# Questions for breeders



## CKGS (Jun 14, 2009)

I just tried to post this once and am trying again. Sigh. 

Okay Breeders, here goes. 

First question- Do you have criteria in place for whom you will or won't sell your rabbits to? Are there any restrictions set in place that will ensure the rabbits you sell are going to go to a 'good' home? I put good in parenthesis because everyones idea of good varies with each persons personal ideals. 

Second question- Are there any questions asked of the potential buyer other than whether they want show potential or pet potential? 

Third question- How are your rabbits raised? Are they raised in a home like setting where not much will phase them as they transition to their new home? Are they raised outdoors? Are they handled daily and used to being examined while with you? 

I am not trying to be noisy... Well okay maybe I am... I am. Lol. 

I have my reasons for asking these questions. I mainly ask because I enjoy learning and these are questions that I am curious to know answers about. Thanks so much if you participate!


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## tori (Jun 14, 2009)

I don't breed and at the moment I don't own anymore rabbits. But I am looking and I am very curious as to these questions as well


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## CKGS (Jun 14, 2009)

Thanks Tori. I think many people would be interested in these answers. I also wouldn't be surprised if some answers aren't what is expected from many on the forum. I have my views of what I consider a good breeder. I just wonder what others views on the matter is.


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## Numbat (Jun 14, 2009)

Not that I'm a breeder, but in my opinion temperament and health should come first. The breeders I've talked to work towards this


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## polly (Jun 14, 2009)

I will be perfectly honest with you I have people come from all over Scotland for my rabbits. Most of them seek me out through the internet I know a lot of the breeders through showing and socialising so they are different. I also get people referred to me through word of mouth.

I usually just listen to what they say when they phone email me i make sure all my rabbits go witha care sheet and regulalrly sell male female pairs as pets. However I wont let them get both together at same age unless I either know them personally or I feel they have a good rabbits knowledge. And I have let them take one and come choose another one when they are ready put it through teh spay/neuter before they are due to go on holiday then bond them for them while they are away as we rabbit sit and MOt the buns we have bred if people are local.

Obviously we wont sell to people under 18 as its illegal over here and I find people ofetn want to tell you the story fo why they want a nethie so you usually do not have to ask much they willingly give the info over. 

My rabbits are all sold with care sheets and a file with their details onit for vets and their info. we make sure that people know how to handle them before they go etc try to cover all bases.

We invite people to our shed I have had a lot of lovely comments on our set up and how nice it is to see well looked after rabbits in clean sheds etc I feel that helps build trust you cant get to my sheds unless you go through my house anyway so I feel they are safe 



If someone wants to go into showing then obviously we generally put them on a waiting list till we get something available that is suibtable I was sold a lot of crap rabbits when I started and I would never do that to anyone else starting out!!

My rabbits are housed in sheds the babies are handled every day from birth they coem in the house and are put in runs in the garden from 3 weeks old. I will not put up with any vicious rabbits that is my biggest no no. they have a radio in ech shed so they are used to noise. Generally I find they are not at all fazed when they go to their new home.

I am sure Flashy would be able to tell you seeing as she has seen my rabbits many times on webcam how friendly they are they all look for cuddles and kisses they dont shy away from me. Both adults and kits are happy and human friendly. Obviously we have rabbits with different personalitys which I think you notice more the more you have and I do try and match buns up to people and other buns. SO if I sell a rabbit and someone comes back to me for a partner for it I can usually pick teh best match. We have never had any bonding problems and I can usually have them bonded and settled in a few days if not quicker.

I think a good breeder will understand their rabbits personalities and be able to work with them accordingly whether they are going to be your top stud buck or a pet. but thats just my opinion I hope that covers what you wanted to know


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Jun 14, 2009)

1. I don't really have a _set _criteria in place, but I do of course ask if the people have had rabbits before, where they're going to be kept, what they're being used for, etc. If I know the person, and I feel that they aren't good for owning animals, either from past pets, or something else, then I will probably refuse a sale. 

2. I do ask buyers if they want a rabbit either for show or pet potential. That's a big one, because you don't want to not ask, and then give a pet rabbit to someone who wants to show. Of course, 4-Hers will always want show quality animals, and so no need to ask; but some 4-Hers do want pet quality buns for the pet classes. 

3. My rabbits are raised in an outdoor rabbitry...so I guess it's indoors, hehe. They get interaction daily, and we try to handle them all at least once a week, if not more. The babies get handled daily, and we're trying to handle the adults a lot more. 

I also agree with Polly that I will neversell crap 'show quality' rabbits. I have bought a few rabbits that weren't as good as the I was told they were... 

Emily


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## CKGS (Jun 14, 2009)

Thanks so very much Polly and Emily for your honest and insightful answers. I do honestly appreciate them. I wish I were closer to you Polly. I would definetly buy one from you, a bit far from you though. 
I wish more reputable breeders of rabbits were to be found but I have found many that in my opinion are lacking. Let me give you some examples of breeders that IMHO are reputable breeders that animals as a whole benefit from.
1.) They take back any animal they have created if for whatever reason the buyer cannot or simply won't keep it. This does not always mean money back but in some instances I think money should be given back. Example- The breeder who bred my German Shepherd Dog guaranteed her for a year after sale to be free from any defects. She was a perfect example of the breed temperment wise and she was beautiful (to me- not to the GSD show world). She was healthy as a horse until she hit 4. She was x rayed again (2nd time) and diagnosed with Hip Dysplasia. It was moderate but I notified the breeder as I kept him up to date with brief notes about my dog thru email. This wonderful man refunded 1/2 of what I paid for her although I kept trying to refuse it. After all I was way past contract. I loved her and didn't care if I had to spend a fortune on her. Long story short I put her to sleep at the age of 10 as she could barely walk from the dysplasia and arthritis that had set in. This man offered me the rest of the money back and above and beyond-another puppy. I refused both as I didn't think it fair plus I was in no way ready for another dog. She was my heart dog. Still is. That is a breeder who cares.
2.) Breeders who handle their babies daily. I can't think of a reason to not be able to pick them up at least once. Too many rabbits, again IMO, is an excuse- time to cut back and remember why you started breeding. I bet it wasn't to become over run.


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## terrellflyer (Jun 14, 2009)

As a breeder I try to match the customer with the animal,after talking to some people I will not sell them anything.To utilize the animal is one thing,to abuse is another.I prefer to sell pet/show/breeding stock at the age of 8 weeks to 12 weeks,at that age the animal adapts to its new environment quicker and with less stress,I hate to sell older rabbits for breeding,they don't seem to adapt to there new surroundings and the new owners aren't happy either. My rabbits are in a building 52' long,14' wide,10 'tall.Ceiling has 6" insulation,walls have 4" insulation. All around the building both top and bottom are vents to move air,they can be adjusted to control the flow of air,building sets east/west for max. cooling,auto watering,ceiling hung wire cages,each has foot pads and fans to move air,auto bug sprayer,also use a vet.to test herd. Radio on 24 hours,lites auto on 16 hours, handle rabbits every day,more if house training or reading for show,phew,my finger is getting a blister.Join the ARBA if you want to learn a lot about all phases of rabbitry,hope this answers some of your questions.:bunnybutt:


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## CKGS (Jun 14, 2009)

Thank you so very much John. I do appreciate all the breeders who answer this. It sounds like you have an excellent set up John and I commend you for setting boundaries on who you will and won't sell to. That's awesome. And I will check into the ARBA. Thanks.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jun 14, 2009)

> *First question- Do you have criteria in place for whom you will or won't sell your rabbits to? Are there any restrictions set in place that will ensure the rabbits you sell are going to go to a 'good' home? I put good in parenthesis because everyones idea of good varies with each persons personal ideals.*





> I don't have a certain criteria. I DO spend lots of time, either through e-mails or in person, talking to each new owner. Many people appreciate this and ask more questions; they really get into it, which I take as a good sign. Some people are really short with me and generally they don't last because I bug them too much with all my information.Also, I sometimes sell to 4-Hers or breeders I know, so in that way it is easy to know how the rabbits will be treated. I also send a check-up e-mail a few weeks later to make sure all is well.





> *Second question- Are there any questions asked of the potential buyer other than whether they want show potential or pet potential?*





> I ask them if they have ever had a rabbit before. If they have, I just run through the basics of how to acclimate the bunny to their new home. If they haven't, I ask if they have any questions. Good potential owners ask A LOT of questions.





> *Third question- How are your rabbits raised? Are they raised in a home like setting where not much will phase them as they transition to their new home? Are they raised outdoors? Are they handled daily and used to being examined while with you?*





> My rabbits are housed in all-wire cages, which are located in our garage during the winter and screened porch in the summer. Moving is always stressful, but we do the best we can to make them comfortable. My rabbits are not handled daily, but they are touched, petted, etc., as we feed them. So in a sense, they are. But we don't physically pull them out of their cages everyday.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jun 14, 2009)

*CKGS wrote: *


> 1.) They take back any animal they have created if for whatever reason the buyer cannot or simply won't keep it.





> 2.) Breeders who handle their babies daily. I can't think of a reason to not be able to pick them up at least once. Too many rabbits, again IMO, is an excuse- time to cut back and remember why you started breeding. I bet it wasn't to become over run.



1.) Also understand that this is not always possible. Breeders sell rabbits in order to make room for more. Most breeders don't have extra cage space at any random time and therefore cannot promise that they will be able to take it back. I don't think a lifetime guarantee is practical or even expected of reputable breeders. What I DO think is practical is that the breeder will help you to rehome the rabbit, if she cannot physically take it back at the time.

2.) It's really not a good idea to handle rabbits daily. Ours are petted, talked to, and loved on at feeding time. But rabbits can actually be more jumpy and psychotic if they are handled all the time. Breeding/show rabbits are trained so that when they are taken out of the cage, they will sit still for a few minutes, as if they were being evaluated at a show. So letting them run and play is one thing, but when being handled, we want them to be calm and know we are control. So they're not snuggled and huggled all the time.That way, they know that there is a time for play and a time to relax.


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## CKGS (Jun 14, 2009)

Rabbit breeders are just so different from dog breeders. I have a hard time understanding why there is any reason to have so many rabbits that you don't have room to take them back. What if, for instance, you have 2,3,4 litters that don't sell (for whatever reason)? What do you do with those babies you don't have the room for? What happens then when they are old enough and can start breeding with eachother? When brothers impregnate sisters? I am sure this does happen sometimes. How do you all handle these situations if you don't have room to take any back? And by all means it's a great idea to help them rehome the rabbit if they are able to keep it long enough to rehome it. Allergies to a rabbit could be bad for the person who purchased it and severe enough in some cases where the owner has to let it go immediately.


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## bunnybunbunb (Jun 15, 2009)

First question- Do you have criteria in place for whom you will or won't sell your rabbits to? Are there any restrictions set in place that will ensure the rabbits you sell are going to go to a 'good' home? I put good in parenthesis because everyones idea of good varies with each persons personal ideals.

*I have not rehomed a rabbit in a long time. I just recently decided to start back breeding. What I plan on doing is making sure everything is clear. I want to know how they plan to house them, what they are going to feed and how much of what, what do they exactly know about care, what type of personality do they want, do they want to breed, ect. I have set people I will NOT sell too, I do not like them or trust them. I will not sell to them or anyone that associates/is friends with them. Everyone else gets a chance, if I feel they will be good then I will sell to them.*

Second question- Are there any questions asked of the potential buyer other than whether they want show potential or pet potential?

* Pretty much what I said up top I guess. Have they had bunnies, what are they expecting from the rabbit, why do they want a rabbit, ect*

Third question- How are your rabbits raised? Are they raised in a home like setting where not much will phase them as they transition to their new home? Are they raised outdoors? Are they handled daily and used to being examined while with you?

*They are outside in a building. The doors are kept open, except when storming. The farm has lots of dogs and cats all of which go into the building every day. They are use to noise, expecially barking as my cousins' German Shepherd is tied a few feet away.

Babies and juniors are handled everyday. They are brought to the house now and then for play time and interactment with the dogs and cats. The adults are petted everyday and handled often, depending on who it is. Some hate being picked up, others tolerate it. I have yet to find a bunny that liked being held for long. All are examined at least once a week.

All the rabbits get veggies each week, depending on what is going on I try to do it everyday. They all get time out in the grass each week and I have a small maskshift run under the solid bottom kiddling hutches they get time in.*

But rabbits can actually be more jumpy and psychotic if they are handled all the time.

*I disagree. Handling makes them tamer, if when they are taken out good things happen they will beg for it. I am not saying pulling them out 4-5 times a day is good but getting out of the same ole small space at least every other day or so is needed. I am suprised breeder animals do not go insane sitting in the same place week after week.*

How many breeders here feed veggies? I swear, everytime I take in a new rabbit it takes me 5 days to 2 months to get them to even try a vegetable or to eat grass. It makes me so sad


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## Erins Rabbits (Jun 15, 2009)

> First question- Do you have criteria in place for whom you will or won't sell your rabbits to? Are there any restrictions set in place that will ensure the rabbits you sell are going to go to a 'good' home? I put good in parenthesis because everyones idea of good varies with each persons personal ideals.


I don't sell pets to people I don't know personally. I've sold pet bunnies to a few of my parents co-workers, but that's it. Rabbits that aren't quite 'up to par' come with me to a 4-h show. This way- I know that the owners aren't some crazy pet bunny people, and I get to see the new owner, and meet their bunnies. You can see whether it will be taken care of, or not. I also sell at ARBA shows- it's also easy enough. But I won't sell to anyone outside of the established rabbit community. If you own rabbits (Like, If I saw you on this forum, rabbit habbit, or rabbit chat, etc,) and saw that your pet is well kept, and you contacted me for a bunny, I would sell to you, albeit, reluctantly, but I would sell to you. 



> Second question- Are there any questions asked of the potential buyer other than whether they want show potential or pet potential?



I grill people who inquire. Do you have rabbits? Have you ever had a rabbit? Are you interested in showing? Sometimes they'll say something I don't like, and I ask them about that. What do you mean, you want to breed? What breed is your rabbit? Does it have a pedigree? If they want to become a backyard breeder or other such things... I say, I'm sorry, I don't think we have anything that's right for you. And leave it alone. I scare a lot of people away. Again, I don't sell pets. I make that very clear. I don't even want to venture into that part of the rabbit world, so many are frustrated with pet buyers, so many have problems with them. So, I say, if you want a pet, go to the petstore. 


> Third question- How are your rabbits raised? Are they raised in a home like setting where not much will phase them as they transition to their new home? Are they raised outdoors? Are they handled daily and used to being examined while with you?




Mine is an outdoor rabbitry- It's placed under an awning that provides ample protection from the wind, rain, snow, and sun. I go out twice a day- once to water, in the morning, and again to refill water again, and feed. During both these times, I reach in and say hello to every one. Once a week, I pull everyone out and do a thourough health check. This is usually on a Saturday, when I don't have a show. If I have a show, I take care of it on Friday. As a result, my rabbits don't mind being messed with, on a general level. Babies are handled on a daily basis, because I know if I totally leave them alone, aside from petting, for a week, they won't be well socialized at all.


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## CKGS (Jun 15, 2009)

Thanks for your replies Sam. I see you have run into alot of the same issues I have. I also disagree with the handling them too much. Mine get out every day for at least an hour and they play their little hearts out. I think Abby would go crazy if she were kept caged day in and day out. It breaks my heart to know there are others just like her who never see the outside of the bars...


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## CKGS (Jun 15, 2009)

And thank you also Erin. I actually like that you sell to the Rabbit community mostly. That's awesome.


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## Erins Rabbits (Jun 15, 2009)

> 1.) They take back any animal they have created if for whatever reason the buyer cannot or simply won't keep it. This does not always mean money back but in some instances I think money should be given back.



I only take rabbits back if the cage and accesories come with it. It's a lot harder to find a home for a rabbit when the cage isn't included.




> 2.) Breeders who handle their babies daily. I can't think of a reason to not be able to pick them up at least once. Too many rabbits, again IMO, is an excuse- time to cut back and remember why you started breeding. I bet it wasn't to become over run.


I handle Kits daily. Only kits and young juniors. Past that, I agree with OakRidge. I've had kits completely change over the course of a week when I didn't handle them. 


ETA: 


> How many breeders here feed veggies? I swear, everytime I take in a new rabbit it takes me 5 days to 2 months to get them to even try a vegetable or to eat grass. It makes me so sad


I don't feed veggies.... Sometimes they'll get a treat. But I don't feed veggies normally. They retain better condition that way, and it's easier and much less expensive to feed pellets and hay IMO


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## SilverBirchRabbitry (Jun 15, 2009)

*CKGS wrote: *


> I just tried to post this once and am trying again. Sigh.
> 
> Okay Breeders, here goes.
> 
> ...



First Question - Yes I do have a criteria, my definition of good is NOT just feeding and watering the bunny! Well my bunnies will NOT go to homes with children under 7! That is a biggy for me! Also they must, I repeat MUST have proper housing! Also the bunny must get regular attention, and the people have to appear normal! Or it's a no go! I will only sell a rabbit to a person over 18, unless they are accompanied bya parent, (yes I'm 15 but still) I do have friends my age who raise buns but I will sell/give to them without consent because I know them well.

Second Question- I ask where they are located, if I will receive updates, what sex, color and breed they want 7 that kind of thing

Third Question - I examine mine once a week, they live in a big barn outside. I'm out there ALOT, I love to groom & hold my bunnies! So they are very used to people and social interaction!:biggrin2:

We praise you for asking questions lol


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## bunnybunbunb (Jun 15, 2009)

"How many breeders here feed veggies? I swear, everytime I take in a new rabbit it takes me 5 days to 2 months to get them to even try a vegetable or to eat grass. It makes me so sad 


I don't feed veggies.... Sometimes they'll get a treat. But I don't feed veggies normally. They retain better condition that way, and it's easier and much less expensive to feed pellets and hay IMO"

Easier and less expensive is on the lower end of my priority list. I do not know about everywhere else but here I can normally find discount bags of lettuce/kale/ect for $1. Even with 15 rabbits a bag will last as long as it stays fresh if each rabbit gets a few peices each. I always keep organic carrots around for myself and they get them once a week or so. I have a garden so right now all the lettuce,mustard greens and collard greens and other stuff(soon) come from it.

I remember how my rabbits did before when I fed only pellets and hay, from then to now it is a big change. I give fresh hay and water of the morning which is normally when I give the veggies and grass time. Come evening they get whatever their set amount of pellets is, with wheat germ oil if that rabbit is currently on it. My rabbits are doing better now with a wider diet than they did before.

You do what you find best but just pellets and hay seems sad :/


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## polly (Jun 15, 2009)

Thanks I am glad you like the way I have and keep my bunnies  I had pet rabbits for around 6 years before I started breeding.

I agree very much with John in that when we have got older does from breeders a lot of time we have problems with them getting pregnant/kindling.

And I disagree on a couple of things I think when a rabbit is not handled well then they can be a lot more tempremental and think handling is paramount to a healthy happy rabbit witha good personality. If I feel one of mine is getting a bit fighty when they start to get hormonal they are handled more and they are fine. They do know the difference between being brought out to sit and being brought out for a cuddle and I can think of at least 5 rabbits off the top of my head that will give kisses as in actual licks.

I also do feed veg but mainly to my does and house rabbits. All my bevs get veg but some of my bucks dont as they do not seem to do well with it. 

I have around 40 rabbits at the moment and I could tell u all their names attributes and how they like to be handled in my mind that helps to make a good breeder not just checking they are ok and not just getting them out to pose them.


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## CKGS (Jun 15, 2009)

I love you Polly! These are the very things I was getting at. Being a breeder (of any animal) needs to be so much more than throwing a male and female together and letting nature take its course. A responsible breeder that is.


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## irishbunny (Jun 15, 2009)

I think Polly is a breeder everyone should look up, she treats her rabbits with love and respect.


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## tori (Jun 15, 2009)

Wow a lot of people have posted since I last checked lol

Yes Janet, I have also learned that rabbit breeding is extremely different from dog breeding. But you should also be aware that your GSD breeder is about one in a million. While most responsible breeders will try to take a dog they bred back, the extent he went to is extremely rare and I don't know that I have ever heard of a breeder doing all that. But it is also not always possible for even a responsible dog breeder to take a dog back. They will almost guaranteed try to help you rehome it, but its also not always possible for them to take the dog back even if they would like to.

Now it has been several years since I have owned rabbits, which is why I am researching again. But I have read that they need a lot of time devoted to getting out of their cage each day. One site even said a minimum of 4 hours each day to get out and run around! It sounds like most of you breeders don't go by that, but maybe take them out at most every other day. Firstly, how big are your enclosures? And second, would you expect a new owner to take their new rabbit out that often even if you don't?

I am loving this discussion and hope its okay for me to introduce some new questions!

Tori


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## bunnybunbunb (Jun 15, 2009)

"Firstly, how big are your enclosures? And second, would you expect a new owner to take their new rabbit out that often even if you don't?"

Enclosures as in the free time ones? I have a small 2' x 2' cage for the babies to play in in the grass at the moment, a bigger one is in the works. I then have a 6' x 4' wire cage for the adults(the wire is to big for babies) for in the grass. The run in the building is 6 ' x whatever I make it, 1 to 3 foot depending on how much room I need at that moment.

Do I expect the pet owners to get them out a few hours a day? Yes, with a low number it is not hard to. Would I expect a breeder to get them out every day for hours? No, however I would expect them to get free time a few times a week.

A few of my bunnies have large cages, 3' long by 2', 6' long by 2', 2' 1/2' by 2', ect and so I try to let the ones in the adverage size cages (2' x 2') out more often in the play pens.

Everyone has toys which are switched around periodicly. I make and sell toys so I have diffrent styles as well as eggs, jingle balls, baby toys, ect.


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## irishbunny (Jun 15, 2009)

I asked a question about breeders letting their rabbits out for playtime and the majority don't let their rabbits out at all.


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## CKGS (Jun 15, 2009)

And that is the sad part Gracie. And Tori feel free to post any questions you can think of here. I know I miss some and would love to hear answers to any and all questions. 
Next question from me- Why have so many rabbits that you can't possibly care for them they way you wish your buyers would? Isn't that a double standard? Shouldn't you as a breeder who cares for the animals they breed be setting the example for novice owners?


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## bunnybunbunb (Jun 15, 2009)

"Why have so many rabbits that you can't possibly care for them they way you wish your buyers would? Isn't that a double standard? Shouldn't you as a breeder who cares for the animals they breed be setting the example for novice owners?"

9 of my 15 rabbits are strickly pets so to have 6 breeder rabbits is not bad at all. I do wish to do better for them but one must understand that I have more than rabbits. If I just had rabbits it would be simple to give them all loads of free time but I have dogs, cats, hamsters, fish and a chicken. I take in rescues a lot and my time is very split. It might be a double standard but I believe most of us wish there was more time for them all.

To breed you need more than 2-3 of that breed to better it. Now, you do not need 50 rabbits but you do have to grow litters. You have a few bucks and does of each breed to be able to do anything proper. If I did not have so many rescue/pet bunnies I would be able to give everyone free time everyday.


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## CKGS (Jun 15, 2009)

So why not choose one breed to 'better'? Why not focus on that one breed and do the best you can for the rabbits in your care and the breed and also help with rescues. Btw I commend you for working with rescues also. 
That's another thing I may be the only one who believes this but I believe if you breed any animal you should try to help out with rescue animals also. After all it is true that for every litter bred- another loses a home or dies. Giving back is a good idea in my book anyday!:thumbup


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## bunnybunbunb (Jun 15, 2009)

"So why not choose one breed to 'better'? Why not focus on that one breed and do the best you can for the rabbits in your care and the breed and also help with rescues. Btw I commend you for working with rescues also."

Many people do stick to one breed but from what I have saw it is mostly Lionhead breeders, haha. I want two breeds because... well I do. I love Hollland Lops and have always wanted to do Dutch and so I picked two. What is the diffrents in me having 10 breeders, 5 of each breed, and someone that has one breed having 10 breeders of that breed? Nothing.


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## CKGS (Jun 15, 2009)

That wasn't what I was saying at all. And was not directed at you, just so everyone knows that. What I am talking about is breeders who have so many that they can't ever give the rabbits fun time. You sound like you do as good a job of that as possible. I guess I am done here. Thanks for the responses guys.


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## bunnybunbunb (Jun 15, 2009)

No, don't be done  I like this 

I was just answering the question, I know it wasn't directed at me.


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## CKGS (Jun 15, 2009)

Okay Samantha. I just wanted to make sure I am not upsetting anyone because apparently I have some and feel maybe this thread should end. Some seem to not be so happy about too many questions. I did not meant to cause upset. For those who answered and weren't upset by any comments I made- Thank you. For those who have been offended or upset I am sorry. That was not my point. My point was to find out answers and to see breeders exchange ideas about ways to better eachothers' rabbitry. It was an openminded exchange and nothing more but I do have opinions and I will not compromise myself or my ideals and bend to make them like anyone elses. So I am sorry for any I have angered. Stepping on toes was not my idea at the start of this thread.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jun 16, 2009)

Ah, I missed a lot of responses! I'll try to cover my opinions here on everyone's comments:

*Rabbit breeders are just so different from dog breeders. I have a hard time understanding why there is any reason to have so many rabbits that you don't have room to take them back.*

I'm not sure what is hard to understand about that. As we all know, rabbits can live on the upper side of 7-10 years. Breeders don't always have the room to take them back at the drop of a hat. It's just that simple.

Beyond that, I am very careful of who I introduce back into my herd for health and safety reasons. I don't always have room to isolate a rabbit for 4-6 weeks to make sure he hasn't picked up something at the new owner's house. Taking a rabbit back isn't at all as easy as sticking a cage back in the barn, ya know?

*What if, for instance, you have 2,3,4 litters that don't sell (for whatever reason)?*

I'd keep them and care for them of course!

*What do you do with those babies you don't have the room for?*

I sell them. If there is no demand, they stay until there is some.

*What happens then when they are old enough and can start breeding with eachother?*

They must be separated into separate cages.

*When brothers impregnate sisters? I am sure this does happen sometimes.*

Um, no, this NEVER happens in my rabbitry. Reputable breeders don't indiscriminantly, irresponsibly, throw rabbits in cages and let them breed.:shock:

*I disagree. Handling makes them tamer, if when they are taken out good things happen they will beg for it. I am not saying pulling them out 4-5 times a day is good but getting out of the same ole small space at least every other day or so is needed. I am suprised breeder animals do not go insane sitting in the same place week after week.*

No way. From personal experience, if the rabbits are physically picked up daily they get more jumpy and excited about leaving the cage. This is not what you want in a show rabbit. Excessive handling ruins them, hands down. This doesn't mean my rabbits sit ina tiny shoebox their entire lives. But there IS such a thing as too much handling. I have found that it is much better to touch, pet, stroke, kiss, etc. the bunnies on the floor than to lift them and carry them regularly.

*How many breeders here feed veggies? I swear, everytime I take in a new rabbit it takes me 5 days to 2 months to get them to even try a vegetable or to eat grass. It makes me so sad* 

Veggies are a HUGE no-no in my rabbitry. The rabbits lose condition rapidly when on veggie diets, andso many people who feed veggie diets seem to have serious digestive issues in their rabbits. To the point where some are giving simethicone drops DAILY. I have never, in 10 years of breeding, had a single digestive upset. Not a single one. I feed a nutritionally balanced pellet, a pinch of rolled oats, and a handful of timothy hay daily.

*Being a breeder (of any animal) needs to be so much more than throwing a male and female together and letting nature take its course. A responsible breeder that is.*

I think it's very sad that this is the impression people have of breeders. Exactly why I WANT people to see my rabbitry. So very few people are this ignorant and irresponsible that the numbers are hardly worth a second look. A large majority of breeders are so far beyond "throwing a male and female together" that this statement just blows my mind.:twitch:

*Why have so many rabbits that you can't possibly care for them they way you wish your buyers would?*

Who does this? Seriously?I take care of my rabbits the same way as I would, whether I have 1 or 394.The day I can't care for them is the day they leave. I set an example for my buyers, not lecture them not to do whatI do.:?

*That's another thing I may be the only one who believes this but I believe if you breed any animal you should try to help out with rescue animals also. After all it is true that for every litter bred- another loses a home or dies.*

Um, sorry. But personally, I know that pet overpopulation is not the fault of reputable breeders, so I don't feel the least bit wrong about breeding. Overpopulation is the result of careless pet owners andignorant backyard breeders. Period. Line drawn. Shelters cannot at all be traced back to those who are putting love, time, and exceptional care into their animals.


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## Erins Rabbits (Jun 16, 2009)

Kudos, OakRidge. I completely agree with everything in the above post.


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## Happi Bun (Jun 16, 2009)

I'm finding this thread very educating and amusing. Great reading for an otherwise boring night. I have no problem with reputable breeders. Sadly, I have yet to meet one personally. I think it's wonderful these questions are being asked.

:bunny24


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Jun 16, 2009)

*bunnybunbunb wrote: *


> How many breeders here feed veggies? I swear, everytime I take in a new rabbit it takes me 5 days to 2 months to get them to even try a vegetable or to eat grass. It makes me so sad



I feed veggies/fruits and greens to my bunners. If not daily, at least weekly.

I also disagree, OakRidge, about handling rabbits. Ithink that if you handle thema lot then they will not be jumpy or spooky. My mini rex babies right now are spooky/jumpy because we don't handle them alot. We hold them each day, butnot enough. I'm sure once we hold them more, they will warm up and be muchmore friendly and less jumpy.

Also,I handle myfitting& showing rabbits alot, because they have to be used tothe manueverswe do, and they can't freak out.We're judged on how we handle our rabbits, and we should be able to control them.You achieve this control by working with them and getting them used to be handled. 

Yes, while they do get excited to leave/return to their cage, handling makes them more friendlier, more happy, and less spooky/jumpy while you're handling them. If you hold your rabbit in the football hold and turn around so they enter their cage under your arm, it makes for a less excited return.  

*Irishbunny wrote:*



> I asked a question about breeders letting their rabbits out for playtime and the majority don't let their rabbits out at all.


I let all my rabbits out for playtime, if not daily, at least weekly. In the summer it's more often, because I have more time. I also let the babies run in an outdoor pen, not as large as their cage, but they still get to go outside for fresh air and new sights. Sometimes I'll put them in with mom, but they can't stay in for too long cuz they just want to nibble grass  

I pay a lot of attention to my rabbits definitely at feeding time and when they're outside playing. Also, when rabbits escape from their pens outdoors, or cause trouble *cough*Sippi*cough, and they come inside, they get one-on-one time with me and my sister, because we talk to them, and interact. We interact with the bunnies when we are feeding, cleaning, etc. And they all will come to the front of their cage, even the babies, to get talked to, get a treat or get pets.

*OakRidgeRabbitry wrote: *


> so many people who feed veggie diets seem to have serious digestive issues in their rabbits


Yikes! That really shocked me.....because that's definitely not what I've heard  Veggies are extremely good for rabbits; they provide lots of nutrients that they need. Also, veggies aren't just the only reason why rabbits lose conidition. I don't feed veggies that often, and some of my rabbits are always in awful condition - maybe it's because I don't know how to condition them properly, or all the ways I've tried have failed. I think veggies are an important part of a rabbits diet though. 


> That's another thing I may be the only one who believes this but I believe if you breed any animal you should try to help out with rescue animals also. After all it is true that for every litter bred- another loses a home or dies.


The thing for this is, many breeders don't have the room for rescue animals because they have their breeding animals. If I could, I would have a few fosters, but I just don't have the space. I have extra cages, yeah, but that's for new rabbits/litters, etc. True that you don't have to foster/adopt, you can volunteer, but, once again, many breeders don't have the time to even volunteer because they're busy with their own rabbits.  

Emily


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## CKGS (Jun 16, 2009)

Thanks for all the replies. OakRidge, That was a good point about introducing rabbits into your stock that could possibly be carrying something. Please do remember I am learning as I go. As far as breeders just throwing animals together to make a quick buck-we can agree to disagree.
 
When I said not being able to care for your personal buns the way that buyers are expected- this was NOT directed at anyone. This was a topic I have seen many times in breeders of animals in general. 
Suggesting helping out rescue animals does not necessarily mean housing them- you can help out in sooo many waya. With money, time,and/or needs donations. 
Again thanks for your time and attention to the questions.


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## polly (Jun 16, 2009)

I think this is a great thread to try and educate non breeders/ pet owners to how good breeders take care of their rabbits!

I will try and post you a thread later on my sheds. I know some people did comment on the size of my hutches but when yousee full grown nethies in them you can clearly see they have plenty of space  

I do still work on the 5 freedoms we have over here for our newish pet laws.

I will tell you I have rabbits who have come from other breeders that are not happy when they are out and do not understand playtime! however a run in the garden soon remedies that  and they remeber first and foremost they are rabbits.

I dont find any of my rabbits jumpy from getting to play and they do know the difference between playtime and show time. I have one in particular JIn whp is a showbun through and through however he is also very very cheeky and loves a run around!



I also understand that people may get rabbits and for the first month or 2 they get loads of attention then it peters off so I try to recomend pairs of perhaps a slightly older rabbit who can be dressed and a younger one. 

I will try and address this thread a bit more later right now I have to go sort out my sheds and my shop lol


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## whaleyk98 (Jun 16, 2009)

Isnt this the Rabbitry section? Why do I see this topic taking a slight turn towards a breeder bash fest? You know, us as breeders do what is best and what we think is right to take the best possible care of our animals. I will leave it at that. :apollo:


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## Starlight Rabbitry (Jun 16, 2009)

*CKGS wrote: *


> As far as breeders just throwing animals together to make a quick buck-we can agree to disagree.



This is exactly the definition of a Backyard Breeder. 

A Responsible Breeder uses good judgment when picking a buck and a doe to breed. Most breeders have astandard and they breed to meet that standard. Some are breeding for better type, others for better heads, markings, or whatever they feel their rabbits are lacking. 

They breed to better the breed. I, for one, breed Dutch to better the Dutch around here. Not that they are bad, but I notice things and try to breed for the better. For example, if I am getting beaten on the show table because my rabbits lack round heads, I will try to bring in animals with better heads to breed to my own stock to try to better my heads.

Hopefully that makes sense. Every RESPONSIBLE breeder, breeds to better their breed.

Sharon


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jun 16, 2009)

I agree, Starlight.

Very, very, very few people are "throwing rabbits together to make a quick buck". Again, these people are ignorant, irresponsible, and should not even be classified as "breeders". These are irresponsible pet owners- people who are so uneducated that they can't even make rational breeding decisions.

I can also say, from personal experience, that reputable show breeders make NO MONEY AT ALL. I can't emphasize that enough. Breeding rabbits is a hobby, it's not a business. Any money that comes off the sale of rabbits goes straight back into food, cages, and supplies for the remaining herd. Most breeders are lucky if the rabbits pay for themselves, most of us end up spending money to keep them more than being reimbursed.

One might say, then why don't you just give away the rabbits? Again, the sale of rabbits helps us maintain the others. But it also guarantees better buyers. Generally, a buyer who is willing to pay $50 for a purebred, pedigreed rabbit is someone who has researched the breed and is making a serious commitment to own a pet. As opposed to a random pet owner who might go out and pay $5 for any old rabbit on impulse.

This being said, I just can't agree to disagree on such a statement. It is very offensive and demeaning, as a responsible breeder, when uneducated people make assumptions and do not take into consideration the truth presented to them by a real breeder. Too many people go off the deep end with false information about breeders, given to them by supposedly reputable groups, like the HRS. I don't blame pet owners for having this impression at all, but when this many reputable breeders tell you otherwise, I am still concerned about where the confusion may lie.

Might I also make one last point- reputable breeders do not support irresponssible pet owners (or in your terms "breeders") who are so lax about their breeding practices. I would never buy from one of these people or support their rabbitry simply because they're not producing quality stock that I can use in my herd. So again, who's fault is it that these people exist and continue? More irresponsible pet owners who buy from them.

Reputable breeders are SO far out of the loop from BYB/Bunny mill people...so, so far. There is no relationship at all there and it's two totally different worlds.

I hope I didn't offend anyone by this statment, but I feel very strongly about this topic and truly wish to educate those who only see it from the other side.


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## aurora369 (Jun 16, 2009)

I am not a breeder, however I have been on this forum long enough to understand what our good breeders are striving for and the reasons behind what they do.

I think that this thread, and the other thread about Rabbitry visitors, is providing an excellent opportunity for responsible breeders to explain what makes them different from a BYB. The only way for people to learn, is to have the information presented to them.

By having examples of responsible breeders explaining their methods on this forum when I first joined, I learned how irresponsible I was being with my own rabbits. With out the presentation of facts, how is any one to learn?

I personally think that if this thread an be kept cool headed, then many people will learn alot. If people get defensive and rude, then no one will learn anything. Asking questions is a normal part of human nature. We desire to understand what we don't know, and have a need to understand why and not just take things at face value.

The best kind of education, is a calm presententation of facts, with solid reasons behind them. The only way to combat mis-education (in my opinion) is to provide information in a calm and non-judgemental way. Those interested in learning will learn, those not interested where a lost cause to begin with and not worth the effort.

I enjoy hearing our breeders explain why they do what they do. How they pick rabbits, why they have the sales policies that they do, why they do or do not let visitors in their barns. They all have valid reasons, and once explained, makes a lot of sense. 

--Dawn


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## CKGS (Jun 16, 2009)

Again I did NOT at any time say any of you are BYBs. Read my posts please again and try doing it without these thoughts already in your head. What I have said repeatedly is that it does happen. If you don't believe that or see that as fact, I am sorry. I agree that uneducated people support them and make it possible for them to continue to breed. What I am trying to give to others and myself in the process is this and some seem to miss the point: This thread gives people examples of what good breeders do and how they raise their rabbits. Showing the difference between the two. 
Is there something wrong with wanting to ask questions? Is there something wrong with learning? Usually defensiveness means there is something wrong and one doesn't like being asked these questions. If you don't want to post replies- don't. This is your freedom. I had thought I had the right to ask questions and not be told I was bashing. Now who here is actually doing the bashing. This ia an adult discussion.... But I'm about done with it because it seems it is getting farther away from that. 
BTW Thanks again Polly. I love hearing from you and other breeders who aren't angered by questions and answer them pleasantly.


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## TinysMom (Jun 16, 2009)

*OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *


> This being said, I just can't agree to disagree on such a statement. It is very offensive and demeaning, as a responsible breeder, when uneducated people make assumptions and do not take into consideration the truth presented to them by a real breeder. Too many people go off the deep end with false information about breeders, given to them by supposedly reputable groups, like the HRS. I don't blame pet owners for having this impression at all, but when this many reputable breeders tell you otherwise, I am still concerned about where the confusion may lie.


I've been on this forum for years and have absolutely loved it and learned a lot. I've been following this discussion and trying to decide whether to post in it or not.

One of the reasons this forum has worked so well for so many years is an unspoken attitude we try to have ... which is that there are times that we do just "agree to disagree". We have folks on the forum who absolutely hate breeders - yet we have a forum that welcomes breeders. Why? Because we welcome people of all beliefs and so we support both responsible breeders and rescues...

There is a statement that I love and remind myself of whenever I get upset. It goes like this...."Opinions are like feet...we all have them...and some stink." I always hate it when I come to realize that my opinions might be the stinky ones...its always easier for me to want to point to others and say their opinions stink.

I think this thread is fascinating and if I didn't have to get out the door to get back to work - I'd post my thoughts on some of the questions....I'll try to do that when I get back home.

Thanks to the original poster for starting this thread - it really has been interesting to read what everyone has to say. Its amazing to see how different we can be in some ways - and yet maybe alike in others.


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## TinysMom (Jun 16, 2009)

*CKGS wrote: *


> Again I did NOT at any time say any of you are BYBs. Read my posts please again and try doing it without these thoughts already in your head. What I have said repeatedly is that it does happen. If you don't believe that or see that as fact, I am sorry. I agree that uneducated people support them and make it possible for them to continue to breed. What I am trying to give to others and myself in the process is this and some seem to miss the point: This thread gives people examples of what good breeders do and how they raise their rabbits. Showing the difference between the two.
> Is there something wrong with wanting to ask questions? Is there something wrong with learning? Usually defensiveness means there is something wrong and one doesn't like being asked these questions. If you don't want to post replies- don't. This is your freedom.* I had thought I had the right to ask questions and not be told I was bashing. Now who here is actually doing the bashing.* This ia an adult discussion.... But I'm about done with it because it seems it is getting farther away from that.
> BTW Thanks again Polly. I love hearing from you and other breeders who aren't angered by questions and answer them pleasantly.


I wanted to say that you are right - you do have the right to ask questions, etc. 

If you're being told you're bashing in PMs or something - or if people are harassing you privately - you can always forward the pms to a moderator and ask for help in dealing with the situation.


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## CKGS (Jun 16, 2009)

Thanks so much Peg. I look forward to hearing your answers as well. 
I have been excited to hear/see the answers to these questions and to have a healthy debate about practices everyone uses/doesn't use and maybe enlighten everyone- non breeders and breeders alike. Healthy discussion can benefit everyone.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jun 16, 2009)

This post has very quickly turned into bashing breeders, rather than an honest question/answer session. (For example, "When brothers impregnate sisters? I am sure this does happen sometimes." or "Why have so many rabbits that you can't possibly care for them they way you wish your buyers would?")

If one did not feel that the breeders on this forum were operating in this way, the questions would not be posed. Like others on this forum, none of us (us being reputable breeders) have answers to these questions other than- you are sadly misinformed and no, this never happens. Because we never see such irresponsible operation in our rabbitries.

Feel more than free to contact some BYB's and ask them why they operate as they do. They will certainly have answers to those questions for you. But posting them here certainly does imply that one believes that people here are practicing in this way. I think I speak for everyone in saying that we are more than happy to answer questions. But not to be put down by blanket statements.

It's kind of like asking a seasoned chef why your grandma fries fish instead of bakes it. It just doesn't make sense because the chef has nothing to do with grandma.


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## CKGS (Jun 16, 2009)

Alright, fine then. Take it as you want to. I have tried to apologize for offending anyone and apparently can't satisfy so continue on as before and act like I never interrupted.


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## irishbunny (Jun 16, 2009)

I really like discussions like this, as long as they don't turn ugly with breeder/pet owner bashing and everyone is aloud to give their opinion. My personal preference is to rabbitrys that treat their rabbits almost as pets, they pet them they give them treats, toys, veggies and let them get playtime because to me, a show/breeding rabbit and a pet rabbit are the same inside. I do want to breed rabbits when I'm older, would be doing it now if I had enough space. I really admire the practices Blue Sky Acre's Rabbitry and Cinnabun Stud, they would be rabbitrys I would aspire to be like.


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## Happi Bun (Jun 16, 2009)

I'm not seeing any bashing of responsible breeders going on. These are good questions being asked and I for one am enjoying learning the answers from various breeders.


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## tori (Jun 16, 2009)

I also enjoy healthy debate. And as Gracie said, I think show/breeding rabbits and pet rabbits are one in the same. When I eventually breed I want mine to also be my pets.

But I do have a question as I am very, very confused now. I have heard that vegetables aid in digestion, that they should be fed fresh and wet because it moistens food in the digestive tract and makes it easier to digest. This is also rather easy to believe because, along with hay, it is roughage, and after all what do rabbits and deer (who I believe they are related to) eat in the wild?
But then also some have said that vegetables actually mess up the digestive tract and don't keep the rabbits conditioned. If this is true does anyone possibly know why this happens, not just that it does? Now I know each rabbit has its individual needs but I am really divided on which to believe as I only want to provide the best for my rabbits...


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## polly (Jun 16, 2009)

Ok lets blast a few things here. Of course you have the right to ask questions and of course it is up to us as breeders to answer if we wish to 

I am seeing both points of view here and would prefer to encourage the questions especially from people who have a probelm with breeders because they could sure learn a thing or 2 and I have had serious fall outs with ignorant people who class all breeders in one basket to be honest it sickens me when they see only their way that we are all bad.

As oakridge and starlight and I am sure others have said we breed to better the breed.

Now playtime here is why show rabbits do not generally get play time and I will stand up and say my show bucks do not get playtime when there are a lot of shows on. they may get playtime if we get a good show break. My does do get run out time when I am home and my beverens. My house rabbits get playtime in the house after the babies.

reason1 - they have to be spotless clean you go get your rabbit who has played in the garden digging etc and clean their feet till they are spotless then get anywhwere they have peed on theirselves and get any tugs out thats what we have to put our rabbits up on the table when showing. Its part of their presentation if you put a dirty rabbit up then they will be marked down for it. You may not agree with it I am not sure how much I agree with it tbh but thats how it is!

reason 2 well for my nethies anyway to much playtime runs their shoulders off now a nethie is like the staffie bull of teh rabbit world type is all and they have to have wide shoulders so running round nuts isnt all that great for them

thats my reasons I m sure other breeders will add to it 

Brother to sister well now I cant remember who but this can be done for quite a few generations before problems occur BUT! considering rabbits generally tend to be line bred then they may already be closely related so you increase the chance of problems you are passing onto someone. Good breeders understand why they are breeding who to who not ony for improvement but also so they know their line they work with. It is usual that people will mate father to daugther or mother to son if they want to improve a line. Pamnock has a fab website that will explain it for you more.

Bad breeders would not explain their practice to you they breed for money and to do that they will continually keep their does bred as in have a litter give them 4 weeks and then remate or even worse remate straight after kindling OR they will mate have a litter foster it over to another doe and breed it up again.

You will never catch a good breeder doing that we understand teh strain it puts on our animals a doe is no good worn out your babies will not be so healthy in which case you either couldnt show them or you could but it would get put around other breeders that you are not taking care of your rabbits.



There is no point getting annoyed over it in reality its only good show breeders that can change the outlook yes it really p***s you off because people think thats how you treat your animals also people judge you without finding out their facts.

Oakridge puts forward a good point responsible breeders are not causing an overpopulation problem BYB and rabbit farms are also so are the pet stores that sell them and the people who buy them!

Now for the crux of it you see a lot of rabbits out there with health problems in fact my Nibbler who I lost last tuesday was one of them which is why he was neutered and lived in the house. he was from a breeder who did not breed for show and did not vet his rabbits I had 3 rabbits from him as pets nice man without a clue all 3 had problems mainly malocclusion. not the only time i have seen it its a big problem in a lot of nethies when attention is not payed. Here is teh difference if I have a litter that shows malocclusion the parents are not bred again any babies with problems are not sold. Thats being responsible rather than passing on huge vet bills and other problems down the line.

now another thing what about all teh pet owners out there who get rabbits from breeders like that and dont think about it and whoopsd have an accidental litter then they pass on problems to other pet owners hmmmm just a little something for people to think about 

sorry for long post lol


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## polly (Jun 16, 2009)

*tori wrote: *


> I also enjoy healthy debate. And as Gracie said, I think show/breeding rabbits and pet rabbits are one in the same. When I eventually breed I want mine to also be my pets.
> 
> But I do have a question as I am very, very confused now. I have heard that vegetables aid in digestion, that they should be fed fresh and wet because it moistens food in the digestive tract and makes it easier to digest. This is also rather easy to believe because, along with hay, it is roughage, and after all what do rabbits and deer (who I believe they are related to) eat in the wild?
> But then also some have said that vegetables actually mess up the digestive tract and don't keep the rabbits conditioned. If this is true does anyone possibly know why this happens, not just that it does? Now I know each rabbit has its individual needs but I am really divided on which to believe as I only want to provide the best for my rabbits...



my advice would be everything in moderation  if you get them used to a good hay with soem pellets to make sure they have all the nutrients they need and soem veg it usually works out well 

all rabbits are different as are all breeds so what can work for one may not work so well for others  my beverend get a lot more veg than my nethies but then my bevs are 9lbs and my nethies are 2.5 lbs my dutch loves veg some of my nethies turn their nose up at it soem love it it all depends and imo they are better with it if given from day one. I give my does it so my babies are used to it saves weaning them onto it they get a little nibble at their mums


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jun 16, 2009)

*tori wrote: *


> But I do have a question as I am very, very confused now. I have heard that vegetables aid in digestion, that they should be fed fresh and wet because it moistens food in the digestive tract and makes it easier to digest. This is also rather easy to believe because, along with hay, it is roughage, and after all what do rabbits and deer (who I believe they are related to) eat in the wild?
> But then also some have said that vegetables actually mess up the digestive tract and don't keep the rabbits conditioned. If this is true does anyone possibly know why this happens, not just that it does? Now I know each rabbit has its individual needs but I am really divided on which to believe as I only want to provide the best for my rabbits...



Tori, I just want to point out that there is no fact or fiction in this case. The veggie debate is a large one, and the following information is my opinion and experience only. This varies from person to person.

Since the beginning of domestication, people have been developing rabbit pellets. Initially, rabbits were not kept as pets. They were kept as livestock. When working with livestock, you want the animals to grow to harvesting weight as soon as possible. By getting them out asap, you're maximizing cage space and minimizing costs to keep each individual rabbit. So rabbit pellets were originally developed for rapid weight gain and conditioning on meat rabbits.

Some time later, rabbits started becoming popular pets. At this time, rabbit pellet companies started modifying their pellets. Obviously, pet rabbits do not need the fat and protein content in growth formulas just for regular weight maintenance. So the new pet feeds were lighter on fat and protein content.

Long story short, you can now find pellets formulated for all different stages of rabbit life. You can still find pellets for fast growth of market rabbits, but you can also find pellets specifically made for dry bucks and does, lactating and pregnant does, young rabbits, old rabbits, pet rabbits, etc. Some people have been trained through the "rabbit media" to believe that pellets are bad because they were originally made for the quick development of meat rabbits. But times change, pellets change, and that is no longer even debatable- pellets are made for all different types and stages of rabbit growth and maintenance!

Now- back to veggies.

Many pet owners these days swear by veggie supplements, or even more extreme- all veggie diets. The interesting thing is, I have asked on multiple forums for someone who has their rabbits on the all-veggie diet to explain to me _exactly_ what they are feeding. I don't mean kale, parsley, and carrots. I mean, *why* are you feeding those? How do they benefit the rabbit? What is the protein, fat, and fiber content that your rabbit is eating daily? So far, not one single person has been able to answer this question for me.

This being said, take a guess why I don't support veggie diets.

To tie it all together-

Breeders don't feed pellets simply to fatten them up or because it's cheaper. They do it because show and breeding rabbits need very specific amounts of protein, fat, and fiber in their diet. Not only to keep them healthy and conditioned, but also to keep them fertile and actively breeding and producing. If we could see these same results using a veggie diet, many breeders may do that. But since we can't, the pellets are the only way for us to feed our rabbits what they need and maintain our breeding herds.

Now, I don't have a problem with pet people supplementing veggies here and there or anything. Rabbits were meant to eat roughage. But in the wild, rabbits have the natural instinct to find and eat what they need in the amount they need it in. It's programmed into them. Domesticated rabbits can't do that. They rely on us to feed them. So, because we don't know exactly how to properly feed veggies, I never reccommend all-veggie diets, even to pet owners. I suggest that all rabbits get some amount of pellets daily, just to maintain all the vitamins and minerals necessary to them.

I'm sorry this is turning into a novel, but just some more information-

Young, weaning-age rabbits are very susceptible to enteritis and other digestive upset. This can be easily brought on by feeding greens. Why? I don't know exactly. But I do know, from experience, that a dry diet full of lots of fiber works well for them. So that's what I use.

It is also true that adult rabbits can easily lose condition when most of their pellet diet is exchanged for veggies. Why? Because again, none of us are really exactly sure how to properly feed veggies.

I've just heard of too many people having digestive issues, and even deaths, from nearly all-veggie diets. So I will never go that route myself only because I've found something better that works for me. Does that mean giving your rabbits an occasional piece of parsley will harm them? No. It's just not my overall diet of choice.

*whew* That's kind of all over the place. But I hope it helped you understand a little more why I prefer pellets. And of course,I do supplement with grass hay daily as well for extra fiber.


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## NorthernAutumn (Jun 16, 2009)

^^^ Thanks for that very thorough post, OakRidge.
I've been following this thread and other veg-hay debates, and this explanation seems to suit the current climate. I can see the value in knowing the exact nutritional values and how a pelletized diet, with hay and veg can be manipulated to generate the best possible health for a group of rabbits.


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## bunnybunbunb (Jun 16, 2009)

You do not give veggie treat because an all veggie diet causes stomache problems sometimes, or did I read that wrong?

My rabbit vet said she sees so many rabbits with messed up teeth and body condition problems due to all pellet diets. First words out of her mouth to me after examining Mousse was "She is very healthy, what do you feed her? No fruit, right?", haha. She was all "push that hay!"  She was very nice.

I give them loads of hay but I have a few that does not like eating it. Pellet addicts.


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## tori (Jun 16, 2009)

Thank you for that very informative post, OakRidge  Come to think of it, you're right, we don't really know all the nutritional values of vegetables, while I can actually see what is in the pellets. That does offer some comfort, knowing exactly what it is you are feeding them. I fed my old rabbits a pet formula of pellets like you mentioned and I plan feeding pellets to my future rabbits as well. I never really planned on an all-veggie diet. So as Polly said, I think moderation is key. I will give pellets and supplement with hay and just see what works. Thanks again!


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jun 16, 2009)

*bunnybunbunb wrote: *


> My rabbit vet said she sees so many rabbits with messed up teeth and body condition problems due to all pellet diets.


Well, I should have also pointed out that not all pellets are created equal.You must be a knowledgable bunny parent (breeder, pet, show, whatever) in order to choose a healthy, well-balanced diet. For example, I look for around 16% protein, 3% fat, and at least 15% or so fiber (since I feed hay, fiber content in the pellets isn't so much a concern). That doesn't mean that every pellet that meets these conditions will work for my rabbits. I've gone through a bit of trial and error before finding a pellet that my rabbits really thrived on.

Not everyone in the pet world (in fact, very few people) know how to correctly balance their rabbits' diet, whether it's using pellets _or_ veggies. These are the rabbits that most vets see, since most breeders are even more knowledgable than a majority of rabbit savvy vets and treat their animals on their own. So your vet probably sees the worst of the worst in general. I'm not saying that any of these people are even bad pet owners, just that it's not uncommon to be blindly feeding something that's not necessarily helping, ya know? Just from inexperence or not really knowing what to look for. Breeders, on the other hand, can judge the effectiveness of a diet based on an entire herd of rabbits. So that's quite a benefit in that sense, but is helpful overall to pet owners too, to have that information.

So although I don't like to put a blanket statement on pellet diets OR veggie diets, it is my experience that rabbits do better on pellets, generally speaking. And of course, that depends on feeding the right pellet too, not just any random pellet. Kinda make sense now? lol Tried to explain anyway.h34r2And again, I don't like all pellet diets either, my rabbits also get hay daily. Some people only give pellets, but I just haven't found a pellet that contains a satisfactory amount of fiber for my rabbits.


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## bunnybunbunb (Jun 16, 2009)

"And again, I don't like all pellet diets either, my rabbits also get hay daily. Some people only give pellets, but I just haven't found a pellet that contains a satisfactory amount of fiber for my rabbits."

In the begining I did all pellets and my rabbits had horrible condition. They rabbits are grazers which is the problem with all pellet diets. At one point I was feeding upwards of a cup of pellets to 4 lbs rabbits and they where still thin. It was because they where eating all there food in a few hours time and starving the rest. That is why hay is a must.

I give hay in the morning and then roughly half a cup of pellets(some of them only eat half that) and more hay of the night. I have great pellets so the bunnies are doing very well. I was feeding Purina and had horrible trouble, it was the only pellet around, and then tractor supply moved in and a breeder and I keep them bought out on the Manna Pro SHO.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jun 16, 2009)

Wow, they definitely shouldn't need a cup for a 4 lb. rabbit! You're right, that's pretty bad.

But with a better pellet, an all pellet diet could be fine. I currently feed Purina Show Formula (blue bag), and my rabbits are doing really well on it. They get about 1/2 cup daily and look fantastic. I do supplement with some rolled oats as well to keep thier coats conditioned. They really would be just fine, condition-wise on that. But I also prefer that my rabbits get more fiber to keep their digestive system healthy, so they get hay too. Some people only do pellets but yeah...hard to find one that's THAT balanced.


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## bunnybunbunb (Jun 16, 2009)

They need the hay for their teeth too. I do not believe the breeder Sway(I took her in due to bad teeth) came from feeds hay, whether that caused it I do not know.

I could only get green bag, the breeding one. I talked to a few friends who used it in the begining when they started and they all said their rabbits kept dying, staying boney, not breeding and producing babies, any babies produced was dying. They switched foods and all seemed fixed.


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