# Ovarian cancer



## thumperdude95 (Jul 4, 2009)

Hi,

I was reading an article on rabbit ovarian cancer and it said there's an 80% chance the doe can contract this disease if not continually bred after each litter. Should I worry about it as I'm hoping to breed in the future?

Cheers Thumperdude


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## murph72 (Jul 4, 2009)

I find that statement to be disconcerting for two reasons. First, I would wonder where this 80% comes from. What studies have indicated this is true? I have noticed that there are quite a few people that say that non-spayed females will likely die of cancer related to the reproductive organs. I, however, have not found this to be the case in my own rabbitry. My only doe that died of cancer was found to have had liver cancer before it spread to the rest of her organs. Cancer is so high in humans, it should not be a shock that it would also occur in rabbits. However, where the cancer starts is often not looked at by many...which is frustrating to me as a cancer survivor. How many humans die also die of cancer? I for one do not want to be constantly rebred so that it lessens my chances of ovarian cancer. I am not against spaying your animals as my cats are all spayed and neutered, but I do not like the idea of fear mongering in order to get people to spay/neuter their pets. JMO, and I'm sure I'll be bashed for this one. 

Second, I'd be wary of any article that advises you to "continually breed after each litter." This can be detrimental to the health of the doe. In some cases, does can be bred following a litter depending on how they look after that litter. However, some pregnancies are hard on the does and they need time to get back to a fit condition before they are rebred. This statement alone would make me want to discredit the source as it's not in the best interest of the doe.


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## irishbunny (Jul 4, 2009)

As far as I know it is an 80% chance by the time they reach four, unspayed rabbits often do die younger then spayed rabbits.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 4, 2009)

http://www.kanin.org/node/182

of course this is not an article for breeders but I would guess that breeding the does would lower the risk during the breeding years . You need more feedback from breeders with older unspayed does. I would guess after breeding days are over the female is at risk because of the huge amount of hormones circulating constantly in the female who is able to ovulate at any time.


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## naturestee (Jul 4, 2009)

I don't know about ovarian cancer, but UTERINE cancer is the bigger risk. It's more common. There is no evidence that breeding reduces the rate of uterine cancer. Here's a great article- with references- that's written by a breeder:
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Valley/1155/UC.html

And more info on spay/neuter and uterine cancer:
http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=12040&forum_id=10

Oh, and the 80% rate includes all tumors of the uterus, many of which are not malignant. AKA not fatal and generally not called "cancer". However, uterine cancer is probably the most common cancer of rabbits. I do know a number of people who have lost rabbits to it or where it was found during the spay of an adult adopted/rescued rabbit. Some of these have included ex-breeder rabbits.


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## murph72 (Jul 4, 2009)

An older doe would be like an older woman. You see a decrease in the number of kits the doe is producing...which is an indication that you should no longer be breeding her. As the doe is aging her hormone levels will decreaseand she will ovulate less. It's the same with any living creature, human or otherwise.


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## murph72 (Jul 4, 2009)

I wonder if supplemental estrogen would also increase cancer rates in rabbits as it has been shown to do in humans? It was a common practice for many years (and, quite frankly still is) to give women in menopause estrogen...now they're linking it to a higher likelihood of breast cancer. Several cancers can be linked to hormonal levels, so I don't expect it to be different in rabbits.


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## bunnybunbunb (Jul 4, 2009)

I lost a doe at age 4 from a female cancer. When she was two years old she had a litter, a few months later I tried to rebreed her for her last litter and she didn't take. I tried to breed her many times but nothing so I gave up. That was the only sign. A year and half later she started showing signs of illness and becoming "content", she was always a stubborn moody girl, and giving up. The day I started work I came home and found her dead. I truely miss her, she was my girly  Only doe that I know of that I lost to a female cancer, that is why I am so for spaying rabbuts you truely want to keep as pets or after breeding years. It is not worth the risk, in my opinion.

I very much disagree with the whole keeping them bred so they do not get cancer, it is just something breeders use to beable to justify constant over breeding. Well... at least I believe so.


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## thumperdude95 (Jul 4, 2009)

Thanks for all the comments, and so quick too.

I'll take all this into account when I start breeding, I too am against rebreeding constantly, it'll mess up her hormones and stuff. I think after her breeding years I will have her spayed.

Cheers Thumperdude


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## murph72 (Jul 4, 2009)

If you can have her safely spayed, that would be a good option. In my area "safe" and "spay" for a bunny cannot go into the same sentence. We have vets that can pretty safely neuter, but the spayingis another situation all together. Some vets locally refuse to even try it because they have not had a good success rate. Others will do it, but I'd rather take my chances not having my does die on the table when they are perfectly healthy otherwise.

My doe that died of liver cancer also showed few signs prior to her death. She basically started slowing down and then had some difficulty jumping as high as she once did. Her eating habits were consistent. In fact, she died when they tried to take a blood sample at the vet. It was sudden and the necropsy showed that the cancer was everywhere inside of her. She was one tough bun if we couldn't see much change in her with things being that bad internally.


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## bunniekrissy (Jul 6, 2009)

Rabbits that are bred do not have as high a rate of uterine cancer. However, for pet rabbits it is quite high. Breeding your pet, however, is NOT a good solution to this problem. (Just throwing that out there because I have heard people argue it.) Spaying also can make your rabbit a friendlier, more well behaved pet with better litter habits so it really is worth it


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jul 6, 2009)

The 80% statistics are false, BTW. Just pointing that out. I don't know any breeders who have had a doe die of uterine OR ovarian cancer and that's a good chunk of bunnies right there. 80% is a statistic used by the HRS to scare people.


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## NorthernAutumn (Jul 6, 2009)

*OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *


> The 80% statistics are false, BTW. Just pointing that out. I don't know any breeders who have had a doe die of uterine OR ovarian cancer and that's a good chunk of bunnies right there. 80% is a statistic used by the HRS to scare people.


My apologies, but your statement is erroneous.

*naturestee wrote: *


> I don't know about ovarian cancer, but UTERINE cancer is the bigger risk. It's more common. There is no evidence that breeding reduces the rate of uterine cancer. Here's a great article- with references- that's written by a breeder:
> http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Valley/1155/UC.html
> 
> And more info on spay/neuter and uterine cancer:
> ...




As Naturestee just mentioned, the 80% statistic refers to* the development of any and all tumours in the uterus.
Malignant and benign tumours are included in this figure.*
A more appropriate remark would be to say that some people _confuse_ the meaning of this statistic


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## minirexmama (Jul 8, 2009)

I'm curious what the study specifics were that came up with 80% as a number. Does anyone have a link? I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with it simply because I have been taught to research where your information is coming from before making an informed decision.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jul 8, 2009)

*NorthernAutumn wrote: *


> *OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *
> 
> 
> > The 80% statistics are false, BTW. Just pointing that out. I don't know any breeders who have had a doe die of uterine OR ovarian cancer and that's a good chunk of bunnies right there. 80% is a statistic used by the HRS to scare people.
> ...



No, I was not meaning to say that some people confuse the meaning of the statistic.I meant exactly what I said, and the statement is not erroneous, but you can believe what you wish. I am trying to find the article, but it was hosted on a geocites site and since they are closing down, I believe it was taken off. I'll continue searching and post if I can find it. It had the exact details of the HRS study into uterine cancer and it showed many inconsistencies. Beyond that, the sampling of rabbits used in the study was so low that the results could not be considered useful in research. That, coupled with the fact that neither I myself or any of my "rabbit friends" have had any complications related to uterine cancer makes me 100% certain that the statistic is a bunch of...well, you know. If there were an 80% chance of anything,I would have personally come across it somewhere in the nearly 10 years now that I've been a part of the rabbit community.


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## murph72 (Jul 8, 2009)

I tend to agree. That one argument in the article by the breeder is that all breeders get rid of does that are older as they are no longer producing offspring for them, so they don't see the high rate of uterine cancer. Perhaps I'm a softy, but I don't see my buns as a commodity. If the doe is too old to be bred she stays with me until she passes. I too have not witnessed a large amount of older does getting uterine cancer. It's not likely that I've only possessed that 20% that didn't get it. 

In a study I like to see replication. Who else replicated this study where 80% was found?


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## bunnybunbunb (Jul 8, 2009)

How old has your does lives? That is a big factor, if they died around 6-7 years or less then I would say it was due to cancer unless illness struck. But again, cancer weakens the immune system and will cause them to be sick easier. So unless you have had a necropsy on every doe of yours that died and there was no cancer found you can not say they did not have cancer when they died.

Not that this is any solid proof of cancer but a good ex-breeder friend of mine who bred for over 20 years sold his does and bucks at 3 years of age. He said from his years of experiance at 3 years old does are missing when bred. He said it might take 2-4 diffrent times before they take or they may take the first time. He said they just became inconsistant in producing around the age of 3. He included bucks, too.

I figure after 20 years of experiance with breeding for both show and later down the road just pets, with keeping everything heavily documented, it can pretty well be taken as more than an exageration. Does not mean cancer but it does mean something was changing and 3-4 years old is when the risks grow. Oh, and the years he bred when I knew him he had roughly 50 adult breeders at a time, I knew him in the late show through pet stage of his breeding life.


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## irishbunny (Jul 8, 2009)

*bunnybunbunb wrote: *


> How old has your does lives? That is a big factor, if they died around 6-7 years or less then I would say it was due to cancer unless illness struck. But again, cancer weakens the immune system and will cause them to be sick easier. So unless you have had a necropsy on every doe of yours that died and there was no cancer found you can not say they did not have cancer when they died.


This is what I was thinking


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## Happi Bun (Jul 8, 2009)

When there is a debate, I like to see scientific statistics to back it up (which Autumn provided, thanks!). Not just personal experience. If you can find an article, saying otherwise, with as many good references as that one had and scientific evidence to support the information then you will have my attention.


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## tonyshuman (Jul 8, 2009)

Hi,
The house rabbit article noted in this post is here: http://www.rabbitnetwork.org/articles/spay.shtml

You will note that it says "up to 85%". Also, it is from 2003, and doesn't give any references. Finally, it's from the House Rabbit Network, not the House Rabbit Society, so please don't blame HRS for spreading misinformation. Their article on spaying and neutering is here: http://www.rabbit.org/health/spay.html

Here is a bibliography from the HRS with some of these frequently quoted statistics: http://www.rabbit.org/care/bibliography.html

This references a study in which 11 of 12 rabbits had uterine cancer, and the other one from which the 80% figure comes from. The 80% figure comes from a study in which 80% of rabbits that died between the ages of 5 and 6 were found to have uterine tumors on necropsy. These were not necessarily cancerous tumors, and they were not necessarily the cause of death in these rabbits. You may also note that both of these studies are really old, so I'll look into some more recent studies today, to see if I can find some.


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## tonyshuman (Jul 8, 2009)

*murph72 wrote: *


> I wonder if supplemental estrogen would also increase cancer rates in rabbits as it has been shown to do in humans? It was a common practice for many years (and, quite frankly still is) to give women in menopause estrogen...now they're linking it to a higher likelihood of breast cancer. Several cancers can be linked to hormonal levels, so I don't expect it to be different in rabbits.


The consensus is that the role of estrogen in promoting cancer in female reproductive organs is hard to determine. Some studies have shown that it promotes uterine cancer, some have shown that it reduces the risk. source: _J. Vet. Med. Sci. _69 (9): 981-984, 2007.

"In uterine adenocarcinoma, the incidence increases with age and nearly all breeds can be affected. The carcinogenic effects of estrogens have been implicated in the evolution of uterine cancer [12]. In another study, however, the administration of estrogens to female Dutch rabbits actually reduced the incidence of endometrial adenocarcinomas [2,12]. The role of estrogens in development of this tumor is equivocal. ... However, there is as yet no precise knowledge of the role of estrogen in tumorigenesis of the uterus." 
ref 2: Baba, N. and von Haam, E. 1972. _Am. J. Pathol. _*68*: 653-656
ref 12: Percy, D. H. and Barthold, S. W. 2001. pp. 303-306. In _Pathology of Laboratory Rodents and Rabbits_, 2nd ed. Iowa State Press, Ames.

Sorry I don't have time to chase down these two references for you.


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## tonyshuman (Jul 8, 2009)

Also able to get this abstract, but not the full article: 
Uterine adenocorcinoma in the rabbit in contrast to other domestic animals, uterine adenocarcinoma in rabbits is quite common. Within a period of 16 months, 28 patients underwent ovariohysterectomy in the Small Animal Clinic in Frankfurt. In 21 rabbits (which were all more than 3 years old), a uterine adenocarcinoma was diagnosed histologically. Follow-up examinations could be performed in 19 rabbits. Till the 31(th) October 2005 16 rabbits were still alive and in good health. The symptoms of rabbits with uterine adenocarcinoma can vary immensely and can lead to misinterpretation. Abdominal palpation and an X-ray seem to be sufficient for the detection of uterine abnormalties; therefore all rabbits older than 3 years should be examined with respect to a possibly affected uterus. Because of the high incidence of this neoplasm, a preventive ovariohysterctomy should be performed in all female rabbits.

From Streicher, M. _Kleintierpraxis_ *51*(6), 309-314: 2006.

This study gives us a value of 75% of rabbits having a uterine adenocarcinoma.


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## tonyshuman (Jul 8, 2009)

All of the studies I'm getting reference that 1958 article by Green, so it must be very well respected. I don't have access to the article at the moment, but I hopefully will within a few days.

More reading, esp. on the role of estrogen in reproductive cancer (in humans as well) http://dels.nas.edu/ilar_n/ilarjournal/45_2/pdfs/v4502cline.pdf


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jul 8, 2009)

*murph72 wrote: *


> In a study I like to see replication. Who else replicated this study where 80% was found?



Exactly. This "up to 85%" figure is coming from ONE study done over 50 years ago. As we all know even from human research, certain lineages can be prone to cancer and it often runs in families. Who is to say that ALL rabbits are at such a risk as this one person's line...and rabbits outside that specific breed too? I think the guy who did the study had been breeding for something like 30-some years. By then, a line is pretty far linebred, and who knows if that could have had an affect to.

That to me leaves endless inconcistencies. A study must be done over and over, with a sampling of all breeds, all ages, etc. for me to even begin to consider it as fact (or even possibility).


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## NorthernAutumn (Jul 8, 2009)

*tonyshuman wrote: *


> Also able to get this abstract, but not the full article:
> Uterine adenocorcinoma in the rabbit in contrast to other domestic animals, uterine adenocarcinoma in rabbits is quite common. Within a period of 16 months, 28 patients underwent ovariohysterectomy in the Small Animal Clinic in Frankfurt. In 21 rabbits (which were all more than 3 years old), a uterine adenocarcinoma was diagnosed histologically. Follow-up examinations could be performed in 19 rabbits. Till the 31(th) October 2005 16 rabbits were still alive and in good health. The symptoms of rabbits with uterine adenocarcinoma can vary immensely and can lead to misinterpretation. Abdominal palpation and an X-ray seem to be sufficient for the detection of uterine abnormalties; therefore all rabbits older than 3 years should be examined with respect to a possibly affected uterus. Because of the high incidence of this neoplasm, a preventive ovariohysterctomy should be performed in all female rabbits.
> 
> From Streicher, M. _Kleintierpraxis_ *51*(6), 309-314: 2006.
> ...


Thank you so much Claire for doing a journal hunt! Much appreciated.

This study was performed in 2006.

Surprisingly, many of the drugs and treatments that you receive have been around for a shorter period of time than the earliest studies of tumours existing in rabbit uteruses. 
However, we consume those drugs with confidence. 

As those articles point out, there have been multiple studies done since that time on the topic.

(As an aside, Watson and Crick's theory of DNA arrangement was the very first of its kind, and it was highly accurate for its time.) 

I don't think it makes sense to negate all of the research since 1958 that concurs with the trend.


The 2006 study shows 75% occurence of tumours in utereus after age 3
(^The difference between 75-85% is pretty small beans.)

***Again, just because a tumor shows up, doesn't mean it is *cancerous.* They are only talking about the presence of tumours.

Just because you haven't experienced cancerous complications in your does doesn't mean that a tumor of some form doesn't exist.
Just means that the tumors present in your does are not cancerous .


(Which means, both these breeders and the studies agree  )


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## Maureen Las (Jul 8, 2009)

http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB/Proceedings/PR05000/PR00404.htm

http://www.radil.missouri.edu/info/dora/RABBPAGE/neo.htm#II.


http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=18+1803&aid=2147

http://homepage.mac.com/mattocks/morfz/BBcancer.html

http://www.vet2pet.co.uk/pethealth/rabbithealth/uterinecancer_rabbit.asp

http://www.kanin.org/node/182

http://bunnyluv.org/bunnyfacts_new.htm

Most of these were written by veterinarians . I don't need a research article (although you can find some in the references at the last page of several articles. )

I also don't need a % rate 

Ijust need to read what I just posted.....


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## murph72 (Jul 8, 2009)

I guess I'll have some reading to do...boy! Coincidentally I just returned from an American Cancer Society function. There has been a far greater amount of studies done on cancer in humans --obviously. I can say that, in my opinion, there has not been enough studies done on rabbits to come to any kind of real conclusion. In the studies on humans they have found definite genetic links. I for one battle melonoma. I was originally not considered a "candidate" for this disease as it was not in my family history. Now every member of my family is looked at by dermatologists because I am the family history. They tell you there is a genetic tie to melonoma and that it comes from sun exposure. Certain people are genetically predisposed to it. I am one of those and I have had melonoma where the sun never shined. My mother had breast cancer (also the first in the family for what is supposed to be genetic) due to the use of estrogen supplements for less than a year. The genetic tie is there in people as I'm sure it is in pets. When looking at the rabbits who have contracted these cancers a family study would also need to take place to rule out genetics as the cause...which is a point that OakRidge also made. As cancer researchersare looking heavily at genetic and environmental causes, this should also be the direction for those in the veterinary field studying cancer rates in rabbits.

Samantha, I am glad I do not know the breeder who culls his bucks and does at three years of age. He and I obviously do not have the same view of rabbits. Some of my best bucks and does are older than three when they become better at what they're doing. I just bred a doe the other day that it was her first time. I gave her to a young buck twice and she didn't take to him. It took putting in my more experience older buck to get the job done right. I also don't see the bunnies I get attached to as expendable. What is this man doing with these rabbits? Does he give them away as pets? Does he sell them to another breeder after he deems them unfit? I see your point to spaying and neutering, but in my area spaying is truly not safe yet. We don't all live in areas that have rabbit-savvy vets. It would also cost an arm and a leg if I did convice one of the vets to do it, and I'm not sure it would be a good gamble. 

Many of my older does have lived to be close to ten years old. I have only lost one doe to cancer and it started asliver cancer. Saying that the other does that have died had cancer but died from complications brought on by the cancer is like taking a stab in the dark.I have lost does to all sorts of problems, and many of them could never have been linked back to cancer. Did they have cancer when they died of something completely unrelated? Hey, maybe. Did it start necessarily in the uterus, hey, maybe not. Will the cancer elsewhere move to the uterus? Yes. Definitely. It will also move to many other areas the lymph system and veins will move it to.


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## bunnybunbunb (Jul 9, 2009)

He sold them to breeders. He always told, at least me, their problems if any. Mostly it was "I just sell them at 3 years old, however they can breed longer".

I am in rural kentucky, you think we have many rabbit savvy vets here? Nope. I have found one. The one was a *cough* but this lady is good. But at $200 a spay it would take me months to be able to afford it if I needed to spay someone again.


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## murph72 (Jul 9, 2009)

I still can't imagine he doesn't get any more attached to his rabbits than that. I have a hard time selling an adult rabbit even if I know it is going to a good home if I've already bonded with it. Some rabbits it's easier than others, but I can't imagine doing it with all of them...but maybe I'm too soft.

I tried to get two females spayed a few years ago...maybe five now. The normal vet I go to for my cats won't even see rabbits. The two that do see rabbits refuse to do a spay, only a neuter. The vet I take my rabbits to sent me to what they called a specialist that was over an hour away. When I got there he informed me he'd only do the spay in the case of emergency. It seems the last bunny he spayed was his daughter's and it died on the table. 

If I look on the list of "rabbit savvy vets" the closest one is over three hours from me. That would be over a six hour trip in the car for the bunny. I just don't think that's safe for them. They scare so easily sometimes. I could probably talk my vet that just tried to spay my Sweet Pea to try another...but I'm afraid they will die just like she did. I think he only tried her because we thought there was no other choice and he honestly wanted the experience. I'm not sure I can hand him a healthy rabbit and ask him to spay. Perhaps that makes me a coward, but I'd rather take my chances with the cancer threat.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jul 9, 2009)

*murph72 wrote: *


> I still can't imagine he doesn't get any more attached to his rabbits than that.


It's not so much that one doesn't get attached or love their rabbits any less than someone else. A person who is dedicated to their breed just realizes that they must keep the herd moving in order to improve. You can't just have 20+ useless (in the breeding sense) does sitting around for 7-10 more years!

Most breeders will move on older breeding stock by the age of 2 or 3 at a discounted price. That usually gives the new owner a few more litters out of them before the rabbit has to be petted out. Then at around 4, they are sold as a pet.Rabbits usually live a whole lot longer than 4, so most people don't mind "adopting" older show rabbits from breeders.


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## bunnybunbunb (Jul 9, 2009)

I just had an almost arguement with two breeders on facebook about selling to petstores. They do not feel they have a responcibility to the rabbits they produce that is not "good enough" for them. I disagree and *cough* sure do not want to be put in the same book as them, as a breeder. I take in rescues and rehome them. Any pet bunnies that are born will stay until found proper homes. If that means my breeding needs to be put on hold for cage space then so be it, it is MY responsibility to the rabbits -I- brought into the world.

I get very attached, and it makes breeding hard due to keeping space for breeding stock and growing out.

The vet I currently use is not on the list but she seems very knowledgable. She said she has been doing rabbit spays/neuters for at least 7+ years which I find amazing since I know vets who have been vets for 20+ years and have never done a rabbit desextion. She is not only up on medicine ok for rabbits, she was very willing to vgive Metacam which the vet who did's Becca's spay was not, but she knows nutrition and diet needs. She was very friendly and talked for a good 20 minutes to us. I like her and she is only 40-50 minutes away.


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## tonyshuman (Jul 9, 2009)

*murph72 wrote: *


> I tried to get two females spayed a few years ago...maybe five now. The normal vet I go to for my cats won't even see rabbits. The two that do see rabbits refuse to do a spay, only a neuter. The vet I take my rabbits to sent me to what they called a specialist that was over an hour away. When I got there he informed me he'd only do the spay in the case of emergency. It seems the last bunny he spayed was his daughter's and it died on the table.
> 
> If I look on the list of "rabbit savvy vets" the closest one is over three hours from me. That would be over a six hour trip in the car for the bunny. I just don't think that's safe for them. They scare so easily sometimes. I could probably talk my vet that just tried to spay my Sweet Pea to try another...but I'm afraid they will die just like she did. I think he only tried her because we thought there was no other choice and he honestly wanted the experience. I'm not sure I can hand him a healthy rabbit and ask him to spay. Perhaps that makes me a coward, but I'd rather take my chances with the cancer threat.


It's too bad there aren't any really rabbit-savvy vets near you. It sounds like the rabbit specialist you see isn't very experienced with rabbits, as it is very rare for rabbits to die from improper anesthesia, and errors in the surgery (especially the kind that lead to death) are also very rare. I am lucky to live in a modest-sized city with many rabbit-savvy vets, and a vet school, all of which do spays. The shelter vets even will do them for $40, if you demonstrate financial need I think. They are very successful at the shelter, spaying even older females (age 3-7) that come in.

I have heard on this forum of several bunnies that had uterine cancer, and that scares me. Most of the older unspayed females seem to get it, from my experience in the Infirmary. It just scares me because it's so easy for them to hide the cancer until it's too late to really do anything, and it has metastasized to other organs.

Also, my bunnies are sassy and smelly enough that I don't think I'd want to deal with the hormones of an unspayed doe.

Re: the car ride, my guys regularly go with us on trips. We just went to MI last weekend, which took 8.5hrs on the way there, and 7 on the way back. We also go to GA about 2x a year, which is a 12+ hr drive, and they just sleep most of the time (Muffin gets a bit bothered). I would only worry about surgery complications. Being so far away, if something happened it would be difficult to get help. I think the drive would be fine for her, unless she's one of those bunnies that totally freaks out in the car, but you might want to stay nearby for a night at a pet-friendly hotel to make sure she recovers from surgery ok before making the trip back home.


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## murph72 (Jul 9, 2009)

OakRidge, I also breed, but there are certain does that I keep with me until they pass. I live on a 42 acre farm, so it's usually only an issue of making a cage to house a bunny in if it's a space issue. There are some that I have sold as pets and others that I decide I no longer need for my breeding program, so they go to other breeders. However, I do not specifically look at a doe and say, "Oh, you're 3 so I need to move you down the road." I will keep a doe as long as she is an asset to the breeding program...but I will also keep bunnies that I consider to be my favorites. I got into the hobby because I love the personalities, so it would be a shame to not keep the ones whose personalities are also my favorites. The only time they move on to other homes is if it is to a personal friend who also loves them as much as I do.

Samantha, you are lucky to have a good rabbit vet so close. I was talking to my friend who is located in a more rural area than even I am. She thinks I'm lucky because my vet will actually listen to me and wants to learn. I guess we all look at others who have it better off than we do...it's all relative. Unfortunately, spaying in my area is far too risky as of yet. On one hand I want to give the vet the opportunity to try spaying, but I hate to give him a healthy rabbit to do it on if it means I may lose them. I'm not sure I'm willing to make that gamble with their lives on the operating table.

Claire, The does that I'd have spayed are not used to car rides as I donot show a doe that has been bred. If she was ever in a car, it would have been early in her life. I also would be afraid of complications and then I'd be so far from home. In addition, Ithink it's best for the bunny to return to a familiar place after such a surgery and a hotel certainly wouldn't be that. Then there's the cost involved. I think my husband would kill me if I started carting bunnies on a six hour trip to be spayed at the cost of hundreds of dollars. The hobby is expensive as it is -- wow would that be a huge expense to swallow on top of it. I'm afraid he'd tell me it was time to close up shop. You are right about them hiding their cancer. My doe that had liver cancer hid it like a real champ. The only sign was that she was not as nimble at hopping up on things as she had been, but at first I credited that to her getting older. When I took her in to the vet for the first time and she died so quickly for them they were shocked since she had looked so good. The necropsy revealed cancer throughout her. The vet said it was amazing that nobody saw any signs since she had it so thoroughly.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jul 9, 2009)

*murph72 wrote: *


> OakRidge, I also breed, but there are certain does that I keep with me until they pass. I live on a 42 acre farm, so it's usually only an issue of making a cage to house a bunny in if it's a space issue. There are some that I have sold as pets and others that I decide I no longer need for my breeding program, so they go to other breeders. However, I do not specifically look at a doe and say, "Oh, you're 3 so I need to move you down the road." I will keep a doe as long as she is an asset to the breeding program...but I will also keep bunnies that I consider to be my favorites. I got into the hobby because I love the personalities, so it would be a shame to not keep the ones whose personalities are also my favorites. The only time they move on to other homes is if it is to a personal friend who also loves them as much as I do.


Right, I'm not saying that I look at a doe and immediately kick her out at any certain age too. I was just saying that it would not be practical to keep each and every breeding rabbit until they pass naturally. It would be a setback as a breeder, and it is also a benefit to the rabbit itself. What bun wouldn't love to spend its last years as a spoiled house bun, ya know?

*I just had an almost arguement with two breeders on facebook about selling to petstores.* 

By "petting out", I didn't necessarily mean pet store. That just means to sell as a pet, rather than breeding stock. I have a different view of pet stores, but that's kind of another topic. Whatever you decide to do with your pet bunnies is fine, I just meant retiring them to a pet home, one way or another.


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