# Need some advice from experienced breeders



## whaleyk98 (Oct 4, 2008)

Hello everyone.

My EL doe just had a litter of 2 babies( kinda expected more but whatever) very unexpectedly as I wasnt expecting them for another two weeks!( I guess I did something wrong)Anywho, she is a first time mom as didnt even make a nest...no fur nothing until AFTER the babes were born. I checked the babies over and it seems as though one has a deep laceration on its upper leg from mom. What do i do about it, just let it go? Any other advice you could give? Its after midnight and Im pretty sure she is done as she is eating and drinking now.


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## clevername (Oct 4, 2008)

wow 2 weeks early!? That's like half the pregnancy, honestly, I'm not sure if there is anything to do at this stage. Did you get in there to see if they are even alive?


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## whaleyk98 (Oct 4, 2008)

Oh they are alive and well. I must have not calculated something right or a prior attempt to breed must have been successful with me totally unaware. I checked on them again this morning and they are just great. Im not sure if they have been fed yet or not but she had made them an awsome nest during the night. I have a solid black and either a broken black or broken blue...leaning towards black. I am just unsure what to do about the laceration on the one's leg...do I just leave it alone?


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## clevername (Oct 4, 2008)

Well its great she's figured out what to do now. Check them every so often, you'll know she's fed them when they're tummies look like ping pong balls (sometimes you'll see a faint outline of white where the milk shows through the skin)

Is the laceration gaping or falling away from the body? A dab of super glue works well as a suture. But unless its extreme I wouldn't bother, these thing tend to heal very well if the kit is healthy and growing normally.


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## whaleyk98 (Oct 4, 2008)

Its kind of like the skin was peeled away...like a large scratch. I think she did it when she was taking the sac off. Maybe a bite mark? Ill clean it and try a dab of superglue to keep it shut, thanks.


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## aurora369 (Oct 4, 2008)

You can clean the wound with a bit of betadine to prevent any infections.

--Dawn


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## whaleyk98 (Oct 4, 2008)

Ok Dawn, Thanks.


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## Elf Mommy (Oct 4, 2008)

Congratulations on the babies! Pictures? 

Minda


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## whaleyk98 (Oct 4, 2008)

Thanks. I still have to get pics of them. Im trying not to bother mama too much right now. As for the wound, I just checked on him/her about an hour ago and it has actually healed already...I am really amazed. I will keep everyone posted and I will get pics in about a week or so. Keep your fingers crossed that everything goes ok. She still has yet to feed them. :waiting:


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## whaleyk98 (Oct 5, 2008)

How long can these babies go without their first time feeding? She gave birth about 11pm last night so its been 24 hours. What should I do. Am I just being too paranoid? She doesnt seem too interested in them....


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## aurora369 (Oct 5, 2008)

You probably won't see mom feed the babies. They only feed the babies two to three times a day, and sometimes only once. 

Rabbits ignore there babies to protect them. In the wild, the mother only goes to the nest for feeding to keep her scent off the nest. Babies don't have enough of a scent to attract predators, but the mom does. She will stay close by, but she will completely ignore them so that predators don't find the nest.

As long as the babies have nice round bellies, then mom is feeding them. I put some pictures in another thread of some well fed babies.
http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=40071&forum_id=8

--Dawn


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## whaleyk98 (Oct 5, 2008)

I have beencheckingtheir bellies...they are not round at all and there is no hint of white. They are wrinkled and jumpy...they are warm and have a nice nest so should I just leave it at that for a day or so? Thanks for your input...Im a nervous grandma.:?:nerves1


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## aurora369 (Oct 5, 2008)

If you feel that the babies have not been fed within about 24 hours of birth, I would try to get them fed.

My advice is to "assist" mom in feeding. Get some good treats to distract her with, and set her in the nest box over the babies then keep giving her treats to keep her distracted. The babies should feed from underneath her.

Keep putting her on the nest like that twice a day until she catches on and starts feeding on her own.

If mom doesn't clean the babies bottoms during feeding, you may need to. Mom's normally stimulate urination and bowel movements by licking them during feedings. You can use a warm, damp wash cloth or cotton ball to help stimulate them.

Are you able to post some pictures of the babies? Then we can see if they look fed or not.

--Dawn


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## whaleyk98 (Oct 5, 2008)

Im going to leave her to it tonight and check them in the morning. I will try and get a couple of pics up after if they still look the same. Thanks dawn.

~Kate

.


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## BlueGiants (Oct 5, 2008)

First time moms sometimes need a little prompting. Aurora369 gave good advice. It's not unusual for the milk to take a day to come in. But the doe may need encouragement to nurse them. After 24 hours, they risk dehydration.


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## naturestee (Oct 5, 2008)

How are they doing? Did the babies get fed now?

You can also hold the mom in your lap and place the babies under her belly to feed. That's how I gave extra feedings to a runt in my foster litter.


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## whaleyk98 (Oct 5, 2008)

Still no change and they are very listless...I really have no hope for them. I literally put momma on her back and gave them each a nipple but they acted as though there wasn't anything in there....they would suck and suck and suck but then move away frusterated...I kept them at it for as long as she would sit still...about 5 minutes or so. I really don't know what to do. Is it possible that she has no milk and that's what their problem is? She goes into the nest box and sits there...and I think, "ok, she's feeding them now...but shes not. I think she's a horrible first time mom.  Is this typical behavior for first time moms????


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## BlueGiants (Oct 5, 2008)

The sucking of the babies can encourage her to "drop" her milk. I'd keep putting her on top of them several times during the day. Although it works for most, some does won't give milk on their backs... keep putting them under her and letting them have access to the nipples. If she doesn't start producing milk soon, it doesn't look good for the babies. Anyone have a lactating doe near you, that would be willing to foster the pair?


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## whaleyk98 (Oct 5, 2008)

No, I had to travel 3 hours to get my lops. No one is closer....actually Im sure it doesnt have to be a lop mom...right. There is a rabbit breeder of minirexs just 15 minutes away....I should give them a call and see what they have.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Oct 5, 2008)

*whaleyk98 wrote: *


> Its kind of like the skin was peeled away...like a large scratch. I think she did it when she was taking the sac off. Maybe a bite mark? Ill clean it and try a dab of superglue to keep it shut, thanks.



Superglue!?! I really hope you were joking when you mentioned that! Definitley *don't* use superglue to hold it shut! If you just clean it, it should be fine.  

Emily


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## whaleyk98 (Oct 5, 2008)

Clevername mentioned that superglue would hold it shut so I said ok.....I didnt need to anywaybecause it did heal overnight on its own. :thumbup


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Oct 5, 2008)

*whaleyk98 wrote: *


> Clevername mentioned that superglue would hold it shut so I said ok.....I didnt need to anywaybecause it did heal overnight on its own. :thumbup



Ahh, ok. My bad, I didn't see that. Sorry. hehe.

emily


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## whaleyk98 (Oct 5, 2008)

Thats all right...not a big deal....:biggrin2:


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## polly (Oct 5, 2008)

How are you doing ? any luck yet? if your doe is used to something like carrot then i usually give my doe a peice of veg and put the babies under her if she doesnt like it i gently stroke her head but keep her in oen place so she relaxes a bit and the babies have the chance underneath her to get some milk. sometimes it works better that way cause gravity seems to help the milk come down


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## whaleyk98 (Oct 5, 2008)

I have been putting them under her every hour or so now....she seems to hate it...cant understand why. I just pet her head and keep her still while they find their way... I can hear them suckling but I know there is nothing there..Im hoping this will get her milk to drop...Is it normal that she's sleeping in the nestbox???


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## polly (Oct 5, 2008)

I have had some does do it when they have a singleton. or they are being protetive of their nests. Most of the time they stay away from their babies. 

have you had a good feel of her nipples? are they like a lump round the teat (can't think of a better word sorry) they should feel swollen if there is milk. Sometimes it can take a while for the milk to come in but I would have an alternative just in case. It could be she is juts a bit stressed with it being her first litter. Make sure she is eating well. I usually offer dried grass after them giving birth as they use the hay for their nests. and veg they will usually eat all that first before pellets and teh more she is eating the better the chance of milk is.


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## whaleyk98 (Oct 5, 2008)

Yeah, shes eating and drinking lots....felt the teats but Im not a pro yet so Im not sure about what Im feeling....I tried to squeeze a little and see what happens and she did have some sort of clearish liquid. She wont really let me get close to her belly...she freaks out. On a funny note...I did wipe the babies down because I dont think shes doing it and the both squirted pee all over me....almost hit my mouth actually because I wasnt expecting it to shoot out that far. Im glad he/she was relieved though. :headsmack


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## polly (Oct 5, 2008)

LOL sounds like a couple of bucks there then bucks wee can go for miles nearly been hit in the eye a few times doe's dribble so I have heard (does seem to work with ours though!) i do know sometimes the teats can be a little bit blocked so they need to turbo suck ( as my husband says) to clear the teats for the milk to flow freely 

glad she is eating and drinking so well though thats a good sign its usually when the doe is to tired that she doesnt take care of the litter. keep trying :hug:


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## whaleyk98 (Oct 5, 2008)

Ya know...I just realized that I am talking to someone from Scotland. That is awsome!I have always wanted to move there...or Ireland. One of these days I keep saying.:biggrin2:Thanks for your support. Everyone!:wave:


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## polly (Oct 5, 2008)

lol the joys of the internet!! bit cold here at the moment if ya ever move do it in the summer


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## clevername (Oct 5, 2008)

*BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote: *


> *whaleyk98 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Its kind of like the skin was peeled away...like a large scratch. I think she did it when she was taking the sac off. Maybe a bite mark? Ill clean it and try a dab of superglue to keep it shut, thanks.
> ...



In gaping serious wounds that probably won't close correctly on their own, a _dab_ of super glue works well as a suture. I've heard this suggested on both my rabbit vet and breeder mailing lists. My personal vet has also used it to close wounds for very small mammals including one of my own animals.


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## whaleyk98 (Oct 6, 2008)

Hey guys...how doI post a pic on here? I took pics of the babie's bellies and I want to show everyone...theyre from a camera phone so they are not great but you can see it. ....wait...let me try something....did that work???


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## whaleyk98 (Oct 6, 2008)

I had checked on them this morning and momma had fixed the nest and pulled more fur. They were all covered up under it. I take the babied out and set them on the couch and they run around ( well...squirm-run,lol) like crazy. Im still unsure though...I think its because I dont actually see the milk in their tummies....they are not really round either......Ill post more pics in a minute or two....


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## whaleyk98 (Oct 6, 2008)

It looks like a butterfly across his/her face:hearts...Ineed to get a better camera,lol. I think he/she is broken blue. Looks really dark in the pic but its really not.


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## polly (Oct 6, 2008)

You need to use a site like photobucket upload your pictures to that then use the image link there to post them on here. 

www.photobucket.com


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## Elf Mommy (Oct 6, 2008)

I'm chatting with Whaley and she emailed me one of the photos. Here it is. Everyone say awwwwwwwwwwwwwww! with me! hehe




look at the wittle nose!

Minda


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## whaleyk98 (Oct 7, 2008)

I just wanted to update everyone on the babies. They are still alive and Im assuming that momma is feeding them even though I can't tell that she is. She pulls more fur and fixes the nest every night when everyone is in bed and today she actually got defensive about me taking the nestbox out to check them. I guess thats a good sign. I suppose Im just going to have a lets wait and see approach....she had them on the third...wouldnt something have happened by now if they werent being fed? Maybe Im just being a little too optimistic? But like I said...everything is looking alright so far. Keep your fingers crossed!:biggrin2:


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## BlueGiants (Oct 7, 2008)

If you are really worried, you can hold her down and take the nestbox out to check. Yes, she might object, but she isn't going to abandon her babies because of your touching them. She'll just "clean them up" and fix the nest again...

I would definately check them at least once every other day. You need to know if any pass away or if there are any problems.


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## whaleyk98 (Oct 8, 2008)

Dont worry...I do check them everyday. Yesterday was just the first day that she actually defended the nest. I thought that was an improvement because before she just didnt care. I take them out and check them over and hold them everyday. I checked this morning and everything is still ok. So far so good everyone.:biggrin2::highfive:


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## BlueGiants (Oct 8, 2008)

That's great news! Good luck with the babies!


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## whaleyk98 (Oct 9, 2008)

Hi again,

I was just wondering if it's normal for mom to keep pulling fur and making nests a week postpartum? 



~Kate


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## Star and Stone Rabbitry (Oct 10, 2008)

Some of my does tend to do that... she'll give birth with only a tad bit of fur lining around them, and then throughout a week or two, she'll keep on pulling more fur out. One of my does that do this nearly pulls ALL her fur off in the summer, lol. It's ridiculous, but yeah. All does take care of litters a little differently.


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## whaleyk98 (Oct 10, 2008)

Ok thanks. I was just a bit curious about that.onder:


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## RAL Rabbitry (Oct 10, 2008)

I know it sounds odd but I wonder if she is still pregnant. You bred her again two weeks after you bred her the first time. I would palpate the doe and see if she is carrying a second littler. That would explain the odd behavior of building nests over and over again.

Roger


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## whaleyk98 (Oct 10, 2008)

You know, I was actually thinking if that was possible. I did rebreed her because I didnt know she was already pregnant....and she readily took to the buck. She would be due on this Tues and THAT was the litter I was expecting...not this one she has now. I did feel her belly though and I don't think there are any other babies in there.....of course..I have been wrong before. I thought they didnt take to the buck if they were pregnant already? Oh, what a mess.....


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## BlueGiants (Oct 10, 2008)

Some does will accept a buck even if they are already bred. It's not a common occurance for them to actually carry a second litter though. (It can happen, just not typical.) 

I'd keep an eye on her and wait and see. I do have one Flemish doe that pulls fur for 2+ weeks after kindling. She doesn't stop until the babies starthoping out of the nestbox. (Every time the babies move to a different part of the nestbox, she pulls more fur around them.)


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## whaleyk98 (Oct 10, 2008)

Yup, thats what she seems to be doing...every time they move to another spot, she pulls more and gets some more hay to put in it....kind of comical actually. I told her shes going to go bald if she keeps pulling her hair out, lol. I cringe everytime I see her doing it..OUCH!


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## BlueGiants (Oct 10, 2008)

Awww... she's trying to be a good mommy. You have to give them credit... would you pull all your hair out for your kids? (Oh WAIT! I DO pull my hair out over my kids! LOL! ullhair


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## whaleyk98 (Oct 10, 2008)

LOL! Ditto!!


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## Elf Mommy (Oct 10, 2008)

I neeeeeeed more pictures.  email them to me and I'll post them


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## whaleyk98 (Oct 10, 2008)

Ok...give me some time. Ill try and get some by next week. :biggrin2:


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## whaleyk98 (Oct 11, 2008)

So the babies are 8 days old today (hooray! arty0002 When will they be out "of the woods" so to speak? Or will I always have to be worried?They should have their eyes open in a couple days right?


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## whaleyk98 (Oct 14, 2008)

Just wanted to let everyone know that the babies eyes are open!inkbouce::woohoo


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## polly (Oct 14, 2008)

Thats great news. sounds like the mum is doing her job fine


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## BlueGiants (Oct 14, 2008)

EXCELLENT! Right on schedule! Mom is turning out to be a great caretaker. Good for you (and the babies!) inkbouce:


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## whaleyk98 (Oct 17, 2008)

I have pics!! They are a little blurry though. 

#1 is the daddy...my opal buck. He didn't want to pose for me. Wanted to get down and run around.

#2 is of mommy...broken fawn doe...she didnt want to pose for nothing either :?.

#3 is babies! Can someone tell me what color this one is? Is he chestnut agouti? He has black guard hairs and a golden brown underneath. His belly is light cream brown color.I have a pic of the other baby but it didnt come out that well. He is a broken of the same color as this one . Any ideas?


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## whaleyk98 (Oct 17, 2008)

Not the best quality pics...sorry guys.


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