and I wouldn't be surprised if she's dropped a lot of weight with all these problems.

Why is she being kept overnight? They could teach you to do sub-q fluids at home. I can't really think of any other reason for her to stay overnight unless there's a bunch of stuff she needs that is more than you can handle. Don't be afraid to put your foot down and keep Belle at home if you can provide her with what she needs. I know how quicklyovernight feesadd up!


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## Maureen Las (May 13, 2008)

I just read this thread through for the first time!
I really feely bad for you and Belle. 

Believe me I know whats it like to have a chronically sick rabbit..but not as sick as Belle has been.
I know whats its like ..every vet visit running up hundreds of $$ and the bunny still isn't well.
I certainly hope that someone gets to the bottom of the problem and puts it all together . It seems like they have been dealing with the emergencies but still haven't diagnosed the root of the problems. 

I hope that you find out soon.
ray:ray:ray:


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## JadeIcing (May 15, 2008)

Poor Belle. She is a special little girl.


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## Gilbert and Sullivan (May 16, 2008)

Any new word on Belle? She's in my thoughts!


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## AngelnSnuffy (May 16, 2008)

You guys are in my thoughts as well for sure! Any updates?:hug:


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## ChandieLee (May 16, 2008)

Okay- an uodate.

Belle is home- and she's doing okay. She's got a new med- Reglan, and it's helping her poop. When I left her there Tuesday evening, she wasn't really pooping, and her vet said soon after she had given Belle the Reglan, she kind of started going- which is definitely better than not going to the bathroom at all. They also did another radiograph- and it now looks like she may have a kdney stone. So, they have to do a urine test for her... another result that I'll have to wait for. As for the kidney and liver problems that may be there, they want to wait a couple of weeks to see if the meds and feedings four times a day help anything... I guess an ultrasound can be really expensive here. Plus, they're not quite sure if she needs one. Oh, before I forget... if Belle does have a kidney stone, will it pass, or will she need surgery to have it removed? I've been reading, and I've come to find that she may have to have surgery. And I know how riskey surgery can be for rabbits.:? So, although she seems to be getting better, it also seems like we keep running into more complications. Poor Belle just can't get a break.


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## Jenk (May 16, 2008)

*ChandieLee wrote: *


> ...So, although she seems to be getting better, it also seems like we keep running into more complications. Poor Belle just can't get a break.


I've just today found this thread. I apologize for the delay.

You and Belle are in my thoughts. :hug: Please give her pets for me.

Your Belle and my Zoe seem to have something in common: continual medical issues. If youever need to talk, please PM me;I empathize with what you must be experiencing right now. 

Jenk


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## bunbunbinkie (May 19, 2008)

Hows Belle doing? I thought about her alot this past weekend... hope things are looking up for her (and you... you poor dears!!!)

:hug2:


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## ChandieLee (May 20, 2008)

Thanks for keeping her in your thoughts. I think the thoughts and prayers from everyone on the forum plus her strong-willed personality are the thing keeping her going. So thanks. Belle is doing okay. She's still not eating much on her own, but she's pooping a tad bit more and drinking water on her own. I got a call from her vet earlier and she definitely wants Belle to get an ultrasound of her gut/bladder area. With everything happening though, Belle is still very bright and alert, and I know that she's not ready to give up.


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## AngelnSnuffy (May 20, 2008)

Thank goodness, Chandie. I've been so worried about her and you!


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## ChandieLee (May 24, 2008)

Just stopping in to update, kinda.

Belle is still doing the same- still no better or worse, but I noticed something.I was watching Belle eat the tiniest bit of pellets a few minutes ago, and she was chewing on the right side of her mouth- the side her head has been tilting to. Well, it seems that maybe it hurts her to eat because after she chewed, she made a jerk motion to the right and kinda spun a bit, then took another pellet. Chew, jerk motion, spin. The vet has checked her teeth multiple times and she said they look very well, but now after seeing this, I'm not entirely convinced. Considering everything that's going on, Belle's still her demanding diva self.She even binkied today, which is something I haven't seen her do in like a month now.


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## AngelnSnuffy (May 24, 2008)

Chandie, I'm so glad Belle is no worse. Thanks for updating us. I love Miss Belle!


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## AngelnSnuffy (May 29, 2008)

How is Belle doing, Chandie? I've been thinking about you guys.


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## juliew19673 (May 29, 2008)

Could Belle be having a tooth root problem on top of everything else? I love that she is still binkying about so that sounds all good and positive and would love to hear an update to it all!


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## tonyshuman (May 29, 2008)

[align=left]:yeahthat:
[/align]


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## ChandieLee (May 29, 2008)

Thanks for keeping her in your thoughts 
Belle seems to be getting better slowly. She's gradually eating more on her own, well, she's trying to anyway. She still does that little jerk motion when she eats. This morning, and yesterday, I got her to eat a bit of banana.  Although, it still seems like she's not pooping as much as she should be. 
Maybe it could be a tooth root problem. How would I go out about finding out though? The vet says her teeth look fine... but I don't know. She goes in today, so I'll definitely discuss that with the vet. I'll update when I get home.


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## Offspring2099 (Jun 3, 2008)

When our Penny got her first tooth problem, 2 doctors couldn't figure out what was wrong. Until she started to drool a little. 
Then the 3rd vet, (ours current) took her and anethetized her and could feel that one of her teeth was loose. 

Her simptoms where that she was so eager to eat, but when she would start she would nible and quickly stop.


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## juliew19673 (Jun 3, 2008)

Hey Chandie there is a thread on here somewhere in the Infirm I believe Randy said the only definitive way was to get either an Xray or Ultrasound of the head to see the roots.. I'll dig through and see if I can find it and post back the links.. Hope the Vets suggests this!



EDIT: Here is a link from the library: http://homepage.mac.com/mattocks/morfz/rabrefs.html#teeth


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## ChandieLee (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks for the replies guys. 

I apologize for not updating sooner. My computer is very old and doesn't always want to cooperate. Anyway, I brought Belle to the vet, and asked her to look at Belle's teeth and it turns out that Belle has some scratches on the lower left side of her mouth.:grumpy: How they didn't find this before, I don't know, but it's kind of frustrating. I also asked her if there could be a problem with the roots. She said the only way they can find out is an x-ray. So as of now, she needs an x-ray of her mouth and an ultra-sound, both of which need to be sceduled in advance. 
Okay, on to how Belle's doing now; As I type this Belle is munching on some endive.  She seems to be eating more greens, but she's having a hard time with her pellets and her hay. Sometimes, she'll pick up a pellet, then drop it, and other times, she'll eat half of the pellet and drop the rest, but I don't think she's drooling. And just like before, after chewing part of the pellet, she'll kind of jerk her head and do a little spin. BUT, she's still bright and alert. She's moving around the house like she owns the place and I've even seen her do a few binkies, so I know she's not willing to give up. Please forgive me if this seems a bit ignorant, but I was wondering whether the x-ray or the ultra-sound is more important? I understand that an ultra-sound is needed to check out her gut/bladder area, but I'm thinking that the x-ray should come first because if something is wrong with Belle's teeth, the vet can fix them, and maybe she'll be able to eat her pellets again. It's just a thought.


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## tonyshuman (Jun 5, 2008)

I'm not sure which is more important, but I bet they'd like to do them at the same time so that they can only anesthetize her once. They probably need to do that for both procedures, and the anesthesia is usually the most expensive part of a procedure, so it would be cheaper to do them both at once than separately. I'd double check if that's what they mean.


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## juliew19673 (Jun 9, 2008)

Just checking in to see if there are any updates on the eating probl? Give Belle a nose rub for me!


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## ChandieLee (Jun 11, 2008)

Sorry for the delay in update...

Belle is eating a bit more on her own now... not asmuch as she should be though. I can get her to eat some greens, but she's still avoiding the pellets and hay. I am really guessing it's her teeth. Sooo, she needs an x-ray on her roots. As soon as I get those results, I'll let you know.


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## ChandieLee (Jun 20, 2008)

Belle seems to be doing alot better :biggrin2:

She's eating more, pooping, drinking water. I'm not sure if I should take her off medication though. Nor am I sure if I should be syringe feeding her if she's eating by herself. I'm kind of afraid to stop either of them because I don't want her to get really sick again. :?


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## AngelnSnuffy (Jun 20, 2008)

So glad she's doing better! 

Are you still going to have the xrays done on her teeth? It totally sounds like that's what it is that's keeping her from eating hay and pellets. I wouldn't take her off her meds in case it is her teeth and having the meds is keeping her eating what she is.


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## ChandieLee (Jun 20, 2008)

Oh yeah, I definitely still want xrays done on Belle's teeth. Her vet, however, says that in order to do that, Belle would have to be given an anesthetic which could make her stasis worse, so she thinks that doing it now may not be the best idea... :? Is that true? Could it make Belle worse off than she is already?


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## AngelnSnuffy (Jun 20, 2008)

Chandie, I'm actually not sure on that one. I suppose coming off the anestetic could make her not eat for a bit, so that could be a reason, but honestly, I'm not sure. Hopefully someone else might know.


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## ChandieLee (Jun 25, 2008)

Well, I am completely happy to say that Belle has been eating like a cow for the past couple of days, just like she used to. :biggrin2:I will be bringing her to the vet hopefully by tomorrow or Friday for a check-up and to talk about doing an x-ray for her teeth and the ultrasound. I've been saving money for both of these things, and I'm pretty sure I've got enough for both now. I am a bit hesitant to have the x-rays done though- I still don't know whether the anesthesia could cause her to become ill again. :?Any thoughts? Should I go on with the x-rays anyway? should I wait and see if she continues to eat and drink on her own??

At the moment, though, I am completely over-joyed that she seems to be her self again! Thanks for all the support everyone!! I know that without RO's help, I probably would have lost her... I owe RO so much. Hopefully by the end of this week I can make a donation. :biggrin2:



inkbouce::dancingorig::rofl::thanks::bunny18:yahoo:


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## AngelnSnuffy (Jun 25, 2008)

That is wonderful to hear, Chandie! Yay Belle! I hope she stays this way. Now, we just need a pic of the little sweetie.


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## ChandieLee (Jun 26, 2008)

I know this is an old pic, but it's my favorite! 

I also had much help with this picture from picnik.com. I am not all that artistic unfortunately, but I wanted to share it anyways.


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## Maureen Las (Jun 26, 2008)

Very very cute bun 

I have sort of jumped into this "cold " having to do some reading of previous pages so I may not have all the facts correct.

I would do as your vet suggests re. the x-rays if you have a really knowledgeable vet.

If your vet feels that you should wait with the anesthesia you probably should . 

I have had a lot of major dental work done on Beau ,my holland lop, by an animal dentist who is rabbit saavy. 

Since he uses a mask he has total control over bringing Beau in and out of consciousness. For ex. he can put Beau "out" to pull a tooth, take the mask off, do something else and then reapply the mask and then put him under again . 

Beau has never had any issues with stasis from anesthesia. 

On the other hands the shelter female rabbits often have some difficulty eating and pooping after spays because the surgeries are more prolonged and the anesthesia injectable and this is another vet clinic altogether

I would have some concerns that your vet is concerned re. the anethesia

dental x-rays and an ultrasounds do not seem like they would require to much anesthesia

maybe you can fill me in a little on what I've missed re. Belle's original stasis and your most recent vet


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## AngelnSnuffy (Jun 26, 2008)

Thanks for sharing that pic of Belle! She's so cute. I haven't seen that pic, so thanks!


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## ChandieLee (Jun 27, 2008)

I can fill you in. No problem. 

Well, back in April, I awoke to find Belle tilting her head to right, and upon further inspection, I found that she hadn't eaten nor pooped. Since her then regular vet couldn't see her, I had to bring her to the emergency vet, Tufts, which is supposed to be one of the best. They ended up sending her home with Panacur, saying that it "seemed" like she had E. Cunuculi and if she still hadn't eaten, to take her to her regular vet the next day. The next comes, and she still hadn't eaten or pooped. I brought her in and she was hospitalized for a couple days. When I picked her up, I was told that Belle was having GI Stasis, and she wasn't sent home with meds. A couple days after that, I called her then regular vet's office and told them that Belle really wasn't making any progress and actually seemed worse, and of course, they couldn't take her in. I called another vet, her now regular vet, and made an appointment there. She was once again hospitalized, and the vet said that Belle was suffering hypomotility. She was also sent gome with Propulsid, Lactulose, Meloxicam, Baytril, Flagyl. Since then Belle's had her ups and downs; she was hospitalized once more, she's been syringe fed four times a day up until very recently, she's been poked and prodded, and she's had a bunch of xrays of her stomach area. Though at the moment she's still eating just like she used to, drinking water and she's playful.:biggrin2:

I hope that helped. 



And you're welcome! I thought I added it to Belle and Necro's blog, but if not, I can.


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## AngelnSnuffy (Jun 27, 2008)

*ChandieLee wrote: *


> And you're welcome! I thought I added it to Belle and Necro's blog, but if not, I can.


I did! No prob!


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## Maureen Las (Jun 27, 2008)

This is what I think that I would do but is only my opinion. 

The vet that is treating her hypomotility sounds to me like he knows what he's doing.
based on the drugs he gave her and also the instructions he gave you. 
If he wanted to dox-rays and an ultrasound now I would trust his judgement.

But if he feels that it would be better to wait awhileuntil she is absolutely and totally stabilized and then do them laterI would wait. 

If she is eating everything including hay then that is positive. 
I'm glad that she has come so far


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## ChandieLee (Jun 27, 2008)

*angieluv wrote: *


> This is what I think that I would do but is only my opinion.
> 
> The vet that is treating her hypomotility sounds to me like he knows what he's doing.
> based on the drugs he gave her and also the instructions he gave you.
> ...



I completely agree with everything you've said. 

Belle's appointment is next Thursday, unless there's an emergency and she needs to be seen asap.

I'm going to ask her vet whether she thinks giving Belle the anesthetics for the xrays and the ultrasound are a good idea, and I will trust her judgement. 

As always, I will keep you all posted. :biggrin2:


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## ChandieLee (Jul 5, 2008)

Well, Belle is fine. She's been eating on her own for a little over a week.

I talked to the vet about the ultrasound and she doesn't see a reason to do it. The thing that kept showing up in the radiographs was a small bit if calcification. (sp?) She also ruled out the possibility that it was in her bladder because she never had any symptoms of any type of bladder infection.

As for the xrays for her teeth, she wants to make sure that Belle is 100%better before she does them because the anesthetics can make GI problems worse.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 5, 2008)

Wow I'm so glad that she is doing so well

Keep us posted!


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## naturestee (Jul 5, 2008)

I'm just catching up on this. I'm so glad Belle is doing so well! 

:jumpforjoy::great:


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## KatyH (Jul 6, 2008)

Hi 

I'm new to the group but wanted to say I'm really pleased to hear that your bunny Belle is getting over the headtilt.

My Lara went through this a while back, so wanted to offer my support.

Glad she's on the mend!


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