# Plump or Obese?



## Carolyn (Jan 24, 2005)

Since many of us have different ideas about whether an animal is plump or obese, I thought it might help to post about it to keep it in the forefront of our minds.

As you all know, carbohydrates, oils, protein, etc. are used by the body to produce energy, which is required for movement, heat, growth, repair and reproduction. Adipose is a layer of tissue under the skin(and around the kidneys and abdominal cavity) which is packed with fat cells and serves as an insulating and an energy store. Some rabbits will overeat for their energy needs, making them prone to be 'bigger'.

Rabbits can gain weight not only by overeating, but if they are given an unsuitable diet, don't have enough of exercise, or become pregnant.

Since there are a lot of health consequences, it's best to keep closetabs on your rabbit's weight. If not, your rabbit can be predisposed to heart or liver disease, joint and bone disorders, bladder stones, and their life expectancy may be reduced.

The following three assessment techniques are reprinted from Fur and Feather, May 2000 issue. Use this approach to help determine whether your rabbit is obese or not.

* * * * *

1) Assess visually -- a good place to start, but be very subjective.

2) Palpate the animal's body over the shoulders, spine, ribs, and haunces. Some rabbits are quite 'fluffy' and give the appearance of being deceptively large, although underneath they may be quite slim. Feel for fatty deposits under the skin and whether you can detect bones.

3) Weigh the animal - compare with breed standards or ideal adult weights for particular breeds. If the animal is a cross-breed o funknown origin, look more at the visual and palpation technique and look for health problems. Typically an animal is classified as obese when the ribcage is not visible, the bones of the chest are barely palpable, and the body weight is noticeably more than normal for type. 

For more specific indications of obesity, the rabbit will look overweight, uncomfortable, lethargic, and inactive. It will be reluctant to groom, look unkempt in appearance and may have a dirty bottom - possibly leading to myiasis. It will be reluctant to move and may show signs of sore hocks, arthritis, brittle bones, and spinal fractors. There may be changes in behavior as well. 

By contrast, the overweight rabbit may look slightly overweight in appearance, but the animal will probably be happy and fairly active, although it may leave some caecotrophs (which suggests a degree of overfeeding).

* * * * * * * *

-Carolyn


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## dreamgal042 (Jan 24, 2005)

my baby is not plump _or_ obese! he's gorgeous!


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## Carolyn (Jan 24, 2005)

dreamgal042 wrote:


> my baby is not plump _or_ obese! he's gorgeous!




You bet he is, Darlin!

They're all gorgeous, but it's so hard to not fatten them up when theyenjoy their treats more than life itself. Ivory looks gorgeous in hisnew photo shoots. :dude:

-Carolyn


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## m.e. (Jan 24, 2005)

You're supposed to be able to feel their spines,right? How well should you be able to feel their ribs? I know cats aresupposed to be lean and "ribby" but I'm not sure what the standard forbunnies is...


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## Carolyn (Jan 24, 2005)

Hi m.e.,

Your questions are best answered by someone like Pamnock who knows about how a breed should feel. 

Just as a simese cat would feel differently than another breed, Iwonder if the same to be true for rabbits. Don't know - yet. 

Check the ARBA site, perhaps, for the breed's standard weight foradults of your rabbits. Actually, you could probably find that prettyreadily from any source on the web. 

* * * * *

Hello Bunnylover,

If your rabbit is obese, you may want to do it under the supervision ofyour vet to make sure the rabbit is losing weight slowly. You'd want tohave a scale, at the very least if you were to do it yourself. Youdon't want to stress out the rabbit by sudden changes and the weightloss must be slow and steady in order for it to be a healthy one forthe rabbit.

Some things you can do to better manage your rabbit's weight is toreduce the amount of pellets you offer and give them more grass hay.Also, don't give sugary or starchy treats. Give healthier things likevegetables instead, but introduce them slowly and in moderation. 

Watch the rabbit's activity level, appetite, and feces. A successfuldiet for a rabbit is to lose 1% of its original body weight per week 

-Carolyn


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## m.e. (Jan 24, 2005)

Okay-

I've got a Mini-Rex and a Mini-Lop-mix-thing  I'm having some trouble finding a breed standard for either...:?

I asked because I can feel both their backbones quite easily, which Iwasn't sure if that was good or not. Rex's ribs are harder to palpatethan Peanut's. He seems to gain weight more easily, but if I cut foodback she seems to lose too much; so I'm still figuring out how to solvethan conundrum. They really like eating together, cheek to cheek They were both little chubs a few years ago (before I knew better) andespecially as they're getting older (Rex is nearly 6, Peanut's 4 1/2) Iwant to keep a close watch on their bulging bellies 

Someone I know has a morbidly obese bunny. Really, it's so, so sad  Idon't know how to bring it up, because he works with my mom (andadopted one of the kittens, _before_ I knew about the neglectedbunny). That rabbit is so miserable...I don't know what to do


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## Buck Jones (Jan 24, 2005)

I think another criteria is that one should notbe able to see a "belly," per se. Based upon that, all ourbuns are overweight.

Buck


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## pamnock (Jan 24, 2005)

*bunnylover78642 wrote:*


> Compared to this thing my bunny is a huge fatty. What do youdo to slim them down. What should a mini rex weight? What should adutch weight?




The weights set for show standards aren't a good indication of thehealthy weight that each individual should be at.Senior Dutch rabbits show weights range from 3 1/2 pounds to 5 1/2pounds, but you may have a rabbit within that weight range that is toofat or too thin for its individual body type and bone structure.

Pam


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## Buck Jones (Jan 24, 2005)

Not disagreeing with you at all! I'mjust passing on something I read somewhere along the line and reallynot passing judgment upon it. 

Obviously, if all my buns have "bellies," I'm not acceptingit as gospel. I come from an"old school" where we usually preferred people and our pets to havesome "heft" to them.

Marilyn Monroe would be considered large by today's "healthy"standards, I imagine. To me, she was beautiful in a "normal"sort of way, 'cause that was the size woman we were used to seeing.

To my mind, sometimes _less_ is not necessarily _more_.

Buck


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## Carolyn (Jan 24, 2005)

pamnock wrote:


> *bunnylover78642 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Comparedto this thing my bunny is a huge fatty. What do you do to slim themdown. What should a mini rex weight? What should a dutch weight?
> ...




So it is individual body type, Pam? 

Generally speaking, should you be able to feel the spine? 

It says in this edition, and perhaps it's dated - let me know if so,"Typically an animal is classifed as obese when the rib cage is notvisible." 

When should the ribcage be visible - when stretched out?

-Carolyn


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## Gabby (Jan 24, 2005)

it's more, you should be able to fel it by gentlypressing, but shouldnot be able to feel it to easy, nor haveto push to much to feel it


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## rabbitgirl (Jan 25, 2005)

*m.e. wrote: *


> You'resupposed to be able to feel their spines, right? How well should you beable to feel their ribs? I know cats are supposed to be lean and"ribby" but I'm not sure what the standard for bunnies is...


I use the rib test like for cats, but allow slight fat coverage (morein winter). I like to feel ribs but not sharp ribs, if that makes sense.

Some buns are built different too. Bub is lean and hard right now buthas a firm tight layer around his ribcage. The lops have a floaty loosefat layer, because their skin is so loose.

Girls seem to carry it differently also. Boys seem tighter.

Rose


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## rabbitgirl (Jan 25, 2005)

*m.e. wrote: *


> Okay-
> 
> I've got a Mini-Rex and a Mini-Lop-mix-thing  I'm having some trouble finding a breed standard for either...:?
> 
> I asked because I can feel both their backbones quite easily, which Iwasn't sure if that was good or not. Rex's ribs are harder to palpatethan Peanut's. He seems to gain weight more easily, but if I cut foodback she seems to lose too much;


I had the hardest time keeping weight off my mini-rex. The lops lose it so fast it's scary.

Must be a breed thing! I know to watch my lops really closely when dieting.

Rose


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## Spiced77 (Jan 25, 2005)

hrm.. well my mr licks is a bit chubby, but i canstill feel his spine fairly easily. princess on the otherhand, you can easily feel her spine  but she has freeaccess to food, so *shrugs* she's just a skinny bun iguess.. i did however just change their food overto half timothy pellets, half alfalfa pellets to keep mr licks fromgetting overweight, but i found that they eat them twice as fast asstraight alfalfa pellets :shock:not sure if they're just thatyummy to them, or they're not providing as much energy as plain alfalfapellets. their hay intake has also gone up, but i thinkthat's a good thing.


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## bluebird (Jan 25, 2005)

I dont believe you should be able to feel thespine or a rabbit is too thin,you should not be able to feel the hipbones either but sometimes you can and its a genetic thing and not aweight issue.bluebird


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## Stephanie (Jan 25, 2005)

Valuran is our biggest rabbit (Chompers isscrawny compared to him, although Chomps looks large, he's all fur).Abby is in a perfect place weight wise I think.

I actually wonder if Valuran is borderline. He's very solid and hasthat "Rex belly" that Bo mentioned. When we brought him into the vetrecently, he hinted that we should start watching Valuran's weight. Heweighed in at 2.38 kg, which is around 5 pounds (I think). As he's ourmost active rabbit, I'm not overly concerned right now.


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## bunsforlife (Jan 25, 2005)

I used to think Guin was fat, and in fact she haslost weight since she became a free ranger and Gir joined thefamily. But whatI thought was a tummy pooch, was infact fur!

I can feel her spine and her ribs. She is just a poofybunny. And she likes to hunch herself into a compact footlessball. 

Gir is still a growing bunny, but he is lean. Well he is leanwhen he isnt sticking his tummy out for cheerios. Then he isa buddha belly


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## Stephanie (Jan 25, 2005)

I think Valuran looks like Budda Belly in this picture!


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## Stephanie (Jan 25, 2005)

I have seen that picture and LOVE it. LOL


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## Carolyn (Jan 25, 2005)

Generally speaking, should you be able to feel the spine? 

It says in this edition, and perhaps it's dated - let me know if so,"Typically an animal is classifed as obese when the rib cage is notvisible." 

When should the ribcage be visible - when stretched out?


* * * * * * **

Thanks Gabby, Rose, and Bluebird for answering the questions.

-Carolyn


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## pamnock (Jan 25, 2005)

*Carolyn wrote: *


> Generally speaking, should you be able to feel the spine?





Generally, no -- you shouldn't be able to feel the spine. Ina thin rabbit,the spinewillbe the most visible indicator of being underfed or a rabbit looking very "hollow" in the flank area.

The rib cage can be difficult to discern, even in an underfed rabbit.

Flabby skin can indicate obesity as can a very rounded "rolly polly" look.

A rabbit can be under fedand still have adistended stomach. Protein deficiency is one cause of a bloated belly as well as parasites or other health problems.

The rabbit being wider than it is deep (high) may also be another sign of being overweight.

The following is an excerpt from:http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/ClientED/bunny.asp

"To tell if your rabbit is obese is sometimes not easy. Look at the rabbit from the top. It should be pear shaped, not shaped like an apple with a head. If the dewlap is large enough that it touches the rabbit's elbows when it is sitting up, it is obese. If you see extra skin that touches the ground around the back end of the rabbit, it is obese. You should be able to feel the rabbit's ribs without seeing them. Rex rabbits are particularly prone to becoming fat. A rabbit that is too fat also has difficulty grooming itself and you may have the joy of cleaning your rabbit's rear end frequently to prevent conditions called urine scald (where the urine that the animal can not clean off his fur, burns the skin underneath) and fly strike (where the feces that can become matted in the fur attracts flies which lay their eggs). You then get maggots eating the unhealthy flesh of your rabbit's behind. "

(Actually it's easier to tell when a rex rabbit is fat due to the fact that its fur is so short)


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## Carolyn (Jan 25, 2005)

Thanks so much, Pam. I was hoping you'd tune into this thread as well.





-Carolyn


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## pamnock (Jan 25, 2005)

Opps -- I had mistakenly deleted half of my post -- it's fixed now 

When judging, we have to make the determination as to whether or not arabbit is too fat or too thin as both of those would be faults in theircondition. 

Soft, flabby flesh can indicate that the rabbit is too fat.We use the term "over finished" to indicate that a rabbit is verging onbeing overweight and its flesh is softening. The coat mayalso be "open" rather than quickly returning to position. So,overfeeding can also affect the condition of the coat and lend to thecoatbeing in a continual molt.

Pam


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## Carolyn (Jan 25, 2005)

*pamnock wrote:*


> So, overfeeding can also affect the condition ofthe coat and lend to the coatbeing in a continual molt.
> 
> Pam





Excellent information you've shared with us all around,Pam. It doesn't seem as cut and dry as one wouldthink.

I didn't realize that overfeeding can create a molt or put the coat into a continual molt. 

When should I stop feeding Cali the Calf Manna? At a year old?

Many thanks for your help.

-Carolyn


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## pamnock (Jan 25, 2005)

*Carolyn wrote: *


> When should I stop feeding Cali the Calf Manna? At a year old?
> 
> 
> 
> -Carolyn




When growth stops, there is no longer need for the extra protein unless it's a wooled breed or a rabbit in heavy production.

Pam


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## Lassie (Jan 25, 2005)

My baby boy is not fat at all. He is very cute. Delia


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## Carolyn (Jan 30, 2005)

pamnock wrote:


> *Carolyn wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *?*
> ...




Showrabbits just informed me that Cali will grow for 1.5 years and thenwill continue a slow growth spurt until she's 3-4 years old. :shock: !!She's certain that she'll develop a dewlap because she can see itcoming. She mentioned stopping the Calf Manna when her dewlap is fullydeveloped. 

God knows if I'll be able to tell when that happens. 

-Carolyn


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## m.e. (Jan 30, 2005)

Well, I figured out why Rex was/is molting




Between housesitting and being busy with school, I had my brother helpout with feeding the rabbits. When Rex was looking a littlemore...plump than usual (in addition to being shaggy), I queried mybrother and found out he was feeding them twice a day (which is good),but the amount of food that should have been for the *entire day*,not for each meal!

So my little man put on a little chub and is completely blowing his coat. Silly boys. . .


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## pamnock (Jan 30, 2005)

Very large breeds may not reach their matureweight until 8 or more months of age. Smaller breeds areusually full grown by approx. 6 months of age.

Pam


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## dr_peter_kraz (Jan 31, 2005)

Isn't it true that any breed is overweight if after the ribs the body is bigger instead of slimmer.

Peter


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## RebeccaUK (Jan 31, 2005)

My Benjamin tends to manage his own weight verywell - I give him the recommended amount of pellets for his breed andhe just eats what he wants and leaves the rest. The same goeswith treats, veggies and other titbits - he will eat a little untilhe's had enough. Are most rabbits like this or do some go oneating and eatingif the food is available?


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## m.e. (Jan 31, 2005)

I think some buns can self-regulate, and somejust can't. Rex and Peanut, who were both overweight in the past, wouldnot be able to maintain a healthy weight unless their feed wasregulated (as can be seen by what happened to Rex after a week or so ofoverfeeding). But I've seen some rabbits who can have a full dish andnever have to worry about putting on chub. At the shelter, we have toremember who needs regulated feed and who can just have their dishfilled. Some bunnies like to leave food in their dish just to leave itthere, they freak when it's empty. Strange lil' creatures, they are...


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## Carolyn (Jan 31, 2005)

*dr_peter_kraz wrote:*


> Isn't it true that any breed is overweight if after the ribsthe body is bigger instead of slimmer.
> 
> Peter



Hi Peter, 


If they're slimmer after the ribs, that usuallymeans the ribsare sticking out and the rabbit's too skinny. The back end issupposed to be as big or even a bit bigger to some extent, if I'm notmistaken.

-Carolyn


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## RebeccaUK (Jan 31, 2005)

Bo is beautiful and doesn't look pear shaped to me - what a beautiful picture.


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## pamnock (Jan 31, 2005)

*Carolyn wrote:*


> *dr_peter_kraz wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Isn'tit true that any breed is overweight if after the ribs the body isbigger instead of slimmer.
> ...




I went out a couple days ago to test the "ribtheory". Matthew's English Spot had beenoff its feed and had dropped a lot of weight, andits spineandhip boneswere obviously protruding. Nomatter which position I put the rabbit in, its ribs could not beobserved protruding and felt very smooth. Rabbits appear tohave a much smaller rib cage diameter as compared to other mammals, soin most cases, the ribs cannot be used as an indication of a rabbitbeing under weight. The best indicator of an underweightrabbit is whether or not you can feel the spine. You'll alsonote that the rabbit will be very sunken in at the flank area.

The good news is that the Spot is back on its feed and is quickly gaining the lost weight back.

Pam


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## MyBabyBunnies (Jan 31, 2005)

I'm so confused!

With Mocha I can feel his spine (but I always can no matter how muchfood he gets) and if I press a bit I can feel his ribs. But his bodyfeels 'firm' when he's sitting in a crouched up position. When he laysstretched out he looks so fat and his body seems so wide. He has abulge where his belly is after the ribs. He also has a small dewlap.

I'm not really sure if he's over weight, under weight, or a good weight.


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## m.e. (Jan 31, 2005)

MyBunnyBoys wrote:


> I'm so confused!



Me too :? I can _always_ feel Rex's spine, even when he's put on a bit of chub...


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## pamnock (Jan 31, 2005)

In some cases, the spine may be protruding due tothe rabbits own physical makeup and the fact that it doesn't have goodflesh covering over the spine. Also acommon geneticfault is protruding "pin bones" (aitch bone or ilium) at the rear ofthe rump.

So in some cases, you may still feel the spine of a healthy, well fed rabbit.

Pam


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## Carolyn (Jan 31, 2005)

Pam, 

Is it safe to say the measure of whether a rabbit is over orunderweight should be compared to and determined by the breed of therabbit? Do they have bone structures in the Standards? If a rabbit is amix, would you go towards the breed that seems most prominent in therabbit's build?

Thanks.



-Carolyn


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## Carolyn (Jan 31, 2005)

*pamnock wrote:*


> *Carolyn wrote:*
> 
> 
> > *dr_peter_kraz wrote: *
> ...





Absolutely right! I stand corrected. I had a vet's assistant tell me that, but it's wrong information.

Rick Stahl's note is: 

"Wider rib cage wouldnt be factor ofweight, but of conformity. Too narrow rib cage would produce too narrowbody, too much taper. If weight is proper ribs wouldnt normally showon either a wide or narrow rib cage and conversely ribs could show onboth a severely under weight wide and/or narrow rib cage."

Sorry to confuse, Peter. Thanks, Pam, for the information.




-Carolyn


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## dr_peter_kraz (Jan 31, 2005)

They must be taking about you Faye.Thanks for the input. And this is a prefect example of a Fatrab. Carolyn I think this is a great topic to bring up...


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## pamnock (Jan 31, 2005)

*Carolyn wrote: *


> Pam,
> 
> Is it safe to say the measure of whether a rabbit is over orunderweight should be compared to and determined by the breed of therabbit? Do they have bone structures in the Standards? If a rabbit is amix, would you go towards the breed that seems most prominent in therabbit's build?
> 
> ...




Basically, Yes. If you compare a St. Bernard to a Whippet,you not a distinctly different body type and bone structure.The Whippet, compared to the St. Bernard would appear to be starving todeath if you were not familiar with the unique, slender type and finebone structureof the whippet.

You can make a similar comparison with the French Lop and a breed suchas the slender English Spot. The French Lop may appear overweight due to the normal tendency of its skin to be veryloose. The longer typed English Spot may appear to some to beunder weight, however it has a distinctly different body type and finerbone structure than the French Lop.

Your rabbit's activity level can also indicate if the rabbit is overweight. If it is lethargic, tires easily or has a hard timegrooming itself, it may be overweight.

So, it is actually a combination of signs that can be used to indicate whether or not your rabbit is overweight.

Pam


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## Elf Mommy (Jan 31, 2005)

I think of Elf as "pleasingly plump"... Shedoesn't have a hard time cleaning herself or getting around. She's asrambunctious as any rabbit during her morning or evening romp about thehouse. She probably did have some excess pudge during her cheapo foodstage--which probably contributed to her lovely dewlap. Now she lookspretty sleek in comparison.  I'm happy with how she is now. If sheseems to start having troubles, I'll adjust food accordingly.


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## Snuggys Mom (Feb 26, 2005)

I made a huge mistake by feeding my first bunnytoo much of the wrong kind of food. It was a pellet mix withdried fruit, carrots, seeds, etc. She was young when I gother and I was told to feed her unlimited pellets. I didn'tknow you were supposed to stop when they're three months old!When it became obvious she had a weight problem, I researched and founda good feed (Oxbow) and learned how much to feed and when.Snuggy is really getting back in shape now (two months later) and islooking much better and dancing like crazy again! I need totake some photos now and post them so you can see the "before andafter". Don't be mad at me! I know betternow. I'll never let that happen again.

Carolyn's Good Friend; )


FatPics:


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## Carolyn (Feb 26, 2005)

If the shoe fits....



-Carolyn


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## Snuggys Mom (Feb 26, 2005)

I guess I deserved that. 

The other shoe that fits is obviously the "bad speller" shoe.

Laura


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## lovrabs (Feb 27, 2005)

:shock:Snuggy is too fat, but sooo cute!! Good thing you get Oxbow Hay&amp;Food!!!:shock:

Ally


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## ayglnu13 (Mar 29, 2005)

I would say that Nimue is pleasantly plump  











~Amy+Nimue~
(Nim-a-way)


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## Carolyn (Jul 14, 2005)

*Bump* for Katy.


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## Emmy-webby (Jul 14, 2005)

Thank you for the bump Carolyn. I really appreciate it.

I'll bookmark this page for reference. 

:clap:


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## Emmy-webby (Jul 30, 2005)

I'm getting worried now...

I've beenkeeping Emmy ona diet for about 2 weeksnow (15 days) and it looks like she's been gaining weight more thanlosingweight actually. I've PM Carloyned about a diet, alongthose lines and she said to give less pellets and more hay. I've donethis for the last 2 weeks..am I doing anything wrong?

Thanks, 

Katy


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## Carolyn (Aug 31, 2005)

Emmy-webby wrote:


> I'm getting worried now...
> 
> I've been?keeping Emmy on?a diet for about 2 weeks now (15 days) and itlooks like she's been gaining weight more than losing?weight actually.I've PM Carloyned about a diet, along those lines and she said to giveless pellets and more hay. I've done this for the last 2 weeks..am Idoing anything wrong?
> 
> ...




How's Emmy doing, Katy?

-Carolyn


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## Kricket (Sep 1, 2005)

Bumping for Linz!


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## Linz_1987 (Sep 1, 2005)

Thankyou all!

I would like to take time to state how usefull u guys all are! This isa very educating forum filled with lots of friendly and pleasantpeople. We have are ups and downs, but we all stick together.**As one** ink iris:


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## Carolyn (Sep 8, 2005)

*bump* for Nose_Twitch.


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## nose_twitch (Sep 8, 2005)

Thanks for bumping Carolyn. I'mactually really worried that my 3-month-old mix isunderweight. Recently he got over thesnuffles, andhe seems very active, but I can feel his ribs easily, and his hip bonesprotrude. I feed him unlimited grass hay (an oat, wheat, andbarley mix and timothy hay) and Kaytee pellets. I used togive him a handful of greens until the vet said that wasn't good forbaby rabbits.

The problem is I've noticed him losing weight ever since I stoppedfeeding him greens. What should I do to put some weight onhim? Feed alphalfa hay? Feed a differentpellet? Feed him greens again?

Any advice would be appreciated.


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## HoneyPot (Sep 8, 2005)

Hmm, now that I read this I'm worried aboutCookie being underweight too. I can also easily feel hisspine and hip bones. He gets 1/8 cup of Oxbow pellets andalmost 2 cups of vegetables a day - and unlimited hay and he's only 2pounds. He doesn't get any treats except for a piece ofcarrot or melba toast (he loves it - what a wierdo) every now and thenand maybe a piece of fruit once or twice a week.

When we got him he was 3 pounds - but he was on pellets only and notgetting any run time, since then he's lost a pound, but is eating tonsbetter.... hmm.


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## Carolyn (Sep 8, 2005)

Hi Nose_Twitch (I love that name!)

Was he on meds? It could be because of that that he's alittle low on weight. Stress can do ittoo. He doesn't have any parasites or troubles withpooping or peeing, does he?

I'd give him unlimited pellets at this point, you can also give himsome greens, but would go into it slowly rather than all atonce. Oats will help as well. Don't know what theratio of Kaytee pellets are, but I'd make sure the pellets you aregiving him are at least 12% or more of crude protein and 18%+ of crudefiber. If you do decide to switch pellets, do it slowlyaddinga bit of new pellets to the old ones and wean him offgradually as sometimes they can stress when changingfeeds. You might try a bit of NutriCal just to givehis system a boost and increase his appetite. 

You could go to alfalfa hay, just be sure that his calcium contentisn't too rich if he does go on it. You'll notice it by hisurine looking more milky/white in color. 

-Carolyn


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## Carolyn (Sep 8, 2005)

*HoneyPot wrote:*


> Hmm, now that I read this I'm worried about Cookie beingunderweight too. I can also easily feel his spine and hipbones. He gets 1/8 cup of Oxbow pellets and almost 2 cups ofvegetables a day - and unlimited hay and he's only 2 pounds.He doesn't get any treats except for a piece of carrot or melba toast(he loves it - what a wierdo) every now and then and maybe a piece offruit once or twice a week.
> 
> When we got him he was 3 pounds - but he was on pellets only and notgetting any run time, since then he's lost a pound, but is eating tonsbetter.... hmm.





Could always up the 1/8 of a cup for him until he's got a bit more meat on his bones. 

How's his behavior and his poop and pee look? (See note above to Nose_Twitch.)

-Carolyn


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## nose_twitch (Sep 8, 2005)

Carolyn,

Thanks for your advice. I think I will have to change hispellets slowly because Kaytee is less than 18% fiber. Any toanswer your question, yes, he was antibiotics for 10 days because ofsnuffles (poor baby). I'm sure that has something to do withit.


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## Carolyn (Sep 8, 2005)

Yes, Nose_Twitch, the meds could certainly be afactor. I think it's very wise to change his pellets tosomething more along the lines of the numbers I was talkingabout. At that age, you want to make sure they're getting thenutrients and vitamins they need.

* * * * * **

I don't want to alarm you, HoneyPot, but you should check out thethread, "Freddy's always starving..."http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=9564&amp;forum_id=1

-Carolyn


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## HoneyPot (Sep 8, 2005)

*Carolyn wrote:*


> *HoneyPot wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Hmm, nowthat I read this I'm worried about Cookie being underweighttoo. I can also easily feel his spine and hipbones. He gets 1/8 cup of Oxbow pellets and almost 2 cups ofvegetables a day - and unlimited hay and he's only 2 pounds.He doesn't get any treats except for a piece of carrot or melba toast(he loves it - what a wierdo) every now and then and maybe a piece offruit once or twice a week.
> ...



His poops and pees are pretty normal - big and round poops unless it'sduring shed where he sometimes gets a couple little guys and then somehair passing and back to normal... and his pee ranges from normal clearto orange and sometimes whiter (but then we cut back the calcium)....so nothing out of the ordinary. Maybe I'll give him someextra pellets. He's going to think he hit the lottery!


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## FreddysMom (Sep 8, 2005)

*Carolyn wrote: *


> Yes,Nose_Twitch, the meds could certainly be a factor. I thinkit's very wise to change his pellets to something more along the linesof the numbers I was talking about. At that age, you want tomake sure they're getting the nutrients and vitamins they need.
> 
> * * * * * **
> 
> ...


my .. I forgot about that thread! he still is always begging for food.. we are still worm free so I dont think it is that..hes definatelynot skinny (nor overweight either)... i think he just likesto eat and would do well in an all you can eat buffet!

FEEEEEEEEED ME !!


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## HoneyPot (Sep 8, 2005)

*Carolyn wrote: *


> I don't want to alarm you, HoneyPot, but you should check out thethread, "Freddy's always starving..."http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=9564&amp;forum_id=1
> 
> -Carolyn


ACK!! I'm such a hypochondriac.... Worms!?! He hasn't lost any weight in about 5 months, he's been a steady 2 pounds. 

Hmm, I'm not too worried yet though cause he leaves some of his pelletsand veggeis if he's full and he doesn't always eat all the hay I leavehim.


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## naturestee (Sep 8, 2005)

HoneyPot, my Mocha is about the same weight asCookie and also tends to be skinny. She's very active and canbe a dainty eater. She shares a cage with my 5 lb Dutch andshares a little less than a full cup of timothy pellets with him everyday (about 1/2 cup per day per bunny). Plus tons of hay andan estimated 1 cup of greens per bunny. They are both holdingat what I consider a good weight for both of them even though this ismore pellets than is usually recommended for their sizes. 

This is actually the way I fed Loki to help him shed his extra weight. He was a butterball when I adopted him.


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## Carolyn (Sep 8, 2005)

Keep in mind the breed and body-type before you get too worried.



-Carolyn


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## brensbunny (Sep 9, 2005)

Snowbelle(Beau)I think is rather.. chunky.

Sheis either a mini rex... which means she is very obese, or a standard that puts her below the standard. 

I can feel her ribs, though cant see them, even when stretched all out,but can see the hips, I can def see a whole lotsa belly and thatdewlap..


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## Snuggys Mom (Sep 9, 2005)

Wow! Snowbelle is a plus-size model! She's a big beautiful girl. What do you feed her? 

My fat girl, Snuggy has been on a diet since February and has lostthree pounds. She feels much better now and so doI. It was my fault she got so big.

Laura


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## brensbunny (Sep 9, 2005)

When I got her the lady was feeding her 3 bigbowls of veggies a day, plus about a half cup of dried fruit mix (shewas going thru a entire bag a week).. and a full bowl of pellets, Imeasured this.. its almost 2 cps. Plus every 3 dys she was getting oneof them stick treats with what looked like bird seed stuck to it.

I think she has slimmed up some.. and she is on a diet, she only gets 2small bowls of veggies, one in the am and another in the pm. A smallbit of fruit in the pm. No dried fruit mix .. none of the them sticktreats, 1/2 cp of pellets, lotsa hay. She sure gets miffed at me whenshe is done with them greens, tossin her bowl to tell me this is notfilling me up.. I want the large bowl back.. 

This was her when I got her about a month and a half ago...


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## Snuggys Mom (Sep 9, 2005)

You're doing a good job. She looks much better. Keep up the good work!

Laura


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## HoneyPot (Sep 9, 2005)

>




 Check out the chunky little legs on her... always goes to agirlsthighs first! I share her pain. Shelooks awfully sweet and cuddly! I love her!!


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## Carolyn (Sep 9, 2005)




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## Snuggys Mom (Sep 9, 2005)

Snuggy's all went to her, um, hips:






Hee hee


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## Linz_1987 (Sep 9, 2005)

Hiya guys! Sorry i havent been on for a while,Been away at my b/fs house. I did take a picture of Dotty and how fatshe is, but i cant seem to get the camera to transfer pics onto thepooter. Stupid technology. Should get sorted soon tho. My mum has beengivin her less dry food etc and it seems to be going ok. Cant say ihave noticed weight loss on her yet tho lol. I dont remember who itwas, but somebody asked if we could PM each other about r chubbybunnies. And i wouldnt mind doing that at all, thank you, sorry i cantremember who u r! Please reply to this if u are out there lol. Hope youhave all been good over the last week and no more terrible things havehappened.


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## Linz_1987 (Oct 5, 2005)

ok..i cut down on Dotties food and have been forbout 2 monts now. I have recently realised how skinny she is lookingand feeling :?shalli go back to feeding her like i use tobefore her diet? Maybe she is just a big build bunny and looked fat...she is definetly very boney now. Starting to get worried!


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## dajeti2 (Oct 5, 2005)

If your rabbit went from being obese tothat skinny in a month's time. I really think you need to get her to avet and get her checked out. That kind of weight loss is not normal norhealthy. Neither is being over weight.

You need your rabbit savvy vet to go over what is healthy foryour rabbit and what weight sheshould be. That amount ofweight loss is very stressful for your rabbits body. She needs to beseen.

Tina

It would really help if we knew her breed and could see some pics of her heavy and pics of her now too.


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## Nicky Snow (Oct 5, 2005)

*Carolyn wrote:*


>


:roflhmy i am still laughing...


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## Linz_1987 (Oct 6, 2005)

She wasnt obese, she was just plump.She is a holland lop (i think). This is her when i first gother. She also felt really plump too when you picked her upetc.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v600/linz_oliver/newrabbit004Small.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v600/linz_oliver/newrabbit006Small.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v600/linz_oliver/newrabbit001Small.jpg

When i saw her sittin in the garden she looked plump, and she has beenfor a while. But yday i went to cuddle her and i ran my hand along herback, and i could feel her spine. Her shoulders were also very boney. 

Recently she has got a hutch in the garden. I rescued her from a centrebut they had no idea if she was a house rabbit or a garden rabbit. Shewas living in our house for a while, but had to change to a hutchoutdoors. When we let her in the garden to play she always wants tocome back in side. I think this is a very good symptom of house bunie!But sadly she has had to be kept outside. She had taken the change verywell and stil ate all her food. But i had cut down on the food beforeshe was going out in a hutch. I dont know if it is that sheis not use to the cold as it is getting colder and colder each day. Buti thought it would be ok if i had put her outside in advance of thecold weather. She still eats her dried food as soon as i put the bowldown, and it is literally gone within seconds! 

I will get a picture of her as she is now, but she doesnt look skinny. She is only skinny when you feel how skinny she is. 

Thankz guys!


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## Jenniblu (Oct 6, 2005)

Oh I see what you mean in thepicturesnow - she was plump not obese. What aboutincreasing her pellets a bit to get some more weight on her?Sometimes recommendedfeeding amounts needadjustedfor anindividual rabbit's activity level,age, and other factors.

Since you are keeping her outside and it is getting cooler, you mightwant to check out the thread on keeping a rabbit warm --http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=1964

keep us informed on how she is doing.


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## Linz_1987 (Oct 6, 2005)

Thannk you for your advice! I have increased the dried food now. Hopefully she will get back to a nice size!

I was watching Pet Rescue earlier and woe and behold an obese rabbitcame on! It was soooo huge!!!! It was a giant english lop and was 3times the weight it should be. It sadly died which isnt suprisingreally. I coulldnt believe how somebody could of let it to get thatsize. It was such a sad sight. It just sat there all day because itcouldnt move


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## jordiwes (Oct 6, 2005)

Dottie looks like my mini lop and she doesn'tlook too plump to me (she resembles my wesley boy). I would follow thewww.rabbit.org regulations in regardsto feeding her and not really worry unless her weight starts to preventher from cleaning herself and really slows her down.


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## Snuggys Mom (Dec 5, 2005)

I need ideas, please. 

What do you do when you have a bonded pair and one of them is overweight, while the other is on the skinny side?

I'm thinking of letting Snuggy (fat girl) out when I first get home foran extra hour or so while Baby (littleone) enjoys pellets,oats and a little fruit or carrot. Snuggy can get a littlemore exercise that way and she probably won't notice Baby is gettingtreats.

I want to take Snuggy off pellets altogether. The problemisBaby is a slow eater. It takes her all day toconsume three ounces of pellets, but she really needs them. Ido not want to cage them separately. It would devastatethem.

For now, I've takenSnuggy's oats, fruit and carrots away, butthey only get a little of thatanyway. 

Any suggestions?

Laura


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## Saffy (Dec 5, 2005)

I dont think he looks a Buddah belly .. just comfortably filled up ...


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## jordiwes (Dec 5, 2005)

*Laura wrote: *


> I'mthinking of letting Snuggy (fat girl) out when I first get home for anextra hour or so while Baby (littleone) enjoys pellets, oatsand a little fruit or carrot. Snuggy can get a little moreexercise that way and she probably won't notice Baby is gettingtreats.
> 
> I want to take Snuggy off pellets altogether. The problemisBaby is a slow eater. It takes her all day toconsume three ounces of pellets, but she really needs them. Ido not want to cage them separately. It would devastatethem.
> 
> For now, I've takenSnuggy's oats, fruit and carrots away, butthey only get a little of thatanyway.


Aw, I love Snuggy. Yes,I would suggest giving Snuggy a littlebit more exercise while Baby has a chance to eat. I have asimilar problem where Wesley is a piggie and Jordi is picky and petite.Have you tried mixing the pellets with something like oats for Baby?


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## Snuggys Mom (Dec 5, 2005)

*jordiwes wrote: *


> Have you tried mixing the pellets with something like oats for Baby?


Yes, she LOVES oats! She's not too terribly skinny, but youcan feel all her bones.What's funny is she probablyeats more than Snuggy and she stays thin. Snuggyreallydoesn't eat that much, but she'slazy.When she's out, she usually finds a nice spotand parks it! She needs a treadmill! 

I'm going to try bringing Snuggy out for an extra couple of hours perday and see what happens. I'll have to get another litter boxfor her on the way home today. 

Laura


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## jordiwes (Dec 5, 2005)

One other thing is that if Snuggy is indeed overweight, losing some weight might actually increase her energy level.It's that dreaded cycle!


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## Snuggys Mom (Dec 6, 2005)

Snuggy is MAD at me. Taking her treatsis like taking my caffeine. I let her out first last nightand then tried to sneak Baby a piece of carrot. Snuggysniffed it out and had a fit. 

I did manage to get her to play a game of chase with me. Irun in a big circle around the furniture and she chases me.We both got some exercise! She will only runcounter-clockwise though. Isn't that weird?

Laura


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## Carolyn (Dec 6, 2005)

Snuggers!!! 

Diets do tend to make the ones on them mad. 

Glad to hear that she at least ran away from you!

:wink:

-Carolyn


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## Snuggys Mom (Dec 6, 2005)

*Carolyn wrote: *


> Glad to hear that she at least ran away from you!
> 
> :wink:


No, she was chasing after me! She probably thought I had food!


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## Carolyn (Dec 6, 2005)

:laugh:

That's even better!


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## Carolyn (Dec 6, 2005)

Run down the Evil Ones, Snuggy! You Go Girl!!

:run: :runningrabbit:


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## Linz_1987 (Aug 2, 2006)

Im back again! On news on Dottie...

She looks fine in weight at the moment, but it all changes when she lays/sits down. When she sits down with her front legs sticking out, and her back legs tucked away. There is so much access weight on her sides. I can feel her spine and her leg bones stick out alot. She is still a happy bunnie and can clean herself easily. Im not sure if I should cut down on her dried food or her fresh veg. She doesnt seem to eat alot of hay, nor does my other rabbit though. Its the guinea pigs that eat lots of hay all the time!

She doesnt look very fat at all, but when she lays down it looks really bad.


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## JimD (Aug 2, 2006)

...this is Brindle's "before" pic......I still need to get an "after" one.
I started her on a limited pellet diet and she's gotten quite a svelt look now.:bunnydance:







I think that limiting the pellets was the key. That, and cutting out all none essential treats. Daily she gets 1/4 cup of pellets (half alfalfa - half timothy based), 1/2 tspn rolled oats, unlimited hay and water. Twice a week she gets 1 cup romaine....twice a week she gets timothy cubes (as a treat)....and twice a week she gets some dried papaya.

~Jim


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## pamnock (Aug 2, 2006)

Oh my goodness Jim! Move over Kirstie Alley! We havea new Jenny Craig spokeswoman!

:bunnysuit



Pam


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## Snuggys Mom (Aug 2, 2006)

*pamnock wrote: *


> Oh my goodness Jim! Move over Kirstie Alley! We havea new Jenny Craig spokeswoman!


:roflmao:


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## NZminilops (Aug 3, 2006)

I'm a bit confused now - I am pretty sure my rabbit is underweight yet she shows the signs of being fat. She has a huge dewlap, and even has mini dewlaps hanging off her front hegs. She has a 'ruff' of fur(flesh?) on her back end. She has a hard time cleaning herself some weeks. Yet she just just finished nursing a litter of seven last week, and her ribs stick out and are really easily felt, so are her spine and her hips. It's like the top half of her body is skinny and her bottom half is fat.

She sure looks fat, but feels really skinny. Her ribs drop of sharply into a narrow waist when I run my hand over her. I can feel the edge of the ribs at this point quite sharply. So should I be feeding her up or cutting down? She gets around 10 hours a day outside of her hutch running around and digging holes and generally being an outdoor rabbit. She eats around half a cup of pellets a day, some rolled oats, some hay (not much, she doesn't like it) and all the grass she could ask for. When she was nursing she was free fed pellets.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j10/a31cefiro/Dodge/bunny3.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j10/a31cefiro/Dodge/02.jpg


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## pamnock (Aug 3, 2006)

Minilops,

Brood does are sometimes very rough in condition due to the nutritional demands of feeding a litter. 

What type of feed is she getting? Too much protein can result in a very rough condition, too little protein can result in a pot bellied appearance.

Has she always been somewhat rough in condition (Lops have a tendency toward rough body condition and loose skin).

Pam


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## NZminilops (Aug 3, 2006)

Hello Pam, I will try and condense her story down, hopefully it sheds some light.

She is about 3 and a half years old. In January this year I had been visiting a family in the neighbourhood who I caregive for their mentally challenged daughter, and they had two rabbits belonging to a family member that was living there. They were starving and living in their own filth, in seperate outdoor hutches. I threatened calling the SPCA on them, either that or they handed the rabbits over which they did eventually. 31 days later the doe gives birth (what a shock). 10 weeks later the buck dies, not sure if it was because of his previous life or what but he was so much better by then (old age? they got him when he was already old). 31 days after he dies she gives birth AGAIN! I suspect either he manged to mate with her through the bars or someone thought it would be funny to put them together.

This litter of 7 has all been weaned a week ago. She has always had a huge dewlap but as she had such a bad start to life I am not sure what would be a normal body condition for her. Her coat has finally gotten to be plush and silky soft after 6 months of having her. She has never been fat. She was being fed with grass and unlabled pellets from a bulk buy store. I have her on a good feed now, supplemented by grass and puha (a New Zealand weed that rabbits go crazy for, even people boil it and eat it), the occasional bit of carrot etc, and every day she is let out of her hutch for a run around the lawn and a dig in the garden. Her ribcage seems wider since the litters, that maks it feel sharper.

Her stomach skin feels firm but the front half of her body seems fleshy and saggy?

We also don't have access to the type of rabbit foods that you have available in the US. She eats a brand called PCL which are meant for meat rabbits but it was the best thing I could find (apart from one type of pellet that I think was Oxbow? It was $32 for a 3.5 pound bag). PCL is not as high in protein as the other meat rabbit feed at the farm supply store and has less fat and more fibre and vitamens. It's also only $1- for a 20 pound bag. She doesn't eat many pellets anyway, she mosly eats grass and bits of the apple tree, and she loves rolled oast so I give her a few to nibble on in the morning. She gets a heck of a lot of exercise so I think she burns up all her energy doing that.


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## pamnock (Aug 3, 2006)

From your description (and from the photos), it certainly sounds like she's doing very well -- especially under the circumstances she came from. 

Her coat seems to indicate very good health, and I would say the diet you've got her on and the fact that she's getting a lot of excercise has put her in excellent health.

It's not unusual for lops to have "saggy" skin, so that in itself, is not a good indicator of whether or not the rabbit is "too fat".

Pam


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## Jenni (Aug 4, 2006)

Just because a girl bunny has a dewlap that doesn't mean she's obese, right?

Gretchen has a dainty little dewlap.











In fact, I worry that she is too skinny.


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## pamnock (Aug 4, 2006)

*Jenni wrote: *


> Just because a girl bunny has a dewlap that doesn't mean she's obese, right?
> 
> Gretchen has a dainty little dewlap.
> 
> ...


 

Correct - a dewlap does not necessarily indicate that a rabbit is overweight.

She looks to be at a very healthy weight (and is a beautiful girl!). When a rabbit is getting too thin, one of the major indicators is that the spine is veryeasily feltand protrudes.



Pam


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## Jenni (Aug 5, 2006)

Thank you!


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## flemishr2cool (Aug 5, 2006)

Flabby or having lots of skin folds doesn't always mean fat. For example I have a Flemish Giant doe that recently had a Uterus infection, and shestill8 pounds underweight. Anyway by looking at her she looks like she is still normal weight, in fact she looks overweight, but once you feel her then its a different story. So my point is that just by looking at a rabbit you can't judge their weight, you need to feel for bone or lack their of due to fat layers over bones.

Julia


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## Jenni (Aug 5, 2006)

Thanks. I did feel her back and it feels solid--no fat, but I couldn't feel her spinal cord. It was real easy to check that way.


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## pamnock (Aug 5, 2006)

*Jenni wrote: *


> Thanks. I did feel her back and it feels solid--no fat, but I couldn't feel her spinal cord. It was real easy to check that way.


 


Sounds good! It's also the way I have my 7 year old check his rabbits to be sure he's feeding the right amount.

(just a note - you are actually feeling for spinal vertebra - not the spinal cord which is protected by the spinal column.)

Pam


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## MyBabyBunnies (Aug 5, 2006)

*pamnock wrote: *


> When a rabbit is getting too thin, one of the major indicators is that the spine is veryeasily feltand protrudes.


 I was actually told by a vet and have seen it myself that that is a poor indicator. Mocha was rather overweight according to my vet (you had to really DIG to find his ribs) but his spine was always very easily felt -- he could be 8.5 lbs and I'd still feel his spine very easily.

She told me that the spine often protrudes on rabbits and to not judge by it but to judge by the ribs instead. She told me that you should be able to feel them without have to really apply a lot of pressure but not so much that you feel the ribs by just lightly running your hand over their side.

Spice and Zoey on the other hand, their spine doesn't protrude at all so I guess it depends on the rabbit.


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## pamnock (Aug 5, 2006)

Ribs are nearly impossible to judge by because of the narrow width of the ribspread -- I've rarely seen a rabbit's ribs protrude except in a few cases of extreme emaciation. 

The spine will protrude in rabbits that are underweight, and can also protrude in rabbits that in poor condition (especially obvious during molt). In less common cases, the rabbit's confirmation can cause the spine to be very rough.

It does take some experience and familiarity with your own rabbit to be able to discern the difference, but I've handled thousands of rabbits and found the ribs to be a very poor indicator of whether or not the rabbit it underweight. In most cases, the rabbit must be very close to starvation for the ribs to protrude when the rabbit is in a normal standing position.

In show rabbits, the animal is faulted for a rough spine -- this is not something that is common or desired in rabbits but may be seen in those of poor quality or poor condition.

Having owned literally thousands of rabbits (and handled thousands more), I've found that runnin my hands over the spine to be one of the best indicators of general condition. 

In rabbits that are fat (we often refer to those slightly overweight as "over finished", the flesh is softer and the coat lacks finish). There may actually be a valley at the spine and/or over the back of the rump along the spine. On the other hand, you find that rabbits generally don't get much fat build-up over the ribs -- you can still rub and the rib cage and be able to discern the ribs even on a obese rabbit.

Remember that judging general condition and assessing whether or not a rabbit is even very slightly under or over the proper weight for it's confirmation and whether it has too much or too little flesh on it's frame is actually my "profession" 

Pam


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## JimD (Aug 7, 2006)

*pamnock wrote: *


> The spine will protrude in rabbits that are underweight, and can also protrude in rabbits that in poor condition (especially obvious during molt). In less common cases, the rabbit's confirmation can cause the spine to be very rough.
> 
> In show rabbits, the animal is faulted for a rough spine -- this is not something that is common or desired in rabbits but may be seen in those of poor quality or poor condition.
> 
> ...


 A couple of weeks ago, if you ran your hand down MooShu's spine you could feel the small smooth bumps of her vertebrea (if you pressed gently). But today it feels sharper and a bit more pronounced. Hopefully, now that her appetite has picked up, she'll be gaining some weight back.


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## MyBabyBunnies (Aug 7, 2006)

I know you should know how to judge it Pam but I'm not actually looking for protruding ribs. I was told to apply a light pressure over the ribs and if I felt the ribs but not too clearly, then they were in good condition and if I had to apply medium or heavy pressure to feel the ribs, the rabbit is overweight.

Mocha must be one of those odd ones because no matter how much he weighs (even when he was obviously overweight) his spine was easily felt without applying pressure. Anyways, I'll stick to what I was told by my vet.


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## pamnock (Aug 7, 2006)

I went out and checked a couple of my fat rabbits. With light pressure, I could detect their ribs as easily as in a thinner rabbit (The ribs don't build up much fat over their surface area so it's not the best indicator in rabbits of whether or not they are over wieght). Fat build-up in rabbits can vary, but we find it most commonly throughout the shoulders and over the back and loin area. During processing, large deposits of fat can be found in the abdomen and around the kidneys.

Quote by Astrid Kurse DVM *"Remember that the ribs are palpable in even quite obese rabbits, so don't let your bunny fool you into more snacks!"*

http://www.rabbitnetwork.org/articles/obese.shtml



Pam


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