# Breeding question



## paul2641 (Feb 9, 2009)

Hi I want to produce lionheads that have the same pattern as suki my beautiful doe!

she is Like thisall her markings are on her back witch you can't see but I will get some more pictures of her later.

suki to get babies like this?


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## Flashy (Feb 9, 2009)

Breeding a buttfly with 'perfect' markings is VERY hard to do. You can see that I have them, and they are all not marked ideally, with the possible exception of Moon. They do have a very good genetic history as well. Given you don't know Suki's, you have no idea what her relatives look like, so that could make the outcomes even more diverse. To be honest, it's a bit like a lottery, with minimal guarantees, but obviously, the more perfect the markings of the parents, the better the chance of perfect markings in the kit (generally).


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## clevername (Feb 9, 2009)

I'm trying to get the broken gene integrated into my Satin Angora lines too. From what I've gathered so far the broken pattern is expressed via modifiers which can be inherited without necessarily inheriting the broken gene as well.(at least this is the theory)

For example, even my beautifully marked buck threw mismarks when I tried to integrate his broken gene into a line of SA that had no broken ancestry. However when I bred him to a solid who came from the same breeder she produced perfectly marked babies. So in order to get the right markings, you'll need to do some line/in breeding to accumulate the right modifiers. Or you'll need to invest in some solids brood stock who have brokens in their ancestry.

The breeder who has the COD for broken Satin Angoras told me your best bet for getting the right pattern is to make a charlie and continually select for the coat you want through charlie/solid pairings.


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## Flashy (Feb 9, 2009)

*clevername wrote: *


> I'm trying to get the broken gene integrated into my Satin Angora lines too. From what I've gathered so far the broken pattern is expressed via modifiers which can be inherited without necessarily inheriting the broken gene as well.(at least this is the theory)
> 
> For example, even my beautifully marked buck threw mismarks when I tried to integrate his broken gene into a line of SA that had no broken ancestry. However when I bred him to a solid who came from the same breeder she produced perfectly marked babies. So in order to get the right markings, you'll need to do some line/in breeding to accumulate the right modifiers. Or you'll need to invest in some solids brood stock who have brokens in their ancestry.
> 
> The breeder who has the COD for broken Satin Angoras told me your best bet for getting the right pattern is to make a charlie and continually select for the coat you want through charlie/solid pairings.


Presumably, for an incredibly novice breeder, it would be worth working with a mentor when it comes to working out the breedings you should do? To avoid too much inbreeding and problems like that?


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## clevername (Feb 9, 2009)

*Flashy wrote:*


> Presumably, for an incredibly novice breeder, it would be worth working with a mentor when it comes to working out the breedings you should do? To avoid too much inbreeding and problems like that?


Totally, if you can find one. I forgot Paul was from Ireland where people don't keep pedigrees or show that often...this would make things a bit hard.

Paul2641, any chance you breeders over there plan on changing this? I honestly can't imagine how you could keep a good breeding program without keeping track of your animal's ancestry.

Anyway, anytime you line/in breed you need to be aware of what you're passing on. You'll need to be fairly picky about who you keep for breeding because if they have any serious faults the are much more likely to passed on to future generations.


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## Flashy (Feb 9, 2009)

Thank you for clarifying that


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## irishbunny (Feb 9, 2009)

I doubt Paul would find many people to mentor him if any, no one keeps big rabbitrys like they do in the states or the UK, people usually just have a handful of rabbits that they would breed every so often, and I doubt many people would be willing to mentor a person unless they knew them, plus, most of the breeders here haven't got a clue and you wouldn't want them mentoring you.


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## paul2641 (Feb 9, 2009)

So to get a broken with white and brown spots would I breed suki to a tort or a white buck?


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## Flashy (Feb 9, 2009)

I think there are other ways to find someone to mentor you. For example, if you could find a decent breeder over the internet they could potentially mentor you and that would be far better than thinking you knew enough to go alone and stuffing up the breedings and rabbits that you did create.

No, that's not exactly how it works Paul. She will need to be bred to another butterfly (which might result in charlies- those who have two butterfly genes) or she needs to be bred to a colour (such as tort). You would only want to breed her to a REW if you knew what the REW was masking, and a BEW would bring in a compeltely different ball game because of the weirdness of those genes. But the way, this is a very limited, layman term explanation, lol, because that's the best I can do.


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## Flashy (Feb 9, 2009)

Als, if you want brown with white spots, then you are looking at what type of brown you want, i.e. tort, chocolate, agouti, etc.

Do you really think you can handle this when you struggled so much emotionally with the last litter?


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## paul2641 (Feb 9, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> Als, if you want brown with white spots, then you are looking at what type of brown you want, i.e. tort, chocolate, agouti, etc.
> 
> Do you really think you can handle this when you struggled so much emotionally with the last litter?


Well I bred Roger(tort) to suki(white with brown spots), does this bring the likelyhood of nice brokens?


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## clevername (Feb 9, 2009)

*paul2641 wrote: *


> Well I bred Roger(tort) to suki(white with brown spots), does this bring the likelyhood of nice brokens?


Paul I think the most important thing is to select for is health and type. You may get a beautifully marked kit out of this pairing (unlikely unless Roger has brokens in his background) but if that kit ends up having poor type, bad teeth or any other genetic health problem you will have to cull it in order to preserve the quality of your herd-*especially *if you'll be breeding closely related rabbits.

I'd say that if Roger doesn't have any brokens in his background you will probably get mismarks--Rabbits that carry broken, but don't have the right markings. It will take you a lot of mismarks and a lot of culls to get that nice pattern (my last litter was 90% mismarked.:rollseyes) ....but even then you can't call yourself a responsible breeder if you select good pattern over the quality of your rabbits.

Bottom line is breeding for brokens is tough. You'll need to keep pedigrees and you'll need to be able to spot what makes a good/healthy rabbit first. If your area makes this difficult, perhaps you'll need to do some traveling or start with an easier project?


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## pamnock (Feb 9, 2009)

I think that we need to review our policy again on anti-breeding sentiment in the "Rabbitry and Show Room". It was my understanding that breeding questions were allowed to be discussed under this particular forum, but yet we continue to have non-breeders discouraging breeding and harassing those asking questions about breeding.

I promote responsible breeding also, but the question asked was not "Should I breed my rabbit?" - It was "How do I get a particular variety?"


Paul, if your rabbit is atort butterfly (I don't actually know what variety your rabbit is because you didn't post a photo on this thread) and you want to get more tort butterflies, then breed to a solid tort.


Pam


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## paul2641 (Feb 9, 2009)

*clevername wrote: *


> *paul2641 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Well I bred Roger(tort) to suki(white with brown spots), does this bring the likelyhood of nice brokens?
> ...


Whycouldn't things be easy broken to broken produce brokens not charlies:rollseyes:cry1:


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## Flashy (Feb 9, 2009)

Because nothing about breeding rabbits is easy. Nothing about breeding any animal is easy, lol.

Pam, can you just clarify which of us you mean please? I hads this conversation with Peg recently, and if I personally am not welcome here, that's cool, but I'd like to know for sure.


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## clevername (Feb 9, 2009)

LOL! Do you want the long answer or the short answer?

Short: You're placing a very artificial standard on a natural process. Nature will not select this pattern for you, you will have to.

Long: Broken/butterfly is controlled by the En gene . One copy of the gene is all that is needed to have a broken rabbit, two copies will give you a charlie. 

Broken to Solid litters will yield a 50% chance of getting brokens and a 50% chance of getting solids.
Broken to Broken-50% brokens, 25% solid and 25% charlie.
Charlie to Solid- 100% brokens.

Now a broken rabbit is not necessarily a well patterned rabbit. It takes a lot of other modifiers to get that pattern right but you can increase your chances of getting it right by breeding brokens to brokens and charlies to solids with broken ancestry--but it will take some time and meticulous selection on your part.


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## BlueGiants (Feb 9, 2009)

*clevername wrote: *


> Broken to Solid litters will yield a 50% chance of getting brokens and a 50% chance of getting solids.
> Broken to Broken-50% brokens, 25% solid and 25% charlie.
> Charlie to Solid- 100% brokens.



Excellent explaination! It's not easy getting a "perfect" pattern... (and you will produce a lot of rabbits trying to achieve that artifical standard).

As Pam mentioned a solid buck would be the best option for you to start with. (And probably easier to find than a Charlie!)


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## clevername (Feb 9, 2009)

In truth the easiest way to go about it would be to breed your broken to your solid and select the very best broken to breed back to her.


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## paul2641 (Feb 9, 2009)

Omg clevername that is the first thing I have understood this whole thread and it's what I wanted to know! Thanks clevername and bluegiants!


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## clevername (Feb 9, 2009)

*paul2641 wrote: *


> Omg clevername that is the first thing I have understood this whole thread and it's what I wanted to know! Thanks clevername and bluegiants!


ok hold on. That's just the first stage.... Doing that will give you a charlie for another breeding.

I said a lot of other things. If you don't understand feel free to ask questions.


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## paul2641 (Feb 9, 2009)

*clevername wrote: *


> *paul2641 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Omg clevername that is the first thing I have understood this whole thread and it's what I wanted to know! Thanks clevername and bluegiants!
> ...


Ok I have bred suki to roger witch should produce a charlie then I just need to breed a charlie doe from that litter back to roger and I should get brokens yeah? 

ps roger is tort.


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## Flashy (Feb 9, 2009)

You won't get a charlie from a tort and a butterfly because it needs two butterfly genes, so you will only potentially get a charlie from breeding two butterflies.


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## clevername (Feb 9, 2009)

*paul2641 wrote:*


> Ok I have bred suki to roger witch should produce a charlie then I just need to breed a charlie doe from that litter back to roger and I should get brokens yeah?
> 
> ps roger is tort.


OK

You will get some brokens out of this litter. Depending on Roger they may be mismarked.

If they are, then you'll breed back to Suki which will produce some charlies.

Breed charlies to solids until you get the pattern you want. Of course you'll have more luck if you breed to solids who are also related to a broken.

I'd really suggest keeping some pedigrees....this could get messy


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## paul2641 (Feb 9, 2009)

*clevername wrote: *


> *paul2641 wrote:*
> 
> 
> > Ok I have bred suki to roger witch should produce a charlie then I just need to breed a charlie doe from that litter back to roger and I should get brokens yeah?
> ...


Do you have a site were I can like download. A blank set of pedigree papers So I can keep record?


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## Sabine (Feb 9, 2009)

*pamnock wrote: *


> I think that we need to review our policy again on anti-breeding sentiment in the "Rabbitry and Show Room". It was my understanding that breeding questions were allowed to be discussed under this particular forum, but yet we continue to have non-breeders discouraging breeding and harassing those asking questions about breeding.


As much as I agree with this in general I do believe that under certain exceptional circumstances the welfare of the animals should be our main concern rather than the fear of being confrontational.


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## clevername (Feb 9, 2009)

*paul2641 wrote: *


> Do you have a site were I can like download. A blank set of pedigree papers So I can keep record?


I use breeder's assistant to keep track of everyone. You can download a free trial here. These are full working programs, without time limit, but limited by the number of records can be added and anything you print will have 'Trial Copy' superimposed on the output.


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## pamnock (Feb 10, 2009)

*Sabine wrote: *


> *pamnock wrote: *
> 
> 
> > I think that we need to review our policy again on anti-breeding sentiment in the "Rabbitry and Show Room". It was my understanding that breeding questions were allowed to be discussed under this particular forum, but yet we continue to have non-breeders discouraging breeding and harassing those asking questions about breeding.
> ...





No one is being helped if new breeders are being alienated and are afraid to post. We do have experienced breeders on this forum who are willing to mentor and help with these type of rabbitry questions. That is the purpose of this section of the forum. 

Please note the post on this policy: NOTE: PLEASE DON'T POST UNSOLICITED ANTI-BREEDING OPINIONS IN THE RABBITRY 

Pam


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## Sabine (Feb 10, 2009)

Pam, I absolutely agree in terms of a new breeder. Nevertheless if the person asking the question has a track record of "making wrong decisions" (and I'm using this phrase as a euphemism!) then it is rather natural that a lot of people's alarm bells start ringing and it is only natural to feel concerned.
Voicing this concern is not necessarily anti breeding advice in my opinion but an attempt to move the breeding in the right direction.
I have great respect for breeders on this forum and cannot imagine they would condone behaviour that compromises animals health and wellbeing.


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## murph72 (Feb 10, 2009)

Paul, can you post pics of your bunnies on here? Having pictures of each of them with their gender would be great....I guess I got confused when you said that Suki was a broken because I thought Suki was the Sable Point pictured in your avatar. I look at the markings and colors of my rabbits to see which would make the best mates. Sorry if you posted this elsewhere on the board...it would just be helpful in making a decision.


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## paul2641 (Feb 10, 2009)

*murph72 wrote: *


> Paul, can you post pics of your bunnies on here? Having pictures of each of them with their gender would be great....I guess I got confused when you said that Suki was a broken because I thought Suki was the Sable Point pictured in your avatar. I look at the markings and colors of my rabbits to see which would make the best mates. Sorry if you posted this elsewhere on the board...it would just be helpful in making a decision.


I have pictures in my blog. But they arn't that good at showing them off, I will get some soon my sisters camera is with a friend so It will be awhile before I get any new pictures up.


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## clevername (Feb 10, 2009)

*paul2641 wrote: *


> *murph72 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Paul, can you post pics of your bunnies on here? Having pictures of each of them with their gender would be great....I guess I got confused when you said that Suki was a broken because I thought Suki was the Sable Point pictured in your avatar. I look at the markings and colors of my rabbits to see which would make the best mates. Sorry if you posted this elsewhere on the board...it would just be helpful in making a decision.
> ...


where is your blog?


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## paul2641 (Feb 10, 2009)

*clevername wrote: *


> *paul2641 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *murph72 wrote: *
> ...


It's called lions den. It is like on page2 of the blogs. We are getting more rabbits for breeding soon.


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## clevername (Feb 10, 2009)

Paul's Blog to save everyone the trouble.

Suki does appear to have good markings (assuming there is some color on her back too). Is she related to your other rabbits at all?


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## paul2641 (Feb 10, 2009)

*clevername wrote: *


> Paul's Blog to save everyone the trouble.
> 
> Suki does appear to have good markings (assuming there is some color on her back too). Is she related to your other rabbits at all?


suki has them markings on her back too:biggrin2:, I love her, as far as I know none of my rabbits are related. So do you think roger is a good buck to breed to her to produce brokens?


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## clevername (Feb 10, 2009)

*paul2641 wrote: *


> *clevername wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Paul's Blog to save everyone the trouble.
> ...


There is no way of knowing without information about his ancestry. If he comes from a line of solids, unlikely. If he has one to two broken ancestors he'd be a much better candidate.

You can do a lot with your program if you start keeping and selling rabbits with pedigrees. Think of how much easier it would be for you if the place you bought Roger from gave you papers along with him. 

How is that pedigree program working for you by the way?


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## paul2641 (Feb 10, 2009)

*clevername wrote: *


> *paul2641 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *clevername wrote: *
> ...


All my rabbits were pet store bought so no pedigrees. Well rogers brother was solid black is that good?I haven't started using that softwear yet.


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## clevername (Feb 10, 2009)

*paul2641 wrote: *


> All my rabbits were pet store bought so no pedigrees. Well rogers brother was solid black is that good?I haven't started using that softwear yet.


What I'm saying is you can START recording pedigrees with what you have. You can help other breeders who buy off you by keeping track of your own rabbit's genetics, understand? 

If Roger's sibling were a broken that would indicate that he inherited that trait from a parent--thus Roger would have brokens in his background and THAT would help. But since his brother was a solid that tells us nothing.

Try the program. It's really helped me with my rabbitry.


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## paul2641 (Feb 10, 2009)

*clevername wrote: *


> *paul2641 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > All my rabbits were pet store bought so no pedigrees. Well rogers brother was solid black is that good?I haven't started using that softwear yet.
> ...


Ok I'll start using it when I get my other rabbits for my programm!


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## TinysMom (Feb 10, 2009)

*clevername wrote: *


> *paul2641 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > All my rabbits were pet store bought so no pedigrees. Well rogers brother was solid black is that good?I haven't started using that softwear yet.
> ...



Clevername - can you please explain what I've marked in blue above? I'm not sure that I'm following what you're trying to say.

In my study of genetics - what I have come to understand and been told is correct is that if the broken gene is present at all in the genetics - it shows up as a broken rabbit. So basically....carrying broken gene = broken rabbit (butterfly rabbit).,

Now I have talked to someone who bred broken Hollands for a number of years and she talked about something that she had noticed and that was - if she took a solid rabbit that was out of a litter that had a broken parent...that there were modifiers (I forget what she called it) that helped to make the broken pattern better when that solid rabbit was bred to a broken rabbit. It wasn't that the rabbit carried the broken gene though - it was that it somehow carried those modifiers? I'm not overly clear on that and am not breeding any more so I did not research it further.

Is that what you are referring to up above? If so - I'd love to learn more about that - and I'm wondering if I can get Pam Nock to come in here and explain some of that since she is truly our genetics guru...

Anyway - I just thought I'd ask you for clarification.


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## clevername (Feb 10, 2009)

*TinysMom wrote:*


> Now I have talked to someone who bred broken Hollands for a number of years and she talked about something that she had noticed and that was - if she took a solid rabbit that was out of a litter that had a broken parent...that there were modifiers (I forget what she called it) that helped to make the broken pattern better when that solid rabbit was bred to a broken rabbit. It wasn't that the rabbit carried the broken gene though - it was that it somehow carried those modifiers? I'm not overly clear on that and am not breeding any more so I did not research it further.


Yes, that's exactly what I'm talking about.

Paul is asking how to get _well marked_ brokens not just rabbits expressing the broken gene. 

Modifiers that shape the rabbit's pattern can be inherited without necessarily inheriting the broken gene. So if you have a solid who has ideally marked brokens in their background, that rabbit can be bred to another correctly marked broken to increase the chances of producing well patterned offspring.

I'm currently trying to get the broken gene expressed correctly in my Satin Angora lines so I'm still learning too. If anyone has anything to add to this discussion that would be really helpful!


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## paul2641 (Feb 10, 2009)

*clevername wrote: *


> *TinysMom wrote:*
> 
> 
> > Now I have talked to someone who bred broken Hollands for a number of years and she talked about something that she had noticed and that was - if she took a solid rabbit that was out of a litter that had a broken parent...that there were modifiers (I forget what she called it) that helped to make the broken pattern better when that solid rabbit was bred to a broken rabbit. It wasn't that the rabbit carried the broken gene though - it was that it somehow carried those modifiers? I'm not overly clear on that and am not breeding any more so I did not research it further.
> ...


Well this will be sukis 2nd litter and her first litter the baby that reached a week had a broken pattern on him, could this mean roger actaully carries broken gene?


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## clevername (Feb 10, 2009)

*paul2641 wrote: *


> Well this will be sukis 2nd litter and her first litter the baby that reached a week had a broken pattern on him, could this mean roger actaully carries broken gene?


If he is solid he doesn't carry broken.

What kind of pattern? Ideal? Too much or too little white?

If it had to little (like a blaze on the forehead or a dot of white here or there) Roger isn't an ideal match.

If it had markings over its eyes, ears, and nose with some color over the back, Roger has the modifiers needed to produce correct brokens--assuming he was the sire of Suki's last litter.


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## paul2641 (Feb 10, 2009)

*clevername wrote: *


> *paul2641 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Well this will be sukis 2nd litter and her first litter the baby that reached a week had a broken pattern on him, could this mean roger actaully carries broken gene?
> ...


He was poppa, the baby had pretty much the same markings as suki. But they were black, But this was just on the body fur had only just be gone to grow.


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## clevername (Feb 10, 2009)

*paul2641 wrote: *


> He was poppa, the baby had pretty much the same markings as suki. But they were black, But this was just on the body fur had only just be gone to grow.


Roger must carry the correct modifiers to produce nice brokens then


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## paul2641 (Feb 10, 2009)

*clevername wrote: *


> *paul2641 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > He was poppa, the baby had pretty much the same markings as suki. But they were black, But this was just on the body fur had only just be gone to grow.
> ...


Roger has black marks on his skin like this baby, but he is fully tort, why is this?


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## TinysMom (Feb 10, 2009)

Torts are frequently called "Black torts" (unless they're blue torts, chocolate torts or lilac torts) - and it is those black markings that make them black torts. 

Here are some pictures of brokens - I don't remember what your baby looked like...sorry....but these should help.

Notice how distinct their markings are...






even the not as well marked ones - still have nice markings





Here they are with a black tort from an older litter...she was like, "Can I get outta here now?"





Even as newborns - you could see very distinct markings


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## TinysMom (Feb 10, 2009)

For some reason - I know I haven't looked at your blog - but for some reason - I was thinking Suki was a sable point and not a broken (from the pics I've seen). I will try to check out your blog later or see if you have other pictures of her - I've only seen her face I think...I don't know. I may have her mixed up with someone else.


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## TinysMom (Feb 10, 2009)

Ah - I just checked your blog - I guess I was thinking of another bunny as she is definitely broken. 

Looks like you're going to have the same problem I have with brokens (and most lionhead breeders do here too) - and that is - having the teddy gene too so that they're super fluffy...not lionhead looking.

Some breeders have cleaned this up a bit by breeding with single mane lionheads - but it does seem to be an issue here in the states....I've only had two or three that weren't fuzzy like Suki. 

Just something I thought I'd share - that you will probably have a hard time getting non-teddies that are broken!


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## Sabine (Feb 10, 2009)

Is "black tort" the same as "sooty fawn"?


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## paul2641 (Feb 10, 2009)

*TinysMom wrote: *


> Torts are frequently called "Black torts" (unless they're blue torts, chocolate torts or lilac torts) - and it is those black markings that make them black torts.
> 
> Here are some pictures of brokens - I don't remember what your baby looked like...sorry....but these should help.
> 
> ...


Roger is defo a teddy lionhead, but as far as I can make out suki doesn't have the teddybear all over her body? Ohh and her baby that had the markings looked just like them but with a thicker line down the back.


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## pamnock (Feb 10, 2009)

*TinysMom wrote: *


> It wasn't that the rabbit carried the broken gene though - it was that it somehow carried those modifiers? I'm not overly clear on that and am not breeding any more so I did not research it further.
> 
> Is that what you are referring to up above? If so - I'd love to learn more about that - and I'm wondering if I can get Pam Nock to come in here and explain some of that since she is truly our genetics guru...
> 
> Anyway - I just thought I'd ask you for clarification.



As far as I have read, the degree in which the broken pattern expresses itself is only passed on through the various degrees of the broken gene itself and its effect on the migration of melanocytes during neural crest migration. A solid does not inherit the broken gene, so has no effect on future litters of brokens.

It is most likely that just as there is more than 1 rex gene and more than 1 dutch gene, that there is probably more than 1 broken gene. We can see a wide range of expression from minimal white "booteds" to minimal color "charlies".While booteds are common in Mini Rex, they are never seen in some other breeds,meaning that the broken gene and its degree of expression may be due to a number ofdifferent broken genes.



Pam


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## clevername (Feb 11, 2009)

*pamnock wrote:*


> As far as I have read, the degree in which the broken pattern expresses itself is only passed on through the various degrees of the broken gene itself and its effect on the migration of melanocytes during neural crest migration. A solid does not inherit the broken gene, so has no effect on future litters of brokens.
> 
> It is most likely that just as there is more than 1 rex gene and more than 1 dutch gene, that there is probably more than 1 broken gene. We can see a wide range of expression from minimal white "booteds" to minimal color "charlies".While booteds are common in Mini Rex, they are never seen in some other breeds,meaning that the broken gene and its degree of expression may be due to a number ofdifferent broken genes.
> 
> ...


I'd be interested in reading where you found this information as I'm trying to develop some brokens in my Satin Angora line.

So far I've used one well marked buck to with 3 different does. 2 of which were of a line with no broken ancestry, and 1 who was. The 2 from the non broken line threw kits with boots and small white blazes. The doe from the broken line threw well marked brokens (like dad).

If the pattern were truly tied to the inheritance of the broken gene(s?) One would expect the results to be similar regardless of the does ancestry since the En gene could only be passed through the sire, right? Or is there some other way to explain this?

Anyway the modifier theory is something Joan Hastings (Holder of the COD for Broken Satin Angora) told me. I havn't read other sources to back it up so I have no idea how true it is....but I figured since it was working for her I'd run with it.


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## aurora369 (Feb 11, 2009)

I just have to say that I am really enjoying reading all this information. I barely understand most of it, genetics is not my thing, but a little bit is making its way into my brain.

I think this type of technical discussion is really beneficial to have around. The explanation of how to properly breed for a goal is great to have around for reference. 

I know that about 4 years ago, I was considering breeding and even bred Wildfire twice. It was from reading threads like this one that I learned what was involved in being responsible, and decided that I could not provide that level of dedication. I think that these kinds of threads provide the best help to those looking to improve their breeding practices.

Good job everyone!! Keep up the great discussion!

--Dawn


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## paul2641 (Feb 11, 2009)

The babies are born with these broken patterns yeah? Suki is due on the 22nd lets see how she does!


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## Numbat (Feb 11, 2009)

I agree with you Aurora! It's interesting to learn about this stuff.

Oh good, I was just about to ask when Suki was due Paul!  Good luck!


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## pamnock (Feb 11, 2009)

*clevername wrote: *


> *pamnock wrote:*I'd be interested in reading where you found this information as I'm trying to develop some brokens in my Satin Angora line.
> 
> So far I've used one well marked buck to with 3 different does. 2 of which were of a line with no broken ancestry, and 1 who was. The 2 from the non broken line threw kits with boots and small white blazes. The doe from the broken line threw well marked brokens (like dad).
> 
> ...




You'll find the most info on the genetics involved in broken patterns in research on mice. Each broken rabbit will carry modifiers that will effect the pattern. Solids have the gene that allows full migration of melanocytes, so they can't have an influence on restriction and placement of migration like the brokens do.

The differences in markings in your broken vs solid lines is only going to be based on the genes that the brokens carry. Selective breeding can help to "set" a pattern, although some variability will still be present.

Pam


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## clevername (Feb 11, 2009)

*pamnock wrote: *


> The differences in markings in your broken vs solid lines is only going to be based on the genes that the brokens carry. Selective breeding can help to "set" a pattern, although some variability will still be present.
> 
> Pam


So the fact my buck keeps throwing mismarks when paired with certain solid does is a fluke? Or is there something to actually explain this?

To me, if he spit out perfectly marked kits from one breeding, that proves he's capable of passing on that correct pattern. Plus his track record seems to indicate that mis marks only occur with certain does. At the very least the doe's genetics must has SOME impact on how the broken gene is expressed. Given the history, I feel like I'd be wasting my time if I kept breeding well patterned brokens to them.

Here's the run down:
Broken Buck X Solid Doe (solid line)- 3/9 broken Pattern is limited to a small blaze on the head, chest and feet.

Broken Buck X Solid Doe (solid line)- 7/8 broken Pattern is limited to a small blaze on the head, chest and feet.

Broken Buck X Solid Doe(broken ancestry) -2/7 broken both Patterns resembles Sire's


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## Flashy (Feb 11, 2009)

I find this fascinating. It makes me wonder about Sandy's litter, and Sandy's genetics. All the butterfly kits had similar markings to either dad, each other, or grandad, which I thought was pretty cool. This thread is teacing me a huge amount


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## clevername (Feb 11, 2009)

Here's a mismarked that came out of the first litter (I kept her as a wooler), all the brokens out of this line look like this. See how small the blaze is? Her entire body was colored save for her feet and chest.


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## pamnock (Feb 11, 2009)

*clevername wrote: *


> Here's the run down:
> Broken Buck X Solid Doe (solid line)- 3/9 broken Pattern is limited to a small blaze on the head, chest and feet.
> 
> Broken Buck X Solid Doe (solid line)- 7/8 broken Pattern is limited to a small blaze on the head, chest and feet.
> ...



To get atrue statistical representation, you'll need to compare the results of 100 breedings rather than just the results of a few breedings.

Pam


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## clevername (Feb 11, 2009)

*pamnock wrote:*


> To get atrue statistical representation, you'll need to compare the results of 100 breedings rather than just the results of a few breedings.
> 
> Pam


Yes I know. But I'm not going to do 100 breedings just to find out. I don't need that many rabbits

This was the result of my own project and they were later confirmed by a more experienced breeder working on the same project. That's enough for me until I see better evidence to the contrary.


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## bunnybunbunb (Feb 11, 2009)

Looks to me as though maybe the sire carries missmark? Brokens hide missmarks good. I do not know what was used to breed in the brokens but is there any possiblity the buck carries BEW? It is not uncomman for a line to carry BEW and not show markings or blue eyes. I had a line just like this. The doe was bred to her sire, both of which showed neither, and I ended with BEW. The same buck was bred to a diffrent doe but from the same line and again it ended in BEW. I was puzzled. When bred to a doe that did not carry BEW 50% of all litters where missmarked but still no blue eyes. The only one of the many that did not show missmark that carried it did actually show missmark. I got to looking and she had some white hairs on her lips.


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## BlueGiants (Feb 11, 2009)

:shock: Well Clevername, I guess that buck is going to be busy!


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## clevername (Feb 11, 2009)

Well there are no BEWs in his immediate ancestry(3 generations)...not to say it's impossible, just that it's been hidden for a long time if its there.

If these are vienna marked kits that would be just it. But then there would be no brokens at all in those two litters which is statistically unlikely.

As it stands the broken buck will get bred back to by one of his mismarked daughters. If I get BEWs we'll know then what's going on. Otherwise I'll have my charlie for another breeding.

Yes, Bacon (my broken buck) will be giving a lot of tender loving to the ladies.


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## Numbat (Feb 16, 2009)

*Bounce, bounce* 6 days to go! I'm so excited for you!


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## paul2641 (Feb 16, 2009)

*Numbat wrote: *


> *Bounce, bounce* 6 days to go! I'm so excited for you!


It could have been just me but I think I felt them yesterday! CAN'T wait!! Just got a feeling all of this litter will survive. ray:


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## Numbat (Feb 17, 2009)

That's great! I really hope so.


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