# Another Tall Tale -- Enzymes



## pamnock (Jun 14, 2005)

I spent the day playing around with enzymes and using mega amounts to see what substances I could break down. Worked well for DNA/RNA extraction, but that was about the extent of it as there negligible effect on foods or hair.

Which got me to thinking -- if mega amounts ofcommon enzymes given to rabbitsare so ineffective in breaking substances down, how can they be of any help in treating rabbits with GI blockages. Most likely -- they can't. I've seen no positive effects in wasting money on the numerous enzyme products available for rabbits -- and I'm not the only one who has taken note that these artificial enzymes are so ineffective . . .

Pam

Here's a myth buster from the House Rabbit Society . . 

*MYTH:*

*"Pineapple juice, papaya and/or enzyme products are helpful in treating hair-balls in the rabbit."

*Because the rabbit cannot spit, it ingests a lot of hair when grooming. It is commonly thought that this ingested hair leads to gastric hair-balls ("gastric stasis," see above). For at least three decades rabbit owners have treated this problem with a host of digestive enzyme products including pineapple juice, papaya, or papaya tablets (all of which contain the digestive enzyme papain), or a number of pharmaceutical enzyme products including Prozyme, Viokase and many more. *Several well performed scientific studies have shown that these products neither correct nor prevent the accumulation of hair, nor will they dissolve the accumulation of food and hair that forms in the stomach of the rabbit.* We have found, however, that pineapple juice may have some positive effect in the rehydration and return of normal stomach acid levels in the stomach contents of rabbits with gastric stasis.


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## Spiced77 (Jun 14, 2005)

for whatever reason i always thought papaya/pineapple were to help keep everything going  and as i've recently found out, too much can *really* get their systems going:shock:


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##  (Jun 14, 2005)

So I take it as :

Rather than spend a huge amountof money on Prescription medicationsto treat G I Stasis its just aseasy and cost effective touse Plain old from thePineapple Juice ? is thisthe right assumption ?


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## pamnock (Jun 14, 2005)

*gypsy wrote: *


> So Itake itas :
> 
> Rather than spenda huge amount ofmoney onPrescriptionmedications to treat G I Stasisits just aseasy andcosteffective tousePlainold from thePineappleJuice ? isthistherightassumption ?




The enzymes in the pineapple juice don't appear to have any effect in treating GI stasis, however any low/no sugar juice is good to use to rehydrate the rabbit.

Good old fiber, "nature's scrub brush" is key in keeping the GI tract healthy. Enzymes do not appear to be effective in preventing or treatment of GI blockages.

Pam


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## FreddysMom (Jun 14, 2005)

I had read that papaya and pineapple help to break down the mucous that can form around/in the hairball and thats what makes it pass easier b/c of the reduction in size...


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## Carolyn (Jun 14, 2005)

Question Doc.

Then what would've caused Tucker's chin to become bald when I was treating him for GI Stasis with fresh pineapple juice? 

There was nothing else that I was giving him at the time that 'ran over' onto his fur when I was syringe feeding him. 

Respectfully submitted,
-Carolyn


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## pamnock (Jun 14, 2005)

*FreddysMom wrote:*


> I had read that papaya and pineapple help to break down the mucous that can form around/in the hairball and thats what makes it pass easier b/c of the reduction in size...




It doesn't appear to actually have any effect at all.Research has shown the enzymes are very "job" specific -- while our digestive enzymes do their work in breaking down food, enzymes we add from other sources appear to have no effect.

"Preventive measures such as lubricants and enzymes have not been clinically proven to be effective . . ." *JosieThompson, DVM*



"there is no evidence that bromelain or papain can degrade hair; a hairball incubated in vitro with bromelain showed no outward changes after several days. We conducted an experiment to determine whether any of these treatments were truly effective. Equal amounts of rabbit hair were incubated at 100 F (38C) (the rabbitï¿½s approximate body temperature) in papaya, Viokase-V, and pineapple juice solutions. As a control, normal physiological saline was used for an additional sample. All were adjusted to a pH of 2.0 with 6M Hcl to simulate the acid content of the rabbitï¿½s stomach and incubated for 24, 48, and 72 hours. When the hair was washed and dried after the treatment periods, there was no significant difference between any of the treatments and the control for any of the time periods. Although none of these treatments exhibited any ability to dissolve hair, it is possible that they may aid in the breakdown of trichobezoars by dissolving the proteinaceous matrix that binds them together." 

It is advisable to add fresh vegetables to the diet of a rabbit suffering from wool block_.. . "http://members.aol.com/bcwooly/hairballs.html_







Pam


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## pamnock (Jun 14, 2005)

*Carolyn wrote: *


> Question Doc.
> 
> Then what would've caused Tucker's chin to become bald when I was treating him for GI Stasis with fresh pineapple juice?
> 
> ...


Anysticky substance syringe fed to a rabbit will result in hair loss around the mouth. (In fact,even water keeping the skin moist can result in hair loss). 

Cut off some rabbit hair and soak it in pineapple juice for a day --you'll find the enzymes to have absolutely no effect. Hair does not degrade easily, nor does it digest (as you can tell by the fur present in droppings during a molt). The only common household substance I've found that will dissolve hair is full strength bleach -- and you can't feed that to a rabbit.

Pam


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## FreddysMom (Jun 14, 2005)

heh...this might be a good topic for my independent study at school...im a biotech major and we have to eventually run our own study...id have everything under the sun to try and break down the hair with...and certainly plenty of bunny hair most likely something along the lines that would break down keratin and sulfide .... who knows maybe something will come out of it!


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## pamnock (Jun 14, 2005)

*FreddysMom wrote:*


> heh...this might be a good topic for my independent study at school...im a biotech major and we have to eventually run our own study...id have everything under the sun to try and break down the hair with...and certainly plenty of bunny hair most likely something along the lines that would break down keratin and sulfide.... who knows maybe something will come out of it!




Hope you get started on it soon! We'll look forward to seeing the results posted!

Pam


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## Carolyn (Jun 14, 2005)

Okay, excluding the fresh pineapple juice as helpful in Tucks recovering from his severe case of GI Stasis, what do you think it was that got him over it?

The canned pumpkin for the fiber he wasn't getting, and/or the NutriCal - with all of its values?


-Carolyn


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## cirrustwi (Jun 14, 2005)

I've never really put any stock in that thought with any of my animals. I've had lots of chemistry and had kind of come to the same conclusion, but I've not had any real proof, so I never said anything. My rabbits won't drink pineapple juice anyway. They get lots of fiber in their pellets, hay and canned pumpkin.

Jen


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## pamnock (Jun 14, 2005)

*Carolyn wrote:*


> Okay, excluding the fresh pineapple juice as helpful in Tucks recovering from his severe case of GI Stasis, what do you think it was that got him over it?
> 
> The canned pumpkin for the fiber he wasn't getting, and/or the NutriCal - with all of its values?
> 
> -Carolyn




I've had rabbitsrecover from serious blockages using every method in the bookfrom doing absolutely nothing to doing absolutely everything. Nutri Cal, enzymes, pineapple juice, gator aid, vinegar (to alter ph), hay, greens, etc. etc. So far, there is no single method that is considered to be the "magic cure" for GI stasis.

I've had rabbits that went downhill so far that I'd never thought they'd recover - yet miraculously didand lost others that did not appear to be as ill.

Studies indicate that none of the common enzymes we give to rabbits are effective in breaking down blockages in any way nor do they appear to have any effect in aiding digestion.

Pam


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## Carolyn (Jun 14, 2005)

Thank you, Pam. urplepansy:

This information helps me a lot. 



-Carolyn


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## PepperGrl (Jun 15, 2005)

If only I would have seen this a few hours ago... today at the store I just stocked up on Pineapple juice and canned pumpkin... being a shedding season and all :?. This is good info to know though... still curious to see if anyone finds anything really proven to help... GI stasis seems to be such a problem in rabbits... I hope something helpful gets discovered

~ Jamie


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## holland (Jun 15, 2005)

I'm so glad that I read this, as I am having problems with a 3 wk old doe. I've tried everything I have on hand, and was about to make a trip to get some pineapple. I'm giving her an ORT solution, hay, and oats, not that she's eating just yet, but she is still drinking. I just wish I knew what I was doing wrong. It seems to only be effecting our does.


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## RaspberrySwirl (Jun 15, 2005)

I'm copying this and putting it into my binder for permanent reference. 

There is always so much confusion in these issues. If and when Sebastian gets sick, I want to have a hardcopy that I can refer toina time that I know I will be emotionally distraught and more apt to make less informed decisions.

Thanks Pam! 

Raspberry


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## pamnock (Jun 15, 2005)

Information from Mayo clinic also stated that there is no proven evidence that digestive enzymes are effective in aiding digestion in humans, and that in some cases, mega doses of these enzymes may be harmful.

There is evidence however, that these enzymes may have anti-inflammatory properties.



Pam


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## RaspberrySwirl (Jun 15, 2005)

*pamnock wrote: *


> There is evidence however, that these enzymes may have anti-inflammatory properties.
> 
> 
> 
> Pam


Now I find this VERY interesting! A few years ago when I was struggling with my Lupus so much, I had terrible joint pain. A family friend suggested that I drink grapefruit juice several times a day. She said it was an "old fashioned" way of dealing with arthritis. 

My doctors were having no luck with medication and I was nearly out of my mind in pain. I ended up trying it and within 2-3 weeks felt much better! When I told my doctor about it, she said it was probably the power of suggestion or that perhaps my Lupus had cycled back through to a more manageable pain level for me.

I kept drinking the juice for a while but eventually quit because I hated the way it tasted. 

Maybe I will go look at those studies again. I have two daughters with Juvenile Rheumatoid Arthritis, I have Lupus and I have a sister with Rheumatoid Arthritis. The more natural approach is very appealing to me! 

Raspberry


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## Carolyn (Jun 15, 2005)

TO: Pam Nock 

Dear Friend,

I have to tell you, Pam, ever since I read this post, I've been on edge.

As you know, Tucker is prone to GI Stasis. I'm having more than a houseful at my place the night before the Boathouse Party. I thought of the heavy traffic being scary for Tucks, but I figured that I had a remedy should he get upset and go into GI Stasis. 

Having read this new information about pineapple juice, it made me question everything.

By some miracle, Tucker came out of GI Stasis with the formula I was giving him. I don't know what it was that eventually got his system going again, but somewhere in that mix, something worked. 

I can't quote you verbatim, but you said something along the lines to me once that, "You gather all the information you can, you put it together, and figure out what works for your rabbit." 

Some things work for some rabbits, and some things don't. Not sure I'm willing to completely discount the findings on the pineapple juice, as it's the mucus that breaks down - which you know, not the fur. Perhaps it was the anti-inflammatory aspect of the juice that helped? I don't know. All I know is that my rabbit is still alive.

I'll follow this study with great interest. 

-Carolyn


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## pamnock (Jun 15, 2005)

Most certainly Carolyn!

Much Love,

Pam


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## Carolyn (Jun 15, 2005)

Pam,

I know that some people swear by the pineapple juice. From what I've read (and if I understand it correctly), is that you'd have to be cautious if the gas is because of the bacteria, Clostridia. That being the case, the sugar will make it grow.

In light of that and in your opinion, should you treat with simethicone first, and for how long before, then give the fresh pineapple juice?


-Carolyn


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## pamnock (Jun 15, 2005)

Ideally -- I'd go with a lactated ringers drip 

Correct electrolyte balance and will keep the rabbit and the intestines well hydrated as well as keeping the kidneys well flushed. In fatal cases, the rabbitoften succumbs to kidney failure, so it is important to keep them functioning and flushing toxins out.

Pam


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## Carolyn (Jun 15, 2005)

pamnock wrote:


> Ideally -- I'd go with a lactated ringers drip ?
> 
> Correct electrolyte balance and will keep the rabbit and the intestines well hydrated as well as keeping the kidneys well flushed.? In fatal cases, the rabbit?often succumbs to kidney failure, so it is important to keep them functioning and flushing toxins out.
> 
> Pam



Have heard of people that swear by the petro-base laxative.

Do you suggest a certain brand?

-Carolyn


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## pamnock (Jun 15, 2005)

Some experts have said it can be dangerous to use any type of laxatives (I haven't found much success with them). Some warn against any petroleum based products for rabbitsas it is suspected it may bind to the blockage. However, there are brands of petro based products such as petromalt for rabbits on the market.

Petro based products are more commonly used for cats anddogs.

Mineral oil is commonly used in horses, but I haven't heard if it is safe to tube a rabbit with it. (It is not recommende to syringe mineral oil into a rabbits mouth due to the danger of aspiration).

Haven't had any more luck using petro products than any of the other methods.

I start to give Nutri Cal as soon as the rabbit goes off its feed.

Pam


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## Carolyn (Jun 16, 2005)

Papaya tablets have a lot of sugar in them, and the amount of enzymes you want to get from those tablets are minimal. Make sure that when/if you purchase papaya tablets, you check the ingredients and it says no sugar added.

* * * 

Pam,

Assuming that the juices form some nutrition over growth of bacteria in the gut, would it get them to drink more?


-Carolyn


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## pamnock (Jun 16, 2005)

*Carolyn wrote:*


> Papaya tablets have a lot of sugar in them, and the amount of enzymes you want to get from those tablets are minimal. Make sure that when/if you purchase papaya tablets, you check the ingredients and it says no sugar added.
> 
> * * *
> 
> ...




If they do have GI stasis, it's difficult to get them to drink. Greens are an excellent way to get moisture as well as complex carbs into the gut -- but as you have mentioned -- stubborn Tucker won't eat them 

Pam


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## Carolyn (Jun 16, 2005)

As always, thank you, Pam.

-Carolyn


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##  (Jun 16, 2005)

I am not goingto even try toexplain why i dont understand all this :But i have a few coments and amega Question for Pam andfor any one else who might know

First I would never stop usingpineapple and Pumpkin when arabbit is Ill the benifitoutweighs the other alternative. Same with all natural Papya tablets, the risk would betoo high . 

Now for the explination and the big question 

My Bun Bun a 3 yr old Buckand the light of mylife went off his feed and water thru thenasty heat wave we just experienced, tried giving him all thefirst thought stuff like the pineapple ,pumpkin pa[ya etc he would have no partof it . I was litterally watching himdehydrate before my very eyes ,( very distressing ) needlessto say losing this Rabbit wasntan option for me , Not only would I havebeen devistated but my 8 yearold Grandaughter would have beenheartbroken ( Her Rabbit ) . 

Now for the Question (knowing full well it is a huge NO NO )

I decided to give Mr Bun Bun a 3 finger pinchof Ice Burge lettuce soakedtill it could notdraw up any more fluids , I did this for2 days , once a day finally Icould see he was rehydratingand was back to nibbling on his pelletsand was finally drinking fromhis bottle again , ( this was before theheat broke yesterday )

the Q : Did I dothe right thing in giving him thelettuce OR was I just foolingmyself into thinking I had donethe right thing , Would hehave eventually came round to eating onhis own ? or could this haveactually helped him . Its not somethingI would ever do on a contnuing basis but If I am correctthinking it may have helped this time ,couldit be an option whenStasis sets in before you canconsult a Vet ?

omg I am not even sureI typed this correctly and gotmy collective thoughts to come togetherand say what i really mean .


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## Buck Jones (Jun 16, 2005)

Correct me please, but am I missing the fact that the enzymes *do*have an effect upon the mucous that holds the hairball together, but *not *the hair itself.?

Buck


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## pamnock (Jun 16, 2005)

*Buck Jones wrote:*


> Correct me please, but am I missing the fact that the enzymes *do*have an effect upon the mucous that holds the hairball together, but *not *the hair itself.?
> 
> Buck




It's not actually known if the artificial enzymes we feed have any effect at all on the compounds surrounding the blockage.Enzymes are very "job specific" and may not break down any of the mucous chemical compounds.

Time for more experiments?  

I will gather intestinal mucous and examine the effects of enzymes 

Pam


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## RaspberrySwirl (Jun 16, 2005)

*pamnock wrote: *


> I will gather intestinal mucous and examine the effects of enzymes
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:shock:


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## pamnock (Jun 16, 2005)

Interestingly, the mucosa itself contains enzymes to break down foods, so may actually be helping rather than hindering the process of moving the blockage through.

Thecause of GI stasis is most commonly viral which slows the gut and promotes the propagation of harmful bacterias. This is the reason antibiotics are sometimes successful in combating GI stasis.

Just like humans suffering from the flu -- fluids, fluids, and more fluids! The most efficient way to get enough fluids into a rabbit would be through a drip.

Gypsy -- instead of the iceburg lettuce, I'd opt for the dark, leafy greens that are higher in the complex carbs. You're certainly on the right track that leafy greens are a good way to hydrate the gut. Be careful not to over do greens with rabbits not used to them.

Pam


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## Carolyn (Jun 16, 2005)

*pamnock wrote: *


> It's not actually known if the artificial enzymes we feed have any effect at all on the compounds surrounding the blockage.Enzymes are very "job specific" and may not break down any of the mucous chemical compounds.
> 
> Time for more experiments?




Very interesting. Let us know what you find, Pam. 

-Carolyn


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## Carolyn (Jun 16, 2005)

As stated by Rick Stahl:"Since the enzymes (I like meat tenderizer) do work in breaking up the fur balls and since the enzymes cannot dissolve fur, the logical and accepted explanation is that they dissolve the gastric mucous that binds the fur together into a ball. This has been demonstrated on fur balls surgical removed from rabbits' stomachs. I have no doubts that it is what happens."


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## pamnock (Jun 16, 2005)

The number of rabbits we have as well as also having a breed genetically prone to GI stasis has given me the opportunity to try many different treatments over the years. 

The most compelling evidence is what I have seen in my own barn. 

Mega amounts of enzymes have been nor more effective than any other treatment. I've found dandelion leaves and Nutri Cal to work just as well as anything else.

Pamink iris:


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## pamnock (Jun 16, 2005)

Simethecone is very good to use in cases of bloat. I've also read that baking soda can be helpful.

*http://bunnyluadoptions.org/_wsn/page2.html*

*http://members.iinet.net.au/~rabbit/linartrab.htm*

*Pam*


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## Carolyn (Jul 14, 2005)

*pamnock wrote: *


> I've also read that baking soda can be helpful.




That's news to me! Never heard it before.

O/T Why would Buck have Bag Balm in his medical kit? Just curious as to what it helps?

-Carolyn


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## JimD (Jul 14, 2005)

*Carolyn wrote:*


> *pamnock wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Simethecone is very good to use in cases of bloat. I've also read that baking soda can be helpful.
> ...


Sore hocks maybe?? 

Per their website:

"Helps soothe cuts, scratches, skin irritations, and paw abrasions. Pets are in good hands with Bag Balm[suP]ï¿½[/suP]. For over 100 years, Bag Balm[suP]ï¿½[/suP] has been a fixture down on the farm. It goes on fastï¿½and stays on!"


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## FreddysMom (Jul 14, 2005)

The only thing ive seen bag balm used for is on new tattoos....it helps relieve the swelling and itchyness and to keep the skin moist...i was surprised to see it in there too


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## JimD (Jul 14, 2005)

*FreddysMom wrote:*


> The only thing ive seen bag balm used for is on new tattoos....it helps relieve the swelling and itchyness and to keep the skin moist...i was surprised to see it in there too


It was originally created to soften cow udders.

I can't find the list of what was in Buck's "bunnie box". Danielle wrote down everything that was in it. I wanted to post it, but now I can't find it! POOPIES!!! I think I may have left it at Carolyn's.

Oh well....I'll just have to go back to Carolyn's and make another list....and have some more beer...and have another BBQ....and have some more fun......but I think we'll pass on doing more fireworks .


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## Carolyn (Jul 14, 2005)

That's got to be it, Jim. He usually would recommend neosporin, but since there was none of that in his kit, your answer must be the one as Buck wouldn't tattoo his rabbits because they were pets.

Thanks! Looking forward to our next BBQ!! Already can't wait. :bunnydance:

-Carolyn


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## pamnock (Jul 14, 2005)

*Carolyn wrote:*


> That's got to be it, Jim. He usually would recommend neosporin, but since there was none of that in his kit, your answer must be the one as Buck wouldn't tattoo his rabbits because they were pets.
> 
> Thanks! Looking forward to our next BBQ!! Already can't wait. :bunnydance:
> 
> -Carolyn




Yes -- it's generally used to treat sore hocks -- can also be applied to "puddin' butts" to help keep them clean.

Pam


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## Lazyacre (Jul 14, 2005)

Carolyn, as noted in the article Pam quoted, the enzymes will not induce the rabbit gut to start moving again, at best it breaks up the proteins (mucous) holding the fur and other debris together, so that when the gut moves the contents may pass. They have no effect on the fur itself. If the GI Stasis isn't treated first the enzymes are useless. GI motility drugs (metoclopramide and cisapride) do have a place as they increase peristalsis, getting things moving and if any fur balls are broken up the debris can then be excreted.

Fur balls form because of GI Stasis, not cause it. If the gut is kept moving there will be not fur balls. When we raised Jersey Woolys we never had furballs or had to use any of the enzymic treatments. We fed extra hay during molt and to does pulling fur. This extra fiber worked to keep their guts moving and scrubbed. here is an old link http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/ileus.html

and this one (a little crude in title) from HRS

http://www.houserabbit.co.uk/rwf/articles/gi_stasis_pet.htm


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## Carolyn (Jul 14, 2005)

Thank you!

Wasn't sure that GI Stasis came before the fur block, although Pam has told that it's often found in? conjunction with a bacterial infection.?I thought the fur block is what caused it and/or the rabbit's immune system isn't keen enough to fight the infection, hence following would the be the fur block.? 

Thank you for the clarification folks!? 

-Carolyn


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## seniorcats (Jul 14, 2005)

*Lazyacre wrote:*


> Carolyn, as noted in the article Pam quoted, the enzymes will not induce the rabbit gut to start moving again, at best it breaks up the proteins (mucous) holding the fur and other debris together, so that when the gut moves the contents may pass. They have no effect on the fur itself. If the GI Stasis isn't treated first the enzymes are useless. GI motility drugs (metoclopramide and cisapride) do have a place as they increase peristalsis, getting things moving and if any fur balls are broken up the debris can then be excreted.
> 
> Fur balls form because of GI Stasis, not cause it. If the gut is kept moving there will be not fur balls. When we raised Jersey Woolys we never had fur balls or had to use any of the enzymic treatments. We fed extra hay during molt and to does pulling fur. This extra fiber worked to keep their guts moving and scrubbed. here is an old link http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/ileus.html
> 
> ...




Hi Rick and thanks for the information. Sowould this mean that using cat hairball remedies on rabbits is useless in the treatment of GI stasis? And possibly harmfull (based on the first article)?

A number of my friends use the hairball remedies on their rabbits but I prefer to increase the fiber.

Thanks for your response,

Ann


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## pamnock (Jul 14, 2005)

A bacterial infection (such as E. coli) can often follow the GI stasis. When the gut stops working properly, harmful bacteria often propagate. This is why antibiotics are helpful in some cases.

Pam


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## Lazyacre (Jul 14, 2005)

GI Stasis can have many causes, infection, bacterial or viral, antibiotics, and stress are just a few common causes. Whatever the reason, the rabbit will begin to have decreased intake as the gut slows down, stopping food intake and then not drinking. It doesn't take long for dehydration to set in. Eventually fur block may develop. Most important is to keep the rabbit eating while detirmining and treating the cause of the GI slowdown.

First sign of decreased appetite, I check to make sure the rabbit's water supply is working. Then I add fiber to the diet. Often added fiber is all that's needed to scrub out the GI tract and keep things going. If the rabbit wont eat or drink I syringe feed. I use banana flavored Ensure and Pedialyte, fed with a curved tip syringe. In servere cases I'll give lactated Ringers SQ (arthritis has made my IV techinque rather worthless). lacking LR Normal Saline (as in contact lense solutions) can be given. I give boluses of 5-10cc SQ under the skin. there are meds (such as Reglan- Rx only) which speed up intestinal movements and may get things moving, returning the appetite.I know from experience that enzymes, such as in meat tenderizers, do work to break up mucous and food particles in the gut, we used it to clear plugged NG feeding tubes in ourICU patients. But there is little use in breaking up any furball until the gut is moving. Paste type furball treatments may help to alleviate GI Stasis by laxative effect, drawing fluids from intestinal cells, softening contents (may also further dehydration though). This is how mineral oil helps, but as Pam said danger of aspiration pneumonia is great. for the adventerous, there is possibility of small mineral oil enemas.....


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## pamnock (Jul 14, 2005)

I also will give the rabbit some dandelion leaves ASAP when a rabbit goes off its feed.There's no way to prevent GI stasis, and some rabbits are more prone to blockage than others.

Pam


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## Lazyacre (Jul 14, 2005)

Dandilions are great tonic for rabbits, but I have to visit my neighbor's field to get em. Diligent gardening has eliminated them from my acre of lawnI like to use them for most rabbit ills. May not be able to prevent at least some slow down but complete blockage is usually preventable if caught soon enough.


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## seniorcats (Jul 14, 2005)

Here is some information I got last year from Len Donatao, VMD in Radnor, PA. He previously gave me permission to quote him. 

Last summer, a group of friends from the US and Canada came to my house for a bunny//human meet up (similar to Boat house Bunnies).One of my friends flew himself and his rabbit in from NY in a small Cessna. After returning home, his rabbit developed GI stasis and was successfully treated at Cornell. 

The following are some of Dr. Donato's thoughts on GI Stasis:

This happens to be what I refer to as my "soapbox" for rabbits. There is a very common misconception among many veterinarians that "stasis" is a diagnosis. Stasis is a clinical sign of another problem. Just like anemia is not a disease but an effect from disease. Some examples of things causing stasis in rabbits: chronic kidney failure, clostridial infections, inappropriate diet, liver infections, parasites like coccidia, and many many more.

The reason it is important to make the distinction is veterinarians can direct treatment toward the underlying problem and properly educate clients - result=better care for bunnies.

It sounds to me that the stress of flying had altered the cecal bacterial flora. Likely result-clostridial infection. Your veterinarian probably gave fluids either in the office and/or you gave them at home (many use juices or critical care) and a medication to take home. All things that get the bunnies through the crisis until they get better on their own.

Where the problem comes in is if there is some long standing disease(liver, kidney, cancer)- the bunny will get temporarily better and then start to decline again. Now precious time has been wasted on a problem that may have originally been simple and now has become complicated.

I have probably hours more to talk on this but I don't want to bombard everyone with details that put roomfuls of people to sleep.

(Dr. Donato was advised the bunnies spent time in the back yard in pens. I had cleared away the black walnut leaves, just incase, and some the bunnies munched on grass, clover and dandelions).

I didn't realize your bunny had been eating grass at the picnic. Certain grasses, even if they have had them before can also cause an imbalance in bacterial flora. Depends on type of grass/quantity/quality....
It sounds like that, on top of the plane ride caused the problem. I would not desensitize your bunny to plane rides. Too much stress for a "prey species" I would avoid it if you could. 
Hope this helped.. 

*****************************************************************

I thought the information might be useful.


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## pamnock (Jul 14, 2005)

Excellent info seniorcats. Also would like to add that some rabbits have a genetic predisposition to GI stasis.

Pam


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## seniorcats (Jul 14, 2005)

Thank you!

I no longer let my indoor bunnies munch grass outside because I can't control where the cats, raccoons, coyotes, foxes and birds have relieved themselves. I don't want them picking up coccidia or worse.

Ann


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## Lazyacre (Jul 14, 2005)

"Worse" is more of a worry, Coccidia are breed specific, rabbits only need fear exposure to feces of Coccidia carrying rabbits. More of a threat would be E cuniculu, which can infect other animals and immune suppressed humans. It is passed viaurine. Also Pin Worms eggs may be ingested on the grass.


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## FreddysMom (Jul 14, 2005)

wow! .. i really feel likei am in a lecture hall right now .. this is awesome how much info you can get from this forum


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##  (Jul 14, 2005)

OK Ihave been following this threadwith growing interest and Iperked on Dandilion leaves , 

My question is Howwould a Tea made from theleaves and then addedto their dailywater work , would itor could it be benificial ?

I know in humans Dandilion Teais a good stomachstimulant and soother depending on whichstrength is used . There inlays the problem withusing it in water bottles , Knowingwhich strength would bemost benificial . 

Please feel free to let me know if I a moff track with this ,it was just something thatpeaked my curiositty . Thanks .


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## pamnock (Jul 14, 2005)

Some people have touted green tea as a medicinal for rabbits. In some cases of GI stasis, the rabbit is not drinking on its own and it's tough to syringe enough liquids into it. In order to get it hydrated, it may be necessary to take it to the vet to be put on ringers solution.

So far, I haven't found any treatment to be effective in all cases. As well as the dandelion leaves, I give Nutri Cal to any rabbits that go off their feed.



Pam


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##  (Jul 14, 2005)

I agree onthe Nutri_ Cal I have 2 tubesone for the garage and one for the house, and latex free gloves forboth areas , unfortunatelyNutri_Cal has Iodine in it and I amhighly allergic , but thegloves keep me safe as long asI have a brain and dont forget to putthem on first .


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## seniorcats (Jul 14, 2005)

*Lazyacre wrote:*


> "Worse" is more of a worry, Coccidia are breed specific, rabbits only need fear exposure to feces of Coccidia carrying rabbits. More of a threat would be E cuniculu, which can infect other animals and immune suppressed humans. It is passed via urine. Also Pin Worms eggs may be ingested on the grass.




I didn't realize that coccidia is breed specific. The above information has me thinking about a friend's rabbit who passed away. I believe I posted here about it and I thinksome respondersmentioned enteritis.My friend'srabbit was a one year old neutered BEW lop, indoor rabbit. Diet was Manna Propellets, grass hay and the occassionalvegy//fruit treat. One day he was fine and then he had sudden massive, liquid diarrhea and collapse. His stool was negative for coccidia and worms. He was treated by a vet with antibiotics and fluidsbut passed away the same day.A necroscopy showed some inflammation in the intestines but was otherwise inconclusive.

What has me wondering is that my friend used to take her rabbits outside in the back yard where they nibbled grass, etc. She lives next door to the county fairground stables - literally the other side of the fence. I am wondering if something could have ended up on the lawn from the fairgrounds, for example, from snow melting or rainwater.

I guess I have always associated enteritis with much younger rabbits. Does it seem reasonable that there could have been a contaminant from the fair stables? Is enteritis common in adult rabbits? When I made my first post, I forgot to mention the bunny's age.


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##  (Jul 15, 2005)

I have had2 cases here with enteritis onewas a baby one was an adult ,the baby pulled thru with a lotof vetting but theAdult unfortunately didnt ,No matterwhat we ( Vet and I ) triedeven subQ didnt help . maybe Had I gottenher sooner it would have made a difference, she was also on a nest of 12babies . which also subsequently sucummed.


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## Lazyacre (Jul 15, 2005)

Sudden diarrhea and death is often due to endotoxins produced in the gut. If the rabbit gets too much carbohydrate bacteria use it as a growth medium and produce deadly toxins. Could also have been something else ingested from the yard that killed the normal flora of the gut, allowing pathogens to over grow and produce diarrhea. Usually the normal flora of the gut will keep the bad bugs in check. Maybe a herb acide or fertilizer from neighboring yard.

Mucoid Enteropathy normally doesn't involve inflammation of the gut (which is why it's name was changed from Mucoid Enteritis). It is normally due to a blockage of the hindgut, often from inadequate fiber in the diet of young rabbits. The cecum is blocked by impacted feed particles, allowing only mucous from intestinal wall cells to pass. Years ago it was found that it could be decreased by adding copper sulfate to rabbit pellets. Some use stool softeners, Simethicone and enemas tomove the blockage. Usually,by time it is discovered it is difficult to reverse. I feed the litters lots of fiber (hay or straw) as they come out of the nest box to make sure they've got plenty of coarse fiber to keep their guts scrubbed out, preventing blockage.

Non mucoid enteritis is usually due to infection, which would cause inflammation and liquid stool, the rabbit dies from dehydration. Neomycin is a good antibiotic in this instance, along with probiotics and hay.


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## JimD (Jul 15, 2005)

*FreddysMom wrote:*


> wow! .. i really feel likei am in a lecture hallright now .. this is awesome how much info you can get from this forum


Ditto!

pssst!...are ya takin notes??

Sharing this information has already given me a better understanding of the sequence of events that can occur.

This kind of information not only helps us to prevent and treat, but also can help our vets treat our bunnies if we can pass on something valuable to assit with diagnosis. 

Luckily our vet is rabbit savy, but she always takes the time to "discuss" issues rather than "tell" us what going on. We both end up with a good understanding of any situations and knowing that we're on the same page. 

Thanks All !

~JimD


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## Carolyn (Jul 15, 2005)

Since this talk of the enzymes, I'm wondering what it was that got Tucker through his GI Stasis. I had given these treatments to him every 4 hours for at least a week. He had completely stopped eating and pooping at the time. The animal hospital told me not even to bring him in; there was nothing they could do for him. I seem to remember his system 'opened up' after the Tetracycline and the cannedpumpkin. 

* * * * *

What I used to get Tucker out of this war with GI Stasis.

*Simethicone:* It's an infants' gas relief drops and you can purchase it at a pharmacy. The price I paid was $5.27. This helps the gas within the hairball to break down.

*Pedialyte:* In the baby section of a pharmacy. This helps prevent hydration. I paid $5.53

*Papaya Tablets:* Has to be the tablets. Papain is the ingredient you most want from the tablets. You can get these tablets at many grocery stores, a pharmacy, or a health food store. I paid about $5

*Tetracycline:* An antibiotic for the bacteria that can build as a result of the blockage. It can be purchased at a Tractor Supply Company store for $5 and change. You can get it at feed stores. It's claim to fame is an antibiotic for chickens, cattle, sheep and bees.

*NutriCal:* A dietary supplement that will keep your rabbit's nutrient supply going while he/she's not eating. It can be purchased at the same place as the Tetracycline usually. A feed store, Tractor Supply, or something of that line for about $10.

*Fresh Pineapple Juice:* Canned pineapple juice won't do the job of breaking down the hairball with the acids that fresh pineapple has. Grocery store, of course. 

*Canned Pumpkin:* It has to be canned.

*Syringes:* At least one 3 cc syringe purchased at pharmacy because chances are, you'll have to force feed many of the above.

You can use a meat tenderizer that has less sugar, but more salt. You'll find that if you ask 5 different professionals, they're advice will overlap and what one says isn't what another agrees with. 

In the end, it's your call. As Pamnock said to me, you just have to gather all the information you can, think of the research and make a decision as to what treatment you'll use.


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## pamnock (Jul 15, 2005)

Pain medications are also commonly used during supportive treatment.

Pam


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## Carolyn (Jul 15, 2005)

*pamnock wrote: *


> Pain medications are also commonly used during supportive treatment.
> 
> Pam




Bayer aspirin or baby aspirin is what comes to mind. What pain meds do you administer, Pam?

-Carolyn


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## bunnydude (Sep 29, 2005)

Are papaya tablets bad for them? I just order a bunch of stuff from Oxbow, including their papaya tablets. Can they be fed sparingly, like one a day or one a week or something?


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## Pet_Bunny (Sep 29, 2005)

I am feeding Pebbles2-3 papaya tablets a dayplus dried papaya as treats,and she is a pooping machinewhich I don't mind,because she isnearthe end of her molt now. 

Rainbows!


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## Lissa (Sep 29, 2005)

Wow! This thread is VERY informative.


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## FreddysMom (Oct 12, 2005)

ohhhhhh Pam I have a question for you .. I know you are always on the hunt and/or testing different options to treat GI Stasis....it was recently brought up and I went searching on the internet for things that break down keratin...

low and behold I found a medication that is used in both people and animals called Viokase ....

It is normally used for someone/animal who's pancreas is no longer working properly and cannot provide essential digestive enzymes for him/herself...

I found it interesting, b/c these enzymes are guaranteed to work in your stomach's/GI tracts acidic nature (Ive always had my doubts that bromelain and papain do anything b/c I really think they are degraded as soon as they hit the stomach or completely inactive due to the pH conditions)

and while I still dont know if they will break down the Keratin in the hair (which normally Keratin breaks down in basic pHenzymaticsolutions) it will for certain breakdown the mucous and food in the blockage...

sooo... I was just wondering if you have heard of its use and what you think of it .. or if you havent based on this what your opinion would be

and here is a link on the drug info (granted its the for ppl one.. but I doubt it changes much for animals except in the way of dosage)

http://www.drugs.com/PDR/Viokase_Tablets.html


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## pamnock (Oct 12, 2005)

There is currently no sure fire treatment for blockages (Trichobezoars composed of hair, fat &amp; mucus)due to GI stasis in humans or animals. 

Info on treating GI stasis:

http://members.aol.com/bcwooly/hairballs.html



*Treatment of gastric stasis and trichobezoars in the rabbit* consists of rehydration and dietary management. Rabbits with gastric stasis can have fluid imbalances and may resorb water from the GI contents. The mass of ingest a in the stomach needs to be rehydrated and in a slurry state to effectively pass through the pylorus. Fluids should be administered both enterally and parenterally. In stable patients, subcutaneous fluids (LRS) are administered at100 ml/kg/day. IV fluids are reserved for weak, shocky, and hypothermic rabbits. Oral fluids can consist of watered down juices (apple or pineapple) or vegetable baby food, or a commercial human product like Ensure. Rabbits who seem painful or have a lot of gaseous distension may benefit from 1-2 days of injectable NSAIDs like Banamine at 0.5-1 mg/kg. The motility modifiers metoclopramide (Reglan: 0.5 mg/kg, q8h) orcisapride (Propulsid: 0.5-1 mg/kg, q12h) can be used safely as long as the rabbit does not have a complete blockage or acute abdomen. Antibiotics may not be indicated unless the rabbit has diarrhea, or prolonged clinical disease. Improvement is usually seen in 2-4 days and consists of an increase in appetite and fecal output. *Heidi L. Hoefer, DVM-**San Diego County VMA ConferenceProceedings*


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## FreddysMom (Oct 12, 2005)

ahh I cant believe I forgot to include this..here is the article that mentioned its use .. scroll down to Enzymatic Digestive Aids.

http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/ileus.html


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## pamnock (Oct 12, 2005)

The link I posted http://members.aol.com/bcwooly/hairballs.htmldebated the effectiveness of treating blockages withViokase, and found that it didn't break up hair. It's safety and effectiveness for using it to treat blockages in rabbits is debatable and only used as a last ditch effort. While a possible course of treatment to consider when all else has failed, it is certainly no miracle drug.

The best things I have found to dissolve hair are drain cleaners, Nairand bleach. (Certainly none of these are safe to feed a rabbit). Any enzymes I have tried have had no effectin breaking apart the proteinsof the hair.



Pam


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## seniorcats (Oct 13, 2005)

One of my catswas taking Viokase andit was expensive, if I remember correctly. 

Pam, thanks for the link. The one and only time I had a rabbit with the start of GI stasis, my treatment was to up the salads with more high fiber vegy's, decrease the pellets a littleto encourage more hay eating and subcutaneous lactated ringers solution -about 75 ml's once a day for 2 days.

I didn't want to cut out the pellets, which a lot of people had advised me to do, because I thought an abrupt diet change would hurt more than it would help. I didn't use oatmeal either because of the high carbohydrates. It worked for us and bunny was fine by day 2

We always have Lactated Ringers, needles and tubing on hand because wehave several senior cats with Chronic Renal Failure. The get subcutaneous fluids twice a week to flush the kidneys - a home kitty kidney dialysis. The LR is about $3.50 a bag and 18 gauge needles are about $1.00 a dozen from our vet. Cheap and easy to use.


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## seniorcats (Oct 13, 2005)

What about psyllium fiber? Is it possible to use this for rabbits? There is one brand made for diabetics that is sugar free. It's a very fine grained tasteless powder. Has anyone tried this and how much is too much?


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## pamnock (Oct 13, 2005)

The most important factor seems to be to keep the rabbit hydrated. I also use Nutri Cal for supportive treatment.

Other foods can be given, however, remember that the GI tract is is stasis and that's what caused the blockage in the first place. This is often due to a viral/bacterial infection or genetic predisposition due to poor nerve development in the intestines. Stuffing fiber in may not help. The Nutri Cal is easily absorbed, so I prefer to use that.

Gut motility agents are sometimes used, but are not alway effective and may cause intestinal rupture.

Pam


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