# Nala and Gaz



## Imbrium

I haven't started a blog before this for a couple reasons... one, "blog" has always been a bit of a dirty word in my mind and I've always mocked them. the internet doesn't care what you ate for breakfast or how good your nap was, people . I'm coming around on them as far as RO is concerned, though, since we're actually a tight little community where we all know each other and therefore have a reason to care what's going on with the day-to-day lives of our bunnies.

the other reason I never started one is that I never felt I had much to put in one - they eat, poop, sleep, groom, play and look cute every day; hardly anything news-worthy, lol. that seems to be changing, though, as I've had a drama-filled week with the bunnies and I'm sensing a fair amount more to come .

this week's drama is spread out across a variety of threads:
http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=76236&forum_id=1 - announcement that it was spay-day
http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=76266&forum_id=16 - started a new topic in the infirmary for some quick answers to post-op questions... initially, how to safely get them out of their carrier when my common sense took a break (forgot that since it's a NIC carrier, I could just cut the side open) and then I hi-jacked my own thread when I realized they weren't really eating and that Nala was licking her incision a ton.
http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=76342&forum_id=48 - Nala started her first molt and has lost like half her mane in the last three days, which significantly added to my confusion as to whether or not a fight had taken place.
http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=76324&forum_id=48 - my "did they or didn't they" ordeal trying to figure out if they were fighting or rough-housing

to continue where I left off in that last thread, I've changed my mind yet again as to what the heck is going on with those two.

I had them out to play a little while ago in a small area outside their temp cages and witnessed yet another altercation. it started with Nala approaching Gazzles from the rear (kinda looked like a butt-sniffing move) - no nipping or lunging, just stepped up to her/gently touched her rear. Gaz freaked out like she was under attack and took off running, making a little bit of noise in the process and even running face-first into the NIC wall of her (closed) temp cage. I grabbed her as quickly as I could and held her for a few minutes, petting her and talking softly to calm her down (and asking her what was wrong, as I was baffled). she seemed genuinely afraid of Nala for a moment there :S. Nala just sat there looking confused.

it was the first time I'd witnessed a run/chase event where I wasn't on the opposite side of the room. seeing it up-close showed me that I was wrong on BOTH previous guesses (explains why I could never seem to figure it out) - they're not fighting AND they're not playing. Gaz was definitely upset and Nala was definitely NOT being aggressive.

after I had Gazzles calmed down, I set her on the floor nose-to-nose with Nala while petting her softly and started petting Nala at the same time so that Nala would stay put and not try to approach Gaz. they both sat totally still, just looking at each other while I pet them. Gaz seemed perfectly calm at this time. wanting to end things on a good note, I pet them for a few minutes and then ushered Nala back into her cage and locked the door.

Gaz, who normally shies away from attempts at petting her, proceeded to let me lie down next to her and pet her for a good 15 minutes or so.

I have NO idea what's upsetting my little girl so much or why she suddenly seems afraid of Nala. I've never seen humping behavior in rabbits, so I don't know if maybe Nala was about to try something and Gaz knew it but I didn't? or maybe when they weren't feeling great that second day and I'd just put them back together, Nala nipped her once and she's afraid of it happening again (though I can't find any spots where it seems like she's been bitten)?

I'm really at a loss here. I'm not even sure what to do about trying to re-bond them, as the articles I've read discuss aggression as a potential response... but not fear. they were SO snuggly and cuddly from 7-8 weeks old right up until spay day and now I can't give them access to each other for even a few minutes without Gazzles wigging out and running around in fear . I have one bunny that's terrified of the other getting close to her and another bunny that's baffled because she still thinks they're bonded... WTF?

my neighbor is out of town right now but will be back sometime today - I'm going to ask her if she'll drive us around for a little bit tonight or tomorrow so I can sit in the back seat with the bunnies in hopes of jump-starting the re-bonding process.


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## JBun

Maybe Gaz has PTSD from the spay. Can rabbits get PTSD? :?


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## Imbrium

here's an idea of what's happening... as you can see, Nala merely approached Gaz without even touching her and Gaz thumped and took of running 

[flash=425,344]http://www.youtube.com/v/3tZQ8yJK4sk&hl=en&fs=1[/flash]

I'm having second thoughts about trying to take them on a car trip... I think I may just keep them 100% separate for at least a week or two and see if I can't reset things. it could be there was one bad fight that Gazzles needs to forget about or maybe someone has hormones after all, but either way I think some time apart is needed to get them back on track.


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## whitelop

Aww poor Gaz! She looks terrified. I wonder what happened to make her so scared. Nala looks like she doesn't know what to think. 
Maybe they came back from the vet smelling different and it scared Gaz. Like maybe whoever handled Nala wore a fragrance that Gaz finds offensive. 
I hope everything gets back to normal soon!


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## agnesthelion

I'm so glad you started a blog! I will definetly follow  I actually have never done a blog before either but for some reason felt comfortable enough here to do so! I know that some of my entries are boring, but I realized I'm doing a blog for me too. If others want to enjoy, that is fantastic, but I've enjoyed writing about my bunny journey 

Gosh, jennifer, this is baffling me what is going on with your girls. You are right, in that video nala didn't even touch gaz.....? If it is PTSD from thenspay, you'd think it would bring her CLOSER to her friend be ause rabbits tend to lean on each other when stressed. 

I did notice that when gaz thumped and went into run mode, nala did kinda go into aggressor mode and pursued her more, did you see? I watch the dog whisperer sometimes and I find it interesting then when you first see the video of the two dogs, it seems most obvious which is the "naughty" one. But then here comes Cesar and he explains that there is much more going on behind the scenes that we don't see and it's actually opposite of what you think.

Could that be the case here? Is gaz putting off some sort of offending lingo to nala and then when nala comes towards her, gaz already knows she's been not nice to nala so she's already running and in defense mode?? I just thought it was interesting because it looked like nala was upset with gaz too, it's just gaz is the squeakier wheel so gets more attention.......

Anyway, this would be frustrating. I do think that separating is good at this point. And who knows, maybe you need to start over on neutral territory again?? Either way you'll definetly have something to blog about now!!


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## Imbrium

there was one incident where it looked like Nala was the aggressor, though not that one. in the vid I posted, Nala had a very cat-like response to Gaz running, but I don't know whether she was upset with Gaz as well or if she thought it was a bunny-500.

I'd wager to say Nala wasn't that upset, though, as she's VERY expressive - I used to joke to her that I should've named her Thumper instead, lol. if I do something Nala doesn't like, she's quick to tell me but she didn't do any thumping there. Gaz has only learned to thump in the last 2-3 weeks or so - she picked it up from Nala. Nala does sometimes nip instead of thumping, though, so perhaps she was planning a nip for Gaz. I've gotten nipped on the hand for trying to feed critical care, nipped on the butt when she'd had enough furminating for the day. her nips are so soft they don't even come close to hurting, though (at least with me). if it makes any difference in interpreting, Gaz has always been the submissive one... maybe she tried to change that at some point?

this morning, I saw that Gaz had pushed her igloo away from the shared wall of their cages and was behind it. it looked like they were snuggling through the bars.


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## Mariah

Omg, your buns are adorable! I watched the video and it looks like something happened between them to cause one to be scared of the other.
Give it some time and it will hopefully work out. Not sure if you have been following my threads on kiwi & papaya but it took me 5 months for my two to bond.


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## Imbrium

I'm just surprised at how easily the bond severed. I can't help thinking it's my fault, as they were fine until I had them separated for a day by a NIC grid barrier until I was sure they were eating - a day after I put them together again, this stuff started. I dunno if I put them back together too soon, put them in too small of a space, shouldn't have separated them in the first place or what 

I definitely need to re-do the housing arrangements, because at this point I can't be sure that sharing a wall doesn't make things worse. I'm debating whether to put one in the second level of the condo and one in the first (so they can't see each other) or to leave them both on the ground level but separate the two cages instead of having them share a wall.

I switched them to each others' cages this morning and there was a mini-tiff between the walls - gaz had her face by the bars and nala was on the other side. it looked like she was about to groom gaz, but gaz started thumping at her and spooked her off. dunno if maybe she felt like nala was in "her" cage? a few minutes later, with nala still sitting just the other side of the wall in the litter box, gaz did one of her classic dead bunny flops. I swear that bunny's acting bi-polar lately. sometimes she shuns my attention as usual, other times she actually wants me petting her (which is unusual)... sometimes she acts like she wants to be with nala but if I put them together she flips out.

I might ask to borrow my neighbor's kitchen to use as a neutral area this afternoon (plus then I'll have a second person to help me make sure there aren't any fights) and, depending how it goes, make a decision as to whether I think the bond can be repaired or not - if it doesn't look promising, I'll probably sever it completely with a full separation and give them a couple weeks to forget each other and then start from scratch like they were never bonded to begin with.


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## whitelop

Wow. That is such a difficult situation. I wish I had advice to give you, I'm not very familiar with bonding. It just really sucks that you've had them together almost their wholes lives then something happens and its almost all undone. I don't think its a lost cause or anything, but its crazy. 
I think you blogging about it though, could be a good learning experience for other people who may be go through this. 

I did have a question though, are they still on the pain relievers? 
And do pain relievers make bunnies loopy like they do with people? If they do, maybe with Gaz being on the pain meds, she doesn't feel quite herself and doesn't know how to act. That was just one of my thoughts, but I could be way out in left field with that!


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## Imbrium

I gave them metacam on day 2 and day 3 (they had the 24h shot that lasted them through the first day). after that, I felt if they were feeling good enough to roughhouse, they were feeling good enough to not need the meds so I stopped giving them and saw no signs of pain. the fighting did start while they were on painkillers, though.


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## Imbrium

good news and bad news. I had them together for a bit and they were actually snuggling in the litter box and gaz didn't seem afraid - nala even groomed her for longer than I've ever seen before! it was so sweet... until I figured out what gaz's deal is...

nala's biting her bootie!

I had some video of them, but it keeps giving me an error message when I try to take it off the camera 

they were snuggling and cute for almost 3 mins of filming (and a few minutes before that), then gaz thumped for no apparent reason and jumped up onto the igloo and nala came over and bit her bootie! I separated them and calmed them down (though gaz wouldn't come off the igloo) and then nala came up and tried to nip her butt again!

so it does look like there's potential to repair the bond without having to break it completely and start over from scratch... BUT... only if I can get nala to stop biting gaz on the butt ssd:

anyone know why nala might be acting like this with no apparent provocation?


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## Imbrium

wish us luck! getting ready to take a quick shower and then pack up the bunnies, a playpen and a veggie dinner and head on over to the neighbor's kitchen for some "neutral territory time" to see how the bunnies react.


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## lauratunes12

Maybe her butt hurt so she wanted to make sure that Gaz's did too?  

Or maybe, Nala is trying to help with Gaz's shedding problem, not realizing that it hurts.

I don't know, I'm making up things. Good luck!


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## agnesthelion

The biting of the bootie sounds like dominance/attempt to mount behavior.

Both females and males mount. It is a sign of dominance. PREmount, buns will bite and attempt to grab hold of the other bun in the rear/back

I'm willing to bet that the spay and separation threw off their hierarchy and now they are trying to sort it out again.

From what I have learned, rabbits sometimes need to just work it out. I hope the neutral territory will help. 

Let us know!!


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## Imbrium

she nipped gaz on the side once while they were at the neighbor's and the booty nipping doesn't look like pre-mount behavior, which I can now recognize >.>

when I first took them out over there and had them side by side, gaz HUMPED nala! I broke it up quickly and it happened again... after the second time I broke it up I realized I oughta just let it go for a bit, but it never happened a third time. I was very surprised to see the humping, given that gaz was willingly submissive from day 1 (plus it never occurred at home while I was watching). I told her "no wonder you're getting your booty bitten!" (though when the humping happened, nala seemed unfazed by it).

there were one or two tiny scuffles which they worked out on their own with nothing more than a "knock it off" from me (no big chase scenes this time) and there was some occasional thumping at the dog when they were done sniffing and he wasn't (the neighbors have a sweet poodle-looking mix named max who is fascinated by the bunnies).

max and nala touched noses through the pen a few times... the bunns grew up around a dog at the breeder, so they're not terribly bothered by the presence of a dog - I figured having max nearby but safely out of reach would provide a little mild stress to help with the bunny bonding. by the end of the play date, they were hopping around the kitchen together like they owned the place.

all in all, they did very well together and I may be able to put them back together sooner than anticipated 

I've got them back in their separate cages now that they're home, just because it's such a cramped space where they can't really get away from each other and I can't be there full time to monitor them (plus agitated bunny butts + water dishes = mess). I'll try letting them out in the full pen (minus upper condo levels) together tomorrow and see how they do.


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## JBun

This all must be frustrating for you, especially since they got along so well before the spay. Maybe the spay triggered a last ditch hormonal rush :? At least you know that those hormones are going to fade away, and their behavior sounds like they'll be able to sort things out between one another.


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## Imbrium

oh, they're GOING to sort it out... it's just a matter of how much of my time and sanity it takes. I'm not gonna spend the next 10 years housing two bunnies separately and no way in hell could I ever give either one of them up. the bond worked once and I'm determined to make it work again!


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## whitelop

I'm sure they're come around, maybe like someone said they're trying to figure out who is top bun again. 
I can imagine being spayed would be a serious thing, to anyone/thing. haha. You probably don't come out of that with your bearings about you. 
They might just need a little more time to remember, "hey, you're that bunny that I love!"


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## Imbrium

on a non-bunny related note, I think my raccoon must've told all his raccoon buddies about "the chick with the buffet" - I've got gravity feeders that hold a total of 4.5 lbs of cat food and they're all getting EMPTIED overnight now


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## Blue eyes

When I was working on trying to bond the trio, I did observe that it takes alot of trust for a rabbit to "allow" another one near her back end. Sapphire was fine with grooming of her head, but if one of they boys went too far to the back end, or just approached that end, she was gone. Of course, once she was bonded with Mocha, she had no worries about that anymore. It sounds like Gaz isn't liking Nala back there. 

I agree with Lisa that they are sorting out hierarchy -- again. 

Mine seemed to be continually jostling for who was going to be top bun. It seemed sorted out, and then a week later there would be a switch. That's what I thought of when you said Gaz tried to mount Nala. It sounds like they are trying to figure things out.

I've seen some also suggest keeping the bonding area quite small. And if you think that each session has increased tension, then go ahead with your idea of separating them for awhile. When I tried to bond Sapphire with Sam, I don't think I recognized that building tension as quickly as I should have.

I know you are determined to bond them. Follow your instincts and I'm sure you will end up with a pair of snuggling bunnies again.


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## Imbrium

sometimes Gaz is fine with it; I guess it depends on what Nala's doing. they'll sit face to butt in the litter box pretty often with one of them munching on hay.


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## Imbrium

bunny situation's about the same, they bicker a little and snuggle quite a bit when they're out together. tomorrow they're off restrictions, so I'm gonna clean up their run again tonight and let 'em move around more... if things are going well, I'll let them stay out in the run together tonight and sleep in there with them.

I had a total *squee* moment with the stray kitties tonight!

I was out feeding them dinner... I've always been certain the orange cat would let me touch it first when the time came - he's always been very wary of me, but never seemed outright afraid like the grayish-brown and white one. the shyer kitty used to not even let me get within 15-20 feet of it, but lately it'll let me get pretty close as long as it's inside the garage and peering under the door to watch me put out food.

well, the shyer kitty shocked the hell out of me tonight! she (I *think* it's a girl; at the very least it doesn't appear to be a un-neutered male) actually came OUT of the garage not just while I was near but while I was standing *right* there pouring food in the bowls and started eating! I reached out very slowly and gently pet her from her neck to mid-back and she didn't run or flinch or anything! I pet her like that three times and then backed off so as not to spook her by moving too fast, then went and cleaned the water bowl. I can't believe she let me touch her!


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## whitelop

That is always the way we started touching our strays. You keep doing that and they'll associate loving with food and then it won't care about you being around anymore. 
Its so funny to watch strays because they're scared of you then you touch them while they're eat and you can almost hear them say "oh, thats kind of nice. Okay you can pet me a little while I eat" 
That is exciting that she let you touch her though!


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## agnesthelion

Well maybe the girls being off restrictions will help sort things out. Take all the other variables out, so to speak.

I do agree with Suzette that sometimes too much space can cause scuffles but, not sure that applies to you. I guess it depends on how close to square one you had to go back to. I think you have good instincts with your girls and you will know what to do.

Cute moment with the kitten  I remember when I was 9 years old there was a lone stray black kitten in the empty lot behind our house. All by my 9 year old self, I bonded with this kitten. I mean, she started out SO scared of me that I couldn't even be within 50 feet of her and she would take off. I can remember the moment she finally came up to me like it was yesterday. I was so proud!

You should try and get some pics of the cute kitties finally trusting you. It would be cute to see


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## Imbrium

I do have a couple pictures of each of them that I took a while back... http://s1183.photobucket.com/albums/x465/mareimbri1/bunnies/stray kitties/

I'll be able to get some close-up shots within the next month, probably. I'm planning to go take a 2h class on november 17th with san antonio's TNR (trap-neuter-release) program - once you take the class, you can pay a refundable deposit in order to be loaned humane traps plus a temp cage/crate thing for after you trap the cat(s) and for a couple days or something right after their surgery. they have lots of places you can bring the cats to get dirt cheap spay/neuter surgeries + vaccinations (anywhere from $5 to $25 per cat *total*) - only catch is you have to have taken the class and you have to bring the kitties in the humane traps. they fix 'em and vaccinate them, then you release the stray kitties back to wherever you found them and can continue feeding them and stuff.

basically, instead of cramming half-wild cats into shelters where they might get put down if they can't become fit to be pets, they encourage allowing them to stay in their existing feral cat colonies but want to get them all fixed/vaccinated for obvious reasons... then whatever volunteer has adopted the colony can continue to look after them.


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## whitelop

That is so awesome that they have a class to help out with the feral cat population. I am a total believer of the TNR program. I don't know if we have it here, but its something to look into. 
Are you certified or whatever for a certain period of time? Like after you get your little pride of fixed, can you do it again with more cats from a different pride? 

BTW the kitties are adorable. The little orange tabby has a really sweet face. Is that one the boy? It looks like it, he looks like hes got a tom cat head. They're lucky to have found you.


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## Imbrium

I assume you'd be certified or whatever for a while, though hopefully my "colony" will stay at two cats, lol - they, the racoon(s) and the opossum(s) are eating me out of house and home! (not sure which of the other critters I have multiple of, but definitely one of 'em 'cause I'm going through 4-5 lbs of cat food a day)

I caught a glimpse of what looked like boy bits on the orange cat at one point, so I'm guessing it's an unneutered male. the other one, if female, must already be spayed 'cause there's no humping and no kittens.

I plan to try to bond with them more while they're captured... I suspect that if I can get the brownish-gray and white cat to warm up to me, she'd make a wonderful little house cat. she's got a very sweet and docile personality, she's just really scared. I suppose I'd be wary of hell as humans if someone dumped me out on the street, too. poor kitties!


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## agnesthelion

basically, instead of cramming half-wild cats into shelters where they might get put down if they can't become fit to be pets, they encourage allowing them to stay in their existing feral cat colonies but want to get them all fixed/vaccinated for obvious reasons... then whatever volunteer has adopted the colony can continue to look after them.

^^^^i had no idea this even existed. Why isn't this done more often with feral cats! Seems like a perfect solution to me!


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## holtzchick

I'm glad you started a blog I will also be reading! I love seeing your girls together! It's a shame that their bond has hit a rough patch recently but nothing some TLC won't fix


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## whitelop

Stray cats always seem to make the best cats. I've had plenty of strays turn into pets in my lifetime. We had one come up who was about a year old, I put him to sleep at this time last year, after 17 years with us. He was a great cat. 
I'm so glad you're doing this for the kitties! I hope your colony stays just the 2 as well. Its really hard with more than that, we had 12 cats at one point and I think 7 were strays. 

How are your bunny babies today? Are they bonding any better?


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## Imbrium

still getting into scuffles, but no one is actually getting hurt so I've been letting them work it out themselves. the chase scenes seem to be happening significantly less often and sometimes Gaz just thumps and moves away and Nala doesn't chase. they're spending a lot of time sleeping and eating together.

they got their home back yesterday morning (I let them off restrictions like 9 hours early because I was going to be asleep). Nala was running around the pen doing little binkies 

I slept in there with them just in case they got into a fight, but they were quiet (as usual) while I slept. I did wake up at one point and moved my hand down towards my leg where I discovered Nala in bed with me, curled up against my thigh! she moved when I touched her and came up and sat on my pillow for a bit while I fell back asleep - too cute!

an interesting side-effect of the bonding issues is that Gaz has gotten cuddlier towards me - used to be when I'd try to pet her, she'd run off (often towards Nala like "save me from that big thing")... now she's much more receptive to petting and even comes to me sometimes if Nala upsets her. she also got in bed with me a little more often than usual.

I've gotta say, this whole spaying thing has really made me understand more how people get frustrated with poorly-kept rabbits. they get pretty smelly and destructive when they're confined in a tiny space all the time with no out-of-the-cage time!

Nala's cage was a disaster... I'd given her a kleenex box with some of the crappy bale alfalfa that was chopped to bits and very dusty to see if she'd eat it and she ended up dumping it all over the floor. I saw very little tarp through all the hay (she also spread out her timothy instead of eating it).

I hadn't cleaned out the cage in 2-3 days and when I was cleaning it right after I let them back into the pen and took the temp cage apart, I found she'd made herself a toilet BESIDE the litter box on a pile of hay mulch >.>

most of the pee seemed to have gone UNDER the edge of the condo and all of it had damp 1'' long alfalfa bits + tons of alfalfa dust stuck in it. the shop vac was in over its head because of how clumped together stuff was. I just got what I could with paper towels and left the rest to dry out so I could go back today to scrape off another layer. it's a filthy mess! I haven't even bothered with the first floor of the condo where Gaz was yet, but at least that can probably be solved by peeling the fleece off the coroplast and throwing it away. I've gotta get the floor mess cleaned up first, though, so I can actually sit on the floor to clean out the condo.

I really hope I never have to confine them like that again - they make so much less of a mess when they've got more space and it's much easier to find the messes and get them cleaned up quickly before the problem escalates.


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## whitelop

Imbrium wrote:


> an interesting side-effect of the bonding issues is that Gaz has gotten cuddlier towards me - used to be when I'd try to pet her, she'd run off (often towards Nala like "save me from that big thing")... now she's much more receptive to petting and even comes to me sometimes if Nala upsets her. she also got in bed with me a little more often than usual.
> 
> I hadn't cleaned out the cage in 2-3 days and when I was cleaning it right after I let them back into the pen and took the temp cage apart, I found she'd made herself a toilet BESIDE the litter box on a pile of hay mulch >.>
> 
> most of the pee seemed to have gone UNDER the edge of the condo and all of it had damp 1'' long alfalfa bits + tons of alfalfa dust stuck in it. the shop vac was in over its head because of how clumped together stuff was. I just got what I could with paper towels and left the rest to dry out so I could go back today to scrape off another layer. it's a filthy mess!



That is so awesome that Gaz is more lovey! I wonder if its from the spay or if its from her and Nala not getting along. Either way, its awesome! I'm really glad that they're getting along better too. 

Foo is doing the same thing with the pee. She is dumping her hay out and putting it in a pile and peeing in it. NEXT to the litter box. She got locked out of her cage for almost 2 days because she was being a brat. I got it all cleaned out though, wow what a pain in the ass that was. 
My shop vac doesn't like to vacuum up hay, wet or dry. It just doesn't want to do it.


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## Imbrium

so here's what Gaz spent her 10 days of captivity doing... the fleece and coroplast were 100% untouched when they got spayed. you can also see some of the pee mess Nala made in the temp cage on the bottom half of the pic:







some pics of Gaz in their new hammock:











I also got them some other goodies that arrived while they were in lock-up:
https://secure.petco.com/Shop/Product.aspx?SKU=1271377
https://secure.petco.com/Shop/Product.aspx?SKU=1478460
https://secure.petco.com/Shop/Product.aspx?SKU=1268821


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## JBun

I have one bun that's messy like that all the time. Drives me crazy!! Gaz looks comfy in her hammock


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## agnesthelion

I'm glad they are worming out their scuffles with no injuries. I tell ya, the language buns speak to each other is so intricate, you may never kmow what got into them.

The pee and poop mess could be from marking territory again maybe? Either way, I know it's not fun having messy buns? Agnes was basically, well, perfect.  Archie is a little messier, he's great with his litter box, thank goodness, but he throws hay everywhere, pellets everywhere, rearranges like crazy. He's a nutty bun!


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## Imbrium

well, they've always had poops everywhere, so it's not surprising that they ended up with them all over the place in such tiny cages. their run has actually seemed marginally cleaner since I let them out (compared to pre-spays), though!

the pee... well, they tend to think hay is for peeing on. if the pile of hay happens to not be in the litter box... yeah, that's what happened to my floor.

I caught them snuggling in the hammock today! I was SO happy because they stopped using their old hammock like a month ago. I thought maybe they outgrew it or something because once upon a time they LOVED it, so I got them the new one that's a lot bigger and moved it to be above the top level in the condo so that it adds an extra level. I snapped a few pics, though I didn't get a really good one 'cause when I opened the door for pics they decided to get up for pets.


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## Imbrium

ssd: bunnies is in trouble today!

somebunny PEED in my bed (well, air mattress) while I was in the kitchen getting cereal and parsley for breakfast!! not just a little bit, either, like an "I just drank a big gulp" pee! I just washed those sheets two days ago, too ssd:

to top it off, a ROACH died in my laundry room *cringe*

I suppose I should just be thankful that I wasn't in the path of that godawful hurricane... but seriously... pee IN my bed??


----------



## whitelop

Somebun was like "oh, this bed looks nice, I shall pee on it to make it MINE!" Then they binkied away knowing they now own your bed too!


----------



## Imbrium

I was fine with the poop-marking they did on my air mattress a while back (like the time they left 50+ poops in < 15 mins), but this crosses a line!


----------



## whitelop

So I've been reading through some of the Muppet petition posts, and Nala REALLY does look like a Muppet. 
Like, she could have little sticks coming from her legs and she would be a Jim Henson Muppet! She's beautiful and adorable don't get me wrong, but...she looks like a Muppet! I never really noticed until I started reading those posts. 

I wish I had a bun that looked like a Muppet! 
Geez how many times can I say Muppet in one post?! hahaha.


----------



## agnesthelion

Oh gosh, they peed in your bed! They were probably like ohhhh, this bed is so soft and smells like mommy, I'm gonna pee right here 

Cute pics of them in the hammock, btw.


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## Imbrium

thanks


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## Imbrium

you know what I hate? BIG things that require a lot of assembly... and even moreso, things requiring a lot of assembly that have NO diagrams in the instructions >.>

sometimes I hate my compulsion to spoil animals, lol.

I've gotta assemble this cage, which is currently in pieces on my dining room table: http://www.sugar-gliders.com/sugar-glider-cage.htm


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## whitelop

OMG! Did you get sugar gliders?! 
That is super exciting! 

Its like putting together IKEA furniture. You get pictures and an allen wrench.


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## agnesthelion

Saweet sugar glider cage!

Did you get one??! I was like this close to getting one a few years ago. I was nervous I wouldn't "like" them. Tell us about them!!


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## Imbrium

I don't have 'em yet, but am making the final preparations 

the cage, starter kit (food dishes, vitamin and calcium supplements, bonding and sleeping pouches, etc.), stealth wheel, heat lamps (because to hell with keeping my house around 80F - bunnies and I wouldn't be able to stand that!) and a bunch of toys have already arrived and are waiting to be put together (had to clean house and make space for the cage in my dining room)... also waiting on some toymaking supplies to arrive in addition to what I've picked up at walmart and home depot. I think I'll see if I can rope my neighbor into helping me make toys - I think we'd have a lot of fun working on that together.

I've also got hammie babies on the way... my girl seems to be getting bigger by the hour! I cleaned her bin cage out thoroughly today and gave her lots of toilet paper and orchard grass and extra carefresh and she built a huge nest with it all


----------



## whitelop

Congrats on your sugar gliders and hammy babies! That's all so exciting! Keep us updated on all of it. It sounds like your house is going to really busy soon enough!


----------



## Imbrium

busy indeed! I plan to rehome the babies in bin cages so they don't get stuck in crappy store-bought ones, so I'm gonna have to spend a lot of time building bin cages, heh.


----------



## agnesthelion

Awww congrats on the new babies to come! I'm excited to hear about your sugar gliders. I did SO much research on them but their diet seemed overwhelming to me 

But I thought they were fascinating little creatures and thought how cool it would be to carry them around in a pouch  I guess they bond pretty tightly to their humans. So cute!


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## littl3red

*agnesthelion wrote: *


> Awww congrats on the new babies to come! I'm excited to hear about your sugar gliders. I did SO much research on them but their diet seemed overwhelming to me
> 
> But I thought they were fascinating little creatures and thought how cool it would be to carry them around in a pouch  I guess they bond pretty tightly to their humans. So cute!


If you want a little creature with a fairly simple diet and pouch-carrying capabilities, I would HIGHLY suggest a pair of rats. Before you go "EWWW RATS" hear me out! They're affectionate, intelligent, and playful. Like dogs but smaller and more acrobatic. They're pretty easy to care for, their diet is simple. I fed mine similarly to rabbits. (Pellets, cilantro, grapes and apples, this was their "stroke-free" diet after my sweet Beta died of a stroke and I got paranoid). They don't need hay. I used to do chores with a rat riding around on my shoulder. They can be litter box trained. They are highly social creatures, so they can bond closely with their human, but they also need to live in pairs minimum. I had a female rat that I was trying to get spayed so she could live with my boys. She was only alone for a month (she came from a psychology lab with other girls,) and she stopped eating and drinking and died. The vet said that there was no apparent physical cause of death. Given the evidence, it seems that she killed herself. Because she was alone. I feel so bad about that. Seriously, they HAVE to be kept with other rats, NO exceptions.

The ONLY reason that I stopped keeping them was because I had an allergy to them that got progressively worse, to the point where I ended up in the hospital twice. I still have two left, Pixel (who just had his first birthday about a month ago) and Kentucky, who are living at my boyfriend's house because I couldn't give them the care and attention they needed anymore. But if you're not allergic to them, I couldn't recommend them more. I mean, if you ever think about getting a pet other than bunnies, rats are REALLY awesome. :biggrin:


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## Imbrium

most rats, anyway... not all  one of the two "female" rats my roommate in college got (the one who was actually female) was a total witch (apparently I can't type "expletive deleted" with little > brackets around it, wtf?) her babies were as sweet as could be, though.

I'm really worried about my hammy babies! I got mixed up and forgot today was her due date (thought I had another day or two) and was arguing with her because she built a HUGE nest in a good corner of the cage, then suddenly had a bare-bones nest on the opposite side (where I didn't want it because it's under the water bottle). I picked her up to move her back to the good nest again to try to get her to go back to using it and then realized I was touching babies (which is a huge no-no with hammies)!


----------



## agnesthelion

Oh yes I've heard great things about rats. I'm not girlie when it comes to rats at all. Even mice I'm cool with  now, big hairy spiders I turn into a total girl! Lol

I'm not looking for another pet right now. Agnes and Archie and my 3 year old son are plenty of work. The sugar glider thing was before I got my buns. It will just be exciting to live vicariously through jennifer!!


----------



## Imbrium

pics! bunnies first...

tasting their very first blueberries:




sharing some kale:




crammed together in the back corner of their condo for some reason:


----------



## Imbrium

hammy pics...

full cheeks and tummy:











building a nest:





sneak peek at the babies (pics are small 'cause the bigger version is just pink blurs anyway - camera hates up-close shots of tiny things >.>






I can't tell if there's 5 or 6, but she was sitting on/nursing all of them so I don't think she's rejecting them because of me touching them  I snapped a couple pics when she got up to see what I'd put in her food bowl.


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## agnesthelion

Cute!! I thunk it's cute they were crammed in the corner of their condo 

Are those blueberries or blackberries? They look like weird blueberries to me! Lol

The hammies are SOOOO tiny. I don't think I've ever seen newborn hammies. How big are they....like can you compare them to an everyday object for an idea of just how tiny they are?


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## Imbrium

yeah, I totally meant blackberries, lol. definitely not blueberries.

length-wise, I think they're maybe about the size of a quarter? I'll see if I can't get a decent pic of them with an object the next time Misty (I just call her "little miss" though) is out of the nest.


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## Imbrium

holy crap! apparently she wasn't done... or even close  she looked like she was finished after 5-6 - I was away for a good half an hour between when I discovered them and when I went back for pics. not so much. 11 now, if I counted right! not sure they'll all make it, with her being a first time mom.

they're a little bit bigger than a quarter, or at least the one I grabbed was, but not by much. didn't have any disposable latex gloves on hand so I had to use a fresh pair of thick house-cleaning gloves to avoid leaving my scent on it, lol...










oh, and so he doesn't feel left out, here's a pic of dad:


----------



## katherine at sacred stories

AWW... congratulations on your hammie babies. How sweet. Takes me back to when I had them as a little girl. Tiny baby brings tears to my eyes, for some reason So vulnerable. So lucky to be born in your house!!!

And, of course, your bunnies are STILL GORGEOUS!


----------



## agnesthelion

Oh my GOSH! They are SOOOO tiny!! I'd be afraid I'd hurt one picking it up!! Amazing!!


----------



## Imbrium

hehe, yeah, I'd probably be afraid too if I hadn't dealt with hamster babies before (granted, like 15 years ago). they're SO teeny-tiny! rather than picking one up, I basically just carefully nudged/rolled it onto the fingers of my other hand. they squirm around a lot and "popcorn" a bit, hehe. they make little squeaky noises to cry for their mom when she's away from the nest sometimes, too.


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## whitelop

Holy crap, I just read the dietary requirements for sugar gliders, that is a lot of work! 
I thought it was going to be difficult to get the right nutrition into Foo after I took her off pellets, thats nothing compared to what the gliders need! 
I'm sure you've done a ton of research, but I had no idea what they needed! They're SO much different than rabbits. 

I can't wait for you to get them you, like Lisa said, she'll live vicariously through you. I think I will too! They seem like such interesting animals.


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## Imbrium

yup, sugar glider diets are SCARY!! I'm still very antsy about the diet thing and wishing the sugar glider forum I like would stop being broken so I can ask a few more things before I bring a pair home.

meanwhile, cage assembly has turned into a HUGE ordeal ><


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## Imbrium

OMG, OMG, OMG!!!!

I had momma out of the nest so I could peek at the baby hammies... and one of them YAWNED! it was the cutest freaking thing!!


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## agnesthelion

Aww baby hammie yawn!? Hard for me to even picture.........


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## Imbrium

TWO of 'em yawned when I peeked in there this morning! it's totally squee-worthy!


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## Imbrium

3 day old hammy babies!


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## Hyatt101

Sorry... um... what are hammies?


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## Hyatt101

Cute though!


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## Imbrium

hamsters, lol... there are some pics of mom and dad about 2/3 of the way down the previous page


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## Imbrium

the hammy babies are getting bigger already! their skin is starting to change color based on how their fur will start growing in a couple more days. it looks like I have 6 broken, 5 solid and one that I think might be an albino  I can't wait to see how they look in a few more days!


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## Hyatt101

Oh  hehe!


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## Imbrium

they're starting to look a little more like hammies and have grown just a hint of fur now! they're 5 days old (or will be in a couple hours, anyway):


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## whitelop

Wow, that's a lot of hammy babies! 
Its crazy to think that one hamster carried all of those babies. Better yet, how does she nurse them all?! Geez, thats a good mama hammy!


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## agnesthelion

I like the one in the top picture who has his legs straddling two other ones


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## Imbrium

aww, I didn't even notice that! I'm rather partial to the little albino-looking one.

she "only" had 12 babies... they can actually have litters as large as 24!! she seems to do a decent enough job of feeding 'em all; she sits on the nest at least 20 hours a day.


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## Hyatt101

Whoa! They're really cool!


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## whitelop

Good lord, could you imagine 24! That would be CHAOS! They all look around the same size, so it looks like she's doing a pretty good job feeding them. 

Are you going to keep the little albino one?


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## littl3red

Aww... I think you're starting to make me not hate hamsters! 

Don't get me wrong, they're adorable... But the only animals I've ever been attacked by for no reason, on multiple occasions, are ducks and hamsters. So those are the only animals I don't like. Literally just minding my own business, and then CHOMP! I'm bit! Or in the ducks' case, I've never met a duck that didn't chase me. Lordy, I'm so terrified of ducks. My boyfriend thinks it's hilarious. I do NOT.


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## Imbrium

yeah, some hammies are... well, not very nice. really depends on how they're raised/socialized/handled. they're also a pain in the butt because they're *constantly* wiggling around and trying to run off (as opposed to things like rats, who will actually sit there and chill on your hand).


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## ldoerr

They are SOOOOO cute. I have had 7 hamsters growing up. I never housed any together and never had a batch of babies. I often had 3 cages of hamsters in my room at 1 time. I found that the meanest hamsters were the female dwarfs. The male teady bear hamsters were the sweetest from my experience and also the easiest to handle. The one that I remember the most was a male dwarf that was born at my next door neighbors house. His name was Cuddles. He was my baby. He grew a HUGE tumor that was 1/2 the size of him. He lived for over a year with that tumor on him. My parents would never take it to the vet though. I really miss my hamsters, but the next animal I want is some rats or some cavies. Though that will probably not happen for many years. 

Good luck raising those babies. Keep us updated with them and the bunnies (remember LOTS of pictures).


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## Imbrium

hehe... they look the same as they did yesterday, so I didn't take any pics today but I'll definitely post more as they grow up! I'm almost positive by now that one of them is albino


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## Imbrium

I would just like to say that home depot SUCKS. yesterday, I rushed over and arrived like 5 mins "before they closed" only to find that they seemed to be already closed...which was unusual, as I'm often showing up in the last 10-15 mins, but I didn't think enough of it to look more closely.

tonight, I rushed over half an hour "before they closed"... and they were CLOSED. upon closer inspection, I found out that sometime in the last week-week and a half, the jerks have started closing at 9 pm instead of 10 pm! I've been doing lots of shopping there since getting the bunnies and almost always in that last hour


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## whitelop

A similar thing happened at the Lowes near our house. We got there like 5 minutes before they closed because we needed a part for our sink, and they wouldn't let us in. This lady was inside and she just shook her head at us and pointed at the sign. I put my phone up to the window and said it was 8:56 and she walked away. 
I knocked on the door and let out some serious obscenities, when she came back I flipped her off and walked away. 
That stuff pisses me off so bad! If its 8:56 and you close at 9, then you're NOT closed, quit being lazy! Ahhh.


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## Imbrium

LOL, yeah, I do hate when they close a few minutes early... but actually CHANGING their hours on me? so mean! some of us are nocturnal, darn it!


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## Imbrium

babies are 8 days old now! they're getting very squrimy and eager to explore, so it was harder to keep them all piled up for pics, lol.


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## Hyatt101

AWWW!!


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## Imbrium

I *might* be getting my gliders tomorrow! they're both tamed enough to be ready to go but she says she needs to actually see them eat some of the pelleted part of the diet (as opposed to just the liquid portion. as soon as they eat some pellets, they can come home with me!

I'm so excited... and I finally got off my butt and finished arguing with that wretched cage, so they've got a habitat to come home to


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## Hyatt101

PICTURES PICTURES!


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## agnesthelion

Imbrium wrote:


> I *might* be getting my gliders tomorrow! they're both tamed enough to be ready to go but she says she needs to actually see them eat some of the pelleted part of the diet (as opposed to just the liquid portion. as soon as they eat some pellets, they can come home with me!
> 
> I'm so excited... and I finally got off my butt and finished arguing with that wretched cage, so they've got a habitat to come home to



Oh how exciting! We will all be anxiously waiting..........


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## ldoerr

PICTURES PLEASE!!!!! Also where are you getting the gliders from? Is there a thread that I missed you talking about them in?


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## ldoerr

O and those baby hamies are SOOOOOO cute


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## Imbrium

aww, I slept a bit too late, so I don't get them until tomorrow... they're ready to go now, though!

I'm getting them from a local breeder - http://www.helenslittlecritters.com/sugar_glider.htm
she's really nice and puts a lot of time into talking to potential buyers. also, it turns out she uses the same vet I do even though he's pretty far away from where she lives, which reaffirms my feeling that I picked an excellent vet. I think they might be getting another "well baby" check-up tomorrow morning.

some of my sugar-glider discussion is in this thread - http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=76687&forum_id=5


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## Imbrium

aww, my poor glider-breeder's got a migraine today  she says we're still on for tonight but right now she doesn't feel up to talking for like an hour (making sure I'm all set, talking me through her diet for them, etc.) so I told her to rest up for a while and call me once she's feeling better since I'll be up late anyway... hopefully in the next 3-4h I'll have my gliders!


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## Hyatt101

PICTURES PLEASE!


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## agnesthelion

Well I hope your absence here means you got your gliders  we will be waiting to hear!


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## holtzchick

Hmm... I hope you got your gliders! I didn't read through the rest of your blog so I'm not sure BUT I will assume you put together that PITA cage... LOL... I swear I will go through your blog and read it since I think it would be rude not too!


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## Imbrium

yeah, I've still got a lot of peoples' blogs to get around to, lol - I like to read them from start to finish before I start following 'em 

they're not in the cage yet... I think she said they're only 6 weeks OOP (out of pouch - they're technically "born" a couple months before they start leaving the pouch, but people consider their birthday to be when they leave the pouch). they've gotta spend a couple weeks in this tiny nursery set-up before I can start transitioning them to the big cage... but at least I've got the darn thing done aside from a bit more toy-making and decorating. I posted a pic of the mostly-decorated cage here - http://rabbitsonline.net/view_post.php?post_id=986484

they're in the bonding pouch around my neck right now... they're SO tiny! I did snap a few pics for you guys, though. (the thumbnail sized ones are smaller 'cause they're fuzzy when they're bigger - it was hard to get the little wiggle-butts to sit still!


----------



## Imbrium

11 day old hammy babies... not sure what one of 'em has in their mouth, a piece of mom's food probably. also, I don't think the light colored one is albino after all - it's looking tan now. I'll know for sure when their eyes open, I guess.






more glider pics:


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## Hyatt101

Aww!! I love them!


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## agnesthelion

Cuties!!! Looks like they are letting you handle them okay. Any crabbing? And what did you decide to name them?

The hammies are getting bigger!


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## whitelop

I gasped when I saw pictures of the gliders and scared the crap out of my son! 
THEY ARE SO FREAKING CUTE! I'm SO jealous of you right now. 
Are they soft? They look pretty soft, are they like rabbits or chinchillas or maybe cats? They're just such interesting little creatures! 

And your little hammies are so adorable! Its so amazing how fast they grow!


----------



## HolyHandGrenade

Cuuuuuute! I never saw a close-up pic of sugar gliders, so I didn't know til now that they have little bat ears! Also, are their tails prehensile? (yes, I could google, but I'm afraid I'll find out enough to want some, and I no can haz)


----------



## holtzchick

They are cute little buggers as are the hammers! How are your buns doing? Is their bond slowly getting back to where it was or are they separated ?


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## Imbrium

I dunno if their tails are prehensile, actually... probably not? they grip things like crazy with their little hands and feet. they're very soft and tiny... one of them crabs at me sometimes when I first open the bonding pouch, so I try to talk to them first before I open it and that seems to help. they don't have names yet, as I'm still learning their personalities/how to tell them apart. I think I might put a drop of food coloring on one of their heads to help me tell the difference 

the hammies are cute, as always, and should be exploring out of the nest on their own any day now (happens at 11-14 days and they're 11 1/2).

my bunns have been back together ever since they got off restrictions from their spays... there was some occasional booty-biting at first, but they seem to have gradually gotten back to where their bond originally was. they're very snuggly with each other now, like they were as babies. their poop habits have finally improved a bit, too - not NEARLY as many strays as there used to be!


----------



## ldoerr

Amazing what I miss when I do not log in for a couple of days. The gliders and hammies are SOOOO cute!!! I will get around to reading your glider thread soon. Are you going to name any of the hamsters or keep any of them? I would love a picture of them in their cage/ a picture of their cage and a picture of their mom


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## Imbrium

their cage is pretty boring, since I had to take the wheel and some of the toys away to "baby-proof" it, but I can try to remember to take a pic in a bit.

here's where all my hammy pics are - http://s1183.photobucket.com/albums/x465/mareimbri1/bunnies/hamster/ the dad is solid and the mom is the striped one.

I *might* keep one of the babies, but hopefully I'll find homes for the others.


----------



## Imbrium

Nala vs phone book:







12 day old baby hammies eating kale:















(really wish my camera didn't suck at focusing on tiny things at close range)


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## Hyatt101

They are too cute!!


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## Imbrium

oh yeah, my video of them finally uploaded... it's SO noisy when they're all nomming kale at the same time!

[flash=425,344]http://www.youtube.com/v/FGTLh70f-tw&hl=en&fs=1[/flash]


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## SnowyShiloh

The baby hams are so darling! I haven't had a hamster in a few years- and we have a cat now who I'm pretty sure would like to eat one- but I do love hammies. The babies are so sweet. What a big litter! Your sugar gliders are cute, too, and so is Miss Nala. Do you have any pictures of Gaz to share? She is so sweet! I love Holland Lops, they are my favorite. Your girl looks like my precious baby Tallulah who died a few years ago. Looking at Gaz makes my eyes tear up.

In any case, I'm glad you decided to start a bunny blog  I update my bunny blog very sporadically, but I do have a cooking blog which I'm mentioning only since you said you don't like blogs. My blog is solely for the purpose of sharing really good recipes, though. I never just talk about what I ate or share random pictures of it, talk about non-recipe subjects, or even recipes I made that didn't turn out well. Just recipes that are great and worth the effort for other people to make. Blogs are my favorite place to get recipes  Have to admit that I don't read any non-recipe blogs!


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## Imbrium

I've got tons of pics of Gaz in my photobucket album... while Nala is cute as can be in real life, Gaz actually tends to be more photogenic so she gets a lot of attention from the camera 

here's a brand new pic of little Gazzles in the condo:





and one of the girls eating their hay:


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## Hyatt101

So cute, as always


----------



## whitelop

I wonder if Gaz is so photogenic because she's a holland lop? I think they're really photogenic. Not that Nala is adorable, because she is but Gaz does photograph really nicely!


----------



## Hyatt101

Very true! Gaz is in the spotlight! :hearts


----------



## ldoerr

That video of the babies is SOOOOOO cute!!


----------



## Imbrium

yeah, something about Gaz's little "eeyore" face just photographs SO nicely (as do her dead bunny flops)! Nala's also more prone to closing her eyes when the flash goes off.


----------



## Imbrium

more hammy pics! 12 1/2 day old babies nomming kale again - it's SO cute, they were putting it in their little cheek pouches! I didn't figure they'd do that on their second day ever of eating solid food.

my favorite, with its cheek pouch stuffed:





the little runt:





both together to show the size difference:





hammy pile:





there's more, but I figured that was enough picture spam in the thread 
http://s1183.photobucket.com/albums/x465/mareimbri1/bunnies/hamster/


----------



## Hyatt101

Oh my word, I love the first picture!


----------



## Imbrium

I do too, I couldn't believe it when I saw her stuffing her teeny tiny cheek pouch with kale! I think I'm gonna keep her, she's just TOO precious... mommy and daddy threw a real curve-ball with the tan fur on one out of 12 babies. oh, and they're big enough now (barely) for me to tell genders apart so I found out today that one's female 

also, the rest of the babies all looked like they were the sort of charcoal color that Misty is (some with a stripe like mom, others solid like dad) but today they started differentiating a bit - some have started turning from charcoal to more of a warm brown color like their dad.

on an unrelated note, I think some of my neighbors officially think I'm certifiable. they're used to the bunny pen in the yard, but today a couple people actually slowed down for a closer look 'cause I had a pop-up (mostly screen) tent in the bunny pen in the yard, lol. I'm sure they were baffled as to what I was up to.

I had the sugar gliders playing in the tent (though they mostly just wanted to play on me) with the bunnies running in the pen. it was SO cute - the bunnies kept "burrowing" under the bottom of the tent, so you'd see this bump in the tent floor moving around, lol. they did some insane binkies, too - gaz did the biggest, jumpiest binkies I've ever seen her do!

it made me think "sibling rivalry" - like they were being extra cute to make sure I didn't forget about them with all the new babies in the house... as if I could ever forget to love on their adorable little bunny faces! the hammy and glider babies get lots of extra attention because, well, they're babies and they're not gonna stay so tiny and super-cute forever... but I will *always* have enough love left over for my precious little bunnykins.


----------



## holtzchick

Haha bunnies often get jealous of new arrivals! They want to know their fuzzbutts are #1... That and that you'll still feed them their veggies even though there are weird new furry things around to gather your attention  sounds great though! If my neighbors were to ever look inside my loft... I think theyd know me as the weird rabbit girl from there on out ... By the way amazing pictures of the hammies! So cute


----------



## ldoerr

O my sooo cute


----------



## Imbrium

ugh... rough day.

it started with Gaz seeming a bit more lackluster than usual, even for mid-to-late morning... laying stretched out (but not the normal dead bunny flop) like maybe her tummy was a little upset/gassy. she does that sometimes, so that alone wasn't enough to worry me. I normally give veggies when I eat lunch, but I had to be at the TNR (trap-neuter-return) class for my stray kitties at lunch time so I gave lunchtime greens early today.

Gaz is normally a veggie vacuum cleaner, but she didn't come down to eat the turnip greens... and didn't even eat them when I put them up in the condo with her. it's been probably almost 2 mos since I've bought turnip greens and I couldn't remember if it was that or collard greens they didn't like (though I'm 90% sure it was collard), so I wasn't sure if it was normal or not for her to shun them. worried and on my way out the door, I captured her and dosed her with simethicone... she gobbled the first half the dose, then suddenly didn't want the other half and I had to force it. she nibbled a bit on the veggies but didn't eat much. over-protective mom that I am, I briefly considered asking my neighbor to bunny-sit for two hours but decided it was unnecessary, as 2h isn't all that long and she was at least eating a tiny bit.

I took the gliders to the class in their pouch... and right as it ended, Trouble came down with fairly bad diarrhea  (which I suspected might be stress-related (and confirmed as a possibility online), as I was showing them off/explaining to people what had briefly made a funky electric-pencil-sharpener type noise (crabbing) in the middle of class - the gliders suddenly became VERY agitated/upset about that... and then Trouble pooped a really runny poop.)

when I got home, the turnip greens were still almost all there. I put out some cilantro and still didn't get a response from Gaz so I dosed her with metacam and more simethicone. she fought like hell; I think only half the metacam made it in her mouth but I didn't want to give too much with a dose being so small to begin with. she also wanted nothing to do with the simethicone that time. she struggled a lot and bit me a couple times (would've been more like a dozen if I hadn't thwarted most of the attempts by keeping my thumb under her chin)... not hard enough to even come close to breaking the skin, but definitely hard enough to clearly state "knock it the f--- off, mom!". I was relentless, though, and didn't let her go until I was done forcing meds. she ate some cilantro and hay, which made me happy.

I called the breeder I got my gliders from about what to do with Trouble, as she had bad diarrhea again a couple hours after the first incident and I needed to know whether this was a "put down the phone and get the hell to the emergency vet NOW" thing (like baby bunnies) or if it was somewhat common/easily treatable with home remedies. turned out it wasn't an "emergency vet" situation... though it sure as hell made me antsy to agree to treat at home/wait and see at 4 pm on a saturday. (why do things always love to go wrong on saturday nights??)

I had a bad headache from listening to a million freaking dogs barking for two hours (the class was held at an animal shelter and the walls were thin), so I rested up for a bit. Gaz ate and played enough to make me satisfied that either the metacam/simethicone worked or my imagination stopped over-reacting to nothing - she seems back to her normal self.

I "stimulated" Trouble to poop (brushing a kleenex down her tummy/privates to simulate mom licking) before moving her from pouch to nursery cage and it wasn't totally runny, but still wasn't really formed either so I headed to the store for some kaopectate as per the breeder's recommendations. she gobbled down a full dose of it happily. a couple hours later, I tried to stimulate her again and all she did was pee, which I guess is a good sign... went to give her another dose of kaopectate and suddenly she LOATHED it, like Gaz and the yummy/disgusting simethicone. I had to semi-force it by placing a droplet at a time on her lips so that she'd instinctively lick it off (for half a freaking cc)... with her struggling and wriggling the whole time.

on a side note, forcing a glider through a butt-bath is about as fun as it is with a bunny >.>

I really hope Trouble's back to normal by morning - she's got me really worried! I'm thankful, though, that at least Gaz seems back to normal and there's nothing wrong with the hammy babies aside from eyes starting to open seeming to = them thinking my fingers are possibly food.


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## Hyatt101

Aw, sorry it's been a rough day Jennifer! Yikes, poor Gaz and Trouble (thats the glider's name, right?) You handled it very well though! I hope your critters get better soon!
BTW, we need to see more pics of hammies!!


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## qtipthebun

Oh many. Why do things always go wrong when the vet is closed?

How's Gazzles today? and Trouble?


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## whitelop

Sounds like a rough day indeed. 
Turnip greens always make Foo gassy. I always have to give her simethicone, syringe feed her pumpkin and water. The same thing happens when she eats kale. 
So maybe turnip greens just make her a little gassy. I think its weird because they aren't on the gassy food list(I can never remember the real word for those foods!) but it happens to Foo. 

I hope your glider is okay! That seems really scary though, that is such a foreign animal to me!


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## ldoerr

Sorry for the rough day  I agree that we need more pictures  What is this simethicone stuff? I have never herd of it.


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## agnesthelion

Wow. Been gone for a few days. Glad to hear gaz seems better and the gilder poop thing sounded not fun  

So did I miss the names of your gliders? Trouble and..........?


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## Imbrium

Gaz is driving me a little nuts, or maybe my imagination is. when I put out their bedtime hay, they usually come running because they eat all the fluff out of the alfalfa fast and I won't give them more until the next meal time (I refresh hay when I feed other stuff - my breakfast/lunch/dinner/bed times) so they're stuck eating the stick bits they don't like. I put some hay fluff up in the condo with them and only Nala started eating it. I sighed and dosed Gazzles with simethicone (baby gas drops) again - this time she took it eagerly and started eating hay *right* after I gave it... making me think she'd made me waste expensive meds for no reason when I could've just waited another 30 seconds.

they also had pellets left in the bowl this morning, even though it had been like 12h since I gave them their pellets last night - I think they ate less than 1/4c overnight combined and that's really weird. daytime pellets sometimes linger because of the veggies, but night time ones are always gone.

Gaz IS eating and running around playing with Nala and acting mostly normal... I guess what's bugging me is that she suddenly seems to have stopped "boredom" eating and I don't know why. if there's nothing wrong with her, then it's a good thing as she's got weight troubles from constantly eating instead of just munching here and there like Nala. I just worry, because it's not like her to shun food.

it's been just over a month now since their spays, and in retrospect I question if there weren't hormones after all what with the humping that one time and the booty biting and the scuffles. could hormones going away have something to do with her eating habits changing? she's been an over-eater since I got her at 8 weeks old, though, which was pre-hormones...

Trouble's poop is still really runny as of 3-4 hours ago, but not quite as bad as yesterday. I gave her more kaopectate when I first woke up and I'll be checking in on them in a bit now that it's about time for them to be waking up for real. worst part of it is that I thought she was done and set her on my shoulder for a minute so I could free up my hands and she pooped on my collar and I didn't notice at first... ended up with it on my wrist and hand, another part of my shirt, and after I noticed and decided to take my shirt off, my chin. ugh. not as bad as poopy baby diapers (which set off my over-sensitive gag reflex) but very unpleasant and required a thorough scrubbing-up after I put Trouble away.

I talked to the breeder again, she says to keep on keeping an eye on her/giving the kaopectate. if she's not doing significantly better by morning, I'm gonna give the vet a call when they open and see if I can get them in.

I have to confirm that the multi-pet fee covers unlimited numbers of pets even if they're not the same species (I know it would cover taking all 14 hamsters in at once, lol)... if that's the case, then I'm gonna bring Gaz and Nala along as well - if I'm paying $58 bucks in exam fees whether I bring in 2 pets or 4, I may as well bring in all four.

pity this couldn't have waited until the start of next month, though, as I plan to get all the hammy babies checked out but want to wait until they're about a month old. not looking forward to that if I end up not taking the gliders and bunns tomorrow, though, lol - carting 14 hammies (who by then will be in four cages - mom, dad, boy babies and girl babies), 2 gliders AND four bunnies in at once for check-ups...

oh, and my other glider's name is Hurricane


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## Imbrium

I put out cilantro and it went untouched for like 10-15 mins, a new record. Gaz sniffed it and walked off without eating any 

I remembered about probiotics and gave a dose to Gaz... and Nala, because she really wanted some too and I figured it couldn't hurt (they *really* like the benebac paste... I was kinda shocked Nala ate a whole dose and was still looking for more, though - when I dosed them with it pre- and post-spay, Nala would scarf down half a dose and then refuse to eat any more). as SOON as I gave Gaz the probiotic, she started nomming the cilantro. can rabbits get Munchausen syndrome? >.>

Trouble seems to be doing better... she pooped for me again and half of it was normal with the other half only mild diarrhea. she and Hurricane are both still eating well.

I introduced the hammy babies to egg today (scrambled in the microwave since that's faster/easier than hard boiling and still doesn't involve any oil). some loved it, others were disinterested. I put them in one of those plastic pumpkins like kids use to collect halloween candy and played with 'em for a while - they were so cute! about half of the ones that suddenly started/kept biting me yesterday have now learned that I'm not food, and the bitey ones were giving more licks than bites today. I love just sticking my hand in the pile of them... just like back when pet stores let you put your hands in cages, I'd always scoop up a big pile of little tiny mice just to feel them wriggling around in my hands, lol.


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## Imbrium

oh, and pics... lots of new ones of the hammy babies here - http://s1183.photobucket.com/albums/x465/mareimbri1/bunnies/hamster/

there are some weird ones in there... to explain, I was trying to figure out the technical terms for all their colorings and learn some of the genetics stuff so I needed to post top, bottom and side (for cheek flashes) pics of mom and dad on the hammy forum so that people had the info they needed to tell me if I was right or wrong. there's also some solo pics of the runt because he's got me confused - he looks like he has two different colorings which are mutually exclusive. I'm hoping to figure him out in the next day or two.

the babies:
4 umbrous golden (3 male/1 female)
1 sable (charcoal color) (F)
3 banded umbrous golden (2M/1F)
2 banded sable (1M/1F)
1 mystery runt (M) - banded yellow-black or late-to-distinguish banded umbrous golden, I think - I'm not quite sure yet. he's the furthest one back in the picture of the banded babies.
1 cream (F)... almost wish it was male so I could line-breed it back to mom and have a 50/50 shot at cream-colored babies, but I suppose I don't need that temptation. (basically, it would allow me to start breeding out the dominant umbrous gene that turns cream into sable - sable is really just "umbrous cream". "umbrous golden" means they have that gray sheen on top of the brown coat.)

if anyone else actually gets excited over learning about the genetics stuff, there's more details about it in my thread on the hammy forum: http://hamsterhideout.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=72406

the baby pics are divided into groups... the cream one didn't get to be in the solid group because I used the pics to update my online ads for the babies and the cream one is staying with me!


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## Hyatt101

I love the umbrous golden babies!!! They are sooo cute!  :hearts:


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## holtzchick

Awh so cute! I never realized how quickly hamsters grew! 

You need more pictures of the two naughty bunnies, I love looking at them


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## agnesthelion

Those hammies are getting big! When do they open their eyes?

The glider poop story sounded, well, gross  I suppose you'll get used to it before too long since they poop and pee wherever they are. It will be better when the poop isn't runny! Hahaha

I like the names Hurricane and Trouble


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## whitelop

Imbrium wrote:


> I love just sticking my hand in the pile of them... just like back when pet stores let you put your hands in cages, I'd always scoop up a big pile of little tiny mice just to feel them wriggling around in my hands, lol.


That made me cringe! I don't really know why. I think they're adorable and they're so smart, but to me they still seem like vermin! I think I would have to own one to get passed it. 

I think your hammies are adorable! Oh my. The creamed colored one is so cute! Does the mom not care now that you're touching them? Is it just when they're first born that you can't touch them? I don't know much about hammies, as I'm sure you can tell! 

As for Gaz, I don't know if they can have Munchausen syndrome or not. It seems strange that she wants whatever meds before she eats. Maybe you could try to give her something other than the benebac or simethicone. I know they can't hurt, but maybe if she gets the idea that it isn't something good she won't want it anymore before meals. Like maybe just give her some water, that way you won't be using all your good stuff for a bun who is a little nutty!


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## ldoerr

Imbrium wrote:


> carting 14 hammies (who by then will be in four cages - mom, dad, boy babies and girl babies), 2 gliders AND four bunnies in at once for check-ups...



Wait since when do you have *4* bunnies???? Good luck with it all  So do any of the baby hamsters have names?


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## Imbrium

the hammies have been opening their eyes over the last two days 

you're not supposed to touch them until their eyes are open because some mothers will cannibalize them if you get your scent on them before that. however, I accidentally touched half the babies *right* after they were born because I didn't realize she'd started giving birth already. she didn't kill them... and she didn't show the "normal" signs of aggression when my hand got near the nest or act like she wanted to defend the nest. she just kinda looked at me like "oh, hi there" and went back to what she was doing.

long story short, I've been touching/handling the babies daily since the day they were born with no issues but not all hammy mothers are sweet enough to allow that so I definitely wouldn't recommend it to others. Misty's an extremely docile/submissive hamster.

I really do love sticking my hand in the hammy pile, they're so warm and soft! 

when I woke up today, the first thing I saw was Gaz eating - yay!! she ate some veggies and some pellets and a bunch of hay  I think the probiotic did the trick. it says to give two doses, three days apart so I'll still be following up with the second dose.

Trouble is continuing to improve but not as fast as I'd like so I'm thinking vet tomorrow for sure. I was thinking of taking her today, but I needed to take a nap so I could stay up (since I'm mostly nocturnal) and it accidentally turned into a full night's sleep.


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## Imbrium

these are the faces of bad little bunnies!!






I've been scatterbrained lately and keep forgetting their veggies. I remembered as soon as I set foot in the pen with my own lunch, as usual. I had some crafting supplies sitting out on my bed (air mattress) to work on making glider toys and the bunnies were *very* intrigued. I wisely sat my skettios on the TV tray by the door to the pen so they wouldn't get any ideas about my lunch while I went back to the kitchen to grab some cilantro, but I didn't think anything of tossing the (unopened) package of whole grain club crackers onto the bed because they've never seemed interested in crackers anyway.

I come back - after being gone all of 60 seconds - to find them both utterly fascinated with something on my bed, which prompted an "uhoh" feeling and turned out to be the package of crackers, which they had RIPPED open (in the middle, no less) and were starting to nibble on!

luckily, they only got a few little corners because I got back so quickly.


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## holtzchick

Awh bad little bunnies! I'm sure they had good intentions though  

How are the gliders adjusting? The hammies are just so precious. Sounds like a big happy household


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## Imbrium

I'm getting ready to take the gliders into the vet - Trouble still isn't better


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## whitelop

Good luck at the vet! Hopefully everything goes well! 
What bad little buns you have! They wanted some delicious club crackers, at least they only ate the crackers and didn't eat the plastic or anything that would be really bad for them.

At least they are whole grain!


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## Imbrium

I hope they didn't eat any plastic, anyway... honestly, I didn't double-check it 'cause it seemed like there was a reasonable volume of loose plastic. still, those are MY crackers, darn it. like I always tell them about my meals, "is not for bunnies! go eat your veggies."

Trouble and Hurricane are at the vet now, so I've gotta sit here and wait for a phone call >< (no appointments available so I had to drop them off to be looked at whenever the vet happened to have a little free time... on the plus side, my vet is great about *planning* for people to need to bring pets in/drop them off on short notice sometimes so if something bad comes up, you can pretty much always get your pet(s) looked at that day if you call in the morning)


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## whitelop

Awww. It sucks you had to just drop them there. I would be a ball nerves. I'm glad you have such a good vet though. 

I know Nala is picky about greens, but what kind does she eat? Just kale and a bit of cilantro?


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## Imbrium

yeah, and sometimes the veins in the middle of romaine (but not the good leafy part, the weirdo). she actually ate a decent amount of cilantro last night, I was impressed.


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## whitelop

Have you tried red/green leaf lettuce, or butter lettuce? Those are a Foo favorite. Or have you tried a spring mix bag salad? Its got spinach, arugula, frisee lettuce, radicchio, beet tops, romaine, green chard. A lot of those things are high is OA and calcium, so I feed a handful like 3 times a week. But it might have something in it that Nala likes. And if they don't like it, then throw some croutons in there and it makes a great salad!


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## Imbrium

haven't tried butter lettuce, but I've tried red and green. I've tried spinach as well, but she doesn't eat it and I don't buy it any more because I have to feed kale so regularly and it's high in OA as well.

I've also tried watercress, raddish tops, parsley, curly parsley, swiss chard, mustard greens, turnip greens, collard greens, cucumber leaves and bok choy. she eats carrot tops on occasion, but they've been wilty/ucky at the grocery store lately so I haven't been buying them. sometimes she'll eat a leaf/sprig of basil, mint or fennel from the garden. I'll find out about raddicio in maybe a month or so - I'm growing some in the garden.


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## whitelop

Good lord! That IS a picky bunny! Its a good thing she eats Sherwood Forest.


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## Ilovemyrabbit

:yeahthat:


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## Imbrium

vet didn't call me, so I called them... turns out Trouble has a bacterial infection in her gut . I'm going to pick them up now, he's putting them both on baytril. poor girl! I feel SO bad about oversleeping and not getting her in yesterday.


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## agnesthelion

Oh no Jennifer, that's not a fun way to start out your glider journey  don't feel guilty there was no way to know for sure because it most certainly could have been new home jitters.....
Did you tell the breeder? Is it anything that could have happened under her care? (not saying she's to blame or anything but something she should know...?)


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## ldoerr

Sorry to hear about that. I agree to call the breeder. She should know about it.


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## holtzchick

:yeahthat:

Def give the breeder a call and at least let her know that is a shame ! I hope Trouble gets better quickly!


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## Hyatt101

Hopefully Trouble will be okay! Definitely tell the breeder, (it wasn't her fault or anything) but she could help you. 

Okay, so I read like a page back, and Jennifer, you said you were taking 4 bunnies to the vet???? Did you get more bunnies?!


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## whitelop

Poor little baby Trouble. Let us know how shes doing, you're bringing them home from the vet today right?


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## Imbrium

yeah, I did talk to the breeder about it - she was my first call when Trouble first got diarrhea; I talked to her on saturday and monday, then again last night after I got home from the vet. based on the timeline, I assume it started on my watch... the vet said it could've been caused by stress.

the good news is she's doing MUCH better already!

the bad news is that they LOATHE the baytril and getting .1 mL into each glider always results in the gliders, my hands, and sometimes various other things ending up sticky and stinking of medicinal fake-grape (and I have to dose them twice a day). last night, I tricked Trouble by adding some gliderade to the syringe after I measured out the baytril, but Hurricane wouldn't fall for it and now neither will Trouble.

it's been four months now since I got my bunnies (feels like we've been together SO much longer!) - they've officially spent 2/3+ of their lives with me  I've gotta go buy them some more kale so we can celebrate.


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## holtzchick

Lol Awh  sounds like all has been restored... Happy early thanksgiving btw !!


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## Imbrium

*sigh* I put the gliders in their big cage instead of the little "nursery" cage for some play time... put Trouble on the wheel to see what she thought of it. I came back 10 mins or so later and she was still sitting on it, so I figured she must not know how to get down. I went to pick her up to take her off the wheel and she was clinging to it for dear life... while I was trying to get her to let go, she suddenly freaked out and started biting the crap out of me! they've never bit me before . oh, and she pooped all over me while I was trying to get her to quit biting, too... and her poop is NOT back to normal yet... so I had to dodge bites while scrambling for paper towels to clean up.


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## Hyatt101

I'm sorry Jennifer  it may take them awhile to get used to everything


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## ldoerr

SORRY to hear about this  Hope that all gets better soon. Happy 4 month gotcha day to you Nala and Gaz


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## Imbrium

well, I'm still VERY worried that forcing down the baytril is going to make the gliders hate me ><

they're closed thurs/fri this week so I might call saturday to see if this is really the only option. failing that, my hammy babies are all going to the vet for "well baby" check-ups on monday morning and because it's free after 2 pets (up to a point, anyway, I was warned I *might* get charged extra for bringing SO many in at once but I imagine it wouldn't be more than the multi-pet exam fee x2), I'm bringing EVERYONE - the bunnies, the gliders, the hammy babies and mom and dad. that way, I'll be covered as far as well-being checks for like six months.

Gazzles is still back to normal, she's been great since shortly after I gave her the probiotic. she and Nala are being little trouble-makers as always and are cute as ever. I gave them another big cardboard box (that the bins to make bin cages for the hammy babies came in) and they're loving it.

oh, and one of my hammy babies will be going to their new forever home early next week, assuming the vet clears 'em to go. the lady wanted to buy ASAP but I insisted that they needed a bit more time with mom (saturday's the absolute earliest I could justify taking them from mom as that's when they hit 3 weeks) and that I wanted to get them all checked out at the vet before selling them. I'll be contacting her after the vet appt. to arrange a pick-up time.

crazy thing is, she lives in san marcos, which is at LEAST half an hour away from me... wants to buy from me because "the pet store ones were stupidly expensive", lol. I wasn't about to point out that the pet store ones are surely cheaper than mine by the time you add gas money to the $10 I'm charging (she already has a cage/supplies so isn't buying one of my starter kits), what with how far away she lives. imo, my babies are better than pet store hammies anyway, though - they've got a 594 square inch cage to run around in, get handled multiple times a day every day, get fed one of the top pellet brands and get a nice fresh food diet on top of that to get them used to variety.


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## KittyKatMe

That's what someone said when they wanted one of my bunnies. Turns out, they wanted to put a bowl of water on the porch and let it "roam the yard". I tried to be as nice as possible, but they obviously left my place without a bunny. BTW, that awesome home I had planned bought Adeline and LaRew, and she made an appointment with my vet that I know and trust to get them spayed/neutered. :yahoo::clapping: Anyway, good luck with your sugarbabies and hammies! Post more pics of the babies as they get older. Also, when I bred Winter Whites, I weaned them at 5 weeks. Is it different for Syrians?


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## Imbrium

well, I'm 99% confident she's being truthful about having a cage, since you can't exactly let a hammy out in the yard . they're experienced hamster owners - they used to have a pair of dwarves, but the last one passed away recently. she wants another hamster and thinks mine are SUPER cute, hehe.

syrians are sexually mature by 5-6 weeks... as far as when to wean/separate, I've heard 3-4 weeks from some sources and 5 weeks from others, so I asked my vet to get a more reliable opinion than that of internet people - he very confidently told me 3-4 weeks was all they need. they're three weeks old as of today (well, about 10 hours from now). 

I'm tempted to pull the bigger hams soon, but I'm just going to leave everyone with mom and separate at the same time because I fear if I move some to their new same-sex cages before others, there would be problems when I added the last of the hammies. I wish I could leave the runt with her for as long as she'd tolerate it, but unfortunately with him being male, I don't dare leave him in *too* long.

I'll be selling one off at about 3 1/2 weeks old assuming the vet says the bigger ones are ready to go when they have their check-up on monday and then I'll probably wait until they hit 4 weeks to separate the remaining babies by gender. they're eating me out of house and home when it comes to solid foods, but they also still nurse a fair amount.

I suppose the exact time I wean them will depend on what the vet has to say and whether I see a significant increase in squabbles - lately, I've been hearing "upset baby" squeaking from the cage periodically and when I go investigate, there's usually two lying front-to-front and pushing/shoving at each other.

I'm hoping and praying I get most of them sold off by 6 weeks or so, as I'm gonna have major space issues if I have to keep them each in their own cage while I still have lots of them left. syrians are a pain in the butt with their solo lifestyles sometimes 

I've been slacking on taking photos the last few days, what with Gazzle being under the weather, Trouble getting sick and the holiday, but I'll see if I can get around to snapping some of the hammies, gliders and bunnies today.


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## Imbrium

ok, no pics until someone tells me how to make photobucket stop sucking! it's suddenly changed the link from http://s1183.photobucket.com/albums/x465/mareimbri1/bunnies/ to http://s1183.beta.photobucket.com/user/mareimbri1/library/bunnies/ and the page comes up for a split second and then goes white and won't load and it's p*ssing me the hell off! I dunno if it has something to do with me opting out of the new version when it got forced on us or what.


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## holtzchick

It loaded for me.... Yeah I hate the beta version too though...


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## Imbrium

it apparently works for me if I use internet explorer... thank god, after the 10+ mins it took me to FIND IE on my comp (tried in vain to get rid of it more than once). I freaking hate IE, though >.> I'll deal with pics when I wake up, lol.


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## agnesthelion

Imbrium wrote:


> *sigh* I put the gliders in their big cage instead of the little "nursery" cage for some play time... put Trouble on the wheel to see what she thought of it. I came back 10 mins or so later and she was still sitting on it, so I figured she must not know how to get down. I went to pick her up to take her off the wheel and she was clinging to it for dear life... while I was trying to get her to let go, she suddenly freaked out and started biting the crap out of me! they've never bit me before . oh, and she pooped all over me while I was trying to get her to quit biting, too... and her poop is NOT back to normal yet... so I had to dodge bites while scrambling for paper towels to clean up.



Yikes! This sounds really overwhelming. I sure hope the gliders come around. I remember reading all about bonding with gliders and how it can really be a process. how "runny" is her poop? I also remember reading something that glider poop is moist and it will stick to you. It can vary from toothpaste consistency to more formed pellets. So is it water or just moist and sticky? 
Anyway, hope she comes around and feels better and the bonding starts going better.


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## ldoerr

I would LOVE to see pictures of your bin cages for your hamsters


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## Imbrium

I'll post pics later when I finish making the first cage and feel up to arguing with freaking internet explorer because photobucket and firefox have gone through a nasty break-up >.>

I never did get around to putting a window in the cage that Misty and the babies are in, which in retrospect works out better anyway due to the mesh I bought being 1/2'' spacing - wouldn't want them figuring out how to climb out the bottom of the window! (which is why they're in the bin cage to begin with even though the meshed rabbit cage is a little larger) the bin is so deep that there's no need to put a lid on it, so they get plenty of fresh air that way.

I've almost got the first bin cage ready to go - I just need to drill holes to attach the mesh to the window and then put it on. I used my new dremel to cut the hole this time instead of the hand saw I'd used before... takes about the same amount of time, but the edges are much smoother and it makes a little less mess.

I'm planning to cut windows/drill air holes in all the bins and drill screw holes for attaching the mesh and cutting/prepping all the mesh windows but not actually putting them together until right before someone comes to pick one up, that way the screws don't stop me from being able to nestle the bins into one big stack.

I also picked up a good idea from a toy-making thread on a sugar glider site for how to make sure there are no pointy edges on the screen that could harm a hammy (the mesh has to go on the inside of the bin because otherwise they could chew the cut edge of the plastic).
http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/1089091/Gizmogirl#Post1089095


----------



## Imbrium

bin cage the mom and babies are using (no wheel 'cause little ones can get hurt on it):







I'm gonna use thumbnails for most stuff because there's SO many photos and I still don't know a way to make them a happy medium size instead of either stupidly tiny or stupidly huge - you can click on them to see the larger version... anyway, here's a tutorial for how I'm making the bin cages. it's missing pics of a couple steps 'cause I already had the mesh piece wrapped/finished and didn't feel like cutting another one since I have to do that outside due to clipping off little bits of wire on it that like to fly everywhere.

I started with these bins:





for the first bin, I had to measure out the window... but I saved the piece I cut out so now I can use it as a template for the other bins. there's some dremel marks in the middle 'cause I used it as a test spot to make sure I had the hang of things before I started making real cuts (pic was taken before I got p*ssed off enough to learn how to disable the flash on my camera) 





I decided to do my work in the bunny pen 'cause there's more space than anywhere else in the house and I like being around the bunnies/they enjoy being nosy when I'm doing something in their space that doesn't involve them. they're totally unfazed by power tools, which seems weird (but I'm not complaining). I actually had to shoo Gazzle away at one point because she came up and nose-bonked my foot while I was using the dremel and I didn't want her getting too close.

I got creative a while back and "wired" the bunny pen with an extension cord so that I could easily inflate the air mattress when I sleep in there, so I unwound it from the pen and used that to power the dremel... don't worry, whatever the reason for the electrical tape was, it had nothing to do with bunny teeth, lol (I inherited the cord from my parents, it's probably as old as I am). because the pens are a wonderful 4' high, the bunnies can't stretch up to nom the cord if I coil it up at the top... I zip-tied it along the top edge of the pen on the way back to the outlet.





I used masking tape to mark my cut lines and then used the dremel to cut out the rectangle:







I drilled holes around the window for the screws and ventilation holes in the sides and back of the bin (pics are big because otherwise you can't see the holes)... yes, that's a Gazzle bootie in the first pic:












the dremel was *really* handy because sometimes the drill would leave displaced plastic scraps on the inside of the hole that were attached too tightly to pull off with my fingers - I used the dremel to sand them off (I was too lazy to change bits so I just used the cutting tool to carefully do it - I wasn't actually drilling with the dremel even though that's an option 'cause I also have a drill). after all the cutting and drilling were done, there were lots of little plastic scraps inside the bin that needed to be tossed:





I cut my piece of hardware cloth to be slightly larger than the window, then cut a couple strips from a $3 fleece blanket I got at walmart and wound them around the outer edge of the hardware cloth to cover any pointy bits (totally doesn't matter if the cuts on the fleece are straight). to start it, I just wrapped over the end like you'd do if you were wrapping an ace bandage before starting to go diagonally down the side... same deal when the first strip ran out and I had to start the second. at the end, I just used a largeish crochet hook to pull the end under one of the loops so it wasn't exposed:



 



because I used the 1/2'' mesh, I had to buy washers so that the screws would actually hold the mesh in place... you can buy washers singly at home depot, but if you need a ton it's much cheaper to buy a big package. if you ever build a bin cage, just make sure the washers are at least 1/2'' and the screw heads are too big to fit through the holes in the washers. for the size window I put in it (iirc, around 17'' x 6'', I don't remember exactly), I needed 8 screws to make sure there was no way they could possibly wriggle between the mesh and the bin. the screws start on the inside with the bolt on the outside, btw, 'cause that's better for the hammies. even with the fleece wrapped around the hardware cloth and having to use washers, 3/8'' long screws fit perfectly:



 



looking at the finished window from the outside and then the inside:


 



Nala "investigating" a half-finished bin cage:






pics of the "starter kit" I'm offering with the babies, minus the care packet 'cause I didn't have a finished one printed off and was too lazy to go print one (I even included a boxed hammy for display purposes ):


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## Imbrium

as requested, pics of my menagerie. not many of the bunnies, as they were being somewhat uncooperative (Gaz especially)... the low volume of bunny pics is in no way a reflection on how much I love their fluffy butts 

I had to bribe the hammy babies with kale to get them to stay put long enough to snap photos. the solid babies were much more cooperative than the striped ones.































the gliders:
















Nala... with her usual fiery demon eyes in most pics with a flash, lol:











I tried to take pictures of Gaz, but she ran into the first floor of the condo and gave me "the butt" >.>


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## Imbrium

*agnesthelion wrote: *


> Yikes! This sounds really overwhelming. I sure hope the gliders come around. I remember reading all about bonding with gliders and how it can really be a process. how "runny" is her poop? I also remember reading something that glider poop is moist and it will stick to you. It can vary from toothpaste consistency to more formed pellets. So is it water or just moist and sticky?
> Anyway, hope she comes around and feels better and the bonding starts going better.


it's kind of a pudding consistency... much messier than when I first got them by far . there have been a couple times where it was very watery, but thankfully not many. they're hanging in there, but I'm still not happy about the baytril (and the breeder and someone on the sugar glider forum where I asked about giving probiotics expressed displeasure towards baytril - apparently it's kinda hard on their systems). looking forward to the vet visit monday to talk to him about the issues w/force-feeding baytril and to find out if the hammy runt will be ok, as he's now about half the size of his brothers! ><


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## agnesthelion

Let us know about the vet visit. I would be nervous about forcing feeding the baytril too. Especially while trying to bond and then if it could be hard on their systems too? Not good.

Good luck at the vet and cool hammie cage btw. Very creative and crafty


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## qtipthebun

Omg the hammies finally look like hammies!! I'm that weird person who thinks baby animals aren't cute until their eyes open and they get fur...shoot me, I know.

And I've never seen a sugar glider before, so these pictures are just blowing my mind! I didn't expect them to be so tiny!!


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## Hyatt101

Oh my word, cute pictures!  Sorry the gliders aren't doing well, hopefully they'll come around soon.
Let us know how the vet goes! ray:


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## ldoerr

Thanks for the picks. If my mom would let me I would so get one of those hamsters, but unfortunaltly my parents think that I have WAY to many animals as it is. ( 2 aquariums, 2 rabbits and a cat in a 1 bdrm apt). I LOVE those bin ideas for cages  Such a great way for them to get more space for MUCH cheaper than the pet stores. All of your animals are SUPPER cute


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## Imbrium

*qtipthebun wrote: *


> Omg the hammies finally look like hammies!! I'm that weird person who thinks baby animals aren't cute until their eyes open and they get fur...shoot me, I know.


hehe, I thought they looked like hammies by 2 weeks... they get SO far along before their eyes open! they definitely look like hammies now though.

I'm even more worried about the runt than before. in the last week, he's gone from 1/2 the size of the others to about 1/3 (they've grown FAST). my new digital scale arrived yesterday... he weighs 9-10 grams >< I weighed a couple of his brothers and they were 28g and 35g.

speaking of weights, Nala is 3 lbs, 3.6 oz... Gazzles is a whopping 3 lbs, 11.6 oz! I'm working on weaning them over to grass hays and less pellets, hopefully she'll drop a little weight or at least stop gaining.


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## HolyHandGrenade

:laugh: Wow, it blows my mind that your two buns add up to weigh a little less than my one Monty. I'm *still* getting used to the concept that my bunny is gigantor, hehe


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## Imbrium

lol, I've never met a bunny that big... would love to encounter one some day, though.

bad news from the vet - my hammy runt has a heart defect that has stunted his growth, which is why he hasn't been getting any bigger. he isn't expected to live past a couple more weeks 

I'm going to make sure his short life is a good one... and shower him in treats since I don't have to worry about his long-term health. poor little ill-fated guy! :tears2:


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## Hyatt101

I'm so sorry Jennifer. I know you will give him a good life :'(


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## Imbrium

it's not *too* tough on me, at least, just because I've planned all along to re-home them so I'm anticipating saying goodbye to all but the cream colored baby very soon anyway - it's not the same as losing a "forever" pet. it's still very sad for him, though, that he gets shafted out of a good, long life.


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## whitelop

Well at least his short life will be a great one! 
You're such a good animal mama, I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't beat the "few weeks to live." I'm just really glad he was born to you and not to someone else who didn't care as much. 
The mom was the one your male mated in the pet store right? Didn't you go back and get her?


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## Imbrium

yeah, she's the mom 

I have my doubts about him making it past a couple weeks - he's still around the size the rest were at a week and a half old and he seems a bit shaky on his feet these days, though his appetite's still good. I'm honestly shocked that he's made it this long and that mom didn't cull him early on.


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## whitelop

Yeah I guess that is a little surprising that she didn't. She must be a really loving hammy mama! 

I just saw on another thread that you posted a link about how to make your own carefresh, what an awesome tutorial that was! I think I'll make my own carefresh for just in case situations. Thanks for sharing that!


Oh and earlier I saw another thread where a girl got a harlequin lionhead that looks just like Nala, named Peanut. The first thing that came out of my mouth when I saw that little ball of fluff was "holy ****, she looks just like Nala!" They look as if they could be siblings. How adorable!


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## agnesthelion

Oh so sorry about the little hammie runt


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## Imbrium

the face markings are very different, but beyond that the other bunny looks SO much like Nala!

and yeah, Misty's been a great mom... like not caring if I touched them from day one which is such a no-no with some hamsters. I think she's ready to be rid of the little buggers, though... and I'm about ready to have them separated as well, since I'm suddenly having to clean the cage every few days at the most due to 13 hamsters living in it (which uses up a ton of carefresh due to the bin's size). she seems to desperately want her wheel back - I'm sure she'll run like mad once the babies are gone and I can return it.


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## Imbrium

so I was looking at this site: http://lockhill.net/index.php?act=page&id=13491&str=hay and it says "At Locke Hill Pet, Feed & Lawn Supply, no matter your order size, itâs always in stock. We can handle even the largest orders of hay, feeds and other essentials for your livestock." and lists oat hay as something they sell. I thought, "holy crap, a place that actually sells oat hay by the bale!"

I get all the way over there and the only oat hay they sell is the dinky little 3 lb or whatever oxbow bags for almost $5 each >.>

it wasn't too far out of the way, at least - the place is basically down the street from my sugar gliders' breeder, who I had to visit anyway 'cause she likes to have a visit after 2 weeks to check up on everything, teach you how to trim nails, etc.

I had to come home with a bale of coastal when I promised the girls oat, though, so they'll be none to happy about that  (I'm having to wean them off of alfalfa now, which isn't going over well at all)


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## ldoerr

Sorry to hear about the runt  We all know that you do the best for him possible. (my parents would NEVER take a hamster to the vet. I even had a hamster that had a tumor 1/2 the size of its body and they still would not take it in [RIP Cuddles]). 

As for the feed store, did you ask if they sold oat hay by the bale or if they could get you a bale of it? Often times you can special request something and they will get it for you.


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## Imbrium

the only way they can get a larger thing of oat hay is through oxbow, where they get the small bags. they're gonna find out how much it costs from oxbow and then give me a call... but, seeing as how it has the oxbow name attached to it, I know it's gonna be a hell of a lot more than the $10.50 per actual bale that the coastal costs.


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## Imbrium

I took Nala and Gaz outside yesterday evening to romp in the yard... eventually, my neighbor came and joined us. it was a bit chilly (60F, maybe, or a little cooler) and the bunns got pretty snuggly after they were done running around! Gaz always lets Jeanne hold her for ages, but Nala normally gets antsy after a few minutes. surprisingly, Nala let me hold and cuddle her for a good half an hour!

I also realized today I can't even remember the last time I found pee outside the litter box. hooray for spaying!

on the downside, somebunny chewed through one of the cords on the hammock, so now I have to wrestle it out of the condo and try to fix it up >.>

the hammy babies are super cute, looking more and more like real hamsters. the runt is up to 13g now, which is a pretty big improvement considering he was 9-10g the other day. he's still eating well and playing/snuggling with his siblings. I have them in a separate cage right now so mommy can get some alone time and play on her wheel.

one of my gliders now has almost-normal poop, though the other's is still pretty bad. with some tips from the breeder, I've gotten Trouble to (mostly) quit biting me. they're also crabbing less.


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## Imbrium

I decided to give mommy hammy a break/some alone time with her wheel, so I put the babies in a new bin cage and took them to the bunny pen to play with them. I ended up leaving them in there and came back a while later to find Nala staring into the bin cage's window like she was watching hammy TV! amazingly, she stayed in that same mesmerized position long enough for me to rush back to my room for the camera AND the pic came out pretty good despite it being totally dark in the room aside from the TV being on.












the bunnies' project for the week... I think they're done with it, as they haven't worked on it for a couple days now:



 



more pics:


























when I lifted up the wooden bridge:






some pics I took of the runt and the cream-colored girl the other night... poor little runt is so precious.






trying to shove a piece of green bean into his already over-filled cheek pouches:






next to a normal size sibling:


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## holtzchick

Awh that runt is precious. If he is gaining weight do you think he has a chance of survival?

I think it is sweet the way Nala waa so into watching the hammies.. 

As for your gliders, is it just a stress thing that's making their poop so runny? Are all gliders like that when they change homes? (aside from trouble of course because I know she has an infection)


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## Imbrium

well, the infection is/was something that can be passed between gliders, hence why the vet had me giving them both baytril - hurricane started showing symptoms a day or so after the vet trip, iirc. stress *can* cause diarrhea in gliders, I believe... but it's not a "normal" thing to have happen when they're rehomed.

as for the runt, I really don't know... he's a little trooper for sure, but since I hadn't been weighing him before, I have no idea whether he actually stopped growing at some point or has just been growing very slowly all along. I'll check him again in a day or two. I'm not holding my breath, though.

and yeah, I laughed my ass off when I walked into the room and saw Nala watching them, hehe. they're very intrigued by all the fuss over the new babies. they're also more affectionate/attentive than usual lately because I've been "starving them to death"... or so they'd claim. (I'm weaning them off alfalfa which means once veggies/pellets are gone, they're stuck with coastal other than a couple handfuls of alfalfa each day which always disappear in minutes)


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## ldoerr

Nala is so funny  The babies look like real hamsters (they have for a while). Also I love that picture of all 12 of them when you lifted the log  Hope that trouble gets better soon


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## Imbrium

I really need to stop forgetting how stupid it is to go to walmart on the weekend. no offense to those of you who breed, but if I ruled the world there would be a strictly enforced leash law for children. not that *all* children would be better off (from my point of view) if leashed... but definitely about 90% of them. while it didn't apply to this trip, children would also be banned from stores between the hours of midnight and 4 am as they especially irk me in walmart when they're cranky in the middle of the night and parents shouldn't be hauling their poor kids around at that hour anyway.

if I ruled the world, it would be legal for me (and only me... plus anyone I personally deputized) to bring a cattle prod into walmart and use it on people who shop in small groups and get so wrapped up in talking about stupid stuff that none of them notice they're inconveniencing half a dozen people who would like to get around them (also if they're walking side-by-side very slowly and spread out across the whole aisle making it impossible for anyone wanting to walk normal speed to pass them).

while I'm plotting my dictatorship, I'd also place a moratorium on music in stores, build some sort of noise-reducing force-field around myself (because some people are prone to sensory overload and would prefer not to have a panic attack in the walmart, tyvm) and require any store the size of wal-mart to have at least 3-4 strategically placed water fountains instead of just the one in the very very front and the one hidden in layaway that I always forget about when I'm dying of thirst after being in there for two freaking hours.

I'll update on the pets later, I'm worn out from shopping and being awake a bit too long.


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## lauratunes12

People at my school walk like that, and it has made me late for class before.

They're all so cute! Poor hammy runt though, at least he can spend his days with lots of love surrounding him!

I also have sensory issues(I pass out when there is too much noise). Nala looks exactly like my dogs at Faith's cage.


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## qtipthebun

Your Walmart rant makes me wonder if you and I are actually the same person. That sounds pretty much like something I say every time I leave the house.


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## holtzchick

If I had it my way, every family in the world would only be allowed to have 1 child... Guess I would be alive then but, eh. 

Walmart is always packed, sometimes I stop in on my way home from work and regret it.


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## agnesthelion

Imbrium wrote:


> no offense to those of you who breed, but if I ruled the world there would be a strictly enforced leash law for children
> 
> long.



Wow.


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## Imbrium

*lauratunes12 wrote: *


> People at my school walk like that, and it has made me late for class before.
> 
> They're all so cute! Poor hammy runt though, at least he can spend his days with lots of love surrounding him!


god, I remember highschool... I was always griping about idiots walking -5 miles an hour spread across the whole freaking hall.

my runt is suddenly gaining a LOT of weight! he's up to 25g now!

*holtzchick wrote: *


> If I had it my way, every family in the world would only be allowed to have 1 child... Guess I would be alive then but, eh.


more like some of them shouldn't be allowed to have ANY... there are others that I feel are ok with multiples.

*agnesthelion wrote: *


> Imbrium wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> no offense to those of you who breed, but if I ruled the world there would be a strictly enforced leash law for children
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow.
Click to expand...

in my defense, I was counting you in the 10% where it wasn't actually needed - from what I know of you, I just can't see you allowing your son to run amok in a walmart, pissing off all the other customers 

it's just one of those things that would be a blanket rule because it's easier than sorting out who needs the leash and who doesn't... not to mention having to hear all the kids on leashes b*tch and whine about "well how come HE doesn't have to be on a leash??"


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## holtzchick

Imbrium wrote:


> *lauratunes12 wrote: *
> 
> 
> 
> People at my school walk like that, and it has made me late for class before.
> 
> They're all so cute! Poor hammy runt though, at least he can spend his days with lots of love surrounding him!
> 
> 
> 
> god, I remember highschool... I was always griping about idiots walking -5 miles an hour spread across the whole freaking hall.
> 
> my runt is suddenly gaining a LOT of weight!Â  he's up to 25g now!
> 
> *holtzchick wrote: *
> 
> 
> 
> If I had it my way, every family in the world would only be allowed to have 1 child... Guess I would be alive then but, eh.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> more like some of them shouldn't be allowed to have ANY... there are others that I feel are ok with multiples.
> 
> *agnesthelion wrote: *
> 
> 
> 
> Imbrium wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> no offense to those of you who breed, but if I ruled the world there would be a strictly enforced leash law for children
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Wow.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> in my defense, I was counting you in the 10% where it wasn't actually needed - from what I know of you, I just can't see you allowing your son to run amok in a walmart, p*ssing off all the other customers
> 
> it's just one of those things that would be a blanket rule because it's easier than sorting out who needs the leash and who doesn't... not to mention having to hear all the kids on leashes b*tch and whine about "well how come HE doesn't have to be on a leash??"
Click to expand...


Lol yeah.... Awh I can't believe the runt is gaining so well!!! 
I'm rooting for him


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## Hyatt101

Me too! <3


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## JBun

Imbrium wrote:


> I really need to stop forgetting how stupid it is to go to walmart on the weekend. no offense to those of you who breed, but if I ruled the world there would be a strictly enforced leash law for children. not that *all* children would be better off (from my point of view) if leashed... but definitely about 90% of them. while it didn't apply to this trip, children would also be banned from stores between the hours of midnight and 4 am as they especially irk me in walmart when they're cranky in the middle of the night and parents shouldn't be hauling their poor kids around at that hour anyway.
> 
> if I ruled the world, it would be legal for me (and only me... plus anyone I personally deputized) to bring a cattle prod into walmart and use it on people who shop in small groups and get so wrapped up in talking about stupid stuff that none of them notice they're inconveniencing half a dozen people who would like to get around them (also if they're walking side-by-side very slowly and spread out across the whole aisle making it impossible for anyone wanting to walk normal speed to pass them).
> 
> while I'm plotting my dictatorship, I'd also place a moratorium on music in stores, build some sort of noise-reducing force-field around myself (because some people are prone to sensory overload and would prefer not to have a panic attack in the walmart, tyvm) and require any store the size of wal-mart to have at least 3-4 strategically placed water fountains instead of just the one in the very very front and the one hidden in layaway that I always forget about when I'm dying of thirst after being in there for two freaking hours.
> 
> I'll update on the pets later, I'm worn out from shopping and being awake a bit too long.



Just remember, we were all once, those annoying kids that other adults were complaining about at the time  

It's nice to hear I'm not the only one who gets sensory overload from excessive noise. Sometimes I just can't wait to get out of that store, it can be sooo crazy there.

That little runt is too cute!!! I would just want to cuddle him all the time, but he's sooo little


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## Imbrium

*JBun wrote: *


> Just remember, we were all once, those annoying kids that other adults were complaining about at the time


yes, but when *I* was a little kid, parents of obnoxious little kids put them on leashes. I kid you not. I remember when I was little, seeing the occasional child (usually a little boy) wearing a harness and leash and wondering how bad that kid was that their parents leashed them . no one does that any more, at least that I've seen. just seeing other kids put on leashes would be enough to scare many of the others into line, I think (certainly worked that way with me, lol). my parents also never took me anywhere in the middle of the night 'cause my bedtime was 7-9 pm (got later as I got older).


----------



## holtzchick

Imbrium wrote:


> *JBun wrote: *
> 
> 
> 
> Just remember, we were all once, those annoying kids that other adults were complaining about at the time
> 
> 
> 
> yes, but when *I* was a little kid, parents of obnoxious little kids put them on leashes.Â  I kid you not.Â  I remember when I was little, seeing the occasional child (usually a little boy) wearing a harness and leash and wondering how bad that kid was that their parents leashed them .Â  no one does that any more, at least that I've seen.Â  just seeing other kids put on leashes would be enough to scare many of the others into line, I think (certainly worked that way with me, lol).Â  my parents also never took me anywhere in the middle of the night 'cause my bedtime was 7-9 pm (got later as I got older).
Click to expand...


I remember seeing one kid with his grandmother on a harness and leash and he kept the leash stretched the ENTIRE time with his arms stretched out pulling her in every which direction.... At tha point I thought riddalin


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## whitelop

holtzchick wrote:


> I remember seeing one kid with his grandmother on a harness and leash and he kept the leash stretched the ENTIRE time with his arms stretched out pulling her in every which direction.... At tha point I thought riddalin



LOL! They don't make the leashes like they did when I was a kid. Now they have the little animals as a backpack with a leash coming out of it! hahah. Its like supposed to soften the blow of looking at a leash, like we don't know what is going on. lmao. 
I think the kids who ARE on leashes, their parents know. My husband and I call the kids "runners", because they'll be walking next to their parents fine, then all of a sudden take a really hard left and take off running. Most of the time, its in the parking lot. Thats when a leash would come in handy, and clothes line that sucker before he gets hit by a car. 

I think its boy nature to be completely insane. I know my son is, he is wild from the time he wakes up until he goes to sleep. But he doesn't have a leash. I just keep him in the cart, and he does fine. He loves going to the store. 
Hell, he'll probably need a leash in a few years. Its okay, I've come to terms with it.


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## Imbrium

I see nothing wrong with/degrading about leashes, lol. I think they get a bad rap for no good reason. keeps the kids out of oncoming traffic, from getting lost in the store, from being snatched by a predator, all that good stuff - seems like a sound parenting decision to me  (then again, I don't have or ever plan to have kids that don't have paws, lol)


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## ldoerr

Imbrium wrote:


> I see nothing wrong with/degrading about leashes, lol. I think they get a bad rap for no good reason. keeps the kids out of oncoming traffic, from getting lost in the store, from being snatched by a predator, all that good stuff - seems like a sound parenting decision to me  (then again, I don't have or ever plan to have kids that don't have paws, lol)



I am SOOO with you. Leashes are a need that most do not use. I also will NEVER have kids. I do not like them at all.


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## Hyatt101

Lauren, I'm mildly offended! Just kidding


----------



## agnesthelion

Leashes for children are very controversial. Maybe it's a regional thing or a socio-economic thing.....but where I live and the people I'm around, leashes are strongly looked down upon. Here where I live, we tend to see leashes used by, for lack of a better way to say it, "trashier" parents. (that's just where I live no offense meant towards anyone who uses them). I would NEVER use a leash though. But then again, I would never need to. My son minds and does what I tell him to do. If not, we leave. I had to leave the grocery store one time and that was 2 years ago when he was 2. I've never had an issue since. He doesn't run from me, have tantrums or cause problems in public.
I thought it was ironic you are complaining about people at WalMart of all places, haha. It's walmart!!!! I refuse to even shop there! Lol. And you refer to people with children as people who "breed"? Yikes. Well, I understand your perspective now I guess........


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## Imbrium

I like SOME children, lol... but way too many aren't properly trained. I do refer to people who have children as "breeders" because technically, you DID choose to breed, lol. I don't necessarily mean it in a derogatory way... depends on the type of "breeder" - there's a "backyard breeder" version of parents (folks who really shouldn't have been allowed to procreate and whose children should be on leashes in public) and then there's GOOD parents with adorable, well behaved children who can shop in the same store as me without being viewed as an obstacle. I also frown upon people who have an adult:child ratio higher than 1:1, but that's just me (I feel the same way about cats (and I LOVE cats) - you should NEVER let them outnumber you!) . it's usually the people who are outnumbered by their kids that bug me.


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## whitelop

*looks around at all the cats and pouts* My cats out number me. I have 4. My MIL says that people with more than one cat are on their way to becoming crazy people. 

I agree with Lisa about the leashes though. I think a leash is appropriate at say Disneyworld. Where there are 30,000 people and you have one child that refuses to hold your hand. Strap that kid up and be done with it. I think people just don't have a good enough handle on their kids, especially not to take them into stores. I find myself a lot of the time, wanting to parent someone elses child for them. I have also told an older child in a store who was acting a fool that I would and I quote "I will hit you like I own you, so stop your crap or you'll feel my wrath" I said it very calm, but firm. That kid peed his pants that day.(yeah, y'all think about that. I AM a parent and I WAS a nanny)
I DO shop at walmart though, one of the down-falls of not living near much is I'm limited to what stores I have. Unfortunately, walmart is one of the closest stores to me, and its very convenient for so many things, so its worth it. 

I do agree with Jennifer though, about the 'breeder' part of it. We did choose to have kids. hahaha. So I guess technically we ARE breeders! My friend, her mom and myself went yard sale-ing in a really nice neighborhood one Saturday. The longer we walked around, the more we noticed that ALL the women looked the same and were dressed the same. We then started to notice that they ALL had kids around the same age. Like in groups, like they had 10 year olds, 8 year olds, 4 year olds and then like 2 year olds. ALL OF THEM! We talked about it later and we labeled them as the 'breeders' because the sheer number of children in that neighborhood and the similarities in ages. Its like they purposely had kids so they could be pregnant at the same time and their kids could always play with each other and go to school together. I think they may have been the definition of breeders in people.


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## agnesthelion

I guess I just take mild offense to the breeder term. I feel like it's a condescending term because it's usually applied towards animals. I also don't "train" my child I "raise" my child. I also find that the people who think they are the best parents are people that don't have children 
That being said, my hubby and I are done with one child. I actually don't like children either! Hahaha I mean, other peoples kids tend to get on my nerves. But I don't judge other families on the amount that they have. You can just as easily raise one brat or 5 brats...it's your parenting style that matters. Although it would literally drive me clinically insane to have, say, 4 kids....some families manage wonderfully. 
I get your perspective though. You don't have kids so you judge people that "breed". I know many people like you. But of course you are definetly entitled to your opinion.


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## qtipthebun

Kids scare me. They bite. And their teeth are sharper than bunnies'. (I used to teach pre-school...best form of birth control EVER...spend every day around 200 children)!!!

Buuuuut....what I hopped over here to say was thank you for Tippy's present!!! You should have seen her playing with the slinky last night! She was so amused...until it got stuck on her foot, chased her around the room, and then she foot flicked it!


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## holtzchick

agnesthelion said:


> I also find that the people who think they are the best parents are people that don't have children



Oh Lisa, but I really am the best parent... *bunny* parent that is   

Awh, now I wish I had been part of this Christmas exchange, had I not been so busy with the move and settling in :/ theres always next year!


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## qtipthebun

I'm really wishing I had gotten in on the card swap!!! I hear some people are going to have pictures of bunnies on their cards! Maybe next year Tippy and I will join in on that.


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## Imbrium

whitelop said:


> *looks around at all the cats and pouts* My cats out number me. I have 4. My MIL says that people with more than one cat are on their way to becoming crazy people.



my best friend moved in with me for a while after my mom died. we had my mom's cat, Gir (I named him ) and my precious kitty... then one day my friend and her boyfriend were at his apartment complex getting his mail and they found this adorable little dumpster kitten that was friendly as could be despite being abandoned. Jason (the boyfriend) was worried I was going to be mad, but Taryn was like "you don't know her at all" lol... they got back to the house, she knocked on my bedroom door and when I opened it and saw her holding little Seiko, my heart melted and I said "of course we can keep her" (I even paid to get her spayed).

three cats + two people (the boyfriend didn't live with us... at first... long story that makes me very grumpy, I couldn't stand the guy and he was a godawful housemate) is what led to my "more cats than people" rule. maybe it was just our specific cats, but I swear to god they conspired against us. you'd come into a room and all three would be clustered together and they'd just FREEZE, like you caught them being up to no good. you also never knew who the naughty cat was when someone did something bad. I love cats, but man did I get creeped out when they outnumbered us .



agnesthelion said:


> I guess I just take mild offense to the breeder term. I feel like it's a condescending term because it's usually applied towards animals. I also don't "train" my child I "raise" my child.
> 
> I get your perspective though. You don't have kids so you judge people that "breed". I know many people like you. But of course you are definetly entitled to your opinion.



I honestly don't judge people for "breeding"... I judge them if they're bad parents and they breed. I also don't mean "breeder" in a bad way as a blanket term, it just works well as a description for people who have kids. I suppose "parents" would work, but it just feels weird now that "parents" can be younger than I am. I'm still young enough to think of parents as people old enough to have given birth to me.

I may occasionally refer to breeders in a negative way (most often when there aren't any of them in the conversation, and if there are I at least preface my rant with an apology because I'm polite enough that I wouldn't be saying that stuff in front of them if I felt it applied to them), but it's the same false generalization as when I say "I hate people" (I really do hate a lot of them, but obviously not all as I love coming to RO to chat with you guys).

I'm completely capable of judging parents as individuals and I think some of them do a wonderful job... but there are a lot of crappy parents in the world just like there are a lot of crappy bunny owners in the world. if I'm at walmart at 3 am and there are kids around, take a wild guess as to whether it's a good parent or a crappy one.

I guess what it comes down to is that it's not that I don't like kids... it's that I dislike a LOT of adults and since most people choose to have kids, it's logical to assume that I dislike a lot of adults that have kids. those of you in this conversation who have children are NOT people that I dislike and therefore have kids that I wouldn't dislike.


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## whitelop

Imbrium said:


> I'm completely capable of judging parents as individuals and I think some of them do a wonderful job... but there are a lot of crappy parents in the world just like there are a lot of crappy bunny owners in the world. if I'm at walmart at 3 am and there are kids around, take a wild guess as to whether it's a good parent or a crappy one.
> 
> I guess what it comes down to is that it's not that I don't like kids... it's that I dislike a LOT of adults and since most people choose to have kids, it's logical to assume that I dislike a lot of adults that have kids. those of you in this conversation who have children are NOT people that I dislike and therefore have kids that I wouldn't dislike.



I completely agree with you. I go to the store a lot of the time in the middle of the night, after my son has long been in bed. Its quiet at night and I can take my time in the store and not have to deal with the stupid people. But occasionally I see someone in there at midnight-2am with a kid. Usually a toddler and it really urks me. The last time I saw a kid in walmart at like 11pm, it looked like she was my son's age and it was COLD outside and she just had pj's on with no socks, coat or hat. Just the little cotton, like disney pj's. (people with kids will know what I'm talking about, the matching sets) I mean, I put my cowboy boots on because they're lined and my feet were freezing and I was double layered, it was like 25* and she had basically no clothes on. I was pissed! Like to the point of saying things out loud to the cashier. THAT is not a good parent! 

To be honest, I feel the same way about kids. I know that sounds crazy, since I AM a parent and I WAS a nanny. I loved the kids I had when I was a nanny and of course, I love my son. But other peoples kids, like kids I don't know, I don't really like. I would of course, help a child in need or a kid that fell down or whatever, my compassion for children covers that. BUT, for me it depends heavily on the person the child is attached too. Like, if I see your kid acting a fool in the store and you not doing anything about it, chances are, we would not be friends. And even my friends with kids, I don't really like their kids. lol. That sounds bad. Like when I was pregnant, a friend of a friend had a 1 year old and she asked me if I wanted to hold him to "get used to it" I just looked at her and said, 1. this is a 1 year old, there is NO holding that. 2. I know what its like to hold a kid, I spend more of my day with kids than you do, so I get it. 3. I don't like other peoples children. She just looked at me. 

With that being said, I feel like if I met any of you with kids, I would love your kids because I really like all of you. Like Lisa, I feel like if we ever met, I would love your son to death because I KNOW you're a good parent and you would never take to child to walmart with no clothes on in the cold in the middle of the night! And I'm sure your son is very well behaved. Like mine, *watches son ride the cat through the living room, rolls eyes* lmao. :rabbithop


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## agnesthelion

Oh yes I agree parents with kids at walmart at 3am are probably not good parents. Lol. Sometimes it's easy to tell a bad parent from a good parent. Likemthose. Sometimes it's not though. Sometimes it could be a mom having a bad day. Being a parent is the hardest. Job. Ever. You can't even wrap your mind around how difficult it is until you are one. So saying all kids should be on leashes is a bit extreme. Kids will act up one time or another. I remember before I had kids (when I was the best parent ever, haha) I would see a kid having a tantrum and I admit, I would judge the mom. Like, control your kid! Then I had a child myself and was humbled beyond words. And so glad I never spoke my judgemental thoughts out loud to anyone so no one had to hear how wrong I was  it's just one of those things in life that you can only learn through experiencing it yourself. So when a person with no children calls parents breeders and speaks as if mandatory leash laws and their ideas on parenting would solve all the kid "issues" it can come off a little harsh. But no worries.  as I said, I don't really like kids either. I'm only having one!! I actually remember in my 20's I never even wanted children! So I understand how kids can be annoying sometimes...no doubt!


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## whitelop

agnesthelion said:


> I actually remember in my 20's I never even wanted children! So I understand how kids can be annoying sometimes...no doubt!


I was actually the same way. Well, not in my 20's clearly, because I am in my 20's. I was in my teenage years and I NEVER wanted to have kids. I didn't want to be responsible for another life. Then at 18 I became a nanny and changed my mind a little, then I had a kid at 21, so that DEFINITELY changed my mind! hahaha. By then though, I had already cared for 3 children full time, but being a nanny is COMPLETELY different than being a parent! I could go home to my own life when I was a nanny, now my life is my home and child. And now speaking of children, my son is feeding goldfish to one of our cats. Ughhh. :headsmack


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## ldoerr

I am ALMOST 20 (less than a month) and do not EVER want to have kids. I think that the only way I will have kids is if I adopt one that I do not have to potty train and can speak English already (+ a few other requirements). I am just not a fan of kids. I have been around them a lot and do not like them at any age, even teens (and yes I am 19 so technically a teen myself, still never like the kids I am around no mater their age).


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## holtzchick

Enough talk of children! How are your animals ? Have you started looking for homes for the hammies? How is the bonding going with your gliders? And last but not least how the heck are your bunnies doing? :happybunny:


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## whitelop

:yeahthat: YES! How are your little adorable hammies? They must be real hammies now!


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## Hyatt101

Did you get Bean for Nala and Gaz? We need more pictures of all your animals!


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## whitelop

I just took a nap and i had a dream you were getting another bun. Lol. I wish i could remember the name of the bun in the dream. It was strange. Lmao.


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## Imbrium

agnesthelion said:


> Being a parent is the hardest. Job. Ever. You can't even wrap your mind around how difficult it is until you are one. So saying all kids should be on leashes is a bit extreme. Kids will act up one time or another. I remember before I had kids (when I was the best parent ever, haha) I would see a kid having a tantrum and I admit, I would judge the mom. Like, control your kid!


to be fair, I KNOW it's the hardest job ever and, between being a very analytical person and having taken care of children a lot when I was younger (primarily deaf children who often also had learning disabilities/social issues, because my mom worked at a school for the deaf), I can imagine just how difficult it is. that's why I don't ever plan to have any children - I think that some people shouldn't be parents and I feel that I'm one of them.

fwiw, if I see a kid having a tantrum in the store and their parent standing there trying to shut them up, my instinctive response is to shoot them a sympathetic look - kids can be **** stubborn and even the best parent can't control their kid's behavior 100%. it's frustrating and embarrassing to be the one standing there trying to reign in a tantrum and the last thing they need is everyone glaring at them, but part of being a good parent is not caving in to every tantrum. sometimes the best thing you can do is drag them out of the store and let them cry themselves out in the parking lot.



agnesthelion said:


> So when a person with no children calls parents breeders and speaks as if mandatory leash laws and their ideas on parenting would solve all the kid "issues" it can come off a little harsh. But no worries.


you've gotta remember, I don't associate the same negative connotations with "breeders" that you do... and I wasn't asserting mandatory leash laws as a *serious* solution, as was evidenced by the fact that I prefaced it with "if I ruled the world" and followed it with a comment about "not that I think ALL children would be better off (from my point of view) if leashed" then sequed into a rant about how if I ruled the world, I would be able to bring a cattle prod into walmart and use it on people (because adults can be pains in the butt, too) and various other things I would do if I were dictator of the world. as far as other "ideas on parenting" that I said I wanted to inflict on others, the only one I mentioned was that kids don't belong in walmart between midnight and 4 am... because they don't. I would never actually use a cattle prod on a person any more than I would go around leashing up children. it was just a rant.

anyway, I'll try to update about the animals later tonight. I've been avoiding my blog for a while now because I got pissed off - seems like every freaking part of the process of getting pictures from my camera to photobucket (or even the RO gallery) has managed to become fubar. every time I work out one issue, another one pops up. I think shockwave and windows explorer have both been major culprits. when windows explorer acts up, my comp maxes out on memory and becomes unusuable, forcing me to pull the battery and the plug and do a forced reboot, losing whatever I was working on. (also, before I got pissed off with the comp, I got really behind on the forums in general because of all the new changes)


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## Imbrium

so... things that have happened that I meant to blog about at the time but didn't...

sometimes I sleep with the gliders when I sleep during the day (since they're nocturnal too) - I put them in a drawstring pouch with my hand in the pouch and tighten the drawstring around my wrist. they sleep in my hand and if they wake up and get restless or thirsty or run out of snacks, they get really squirmy and nibble at my hand to wake me up. well, one evening last week, I woke up and the first thing I did was move my hand to say hello to the gliders... and promptly realized there was only one in the pouch! I determined it was Hurricane who was loose - I must not have tightened the pouch enough - and started frantically looking around my "bed" (had slept on the air mattress in the bunny pen) to see if she'd curled up beside me.

she had not.

I phoned the breeder for advice on what to do because she could be anywhere in the house and I didn't know where to start looking. as the breeder was walking me through what to do, I heard noise coming from the bunny condo behind me even though the bunnies weren't in it. I turned around and there was Hurricane, prancing around the condo! man, did she give me a scare ><

Trouble is still really bitchy... crabbing and biting a ton. every time I feel like I've really made progress, we suddenly take two steps backward. I'm also a little concerned 'cause her little butt is bare. I assumed it was because of the diarrhea incident (between me having to groom her a lot and her/Hurricane grooming her a lot), but the diarrhea has been gone for over a week and, if anything, her butt seems to be getting worse. I catch Hurricane licking Trouble's privates an awful lot and it's making me worry that there's an overgrooming issue.

another interesting thing that happened... I had the girls in their outside pen and brought my toy-making kit with me to work on toys for the gliders. I caught weird movements out of the corner of my eye... turned to see what was going on and Gaz was HUMPING Nala!! I pushed her off instinctively because she was humping the wrong end and she started right back up! she took the hint the second time, though. oddly, Nala just sat there and took it with this "are you done yet?" look on her face... but later, she started a chase with Gaz that resulted in a few clumps of white hair being pulled out. thankfully, I broke it up and they've been back to normal ever since.

Gaz is having her first molt. it's horrible. WAY worse than Nala's. that short hair just flies EVERYWHERE. she loathes the furminator, too, so it's such a struggle to groom her. I need to try the trick with dipping my hands in water... at one point, I resorted to wrapping masking tape around my hand and lightly (and carefully) rolling my hand over her which worked pretty well. so far, the best way to collect loose fur seems to be to wear a shirt that doesn't match her hair >.>

she's got some funky-looking molt lines:
















there's been a slaughter in my bunny garden ... which really pisses me off 'cause it got down to 30-31F for a couple nights and I actually remembered to bring the planters in.

it started with some holes in the raddicio that had me concerned, but I figured one more night outside wouldn't make a big diff so I left the plant there and figured I'd deal with it later. oh, how wrong I was!











and upon closer inspection, my fennel is missing ALL the leaves and my mint is missing almost all of them, so I assume those plants are on their way to dying. basil (x2), orange mint and sage are all that survived the slaughter.

after rushing my ravaged raddicio inside, I discovered one of these little squirmy bastards on it - I can only assume my plant went into its tummy and the tummies of its stupid friends:






so my garden is a wreck and I can't even replant it until I figure out how to stop those things from eating it again ssd:

also, Nala and Gaz have been demolishing the coroplast in the condo ssd:

they've decided they hate coastal and won't eat it even if they're really hungry, so I've got an entire bale of hay and no use for it. I had to special-order oat hay for them. when the chick from the feed store left me a voicemail with a price quote and again when I called back to tell them to go ahead and place the order, I could've sworn she said "29 lbs for $6.99"... which is no 80 lbs for $10.50 but still a great deal. yeah, not so much. when I called to see if it was in yet, it turns out it was $*26.99. *sigh*. I bought it anyway because that's all the darn bunnies will eat as far as grass hay goes (how both of them are SO picky in the exact same way is beyond me, but I guess it could be worse - they could be picky in different ways).

the oat hay is pissing me off, though. it's FULL of oats and pulling them all out gets SO tedious! it really doesn't help that I've been having a horrible carpal-tunnel flare-up for the last week and a half or so (another reason I've been slacking on updating this). it's not that bad at lunch, dinner and bed-time feedings, but when I first wake up, my right hand is often practically worthless and their hay is always in dire need of refreshing. Nala thumps at me a lot for taking too long with the hay, too. on days when my wrist/hand are really bad, I just say "screw it" and give them enough alfalfa to last them 2-3h and deal with the oat hay later in my day.

anyway, that's enough for now... will update on the hammies and such later.


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## agnesthelion

Seriously jennifer don't even worry about it  maybe I was too sensitive and I hate to think I made you feel the need to explain. OR maybe I just have a subconscious negative reaction to the word "breeder" (  ) either way no hard feelings and I'm sorry I acted defensively, after re-reading my entries I feel a bit silly. I guess I just get a bit too passionate about things sometimes!! Lol

I'm off to feed my son dinner so couldn't read your recent entry and pictures. I'll be back later.....


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## whitelop

LMFAO! Jennifer, I swear you crack me up. (I can tell by your slight use of naughty language that you're trying REALLY hard not to let it all loose. I'm the same way. The only time my mouth is clean is when I'm on the forum! lol) 

I would have flipped out if I felt in the pouch and there was only ONE glider! hahaha. I would have been in a total panic, as I'm sure you were. 
I'm glad she was close by though. I don't know anything about gliders so I can't help you with the bitchyness. I hope she gets better though! 

Look at Gaz molting! That is too funny. I'm sure its not for you because of all the fur. Foo doesn't molt like that, she just sheds the fur or pulls it out herself. I have a slicker brush for Foo and I like it a lot better and she likes it better than the furminator. 

As for your garden, I posted on the thread about it and you should get some diatomaceous earth. I can't remember how much we spend on it, but we get a 50 lb bag. Its a mineral and its a super super fine powder. Its not good to breathe in because its not good for the respiratory system. But its totally safe to put on animals and to be around animals. I put it on all my garden plants, flowers, chickens, chicken coop, around my house. For me it comes in a paper bag, so I have to put it in bins to keep it from getting wet in the shed. It makes a huge mess, so don't use it in the house, it will ruin your vacuum. 
It is a magical thing though. It acts as little glass shards and cuts into the exoskeleton of the bug and takes the moisture out of the bug. It worked on the similar caterpillars that were bothering my squash plants. I had to do it every few weeks, but it was definitely worth it. A little bit goes a long way.


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## agnesthelion

Omg a missing glider would have freaked me out too! Glad you found her safe and sound. Now curious, where were the buns? And if they would have been around the glider what would have happened? I hope you can figure out the over grooming/ bare bottom issue. Seems like that one has been a bit challenging.

Archie is molting reeeeallly bad right now too. And yes, short hair is worse than long Lionhead hair! I swear Archies is just floating everywhere.

Bummer that nala and gaz had a scuffle again, I sure hope you can figure it out and it will stop once and for all. I hate hearing of bonded pair issues.


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## Imbrium

the bunns were right outside the condo by their litter box/hay. I have NO idea how long Hurricane was loose for - could easily have been a few hours and I wouldn't be surprised if she and the bunnies *did* have a run-in. the bunnies are indifferent towards the gliders, as is Hurricane towards them... Trouble seems a bit afraid of them sometimes, though that may just be when they startle her by suddenly appearing at the side of the tent during tent time.

I'm not sure what the girls' deal is, but I'm starting to suspect that random tiffs are par for the course with same-sex bonds. as long as no one is getting hurt and the bond is easily mended, I'm not really worried about it.


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## Imbrium

Rachel Maddow's "best new thing in the world" for tonight - the C.A.L.M. act goes into place as of midnight (aka now for me)... it is now prohibited for commercials to be significantly louder than the TV show they're interrupting! *does a major happy dance* that's a HUGE pet peeve of mine and someone went and made it illegal


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## Imbrium

anyway, back to updating... forgot the other naughty thing the bunnies did this week - they got into my toy-making bags (for the suggies) and nommed some plastic stuff:






my hammy runt is 16.5 days into his "1-2 week" guesstimated life span and as of last night was up to 42g!

the hammy food I buy is a lab block style food so that they can't pick and choose what pieces they eat and unbalance their diet... it's been irking me because there's like a cup of dust/crumbles in the bottom of each 5 lb bag and it's not really cheap food (and I go through a lot with 14 hammies):






I kept thinking there HAD to be a way to make that into something usable and finally scrounged up/modified a recipe. details about what I did can be found in this thread on the hammy forum I use: http://hamsterhideout.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=72582&hl= . long story short, I mixed up the pellet dust/crumbles, some of the alfalfa dust/crumbles from the bag of alfalfa I bought my bunnies that turned out to be worthless for them (I added the alfalfa 'cause I had it and because their food's fiber is a little low so it needs to be supplemented (as do almost all hammy foods for one reason or another ><)), eggs (mostly just whites) and some other stuff and made these:






the "cookies" were a BIG hit - here's some pics of the hammies enjoying them:









(that's the runt on the right-hand side)


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## Imbrium

random pics of the menagerie...

three action shots of the boys running in their wheel (it's the runt, Lucky's, bootie sticking out in the last pic):


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## holtzchick

Great to see your update.

The bitchyness could just be personality bu I guess you'd have to wait to figure that out. I can't believe you thought you'd lost a glider! I know that feeling and it feels one breath short of a heart attack! When i had ferrets I put a gate up in the bathroom and let one in there and I guess I fell asleep because I came back and she was gone! I searched my entire apartment frantically for an hour only to realize she was still in the bathroom but had climbed up the door and into the sleeve of my towel robe lol! I almost cried that night. 

Ah yes that is a brutal mo,t Phoenix gets lines like that all the time and it's interesting because is just looks like she hasn't been taken care of which couldnt have been further from the truth :big wink:

I'm sorry you've been having issues with your ie and photobucket and such. Have you thought about switching to Firefox? After trying a bunch of different programs I have decided that Firefox suits my needs best.


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## Imbrium

*mutters about the 10 pics per post limit*


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## Imbrium

last post before I'm caught up (I think, anyway).

glider toys I've made...










(original)





(updated)
















their "kitchen" (where they can throw food around without making a huge mess)... can't make it not lop-sided, though :











(this one now has fleece ties on the bead strings between the two bowls)

a sleeping spot (it's stuffed with fleece squares):


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## Imbrium

Hurricane in the ball pit:






tunnel I made for their tent:


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## Imbrium

you can see why it was pissing me off that I couldn't get pics uploaded, lol - had a lot piled up!


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## agnesthelion

Lots of pictures!

Hammies are adorable, the toys you are making are so creative, the buns are as cute as ever


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## holtzchick

Oh and I'm so happy that the little runt is well on his way with the rest of the litter  !!


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## whitelop

That little runt looks so happy! Oh, he couldn't have picked a better home to be born into! lol. 

Do the gliders play with all of those toys? They're very creative and cool looking. I wish buns would play with something like that, too bad they don't climb! hahaha. 

I have google chrome and I love it. Our internet explorer is a piece of crap too, it just hates us. lol 
I totally know what you mean about the commercials being louder than the actual show! It makes me crazy because my husband is pretty much deaf and we have to have the tv turned up louder than normal to hear the people talking so when a loud commercial comes in, it almost blows the speakers out of our tv! (he's not really deaf, but just a typical man and 'hard of hearing' lol) I hate it!


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## ldoerr

LOTS of pictures, THANK YOU. I love the toys that you made for the gliders. Very nice. Those hammies and gliders are SOOO cute!!! The hammies are getting soo big. Do you have homes for any of them yet?


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## HolyHandGrenade

Yay! Fun updates  

Oh crap, this episode of Parenthood is making me wanna cry so it's really hard to relay my happiness about your blog. Trust me, I'm highly amused by it


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## Hyatt101

Great pics! Crazy what I miss when I'm not on for a day or two!


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## Imbrium

ldoerr said:


> The hammies are getting soo big. Do you have homes for any of them yet?



I was at the point of giving my phone number to three people (either because they asked or I volunteered it) so they could call and get directions/arrange a time to come by, but no one ever called. I also had a tentative pick-up date set with a fourth who I'd been talking to for quite a while and never heard anything back after I emailed to confirm that we were still on for last wednesday . I emailed all four last night asking if they were still interested.

very frustrating, as I'm having to clean cages every 2-3 days because there's so many hammies in them that spot-cleaning only goes so far... and pretty soon I'm gonna have to separate them into individual cages. the upside is that I'll only have to clean them every 2 weeks or so... the downside is that I'll have to clean 14 cages (and have space for that many). more cages also means it'll be more time consuming to spend time with each hammy every day. thank god bins stack!

I would've thought it wouldn't be so hard to sell hammies that come with a cage, food/sunflower seeds (to supplement), wheel, water bottle, food dish, assortment of chews, hidey-igloo, care packet and some bedding around christmas time since it's a good first pet for kids and I'm providing everything needed to get started ><. I mean, it's 1-stop shopping with little to no research needed and the cage/wheel/food are top-of-the-line/ideal for syrians. not to mention, my ads say that the babies all got vet check-ups on 11/26, which I bet pet store hammies don't get.


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## whitelop

If I were closer to you, I would definitely buy a hammy from you. My husband loves hammies. Are Syrian's the same as honey bear hammies? If they are, then I think those are my favorite type of hammy and I'm really really pissed I'm like 2500 miles away from you! 
I can't believe no one would want them! They're freaking adorable and they come with everything! That really is an awesome thing that you're doing with the hammy starter kits. I hope you can find homes for them!


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## Imbrium

yeah, they're the same... syrians go by a lot of different names.

I suspect I could've gotten rid of some of them by now if I were selling 'em alone for $5 or something, but I went the more expensive/time consuming route of doing starter kits because I want them to have *proper* housing (instead of a dinky little store-bought POS that's WAY smaller than the recommended 360 square inches) and a wheel that doesn't make them arch their back when they run, which far too many syrians get stuck with because they're cute and little at the pet store but get quite big (my adult male is around 160 grams and probably twice the size he was when I got him).


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## whitelop

I LOVE those hammies! My friends little sister had one(that I took care of) She lived for like 2.5 years. I loved that little hammy. That was her name too, Hammy! She was a big girl. 
I really wish I was closer because I would have one in a heartbeat! Those are my husband's favorite hammies too. But, they're really hard to find here. I haven't seen one in a pet store in years, they don't like to sell them I guess. They sell those little dwarf 'robo' or russian hamsters, which are super aggressive and I don't like those. 
Ughh, now I want a hammy.


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## Imbrium

wow, I can't imagine not having hammies in pet stores! I'd offer to send ya one, but it's like $175 to ship a live animal 'cause they have to travel by airplane  (at least that's what it costs to get one or more sugar gliders shipped). I've never actually had a dwarf, though I've heard some types of dwarf can be kinda mean. I saw some at the pet store when I was getting my syrians and I couldn't believe how freaking tiny they were! the syrians were 4-5x the size, I think.


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## whitelop

Yeah the dwarf ones are really small. I do love hammies, but not THAT much. lol 
We have other types of hammies, but not the Syrians. I always look, but I haven't seen any in the petsmarts or petcos in a while. And there is only one actual pet store that sells puppies and stuff. I refuse to go in there because I'm almost positive they get their puppies from a puppy mill. I hate that place. yuck. 
Its really weird that we haven't seen any. My husband doesn't understand it either, because he loves them. He had them growing up and really enjoyed having them. He had the whole huge cage and tunnel system for them. hahaha.


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## Imbrium

yeah, I used to have the cages with tons of tunnels attached... suffice it to say, I got VERY good at locating/trapping escaped hammies, lol - they were always popping tunnels off or chewing their way out (I used a little wastebasket with household items stacked to make steps up to the top of it and left a little trail of noms with lots of noms inside the bin so the hammy would climb the steps and plop into the trash can). I miss the tunnels, but I can't find any big enough for syrians any more ><


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## agnesthelion

Speaking of escaped hamsters.....when I was in first grade my "boyfriend" named Cory (which ironically a married a Cory,lol) gave me a fuzzy little tanish/peach colored hamster (not sure of the breed) and my parents said yes i could keep him. So I was totally in love with this lil guy. I was like 6 years old and I can still remember it like yesterday....I named him Fuzzy. 

Anyway, I woke up one morning and Fuzzy had gotten out of his cage. My mom was thoroughly creeped out by the thought of this hamster running around her house. We looked EVERYwhere. No fuzzy  I was so sad.

So like days later I hear a noise in this crawl space. I couldn't see in it because it was dark and there were boxes and stuff. So I yell for my mom and we clear out the space and we see Fuzzy in the back. It was so cute because he had made this place his home. One corner was his toilet, he had chewed up some boxes and had some "bedding". And then his food supply was my baby sisters teething biscuits. She was like 1 year old at the time and had dropped them on the floor and Fuzzy dragged the whole thing back to his home. It was so stinkin cute! As far as water, this crawl space was under a concrete front stoop which was damp and had cracks with where water, although very little, seeped through. We think he had enough that way. His "home" was so stinkin cute and I can still remember him peering up at us as if he was so proud of himself. Even my mom was impressed with his resourcefulness  needless to say we got Fuzzy safe back in his cage and he lived a long, happy life. 

Anyway, sorry to crowd your blog with that story but when you said escaped hamster it totally made me think of Fuzzy!


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## whitelop

Awww Lisa! That is a sweet story!


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## holtzchick

Awh Lisa that is a sweet story! Animals are so intelligent, just in their ways! 

I am still so happy that the runt is looking good  It goes to show that the small guy doesn't always finish first (idk, I was thinking of the nice guy doesn't always finish last line, I wanted to make it fit.)


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## Imbrium

that is the *cutest* story - way to go, Fuzzy!


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## Hyatt101

That's such a sweet story Lisa!
Jennifer: How's the little runt doing?


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## Imbrium

so far so good! he's such a little trooper. I'll try to remember to weigh him and take pics when I wake up.


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## whitelop

Jennifer, do you mind if I ask what your sleep schedule is like? lol 
It always seems to me that you're up at very odd hours. hahaha. 
No judgement intended. I have a sleep problem, most of the time. I have serious difficulty sleeping on most nights. But hey, thats why there is coffee!


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## Imbrium

my sleep schedule is pretty erratic - I'm nocturnal half the time, lol. seems like once I go to sleep, I'm out for like 12 hours which throws off my schedule for the next time I go to sleep


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## whitelop

That's what i figured. Lol. I bet the buns love it!


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## whitelop

I just read some of the FAQ in the agility group thread, haha. I can only imagine what your house is like and what its like to live with you and your animals! I bet you have so much fun with them! lmao I wish I could make jumps and all that stuff to do with my buns! That would be a blast. But I bet you have such a good time with them, trying to get them to jump and watching them run around and stuff. I bet its fun to be there! Oh and Foo's spot to get her to move forward, is on her belly, like if you reach a hand under her and she thinks you're going to pick her up, she will take off! lol. 
You should post pictures of the girls going over jumps and the jump stuff! You may have and I may have missed it, but I would really like to see it! You're so crafty and creative anyway.


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## Chrisdoc

Wow, have just finished reading from start to here....how do you manage with all those animals. I´d never heard of sugar gliders but they´re so unusual and how cool to carry them about. 

I´d already seen your buns and I love them both. The lops are so beautiful but Nala really does remind me of a lion, she´s such a lovely colour. 

All those hamsters, you´re a dedicated mum to all of your animals and you´re doing a fantastic. Love the toys as well. I´ve been looking at sites which sell toys and I´m saving the photos and going to have a go at making them myself. A company in the UK make some really great bunny play houses which I love so I´m looking for someone who´s good with wood to make them for me but you´re so talented making all those toys yourself and I love the hamster box, what a great idea. 

My buns are real jumpers but hate the harness I bought. Might have a go with them again as I´m sure they´d be great at the bunny jumps.


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## Imbrium

whitelop said:


> You should post pictures of the girls going over jumps and the jump stuff! You may have and I may have missed it, but I would really like to see it! You're so crafty and creative anyway.



I've taken some pics of what I've made for them so far, but because it's such an ordeal to get them from there to here, I haven't gotten around to doing that yet . Home Depot sucks (still) and I forgot they close at 7 on sundays so when I showed up at 8:30 I was out of luck... now I have to wait until morning to get the rest of the stuff I need. I kinda hate sundays. Hobby Lobby isn't open at all on sunday, so I couldn't get stuff there, either. why do I have to suffer just so other people can believe in Jesus? doesn't seem like the two should have to be mutually exclusive.

I also kinda hate people who don't know what "compact" means. my grocery store has a small row of parking spots that are reserved for people like me who drive cute LITTLE cars and they're labeled as being for compact cars, but people always park MASSIVE SUVs and trucks in them! a tiny SUV is one thing, but suburbans and king cab extended trucks do NOT belong in the compact spots! when I got back out to my car tonight, I *barely* managed to open my door enough to wedge myself into the car because some jerk crammed a Yukon XLT (which is suburban sized) in the compact spot next to me. buy a smaller car or park two spaces further away in a regular-sized parking spot, **** it! no one ever died from having to walk an extra 10 feet to get into the grocery store.



Chrisdoc said:


> Wow, have just finished reading from start to here....how do you manage with all those animals.
> 
> My buns are real jumpers but hate the harness I bought. Might have a go with them again as I´m sure they´d be great at the bunny jumps.



they're a pain in the butt sometimes, lol - my house is quite cramped and it's time for me to finish the bin cages and separate all the hamster babies into individual cages ><. at least two of my females were in heat last night and I saw some courtship behavior (ie pre-humping stuff) going on in the girls' cage. the boys seem to be getting on ok still.

I'm miffed at the company I bought their wodent wheels from... first time, I ordered four total and they arrived assembled... but I got 8 more and they're not put together so I have to do it myself and I don't wanna >.> I can't complain too much though, I guess, since shipping's only $8 no matter how much you order (even when I ordered the ginormous sugar glider cage from them!).

Lucky is doing *amazing*! the other two male banded golden umbrous babies weigh 67 and 55g... and Lucky now weighs 52!! he looks almost totally normal! thank god he's banded or I wouldn't be able to tell him apart from his brothers - I had to look at the markings on their stripes to make sure he was really the runt, lol. I think I'm gonna phone the vet and ask him what the little guy's odds are now that he's grown so much.

on a side note, I really LOATHE this oat hay. I'm sick and tired of picking out oats when it's half oats! last night, I was just too tired to bother with it and just decided to let them starve overnight (ie I put coastal in their box instead, hoping they'd get hungry enough to eat it).

on the plus side, they were quite hungry when I got up and I was able to work on clicker stuff with them. I sat there for like half an hour, doing "click, food, food" over and over (hand-feeding them pellets) so they learn to associate the click with noms.


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## whitelop

I can't believe you pick the oats out of the hay. lmao. I would never do that. I give Foo oat hay and I said screw the oats, you can eat them. She doesn't get pellets, so I guess the oats are 'better' for her than your girls. 
I know what you mean about people and parking places and stores on Sundays. Our Hobby Lobby is closed Sunday's too, and chik-fil-a. I always really want a chicken sandwich on Sunday. I think everything should be open still. If you have a problem with it being open on Sunday, don't leave your freaking house! lol I live in the middle of the bible belt and sometimes its really hard. Like when I want to buy wine or beer on Sunday and can't, I have to drive 30 minutes into another state. 

I'm so glad your runt hammy is doing so well! That is exciting news!


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## Chrisdoc

Don´t start me, I did laugh at your comments about the car parking. I know exactly what you mean and I hate it also when people don´t park between the lines and park too near one side so when you park your car, you can hardly get out or when someone parks so near, you have to get in the passenger side and climb over grrrr. It´s the same here with the family spaces, you always get someone on their own who just can´t be bothered walking that extra bit. They so do not respect other drivers on the roads over here. 

You are lucky that your shops open on a Sunday. Ours don´t only over Christmas, Easter and the Summer so they just started last Sunday until after the New Year. They don´t have 24 hour opening here either but you just get used to what they have and sometimes, it´s nice on a Sunday knowing that you can´t go shopping. 

I can´t believe you pick the oats out either, mine would just have to eat what they liked and leave the rest. I love you have so much choice over there as it´s so difficult here to get any variety. I went to Gibraltar on Friday as they love the meadow hay they sell in Morrisons. The last two times my friend went down, she looked but they´d sold out so on Friday, I was so pleased and was going to stock up. I got there and yeahhhh, they´d sold out. I was so annoyed, I felt like crying and I spoke to the girl on customer services and she said they´d probably have some on Monday....great, I only go there once in a while as it´s around 80 miles. If it´s so popular and they always sell out, why the heck don´t they stock more. So, I ended up buying them a big bag in the department store and I´m hoping they´ll like it.

Had a quick look back at some of the pics....love the little hammies and the sugar gliders are amazing, wow.


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## Imbrium

whitelop said:


> I can't believe you pick the oats out of the hay. lmao. I would never do that. I give Foo oat hay and I said screw the oats, you can eat them. She doesn't get pellets, so I guess the oats are 'better' for her than your girls.



perhaps you people think I'm exaggerating about it being "half oats", lol (ok, it's really more like 1/4 oats overall, but half of the stalks have oats on them which I have to rip off to make those stalks feedable). Foo doesn't eat pellets, which mine do, and she also eats practically every kind of hay known to man rather than ALL oat hay... also, Gazzles is a little chubby-butt... so yeah, I pick out the oats 'cause I don't want them scarfing down the equivalent of a bowl of oatmeal on a daily basis. I have pics I took last night demonstrating the hay to oat ratio, but I haven't gotten around to arguing them onto my computer yet.


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## missyscove

I give mine the oats too, but they only get oat hay occasionally on top of their regular timothy/orchard assortment. 
Let me know how you do with clicker training a bonded pair. I had been clicker training Timmy before he died and I wasn't really sure how to go about using a clicker with two buns at once. 
I've got my boys to a point where they'll come when I shake their cup of pellets and we're working on periscoping "up" on command just with me hand feeding them their pellets as a treat.


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## holtzchick

Which company is the oat hay from?

I normally buy the Oxbow oat hay and I didn't seem to have that problem. Then again, I'm sorta blind AND I mixed the tiny bag of hay with the Timothy bale so it kind of made the oats disappear!


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## Imbrium

it's overpriced oxbow... very obviously a late cut ><

I'm also curious whether clicker-training will work with them together, but I figure it's worth a try. I'm hoping they'll learn that the click only means food if they're also in close proximity to mommy when they hear it. Nala will do "up" for a pellet raised in the air... if I try the same thing with Gazzles, she gives me the butt and then takes off (I think she doesn't trust me not to snag her while she's periscoping... she's been extra flightly lately because of me capturing and furminating her since her molt started). when I give commands, I always say "Nala-bunny, up!" or "Gazzles - up" in hopes that they know who's being given the command. I *think* they know their names... they sure seem to if I have treats in my hand (as in, will usually come to their name while I'm holding treats but not to the other bunny's name), but they play dumb any other time.


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## missyscove

Sherlock will come running pretty reliably when I shake the pellet cup. Sometimes Watson is doing something he thinks is better / he knows if he comes over I'm going to put him back in the cage and he's stubborn. Then he usually tries to hide in his cardboard tube.


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## Imbrium

mine have an uncanny way of knowing the difference between whether or not there are strings attached to whatever I'm offering. for some reason, if I need to lure them out, they like to turn their noses up at treats, lol. Gazzles sometimes gets paranoid and thinks I'm luring when I'm not.


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## holtzchick

LOL yeah, that happens to me too, the bunnies have selective hearing!


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## Chrisdoc

Mine always dash over to their box by the window when I go to get the food out at night when I´m ready to put them away. Sometimes, I laugh out loud as Houdini and Bandy are standing on the arm of the sofa waiting. Snowy is always the last go in and needs a bit of gentle encouragement. I´m amazed how well trained they are now as at the beginning, it was a real trial to get them to bed, they used to love playing at chase me, catch me lol


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## Imbrium

I gotta say, I kinda hate the sugar gliders right now... (warning, rant is a little graphic)

so I went to petsmart and coughed up $5 for a little container of mealworms (which are as gross as they sound) 'cause sugar gliders are insectivores and you're supposed to give them mealies or something once a day (I just haven't been doing it until now 'cause they're babies). the lady at the store offered Hurricane one and she wouldn't touch it.

I've read that if they won't try them on their own, you should break it open (I was too squeamish to pull it apart, so I used a knife), squish out the goo inside, get some on your finger and offer it to them as a licky treat. so I did. it was gross. they wouldn't eat it. ungrateful little wenches! then they had the nerve to look at me with those cute wittle faces so I couldn't even get mad at them for it!


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## Imbrium

so I made an a$$ out of myself on the front lawn today... thankfully, I don't think anyone saw. I was sitting on the ground working on some pieces for the agility course when this **** bee decided to get ALL up in my business!

for whatever reason, my instinct was to hold up the drill that was in my hand and point it at the bee, like I thought that was somehow going to fend it off, lol. it kept buzzing around and I kept waving the drill to shoo it away but it wouldn't take the hint. finally I got smart and took off one of my flip-flops since it was hovering close to the ground and I smooshed the hell out of it. I figured that was the end of things...

little while later, ANOTHER bee comes over... this one kept buzzing around my head where I couldn't smoosh it but I did finally manage to shoo it off. at this point, I started to get a little paranoid about the bees... turned out I had good reason to be! that little jerk came back and brought one of his little bee buddies with him! I finally went inside, got a can of raid and then lured them far away from the bunnies and inflicted a lemony-fresh death on them both. I was paranoid as hell after that, though. I swear I kept periodically seeing a bee-shaped shadow and I freaked out a few times over what turned out to be butterflies.

the agility course is mostly done... need to make a second jump, paint it, apply another coat of paint to the bars on the first jump and finish spraying the stuff on it that protects it from water and such. I'll try to get pics uploaded when I wake up.


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## Imbrium

*sigh*... :tears2:... poor little Foo! I can't believe she's gone... I feel so horrible for Morgan and can't believe the universe was cruel enough to take away her little heart bunny.

I'm gonna go give Nala and Gaz a big hug and have a moment of silence with them for poor little Bunny Foo Foo.

binky free, Foo - you were the bestest little temperamental lop and I loved hearing stories about you! :rainbow:


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## Chrisdoc

I can´t believe it either. I´ve only been on here for a short while but Morgan´s blog was the first I read and I absolutely love her stories of life with Foo. 

Évery since I saw it, I´ve been checking on my boys and they´re probably fed up with me picking them up and cuddling them, I just want to squeeze them to death.

I can´t imagine what she´s feeling and how devastated she is, we all thought it would be so straightforward. Foo was a gorgeous little girl and will be sorely missed on here. I hope little Elvira manages to keep her going and give her something to take her mind of other things. Although she´ll never fill the gap left by Foo, she might go towards making her look forward to watching another little girl grow to love her. 

Binky on Bunny Foo Foo over that rainbow bridge :hearts: A little bit of my heart has gone with you.


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## Imbrium

I know, she was SO precious with her little grump face... reading Morgan's blog, Foo really came to life for all of us. even though I never met her, I loved that little grumpy bunny. I do think Elvira stumbled into Morgan's life when she did for a reason, though. she'll never replace Foo, but some nose-bonks and bunny kisses might help a little bit towards mending a broken heart.

:headflick:


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## Chrisdoc

Gosh, is it only a week since I joined RO and it feels like forever. Only a week since I fell in love with little Foo and read about all her adventures. 

I fell in love with that little grumpy face and those beautiful long ears and waited every day to hear more about what she´d been up to. I was so happy when Elvira arrived and happy that Foo would have someone to keep her company and share her life with. 

How life changes in a minute. Elvira can never replace Foo but tiny bunny cuddles and kisses might go towards helping to mend that broken heart.


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## Imbrium

yes, life has certainly been throwing a lot of curve-balls this week. let's hope the school shooting, the knife attacks in China and poor Foo passing away count as far as "bad things happen in threes" goes and we won't have to face any other bad news for a while. I'm at my limit for things worth crying about. I'm rooting really hard for Little-Marge MacBunnington, who is sick today; the rainbow bridge section has been unpleasantly busy this week and I would hate to see another entry.


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## audrinasmommy88

Morgan and i have been texting back and forth and I just feel terrible for her. I wish I had the words to say to her.


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## ldoerr

O NO. This is the first that I have herd of Foo passing. I have been gone for about a week (no internet). Amazing what you miss. RIP Foo. You will be missed  urplepansy:


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## Imbrium

it sucks so much knowing that there's nothing you can say or do to take away the pain of someone's loss 

Little-Marge MacBunnington is back in the hospital as of this morning... I'm so worried for her!


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## Imbrium

ok, to illustrate my point about the **** oat hay...

here's the bag of hay - you can see how little I've used so far:







here's the oats I've gotten out of it (and this isn't even all the oats, 'cause at first I just threw them away - it's maybe 80-85% of the oats):






yeah. tedious.

Gazzles is still molting. horribly. I furminated her outside while waiting for paint to dry on the jump... luckily I was still wearing my apron, so the fur got on that instead of my clothes:






here's the side of the pen after I was done - the tufts of hair I released into the wind got caught on it:






here's the bunnies' main project from this week (once upon a time, it was a phone book):






and here's the mini-project from when I accidentally forgot some of the wood for the agility course stuff in their pen:











since they liked the wood so much, I gave them the 1' length that was leftover scrap. they've ignored it. apparently the wood is only tasty if it's forbidden >.>


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## Imbrium

I don't remember if I shared the updated version of the barrel of monkeys glider toy and I'm too lazy to go back and check, so here it is (possibly again):










^ Hurricane sitting on top the monkeys

as for Trouble...


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## Imbrium

ok, agility course stuff...

I started with this list of needed materials: http://www.canadianrabbithoppingclub.com/HTML/equipment.html ... I built a jump, an A-frame and a teeter-totter so far. I have mats for a second jump and partial mats for two more... total, I spent maybe $75 and it would cost me another $7 to get up to four jumps. my jumps only have the option of going as high as 12'' because my girls are too young for it to be safe to go higher.

teeter-totter:
pretty basic... I couldn't find 4 1/2 inch plastic tubing, so I got the 4''. I couldn't find 11'' wide boards, so I got one 10''x1''x8' long board and had home depot cut it into three pieces for me - a 36'' piece for the teeter-totter and two 24'' pieces for the A-frame. it's missing from the materials list on the website, but you also need four bolts - I used #10 bolts that were 1.5'' long (came in a pack of 5) because I already had a drill bit that I knew worked for #10 stuff (13/64). the only tools I needed were scissors and a drill with a drill bit that matched the bolts.

I measured to the dead center of the board and marked drill holes:





then I drilled the holes, put the tubing underneath, held it firmly in place and drilled through the wood and into the plastic just enough to leave a mark, then set the board aside and finished drilling the holes in the tubing. later, I discovered I was stupid about that - when I went to attach the tubing, I found that there were no drill holes in one piece... because I'd put two sets of 2 holes in the other. whoops!






I sprayed this stuff on all the wood pieces (takes 2-3 coats) to protect it against water, since I'm using the jumps outside (plus it can't hurt to protect bunns from splinters!):






once both sides were protected and had dried, I secured the plastic tubing with bolts:






I asked in the agility group section about the 1/4'' wooden dowels being used as slats because I couldn't get the stupid finishing nails to go all the way through the dowel, let alone all the way into the board and was told "We don't use the dowels any more as they were coming off and it was getting a bit dangerous with a risk of toe nails getting caught. We use a rubber grip stuff that is glued down. It works well. I guess the website hasn't been updated for that. You can try gluing them down too. That is a good idea anyway."

I looked around for rubber grip stuff that looked like it would work, but didn't find anything good so I bought this stuff:






(it's kinda like berber carpeting)

I thought about buying glue to glue it to the board, but that seemed potentially messy and a pain in the butt... and what if I forgot stuff in the rain and the carpet got messed up and I needed to replace it? so I used some 5/8'' wood screws that were leftover from building the jump and just screwed the carpet down. it doesn't come all the way to the edges because it was 24'' wide total and the boards are 9 1/2'' across so I just cut it to 8'' to make it easier to cut the carpet stuff. they're not running on the outer 3/4'' anyway, after all.






teeter-totter:


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## Imbrium

A-frame... tools needed: drill (the screwdriver bit + one bit to match the hooks)

I had the two 24'' long boards that I got home depot to cut for me, and I bought two hinges. this is the kind I got, because they were the cheapest ($2-something each):






of course, I realized when I went to put it together that the screws that came with the hinge were too long - they have to be screwed in ALL the way to hold the hinge securely in place and if I screwed them in all the way then they came out the other side ><

I had 5/8'' screws left from making the jumps, but the heads were too small so I had to buy a packet of #10 wood screws... conveniently, they came 12 to a pack and that's exactly how many I needed  I also needed two screw hooks and a bit to drill holes for them (the bit should be slightly smaller than the hooks so that when you twist them in, they'll be snug).






I guess I failed at taking pics when making this thing... anyway, I sprayed it with the same protectant stuff I used on the teeter-totter, used the hinges to connect the two boards and screwed on strips of carpet just like I did before.

Home Depot sells chain by the foot, I found some that was the right size for the 5/8'' screws from the jump to be able to fit through but still have the screw head hold it in place. I had to go back and have them cut the length of chain in half for me, 'cause heavy-duty wire cutters didn't touch it.

one end of each chain gets screwed in (leave it a teeny tiny bit loose so it can be twisted to match the height you're setting the A-frame at). for the other end, you drill a hole and then twist in the screw hook... it ends up being able to go REALLY deep into the board even though the screw ridges only go partway up:






then you hook the loose end of the chain on the screw hooks - you can attach the very ends, or you can make the A-frame steeper by pulling the chains shorter.

A-frame:


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## Imbrium

I made the jumps a bit differently than on the site. first of all, I didn't realize Hobby Lobby sold the things used to make the feet for the stands (or feel like scouring the store to find something I didn't know the name of), so I got a 2x4 and had Home Depot cut it into 1' lengths for me (which is enough for 4 jumps). it's not as pretty, but it's cheaper and it works. secondly, I had no idea where to find film canisters in this day and age, so I improvised 

tools used: dremel and drill

in addition to the 2x4, I also got a 1x2 (cut into 2'' lengths, enough for 2 jumps)

my drill was cheap and didn't like 1 1/2'' screws (what I used to connect the 1x2 to the 2x4) and wouldn't put them more than 1/2'' into the wood so I had to pre-drill holes with one of the bits I already have... I forget if it was the 11/64 or the 13/64... if you don't buy the cheapest drill, that probably won't be a problem, lol.

because I didn't have film canisters, I used these (from hobby lobby):






I took off the lids and used the dremel to cut them in half:






then I used the drill bit from the dremel to put a hole in it for the screw:






I used a box of 5/8'' screws to attach them to the jump (one box of 50 screws is just enough for 2 jumps with 4 bars on each, the 2 screws for the chain in the A-frame and to screw the carpet pieces onto the teeter-totter and A-frame):






I also got the dowels from Hobby Lobby 'cause they're lots cheaper than they are at Home Depot even though everything else at Hobby Lobby is overpriced. they're 36'' long - I cut each one in half with the dremel so that I only needed two total per jump. I painted everything with cheap acrylic paint from Hobby Lobby (and cheap foam brushes), then sprayed that protectant stuff on it.

the jump:











so far, Gazzles has gotten up to 6'' and Nala to 9''!


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## Imbrium

the course (I used a spare playpen to make an interior fence to keep them on the course):






I ran them each through it a few times, offering a craisin at the end. I ended up trying out the harness so they couldn't run off too far when we were arguing over whether they were going to go over the obstacles or cheat and go around (for obvious reasons, we skipped the tunnel when they were wearing the harness and leash ).

the whole thing was surprisingly easy to make (thank god Home Depot will cut wood for you!) considering I've never built anything all by myself before except for the NIC condo and the bin cages.


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## whitelop

Oh freaking A! My laptop is totally toast. It has to stay plugged in all the time now to work.(my MIL is supposed to get us a new laptop or tablet for Christmas, but I'm not going to hold my breath. *rolls eyes* she's a b**ch.) So I had this really nice response typed out to you and I was like two words away from being done and knocked the freaking cord out and it cut off and went away! AHHHH! I just want to throw it out the freaking window. 

Anyway...Your agility course looks awesome and your jumps are really cool! I think you're super crafty! You could probably build a house with your dremel and drill! lol 
I had this whole cute thing about neighbors think you were crazy and if I had neighbors, they would think I was crazy too. But now its lost its humor because I can't really remember it! Stupid piece of crap computer. 

Do your gliders actually play with all the toys that you've made for them? I have no idea how they behave, are they playful or timid or what do they actually act like? 
They're really cute though. Are those bite marks on your thumb? Holy hell. 

I see what you meant about the oats being a little ridiculous. Gaz couldn't have all those oats, she would be like a ball with legs. lmao I have a small bag of oxbow and its really oaty too. I have to share about last night, Ellie was out and found just the oat part of the hay on the floor. She picked it up and I realized a little too late what it was. But she didn't eat it. She picked it up and put it back down. I was so surprised she didn't eat it. Normally they really like the oat parts. It was funny. 

I can't remember what else I had written out on the other response, but oh well. If I think of it I'll let you know. hahaha.


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## whitelop

Oh and in the bag of hay, I can see the oats in there. lol thats pretty bad. You should call them and see if they'll send you a new bale of something else! Complain like crazy about all the oats! I would do it.


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## holtzchick

Wicked cool course! You are the best animal mother ever! 
Your gliders look adorable and happy with their toys and the bunnies, well, they're just always happy it seems! 
I like the picture with the pen outside and Gazzles' hair stuck to it from the furminator, it looks like something bad happened out there...
Poor Gazzles! 

Call me crazy, but I bought the small bale of oxbow oat hay and I didn't see very many oats... Next time (if there is one) I will definitely pay closer attention. 
The agillity course looks great though and you're pretty handy


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## Imbrium

whitelop said:


> I had this whole cute thing about neighbors think you were crazy and if I had neighbors, they would think I was crazy too. But now its lost its humor because I can't really remember it! Stupid piece of crap computer.
> 
> Do your gliders actually play with all the toys that you've made for them? I have no idea how they behave, are they playful or timid or what do they actually act like?
> They're really cute though. Are those bite marks on your thumb? Holy hell.



sorry your laptop sucks >< mine's a piece of crap too (*shakes her fist at Dell*)

I'm pretty sure the neighbors think I'm certifiable... while I was building the course, people kept slowing down as they drove past to stare. apparently it's weird to do craft projects in the bunny pen on your front lawn... good thing I don't give a **** if people think I'm weird! 

I was curious if the toys were really more for the humans than the gliders, as they didn't seem inclined to climb on all the bead strings that people use in toys so much - that's why I put so many fleece ties on the barrel of monkeys toy, so that they'd have something they could grip better. in the last week or so, though, they've really found their confidence when it comes to climbing and they climb all over strings of beads with no fleece ties needed! they're crazy little wall-monkeys, lol. they were all over the mesh sides of the tent today, too, which they never used to be able to do.

and yes, those are bite marks on my thumb... freaking Trouble!

speaking of gliders, they have weird sleeping schedules for nocturnal creatures!

at 9:30 this morning, Trouble was sound asleep in my hand, I was *trying* to go to sleep and hyperactive Hurricane was keeping me awake 'cause she kept dancing around on my bootie. (I slept in the tent with them today)

I fell asleep before Hurricane did, so I don't know what time she went to bed... at 12:45 she and Trouble were curled up in my hand (which was inside a pouch), sleeping soundly.

when I first woke up at 5:30, Trouble was tearing around the tent and using me as her personal jungle gym. I went back to sleep and kinda dozed until 8 (with Trouble running around the whole time)... when I got up for real, Hurricane was still sleeping in my hand.


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## whitelop

Their names are so fitting! Wow, I don't think you could have chosen better names if you tried. 
You have the most strange sleeping schedule of any human I've ever met. lol But I bet your animals really love it. 

I think its really cool they play with and on all those awesome toys you made for them. Thats so fun, I bet its nice to see your hard work being used! Is Trouble still crabby? How's you're little hammy runt doing? 

I live on a pretty busy road, its the main road between two towns, so we get a good amount of traffic. Yesterday I was standing in my drive way on the phone(yelling, so I was all hand motions and theatrical) at one point I looked around and realized that there were 4 cats around me and two chickens. In my front yard, where everyone could see me as they passed by. A few times I saw people looking at me like 'wtf is going on at that girls house? Why does she have so many animals around her and why are her arms so loud?!' I had my back to the road for most of that conversation, so people wouldn't be able to see me in case I saw them in town. lol Sometimes I have to hide my face. My neighbors also think I'm nuts, thank god they're like 100 and hopefully don't see well. BUT I know my neighbor saw me throw my slipper at my rooster yesterday and him attack it multiple times. lmao Thats what its like at my house.


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## ldoerr

That is AMAZING!!! You are very crafty. I could never build anything like that.


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## Imbrium

your rooster attacked your slipper?? hilarious!

yes, Trouble is still crabby... and bitey. she lives up to her name more than I ever dreamed she could >.>

Lucky was 55g last night, so he's still growing well 

Lauren, I bet you could, it really is quite easy once you get going! I was asking the hopping club folks if there was somewhere to buy stuff because I *never* thought I could just throw it together myself... but once I started planning out the project, I realized it would actually be doable. aside from needing a dremel to cut the plastic cups (not sure if anything else that's cheaper would work, you might be able to melt it in half with a cheap soldering iron), all it really takes is a shopping list, a helpful Home Depot employee (which there seem to be a ton of) to cut the wood and chain for you and the ability to use a drill. it wasn't any more complicated than building a NIC condo .


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## Imbrium

:tears2: another bunn-life has ended far too early

binky free, Little-Marge MacBunnington! we barely even started getting to know you, and already you've been taken from us... your sad story brought many of us to tears and the happy ending warmed our hearts! now you can be reunited with Benjamin MacBunnington the First and binky together with no pain, suffering or scars from your pasts. you were the face of a wonderful rescue that snatched you and so many other creatures out of a miserable existence and showed you a better life.


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## qtipthebun

Your jumps are purple. Q-tip approves. She loves purple. She says "Mommy, don't you want to move up your trip to about now and let me go to the bunnysitter's??" Methinks she's jealous of Gaz and Nala!! We can't do stuff like that in our yard because there are lots of outside dogs (none of them ours) and a sweet barn cat with quite a hunting instinct. I guess that's why she wants to go play at your place!!


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## whitelop

Imbrium said:


> your rooster attacked your slipper?? hilarious!
> 
> yes, Trouble is still crabby... and bitey. she lives up to her name more than I ever dreamed she could >.>
> 
> Lucky was 55g last night, so he's still growing well



Yes he did. I bet its even better when they see him attack ME! lmao. That happens too. Its not fun, its got these spurs that are like 2 inches long, on top of his regular claws. He got me really good once. bastard. 

I'm SO glad Lucky is doing so well. He's such a cutie. We need more pictures! 
I'm sorry Trouble is a little crabby-pants. That has to be hard to deal with.

(hahahaha the filter on this new one isn't very good. lmao.)


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## holtzchick

Have you sold any of the Hams yet?


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## Imbrium

god, I wish. SO many cages!!


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## whitelop

Do the hammies have to be separated? Or can they be together, like mice and rats? I know sometimes they're different. I don't really know much about hammies other than they're adorable and they have weird little tail nubs. I couldn't imagine having that many cages. AHH. I would be going nuts. 
What will you do with them if you can't sell them? Do you have animal fairs where you are? We have them here, while I've never been to one, I kind of understand the idea of them. Its to inform people/kids on the responsibility of "exotic" animals. Like rabbits, guinea pigs, ponies, hammies, things of that nature. They usually have all kinds of animals out there for sale or adoption. And they have like a pony/horse/donkey/goat petting zoo thing. They usually do it in the spring time at a church near me. If they have one of those near you, you could enter into it. That way you would be telling people all about hammies and their starter kits and what they require. That would be a good outlet, if thats something that you guys have in your area. Thats what I think I would do if I had an over abundance of hammy!


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## Imbrium

mice and rats and (I think) gerbils and dwarf hammies can each live together (same sexes, obviously, or else you get babies out the wazoo)... Syrian hammies (the big ones, like I have) are loners, which is a real bitch right about now.

I've been gradually separating them as I get cages finished - went from 5 girls in one/7 boys in the other (plus mom and dad each in their own cage) to cages of no more than 2-3 hammies in each. I have seven more bin cages to make :banghead, and I'm procrastinating. currently, dad is in a meshed rabbit cage in my parlor area and mom is in a bin cage that's on top the rabbit cage. the babies are in the dining room in a single stack of 5 cages. I really wish the cages could open from the front or side or something instead of the top, then I could give their daily fresh foods/sunflower seeds and some attention without having to unstack and restack it all.

on the plus side, when I started breaking up the babies into pairs/groups of 3, I had the foresight to get a sharpie marker and some masking tape and make labels for the cages - I've got them numbered on one side and on the other side has gender and markings (so M/F and then BS for banded sable, UG for umbrous golden, etc.) to tell me at a glance what's in the cages so if someone finally gets around to buying one and is only interested in looking at certain ones, I know which cages to pull even if the hammies are hiding.

I also printed out some monthly calendars for dec/jan/feb so far and stapled them together and keep them and a pen by the hammies, then when I clean cages, I mark down the #s that I cleaned on the day I cleaned them so I'll know when it's time to clean that cage again (meaning I don't waste bedding cleaning something that was cleaned very recently, I don't let anyone's cage get all stinky and I don't have to clean them all on the same day).

that sounds like a great venue - I could totally teach kids and stuff about hamster care and talk some parents into a hammy 'cause they're super low-maintenance (unless you have 14)... too bad I don't know of anything like that here


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## whitelop

Could you check with local churches or even the humane society or shelter? They may have something like that, that maybe you don't know about  lol 

WOW! That sounds like quite a schedule and quite an ordeal. But it seems like you have pretty good organizational skills! I would be like up to my ass in hammies and completely lost. Hell, sometimes I'm lost with just the animals I have and they're all really low maintenance. I really hope some people start to pipe up and take some hammies. I'm surprised no one wanted them for Christmas for their kids, as terrible as that is.


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## Imbrium

I'm usually fail at organization, but more for lack of effort than ability - if I'm motivated enough, I can pull it off 

I'm surprised about the christmas thing, too... and honestly, I wouldn't have felt bad about that sort of thing with hammies the way I would with bunnies. bunnies are high-maintenance. hammies... throw some food in their cage, fill their water bottle, toss in a new chew or two periodically and as long as the cage itself is appropriately big (my bins are), they've got some toys and the wheel they have is big enough to be comfortable (the wheels I'm providing are), they're pretty much set. bin cage only needs cleaning every 2 weeks or so (and maybe scoop the potty corner every few days). obviously most don't mind some human interaction, but they definitely don't crave it like other animals do. pellets are a 95% complete diet, these just need to be supplemented with a couple sunflower seeds and maybe a high-fiber treat now and then... and Syrian hammies can eat a LOT of human foods. most fruits and veggies, unseasoned meat, eggs (cooked without oil), most grains (wheat, not white) and most nuts are ok for them. they really are the *ideal* cute/fuzzy starter pet for a kid that might get bored because they don't give a **** if you ignore them and the upkeep required from the parents if the kid slacks off is minimal.


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## Chrisdoc

This is totally fascinating and don't know how you manage with all your animals so you must be organised. It's such a shame that you're having troubling homing them as they seem to be quite easy to look after, sounds like a great starter pet for any kid and don't need loads of space. Hope you can home some of them over Christmas and the New Year. Your house must be really like a menagerie..how do you manage to keep sane ??


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## Imbrium

I'm not sure I do, lol.

so I found this all-natural/organic/totally safe for people and animals stuff at home depot that's supposed to kill stupid buggies like those **** caterpillars that ate up ALL my plants except my sage, and you can use it up until the day before harvest.

I tried to buy more plants, but the jerks don't sell veggie and herb plants this time of year and they said THREE MONTHS before they have them again. bastards. I had to drive all the way over to the plant nursery. I got some dill, the kind of basil that has purple on it, a new mint plant and this plant that's got different lettuces in it. I feel bad for the plant nursery folks, I'm sure business isn't exactly booming this time of year. I'm just glad they sell stuff out of season for those of us who lost their ENTIRE FREAKING GARDEN to **** caterpillars. man, am I still pissed off at those caterpillars. I worked so hard at not killing my plants and I kept them alive for MONTHS! the raddicio was SO close to being ready to harvest when it got slaughtered, and the plant place didn't have any and now I STILL don't know if Nala would eat it.


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## Kipcha

Sorry, I just got a chance to look at your agility equiptment and I must say, you did a fantastic job! Are the buns doing any better with it?


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## Imbrium

yup, once I tightened the fencing on either side so that going around obstacles wasn't an option, they were breezing through it without me even needing the harness. Nala didn't want to do 9'' jumps the second day we practiced, so I had both girls at 6''. sometimes they went backwards through the course before I could even grab someone to take them back to the start, lol. I got videos of each of them, but I'm having comp issues (windows explorer seems to hate me and crash my computer) and got frustrated/gave up trying to upload them... I'll try to get them posted at some point. I think they really like the agility training


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## Kipcha

That's awesome! I cannot wait to see videos of them zooming around!


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## ldoerr

I was talking to my mom about your hamsters the other day (and asking if I could get one, No sorry). She said that you can not even GIVE hamsters away. I think that pretty soon you will have to cut your losses and just try to give the sets away. Maybe ask at the petstore if they will rehome them for you. Hamsters are next to imposible to give away let alone sell. The only time I have seen a big demand for hamsters was at the raffle at a rabbit show. Someone had brought 5 young hamsters (2 males and 3 females in the same cage) to donate to the raffle (the raffle tickets cost $$ that goes twords the rabbit club sponcering the show). Those were the most popular item there. People ended up bringing them home in boxes or just holding them the 3-8hr drive home. None of the kids that ended up with the hamsters had cages or anything. At another rabbit show the most popular item was a parakeet that I ended up winning (my mom was MAD). 

Good luck finding them homes, but you might just have to cut your losses soon. Sorry


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## Chrisdoc

Sorry to hear about the bugs in your gardens, they're a real pain but great to see you growing you own. I'm no gardener, don't have green fingers like my mum or my sister and on my terrace, it's not suitable to grow or keep anything. I did try at the beginning but it's either too wet or far too hot. Mine love the basil flowers, they love the leaves as well. I'll be picking some up today from my friends house as she has it growing in the garden. It's like going to the market when I go there as I pick up any veggies she has growing at that time plus herbs and twigs. My boys will be happy when I get home tonight.

I love the agility course, you are so handy lol. I don't think I could make anything like that but would love to try mine on it as they love jumping although they don't love wearing a harness. It's so good the way you set out the steps to put it together, good teacher. I have seen videos of rabbits competing in agility courses and they actually seemed to really love it.


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## whitelop

I really glad your girls like that agility course. I think its supposed to be really good for their self esteem(yes I just said that, lol) I think when they do things like that, it makes them feel better and they get lots of great exercise which is so good! Especially if you say Gazzles is chubby(I don't see it, but if you say so  haha) 
I think I might try to make Ellie a jump or two, I think she could really excel at that, she is pretty hoppy already. 
I can't wait to see the video of your girls jumping the jumps and doing the whole course! I'm excited!


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## Imbrium

if you're thinking of making Ellie some jumps, you should ask in the rabbit agility group about what age to start out at - I think there might be a minimum age. I know they're not supposed to do jumps higher than 12'' until at least, I believe, 9 mos old - hence why my jumps stop there.

Gazzles really isn't all that chubby these days, but if I don't stay on top of her diet (pellets in particular) and make sure she gets enough exercise, she gets a big ol' chubby tummy in no time flat. she's at a pretty good weight these days and I intend to keep it that way! she tends to *seem* chubbier than she is a lot of times just because Nala is SO lean and muscular and Gaz has a stockier build because that's how Hollands are bred.


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## whitelop

If I do try to get Ellie into any kind of agility, I would wait until she was 6 months or more. Until she's done growing. I probably would never build her a jump or anything, since I'm pretty lazy and its hard to find time to do things like that! haha. 
I'm glad your girls like to do it though! 

Yes, Hollands are like little balls! They're so round. Nala is totally different than Gaz, so its probably weird with different breed standards in both rabbits you're with all the time. I would always think one was too fat and one was too thin. lol


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## Hyatt101

Can we have new pics of all your animals Jennifer? How is the runt hammy?


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## Imbrium

I'll try to get pics soon, I just hate the process of getting them off the camera now... **** computer. lucky is still doing great!


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## Hyatt101

Good! Glad to hear the little guy is holding on! ray:


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## Imbrium

smoke and carbon monoxide detectors piss me off sometimes. lately, my smoke alarm has taken to beeping periodically... every few days, it does it for a couple hours in the middle of the night and drives me crazy, but then it stops for some reason. I didn't bother buying a new 9V battery (**** the thing for not just using AAA or AA so I can use the rechargeable batteries I already have) because it stopped making the noise and I figured if the battery was actually low, it wouldn't have stopped, right? (plus I need to dig out the rarely-used charger that does C batteries and figure out a) if it still works and b) if I'm remembering right that it can also do 9V so I know whether to cough up for a rechargeable one)... but then the day after I go to the store, it does it again!

so finally tonight, I got pissed off at the beeping (because it didn't stop after a couple hours this time) and took the 9V battery out of the carbon monoxide detector and put it into the smoke detector to shut it up. it worked... except the freaking carbon monoxide detector started beeping (way closer together, louder, and more annoying) about the battery being low. so I took the battery out, thinking that would shut it up - after all, why does it need a battery in the first place if it's plugged into an outlet? it KEPT throwing the fit about the battery!! I had to unplug it to shut the **** thing up because it's convinced it needs something that *I* know it doesn't need. so now I have to go buy it a battery and cough up money on something UNNECESSARY just to silence the horrendous beeping while still making sure I don't die on the 1 in a million chance I end up with a gas leak 'cause, you know, dying is bad.

anyway, just felt like ranting... stupid inanimate objects are ganging up on me!


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## whitelop

Our smoke detector is too sensitive. Its not in the kitchen, its in the living room on the wall that connects the kitchen to the living room. If there is even then *hint* of smoke, it goes off! It makes me nuts! I hate when they beep because the battery is low. Because they never stop! My carbon monoxide detector just plugs in and doesn't have a battery. Its for when your power goes out, you can still make sure you're not dying from a gas leak. Just get some canaries and if they fall out then you know you have a gas leak. hahhaaa. Do you have gas appliances? We only have a carbon monoxide detector because of our wood stove, in case is leaks gas? lmao.


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## Imbrium

yeah, I know the battery's for power outages, but if I wanna take it out I should be allowed to, **** it! 

we used to have a crazy-sensitive smoke alarm in our house in New Orleans... I think it was in the hallway right outside the kitchen and the oven was *just* inside the kitchen door. I remember mom waving a towel back and forth under it TONS of times after setting it off by opening the oven. the one here is in the living room on the opposite side as the kitchen, so there's like 20' of space and a wall between it and the kitchen.

I have a gas fireplace, furnace, stove, oven and water heater (and pool heater, though it's outside and hasn't been used in nearly a decade) so I figured with all those gas appliances, a CO detector wouldn't be the worst idea in the world.


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## Imbrium

question for those of you who are better at this whole "being an adult" thing than I am...

I'm sick as hell of looking at filthy white tile floors that always look dirty no matter how often I clean them (I literally vacuum and turn around and find new crap on the floors), plus there are some cracks in the tile. what I'd love to have is hardwood floors like the house in New Orleans had, but I can't even *begin* to afford that, lol. I was looking at this flooring - http://www.rubberflooringinc.com/interlocking-tile/foam/38-soft-wood-tile.html ... not as nice, but the same general look for a fraction of the price. it's also something I could install all by myself and it wouldn't require having the stupid tile floor ripped up (which, as I recall, creates a crapton of dust and noise and I have no idea what I'd do with all the animals while all that was going on).

I measured everything (pain in the butt 'cause the width and/or length of the areas change frequently) and calculated how many of the 2'x2' tiles I'd need... total cost would be about $610 (free shipping!) and I'd be covering approx. 440-450 square feet worth of floor. is that a good price for sanity or should I shop around some more?

also, should I go with the dark oak or light oak? I prefer the looks of the dark just looking at it on the computer, but I've got dark furniture that's a lot darker than the dark oak... not sure which would go better with that... plus it's hard to be sure I'd like the dark better looking at THAT much of it in the house, especially when I've had white flooring for 17 years.


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## ldoerr

I just asked my mom about your flooring situation (she just bought and installed about 1000 sqft of wood flooring in her house). She said that under $2 a sqft is a good price for flooring. If I were getting it installed I would go with the dark oak. The light oak is just too light and not good looking. That is just me though. The dark does not seem too dark.


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## whitelop

I would go with the dark oat finish too. Did I read that correctly, is that foam? Like what you put in a kids room? Thats freaking awesome! I want to get it for my son's room, to cover up our incredibly hard hardwood floors. hahaha. I'm not sure about the pricing, but I know what its like to have light colored tile floors. We used to gray tile and it was terrible. Ours were really porous or something, so EVERYTHING was attracted to it. I had to scrub the grout every week, on hands and knees with a toothbrush because it was always so stained. That was the biggest pain in my ass. EVER.


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## Imbrium

I actually placed the order this morning, 'cause it said the holiday sale ended Tuesday (though now it's wed. and it says "after-holiday sale" for 25% off/ends Tuesday, so I guess there's another week of it ). I went with the dark oak, it just seemed much prettier and I thought it would do a better job of not looking filthy all the **** time.

I can't believe you scrubbed the grout with a toothbrush weekly! mom never did that, and neither do I - I just let it look discolored and roll my eyes at it.

yes, the flooring is foam with the faux-wood stuff on the top. they also have a 5/8'' version for 30-40c more a square foot (the light oak version is on sale) that would be softer:
http://www.rubberflooringinc.com/interlocking-tile/foam/soft-wood-tile.html
http://www.rubberflooringinc.com/interlocking-tile/foam/58-soft-wood-tiles-2012.html

it doesn't say so on the sale page for the light oak, but shipping is free on both colors.

I'm so excited... even though it'll be a real pain in the butt to move furniture around to install the stuff, lol. I'll probably do a little at a time.


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## whitelop

I think the floor is really cool! I bet it will look good, post pictures when you're done! I want to see your tile too! I actually really hate tile, its so hard and cold. And yes I scrubbed it like that. It makes me nuts! AHHH. My house may have fur tumble weeds blowing through it, but there are a few things that really get me! Like fingerprints or lip prints on my wine glasses. Those things have to be pristine before I drink out of them! hahaha. And stained tile grout. I'm so glad I don't have anything tile anymore because I wouldn't have the time to clean it like I like and I would be miserable, lmao. Thats how it works in my head. And I can't stand hand prints on walls. Like, why are your hands on the walls? It KILLS me. I hate going to other peoples houses with white walls and stairs because for some reason no one knows how to hold onto the rail, they touch the wall. UGHHH, stop touching the walls. 
Wow, sorry. I just had a total moment about my weird house pet peeves. God, maybe I do need a xanax. (btw xanax is a palindrome, if no one else saw that)

OH and I wanted to ask you, can you litter train a hammy? Or do they need the bedding in the whole cage, they like to burrow into the bedding right? I'm so hammy illiterate. hahaha.


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## Imbrium

hammies need bedding in the whole cage to burrow in, but yes, it's often possible to litter train them to go pee in a little potty box... a lot of people use sand as substrate. failing that, they tend to naturally pick a corner to do their peeing... though unfortunately sometimes their pee corner and their sleep corner is the same (gross!).

I dunno why people would touch walls either. I mean, maybe if you tripped or lost your balance and were trying to catch/steady yourself... but that should be like one hand-print a month or something. it doesn't even make sense on stairs when there's a railing RIGHT THERE!

I totally don't want to share pictures of the tile, it's really dirty right now and it gets dirty again so promptly from ALL the darn animals. everything is SO cluttered, too, 'cause of all the cages.

oh yeah... so the bunnies gave me an early christmas present >.> I went to go to sleep on christmas eve and my air mattress was totally flat. I was surprised, as the slow leaks shouldn't have deflated it that far... tried to fill it up and heard air RUSHING out. quickly discovered that SOMEBUNNY NOMMED A SEAM OPEN! I found the repair kit that came with it, but the patches for larger repairs (which are the perfect size to fix this) require some sort of special glue that doesn't come with it if the hole/tear is on the fabric-y part (which it half is)... and ofc I couldn't buy the glue because it was christmas and everything was closed. I'm gonna have to go to home depot soon and get something to fix it. worthless little punks!

also, walmart sucks. the new TV I wanted (to replace one of the 17-year-old crap TVs, finally) isn't sold in stores so I had to order it online. site-to-store takes a stupidly long time, but they offered free shipping on it, which is faster. it said it would be delivered the 26th-31st and I was really hoping it would be here today for my birthday (last time I had something delivered from walmart, it only took two days, so I thought the odds were in my favor), but so far, no TV... and if it arrives now, I'll be too tired to fuss with hooking it up anyway ><


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## whitelop

Happy Birthday! :balloons:

I can't believe they chewed into your air mattress! They've been pretty good about it right?! I would be pissed. lol 
Thats pretty gross that hammies sleep in their pee area. But I guess its not much worse than rabbits, they sleep in their litter boxes too, so oh well. I think all animals are pretty gross! My dog smells like a dead animal right now, but who wants to give that beast a bath. lmao. 
(As I was typing this, my son ate something off the floor and I have no idea what it was. Probably ham. Eww. Floor ham) 

Ughh, with the walls! Why would you touch them? I don't get it! My friends parents house is the WORST. They have teenage aged children, but they're 19 and 18. So thats definitely old enough to know how to KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF THE FREAKING WHITE WALLS! The whole stairway is like blackish along both sides, like a foot above and below the railing. Really? Get a freaking mr clean magic eraser, they're the best for anything! I hate going over there. Well, and they have 3 dogs, 2 being large breeds and none of them are totally house broken, at the ages of like 6, 5 and a puppy. So thats disgusting! eww. I'm grossing myself out now. I need to clean my house now! I'm having anxiety.


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## Chrisdoc

That's something that mine would do, chewing through the air bed haha.

I hate people marking walls, why is it so difficult to walk down stairs without touching the walls and especially if you've got dirty hands. I'm not obsessive about cleaning but I do like the house to smell nice and am obsessive about he bunnies area being smelly which is why I'm always running around picking up after them and changing their litter regularly. 

I laughed when you talked about the dogs. I have a friend who has four dogs and she hardly takes them out. She lives in an apartment and they pee and poop on the terrace and she cleans up after them and she thinks this is normal....yeeeeahhh :shame When I got out of the life to go to the door, it was open and I could smell the house before I actually saw it. I used to go up more but I hate going up there cos it smells so bad and I don't think she'd appreciate me telling her......yuuukkkk some people can put up with anything.


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## holtzchick

Awh happy birthday to you. I would join in on the cleaning rant but I'm way too tired.... It's a shame about the mattress hopefully you'll find a different solution. Oh and I hope your tv gets there soon, I gotta buy me one of those


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## ldoerr

Happy Bday  :balloons: I am SOOO NOT a clean freak. You will probably think that this is HORIBLE but I have only vacuumed my apt 4 times in the year that I have lived there. :vacuum: I HATE cleaning. I also have barely any sense of smell so it takes a bit for me to notice if anything sticks or what.


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## whitelop

Lauren, that IS pretty gross!  If I didn't vacuum everyday or every other day, I would be walking around in knee deep fur. My dog sheds so much, year round. Plus I have three indoor/outdoor cats. So the fur would probably be so thick, I could walk on top of it. lmao. People would be like "oh when did you get carpet?" I would be like, "oh, we didn't. Thats fur. I just stopped vacuuming and made a carpet with it." lmao. That would be hilarious. My husband was only half listening when I was telling him about this and he said "what? you want to vacuum quarterly? I don't think so. I'm pretty sure the fur would push us out of the house, if we weren't careful" Then he went back to playing his game. lmao. I'm cracking myself up over here! hahaha. I'm sorry y'all, I feel a little crazy right now. :humour: 

Jennifer, I hope you had a good birthday and here's a little cake. :littlecake I made it just for you!


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## ldoerr

The fur is not a big deal here. I have a short haired cat that I got around Halloween, the 2 rabbits who I groom on the deck, and a couple of fish tanks that I am trying to get rid of. O and a dog that visits 1x every month or 2 for a weekend. I do more shedding than all the animals combined. I have REALLY long red hair that clogs vacuums in 10 minutes. If my hair did not clog my vacuum every 5-10 minutes (not making that time up) that made it so I have to spend 2 hrs unclogging it, I would probably vacuum more.


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## whitelop

Jennifer, since you posted about those wood finish floor tiles, I can't stop thinking about them! I want them! I have hardwoods, but we have a front room(that was a front porch until the 70's) and the floor isn't great in there and its drafty. I would love to put those tiles in there on the floor and then make that room a play room for my son! lol 
My husband is not going to be happy when I bring up alternate flooring! hahaha. We're already about to paint my kitchen this weekend, he's going to kill me.


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## Imbrium

whitelop said:


> Happy Birthday! :balloons:
> 
> I can't believe they chewed into your air mattress! They've been pretty good about it right?! I would be pissed. lol
> 
> Ughh, with the walls! Why would you touch them? I don't get it! My friends parents house is the WORST. They have teenage aged children, but they're 19 and 18. So thats definitely old enough to know how to KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF THE FREAKING WHITE WALLS! The whole stairway is like blackish along both sides, like a foot above and below the railing. Really? Get a freaking mr clean magic eraser, they're the best for anything! I hate going over there. Well, and they have 3 dogs, 2 being large breeds and none of them are totally house broken, at the ages of like 6, 5 and a puppy. So thats disgusting! eww. I'm grossing myself out now. I need to clean my house now! I'm having anxiety.



yeah, I'm more than a little miffed about the air mattress ssd:

as for the rant about walls, I'm honestly not really bothered by wall-touching in general... but WTF is wrong with those people that their hands are THAT filthy to leave black marks on the walls???

I mean, I'm hardly a clean-freak and/or germaphobe to where I wash my hands a crazy number of times each day, but I've never left a hand print on a wall I've touched! I wash my hands at normal intervals - if I'm getting ready to fix food, about to wash veggies for the bunnies, after I pee, all that good stuff... and if for some reason my hands get really dirty (tending the garden, poking around under the hood of the car, etc.) or I feel like I've just done something potentially germy (cleaning animal cages/bunny litter boxes, taking out the trash, etc.), the FIRST thing I do is wash my hands. it's common freaking sense that if your hands are filthy, you should WASH them... and NOT FREAKING TOUCH ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE FAUCET until you do!


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## Imbrium

whitelop said:


> Jennifer, since you posted about those wood finish floor tiles, I can't stop thinking about them! I want them! I have hardwoods, but we have a front room(that was a front porch until the 70's) and the floor isn't great in there and its drafty. I would love to put those tiles in there on the floor and then make that room a play room for my son! lol
> My husband is not going to be happy when I bring up alternate flooring! hahaha. We're already about to paint my kitchen this weekend, he's going to kill me.



lol, just keep reminding him how pretty hardwood floors are and how much cheaper this is. if you want something *really* soft and cheap, you could even look at http://www.rubberflooringinc.com/interlocking-tile/foam/12-eco-soft-tile.html - it's 95c a square foot on sale right now with free shipping! I was drooling over the low price for the bunny pen until I had an "oh duh" moment where I realized they could totally chew foam up... which meant I had to go with plastic tiles at a little more than twice the cost for their pen . they should be virtually indestructible, though, and they come in a bunch of colors... including a really pretty blueish-purple (which ofc I had to get even though it doesn't go with my living room at all ) - http://www.rubberflooringinc.com/garage/diamond-grid-loc-tiles.html


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## whitelop

So you did order the hard plastic garage tiles too? Those things are awesome! I could find so many uses for those things. Ahhh, so many activities! I'm going to keep bringing it up to my husband until he buys me either the wood grained ones or the hard tiles! I'll figure a use out for them, lol. 
But the hard tiles will be great in your living room with the girls! Easy clean up AND they can't ruin it by eating it. That was an awesome buy!


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## Imbrium

yeah, darn bunnies and their $238 christmas prezzie! I figure it's worth the sanity gain of not having to sweep the stupid tarp for the next 10 years, though - with the tiles, I can actually vacuum with the shop-vac without it sucking the flooring up into the nozzle, lol. also circumvents the possibility of them figuring out how to shred the tarp at some point... plus, it's purple! I'll probably still leave the tarp down, since it'd be a fair amount of effort to get it up (moving the condo is a bitch, and I plan to tile around it rather than under it), plus if anything ever manages to seep through the cracks where the tiles connect, it won't make it to the carpet.

btw, if you hadn't already noticed, you can get up to 3 free samples of flooring from that site (no shipping fees, either)!


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## holtzchick

Seems like you've always got a home/bunny related project on the go! I was always the same. 

You must post pictures after you've tiled. I would love to see the floor too!


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## Chrisdoc

Take my hat off to you and it's going to look great once you've finished it all. The tiles are so cool, wish we could get things so easily over here and free shipping to boot. And yes, mine would chew the foam no problem. I have marble floors, they do look really nice but they are a nightmare as they do stain very easily. Luckily, they haven't been too bad for the boys except they're really slippy but I have non slip rugs all over now so they don't slide all over the place and so they have somewhere to sit as it's really cold on the floor in the winter. Love getting all these ideas though, what we could do in an ideal world.


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## Imbrium

in an ideal world, my bunny habitat would be twice as big, I'd have a garden in there for them (protected so they can only eat the topmost part of the plants and not the main body, of course) that wouldn't die from lack of sunlight and the whole thing would be self-cleaning! 

also, dust wouldn't exist, because ****, do I hate dusting!!


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## Chrisdoc

Hahaha I agree, dusting is my big hate as well and over here, it accumulates from one day to the next and when the sun shines through the window, it looks as though I NEVER dust. I also wish the hay and straw would stay where it's supposed to and not stick to everything. I was out the other day and my friend pulled a piece out of my hair, uuuuuuhhhh.


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## Imbrium

I've found hay in my underwear more than once, heh. found an oat in there the other day... wtf??


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## whitelop

lmao. I find hay all over the place too. I just put a scoop of cat food in the bowl and it had hay in it. My son just picked up a piece of hay the other day and was rubbing it on his face. It was the furry end of the timothy. hahah. I guess it was stuck to my pants or something, because he isn't allowed in the kitchen. The plus to that is, I now know he isn't allergic to hay. 
There was a period of time when Foo's cage was up on a counter thing, and I had to scoop pellets from the cabinet she was above. I always wear hoodies in the winter and it was winter time. I went into a store one night and pulled out my card and handful of pellets from feeding Foo. That happened on multiple occasions. I went to a friends house and I was getting my phone out of my pocket and some pellets fell out. haha. People look at you strange when things like that happen. Or the corn I feed my chickens, I wore my boots to my friends house not to long ago and there was something in there the whole time I was driving. So I got there and took my boot off to get whatever it was out. It was a whole kernel of corn from feeding my chickens earlier that day. They just looked at me like I was nuts.


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## Chrisdoc

Do I laugh at all this. Yes, it just gets everywhere. I found some oat hay in the sleeve of my jumper last week, it was scratching my arm like mad and I couldn't understand how so much had got up there. Hay is my pet hate right now as I seem to be forever sweeping it up, they are such messy boys, I'm sure they do it on purpose some times cos they know I hate it...little devils


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## Imbrium

after the dozenth time a weird crabbing noise comes out of your chest in the middle of the store and someone nearby gives you the weirdest look as you sheepishly explain "sugar gliders", you learn to get used to people looking at you like you're nuts, lol.


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## Imbrium

I'm on a break right now, but I'm going a bit nuts on my house tonight. we have these HUGE trash bins in my neighborhood and mine's stuffed full, so I'm about to go annex my next-door-neighbor's half full trash bin, lol. I've thrown out so much crap... just going through, "don't need that, don't need that, don't need that..." and tossing it. de-clutterfying the whole house is a seemingly insurmountable ordeal, but I'm putting a pretty good dent in it! I found canned goods and stuff in the pantry (which is off in the laundry room) that were mom's, heh... meaning over 7 years old.

I rediscovered the little craft room that's been "dead to me" for years and realized it wouldn't actually be *that* big of a bitch to clean out and organize (after the trash has been picked up and I can work on filling the can again, hehe) - that's a lot of space to stuff things so they won't be in the main part of the house! I put my kitty's ginormous 3-story tower thingy that's taller than I am in there and disassembled/tossed a little kitty gym that was too dusty to bother repurposing into a rabbit toy - both were in a corner by the back door, which is now a nifty hay-storage spot near the "back" entrance to the bunny pen (there's two playpens, so two built-in doors - one by my bedroom, the other on the opposite corner near the kitchen).

I'm about half-done cleaning out the breakfast nook... there's a LOT of space there now. I think when I go to redo the floors, I'll start by the back door and move into the breakfast nook - once that area is finished, I can cram a bunch of hammy cages in there while I do the other floors. heck, I might move some of the hammies there permanently to open up my dining room/parlor area more.


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## whitelop

Thats really awesome! Doesn't it feel SO good to let all that crap go and feel the openness of your own house?! I love throwing crap away. But I also love collecting crap too, lol. And then once the piano goes to Joe, you'll have a lot more space. Its so exciting!


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## ldoerr

I wish that I could do that but I have a hard time getting rid of junk. I always think that I will use it again for something. Like I have an old tiny beanbag chair that I want to just throw away, but my mom wants me to donate it. I might just toss it out when I go back to my apt next year.


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## Chrisdoc

I'm always clearing stuff away or trying to anyway. Easier since I got the bunnies as my living room has to be minimal. However, why, when people ask you if you want something that you don't really need do you always say yes and then clutter up what you've just cleared, I think sometimes we have this instinct to hoard things and not be able to let somethings go.


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## Imbrium

yeah, there's tons of stuff that I don't really need but know I won't actually get rid of "just in case"... but there's also a lot of stuff in the house that I'm bringing myself to part with. I ended up annexing the half-full trash bins of my neighbors on BOTH sides, lol, then called it a night. I've got a little more work to do to finish up, but my breakfast nook is almost done being "dead to me" which is really exciting! the only thing I don't know how to deal with to get the room done is that the light burned out a long time back >< I'm pretty sure there's something wrong with the socket 'cause when it first went out, I tried a new bulb with no luck.

oh, and I remembered why I hate trying to get the stupid house in order. the garbage disposal isn't working (pretty sure I need a new one) and the light by the front door was flickering really weird so I turned it off, then the next time I tried to turn it on, it wouldn't come on at all. I *hope* it's just the bulb, though I'm not looking forward to trying to change it 'cause it's a weird PITA fixture and I'm scared there's gonna be creepy dead bugs in it. why is it always when I try to get my act together that extra stuff breaks and sets me back??

on a pet-related note, I slept with the gliders again yesterday... didn't have the air mattress fixed, so I just put the tent on my bed, lol. it stays fairly warm in there, but I did get a little bit chilly so I had a little fleece blankie pulled up to my waist. I went to bed 2-3h before Hurricane usually does and just left her playing around in there... fell asleep on my side. when she decided it was sleepy time, she crawled under the blankie, climbed up onto the top of my hip, curled up in a little ball with just her face sticking into the pocket of my pajama pants and went to sleep! it was SO FREAKING CUTE!

I usually wake up and roll over onto my stomach or my other side 2-4x by the time I'm done sleeping but every time I woke up, she was still on my hip and I couldn't bring myself to move her so I just stayed put, lol. she slept like that for a good 10h. I LOVE that she chose to cuddle with me instead of sleeping with bitchy little Trouble!


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## Chrisdoc

Oh that is so cool. I´d be terrified of rolling over and squashing her but I´m sure I´d have stayed put just not to disturb her. It´s great that they feel comfortable enough with you to do this. 

I hate lights and light switches. The bulb went on the security light at the entrance to my friend´s house so I bought a new on (she never has spares) and got the ladders out, tool box to get it apart, fitted the bulb and had to wait until it got dark to try it out. When I got back that night, it didn´t work.....aaaarrrrgghhhhh. I wasn´t going to mess about looking at it again so I just left it. Last night when I got home, it worked....what is the matter with these things ??? Do they they just go on the blink to annoy us, it really bugs me.:grumpy::tantrum:


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## Imbrium

good news!! I've got someone coming by around 9 am tomorrow to pick out a hammy baby  I'm also talking to someone else right now who I think is gonna buy one of my banded sable babies.

in other exciting news, my wood-looking flooring arrived today (seems silly it arrived before the plastic tiles for the bunny pen and the free samples when I ordered it a day later, but they used different shipping carriers for the two orders). I've already got some of it laid down by the back door and starting into the breakfast nook. they had it divided up into six boxes, making it easy to move around and store.

some of the corners where tiles meet aren't the best design (I've gotta cut a tiny piece to make them fit), and the seams are a little more noticeable than I'd like (kinda worried about debris getting stuck in them), but overall it looks pretty and any minor grumbles I have over it fall into the "you get what you pay for" category - $600 floors aren't going to look the same as 10k floors . my biggest grievance is with the dimensions of the flooring - there's a lot of places where the floor goes 1-2'' past where the last tile ends, so when I'm done I'm going to have to cut apart a tile or two to fill stuff in.

my girls are eating SOOO much hay! I've put a huge handful of hay in their box a bunch of times today. I even spotted Gazzles eating "breakfast pellets" in the afternoon! I've NEVER seen them leave some pellets in the bowl that long while on grass hay.


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## Imbrium

hot ****!! the second person I was talking to wants TWO hamsters... without cages, which means I only have three more cages to finish now instead of five, and this solves my problem of being one wheel short due to Lucky's miraculous recovery. I'm going down to the south-side to meet her now... we're meeting at the Chili's at a mall there, so nice and public


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## ldoerr

That is GREAT that they are taking 2 hammies. Are you going to bring them all so that she can pick the 2 she wants or are you just going to bring 2 and she does not get to choose? I REALLY wish that I could get one for you but it is not a posibility. My parents say ABSOLUTELY no, + lots of other reasons. I just want one because they are cute.


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## whitelop

That is so great that the hammies are going to new homes! YAAY! :bunnydance: 

I don't know how you slept with a glider in your pocket. lmao. I would have been paranoid I would smush one. Do they poop on you? hahaha. Is Trouble a bitch to Hurricane too? 

I'm so glad your girls are eating hay! Thats so exciting! I'm glad you got the good hay, it must be well worth the money(and I'm so glad it is! Its pricey)


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## Imbrium

Trouble's not usually directly a bitch to Hurricane, but she'll crab at her if she gets in the line of fire (Hurricane will come "investigate" when I'm holding Trouble and trying to calm her down.

I guess I'm not paranoid about the gliders because I *was* paranoid when I first started sleeping with the bunnies and I quickly realized how still I stay when I'm sleeping/how conscious I am of what little moving I do. even if I did roll over on a glider, the mattress has a lot of give and they can wiggle through 1/2'' spaces, so I imagine they'd be ok (not that it makes me any less aware of where they're at when I'm sleeping).

I'm officially down to 12 hammies! it was a 20 min drive, about 10 mins outside the chili's at the mall and then a 20 min drive home, but it was worth it to be rid of two of the little buggers. I offered to meet somewhere rather than have her come here because she specifically wanted the female banded sable and female banded golden umbrous for her and her husband/boyfriend/whatever so there was no need for her to look through 'em all to pick someone out. ended up working well that way, since they live near poteet (a small town south of San Antonio) so we were basically meeting at a halfway point.

she was SO excited to see the hammies, lol - I have a feeling they'll be very happy and well cared for in their new home. she was very pleasantly surprised that I included a half-full ziplock baggie of the food I have them on and a little bag of sunflower seeds to go with it so they'd have food to use until they either buy more of what I feed or get the hammies transitioned to new food. I boxed the hammies up in little 6''x6''x6'' sturdy cardboard boxes (with air holes courtesy of the scratch awl) and put carefresh in the bottoms and gave them a couple food blocks, some kale and some willow sticks so they'd have snacks and something to do on the road trip. I also gave 'em one of my care packets which has various info, including a list of hammy-safe fresh/people foods (with asterisks by the foods I've already introduced), what the good hamster forums are, my vet's info, my contact info, etc. and made sure to tell them that if something ever happened and they couldn't keep the hammies, they could bring them back to me.


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## Imbrium

I found a major downside to deep-cleaning... with all the dirt and dust and clutter and cobwebs gone, it becomes glaringly apparent that the kitchen wall-paper has, uh, "seen better days" and that all the painted woodwork could *really* stand to be repainted ><

I've got the breakfast nook totally done now... after I tossed all the clutter and cleaned the windowsill, shelf and walls, I moved the table into the kitchen/the chair into the laundry room (dunno WTF happened to the second chair, probably buried under cardboard boxes in the back bedroom, lol) and swept (like 5 times *grumble*) and mopped the floor. it should be dry now, so I'm about to go put down more foam flooring. that should get me to around 20% done... unfortunately, it's the easiest 20% because the area I'm doing first has the least amount of furniture. up next is the fridge area... part of me wants to tile under it so it looks better, but part of me is scared as hell of what might be behind/under the fridge! I can't finish the kitchen until the new dishwasher comes anyway, though, as the foam is soft/easily scratched and I don't want to risk having the dishwasher moved over it. man, I can't wait to have the dishwasher and garbage disposal working again!


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## Chrisdoc

Great that you´ve managed to home some of the hammies at last, maybe it´s a sign that they´ll all soon be taken. 

Hahaha, yes that´s is downside as once you start cleaning one part, you really have to do it all as it can look as though it´s seen better days. 

Flooring sounds really good for the price, wish there was something similar priced here but everything is so expensive. 

Wish mine would heat more hay. They do eat a lot but, I don´t think enough but it´s so hard to find something they really like. I was getting so excited when my friend went to Gibraltar and said he´d managed to get two bags of the hay from there. I was so looking forward to collecting it and when I got it from him, it turns out that it was straw instead of hay.....what a bummer i was do gutted but just had to smile and thank him. Anyway, I´ve decided to use it to make their litter trays more comfortable and have also put some in the bottom of their cages and they seem to like it plus they can chew on it if they want. I suppose to everyone else, it all looks the same !!!


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## Imbrium

I'm down to 11 hamsters! got rid of my banded sable male just now. the woman was really nice, we talked a LOT by email last night. she came down with her husband and 3-year-old son to pick out a hamster and I spent 30-40 minutes chatting with them, showing off all the animals and answering questions. when she first mentioned her son last night, she immediately commented "don't worry, the hamster's for me, not him" hehe. he seemed to do well with the hamsters, though - he was good with ground rules like "no picking them up". both parents asked a lot of really good questions and it sounds like they'll take great care of him. I couldn't help grinning when her husband commented "see, isn't this so much better than going to a pet store?" as I was going through the care packet and answering their questions about feeding fresh foods/showing them the list I printed out for them of safe/unsafe stuff. they liked my coroplast playpen, too


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## Chrisdoc

Isn´t it great when somebody says something really nice that makes you feel good. And yes, definitely better than going to the pet store buying from someone who cares about these little ones and can give loads of useful advice. Hope you are lucky in finding homes for all of them.


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## Imbrium

yeah, I was so happy that they really liked my cage and starter kit - I worked really hard on that stuff to make sure anyone I sold a hamster to would have *everything* they needed to get started, even if they hadn't done much research. I also like that I'm not trying to sell anything they haven't already agreed to buy, so I have no reason to steer them towards crap they don't need or hammies shouldn't have, like pet stores do - they get honest answers from someone who actually *owns* the pet they're selling, has done all the research, and has the animal's (and owners') best interests in mind. the babies came into this world on my watch with the promise of good lives, and I take that to heart. I'm losing some money in all this and it's been a lot of work, but I'm still glad I bought Misty instead of letting her have her babies in a pet store or get shipped back to the hammy mill or whatever they do with a knocked-up female.


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## Chrisdoc

Aaahhh you are such a great mommy to all your animals. I´m always amazed you have the time to look after so many as I find it so time consuming with just the three buns so you are really amazing. Your little hammies will all go to loving homes and with all the information they need to give them a happy little life. I´d hate to think what might have happened to her and her litter had they not come into your life.


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## Imbrium

I'm not working right now, which is why I have so much time for all the little ones. I feel like I've been neglecting the bunnies a bit lately, though - ever since they chewed through the seam in my air mattress, I've been spending less time in their pen and haven't been sleeping in there. they still get attention, of course... just not as much. I'm going to fix it today and set up my new TV in there. luckily, they don't seem to mind whether I'm there or not as long as they get their pellets and veggies and hay at the normal intervals, lol. I felt bad this morning, I gave them a HUGE pile of hay before I went to bed - more than usual - and it was ALL gone when I woke up! before, if they ate all the "good" stuff, they had a layer of coastal underneath to ignore, so I didn't feel bad when their hay ran out because if they were THAT hungry, they could've eaten the coastal. I dumped their box yesterday morning, though, and quit putting coastal in the bottom (I was doing that when they were getting a couple handfuls of regular alfalfa a day because the coastal stopped the alfalfa leaves from falling through the grid). I'm gonna take the coastal out of their hay feeder in the condo (which they never use because it never has "good" hay in it) and fill that with the new stuff too so that they have a back-up.

I've been chatting via email with the woman who came with her family to pick out a hamster yesterday morning... they're so in love with the little fella already, and still asking various questions to make sure they're doing everything right . I'm *very* pleased with the new home Percy has found for himself.


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## Chrisdoc

Love the name, what a great name for a little hammie, so glad he's in his lovely new home and they are smitten.

I'm sure you've nearly forgiven them now for eating the air mattress and they will be pleased that mummy's not to mad with them now. 

I can't keep up with all these different kinds of hay....mine are liking the one I bought from the local department store now but still prefer the meadow hay from Gibraltar so I'll see next week if I can get hold of some of that again. They do love the straw though that my friend brought back for me from Gibraltar when I thought he'd brought the other. I am finding it useful as now, I have put loads in their litter trays and put it also with the pulp bedding in the second cage and they love it. It must be warmer to sleep on. 

Have a great new year Jennifer and will see you again in 2013 as we'll be there just over 4 hours. 

Big bun hugs from mine to yours :bunnyheart


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## Hyatt101

How is lucky doing? Can we have more pics of hammies, gliders, and bunnies??


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## Imbrium

ugh, pics... I dread them now, so much arguing with the computer to get them posted! I'm really mad that I went through the whole long arguing process and never was able to get the videos of them on the agility course uploaded. I'll try to get around to it sometime soon, though.


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## Imbrium

argh!! talking to the home depot guy to schedule my dishwasher's delivery... turns out because it's not in stock at my local store, it won't be available until the 13th *cry*

to top it off, we were talking about measurements/specs and it looks like my opening for the dishwasher is 34'' and the new dishwasher claims to be 34 1/2'', so it might not fit... but ALL the whirlpool dishwashers say the same height and I *really* have my heart set on whirlpool, so I'm just going to pray that it'll go in there (like maybe the floor is lower where the dishwasher hole is because there's no tile floor in there).

it had better fit, **** it!!

oh, AND they can't install the garbage disposal! >< guess I'll have to try to do it myself and call a plumber if I fail.


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## Imbrium

wow, so while I was on the phone, I suddenly felt something wet and a little warm hitting my shin (I'm wearing shorts at the moment, with a T-shirt that has a built-in glider pouch)... turns out one of the gliders (which I eventually determined was Trouble, as the base of her tail was damp) peed SO much that it soaked through 2 layers of pretty thick fleece and a layer of thick cotton (making a pretty big damp spot) and came out the front of my shirt as a freaking STREAM (instead of just dribbling down the front/being absorbed by the shirt). the bladder on that little girl... geez! at first, I assumed she must've gotten up on the screen window and peed through that to have so much hit my leg... but nope, straight through the most absorbent part. I've NEVER had either of them pee in such volume while in a pouch before (or while I was holding them). I'm both impressed and a little disgruntled, lol.


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## ldoerr

Thanks for the laugh Jennifer  I needed that. I always find it funny as to what such small creatures are capable of producing.


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## whitelop

I hope your new dishwasher fits! Its always a pain in the ass when things like that come up. 

Thats pretty funny/gross about Trouble peeing on you! That is A LOT of pee! Ew. Ellie peed on my not too long ago and it was pretty gross and warm. And my kid has peed on me. Its amazing the amount of pee that will come out of such tiny animals and babies! hahaha. Critters are gross.


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## JBun

You could try going to Home Depot and measuring a whirlpool washer to see if it really is 34 1/2. You could probably do the garbage disposal, as long as the instructions are decent and all the connections are the same. You will need the right tools to install it. They usually list what you will need on the instructions. One thing about the disposal is that usually the dishwasher drain connects into the disposal, so you may want to get your new disposal in before you get your dishwasher and it gets installed.


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## Imbrium

ldoerr said:


> Thanks for the laugh Jennifer  I needed that. I always find it funny as to what such small creatures are capable of producing.



you should see how much poop can come out of those things! they're SO tiny, yet the poop just keeps coming and coming... especially Trouble when I'm holding her and she's throwing her fits. I've gotta keep a pile of kleenex next to us >.>

on a side note, I'm still SO PISSED I have to wait another two weeks for my **** dishwasher!! I've already waited like 6 years, and I want it NOW! (*wanders off to scrub suggie dishes and kitchens, which is such a pain*... those little buggers throw their food EVERYWHERE)


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## Chrisdoc

Jennifer, I do love coming on here and I so laugh at your little quibbles with your domestic appliances, I do hope the dishwasher fits.

What a laugh with Trouble, a never ending stream enough to soak through is a lot for a little guy. I remember we took my dog when she was a puppy on a trip with us in my then boyfriend's truck. She peed the who time and so much that he ended up calling her the mop hahaha. 

We don't have garbage disposals over here, we just have to go down and throw it all out in the bins so I'm amazed if you're gonna have a go at fitting you. It's the handywoman in your house, hey, I've got a few jobs I need doing in mine, I could do with someone like you. I'm okay with electrics but haven't got a clue when it comes to plumbing.


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## Imbrium

I don't have a clue about plumbing either, lol... it's *supposedly* easy (and hopefully comes with instructions!), so I think I'll at least take a look and determine if it seems like an approachable task. if not, that's what plumbers are for! I'm a little concerned that not only does the disposal not work, but that side of the sink is very slow to drain... so I may just go the plumber route right off the bat.



JBun said:


> One thing about the disposal is that usually the dishwasher drain connects into the disposal, so you may want to get your new disposal in before you get your dishwasher and it gets installed.



just saw this post... heh... little late for that - the disposal and dishwasher arrive together, and the dishwasher gets installed on the spot. maybe I will just call a plumber. the bath tub drain is slow-moving and not responding to drano anyway, so I could kill two birds with one stone.


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## JBun

Drano sucks!!! You have to get this drain cleaner that plumbers use. It's this crystalized stuff, probably poisonous, but it works great. Slow moving drains open right up. I get mine at a local plumbing supply. It's called Glug, but I don't know if it's a national brand. 

If you decide to give the disposal a try and get stuck, I may be able to help. I'm no plumber, but I did manage to get ours installed. And it even works


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## Imbrium

oh yeah, I forgot, I tried that too. that ****'s SCARY. the drain was actually clogged at that point, and when the crystals hit the little bit of water left in there after I wet-vac'd the rest out... ugh... let's just say I wish I'd thought to wear a mask in addition to the recommended safety goggles, 'cause I was basically choking on fumes until I was able to flee the bathroom.


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## JBun

Lol, definitely not for full on clogs. Your lucky you have lungs and a face left! That stuff is toxic if it's coming up and not going down the drain! But it does work! If it doesn't kill or maim you first


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## Imbrium

bah, it's only monday (well, technically tuesday morning)... trash doesn't come until friday and I've already filled my big-ass bin again. at the rate I'm cleaning, I might just stuff a few bags in the backseat of my car and "annex" the dumpster in the apartment complex behind my house, lol. now that I'm *finally* tackling the stupid house, I really don't want to slow down to wait for trash collection!


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## Imbrium

I could swear the stuff I got said it worked for full clogs - I wouldn't have bought it if it didn't. it's called crystal heat or something like that. the issue was that after you dump it in, you've gotta cover the drain with something to where only a little air can get out (I used a plastic cake container lid with a small section cut out)... and to do that, you have to freaking bend over the drain that you've just poured the noxious, stifling chemicals into that are already doing their whole chemical reaction thing... I really didn't think the fumes would be that explosive (in terms of how they spread up and out).


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## Imbrium

some things to be learned from my last four days...
~ those Mr. Clean magic eraser things are pretty **** nifty
~ depression does horrible things to a house when you live alone
~ deep-cleaning is kinda nuts when it hasn't been done in five years and clutter has gotten piled up everywhere. if you guys could see before and after pics of the stuff I've gotten done, you might not even think it was the same house (granted, new floors help)... or at the very least, would never have guessed that the after pics looked like the before a few days ago. no, there are NOT before and after pics. no one but me is going to know just how bad the house got.
~ eight hamster cages do a much better job of drowning out my TV while I'm in the kitchen when they're in the breakfast nook instead of the dining room.
~ it was better when you could have multiple big trash cans instead of just one large city-issued bin can... then again, when you could have all those trash cans, all you got was a green plastic tub for recycling instead of the big city-issued bin (same size as the trash one). it was also better when trash got picked up 2x a week instead of once.
~ large portions of my house look like a real house again! I've literally done a little *happydance* more than once while viewing my accomplishments.
~ holidays SUCK. the bunny pen *really* needs cleaning, but I can't clean it because then they'll just mess it up again and I'm going to have to DEEP clean it before I put out their new plastic tile flooring. said flooring arrived in San Antonio at 9:59 pm on Friday... yet it doesn't get delivered until WEDNESDAY because of the **** weekend and **** holidays. I want the flooring now so I can clean now. then again, I should probably sleep instead, lol. still, I want it tomorrow. I hate waiting!!


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## holtzchick

Happy new year! 

I'm glad to hear how much you've learned in the past week  
Honestly I find cleaning is an outlet for my anger. It really really works, so my house is always spotless. 

And yes, holidays really do suck, I hate them and kind of like to avoid them. 

Blah, shipping is always a mess during the holidays but you've waited for so long that a few more days won't hurt right?

I was VERY glad to read that your hammy "Percy" got a great home !  I love when people love their animals.


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## Imbrium

well, home depot has made a small amount of progress towards redeeming themselves for this **** "closing an hour early after DST hits" crap. I only had one blade for my box-cutters... I noticed yesterday the foam tiles seemed harder to cut/edges were a little raggedy and then it occurred to me the blade might've gotten dull, so I flipped it around and the tiles got MUCH easier to cut... until it got dull again. Home Depot was actually open today and I was able to get new blades . I got some fancy-ass titanium-edged blades... more than twice as much as the standard ones, but still only $3 for 5 and hopefully they'll last a lot longer.

I also picked up some screw eyes... I've been trying to figure out how on earth I could use playpens or NIC fencing to block access to some parts of my house for when I bunny-sit Q-tip without her being able to knock them down or push them out of the way. my first thought was to use rocks to hold them in place, lol, though I have my doubts that that would've worked. my second thought was to zip-tie cardboard ALL around the bottom of my girls' pen so they and tippy couldn't fight through the bars... but that didn't solve the issue of not being at all sure I was willing to trust Q-tip with a leather sofa.

at some point, it occurred to me that I could put in some screw eyes and then zip-tie the fencing to them. my walls are craptastic in the places where I'd want to connect pens anyway, so I could care less about adding a couple holes... and if, god forbid, Nala and Gaz's bond severs at any point down the road, I've got a back-up plan where they could both be fenced in without being able to fight through the fencing. basically, I'll be walling off the living room so tippy can't get into it (around the edges of my bunnies' pen).

I have a couple wall-mounted lamps in the parlor area where I'll have to bunny-proof the cords and I'll have to take the heating lamps off of the outside of the glider cage (they won't need 'em by late spring anyway) because that's a whole mess of cords, but other than that, I shouldn't have to do anything else but pray she doesn't like the taste of my china cabinet or my foam tile flooring. worst case scenario, I can wall off the cabinet and pull up the flooring since it's not like it's glued down or anything.


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## ldoerr

At my parents house they have a 45g recycling bin (that they over fill each week). That gets picked up 1x per week (fridays). They also can have as many trash cans as they want and are not issued 1. The main trash gets picked up 2x per week. Also you do not have to use trash cans. Often people will have 20 of the big black bags out at the curb and they get taken away 2x per week. I thought that everywhere was like that. I live in an apt complex. We have 3 dumpsters that get picked up 3x per week (under 125 apt total at the complex). 

Good luck with cleaning. I am sure that there is a public dump where you can take your stuff and dump it. They have those everywhere in Spring.


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## Imbrium

45g sounds like that's probably about the size of our bins... when we switched to the bin system, though, the trash pick-up dropped down to 1x a week and you can *only* use the bin now as opposed to trashcans/bags.

I *could* drive miles to the dump with what little can fit in my car... or I could just annex the apartment complex dumpster, which is practically right behind my house and way more convenient, lol.


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## whitelop

Jennifer you're lucky you have a trash service. We do not have that, we have to take our trash to the dump. While it allows me to throw whatever I want outside into our many trashcans, we still have to drive that stinking ass stuff to the dump every few days.

It does feel good to throw a bunch of stuff away and get everything clean and organized. It also makes you feel good to see the progress you've made with getting everything together!


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## Imbrium

urgh, so I managed to sleep for like 22h yesterday, I have no idea how. I felt REALLY bad about sleeping so long even though everyone still had water and at least some sort of food when I woke up. I was 4h late giving the sugar gliders a fresh dinner (they had yesterday's leftovers and some snack pellets, though) and the bunnies were really low on hay, but not actually out (good thing I went overboard before I went to bed because of how they ran out the other day, and I stuffed their back-up hay container full too). I felt so bad, I gave them a tiny extra bit of pellets and a romaine heart with breakfast even though they usually don't get veggies until lunch. the hammies were totally fine, since they only get fed every few days anyway.

as for the romaine hearts, I find them very weird... first of all, what happens to the rest of the lettuce that they sell the hearts alone? salad mix or something? secondly, I usually buy green or red leaf lettuce 'cause it's $1.48 a head vs romaine being $1.89-$1.99 a head... but then I was at the big HEB and saw this thing of six romaine hearts for $3.48. it actually looked like a good deal, so I weighed a bag of six hearts and then I weighed a head of green-leaf lettuce and it turns out that the romaine hearts came out to like $1 per lb or just over that vs .6 lb of green-leaf lettuce for $1.48, making the hearts WAY cheaper! who would've thought, lol. the hearts have a bit more of the stemmy whiteish parts of the lettuce, which Nala really likes anyway.

I KNOW I had my TV remote when I woke up because I used it to turn on the TV so that I could see to get out of my room and go tend to the poor animals... but then when I came back with my breakfast, I couldn't find the **** thing (still haven't *grumble*). luckily, I got the new TV set up before I went to bed, and it has its own remote so I ate breakfast and laid down and watched some TV in the bunny pen. I'm a bit grumbly because there's no thing at the bottom of the TV when you change channels to tell you the channel and what the show is called that's on (like there is on the TV hooked to the DVR)... and the thing in the top corner that does say the channel says like "A3" and "D4-1" and stuff (apparently there are both analog and digital channels and the TV differentiates?). if you know the actual channel # you want, you can type it in and it works normally, but I usually don't watch live TV - just the DVR - so I don't remember channel numbers. I also have no **** clue where the TV guide channel is 'cause there's a program guide built into the remote for the TV that has the cable company's DVR hooked to it.

I need to call the cable company and find out if there's a way I can watch the DVR programs from either room of the house. before I got the new TV, the only way I could change channels was with the up/down buttons on the TV and only like 20 channels were available because of settings that were set ages ago and can't be changed now because the cable company remote doesn't work properly with the TV even though the old one from them did)... so, I just left the TV on MSNBC all the time 'cause election news was interesting and, while it isn't particularly thrilling TV to have the news on all the time, there's also nothing on the channel that I hate so it worked well as background noise . I eventually got sick of only watching the one channel, though, hence the shiny new TV.

anyway, the point of my rambling about the TV thing (it really is a rambling day, isn't it!) was originally going to be that I was lying there watching TV when all of a sudden I see a big, fat golden hamster slowly walking across the floor by the back door to the bunny pen! (on the breakfast nook side of it) thank GOD I was up and in the living room to see him! I could tell by the size it was Chester (the baby-daddy).

I went out the bunny pen on the side by my bedroom, went around through the kitchen and shut the laundry room door, just in case he decided to give chase - that way he wouldn't get in there and would be less likely to run towards the fridge. I slowly approached him... and he gave me this quizzical look and partially stood up on his back legs (not actually periscoping, but like halfway to it) and just waited for me to walk over and scoop him up 'cause he's a tame-as-hell sweetie like that.

it turns out he'd chewed through one of the two zipties that hold the mesh to the cage where the door opens (I only use two so I have to cut/replace less when I open the cage to get him out... guess I'll be using more than that now!) and squeezed his fat little bootie through the bars. he also chewed a couple other zipties off the cage, but they weren't critical to keeping it secure - I overdid it on all the zipties except the ones that need to be cut to get the door open. I guess I should get back to trying to figure out how I can keep the cage secure while still having the door work without having to cut zipties.

on a side note, my car is fubar right now ><

I went to the corner store on new year's day... then got back in my car to go to home depot and the check engine light came on ><. I figured "no big deal" 'cause I was planning to take it in for an oil change the next day anyway (until I slept through all of yesterday, lol). then I had to run to the grocery store that night...

when I opened the door to get in my car, I thought the battery was dead because the dome lights and door light didn't come on. to my relief, the car actually did start... but the electrical system's really f'ed up. the little lights above the door/window controls work, the main control panel that has the tach and speedometer and fuel gauge and stuff works, the lights on the seat heater buttons work, the moonroof works and the lights that show if the AC and/or defroster/rear defroster are on work... but the electric locks (and therefore the buttons on the key remote) don't work (was SO weird after all these years to have to lock/unlock the car with a key... and it really sucks that there's not a keyhole on the outside of the passenger's side door), the stereo system doesn't work, the lighted panel above it that displays the stereo info, time, temperature, etc. doesn't work (which made me grumpy 'cause I specifically wanted to know the temp so I could tell if I should bring the plants inside)... ugh. so now who knows what the hell is wrong with it, but I'll be taking it in today for a whole lot more than just an oil change.

oh! I figured out the thing about what you've typed going away if you navigate away from the page or whatever - if you're using the quick reply and you leave the page, whatever you were typing is lost... but if you're using the advanced reply, you can hit the back button to return to the page and your reply will still be there. the times I've screwed up like that, I was always using the advanced option which is why I was surprised that some of you were complaining about losing entire posts.

anyway, that's enough rambling for now, lol. my new plastic tile flooring came while I was sleeping, so it's time to work on deep-cleaning the bunny room!


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## whitelop

I'll have to start using the advanced reply button more often, lol. With this laptop though the back button is like further away than it was on the other one(?) if that makes sense. 
(I just had to turn off Human Centipede 2 and I think I might actually be sick. Sorry for the over share, but that is the most disturbing movie I've ever seen. I can handle a lot of gross and stuff, but I'm legit queasy. Do not watch that movie!) 

I can't believe your big hammy daddy got out! How funny, but scary is that! What a big sweetie to just let you scoop him up like that, thats so awesome. He's a little rascal though, to chew through the zip ties. hahaa. Awww I want a hammy! I'm so mad we're not closer to each other. 

I'm sorry about your car. That really sucks. I would be super pissed! 

I also find romaine hearts a little weird. I never brought them because Foo was picky sometimes and she only really wanted the leafy part of the leaf and would wait until everything else leafy was gone to eat the vain of the romaine. haha. But personally, I love romaine hearts. Thats my favorite part of the leaf. I only really like the vains of romaine, to me they make the best salads! lol


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## JBun

That was a pretty lucky moment to catch sight of your hammy. I'm glad you didn't have to search the whole house for him, lol. That would have been a pain in the butt! If you need something more secure than plastic zip ties for the parts that are more permanent and you don't need to be cutting zip ties off, you could try the metal rings they use on wire rabbit cages, that hold together the wire panels of the cage. You can usually pick something like that up at a feed store and a special tool to clamp them, or you can use pliers.

Your car problem may just be a blown fuse. Hopefully that's all it is as they are easy to replace. 

Thanks for figuring out the whole back button and losing what is typed. I had been thinking about that and what the problem was. I guess I better use the advanced reply if I plan on typing anything more than a short reply, which of course I'm using the quick reply right now  Force of habit.


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## Imbrium

my first thought with the electric stuff was a fuse, but it seems like it would have to be two at much for how much is out (door locks + center of the console probably aren't on the same fuse)... and I wouldn't think fuses would cause the check engine light to come on (don't actually remember if both problems started at the same time, as it was daylight and I might've had the radio off anyway... though I want to say I would've noticed the bar with the time and temp and stuff being dark even with it being light out, so I'm inclined to say they happened one after the other).

whatever the problem is, I hope it's nothing too complicated, as it would probably be difficult to find someone willing to work on it if it was (given that a lot of people aren't experienced with rotary engines)... that, or I'd have to go to a Mazda dealership and you know how pricey that can be!

and nah, I wouldn't have had to search the whole house for him - if I couldn't find him near the cages, I would've just set traps. hamsters are *absurdly* easy to trap due to their pouches and their lack of depth-perception. you just take a little wastebasket with smooth plastic sides, put some smell-good food and a bit of soft bedding in the bottom, use whatever household objects are handy to build "steps" up to the trashcan and then put a little trail of smell-good foods leading up the steps. when they come out to forage at night, they'll climb the steps, stuffing things in their cheek pouches, and when they get to the top they smell that there's more food in the bin and plop right down into it .


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## whitelop

lmao! I'm glad I now know how to set a hammy trap! Hell, it could come in handy later in life, thanks Jennifer!


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## Imbrium

now if you just had a hamster to use that knowledge with... hehe. though to be fair, bin cages are all the rage these days and I've never had a hamster escape from one (and not for lack of trying). Chester was in the rabbit cage, which is why he was able to escape.


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## ldoerr

That is crazy what all happened in 1 day. Glad that you found the hamster


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## Imbrium

well, the car didn't get taken in today - I got distracted arguing with the new floors.

I couldn't figure out how to get them to snap together (even when standing on top of them)... then it clicked that the problem was the layers of carpet underneath. I started putting loose tiles under the tiles I was snapping together and then standing on them and it worked like a charm.

I've got the floor mostly done... had to take apart sections of the playpen to get the new flooring under them easily, so the girls got locked out of the pen for a while. rather than putting them in the condo, I let them enjoy the newly cleaned and bunny-proofed kitchen and breakfast nook (there's a sliding door I used to keep them out of the dining room and I folded back the NIC grids I attached to the walls for when Q-tip comes to stop Nala from running between the outside of the pen and the built-in entertainment center like she loves to do). they were good little girls and didn't try to nom my foam flooring, though Nala did climb on top of the biggest bin cage (which has chester's rabbit cage and then misty's bin cage on top of it) and go between the top of it/chester's cage and the walls and run around back there, lol.

tomorrow's the bitchy part - I may have to move the condo to get the last of the flooring in ><

I'm kind of on the fence about the new bunny floor. it *really* shows the dirt - way worse than the tarp. with the tarp, poops stood out but hay kinda blended in... now stray poops blend in but hay sticks out like a sore thumb... and there's more hay than poops. it matches the coroplast almost exactly, though, which I love! it's also a little rough on bare feet, especially compared to squishy carpet and foam tiles, but I suppose I'll get used to it. would've loved to use foam instead, but I'm sure they'd eat that right up. aside from really showing dirt, it does look better than the tarp - looks more "finished" and the tarp always had a ton of wrinkles that irked my OCD. it'll also be easier to clean since I can just vacuum it with the shop vac... after I fix it up with some electrical tape, that is *glare*. I discovered today that the previous time I had it in the pen, someone nommed a tiny hole in the hose when mommy wasn't looking!


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## whitelop

Well, at least the flooring isn't slick so the girls won't be sliding around. They'll get used to it and you'll get used to it. 
I'm sure it does look better than a tarp, I get that it looks more finished than the tarp did. You can probably sweep the new tiles. 

I bet the girls had fun in the kitchen. New territory to explore!


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## ldoerr

My girls have taken a bit out of my shop vac as well, but it is still usable without needing repairs. My cell phone charger is another story. They just about ate the cord in half so I have to toss it. I have been using my moms charger (which fits my phone and about 8 other things as well) when I am at her house. My only back up chargers are a car charger that does not work well and a usb cabble that plugs into my computer. The problem with the usb one is that my computer has to be on for it to charge my phone and my phone goes almost dead right before bed ssd: :headsmack


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## Chrisdoc

You have been a busy bee Jennifer, don't know where you get the energy to do all this...I did laugh about the hammie getting, that would have been fun looking for him if he hadn't waited for you to catch him.

Good to see you've got most of the tiles down and I am sure you will get used to them and they have to be better than the tarp so that's a plus straight away. The girls will enjoy them as well.

Yes, biting holes in things. that's something I can totally relate to, don't think I've got anything left that hasn't had a hole bitten into it. Yesterday, it was one of my favourite fleeces...of course, my fault, I should have know to take it off before letting any of them near me but never mind, I'm already over it. 

Only two more nights to go so I'm feeling more positive and can't wait to get home full time with the boys and see if I can get them back to normal.

Hope you get your car fixed soon. I need to take mine in as the steering is making really strange noises and it's been bugging me but haven't been able to take it in as I've needed it to get back and forth from mine to my friend's house so will probably take it in Tuesday as it's a holiday here Monday.


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## Imbrium

so I finally got the car taken in, but I put it off until the end of the day and they were too busy to do anything (even diagnose or change the oil today) . the guy wants me to bring it in early in the morning, and I don't see that happening because of where my sleeping schedule is at right now... so it'll probably be monday morning. he said it might be the alternator... ugh. why does everything break at once?? on the plus side, I was going to the place 'cause of their coupon for a $16.99 oil change... and there was also another coupon on the flier for 10% off any repair or routine maintenance thing (up to $150 off maximum) and the guy said I can use them both, one for the oil change and one for whatever the hell else is wrong with the car.

also, my phone won't charge... at first, it was just bitchy and if I wriggled the end of the charger cord (right by the phone's butt) around enough, it'd start charging... but now it won't work at all. (yes, I did just refer to my phone as having a butt.)

luckily, I was able to a) confirm it was just the charger, not the phone and b) charge it. I assume based on what else doesn't work that the outlet dealy for the cigarette lighter in my car's ashtray doesn't work, so I didn't bother trying it... but there's a central hump in my car with drink holders and storage compartments and such and it has a second of the same kind of outlet. I keep my car charger plugged into that one since it's in a storage tray and I can just put the lid down when I'm not using it. I plugged my phone into that and it charged right up while I was driving to the car place and back.

I can't shake the feeling that every time I try to get my act together, life feels the need to conspire against me. it's always when I'm being productive and making progress and feeling rather proud of myself that a bunch of stuff breaks or goes wrong all at once. for example, that light bulb in the PITA fixture (that I still haven't replaced) going out, the garbage disposal, multiple car issues and computer issues (ie why there's been no pics for ages now) all hitting me at once because I started cleaning the crap out of the house, bought new flooring, found a new home for the piano, *finally* bought a TV that's not 17 years old and ordered a dishwasher. I thought I was supposed to get *rewarded* for doing a good job, not punished!


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## Imbrium

so walmart didn't have a charger for my cell phone - WTF!! they had a car kind that was the right fit, but no wall charger. everything was smartphone this and USB that 'cause apparently the people who make chargers decided to give the finger to anyone using a phone from six years ago on account of it still works just fine. after a lot of searching, I did finally solve my charger issue, though - I found something that's a converter for a car charger for $10. basically, it lets you plug the car charger into a wall outlet. I never use the charger in the car unless something's wrong with the wall charger anyway, so I just brought the old car charger inside.


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## Chrisdoc

You're definitely having a bit of a downer at the moment but that always happens that when some things are going hunky dory....wham, other things start to go wrong. Hopefully, your car issues will be solved next week and yes, the phone charger is a pain. I have a USB one for mine as well as the wall charger but cos the computer always goes into eco to save power if I plug it into the computer, it never charges the phone and the batteries don't last anything now with all these apps, I charge mine all the time and it only lasts a couple of hours...that does drive me mad. Why don't they make a battery with a bit of longer life now that it drains so much quicker.


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## Imbrium

mine doesn't drain quicker . I charge my phone every 3 days maybe. one of the perks of having a 6 year old POS phone that came free with my cell phone plan, lol.


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## Chrisdoc

Yeah, the old ones definitely lasted longer...it´s all these bloody apps and email and internet and whatsapp, the list is endless...they just drain the battery in record time...I seem to spend half my life charging to so that I now carry the charger in my handbag.


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## Imbrium

wow, that's bad. I hope my phone lives a while longer!! the new car charger converter is working perfectly.

so, I'm excited about toilet paper. how sad is that? there was something wrong with the last package I bought - the cardboard rolls had thick stripes of glue on them once all the toilet paper was gone. I had to go through like 12 double-rolls that were ALL defective like that. I wanted to call the Angel Soft jerks and bitch them out and be like "some of us have hamsters who like to chew on the empty rolls and play with them and they can't have them if there's a buttload of glue on there when there's supposed to be none!"... but I didn't, because I'm lazy and they would've thought I was insane.

seriously, though, 11-14 hamsters to keep supplied with chews and toys and only one of me to go through all those defective rolls of toilet paper... I thought it would never end! I got to the end of the first roll of a new package today, and it's glue free! yay!! dunno what was up at the factory when that last package of rolls was produced, but I really hope it doesn't happen again.


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## whitelop

I use Angel Soft too and I've gotten packages that had rolls with glue all over them too! It is annoying. The worst is when the last little bits of toilet paper won't come off the freaking rolls. 
Its amazing what bothers us about toilet paper. We should normally be happy at the way it works, but instead we are unhappy with the ROLL it comes on. lmao, I think we're all insane. 
But the next time I get a pack with big glue stripes I will call and tell them that our hammies and bunnies like to chew toilet paper rolls and they can't with all the gross glue on them! And the paper needs to come off the roll better. Bastards.


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## Imbrium

hah, awesome! I love how you actually call people up and bitch about stuff when I only think about doing it... I get to be lazy and the bitching still happens


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## Chrisdoc

It is so funny when you have animals how you start at things differently. I was at a building site today and there was loads of wood lying about, probably Ok for the buns to chew on but it had cement and other unidentified stuff on it so didn't take any but the guys I went up there with (we were looking at doing a quote for finishing he build) were looking at me a bit strange. Good news is my building friend has some spare pieces of piping so I'll pick that up the next time...yeahhhhh can't wait.


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## Imbrium

I've gotten some weird looks in Home Depot and other places when I was looking for something that I didn't know the name of/the exact product and had to settle for explaining what I wanted something to do, lol. like when I was trying to find something at Hobby Lobby that could function as foraging cups on sugar glider toys in lieu of little acrylic shot-glasses, so I needed little bitty plastic containers that I could put holes in with a dremel. ofc, the store employee was worthless in the end, but I managed to find something on my own that would suffice (cheaper version of paint cups like I used in place of film canisters when I was making that jump for the agility course).


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## Imbrium

good news! the electrical problems WERE fuse-related... and the check engine light was on because of the battery (apparently the voltage was low). he told me I'd need a new battery and gave me a price quote of $140 so I passed, saying I felt it would be cheaper to buy a battery and put it in myself. he made a point of telling me to clean the terminals really well when I changed the battery. well, when I got in the car, the check engine light had gone off! my guess is the battery isn't actually bad, it just had a loose connector or something. I'll still clean the terminals, but as long as the light stays off and I don't see any other signs of a dying battery, I'm just gonna leave the current one in - it should have another year or so of life in it, iirc.

as for the fuse... half an hour or so (much of which was spent showing off the gliders to other customers, lol) and $20.52 later, my car had new fuses and an oil change. the oil change was $17 + tax, so they only charged me a couple bucks to put in the dirt-cheap fuse. I'm very happy. I'm gonna recommend them to my neighbors for oil changes, as they come out with those coupons regularly and you can also print them online.

I'm really glad that, after I stopped at the cable company to pick up a DVR for the living room TV, I called the car place to find out if they'd be able to fit me in today even though it was like an hour and a half before they closed (I showed up an hour before close last night and they were too busy) - otherwise I would've spent the rest of the weekend worrying about what it was gonna cost me and whether or not it was ok to drive the car short distances in the meantime, plus I would've had to haul my butt over there first thing monday morning. yay for getting three issues fixed for $20!


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## whitelop

Thats really awesome that you car was that cheap to fix! Gah, if all of our problems could be fixed for just that little, the world would be a better place, lol. 
I'm glad it was just the fuses, those are so easy to fix.


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## ldoerr

Glad that the issues got fixed and it looks like things are starting to turn around


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## JBun

Haha, it WAS just a fuse! Isn't it great when a car problem turns out to be something simple  And they didn't even charge you very much. Perfect!


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## Chrisdoc

great news Jennifer that it didn't cost you too much. I had a problem with my battery a couple of months ago as my car had kept dying but the battery wasn't that old. When I took it in to the place I bought it (course, couldn't find the receipt) he did charge the battery up for me but told me that it was actually too little voltage for the engine size I had so I ended up having to buy a new one anyway but I've got the old one for anyone with a smaller car not that my car is a gas guzzler or anything. He acted as though it was my fault for buying too small a battery and I gave him a real about the fact that this is what they recommended to me here...cheek of it, on top of everything else, blaming me.


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## holtzchick

Imbrium said:


> I've gotten some weird looks in Home Depot and other places when I was looking for something that I didn't know the name of/the exact product and had to settle for explaining what I wanted something to do, lol. like when I was trying to find something at Hobby Lobby that could function as foraging cups on sugar glider toys in lieu of little acrylic shot-glasses, so I needed little bitty plastic containers that I could put holes in with a dremel. ofc, the store employee was worthless in the end, but I managed to find something on my own that would suffice (cheaper version of paint cups like I used in place of film canisters when I was making that jump for the agility course).




LOL... awh that reminds me of myself when I had ferrets and would make toys for them! I would spend hours at home depot because the employees would never help me so I would just walk around the whole darn store aisle by aisle trying to figure out what else I could use. I gotta say it gets the creative part of the brain working!


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## Imbrium

wow, really? the employees at my home depot are always looking to help and probably 75% or more of the time they can figure out WTF I'm babbling about. I had a guy spend like 20-25 minutes helping me gather stuff for the agility course and cutting wood and chain for me and such... they didn't get cranky or even drop subtle hints when I was in there rooting around for stuff until 15 mins after they had closed.


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## whitelop

Thats really awesome that they help you like that! At the lowes near me, they're jerks and dumb. We had to have some glass cut to put into your antique french doors, they're odd measurements and it took the guy a freaking diagram to explain the measurements because he wasn't understanding, we only told him like 10 times what it was. 
I think I told you the other story of when they closed like 7 minutes early and locked the doors. I think its about a thousand pages back, lol. 
I wouldn't know what to do if they were actually helpful. Like, they will avoid eye contact to NOT have to help you. Does that even make any sense? Jerks! Another reason I hate people.


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## Imbrium

man, that's BAD. if you're wandering and looking a little lost, it's not uncommon for one of the employees at my home depot to actually come up to you and ask if you need help finding anything - the complete opposite of your Lowe's!

I hate when **** closes early. don't say you're open until a certain time if you're not actually gonna stay open that long! I used to work at Domino's and I was a closer a LOT of times, both when I was a delivery driver and when I was a general manager. it sucked when someone called in a delivery order 2 mins to close, but damned if we didn't always pick up the phone and get them their pizza because we actually know how to read a **** clock... and last-minute customers at a pizza place is worse than anywhere else, because carry-out stops at 10 pm so it HAS to be delivery, which means the driver spends like 30-60 minutes driving around instead of closing up the store. worthless lazy-a** employees who close up early just to avoid having to DO something piss me off! if I have money and I show up during "business hours" to buy something, I expect to get in the door! they're supposed to WANT my business.

speaking of stuff closing early, home depot pissed me off again last night 'cause I was just getting ready to go at like 8:15 and all of a sudden I remembered it was freaking sunday and they close at 6 on sundays. I HATE that stuff closes early on sunday! WTF. you're already working on the sabbath, it's not any worse to work normal hours instead of shorter ones and it's mean to atheists to not let them buy stuff to make a travel cage for sugar gliders at 8 pm just because it's freaking sunday.

oh, I'm sure you guys will find this more hilarious than I did...
so yesterday, I was going to sleep in the tent (which was set up on my bed) with the sugar gliders... I was right at that point where you're *almost* sound asleep, but not quite... drifting in and out of consciousness, so it's a mix of sleep and brief lucid moments...

unbeknownst to me, Hurricane was on the mesh ceiling directly above my face...

then out of nowhere, she freaking PEES! and of course, thanks to gravity, it lands right on the side of my face. thankfully, I know all too well how gliders tend to use you as their own personal toilet, so I've always got a handful of kleenex within arm's reach. seriously, though - ugh! of ALL the places, high and low, in this big two-person tent, she picks the ONE spot directly above my face to stop and pee?? I guess she didn't want me falling asleep yet >.>


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## holtzchick

That's brutal!!! I love that state of almost sleeping so it really does suck when something wakes you up so suddenly! Do gliders eventually learn to go to the washroom in a certain area or do you just have to get used to it.

I just love reading your rants to be quite honest because you very much share the same opinions with me. I absolutely hate lazy people, and dirty ones too. If I had to, I would work 14 hrs a day with only one day off a week!


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## whitelop

hahaha! I'm going to be honest and say that I did giggle a little at your pee-pee misfortune. I would have probably thrown up. Maybe not, but I'm weird about things touching my face. lol 

I don't understand why things close early on Sunday. Unfortunately, I live in the middle of the bible belt, which you may too and its stupid. Like, Jesus probably won't mind if you open Chik-fil-a on Sundays. Its just a day! 
Speaking of things closing early. The other night, my husband was in a mega-game mode. He just got Dead Island and he was 'starving'(even though we ate dinner like 2 hours before) and he HAD TO HAVE a pizza. So he woke me up off the couch at like 11pm to go to Domino's and get him a $5 ready now pizza. It took me a few minutes to wake up enough to drive and took me forever to find my slippers. So I left the house at like 11:35 and knew I would be pushing it to get there before they closed at midnight, I also knew that I would be getting the last, few hour old 'ready now' pizza. I got to the stop light to make a left to drive to the shopping center the Domino's is in, I saw the lights on and it said OPEN. It was 11:53 when I turned into the shopping center, I drove passed it to park and IT WAS COMPLETELY DARK AT 11:53pm, when the sign says clearly they close at 12am. In the time it took me to sit at a light for 30 seconds, drive an 1/10 of a mile down the road, take 1 right and then drive 500 feet, they closed. It took a solid minute from the time I saw the lights on until I got to the store front. They closed in that amount of time. 7 freaking minutes early. 
I was forced to go to the Wendy's that I'm boycotting for always ruining my husbands food. Thankfully that night, they got the order right and the food was actually pretty **** good. I'm taking them off my boycott list...for now. 
Yep, I just went on a total rampage about pizza. Wow, my life sucks.


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## Imbrium

holtzchick said:


> Do gliders eventually learn to go to the washroom in a certain area or do you just have to get used to it.



nope. owning gliders = 15 years of being used as their personal toilet.



whitelop said:


> I don't understand why things close early on Sunday. Unfortunately, I live in the middle of the bible belt, which you may too and its stupid. Like, Jesus probably won't mind if you open Chik-fil-a on Sundays. Its just a day!



yeah, total bible-belt territory here, too. texas is a bad place to be an atheist and a democrat... and to top it off, it's hot as f*ck 9-10 months out of the year.



whitelop said:


> I got to the stop light to make a left to drive to the shopping center the Domino's is in, I saw the lights on and it said OPEN. It was 11:53 when I turned into the shopping center, I drove passed it to park and IT WAS COMPLETELY DARK AT 11:53pm, when the sign says clearly they close at 12am. In the time it took me to sit at a light for 30 seconds, drive an 1/10 of a mile down the road, take 1 right and then drive 500 feet, they closed. It took a solid minute from the time I saw the lights on until I got to the store front. They closed in that amount of time. 7 freaking minutes early.



what do you wanna bet those asshats saw you coming and were like "quick, turn off the lights!!" bastards. there are plenty of unemployed people in this country who would GLADLY take that job off your hands if you're too **** lazy to get off your butt and do it properly. if you're gonna have a job, suck it up and do it the right way. it's not that hard. if I can run an entire domino's at age 20 with half the training I should've had, working 70-80h weeks for 24k a year (yeah, they treat their managers like ****, I made more money as a driver - that's what I get for letting people find out I'm competent ><), the people at your dominos can get off their asses and make a pizza 7 mins before close.

holy crap, I can get "ass" past the filter now? hot ****! I think sh*t and f*ck might be the only swears we can't use now  (I still don't get why sh*t is somehow so much worse than all the words they let us use, lol)


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## whitelop

I think you get asshat because you made it into its own word and out smarted the filter. lol if you just said ass, then maybe it would filter but asshat throws it off a little maybe.
Just kidding, you can say ass. I wonder if its because thats what you call a donkey? Like its a biblical term, so ass isn't really a bad word? 
I hate that my in-laws call donkey's jackasses. That makes me nuts, just call it a freaking donkey, thats what it is! I'm having like serious "memory/word association" today.


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## Imbrium

I dunno, but I know for sure we couldn't say ass with the old forum software. go figure.


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## whitelop

I like the filter on the old forum better, I like that it made bad words into funny words. Theres nothing like reading a really serious, offensive sentence and it ends with "fluffybunnybottom", thats a hell of a tension breaker. LOL.


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## Chrisdoc

It´s so good to have a good laugh at all the things you guys rant about. You´d really have something to rant about over here as we don´t even open on Sundays, all the shops are closed, they were opening over Christmas and the New Year but that´s stopped now. And talk about closing early or bad service, that´s quite common. Over here, people come to work in the morning at 8.30am, say at the bank and at 9am, they leave to go to the cafe round the corner for their breakfast so if you go looking for someone, you have to wait half and hour until they turn up again. Well, what the hell is the matter with having breakfast before you leave the house. But that´s common practice in most places over here. They are, however good at not closing before time although I was in the phone place a couple of weeks ago and as he had to leave at 2pm and there were a few people in there, he locked the door at 1.15pm so no one else could come in, how bad is that....yes, a lot of the smaller shops in the town centres close at lunchtime here between 2pm and 4.30 pm. 

Couldn´t stop laughing at the glider peeing on your face....I´d have gone mad but I suppose if you´re used to it then it´s not quite so bad.


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## Imbrium

I'm certainly not used to it on my face, lol... but I was SO tired at that point, I couldn't be bothered to be that upset about it - I just cleaned myself up with kleenex, went to sleep and showered in the morning. luckily, glider pee isn't like bunny pee - it's odorless and a pale/nearly clear yellow, so it kinda seems more like water than pee. makes it easier to be more forgiving about it.


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## Chrisdoc

Yeah, see what you mean. Houdini once sprayed me right across my face and the whole of the top of my body and I was sitting on the sofa at the time with him sitting on the other sofa. He used to have such great aim. I was not very happy with him to say the least, the little sod. I must say I don´t miss that now.


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## Imbrium

god, am I glad I got girl bunnies! I'm SO thankful I never had to experience 6'+ sprays of pee!


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## Chrisdoc

You are so lucky, he was the only sprayer but it used to be up the walls, up the windows, up the furniture and all over me and the other buns. Am I glad I had him neutered, it all stopped after that so anyone who has a super sprayer, would recommend it anytime. Girls are so much cleaner in the bunny and human world lmao.


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## ldoerr

That is the reason why my mom made me get girl bunnies. They are cleaner than the bucks. I have been sprayed in the MOUTH by boy bunnies on more than 1 occasion. I have also been peed on more times than I can count by baby bunnies. They go through a stage where wheneve you hold one, they pee. They also look IDENTICAL to newborn dog puppies for a period of 1/2-1 day. Baby rabbits go through SOOO many different stages it is crazy. It is like they change every time you see them. Sorry to get off topic 

I do have to admit that I laughed when I read your post about the glider peeing on your face, sorry 

I got the hay that you sent. I just gave Beauty a little handfull of the orchard alfalfa mix and she has not noticed it (even though she has run through it). I think that she was to intent on getting out of the cage for some run time to notice it. We will see in the morning if she likes it. I will give her the oat tomorrow or wednesday. The oat looks like something that she will really like. The only hay that she is eating currently is the binky bunny oat hay. That hay that you sent me looks identical to it. THANK YOU


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## Katielovesleo3

Lol creepy dead bugs. ^_^ that's what men are for. Brothers dads uncles cousins husbands fiances....all of them. They get to do my buggy work lol


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## Chrisdoc

If only all the bugs were dead...that´s the problem with living on your own, you have to get used to getting rid of bugs yourself. I remember years ago one hot summer, I had a cockroach infestation in the kitchen. I remember wearing wellington boots, rubber gloves and spraying under the sink and them all facing and running about and me trying to bash them all....OMG it was like some scene from a horror movie yuuuukkk. I´ve also had rats, snakes, I ´m a real crocodile dundee one woman bug killing service lmao.


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## Imbrium

oh my god!!! if I had an actual infestation of roaches, I'd run out of the house screaming, make the neighbor go back in to fetch the animals, and never go back!!


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## Chrisdoc

Yeah, wish I could have done but had to get it over and done with. The grossest thing is when there are so many, you can actually hear them, that is a bit like a creepy movie and I didn´t want to open the cupboard under the sink to look but I did and then wished I hadn´t. Got rid of all of them but that house was creepy anyway, really old and next to an abandoned house that´s why I had all the uninvited guest. You never seen a roach running from the kitchen to the front door right across the living room....yeah....didn´t have a lot of visitors at that time of my life :wink


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## agnesthelion

Hope the gliders and buns and hammies are doing good!


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## whitelop

Since we were talking about the crawfish boil on Chris' blog. I wanted to say that it takes red potatoes about 20 minutes to cook until tender. I don't know if you cut them into 1/4's or if you leave the whole, but whole would take a few minutes longer to cook. Corn takes about 8-10 minutes to cook. And however long the crawfish take to cook. 
Now I REALLY want crawfish. BAD.


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## Chrisdoc

Yipes, everywhere I go today, there´s talk of food...think I might go and raid the fridge :wink


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## Katielovesleo3

Crawfish mmmmm. I like to wait until march they're so big then, but man, I might need some earlier this year. Getting so hungry.


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## Hyatt101

How are the hammies, gliders, and bunnies?


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## Chrisdoc

Yeah, how are they all, we haven´t had an update for a while


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## HolyHandGrenade

:sosad Monty misses you!


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## ldoerr

We NEED an update with PICTURES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We miss you.


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## Imbrium

so, yeah... I kinda fell off the face of the earth there for a couple months. it's a really long story. the start of it is that Trouble passed away and I was really upset about it, plus I started spending pretty much all my spare time with Hurricane so she wouldn't get lonely. a hell of a lot has happened since early January... I'll get into it at some point. I need to go back and get caught up on everything I've missed, because I'm OCD like that, but it'll have to wait because I'm tired as hell right now.


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## Chrisdoc

Jennifer, so sorry about Trouble, I know how much you loved those gliders...hope Hurrricane is doing OK now. It´s tough sometimes but hope Nala and Gazzie are fine, I´ve missed seeing them all. Take all the time you need, we´ll be here waiting and take care of yourself first, all your little ones need you.


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## whitelop

Jennifer its so good to hear from you! 

I am so sorry to hear about Trouble. :rainbow:

I hope everyone else is doing well.


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## agnesthelion

Oh no that is too,bad about Trouble it's hard to lose any pet 

Welcome back and glad to hear from you again!


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## Imbrium

failing at sleep, still too tired to go through the whole long story of what's happened, but anyway, here's some highlights.

here's a kick-ass picture of hurricane where you can see her adorable little teef (man, I forgot how huge pics turn out here!):







and meet Lemmy (a leucistic glider):






and Tabitha (a white-faced blonde glider that possibly carries the recessive gene for platinum coloring):






Lemmy and Tabitha are my new breeding pair. Hurricane does NOT like Tabitha... crossing my fingers she likes the first joey (baby) that my breeding pair produces, though, because I need her to have a friend again.

Lemmy is a very vocal (ie crabby) little boy, he's very stinky 'cause he just hit sexual maturity, and like you'd expect from a teenage boy, he likes to wave his little manhood around all the time like he's proud of it. he's about 7 1/2 months old.

Tabitha is much shier than Hurricane, but to my amazement, has the same sweet and perfect temperament - something I didn't dare to hope I'd find a second time. she's about 6 1/2 months old... hopefully won't be too much longer before she's old enough to get knocked up. she and Lemmy have already been introduced, became instant friends, and moved in together.

also, here's a pic of the little albino het (ie she carries one copy of the recessive gene for albino) girl who stayed with me for a couple weeks. I didn't name her because it would've made it harder to give her back. she was very skittish, but a sweetie.






basically, when I got Lemmy (which involved a 3h (one-way) drive to Houston), I got him what I thought would be his girlfriend (the breeder helped me pick her out)... only to get home, look up her lineage/COI (coefficient of inbreeding), do a double-take and realize that there was NO WAY that she should be bred outside the albino line... so two weeks later, I had to drive her back to Houston. pity I was still figuring out what I wanted and didn't have an epiphany until nearly a month later, so even though I got Tabitha from the same breeder, she required a third trip to Houston.

in addition to breeding, I'm also going to be selling toy parts/toys/accessories and such for sugar gliders and have been spending an insane amount of time designing a website (which I've totally learned how to do since January). I've named the store section of the site "Trouble's Treasures" after the bitchy little girl I miss SO much. even though it's a sugar glider site, Nala and Gaz have their own "For da bunnies!" page in my store because it just didn't feel right not having any bunny stuff.

edit: oh yeah, about Tabitha's possible platinum het... platinum and leucistic are recessive genes, so normally you need to have two copies of one of them to get that color. BUT... they can interact to where if a glider has one platinum and one leucistic gene, that somehow makes a platinum glider. since Lemmy HAS to pass on a leu gene, that means if Tabby turns out to be plat het, I can get platinum babies


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## Imbrium

oh, and blanket apology - I'm going to be randomly necroing threads as I get caught up


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## whitelop

The glider breeding sounds interesting. So what color are you going for? The platinum color? Is that a coveted color? 
How many joey's do they have at a time? Its all so interesting and they're all so cute! I love little Tabitha, she's a cutie. 

How are the buns doing? You know we need a photo update of them right?! Just whenever you're ready!


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## agnesthelion

Omg I love the picture where you can see the little teeth!

I remember liking the platinum color when i was researching gliders but I knew I'd never spend that money for a pet. How cool you may get a platinum. I also feel like I remember liking the champagne color?? I don't really remember what it looked like though........? Lol

How are Nala and Gaz? Wed love to see pics of them too! Are they getting along okay?


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## Imbrium

whitelop said:


> The glider breeding sounds interesting. So what color are you going for? The platinum color? Is that a coveted color?
> How many joey's do they have at a time? Its all so interesting and they're all so cute! I love little Tabitha, she's a cutie.
> 
> How are the buns doing? You know we need a photo update of them right?! Just whenever you're ready!



I'm actually not going for color right now (other than WFB (white faced blonde) being a 50/50 chance since it's a dominant trait), unless I win the platinum lottery. glider genetics are FUBAR from a godawful mess of inbreeding that happened like 10-15 years ago when people were first trying to figure out how the color genes worked (each colored line can be traced back to a mere 1-4 gliders or glider pairs that first exhibited or produced that coloring!) and a lot more out-breeding needs to happen to straighten everything out... so I'm taking the "less profitable but better for the species" route and out-breeding for 100% leu hets (ie carriers for the leucistic gene) by introducing Tabitha's genetics into a leucistic line.

later on, I'll take 1-2 of her and Lemmy's offspring (twin girls, hopefully) and pair them with a leucistic as unrelated to Lemmy as possible - then I'll have a 50% chance of actual leucistic gliders and a 50% chance of carriers from the second pairing.

the bunns are doing well, no fights for a long time now (*knock on wood*!)... ripping the heck out of cardboard boxes night and day... still devouring those stupid snack logs that keep them from eating their coroplast... hehe.

so I went to upload the one photo out of a huge bunch that didn't upload before my computer crashed the last time I was uploading bunny stuff... and the **** thing crashed again! FFS. worthless computer!

anyway, it's finally done - http://s1183.beta.photobucket.com/user/mareimbri1/library/bunnies

the first three pics look... odd. explanation: Gazzles is climbing/lying on top of Nala to steal Nala's craisins, which were going ignored . Nala decided to just sit there and take it. too cute!

Lisa - if you decide some day that you actually want to get gliders, let me know. I can't guarantee I can get you a platinum, since Tabby might not even be a carrier (and even if she is, you'd probably only get one platinum out of me - the other glider would be most likely standard gray or WFB... or maybe leu depending on how far down the road it was before you wanted them) and it would be a minimum of a year or two before it was even an option because gliders breed pretty slowly and I've got homes waiting for at least 4-5 babies, possibly six (granted, three of them are with me - a friend for Hurricane and gliders for my second breeding pair)... but I could all kinds of hook you up. (ie a plat and a second glider, including airline shipping, for around what two standard ("pet only") grays with local pick-up from another breeder would go for.)


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## Imbrium

oh, and here's another pic of Hurricane with a mealie... it came out amazingly well considering how crappy my camera is and how much it hates close-up shots of tiny things!


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## Imbrium

my website is still totally under construction... it's missing pics/descriptions for a few toys that I'm still working on, plus a LOT of stuff doesn't have an "add to cart" button yet because the items haven't come in yet... but I went ahead and published it (at least for now) so you guys can take a sneak-peek if you want. here's the bunny page: http://www.hurricanesleucisticfriends.com/for-da-bunnies.html


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## whitelop

Are those live meal worms or dried? I've been thinking about getting some for my new chicks, hoping to bribe them to come to me with treats! haha. 

How are Nala and Gaz doing with the Sherwood? I went through a 12 lb bag and I don't like it. Ellie was eating well over a cup a day in food and she still wasn't gaining weight. So I switched her to the food from walmart, its not terrible for her it just has molasses in it. She loves it. 

The gliders came from another country right? So what, they brought a couple pairs here and line bred them until they were all messed up? Did they line breed them for too long? Well, they say that whatever issue/flaw the parent has is amplified in the offspring, so if both the parents have some sort of flaw then its doubly amplified in the offspring. Is that kind of what happened? 
Its cool you're trying to make them genetically better.


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## Imbrium

live mealies - gliders tend to not like the dried kind. I buy vita-mealies and LOVE them, would never go with anything else now - http://vita-mealie.weebly.com/our-outrageous-cubby-memorial-sale-page.html ... the small packages of mealies are kind of a rip-off in my opinion - if you want just a small amount to try before committing to a larger quantity, I could mail you some of mine (I bought a 3,000 pack on sale for the gliders and hammies to share).

my girls still devour the sherwood and I'm quite happy with it.

the main thing with the gliders is that the *colors* were only caught in very, very small numbers (after all, a white glider won't survive long in the wild) or arose as a very rare mutation. it, uh, wasn't really "line breeding". from what bit of it I can see, it's some line breeding/some pretty direct inbreeding... and that's just what's visible in modern pedigrees. the worst of the inbreeding - by FAR - happened on the watch of Helen Moreno, a very large-scale breeder back in the day. there wasn't a lot of pressure to keep records to begin with and, while she supposedly kept records anyway, they were "eaten by prairie dogs" (or so the story goes). eventually, she retired and most of her gliders ended up with Priscilla Price of The Pet Glider (which is actually where I got Lemmy and Tabitha from). Priscilla started what is now a MASSIVE database of sugar glider pedigrees/lineages so that there are now records of a lot of the intentional breeding that happens these days.

anyone not interested in the gritty details of glider genetics/breeding can stop reading now .

if you're actually interested in a better idea of WTF is going on with glider genetics, looking at a couple pedigrees really helps it all make more sense.

I *think* this is a complete list of the starting gliders/pairs for each line...

Mosaic Line:
Mother White (appears in a LOT of leu pedigrees because a leucistic line was out-bred to her grandson)
Mac & Cheese (also a leu starting point)
Tilly (Sterile Line) (sterility is ONLY expressed by males but is passed through the females, which was a godawful mess and renders the sterile mosaic line something most breeders want nothing to do with even though the sterility has been bred out and the males of the line are now fertile - people are afraid it could pop back up)
~ I would've loved to work with mosaics, but for the reasons in parentheses, it just wasn't an option for out-breeding a leucistic line to improve the genetics - all three lines are "tainted" for one reason or another.

Leucistic Line:
Mac & Cheese
Sammie & Sesamie
Ethan (Gabrial & Fisban)

Platinum Line:
Haley
Silverbelle

Albino Line:
Mo & Disco
~ only one starting point is why the albino lines are totally f*cked, way worse than the others. ALL albino gliders in the US trace back to a single pair.

White Face Line:
Cereal (the same leu line that was out-bred to the Mother White line was also out-bred to Cereal, but I was still able to find a girl where that was the ONLY common ancestor and Cereal most recently appeared far enough back in both their pedigrees for a kinship chart to classify them as unrelated)
Ole Yeller (Old Yeller)
Pele

Cremeino Line:
Mars & Hera
Bolillo & Reba

here's Lemmy's pedigree: http://www.thepetglider.com/pedigree/modules/animal/pedigree.php?pedid=23491
different view of it, also has a link to the pedigree for his future offspring with Tabitha: http://www.thepetglider.com/pedigree/modules/animal/dog.php?id=23491

here's a pedigree for a random glider out of an albino line - 8.3% COI (which is scary-bad in any other colored line but unfortunately pretty common in albino lines) - http://www.thepetglider.com/pedigree/modules/animal/pedigree.php?pedid=21350

here's the kinship chart: http://www.petsugargliders.com/sgkin.php - it needs to be used alongside pedigrees and COIs to determine if two gliders are truly genetically compatible. Lemmy has a 2.5512% COI (a smidge on the high side, but that's to be expected with a colored glider when the color is a recessive trait - the goal of a good breeder is to help bring that number down in future generations). Tabitha has a 1.7578% COI, which is pretty good. their offspring will have a 0.1464% COI, which is amazingly good (it'll go up a little when I pair them back to another leucistic, though). Tabby and Lemmy have only one common ancestor, Cereal, and qualify as "unrelated" on the kinship chart. that combined with altogether not terribad amounts of inbreeding in their individual pedigrees makes them a good match .


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## whitelop

Her papers were eaten by prairie dogs or her gliders? Thats actually pretty terrible with the inbreeding. 

Haha. I think I'll stick to raising chickens.


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## Imbrium

LOL, the records were eaten


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## Tauntz

Just checked out your store web site! You did a great job with it! Very informative! I enjoyed reading your whole web site. I can tell you really love your sugar gliders & bunnies. Your "New to Gliders?" seemed to cover everything for a prospective glider person to get a feel for being a glider owner. Many of your toys both in your glider & bunny sections of your store are great, not only for gliders or bunnies but for birds as well! I'm always looking at toys & everything as a possible bird toy! lol Only had the opportunity to see gliders once at a bird show & never saw them again. Wanted to learn more & possibly get a pair but did not find a breeder near me. Wish you the best with your glider breeding & glider/bunny store!


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## Imbrium

thanks!

yeah, there's a ton of overlap between bird stuff and glider stuff, lol. the vast majority of my missing inventory (the stuff without shopping cart buttons) is actually going to come from a bird-oriented company.

I'd actually only seen a glider once or twice in my lifetime (the last time being probably a decade or more ago) when I decided to get them - they're quite rare, but they're amazing little creatures!


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## Tauntz

Oh, I know you accept PayPal but do you accept any other forms of payment? If so, you might want to add that to your web site.


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## Imbrium

supposedly you don't have to have paypal to check out using the paypal shopping cart... I'll look into confirming that tomorrow.

edit: I lied, I checked into it just now . on the shopping cart, there's a "check out" button and a "check out with paypal" button - if you click the "check out" button and then click on "don't have a paypal account", you can pay directly via credit or debit card instead of through paypal. I'll make a note of that on the storefront so people know


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## Tauntz

Thanks! I guess I didn't do as good of a job checking it out as I thought! lol I always check payment options prior to placing any orders. So often I go to sites & find things I want to order only to find out I don't have a suitable way to pay.


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## JBun

Welcome back!!! Sorry to hear about your glider  It can be really hard to lose our pets. I still get sad about losing Dash, and it's almost been a year since she died. It looks like you've been pretty busy though.

I have to say that I sure missed having you in the 'infirmary support group', haha. If I didn't feel up to typing up how to treat stasis, I would go back to a thread and you had gone and typed up what to do. Kind of nice to know there's someone else out there covering it too. There are a few others that will occasionally chime in, but you and I seemed to be there pretty consistantly. Good to have you back


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## HolyHandGrenade

hahah, I love the pics of Gazzle's flops  

Also, this one: Is Nala in mid-hop, or is she laying like that? Her butt is cute 




Sorry to hear about Trouble. I've missed your updates! So glad to see you stop by again. I think you'll be surprised at how big Monty has gotten since January :O


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## Imbrium

it's mid-hop, hehe



JBun said:


> I have to say that I sure missed having you in the 'infirmary support group', haha. If I didn't feel up to typing up how to treat stasis, I would go back to a thread and you had gone and typed up what to do. Kind of nice to know there's someone else out there covering it too. There are a few others that will occasionally chime in, but you and I seemed to be there pretty consistantly. Good to have you back



for stasis, I actually have a "form letter" type response saved in the notepad file that has all my frequently-quoted rabbit links because between here and yahoo answers, I got tired of typing the same thing out every time sometimes, lol. I just copy/paste and then go through and change pronouns (for bunny gender, etc.)/modify details as needed to fit the particular post I'm responding to .

and I know what you mean - I always really enjoyed that if I was too tired or busy or was offline for a long time when a stasis post came up, you were there to give all the same advice I would've given and when you weren't around, I often was so people always got really quick and thorough answers to those from one of us (which is definitely needed where stasis is concerned).


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## Imbrium

I have another great find for my store! it's for sugar glider cage-making, but is also posted on the "bunny" page - 4'' zip-ties for a lot less than at a hardware store (even after shipping)!  I got one bag when I was ordering some other stuff so I could test them out and make sure they a) were the same quality or better (they are) and b) would fasten securely around 1/2'' pvc pipe (they do) - I'm happy enough with them to place a bigger order and sell them in my store.


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## whitelop

I just paid like $12 for a bag of 300 zip ties from TSC. With three different sizes. Most expensive zip ties of my life. lmao. I'm glad you could find something cheaper! Its exciting. I don't know why they're so expensive, little bits of plastic that always get cut anyway. haha. (Sorry, haven't had my coffee yet!)


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## Imbrium

I know, it's crazy how much some places charge for them! ><


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## holtzchick

JENNIFER!!

I'm sorry this is an extremely brief message, I hadn't expected to find your blog active and I'm running to the gym (literally LOL) SO glad to see you back here!!!


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## agnesthelion

Wow. Just got caught up on your glider stuff sounds like you have really jumped into this! I'm sure it keeps you busy and it sounds like you enjoy it. Do you carry your gliders around with you? Do you feel like they bond with you like rabbits do? I've always been curious about their personalities.
Thanks for the glider tips. I think since I got two rabbits I won't be getting any gliders. I had done all that research back before I got Agnes. They are so cute and I like them alot but their diet, food throwing, pooping, crabbing.....not sure I could deal with that


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## Imbrium

I do carry them around a lot, though not when I'm awake late at night since they're wide awake then (we do "tent time" though). Tabby was sleeping in my hand until I put her down to type (because no way can I stand to type 1-handed). they bond with you WAY more than rabbits do. think puppy-dog personality in a teeny tiny creature . they have BIG personalities for such little creatures - all three of mine are quite different from each other.

I have plastic "kitchen" boxes for mine, so the food throwing is kept under control quite easily. they do use you as their personal toilet... I find the pee more bothersome than the poop, actually. the poop is usually fairly dry, like a bunny poop, so it's not too bad (and the volume is nothing compared to bunnies).


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## whitelop

Yeah I definitely don't think I would like something peeing on me. haha. Its something about the warmth that really bothers me. 
Oh the mealies are a HUGE hit in my house! haha. The rooster LOVES them and he lets me reach into his cage when I give him a few. Plus, you haven't seen adorable until you've seen two chicks playing tug-o-war with a mealie! 
I think I might actually put an order in to get a bulk amount, maybe not 3000 but some other smaller quantity(I don't know how they come and I need to look at the site tomorrow)


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## agnesthelion

Imbrium said:


> they bond with you WAY more than rabbits do. think puppy-dog personality in a teeny tiny creature . they have BIG personalities for such little creatures - all three of mine are quite different from each other.bunnies).



That's what attracted me to begin with was what I read about their personalities....just never knew if it was really like that! How sweet


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## Imbrium

Gaz scared the crap out of me just now!

She was in a very convincing DBF position on her side on the condo's landing... Nala was lying next to her and it almost looked like she was watching her... it would've been believable as a "mourning" position.

I figured it was just a DBF, since Gazzle IS the queen of those, so I made some noise and called her name pretty loudly... nothing. that got me worried enough to go into the pen and walk over to the condo, where I clapped my hands and called her name again. when even that failed to wake her, I started to get really worried. I poked her through the bars and the reaction was so minimal I couldn't tell if she'd moved or if I'd pushed her with my poke... she was warm, but it could've been "just died" warm... so I poked her again, harder. finally, she opened her eyes and looked at me and I was convinced she was alive... but she seemed so sluggish and gave such a bare minimum sort of response to being roused out of a very deep sleep that *that* worried me. finally I reached through the entrance to the condo and gave the underside of the shelf a good smack and she popped up and looked a me like "WTF, mom??"

then I pulled her out of the condo and gave her a good snuggling and told her not to scare her mommy like that


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## JBun

Lol, that must have been one comfortable rabbit!!! I hate it when they do that. It scares the crap out of me too.


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## agnesthelion

Haha omg that's funny! Archie did a similiar thing to me not too long ago. I was so freaked out I had my hubby come check on him, he still didn't wake up until I nudged him either. 

Silly buns. I think we just always expect rabbits to be on guard and when they aren't......it's freaky! I guess our domesticated buns lose a little bit of their fear when they are pampered and spoiled by human slaves


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## Tauntz

Glad she was okay! lol Gaz, its not nice to scare mom like that! Its fun but not nice! lol


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## Imbrium

what really worried me was the first poke - normally she jumps up if touched no matter how deeply she's out. darn bunny. I think she was probably stretched out/conked out more than usual 'cause the AC has been acting up and it was 75 in the house, so she was probably a little warm.


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## Chrisdoc

I think we´ve all been there before....and it is such a shame when they´re totally zonked out to go up and poke them just to make sure they´re still alive lol. 

it is true that they get so comfortable in their environment, they lose all that fear and really fall alseep, makes you feel good that they feel that safe. I suppose that why it´s called a dead bunny flop.


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## whitelop

So I just read Katies thread about stopping the Easter Bunnies! I decided to look on my local craigslist and a TON of people are selling sugar gliders. So someone put an ad up to warn people against it if they hadn't done their research! I thought that was great. This is what the ad says: 

"Anyone looking to take this persons glider needs to know the FACTS about gliders BEFORE taking this animal - the cage and most of the set up and supplies this person is selling this glider with are NOT appropriate NOR safe for gliders! DO YOUR RESEARCH first! Gliders have VERY specific dietary, housing, and enrichment needs NONE of which are being met by looking at those photos... so if you get this glider, be prepared to chuck EVERYTHING that comes with it and start from scratch... you can research their needs here: http://hammockhavenpetsplus.com and here: http://gliderali.com and here: http://critterlove.com"

I thought that was a great thing to see in hopes that it would stop someone from buying "an adorable little sugar glider". THEY'RE REAL ANIMALS!


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## whitelop

So I just read Katies thread about stopping the Easter Bunnies! I decided to look on my local craigslist and a TON of people are selling sugar gliders. So someone put an ad up to warn people against it if they hadn't done their research! I thought that was great. This is what the ad says: 

"Anyone looking to take this persons glider needs to know the FACTS about gliders BEFORE taking this animal - the cage and most of the set up and supplies this person is selling this glider with are NOT appropriate NOR safe for gliders! DO YOUR RESEARCH first! Gliders have VERY specific dietary, housing, and enrichment needs NONE of which are being met by looking at those photos... so if you get this glider, be prepared to chuck EVERYTHING that comes with it and start from scratch... you can research their needs here: http://hammockhavenpetsplus.com and here: http://gliderali.com and here: http://critterlove.com"

I thought that was a great thing to see in hopes that it would stop someone from buying "an adorable little sugar glider". THEY'RE REAL ANIMALS!


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## Imbrium

oh god, I made the mistake of trying to find the ad you were talking about (which is easier said than done since apparently craigslist doesn't have a thing for your city and I don't know the nearest one). ughhhh! people suck!



> i need someone to take my standard grey breeding pair of gliders, im moving and the stress will be to much on them


^ how is the stress of moving any worse than the stress of being rehomed? oh right, it isn't! in fact, it's LESS stress because at least with moving they still have their familiar human that they're hopefully bonded to. either the person is an idiot, they're lying about why they're getting rid of the gliders or both.



> I'm selling one male sugar glider, he's around 3 months old. I don't have specifics on him. He loves to glide, an. we have to get rid of him because he's trying to mate with a female, and we do not want babies.. Please e-mail me if you're interested. Serious inquiries only. I'm just trying to find him a good home. Thanks!


^ hi, genius. first of all, why didn't it occur to you when you got a male and a female glider that when they grew up a little, they would want to mate?
second of all, haven't you ever heard of a lovely little thing called "neutering"?
but no, no, instead of coughing up $100 or whatever to neuter your boy, you're going to uproot him and make him leave his new home AND his bonded companion right as he's finally adjusting to everything... a mere month after you got him (at least, I hope only a month, because they shouldn't be sold younger than 8 weeks old)??
and let me guess, they're not gonna replace him with a female, which will make their girl a solo glider and quite possibly cause depression, self mutilation or even death.



> Young female glider oop May 2012, cage with stand, toys and food tray. Must be familiar with gliders.
> Items included are:
> glider
> cage
> pouch
> bonding pouch
> food tray
> water bottle
> wheel
> branch
> ball
> misc hanging toys


^ first of all, that better be an ANCIENT pic, because the glider in that picture appears to be maybe 4 weeks oop at the most. secondly, POOR GLIDER! that wheel is the WORST POSSIBLE KIND - *way* too tiny and insanely dangerous! lastly, the "misc hanging toys" appears to be TWO. and not even very good ones. that cage is BARREN and that poor glider must be bored out of her freaking mind.



> 9 Month old female sugar glider. Comes with 3 feeding bowls, heating rock w/blanket, hanging pouch(hammock), emory board wheel,water bottle, vitamin powder, several types of treats, cheetah carrying pouch, 2 hanging toys, PVC coated cage (18x24x24) with pull out pan for easy cleaning. Call or text Amanda at 843-446-7840. Asking $400 obo.
> 
> WHOEVER KEEPS FLAGGING AND DELETING THIS POST PLEASE STOP I'M TRYING TO SELL SOMETHING AND IM NOT DOING ANYTHING WRONG!!!!


^ you're doing a lot of things wrong.
~ you have the wrong wheel (wodent wheels are dangerous and interfere with a glider's natural running style)
~ heating rocks are a HUGE no-no and are very, very dangerous
~ "vitamin powder" implies that the glider is on a bad diet (or so I gather from lack of mention as to which diet the powder is used for and lack of mention of any calcium supplement)
~ 2 hanging toys is way too few
~ that cage is WELL below the "bare minimum" cage size
~ you only have one glider and they need to be kept in pairs

I can't look any more. the desire to reach through the internet and b*tch-slap people is too overwhelming.


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## whitelop

Is that for stuff in South Carolina? 
No I don't have a CL for my area, I have to do Charlotte NC or Greenville SC, that pretty much covers my town and near by bigger towns too. 
I just wrote a thing on easter bunnies because Katie inspired me. Hopefully there will be less easter bunnies this year. I didn't see many ads though. But if those are ads for gliders in my area maybe I missed them, but I did see a few; like a few too many because I've never seen glider ads before. I wonder if there was an explosion of gliders in my area? Weird. 
If I knew that I could take care of them the way they needed to be taken care of and I could bond with a glider pair like that, then I would rescue them. But unfortunately the inn is full here and I don't have the time. I'm sure I COULD do it, but it would be stressful for ME! haha. I just feel so sorry for the little ones out there with these bigass rednecks in this area.


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## Imbrium

yeah, those were all ads for gliders in SC


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## Chrisdoc

People are just so irresponsible and tell blatant fibs which they think people won´t realise. I love reading about gliders but it is a lot work and looks like you have to be really dedicated if you want to get into this but they are awesome little animals, I love reading about them but couldn´t take that responsibility on. There´ll always be people who acquire animals cos it seemed like a good idea at the time but when push comes to shove, they just can´t be bothered when they do take up lots of their time and they just decide to get rid of them. It happens with gliders, rabbits, dogs, cats and it really makes my blood boil. And then they had the cheek to complain cos someone was trying to delete the ad....wish they´d have succeeded.


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## Imbrium

EWWWW!! so my **** AC is on the fritz and it's hot and muggy (to the point of sweltering) in my house. I opted to open a window because it's surprisingly nice and breezy outside... and when I did, it turns out that a big-ass tree roach had gotten stuck between the screen part and the window part!! UGH! they're the only thing in the world I'm truly terrified of, alive or dead.

thank GOD it was dead, though - the window I opened was the one in the merchandise room that's full of glider toy parts, meaning my usual roach-killing method of grabbing a can of raid and dousing the little bastard in lemony-fresh deadly poison was 100% not an option because of the risk that some tiny bit of it might manage to mist onto something a glider might touch.

now I'm holed up in my room, trying to summon up the courage to vacuum up the little jackass. what really sucks is the only remotely close outlet is DIRECTLY below the **** roach and there is no way in hell I'm getting that close, which means I either need to find an extension cord or crawl under the dining room table.

MAN, do I hate roaches!!


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## Imbrium

whee! just made my first sale on my website! it was an adventure, too, as the woman lives in Canada so I had to learn about shipping internationally and customs forms and such, hehe. she inquired about how much shipping would be before committing to the order. she was expecting to be told around $30-35 since that's what she'd been told elsewhere it would probably be for a very light-weight package. $30 was right... if I was stupid and shipped through UPS or FedEx, lol. she was shocked when I came back with a quote of $9.05 ($8.55 for shipping/50c for the box) - yay, USPS first class mail for packages under 13 ounces!


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## Tauntz

:woohoo Congratulations on your first sale! Hope I too can place a bunny order with you soon, maybe this weekend (Have to check my finances.). You have done a great job with your web site, I'm sure your sales will grow quickly as people learn about it!


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## Imbrium

thanks! I need to start advertising it and adding it to glider vendor databases and such now that I've got most stuff in stock, hehe. at this point, it's just in my sig here and on glider central, plus the few times I've mentioned it in a post


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## agnesthelion

I just googled Texas tree roaches and I'm for sure having nightmares tonight. Good GRIEF they are yucky (shudders)

Congrats on your first online sale!


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## whitelop

Congrats on the sale! How exciting!


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## Kzbun

Congrats on the sale!! 

And Roaches don't scare me in the least.. when I was in 7th grade we had some Roaches in a science class for some sort of experiments (I don't remember now). I pet them all the time!! What freaks me out is EARWIGS... EEEE -shudder-


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## PaGal

Congratulations on your first sale!

I dislike most of the pet ads on craigs list. There are too many people getting rid of their dogs/puppies they haven't had for long. Or kittens that could have been avoided with a simple spay. Animals that are old. How many people will take on an older animal and why would you do that. Then there are those that just have no clue and are giving pets to others that have no clue.

I have had just about every pet out there but not a sugar glider. I did think about it in the past but at this point in life with kids and other pets I know I would not be able to provide all of the time they would require. Plus I don't think my husband would come near me if I was an animals litter box everyday. 

I would love to just be able to watch some go about their day though.


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## Troller

Congratulations on your first sale. One of these days I really got to look into what a sugar glider is...I swear for a little while I thought folks we're talking about a candy.


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## Imbrium

agnesthelion said:


> I just googled Texas tree roaches and I'm for sure having nightmares tonight. Good GRIEF they are yucky (shudders)
> 
> Congrats on your first online sale!



oh dear god, WHY?? WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT TO YOURSELF?? I can't stand even pictures of them. I remember an old commercial that used to piss me off 'cause they made it look like there was a roach crawling on your tv screen.



PaGal said:


> I would love to just be able to watch some go about their day though.



if my comp refused to let me upload videos, I'd take some for ya 

here's a really cute youtube video, though - slow motion of gliders playing in their wheel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=s1V91ze6dvs

(hmm, where the heck did the option to embed a video go?)


----------



## Chrisdoc

Great stuff that you´ve had your first sale, that´s the hardest. I´m sure you´ll get many more one you´re out there. 

And those roaches, they´re just like the ones over here. I once had an infestation in my kitchen, I could hear them moving about, it was one of the worst sounds I´ve ever heard, like something from a horror movie, I remember loads running about the kitchen floor and me there killing them all... yuk. They just make me shudder every time. There´s a programme on UK TV where they put celebs in the jungle in Australia and they have to do trials and they´re always putting them in boxes or caves and throwing these things on top of them...I couldn´t do that however much you paid me.


----------



## Chrisdoc

Lisa, have just watched the video and I love them. They are so cute and those tails...remind me of a lemur and they´re such a lovely colour and look so soft. Love them.


----------



## Chrisdoc

Sorry Jennifer, have renamed you....I´ve doing too many things at once today lol.


----------



## Imbrium

Chrisdoc said:


> I once had an infestation in my kitchen, I could hear them moving about, it was one of the worst sounds I´ve ever heard, like something from a horror movie, I remember loads running about the kitchen floor and me there killing them all... yuk.



I would relocate to a cardboard box in a suspicious-looking alley before I'd live in a house that had an infestation like that. hell, screw the cardboard box, I'd just take the sugar gliders' tent - it's way better than a box 'cause then if there's a roach in the alley, too, it couldn't ambush me. f-ing roaches. I hate them with the fire of a thousand suns!!!

as for the video... man, I wish I could've recorded my tent-adventures earlier this morning for you. I had one of those cat teasers with the stick and the plastic string and feathers on the end of it... Hurricane was stalking it like a miniature cat, then I was holding it up and she was treating the stick like a tightrope! it was SO cute, especially when she was hanging upside-down from the stick by her back legs, all stretched out with her front hands reaching for those feathers, hehehe.


----------



## Chrisdoc

It´s a shame that you can´t video, they are such adorable little creatures, I just love that long tail. I´ll probably go back on youtube and watch a some more on the gliders. 

Yes, I did think about moving but sometimes you can survive anything and in that house, I did have everything; roaches, rats, snakes, ants....was I glad to get out of there eventually, probably the worst place I´ve lived ever.


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## whitelop

I live in a super old house and I've never found a roach. I've never even seen one in the yard. I don't know why, because when we lived in the city we had them come up and eat the cat food. I once killed a roach that was so large, he must have been hanging out with Jesus. He walked up to me, I looked at it and he looked at me and there was just this understanding that it was his time. He was black and like the size of a tv clicker. He knew what time it was and he didn't even try to run. I think out where we are, the spiders have scared away the roaches and the chickens may have eaten them too. But theres something about the area, we don't have them...that I've seen. THANKGOD.

I have 2 fears for critters; spiders particularly wolf spiders and rattle snakes. We have these massive wolf spiders at my house, where you have tree roaches we have hand-sized horror movie looking spiders. And I have a sort of irrational fear of rattle snakes, as it turns out we have 4 types that live in this area, but I've never seen one. So every time I see a hole in the yard I freak out a little because I think its a rattle snake. 


So the gliders "hunt" like cats? haha. I bet that was hilarious to watch! Where do they come from? Australia? They live in the wild right? I bet they're funny.


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## Imbrium

Australia and I think also Indonesia or some place. they display hunting behaviors while playing sometimes... I guess 'cause they're insectivores and have to capture little moving insects


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## agnesthelion

Wolf spiders are on my list of bugs that freak me out. 

And silverfish. UHg...all the legs. I trapped one under a glass bowl one time because I was home alone and too scared to kill it but yet didn't want it running around my house. It glared at me from under the bowl I swear.I'm getting chills just remembering that......


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## Kzbun

Ever see a camel spider? I at least think that's what they're called... It makes me think of spy kids, that one where that scientist mixed animals and there was that spider human thingy... anyway, my brother had a hard time with then when he was in Iraq


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## agnesthelion

Oh my sakes alive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

I would pass out if i saw one. Just googled camel spider and this is what I found. WARNING. Very scary!

http://www.camelspiders.net/large-camel-spider-picture.htm


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## agnesthelion

Jennifer.....do you like how your blog turned into bug talk central? Hahahaha


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## Chrisdoc

Wish I hadn´t looked at that, I´ll be having nightmares. Glad there´s nothing that big over here.


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## Kzbun

Yeah, my brother and his fellow Marines had to deal with those. Apparently they went in pairs to the bathrooms because of those things. One of the soldiers got caught off guard by one and shot it several times. I got to say, I don't really blame him...
And Sorry Chris, for bringing it up and inspiring Lisa to google search it :3 And WHY does my computer keep saying google is spelled wrong.


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## Imbrium

agnesthelion said:


> Jennifer.....do you like how your blog turned into bug talk central? Hahahaha



I'm just glad we're talking about spiders instead of roaches!


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## whitelop

Sweet baby jesus I just looked at the camel spider and screamed! I spilled some coffee on myself and now I'm really uncomfortable in my house. Not that I live in Iraq but still...*looks around* I CAN NOT WAIT TO SHOW MY HUSBAND! hahahahaha. 
When I first read "camel spider" I thought you were talking about a camel back cricket or also called a spider cricket, I didn't know there was such a thing as a camel spider. I don't know where I got cricket in my mind, but those are one of my larger bug fears, with the legs and the jumping and the clicking and the ughh. 

Well, I knew the middle east was a place I never wanted to go...thats just another con to add to the list. 
Thanks for googling that for me Lisa!

WAIT! I thought spiders were only supposed to have 8 legs?! Thats WAY more than 8 legs! Its got too many f-ing legs! *runs to throw up*


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## HolyHandGrenade

Imbrium said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=s1V91ze6dvs
> 
> (hmm, where the heck did the option to embed a video go?)
> 
> [/URL]



Just paste the regular youtube url (without any additions like feature=player_embedded, etc) and it embeds automatically

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1V91ze6dvs[/ame]


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## agnesthelion

Oh my goodness that video cracked me up!! I missed the video link before (thanks Missy for the embedded link) but seriously the one glider looked like he/she was holding on for dear life and the other glider was like...wheeeee! I'm jumpin! I'm getting this thing to spin! Here I go again......wheeeee! 
Meanwhile other glider was STILL holding on for dear life.....hahaha.....funny video


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## Imbrium

UGH!! I've been a horrible bunny-momma :tears2:

I starved my poor girls so bad, I think I broke their bond :tears2:

I forgot to feed them before bed... I remembered right before I fell asleep, but Tabby and I were already curled up in the tent and I knew the girls had a third of their hay manger and a big pile of veggies and I figured they'd be ok so I didn't get up. 8-9h later, I went out and their manger was nearly empty (had a little bit at the bottom, but it was below the last of the bigger holes). when I went to fill it, they RAN over like they were starving and started eating, but as I grabbed another big handful to stuff in, they got into a BAD fight, like standing on their hind legs and kinda balled up together fight, it was TERRIFYING! I yelled and rushed into the pen and they scattered but with Nala chasing Gaz... I herded Gaz away from Nala and picked her up and gave her some snuggles and checked for wounds.

they calmed down and I finished filling the hay, then went to give them pellets. Nala came into the condo with Gazzles and they seemed ok... I hand-fed them some pellets together through the wall and they were ripping them out of my hand like they were famished. everything seemed okay, so I left them together and went to get myself some breakfast... but then there was another scuffle. I have them separated now - Nala in the condo with the pellets and some hay and a water bottle; Gazzles out in the pen with the main hay manger and the cat waterer (no pellets, but she's chubby again and a good veggie eater, so I'd prefer she not gorge herself on pellets anyway).

I feel so awful for not getting up and feeding them before I went to sleep 

I'll take them to neutral territory later, either outside when the sun comes up or if that doesn't do it, to my neighbor's house once she's awake. hopefully I can get them back on track. I can't believe I let my poor babies get so hungry that it made them fight :tears2:


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## Imbrium

ugh, Nala's going insane over being locked in the condo... but I can't switch them because I don't want Gazzles alone with nearly 1/4c of pellets and moving the pellet bowl is a pain in the butt


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## whitelop

Awwww. That kind of crazy that they would fight over hay! I hope you guys can get everything back to normal soon! I hope they're okay.


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## whitelop

I figured I'd answer your questions about the gift basket on your blog, not the other thread! haha. 

Yes, she LOVES the wiffle balls, I couldn't remember what they were called on the other thread. But she likes to roll them around, its funny because the bigger one is pretty much as big as she is! 
Everything I got in my care package was perfect! I don't need any payapa bites or anything, but I know that people like to feel them to their buns, and I know people like to give willow balls. As you know, since you have them to sell! hahaha. 
Those were just my suggestions for other things to go into the gift baskets, other things that buns like! haha. I loved my care package. So did Ellie.

I keep her craisins in this little pocket thing in the cubby her stuff is in and she knows where they are. So when I go to that cubby she will stand ALL the way up on her back legs, like on her tippy toes to wait for the craisin. LOL Then when she gets it, she can't even be bothered to put her front her feet on back on the floor, she stays periscoping with this really happy/goofy look on her face while she's eating the craisin. Its pretty funny!


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## Imbrium

well, I don't actually have the willow balls to sell, I just have a serious personal stash  I gave one to q-tip's mommy when I sent her some stuff and q-tip demolished it in no time flat!

mine go insane over the craisins, too - they know when I'm reaching for that bag! they like the pomegranate-infused ones way better than the regular ones.


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## agnesthelion

Don't beat yourself up. You didn't starve them  and let's face it....they've fought before so it might not have been the food. It may appear that it was but a pair that doesn't have some problems won't fight because of food. So there's probably an underlying issue there and it wasn't your fault at all because of the food....
But what a bummer  sounds like a bad fight. Rabbit fights freak me out! Obviously you are right to take them to neutral territory later. Let us kmow how it goes.


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## Imbrium

I know... but I still feel bad because it's obvious they were REALLY hungry. granted, if they were THAT desperate, they could/should have eaten some of the crapton of hay that they've piled up in part of the litter box that they don't pee on (because they drop some pulling it out of the manger) or that they've strewn ALL over the floor (today is/was cleaning day for the bunny pen)... but sometimes I get the feeling they'd sooner starve than stop wasting so much hay.


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## Chrisdoc

Rabbits are sometimes so unpredictable. I hope they manage to sort out their differences, I sometimes laugh because I give mine a talking to and hope that one of these days they´ll understand. Sort of "if you´d stop niggling each other, you´d both get to stay out all day instead of taking turns" It is frustrating but it´ll sort itself out, they were out together yesterday and they were Ok for a good few hours but I do separate them if they start to seem as though they´ll niggle. I´m gonna post a video where they were out together and then they had a tiny nip at the end so you´ll see what I mean. 

Mine love the willow stuff, balls and tunnels, they demolish them. I´ve been looking for papaya tablets over here as I´m seriously trying to put together a first aid kit.. I´m going to ask my sister if she can get them in the UK.


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## Imbrium

wtf... did you know you can't mail playing cards to spain??

by the looks of it, though, papaya tablets could get past customs


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## Chrisdoc

I can believe anything but I´m intrigued as to why playing card ???? I now know you can´t post a computer battery as I bought one on ebay from the UK and got my sister to send it and it was sent to her with a very snooty letter from customs saying it was a criminal offence to send it....but you can carry it in your hand luggage on the plane with you. In the end, she send it to my friend´s brother´s house and when she came back from Scotland, she brought it with her....weird eh 

I´ll have to think about that Jennifer if my sister can´t get them...she´s coming over in April so I´m hoping she´ll find them.


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## PaGal

I really enjoyed the video although for some reason by the end it had made me start to feel motion sick, I guess because of watching it on the computer. They are so interesting and adorable, for now I will have live vicariously through you.


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## Imbrium

people suck.

first of all, f*ck the construction jerks in my area... not the actual workers, the idiots who tell them what to do. they had a couple miles of a MAJOR highway through a very busy part of town closed for like a week and forced three lanes of highway traffic onto the access road. ok, fine, they need to re-pave the highway. I can understand that. that's not what really pissed me off about it - what pissed me off is when the morons f-ing closed a lane of the access road for repaving at the SAME **** TIME. do ONE project at a time, god **** it! forcing 6 lanes of traffic down to 2 AND having a ton of stoplights in the path of said traffic is just plain asinine.

complaint #2 about the construction jerks. after they FINALLY re-opened the highway, the b*stards closed the exit I need to take to get to my house. again, I get that they needed to do work there. what pissed me off was that they didn't PUT UP A FREAKING WARNING SIGN. the kind that they put up 99% of the time to warn you when an exit is going to be closed. you know, so I could get off one exit before my normal one instead of one exit after, which would've been significantly faster.

then when I got off the later exit, some asshat decided that the sign telling him to yield to me actually meant "completely fail to yield, then top it off by blatantly cutting off the very traffic you were supposed to yield to. when said traffic lays on the horn to tell you that you're being a douchebag, ignore it and keep on hijacking their lane anyway."

on a non "I hate people" note... why is it that humans pay good money to get brushed, styled and given a mani/pedi but if you give bunnies that sort of spa treatment for free, they express their "gratitude" by gnawing on your shoulder and giving you a swift kick in the boob?

grumbles over their grooming session aside, Nala and Gaz are doing well. after their bond broke last Friday, they spent the day apart. late that night/early Saturday morning, we had an extensive re-bonding session and they've been back to their normal, noisy destructive selves ever since.


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## Chrisdoc

Jennifer, so I understand you, they do that all the time here and I hate it when they don´t warn that you can´t exit where you usually do and then you end up having to go miles round and waste time and petrol. They did works on my friend´s street and it was closed for over three months. After the opened it again, a month later they started digging it up again and there are still holes all over it although you can now access it again. Whey the hell don´t they do all the work at once, they couldn´t organise a piss up in a brewery over here. 

Haha, it is true that buns just don´t appreciate all these expensive treatments they get for free. 

Glad to hear that the two of them are getting on again and that their little difference didn´t last for long. I had my three out last night and they did exceptionally well. I´ve just got them all out tonight but I´ve put Snowy away. I think they´ve just got too much energy tonight as they´ve been cooped up all day as I´ve been out so I´ll wait until tomorrow so I can get them out earlier.


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## whitelop

Thats good that they like each other again! haha. 

I am SO glad I don't have to deal with road construction or anything like that. The only thing I have a problem with is when they fill in the giant pot hole in front of my house. It brings me this wonderful gratitude when I hear people who are speeding slam into that 15 inch deep hole. I love it. It warms my heart every single time. THEN the jerks come and fill it up and I want to go dig it back out. But I don't, because it only takes a few days of driving on it for it to become a hole again. I love that pothole, as much as one can love a hole in the road I guess. But it does bring me some sick joy. 

I hope your terrible traffic ends soon. I hate that stuff.


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## Imbrium

LOL... I can just picture you with a bigass shovel, digging the hole back up!


----------



## Imbrium

the sugar glider forum's profanity filter just reached a whole new level of stupidity and jackassery. I got "[censored]" for using the acronym "FTW"

IT MEANS "FOR THE WIN," YOU STUPIDASS FILTER THAT LETS ME SAY JACKASS YET BLEEPS ME FOR BULLSH*T THAT DOESN'T EVEN INVOLVE A SWEAR WORD!!

there is NO phrase that I have EVER heard that starts with the word "f*ck" and is followed by two words starting with "t" and "w". I could come up with one, I suppose, but there's no mainstream saying that fits that acronym and involves the F word.

f-ing filter. man, I hate that filter. even more, I hate how serious they get about the rules over there that you're not even allowed to push the envelope a little by self-censoring instead of typing out the swear and letting the forum censor it. when I edited my post to ask what the heck was up with the filter bleeping WTF, I was scared to type that "it censored W-T-F" because if I had, I bet you ANYTHING I would've gotten scolded by a mod for "circumventing the filter" even though IT'S NOT AN F-ING SWEAR TO BEGIN WITH.

*glare*


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## agnesthelion

Yay glad Nala and Gaz are getting along again! That's some positivity that I love reading about


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## Imbrium

I can think of other positive things I'd rather be able to report about.

oh, how I'd love to be able to say something like...
Nala and Gaz finally stopped getting more hay on the floor than they do into their tummies and then pooping on it and making a huge mess!
or
Nala and Gaz no longer have to be given at least one $5, unhealthy snack log a week in order to stop them from eating coroplast!
or
Nala and Gaz suddenly decided they're willing to eat dirt cheap feed store hay after all!
or
Holy crap, the housekeeping fairy deep-cleaned the bunny pen while I was sleeping!
or
Gaz FINALLY stopped molting explosively!

but sadly, those are all pipe-dreams >.>


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## kmaben

You just get a big HAHA from me Jen.


----------



## Chrisdoc

I have just been cleaning up this morning and I am sick of hay and hair. However much I clean the floors, there´s always strands of hay still down there and why do they feel they have to throw it on the floor to be able to eat it. And the hair is doing my head in at the moment. I am sorely tempted to shave Bandy just to have a rest from it. His hair gets everywhere, I was still spitting it out of my mouth two hours after grooming him.

Do I wish I had a magic wand :whistling errrrr yes please.


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## Imbrium

oh, and apparently FTW can also mean "f- the world" so even though it only gets used that way like 1% of the time and the other 99% of the time it means "for the win", the f*ckers feel the need to censor it. censoring acronyms is pure jackassery. it's just random letters, it could mean anything. you don't know for sure if I was swearing or not and even if I was, for you to know that I was, you'd obviously be old enough to know all about swear words. I f-ing hate that oversensitive filter. PG rating, my ass. I can't say "pissed" or "FUBAR" or "FTW". my MOM used to say "fubar" now and then and she never, EVER used the f-word itself in my entire life. I would say "pissed" or "fubar" in front of a 10 year old without thinking twice, and if they asked me what "fubar" meant, I would tell them "screwed up" and no one would be offended. PG ratings on online forums are pure jackassery, too - if you're under 13, you probably shouldn't be talking to random strangers on the internet without parental supervision anyway and if you're mature enough that your parents let you do that, then you're mature enough to know not to repeat any swear words you read in front of your parents.

also, censoring all the stuff that they censor, yet still allowing some of the compound nouns that involve the word "ass" is fubar. I'll never understand that.

I swear they let the far right wing wack-jobs tune the profanity filter over there.


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## whitelop

Well at least they don't leave you rabbit sized piles of poop by the back door. Elli pooped her body weight in poop last night by the door. I was shocked.


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## Chrisdoc

ohhhh, who´s being a naughty little madam again. Do you think she watches you come in and sees your face and is secretly laughing at you :whistling


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## whitelop

I'm sure she is. You should have seen my face this morning. My jaw hit the floor, I just stared at it for like 2 minutes and then had to sweep it all up. I should have taken a picture, you guys would have cried!


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## Chrisdoc

OMG, I bet you were gobsmacked. She is such a naughty little girl but I bet you´re not mad at her for long...she looks at you with that innocent face like "mom did I do something wrong" lmao.


----------



## Troller

I got a pile of 'care packages' on the couch a few days ago. I was surprised but thankful that all it was was poop. Problem is my couch is dark brown and those pills sure do camouflage well. Heh, well don't get too angry and like Chris said you look at their lil faces and it all becomes worthwhile again.


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## Chrisdoc

I had to laugh at the image...Ellie´s poop pile and Conan or Xena´s....bet there´s a big difference lol.


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## Imbrium

ugh. I just got totally blind-sided by the "D" word via text message .

Jay, my best friend, is apparently getting divorced. he's pretty much the last person I EVER imagined would get divorced, too - he's always been so insanely head-over-heels in love with Debbie, so I figured it would last for sure. hell, last time I was in Houston, he was telling me how they were planning to move out of their apartment and get a house. the gist of it is that she's NEVER around; always picking her family over him... and he finally got fed up with having a wife who was never there... called her out on it and tried to work things out, but I guess it didn't happen 

I told him I was here if he ever needed to talk... or that I could take a little trip to Houston if he just needed a friend to get sh*t-faced with and/or hit up some strip clubs when he got to that point in the recovery process, lol. you know, the basic "best friend" jobs when a guy goes through a really horrible break-up .

man, though, I'm still totally in shock.


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## qtipthebun

That sucks. Although I do like that your immediate reaction was drink and go to strip clubs. This is why I like you.


----------



## Chrisdoc

That is so sad for him and he must be gutted. He´s lucky to have a friend like you and yes, having a shoulder to cry on between drinks is always a good solution. 

Hope the bunnies and the sugar gliders are all doing well :nod


----------



## Imbrium

qtipthebun said:


> That sucks. Although I do like that your immediate reaction was drink and go to strip clubs. This is why I like you.



lol... I was totally thinking earlier that it's a pity you're almost certainly too busy for a trip to Houston 'cause the three of us would probably have a ton of fun with a "guys' night out" and it's not like you're all that far away 

and hell, if we're plotting the *ultimate* "guys' night out" for Jay, we'll totally need to bring Morgan along. I can't even begin to imagine the insanity of their combined ranting/scene-making powers. first stop the four of us would make would definitely be that god-awful pet store in Katy. you and I could sit there watching it unfold, video-taping it for posterity and keeping an eye out for the cops getting close and the two of them would rip the entire store a new one . he's lonely and wants attention right now (more than usual, I mean - he always likes attention) and doesn't give a **** if it's good or bad... he nearly made a scene on the bus on the way home tonight just for the hell of it... and you KNOW a dual rant would garner massive amounts of attention for him!

it didn't take very long at all of texting back and forth last night (which started like 11 hours ago and is STILL going on, lol (though not so much right now as he's busy walking through the taco bell drive thru), since I'm nocturnal and he's just bat-sh*t crazy and almost never sleeps at all) to realize that he definitely really needs me to come out there. after being married for god knows how many years (I've honestly never asked, but I've been friends with him for probably around 5 years now and the marriage was well established before I ever met him), he's suddenly all by himself in what used to be their apartment and has been for at least a couple weeks. personally, I'm quite happy living alone... but it's a *massive* adjustment for him and he does not like it at ALL. it's really driving him crazy (well, crazier). like me, he has very few close friends - to the point that, despite living 3h apart and us not playing online games together all night for quite some time now, we're still each others' best friend... so once I get my sh*t together around here over the next few days, off I'll go to Houston to hang out with and "babysit" him for 2-3 days, lol.

it's going to be interesting, as he wants "snuggles" and I'm going to be bringing them... times 5. in theory, I could ask my neighbor to pet-sit, as I feed and water their cat for them whenever they go out of town and will be asking her to feed the **** stray cat that refuses to GTFO and lately has taken to sitting on the outer sill of an open window and "talking" to me all night... but I really can't even imagine not having my gliders within arm's reach more often than not let alone at all for DAYS and I've never left the bunnies alone for more than a day-trip before and would worry myself sick with "what ifs" if they were home alone with only a twice-daily check-in while I was gone. the hamsters can stay here without even being looked after, as all I have to do is leave a huge pile of food in every cage and make sure the water bottles are 100% full before I go... but I'll be taking Nala, Gaz, Hurricane, Lemmy and Tabby with me. Jay LOVES the gliders as much as I do (they'll definitely go a LONG way towards cheering him up) and while he's never met the bunnies, his response the first time I sent him pictures was that he wanted bunnies too . it'll be interesting, as he got Debby a kitten not long before things went to hell and she left it behind when she moved out so he's claiming it as his now... I suspect the kitten is going to turn out to be smaller than the bunnies; if it is, that's going to amuse the hell out of me, lol. especially since I'd bet anything that Nala will boss it around.

the only things I'm dreading about going to see him is having to a) clean my car out (which I've been heavily relying on for "overflow" from the pseudo-warehouse I've collected for the online store) and b) pack for the trip. if I were going alone, I could fit 2-3 days worth of necessities in the front seat with tons of room to spare... but with the menagerie along, I'm not even entirely sure I can get everything I need to take into my little car (especially with how sh*tty the size of the trunk opening is - I dunno that I can get an x-pen into it, which means it would have to somehow go in the back seat with the animals). it's going to look like I'm moving in with all the crap I'll be showing up with - cages, wheels, toys, chews, noms, a tent, a tarp to go under the x-pen to protect his carpet, litter boxes and litter, a huge-ass box of hay and anything and everything else my babies will need while we're away from home.


----------



## Imbrium

on a side note, Gaz suddenly grew a tiny dewlap!


----------



## qtipthebun

****, that's a good friend. Glad to be on your good side! Packing up the zoo and bringing them with you...I can't wait to hear how Nala reacts to the cat! Q-tip says "tell her that cats are there to beat the crap out of...that's their only purpose for exisiting...for bunnies to beat up." She's got strong views on the subject.

Also, tiny dewlaps=love. Nanners here has one too. I love that it's stayed tiny, but it's there!


----------



## Imbrium

he's also got a freaking HUGE cat that's bigger than both my bunnies combined... but that cat's so fat and worthless that there's no way he's capable of posing a threat to the bunnies, lol. knowing Nala, she might even boss him around too - she's a pushy little gal! it's a good thing for the cats that you and q-tip won't be there, hehe... then the bunnies would have them out-numbered!


----------



## Imbrium

I fail at understanding my gender so, SO much of the time. I'm honestly rather shocked that they haven't taken away my "girl card" yet... perhaps because I don't actually understand it, but can gather enough of the gist to translate? though then you'd think I'd get in trouble for translating...

if your husband decides to divorce you because, as much as he's always loved you, he just can't take the fact that you're never around any more... why the f*ck would you ask him - REPEATEDLY - if he's ok??

I mean, seriously! of COURSE he's not ok... but god knows he doesn't want to talk to you about it or even tell you that, seeing as he's divorcing you and making some vague attempt (that isn't going well) to get on with his life! I don't care if it makes you feel better to ask, it's STUPID to ask. what the hell is he supposed to say? especially the sixth time you ask him!

girls piss me off. they do stuff that makes guys bat-sh*t crazy and then I have the "fun" of being the friend who comes along and cleans up after the crazy-fest.



> Here was my first response to her in weeks... "here's my cup of care. Oh look, it's not there" nuff said.


ok, as much as this whole situation is no laughing matter... that text just now made me laugh so hard it hurts.

I just hope he keeps it together ok long enough for me to get my ass over there... the whole "bi polar" thing is acting up at the moment and making the process of getting my sh*t together and getting ready for a trip FAR more difficult than it oughta be, which is awfully inconvenient... I feel like I could really stand to have someone doing for me what I'm *trying* to get to Houston to do for him, and that's really not helping matters one bit. it's hard to disperse crazy with more crazy - they don't exactly tend to cancel each other out >.>

I'm hoping that instead of the crazy stock-piling out of control, it'll do some exponential sh*t and then magically convert into something helpful, like maybe becoming so massive it collapses on itself and forms a black hole for "crazy" and just sucks all of it up and makes everything normal again.

and yeah... I'm a little bit on the drunk side and sharing the bizarre ramblings I normally keep to myself... it's a peculiar situation that warrants needing an outlet for once, 'cause it's not going away on its own this time. I have no freaking clue how to deal with divorce... I normally steer way the hell clear of other peoples' break-ups in general; divorce is a whole new ball-game, and I can't dodge it like I usually do, because it's my best friend and that's a total exception to my "no freaking drama" rule. and as a note, this whole thing makes me feel really old, lol (especially since Jay's a little bit younger than me). when the hell did we become grown-ups?? I never agreed to that >.>


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## PaGal

I am only just now getting my second cup of coffee so it may not make as much sense as in my head. Divorce is tough even if you are the one that chose the course of action. I am sorry your buddy is going through this and I know how challenging it can be to try and help someone through this. Unfortunately all that you can really do is offer a shoulder and an ear. 

I think only time can heal the wound and make it feel better just as with death. All of the condolences are nice but it is only time that makes it all bearable. 

It is so very hard and painful when there is something you are missing in the relationship although you love the other and they either refuse to work on things or refuse to make adjustments so that both may be happy and enjoy. It is so hard to love someone and make the decision to move on in life without them because you cannot settle for less.


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## Imbrium

indeed. the whole situation sucks SO much, and I'm kinda pissed at Debbie for being mad at him for leaving when she refused to work on anything when he kept bringing it up. I really wish they could've worked stuff out, as they used to be incredibly happy together and, before things went to hell, she was *really* good for him.

best I can offer him is some temporary distraction and a reminder that no matter how much divorce sucks, there are still things in life worth enjoying (like friends and gliders and bunnies... and the delightfully evil cell phone signal blocker I bought for us to play with, even if it has a depressingly small radius of 10 feet, lol - that got him a bit excited).


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## whitelop

Divorce has to suck. I have never been divorced, but my parents got divorced when I was 9 and I don't really remember it. All I know is that some stuff has come out into the open recently that has made me think differently about both of my parents. 
Anyway, as much as it sucks; there are 3 sides to every story, his side, her side and the truth. 
(bear with me, I've yet to make it through my one cup of coffee and its now noon.) 
As much as you have to support your friend, which you're not wrong for doing. People don't just up and decide that they aren't going to spend time with their spouse, that they aren't going to come home. Something happens that makes that person do those things. Something that the other person did, changes the way that the person who is gone is thinking about their relationship and the person that they are in a relationship with. 
I'm not say that your friend is totally to blame or to blame at all. But not always does the light just go out on the relationship and you're forced to choose to end it. Sometimes its something that happens, that isn't being said aloud. 
There is a quote from When Harry Met Sally, its the best movie line I can think of, its; "its not infidelity that breaks up a marriage, its the reason behind it." 
I'm not trying to say that she is cheating or anything, so don't take it like that. Look at it in the broader sense, like there is something else going on that YOU don't know about. As much as its sad and as hard as it is to have those papers drawn up and have the signatures on them...only they know what was going on during their marriage. As much as he wants to say it was all her, then there is definitely something adding to the flames from his side. 

But to put the blame on all women isn't fair! All people are crazy. People in a general sense suck. But to say that woman are crazy for asking whats wrong is harsh. You think men don't make US crazy? Have you ever lived with a man or spent a large amount of time with a man? There are only so many dirty socks on the coffee table or plates on the arm of the couch or dirty clothes in the floor or muddy foot prints on a clean floor or grass clumps or greasy door knobs or dirty towels IN the shower or shoes in the middle of the floor or no food in the house or not taking the trash out ever, even though its your only job...that you can take before you f-ing snap on someone. I mean, really. Women aren't the weaker sex, men are...because they have women who take care of them and make sure everything gets done. Now, I'm not a man hater or anything, I'm just a plain ol' people hater. But I live with a man who was taken care of by a woman who took care of everything and now I take care of everything for him and my son, who will have been raised by a woman who takes care of everything and will probably end up with a woman who takes care of everything. Its the way of the woman, and to say that we're crazy or that we're whatever...isn't true. Its ALL people. I'm not a feminist either, it just angers me to see people say "its the woman who did this" and put no blame on the man. Marriage is a team effort. It never ends, you have to work together every single day of your married lives, just before someone is off at work or at a friends house doesn't mean that marriage is on a break, you're still a team no matter what. So if one person quits the team, there is a good chance that the other team member did something to weaken the team. 

I'm not trying to take anything away from your friends pain, but its unfair to point all the fingers at her. I've also had very little coffee and my feet are cold, so my brain isn't working properly.


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## Chrisdoc

I sort of agree with everyone. It is really difficult to know exactly what happened in any situation unless you´re actually living it. My friend´s dad used to say that there are two sides to every story and you should hear both before making a judgement and if we are bf´s with anyone, we tend to believe what they tell us and I´m not saying that is wrong but they are seeing the situation from their perspective and it may be different from the perspective of the other person involved. I am sure that the reasons for their separation if you say they were very much in love must be something much more complicated and maybe one or both of them has changed...relationships do change and so do people. 

Only thing you can do is be there for your friend and support in whatever way he needs you. And I think we sometimes do ask people if they´re OK when we know they´re not because we think they might tell us the real problem they have cos maybe we don´t understand fully what we´ve done...

You´re doing what you should do Jennifer being a good friend and giving him something else to focus on. Hope he pulls through but it is such a shame.


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## kmaben

Is it the cold feet, the no coffee, or a culmination of both that stop the brain from working? Does the coffee warm the feet and get the circulation going to make your thinking process go faster? Anywho

As to your packing problems just swing by my place and borrow what you need. Have dog crates, an x-pen, nic grids, litter pans out the ass end, plenty of dishes, probably enough hay for a couple of days.
Any toys you wanted to bring (bun wise) cant take up too much space then you have room for all the glider stuff. There may even be some toys the buns aren't using at the moment. Some things they flat refuse to play with and are just lying around. As long as you didn't take anything out of Shya's pen. Daddy would have a thing or two to say but eh, mi casa es su casa. My parents and Omar are use to people coming through. Just expect chaos and you wont be disappointed.

So sad I wont be there to play with the phone blocker. That would be kidney bursting hilarious. How you could keep a straight face is beyond me. If you do go to that petstore just ream the hell out of them. I mean tear them a new bum hole. Those jerk offs deserve it for how they treat animals both land living and marine. Just dont come back with any hamsters. Although I am thinking about another campbells when I get back. No I'm not. 

Anywho dont get arrested! Crocs is having a 70% sale?! What!


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## whitelop

Kaley, it was an accumulation of both the cold feet and little coffee that caused my brain to malfunction. Its like I can't think about anything but my feet being cold and how little coffee I've had, so things don't come out right. Makes no sense.


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## Imbrium

_Excuse the following rant - it's hardly the ideal way to bring my blog back to life, but I need to vent a little and I figure this is the safest option since people presumably won't bother reading my blog if they don't actually like me ._

Sheesh... what a lovely "welcome back to RO" PM to find in my inbox >.> (from a member who joined shortly before I resurfaced)



> I'm leaving this site because of you. You're everywhere I turn on this board. No one can say anything without you having to add your bit. You're like a 'know it all stalker' here.


 As an added touch, the message title was accompanied by a big red thumbs-down emoticon.
I get it, you think I suck. Guess what? _That feeling just became mutual_ >.>

Oh, and I love the complete lack of both details and *constructive* criticism - blanket accusations are always welcomed and helpful feedback!

I attempted to send this response:


> Is there something wrong with doing my best to help? It's not like I go around telling everyone else they're wrong or trying to shove my opinions down peoples' throats - I'm quick to agree to disagree in the majority of cases and unless I've got a lot of research to back what I'm recommending, I phrase things as simply being my opinion or my thoughts on something. I know I can be overly-chatty at times, but that's just my personality - I talk a lot and I've been spending a lot of time on RO lately. No one else has ever complained about it so I assume if I bother anyone, they simply choose to ignore me.
> 
> If your goal here is to make me feel guilty for genuinely trying to help people, it's not going to succeed. Why? Because it's silly to leave a community you otherwise like because one person's posts rub you the wrong way when you could simply disregard that person's posts instead. After all, it's not like I've been going around personally addressing or criticizing you.
> 
> _[There was a little bit more to the message, as I had thought of a single potential misunderstanding which I attempted to politely explain - if my post was misinterpreted as being at all directed towards theirs, it would've been because I left the thread open for quite a while and then posted without refreshing it first (meaning I didn't even see their post before submitting mine). I've omitted that bit, as the specifics it gave would defeat the point of removing the PM author's name from their quoted message - just because I need to vent a bit doesn't mean I should call the person out by name publicly.]_


...only to find that I'd been placed on ignore.

Since when is it a crime to be chatty??

I rarely disagree with people and when I do - especially if it's on a public forum - I strive to have facts that support my side and to disagree as diplomatically as possible. I may not always succeed but if I have something very snarky to say, I'll at least say it privately. I never try to instigate arguments on the forum - if I rub someone the wrong way with a post, it certainly wasn't deliberate. I would *never* make personal attacks on anyone no matter how much I disagree with them. I do my absolute best to get along with everyone but I completely understand that not everyone will get along with me... and if I know I bother someone, I'll even try to avoid posting anywhere that could strike up a conflict with them - I'd rather keep my mouth shut than start drama on the forums because god knows no one else wants to get dragged into that.

I also spend a lot of time going out of my way to help, frequently doing extra research just to make sure I'm giving the best answers I possibly can... simply because I love bunnies and truly want to help other bunny slaves by sharing any knowledge and experience I've gained in my almost year and a half with Nala and Gaz. I'm always open to learning new things and willing to consider evidence that suggests I'm wrong about something. I strive not to phrase my posts as absolutes (unless I specifically state the "absolute" as being my own _personal_ opinion or I have research to back it up and know that the information I'm providing is widely accepted/very unlikely to be contested), leaving room for opinions that disagree with mine.

As much as I feel I'm entitled to my own opinions, I feel equally strongly that everyone else is entitled to theirs. On occasion, I even try to help two dissenting opinions understand each other better - in this thread, for example (from the linked post to the bottom of that page), I saw a potential rift forming between breeders/pet owners and attempted to explain my take on why the two groups do certain things VERY differently and why those differences *don't* equate to different qualities of care. The whole breeders vs "pet people" issue can get pretty volatile around here - I honestly think a lot of it comes down to people not realizing that the hay on their own side of the fence isn't always better, it's just a different cut ... so, I made an attempt to diffuse things by trying to mediate. While I didn't do a perfect job, I felt like I helped at least a little bit to derail the potential drama by attempting to look at things from both sides.

Yet, despite all that, I'm apparently offending someone simply by being very active and chatty on the forums. Odd, since I always thought that chatting was the main purpose of forums.

~~~~~

I would NEVER send someone a PM like the one I got tonight, as I was raised to believe it's rude to criticize and judge someone's personality so harshly (especially since it's not something one can just magically change about themselves even if they want to).

While we're at it, I think it's unreasonable and just plain asinine to inform someone (who hasn't deliberately provoked you, no less) that they're a massive problem while simultaneously denying them any opportunity to try to work things out (by putting them on ignore even as you send them a message).

That PM is tantamount to saying "By simply being yourself, you ruin this *entire* forum for me, so I'm going to throw a temper-tantrum at you and then stomp off like a little kid." Wouldn't it make far more sense to use a _tactful_ approach and at least attempt to come to an understanding of sorts with the other person that makes it possible for the two of you to coexist peacefully on the same online forum?

Is it wrong of me to think that the person in question needs to get over themselves and learn to disregard my posts if they dislike me so **** much instead of blaming me for ruining the forum and then stomping off? *After all, just because I talk too much sometimes doesn't mean anyone else is obligated to actually listen!*

/rant... *sigh*


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## JBun

Well, I for one am GLAD you're back!!!

It's nice hearing from you and how your critters are doing, not to mention having one more person to help answer people's questions is also great. I always find your opinions/answers helpful and informative, and I'm sure the people who's questions you've answered are very grateful for your insight as well. Unfortunately sometimes people can just be rude and there's not a whole lot you can do about it. I'm sorry this is how you seemed to be welcomed back. But just remember there are many more of us around here that are happy to hear from you and your opinion on things.

And now you've had your chance to rant and let if off your chest..... We need pics of the girls


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## Imbrium

Oh, I know I was totally exaggerating about it being "my welcome back," lol - I've been thanked for my help more than enough to make up for one rude comment (to be fair, even helping a single bunny would be more than enough). I just find it utterly ridiculous to be so offended by someone being chatty on a forum!

I do give my 2c a lot, but an awful lot of the time I'm mostly just agreeing with someone else to back them up - hearing something from one person is good, but having multiple people agree is even better (especially if you're new to the forums and don't know who all is considered to be "the reliable sources" on a given topic)! I figure people are more likely to listen with a little repetition, plus sometimes the second person thinks of that one important thing that the first one forgot - for example, you and I are always affirming and adding to each others' posts .


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## Chrisdoc

I haven´t been on here for over a week. Been away in the UK, computer conked out and can´t get it to connect to the WIFI and just come on here and see your name and you know, I was so happy to see you back. You´ve always been full of info and so helpful. If one person doesn´t like how you do things, it´s entirely their problem and it does seem a bit infantile to leave the forum instead of just not looking at your posts. I think different opinions are great as long as we treat all of them with the respect they deserve. Hope all your babies are doing fine, I saw somewhere that you now have four sugar gliders....wow. Hope Nala and Gaz are thriving as well. I for one am very happy to see you back here. :missyou


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## Aubrisita

As a new member and a new bunny mommy, I enjoy reading your posts and I am glad that there are knowledgeable and responsible people here to give advice. So thank you for being chatty. I know Stache appreciates it because it helps him to stay healthy.


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## Tauntz

I too am glad you are back & have missed your posts! You are one of the people that responded to my posts when I first joined with my two does, Faith & Hope. When looking for advice on a forum, I look for experience (number of posts & length of membership) as well as more people agreeing with the response. Your posts have always been very helpful, I've learned allot from your posts to be a better bunny mom.

Please don't let anyone's "personal" opinion of you or your posts bother you. You are a very beneficial member to RO. People who feel like other people should leave or do whatever they think, needs to get off of themselves, my personal opinion. Welcome back & thank you for all the good advice that you have provided me & my bunny girls! Bunny hugs to you & your furry family!


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## Imbrium

Thanks for all the support, guys - it always makes me really happy to know I've helped! I'm honestly not all that bothered by the message; I just needed to rant it out once so that I could be done with it, hehe. Unreasonable people irk me!

Heck, the #1 reason I'm so chatty and active here (when I'm not AWOL, anyway) is because not so long ago, *I* was the newbie bunny owner with lots of questions and the great people here on RO took the time to give me lots of helpful advice... so I stuck around to "pay it forward" . We're a _community_ here - some of us do more of the learning and some do more of the teaching but *all* of us, from the newest to the most veteran bunny owners, have something to offer and something left to learn.



Chrisdoc said:


> I saw somewhere that you now have four sugar gliders....wow. Hope Nala and Gaz are thriving as well.



Naughty little naughties, every freaking one of them! I'll see about getting some pics of all our naughties posted in the next day or two... photobucket's been disagreeable (it and the forum don't seem to get along), so I have to use tinypic to get pictures to not be tiny. Unfortunately, most of my pics are on a flash drive which my computer readily admits is filled up but doesn't want to retrieve stuff from, meaning I've gotta find what I want in photobucket, download it to my comp, then re-upload it to tinypic *grumble*.

Nala, Gaz and I have just discovered that cherry-infused craisins are vastly superior to the pomegranate-infused craisins we once thought were the epitome of good bunny treats. The girls positively FIEND for the cherry-infused ones!


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## Sophie's Humble Servant

As one chatty person to another, you're all good in my book. So what if you have lots of input? At least it's helpful! What's not helpful is that person sending hateful, negative comments to you! Those kind of things make people leave the forum, please don't, as you've a lot of valuable info to share!


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## selbert

Well how RUDE! I'm a newbie to this site and I've found all your comments incredibly helpful and caring. Though I'm a newbie I have tended to stick my nose right in! Everyone likes to! 

Plus I do have to admire the changing pictures in your avatar, if someone doesn't like what you say: at least you make the page look pretty!

Anyway, chat away! I'm enjoying it


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## Imbrium

Sophie's Humble Servant said:


> Those kind of things make people leave the forum, please don't, as you've a lot of valuable info to share!



As if you people could EVER get rid of me so easily!!  I may wander off, but I always come back.

@ selbert - I love the rotating avatars, too, and a few others on this site have one! It's one of the many things I've learned from others on RO and pretty easy to do (you can download a trial version of the necessary software for FREE). Here's the thread on how to do it:
http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=26593&forum_id=66


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## aozora

Wow... I'm still pretty floored that anyone would take the time to send a nasty PM like that. I understand that not everyone can always get along even if we're gathering together under one forum out of a mutual love for the same thing, but if one particular member really pisses you off that much... Why not just leave the site without the pointed and uncalled for PM? 

Like the others have said, I'm pretty new here too so I don't know you from long ago, but I really appreciate all your replies around RO! Sometimes I check out threads completely unrelated to anything that might concern Mocha just to see what you (and JBun too) have to say because you're always full of helpful information and links. Thank you for coming back and I hope she didn't put you off from continuing being your usual self on the forum!


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## Imbrium

Yeah, it was absolutely wonderful when JBun joined! I make a point of getting to health-related threads (particularly ones that seem urgent) ASAP when I'm online, but of course I'm not always online. Not only is Jenny often around to help when I'm not, she's also knowledgeable about a number of health issues that I know very little about. Usually if I admit to being stumped or only having very limited information to offer, she's the first one to come along and pick up where I left off.

Also, we can both probably rattle off GI-stasis symptoms, at-home remedies and warnings that it's time to get to the vet even in our sleep (and we both really prioritize threads that sound like potential stasis cases). GI stasis seems to be the most common serious ailment in bunnies, probably because it has so many possible causes and can be a symptom of so many other issues - having multiple people who are quick to give thorough advice whenever a "my bunny isn't eating/pooping" thread pops up is a potential life-saver. I'm always relieved when I log in very late at night/early in the morning to see an hours-old thread with a potential stasis case and find that JBun has already doled out advice in a timely fashion - not reading how serious stasis can be and what should be done for it until the next morning could end very badly for a bunny!

It's great that you've started checking out threads even when they don't seem relevant to you - that's how I got started! I read the advice being given for various ailments and issues, paying extra attention when I saw the same advice come up repeatedly/through different sources for a certain problem, until I got to the point where I was able to start giving it out myself when the "usual" responders weren't online. I eventually got into doing extra research on my own as well, but it all started with snooping around the forums


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## aozora

I'm already starting to notice a lot of the same issues popping up, actually! I doubt I'll ever become as knowledgeable (or if I do it's going to take a looong time) but I always enjoy seeing all the detailed explanations you guys give. I'm sure I'll have more experience as time goes on (since I've only had Mocha since April) but hopefully I won't have to take him to the vet for anything serious for a long time yet! *knocks on wood*


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## Imbrium

The other thing that really got me expanding my bunny knowledge was scouring the "pets - other" section of Yahoo Answers for bunny questions, as they tend to slip by unnoticed or get godawful answers if one of the few bunny-savvy answerers doesn't spot it. I also used it as a way to point people towards RO for future questions - I found this forum because someone recommended it on YA (wasn't my question, but rather a random one I was reading answers to). If someone's asking on Yahoo Answers, they're almost certainly in need of a good bunny forum


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## Imbrium

It's not "pictures" per se, but the girls and I made an "educational video" this morning... though to hear them tell it, it was forced labor and animal abuse - they claim to have not been bribed with an appropriate number of craisins. I happen to think that considering no bunnies were harmed in the making of the video and one human was most definitely bitten, they should consider themselves lucky they got craisins at all. Yes, bitten. That naughty, naughty Gazzles nipped me at the very end! She claims she was only trying to help by giving me a real life example of someone disciplining a bunny for biting by pressing their head down like a momma bunny would do to a kit. It's plausible, and yet I don't believe her >.>


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## aozora

Imbrium said:


> The other thing that really got me expanding my bunny knowledge was scouring the "pets - other" section of Yahoo Answers for bunny questions, as they tend to slip by unnoticed or get godawful answers if one of the few bunny-savvy answerers doesn't spot it. I also used it as a way to point people towards RO for future questions - I found this forum because someone recommended it on YA (wasn't my question, but rather a random one I was reading answers to). If someone's asking on Yahoo Answers, they're almost certainly in need of a good bunny forum



Oh man, Yahoo Answers... I learned very very early on not to trust 95% of answers from that place because most replies are either purposely awful (ie. lame attempts at trolling) or genuinely wrong. I found RO through Google because a lot of the questions I had - and typed into Google - would bring up old threads from this forum! It took me ages to finally sign up for an account of my own, but am I ever glad I did  It's great to find like-minded people here who actually understand what a bunny lady I've become ever since Mocha came into my life!


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## Imbrium

Yeah, it can be an iffy place, indeed - hence why I hung out on there for quite a while and tried to lure people away to RO while giving them well-supported answers (there's a reason I've got a crapton of bunny links in a notepad file so they're easy to copy/paste!). For the bunnies' sakes, I felt compelled to steer people towards a far better alternative!


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## HolyHandGrenade

I'm so happy to see your thread pop up in my notifications again! I've missed you lots! Sorry about the idiotic PM. I struggle on a daily basis to let crap like that slide off my back, but there's always one or two that bother me a lot. I need to get out of retail. Or off Earth.

And now I'm going to be that person who posts pics of their own bunnies in someone else's thread that someone out there might tweak out about, but I don't care. Monty says hi! (Sorry it's upside down)

~ Holy Hand Grenade, that's a huge bunny!


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## PaGal

I'm glad as well to see you back. I have been wondering how things had been going. Glad to see everyone is doing well. Sorry about the PM you got. Unfortunately those types are everywhere in life.

I wanted to thank you for the "how to pick up a bunny" video. I started to watch it but everyone kept interrupting but I will get back to it. I'm looking forward to seeing the rest. 

I am so glad you and Jbunn are around to offer advice on ailments. I read those posts all of the time but am afraid to offer even the advice I have heard from ya'll a hundred times just in case I mix it up somehow. I do now feel comfortable offering litter training advice.Ha!


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## Chrisdoc

Advice is always welcome and you and Jenny are the ones who always get it spot on. I have also started quoting you both if I dare to chip in on a post and have even copied some of the links you provide, you are the gurus of the RO forum :wink


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## selbert

Oooh thank you for the avatar info! Time to get creative! Now the hard part: going through pictures and finding a favourite!


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## Imbrium

HolyHandGrenade said:


> And now I'm going to be that person who posts pics of their own bunnies in someone else's thread that someone out there might tweak out about, but I don't care. Monty says hi! (Sorry it's upside down)



Monty pics (and any other bunn pics) are always authorized! Nala and Gaz are spoiled and doted on plenty, they can suck it up and deal with other bunnies having their pictures in my blog sometimes because god **** it, all the other bunnies in the world are super-cute too!



selbert said:


> Oooh thank you for the avatar info! Time to get creative! Now the hard part: going through pictures and finding a favourite!


 
Downsize 'em to be no more than 100 pixels in either direction and you can easily cram at least 5-6 in there 



PaGal said:


> I am so glad you and Jbunn are around to offer advice on ailments. I read those posts all of the time but am afraid to offer even the advice I have heard from ya'll a hundred times just in case I mix it up somehow. I do now feel comfortable offering litter training advice.Ha!



If we don't seem to be around, I recommend offering what you can and just hedging your advice with something like "If I remember correctly you should [_______], but I'm not 100% sure" and mentioning that someone else ought to be around soon who can cover anything you might've missed. That way, they get some help more quickly than they would otherwise but they also know not to take your advice as gospel when you feel like you might be incorrect about something.

In my opinion, it's especially good to do that if the asker's post count is extremely low (because first impressions matter), if the issue is urgent and/or if the asker seems really worried/stressed - in those situations, acknowledging the post and offering whatever help you can often makes a huge difference from the poster's point of view! Feeling like you're not alone when your bunny is sick or injured definitely helps - even if you can't provide answers, you can provide moral support .

Also, if someone admits that they're freaking out or on the verge of it, you can help reassure them, remind them to stay calm and if you have time, help them search RO/google for anything they can be doing for their rabbit until a more knowledgeable source of answers arrives. I do this pretty often to this day - while I'm great at potential stasis cases, my knowledge ranges from lacking to virtually non-existent on numerous medical issues (including some pretty serious ones)... but I'm pretty good at preventing people from freaking out in a crisis situation with a "let's figure stuff out together one step at a time while we wait for help to arrive" approach. Someone inevitably comes along to cover anything I've missed, correct anything I hedged on and turned out to be wrong about, etc. and in the meantime, the worried owner hasn't been left wondering when or even if their thread will get attention.

Heck, the whole reason I know SO much about kit-related stuff despite never having bred rabbits is because, for obvious reasons, people get really worried and stressed if they've got an unexpected litter they don't know how to care for or if they're newer to breeding and experiencing problems (like mom rejecting/not feeding) - sometimes it can take a little while for one of the breeders on RO to show up, so I learned how to answer the most common/most urgent questions.

The more you offer tentative answers, the more you'll start to remember well enough to start being confident about!


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## Imbrium

I don't know what the rest of you have done with your day, but unless you've cured cancer or solved world hunger, I bet I have you beat. I have engineered (ie ghetto-rigged) my greatest cat thwartation device to date!

Jay and I were having to step over a **** 2' high baby gate every time we wanted in the kitchen even after I motherf*cker-proofed the trash can with my first cat thwartation device (of the month, anyway) because he'd still stake out that trash can... and sleep on the dishwasher door, go out of his way to trip you when you tried to do anything in the room, shove his face in the fridge every time it opened and constantly give you looks like "You know you're gonna share that food with me >.>". Fine. Whatever. At least it was better than nearly busting my ass every time I turned around and often hurting myself/stubbing a toe or something in the process because there was a ginormous cat trying to kill me... and it meant that doing the **** dishes, cleaning, cooking, etc. wasn't more obnoxious than it had to be.

Only one problem... the kitten thought that barricade was only for Roo and that she was totally authorized to jump over it at any time.

I came home from Home Depot last night (we always enter/exit through the side door, located in the tiny-ass kitchen) and there she was, staring me right in the eyes as she sat on the wrong side of the gate. I screamed until she got the hint that she didn't belong.

I go back to the car to unload more stuff, come back in the side door and there she is, lurking in the kitchen on the wrong side of the gate AGAIN. I screamed until she left, AGAIN. I made like three more trips to the car and EVERY **** TIME I CAME BACK INSIDE, we had to go through the lurking and the screaming yet again.

I once tried to make a half-height screen door for our bedroom (3' tall), but it didn't last long before it got broken and half ripped off the hinges by a kitten vaulting over it whenever she **** well pleased... so this time, I went all-out.

No more stepping over the gate, no more cats in the kitchen... but Roo can still see (and be taunted by) that trash can he can no longer knock over - I built a wood-framed screen door that's a bit over 5' tall, latches securely and can only move one direction... installed in a doorway that was not at all designed to have a door. They do NOT like my newest cat thwartation device. We, on the other hand, absolutely love it!

I'll take a pic later, once I'm not embarrassed of the background view (among other things, there's dirty laundry gathered up in the kitchen which hasn't gotten done yet because I was busy playing with power tools) .

On a side note, is it just me, or is it patently stupid that in order to engage the safety mechanism on my staple gun, I have to first discharge it?


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## JBun

Or you could just put the bunnies in the kitchen. That would keep your cats out 

With my staple gun I'm always accidentally hitting the safety with my hand and engaging it when I don't want to. Yours does seem to have an odd design flaw.


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## lovelops

As a newbie to the site I've found all your post informative and highly informational. I enjoy reading them... I honestly do and shared some of them with my husband. if I have offended anyone on the site I have not meant to at all... it was never my intention. 

I've enjoyed your video and loved your lop in the box just scratching away!!!
I loved that!!! 

I thought the intention of the site was for individuals with rabbits to chat and be chatty... oh well....


:thankyou:


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## Imbrium

JBun said:


> Or you could just put the bunnies in the kitchen. That would keep your cats out
> 
> With my staple gun I'm always accidentally hitting the safety with my hand and engaging it when I don't want to. Yours does seem to have an odd design flaw.



Uh, no thanks . The kitchen is freaking tiny, there's a lot of trouble a bunny could cause in there and that's where the primary door to the apartment is (we never use the front door). Also, Nala likes to try to trip me almost as much as Roo does. The baby gate we used until I made the new cat thwartation device was actually purchased primarily to keep the bunnies out of the kitchen (when they were briefly free-roamed before proving themselves unworthy of that privilege), lol.

I never hit the safety with my hand but when using the stapler horizontally, the force of firing (or attempting to fire) it causes the safety to pop up and either lock the stapler after it staples or get in the way, preventing it from firing properly AND causing it to eject a loose staple. Fortunately, that can be avoided by temporarily removing the safety mechanism.

Anyway, my newest cat thwartation device was put to the ultimate test today - I made tuna casserole. There were two woefully unhappy cats on the correct side (by MY definition) of the makeshift door. I did give them each a nearly-empty tuna can, but they were right back to trying to get on my nuts about the casserole as soon as the cans were licked clean.

The one flaw with the thwartation device is that it offers a human carrying a plate of casserole no protection during the long and arduous walk from the kitchen to the bedroom. I need to invent some sort of anti-cat force-field .


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## Aubrisita

Lol, when you do can you please share? I could use it against Tonks and Ollie.


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## Imbrium

If I pull that off, I'm gonna patent it and make millions, lol... I'll share with RO folks for free, though .

The closest we've come is that Jay figured out a sound he can make that really annoys the crap out of cats - it doesn't work as a deterrent but is a great way to inflict collateral irritation.


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## Aubrisita

Tonks is deaf so she is pretty much unstoppable. She even loves the vacuum! Sounds would totally work with Ollie however. Right now I use a water bottle. Tonks spends half her life soaking wet.


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## qtipthebun

I love that you're back. You acquired a cat??


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## Imbrium

Jay came with a 16 lb, 15 year old motherf*cker and a completely psychotic kitten. They drive us absolutely crazy - they're as naughty as the bunnies but have much more opportunity to instigate us since they're free-range, lol. Daily life is fraught with stubborn, obstinate obstacles and it's a never-ending battle of wills (and power tools); the humans vs the naughties. I make frequent trips to Home Depot for supplies in order to constantly improve the "thwartation" technologies available to us - ingenuity is the only effective way to counteract naughtiness!

We LOVE our big family no matter how insane they make us, though! We've got two cats, two bunnies and four gliders... plus we're anticipating the periodic arrival of adorable 4-legged babies starting in late spring/early summer (from Lemmy and Abigail, my newly-formed breeding pair of gliders). I'll try to get pictures posted of all eight of our naughties sometime in the next couple days!

It's been a long day and I just don't have the energy to post about it all tonight... but let's just say that, yet again, I've been proven correct in my assertion that the polarity of Nala's moral compass is reversed, causing it to always point to naughty. Ironically, today was the day I was able to pick up a recent site-to-store order needed to put together a big-ticket Christmas prezzie for two naughty, naughty bunnies who proved this afternoon that they really don't deserve to get anything but a stocking full of coal and empty craisin bags. If the cats weren't equally naughty, I'd give the bunnies' prezzie to them instead and make them watch the cats play with it! 

Speaking of the cats, I'm glad they can't read calendars and don't actually know when Christmas is, lol... I just don't see me finishing the DIY cat condo/mansion I've been working on in the next five days. Ditto for the gliders, as the glider-room is also a long way from being complete.


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## JBun

I would like to see the look on those adorable fluffy faces, when they open up their empty craisin bags! Haha, that would be a sight


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## Imbrium

Sadly, I doubt they'd give me the satisfaction. I remember "proving" to Jay last summer that the bunnies were smarter than the cats, lol.

The cats always come to the sound of the cat treat bag being crinkled or shook (which is the same style bag as craisins). One day, I crinkled and shook the craisin bag at them... and the cats came running up to me like they thought I had something for them. I mocked them and waved a craisin in front of their noses, asking them if they wanted it (which they did NOT).

Maybe half an hour later, we had the bunnies in our room... Jay crinkled and shook the cat treat bag at them to trick them the way I'd tricked the cats. The bunnies ignored him completely and continued about their business. I laughed, told him my bunnies were too smart for that and handed him the craisin bag. He crinkled and shook the craisins at them and this time they came running up to him RIGHT away. Bunnies *know* when someone is trying to screw with them, and they'll have none of that.


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## Imbrium

Here's the cat thwartation device I built to defend the kitchen:






It's not a full-height door simply because the frame is made of two 1''x2''x8' boards - I cut enough off each one to make the horizontal bars at the top and bottom and that's the height I ended up with. I used a 1''x4''x8' board (cut in half length-wise) from the salvage/70% off pile to make the inside supports (hence why it's white, has purple paint on it randomly and one of the supports is obviously not straight). There's also a handle on the back to make it easy to pull the door closed (you can kind of see the screws in the middle of one of the horizontal supports). The whole thing is screened with window screen stapled to the frame.

It has a secure latch and two little blocks of wood (the other one's at the bottom of the door) to prevent the door from being pushed further in:






I used that latch because I felt obligated to find a purpose for it after deciding I didn't like that kind for glider cages... but it's already on my nerves a bit because it doesn't catch automatically - you have to actually push the door all the way closed - so I might cave and swap it out for a magnetic one.


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## Imbrium

I alluded to Nala being absurdly naughty the other day...

We were going to visit Jay's grandmother in her group home and I decided to bring the bunnies along so she could meet them. I packed them up in the stroller and promptly "abandoned" them for 10 minutes so I could finish gathering stuff up in the bedroom. When I came back, I thought it looked like Nala was just starting to chew at the inside of the stroller. Oh, how wrong I was! She'd actually been chowing down on it for a while, it seems.

I had to come up with a new thwartation device to prevent her from chewing her way to freedom (though I later found a cookie sheet that fits a bit better and doesn't cut into their space as much):






*The face of a naughty, naughty bunny who is not at ALL ashamed of herself and is obviously quite miffed about the thwartation device:*


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## Imbrium

Christmas present was presented...






And snubbed...











Worthless bunnies!!


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## Aubrisita

Lol, I love the double snub! Naughty or not, your two girls are cute.


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## Imbrium

They are as cute as they are naughty!


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## Imbrium

Thinking that someone might be in the mood for a bedtime story, I briefly considered sharing a cautionary true tale with you guys called "_"Barky": When Little Girls Pick Overly Truthful Pet Names_"... but then I realized that the title pretty much says it all.

Man, I hate living in an apartment sometimes.


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## JBun

Awww, pictures of the naughty buns. And showing their best sides, Lol. Nothing like getting the back snub by our spoiled critters  Have they warmed up to their Christmas present yet?

Nice job on the screen door! That's pretty impressive that you made it from scratch. I think having to constantly open and close it would drive me insane though. Have you ever tried those air blast things, to train the cats to stay out? I don't know how well they work, but the tv shows always make them look like they work pretty good.

By the way, I can't but notice how lovely your buns hay is. I'm even tempted to eat it!


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## Imbrium

They're still snubbing the hell out of their dig-pool, the little wenches. I know they go in there when we're not around, though, and we occasionally catch them in it (which they hate).

I almost wonder if they don't know that I originally wanted to get one with a built-in slide but cheaped out at the last minute because I could get a 45'' plain pool for $13 and a 60'' pool with a slide would've been $35+. I think I'm being punished for not springing for a pool with a slide, lol.

The door really isn't too inconvenient and is definitely better than tripping over **** cats all the time, lol. I've never seen the air blast thing, but I can tell you right now that it wouldn't work. Like with naughty bunnies, our cats will NOT be trained by "deterrents" - they're too stubborn. Blocking access is the ONLY way.

And yeah, the Sierra Valley hay is always amazingly fresh! My order from KMS Hayloft arrives today, hopefully the bluegrass and 3rd cut timothy are just as good.


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## Imbrium

My hatred for the Texas DPS knows no bounds. "All driver license offices will close at noon Monday, Dec 23, and will reopen at 8 am Friday, Dec 27."

Thank you so f-ing much, Texas. Now I can't renew my driver's license without either paying for a cab (no way in hell), taking the city bus (no way in hell) or breaking the **** law... all because those motherf*ckers don't want to be open on my birthday even though Christmas is OVER by then. In addition to NEEDING to go on the 26th 'cause it's my 30th birthday, I also really wanted to go that day because I figure no one's gonna go to the DPS the day after Christmas unless they absolutely have to so the lines would be short.

I know I procrastinated my ass off, but I assumed they'd be open on the 26th (and maybe even the 24th) like the post office and most other federal/governmental agencies. But no. In my defense, I didn't take care of it sooner because Jay lost his ID years ago/really needs to get a new one and I've been waiting for him to track down his birth certificate so that we'd only have to go to the **** DPS one time.

I don't see why I have to go all the way over there just to get my f*cking picture taken anyway. I honestly don't look any different now than I did when I got my picture taken for my license at 18 other than a different hair color (and I'm always changing my hair color anyway) and the fact that I was wearing makeup (which was rare then and still is now). I just showed my license to Jay and he agrees that the way I look really hasn't changed in the last 12 years - certainly not enough to warrant having to go in to get a new picture taken.

The only silver lining is that I confirmed that the only proof of ID I need is my current DL - for some reason when I tried to look that up before, I ended up being told that they "may" also want to see my birth certificate and/or social security card (both of which are back in San Antonio).

Oh, and if he can't figure out where his birth certificate is, we've gotta go to the **** county clerk's office before we go to the DPS and stand in line and pay $23 for a new one. Fun day! On the plus side, they're actually open on the 26th, so I don't have to drive there illegally on the 27th (though it may pan out that way if we procrastinate ). Oh, and the county clerk's name is Stan Stanart, lol. His picture makes me laugh for inexplicable reasons.

God damned DPS. "Happy Birthday, come suffer in line for hours!" Screw you, too.

To top it off, I have to deal with my car registration as well, since it expires at the end of this month - I tried to do it online a couple months ago and it appeared to be successful... but then it turns out they didn't see fit to reward me for not procrastinating for once, because I got a notice in the mail that they rejected my renewal. My car is registered to my permanent address in Bexar county and, when they gave me a chance to put in a different address to have my new tags and license plates sent to, I provided the Harris county address where I'm currently living - I'm guessing they didn't like that >.>

Just what I always wanted for Christmas and my birthday - red tape and bureaucracy! *sigh*


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## Imbrium

On a non-rant note, I'm waiting for a call back from the Foster Care Coordinator at the Houston SPCA (I got her voice mail just now but she's supposed to be in the office today, so hopefully she'll call back this afternoon) - I put in an application to foster a bunny and specifically asked if it was possible to get an anti-social bunny (ie one that needs socialization before being put up for adoption), lol.

It's hard to make "how to" videos for new owners dealing with unruly bunnies when all I have is reasonably obliging demo bunnies. I'd like to make some videos showing how an experienced owner deals with a new, uncooperative bunny but I don't want to make a 10-year commitment to another cotton-tailed little naughty. A foster bunny is a short-term commitment, though, and it means I get to help a rabbit in need get ready to find their "forever home" .

Jay doesn't know yet, though... I'm thinking I'll spring it on him kinda last-minute because I know he'd rather I do it that way. If I tell him now, he'll be really upset if it ends up falling through and really impatient if it doesn't. I'd rather tell him maybe a week before-hand (ie when I start rearranging things in order to isolate/quarantine the new bunny in what is currently the glider room). He generally prefers not being told about plans way in advance for some reason, doesn't really like having to make decisions (hence why I'm going to be telling rather than asking), likes being bossed around by women and ADORES fuzz-butts.


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## Tauntz

Happy birthday, Jennifer (Imbrium)! I know two days early but I didn't want to be late or have to stand in line for birthday wishes! lol On the bright side at least it is an actual driver's license! My hair color hasn't changed & I look about the same as I did when I last had my ID made. Unfortunately, my ID has expired & everyone is giving me heck that I need a new one. They won't let you do anything here without a current pic ID! Funny, every crook can get my information or whatever but I can't get my own info without a current ID! I'm disabled as to why it is an ID & not a driver's license. I recently took my cell phone to AT&T to ask about a "new" plan to reduce my cell phone bill & they couldn't talk to me without a current ID! I didn't ask them to make calls on the cell phone, didn't ask them to change or charge anything to my cell phone but they still couldn't give me any information about that plan & if it would save me money without a new ID!!!!! I was so tempted to tell them I want to stop the service (no longer under contract!) & I may do it yet! I only have the cell phone for traveling & emergency use, oh & I do use it for long distance since I don't have a long distance carrier. Sorry didn't mean to highjack your thread but you hit a nerve with all of this legal & government nonsense!


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## Imbrium

AT&T sucks anyway, I vote for kicking them to the curb! I had a boyfriend with AT&T who lived in LA (close enough to have a view of the Hollywood sign) and could SEE an AT&T cell tower from his apartment... yet our calls were constantly getting dropped. Turned out, it was something defective with the design of his phone and instead of recalling the phone model or fixing it for free, they charged him like $100 for some device to fix the problem even though it was THEIR fault. Way to champion that fail boat, AT&T.

I use Cricket... not by choice, mind you - I used to use Pocket, which was basically the same thing except that they didn't dick you around like Cricket does. Unfortunately, Cricket bought them out or whatever (they called it a merger, but it really wasn't). I stay with Cricket because the other cell phone companies will screw you over just as quickly and at least Cricket is cheaper than the competition by a LOT. I've seen AT&T prices, they're godawful.


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## Tauntz

Thanks, Jennifer! Will check out Cricket services in my area. I didn't even touch the highlights of AT&T's horrible screw up & treatment from the beginning of my signup with them! Ugh! I was waiting for my cell phone to die but it DID last longer than my 2 year contract! lol I paid big bucks for the iPhone because it was recommended by the AT&T service rep as the only phone they carried that had the ability to press the one button, say a name or number & the phone dialed it. First, AT&T customer service rep "mistake." Second, gave me a cell phone number that was in the wrong area resulting in a toll charge if I dialed my cell phone number with my home phone!!!!! Third, screwed up the billing; was supposed to be on one billing statement from the beginning but wasn't so had to change it after wasting double postage & two checks with each bill payment! Every time I had to call to try to correct THEIR error, I got treated like I was the bad guy just calling all the time to have something to complain about & in the end they did nothing to correct the problems other than change my billing to a single all-in-one billing statement! I still refuse to do any more business with them than I have to. It was THEIR errors & they knew it & knew that I was on the hook with the 2 year contract so there was nothing I could do but pay. Where I live it is a "dead zone" for all over the air devices. I have no TV as the converter boxes could not pick up but one cruddy station & I refuse to pay big bucks for cable or satellite TV. Cell phone reception is crappy too here. Sorry, last highjack of Nala & Gaz's blog talking about AT&T! Thanks again for the Cricket recommendation, will see if its available in my area.

Merry Christmas to you, Nala, Gaz & all your furry & human family!


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## Imbrium

I imagine pretty much any AT&T customer could rant about their sh*tty cell service and customer service for hours without even repeating themselves, heh. I've heard so many horror stories. While I haven't had dealings with AT&T since before cellphones completely took over, I have a few myself. For example, when I was little, one of their telemarketers tried to get my mom to switch to AT&T long distance. She said no... and they switched her anyway!! Years later (6+), I had a summer job at a telemarketing company when I was 16... begged for an inbound position but none were available and they forced me to try to sell AT&T to small businesses. The chick training me actually tried to teach me to force-switch people who said "no" like there wasn't anything obnoxious or unethical about it!! Suffice it to say, I was back in HR that very day; ended up making calls for the Census instead.

I think Cricket piggy-backs on cell towers from other carriers to some extent, so it's possible you could get the same crappy reception from them that you get from AT&T at probably HALF the cost. Even if you can't, if you're not under contract, I'd run like hell from AT&T. I used to have Sprint and, while I can't say they don't screw you over as well, they're at least a lot more upfront about it


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## Imbrium

Normally I speak (and swear) pretty freely in here, as it's my blog and, by definition, something that no one would ever bother to read read unless they enjoy my ranting and rambling. However, I assume we're all in agreement that no one wants me to ruin Christmas for anyone by provoking drama - after all, that's what family is for and RO is where we come to get away from drama! I also wouldn't want to upset or offend anyone by brazenly crossing a very weird line like I assume no one would ever be bothered by it.

So to that end, I ask that anyone who feels they might be offended by a pseudo-sadistic sense of humor and/or anyone who gets upset by the very concept of "meat rabbits" to *please not read the second half of this post*. _[In case anyone's imagination is about to leap to the most extreme possibilities, let me specify some things: Yes, Nala and Gaz are alive and well. No, I have not eaten rabbit meat (nor will I ever). No, my rabbits have not eaten rabbit meat (nor will they ever).]_

~~~~~

[This is the point at which to stop reading if you were planning to.]

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Anyway, I was shopping for pet stuff online and went to look at the cat food... I've started buying supplemental amounts of canned cat food so that I can dose it with the vitamins/herbal crap I bought for Roo, since he's **** near 16 years old now and I want to keep him in good health (Dusty's getting them too, 'cause why not).

I was a bit surprised to discover "rabbit" flavored cat food (as in they're the main ingredient)... something that I'm sure would bother many rabbit owners; however, it honestly doesn't bother me - I choose to dissociate myself from what the food contents have in common with my living room contents, as that's a slippery slope. If I'm offended by free-range rabbits being used for cat food, then I feel like I should be offended by cat food that has chicken or fish or something in it, too - after all, some people keep those as pets (and they're my meats of choice in my own diet, following bacon). The way I see it, either I'm okay with any type of "prey" animal being used to make cat food or I'm not okay with ANY... and cats can't live off of vegetables, so if I want them to stay alive and healthy, I have no choice but to be okay with feeding them meat.

My first instinct was still to avoid the rabbit-flavored cat food simply because I love the little bunny-wunnies in my living room... but then the pseudo-sadistic sense of humor I mentioned before kicked in, heh. Those poor cats have been bullied and harassed SO much by my ballsy little bunnies - I feel like letting them eat a couple cans of rabbit-flavored cat food might kind of restore the natural order a bit around here, lol.

Gaz will be oblivious, as always, but I suspect if I announce what I'm doing in front of Nala, she might actually pick up on the fact that her own species is being fed to the cats. Perhaps it'll serve as a reminder that bunnies top neither the food chain nor the chain of command in this house, so maybe they should appreciate the fact that the cats are willing to peacefully coexist instead of treating them like abusable playthings. I would NEVER let one of our pets eat another of our pets, but they don't need to know that!

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~~~~~


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## Imbrium

*sigh* My brain fails me today. I took the carton of eggs out of the fridge to make hard boiled eggs... but instead of putting the first egg in the pot of water, I tapped it on the stove like a moron. I blame it on the fact that I'd considered making myself two fried eggs to eat but realized I would still need to boil the rest so they get eaten before they go bad and I didn't want to have to wash an extra skillet.

Whatever. I had been thinking about baking something later today that requires two raw eggs anyway, so I put it back in the carton since I had only cracked the shell and not the membrane. Then I put ALL the other eggs in the water and didn't realize until it was close to boiling that I failed to set aside a second raw egg. I guess I'll be cooking the semi-cracked egg separately after all, which means dirtying either the microwave egg poacher or a little skillet. Bah.

Of course, that's not nearly as bad as earlier when I repeatedly tried to either take the cap off of a sharpie with my teeth or hold the cap with my mouth so I wouldn't set it down and lose it... except I never actually succeeded, because I was wearing a respirator at the time (I was ripping a 4x8 sheet of plywood with a mini circular saw, which = sawdust clouds).


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## Chrisdoc

Jennifer, a very happy birthday for Boxing Day, I hate government offices that do not serve the people who allow them to be there. If you think it´s bad over there, it´s a nightmare sometimes here with their opening hours in the festive season and on holidays, I think they make it up as they go along. But it is a real annoyance when you think something will be open and then they end up being closed. 

I did laugh at your little story about the cat food. I don´t eat rabbit anymore, I´d not be able to look the boys in the face but I do see it in the dog and cat food section and I don´t have a problem with it, I think it would be funny giving it to your cat just to get back at your two little rascals. Nala is just too smart for her own good, I´m sure she´d find some wicked way at paying you and the cat back.


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## lovelops

Hey there
They don't allow you to renew online or in mail? I know here in Maryland and in the past in DC they changed the way people were able to get licenses renewed since DC at that time only had ONE DMV, yes, ONE.. I was born and raised there and only moved to Maryland about 10 years ago... so I remember standing in line at 6am to get my license renewed. 

I'm sure from how strong your post is that they probably don't have an online renewal where you can print out a paper attachment to add to your license that expired until they could send you a new one with the same photo? That is how they do it in Maryland.


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## Imbrium

Nala will "pay me back" whether I deserve it or not, so I may as well have the fun of earning my punishments! That bunny is... there's not even a word for it. Genius IQ (probably even by human standards) with a soul that's way too big for her tiny bunny body and a bit restless to boot.

Like our 15 (nearly 16) year old cat, she possesses the ability to send telepathic messages that bypass language/species barriers. Roo's a charming motherf*cker; he uses his communication skills to assert himself as an equal (he seems to think he's more human than cat), usually by insinuating that he's entitled to his fair share of whatever food we're eating.

Nala, by contrast, is a bunn hell-bent on world domination. She doesn't converse - she gives commands, attempting to assert herself as the alpha over all of us (it's vaguely drill-sergeant-like in tone, if silent thoughts can convey tone). Usually when we catch her commanding Gazzles, it's because Gaz is startled out of her own little world by the abrupt command. When we catch her commanding Dusty (the "kitten"), it's because the command involves telling her to GTFO and Dusty obeys it. With Roo, it's because we see a body-language exchange - a look from her and possibly the slightest of head tilts; a barely perceptible scoff-like movement from him and a dirty look sent in her direction (occasionally accompanied by him sending a message back, which is never anything polite, lol). Because he blows off her commands, it's nearly impossible to even guess at what she's telling him most of the time. She tries to command us as well, though we'd like to think we catch on and deny her the majority of the time. Her commands don't come across to us as words, per se, more like impulses or intangible thoughts. The face of bunny disapproval when we disobey her is priceless. Gazzles can "talk" a bit as well, but only to Nala (not to us or the other animals, as far as we can tell).

I realize all of that may sound completely insane, lol. I probably wouldn't have admitted to any of it if it weren't for Jay - I never said anything about it to him, either; after we'd lived together for a while, he started to see the same things for himself and he's the one who mentioned it first. It feels less insane when you're not the only one thinking they see the bunny displaying telepathic abilities! 

We assert our dominance by scooping her up and getting that little tum of hers regularly, hehe. She always acts like she doesn't want to share that tum, but we can tell she secretly likes the attention as long as she got to make us chase her down for it first.


----------



## Imbrium

lovelops said:


> Hey there
> They don't allow you to renew online or in mail?
> 
> I'm sure from how strong your post is that they probably don't have an online renewal where you can print out a paper attachment to add to your license that expired until they could send you a new one with the same photo? That is how they do it in Maryland.



Texas drivers licenses have to be renewed every six years (well, I think it was annually at 17 and 18, then every 6 years... though you can't get a full-fledged license at 16 any more, I don't think - the laws changed after I was too old to be affected). At 24, I renewed online, printed out a paper/temporary license and they mailed me a new license with the same photo as the previous one.

Unfortunately, every other time you renew (ie every 12 years), they insist on getting a new **** photo of you and it has to be done in person. I won't have to go through this ordeal again until I'm 42, assuming I haven't escaped Texas before then .


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## JBun

Happy Birthday! Merry Christmas!

From reading your description of Nala and her extreme cleverness, I'm starting to think she's really the one in charge there and just lets you human slaves, believe that you are and she isn't. Much easier to make bunny plans when the humans are unsuspecting


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## Aubrisita

Happy birthday!


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## Chrisdoc

Happy Birthday Jennifer. Have a wonderful day :great:


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## aozora

Happy birthday!!


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## lovelops

Imbrium said:


> Texas drivers licenses have to be renewed every six years (well, I think it was annually at 17 and 18, then every 6 years... though you can't get a full-fledged license at 16 any more, I don't think - the laws changed after I was too old to be affected). At 24, I renewed online, printed out a paper/temporary license and they mailed me a new license with the same photo as the previous one.
> 
> Unfortunately, every other time you renew (ie every 12 years), they insist on getting a new **** photo of you and it has to be done in person. I won't have to go through this ordeal again until I'm 42, assuming I haven't escaped Texas before then .



Yeah, MD does the same thing to us. We can only use the same photo two times for two renewals and then when you go to renew the license a third time you have to come in for a new photo which I hate doing. I say keep the old one if it looks good!!!

Well good luck and the time my license expired and I had to go in, I drove anyway. I know that's throwing caution to the wind but the lines here take forever and I hate to subject any friend to the boring task of sitting and waiting in the DMV while I wait to get my license renewed...


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## Imbrium

lovelops said:


> the time my license expired and I had to go in, I drove anyway. I know that's throwing caution to the wind but the lines here take forever and I hate to subject any friend to the boring task of sitting and waiting in the DMV while I wait to get my license renewed...



Pfft, like I was gonna do anything else. I have no problem driving there on an expired license, I just think it's stupid that I have to . I've actually been driving with an expired registration sticker for a full year now, lol. I paid it last December but the new sticker never arrived... they wanted $7 to send me a new one. F- that. I figured if I ever got a ticket, then I'd cough up the $7 for the sticker. Failing that, I'd just wait until I renewed again this year and hope my sticker actually arrived this time.

The back of traffic tickets have all the fines listed if you want to just pay them online/by mail and be done with it but if you're willing to go to court, you can get out of most fines. I got caught with expired tags (inspection and registration) once when they were actually expired - I just paid to get them up-to-date, took the proof to the court place and they dismissed the ticket without charging a fine. All told, I think I paid a whopping $10 more than if I'd done it on time and never gotten the ticket... and that was because the place where you renew your registration charges extra for whatever reason if you've been ticketed for letting it expire and I had to pay $3-4 for parking at the court house.

Besides, I'm good with cops - if I got pulled over for some reason, I'd probably manage to escape with just a warning after explaining that the DPS had been closed since noon on Monday and I was on my way there now to renew my license. Heck, I got pulled over twice in a week not long after moving to Houston, both for a tail light being out, and all I got both times was a warning (the first time was in a rental car that I had while mine was in the shop, the second was in my real car after I got it back - weird coincidence).

Big-city cops are generally easy to deal with, as they've got better things to do than get on your ass about a license that's been expired for all of a day. In Houston, especially, routine traffic stops are mostly just an excuse to sniff around for the bigger stuff - they're after DUI/DWIs, drug dealers/traffickers, active warrants, that sort of thing. If you don't appear to be what they're looking for, they're eager to move on to the next traffic stop.

As long as you're sober, give the appearance that they'd come up empty handed if they searched your car and are polite, respectful and compliant (ie look innocent and don't piss them off) then more often than not, you'll get a warning for anything minor and only get ticketed for major stuff.

When I got pulled over in San Antonio for expired tags, the cop didn't even write me up for not having proof of insurance (I explained that I had forgotten to print out an updated copy the last time I renewed it and did have a long-since expired copy in the glove box but he had no way to know for sure that I wasn't lying, except perhaps an internal BS meter).

When I got pulled over in my real car for the tail light last summer, the cop didn't say sh*t about the registration sticker... and I saw him look at it as he was turning to go back to his car after he'd already run my license and finished giving me a warning about the tail light. He had already decided I wasn't "up to no good" and opted to move on to someone else, I guess.


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## Imbrium

There's a 24'' long box that's rested on one end (so it's 2' tall) sitting across from the toilet in our main bathroom. It's been there for like 4-5 months, even though when I moved it in there, it was only supposed to be there for a day or two - the **** kitten fell in love with it and thought it was there for her; I didn't have the heart to take it away because that room's kind of "her place". (She doesn't like to do her loafing in the living room because she's intimidated by the bunnies, the 2nd bedroom is always closed off because the gliders are in there and she can't seem to stay in our bedroom with us for very long without doing something that gets her thrown out.)

So I go in there and sit down to pee. I look at the "kitten" (Dusty's actually around 14 mos old and weighs over 11 lbs but she still acts like a kitten); she looks at me. Before I know it, she's climbing across the small gap from the box to my lap. I'm like, "no. No. NO." and she keeps coming anyway. Before I know it, she's laying in my lap, rubbing her face against my arm/hand trying to get love... I was pretty much held captive by how pathetic it all was - I couldn't bring myself to shove her off my lap. Surprisingly, I was only stuck there for about five minutes before she got down on her own (this time >.>).

Here's the little demon kitten... being good, for once in her life:







On a side note, those are the best shoes EVER!! Normally, pink would be a deal-breaker... but on those shoes, it's actually *perfect*. It really helps them look like innocent girly sneakers - I doubt anyone would guess that they're actually *steel-toes*! No one would ever see that coming; one minute they'd be starting sh*t and the next, they'd be on the ground wondering what the blinding pain in their shin is all about .

Shoes that turn you into a weapon = badass.


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## Imbrium

Did not get my DL renewed. Thought it would be ok to put it off until the end of the day because it's standard protocol with businesses that operate out of a "storefront" that as long as you get in the door before closing time, you're good (within reason - obviously stores don't want you shopping for an hour past close, hehe). Well, turns out I didn't get through the front door in time. Why? Because there was a f*cking LINE out the door and around the corner of the building. Anyone in line at 5 pm who hadn't gotten through the door yet got told to piss off... and some of them had been waiting half an hour or more! So rude. The line outside the door wasn't even that long anymore at 5 pm, there was no reason not to let us get stuff done >.>.

Anyway, after the stupid wannabe-Texas-Ranger in a freaking cowboy had told me to eat a dick (I'm paraphrasing ), I went back to my car and hoped there was still time to catch the HSPCA foster coordinator before she left for the day. I had a good talk with her and I go in at 2 pm today for an orientation class .

Since I knew I'd to have to explain to Jay where I was going this afternoon, I went ahead and told him on Friday that we were going to be fostering another rabbit at some point. His response was: "Bunions!" (as in "bunny minions," not a foot problem).

I have a feeling it's going to be up to me to make sure we don't end up being the couple equivalent of a "crazy bunny lady" because I suspect he'd take in as many bunnies as I let him . I would've thought Nala and Gaz would be enough to make anyone new to bunnies say "two is enough"... but not Jay! He loves their brand of naughty.


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## Imbrium

On a side note... I want this little guy! Hope I can meet him today when we tour the shelter, hehe.







I also fell in love with this face:






Not bringing the kitty home either, though - Jay and I both agree that a household should never have more cats than people!


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## Chrisdoc

I hate it when places don´t have rules set in place and let people waste their time and then tell you to get lost. I´d have been ready to swing at him. 

That little bunny is so cute, hope you get him, I´m sure he´d be really happy going home with you. Cat is cute too but I agree, if you let them, they´ll take over the world lol.


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## Imbrium

I was NOT planning to get the rabbit. I was planning to pet him if I got the chance and then walk away like I normally do. There were a few rabbits, all of them cute, most of them friendly. This one, though... he just felt meant to be ><

They don't allow bunny dates, but they do allow you to return/exchange a pet you adopt. I wouldn't want to try another bunny if he doesn't work out and if I returned him I wouldn't be able to get a refund... but the adoption fee is only $30 for rabbits anyway and it's a worthy cause. Little brat kind of won my heart when I met him, so I came home to ask Jay and fetch a carrier. I knew Jay would say yes, but it's still nice to ask instead of making a 10 year commitment on someone else's behalf. Jay said he was surprised I hadn't already brought the rabbit home with me . Now it's up to Nala and Gaz whether or not we can keep him, heh.


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## Aubrisita

Good luck, I am keeping my fingers crossed that your girls like their new brother. 

Ps. That is a really cute cat. Good luck with volunteering, when I worked at the SPCA, I brought home 2 cats and 3 guinea pigs. XD


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## Tauntz

Sorry about your being unable to get your driver's license renewed! Your story reminded me of an incident with a freezer & a not-so-near Sears several years ago. Found a chest freezer I liked & price I could afford arrange for a friend to take me to get it. Unfortunately my friend couldn't get there until late in the day but it was before closing time. Salesman asked to help me I told him I was ready to make my sale, showed him the freezer & had my money in hand! He said he would go back to check on it. Waited & waited! Then another "salesman" comes up & tells us we need to leave they are closing the store. I said the salesman has gone to check on the freezer I WAS IN THE PROCESS of purchasing! He tells us we have to leave & come back tomorrow even if we did drive a long distance! I was fuming! I called Sears & they did nothing & I refused to set foot in that store again even if they had what I wanted at a better price! Haven't purchased anything from them since! I'm a woman of my word! Give me good business/service & I will sing your praises but treat me like a dirty piece of chewed gum on the sole of your shoe then expect me to keep my word & never do business with you again & be assured I will share my experience with anyone I can!

I'm so glad you took bunny boy home!!!!! So sorry you couldn't give kitty a home! I could not have resisted that cute little kitty face! That's why I have to stay away from the shelters & pet stores that have animals to sell/adopt. What's the new bunny's name? Forgot to ask in your other thread.

Hope you will soon get your driver's license without any further problems too!


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## Imbrium

He doesn't know what he wants to be named yet... but we all agree that "Thumper" just doesn't suit him (especially considering he didn't thump once today, even with cats staring at him).

So I drove all the way out there with the carrier and they asked for my driver's license... I came up empty-handed after rooting around in my purse, went and checked the car and still couldn't come up with my wallet - meaning I'd somehow managed to leave the **** thing at home.

It was only about 5:20 and they closed at 6 pm; I chose not to take the wallet issue as a bad sign (or the crapton of cop cars I saw on the way home) and went back for it. Got back to the shelter around 5:40; I'd left the carrier there and he was already loaded up and ready to go. I filled out the paperwork and they pulled out the carrier. I looked inside, and he was giving me the butt. "Figures," I commented - it wouldn't be a bunny if it didn't give me the butt, lol.

I pet him a bit and secured his carrier in the car... unfortunately, because of the unanticipated trip back home for my wallet, there wasn't going to be enough time to take him home, get him set up/out of the carrier and get back to a hardware store before it closed and I *really* need to get a bookcase/storage unit made to clear up some space around here to make room for the extra bunny... so the poor guy had to sit in the car while I ran into the store. He waited very patiently as I made an ass of myself in front of the whole parking lot (an inherent part of using a sports car to transport a 4' x 8' sheet of plywood - I keep rope in the car and know exactly how to tie it down so that it's secure, but it still looks like a foolish thing to be doing ).

Finally, we made it home. Cats took turns staring into the carrier and getting yelled at while I was trying to throw together a temporary set-up for the bunny. I should've asked Jay to do it while I was gone, but when I left to get the bunny I hadn't decided yet what I wanted to do with him, heh. Anyway, the bunn made himself right at home and was munching on hay, washing his face, etc. right away. At the moment, he's flopped out between his cardboard box and his litter box looking super cute.

Recycling pictures that I posted in the other thread, heh - memory card ran out of space and I haven't gotten around to finding the other one to put in the camera.


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## Imbrium

On a non-bunny note... I hate stupid parents. I really think you should have to pass some sort of qualification test before you can have kids.

I wandered across a cell phone app that makes annoying noises (was looking for an air horn or foghorn noise to harass the cats with when they were being bad)... someone gave it a 1-star review because they blame the app for their own bad parenting:



> Of all the apps out there my 4 year old had to find this one. And she always thinks its the app to play during long car rides. Most annoying app EVER!



First of all, why does your 4 year old know how to download apps? And why are you using your cell phone as a baby sitter? In my day, kids kept busy on long car rides with toys and coloring books and such. I couldn't help myself, I had to instigate by posting a comment in hopes of shaming her a little:



> Uhh... you realize you could just take the phone away and/or uninstall the app, right? No four year old actually *needs* access to a cell phone and part of being a parent is setting boundaries.



Because seriously, why WOULDN'T you take the phone away if your kid was pissing you off with it? Has she forgotten who's the boss in a parent/child relationship? I hate to imagine what that kid is going to be like as a teenager if she can't even set boundaries for a 4-year-old.


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## Tauntz

If you ask me giving a 4 year old a cell phone is beyond ridiculous! I can see teaching a 4 year old how to dial 911 for help & how to behave on a regular phone but why in the world does a 4 year old need a cell phone. If I had a 4 year old child I would not be letting the child play with my cell phone! They are too expensive & not a toy!


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## Imbrium

I suppose now that I think of it, she can't be the *worst* parent in the world if her 4 year old can read (which I assume she can to some degree if she's downloading apps)... but seriously, teaching a kid how to dial 911 or how to call the home phone or w/e from the cell phone for safety reasons is reasonable; teaching them how to get on the internet and download apps, not so much. Think of all the crap online that's not even remotely suitable for 4-year olds that she could easily find if she's wandering the internet unsupervised .

Anyway, I don't know what this thing is that I've brought home, but I don't think it's a bunny. At least, it doesn't fit what I've been taught is the definition of a bunny.

I came home from the grocery store and the x-pen was as clean as I'd left it (if not cleaner, from him eating some of the stray hay). There's a TON of bunny poop... and it's all in one neat little pile IN THE LITTER BOX! Not one stray poop. On the pine pellet side, too, not even the hay side. I went to pet him and he didn't run just to make it a hassle for me. I put out some freshly-washed green leaf lettuce (I know they get fed greens at the shelter but I'm not sure how much of what greens, so I only gave him a small handful to make sure he tolerates it well) and he went *right* to the bowl and started destroying it! No snubbing, no pretending he doesn't appreciate, no looking at me like "is that the best you've got to offer??"

WTF is this thing?

God, I hope he rubs off on my girls and not the other way around! This bunny's impeccable litter box habits alone are going to spoil me. His previous owners had NO idea how good they had it. What losers. Anyone who can't appreciate a bunny after *choosing* to bring it into their home is no one I'd ever want to meet!

I really hope my girls get along with him, because I don't know that we have space for a permanent bunn who has to be separate and I don't think I could bear to make him go back. I wonder if I could free-range him while leaving the girls in their pen (with the pen lined with cardboard or coroplast or something to prevent fighting through the bars, of course) if they just won't bond. I get the feeling he could actually be trusted to free-range a bunny-proofed apartment without being a total motherf*cker (which my girls have proven they can't)... it's just a matter of whether it would upset Nala to know that another bunny was roaming free while she was stuck in a pen and if it did, whether she'd get over it after a while (I don't think Gaz would care and she might not even notice, but Nala's a completely different story).

The girls are very obviously aware that there's a new bunny in the house - they seem extra curious and even nosy today it instead of being off in their own little bunny world. After I went shopping, Nala ran right up to the door of their x-pen when I approached to give them their lettuce - she doesn't normally do that.

The good news is that they don't appear upset or threatened by it... possibly because I've gone out of my way to not give the new bunny anything without giving them some first. I gave them craisins before bringing the bag to the room to give him some, I gave them pellets (even though it wasn't time for their second serving yet) before giving him pellets and I served their lettuce before bringing him his. Gaz probably doesn't notice or care but I KNOW Nala keeps tabs on stuff like that and would be quick to get offended if she felt like a new bunny were a threat to her craisins .


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## Imbrium

Ok, I stand corrected. He's as naughty as the other bunns! He got a little psychotic around 3:45 in the morning, lol. Over the last two hours, he's settled down and then gotten psychotic again *repeatedly*. I can't blame him for wanting more after getting a taste of space, considering he was crammed in a ridiculously small cage at the animal shelter.

I'm going to see if I can't arrange a bigger run area for him for a bit... perhaps the kitchen if I get that christmas tree to the trash, clean the floor quick and he doesn't insist on tripping me while I'm cooking and cleaning in there.


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## Tauntz

I think you have an alien from another planet disguised as a bunny! What better way to sneak in & take over than disguised as an aloof, sometimes almost loving, adorably cute bunny! lol After realizing he made the mistake of being too perfect as a bunny he now has to correct his mistake with the random psychotic bunny behavior to maintain his cover until all his alien "bunny" friends are in place for the alien "bunny" takeover! lol Okay, still not enough sleep so I'm in my weird funny mood! Darn! I was already to tell him he could move in here if it didn't work out with Nala & Gaz! Especially if he would teach my girls! lol


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## Imbrium

Well, kitchen's a no-go. A) I realized that the kitchen, the shower bathroom (ie the bathtub) and the (full) closets are really the only *truly* neutral territories in the apartment... and b) I was tidying up the kitchen and a freaking roach ambushed me - since that's been a "no pets zone" for a while now, I went right for the can of Raid and doused the crap out of that little f*cker (he was on the floor)... meaning I have to really deep clean that floor (multiple times) before I'll even consider letting any bunnies in there due to Raid's residual effects and my paranoia when it comes to my babies.

He seemed to go to sleep anyway and it's gonna take quite a while to set him up a nice, big area, so I gave up on trying to do a rush job. I'll see if I can get something set up for him by tonight. He's in an area at least twice the size of most pet store cages, so it's not like he's suffering... he's just mildly hyper at times . Besides, you're supposed to leave them in their cage the first 2-3 days anyway so their potty habits don't go to hell, so I don't have to feel *too* mean about the lack of space.


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## Imbrium

Tauntz said:


> Darn! I was already to tell him he could move in here if it didn't work out with Nala & Gaz! Especially if he would teach my girls! lol



Hell, no! He's teaching mine first, darn it! His litter box has tons of poops now, and quite a bit of pee. I've gotta make him a bigger litter box, 'cause this dish pan one is going to need to be changed at least once a day. Or rather, I've gotta make him a bigger space so I can give him a bigger litter box (since I've got another empty bin cage I can convert into a litter box for him).


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## PaGal

Hopefully he just has some pent up energy to burn off. Laverne and Shirley drive me crazy every night making a racket. Hubby sleeps through it but I don't. I was spoiled with Thumper since he settles down for the night when we go to bed. He'll get up to eat or use the litter box but really makes so little noise when doing so.

If all buns were like Thumper I could easily imagine having ten. When he was naughty it was nothing major and you couldn't stay mad at him because he was good and sweet so much of the time.

With the girls it is different. They rarely allow pets and when they do it is only for a moment. You cannot dissuade them from doing bad by any means. They never run out of energy. They make a mess inside and outside of the cage. I covered the floor in thick cardboard to keep them from chewing bare spots into the carpet. They simply got together and dug a spot through the cardboard and then went after the carpet. The carpet is ugly enough as it is without bare or thin spots throughout.


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## Imbrium

I'd like to take a moment to single out some of the poster children for loserdom I've come across here in Houston. There's so much competition, as I live ghetto-adjacent, but a few folks really go above and beyond! The stories are accompanied by so many (mostly incredibly _special_) visual aides that I had to delete a couple emoticons to not go over the 10 image limit (boo!).

~~~~~







1) "East Side Clover Leaf" = dumbest wanna be gang name EVER. Even the Power Puff Girls at least have street cred.

2) Who the f*ck tags the laundry room... and does such a sh*tty job?? That crap is to real graffiti what a toddler's scribble-doodles are to Picasso. Wait, I take that back, I wouldn't want to insult toddlers. I bet Morgan's son could draw circles around whoever took a Dollar Tree marker to the laundry room - AJ's stuff is good enough to put on your fridge, which is more than I can say of the crap pictured above.

FYI, laundry room dipsh*ts, *this* is what legit tagging looks like (and it's not even the GOOD stuff):













3) lrn2geography, yo.






^ If we were any further west, we'd practically be in Katy.

~~~~~

I can't help thinking that the wanna-be tag job in the laundry room is related to a certain Civic that I've mocked the sh*t out of for months. 






Driving a Civic automatically makes you a super-cool street racer even if you have NO driving skills. [Seriously, "dude" (I use that term loosely) has NO driving skills - I could drive circles around him in a sh*tty 1980s station wagon with no power steering that was held together by duct tape. He drives like a 15 year old who just got their learner's permit.]






Nothing says "I'm a super-cool badass" like FAKE bullet holes in your crappy Civic. If you're gonna try THAT freaking hard, at least go to a pawn store and buy a real gun to shoot up your POS car with - it's freaking Texas, guns are borderline mandatory here.






It's not what's under the hood that counts, it's what's on your car's ass. Having a big, flashy-looking spoiler makes your car go faster!

_Also, everyone knows that serious gangstas front for NIKE. True story._

~~~~~

When I first started mocking it, I was only mocking the "bullet holes" and the rear spoiler... then I discovered that the ridiculous Civic was actually a WORK IN PROGRESS that was constantly being "improved"! Just when I didn't think it was possible, it became even MORE mockable with the additions of the barbed wire decals and the NIKE sticker.

Then he *really* decked it out with a symbol of his mad driving skillz:
_(my camera really didn't do the front end damage justice, btw - looks way more spectacular in person)_






~~~~~

Yeah. First time I saw that car, my immediate thought was "whoever drives that seriously needs an ass whooping." I mean, seriously, it *screams* hood rat. Then I saw the "driver" (a pack of four total losers, desperate to be "gangstas") and realized I'd have to recruit a 5 year old to stand in for me in order to make the 1 vs 4 battle a fair fight.

Has anyone ever seen a mobile circle-jerk? Because that's the only way Jay and I can think of to adequately describe the four guys who belong to that ridiculous Civic when we see them walking through the complex. I'm guessing they're in the 18-20ish range, though it looks like their physical development halted at 13-14 'cause the four of them combined don't have a single muscle to flex. I probably couldn't tell them apart if my life depended on it - they're like one entity. They're also the biggest freaking wanna-bes you've ever seen.

The only thing they've got going for them is that they know to shut their asses and pay attention when my RX-8 rolls past blasting hip-hop on a stereo system that wasn't purchased at a dollar store - the undeniable look of extreme jealousy is pretty priceless... wouldn't have thought they'd even recognize a real sports car if it didn't have fake bullet holes on it. They look away in a hurry whenever I look at them, lol - they definitely don't want none .

I forgot to look when I was taking pictures and the car was gone by the time I went back out there to fetch the clothes from the dryer... but I'd bet my bunnies that the Civic is an automatic. Everyone knows automatics smoke standards when it comes to street racing.

~~~~~

I've got one more story of loserdom to share, but it'll have to wait until later as I'm worn out from story-telling and have more **** chores to do. It's gonna be about the spineless bitch who made a half-assed attempt to verbally assault me in the Kroger parking lot to make herself feel better... and how I made sure it didn't pan out the way she'd hoped, lol.


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## Imbrium

PaGal said:


> With the girls it is different. You cannot dissuade them from doing bad by any means. They never run out of energy. They make a mess inside and outside of the cage. I covered the floor in thick cardboard to keep them from chewing bare spots into the carpet. They simply got together and dug a spot through the cardboard and then went after the carpet. The carpet is ugly enough as it is without bare or thin spots throughout.



^ Sounds painfully familiar!


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## lovelops

Imbrium said:


> On a side note... I want this little guy! Hope I can meet him today when we tour the shelter, hehe.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also fell in love with this face:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not bringing the kitty home either, though - Jay and I both agree that a household should never have more cats than people!



Awww. that cat is sooo cute. I'll be surprised if you don't post again next week with that kitty with the new bun bun...


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## Chrisdoc

You have just made my day...I laughed so much at your story about the losers and that car...reminds me of Gibraltar..all the "cool" dudes had one, tinted windows, stereo blasting, losers lol. 

Definitely think your buns rule the roost and the new bun is their new leader...watch out haha.


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## Imbrium

lovelops said:


> Awww. that cat is sooo cute. I'll be surprised if you don't post again next week with that kitty with the new bun bun...



Oh, hell, no. Our rule about "a household should never contain more cats than people" is taken very seriously! I deliberately didn't go meet that cat when I went to the shelter .


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## The Mockingjay

Imbrium said:


> My hatred for the Texas DPS knows no bounds. "All driver license offices will close at noon Monday, Dec 23, and will reopen at 8 am Friday, Dec 27."
> 
> Thank you so f-ing much, Texas. Now I can't renew my driver's license without either paying for a cab (no way in hell), taking the city bus (no way in hell) or breaking the **** law... all because those motherf*ckers don't want to be open on my birthday even though Christmas is OVER by then. In addition to NEEDING to go on the 26th 'cause it's my 30th birthday, I also really wanted to go that day because I figure no one's gonna go to the DPS the day after Christmas unless they absolutely have to so the lines would be short.
> 
> I know I procrastinated my ass off, but I assumed they'd be open on the 26th (and maybe even the 24th) like the post office and most other federal/governmental agencies. But no. In my defense, I didn't take care of it sooner because Jay lost his ID years ago/really needs to get a new one and I've been waiting for him to track down his birth certificate so that we'd only have to go to the **** DPS one time.
> 
> I don't see why I have to go all the way over there just to get my f*cking picture taken anyway. I honestly don't look any different now than I did when I got my picture taken for my license at 18 other than a different hair color (and I'm always changing my hair color anyway) and the fact that I was wearing makeup (which was rare then and still is now). I just showed my license to Jay and he agrees that the way I look really hasn't changed in the last 12 years - certainly not enough to warrant having to go in to get a new picture taken.
> 
> The only silver lining is that I confirmed that the only proof of ID I need is my current DL - for some reason when I tried to look that up before, I ended up being told that they "may" also want to see my birth certificate and/or social security card (both of which are back in San Antonio).
> 
> Oh, and if he can't figure out where his birth certificate is, we've gotta go to the **** county clerk's office before we go to the DPS and stand in line and pay $23 for a new one. Fun day! On the plus side, they're actually open on the 26th, so I don't have to drive there illegally on the 27th (though it may pan out that way if we procrastinate ). Oh, and the county clerk's name is Stan Stanart, lol. His picture makes me laugh for inexplicable reasons.
> 
> God damned DPS. "Happy Birthday, come suffer in line for hours!" Screw you, too.
> 
> To top it off, I have to deal with my car registration as well, since it expires at the end of this month - I tried to do it online a couple months ago and it appeared to be successful... but then it turns out they didn't see fit to reward me for not procrastinating for once, because I got a notice in the mail that they rejected my renewal. My car is registered to my permanent address in Bexar county and, when they gave me a chance to put in a different address to have my new tags and license plates sent to, I provided the Harris county address where I'm currently living - I'm guessing they didn't like that >.>
> 
> Just what I always wanted for Christmas and my birthday - red tape and bureaucracy! *sigh*




Please don't curse. You could say heck or something or put a * in it, at least!


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## Imbrium

On a side note, boys are weird.

Earlier this afternoon, I walked into our room and saw Jay lying in bed with his eyes open. I looked where he was looking and saw the new bunny looking back at him. I asked if he was having a staring contest or communing. He said he wasn't sure yet. I laughed and went back to the kitchen.

About 10 minutes later, I came back into the room, gave the new bunny nose rubs and picked up the empty colander I'd given him lettuce in the night before. Jay informed me, "He's been asking about that lettuce, and he doesn't like it when no one is in the room." I laughed again and fetched some more lettuce, which the bunn is happily destroying. This guy really loves his veggies!


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## Imbrium

The Mockingjay said:


> Please don't curse. You could say heck or something or put a * in it, at least!



Heh... I nearly always do in other parts of the forums (especially non-blog/non-off-topic stuff), but I tend to be a lot more lax about swearing in my blog since I'm used to it only being other adults (many of whom can be swear-happy themselves) that bother reading my ramblings so I only filter things that would otherwise set off the profanity filter.

If the swearing bothers you and you're actually interested in reading this thread, I can try to self-censor the stuff that the filter lets slide the way I would in other parts of the forum, though .


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## Imbrium

Good god! Is this new boy what the rest of you are talking about when you say you have a bunny?? Craziness! He's like a house cat that actually has manners.


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## zombiesue

Noooo I'd rather read it uncensored. You and I are grown ups, and I think even children are used to seeing grown ups get angry once in a while. My opinion is the most important one. Okay maybe not but I hope you listen to me anyway XD


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## zombiesue

Also, here anyway, you get 3 months after your birthday to renew--you aren't breaking the law until then, lol. You might want to double check how long you can continue to drive after it expires.

I also procrastinated. Mine expired in October LOL I just renewed it >>


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## Imbrium

I saw no confirmation of an ongoing underage reader, so let the swearing resume! The world's worst neighbors are at it again and I'm about to swear my ass off. It *needs* to be.

*Fireworks are ILLEGAL inside the city limits, you f*cking morons!... *And while we're at it, *holidays do NOT negate the need for common f*cking courtesy!* At least this time I'm being smarter than I was on Christmas eve - that time, it was random people on the FAR corner of the complex and I took an instigating walk to figure out what the racket was; when I saw what was going on, I gave them a dirty look that I know they saw (or at least felt) even from that far away and they wrapped it up within a few minutes.

This time, I heard a few very sporadic *BANG* sounds that confused the hell out of me - sounded like a rabbit thump, except the volume would've required it to come from a bunny two stories tall like that robot one on ATHF so it clearly wasn't one of my three (totally forgot it's New Year's Eve, lol). When it kept happening and the animals were obviously bothered, I finally got up... I was about to put on shoes to go outside, but I only walked as far as the living room before seeing a glimpse of fireworks around the edge of the closed blinds (it's morons in the courtyard RIGHT outside our living room window).

I went straight back to my desk and called the cops. I wanted to take that instigating walk SO badly to let them know (with just a look and my general "presence") how obnoxious they are and how much I truly, truly hate them... but objectively, that's simply a bad idea unless whatever BS they're spewing isn't enough to call the cops over. Also, I would've had to put on the steel-toe girly sneakers and that reeked of effort.

Why do these people have to celebrate holidays (and Saturdays) so **** noisily?? I'm about to check, but I already know it's 132 and 134 because it's ALWAYS those two apartments. They act like every f*cking wall and window (6' x 6' windows, no less) in these ghetto-ass apartments is completely soundproof and nothing they do in the courtyard ever bothers anyone. Yeah, I don't have two cats, three bunnies and four sugar gliders freaking out over every obnoxious *BANG* or anything. I'm surprised every yippie dog in the complex isn't barking like crazy right now.

I want a fire hose, **** it. ICE cold water. I'd go right for those faces, too. Maybe I should go use our fire extinguisher on them! Ok, maybe not, since HPD is due to arrive any minute now, lol.

Have fun with the cops, motherf*ckers! They should *really* know by now how readily I'll pick up that phone - my tolerance has dropped below zero at this point; I'm ready to call the cops the moment one of their back doors opens.

I used to think I'd never call the cops on people. To be fair, I still wouldn't call to report criminal mischief as long as it wasn't intruding on my day and no one appeared to be in danger. If I can hear your asshattery from the desk in my bedroom, though, you're being extremely f*cking rude and I'm calling the cops. If your asshattery might burn down my apartment, I'm DEFINITELY calling the cops (and eying my steel toes longingly).

~~~~

Yeah, it's 132 and 134. Of course. Multiple children under the age of 5 running amok in the courtyard as their illustrious parents shoot fireworks into the air mere FEET above their heads. Gaz thumps with disapproval. *Way to parent.* Seriously, you people deserve an award for the stellar example you're setting. Those kids are going to grow up to be even more obnoxious than they already are, assuming they actually live to see adulthood with how safety-conscious their douchebag parents are.

Learn some manners, motherf*ckers. If you're going to illegally set off fireworks in a freaking apartment complex (a sh*tty one that would probably catch on fire pretty easily, no less), then at least have the decency to buy QUIET fireworks. Failing that, buy the quiet ones because you have an ounce of common sense, don't want HPD on your ass and god **** know they're going to get called. Of course, if they had a brain cell between them, they'd pack it up and go inside in less time than it would take for the cops to show up instead of still being out there over 20 minutes later.

They finally STFU, presumably because HPD rolled up. On the one hand, it took the cops what felt like forever to get here... on the other hand, I didn't call until 12:03 and I'm sure the previous three minutes involved a constant stream of nearly identical reports - I honestly thought it would take them longer to get here tonight than it did; I guess there aren't an overwhelming number of people who are as stupid as my neighbors. That, or there are but HPD scheduled their officers accordingly. My bet is on HPD being competent rather than people not being stupid - seems MUCH more likely. Thank god the cops are still doing their jobs on major holidays even though everyone else is inconveniencing me.

Sometimes I really wish I had a hidden video camera facing into that courtyard but then again, I'd probably see things I would wish I hadn't.

At least this time I didn't have to wait hours for their bullsh*t to be severe enough and/or continue until late at night enough to warrant calling the cops, so they only killed half an hour of my night (I'll let them off the hook for the additional time required to finish ranting, since the rant part is actually fun). When the motherf*ckery starts at noon, I have to wait until 9 pm before my call is unofficially sanctioned by the apartment complex - there are ENTIRE DAYS that the glider room and living room are rendered uninhabitable by obnoxious dumbf*cks screaming, shrieking and failing to parent out in the courtyard.

When I finally unleash my revenge on those woefully defective human beings and their wretched offspring, *they will RUE THE DAY they first crossed me and every day since...* and I'll leave them with no tangible evidence to press charges with, too, because when I get pissed off enough to take action, I don't do sh*tty hood rat stuff like breaking someone's f*cking car window (like that bitch in 134 who I'm god damned sure owes me $150 for my driver's side window except I can't legally prove it) - I go "Art of War" on peoples' asses with psychological warfare. _It's much more fun and if you do it right, no one can prove to anyone with authority that it was you. _Checkmate, bitches_... _and get your f*cking kids off my lawn until they've learned not to stare into/tap on strangers' windows!


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## PaGal

Sounds like you have some winners there!

I'm out in the country so luckily do not have to deal with the noise right on top of me. I was really surprised how quiet it was here last night. We thought for sure we would hear more gun fire than we did. It doesn't seem to bother the animals much, probably because gun fire occurs so frequently here with the hunters or those sighting their rifles prior to hunting. 

People like your neighbors are one reason we made sure to buy a house in the country. 

As far as your cussing goes, as a parent that does try to keep the kids innocence in tact until somewhat older I do know that no matter how hard we try you cannot possibly avoid them hearing or reading such things. Not without keeping them completely isolated which leads to issues of it's own. 

On the other hand I can and do cuss when the situation warrants it. Who decides what is right and what is wrong? Put random letters together to form words, why is poop OK but **** is not? Who decided that and why?

I do try to set a good example though and luckily although the kids will read along with me here I still read faster than them.


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## Chrisdoc

I hate inconsiderate people and I hate parents who can´t be bothered to parent even more. Inside our complex last night they were also letting off firecrackers and throwing them. Parents are always Ok with these things until someone gets injured which I pray for anytime their kids are doing things they shouldn´t be out of their range of vision. I caught another 4 today just under my balcony, climing from the lower grass area up the wall, wrecking all the climbing plants and then jumping up and down on the tree by the side of the wall to get down. I ended up going out there with my mobile phone and when they saw me and they weren´t sure if I was taking a photo of them, they all headed off. The trouble with the parent of these hooligans is that even if you go and find them and rant at them, it just goes in one ear and out of the other. The terrible thing is their kids will probably turn out to be bigger a...holes than the parent. I am so glad you called the cops, I once did that when someone double parked behind me in town and had actually had the cheek to leave the handbrake off so you could push the car forward and backwards to get out. After I called, I was so scared that the owner of the car was going to get back to the car before the police turned up with the tow truck. He was towed away....I wonder if the 300 or so euros it would have cost him to get it back taught him anything. Jennifer sorry for hijacking in but I sooooo am with you on this.


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## Imbrium

PaGal said:


> As far as your cussing goes, as a parent that does try to keep the kids innocence in tact until somewhat older I do know that no matter how hard we try you cannot possibly avoid them hearing or reading such things. Not without keeping them completely isolated which leads to issues of it's own.



Yeah, all kids are going to learn the "bad" words sooner or later - trying to shelter them completely is futile. Imo, what's important is the context in which they're seen/heard and making sure that kids understand that swearing is something that you can get away with sometimes but many times it's completely inappropriate. My own parents rarely swore that I knew of - perhaps a word here or there that slipped out before they could catch themselves when something bad happened ("oh sh*t!" moments and such); such swears were usually followed by an apology or self-correction. I learned through example that swear words can relieve your anger/frustration a bit... but should only be used privately and are inappropriate in most situations.

I swear like a freaking sailor any time I can get away with it, but I can also turn it on and off like a switch because as a general rule it's inappropriate in public, in semi-formal settings (professional correspondence and such) and around anyone other than friends. While I may not BE a parent, I HAD parents and I see the effects of other peoples' parenting - I honestly think that teaching kids when NOT to swear is more important (and effective) than trying to stop them from ever learning the words at all. That said, it's the parent's job to decide when to allow their kids mild exposure to swearing (through TV shows and other sources) and no one else's... so there's an expectation that other adults watch their mouths when someone else's kid(s) might be around (in other words, if it's not your kid, you have NO business swearing in front of them).

I also think that being able to rant your butt off without uttering a single swear word is an important skill to have (and teach kids) - there are situations in which it's necessary to express strong, negative emotions where using curse words is going to be a disadvantage for you. For example, I can write an angry email to some customer service thing and pretty much go off on them in detail without using a single word you wouldn't want a toddler to hear. Swearing works with ranting about someone/something to a third party but if you're ranting TO/AT the cause of your frustration, they're pretty much guaranteed to tune you out if you get vulgar. When you curse someone out, it makes you come across as irrational and suggests that you're more interested in ranting than in a resolution - very self-defeating!

I can't remember it, but I've heard a saying having to do with swearing... driving me nuts I can't remember... was something that correlated an inability to express yourself without using swear words to ignorance or something like that. It's a good saying .

I love my curse words, but I value my ability to express myself tactfully/without swearing when pissed off even more than I enjoy letting out a string of obscenities to vent. It's amazing how powerful tact and diplomacy can be when you stop to think about it. I couldn't even begin to count the number of times I've been swearing my ass off to myself or a friend about some stupid company's sh*tty whatever, then turned around and approached the company's customer service department with proper manners and gotten the best possible outcome.

Like when Home Depot was dicking me around about my dishwasher installation (lesson learned: "free" installation from HD isn't worth the hassle - it was ridiculous how many different complaints I had regarding the process)... after getting hit by a third delay, I called to complain. I knew **** well that there was nothing customer service could do to make the installation happen sooner, but I also know that CS reps have a "shut people up" slush fund if you find the magic words and I felt I was entitled to some reparations .

CS chick kept saying "nothing I can do"; I kept reiterating my frustrations in different ways trying to find what worked. Never swore, never raised my voice, never talked to her like SHE was my problem - instead, I spoke in a way meant to garner empathy... which usually works, but she apparently wasn't the empathetic sort... finally, in an exasperated tone, I said "I'm about ready to just cancel this whole thing and go buy the same dishwasher from Lowe's." *ding* Magic words uttered, slush fund accessed - suddenly she offered me a $50 Home Depot gift card. I graciously thanked her and returned the favor by shutting up so she could get on with her day.

Or last week, when Amazon Prime was quoting me 3-4 business day delivery times (offers placed Thursday being delivered on Tuesday is NOT "2 day" shipping!). I put in two orders - one before the sun came up and one very late that evening (so arguably counting as Friday) - and both times, had to bitch to customer service. First time, I got upgraded to 1-day shipping for free. Second time, 4 of 5 items got upgraded to arrive on Monday instead of Tuesday (5th was too far into the shipping process, so there was nothing he could do... sadly, it was the only one I actually cared about getting ASAP). The second time, the guy asked near the end how my day was aside from the shipping issues (something I guarantee he wouldn't have bothered with if I'd been treating him like crap)... I said "Pretty good - today's my birthday ." Turns out it was also his son's birthday, lol... and he randomly offered me a free $20 credit as a birthday prezzie!

CS reps have the misfortune of being scapegoats - so many people go off on them because they're pissed off at the company and see the customer service rep as "the company." The thing is, though, that the CS rep is just there for the paycheck - they had nothing to do with whatever decision the company made that ended up pissing you off. People know that, but many of them go off on CS reps anyway because the executives in charge of pissing people off are smart enough to not make it possible for angry customers to reach them.

I suspect people who work in customer service expect angry customers to get in their face about stuff, that way it's a nice surprise if they don't (rather than a disappointment when they do). They tend to be very appreciative when you show some respect and treat them like people instead of a giant bullseye (who wouldn't??), so it's in your best interest to approach them like they're a potential ally rather than a sworn enemy.

I usually go for garnering empathy first, then if that doesn't work I try being tactful yet pushy in a way that makes it clear that I'm not going to STFU and go away until I've been placated... while at the same time, insinuating that I'm willing to entertain "compromise" offers (ie that I'll accept being compensated for my inconvenience in the event my problem is unfixable)... and of course, sometimes you've gotta whip out the money card to twist their arm, since companies often require certain criteria to be met before the CS rep is authorized to offer you something. Company policy is dictated by people who are focused on the bottom line and if those people are any good at their jobs, they know it's more cost-effective to give out a freebie than to lose a customer.

Bottom line, swearing is good for letting off steam in an appropriate setting... but manners, tact and diplomacy will get you everywhere in life .


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## Imbrium

Chrisdoc said:


> I am so glad you called the cops, I once did that when someone double parked behind me in town and had actually had the cheek to leave the handbrake off so you could push the car forward and backwards to get out. After I called, I was so scared that the owner of the car was going to get back to the car before the police turned up with the tow truck. He was towed away....I wonder if the 300 or so euros it would have cost him to get it back taught him anything. Jennifer sorry for hijacking in but I sooooo am with you on this.



Hah! My kind of vengeance . I'm all for delivering some "instant karma" through legitimate, legal channels. The golden rule of life is "Don't be an *sshole to someone who hasn't provoked you." That made me think of a quote Jay loves from the satanic bible, lol - "Ask someone politely to move out of your way... and if they don't, destroy them."

That's pretty close to the approach I use in life... but a more accurate summary is that the way I deal with people I have no particular affinity for is through tit-for-tat game theory (aka "equivalent retaliation"). Basically, I let other people decide how they want me to treat them - approach me in a civil fashion, you'll get civility. Be generous, you'll get generosity back. Be an *sshole, you'll rue the day. Funny thing is, I operated based on tit-for-tat game theory long before I ever knew it was a real thing .

The keys to tit-for-tat game theory are that successful implementation requires you to never hold (or at least never express) a grudge and also, that it's only applicable when there will be multiple rounds (or in RL application, multiple encounters with the other person). Not expressing grudges is extremely tough until you've embraced the larger concept... then it seems ridiculously easy. It's that key that makes it possible to TRAIN people to do as you would want them to do.

Basically, when exercised properly, tit-for-tat game theory *forces* your opponent to either make you happy or suffer consequences - the only choices they have are win/win or lose/lose; whatever they pick for you, they also pick for themselves and vice versa. If someone is an ass to you, then be an ass back... but if the next time you encounter them, they're polite and civil, then YOU have to be polite and civil, showing no sign of any grudge over the previous encounter. 

The toughest part - even moreso than not holding grudges - is breaking the downward spiral that can happen when your opponent repeatedly opts for a negative approach (therefore generating a negative approach from you). The ONLY way to derail that issue is through generosity, referred to as "tit for two tats" - if you feel like things are starting to downward spiral, then you have to break pattern and reward them as though they behaved well even though they were being *ssholes. It can feel self-defeating in the moment to treat someone nicely who's being rude to you, but in the big scheme of things you come out ahead for it because the unexpected positive response throws them off their game and often provokes a positive response from them.

I find it interesting that anyone who's been in a successful long-term relationship knows that the "tit for two tats" is vital to working out domestic disputes... yet it seems like it doesn't occur to most people to do the same thing with strangers even though it's just as successful (albeit often for different reasons). I guess that's because it's natural to *want* to offer that extra generosity (and, in general, the forgiveness necessary for tit-for-tat game theory) to someone you love - in personal relationships, that want doesn't have to be driven by the ulterior motive of wanting to "win" in the big scheme of things the way it does with someone you have no emotional attachment to.

Anyway, with tit-for-tat game theory, most people eventually realize that it's in their own best interests to use a positive approach and will do so for their own benefit even if they don't *really* want to be nice to you .

[WTF? Weird-ass profanity filter! I can say "ass", "asshat" and "hole" and the filter doesn't care... but suddenly I combine "ass" with "hole" and I get *******'d?]


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## JBun

You need to have your own lecture series - 'Common sense approaches to dealing with people who tick you off' by Jennifer  I totally agree, doesn't do you any good to go off on a CS rep when you are trying to get their help, though sometimes you do have to be tactfully insistent about your point. And I like your 'tit for two tats'. It can sometimes reset things when they are trending downwards with someone. It's a bit like the idea of 'killing someone with kindness'. It *so* throws them off that they sometimes don't even know how to react.


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## Chrisdoc

I agree with Jenny, you´d be great at these feel good lectures and your advice is spot on. I laughed about the ass and the hole. We spell it different, for us it´s arsehole so that may get you round it lol. I must use the tit for two tats more and that´s only on family members onder:


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## Imbrium

What can I say, mind games are fun! As impatient as I can be, I'm willing to hold out for the satisfaction of a "check-mate" on someone that pisses me off rather than reflexively retaliating and making the situation worse for everyone.

Another fun one is "giving someone enough rope to hang themselves." I love it when someone's pissing me off in front of other people and I maintain a polite, rational composure while they run around ranting their asses off about me to everyone, oblivious to the fact that they're making themselves look really bad while I'm simultaneously coming off as the good one for keeping my mouth shut and not being a **** drama queen.

Trying to slander someone almost always backfires and going around (very loudly) trying to counteract the slander by making counter-accusations does as well. The best thing to do is keep your mouth shut for the most part, only offer a defense if someone specifically ASKS you for one (rather than volunteering it) and present your defense rationally *without* portraying the other party as "the bad guy" - in other words, "this is my side" rather than "this is why the other person's side is wrong." What's that saying about when you point a finger at someone, there's three fingers pointing back at you? 

The best part is that you don't have to do a **** thing (yay, laziness!), you come out smelling like roses and when all is said and done, your defeated opponent has no one to blame but themselves!


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## lovelops

Imbrium

I'm like you when people piss me off I could cuss like a sailor and TOTALLY agree with you. I live on a half acre 15 minutes outside Washington DC but have more rednecks around me then I did in South Carolina (where my family is originally from)
and every freaking holiday it sounds like a Mexican shoot out around here. Tons of fireworks get shot off and my 4 dogs and 2 bunnies at the time get freaked out... So I understand where you are coming from. Too bad there isn't any decent land for rent there you and the gang could go to and get away from those idiots!

Vanessa


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## PaGal

Well although I can cuss up a storm when provoked I do not cuss at people. I cuss about people and about situations, mostly to hubby. When dealing with a person that does me wrong to their face I am tactful but in a way that lets them know even if only unconsciously that I am not a push over.

When it comes to an issue with a business I am all tact. Like you I realize customer service personnel are just there to do their job. With them I do not have a problem. I have worked in that past dealing with customers and know what jerks they can be. Although I'm not a big fan of people in general I am nice and polite to everyone unless and until they give me reason not to be.

We also know the idea of giving someone else enough rope to hang themselves as you say. That has come into play a lot in the past several years on a regular basis. Wish we didn't have to deal with any of it but since we can't change the situation we do deal with it in the best way possible. We have dealt with unbelievable slander thrown out about us. We always remained ourselves through it and over time people realized the lies. I now have the experience that I can remain calm and poised no matter how angry or upset I may be. 

Tit for Tat can come in handy as long as you are not dealing with someone that will choose to do the wrong thing to you even if it means a negative outcome for them. 

Thank goodness that although we still have to deal with a few people we would rather not at least now we only have four neighbors. Good neighbors that if an issue arose we could just bring it to their attention and the problem would be resolved. But we also all help each other mout in whichever way we can.


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## Imbrium

I keep reflexively "disciplining" this new bunny for overzealous grooming in a very species-inappropriate way. Sometimes he gets so into licking me that he scrapes his teeth on me or even nips me (usually on my neck, which hurts!)... I've never had this problem with a bunny before, but it's really common with sugar gliders - so much so that it's become a reflex for me to make a sharp "tssst!" noise (glider-speak for "knock it the heck off!") when I get a little love bite, because that's how you teach a glider that they're grooming you too roughly and need to be less bitey about it. Oddly enough, it seems to be fairly effective on the bunny - I guess the noise startles him a little .


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## JBun

Hey, whatever works! As long as he gets the point and knocks of grooming with those sharp teeth. They don't quite seem to get that we don't have any fur protecting us


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## Chrisdoc

Snowy used to do that, he loved digging at my jumper and bit my boobs a few times and that hurts. I used to squeal and that used to put him off. He does sound like a little cutie anyway, seems like he´s settling in well :bunny24


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## Imbrium

I can top that - I had Tabby and Lemmy in my bra while I was driving (something I normally wouldn't do because of airbag paranoia, but every once in a while I'll let gliders stay in my shirt if it's a short trip in very light traffic, like late at night)... she woke up right as I got off the highway and *chomped* on my boob to say 'hi, mom'. I yelled something along the lines of "What the f*ck, Tabitha??" followed by some scolding; the yelling woke Lemmy up and he started crabbing his ass off. Sheesh.

*sigh* I miss my little bitey girl... :rainbow:


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## PaGal

I have been lucky that none of the buns are biters. I have been nipped a few times but lightly although it still lets you know just how painful a real bite could be. 

I do have to watch when I go to clean Thumpers cage. He likes to run up behind me and between my legs as I'm kneeling there cleaning. The other night I was low and if I was a man I would have been singing soprano.


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## Imbrium

Eep!!

Gaz bites to be mean sometimes if she's not getting her way... she's gotten a bit bad about it lately >.> At least Norm's bites are just love bites.

Man, I've been putting Norm's pellets in one of those PetSafe cat food/treat balls that I bought for the cats a few months ago... he goes NUTS for that thing - it's his favorite toy by far. I always hear him rolling it around out in the hallway, hehe. Earlier, he nudged it into a tight corner... then managed to pick the whole thing up in his mouth (he grabbed the bit you twist to open it, I assume) and drag it back out into the open - too cute. I ordered some to sell on my website, plus a couple other types of food/treat dispensers by the same brand to try out - they came today, so Nala and Gaz will get a new toy with their nightly pellets .


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## Imbrium

So I was a total bitch to someone last night, heh. In my defense, they all kinds of deserved it (and then some!).

Last Saturday, I tried to leave at 9:20 PM to go get some stuff from Home Depot (about 10 mins away and they close at 10 pm)... but I couldn't, 'cause some asshat was illegally double-parked, completely blocking the legitimate parking spot I had my car in. I meeped the horn three times in quick succession, hoping that the offender was nearby and would realize that the horn might be directed at them. Nope.

I waited a few minutes and then attempted to call the phone number for the towing company that's got signs up in our complex (by all the areas where it's illegal to park). The line was picked up by what sounded like a garbled recording of music... WTF?? So I called the non-emergency police line. Spent 5+ minutes talking to dispatch and then camped the car out while waiting for the authorities.

The guy came back before the cops arrived and I asked him why he would park in a way that blocked someone else's car in and he was SUCH AN ASS ABOUT IT (even though I was, imo, reasonably tactful - I didn't raise my voice or swear at all, I just asked him point-blank why he would do such a thing)! According to him, it was completely not his fault in any way - he blamed the lack of parking spots and told me to take it up with the office!! I asked why he didn't park illegally in a way that DIDN'T block someone in (which *everyone* does due to the shortage of parking spots) and he blew me off - I guess his lazy ass didn't want to walk further so as not to be a complete jerk to someone else. The douchebag copped an attitude like he truly believed there was nothing I could do in that situation other than patiently wait for him to show back up... and it irks me to no end that I didn't get a chance to prove to him just how wrong that assumption was.

Naturally, the tow truck guy that the police referred the issue to called right after the jerk left (too late for me to get to Home Depot, as it was 9:55 or so). Worst part is that I did get his license plate # written down but I didn't think about taking a picture of how he was blocking me in until he was pulling away, so I have no proof to take to the apartment office .

Actually, scratch that, the WORST part is that he got DROPPED OFF at his car by someone else!! Meaning he wasn't even in the complex at all while he was blocking my car in! God, did he deserve to be towed!! What an inconsiderate jackass! Oh, and in addition to blaming everyone but himself, he didn't even TRY to apologize to me!!

Unfortunately, he got dropped off as I was carrying a couple 2x4s to the apartment from my car (still in there from the previous HD trip) and was already in his **** Jeep by the time I got back out there - I'd had the foresight to put on my steel toe girly sneakers when I first went inside to fetch the phone. If anyone deserved a swift kick in the shins, it was that bastard!

I can understand double-parking in some situations - I've done it myself at this complex. However, my excuse was that I was *actively* unloading the car after grocery shopping. I left the hazard lights on while I was double-parked and was never out of sight of my car for more than 2-3 minutes at a time so that if someone that I was blocking in wanted to leave, I would be right there to offer an apology and get my car out of their way in a timely fashion.

~~~~~

Last night, another person double-parked in a way that blocked my car in. They were only blocking half of the rear end of my car, but they were close enough to it that I couldn't have gotten out of the spot. I didn't even want to go anywhere (saw it while taking the trash out), but THEY didn't know that. I learned my lesson last time about trying to go through legitimate channels leading to an asshat getting away with being rude and inconsiderate. I immediately knew what evil I had in mind this time but went back inside, since I couldn't be sure they wouldn't be right back to their car or something.

Fifteen minutes or so later, I went out to look again and the car was STILL blocking me. I grabbed a pair of needle-nose pliers, glanced around to make sure there were no witnesses, quietly popped the valve stem on their rear passenger's side tire and then went back inside.

If they got back to their car reasonably soon after that, then they'd have heard the air hissing out of the tire (it was quite audible) and all they would have to do is push the valve stem back into place and fill the tire up. If, however, they took their sweet time getting back to the car, they'd show up to find their tire totally flat and would almost certainly assume the worst; meaning they'd go to all the trouble of putting the spare on and taking the regular tire to be repaired/replaced... only to find out that the tire was in perfect condition and only needed to have the valve stem pushed in and air put back in it.

I enjoyed delivering some instant karma! People who don't bother to stop and think (or care) about what negative consequences THEIR behavior might inflict on some random stranger piss me off something fierce. I was raised to be polite and to think about how my actions might affect other people. I would never DREAM of screwing someone over by acting an ass and then copping a "get over it" attitude towards the person I wronged. I HATE having to park on the opposite end of the complex because of how sh*tty the parking situation is here, but if the only alternative is to double-park and potentially screw someone else over, I suck it up and walk home after parking in the boonies.

Slashing a tire (or breaking a car window *glares at apartment 134*) is totally hoodrat - deliberately inflicting property damage makes you as bad as whoever pissed you off (if not worse; god knows $150 for a new car window was a ridiculously unfair punishment for loudly playing the ICP song "Piggie Pie" with the windows down as I drove through the parking lot)... which is why I would NEVER slash someone's tire no matter how badly they pissed me off. I'm above petty vandalism - there are always more artful ways to seek revenge.

"Coring" a tire, however - especially if you don't actually *remove* the valve stem but merely loosen it - is a different story in my book. A specific sum of money has a different value from one person to the next depending on their situation but inconvenience is universal - letting the air out of a tire is much more in line with "an eye for an eye" than damaging/destroying said tire (and whether they stop to appreciate it or not, is actually LESS of a punishment than having their car towed ).

Gotta love Kurt Vonnegut for being the inspiration - it was through one of his novels that I learned about the concept of "coring" tires by pulling out (or in my case, loosening) the valve stems.


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## JBun

Jennifer, you're evil :shock: :laugh:

Justifiably of course. Don't mess with this girl


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## Imbrium

I can be an excellent ally or a nightmarish enemy... and I let people choose for themselves .


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## Troller

Hmm, Ive had plenty of these same scenarios occur to me and my parked spot. Not sure I should cheer you on, I mean you didnt do anything lasting and man have I felt like taking out my vengeance in far harsher ways when its happened to me. As long as you feel better about the whole thing.


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## Chrisdoc

Jennifer, you are my hero. I hate it when people double park and block someone and then they just sort of wave for you to wait as they walk back and don´t even apologise. It happens all the time here in town, the Spanish are too lazy to walk anywhere lol. 

I remember telling you it happened to me and the guy had left the handbrake on so you could push the car. I called the police and they turned up before he came back and towed the car, was I pleased. But I must look how to do that with the tyres, I would be very tempted to do the same myself.


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## Imbrium

^ This is a valve stem (the thing you attach the air nozzle to when putting air in a tire).

To "core" a valve stem, you remove the little screw-on cap if there is one, then use a pair of needle-nose pliers _[ideally, a very small pair that's no larger than your hand/easily concealed in a pocket as that's much sneakier than a large pair ] _to grab that stick thingy you see inside the valve stem. Pull on it (hard) until air is hissing out of the tire even after you let go of it (you should hear a little pop noise when you actually pull it out of place). Slip the pliers into your pocket and nonchalantly stroll away.

It's as easy as that!


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## lovelops

And WHO taught your Lop to have an attitude again????? HUM????




Vanessa


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## Chrisdoc

Very interesting, this could come in very handy over here lol


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## Imbrium

I f*cking hate the people in this apartment complex, and not just for their double-parking.

I've finally mustered up the resolve to make another attempt at a bunny garden - I haven't tried since **** caterpillars decimated my few potted herbs last year. With the addition of Normie (a fiend for leafy greens, btw), my veggie bills have gone up a bit and my frustration with the limited selection of affordable greens at grocery stores has been renewed ($3-4 for maybe an ounce of dried herbs = ripoff!). I hadn't planned to try to garden this spring because we live in an apartment complex full of sh*tty people with sh*tty kids and will be moving back to the house in San Antonio in May (ie the middle of the growing season).

I forget what sparked the idea, but I somehow got to thinking that I could make a very small green-house type enclosure to allow me to safely keep plants on the courtyard side of our apartment (where a pack of obnoxious brats loves to scream and run and scream some more and wreck everything up) without spending a lot of money... and - duh - a container garden would be easy to relocate when we move.

Anyway, I planted my first tray of seeds last weekend and some had already sprouted by Wednesday. I haven't gotten the greenhouse thing made yet, so I took some portable/stackable shelves (metal/plastic coated), set them up beside the apartment (grumbling the whole time about the ridiculous amount of dog sh*t in OUR grass because maybe 1 in 5 dog owners in this complex are actually considerate enough to pick up after their dogs) and moved my numerous wheat grass trays + my tray of seedlings outdoors to get some sun. To discourage kids and dogs from screwing up my plants, I used a little 2' high/10' long garden fence from Home Depot to make a circle around my plant shelves.

It was like 36F and drizzly Thursday evening and was predicted to get down to 28F with potential for ice/freezing rain... so naturally, I went out to bring in my plants (and the shelves, so no one would steal them). I found the "gate" panel of the fence (the one that was hooked to the panel at the other end to make an enclosed ciricle) wide open... and realized when I brought the tray of seedlings in that ALL of the little plastic straw pieces were missing. I forgot to take a pic of the tray when it was totally finished, unfortunately (****, would that be helpful if I had ><), but the straws were set up like this:










The straws were pretty crucial, as I didn't bother to remember what I planted in each cell - instead, I used a different color of straw for each kind of seed and wrote down what plant corresponded to what color straw.

I KNOW the straws were deliberately removed - they were pushed in there too far for wind/rain to have removed ALL 32 of them without causing any damage whatsoever to my little sprouts, plus there wasn't a single colored straw piece anywhere in the grass around where I'd had the plants. At the same time, it didn't really seem like malicious sabotage since the plants weren't harmed or disturbed in the least... suggesting that some stupid kid with NO FREAKING MANNERS came along and pulled out all the straw pieces for sh*ts and giggles without ever stopping to consider that they might serve some sort of important purpose.

There's not even a REASON to take all my straws out of my plant cells! What the heck would anyone want with the straws? What's the purpose of taking them away from me? It's completely pointless!!

The idea that a kid did it makes me especially pissed off - it's bad enough for adults to be inconsiderate jerks; what's even worse is when they go around spawning kids and raising those kids to also be inconsiderate jerks. What kind of parent lets their kid roam the apartment complex unsupervised (inattentive parents that don't stop rude behavior even though they're right there counts as "unsupervised" in my book) without first teaching them that it's rude to tamper with other peoples' personal stuff?? I never would've dreamed of f*cking around with a neighbor's garden when I was a little kid, because I was raised to know better.

In addition to screaming and shrieking at the top of their lungs in the courtyard for hours at a stretch like our apartment is soundproof and we can't hear that sh*t loud and clear through the two 6'x6' windows our apartment has on the courtyard side, the hoodrat little kids in this complex have also:
~ Stuck gum to our front door frame for no **** reason... TWICE.
~ Rung our doorbell and then ran away on numerous occasions
~ Tapped on our living room window because Dusty was sitting in it
~ STARED into our windows when the blinds were up for some reason
The first time was when I had the blinds up in the glider room and was doing something to the window frame; two little boys were walking through the courtyard and when they saw me, they turned, walked to within a few feet of the window and freaking stared at me.
Also, kids routinely tapped on our windows when the living room blinds were partially raised for a while and Dusty would sit there. Once, I walked in the front door to find two kids with their faces freaking PRESSED to the living room window (a little girl around 5-6 and a little boy who was probably 3) where Dusty was sitting... and the little girl had the audacity to smile and give me this big wave as if to say "HIIIII!!", like she wasn't doing anything even REMOTELY inappropriate.
~ Stolen all the straws out of my seedling tray
~ Not sure if it was a kid, but someone put a BB-sized hole through our living room window at some point

Basically, there are SOME kids in this complex that are quiet, well-behaved and have been raised to have proper manners... but those are the ones I almost never see. A significant number of kids here have sh*tty parents who haven't taught them not to be little hoodrats and to show some **** manners once in a while... and their sh*tty parents let them run rampant around the courtyard outside our apartment without adequate supervision.

When I was a little kid in New Orleans, we lived in a reasonably nice (middle) middle class neighborhood... but at the end of our street was the main street through the neighborhood and on the opposite side of that street was this ghetto-ass apartment complex where the residents as a whole could only be described as "white trash". An awful lot of the people here are pretty much the hispanic version of "white trash".

~~~~~

I don't get why common courtesy is such a foreign concept to some people. I hate most of the people here, but I'm still civil towards everyone and behave respectfully unless someone specifically gives me a reason not to because that's just how decent people conduct themselves.

The only thing I EVER do that could potentially be construed as "inconsiderate" _(which is a different matter entirely from deliberate, calculated revenge against someone who went out of their way to invite it)_ is playing with noisy power tools... and I say "potentially" because my situation is an exception to that rule. I only use them outside if it's the middle of the day and even then, never for more than 10-15 minutes TOPS (the maintenance and "lawn care" guys make far more noise than I do, and far more often) - 99% of the time, I use them indoors where the apartment walls muffle the sound and prevent it from echoing across the courtyard like the screams and shrieks of children.

While sound does easily travel through apartment walls/ceilings (and I use noisy power tools inside on a regular basis), there's only ONE apartment adjacent to ours (we're on the ground floor and have no shared walls with other apartments) - our upstairs neighbor. When Jay moved in, she approached him right away with a proposition - _she said he could make as much noise as he wanted at any time of day or night and she wouldn't mind a bit... as long as he was okay with her doing the same_. He likes to have the option to crank the music up pretty loudly, so he readily agreed.

Basically, we all have (and take advantage of) the freedom to create a racket at any time of day or night without fear of pissing off the neighbors... and in exchange, we all suck it up and get over it when people in the other apartment do the same. I would never even *consider* using a power saw or impact driver or whatever at four in the morning while living in an apartment complex if I didn't know for a fact that the only neighbor who might hear it won't be annoyed by the noise (the same way I couldn't care less about what sounds like her dragging heavy furniture across her living room floor at a similar hour). It's an awesome arrangement, as no one has to be paranoid about how much noise they make and everyone's happy.

Excluding the chick upstairs, though, I really do hate most of the people in this apartment complex!

I also wish I knew how to speak Spanish so I could tell people what I think of them in a language they'd understand. While I wouldn't mind being able to tell off 132 and 134 about their craptastic parenting skills and obnoxious demon-spawn children, the time I most wished I spoke Spanish was actually the time I saw some lady walking her dog in front of our apartment (on the non-courtyard side) - she was carrying plastic bags and clearly had the intention of cleaning up after her dog. I really wanted to be able to tell her just how appreciative I was that she was considerate enough to do that even though almost no one else is! I think I got the gist of it across, but language barriers are still frustrating... and I like to reward appropriate behavior just as much as I like to punish rudeness, if not more, because I DO notice and appreciate when people are courteous towards others.


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## Imbrium




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## PaGal

I would go nuts living where you are. I have dealt with crazy, annoying neighbors in the past and am so glad I no longer have to. The most annoying thing I put up with is the neighbors little dogs coming into out yard. Wouldn't be so bad but it causes my not so bright dog to want to spend all day outside just sniffling and snuffling even though it is only 15F outside.

The kids do sound horrendous. You can't expect much good parenting from people that are clueless jerks themselves. The girl looking in your window although rude may be innocent enough. From my experience most kids that run wild like that do not get the attention they need from adults, she may have just been curious and trying to be friendly. 

I remember my daughter at 7 was outside playing along with her brother. I went inside just long enough to make a cup of coffee. She picked up a handful of cigarette butts and put them in our neighbors mail box. She did get into trouble because she was being raised to respect others belongings and property. I can't remember her explanation for doing so but can remember in her goofy seven year old mind what she did was supposed to be a kind thing. So who knows why a kid would want to take a bunch of colored straws. To an adult it may not make much sense but be completely understandable to a child. Not that it is OK for a child to take something that belongs to someone else.


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## Imbrium

PaGal said:


> She picked up a handful of cigarette butts and put them in our neighbors mail box. She did get into trouble because she was being raised to respect others belongings and property. I can't remember her explanation for doing so but can remember in her goofy seven year old mind what she did was supposed to be a kind thing. So who knows why a kid would want to take a bunch of colored straws. To an adult it may not make much sense but be completely understandable to a child. Not that it is OK for a child to take something that belongs to someone else.



LOL... kids are so weird when it comes to misguided but well-intentioned behavior. And yeah, the fact that it could make sense to a kid is exactly why I suspected a kid was to blame!

I don't hold it against the kids here... much, anyway... it's not their faults that their parents suck. You can't expect a kid to know how to behave themselves if no one gives them boundaries or sets a good example. If kids were born knowing how to be respectable adults, it wouldn't take 18+ years to raise them well enough to send them out into the world on their own!


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## lovelops

Jennifer

I can help you with the Spanish, remember my husband is from Peru and I speak pretty fluent spanish. PM me and we can talk more about that.

All I can plant outside now is rabbit pooh and snow! I wish I could get things planted now but alas! It's still too **** cold here.

All your postings reminds me of why I finally bought a house after moving out of South East DC!

Vanessa


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## Imbrium

Only thing is, if I start speaking Spanish they'll probably start speaking Spanish back... and then I'd be in trouble! 

Our weather's odd, as always - 70F+ one day, 30F the next. It was pretty hot today and tomorrow night the plants have to come in again because it's supposed to freeze.

Owning a house sucks... stuff's always breaking, there's so much to maintain, and then there's the $4300 property tax bill I'm about to have to pay - that's the real kick in the teeth! **** property taxes! I'll still take a house over the apartment any day, though. I can't even have maintenance fix something without the jackass repair jerk - who's a total narc - ratting us out for a few screw holes in the walls or for our apartment "not being clean enough". Never mind that it's CLEAN, it's just very cluttered - clutter and filth are two entirely different things! We don't attract bugs and nothing's unsanitary... that should be all that matters. Maybe the clutter would be more under control if I could put holes in the walls without worrying about getting evicted >.>


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## lovelops

Imbrium said:


> Only thing is, if I start speaking Spanish they'll probably start speaking Spanish back... and then I'd be in trouble!
> 
> Our weather's odd, as always - 70F+ one day, 30F the next. It was pretty hot today and tomorrow night the plants have to come in again because it's supposed to freeze.
> 
> Owning a house sucks... stuff's always breaking, there's so much to maintain, and then there's the $4300 property tax bill I'm about to have to pay - that's the real kick in the teeth! **** property taxes! I'll still take a house over the apartment any day, though. I can't even have maintenance fix something without the jackass repair jerk - who's a total narc - ratting us out for a few screw holes in the walls or for our apartment "not being clean enough". Never mind that it's CLEAN, it's just very cluttered - clutter and filth are two entirely different things! We don't attract bugs and nothing's unsanitary... that should be all that matters. Maybe the clutter would be more under control if I could put holes in the walls without worrying about getting evicted >.>



I had to deal with the same BS when I lived in DC in my apartment. Same bs about clutter vs dirty... that's why I said f it and finally bought a house. Property taxes suck where I'm at I have to pay them 2 xs a year and I think that is crap...

Well about the spanish I could give you one catch phrase to use over and over, Yeah, well kiss my butt.... he he he..

Vanessa


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## Chrisdoc

Jennifer any help with the Spanish, just let me know, I can give yu a long list of choices phrases for any occasion. Glad I own my apartment, can do whatever I want but sometimes neighbours can be a pain and I hate where people let their kids run riot with absolutely no supervision.


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## Imbrium

I hate this apartment complex with the fire of a thousand suns. One hell of a rant is building, but right now it's dickin' hot and I'm far too miserable to rant properly. It's 73F/83% humidity outside, 81F/60% humidity inside and the "air conditioning" is currently HEAT. Worst of all, that's not even either of the top two things I have to rant about right now. This place is a sh*thole and I'd have more rights if I were in prison.

For now, I'm just going to express my feelings towards this third-world slumhole and the jackasses who run it with a song (which comes with a "NSFW" warning, btw ).

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57Ry2HGTjEE[/ame]


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## Chrisdoc

Very appropriate, you do need a change. Feel free to rant when you're ready


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## Imbrium

I feel like I'm dying!! Not really, but ****. It's so f*cking hot in here. I've got this big bag of "Soil Moist" granules that I bought for the plants... I hydrated some of it (turns into gel cubes) and used my vacuum-sealer (I buy rolls, not pre-cut bags) to make ginormous gel packs for the bunnies. I just put them in the freezer and am working on making something to contain them so that the bunnies can't chew them open. I doubt it would hurt them if they ingested a little since it's supposedly non-toxic and some people use this stuff to "water" crickets so they don't drown in their water, but I don't want to take any chances (also, that would be quite a mess if it were totally thawed by then).

I'm not sure how the gel will fare compared to regular ice in terms of thaw time, but I figure it's worth a shot and if it doesn't work out, I can just cut open the bags and reuse the gel in my soil mix.


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## pani

Ooh, that's a neat idea.  I think next summer I'll have a hunt for something similar, but premade. I'm not as resourceful as you! This summer my guys are just getting frozen bottles.


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## lovelops

Imbrium said:


> I feel like I'm dying!! Not really, but ****. It's so f*cking hot in here. I've got this big bag of "Soil Moist" granules that I bought for the plants... I hydrated some of it (turns into gel cubes) and used my vacuum-sealer (I buy rolls, not pre-cut bags) to make ginormous gel packs for the bunnies. I just put them in the freezer and am working on making something to contain them so that the bunnies can't chew them open. I doubt it would hurt them if they ingested a little since it's supposedly non-toxic and some people use this stuff to "water" crickets so they don't drown in their water, but I don't want to take any chances (also, that would be quite a mess if it were totally thawed by then).
> 
> I'm not sure how the gel will fare compared to regular ice in terms of thaw time, but I figure it's worth a shot and if it doesn't work out, I can just cut open the bags and reuse the gel in my soil mix.



PLEASE! IT's HOT?? I've got ICE hanging off the trees, cars, everything. 
Obviously you are throwing that out like little daggers at me and those of us on the East coast of the US dealing with these freaking winter storms that keep on coming and coming like the Energizer Bunny. Now there is another one coming toward the end of this week. 

The temp says 48? But 48 where? Not here.. sigh... I thought I sent you an PM about bonding Lady and Brooke? Or did I take painkillers and falls asleep again? 

Vanessa


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## Imbrium

I don't remember a PM about bonding...

Like I told you before, I'll *gladly* trade weather with you! Texas weather is ridiculous. This week is shockingly quite nice - upper 40s/lower 50s - but it's usually either 80F or 30F (often in the same day).

I haven't actually tested/finished the things I was making for the bunns to deal with the heat, as a cool front came through and then I spent a couple days in bed, avoiding a sinus infection through gratuitous amounts of sleep (which has wrecked havoc on my to-do list ><).

I also still have to rant about the jackassery around here that I mentioned the other day... and deal with it... heh. F*cking kids. F*cking dipsh*t apartment complex manager that won't let me take the necessary measures to defend my plants from said kids. I hate them all.


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## Imbrium

I f*cking hate people. They've got a f*cking MOONBOUNCE and are blaring Tejano music at top volume and it's ruining our entire apartment for me. Sucks for them that HPD is on the way to write up a noise violation on them 'cause they're violating the lease with outdoor music. There's a bunch of parents and well over a dozen kids out there... STELLAR example you're setting for those kids, morons. TWENTY EIGHT APARTMENTS face out into that courtyard on one side... and they blare that loud-ass crappy music ALL DAY LONG like it couldn't possibly be bothering anyone in ANY of those 28 apartments!!!


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## Aubrisita

Ugh, I am so sorry to hear that. People can be such inconsiderate aholes. I hope you get some and quiet soon. :/


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## PaGal

Wow, you really do need to move. I am sure that must not be an option at the moment as I'm sure you would have if you could. People just are not considerate of others that much any more. I really do think it has gotten worse over the years and continues to do so. Probably because it seems the people that make the worst parents tend to have the most kids and it continues on and spreads.


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## lovelops

Imbrium said:


> I f*cking hate people. They've got a f*cking MOONBOUNCE and are blaring Tejano music at top volume and it's ruining our entire apartment for me. Sucks for them that HPD is on the way to write up a noise violation on them 'cause they're violating the lease with outdoor music. There's a bunch of parents and well over a dozen kids out there... STELLAR example you're setting for those kids, morons. TWENTY EIGHT APARTMENTS face out into that courtyard on one side... and they blare that loud-ass crappy music ALL DAY LONG like it couldn't possibly be bothering anyone in ANY of those 28 apartments!!!



But really Jennifer, tell us how you really feel! 

HE HE HE.....

In light of me offending anyone on the list of Hispanic descent (and remember I am married to a Latino, my blood cousin is married to a Puerto Rican so my second cousins are half Puerto Ricans... and used to work for USCIS-Immigration) could you possibly call ICE, do you think any of these people are in violation of Immigration/ Border laws to put it lightly? I'm not saying put US Citizens in Jail... but you know what I'm saying..



Vanessa


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## lovelops

Imbrium said:


> I f*cking hate people. They've got a f*cking MOONBOUNCE and are blaring Tejano music at top volume and it's ruining our entire apartment for me. Sucks for them that HPD is on the way to write up a noise violation on them 'cause they're violating the lease with outdoor music. There's a bunch of parents and well over a dozen kids out there... STELLAR example you're setting for those kids, morons. TWENTY EIGHT APARTMENTS face out into that courtyard on one side... and they blare that loud-ass crappy music ALL DAY LONG like it couldn't possibly be bothering anyone in ANY of those 28 apartments!!!




I was also going to say sure you don't want to move to some of my land in South Carolina? Tons of open space and no freaking neighbors in site. I've got 11 acres in one county and 40 something in another. I've let someone put a trailer on 1/4 acre but they aint' taking up the entire 40 acres by a long shot and they are on the side of the road facing traffic. You could sit on the back half of 10 acres and be in the middle of no where... 

Vanessa


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## Imbrium

Wow, lol... that's an insane amount of space! There's no way I could live in a trailer or something, though... as it is, I'm wondering how the hell we're going to merge this 2 BR apartment into my 3 BR house. At least at the house, it's not nearly as bad as it is here.

The cops did finally show up an hour and a half after I called and the music got turned down to a less unreasonable volume... but it shouldn't be on at ALL out in the courtyard. This latest incident ties in really well to another rant I need to get to at some point, regarding a loud, outdoor scene I made with the jackass from the office. He came out looking like the unreasonable one, according to a couple neighbors who overheard (they were outdoors at the time - I wasn't *that* loud ) and asked me afterward what he was complaining about.


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## Imbrium

Rant of the day: WHY CAN'T PEOPLE PUT STUFF BACK WHERE THEY GOT IT FROM??

This rant used to be reserved for tuna fish - nothing like grabbing a can or two from the "packed in water" can stacks, then you open the can and go to drink the delicious tuna juice from it and instead, you get a mouth full of DISGUSTING OIL.

Now, my rant extends to canned pineapple.

Both my husband's grandmothers are still alive... Naomi raised him after he got kicked out at 15 and he loves her to pieces, but she's in a home after having a stroke many years ago. She's really sweet and I love her too, but you can't talk to her very long before she gets tired and it can be hard to understand her at times. "Lala" is the grandmother on his father's side. Hubby's dad still lives with her because he's on disability and has a lot of mental health issues (schizophrenia, bi-polar, etc.). I take my husband over there all the time to visit with his dad 'cause they're good buddies. At first, I started going back to Lala's room to watch TV with her so they could have some "guy time" without me but she and I ended up really bonding - we get along great!

Lala's turning 74 tomorrow (today, technically), which means she's only nine years older than my mom would be and my dad would actually be like 8 months older than her. Dad died when I was 9 and mom died when I was 21, so I never really got to have "adult" relationships with them and I really wish I had. Heck, my dad was my best friend when I was a kid... Lala reminds me a LOT of him... suffice it to say, she's my favorite in-law.

We have some awesome synergy, too - she *hates* cooking with a passion but enjoys doing the dishes. Dirty dishes are my kryptonite but give me a handful of hungry people and a nearly-barren pantry/fridge (she's lazy about shopping, but I'm not in a position to judge, lol) and I'll whip up a delightful dinner. What can I say, all the grateful "Yum!"s give me a case of the warm fuzzies . It started with them offering that we could help ourselves to food if we were hungry, but I got raised to be a polite and grateful guest so any time I made something for Jay and myself, I would make them plates as well. Sammiches at first, but then Lala caught on and started steering me towards real meals - "oh, we have some pork chops that are about to expire if you'd like to cook those" and such, lol. Pretty soon, she had me (willingly) trained to cook a nice meal whenever we come over. She's always so excited to not have to cook and I'm grateful for free food and good company (without even having to do dishes after).

Anyway, we're broke and I can't really afford to buy her a birthday gift but it's not like she really needs anything anyway (not since I got her Roku and put her on our Hulu account for Christmas so that she could watch Hulu and Netflix in her bedroom since John monopolizes the living room TV, hehe)... so I called and asked what kind of cake she likes because you're never too old for birthday cake and baking is cheap! She said "anything but chocolate" but after tossing some ideas her way, I mentioned that I make a great pineapple upside-down cake and she got excited, so that's what I settled on.

I bought the stuff to make her cake the other night and I was really careful to double-check and make sure I got the pineapple rings and NOT the stupid chunks. I KNOW I grabbed a can in the middle of numerous stacks of rings... and yet... I open the can to line the cake pan and it's freaking CHUNKS. WTF? The only explanation is that some jerk picked up chunks and then set the can of chunks down amidst the cans of rings and I didn't catch it! That might not have been a big deal, except the cake batter was already mixed, it was 11:48 pm (our Walmarts close at midnight now, the jerks) and I was on my fourth glass of wine, meaning I wasn't about to drive anywhere anyway.

That meant either making the cake with the stupid chunks or keeping the batter mix in the fridge overnight. Using the chunks seemed like the lesser of two evils, heh. Hopefully the chunks and cherries didn't migrate too much! I poured the batter very carefully and they didn't appear to move much but what happened once it was in the oven is anyone's guess. All I know is that this cake better turn out delicious and appropriately professional-looking tomorrow or a curse upon the jerk who miss-filed the can of pineapple chunks at Walmart >.>


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## Imbrium

The story of our new rabbits:

Dunno if anyone here is familiar with the Houston area, but we basically live in the Woodlands area... Citizens for Animal Protection (where the bunny we wanted was located) is in Katy. Depending on traffic, it's a 2-4 hour round trip. We had to make it three times! The first time, we got stuck in traffic and didn't make it in time before they closed. The second time, the address on my ID didn't match the one on our application because we'd moved less than 2 weeks earlier... so they told me I had to come back with some sort of proof of address.

We wanted a male rabbit to pair with Nala (since Layne died in January)... we both wanted another big bunny and I've wanted a Californian for a while (the last time I meant to get one, bunny dates didn't back up my choice, lol... and we ended up with Alice, a 4 month old broken black Holland Lop instead). Hubby fell head-over-heels in love with "Barnaby" through the CAP website and begged me for him. They didn't have many males to choose from and there was something about the wild look in Barnaby's eye, lol... it was love at first sight for me as well.

On our first successful trip down there, we (and Nala) met Barnaby. While I was looking for Barnaby's cage right after we got there, I saw a sweet little Dutch female pressing her nose to the bars like she wanted me to pet her. Foolish me, I indulged. Her face was so narrow, her eyes so blue! When I reached a finger through to stroke the bridge of her nose, I could feel her melting!

My second mistake was talking to my husband about that sweet little nose on the drive home. He begged, I said no. I said absolutely not. Hell no to four rabbits that I have to take care of. Alice had been dropped off at the same shelter for much overdue spay surgery (she was too little when adopted and then life got away from us and we never got her back in for it).

I said the only way we were getting the little Dutch girl was if Barnaby wasn't still there when we went back in 2 days or if, god forbid, something happened to Alice (statistically, the odds of her having some sort of reproductive cancer were pretty high at her age and a spay would only cure her if it hadn't spread). As it turns out, there was a third way... if I was so relieved that Alice made it through surgery and recovery with flying colors and I was just so happy that I caved and agreed to the fourth rabbit, lol.

Anyway, we picked Alice up and she rode in the front seat with me, in her carrier. Husband rode in the back seat with our two new rabbits and Nala (who came along because a 1.5 hour car ride sounded like a great way to jump-start trio bonding).

On a side note, I really need to get off my butt and find a way to regain access to my old photobucket account so I can quit fussing with TinyPic whenever I want to post photos here!


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## Imbrium

PICS!

Barnaby (the big ol' Californian), Harley Quinn (the Dutch with amazingly blue eyes) and Nala (my prized little Lionhead, who I've had since she was 7 weeks old... she turns 7 years in a couple months):




















[He looks damp/dirty on his hind end because he startles very easily and, on multiple occasions during a trio bonding session, he exploded and ricocheted across the bathroom area, slamming into the water bowl in the process.]


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## JBun

Oh fun! They're so cute! With how relaxed he looks, I somehow get the feeling that he's going to be the big boss bunny.


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## Imbrium

He's actually turned out to be extremely high-strung, lol. I call him "Big Baby" most of the time because he's very skittish/easily startled and often looks for a "skirt" to hide behind... but once you get your hands on him, he's such a snuggler! 7-8 lb rabbit trying to hide under/behind a 4 lb rabbit... hilarious! Poor thing displays a lot of PTSD-like symptoms, though. He runs away when you try to get him usually, which isn't abnormal for a rabbit, but sometimes the run is more like a terrified ricochet to the opposite side of the area.

When he was in the open master bath area, he'd hide on the back rim of the massive tub (like a whirlpool tub without jets) and if you approached him while he was in a corner, he wouldn't try to run... but as you reached over to gently pet him, he would flinch like he expected to be hit! That broke my heart so bad! I tell him regularly in my most reassuring voice that he's in a safe place and no one will ever hit him for the rest of his life.

I don't know if it was his first owners or the park they dumped him in... who knows how long he was in the park or if he even could've been born there (though clearly he was tame enough to get caught by whoever brought him to the shelter). They guesstimated his age at 6 mos when he got there. When I got the condo built (he and Harley currently have the first floor of a 3 grid x 6 grid NIC condo), he seemed really relieved to be back in a "cage" of sorts where he felt like he had a wall between himself and any external stimuli.

Harley, on the other hand, was a pampered house rabbit from what I could tell. I expected her to have some issues and be skittish because her paperwork said "No children under 12!" in the adoptive home and "experienced rabbit owners preferred"... but I really think that was just her former owner doing what they could to make sure she'd be happy in her new home. She's 3 1/2 and was surrendered at the start of February by a person or family who was moving to an apartment that doesn't allow pets.

She's very sweet when she's getting her way (endless nose-rubbing, please)... but when she doesn't like something, she is bossy, demanding and unpredictable. It did say she doesn't like being picked up, as well. In my experience, it's not the picking up so much as how long you plan to hold her and if you want to do something to her like trimming nails or snuggling her that she really minds.

We originally gave her the name Ellie, which I liked a lot... Jay wanted to nickname Barnaby "B-Rabbit," so for a while, Harley was "E-Rabbit" and together, they were my "B&E rabbits" because they broke into our hearts, lol. When her "Queen B-" attitude started to surface, though, I said something about the name "Harley Quinn" might be more fitting because she's 'hot but psycho' lol... and once he heard it, there was no talking hubby out of the name change .

I bonded Big Baby with Harley within a day somehow - one mega bonding session that never ended, save for a few hours apart while we slept just to be safe... he got humpy with Nala a couple times during the couple of brief trio-bonding sessions but never once tried to hump Harley Quinn, nor she him. Trio stuff is now on hold while I let the new rabbits settle in and Nala get used to the idea that I'm trying to give her new friends. All three got on like long-lost friends in the backseat on the way home from the shelter... but then I think after 4-5 hours driving to the shelter, getting through the lengthy approval process for adoption and then driving home, Nala had had enough and was ready to be done. Barnaby tried to hump her a couple times and she overreacted a little and seemed unhappy with the proceedings, so I called off bonding after maybe 10-15 mins and put her in her cage.

I tried again a couple days later, but I clearly made a mistake by letting B&E rabbits live in what was originally the neutral bonding area (so that they were constantly in view and in earshot of us humans while I was verifying that they were truly bonded) - when I added Nala back in, Harley got a bit feisty and nipped Nala on the bootie, which naturally didn't go over very well. Hindsight being 20/20, I immediately realized that B&E rabbits had already claimed ownership of the bonding space and immediately pulled Nala out.

A couple days after that, I moved B&E rabbits to the bottom floor of the new condo. I put Nala in there at the exact same time that I put them in (well, a few seconds sooner), thinking that it was a new neutral territory. Unfortunately, while it was a brand new grid configuration in a new home (we had just moved from an apartment to a trailer) on a brand new sheet of coroplast... I hadn't actually *cleaned* the grids thoroughly during the move and Nala is smarter than the average rabbit. It really seems like she could see/smell whatever fur from her and Layne was still stuck to the grids and immediately saw the new rabbits as "intruders" . She kept running around the area and thumping. "I don't like this! *thump*" "Get these other rabbits out of here! *thump*"... etc.

After each thump, she'd run to another section of the cage to inspect it and express her disapproval... and when she ran, Big Bunny would get excited and give chase, upsetting Nala... ugh. Big Bunny, for some reason, has a tendency to chase when excited - sometimes when I'm giving out veggies or pellets, he gets a bit chase-y with HQ and I have to scold/distract him. A couple minutes of that and I decided the best thing to do was to put bonding sessions on hold, let B&E rabbits get fully settled into their new home, let *everyone* forget all about the part of the master bedroom that was originally sectioned off for bonding and resume bonding sessions in a few weeks.

I also think that, while I've successfully bonded a third rabbit to an already bonded pair in the past, it doesn't mesh well with Nala's history and personality for her to be the third. She likes to be the boss and that's hard to do when you're taking on two rabbits at once (one of which is freaking huge and the other is cute but bossy). I think in 3-4 more weeks (time for hormones and ownership-memories to dissipate), I'll do one-on-one sessions with Nala plus Alice, Big Bunny and then HQ and make a decision from there on how to proceed.

I suspect it would be easiest and fastest to bond her with Alice, then bond pair-to-pair... but only if she responds well to Alice. Really crossing my fingers on Alice, as I can tell Nala truly misses having a friend and a quad of rabbits would not only be a significant feat, it may - realistically - not be in the cards here. I would really hate to have to break up B&E rabbits in order to form a duo that Nala can be happy with. I've tentatively exposed her to an unspayed Alice in the past, though, and hormones seemed to be the only thing stopping them from getting along... so fingers crossed. As a bunny slave, I would really take pride in forming a successful quad - it would be, to me, like figuring out a puzzle based around understanding all aspects of my rabbits' personalities - but at the end of the day, I'm willing to settle for maintaining two separate pairs if that's what's best for our bunns.

As for post-spay Alice... hubby often called her "the hormone" while I, as primary caregiver, dubbed her "the kraken." If you're familiar with krakens from video games and have experience tending to an unspayed female rabbit, I'm sure you know *exactly* what I'm talking about! Cage aggression makes it seem like they may as well have like 8 tentacles coming at you at the same time, lol.

I knew from knowledge gained in the course of giving advice here on RO that many hormonal behaviors become 'learned' if they're not fixed at an early age, so I was wise enough not to get my hopes up seeing as Alice was about 4 years overdue to get spayed. Alice surprised me, though! By about day 5 post-surgery, I really started to see changes in her behavior. She'd get that wild look in her eyes when I started to reach a hand into her cage like she was about to launch an attack... but then I'd see her check herself! It's been just over 2 weeks since her surgery and I can reach into her cage not just to add hay to the manger or grab her water bowl/put it back, but even just to pet her without her lunging at me. She's not 100% calm and accepting of my presence, but she's trying hard and making a lot of progress... maybe 80% of the way there and still improving.


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## Imbrium

Harley Quinn's theme song:



That little bunny can lead me on all day long with her sweet little nose and beautiful blue eyes!


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## Imbrium

Rant of the day: I finally have some time to catch up around here and chat/post... and it's making me insane that the f key on the keyboard doesn't work. I had to take the key off and now I have to manually stick something in there to hit the key. I tried to remove some other keys and clean out the keyboard, but only succeeded in breaking the v key as well. For someone who types 80-100 wpm, having to stop and punch a specific key like that gets SUPER tedious! The v key is a major slap in the face, because it broke my work-around for the f key of using ctrl-v to paste in the f instead of having to stab the key.

This is the backup keyboard, too, as hubby spilled something on the "good" one and rendered it worthless... and I can't just buy a new one because I'm broke right now after spending like $500 on a new alternator and battery for my evil jerk of a car. Oh, and the scroll wheel on the mouse is broken too.

It would be really nice to be able to type normally/more fluidly, as I could use some company right now. Hubby is in the mental hospital for the second time in about a month, and even though they've got his meds sorted out now, they're being jerks about letting him out. They want to keep him 7-10 days in addition to the day he spent at the regular hospital's psych ward before being transferred! The hospital they moved him to has a really bad reputation for keeping people longer than need be to milk insurance/the state for the $2000 a day or whatever that they get. I'm going to try to get him out AMA tomorrow... if that fails, some people who left reviews on yelp had success involving the police to get the hospital to release their kid.

I can see why he needed to stay about a week the first time, as that's when he first got diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder... but his meds stopped working/were making things worse and he changed medication, taking the first dose of the new med less than 24h before ending up back in the hospital. This place is different than the first hospital, which gave visitors a form asking if they thought their loved one was ready to be released. This place doesn't care at all what I think, never mind I've had like 9 years to acquaint myself with the ups and downs of his particular brand of crazy. I want to rant so much more, lol, but this keyboard situation is making me too crazy!


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## Imbrium

I haven't been doing bonding lately because with hubby in the hospital it's just too much of a chore for me to haul three or four rabbits back and forth across our trailer to the bonding area. My current health issues simply make it very physically exerting.

At this point, though, I miss bunny bonding, I'm lonely and I'm just tipsy enough to not care about the pain, so I've decided to give bonding another try and also to try posting about it from the stupid cell phone using it's awesome speech-to-text function.

Last I left off, Harley Quinn and big bunny were completely bonded and I would say that Nala was maybe 80% bonded to them as a trio.

I have attempted on multiple occasions to bond Nala and Alice together so that I could then bond one duo to another duo. Unfortunately, Nala and Alice did not get off on the right foot. This may have been because it was only about three weeks after Alice's spay or because Alice, while less hormonal, was still way too excited about seeing another rabbit.

After Alice and Nala fought, I decided it was best to keep them separated for a while so that they could forget about the fight. That's when I started balding Nala to the other pair with moderate success. They were very close to being done bonding and ready to move in together when my husband got diagnosed with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder and had to be hospitalized.

Tonight, I've decided to try a different angle - I have Alice, Harley Quinn and big bunny in the bonding area with me. They were skeptical but seemed okay at first, but then big bunny and his tendency to chase pissed Alice off a little bit and now the two of them seem inclined to fight. I am keeping them apart for now, but Harley Quinn is on the opposite half of the bonding area (separated by physical obstacles), so now I am testing Harley and Alice together.

So far, the girls are quite wary of each other and sometimes someone explodes to a spot a few feet away, but they do not seem interested in fighting and have come together to share a kale leaf more than once.

I feel like Alice and HQ are making some progress, well Alice and big bunny need time apart. I will give the two girls a little more time around each other and then put Alice up and bring Nala in.


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## Imbrium

So, I finished my post and navigated away from the page because I got an alert that I wanted to look into... And while I was responding to another thread Alice and Harley Quinn came nose-to-nose. Alice put her head down like she was asking to be groomed (which, in all honesty, is it hint that HQ never seems to take). I think Harley Quinn actually did groom her a little bit... Then she flopped out right beside Alice! Very hopeful, indeed!

For now, it looks like Harley Quinn gets along with everybody. Nala gets along with HQ and big bunny. Alice gets along with HQ.

I was going to say, I think I'll try continued bonding sessions between Nala and the pair and between Alice and HQ while giving Alice and big bunn and Nala and big bunn continued cool down time... But while I was writing this post, Alice and HQ got into a serious fight that even a spray bottle of water could not break up. I had no choice but to put Alice back in her cage, so now Nala is in the bonding area with the duo. What sucks most is that Alice and HQ are both black and white, so the clumps of hair I found don't really tell me who the worst aggressor was.

I'm starting to get pretty worried that I messed up worse than I realized not getting Alice spayed until she was 4 1/2. While not necessarily aggressive, she is abnormally jumpy in a way that seems to provoke other rabbits. When they react to her, she likes to attack them. Perhaps what she needs is more one-on-one time with her humans as well as more time to adjust to not being full of hormones.

Because of recent altercations with all three other rabbits, Alice is definitely on her own for at least the next month before we attempt bonding again.

As for the other three, Nala has thumped repeatedly at big bunny, but no actual fighting and I think they're going to work it out just fine. After a bit, I nudged Nala over to HQ's side of the room, but they still sort of went in opposite directions and haven't really interacted much yet.

Meanwhile, I'm trying to eat fried chicken for dinner and there are four cats sharking just the other side of the bonding area gate. Seriously, shocking their butts off.

Another nudge... Harley Quinn seems mildly curious and Nala shows complete disinterest. Now big bunny is starting to venture over to the side the girls are on. Big bunny is interested in Nala. Nala is interested in kale and my glass of wine. Cats continue to shark my chicken.

After 40 minutes with no altercations, I am going to exit the bonding area and monitor the three rabbits from the bed a few feet away. Hopefully they continue to behave and end things on a positive note before I put them back in their areas before I go to bed.


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## Imbrium

Imbrium said:


> Harley Quinn's theme song:
> 
> That little bunny can lead me on all day long with her sweet little nose and beautiful blue eyes!


Not sure why it says video unavailable when the video is still very much available on youtube. I tried to update the link to one that currently works on YouTube, but in the post's preview, the new link still says unavailable! GRR. Still love the song and it could totally be about a bunny... though these days, it seems more like Alice than Harley Quinn .



Imbrium said:


> That's when I started balding Nala to the other pair with moderate success.


I hate when I miss a speech-to-text error (or when it starts to type the right thing and then corrects it to the wrong one)! Clearly, I'm shaving all the rabbits before I put them together, lol.



Imbrium said:


> Meanwhile, I'm trying to eat fried chicken for dinner and there are four cats sharking just the other side of the bonding area gate. Seriously, shocking their butts off.


How does it understand "sharking" one second and not the next? Our cats are electrocuting themselves/each other? That makes infinite sense.

~~~~~

Anyway, rabbits are still getting along fine. Mostly indifference, but as any seasoned bonder will tell you, that's actually a great sign. I've nudged them to interact with each other a couple times. My concern right now is housing, once they're 100% ready (which I feel is very soon).

I have a 1 1/2 level condo right now; HQ/BB are on the bottom (full) layer with Nala on the 1/2 upper level (Nala's using a 3*3 grid flooring piece that's reused from the condo she shared with Layne). Next paycheck, I'll buy a sheet of coroplast and another box of grids - when they're ready, I figure I'll rebuild the second story to be 3*6 grids like the first floor. I'll turn the first floor flooring inside-out (so it seems fresh/new) and use it as the second floor flooring, then use the new coroplast for the first floor - that way the entire 3*6*4 condo seems "new" or neutral to all three rabbits. I guess if I ever get Alice added to the mix, I'll buy another new piece of coroplast and repeat the whole process (first floor inside out to be second floor flooring) to make a "neutral" seeming two-story 3x6 condo.

I can handle neutrality, but diet is another issue entirely. Nala is overweight, unfortunately by quite a bit. She's lost an ounce or two and currently gets no fruit and 2 tbsp of rose petals as her non-leafy veggies, plus about 1/2 tsp of pellets per day (literally, like 6 pellets because she clearly knows that I'm giving pellets to the other three and I don't want her to feel left out). I feel like more exercise time/space (which she'll get once bonded to the pair) will help a good bit.

Big Bunny is a Californian... meat rabbit prone to obesity... so I have no qualms about putting his butt on the same diet Nala is on to prevent obesity. He destroys leafy greens like there's no tomorrow anyway! Harley Quinn is a different story, though. If anything, she's borderline underweight and is a picky eater. I can pull her aside and try to feed her pellets that the other two aren't getting, but there's no guarantee she'll be in the mood to eat them when I have time to offer them. She does appreciate rose petals and, while she's indifferent about most fruits, she loves red delicious apples (and also small amounts of whole wheat cracker).

If anyone has any tips for how to manage an overweight/underweight bond situation, I'm open to suggestion!


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## Imbrium

I bit the bullet and started a fresh blog. Please post any responses there.


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