# *rant* 4-H



## danielles_pets1 (Aug 11, 2014)

Sorry about it being a rant and all. But i have noticed alot of people in my 4-h group showing little to no compassion for their rabbits. This is where it gets a little well, graphic for the weak hearted (for lack of a better word). Everyone else butchers their rabbits. I can understand for food but, oh no thats not all. They also butcher them if they dont meet breed standards, or if they are too old and cant breed. I noticed a convo between two fello 4-h'ers and they were talking about butchering rabbits like it was some kind of sport/competition! *it gets a little graphic here* one of the people even posted to facebook talking about how she butchered a rabbit and found red spots on its lungs! She said she cut open the lung and there was blood in it, so the rabbit had lung cancer! *end of graphic-ness* I just get so frustrated! They leave their rabbits outside, barely clean the cages, only ever acknowledge the rabbits existence when its time to breed, butcher, or show (besides feeding and watering)! Yes, our rabbits live in our garage but, we bring ours in one at a time for a long time each day. I get disgusted going over to their houses because of the fact the cages are filthy and WAY WAY too small! And the rabbits live on JUST wire floors, so lots of them have broken toes. I came into 4-h thinking people would love their animals, not treat them like tools! I feel like leaving 4-h now, every time i go, i just get sad  Anyway, just needed to rant, thank you for your time!


----------



## iLuvMyLilBuns (Aug 12, 2014)

I'm so sorry that you're having a bad experience. I just want to say I'm in 4-H and you shouldn't leave just because of these people, not everyone is like them.. There are many many many people in 4-H that care for their rabbits


----------



## squidpop (Aug 12, 2014)

I think it would be good for people like you to stay in 4h so you can be a good example to others. 4h is meant to teach young people about good animal husbandry and ethical raising of livestock. So, anyone who can teach the others to be humane within the organization helps.


----------



## Azerane (Aug 12, 2014)

I can certainly understand your frustration. If the rabbits are not being well taken care of it's certainly an issue. However people do have different views on animal husbandry, they can all be ethical, but not everyone will agree with them. Eg, keeping a house rabbit with lots of free run time and interaction, vs a rabbit outside in suitable hutch that's well cleaned and maintained but not spending time with the rabbit otherwise. They simply have a different outlook on rabbits as companion (or not companion) animals.

Having said that, if the animals are being mistreated then it's certainly an issue. Do you have a supervisor or similar that you can express your concerns to?


----------



## majorv (Aug 12, 2014)

I agree with Azerane. Some people view their rabbits as pets and some view them as livestock. Obviously, those kids view them as the latter. That's not to say they shouldn't keep their cages clean, provide a tile or pad for the rabbits to rest on off the wire floor, etc... It's not unusual to open a rabbit up and try to figure out how they died. I couldn't do it but I know of those who will. Just think of this as a learning experience.


----------



## OakRidgeRabbits (Aug 12, 2014)

I'm sorry you're upset by the circumstances, but I agree with others.

[GRAPHIC - PET OWNERS DO NOT READ]

Euthanizing rabbits that do not meet breed standards or are too old is a common and ethical process. Not everyone sees it that way. However, this reality is beneficial to rabbits as a whole. If everyone "saved" every single rabbit that was produced, they would be in the same position as dogs and cats - gross overpopulation with nowhere to turn. At the same time, if we cut back on breeding (therefore producing less rabbits), we would be years and years behind in improving the health and quality of life for the rabbits we produce.

Euthanizing animals is a necessary evil in any breeding program.

Likewise, wire floors are just fine and many breeds do well on them. My rabbits live primarily on wire, and I've never seen broken toes or sore hocks. The breeds I have simply aren't susceptible to those issues, and they stay clean and healthy on wire. The size of the cages is subjective too. Pet owners may prefer their rabbits have run of an entire room, but that doesn't mean a rabbit can't thrive in a small space. In fact, many rabbits prefer small spaces to large ones.

The one thing that DOES bother me about your post is the messy cages. Rabbits, for any purpose, deserve a clean environment. Maybe you could talk with your friends and encourage them to improve in that area.


----------



## danielles_pets1 (Aug 12, 2014)

OakRidgeRabbits said:


> I'm sorry you're upset by the circumstances, but I agree with others.
> 
> [GRAPHIC - PET OWNERS DO NOT READ]
> 
> ...



The cages bother me too, and i have tried to talk to them but to no avail. And i do it as nice as possible, but then they say i dont know anything about raising a rabbitry. I just tend to bite my tounge and butt out now. But the cages tend to be 2x2 , which to me seems too small. But anyway, i just needed to rant and get it off my chest


----------



## majorv (Aug 13, 2014)

If the rabbits are Californians or New Zealand then, yes, a 2' x2' cage is too small. I don't even see how they could raise a litter in a cage that small...unless the kids have small breeds. Anyway, you did what you could.


----------



## memakwed (Aug 13, 2014)

As a parent of a 4-Her and 4-H leader I am sorry to hear of your situation. Are you new to 4-H rabbitry? Is that why they tell you that you know nothing about having a rabbitry? Have you asked them why they butcher rabbits that don't meet the standard instead of selling as pet quality and not show quality rabbits? Have you considered doing 4-H independently instead of in this particular club or switching clubs? While we do many projects only my son does rabbitry. We do not breed or butcher. He treats them as pets and loves them. I do know the level 1 project book talks about the purpose of your rabbit. Pet, fur, meat, bi-products. Also raising a doe and litter. Level 2 is focused on showing and ARBA standards. Where are you in the project? Where are they in the project? You can pick the points of the project you would like to focus on as well. This may be viable if you work independently. I would be disheartened with these people and the group but not with 4-H. There is a way to resolve the issues that bother you. Also in book one it gives you info on appropriate cage sizes for the size of the rabbit. If it is a mini breed a 2x2 should be fine, a commercial breed or large breed should be in a larger cage. Also smaller breeds are fine on wire while larger breeds that tend to have sore hocks should have a solid surface. Also did they dissect the rabbit because they are combining the rabbitry project with perhaps veterinary science? I hope I was able to give you information as well as questions to ask your club to clear up the issues that seem to bother you and make it hard to enjoy 4-H.


----------



## danielles_pets1 (Aug 13, 2014)

Im kind of new, but its almost been a year now. Ive asked, but then i get yelled at again and called a stupid teenager (im 14 and the others are 16-19 and a few young ones). Now i bite my toung and stay out of it, my dad said to do that, since other people wont listen. I might look for another club to join. Our club doesnt go by levels for some reason, they butcher for the other reasons listed above. The group doesnt do small breeds, they do New Zealands and Himalayans. We are not a part of any veterinary science. I will most likely look for a different club.


----------



## danielles_pets1 (Aug 13, 2014)

memakwed said:


> As a parent of a 4-Her and 4-H leader I am sorry to hear of your situation. Are you new to 4-H rabbitry? Is that why they tell you that you know nothing about having a rabbitry? Have you asked them why they butcher rabbits that don't meet the standard instead of selling as pet quality and not show quality rabbits? Have you considered doing 4-H independently instead of in this particular club or switching clubs? While we do many projects only my son does rabbitry. We do not breed or butcher. He treats them as pets and loves them. I do know the level 1 project book talks about the purpose of your rabbit. Pet, fur, meat, bi-products. Also raising a doe and litter. Level 2 is focused on showing and ARBA standards. Where are you in the project? Where are they in the project? You can pick the points of the project you would like to focus on as well. This may be viable if you work independently. I would be disheartened with these people and the group but not with 4-H. There is a way to resolve the issues that bother you. Also in book one it gives you info on appropriate cage sizes for the size of the rabbit. If it is a mini breed a 2x2 should be fine, a commercial breed or large breed should be in a larger cage. Also smaller breeds are fine on wire while larger breeds that tend to have sore hocks should have a solid surface. Also did they dissect the rabbit because they are combining the rabbitry project with perhaps veterinary science? I hope I was able to give you information as well as questions to ask your club to clear up the issues that seem to bother you and make it hard to enjoy 4-H.



Also, maybe i could do a rescue to? I dont know, i just love animals. How did you guys start your rescue? Where do you tend to get the animals? I was just wondering, because it seems really amazing.


----------



## memakwed (Aug 14, 2014)

As a first year rabbirty project you should be learning about showmanship ( as in how to flip your rabbit correctly) learning the parts of your rabbits, hind quarter, loin, dewlap ect. uses of rabbits and so on. Some projects you don't have your own individual book but you always have the option to get one if you wanted to do a project notebook for fair. This could be a way for you to know what you should be learning and making them more accountable for their actions in front of you and what they do. Honestly I would just find another club or go independent because it should be fun and if you're uncomfortable that's not fun or fair.


----------



## memakwed (Aug 14, 2014)

You're 14 and while you I'm sure think you are old enough to do many things you will definitely need support from your family to even think about rescuing. You can't save everyone and you have to be able to financially afford their daily care as well as medical care. While we rescue rabbits we are not a rescue. We have started researching it and think we would more likely fall into a sanctuary verses rescue so some day I'm sure we'll be official but right now we're just decent people helping where we can. Rescuing happened by accident honestly and there are so many stories of how we acquired our buns but we don't seek animals out they usually find us somehow. 
My husband has lost his garage. They each have their own cage and then a play yard with tunnels. It takes hours of work every day. We go through bales of hay, bags of pellets and countless veggies. You not only need money for this but space. You also need a quarantine area to keep new rabbits from the existing herd so illnesses aren't spread. For us that means our living room turns into a bunny zone for 4 weeks. A good vet is a must too, to help deal with what comes your way and bringing back to full health.


----------



## danielles_pets1 (Aug 14, 2014)

memakwed said:


> You're 14 and while you I'm sure think you are old enough to do many things you will definitely need support from your family to even think about rescuing. You can't save everyone and you have to be able to financially afford their daily care as well as medical care. While we rescue rabbits we are not a rescue. We have started researching it and think we would more likely fall into a sanctuary verses rescue so some day I'm sure we'll be official but right now we're just decent people helping where we can. Rescuing happened by accident honestly and there are so many stories of how we acquired our buns but we don't seek animals out they usually find us somehow.
> My husband has lost his garage. They each have their own cage and then a play yard with tunnels. It takes hours of work every day. We go through bales of hay, bags of pellets and countless veggies. You not only need money for this but space. You also need a quarantine area to keep new rabbits from the existing herd so illnesses aren't spread. For us that means our living room turns into a bunny zone for 4 weeks. A good vet is a must too, to help deal with what comes your way and bringing back to full health.



Yes i know, ive had 10 rabbits at one point. Of corse my dad would help out, hes just as much an animal lover as i am. I have all the necessities. I wasnt talking about a spur of the moment kind of thing, i knew it would take some time. Sorry, i put it wrong, i didnt mean a full out rescue. I ment something small.


----------



## memakwed (Aug 15, 2014)

If you have the full support from your family and monetary means to provide perhaps adopt from a shelter or perhaps contact a local rescue to be a foster home.


----------

