# Kind of upset? "Holland lop" is way bigger than should be?



## thetwobunnies (Dec 15, 2012)

First off, I know this is my fault, I take the blame 100%, instead of waiting to find a good rabbit from a reputable breeder I got impatient and got this rabbit from an irresponsible breeder. Anyway, so long story short, I miscalculated how old she is, on the 5th of December, I thought she was 11 weeks, and I sort of lost track after that. Guess what? She is actually turning 12 weeks this monday -_-, which is actually worse, because she is wayyy too big for her breed. The breeder told me that she is not show quality and that her parents weren't either, obviously, and she sent me pictures of the parents.

However, at 10 weeks she was already 2.1lbs... God knows much she weighs now. She is a holland lop. I can already tell she will be way bigger than 4lbs, I have a holland lop male (may be a mix - i adopted him from a rescue) and he is around 4.2-4.7lbs. He looks more like a mini lop though. 

How big will she get? I am sort of disappointed in her weight. She looks more like a mini lop than a holland lop too -_-. Actually now that I think about it, the breeder might have thought that mini's were hollands I just NOW thought of that. I am worried about space, I have a cage in mind for when I bond them and the measurements are 56Wx84Hx42L, I might add a second level even a 3rd if I am able to. I'm just worried I won't have enough room for 2 rabbits especially if one is very "large" 
Sigh, of course I will keep her, that would be horrible of me to get rid of her because she is too big, right? She IS sweet and nice and friendly so I guess that's what really counts?


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## thetwobunnies (Dec 15, 2012)

Sorry if this is in the wrong section, I wasn't sure where to put it


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## whitelop (Dec 15, 2012)

I have a mini and she is like 5 lbs at 2.5 years. Mini lops can weigh between 3-6 lbs. 
It depends on what she really is, on how big she'll get. She could be done growing now, or she could gain another pound or two.


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## thetwobunnies (Dec 16, 2012)

I suppose, I don't think she's done growing since she is not even 3 months but hopefully she won't be too big


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## Imbrium (Dec 16, 2012)

my holland was 15.5 oz at 10 weeks (and she was chubby, though surprisingly lighter weight than my lionhead that *looked* smaller - even the vet was surprised, lol... but then, Nala's very muscular and muscle is more compact). at six and a half mos, she was 3 lbs, 11.6 oz (and she's still a little chubby). with yours being 33-34 oz at 10 weeks (Gazzle didn't weigh that much until four months!), it definitely sounds like you ended up with a mini (or at the very least, something that's not purebred Holland).

as for the cage... my condo's 2W x 3L x 5H in NIC grids with 3 levels (two of which have significant head space) + a little landing. based on the dimensions you gave, I'm guessing you're talking about a 3W x 4L x 6H NIC condo? my condo seems like a pretty good fit for my two 3-4 lb bunns; given that the cage you have in mind is 1 grid larger than mine in every direction and assuming you're going to end up with a 4.5 lb bunny and a 6-7 lb bunny, I think it'll be plenty big enough for them as long as you've got three levels in it. they need at least a few hours a day outside the cage anyway no matter how roomy it is, and the cage you have in mind is pretty much tantamount to living in a bunny mansion .


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## thetwobunnies (Dec 16, 2012)

Ah I agree she will be quite large! A bit disappointing but I will live 

Oh yes that is in inches by the way^ so if it were to be an NIC condo then those measurements sound about right, and I really plan on making a 2nd level AT LEAST but I'm not too sure how to since the dimensions are quite large. I will most definitely be letting them out daily, I'd go crazy if I was cooped up in a cage all day!


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## JBun (Dec 16, 2012)

She may not end up being bigger than 4 lb. I've had bunnies the same age but seem to have a growth spurt at different times, and when they get to about 3 mo. the growing seems to level off a bit, and they don't seem to grow quite as much. Just cause she might be a bit bigger doesn't necessarily mean that she isn't a holland. I have a holland that is over 5 lb, she is a little chubby though, and looks wise, the conformation of hollands can vary in the breed, like with any breed.

Your cage sounds like it is plenty big. With a second or third level, it will be even better.


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## thetwobunnies (Dec 16, 2012)

Hopefully that will be the case - that she is just having some major growth spurt but will slow down at around 4 months or maybe even now. And that is true, I guess only time can tell!


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## Imbrium (Dec 16, 2012)

yeah, you gave inches and I converted to feet 'cause it made more sense to me... then I noticed a pattern in the measurements between your cage and mine and realized yours converted to grid-lengths pretty precisely, so I took a guess that you were thinking NIC (seemed like too much of a coincidence for all three measurements in inches to be evenly divisible by 14, plus what else is gonna be that big? ).

here's my condo... I have a little built-in shelf for myself on the top row of grids, since they don't need a 3-grid-high ceiling over the landing anyway.







dowels from home depot are 4' long and are a great fit to run along a length of 3 grids - they're gonna be your best friend for keeping shelves from sagging and adding stability to the condo. although... dowels are like $4 at my home depot and for a cage that size you'll need quite a few... I'm thinking 1x1s or something like that might be cheaper and just as effective.

for 3 x 4 x 6... hmm... ok, bear with me here, I'm overdue for sleep, have zero artistic skill and don't have anything like MS paint on my comp so you're getting a crudely drawn, 1-dimensional, not entirely to scale image hand-drawn on a piece of notebook paper and scanned onto my comp. (oh, and now I'm cranky, because my comp has continued its new trend of me not being able to upload anything (ie scanned or from the camera), edit it and get it uploaded to photobucket without my computer's CPU usage maxing out at 100% and refusing to go down until it's had a reboot... and after a reboot, it takes 10 freaking mins for firefox to be functional again.)





ok, to translate my craptastic diagram...
you're looking at the condo head-on; it's four grids wide and three grids deep.

the thicker lines indicate where flooring will go.

the "o"s indicate the ends of dowels/floor supports - they'll run front-to-back. I forgot to put ones in the same rows along the ceiling - you'll want ceiling support as well to prevent sagging.

ll = that floor space is open to allow bunns to move up to the next level

X over two grids indicates that on the front face of the condo, those two panels will open up to function as a door (carabiners work well to clip them shut) - doors only need to be 1 grid high to get good access, but they NEED to be two wide so that your shoulders can fit into the condo. mind you, I have trouble believing this will be effective when the condo is three deep (works great with 2 deep, though)... I'm wondering if you could put doors in the same locations on the back side of the condo without compromising the stability, because I think that would be necessary to clean the entire floor. probably possible if you also use some vertical dowels/supports.

as a note, the trickiest door to manage will be the one on the third floor - it has to be on the bottom half the level instead of the top so that you don't need a ladder to make use of it. this essentially creates four "free-moving" panels in a square, which is the biggest threat to stability with this design since it's a large unsupported space, you have to hold up a floor there and the end of the floor is floating (ie doesn't go all the way across). the best solution would be to only do one open grid/a 1-grid landing so that 2 of 3 rows (length-wise) connect all the way across and to use support beams that are longer than a standard dowel and place them length-wise instead of front-to-back.

looking at the second and third level floors from a bird's eye view, you could have either 9, 10 or 11 of the 12 grid spaces filled in by that level's floor and on the little between-level landings, it could be 3, 2 or 1 grid-space in size, respectively. just depends on whether you want a deeper landing or more floor space on the true levels. if you want to maximize romping-around space, I'd go with 11/1.

as a note, for stability purposes, the ground floor's floor needs to be filled in with grids in a sky-scraper style condo.

~~~~~

if you want to be practical, I'd recommend going with a 4x2x6. if you want to build the biggest, most bada$$ condo a bunny (or human) could ever dream of having, you could stick with the 4x3x6. practical has it's upsides, but I vote in favor of the obscene mansion just because it would be so **** impressive! if you go with the latter, I'd be happy to consult, help troubleshoot and brain-storm about renovations if something needs improving just so I can be a part of the process! I've taken apart/reassembled my condo a couple times, so I've figured out the best ways to go about building something so big.

honestly, I think the hardest part would be the flooring, unless you've got some tools/know how to work with wood and have or know someone who has a decent-sized pick-up truck or van (ie big enough for full sheets of plywood)... then it really wouldn't be so bad.

regardless of whether you build in moderation or to excess, make SURE you like the location you pick if you live alone, lol. I had to move my condo once to upgrade to a larger tarp (one that could cover my whole living room instead of an 8'x10')... I cut the top 2 grid-heights of the condo off so I could move the top half and bottom half separately, but as a 5'4'' female working alone, it was still a major hassle.

~~~~~

sorry for the rambling... got excited about designing a dream condo, lol... if anything doesn't make sense, let me know and I can probably clarify it after some sleep.


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## thetwobunnies (Dec 16, 2012)

Wow very informative thanks, i appreciate it. It's painful to say this but it is actually an xpen! But i did read your entire reply  and found it very helpful. I do agree, I'm not sure how to transfer the plywood from home depot to my home, the home depot i go to is literally 3 miles away, so it's not far, but I don't think a plywood that big would fit in a sedan. Which reminds me, how thick is the wood in your condo? I used to use like a really thin sheet of plywood for my second shelf (really small like 40"x27 and a 1/2") it was very thin maybe like 1/3 or 1/2 of an inch, but I feel like that isn't sturdy enough. But I don't want to get something too thick and make the whole cage wobbly and awkward and eventually the wire on the cage would give out


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## Imbrium (Dec 16, 2012)

I used coroplast, actually, since I didn't have the tools to work with plywood. coroplast is corrugated plastic (the biggest size you can get it in is 4'x8') and it's like 1/4'' thick or something. it's easier to work with (all you need is box-cutters or an x-acto knife and a way to mark a straight line on it (I used one of those marking things with the string and the chalk dust)). the trade-off is that it's significantly more expensive (best deal I've heard of is at home depot, $12-13 for a 4'x8' sheet, but not all home depots actually have that size - mine doesn't 'cause they suck).

the stability of your shelves doesn't come from your flooring - it comes from placing dowels (or a similar length of wood) directly *beneath* the shelf and then zip-tying them to the shelf to keep it from sagging. thought I had a good pic of the zip-tie connection, but I guess not ><

basically, the dowels provide as much if not *more* support than a thick floor (because they extend out the sides of the condo) with none of the weight, allowing you to use a very thin and light-weight flooring.

home depot delivers, but I'm not sure about delivery ranges and fees - you'd have to contact your local store to find out if that's a viable option.

btw, if you're looking into a NIC condo, the best deal on grids is at sears: http://www.sears.com/stor-floor-standing-6-cube-storage-unit/p-00913332000P?prdNo=1&blockNo=1&blockType=G1 (you'll want to order online for the sale price and do site-to-store to avoid absurd shipping charges).

another housing option would be to do what I've done, which is scale back the dream condo to a more moderate size that focuses on height rather than floor space, that way they get some variety without the condo taking up a massive chunk of the room, then zip-tie one or more x-pens to corners of the condo to create a "run" area that they have full-time access to. I've actually got my whole living room fenced in with a combination of two 48'' x-pens and 5 grid-widths worth of 3-grid-high NIC fencing . this option is cheaper, easier to build, easier to clean and makes more of "their" space accessible to you so that you can hang out inside their home. it's a good balance as far as cost, practicality and space go.

as an added bonus, by scaling back the condo, I was able to get the sign shop I bought coroplast from to cut the 4'x8' sheets down to 3'x4' sheets that actually fit in the backseat of my RX-8 (barely, lol - LOVE the rear doors that open backwards!).


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## thetwobunnies (Dec 16, 2012)

I see! I was thinking of wooden dowels, but I now realized it just wouldn't work? It's very hard to explain how my cage set up is now, hm. But for one thing the cage is 54" wide so I don't think I'd be able to find wooden dowels that long? Also, even if I were to find wooden dowels that long there is no "wire"/ cage on the other side to support it? just a bare wall? 

How to explain this. Okay so I am using an xpen however the panels are 28" long instead of 24", you know how there 2 panels that aren't connected? So you can fold it flat and stuff? Well, the cage would be against a wall, so instead of having the xpen "enclosing" them, 2 of the panels would be zip tied to the wall so there would be a bare wall instead of an xpen panel enclosing them.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Dec 16, 2012)

I apologize in advance, I don't have time to read through this whole post. But I thought I'd offer some comments as someone who raises Holland Lops.

A show quality Holland Lop must weigh between 2-4 lbs. That is the recognized show weight. To achieve that weight range, we have to breed rabbits with one copy of the dwarf gene- that's what makes them small rabbits and gives them the round, massive show rabbit characteristics.

However, because a show rabbit carries only one copy of the dwarf gene, there is also one "normal" gene in there.

In a show rabbit to show rabbit cross, there are three possibilities in the offspring-

- Two dwarf genes. This causes peanuts (a fatal genetic combination).
- One dwarf, one normal gene. This gives you show rabbits.
- Two normal genes. This gives you what many call "normal" or "brood" rabbits.

Those normal Hollands often exceed 4 lbs. and may get closer to 4.5 to 5 lbs. In some cases, but not often, maybe heavier. Normal Hollands often have more refined features- longer heads, longer ears, longer bodies. They don't look like show quality Hollands.

This may be what you have. If so, it wouldn't be the sign of an irresponsible breeder- everyone gets them. And unless you were specific about wanting a particular weight of rabbit, I don't think the breeder was unfair in the sale since they did disclose that the rabbit was not show quality (therefore, does not have show characteristics).

It may be that you are right and the rabbit is not what was advertised to you. But I'm providing this information because it may also be a miscommunication and misunderstanding.

If you are unhappy, I recommend contacting the breeder and expressing your concerns. Reputable breeders, if that is the case after all, will usually be willing to help you out- maybe offer a replacement that is closer to what you are looking for.

Also, something else to consider is that about 2 lbs. wouldn't necessarily be uncommon for a 10-12 week old Holland. Every line matures differently, but most of mine are done growing for the most part by 4 months old. So at about that 3 month point, they have gained a big portion of their size already.

I hope this helps!


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## thetwobunnies (Dec 16, 2012)

Thank you that did help! I was sort of disappointed? But you are right, I was not looking for a show quality holland lop. I am now content, other people have been telling me that she is not a holland due to her face shape, but I now know other wise. I mean it's okay if she's bigger than what I expected, but if I wanted a larger rabbit I could have chosen a french lop or something you know? But perhaps she is going through some major growth spurt at the moment!


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## ladysown (Dec 16, 2012)

holland lops vary in size. Brood size get to 6 lbs. bigger doesn't mean mini lop all the time. It may just mean brood sized doe produced brood sized offspring.

you are looking at putting two rabbits into 56Wx84Hx42L that's like 5 feet x 7 feet x 3.5 ft (rough estimates, assuming you are doing inches).

two rabbits will do that just fine. Even with a 6 lb doe. She might not reach 6 lbs though. Some buns go through awkward stages of development.


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## thetwobunnies (Dec 16, 2012)

Yeah in the pics she sent me, her parents looked average/ maybe a tiny bit bigger. And yes approximately those would be the measurement in feet, thank you I was hoping my cage would be big enough for 2 rabbits, and now I know that it is


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## Blue eyes (Dec 20, 2012)

If I'm understanding correctly, you are using an xpen that is up to the wall. Is it similar to this?





If so, that should be roomy for your bunnies. I'm sorry, but I had to chuckle. I just don't see 5 lb rabbits as "big" by any means. I still consider your rabbits on the small side. It sounds like they will have plenty of room. 

The advantage of a NIC cage, as Imbrium suggested, is that you can get more square footage with less floor space since there are different levels. I used the grids for the base of the levels and simply put carpet on top of those grids on the upper levels -- no wood at all. That was fine for my 2 rabbits (one was a french lop). Here's a pic of that NIC cage (sorry it's fuzzy):





Anyway, you have a few options -- whatever works for you!


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## thetwobunnies (Dec 21, 2012)

YES it looks like that, except in a rectangle. And ha maybe medium sized then  Thanks for the pictures! I have tried making an NIC condo before but I didn't find it to be very sturdy. Thank you though!


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## Imbrium (Dec 21, 2012)

really? I find mine very sturdy! did you use the connectors, or just zip-ties (the connectors SUCK)? also, did you use dowels or something as support for the levels?


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## Blue eyes (Dec 22, 2012)

thetwobunnies said:


> YES it looks like that, except in a rectangle. And ha maybe medium sized then  Thanks for the pictures! I have tried making an NIC condo before but I didn't find it to be very sturdy. Thank you though!



Yes, I'm also curious as to how you put your NIC together. I have made many and they are very sturdy and a real pain to try to completely take apart because they are so sturdy. You can see in my photo that I even had 9lb bunnies in there. 

I only use zip ties and never the connectors that come with the grids. Just 2 zip ties per side of a square. I don't even have wood on the shelves - just carpet.


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## Blaze_Amita (Dec 22, 2012)

1/2 sheet of actual plywood-not partical board- would surely be strong enough. my nestboxes are all made out of 1/2 plywood and with the full litter plus hay, hair and bedding and moisture(cause the babies gotta pee somewhere and I don't disturb the mother made nest until 10 days) that holds up even under litters of 8-10 dutch or New Zealand babies- and that's put together via finish nails or brads. 
I love the NIC condo, that's very neat looking!!

I used to raise Hollands years ago and even with my tiny parents that were good show rabbits- I still had a few LARGER babies that hit 4-4.5 pounds and they were either brood stock or pets. A picture could be helpful!


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## wendymac (Dec 22, 2012)

If you know the size you want your plywood cut in to, you can have them cut it for you there, right in the store. Well, at least you can at Lowe's, and I think Home Depot is pretty much the same?


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## Imbrium (Dec 22, 2012)

yeah, home depot will cut wood for you


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## thetwobunnies (Dec 22, 2012)

Hm really? I used zip ties, I have a picture somewhere but I didn't get very far, all I had done were the walls because it seemed very unstable (wobbly and such) but I am going to home depot today and am planning on getting a piece of plywood or some sort of stable wood that is 4' x 4.6'
I've decided to just go with an xpen which would have been bigger than my original NIC condo (not including levels because in that case the NIC condo would be much bigger in sq ft) 
So just to be sure is 4.6x7' (feet) big enough for 2 medium sized rabbits? with a 4 foot shelf? - they will get play time outside this is just their cage when I am busy. 

Also sorry for the late reply my rabbit chewed through my charger yesterday morning and it ended up dying around noon and I just went to best buy to purchase a new one today, 86$ just for a charger!!

Also does it matter what KIND of wood? As long as it's sturdy? Or does it HAVE to ply wood? I will have something over the top. Stick on tiles with maybe a rug or something for traction


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## Imbrium (Dec 22, 2012)

ohhh, lol. yeah, if you didn't finish, that's why! it seems very unstable when you've just got it partially made... but the more you do, the better it gets. once you have ceilings/floors/shelves in there and some dowels for support, it goes from scary-wobbly to *very* sturdy.


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## sugarbunnies (Dec 22, 2012)

thetwobunnies said:


> Also sorry for the late reply my rabbit chewed through my charger yesterday morning and it ended up dying around noon and I just went to best buy to purchase a new one today, 86$ just for a charger!!




I feel your pain. Mischa is the troublemaker out of the pair -- She's chewed through 4 cords (microphone, microphone again, cell charger, and headphones). Don't go to Best Buy to get your stuff, though. They are twenty times overpriced.


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## thetwobunnies (Dec 22, 2012)

Ha I figured, it's a shame I took it apart and returned every thing months ago... I would have appreciated a bunch now. 

Ugh, sugar bunnies, I know! My female chewed through my ipod and iphone charger just a few days ago too! And then my mac charger just yesterday! So frustrated! I could have bought them a whole bunch of toys with that money - 140$ + tax! Sigh, there is no way I can purchase a new charger so I guess I'll have to be 10000x more careful than I was before! Really? I thought best buy was just normal? Sigh there's no other place to get replacement chargers that sell it for cheap though! Around here anyway


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