# Pinworms and toilet habits



## Flashy (Oct 9, 2007)

I thought it might be best to start a new thread because the other one was a mishmash of stuff and this is quite specific (sorry if that wasn;t the right thing to do). I honestly don't even know if this is the right place to put this.

Ok, we have pinworms here so I have to clean and clean some more. I have 10 cages (13 rabbits- Iv'e excluded Sunshine and Sweep because they have no contact with this lot at all) that need to be thoroughly cleaned on a daily basis.

Most of my buns are not entirely proficient in using their litter trays, but will use them to a certain extent.

Now, I need to make this as easy on myself as I can because otherwise nothing will get done. I know the litter trays need to be thoroughly cleaned daily, so I'm going to get a second set and rotate them so that each day I clean one set and the other set is in the cage.

I always line each cage with newspaper so they poo on that if they don't go in the litter tray (apart from those in my room, I don't even want to contemplate what I'll have to do with them yet). I can line the hutches in my room with Fleece, I guess, although the rabbits dig that.

Do I need to scrub down their hutches daily too? If the answer is yes I have not got a clue how I'm going to do that because I have no where else to put all these rabbits as their hutches dry, and so that they don't cross contaminate each other. 

My buns are mostly learning to use the litter tray, or have been moved hutches recently and we are still negotiating as to where the litter tray is best to go (they seem to have very different ideas from me). After I had cleaned the trays I used to put a couple of poos back in the litter to remind them where to go, but obviously I can't do this anymore, so is there anything else I can do? I have a feeling we are about to descend into chaos of the worst kind.

Nadia said she scrubbed her things down with Ammonia, any idea what the product is called in the UK? And also is there anything else I can use if I don't/can't get ammonia?

Also, the buns in my room are pretty good at pinging their poo onto my carpet, what do I do about that? I haven't seen any evidence that those buns that do thishave it, but I know they can still have them. 

I really need some help with this please, I need it as easy as possible. Right now this seems like climbing Everest and totally impossible. I'm trying to be as practical and efficient as I can but all I can think about is getting all the buns put down and thatwill beit. I know that's not the right thing to do, and I'm doing my very best, and will keep doing so to do everything I can for these buns, but please help me make this easy, any suggestions are appreciated (I can't have another morning of cleaning the cages whilst bawling my eyes out). I'm sorry for being pathetic, but I just need some help.


----------



## JadeIcing (Oct 9, 2007)

Not that I know anything about this but I think it is a great idea.:biggrin2:


----------



## ra7751 (Oct 9, 2007)

Just wondering....are you treating the pinworms? Intestinal parasites can make for a poopy problem. I would treat to get rid of the pinworms and that may very well help with your other problems. Pinsworms are quite common in many animals....including humans especially children. They are usually easy to eradicate.

Randy


----------



## Flashy (Oct 9, 2007)

:shock:Of course i'm treating. I took one to the vets yesterday and started treating him and his bonded brother yesterday, and decided today to blanket treat them all because I suspect at least one other has them too.

I was given Panacur for nine days.

But as far as I know that only treats the adults? And the eggs lounge about living the life of riley for a potentially long time, so it is very hard to eradicate them? (or that's how I understood it, but I could obviously be wrong).

You say that treating the pinworms might help with the other problems, do you mean the litter training? If that is what you mean, then most of mine are not fixed, the fixed ones (who have only been done recently) are getting the hang on it, most of the others are struggling, although the does and two bucks are nearly very reliable, just not 100% reliable. Actually, now you mention it, it is the unfixed pairs of bucksthat are the worst, probably due to marking of territory.

Thanks for the reply Randy


----------



## HoneyPot (Oct 9, 2007)

I think cleaning up the litter pans daily, and changing the flooring in the cage daily (the newspaper) should be enough. I didn't scrub down their entire room daily, just the litter. I think so far your plan sounds like a good one. 

____________
Nadia


----------



## Flashy (Oct 9, 2007)

Thank you


----------



## ra7751 (Oct 9, 2007)

Glad you are treating....some people don't and I would imagine they are quite uncomfortable to have. The panacur should take care of them in short order.


----------



## tonyshuman (Oct 9, 2007)

ammonia is the chemical name. it is a component of many cleaning products. it is found in windex, but i wouldn't reccomend using that on anything but windows!

you should be able to find a generic cleaner with ammonia, like a floor cleaner/all purpose cleaner. just look for something that says it contains ammonia. it's kinda an old-school cleaner b/c it can be dangerous when mixed with bleach and acidic stuff, and it smells really bad, but it is a good disinfectant. hope that helps.


----------



## Flashy (Oct 9, 2007)

Thank Randy, yeh, I bet they can't be fun :/

Thanks tonyshuman, I knew ammonia was the chemical but when i posted I couldn't remember what Nadia said the product she found it in was called. It's good to know its out there, I'll try and locate some later. 

*

For the ammonia product, presumably it's not safe for buns until it's totally washed off and clean? But when it's been washed off it's ok? (Cant you tell I'm worried about adding another problem to the mix?).

Thanks everyone


----------



## slavetoabunny (Oct 9, 2007)

Vanodine is an excellent cleaning product. I've used it for years. It is inexpensive and you use so little of it that a bottle lasts forever.

http://www.barbibrownsbunnies.com/fam30.htm


----------



## BlueGiants (Oct 9, 2007)

Flashy, 
Vanodine is available in the UK. It works wonders on all kinds of bacteria and mold. I'm pretty sure it would take care of any eggs laying about. And it's perfectly safe to use around the rabbits. It comes in a concentrate and you dilute it with water. You will not be able to use it in your room, because it will stain fabrics. But it's excellent in the cages. And you don't have to scrub anything... (Can you find someone with a carpet steam cleaner? They work great! We usedone to get rid of flea eggs in the carpets and it did the trick!)

I like your idea of switching out the liter pans with an extra set! Good thinking. And changing the newspaper will keep things cleaner too. :sweep


----------



## Flashy (Oct 9, 2007)

Thanks 

That's a really useful tip about the steam cleaner, thanks. I couldn't do it everyday though and I don' know anyone who ahs one, but we do have a carpet cleaner wahser thing :/ I don'tr know what it is called, lol.

*

Lightning has been chewing hismelf just above where his tail ends (just a tiny bit though), so I suspect that he chewed his thingy too (as opposed to having an 'accident' or Dusk having a 'munch'). Hopefully this will clear up when the worms start dying? He's only strated doing that today and yesterday, actually, could the panacur be making him due this due to what it is doing to the worms? As they die, will this stop?


----------



## pamnock (Oct 9, 2007)

Pinworms are very common in rabbits and are very difficult to completely eradicate. I recommend regular treatments if a rabbit has been diagnosed with pinworms.

No pinworm meds treat all life stages of pinworms, making treatment more difficult. The eggs are light and easily transmitted through the air into the surroundings and rabbits easily reinfect themselves through coprophagy. Disinfection does not destroy the eggs.

Pinworm eggs can also been in the food source including pellets and hay.







Pam


----------



## Flashy (Oct 9, 2007)

Thanks Pam, I read something similar to that, that you wrote on another pinworm thread, unfortunately I know that you have so much knowledge that you can't be wrong, shame though, lol, it would be nice for it to be easily sorted.

If it's come in on the food or hay that makes sense because we've never had a problem before.

Is there anything that will get rid of the eggs?


----------



## tonyshuman (Oct 9, 2007)

the ammonia will only be harmful to the buns if they breathe in too much of the vapors or eat it. because it smells so bad, i doubt they would try to eat it or lick it off of anything. it would be best to clean things up while they are out of the room and make sure it's well ventilated, wait until the surfaces you put ammonia on are dry, and then put the buns back in. the vapors can knock you out! but if you're using a commercially bought ammonia cleaner it probably won't be concentrated enough to do damage. that is if you want to use ammonia. i don't know if it kills the eggs, but maybe someone else knows.


----------



## HoneyPot (Oct 9, 2007)

I was treating Charlie for pinworms AND coccidia at the same time (he came with both from the breeder... argh)... and I am sure I was using the ammonia to kill the coccidia to be honest.

The pinworms I just kept having to change the litter every day to try as much as possible to avoid him getting reinfected. Also I had to keep Charlie on Ivermectin for about 3 months at least. Everytime they went away, they came back... I don't know what i did to eventually get rid of his infection, I just kept changing the litter and cleaning him up.

__________
Nadia


----------



## pamnock (Oct 10, 2007)

*Flashy wrote: *


> Is there anything that will get rid of the eggs?



Scrubbing everything down will help to pick up some of the eggs.

Pam


----------



## Flashy (Oct 10, 2007)

Thanks for your help everyone.

I had to trundle him back to the vets today because I was concerned about his boy bits (we got some baytril for that) and I asked about the best way to totally eradicate them with meds, as opposed to keeping them udner control so he's going to talk to the compnay who make panacur to see how often it can be prescribed.

On another note, talk about chaos, my best boy Sky has now stopped eating. Stunning, absolutely stunning. :tears2:


----------



## Flashy (Oct 10, 2007)

*Flashy wrote: *


> On another note, talk about chaos, my best boy Sky has now stopped eating. Stunning, absolutely stunning. :tears2:


I moved his food over to where he has been all day and he's now stuffing his face :shock:From what I see and know of him (and I know him very well) he is guarding his territory against Badger and apparently going for food is not high on that priority list. My bunnies are in chaos, but at least he is eating


----------



## BlueGiants (Oct 10, 2007)

Glad Sky is eating again! Silly boy! :eats: You'd think eating would be important...

Please let us know what the Vet says about the Panacur.


----------



## Flashy (Oct 10, 2007)

Thanks, apparently Badger is FAR more important to Sky, lol. Strange bunny.

I will let you know about the Panacur, the knowledge might help someone else in the future


----------



## Bo B Bunny (Oct 10, 2007)

*Flashy wrote: *


> *Flashy wrote: *
> 
> 
> > On another note, talk about chaos, my best boy Sky has now stopped eating. Stunning, absolutely stunning. :tears2:
> ...



LOL! He's not eating to guard his territory! Isn't that just like a rabbit!? 

Let me see..... eat and lose my spot or not eat, keep my spot and get sick! 

Glad he's eating. The little brat! LOL! 

I hope you get rid of the pinworms. I know it must be so maddening dealing with all of this!

:hug:


----------



## Haley (Oct 10, 2007)

Whew, glad to hear Sky is eating- silly boy :biggrin2:

Youre right, the panacur info will be helpful for the future. Keep us posted.


----------



## Flashy (Oct 10, 2007)

lol, I know, he's a dope. The even more stupid thing though is the Badger is the other side of the barrier, but Sky did this when Cloud was in the same area, he almost keeps them in check if they misbehave, which Badger has definitely doing. I know I can handle this, with the pinworms now i'm in a bit more of a routine and such, but if something had happened to Sky (or if something happens to Sky), my world would crumble (Flash was my soulmate, Sky is my heart)Thank goodness this was only stubborness, lol. Since I've cleaned his hutch he's stayed in the downstairs bit with the food, so that's good 

As for the panacur, my buns will be hoping they stay on it. I give it to them on banana (which is their favourite) and they wolf it down. They don't ever get this much, lol, so if they find themselves on it again I'm sure they'll be happy.

Thanks for the replies.


----------



## Flashy (Oct 10, 2007)

Edited out. All very unnecessary.


----------



## Flashy (Oct 11, 2007)

I'm sorry, I have another question, I'm so sorry for being annoying, but I can't find any proper info about.

I have 6 run spaces. Am I allowed to let them out to run? Any ideas on what's best? Keep the bunnies in the same space? Or will it cross contaminate other bunnies? Keep the ones with definite pinworms in their hutches? It's too much for my little brain.

I don't have enough energy to keep researching and reseraching, any help will be appreciated  (to add to the mis we now have a suspected mouthabscess on another bunny :/ )


----------



## BlueGiants (Oct 11, 2007)

Are the runs clean? I would keep the bunnies with the pin worms in their hutches and seperate from the others. I wouldn't let them use the runs for now. As long as the runs are clean, I'd let the others out to get some execise. (No sense stressing them out too.)

Who has a mouth abcess?


----------



## Flashy (Oct 11, 2007)

Thanks  That's what I've done. Helpfully and totally co-incidentally, the runs were last scrubbed down after the pinwormy bunnies were last in there.

One of our old men lopshas a very swollen face on one side. He has spurs last Nov. and they made a tooth wobbly, and he chews it. He's been through so much in the past year and because he has suspected myxi and other things, my parents take care of him and his brother (to avoid spreading it to the nethie branch of our buns). I've told her not to put him through too much, it's not fair on him. He's got a vets appt tonight (but not with the vets I would choose, my mum has booked one with the old vets who make mistakes :/ ). I think this will be it for him, if not tonight, then when/if they operate on him to see what's going on. It's not fair to put him through more when he hates people/contact, etc. that's not fair for an old bun.


----------



## Haley (Oct 11, 2007)

Flashy, if it is in fact a mouth abscess in your lop boy, have your mom ask about Bicillin injections (if you think its something the bun would allow). Or you could print out some info for her to take in (theres tons of stuff in the library under Abscesses).

A lot of people have really great success with Bicilin injections for treating abscesses. Surgery might not be necessary at this point. 

Sending prayers for your guy. I completely understand though, sometimes its just too much for a bunny to handle (especially if human contact is too stressful for him).


----------



## Flashy (Oct 11, 2007)

Thank you Haley, I will get mum to ask about it. He would not tolerate going to the vets regularly so I would have to learn (which could be a very useful thing to learn). I wish I could take him, but mum has done her own thing, presumably becuase her and dad have been their slaves since the myxi scare. But yes, i will get her to ask. I think he would tolerate injections done at home, but that's probably as much as he could tolerate, he's 8 and a half now and he's had an awful year, not sure how much more I want him to suffer through poor boy 

But thank you, that's worth knowing. If I get more than a few mins to myself I will look in the library (lol, I'm mid cleaning all the cages, so that could be hard).

Thank you


----------



## Flashy (Oct 11, 2007)

I'm going to hi-jack my own thread.

Sunshine has a massive abscess running along one side of his mouth. They made one of his teeth wobbly last time they got rid of his spurs and that tooth has come out and the other one has over grown.

The options were

a, put him down there and then

b, give him anti-biotics and see what happens.

c, give him dental surgery and explore the abscess at the same time.

Mum chose option c, and said that if it looks mammoth or anything major then don't let him wake up. The vet thinks it's in the bone and said the prognosis is very poor. Come tomorrow we will probably be one bunny down and Sweepy will be missing his lifelong companion.


----------



## Bo B Bunny (Oct 11, 2007)

Oh no. I pray it's not that bad! ray:


----------



## slavetoabunny (Oct 11, 2007)

Unfortunately, bicillin is not available in the UK:



> There are no longer any preparations of penicillin G benzathine plus penicillin G procaine available on the UK market. If a UK vet wishes to treat a British rabbit with bicillin, supplies have to be imported from abroad (usually either France or the USA) with the accompanying special licences and red tape. This inevitably takes time, and licences have to be obtained for each animal on a "named patient" basis.


----------



## Flashy (Oct 11, 2007)

Thanks, but most likely it won't matter anymore anyway.


----------



## NZminilops (Oct 11, 2007)

I suddenly wondered, can humans get pinworms? I caught worms off a cat years ago, NOT pretty!


----------



## Flashy (Oct 11, 2007)

No, humans can't get the rabbit pinworm. This is part of something Haley posted on my other thread.



> And Ive been doing some research on pinworms (after realizing we dont have much in the library on parasites). I wouldnt worry- it sounds like its not a big deal if its being treated. And just to put your mom's mind at ease, heres one that states its not contaigious to other animals or people:
> 
> "The rabbit pinworm Passalurus abiguus can sometimes be seen in the fresh feces (apx. 3/16-inch long, whitish)."
> 
> ...


----------



## NZminilops (Oct 11, 2007)

Ok, good to know.


----------



## polly (Oct 11, 2007)

Geez Trace, thats not been a good week, what a shame for sunshine i hope it goes ok.

I hope you have a good pair of rubber gloves for all that cleaning how is Sky's bits are they starting to look any better?


----------



## Flashy (Oct 11, 2007)

If Sunshine goes, then I know he has had a fantastic life so I won't feel sad for him, but I'm really upset for Sweep. I hust went out there to say goodbye toSunshine, (I won't see him tomorrow)and they were lying together and Sweep had his chin rested on Sunshine. It's always been Sunshine and Sweep, but never one without the other. Not bad for two 8 year old unneutered men. Poor, poor lonely Sweep. He's not sociable (although isn't scared of it, he just prefers Sunshine) so it's not even like I can help, I just stress him out. Do you reckon a cuddly toy might help?

This is what Sunshine looks like today, you can see the swollenness on his left side (our right as you look at it). Poor man. but he's still sparky, still eating, drinking and lively and feisty, at least he's not suffering too much. We gave them some banana and basil todya for the first time and the timothy hay so he's going out with a bang  (I know it's still a possibility he can live, but I don't believe that he will, I need to know I have done everything I can to make things nice for him).


[align=center]




[/align]
Lightning's bits are looking FAR better today, almost normal . Although Dusk did steal half the baytril from Lightning's mouth today :Xbut Lightning doesn't look like he needs it at all, it looks shiny and new :biggrin2:His chin is all healed too, just got to keep with the metacam, panacur and baytril, lol. great. And as for the pinworms, I haven't seen any on him, dead or alive, for two days now. Don't know what that means though.


----------



## Bo B Bunny (Oct 11, 2007)

Oh HE'S SO CUTE!!!! 

He probably should have that baytril for a couple more days at least hsouldn't he?


----------



## Flashy (Oct 12, 2007)

He's on it until Sunday.


----------



## Flashy (Oct 12, 2007)

Woo. The annoyance strikes again.

I just wondered how long I should be scrubbing all the litter trays each day and if there comes a point where i can just do the ones from Lightning? And when to totally stop?

These wormies have really taxed my brain, hence all the questions, sorry.


----------



## Flashy (Oct 12, 2007)

*RIP* :sunshine:

[align=right]I don't need any comments or acknowledgements or especially prayers about this, I just wanted to know I had acknowledged him in a public place.[/align]


----------



## Flashy (Oct 12, 2007)

*Flashy wrote: *


> Woo. The annoyance strikes again.
> 
> I just wondered how long I should be scrubbing all the litter trays each day and if there comes a point where i can just do the ones from Lightning? And when to totally stop?
> 
> These wormies have really taxed my brain, hence all the questions, sorry.



Ok, so I asked this earlier, and I have a new question too, sorry for being a pain (I have been googling but can't find anything useful).

When can I start using their poo to retrain them to use their litter trays? Some have been ace, but some have gone a bit out of control (Hope is now using his food bowl as a 'litter tray' so that's getting a scrub everyday too).

I know I have to wait longer with the wormy onesbut I'm hoping that with the others I can start when the panacur is done and keep and eye on them all?


----------



## Bo B Bunny (Oct 13, 2007)

You know, I have no clue but it is a valuable question.

Do we know the life cycle pattern? like how long eggs live, etc., 

If you can find those answers - you can gauge it that way.

How's everyone acting? feeling better?


----------



## HoneyPot (Oct 13, 2007)

Hey there - haven't been on and missed all your questions .

Ok, so you don't necessrily need to scrub the litter pans out TOO much, just make sure you're changing the litter out every day and give them a rinse, but no need for intense scubs.

I did it every day for about 3 months to be honest (that's how long it took me to get rid of them), but I would say do it until their medicine is done and the treatments are over.

How often do you have to give them the pancur? I agree with your plan to keep cleaning the wormy one till you see no more worms, the others, when the medication is gone, about a week after, I would go back to normal too.

As far as retraining with the poops go - you can do that now, just as long as you keep up the tray cleaning daily you should be good.

Sounds like you're doing a great job so far. I was so overwhelmed when my guys got it - all that cleaning... but then i fell into a routine.

___________
Nadia


----------



## maherwoman (Oct 14, 2007)

Hey there...

I don't know much about parasites, but did find this article. Let me know if it helps! 

Hugs and mountains of patience in fighting this to you!

Rosie & the Zoo*


----------



## Bo B Bunny (Oct 14, 2007)

From what I was told so far, it is hard to give an answer to this because the eggs are light and airborn so they transfer easily.

As far as litter habits, I would be more inclined to place the litterbox where they tend to be going.


----------



## pamnock (Oct 14, 2007)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> You know, I have no clue but it is a valuable question.
> 
> Do we know the life cycle pattern? like how long eggs live, etc.,
> 
> ...



There isn't extensive research on the rabbit pinworm (Passalurus ambiguus). It does have a simple, direct life cycle with no intermediate host.

The adults live in the cecum of the rabbit, and one of the larval stages lives in the mucosa of the small intestine and cecum of the rabbit.

Eggs are deposited on the rectum and are also passed in the feces.

The eggs are viable for 20+ days (It is unknown how long the eggs can remain viable in an ideal environment).

The rabbit becomes re-infected by ingesting the eggs.

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/GI_diseases/Parasitic_diseases/Passalurus.PDF



Pam


----------



## pamnock (Oct 14, 2007)

I should also note that Ivermectin "does" kill adult stage worms. There are many references that contradict this information as well as many that support it.

When I have administered Ivermectin to rabbitsknown to be infested with pinworms (dosage1/10 of a cc of Ivermectin per every 5 lbs. of body weight), large numbers of dead adult stage pinworms were expelled in the feces on the 3rd day after administering the Ivermectin.

It should also be noted that there is "no" de-wormer that kills every stage of the rabbit pinworm - this can make effective treatment more difficult.

The informational sites recommended by Etherbun "previously" had information confirming that Ivermectin is effective in treating pinworms. That information was removed immediately after I had pointed it out to Etherbun posters who argued that Ivermectin was not effective in pinwormtreatment. (That is why you'll notethe Ivermectin information in red in the text).



Pam


----------



## HoneyPot (Oct 14, 2007)

*pamnock wrote: *


> When I have administered Ivermectin to rabbitsknown to be infested with pinworms (dosage1/10 of a cc of Ivermectin per every 5 lbs. of body weight), large numbers of dead adult stage pinworms were expelled in the feces on the 3rd day after administering the Ivermectin.



Yup - exactly the same thing when I treated Charlie. He had Ivermectin and 3 days later - brown dead worms on his bum. I always knew he got reinfested if after that i started seeing live ones again and he would get another treatment.

_____________
Nadia


----------



## Flashy (Oct 17, 2007)

thanks for your helpd evyringe


----------



## HoneyPot (Oct 18, 2007)

Well guess what...

Charlie has pinworms again. This morning I spotted a female in one of his poops. It's been almost a year without them... and now they're back. ARGH. How do they even get them? I'm so careful with their food and water. Back to the vet for some medication... and back to the litter cleaning.

Perfect timing... just when I am planning to go away...

___________
Nadia


----------



## Flashy (Oct 18, 2007)

:hug:I sympathise with you. Good luck in your battle.



Mayhbe they got them via cyber contsact with each other,via us as the carriers of eggs :O


----------



## Flashy (Dec 22, 2007)

Oh good. We have festive wormy visitors.

I can't do all the cleaning I did before, not this time of year, so they are going to have to settle for every other day cleaning and scrubbing of the litter trays.

They have only come back because I told the vet on Tuesday that they never came back :X

It's only today they have arrived too, they weren't here yesterday.


----------



## HoneyPot (Dec 24, 2007)

Aww. I feel your pain!! 

To be honest, I wasn't half as committed to the cleaning this time around with Charlie either... and no more worms after he was treated. *shrug* I guess sometimes it's a bit of luck too!

Nadia


----------



## Flashy (Dec 24, 2007)

Yup, all the cleaning in the world won't make that much difference because they eat their cecals, obviously, so are exposing themselves to the eggs.

Hopefully Lightning's (I nearly put mine, lol) will disappear after this round of panacur. I'm also starting to wonder if some buns are more susceptable, for whatever reason.


----------

