# Vitamin D / UV Light / Sunlight



## billinjax (Aug 12, 2009)

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## SweetSassy (Aug 12, 2009)

Yes, my vet has lights that he sells. I bought one. He says he knows of people doing a study of bunnies and they were trying to figure out why inside bunnies had worst teeth than outside bunnies. And.. it was because of the light(sun). So, He recommends keeping lights on the bunnies for so long a day. I can't remember for how long. I was doing it when the bunnies were bonded, but when I had seperated them, i quit, cause I only have one light. I'll start again when I rebond them, after their fixed. 



Haven't heard of the bladder thing.


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## Amy27 (Aug 12, 2009)

I hope you post anything else you find out. This is very interesting and I appreciate you posting it here. 

I have a bun with chronic sludge and stones. I take her to the vet every month. I will ask my vet about this next time we go in about 3 weeks. My vet is pretty good but has never mentioned lamps or sunlight.


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## pamnock (Aug 12, 2009)

I use the UV lamps in my rabbitry as well as my home that I buy from Walmart. The price is reasonable and my plants thrive under lights (I like them for our home during the winter months.)

Here's info on the production of vitamin D and all the organs involved in this complex process. http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/vitaminDPhysiology.shtml

Pam


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## Rayen (Aug 12, 2009)

I've always heard that it was more beneficial to just go outside for five-ten minutes than worry about UV lights. I remember reading something about it for turtles, that an outdoor turtle with get more beneficial rays outside on the average day for five minutes than an indoor turtle will get in a full day of being under a lamp. Same with people, last I heard you needed to go outside for a grand total of five-ten minutes towards the end of the day with a t-shirt and pants on to get what you need. 

I'm not sure how much vitamin D was added to the diet for these statistics though, and it's been awhile since I had read anything about it so that may not even be true anymore.

I can understand it not being worth it for cooler areas or places with a lot of rabbits, but it's rather interesting that the sun is that strong even from so far away!


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## SweetSassy (Aug 12, 2009)

I can't take my bunnies outside cause I have my yard sprayed. 



Wish I could take my bunnies outside. :sunshine:


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## pamnock (Aug 12, 2009)

We have over 80 rabbits as well as other critters, so it's not practical for us to take them out. 

Pam


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## billinjax (Aug 12, 2009)

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## Amy27 (Aug 12, 2009)

Bill, those are questions I have spoken to my vet about several times. I always get the answer that they really don't know, there just isn't enough information. My vet has said that with siblings one can have a calcium problem and the other is fine. Or an owner can have several rabbits, feed them the same diet and one rabbit will have a calcium problem and the others will be fine. 

My rabbit, Chase has had 2 bladder stones. The first stone was sent to the lab and came back 100% calcium. So I know that is my buns problem. I know that vets can take a urine sample. I wonder if they could test your buns urine to see the calcium content of it. The only problem with that is that calcium tends to sit in the bottom of the bladder so when they aspirate the urine, they may not be getting a true sample. I am not sure though. I know my bun has had urine cultures come back normal with calcium content.


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## BethM (Aug 15, 2009)

I am also interested in knowing more about this. 
I have a tortoise, and keep a UV light on her. I wasn't able to take her outside when I was in an apartment, as they used a lawn service. Her UV light also provides heat, so she basks under it during the day anyway.

I'm also wary about taking my bunnies outside, as the climate is very extreme where I am. There are only a small percentage of days that would be suitable for taking them outside. 

But if putting a UV light in their room would be beneficial, I would certainly do that. I wonder, though, would it have to be a certain distance from them to be beneficial? I know for my tortoise, the recommendation is that the bulb should be no more than a foot (?I think, it's been a long time since I looked it up) above the top of the shell to actually provide enough UV to be useful.


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## SweetSassy (Aug 15, 2009)

Beth : Yes, my vet said to put the light about 12-15 inches from them. So i would put it where they like to lay.


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## ra7751 (Aug 15, 2009)

This is very interesting...and something I have been preaching for quite a while. We see a lot of metabolic problems in wildlife that are hand raised in rehabbed. Metabolic Bone Disease (and the term is a bit inaccurate) is something we commonly see in squirrels, opossums, turtlesand birds....but it also happens in rabbits. We have been doing Vit D supplements here for years. There are two ways to get this vitamin....unfiltered sunlight or supplements. Unfiltered sunlight means just that....plain old being outside in the sun. Most all of the glass used in homes are filtered to prevent sun damage to the interior of the house. Window screens also dilute the rays. You can create artificial sunlight by using "solar simulators" (the new term for what us old people called sun lamps). The correct broad spectrum lamps are not cheap and do have a limited life span for concentrated spectrums. Many reptile and reef aquarium keepers used these simulators....and they are used in human light therapy mainly for a type of depression.

Metabolic Bone Disease does have a severely negative effect on many systems in any animal afflicted. In squirrels, we often see very brittle bones that fracture when they miss a jump. It usually results in a spinal fracture and paralysis...and there is only one human resolution to that. And an adult squirrel in this condition can be very dangerous....and is very capable of severing a child's finger. In squirrels, the cause of MBD is usually the result of an untrained person feeding a combination if improper formula along with seeds and nuts. Squirrels are also prone to deformities and seizures. Opossums will be very weak and bony...unable to climb. In opossums, again the primary cause is improper diet early in life. Many people, unfortunately even licensed rehabbers, tend to try to convert ops to solid food far too young. And birds....it is devastating and extremely painful. Again, diet is the primary factor. We have a bird now that has MBD and was fed bread and water in it's early life....never will be released. In birds, splay legs and swollen, very painful joints are the usual presentations. In turtles, the most common presentation is low weight along with a deforemed shell. The shape of the shell naturally provideds a "roll-over"...if the turtle flips, it's shell will help it right itself. With MBD, the shell has an unnatural dip which restricts the turtle's ability to right itself.

It is generally considered that approx. 20 mins of sunlight a day is sufficient. Offering supplemental Vitamin D (along with Phosphorus) is still truly a work in process. We also administer calcium injections for MBD....but they are very painful. 

Randy


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## billinjax (Aug 15, 2009)

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## jamesedwardwaller (Aug 15, 2009)

*ra7751 wrote: *


> This is very interesting...and something I have been preaching for quite a while. We see a lot of metabolic problems in wildlife that are hand raised in rehabbed. Metabolic Bone Disease (and the term is a bit inaccurate) is something we commonly see in squirrels, opossums, turtlesand birds....but it also happens in rabbits. We have been doing Vit D supplements here for years. There are two ways to get this vitamin....unfiltered sunlight or supplements. Unfiltered sunlight means just that....plain old being outside in the sun. Most all of the glass used in homes are filtered to prevent sun damage to the interior of the house. Window screens also dilute the rays. You can create artificial sunlight by using "solar simulators" (the new term for what us old people called sun lamps). The correct broad spectrum lamps are not cheap and do have a limited life span for concentrated spectrums. Many reptile and reef aquarium keepers used these simulators....and they are used in human light therapy mainly for a type of depression.
> 
> Metabolic Bone Disease does have a severely negative effect on many systems in any animal afflicted. In squirrels, we often see very brittle bones that fracture when they miss a jump. It usually results in a spinal fracture and paralysis...and there is only one human resolution to that. And an adult squirrel in this condition can be very dangerous....and is very capable of severing a child's finger. In squirrels, the cause of MBD is usually the result of an untrained person feeding a combination if improper formula along with seeds and nuts. Squirrels are also prone to deformities and seizures. Opossums will be very weak and bony...unable to climb. In opossums, again the primary cause is improper diet early in life. Many people, unfortunately even licensed rehabbers, tend to try to convert ops to solid food far too young. And birds....it is devastating and extremely painful. Again, diet is the primary factor. We have a bird now that has MBD and was fed bread and water in it's early life....never will be released. In birds, splay legs and swollen, very painful joints are the usual presentations. In turtles, the most common presentation is low weight along with a deforemed shell. The shape of the shell naturally provideds a "roll-over"...if the turtle flips, it's shell will help it right itself. With MBD, the shell has an unnatural dip which restricts the turtle's ability to right itself.
> 
> ...


i like this subject,,,my rehab/facility is a solarium-16 windows,but they are shielded during bright sun light,,unshielded on cloudy days.,,one-of-two fixtures inside has sunlight tubes,..sunlight has been at the forefront of concerns as it would seem to be important necessity of/for life-sort of a (photosynthesis)-,sincerely james [email protected]


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## jamesedwardwaller (Aug 20, 2009)

sludge,excess calcium//bladder infections,,hi.randy,,i am conducting a study-,is it possible the sludge/calcium build up in a rabbits bladder,-could possibly be linked to a lack of sunlight//-environmental factors.//one can control calcium intake through diet,,but the rabbit still has to eat..ie timothy/orchard(hay)-and pellets-for-vitamins/nutrition,and,lots of water to stay healthy,,your thoughts much appreciated,..,sincerely james waller


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## Amy27 (Aug 20, 2009)

I love this thread, it has so much great information. This may seem like a stupid question but do rabbits get vitamin D at all from regular light from your bulbs in your house? 

My buns are in the basement so they don't get a ton of sunlight. This maybe far out there but Chase's calcium issues started about 2 years after I moved to my condo where she lives in the basement. Before that she lived in my bedroom where she probably got more sunlight. I do let Chase out but she usually goes upstairs and hangs out under the bed so she still isn't getting any sunlight. 

I don't feel comfortable using the UV light bulbs. Chase isn't in a cage so I am afraid she could get to them and burn herself or she would never lay close enough to it. 

I am also curious as Bill posted to possible vitamin D supplements. Chase gets blood work once every 1-2 months to check her potassium. I wonder if vitamin D is checked then to. It would be nice to know if her levels are normal. 

I agree with James, there is only so much you can do to control calcium intake. If you are giving your rabbit low calcium food and they still have calcium issues, what are additional options. Sub q's didn't help at all. The lasix and soaking the veggies has helped. All different types of lab tests have been run, including urine cultures and cultures of the stones. After her second stone, I took her in to get her stitches removed 7-10 days later and sludge was already forming.

ETA: Are there foods high in vitamin D that we can give buns that don't get a lot of sunlight? I tried to do a search but couldn't come up with anything that a bunny could eat. Most of it was fish, milk or cereal.


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## billinjax (Aug 20, 2009)

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## jamesedwardwaller (Aug 22, 2009)

*billinjax wrote: *


> Hi Amy,
> 
> I checked with my vet. They told me that they don't (or can't?) check for Vitamin D in the standard blood work.
> 
> ...


i am of the belief(sunlight)is a life giving force,,i believe well intended people have obviously overlooked this,,there are fluorescent tubes/bulbs which project the necessary sun rays(-color-spectrum)--the heat ray penetrates glass creating a green house effect,,reflecting the uv rays/this is why one fixture inside has sunlight tubes,,i sure don,t think it would cost too much to carry out this idea/theory--which could not hurt,,..any comments are welcome,,sincerely james waller:biggrin2:


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## Saudade (Aug 22, 2009)

If you can't put your buns out in the yard, and they're indoor buns, help them up on to a windowsill, buns do love to sunbathe.


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## ra7751 (Aug 22, 2009)

One thought on light coming thru window panes....while is warming and feels good....at least here in the US all commercial glass produced for homes or carsistinted either blue or green (filtered) and do not allow the beneficial rays thre (even a screen will filter these rays). These beneficial rays are filtered because they have a "bleaching" effect and will cause dyes and paints to fade.

Randy


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## undergunfire (Aug 22, 2009)

I also can't bring my rabbits outside, nor the rats (nine rats would be worse then watching a group of preschoolers!), and I have one cat who likes to go outside (on a harness or in the dog run)...but my other cat is fearful of the outdoors. 

Living in AZ, I can't just set up a run/enclosure for the rabbits & rats to play in because our yard isn't landscaped (we rent) and even if it was landscaped..it would be all stones (that gets hot!!). We have small cactus & other various pricker things all over the yard, lizards, sometimes tarantulas, possibly snakes in the yard, etc...too risky for rats and rabbits.


So, can you crush vitamin D pills? I wouldn't even know that you can get rabbits to eat them...without mixing it with pumpkin or something. Also...aren't we feeding at least a small amount pellets because it has all of the vitamins rabbits need?


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## Saudade (Aug 22, 2009)

*ra7751 wrote: *


> One thought on light coming thru window panes....while is warming and feels good....at least here in the US all commercial glass produced for homes or carsistinted either blue or green (filtered) and do not allow the beneficial rays thre (even a screen will filter these rays). These beneficial rays are filtered because they have a "bleaching" effect and will cause dyes and paints to fade.
> 
> Randy


How interesting I did not know this. I know some of the windows in my house are tinted but many more are not.


If you live in an area where your rabbit can not go outside for whatever reason. Depending on your bun you can always walk outside with them (in your arms) for 1-3 minutes. This amount of sunlight should be sufficient.

Also Randy, how does a screen filter this light? Admittedly it would filter out a portion, but not all of it.


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## ra7751 (Aug 23, 2009)

Nearly all window glass is tinted...again, at least in the US. It is sometimes difficult to see by eye. In the good old days when we needed a windshield in a car, we would use a sheet of white paper to determine if we had a green or a blue tint. As far as a screen, I will see if I can find the article, written by a college researcher, regarding the dilution and filtering effects of tinting and screening.

And here is an interesting article that isn't about rabbits....but still on the topic of Vitamin D.

I don't think blood tests scan for Vitamin D....it's something we just know by presentations regarding MBD....and it's something we are keenly aware of when dealing with wildlife. Vitamin D can be found in liquid form. We usually use the Vitamin D tabs....crush it into a powder and it can be used in formula for the babies or sprinkled on wet greeens for older animals. As with many other things....you can overdo Vitamin D....and dosing is still a work in progress.

http://www.livescience.com/animals/090822-chameleons-sun.html

Randy


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## Saudade (Aug 23, 2009)

Just a note: As always too much of anything, a good thing or a bad thing, is always a bad thing.

# Vitamin D

* Deficiency of vitamin D causes rickets in rabbits
* Excess vitamin D intake causes toxicity and calcium deposition in tissues

http://www.provet.co.uk/Rabbits/rabbitfeeding.htm


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## jamesedwardwaller (Aug 23, 2009)

*ra7751 wrote: *


> One thought on light coming thru window panes....while is warming and feels good....at least here in the US all commercial glass produced for homes or carsistinted either blue or green (filtered) and do not allow the beneficial rays thre (even a screen will filter these rays). These beneficial rays are filtered because they have a "bleaching" effect and will cause dyes and paints to fade.
> 
> Randy


very well stated,//,thebeneficial solarrays are reflected off glass windows,,,heat rays do come through creating the green house effect,,,this aside rabbits do like to sun bathe


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## Amy27 (Aug 23, 2009)

If you can't the levels of a rabbits vitamin D, how do you know if you should be giving them a supplement or how much to give. I would hate to over give but I would also hate it if that is the issue with Chase and her calcium. She doesn't get any pellets so I could see how she could be lacking in vitamin D. From my research it doesn't appear that veggies have vitamin D, or atleast they are not on any lists of high vitamin D foods. What about the hay we feed our bunny's, do they contain any vitamin D?


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## degrassi (Aug 24, 2009)

If you are worried about it couldn't you just give your buns vitamin D drops made for people? I personally use 2 drops of Vit D a day for myself. Couldn't you use the same drops and just drop it into your rabbits water? Or I know my nephew was getting Vit D drops when he was a baby. His drops were sweeten and he liked taking them. A rabbit might be more inclined to take those drops directly into the mouth. 

Check your rabbit pellets bag to see how much vitamin D it contains. My bag list "Vitamin D3 2200 IU/kg min". Not exactly sure what that means as I dont' know what daily amount a rabbit needs. But he atleast is getting some from his food. 

As for the "sun light" bulbs. I use a few of the kinds you can buy at petstores, for my reptiles. They need to be placed very close to the animal and need to be replaced fequently(every 6months-1year depending on use and type of bulb). You can't exactly buy one small one and put it on your roof and think it will do anything. I also can't see a rabbit wanting to lie under a bright fluorescent tube a foot away from its body all the time. Plus the good UV bulbs are expensive.


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## Happi Bun (Aug 25, 2009)

I have to sit in the sun everyday for at least 15 mins due to my Vitamin D insufficiency. Of course this is on top of drinking more milk and taking multi-vitamins with Vitamin D. Since I live in a Condo, putting Dunkin outside to play and get sun isn't possible. However, I had the idea that you could sit in a chair in the sun and hold your bunny in your lap. If you are especially paranoid (like me) of them getting scared and bolting you can attach a harness with leash for extra protection.


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## tonyshuman (Aug 25, 2009)

I too have vitamin D deficiency. This is strange to me, because I am a strict bike commuter, which guarantees me at least 15 min outside every day (and I do mean every day: I commute by bike year-round, even in the WI winters). I also used to run quite a deal. The doctors did a test for my vitamin D levels--it was a blood test, and it took a lot longer for the results to come back than the CBC and thyroid tests they did at the same time, which may not mean anything, but points to me that they had to send the sample somewhere else to do the test because it is less commonly done. It broke down my vitamin D levels into different types of vitamin D, and it was determined that I'm low in D3. I take a gel capsule vitamin D3 supplement. I believe it is derived from fish.

These gel capsules might be a way to give a rabbit vitamin D3, or pills could be ground up and sprinkled on food or given in an oral suspension.

I did a back-of-the-envelope pharmacokinetics-type calculation in this thread: http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=48971&forum_id=48&highlight=vitamin+d+pellets
and determined in a non-accurate way that a rabbit needs approx 29 IU/kg of Vit D a day, based on what I'm taking as a supplement, and determined that pelleted feeds don't provide that much.


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## Amy27 (Aug 25, 2009)

Thanks Claire, I hadn't seen that thread. My buns don't get pellets so I am sure they are raelly lacking vitamin D. I am going to talk to my vet when I take Chase in and see if there is anyway to test and discuss starting a supplement or pellets.


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## tonyshuman (Aug 25, 2009)

I'm pretty sure it's possible to test, but I am from the land where vitamin D is king--one of the University of Wisconsin-Madison's major contributions to science/medicine in the early part of the 20th century was about vitamin D, adding it to milk, testing for it, and it's health benefits, so it's a bit of a different thing around here. We also have an amazing Veterinary Diagnostic Laboratory affiliated with the vet school here. I would think that most vet schools would be able to test for vitamin D as well, probably through similar Diagnostic Labs.


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## Saudade (Aug 25, 2009)

I retract this statement, mind didn't process the / in there.


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## cwebster (Feb 7, 2022)

Just found this thread and love it. Our bunny has dental issues so i took her outside the pasttwo days. It is hardto get sun so am thinking about getting a UV lamp as well. My frogs and lizards have lamps with UVbulbs but it didnt occur to me our bunny’s dental issues might be related to MBD.


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## chofamily (Feb 8, 2022)

Hypovitaminosis D in rabbits | Vetlexicon Lapis from Vetlexicon | Definitive Veterinary Intelligence


Find details on Hypovitaminosis D in rabbits including diagnosis and symptoms, pathogenesis, prevention, treatment, prognosis and more. All information is peer reviewed.




www.vetlexicon.com













Vitamin D Deficiency in Rabbits: What You Need to Know


A scientific study recently found that indoor rabbits are at risk of Vitamin D deficiency, which can lead to weakened bones and dental problems.




www.petful.com





“…experts advise against dietary supplements of Vitamin D. This fat-soluble vitamin can easily build up in fat reserves, and too much of a good thing is just as bad as not enough.”

I don’t know the solution.


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