# Not Again!!! )=



## Lissa (Jul 25, 2005)

Iszy is sick again. She's sneezing like crazy and there is a thick white discharge. She's only had about a one-month remission from the last time this happened. The vet did a culture about a month ago and found pantoea agglomerans. I still to this day have no idea what that is, and neither does the vet. I wish someone could find out what the heck this is because it's back. 

I removed Iszy from the bunny room away from Pristine and gave her Baytril. What else can I do?!?  What is pantoea agglomerans?


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## naturestee (Jul 25, 2005)

I just did a search on google- it's a species ofbacteria. I will be praying for her. Her vet may beable to put her on a more aggressive treatment- stronger and/ormultiple antibiotics. Is Baytril what she put you on lasttime? Because when infections reoccur, it's not unusual forthe strain of bacteria to be resistant to the firsttreatment. I've seen that with my sister and it's not fun.

Wishing you the best!

:bouquet:
Edit- looking back at my search, it looks like it usually infectsplants. Maybe your bun is like my sister. Aftermultiple kidney infections she had an ear piercing infected by abacteria that normally only affects cows because she wasimmunocompromised.


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## juicyjuicee (Jul 25, 2005)

I'm trying to do a bit of research to see whatit is, so far i just came across what it does for human health. "_P.agglomerans_ can cause opportunistic infections in immunecomprimised patients."..i'll keep looking.


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## Lissa (Jul 25, 2005)

Baytril is what she was put on lasttime. It cleared it up completely for about a month and nowit's back? Is this something that's recurrent? Isthere anyway to completely kill this bacteria so it won't comeback? Is it contagious? I have so many questions.

I'm so going to scream at my vet. :X


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## RebeccaUK (Jul 25, 2005)

Oh Lissa, poor Iszy. I don't have any advice but just wanted to say that I will be thinking of you and Iszy. xx


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## Lissa (Jul 25, 2005)

I've looked up the bacteria everywhere onlinebut I can't understand it. It doesn't make sense to mebecause it's all in vet language.


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## naturestee (Jul 25, 2005)

Lissa, did she do a culture and sensitivitytest? That would show what drugs the bacteria will besensitive to. If not, you may want to request it this timearound.


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## Carolyn (Jul 25, 2005)

*naturestee wrote:*


> Lissa, did she do a culture and sensitivity test?That would show what drugs the bacteria will be sensitive to.If not, you may want to request it this time around.




Agree.

Thining and praying for you.

ray:

-Carolyn


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## Lissa (Jul 25, 2005)

She did do a culture and sensitivity test andBaytril was on the list of medications susceptible. There arejust so many questions. 

Did I do the right thing by moving Iszy away from Pristine? Ifeel horrible about that. But if it is contagious, I don'twant Pristine catching it. My poor Iszy. 

Dumb vets!!!!!!!


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## pamnock (Jul 25, 2005)

The complex actions of bacteria and viralinfections are not completely understood. This bacteria isone that is more known for taking advantage of an immune compromised orstressed system rather than being that actual cause of disease.

Also, there are no tests that pick up every single pathogen --generally only the more well known ones. There are many, manyorganisms that science has not yet identified.

Hang in there -- your vet is doing the best he can.

I know you are under so much stress and emotionally exhausted after losing beautiful Lenci.

Pam


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## Lissa (Jul 25, 2005)

What if this killed Lenci? What if shecontracted the bacteria and that was part of the reason shedied? Is Pristine going to get it? Is itcontagious? 

I'm just so frustrated right now. I have a call into the vetand I'm waiting for the return call. I know what he's goingto tell me....nothing. There has to be someone that knowsmore about this.

I just want to know these things:

1. Is it contagious?

2. Is it curable?

3. Can it be fatal?

4. What the heck caused it? Something outside?


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## naturestee (Jul 25, 2005)

When I did the google search, I saw that humanscould be infected after being injured by plant thorns. Butthat caused systemic arthritis, not a nasal infection.

I think you did the right thing be separating them, just to besafe. Since this seems to be more of a problem inimmunocompromised rabbits/people, I would not think this was the causefor Lenci's death unless something serious happened to both Lenci andIszy.


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## DaisyNBuster (Jul 25, 2005)

God Lissa this is the last thing you want right now.

I'm sorry I can't help you on the medical side, but I will send you my prayers that Iszy makes a quick and full recovery.

ray:

Vickie


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## lyndsy (Jul 25, 2005)

Lissa,

I'm sending prayers to you, all that's happened and now this.

I am truely sorry. I do hope your vet finds something to get rid of it all.

:monkey::monkey:


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## Lissa (Jul 25, 2005)

Still waiting for the stupid vet to callback. Our regular vet is on vacation...go figure.:? They are VETS! They are supposed to be able toanswer all my questions. Do they not care? Maybe Ishould go somewhere else. 


And, no, I really don't need this right now. I just don'tknow how much more of this rabbit chaos I can handle.


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## roberts_rabbits_2008 (Jul 25, 2005)

Could it be snuffles? I dono what thescientific name for that is. If so, yes it is contagous, itsa great thing that you seperated your buns, just to be on the safe sideno matter what it is. I know that snuffles can go away andcome back whenever stress is added. Not real sure if thatswhat it is though.

Robert


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## Lissa (Jul 25, 2005)

I'm FED UP! I called the vet's officebecause the vet never call me back. After 5 minutes ofholding I got to talk to a vet tech who relayed a message from the vetto separate the bunnies and give Iszy the Baytril. I KNOWTHIS ALREADY! I want to know what this is. I'mgoing to be calling UW-Madison to see if they know anythingaboutpantoea agglomerans. I will pay as much moneyas need to get to the bottom of this. If my vet can't give mean answer, SOMEONE WILL. I want to know what's wrong with mybaby.  That isn't too much to ask for. 

As to Robert's question, no pasteurella was found in the culture.


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## Carolyn (Jul 25, 2005)

I tend to agree with you that you should have aback-up vet, Lissa. I know that you were happy with youroriginal one, but a back-up or one that you can count on to get back toyou or at least try to troubleshoot with you makes all the differencein the world when you're upset and stressing over theircondition. It's no wonder why your nerves are on end with therecent loss of Lenci, and still not really know what went wrong exactly.

Will help you locate another vet upon recommendations of someveterinarians that only see rabbits. I can ask them if theysuggest anyone in your locale if you wish.

-Carolyn


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## Lissa (Jul 25, 2005)

I have a call into the best veterinarians in theState....University of Wisconsin - Madison. I was referred tothem by several different veterinarians throughout the State.I will get to the bottom of this even if it costs me a limb.I need answers. Now.


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## naturestee (Jul 25, 2005)

Good for you, Lissa! Simply treatingwith the same antibiotic as before without even a culture/sensitivitytest is irresponsible of your vet. I hope they can help atUW-Madison. Let me know how it goes- I might need them as abackup sometime, too.


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## Lissa (Jul 25, 2005)

I talked to a rabbit vet in Milwaukee and shetold me that a blood test would need to be done and the Iszy needed tobe put on a different anti-biotic. These people at least knowwhat they're talking about. Where is my regular vet when Ineed her?! 

....on vacation :fishing::disgust:


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## CorkysMom (Jul 25, 2005)

Sadly just cuz they are a vet doesn't mean theyknow all..doesn't mean they don't care. I had simialar probswith cardiologists last year...took me 5 of em to get to someone whocould give me answers and was willing to try aggressivetreatment....sadly it still didn't take care of it..but at least Itrust this guy. (too bad he's 2 hours away)

You are doing the right thing by going elsewhere tho and trying othersto find someone that knows. Hand in there, persistance will pay off. 

In the meantime you and Izzy are in my thoughts/prayers...hope something good comes out of your persistance!


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## Bassetluv (Jul 25, 2005)

I have been trying to find something on panoteaagglomerans on the 'net as well; unfortunately I don't have thebackground to understand the scientific references.

I did find this, which I don't understand, but perhaps someone here will...

*Pantoea agglomerans
rhamnose positive (may be delayed); indole, methyl red, VP, Simmon'scitrate, urease, KCN, motility, phenylalanine deaminase, gas fromglucose, lactose, sucrose, dulcitol, inositol and raffinose variable;causes endotoxinemia, infusion infection; susceptible to ceftriaxone(MIC 0.03 mg/L), cotrimoxazole (&lt; 0.06--0.12 mg/L),meropenem (0.13 mg/L), moxalactam (0.25 mg/L), cefotaxime (0.25--0.5mg/L), imipenem (0.5 mg/L), gentamicin (0.5 mg/L), ciprofloxacin(100%), enoxacin (94%), norfloxacin (94%).*

I have no idea what any of this means, as I don't have a scientificbackground (and it's very frustrating, because at work I see paperslike this all the time but wouldn't be able to tell you what theymean...I work in a place that publishes scientific journals). Anyway, Iwill keep on searching and see if I can find anything that is remotelyclose to laymans' terms...

Ooops...I should include the link for this info in case anyone doesunderstand it...I noticed there was information on Pasteurella as well:

http://wordnet.com.au/Products/d&amp;m17.pdf


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## Lissa (Jul 25, 2005)

*Bassetluv wrote:*


> I have been trying to find something on panotea agglomeranson the 'net as well; unfortunately I don't have the background tounderstand the scientific references.


That is the same problem I am having. All this scientific jargon is confusing. :?


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## Lissa (Jul 25, 2005)

Is it okay to pet Iszy and then pet Pristine?


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## bunsforlife (Jul 25, 2005)

I would recommend washing your hands with hot water before touching Pristine, but thats me


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## Jenniblu (Jul 25, 2005)

Okay - this part lists what medications thepathogen is suseptable (vulnerable) to so these medicines can be usedto treat it. The numbers after it are the concentrations ofeach type of medicine used to treat it (I"m 90% sure of at least):

*ceftriaxone (MIC 0.03 mg/L), cotrimoxazole (&lt;0.06--0.12 mg/L), meropenem (0.13 mg/L), moxalactam (0.25 mg/L),cefotaxime (0.25--0.5 mg/L), imipenem (0.5 mg/L), gentamicin (0.5mg/L), ciprofloxacin (100%), enoxacin (94%), norfloxacin (94%).*

One of the meds listed is Ciprofloxacin (Cipro) was what Vash was puton to treat his abscess early this year. It helped to skrinkit, but really affected his appetite.


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## Bassetluv (Jul 25, 2005)

> Is it okay to pet Iszy and then pet Pristine?


My rule of thumb with animals has always been...until and unless youknow exactly what you're dealing with, take precautions. Handle theanimals that don't show any symptoms first, then wash hands, sterilizeor wash anything that is used for both (all) pets, then handle theanimal which isn't well last....just to be on the safe side.


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## Lissa (Jul 25, 2005)

*Jenniblu wrote:*


> Okay - this part lists what medications the pathogen issuseptable (vulnerable) to so these medicines can be used to treatit. The numbers after it are the concentrations of each typeof medicine used to treat it (I"m 90% sure of at least):
> 
> *ceftriaxone (MIC 0.03 mg/L), cotrimoxazole (&lt;0.06--0.12 mg/L), meropenem (0.13 mg/L), moxalactam (0.25 mg/L),cefotaxime (0.25--0.5 mg/L), imipenem (0.5 mg/L), gentamicin (0.5mg/L), ciprofloxacin (100%), enoxacin (94%), norfloxacin (94%).*
> 
> One of the meds listed is Ciprofloxacin (Cipro) was what Vash was puton to treat his abscess early this year. It helped to skrinkit, but really affected his appetite.


I don't have the test results with me, but I know Baytril was listed. Does it say anything about being curable?


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## Lissa (Jul 25, 2005)

UPDATE

The vet finally called me back. He said that he has neverheard of pantoea agglomerans in the respiratory system, but rather onthe skin of dogs and cats. He is not familiar (nor is Iszy'sregular vet) with this bacteria in rabbits. Pantoeaagglomerans are a type of Enterobacter (whatever that means).He told me to put Iszy back on the Baytril for about a month.He thinks that, like humans taking antibiotics, if we don't take themlong enough it can relapse. He believes this is what happenedhere. Iszy also needs to be kept away from Pristine for 10weeks! I have Iszy out in the kitchen andPristine in the bunny room. Though the bacteria is nottransmissible through air, but rather through direct nose-to-nosecontact, he said I better play it safe. 

I asked about blood work, x-rays, cultures and other testing that couldbe done. His response was that he wouldn't know what to belooking for. We already know the type of bacteria which iscausing this and he said that any other testing wouldn't benecessary. 

The lady at UW said that it could possibly be the back molars causingsome problems. I couldn't remember exactly what she called itbut she said that a skull film under anesthesia would need to beperformed to see if this was the problem. She too, is notfamiliar with pantoea agglomerans. She said that she wouldtalk to the microbiologist.


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## Jenniblu (Jul 25, 2005)

Lissa, do you live near any apple or pearorchards? What about feeding her bananas? I'masking because doing a Google search on _Pantoea agglomerans_ hasbrought up a lot of testing using it to control blight and rust inapples, pears, and bananas. I'm wondering (and don't quote meon this) if it could have come from fruit treated by using thisorganism.

http://www.apsnet.org/phyto/pdfs/2000/0911-01R.pdf

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/jhsb/jhsb/2004/00000079/00000006/art00028

I'm wondering if maybe due a weakened immune system, she then becamesusceptible to this bacteria. From what I am reading, P.agglomerans is found just about everywhere - plants, animals, urine,and water.

Anyone else? onder: This is not my best field of casual study lol.

Edited - Spell check. Oops.


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## Carolyn (Jul 25, 2005)

Thanks for the update, Lissa. Prayers continue. Please keep us posted on how Izzers is doing. 

-Carolyn


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## Lissa (Jul 25, 2005)

Jenn, if that were the case (with the bananas),don't you think Lenci would have been infected too?Hm. :? I'll print this article off and show my vet.


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## pamnock (Jul 25, 2005)

*Jenniblu wrote: *


> I'm wondering if maybe due a weakened immune system, she then becamesusceptible to this bacteria. From what I am reading, P.agglomerans is found just about everywhere - plants, animals, urine,and water.




Correct -- the bacteria is very common and generally not a healththreat. It is more of a threat in nursing homes, hospitals orto those with compromised immune systems.



Pam


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## JimD (Jul 25, 2005)

*Lissa wrote: *


> Is it okay to pet Iszy and then pet Pristine?


Hi Lissa!

I keep a bottle of Purell in the bunnie room, however I usually opt to wash my hands instead.

We also have a blanket that we use for just the sick bunnie (for the"bunnie-burrito" methodto give meds or clip nails).

I'm pretty much a stickler about washing hands before and betweenhandling animals, especially if any have signs of being ill (we have adog and 7 hamsters, too).

All bowls and bottles are labeld with the buns names so we don't mix them up. We never switch around litter pans either.

I even mircowave the "bunnie" sponge between cleaning each litter pan.And we use paper towels to dry bunnie stuff instead of a cloth one thatcould harbor "bad thingies".

Can you say "OCD"


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## Lissa (Jul 25, 2005)

*JimD wrote: *


> Can you say "OCD"


Wecan never be overprotective of our little angels.


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## Jenniblu (Jul 25, 2005)

*pamnock wrote: *


> *Jenniblu wrote: *
> 
> 
> > I'm wondering if maybe due a weakened immune system, she then becamesusceptible to this bacteria. From what I am reading, P.agglomerans is found just about everywhere - plants, animals, urine,and water.
> ...


Yeah,I'm wondering if Izzy has something affecting her immunesystem before she caught this. In hospitals/nursing homes,etc. those mostly vunerable to infection are the elderly, surgerypatients,new mothers (just gave birth), and those infectedwith some other serious infection like AIDS/HIV, TB,etc.

I got infected from a patient who had shingles because I was underextreme stress (mandatory double shifts, house flooded, exposed toother pathogens, etc.) which caused my immune system to start shuttingdown.

Was Izzy under a lot of stress or fighting another infection before this happened?


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## Lissa (Jul 25, 2005)

*Jenniblu wrote:*


> Was Izzy under a lot of stress or fighting another infectionbefore this happened?


I was asked the very same thing when Lenci was sick. The onlything that could have possibly stressed her out was maybe goingoutside?!? She loved it outside, but I'm sure that at firstit can be stressful. Maybe even going inside to the airconditioning from the outdoors where it was sometimes 80degrees?? Other than that, thingshave been thesame.

We moved into our house in April. May both bunnies werefine.Mid June is when everything startedhappening. Iszy got sick and then Lenci got sick right afterthat.


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## p1rat3 (Jul 25, 2005)

*Jenniblu wrote:*


> *pamnock wrote:*
> 
> 
> > *Jenniblu wrote: *
> ...



I agree with what they said above (everything I know was learned fromthis thread though). If this infection takes advantage ofrepressed immune systems then something must have been (or may stillbe) wrong with Izzy. If something is still wrong with Izzy(or the immune system is still weak) then the infection could easily becaught again.

My point is that maybe your are treating the symptom and not thecause. Like changing a mis-worn tire but not fixing thealignment. It seems very likely that something was wrong withIzzy when he got the infection, and I am worried that it was nevertreated and may still have what ever has hurt his immune system.

Just my thoughts. (and amalgamation of others thoughts),

Jay


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## Lissa (Jul 25, 2005)

The plan is to keep her on the Baytril and ifthe symptoms come back again, a new antibiotic will be given to her andI may go forward with some further testing...blood tests, skull films,etc.


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## p1rat3 (Jul 25, 2005)

Izzy is in my prayers. I hate to seeany living thing go through something like this. it is evenworse when we are so close to them.

Tell Izzy to 'keep his head up'. I am sure he is a fighter.

Jay


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## Lissa (Jul 25, 2005)

She is definitely a fighter. We will get to the bottom of this. 

Thank you everyone for all your help. Bless your hearts.


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## rabbitluvr04 (Jul 25, 2005)

Iszy will be in my thoughts and prayers. I hope she gets better soon.


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## DaisyNBuster (Jul 26, 2005)

Hows she doing today Lissa? I'm just getting over the shock of Tina's Misty. I really hope Izsy is doing well. 

Still sending prayers,

Vickie


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## LuvaBun (Jul 26, 2005)

Yeah Lissa, how's Iszy today. Poor girl, she'shaving such a rough time. And you must be so upset about having toseparate her from Pristine. Still, it is for the best, even though 10weeks will seem like such a long time.

Keeping you in my thoughts, Jan


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## Lissa (Jul 26, 2005)

Iszy is still her normal feisty self.Her attitude has not changed at all. She's just sneezing andshaking her head a lot, which really makes me wonder if she has aninner ear infection. The vet looked in her ears last week andsaw nothing. Maybe the infection goes deeper? Idon't know.

I know that I'm completely stressed out. Jason and I talkedabout some pretty tough subjects last night. We talked aboutgiving Pristine back to the breeder and possibly euthanizingIszy. Neither isan option. I am tooattached to Pristine. I already ordered mother's ringincluding her birth stone. I already have her picture hangingon the wall. She's already won my heart. I can't dothat. As selfish as it may be, I just can't. Andeuthanization....um.....BIG NO! She is still our littleIszy. Her attitude has not changed. As long as sheis enjoying her life and hopping around happily, that is not anoption. If her life, however, deteriorates to the point thatshe just isn't the same, we will cross that bridge when we getthere. Both of these thoughts make me sick to mystomach. 

Is it unfair for me to want to keep Pristine? What would youdo? I just can't give her up.  Lencinever caught what Iszy has so it should be okay, right?

I'm going to call UW back today and talk to that biologist. Ineed to know more. Jason and I also decided to get a secondopinion from another veterinary clinic. I will be making thatappointment today.


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## cirrustwi (Jul 26, 2005)

Prayers for Iszy.

As far as making any tough decisions, I would wait for a bit.It's all too fresh right now. Just take some time.Keep the girls separate, and see what happens with Iszy and themedication.

Jen


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## Lissa (Jul 26, 2005)

I just feel like I'm risking a healthy baby bunny's life.  But I can't let her go.


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## CorkysMom (Jul 26, 2005)

If you were truly risking her life, you wouldn'tbe seperating them and being as cautious as you are...keep up with thecaution and talking to people and trying to get to the bottom ofit...there's nothing "selfish" about wanting to keep Pristine....I'msure she's as happy with you as you are to have her there.


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## Lissa (Jul 26, 2005)

God, I'm just bawling. I've only hadPristine for two weeks and I can't imagine not having heralready. She's already won my heart....and Jason'stoo. We just can't give her up. But isthat selfish?


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## RaspberrySwirl (Jul 26, 2005)

Just catching upon all of this...Wow, what a lot going on! :shock:Hang inthere. You and your bunsare in our thoughts and prayers.

Ras, SLG and Sebastian


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## CorkysMom (Jul 26, 2005)

*Lissa wrote: *


> God,I'm just bawling. I've only had Pristine for two weeks and Ican't imagine not having her already. She's already won myheart....and Jason's too. We just can't give herup. But is that selfish?


See what I said above..  Pristine came to you for a reason...


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## Lissa (Jul 26, 2005)

*PuterGeekGirl wrote:*


> See what I said above..  Pristine came to youfor a reason...


I know she did.  She is our fuzzylittleblessing. She got Iszy eating again. She made uslaugh and smile after Lenci left. I do believe everythinghappens for a reason. I just would feel so guilty if thisthing was contagious and Pristine got sick.


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## Lissa (Jul 26, 2005)

UPDATE:

I talked to the exotics specialist at UW-Madison again who had spokenwith a microbiologist. These people are the top rabbit vetsin the State according to everyone I've talked to. Dr.Paul-Murphy told me the same thing as everyone else: She doesnot know what caused it; whether or not it is contagious is unknown,but she's "pretty sure" it isn't contagious; she doesn't know if it'scurable;I am doing the right thing by keeping Iszy onBaytril; and she has never seen this type of bacteria in a rabbitculture. I'm saddened to say that this is probably thefarthest I'm going to get with this. It's going to remain amystery. I called the temp. vet after I got off the phonewith Dr. Paul-Murphy and he told me to continue her on Baytril and hewill give Dr. Paul Murphy a call either today or tomorrow and see ifthere is anything further that can be done.

The plan now is to keep her on Baytril for one month and then come backfor a culture to see if the bacteria is gone. If not, I don'tknow what to do.


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## LuvaBun (Jul 26, 2005)

Trust Iszy to turn out to be a woman of mystery! Seriously, it does sound as though she has them completely at aloss as to it's cause. Hopefully, the Baytril will get rid of it thistime. Like you say, at least she isn't suffering, and is carryingonas normal - she is leaving the worrying to her mom and day!

Jan


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## Lissa (Jul 26, 2005)

*LuvaBun wrote: *


> Trust Iszy to turn out to be a woman of mystery !


:laugh:That's my Iszy!


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## naturestee (Jul 26, 2005)

James here,
Glad you won't give up on her. Just because it's unknowndoesn't mean it isn't uncureable. And if she is happy, thenit means it is time to pick your head up and fight. There isalong way to go for better and for worse, please stay optimistic andknow you have back up from across the globe here.


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## Lissa (Jul 26, 2005)

Thank you naturestree. I appreciate that.


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## Lissa (Aug 29, 2005)

UPDATE: Iszy went off the Baytril onFriday after 1 month of being on it. All was fine until lastnight when she started sneezing again. A thick whitedischarge was apparent and there was a lot of it. 

I'm going to call her vet and then call the rabbit expert at UW-Madisonto see if there is something else that will kill this bug. Ifnot, she most likely willbe on anti-biotics her entirelife.  Poor little girl.


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## Carolyn (Aug 29, 2005)

ray:


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## naturestee (Aug 29, 2005)

Poor Iszy. I'm wondering if she just can't fight off an infection without help?


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## Lissa (Aug 29, 2005)

Okay, I'm going to rant.

There are so many biologist and veterinarians out there so focused onother animals. They can treat and curedogs and catsand horses for just about anything. But when it comes torabbits, little has been accomplished. We have pasteurellathat has yet to be cured and can only be treated. A simplerespiratory infection that cannot be cured??? Noexcuse. 

Then there is poor little Iszy. Maybe she _is _the firstrabbit to be diagnosed with this bacteria, but one would think thatbiologists and vets would be eager to figure out what this is and whyit is in my rabbit. 

I truly feel some bias. There is so much more that could bedone if the proper research, tests and studies were done.Pasteurella could be cured by now! But why hasn'tit? My opinion....because the experts haven't done theirhomework. 

I feel completely immobile. There is this bacteria in my babyand nobody knows how or why. I kind of get the feeling thatthey just don't care. If Iszy were a cat or a dog or a horse,I believe they would have come to a conclusion by now.


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## Carolyn (Aug 29, 2005)

Understand your rant and upset completely,Lissa. My hope is that as more people take on rabbits aspets, they will get bumped up in the line of priority. 

-Carolyn


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## cirrustwi (Aug 29, 2005)

Lissa: I completely agree with yourrant. Unfortunately the study of exotics is still sonew. I have a friend who is going through the same problemwith a tortoise. She has this nasty, continual respiratoryinfection and they can't seem to figure out why. She too isdealing with some biologists somewhere.

The ownership of exotics is growing very quickly, so hopefully along with that, research will start to happen.

Jen


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## Lissa (Aug 29, 2005)

Iszy's vet finally called me back. Sheinstructed me to keep Iszy off the anti-biotics until Saturday when shecomes in for a culture. I will have to once again take Iszyout of the bunny room.  After the culture comesback, we will decide whether or not to take her to Madison. 

I feel like I'm going to burst.


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## Fergi (Aug 29, 2005)

Oh Lissa, that is such a huge bummer. I'm sosorry to hear about all of the troubles with Iszy. Did the vet do morethan one culture on her in the first place? Tests can be wrong, thesample can be compromised, it happens more often than you would think.I sure hope they are able to figure all of this out and the Iszy is onthe track to healthiness real soon!


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## FreddysMom (Aug 29, 2005)

Okay ..first I want to apologize ... I dont knowhow I didnt see or comment on this thread before ... my prayers andthoughts go out to you and Izsy!!

Okay from the reading I have done this is what I have gathered..

as stated before this is really only a bacteria you catch if it issomehow purposelyintroduced into your bloodstream, or thosewith a compromised immune system (nursing home patients seemed to bethe most common)

This bacterium is EXTREMELY resilient to treatment and may requiretrials of different antibiotics. It apparently has a very high mutationrate in which it becomes tolerant of the drug youre trying to kill itwith.

It is most common in the form of a lower respiratory infection and isoften confused with pneumonia before proper cutures are done.

one study I read, this bacteria is harbored in Sheep/Pasture/CastorTicks (Ixodes ricinus) so it may be a possibility that while outsideIzsy may have been bitten and this would be the direct introductioninto her bloodstream and rule out a compromised immune system.

Available antibiotics to treat this particular bacteria are (keep inmind this is for ppl so I dont know if it will help with Izsy, but atleast you will know the classes of drugs that kill it and your vet canpossibly relate this to an approved drug for animals):Meropenem (known as carbapenems),Fluoroquinolones(such as Cipro or Levaquin), Mezlocillin (aform of penecillin), and lastly super strong class of antibiotics knownas aminoglycosides .. they are usually injected directly into the siteif infection.

oh yeah and if it helps you vet, let them know it is a gram negative bacillus ..better help in deciding treatments.

hope this helps some !!


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## Lissa (Aug 30, 2005)

Freddysmom....:hug:That is the most usefulinformation I've received yet. Thank you so much!!!I will print it off and bring it into my vet. Just out ofcuriosity, where did you find this information?


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## Carolyn (Aug 30, 2005)

No doubt, FreddysMom - ROCKS!

:elvis:

-Carolyn


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## bunnydude (Aug 30, 2005)

Lissa,

I too agree with your rant. Alot more is know about dogs, cats, andhorses. This will probably not change until pet rabbits become morepopular. But its not because vets don't care about Izzy or otherrabbits. Just like everything else in our world, vetrinary medicine isdriven by demand. There simply aren't enough pet rabbits around to makein depth study of rabbit health cost productive. Its sad, but it is thetruth. Meanwhile, advances are being made. Just look at how much saferrabbit anesthesia is and how much safer spays and neuters are.

Bunnydude


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## FreddysMom (Aug 30, 2005)

*Lissa wrote:*


> Freddysmom....:hug:That is the most useful information I'vereceived yet. Thank you so much!!! I will print itoff and bring it into my vet. Just out of curiosity, wheredid you find this information?


super science dork ... research articles and a quick phone call to friend in a microbiology dept. 

here are two of the articles that helped me gather some info...bearwith them theyre a bit wordy and full of medical mumbo-jumbo ..but youcan PM me if you find anything a lil confusing.

This first one, make sure you keep scrolling down .. there is a middlesection that is all links but after that there is tons more info.

http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic678.htm

this article is the one about the ticks ..it is PDF format so i dontknow if that will be a prob. for anyone to read. it also states thatpasturella is carried by those ticks! a very interesting read!

http://www.aaem.pl/pdf/11319.pdf


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## Lissa (Aug 30, 2005)

Thank you so much.  

What does gram-negative mean?


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## FreddysMom (Aug 30, 2005)

*Lissa wrote: *


> Thank you so much.
> 
> What does gram-negative mean?


It refers to the make up of the cell wall of the bacteria...gram negative bacteria are usually the ones that make everyonesick...by saying something is gram negative itimmediatelyallows you to point to a direction of aclassofdrugs to kill it ...


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## Lissa (Aug 30, 2005)

In other words, enterbacter is contagious? 

Another question I have is: I have to keep Iszy off hermedication until Saturday. Is there a chance that somethingbad will happen between now and then (infection, etc.)?


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## FreddysMom (Aug 30, 2005)

most bacteria are contagious ... but in thiscase the bacteria you are dealing with ... you can only catch it ifyoure already sick from something else or under severe stress or it isdirectly introduced to your blood stream... in any case i would stillkeep Iszy separated from Pristine ...b/c with Pristine still beingyoung her system may not be working at top notch

I really couldnt say Lissa. I am not familiar with this... how long after she stopped the baytril did her symptoms come back?


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## Lissa (Aug 30, 2005)

She was off the Baytril for 3 days before the symptoms came back.


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## FreddysMom (Aug 30, 2005)

it sounds like all the baytril did was keep itin check...so maybe if you can put her back on it until like wednight/thurs morning it will keep it suppressed but then come backenough for her culture on saturday.


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## Lissa (Aug 30, 2005)

The vet wanted at least a week off the anti-biotics before the culture. :?


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## FreddysMom (Aug 30, 2005)

then just follow vet instructions and keep her away from Pristine...i wish I had more to offer you hon


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## Lissa (Aug 30, 2005)

You've already offered so much.


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##  (Aug 30, 2005)

****We moved into our house in April.May both bunnies were fine.Mid June is wheneverything started happening. Iszy got sick and then Lencigot sick right after that. ****

I have to wonderwiththis statement , Hereis what I am thinking :

You mentioned here that Youhad moved into a new home . How old isthe house , Was there A house inspectiondone before you moved in ?Arethe walls Painted or wallpapered ? Wereany of the ceiling tiles removed , or anysmall section of walls or ceiling removedfor inspection ? Doyou find any wet ordamp spots anywhere in closets, ceilings , floors,rugs, Is there an attic orcellar , Has any Humans gotten sick, have allergy or chronicsinus infections , Chest infectionsor chronic headaches , DifficultyBreathing . rashes ?

I have to wonder IF this isnt allrelated to an over bloom of Molds , one inparticular is a Hazzard to Humans andAnimals and thats Black Mold .,Its Highly toxic , IF thisparticular Mold is the causeYou need to get the heck out of there and callin someone Qualified in BioHazzardMaterials to have it removed , 
You will need to getyour Home tested and have thisstuff Removed IF it isfound I also believe thereare tests now that candetermine the amount ina system . It also thrives in Auto Immunedeficiant humans ansd animals , HAve YourVet culture for the Mold here is a linkto hte site that gives agood description of what it is andwhat it does . 

http://www.startremodeling.com/Mold_Midew_Page.htm


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## Lissa (Aug 30, 2005)

We did have a full inspection done on our homebefore we purchased it and no mold/mildew was found. Thehouse is over 100 years old. Everything has been painted sothat no lead paint is exposed. The only thing that I canpossibly think of that could be a factor is the fact that the previousowners had three dogs and one cat in the house. The carpetreaks of dog. We had it professionally cleaned and stillthere is a smell.


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## FreddysMom (Aug 30, 2005)

*Lissa wrote: *


> Wedid have a full inspection done on our home before we purchased it andno mold/mildew was found. The house is over 100 yearsold. Everything has been painted so that no lead paint isexposed. The only thing that I can possibly think of thatcould be a factor is the fact that the previous owners had three dogsand one cat in the house. The carpet reaks of dog.We had it professionally cleaned and still there is asmell.


Gypsy has brought up a very good point.

What company did the inspection? Was it recommended from theparty/bank selling the house, or your own private company you called in?

That is absolutely garbage if they told you no mold/mildew was found in the house especially if it is over 100 years old! 

My brother has a disease where the cilia that line his nose, throat andlungs do not work properly as a result he gets sick very easily and hislungs immediately fill up with mucous and collapse. also b/c of this hehas very bad allergies to mold, dust etc. this hasnt happened since hewass little it was to be kept in check with reg. medication and chestPT. now we moved into a house about 7 years ago .. and of coursethrough tests were done to check for mold b/c of his pre-exsistingcondition and they came back fine.

well .. my brothers allergies became terrible again and was sick againvery often .. we didnt think twice about mold b/c the tests came backclean ...actually we allstarted to get really often nastysinus infections....

and about a year ago we decided to remodel a few rooms b/c we werelooking to sell the house and move ... well let me tell you.. thebathrooms were first and what we found was appalling. whoever livedthere before took alot of time and money cosmetically covering theoriginal walls that were coated in a thick layer of black mold .. theentire bathroom .. the floor was so over taken that when the plywoodand tiles they put over was taken off my step dad went right thru thefloor. it was horrifying, but explained why all of were sick especiallymy brother.

the house we live in currently we brought in our own inspector who saidthere were low levels of mold/mildew nothing terrible and we have allsince been fine.

If you are thinking about remodeling .. or if it really piques yourinterest rip apart one of the walls in your bathroom. youll be verysurprised.

this said ....it may be a possibility that this is what Lenci succumbedto as well. Mold builds up quickly and causes respiratoryinfection this would be the perfect condition for pantoea agglomeransto set in...apparently the most common fruits treated withthis bacteria are apples and pears and your normal run of the milldishwashing soap wouldnt kill it.

I dont know your financial situation. but see if your vet cant test for mold build up in Izsy's lungs

ohoh and i also read that it is carried on cotton balls... (again sorryif this offends anyone) they spray cotton plants with this bacteria iswell. some heroin users filter the drug with cotton balls and often endup in the hospital with "cotton fever" pantoea agglomerans being thecause.


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## Lissa (Aug 30, 2005)

Thank you again. Since moving in Jasonand I haven't been sick or had any other problems with ourhealth. The inspector was hired by us. Now that Ithink about it, I believe it was the sellers' obligation to disclosemold, termites, etc. They signed the contract stating that totheir knowledge there was no mold exposure in the house that causedthem to get sick, etc. I will bring this up to my vet....WHEN SHE CALLS ME BACK. Ugh. :?


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##  (Aug 30, 2005)

Red flag right there Hon .

*****They signed the contract stating that( To theirknowledge) there was no mold exposure in the house that causedthem to get sick, ***** Thats all they have todisclose , 

I can say To my knowledge there areNO cockroaches ) and then allof a sudden 3 weeks later You see50 running by and you had to take my word for it .Nope I NEVER SAW ONE see what I am getting at?

Call that Vet , Harp Her plain straightto death if you have to Get theMold Culture done or betteryet go over her head and go to aqualified ER Vet. have the nose and throat swabbed. your likely to find it mostconcentrated in hte naose hairs.


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## Lissa (Aug 31, 2005)

My husband and I talked about it lastnight. He thinks it would be wise to get the carpet checkedout. It's berber carpet and God only knows how old itis. There is no padding underneath and it smells likedog. My husband used to work for a carpet cleaning servicefor quite awhile and he thinks that if there is mold in the house, it'sprobably in the carpet. And that would make sense since thebunnies are closer to the floor than we are. 

I'm still waiting for the vet to return my call. Hopefully itwill be this morning. I have a whole bunch of questions forher. 

My biggest concern right now is the size and frequency of Iszy'sdroppings. She's always had small poos, but they're abouthalf the size right now...and there are a lot of them.Thinking it might be the onset of stasis, I offered her cherrios, abanana and parsley. She ate it all. Her abdomendoes not feel hard; she is eating and drinking normally; and there areno strings of pearls. 

She's also been leaving huge piles of poo around the house.It's almost as if she can't make it to her litterbox in time.Anyone know what might be causing this? Perhaps coming offthe anti-biotics?


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## Lissa (Aug 31, 2005)

I talked to the vet. She will be starting Iszy on sulfadimethoxine on Saturday. 

Can someone tell me how to take her temperature?


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## FreddysMom (Aug 31, 2005)

berber carpet is the worst...youll fully get anystain or smell out of it .. best rip it up...do you know how the flooris underneath? you may have to actually treat the floor for stink.. ifits just plywood..def rip that up too...and if theres hardwood floorsunderneath, definately invest in gettting them fixed up..will add valueto your house and you can always put an area rug over it if you realllywant a rug.


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## Lissa (Aug 31, 2005)

We are definitely planning on getting newcarpet. It's just a matter of when we can get the money to doit. Berber carpet is terrible. I don't even thinkthere is plywood underneath the carpet, but rather old woodenfloor.


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## FreddysMom (Aug 31, 2005)

you said that house is over a 100 years old?have you had it checked out by the historical society in your area? itmay be worth more than you know ... if there are the original floorsunderneath by all means DEFINATELY get them refinished ... forget arug, put the money into the floor tremendous wonders for value of thehouse .. and then like i said before you can always throw an area rugover.


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##  (Aug 31, 2005)

Tiffany You forgot tomention the most wonderfull aspect of ahighly polished beautiful wooden floor!!!!

THE RUNNING ACROSSED IT WITH APAIR OF SOCKS ON PLANING THEFEET AND SLIDING TO THE OTHERSIDEOF THE ROOM !!!!

That is hte most fun thing inthe world to do , ermmmmunless you forget to move a coffee table,or slide too far and crash a wall, or orwell never mind we wont go there .


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## FreddysMom (Aug 31, 2005)

*gypsy wrote:*


> Tiffany You forgot to mentionthe most wonderfull aspect of a highlypolished beautiful wooden floor !!!!
> 
> THE RUNNING ACROSSED IT WITH APAIR OF SOCKS ON PLANING THEFEET AND SLIDING TO THE OTHERSIDEOF THE ROOM !!!!
> 
> That is hte most fun thing inthe world to do , ermmmmunless you forget to move a coffee table,or slide too far and crash a wall, or orwell never mind we wont go there .


LMAO !! i will NEVER grow old of doing that ..we just moved inNovember and had the floors redone .. myself and my two youngerbrothers would slip and slide for hours .... except the lil one didntunderstand why you could only go in one direction (he's 3)..and he decided to slide to the other wall and went right into thefireplace! :shock:he got a pretty good whack on thehead...and he was covered in soot ..it was hysterical .. so what doeshe do coming running after us trying to make us all dirty like him ..lil brat


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## Lissa (Aug 31, 2005)

*FreddysMom wrote:*


> you said that house is over a 100 years old? have you had itchecked out by the historical society in your area? it may be worthmore than you know ... if there are the original floors underneath byall means DEFINATELY get them refinished ... forget a rug, put themoney into the floor tremendous wonders for value of the house .. andthen like i said before you can always throw an area rug over.


There are all original floors underneath, but they're not in the best looking shape.


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## FreddysMom (Aug 31, 2005)

oh Lissa you have to do it ! ..even ifsome of the boards are damaged the ppl that come in will know whatwoods to replace with ... i cant even describe to you how beautiful itwill look when they are all done ... the building materials they usedback in the day were of such high quality like nothiing you;d see in ahouse these days. do know what the walls are made of ? probably plaster...old houses are so much fun ...get a historical society in there andif you find it a good idea to restore the house ..you can make a mintonce it comes time to refinance or if you ever decide to sell .... doyou have any pictures of it ? what kind of house is it ? victorian ..colonial? etc..


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## FreddysMom (Aug 31, 2005)

oh oh and the historical society may even havepictures of what the house used to look like (inside andout)if you chose to restore it .


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## Lissa (Aug 31, 2005)

I will think about it. hhahah

Here are some pictures.

http://www.geocities.com/the_quiet_child/miscphotos


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## Christin522 (Feb 15, 2021)

This might be a long shot since this is from 2005, but Lissa, did you ever have any luck getting this under control? My rabbit apparently has this and there is not much info about it. The vet is an exotic vet, but has never seen this before. She had to research it and said it’s plant based. I do have apple sticks I let her chew on and some supplements that are made of fruit. I’m getting rid of them as a precaution, but I don’t really have a clue what to do. The vet seems stumped. Just wondering if you ever found anything that worked?


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## Madde (Nov 28, 2021)

Christin522 said:


> This might be a long shot since this is from 2005, but Lissa, did you ever have any luck getting this under control? My rabbit apparently has this and there is not much info about it. The vet is an exotic vet, but has never seen this before. She had to research it and said it’s plant based. I do have apple sticks I let her chew on and some supplements that are made of fruit. I’m getting rid of them as a precaution, but I don’t really have a clue what to do. The vet seems stumped. Just wondering if you ever found anything that worked?



Hi Lissa and Christine! I was wondering if either of you found a cure for you’re bunnies? My beloved Holly is sick from this bacteria for the third time, and both me and the vet don’t know what to do next..


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## JBun (Nov 28, 2021)

This thread is really old, so you're not likely to get a response from the OP, though you may from the last person posting previous to you. 

Looking up the treatment for that bacteria affecting people, I found an article that mentions antibiotic treatment of cephalosporine(ceftriaxone) and azithromycin. Cephalosporins have to be given by injection to rabbits(not safe orally), but azithromycin can be given orally(though can rarely cause serious digestive upset in some rabbits). I've had good success clearing up difficult bacterial infections in some of my rabbits, using azithromycin(50mg/kg for 30 days). So this might be something you can discuss with your vet. Here's the article I read.









Pantoea agglomerans: An Elusive Contributor to Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease Exacerbation


The ubiquitously present gram-negative bacteria Pantoea agglomerans is not a commonly known human pathogen. Recently, increasing recognition of the species as a human pathogen has led to controversy as limited documented cases of P. agglomerans bacteremia and infections have been reported in the...




www.cureus.com


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## Madde (Nov 28, 2021)

JBun said:


> This thread is really old, so you're not likely to get a response from the OP, though you may from the last person posting previous to you.
> 
> Looking up the treatment for that bacteria affecting people, I found an article that mentions antibiotic treatment of cephalosporine(ceftriaxone) and azithromycin. Cephalosporins have to be given by injection to rabbits(not safe orally), but azithromycin can be given orally(though can rarely cause serious digestive upset in some rabbits). I've had good success clearing up difficult bacterial infections in some of my rabbits, using azithromycin(50mg/kg for 30 days). So this might be something you can discuss with your vet. Here's the article I read.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your response! I will definitely discuss that with my vet.


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