# Big Lump Found!



## the fluffies (Jul 14, 2009)

This is his 3rd lump :cry1:since last year. 

Let me tell u guys his abscess history.. 
Previously, he had a lump on his right soulder. It was a size of marble ball, it was on 5th May 2008:







Without anaesthesia, my vet made a hole with the biggest needle he has and pinched the pus out. 






On the way to recovery, he had a 2nd abscess, 2inches away from the first abscess. The 2nd abscess was found on 24th May 2008. 






The vet removed this one with the same method : made a hole, and pinched the pus out. 






The vet removed this one with the same method : made a hole, and pinched the pus out. Owh, it was a painful procedure. Poor baby 

But within a week, the abscess returned






The vet tried to make a hole, but the skin was too thick for the needle to penetrate into the skin. So the removal was unsuccessful. 







So the vet gave us a topical antibiotic and oral antibiotic and oral anti-inflam (sorry i cant get the meds name. My vet is too secretive about the drugs he's using h34r2) and asked me to put warm compress on the abscess. 

We are soooo lucky. The abscess went away in the next 2 weeks.


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## Flashy (Jul 14, 2009)

Poor bunny has been through the mill and sounds very lucky to have beaten the abscess with that treatment.

Are you saying you have found another lump on him?

He's a REALLY beautiful guy!


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## the fluffies (Jul 14, 2009)

This is the lump i found on last Sunday :


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## Flashy (Jul 14, 2009)

Oh dear, poor bunny.

Is your vet willing for you to suggest things that might work?

Some members on here treat abscesses with just medication, and some members have them surgically removed. It's not recommended to try and open and squeeze and abscess though.

Do you know what is causing them? Have you had the infection cultured?


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## the fluffies (Jul 14, 2009)

My friend, Somebunny (one of RO member) and her vet (which is far far away from me. I'm from north Malaysia. They're at central region of Malaysia) is helping me find a solution for my rabbit's abscess. I'm thinking about using the same method Somebunny is using on her bunn, Hans. But i have to wait for the drug to come, which is needs me to wait for a week or two. 

Today, i found out that the lump is getting bigger than yesterday. My rabbit, Dino is not touching his food. He looks really painful. I'm feeding him with Oxbow Critical Care. 

So while waiting for the drug to reach us, do u guys think it is okay for me to send him to the vet nearby to remove his abscess using the same method he had undergo last year? 

I read some articles saying that this method invites more infection or the infection will spread 

But i want to make my bunny feel a bit comfortable while us waiting for the drug. My vet here doesnt carry any painkiller for bunny. Any advice??


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## the fluffies (Jul 14, 2009)

Flashy, it has been a year he was free from abscess. My vet is practising a conservative way in treating animals. I dont think he is willing to get the infection cultured


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## Flashy (Jul 14, 2009)

I personally don't think that squeezing it would be ok, but that's my novice opinion.

Taking him to the vets and getting some pain medication to get him and also maybe a basic anti-biotic to hopefully stop the spread might be a good thing to do though.


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## the fluffies (Jul 14, 2009)

Can i put a warm compress on the lump to reduce the pain? Is it helps?


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## Flashy (Jul 14, 2009)

I'm not sure that would do much to be honest. He really does need some proper pain medication.

Is he eating anything at all? Pooing? Weeing?

There is the other remote possibility that this is not an abscess again, it could be something else, which is why it is worth seeing a vet.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 14, 2009)

This is a tough one
If you had the medication and could start it now then you could start the meds without opening it.

Does your vet have any antibiotics for rabbits at all that he could give him if he opened it. Does he have baytril??? (which is for for and cats)

if he is going to open and clean that outI cannot imagine the bun not being on antibiotics even if they are not the benacillin
and it is hard to conceive that he has no pain meds . Does he have tramodol? There is more than one pain med that could be used 

Randy has said that abscesses are like seeds ; they just spread out all over. 

if your bun has never received any antibiotics that is most likely why they are returning.

Did you already order the benacillin?


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## SweetSassy (Jul 14, 2009)

Poor baby. Sounds like you need to find a vet that is willing to work with you on finding out why he's getting these lumps. Is he getting bit by something? is he a indoor/ outdoor bunny?


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## Maureen Las (Jul 14, 2009)

Forgot to say that a warm compresses may make him more comfortable

Does your vet know anything about rabbit medication at all ?

Usually if the abscess was removed culture and sensitivity would be performd to determine which bacteria is causing the abscess.


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## the fluffies (Jul 14, 2009)

I already ordered the benacillin from Somebunny's vet. The vet said it needs a week or two for the drug to reach her. Once she gets the drug, i will drive all the way with Dino. It is 5-6 hours journey to get there. This vet said i still need to open the abscess. She said that using benacillin only (without open the abscess) is not works. 

Now i'm giving him the oral antibiotic (the same one he got last year). Got it from a vet nearby, but this vet refused to reveal its name  He asked me to open the pus, but i havent make my mind yet. He said open the abscess will relief the bunn..


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## Maureen Las (Jul 14, 2009)

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=11791&forum_id=10

This is from our library 

it will help give you more info ; some of the treatments in some of the articles are not current or preferred at this point


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## Flashy (Jul 14, 2009)

angieluv- for my own reference, why would the warm compress help?


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## the fluffies (Jul 14, 2009)

Dino is an indoor rabbit. We live in an apartment. Maybe he got a scratched by my cats or his partner while having his outing hours


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## the fluffies (Jul 14, 2009)

The vet i have in my place refused to do the culture test  He said, "no need.. abscess is normal in rabbits. Just give him the antibiotic and the anti-inflamation i gave, he will be okay," 

We have no metacam here. I can only get benacillin and painkiller when i go to see the other vet Somebunny recommended me. I'm waiting for Benacillin. Hope she can get it by this weekend.


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## Flashy (Jul 14, 2009)

I wonder if this might be one of the times that something like the baby aspirin might be an option because there ARE no other options? any thoughts angieluv?


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## Maureen Las (Jul 14, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> angieluv- for my own reference, why would the warm compress help?



For some reason I was thinking of this as a boil (soft and warm to the touch) whereas an abscess will be firm and hard...

so if it is firm and hard compresses won't do anything 

Thanks for catching that Tracy


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## SweetSassy (Jul 14, 2009)

Is there any way to find another vet? Him getting all those lumps don't seem normal.


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## the fluffies (Jul 14, 2009)

Most of the vet here only treating cats and dogs. Rabbits are new to them. They're veteran vets. They use conservative ways in treating animals. They will ignore our advice and will not try a new drug. Sigh.


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## Flashy (Jul 14, 2009)

*angieluv wrote: *


> *Flashy wrote: *
> 
> 
> > angieluv- for my own reference, why would the warm compress help?
> ...


Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo I wasn't trying to catch anything, just understand because abscess is soemthing I have not really dealt with much. But fair enough, that gives me a bit more understanding.


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## the fluffies (Jul 14, 2009)

*angieluv wrote: *


> *Flashy wrote: *
> 
> 
> > angieluv- for my own reference, why would the warm compress help?
> ...


It was firm and hard yesterday. But today it is getting bigger and there is a soft spot on the lump. If i show that to the vet here, he sure will cut that open and squeeze or suck it with syringe.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 14, 2009)

if the abscess is growing really fast and you have to wait several weeks then I may consider opening andscraping it it ...butI would wait to see if it is going to get larger and i would try to find out ifyour vet can give you a pain med for him


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## the fluffies (Jul 14, 2009)

Is there any alternative for pain relief? Any infant products safe on bunnies?


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## Flashy (Jul 14, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> I wonder if this might be one of the times that something like the baby aspirin might be an option because there ARE no other options? any thoughts angieluv?


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## Maureen Las (Jul 14, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> I wonder if this might be one of the times that something like the baby aspirin might be an option because there ARE no other options? any thoughts angieluv?



The vet probably has other drugs that could be used but doesn't know it himself; 

Iwould be conerned about giving Aspirin if it was opened up because of the potential for bleeding .

Fluffies posted that the vet gave anti- inflammatories ??


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## Flashy (Jul 14, 2009)

Ok, that's cool, I just wanted to throw the idea out there for the bunny  (I'm also learning too).


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## the fluffies (Jul 14, 2009)

*angieluv wrote: *


> *Flashy wrote: *
> 
> 
> > I wonder if this might be one of the times that something like the baby aspirin might be an option because there ARE no other options? any thoughts angieluv?
> ...


Yup, he gave me 2 meds. One is works as antibiotic (light pink color syrup). Another one is transparent red syrup, labelled as Pr. on the bottle. He said it is work as anti-inflamation. I will try to bring this meds to the new vet (in Kuala Lumpur when benacillin arrives) maybe she can helps me recognise the meds.


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## Flashy (Jul 14, 2009)

Do you have any of the anti inflammatory left?

any ideas (anyone) for how long it would be in date after being opened?


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## the fluffies (Jul 14, 2009)

Yes, i just got the new bottles of antibiotic and anti-inflam. He asked me to throw away the meds after being opened for 3 months.


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## tonyshuman (Jul 14, 2009)

I would not open the abscess. A treatment with injectible antibiotics is the most likely to actually heal the abscess, so I'm glad you're going to be using Benacillin on him. 

However, if you read somebunny's other thread, there is a bit of a conundrum in that the bottle of benacillin is marked in mg/mL, and all the treatment protocols we can find are for units/mL. We don't know the conversion from units to mg, so getting the correct dose of benacillin requires some guesswork. Make sure you also have a sterile salt solution to dilute the benacillin with, and that you get a lesson in how to inject sub-Q. It can be difficult to do correctly.

The pain relievers they prescribe here in the US for rabbits are Metacam (meloxicam), tramadol, and Buprenex (buprenorphine). The names without capitol letters are the compound name, the capitalized ones are the brand names. Metacam is a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug, like ibuprofen. Tramadol is a narcotic with opiod and seritonergic actions, and Buprenex is strictly an opiod narcotic. There may be restrictions on getting these drugs, depending on the local laws, as I know buprenorphine can be a drug of abuse (it is a problem in the UK) and I bet Tramadol can be too. 

You can also give rabbits ibuprofen or baby aspirin for pain, but it's really rare to do that, since Metacam is so easily available here. Also, they can be really hard on a rabbit's sensitive GI tract. I'll PM a member who has experience with them for her suggestions.
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=43773&forum_id=16&highlight=aspirin
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=17819&forum_id=16&highlight=aspirin
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=4234&forum_id=1&highlight=ibuprofen


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## the fluffies (Jul 14, 2009)

Somebunny told me about conundrum too. 

Thanx a lot for the links.


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## tonyshuman (Jul 14, 2009)

Ok, so you can use aspirin or ibuprofen for a few days, until you can get some metacam. Make sure he is well hydrated. If you suspect any bleeding, do not use aspirin. This site can help you calculate the correct dosage.

http://homepage.mac.com/mattocks/morfz/rx/drugcalc.html

edit: do not use acetaminophen (tylenol)


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## Maureen Las (Jul 14, 2009)

Claire

if she doesn't get an ever enlarging abscess opened what is she to do for the several week wait for the benacillin???


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## the fluffies (Jul 14, 2009)

I just woke up and checked on my Dino. He eats a bit. He just laying inside his cage. The lump getting slightly bigger. 

Thinking about sending him to my vet to squeeze out the pus as much as can to relief him until the vet in Kuala Lumpur gets the banacillin for me.


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## SweetSassy (Jul 14, 2009)

Poor Bunny. That has to be frustrating. I'll be praying for you and your bun. ray: Hope he gets some relief soon, and starts feeling better.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 15, 2009)

I just went back and re read your description of the vets method of dealing with the previous abscesses. 
You state that at one time that the one of the abscesses could not be pierced by the needle because it was too hard. At that time the vet administered an oral antibiotic, topicalantibotics and applied warm dressing to the abscess and the abscess went away 
.
Your vets method of dealing with abscesses is really primitive . 
Removal of an abscess that is done correctly would be a surgical procedure in which the abscess may be removed including the walls and any extraneous tissue that may contain infection. Sometimes antibiotic impregnated beads are placed in the abscess cavity. The rabbit then is placed on sytemic antibiotics and pain meds. If not placed on systemic antibiotics there is the chance of a full body infection. 

is there any way that your vet can give you topical antibiotics, oral antibiotic and warm dressings to keep the abscess under control until you can get the benacillin. 

Removal of an abscess if done correctly is not needed generally if the combination of antibiotics is correct and the dosage strong enough

I am concerned re. your vets method of opening with a needle and pushing the pus out . .Not the way to take out an abscess 
and is the rabbit anesthesized ; if not could die of the pain involved. 
I totally understand and feeling your dilemna ; believe me this has been on my mind butI feel that a more conservative approach until the benacilin arrives might be the best approach 
Also is there any other vets that you know of that may be better than the one that you are seeing right now? 
How is he doing tonight ?


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## TinysMom (Jul 15, 2009)

I am NOT an infirmary mod....but with all of my rabbits I am sure I've treated over 50 abcesses over the last 4 years. 

This is what I would do...if you have those meds and they still look/smell ok...I'd start using them.

I'd also give painkillers.

I like the hot cloth idea as it may help it come to a head and drain without you having to get it opened up.

I had one doe that had an abcess get to be almost tennis ball size & she hated to move. Then one morning she was hopping around and did binkies...turned out the abcess had burst on its own and she had a drainage hole the size of a quarter. 

I drained the abcess 2 times per day (since it was open on its own) for a few days and continued antibiotics for a month and painkiller for a couple of days if needed.

Other than the patch of white fur there (a year later)...you would never know she was so sick.


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## Flashy (Jul 20, 2009)

Just wondered how your bunny was doing?


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## tonyshuman (Jul 20, 2009)

Sorry I didn't respond earlier--I must have forgotten to press the "watch topic" button.

I have read that the best way to deal with an abscess is not to open it, but to give systemic antibiotics. If it will be several weeks before the antibiotics arrive, it may be good to have it removed surgically in the way that angieluv described. Puncturing and draining the abscess doesn't usually have a lot of success as it will frequently re-form, and the daily washing of the wound that's required to remove the very thick toothpaste-like pus doesn't allow it to heal very quickly. I would worry about opening it before you have the antibiotics, because it could re-form instead of heal.

Exactly how long do you expect to have to wait for antibiotics? I would give ibuprofen for now, perhaps some heat (heat can make pain lessen), and wait if it's less than 2 weeks. I really don't think it's ok to open the abscess up without having the benacillin there to treat with immediately after opening.


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## the fluffies (Jul 20, 2009)

On 15th July, I sent him to a nearby vet. The vet poke with needle and squeezed the pus out. The vet asked me to clean squeeze as many pus as i can, everyday. 

I'm still feeding him with the antibiotic syrup given by this vet. And he gave an antibiotic creme to apply on the lump. 

I noticed the creme is making the hole (made by the needle) getting bigger. Last Saturday 25th July, the lump burst out and left a 7-10mm diameter hole. 

Another vet called me on Sunday evening. She said the Benacillin is on the way. Probably will reach her tomorrow on Wednesday.


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## the fluffies (Jul 20, 2009)

Dino is eating well. No sign of pain after the 1st vet removed half of the pus.


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## the fluffies (Jul 20, 2009)

The 2nd vet said i need to take a long leave for the surgery. Since it is about 5-6hours (one way) journey from Penang to Kuala Lumpur, it is a very stressful journey for Dino. The vet said she will only perform surgery on the 3rd day. And we can go back to Penang on the 5th day. 

My boss will not approve the leave. So do u guys think is it okay if i go to Kuala Lumpur to take the drug, without bringing Dino for the surgery? 

The chances of benacillin to work on the pus will be lessen??


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## Flashy (Jul 20, 2009)

I can't believe I was stupid enough to open this thread and read your replies whilst eating my tea! Oops!

I'm glad your bun is doing ok. eating, drinking, pooing and weeing ok?

I think Randy often beats abscesses with just a combination of drugs- no surgery, so i wonder if with the right drugs it might be ok without the surgery. I don't know much about abscesses though so someone more knwoledgable will probably come along in a bit and answer that more.


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## tonyshuman (Jul 20, 2009)

Yes, the idea of only using drugs for abscesses comes from Randy. 

I think once the Benacillin has arrived, you should do what Peg (Tinysmom) said she did. Because the abscess has been opened and the surgery would be so difficult for you to do, treating with just Benacillin and flushing pus out of the wound should be good. Also, the goal of the surgery to remove the entire abscess is to do it before it opens up. I would stop flushing the wound after a few days. Peg, when you did this, did pus stop coming out? How did you know when it was ok to stop flushing the abscess daily?

When the Benacillin arrives, you can either continue with the oral antibiotic if you want or stop. I would stop the topical one because it seems to be damaging the wound. Are you flushing with plain water? No peroxide in the water, I hope?


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## Maureen Las (Jul 20, 2009)

*the fluffies wrote: *


> On 15th July, I sent him to a nearby vet. The vet poke with needle and squeezed the pus out. The vet asked me to clean squeeze as many pus as i can, everyday.
> 
> I'm still feeding him with the antibiotic syrup given by this vet. And he gave an antibiotic creme to apply on the lump.
> 
> ...


Do you know what the name of the creme that is making the hole larger is?


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## the fluffies (Jul 21, 2009)

*tonyshuman wrote: *


> When the Benacillin arrives, you can either continue with the oral antibiotic if you want or stop. I would stop the topical one because it seems to be damaging the wound. Are you flushing with plain water? No peroxide in the water, I hope?


I will stop the oral antibiotic on this Friday (to complete the antibiotic course, it has to be taken 5days a week, stop for 2 days, and starts another 5 days). I will start with the Benacillin on next Monday. 

Do u guys think it is okay to start the Benacillin after the 2 days? 

I already stop the creme usage since saturday. Now, I'm flushing with saline water (the one i use to rinse my contact lenses) and pat with surgical iodine once finish.


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## the fluffies (Jul 21, 2009)

*angieluv wrote: *


> Do you know what the name of the creme that is making the hole larger is?


Too bad my vet cannot reveal his med/drug


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## Maureen Las (Jul 21, 2009)

I would start the benacillin when it arrives


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## the fluffies (Jul 21, 2009)

The 2nd vet called me today. The Benacillin has arrived. Will collect it on Sunday. Somebunny will brings Hans to the same vet on Sunday. She will demonstrate how to administrate the drug. 

Thanx, guys! Will update Dino's status soon


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## Maureen Las (Jul 21, 2009)

I am so glad that you got it ; great


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## the fluffies (Jul 23, 2009)

Guys.. 
I believe u guys have read about Hans (Somebunny's handsome ND)

Hans and Streisand were my only hope. But now all i feel is scared and worried.. 

I've booked the ticket to Kuala Lumpur. I'm supposed to leave tomorrow nite and see Hans & SB on Sunday at the vet's place for the demostration on how to use the Benacillin. 

I'm not as strong as Somebunny.. But i want the best for Dino.. Sigh... Cant think or make any desicion at this moment


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## SweetSassy (Jul 23, 2009)

ray: I've been keeping up and reading your thread. Your in my thoughts and prayers. I wish nothing but the best for you and your bunny. I know your going through a rough time right now. God bless you.


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## Flashy (Jul 23, 2009)

I don't think this is a case of whether you are strong or not. I think it's a case of you doing what you think is best for your bun, whatever that might be. that's what Streisand did all the way through, just what she thought was best for her bun.

I know we've already talked about this but I just wanted to reiterate that bit.

Take some time to think then listen to your gut instinct as to what you think is best for Dino.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 23, 2009)

http://www.chrisrichards.com.au/uploads/Benacillin.pdf
This drug does not need refrigeration like bicillin so apparently the penicillin hydrochloride keeps it from losing its medicinal properties. 
I will try to look more into the penicllin hydrochloride ......
but this is not easy as I am not a pharmacist 
maybe when Claire comes on she will be able to look at this and make more sense of it....

Randy i believe had talked with Streisand about the use of that drug but she only lost contact with him in terms of the dosage. ..so I believe Randy thought the drug was OK...

it is the same as bicillin except for that one component ( I think)


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## tonyshuman (Jul 23, 2009)

real quick answer as I'm in the middle of something: I researched benacillin and found that the procaine in it is commonly used to reduce the pain of the injection, as it is a topical anesthetic. Is that what you're looking for?


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## Maureen Las (Jul 23, 2009)

Claire

Did you know that hans died 5 seconds after an injection?


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## Maureen Las (Jul 23, 2009)

The manner in which Hans died is not characteristic of a problems with penicillin drug. usually if penicillin is given orally it would wipe out the positive gut flora in a rabbit and the rabbit would develop diarrhea l
If the penicillin was given into a vein the animal would die much like Hans did but I doubt very much that she hit a vein; it is not easy to hit a vein unless you are out of the skin and into the muscle. 
We will keep researching this as much as possible.


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## tonyshuman (Jul 23, 2009)

Yes I did read that. I agree that it doesn't sound like a reaction to the penicillin that caused Hans's death. I would assume that hitting a vein with it would cause anaphylaxis, right?


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## tonyshuman (Jul 23, 2009)

Under "Acute Effects"

"As for benzyl penicillin sodium, severe, usually transient reactions with symptoms of severe anxiety and agitation, psychotic reactions, including visual and auditory disturbances, seizures, tachycardia and hypertension, cyanosis, and a sensation of impending death have occasionally been reported with procaine penicillin and may be due to accidental intravascular injection. Procaine has been implicated as a cause of these reactions, especially after injection of high doses. This reaction has been termed non-allergic, pseudoallergic, pseudoanaphylactic, or Hoigneâs syndrome. Procaine penicillin should not be injected intravascularly since ischaemic reactions may occur."

This says to me that if injected into the vasculature, procaine can cause death similar to how Hans died. But I think that SB did the injection right and didn't get it into a vein...


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## tonyshuman (Jul 23, 2009)

"Inadvertent intravascular administration, including inadvertent direct intra-arterial injection or injection immediately adjacent to arteries, of Penicillin G Procaine Injectable Suspension and other penicillin preparations has resulted in severe neurovascular damage, including transverse myelitis with permanent paralysis, gangrene requiring amputation of digits and more proximal portions of extremities, and necrosis and sloughing at and surrounding the injection site. Such severe effects have been reported following injections into the buttock, thigh, and deltoid areas. Other serious complications of suspected intravascular administration which have been reported include immediate pallor, mottling, or cyanosis of the extremity, both distal and proximal to the injection site, followed by bleb formation; severe edema requiring anterior and/or posterior compartment fasciotomy in the lower extremity. The above-described severe effects and complications have most often occurred in infants and small children. Prompt consultation with an appropriate specialist is indicated if any evidence of compromise of the blood supply occurs at, proximal to, or distal to the site of injection.1-9 (See [#section-9 PRECAUTIONS], and [#section-11 DOSAGE AND ADMINISTRATION.])"

"Immediate toxic reactions to procaine may occur in some individuals, particularly when a large single dose is administered (4.8 million units). These reactions may be manifested by mental disturbances, including anxiety, confusion, agitation, depression, weakness, seizures, hallucinations, combativeness, and expressed âfear of impending death.â The reactions noted in carefully controlled studies occurred in approximately one in 500 patients who received large doses of penicillin G procaine. Reactions are transient, lasting from 15 to 30 minutes. "

This is about penicillin g procaine for people, meant to be an IM injection. Doesn't say anything about death. ( http://wiki.medpedia.com/Penicillin_g_procaine_(Penicillin_G_and_procaine) )


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## tonyshuman (Jul 23, 2009)

Ok, so intravascular administration (into a blood vessel) of procaine is really dangerous. However, the symptoms are a bit more extreme than Hans experienced--namely, seizures preceding cardiotoxicity or respiratory failure.

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/167309-overview

Pen G benzathine can also cause cardiotoxicity if injected intravascularly.
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/document-preview.aspx?doc_id=577859
 
I found the LD50 for iv procaine--it's 35-45mg/kg (mice/rats). Sub-q, it's around 300mg/kg (guinea pigs). If SB was giving 0.2mL, which is what I can tell from the post, that's 34 mg of procaine. Assuming Hans is 1kg, that is in the range of the LD50 for an in injection.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 23, 2009)

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$Department/deptdocs.nsf/all/hrs3718
This relates to horses , scroll down to penicillin...reaction from hitting a vein ; there would have been a much more violent reaction.

Anaphylaxis is a severe allergic respone to components in the drug; this would causereactions like severe edema and swelling, including the throat , hives etc and could be life threatening.


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## tonyshuman (Jul 23, 2009)

There is anaphylaxis from penicillin, but procaine itself acts on sodium channels which could cause the heart to have arrhythmias and stop if injected IV. However, I would expect to see seizures from IV injection of procaine as well. I guess it's possible it caused arrythmia and heart failure without seizures, but it would be rare.


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## 12354somebunny (Jul 23, 2009)

I think I may have injected into a blood vessel, and the drug travelled to his heart  I'm so sorry, Hans.

Fluffies, benacillin was working for Hans. After 1.5wks, the abscess started to shrink. I was going to take a photo to show the improvements, but then Hans went to the bridge. If I were faced with an abscess again, I would still use Benacillin, or any other suitable version of bicillin. I'm still convinced that bicillin is the best way to treat an abscess. The vet wanted to operate on Hans but I refused to subject him to another round of operations (he had been sedated a couple of times before to have his incisors trimmed, and later on he went for an operation to remove his incisors. I just felt that he has had enough procedures done on him throughout his short life).

Just be careful with the injections. I used to pull the syringe back to see if any blood came back up, indicating that I had hit a blood vessel. But I've never seen any blood come back up and after a few times, I got too confident and injected without checking. That's my mistake and I feel so guilty for that.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 23, 2009)

Streisand 

Where were you injecting ? What area of body ?


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## 12354somebunny (Jul 23, 2009)

The flank, near to where the upper curve of his hip-bone is.


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## 12354somebunny (Jul 23, 2009)

I just heard from Marcy, I wrote to her about Hans' passing. She says that "an allergic reaction to penicillin would be more reactive and would take more than a few seconds. Subcutaneous pretty much eliminates hitting any vein or artery."

Marcy too had a rabbit that passed away during a sub-q injection. At that point, her rabbit was only getting the sub-q saline and the drug hadn't been injected yet. But somehow, the injection of the needle into her skin caused some sort of reaction, and she passed away.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 23, 2009)

Well that would make me feel somewhat relieved ... 
it's nothing you did
I had a link above that won't open; it described giving penicillin accidentally ( in a vein)to a horse and the horse had seizures and a very violent reaction. 

Idon't think you hit a vein either.


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## tonyshuman (Jul 24, 2009)

Now that I hear more about Hans's passing (in your other thread), it sounds like there was something else going on with him. You said that he was easier to catch in his pen, so he was probably lethargic to begin with. You said that he had his head tilted, he laid down, and gently took his last breaths. This really doesn't sound like the reactions I read about with either penicillin or procaine IV injections--they always involve seizures. It would be very strange to have a heart attack from these drugs without any twitching of the other muscles. They act on heart muscle the same way that they act on peripheral muscle, causing spastic contractions, which can lead to heart attack and seizures. I don't think you can have one without the other.

The tilt makes me worry that he had an infection elsewhere, perhaps in his inner ear or brain stem. It's also possible that he had an infection somewhere else and it got into the blood and caused sepsis, which can lead to death quickly like that.

I really don't think it's your fault, Streisand. First of all, it probably wasn't the injection that killed him--after reading your account of it, it sounds different from what I'd expect from an IV injection. And, even if it was the injection (which I now don't think is the case), it wouldn't be your fault. Anything that happened to him, you were doing the very best you could for him. You're not a vet, and you had the very very best of intentions. I don't think it was the injection that caused it, but even if it were, it wouldn't be your fault. 

I really think there was something else going on health-wise with Hans that you couldn't see and the vet didn't know about. Perhaps he had an infection somewhere else deep in his body that spread to the blood. Perhaps he had disease of one of the other main organ systems (liver, kidney, lung etc) that you couldn't tell from looking at him.

I'm so sorry that you lost him, but you cannot blame yourself. You went above and beyond to help him; you did more than most people would or could do for their animals. His death was out of your control--there must have been something else going on for him to pass away in that manner. Sometimes, even when we try our hardest, the result is not what we want. It is easy for me to think this way because in science it happens all the time (I do research): you may spend years trying to get something to work in the lab that makes sense based on the scientific theories we already know, but it never happens because there are things we don't know about at work.

So, back to the topic at hand. I think it's safe for you to use Benacillin on Dino, the fluffies. Getting training in how to do Sub-Q injection will help make sure you do it correctly. We always need to remember that even with the best treatment and diagnosis, we can't always save our animals, because there may be things going on we don't know about.


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## Flashy (Aug 16, 2009)

I just wondered how Dino was doing?


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## the fluffies (Oct 26, 2010)

It has been a long time since i update about Dino. 

This is the photo taken on 23 July 2009







The lump was burst, and there's a lot of pus. But a few weeks later, it just dried up itself and healed. 

It was more than a year ago. 

Now, he is totally fine.. No abscess since my last update. I'm keeping my fingers crossed and hope it will never come back. ray:


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## Maureen Las (Oct 26, 2010)

That is fortunate and lucky ; I hope thatDino's lumpdoesn't return also.


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