# Keep Naomi in Your Prayers



## MyBabyBunnies (Feb 3, 2009)

Naomi has been oddly quiet for a few days but I didn't think too much of it, she's been eating fine and just as spunky when it came to treat time. This morning I woke up and Naomi has a slight head tilt.

I took the afternoon off work and rushed her to a vet (new vet for me but I am sticking with this vet, she is awesome!). They got her in right away and there are a few possibilities. She thinks it could just be an ear infection so she gave me antibiotics and told me to come back on Saturday. If there is no improvement she will run a blood panel to look for EC.

Keep your fingers crossed its just an ear infection...


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 3, 2009)

Oh hun, I'll be thinking of her! ray:


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## mouse_chalk (Feb 3, 2009)

Yikes- how scary... I'll be thinking of you and little Naomi... :hug:


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## JimD (Feb 3, 2009)

Sending prayers and good thoughts!

:hug2:


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## LuvaBun (Feb 3, 2009)

Oh Laura, how worrying. Poor little Naomi.

How is she in herself - eating? Pooping etc?

Which vet did you go to?

Keeping you both in my thoughts

Jan


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## MyBabyBunnies (Feb 3, 2009)

She is eating ok but not as much as before. She seems to be pooping and peeing fine. The poor girl. She has no balance. I think I am going to have to change out her litterboxes because she falls everytime she tries to jump into them.

I took her to Dr. Steele.


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## Pipp (Feb 3, 2009)

Aww, so sorry Naomi is sick. 

What antibiotics did Dr. Steele prescribe? 


sas :clover:


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## MyBabyBunnies (Feb 3, 2009)

Novo-trimel


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## Pipp (Feb 3, 2009)

MyBabyBunnies wrote:


> Novo-trimel



That's the Canadian version of Bactrim. 

If you've started it, give it for the duration, I don't think you want to start and stop any antibiotic early, it exacerbates the resistance problems, but you may want something more aggressive, like Bicillin.

Hope she's better very soon! 


sas urplepansy:


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## Pet_Bunny (Feb 4, 2009)

*MyBabyBunnies wrote: *


> I took her to Dr. Steele.


Dr. Steeletreated Pebbles when she had sneezing and head tilt problems. We had a culture done when regular antibiotics failed. Dr. Steele is very good with the follow ups.


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## MyBabyBunnies (Feb 4, 2009)

I really like her approach. And I like how she brings up her rabbit in the exam. Somehow knowing they have the same type of animal is reassuring. And I thought it was Dr. Steele that treated Pebbles, and I figured I would try a new vet although at the time I just called and asked if anyone could see Nao today. I REALLY like that her follow up exam is free. And I really like how she makes the extra effort to squeeze you in to fit your needs.

I just find it so hard to see Naomi like this, she is moving okay but she looks so off balance. I had to remove some of the toys and the litter boxes from their pen and put in low trays so she doesn't hurt herself. I'm praying for a better morning, I can't stand seeing her like this.


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## Pet_Bunny (Feb 4, 2009)

The first 24-48 hours should show if the antibiotics are working. Pebbles improved within the first day of her medication and over the 2 weeks she got better and better.


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## LuvaBun (Feb 4, 2009)

How's Naomi doing today?

Jan


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## SOOOSKA (Feb 4, 2009)

Ah Laura, I'm sorry to hear about Naomi.

I will keep her in my prayers for a speedy recovery. She certainly couldn't ask for a better Mommie to take care of her.

Susan


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## MyBabyBunnies (Feb 4, 2009)

Her head is worse. Yesterday she could still straighten it, today its 'stuck'. But her eyes don't seem to be moving as rapidly up and down and I'm hoping that's a good sign. Her balance is crap but she can still move.

She isn't eating much but she must be drinking because her coat still feels good (I know what a dehydrated bunny feels like). I'm going to syringe a bit to her tonight and pray she starts to feel better.

Pipp, I am going to ask if we can try bicillin on Saturday but I didn't want to ask about it yesterday because I didn't know much about it besides the name and the effective in treating absesses. I'm going to go Saturday armed with information and beg her to let me try it.

One question, is bicillin only safe in the injectible form?


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 4, 2009)

:tears2:come on girl! come on!


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## Pet_Bunny (Feb 4, 2009)

Poor Naomi. :cry2

Good that the rapid eye movement is less intense. Is her balance due to staggering, andcircling or is she fallingand rolling down? How tilted is her head ... 1 o'clock, 2 o'clock?

I would worry about the loss of appetite. Feed plenty of fresh greens soaked in water, and keep her warm.

Dr. Steelehas her reasons for prescribingthe different medications. She is very open and will discuss the different treatments. She knew about Zithromax (ra7751 - Randy's suggestion) when I approached her about using it for Pebbles sneezing. However she convinced me it can be used after a culture test andif aggressive treatment is needed.

Local breeders from town, have treated Head Tilt with injections of Ivermectin and Bytril, with success to save their favorite bunnies.


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## MyBabyBunnies (Feb 4, 2009)

Her head is at 2 o'clock.

She's not rolling except when she moves too suddenly or when I put her down after giving her medicine. It's heart breaking to see her like this.


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## Pet_Bunny (Feb 4, 2009)

*MyBabyBunnies wrote: *


> after giving her medicine. It's heart breaking to see her like this.


I hope the medicine would start working soon and some improvements will show. ray:


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## MyBabyBunnies (Feb 4, 2009)

I've been sitting out her for 45 minutes just watching and while she is not herself, she nibbled occasionally on food, she does lay in her stretched out relaxed position. She even did a lap around her run, only losing balance when she started to move. Ironically she went the opposite way I thought she would. Animals typically turn the direction their heads point, she went the opposite way.


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## JimD (Feb 5, 2009)

ray:


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 5, 2009)

She was compensating for her unbalance. Poor baby. I hope it gets better really soon.


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## LuvaBun (Feb 5, 2009)

Poor girl. She must be feeling so strange. How is Chase coping with her?

I know how worried you must be Laura . I'm keeping all positive thoughts coming your way!

Jan


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## dquesnel (Feb 5, 2009)

Sending positive thought to you and Naomi's direction. It may take another 48 hrs to see improvement. I hope this treatment works- Hope your girl improves soon!


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## Pipp (Feb 5, 2009)

Laura, can we put this in the Infirmary? Good experiences, info for others. 

S


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## MyBabyBunnies (Feb 5, 2009)

I'm going to cautiously say that I see some improvement today. I've been syringe feeding her a pellet slurry and water just to ensure she gets something in her system. Today she is still not eating as much (I haven't seen her touch pellets) but she is nibbling on hay consistantly and the oats I give her. It's a big relief to know she's eating enough to keep her system moving.
She's a lot more active today. Her head is still tilted at about 1-2 o'clock (more when she rests) but she has been stretching out like normal and she's been very curious! I lined the x-pen with cardboard because she flipped over once and got her foot stuck between the bars. Now if she flips against the edge she can't get any legs stuck. And she was quite interested in following my dad as he walked around her pen.

Keep your fingers crossed but I think we may be on the right track.

Pipp, you can move it if you want.


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## tonyshuman (Feb 6, 2009)

Being more active and eating on her own is a good sign! Here's hoping there's no more rolling and she improves.


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 6, 2009)

I'm going to move it if that's ok. I think it's really important to share things going on with tilt! I know it's hard to talk about, tho.

We're thinking of you and her and having more good vibes sent can't hurt!


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## ra7751 (Feb 6, 2009)

Hi,

I only have a moment....more later. First, EC doesn't cause head tilt directly. It compromises the immune system to a point it allows opportunistic bacteria to invade. In every tilt except head trauma, we have found bacterial infections in the middle and/or inner ear regardless of EC status.

Bactrim (and all Sulfanomides) are generally useless in rabbits. Plus that family of drugs usually causes some rather significant gastric issues. Baytril is pretty much ineffective too....but I am testing a related drug, Marbofloxacin, as it is showing no signs in resistant issues. I am usually treating ear infections with Chloramphenicol now. But many vets won't use that drug as it carries some possible severe side effects....not for the rabbits but for humans by just handling the drug. Zithromax may be effective if it's pasteurella. All penicillins and cephalorsporins are safe only as an injectable.

I will try to post more details tonight. Ear infections must be treated with all guns firing....most vets are far too conservative in treating them. Ear infections can, and do, migrate to the brain stem.

Randy


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## MyBabyBunnies (Feb 7, 2009)

Naomi's head tilt is still present but we are slowly improving. Over the last 2 days she has been on an uphill road. She had pretty much stopped eating for 2 days but with some syringe feeding and time for the antibiotics to kick in, Naomi slowly started to eat on her own again.

At first she would only nibble on the leafy bits of the hay (mostly alfalfa) but yesterday she started chowing down on parsley and cilantro. Today she is eating that plus she started nibbling on pellets too.

The vet gave me some critical care, I am syringe feeding her a little bit each day just to ensure she is getting enough in her system. Once I see her appetite pick up some more I will stop this too.

I was given more antibiotics which she will stay on for a total of 28 days. If there is no more improvement, we will try a new antibiotic but since this one appears to be working thus far, we're going to keep going with it.

She has stopped rolling and her eyes only do that side to side motion when she is stressed (like at the vet) but it is a lot less than it was on Tuesday. She is even walking normal and able to hop and turn around without falling. She can't stand up on her back feet but I'm really happy with how she seems to be progressing right now.

Oh and just a tip for those of you who may ever need to syringe feed your rabbits. I got a $10 coffee grinder from Walmart and used it to chop the pellets up into fine dust, it works wonders and gets it fine enough that it wont clog the syringe!

Keep your fingers crossed that this big girl pulls through this!


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## Maureen Las (Feb 8, 2009)

:thumbup:thumbupGood job !

hope that she continues to do well!!!


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## MyBabyBunnies (Feb 8, 2009)

*LuvaBun wrote: *


> How is Chase coping with her?


Sorry, I meant to answer this before. Chase has been a real rock for Naomi over the last week. They have been attached at the hip since she got sick and when Naomi was still really dizzy and having a hard time balancing, she was leaning on Chase to keep her balance and he didn't move when she did it. Her balance is a lot better now but she stills follows Chase everywhere. Yesterday Naomi actually pushed him so hard he slid across the mats, it was funny. I really think Chase helped her through the first few really rough days.


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## Pet_Bunny (Feb 8, 2009)

*MyBabyBunnies wrote: *


> Chase has been a real rock for Naomi


It's so nice to have a bunny being there for each other. 

Come on Naomi, let the medicine work and get better. et:


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## MyBabyBunnies (Feb 8, 2009)

Here is Naomi today. The stuff in the background is cardboard that I attached to keep her from getting and legs stuck if she does happen to roll.


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## krsbunny (Feb 8, 2009)

Naomi looks great! More "quizzical" than tilted ... If I didn't know you were fighting head tilt I probably would not have noticed. Looks like you are on the right track.

My experiences with both sulfa drugsand Baytril in rabbits have been different from Randy's. Both are still quite effective against *many* of the "bugs" we see in rabbits here in my part of the country. Certainly, there are infections that neither will touch ... but that is going to be true with any antibiotic. 

I have also *not* had bunnies experience GI issues withsulfa drugs used for other infections.Albon is asulfa drug and is the preferred treatment of the vetshere for coccidia (confirmed or strongly suspected). Bactrim has also been used -- with excellent results-- when mild GI flora imbalances have been suspected.

Though I have had good results with chloramphenicol, the last bunny we treated with it began having elevated liver enzymes after three weeks of treatment. Apparently, Dr. Allan had seen this in other bunnies as well as she was somewhat reluctant to prescribe it (and we had used it on other bunnies in the past) plus she was more insistent than normal about doing blood work ... and at a much earlier point in treatment than is normal for her.

My background is in math, so it has taken a while for me to accept the reality that medicine is not an "exact science." I, too,wouldlike for there to be "one size fits all" answers, but they don't exist. Every rabbit+bacteria+medicine combination is going to be unique.We (humans in general) are only beginning to grasp the role that individual body chemistry plays in both the safety and efficacy of drug treatment. 

The most important thing each of us can do if we have an ill rabbit is to stay "in tune" with what they are telling us about what is working and, equally important, what is not ... what they are willing to go through to stay with us and when "the cure is worse than the disease." 

Kathy Smith


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## MyBabyBunnies (Feb 8, 2009)

I'm in engineering so my background is math and sciences so while I understand there's no one answer and a lot of times it's trial and error, I can't help but wish it really was as simple as just picking one medicine and magically curing them.

When she is really relaxing her head tilts a lot more but overall it is not that bad and I hope it doesn't get any worse. So far the antibiotics seem to be working and the vet insists they have had good results using this antibiotic in rabbits.

I meant to say, the vet also found some cloudingin the cornea of her 'down eye'. I guess that's better than what could have been because that is the eye more prone to injury but at the same time I'm assuming she probably is having issues seeing what's on the ground.

I love my animals, but the one thing I could never stand is to watch them suffer. She has improved a lot and she seems happy. She is curious and she's been running around. While her appetite is not 100% yet, I think her quality of life is still quite good. I could never keep an animal alive just for my sake so I'm constantly on the look out for signs that I'm not doing what's best for her or my other animals.


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## tonyshuman (Feb 8, 2009)

So glad she's feeling better.


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 9, 2009)

She looks good. I'm keeping her in my prayers! What a great bunny Chase is being!


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## tonyshuman (Feb 9, 2009)

Since I'm in the health sciences, maybe I can help a little with the concerns about it not being an exact science. The main issue arises in inter-individual differences. Every individual is different in tiny ways from each other, and not all of these are known. A really good example is humans and antidepressants. Some antidepressants will work really well for one person, but not another, and there's no way to tell without trying the drug. Some depressed people can't get relief from any of the antidepressants currently on the market, which is one of the reasons they keep on coming out with new ones. Not all of the molecular reasons for this inter-individual variance are well known.

In a study of a drug, they use animals that are nearly genetically identical, all on the same food, and all the same age. In that group, they will still see a range of side effects and desired effects. When you add genetic differences, food differences, age, gender, other environmental factors, etc, the list of possible variations just becomes too big. The best way, in my opinion, to do this kind of thing is to 1) do a culture and sensitivity test if at all possible, and 2) if that's not possible start with the antibiotic that the vet thinks is most appropriate. If you see bad side effects without a significant improvement in the infection, switch. We should be open to trying anything that works and be flexible to changing the treatment in case something isn't working.

Anyway, that's just my perspective from the classes I've taken about how discovering and developing new drugs works. You cannot imagine how many differences there can be between individuals both from a genetic standpoint and a lifestyle standpoint. With rabbits, it's really different too. We have bunnies that weigh 25 lbs and bunnies that weigh 2; short ears, long ears, floppy ears; all different hair types, colors, and lengths--and that's just how they look on the outside. Not everybun is an 8lb New Zealand red-eye white--which is the most common bunny for drug tests--and this great diversity makes bunnies so wonderful.

Sorry for the long-winded rant. Naomi looks good and I'm glad she has a fluffy buddy and devoted mom to help her through this. Who is the cute fluffer, by the way?:biggrin2:


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## krsbunny (Feb 9, 2009)

Very well said ... and very much what I've seen in 25+ years as a "math person" working in the pharmaceutical industry! We like to think that age, sex, race, and cultural difference are not important ... but they are. So, with bunnies, will be age, sex, breed, color, geographic location, diet ... and who knows what else. 

What has worked in the past (for us or others) is a very good starting point. And we have to be patient enough to give medications*time* to work. At the same time we need to recognize when the "tried and true" treatment isn't working i-- or is even making things worse -- n a particular case and in those cases advocate for trying something different.

Kathy Smith


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## naturestee (Feb 9, 2009)

Eep, just seeing this now! I'm really glad Naomi is doing well, and she and Chase are a beautiful couple.

On her down eye- was it internal clouding, scratches on the surface, potential causes? Is she able to blink, and can she (or Chase) keep the eye clean? I know they can have more trouble with their down eyes, and I'm wondering if it might help to flush her eye with sterile saline daily. Or some sort or eye lubricant/tear replacement? I'd check with the vet first before messing with the eye though.

Do your ground pellets clog syringes less than Critical Care? I've hadthe hardest time with that. I do have a coffee grinder, but I've just been using Critical Care because it's more convenient and has some added nutrition and probiotics.


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## krsbunny (Feb 9, 2009)

Rainbow Exact softens really nicely ... probably because it is extruded rather than pelleted. I think regular pellets clog worse than critical care... even when using a wide-tipped syringe.

Kathy


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## MyBabyBunnies (Feb 9, 2009)

The little fluff ball is Chase.

Naturestee, I actually ground up the Critical Care more with the coffee grinder, so yes it gets it finer. You just have to keep stirring the contents while feed or it does settle in lumps and will clog but if you mix it before sucking it up, it works great! I mix it part pellets and part Critical Care when she's not eating so that she gets some of her regular diet plus the added nutrition of the CC.

The clouding was internal, she had that before she had any head tilt and the outside is not damaged at all. Her head is not tilted that much, so I'm hoping I wont have too many problems with that eye. And yes, Chase does clean it and I check it daily as well. I have saline eye drops just in case she needs it but so far there has been no need for it.


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## naturestee (Feb 9, 2009)

EC can cause cataracts. It might be a contributing factor with the head tilt, something to look into if antibiotics don't seem to be doing much.


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## krsbunny (Feb 9, 2009)

I agree that you might want to consider treating for e.c. as well. What Dr. Allan does is take a blood sample, then start treatment pending titer results. I have actually had a few of my bunnies come back negative ... more than once, an with those we discontinue the e.c. treatment. One of these bunnies, ironically, later developed very severe symptoms that we failed to consider might be e.c. because he had been negative in repeated tests. What we failed to factor in was that his mate had been positive and symptomatic at one point, and we assume that is how Fred became infected.

I'm very interested in hearing what everyone here has (and has not) had success with. I have talked to a handful of other people over the years who have tried ponazuril, which I understand Randy is looking at now. Would be very interested in hearing his experiences. 

Also ... has anyone tried the Ivermectin treatment recommended on Barbi Brown's site? I'm interested in whether you used the full dose she recommends and whether you saw any side effects. I understand from her site that the high dose is really important, yet the vets here are reluctant to risk going that high. I would love to be able to put them in touch with vet(s) who have tried this to discuss their perception of both safety and efficacy.

The vets here have seen many, many, many "full blown" symptomatic e.c. cases ... most with multiple symptoms... and are more than willing to consult with other vets. They would love to find an answer to this frustrating illness.

Kathy Smith


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## MyBabyBunnies (Feb 9, 2009)

The problem is a positive EC test means they were exposed to it at one time, it doesn't mean it is the problem. A lot of rabbits will come up positive and not show any signs in their life.

I'm sticking with where we are going, she seems to be doing well and she is improving each day.


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## tonyshuman (Feb 9, 2009)

It's true that a titer can mostly only tell you whether or not the bunny has been exposed, but it's possible that a very high titer might indicate an active infection. I'm not 100% on this, I think Randy has found that a high titer correlates with a more active infection (please correct me if I'm wrong, don't want to put words into anyone's mouth). It makes biological sense too.


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## Maureen Las (Feb 10, 2009)

I think that if you run a titer and it is high and the rabbits is symptomatic then you assume EC..
if one is not sure you would need a baseline Ec titer to compare with future ones which most likely would be get higher as Ec progresses.


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## krsbunny (Feb 10, 2009)

Dr. Allan and I assume that if a rabbit is having e.c.-like symptoms and the titer does not come back negative, that e.c. may be at least part of what is going on, so we treat for that as well as infection, inflammation, or whatever else we can confirm or strongly suspect. I view it as "covering all bases," and it sounds like what some others here do as well. If that doesn't "feel right" to you, then, of course, don't do it <gr> 

There are no right/wrong answers to this ...but I think that it is good to hear a variety of experiences and viewpoints, providing more information from which to make an informed decision that feels right to you for your rabbit.

Kathy Smith


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## Maureen Las (Feb 11, 2009)

*krsbunny wrote: *


> I agree that you might want to consider treating for e.c. as well. What Dr. Allan does is take a blood sample, then start treatment pending titer results. I have actually had a few of my bunnies come back negative ... more than once, an with those we discontinue the e.c. treatment. One of these bunnies, ironically, later developed very severe symptoms that we failed to consider might be e.c. because he had been negative in repeated tests. What we failed to factor in was that his mate had been positive and symptomatic at one point, and we assume that is how Fred became infected.
> 
> I'm very interested in hearing what everyone here has (and has not) had success with. I have talked to a handful of other people over the years who have tried ponazuril, which I understand Randy is looking at now. Would be very interested in hearing his experiences.
> 
> ...



I accidentally ran across the Barbi Brown treatment a long time ago by accident and actually saved it to "my favorites". I have never heard of anyone using it as prescribed by a vet but it's possible that it has been used by breeders and it may even be worth it to ask that question in the rabbitry section.

Breeders use many various treatments for their rabbits thatwould not be used in a vet office but would probably be worth taking a look at.
I have heard of all kind of ointments etc (for sorehocks etc) and wounds that breeders swear by yet are not anything a vet would prescribe.

I think that if one actually separated the "wheat from the chaff" with some of these treatments that breeders can offer all of us options that we might pass over because they have not been scientifically documented.

they work but people may not actually be sure why

As far as I have learned there is no really effective treatment for EC ..just the sometimes temporary positive effect of fenbendazole 

Randy and his vetsare working on different treatments (Ponazuril)but as yet I don't think have found a sure one.


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## MyBabyBunnies (Feb 11, 2009)

I talked to one of the vets at the clinic today and convinced them to start her on EC treatment as well. After looking into Panacur and more into EC I decided the risks of not treating her were too great. They gave me the medication and I started her on Panacur today. They actually wanted to give me another medication, Albendazole, but I asked about Fenbendazole (Panacur) and they were willing to let me try it.


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## Pet_Bunny (Feb 11, 2009)

How is Naomi today?

Did the vet have the medication on hand? Do you have enough Critical Care?


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 11, 2009)

Oh man, how is she doing? I've been really waiting to hear more news!


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## naturestee (Feb 11, 2009)

How is Naomi doing?

Kathy,I think a few people here may have used Barbi Brown'sEC treatment. Maybe Tinysmom, I know she's dealt with head tilt and has to go a really long way to get to a halfway decent vet.


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## MyBabyBunnies (Feb 11, 2009)

She seemed to plateau as far as recovery. She improved a little each day up until about Sunday, since then it's been more of the same, maybe not quite as good and that was a little concerning. Right now I'm all for agressively treating what she may have. I'm really hoping one of these treatments will work. She is still kicking and she is still curious, I haven't seen her lose her balance since Saturday. She is still eating, just not nearly as much as normal. Her and Chase seem to be attached at the hip.

Let me just say I am glad Naomi is such a good bunny, she is so great about her meds. I do have to play with the syringe to get her to keep chewing so she actually swallows it and it doesn't just drop out of her mouth.


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## tonyshuman (Feb 12, 2009)

I'm glad you're treating for EC as a precaution. I'm glad she's being a good bunny for you and Chase is being her rock. I hope she starts to improve again.


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## JadeIcing (Feb 15, 2009)

Hows she doing? Ringo sends lots of kisses.


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## MyBabyBunnies (Feb 15, 2009)

Not any change. I guess it's good she seems to have levelled out though instead of getting worse but I wish I could see some improvement. She goes back to the vet Thursday, I'll be armed with her medical journal marking every day in the last nearly 2 weeks and pictures of her head tilt from a few different days so the vet can compare. This is the same vet that saw her initially so I can get a better idea wheather the antibiotics are working or not.

She's a little fighter.


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## Pet_Bunny (Feb 15, 2009)

You're such a good bunny mommy. Who was the doctor that saw Naomi last time? (Dr. Black).

When Pebbles had problems, she improved very quickly at the start of her medication, reached aplateau and then took a long time to completely recover.


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## MyBabyBunnies (Feb 15, 2009)

Dr. Wilkenson saw her when I took her back for the recheck. I tried to get Naomi in on Friday but Dr. Steele wasn't in and I would have ended up taking her to Dr. Simmonds. I didn't want to take her to a 3rd vet in 2 weeks, I figured we could hold out an extra week and get to see Dr. Steele again. I really want her opinion on if the swelling in the ears has gone down which would be hard for a vet that has never seen her before.

I'm not a very patient person when it comes to my animals health, so I'm finding this waiting game quite stressful.


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## LuvaBun (Feb 17, 2009)

Laura, I haven't been on the forum much recently, so I was sorry to hear that Naomi has kind of reached a plateau.. Is it this Friday you are going to see Dr Steele? She was great with Pernod - gives you more confidence when you know they have rabbits of their own.

Thinking of you guys.

Jan


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## MyBabyBunnies (Feb 18, 2009)

An update... I believe its pasteurella. Chase is showing signs too. I believe he was the one who was sick originally but he is just sneezing and it was easy to miss if I wasn't out there that much. I noticed a little discharge from his nose when I was cutting his nails. And now thinking back to Reesie, who developed an abscess 2 weeks after being bonded to Chase, it seems that could have been pasteurella as well.

Naomi's recovery sped up a bit more today. She was playing today and gobbled down her fruit/critical care mush. But now I have to consider the health of Mocha and Zoey...


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## tonyshuman (Feb 18, 2009)

Although it is contagious, at least pasturella isn't EC! It does sound like you should be using a more serious antibiotic, since it's been about two weeks without a lot of improvement on the Bactrim. Could the vet do a culture and sensitivity test on bacteria from the nasal discharge? Or maybe try Bicillin (which is only an injectible, but the course commonly prescribed is every other day)?


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## MyBabyBunnies (Feb 18, 2009)

I'm taking 10 pages of information on bicillin tomorrow to try to convince her to let me try it. Every other day is nicer than twice a day. I doubt the vet will take Naomi off Bactrim, since there has been SOME improvement.

I'm not sure a sensitivity test is worth it. To have two differing symptoms of pasteurella crop up at the same time is too coincidental. If the vet wants to do a test, she can but I think we have our answer.

My biggest concern with Chase is that he hates his mouth being touched and I'm afraid he wont tolerate oral antibiotics, I am really hoping she lets me put him on injectible antibiotics for that reason. Plus if she puts them both on injectible antibiotic then she can show me on one and I can try it on the other under her supervision.


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## krsbunny (Feb 18, 2009)

You may "know" in your heart that you are dealing with pasteurella... but IMOthe benefit of the culture/sensitivity is about identifying what antibiotics will (and equally importantly won't) be effective in treating it. 

I understand your feeling that for some bunnies an every-other-day injection would be much preferable than twice-a-day oral antibiotics. I don't know how open your vet is to considering that when selecting a treatment (thankfully, mine is), but I would certainly try to discuss that aspect with her. I firmly believe that the stress of giving a medication needs to be weighed alongside the benefits of the treatment itself. My bunny Dante was a great teacher to me in that respect!

This may also be a situation where Randy's suggestion of Convenia is the best answer. I did speak to my vet about it and was pleased to hear that the only concern she had about it if it seemed to be necessary for one of my guys ... was the cost <gr>. Even there, though, once you figure the cost of Baytril (it was $3/day last time I used it on one of my buns) ... even that might balance out.

Good luck!

Kathy Smith


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## MyBabyBunnies (Feb 18, 2009)

Doing a quick search on Convenia I can say I highly doubt it as an option. Many sites say it is not to be used in small herbivores and is not licensed for use on then and that there are very few studies on it.

I had enough resistance (from a different vet at the same clinic) when I suggested injectible Bicillin the first time.


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## MyBabyBunnies (Feb 19, 2009)

So tomorrow at 5:00 Naomi and Chase go in, lets pray for some answers and resolution.


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## Pet_Bunny (Feb 19, 2009)

Good Luck! ray:







The painting at the Vet's office.


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## Maureen Las (Feb 19, 2009)

OMG how beautiful!
M


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## LuvaBun (Feb 19, 2009)

Keeping you in my thoughts today. Good luck!!

Jan


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## tonyshuman (Feb 19, 2009)

Kathy is (of course) right that the culture and sensitivity test will tell you which antibiotic to use on the presumed pasturella infection.

I can also understand that it could be easier for some bunnies and people to do every other day injections rather than twice daily oral meds. Good luck and I hope you get to use a stronger antibiotic.


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 19, 2009)

Wow, I sure am glad to hear she's feeling a bit better but I sure hate hearing the latest on this situation with her.


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## MyBabyBunnies (Feb 19, 2009)

Okay, back from the vets. Chase will be started on bicillin injections as soon as they can get some ordered or brought in to another clinic nearer to me (they don't use it normally, so don't have it in stock).

Naomi's ear infection appears to have cleared up. The vet was really pleased but we are keeping her on antibiotics for another 3-4 weeks at least. Since Naomi's healing has stalled, she is also double checking the interections between novo-trimel and bicillin to ensure they wont interfere with one another. As long as they don't, Naomi will start on bicillin as well just to see if a more agressive treatment might cause at least a little more improvement.

She was concerned at how tilted Nao's head was but that was a stress thing, it went from about a 45 degree angle to a 90 degree angle when we were at the vets. Luckily I was armed with picture evidence of her head tilt from a few different days so she could compare them. (Her head is back to 'normal' now.)

I'm really positive at how this visit went. And I am continually surprised at how cheap they are! I'm loving this vet/vet clinic!

By the way, Chase was not showing any signs of nasal discharge today so there was nothing to do a culture and sensitivity test on. If it happens that it doesn't improve or he has discharge when I will be at the vet, then I will have it done but nothing I can do if it's not showing itself.


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## MyBabyBunnies (Feb 19, 2009)

Oh and another thing, she does agree it is most likely pasteurella given the history and the symptoms so right now we are treating it as such.


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 19, 2009)

ray:


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## MyBabyBunnies (Feb 20, 2009)

Thanks.

I was just outside cleaning pens and Naomi's personality is returning to normal. She was back to her being nosey and getting in the way, she was binkying and playing with toys. If it wasn't for the head tilt, I wouldn't even know she was sick really.


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## Pet_Bunny (Feb 20, 2009)

Thank goodness everything is working out for Naomi. Hope there is no more discharge from Chase. This clinichas one ofthe most inexpensive rates and the most caring people around.


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## tonyshuman (Feb 20, 2009)

I've been there with the "but there was discharge yesterday!" thing. It's like taking your car to the mechanic cuz it's making some weird noise but they can't get it to make the noise. Hopefully that means it's just clearing up on its own (as it did for Tony).

Glad you're going to be giving bicillin. It should be better for her and easier for you. Stress could definitely have contributed to the tilt at the office--she probably knows by now that going in the carrier and the car means pokes and prods and such. It's great that she's acting normal otherwise. I hope she starts improving again!!


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## LuvaBun (Feb 20, 2009)

Sounds like a really positive vet visit . Pleased to hear that Naomi is feeling more like herself.

Keeping everything crossed for continued improvement

Jan


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## MyBabyBunnies (Feb 22, 2009)

Well it seems Naomi is slowly getting back to her normal self. Everytime I give her medication and put her back in her pen, she thumps at me and runs around her pen, lol.

I've been giving her this unsweetened fruit blend mixed with critical care and a little Nutrical and while it looks disgusting, Naomi LOVES it. She chows down on it when I put it in her cage. I even managed to hide her Panacur dose in it last night without her noticing.

I was in contact with the vet clinic on Friday, they have arranged for me to take Naomi and Chase to the local vet clinic to have an injection demonstration. It has to wait until Wednesday because they don't normally use bicillin (Dura-pen as its called here) so they have to order it in.

I have to call tomorrow to the vet that has been doing Naomi's checks because I forgot to double check if Naomi could have bicillin too.

But, overall things are looking brighter.


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## Luvr of Wabbits and Polar Bears (Feb 22, 2009)

I have been following your thread but haven't replied. I'm happy to read that your bunny's are getting better. I hope that they continue to recover and live a nice happy long life with you


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## LuvaBun (Feb 22, 2009)

Good to hear that Naomi seems to be getting back to her old self. Have you noticed if the degree of tilt is improving?

Jan


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## MyBabyBunnies (Feb 22, 2009)

No, her head tilt isn't improving but as far as I can tell, its no worse either.


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## MyBabyBunnies (Feb 23, 2009)

After 3 weeks of nursing Naomi, I have a new respect for those with special needs rabbits. Naomi's care has taken a lot of my spare time, a lot of early mornings, a lot of cleaning/disinfecting, and a lot of love.

But at the same time, the bond the 2 of us have formed over these weeks is amazing. I loved her before, but now she really is my baby.


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## MyBabyBunnies (Feb 25, 2009)

So I gave my first bicillin injection today. I took both bunnies to the local vet for an injection demonstration, she showed me how to do it on Chase and then she coached me through doing it on Naomi. It was good to do it under supervision once, otherwise I wouldn't be all that confident doing it on my own.


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## JadeIcing (Feb 25, 2009)

*MyBabyBunnies wrote: *


> After 3 weeks of nursing Naomi, I have a new respect for those with special needs rabbits. Naomi's care has taken a lot of my spare time, a lot of early mornings, a lot of cleaning/disinfecting, and a lot of love.
> 
> But at the same time, the bond the 2 of us have formed over these weeks is amazing. I loved her before, but now she really is my baby.



It's very true you form a very strong bond.


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## SOOOSKA (Feb 26, 2009)

How are all the Bunnies today?

Boy are they lucky to have such a great "Bunny Mommie".

Susan


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## MyBabyBunnies (Feb 26, 2009)

They are doing alright, Chase actually hasn't shown symptoms since last week.

The only thing I am a little concerned about is the instructions for frequency of dosage.

I did some figuring and Naomi is on 0.5mL (150,000 units) and Chase is on 0.26mL (78,000 units). Which is fine, that's what I have found in my research to be acceptable. The problem is they told me to give it only once a week and I know for more agressive treatment it can be given once every 2 or 3 days.

So does anyone else see the once a week administration to be somewhat lacking?


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## Pet_Bunny (Feb 26, 2009)

Maybe the vet is cautioning on the minimum acceptablefrequency. How long will the treatment last?


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## Maureen Las (Feb 26, 2009)

It should be every other day 

here I'll give you a link that you can print out


http://www.medirabbit.com/Safe_medication/Antibiotics/Safe_antibiotics.htm


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## MyBabyBunnies (Feb 26, 2009)

5 weeks but she told me this is an antibiotic that can be used for rabbits who are cronically ill and need long term antibiotics. I'm hoping that once this is through, Naomi will have improved and the pasteurella goes into a dormant stage so she can be medication free, at least for a while.


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## tonyshuman (Feb 26, 2009)

The previous treatment was weekly but it has been shown to be better every other day. The weekly protocol isn't strong enough.


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## MyBabyBunnies (Mar 7, 2009)

So Naomi and I have been battling headtilt for over a month now. While she isn't back to completely normal, she is happy and seemingly healthy right now. She is more than willing to let me know how much she disapproves of our medication sessions, lol.







This is a little picture calendar of her progress. While her headtilt is fairly constant, looking into it shows that her headtilt now is actually slightly improved. It's also more constant when I pick her up (before it used to get worse).

So despite her obvious handicap, she is doing well and requires very little special care.

Chase is also doing fine by the way. Since starting him on bicillin, his breathing has been fine and there has been no sneezing/discharge.


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## LuvaBun (Mar 7, 2009)

Sounds like she is doing just fine, Laura. At least her attitude is there . I'm sure Stan's Pebbles kind of stayed the same for a while, before continuing to improve.

Glad Chase is doing OK. Such a cute couple!

Jan


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## Maureen Las (Mar 7, 2009)

her tilt does look better!!
and I'm really glad that the bicillin is doing the job


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## MyBabyBunnies (Mar 9, 2009)

Naomi seems way more sensitive to noise since she got sick. She never used to care about loud noises but now she runs and hides. But at least I know she can still hear!

On a great note... here are some promising photos... (knock on wood: her head seems to slowly be improving)


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## tonyshuman (Mar 9, 2009)

That probably means the ear infection is clearing up well! She does look better and I hope she continues to right herself! But if not, she can just be a bit quizzical, it's cute!


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## MyBabyBunnies (Mar 15, 2009)

Every day Naomi is showing a little improvement.

For weeks she has not been as interested in food as normal. But yesterday she chased Chase in circles and took the treat right out of his mouth, lol.

For the first time in 6 weeks, Naomi and Chase's food bowl has been empty/nearly empty for the last 2 days.

When I cleaned her cage today, she was nibbling on my shoes, climbing over my legs, and just plain old getting in the way, lol.

So gradually she is improving, both physically and mentally. Her care has been somewhat exhausting with the early mornings and need to keep her cage and herself extra clean but it has been worth it. I'm just glad that her handicap doesn't affect her quality of life very much at this point.


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## naturestee (Mar 15, 2009)

That's great news! :highfive:


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## MyBabyBunnies (Mar 15, 2009)

Yes it is, and probably the best thing to come from all of this is that me and her have bonded a lot since the start of this. And not only her, but Chase as well. His personality has improved a ton, he now comes and investigates, he doesn't run from me at all and he ever sits at the gate and begs which is unusual for him!


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## LuvaBun (Mar 15, 2009)

that's wonderful, Laura . I guess that every cloud has it's silver lining 

Jan


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## JadeIcing (Mar 15, 2009)

This needs to go in the library.


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## Bo B Bunny (Mar 15, 2009)

I'm so glad she's doing so well. She's just the prettiest little girl! 

Give her a smooch from me, Bo and Tony. (Cloverbunny smooches NO ONE! ssd


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## MyBabyBunnies (Mar 15, 2009)

Here's an updated one, it can go in the library if you want.






It might be good for people to see how long any noticable physical changes take.


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## Maureen Las (Mar 16, 2009)

It was great to keep progress pictures like that..very useful


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## MyBabyBunnies (Mar 26, 2009)

Well when Naomi's head started to straighten, I came to the realisation that I was about to run out of her oral antibiotics. So I called the vet told them the situation and they allowed me to come in and pick up another 2 week supply. My whole intent was just to see if her head would keep improving. I was afraid that stopping one of the antibiotics might have some effect on her recovery. So for a week after I got the refill I continued her on both antibiotics but her head stopped improving so on Tuesday ( 7 weeks to the day after Naomi first got sick) I took her off the oral antibiotic.

She has been doing well, she seems happy and fairly healthy. She is spunky and playful and her head, while not normal by any means, is at a very managable tilt.

In another week and a half she will stop the second one as well, but after 2 months on antibiotics, I am confident that she should do well.


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## Maureen Las (Mar 27, 2009)

I'm glad that Naomi is doing so well 

Thanks for the update


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## Bo B Bunny (Mar 27, 2009)

She looks really good! I'm glad she's doing so well.


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## MyBabyBunnies (Apr 12, 2009)

I thought this thread deserved at least one more update. Naomi's head has continued to improve after being taken off one antibiotic and reducing the frequency of dosage on the other. Her head still tilts a little when I pick her up or she is stressed but ready for this everyone?











She is almost back to normal and loving life again.


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## anneq (Apr 12, 2009)

Oh, she such a beautiful bun - I'm so happy that Naomi has made such a great recovery - having had a head-tilt bunny, I know how scary the situation can be.
Kudos to you for being such a good mom!


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## Luvr of Wabbits and Polar Bears (Apr 12, 2009)

She looks very good. My Fluffy also tilt's his head when I pick him up.


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## Maureen Las (Apr 12, 2009)

Naomi looks great; I am so happy for both of you


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## MyBabyBunnies (Apr 13, 2009)

I never really expected her head to improve so much. When she's active you still see the tilt but when she rests she holds it normal. I guess that's the best I could ask for!


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## Pet_Bunny (Apr 13, 2009)

:bunnydance:

Head Tilt is very treatable as Naomi's case proves. If caught early and having a rabbit savvy Vet available, a bunny has a good chance for full recovery. You canalso see Pebbles is fine from hertwo cases of Head Tilts.


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## LuvaBun (Apr 13, 2009)

That's awesome, Laura. Naomi looks great, and she is obviously feeling good. Well done to you (and Chase, of course )

Jan


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## anneq (Apr 13, 2009)

n/t


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