# Urgent! Need answers!



## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 11, 2007)

So Me and my sister were -planning- on not breeding Lily because we found out she's 2 1/2 around there. But, to our dismay it seems she's pregnant. This was obviously an accidental pregnancy, and luckily by a purebred MR buck, but we're still concerned. We're not -exactly- sure if she's pregnant but she's showing all the first signs: being nasty, getting larger, eating and drinking more, and she squeaks when you're not even at her cage. 

So we've palpated her -countless- times, -countless- ways and by far we've felt two "kicks" or that's what we thought they were. So, we're guessing she's pregnant due next week. She's gotten bigger in the past 2 days! And this is the week that babies grow fast.

So we're debating: If i can sell my dirtbike thursday and get her to the vet and have her ultrasound will she be ok? Or is that too much stress? 

Our vet is kinda rabbit savvy, we're his only bunny patients but he seems to know alot because we have taken our bunnies there before. I'm just concerned that he's never handled a pregnant rabbit before and that if she is preggo, he may squish the kits or hold her wrong and she'll hurt herself. I'm also afraid that he'll try some wacko way to do the ultrasound which will make me so flippin angry. 

So i need help. The only other vet that's in our area "doesn't do bunnies because someone is allergic" why be a veteriarian then? Too bad! ugh! 

Emily


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## BlueGiants (Dec 11, 2007)

Emily, I would set her up with a nest box and just wait and see. An ultrasound may stress her out alot and if she is pregnant, what will you do? You'll still set her up with a nest box and wait. Keep her calm, take good care of her and let things progress. 

Give her a week and see if she kindles. If not, then I might look for reasons why she's gaining weight and getting cranky. 

edited to add: Then I would make sure she stays away from the buck and spend the money to get her fixed. She's getting older now and shouldn't be having anymore babies.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 11, 2007)

Yeah I'm giving her a nest box this weekend to see what she does. 

If she is pregnant I'm staying home from school and getting up early to make sure she's ok. But we will sell the kits and just hope that everything is ok. 

Yes she will be staying away from the boys. I'm worried about fixing my does because of the doctors but there is someone who fixes kitties for $60 and can also do bunnies. One place scared the frick out of me by saying there's a 50-50 chance , I was like no thank you then!


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## BlueGiants (Dec 11, 2007)

If the vet only gives a 50-50 chance on a spay, he can't be a very good vet! Best stay away from him. 

If you are not sure when she is due, and she's getting that big, I might not wait until this weekend to give her a box.


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## RAL Rabbitry (Dec 12, 2007)

I would stop increasing the doe's feed until after she kindles. If she has only

a couple of babies then she could end up with fetal giants if you feed her too

much. My pregnant MR does only get a 1/2 a cup of pellets a day during their

pregnancy andfor couple of days afterward and then I slowly start increasing

their feed until by the time the kits open their eyes they are on unlimited feed.

give her plenty of hay though.

Good Luck

Roger


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 12, 2007)

BlueGiants: Yeah that was a vet up in Lacey, WA. We go to one closer, just right down the road. 

RAL: Ok, I'll stop feeding her a lot then. I'll cut her meals back to 1/2 a cup.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 12, 2007)

*Ok so Lily's mammary glands are soft and squishy and kind of lumpy. I read somewhere that this means there getting ready for milk right?* 

Now I'm starting to get SO worried that she won't feed them (if she is pregnant) and I have puppy milk but from previous litter experiences the babies don't seem to like it. It's not Esbilac puppy milk, because when we went to get Esbilac we couldn't find any. I'm going to Walmart today and I saw Esbilac there once, so I am going to get a small container of it, just in case. 

I just hope she isn't pregnant! If she is, i'm glad for her and all but I just want a safe delivery. I'm starting to get stressed out and I keep having horrible dreams about this. It's not good for her because then she'll sense my stress and just freak. 

I was reading today about hand-feeding babies and I found some methods to bring the milk down into the doe's glands if she wont feed and then you flip her on her back and latch the kits on to her teats. 

So right now I'm searching for more information on older does w/litters. Please, everyone just pray for Lily. Me and my sister will be there with her the whole time and we'll have $500 (from selling our dirtbikes hopefully this Friday) to spend on her if she MUST go to the hospital. 

Anyways, just thought I'd update, ask some questions. The question in bold at the very top I'd like some answers because I never felt the mammary glands on my other does when they were pregnant/nursing, stupid me! 

Emily


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## BlueGiants (Dec 12, 2007)

Her mammary gland should normally be soft... I'm not sure what you mean by lumps. Once the milk comes in the glands get firmer, but not hard (unless there is a problem).

Emily, Stay calm, don't panic. She should do fine. If you go for a milk replacement, I use a Kitten formula. But don't be in a rush to use it. Give the doe a day for her milk to come in....

Most does kindle just fine, all by themselves. Have patience and just make sure everything is set up for her. A nice clean nest box, plenty of dry, clean straw and hay, a warm dry place to kindle and some peace and quiet.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 12, 2007)

Well her mammary glands are soft and squishy. No lumps. I read that somewhere. 

I'm trying to stay super calm. omg. I'm just so nervous i don't want to lose her at all. She's my doll and my nephew's fav bunny. He'll be crushed if she doesn't make it. He doesn't even know and he's going to be here in 2 weeks. 

do you think her pelvic bones are too far shut to deliver without any problems? I read that 4 year olds who've never delivered have that problem because their pelvic bones are closed up and all.


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## BlueGiants (Dec 12, 2007)

Emily, She's only 2... not 4... stay calm. (Has she ever had a litter before? I think you told me, but I couldn't find it...)

Readingup on a subject is a wonderful thing so you know what to expect and are informed INCASE something goes wrong... that doesn't mean that something will always go wrong. 

You are prepared, just in case. Keep her comfortable and relaxed. That means you have to stay calm and relaxed around her. There is almost nothing you can do at this point except wait. (We all get nervous for our bunnies at times like this! But you have to be calm around her.) Your getting nervous and worried won't help her in any way and will only make you tired and nervous... and then you won't be much help to her. 

Just think how surprised your nephew will be to see babies... take deep breaths and stay calm.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 12, 2007)

Alright I'm trying to stay calm. Since I'm at school it's calming me down because I'm not constantly going out to see her. 

So her pelvic should be fine? Yes I'm doing as much research about this as I can. I'm at school so I can't really do alot. But I am comptuter class.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 12, 2007)

Ok I'm home now. 

Lily seems to be doing good. I tried not to stress her out; she was being good, but being that nasty self again, squealing and grunting. Her belly looks bigger than yesterday as the kits must be getting bigger and bigger. I'm thinking she must be due sometime next week because she doesn't do anything with all the hay. She just lies in it. Tomorrow or Friday we're moving her to a large brood cage and putting a nestbox in on Friday or Saturday. I don't want to put it in too early as she may urinate in it. I'm hoping she'll build the nest, and if not I'll build it for her. We have a tub of fur from when the rabbits shed in the summer. 

*Do you think that fur from other rabbits will be ok over the kits?* It's fur from bucks and does, but they all have no mites, no lice, no fleas and it wasn't taken near their bottoms. It's sat in a tub for pretty much the past few months and we add fur here and again. But it's also the winter months, so i'm definitaly going to make sure the nestbox is well insulated.


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## BlueGiants (Dec 12, 2007)

Before you build a nest for her, let her do it herself. Some does don't pull a strand of fur until the last baby is born... some start a full week before they are due. The important thing is that she doesn't kindle on the floor. If you need the other fur to protect the babies, you can use it. But I prefer to let the doe do it, and only suppliment if I have to.

I'd put the nest box in ASAP, since you don't know exactly when she is due. I wouldn't wait til I see signs of her in labor or pulling fur. She has to know the box is there and a safe, warm place to kindle. Do not put in the corner she uses to deficate. Most does will not pee in the box (as long as it isn't in their "favorite" corner). (And I'd take the chance that I have to clean out the box in the morning rather than the chance that I'd lose the babies.) Most does won't give you much advance notice that she going to deliver. It'll be over in 10 minutes, and if you're not ready, she'll leave them on the floor and they can die quickly.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 12, 2007)

Alright. Yeah I'm hoping she will not need any help or fur but i'll make sure there's enough fur/hay to keep the babies warm in this cold weather. 

Alright I'll put the box in tomorrow when she goes into the big cage and see what she does. 

Emily


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 12, 2007)

BlueGiants: Even though this was an accidental litter, if she does good with this litter(i.e: delivery, feeding, caring) *do you think it'd be ok to breed her again sometime next spring? Or would it be a good idea not to?* Because she'd be used to it and all. 

We're breeding our Polish and Netherland Dwarf does next spring.


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## TinysMom (Dec 12, 2007)

Blue Giants has been doing an awesome job of giving you advice....I agree with her about putting the nestbox in ASAP. I'd rather have to take it out and clean it again than lose the kits on the floor.

As far as rebreeding this doe - I'd wait to see what her offspring are like before considering that. I haven't gone to your website if you have one - so if I'm speaking out of turn - I apologize....but I would want to wait and see if she produces high enough quality kits to make it worth breeding her again. I have many many does - but I have found that only a few of them give me kits that make them worth breeding...then again, I'm trying for show quality lionheads or at least brood quality lionheads. 

Do keep us updated - if you can see/feel the kits them I'm betting she has enough of them in there that it will be an easier birth. I've always been told that the more kits - the smaller they will be and the easier the birth will be for the mom.

Good luck! I'm gonna step back out of here because Blue Giants has been doing such an awesome job of helping you....

Peg


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## BlueGiants (Dec 13, 2007)

*BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote: *


> BlueGiants: Even though this was an accidental litter, if she does good with this litter (i.e: delivery, feeding, caring) *do you think it'd be ok to breed her again sometime next spring? Or would it be a good idea not to?* Because she'd be used to it and all.
> 
> We're breeding our Polish and Netherland Dwarf does next spring.


Don't be in a hurry to make the decision to re-breed her. Wait and see what happens. She will be almost 3 by the spring and that's getting older for a breeding doe. More chances for complications and problems. You already said you and your nephew would be very upset if anything happened to her. Why take a chance. Might be a good time to have her spayed and keep her as a pet. If a bunny is that special, why take chances. (Look how upset and worried you are now... imagine how bad you'll feel if something happens with a planned breeding.)

Good idea to move her to the bigger cage and give her the nestbox tonight. Keep us informed with how she is doing.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 13, 2007)

Ok thanks TinysMom.

Alright last nite after I got home from shopping she seemed to be doing ok. She's going to the bigger cage today and I'll put the nestbox in and see what she does. A long with a lot of hay. I usually always place hay in the nestbox before the does start nesting to let them know that's where they're supposed to deliver. 

As for her rebreeding, I know the dad is of great brood quality and that's the only reason we got him for, besides showing. He's actually up for stud right now to any MR girls, but we probably won't get anything until Spring. 

Yes, Tinysmom I do actually have a website: http://www.freewebs.com/blueskyacresrabbitry/ 

And on the herds page you can see Lily. It says on there she's 3 years old but she's not. I haven't updated that in a while and the last time I did I forgot to fix that. 

This morning before school (when I went to check on her and feed everyone) she seemed to be doing ok. She wasn't as pi**y, so I def. will put the nestbox in her cage this afternoon. Her belly looked much different also; it had ripples in her fur, not her belly but in her fur. I guess she just has extra fur near her belly?

Emily


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 13, 2007)

I'm still in school so haven't checked on her. I hope she's doing ok.

My sister told me she might know when Lily could have gotten pregnant ( on Nov 19th)while the rabbitswere in the exercise pens.Apparently my sistersaw Bruce inwith Lilyand she removed him immediatley. But she never told me because she was afraid I'd get mad at her. I'mjust angry she didn't tell mewhen it happened.

So i calculated and it seems she could be due sometime next week. 

I'm wondering should I still put the nestbox in tonite? Or this weekend? I think putting it in on Sunday or is a good idea. But i need your opnions.

Edited to makethis shorter. It was super long. 

Emily


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## Flashy (Dec 13, 2007)

Sounds like if she is pregnant and they were together on the 19thshe is due anytime from 17th to the 21st, but most likely the 20th. That's a Friday which means if necessary you should be able to get a vet if necessary (always a useful thing to know).

It's a shame your sister wasn't responsible enough to tell you as soon as it happened.

Keep us updated  I hope everything is ok.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 13, 2007)

Yeah


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 13, 2007)

Ok I have another question:

I want to give Lily Tums about a day before she has the kits, but only after she starts building the nest. 

*So, what flavor/brand should I get? I know there's Tums for like heartburn, headaches (right?) or what? I mean what should the bottle look like? Does anyone have a picture of the Tums you give your bunnies?* 

I know my mom has Tums but im not sure what kind. I also heard spinach is good too. I can have my mom pick up some spinach salad and then I'll just pick out all the spinach. *Or is Spinach not good?*

*Emily*


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## gentle giants (Dec 13, 2007)

Tums is just for heartburn, they do not make one for headaches. Try the fruit flavored ones, and jsut give half of one tablet.


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## TinysMom (Dec 13, 2007)

I use the fruit flavored Tums (I actually use the Walmart brand) and I give 1 each day for the last three days of the pregnancy. I do keep spinach on hand too - but I figure the Tums should be ok.

I do this because of the potential for calcium deficiency which can cause issues. I had a dear breeder friend ALMOST lose a doe and litter to a seizure during labor...she wound up grinding up a calcium tablet she had for herself and giving a bit to the doe in something....and saved the litter and doe if I remember right. However - that is a RARE event and I am NOT suggesting that people give calcium tablets that your doctor might have prescribed for human consumption (due to the strength of the tablet, etc).

From what I've heard - Tums are sorta an old wive's tale...but so far - giving them has worked for me...so I do it.

Peg


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 13, 2007)

Alright thanks. I guess I'll giver her a Tums on Monday then. What happens if she doesn't like them? I'll ground them up in her food. What about grinding it up for her water? 

I put the nestbox in today when I switched her to a new cage. (I was going to get pics but forgot the camera! ggrrr. I'll get some after I go to Art Night) 

Anyway, at first she didn't know what it was for. Then she climbed in and laid down. I put a blanket at the bottom of it, and hay in a circle and a little pile in the circle. Plus i put in about 2 handfuls of hay for her. She thought the bed was for her, lol. But she should understand. We will take out her litterbox tomorrow or Saturday to make sure she doesn't have them in that. 

Also, we decided not to use the extra fur we have because it smells like other does and bucks and she may not like that. But we'll just find the fur in there that's hers and rub it on her to smell like her. 

Emily 

I'll post pictures (if I can tonite) but otherwise I'll post some tomorrow of her, the father and the rest of the bunnies. But i'll post these pics also on my blog.


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## BlueGiants (Dec 14, 2007)

Hi Emily, How is Lily this morning? Any nest building going on?


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 14, 2007)

Hi. 

Nope, no nest building this morning. She thinks the nestbox is for her, lol. She seemed very happy this morning because her cage is big and all, plus she had some special food as well. 

She's doing good otherwise and I'll take some pictures this afternoonwhen I get home. 

Emily


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## Flashy (Dec 14, 2007)

That's so cute (that she thinks it's for her).

Someone told me that raspberry leaves can help strengthen the uterus, so maybe you could give some of those too (but introduce in little bits obviously, like any other food).


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 14, 2007)

Flashy: Yeah i know. I was like "Lily, i know that's nice, soft, and comfy but it's not for you. It's for your children." And she looked at me like "What children?" lol. 

Okay, raspberry leaves? How does strengthing the uterus help? 

Lily also was checking out the top of the Nestbox. I told her she'd better get used toit up therebecause once her kitsare walking she will hide up there. That's what Autumn did with her three litters. She didn't like the fact that they suddenly were mobile and they had eyes to see her and they wanted MILK! lol. 

Emily


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## Flashy (Dec 14, 2007)

I have to be honest, I'm not entirely sure, but logic says it might make it firmer and easier to push the kits out, or it might make it stronger and prevent potential haemorrages.

I would waiton doing that though until someone really knowledgable comes along to correct me. I was definitely told the info by someone who knows a lot, but I would be worried that if you followed it and something went wrong that would be down to me, and I don't want that, so hopefully someone else will reply in a bit.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 14, 2007)

Ok good idea. I'd have to get and buy some anyway and why waste money on something that may not work?

And I wouldn't blame it on you Flashy! no way. It would be my fault because I gave it to her. 

Anyway, Im still at school. I want to get home though! ugh....I will take lots of pictures for everyone. I'll take some pics of her belly (so you can see if she looks preggo.) and some of her nestbox, and the daddy. 

Emily


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## BlueGiants (Dec 14, 2007)

I've used raspberry leaves to help with clotting and to control bleeding. We used it a lot with the dogs when I worked for a Kennel and Rescue.Pregnant bitches were given dried raspberry leaves in their food for 2 days before whelping to help contol blood loss and strengthen the uterine walls. 

Raspberry leaves are high in Calcium and are considered a blood "cleanser". (Red raspberry tea is even recommended for pregnant women...)

This is what I have in my Natural Remedy book:

*Red raspberry leaf strengthens the uterus wall and regulates menstrual flow. It nourishes the reproductive organs, especially the uterine muscles, and helps strengthen and prepare the body for childbirth. It is also highly valued for its soothing and astringent properties to the stomach and intestinal tract. Raspberry leaf is a nutrient-rich herb that helps balance the body to prevent diarrhea or constipation. *

I have used it on my rabbits with no problems. (And it may not be a bad thing for an older doe.)


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## summersvalley (Dec 14, 2007)

*RASPBERRY -* 
Prevention and treatment of female ailments like retained afterbirth. Improves condition during pregnancy, ensuring speedy and strong birth. Also wonderful cure for digestive ailments. 
found info here http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/6421/herbs.html

there are all other herbs to read up on too

shelly

xx


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## Flashy (Dec 14, 2007)

Thanks guys! I'm glad I wasn't totally mad


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 14, 2007)

Thanks! I guess I'll have my mom pick up some raspberries and I'll pluck off all the leaves! 

Or can you buy the leaves whole? Because some containers of raspberries don't have leaves on them. What about feeding just raspberries? 

Emily


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## Flashy (Dec 16, 2007)

Any news?


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## summersvalley (Dec 16, 2007)

*BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote: *


> Thanks! I guess I'll have my mom pick up some raspberries and I'll pluck off all the leaves!
> 
> Or can you buy the leaves whole? Because some containers of raspberries don't have leaves on them. What about feeding just raspberries?
> 
> Emily


i would stick to leaves you can buy dried leaves here 
http://www.galensgarden.co.uk/shop/products.php?cat=7

shelly

xx


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## BlueGiants (Dec 16, 2007)

You are right, a lot of Health Food Stores sell dried Raspberry leaves. Stick to those.


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## Starlight Rabbitry (Dec 16, 2007)

How is she today?


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 16, 2007)

She's doing good today. 

She still hasn't pulled any fur or anything; and the hay in her nestbox is all flat, meaning she's been laying in it, lol. I'm going to put fresh hay in it tomorrow after school and fluff it up and all. 

I felt her belly about 34 minutes ago (5:00) and I felt a HUGE heartbeat; not sure if it was just hers or all theirs beating? I tried to feel any kicks and look at her belly to see anything but nothing.I guess the babies are sleeping; lol. 

Emily

I'm very anxious for them to be born; if she is pregnant! We're starting to doubt that she is though....


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 17, 2007)

So Lily is due to have her babies any day now! We're pretty sure she's pregnant but she just doesn't look like she is. 

But today I read that most does don't unless they're having a large litter. *Wow, how large of a litter can MR does have?* I'm hoping she doesn't have many kits because we still have to get new cages! We only have exactly 9 holes and one cage isn't here right now! I'm hoping to build some cages this weekend possibly and maybe move some rabbits into another shed. Or possibly have my mom and her boyfriend move some stuff out of their end of our shed so we can add at least two more cages.

But we do have carriers for the babies....although I'm not happy about having to use those. I guess me and my sister will just build two or three cages from NIC cubes for some adult bunnies. 

I'm starting to get SO anxious (apart from being saddle sore from doing a major english jumping lesson on my horse this past weekend) but hopefully Lily will do alright. I'm going to give her tums tonite in her food. 

The question is: *what if she isn't preggo and i give her tums? Will she be ok?* I'm only going tobreakup half a one and mix it in with her food.

Emily


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## RAL Rabbitry (Dec 17, 2007)

The largest litter of mini rex that one of my does has has is 11 and she is not

a big doe. 4 of them were peanuts so she ended up raising 7.

I would say the average is 4 per litter and as a doe gets older the litters

usually get smaller.

Roger


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## BlueGiants (Dec 17, 2007)

Emily, stay calm. Most does don't really show if they are pregnant. The largest Mini Rex litter I ever had was 9 (but only 7 made it). My average size litters are between 3 and 6. They can stay with Lily until they are 8-10 weeks old. Then the boys (especially the boys!) need to be seperated. It would be a good time to start placing them in good homes. Then you won't need a lot of extra cage space.

The Tums are only an extra source of Calcium... just in case. It won't harm her whether or not she pregnant. Rabbits excrete any extra calcium in their urine. (the only concern would be sludge in the urine. But one half of a tums won't hurt her.)


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 18, 2007)

Alright. Wow that's a lot RAL! 

Don't worry, i'm calm. lol. 

So I checked on her this morning: no babies. She'll probably have them tomorrow or who knows maybe sometime today? I forgot to give her tums last night, so hopefully if she's having them right now (about 8:00 pacific time, US) then she will deliver them nicely. 

I'll crunch up a Tums when i get home from school, it'sa half day....

We're hoping she has them tomorrow so we can watch! 

Emily


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 18, 2007)

I'm home now. 

Going out to check on the rabbits soon, bring Sippi and the others in for some exercise/training. 

My mom has no Tums (which i thought she did!) and she's not going anywhere. Grr she makes me angry. On top of that we have absolutely -nothing- (or so I heard) that is raspberry-ish. So I'm off to search the kitchen for anything helpful! 

Emily


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 18, 2007)

Rechecked this link: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/6421/herbs.html

And asked my mom if she had any of these herbs (for pregnant does) and she said no. She isnt much of a cook  But her boyfriend is. Anyway is there anything else that i may find in my kitchen that can help? I know i have: 

Oatmeal (the flavored kind...)

Bread

Cereals - Mini Wheats

Anything else? lol. i know that's not much of a list but i don't feel like running back and forth between the pantry and the computer a zillion times. lol 

Some spices - which reminds me I think I know of something in there! Rosemary! I know we have some! 

Ok So i'll let y'all know what I can dig up!

Emily


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 18, 2007)

Ok so this is what I found in the spice cabinet: 

Oregano leaves

Garlic salt

Whole Cloves

(powdered?) mustard

Allspice

Ground nutmeg

Celery Salt

So can any of these things help a pregnant doe? Whilst she's in labour? 

Thanks!

Emily


Edited to add: I FOUND PARSLEY FLAKES! Are these ok too? I now just have to see what this can do......


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## BlueGiants (Dec 18, 2007)

Emily, she really doen't need anything at this point. Just leave her to do what she has to do. The oats will come in handy in a couple weeks if you have babaies. They will love it as their first solid food.

Bring Lily a littel treat, see if she will take it. Don't be upset if she doesn't. Al ot of does won't eat before they kindle. Have patience and stay calm.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 18, 2007)

Alright. I was just thinking that herbs would make her labor and delivery much easier since she's much older. 

We took her out of her cage today, felt and looked at her abdoment: def look's like she's preggo. Her belly sags and i think milk is starting to come down? She was grunting and all. I didn't want to disturb her much but she needed a clean cage and clean nestbox. 

There's pics of her (last friday) in my bunny blog. 

Emily


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 19, 2007)

Ok We'll start with last nite:


Time: About 7:45- Went out to check on the rabbits, see if Lily had done anything; no nest was built (besides the hay and little hole I had put in there for her) and no fur. So i got extra fur ready, scented it on her and all, so if she needed it she could have it. 

I noticed that her sides were like heaving in, maybe she was starting labour? Not sure. It looked kind of like she was straining; she ate some banana (sp?) and then just kept hopping around her cage. So this was a good sign!

This Morning:

Time: 9:32 - We're getting ready to head out! I'm taking the camera to take pics of the little guys (if there's any!) and we're "hopping" for some blacks, blues, opals, lilacs, and maybe some broken's!? 

Be back!

Emily


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 19, 2007)

Ok. We just got back.

There were no babies in the nest;  But, I felt her again and there was this weird sensation on her body, and she wouldn't let me touch her down near her tail, meaning maybe it was time for her to have them and she must be sore. 

Also, she was starting to gather some hay and she was schooching it all around. She also drank almost all her water, which is very rare for her. *Don't they drink a lot of water when they are about to give birth? *

Emily


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## Flashy (Dec 19, 2007)

Boofa used to drink a lot of water with labour, Sandy never did, so some buns do.

I think that's a while to be in labour, she may be struggling with a stuck kit, especially given she is older.

I really hope an experienced breeder comes on, I'm scared for your bunny.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 19, 2007)

Well I don't think she was going into labour last nite. BlueGiants said her labour should be fine, because her pelvic bones aren't fused. 

She shouldn't have a stuck kit. Nothing seemed wrong. 

Emily


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## Flashy (Dec 19, 2007)

I thought you shouldn't breed buns after a year old for the first time. Sorry, I must have been confused.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 19, 2007)

Well it's best not to. This was an accidental breeding. I just checked her. She hasn't been pulling fur but the nest looks like there's more hay in the front. 

Emily


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## Flashy (Dec 19, 2007)

I know yours was an accident, i wasn't getting at you, I just thought that after a year the risks got higher and it was dangerous for the doe, that's all.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 19, 2007)

Sorry if I made it sound like I was mad at you. I'm totally not. 

Emily


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 19, 2007)

This afternoon when we were cleaning cages, Lily was hibernating in her nestbox. A few times we noticed she had her head turned to her bottom, maybe plucking fur? Nudging her belly? We're thinking (if she _is_ pregnant) that she'll have them sometime tonite or tomorrow morning. I would sleep in the rabbitry but I'm getting a cold and my mom won't let me because of the lowering temperatures.

I wanted to sleep in there last nite, but no. And, my mom won't let us bring her inside; so I hope everything will go ok. 

Emily


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## BlueGiants (Dec 19, 2007)

It's tough when you want to be with them... :hugsquish:

Check Lily first thing in the morning. We've already discussed the dangers of breeding an older doe... so you know the outcome may not be what you want or expect.Just be ready for anything. Don't get upset, don't get mad at Lily. I'm sure she'll do the best she can. 

If she doesn't deliver by the morning, you may need to get a professional opinion. Can you take her to a vet to be xrayed or checked for a stuck kit? Her pelvic bones may not be fused, but she can still have a giant kit that can't pass. That can happen to any doe, especially the smaller breeds.

Let us know how things go. (I've got my fingers crossed for you and Lily.)


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## gentle giants (Dec 19, 2007)

I know it is nerve wracking at times, but it really is best to leave her alone. She won't want you around when she has them, she will want her privacy. I don't want to scare you more, but a lot of times a doe's first litter won't survive, even when being bred at the right age. 

Is this your first litter? I know the doe is special to you and she is older and all, but you do seem very nervous. No offense.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 19, 2007)

Thanks BlueGiants, but there's a 50/50 chance she is pregnant. My mom wouldn't take her to vet even if she was in danger of dying, she never does because she doesn't care, and she makes up excuses. I always want to take them to the vet right when they start bleeding or something and she says "they'll be fine." But I will take Lily to the vet tomorrow, because I'll call someone who will take her if she has to go. 

Gentle: Nope, this is my 5th litter.


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## BlueGiants (Dec 19, 2007)

I'll be thinking of you both... Good Luck Emily....


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## Starlight Rabbitry (Dec 20, 2007)

At this point, you should be able to feel the babies kicking. If you put her on a table facing you, gently put your hands on the lower part of her abdomen. DO NOT PRESS IN WITH YOUR FINGERS. Gently and smoothly press in with your whole hand. Do not press very hard, if you wait there for a moment, you should feel them kick. Good luck, Emily. You are doing a great job.

Sharon


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 20, 2007)

Thanks guys. 

Starlight, that's what I've been doing, although it doesn't really feel like a kick, I do feel some sort of movement that wouldn't be felt in a non-pregnant does abdomen, and how do i know this? I also felt a non-pregnant does abdomen! lol. 

We haven't yet gone out to check Lily. If she starts nesting, and doesn't have a litter, there's two things that could be happening: either a false pregnancy or endometriosis, which i have no clue what it is, but it is in the bunny's uterus, so I'm guessing it only happens in girls; but i'm not about to start thinking that's what this is. 

Emily


EDITED TO ADD: 

Ok I did my research and endometriosis is: (taken from: http://endometriosis.org/endometriosis.html) 

"Endometriosis is a condition where tissue similar to the lining of the uterus (the endometrial stroma and glands, which should only be located inside the uterus) is found elsewhere in the body. "

So I don't think that's what Lily has, but who knows. If I get really worried i will take her to the vet, because I'll use the $100 I was going to buy a saddle with, to pay for her. I would much rather have my rabbit live than buy a cheap saddle! 

Emily


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## BlueGiants (Dec 21, 2007)

Hi Emily! Any updates? How's Lily? Please let me know...


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 21, 2007)

Hi Blue Giants! Nope, no updates. Lily is doing good though. We actually think she wasn't pregnant we were just thinking/feeling/hearing things i guess. She's active, been eating, sleeping in the nestbox. lol. All the stuff she would normally do, besides the nestbox. 

But no babies to report of. I'll keep the nestbox in there for a few more days, just in case i mis-guessed her due-date. 

Emily


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## BlueGiants (Dec 21, 2007)

Better safe than sorry.... guess it will all work out! :biggrin2:


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## Munchkin (Dec 22, 2007)

I wish there was a law to stop people with no income breeding rabbits - I can't believe you have a rabbitry when still at school, and cannot afford appropriate care if any of your rabbits become ill. I can't believe your parents allow you to breed rabbits when they aren't willing to help you out in emergencies. Please reconsider waiting until you have a job, and set income before breeding further. Your rabbits deserve proper care.

I understand this one was an accident, and am **** glad it wasn't a real pregnancy but these rabbits are living creatures, and kids are not capable of giving them the care they need through pregnancy. You love your rabbits, I can see - please keep them as loved pets from here on in.

Sorry if I sound harsh - this just upsets me.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 23, 2007)

Munchkin: I do not appreciate that comment at all. I give all my rabbits proper care and have other terms of transportation to the vet if necessary. You should feel ashamed that you would even state that when you don't know much about this at all. I can afford appropriate care for my rabbits - what makes you think I can't? A lot of "young" adults have rabbitries, some kids even younger than I have them! I'm 15 years old, and am fully capable to run and manage my own rabbitry, thank you very much. 

Also, we have an income. Ok? And my rabbits are for showing, breeding and pets. If you think that what I'm doing (Trying to better the breeds I raise, raise healthy rabbits, keep all my stock in great condition) is wrong then i'm sorry for the way you feel, but you're 100% wrong in your post about my rabbits; you may not be wrong about others who do that, but that's not true about me. 


Emily


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## Munchkin (Dec 23, 2007)

I read the entire thread plus another thread where you state your parents do not agree with you breeding, so I think I have a pretty good idea of your situation, and am pretty positive you are too young to be breeding rabbits.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 23, 2007)

I never said that my parents don't agree with me breeding. I said they pick when i can breed my does. And I am not too young. There are a lot of breeders out there who's children breed rabbits. I'mdont agree with breeding bunnies that aren't purebred, yes, but if you're breeding to better a breed and it's in a safe, humane way and you have vet access I'm all for it. 

My rabbits are in the best care possible, if you don't think so come take a look. Look at my website www.freewebs.com/blueskyacresrabbitry/ and see the effort we are taking to better our rabbitry and everything. 

Just to let you know as well, I've bred rabbits before too. So I know what i'm doing thank you very much. You however, don't know much about the breeding world, possibly? Just that you know who's side your on and there's no way anyone can change it. 

Emily


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 23, 2007)

*Munchkin wrote: *


> kids are not capable of giving them the care they need through pregnancy.



As for that ^. I am capable fo giving them the care they need through pregnancy, and i'm NOT a kid. 

Emily


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## Pipp (Dec 23, 2007)

Sorry I didn't see this sooner. ('Tis the busy season!)

Munchkin, you made your point,we'd appreciate it if you don't post in this thread again. This is the Rabbitry section, it's meant for breeders. 

Let's move on, shall we? 



sas :bunnydance:


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 23, 2007)

Omg! Thank you Pipp. I couldn't have decided upon a better way to state that. 

Emily


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## TinysMom (Dec 23, 2007)

As a breeder (and moderator), I'd like to take a moment to post in here and share a few concerns. I'm not criticizing you - I'm trying to point out things that might help for the future.

While you do not have to have thousands of dollars to breed (and I'm sure most of us don't) - I would not breed again until you have been able to set aside at least enough money to get a doe x-rayed in case of problems - particularly if you're breeding an older doe or a doe for the first time. I rushed two does to the vet during non-emergency hours last week and paid $202 total for the two does to have an exam and xrays. As it turned out - they did not have stuck kits and I was thankful for that. I know a c-section can make things even more expensive and I know of lionhead breeders who have paid $500 and up for emergency c-sections and still lost the kits and the mamas. Yes - these were rare and extreme circumstances...but it can happen. I'd suggest you have at least $250 set aside towards potential vet bills.

Also - you have talked about how your mom feels about breeding animals and stuff. I would make sure I had transportation available in case I needed to go to the vet. If this isn't your parents - then perhaps a neighbor or someone else. 

I also want to point out that you have mentioned breeding another older doe and even though some of us tried to explain why it isn't good...it seemed (to me) - like you were determined to do it anyway. I would encourage you to not only visit this board and ask questions - but find a way to network with local ADULT breeders in your area and see if maybe some of them would sort of "mentor" you and take you under their wing and teach you some things. There is nothing like having a breeder take an animal and explain to you why it is showable or why they feel it would be worth breeding that particular doe or buck. Many breeders will sell "proven" does (that have had litters) - and sometimes even breed them for you with a buck they think would make a good match. They can explain about why they would pick that particular pair to breed together and the strengths and weaknesses of each animal. I think this would help your litters to do better as far as selling them after they are weaned because you would know more about the rabbits. I know I take a lot of time to study each of my animals before I breed them and think through WHY I am breeding them before I do so...for instance...does the buck have something that might help compensate for a doe's fault (or vice versa). Having a breeder handy to help you learn those things will make you a better breeder.

I'm not saying "don't breed". I'm not trying to say that you're wrong for breeding. I am trying to say that before you breed again - make sure you have a vet fund ready and that you have a doe that is of the right age to breed and that other breeders have recommended for breeding.

Peg


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 24, 2007)

TinysMom: Thank you for your input. Yes we always have money on hand in case of emergencies. We will be breeding a doe or two next year and we are planning to have them x-rayed and ultrasound-ed. But what post does it say that we were going to breed another older doe? The netherland dwarf one? Well we aren't breeding her, but no one knows that because it seems (to me) that after I reply ever one vanishes. Why's that? 

And we are planning on breedin our English Lop to a -young- doe. As in an 8 or 9 month old does. For the older does, (1-2 yrs) we are having them examined by the vet before we would breed them and if the vet and other responsible breeders in our area say not to breed, than we won't; 

Emily


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 24, 2007)

Another thing, I don't see why this post is somehow turning against me and my breeding of rabbits (and how well me and my friend take care of our rabbits), but it's making all of us (BSAR, BlueSkyAcresRabbitry-me, and FSR) very angry. 

You don't know what goes on in our rabbitry in day-to-day life, so I hate it when you all go out there and judge us like were a bunch of "little girls" who don't know what the heck we're doing. Here's a word of correction for you: We read the books, we know what we're doing, we HAVE money to take our rabbits to the vet, and we KNOW when they need to go. If you think that we would just let our rabbits die, if you THINK that our rabbits have improper care, than maybe you should come see for ourselves, MAYBE you don't know that we would NEVER let them die, and we ALWAYS DO & WILL take them to the vet and give them the best care possible. 

Emily


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## Pipp (Dec 24, 2007)

LOL! This could just be one of those 'series of misunderstandings' things, I haven't been following it. 

But except for the parental references, Peg's advice would have been the same for any newish breeder. I didn't get the impression anyone thought 15 was too young by any stretch. 

We have Moderators younger than that.  

All is well, points have been made, questions asked, answers given, and I think everybody has a clearer picture. 

But I just re-read this, and we're certainlyoff topic fromthe 'Urgent, Need Answers' post. :threadhijacked:

You'll all have tostart a new one if you want to continue. 




sas :thanks:


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## Flashy (Dec 24, 2007)

Emily,

Peg has given you very helpful, and non judgemental advice. She has tried to give you suggestions that can help you and your bunnies. Why would that make you angry?

Peg gave me a really hard time when I bred Sandy,but she was doing it for the bunnies, to make sure they were ok, and to help where necessary. It didn't make me angry, although it did scare me, but she did it for the sake of my bun.

If your buns are as important as you say they are, then you will gladly take on Peg's advice and listen to it closely because she has your buns best interests at heart.

Unfortunately, until that post about you BSAR and FSR being angry, you came across, to me, as really mature. That post showed your younger side. No, I'm not saying you are too young to breed, but I am saying that you are young, and have a lot to learn, so try to take on board everything you can.


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## Pipp (Dec 24, 2007)

Off topic posts will be deleted, sorry. 

On topic... I think does 'reabsorbing' their litters seems to be a very common thing. It seems really weird to me, but so many bunnies here have appeared pregnant (or been confirmed pregnant) and had the pregnancy simply go away. 

I'd love to have more info on that. (If anybody's ambitious, could use it for the Library). 



sas :?


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 24, 2007)

Pipp- Well (like i said in an earlier post) we weren't positively sure that she -was- pregnant, but she happened to be showing all the pregnancy signs, like growling, and squeaking when anyone came near her/touched her. So, we prepared ourselves if she needed to go the vet (which we have money to do...) and I was going to have her ultrasounded, so i asked on here if that was a good idea, since it could be so late in her pregnancy and she would just become more stressed, so Cathy (BlueGiants) said it'd be better to just wait and see what happens. But, yes we do have enough money to take our rabbits to the vet when there's emergencies, but we also have a first aid kit as well. 

Emily


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## Pipp (Dec 24, 2007)

BlueSkyAcresRabbitry* wrote: *


> Pipp- Well (like i said in an earlier post) we weren't positively sure that she -was- pregnant, but she happened to be showing all the pregnancy signs, like growling, and squeaking when anyone came near her/touched her. So, we prepared ourselves if she needed to go the vet (which we have money to do...) and I was going to have her ultrasounded, so i asked on here if that was a good idea, since it could be so late in her pregnancy and she would just become more stressed, so Cathy (BlueGiants) said it'd be better to just wait and see what happens. But, yes we do have enough money to take our rabbits to the vet when there's emergencies, but we also have a first aid kit as well.


LOL Emily, I never questioned that stuff. 

What I'm saying is that I think she WAS pregnant and reabsorbed the litter. I'm not experienced with breeding, but I've seen this so often on this forum, I think it's more common than people realize. 

This is different than stuck kitsor anyissues like that. The does appear to be pregnant, their guardians can even feel thekits moving at 14 days or three weeks or whatever, and they never give birth. (Nor do thayhave health issues). I know it's definitely not uncommon for does to reabsorb litters, but I'm beginning to think it's more common than people realize. 

I'm wondering howoften it's known to happen, and what kind of research has been done on it. It just seems to be an odd quirk of nature to me, but I'm not a rabbit.  

sas


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## Flashy (Dec 24, 2007)

*Pipp wrote: *


> BlueSkyAcresRabbitry* wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Pipp- Well (like i said in an earlier post) we weren't positively sure that she -was- pregnant, but she happened to be showing all the pregnancy signs, like growling, and squeaking when anyone came near her/touched her. So, we prepared ourselves if she needed to go the vet (which we have money to do...) and I was going to have her ultrasounded, so i asked on here if that was a good idea, since it could be so late in her pregnancy and she would just become more stressed, so Cathy (BlueGiants) said it'd be better to just wait and see what happens. But, yes we do have enough money to take our rabbits to the vet when there's emergencies, but we also have a first aid kit as well.
> ...



Emily,It's like a bunny abortion, they do it themselves all inside their body, so they can be pregnant, and then effectively abort it.

We had one that did that, and I know lots of people who have had them do it too.


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## BSAR (Dec 24, 2007)

Yah,I know that can happen. 

She's doing good today. I took the nestbox out of her cage and cleaned it. Nothing was in there so....

But yeah I think she was pregnant and reabsorbed her litter, but that's just so weird. I wish she hadn't of done that, but we put a lot of stress on her when we shouldn't have. That's the first time a bunny has done that to us, if she was pregnant. 

Emily


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 24, 2007)

Sorry bout that. didn't realize my sister hadn't logged out before I posted! ^^


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## summersvalley (Dec 24, 2007)

ok i found this info for you pipp for your library 

Reabsorption is when a pregnant doe reabsorbs the unborn litter back into her bloodstream. This usually happens if the doe is unfit to have a litter (unwell or too old). Also, this can happen if the doe is under stress.



info from here http://en.allexperts.com/q/Rabbits-703/Pregnancy.htm

my mate had a doe that would take a mating she could feel the kits moving at about 3 weeks then no babies at 31 days she tried everything as this doe was a perfectly marked butterfly mini lop with type to die for but it wasn't ment to be so she went off as a pet

shelly

xx


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## RAL Rabbitry (Dec 24, 2007)

I have a doe that was due today that absobed her litter. I palpated her

at 11 days and confirmed that she was bred. She is a proven brood doe

and was under no stress. 

Sometimes the amount of light and the time of year can cause a doe

to absorb their litter.

Roger


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