# EARTHLINGS (warning, graphic)



## maxysmummy (Jan 14, 2011)

http://www.earthlings.com/

hey guys, i thought we should just get some healthy discussion going on!

watching this video has completely changed my outlook on the animal industry and has urged me to become a lot more conscious of where my food/clothes/entertainment comes from.

What do you guys think? 

just a quick warning - it's quite graphic. but i think it's very important.

P.S mods if you feel this incites too many arguments feel free to delete)


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## Yield (Jan 14, 2011)

maxysmummy wrote:


> http://www.earthlings.com/
> 
> hey guys, i thought we should just get some healthy discussion going on!
> 
> ...



[align=center]I saw this a couple years ago, and I cried so hard.
I went vegetarian for a week... but my favorite food is the cheeseburger so it was way too hard for me D=
The saddest part IMO was the fox. D;


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## maxysmummy (Jan 14, 2011)

i think the point of the video should not be - CUT OUT ALL ANIMAL PRODUCTS ENTIRELY - just think about where it comes from. 

i'm going to try and go semi-vegan. cut out all meat other than fish (i have an omega 3 deficiency) and be really selective of what animal products i use


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## maxysmummy (Jan 14, 2011)

ps there are some really yummy meat substitutes you can try which i think are way yummier than meat


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## Yield (Jan 14, 2011)

maxysmummy wrote:


> ps there are some really yummy meat substitutes you can try which i think are way yummier than meat



[align=center]I don't think I use any animal products.. =O
I have no idea...
And I tried to meat substitute and it was disgusting!
I got some nasty chunks of my vegetables or something in the burger I ate. It really grossed me out and I can't eat it anymore.
It's impossible for me to go vegetarian in my house anyways.
My mom is alway cooking meat and if I go vegetarian she won't buy me any vegan stuff probably (she didn't really besides nasty tofu when I went vegetarian the firrst time.) so I'll be stuck eating cereal/cookies, etc. if I do and that's soo unhealthy.
Maybe when I live on my own =O
Cause I love fish! (I would have to still be able to have fish but I gotta learn to cook it o_e


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## fuzz16 (Jan 14, 2011)

its not actually a matter of quitting eating meat....just make sure you purchase produce not from an unreliable source. 

if everyone stopped buying meat from walmart...they would stop selling it, in turn the demand would go down for a lot of these.

we buy our meat from a family friend, grows their cattle on the land, unabused and unmedicated. a town butcher does the deed, which im sure is more humane in any case than what most do. 

you can do same with pigs and sheep. fish is grown a lot of the same ways btw....huge tanks or caught inhumanely so not a whole lot better to go with fish and not other meats



and a lot of problem vegans and vegetarians face is the inability to get enough proteins and fats into their bodies to stay healthy and a lot of people just end up sick from not doin enough research on the subject. 



ETA: watch this too. a good reason to know where your meat comes from.http://www.themeatrix.com/


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## mistyjr (Jan 14, 2011)

And this is very illegal to do. The FDA comes to the slaughterhouses. They have to shot them once. They can get a big fine. The animals have to be feed and water, and taken care of. None can't be (sick, ill). And the way they are treating the dogs is animal cruelty, but that's over the country.


*My husband used to work in a ButcherHouse, He said that the FDA comes every kill day. And watch everyone. They can not shot them more then once. If they do they get a BIG fine. They have to be feed, and watered, And they can't come in sick and or Ill.


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## gentle giants (Jan 14, 2011)

I can't watch this whole video, I am doing a lot of fast forwarding because it makes me too sick. I am sure however that a lot of this is not only exaggerated but probably even flat out lies. As mistyjr pointed out, doing things like this can get a slaughterhouse not only fined big time but shut down asap. I could see a couple of errors in the parts I watched, but I won't go into detail about that they were because it would involve a graphic description.

I will say that while I am not a vegetarian and I don't plan to be, I have changed a lot of my life because of worries about how food animals are treated. I have started raising my own food animals. While I hate having to end their lives, I still feel better knowing that the meat I am eating had a happy, natural life, rather than being kept in a tiny cage or little dry lot crammed in with hundreds of others. I know a lot of people can't do this for various reasons, but the number of small farms that raise beef, pork and chicken humanely are growing. I would suggest doing a internet search for local humane farms if you are looking for an alternative to factory farmed meat and can't or don't want to raise it yourself.


ETA: I am still going through and watching bits of the vid.. The part showing someone clubbing turkeys is false. As hard as it is to think about, you have to remember that the name of the game is efficiency. To kill them this way would take twice as much time and work as using humane methods.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jan 14, 2011)

What a horrible video...it's a shame that media like this is out there, falsely protraying world agriculture.

For accurate information about the agricultural industry in the United States, I'd suggest browsing the U.S. Department of Agriculture website as a starting point. There is a whole wealth of information there and many species also have their own national associations, like the ARBA for rabbits. So googling those is another great starting point as well.


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## tonyshuman (Jan 14, 2011)

Hi all, I moved this to Let Your Hare Down because it isn't really "Bunny Business". So far I think the insights presented have been good and are in keeping with our rules, although we are skirting some topics that could get out of hand. Just as a reminder to all who want to post here, please make sure your comments fall in with our Forum Decorum before you post. Thanks.:big wink:


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## elrohwen (Jan 14, 2011)

I totally agree with Brenda - I think the answer here is to buy food that has been raised responsibly. Honestly, the produce industry isn't much better (watch "Food Inc" or "The Future of Food", both are really eye opening) - our entire agricultural system is set up to manufacture cheap food, not healthy or humanely raised food. 

I know it's easier said than done. I live in a cold climate and if I only ate local veggies I wouldn't eat any for half of the year. Still, we can do our part and buy from farmer's markets when possible. I think locating a reliable source of meat is important too. Yes, it's more expensive, but maybe we'll eat less of it then - nothing wrong with a few vegetarian meals per week. More cities are opening these local butcher shops I think, and those who live in the country should have an easier time of it. 

I think all of these issues are coming up more and more in the media and people are developing an awareness. I hope the local and humane food movements continue to grow! 

Oh, and I didn't watch the video since I'm at work, but I'll watch later. Thanks for posting! This is an issue that I think is so important for people to think about (no matter which decision we all make for ourselves)


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## SweetSassy (Jan 14, 2011)

How can anyone treat animals like that then be alright with themselves!! 

That was horrible!!! Poor animals ray:


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## BethM (Jan 14, 2011)

*fuzz16 wrote: *


> and a lot of problem vegans and vegetarians face is the inability to get enough proteins and fats into their bodies to stay healthy and a lot of people just end up sick from not doin enough research on the subject.


I'm sorry, but this is absolutely not true. So many people (Americans, especially) have been brainwashed into believing that that we need tons and tons of protein, every meal, all the time, when we really don't. 
The average adult needs about .8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight. So, for example, I am 155 lbs, therefore I only need about 56 grams of protein. This is VERY easy to get. (I limit soy and dairy, and still get plenty of protein.)

As far as fats, fat is everywhere. Plant-derived fats are much healthier for you than animal-derived fats, too. Nuts, seeds, oils, avocados, etc., are all healthy fats, and not difficult to obtain.

And honestly, someone who gets sick from improper nutrition on a vegetarian diet is likely to be malnourished eating meat, as well. If you eat REAL food (not prepackaged convenience junk) and pay a little bit of attention to what you're eating, you will get the nutrients you need.

I know someone who is raw vegan (no animal products, nothing cooked), and she easily gets more than enough protein and fat in her diet. There are vegan bodybuilders, UFC fighters, and triathletes, and they need far more protein than the average person- if they can do it, anyone can.

source


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## BethM (Jan 14, 2011)

*maxysmummy wrote: *


> i'm going to try and go semi-vegan. cut out all meat other than fish (i have an omega 3 deficiency) and be really selective of what animal products i use


If you eat fish, you are not "semi-vegan," you are pescetarian. 

And, by the way, you can get omega-3's from vegetarian sources: http://www.suite101.com/content/vegetarian-omega3-sources-a50910


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## maxysmummy (Jan 14, 2011)

*I'D 100% ADVOCATE ALSO WATCHING FOOD INC. such a fab docco and really does make you think about the food you eat (less graphic, less vegan inducing, lol)

fuzz16 wrote: *


> its not actually a matter of quitting eating meat....just make sure you purchase produce not from an unreliable source.
> 
> if everyone stopped buying meat from walmart...they would stop selling it, in turn the demand would go down for a lot of these.
> 
> ...


^^ this. i'm not advocating going 100% vegan, because for some it's just not the right lifestyle choice, but i AM however, advocating for people to choose their meat, dairy and egg sources very wisely.

for me, selective veganism is the best choice for me. i was 100% vegetarian at the age of four (i randomly made the decision when my dad pointed out to me that i was eating pig fat when i'd just eat the fat off the bacon) and then gradually i started eating more meat, fish, chicken, some bacon etc. i need to give up dairy for health reasons (lactose intollerant), i feel healthier when i DONT eat chicken (strangely enough). I want to give up eggs unless I am 100% sure they are from happy chickies. we are going to start buying from the co-op shop so we know the chickies are treated well. the fish i eat will be caught by my dad (he's a spearfisherman) which means when he shoots them, they die an instant death - no drawn out pain and stress. and at least i know its fresh and healthy


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## gentle giants (Jan 14, 2011)

Maxysmummy, I know this is kind of off topic, but have you tried goat milk? A lot of people can't drink the pasteurized milk from the store, but can drink/use goat milk, because it is much easier to digest. And I personally recommend getting it raw if at all possible, it is MUCH MUCH healthier raw than pasteurized, whether you are talking about cow milk or goat milk. I went out and got started in raising goats, purely so my kids can get the raw milk. And ten months out of the year (my goats get a break from milking for two months of the year) my kids, IF they get sick at all, are over it faster than any other kid in school.


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## maxysmummy (Jan 14, 2011)

*BethM wrote: *


> *maxysmummy wrote: *
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> ...


oooh thankyou!!! i didn't know there was a name for it


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## maxysmummy (Jan 14, 2011)

*gentle giants wrote: *


> Maxysmummy, I know this is kind of off topic, but have you tried goat milk? A lot of people can't drink the pasteurized milk from the store, but can drink/use goat milk, because it is much easier to digest. And I personally recommend getting it raw if at all possible, it is MUCH MUCH healthier raw than pasteurized, whether you are talking about cow milk or goat milk. I went out and got started in raising goats, purely so my kids can get the raw milk. And ten months out of the year (my goats get a break from milking for two months of the year) my kids, IF they get sick at all, are over it faster than any other kid in school.


oh wow that's interesting i'll look into it... hopefully that means i can still eat goats cheese *evil grin*. cheese is my life, giving it up entirely will be so difficult.


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## gentle giants (Jan 14, 2011)

*maxysmummy wrote: *


> *gentle giants wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Maxysmummy, I know this is kind of off topic, but have you tried goat milk? A lot of people can't drink the pasteurized milk from the store, but can drink/use goat milk, because it is much easier to digest. And I personally recommend getting it raw if at all possible, it is MUCH MUCH healthier raw than pasteurized, whether you are talking about cow milk or goat milk. I went out and got started in raising goats, purely so my kids can get the raw milk. And ten months out of the year (my goats get a break from milking for two months of the year) my kids, IF they get sick at all, are over it faster than any other kid in school.
> ...


Good luck with it, I hope it works for you. I have no idea what the laws about selling raw milk are like over there, here you have to really jump through hoops to be able to sell raw milk at all, in some states it is totally illegal no matter what. Another reason I decided to get my goats, LOL.


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## maxysmummy (Jan 14, 2011)

*gentle giants wrote: *


> *maxysmummy wrote: *
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You're so lucky, goats are soooo gorgeous  i've wanted one for a while now, ever since i met this fellow:





2 week old goat! so cute, cuddly like a little puppy


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## BethM (Jan 15, 2011)

*maxysmummy wrote: *


> *BethM wrote: *
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> > *maxysmummy wrote: *
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No problem.  The term Vegan is a whole lifestyle, not just a diet. Vegans strive to avoid all animal products in all aspects of their life- food, clothing, personal care products, etc. 
Someone is either vegan, or they're not vegan.


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## fuzz16 (Jan 15, 2011)

i dont think anyone can be a vegan or vegetarian. there are inhibiting diseases that or circumstances or plain stupidity of not doing their research that could be extremely harmful to their diets...

if my immune system drops at all, i die...id rather not take the chance with tofu


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## fuzz16 (Jan 15, 2011)

*OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *


> What a horrible video...it's a shame that media like this is out there, falsely protraying world agriculture.
> 
> For accurate information about the agricultural industry in the United States, I'd suggest browsing the U.S. Department of Agriculture website as a starting point. There is a whole wealth of information there and many species also have their own national associations, like the ARBA for rabbits. So googling those is another great starting point as well.




this is the truth of what happens in a lot of places with our food animals. puppy mills are real. there are so many slaughter houses they cant keep them all under control. 

there is a pig farm in northern, mo. my aunt has fount them for over 10 years. they take the pig manure and waste and spread it over their crop land, in turn going into the water, destroying habitats. my grandma has to be on breathing tubes whenever they spray the fields. trucks pass their house with hogs crammed in it and you can hear them screaming as they pass. 

this video is reality. this is oscar meyer foods, ect


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## fuzz16 (Jan 15, 2011)

btw, PSF is the name of the company, google them...real stuff


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## MiniLopHop (Jan 15, 2011)

Maxysmummy- try goat or sheep cheese. I can't have cow milk or products because I get an inflammation reaction, but the sheep and goat is ok occasionally. I drink almond milk. It tastes pretty close but only have 35 calories and more calcium than cow milk. I grew up on a diry farm and the cows were treated very well. If they are emotionally upset they don't give as much milk, hence you keep them as happy as possible.
I am trying to eat a lot less meat for health reasons. I do tend to crave red meat though when my iron gets low so I try eating rasins etc that are higher in iron every day.
I have not watched the video yet because my net book isn't fast enough to stream something that long. Will have to snag my husband's lap top at some point.


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## maxysmummy (Jan 15, 2011)

*fuzz16 wrote: *


> i dont think anyone can be a vegan or vegetarian. there are inhibiting diseases that or circumstances or plain stupidity of not doing their research that could be extremely harmful to their diets...
> 
> if my immune system drops at all, i die...id rather not take the chance with tofu


tofu is god. its so amazing, most people are like "eww tofu" but if you cook it right it's incredible. just marinate a bit of firm tofu in soy sauce and then fry it. yuuumy !!!


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## maxysmummy (Jan 15, 2011)

*BethM wrote: *


> *maxysmummy wrote: *
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this vid has really opened my eyes... especially to thinks like leather >.< i'm going to stop using any animal derived products in clothes and shoes and makeup etc.

the saddest part was when they skinned the fox and he was still alive


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jan 18, 2011)

*fuzz16 wrote: *


> *OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *
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> > What a horrible video...it's a shame that media like this is out there, falsely protraying world agriculture.
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I am not saying that there are not people out there who abuse and neglect animals. However, these videos that are all over the internet are spreading _false_ information. Companies (and even small family farms) that contribute legally to the food supply in the U.S. are regulated by the USDA and the FDA. No, the animals are not treated as house pets or pasture pets. But the abuse and neglect portrayed in videos on the internet are so far from reality.

You mentioned puppy mills, and it can be compared to that. It's similar to the difference between a registered, reputable breeder and a puppy mill. The same difference is seen in agriculture. Sure, there are bad situations out there and it is impossible to control everyone. But U.S. agriculture is not characterized by the abuse shown in this and other videos. I'm sure it isn't too hard for people to find and display bad examples of the industry. What they're not showing is the vast majority of the industry, which is concerned about the living situations and welfare of their production animals.


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## maxysmummy (Jan 18, 2011)

*OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *


> *fuzz16 wrote: *
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how are you so certain that these videos are "lies" ?


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## nermal71 (Jan 18, 2011)

Not sure so much that they are lies, but its a case of a few bad occurances tainting all. It's like video taping say a man abusing his wife....and then saying all men are abusive. While the video would be true it wouldn't characterize all men. Yes there are cases were there are some really nasty sick humans who mistreat animals. But there are also many many who are humane in their treatment. Woulld it be fair for someone to say all rabbit owners are hoarders just because there are some who do? Or say that all pitbull ownders raise their dogs to fight because there are some that do? Its the same thing.


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## fuzz16 (Jan 18, 2011)

i doubt its a few...we live in a nation thats more concerned with profit than health. which is why there has been lead found in canned fruits, and pesticides and fake coloring put on vegetables and fruits to make them look better. even some ranch dressing has MSG which is shown to cause cancer. but producers say its a minute amount so its safe...

do you really think a company cares about how the animals are raised, or killed. their going to do the cheapest way for them. waiting for an animal to be dead before cutting it up takes time, time that could be used to prep more, so why would they wait when they could do five more in the time it takes to kill one?
or psf to spread hog manure over land and in turn destroy habitats and causing possibly cancer in the future.

while every slaughter house may not be like the ones shown...what about the antibiotics poured into the animals bodies, the beatings the animals get. is that really what you want to eat? abcess infested pigs, animals hyped on steroids and antibiotics to be fattier, produce more milk, stay alive long enough to be big enough to be killed. 

sorry to burst peoples bubbles...but this video does not lie, nor glorify anything to make something look worse. its an insight on what happens, maybe not EVERY SINGLE one...but statiscally...there are more worse people than good people here in the world...


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## maxysmummy (Jan 18, 2011)

*nermal71 wrote: *


> Not sure so much that they are lies, but its a case of a few bad occurances tainting all. It's like video taping say a man abusing his wife....and then saying all men are abusive. While the video would be true it wouldn't characterize all men. Yes there are cases were there are some really nasty sick humans who mistreat animals. But there are also many many who are humane in their treatment. Woulld it be fair for someone to say all rabbit owners are hoarders just because there are some who do? Or say that all pitbull ownders raise their dogs to fight because there are some that do? Its the same thing.


I think it's more a sample of the industry than anything. rather than saying "all farmers are bad" it's more.... "all large scale commerical farming slaughter-houses treat their animals pretty poorly"


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jan 20, 2011)

nermal71 wrote:


> Not sure so much that they are lies, but its a case of a few bad occurances tainting all. It's like video taping say a man abusing his wife....and then saying all men are abusive. While the video would be true it wouldn't characterize all men. Yes there are cases were there are some really nasty sick humans who mistreat animals. But there are also many many who are humane in their treatment.Â  Woulld it be fair for someone to say all rabbit owners are hoarders just because there are some who do?Â Â  Or say that all pitbull ownders raise their dogs to fight because there are some that do?Â  Its the same thing.



Yep,exactly. The videos are not made up or lies, but they aren't good displays of how the ag industry is run. They are isolated incidents and horrible for sure. But rest assured, these actions aren't the norm.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jan 20, 2011)

*fuzz16 wrote: *


> do you really think a company cares about how the animals are raised, or killed. their going to do the cheapest way for them. waiting for an animal to be dead before cutting it up takes time, time that could be used to prep more, so why would they wait when they could do five more in the time it takes to kill one?
> or psf to spread hog manure over land and in turn destroy habitats and causing possibly cancer in the future.


People who are in the agricultural industry are animal lovers. There may be employees who work in poultry houses or something that don't really care and are just there for a job. But by and large, the people involved in agriculture love animals because honestly, there is not a lot of money to be made in the industry. You HAVE to love what you're doing to be a part of it.

Because that is the case (case being, not a lot of money to be made), you are right- the focus is on profits. For this reason, production animals do not live in vast pastures with acres to roam and green grass to eat. It costs to much. So they are in tighter conditions, fed a less natural diet, etc. However, this doesn't mean that production animals are abused.

I have seen videos on the internet of people processing animals before they are unconcious, beating livestock with tools to get them to move, etc. I will stop there because I know it's a very graphic presentation. This *is* abuse. But this abuse is not supported by or encouraged by the ag industry. Conditions may not be as luxurious as we wish them to be for animals as pets or the like, but they are not the horror that is seen in these videos. Although measures are taken to decrease cost and increase profit, beaten, abused, scared, sick, and dead animals don't help profits any- they are a loss. Like I said, some company employees may be there for "just a job", and these are often the people who are caught abusing animals. When that happens, there are corrective actions taken against these workers. Such acts are not simply not acceptable to you, me, or the farmers.

I hope this gives you a better understanding and explains things a bit better, although I could say so much more. I am directly involved in the ag industry, am studying it at college, and animal production in the U.S. is something my major focuses heavily on. I'm also great friends with many dairy and poultry farmers and am familiar with their practices. With that said, I don't know everything. But I am exposed to the industry enough that I hope what I've said can put your mind at ease. I understand where you're coming from, because information like this video is EVERYWHERE. It's hard not to believe it, and I did for a long time too. But these videos are comprised of very isolated incidents. Many and MOST farmers care very, very much about the welfare of their animals. Not only because they want the best for them (like any of us), but also because sick, dead, or abused animals are quite frankly just not condusive to efficient production.

I hope that explanation helps a little more. Please know I'm not trying to argue with you or what you're saying, because I know you speak from what you have seen as well.  I just hate to see people turned away from the ag industry by misinformation like this video, so I try to give the other side whenever possible for consideration too.


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## maxysmummy (Jan 22, 2011)

*OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *


> *fuzz16 wrote: *
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> > do you really think a company cares about how the animals are raised, or killed. their going to do the cheapest way for them. waiting for an animal to be dead before cutting it up takes time, time that could be used to prep more, so why would they wait when they could do five more in the time it takes to kill one?
> ...


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/20/hundreds-of-dead-birds-in_n_811709.html

to be honest this makes me seriously distrust any "animal loving" claims that the USDA cites on their website.

btw i hope you don't take offense to this/see this as argumentative, more... healthy debate  if i am offending you let me know and i will delete my posts.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jan 23, 2011)

It's difficult for me to really respond to that article or the other claims made on this post because, in any industry, there are sour apples. There are people who do things incorrectly or not under regulation.

We could take teaching, for example. There are good teachers who really do their best to encourage learning in their students. And there are other teachers who just give their kids busy work while the teacher is just holding time in the classroom waiting for a promotion to administration.

Or, like pet owning. There are many good pet owners who take excellent care of their pets. However, there are many others who do not.

Does that mean that we should work to convert education entirely to homeschool to avoid bad teachers? Or completely eliminate animal ownership because of the bad pet owners? Or halt production agriculture because of the bad cases displayed in mass media?

I don't take offense to what you're saying and like discussing the topic too, because I think it's an important one to discuss.  I definitely think there are a lot of changes we could make to ensure that even more animals are properly treated. There are always improvements to be made. It just seems like some of this media is trying to turn everyone completely against production agriculture because of animal abuse. Like I said, I don't think the industry is characterized by that. But I do think that it would be wonderful to maybe make changes to regulations in order to even further improve the industry.

On a side note- that's an interesting article, thanks for posting it! I had never heard the follow up to that bird story. Scary! It still seems a little fishy to me that they'd be poisoning tons of birds...I wonder if there were other motives?


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