# Possible accidental breeding



## octavia (Jul 5, 2009)

Ok, I, like everybody have heard about accidental litters, and I have worked very hard to ensure that no opposite gender bunnies end up together even for a minute. However, today I found that one of my rabbits (4 mo old netherland dwarf) which is supposed to be a girl (has papers from a breeder) has testicles. Obviously this is a problem because this particular bunny has been socializing with my other two females. I had read that it is not uncommon for buns to mount each other as a show of dominance and that it happens while they work out the hierarchy within their social group. I did not consider this to be a problem as this little dwarf is pretty bossy. However, now that I know she is a boy, I realize that I have two possible pregnant girls. The two girls (they are definitely girls) are Jersey Woolys. Can anybody please tell me if this kind of mix is disasterous for the offspring? Do I need to immedely separate the female rabbits, they are quite close to each other. 

Any advice or information about what to look for would be greatly appreciated. Also, links or resources would be wonderful, I am doing research now, but any bit will be a huge help.

Thanks


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## bunnybunbunb (Jul 5, 2009)

First off I say leave the girls. I have friends who have had many does live together, have their babies together and raise them together with no problems. One even had two does that nested in the same box, with a choice of using their own each, and raised the babies together. Rabbits are group animals, as we all know.

I would expect babies because Netherlands mature faster than any other breed> My little Keebler is 5 months old and already bred to two diffrent does, whether either doe took We will not know for 3 weeks for my friend and 2 weeks for me(my friend can not palpate).

Is there any one around you that you can get to palpate? A rabbit, cat, dog, guinea pig, ect breeder? Heck, even you may can do it. I have experiance in palpation in a multitude of diffrent species so it comes natural for me and is very easy, in my opinion.

Either you keep them together or seperate them I say give them a nest box each, seeing as you do not know a date of which they may be due, and wait for 35 days. Not all does start nesting days before hand, mine always do it like an hour before kindling, so a box asap is a must, in my opinion.

By the way, how old are the does?


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## octavia (Jul 5, 2009)

Thanks so much for the info. They are approximately 2 years old.


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## bunnybunbunb (Jul 6, 2009)

Eek, well that could pose some problems but maybe not. I have heard from a netherland dwarf breeder that had bought a few netherland dwarf does that where 2 years old and not knowing they had never had babies. She bred them and they did wonderful, it was after when she found out they where older. Have you had them most of their lives? Any litters?

Do you have a vet? Maybe you could call and get their opinion on it if they have never had babies before.


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## octavia (Jul 6, 2009)

I don't know anything for sure. There was some speculation that one of them may be the mom of the other. I got them from a rescue. She thought they were probably close to two years old. They look identical to each other. Is two years old too young?


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## octavia (Jul 6, 2009)

Also, the girls are Jersey Woolys.


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## bunnybunbunb (Jul 6, 2009)

Yes, I understand they are Jerseys, I was just stating what a Netherland Dwarf breeder told me what happened to her.

2 years is to old for a first litter, their pelvic bones are less flexable, there is even debate between whether they fuse at a year old or not, so if they are pregnant things could go wrong. There may be pencil kits or they may not beable to pass them at all and die if they are not go to the vet and get them taken out.


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## octavia (Jul 6, 2009)

Oh, I understand. Thanks so much, I would never have thought of that. I have a lot to learn in a little bit of time. I did go ahead and email the breeder of the Netherland Dwarf, I hoped that they might be able to help out with information if nothing else.


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## BlueGiants (Jul 6, 2009)

Well, if you're going to have an accidental breeding, it's better that the buck is smaller. The babies won't be too big for the does to carry.

Obviously, I'd keep the boy away from the girls. My personal preference is to separate the does before they kindle. I've seen bonded does get along really well while raising litters together, and I've seen them almost kill each other and the babies. You can certainly take a chance, but I would watch them very closely for the entire 6 weeks they nurse.

4 months is a little early for a Nethie buck to start breeding, but not impossible... 2 years of age is little old to have a first litter (although, if one is the mother of the other, this isn't her first litter.)

Don't be mad at the breeder, I'm sure it wasn't deliberate. We've all had young rabbits get "whacked by the Gender Fairy" and suddenly change.... My daughter showed a 4 month old Mini Rex and put a GC leg on it as a doe... the following weekend it was disqualified for being a buck in the doe class! And the leg was awarded under a VERY prestigious ARBA judge... but it looked like a girl to me too! I think the rabbits try to deliberately fool us sometimes.


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## octavia (Jul 6, 2009)

Well, as far as living arrangements, what do you think about a compromise? My rabbits all live in Rabbit Condos that I have made. The girls are in a large one, I could just add a dividing wall down the center so they can be next to, but not with one another. 

I'm not mad at the breeder, anymore lol. Honestly when I came home today and saw testicles I was really shocked and upset. But now I'm over it, and im just trying to educate myself and prepare for what is coming. Should this end in baby rabbits, at least I have a friend that wants two. She was going to start looking for rabbits next month after she got moved into her new house. 

I absolutely love my buns, and having more of them would probably be manageable. I have to say, I will definitely be doing more frequent gender checks from now on lol!


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## undergunfire (Jul 6, 2009)

Are you sure the girls aren't spayed? Usually rabbits come spayed/neutered when they come from a rescue, but I do know that some non-reputable rescues and some animal shelters do not spay/neuter.


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## octavia (Jul 6, 2009)

They're not spayed.


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## undergunfire (Jul 6, 2009)

*octavia wrote: *


> They're not spayed.


Can you get them in for e-spays? This may be you're best bet in ensuring that there will be no complications because of the girls' ages. I would hate to hear of them dying due to a hard labor....or the kits being squeezed to death in the birth canal (pencil kits).


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## octavia (Jul 6, 2009)

I may consider this as an option, though I admit, it is something that I would rather not do. At this time, I would like to gather as much information as possible so I can make good informed decisions.


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## BlueGiants (Jul 6, 2009)

It can be tough to find a vet willing to spay a pregnant rabbit. Spaying is tricky under simple circumstances. A lot of vets won't do a bred doe unless you're willing to accept all the risks.


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## undergunfire (Jul 6, 2009)

*BlueGiants wrote: *


> It can be tough to fine a vet willing to spay a pregnant rabbit. Spaying is tricky under simple circumstances. A lot of vets won't do a bred doe unless you're willing to accept all the risks.


Is the doe early or late in pregnancy? If she is early, then I have never heard of a vet refusing to do an e-spay. Vets have also done many e-spays on RATS who were pregnant...so yes, it is risky for rabbits...much it is much riskier for rats.

I think e-spaying definitely should be considered, as I mention due to the reasons above . The girls should be spayed anyway, as it is more beneficial to their health.


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## octavia (Jul 6, 2009)

I appreciate your input, but, I really look at this as a last resort, and not something I would like to do. I can't say definitely that these rabbits have had a litter in the past, but given their origins, I would say that it is likely. 
Also, you are very lucky to have vets near you that are so well versed in small animal care. I have owned rats for over 15 years and it is quite difficult to find a vet who is astute in rat care. But, that is actually a relative rarity among vets. I am still doing research, and I welcome all kinds of information, however I would like very much to support the girls and make them comfortable and hope that things work out. 
Also, nobody is saying that rabbits should not be spayed, that just isn't the issue that I am facing atm.


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## murph72 (Jul 6, 2009)

Octavia,

I agree with Blue Giants. It's a good thing the buck is a smaller breed than the does as the babies will likely be smaller than if they were pure bred. I'd just keep an extra eye on them in case you see signs that they are ready to have the babies. My does usually aren't interested in food and will sulk around prior to giving birth. Some does wait until the last moment to pull hair, which would be another indication. I have other does that get down right grumpy. If you see any of these signs, watch the doe to make sure she isn't struggling. Read up on stuck kits in the meantime and make sure you're ready to assist if necessary. Hopefully it won't be an issue since dad is pretty small...but, better safe than trying to find information in the event of an emergency.

I think your idea about the condo separation is a good one. I too have seen some does that would kill their best friends to protect their babies. Some does are very nervous around new babies and you wouldn't want your other doe to become injured as a result. My nicest doe (most friendly, kissy, loves to be snuggled bunny) bit my hand so hard I think it hit bone on the day she had her first litter. She didn't go back to her friendly self until a week later. 

Good luck...and if you need any help let us know.


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## undergunfire (Jul 6, 2009)

*octavia wrote: *


> I appreciate your input, but, I really look at this as a last resort, and not something I would like to do. I can't say definitely that these rabbits have had a litter in the past, but given their origins, I would say that it is likely.
> Also, you are very lucky to have vets near you that are so well versed in small animal care. I have owned rats for over 15 years and it is quite difficult to find a vet who is astute in rat care. But, that is actually a relative rarity among vets. I am still doing research, and I welcome all kinds of information, however I would like very much to support the girls and make them comfortable and hope that things work out.
> Also, nobody is saying that rabbits should not be spayed, that just isn't the issue that I am facing atm.



I do understand. I will not "bash" anyone because I do know a lot of people see e-spays as an abortion (just saying in general). We all have our own views and opinions, but I am glad you have at least considered it an option in the last resort.

I don't have a good rat vet, at all ...they are just good with neuters. I did have a rat vet that I really loved and she loved my rats...but she moved her office 4 hours away. I wake up every day hoping my rats stay healthy! Luckily, I have meds on hand and in a worse comes to worse situation...I am sure my vet's office who neutered the boy rats will be able to help us.


Anyway...if the girls do carry their babies all the way, then I hope for the best :hearts.


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## octavia (Jul 6, 2009)

I can't imagine having a vet who does rat neuters. That must be enormously helpful with males. I had a sweetheart of a male many years ago that went through puberty and became murderously hateful to other rats but was a sweetie to people. I always wished he had been able to live with others without, well, killing them. 

On another note, my girl turned boy has been playing quite nicely with my other male today. He is very social, so that makes me happy. I did stop and do a testicle check with the both of them again just to make sure :thumbup


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## Bunnymom,K (Jul 6, 2009)

Separate the buck. The two does may do just fine together- just watch them closely. I would give them each a nest box just in case and as it's been stated before wait about 30 days, if nothing happens then there's no need for concern. With a small buck I wouldn't worry too much.. there is more risk with a doe kindling for the first time after a year or so of age- but I wouldn't get yourself too worked up over it. Best of luck and do keep us informed.


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## murph72 (Jul 6, 2009)

Is the other buck neutered since this one isn't? I'd hate to see them turn aggressive on each other, which unneutered bucks tend to do. You've got enough issues with worrying about the girls without worrying about the boys too!


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## octavia (Jul 6, 2009)

The other buck (an angora) is not neutered yet, both of them are still a bit young, I wanted to wait until he was 6 mos before neutering. I do have a neutered male, but he detests my netherland dwarf because he is "mount happy". I will probably let the unneutered males socialize together as long as they are civil, not in the cage but out in the house. My other young male (angora) is mostly free roaming as he is so well behaved, and is easily my favorite bun. I won't move the two into the same cage until they are both altered just to be safe. 

I'm probably going to move the girls into my bedroom to give them some quiet and keep the boys away.


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## aurora369 (Jul 7, 2009)

If the testicles are descended, you can have the bunny neutered. It is not necessary to wait until 6 months. It is just that 6 months is the average age that a bunny is mature enough for the testicles to descend. For small rabbits like netherland dwarfs 4 months is often more than old enough, where as with large breeds like flemish giants, you often have to wait till closer to a year before neutering.

You do have to keep the boys isolated for girls for about a month after their neuters, because they can still get a female pregnant. It takes a while for all the sperm in their system to die off after the neuter.

I would check out your local vets in case of a delivery emergency. Because the does are older, there is a larger possibility that they could get stuck kits or have other birthing complications. I would have a good vet on standby just in case something goes wrong. Nothing worse than trying to find a good vet at 1 in the morning when your girl has a stuck kit or is bleeding severely.

I think a divider down the NIC cage will work well. However, if you end up with babies, you will need to devise some sort of baby bumper as the holes of the NIC grids are big enough for little babies to squeeze through. I have double up the grids or used cardboard in the past.

--Dawn


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