# Princess's and Prince's of the Fancy....



## BSAR (Feb 11, 2009)

Well I though I would post Minnie's baby post!!

The little Princess's and Prince's are due tomorrow! Minnie has had a lot of practice of building her nest! So far so good!

I will be staying home tomorrow in case anything goes wrong and to make sure she has them in the nest box. Since we have already lost two litters we don't want to lose any more, especially not cute English Lops!!!!

So just so everyone knows here are some facts: 

Minnesota(Minnie) is a Black EL. She is the mom.

Mississippi(Sippi) is a Broken Blue EL. He is the lucky dad that we are so glad isn't rasing this babies because they would be very crazy.

We will be naming them state names!!

We will take loads and loads and loads of pics!!!!!! Cuz Englishes are just so dainty!

and the last fact, I have come to confirm that English Lops have their own form of ADHD(Adult Defacit Hyperactivity Disorder) and its called BDHD (Bunny Defacit Hyperbinky Disorder) inkbouce:



ETA: Expect pics in the late afternoon. My sis wants tosee the babies beforepicsare public.


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## JadeIcing (Feb 12, 2009)

Going to go nuts waiting.


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## BSAR (Feb 12, 2009)

Lol Ali.

No babies yet! Minnie hasn't even pulled fur. 
Hopefully soon though! 
I will be checking on her again in about 20 minutes.
When I left the rabbitry she was eating her pellets, but when we walked in it looked like she was cleaning or doing something 'down there'.


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## BSAR (Feb 12, 2009)

I just got back from checking Minnie again and still no babies. She was just sitting in her cage.

Here are some pictures of her last night making the nest.




















She was looking for more hay in this one. At one point her door was unlocked but shut, I caught her with hay in her mouth on her way out the cage! She was just looking, didn't go anywhere though because I locked her cage! lol she wanted the whole hay bucket!


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## BSAR (Feb 12, 2009)

No babies yet....



ETA: I just went out and checked again. No babies. 

She's probably gonna make me and my sister have a heart attack by having Friday the 13th babies!! 

I am going to start checking her every hour.


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## bunnybunbunb (Feb 12, 2009)

I know every rabbit is diffrent but my rabbits 99.99% of the time my does had their babies on day 32. From my rabbits I learned it is most comman for them the birth between 2-7 AM however the rest of the time it was either 9-11 PM, 2-4 PM, and 8-11 PM. I except for about 4-5 does most of them alwayskindled between 2-7 AM.


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## BSAR (Feb 12, 2009)

Yeah most does kindle in the early morning. I think Minnie will be having her babies tomorrow. Oh well I can wait, sorta, as long as they are all healthy and wonderful!!

Either me or my sister will stay home tomorrow with her to make sure it all goes smoothly. 

I am getting ready to go and check on her but I am sure there will be no babies still.

ETA: Still none. Minnie was just sitting sorta hunched up, and her was sleeping.


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## FallingStar (Feb 12, 2009)

Eeepp! I can't wait till her babies come! They are going to be adorable, but wild. Lol, just like their dad. 
Hopefully she will have them tomorrow! 

-
Karlee


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 12, 2009)

Okay, we think Minnie is in labour at this very moment! 
We went out to feed and there was fur in the nest, some blood, but we think that's from the fur. 

She's having contractions, because we can see her body moving like that and all. I just got back in, she was laying down when I left. 

I need to know what to look for in case she has a stuck kit so I can take her to the hospital if there is.
Do they act differently at all? 

She was doing stuff "down there" and laying down, and she made a little grunt when she laid down, but she didn't grunt/make any other noise when it looked like she was having contractions. 

The blood looks really fresh, and the fur looks freshly ripped. So I'm guessing she just started going into labour right before we got out there. 

I will come back in in about 15-20 minutes to check any replies to this. 

Thanks
Emily


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## Sterling Lop Rabbitry (Feb 12, 2009)

Anything Yet =D


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 12, 2009)

I called my 4-H leader and she said we had to pull the kit out and so we were able to after some time. The kit had no head  It was really deformed....eww it was so gross.

I will NEVER breed my EL's at 9 months old again. EVER. That's wayy too old. She's 10 months old now.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 12, 2009)

Forgot to add, we are keeping watch on her.
Vet's afterhours/emergency number is near my cell phone so we can call and let them know when we're coming in if we need to go. 

Emily


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 12, 2009)

Okay Minnie is just sitting in her cage. 
Checked "down there" and couldn't see anything...no kits or anything...
Doesn't look like she's having contractions or anything. 

I'm out in the rabbitry right now. Will update asap. 

Emily


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 12, 2009)

Please pray for her. 
Gosh, why isn't anyone who is helpful on???
Emily


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## FallingStar (Feb 12, 2009)

:bigtears:

I'm so sorry about the baby. That's terrible. 

I hope some survive, and I hope Minnie does good through out the delivery.I'm praying for you guys. 

-

Karlee


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 12, 2009)

Thanks Karlee.  
(((HUGS)))

Mandi is talking with our 4-H leader right now...


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## whaleyk98 (Feb 12, 2009)

Is everything alright? How is mama doing? Im sorry to hear about the baby.=(


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## Luvr of Wabbits and Polar Bears (Feb 12, 2009)

I'm sorry I can't help. I hope Minnie is ok.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 12, 2009)

Minnie seems to be fine now. 
She was eating hay when we left. We're going to keep checking on her though. 
I think there's no more babies, because if there were she would of had them by now. Her belly was so big though. 

My 4-H leader thinks it has something to do with Sippi. I think that a little..., and because Minnie's pelvic bones might have already fused together...she's only 10 months old, but I'm sure it could of happened by now. 

Nevertheless, if I ever have another EL doe to breed with, she's being bred at 8 months, 8 1/2 at the latest. 

Will keep you guys updated. I'm so upset; this is the third litter we've lost since Ray was born. I'm so ready to just call it quits. Even though Sage's litter probably would of survived had one of us stayed home to make sure she made a proper nest (which is why Mandi stayed home today to make sure everything was ok). 

Should change the rabbitry name to "Bad Luck Rabbitry".....:nosir:

Emily


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## TinysMom (Feb 12, 2009)

I'm just checking back in - we went out for a couple of hours.

First of all - I'm VERY VERY sorry for your loss(es). I can understand how hard that must be - been there - done that....and I've done a lot of crying over babies that weren't healthy - no matter how hard I tried to do things right.

Now I could be very wrong with this - I don't know ELs that much - but I would think you would want to wait and breed them after 9 months of age....when we've talked in the past about breeding before the age of 1 - I was thinking about the dwarf (smaller?) breeds like lionheads, holland lops, mini rex, Nethies, etc. I know that flemish and some of the other larger breeds mature later.

I know you think she might not have any more - but I'd keep an eye on her - I've seen does give birth (even to dead kits) and turn around and have another one 24 hours later. I wouldn't plan on that - but still yet - it could happen. 

Once again - I'm sorry for your loss. I know you were really looking forward to this and I was looking forward to it also.


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## BSAR (Feb 13, 2009)

Thank you Tinysmom.

Yes we are still keeping an eye on her.

I have looked online and it said to breed big breed rabbits like her at 9 or 10 months. We bred her at 9 months so.....

Please continue praying for her.ray:ray:


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## bunnybunbunb (Feb 13, 2009)

8-10 months is proper age to breed english lops, this litter has nothing to do with her age. Like you said it was a big baby, many does loose their first litters due to small numbers. I doubt that is the only one she had in her, give her 2 days then you can know forsure. I have a friend who had a doe have babies 24 hours apart and all alive and I myself have had dead babies born one day and alive ones the next. This one baby stressed her out and the fact you was there really hit the nail on the head so she will probably wait to have the others till she knows you are forsure gone for awhile. Rabbits can start and stop labour, if only people could


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## BSAR (Feb 13, 2009)

Thanks bunnybunbun

I just got back form checking on her and she was still looking like she was having some contractions and all.
there was a little it more blood also. 

I felt her stomach and tried to see if there were any more babies but I couldn't feel any more. 
I really hope there aren't anymore.


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## NorthernAutumn (Feb 13, 2009)

Keep your chins up, girls. I'm glad Minnie is doing OK:hug:


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 13, 2009)

Thanks everyone.

Bunnybunbunb, I'm just curious, but where did I say that the kit was big? I don't recall saying that, but yet you said I did. :? Not trying to be rude or anything  

We are going to go check on Minnie in about 15 minutes.

So it could be possible that she still has more in her? 
Do you think she'll be fine through the night? 

Also, when Lily had her litter, everyone on here said that it was really bad when it took her like 30 min. to have them, but now you all are saying that it could take a few days (or at least 24 hr) for Minnie to have them....I'm confused...

Emily


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## TinysMom (Feb 13, 2009)

Emily,

Not to be rude or anything - but from the way you'd talked...I also got the impression that the kit was big. It wasn't that you SAID it...but when it was implied that she only had one - and that it was stuck (which frequently happens with big kits) and that she'd had a big tummy. All of those combined together - gave me the wrong impression also.

Now about the whole thing about it being bad for it to take 30 minutes, etc - let me see if I can clarify things.

When does have babies - especially when it isn't their first litter - their labor frequently goes fairly fast. Even for a first time litter - if the babies are normal size or even a bit small - and mama has a fairly easy time with them - then it will go fast too.

But when a doe is older and her bones have fused...then it will take 30 minutes or longer and be a HARD 30 minutes of labor for her. 

I have shared before how I had one doe - Pow Wow - who took several litters to "get it right". We had a miscarriage - and then dead babies in the next litter - and on and on it went. She had one litter where none survived - so since Sundae had like 9 or 10 babies - I put some in with her and the next morning when I went to check on her - she'd had another baby and it was alive and well (mostly well - she overcleaned one back foot). 

Was she in pain or labor during those 12-18 hours? I don't think so - I think she just had another kit in the second uterine horn and it came out later. She seemed healthy and strong and she didn't look at all like she had any problems with the delivery.

The first time this happened with me - I was in shock. Summer had four kits in her nest (24 hours old) when I left with Art for lunch...we returned and I checked her nest again - and there were FIVE kits. Mama Summer just looked at me like, "Yeah what? I wanted another one...". 

So sometimes - it just happens to take longer for mother nature to get that last kit or kits out. I think its usually that the babies from one uterine horn are born first and the other one is delayed a bit....without mama being in pain.

The pain usually comes from mom having a hard time with the first kits so that she has to struggle with labor and pushing constantly for 30 minutes or so to get the kit(s) out. 

I've also had it happen once to a doe that had two successful litters earlier. But her first kit was huge (for her normal sized babies) and then after that - the kits were normal size and they just came very quickly. But she had to get that huge one out first (and it was dead).

I hope I've helped and not confused...now to get back to packing..


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## Flashy (Feb 13, 2009)

Aw, I'm sorry about your bun.

I too had a little born 24 hours apart. Sandy was very distressed during her kindling, and she kindled 4 very quickly, and that was that. The next day when I went to check there were seven, so she had kindled the other 3 at a later date. It's almost like she had two labours. So the time between the labours was painfree, and just like she was heavily pregnant, but she had to go through the kindling process twice, once for each horn. Talk about rough! lol.


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## BSAR (Feb 13, 2009)

Minnie made it through the night without any more babies. So who knows if there are more. She is still acting a bit funny, probably hurts down there. 
She ate her hay from last night, drank some water but barely touched her pellets. 

My 4-H leader said to not let her have access to pellets until today so she does have pellets now.
My 4-H leader also said to give her watered down Apple Cider vinegar because it helps with delivery and helps the uterine wall. So Minnie has it in her water bottle, mixed in with her pellets and sprinkled on her hay, which is the only way she seems to like it, I also have given her a few teaspoons of it myself which I will continue to do throughout the day to make sure she stays hydrated and all.

Thanks for everyones support! Please keep her in your thoughts.

Amanda


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## Flashy (Feb 13, 2009)

Is she also able to access plain water if she wants it?

If she is still acting funny that may be something to be concerned about. What do you mean by 'a bit funny'? What's different?


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## BSAR (Feb 13, 2009)

No she doesn't have any plain water accesible but I can get her some.

She is not herself, which I know that can come with just having a litter and all, same thing Autumn did. 
She also sits sort of funny sometimes and puts her tail up a bit, its hard to explain. I could probably get it on video.


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## BSAR (Feb 13, 2009)

Minnie has plain water as well now and I am uploading a video of her. She was acting normal, just being lazy in the video so you can't really tell she was acting different except for her being lazy, but she is sore and everything so.

I will get the video up as soon as it loads.

ETA: Photobucket isn't working right now so the video will be up later.


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## irishbunny (Feb 13, 2009)

Aw I'm so sorry


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## BSAR (Feb 13, 2009)

Thank you Irish.
I still dont have the video loaded yet. So sometime tonight it will be on.

I checked on Minnie about 10 minutes ago and she was lying down. I tried to get her to drink some plain water and apple cider water but she didn't drink any. She would just sorta hop/binky away.

My sister and I aren't going to be here tonight we are staying the night at Karlees but my mom knows what to do and knows to call us if something happens.


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## Flashy (Feb 13, 2009)

To be honest, I don't think she sounds very good. Is there a vet you can get her checked out with?


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## BSAR (Feb 13, 2009)

There are some savvy vets but they are at least 30 or so minutes away. The vet we usually go to isn't rabbit savvy.

I think she is fine, after Autumn had her babies it took her about two days to get her appetite back and she just mostly sat in the corner also.


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## Flashy (Feb 13, 2009)

Ok. Maybe someone more knowledgable might chime in, but I do really hope she is ok


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## irishbunny (Feb 13, 2009)

I guess if your mother knows what to do and what to look out for then she'll be fine.


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## BSAR (Feb 13, 2009)

Yeah we aren't leaving until around 4 so we would have had a watch on her for almost 24 hours. My mom can also call my 4-h leader if she is concerned.


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## Sabine (Feb 13, 2009)

So sorry to hear about the baby. I know this litter meant so much to you. You do deserve some luck soon.


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## BSAR (Feb 13, 2009)

Thank you Sabine. I hope we get luck soon!


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## Starlight Rabbitry (Feb 13, 2009)

You said you had to pull the baby out....was is breech? I mean, did it come out face first or back end first?

I too am worried when you say she isn't right. You could do serious damage internally to her if you did not pull the baby out correctly. You can't just pull it out at your leisure, you can only pull during a contraction.

Did you palpate her to see if she has anymore? If you palpate her, did you feel her having anymore contractions? Does in labor will start to have contractions when you palpate them.

Hope your doe is doing better and sorry about the baby.

Sharon


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## BSAR (Feb 13, 2009)

Starlight,
our 4-h leader just said to pull gently on the baby which is what we did. We tried to pull when she was having a contraction but she was being held on her back so it is hard to tell if she was having contractions when we pulled or not. 

No she didn't have any contractions when we palpated her.
Yes the baby was breech.


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## tonyshuman (Feb 13, 2009)

Ahem this is a gross question but you mentioned that the baby didn't have a head. If it was breech and you pulled it out and it didn't have a head, I would be concerned that the head was still stuck inside her. That would be bad and I hope that was not the case. If you think there may still be a portion of the baby inside, she needs to see a vet. I'm sure you did the best you could and I'm so sorry you lost the babies.


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## Starlight Rabbitry (Feb 13, 2009)

*tonyshuman wrote: *


> Ahem this is a gross question but you mentioned that the baby didn't have a head. If it was breech and you pulled it out and it didn't have a head, I would be concerned that the head was still stuck inside her. That would be bad and I hope that was not the case. If you think there may still be a portion of the baby inside, she needs to see a vet. I'm sure you did the best you could and I'm so sorry you lost the babies.



I agree completely although that was not was I was thinking of.....good point though. I was thinking of the fact that she could have internal hemmorraging (sp) and have done damage internally. If she doesn't start to act normal in the next 12 hours, I would take her to the vet.

When you have a stuck kit, you can ONLY pull the baby out when the doe is having contractions. When her contractions stop, you stop pulling. If this is not done and the baby is continued to be pulled out, the doe can bleed internally and this can be deadly.

Please keep a very watchful eye on your doe. I hope she starts to eat soon.

Sharon


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## BSAR (Feb 13, 2009)

My 4h leader didn't say anything about pulling when she had a contraction.

I am sure the head isn't stuck in there because than the body would have been very bloody and everything, that was a concern of ours but hopefully that isn't the case, I don't think it is.

We will take her to the vet if she doesn't continue to improve.

ETA: I guess we should have said the baby had a head but it was just deformed. It did have a head but no ears, eyes or mouth.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 13, 2009)

The baby was deformed. There was no blood on it's front when we pulled it out. No sign of a head that had been intact or anything. I can take pictures of it, that are clearer than the ones we took yesterday....

Emily


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## bat42072 (Feb 13, 2009)

my advice is you should take her to the vet just to make sure... she may end up with an infection and if she is still pregnant and can't pass the babies she can die. trust me i know sombody who had a dog die from this..


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## BSAR (Feb 13, 2009)

Well I am at my friends house for the night but my mom has strict instructions to call the us and our 4-h leader if Minnie is still acting funny. 
And then she would be taken to the vet.


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## Flashy (Feb 14, 2009)

I wonder if maybe your 4H leader could join the forum? Maybe she could share her knowledge and also learn more here 

How is Minnie this morning? I thought about her last night when I went to bed, hoping that she was ok. Please let us know when you can.


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## BSAR (Feb 14, 2009)

My 4H leader does know about the site but she wants me to tell the club about it also.

We haven't checked on Minnie yet today but my mom said she was good this morning and was eating her hay and had dranken water.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 14, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> I wonder if maybe your 4H leader could join the forum? Maybe she could share her knowledge and also learn more here
> 
> How is Minnie this morning? I thought about her last night when I went to bed, hoping that she was ok. Please let us know when you can.



I know my sister already replied, but my 4-H leader probably wouldn't join the site because she is so busy with her kids, and animals, and 4-H and her job. I will ask her though, but I doubt she will. 

Emily


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## FallingStar (Feb 14, 2009)

I think you should tell the group about it! I think the kids at least might possibly join. B
So might our leader.  You never know.
And by the way, I'm in the same 4H group as BlueSky and BSAR. 
But, I really hope Minnie gets better, and hopefully nothing too serious is going on. 

Karlee


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## tonyshuman (Feb 14, 2009)

Thanks for answering my question. Sounds like you've done the best you can for her and she just needs time to heal up for now. Good luck!


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 14, 2009)

Alright i'm giving an update.

When we checked Minnie around 3:30-ish, there was another deformed baby in her cage. She had just given birth to it. It was tiny, and I'm not sure if it was breech. It had a head intact, but it's rear was kinda funky looking and it's belly was really big....
She then birthed that babies placenta and as of about 20 minutes ago she was working on giving birth to another one - whom was breech, but she was able to keep push and she was still working on pushing it out when we left her alone. 

I think she must've stopped the labour and started it again...we were buggin' her too much the first time. So we're letting her do this alone, and checking on her every 45 min. to an hour. She's not bleeding; she's been eating her hay and drinking water. 

We are still watching her in case we think she needs a vet  

Emily


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## flexedHollands (Feb 14, 2009)

First off, id like to say I hope tings work out for you and your rabbit. Luckily a stuck kit is something ive never had too deal with. However, I find the does do better at birthing if you leave them alone as in not even come into the rabbitry, during. Just take a quick peak and leave. I think the deformed kit would have worked its way out in time assisting with the birth is something I would have been very leary of doing. When does are kindling they are hyper sensative to disturbances and enough of either could cause them to have complications or to abandon kits once they are born.

To touch on a kit kindling 24 hours or more apart, that can be due to a doe being impregnated twice. Does have 2 folopian(hope im spelling it right) tubes. When impregnated the fertilized eggs pass through the tubes too her womb, however if bred twice or even 3-4 times while already being impregnated she can also fertelize eggs in the second tube However in some cases those eggs do not pass through the tube and actually get stuck in it thus the kits begin growing in the actual tube, which usually leads to death for both the doe and the kits.Which is why soemtimes breeding more than 24 hours apart can be unwise.

When the kits are kindled from the first pregnacythe kitswho came from the second tube ifthe eggs migrated to thewomb properlymay not be completely ready yet which is why they go a little later.

Ibeleive I heard of kits being born as many as 3-4 days apart.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 14, 2009)

I'm just getting ready to call the emergency vet up in Olympia. The local vet has an emergency number but they won't pick up their dang phone  And Dr. Raymond (the vet)is out of town for a week! He's not coming back till Saturday. I just hope Oly Pet Emergency will be able to help us.

I just got back and the one kit from about 4:45 was still in the birth canal. I was able to get him/her out a little. S/he is breech.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 14, 2009)

Im currently speaking with a Dr.

ETA: Speaking with another doctor, someplace else, at a Small Animal & Exotic vet  with emergency hours and they know what they're doing. 

They're all saying to just pull the kit out....

Emily


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 14, 2009)

Ok I'm on my way out to the rabbitry. Going to try and pull the kit out after I put some mineral oil "down there" like the Dr. said. 

I'm taking with me my cell phone, pencil, notebook, phonebook, wash cloth, warm water, mineral oil...wow. 

I will let you guys know how it all works out...

Emily


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## FallingStar (Feb 14, 2009)

:cry4:

Oh my goodness! Emily, I'm so sorry about Minnie, and the babies.  I can't believe everything went so wrong.
You guy's aren't having a very good breeding year. I'm terribly sorry.
But on the bright side, at least you reached a vet and are getting some good advice from them. 
I hope all goes well! 
Keep us updated!

-
Karleeray::hug:


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 14, 2009)

Thanks so much, Karlee  

As of right now, she is eating grass with the apple cider vinegar/water mix and some sugar on it. The sugar is to get her energy up and it's not like a table spoon, about quarter of a teaspoon. There's also some in her water/apple mixture. She has two carrots, fresh pellets, fresh hay, and a clean cage. 

Our 4-H leader is on her way; should be here by 7:30. 

Will keep you all updated. 
Emily


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## BSAR (Feb 14, 2009)

PLEASE PLEASE pray for her!! ray:ray:ray:ray:ray:ray:ray:ray:


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## aurora369 (Feb 14, 2009)

Wow... I have never had to deal with this, so I don't really have any advice to give you guys.

However, I'll be praying for Minnie to deliver the rest of the babies safely. It doesn't sound like she'll have any survivors, but hopefully she'll come out delivery okay.

--Dawn


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## BSAR (Feb 14, 2009)

Thank you Dawn.


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## FallingStar (Feb 14, 2009)

I'll be praying for Minnie as well. ray:


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## whaleyk98 (Feb 15, 2009)

Yes, good luck and keep us updated. I pray that she will be ok. Im sorry for the babies.:cry1:


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## BSAR (Feb 15, 2009)

Thank you!
I am sure my sister will be updating this soon. But just so you know my 4h leader came and helped get the baby out.
She gave us some Vitamin c.

She said Minnie looked good, it was good she was eating, and to watch for diareaha from the vit. c.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 15, 2009)

Ok my 4-H leader left about 10 minutes ago. 

When she was here we were able to get the other baby out (it wasn't deformed; but was a pencil kit) and a lot of fluid came out. (We'll call my leader A to protect her) took Minnie outside and squeezed her uterus a little to get more of the fluid out and so we have to do that for the next two days and try to get whatever out that we can. A didn't think there were any more babies in her; she's not good at palpating and Minnie had just eaten about a handful 1/2 of grass so she wasn't sure if it was secum (?) or not; but she thinks its not a baby (plus when I palpated Minnie yesterday, all I thought I felt was two more babies...) 

She said that Minnie may get back dysplasia (and that she also may die) from this, but she thinks Minnie has a good chance of surviving because she's eating and she has bright eyes and looks good and is being curious (she almost fell off the grooming stand cuz she was checking things out like always...) 

She gave us a lot of Vitamin C (and a tablespoon equals 5000 miligrams so does anyone know how much equals 250 miligrams?) because we have to give it to Minnie once a day for four days; watch for diarrhea and if the oral VC doesn't work, we have to do it thru vaccine. 

So, does anyone know how much teaspoons, fractions of a teaspoon/tablespoon would equal 250 miligrams of Vitamin C? 

We also have to give Minnie some sugar water and mash (which she already has) to keep her energy up. She said she was looking good though, bright eyes, curious attitude and eating was a great sign. 

I put sugar on the grass Minnie ate and so that will help her. 

ETA: I'm emailing my math teacher to see if he can help me figure out the math for the miligram thingy  

Emily


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## PepnFluff (Feb 15, 2009)

I think if you believe theres a chance of Minnie dying you should take her to the vet, I know you spoke to a exotic's vet but its alot easier to judge a situation being in the flesh . I hope Minnie perks up and I'm sorry to hear about the other kit.


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## BSAR (Feb 15, 2009)

There is nothing the vet can do that we aren't doing. What we are doing now is what the vets would be doing. And what we know is what they would say. 

Plus there aren't many vets around here that are rabbit savvy, and the few that are are at least 30 minutes away.

There are vets close by but they most likely won't know what the proper thing to do is.


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## Starlight Rabbitry (Feb 15, 2009)

*BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote: *


> Ok my 4-H leader left about 10 minutes ago.
> 
> When she was here we were able to get the other baby out (it wasn't deformed; but was a pencil kit) and a lot of fluid came out. (We'll call my leader A to protect her) took Minnie outside and squeezed her uterus a little to get more of the fluid out and so we have to do that for the next two days and try to get whatever out that we can. A didn't think there were any more babies in her; she's not good at palpating and Minnie had just eaten about a handful 1/2 of grass so she wasn't sure if it was secum (?) or not; but she thinks its not a baby (plus when I palpated Minnie yesterday, all I thought I felt was two more babies...)
> 
> ...



Please tell me that you or your leader pulled with the contractions. When a stuck kit is pulled out correctly, there is no excess fluid that comes out... you shouldn't be needing to squeeze her uterus. Sounds to me like a trip to the vet is in need. You said later that the vet can't tell you anything that you don't already know.....well, the doe needs ANTIBIOTICS!!! Not trying to sound rude so please don't take it that way but I feel that you didn't heed my warning about pulling the baby out. It is sad that this doe had to go through this very long ordeal.

You mentioned when you first came on RO that your leader doesn't know a lot about rabbits. Why is it then that you are heeding the advice of your leader than the advice of some very experienced breeders here on RO? 

Again, please don't take this as being rude...it is 2:00am here and I felt that this needed to be said.

Sharon


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 15, 2009)

*PepnFluff wrote: *


> I think if you believe theres a chance of Minnie dying you should take her to the vet, I know you spoke to a exotic's vet but its alot easier to judge a situation being in the flesh . I hope Minnie perks up and I'm sorry to hear about the other kit.



My 4-H leader said that there was a chance. Slim chance. As in probably 5% chance death, 95% life. 

Emily


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 15, 2009)

*Starlight Rabbitry wrote: *


> *BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Ok my 4-H leader left about 10 minutes ago.
> ...



As for what my sister said, the exotic vet is only 16 miles away  So it's not far and it does have emergency after hours. I was the one who looked up directions all that, not her  
Our leader said the vet would just charge us for everything and anything, and to call her first, and she knows how to deal with these types of things. She's saved many does from this problem by giving Vitamin C and sugar water, and it's worked. 

Emily


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## PepnFluff (Feb 15, 2009)

Ok, I don't know anything about birthing etc. But judging on what Starlight has said I would take her to the vet. I think erring on the side of caution is what's best in this situation, If it means spending a few dollars and being told she's ok rather that then not going and her getting worse IYKWIM?


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 15, 2009)

*PepnFluff wrote: *


> Ok, I don't know anything about birthing etc. But judging on what Starlight has said I would take her to the vet. I think erring on the side of caution is what's best in this situation, If it means spending a few dollars and being told she's ok rather that then not going and her getting worse IYKWIM?




And my leader already told me that. Would you like me to have her come on here (if i can get her too) and explain to you what she explained to me?? She has a lot of knowledge about rabbits, this situation, what to do in this situation, etc. She told us that Minnie eating is an extremely good sign. 

Minnie isnot lethargic, she's active, looking around, back to normal more than she was yesterday. Eating plenty of grass and hay. Drinking liquids. We have Vitamin C to give her once a day for four days. 

Didn't anyone read my post about the vitamin C? :?

By the way, over here there's no such things as vet bills being "a few dollars". Exotic vets cost a lot -$300 thru $400. $68 just for coming in. I would know, I called, I talked with the Dr. The Dr. told me the same thing my leader had us do. What would have been different? Oh, I know, the $400 we would of had to spent when my leader told me everything the Dr. told me on the phone. 

Emily


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## bat42072 (Feb 15, 2009)

How is Minnie? I understand that the vet bill will be high... I pray that your bunny will be ok... I am just worried about an infection if the babies were already dead inside her it is a really great possibility that she will get an infection... that is what everyone is worried about ...


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## Flashy (Feb 15, 2009)

OH man  This breaks my heart. Poor, poor Minnie.

An infection won't necessarily show straight away. She might feel bad and it could take a couple of days to show.

I feel so bad for her. I hope she gets the care she needs.


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## BSAR (Feb 15, 2009)

Minnie is doing good. She has been eating grass and hay and dranken water. She now has plain water and sugar water.

We haven't given her any Vit C because we don't know how much 250 miligrams of it is. It is powder. So if anyone knows please tell us!


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## Amy27 (Feb 15, 2009)

I am sorry to hear about your buns. I hope someone comes along to answer your questions about 250 milligrams. Do you have anything in your house that is measured in milligrams. A dropper or anything? Even if it is 10 milligrams you gould measure it out to 250. Since it is powder I would pour it into the top and put my finger at the bottom of the dropper so it doesn't come back out. Also I wonder if you posted that question on the infirmary board if one of the mods over there would know. I am trying to see if I can find something online. Good luck.

ETA: Can you ask you 4H leader if you can mix it with a little water. If you have a syringe or med dropper that would make it easier to measure.


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## Sabine (Feb 15, 2009)

Assuming that the vitamin c has a floury consistence maybe this should help. I only googled for table spoon. So I reckon about 1.5 table spoons
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_grams_of_flour_are_in_a_tablespoon
Hope this helps


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## polly (Feb 15, 2009)

Poor Minnie sounds like a rough ride. Vitimin C is nothing like an antibiotic :? Vit C raises the immune system to help with infection but if she has infection Vit C alone wont get rid of it. If you had tonsilitis would you just take vit C or would u go to get penicillin?! 

I am actually surprised that an EL has had so much trouble seeing the size of them Is sippi much bigger than her? either that or maybe a rogue gene being carried I dont know enough about EL's to say really.

I hope Minnie is ok for you I personally dont think I would risk not taking her to vets for an antibiotic course she stands a much better chance that way.



As an aside our first doe to have kits had her first baby alive she then had stuck babies which they eventually sectioned her around 5 hours later and spayed her they said her womb was very infected and if they hadn't she would have likely died.

. I hope she is fine for you. Ihave asked Bruce my other half who has assited a lot of our does with stuc k kits he said you would usually see the afterbirth and a bit of blood but he has never seen fluid come out afterwards.

At the end of the day its your doe and your decision and I hope she has no problemsbut you can't get angry over the others reactions if she was mine I would have her straight to the vet too


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## BSAR (Feb 15, 2009)

The Vit c is more grainy like sugar. one tablespoon is actually 5000 miligrams.


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## Sabine (Feb 15, 2009)

Oops just realised did the conversion wrong. It's much less then than I thought. At least this is easy to convert .


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 15, 2009)

I asked my mom to pick up 500 miligram tablets of Vitamin C. Hopefully she'll get my message. Then we just cut the tablets in half and it will be 250 miligrams.

Emily


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## tonyshuman (Feb 15, 2009)

I am agreeing with Polly. Vitamin C is not an antibiotic because it does not kill the bacteria itself, like antibiotics (penicillin, chloramphenicol, zithromyocin) do. It only helps the immune system.


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## BSAR (Feb 15, 2009)

We were able to find a conversion.
1/8 a teaspoon was equal to 250 miligrams. 
My mom also got 500miligram tablets.
We gave Minnie the medicine a little over an hour ago and we are getting ready to go feed.

How much would it cost for us to get penicillin for her?


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## bunnybunbunb (Feb 15, 2009)

Here 100cc thing of penicillin is something over $10. It last me till the experation date, longer if I would keep it. I give 1/10th a cc to rabbits around 5lbs. That was what I was told. It is a bit scarey when you first do it but now it is nothing for me to get the bun out, sit it down, wrap an arm around it, stick the needle into the muscle in the back leg and inject. Takes less than a minute. You can give it just under the skin however it comes out of the needle much better in the muscle and the kind I get now is specially for muscle injections.

I always keep penicillin around, you never know what can happen.


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## BSAR (Feb 15, 2009)

And your vet just let you have it without prescribing it to an animal?

I dont know if any vets around here would do that.

Apparently my 4h leader said Vit. C will work just as well as anitbiotics. She knows a LOT about this because she has had it happen to her many times before.


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## bunnybunbunb (Feb 15, 2009)

Vet? I never said anything about a vet. You can, at least in kentucky, get "animal" penicillin at any feed store, they keep it with the vaccinations in small refridgerators. The bottles have pictures of sheep and cows onit.


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## trailsend (Feb 15, 2009)

*bunnybunbunb wrote: *


> Here 100cc thing of penicillin is something over $10. It last me till the experation date, longer if I would keep it. I give 1/10th a cc to rabbits around 5lbs. That was what I was told. It is a bit scarey when you first do it but now it is nothing for me to get the bun out, sit it down, wrap an arm around it, stick the needle into the muscle in the back leg and inject. Takes less than a minute. You can give it just under the skin however it comes out of the needle much better in the muscle and the kind I get now is specially for muscle injections.
> 
> I always keep penicillin around, you never know what can happen.



We always have Penicillin around as well - and a number of other things. You should be able to get it from your Vet and it's not terribly expensive. I can walk in and buy it, I don't know if you can or not but you might be able to. You can also buy it at feed stores in some places - our sells it. We always have needles and syringes too (not just for rabbits for the entire farm) which you can also get at your feed store cheap - and they will last forever because you'll get a lot in a box. Just put them in your emergency kit and leave them for when needed. You can also get them from the Vet.

Hope that helps a little!


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 15, 2009)

I'll see if the vet is open tomorrow to get some penicillin. Otherwise, I'll check to see if the local feed store is open. They're smaller than the one we normally go to, but I'm sure I've seen medicine in there before. 

Emily


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## trailsend (Feb 15, 2009)

It's usually behind the counter so you might have to ask. It will be good to have just in case for you regardless.


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## Pipp (Feb 15, 2009)

trailsend wrote:


> We always have Penicillin around as well - and a number of other things. You should be able to get it from your Vet and it's not terribly expensive. I can walk in and buy it, I don't know if you can or not but you might be able to. You can also buy it at feed stores in some places - our sells it. We always have needles and syringes too (not just for rabbits for the entire farm) which you can also get at your feed store cheap - and they will last forever because you'll get a lot in a box. Just put them in your emergency kit and leave them for when needed. You can also get them from the Vet.



Penicillin is in feed stores here, too, although I prefer to mix it with a saline to keep the needle from clogging and inject it under the skin, you just make a 'tent' somewhere around the neck and shoulders (rotate the spot) and stick her in at an angle.

Don't use the same needle or syringe twice, put the penicillin back in the fridge ASAP (and don't ever expose it to sunlight or much heat), hold the needle filled with penicillin in your hand for a few minutes to warm it up so it's more comfortable for the bunny, and don't use alcohol swabs or anything to clean it, they're not necessary and may do more harm than good. 

And I'd forget the sugar and Vitamin C, just use a little NutriCal. Or a bit of orange, if you must.

sas


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 15, 2009)

Where would I give the shot too her at? Like on her scruff area? I've never given a rabbit a shot before. 


Emily


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## bunnybunbunb (Feb 15, 2009)

Have you had her palpated by someone who can actually tell if there are more babies left? Two babies for an English Lop is very unlikely, not impossible but unlikely. If she has more in her and the fact it has been two days I woud expect infection to have been set in a long time ago. Antibiotics won't save her if it has.

We bred Pomeranians for a few years and Winnie had babies while we where gone. It was an unexpected vacation. We had an "experianced" dog breeder caring for her. She had 3 puppies then the last one got stuck. They waited to take her to the vet till the next day and gangreen had already set in. She almost died because of their ignorance. She had to have a total hystorectamy(spelling?) which ended up being around $400. The vet said the pup was double the size of the others and was alreadydecade into pieces.At least she is alive and the $400was worth it.

Have someone palpate her and if there is anything take her to the vet, anything over30 hours and I would worry because of the trouble. If Minnie dies because you would nottake her to the vet on your consioucious may it rest. This is not the first time you two have been told to take a rabbit to the vet and you ignored the people. Why have an emergency vet on call when there has already been two emergencies(two stuck kits)and you ignored them?

Poor Minnie:cry2


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## Pipp (Feb 15, 2009)

PS: To make it clear, I still think you should see a vet before doing this treatment! You still could be dealing with other internal issues.


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## tonyshuman (Feb 16, 2009)

You can usually get Penicillin G in Tractor Supply stores, but I really think you need to take her to a vet. A vet will be able to tell if she has any babies left in her and what the appropriate treatment is. Paying the fee to take your rabbit to the vet is part of being responsible for her care. If something goes this wrong with a kindling, most breeders will take the rabbit in to the vet to ensure the health of their rabbit.


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## BSAR (Feb 16, 2009)

Bunnybun, you must not have been following along.
There are no more babies in her. Our 4h leader who knows how to palpate, did palpate her last night after getting the last stuck kit out and she said there were no more babies.

We are going to get penicillin tomorrow.

My 4h leader said Sippi most likely isn't very fertile. When he accidenlty bred to Autumn she also only had three babies.


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## bunnybunbunb (Feb 16, 2009)

I read every post, I do not remember reading that she palpated but whatever, I missed it I guess. Hope she does ok.


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## devotedmommy (Feb 16, 2009)

*BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote: *


> A didn't think there were any more babies in her; she's not good at palpating and Minnie had just eaten about a handful 1/2 of grass so she wasn't sure if it was secum (?) or not; but she thinks its not a baby (plus when I palpated Minnie yesterday, all I thought I felt was two more babies...)


I hope this clears up the confusion I have been reading the thread to and watching how Minnie is doing. I know I am new to this forum but not to the world of rabbits and this may be why a lot of people on this forum may think your 4h leader may not be the best to give advice. I hope Minnie gets to feeling better hopefully before your next venture in breeding you guys find a bunny savvy vet! I know its not easy and it is expensive!! Good Luck!


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 16, 2009)

As much as many 4H people/farmers like to be able to self treat animals, when something like this occurs (where no one has really experienced it/it just keeps going wrong)..... it's time to see a vet.


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## BSAR (Feb 16, 2009)

My 4h leader is a good person to turn to. She has experienced this before and she knows what to do so that you don't have to go to the vet.

She said that we still may have to take her there and we know that. But Minnie is doing good and the Vit. C and penicillin is going to help.

If we take her to the vet what will they do? Nothing more than we already are I'm sure. If we think she has the infection she will be going to the vet.


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## Flashy (Feb 16, 2009)

If you take her to a vet there is potentially a lot more than you can do at home, if they deem it necessary. I'm hoping you would never spay a rabbit yourself, and I'm guessing your probably don't have an ultrasound machine, or access to prescription only meds. This could be a very long and slow death for her and I really feel for her. We lost a doe to this many years ago when the internet was not as used and this forum wasn't around, and my vets sucked. It's such a shame with all the knowledge around today you are still refusing to take her. If she went to the vets and everything was fine then you have no worries, and no need to stress her out with vit c or injecting meds when you don't know how, but if you go, potentially you could save her life;


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 16, 2009)

*BSAR wrote: *


> My 4h leader is a good person to turn to. She has experienced this before and she knows what to do so that you don't have to go to the vet.


Wasn't she the one that told you it was ok to breed that older doe?


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## bunnybunbunb (Feb 16, 2009)

A vet would palpate and if he was unsure he would do an x-ray or something to make sure. I personally can palpate and be 100% sure, whether it is "luck" or what I don't know but for someone so "knowledgeable" and not be able to palpate properly and to use an excuse such as she just ate I would never ask them for help again. Odviously they do not know what they are talking about because vitamins, even if you gave 500% of the RD it is not going to work like medicine.

I learned from my dad how to give the shots, unless you have someone willing to show you do not do it on your own. I would not trust the 4-h lady to tell you either. I video taped doing it when I had a rabbit a little under the weather and I used it to show people that asked me how to do it however I do not have it anymore.

Also I have come across rabbits that have skin like leather! I had a line of them all steming from one buck. It was almost impossible to give them shots if they needed it, when it came to them it was either choose to push for 5 minutes and hope not to bend the needle, again, or find an alternitive. Not every rabbit can have the same thing.

Also, again, NEVER let anyone tell you or a vet give you any type of oral penicillin, mostly called moxicillin. I had one vet kill my rabbits for years before I found how what the heck was wrong. This is the reason I only trust myself for the mos part with my rabbits.


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## BSAR (Feb 16, 2009)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> *BSAR wrote: *
> 
> 
> > My 4h leader is a good person to turn to. She has experienced this before and she knows what to do so that you don't have to go to the vet.
> ...


No she was not. Please dont bring that into this.


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## BSAR (Feb 16, 2009)

*bunnybunbunb wrote: *


> A vet would palpate and if he was unsure he would do an x-ray or something to make sure. I personally can palpate and be 100% sure, whether it is "luck" or what I don't know but for someone so "knowledgeable" and not be able to palpate properly and to use an excuse such as she just ate I would never ask them for help again.*My sister was the one who palpated her after she had eaten notour 4h leader. Our 4h leader did it later on, yeah she had still eaten but my 4h leader knows how to palpate.*Odviously they do not know what they are talking about because vitamins, even if you gave 500% of the RD it is not going to work like medicine.
> 
> I learned from my dad how to give the shots, unless you have someone willing to show you do not do it on your own. I would not trust the 4-h lady to tell you either. I video taped doing it when I had a rabbit a little under the weather and I used it to show people that asked me how to do it however I do not have it anymore.
> 
> ...



My 4h leader said if Minnie makes it past four days then she is most likely going to live.


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## Flashy (Feb 16, 2009)

*BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote: *


> When she was here we were able to get the other baby out (it wasn't deformed; but was a pencil kit) and a lot of fluid came out. (We'll call my leader A to protect her) took Minnie outside and squeezed her uterus a little to get more of the fluid out and so we have to do that for the next two days and try to get whatever out that we can. A didn't think there were any more babies in her; *she's not good at palpating *and Minnie had just eaten about a handful 1/2 of grass so she wasn't sure if it was secum (?) or not; but she thinks its not a baby (plus when I palpated Minnie yesterday, all I thought I felt was two more babies...)


Hmm, I'm so confused. From the look of this, Emily said that 'she' implying, your 4-H leader, was not good at palpating. Yet Amanda just said Emily was the one doing the palpating? I'm so vERY confused.

*BSAR wrote:*


> My sister was the one who palpated her after she had eaten not our 4h leader. Our 4h leader did it later on, yeah she had still eaten but my 4h leader knows how to palpate.



How is Minnie doing?


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## BSAR (Feb 16, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> *BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote: *





> When she was here we were able to get the other baby out (it wasn't deformed; but was a pencil kit) and a lot of fluid came out. (We'll call my leader A to protect her) took Minnie outside and squeezed her uterus a little to get more of the fluid out and so we have to do that for the next two days and try to get whatever out that we can. A didn't think there were any more babies in her; *she's not good at palpating *and Minnie had just eaten about a handful 1/2 of grass so she wasn't sure if it was secum (?) or not; but she thinks its not a baby (plus when I palpated Minnie yesterday, all I thought I felt was two more babies...)





> Hmm, I'm so confused. From the look of this, Emily said that 'she' implying, your 4-H leader, was not good at palpating. Yet Amanda just said Emily was the one doing the palpating? I'm so vERY confused.





> *Okay i'm sorry i didn't realize she said that right there. My 4h leader is getting better at palpating is what she should have said, she does know how to do it though. My apologies I though my sister said she palpated her after she ate. Sorry.*
> 
> *BSAR wrote:*





> My sister was the one who palpated her after she had eaten not our 4h leader. Our 4h leader did it later on, yeah she had still eaten but my 4h leader knows how to palpate.





> How is Minnie doing?


We are just getting ready to go and feed the animals so I will let oyou know in about twenty minutes how Minnie is doing.

What is a sign of Uterine Infection anyway?


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## Flashy (Feb 16, 2009)

I look forward to the update 

I am no expert, but I would imagine you are looking for discharge, maybe distended abdomen? High body temperature, lethargic, lack of appetite, etc.


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## BSAR (Feb 16, 2009)

Okay thanks. 
We haven't gone out yet but I will look to see if she has any of those symptoms.


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## Flashy (Feb 16, 2009)

Hopefully someone will come and clarify a bit more but I just thought if you were going out now it might be worth having some idea. Just basically look for anything out of the ordinary.


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## tonyshuman (Feb 16, 2009)

I'm pretty sure it's hard to diagnose uterine infection (pyometria is another possibility). Elevated temperature, rapid breathing and heart rate, lethargy, signs of being in pain, not eating, soreness or swelling in the abdomen: these could all be signs. However, I've heard of it not being diagnosed until the rabbit goes in for a spay because rabbits are very very good at hiding illness. If she appears sore when you attempt to palpate her, it would definitely be a concern. I still think that you should have a vet look at her. An exam will probably cost you around $40, maybe $100 if x-rays are taken. The medicine could run $30, and blood work (if needed) is usually around $50. So even if she needs bloodwork, meds, and x-rays, it will probably come to under $200. I know that's a lot of money for a teenager, but perhaps your parents could help you out.


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## naturestee (Feb 16, 2009)

I'm concerned about the amount of fluid that came from her uterus. What did it look/feel like? From what I understand rabbits don't usually have much liquid in the womb when they give birth. Between that and the stuck kits I'd be very afraid of infection or the fluid could have collected due to physical damage causing inflammation (swelling).

Chances are you won't see signs of a uterine infection until it's too late. It's strictly internal. She may have an elevated temperature and generally act uneasy/uncomfortable. She may have a little pus or blood around her genitals but not always, sometimes not till the infection is raging, and she may be able to keep herself clean enough that you wouldn't notice it. Internal infections like these are very dangerous and more likely to cause systemic infections (blood infections) which are usually fatal. The likely damage caused by the stuck kits would make this more likely, as blood vessels could be open to the infection.

If she does have a uterine infection, it might require spaying her depending onhow far it's gone. Sometimes the uterus is too damaged to save or the infection is too much of a danger to just treat with antibiotics. If it's a relatively mild infection it might be ok to treat her only with antibiotics- generally injectibles like penicillin. 

Like others have said, Vitamin C will not treat an infection at all. It can slightly boost the immune system but with the birthing trauma and stress that could already be shot.

Please take her to an experienced rabbit vet, or at least find a more experienced breeder in the area to look at her for you, someone who has been through similarproblems before. Personally I'd have a vet do a full examination and xray or ultrasound.

ray:


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## BlueGiants (Feb 16, 2009)

One of the first signs that I saw in a doe with a Uterine Infectionwas a distinctivly bad smell around the genitals. But they can also shift from foot to foot while resting (pain and discomfort),tooth grinding - especially while being handled, elevated body temperature, off feed/water, etc. (as previously mentioned...)

It can be treated much more effectively and quicker through a vet. It's not just her ability to breed that is at stake, a systemic infection like that can kill her.


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## BSAR (Feb 16, 2009)

Minnie is eating, she doesn't seem to drink anything but we have been giving her fluids. Her genitals didn't smell when I checked. She also doesn't seem to have a fever, although I don't know how to check.

Her abdomen does seem a swollenish looking but she doesn't seem to be in pain when we touch it. Just hops away like she always does. 

We are still going to get penicillin today and if we think she is still not getting better than we will take her into the vet tomorrow or Wednesday.

Yeah that is a lot of money, I only have around 60 dollars in my wallet. My mom won't be able to help out because she doesn't have money to go towards that. My sister and I have lots of money in our bank accounts but my dad would have to come down after work, he lives an hour or so away, and then we have to sign something to get money out of the bank.


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## BSAR (Feb 16, 2009)

*naturestee wrote: *


> I'm concerned about the amount of fluid that came from her uterus. What did it look/feel like? From what I understand rabbits don't usually have much liquid in the womb when they give birth.



There was a bit of fluid. I don't know what it felt like because I wasn't doing it, my 4h leader was and I have no clue why someone would touch it. It also looked like it might have been some pee also. 

My 4h leader told us to see if we could get any more out yesterday and today, that way she wouldn't get an infection.

My mom tried today but she did it to gently, nothing came out. She should have used a bit more pressure. So I will probably have her try again later.


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## Flashy (Feb 16, 2009)

Ouch, wouldn't that hurt? Hasn't she been through enough already? Can you not get her proper treatment? Could you maybe call and discuss with the vets your financial situation and see what they say? You may be able to pay over time.


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## BSAR (Feb 16, 2009)

Yes I can have my sister call the one exotics vet and see what they say.

I also emailed my 4h leader about Minnie's conditoin right now and asked her if we should take her to the vet and also if we should get penicillin. Which we are anyway so.


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## naturestee (Feb 16, 2009)

Her abdomen looks swollen? It really shouldn't. No animal should have a "swollen" look to the abdomen after giving birth. Her belly should look somewhat smaller from the babies being out. Jazzy looked like her belly just disappeared.

I really don't recommend squeezing onher internal organs. If you aren't really knowledgeable about internal anatomy you can squeeze the wrong thing. You might be squeezing on the cecum or bladder. And sometimes organs can rupture- there are warnings about this for expressing bladders, that doing it wrong and too hard can rupture or otherwise damage it.

Can your vet workout a payment plan if you need to? What about Care Credit, would your mom be willing to get credit through them if you pay her back? If you followtheir payment plan they don't charge any interest.


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## BSAR (Feb 16, 2009)

When we get the fluid out basically we just gently (but with some pressure) rub a hand going from her rib area to her genitals. Just so if there is any thing it will move down so it comes out. 
That is how my 4h leader did it and explained it.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 16, 2009)

WOAH! 

Let me clear something up here! 
First off my sister is wrong about the palpating thing! My 4-H leader has palpated before but she's not good at it! She palpated after Minnie ate, NOT ME! 

Most of the fluid that came out was just pee. It wasn't from her uterus. It smelt like pee, and looked like pee. 

It was just pee. 

There is no pus/blood around her genitals. She's eating minimal pellets, but lots of grass, hay, and drinking water. 

We do have the emergency vet on call. When I spoke with the DR. on Saturday night, she told me everything my leader told me when she got here. The vets would of just done the same thing. We are going to go and get penicillin. 

An exam will not cost $40. I spoke with the vet, she said it will be $68 for an emergency check-up w/o appointment. But yes, we do have money for a vet!!! My sister was wrong! We have about $800...


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## BSAR (Feb 16, 2009)

We have $800 in the bank though!!
And Emi our 4h leader is getting better at palpating!!


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## Elf Mommy (Feb 16, 2009)

I'm going to move this thread to the infirmary. I hope Minnie is doing all right!


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 16, 2009)

*bunnybunbunb wrote: *


> Have you had her palpated by someone who can actually tell if there are more babies left?*Both my leader and I palpated her. I palpated her today, i didn't feel anything. *Two babies for an English Lop is very unlikely,*There were actually three *not impossible but unlikely. If she has more in her and the fact it has been two days I woud expect infection to have been set in a long time ago. Antibiotics won't save her if it has. *We are going to go get Penicillin today *
> 
> Have someone palpate her and if there is anything take her to the vet, anything over30 hours and I would worry because of the trouble.*Alreadypalpated. I felt nothingbut squishyness. Regular feel of an abdominal area.*If Minnie dies because you would nottake her to the vet on your consioucious may it rest. *OUR LEADER SAID WE HAD TO CALL HER FIRST BEFORE TAKING MINNIE TO THE VET. Our leader is EXTREMELY knowledegable, she knows what she's doing. She has lots more experience than most here do.*This is not the first time you two have been told to take a rabbit to the vet and you ignored the people. *Excuse me? What other times would those have been? We're listening to our leader and you guys. I would rather listen to what my leader says, because she knows what she's doing and how to save does without taking them to the ER. *Why have an emergency vet on call when there has already been two emergencies(two stuck kits)and you ignored them? *Why have one on call? I meant I have her dang phone number, jeez. I did NOT ignore the vets....I Spoke with two different Drs. The first one said to pull the baby out; the second one said to pull the baby out. Guess what? I listened to the vets. They know what they're doing; ya'll on here saying "Don't pull out the baby!" *
> Poor Minnie:cry2


My answers are in bold!!!!


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 16, 2009)

Alright we are getting ready to leave to go to a feed store and get penicillin. We have to ride our bikes there because our mom wouldn't take us.  

But we are getting it nontheless.  It's not far either, maybe like 5 miles away. We should be back in about an hour! 

Emily


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## BSAR (Feb 16, 2009)

Okay so I have a question about penicillin.

Where/how do we give it to them?

How much?
how often?

And it can be for like pigs, horses and all sorts of farm animals right?

Me and my sister are going to give Minnie her Vit c for today and then ride our bike to the feed bin, couple miles away, and get penicillin. Since our mom won't take us. We made sure it was open and they had it so we will be back in a couple hours with it. please respond to my questions above!!


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## bunnybunbunb (Feb 16, 2009)

Sounds m to like your 4-h leader is not as knowledgable in rabbits as many of us here but you think as you wish.

How much does she weigh? I give 1/10th a cc/mil per roughly 5lbs. I do not know the dose a vet would give however a breeder friend of mine said that was proper does for a rabbit 4-6 lbs, roughly.

Give it in his back leg muscle in the muscle where the back leg curves around, I can not remember the name of it for my life. Make sure the needle is not to big or to small, I forget the gauge I use. I have tried a few diffrent sizes and I find the smaller shorter needles bend to easy and the bigger ones are scarey :nerves1I hate needles.


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## NorthernAutumn (Feb 16, 2009)

I have read this whole thread, and am going to point something out here:

-You have had a sick rabbit since Friday. She has not received proper medical attention for 4 days!


- Neither of you sound confident in your rabbit's treatment. Since you are not willing to take advice from the experienced breeders here, and we all think your 4H leader's advice is poor...

.... call up your vet, and get their advice.

Make an examination appointment.
Or don't bother at all, if you honestly can't.
She will die, or live. 
Those are the options: death or life. She might get through this on her own, she might not.

Minnie has a better chance at life if you see a vet.


PIPP gave you the instructions for penicillin on post 92 of this thread.
Go read them.

Here is the drug calculator:
http://homepage.mac.com/mattocks/morfz/rx/drugcalc.html


Go back, and read this whole thread again, slowly. There is a lot of good information here. We cannot tell you any more than this.

READ: pg. 4. Look at what all the mods, Flashy, and Trailsend wrote to you. This is excellent advice.


Good Luck, Minnie.


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## pamnock (Feb 16, 2009)

I've had a number of cases of dystocia over the years I've been breeding. The most important point is to get the doe to the vet within 24 hours of the onset of labor if you suspect that she has retained a kit. An oxy/calcium injection can be given that works with the doe's own hormones. Once this window of time has passed, artificial hormones are of little help and a c-section may be required. Waiting costs $$$$ and risks the loss of the doe.

A kit partially sticking out can be gently pulled out working along with the doe's contractions. A large amount of thin bloody fluid gushing out is normal, and not a cause for alarm unless the doe is heavily bleeding. Breech births are normal for rabbits and are not the cause of difficult births.

It's of major important for breeders to learn to palpate so they can check does for stuck kits after kindling.

A vet should instruct you on properly giving injections. Penn Gis fatal if accidentally injected into the blood stream. There is a chance of hitting a major leg vein, when injecting into the leg. Penn G is of little help if the doe is retaining remnants of kits. There may not always be signs of infection. I had a doe that had retained a kit for 10 days and the kit had begun to putrefy. The doe had no discharge and was eating well and acting fine. The vet had to do a c-section to remove the kit or we would have lost her once the infection got worse.

Nutri Cal is a great product to have on hand for does having difficulty birthing and have become weak/shaky and need glucose and electrolytes. 



Pam


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## DeniseJP (Feb 16, 2009)

Any updates?

Denise


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## BSAR (Feb 16, 2009)

We just got back from getting the Penicillin.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 16, 2009)

*bunnybunbunb wrote: *


> Sounds m to like your 4-h leader is not as knowledgable in rabbits as many of us here but you think as you wish.* She is veryy very knowledgeable. Do you still think we're in that other group as last year? no. We're in an all rabbit group now. *
> 
> How much does she weigh? I give 1/10th a cc/mil per roughly 5lbs. I do not know the dose a vet would give however a breeder friend of mine said that was proper does for a rabbit 4-6 lbs, roughly. *I'd say she weighs about 8 or so pounds. The Penicillin we got is in 100 ml. So how much ml? The syringe we got goes to 12 ml. *
> 
> Give it in his back leg muscle in the muscle where the back leg curves around, I can not remember the name of it for my life. Make sure the needle is not to big or to small, I forget the gauge I use. I have tried a few diffrent sizes and I find the smaller shorter needles bend to easy and the bigger ones are scarey :nerves1I hate needles.*I'm not sure if the needle is to short or not? It's about an inch. The container of the needle says 18 X 1A. What does that mean? *


Answers in bold.


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## Pipp (Feb 16, 2009)

Ack!! Do NOT give the penicillin into the muscle! 

Actually, I'd rather you just get a vet to do it.  You don't even know that penicillin is what she needs. 

I've NEVER given penicillin anywhere but as a subcutaneous shot under the skin at the nape of the neck. You make a 'tent' and slip the needle through the skin and keep it away from the flesh.

As Pam said, hitting a blood vessel can mean instant death. You don't fool around with this stuff!! 

I'm honestly sorry it was even mentioned! 


sas :nerves1


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## BSAR (Feb 16, 2009)

*Pipp wrote: *


> Don't use the same needle or syringe twice, put the penicillin back in the fridge ASAP (and don't ever expose it to sunlight or much heat), hold the needle filled with penicillin in your hand for a few minutes to warm it up so it's more comfortable for the bunny, and don't use alcohol swabs or anything to clean it, they're not necessary and may do more harm than good.


Just wondering as why we can't use the same needle twice? The lady at the feed store only gave us one. So it looks like we will have to go back and get some more then.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 16, 2009)

*NorthernAutumn wrote: *


> I have read this whole thread, and am going to point something out here:
> 
> -You have had a sick rabbit since Friday. She has not received proper medical attention for 4 days!
> 
> ...


Answers in bold once again.


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 16, 2009)

*BSAR wrote: *


> *Bo B Bunny wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *BSAR wrote: *
> ...


If she was involved with that - it's going to be important to note.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 16, 2009)

*Pipp wrote: *


> Ack!! Do NOT give the penicillin into the muscle!
> 
> Actually, I'd rather you just get a vet to do it.  You don't even know that penicillin is what she needs.
> 
> ...




Okay, see this is why I'd rather just stick to my leaders' advice. 

First penicillin is ok to give, now it's not. I haven't given her any and now I guess I wont. At least I have it on hand in case it's needed though. 

Emily


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## BSAR (Feb 16, 2009)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> *BSAR wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *Bo B Bunny wrote: *
> ...


And I said she wasn't. So..... besides that has NOTHING to do with this.


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 16, 2009)

*BSAR wrote: *


> *Bo B Bunny wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *BSAR wrote: *
> ...


Don't cop an attitude with me. I remember that the 4H leader WAS involved with that somehow. NO ONE likes this situation and believes the doe needs to go to the vet. It's gotten several people upset at how this was handled.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 16, 2009)

*pamnock wrote: *


> I've had a number of cases of dystocia over the years I've been breeding. The most important point is to get the doe to the vet within 24 hours of the onset of labor if you suspect that she has retained a kit. An oxy/calcium injection can be given that works with the doe's own hormones. Once this window of time has passed, artificial hormones are of little help and a c-section may be required. Waiting costs $$$$ and risks the loss of the doe.
> 
> A kit partially sticking out can be gently pulled out working along with the doe's contractions. A large amount of thin bloody fluid gushing out is normal, and not a cause for alarm unless the doe is heavily bleeding. Breech births are normal for rabbits and are not the cause of difficult births.
> 
> ...



There isn't a retained kit though.  

The bottle of Penn we have says "Penn G potassium and procaine hydrochloride react to form penicillin G procaine" So is it Penn G or Penn P? Or???

Emily


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 16, 2009)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> *BSAR wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *Bo B Bunny wrote: *
> ...



No the 4-H leader was not involved with that. That was our old 4-H leader who didn't know anything about rabbits and she wouldn't ever say anything about breeding like that. That was a friend of ours who said it. 

Emily


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## BSAR (Feb 16, 2009)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> *BSAR wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *Bo B Bunny wrote: *
> ...



Our current 4h leader had nothing to do with Lily!! Neither did our last 4h leader since she didn't know anything about rabbits. 

We will talk to our current 4h leader and our mom about going to the vet with Minnie tomorrow.


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## naturestee (Feb 16, 2009)

Penicillin is safe to give if the person is properly trained and the dose is correct. Pipp is rightfully concernedabout yougiving shots without any training. Please have a vetor vet tech show you! I also agree that it should be given subcutaneously (sub-q)= under the skin, not inthe muscle. Shots in the muscle can be dangerous if done wrong and should be left to professionals. 

Needles should be changed each time for the same reason they do in hospitals- prevent contamination. Wouldn't you freak out if your doctor reused an old needle on you, even if it had been used on you previously? There is no good way to clean a needle 100% and even if there's no other patient to cross-contaminate, the body fluids that are on the needle create a perfect place for bacteria to breed.

Please read Pam's post!


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## Sabine (Feb 16, 2009)

I am glad you're taking her to the vet. It is probably better to have a specialist to look at her then and there rather than trying to follow conflicting advice given from a distance. And the one advice, going to the vets, at least is something everyone agrees on! I hope Minnie is going to get through this alright. i wish you all the best.


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 16, 2009)

Alright then. I knew it was someone you knew. 

Just remember that a lot of 4H leader/breeders do tend to worry about not going to the vet over the whole "pet" aspect. You only have a few bunnies where they might have hundreds..... We just don't want to see her suffer and/or die.


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## Pipp (Feb 16, 2009)

BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote:


> *Pipp wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Ack!! Do NOT give the penicillin into the muscle!
> ...



Emily, you're smarter than this. 

Its obviously okay to give it when USED CORRECTLY and WHEN NEEDED. 

You don't know if she has retained a kit or parts of a kit. As Pam said, penicillin won't help. 

Your 4-H leader can not be counted on to know for sure. She's come up with some pretty bad advice so far. If you'd rather listen to her over an ARBA judge, I have serious concerns with your judgment. 

I think an 18-gage needle is too big for a rabbit, but penicillin can get clogged. I've had good luck mixing the stuff with saline, but this isn't a usual procedure, so let me check into it. 

ETA: Naturestee's post is great. Let's stick with that. 


sas


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 16, 2009)

*Pipp wrote: *


> BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote:
> 
> 
> > *Pipp wrote: *
> ...


Well my mom just said we can't take her to the vet. She doesn't care what anyone on here is saying and we've told her everything over and over again. She just wants to stick with whatour 4-H leader says but I don't want too. 

Emily


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 16, 2009)

Okay, question...

Should we give her the Penn or not? 
How much? It came in a 100 ml bottle. She weighs 8-ish lbs. That drug calculator didn't help at all, because it doesn't measure in mil, it measures it some other form I've never even heard of. 

The syringe is 12 ml. 

ETA: *On the bottle it says "intramuscular injection only" ???? Should we still give it to her Sub-Q, though? *

Emily


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## Maureen Las (Feb 16, 2009)

*BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote: *


> Okay, question...
> 
> Should we give her the Penn or not?
> How much? It came in a 100 ml bottle. She weighs 8-ish lbs. That drug calculator didn't help at all, because it doesn't measure in mil, it measures it some other form I've never even heard of.
> ...



I have been gone all day and have just come back to this thread.

It is very disconcerting to see this kind of behavior going on in the infirmary 
I am not used to it . 

If members ask for advice then we attempt to give answers . Most members are receptive to it. You have been given answers and are not receptive . 

The rabbit needs a vet 

intramuscular pencillin will kill your rabbit so don't give it; the vet can instruct you on subqutaneous injections . 
You can work this out with your mom 
End of story


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## Starlight Rabbitry (Feb 16, 2009)

*BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote: *


> Okay, question...
> 
> Should we give her the Penn or not?
> How much? It came in a 100 ml bottle. She weighs 8-ish lbs. That drug calculator didn't help at all, because it doesn't measure in mil, it measures it some other form I've never even heard of.
> ...



This whole reason right here is why she should have been taken to the vet in the first place. The vet would have been able to give you antibiotics and shown you how to properly administer them.

I also feel that no matter what anyone says on here, you aren't going to listen and will just consult your 4-H leader. Well, I just have to tell you that I am glad you have a leader to turn to. Let me just say this: from a previous post it seems as though your 4-H leader has to o.k. a vet visit. IT IS YOUR RABBIT! So far, you seem to have put her life in jeopardy. I really hope she is going to be o.k.

BTW, I have been raising Dutch and Jersey Woolies since 1991...that's 18 years of knowledge and I still have to bring animals to the vet on occassion as I need anitibiotics sometimes. I do not trust anything that isn't straight from my vet. 

I really hope your 4-H leader would join as I would like to hear her expertise.

Sharon


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## Pipp (Feb 16, 2009)

12-gage is definitely huge, so hold off on the penicillin. The feed store stuff is meant for large animals. Hang tough, I'll consult with a few people for you. 


sas :expressionless


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## BSAR (Feb 16, 2009)

Anything yet Pipp?
We haven't given her any and tomorrow we are going to talk to our mom about taking her to the vet in the afternoon. 

Hopefully she will say yes, I emailed my 4h leader twice about Minnie but she still hasn't replied. So if she hasn't by 8:00 pm then I will call her.


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## tonyshuman (Feb 16, 2009)

First, remember that the penicillin-G procaine solution that you have is meant for large livestock. This treatment is by no means the best option (which would be taking her to a vet and having the vet supervise the treatment), but it may possibly work. I would personally never give antibiotics to a rabbit without veterinary supervision. However, we are going to do the best we can to help you. 

The bottle should say how many "units" it has per mL. The concentration of an antibiotic is frequently described by the number of "units" as opposed to grams or milligrams. In any case, you will want to follow the dosing instructions given on this page:
http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~jwmoore/bicillin/bicillin.htm
Thus, assuming she is more than 2.5 kg (5.5lb), you will want to give her 150,000 units of the drug diluted with an equal volume of sterile saline subcutaneously (not intramuscularly). The link in the library on giving sub-q fluids should help you see how to do this, since having a vet or vet tech instruct you is out of the question. 

An 18-gage needle should be fine although a bit large. You can ask nicely and explain the situation at a pharmacy if you go to buy sterile saline for dilution of the penicillin G. Also, please do not re-use the needle. This can introduce bacteria into her system, which she definitely does not need. At the very least, sterilize it with rubbing ethyl alcohol (not isopropyl or methyl) between uses.

Please also note Randy's comments in this post:
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=34065&forum_id=16

To me, this treatment is like assuming that you might have a broken leg because you fell down the stairs, and instead of going to the doctor waiting several days and deciding to treat it by wrapping it in plaster-coated strips of cloth. The treatment may make sense medically, but you do not have the training to determine if anything is wrong, what might be wrong, and what the best treatment is if there is something wrong. 

I strongly encourage you to take her to the vet. You can call and ask to bring her in so they can look at her sometime during the day when they have a spare moment--that way it wouldn't cost as much as an emergency appointment. If that is completely out of the question, please use the suggestions we have listed.


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## BSAR (Feb 16, 2009)

Well we would make an appointment for later in the day. After me and my sister get out of school. Is that an emergency appt.?


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 16, 2009)

*tonyshuman wrote: *


> First, remember that the penicillin-G procaine solution that you have is meant for large livestock. This treatment is by no means the best option (which would be taking her to a vet and having the vet supervise the treatment), but it may possibly work. I would personally never give antibiotics to a rabbit without veterinary supervision. However, we are going to do the best we can to help you.
> 
> The bottle should say how many "units" it has per mL. The concentration of an antibiotic is frequently described by the number of "units" as opposed to grams or milligrams. In any case, you will want to follow the dosing instructions given on this page:
> http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~jwmoore/bicillin/bicillin.htm
> ...


So where can I get Saline solution stuff? The bottle of Penn says it has 300,000 units per ML. So, if my math is correct, wouldn't that be .5 ml to equal 150,000 units? And then of course mix it with .5 ml of Saline solution? 

Emily


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## Pipp (Feb 16, 2009)

A 12-gage is way too large. Pam uses a 20 gauge, I think Randy uses 21 or 23? 

Pam also says that the recommended dosage is 1 ml per 100 pounds of body weight. Most people use .2 to .4 cc's for an average 4 lb. rabbit.

Do you have anybody who can show you how to do the injection? A nurse? We have a video, hopefully someone can pull it up, but you really should have someone show you. 

To get a smaller needle means a vet visit regardless. 

The saline isn't urgent. You may have the needle clog, but just try again. 

How is the rabbit now? 

If you have photos of the 'partial' kit, can you send them to Pam? The main concern is whether a kit or parts of a kit have been retained. 

sas


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 16, 2009)

*Pipp wrote: *


> A 12-gage is way too large. Pam uses a 20 gauge, I think Randy uses 21 or 23? *Curious, how is a 12-gauge needle bigger than a 20, 21 or 23? Plus, I said that the needle has an 18 on it...not a 12. I don't know why someone said it was a 12-gauge?*





> *We do have another needle, it's alot skinnier, longer than the one we got from the feed store. Unfortunately the package it was in is long gone, so I don't know how big it is.*
> 
> Pam also says that the recommended dosage is 1 ml per 100 pounds of body weight. Most people use .2 to .4 cc's for an average 4 lb. rabbit. *How do I convert ml to cc's? *
> 
> ...



My answers are in bold, Sas   

Emily


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## Pipp (Feb 16, 2009)

Yeah, if she's not hopping much, definitely just head to the vet and ignore the rest of the post. She may have internal damage. At best, she could be in pain from the stuck kit removal. (You may have to ask for painkillers).

But the vet will check her over. Just ask for instructions re: giving a shot for future reference. (Or watch closely and ask a lot of questions). 

Good luck with her. And good on ya for caring and doing the right thing. I hope she's okay. ray:

Please let us know how it goes! 


sas :hug2:

PS: Still send Pam the pic of the kit, and also print it or put it on your phone or whatever and take it with you to the Vet's.


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## devotedmommy (Feb 17, 2009)

Hello, I hope your Minnie is feeling better. I have not really been raised in a 4H community I know of the organization but not really specifics. I thought they teach and prepare you for these situations and teach how to care for sick animals? Do they just teach how to breed? How come you guys need your mom's permission if you have the money for a vet? I am not trying to be rude I am sure you are worried about your Minnie just like everyone else. I just don't understand.


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## Pipp (Feb 17, 2009)

devotedmommy wrote:


> Hello, I hope your Minnie is feeling better. I have not really been raised in a 4H community I know of the organization but not really specifics. I thought they teach and prepare you for these situations and teach how to care for sick animals? Do they just teach how to breed? How come you guys need your mom's permission if you have the money for a vet? I am not trying to be rude I am sure you are worried about your Minnie just like everyone else. I just don't understand.



It's not easy preparing for and treating all ailments. 4H leaders are just community volunteers. They may be knowledgeable, or not so knowledgeable. Or they may just be operating under older beliefs passed down from their own mentors. The area of rabbit health is certainly not black and white. Opinions differ. People may have different ways of doing things, and both may have elements that are 'right' or 'wrong', but unless one follows the latest veterinary and scientific medical journals religiously, it's probably just an opinion. There are LOTS of vets who don't.

And I would think that there is a level of respect expected between a parent and a child. I don't think if I was that age I'd go against my parents wishes just because it was my money. I would hope to be able to work it out with them in a reasonable manner, however. 

I do believe Emily has this under control. It's best that we refrain from further comments (aside from solid medical information that may be relevant) and let the girls work it out and report back to those of us concerned. 

:thanks:


sas :clover:


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## Flashy (Feb 17, 2009)

I hope Minnie is doing ok this morning. Please update us when you can.

x


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 17, 2009)

Me too. I have been thinking of her a lot!


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## bat42072 (Feb 17, 2009)

how is minnie today?


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## Flashy (Feb 17, 2009)

*bump* You must be up by now  I've waited all day for an update knowing you're 8 hours behind, and I'm impatient now! I might have to wait until morning 

I hope she is doing ok.


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## Sabine (Feb 17, 2009)

Oh it was just a "bump" I thought there was an update on Minnie. How is she?


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## BSAR (Feb 17, 2009)

Sorry we had school.
Minnie was seeming much much better this morning!
She actually drank alot of water on her own and was moving about much more!

My mom checked on her about two hours ago and she said there were hardly any pellets left over which Minnie has barely been eating much of them!

So this is good news! I don't think we will have to take her to the vet but we are going to continue keeping a close eye on her! 
Please continue keeping her in your thoughts and prayers!


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## Sabine (Feb 17, 2009)

This is great. I am glad Minnie is doing better


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## Maureen Las (Feb 17, 2009)

We're all happy that Minnie is doing better but keep an eye on her


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## BSAR (Feb 18, 2009)

Minnie is still doing great!

However my 4h leader said (I emailed her the uterine infect. symptoms) that she most likely does have the infection. And to keep her on Vit C for a week and give her vinegar water for a few months. And as long as she is eating and acting more normal that is good. 

She also said her belly will be distended, and her genitals sore for a while.


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## bunnybunbunb (Feb 18, 2009)

Vitamin C is not going to help the infection, she NEEDS anti-biotics. Sheesh!


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## BSAR (Feb 18, 2009)

Well she said she most likely did, but I think it is already going.

Minnie's stomach isn't as swollen anymore and she is acting even more normal.

Plus we have Penicillin so we can use it if we need to.


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## naturestee (Feb 19, 2009)

Are you still using the penicillin? If ANY infection is suspected, she really should be kept on antibiotics. Still, this is such a dangerous type of infection that I'd prefer her to see a vet even though she's starting to feel better. We have no idea if penicillin is the most appropriate antibiotic for this, it just happens to beeasily boughtand works in some cases. What if she'd really do better on something else? I have known rabbits to die from uterine infections, it's not something to let sit and wait.


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## BSAR (Feb 19, 2009)

She isn't on the penicillin yet but she is on Vit C.


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## PepnFluff (Feb 19, 2009)

I'd take her to the vet, lavender, my old friends rabbit did die from a uterine infection, she didn't get to the vet early enough and was put down . The later she goes to the vet the bigger the bill will be if she has a infection.


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## BSAR (Feb 19, 2009)

We will take her to the vet if it doesn't continue to improve. But it seems to be, her abdomen isn't as swollen and everything.


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## Luv-bunniz (Feb 19, 2009)

Umm..wow. I really cant believe, and am quite disgusted, that a person such as a 4-H leader would tell you that vinegar water and Vit C is likely to solve a uterine infection. Its probably going to be very painful in the mean time. IMO this is animal cruelty, I am just shocked a 4-H leader who probably is looked up to and is a big part of rabbit community would not tell you to go to the vet ASAP. Hopefully Minnie doesnt get sicker/die because she wasnt given the basic rights - veterinary attention. If this is what your mother is like with the rabbits (refusing the vets) maybe it was a good thing the litter wasnt a sucess, I suggest until your mother is happy to take you to the vet dont have any more rabbits or litters.


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## tonyshuman (Feb 19, 2009)

I agree that she needs to go to the vet for a possible uterine infection. If it progresses too far, she may have to have the uterus removed, which would be bad for you because I assume you intend to continue breeding her. Rabbits can hide the pain of a uterine infection very well. I have heard of a rabbit going in for a routine spay and having the infection discovered, without any warning in her outward symptoms. The medical term for this kind of infection is pyometra.


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## NZminilops (Feb 19, 2009)

Just quickly, if you plan to breed her again in the future, I would take her to the vet now.

She may have some remaining tissues from the pregnancy that, if left to rot and cause infection etc etc, could make her barren.

Not sure if there is a rabbit equivalent to a human D&C (where they scrape out your womb after a miscarriage), but she may need something similar.

Vitamen C wont be doing anything if she has an infection.


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## Flashy (Feb 19, 2009)

I find this so sad  Poor Minnie not getting the treatment that she needs  It made me think of the 5 Freedoms we have in the UK (from the RSPCA), and how she is not getting those 5 freedoms because she is not getting the treatment she really needs right now.

Please update us on how she is when you can.


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 19, 2009)

I'm wondering what the heck the vinegar is for? Does this woman/man think that it's going to clean out her uterine walls from DRINKING it?


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## NorthernAutumn (Feb 19, 2009)

Personally, I think that the very idea of giving a rabbit vinegar water and Vitamin C is a far worse idea than anything anyone here on RO has ever suggested. That cannot possibly heal her properly. 

Is that all you guys are doing for her? What is going on, exactly? Is there more to the story than what you are telling us?


It has been 6 days since this has happened. I know that you can't tell if she is hurting or not, because rabbits hide their pain VERY well. You also can't visually see if she is infected or not (Infections don't always cause swelling)

An infection may make her barren, unable to become pregnant or give birth again. At the very worst she may die. It is important to find out what exactly is going on inside her body.

The vet will do an examination for infection, then help you choose the correct medication and treatment for her. They will teach you how to give any shots that you might have to give her. Bring the penicillin along with you too.

Please, for Minnie's sake, take her to the vet. Only irresponsible, backyard breeders would let this go on for so long without a recognized treatment method. Right now, you guys are making yourselves and your rabbitry look really bad by not getting proper medical attention. 

I really hope you'll prove to be responsible breeders. Even the best breeders take their rabbits to the vet when there is possible infection. It's the right thing to do!


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 19, 2009)

Does anyone know what the theory of the vinegar is? Seriously, it sounds like this leader is some sort of witch doctor wannabe.......


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## polly (Feb 19, 2009)

Pennie the only thing cider vinegar does is help the rabbits to absorb nutrients. it WON'T help wth uterine infection and neither will vitamin c.


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 19, 2009)

Well, if i put vinegar in my bunnies' water...... they'd drink less and get sick from that.

I understand home remedies..... we do them ourselves with the horses, and sheep, goat..... 

If she's getting better, that's great, but I would have had her to the vet the night she kindled and had trouble.

I understand how it's so expensive to take them in, and how bad the economy is. I just think in such a dire situation, maybe something could be worked out.

Poor girl. Give her a nose rub from me.


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## NorthernAutumn (Feb 19, 2009)

If this is a money problem, you could always offer to do some work for the vet, like cleaning kennels or what not in exchange for seeing and treating Minnie. 

This may only require an examination fee; I don't know how else she would be tested, but you can always ask and see what the payment options are. 

I think the vet might be open to helping out two young people trying to become responsible breeders. Just approach politely and explain the situation.


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 19, 2009)

That's a great idea!


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## BSAR (Feb 19, 2009)

The vinegar water helps to strengthen the uterine walls and also helps with vinegar, I don't know why we still have to give it to her then.

Minnie's stomach isn't as swollen any more and she is acting so much more like herself. We aren't going to breed her in the future.

The reason my 4h leader has been saying don't take her to the vets unless we really think it is necesary is because she doesn't want us spending hundreds of dollars on Minnie, because she won't be able to be bred again. 

We can always go out and buy a new brood doe.
And yes we have wanted to take Minnie to the vet but my mom keeps saying no, she is listening to my 4h leader not anyone on here. 

Plus, my 4h leader didn't say for sure Minnie had the infection. I am actually thinking that Minnie might not have it because she isn't showing any more symptoms that she was showing. I hope she doesn't have it but if she continues to have a swollen stomach than we will take her in to the vet.

ETA: Many vets around here don't have high survival rates of rabbits surgeries and all.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 19, 2009)

*NorthernAutumn wrote: *


> Personally, I think that the very idea of giving a rabbit vinegar water and Vitamin C is a far worse idea than anything anyone here on RO has ever suggested. That cannot possibly heal her properly.
> 
> Is that all you guys are doing for her? What is going on, exactly? Is there more to the story than what you are telling us? *I'm sorry, but EXCUSE ME? You think we're lying and not telling the god dang truth? What do you THINK we're not telling you, cause I would love to freakin' know. What do you mean what is going on exactly? We're telling you EVERYTHING. *
> 
> ...




Our leader said if she didn't make it 4 days, she would most likely die. Well guess what, she's acting normal now and she's made it way past the 4 day mark. On Tuesday, she acted as though she was in pain, but now she acts as if this thing never happened. 

LuvBunniz, it's NOT animal cruelty. It's not like we're not feeding her, or not giving her meds, because we ARE. That may beanimal abuseover in your neck of the woods, but since you don't know the US, don't assume. And it's not like you'd get my number to call AC on me anyways. I'm doing nothing wrong. It's called home remedies and it's working.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 19, 2009)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> Does anyone know what the theory of the vinegar is? Seriously, it sounds like this leader is some sort of witch doctor wannabe.......



No. She is extremely knowledgeable in this kind of stuff. It's *not* like she's making this up. We already told you guys that she's saved many does by giving them the stuff we're giving Minnie. She knows what she's doing and has MUCH more knowledge that many doctors I've EVER spoken too. 

Why can't anyone understand that? 


Emily


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 19, 2009)

*NorthernAutumn wrote: *


> I think the vet might be open to helping out two young people trying to become responsible breeders. Just approach politely and explain the situation.



Completely out of the question. You wanna know why? Look at our economy..do you think someone is going to give FREE treatment? NO. Everything's all about $$$ these days. 

The Exotic place I talked to will charge a $68 EMERGENCY fee, not sure about regular. But they're not going to give us pay plans (NO vets in our area do that; no matter what the situation is, none.) 

I'm not saying that we wouldn't take her to the vet. I'm just explaining the vet's stand in all this. 

Emily


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## NorthernAutumn (Feb 19, 2009)

*BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote: *


> *NorthernAutumn wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Personally, I think that the very idea of giving a rabbit vinegar water and Vitamin C is a far worse idea than anything anyone here on RO has ever suggested. That cannot possibly heal her properly.
> ...


Y'know Emily, I don't know why you flip out all the time. That was an honest question, as you guys have not given very informative updates in the last few days. 
We are all wondering if any additional care was given.

I'm sorry you take everything as a personal attack. The whole situation is sad, and everyone on here is trying very hard to support you guys, despite your aggressive reactions.

Why not offer your labour to the vet, as I suggested. That's called barter, and many people do it in tough times. You can at least ask...


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 19, 2009)

*NorthernAutumn wrote: *


> *BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *NorthernAutumn wrote: *
> ...


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## BSAR (Feb 19, 2009)

What is a barter anyway?


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## Maureen Las (Feb 19, 2009)

Everyone calm down please. !!!!

There is a difference in thinking here that is causing so much animosity.

Most of us believe in giving a rabbit, any rabbit, the most compassionate, loving , respectful treatment possible. Most of us feel pain when a rabbit feels pain. 

Your 4H leader is teaching you to breed for a purpose and then move on. The animal bred then becomes disposable. This is the way people treat farm animals and livestock in many parts of the country . Rabbits are oftentimes considered livestock .
You don't spend a fortune on livestock if you can replace it. 

The problems here is that if you were onANOTHER forum with other people you would have a lot of people agreeing with you .

But that is not the tone of RO. We are out for the individual rabbit and the rabbit's needs. 

I just spent $600.00 on my rabbit's dental work because he is like my child and I love him.I will go without things for myself so my rabbit can go to the vet. 

Individuals who feel rabbits are livestock do not do that. 
it is a different mindset altogether 

Maureen


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## NorthernAutumn (Feb 19, 2009)

ETA: Sorry Maureen we posted at the same time...


*Amanda*, barter is the word used to describe what happens when two people trade their abilities.
Eg.
A farmer will trade two bushels of apples to another farmer for a chicken. Both people get something good out of the deal.

My idea was that you girls could offer to do some hard work for the vet, like picking up dog poop, cleaning kennels, walking dogs, whatever they need. In return, the vet would look at Minnie. Both you girls and the vet would get something out of it.


*Emily*, I am very sorry that you find this discussion so upsetting. However, on the Internet, most people consider TYPING IN ALL CAPITALS and using *BOLD* to be rudely yelling at someone. I *don't* think that is what you are trying to do, I hope? 

I understand that you are upset. RO members are too. We all want the best for Minnie. We are all trying to give you our best ideas to make sure she gets better. 

However, she is your rabbit. Not mine. It is not my responsibility to make the choices, but I want to be sure that you guys have all the information you need in order to make your choices well.

Whatever you decide is what will happen. Good luck to you both.

_
edited for clarity _


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## naturestee (Feb 19, 2009)

Barter is what people did before coin/paper money was widespread. They would trade goods or services. Example- a farmermight trade eggs for cloth. At my work, you can say we barter when we ride-share: one person drives one day, another the next, etc. 

I don't see what meds you are giving her. Vinegar and Vitamin C are not medications, they are legally considered as dietary supplements when used in this fashion.

I don't know how it is in your area, but animal cruelty laws in many areas include denying medical care to a sick/injuredanimal to be cruel and inhumane. For example, in my city a few months ago the police confiscated a dog with a large tumor on his foot that had gone untreated and was causing the dog to limp. It was benign, it wouldn't have killed the dog, but it did make him uncomfortable. He was brought to the shelter and the lump was removed. I think he was returned to the owner, who was developmentally disabled and might not have known enough to take the dog to a vet.

This also includes livestock. If a farmer has an obviously sick or injured cow, he is expected to have the vettreat it or put it down humanely. There's a lot of livestock vets around here because farmers can and douse their help.

Now, I'm not calling you cruel. It's impossible to really judge without seeing things first hand. But I am very uncomfortable with the care Minnie is getting.

I think Angieluv made a good point- is she livestock to you or a pet? Would it make a difference in the quality of care you give her? If you consider your rabbits livestock, are you willing/able to make the hard choices including humane euthanasia for animals that a vet could cure but you can't on your own? I'm not saying Minnie needs to be euthanized either, but you need to figure out what you will do for her or your other rabbits and what you won't.


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 19, 2009)

I think Emily was using bold to show the answers apart from the questions she was responding to. However, I got the "flipping out" feelings too LOL! 

I think that Maureen explains it very well. Some breeders aren't going to feel the "PET" or "Part of the family" sort of thing. 

Ultimately, she is your rabbit, you have to take care of her, and accept the outcome of your decisions for her. 

However, on this forum, we tend to go with the "if you aren't sure.... take her to the vet" theory. For one reason, we cannot be sure online and we are not vets. For another, we are very sensitive (for the most part) to rabbits as Maureen has said.

If you ask for our opinion, you're going to get it....... and arguing with 99% of the forum about it won't help.


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## bunnybunbunb (Feb 19, 2009)

"The reason my 4h leader has been saying don't take her to the vets unless we really think it is necesary is because she doesn't want us spending hundreds of dollars on Minnie, because she won't be able to be bred again."

Omg, so because Minnie can't breed again she isn't worth it? You can just buy another doe to refuse medical care to?

As for the other time you where told to take a rabbit to the vet, that I remember, was on SC. Your rabbit got an eye infection and you IGNORED it. All you did was clean it. Yet another case of untreated infection, I think I see a pattern.

If you do not have the money to take a rabbit to the vet you odviously do not have the money to breed properly. Lets say you have a litter born and something happens and part of the babies are say attacked once weaned? No vet care. What if you have a doe that had trouble birthing and ripped a few legs off? Suffering babies.Or like something I went through where a doe ATE all her babies but one and left it with no legs, tail or ears and part of it's skin gone? What then since you do not have the money to take them to get them put down?

If you have money but your mom will not let you use it to treat a rabbit you should not be breeding till you can.


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## whaleyk98 (Feb 19, 2009)

> *BSAR said:*





> "The reason my 4h leader has been saying don't take her to the vets unless we really think it is necesary is because she doesn't want us spending hundreds of dollars on Minnie, because she won't be able to be bred again.
> 
> We can always go out and buy a new brood doe."


I was also very taken back by this statement . :shock:*"We can always go out and buy a new brood doe":?*Well thats not very fair to Minnie right now is it? Thats like saying that its ok to let her suffer and die because you can just go buy another one! She cant breed again so oh well. Thats what people running puppy mills or backyard breeders say..:shock::shock::shock::shock::shock::shock::shock:


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## Starlight Rabbitry (Feb 19, 2009)

*BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote: *


> Please pray for her.
> Gosh, why isn't anyone who is helpful on???
> Emily




I just want to point something out. You both ask for people's help here and there are lots of EXPERIENCED breeders and owners here that are trying to help you and all you want to do is listen to your leader? There is something wrong here. 

In my own opinion, I think that you girls are best suited to doing rescue work or just being pet owners. You really shouldn't be breeding anymore. I understand that everyone learns and that you have to start somewhere. When I first started I had a mentor whom I trusted but I also had many other people who I listened to also. I did a TON of online research as well as read every book out there. I have contacted the American Rabbit Breeders Assoc. too many times.

I really hope that you stop breeding rabbits till you become a little more responsible. Responsible breeders take their rabbits to the vet when it risks the life of the rabbit. Obviously some things can be mended with home treatment but there are some things that a vet should be seen for. 

Rabbit breeding is by no means meant to be profit making. I can't begin to tell you the amount of money I have invested and have lost. Time off of work, vet bills, sleepless nights. Currently, I am helping hand raise a litter that I think mom just isn't producing enough milk. Thank heaven that I have the experience to deal with that. 

My point in this post is to ask you not to come on here and tell us that our advice is not as good as your 4-H leader's when you asked for the advice in the first place.

Sharon


Edited for spelling.....I'm tired


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 20, 2009)

*Starlight Rabbitry wrote: *


> *BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Please pray for her.
> ...



I think this is a huge part of the problem here. They ask, we all respond, worry, try to think of things to do to help them and then it's like we're ignored.

Also, I have to agree on the breeding. We have sheep and a goat and bunnies and my son is in his 10th year of 4H... I would LOVE to have lambs and to have kept his ewes to breed from 2 years ago.... but we don't have the facilities for it, we don't know enough about this stuff, and I can't afford a C-section for a ewe. He has to buy his lambs.


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## Flashy (Feb 20, 2009)

I truly hope Minnie is ok.


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## pamnock (Feb 20, 2009)

*BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote: *


> No. She is extremely knowledgeable in this kind of stuff. It's *not* like she's making this up. We already told you guys that she's saved many does by giving them the stuff we're giving Minnie. She knows what she's doing and has MUCH more knowledge that many doctors I've EVER spoken too.
> 
> Why can't anyone understand that?
> 
> ...





I can understand that you have an adult who is willing to take the time to help you out to the best of her knowledge. 

As far as the information we have been provided with, the doe appears to be in no imminent danger and no animal welfare statues are being violated.


We are here to help and support, not to alienate. Once again, we have a number of_posters_ reacting emotionally and providing no realassistance in this situation except for posting extensively and making it more difficult to to pick out the critical information that we need to address this situation.

I would have liked to have seen the doe go to the vet to be certain that she hasn't retained any pieces of kits.However, this isn't always evident on a sonogram, so doesn't guarantee anything but a big bill.

If she is showing any signs of infection, I would most _certainly_ like to see her go to the vet, but I haven't seen anything in the poststhat I read that indicated she is suffering from an infection. Thehome remedies being offered by the 4-H advisor arenot hurting anything and certainly do not justify the disrespectful attitude being generated towards her. This is a shameful example to our younger members.

At this point, she hasn't beentaken to the vet and _appears _to be fine. Girls, please keep us updated on her condition so that we can offerfurther adviceif needed.




Pam


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 20, 2009)

*pamnock wrote: *


> I can understand that you have an adult who is willing to take the time to help you out to the best of her knowledge.
> 
> As far as the information we have been provided with, the doe appears to be in *no imminent danger* and no animal welfare statues are being violated.
> 
> ...




So it's normal to have a kit stuck in the birth canal for 3 or more hours? and having them 2 days apart? 

I think the real concern that someof us "non-breeders" have is that she could very well have had an infection.


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## Maureen Las (Feb 20, 2009)

*BSAR wrote: *


> The vinegar water helps to strengthen the uterine walls and also helps with vinegar, I don't know why we still have to give it to her then.
> 
> Minnie's stomach isn't as swollen any more and she is acting so much more like herself. We aren't going to breed her in the future.
> 
> ...


Thisis good leadership in 4H?????
Maureen


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## NorthernAutumn (Feb 20, 2009)

Redundant...

Was just asking whether penicillin is still a go, or if the "wait and see approach" is being adopted instead (keeping in mind lack of visual indicators for infection...)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is what I see as the challenge at this point in time:

- Pipp, Pam, Tonyshuman, angieluv, polly, Starlight Rabbitry, and others (breeder and non-breeder alike) all indicated on pages 4-5 of this thread that it would be best to have a dose of penicillin properly administered to Minnie.

- It was felt that while not overly harmful, vinegar, sugar water and Vitamin C are not aggressive enough to effectively combat any potential infection.

- If no one was able to give the penicillin effectively, the recommendation from these experienced people was to take Minnie to the vet so that the shot could be given safely. (Advice as of Sunday)

-This is a week later. Minnie has *not recieved a shot of penicillin* yet. Thus, the advice given was not taken. OK... so what next?


- The girls have told us that there appears to be swelling of the abdomen and genitalia. 
- Minnie is apparently eating well, and hopping more readily than on Tuesday, when she appeared to be suffering back dysplasia.
- No body temperature readings have been done, and no nasty smell is evident.

*The question is*, can you visually assess whether or not an infection has occured?

- information from the last few pages from the same members suggests that *no*, you cannot necessarily visually see if infection has occured.
- _posts 112, 113, 114 _all suggest possible infection indicators, most of which cannot be seen by eyes.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We are now debating whether to err on the side of caution by now getting proper antibiotics (ie. penicillin) into Minnie. However, if cost is prohibitive from seeking a vet's help, should the penicillin injection be done now? The girls have the penicillin. Do they administer the shot now?

_OR
_
Is it advisable to wait and "see", (recognizing that infection is not always shown on the body or in behaviour)? How will the girls know for sure if she is infected? Are we suggesting that Minnie's body should combat potential infection on its own? If so, then let's state that.

(I think we all agree that Vitamin C and sugar/vinegar water is not the best available remedy. NO harm will stem from it, though.)


*If the vet is out of the question due to financial limitations...
What is the next step? Wait and see, or penicillin (given by the girls)?*



***Breeder vs. non-breeder isn't really the point, IMO
Most of members assumed that the penicillin would have been given on Sunday. As it was not, members promoted the vet, in accordance with the opinions given by the aforementioned knowledgeable people. 
Both breeders and non-breeders are encouraging that everything is being done that can be/should be done (financially and health-care wise).


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## whaleyk98 (Feb 20, 2009)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> *pamnock wrote: *
> 
> 
> > I can understand that you have an adult who is willing to take the time to help you out to the best of her knowledge.
> ...


Ok, Im a little confused. I understand that this forum is to help and give information. This :*PAM wrote*:"*We are here to help and support, not to alienate. Once again, we have a number of non-breeders reacting emotionally and providing no realassistance in this situation except for posting extensively and making it more difficult to to pick out the critical information that we need to address this situation."
*to me sounds like we are supposed to sit down and shut up and keep our worries and opinions to our selves.Help was asked for and was gladly given...or tried to be given anyway. A lot of people were taken back by the "disposable" comment and for the lack of gratitude with the help from all these experienced peoplefor thissituation.A lot of great advice was given..which was ignored, and a lot of people were saying the same thing to these girls over and over which was this rabbit probably needed to see a vet. All of this which apparently fell on deaf ears. I am a breeder,so the comment of non breeders doesnt apply, but we are all in agreement, breeders and non, that this rabbit should have seen a vet for her own safety. We were all concerned for Minnie and what her outcome would be. Im very happy to hear that she is doing well, but I cant believe that because people are getting offended or upset about this situation that we are being told not to act emotionally to this?? What? How can you NOT? Yes we ARE here to help and support but if you are NOT willing to take the help that you ask for...then dont ask. If you are going to get upset because someone turns out to actually care what happens to the rabbit then maybe you shouldnt ask. I dont know....maybe Im just a bit emotional today. I probably took something the wrong way.....Forgive me if I have said too much.And again, Im glad to hear that Minnie is doing well. JMO


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## BSAR (Feb 20, 2009)

*whaleyk98 wrote: *


> > *BSAR said:*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't like that idea either! I wanted to take her to the vet but she is way better now. I am don't even think she has the infection. Her stomach is almost back to normal.

That is what big time breeders do because obviously they don't have money to take them to the vet one after another. That is what my 4h leader is saying, she says if we keep the bad ones it will make us look bad. I don't care because at least I love the animals. And we are only breeding Mini Rexes now so who cares.


Sorry if it doesn't make much sense but I don't feel like explaining it all the way.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 20, 2009)

*NorthernAutumn wrote: *


> *Emily*, I am very sorry that you find this discussion so upsetting. However, on the Internet, most people consider TYPING IN ALL CAPITALS and using *BOLD* to be rudely yelling at someone. I *don't* think that is what you are trying to do, I hope? *no no no no. Definitley not. When i reply like this, I type in bold so you can see what i say to what you said *
> 
> I understand that you are upset. RO members are too. We all want the best for Minnie. We are all trying to give you our best ideas to make sure she gets better.
> 
> ...


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## pamnock (Feb 20, 2009)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> So it's normal to have a kit stuck in the birth canal for 3 or more hours? and having them 2 days apart?
> 
> I think the real concern that someof us "non-breeders" have is that she could very well have had an infection.



I have dealt with a number of cases of "stuck" kits. Dystocia is not uncommon. In most cases, the remains pass without incident. Ideally, I would have liked to have seen the doe taken to the vet because the 24 hourtime frame within the onset of birthis the optimal time to intervene. 

The concern that the doe had an infection was speculation. 

The 4-H leader is helping the girls and feels that medical intervention is not necessary at this time.



Pam


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 20, 2009)

*pamnock wrote: *


> *BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote: *
> 
> 
> > No. She is extremely knowledgeable in this kind of stuff. It's *not* like she's making this up. We already told you guys that she's saved many does by giving them the stuff we're giving Minnie. She knows what she's doing and has MUCH more knowledge that many doctors I've EVER spoken too.
> ...




Thank you, Pam. 

We will keep you updated. In fact, I'm going to take a video of her today so you guys can see how she is. 

I Felt her belly yesterday and it's no longer distended and is back to normal. We let her out of her cage while we were cleaning and she was having a lot of fun. Getting into things and she even gave Sippi a kiss right before she tried climbing back into her cage cuz she was hungry (which Mandi then put her in her cage) 

Emily


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 20, 2009)

*bunnybunbunb wrote: *


> "The reason my 4h leader has been saying don't take her to the vets unless we really think it is necesary is because she doesn't want us spending hundreds of dollars on Minnie, because she won't be able to be bred again."
> 
> Omg, so because Minnie can't breed again she isn't worth it? You can just buy another doe to refuse medical care to?*That's what our 4-H leader believes, not us. We completely disagree with this. We would NEVER do that to Minnie. You have to understand that our 4-H leader treats her rabbits like livestock, she eats them, too. WE do not think of our rabbits as livestock; we think of them as pets. *
> 
> ...





> If you have money but your mom will not let you use it to treat a rabbit you should not be breeding till you can.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Feb 20, 2009)

*Starlight Rabbitry wrote: *


> *BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Please pray for her.
> ...



Kay first off, I asked for advice here and when NO ONE was responding I called my leader. Ok? 

I don't understand why you have to be so rude. By saying we shouldn't be breeding; that's not up to you. We ARE responsible. WE ARE NOT backyard breeders. 

Jesus. I'm so done with this. 

Emily


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## bunnybunbunb (Feb 20, 2009)

*BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote: *


> *bunnybunbunb wrote: *
> 
> 
> > "The reason my 4h leader has been saying don't take her to the vets unless we really think it is necesary is because she doesn't want us spending hundreds of dollars on Minnie, because she won't be able to be bred again."
> ...



If you like I can get a few of the people that where on sc at the same time to come on so no one thinks I am lying. Some are already members here and where in on the post telling you to get the rabbit to the vet when you refused to get the eye checked out. Yes, I was on sc.

Ok, you have money, however if your mom will not let you use it on a rabbit that needs to see a vet it is not you do not even have it. What I said is until you are allowed to use your money for vet care when needed you should not be breeding.

I was not rude until I saw you clearly where ignoring people. Yes, you got the penicillin but have you gave her any? She may not have an infection now but all this has probably weakened her immune system and she may get sick later due to it.

I will post where I feel I need, no matter who the post is by. I am not going to sugar coat things, you asked for help and we tried to help. Now people are getting mad and it is not just me, I have the messages from other people who feel the same as I do.

Samantha


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## Pipp (Feb 20, 2009)

Actually Samantha, you've been asked not to post in this thread by it's creator, we ask that you respect that. 

And the Infirmary advice was to NOT give the rabbit penicillin. The length of the thread caused a lot of us to just respond to questions in posts and not view the whole story. A vet may have administered (or instructed on) such treatment, but its something not recommended for the inexperienced. 

As for the topic in general, it's done.






A few final comments... a new thread should have been started in the Rabbitry or Infirmary in the first place under a title indicating that assistance was needed. That's first and foremost. The doe was particularly endangered during the first 24 hours, she would have been better served by vet treatment at that time for her comfort and safety. 

Because the discussion wasn't readily identified as a health issue, and because of the length of the thread, it got off-track re: answering specific posts (ie: the use of penicillin, etc) rather than the treatment of the rabbit. 

There are deep philosophical differences between the farming and pet communities, neither side should be vilified or ridiculed for their beliefs. 

Opinions and experiences are welcome, but we ask that people don't lengthen, confuse or inflame any issues with redundant, misinformed or aggressive posts.

Its also not our business how much money someone has or what they're choosing to spend it on, or what health care they believe in. 

All we can do is offer our own experiences and research. 


:thanks:


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