# Bunny has UTI, on Baytril, need advice!!!



## dianerae (Oct 30, 2012)

Slinky is a 3 year old female New Zealand- Chinchilla beauty. She lives strickley in the house, is fixed and is 8 lbs. She eats a variety of fresh greens, oxbows BBT, unlimited timothy hay and takes a vit. C and papaya tab. daily. She was urinating outside of her litter box and we noticed her urine looked "off" so we took her to the vet (she had a UTI 2 years ago). She was started on Baytril 0.8 mls twice daily. It has been a real struggle getting it into her, she fights us horribly!!!! I know we should be giving a probiotic like probios 2-3 hrs after the antibiotic but it is just so hard and so stressful for her just receiving the med. that we were wondering if it would be alright it give her the probios right after we get the med into her (while she is still wrapped in a towel like a burrito). Will giving the probios right after the antibiotic have any effects on the antibiotic? Also i was wondering what veggies are not high in oxylates???? She loves parsley, kale, spinach, beet greens and dandolines--all high in oxylates. What is left except romaine, cilantro and green leaf lettuce? Any informations would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.


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## gmas rabbit (Oct 30, 2012)

I would definitely try just giving it to her at the same time. Better than the fight. Benebac is also a good one. I would stay away from kale and spinach for sure. They are very high in oxylates and calcium. Cilantro, parsley in limited amounts, endive lettuce - the curly kind not the belgium, romaine, herbal spring mix, squash, chard are all good. Derby is a real picky eater, he is mostly on endive lettuce, chard and limited parsley. Have you tried dried cranberries or adding fresh cranberry juice to her water.


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## JBun (Oct 30, 2012)

You're really supposed to wait to give the probiotic because if you give it right after it will negate the effect of the probiotic. So will she not take the probiotic on her own? My bun absolutely loves getting his probiotic. It's like his favorite treat!

I had read someone else's thread, maybe last week, about her rabbit not minding the baytril, then they got a new batch of it from the vet and this was mixed differently, using the injectible baytril which is supposedly nasty, and the rabbit didn't like the new stuff. The baytril I've given to my rabbit is the pink liquid, and my rabbit likes the taste of it and will take it without any problems. Ask your vet what they used to make the suspenion liquid, and see if they have something different you could get from them.

I know! The list of leafy greens is kind of limited. The list I read said that dandelion greens were ok. Also carrot tops, basil, mint, wheatgrass, raspberry leaves, spring greens.


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## JBun (Oct 30, 2012)

Ok, so I checked about the baytril if you are interested. The mix made with the injectible can be somewhat irritating to their stomachs and doesn't taste very good. The other suspension liquid, is made from the crushed baytril tablets and is supposedly better.


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## dianerae (Oct 30, 2012)

The baytril tastes good--yes I tried it!! It was mixed with cherry juice so it is not the taste. We have tried many different ways to get her to take it and the only way is to hold her and syringe feed it to her. She acts like we are trying to poison her!!!!! That is why we were giving the probiotic paste right after the baytril--to limit the times we have to stress her out. I was wondering if when they r given together if the probios would prevent the Baytril from being effective to the UTI. She does not like the probios or bene-bac. We have tried putting it on fruit, mixing it in with pumpkin ect. She still sniffs it and runs away. She is very much a princess!!!! I am going out to get some endive. Both my buns love it. I will try the chard--at one time she didnt like it but I will try again. I did try giving her dried cranberries as a preventative before and she snubbed those.


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## Imbrium (Oct 30, 2012)

are you guys sure kale is high in oxylates? (which I assume is the same as oxalic acid?) according to http://www.rabbit.org/care/veggies.html the list of veggies with a high OA content is pretty short...

Leafy Greens I (need to be rotated due to oxalic acid content and only 1 out of three varieties of greens a day should be from this list)
# Parsley
# Spinach
# Mustard greens
# Beet greens
# Swiss chard
# Radish tops
# Sprouts (from 1 to 6 days after sprouting, sprouts have higher levels of alkaloids)

Leafy Greens II (low in oxalic acid)
# Arugula
# Carrot tops
# Cucumber leaves
# Endive
# Ecarole
# Frisee Lettuce
# Kale (all types)
# Mache
# Red or green lettuce
# Romaine lettuce
# Spring greens
# Turnip greens
# Dandelion greens
# Mint (any variety)
# Basil (any variety)
# Watercress
# Wheatgrass
# Chicory
# Raspberry leaves
# Cilantro
# Radicchio
# Bok Choy
# Fennel (the leafy tops as well as the base)
# Borage leaves
# Dill leaves
# Yu choy


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## JBun (Oct 30, 2012)

I'm kind of curious about kale too. I've seen on some lists that it is high in OA and some lists it's not. There's so many varying opiniions about things, who knows what's true :?

Wow, I would have thought with all the sugar they put in the meds, any bun would like it  

Giving the probios at the same time as the baytril, won't make the baytril uneffective, but it will make the probios uneffective. Batril is an antibiotic,which means it kills bacteria, good and bad, which is why you give the probiotic a couple hours later. You're giving the antibiotic time to be absorbed and moved through the digestion so that it won't destroy the beneficial bactetia from the probiotic. Giving the probiotic right after the baytril would really just be wasting your effort. Medicating our buns is just a pain, no question about it!


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## Geoff (Oct 31, 2012)

I am curious about the first thing... urinary tract infections in rabbits are very rare... and rabbit urine being 'off'.. .what does that mean? Rabbit urine can look very different day to day and still be normal.. sometimes white and chalky, sometimes watery, sometimes yellow, sometimes clear, sometimes orange, sometimes red, sometimes in-between, sometimes with chunks in it etc.... all normal. Only way to diagnose a bladder infection in a rabbit is to get a sterile sample of urine (via a cystotomy) and grow a bacteria from it... otherwise it is not a UTI. Even blood, though rare, (real blood- most 'blood' found in rabbit urine is really a reddish porphyrn dye, which is normal or sign of stress) in urine does not mean a UTI.. just means there is something causing bleeding in the bladder (or reproductive tract if its a female)- could be a stone, a tumor, bladder trauma, etc. Either way, might want to be sure this is real infection before giving medications. 

Baytril, if made from the injectable formulation, tastes horrible no matter how much Cherry syrup you add to it... even banana syrup, probably the best flavor for covering up bad flavors, cannot mask injectable baytril.. it not only tastes bad, it is chemically irritating to the mucus membranes (this is what my compounding pharmacist told me... I guess he actually tastes medications now and then). It is no wonder bunnies don't take well to this product given orally. However, saying that, it is not supposed to actually be harmful... just yukky. 

Kale is indeed very high in oxylates. There are a number of websites that list the oxylate contents of greens, and though many have variations that I do not understand, most will list kale high on the list. Kale is one of the very highest- common cause of oxylate toxicity in large animals actually (not sure why any animal would eat kale.. I hate the stuff!). However, saying that, there is still much controversy over whether oxalates in greens are high enough to even be a clinical concern in rabbits. Many rabbit specialist feel they are not, but cautiously suggest not ONLY feeding these greens, and varying them. Lettuce, though not terribly nutritious, at least seems to a good alternative to give in place of kale and the others periodically. There are actually a lot of good green leafy veggies (list right about this comment shows that) that are not excessive in oxylates.


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## dianerae (Oct 31, 2012)

I should have explained the urine, not just stated it was off. I realize the color of the urine can be different sometimes according to what they may be eating ect. Her urine looked chalky so we thought sludge, excess calcium, possible UTI, we were just unsure what was wrong but just felt like something was not quite right--kind of like a gut feeling kind of thing. The vet did an ultrasound bladder scan, a urinalysis and a urine sediment exam. Vet said there was also thickening of the bladder walls and a UTI. She told us to limit the amount of veggies that were high in calcium and oxylates. I know there is a lot of controversy on this issue, we have always fed our bunnies lots of parsley along with limited spinach and kale--they love those 3 greens. I just hate giving her the med and stressing her out, but if it is for her best, then we have to do it. 

The baytril is not the injectable kind, and like I said it really does not taste bad because I tasted it. She just doesnt want to take it. I know she needs to probiotic but I just hate having to hold her an extra time on top of the twice a day med. administration and forcing her to eat it. That is why I was giving it to her right after her med. We feel like horrible bunny parents :nerves1


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## JBun (Oct 31, 2012)

You're not horrible bunny parents. You actually seem like very concerned bunny parents. Sometimes we have to do things for our buns, that they don't like, but we have to do it cause they need it to get better. Kind of like kids. They may not like taking their medicine, but we know they need it to get better. So we know we are being great bunny parents, even if they think at the moment we are being mean. In the end when they are all better, they are happy again, ane we're happpy, and it's all good


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## gmas rabbit (Oct 31, 2012)

under the article in the same area Lowering Blood Calcium - Rabbit House Society - " many veterinarians are advising clients whose rabbits have urinary/bladder problems to decrease the amount of calcium in their rabbits diets". Having lost Benjamin last year to bladder sludge and the complications with it, I try and be careful how much calcium Derby gets. It is kind of a catch 22 situation. You lower the OA levels but end up with too much calcium. The article goes on to say that although rabbits require calcium for bone, nerve and muscle function and blood clotting the minimium requirement for an average sized rabbit is 510 milligams per day. That amount is contained in less than 2 ounces of pellets or l cup of turnip greens. Alfalfa is extremely high in calcium that is why it is recommended to feed timothy or oat hay. Carrots and radishs as are most root vegetables low in calcium, but then again high in sugar content. Broccoli flowers and stems, cilantro, dark green lettuce, watercress, brussel spouts, celery leaves, cabbage, and endive are good choices. Turnip greens, broccoli leaves, mustard greens, kales and collards greens should be restricted. Chard - 18 mg, lettuce 20 mg, endive 26 mg, carrots 30 mg, watercress 40 mg, spinach 56 mg, parsley 78 mg, kales 137 mg and mustard greens a whooping 315 mg. Trying to figure out what to or not to feed your bunny can drive you nuts.


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## Imbrium (Oct 31, 2012)

*Geoff wrote: *


> Kale is indeed very high in oxylates. There are a number of websites that list the oxylate contents of greens, and though many have variations that I do not understand, most will list kale high on the list. Kale is one of the very highest- common cause of oxylate toxicity in large animals actually (not sure why any animal would eat kale.. I hate the stuff!). However, saying that, there is still much controversy over whether oxalates in greens are high enough to even be a clinical concern in rabbits. Many rabbit specialist feel they are not, but cautiously suggest not ONLY feeding these greens, and varying them. Lettuce, though not terribly nutritious, at least seems to a good alternative to give in place of kale and the others periodically. There are actually a lot of good green leafy veggies (list right about this comment shows that) that are not excessive in oxylates.


ugh, that is BAD news for my bunnies . I keep a steady supply of kale because it is the ONLY veggie that Nala will eat more than a couple nibbles of.


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## woahlookitsme (Oct 31, 2012)

Straight from Dr. Jay Hreiz's mouth probiotics can be given 20-30minutes before abx or 1hour after


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## dianerae (Nov 1, 2012)

Thanks for the info Sarah :big wink:


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## Sweetie (Nov 1, 2012)

*woahlookitsme wrote: *


> Straight from Dr. Jay Hreiz's mouth probiotics can be given 20-30minutes before abx or 1hour after



This is true. I had to give Prince an antibiotic and probiotic when he was alive and had to take them to prevent infection.


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