# lions den



## paul2641 (Dec 31, 2008)

finally I am creating a bunny blog.



sukura,







You love me






ok I've had enough






I'm to good for you

Sukura is my baby girl, I got her at 8 weeks old. She doesn't seem to get on with anyone else apart from me. She jumps into my arms, gives me bunny kisses and loves attension. MY BABY! This photo is only a day old.

When I first saw her I wasn't too kean on getting her because she seemed to be dead like but I asked the sales assisent could I hold her and she cuddled up to me and I fell in love!:inlove::heartbeat:


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## paul2641 (Dec 31, 2008)

Roger aka Rodge






My coat, I wasn't prepared






Mr cuddles






Do you like my ear?






Am I close enough?

Roger was my first rabbit My mother brought me up to the petshop saying "were only looking Paul" And then I goes he is really cool can we get him and then she said yes. 

Roger was 4 months old when I got him and he was the most popular rabbit the shop said he was very popular with the customers. 

He likes being petted but hates being held. He loves munching on his food. He loves going outside and running around and he is very good friends with the dog.







You want me well tough


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## paul2641 (Dec 31, 2008)

Suki aka the B!t&# (sorry but that's what we call her)






Get me out of here






look in me eye






stay back roger I'll scope the place out






My good side






I was born for the camera






Headbutt






cool lets party

Suki we got the week after Roger she loves headrubs but you try and pick her up and the claws are out and I learned the hard way reason for nickname. She is the boss saying what's what. She is a little piggy. She hates going outside loves to just lay down and relax.

And there you have it people my rabbits.

Please tell me what you think


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## Flashy (Dec 31, 2008)

I think your buns are beautiful.

I can see you have a male and female together, are they both speutered? Or at the very least one is fixed?

Suki also looks a bit matted in her fur (from the pictures) so given an angora would need far more care, please think very carefully about what you can offer a bun that is of such high maintenance when your buns who need less grooming are getting a bit raggedy (and that's not to say you don't groom them enough because I don't know how often you groom them or anything, I was just pointing it out given you wanted to know what people think).

How old are they all? They are a gorgeous collection of buns  How long have you had them for? Tell us more  And more pics


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## paul2641 (Dec 31, 2008)

*Flashy wrote: *


> I think your buns are beautiful.
> 
> I can see you have a male and female together, are they both speutered? Or at the very least one is fixed?
> 
> ...



Male and female together both are intact. We are thinking of breeding but we can't separate them as of yet because we have no room for a third hutch/cage in the house but when we put them outside in the shed in february they will all be housed separetly. The reason suki is matted is because a few days ago she gave me a massive 3 scars( I mean scars the scratches have healed and I'm left with marks) thank god it's on my arm. And the funny thing is I was taking her out to groom. I normally groom atleast once a week to twice a week. As you can see roger looked well in the photos, Sukura is naturally curly so I would have to use a hair straghtner to get her hair perfect. I Am going to try grooming her in the next 2 days. Roger and suki are 6 and half months old had then 2 and a half months. sukura have had for 2 weeks. I'll try and get some more pics of suki when she is groomed. And the cage does look a bit messy but I cleaned them out today and I try to clean out 1-2 times a week. I use paper so I had to get a shreader to shread the paper(as I normally use my aunties shreader) All rabbits get clean food and water daily. Any more faults please tell me and I'll try and improve.



I'm going to be using these lionheads for my breeding plan. And I'm wondering do experianced breeders think I have a nice selection. I'm also going to be bring in a 3rd female. (hopefully fully white or grey and white)


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## Flashy (Dec 31, 2008)

Are you prepared for a litter? What happens if she gives birth when the buck is still in there and gets immediately pregnant? That's harmful to any kits, and her too. Also, where will you house the kits once they have been weaned, if you can't find them homes? How come you got another bun if you didn't have room to house the first two appropriately?

That probbaly sounds like an attack, but it's not, I just want to understand more, that's all


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## paul2641 (Dec 31, 2008)

*Flashy wrote: *


> Are you prepared for a litter? What happens if she gives birth when the buck is still in there and gets immediately pregnant? That's harmful to any kits, and her too. Also, where will you house the kits once they have been weaned, if you can't find them homes? How come you got another bun if you didn't have room to house the first two appropriately?
> 
> That probbaly sounds like an attack, but it's not, I just want to understand more, that's all



Honestly that didn't sound like an attack because if it did I would let you KNOW!

Well to be honest I am pretty prepared because there is always someone down with the rabbits including all night my mother has great trouble sleeping and she injoys looking at all the rabbits. We are planning on putting them outside when it gets warmer and I will have loads of space to put as many rabbits as I want out there. If there is a litter before there moved outside I will put another cage in the kitchen As we have taken down the decorations and there is space were the tree was in the origenal place were the rabbits were at the start(we mmoved them to under the kitchen table). So In the end I have enough space for a litter. And the new female. Anyway what do you think of the quality of the rabbits do they have nice features?


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## Flashy (Dec 31, 2008)

I know NOTHING about lionheads, lol, so I can't answer about their quality, sorry. Do you know their genetics? Like if there are any genetic problems, etc? Maybe you could post in the Rabbitry and ask in there? There are a few lionhead breeders (or former lionhead breeders) around, and they could give you a better idea than ANYTHING I could say, lol.

If you intend to be a responsible breeder maybe it is worth getting that additional cagefor the kitchen you were talking about and putting either buck or doe in there. What you are doing now does not sound very responsible, and it also sounds pretty ignorant. Whilst being partly your responsibility, you're a child, and it should be your parents responsibility to oversee and make sure you are doing things responsibly, and don't put your rabbits at risk in anyway.

Where did you get all your buns from?


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## paul2641 (Dec 31, 2008)

*Flashy wrote: *


> I know NOTHING about lionheads, lol, so I can't answer about their quality, sorry. Do you know their genetics? Like if there are any genetic problems, etc? Maybe you could post in the Rabbitry and ask in there? There are a few lionhead breeders (or former lionhead breeders) around, and they could give you a better idea than ANYTHING I could say, lol.
> 
> If you intend to be a responsible breeder maybe it is worth getting that additional cagefor the kitchen you were talking about and putting either buck or doe in there. What you are doing now does not sound very responsible, and it also sounds pretty ignorant. Whilst being partly your responsibility, you're a child, and it should be your parents responsibility to oversee and make sure you are doing things responsibly, and don't put your rabbits at risk in anyway.
> 
> Where did you get all your buns from?


I will ask my mother can I get another hutch for the kitchen soon, But I don't know My first plan was to bond suki and sukura together but that didn't work suki attacked her. Roger and suki were bought in a petshop that is very well respected for the care of the animals and the quality. And health. Plus they get the nicest buns in town. Sukura was bought in a chain brand petstore called petmania chain petstores are uncommon in Ireland well petmania being the first. As explained why I got her it was kinda like a rescue. But I liked her. There really arn't any breeders over here just the petshops.


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## Sabine (Dec 31, 2008)

All the buns are lovely. My favourte is Suki. I love her beautiful markings and with a bit of grooming her mane would look magnificent. Make sure you hold her really tight and secure when you handle her so she won't be able to scratch you by moving suddenly. Raylann used to sometimes struggle when carried because she wasn't used to handling but she has really got used to it and rarely fights handling anymore.
Suki probably has a lot going on with being hormonal/pregnant and you may have to cut her some slack for being not as cuddly as a baby bun
I wonder about their colours. Have you posted in the rabbitry? They look orange to me with Suki maybe a broken orange (charly) Hard to see in the picture but there seem to be other colours in them too.
As regards a second hutch, Gumtree or even Freecycle may be options or extending an existing hutch if you have any DIY skills. If Suki and Roger are always together you can never be sure of conception and therefore due date. You may be facing a litter within a forthnight. best have something ready.
If there is a shed already maybe you ould start making use of it. My buns spent most of the day in the garden and as long as they are sheltered at night you could start getting them used to the outdoors (gradually) so that you have more housing options


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## paul2641 (Dec 31, 2008)

I'm going to groom her the day after tomarrow and I'll post pics of her full body pics. Sabine do you think I could start a nice line for breeding lionheads?


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## Flashy (Jan 1, 2009)

There are breeders in Ireland otherwise you wouldn't have rabbits in pet shops, or anywhere at all, apart from wild ones. They may not be well advertised but that does not mean they are not there. They are more likely to be backyard breeders though because there are less regulations and seemingly (some of?) Ireland is not particularly rabbit savvy. Backyard breeders are not very responsible about their breeding, they don't know about their stock, they make bad decisions on breeding, they do it for the wrong reasons and go about it the wrong way. Essentially the animals suffer. I would hope you don't become one of those, so make sure you look carefully at all you do


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## paul2641 (Jan 1, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> There are breeders in Ireland otherwise you wouldn't have rabbits in pet shops, or anywhere at all, apart from wild ones. They may not be well advertised but that does not mean they are not there. They are more likely to be backyard breeders though because there are less regulations and seemingly (some of?) Ireland is not particularly rabbit savvy. Backyard breeders are not very responsible about their breeding, they don't know about their stock, they make bad decisions on breeding, they do it for the wrong reasons and go about it the wrong way. Essentially the animals suffer. I would hope you don't become one of those, so make sure you look carefully at all you do


Yeah but we don't have those large scale breeders like England and America. As far as being a small breeder you can give your animals alot more love time. Then a person with 200+ rabbits. The largest rabbitary I can find in ireland is 32 rabbits. That's nothing to the sizes of some.


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## Flashy (Jan 1, 2009)

You completely missed my point (something I feel you have done all the way through your blog), but nevermind.

I hope your rabbits don't suffer and that they go on to live healthy lives. They are beautiful buns and I hope they get the life they deserve


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## paul2641 (Jan 1, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> You completely missed my point (something I feel you have done all the way through your blog), but nevermind.
> 
> I hope your rabbits don't suffer and that they go on to live healthy lives. They are beautiful buns and I hope they get the life they deserve


I know what you meant I shouldn't breed. But how will the species improve if I don't try? And They will continue to get the best care I can offer. I have to walk 40 min walk to get there food and I'm a very fast walker. So I do care.


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## paul2641 (Jan 1, 2009)

Update I spent an hour and a half this morning grooming the rabbits. Roger now has a bold patch because he came with some terrible knots that I could never brush out, So I just cut them off. His hair should regrow? OMG I think In the spring months Roger could turn to the brownish colour suki has All his roots are changing that colour, and I found I nice patch not visible that colour. Suki put up a fight but surprisingly there was no biting, she was relatively easy to groom as she only has the mane to maintain. Now she looks like a queen. Ohh and sukura was so easy to groom. And I a got the hair drier to there hair just to make it puffy. I think I will start doing this routine twice a week because before it was just combing.


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## Flashy (Jan 1, 2009)

Not anywhere have I said you shouldn't breed, that is your choice, but I do think if you are going to breed you should do it in a responsible manner, which you are not currently doing.


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## paul2641 (Jan 1, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> Not anywhere have I said you shouldn't breed, that is your choice, but I do think if you are going to breed you should do it in a responsible manner, which you are not currently doing.


Explain to be your point then? And how should I breed? I'm going to begetttinga new female soon. Prob next week. Only if I see something that could help my line.


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## Flashy (Jan 1, 2009)

Each post I have made I have said different things which whilst you have acknowledged some, others you haven't. My point is that I don't think you are doing this responsibly I'm not thinking about those you want to buy, I'm thinking currently of the two you have. I've said most of my points though, and you can go back and read them.

Currently I don't think you are being responsible and your bunnies may suffer because of that. That concerns me from two points of view, firstly, I made fatal mistakes from doing bad breedings (and no, I don't sell, everything I breed, I keep). I made those mistakes through ignorance, which is no excuse, but when you have the knowledge and choose to ignore that, that is worse, in my eyes. Also, I wouldn't want you to go through the pain I went through of knowing I killed those rabbits due to my mistake, and anyone who loves their rabbits and made mistakes would also feel guilt for them. Also, if I can discourage even one person from breeding irresponsibly, and help them breed more responsibly (in whatever way) then my buns did not die in vain, and something positive has come from what I put them through. Secondly, if you want to improve the breed, doing so in the current conditions is not realistic, and your doe will struggle immensely.

As a responsible breder you will also need to look at the other issues like the genes your buns came from, also what Peg said about them not being good breeding stock, finding them responsible homes and being willing to take them back if those homes don't work out, you will also need superior knowledge to all those who you from you because you will need to educate them on being a good owner.

I'm not against breeding in anyway, in fact, my best friend is a breeder, and a very good one, but I am against irresponsible breeding and all the repercussions of that.


ETA, if you don't have enough room to separate your male and female, how do you have enough room to buy a new bunny? I know you said you could possibly put your buck in the kitchen, but then where will the new bun go?


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## polly (Jan 1, 2009)

Hi Paul I saw your post in the rabbitry and didn't realise you had a blog Your buns are very pretty as pets but as breeding rabbits towards show or improving the breed they would not be any good. Sorry I don't mean to hurt your feelings its just Lionheads are smooth coated rabbits the only part of them that should be longer or woolier looking is their mane and the hair on their chest other than that the rest of them should have hair like a netherland quite short and roll back which means that when you take your hand over it in the wrong direction it should roll back into its natural position.

Also your colours do not go together genetically so you would not get any or very few babies out of a decent colour. The easiest way to start off is to get a breeding pair or trio that all are same colour or colours that work together like black and blue.

There are a lot of breeders in Ireland just not in your area. one part of Ireland is regulated with shows rules etc. Perhaps it would be better to try and find out about that because if you do thats your link to breeders who have brought their stock in from the UK which means that they will conform to thestandards that have been set to make a breed as good as it can be 

I hope that is of some use to you if you want to ask any more questions either post them in the rabbitry or pm me and I will try to help you


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## irishbunny (Jan 1, 2009)

I think you are going about breeding totally the wrong way, alot of the things Flashy has already pointed out that you skipped/missed. The most obvious thing is you still have a mature male and female living together? It also sounds like she's pregnant, because she's attacking you. You do know that if she has babies there she could kill them from the stress of being in that cage? Possible even injure the male?You seem to have rushed into breeding from the minute you got your rabbitsand have not spent that much time getting to know the animal, you need to spend time interacting with them, there's only so much you can learn from the internet, the rest comes from experience. If you want to improve Irish breeding you need to be a good role model.

What you should do now is get seperate cages for each of your rabbits, and get to know them and what the animal is like before rushing into breeding and running off getting more rabbits. From what the breeders are saying here, the rabbits you chose to breed aren't even a good match. You need to slow down and sort yourself out a bit. Get a cage for each of your rabbits and go from there, and don't buy anymore till your ready.


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## paul2641 (Jan 1, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> Each post I have made I have said different things which whilst you have acknowledged some, others you haven't. My point is that I don't think you are doing this responsibly I'm not thinking about those you want to buy, I'm thinking currently of the two you have. I've said most of my points though, and you can go back and read them.
> 
> Currently I don't think you are being responsible and your bunnies may suffer because of that. That concerns me from two points of view, firstly, I made fatal mistakes from doing bad breedings (and no, I don't sell, everything I breed, I keep). I made those mistakes through ignorance, which is no excuse, but when you have the knowledge and choose to ignore that, that is worse, in my eyes. Also, I wouldn't want you to go through the pain I went through of knowing I killed those rabbits due to my mistake, and anyone who loves their rabbits and made mistakes would also feel guilt for them. Also, if I can discourage even one person from breeding irresponsibly, and help them breed more responsibly (in whatever way) then my buns did not die in vain, and something positive has come from what I put them through. Secondly, if you want to improve the breed, doing so in the current conditions is not realistic, and your doe will struggle immensely.
> 
> ...


Well I actaully have were the tree was to put another hutch so that's grand. And I'm going to bond the new female to baby sukura.


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## paul2641 (Jan 1, 2009)

*polly wrote: *


> Hi Paul I saw your post in the rabbitry and didn't realise you had a blog Your buns are very pretty as pets but as breeding rabbits towards show or improving the breed they would not be any good. Sorry I don't mean to hurt your feelings its just Lionheads are smooth coated rabbits the only part of them that should be longer or woolier looking is their mane and the hair on their chest other than that the rest of them should have hair like a netherland quite short and roll back which means that when you take your hand over it in the wrong direction it should roll back into its natural position.
> 
> Also your colours do not go together genetically so you would not get any or very few babies out of a decent colour. The easiest way to start off is to get a breeding pair or trio that all are same colour or colours that work together like black and blue.
> 
> ...


What part of Ireland? and do you know any breeders? if you do I would be more then happy to travel from the south to thenorth to get some good stock. I Am now regretting for breeding purposes I didn't get rogers brother who Is the same colour as sukura, But unfortunately he has been sold. I still love roger like.


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## paul2641 (Jan 1, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> I think you are going about breeding totally the wrong way, alot of the things Flashy has already pointed out that you skipped/missed. The most obvious thing is you still have a mature male and female living together? It also sounds like she's pregnant, because she's attacking you. You do know that if she has babies there she could kill them from the stress of being in that cage? Possible even injure the male?You seem to have rushed into breeding from the minute you got your rabbitsand have not spent that much time getting to know the animal, you need to spend time interacting with them, there's only so much you can learn from the internet, the rest comes from experience. If you want to improve Irish breeding you need to be a good role model.
> 
> What you should do now is get seperate cages for each of your rabbits, and get to know them and what the animal is like before rushing into breeding and running off getting more rabbits. From what the breeders are saying here, the rabbits you chose to breed aren't even a good match. You need to slow down and sort yourself out a bit. Get a cage for each of your rabbits and go from there, and don't buy anymore till your ready.


I am going to need a new hutch so I will bring it up and get them separated soon. Roger and suki were separated but when we got sukura I couldn't bond sukura and suki together and I had to put suki back with roger. I am trying my best I really am.


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## irishbunny (Jan 1, 2009)

Could you try bonding roger with the younger female *for the time being* until you can get enough cages for all of them? At least that way the older female will have her own cage in case she kindles, since they have been together you won't know her due date.

I had said in another thread that it was unlikely the two females would bond...


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## paul2641 (Jan 1, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> Could you try bonding roger with the younger female *for the time being* until you can get enough cages for all of them? At least that way the older female will have her own cage in case she kindles, since they have been together you won't know her due date.
> 
> I had said in another thread that it was unlikely the two females would bond...


But couldn't roger get the younger female pregnant? But if not I will move them around because roger and sukura seem to get on. I let them play together in the back yard.


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## Flashy (Jan 1, 2009)

I think if you want to do the best you can you concentrate on the buns you have right now, and not even consider adding anymore until you have more accommodation and have learnt more.

If you start to listen to people and take things on board then potentially you could be very good, but only then currently your buns are at risk (the make and female together) and deserve better. You can definitely give them better, and I know you want to, so focus on them three, not on being a breeder for now.


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## paul2641 (Jan 1, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> I think if you want to do the best you can you concentrate on the buns you have right now, and not even consider adding anymore until you have more accommodation and have learnt more.
> 
> If you start to listen to people and take things on board then potentially you could be very good, but only then currently your buns are at risk (the make and female together) and deserve better. You can definitely give them better, and I know you want to, so focus on them three, not on being a breeder for now.


Suppose your right I have money so I will ask mam can I get another hutch.


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## irishbunny (Jan 1, 2009)

Ya you could be a great breeder, but I think you are rushing too much. She is not even three months old yet is she? He shouldn't be able to get her pregnant for another few weeks. How long is it going to take you to get another cage? I think it's important to get the older female away from him, since she could be expecting babies any day now.The younger femaleshouldn't be able to conceive for another month or so, but I would try and set a goal for yourself to get another cage in the next 2 weeks, just to be on the safe side. If you can't get another cage in the next two weeks or so then I would try and organise for someone to take her for awhile, until you can afford a new cage.


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## paul2641 (Jan 1, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> Ya you could be a great breeder, but I think you are rushing too much. She is not even three months old yet is she? He shouldn't be able to get her pregnant for another few weeks. How long is it going to take you to get another cage? I think it's important to get the older female away from him, since she could be expecting babies any day now.The younger femaleshouldn't be able to conceive for another month or so, but I would try and set a goal for yourself to get another cage in the next 2 weeks, just to be on the safe side. If you can't get another cage in the next two weeks or so then I would try and organise for someone to take her for awhile, until you can afford a new cage.


Money and space isn't an issue it's just my mam doesn't really want another cage in the house. But I'm sure I can convince her.


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## paul2641 (Jan 4, 2009)

Suki had 6 babies last night from the time of 2.10-2.20. we got Roger just in time. sukii has yet to feed the babies.


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## Sabine (Jan 4, 2009)

Aren't you very lucky it was the holidays and you were still up. It could have been a potential desaster otherwise. Have you a place to put Roger now. Don't keep them together as she could get pregnant straight away. have you posted in the Rabbitry section yet? I think it may take a while for the mother to feed the babies initially and then they only feed once or twice a day. make sure you get some breeder's advice through this


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## NorthernAutumn (Jan 17, 2009)

I'm waiting for pictures of Savannah, Paul!
I'm so glad to hear that she is getting her very own hutch


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## paul2641 (Jan 17, 2009)

*NorthernAutumn wrote: *


> I'm waiting for pictures of Savannah, Paul!
> I'm so glad to hear that she is getting her very own hutch


My sister will be home later tonight so I will ask. Oh and it's not a hutch it is a house cage but it's still better then being housed with another rabbit! I don't know should I keep some rabbits inside(the ones in the indoor cages) or move them all outside and just buy some more hutches? This is when there moved outside permantely.


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## paul2641 (Jan 17, 2009)

Posted pictures of Savannah in her intro thread, I will copy and paste them to the blog and write her story!!

Can someone tell me why I can't bond Sukura and Savannah?


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## Flashy (Jan 17, 2009)

When they are both spayed then you can try to bond them. They may reject that, but that will be down to the bunnies because obviously not all bunnies are bondable. As they currently are they are hormonal and could be likely to turn on each other and attempt to drive the other out of their territory. Plus Suki really needs a break having had such a rough time recently.

Edited, I got all my S bunnies muddled, lol, sorry. You still have the same problem. They need to be spayed before you attempt any bonding, else you risk them fighting and potentially killing each other.


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## paul2641 (Jan 18, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> When they are both spayed then you can try to bond them. They may reject that, but that will be down to the bunnies because obviously not all bunnies are bondable. As they currently are they are hormonal and could be likely to turn on each other and attempt to drive the other out of their territory. Plus Suki really needs a break having had such a rough time recently.
> 
> Edited, I got all my S bunnies muddled, lol, sorry. You still have the same problem. They need to be spayed before you attempt any bonding, else you risk them fighting and potentially killing each other.


Yeah I named them all with "S" to confuse people. Also people just so everyone knows suki has been getting loads of relax time. Would people mind if I started a new blog because this one has gotten really cluttered?


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