# My sick bun



## Thumperina (May 29, 2018)

Paul is approx 5 yo and overweight. About a month ago I took for him to the vet as he wasn't eating. The vet did blood work (CBC didn't work for some reasons -- he wanted us to come back to do it later) his bio chemistry looked OK. The vet prescribed Reglan for motility (anybody familiar with it? ) , meloxidyl, critical care and some sub-q fluids. Paul has rather frequent breathing and the vet said it was because my rabbits don't drink any water.
My rabbits unfortunately don't eat any hay as well (or they just nibble on it). No water, no hay. They eat grass in the yard in the morning and in the evening, Oxbow pellets, and vegetables (I have to say - lots of vegetables since I am concerned about water intake). They never had any issues from a lot of veggies. Their poops are not as large as indoor buns that eat hay have, but they never had runny poop from too much veggies.
I do believe that Paul has some urinary issues due to water intake not being sufficient. He pees little here and there...which probably causing him pain.
I started treatment of everything mentioned above and Paul seemed to be better. I also has been doing the same treatment to his mom, Thumperina (my another bun) who was supposed to die from cancer last Fall (according to another vet). She is another story...
Suddenly, several days ago Paul got worse. It probably was about the same time when the real heat started... It was rather mild before. I had to do a lot of changes with their housing , I have to bring them inside from about noon to about 7 to avoid overheating. The garage where they used to sleep is now impossible to use since it's not air controlled. I attempted to have them spend a night outside in the hutch which they never did before and they freaked out. Otherwise I have to bring them into the house overnight too, they hate it.
It was Friday eve before the Memorial Weekend and I was unable to take Paul to the vet. His breathing was loud, I would say wheezing, his was seen even shaking (got me scared)... We made it thru the 3 day weekend. I was giving him critical care and pain meds. I prayed that he didn't have an infection. He is producing mushy cetatrops, a lot of them... This morning his stool was of a color and consistency of a loose critical care..
The same vet (he is a male) was out sick , I took him to the lady vet who was rather useless. I refused an X Ray because financially I am drained at this time, she said she had to send blood to the lab so we didn't do blood. His temp was 103 something (same as a month ago, which the previous vet said could be due to stress). She gave me Baytril (without any confirmation of an infection).
Right after, I went to the previous vet and asked if they could perform CBC for us since they owed it to us.. I told them I had baytril from another vet but didn't feel like just giving it. They did CBC and said it looked fine (she looked under the microscope). She said that Paul doesn't have an infection and all his problems must be from the stress.
Is it correct to assume that if his CBC is normal then he for sure doesn't have any bad things that require AB therapy?
I have a feeling that my both buns started having excessive cetatrops since I am feeding them critical care. I dont give them much - very little for water and fiber.

What should I do now if Paul eats no hay and drinks no water ? It's HOT outside so I need to feed them veggies but they don't seem to eat them well.


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## JBun (May 29, 2018)

It sounds like he's developed diarrhea. Whether or not the stress caused it originally(which it can), it's due to an overgrowth of pathogenic bacteria which would require antibiotics, but the proper one. And baytril isn't necessarily the right one to be using unless the diarrhea is yellowish colored and due to e. coli. If it's more brown colored, the diarrhea could be due to the clostridium bacteria, which would require the antibiotic metronidazole, and cholestyramine to absorb the toxins released by the bacteria. This would also require extra fluids, which is usually accomplished by giving sub q fluids. So if your bun really does have diarrhea caused by clostridium sp., this is actually very critical and needs immediate treatment with the proper meds, and even then it's often fatal. Not saying that your bun absolutely has this, but the type of poop you are describing sounds like diarrhea, and if so true diarrhea is always a critical illness in rabbits regardless of the bacteria causing it.
http://wildpro.twycrosszoo.org/S/00dis/Bacterial/Clostridial_enteritis_rabbits.htm

Aside from that, the cause of the stress could be due to an underlying illness. With the increased respiratory effort and noisy breathing, I would suspect something else to be going on internally that isn't showing up in a blood test, and doubt it has anything to do with his fluid intake(which may actually be fine if they are eating mostly moist and not dry vegetation, like wild rabbits do). Things that I would be suspicious of being the cause of the breathing irregularities if they have been an ongoing thing, are a possible mass like a thymoma, or he could even have an enlarged heart. If the breathing problems have been short term(as in occuring for one day, though can be reoccurring) it could be due to something like bloating/gas occurring. These are just guesses of course, based on limited info, so I could be completely wrong and it could be something else entirely. Only way to know would be to have further diagnostics done.

With the diarrhea going on and the underlying health issue, I'm afraid things aren't looking very good. Just the diarrhea itself can be a very critical illness and not often survivable if it's progressed to be more severe. These of course are worst case possibilities, but it may not be as bad as this. I just can't know as I'm not there seeing it. It could be that the breathing and stress was from heat stroke if it was really hot that day and your bun overheated.

Another possibility with you mentioning a little bit of peeing here and there, is that he could have urinary issues such as bladder sludge from calcium build up, bladder stone, or a UTI. In which case, baytril and meloxicam could be helpful to treat the infection and inflammation. Though if there is bladder sludge or a stone, that would need to be taken care of as well.


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## Thumperina (May 29, 2018)

JBun, thank you so much! How do we make sure what he has, is there any tests that can be performed? I am afraid that my vet hasn't dealed with it and I don't have access to a better vet. Or should I just ask for metronidazole prescription?
Increased breathing rate is always with him, but loud breathing stopped. I have a feeling that the noises that he was making was really a reaction on me handling him way too much.
Regarding his stool, it was sort of like critical care consistency this morning, then later it was more shaped but still wet and soft and now, I checked, it seems like he has regular more or less dry droppings that are just not perfectly round.
Do I understand correctly that if he has clostridium sp , it would be highly contagious to my another rabbit?


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## JBun (May 29, 2018)

If he doesn't have the diarrhea any more, then he probably doesn't have clostridium. That's just if he still had the diarrhea. So he may be in the clear for that.

If he seems to be having urination issues, I would consider giving the baytril, and meloxicam as well. It could be he has a urinary tract infection and that's what set this all off. Just something to consider.


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## Thumperina (May 29, 2018)

thank you. Baytril won't mess anything up? I am reading so much about improper use of antibiotics that I am afraid of antibiotics in general. 
Also, what would be a way to make sure that he has bacteria in urinary tract? Urinalysis?


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## Thumperina (May 29, 2018)

but anyway, critical care won't make anything worse, right? should I give critical care? I saw him eating some veggies but not much


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## JBun (May 30, 2018)

They can check the urine for blood, they can do a urinalysis, to determine if he has a UTI. Baytril doesn't usually mess up their gut bacteria. That is why it's so commonly prescribed to rabbits, but on the rare occasion a rabbit can have a negative reaction to it. Usually it's well tolerated though, not necessarily the taste. Most rabbits detest the taste of it.

I'm just throwing ideas out there as to what could be going on with your bun, but I'm just making guesses from the details you've shared. But that's all they are is guesses. With your rabbits being outdoors most of the time, it's going to be harder to pick up on the subtle clues that help point to a specific illness, and it's these subtle changes in body language and symptoms presented that can point to a possible cause in some instances.

If he's used to getting oxbow pellets, the critical care ingredients are similar so shouldn't cause any gut problems. But it's possible it could have been the cause of the messy poop, or it could have been one of the meds he was getting.


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## Thumperina (May 30, 2018)

thank you JBun
This night was cool, they spent it in garage that they are so used to. I don't find any liquid poop, all of the right consistency but some of not round shape... and size isn't great but it's pretty normal for my rabbits. Loud breathing stopped but he starts making this noise when he sees me (now I know, it's his reaction to being manipulated too much) 
Interestingly, i didn't find any cetatrops at all. usually he produces a lot of them and leaves them behind.
He is just looking sad and unhappy. Doesn't seem to have much appetite. But I m sure, if I brought some treats, he would rush for them (Im not giving any.. I know it's not a possibility in this situation)
I will be taking him for an X ray when I am paid.
I opened the door in the morning, the female ran out immediately. Paul is still lying down there. But it's, again, rather normal for him. It's wet outside.
Tough choice of giving baytril or not...


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## Kita channel (May 30, 2018)

Good advice in previous replies but may I add, if your rabbit is overweight make sure fruit is only given as a treat, 1 time a week. Usually it is 1 to 2 times a week but that applies to rabbits in the healthy weight range. Also try and let him run around everyday. Pellets can also have a high fat content (especially low quality ones) so make sure you are not giving too much of it, he needs more hay than pellets. Hope this helps


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## Thumperina (May 30, 2018)

thank you. He has all opportunities in the world to be running around. Yes, I know about treats. 
Oxbow for rabbits isn't a low quality pellets but he is not eating them now at all, I think. No appetite. 
What about Oxbow Simple rewards veggie treats? are they no-no as well ?


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## Carolann Elliott (May 30, 2018)

Hi Thumperina, sorry to hear you’re all having a rough time. While you are checking other things out, i think it’s very important to keep your buns cool - their bodies are designed for a cool climate, and heat is a huge stressor for them. You didn’t say why they hate being inside; hopefully you can sort that out for them.

Otherwise, it’s likely that the greatest help you could give is to transition them to a hay diet. The rabbit digestion is designed for large amounts of low quality food, Rich food (pellets, treats, veggies) typically causes a whole host of problems and I suspect that heat, age, weight and shedding (I’m assuming your rabbits began shedding in about February?) have tipped the balance for Paul. Rabbits typically prefer rich food when they can get it, so it takes a combination of things to switch back to hay. Usually, decreasing the pellets helps a great deal. Many rabbit owners use pellets as an addon, sort of like a vitamin pill, giving a tablespoon up to a quarter cup daily. I use the daily pellet ration as a treat, spread out through the day, as well as mixing some of it into the hay so that he has to forage for it. There are lots of ways to encourage hay eating. The House Rabbit Society is a good site, and the Facebook group Bunny Proofing will give lots of workable ideas.

For water, try presenting greens wet. Rabbits often seem to drink only once a day, so it’s easy to miss. If necessary, you can syringe feed water, but it sounds like he’s already eliminating a lot of water, so this may not be the major concern at the moment.

Best wishes to all of you!


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## Kita channel (May 30, 2018)

Oxbow is ok to give but I would limit to 1 or 2 times a week just like fruit. Not sure if you know this but also carrots are high in sugar for rabbits and they are considered a treat and too much can cause weight gain. To get him to eat his pellets maybe switch to a different brand or type.


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## Thumperina (May 30, 2018)

Kita channel said:


> Oxbow is ok to give but I would limit to 1 or 2 times a week just like fruit. Not sure if you know this but also carrots are high in sugar for rabbits and they are considered a treat and too much can cause weight gain. To get him to eat his pellets maybe switch to a different brand or type.


yes of course I know that carrots are high in sugar and not a good daily food. Thumperina won't eat carrots at all lately (she became very picky even about treats), and I can't remember how long ago Paul was given carrots. For treats, they get dry apple slices (and I do know that they are high in sugar, I am not feeding a lot) and Oxbow Simple rewards veggie treats (Thumperina is also sometimes picky with them). 
I don't know where you live, but here in US we don't have a whole variety of healthy pellets (at least not that I know of). Another brand is Sherwood Forest but my buns refused it. He is not eating pellets because he is not feeling well. However, this morning I gave him a large piece of kale when he was alone in the hutch, and he ate it completely with the stem ! I hope his appetite will come back


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## JBun (May 30, 2018)

I'm glad he ate something. I guess it's just keeping an eye on him now and hopefully he perks up soon. If you still have some of his meloxicam, I would be inclined to give some. If he's in pain from something, it should help at least a little.

I'm not sure about the oxbow treats as I haven't ever used them. But something to keep in mind about most any treat including oxbow, is that it usually contains grain and sugars, so is going to be high in carbs, which isn't usually a good thing for most rabbits.

Just FYI for those of you also commenting on this thread, Thumperina is a longtime member with a more complicated living and feeding arrangement for her rabbits. Her rabbits are mostly free range outdoors with a more forage based diet, so the typical advice for most rabbit owners isn't really going to be applicable here.


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## Thumperina (May 30, 2018)

thank you, JBun and everybody! He seems to be doing better. I am recalling about probably overdoing treats just before he got worse. I forgot to mention, they both love banana... With his weight of 12 lbs (yes...12  banana should be out of the question. But they both are so happy to get a small piece (stopped with bananas right now, of course!)
It's very useful to be learning about conditions like clostridium, just to know!
Anybody had any experience with Sherwood pet health products? they claim they have some supplements, I have gotten urinary support and joint support tablets. They didn't eat from my hand so I was putting them into their pellet bowl. Thumperina didn't accept them, but Paul was eating them. Not sure how much of a use they are... But they could be used instead of treats, since he can't treats and these probably taste like treats. They are not cheap... I am wondering if they are not a scam.
https://store.sherwoodpethealth.com/urinary-support/
https://store.sherwoodpethealth.com/joint-support/
https://store.sherwoodpethealth.com/immune-support/


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## Thumperina (May 31, 2018)

Just another thought. I use cardboard boxes a lot around my rabbits. not type of shipping cardboard, I get mine at ALDI, I serve veggies in a flat box top after throwing some hay in it, they prefer shallow (cut off) boxes with hay to poop rather than doing it in a litter box, I have some cardboard boxes for them to hide, and I know that Paul likes to chew some cardboard off these boxes. I just see that cardboard chunks are missing. Sometimes I see chunks around being shredded, but mostly they are just missing. Which means he eats them? I wonder if he is full of cardboard?


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## Popsicles (May 31, 2018)

They can eat the cardboard (as long as it doesn’t have lots of ink) assuming they are getting lots of fibre in their diet to help in move along, and it isn’t obsessive and replacing eating the normal diet. My bunny eats all the cardboard she chews (no mess for me to clear up haha) and she’s never had any issues.


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## Thumperina (Jun 1, 2018)

thank you Popsicles. I am afraid that my cardboard is not plain. It's colored. However, he doesn't seem to eat much.
Another question that I am having: how meloxicam and meloxidyl differ? I have been using meloxidyl. Is there a need to monitor vitals when it's used over long period of time? Also, can we trust online pharmacies that they would send you an original product, not counterfeit ? Which pharmacies are trustworthy?


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## JBun (Jun 1, 2018)

Meloxicam is the active ingredient in Meloxidyl. Meloxidyl is just the brand. I've used it long term for my old arthritic rabbit. There is some risk that it can affect the kidneys, so some vets may want to do a blood test to check kidney function. Your bun just had a blood test didn't he?

Most US online pharmacies would be reliable. Especially when you are using a prescription to get prescription items. Getting pharmacy items from overseas would be more risky. Online is the cheapest way to get prescription meds for pets. I got my rabbits meloxidyl online, from Valley Vet. I've also ordered from Drs. Foster and Smith. But there are plenty of others. You can always check online reviews as some companies don't always have the best reviews, usually from problems with orders and poor customer service.

Just a comment on the cardboard eating. A small amount isn't usually going to be a problem, but large pieces and amounts ingested could pose a risk of intestinal obstruction. Reason being is cardboard doesn't disintegrate but can form a gooey mass in the digestive tract. I have read of accounts of rabbits developing an obstruction from cardboard ingestion. So it can happen. But that said, usually it's not going to be a problem for the majority of rabbits.


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## Thumperina (Jun 1, 2018)

thank you JBun
Both rabbits are doing decently. 
Must veterinarians release the prescription for filling elsewhere, not in their practice? I mean, do I have a right to demand a prescription copy if I wish to take it somewhere else? (they like people to get their expensive meds, of course)


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## Thumperina (Jun 1, 2018)

JBun said:


> Meloxicam is the active ingredient in Meloxidyl. Meloxidyl is just the brand. I've used it long term for my old arthritic rabbit. There is some risk that it can affect the kidneys, so some vets may want to do a blood test to check kidney function. Your bun just had a blood test didn't he?


do you mean they need to check kidney function BEFORE pain medication is given? Yes, Paul just had his blood checked.. and he is not taking meloxidyl for a long time . I am more concerned about Thumperina who is taking it over much longer period. I can't recall if her kidney function was checked back in November when it was prescribed, I think it was... It's not been given to her non-stop since November, but still given more or less regularly. After being real bad last November, she perked up and was doing rather good until this May (basically all cool weather months), at first I was getting pain med for her then I stopped until she also showed some decline this May

Can medication over long period damage internal organs?


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## JBun (Jun 1, 2018)

Yes. You can just say you would like to order the prescription online and that you will have the company call to confirm the prescription. Some vets will try to make you think you can't do this because of the reason you stated, they make money from selling the meds to you, but they can't deny you if you request to get the med somewhere else. 

There are times when it's better to get it from your vet despite the mark up. Such as when it's an immediate need and your rabbit needs the med right then or that day, when it's more convenient to get it from your vet, or when you only need a small amount and it would be more difficult or more expensive to buy a larger bottle online. 

One thing you have to make sure though when getting your med online is that they have what you need and you want to make sure on the price. If you're wanting meloxidyl, that's an easy one to get online and will usually save you quite a bit to not be getting it from the vet.


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## I am Jude The Bunny Mom (Jun 2, 2018)

Hi


Thumperina said:


> thank you. Baytril won't mess anything up? I am reading so much about improper use of antibiotics that I am afraid of antibiotics in general.
> Also, what would be a way to make sure that he has bacteria in urinary tract? Urinalysis?


Hi fellow Bunnie Mom. You and JBUN are so smart about rabbit stuff!


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## Thumperina (Jun 2, 2018)

Hi Jude,
I am not that smart about rabbits stuff (otherwise my bun wouldn't been so overweight) but I agree that JBun is a real expert, I am so happy she is here, helping so many bunny owners. 
Yesterday the weather was a real disaster. 95F that feels like107F, I have never seen such a huge difference between the actual temperature and "feels like" temp. Even at 10pm there was still no air to breath. Thankfully, its not too often that we have this kind of humidity. I know there are people that keep their bunnies strictly outdoors... not sure how they survive... Just hot is different than extremely humid. I myself couldn't breath. However, we ran into a different problem. Today I brought Thumperina indoors and was giving her medication and critical care. I noticed that a tick was crawling on the surface she was on and I was going to get it and kill it but she was faster - she moved fast and seemed to eat it (???). While I was feeding her, another, small tick nymph, appeared on her fur surface. Darn, I don't want any risks of infesting the house with ticks. My child spends a lot of time in the room where rabbits are when they are indoors, and I myself sleep in that room. Every summer I am risking my health while crawling under bushes trying to get my rabbits out of there, and now my house and my family is at risk. So very frustrated! I will get Revolution on Monday for sure. How often does it need to be applied? I have read every 7 days and this sounds awful expensive!


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## Popsicles (Jun 3, 2018)

Hi Thumperina, you would only need to reapply the revolution every 4 weeks, but the issue is that it is not 100% effective against ticks, and even then it is only effective against some species. Even if you treat her, ticks can still jump on and off her and potentially be carried into the house, even without being embedded. The best control would be to try and clear the underbrush and sweep up dead leaves etc that make a nice environment for ticks to live in. You’ll also have to check her over every time you bring her in, if your garden is so high risk. Revolution can be good if it is a one-time infection with ticks, but with repeated exposure it is impossible to get rid of them all.


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## Thumperina (Jun 3, 2018)

thank you Popsicles, there are no leaves under the bushes, just some dirt without anything, and grass that surrounds the bushes.
Does anyone know what should be meloxidyl dosage per kg of weight for a rabbit? Just wanted to make sure that the right one is prescribed.
Last night was a cool night, I let my buns out at 6am as usual but Paul hasn't left the garage at all. It was cool in there, he was lying down looking sad. He finally ate a large piece of kale, I saw him making a puddle of urine - it didn't look bad, wasn't a large amount though. He is clearly in discomfort, what would be the most important diagnostics that I should proceed with? XRay? Urinalysis? Fecal flotation ?
Finance is tough given it's a summer break... I just wasted another $80 taking him to a doc that was no help. I still haven't given him any Baytril. Should I start it? 
Thumperina is another story... She leaves the garage immediately, she is running around each morning, she is eating grass, for some reasons she doesn't eat her morning veggies anymore even though it's her favorite stuff (not sure why) but she eats her evening-night veggies. And she has lost a lot of weight since November. She was on the heavy side, now she is slim, and I can feel her backbone very well. She has frequent breathing even when she is indoors and shouldn't be hot. She certainly requires some serious diagnostics... she is taking meloxidyl.


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## Popsicles (Jun 3, 2018)

If he is in pain when urinating and from what you have described the most important thing I would personally do would be urinalysis, as that’s relatively cheap and easy to do and should be done in-House usually.. an X-ray would certainly be useful buyback I understand that money is tight. Definitely start on the baytril because if it is a simple UTI that will clear it up nicely and you will notice an improvement so quickly with him. Think we all know how uncomfortable UTIs can be! 
About thumperina not sure if I missed that post.. What is it that’s up with her? She sounds perky enough! And feeling the backbone is ideal for a bunny, as long as it isn’t sharp edges and bony protrusions. But to lose lots of weight too quickly would be a bit worrying.


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## Thumperina (Jun 3, 2018)

For how many days should I give Baytril? The vet gave me somewhat a large supply...
When you say "Done in-House", what do you mean? I thought to ask them to get urine sample with the needle. 
I will write about Thumperina a bit later. There was a thread back in November regarding her but I understand it may not be easy to find.


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## Popsicles (Jun 4, 2018)

I would give for a week and see whether symptoms improve at all, sometimes it can take 10 days or more to fully clear an infection. Here in the UK (I can’t speak for US) we would do urinalysis in the practice itself (“in-House”) because sediment analysis etc is pretty simple and most practices have a centrifuge. Only culture (growing the bacteria to see what is present) would need to be sent off. Yes cystocentesis (collecting urine directly from the bladder with a needle) is the best way of sampling urine if you want to grow the bacteria to see what is causing an infection, which we would definitely want to do if the baytril doesn’t work, so we can choose a suitable antibiotic for the type of bacteria. Does he have other UTI symptoms? Struggling to urinate, frequent small puddles, cloudy urine?
No problem I can try and find it  sorry I’m rubbish because I’m always on my phone so struggle with longer threads and sometimes miss messages so sorry if you’ve answered any of this before.


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## Popsicles (Jun 4, 2018)

So I think I found the post and I replied there


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## Thumperina (Jun 4, 2018)

I don't know if he struggles to urinate. puddles that he makes are rather small but I am not sure how frequently he goes. Their urine has always been sort of cloudy-whitish, they don't drink any water. I thought this color-transparency is normal.


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## Popsicles (Jun 4, 2018)

It can be normal if that’s what it always looks like, so I wouldn’t worry if that isn’t new  each rabbit is different. It’s always pretty turbid, but if it was more cloudy or white than usual it could indicate an infection. Just trying to think of explanations for him being unwell that might not be urinary tract related.


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## Thumperina (Jun 4, 2018)

I have some news. I had a chance to weigh Thumperina today when I went to pick up Revolution, and her weight was 7.8 lbs which isn't much less than she used to be. Visually, and by impression that she is rather lightweight when picked up, I though she would be about 6lbs (compared to 8 in the past).


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## Popsicles (Jun 4, 2018)

That’s a good sign then?


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## Thumperina (Jun 5, 2018)

I am not sure what to do. It's time to describe my veterinarians as I desperately need an advice.
There are 2 vets I am dealing with. One is "All Creatures animal hospital" owner who is probably about 60 yo male. I will call the second one "The Lady Vet" for simplification.
The Lady Vet is self-proclaimed rabbit specialist, but I don't think she is. Her bio says that lack of info about her own guinea pig's and a rabbit's health encouraged her to become a vet. However, over the course of several years she did several things that really discouraged me to deal with her.
1. When Thumperina had urine scald, the lady vet said it was because the rabbit was "too furry" and there was no problems. I had to take her to another vet (paid again!) , they found an infection.
2. Sold me kitten dose of Revolution, when I researched and came back to exchange it for a more adequate dose, she didn't wish to talk to me and sent the receptionist to tell me that she was a certified vet there and "knows better".
3. Last November she took Thumperina's XRay and said she had spread out cancer, 2 days to live and nothing could be done. Sent us home with pain med only. Again, I had to go get another opinion, I had digital copy of XRay but another vet said he needed his own XRray after which he said "Who knows what it is"
4. A week ago I brought Paul with diarrhea. For some reasons, the only thing the Lady vet suggested was an Xray again (is it the most important diagnostics with diarrhea???), I refused due to lack of funds, then she prescribed Baytril and metacam. Diarrhea is an emergency... nobody ever even called to see if he survived.

The only thing I like about her office - she has affordable and more bunny friendly meds.

Another guy vet in All Creatures. I don't think he is a rabbit specialist either but he at least trying hard to do it right and he is always offering solutions ("nothing can be done" isn't his credo). He isn't lazy to call the Vet medicine department in our state university if he needs info (he did when he wasn't sure how to treat my sick bird). "Rabbit" is listed third in "animals seen" after dogs and cats. He has more possibilities in his office than the Lady Vet - they do blood work, some labs - something that Lady Vet has never offered me. No ultra sound though. They saved Thumperina when she had fly strike. they always call to check on your pet. Their drawback - they are expensive. He isn't trying to keep his clinic affordable like his Brother does in a suburb, he is trying to keep it elite. Also, I have a feeling that he doen't know what meds are optimal for bunnies. However, this office authorized online purchases for me couple of times, which I appreciate.

Now Paul's situation (since this, all info is recent for the last month or a little longer). It was probably beginning of May when he got worse the first time, and I took him to All Creatures guy vet. Due to not having unlimited wallet, we only did the exam, blood work (which was OK) and he prescribed a bunch of stuff for motility, pain control, etc. We decided that we could do an Xray later. Since this, Paul has been doing better or worse, on and off... So I am thinking that his main problem isn't found and not addressed yet. The guy vet didn't find any problems with his teeth from a simple visual exam. however there is a strange thing when I feel flaps of skin by his cheeks. He has a large dewlap and if I feel where his cheeks are, there is some kind of mass (rather large!) by one cheek but nothing at another cheek. The guy vet said he could feel it too, but he was unsure what it was (maybe some asymmetric fat distribution, maybe increased lymph node, he said).
Then, a weekend of Memorial day, Paul got worse and we could barely wait for offices to open on Tuesday. Tuesday morning is when he had diarrhea, but the guy Vet in All creatures called in sick. So I HAD TO take him to the lady Vet. We did no Xray because I am already afraid that her Xray doesn't offer any solutions anyway and has to be retaken by another vets. She said that Paul had overgrown teeth...
I regret about not starting him on Baytril that she gave a week ago. Today he was so passively lying on the ground on his own urine that I got real scared and today we finally started Baytril. However, I am scared... If we go to All Creatures to do an XRAY, they already said they would charge the cost of an Xray AND exam (again). I just paid a bunch of money to online pharmacy for 100ml of Metacam.
I am afraid he might have an abscess in his mouth (hence that strange mass on one side when you feel his cheeks). He is eating on his own, not very well, but still. He hasn't got any treats for a long time. I just gave him a small piece of carrot to see if he eats. He ate it.

Any thoughts, ideas??? please.


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## Popsicles (Jun 5, 2018)

From what you have described, the male vet definitely sounds like the better option, and although more expensive you will probably find you spend less in total if you had proper diagnostics and treatment the first time round instead of seeing the cheaper vet over and over and also having to repeat the same diagnostics. Also the only way a vet can be called a specialist is if they have done extra diplomas for example in rabbit medicine. Having a special interest in something does not make you a specialist, and I wouldn’t trust anyone who says so - I have a special interest in small furries, I certainly would not call myself a specialist. 
As for Paul, I’m glad You started on the baytril and hopefully that will help if it is a UTI which we did possibly expect. I would also be interested to get some proper diagnostics on this lump on the jaw - imaging by X-ray (proper dental views) or ultrasound, for sure, and if it is a soft lump it could be useful to take a fine needle aspirate (like a biopsy) to collect some cells/fluid to see if it is an abscess/lymph node/salivary gland.. etc etc. 
I know money is an issue at the moment, but I don’t think there’s much way of getting around that and also getting proper medical care.


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## Thumperina (Jun 5, 2018)

thanks Popsicles. I am trying to recall if the guy vet took a sample from this lump during our previous visit. He did biopsy from Paul's 3rd eye lid (that's another problem but it seems to be OK so I am not mentioning it) and mentioned about taking a sample from the lump too, but I will need to call them to specify if he did and what the result was


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## Thumperina (Jun 6, 2018)

I finally searched for meloxicam dosage. Found 0.3-0.6 mg/kg. However, I see that both my rabbits are prescribed 0.8 - .85 mg/kg. I know it says up to 1.5 mg/kg if needed but still... is 0.8 mg/kg OK dosage ?


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## JBun (Jun 6, 2018)

Is that once or twice a day that you are giving the 0.8mg?


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## Popsicles (Jun 6, 2018)

I can’t see that 0.8mg would be an issue. Because meloxicam is metabolised quite quickly, I would be tempted to split that dose in half and give it twice daily, but please check that with your vet. He might even intend for you to give the 0.8 twice daily?


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## Thumperina (Jun 6, 2018)

the daily amount they receive is 0.8 mg per kg, I split this into two intakes. so every 12 hours they receive 0.4mg/kg


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## Popsicles (Jun 6, 2018)

That sounds good to me


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## Thumperina (Jun 7, 2018)

unfortunately I don't see much improvement since the day I give baytril (started on Tuesday).
yesterday was a very hot day, they spent a day inside the house, then some outdoor time in the evening then a night in garage with AC unit that is making it cool. I didn't see him eating much. very few poops that are all dry and tiny but what is more concerning i don't see him producing any pee at all. I am out of critical care too. Out of sub Q fluids, and out of money. (I got critical care, and saw him eating some veggies but still no urine traces)
It was raining this morning, sort of cooled down a little bit. I wonder if my rabbit has kidney failure (since I see no urine) ... I am also suspecting maybe a stone. Can't do XRay at this time (they want to charge for Xray and exam at least). NO money at all.
Not sure about continuing AB...
JBun, I would really appreciate your opinion please (I understand that you probably think - borrow the money, take him to the vet. There are no sources for me to do it )


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## Popsicles (Jun 7, 2018)

Not much more I can say as more diagnostics need to be done if you want to help your bun. Good luck and keep us updated.


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## Thumperina (Jun 7, 2018)

thank you Popsicles. I saw him pee. Not much, but probably his usual amount. You asked if he struggles to urinate. Well, he is raising his tail and sort of lifting his butt but this is the same that my another rabbit does. Does it count as struggling? However, the question about giving or not Baytril any longer remains.


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## Popsicles (Jun 7, 2018)

It would more be if he is making that stance for a long time a, nd urine not coming out, or only a little bit. Keep on the baytril, it's only been a couple of days and can take several to work if there is a severe infection. You said you saw no urine? If there was kidney failure there would be excess urine as it means the kidneys can no longer concentrate it properly anymore - he would also be drinking more. So a lack of urine indicates a blockage or infection.


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## JBun (Jun 8, 2018)

I agree with Popsicles. I would keep up with the baytril and meloxicam, and keep trying to keep him hydrated and food in him. If you haven't seen any improvement after 7-10 days on the baytril or his condition worsens, then you've got a difficult decision to make. If additional diagnostics aren't going to be possible, the kindest thing may be to let him go rather than having him suffer. 

You also need to consider that if you were to have additional tests done, they still may not determine what is going on. Or if the cause of all this is discovered, it may not be something that is treatable, or could be extremely expensive to treat. So these are all considerations to take into account.


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## Thumperina (Jun 8, 2018)

thank you. I think that combination of not getting critical care for 3 days + heat that we had for a few days caused this decline (they are not kept in the heat, but its still stressful to be inside or stay in garage while small AC unit is cooling it down). He is doing better after being fed critical care and after the weather cooled down (for 1 day only). I think he has some stones... but I may be wrong of course. Now he seems to be doing better but Thumperina is acting strange and shows some decline. Here we go again.. I think that simply being in a normal moderate climate would help a lot. 
I am ashamed to admit it, but yesterday I was searching up different rabbit rescues and sanctuaries. not that I have guts to do it, but since my own life is absolutely stolen from me, it was nice to imagine that I can get my life back to myself again.


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## Thumperina (Jun 8, 2018)

JBun said:


> You also need to consider that if you were to have additional tests done, they still may not determine what is going on. Or if the cause of all this is discovered, it may not be something that is treatable, or could be extremely expensive to treat. So these are all considerations to take into account.


that's the scariest part.
For now, I decided to try to increase their water intake. Critical care, maybe even syringe feed some water in them. I would hate to do sub q fluids again (too much hassle, from even ordering it) , I also switching treats. I just realized that even a piece of carrot (nothing excessive) is better than Oxbow simple rewards (its fresh food and has water in it). I will try to find dry cranberries with no or little sugar.


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## Thumperina (Jun 8, 2018)

besides changes in climate, I abruptly limited their treats which is also probably causing them stress


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## Thumperina (Jun 11, 2018)

this is day #7 for Paul on baytril. I think that he is doing somewhat better. Still overweight and nutrition habits are far from being right, and the heat doesnt make them feel better, but I still think that he has improved recently.
How long should I continue with Baytril? I really don't want to give it longer than needed. Would 7 days be enough? (remember, its not even confirmed he needed AB)
Among other problems that may be causing him not to feel well: I am really suspecting his urinary tract to have some problems due to limited water intake and diet that is mostly veggies. Like stones, etc. Obesity, too. Not enough fiber.


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## Popsicles (Jun 11, 2018)

It won’t hurt for him to be on them a bit longer, say 10-14 days; it’s better to be on them too long than not long enough. 
If you are suspecting stones or other urinary problems you need to pay for a vet - that is the only way of diagnosis and treatment. A limited fibre diet is unlikely to cause stones though (they can however develop as a result of excess spinach and other high calcium veggies). 
I’m sorry to tell you that it is difficult to come up with any diagnosis without seeing him, and without proper testing by a vet.


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## Thumperina (Jun 30, 2018)

update on Paul. He is doing allright health wise, eating and pooping OK. But he just lost his companion bun and I don't know how it will affect him in a long run. He is not much of a human interacting bunny.
I am definitely not getting any more rabbits. Sorry for saying this and I hope people will understand. I will be seeing if I can find him a new home that has bunnies (for HIS benefits). But since he is not young and he is overweight, I am not sure if we can easily find him a home. I might consider a rescue/sanctuary. Willing to transport him to a better climate. If somebody knows a good rescue where buns are allowed outdoor playtime time, let me know. In US or even Canada.
I am of course not rushing anything and I will see how he does on his own. We should take our time.


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## Thumperina (Jul 2, 2018)

Now, when my hands and arms are covered with blisters, and who know what it is (scabies? it matches the description. or maybe auto-immune rash from all the stress?), Paul decided he doesn't need to eat. Maybe it finally struck him that Thumperina isn't coming back. Maybe he thought at first that she is gone to the vet appointment like it happened in the past. He did have time to spend with her body but who knows. I hate my life. Now I don't know how to get around all these pets with my rash. I am applying neem oil and who knows how toxic it can be. The problem is that I am the only caregiver around here.


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## JBun (Jul 3, 2018)

It sounds like you might have hives, which would be from an allergy. It could be the oil you are applying or possibly something in relation to the rabbits, or maybe a plant in the yard. 

I hope Paul starts eating. Some rabbits can get depressed from losing their partner. Sometimes giving them extra attention and pets helps, but if he's a hands off rabbit that might just stress him.


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## Popsicles (Jul 3, 2018)

I also agree it sounds more like an allergic reaction. You could try taking some antihistamines to see if that helps? 
All my love to Paul


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## Thumperina (Jul 3, 2018)

thank you JBun and Popsicles 
I started using oil after it already looked rather bad (like scabies). I bought oil today. However, I agree that oil doesn't seem to make it any better. what could it possibly be in relation to rabbits if nothing changed? plant? maybe. but we have the same plants here - nothing new. Oh, I buried Thumperina in a huge nature park (don't tell me it's illegal...). Maybe there were some plants there that I came in contact with? 
The very first time I developed rash in April and was pretty sure that it was shingles. I was afraid that my child would catch chicken pox but she never did (this can be an indication that my rash wasn't of contagious manner but not necessarily) Now I keep asking her if she is itching (scabies are very contagious) she says she isn't


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## Thumperina (Jul 3, 2018)

it's not that Paul is very off hands rabbit. When I was feeding him critical care and such, he didn't mind at all. I think he likes attention. I just don't know how to approach him with this rash on my hands. right now his residence is in the basement. Birds are upstairs. Of course, I spend much more time upstairs. I don't think there is an option to keep them all on the same level. I am about to send my birds to boarding until I clear all major problems. too much stress!


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## Thumperina (Jul 5, 2018)

unfortunately Paul isn't doing well. He doesn't eat much on his own - and he always loved all his veggies, at night he makes some sounds... probably crying. It doesn't look like he is trying to find his food even though he is hungry. Sometimes I have to put the food under his nose and he starts eating hungrily, then stops. He is again having urine scald...not sure if it's a medical problem or he just doesn't care where he pees. He doesn't use litter box anymore, we have lots of wet spots on the carpet (and this property is a rental  But! he is always hungry for his treats (which is at least tells that he is probably not very sick - just heartbroken)
He has had a problem with one eye and it's been this way for some time but now the fur under affected eye is soaking wet all the time. The vet thinks its prolapsing (something) gland that presses on tear gland and producing tearing. He thinks it's more a cosmetic than health problem. Another vet said it's a third eye lid. However, it only bulges out when he tries to bend over one shoulder or when he is lying down a certain way. Of course, his obesity contributes a lot. I try to clean the fur but it's all tough and can't be easily cleaned. I post a picture and would like to hear your opinion. His second eye looks normal.


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## Popsicles (Jul 5, 2018)

Yeah looks like a third eyelid to me, both vets are right, it’s the gland of the third eyelid (nictitating membrane) that can prolapse. It is largely cosmetic unless it gets really red and sore or he can’t close his eye properly anymore. 
I’m sorry to hear he isn’t feeling well  I wonder whether it is pain that is stopping him eating (apart from yummy treats!) potentially from some sort of UTI (urine scald) or maybe an issue jumping into the litter tray or something (arthritis?).
Bless you you have been through so much!


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## Thumperina (Jul 5, 2018)

thank you Popsicles. 
Some litter is in a form of a cardboard box with hay where you don't need to jump in at all. Just enter. He was using them in garage while Thumperina was alive


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## Popsicles (Jul 5, 2018)

Maybe it is some sort of UTI or something then? Bless him


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## Thumperina (Jul 5, 2018)

He was on Baytril not very long ago as you may remember. Explain to me please how UTI makes a bunny pee under himself? He is overweight and situation when he lost a companion, that prompts me to give him this special attention (and treats!) doesn't help to manage his weight at all !


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## Thumperina (Jul 5, 2018)

I have a very special request. Here are two places that I like... rabbit rescues and sanctuaries. Please don't be judgemental. Even if you very disagree that it would be a good solution, I am asking people to watch this short videos and tell me what you think regarding both. I am sitting heavily covered in stress related skin rash (can't work, can't cool down in a pool), third onset since April. My family doesn't have any medical insurance - we can't afford it. My rabbit is crying at night. He had bunnies around him all his life, now I am unable to give him what he needs, and I myself need to unwind from stress.
What you think about both of them?

1. Washington state, close to Canada border. Weather is mild, temps are very bunny friendly year around, but it rains a lot (no sun) Oct thru April (?) Very clean air, organic gardening is very popular. I like that they seem to have some green grass.


2. South Carolina. Summers are on the hot side, but winters are probably mild. This one looks very organized. they even have a medical care facility. She says they try to mimic natural environment (which is what I was trying to do). and she says that they are not solitary animals. 
https://www.rabbitsanctuaryinc.org/


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## Popsicles (Jul 5, 2018)

I don’t judge you at all, you have had a really hard time lately and I really feel for you! I respect the love and fantastic care you have given your bunnies! And it might be the right choice to give him a new home if he is happier with another rabbit. I feel like the first one looks like it would really suit him if he likes being outside? The second one does look fab, but being indoors would he be sad? 
Do these rescues rehome bunnies, or is it a forever home for them? I suppose that’s another consideration? (Sorry if they say that in the video, I could only watch without sound as I’m at work)


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## Thumperina (Jul 5, 2018)

As I understood, the first one is trying to rehome. The second does rehome those that can be rehomed and keeps for life others.


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## Popsicles (Jul 5, 2018)

would you like him to be rehomed?


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## Thumperina (Jul 5, 2018)

If its to a good home where he has bunny friends then why not?


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## Thumperina (Jul 5, 2018)

The second one isnt exactly indoors only. Indoor is a medical facility building. Regular rabitry is outdoors under the cover where they have pens (2 buns per pen)


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## JBun (Jul 5, 2018)

Rabbits don't cry. They can grieve the loss of a companion, but that would be more lack of activity and appetite. If he is making sounds that seem like he is crying, then it's going to be some sort of health condition causing the vocalization you are hearing. It could be a respiratory problem or restricted air passages, it could be pain causing him to make sounds, or he could have a heart condition or a mass. Then with him having a protruding third eyelid, that can also be an indication of a heart condition or a mass in the chest(thymoma). I suspect he has something more serious than a uti or stress causing all of these symptoms you are seeing, which could account for the urinating and sitting in the puddle, the decreased appetite, the bulging third eyelid, and the noisy breathing and increased respiratory effort. All of those symptoms would make me suspect a heart problem or thymoma, unless chest xrays were done that ruled out these possibilities. It's a possibility I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, and with the additional symptoms presenting, it seems even more possible now.

For a rabbit with serious preexisting medical issues, it is going to be difficult to rehome him. You won't be able to travel any distance without the stress of the journey posing significant risk. So you would have to find someone local willing to take him on and his potential medical issues, but then you have to consider the stress it puts on him relocating to an unfamiliar place. 

To figure out what's going on with him is likely going to involve a lot of expensive tests. And even if the vet can determine a cause, it may not be treatable. Then there is considering if the costs of further testing is even doable for you. Honestly, it sounds to me like he is not doing well and is likely suffering from significant pain of some sort. As hard as it is, it might be time to consider what is best for him at this point and his quality of life. He's lost his companion and he's unwell with a significant undiagnosed illness. Sometimes even if treatment is possible, it's not always the best option if it just prolongs the suffering of the animal. Quality of life is a very important consideration. Think of what his quality of life is now and what it will be as time progresses. Is he happy, does he still enjoy doing things, is his pain managed/managable so he can be comfortable for his remaining time? These are all important things to evaluate to determine what the next step should be for you and your bun.


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## Thumperina (Jul 5, 2018)

thank you JBun I appreciate your opinion. 
You know, he was doing fine while she was around (except for the episode when I started this discussion) and even a day of two after she died. While she was here, he wasn't even bothered that she was in pain, all he needed to know that his companion was here. He did provide comfort by licking her though. 
It was a point during this thread when I mentioned him making sounds and it was clearly related to me having too many manipulation with him. I stopped manipulations - he stopped making sounds. I disagree that rabbits do not vocalize (do not cry)
He is rather overweight and only one this fact doesn't make him feel great. of course, being overweight is causing all sorts of other problems. I hope that if he has other rabbits around that give him good examples, he would change his habits to healthier. 
by the way, when she was already gone but he still hasn't fallen into depression, once at night I heard a sound that sounded differently. I listened and realized that he was eating hay! (doesn't happen much anymore)
I don't know why you underestimate influence of loosing a mate on a well being. 
By the way, he is quiet during the day. No sounds.


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## Thumperina (Jul 5, 2018)

I will take him to a different vet for a checkup. \
Also, if we have to travel, we will fly. I think he would be able to handle a 2-3 hrs flight. by the way, he proved to be more adaptive to changes than Thumperina.
But what I am trying to say - It can't continue this way. Some action needs to be taken ( level of my own depression and despair speaks out). If he is to die then let it be (or should it be my life instead?). Let it happen when he is surrounded by other bunnies. He would at least have a chance. Here he has no chances at all. this is not a life. for all of us


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## Thumperina (Jul 5, 2018)

JBun said:


> Is he happy, does he still enjoy doing things, is his pain managed/managable so he can be comfortable for his remaining time?


yes he seemed to be enjoying himself while she was here.


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## Thumperina (Jul 5, 2018)

he has a lot of unhealthy habits - not eating hay. eating too much veggies, drinking no water. No wonder he doesn't feel very well. IMO


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## Thumperina (Jul 5, 2018)

JBun, please don't take it as I am trying to argue. Of course, you may be very right that he has a more serious issue, I just hope this is not a case


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## Thumperina (Jul 5, 2018)

JBun said:


> Think of what his quality of life is now and what it will be as time progresses.


miserable right now. but how may I know what it will be like as time progresses? I hope it will improve if he is surrounded by other rabbit(s) that may teach him some healthy habits and if a new human is strict about his new (healthier) lifestyle.


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## doodlebugger (Jul 6, 2018)

There is a group in Wichita, KS, called Bunny TNT - have you tried them yet? They might be able to help. I'm so sorry you are going through this. We had a rabbit that had serious health conditions, and we were not going to be able to afford to care for her, so we talked to several rabbit rescues in the area and found out that they were full to capacity and not taking any surrenders. Then our vet agreed to work with us and set up a billing plan to cover the surgery. Turns out her condition wasn't what they thought and after surgery, she has been a different bunny for the better. Don't feel bad about the possibility of giving up a rabbit, if you are doing the best you can for him and for you and your family, then that is the best for everyone in your family. Flying could be worse than driving for a rabbit, especially if they have a health issue, and especially if they make you put him in the cargo. Plus, I think it would be expensive to fly - if you don't have money for other things like health care, then I don't see this as a good solution. The best solution would be to find someone within two hours drive, and put the rabbit in a well air conditioned vehicle and take him there. Here's another potential list of people who might be able to help: http://rabbit.rescueshelter.com/Kansas
Also, if you are close to Missouri, you might reach out to the Missouri House Rabbit Society - they may have a volunteer willing to come to pick up the rabbit. There is also the Rabbit Underground or something like that that provides transportation through volunteers. 
Whatever you decide, whether it's surrendering him or taking him to the vet, I believe time is of the most importance here because rabbits who have a condition or illness need to have immediate care.


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## Thumperina (Jul 6, 2018)

yes I contacted Bunny TNT group. They don't accept anybody at the time, She said they are trying to clear the house (her house) from every rabbit they have. Besides, they are specialized in "therapy bunnies" which means they take the bunnies to places like nursing homes for residents to pet......... I can only imagine how much stress it would be for my rabbit... he needs a different environment IMO
No, air cargo is out of the question of course. 
Taking him to the vet on Monday to check his internal problems. I have a new credit card, not sure how I am going to pay it back.


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## Popsicles (Jul 6, 2018)

It’s a difficult situation for sure  I hope the vet can help shed some light x


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## Thumperina (Jul 7, 2018)

So here is a timeline. While she was alive and 1-2 days after she died, Paul was eating fine and making lots of poop. I had Lactated Ringers sub-q solution left after Thumperina so I finished it on Paul during next 4 days. At the same time, I noticed that his appetite for veggies decreased to almost zero which was unusual because he always liked veggies. The only thing he was still eating was parsley. I think I was supplementing him with some critical care (not much) because he doesn't seem to be eating hay and I don't see him eating much pellets.
when I stopped giving him fluids (I ran out) , I think he started eating veggies a bit better (did he feel he is not getting fluids anymore so he needed to get water from the veggies?) and he started eating veggies with much better appetite. However, this morning I realized that he is not producing any round regular poop but again producing lots of unformed cetotropes. Since he already had it in the past and I know it's not true diarrhea , I am not panicking much.. Giving him runny critical care, but I have no sub-q fluids. Would he be somewhat dehydrated if he isn't getting sub-q fluids, drinks no water , poops large unformed stool, and eating veggies so-so (as I understand with this stool I shouldn't give him much veggies)... ?
any suggestions?


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## Thumperina (Jul 7, 2018)

JBun,
for what exact tests should I ask the vet to check his heart and regarding thymoma? do you mean enlarged heart condition? just chest X Ray? I know she has ultrasound there. I would love to check at the same time on the lower organs for possible stones, prostate cancer and so on. Would an ultrasound be OK for all of these, including heart and masses in the chest ? or does it have to be X ray?


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## Thumperina (Jul 7, 2018)

doodlebugger said:


> Also, if you are close to Missouri, you might reach out to the Missouri House Rabbit Society - they may have a volunteer willing to come to pick up the rabbit. There is also the Rabbit Underground or something like that that provides transportation through volunteers.


I just checked their website. You know, ALL rescues that I checked so far, say DIRECTLY that they don't accept surrender pets. At all. They tell you beforehand.


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## Thumperina (Jul 8, 2018)

he still has a lot of runny stool (And I am out of sub Q fuilds to do underskin injections)
It was normal dark color at first but now it's getting more of a color of Critical care. The smell isn't awful bad but I can't say it's very pleasant. I see him eating this runny stool sometimes.... not sure why he does it... but I don't think it's a great idea that he does. 
I feed critical care, I also got electrolyte solution for infants (Kroger brand) but didn't give any yet. Being scared and desperate, I decided to give him (and gave) some "Baytril" that is left after Thumperina (shouldn't be too old) but it's the same one for which I was in doubt if they even sold me real Baytril (it;s very sick syrup that smells like candy)
Also, if you remember he has some discharge from his affected eye where protruding third eyelid is. I thought it was supposed to be tears. I wipe fur under the eye with clean wet cloth and my cloth is getting sort of sticky from the discharge. Also, the wetness made his fur under the eye a little bit of a greenish tint if I am not colorblind. 
Should I continue with "Baytril" tomorrow? there is not much of it left, maybe 1-2 his doses.


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## Popsicles (Jul 8, 2018)

I think you really need to get to a vet ASAP, it all doesn’t sound great to be honest. I personally wouldn’t want to be treating this at home without doing some tests.


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## Thumperina (Jul 8, 2018)

We dont have any access to the vet on Sundays
I am trying to find bene-bac. If i dont find it in Stores tomorrow morning , anything i can use instead?


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## Popsicles (Jul 8, 2018)

We have used proC probiotic before, don’t know if you have that where you are? 
Will you be able to get to the vet Monday then?


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## Thumperina (Jul 8, 2018)

On Monday - yes


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## Popsicles (Jul 8, 2018)

Okay that’s good, feel sorry for your poor little bun, and you


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## Thumperina (Jul 8, 2018)

thanks. if somebody can recommend Bene-bac replacement in US , please do 

which V8 juice for fuilds? which do you recommend? it all so sugary even though there is no added sugar


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## Thumperina (Jul 8, 2018)

also, if it is clostridial, is it dangerous for humans and my pet birds?


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## Thumperina (Jul 8, 2018)

can i give him some veggies or better not? 
he pooped a lot while I went to sleep for a 2-3 hours. . it's a poop that you can at least pick up... 
No hard round poop


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## Thumperina (Jul 8, 2018)

update. In the morning I found a few small, not very round, hard droppings which made me happy, I thought he was probably improving. He still poops a lot of unformed large stool but at least it can be picked up as a piece (so it's not liquid-liquid). Although Paul obviously isn't in his best shape, he doesn't seem lethargic or super weak (Still tries to escape from me)
I try to give him infant electrolytes solution but not very successfully.
I bought bene-fac powder in the petstore. Mixed it with critical care and fed.
Do I need to ask for metronidazole prescription tomorrow? his runny unformed stool is of brown color which can indicate clostridial infection... what you think? @JBun


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## Thumperina (Jul 8, 2018)

the basement where he is located is getting super dirty. He is free range in a large room there (that's the only place to keep him in). I pick up his poop but obviously germs stay there on the carpet. When / If he is out of there... I will try to steam-clean everything but who knows when it's going to be. I walk barefoot on that carpet. Then I walk upstairs where my birds are. They have a lot of out of cage time and they sometimes land on the carpet (where I also walk with the same feet)
Worried about lots of germs in the house!!!


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## Thumperina (Jul 8, 2018)

Should i give bene-bac according to instruction which is on day 1 3, 5, 7, or more often and how often?


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## Thumperina (Jul 9, 2018)

Update on Paul. He had rather bad diarrhea over the weekend, and honestly, I wasn't sure if he would make it alive by Monday. Don't get me wrong, HE didn't look that bad but his diarrhea did. However, by Monday morning, instead of a dead rabbit I saw a rabbit that looked hungry. He ate some veggies (during this period, he has strong preference for parsley and sometimes kale). I thought it was too early to be thinking to put him down (yes I was considering this!) so I called the new vet I was going to try to see if they could see us earlier than 2pm.
The clinic located in upscale suburb and you can feel it every second. Seems like from the moment you walk in, they look at your jewelry, your outfit and so on (just exaggerating, folks)
The vet is the one I talked to thru FB just recently. I could see that she didn't like my accent, I am rather familiar with all rabbit health terminology, the way it looks, but not the way its pronounced.. she probably didn't like that I have been reading a lot about the matter and trying to talk like an expert. Let me tell you, we didn't do either Xray nor ultrasound. For unknown reason, Xray there is very expensive - $240 (what a nonsense), and for ultrasound ($127) she said it might happen that they don't see well his chest area. plus they would have to shave him, and he is rather exhausted right now... I said lets concentrate on his diarrhea... if he is to die, it won't matter what in his chest is. I decided we should stabilize his stool and then see about the rest.
She didn't think he needed AB. She prescribed opioid pain sub-q shots (will tell you later the name - the one you need to keep in the dark) , tablets for motility that need to be crushed and added to his critical care, and sub-q electrolytes. Actually she didn't do much of exam... didn't even take his temperature, didn't check his teeth or his ears... just told the tech - quickly put him back in the carrier and prepare room for the next patient. While they were preparing his meds, I asked the tech if the doc looked at his teeth, the tech asked if there was a concern, I said its ALWAYS a good idea with the rabbit so they took him back in to check the teeth... she said teeth looked fine.
At home, I think he starts having his regular stool back...
by the way, I asked why their xray so freaking expensive (usually it's another way around - ultrasound is more expensive,,) they said because its digital and requires special people with training to look at it. I think everybody now has digital xray, right? Anyway. I wonder if there are any real reasons why I should do Xray at this place, is it really this good? I called another place, they charge $90 + 40 for exam... its digital too.
Need your opinion regarding Bene-bac. what scheme should I do?
Also, he has some wax build -up in his ears, he is shaking his head and trying to reach but can't . What can I use to clean it?


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## Thumperina (Jul 9, 2018)

I agree that we need to do chest xray. I will try to do it soon


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## Thumperina (Jul 9, 2018)

His energy and appetite are stil decreased. He accepts a little bit of a critical care but starts refusing after probably 20ml. 
Do you think i should have insisted on AB and detoxifying med? I can try to convince her tomorrow. What she said doesn't sound right (that AB r not needed, basically she didnt prescribed any meds from diarrhea . Just a pain med and motility drug. Buprenex and metoclopramide HCl)


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## Thumperina (Jul 9, 2018)

I m having upset stomach too. Its very rare for me. I wonder if i caught a bug from him. Any ideas?


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## Thumperina (Jul 10, 2018)

Anyone have experience using Buprenex? how do bunnies usually tolerate it? Does it make them acting like in trans, not wanting anything (but relaxed) ? 
Paul has gotten 2 sub q shots of it yesterday, he was lying down all day long, I don't think he ate anything at all (except my critical care but with no appetite) 
I can't figure out if these shots are good for him or bad... today, when 12 hrs since the last shot passed, he is more active... so I am wondering if Buprenex makes him sleepy and he is better off without it. 
I decided to go with metacam for today and see how he behaves. 
The sad thing is that he is losing fur under his eye, where he has discharge from affected eye... now there is some naked skin there  
On the bright side, after pooping a lot of unformed poop all weekend long, he is finally having a decent amount of a regular stool...


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## Thumperina (Jul 10, 2018)

today he went outside in the morning, and I can tell that it was a good experience to feel like something still belongs to him from his happier past. Poor guy has everything that used to make him happy, taken away. No more enjoying sunshine in a good weather, no more his rabbit friends around, and no more treats (well, I give him some but not often) 
I wish at least the weather wasn't so awful


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## Thumperina (Jul 10, 2018)

Paul this morning, under the deck


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## Thumperina (Jul 10, 2018)

timeline with Buprenex.
Given a shot at the clinic yesterday morning, came home and ate a piece of kale. Then didn't want to eat a whole day and a whole night, and was refusing critical care. Another shot was given at home in the evening.
today didn't get a new shot. 12 hrs after the evening shot acts more active and ate critical care with no problems. Can't figure out if its good or bad for him


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## Thumperina (Jul 10, 2018)

once again, 
under buprenex: completely stretched out, breathing is shallow, almost not detectable by eye, but not eating on his own
without buprenex (now) - sitting like bunnies should sit, breathing is visible (more respiratory effort), still not eating so far... (but ate critical care)


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## Thumperina (Jul 10, 2018)

Popsicles, where are you ! I am missing your posts


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## Thumperina (Jul 10, 2018)

yesterday I used my new CareCredit card at the new vet. But i didn't figure out that it has to be over $200 transaction for it to have no interest promotion period. Instead, I've got 27% APR to pay. 
every transaction, if its under 200, has to be paid with this insane APR. if I do Xray and use this card again, it will be under 200 again and I am already in the hole. I don't have any other forms of payments at this time


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## Popsicles (Jul 10, 2018)

Hi I’m sorry I’ve been on a placement and so busy! 
So buprenorphine can have GI side effects, such as stasis, and from what I understand it isn’t great for long term use. If it is making him sleepy I’d suggest maybe the dose is too high? It can have a mild sedative effect. Is it possible to talk to your vet to discuss lowering the dose? 
Oh no that is so silly with the APR scam, I dont know what to suggest but that really sucks  I wish I could help!


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## Thumperina (Jul 10, 2018)

thank you my friend.
I have a feeling that exposed skin under his eye where tearing occurs could have become infected. and the vet yesterday didn't have a clue to even look at it! Are there any over the counter external cremes I can apply there (without getting close to the eye of course) ? AB+ pain relief @JBun


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## Popsicles (Jul 10, 2018)

Could you send a photo? You could consider using a barrier cream to protect the skin from further damage such as sudocrem or savlon, if you have those?


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## Thumperina (Jul 10, 2018)

Popsicles said:


> Hi I’m sorry I’ve been on a placement and so busy!
> So buprenorphine can have GI side effects, such as stasis, and from what I understand it isn’t great for long term use. If it is making him sleepy I’d suggest maybe the dose is too high? It can have a mild sedative effect. Is it possible to talk to your vet to discuss lowering the dose?
> Oh no that is so silly with the APR scam, I dont know what to suggest but that really sucks  I wish I could help!


I looked up dose for this drug buprenorphine, it should be 0.01 - 0.05 mg/kg. but it doesn't say if its daily dose or every 12 hrs.
I calculated and it seems like he is receiving .25mg every 12 hrs, which is at high border 0.05 mg/kg since he is 5.13kg of weight and concentration is 0.5 mg/ml and I have pre filled syringes 0.5 ml each to give every 12 hrs
now I need to figure out of recommended dose is daily or every 12 hrs


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## Thumperina (Jul 10, 2018)

Also the condition of his butt is bad, some diarrhea and urine too. I mentioned I had upset stomach, just slightly, and even then it felt so uncomfortable, sorry for details, I can only imagine how he must be feeling having a butt this dirty. I wash it from time to time, wipe with a towel but I don't blow dry. I release him with still dump butt (indoors). Is it OK or should I blow dry?


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## Thumperina (Jul 10, 2018)

Popsicles said:


> Could you send a photo? You could consider using a barrier cream to protect the skin from further damage such as sudocrem or savlon, if you have those?


not sure if we have them in US. I will check. Photo maybe later


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## Thumperina (Jul 11, 2018)

Popsicles, I am reading that Buprenorphine is a better choice of pain control for GI stasis pain. So, it's supposed to help with GI stasis, not make it worse? 
*He has some wax build up deep in his ears. I tried to clean it but he didn't like it and shook his head like crazy. I have a feeling this wax is causing him problems, too. *


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## Popsicles (Jul 11, 2018)

Speak to your vet about dosage, as I’m sure she has a plan. Tell her your concerns, that’s what a vet is for.
You should be okay just towel drying his bottom, especially if blow drying would stress him out?
I have read differing sources about buprenorphine, it is great for pain management but because it makes them drowsy and affects their appetite it can cause stasis Just because they aren’t eating. 
You can try putting a drop of olive oil into the ear and massaging in from the outside, so that it goes deep. Do this for a few days and the wax can come out in a clump.


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## Thumperina (Jul 11, 2018)

thank you
I will talk to the vet. she is not my vet, just the vet I saw once and she said some strange things, that made me wonder how practical her knowledge is. 
may i ask what your sources say about dosage - is it a daily amount or every 12 hrs? sorry I am asking you for so many things 
I don't have olive oil, I have sunflower. Does it have to be olive?


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## Popsicles (Jul 11, 2018)

I have read the same as you, 0.01-0.05, every 8-12 hours, so the dosage you are using should be okay. But I’m not a qualified vet so take everything I say with a long of salt!
Erm I’ve never used sunflower oil but after a quick google search it says that is fine. Make sure you use like a pipette or eye dropper to ensure it is only 1-2 drops per ear.


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## Thumperina (Jul 11, 2018)

the vet said if I give less dose, I will have to give more often. She said this is how buprenex works.... I still give a little less. 0.4 ml instead of 0.5. Just in case


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## Thumperina (Jul 12, 2018)

_I've _got some news. 2 days ago I wrote a letter to "the guy vet" and explained all my concerns. He called me back and we talked for half an hour. Today I made an appointment with him for the Xray thinking I was going to use CareCredit card. when it's over 200, there is no interest if its paid on time (over several months period)
We just came back from "the guy vet". He did a whole body Xray and didn't find anything abnormal. They also did an Xray of his head (also nothing...but he said he can't see INSIDE the brain though). Lots of manipulations with Paul's eye. I spent 2 hours at the clinic. When we were ready to pay, they said "No charge today, on the house, he is just trying to help". I was so tearful and full of gratitude. Plus, they did't find anything bad so far. Of source, it can be something that is not seen on Xray. I will post images later.
In his opinion, Paul is just very obese. and having a very bad diet, he is having lots of gut discomfort. But a good thing, I see him eating hay from time to time. His stool looks WAY better and no poopy butt. he has urine scald though. however, there is no sign of bladder or kidney stones or anything. The other day I was carrying him from outside and maybe pressed on his bladder that made him urinate. he is on sub-q fuilds, and he made a huge puddle without any struggle and it looked pale yellow and no sludge.


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## Thumperina (Jul 12, 2018)

More good news. I dug deeper into CreditCare and seems like my previous charge from this Monday that was under 200 can be also No interest if paid quickly. they give you 20 days, I believe


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## Thumperina (Jul 12, 2018)

His xray. Comments are welcome


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## Thumperina (Jul 12, 2018)

I would like to tell you as well that before I took him in, I have been thinking that he didn't look like a very sick bun. Yes, he is having number of problems... but his main problem is probably that his whole world collapsed piece by piece since last Spring. From "free range in the yard, sitting under the bush", they went to "often picked up for multiple manipulations", then kept indoors, then Thumperina passed and he stayed alone


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## Thumperina (Jul 13, 2018)

right now our focus is on improving condition of his right eye. He also has area under his chin where fur is missing (its really in the fold of skin), the vet took a sample from this area and found an infection. I got AB ointment for his eye and medicated wet wipes for the area under the chin. The problem is that he is trying to lick under the chin as soon as I wipe. I hope the medicated stuff on wipes is at least safe to ingest...


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## Popsicles (Jul 13, 2018)

That’s so nice of the vet to do! I hope that has restored your faith in Vets that they do care and it’s not about the money! 
Good news that he didnt find anything wrong! I agree I can’t see anything glaringly obvious on the X-rays - his lungs aren’t as dark as I’d want them, but I wonder if that’s because of all the far obscuring the image. You can see from the image that he is severely overweight, which will definitely be causing problems. Do you have a diet plan? 
What is the vet doing for his eye? 
The skin fold infection will also be helped by losing some weight, what are the wipes. If you can, distract him with veg or something until the wipe dries to prevent him licking. 
I’m so glad to hear some good news from you anyway!


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## Thumperina (Jul 13, 2018)

yes it restored my faith, absolutely! thank you Popsicles! 

speaking of the lungs, what could it be if we think of possible pathology? 

another thing why the vet didn't think about tumors when he even saw him back this May. He said, with any growth, they usually lose some weight which isn't the case here.


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## Thumperina (Jul 13, 2018)

speaking of the diet plan , I guess to feed less veggies, little treats (can't leave him with no treats at all yet) and more hay? can't think of anything else...i don't serve any pellets at all. For the past week, he was flipping the bowl over anyway.


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## Thumperina (Jul 13, 2018)

the vet even offered that I can bring Paul for 24 hrs to keep at the clinic at no charge so that he could observe his appetite and so on. I said that Paul would freak out and eat nothing, in my understanding . the vet said - I am just trying to give you a break, you said you were tired taking care
I stopped buprenex for now. Giving metacam


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## Thumperina (Jul 13, 2018)

wipes for under the chin area
http://www.allivet.com/p-5805-miconahex-triz.aspx?sku=49883-5
Wipes: 2% Miconazole Nitrate, 2% Chlorhexidine Gluconate, TrizEDTA (Tromethamine USP, Disodium EDTA Dihydrate), Ceramide Complex, Lactic Acid, Sodium Lactate, Cetrimonium Chloride, Aloe Leaf Juice, Lavender Oil, Lemongrass Oil, Polyacrylate-1 Crosspolymer.

ointment for the eye is Gentamicin sulfate ophthalmic (gentax) and I got it in a human pharmacy with written prescription.
He is just refusing critical care feedings from me. he gently bites me, not even bites but touches with his teeth, it doesn't hurt


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## Popsicles (Jul 13, 2018)

Re the lungs, I don’t know if I’m seeing something where there is nothing, but I see faint white branches in the thorax - this could be fluid, or mucus - it could be nothing And I’m just being picky haha.
The diet sounds good - lots and lots of hay, minimal treats.. is he eating hay? Just wondering why you are offering critical care, if he is eating? (And also overweight) 
I agree with you that being at home he will be much happier than staying with the vet, though that was a kind offer. He will do better in a familiar environment. 
The eye drops sound good. As do the wipes. I suggest keep up with giving him something yummy right after wiping to stop him licking it up - once it dries a bit it should be okay


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## Thumperina (Jul 13, 2018)

I can't tell anything about branches in the thorax. No idea. Anybody else seeing anything that shouldn't be there? if it's fluids or mucus, what does it mean for him? (I know if someone overdoses lactated ringers, the complication could be fluids in lungs, do you think it could be the case?)
Regarding critical care. I will explain. The main thing that I was observing that he was eating in the past were vegetables. the second - pellets. He was eating no hay, drinking no water. maybe some grass in the yard. 
Now he ignores vegetables mostly (eats very little), I am not serving any pellets since he kept flipping it over indoors. He gets fluids via sub-q injections. It APPEARS to me that he eats absolutely nothing or next to nothing, which leads to stasis, right? I see him sitting IN boxes with hay in position like he is struggles to poop (they are huge boxes like litter boxes and I put some stuff under them to prevent leakage if he pees). {The reason why I use huge cardboard boxes with no top filled with hay is because they started ignoring regular plastic litter with wooden shavings some time ago. I was seeing them sitting in cardboard boxes with hay to pee and poo, and I left it this way} . I do find some poop in these boxes but since I am not changing hay there every day, it's hard to say how new this poop is. Also, there is not much poop that I find... and I think I find poop at all because I feed critical care. I don't know if he eats hay there or not. I think he does, at least a little bit.


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## Thumperina (Jul 15, 2018)

my bun reacts like he has a reaction on this wipes. He tries to escape every time I use them and I see some new irritation in that area. 
Wipes: 2% Miconazole Nitrate, 2% Chlorhexidine Gluconate, TrizEDTA (Tromethamine USP, Disodium EDTA Dihydrate), Ceramide Complex, Lactic Acid, Sodium Lactate, Cetrimonium Chloride, Aloe Leaf Juice, Lavender Oil, Lemongrass Oil, Polyacrylate-1 Crosspolymer.


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## Popsicles (Jul 15, 2018)

If your vet doesn’t see anything it’s probably me being an over cautious Student, so don’t worry too much especially if he isn’t showing signs of respiratory distress. 
Can you try changing the hay daily, or at least adding a fresh layer, so you can check if he is pooping or not? This is very important to know. How often do you replenish the hay? 
How much critical care are you managing to get into him? 
Could you send a photo of the skin? If it looks more irritated stop with the wipes and tell your vet.


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## Thumperina (Jul 17, 2018)

I will try to take a picture. for now, I picked up triple AB ointment (no pain relief component) to use instead of wipes
I stopped feeding critical care. I want him to eat on his own if he is not that sick (hopefully)


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## Thumperina (Jul 17, 2018)

now one of my birds is acting sick...
and my rash isn't getting any better. it's actually getting worse


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## Popsicles (Jul 17, 2018)

Yeah it would be interesting to see if he will eat more hay if not fed critical care. How is that going? 
Oh no I hope your bird is okay. Could your rash be stress related? You have been through a lot, and I get rashes if I am stressed. Could try some sort of steroid cream, hydrocortisone?


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## Thumperina (Jul 19, 2018)

thank you, Popsicles 
my eczema is for sure stress related but I am sort of cautious of using cortisone, or steroids in general . By the way, i have read that cortisone is very toxic for rabbits, and since my rashes are on arms and hands, and I am handling my pets often, this is another reason why I don't want to use it. But I am slowly getting better. 
I now use triple AB creme on Paul's neck under the chin, and he tolerates it just fine. I really think that he had a reaction for the wipes I was using before


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## Popsicles (Jul 19, 2018)

Topical steroids have way fewer side effects than systemic, maybe you could speak to your pharmacist for some advice? If it stress related it won’t help. Antihistamines might help too. You would be okay using cream and just letting it soak in before handling rabbits just to be safe, though it wouldn’t do much especially with their fur. 
That’s good to hear then!


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