# Sooty Fawn - Tortoiseshell



## Sabine (Nov 28, 2008)

I have just been browsing through the BRC colour standards (doing my homework)
I read through the description of sooty fawn and tortoiseshell. They sounded more or less identical. My rabbit Coco was described as sooty fawn by some but as tort by others. Is there actually any difference?


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## Flashy (Nov 28, 2008)

Does the same marking have different names for different breeds? I know some colours over here are like that.


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## NZminilops (Nov 28, 2008)

Sooty fawn is black tort, yep! Also blue tort in the US is beige to us that follow the UK terms as far as I know.


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## Sabine (Nov 28, 2008)

That confuses me even more:huh


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## NZminilops (Nov 28, 2008)

Sorry I didn't mean to confuse .

Black tortoishell in the USA/Canada etc is what people in the UK/Australia/New Zealand (not sure where else) call sooty fawn. Usually just called tort for short I guess, or black tort if it's not a blue, choc or lilac. 

So tort and sooty fawn are the same thing.


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## Sabine (Nov 28, 2008)

You actually make sense it's just the BRC site that confuses me because they don't make it clear. Or maybe I'm not reading it right


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## TinysMom (Nov 28, 2008)

I only know about the US colors, etc -and only really for lionheads.

Here - from what I understand - fawn is in the agouti family and I thought "sooty" meant that it wasn't a clear fawn....but was sorta off the color. Whereby tortoiseshell is in a different family altogether - not agouti.

But once again - I only know lionheads and not other breeds and colors outside the US.

I'm asking Pam Nock to take a look at this thread - I'm sure NZMinilops is right - but since Pam is so good with colors even outside the US.....she may have a bit more insight on the names, etc.


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## Sabine (Nov 28, 2008)

In the BRC description the genotype was the same for both


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## bunnybunbunb (Nov 28, 2008)

By US color and genetics a Fawn and a Tort are related yet diffrent. Tort - aaB-C-D-ee Fawn - A-B-C-ddee in some breeds Fawn must be diluted and in others such at the Lionhead Fawn is not wanted diluted so it's code is A-B-C-D-ee. Basicly Fawn is either a diluted or none diluted Agouti Tort. Yes, makesyou want to smash your head on the desk :biggrin2:I even read on one site that in Lionheads Tort is Agouti, however this is not true unless you can prove it by DNA test and offspring. Even then it does not make every Tort Lionhead an Agouti.

As for Sooty Fawn here it is basicly a smutty Fawn or smutty Tort. I would think to be correct Tort should not fall under it but some breeders still consister it Sooty "Fawn".


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## Sabine (Nov 28, 2008)

according to the BRC site, the description for Sooty fawn:
[align=center]  Overall impression rich orange shading to dark soot black 'points' and belly. 
Back: rich orange shading to sooty tipped orange on the flanks, undercolour white. 
Belly: sooty black. Undercolour orange and white. 
Smut, ears, feet and tail also sooty. 
Eyes brown 
Nails light or dark horn. 
Genotype _aaB-C-D-ee_[/align]  

 [/align]and in comparison the description for tortoiseshell:

Overall impression rich orange shading to soot black restricted to the 'points' and belly. 
Back: rich orange shading to sooty tipped orange on the lower flanks, undercolour white. 
Belly: sooty black. Undercolour orange and white. 
Smut, ears, feet and tail also sooty. 
Eyes brown 
Nails light or dark horn. 
Genotype _aaB-C-D-ee _

See why I'm confused


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## pamnock (Nov 28, 2008)

Same color just different names. We have many examples here in the US where the same color is called a different name depending on breed. For example chestnut agouti, castor, gray.



Pam


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## Sabine (Nov 28, 2008)

I see. So when I try to learn about colours i should probably look at a specific breed rather than looking at them in general


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## NZminilops (Nov 28, 2008)

The BRC colour things can be confusing! Also blue tort in the US is beige here, so it's not even called "dilute sooty fawn" or anything like I would imagine it should be, or "blue sooty fawn". But the other sooty fawn varients are called by colour, i.e chocolate sooty fawn and lilac sooty fawn.

Sorry for posting in here when I'm not a breeder as I know that's frowned apon, but I am a keen enthusiast.


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## Sabine (Nov 28, 2008)

I love to hear from anyone who has any knowledge. I am still learning and appreciate any input. Next thing I'm trying to learn is to crack the Genotype code. I assume capital letters stand for dominant and small for recessive. That's as far as my Knowledge (or lack of it) goes


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## Sabine (Nov 28, 2008)

That blue tort can be called beige is beyond me. It's a shame that often the colour description isn't accompanied by a picture. That's the only way I remember


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## TinysMom (Nov 28, 2008)

*NZminilops wrote: *


> Sorry for posting in here when I'm not a breeder as I know that's frowned apon, but I am a keen enthusiast.


Oh no - we have NO problem with you posting here.

What we have a problem with - is folks who don't believe in breeding at all - coming into this forum to condemn folks for breeding. It would be the same way if you had a breeder going into the rescue area and saying,"you shouldn't rescue bunnies but instead get them from a breeder..". Each part of the forum is designed for a specific purpose...and in this case - this part is to discuss breeding by people who are interested in it and don't condemn it.


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## pamnock (Nov 28, 2008)

*NZminilops wrote: *


> The BRC colour things can be confusing! Also blue tort in the US is beige here, so it's not even called "dilute sooty fawn" or anything like I would imagine it should be, or "blue sooty fawn". But the other sooty fawn varients are called by colour, i.e chocolate sooty fawn and lilac sooty fawn.
> 
> Sorry for posting in here when I'm not a breeder as I know that's frowned apon, but I am a keen enthusiast.



We used to also have beige here in the US, but it was dropped from the standard a while ago. We had a lot of general redundant color names that were dropped when each breed starting using their own color standards.

Pam


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## pamnock (Nov 28, 2008)

*Sabine wrote: *


> I love to hear from anyone who has any knowledge. I am still learning and appreciate any input. Next thing I'm trying to learn is to crack the Genotype code. I assume capital letters stand for dominant and small for recessive. That's as far as my Knowledge (or lack of it) goes



I have a website with a lot of genotypes listed http://www.geocities.com/pamnock/

Unfortunately, I haven't had time to do any recent work on it, but it does have a lot of photos.

Capital letters are dominant and lower case are recessive.

Pam


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## NZminilops (Nov 28, 2008)

It can be very confusing :?.

I found this article to be a huge help for me, I read it and then I would test myself by looking at pictures of rabbits online and guessing their colours and basic genotypes.

http://www.rabbits-nz.co.nz/resources/publications_details.asp?catID=9&name=Books&bhcp=1

It's in the BRC colour terms which is good, but it's a PDF file so you have that adobe PDF thing or something similar.

Pam has an excellent website showing colours and names, not too many are different from how we say them the Brit way . Just substitute tort for sooty fawn and silver marten for fox. If you look on her profile the link will be in there.

Edit: hehe guess I was a bit slow as Pam has posted a link!


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## Sabine (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks everyone. i usually get a kick out of going to pet shops and trying to name the breeds (or mixes more like it) I just love it when I'm right..... I must work on thegenotype thing


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## Sabine (Nov 29, 2008)

Thanks Pam, your site is really useful. I like the drawings, going by photographs can sometimes be misleading, I've saved the link and will use it as my reference guide


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