# Bloat symptoms?



## Zeroshero (May 8, 2013)

Hi, I am glad I found your forum I have a orphaned bunny I have been feeding since he was approximately 7 days old, he was taken from a cat, then discarded in a trash can so human intervention was a must. I followed the Dr Dana Kremple's protocol for feeding orphaned domestic rabbits to the T. In spite of my efforts nearly four weeks ago Zero developed enteritis. He was on a 14 day course of Baytril,Gentamicin (10 days) and Flagyl (10 days) it has been 8 days since his last dose of antibiotics and he seems to be doing very well. My concern is my vet is having me weigh him twice a day stating that sudden weight gain/ loss is an indicator of bloat. Is this true? I am not sure that I have read that information anywhere online. Am I making myself crazy weighing him and worrying for nothing. I weaned him at day 45 which is much earlier than I planned to because he was eating too much solids then would still eat his formula until he made himself miserable and his tummy extremely taut.

Here is the list of what he is getting:
Currently gets .25 ml of Simethicone 3 x daily
Critical Care 1/4 TSP mixed with 3 parts water 3 x daily
Benebac 1/2 gram every other day
2 TBS of Oxbow Young Rabbit Pellets (1TBS am and 1TBS pm)
His pellets are limited to encourage hay consumption. 
He is eating approximately 1 cup of Orchard Grass and one cup of Timothy Hay

I have never had to force this boy to eat anything! He is still playfull, pooping normally, but he has days like today where within 12 hours he will gain weight in excess of 15grams. I am not exactly sure of his breed but I am guessing he is perhaps a New Zealand or dilute Californian (he has some gray in his tail and the tips of his ears). I know NZW rabbits are bred for meat, is this a logical explanation for his weight gain averaging around 100g a week?

As I am typing this he has just finished zooming around his cage (after two hours play time) and nibbling on more hay. Should I be concerned about the weight as much or are there more serious signs I should be looking for? 

Please help, I have been fretting over this bunny for six weeks!


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## Zeroshero (May 8, 2013)

Included is a list of his weights the last 4 days: (he is approximately 6 weeks old)
May 3 
400g @ 4:30a
410g @ 5:30p

May 4 
412g @ 5:30a
431g @ 10:00p

May5
435g @ 5:30a
441g @ 7:30p

May 6
435g @ 5:30a
442g @ 7:00p

May 7 
449g @ 5:00a
464g @ 6:30p 
476g @ 10:00p

Thank you for your help


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## JBun (May 8, 2013)

Young rabbits gain a ton of weight when in their growing phase, and it can seem like it happens overnight. My bunnies would nearly double in size in a weeks time. So that could easily explain the weight gain. I've never heard of telling a rabbit has bloat by weight fluctuations, not saying that it's not a possibility though. But I've always gone by behavior changes and changes in a rabbits poop and peeing, to be able to tell if something is wrong with my rabbits. A rabbit in pain is going to have very noticable changes of behavior, and if a rabbit has true bloat, that rabbit is going to be in severe pain. Behavior changes could be sitting hunched up and not moving much for long periods of time, changing positions frequently to find a position of comfort such as laying down and immediately getting back up repeatedly, squinting its eyes, grinding its teeth, not eating, not pooping or changes in poop, loud stomach gurgling. All these are pretty good indications of there being something wrong with a rabbit. You would usually see one or more of these signs if your rabbit is experiencing gas pains. Bloat would be even more apparent, just by looking at the belly and seeing severe distention. Chances are if your bunny is zooming around playing, and is eating and pooping normally, he isn't having gas pains, and definitely doesn't have bloat.

I'm curious as to why you are feeding him critical care and simethicone on a daily basis, if he appears to be eating fine on his own? Does he have ongoing gas problems that he needs the simethicone every day?


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## missyscove (May 8, 2013)

Hi there and welcome to RO!

I'm not familiar with changes in weight being a sign of bloat either, but that doesn't mean its wrong. The first signs I'd look for are an uncomfortable rabbit who doesn't want to eat. 

I'm also curious why he's getting critical care if he's eating pellets on his own (it would make sense if you were after the probiotics that used to be in critical care but the newer bags don't have added bacteria and he's also getting bene bac). By 6 weeks most rabbits are weaned and should be eating solid food on their own. If he's willing to eat the pellets and is getting plenty of fluids, I don't see why he'd need critical care.


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## Zeroshero (May 8, 2013)

Good morning and thank you for the replies, I believe my vets intentions were not to make any diet changes for at least two weeks passed the cessation of antibiotics. His follow up is this Monday. He has always had a bit of a belly, that is his normal, he also has reoccurring gas at times that is audible and in the past I would stroke him it is almost like popping bubble wrap. If I can figure out how to post a photo today I will upload a pic of "the belly". He ate lots of hay last night and was still knocking down the barn doors for his Critical Care and pellets this morning. 

I do have a concern, last night while he was out playing he urinated in a corner and it seemed to be a dark orange, it wasn't cloudy. Should I give him some hydrolyte to encourage him to drink more? 

Thank you for all your replies and for giving me some peace of mind, when the vet said his prognosis was still "fair" I nearly cried.


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## Zeroshero (May 8, 2013)

Thank you for the welcome. I figured out how to upload an image, this is Zero flopped in his hammock. He has since grown quite a bit but it is basically what his belly always looks like, it is not firm, I am constantly checking to see if there are any changes.


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## Nancy McClelland (May 8, 2013)

Very cute. Doesn't sound like the urine is anything to be concerned over. Some of ours have the same coloring with no problems. We had a couple that were very chalky and dried white and flaky--sign of too much calcium, so we watched the veggies they get very closely.


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## JBun (May 8, 2013)

Urine color can change with rabbits, depending on what they are eating, so the color of it sounds normal to me, unless you notice he isn't drinking, then you may have to syringe him some water.

He looks like a sweet little guy, and very comfy in his hammock  But the the belly is bloated looking, right, it's hard to tell if it's just the way he is laying in the hammock? And this is normal for him? I have a suggestion to make with his diet? Rabbits have a very sensitive digestive system, some much more sensitive than others. Certain foods can cause problems for some rabbits, and too many carbs and sugars can upset the balance of digestive flora. Pellets, and even critical care, have sugars and grains added to them. That can cause an overgrowth of bad bacteria and digestive problems for some rabbits. You see this sometimes with baby bunnies as they are starting on solid foods. They'll start nibbling on mom's pellets and the sudden introduction of the new food with the carbs in it, can cause GI problems, and they can get a poopy butt, or even more serious digestive upset. I brought home a new rabbit last year. He wasn't used to people and got really stressed, and ended up with GI stasis. I had to syringe feed him for 2 weeks until his eating and pooping was back to normal. But as I was starting to get him back on pellets, he would start to get GI stasis again. This happened a couple more times. I noticed that after he would eat his pellets, that he was squinting and laying down differently than normal. He just didn't look like he was comfortable. So I thought that the pellets were probably causing the ongoing digestive problems for him, so I stopped pellets and just fed hay. After that he didn't have anymore problems with gas or GI stasis. He is now on a diet of timothy hay, some alfalfa hay, and certain leafy green veggies. So for him, it was the pellets, more specifically the sugars and carbs in the pellets, that were causing the digestive upset for him. So with your rabbit having such difficult digestive upset, and such obvious stomach distension and gas problems, you may want to try taking him off pellets and just feeding him grass hay for a few days to see if it makes any difference with the gas and stomach distension. Stopping the critical care as well, is up to you and something that you can discuss with your vet if you want. For my rabbit it even got to the point were I could tell that syringe feeding him critical care was also causing some digestive upset, so I can no longer even use that with him. But at least try stopping the pellets to see if that helps and makes a difference for your rabbit. I don't know if you feed treats, but if you do, stop all sugary starchy treats too(carrots, grains, fruit, etc). You will also need to give him unlimited non grain grass hay. He will be eating more hay since he isn't getting pellets. I think stopping the pellets may make a difference for him, it certainly did with my rabbit. If you don't see any difference, then just make sure to gradually reintroduce the pellets, and don't just suddenly put them back in his diet. If you do see a difference, then you will know the sugars and carbs are the cause of the problem, and that your rabbit won't be able to have these things in his diet, maybe forever, maybe just til he's older. If the pellets end up being the problem and he's not getting pellets anymore, you may need to introduce other things into his diet, as grass hay doesn't have enough protein or calcium, for growing rabbits especially. You could get some alfalfa hay, but it needs to be introduced very gradually as it can cause digestive upset if introduced too quickly, and can cause some digestive problems for some rabbits. So you want to start with a very tiny amount and look for any signs of upset. If he seems ok with it, then you can gradually increase the amount. You will also need to start introducing some veggies at some point, as he needs the added nutrition since he won't be getting pellets. Usually it's best to wait til they are at least 12 weeks old, but you may need to start sooner since he won't have pellets in his diet. Veggies are introduced the same way as alfalfa hay, gradually and starting one veggie at a time in small amounts, and keeping an eye out for digestive upset. But one thing at a time. First try eliminating pellets and see if that makes any difference. If it does, then once he is doing and feeling better, then you can slowly start introducing the alfalfa(and maybe veggies) into his diet, one thing at a time. But you want to give the diet of grass hay a few days, and make sure that he has improved, that he is doing better, before trying to introduce anything new into his diet.


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## Zeroshero (May 8, 2013)

Thank you so much for your reply, when he first started experimenting with solids I was giving him alfalfa leafs I picked out of the bag. He got diahhrea soon after so I quickly removed fresh alfalfa from his diet. I gradually added and increased his Oxbow Young Rabbit pellets which he "seemed" to be tolerating. He gets unlimited Orchard Grass and Timothy Hay. I will email my vet and ask her about taking him off the Critical Care (which he LOVES! I am sure he will not be a happy guy ) We will also have to discuss a diet that perhaps does not contain any alfalfa, is that possible with a young bun? 

"The Belly" is not an illusion because of the hammock, it almost always looks like that. 

Thank you again for your advice


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## JBun (May 8, 2013)

Pellets can sometimes take days, weeks, months, to change the gut environment, which will eventually cause problems as the gut bacteria slowly gets out of balance. So you may not always see an immediate change or reaction to feeding them. The best way to know if pellets are causing problems is to first eliminate them, then look for changes over the next few days, if you can't tell if it's helping then next try eliminating the critical care. Once you are only feeding the grass hay, you will be able to tell if it was the pellets and/or critical care causing the digestive upset. It very well could be that your rabbit has problems with alfalfa and not the carbs or sugars. There is alfalfa in the young rabbit pellets, so if eliminating them from his diet fixes his digestive problems, yet he is still able to tolerate the critical care(which is made with timothy hay) then you will know that maybe it was the alfalfa in the pellets that was causing the problem and not the carbs and sugars. If this is the case, you may be able to try slowly introducing the timothy based adult pellets into his diet, once he seems to be doing well. He wouldn't be getting as much protein from the timothy based pellets as he would from alfalfa based pellets, but when a rabbit has a sensitivity to a particular food, you just have to do the best you can to feed them things that won't make them sick, but still try to get the rabbit the nutrients that it needs. 

I would be more inclined to start with eliminating the pellets, as they seem to me to be the most likely possible cause of the digestive upset. First, because they contain more sugars and carbs than the critical care, but also that they contain alfalfa which your rabbit has shown a possible sensitivity to in the past. Once you've eliminated the pellets, if you don't see an improvement or just a minimal one, then you could try eliminating the critical care as well. But if you see immediate complete improvement with the elimination of the pellets, and he is still doing ok being fed the critical care, then I would think that it could very likely be the alfalfa in the pellets causing the problem. And that would mean that once he is feeling completely better, you could probably try introducing the timothy based adult pellets to him. But if you try that, do it very very gradually, like just starting out with 2 little pieces 2x a day, for several days, and just watch for any negative reaction. If you don't see any signs of it causing upset, then each day you could add a couple more pieces. I tried this with my rabbit that has the GI issues, just to see if he could tolerate pellets again. Over about a months time, I very gradually increased the amounts. After a month he was up to 1 tbsp twice a day, and that's when I noticed that he was feeling uncomfortable. So I knew that he just couldn't have pellets anymore. But increasing slowly gives their digestive system time to adjust to the changes, but also gives you time to notice any possible digetive upset, without it being a sudden severe upset, which is what would occur if a new food was suddenly introduced in too large of an amount, and the rabbit had a sensitivity to it. So I always introduce new foods slowly and steadily. It is hard though, to try and figure out what is causing the problem. I really hope you are able to figure it out and help this little guy. He seems happy despite all his troubles.


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## Zeroshero (May 8, 2013)

Thankfully today I was able to present the question about weight as an indicator of bloat and this was his response: 
Hi, In my opinion, it is really just part of a much bigger picture that needs to be looked at when evaluating for gastrointestinal issues. Weight can change quite dramatically in an animal that age, so I often am more concerned about how well they are eating and pooping and what their general attitude and activity level is. If you have not checked a stool sample to make sure there are no internal parasites like coccidian, this is something I would do right away in a young little one having some GI issues.

Zero has had two fecal's both of which were negative.

I guess I will not ever stop worrying because it didn't lessen even after hearing Dr K at Oxbow's opinion.


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## Zeroshero (May 8, 2013)

Zero's tummy tonight, he is eating, drinking plenty of water, giving lots of kisses, and zooming around every where. I took a few shots of him playing, does he look normal for a bunny his age? Is his belly actually normal? It is not hard at all and not overly squishy. Other question, what breed do you think he is? His nose is green from the Critical Care I haven't cleaned him up yet this evening.


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## Zeroshero (May 8, 2013)

My apologies here are the images


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## valaria243 (May 9, 2013)

He looks like my rescue bunny which I named Binky! 
Zero's appearance looks normal to me as he looks quite like Binky. My Binks tends to carry most of his weight in his belly/hind quarters. My bunny was tiny when I got him as well and he has really increased in size in a fairly short amount of time. However, having had a doe which raised a litter of 9 babies I can tell you that is quite normal. When I first got Binky (2 months ago) he fit in my hand and now it would take 4 or 5 hands to "fit" him. 
I agree with the other advice that the best way to tell if something is wrong is to look at his posture and eating/pooping habits. If he has been zipping around and eating normally then I would say he is doing good.


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## majorv (May 9, 2013)

Zero does look like he may be a New Zealand mix. If he has faint points on his feet/ears then he may have some Californian too. Both are considered meat rabbits and will have a "full loin"...ie, rounded hindquarters and thick body. 

We use to have Cals and my daughter showed meat pens. At 70 days old they were supposed to weigh, ideally, close to 5 lbs. I remember that their weight gain at between 6-10 weeks of age was about 6-8 ounces per week. It might be that your little guy could also be mixed with a smaller breed and, to, his early difficulties probably would put him behind what his normal weight would be for his age.


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## tonyshuman (May 9, 2013)

I think he's a bit stunted in growth maybe. Baby bunnies usually do have bigger bellies, like puppies do, but he looks a bit out of proportion, even for a young bun. Maybe it has to do with the big belly, maybe it has to do with poor nutrition before you got him. It's possible he just didn't get good food early on for his bone development to catch up with his ear size and soft tissue development. This is just an arbitrary, non-expert assessment of his body shape, however. I have a cali that I knew as a baby, and he and his brothers were less spindly in the limbs and a bit smaller in the body, with similar ear to eye-size. I am just thinking ears and eyes don't grow a lot. If he's eating ok, I would keep it up until he's a bit older and maybe evens out in proportions a bit. You might consider dropping the critical care and free-feeding the young rabbit pellets.


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## Zeroshero (May 9, 2013)

Thank you! That is very helpful he is averaging between 90-100 grams a week which is about 3.5 ounces. I read somewhere that male NZW's should be closer to 1000 grams by six weeks and he hasn't come anywhere near that. Today he is 467 grams. 

Tonyshuman, he has been syrenge fed since he was 7 days old, he developed mucoid enteritis at 14 days old he saw the vet, he told me to take two critical ingredients from his formula (colostrum and heavy cream) he then became hypoglycemic. I returned home from work one evening just in time. His nose was blue he had his head thrust back and he was laying laterally shivering. It was very dramatic! I have had the same experience with a kitten that I was bottle feeding and he was always smaller than his brother. I decided not to listen to the vets orders especially after him spending five minutes trying to convince me Zero is an albino Eastern Cottontail! Anyway i followed Dr Kremple's protocol for colostrum and added that back in but not the heavy cream which is probably the missing link. Two weeks later Zero developed diarrhea and another bout with enteritis and a new specialist later. We are almost two weeks past his last dose of antibiotics and so far so good. Dare I think he is out of the woods. He has gone through so much in his life already!


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## Zeroshero (May 9, 2013)

He has had two fecals and both have been negative for bacteria/parasites.  I hand raised four orphaned pinky squirrels and I don't recall them being near as much work as this one little bunny!


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## JBun (May 10, 2013)

That's so cute! What a lucky little bun he is  I think you've done really well, especially with the hard start this little guy has had. Because of his digestive problems, he may always be a little stunted growthwise. But as long as he is healthy and isn't boney, being smaller than normal isn't going to matter that much.

I just have a question about when you tried to feed him the alfalfa. Was it fresh alfalfa, or was it dried alfalfa hay? I'm just wondering because fresh and dried can actually make a difference in how well it's tolerated.

Albino eastern cottontail, really? I hope that's not a real rabbit vet saying that.


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## missyscove (May 10, 2013)

Zeroshero said:


> Thankfully today I was able to present the question about weight as an indicator of bloat and this was his response:
> Hi, In my opinion, it is really just part of a much bigger picture that needs to be looked at when evaluating for gastrointestinal issues. Weight can change quite dramatically in an animal that age, so I often am more concerned about how well they are eating and pooping and what their general attitude and activity level is. If you have not checked a stool sample to make sure there are no internal parasites like coccidian, this is something I would do right away in a young little one having some GI issues.
> 
> Zero has had two fecal's both of which were negative.
> ...




I've been to several lectures by Dr. Kholes and I really like him. He's a great guy and he knows his stuff!


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## Zeroshero (May 10, 2013)

Yes it was an Exotics Vet and I wasn't impressed, two weeks later the vet at the emergency clinic kept referring to him as a "wild bunny" also. Anyway I won't burn that bridge though because he is the only guy open Saturday and Sunday and the emergency clinics are worthless! I bought bagged alfalfa and put a small pinch of alfalfa flakes in with his orchard grass, the same vet suggested that I go outside and just pick handfuls up from outside (I have 1000lb rabbits too) because the bacteria would be good for him.


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## JBun (May 10, 2013)

I tried feeding a little fresh alfalfa to a little bunny I got that wouldn't eat rabbit pellets. It upset her stomach til the next day. But dried alfalfa hay I haven't had problems when I introduce it in small amounts. I'm not sure why fresh causes more problems than feeding dried.


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## Zeroshero (May 10, 2013)

I believe alfalfa is the culprit, Zero's tummy felt fine until he ate a TBSP of pellets now his tummy is round and spongy. He just got done eating some Critical Care he will get a dose of Simethicone and spend a few hours playing in the bathroom. What do you guys think of Mazuri it is a Timothy based pellet that is labeled for "all life stages"?


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## JBun (May 11, 2013)

That's probably nice to know that maybe you've found what's causing the upset. If you stop feeding the pellets, try and see how he does after feeding the critical care. If he seems ok after having it, it's a good indication that timothy based pellets will probably be ok for him. I looked at the Mazuri pellets and they seem pretty good. I'm not sure about the beet pulp, but everything else looked good. Oxbows ingredients are pretty similar too, with just a few differences, so either one may work out ok for your bun.


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## Zeroshero (May 11, 2013)

After I posted about Mazuri I asked myself why I would change brands. He's an Oxbow bunny down to the litter in his cage. Is it just his size that will be compromised by getting less protein? He never has an adverse reaction to Critical Care and is eating more timothy hay over the orchard grass. I am worried, will his GI always be so sensitive or will it eventually get better as he ages?

He was pooping, playing, eating, and drinking. His tummy seems to have gone down. I just reorganized his cage, he is well traveled, and nothing stays the same. He was rolling his big block around and running through his tunnel. I love it when my bunny is happy and I especially love the sound of little nibbles on his hay before I fall asleep then I know the little Mr is okay for today.


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## JBun (May 11, 2013)

It's hard to know if he'll continue to be sensitive to certain foods or not. I guess it depends on any permanent damage done. But I would think that the sooner you can sort out the digestive troubles, and get him feeling good, the better chance he may have of maybe healing. 

Really the oxbow adult basics and mazuri timothy both have 14% protein, which is only 2 % lower than the alfalfa based pellets. Plus you are limited in what you can feed him, and if timothy pellets will get rid of the bloating problems, then that seems to be your best choice. Feeding a little less protein and maybe stunting his growth a little, is better than more protein and risking bloating and possible death. So the timothy pellets seem like a good choice to me.


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