# Need advice for m bunny



## KutuKuti (Jun 11, 2018)

Hello everyone,
I am writing from West Bengal, India. Here we do not have any rabbit savvy vets and the vets prescribe canine and feline medications for bunnies. For the last few months I
am seeing that my bunny, Kutu's tummy is appearing swollen. I did a X-ray but no one was able to understand anything. Now in the recent x-ray his tummy is more swollen and there is a mass in his tummy. Nobody here can understand it. I am attaching the recent Xray as well as the previous xray. The mass can be seen in the previous Xray as well. Can you please tell me what you all think it is ? And what should be done about it. 
Thank you.


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## Popsicles (Jun 12, 2018)

I’m speaking to some colleagues to get their view, and I’ll get back to you!


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## KutuKuti (Jun 12, 2018)

Popsicles said:


> I’m speaking to some colleagues to get their view, and I’ll get back to you!


Thank you so much.


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## Popsicles (Jun 12, 2018)

We are a bit unsure, I would like to know how it feels on palpation? And if he has any symptoms? Eating and drinking normally? My main thought is caecal impaction but he wouldn’t still have that since January? Very confused, and very concerned for this rabbit’s welfare


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## KutuKuti (Jun 13, 2018)

Popsicles said:


> We are a bit unsure, I would like to know how it feels on palpation? And if he has any symptoms? Eating and drinking normally? My main thought is caecal impaction but he wouldn’t still have that since January? Very confused, and very concerned for this rabbit’s welfare


Thank you for looking into his X-ray. In January I had taken the X-ray because Kutu's stomach appeared a bit swollen to me. But apart from that he had no other symptoms. His pooping and appetite was normal. Even when his swelling did not reduce and it appeared more swollen I took him for another Xray this month. For the last few days his appetite has reduced and his poops lessened. I am giving him Ranitidine. On feeling his stomach a vet here said that he has fluid and food in his tummy. Kutu does not drink much water I have to syringe feed him water. Also he was neutered at a very young age. The vet said it would be difficult for him to neuter later. Also after his neuter he had ripped his one stitch. I took him to the vet and he had given an ointment. After applying the ointment he had seizures, later he changed the ointment. So he had that area open for a few days. Could this have led to some infection growing there ? Could it be peritonitis? Thank you so much for your help once again. This vet who did his neuter so badly is also responsible for thr death of my other bunny due to to wrong medications. That is why I do not trust sny vets here. I have also consulted other vets here but no one can understand what it is.


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## Thumperina (Jun 13, 2018)

I am not going to be a lot of help, but are you sure that Ranitidine is safe for bunnies?


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## KutuKuti (Jun 13, 2018)

Thumperina said:


> I am not going to be a lot of help, but are you sure that Ranitidine is safe for bunnies?


Ranitidine is actually Zantac. An expert suggested me to give Kutu Rantac syrup. I looked up the net and found it is often used during on rabbits. Do you think its unsafe ? Although another expert told me not to use rantac if bunny is pooping. Kutu's poops are less but is it okay to give rantac ? He is also producing soft unformed ceco a lot.


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## Popsicles (Jun 14, 2018)

If your desire is to increase gut motility, metaclopramide or cisapride are better drug options - ranitidine does increase motility but only as a side effect. It is not unsafe, but not sure how useful it is.
When you say your bunny was neutered early - how long ago was this? Since he has had this mass since at least January it is unlikely to be an infection. 
If you say there is fluid in the abdomen I suggest the vet could do an abdominocentesis (stick a needle in and remove some fluid) and test the fluid to find out what kind of cells are in there. 
Keep feeding him make sure the poops stay normal, syringe feed him critical care if you have to, or mushed up pellets.


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## KutuKuti (Jun 14, 2018)

Popsicles said:


> If your desire is to increase gut motility, metaclopramide or cisapride are better drug options - ranitidine does increase motility but only as a side effect. It is not unsafe, but not sure how useful it is.
> When you say your bunny was neutered early - how long ago was this? Since he has had this mass since at least January it is unlikely to be an infection.
> If you say there is fluid in the abdomen I suggest the vet could do an abdominocentesis (stick a needle in and remove some fluid) and test the fluid to find out what kind of cells are in there.
> Keep feeding him make sure the poops stay normal, syringe feed him critical care if you have to, or mushed up pellets.


He was neutered in June 2015 when he was 4 to 5 months old. I have been asking all the vets to do a needle aspiration on Kutu. But none of the vets are agreeing to do so. Also Kutu's poops are sometimes oval and he normally poops around 450 poops. But now he is pooping less. Could the oval poops mean something ? Could it be megacolon ? Thank you once again for helping me.


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## Popsicles (Jun 14, 2018)

Why won’t they do it? It is a very simple procedure, even I could do it haha. With mega colon I would expect less separate poops and more of just a mess of faecal matter. Sometimes they are slightly oval which isn’t a problem, could you send a picture? It’s a truly baffling case


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## KutuKuti (Jun 14, 2018)

Popsicles said:


> Why won’t they do it? It is a very simple procedure, even I could do it haha. With mega colon I would expect less separate poops and more of just a mess of faecal matter. Sometimes they are slightly oval which isn’t a problem, could you send a picture? It’s a truly baffling case


Sure. I will post a picture. But for the last few days he is pooping bit less and the poops are more round and less oval. Also his ceco is liquid not formed. An expert suggested me to give him metronidazole. Should I give him ? He has a very sensitive tummy and has adverse reactions to many meds. Hence I am scared to give him any meds. Does ranitidine have any side effect ? 
Thank you so much for helping me.


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## Popsicles (Jun 14, 2018)

Who is the expert? A veterinarian? It would be useful if it is coccidiosis but this seems unlikely - it would not be a longterm disease and you would expect to see very watery diarrhoea etc. Metronidazole is an antibiotic and it should not be given unless there is an infection, or suspected infection. 
I’m not confident on the side effects of ranitidine, but I’m not sure why that would be the drug of choice at this point?
Try and make sure he eats lots of fibre - try adding hay every couple f hours to encourage him to eat it. That should help with gut motility, better poos, and solid caecotropes that he will want to eat more.


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## KutuKuti (Jun 14, 2018)

Popsicles said:


> Who is the expert? A veterinarian? It would be useful if it is coccidiosis but this seems unlikely - it would not be a longterm disease and you would expect to see very watery diarrhoea etc. Metronidazole is an antibiotic and it should not be given unless there is an infection, or suspected infection.
> I’m not confident on the side effects of ranitidine, but I’m not sure why that would be the drug of choice at this point?
> Try and make sure he eats lots of fibre - try adding hay every couple f hours to encourage him to eat it. That should help with gut motility, better poos, and solid caecotropes that he will want to eat more.


Kutu used to eat lots of hay but after introducing pellets he no longer eats much hay. Now he only eats SPS third cut timothy hay. Is it okay to give him unlimited 3rd cut timothy hay ? And he is given Oxbow organic pellets. Also do you think his molars are overgrown ? Could the mass in his abdomen be a tumor or maybe an abscess ?


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## Popsicles (Jun 14, 2018)

I have no idea about different cuts of hay, but it is very important he has unlimited hay - if he is choosig to eat pellets instead you need to give less pellets. Hay is much more important, it should make up 80% of the diet.
If his molars are overgrown he will est less because his mouth hurts, and might also start to get watery eyes too as the roots push on the tear ducts. Does he have any symptoms that suggest this? The only way to know now for sure is to do dental X-rays. 
It’s difficult to say without taking a sample, which is what you need a vet to do really. Or even an ultrasound could be useful. It’s impossible to diagnose this from an X-ray alone.


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## KutuKuti (Jun 15, 2018)

Popsicles said:


> I have no idea about different cuts of hay, but it is very important he has unlimited hay - if he is choosig to eat pellets instead you need to give less pellets. Hay is much more important, it should make up 80% of the diet.
> If his molars are overgrown he will est less because his mouth hurts, and might also start to get watery eyes too as the roots push on the tear ducts. Does he have any symptoms that suggest this? The only way to know now for sure is to do dental X-rays.
> It’s difficult to say without taking a sample, which is what you need a vet to do really. Or even an ultrasound could be useful. It’s impossible to diagnose this from an X-ray alone.


Sometimes his eyes appear a bit shiny. Is that abnormal ? I will get his USG done then. Also his tummy is swelling a lot. Can his stomach get ruptured ? Can the mass inside burst ? I am really scared. Another vet today after palpating him said he has UTI. I did his urine culture test a few months ago and it came out clear. He did have UTI earlier though. I will do another urine test but no one is agreeing to do the needle aspiration.


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## Popsicles (Jun 15, 2018)

Shiny isn’t abnormal, but if there is a lot of wet under the eyes like he has been producing excess tears that is something to worry about. USG? Do you suspect a urinary problem then? 
It depends what the structure is that is swelling.. some masses certainly can rupture. It also is probably causing a lot of pain and I would feel better if he was on some pain medication?
I don’t know what your vet would be palpating to diagnose a UTI.. that isn’t something you can diagnose on palpation. It is impossible for me to tell you much more without proper tests and feeling and seeing him for myself, I’m so sorry that your Vets are so useless. 
I would be very worried at this point that if it cannot be diagnosed, and keeps swelling, your bunny will be suffering greatly and it might soon be time that having him put to sleep is the kinder option.. I know that’s very sad but it would be horrible to see him suffering for much longer.


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## KutuKuti (Jun 15, 2018)

I


Popsicles said:


> Shiny isn’t abnormal, but if there is a lot of wet under the eyes like he has been producing excess tears that is something to worry about. USG? Do you suspect a urinary problem then?
> It depends what the structure is that is swelling.. some masses certainly can rupture. It also is probably causing a lot of pain and I would feel better if he was on some pain medication?
> I don’t know what your vet would be palpating to diagnose a UTI.. that isn’t something you can diagnose on palpation. It is impossible for me to tell you much more without proper tests and feeling and seeing him for myself, I’m so sorry that your Vets are so useless.
> I would be very worried at this point that if it cannot be diagnosed, and keeps swelling, your bunny will be suffering greatly and it might soon be time that having him put to sleep is the kinder option.. I know that’s very sad but it would be horrible to see him suffering for much longer.


I also thought that UTI cannot be palpated. He said that he could palpate the kidney. Do you think that the mass in the Xray could be his cecum ? Can they get an obstruction in their cecum ? I really cannot thank you enough for helping me so much.


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## Popsicles (Jun 16, 2018)

It is normal to be able to palpate the kidney in a rabbit. If it is enlarged, That’s a problem, but it wouldn’t mean it is a UTI.
Yes my original thought was caecal obstruction (see my first message) but I’m sure he wouldn’t still have been pooping and eating for so long. Obstruction/impaction are usually an acute onset of symptoms.
You’re welcome and I just wish I could help more.


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## KutuKuti (Jun 16, 2018)

Popsicles said:


> It is normal to be able to palpate the kidney in a rabbit. If it is enlarged. That’s a problem, but it wouldn’t mean it is a UTI.
> Yes my original thought was caecal obstruction (see my first message) but I’m sure he wouldn’t still have been pooping and eating for so long. Obstruction/impaction are usually an acute onset of symptoms.
> You’re welcome and I just wish I could help more.


So maybe his kidney is enlarged. Also is caecal obstruction treatable ?


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## Popsicles (Jun 16, 2018)

An enlarged kidney does not mean there is a UTI and the kidneys look a similar size and shape on radiograph so I wouldn’t be expecting it to be enlarged. What did the vet say he/she felt that suggested a UTI?
It depends what the obstruction is, it is usually compacted food, which would need to be treated surgically I would imagine. If your Vets aren’t capable of treating rabbits they won’t be able to do this surgery.
Your vets seem so unsure I really don’t know what to suggest, because at the moment your poor bunny is suffering.


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## KutuKuti (Jun 16, 2018)

Popsicles said:


> An enlarged kidney does not mean there is a UTI and the kidneys look a similar size and shape on radiograph so I wouldn’t be expecting it to be enlarged. What did the vet say he/she felt that suggested a UTI?
> It depends what the obstruction is, it is usually compacted food, which would need to be treated surgically I would imagine. If your Vets aren’t capable of treating rabbits they won’t be able to do this surgery.
> Your vets seem so unsure I really don’t know what to suggest, because at the moment your poor bunny is suffering.


I have read that surgery in the cecum requires immense experience regarding bunnies which vets here lack. They have no knowledge about rabbits. Is there no other option other than surgery ? This is a picture of his poop. Some of the poops are oval.


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## Popsicles (Jun 16, 2018)

The poops look fine, which suggests it isn’t the caecum which is a problem. It’s impossible to know, without proper testing done, what the mass is.


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## KutuKuti (Jun 16, 2018)

His cecotrophes are not properly formed. Its liquid. Will metrodinazole help him ? Is it safe to give ? Thank you so much for helping me.


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## Popsicles (Jun 16, 2018)

Metronidazole helps with gut motility, it could potentially help with caecotropes? I’m not sure. To help with caecotrope formation definitely make sure he eats lots and lot about of hay and only has very few pellets and only veg as a treat. 
I would not like to tell you any medications are safe for sure without seeing the rabbit!


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## KutuKuti (Jun 17, 2018)

D


Popsicles said:


> Metronidazole helps with gut motility, it could potentially help with caecotropes? I’m not sure. To help with caecotrope formation definitely make sure he eats lots and lot about of hay and only has very few pellets and only veg as a treat.
> I would not like to tell you any medications are safe for sure without seeing the rabbit!


Do you think it could be worms that are resulting in the swelling of his cecum ? I did his stool test a few months back but worms were not found in it. I have attached the report in the later post. Is deworming him now going to help ? Also aren't deworming medicines very strong and risky to give ?


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## KutuKuti (Jun 17, 2018)




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## Popsicles (Jun 17, 2018)

If there were not worms then I would not expect it is worms causing the problem now. It shouldn’t cause a problem to givedeworling treatment anyway, I can’t see why that would be a problem. fenbendazole will kill roundworms, mebendazole for tapeworms and pinworms. 
There was protein in the urine. That isn’t good, does possibly suggest something wrong with the kidneys? But if it was a dipstick I don’t know how reliable this is. And this was a few months ago now. 
Have we had a blood test done?
How is he in himself? Eating? Drinking? Poops? Urine? Active/lethargic? What do you feed him.
I am really worried about this mass. If they won’t do a fine needle aspirate or biopsy, can they do an ultrasound? Check out this mass, and also have a look at the kidneys while they are there? 
I’m running out of ideas


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## KutuKuti (Jun 17, 2018)

He is given SPS third cut timothy hay, Oxbow organic pellets, Leafy greens and very rarely fruits such as apple or carrot as treats. He is not peeing much since yesterday. He ate and pooped but not much. He is pooping less. But he is urinating very less. Also today it appears that he is trying to urinate cannot. Do you think he is having a renal failure ? He does not drink much water so I feed him water.


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## Popsicles (Jun 17, 2018)

With renal failure they will drink and urinate more, not less. If he is straining to urinate it could be urolithiasis, or crystals causing a blockage. In the original X-ray do you know did they introduce a contrast medium into the bladder? If not, it is very white and looks like it has a lot of mineralisation.


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## KutuKuti (Jun 18, 2018)

Popsicles said:


> With renal failure they will drink and urinate more, not less. If he is straining to urinate it could be urolithiasis, or crystals causing a blockage. In the original X-ray do you know did they introduce a contrast medium into the bladder? If not, it is very white and looks like it has a lot of mineralisation.


Sorry for being so late to reply. I do not think that they introduced a contrast medium to into the bladder. He does passes a lot of calcium in his pee but now he us not being able to pee. What meds are given during blockage of the kidney ? For deworming a vet recommended me albendazole. Is it good for deworming ?


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## Popsicles (Jun 18, 2018)

In that case, it looks like bladder sludge, far too much calcification in there. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a blockage! It would be blockage of the bladder/urethra rather than the kidney.
If it is bladder sludge and it is not blocked too badly they should be able to pass a catheter to try and flush the bladder out. They should have done similar with dogs and cats so it is not a difficult procedure.
And yes albendazole should be fine. Anecdotally, some people say it can have adverse side effects in rabbits. I think I safer option is fenbendazole? Though I don’t know for sure.


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## KutuKuti (Jun 18, 2018)

Popsicles said:


> In that case, it looks like bladder sludge, far too much calcification in there. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a blockage! It would be blockage of the bladder/urethra rather than the kidney.
> If it is bladder sludge and it is not blocked too badly they should be able to pass a catheter to try and flush the bladder out. They should have done similar with dogs and cats so it is not a difficult procedure.
> And yes albendazole should be fine.


Can it also be UTI ? Will giving him Olfloxacin and Septran( Trimethoprim/sulfamethoxazole) help ?


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## Popsicles (Jun 18, 2018)

A UTI wouldn’t show up on an X-ray - it is possible there is a UTI at the same time as the sludge bladder, and bladder sludge is not always symptomatic. Without more urine testing it is not possible to know. I wouldn’t give antibiotics without due cause. 
This webpage might help (the section on sludge is most important, it does not look like stones are present):
https://rabbitwelfare.co.uk/rabbit-health/further-reading/urolithiasis/


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## KutuKuti (Jun 18, 2018)

Popsicles said:


> A UTI wouldn’t show up on an X-ray - it is possible there is a UTI at the same time as the sludge bladder, and bladder sludge is not always symptomatic. Without more urine testing it is not possible to know. I wouldn’t give antibiotics without due cause.
> This webpage might help (the section on sludge is most important, it does not look like stones are present):
> https://rabbitwelfare.co.uk/rabbit-health/further-reading/urolithiasis/


I will get his urine and stool test done. Thank you so much for helping me. I am syringe feeding him water since he does not drink much water. Do you think he is very serious ? He is not bring able to pee.


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## Popsicles (Jun 19, 2018)

If he is not able to pee this is a medical emergency because the bladder can get too full and burst. Get to a vet ASAP


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## KutuKuti (Jun 19, 2018)

Popsicles said:


> If he is not able to pee this is a medical emergency because the bladder can get too full and burst. Get to a vet ASAP


He has peed and there is as usual a lot of sludge in his pee. Is there any ways to reduce the sludge other than to flush the bladder out.


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## Popsicles (Jun 19, 2018)

Once the sludge is there there isn’t anyway to remove it other than peeing out or flushing out, but you can prevent more forming. Read the article I sent you before


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## Popsicles (Jun 19, 2018)

Under “longterm management”


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## squidpop (Jun 19, 2018)

About the megacolon...Its genetic and its the most common in spotted rabbits that have two spotted genes- which means they are mostly white with no spots on their back. So if your rabbit has that pattern he could have it.

I've had a megacolon bunny. The biggest symptom is the poos are twice as big as other rabbits and sometimes oval.

About water
If he's not drinking water and you syringe it- I would make sure he is getting the right amount of fluids a rabbit needs per day so he is well hydrated— because if there is an impaction or blockage lots of fluids will help it move through. A rabbit can't digest things right if it isn't hydrated. Also I would mix a week solution of electrolytes or pedialyte for infants.

One source says rabbit needs:
A *rabbit's* average daily *water* intake is 50-150 ml/*kg* of body weight, and a *2 kg (rabbit drinks* about as *much water* daily as a 10 *kg* dog.)

Another source says
Meaning, expect a 4 pound rabbit to drink one cup of water a day, or less.

So I would make sure your rabbit gets the right amount of water in him.


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## KutuKuti (Jun 19, 2018)

Popsicles said:


> Under “longterm management”


Thank you for posting the article here. I read it.


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## KutuKuti (Jun 19, 2018)

squidpop said:


> About the megacolon...Its genetic and its the most common in spotted rabbits that have two spotted genes- which means they are mostly white with no spots on their back. So if your rabbit has that pattern he could have it.
> 
> I've had a megacolon bunny. The biggest symptom is the poos are twice as big as other rabbits and sometimes oval.
> 
> ...


He does not drink water in his own so it is a problem. I have to syringe feed him which he hates. He also does not let me syringe feed him I have to take him in my lap and feed water with a dropper. I still try to give him about half cup a day. He is a REW full white with no black spots. Thank you so much for helping me.


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## KutuKuti (Jun 20, 2018)

When bunnies produce liquid cecotrophes what does that mean ? And he is also eating it that is licking off the liquid ceco. I have been prescribed metrodinazole for this. But its an antibiotic so I am afraid to give. If they have worms do they produce liquid ceco and metrodinazole is given for a bacterial infection of the cecum, in such cases do they produce firm poops ? I have also been said to give olfloxacin and Trimethoprim+ Sulfamethoxazole for his UTI. I will be sending his urine and stool for a test. But can they be given 2 antibiotics at a time ?


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## squidpop (Jun 20, 2018)

Is it safe to take all those Antibiotics together???? I don't know ... maybe someone else on here has done it before and will chime in. 

——————————

If your vet definitely thinks your rabbit has a urinary tract infection I would give him that UTI drug right away. Because Urinary infections are very very painful and I think the pain from that could be what is making his him not drink water, and stress from pain could be the cause gut issues too. 

You can look up antibiotics to see if they are safe here https://rabbit.org/health/antibiotics.html

I looked it up and Metronidazole and Trimethoprim+ Sulfamethoxazole all say low risk for diarrhea— so they sound safe and also commonly given to rabbits. 

It sounds like Ofloxacin is an eyedrop?
___________


Also, about he liquid cecotropes. 
Are sure he doesn't have diarrhea? If he has solid round poos and then liquid cecos that's not diarrhea– so if poos are solid I might hold off on the metronidazole and see how the UTI meds work for him first. But if he has mushy poo all the time I would give the metronidazole right away. 


*Metronidazole—*I think Your vet must think he has some bacteria or coccidiosis protozoal infection based on what's below. 

http://vetbook.org/wiki/rabbit/index.php?title=Metronidazole

"Metronidazole is a commonly used benzimidazole drug in rabbits, effective in treating anaerobic bacterial and protozoal infections.

It is most commonly used to treat anaerobic infections associated with dental infections and coccidiosis with good clinical results.

Metronidazole kills target organisms by inducing formation of reactive intemediates within these organisms, resulting in disruption of DNA. Standard oral daily dosing with metronidazole for 7 days disrupts DNA (genotoxicity). This genotoxicity appears to resolve within 7 days of discontinuing drug administration. Additionally, metronidaole does not appear to be cytotoxic to lymphocytes at standard oral concentrations.​
_________


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## KutuKuti (Jun 20, 2018)

squidpop said:


> Is it safe to take all those Antibiotics together???? I don't know ... maybe someone else on here has done it before and will chime in.
> 
> ——————————
> 
> ...


I am really scared to give him antibiotics. So I have not given him anything till now. I will be sending his urine and poop for test and then give the antibiotics. I wrote the name wrong its oflomac forte not ofloxacin. Only his cecos are liquid his other poops are firm. So I am wondering if I should give him metrodinazole. Can worms cause liquid cecos ?


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## Popsicles (Jun 20, 2018)

I agree with squid pop and that’s about the extent of my knowledge on it too - painkillers would be a really good idea too. How quickly can you get the results for the faecal and urinary tests?


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## squidpop (Jun 20, 2018)

I don't think liquid cecotropes are the main symptom of worms. Rabbits don't often get the bad kinds of worms like tape worms. They get pin worms but they are small and you see them in the poos. I think liquid cecos are more a symptom of bacteria imbalance in the gut. 

Do you have probiotics?- because that is a way of balancing out bacteria in gut without using antibiotics. I use Bene-bac probiotics sometimes. 

I read that he wasn't peeing and you also said he wasn't drinking— so making sure you are giving him his cup of water a day is important. If rabbits dehydrate they go down hill very quickly. They can't digest anything if they aren't hydrated. And if he had sludgey pee drinking water would help flush it out. 

I wouldn't be too afraid of giving those particular antibiotics because it does say they are safe for rabbits— and they are common antibiotics. 

I have given my rabbits antibiotics many times over the years— and none of my rabbits have died or gotten diarrhea from the antibiotics.


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## KutuKuti (Jun 20, 2018)

Popsicles said:


> I agree with squid pop and that’s about the extent of my knowledge on it too - painkillers would be a really good idea too. How quickly can you get the results for the faecal and urinary tests?


I will get the routine report fast but the culture report takes 2 to 3 days.


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## KutuKuti (Jun 20, 2018)

squidpop said:


> I don't think liquid cecotropes are the main symptom of worms. Rabbits don't often get the bad kinds of worms like tape worms. They get pin worms but they are small and you see them in the poos. I think liquid cecos are more a symptom of bacteria imbalance in the gut.
> 
> Do you have probiotics?- because that is a way of balancing out bacteria in gut without using antibiotics. I use Bene-bac probiotics sometimes.
> 
> ...


Yes, I am giving him water. I got Bene-Bac for him but its not available here. The one that they sold was quite old and expired in a month's time so I can't use it. But an expert suggested enterogermina as probiotic. Its available here and I have it but I have never given it to him.


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## squidpop (Jun 20, 2018)

Metronidazole isn't used for worms— it says bacteria and protozoal infections. 

Here is a link to Medirabbit on worms. 

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/GI_diseases/Parasitic_diseases/Nem_gen/Nematodes.htm

*Here are some symptoms of worms... 
*
The presence of thick brown threads of mucus in the droppings can be an indication for the presence of intestinal worms. When reaching a peak number, they cause pain and the mass of live and dead adult worms may lead tocecal impaction, accompanied by stasis, severe pain and gas formation. This is independent from the type of worm (pinworm or tapeworm) in rabbits.


There are other medications listed for worms here... 
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/GI_diseases/Parasitic_diseases/Pass/Pass_en.htm


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## KutuKuti (Jun 20, 2018)

squidpop said:


> Metronidazole isn't used for worms— it says bacteria and protozoal infections.
> 
> Here is a link to Medirabbit on worms.
> 
> ...


Yeah I know this. I read these sites they are very helpful. I was given metrodinazole not for worms but liquid ceco. For worms Kutu has been given Zentel( albendazole). On seeing the xray an expert said it could be that the mass is his cecum which has swollen because of worms. Hence the deworming.


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## KutuKuti (Jun 21, 2018)

His test reports are going to be late. He is pooping and eating but not peeing much. Should I then give him olfloxacin and Septran (Sulphamethoxazole -20 mg+ Trimethoprim-40mg) ?


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## Popsicles (Jun 21, 2018)

Give the drugs the vet has given you, it can only help


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## KutuKuti (Jun 21, 2018)

Popsicles said:


> Give the drugs the vet has given you, it can only help


Thank you so much. I trust the expert who has given me the meds a lot but Kutu's tummy is very sensitive hence I am scared to give him medicines. He ate little diarrhea the last time I gave him Septran. Can you tell me if these two products are the same ?View attachment 37618
View attachment 37618


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## Popsicles (Jun 21, 2018)

The links aren’t working, can you tell if the active ingredient is the same?


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## KutuKuti (Jun 21, 2018)




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## Popsicles (Jun 21, 2018)

I am not familiar with both products, give them a google to find out what the active ingredients are.


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## KutuKuti (Jun 22, 2018)

This is the routine report of Kutu's stool test the culture will arrive later. What does it mean when it says that pus cell and vegetative cells are present.


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## KutuKuti (Jun 22, 2018)

squidpop said:


> I don't think liquid cecotropes are the main symptom of worms. Rabbits don't often get the bad kinds of worms like tape worms. They get pin worms but they are small and you see them in the poos. I think liquid cecos are more a symptom of bacteria imbalance in the gut.
> 
> Do you have probiotics?- because that is a way of balancing out bacteria in gut without using antibiotics. I use Bene-bac probiotics sometimes.
> 
> ...


You are taking about this Bene- Bac isn't ?


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## Popsicles (Jun 22, 2018)

The odour described as offensive - this isn’t normal, rabbit faeces shouldn’t smell of much.
Pus cells are dead leukocytes which normally indicates bacterial infection. 
Vegetative cells are bacterial cells. 
I don’t know whether these findings might be normal in a rabbit, as they obviously have bacteria in their caecum? Otherwise, some sort of infection. I don’t know, sorry. What does your vet think?


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## KutuKuti (Jun 23, 2018)

Popsicles said:


> The odour described as offensive - this isn’t normal, rabbit faeces shouldn’t smell of much.
> Pus cells are dead leukocytes which normally indicates bacterial infection.
> Vegetative cells are bacterial cells.
> I don’t know whether these findings might be normal in a rabbit, as they obviously have bacteria in their caecum? Otherwise, some sort of infection. I don’t know, sorry. What does your vet think?


This is his routine urine report. Vets here have no knowledge about rabbits and prescribe wrong meds. There is an expert who helps I will ask him.Do you think the findings are not normal ?


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## BunnyWarrior (Jun 23, 2018)

Hi! I'm not sure if it will help, but when my bunny pooped less he was given metoclopramide, (pill 5mg 3x0,25pc per day) and 2-5 ml paraffine (oral by syringe) to help his gastric/bowel motility. But I'm very concerned about the fluid in his stomach. In worst case I even give a try to have a human phisiologyst to make the paracentesis. I feel and pull for you, I also find it hard to find a bunny specialist when my precious one was ill. (I'm from Hungary).


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## KutuKuti (Jun 23, 2018)

BunnyWarrior said:


> Hi! I'm not sure if it will help, but when my bunny pooped less he was given metoclopramide, (pill 5mg 3x0,25pc per day) and 2-5 ml paraffine (oral by syringe) to help his gastric/bowel motility. But I'm very concerned about the fluid in his stomach. In worst case I even give a try to have a human phisiologyst to make the paracentesis. I feel and pull for you, I also find it hard to find a bunny specialist when my precious one was ill. (I'm from Hungary).


He is pooping but his cecos are liquid. I was also wondering if a doctor could look into his report. All the vets here are so ignorant about rabbits. How is your bunny doing now ? I am so happy you found someone to treat your little one.


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## Popsicles (Jun 23, 2018)

I wouldnt like to comment on the lab results, it is potentially abnormal to have that blood and pus but it is fairly low levels so not sure if pathological? I can’t find any reference text to compare to.
Maybe there is a vet in the UK or someone else you can send the reports to? They might have a look over email or speak to you on the phone?


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## KutuKuti (Jun 27, 2018)

I am sorry that I have not been able to reply to your comment. Kutu's culture report came back negative. But he is unable to pee. I think it is because of the sludge. The pellet that I give him has calcium carbonate as an ingredient. Is that okay ? Can you please tell me if giving him vitamin C tablets will help ?


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## Popsicles (Jun 27, 2018)

If he is unable to pee due to a blockage it is an emergency and you need to get to a vet right away. If not the bladder can eventually rupture. It will also be very painful so he will need pain medication! Vitamin c tablets won’t help at this point, if there is a blockage it will need proper flushing.


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## Popsicles (Jun 27, 2018)

Has he not peed at all? And have you been giving the antibiotics?


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## KutuKuti (Jun 27, 2018)

Popsicles said:


> Has he not peed at all? And have you been giving the antibiotics?


He is peeing but very little. I was giving Septran but when the culture report came back negative I stopped it. Do you think I should continue with the septran ?


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## Popsicles (Jun 27, 2018)

How long did you give for? When on antibiotics you should never stop the course early as this can increase resistance in the bacterial population. Since you have stopped now though, and the culture is negative I don’t know how useful antibiotics would be, though cultures aren’t always definitive. I would check with your vet to be sure. 
I really really suspect that sludge is the issue here as you can see it so clearly on the radiograph, it must be so painful for the little guy


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## KutuKuti (Jun 27, 2018)

Popsicles said:


> How long did you give for? When on antibiotics you should never stop the course early as this can increase resistance in the bacterial population. Since you have stopped now though, and the culture is negative I don’t know how useful antibiotics would be, though cultures aren’t always definitive. I would check with your vet to be sure.
> I really really suspect that sludge is the issue here as you can see it so clearly on the radiograph, it must be so painful for the little guy


Yes. It must be so painful. Can I give him electrolyte water ? Although he is not drinking and when I am giving him through dropper he is throwing the water with his tongue. Also can I give him dried
cranberries ?


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## Popsicles (Jun 27, 2018)

How much has he been drinking? How long has he been like this? It is possible he is peeing less because he is not drinking enough. Rabbits don’t often drink much water if they get lots of wet veggies that is usually enough fluid, but dry diets like hay and pellets mean they need to drink water. How much are you managing to get into him? I can’t inagine the electrolytes would be a problem but I wouldn’t know for sure, I’ve never seen that brand before.
What would be the benefit of cranberries? He can eat them but they are very sugary so not too much.


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## Popsicles (Jun 27, 2018)

If you can’t get any water in him try wetting his veggies before feeding and giving juicy veggies with lots of moisture in.


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## KutuKuti (Jun 28, 2018)

Popsicles said:


> If you can’t get any water in him try wetting his veggies before feeding and giving juicy veggies with lots of moisture in.


I am only being able to give him a few drops of water. He does not drink water on his own. I am giving him wet veggies to make up for the less water intake. I was thinking of cranberries since they have vitamin C in them which is supposed to help with sludge. Are vitamin C tablets good for resolving sludge ?When I was giving him septran he was peeing a little more. Is septran a diureti
c ? This is the ingredients of the Oxbow Organic do you think it is bad for him ?


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## Popsicles (Jun 28, 2018)

It might be useful to speak to your vet to see if they can teach you how to give fluids subcutaneously if you suspect he is dehydrated.
You cannot resolve sludge without flushing, like I said. You can prevent it forming by reducing calcium intake and things like vitamin c, but once it is there it won’t dissolve on its own.
I am not very knowledgable on nutrition, you could post that image into the nutrition and behaviour forum as a new topic and see if anyone can help you? Sorry, I wouldn’t want to give you a bad guess when lots on here are better with nutrition than I am.
Oh and Septran shouldn’t have a diuretic effect, it may be because he was drinking more water (because the drug was making him feel better?) or just be that he did have a uti and the antibiotic helped a swelling go down than meant e could pee more. It’s hard for me to say.


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## KutuKuti (Jun 28, 2018)

Popsicles said:


> It might be useful to speak to your vet to see if they can teach you how to give fluids subcutaneously if you suspect he is dehydrated.
> You cannot resolve sludge without flushing, like I said. You can prevent it forming by reducing calcium intake and things like vitamin c, but once it is there it won’t dissolve on its own.
> I am not very knowledgable on nutrition, you could post that image into the nutrition and behaviour forum as a new topic and see if anyone can help you? Sorry, I wouldn’t want to give you a bad guess when lots on here are better with nutrition than I am.
> Oh and Septran shouldn’t have a diuretic effect, it may be because he was drinking more water (because the drug was making him feel better?) or just be that he did have a uti and the antibiotic helped a swelling go down than meant e could pee more. It’s hard for me to say.


Okay. I will do so. Someone said me that septran was a diuretic so it was forcing his kidneys to create more urine. Can you tell me how many days is the course of septran ? And what should be the dosage for 2.8kg bunny ? Suppose the report is right and he does not have UTI then will the septran harm him ? I already stopped the septran once if I give him now will it be bad ?


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## Popsicles (Jun 28, 2018)

Maybe it is, that’s not something ive heard but it could be a side effect.
It depends what you are treating, normally a minimum of 3-5 days, i don’t know dosage without the compendium in front of me but your vet should have told you a dosage? 
It wont harm him other than potential side effects, which hopefully should be mild, though of course all medications come with risk.
How long did you give it for before stopping?


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## KutuKuti (Jun 28, 2018)

Popsicles said:


> Maybe it is, that’s not something ive heard but it could be a side effect.
> It depends what you are treating, normally a minimum of 3-5 days, i don’t know dosage without the compendium in front of me but your vet should have told you a dosage?
> It wont harm him other than potential side effects, which hopefully should be mild, though of course all medications come with risk.
> How long did you give it for before stopping?


I gave him 3 times only. My other bunny, Kuti had died due to wrong dosage of antibiotics so I give very less antibiotics. I gave him only0.04ml


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## Popsicles (Jun 29, 2018)

Well Sentra isn’t isually used for UTIs, ask your vet what he aims to treat with the antibiotic. It is better to give no antibiotic at all than give a low dose - either commit or don’t. Giving too low and dose and also stopping early Just increases the amount of resistant bacteria and will make the infection worse. Speak to your vet and see what their plan was and next time either take the antibiotics or don’t. 
You still need to take him about the sludge, which is NOT something you can fix at home.
You also need to find out what the mass in the abdomen is, did you give the worm treatment someone suggested?
And have you given any pain medication yet? This would be a big priority for me right now. This rabbit is not having a good time. You can’t leave him like this.


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## doodlebugger (Jun 29, 2018)

Could this be coccidia? I was just wondering if that could be what the mass is - a swollen liver or something like that? Here's a link to the symptoms and other info: https://rabbit.org/intermittent-soft-cecotropes-in-rabbits/
I would definitely try to find someone in your area that has experience with rabbits. If you do a google search for your city, country, and the words veterinarian rabbit, does it not give you anyone there who might be able to help you more? I tried this with the city listed on one of the reports and it listed a few with one who said he had over 18 years as vet and could treat rabbits. It's so hard to take what you are seeing and the reports and help you diagnose or make choices as to what to do next. 

Our rabbit had bladder sludge and a UTI. We had to finish the course of antibiotics, but we also had to get him some sub q fluids which seemed to help. Our vet also said they needed to move more, to help prevent the sludge in the future. Our rabbit was peeing outside of his litter box six months later, which is what he did when he had a UTI the first time, so we gave him a small dose of metoclopromide and some Metacam (with our vet's approval), and he improved without needing antibiotics. But I wouldn't give metoclopromide to a rabbit who is having liquid cecotropes.....because it could make it worse. Are all his poops liquid or only the cecotropes?

I don't know I would give any cranberries, as they might make things worse. Are you giving any greens? Like a leafy romaine lettuce? I would give those if he will eat them. That will provide some water for him. 

Pain meds could help him feel good enough to drink and urinate more. I'm so sorry you are going through this.


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## KutuKuti (Jun 29, 2018)

Popsicles said:


> Well Sentra isn’t isually used for UTIs, ask your vet what he aims to treat with the antibiotic. It is better to give no antibiotic at all than give a low dose - either commit or don’t. Giving too low and dose and also stopping early Just increases the amount of resistant bacteria and will make the infection worse. Speak to your vet and see what their plan was and next time either take the antibiotics or don’t.
> You still need to take him about the sludge, which is NOT something you can fix at home.
> You also need to find out what the mass in the abdomen is, did you give the worm treatment someone suggested?
> And have you given any pain medication yet? This would be a big priority for me right now. This rabbit is not having a good time. You can’t leave him like this.


The mass might be his cecum. I have not started the deworming. Yes melonex is a pain med.


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## KutuKuti (Jun 29, 2018)

doodlebugger said:


> Could this be coccidia? I was just wondering if that could be what the mass is - a swollen liver or something like that? Here's a link to the symptoms and other info: https://rabbit.org/intermittent-soft-cecotropes-in-rabbits/
> I would definitely try to find someone in your area that has experience with rabbits. If you do a google search for your city, country, and the words veterinarian rabbit, does it not give you anyone there who might be able to help you more? I tried this with the city listed on one of the reports and it listed a few with one who said he had over 18 years as vet and could treat rabbits. It's so hard to take what you are seeing and the reports and help you diagnose or make choices as to what to do next.
> 
> Our rabbit had bladder sludge and a UTI. We had to finish the course of antibiotics, but we also had to get him some sub q fluids which seemed to help. Our vet also said they needed to move more, to help prevent the sludge in the future. Our rabbit was peeing outside of his litter box six months later, which is what he did when he had a UTI the first time, so we gave him a small dose of metoclopromide and some Metacam (with our vet's approval), and he improved without needing antibiotics. But I wouldn't give metoclopromide to a rabbit who is having liquid cecotropes.....because it could make it worse. Are all his poops liquid or only the cecotropes?
> ...


Thank you so much for your help. There are no rabbit savvy vets here. The vets say they can treat rabbits but give wrong medications. Kutu is only having liquid cecos. Yes I give him greens to make up for his water intake. I give him water spinach, celery leaves, cilantro and others. Cranberries have vitamin C so I was asked to give them. Are the dried but little sweetened cranberries harmful for them ? His urinalysis culture came negative for UTI but his routine report showed growth in cells.


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## doodlebugger (Jun 29, 2018)

KutuKuti said:


> The mass might be his cecum. I have not started the deworming. Yes melonex is a pain med.


Melonex is another brand for Metacam/Meloxicam from what I have read. So, that is good. That is what we give our rabbits for pain.


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## KutuKuti (Jun 29, 2018)

doodlebugger said:


> Melonex is another brand for Metacam/Meloxicam from what I have read. So, that is good. That is what we give our rabbits for pain.


I am very scared to give him meds. I read somewhere that melonex is not good to be given during kidney problems and since Kutu is having sludge is melonex okay to give. Also I have been prescribed to give him vitamin C tablets. Is it good ? This vitamin C tablet has rose hip, citrus bioflavonoids and Vitamin C.


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## doodlebugger (Jun 29, 2018)

KutuKuti said:


> Thank you so much for your help. There are no rabbit savvy vets here. The vets say they can treat rabbits but give wrong medications. Kutu is only having liquid cecos. Yes I give him greens to make up for his water intake. I give him water spinach, celery leaves, cilantro and others. Cranberries have vitamin C so I was asked to give them. Are the dried but little sweetened cranberries harmful for them ? His urinalysis culture came negative for UTI but his routine report showed growth in cells.


Dried cranberries are high in sugar. So you have to be careful how many you give them.....they can't have a lot of sugar. Here's a list of foods that are good for them, and the ones you should limit: https://rabbit.org/suggested-vegetables-and-fruits-for-a-rabbit-diet/

Our rabbit had some issues with cilantro - it hurt his tummy. Some rabbits don't tolerate every thing that is on the approved list. What kind of antibiotics are you giving to him - is that the Sentra? Oh wait, should that read Septra? If it's Septra, that is on an article by a house rabbit society as being safe for treating rabbits. It is sulfamethoxazole trimethoprim but I don't know anything about the dosage. Here's that article: http://www.allearssac.org/pdf/med.pdf
However, we tried two of our rabbits on this medication and it made them sick, they didn't want to eat or drink, etc. 

But this could be a number of things - have you looked at enteritis? Here's an article about that and the treatment they recommend: http://www.bunnybunch.org/rabbitcare.html#anti
The problem with metoclopromide is that if there is a blockage, the meds could kill them. Do you believe there is a blockage?


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## KutuKuti (Jun 29, 2018)

doodlebugger said:


> Dried cranberries are high in sugar. So you have to be careful how many you give them.....they can't have a lot of sugar. Here's a list of foods that are good for them, and the ones you should limit: https://rabbit.org/suggested-vegetables-and-fruits-for-a-rabbit-diet/
> 
> Our rabbit had some issues with cilantro - it hurt his tummy. Some rabbits don't tolerate every thing that is on the approved list. What kind of antibiotics are you giving to him - is that the Sentra? Oh wait, should that read Septra? If it's Septra, that is on an article by a house rabbit society as being safe for treating rabbits. It is sulfamethoxazole trimethoprim but I don't know anything about the dosage. Here's that article: http://www.allearssac.org/pdf/med.pdf
> However, we tried two of our rabbits on this medication and it made them sick, they didn't want to eat or drink, etc.
> ...


I have been giving him cilantro for quite sometime. I give 2 cranberries a day. Yes its septran but I am no longer giving him that. The first time that I gave him septran a few months back he has soft poops I looked up enteritis then. Are you talking about blockage in the urinary tract or tummy ?


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## Popsicles (Jun 29, 2018)

KutuKuti said:


> I am very scared to give him meds. I read somewhere that melonex is not good to be given during kidney problems and since Kutu is having sludge is melonex okay to give. Also I have been prescribed to give him vitamin C tablets. Is it good ? This vitamin C tablet has rose hip, citrus bioflavonoids and Vitamin C.


Sludge is in the bladder, not the kidneys - the only way to know about kidney function is a blood test.
It is impossible for any of us to diagnose for you, and as we can’t see be rabbit it would be irresponsible to recommend particular drugs and dose rates.
It could be so many things, and until you give the medication or get more tests done you will nevertheless know and he will never get better!


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## KutuKuti (Jun 29, 2018)

Popsicles said:


> Sludge is in the bladder, not the kidneys - the only way to know about kidney function is a blood test.
> It is impossible for any of us to diagnose for you, and as we can’t see be rabbit it would be irresponsible to recommend particular drugs and dose rates.
> It could be so many things, and until you give the medication or get more tests done you will nevertheless know and he will never get better!


No one here is experienced in collecting blood from rabbits so I am unable to do the blood test. I will ask vets if anyone can flush his bladder. Thank you so much for helping me.


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## Popsicles (Jun 30, 2018)

Really good luck and definitely keep us updated! I’m happy to answer any questions you have, but I wouldn’t want to try and treat a rabbit over the internet and jeopardise it’s health and welfare. I hope he is okay <3


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## BunnyWarrior (Jul 5, 2018)

KutuKuti said:


> He is pooping but his cecos are liquid. I was also wondering if a doctor could look into his report. All the vets here are so ignorant about rabbits. How is your bunny doing now ? I am so happy you found someone to treat your little one.


My precious little friend passed away finally, but it was a recurrent problem with him. But first time when he had the first gastric stasis and ileus, vets were able to bring him back with these drugs and with liquid supplement by infusion. I honestly hope your bunny will make it and become healthy again.


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## KutuKuti (Jul 5, 2018)

BunnyWarrior said:


> My precious little friend passed away finally, but it was a recurrent problem with him. But first time when he had the first gastric stasis and ileus, vets were able to bring him back with these drugs and with liquid supplement by infusion. I honestly hope your bunny will make it and become healthy again.


I am so sorry to hear about your loss. He is an angel now looking over you. I really wish I had vets here who were rabbit savvy. There is nobody here who can properly diagnose rabbits.


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## Popsicles (Jul 5, 2018)

I’m so sorry to hear that @BunnyWarrior 
And I know @KutuKuti I feel for you, how is he doing?


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## KutuKuti (Jul 5, 2018)

Popsicles said:


> I’m so sorry to hear that @BunnyWarrior
> And I know @KutuKuti I feel for you, how is he doing?


He is peeing but when I touch his tummy I can feel some small things. Maybe he has stones. I will again do a Xray.


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