# Resolved!-not eating, drooling, not pooping...



## MILU (Jan 12, 2010)

*I have a male white rabbit, 5 years old. Usually eats dark leaves, bunny food (pellets), some wood, sunflower seeds (not much of the last), some banana and apple pieces daily.

He often has eye discharge (not now, but always has it) and bad breath.

He stopped eating about 5 days ago. 
Now he's drooling excessively, breath smelled like acetone (got a little better after we started feeding him bunny food juice with a syringe), almost don't poop at all, perhaps for not eating solids anymore. He tries to give a bite in his food and stops there without trying again for the day and night. Eating seems to hurt him and he refuses even the liquid food given with the syringe.

He has some sort of nodule under his chin. It's painful,he doesn't want anyone touching it (I found it out while cleaning his drool). The vet said that wouldn't cause the drooling, etc., but didn't examine it to know what it can be. 
His feces were examined and at least the thing the vet suspected it could be is ruled out. Lots of gas trapped in the intestine but he's being medicated for it.

I took him to all available vets in my town but nobody found any cause for his case, they're as puzzled as me and are welcoming help. They sent us home and told me to keep trying to feed the bunny. 


I know my bunny wouldn't be acting like this from out of the blue without a reason, and that his symptoms seem classic for teeth problems. I'm posting the 2 x-ray pics here, perhaps someone will see something and help us? 
THANKS, ANY HELP IS WELCOME!!
*











*** I, MYSELF, WONDER IF THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG ON THESE 2 SPOTS MARKED HERE:
(broken/bad tooth?)


----------



## Fancy77 (Jan 12, 2010)

Hi huni I am sorry u r having issues with your bunny and it must b scary, I am sorry that I am unable to help u but did want u to know your links didnt show up GOOD LUCK!!!


----------



## pla725 (Jan 12, 2010)

Sounds like you are on the right track. It is probably an abcess. Where are you located? I would get another opinion.


----------



## SweetSassy (Jan 12, 2010)

*pla725 wrote: *


> Sounds like you are on the right track. It is probably an abcess. Where are you located? I would get another opinion.


:yeahthat: I agree with pla725. Sounds like an abcess. I would get a second opinion.


----------



## Luvr of Wabbits and Polar Bears (Jan 12, 2010)

I fixed the Pictures so the mods can view them and help you better. If you post where you located or your general location we can help you find a good Rabbit Savy vet.


----------



## ra7751 (Jan 12, 2010)

Your rabbit has a mandibular abscess secondary to a molar root impaction. Most vets do not know how to properlytreat this condition. The impaction can be caused bymany things including birth defects, trauma, Metabolic Bone Disease (a nutritional issue related to a deficiency in Vitamin D and/or calcium) or secondary to an infection among other things. An abscess contains anaerobic bacteria that will not respond to the drugs that most vets prescribe. I have developed a protocol using a specific version of Penicillin (safe only when used as an injectable) and Azithromycin (Zithromax). This is in combination with a full support protocol including pain management, hydration supplementation and modified feeding protocols. I have never opened a manidibular abscess. There are some cases in which the offending pre-molars or molars may need to be floated or removed (and in the case of extraction, the opposing teeth must be extracted). Oral surgery in a rabbit is a very delicate surgery and should not be attempted by an inexperienced vet. If a mandibular abscess is not aggressively treated, it will damage the basic structure of the jaw itself which can result in additional damage or can even reach the point of becoming septic...which is usually fatal. This issue needs aggressive treatment as quickly as possible by a skilled doctor.

I would also suspect the diet your rabbit is being fed may be contributing to dental issues. Hay should be the primary part of the diet. Hay is not only essential to a properly operating hind gut fermentation digestive system, hay is very chewy and that is what keeps the teeth worn to a proper length. The diet you have your rabbit on is not what is normally considered a proper diet.

Randy


----------



## MILU (Jan 13, 2010)

I'm in Sao Paulo, BRAZIL.. not too many vets at all who take care of bunnies..... They didn't look at his teeth, only through the x-ray.. I don't even know if they know how to look at his teeth here. It's disappointing. 
Thanks!!!


----------



## MILU (Jan 13, 2010)

If only there was someone else I could find here to have a 2nd opinion!! That's why I'm posting this here, I'm sure you guys have more experience and understanding of cases like this! 
Thanks!


----------



## aurora369 (Jan 13, 2010)

Randy would be your best bet for a second opinion. He works with these kinds of situations quite frequently. He is not a vet but works with some of the top vets in the USA through his rabbit and wildlife rescue. 

See if your vet would be willing to take advice from someone out of the country. Someone may be able to get their vet to call your vet in Brazil to give advice over the phone. 

Do you know if injectable penicillin is available for use with animals in Brazil? And if so, what form it is? There are several types and based on the type the frequency of dosing will change. You should also ask if Azithromycin is available in Brazil as well. It is an oral antibiotic normally given to children for ear infections, but very effective against the bacteria that causes most infections in rabbits.

Also, you should get as much fluids into your rabbit as possible. Oral if he'll take them, and if not you should get your vet to do sub-q fluids (under the skin) and show you how to administer them. Hydrating a rabbit is most important to getting their digestive system back on track.

Pain medication should also be given. I can imagine that eating would be very painful right now. See what your vet can get you for him.

-Dawn


----------



## MILU (Jan 13, 2010)

Thanks everybody, and thanks, Dawn!!

I surely trust Randy and HOW I WISH I could have him treating my bunny!!!

I'll talk to my bunny's vet - the "best" I found here, and I'll ask about the penicillin, etc. Thanks for suggesting phone contact, it's really nice of you!
I LOVE my bunny and can't believe I'll have to watch him die without being able to help if the vets can't do anything.
Hopefully they will be able to!!

My bunny isn't yet dehydrated (according to the vet), and yesterday and today took a small shot with what must be vitamins. Yesterday took an antibiotic shot (I don't know what).

Despite all the bad symptoms, my bunny has a general "good" disposition for such a case, and tonight he even drank water and gave 3 bites on his food without being forced to. I thought that could be an improvement, but it seems like his condition isn't the kind of thing that will just "improve" without the right treatment, right? I'll look for someone who's able to help.

My vet recommended pineapple juice. Do you (and Randy) agree that's good? From now on, you're my real, primary vet  , and the vet here will be like an assistant. 

What you say makes way more sense than saying my happy bunny is "stressed" and sending us back home.

Thanks again!!!!


----------



## AngelnSnuffy (Jan 13, 2010)

I'm so sorry to hear you're having to deal with possible teeth issues. Poor bunny. Give him a pat or two from me.

I agree that Randy is absolutely awesome and we are so honored to have him bless our forum.:inlove:

Let us know when you get to the vet and what the outcome is.

In the meantime, I got a thread from our Library here that might interest you a bit about teeth.

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=11901&forum_id=10


----------



## MILU (Jan 13, 2010)

THANKS EVERYBODY!! YOU'RE ALL GREAT!

One more question I have is: how long would my bunny live in case I can't find anyone who's able to perform a surgery? 

If I treat my bunny with the antibiotic Randy prescribed (if available, I hope it is!), injecting fluids in his mouth (like bunny food, dark leaves and fruit juice), and perhaps injecting some vitamins too, if needed - would he live long? 

My vet told me bunnies' stomachs tend to "shut down" if they don't eat. 
My bunny has eaten something like 4 bites of food yesterday (which was great comparing to the 4 preceding days) and even pooped some tiny little stuff, not too many, but something at least. 

I wonder if this sort of liquid feeding could create an irreversible problem in his stomach/ intestine/ cecum by the lack of "solids", or if this is enough to keep things "working" at least for some time while we try to figure out what to do or if there really isn't ANYONE in the country who could save my beloved bunny, who even knows how to change tv channels and open doors...  
He's a fighter and is still able to play some and may not even look sick sometimes. I admire his strength and will do my best to keep him well. 
Thanks for all your help, I appreciate more than I could ever say!


----------



## massie777 (Jan 13, 2010)

If I where you and you couldn't find someone to do surgery on the rabbit I would really look into putting him to sleep. Abcesses with their teeth are really painful that is probably why he is not eating and if it was my bunny I wouldn't want to put him through that much pain for a long period of time. I am very sorry for your bunny, we had one in the rescue that had a toothroot abcess. She also was drooling and couldn't eat...we opted to put her to sleep just to stop the pain, surgery on rabbits teeth is really hard. 
I hope the best for your rabbit and just think whats best for him in the long run.


----------



## ra7751 (Jan 13, 2010)

Surgery is rarely required....and many of these surgeries performed are not necessary and are the result of an inexperienced vet that doesn't really understand the nature of a rabbit abscess. I have a rabbit here, JoJo, that a forum member arranged to have transferred to me from another state. He had a huge mandibular abscess.....and if I remember correctly he was near being euthanized. I treated him by drugs only....no surgery. He has now been here a couple of years and is perfectly healthy. The abscess did not return as we got him on a proper diet to keep his teeth down. There may be some instances that a minor surgical procedure may be necessary but I haven't had to do any surgeries on the numerous cases involving an absess.

If your vet is willing....I can consult with him/her on my protocols via e-mail. I might have to make some adjustments on drugs depending on what is available there.....but it would be a learning experience for your vet.

Randy


----------



## MILU (Jan 13, 2010)

I was thinking of putting my bunny to sleep IF NECESSARY. 
Not by now, as he still is full of life and able to play, I hardly can believe he's so strong even with this problem! He can still find joy despite the pain. But IF I feel that he's suffering too much and no longer enjoys life, then I may have to shorten his cross...

BUT if Randy can give me/my vet advice on treatment/medicine, that would be WONDERFUL! That's the best news ever, since the discovery of penicillin!!

I don't think the vets in my bunny's clinic speak English though, but I do very well and can translate it all and show them Randy's emails in English along with my translation. They SURELY will be glad to acquire such AWESOME knowledge!
I don't have our vet's email now, but mine is [email protected] and I'll send you their email as soon as I have it.

Randy, I simply CAN'T thank you enough!! And I know ALL my thankfulness is nothing compared to the incredible work you do saving these bunnies. You're acquiring such good karma in life and you're such a good example of a praiseworthy person! I wish I could help animals and people who own them like you do!


----------



## ra7751 (Jan 13, 2010)

Talk to your vet....I need to know what antibiotics are available and what is licensed for veterinary use in Brazil. I am looking for a specific version of Penicillin....it's known by many names but most commonly Pen G or Bicillin. This drug contains two separate drugs that work in a little bit different ways. The two components are Procaine and Benzathine. See if these drugs are available either together in one compound or separately. If so, I need to know the concentration. Also see if Azithromycin (Zithromax) is available for animal use. Pain meds will also be necessary. I am looking for an NSAID...preferably Metacam (Meloxicam) or a similar drug although Metacam is readily tolerated when used properly. A narcotic like Buprenorphine (Buprenex) or a narcotic like drug like Tramadol will be needed. If a molar float is necessary, I can probably walk your vet thru this but it might not be necessary. If those drugs are available, I can send the dosing protocols directly to your vet written as a technical prescription that he/she will understand. As far as euthanasia....as long as your rabbit is eating and responding to you....and you are willing to treat him....go for it. You will need to learn how to do injections as the Penicillin is safe only as an injectable....and you will need to supplement hydration by sub-q during the treatments. Let me know on the drugs.

I live near a major vet school and some of the staff there have taught all over the world. I will see if they know a rabbit savvy vet, or a vet they can suggest that we can work thru, that is in your area. And something else to consider....I know there are a lot of horses in Brazil.....medically rabbits and horses are treated identically...so a horse vet might be of benefit if you can find one. The only difference in treating a rabbit and a horse is the size of the patient.

Randy


----------



## MILU (Jan 13, 2010)

hi Randy

You're an amazing person, thanks for your help!!

About penicillin, I asked the vets at my bunny's clinic and - surprisingly - they didn't answer what kinds are available here, although I imagine there must be lots. I'll ask about the kinds you mentioned. I know we have pen G, I'll ask about it for vet use.

Vet said Azithromycin is available. 

Today I asked them to give my bunny something for his pain and, for the 1st time in 6 days, my bunny ate ground leaves. I wonder why he wasn't given that before. I thought there was nothing available for bunny pain, and after you mentioned pain management I asked for something and it worked well! 
Today he had the first "solids" to hit his stomach in all these days! I'm SO happy! Bad thing is he still has all the bloating and it makes horrible bubbling noises in his belly. 

The medicine for pain (today for the 1st time) given is "Plasil" (metoclopramide chlorhydrate). Vet didn't tell me the dosage or if we'll continue this treatment yet. I'm not sure if my dr. used an animal version of it (if we have it at all). BTW, my bunny weighs 2.5 kilos (5.5 pounds). Vet also suggested dipyrone for pain. 

My vet had prescribed 4 drops of dimeticone every 8 hours for the bloating for 3 days - human dimeticone. Today is the 3rd day, but as the bloating is still very bad, he told me to keep administering it. It doesn't seem to be working that well. 

I asked my vet if he'd like to proceed with your protocol and he told me he thinks it's risky to give penicillin to a bunny with all this bloating and stomach/ intestine problems. He looked nervous, maybe because it's something he never tried, I'm sure he appreciates your input.
He doesn't seem to be a fan of penicillin usage for animals, but said he'll do it if I want. I TRUST YOU AND YOUR METHOD. And I LOVE the story about JoJo! 
And I don't like that a bunny with a furball blockage I saw entering alive in my vet's clinic yesterday diedâ¦ aw.. as well as lots of other pets I asked about. I know my vet and staff do a good job and they've got good references (mentioned Vittorio Capello) but I also take account of how many successful stories I heard of their patients.. I guess all the stories I heard had a sad endâ¦ so I'm more than willing to try something new. I travel often to the USA and I know your country has great researchers and great outcome!
My vet said he'll do your protocol if I want, and I do want to proceed! It's more than an honor to have your help!

Today my bunny's mouth was finally examined with a scope and the vet said he couldn't see well (low batterie charge for the scope light!!) but he believes the teeth are not hurting the tongue or cheeks, despite he said they're just a little bit bigger than they should - but not a real problem yet.

Thanks for suggesting a horse vet. I hope my bunny's case can be solved "easily" with your antibiotic protocol + support protocol for pain, feeding, hydration though! Thanks a lot for everythingand I'll get back to you with more answers asap. 

Have a wonderful day! 

:bunnydance:


----------



## ra7751 (Jan 14, 2010)

DO NOT give Metaclopramide. Penicillin is perfectly safe, much more so and more effective than other drugs, when given by injection. Metaclopramide is a gut motility drug and causes painful contractions in the GI. If there is an ulcer forming during a GI event, the contractions can perforate the ulcer and the outcome of that is not good. And rabbits don't get "fur balls". I suspect the other rabbit you mentioned was given Metaclopramide. Gut motility drugs are never used on any of my rabbits.

If your vet will do a search, I think there might be some clinical information on using Penicillin. The reason your rabbit's gut is bloated is due to the death and decay of the beneficial bacteria. This will also allow a harmful bacteria, usually Clostridium, to start growing. This bacteria can be fatal. I use a horse product, BioSponge, to bind and filter the enterotoxins produced by Clostridium. Monitor and respond to hydration levels....hydration before nutrition.

As far as the teeth, there are points, called "molar spurs" that I can see on the x-ray. I can also see an impaction in the rad. This usually leads to an abscess, which is what it sounds like you have on your hands. To treat without surgery, you have to use drugs that can penetrate the encapsulation and treat anaerobic bacteria. The Pen/Zithromax combo can do that safely and effectively. When injected, the Penicillin has no negative effect on the GI flora.

Hope you can convince your vet to look "outside the box" and properly treat your rabbit.

Randy


----------



## MILU (Jan 14, 2010)

I wish I knew about Metaclopramide before!! It was administered today (PRAYERS!). No more for SURE. 

Can you give me the dosages of Meloxicam / Metacam? I'll look for them. And perhaps another vet to administer it..? Mine agreed in doing what you say but I don't like the fact that every pet I asked about died. And I hate to say, but the place isn't too clean. Still it's the best we found. Not too many vets see bunnies here 

Tell me more about BioSponge.. What's the composition? We may have it under a different name. Is there anything else I can use if I don't find it? 

What can I use for feeding and hydration support if needed? My vet said my bunny doesn't need sub-q hydration. (no? :?)

I can see sharp spurs in the x-ray too. And someone pulling my bunny's ears too!! :X

Let me know what's the dosage and how the combination of Pen g/zithromax you use shall be administered and I'll make sure THIS is the treatment my bunny will receive. If we don't have them, I'll let you know, but I'm sure they're pretty well known (at least for humans), we may have a vet version. 
Do you think we can wait for my bunny to eat more and feel better to start this treatment or this must be done asap? For how long will he need these shots? If we only manage the pain and he eats again, is that enough to have him "ok"?

And just out of curiosity: what causes the death of good bacteria in his gut? I asked that to my vet (before I met you and you told me it's a dental issue) the dialogue was:

me - why is there so much gas trapped there?
him - because he's not eating anymore
me - and why isn't he eating anymore?
him - because he's got gas trapped there. 

I don't want to be unappreciative about my vet, but the more I hear from you, the more I find things I was told by him and his staff vets don't make much sense.. the other vet from the clinic who saw us told me she was puzzled and would research more 'cause she couldn't see a dental prob or a cause for my bunny's drooling. That's when I posted here and I'm glad I found you! 

I can only thank you and believe you're a pioneer in a project of long distance saving lives through the web! I hope you get a reward for this like you deserve, like a Nobel or something. People like you deserve way more than that. ink iris:

** About the other bunny (who died): when I saw her (alive) they said they'd operate her to remove a furball from her intestine (stomach, whatever). May she rest in peace.. :tears2:


----------



## tonyshuman (Jan 14, 2010)

The gas can be helped by giving some simethicone. It's easiest to give as a liquid baby form--infant gas drops--but tablets will work as well. If you can find the liquid, 1ml/hr for 3 hrs should help, along with very gentle tummy massages and a heating pad.

I know Randy gave you a good answer. I want to say that it's important the bunny gets pain meds--that may help him to want to eat. The gas will not go through well if there's nothing in there. Force feeding a pellet slurry may help get his gut going again as well.

Also, make sure he is getting enough fluids. I would say pineapple juice is ok in this situation, but only because he hasn't eaten in so long and it sounds like he's going into ketosis--where his body stops having enough glucose to run on, and it starts breaking down proteins and muscle (the acetone smell on his breath). The sugar in pineapple juice can make gas worse, but it may be important to get his blood sugar up to keep him from starving.

If possible, a probiotic would help. Even human acidophilus capsules will work--just don't use yogurt or any dairy product. Here we recommend Bene-Bac or Probios, which are for dogs/cats and horses respectively, but I doubt you'll be able to find them.

If at all possible, get the bunny to a vet school. This vet may be the best around, but he doesn't sound great. Surgery for furballs, plus how they're treating your guy, these tell me they're not up to date on rabbit medicine.


----------



## MILU (Jan 14, 2010)

Thanks, Tonyshuman! As my bunny ate yesterday I'll stop giving the pineapple juice. Last thing we want is more gas. My bunny's mouth hasn't been smelling acetone since I started forced-feeding him. Thanks for the probiotics suggestion and the vet school!!!


----------



## MILU (Jan 20, 2010)

I finally found the probiotic!! It was hard to find it even for human consumption without milk. How much - and how should I administer it to my bunny?

He's been refusing more and more to eat.. I guess it has to do with all the gas in his tummy. When he tries to eat I hear that roaring and right after he REALLY refuses eating more. 

Thanks for your help


----------



## tonyshuman (Jan 20, 2010)

There's really no set dose for probiotics--I use a gel one and I give approximately a gram at a time, once or even twice a day if they're really not feeling well. Is it a dry powder? I'd take a good pinch, like for recipes, and try to dissolve it in water a bit, and then feed via syringe. If you don't have syringes for mouth feeding, an eye dropper will work. You could also stir it into something like a tiny bit of applesauce or pumpkin puree, and see if he'll eat that on his own.

Were you able to find simethicone too?


----------



## MILU (Jan 20, 2010)

I've been giving him Simethicone but it doesn't seem to help much. My bunny is still bloated... tapping his belly sounds like a bongo.

I guess the bloating is why he refuses to eat even liquids or purees. His belly roars really loud. He doesn't want any food at all. Well, he "wants", but only before seeing or sniffing - whatever it is. He wants paper though... SIGH!!! Massage doesn't help much either. 

I'm counting on the probotics. I'll receive them tomorrow or the day after. It's powder. Thanks again for your help. I have a syringe and will give it to him as soon as it's delivered at my home.

I got people here suggesting the weirdest things: Phillips milk of magnesia, olive oil, lemongrass and camomile tea... what do you think? I won't do anything before asking here - I know you're experienced!! I'm still visiting all vets I can, haven't found any decent option.... but will keep on trying!!! THANKS for the support!!


----------



## Maureen Las (Jan 20, 2010)

if you can get any kind of gas medication in liquid form ( usually sold for infants) with the only active ingredient being simthicone... that would help him. 

You may need to go to a pharmacy and read the backs of labels...liquid medication for gas with only simethicone.


----------



## MILU (Jan 20, 2010)

That's what I've been giving to my bunny - Simethicone (only). I don't know if the medicine itself doesn't work (like our vets, unable to even diagnose a bunny, saying they're "savvy") or what.... I guess nothing works too well in this country, except for carnival...  I, myself, took painkillers here that never worked, while in the USA they do the job. The bunny is a warrior though, and I won't give up on him.


----------



## Maureen Las (Jan 20, 2010)

*hotmaildeal wrote: *


> That's what I've been giving to my bunny - Simethicone (only). I don't know if the medicine itself doesn't work (like our vets, unable to even diagnose a bunny, saying they're "savvy") or what.... I guess nothing works too well in this country, except for carnival...  I, myself, took painkillers here that never worked, while in the USA they do the job. The bunny is a warrior though, and I won't give up on him.


Sorry about that I didn't read the very beginning of the post


----------



## Pipp (Jan 20, 2010)

If you have a massage tool or an electric toothbrush, that may help break up the gas bubble. Or put him on top of a running dryer or take him for a car ride. 

Mild exercise will help. And the massage may be helping, it could be worse without it. 

How much Simethicone are you giving him? You can't give it to him often, but you can give him a lot every hour for three or four hours -- a good 2 CCs of the baby stuff (which is usually a 40 mg suspension) or a crushed adult tablet (60 to 120). 

After three or four doses, you have to stop for eight hours or so. 


sas :clover:


----------



## MILU (Jan 20, 2010)

No worries Angieluv! BTW, I LOVE WI!! 

I was giving 4-7 drops every 8 hs or so, I've been doing this for sort of 5 days then give him some like once a day. I've never yet seen my bunny looking relieved after simethicone, or without the gas noise in his belly. It's constantly there. Maybe our simethicone doesn't work - or I'm not giving enough?

I'm not good with CCs.. how many drops do you think that would be? Or is it something like a tablespoon?

I have an electric toothbrush, what should I do with it? 

Can't thank you all enough!!!


----------



## Maureen Las (Jan 21, 2010)

There are approx 20 drops per ml although upon looking this up I realize that this subject is complicated. 

I am wondering if your bun is getting any antibiotics yet. To be honestif his abscess is left untreated this is going to be a losing battle


----------



## Pipp (Jan 21, 2010)

For pain relief, definitely use an Ibuprofen-based drug (like Meloxicam) and not the Dipyrone, which can help with the pain but make the infection worse. (Studies on rabbits have proved that). I'm sure they sell Ibuprofen in Brazil if not Meloxicam and your vet should have dosing info, but I don't know the suspension but I would use .4 cc's of Meloxicam on a 5 lb bunny I think, not sure how many drops that is. And if I'm using an Ibuprofen-based drug, I use a quarter of a tab of Children's Motrin, not sure what you have that's the equivalent. 

Is your bunny on the Azithromycin already? I do hope so! I'm also recommending the injected penicillin/oral azithromycin combo. 

I don't know about the Plasil, it appears to be a combination of a gut motility drug and gas relief? Was he feeling better after the Plasil or the Dipyrone? If it was the Dipyrone, switching to Ibuprofen will be the same. If it was the Plasil, maybe it's a good thing, but really not sure about that one! 

Are you giving him simethicone or dimeticone? Simethicone is activated dimethicone and I have no idea if dimethicone works, I just know Simethicone does. It doesn't eliminate the gas, it breaks up the bubbles so they're easier to pass. You have to give rabbits large doses of Simethicone -- probably a teaspoon to a tablespoon full if its a 40 mg suspension. Some kinds will be every hour for three hours, others will be once every eight hours.

The electric toothbush will help break up the bubbles just by running it over his abdomen in a circular motion. The massages should be long -- I've done them for an hour. 

Camomile tea is fine, you may want to mix it up with some pellets and see if he'll eat that. 

Not sure about the other things suggested though. 

How is he doing? 


sas ray:


----------



## MILU (Jan 21, 2010)

No antibiotics yet - our vets know nothing about them and refuse to give them! 

My bunny had Plasil only once, it made him eat but felt crappy afterwards.. Randy (from this forum) prescribed Metacam, which we have, but no vets here will give it to my bunny, saying it will make gas worse, it's so frustrating!! 

The bunny is "ok", I worry mostly about his refusal to eat his food and decreased quantity of "stuff" produced. The only thing he wants is.. paper..!! I don't want to let him eat it, I don't think it's a good idea - although it'd be something "solid" going to his belly? :O 
And he keeps moving his mouth, like "chewing", but no food in it. Maybe 'cause it hurtsâ¦? 

His food has been basically liquid, and about 2 bites of fruits and alfalfa daily  He can still play, though. I guess anyone hearing a bunny won't eat for almost 2 weeks would think he's not alive anymore. Maybe all the love we give him has to do with it. He knows I'm trying HARD to find a solution. I won't give him to any vet here who can barely speak their mother tongue - all I found so far!!!! :O
When I ask about dental procedures, they say it's risky and my bunny may die.. I'm looking for someone who does this procedure in RABBITS and not only other bigger animals. Also I take account of how many pets I ask about and died. Lots.
I'm praying I find someone skilled here and thank you all for your help. Maybe my bunny wouldn't be here now if it wasn't for you!


----------



## Pipp (Jan 21, 2010)

Are you force feeding? I'm sure this has been covered, but if all you have is mushed up pellets and tea or water, give that to him two or three times a day with a big feeding syringe if he won't eat it out of the bowl. You really have to soak it well. 

You can also put his favorite veggies in a blender. I'm sure he's hungry. Once he eats something, you can give him even store-bought Ibuprofen, the pain killer.

I think the Plasil may have Simethicone in it and it helped the gas pain, but then he re-bloated. If he ate after the Plasil and its all the Vet will give you, I'd revisit that. 

Check this link, Dana Krempels is very knowledgeable. This rabbit is in Italy, but maybe you have those drugs? You'll find elsewhere that she also recommends the penicillin shots.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Rabbits-703/2008/4/rabbit-teeth-extraction-1.htm

There's no one magic drug, you need a steady minimal regime of feeding, hydration, pain control, gas control, pro-biotics and antibiotics. 

A vet specializing in dental on other animals is better than no vet at all. They have the equipment, they can always research online and/or consult with a rabbit specialist on the phone or online.

Let him chew on a cardboard box if he wants to. He won't be able to swallow much of it but it will keep him busy and chewing. Cut a hole in it, make a bunny 'fort'. If he's like my guys, he'll want to 'renovate'. 


sas :clover:


----------



## MILU (Jan 21, 2010)

Wow, nice suggestions!! haha, a fort...

Yes, I've been force feeding like you said. So I can give him ibuprofen? Orally? How much? I thought the only way for pain killers to be given to a bunny was injectable. 
I'm "dumping" my vets. Yesterday I went there, they never say anything at all and now started doing nothing at all (even less than before), and I tell them about the indications I get here on the forum and they say "ok" but do NOTHING. Yesterday they made us wait a long time to send us back home. It's clear they don't care. Plus, almost all pets they "treated" die. I'll visit another place today. That's what I've been doing and will do until I find a solution....


----------



## MILU (Jan 21, 2010)




----------



## MILU (Jan 21, 2010)

The probiotics I bought contain lactose (150 mg, same much as lactobacillus casei - 150 mg) - is it ok if I give it to my bunny? I was told not to give anything with milk. Is Lactose the same thing? Is it safe?

I found a place to treat my bunny's teeth. They don't treat or check ANYTHING ELSE though, only teeth, and ONLY UNDER ANESTHESIA, i.e.: they'll put my bunny under anesthesia WITHOUT KNOWING HIS GENERAL CONDITION. And if something goes wrong, they won't take care of him, 'cause they only do the dental work.

Do you think I should have this procedure done tomorrow or wait until their next availability (Mon or Tue), so that I'll have TIME to administer the probiotics and TRY to get my bunny eating again before the procedure? 

Nothing here is done properly.. so I'd at least spend 3 more days with my "bun" before..who knows what happens...
I'll follow whatever you say though. The clinic will close soon and I'll have to call them to say when I want to have the procedure done. TOUGH decision!!!! 

Suggestions?


----------



## pla725 (Jan 21, 2010)

I would be hesitant to have it done without having a rabbit savvy vet on hand. Perhaps your vet can supervise/monitor the anesthesia. I would talk to your vet first.


----------



## MILU (Jan 21, 2010)

Darn.. they'll only have availability for tomorrow or THURSDAY of the next week... please pray for my bunny, he'll be in the procedure TOMORROW. 

And please let me know if the lactose in the probiotics is ok or not.. 

THANKS!!


----------



## pla725 (Jan 21, 2010)

I would still talk to your vet. Perhaps they can offer some information to the clinic. Good luck.


----------



## Maureen Las (Jan 21, 2010)

This rabbit needs to be on antibiotics probably before and after any procedure ...

never heard of dentistry without thought :?

You are in a predicament ; I almost don't know what to tell you to do...


----------



## Maureen Las (Jan 21, 2010)

a probiotic with lactobacillus casei is fine


----------



## MILU (Jan 21, 2010)

** my vet's opinion is the same: operating the bunny without knowing his general condition. I'm in Brazil and we don't have savvy vets here. The clinic of this "general" vet I took my bunny to until yesterday happens to have basically all pets I asked about dying, and today this dental vet had pets leaving the place alive... that's why I chose them to do the procedure (whatever it is, no one knows). To make things better Monday is a holiday... hopefully everything will be alright! I've been searching vets for almost 2 weeks and this is all I found. GOOD LUCK to my bunny!!

Thanks for all the suggestions!

** Thanks angieluv - yes, the probiotics has casei, and also lactose - is this lactose safe for the bunny?


----------



## Maureen Las (Jan 21, 2010)

Lactose is a milk sugar which is not ideal for a bun but in your position i would give this anyway as it is the best that you can get and will probably help anyway. lactobacillus casei is what you want and this product contains it.


----------



## MILU (Jan 21, 2010)

Thank you so much!! :hug:
I'll give it to my bunny right now and keep praying for the best tomorrow...


----------



## Maureen Las (Jan 21, 2010)

ray:ray:
Did the dentist facility say that they know specifically how to do dental procedures on a rabbit as the anesthesia is different for rabbits than for dogs , cats etc. ??


----------



## Pipp (Jan 21, 2010)

I gather the dental place has seen and understands the xrays? 


sas :?


----------



## MILU (Jan 21, 2010)

Angieluv: they said something about having my bunny breathing the anesthesy, which is a different procedure from cats and dogs. hopefully they'll know what they're doing. At least the dogs I saw today were operated this morning and left well, all alive - different from the "best" vet of the country (that I was seeing), where all died.

Pipp: No, they don't seem to know what's in the x-ray as well!! That's asking too much here. They said they'll sedate my bunny and take a look at his mouth to see if there are spurs, and do what else they think needs to be done. I searched mostly all vets in this city, and these are what I found. It's a hard decision, but there's nothing better and my bunny needs to be treated. I'm hoping for the best, believing in miracles... it is a miracle that he hasn't eaten real food for 2 weeks and is still alive... so maybe another one will happen and he'll be ok after the procedure tomorrow. Hopefully those people will give him the antibiotic shot too. They didn't tell us much about the procedure. It's gonna be "wait and see" - like everything here...

Thanks so much for the support!!! You're ALL AWESOME!!!!!


----------



## MILU (Jan 21, 2010)

BTW: probiotics rule!!!! I wish I had found them before!! I gave them to my bunny this afternoon and now, at night, he's eaten some and produced bunny "stuff" like I haven't seen in many days!!! Not big quantity, but more and "better" than what was produced before. 

I just hope my bunny comes out of the procedure alive tomorrow. The probiotics will help him recover fast. You all rule, thanks for all the posts!


----------



## Pipp (Jan 21, 2010)

hotmaildeal wrote:


> They said they'll sedate my bunny and take a look at his mouth to see if there are spurs, and do what else they think needs to be done.



This sounds promising! The spurs may well be in most pressing initial problem, although at 5 years old with no spurs history, there's likely to be more to it that that, tooth roots are more likely the culprit. 

If they see that the nodule on his chin and/or the molar roots are abscessed, the proper online research should show them the wisdom of injected penicillin combined with an oral antibiotic. PenG or Convenia (the latter needs to be given more frequently to rabbits than cats and dogs, every week or so) and something like Zithromax or Chloramphenicol Palmitate. 

Its crucial to check the most recent studies and recommendations, though. A few years ago antibiotic beads were the promising treatment, but they didn't really pan out all that well. Prior to that, it was surgery or nothing. 

Pretty much all the up-to-date rabbit 'experts' recommend that protocol now. 

Zithromax alone will probably do wonders. If your vet isn't comfortable hanging the decision on a bunch of loonies on one forum, try checking out the huge and awesome UK forum, Rabbits United/RabbitsRehome and search Zithromax on there. Entirely different set of members and experts. 

http://forums.rabbitrehome.org.uk/index.php

sas


----------



## MILU (Jan 22, 2010)

You said it all, Pipp!!!! I agree with you 100%, and when I posted here I also tried an UK forum, I guess it's the one you mentioned, but I'm following this one more. 

Everybody in DECENT countries agrees with the antibiotic combo - except for "vets" here (more than one)!!! 
I don't know what I can do to convince these people how back in the past they are. Then they pretend to be ok, like, "I'll do it if you REALLY want", then never give ANY answers or treatment anymore. 

They NEVER answered when I asked what form of penicillin is available for animals in this country. Maybe they don't even know. Never prescribed anything AT ALL for my bunny, or gave a diagnostic!! What a shame. Kill pets. I wish you guys came here to teach these dumb "vets" here all your knowledge. Our vets NEVER mentioned probiotics (!), and these made my bunny almost brand new again - I learned about them HERE! I wonder after the antibiotic, how good he'll be! How I wish you were here!!!!!

For now I'll do what I have at hand for the spurs, then I'll surely keep on trying to find someone who'll give him the antibiotics. My family is pressuring me too, saying the bunny won't stand much longer like this... so we'll do at least the spurs tomorrow. I, myself, am not sure if I'd do it so soon... but I agree the bunny can't wait too much.

It took some time to find the probiotics or this pet dentist, I may take some more days or even weeks to find someone else who'll give him the antibiotics, but I'll keep trying and won't give up!

I guess tomorrow they'll rasp the spurs and give my bunny assistance for hydration and pain management.. then I may ask them again for the antibiotics  

I'll print the forum posts and take them with me. I hope they see the light of reason.

Thanks for all and I'l keep you updated about my bunny


----------



## MILU (Jan 22, 2010)

Oops - I keep calling you "Pipp" although you sign Sas.. sorry!!


----------



## pla725 (Jan 22, 2010)

Good luck. Hope everything works out for you and your bun. I will keep you both in my thoughts today.


----------



## MILU (Jan 22, 2010)

I'm back home with my bunny, ALIVE!!! 

I'm so happy he didn't die. The pet dentists gave me pics of my bunny's mouth, he had 4 teeth that were not ok - 2 spurs and 2 elongated. NO extraction done -I wouldn't let it be done anyway, even if they wanted.

I'll post the pics they took of inside my bunny's mouth when I can, in case you want to see them.

The guys who did the procedure don't talk much (almost not at all), don't let us ask much either... I asked about the antibiotic combo and - wow - they KNOW about it!!!! I was SO HAPPY!! finally found people who know something, although they don't talk much... the problem is: they told me THEY saw no abscess, therefore, NO combo for my bunny. END of the conversation. 

I WILL KEEP ON LOOKING for someone willing to treat the abscess. I believe in everybody from this forum and will do what you said. I praise your knowledge and above everything, I THANK YOU for all the support and help! If it wasn't for you, I'd have believed the other vet who said the problem isn't dental and my bunny would die!

** My bunny is already eating and jumping!


----------



## pla725 (Jan 22, 2010)

Glad everything went well. I would still insist on the meds and something for pain as well. Call them back. Give them some literature about why you are asking for the meds. Or talk to your vet again.


----------



## MILU (Jan 22, 2010)

People are so stubborn here.. I'd rather go look for someone else who seems to be more open-minded. There must be SOMEONE - like there seemed not to be a better place like the vet I was seeing before and yesterday I found this place where my bunny had the procedure done. Gotta keep the faith! 
Thanks!


----------



## tonyshuman (Jan 22, 2010)

So, they filed down his teeth?

Why did they say there was no infection? 

I'm glad he's eating again, sorry I wasn't able to help yesterday--a bit of an emotional day for me because of the poor health of my elderly hamster.


----------



## Maureen Las (Jan 22, 2010)

OMG I am so happy that he came through it.I did not have high hopes.

\The dual penicillin drug is sold in the US in farm stores. ithas to be refrigierated. it has many names here like Combi -pen, Dura Pen, Duopen ,Twin pen etc and on the back of the vial you will find that it has 150,000 u of procaine G penicillin and 150,000 u of Benzathine g penicillin per ml. The procaine is fast acting and the benzathine is longer acting. The injections are done subqutaneously (under the skin )and the drug should be diluted with a solution so that sterile abscesses won't form at the sites of injection 

There must be farm stores in Brazil or veterinary supply places. This drug is primarily marketed for cattle. 

In my town in Wi the vets are not familar with it (and with Randy's guidance) I have bought the drug from tractor supply, (0ver the counter)bought syringes and needles on-line and also a diluent and treated my own rabbits. 

I think that it must be available for livestock over there; if you can find it we can help you learn how to give it. 

if you combine that drug with the azithromycin that one vet said that he had in stock you have a very (preferable) treatment for abscesses. and infections. 
I sure hope that he improves... 

So very happy that he made it....:hug:


----------



## Maureen Las (Jan 22, 2010)

*tonyshuman wrote: *


> So, they filed down his teeth?
> 
> Why did they say there was no infection?
> 
> I'm glad he's eating again, sorry I wasn't able to help yesterday--a bit of an emotional day for me because of the poor health of my elderly hamster.


Sorry about your hamster Claire


----------



## pla725 (Jan 22, 2010)

I posted some information in the vet listing section. Might help.


----------



## MILU (Jan 23, 2010)

Now I don't know if this is normal because of the anesthesia, but my bunny hasn't yet produced even 01 bunny "stuff" (feces)!! I haven't see him peeing as well. 

I gave him some liquid today, and he ate, too. Not too much, but enough for producing "SOMETHING" at least. I gave him probiotics some hours ago and still he produced no "bunny stuff".

The last time he did it was 20 hours ago, before the surgery. Now he looks VERY tired. It doesn't look like he'll do his "stuff" soon, not before a good rest err least?
Maybe he has to sleep more? I can tell the anesthesia effect is not yet completely gone. He can't calculate movements too well, he's still dizzy.

Is there anything, except the probiotics, that could help him go potty?

He produced lots of "stuff" last night (compared to the nights before) after I gave him the probiotics. I wonder why nothing now. 

My bunny seems to be under the "Jekyll and Hyde effect". He arrived here dizzy and wobbly (still is a little), some minutes later was eating and happy, then laid down quiet and "introspective", then happy, then not too friendly anymoreâ¦ all changes all of a sudden, with the bad (or quiet) mood predominating.

I know my bunny won't be perfect today, but as he was great for some minutes I thought he was sort of ok.

I just want to know when he'll do his bunny stuff, or if it's normal not to go potty for this long. I'm still worried despite the fact he came out of the clinic aliveâ¦


----------



## Pipp (Jan 23, 2010)

He was probably given a post surgery pain med, and/or the anesthetic had pain med properties, and now its worn off and he's not feeling so good. 

I've given you the protocol numerous times already -- 'force' feeding a pellet slurry (via syringe if he won't eat it out of the bowl) with the probiotic, keep him drinking, after he eats and drinks give him a little Ibuprofen, and keep him warm.

He has to have something in his system. 

Does he have lumps on his jaw that have been getting bigger? If they don't think the tooth root is abscessed, he should recover, but I really hope they looked at the x-rays or took their own. 


sas :clover:


----------



## MILU (Jan 23, 2010)

There's no more need for force feeding. He's been eating by his own will since after the procedure last morning, and this morning, again, ate and drank water without being forced, and I gave him the probiotics and did what you said. His general state is good, I jut don't see his droppings and this is bugging me.. 
He's getting food "in" but not "out". Maybe it's "normal" for now and I don't know..? 

The thing my bunny has under the chin is almost undetectable, but I noticed something there. They looked at the x-rays, don't ask me if they understand it. I'll keep looking for someone who can give him the antibiotic combo - or think of doing it myself if I find the drugs.


----------



## Pipp (Jan 23, 2010)

Just eating a few mouthfuls here and there isn't really enough, but if he's doing more than that, just hold steady, the rest will come! 

Exercise and tummy massages will still help, but lots of fiber and fluids is still the best thing. 

Has he perked up again? Its not a painful procedure other than he probably has a very sore mouth from having it cranked open with a brace, unless he does have a tooth root abscess and the procedure caused more pain. 

But if the vet saw the x-rays and got a good look at his teeth and jaw and saw no signs of an infection, I'm really not sure I'd give him a strong regiment of antibiotics. I could do more harm than good. You have the digital x-rays, I'd get a second opinion. 

You can email my vet, Joseph Martinez, at Greencrossvet @ yahoo.ca, explain where you are and what the situation is, and that somebody on Rabbits Online suggested that you contact him, and ask if you can email them for him to look at. 

I'm sure he'll do that for you. Just let him know the molar spurs were filed and ask if he thinks there might be infection and if the bunny should be on antibiotics.



sas :clover:


----------



## Maureen Las (Jan 23, 2010)

*Pipp wrote: *


> Just eating a few mouthfuls here and there isn't really enough, but if he's doing more than that, just hold steady, the rest will come!
> 
> Exercise and tummy massages will still help, but lots of fiber and fluids is still the best thing.
> 
> ...



I really trust Randy's read on the x-ray butI do think it would be great to get a 2nd opinion on this. It really would be great if Dr Martinez could read the xrays also. 

Go for it!


----------



## tonyshuman (Jan 23, 2010)

Yes, that would be good. I agree too that it sounds like he's in pain--the episodes of acting strange coming and going sounds like pain. Some ibuprofen would help. Here's a dosage calculator.

http://homepage.mac.com/mattocks/morfz/rx/drugcalc.html


----------



## MILU (Jan 23, 2010)

Wow, thanks!!! I do trust what Randy said and still want my bunny to have the antibiotic shots, but if you all now suggest dr. Martinez, I'll contact him - thank you! 

You were right about the droppings. They came out! 

My bun eats and drinks water on his own will but is still like Jekyll and Hyde (perhaps 'cause of the bloating? Even with the simethicone and probiotics, he's still bloated - although less than before). 
One more funny thing I noticed: I heard a funny noise when he chews (not from food). I wonder what the heck now... 
I think it may be teeth gritting each other?? 

Btw - do you recommend washing his teeth with peroxide?


----------



## Pipp (Jan 23, 2010)

I never rely on any one source no matter how much faith I have in them. When you have a rabbit-savvy non-Vet reading x-rays on a small message board vs: several non-rabbit-savvy-but-dental-savvy Vets presumably reading full size x-rays on a backlit screen and physically examining the rabbit under anesthetic, and they disagree, it's time to get a third opinion.

What kind of a noise is he making? Do you know the difference between the pain grinding (usually a loud clicking noise) and pleasure 'tooth purrs' with your rabbit? If he's making a different noise altogether, he could just be feeling 'weird' and moving his mouth around because its feeling different to him. 

The key might be his reaction to chewing. Is he chewing with gusto now when before he was chewing tentatively? Was he picking up some food and dropping it before? Is he doing that now? 

A lot of the digestion issues are related to the recent lack of a full diet -- it takes a while to get back on track -- but also to how they chew. I've come to the conclusion via research and experience that how they chew greatly effects the GI tract an its output. 

My dwarf has genetically bad teeth and while I can control her molar spurs with diet, and I watch her eat every bit of a salad twice as big as she is, her poops remain tiny, misshapen little things. I've stopped worrying about them, she's otherwise very healthy, and what they lack in size she makes up for in volume. 


sas :rabbithop


----------



## MILU (Jan 24, 2010)

hi Sas and everybody

Thanks a lot for your input! None of our vets saw the x-rays on a backlit screen - I was given the x-rays on a CD. The vet who asked them doesn't even have a copy, he asked me to send them to him by email (and never replied any of the 3 I sent). One more reason why I dumped the "best" vet here. 

About the noise when chewing, it was something different from all I heard before. Not a purr I'm sure, and it didn't sound like the pain noise. I haven't heard it anymore though. Weird bunny!! 

No more droppings again. I'm worried, 'cause he eats enough. I don't know if, pushing more food into him, i'll damage his tummy..?
I'm still giving him juice, water, probiotics, etc., besides the food and water he has by himself. He did his "stuff" only once since Thursday, and it was 1 lil cluster and 2 diarrheal watery stuff only.

The funny thing is that, since before the procedure, he changed his preferred food from leaves and sunflower seeds to tree branches. He's been eating mostly mango tree branches, hay, mango leaves (and paper!!). He refuses his pellets and doesn't want his favorite leaves much. He refuses sunflower seeds which is a BIG indication that something's wrong with him!

My 2 ways of testing if he's ok are:

1- if he doesn't lick me, he's not ok (he's been doing this after the surgery, moderately)

2- if he refuses sunflower seeds, then he's DEFINITELY NOT OK â¦ he loves them! He used to bite all the 3 ones I'd give him at once, chewed quickly and ran after me asking for more. Now he doesn't want even one, and when he chews anything, it takes him forever.. He's been a little better but not 100%.
He drops food from his mouth when eating. I guess he's not noticing it, it's not a refusal case like before - I guess. Also, he doesn't seem to move his back legs and calculate his jumps too well. Is it possible that some of the anesthesia is still working?

My bunny produced better droppings the 1st time I gave him the probiotics (1 day before surgery - Thursday), now, the only time I saw them, they were all messy againâ¦. 

I wrote to the email address you gave me, thank you SO MUCH!!

How interesting about your dwarf. I'm sure she's very healthy. Like my bunny before, she eats a lot. How sweet!!! Give her a kiss for me. 
et::bunny19:


----------



## MILU (Jan 24, 2010)

As I promised, here's what my bunny's dentist gave me with images of his teeth - above you have them before, and below you have the same area after the procedure. Is it my impression or, in the last images (at your right side) the 1st upper teeth we see are still a little bit long and sharp? That last pic shows the back teeth elongated, those were filed.







I can see his upper gums sort of bleeding after the procedure.. oh, my poor bunny... 
:sigh:


----------



## Maureen Las (Jan 24, 2010)

The images really show his teeth were sharp and in need of filing; from my inexperienced eye they look good now. 
I would guess that the anesthesia is still affecting him ..probably not the same thing that we use here. 
Were you able to give him ibuprofen for pain. ?

When a rabbit eats paper it often suggests the rabbit is attempting to get fiber; this is a frequent occurence of rabbit in stasis. 

he sounds like he is having difficulty getting used to his normal set of teeth and recovering rom the anesthesia ..unless there is a jaw abscess present that is painful 

refusing his favorite food may be a result of the procedure and not necessarily that he is very sick. 

My rabbit Beau, has his teeth done every few months and has had many molar extractions and also has periodontal disease. 

After his procedures he often refuses a favorite food or drink which I have chalked up to some "different' way his mouth feels after the procedure. 

Tell me exactly what he is eating now and also what you have available to feed him 

Are you syringing food at all/ ?


you possibly could wet his pellets down into a gruel and syringe him some of it
also use a food processor tomix up veggies etc. ...

Does he appear inactive and lethargic or does he seem fairly normal ?


----------



## MILU (Jan 24, 2010)

He seems fairly normal, but too quiet and always at his home, doesn't want to come out very often. Seems a little mad or in pain.

He wants to eat paper all the time, and I saw him not only once attempting to eat walls (made of bricks and cement), and even licking and trying to bite my bed, made of iron!! 

Here we have alfafa hay, carrots, carrot leaves, broccoli, something we call "catalonia" (my bunny's ex-favorite), sunflower seeds ("favoritest" treats), cauliflower leaves, fruits, etc. 
I gave him carrot and papaya juice yesterday and today, along with water+ probiotics and simethicone. 
He's been eating mango leaves and branches (from a mango tree - his favorite now), alfafa hay, and a little bit of catalonia, like, half a leave, only the hardest part of it. Not his favorite anymore.He also eats 1 bite of banana and apple a day. 

For some reason, he's only wanted to eat hard things. 

I once gave him pain medicine but I'm afraid maybe they can stop/block his tummy activity even more? 

If I process food and grind it thin, make little balls and put them in his mouth, he won't want them. He wants to chew and to eat, I can tell he's eager for something specific and gets disappointed when I show up with the options we have here. He wants hard stuff, but not the wood I have here as well. I haven't figured out WHAT he wants. Maybe paper!! Darn! 

:cooking:


----------



## MILU (Jan 24, 2010)

I really worry about the absence of his droppings... (we never think we'll say this and want them around until they're not there anymore.. hehe)


----------



## Maureen Las (Jan 24, 2010)

it sounds like you are keeping him hydrated which is good;

if you are giving simethicone constantly then I would stop doing that as it can be constipating. 
the slow downof the gut could be a result of the anesthesia and the general stress from the procedure. 

if he is eating any food ( hard or soft) then that is good 
I sometimes use pure fresh pineapple juice( has to be fresh)when my buns are not pooping ...giving a few ccs a few times daily. 
this is a good option , however, if he has any sores in his mouth it would burn them so maybe not ...


----------



## MILU (Jan 25, 2010)

Thanks, Angieluv! I stopped giving him the simethicone. I suspect that the anesthesia may have to do with worsening his GI probs too.. I was told that pineapple juice is good, but also that it will make him produce more gas. Whatever is good for one thing seems to be bad for another.. onder: couldn't life be easier? 

It's been days since the last time he went potty.. he still eats some, though.

Sas: 

Here's what Dr. Martinez said: 
"hi vivian,sorry(or not) i cant see an abscess,the tooth with the spur isnt the cause of anorexia in my opinion,there maybe a Disbiosis, kind of maldigestion and antibiotics may aggravate the condition,we use Ovol to get the gas out,the one used on infants for the same purpose,also Acidophilus 1 capsule twice daily and force feeding,get sq fluids from vet,if you can do a blood and urine tests would be nice,i give also injections of vit B12.

Dr.Joseph Martinez ,DVM
. VETERINARIAN"

Well, that makes things easier (I guess) for me, as I never found anyone who could give my bunny the antibiotics. 
I've been doing all Dr. martinez recommended, but we don't have acidophilus except for the liquid form with milk.. but I guess the problem now is much simpler than we thought. Still I'm worried my bunny hasn't gone potty since Sat. morning.
Lots of people told me it's the anesthesia, that it makes even people constipated for some days. 
:dunno


----------



## tonyshuman (Jan 25, 2010)

I would think that the spur and anesthesia together could cause some GI issues. Not eating due to pain, and then the anesthesia itself can introduce a bit of gas into the GI tract--these could be causing it.

I thought you had the acidophilus as a probiotic? It was some other probiotic? Sometimes you can find acidophilus capsules at health food stores, as a human supplement.

http://www.mothernature.com/shop/detail.cfm/sku/40120

Vitamin B12 shots can stimulate the appetite, but a vet must give them.


----------



## MILU (Jan 26, 2010)

YEP, whoever guessed spurs + anesthesia made my bunny's tummy work out of pace - you're so right! 

Today he finally made his "stuff" in a reasonable quantity, ate and played, so I can say he's back to normal. I'm SO HAPPY!! 
He's smart, hungry and going potty again. 
I was concerned about finding someone to give him the combo shots, but I guess now, after having also the opinion of a savvy vet like dr. Martinez in Canada, I can relax about that.. ? 
So it seems that there are no more issues anymore!!

I'M VERY THANKFUL TO ALL OF YOU HERE, YOU ALL HELPED ME SAVING A LIFE THAT COULD HAVE PERISHED OTHERWISE. YOUR INSTRUCTIONS AND SUPPORT WERE VITAL FOR MY BUNNY. WE THANK YOU AND APPRECIATE! 

Hard to believe I was even thinking there was no way out for my bun, thought of euthanasia and now he's happy like a baby again. 

THANKS!! YOU'RE ALL HEROES!


----------



## Maureen Las (Jan 26, 2010)

I'm so glad that he's better


----------



## NorthernAutumn (Jan 27, 2010)

I've been reading this thread since the beginning... and am super impressed with the incredible job you have done for your bunny, Vivian!
:highfive:
You are one remarkable lady.. such tenacity! He's one lucky boy to have such a loving bun mom like you:hug:.


As for all the infirmary mods, 
:great::great::great::great:

You never fail to amaze!


----------



## MILU (Jan 27, 2010)

I'm glad he's better too!
Thanks!!! 
:blushan:

I did what I could, and would do more if needed. Our pets feel and know when we love them. I'm sure that made a difference when he went to surgery weak, after +2 weekes without eating solid foods!! 
But my efforts wouldn't have been enough if I hadn't met such wonderful people here. 
** what's "infirmary mods"? (English isn't my 1st language, as you can see.. hehe)
:embarrassed:


----------



## aurora369 (Jan 27, 2010)

Infirmary is kind of like another name for hospital, or place for the sick. 

Mod is short for moderator, which is a person that keeps the peace, gets people to talk through problems, makes sure that rules or guidelines are followed. 

I am also very happy to see your little bunny feeling better. You should start a blog for him and post some pictures and stories of him. You could do this here if you wanted:
http://rabbitsonline.net/view_forum.php?id=6

-Dawn


----------



## MILU (Jan 31, 2010)

Thanks, I'll try! I still haven't found out how to put a pic of my bunny on my profile (I see everybody has pics of their bunnies next to your profile names)... hehe


----------



## Maureen Las (Jan 31, 2010)

Go to the top of the page where there are yellow words printed in a row right under the bunny banner. 
Click on menu and then click on my account 

When you get to my account you will see a green list on the left hand side of the page . click on avatar and there will be directions on how to post a picture.


----------



## MILU (Feb 2, 2010)

Yeah, it worked!! Thanks again!!!


----------

