# Protein and Molts?



## Pipp (Mar 22, 2010)

Okay nutritionists (or anybody else!)

Does more protein cut down the time of a molt? 

Just reading this: 

_If your rabbit is molting, give it a small handful of alfalfa hay. Since alfalfa hay is higher in protein, it will up the metabolism and cause the old fur to molt out quicker. Once the new coat of fur starts becoming established, switch the alfalfa out for timothy thereby lowering the protein level. This helps prevent new fur from pushing the old fur out, holding that nice beautiful coat of fur you were trying to get your rabbit to have and keep. 

_
Also, what's the physical downside to too much protein?


sas


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## pamnock (Mar 22, 2010)

Too much protein over a period of time can extend the molt and lend to a "thrifty" condition.

Excess protein requires additional work by the kidneys to excrete the harmful urea produced during protein metabolism. This requires drinking higher amounts of water. Excess protein intake can lead to dehydration. Excess protein also causes addition calcium excretion contributing to bladder sludge.

In older rabbits, excess protein is especially hard on the kidneys and can contribute to glomerular sclerosis.


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## Pipp (Mar 22, 2010)

pamnock wrote:


> Too much protein over a period of time can extend the molt and lend to a "thrifty" condition.
> 
> Excess protein requires additional work by the kidneys to excrete the harmful urea produced during protein metabolism. This requires drinking higher amounts of water. Excess protein intake can lead to dehydration. Excess protein also causes addition calcium excretion contributing to bladder sludge.
> 
> In older rabbits, excess protein is especially hard on the kidneys and can contribute to glomerular sclerosis.



You're too awesome. :bouquet: 


sas :big kiss:


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## devilishblueyes (Mar 23, 2010)

I agree with what Pamnock said. And that's coming from a pretty good source if Pamnock is an ARBA judge. I have an article that Doc Reed wrote on this subject years ago. The increased protein should help cause the rabbit to molt quicker, but giving protein beyond a certain point doesn't really make the rabbit molt any quicker. The rabbit will use what protein it can absorb. The excess protein gets excreted out of the rabbit's system in the urine. This causes the rabbit to have to pee more and the Nitrogen from the protein can cause there to be more urea. So yes, as Pamnock said your rabbit will probably have to drink more water. So once you get to the point where the rabbit is peeing excess protein out, it doesn't do any good to give a higher percentage of protein. And on older rabbits that can be hard on them. 

Also, while protein itself won't make a rabbit fat, it is a high energy ingredient in your rabbit's diet. When your rabbits eat carbohydrates the excess energy from carbohydrates normally gets stored as fat. So if your rabbit is getting all of the energy it needs already from the protein, the carbohydrates it eats may get stored as fat, tending to make your rabbit fat because that energy from the carbohydrates is excess energy. This also factors into the fat or lipid ingredients because unused fat energy gets stores as fat. In my animal nutrition classes they would say "fat goes to fat." 

As far as feeding Alfalfa hay, that really may not increase the protein level of your rabbit's diet. In the book "Rabbit Feeding and Nutrition", the author states that alfalfa hay contains 15.3% crude protein. If you do a web search on crude protein in alfalfa hay you'll find that many studies have been done. The studies tend to state that the crude protein level will vary depending upon the time of bloom when the hay is harvested, the cutting, and even how many years that hay has been planted. The results seem to vary. I think the variance mainly has to do with what percentage of leaves to stems the hay has. The protein is mainly contained within the leaves of the plant. The stem is mainly fiber and has little protein. Leaves will tend to fall off the hay and not get bailed if the hay is let to sit too long in the field. You will also notice that red clover hay tends to have higher crude protein levels than alfalfa hay. "Rabbit Feeding and Nutrition" states that it 17.3% crude protein. That is 2% more than alfalfa hay. Red clover hay also tends to have bigger leaves than alfalfa hay and may be comprised of more leaf portion compared to alfalfa.

Most rabbit feeds average about 16% crude protein. So if you are trying to up the protein by feeding alfalfa hay, you are actually probably decreasing the protein level. With red clover hay you may be increasing it.

Doc Reed mentions feeding rabbits "milk pellets" to temporarily increase the protein level. And to also increase the oils the rabbit gets to help improve the fur. Some oils that rabbit breeders tend to use are wheat germ oil, peanut oil, and sunflower oil. Wheat germ oil is also a good source of Vitamin E which helps with fertility. Milk pellets are given to other animals typically to help increase milk production and therefore are high in protein. Adding a teaspoon or so to the pellets could help increase the protein your rabbit gets. Some rabbit breeders will alsoadd Calf Manna which is also high in protein to help add a little extra protein to the diet. 

When you increase the protein your rabbit will be molting faster. Rabbit hair is made of protein. When you give your rabbit more protein it tends to produce new hairs faster, pushing the old hairs out. Those loose old hairs need to be brushed out. For about a minute or so every day the rabbit should be brushed out by hand. Lightly wet your hands with water then rub the hands from front to back. The loose hair will stick to your hands. Just rub your hands together to remove the hair on your hands. Unless you have a wool breed rabbit don't use a brush. Brushes will damage the hair follicles and pull out non-loose hairs which you don't want to do.

If you are doing something like this for a show, timing of when you start is key. Because you want your rabbit to molt out all of that old fur by the time the show comes around. Then once your rabbit has that new bright shiny coat of fur, you still keep feeding the oils according to Doc Reed, but you reduce the protein.You can do that by pulling away the milk pellets and even feeding a little timothy hay which is lower in crude protein at about 9% crude protein or so.

Also be careful of the show enhancers. There are two main Enhancers out there that you can add to the feeds. The one created by Doc Reed is "Doc's Rabbit Enhancer". The other main one is called "Showbloom". These two rabbit ration additives are completely at opposite extremes. The website below lists both of them:

https://bunnyrabbit.com/price/supplements.htm

When you click for more info on both, take a look at the minimum crude protein level on both. Doc's has 14%. That is low. Show bloom has 30%. That is very high. Show bloom is more made for blowing that coat real quick and getting in a new coat of fur due to its high protein level. Doc's is just the opposite. Once your rabbit gets that good coat of fur you feed his and it will help keep that coat of fur in place. If you kept feeding Showbloom after your rabbit got that great coat of fur it would likely blow that great coat in no time because that high protein would create new hairs, pushing out the coat of fur you want to keep.

So its good to learn what the different ingredients and types of nutrition do.


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## pamnock (Apr 23, 2010)

Came across this in my reading tonight:

"Too-high protein leads to high costs, high urea, high NH3 (ammonia) formation, more urine and more humidity, and through increased gut pH, perhaps more enteritis."

The Biology and Medicine of Rabbits and Rodents 4th edition pg. 19


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Apr 23, 2010)

Most companion pet owners don't really desire to control molts (as far as I know) since they come and go in reasonable time, most of the time. But I do know that breeders will sometimes like to speed up molts to have rabbits ready for particular shows and such.

One way to do this is to increase protein, as mentioned.

A lot of breeders also worm their rabbits and have found that this generally induces (or speeds up an already existing) molt.

As mentioned, an increase in protein can be unhealthy, depending on how you do it. But worming is really only a preventative and may be a better option if you wish to move your rabbit through a molt. Plus, the worming definitely doesn't hurt...big hay eaters should probably be done occasionally anyway! 

This may have been a hypothetical question to begin with though so if so...just more food for thought.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Apr 23, 2010)

My 4-H leader suggests giving rabbits a couple pieces of dog food (just once during a molt) and it pushes the rabbit through their molt in 1 1/2 to 2 weeks. 

I haven't tried it yet myself, and was going to before next weekend's show, but by now it's too late and if I fed them it, they'd probably be in awful molt during the show, whereas right now, they aren't molting too bad. 

My leader said any brand of dog food works - Beneful would probably be the best for rabbits since it's very natural and has lots of veggies and fruits in it. 

Emily


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## Shaded Night Rabbitry (Apr 23, 2010)

Oh my god. I saw 'next weekends show,' and it finally hit me how close the fair is. Gaaaah.

As far as molting goes: I have no idea. XD To be honest, out of ten rabbits and six months of having them, I've only had one adult molt. The rest were minimal changing from baby to adult furishstuff.

Uuuh. yeah. XD


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## pamnock (Apr 23, 2010)

Beneful is primarily corn (as are most dog foods). A little won't hurt anything, but I wouldn't feed too much. 

Calf Mana is a high protein supplement that most rabbit people use for a protein boost (such as for lactating does). Black oil sunflowers seeds are also commonly used.


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## luvthempigs (Apr 23, 2010)

*OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *


> A lot of breeders also worm their rabbits and have found that this generally induces (or speeds up an already existing) molt.
> 
> As mentioned, an increase in protein can be unhealthy, depending on how you do it. But worming is really only a preventative and may be a better option if you wish to move your rabbit through a molt. Plus, the worming definitely doesn't hurt...big hay eaters should probably be done occasionally anyway!



How often do you worm? What are you worming with? Ivermectin? And what kinda bugs/worms are you trying to get rid of? 

I'm curious if rabbits are (or should be) wormed routinely like horses are?


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Apr 23, 2010)

*luvthempigs wrote: *


> *OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *
> 
> 
> > A lot of breeders also worm their rabbits and have found that this generally induces (or speeds up an already existing) molt.
> ...


I personally don't worm routinely because I don't like treating my animals unless I actually suspect a problem.

Those who do worm most commonly use Ivermectin. I believe the dosage is one pea-sized amount once a day for 3-5 days to prevent (or get rid of) intestinal parasites.

I have wormed once or twice when I suspected worms and I bought alfalfa pellets that included wormer, made for cattle. I think they are 0.5% fenbendazole. They are the size of normal rabbit pellets and I gave one pellet per lb. of body weight daily for about 3-5 days.

Some people worm their rabbits regularly (every 6-8 months) since they can get worms from their hay source. But like I said, I choose not to medicate at all unless I suspect issues. So it's personal preference, you'll hear opinions either way.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Apr 23, 2010)

*pamnock wrote: *


> Beneful is primarily corn (as are most dog foods). A little won't hurt anything, but I wouldn't feed too much.
> 
> Calf Mana is a high protein supplement that most rabbit people use for a protein boost (such as for lactating does). Black oil sunflowers seeds are also commonly used.



Oh yeah definitely wasn't planning on it. I think one piece is enough to do the trick, and with only like2 major molts a year, that's not bad. 

Would oatmeal oats work for conditioning/pushing through molts?

Emily


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Apr 23, 2010)

Julie, what type of Ivermectin do you buy? Is it the liquid stuff or the shot form? Or whatever is used on sheep (can't remember which way my sheep were wormed...)

Emily


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## Runestonez (Apr 24, 2010)

The reason I find this interesting is less about showing and more about 10 indoor rabbits who are all shedding right now!:shock:

Darwin in particular has been in the middle of a moult for 2 weeks! He is killing me...I changed their food to a higher protein...a little higher...a week ago...so far with no results...the protien is at about 18%...I don't want to go any higher really.

Our kids moult like blazes for 3-4 weeks...finish up and start again...we are always moulting!:scared: My dream is to wake up one morning and NOT have to vacuum the whole darned house top to bottom BEFORE I have my coffee!:grumpy

That and I know they are itchy and not very happy...they don't mind the occasional groom...but really...twice a week...seriously...I have been getting the dirtiest bunny looks!

The only time we ever had to de-worm was for pin worms with one of our rescues...eewww is all I have to say...and double eeewww to cecotrophy during that period in time!:vomit:

Danielle


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## AngelnSnuffy (Apr 24, 2010)

Eww, haha, yeah, I'm dreading moulting for one bun, lol.:whistling But he moults enough for two?


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## luvthempigs (Apr 24, 2010)

*Runestonez wrote: *


> The reason I find this interesting is less about showing and more about 10 indoor rabbits who are all shedding right now!:shock:



I hear you on that one! The only good thing is that my bunnies are confined to their own room which helps keep the rest of the houseclean.And I also ripped out all the carpeting years ago. Got sick of cleaning it and it's much easier to wash or sweep a wood or tile floor 

Julie, Thanks for the info on worming. I wasn't sure if rabbits had a small number of intestinalparasites that they normally carried and would need to be wormed routinely (again I am thinking on the lines of caring for horses since that was something I did for so many years, we wormed every 2-3 months)


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Apr 24, 2010)

*BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote: *


> Julie, what type of Ivermectin do you buy? Is it the liquid stuff or the shot form? Or whatever is used on sheep (can't remember which way my sheep were wormed...)
> 
> Emily


I was talking about the Ivermectin paste. I looked through the HLRSC (Holland Lop Rabbit Specialty Club) articles and one breeder suggested using bovine strength Ivomec *orally*, 0.10cc which is the reccommended dose for a 4-5 lb. rabbit. She said not to do a subcutaneous injection, as it can burn and cause discomfort. So it looks like, either way, you'll want to administer it orally.

The only thing I've personally used is the fenbendazole pellets. I just handfed the pellets and they took them right away. Or you can mix them into normal pellet rations for a bun who won't eat out of your hand.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Apr 24, 2010)

*luvthempigs wrote: *


> Julie, Thanks for the info on worming. I wasn't sure if rabbits had a small number of intestinalparasites that they normally carried and would need to be wormed routinely (again I am thinking on the lines of caring for horses since that was something I did for so many years, we wormed every 2-3 months)



Well, the reason people worm is because rabbits can carry worms. And when you're breeding/showing, the rabbits come into contact with a lot of other rabbits. So preventative worming is a normal practice "just to be sure".

With a closed herd of breeding rabbits or pet rabbits, it's probably less necessary. But if the rabbits spend a good amount of time outside in the grass, it may be best to worm once in awhile. Or like I said, I've heard that they can get worms from their hay. I'm not sure how much I believe that since the hay is dry, which is why worming isn't a general practice for me. I don't show enough to be chronically concerned.Just when I suspect an actual issue.


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## pamnock (Apr 25, 2010)

Internal parasites of the domestic rabbit:

http://www.gopetsamerica.com/small-animals/rabbit/internal-parasites-rabbits.aspx


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## funnybunnymummy (Apr 25, 2010)

I also tried increasing the amount of protein Gus was getting in order to speed up his moulting. It seemed to actually stall his moult for 2 weeks, then it started up again. Doesn't seem to be moulting any faster than usual, though. 

Maybe I didn't increase the amount of protein he was getting enough?

Anyway, I too, would love it if he'd stop moulting for even just a few weeks! anic:

Rue


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## pamnock (Apr 25, 2010)

Theremay be any number of issues contributing to the lengthy molt. Personally, I don't increase protein. I give greens and a little carrots and apple while they are going through the molt (as well as a little hay). Increasing temperatures a little can also push them through a molt.


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## devilishblueyes (Apr 26, 2010)

I'm not one to give much in the way of greens to my rabbits. Too much in the way of greens tends to give them diarrhea. And stuff like carrots and apples are high in sugars and carbohydrates which can make the rabbit get fat. A rabbit with a loose hide or that is molting will not show very well. There are a few things I look at when I look at why a rabbit is molting:

#1. The genetics. Some rabbits just molt more. On some of my rabbits I can tell from a very young age if they will have bad fur or not. In my New Zealands, I don't like rabbits that have a slight curl to their hair shaft. They seem to have longer hair and their hair shaft seems to have a slight curl giving it a rougher texture. Those rabbits tend to molt more. The rabbits I have with shorter, straight hair shafts seem to have better fur. And the rabbits with better fur tend to throw rabbits with better fur.

#2 Parasites - If your rabbit has parasites in the fur such as fur mites or fleas, you won't be able to get good fur no matter how hard you try unless you treat that with something like ivermectin and preventative practices. Don't store your hay or straw above the rabbit cage. That is asking for mites or other parasites. My dad would do that and I'd see these little black specks of parasites after he did that in their white fur. And when I'd see those, they'd never have good fur at that time. The specks were too small for my dad to see. Also, don't let your rabbits run around on the ground like out in the garden or yard. The ground is full of parasites to infect your rabbit's fur. That's why cats and dogs have flea collars.

#3: A good diet - The diet has to be match to the breed and herd you are raising. A diet that works for one breed or herd won't necessarily work for another. When I raised Checkered Giants they did great on Wayne's Feed, but on my Californians and New Zealands they just got fat and molted on it. That's because it had too much energy and corn. If the person you get rabbits off of shows rabbits and does well, copy how they feed. Then you already know a way to feed that has proven it works. I always ask what the person feeds and how they feed when I buy a rabbit off of them. Feeding the same also makes the rabbit less likely to go off its feed when you bring it home.

#4: Consistency & cleanliness - A sick rabbit won't have good fur. The best way to keep a rabbit from getting sick is to feed at the same time every day and to keep the pen clean. Being clean and consistent will help keep your rabbit healthy and when the rabbit is healthy it is more likely to have good fur.

#5: Pick a good spot to keep your rabbits. I think one of the best spots to keep a rabbit is probably in a valley in the woods. It may sound crazy, but its not. An area like that stays a nice consistent cool temperature in the summer, perfect for keeping that fur in condition for a rabbit show.

#6: Also remember that it does no good to try pushing a rabbit more quickly through a molt if you don't brush them out. Otherwise you just get a big mess. You have to remove the old dead fur so the new fur can come in. It may seem like a lot of work, but it takes less than about 1 minute each day for a rabbit. But it needs to be done each day for about 1-2 months.


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