# Something is possible happening ?



## Thumperina (Nov 4, 2017)

Not long ago I lost one of my rabbits, FooFoo, there is a thread about her.

Now I am down to two rabbits, a male and a female (5 and 5.5 yo)
They spend their day in the yard and go inside for the night. If the weather is not good, like wet or too cold and windy, Paul (the male) may not want to come out and we don't insist. Thumperina always wants to go outsise. 

Yesterday I noticed that Paul was in some kind of distress. I saw him sitting in the middle of the yard, doing some repetitive head movements and I think his breathing was more frequent than normal. He looked restless. Usually they stay under the bush or under the deck or under under plastic crates that we have for them. I brought him inside, cleaned the rug that they use so that I can see if he poops or not. He was shaking and scratching his ears a lot, so I thought maybe he had mites. In summer , I treated them with Revolution twice but then I ran out of it, needed another trip to the vet and never picked up another dose. I looked in his ears and didn't see much. While he was sitting there, he pooped some poop and ate some veggies. 

All this was happening on Friday 4pm, my closest vet didn't wish to see us (they were about to close), so I ended up going there and getting another dose of Revolution that I applied to both rabbits upon arrival home. 

I'd say that after this Paul calmed down and I think he is acting as normal. 
He has great appetite. 

Now I am concerned about Thumperina who isn't spayed. I have been sick myself, I finally feel better after being sick for a month (during that month FooFoo passed) so I am preparing to take more care of Thumperina, consult several vets about spaying her and so on. 

Anyway, looking at her now, I am thinking that maybe she is not well too. 
SHe also looks kinda restless, and her breathing rate, I think, maybe higher than normal. (what is a normal breathing rate for them? ) 
She was also found sitting in the yard not under cover, I see her also being restless and doing some strange movements (can't even describe... moving her head in a strange way, shaking her head, doing movements with her jaw like if she is eating but she is not ...) 
she did eat some kale this morning but not all of it... I am not able to tell you if she poops OK. to tell, I will need to separate her watch her while she is alone. I just saw that another rabbit pooped a lot and he ate well... 

Oh one thing that I can't explain and FooFOo had this too before she died. Fur at the base of her ears looks like it was wet and then dried... not smooth. DOes it suppose discharge from the ears? I don't see anything wrong inside the ears. just the fur at the ear base looks strange. 

I will be taking her to the vet on MOnday, but I am not sure what they even need to look at... vet here are not rabbit vets... not very experienced.


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## Thumperina (Nov 4, 2017)

If they have mites, would revolution take care of the problem or do I need some crazy steps like disinfecting all their stuff?


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## ladysown (Nov 4, 2017)

why not instead of guessing what is going on with them.. why don't you just bring them to the vet? It doesn't sound like mites, unless they have gone really deep and caused an infection. You'll need meds to clear that up.


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## Thumperina (Nov 4, 2017)

ladysownh said:


> why not instead of guessing what is going on with them.. why don't you just bring them to the vet? It doesn't sound like mites, unless they have gone really deep and caused an infection. You'll need meds to clear that up.


it's weekend, they are closed. I actually drove with Thumperina towards the vet that was only open for couple of hours, but while driving I gave them a call and was told that the vet that sees rabbits wasn't there at all. so I had to turn back home. 
plus, I am not sure that the vets that I have here would be able to pinpoint the problem easily, so it's good to have some ideas what it could be from experienced rabbit owners


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## Thumperina (Nov 5, 2017)

she is possibly not pooping. 

Can they have blockage due to digested hair? 

How can I help her poop until Monday? She usually eating grass in the yard and not very keen of hay...


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## Thumperina (Nov 5, 2017)

I also see that she is trying to eat poop - not cecal poop but pelleted poop... couple of days ago I saw her trying to eat poop out of the littler box that had some wood shavings stuck to it... can this be causing a problem? 
I just bought simethicon drops


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## Aki (Nov 5, 2017)

OK, so first you have to make sure if they are both eating and pooping by putting them with food and a clean litter box for a few hours. A rabbit in stasis is not hard to spot, they will generally move around very little and appear to be in pain (hunched position, possible shaking, possible gritting of teeth). If they are not and that you don't have metacam / reglan you'll have to get them to an emergency vet or to call one to come over depending on what's avaiblable where you live - they can't wait until Monday. If they are pooping and eating let them be in a quiet place (no going outside, you can't monitor them, it's getting cold and it's not a place for rabbits who are poorly) and take both of them to the vet on Monday to have them thoroughly examined.


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## Thumperina (Nov 5, 2017)

please don't forget that my rabbits have been raised outside, they do eat what grows outside (grass) and unfortunately don't eat very much what is given to indoors bunnies (hay). they also don't drink water (at least I don't see them drinking at all, and this is how it has been for years) 
when i came to check on them this morning when the sun was up (this is when they are usually let out), I saw Thumperina finishing a piece of veggie (I removed pellets by recommendation that I read online for GI stasis), she was moving very quickly, she ran towards me to see if I brought a treat (I didn't ) and then when I opened the door, she quickly ran outside (its not cold today... over 50F in the morning and should be almost 70F during the day but it's been drizzling and wet) and soon after, I saw her eating leaves in the yard... I know this sounds kinda questionable (if this is the best routine for potentially sick rabbit), I am planning to bring her indoors alone to check her poop, I still think that her poop is very small... 
we don't have luxury of emergency vet on Sunday, only emergency vet that can put to sleep (this is I was told)


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## Thumperina (Nov 5, 2017)

I think she has some discomfort from internal issue and she may be in some pain which is causing her not eat very well...she is stubborn as hell, too.. 
Just saw her shaking her head/ears hard like if ears were itchy. 
I really hope that tomorrow at 8am when the vets open it won't be late to help her.


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## Thumperina (Nov 5, 2017)

is this correct that I shouldn't force syringe feed her unless it's confirmed by the vet that it's safe to do?


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## Thumperina (Nov 5, 2017)

are kitty's malt flavored hairball remedies safe for rabbits? I want to go buy some


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## Thumperina (Nov 5, 2017)

She has eaten some veggies but her poops are small and just a few of them.. gave her 2 ml of simethicon


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## Thumperina (Nov 6, 2017)

update after visiting the vet 
Thumperina lost a little over 1 lbs recently
the vet did X ray and she thinks it's uterine cancer that spread and surgery isn't an option. 
She also has her hip in a bad shape but it has been this way for years (it was seen on X ray several years ago), surprisingly, she is getting around rather well. 
The vet gave me supply of metacam and critical care... we will see how it goes. 
I just gave her 30 ml of critical care and she took it rather well. I also saw her eating some veggies, I think metacam made her feel a bit better. 
A question - how much critical care do i need to feed her? 
Of course, I am devastated but I try to accept it.. I am concerned about her bonded male companion... he would be left alone.


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## doodlebugger (Nov 6, 2017)

I'm really sorry for what you are going through. The questions you are asking really aren't something that can be easily figured out by people here because most of us have indoor rabbits I think. Our vet thought our female rabbit had uterine cancer also, but agreed to do the surgery to verify if that was the case. Turned out to be an infected uterus instead (forget the name for it), and she was fine after she had the surgery and recovered. Can you get a second opinion? Is your vet rabbit savvy?


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## Thumperina (Nov 6, 2017)

doodlebugger said:


> I'm really sorry for what you are going through. The questions you are asking really aren't something that can be easily figured out by people here because most of us have indoor rabbits I think. Our vet thought our female rabbit had uterine cancer also, but agreed to do the surgery to verify if that was the case. Turned out to be an infected uterus instead (forget the name for it), and she was fine after she had the surgery and recovered. Can you get a second opinion? Is your vet rabbit savvy?


thank you. I will see how it goes... if she makes it far enough for the second opinion. 
She is eating some veggies, and some critical care. However... I just saw some blood in the littler box. Never seen it before 

This vet thinks about herself that as rabbit specialist. She has 5 rabbits of her own. 

Several years ago Thumperina had urine scald when I brought her to this vet. Back then, the vet said that the urine problem was due to being "too furry" (she is a large bun). everybody here thought such reason sounded like BS

NOt sure if she is savvy... I hope she is


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## Thumperina (Nov 7, 2017)

Is it better to give metacam twice a day or once? we are prescribed to give 2ml once a day but I thought maybe to break it down into 2 doses 

Not even sure if I am doing her a favor trying to extend her life, feeding critical care, and so on... there is a little bit of blood in litter box. What you think? 

two rabbits that passed in my household before her, passed instantly.


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## JBun (Nov 7, 2017)

If she seems uncomfortable and in pain that it is severely affecting her quality of life, then I wouldn't want to prolong her suffering. However, if her pain seems to be controlled well, and she still seems happy enough and can continue to do her rabbity things, I would be inclined to let her continue to enjoy her life and being with her bun friend. Though you do have to keep evaluating her condition, watching for any decline in life quality.

With the metacam, I prefer to give it twice a day. It's better coverage as it starts to wear off much sooner than 24 hours, then they are in pain until the next dose. It is usually recommended to give twice daily dosing by experienced rabbit vets, and usual recommended daily maintenance dosing is 0.3-0.6mg/kg per day, so you would have to know the metacam concentration(eg. 1.5mg/ml or the 0.5mg/ml suspension) and your buns weight to figure if she is getting the right dose. Many inexperienced rabbit vets often prescribe far under the recommended dose, so it basically doesn't help control the pain well, if at all. So making sure the right dose is given and that it is actually helping your bun, is important.
http://vgr1.com/metacam/ (dosing reference)


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## Thumperina (Nov 7, 2017)

JBun said:


> If she seems uncomfortable and in pain that it is severely affecting her quality of life, then I wouldn't want to prolong her suffering. However, if her pain seems to be controlled well, and she still seems happy enough and can continue to do her rabbity things, I would be inclined to let her continue to enjoy her life and being with her bun friend. Though you do have to keep evaluating her condition, watching for any decline in life quality.
> 
> With the metacam, I prefer to give it twice a day. It's better coverage as it starts to wear off much sooner than 24 hours, then they are in pain until the next dose. It is usually recommended to give twice daily dosing by experienced rabbit vets, and usual recommended daily maintenance dosing is 0.3-0.6mg/kg per day, so you would have to know the metacam concentration(eg. 1.5mg/ml or the 0.5mg/ml suspension) and your buns weight to figure if she is getting the right dose. Many inexperienced rabbit vets often prescribe far under the recommended dose, so it basically doesn't help control the pain well, if at all. So making sure the right dose is given and that it is actually helping your bun, is important.
> http://vgr1.com/metacam/ (dosing reference)


JBun thank you 
She is prescribed 2 ml per day of 1.5 mg/ml , being 8 lbs, it gives slightly more, about 0.8 mg/kg/day
I have read that rabbits that get metacam need to be well hydrated to avoid problem with kidneys, I think we have a problem with it. I do give her critical care, but after 2 syringes (15 ml each) she becomes very inpatient and not cooperating. I give her 30 ml of critical care per feeding, and I feed 4 times a day (its hard to do more) so she definitely not receiving enough. She eats very little (veggies) on her own. I see her eating occasionally a leaf in the yard. She ate a few apple slices, a bit of Simple rewards veggie treats, she never refuses a small piece of banana (but this all is sugar...) 
I wonder if she still develops stasis with this kind of nutrition. I don;t know any longer if she poops and what she poops (I see a little bit of blood in the litterbox) . They are sitting together and there is plenty of poop but her companion unfortunately eats for two...


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## Thumperina (Nov 7, 2017)

JBun said:


> It is usually recommended to give twice daily dosing by experienced rabbit vets, and usual recommended daily maintenance dosing is 0.3-0.6mg/kg per day,


hold on... do we divide daily dose by 2 if we give it twice a day, or literally "give twice daily dosing"? if she is prescribed 2 ml per day, do I give her 2 ml twice a day (4ml total) or 1 ml twice a day?


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## JBun (Nov 7, 2017)

It would be the prescribed 2ml dose split into two doses, so 1ml twice a day. She's already getting higher than the usual dose, which is ok if it's what your vet feels is needed, but you don't want to be doubling it. And remember, this twice daily dosing is just what I do as it's what my vet prescribes and what is recommended by other experienced rabbit vets. If you have questions about your own rabbits dosing, you should discuss it with your own vet.

Will she eat the critical care on her own if you offer it to her in a dish? If not, all you can do is your best to get her to take as much as possible without stressing her too much. 

With the head shaking that you were describing earlier, did the vet make sure to check her ears and her teeth to make sure they aren't contributing to her not eating very well?


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## Thumperina (Nov 8, 2017)

thank you and yes, the vet checked her teeth and her ears


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## Thumperina (Nov 8, 2017)

I am offering critical care in a dish but she doesn't eat any. This morning she refused most of syringed critical care that I tried to feed her
She has eaten some veggies but I think she is getting real low on fiber and probably dehydrated (and overall getting into stasis) 
we finally have nice sunny weather after about 10 days of overcast cloudy skies , cold and wind. She has been staying under the bush but she is not much interested in anything


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## Thumperina (Nov 8, 2017)

I regret that I didn't get second opinion about possible surgery right away. 
I got her X ray and will talk to another vet office tomorrow morning. 
I can post her images here if somebody wants


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## Thumperina (Nov 9, 2017)

some update.
today I took my girl bun to another vet. Had to borrow money from a friend to be able to do this 
at first, I drove there by myself in the morning (it's far away) in hopes to show them X ray images that the previous vet took (got them in e-mail)
I was able to talk to the vet (there are two vets there that see bunnies, only one was in the office) , he said (of course!) that the images are not the best quality and he would need to see the rabbit. He asked if the previous vet did any blood work or histology. 
Anyway, later I brought Thumperina there... he palpated her and said he didn't feel any masses. He also (sadly) did his own X ray even though I tried to say that radiation isn't so great for anybody. he drew some blood to test. He said he is not so sure if there is cancer going on... maybe UTI that causes blood spotting 

He also said that her hip and knees are in condition that can bother her and give her a lot of pain...yes she has ongoing problem with her hip for 5 years (since the only time she had babies), but we never thought it was a big deal since she was hopping around rather well. Now I look at my bun as senior and almost disabled. 

She also dictates her own conditions about her nutrition. It's very hard to force her to anything. she eats very little but I guess enough to sustain her own life and she doesn't want it differently. She loves metacam though. I guess just let her be is a way to go 

He prescribed baytril for possible infection in her uterus.


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## JBun (Nov 10, 2017)

I'm glad you were able to get a second opinion and that it's more hopeful for your bun. Hopefully with the baytril now, you will see an improvement in a few days if it is just a UTI that your bun has.


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## Thumperina (Nov 10, 2017)

JBun said:


> I'm glad you were able to get a second opinion and that it's more hopeful for your bun. Hopefully with baytril now, you will see an improvement in a few days if it is just a UTI that your bun has.


thanks, I wish I could call it improvement but I think the visit yesterday was a lot of stress for her. it lasted several hours (with driving) and now I am not sure if she is eating anything at all (I don't think so ) 
they blood work came back and he said he doesn't see anything awfully off. one liver function indicator is a bit off norm but other liver numbers are normal

They keep looking at her X ray with other vets and he now says she might have kidney stone...

But of course, my main concern is her nutrition at this time... she may be feeling rather bad overall (hips and internal problems) that she may not want to survive by all means


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## Thumperina (Nov 10, 2017)

anybody had experience with underskin fluid administration? they offer to teach me how and provide with fluids


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## JBun (Nov 10, 2017)

I've given sub q injections, and it's not really hard once they show you how, as long as your bun will hold still for you.

If she's not eating on her own, I would just keep syringe feeding her until she perks back up and starts eating again.


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## Thumperina (Nov 10, 2017)

JBun said:


> I've given sub q injections, and it's not really hard once they show you how, as long as your bun will hold still for you.
> 
> If she's not eating on her own, I would just keep syringe feeding her until she perks back up and starts eating again.


thanks
I already mentioned that I stopped syringe feed her as she was refusing and not cooperating. She was eating little by little on her own... today she finally eat a little bit of veggies but this is very little amount to have a decent poop
I will try critical care again


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## Thumperina (Nov 10, 2017)

also, if she really has kidney stone, would it cause a lot of discomfort and pain?


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## Thumperina (Nov 11, 2017)

correction - I think they spoke about bladder stone, not kidney

When you buns prescribed AB, in what form are they? (baytril in particular) 
I am so mad at the last vet... he prescribed baytril, and all they could give is a injection liquid (that is very bitter) that they mixed with some cherry syrup (only when I asked) . An alternative would be getting it in tablets, crash them myself and mix with apple sauce or other puree . While I was there, I actually was gearing towards tablets that I crash and mix, but they misunderstood and already prepared injection solution for me (and were really insisting that I take it because they already wasted it) 
IS THIS HOW ITS USUALLY PRESCRIBED IN THE 21st CENTURY? 
I doubt it...

Thumperina used to love metacam. She wasn't resisting at all. Now, after I started her on baytril, she HATES a whole thing. She bites me and resists with great force. It takes me more than 30 minutes to get her take her meds. 

Does more appropriate oral form of baytril exist?


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## Thumperina (Nov 11, 2017)

I am reading more on oral baytril and I don't like at all what I read...


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## JBun (Nov 11, 2017)

It is normal for vets to prescribe a baytril suspension liquid for oral dosing. I've never had it prescribed as a tablet to give to rabbits. Most rabbits detest it, that is normal as well. You just have to get it done and over with. It will only be 7-10 days then you're done. You can still try mixing it in with something tasty to make it more palatable for her.

The alternative is to ask the vet for a different antibiotic, and thus have to pay for another prescription. SMZ/TMP syrup is another common one used to treat UTI's and isn't too expensive. I've used it in the past and the rabbits don't seem to hate it as much as baytril. Some even liked it. Though it does carry the risk of a possible allergic reaction as it's a sulfa antibiotic. Or there is orbifloxacin. That would have to be made into a syrup as well, and I'm not sure if it tastes any better than the baytril.


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## Thumperina (Nov 11, 2017)

thank you Jenny 
today I took her to a nearby vet for underskin fluid injection. The last vet we saw (who is far away) gave them a call and asked to help me. 
hope they injected the right thing ...it's called pHyLyte injection pH 7.4
they said she needed 60 ml each time twice a day (she is 8lbs)
I got the bag to inject at home but kinda scared 
Is this the right thing to inject? 

Not sure if its' baytril that gives her even more digestive problems problems or I am stressing her out too much with all the manipulations. I don't see her eating any better. I don't see her eating at all. I only know that she is alive and has lots of forces to protest oral treatment. 

A thing with Baytril is that I don't even know what her issue is and if she needs it... 
I am reading a great article http://www.rabbit.org/health/urolith.html
I can only say that she doesn't have any visible blood on her legs or butt. I have a feeling her bloody discharge sorta stopped.


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## Thumperina (Nov 12, 2017)

i am reading that SMZ is better for their stomach and for UTI - agree?

Also, can fluids be injected when I have an opportunity (of course. not more often than every 12 hours, I just mean can I skip a time if I can't administer it? . In other words nothing read bad is going to happen if I skip, right?


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## JBun (Nov 12, 2017)

That sounds like the right kind of fluids to give. It's up to you if you skip a time or not, but keep in mind that if she's not eating and drinking on her own, then she doesn't get the fluids injected either, she'll get dehydrated and this is gong to be detrimental to her health. We all need nutrition and fluids to survive. If she isn't getting that in sufficient amounts, it can be fatal. If you're in doubt though, you should check with your vet.

If she has a UTI, then she needs antibiotics. The blood may have stopped because she is now getting antibiotics and getting better. Whether you decide to give baytril or smz/tmp, that's up to you and your vet. I prefer smz/tmp, but that said, I have had a rabbit have a negative reaction to it and she ended up dying. So there is always some risk giving any medication.


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## Thumperina (Nov 12, 2017)

JBun said:


> The blood may have stopped because she is now getting antibiotics and getting better.



the problem is that I don't see her getting any better. Even a few days ago, she would nibble on veggies, but for the last 2 days I don't even see this happening. With kind of poop she has, she should have been dead but she is not. 
I have a feeling that the first vet was right and her problem is uterine cancer that is rather bad at this time..

The second vet also mentioned that there is a possibility that something is pressing/blocking her colon, hence her very bad poop. 

thank you so much for talking to me, it means a lot.


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## Thumperina (Nov 12, 2017)

for some reasons , for sub Q I didn't get a drip line. They just gave a 60 ml syringe that I am supposed to fill and then just inject and administer, I guess, slowly. Is this practice OK?


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## Thumperina (Nov 12, 2017)

ok, I gave her my first sub Q fluid shot. 
hope i didn't mess up too much. when I removed the needle, I didn't see any blood on it so I take it as a good sign
Do I need to keep her skin elevated ("tent") while I administering it? 
She was trying to move, so I didn't do it very slow... what happens if it's done faster than needed?


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## Thumperina (Nov 13, 2017)

can rabbits really have GI blockage? she still has tiny poops...of course, she is not eating well. I try to feed her critical care but its not easy.


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## JBun (Nov 13, 2017)

You don't have to hold the skin tented up. You just do it initially to make sure to get the needle into the right place between the skin and muscle. As for administering too fast, you would need to ask your vet about that, but it sounds like you did a good job getting the fluids administered.

GI blockage is when the digestive process stops or nearly stops. If she is still pooping some then she doesn't have a blockage. She has slow gastric motility, which if it continues to slow down from lack of eating sufficient amounts, could eventually develop into a blockage.


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## Thumperina (Nov 14, 2017)

Jenny thank you
I always insert needle in about the same spot (between her shoulders).. can this cause a problem? Should I try other places too? 
yesterday I went to the first vet to pick up more metacam, and asked her about baytril'
She said injectable solution should NEVER be given to rabbits orally, it's very harsh for their stomach (this is what I also read online) - this was my gut feeling. 
She gave me new baytril - to try and see if it helps, I asked her what form it was and she said that they use tablets that they crash and mix with flavored base. It smells real yummy and Thumperina takes it wonderfully


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## Thumperina (Nov 14, 2017)

I also found oral syringes that work best for us for giving critical care. I was having trouble previously. 
Got them at Kroger pharmacy for free, they are only 15ml but I like how smoothly and easily you can empty them, I fill several syringes and put them in a cup with hot water so that the mixture stays warm.


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## Thumperina (Nov 14, 2017)

asked her about SMZ, and she said it's an older AB with not so wide spectrum as baytril... or probably they just didn't have it in stock


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## Thumperina (Nov 15, 2017)

I have noticed when picking her up that her right leg is hanging forcelessly, I know her right hip has been in a bad shape for years (we never knew why she has got it this way) but I wonder if this is her major pain problem or just consequence of other problems ... I am posting her X ray... maybe somebody will have an idea.


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## Thumperina (Nov 15, 2017)

and here are couple of X rays that the second doctor needed to take even though I showed him images from visiting the first vet (I hate when they do it... guess what, after he did this second X ray, he said that ultrasound would be nice, too)
I know, there is more gas build up in her GI tract on the second round of images


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## PaGal (Nov 15, 2017)

just keep in mind that over time the syringes can get harder to give medicine with. I believe the rubber swells over time and then it can be hard to plunge. I like to keep extra around for this reason


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## Thumperina (Nov 15, 2017)

thank you PaGal! 
are you speaking about feeding syringes ? yes, it's easy to get new suuply of them in a local pharmacy

I have a HUGE question about syringe for sub Q fluids. it is 60 ml syringe that originally came in a plastic tube that says it's sterile and use only once and discard. They provided my with supply of sterile needles but gave me only one of this syringes. So, after administering fluids I am supposed to replace the needle with a new one and keep it this way till the next time... 
However the syringe itself is exposed to air and germs from the air, I mean the inside of the plastic tube as it's kept between uses in a position of plunger all the way up (liquid emptied)
I dropped the syringe the other day and asked for a new one but they said - just rinse it and use again... 
So I am boiling water, pour in a clean jar, cover with a clean plate, let it cool until it's still hot but not boiling hot and then rinse a whole syringe (without needle of course) in this jar and then put a new needle on before I administer the medicine. Is this acceptable way of doing it?


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## Thumperina (Nov 16, 2017)

this last feeding / medicine intake she was sooo passive, but it's still so hard to make a decision to stop force feeding her and giving her the meds... 

I pray the Lord to take her if it's time for her to go. Take her fast and with little pain.


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## Thumperina (Nov 20, 2017)

If somebody's wondering, Thumperina is doing not so bad ( not great, either) 
I give her twice a day critical care (trying to squeeze into her 50ml each time), metacam and sub Q fuilds shot . I wonder if this is how we are going to be till the rest of her days... my concern is that meds are expensive. Weekly: $22 for metacam, $38 for fluids, and about $10-14 for critical care. I can't afford it in the long run I know I can get critical care cheaper online but what about metacam and electrolyte shots?
I still don't know what is going on inside her body and in her mind. Anybody know, if the right hip joint is destroyed, would she still have blood flow in that leg? when she hops. it looks like she is using both rear legs, but when I pick her up her right leg hangs down like she is not controlling it at all. 

also, if there are any other better ideas on pain control for her? how long can she take metacam with no damage to her liver, etc?


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## Thumperina (Nov 24, 2017)

A question about sub Q fluids
I will be out of the medicine for 2 days (Sat, Sun) because of Thanksgiving break everywhere. Actually I won't be literally out, but it will be more than 7 days since I started the bag. 
What can I do to keep my sick bun hydrated? to buy Pedialyte or give orally? 

In general, how long can I do sub Q fluids? do they make skin sore from everyday injections?
She doesn't drink on her own and her vegies intake isn;t so great 

To decrease stress, I keep her together with her companion and still don't know what she eats VS what he eats in the daily veggie / food offering. Any suggestions on what camera I can install in location where they eat to monitor what she eats?


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## Chamarith (Nov 27, 2017)

This is a sad situation indeed, but all I can give is compassion and empathy. My greatest fear is my virgin doe getting uterine cancer, but my old country vet advised against it because of the dangers of anesthesia and antibiotics. He has many years experience with farm animals and rabbits.
I am a poor elderly man that cannot afford what you are doing to save your bunny's life. I do admire you. &#9787;&#9786;


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## Thumperina (Nov 29, 2017)

thank you so much Chamarith , I hope your bun will be ok and no cancer for her!


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## Chamarith (Nov 30, 2017)

Thank you so much for your comment. 
After I adopted my little sweetheart I found out that virgin does over the age of 4 have an 85% probability of getting uterine cancer. I was instantly terrified because we bonded immediately, closer than any other animal friend that I ever had. After this horrifying discovery I did further research into "spay or not to spay." I learned that rabbits are very sensitive to anesthesia and antibiotics. My old country vet has many years experience with farm animals and many rabbits. He suggested that I not have her spayed. I took his advice over the overwhelming advice I found online. She is now 5 years, 3 months of age and is very happy and healthy. I do check every wet spot in her litter boxes for blood in her urine prior to covering the wet spot. The last time she say a cage was when she was 9 weeks of age. I am hoping that her freedom, the best possible diet, plenty of excessive and our 24/7/365 togetherness will win out over the evil "C".
I have never loved and bonded with any other animal like her.&#9787;&#9786; me&P 




Thumperina said:


> thank you so much Chamarith , I hope your bun will be ok and no cancer for her!


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## Thumperina (Dec 16, 2017)

Chamarith said:


> After I adopted my little sweetheart I found out that virgin does over the age of 4 have an 85% probability of getting uterine cancer.


I wonder if rates of possible cancer are higher or lower for does that had children. Anybody know? 

In a meantime, Thumperina is doing OK. I give her metacam and simethicone twice a day (if nothing gets in the way), she seems to be eating OK on her own. I stopped sub Q fluids. I still have a feeling that she would benefit from more water, I just don't know how to deliver it to her. Critical care is too much pain to prepare so I stopped feeding it. Its not hard to prepare, its just very time consuming to get it into small 10ml syringes (that need to be clean) and then into her. Small syringes are the only that I have success with.

Not sure if I should give her metacam non stop.. 

Can simethicone be given without limitations? I give her 1.5 ml each time, twice a day... no harm?


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## Aki (Dec 16, 2017)

Having kits doesn't affect the cancer rates at all - like for humans, being a virgin or not doesn't affect your health except in terms of venereal diseases which animals can get too. Like for humans, having youngs can affect the rabbit considering she can die while delivering, but it has no long term effects on her global health. Does get cancer because when they are available all year around, without cycles, which means they have constantely an insanely high level of hormones coursing their body. They just are not engineered to last long, which makes sense when you take into account the number of things which are out to get them - wild rabbits never reach 5 years anyway so it's more important for the species that they are able to reproduce fast and often rather than having individuals who can potentially live for long. Rabbits aren't particularly sensitive to anesthesia or antibiotics. Antibiotics can slow the guts a bit, but it seldom really affect their health, and if gas is used by a competent vet death during anesthesia is a rarity (it's around 1%, considering that most of the deaths are actually caused by a heart problem that wasn't detected before the operation). If you compare it to the 80% of cancer risk, I never hesitated a second to get my rabbits spayed.

To give water, you just give it with a syringe, like meds. But don't do it if your rabbit is not deshydrated. You have to adjust metacam / simethicone / critical care by watching your rabbit. Nobody can tell you if she needs them without seeing her - if she's not in pain, you can lower the metacam. If she's not gassy she doesn't need simethicone. If she's eating fine on her own and that her weight is maintaining itself, she doesn't need critical care. If you are not sure, you have to discuss it with a vet.


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## Popsicles (Jun 4, 2018)

I have found the post you were talking about about thumperina. How is she since this was written? The X-ray of her hip looks terribly painful and I’m amazed she has any movement at all, so I would definitely recommend longterm pain meds. And I don’t know what they are seeing on the X-ray that they think is uterine cancer because I can’t see that at all, and I’m interested why, if they think it is, they say they can’t operate? What are your main concerns now and I can try and answer? You’ve probably figured loads out since this was posted


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## Thumperina (Jun 4, 2018)

thank Popsicle. After she was rather bad last November (I didn't see her eating anything except dry leaves in the yard at all) she perked up and was acting rather cheerful all cold months - with great appetite, good activity level, interested in life, etc. I even stopped giving her pain meds at some point. Then this May, she sort of declined again (I wonder if it was because she wasn't receiving pain meds) - wasn't eating and so on. But also hot weather arrived which is always bad news for outdoor rabbits (I don't think you even know this sort of heat in UK). I started both of them on pain med and critical care again, I also was giving them Sub Q fuilds but not for long, and she is doing better. She also looks and feels lightweight to me, but I just had a chance to weight her, she lost a little bit but not much at all (7.8 lbs now compared to 8 something in the past).
She is also sort of picky, refusing some treats that she was accepting (but eats others), she also for unknown reason doesn't eat her favorite veggies in the morning (but eats them later, I guess morning is reserved for eating grass)
I have a feeling she is in some sort of preservation mode - only consumes what sustains her life but not more than that (which is probably good). Not sure why, she leaves her own cecotropes uneaten, while she should have no problems to reach there.
Speaking of her moving around, she is a quick runner and never had problems to move around (interesting, isn't it?) She wouldn't hesitate to jump down from a chair (Paul would never dare)
I am concerned about her frequent breathing that I see rather often. Not sure if its from the pain or what.


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## Thumperina (Jun 4, 2018)

Since two Xrays in November weren't very conclusive, they advise to do an ultra sound to see what sort of internal problems she has... To tell you honestly, I am so drained emotionally and financially taking care of their very multiple needs, I also have 8 cockatiels that don't get proper attention because of all the bunny stress. I myself had shingles outbreak not long ago, also from all the stress. My own kiddo is abandoned. She goes to a summer camp in upstate New York every summer, we just paid for it and it's not cheap (I would hate to tell her that she can't go). I work at school - paid hourly, now it's summer break so I am not making anything at all. Need another job, but not sure when - these bunnies are so high maintenance. Paul needs more diagnostics, I just asked the vet about cost of everything, and with every procedure done in the office, they would charge cost of exam if its done on a new visit...


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## Popsicles (Jun 4, 2018)

It definitely sounds like the pain meds and fluids are keeping her happy, so as time consuming as that is defo keep them up. 
An ultrasound would be a useful diagnostic tool at this point, but I wonder, if they don’t have the capability, and you don’t gave the funds, to perform surgery, is there really much point in diagnosis if there isn’t any way of treating? You seem t be managing symptoms okay with the system you are using now? Something to consider...
That truly sounds exhausting  its silly how much they can take over our lives! I really feel for you  vet bills can soon rack up! Have you started him on the baytril? If that makes him better at least you can save on the diagnostics there?


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## Thumperina (Jun 14, 2018)

I really don't know what to do. 
Before the hot weather arrived, the setup was the following. 
After spending night in garage (where they have rugs, hiding boxes, litter boxes, and so on, its rather comfortable there, my bunnies love their garage) I was letting them out when the morning arrived, depending on the weather. Then, they were supposed to have some free range grass grazing time. After some time (about 9am), I was serving their morning veggies. They have a rug under the deck (it's comfy there too) where I would place their tray with veggies, water (they never drink), and so on. After this, they would usually nap till later time (under the deck or under the bush). In the evening, they always came out to have some play time and grass time in the yard, I like to hang out with them during this time, offering them some treats etc... then finally when the darkness falls (Around 9pm), it was time to go back into garage (they were going on their own, in and out, without need to be picked up I mean) where I was serving their evening veggies, pellets, and water. Oh, in garage we keep a lamp on all night long (like a night light). I know that they usually didn't sleep during the night or maybe they napped, and usually they would be finishing their veggies before morning hours. (are rabbits supposed to sleep at night? is it a bad idea to have a light on all night?)
This was our ideal, uncomplicated setup, and Thumperina was doing OK all colder months. 

Now changes that we had to make with beginning of summer and beginning of hotter weather
The temps were bearable till about noon (veggies are still served under the deck in the morning), then I would either bring them in the house or into garage where I have portable AC unit (it cools down OK when it's not super hot outside) for the day 
At about 7.30 - 8pm it was cool enough to let them out, and they loved it. Oh, to get them in and out of the house, i have to pick them up and carry them in (probably stressful). 
When the darkness falls, its still too warm to send them into garage (none of us like the feel of AC unit). they keep hanging in the yard longer now. I stay there with them. I do serve their evening veggies in the yard but they barely eat them. Finally, I can bring them in, and it's between 10 and 11pm, same routine as before. AC for the night, or if it's under 70F we have another solution. 

The last week its been super hot, with the heat index being way higher than the actual T. Humidity is building up in the air. Thunderstorms all around us but not where we are (haven't had any rain for some time). At 6am, it's good if it's 75F. May be higher with heat index. I let them out now very early, when it's not even fully light, to allow catch this "cooler" weather. Serving their favorite kale maybe at 8am. Thumperina now refuse morning kale (not sure what happened) - tried serving earlier, no luck. She is seen eating some grass, but I wouldn't say she eats sufficient amount. By 10, max 11am, I have to bring them inside, first into air-conditioned garage, then into the house. Still trying to push wet veggies into them. Sometimes have some luck , sometimes no luck. In the evening, even at 9pm when the sun sets, it's still "feels like" 90+. I still have been taking them out into the yard at 9m, thinking that they need to eat grass for water intake. But they just lying down and shaking. Finally bringing them into the house overnight (now garage AC unit can't cool it well enough). There is a dehumidifying pipe that drains water after AC unit takes it out of the air into the bucket. I am amazed how quickly it fills. During this super hot week they spend a day and then a night in the house. Veggies are served before night. sometimes they are good about eating them but not all the time. 

So during this week Thumperina is giving my a very hard time. First of all, now she gets overheated much easier than she used to during previous summers (When she is seen panting). When I bring her in (if she is panting ) she keeps panting for some time (today I even misted cool water on their ears), then she's usually not exactly lethargic, but sort of passive, sitting very quiet, with breath barely detectable. I feed her critical care. I think she is somewhat dehydrated with all the heat and not eating much. I ordered sub Q fluids but it will take time to get it. When outside in the morning, I can see her eating some grass but obviously much less than she should. She is not good about eating veggies anymore - I don't know why. She is on metacam. I don't have an opportunity to feed critical care more than once a day. I already spend way too much time jiggling them around. Her poop is minimal. She is very picky about veggies choice. For example, yesterday I wasn't able to get good-looking Romaine. Got endive but nobody touched it (they ate endive in the past). I have made a decision not to let them out in the evening when it's about 90 or higher . You see, keeping them inside makes her depressed, taking them out when too hot makes her overheated. 

Now answering this "An ultrasound would be a useful diagnostic tool at this point, but I wonder, if they don’t have the capability, and you don’t gave the funds, to perform surgery, is there really much point in diagnosis if there isn’t any way of treating? You seem t be managing symptoms okay with the system you are using now? Something to consider..."
I would like to know if she has cancer or not. If yes, how much it spread. Maybe she is ready to let herself go and I keep her here to suffer.


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## Thumperina (Jun 14, 2018)

Tried to syringe feed some water in her. No success. She doesn't swallow and it all pours out of her mouth.


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## Popsicles (Jun 14, 2018)

That is definitely a lot to think about! 
In answer to your question, rabbits are crepuscular so are most active at dawn and dusk, so they will sleep on and off throughout day and night. There is no need to keep a light on for them as they have good night vision, but it also won’t cause any problems. 
It does sound like she is suffering, and that’s even more difficult if you are also struggling to get fluids and critical care into her  im so sorry for what you’re going through.
I fully understand your stance on the further testing, do you think that is something you will go through with then.
Sending you and Thumperina (and Paul) all my love xx


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## Thumperina (Jun 14, 2018)

thank you Popsicle. 
I am trying to specify about Meloxidyl dosage. Internet says 0.3-0.6 mg/kg, safe up to 1.5 mg/kg but it doesn't say if it's a daily amount or one time safe administration (I give it every 12 hrs). Could someone please help me with this? JBun? Popsicle? 

I watched her now in the basement. she is not panting, but her breathing is still frequent. However, Paul also has breathing that is sort of frequent (about 2 times per second). I wonder if this can be a result of decreased water intake (I won't say dehydrated since both of them DO pee and she has lots of forces to push me when she doesn't want me to mess with her) but still they are not properly hydrated. Or should I necessarily suspect the worst pain/suffering because of her breathing?


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## Popsicles (Jun 14, 2018)

This would normally be daily, but best just to check with your vet what they intended.
I can’t think of any reason why dehydration would cause an increased respiratory rate, it could easily just be because of the high temperatures. If there is a lot of pain you can also expect them to be sort of hunched up, teeth grinding, etc. If it is just fast breathing, and it’s both of them, I would imagine it’s more of a reaction to the heat. I don’t know for sure of course that’s just my guess.


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## Thumperina (Jun 14, 2018)

thank you, their breathing is fast even inside the house and even when its not hot outside 
the last time I took Paul in, the guy vet said that his increased rate could be due to drinking no water


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## Popsicles (Jun 15, 2018)

I understand now - is the heart rate also increased then? It is difficult, when they don’t drink water, I feel for you


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## Thumperina (Jun 15, 2018)

I would say yes. The heart rate is probably increased too. 
They had a good outdoor time this morning 6 to 9 (if you call a good time when it's 77-80F) 
that all we can do in this weather.


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## Popsicles (Jun 15, 2018)

Yes it must be so hard with weather like yours! You’re doing the absolute best you can be!


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## Thumperina (Jun 16, 2018)

I am afraid she is quite unwell. She breathes with her whole body and seems in pain/uncomfortable. Not eating much, except critical care I give her. All indoors. 
I decided to give her Baytril, just in case she has something where AB can help. Going to see a doctor for sure on Monday... if she makes it. Giving metacam t00. Darn weather is still very hot.


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## Thumperina (Jun 17, 2018)

Knowledgeable members,
what tests should I ask for in this situation?
should I opt for an ultrasound since the last Xray was not conclusive? she hasn't been to a vet since November (when i started this thread)


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## Popsicles (Jun 17, 2018)

I’m so sorry she is suffering  remind me, you have had X-ray, have you had any other tests? A blood test would be nice for sure. What do we suspect, does she’s have any specific symptoms or just generalised pain?


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## Thumperina (Jun 17, 2018)

I think a general blood work was done back in November and didn't show any bad abnormalities.
Today I took them out at 6am in the morning and she started eating grass immediately. I didn't stay all the time outside to see how long/much she would eat but at least I saw her eating some grass. I have very bad night sleeping time and not quite well myself so I went back to catch a little more sleep. When I came back to the yard before 8, I offered them some kale, romaine, and a piece of carrot to each. Thumperina ate a piece of carrot but ignored the rest. 
For sure, they miss their backyard. I saw her urinating , not much of urine but some and I don't think she was struggling too pee. 
Later I tried to feed her some critical care but it was very hard. She bit me and drew some blood out of my finger which never happened before. I gave her 40 ml and let her go. I just don't want her to take baytril when her system is empty. 
Symptoms: lying down and you can call it "slightly shaking" with all her body, breathing frequently, eyes are sometimes closed or almost closed. I think she was grinding her teeth yesterday a little bit. 

I don't know if it can be just stress from drastic circumstances change (weather, housing, hours in the yard) + her unspayed hormones. But I doubt it.


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## Thumperina (Jun 17, 2018)

when a rabbit doesn't eat much, and bacteria grows, is Baytril helpful against this bacteria or should it be a different AB?


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## Thumperina (Jun 17, 2018)

not sure about baytril. Reading that metronidazol is needed. What do you all think?


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## Thumperina (Jun 17, 2018)

if she has Clostridium growing , Would Baytril make more harm than good since it's wiping out her good flora? JBun?


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## Thumperina (Jun 17, 2018)

Trying to find metronidazole for fish. Can i give it? What about activated charcoal? I have a feeling she is in that state when bad bacteria poisons her


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## Popsicles (Jun 17, 2018)

If it’s a case of bad bacteria proliferating the best thing is to provide pre- and pro-biotics to encourage growth of healthy bacteria, rather than trying to kill the bad bacteria. And lots of hay, no sugary foods. 
She is clearly in pain, it’s difficult to determine what is causing it


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## Popsicles (Jun 17, 2018)

Metronidazole for fish? Why? 
Activated charcoal is used to bind certain toxic substances, so unless she has eaten something poisonous it won’t be any use.


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## Thumperina (Jun 17, 2018)

Popsicles said:


> If it’s a case of bad bacteria proliferating the best thing is to provide pre- and pro-biotics to encourage growth of healthy bacteria, rather than trying to kill the bad bacteria. And lots of hay, no sugary foods.
> She is clearly in pain, it’s difficult to determine what is causing it


and how am I supposed to make her eat lots lots of hay? I got it about carrot (good point). 
I just mean, whatever caused her stop eating (could even be stress from all the changes) could get her in a state when now bad bacteria grew and her body is struggling fight toxins produced by bacteria + heat + drinking no water. Activated charcoal won't hurt, I think. 
What could be a source of pre and probiotics? I am ready to try anything. 
My fear is that even when I take her to the doc tomorrow, it won't make anything clear. 

Another detail to her history: back in November I was seeing a little bit of blood in the litter box. Then it stopped. then I think I saw some small amount later once again (months later). But in general I don't see it anymore.


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## Thumperina (Jun 17, 2018)

Popsicles said:


> Metronidazole for fish? Why?
> Activated charcoal is used to bind certain toxic substances, so unless she has eaten something poisonous it won’t be any use.


because I can't get metronidazole a normal way from the vet due to today being Sunday. 
I am afraid she has clostridium infection because she is not eating for a few days or eating very little .


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## Popsicles (Jun 17, 2018)

It is very difficult, can try replenishing often, to make it more appealing, sprinkling something yummy on top (dried herbs, etc), cutting down on pellets (can’t remember if you feed any?)
I don’t see any benefit to activated charcoal as it doesn’t work in that way, but I am not an expert and it’s up to you what you want to try. 
With “bad” bacteria proliferation it is the gas production that is the issue rather than the toxins produced, usually. 
The only pre- and pro-biotics I have seen were sold by the Vets, so maybe you could give it a google to see if there is another source? 
Clostridium proliferation is unlikely, it is usually only a result of high doses of certain antibiotics, and if serious is usually accompanied by severe diarrhoea. How are her faeces? 
I wouldn’t suggest using products cross-species, and as it is an antibiotic treatment waiting one day won’t make a huge difference.


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## Thumperina (Jun 17, 2018)

Pellets are offered but nobody eats them. Paul doesn't eat them since the time it became hot. usually a time when they eat pellets was overnight in garage, but everything is so messed up recently. 
2 days ago I would say her poop was more or less OK for her. now I don't even know who is pooping where since I try not to disturb them. Paul is eating all the veggies I try to convince Thumperina to eat, he leaves messy cecals (not good, I know but what to do)
She scared me when I thought her ears felt cold. Measured her T, no, it was OK (under 103, 102 something ). I gave her 2 ml of simethicone.


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## Thumperina (Jun 17, 2018)

need to know if I should go on with Baytril or not. Gave it yesterday night and this morning.


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## Thumperina (Jun 17, 2018)

Don't even know where to take her tomorrow. To "All creatures" guy vet? He doesn't have an ultrasound, his brother (also a vet) does, but I don't like his brother much (the brother sees small animals but several times proved he is not very knowledgeable). I won't have funds to pay for both, an ultrasound and Xray if they say there is a need. 
there is also a vet I have never dealt with , she is rather far away but she also sees small animals. Somebody recommended her on our local net.


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## Popsicles (Jun 17, 2018)

Okay yeah I understand. That’s good that her poops were normal, if you aren’t sure who’s poops are who’s then that is good because it hopefully means they aren’t abnormal. Maybe it is worth stopping giving so much veg is she isn’t eating them and it is affecting not Paul’s caecotropes. Simethicone will be good for now, definitely. 
How long have you been giving the baytril for? I would keep going until the vet tells you otherwise. 
Do you have any exotics Vets near you, if not rabbit specialists? If not, all I can say is go with your gut.
Without doing a clinical exam i can’t really help you with what tests need to be done as it’s difficult to know what we are looking for. I wish I could help you more!


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## Thumperina (Jun 18, 2018)

Still haven't been to the vet. Made lots of calls (learning about new vets that somebody recommended) , made an appointment for tomorrow. 
A few questions: 

Enlarged heart - is it a permanent condition that is seen on XRay? in other words, if a rabbit had an Xray done and no enlarged heart was seen, she probably doesn't have it, correct? 

I am trying to figure out if I didn't accidentally overdose Revolution the last time
Her weight is 3.5 kg (7.8 lbs), concentration was 120 mg/ml. How many in ml did I need to give her? (I have my number, just wanted to compare)


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## Popsicles (Jun 18, 2018)

Very sensible trying to find the best vet, good luck for tomorrow!
If it is only slightly enlarge it would be difficult to diagnose on X-ray but yes if pathologically enlarged usually you would see on X-ray. Of course, the X-ray was done a while ago? So there’s a chance it has become enlarged since then.
Usual dose range is 6-18mg/kg (but can be higher or lower depending on what you were treating for? So you would be safe giving 18x3.5 = 63mg, roughly half a ml? Sorry if my maths is off it’s been a long day lol. But it is very difficult to overdose on selamectin. How much did you give?


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## Thumperina (Jun 18, 2018)

0.53 ml
for prevention purposes


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## Popsicles (Jun 18, 2018)

Yeah that sounds absolutely fine


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## Thumperina (Jun 19, 2018)

Indoors, which is 21 hrs a day, she is not eating anything. She is also limp and not interested in anything indoors. 
Outdoors (morning only) she eats some grass but sort of briefly. 
I am not sure how much longer she will hang around... yes taking her to a doc this afternoon but not sure if it is going to help much


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## Popsicles (Jun 19, 2018)

I really feeldpr ou your situation is so difficult  
I have all my fingers and toes crossed that the vet can come up with some sort of solution for you


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## Thumperina (Jun 19, 2018)

I don't know how sick she is but I know she is extremely depressed: By environmental changes + getting no treats recently compared to getting treats in the past. Not feeding them any treats WON"T have a result that she is eating what she needs to enthusiastically (hay). Seems like she would rather die. You may criticize me, but I just gave her a piece of carrot and she was very happy. If she is to die, there is no need to refuse her a treat as her last wish ! But she had been there in the past - eating next to nothing , and she survived (but it wasn't hot)


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## Thumperina (Jun 19, 2018)

I have a feeling that a solution would be to move her to a climate comfortable for outdoor rabbits and leave her alone.


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## Popsicles (Jun 19, 2018)

I don’t begrudge you treating her at all, I would do the same - if she’s down and lethargic and by eating anyway, a bit of carrot will enhance her quality of life, which is what really matters!


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## Thumperina (Jun 19, 2018)

Sad news. Its cancer. He pulpated her belly and took a sample.


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## Thumperina (Jun 19, 2018)

he prescribed BAytril, but the problem is that I started in on Saturday, gave 2 times (sat eve and sun morning) then stopped as I wasn't sure if it was right (Im reading often that there can be lots of problems from AB misuse - don't give unless proven they are needed)
WOuld this cause a problem with drug resistance? 
Her urine sample was clear but CBC suggested she is fighting some sort of infection


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## Popsicles (Jun 20, 2018)

I can’t imagine resistance can build up that quickly, and baytril is a very safe antibiotic in rabbits so the benefits should outweigh the risks. 
I am so sorry that it’s bad news  what an amazing fighter she is that this started so long ago and here she is still! And well done to you for your brilliant nursing too. She’s lucky you’re the one looking after her


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## Thumperina (Jun 20, 2018)

thank you Popsicle. I feel totally bad that I didn't spay her, even couple years ago. even a year ago. Interesting, the "guy" vet, the one I saw yesterday, kept telling me in the past that he didn't recommend me to spay her due to her "old" age. He thought she wouldn't tolerate the surgery very well.
I also feel bad because I can't tell how miserable she feels, maybe she would prefer to die quick while I am making her suffer longer by feeding her, etc


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## Popsicles (Jun 20, 2018)

A lot of people seem to be under the misconception that age predisposes to anaesthetic death - in fact if proper anaesthetic protocols are used and IV fluid throughout it shouldn’t make a difference.
You can’t think about that now, you have still given her a fantastical life without spaying, and she has lived such a natural fantastic life compared to so many rabbits! 
That is such a difficult call to make, especially with a rabbit. I know that we provide quality of life questionnaires for other species to help us make that decision, I will see if I can find one for rabbits.


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## Thumperina (Jun 20, 2018)

I m trying to find how much sub Q fluids i should be giving. 
HE prescribed her 50 ml twice a day of lactated ringers, and because marking on the bag was very questionable I mistakenly gave her 100 ml the first time and then another 100 ml 12 hrs later. Now it's time to do it again and I am sort of in fear to overdose it. Any idea how much should be given? She is 3.5 kg or 7.7 lbs


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## Popsicles (Jun 21, 2018)

I would just continue now with what the vet prescribed you, or maybe give 25ml then 50ml if you are worried about the 100ml you gave yesterday.


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## Popsicles (Jun 21, 2018)

I couldn’t find a rabby specific questionnaire by this is some important things to think about (which I’m sure you already have) 
https://rabbit.org/quality-of-life/
And this is just a generic one that might be useful?
https://journeyspet.com/pet-quality-of-life-scale-calculator/


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## Thumperina (Jun 22, 2018)

thank you. I am being paranioc. the last vet for some reasons can't sell us baytril. I suggested that he sends prescription to the lady vet for baytril since she is so great about bunny friendly drugs. He did, and I already picked it up
However, when she previously sold me Baytril for Paul, rather recently, it looked differently and smelled differently than the one I just got for Thumperina. It was in a large bottle and they told me to shake it well each time to mix ingredients. I know she normally uses crushed tablets and mixes with syrup. 
this one more looks like plain flavored sugar syrup. it doesn't say to shake well or anything. it doesn't seem to have more than one ingredient.
The lady vet can very well be mad at me for not trusting her and not using her vet services. 
Can she be so evil that she deliberately gave me plain syrup (thinking that my rabbit should die rather than suffer) and is there any way to check it?


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## Popsicles (Jun 22, 2018)

The only baytril I have seen In practice has been a clear solution like you are describing now, I have never seen it as a suspension that needs to be shaken. 
I doubt a professional who has taken an oath to save animals would do something so petty, especially as if she was found out it would jeopardise her career. Is it not a labelled bottle?


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## Thumperina (Jun 22, 2018)

As far as I know, baytril here is available in 2 forms - injectible clear solution and tablets. According to her, injectible baytril should never be given for rabbits because it's very harsh on their stomach. This is why she uses crushed tablets and mixes with a syrup. so yes, it is a suspension and it's not clear at all. it's creamy consistency whitish color and has a good candy smell here. 
However... it is always possible that a tech messed up while preparing a medication, right? 
and no, it is not manufactured ready to use product where I am


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## Thumperina (Jun 22, 2018)

they put a lable on their bottle. Says Enrofloxacin 22.7 mg/ml


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## Popsicles (Jun 22, 2018)

I see, sorry I’m just used to the oral solution here in UK. The tech can have made a mistake, and potentially given you the injectible form, but it wouldn’t be for revenge. If it is different to what you receive normally, and you are worried they gave the injectible solution by accident, take i to back and ask them to check.
I know you have given subcut fluids, could they let you give the baytril subcut too?


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## Thumperina (Jun 22, 2018)

Im worried they gave me plain syrup


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## Popsicles (Jun 22, 2018)

That would be very unlikely, but if you aren’t happy with it do take it back as they won’t mind fixing it for you


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## Thumperina (Jun 22, 2018)

Went there. Talked to a tech. She said that this is ready to use product with different flavor that they get already premixed... not long ago, such product didn't exist.. oh well. 
JBun, what is your experience with baytril? How do you get yours?


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## Thumperina (Jun 22, 2018)

but in general, I am wondering if there is a way to test anti-bacterial properties even in home conditions... (you probably need a microscope and some other equipment)


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## Popsicles (Jun 23, 2018)

Well that sounds like a positive then  
No unfortunately not, it would need to be done in a lab


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## Thumperina (Jun 23, 2018)

Thumperina is very weak. Although she comes out each morning, I don't think she eats anything at all (except some critical care that I give her but that's not much). She also eats carrot, banana (I don't give her much of it or often and I rotate. If she is dying, then why leave her without her favorite food?)
I am not sure if she poops at all. It cooled down for a few days, I try disturb them as little as i can. They poop in the yard and in cardboard boxes with hay, it's not easy to separate new poop from the poop that was made couple of days ago (in the litter box) and her poop from Paul's poop. I find some microscopic poops that are most likely her recent poop (no wonder she is not pooping because she is not eating). Not sure if she eats grass, I am not next to them 100% of time. 
The vet suggested that we do exploratory surgery trying to remove as much as we can, and he gave me an estimate which is over $1000 (that I don't have at the time). He also said that ultrasound would be helpful to determine location of the tumor; if it's in vital organs like liver, the surgery won't help at all.
Today I fed her critical care and did sub q fluids, then I picked he up wrapped in a towel to put her on the floor but she was so quiet in my arms, eyes closed, breathing slightly detectable, that I sat holding her for some time, she was asleep and weak, and I didn't want to disturb her.
I really don't know what to do. Am I making her suffer longer by feeding her and doing what I am doing?


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## Popsicles (Jun 23, 2018)

This is a really hard decision that unfortunately is only for you to make. You know your pet best, and you know whether she is having a positive experience in life. If she isnt having any happy moments in her day, it might be getting close to the time it would be kinder to say goodbye. I am so sorry that you are having to make this decision, sending you both all my love x


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## Thumperina (Jun 24, 2018)

thank you Popsicle
Today she was eating some grass in the yard, but again, probably not much. Ate a little bit of romaine lettuce. I can hear gurgling sounds in her stomach, that must be gas. I thought that medications I give her probably slowing her gut even more... I give meloxidyl (which needs to be continued of course), baytril (does it need to be continued? what are we treating with it?), critical care, simethicone on occasion. 
If her stomach is not very full, is it a good course of meds? I already lost a track what does what.


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## Popsicles (Jun 24, 2018)

That’s nice to hear she is at least a bit interested in food  baytril is a really safe antibiotic for rabbits. I wouldn’t be very worried about it at this point - I’m not too sure why we are giving it, since I’m not sure what the infection is? But if your vet has prescribed it I would carry on. It won’t do any harm, and h suppose it will at least prevent secondary infections. 
I think the benefits of the other meds far outweigh the risks, especially in her fragile state I wouldn’t want to change anything.


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## squidpop (Jun 25, 2018)

Does she drink water on her own? I she doesn't I would syringe feed some electrolyte water solution to hydrate her really well inbetween feedings. Intestines don't work unless well hydrated. 

—also I know someone who was treating a rabbit for a UTI because but it turned out she had uterine cancer and that i why they saw some blood.


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## JBun (Jun 26, 2018)

I'm so sorry about your bun. Hopefully you can find a way to help keep her comfortable for however much longer she is with you. I will say that if it were my rabbit and she was struggling to have a good quality of life, I would certainly consider the pts option, though I know it's never an easy decision.


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## Thumperina (Jun 26, 2018)

Thank you all. No she never drank any water at all. They used to get water from grass and veggies, I guess. Right now gets sub q fluids under her skin. She tries to refuse critical care, too ( she doesn't eat it with appetite), sometimes if she really resisting i dont insist. I can hear gas in her tummy. 
Anybody have any experience doing surgeries to a bunny with cancer?


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## Popsicles (Jun 26, 2018)

I know it can be possibel to remove the affected uterus, but I would be worried that it has been there so long that it is likely to have spread, so the operation would be a lot to go through for it not to help. I would also worry that she is not very well, quite fragile and off her food etc anyway, so how would she fare recovering from anaesthesia? 
What does your vet think?


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## Thumperina (Jun 26, 2018)

the vet is ready to give it a try, he has $$$ in his eyes, and he has nothing to loose (but gain $$$). I am pretty sure that I would have to sign a paper that in case she dies, it will be considered inevitable and I still have to pay in full, right?


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## Popsicles (Jun 26, 2018)

Just to be clear, Vets don’t make as much money out of procedures as you think - once the price of anaesthetic equipment and drugs is worked out they really don’t earn that much. So I wouldn’t worry so much that they are just money grabbing - most in my profession join to improve animal welfare, not to make money. And most are also very sad to lose their patients, so they won’t take unnecessary risks.
You will have to sign a paper stating that you acknowledge the risks involved, which should be fully explained to you beforehand. You will still have to pay in full, unless the death is due to veterinary negligence (e.g. making a terrible mistake), but if it is due to an acknowledged risk infortunately you will still have to pay.
(This is in the UK - I assume the process is the same/similar in the US)


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## Bunny gurl (Jun 27, 2018)

I don't want to interrupt your conversation first off let me tell you how truly saddened and sorry I am for you this is one of the hardest things to deal with when you have bunnies dogs cats etc have so much medical treatment and procedures to help them. I just wanted to try to you asking anyone with experience with buns and C yes unfortunately I have had to do this before twice 2 of my home grown babies sisters actually both had it and I am not sure what you want to know about but I am gonna tell you if I had to do it again I would definitely let them go earlier then I did I did it thinking it was for them but thinking back by this point how much quality is left I believe none of they can't enjoy grass or the free time playing no more binkys or coming hopping to their human looking for head scratches then its time to let her go I know it hurts and I held on hoping every day we would wake up and a miracle they recovered overnight but they didn't and they wouldn't have I know we do it with good intentions but they are not even thriving now and they can't enjoy anything that they once had. She is in pain and she would not be upset if you set her free to hop and binky over rainbow bridge she knows you did everything and more for her and she is grateful but she would Thank you if now you did 1 last thing and set her free of her pain she can't escape it unless you help her she will just suffer till her body can't go on. She will be free again to play and eat all the lush green grass she can and she will never forget what a great mom she has down here and will be waiting to see you someday up there believe me it is incredibly freaking hard to do but she says it's ok and she has had enough pain.
I laid both my girls to rest together the same day and they looked so peaceful as they drifted.away together I know now I did the right thing for them as I sit here typing this sobbing remembering how hard it was you are strong you have.already shown it by doing what you have done for her till now just one.more thing to be strong for her and all of us rabbit lovers are.here for you and are behind.you through it.... I'm sorry about.going on but people dont realize.sometimes how difficult it is to make that step and I know that having someone else behind.you with a decision like this makes it a little easier to face.
Look her in the eyes and she will tell you it time and its.ok.


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## Bunny gurl (Jun 27, 2018)

Again I am sorry to intrude on your conversation but I wanted you.to know you.are not alone.


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## Popsicles (Jun 27, 2018)

I don’t think you’re intruding at all and I complete relate with what you’re saying, you’ve made some really good points and you are very right that prolonging life is not always the best option. I’m sorry about your own buns too <3


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## Thumperina (Jun 27, 2018)

I think I need to increase her sub q fluids intake, since she is not eating veggies or very little. Could someone tell me how much of fluids it's safe to give? I find some cecatropes of her and they are small and dry. I m giving her 50 ml twice a day and I think she needs more hydration 
Is it safe to treat her with Revolution in her state? they still go out when not very hot, it's useful for her since she can eat grass. it's been almost a month since they were treated. I at least don't see any ticks on them


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## Thumperina (Jun 27, 2018)

Bunny girl thank you. Right now, I am trying to see if we could possibly do more diagnostics to see if a surgery could be an option.


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## Thumperina (Jun 27, 2018)

it's hard when we don't know vets very well. yesterday I spent 2 hours at the vet clinic that has a vet that sees bunnies, and they have an ultrasound, to just find out that the vet that is responsible for ultrasound is a different one (the one who doesn't "see" bunnies) and she said she hasn't done an ultrasound on a single rabbit ! good thing I talked to them before I brought my poor girl and paid them !


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## Thumperina (Jun 28, 2018)

Right now everything is pending because my kiddo is departing to camp in a couple of days. We are busy buying some stuff, washing, packing, and so on. I can't make any important decisions until this event is out of the way. 
I've lost Thumperina's daughter FooFoo last November. She seemed to be the healthiest out of all, I have never had any problems with her. I still don't know what it was, she just stopped eating and I didn't catch it early enough since they were spending a lot of time in the yard (where it's hard to monitor poop) and are fed all together (hard to monitor who is eating, who isn't). When I realized she wasn't well, and was going to take her to a vet, it was too late - she passed overnight. It could have been cancer or something else (but obviously she passed from stasis)
Would just stop force-feeding Thumperina be too cruel? of course, I would never stop giving her pain medication.

Rabbits on my avatar are not my remaining alive Thumperina and Paul but they look exactly the same: she is fawn, he is broken white. I don't know why I think I should mention it.


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## doodlebugger (Jun 28, 2018)

I'm so sorry you are going through this! Our little Brie was really sick a while back, and we were told she had a tumor in her uterus, and that the very rabbit savvy vet could try to remove it with surgery, but that once she got in there, if she determined it was too severe, she would just put her to sleep. The charges would cover whatever anesthesia and other expenses they incurred up to that point. However, when she got in there, she had pyometra which is a type of infection in the uterus. We felt really bad that we didn't have her spayed early on after hearing this. However, she was overweight and our vet was concerned with doing the surgery until we could get her weight down. What we didn't know, was that part of the reason she was so heavy and bloated was because of this. We should have had her spayed really early on when we first got her and we could have spared us all the problems. Thankfully in our case, our Brie's uterus had contained everything and there was no sign of anything else when the tests came back. She did go through a bout of pneumonia not long after, but she is doing very well these days. 

In my opinion, if you want to let her go, it is better to have the vet put her to sleep. Don't let her starve to death. And if you cannot deal with her health issues, don't have the time or money to invest in her care, or you don't want to put her to sleep, consider contacting a rescue in your state or a nearby state. Some rescues will have more resources to take in rabbits like this and give them medical care. Our vet works with a rescue who would do this if an owner wanted to surrender their rabbit for any of those reasons.

Have you checked to see if there are any rabbit savvy vets or exotic vets that are within a reasonable drive from you? I wouldn't treat her with Revolution if she is that sick, but that's just my opinion, and I would definitely ask a vet's opinion over mine. How hot is it getting there? I know we are going to be near 100 over the weekend. I would not even consider keeping a rabbit outdoors if it's over 80 and humid. Even if you put a fan on them, frozen water bottles, etc., they can get dehydrated way too fast. 

Again, I'm so sorry you are going through this, but consider putting her to sleep if you feel like she is not getting better and you don't want to put her through surgery. No need for her to suffer. Before I considered that, I would try hard to find a rabbit savvy vet to get better answers, and then consider a rabbit rescue. Everyone has to do what they feel is right though, and what I think could be different from what other people think.


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## Popsicles (Jun 28, 2018)

It’s reallt hard that you gave this going on on top of everything else, I really feel for you. And finding a good rabbit vet can be really hard, especially in some areas! 
re fluids: we are taught at uni that basic fluid intake should be 50ml/kg/day, I can’t remember how much she weighs? But could potentially give more? 
Re Vets: I’m confused as to why the rabbit vet cant ultrasound - that is a day one competence skill. And the “ultrasound vet” should be able to recognise and ultrasound a uterus in a rabbit - abdominal anatomy is much the same as a dog or cat apart from the addition of the caecum. 
Re stopping feeding: I agree with doodle bigger that if you decide that you don’t wish to prolong her life anymore it would be much kinder to have a vet put her to sleep than let her starve and suffer. Of course, thats a personal choice that only you can make. 
Bless you I do really feel for you at this time and find myself thinking about Thumperina and Paul often


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## Thumperina (Jun 28, 2018)

thank you all. 
I have been thinking about what Bunny girl said. I think I should be able to do this last favor to her.. if I am not late. Today I stopped at the vet who saw her last time and it's a short drive, to ask about PTS (for details). I also read more about it.
However, tomorrow I take my kiddo to camp in the morning 3 hours each way (for me). there is no way to avoid it. 
Answering about them being outside: the reason why I take them out, weather permitting, is because it is their usual habitat, and since she doesn't eat anything indoors, grass outdoors is her only food for the day (except some critical care). Yes, its real hot here and their only time outside is from 6 to 9am when it's bearable. When inside, she sits like she doesn't even recognize anything. This morning, outside, I saw her eyes brightened up for awhile. I saw her eating some grass. 
However, I have a feeling I can be late to give her this last favor. Today she doesn't tolerate me do anything with her. She jumps down from our treating station, even though its rather high from the floor, and then runs around like crazy for some time. Foofoo was running like this just before she passed. I wasn't able to give her evening fluids. I gave her metacam though but I don't think it helps with her pain. I fed her little critical care earlier but not this evening. 
we need prayers.


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## Thumperina (Jun 28, 2018)

Today I contacted another "bunny" vet that was recommended by somebody. I found her on facebook and sent her a message. I asked if she dealt with cancer in rabbits and if she had any experience with surgeries to remove affected tissues. this is what she replied
"I am sorry to hear about your bunny. I have surgically explored bunnies to see if a tumor was removable before but so far my experience is that the masses tend to be wrapped around too many critical structures for it to be feasible. The chances of success are lower because of her doing poorly now. I’m afraid I cannot offer you much hope and certainly no guarantees improvement. We are not able to offer in home euthanasia at this time unfortunately. I’m very sorry"


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## Popsicles (Jun 29, 2018)

I’m sorry to hear that she is fighting the medication etc, we can hope that it is because she is strong rather than the end. 
That is sad that the vet won’t be able to help you, but I agree that she is probably too unwell at the moment to go under anaesthesia, I said the same a few messages ago. I would think the cancer has been there too long now for it to really help her. 
You’re doing all the right things and I appreciate you’re trying so hard to help her - she will appreciate it too. I have my fingers crossed for you


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## Thumperina (Jun 29, 2018)

My friends, my sweet Thumperina crossed the Rainbow bridge to be with her husband Snowball and her daugher FooFoo. 
Last night I didn't have much sleep because of all the hassle finishing packing, taking care of the sick pet and so on; I sleep in the same large room where my buns are housed while its been hot. In the early morning I saw that she's been sitting by my bed all this time. We got up very early, I had to drive my kiddo to another city 3 hours away so that she could catch her flight. The trip took my much longer than just 6 hours with traffic, going inside the airport and trying to fix a problem when I didn't pay while exiting toll road because I misunderstood some signs. My husband was taking care of the pets this morning. I also have cockatiel birds. 
All this time on the way back I was thinking that I needed to PTS my girl. By the time I got back home, I was rather exhausted or maybe a chicken inside of me spoke up... I was just happy to see all my pets at home when I got back at about 3pm. The vet closes at 6... I thought it was too much for one day to handle, then about 4ish the kiddo wanted to communicate when she arrived to a several million city airport and needed assistance with getting her luggage and finding her way there. Closer to 6pm, I understood that I can't postpone Thumperina too long. Not over the weekend. I gave them a call and made arrangements that we drop in tomorrow on Saturday during their working hours to ease her pain. 
But it happened faster than I helped her. Her body just wasn't able to carry on any longer. 
I regret that too many excuses got in the way for me to give her final favor to ease her pain... But I also had to be there for my human kiddo. 
Not sure how Paul will carry on... I put her body next to him so that he can say good bye. For how long should I leave her there? 
Good bye my sweet Thumperina. Binky free and no more pain.


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## Thumperina (Jun 29, 2018)

I just checked on Paul. thankfully, he didn't move away from her body. He is next to her. I don't think he is grooming her but he is still there, with her. What is a right thing - to remove her body after how long?


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## Popsicles (Jun 30, 2018)

Oh I am so sorry for you, even when we know it’s coming it doesn’t make it any easier  sometimes it’s nicer to know they made the choice to let go, and she was on pain medication etc so she probably just fell asleep.
I’m not too sure about how long to leave her with Paul, once he moves away from her and has closure I suppose? And keep an eye on him a while after, give him lots of cuddles and fuss.
Binky free thunperina <3


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## Thumperina (Jun 30, 2018)

thank you Popsicles
No she didn't just fall asleep. Death is always the hardest event of the life. The main struggle. Every time when I read "died instantly", I think "how lucky", even though it still leaves people devastated
I was thinking before she was gone if there are stronger pain meds that could be given. but of course, if there is a need in narcotics, then why would such animal need to stay alive...its easier to end suffering, but I failed to do it. I wasn't even home when it happened. I went to the grocery store, stupidly thinking that if I get new good smelling veggies, she would eat some. 
I was wondering how ptc goes.. are they trying to escape, being anxious, do they need to be restrained. I have a feeling my girl wouldn't just surrender. I think she would give a fight and it would be very hard. 
another thing I was thinking about - there is pts option for pets with cancer but no option for people with cancer.. (I think in rare cases they can approve euthanasia though)


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## Thumperina (Jun 30, 2018)

She was ready to be gone a month ago when she declined after months of acting normal. But I just prolonged her suffering to the high extent by my "treatments". I know several of your were telling me about it.


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## Thumperina (Jun 30, 2018)

Thumperina in December. She was probably already sick.


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## Popsicles (Jun 30, 2018)

You’re absolutely right that pts can be really stressful, especially for a bunny like thumperina who didn’t want to be handled. It was probably kinder for her that she made her own choice to go instead of being restrained etc. You definitely werent wrong in giving her treatments to make her feel better - the extra time she had was spent with her bunny friend, and being able to chill out and eat something yummy outside. She knew when it was time to go, and she sounds so stubborn that I doubt you could have changed her mind! What an amazing bunny, and I know it’s so sad she is gone, but you need to feel comfort in the fact you did sooooo much to help her - you’re a fantastic bunny parent and she is so lucky she had you. What a littler sweetheart in that picture <3


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## JBun (Jul 1, 2018)

I'm so sorry she's gone. Pts is one of the hardest things trying to determine for me cause I'm always hoping there's a solution to getting them well again. So I completely understand. It does sound like being able to pass away in her home was the best and least stressful thing for her. RIP little bun.


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## Thumperina (Jul 2, 2018)

Thank you Popsicles and JBun.
The evening she passed, I was about go to the vet to ask for some stronger pain killer (before their close time), so you can guess her final hours weren't peaceful at all. When she was seen earlier in June, the vet mentioned several ways we could handle her situation, and I am recalling he was mentioning narcotic pain control or even palliative/hospice care.
I shouldn't have gotten her to the point when her problems became so bad. Seems like she chose to be gone when she refused to be eating in May, well she would die from stasis which is for sure no fun, but at the end of June she had all sorts of other problems + finally stasis. I have a feeling that meloxidyl I was squeezing into her mouth was staying in her mouth without getting into her stomach and bloodstream. I tried to give it the same time as critical care, but at the end she didn't eat critical care well.
I hope she is in bunny heaven where the weather is always great and lots of delicious things to eat and she re-united with her deceased loved ones.
I remember the four of them were sitting under the deck on a warm day probably in April and I brought some dandelion flowers for them. They were so cute, sitting in a row: one brown rabbit, one broken white, another brown and then another broken white. I should have a picture I took back then because of how very cute they were with dandelion flowers in front of them. but I am not sure how to find it.
Even though she was very independent and stubborn, she was gentle at the same time. Never bit me, even towards the end. Usually when she didn't like me to mess with her, she would bite me very slightly and then lick me.
She let us treat her when she had a bad case of fly strike (recalling buying manuka honey $50/jar and taking her to laser therapy - my mom suggested she should mail me a hammer). Ticks I removed from her ears using lice comb that we have from time my kiddo had lice. She was a mom once, long ago, and she was a great one! never harmed any of her kits and took a good care of them. She gave birth in an underground burrow in the yard and we didn't learn about them until probably 3 weeks of age! (this is when FooFoo and Paul were born, and they were so very cute, they were smaller than my palm)
But now her time is over. Good bye my sweet Thumperina. Love you and miss you.


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