# Nosematosis? Baby bunnies died!



## fossingen (Apr 9, 2013)

Hey. I'm new to this forum. I live in Sweden and can't really get so much information from people in their forums, well to the history and question now.

I have a bunny a black mixed with lionhead and netherland dwarf, she was mating with my male bunny which is a sable point marten lionhead. 
Anyways, they had babys before which were fine and all. 

But this time she had three baby bunnies, the first one died when it was almost 3 weeks, the second died when it was almost 4 weeks (wasnt at home then, found them dead when i got home). 

But the third one which was almost 5 weeks old i saw the symptoms. It started when i was about to give them food, i saw it in the corner of the cage and it didnt move or anything. So i took it up and it had no power in its legs, then it started to move its head very fast to the sides, i tried to comfort it. Then and put it back in its cage again, so there it started to fall on its side and the head was leaning on one side and it tried to walk and fell again. In my mind i knew it was going to die very quickly. So i let it be with its mother.

So after a little while i heard a big scream and i run to it and it's shaking like it was possessed, the head still tilted and it started to draw its head bakwards to its back and forth and kept doing so, then it opened its mouth and closed and did so many times like it coulnt breath properly, and then the whole rabbit started to shake and it was still screaming, then it just died..

The mother to the baby bunnies has no symptoms at all nor do the father. I got time for the vet in two days and will take bloodsamples.

Has anyone experienced anything like this before?
Can it possibly be what i think it is, whichi is Encephalitozoon cuniculi (also called Nosematosis or E cuni culi)?

Or can some other disease cause symptoms like this?
I heard pasteurella can?


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## JBun (Apr 9, 2013)

It does sound like it could have been wry neck or head tilt, caused by e. cuniculi. If you start to see similar symptoms in your other rabbits, you will want to treat immediately with fenbendazole, which is a common antiparasitic used in farm animals. An infection can also cause head tilt, but this sounds like it's more likely e. cuniculi to me.


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## KeltonB (Apr 9, 2013)

Oh no! Sorry to hear about the babies :-( I hope mom doesn't catch it.


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## majorv (Apr 9, 2013)

When bunnies that young get EC they get it from the Mom. The only way you'll know what caused their deaths is to have a necropsy done. I'm sorry you lost the whole litter.


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## minmelethuireb (Apr 9, 2013)

Oh, poor babies. That must have been horrifying when you saw the last one dying.  I agree that it sounds like the mom might be carrying e. cuniculi and given it to the babies. It's good that you're getting blood work done.


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## fossingen (Apr 10, 2013)

Yeah, it was very sad.. Yeah, it does sound like EC and tomorrow its time for the Vet with the mother. The mother doesn't show any signs nor the other rabbit. Since i'm a rabbit breeder i have 5 rabbits atm. And i am very unsure if i will treat her or make her sleep in if she has it. Cause i am very afraid if i treat her she still can infect the other rabbit. So it's a very hard decision.. But can my male rabbit be infected since they mated?

The second baby that died i made a self authopsy of, and i couldn't find anything wrong with the liver, kidneys etc. So it must have gone directly to the brain if it's EC.

But if the blood test shows negative i wonder what it can be..


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## majorv (Apr 10, 2013)

EC can be difficult to deal with because its still not well understood. We've only had one doe we could say for sure passed EC on to her litter. Two of the three showed signs and one of them got so bad we had to put her down...it was a shame because she was a very nice junior with a budding show career. We had her necropsied and it was confirmed by viewing tissue samples under a microscope. We didn't breed the doe again, but petted her out with the stipulation that she not be bred. She showed no signs either, and neither did the buck.


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## fossingen (Apr 10, 2013)

That's sad to hear. :/ 
Do you know if your buck had it since the he mate with your doe?
Cause one of my best breeding bunny mate with my doe that probably has EC. Would be so sad if i has it too.

Well tomorrow i'll probably find out what it is.


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## JBun (Apr 10, 2013)

From what I've read, it sounds like most rabbits have already been exposed to EC. So even if the test comes back showing it, I don't know that getting rid of the mom is going to eliminate it from your rabbitry. Plus it seems like a necropsy is the only way to get a definitive result on whether or not it was EC. The blood test only shows the antibodies, and doesn't seem as conclusive. So though the blood test may come back showing the antibodies, it doesn't necessarily mean that it was EC that caused the babies deaths.


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## majorv (Apr 10, 2013)

Agree with Jenny. Your doe....most rabbits....will show positive because they've been exposed. That's why we didn't test the Mom. Since she showed no symptoms we didn't try to do a blood titer because that only indicates active infections. The buck didn't belong to us but the owner had no problems with him or any litters from him. I wonder sometimes if it was just the combination of those two particular rabbits that started it. It's very frustrating dealing with EC and trying to figure out the whys and hows.

We weren't willing to go through all that again so we didn't take a chance with breeding the doe again, but you could try the mating again and see what happens....or do what we did and find her a pet home. We heard later from the people who took our doe and she had no health problems. You just can't know for sure what your babies died of without a necropsy where the tissue is also examined.


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## fossingen (Apr 11, 2013)

Yeah, i read so aswell about rabbit having it without any problems. That's why it's very difficult for me. Unluckely i tossed all the baby bunnies.

I had a litter with the same doe and buck in oktober 2012, they all survived and they're all fine. And i have contact with one of the buyers and that bunny shows no symptoms and she is pregnant atm and will have babies this week. 

But this second litter weren't fine at all.. Maybe i forgot to say, but the third one that i saw dying had a very little wry neck a few days before it died, it was so little so, but still watchable if watching closely. So i'm afraid it's still EC.. Cause the only thing i can think of, of all diseases i know is EC maybe pasteurella or some kind of brain infection. But i never really heard baby bunnies dying of those two last.


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## JBun (Apr 11, 2013)

If it comes up again, you can treat wry neck caused by EC, with the common livestock antiparasitic fenbendazole. You do want to catch it as early as possible, to minimize any permanent damage done, if it's not immediately fatal. I've read of preventative treatments being done, if you are concerned about your current rabbits.


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## fossingen (Apr 11, 2013)

I have fenbendazole worm medicine at home called Axilurm since i used it on one rabbit incase it had worms, so that i have at home. Well i'm off now to the Vet. I seen now symptoms of the mother a little wry neck at certain times..  I post when i get home more info.


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## JBun (Apr 11, 2013)

I hope your mom bun is ok.

The liquid fenbendazole is the easiest to dose. Here's the dosage info in case you need it. 20mg/kg once a day for 28 days. If you have the liquid and its 100mg/ml, then that comes out to 0.2cc/kg. So definitely talk to your vet about this if the mom is showing signs, and especially considering the babies that just died.

http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/tilt.html


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## fossingen (Apr 11, 2013)

So i was to the Vet he checked her and her ears and such and she were all fine. He recommended to take a blood sample and send it to the swedish vet institute to see if she has alot of antibodies. So we took the blood sample and then i went home. 

Then he contacted SVA and called me back on my cellphone and the institue and him recommended if she had alot of antibodies when the test comes back is to put her down since it's very hard to get rid of it cause it infects through pee and poo. 

He also said that the Swedish veterinarian institute (SVA) found the symptoms of my dead baby rabbit very strange cause Nosematosis mostly affect grown up rabbits. 
And that small rabbit babies mostly die with blood in their noses and stuff (i guess they refer to RVHD virus). He also said it can infect humans with low immune system and other small pets such as rats, guinea pigs etc. So he adviced i should wear gloves when i handle her and her cage.

Anyhow i found this veterinarian not so good at all, cause i asked him to take blood samples for Nosematosis and before he got the sample he ask me "You want a blood sample for RVHD?". I said "No, for E Cuni Culi" (Nosematosis). Like, i had to explain everything to him and i mentioned it's very contagious but he only took it seriously after he contact the institute..

Well the cost was for the checkup and the bloodtest sent for analyzis 149,61 USD.

And an authopsy would cost 328,98 USD according to him which he recommended if she was positive to EC. I told to him that SVA's website has a price on 241,25 USD for an authopsy. The answer from the Vet was -"Well maybe the changed the pricelist , cause it cost more".
Weirdly the institutes website has the same pricelist as before it still says it cost 241,25 USD when i check..


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## JBun (Apr 11, 2013)

You can check these lists if you want, and maybe there will be another recommended rabbit vet near you.

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/f28/finding-vet-13366/
http://www.rabbit.org/vets/vets.html


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## minmelethuireb (Apr 12, 2013)

I'd never heard of RVHD, but that's because I live in the US and fortunately we don't have it here. I suppose it could also be a possibility of what made the rabbits sick, because it can apparently cause spasms and lack of coordination.


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## fossingen (Apr 12, 2013)

#16 Thanks Jbun but i live in Sweden 



#17 RVHD we don't have here in north sweden, only south. And my baby rabbits had no blood coming from the nose or anywhere else, so i doubt RVHD.


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## JBun (Apr 12, 2013)

There actually is one vet on the list, for Sweden. It's from a few years ago, so they may or may not still be around. You could see if it's near you, and maybe give them a call if they are.

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/f21/sweden-rabbit-vets-47586/


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## tonyshuman (Apr 12, 2013)

I also am not sure this is EC because of the rapid decline and young age of the babies. Head tilt is usually not caused by E cuniculi but by an inner ear infection. Inner ear infections can definitely cause death, although they also wouldn't go so quickly. Are the bunnies blue-eyed or related to blue-eyed bunnies? It also sounds like the head tilt only was observed while the rabbit was also undergoing a seizure? Blue-eyed bunnies can have fatal seizures. I would also look into toxoplasmosis, if there is a chance they were in contact with an area where a cat has been? Toxoplasmosis is rapidly fatal to rabbits and causes seizures. Any chance they got into anything poisonous, including poisonous plants?

Various causes of head tilt:
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Neurology/head_tilt.htm

Various causes of seizure:
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Neurology/seizure.htm

Here is some more info about EC.
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Neurology/Signs/Cuniculi_signs.html

I have yet to see a valid report of EC causing rapid deterioration or occurring in rabbits under 4 mo old. Even in animals experimentally infected with the parasite for research purposes, symptoms were not seen until at least 2 weeks after infection.


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## fossingen (Apr 12, 2013)

19# Too far south:/

#20 No, the rabbit had no blue eyes. Only the father to the babies have the genecode Vv, think it's in the correct english terms, we call it in swedish genecodes Xx = Wienertecknad. The veterinarian checked the mothers ears, they were fine though. But i do have cats and my male bunny liked to play with the cats.

Well i can't really think of any poisionous food, since they all eat the same hay and pellet. Thanks for the link


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## fossingen (Apr 19, 2013)

Okey. AN UPDATE. I've got the results and my rabbits EC test is negative.. Any ideas what it might be?


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## majorv (Apr 19, 2013)

Since all three babies were affected then I'm wondering if they were all exposed to something toxic. Were they allowed to venture out of the cage? Is it possible the doe was exposed to something that came through her milk? Just trying to think of different possibilities...but you may never know what affected all of them though.


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## fossingen (Apr 21, 2013)

Well only out to take photos on my couch like 1-2 times while observed, so they didn't walk on the floor or so. The Vet said it might be a possibillity with the food, but all rabbits eat the same.

I just know that my doe like to eat a little cabbage,broccoli and pinewood.


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## JBun (Apr 21, 2013)

I don't think this has been brought up yet. But what about floppy bunny syndrome? It can be caused by a nutrient deficiency of vit. E or also potassium.

http://www.home.netspeed.com.au/reguli/flopbun.htm


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