# Baytril question



## michelle86 (Nov 29, 2008)

Hey everyone,

I joined to ask this question. The vet gave me baytril for my rabbit's snuffles. They gave it to me in the injection form, but said to give it by mouth. 1.2ml twice daily for 5 days. It has a very strong smell, like nail polish remover/alcohol. 

It was the vet tech that came in and said, "this is the injection form, but you're going to give it by mouth." She gave me the syringe... which stupidly does not fit the bottle of medication, so I have to force it in just to draw some up. 

I've given my rabbit this medication twice already, and I was just concerned that this injection form is not okay to give by mouth. I have been diluting it with applejuice... I still have to force my rabbit to take it because he won't go anywhere near that syringe because it tastes bad. Also with the apple juice there is some kind of interaction and when the two combine it becomes cloudy with white sediment. Another concern... but I have to dilute it with something to make it easier for my rabbit. 

Has anyone given baytril before? Was it like mine? Clear liquid that smells strongly like nail polish remover and alcohol? And do you know if the injection form can be given by mouth? 

I am just concerned because it was the vet tech that bottled the medication and was the one who gave me the instructions and not the veterinarian himself.

Michelle


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## Luvr of Wabbits and Polar Bears (Nov 29, 2008)

When my little guy Fluffy was given Baytril for HT it was by mouth every 12hrs. I don't remeber if he liked it cause i sent to my parents place cuase i couldn't deal with it, But i think he didn't like it. I had to hold him in my knees and open the side of his mouth and stick it in a little bit at a time.
Ok i just read on a website that sometimes Baytril is injected but most cases it's given oral


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## Flashy (Nov 29, 2008)

I have no idea if it differs from oral to injectable to be honest, however, having given Baytril too many times to count i can tell you my rabbits deteste it. It is made for dogs and I believe is flavoured to be appealing to dogs. I have a bun who had to have it and it made him spasm with disgust at it, all round the room, lol, so that part of not unusual, but hopefully someone more knowledgable can clarify if the injectable and oral are the same.


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## michelle86 (Nov 29, 2008)

Does anyone know if there are two separate forms of the medication? I'm getting the injection form to give by mouth... but is there a liquid form made to give by mouth? Or is it normal to give the injection form by mouth? 

What I have to give to Ben just does not smell like something that is okay to give by mouth. So it makes me worried :?


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## Luvr of Wabbits and Polar Bears (Nov 29, 2008)

I recomend u PM RANDY ra7751 and ask him. Or u hope a mod shows up and they can move it to the infirmary and u will get good help there.


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## NorthernAutumn (Nov 29, 2008)

most bunny meds smell and tastes like hell.
No two ways about it.
I personally wouldn't feel comfortable diluting it with apple juice, due to unknown chemical interactions... however, someone else would be better suited to commenting on this part.
I give my guys craisins before and after to kill the taste...
Yes, it is gross for them .

Perhaps you cannot give injectible by mouth... hopefully someone will answer this one quickly...


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## michelle86 (Nov 29, 2008)

I diluted it with the apple juice after trying to find online what others have diluted it with. Others said they have used apple juice but didn't note the type of interaction I saw. Maybe it is with additives that are in the injectable form? I have no clue. It worries me though.


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## michelle86 (Nov 29, 2008)

Thank you very much. I PM'd him and also posted my question on the infirmary.


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## Maureen Las (Nov 29, 2008)

You can give the injectable by mouth ; that is safe..

BUT 

the vet is (excuse me) is an idiot for not sending you to a compounding pharmacy or trying in some way to flavor that drug. That drug is supposed to taste absolutely horrific....
I would call him back and ask if you could have it compounded at a pharmacy. The vet would call a pharmacy and they would mix the enrofloxicin with a very sweet syrup to mask the horror of the taste.
I have alsogiven that medication by Intramauscular injection 
if they had the time to teach you it is not that diffiult

it also (acccording) to Randy works way better when injected and I can attest to that as I have given it orally and injected it. 
I would pursue this one as I have never heard of a vet not having the sense to flavor baytril :grumpy:


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## michelle86 (Nov 29, 2008)

My vet is not open on the weekends. Do you know if apple juice is okay? Or if there is anything else that I could dilute it in?


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## BlueMoon (Nov 29, 2008)

The injectible form of Baytril should be effective given orally, if you can get the rabbit to take it. It does normally have a terrible taste and smell. To my understanding, the oral (liquid suspension) form of baytril is made with the crushed tablet form (which tastes better). The liquid injectible, of course, is not designed to taste good, and it doesn't! 

What you saw when you mixed the baytril with apple juice sounds like an actual reaction between the meds and juice. Apple juice is acidic and Baytril is very basic, so the combination will cause a salt to precipitate out. I can't be sure whether this would have an effect on the drug action, but my guess is that it would. Mixing the meds with something like corn syrup (which is less acidic) would be a tasty way to give the meds that would be "safe" for the drug. 

I think it would be a good idea to call your vet and ask about getting a liquid suspension of Baytril instead. Even mixed in corn syrup, the injecible form still isn't going to taste great. Whether giving you the injecible form was intended or an oversight, if the bunny won't take the meds, they won't work.


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## MyRabbits (Nov 29, 2008)

The few times I have had to give my rabbits baytril, they loved it. The vet gave it to me in an oral suspension that was banana-flavored. I hope you are able to find something like that.


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## Little Bay Poo (Nov 29, 2008)

We were administering Baytril orally for a few weeks, but ours was compounded (not sure what flavor but it was bright red in color). Even compounded, I think it still had a bad taste. Our bunny would go around chewing anything and everything to get the taste out of his mouth and went crazy for a salt lick. He is not a chewer so this was odd behavior for him. When he went off the Baytril he went back to normal.


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## ra7751 (Nov 29, 2008)

Hi All,

I usually post this type of info in the infirmary..but to make sure it's seen, I will post here. Some comments on Baytril.

>Baytril has lost it's punch due to the over use (the old let's give them something just in case) treatment. The bacteria that was once sensitive to Baytril are becoming resistant and the drug doesn't work. I haven't used it in years and most exotic focus vets are steering away from it.

>Injectable can be used orally. It is very bitter tasting. If you have to use it orally, you can cut the edge off the taste by flavoring the drug with a sugar free flavoring. *Do not use sugary products like corn syrup, Karo Syrup or sugar water*. You are going to stress the beneficialbacteria in the gut enough by putting an antibiotic in there and sugar only stresses the beneficialbacteria more. And I have concerns about the acidity in the gut. In an adult rabbit, the pH is very acidic. That might inhibit the drug somewhat. But if you change the pH to a more alkaline position, it will have a negative effect on the beneficial bacteria in the gut. The pH in the gut need to remain in it's normal pH range to support the growth of beneficial bacteria. There are numerous other drugs that are effective and safe against a wide range of pathogens without risking the gut.

>As far as I know, in the US anyway, there is no Baytril suspension available. Any suspended Baytril has been compounded by your vet. If they use FlavorX, it can be flavored to taste. The tablets, called taste tabs, are made exclusively for dogs and are liver flavored. There is nothing to make this taste any different. You can tell taste tabs were used if the suspension is brown. 

>If Baytril must be used, it is more effective (relatively speaking) when it is injected.

>There is no such thing as snuffles. It is a generic term from the dark ages. The most common pathogen found in rabbit infections is Pasteurella Multocida. The drug of choice in fighting Pasteruella is Zithromax. Other drugs I have used are Penicillin, Chloramphenicol and most recently, Convenia. There is always the possibility of other pathogens so it is critical to perform cultures to determine the exact pathogen and exactly what the bacteria is sensitive to.

Randy


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## Leaf (Nov 29, 2008)

I've merged these two threads together - they were identical.


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## Maureen Las (Nov 29, 2008)

I was trying to do it for the first time and couldn't figure out what happened 
been sitting here scratching my head for the past 10 min.

Thanks Leaf


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## Maureen Las (Nov 29, 2008)

Well we still don't know what she can flavor it with ??
How about fresh pineapple juice
yes ..it is sugary but we give it other times...
I'm going to post this on etherbun


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## Maureen Las (Nov 29, 2008)

I posted this on etherbun ..I'll let everyone know when I get some responses.


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## Maureen Las (Nov 29, 2008)

Well someone on etherbun uses the syrup that is used to flavor coffee
I just thought that certain brands of those flavored syrups have sugar-free kinds.

?? :?


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## undergunfire (Nov 29, 2008)

I crush and grind one Baytril tablet for my rats, then mix it with part water and part Strawberry syrup (like the kind you can make strawberry milk with). I am not sure if you can use this with rabbits, though, as I know rabbits don't have the same stomach system as ratties.


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## Maureen Las (Nov 29, 2008)

someone else just suggested banana baby food..

you'd have to get a bigger syringe but they sell them at Walgreens to feed infant's meds or you can ask the pharmacist for maybe a 20cc one.


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## michelle86 (Nov 29, 2008)

Thank you for being such a great help angeluv, and everyone else too  I think I'll try the banana baby food.


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## NorthernAutumn (Nov 29, 2008)

Pinapple juice is sugary, but would be in keeping with the rabbit gut pH range, as Randy said...
Hmmm. Since Randy specifically mentioned simple sugar compounds, maybe poly-sacchrides would be better?
Kelly, oh pharmacy student, where are you?


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## Maureen Las (Nov 29, 2008)

Another etherbun memeber suggested actually getting syrup from a compounding pharmacist. They will sell it in small amounts as it isn't a med. 
I'm just passing these along asI get them....


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## ra7751 (Nov 29, 2008)

Oops....I forgot to post what to flavor drugs with....I did in the PM but didn't in the forum. There is a company that makes just such a product....and they have a veterianary division too. I have purchased their "at home" kits at large retailers such as Wal-Mart under the name of "Flavor It". While they do have animal flavors...various meety, fruity and veggie flavors...my rabbits have always been partial to the human flavors...mostly grape and bubble gum. Doesn't matter what it is as long as it's tasty and sugar free.

http://flavorx.com/human/default.asp

If you use banana...remmber to use as small a piece as possible. The antibiotics will stress the bacteria...and sugar just adds more stress. A much better option would be canned pumpkin.

Randy


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## michelle86 (Nov 29, 2008)

Tonight I gave him the Baytril in baby banana food. At first I tried just the baby food in the syringe to see if he liked it. And he loveddd it. Ha, at first he didn't want to take anything from the syringe because of what I had given him earlier. 

Then I drew up 1.2 ml of the medication and then filled the rest of the syringe (3 ml syringe) with baby food. He hated it and so I had to force him to take it. Once I get the tip in his mouth and push it he will lap and swallow against his will, but I have to hold him there.


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## undergunfire (Nov 29, 2008)

Thank you for this information. I may have to look into this for other flavors, rather than the strawberry syrup. Sometimes the rats get sick to where they need meds for up to a month, so having different flavors would keep it interesting for them!


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## Maureen Las (Nov 29, 2008)

yeah thanks Randy

I can use that info also..


Michelle,
You are going to have to get a bigger syringe if you are going to use banana baby food ..you need a greater amount to flavor it 

or
possibly use a blender to liquefy a tiny piece of actual banana and mix in the baytril and then try to get it into a larger syringe 
if you used canned pure pumpkin without flavoring you could use even a larger amount to dilute the taste but you would have to feed him more of it. 

if you are using a small syringe the taste will still be too strong.

you would need probably at least a 10cc -20cc-syringe

I asked the pharmacist once at walgreens if i could buy a couple syringes and told him what for and he sold them to me 
let us know

sorry that you have to go through all of this....


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## NorthernAutumn (Nov 29, 2008)

My vet gave me free syringes when I was doing drugs with my buns (sounds horrible )
I would go back and ask them for a larger syringe; they might give it to you, considering they didn't do the compounding part correctly...


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## michelle86 (Nov 29, 2008)

I think I may mix it in a small cup or something with a bunch of pumpkin and then just have to fill the smaller syringe a few times.

Thanks everyone for all the help!  I'll let you know how it goes with his next dose in the morning.


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## kherrmann3 (Nov 30, 2008)

*NorthernAutumn wrote: *


> Kelly, oh pharmacy student, where are you?


Hehe, I *was* a nursing student, but close enough lol Sadly, I don't know much about Baytril. I decided I didn't want to be a nurse before I got to the medication classes  I did look up some research, though.

Unfortunately, they only say that it can be flavored with a "substance" at the vet's office. Other than that, I've only seen people mention using banana baby food. 

Here are two suggestions that I read for giving baytril to guinea pigs (let's see what other people here say before trying these!)

I saw this one up further in the topic, too...
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> My pigs have gotten Baytril in a Hershy's Strawberry Syrup suspension. Tastes way better and they don't fight it.


Here's a different one...
*



My stepfather's rabbit is on Baytril for a URI. He crushes it up and puts it in some pumpkin with 1 cc of Benebac. When she stopped eating it that way, he crushed it up, put it in some yogurt, and sandwiched it between two banana coins. She is eating this now.

Click to expand...

*I also found out that baytril is not used in human medicine because it causes hallucinations. 

Sorry I couldn't be of more help  I hope something here helps! Good luck!


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## Maureen Las (Nov 30, 2008)

*NorthernAutumn wrote: *


> My vet gave me free syringes when I was doing drugs with my buns (sounds horrible )


:roflmao::laugh:
That really made my day!


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## Maureen Las (Nov 30, 2008)

I just receved more info from etherbun, specifically Rami who is a vet. Rami states that the injectable (rather than oral form ) of baytril can be given to rabbits orally but only for a short period of time because there is alcohol in it and it can damage the stomach. 

I thought of that at the time because I have injectable batril here and there is alcohol in it. 

I would call your vet on mon AM and get this straightened out as your rabbit shouldn't be getting the injectible form for an extended period of time. 
Sorry we didn't know this at the start of this discussion. 

It's possible that your vet has baytril tablets which could be broken up and dissolved for oral use for your rabbit.


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## michelle86 (Nov 30, 2008)

It is prescribed for 5 days. I don't know if that would be considered long or not. But I am definitely calling the vet tomorrow in the morning. 

I tried the pumpkin today. I tried a syringe with just pumpkin and no medicine. And he hated it. So I could not imagine mixing the medication with 5 syringe fulls (15ml total) of that and having to give it to him. 

So I went back to the banana thinking he would act better. He didn't. I knew he liked the banana before there was any medicine in it the first time when I gave it to him last night. But this morning he didn't want to be anywhere near that syringe. So it took me over half an hour to give him 5 syringes of banana baby food with his medicine. He went in circles in his pen trying to get away and tried hiding his head in every corner. Now he's exhausted.

I have to go to school in the morning and I'm going to have to make sure I get up extra early to get ready before I give him his dose of baytril.

I'm going to ask the vet if I can just give him the rest of his baytril by injection because it does not matter what is in that syringe, he doesn't want to get near it anymore.


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## Maureen Las (Nov 30, 2008)

You know that you are beng very responsible. 

the fact that this guy (vet) gave you this amount to give to a rabbit unflavored is ridiculous. 
You could either give injections. ask him for tablets and then dissolve them or ask for another med.
you could also try something else mentioned here to mixbutI do know that it is a lot to do today...
how are your rabbits other symptoms?


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## JadeIcing (Nov 30, 2008)

I have mixed it with alittle grated carrots. Umm baby food. In side of a big fat rasin. Umm squirt it in the mouth fast than stuff a crasin in. On a peice of lettuce. Yea lots of ways. 

Don't get me started on the Zithromax.


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## michelle86 (Nov 30, 2008)

He sneezes every once in a while. I haven't seen more discharge. I really only saw it that once, but it was so much, like this big gob of white stuff on his face. Really scary. He was having frequent loose stools, but I haven't seen that as much. So that's an improvement.

I'm surprised he hasn't bitten me over this medication stuff, he probably thinks I'm trying to kill him as horrible as that stuff must taste. He'd probably puke it out if he was capable of puking.


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## michelle86 (Nov 30, 2008)

I think the only way to make sure he gets the baytril is to give it some way in a syringe. If I tried to give him it in carrots or raisins, it would probably go to waste, because I wouldn't be able to force those things like I could with something in a syringe.


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## kherrmann3 (Nov 30, 2008)

*NorthernAutumn wrote: *


> My vet gave me free syringes when I was doing drugs with my buns (sounds horrible )


*kherrmann3 wrote: *


> ... baytril is not used in human medicine because it causes hallucinations.


Sorry, these two items together made me giggle for awhile. :biggrin2:


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## NorthernAutumn (Nov 30, 2008)

Glad I can make you feel better, Kelly:biggrin2:

BTW, what do the buns experience? Munchies?


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## Maureen Las (Nov 30, 2008)

*michelle86 wrote: *


> I think the only way to make sure he gets the baytril is to give it some way in a syringe. If I tried to give him it in carrots or raisins, it would probably go to waste, because I wouldn't be able to force those things like I could with something in a syringe.



If it was me I would go buy a bottle of sugar free coffee flavoring syrup. this is the syrup that you ask for when you go to a starbucks or caribou and say that you want a shot of caramel, hazelnut, etc etc in your coffee.
We do have a compoundingpharmacy in this town ; I might askthe pharmacist if i could buy a little flavoring . You might call some drugstores and ask to talk to the pharmacist?

if your rabbit is improving (sounds like it) I would keep giving the meds until you talk to the vet.


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## michelle86 (Nov 30, 2008)

I tried making him like the syringe.... I just put some juice in it, he loves apple juice, and he absolutely refused, even though there's no medication in it. I don't think there's any way I could ever flavor this and have him like it. He just has a horrible aversion to this syringe now.


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## Maureen Las (Nov 30, 2008)

that's sad....


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## BethM (Nov 30, 2008)

When Nick got Baytril, I got the type the vet ground up to make a suspension. It sort of smelled like pellet food, but I don't know if it was flavored or not. Nick *hated* it. On the difficult days, when he would fight and fight the syringe, I would smear whatever I couldn't get him to take on the tops of his paws, so he was forced to clean it off. 

The vet also suggested squirting it into the middle of a chunk of banana, or smearing it on top of a banana slice, but I didn't try that. He won't eat a treat when he's in the "torture room." (What I call the guest bathroom where all bun treatments are done.) If I gave it to him in his pen, Amelia might have tried to steal it.


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## michelle86 (Dec 1, 2008)

So this morning I noticed that Ben's stools are much lighter in color than normal. He also seems to be having fewer. I also noticed he has hardly touched his pellets and hay. Before yesterday he was eating fine. And the last time I filled his bowl was yesterday morning. I expected to refill his bowl this morning, but I didn't have to. And the majority of the hay I gave him yesterday is still in there.

He still goes nuts for his treats and I fed him a small piece of peach and he liked that. So I don't know why he's not eating his pellets. Possibly because I'm giving him 30 mls of other food with his medicine per day? 

I also have not noticed much of a decrease in the level of the water in his bottle. He has a huge bottle though.

Any thoughts on any of this? I am going to call the vet this morning about giving him the baytril SQ (I kinda doubt they will let me) but would like to hear any suggestions from you guys first because I am also going to mention the changes in his eating behavior and poop.

Thanks!


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## michelle86 (Dec 1, 2008)

I just went and checked on him and he pooped outside of his litterbox. Which is unusual. And they were those light brown colored ones.


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## Flashy (Dec 1, 2008)

It sounds like it playing havoc with his gut and he is struggling to deal with it. Often pellets are the first thing to go when they don't feel great, but treats and hay remain, and then they gradually filter out, so if he is eating some things then that's good, but obviously not great because he has stopped eating normally.

He needs a good vet today.


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## michelle86 (Dec 1, 2008)

I just caught him eating wood pellets. I use wood pellets for his litter rather than shavings. Maybe the baytril is making him confused? After kherrmann3 said that it causes hallucinations it has stuck in my mind every time I give the poor guy his medicine it's going to make him loopy


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## Flashy (Dec 1, 2008)

I don't think it's a sign of being confused, more of being uncomfortable. It would be worth finding a way for him to not be able to get to the wood pellets because that will add to the stomach troubles. Maybe cover them with hay, or use something else, or put some sort of covering over the top.


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## michelle86 (Dec 1, 2008)

I called the vet, but he wasn't available but I was told he'd call me back. Hopefully soon.


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## Maureen Las (Dec 1, 2008)

I would guess that the baytril is wreaking havoc on his gut and possibly causing him all these problems. 

next question 

Do you have any other vets in your area that you trust are good with rabbits?
I just feel that the manner in which these meds were handed to you was really reflective of either a bad vet tech or possibly a less than desirable vet. 
you really don't want to give baytril subqutaneously as it is an extreme irritant to the tissue. 

You would need to give it itramuscularly which requires some skill but is possible if the vet teaches you. 


if you stick with this vetI would insist on a med change . if they want to use baytril have them grind the tablets. This isnot tasty but also doesn't have the offensive alcohol preservative in it.
baytril is a veterinary drug only and would make a human confused but not a rabbit. I agree that he is probably eating the wood pellets out of discomfort. possibly his tummy has a burning senstion


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## michelle86 (Dec 1, 2008)

The vet hasn't called yet. I'll will ask about getting the tablets instead when he calls though. 

I just caught him eating some of his pellets! So that is good. And earlier I got him to drink water out of the syringe so he'd get some fluids.


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## michelle86 (Dec 1, 2008)

No more Baytril for Ben!!!!  The vet is going to see what other antibiotic he can give him.


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## Flashy (Dec 1, 2008)

That's good 

What country are you in? Someone may be able to suggest something that you could suggest to your vet.


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## michelle86 (Dec 1, 2008)

Maine, USA


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## michelle86 (Dec 1, 2008)

Okay guys, this is what they prescribed. Trimethoprim. It's a children's liquid antibiotic, and I have to pick up the prescription and pick it up at a regular pharmacy.

Has anyone used this on their bunnies before?


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## Maureen Las (Dec 1, 2008)

It's commonly used for rabbits. it's a sulfa drug
it should already be in a suspension
ask him if it's flavored and all that...

I'm still irritated that your bun and you had to have a weekend from hell because of their baytril.:grumpy:


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## michelle86 (Dec 1, 2008)

So I got the Trimethoprim. It's grape flavored!  Hopefully he will like it. Or I might just do this: ullhair:

It smells good though. The prescription is for 1.2 ml twice daily for 10 days, so it is a longer course. And buying drugs at a regular pharmacy is way cheaper than buying them at the vet's by the way. $4 for 25 ml of this stuff, vs $21 for baytril which was 11 ml.


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## JadeIcing (Dec 1, 2008)

*michelle86 wrote: *


> So I got the Trimethoprim. It's grape flavored!  Hopefully he will like it. Or I might just do this: ullhair:
> 
> It smells good though. The prescription is for 1.2 ml twice daily for 10 days, so it is a longer course. And buying drugs at a regular pharmacy is way cheaper than buying them at the vet's by the way. $4 for 25 ml of this stuff, vs $21 for baytril which was 11 ml.


Trust me I know. I buy my Ringos meds at work SOOOO much cheaper.


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