# What do you breeders think of this pair for breeding?



## Sarah93 (Jun 7, 2010)

_Hey everyone 
So as some of you may know I recently got these two adorable eight week old baby lionheads, about nine weeks now.
So I plan on having them as my pets but also breeding.
What do you think of them as the a pair?
As you can see my buck is a vienna marked and my doe is a sablepoint but she is also a vienna carrier because her father was a vienna marked.
I also hope to get a doe out of a BEW and a broken pair here eventually. 
I am trying to get vienna marks and brokens/BEWs in my litters because I think they are the most adorable.

But some breeders have told me I wouldn't be able to sell their offspring as show at all? 
Even if the one they get isnt vienna marked or broken?
I suppose that doesnt really bother me because I am just doing this because I wanted bunnies as pets and the breeding as a hobby. I also want to give other bunny lovers out there adorable baby bunnies that are good temperared, good in form and have adorable colors.
What do you all think?
Thanks! 

Sarah_

So the sablepoint is my doe Lea, the vienna marked buck is Aslan. 







What is this?? Its not like the rest...? lol






You can tell they're bored of me already 











Don't worry, I've made their home more interesting sine this picture. With a box to hangout in with lots of hay and I've added a litter box...putting their new and improved corner one in tonight though...With critter litter 





Aslan hanging out with the breeders son before I got him 









Checking out the camera while hanging out on my lap


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## countrybuns (Jun 7, 2010)

As far as breeding a vienna marked rabbit goes they are unshowable, the vienna carriers can be shown although not sure what an orange and sable point would give you color wise so that has an impact too. Really the only reason to breed vienna marked is if you are starting a BEW program other than that you are just adding more rabbits to the pet population that is already overwhelming. just my $0.02 though.


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## Sarah93 (Jun 7, 2010)

Yeah, well you say the pet population is over whelming as it is...but the lionheads are a brand new breed to America.
So its over whelming for them too?
I dont know, I'm not planning on claiming that they can be shown or anything. 
And you say a vienna carrier can be shown, so if I get a solid from this pair it cant be shown?
When it will only be a vienna carrier?


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## RabbitLover94 (Jun 7, 2010)

Ummm...she might not be a Vienna carrier. If the dad was vienna marked his genotype is Vv. The mom(i'm guessing) was a regular colored rabbit with the genotype VV. So she could be regular by getting a V from the mom and a V from the dad. VV is normal, Vv is vienna marked/carrier, and vv is BEW.


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## Shaded Night Rabbitry (Jun 7, 2010)

Orange and Sable Point are not two colors that go good together. I can't recall the genotype at the moment, and my evans computer is in the shop, but... Yeah.

The Orange is also Vienna marked. As previously said, will create about 50/50 mismarked babies when bred. While it's better to use them in a BEW breeding program, they can be outcrossed to others. You just have to watch out for random blue eyes, and white marks.

Sable Point is also no longer an accepted variety in Lionheads, unless something has changed in the last two weeks.

Anywho. I'd recommend getting either a shaded program, or a BEW program, if you're really interested in breeding these animals. If you're just going to breed for pet quality, these two would be fine. They'll produce adorable babies, with amazing blue eyes, but nothing showable, and not much worth as broods unless it's for a BEW program.


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## TinysMom (Jun 7, 2010)

*Sarah93 wrote: *


> Yeah, well you say the pet population is over whelming as it is...but the lionheads are a brand new breed to America.
> 
> Lionheads have been around for over 5 years now - even though they're not an ACCEPTED breed with ARBA - they've been around quite a while.
> 
> ...


One last thing - you never want to bring your line that carries vienna carriers into your brokens. 

Brokens breeders will buy (if the quality of the rabbit is good) - but most breeders will stay from anything that has any chance of vienna gene in it (unless they're doing blue eyed whites) because it might mess up their breeding program.

I highly recommend that anyone considering breeding lionheads do a LOT of research first into what colors go well together - what the standard is (and what lionheads are going towards for looks) - etc. etc.


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## countrybuns (Jun 7, 2010)

*Sarah93 wrote: *


> Yeah, well you say the pet population is over whelming as it is...but the lionheads are a brand new breed to America.
> So its over whelming for them too?
> I dont know, I'm not planning on claiming that they can be shown or anything.
> And you say a vienna carrier can be shown, so if I get a solid from this pair it cant be shown?
> When it will only be a vienna carrier?



All I was saying is that while Lionheads are a new breed, many breeders are working hard to improve their quality in order to have them fully ARBA recognized one day. If you are planning to show them which you mentioned shows in your post or if you want to add to the breed then it is worth doing your research on type, colour crossing and all of that good stuff so that you are adding to the betterment of the breed rather than just making more bunnies.



to explain the vienna thing: those two would probably produce half vienna marked which is where the baby has the white marks like your orange vienna marked rabbit, these are unshowable and would either be pets or good for a BEW program. the other half would be carriers so although you wouldn't see the markings on them they would likely pass that on to their offspring they could be shown in theory. but then you have the fact that you are breeding a sable point to an orange which I am unsure of what that would get you but could make your carriers unshowable still.



sorry for the poor grammar i am holding my nursing baby lol


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## dixonsrabbitry1 (Jun 7, 2010)

Lion heads are not anew breed. They have been in the works for several years by many very good breeders. Unfortunately there are also tons of them in the pet market as well. Most of those are culled bunnies that don't meet the standard. they are also not approved as a purebred show rabbit through the ARBA. To be honest, I am not sure if they can no longer be shown now.

As a breeder, I will tell you, when I am looking for a show rabbit, I would want something that has a pedigree and is out of a very good line. Most won't use mismarked animals in their breeding program like that, unless they figure they can do something with the animal. Like the comments mentioned above involving the veinna.

The bad thing with veinnas is that i have read(and heard) the gene can be a nasty one. There is the chance you could end up producing rabbits that can be prone seizures. I am not 100% on that. Maybe the lion head breeders here would know more about it. 

If you would like to breed show rabbits, i suggest getting a good quality pair from a show breeder. You will learn about the breed that way, and will have a better chance at marketing them.


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## Sarah93 (Jun 8, 2010)

*Shaded Night Rabbitry wrote:*


> They'll produce adorable babies, with amazing blue eyes, but nothing showable, and not much worth as broods unless it's for a BEW program.


_
See I suppose thats what I'm going for.
I dont think I'm like tearing about the breed by doing this...and they've been bred in America for only ten years...I am only seventeen years old, so thats more than half my life...and thats not a very long time for a breeding program to be going on, even for me. 

I suppose right now I'm not going for showing...its just to complicated for me.
If I want to get more into that, I'll look into getting a breeding pair that would be great for showing in the future.
And I see your point in not knowing what my pair will produce.
Do you mean in colors or in general?

Also the vienna marks are prone to seizures?
But they're used to make BEWs, correct?
Wouldn't BEWs be prone to getting seizures then too since that is a hereditary disease? _

_Also if I get a doe here in a month or so that is from a BEW bred to a harlequin is that an poor choice in pair too?
I just like the beautiful colors I think these pairs can produce and I'm not taking away from their form. 
So I dont see why its so awful?_


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## TinysMom (Jun 8, 2010)

*Sarah93 wrote: *


> *Shaded Night Rabbitry wrote:*
> 
> 
> > They'll produce adorable babies, with amazing blue eyes, but nothing showable, and not much worth as broods unless it's for a BEW program.
> ...


First of all - I'm going to say to you the same thing I have to say to myself all of the time.

Once you've made up your mind - we can not make you do things differently - even if we're convinced you're doing the wrong thing. We're not the bunny police (and that is so hard for me).

Will one breeder tear apart the breed? No - of course not.

The thing is...when a breeder breeds just for baby bunnies or when they breed and waste a large amount of the potential of the rabbits they could be breeding...when they could be getting something really great...and breeders who casually turn out bunnies with recessive genes that could hinder someone else's entire lines (without knowing the genetics behind it) - it gives a bad impression of breeders to many people. They are even called a "backyard breeder" by many. 

If you really want to breed these rabbits....I suggest you get an orange doe or a blue eyed white doe (or a vienna marked doe) - and then for your current doe - get a shaded buck (tort or sable point or something like that).

If you educate yourself about the breed's standards and about color genetics - it can help you produce some really great rabbits that you can be proud of.


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## Lishka (Jun 8, 2010)

TinysMom wrote:

First of all - I'm going to say to you the same thing I have to say to myself all of the time.

Once you've made up your mind - we can not make you do things differently - even if we're convinced you're doing the wrong thing.Â  We're not the bunny police (and that is so hard for me).

Will one breeder tear apart the breed?Â  No - of course not.

The thing is...when a breeder breeds just for baby bunnies or when they breed and waste a large amount of the potential of the rabbits they could be breeding...when they could be getting something really great...and breeders who casually turn out bunnies with recessive genes that could hinder someone else's entire lines (without knowing the genetics behind it) - it gives a bad impression of breeders to many people.Â  They are even called a "backyard breeder" by many.Â  

If you really want to breed these rabbits....I suggest you get an orange doe or a blue eyed white doe (or a vienna marked doe) - and then for your current doe - get a shaded buck (tort or sable point or something like that).

If you educate yourself about the breed's standards and about color genetics - it can help you produce some really great rabbits that you can be proud of.
[/quote]

VERY well said Peg!!!


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## Happi Bun (Jun 8, 2010)

*Sarah93 wrote: *


> _Also the vienna marks are prone to seizures?
> But they're used to make BEWs, correct?
> Wouldn't BEWs be prone to getting seizures then too since that is a hereditary disease?_


Even though I'm not a breeder, I wanted to add that there is talk of there being a correlation between seizures and Blue Eyed White rabbits. I bought a BEW baby lionhead from a breeder named Dewey who early on in his life started having seizures. He died after having a grand mal one night, he wasn't even a year old.


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## Luluznewz (Jun 8, 2010)

I would like to encourage you to consider the implications of breeding. It doesnt sound like you have a whole lot of experience with breeding rabbits. It can be very dangerous for the doe (she could die) and I can almost promise if you keep breeding you will have kits die. It happens to every breeder no matter what you do. It can be very expensive and very stressful. I'm just warning you because I know thats not something I would be able to deal with. I wouldnt want anything to happen to my pet. (I'm not a breeder, this is just from what I've heard from breeders on this site). 

I'm just not sure how I feel about bringing little lives into the world as a hobby. Obviously its not my place to tell you what to do, but I think if you were to think about it you might realize how many rabbits there are in shelters right now waiting for homes.

You would be backyard breeder. I'm sure it would be very fun to have cute baby bunnies, but they all grow up and need to find responsible pet homes. That would be challenging and more likely than not some would end up abandoned or in shelters.


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## countrybuns (Jun 8, 2010)

I have to agree with what has been said by everyone here.

We can't tell you what to do nor can we pretend to be the bunny police but you asked what we think about this pair for breeding and the bottom line is that any reputable breeder will tell you that they do not make a good pair. You say you think they will make good coloured rabbits but have you researched it? It sounds like you are willing to learn more otherwise you wouldn't have asked oppinions so I just hope you don't jump the gun without being prepared. As far as the seizures go yes the vienna gene has been linked to seizures from what I understand it is most common with BEW to BEW breeding although because of my lack of experience despite liking the look of BEWs I am not touching them until I have gained more knowledge and experience.


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## elrohwen (Jun 8, 2010)

I agree with everyone else - breeding just to breed, and have cute baby bunnies - is not a good reason. There are sooo many lionhead bunnies in shelters and pet stores right now.

You doe may die during a difficult labor. Breeding is not for the faint of heart and it surely isn't something to do with your pets.

Finally, I don't think your girl is a vienna carrier. The vienna gene is dominant, so any bun that carries the gene should have white markings and probably blue eyes. Nothing about her looks vienna marked, so I'm going to guess that she doesn't have the vienna gene in her at all. If it was a recessive gene you would be correct that she is a carrier, but it's dominant, so it works differently. Half the babies they have together will be vienna marked, and the others will be solid. Also, broken is very different from vienna marked, and you should not mix a true broken rabbit with a VM.


_edited for tone_


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jun 8, 2010)

*elrohwen wrote: *


> Finally, I don't think your girl is a vienna carrier. The vienna gene is dominant, so any bun that carries the gene should have white markings and probably blue eyes.


Vienna is a recessive, and rabbits can be carriers without displaying vienna characteristics (blue eyes, white patches).

Vienna marked (VM) is a term used to describe a phenotypical vienna carrier- one that displays the blue eyes and white patches.

Vienna carrier (VC) is a term used to describe the rabbit's genotype- they carry vienna but do not outwardy display it.


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## elrohwen (Jun 8, 2010)

Sorry, my terminology was wrong and I confused myself - I meant to say it's a partially recessive gene. A rabbit with one vienna gene can be vienna marked, or a carrier. Just because her doe's father was a VM does not mean that her doe is necessarily a carrier. He only had one copy of the gene, so her doe may not have inherited it. There is only a 50/50 chance that her doe is VC vs a regular shaded. Also, VMs are a more common expression of the Vv genotype, so considering that and the 50/50 chance it's less likely that her doe is a carrier.


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## Pipp (Jun 8, 2010)

Although I'm sure feel they have a vested interest with the Lionheads' shelter aspects, this is still the Rabbitry and I will ask the Rescue people to respectfully not post in this section. 

I think the point has been made. 


sas :thanks:


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## SnowyShiloh (Jun 8, 2010)

I just want to add that I hope Sarah doesn't feel ganged up on and will stay on the forum to have fun and share Aslan and Lea with us


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## Luluznewz (Jun 8, 2010)

Yes I agree.
They are just the cutest little guys! We would love to see more pictures of them doing fun bunny things. I hope I didn't sound mean, because I just love love love your bunnies. It sounds like you are really trying to learn all the complicated stuff you need to know to consider breeding.


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## Pipp (Jun 8, 2010)

:yeahthat: and :yeahthat: 

Apologies for the brow-beating.

You've been very responsible by asking. Whether you decide to breed them or not, you will get support and information on this forum.



sas :hug1


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## dixonsrabbitry1 (Jun 8, 2010)

*Sarah93 wrote: *


> *Shaded Night Rabbitry wrote:*
> 
> 
> > They'll produce adorable babies, with amazing blue eyes, but nothing showable, and not much worth as broods unless it's for a BEW program.
> ...


breeders that produce blue eyed whites have more experience with them. They are bred mostly for show. Its something that shouldn't be attempted by a new breeder. Just just never know what will happen with the babies, the vienna gene is there. 

I would love to have BEW beverans some day. But then again they have the blue eyed white gene, and there is the possibility there could be complications from it. 

Is the new rabbit going to be purebred lion head, or a cross breed?

I don't think you are a backyard breeder(I hate that term). You are on here to learn, and that is a good thing. I feel you should do a little more research when it comes to breeding these rabbits together though. And listen to, and learn from the other breeders on here.


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## dixonsrabbitry1 (Jun 8, 2010)

Also its very rare to lose a doe to pregnancy complications.


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## pamnock (Jun 9, 2010)

*elrohwen wrote: *


> Sorry, my terminology was wrong and I confused myself - I meant to say it's a partially recessive gene. A rabbit with one vienna gene can be vienna marked, or a carrier. Just because her doe's father was a VM does not mean that her doe is necessarily a carrier. He only had one copy of the gene, so her doe may not have inherited it. There is only a 50/50 chance that her doe is VC vs a regular shaded. Also, VMs are a more common expression of the Vv genotype, so considering that and the 50/50 chance it's less likely that her doe is a carrier.



Normal "V" is actually incompletely dominant over the recessive "v". 

Vv may or may not show that they are carriers by phenotype.


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## BleuButterfly (Jun 10, 2010)

Your bunnies are adorable. <3 Good luck with them.


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## elrohwen (Jun 10, 2010)

I suppose it might be more correct to say that V is incompletely dominant to v, but that's just semantics. I have also seen sources that claim something is incompletely recessive, even if it's not totally the correct term.

The point I was making is that it is not all that likely that the OP's doe is a vienna carrier when you consider the odds. She certainly could be, but it is in no way a sure thing and I wanted to let her know that before she breeds.


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