# At what point do you stop trying to pick up an unruly bunny?



## Sophie's Humble Servant (Dec 10, 2013)

I read many of you say that you need to be firm and confident when picking up your rabbit. This makes sense. It's also been stated that once you have decided to pick them up, you must follow through or they won't take you seriously. This also makes sense. 

Now the dilemma...

Sophie always knows when I'm up to no good lol...her spidey senses begin to tingle and before I can place my hand under her belly, she's off to the races!

I've tried the slow approach and I'm not having any success. She did get to the point where I was able to touch her belly and rump but as soon as I made the motion of picking up/flipping she totally freaks out. 

My question is: when do you stop trying if you're not getting any success. I know you shouldn't give up on handling them but in the moment, if they're getting agitated or stressed out, should you stop? I don't want to traumatize Sophie and that's my worry with this. 

I wish someone would post a video of them dealing with their unruly, biting, kicking rabbit so that I could see what to do. These videos of nice calm bunnies.'all sugary sweet and behaving nice make me sick lol.


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## Sophie's Humble Servant (Dec 10, 2013)

I'd also like to see how you guys would grab your bunnies out of their cages! I know it's good to let them to out on their own but what if there's an emergency and you have to get them out fast! That's what I'm worried about.


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## Ape337 (Dec 10, 2013)

Honestly, I never pick up my rabbits. When it's time for inspections/nail trims I get them into a carrier and transport them to my dining room table. It's glass and they can't get a grip so it's easy for hubby to hold them down while I cut nails/check up on body parts/whatever else is needed. I got the idea bc this is how it's done at the vet with no issues. It's very non-stressful for me and my buns, and the important jobs get done. That's what really matters right? All 3 of my buns were disposable pets so I didn't have any of them from the baby stage. One of my buns (faith) is very traumatized from her previous home and even after being with me for almost 2 years she still can't be petted. I accept them for who they are and I love them all, even if I can't hold/cuddle/pet them (freckles and humma love pets but don't want to be picked up).

Don't beat yourself up if you're not "tough" enough. I'm not going to stress my rabbits out by grabbing them when I have found a perfectly acceptable way of getting the job done with little stress on them. I did the assertive way with freckles for a while when I first adopted him and he got to the point where I couldn't touch him because he was afraid of me. I wasn't rough with him and I didn't hurt him, but he really just didn't want to be picked up. With using this other way he is fine now and loves to be petted again. There are many ways to achieve the same goal. The point isn't how it's done, just that it gets done. Good luck to you &#128522;


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## zombiesue (Dec 10, 2013)

Sometimes you will need to pick up your rabbit. I don't think you really need to bend the animal to your will to let it know that you're in charge, but it doesn't hurt to get it used to occasional handling. 

When I need my rabbits, I take their litterbox out of their cage (because they always hop in it when they know I want to grab them) and then I just kinda go for it. If he tries to hide in his box, I will dump him out of the box. 

Sometimes, when my littler rabbits kick a lot, I kind of set them down again and hold them in place on the floor and pet them, trying to calm them down, then I quickly pick them up and draw them against my chest.

Sometimes it helps to go at a rabbit with a towel. Drop the towel on him/her and scoop her up in it. Keeping their faces covered really reduces their fear and I think that it helps them feel more supported.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3okPKg9Fc8[/ame] here's a video on the bunny burrito, kind of similar concept. Good way to trim nails.


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## Nancy McClelland (Dec 10, 2013)

I'd say never stop--you have to train them to accept your handling--you are supposed to be the alpha. While most don't like it, they will come to accept it. We had more than 40 bunnies and some were "biters"--that's right, bloody chunks of my flesh hanging and profuse bleeding when they first came to us. I work with all of mine every day, still. Some really enjoy being held and rubbed while others tolerate me, but, I haven't been bitten by anyone or had to contend with struggling for quite some time now. Cosmo was a handful and Mr Hoppes was afraid and would bite--they'd both been thru several adoptions and returned because of their behavior and were close to being euthanized--now they are both very good bunnies to the point of being pesty and come when called and accept head rubs willing and tooth purr. You have to be consistent and persistent and read up on rabbit behavior. Just like when training a dog, you have to be cognizant of inherent canine behaviors and act accordingly. Why I tell everyone, you can't be upset with a bunny acting like a bunny and you have to treat them like another rabbit would.


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## woahlookitsme (Dec 10, 2013)

I also never say stop. One thing I would try different. Instead of putting your hand under her stomach to try and pick her up place your hand over her head or eyes first. Think of the belly as the most sensitive part on an animal. It is the most vulnerable area to a predator. By first placing your hand under her belly it is pushing her to run in fear. If you cover her eyes instead its more comforting to some (not all). Work slowly building up on things and when she slips in her progress go back to things she knows. I do this whenever I am working with any animal but learned it the most when working with horses. Start by covering her face and when she just sits still reward her with something either with a treat or simply just removing your hand away. Simple pressure and release works well with training. Pressure is putting your hand over her eyes and release is taking it away. Then move forward to holding your hand over her face and try scooping her up by her bottom with your other hand. Depending on how big she is picking her up might be difficult. With my tans I will stop them with one hand by covering their faces and then scoop them from under their belly. They are quite used to me picking them up this way so its not as hard. Try different ways. If you like using a towel you could have her stop on the towel by covering her face. Then wrapping her like a burrito and picking her up that way.


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## Sophie's Humble Servant (Dec 10, 2013)

Thank you for your replies. I would like to be able to pick up Sophie mainly in case of an emergency, and to at some point be able to trim her hoofs lol. I know that she's not the type of rabbit that's going to love being held or lugged around like a football but I feel like I need to be able to do this. I'm just worried about how much she can handle. 

As far as the burrito, I have mixed feelings about this. I think this technique may be ok for some bunnies but definitely not for my bunny. Reason being is that the VET couldn't even burrito her!! Either could the tech. She flailed and wormed and kicked like there was a Tasmanian devil in that towel. It was very frightening and scary and they even told me, "whoa she's really difficult!". And these guys are the savvy ones....so you can imagine how I might feel about trying to take on the task as an amateur when the savvies can't even do it. 

I have a nail trim appt for her next week so I'll be able to practice picking her up again. That's the annoying thing; she let's me pick her up and hold her at the vet but not at home. I think she's complying mainly because she's PETRIFIED!

Ugh it's all so discouraging. I feel like if I had to get her out of her cage quickly in an emergency that I wouldn't be able to do it...or that I would cause her to hurt herself. This causes me stress and worry

I will try covering her eyes and go at it again. Thank you for the suggestions.


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## Imbrium (Dec 10, 2013)

Sophie's Humble Servant said:


> I read many of you say that you need to be firm and confident when picking up your rabbit. This makes sense. It's also been stated that once you have decided to pick them up, you must follow through or they won't take you seriously. This also makes sense.
> 
> Now the dilemma...
> 
> ...



If anyone in the Katy/Houston area has an unruly bunn to volunteer, I'd be willing to make a video, lol. My girls have their outbursts where they kick or bite (well, nip sharply), but those are few and far between since I've been handling them regularly since they were 7-8 weeks old.

As for when to stop... I usually do what I'm gonna do and don't let the bunns thwart me, but sometimes I do let them off the hook if they're being extra difficult to catch and I'm being lazy. They know if I want them bad enough, I'll get them, so it's really not necessary to follow through *every* time. As the boss, I'll get what I want when I want it... but I see it as a matter of respect (and I think my bunnies do too) that if they DON'T want it badly enough, I'll change my mind about getting them. Whether or not I'll let them off the hook also depends on the tone I approached them with - if I addressed them in a "mommy means business" tone, then I'll always follow through but if I approached in a casual/friendly "let's have a snuggle" way, then I'll often let them have their way if they really don't want me bothering them.

With a rabbit that's not used to you, I'd say make the point that you CAN get them no matter how much they don't want you to, but at the same time, learn to read their stress level and know when you've pushed them far enough for the moment. Really, all it takes is to corner them/pin them down (figuratively, of course) in a location so that they have to admit that the chase is over, then pet them a couple times and walk off. They know **** well that you could've picked them up in that moment and simply chose not to, which is the point you really need to make. Going through the chase like you're going to pick them up but then simply petting them instead actually seems to help - it throws them off, making it harder for them to predict your intentions in the future (being able to knock them off their game is very advantageous if they like to play mind games like Nala does), it shows them that you're NOT constantly trying to pick them up against their will and letting them off the hook when they really don't want to be gotten is a show of good faith that helps build trust.

My rabbits (Nala, especially - Gaz is a lazy loaf) really love those chase scenes and often anticipate being "got". I usually have to unlock/open all floors of the condo for swift access before I go after Nala, then chase her from level to level until she corners herself and I nab her; Jay does the same. From time to time we catch her like a little football as she attempts to zoom out the bottom level .

As for flipping them over, you have to be *very* swift about it. They pretty much need to be on their back before they know what's happening. If you're doing it very swiftly and she's still freaking out, you may need to stop trying for a bit and continue earning her trust/conditioning her to accept being handled - it's possible you're rushing things a bit too much for her. Again, you only need to make it known that you *could* pick her up/flip her over - you don't actually HAVE to follow through to make your point.


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## Imbrium (Dec 10, 2013)

Sophie's Humble Servant said:


> As far as the burrito, I have mixed feelings about this. I think this technique may be ok for some bunnies but definitely not for my bunny.
> 
> That's the annoying thing; she let's me pick her up and hold her at the vet but not at home. I think she's complying mainly because she's PETRIFIED.



I've never really used the bunny burrito trick except post-spays when I had to force feed critical care (and even then, the towel was as much to prevent messes than anything). I think the effectiveness depends on the rabbit - with some, it can actually make things worse rather than better.

If she's letting you handle her at the vet, then maybe you could try working with her in a foreign area (that's safe, of course)... like if you've got a neighbor or friend who likes bunnies, you could take her (and an x-pen) over there for a play date.


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## Sophie's Humble Servant (Dec 10, 2013)

If I were to flip Sophie over, say on the couch or on the ground, if all I did was flip her then take my hands off, would it be dangerous for her to flip back on her own? If it's safe to do that then maybe I could just get her used to being flipped but then I'm not doing anything else to her until she gets used to that.

Basically what I want to know is when does the kicking get dangerous?

If I remember to, I'm going to take a video at the vet so I can watch it later on.


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## Imbrium (Dec 10, 2013)

I wouldn't recommend it, as she could hurt herself during the split second of flailing before she got upright (you never want to let a rabbit kick their hind legs freely into the air - I've heard that there's a chance it could result in a spinal injury). If she's going to kick, you want her feet to connect with your body and not go through their full range of motion without hitting something.

You could flip her over and then - in the SAME motion/without ever pausing to hold her on her back - immediately flip her upright again and set her down.


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## Sophie's Humble Servant (Dec 10, 2013)

Oh ok so it's the action of full ROM where they could get hurt. How about if I hog tie her? That seems pretty effective LOL...just joking of coarse! Boy oh boy I don't know if I'm stealthy enough to do this...I lack bunny confidence...:'(

And my hands are cold and clammy just thinking about doing all this!


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## Imbrium (Dec 10, 2013)

ROFL! Man, now you're tempting me to do naughty things back to my naughty little bunnies >.>

Remember what I said in the other thread - you need to be confident (or at least be able to fake it), as bunnies pick up on stress and anxiety. Why should she trust you if YOU don't even trust you?

I *strongly* recommend doing whatever you normally do to de-stress before working with her - do relaxation exercises, meditate, take a long bath/shower, watch some TV, whatever it is you do to gather yourself when you're overwhelmed! Focus your energy and keep telling yourself that you can do this - you're a huge human, she's a little bunny... you can overpower her without hurting her; you can hold her in a way that prevents her from hurting herself or you. If need be, couple this with slowing down the pace at which you're trying to make "progress" with her. *Until you can muster up an air of confidence, don't try to move forward with Sophie.* You have to get your mind where it needs to be so that hers can follow, otherwise you'll both be nervous wrecks and things will almost certainly go badly. Her energy WILL feed off of yours, positive or negative.


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## Sophie's Humble Servant (Dec 10, 2013)

I totally agree! My energy is cold, clammy and non collective lol! She probably thinks she's the boss! Well to be honest with a name like Sophie's Humble Servant, I've become my own self fulfilling prophecy!

It's a good thing I don't have a dog, I could never be a pack leader!


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## Imbrium (Dec 10, 2013)

Lol! My energy is very "I'm the alpha bunn" and Nala still sometimes gets it in her head that she can stage a coup.

Just do your best not to stress and to remember that these things take time so it's perfectly natural to not see immediate results! Work on you, then work on your relationship with her. Also, don't forget the craisins (or whatever treat she fiends for)!


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## Sophie's Humble Servant (Dec 10, 2013)

When I'm using the treats, do I give the treat first, then try or do I try, fail, give a treat OR do I only give a treat if I succeed?


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## Imbrium (Dec 10, 2013)

Well, if you've failed, then the bunny has escaped your clutches and scampered off, so obviously they've just run away from their chances of getting a treat .

The only "wrong" way to do it would be to throw a treat at a bunny who's hiding on the other side of the room after thwarting you, lol. Beyond that, it's personal preference and what works for you/your bunny (in other words, pick your own tactics through trial and error), though there are some moments when offering a treat tends to be more strategically advantageous.

~ You can try offering a treat as your opening bribe to see if you can circumvent the chase scene (this is most effective if the bunny's in their cage or a bit of a corner when you approach with the treat, and for obvious reasons it works a lot better on a food-motivated bunny than one like my Nala who cares more about trying to get that "win" against you).
~ Do not continue to try to offer the treat if you have to pursue her - she lost out on that treat when she decided to run; now it's a battle of wills (and strategy)!
~ Definitely offer a treat after you've picked the bunny up and/or corralled her in front of you for petting/handling - you won the chase scene, so the bunny gets a treat as a consolation prize. No, she wasn't obedient about it... but it's more important that she learns to associate being "gotten" with good things.
~ If the session ends with her escaping of her own volition, NO treat. If it ends with you choosing to release her, give a treat - her reward for waiting for you to dismiss her.

Oh, and don't forget to break/cut the treats up into appropriately small pieces depending on how many times in a day you plan to work with her!


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## Sophie's Humble Servant (Dec 10, 2013)

Ok that all makes sense, thanks for clarifying that


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## Imbrium (Dec 10, 2013)

No problem .

The key to treats lies mostly in remembering that rabbits can NOT be taught or trained through negative reinforcement - it just doesn't work - but they *can* learn through *positive* reinforcement. Denial of positive reinforcement is not the same thing as negative reinforcement - it's a matter of making sure you don't positively enforce negative behavior. What you're essentially teaching them with the treats is that it's worth tolerating things they don't like in order to get that nummy, nummy reward .


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## aozora (Dec 10, 2013)

Just wanted to chime in about the confidence bit because it's true! I think I've grown more confident about handling Mocha now - he used to hate getting picked up and would kick up a storm too, both picking up and she putting him down - but I have since grown firmer about it and apart from some occasional chasing around at first because he doesn't want to be picked up, he's been pretty good about it.

Tonight, however, I suggested to my sister that maybe she can try picking him up too, just to get her used to it in case she needs to look after him for me in the future. I showed her how to hold him on a stuffed animal and also slipped my hands under him as a demonstration - he crouched but no flinching or nipping. Then she tried to slip her hand under him, got nervous, drew her hand back and SNAP, he whipped his head around and bit her hand so hard she was actually bleeding with a bit of her skin torn clean off. He had never reacted that way before, but she was noticeably nervous all throughout and in general when interacting with him too. I think it's really true that they can sense fear and uncertainty.


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## Imbrium (Dec 10, 2013)

Ouch!! Poor sis! 

Unfortunately, many bunns are quick to take advantage if they sense weakness or vulnerability of some sort in the creature trying to pick them up - it's simple instinct for a fragile prey animal skilled in evasive maneuvers. That's wonderful if they're being whisked away by a predator who wants to make a meal out of them... not so much when some poor nervous human is trying to learn how to handle them for their own safety and well-being.

I see the same thing in my sugar gliders who aren't bonded to me yet - I get nervous sometimes because they're so quick to bite the sh*t out of you and I'm anticipating a bite (which usually results in bleeding - they're capable of biting as painfully as a bunny, if not moreso, and can potentially lock down into a bite like a freaking vice grip)... it's when I'm nervous that they're most likely to lunge at me for that bite. When you know something that fits in your hand (or lap, in the case of a bunny) is capable of inflicting serious pain on you and more than willing to do so, it can definitely be challenging to regulate your breathing, heart rate, etc. in order to appear calm and collected!


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## aozora (Dec 10, 2013)

I know! I feel bad for her, but at the same time I had to defend Mocha when she got mad at him for it because honestly, it's basic instinct for him to snap out at her like that. He normally doesn't like her that much - I think mostly because she hardly handles him - but it really didn't help that she was so nervous and darted her hand away like that after slipping it under his tummy. 

It's definitely going to make it tougher to convince her to keep trying to get used to handling him from now on, though! *sigh*


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## Imbrium (Dec 11, 2013)

Perhaps in a couple days (when the bite's healed up a bit and not so fresh in her memory) you can talk her into "one more try" before giving up, then convince her to use some relaxation techniques before her next attempt and maybe even guide her through them - if it makes a big difference, that may be all the encouragement she needs to continue working with him. It's very discouraging to consistently have bad experiences and feel like you're stuck in a hopeless downward spiral of one step forward/two steps back... making significant progress after a seemingly simple change in tactics is SO refreshing - suddenly you've got a reason to believe you'll continue to make progress.


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## aozora (Dec 11, 2013)

I think I'll try that! I'm also working on convincing her to just give him a treat and pet him on the head-- nothing drastic or anything, just gentle pets for him to get used to her touching him. He's still very cautious around her and refuses to take a treat out of her hand-- but he'll take it out of mine the next second with no problems, and he'll eat it if she sets it on the floor in front of him so it's not like he's shunning treats entirely!


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## Troller (Dec 11, 2013)

I've developed the confidence over time to pick up my rabbits, but my Conan has this sense you speak of that knows when Im about to do it. It never fails, he's okay with me hovering around me but the second the intent is formed he bolts for the litterbox or closest, deepest corner of his cage. My mistake was making the cage so deep in the first place but oh well.

Personally once I decide to pick up my rabbits I dont stop. If i know my buns are getting anxious by my attempts I may slow it down a bit, but they will get picked up eventually. I sometimes coax them, I sometimes just chase them down, but they always get a treat for the trouble.


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## Sophie's Humble Servant (Dec 11, 2013)

Ok that was stressful!!!!!

I approached Sophie with a treat. I covered her eyes. She took off like a gazelle. She hid in her cage. I was able to coax her out of her cage so I gave her a treat for that. I covered her eyes again, she took off again. I approached her again, covered her eyes with my hand. She stayed put. I removed my had after 5 seconds and gave her another treat. I repeated this 5 more times. The last time I covered her eyes I didn't give her a treat but I massaged her face and ears instead. I repeated this a few more times so she seemed ok with me covering her eyes. 

So I thought ok, I feel ok about this so maybe I will try to pick her up....spidey senses alert! She ran away. Ok no problem, I still felt fairly confident so I passively followed her around. She jumped on the couch and without hesitation I covered her face with a small blanket, bear hugged her, I could feel her struggling under me but I did not let her go. Good thing I used that blanket because I could feel her biting the heck out of it.

At this point I knew I had to follow through with flipping her over so I sort of held her head and body secure and while flipping her I also pulled her right against my body(I was kneeling beside the couch).

So she's on her back at this point, no kicking. She is very scared and her breathing is very fast, like how she is when at the vet. Her eyes are still covered but I moved the blanket away from her nose and mouth because I was afraid of suffocating her. 

I held her on her back, I'm hoping I didn't have her in that trance position. I kept her like that for about 20 seconds then very carefully turned her. She did struggle a bit to gain her footing at the end of the turn over.

She jumped off the couch. I quickly gave her two treats, praised her and let her nibble a bit of wheat grass. She went back into her condo to relax and she came back out about 5 minutes later and is acting normal.

I am however a basket case! I'm not sure how on earth I did this but I somehow pulled my muscle in my frontal rib!! Wtf man! Lol...my heart rate is just now returning to normal.

Did I do ok or did I push her too far? I feel bad at the moment worrying


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## Imbrium (Dec 11, 2013)

aozora said:


> He's still very cautious around her and refuses to take a treat out of her hand-- but he'll take it out of mine the next second with no problems, and he'll eat it if she sets it on the floor in front of him so it's not like he's shunning treats entirely!



If he won't even take a treat from her, then I suspect she may be rushing things by trying to pick him up. It would be good for her to spend time in his general vicinity without pushing him to interact, talking to him as she sits with him.



Troller said:


> It never fails, he's okay with me hovering around me but the second the intent is formed he bolts for the litterbox or closest, deepest corner of his cage.



Good to know we're not the only ones who feel like our bunnies can read our minds, lol. I don't know how the heck do they know the split second that "intent" pops into your head, but they truly do. It seems like being borderline mute makes them more tuned into telepathic abilities.

We've seen Nala send telepathic commands to Gaz before - Gaz is the give-away; if she's off in her own little world and gets startled by an abrupt command (usually related to one of us humans walking into the room), it's blatantly obvious . We've also seen Nala successfully send a command to our kitten that sends her running away. We've seen her try to send commands to our nearly 16 year old cat, Roo - he never obeys, but sometimes appears to send her a silent "screw you." We've even seen her attempt to command us at times. It sounds absolutely crazy if you've never experienced it, but that bunny's got some mental prowess! Nala is smart as a whip... Gazzles, bless her heart, is a little on the slow side. Gaz doesn't appear to know how to send thoughts, only receive them from Nala. Gaz is also hit-and-miss on reading our minds to see that "intent," while Nala catches even the tiniest whiff of it immediately every time.

~~~~~

@ Sophie's Humble Servent - Whew! Sounds like an ordeal!

It sounds like the focus on covering her eyes is probably making things worse (aside from preventing bites, which is always good). She sounds awfully agitated if she was biting the blanket that much, though. I've never used the covering the eyes tactic - I don't think it's necessary and it seems very uncondusive to building trust. It sounds like it might be a viable tactic in a pinch if you HAVE to handle a rabbit, but I don't see any benefit in using it during trust-building exercises.

Trancing is more than just position... but some rabbits are more stressed by being on their back than others. I often notice an increase in heart rate and breathing with Gazzles, while Nala is more comfortable with it.

Do NOT worry about things, as that will only make it worse... but I would recommend taking it more slowly next time.

Also, I don't remember if it's been mentioned at some point - how much does she weigh (approximate weight is fine)? The way you're describing things, she sounds like a pretty large bunny. You can lovingly strong-arm a huge creature the same way you can a little bunn (my tactics on our 16 lb cat are nearly identical to what I do with our bunns)... however, the process of learning how to confidently use those tactics is going to be much more difficult if you're learning on a big bunny because it's more challenging to keep their entire body fully supported as you're reigning them in. Also, for a large bunny, my advice of "just flip them over really quickly" is far less viable - that's a lot of weight to safely shift around, especially when they're struggling!

It may be a good idea to back-track a bit and stop trying to pick her up (or at the very least, to get her turned over) for a while and focus on trust-building instead.


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## Sophie's Humble Servant (Dec 11, 2013)

Sophie weighs 4.5 pounds so I think that means she's medium sized?

I guess I know I can secure her if I have to but yeah I'd prefer if biting wasn't the result.


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## aozora (Dec 11, 2013)

Imbrium said:


> If he won't even take a treat from her, then I suspect she may be rushing things by trying to pick him up. It would be good for her to spend time in his general vicinity without pushing him to interact, talking to him as she sits with him.



Oh for sure! I actually suggested the same thing to her-- sit on the rug, browse on her iPad and let him come to her. He didn't go up to her, but he did hop into his upside down willow twigloo nearby and I showed her how he likes to be petted. He still struck me as a little tense even though she was stroking all his favourite spots like I instructed though. 

I think she got impatient after seeing me plop him on my lap for some more petting (he's gotten a lot better about that and would actually stay on my lap for a few minutes before hopping off now! HUGE improvement for him even though that sounds like nothing!), and she told me to put him on her lap too..... Guess which naughty bunny jumped right off her lap immediately AND gave her a bunny feet flick of contempt??

I think we have a long way to go with these two...


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## Imbrium (Dec 11, 2013)

Sophie's Humble Servant said:


> Sophie weighs 4.5 pounds so I think that means she's medium sized?
> 
> I guess I know I can secure her if I have to but yeah I'd prefer if biting wasn't the result.



Oh, really? Man, I wish I had access to a struggling demonstration bunny! I don't know how much it'll help if I use an unhappy but fairly complaint bunny (though she's nipped me on the boob a time or two >.>), but I can try to make a video with Gazzles tomorrow - she's about the same size. She does attempt to struggle during nail trims if I don't thwart her, so I may be able to get some useful video.



aozora said:


> I think she got impatient after seeing me plop him on my lap for some more petting (he's gotten a lot better about that and would actually stay on my lap for a few minutes before hopping off now! HUGE improvement for him even though that sounds like nothing!), and she told me to put him on her lap too..... Guess which naughty bunny jumped right off her lap immediately AND gave her a bunny feet flick of contempt??
> 
> I think we have a long way to go with these two...



If you don't mind me asking, what's your sister's age (or general age range)? From all your posts, it sounds like age is coming into play here - knowing how old she is might help me get a better idea of the situation


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## Sophie's Humble Servant (Dec 11, 2013)

That'd be awesome if you could post a video

I know one thing, there is no way I'm going to have Sophie leave the ground or the couch until I'm satisfied I can keep her calm.


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## aozora (Dec 11, 2013)

She's actually older than me, almost 30! But our household has never had pets of any sort and Mocha is the first one ever, so everyone is pretty lost about how to care for him (you should have seen me the first few weeks or so, I was probably researching everyday for information on how to look after and act around Mocha!)

I am the one who looks after him pretty much; I graduated from uni recently but have been having troubles with job hunting so I have a lot of time to bond with Mocha and build trust. My sister on the other hand has a full time job so she only pops into my room in the late evenings/on days off and tries to play with him, but he usually ignores or runs away from her unless she has a treat on her. He'll take from her hand if he's hungry enough but more often than not just waits for her to set it down first. I don't think it helps that her favourite activity with him is using his favourite towel and waving it around like a matador would with a bull-- it gets him super riled up and he chases/lunges at the towel and grunts like crazy! It's pretty amusing to watch, but I think maybe now he has started associating her with that frustrating activity?


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## Imbrium (Dec 11, 2013)

LOL! I *so* had you pegged as the older sibling . At first, it sounded like you were both adults... but then after a while I couldn't tell if she was younger/an impatient teenager or if you guys were adults but your frustration with her impatience was causing it to stand out extra.

Instigating a bunny can be pretty darn amusing, but I agree, it's probably not helpful that it's her main form of interacting with him.


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## aozora (Dec 11, 2013)

I always tell her I'm the mature one, but she never believes me! *cough*

But yes, I can be pretty frustrated at her sometimes due to her impatience, lack of knowledge or both. She hasn't done any reading up about rabbits and most of the time what I tell her about Mocha goes in one ear and out the other, so she's not familiar with rabbit behaviour and doesn't realize how long it's taken me to even be able to pick him up without struggling or set him on my lap. He used to be so good at it that if there were kickboxing competitions for rabbits he could probably contend for the championship! Luckily he hardly tried to bite me during his struggles (he tries that mostly when I'm trying to groom him), but I do think my lack of confidence and fear of hurting him played a big part... it's hard not to when you see all those warnings about rabbits' fragile spines!

Oh, one thing that I did think of (and is actually relevant to this thread!!) just now for Beverly-- I think what really changed things with Mocha was when I learned to turn him towards me as I pick him up so that all four of his paws rested against my chest and stomach. Not only is he no longer able to kick because his hind feet are resting directly on my tummy with my hand under his bum to support him, I can either hug or stroke him with my free hand as well. I think that position feels a lot safer to him because while he might crane his neck and look down from side to side, he never struggles to jump out of my arms like his tail is on fire anymore. Does he still look and act scared? Well, yes... but I think he's just the sort of bunny who will never enjoy getting picked up even though he's learned to tolerate it. Anyway, I hope that might be of help to you, Beverly!


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## aozora (Dec 11, 2013)

One more thing to note-- I think Mocha tends to be pretty skittish compared to many of the other buns owned by members on this forum, but related to your topic question of what point do I stop picking him up (or set him down after I've picked him up):

Sometimes, I notice that when Mocha is very agitated, he would start breathing heavily enough for me to hear it even without bringing my ear close. That's sort of the first/lesser warning sign. But sometimes he would also do a tooth grinding that sounds very different from his tooth purring-- it almost sounds like grinding glass shards? I've read that bunnies do that when they're really scared, and that's the point when I either give up or I set him down if I already have him in my arms. I'm not sure if you've experienced that before - or if you ever will - but with my own bun that's basically when I back off and let him be. I don't think it's worth it to scare him to that point just to get him used to being picked up, not to mention I think it's the length of time you keep at it (ie. doing it on a consistent basis even if you're just picking him up for a minute or two) rather than how extreme you go that is more important.


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## Sophie's Humble Servant (Dec 11, 2013)

Do you lift him under the rump and chest then bring him towards your body?

Maybe you can post a video too!


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## aozora (Dec 11, 2013)

Yes I do! I usually have to corner him to do it because he runs around for a while-- in his case, I don't think he considers it a give-and-chase game because he doesn't like being picked up, but once I have him cornered he would crouch and try to flatten his tummy to the ground as much as he can and generally look really put out lol. I like to slip my right hand under his tummy first and sort of secure his two front feet between my fingers (thumb on the right side, index finger between his front feet, and the other three fingers on the left). If he does a huge jump out of my hand and hops away, I just let him go, follow him to his new crouching spot and repeat and rinse until he gives up and lets me put my other hand behind his bum. 

Then I tighten my grip with my right hand and push his bum up with my left so that his feet are a bit up in the air and turn him. He hates not having good footing - not sure if that's the same for your Sophie though - so the moment I start turning him, he literally scrambles to put all four paws on me because that's when he feels safest-- all four paws on something that isn't slippery! You need to get used to it because the first couple of times I was worried he might scratch me with his nails and I didn't really hold him that well so he squirmed free and jumped (luckily I was on my knees so it wasn't a big jump). It may hurt if you're wearing thin clothing and she has long nails, just keep that in mind. 

Once I have him plastered to my front, I just support his bum with my left hand and stand up. But just in case she does try to kick you, don't let your left hand go slack - though it shouldn't anyway since it's supporting his weight. By that point he's too scared/nervous to even consider biting, not to mention he's practically standing straight up on his bum in a sense (like 90 degrees to the ground?) so it's almost like biting is the last thing on his mind. Nowadays when I set him down I sort of let him slide off my front so he eases down to the ground between my legs bum-first rather than feet first, which is great because 1) he can't kick and 2) he always has to put his front paws on me to get his bearings first before hopping away, so even if he tries to nip by that time I've got my hands free and away from biting distance!

I'll try to do a video, maybe I can get my sister to film it for me? I'll ask her!


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## Sophie's Humble Servant (Dec 11, 2013)

What if I get bit? If by chance I'm actually able to not let her go out of instinct when she bites me, should I keep ahold of her? At this point she's really hating me if I'm getting bit but if I let her go I guess I would be teaching her that biting means you get let go?


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## Rainbow_Foxes (Dec 12, 2013)

Females usually hate their bellies touched, babies are the only ones allowed. Grab around her shoulders with one hand and scoop up her butt with the other instead. Some are calm enough to allow one hand under their necks supporting their chests and the other hand on their butts. Or even lift like a person, hands on their sides. 
Some rabbits will suddenly start hating being lifted if bad things happen afterwards. Like nail trimming or too much fussing over them.


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## lovelops (Dec 12, 2013)

Imbrium said:


> Well, if you've failed, then the bunny has escaped your clutches and scampered off, so obviously they've just run away from their chances of getting a treat .
> 
> Jennifer
> 
> ...


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## Sophie's Humble Servant (Dec 12, 2013)

So I flipped Sophie on her back again last night and it went a lot better. She only bit the blanket once and she definitely didn't put up as much of a fight. I held her on her back for 20 seconds and I rubbed her face while I held her. Her breathing was still fast but not as bad as the first time. I turned her back over, no kicking this time and let her go. Gave her a couple of treats and this time she didn't run back into her condo. I know some of the advice was to take the process slowly but I'm going with my instincts on this one and handling it with a more tenacious approach. I feel that with my personality, if I "poo-poo" this too much, I will allow myself to second guess what I'm doing so I need to just git 'er done so to speak. 

I really thank you all for the advice, I learned many new things! I will keep you all updated on my progress with Sophie


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## Nancy McClelland (Dec 12, 2013)

:thumbup


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## Imbrium (Dec 12, 2013)

I haven't gotten fully caught up on this thread yet, but will do so later tonight... I'll start by responding to lovelops, as she sent me a PM as well and I figured I would answer her here in case others had similar issues.



lovelops said:


> Jennifer
> 
> I wanted to add to this since I saw the pics of your Broken Holland Lop in your avatar who looks almost exactly like the one I just rescued who was about to be put down. Maybe this is the wrong place to post this but it ties into picking up also so here we go..



How long ago were they spayed? It can take up to a month for females' hormones to be totally gone. Also, unfortunately, some hormone-driven behaviors and aggression can become "learned" and remain even after the hormones are gone.

Even when hormones aren't to blame, some rabbits are big on using nips/bites to communicate. My Holland nipped me on the leg last night because she was tired of being in my lap but afraid to jump down (I was in my desk chair) herself. My lionhead once decided I'd been furminating her too long and when I set her down for a break, she circled around and nipped me right on the bootie!

For litter box digging, the only sure way to stop it is to put a grate of some sort over the box that prevents digging completely. http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=53690&forum_id=93 has instructions about 1/3 of the way down the first page for building a grid - it's easy to do.

~~~~~

Nipping/biting:

As a general rule, I always tell people that you can NOT teach a rabbit through negative reinforcement or any sort of punishment - it just doesn't work. *Biting is the exception to this rule.*

Biting and nipping are _communication techniques_ for bunnies. They don't bite or nip for no reason - they do it to tell you something. Some bunnies need to be taught when it's "socially inappropriate" (by bunny standards) to nip or bite someone. Human parents have tactics for disciplining a child prone to throwing tantrums... similarly, a mother rabbit will discipline her kits when she finds their behavior inappropriate.

Mother rabbits discipline their kits by pressing the kit's head to the ground and holding it there for a few seconds. Because this is a natural communication method for rabbits, they actually understand what you're trying to say if you do it to them.

You need to be firm yet gentle. Think of the amount of force a doe would apply by pressing down on a baby bunny's head with her chin - it's not much, and it's all that's needed.

I'll make a video for you guys tonight and include a demonstration of how to discipline a rabbit for biting


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## JBun (Dec 12, 2013)

It sounds like you are already making progress with Sophie. She may be realizing you aren't a big scary monster trying to eat her, and there's even a nice treat that she gets when you are done. Keep up the good work and you'll be a pro at this in no time


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## Sophie's Humble Servant (Dec 13, 2013)

Thank you for the encouragement

One thing I was wondering was how often should I be practicing? I flipped her two days in a row but I thought I'd give her a break(and me lol) this evening.

I don't want her to forget what I'm doing but I also don't want to put her under too much stress.


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## namimommy (Dec 13, 2013)

I gave up. She'll kicking like hell when i try to hold her and shedding her fur like i can make a winter cloth with it. Once she's kicking and bleed herself at her mouth. I can do nothing nor i can clip her nails because i cannot hold her. I'm a sad mommy.


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## Imbrium (Dec 13, 2013)

aozora said:


> I think what really changed things with Mocha was when I learned to turn him towards me as I pick him up so that all four of his paws rested against my chest and stomach. Not only is he no longer able to kick because his hind feet are resting directly on my tummy with my hand under his bum to support him, I can either hug or stroke him with my free hand as well. I think that position feels a lot safer to him because while he might crane his neck and look down from side to side, he never struggles to jump out of my arms like his tail is on fire anymore. Does he still look and act scared? Well, yes... but I think he's just the sort of bunny who will never enjoy getting picked up even though he's learned to tolerate it.



Something I'd forgotten to mention but that occurred to me when I started filming the video (which I'm working on uploading right now) is that what works for picking up one bunny doesn't always work for another - some rabbits are pretty easy going about being picked up (mine, for example) while others tend to respond a good bit better to one particular technique. In other words, if you feel like you aren't making progress with one method, try another! I tried to show a couple options in the video, though I forgot about that one. I don't tend to do it myself, but my boyfriend routinely holds Nala the way you're describing and she always seems happy about it.



aozora said:


> Sometimes, I notice that when Mocha is very agitated, he would start breathing heavily enough for me to hear it even without bringing my ear close. That's sort of the first/lesser warning sign. But sometimes he would also do a tooth grinding that sounds very different from his tooth purring-- it almost sounds like grinding glass shards? I've read that bunnies do that when they're really scared, and that's the point when I either give up or I set him down if I already have him in my arms. I'm not sure if you've experienced that before - or if you ever will - but with my own bun that's basically when I back off and let him be. I don't think it's worth it to scare him to that point just to get him used to being picked up, not to mention I think it's the length of time you keep at it (ie. doing it on a consistent basis even if you're just picking him up for a minute or two) rather than how extreme you go that is more important.



^ Agreed - you know your own bunny better than the rest of us do (and the same goes for everyone in this thread)... so trust your instincts and listen to your bunny's breathing/watch their body language and let the bunny tell you when "enough is enough."



Sophie's Humble Servant said:


> What if I get bit? If by chance I'm actually able to not let her go out of instinct when she bites me, should I keep ahold of her? At this point she's really hating me if I'm getting bit but if I let her go I guess I would be teaching her that biting means you get let go?



I addressed this a little bit in my hastily-written post earlier and I touch on it again in the video... furthermore, you'll get to actually watch NON-DEMONSTRATION footage of my instinctive response to being bitten, as that naughty little Gazzles snuck in a pretty hard nip after her nail trim while the camera was still rolling! No rabbits were harmed in the filming of the video, but a human got a little bit abused 



Sophie's Humble Servant said:


> I know some of the advice was to take the process slowly but I'm going with my instincts on this one and handling it with a more tenacious approach. I feel that with my personality, if I "poo-poo" this too much, I will allow myself to second guess what I'm doing so I need to just git 'er done so to speak.



In all honesty, advice on this issue should only be considered a guideline anyway . Every rabbit is different, as is every owner - it's reasonably easy for us bystanders to spot when the pace you're going at doesn't seem to be working, yet pretty much impossible to tell you what the *right* pace is. That's something that you and your bunny need to work out for yourselves through trial and error!

This is directed at all newer bunny owners, not just you:
_The leading authority on your own particular bunny (or bunnies) is *you*._

I realize this can be difficult to believe at times if you feel like you're in over your head... but you know your own bunny/bunnies better than any of us ever could. We're simply here to offer you our insights and help you learn to interpret your bunny's attempts to communicate based on contextual clues and what we've seen in our own bunns.

Chances are, all of you know your bunnies far better than you realize - the true obstacle is in becoming confident enough to trust your gut instincts!

_If "experienced bunny owners" on the forums tell you one thing and your "mommy/daddy" instincts tell you otherwise, 9 times out of 10 it's going to be your instincts that have it right!_


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## Sophie's Humble Servant (Dec 13, 2013)

Thanks! Did you upload a video and I'm just not seeing it? Or I'm getting ahead of myself here lol


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## Imbrium (Dec 13, 2013)

Yeah, the upload is being more than a little painful. I suppose I do think I remember seeing that the file size was 1 gig  Just looked and it's nearly 17 minutes; I really wish I knew how to fully edit videos! I've still gotta go back through and watch it myself, so when I do, I'll make notes of where in the time-line I talk about or demonstrate certain things - that way I can give you guys a cheat sheet in case you want to skip around. I didn't plan what I wanted to say ahead of time because I'm more comfortable when I'm not trying to follow a script (and more importantly, because rabbits think scripts are for eating), so it's a bit stream-of-consciousness. There's also a good bit of naughtiness... Nala made an escape at one point and went around to the side of the bed, so I had to give chase and nab her like a little football, lol. Sadly, I suspect the actual nab happened off-camera.


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## Sophie's Humble Servant (Dec 13, 2013)

Heh heh I can't wait to see it! Thanks in advance for doing this, I really appreciate your time!


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## Imbrium (Dec 13, 2013)

Man, I was about ready to throw something through the monitor (well, not really ) when I saw "Your video exceeds the maximum video length for unverified accounts."... what a relief to read the next part about "To fix this, just verify your account, then activate this video in your Video Manager&#8212;you don't have to upload the video again." I would've been cranky as hell if I'd had to upload that all again (especially since it really slowed down my comp... and I can't leave the computer going overnight or it'll overheat and blue screen of death me the next day (it's an old gaming laptop; the nVidia card was top-of-the-line when I got it and it puts out an absurd amount of heat even with a laptop cooler despite really only being used for internet these days).

Anyway, I'm gonna see if I can review the video without disturbing Jay's nap (the laptop's actually set up as a desktop and has temperament issues that prevent me from making it mobile... also, the headphone/speaker jack is shot) - he's trying to sleep off a sinus headache .

On a side note, he's gonna get me a decent program that can edit videos at some point soon (if I don't forget to remind him, lol)


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## Imbrium (Dec 13, 2013)

So... *facepalm*... I forgot/didn't realize as I was doing the video that the camera didn't show my upper body when I was standing, which makes it hard for anyone to see WTF is going on when I hold a rabbit "like so" ><

I had it positioned to cover the floor area because it couldn't get everything and for picking up purposes, what happens in those first 2-3 feet of raising them off the floor is the most important. This is what happens when you ghetto-rig a makeshift tripod to film in a small room so that you don't have to subject your boyfriend to 17 minutes of bunny-related ramblings (well, that, and once he started to get bored, he would probably have been even naughtier than the bunnies can be).

As a disclaimer, some parts of the video may be pretty disturbing or even sickening for those of you who struggle with an obstinate bunny. Hell, even *I'm* sickened by some of Nala's behavior! There were times in the early part of the video where she was like an obedient little marionette - you would SWEAR she's going out of her way to win an award for "most obedient demo bunny ever" (not even remotely close to what would've been helpful for you guys). I got her from a breeder at 7 weeks old (albeit with a lot of warnings about being extra careful with her because she was a bit young to be going to a new home) and the breeder obviously handled her kits a great deal from the start, as they were very accustomed to it by 7-8 weeks old. I've always held and handled my rabbits quite a bit and Nala in particular is very forgiving about it as long as she isn't chomping at the bit to run off and be naughty.

Anyway, back to reviewing the video so that I can get it posted!


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## Imbrium (Dec 13, 2013)

First 30 seconds or so, I'm introducing the naughties.
At 30 seconds in, I start showing ways to pick up Nala.
2:18 - I've moved on to picking up Gaz and Nala makes a break for it!
3:05 - I go back to Nala for nail trims; you'll see me picking her up without supporting her hind legs at all. Not recommended for obvious reasons with many bunnies, but a few rare exceptions (like Nala) really don't mind. I wasn't thinking and just picked her up out of habit 
3:40 - flipping Nala over
4:00 - Nala's nail trim; I also discuss how to deal with fur getting in the way and what to do with dark nails that you can't see the quick through.
At some point, I switch to Gazzle's nails (I forgot to note)
11 minutes in - how to deal with overgrown nails
12:55 - rabbit "discipline" (the trick of pressing their head down... Gazzles is ridiculously uncooperative about this when she knows **** well she hasn't been naughty)
16:10 - Gazzles bites me, gets disciplined for real and is much more accepting of it

I know it's a lot to watch - it's like 3-4 "how to" videos rolled into one, plus I tend to ramble and the rabbits like to create diversions from time to time ><

Hopefully it's at least a little helpful despite the overall lack of struggling. You do see them struggle a little bit during nail trims, and the only reason they don't struggle a LOT more is because I'm firm with them and confident in what I'm doing - when they start to get feisty, I put a stop to it immediately.

Despite a reputation for being "frail," you can hold a bunny quite firmly without hurting them at all as long as you've got them properly supported - the odds of them hurting themselves from not being controlled are actually much higher than the odds of you hurting them with a firm but supportive hold. You can minimize their movements without being forceful. In the video, you'll see that I definitely don't handle my bunnies like they're fragile! I would never, ever do anything that might hurt them, but a certain amount of firmness is just plain necessary to convince them to behave - if you're terrified of hurting them, the little naughties will absolutely take advantage!

Doesn't look from the preview like the video is embedding, though I've tried it multiple ways... crossing my fingers!

*grumble*... ok, time to argue with it a bit more...


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## Imbrium (Dec 13, 2013)

Ok, apparently YouTube arbitrarily changed the video to "private" even though I specifically said I wanted it to be "unlisted" and that was causing it not to embed. Problem solved!

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1qGcjM7syk[/ame]


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## Sophie's Humble Servant (Dec 13, 2013)

Thank you so much! The video was great, especially how you flip them over! Lol I had to chuckle a bit when you're holding them and their front feets are sticking straight up in the air, pretty cute

Man alive I would love to be able to pick up Sophie from the ground like that! 

I'm going to try your flip technique, hopefully soon! I see what you mean by it all happening in one motion and they wouldn't even have time to react.


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## aozora (Dec 13, 2013)

Currently uploading mine! It's very very short, only about 2 minutes long (shorter still if you take away the time it took to chase him down and other little mishaps because Mocha does not like the camera and would not behave!)

I didn't demonstrate how I flip him on his back because that's one thing I'm still slowly working on-- he doesn't kick anymore when I pick him up, but oh boy flipping him on his back is another story! I'll make another post once it's uploaded 

EDIT: BTW Jennifer, watched your video and I had to laugh at the way you manhandled Nala! That's pretty much how I handle Mocha too XD


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## aozora (Dec 13, 2013)

Okay, I hope this works! Here is a quick video of how I tend to pick up Mocha for transport and so forth:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qk1i_863WiA[/ame]

Please excuse the lame set-up and my very wet hair (just took a shower!) and generally unhelpful explanation especially compared to Jennifer's! :baghead


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## Imbrium (Dec 13, 2013)

Yeah, much easier to show than explain!... especially since I was trying to mentally picture it while explaining, rather than actually doing it (I noticed when doing the videos that I hadn't communicated the bit about one hand being on their chest and the other on their rump in my posts).

It's certainly not a miracle-fix, as Sophie will almost certainly try to throw a fit after the fact, but it can still help for a couple reasons:
1) While they tend to hate both, it seems like bunnies hate the process of being turned over even more than they hate being on their backs - the less time it takes you to flip them, the less time they have to get pissed off about it 
2) The element of surprise = advantage, human! By ninja-flipping the bunny before they know what's going on, you throw them off their game which in turn, delays the fit they're going to throw when they realize what you've done. As a result, you get a split second to get them settled/positioned and brace yourself for that tantrum!

aozora, I'll have to watch your video with the sound on later, as I'm still trying not to wake Jay up (though the gliders behind me don't seem to have the same goal in mind ><)... I absolutely LOVED waching Mocha melt into a puddle of bunn while you pet him, though! Naturally, he thanked you with a good ol' chase scene, heh. Looked like a mini version of what Nala tends to put me through! I chose our bedroom mostly for lighting and camera distance reasons, but I also really appreciated having a mini-pen set up for Nala and the fact that she didn't have many options as far as where to go when she escaped. My video was long enough as it was - no one needed an extra 30 minutes of watching me make an *ss of myself trying to catch an elusive little lionhead, hehe.

Ok, just hit the 1:17ish mark and laughed by butt off as he abruptly flipped out of your arms and made his escape - SO NAUGHTY!!... and SO something my own bunns will do if they get the chance. They like to pretend they're on the same page as you, quiet and obedient, then explode with energy!

In retrospect, I'm really glad I watched with the sound off, it made it hilarious trying to picture your responses to that naughty, naughty behavior. I can't wait to watch with the sound on tomorrow and laugh all over again. It's much more amusing when it's not you being thwarted by the bunny - a fact I picked up on right away when Jay and Nala met and I got to watch her give him hell instead of doing it to me .

Does Mocha ever dig at you when you hold him like that? Nala *loves* to dig at Jay when he holds her that way... and sometimes if you instigate it by telling her how much you love that digging, how cute it is, how you wish she'd do it again, she'll start to dig extra.


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## aozora (Dec 13, 2013)

Hahaha I tried to refrain from calling him the things I usually call him (mostly along the lines of "ooooh you brat!" in English and also Chinese) so I was actually behaving more than he was when you think about it!  I wonder if it's a fellow lionhead thing, being naughty like that-- he's part definitely part lionhead because he grows quite an unruly mane that I trim because it tangles easily once it grows to a certain point from scratching/grooming, so it doesn't look very apparent in the video.

The first time he jumped out of my arms, it was more "augh of course the one time I'm filming this you decide to jump away instead of turn like you usually do!!", but the second time I think you can tell from my body language that I had pretty much given up by that point lol. 

When you watch it with the sound, make note of the sounds from around 1:01ish--- that's him pointedly digging his little nails into the rug as I dragged him back to me because he did NOT want to be picked up! He totally is a naughty little bun and to be honest I kind of maybe sometimes pick him up in my arms on purpose just to "punish" him a little... *cough*

You know, he doesn't dig at me when I'm standing with him in my arms, but if I'm sitting he actually has done it a few times. He also sometimes tries to chew at my clothes so I have to keep pushing his head down and dissuade him, but usually he's more interested in peering all about and trying to find the perfect escape route!


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## Imbrium (Dec 13, 2013)

Hehe, my hunch was right both times. The first time, it wasn't actually your body language that gave it away, but HIS. Something about the way he engineered that escape was so calculated and devious! Given that you were talking for the camera and presumably explaining what you were doing, I don't think it's a stretch at all to suspect the he knew something was up. You weren't talking to him, so presumably you would've been talking to other humans ABOUT him which = audience. Audience = time for naughtiness. It's honestly not much of a stretch to think that he really WAS doing it just because it was the one time you were filming - some bunnies really do seem to be *that* smart!



aozora said:


> He totally is a naughty little bun and to be honest I kind of maybe sometimes pick him up in my arms on purpose just to "punish" him a little... *cough*



That absolutely never, EVER happens in our home under ANY circumstances... except for the 2-6 times a day pretty much every day when it happens with Nala. We outright *taunt* her about it. If she becomes too much effort and we give up on her for the moment, we leave her with a final warning of "you're gonna get "got" *extra* hard for this later!" We tease, threaten, call her names, tell her how naughty she is, you name it. She gives us the run-around. Sooner or later, she gets "got" (often, she's caught mid-air like a little football as she zooms past one of us). After being "got", she gets punished for her shenanigans with ear, cheek, nose, forehead and full-body rubs as she bunny-purrs her little heart out. At least once a day, we flip her over so we can get that cute little tum that she never wants to share . The whole thing is one big game - she seems to love the attention of being caught just as much as she loves running from us, which is why we're always doing it.


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## aozora (Dec 13, 2013)

I wouldn't put it pass him to do it on purpose, especially given the things I was saying both times it happened! First time was when I was about to say he naturally turns to face me and put his front paws on me... and of course he chose that exact moment to make his leap. Second time I think I was saying something about how he usually stays still when I'm holding him like that, so of course to make his point he did the exact opposite thing again, and thus I gave up lol!

Aww I wish Mocha enjoys being caught too instead of looking put out like I just grounded him or something! But I think maybe he does enjoy the actual chase portion after all-- usually he hops all around to various corners and then seems to "give up"-- you know, turns to face me and crouches and puts his head down while trying to look as pitiful as possible. Then when I put my hands around him, he just hops right up and off he goes again! Grrrrr!

Does Nala do much by way of jumping? With so much energy I'd imagine she'd be hopping up on things she shouldn't be hopping on too!


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## Sophie's Humble Servant (Dec 14, 2013)

Thanks for the video Amy, I appreciate you posting it. I flipped Sophie on her back again tonight, though definitely not as swiftly as you guys. I'm really worried that she's going to bite me so I have a blanket that I use to cover her upper body. Unfortunately, the blanket also gets in the way of my turning her. Since I'm not confident enough to let her body leave the couch while flipping, I've been rolling her over onto her back rather than flipping. I wanted to see and feel her body movements but not get bit...my technique is sloppy at the moment but at least I am getting her onto her back. I actually stood up with her in my arms. She's still breathing quite fast but I'm hoping she'll get better as we practice more. I need to ditch the blanket maybe and get myself a pair of gauntlets to wear on my arms lol. It is true that once they're on their backs they don't move and struggle as much. It's really getting them to that point that's the hard part. Well, for me anyway


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## kmaben (Dec 14, 2013)

So been checking in on this thread and I'm a little confused as to why Sophie has to be flipped on her back. I understand people who show rabbits but just as a house pet? I worked with Sarah ( a rabbit shower/breeder) on how to flip Shya and Kai and man was it ridiculous to figure it out on a 17 pound giant. When I want to trim nails, groom him, or look him over he gets picked up and put on the washing machine. That's my groom table for all three of them. Nightly they have a routine where they get checked over, groomed, and nails trimmed as needed. Maybe they're just pretty exceptional about standing still for a nail trim. Maybe we do it so often they're all just use to it. I dont know. Kai my 17 pounder hates to be picked up due to his giant size and I have gotten bitten by giant teeth for it. Multiple times. He finally resigned to the fact it happens every night and that on occasion he has to be picked up to be moved somewhere. He's also resigned to the fact that even biting mom does not get you put down. He will take his frustrations out on a towel now instead of my biceps. (People were begining to think my husband was abusing me due to the large bruises Kai would leave!) But I finally got smart and started wearing my winter jacket when I knew I'd be working with him.
If I have to check bellies for matting or grooming issues I set him on my lap put his back to my chest, tuck my arm under his forelegs and hold him up to groom or clean as needed. His butt is in my lap and he's "sitting" on his butt not standing on his back legs. This he tolerates but not getting flipped on his back. I'm sure if I really wanted to work with him I could flip him on his back but I figured why stress him when I've found an alternative that works? Shya and Franklin will let me put them on their backs but they dont particularlly seem to enjoy it so it I dont. (actually it's kind of hard to tell with Franklin since he turns into playdough when you pick him up)

Sorry for the horrible spelling. I'm on a governement computer and they dont like spell check.


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## Sophie's Humble Servant (Dec 14, 2013)

I want to be able to securely handle her, be able to pick her up, get her out of her cage in an emergency without having her hurt herself because I don't know what I'm doing, nail trims, body inspections. I hate that I have to take her to a vet to trim her nails. I'm of the mind that if you have a pet, you should be able to groom them and do the basic things for them. I've been cutting cats nails most if my life and able to inspect every animal I've ever had. Sophie is proving to be a challenge with this but I am determined. I need to get her used to these movements and I need to learn how she's going to react. If I knew for certain that I would never have to trim her nails or that there would never be an emergency then no, I wouldn't even be doing this at all but since nothing is certain I feel I would be remiss to not prepare.

If Sophie was the type of rabbit who just "sat" there while I inspected her that would be great! But she's not. She won't sit on my lap....I can't just pick her up, she freaks out...I have to immobilise her...well until she gets used to being handled lol


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## Imbrium (Dec 14, 2013)

Sophie's Humble Servant said:


> I flipped Sophie on her back again tonight, though definitely not as swiftly as you guys. I'm really worried that she's going to bite me so I have a blanket that I use to cover her upper body. Unfortunately, the blanket also gets in the way of my turning her.



I don't suppose you own a thick sweater, sweatshirt or jacket that you could wear? It seems like that might get in the way a lot less .


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## Sophie's Humble Servant (Dec 14, 2013)

I was looking through my sweaters thinking, ok, which one of these would I be ok if Sophie turned it into Swiss cheese lol...yes, I think at some point I've got to forgo the blanket. I'm just a bit worried about doing that because of the way I'm turning her at the moment...the blanket was helping to contain her a bit until I could turn her over. Argh I know I shouldn't get used to using it because then it'll be hard to stop. At the moment before I'm turning her, I'm wrapping myself around her to prevent her from getting away, snugging her up to my body then very awkwardly rolling her over. I have a bad feeling that this won't go so well if she can see and I don't have that blanket partially encasing her. This wouldn't be an issue if I felt comfortable enough actually lifting her off the ground...The getting off the ground thing is THE THING that haunts me lol....I'm scared to do it! At some point in the future when I'm a pro at this, I will look back and wonder what all the fuss and nervousness was about. But for now.....the plot thickens!!!!!!


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## Sophie's Humble Servant (Dec 14, 2013)

Another huge motivating factor in needing to properly handle her is because I am moving out of province in the spring. I will be taking Sophie on an airplane and in order to go through the security checks, I HAVE to remove her from her carrier and be able to hold her and walk through the security checkpoint. I've already called the airport security to tell them about my fears of having to remove a potentially uncooperative animal from a carrier and how they can get injured. Chances are I will be able to go into a private room with Sophie for the inspection which would be great but I still have to be able to safely remove her and put her back in. No vet tech there to help me out, it'll be my problem:S


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## kmaben (Dec 14, 2013)

I was wandering if maybe "stages" would help. If you're terrified to get her off the ground why not work first with simply picking her up. Once she's used to getting picked up and nothing "bad" happens then work on flipping her on her back?


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## lovelops (Dec 14, 2013)

Thanks for the video. I thought it was great... Mocha is such a cutie! I'm going to have to post more pics of Brooke and Lady. Brooke is so heavy, close to 10 pounds now it's hard at times to get a handle on her!


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## Imbrium (Dec 14, 2013)

Are you comfortable sitting on the floor and pulling her into your lap yet? That's where I would start. No picking her up required and if she breaks away, no risk of injury. Once you've got that down, try the tactic I showed in the video of one hand on her chest and one on her rump, but DON'T go straight to trying to flip her over - just get her used to having your hands there.

Basically, pull her into your lap and put your hands on her like you're going to flip her... then, if she hasn't engineered an escape, offer a treat and then let her go about her way. Once you can do that without either of you freaking out, then try flipping her. Again, be sitting on the _floor_ when you do this - that way if she twists around in your arms and makes a break for it, the worst thing that can happen is that you have to chase her down.

It's *completely okay* if she gets away from you - if she kicks/struggles and attempts to break away from you, sometimes the safest thing to do is to not fight her, since her back feet will _inevitably_ connect with your body (be it arms, legs or torso) as she flips herself back over and you don't actually have to do anything to prevent her from kicking full-force into open air and injuring herself. If she escapes, simply re-exert control/authority by catching her again - this shows her that getting away doesn't mean she's off the hook.

If you have a cell phone or digital camera with video capabilities, feel free to film some of your attempts to work with her and post them here, as that may be more helpful to those offering advice than just describing things - we may be able to gain insights from something about either her body language or yours that can help you learn to handle her. Consider this thread a judgment-free zone - don't worry about Sophie making a fool of you, as I _guarantee_ there's not a rabbit owner around who hasn't been made a fool of by their bunny (as is evidenced by some of the things that happened in the videos aozora and I made)! The fact that they're so clever and capable that they can get the better of us sometimes is a big part of what makes them so endearing as pets .

Oh, and kmaben, I'm going to have to meet these ginormous bunnies of yours when you're back in Texas! I've worked with a 17 lb motherf*cker of a cat, but never a bunny that big - I'd love to have you teach me how to safely handle the largest rabbit breeds.


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## Sophie's Humble Servant (Dec 14, 2013)

I have tried several times to grab her from the ground, I cannot for the life of me get a grip on her. She's more slippery than a greased pig on fair day lol.

When I was trying to slow approach with her I spent a lot of time on the ground, coaxing her with treats to get up on my lap. It seems that the most she will do is sit on my lap long enough to grab the treat then jump off or if she's decided she doesn't want to be there because I'm not giving her the treat she's gone! 

I am willing to try different techniques, I'm open minded. Hey, I'd shake magic rocks at her if I thought it would help lol. I will try again to pull her onto my lap....it's very difficult to just simply grab her like I said so grabbing and pulling her onto me seems like a monumental task...I won't give up, I'll find someway to do this!


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## aozora (Dec 14, 2013)

Hmmm just some other random suggestions off the top of my head-- but of course, what works with me might not work with you so it's all a matter of trial-and-error!

- Have you tried cornering her to a spot where she can't escape? Make sure to wear something long sleeved and preferably thick when you're doing this. What I do when I get Mocha into a corner is push one side of his flank (like say, the right or left hind leg) real quick to turn him around so he has a ways to spin in order to try and nip me if that's what he has in mind, and scoop him up quickly that way. I always try to get him facing away from me because even though he doesn't nip much anymore, he still does on occasion and it's always better to be safe than sorry!

- Does Sophie do well with traction-less flooring like hardwood/smooth tiles/etc.? Mocha absolutely hates hardwood so back when he wasn't as keen to let me pick him up, I would herd him over to a patch of hardwood in my room (it's all hardwood, but I've got a couple of big rugs laid down for him to have some traction) where he's unsure of himself and too distracted by the OMGSLIPPERY floor to struggle when I pick him up. He does scramble somewhat into my arms which might startle you when you try, but it's never intended to hurt *you*, the bun is just really relieved to have something to cling to lol. Try to do this far away from a carpeted area so that she can't just make a mad dash for the safety zone.

Honest to god, though, I find the "slow and easy approach" never works with Mocha. The whole petting them for a while so they relax and won't struggle when you pick them up advice? Yeah, you can imagine my dismay when Mocha goes from 0 to 100 in a split second and zooms off the moment I try to slip one handunder him, every. single. TIME. So with him I've noticed that the element of surprise works a lot better. Scooping him up before he has the chance to struggle gave me a much better success rate! Does he jump out of my arms a lot? Of course! But that's when persistence pays off because after a few more tries of give-and-chase, it's almost like he goes "Okay, I give up, you win" and finally lets me hold him.


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## Sophie's Humble Servant (Dec 14, 2013)

I have tried cornering her, that was what I tried in the beginning to no avail. Though she doesn't like being on the hardwood she will use it to escape if she has to. Oh the best one was I blocked her into the kitchen. I thought, YES!, I've got you cornered now!! As I made contact to grab her, she jumped right over my shoulder, ha ha! What a beastie!!


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## aozora (Dec 14, 2013)

Lol! Oh wow, she sure sounds feisty! How about restricting her to a small space, like maybe the bathroom with the door closed behind you or someplace similar where she's only got limited space to run and no place to hide? Mocha's a lot more likely to give up if he knows resistance is futile.

EDIT: And maybe you can try turning her around to face away from you this time when cornering her? Like I said, not only will she be surprised, she also can't see where she can escape (since she's facing the corner) so you can use that to your advantage.


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## Sophie's Humble Servant (Dec 14, 2013)

I think I will maybe just try turning her a few times and see if I can get her used to that...I'm sure I'll find something that she's more receptive to...if all else fails, there's always hog tying lol...jj


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## Imbrium (Dec 14, 2013)

aozora said:


> Lol! Oh wow, she sure sounds feisty! How about restricting her to a small space, like maybe the bathroom with the door closed behind you or someplace similar where she's only got limited space to run and no place to hide? Mocha's a lot more likely to give up if he knows resistance is futile.
> 
> EDIT: And maybe you can try turning her around to face away from you this time when cornering her? Like I said, not only will she be surprised, she also can't see where she can escape (since she's facing the corner) so you can use that to your advantage.



Bunnies have nearly 360 degree vision; their only blind spot is very small and is located directly in front of them, so facing the corner won't actually make it harder to plot escape routes... however, being in the corner *does* mean 2 of the 4 possible directions are impassible and the human directly behind would certainly block visibility a great deal


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## Sophie's Humble Servant (Dec 14, 2013)

I would've thought her luxurious mane would be a blind spot but it doesn't seem to hinder her in any way...she shakes her head and her mane flies around in reckless abandonment lol.


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## missyscove (Dec 14, 2013)

If I were you I would try working on even just holding her in one spot on the ground. My own rabbits are not cuddle-bunnies (except when it comes to cuddling eachother) but both of them do get regularly handled by me because there are times when you do have to handle them (taking them to the vet, nail trims, emergencies, etc.) and it's important to me that both I and my rabbits are comfortable with it. 

We recently had a dinner talk with a vet who sees mostly rabbit and her personal technique started with petting them between the eyes and then working your way back until you were holding their shoulders. If you have good control of their shoulders generally that keeps them from bolting forward. 

My bunnies get treats for coming to me, treats for touching me, and treats for climbing into my lap. They think their pellets are treats and that's how they get about 1/2 of their pellets each day. 

I don't want you rushing into things both of you aren't comfortable with if you can't even touch her when you want to.


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## Sophie's Humble Servant (Dec 14, 2013)

That's a good suggestion. How do I hold her shoulders? Am I using one hand only? Where should the placement of my hand be(direction)?

Thanks


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## JBun (Dec 14, 2013)

Jennifer, you have an accent! Is it a Texan accent? You and Amy have it sooo easy. Your buns are so well behaved. Yes, even with the little nip you got at the end. Great video's though.

I have one bun that DETESTS being picked up. She bucks, growls, and grunts at me, and this is just to let her out for playtime. I have another that will bite if I reach to pick her up but is fine once I'm holding her. My biting bun I have to first secure her over her shoulders/head(so I don't get bit), then I will reach under her belly with my other hand, and as I'm lifting I will slide my hand that was over the shoulders/head, back to support the rump, and bring her right to my chest. Once she is there she is fine and loves to be snuggled.

My grunty bun does NOT want me picking her up, and it's not because she isn't used to it. I held her all of the time as a baby. As she hit her teen years she decided she hated it for some reason. So she's a bit more difficult to handle. I either have to catch her by surprise when she's near me, or corner her. She's not treat motivated either, or I could use that trick. To get her to hold still so I can pick her up, I will either wait til she is near me and not looking in my direction or get her in a corner where she can't get past me, then I'll quickly place my hand firmly(but gently) over the shoulders so she can't dart away, then scoop right up with a hand on the rump and sliding my shoulder hand under the belly(slightly different than my bitey bun, but works better for this rabbit as she's smaller and wigglier) and right onto my chest where I hold her with a hand under the rump and one over the shoulders. Sometimes having your hand over the eyes helps as well, but you still need to maintain a firm hold. I have to keep a gentle but firm hold on her the whole time I'm holding her as she will always try to squirm loose, except she will sometimes relax when I am giving nose rubs. With flighty buns, you need to halt that flight and fleeing reaction first. So that's what the hand over the shoulders accomplishes. Then when you have the fleeing under control, then you can move to working out the scooping up part.

This video has a few different handling techniques. I don't know if any of them will be helpful.
http://rabbit.org/how-to-handle-a-rabbit/


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## Sophie's Humble Servant (Dec 14, 2013)

That is a wonderful video and would be very helpful for me if Sophie actually allowed me to "handle" her. Ugh there's so much conflicting info, it's making me second guess how to go about this
I wish Sophie was like that rabbit in the video. They say in the video that you shouldn't chase your rabbit because then it makes them feel like prey...that makes sense...argh I don't know what to do. This whole thing I'm finding very emotional and I feel like I'm not being a good mom to Sophie...but then I think about how I would feel if something happened to her BECAUSE I didn't take the proactive approach with handling her... I'm sad and feeling very overwhelmed


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## JBun (Dec 14, 2013)

Not chasing does make sense, but sometimes with some rabbits, some chasing has to happen to be able to get to that point of easier handling. Plus rabbits NEED to be able to be handled, checked, and cared for. And we can't always wait around as caretakers, until they decide that it is ok with them for us to pick them up. With skittish rabbits, you need to be able to handle them for nail trims and health checks. It's minimal and doesn't need to happen very often, then the rest of the time we don't need to be chasing them down and can work on slowly getting them used to being handled. That's for rabbits that are skittish about being held or being around people. Then there are the buns that see the chase as a game, or they are just being stubborn and don't want playtime to end. Then it's just 'too bad buddy' playtime is over, there's no harm done, and the rabbit is just fine back in it's pen/cage, and maybe just a little annoyed about it.

I know you didn't need to see yet another well behaved bun being picked up, but I figured being able to see different ways of picking up might be helpful, as some rabbits will squirm, wiggle, and kick if they don't like the way they are being picked up, but will be ok with another method of being picked up. It's just soooo different for each and every rabbit. It can take a lot of experimentation and trial and error, to figure out what works best for our particular rabbit. If the method that you are trying now just doesn't seem to be working out, then don't be afraid to try a different method.

The fact is that it is a necessity to be able to handle them at least a little bit. With rabbits that are scared of people and terrified of being handled or even touched, then a more gentle approach should probably be used. But Sophie is used to people, she's fine with you, so it's just being picked up that she doesn't like. As long as her behavior towards you doesn't change, just keep it up. She'll either get more used to it, or you'll get better at it where you can handle her even if she still doesn't like it much. Roo, my grunty bun, has never gotten used to being held. She still hates it, but I have to do health checks and nail trims, so it HAS to happen whether she likes it or not. And when I set her back down, I get foot flicked or thumped at, but then she hops up and wants her nose rubs. She's upset at me for two seconds then she's fine.

So just keep it up. If what you are doing seems to be going well, and she seems to be adjusting and getting used to it, then you are on the right track.


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## aozora (Dec 14, 2013)

JBun said:


> Not chasing does make sense, but sometimes with some rabbits, some chasing has to happen to be able to get to that point of easier handling. Plus rabbits NEED to be able to be handled, checked, and cared for. And we can't always wait around as caretakers, until they decide that it is ok with them for us to pick them up. With skittish rabbits, you need to be able to handle them for nail trims and health checks. It's minimal and doesn't need to happen very often, then the rest of the time we don't need to be chasing them down and can work on slowly getting them used to being handled. That's for rabbits that are skittish about being held or being around people. Then there are the buns that see the chase as a game, or they are just being stubborn and don't want playtime to end. Then it's just 'too bad buddy' playtime is over, there's no harm done, and the rabbit is just fine back in it's pen/cage, and maybe just a little annoyed about it.
> 
> I know you didn't need to see yet another well behaved bun being picked up, but I figured being able to see different ways of picking up might be helpful, as some rabbits will squirm, wiggle, and kick if they don't like the way they are being picked up, but will be ok with another method of being picked up. It's just soooo different for each and every rabbit. It can take a lot of experimentation and trial and error, to figure out what works best for our particular rabbit. If the method that you are trying now just doesn't seem to be working out, then don't be afraid to try a different method.
> 
> ...



I agree so much with this! Mocha may seem (relatively) well-behaved in the video I made about how I pick him up, but I've had Mocha since April and he maaaybe only just started growing more used to being picked up about two months ago, so it took a good half year. Even then, he would still kick up a storm the moment he sensed that I was going to put him back down. I'd say it was only a month ago or even less that he became a lot better about staying calm when I'm setting him down until he's less than a foot from the ground. I even asked a question here on RO about the best way to set him down once I've got him in my arms, and I was offered a lot of suggestions that didn't really work for me either until I somehow meandered my way to this particular method of setting him down butt first that actually works alright for Mocha. 

But the six months prior to that, before I even got to that point? Oh man, I could barely keep him in my arms for more than a minute (while I'm sitting on the floor no less) without him struggling and kicking up a storm. It used to terrify me to pick him up because I was so afraid of hurting him-- and getting hurt in return, of course. I used to be so jealous of all the people online who would talk about how their bunnies love to be snuggled and held, and I never expected myself to get this far with Mocha. And like Jenny's Roo, while he still doesn't like it and will definitely let me know he did NOT appreciate being picked up through feet flicks and back turning, he would bunny loaf and tooth-purr the moment I start petting him as an apology.

So what I'm trying to say is it may seem impossible now, but it's a matter of time and persistence. Make a regular habit of it, give her a treat after if you want (I don't tend to unless I know he was really scared or mad; usually I just offer apologetic nose rubs), and keep experimenting until you find something she tolerates. There is no single "right" way to go about it, even if you wish there was-- just like how there's no single personality for bunnies!


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## missyscove (Dec 14, 2013)

I had to go try it out and see how I hold her shoulders. You can definitely use 2 hands to do it too but I had my phone in the other hand. 
You can even try that out while she's eating or something just to get her used to you touching her and the idea that just because you're touching her doesn't mean you're going to eat her.


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## Sophie's Humble Servant (Dec 15, 2013)

Thank you for there photo. What is the purpose of the hand over the head? Is that to cover their eyes? Should I be emulating both pics? I understand the shoulder onto but just want clarification on the other one.

Thank you


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## missyscove (Dec 15, 2013)

Well I start with petting the nose and then sort of move my hand back to her shoulders so the hand on her head too I guess is like an inbetween step. 

The shoulder restraining works well for doing physical exams on bunnies, guinea pigs, etc. because the tech/assistant can hold the shoulders while the vet works from the butt end keeping the rabbit from moving backwards and the tech can just move their hands out of the way for things like auscultation with a stethoscope. 

What everyone else is doing isn't wrong, but if it's stressing you two out that much it just might be better to take some smaller steps.

Oh and both of my bunnies will flee from me when they think I'm trying to pick them up, Cricket (in the photo) moreso than Watson so I do understand what you're going through!


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## Sophie's Humble Servant (Dec 15, 2013)

So my next question is, how much pressure are you using? I mean, I would think that it would have to be quite a bit to prevent them from escaping? And are you applying pressure down and by clutching the shoulder? Sorry for all the questions, I'm just trying to get as much info as possible before I attempt it


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## missyscove (Dec 15, 2013)

Pressure down to keep them from leaping up in the air and pressure back to keep them from moving forward yes, but not so much that you're squishing them. When handling buns in general I find you have to be fairly firm so they feel secure rather than being so light that you're basically just tickling them. 

If she doesn't even let you touch her if you want to pet her though, start there. I start with getting mine to take treats from my hands and then eating out of my hands, then sometimes I'll pet them under the chins while they're eating, then move on to between their eyes or their backs. If they don't like that and run off, well too bad because I'm the one holding breakfast in my hands so they do come back eventually.


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## Sophie's Humble Servant (Dec 15, 2013)

She's ok with me petting her, I can even usually get away with touching front feet, back and rump as long as I don't try too much. She also is better with being touched in the late evening. She's ok with me keeping my hand on her head, back and also able to keep a still hand on her lower back/rump area. 

So I tried to hold her down by the shoulder, I thought I was using enough pressure but apparently not because she had no trouble getting away from my grip.

I'll try again tomorrow.


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## Imbrium (Dec 15, 2013)

I know it can be SO frustrating to work with an animal that is adamantly opposed to what you're doing... patience and persistence is the way to get results. I've got a glider, Hobbes, that was 9 months old and pretty set in his ways when he came to us... I got him in mid May and it's only in the last couple months that I could even pet him while he's in his sleeping pouch without him immediately trying to bite me if I didn't have his shoulders pinned down to sneak in a few gentle strokes. Even now, I still can't pick him up without getting bitten unless it's only for a split second and then I put him down before he "remembers" to bite me (sometimes I get him and Hurricane mixed up and grab him by accident, then have an "oh sh*t" moment). After 7 months, he's still not even remotely close to being fully bonded (we're maybe halfway there)... compared to my fastest bond, Tabitha, which only took about a month.

Every animal is different and some take a lot longer to come around than others. As I mentioned in the video and missyscove mentioned above, if one tactic isn't working, keep trying others - some bunnies have a certain method that they're less offended by than others.


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## PaGal (Dec 17, 2013)

To get her used to being in your lap, if you feed pellets you can try coaxing her into your lap with the pellets. Since they should receive more pellets than treats she will stay there longer or come back more often. You could even try with hay depending. Thumper when young would happily sit in my lap and munch away at his hay. He only seemed to stop when he got bigger so I guess maybe my lap stopped being comfortable.


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## Imbrium (Dec 17, 2013)

With how limited pellets are (at least for adults) and how tasty rabbits find them, hand-feeding them definitely makes for great treats and a good bonding ritual - I still hand-feed pellets to my girls sometimes and they love it.


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## Sophie's Humble Servant (Dec 17, 2013)

Just got back from the vet with Sophie for her nail trim. After talking to the vet tech about the different methods of picking up a rabbit she thought the best method would be the football hold with Sophie's eyes covered in the crook of my arm. I practiced picking her up three times while we were there and she didn't struggle once. She did struggle when her eyes weren't covered so the vet tech felt that if I didn't use the football hold when initially picking her up, she might hurt herself.

She said that once I have Sophie in the position, then I could allow her to look around but that it was really important that her eyes be covered while lifting, when she's in limbo so to speak. 

However, though this sounds like progress, it's still going to be difficult applying the technique at home. The last time she was at the vet I was able to pick her up quite easily but at home she turns into a wild animal and I can't get a grip on her. 

It was so nice, she was like those well behaved bunnies in the videos. Because she was petrified! That's inherently the problem. Fear from being at the vet makes her easy to handle.

I will try this technique again. I actually got some insight on where the hand placement is this time. Though I don't feel like I'm going to be able to use this technique at home anytime soon, it will be very useful for me when I have to take Sophie through airport security when I move.


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