# Alien in Litter



## Shaded Night Rabbitry (Apr 22, 2010)

I'll post pictures in the morning, when it's not 4 am. I was up since 2 am [boyfriend called me], and noticed my girl was nesting. I got her some more hay, watched an hour long show, and checked on her again. She was in the box, so I left her alone. 20 minutes later, she was still in there, so I went and sat on the floor next to her.

It was pretty awesome to watch three of the kits being born, even if I didn't get that great of view.

Immediately after she was done, and left the box of her own accord, I pulled them out and did a head count and a health check.

Four of them look perfectly find on the outside. One [which appeared to be the last born, two minutes before hand], has a large.. neck? Just fat. Perhaps it was the timing, perhaps it's just the baby. The runt looks okay. No peanuts (and I expected none, due to the BUD to dwarf breeding)

But one kit seriously looks like an alien. I was scared when I pulled it out. It's eyes are open. I don't know if it can see or not, but the eyes are developed from what I can tell. There's most definitely a pupil and iris.

Birth defect, probably. And it doesn't surprise me with two failed litters beforehand (Double breeding [half my fault], and a single baby that froze). I plan on letting nature figure itself out. I'm done trying to help newborn litters, sometimes I do good and other times I ruin it. I don't expect the baby to live, but I was wondering if there was a chance? It just seems weird that if it was underdeveloped in that sense, the eye's wouldn't be formed at all... But this guy seems fine other then tag.

Ahh. Oh well. I guess we won't know the answer until the end, but.. It's always interesting to speculate. 

I'll post pictures later today. All are pink! I'd assume sable points and REWs possibly. Funfun! My first litter of what I'm actually trying to breed for!


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## TinysMom (Apr 22, 2010)

I'm wondering if it is a Max Factor kit - are the legs deformed at all?

http://www.tranquilacresrabbitry.com/article-MaxFactor.html


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## TinysMom (Apr 22, 2010)

I've been debating on adding this - but I will. I've had a litter born where all were Max Factors. While I will normally do everything I can to save a rabbit - I put them down. 

I also didn't breed their parents again as I didn't want that in my lionhead lines. (I could have bred them to others - but then I'd have carriers).


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## Shaded Night Rabbitry (Apr 22, 2010)

AHA! see. I always heard of this, but I'd never actually got a definition. I assumed it had to do with BUB/BUDs. I was very, very wrong obviously. =D

I'll go check him to the criteria.


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## Shaded Night Rabbitry (Apr 22, 2010)

Yup. I didn't inspect him well before. I was honestly kind of scared of him.

I'll be putting him down shortly. Both of his back legs are horribly twisted. Eyes open. 

Thanks for the help.


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## Nela (Apr 22, 2010)

Wow... I had never heard of max factor bunnies... That's so sad and I agree it must be quite creepy :expressionlessPoor little babe.


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## Shaded Night Rabbitry (Apr 22, 2010)

Yes, it's very sad. And the back story is so interesting. The fact that one rabbit can affect so many to this day. 

I'm actually starting to wonder if that's what was wrong with the other litter I had three weeks ago. Three were dead by the time I got home. Two [I think?] had horribly twisted limbs. Now that I think about it, I recall thinking something odd about their head/eyes. 

It's the lines. Those three animals are basically all from the same breeder, even if two of them had come from another source. It's funny. The breeder who they came from has been somewhat of a mentor to me... I find it funny that she's never mentioned this to me, especially if I can bet she sees it all the time. (All three rabbits have similar backgrounds. I know her herd well, and she uses her best two/three bucks a /lot/.) 

Hmn.


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## pamnock (Apr 22, 2010)

The recessive max factor gene came from one imported Netherland Dwarf years ago. Upside - these lines produce excellent show stock. Downside - they also produce max factor kits.

This is a recessive gene, which means that both parents are carriers.


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## Shaded Night Rabbitry (Apr 22, 2010)

Yeah, I read about that. I'll have to debate with myself if I'll have to stomach to deal with that in future litters. My father won't be around to save me from it every time. 

But yeah. Which confirms that all three of my L-A-H's rabbits carry it. I'm not sure about the other two. I haven't used one buck, but he was bred to one of the confirmed does, and my only current proven doe didn't throw any in a litter of six, but obviously it could still be hiding.

This is definitely something I'll have to think about. I don't specifically like all these breeding problems. Rather heartbreaking in the end. But I'd guess that all breeds and their ups and downs.


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## crystal (Apr 22, 2010)

This is very interesting... my boy Lopsy has soft fur, and has two strange legs that stick out (on his right side) and we sometimes wonder if he has bad eye sight... but maybe he just has deformed legs. 

How commonly do these max factors live to be adults? Lopsy is about 3 as far as I know, and a very lovely bunny too.


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## mistyjr (Apr 22, 2010)

poor baby! I never heard a thing and that would be creepy as heck.


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## mistyjr (Apr 22, 2010)

I hope it didnt suffer while you humanely got rid of it... I culdnt do it.


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## Shaded Night Rabbitry (Apr 22, 2010)

Hopefully Pam can answer you, Crystal. As far as that website says, the babies can live and it doesn't sound like it's insanely hard to get them to, if you can combat the bad things. 

As far as an update goes; I found two kits with the problem. Both have been put down, as humanely as possible. The other four have full tummies, and momma's been well taken care of. I'm only concerned about one other baby. He wouldn't/could come out of a fetal position for three or four minutes, even around momma. Then randomly he sprung open, but his back legs just don't stay under him. Perhaps it just comes with being the runt. There's no deformities on him, other than just looking/acting stupid. I'll watch him for the next few days. I hope it's nothing.

I hope Bea's litter goes well next week. I counted 7 the last time I palpated. In her first litter, she didn't throw a peanut or a max factor. One BUB, I'm thinking though. X3 Let's hope I have the same luck and can get some replacement does. I'm ready to move at least one out, and have room for an extra two. 

I also hope L1L's litter goes better than the first, but who knows. We'll see.


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## massie777 (Apr 22, 2010)

Did you have any pictures of the babies you could post?


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## mistyjr (Apr 22, 2010)

*massie777 wrote: *


> Did you have any pictures of the babies you could post?


I was going to ask that, But I didnt wanna sound stupid for asking.


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## pamnock (Apr 22, 2010)

*mistyjr wrote: *


> I hope it didnt suffer while you humanely got rid of it... I culdnt do it.


We had discussed a couple humane options on PM.


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## mistyjr (Apr 22, 2010)

I just couldnt do it. Just like the ARBA book that I got and I was reading in it. Just like with breeders that have dutch babies and if they are mismark they do the same thing.. There is no way I could have done it...


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## crystal (Apr 22, 2010)

Shaded Night Rabbitry wrote:


> Hopefully Pam can answer you, Crystal. As far as that website says, the babies can live and it doesn't sound like it's insanely hard to get them to, if you can combat the bad things.



It just so happens I am taking Lopsy to the vet in the morning so I will see if he has heard of it, or what he suggests could have caused his legs to be the way they are. It doesn't matter if Lopsy has this or not, but I am interested and curious. I had not come across such a thing before... His weird back leg does sound like the 'clubbed' description. but there's also a possibility that it is something else.


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## Nela (Apr 22, 2010)

Well we cannot compare in a fair manner a breeder that would cull a bunny for being mismarked with having to cull a deformed bunny.(Not saying that you are Misty)I mean, sure they say it could possibly survive but if you end up with a blind bunny plus reduced mobility... I don't know, I don't think it's the ideal life for the bunny. Probably some are worse than others so it's probably an individual thing. 

Misty, I understand. The thought of culling is one that really affects people who care about their bunnies. I mean, even if you know in your heart you are doing the right thing, I'm sure it's never easy and I am quite sure the 10th time is just as hard as the 1st.

It's the hard reality of breeding though. It's not all cute and great. I'm sorry you had to deal with it Megan. Hope your upcoming litter will be a nice healthy one.


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## mistyjr (Apr 22, 2010)

I mean yes! You should do what is best foe the bunny and for your self. Im not saying that it shouldnt happen, I just couldnt do it. But it was best for the little guy.


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## Sabine (Apr 22, 2010)

I wonder if the Max factor is also present in rabbits in Europe? I have a litter of ND due (tonight hopefully) So it's not just the peanuts to worry about....


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## pamnock (Apr 22, 2010)

*Sabine wrote: *


> I wonder if the Max factor is also present in rabbits in Europe? I have a litter of ND due (tonight hopefully) So it's not just the peanuts to worry about....



The gene came to the US through a German import Netherland Dwarf. It is also in stock in Britain, although UK judge Phil Batey states that breeders cull heavily for stock known to carry Max Factor.

The "hippo" gene is yet another undesirable gene that Netherland Dwarf breeders have to contend with.


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## Sabine (Apr 22, 2010)

Oh no, I definitely have never heard of the "hippo" gene. How does that present itself?


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## Shaded Night Rabbitry (Apr 22, 2010)

Yes, everything was as humane as possible. 

The four are still alive, and the runt is still looking okay. Lotsa fun currently. I'll have a baby post up in a while when things get less hectic. My month old niece is over right now, and I'm going to end up on baby sitting dude while they go get dinner.

I'll also probably have 20 minute old pictures, and twelve hour old pictures. X3


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## pamnock (Apr 22, 2010)

This website has photos of peanuts, max factors, and hippos.

http://natureschild.net/SCG/Articles/A_Abnormal.html


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## tonyshuman (Apr 22, 2010)

I hadn't heard of it before but Polly, who's in the UK, has mentioned her nethies having Max Factor before.


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## Nela (Apr 23, 2010)

Oh the pictures, especially the Hippo picture of day 4 made me tear up... Very informational post though. Thank you for sharing Pam.


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## polly (Apr 24, 2010)

Yes I have had max factors before. Have got to laugh pam. Phil doesn't half get about lol!! His thoughts are any lines carrying max factor should be removed from breeding completely. He doesn't agree that the normal litter mates are any better than any other litter. Obviously if you do keep and breed on rabbits who had max factor litter mates that the problem will only get worse. 

Although some would survive a lot will go blind because they appear to have no eyelids or the eyelid isn't fully formed. If left the eye scabs over and presses on the eyeball causing pain and blindness. The only thing to do is humanely cull imo. Horrid but less cruel in the long run


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## Sabine (Apr 24, 2010)

I have the max factor in my herd





Does that mean I shouldn't bread with them?


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## polly (Apr 24, 2010)

According to phil no you shouldn't but it's easy for him to say and not so easy in practice to be honest as a lot of rabbits carry it. There seems to be different theories on whether it can be bred out or not. As it is the majority of breeders follow more what pamnock mentioned which is you get the best rabbits out of litters carrying max factors. I have a couple of rabbits in my shed that must carry this gene as I have had litters with them in. In fact I kept a buck off a max factor litter for showing and he has just fathered a litter with no max factor in it. I also have a doe her first litter was dead no max factor tho her 2nd litter was 4 max factors!! I am going to remate her and see but if it happened again I will stop breeding her.


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## Sabine (Apr 24, 2010)

Well, at least this will mean that the remaining two babies are of good quality? They are probably better off not being bred back to their parents though?


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## TinysMom (Apr 24, 2010)

*polly wrote: *


> Although some would survive a lot will go blind because they appear to have no eyelids or the eyelid isn't fully formed. If left the eye scabs over and presses on the eyeball causing pain and blindness. The only thing to do is humanely cull imo. Horrid but less cruel in the long run


Until you hold a Max Factor in your hands because it is in your herd....its easy to say "I couldn't cull it...I wouldn't cull it."

I'm one who only culls for deformities that will affect the quality of life of the rabbit and the first time I faced it - was with Max Factor kits. (Art euthanized them - I'm not sure how nor do I want to discuss it).

Even their mom knew something was wrong with them and would not acknowledge them or go near them.

However, there is something about seeing those kits....knowing they'll probably be blind - unable to move correctly, etc - that makes you suddenly become "able" to cull. 

The first kits we ever euthanized were Max Factors and I do believe in doing that with these kits. 

It isn't that they aren't special in their own way - but frequently - mama will refuse to nurse them anyway as she knows something is wrong.


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## Sabine (Apr 24, 2010)

I guess i was lucky that my first Max factor was born dead as I haven't really put much thought into culling. I don't think I'd be able to do it although I believe they should be put down humanely. David will surely help me out there but I think I should start looking into humane ways of culling. i know it's not discussed here but where would I find information apart from google?


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## mistyjr (Apr 24, 2010)

Sabine.. I have found a website about cull. I dont if it will help or not. But they talk about it..
http://www.hillsborohollands.com/Breeding.html


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## Sabine (Apr 24, 2010)

Thanks for the link. I had a look at it but it seems by culling they mean finding pet homes for the bunnies that are not desired for breeding. Unless I didn't look at the right part.


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## mistyjr (Apr 24, 2010)

There was two links from that website.. I found another one that they use CO Cambers whatever that is.. But I searched at yahoo though...


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## Sabine (Apr 24, 2010)

I must take another look. Not sure if I go as far as building a CO chamber. As humane as it may be it gives me the creeps. I'll check it out. Thanks.


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## mistyjr (Apr 24, 2010)

It wasnt in that website.... sorry..


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## Sabine (Apr 24, 2010)

Not to worry


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## mistyjr (Apr 24, 2010)

Yeah! It always dont mean the worst for culling..


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## mistyjr (Apr 24, 2010)

Shaded Night... Nice Rabbitry on the youtube.com


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## Shaded Night Rabbitry (Apr 24, 2010)

X3 That's the old rabbitry.
The new one is fantastic. =D I'll do another walkthrough sometime soon.


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## mistyjr (Apr 24, 2010)




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