# Need to go to vets, but now, or can it wait?



## mouse_chalk (May 23, 2008)

Sorry for starting a new thread for Chalk, I just thought that this might get seen easier than the old one...

Yesrterday evening, I noticed that Chalk's wound from her recent op (to remove an abscess that had ruptured on the wall of her intestine, causing peritonitis, for those of you who don't know) was looking a bit red, and lumpy. She was acting fine, eating, pooping, etc as normal though.

We took Barney and Mouse to the vets this afternoon to have their nails trimmed, and I mentioned Chalk's wound to James, the vet. He said we should bring her in for a look, and said it sounded most lilkely that she has had a reaction to the sutures. He said a post-op infection of the wound was unlikely at this late stage... We made an appointment for Tuesday, when the surgery is next open...

Anyway, I had a look tonight, and it looks a LOT worse. Very red, lots of little 'bumps' that seem only skin deep, they aren't attached to anything that I can see... Chalk doesn't like me touching them, and she hated staying still for pictures, but other than that she doesn't seem to be in any pain, and is still acting great- eating, pooping, binkying etc etc...

Here are the pics (sorry they aren't the clearest- hard to keep rocket bunny still with one hand and photograph with the other!












Soo... what do you guys think? Wait for the appointment on Tuesday, or go tomorrow? Our vets surgery isn't open tomorrow, but the hopsital is, to emergencies only... Either way, I'm perfectly prepared to take her down tomorrow if anyone thinks it's needed... it can all be done under the same insurance claim....

Thanks, in advance...


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## Pipp (May 23, 2008)

Sorry I missed this, Jen... 

Tough one to answer. 

Main question, is she still on antibiotics? 

And is it hot to the touch?

Itlookspretty angry from here.  Best to err on the side ofcaution.


sas :?


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## JimD (May 23, 2008)

imo....i'd go to the vet tomorrow.

It just looks "not right" to me.


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## slavetoabunny (May 23, 2008)

Those look inflamed to me.As a paranoid bunny-mom, I would have my vet check them out.


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## LuvaBun (May 23, 2008)

Have to agree, that I would go to the vet sooner rather than later. It looks similar to the rash I get when I'm allergic to something, so could be the vet is right. And if it starts irritating her to where she may chew at it, it's probably better to get it seen to first. Good luck! (these bunnies are certainly giving us a rough time at the moment

Jan


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## naturestee (May 24, 2008)

It looks a lot like when Fey's stitches twisted inside of her. It looked for all the world like an abcess to me but not to my vet and he fixed it really quickly. Think of the layer under the skin as another layer of skin, that can move around a little and get bunched up especially when it's been cut open and sewn back up. It was just the knot that hadn't dissolved, and all the vet had to do was make a tiny little incision in the skin and pull the knot out with forceps. No anesthesia, no stitches (for her, Mouse's is bigger), done in 5 minutes.

Fey's looked red and sore because she had been licking at it. I'm sure it was uncomfortable.

If it's gotten that big that fast, I'd take her in. Especially since there's no way I can know for sure if it's a suture problem or not.


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## Bo B Bunny (May 24, 2008)

Yep, looks like infected stitches.... looks like fluid in those lumps. Go to the vet!


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## mouse_chalk (May 24, 2008)

Thanks guys,

I've just got up.... they'd escaped from their cage (I woke up with Chalk in my bedroom?!:shock so I've just spent ages running round the house trying to catch them, hence only just had chance to have a look...

It looks a bit worse this morning, I'd say, a lot more red, and you can see in the second pic that one of the 'bumps' has a sort of yellowy tinge? It's not just the picture, and more of the 'bumps' have a yellowy tinge this morning too... 

I'm just about to call the animal hospital and see what they say, I'll let you know!

And Pipp, they do feel warm to the touch, hard to tell though if they're warmer than the rest of her? And she finished her antibiotics, Septril, almost 2 weeks ago...

Snowy had a problem a while back where one of her stitches from her spay poked through, making a little lump, which wouldn't heal until the vet pulled it through a bit and snipped it, but this looks nothing like that to me...


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## mouse_chalk (May 24, 2008)

I LOVE our vets.... Didn't think they were open on a Saturday but apparently they are, we're taking her over there (about 1/4 mile away) in 10 mins... wish us luck!


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## Pipp (May 24, 2008)

:goodluck



sas :clover:


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## Bunnicula (May 24, 2008)

Praying for you! Let us know what happens.


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## luvthempigs (May 24, 2008)

I will be thinking of you and Chalk..... :goodluck


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## mouse_chalk (May 24, 2008)

We've just got back from the vets, the vet at our local clinic put a needle into the lump (is that called an aspiration?) and it was pus inside. She thought it was a reaction to the internal sutures, but given Chalk's recent problems, sent us down to the hospital for an ultrasound, just to make sure it wasn't anything else.

So, the ultrasound showed that the abscesses aren't attached to anything, and is just a reaction to the stitches. She's on Baytril now, and we've been given an antibacterial wash, Hibiscrub (which she's had before, for a cut on her shoulder) to bathe the area with 2-3 times a day to try and draw out some of the pussy stuff... She did say that she couldn't rule out having to operate to remove the abscesses, but said that given Chalk is so well, and bright and active at the moment, it's best to try and manage it this way for now.

We've got to take her back to our regular clinic on Tuesday for a check-up, which is the next time they're open as it's a Bank Holiday weekend... why does she always have to do this on a Bank Holiday weekend lol?!

Thanks guys! I'm so glad we got her down there today... I was thinking that it needed to be seen ASAP, but it's nice to have people agree with you, and to know that I wasn't just making a fuss about nothing! 

Jen xx


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## luvthempigs (May 24, 2008)

Thanks for the update, Let's hope the antibiotic takes care of the infection


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## Bo B Bunny (May 24, 2008)

I figured that is what it was! Thank goodness she's ok! Keep us posted!


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## polly (May 24, 2008)

Glad she is ok Jen ouch poor chalk that doesn't look comfy I hope the hibiscrub and antibotics clears it up 

sounds like you were lonely last night


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## aurora369 (May 24, 2008)

I'm wondering if it would be better to go to an injectable antibiotic? Abcesses normally require very aggressive treatment to go away with just antibiotics.

Also, considering that her issues began in her intestinal track, I would be shying away from any medication that may upset her stomach. Injectable antibiotics are not only more effective, but they have less of an effect on the intestinal track.

I'm glad that it's a simple issue, and not abcesses attached to something.

--Dawn


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## mouse_chalk (May 25, 2008)

Hi guys,

Well, this morning we cleaned Chalk's abscesses (and that is what they are now, as you will see in a bit) with the Hibiscrub. She didn't like it, but it didn't seem to sting her. Pus started oozing out of some of them, and some of it got on her fur when she struggled. I've read about rabbit pus being thick and cheesy, but man it is! :? Not nice!

Anyway, here's how it's looking this morning. (Pic is a bit clearer thanks to being given an early birthday present of a Digital SLR camera yesterday.) I think it's looking worse, but is that just because some of them are starting to ooze?






And she's still VERY lively, has been binkying around the living room, shredding paper, eating all her food, pooing etc, like nothing's wrong! I feel so bad for her though, it looks so painful


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## Bo B Bunny (May 25, 2008)

Wow, they look angry and inflamed. I hope it's because the antibiotic is pushing it forward..... and getting it healed. In a day or two it should look MUCH better.

Poor baby!


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## Maureen Las (May 25, 2008)

I think that it looks a lot better than before you went. 

Hopefully the antibiotic will help but aurora may be onto something re. injectable antibioics rather than oral.
You can see how it goes....


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## slavetoabunny (May 25, 2008)

Does your vet want you to try and express the pus? Putting a warm, moist compress on them should help to draw it out. Poor Chalk!


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## Bo B Bunny (May 25, 2008)

It does look like the little places are smaller doesn't it?

How's my girl doing? :cry4:I've been worried.


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## juliew19673 (May 25, 2008)

Poor lil muffin!!! Did you call the Vet perchance to see what they thought? As chalk seems to be handling it (playing, eating - pooing)I myself, would probably wait and see.. Good luck and update often!


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## PepnFluff (May 26, 2008)

Ouchy that looks quite um sore. Hope it clears up soon


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## SnowyShiloh (May 26, 2008)

How is Chalk today? I've been thinking of her! The incision looks so painful


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## mouse_chalk (May 26, 2008)

Hi guys,

Chalk is still doing great in herself- she's been doing crazy binkies all day and taking naps here and there. Still eating and pooping ok.... The abscesses don't seem to look much better though, in fact it looks a lot 'angrier' and more inflamed to me? When I cleaned them earlier a lot more pus came out, and a few more are open now...

We're going back to the vets tomorrow morning, and I'm so glad! It'll be a relief to get a professional opinion, and see what they say...

Here's what it looks like today:







I think that Dawn may be right about the injectable antibiotics over the Baytril, although it doesn't seem to be upsetting her at all at the moment, I'll ask the vet tomorrow! I've been soaking cotton wool pads in the warm hibiscrub solution and holding it on the abscesses for a few mins, which is helping draw out the pus...

My poor baby Chalk! :tears2:


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## slavetoabunny (May 26, 2008)

Owww.....those do look ugly. The good thing is, that you can tell the pus is coming to the surface. The vet should be able to easily drain them.


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## mouse_chalk (May 26, 2008)

Chalk's really mad at me!  I guess it must be the turning her upside down 2 or 3 times a day lol...

I was sat on the sofa just now, on RO with all the bunnies playing about. She jumped up, sniffed and chinned Steve, hopped over to me, so I duly out my laptop aside, hoping for a cuddle.. Noooo, she hopped on my chest, DUG me, and bit my hand REALLY hard!  She jumped down, then a few minutes later jumped up and did it again! :cry1:

I probably didn't help matters though, right after that I had to clean and soak her abscesses again...

I wish Chalkie would understand that I'm 'mean' to her because I care about her so much and want her to be well again! Steve gets off ok because he just passes me the cotton wool and hibiscrub and takes the pictures! I have the hard job and get all the blame!  :cry1::cry1::cry1:

Anyway, it's looking much the same this evening... SO glad to go to the vets tomorrow, it'll be either James or Liz and they're both fantastic. I know that there are no members here from my area but I'll put my vets on the list anyway, in case people search and come across this place, and I think they deserve to be on there!


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## pumpkinandwhiskersmom (May 26, 2008)

Awww...I'm so sorry she is mad at you....it hurts so much more than just physically when they react that way.....you're just trying to make her all better, but she just knows that you're messing around, and it isn't any fun. {{{HUGS}}} to you for loving her through all of this.


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## Bo B Bunny (May 26, 2008)

They look bad but ya know I think they are coming to a head and that's a good thing.

I hope you get good news.. poor thing.

I know it's hard to have them so angry. She's not stupid tho... she is letting you know how upset she is with you!


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## Phinnsmommy (May 27, 2008)

Aww poor Chalk, that looks so painful!

You are *such* a good bunny mom though :biggrin2:.

And don't worry, she'll get over being mad at you. It will just take some time and a whole lot of treats .


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## juliew19673 (May 27, 2008)

Oh you poor thing! Your hubby is getting off easy on this one, but Chalk knows who mom is and its only with moms that you can act out like that, knowing they will still love you - so perhaps you should feel good that she does this with you and not hubby!

Poor Chalk - such a fighter and at least it sounds like it should be coming to end soon for her problems!


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## Bo B Bunny (May 27, 2008)

How's she doing today?


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## LuvaBun (May 27, 2008)

Hey Jen, how'd it go today? I'm a little concerned, 'cos I know you had a vet visit, and there's no update and it's late at night there now :dunno

Hope all is OK

Jan


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## mouse_chalk (May 27, 2008)

Aww sorry you guys! I've been meaning to update... it always seems like its gonna be more complicated than any other post, which is why I often leave my own threads til last, no excuse I know!

We went to the vet today, and she wants us to carry on with the antibiotics and regular cleaning for a few days and see how it goes. She said that if she doesn't get any better or we have any concerns to bring her straight back in but if she improves, to leave it until Monday, where then we'd make a decision as to whether surgery is necessary for it or not...:? I'm soo hoping that she improves and we don't have to go down that road, I'm a bit worried that 2 general aneasthetics for a bunny so close together isn't a great idea!:? The vet also said to press gently on the abscesses to try and draw some of the pus, which she did as much as she could in the consultation, which Chalk was NOT happy about!

Chalk's still doing fine though, she's been binkying about the place all day like nothing's wrong. Not the look of a bunny with multiple abscesses! She's still eating plenty, exploring everywhere and generally looking the picture of health until you look at her belly.

I've been in floods of tears just now, Chalk really didn't like being turned upside down this evening, we have to wrap her in a towel to do so, and she just hates it. You could tell that she was in pain when I was squeezing the abscesses too, even though she was deadly still. Afterwards I held her, and she wriggled out of the towel and bit me SO hard on my neck and shoulder. It sounds silly, but I just burst into tears and cried all over her. Her ears and fur were all wet with my tears, poor baby.  I just felt so bad that I was hurting her, even though I knew it was for the best. I wish she understood that!
:cry1::cry1::cry1::cry1:

Bless Steve though, he let Chalk go back into her cage, (she was ANGRY) and picked up Barney (a far more sympathetic bunny lol), and told him I needed cuddles and reassurance. Apparently Barney replied that was ridiculous, and of course I was a great bunny mum, his favourite by far, and he loved me very much! Barney then proceeded to lie on me for cuddles.... bless!


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## Marietta (May 28, 2008)

I can really feel for you...I had a bunny with multiple abscesses in his belly in the past, and I've been through this whole awful situation. It was a nightmare. And I can certainly recollect my guilt for causing him discomfort and even pain in squeezing out the pus and giving him shots of Bicillin every day. I hope everything turns out in the best way for Chalk.

Marietta


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## Bo B Bunny (May 28, 2008)

Oh man! I hope she does better ..... is the pus as thick as they say most abcesses get on bunnies? I imagine it's painful.


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## LuvaBun (May 28, 2008)

Aww Jen, I know how stressful it is when we are trying to help our babies and they think we are causing them pain for no reason. At least Barney understands, Bless his heart .

Hopefully, Chalk won't need another surgery, and the abcesses will clear on their own.

Thinking of you

Jan


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## juliew19673 (May 28, 2008)

Oh you poor thing!! Chalk not understanding why mom is pinching him so hard!! Especially as he is running and binkying about.. I hope he heals quickly so that the two of you can get back to your old relationship! Its hard being a mom!


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## MsBinky (May 30, 2008)

Awww I'm sorry to hear Jen. That looks awful painful.My cat is angry with me for the same reason since she had an abscess. Sucks to be thought of as a meannie huh? Biggest hugs to you for everything you are dealing with. Give Chalk some nose rubs for me, but don't lose a finger while you do. :rose:


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## mouse_chalk (May 31, 2008)

Sorry to be so long with an update guys...

Chalk's still doing great, the abscesses are much the same, but look quite a bit less red. Some of them still haven't burst, but I'm still getting a good amount of pus out of the others.... I've got a new picture to compare, I'll try and post it later if I get chance...

We're going back to the vets on Monday, where we'll likely make a decision then as to whether she needs further surgery to remove them or not.:? She continues to be a little madam though, and binky like crazy all over the place!

Thank you!


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## LuvaBun (May 31, 2008)

Well, we LOVE attitude on bunnies that are ill - shows they aren't too bad .

I was hoping that most of the puss would have gone by now :?. I guess if surgery is the answer, then that's the way to go, but I am still hoping that they can get rid of them without.

Jan


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## mouse_chalk (May 31, 2008)

Guys, I'm really worried....

We were cleaning Chalk's wound just now (late I know but she's been hopping about so happily we hated to catch her and spoil it)

Anyway, now that some of the swelling has gone down from the abscesses, I can feel a lump. It's under her skin, about the size of the tip of my little finger. It doesn't seem to be attached to her skin, but I can't tell if it's attached to anything underneath. It feels hard, but sort of squishy, a bit like her abscesses have felt before they've burst... She hates it being touched and squirmed loads...

I'm SO worried now, in case it's the same thing again... Do you guys think it's worth a trip to the vets tomorrow? They're closed, so it'll have to be the animal hospital, and costly, but we'll do it if it's needed. Or could it wait til Monday? I'm so so worried that she'll need further surgery, she's been such a strong bunny through everything she's had recently, but I'm worried about her having surgery again so soon after the last time...

And, I'm worried about what the lump could be.... Even if it's an abscess, I've decided I feel much 'safer' with abscesses that are external and I can see...

Please help!! :?


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## mouse_chalk (May 31, 2008)

This is a really bad picture, but I'm trying to show the lump:







I don't know if you can see, but my thumb and forefinger is 'pinching' the lump, you might be able to just make out where the skin is slightly raised there, underneath the red spots where the burst abscesses are... It's sort of egg/oval shaped, not 'round'.... :?

I'll try and get a better picture tomorrow when she might stay still more....


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## Bo B Bunny (May 31, 2008)

Yikes. I think she needs to see the vet over that. My niece's dog just had to go back from her spay (my dog's sister) and she had a lump - a piece of metal was stuck in there..... but the infection was like this.... it also could be a bit of a hernia?


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## Haley (May 31, 2008)

Im so sorry you guys are going through so much still. If you have a good after hours vet on Sundays that knows about rabbits I would take her in, if not I would wait until Monday unless you see her really going downhill.

I tried to read through the whole thread but I think I missed it- what kind of meds is she on? I think she needs to be on injectibable antibiotics (peng or bicillin really but I dont think you have them in the UK). 

Is she eating and pooping ok right now?


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## mouse_chalk (May 31, 2008)

Thanks guys for your quick replies!

She's still on oral Baytril, has been for a week now, and is to stay on it until we see the vet again on Monday (as previously arranged)..

She's still acting fine, apart from hating being picked up, she's binkying about, eating loads, pooping up a storm, etc etc, VERY alert and bright...

I guess with this being the case I could wait until Monday? Although me personally I'm not sure if I could cope waiting till Monday to know what it is... We could call them tomorrow, and see what they say, maybe we could get some advice over the phone?

Like I said, it's all insured, so the cost isn't an issue really, but I don't want to make a fuss about something that isn't really an emergency? An out of hours visit is Â£130 basic call-out where as a normal consultation is Â£30 (double to get that amount in dollars), and we'd have to pay out ourselves and then claim it back due to the way we've started the claim, but if it's needed we can do it!

A hernia? That doesn't sound good.... :?


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## Bo B Bunny (May 31, 2008)

could be the inside sutures have sort of broken loose. So it might need a bit more done....sometimes kittens and stuff get hernias in their umbilical site


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## MsBinky (Jun 1, 2008)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> could be the inside sutures have sort of broken loose. So it might need a bit more done....sometimes kittens and stuff get hernias in their umbilical site


I just got my kitten back because of that. Seems there was lots of inflammation and they broke loose. If it is that, they'll put her under anesthesia and just fix it up. Personally, I think Tuesday might be ok to wait but it all depends on if she's showing signs of pain, eating, drinking, etc etc. Houdina wasn't showing any signs othe than the lump but she was whining a lot at the vet's (she recognizes the place) and the vet said she had reason to whine. I guess being animals that hide their pain, it might be more uncomfortable than we realize so obviously the sooner the better but it's up to you to know what you can and cannot do as well. :rose:I'm sorry to hear that its not ove yet :?


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## mouse_chalk (Jun 1, 2008)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> could be the inside sutures have sort of broken loose. So it might need a bit more done....sometimes kittens and stuff get hernias in their umbilical site


I hadn't thought of that... That's possible, although it seems a little late on for that to happen now? Her operation was a month ago now, May 2nd! :shock:

We didnt' take her to the vets today, she's still acting perfectly normal, if you saw her you honestly wouldn't be able to tell that there's anything wrong with her unless you looked at it. I don't know if we did the right thing there or not, but at the moment I think she'll be ok until tomorrow. I'll call them first thing in the morning, and they're usually very good about fitting us in within a couple of hours, same day at least. I still have Metacam if she seems to be in pain, or should I maybe give her some now anyway? :? 

The lump is still looking the same today, I don't think it's gotten any bigger... I feel really bad for not noticing it before, but either it wasn't there, or it was hidden by the external swelling. It's possible that one of the abscesses above it on her skin was swollen, and that's what I thought it was. The vet didn't notice it on Monday either... :?


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## SnowyShiloh (Jun 1, 2008)

Come on Chalkie, what are you doing to your poor mom? I really hope to see some improvement in her soon. This is terribly worrying


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## Marietta (Jun 1, 2008)

To my -bitter- experience with my previous bun, abscesses sort of multiply, if not aggressively treated. They don't only look more swollen, as the pus keeps filling them and the skin in the area gets irritated and red from the swelling, but they also expand, i.e. they seem to pop up in spots near the existing ones as the days go by. As far as the abdominal area is concerned, internal abscesses may also form and attach to various organs. Thesecan be detected via x-ray or ultra-sound.In regard to pus aspiration, on the one hand it is extremely difficult, because it has the consistency and looks of toothpaste, so it doesn't flow out of the abscess, the way a cat's or dog's abscess would; on the other hand, from what I've read over the years, this is a highly debated issue, as it has been said thatexercising pressure onthe abscess surface, in order to clean out the pus, may cause an existinginternal abscess to burst and the bunny to die from septicemia. The point where everybody agrees is that the surgical removal of an encapsulated abscess is a full and final treatment of the abscess. Most of the vets use aggressive Ã­injectable treatments with penicillin combos -and alsomore modern antibiotics- in order to eradicate or minimise the abscess in view of a forthcoming surgery.

In regard to signs of pain, they usually are not in pain, if the abscess is external. They run, eat, drink, poopand binkie as usual.

As for waiting till tomorrow, I don't think that you'll see any significant chances up to Monday, so, I don't think this is an emergency. It's better that your rabbit savvy vet of preference checks on the situation, instead of any vet being on an emergency shift in a clinic.

Marietta


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## mouse_chalk (Jun 1, 2008)

*SnowyShiloh wrote: *


> Come on Chalkie, what are you doing to your poor mom? I really hope to see some improvement in her soon. This is terribly worrying


:hug: Thank you Shiloh....


And thank-you Marietta, what you put was what I thought was my general understanding about abscesses in bunnies, although I hadn't thought about the pressure being put on external abscesses to 'drain' them causing an internal abscess... I don't know if that's the case here or not, but another internal abscess rupturing with Chalk is something I want to avoid at all costs, so just to be on the safe side, do you think I should maybe just clean it this evening and not try to squeeze them? Until we go to the vets in the morning that is...

I'm pretty much preparing myself for the course of events tomorrow now. Before this lump I had really hoped that we could avoid surgery if the abscesses healed well enough, but not that there is an internal lump, possibly abscess or something it looks fairly likely she will need more surgery  When we take her in tomorrow I fully expect that they will send us down to the hospital for an x-ray, at the very least, if they don't want to operate... It's not that I want her to have surgery, I'm just preparing myself for it, if that makes sense? Whatever happens, I fully trust our vets and know that they will take good care of her, and will choose the best course of action...

By the way, it might come across in this thread as if I'm not worried, I just want to say that isn't the case at all, I'm absolutely terrified of what might happen, especially if she has to have further surgery so soon after the last, I guess that worrying about Chalk has become an normality over recent weeks, and also, I don't want to be panicking too much, as I know that wont be good for either her or me, or Steve, he loves Chalk so much and has been so worried about her too!

Jen xx


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## JimD (Jun 1, 2008)

ray:



all paws crossed!


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## pumpkinandwhiskersmom (Jun 1, 2008)

Thinking of you and Chalk! We'll be praying!


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## pumpkinandwhiskersmom (Jun 1, 2008)

Thinking of you and Chalk! We'll be praying!


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## LuvaBun (Jun 1, 2008)

Poor Chalk - this problem just won't go away, will it? Unfortunately, it does sound like they may need to do another surgery (though I'm hoping with all my heart that they don't).

At least you've got great vets, Jen, and that is always a bonus. Let us know what they say.

Thinking of you all

jan


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## Bo B Bunny (Jun 1, 2008)

With all of those abcesses and stuff on her.... that could have prevented the inside part to heal (there's a good chance she had some there also.

Definitely something to have checked.


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## Marietta (Jun 2, 2008)

mouse_chalk wrote:
And thank-you Marietta, what you put was what I thought was my general understanding about abscesses in bunnies, although I hadn't thought about the pressure being put on external abscesses to 'drain' them causing an internal abscess... I don't know if that's the case here or not, but another internal abscess rupturing with Chalk is something I want to avoid at all costs, so just to be on the safe side, do you think I should maybe just clean it this evening and not try to squeeze them? Until we go to the vets in the morning that is...[unquote]



Sorry for the delayed reply, but I switched off my laptop around 22:00 yesterday and didn't have the chance to read you above post.

Pressure on an external abscess does not create an internal abscess. It is just that if an internal abscess is pre-existing, then pressure on the spot could make it burst, if it is big, "mature" and its walls are thin. So, don't freak out, this is not an every-case scenario. You don't know if there is any internal abscess at all, since no ultra-sound or x-ray has been performed. You know, it is common for abscesses to form near wounds (and the surgery incision is a wound). But, maybe this little lump you indicate in the photo could be a sature or a stitched skin part. 

In regard to pus aspiration, there are vets who suggest it and there are vets who don't, because they think it doesn't help much, as the pus re-fills the cavity again. In regard to surgery, this is something for your vet to decide. Maybe he/she will opt for a very agressive treatment first.

Why don't you take a look at our Library section and, especially, the very successful protocol of Marcy Moore about Bicillin treatment of abscesses? 

Edited to add the relevant thread from our Library: http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=11791&forum_id=10

And this is Marcy Rosenfield-Moore's article about abscess treatment without a surgery, with the long-term use of injectable Bicillin. She is an extremely nice lady, too. I'd contacted her when I had my abscessed bunny and she was an angel!
http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~jwmoore/bicillin/bicillin.htm

Please revert with the vet's evaluation.

Marietta


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## mouse_chalk (Jun 2, 2008)

Thanks guys,

We just got back from the vet. It wasn't James or Liz, our regular vet up there, but the one who performed her surgery last month. She's not as friendly as James or Liz, in that she doesnt' talk to us on their level (they know that we understand stuff so they explain it properly) but she's still good in my opinion. 

Anyway, she recommended surgery. She's fairly sure that the lumps are encapsulated absceses under the skin, as they aren't attached to either the skin, or anything underneath, you can sort of push them around? The surgery is scheduled for tomorrow, we are taking her in at 8-9am with a 'packed lunch' for her to eat when she comes round...

They didn't perform any x-ray or ultrasound though, is this ok? I must admit I had expected it, but then she did have an ultrasound 10 days ago....

I'm SO worried about it... I just hope and hope that she'll come through ok... 

P.S Marietta, thanks for correcting me, I understood that when I read it, but then typed it up wrong, there was a lot going on at the time!


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## Marietta (Jun 2, 2008)

The best of luck for the surgery with all my heart! Please let us know how it goes. 

Marietta


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## LuvaBun (Jun 2, 2008)

Aww Jen, I'm sorry that Chalk has to go through another surgery, but perhaps this is the way to go to finally get rid of these abcesses.

Chalk is a strong girl, and she has been acting and feeling really well despite the abcesses, so I'm sure she will get through this OK. We are all praying for her (and you and Steve). How is Mouse doing?

Jan


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## juliew19673 (Jun 2, 2008)

Chalk seems to be quite the Trooper, would it be too much for Mouse to go along so that when Chalk wakes up they would both be together (just a thought).. I really hope this all goes well and I just have a good feeling about it. Will stay online tomorrow awaiting the news.


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## pumpkinandwhiskersmom (Jun 2, 2008)

So sorry Chalk has to go through this again....and so soon. We'll keep you all in our thoughts and prayers tomorrow. Did the vet give you any indication of how long the surgery will take, and when she'll be able to come home? Just wondering when we can expect to hear anything. We'll anxiously awaiting news tomorrow!ray:


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## mouse_chalk (Jun 2, 2008)

Thanks guys...

Julie, I don't think that Mouse going is a viable option for them, she's going to the animal hospital and they are always really busy and stacked out for space down there, plus they have said before that they'd need to be kept separate post-op anyway to monitor the eating/pooing situation... It's a shame, but it makes sense I guess... Hopefully, she'll be able to come home tomorrow, they didn't mention an overnight stay, but it will depend on how she does during the op..

We're dropping her off at 8ish, and the way it normally goes is that they do the surgery in the morning sometime, and then you can call after lunchtime, or they call you and tell you how it went. Then you can pick them up in the afternoon, around 4-5ish... 

So I'll spend most of the morning tomorrow tearing my hair out, I've already bitten my nails right down so can't do that... I cleaned the whole house pretty much today, so can't do that.... 

Hopefully I'll be able to update on here once I've spoken to them, before we pick her up to let you know how she is! 

Argh, I'm so worried.... I've already had a long cuddle but I'm going to pick her up and give her lots more kisses now....

Jen xx

Edit: Scrap that, she just hopped up and bit me on the chin! She must know!! :shock:


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## Haley (Jun 2, 2008)

I'll be praying for Chalk and for you. When you drop her off or pick her up you should speak to the vet about getting her on a stronger antibiotic. Baytril, especially oral, is so weak theres no way it will fight abscesses, which are so encapsulated and difficult for the antibiotic to get to. I dont think you guys have Bicillin in the UK but you might ask anyway, or ask about an injectible antibiotic which would be stronger. 

If you have time, check out that article Marietta gave you, Bicillin was a lifesaver for me and Max. We also have lots of good articles in our Library under "Abscesses".

I'll say a prayer everything goes ok for you and Chalk. We're here if you need us.

*hugs*

Haley


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## Bo B Bunny (Jun 2, 2008)

Awww she's picking up on your feelings and she's probably trying to tell you it hurts!

Poor baby...... and poor you! I know it's been terrible.... 

When you think about the surgery you had..... and then hers....... I'm sure you can feel her pain


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## AngelnSnuffy (Jun 3, 2008)

Poor Chalk. I'll be praying for her. And you.


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## SnowyShiloh (Jun 3, 2008)

Poor Chalk! How invasive is this surgery going to be? It's almost 10 am there, so I'd imagine Chalk is at the hospital already. I really, really hope everything goes smoothly and am waiting for you to get back here with a good update for us. I know too well how you must be feeling right now


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## mouse_chalk (Jun 3, 2008)

Thanks guys,

We just got back a little while ago from dropping Chalk off at the hospital. She has a packed lunch with pellets, spring greens, romaine, apple, corriander, parsley and basil! She still seems herself this morning, she was digging the towel around in the carrier in the car- I got a little video of it on my mobile.

She should be going in late morning, it's 11.45am here so maybe she's in now? :? And we should get a call sometime this afternoon, but if we don't hear anything we are to call at 4pm. They couldn't say whether she would stay overnight, it depends on how late she gets out of theatre, and whether she eats, drinks and poos straight away or not... But there's nurses there 24 hours, it's the same place where she was before...

I'm so scared! Steve cried after we dropped her off too, he's really worried. He kept telling the admissions nurse things that they might need to know, like she only likes smooth surfaces to lie on, and she nibbles clothing, and to handle her carefully cos her tummy's sore... Bless...

On the way home we stopped to get fresh carrot tops for when she comes home, and we got her a new willow toy from Pets at Home. We spoke to the manager and staff their, who looked after Barney and Snowy before we adopted them, and they were all so shocked about Chalk, and now they're worried about her too!

Pennie, I know, my surgery was so painful, and it's similar in a way, that just makes me more worried for how much my poor baby is going through! :cry1:

And Shiloh, hopefully it wont be tooo invasive, they're removing all the abscesses on the skin, where the original suture line was, and the abscesses internally, but they're just under the skin, so hopefully, as long as that's all they find.... *fingers crossed*

I'll update you all as soon as I know anything, I've got all the phones right by me! I can't think what to do to occupy myself, so I'm going to cook soup, lol- got all those spare carrots left over from buying the bunches with tops for the buns!

Thank you so much everyone, it means a lot to know that people are thinking of her! :hug:

Jen xx


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## Bo B Bunny (Jun 3, 2008)

> Pennie, I know, my surgery was so painful, and it's similar in a way, that just makes me more worried for how much my poor baby is going through! :cry1:


Yes, but it makes the understanding you have for her much greater and I know she's feeling your vibes. When she gets home, I think you'll relax a bit and she'll be able to relax also. 

Make sure they give you pain medicine for her! and when she's feeling better - I think she'll be back to her lovey self again. No nipping Mama!


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## SnowyShiloh (Jun 3, 2008)

Jen, I'm going to bed now, but I'm expecting to hear that she did great during the surgery and is recovering nicely when I wake up! I will be thinking good thoughts for all of you. Poor Steve, that's so sweet that he loves his Chalk so much. Paul doesn't really get my sadness over Tallulah 

Lots of hugs for you!!!! Please update the thread as soon as you hear anything?


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## mezeta (Jun 3, 2008)

Oh Jen.

I am soo sorry I've only just seen this thread. I just want you to know I am thinking of you and Chalk and hopping she is back home soon. xxx


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## mouse_chalk (Jun 3, 2008)

SHE'S OK!!!!!!

The vets just called Steve, she's coming round ok! She's moving around, and having a nibble of some food, and we can go pick her up at about 5pm!!!!! 

WOOOHOOOOO!!

:biggrin2:

The vet did say that one of the abscesses was right in her muscle though? That's what Steve thought she said anyway) So they had to go deeper than they imagined they would, but none of them were ruptured and there was no pus or anything inside, and they managed to remove all of them ok. 

The only concern I have is that the vet wants her to stay on the Baytril. Steve asked about a stronger antibiotic, but the vet said that there's only a few available over here suitable for rabbits (I'm pretty sure that vets here don't really use PenG or anything like that), and that she has concerns that she may become immune to the antibiotics, and doesn't want to risk that with anything other than Baytril? I'm not really sure, so I'll try and see if we can speak to the vet when we pick her up, if not we're going back to see our regular vet in a day or 2 for a check-up so I'll speak to them then, I feel more comfortable discussing stuff like that with them, as they seem to recognise that I have some other source of knowledge (you guys!) and understand it all a lot.

Anyway, I'm SOOOOOO glad she's ok! My baby Chalk is coming home! YAY!

:yahoo::yahoo::yahoo:


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## mezeta (Jun 3, 2008)

YEY!!

Thats really good news, I have been thinking about Chalk hoping she was doing well. When can she come home? Bet you can't wait to have her back for a cuddle :biggrin2:


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## mouse_chalk (Jun 3, 2008)

Thank you! We're picking her up at 5pm!! :biggrin2:


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## Ivory (Jun 3, 2008)

See if you can get injectable Baytril. It's much much much more effective in that form. I would push very strongly for it if you can.


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## slavetoabunny (Jun 3, 2008)

Yay for Chalk!!! She is sure one tough little bunner. I'm so happy she came through her surgery like a champ.:biggrin2:


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## Haley (Jun 3, 2008)

Yay! Im so happy Chalk is ok!

A lot of vets are scared to use other antibiotics on rabbits since they have sensitive GI tracts and have been warned against using the cillin drugs in rabbits. I agree with Ivory though, even injectible Baytril would be so much more effective. Oral Baytril will do little to nothing against abscesses. 

I know you cant get Bicillin in the UK, but maybe you can get PenG with Procaine? That could be given every day. I would ask about that. 

Also, if these continue to be a problem, you should ask about antibiotic impregnated beads, which slowly release meds into the system. Heres an article on that if you want to share with your vet:

http://www.mth.kcl.ac.uk/~llandau/Homepage/Rabbit/abscess.html

And heres one on using Penicillin in the UK where Bicillin is not available:

http://www.rabbitwelfare.co.uk/resources/content/info-sheets/penicillin.htm

And loads more articles in our Library here:

*http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=11791&forum_id=10*

I know just what youre going through bc I went through the same thing with Max. Trying to convince these vets to try a treatment they have never used nor heard of without offending them is difficult but essential. I always emailed or printed out anything I could find to show my vet. I also referenced the forum, saying things like "my friend's vet used x and it worked, can we at least try?". Its difficult to walk this line with your vet who thinks they know best, but Max wouldnt be here if I didnt push to get him on Bicillin. It really saved his life.

I'll be praying for you and your girl. Hopefully when you see your regular vet you can get her on some antibiotics to help control these infections!

Haley


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## Marietta (Jun 3, 2008)

Way to go, Chalk!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We're all so happy for you!!!! Lots of little bunny nose kisses for you!!!!:bunnyhug:

Marietta


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## LuvaBun (Jun 3, 2008)

Oh Jen, this is such a relief - what a brave little bunny Chalk is. I know you will be spending lots of time snuggling her when she gets home . I bet Steve will too - I think it's wonderful that he cares so much for Chalk too!

Jan


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## Bo B Bunny (Jun 3, 2008)

:waiting:What time is it there?

If she got the infection with the abscesses on the baytril, what makes the vet think that will be enough to keep the infection from coming back?

PLEASE give her a nose rub and cheek rub and ear rub and kisses from me!


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## mouse_chalk (Jun 3, 2008)

SHE'S HOME!!!!!!! :bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance:

She's very quiet though, and has been sat in much the same place since she got into her cage. On the way home she lay down, and I took the front off the carrier and pet her, and held her still a bit when we went over bumps (I remembered coming home after my own op and the bumps being AGONY), and she seemed comforted by that, and closed her eyes as I pet her...

We've got Metacam, and yes, you guessed it, Baytril!  But we're going to our vet in a day or 2 for a check up, I honestly for the life of me can't remember whether it's Thursday or Friday now... Anyway, I'm going to speak to our regular vet then about trying different antibiotics, all we saw today was the nurse. The vet who performed the op said that she can't rule out that Chalk could develop more abscesses in future, so to me that seems even more reason for stronger antibiotics! I just know that I'll feel much more comfortable discussing it with our regular vet, who listens and knows us better, if that makes sense? For now she's had Baytril injected though...

I can see her from where I'm sat on the sofa and she still seems very quiet, I'll get a couple of pictures for you guys when my battery pack has charged. I want to give her a great big cuddle but I'm scared to hurt her! :? 

She's got plenty of food to choose from as well, she ate some in the hospital but no poo as yet...

I'm just so glad she's home though!!!


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## mouse_chalk (Jun 3, 2008)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> :waiting:What time is it there?
> 
> If she got the infection with the abscesses on the baytril, what makes the vet think that will be enough to keep the infection from coming back?
> 
> PLEASE give her a nose rub and cheek rub and ear rub and kisses from me!


It's 7pm here! Took aaaages to get home, and then I was so dizzy from the stress I guess was made to lie down for a while...

Aww, I guess any excuse to kiss her, it will be done! :biggrin2:

And yes, I agree about the antibiotics, do you guys think I'm doing the right thing waiting til Thurs/Fri to ask about it, with my normal vet who's more understanding?


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## Bo B Bunny (Jun 3, 2008)

So it's Tuesday now..... hmmmm.... I think maybe I'd call this other vet tomorrow and tell them...... then see what they think. If that vet is more rabbit savvy I would. 

I understand the idea about being immune to the antibiotics but if she's on baytril alone - it might not be enough.


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## Haley (Jun 3, 2008)

I dont think it would do any harm waiting a few days to speak to your vet. I wonder, can you call him and leave a voicemail or email him some information? Tell him youve been speaking with some friends in the US who have dealt with similar situations (life threatening abscesses) and they have had great success with some methods you would like to try? That might seem less threatening and give him time to look into it before your visit. Theres even info on that UK article I posted about how to get your vet to get bicillin approved for your use. 

Im so glad Chalk is doing ok. Shes so lucky to have such an attentive mommy. I'll be praying her recovery.

Haley


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## mouse_chalk (Jun 3, 2008)

Thanks guys! 

It turns out we need to call the vets tomorrow anyway, so I'll try and speak to someone then. I've had a quick read of the articles (hard to read too much at the moment, I'm feeling SO dizzy, so I'll have a proper look later), and I'll print it out to take to the vets with me next time we go...

The reason we have to call tomorrow, is that the Metacam we've been given is 1.5mg/ml oral suspension, and on the box it says 'for dogs'. Fine so far, but the dose we've been told to give is 6kg, to measure out on the syringe which is measured in weight. Now a few weeks ago, when she was given Metacam, it was 0.5mg/ml for cats, and we were only told to give a 1.6kg dose...

Now, is it just me, or have we been told to give a larger dose of a stronger version of Metacam? I could be wrong, and it could be ok, but we'd rather check to be sure... I did query it at the time when she mentioned the dose, and the nurse looked on our notes and said that we'd been given cat metacam before which was a different strength, which sounded ok to me, but we hadn't had the box yet to see that it was the dog version, and stronger! :shock: 

She isnt' due to have any until tomorrow afternoon anyway, so we can hopefully call in the morning and sort it out....

Anyone any ideas in the meantime?


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## Bo B Bunny (Jun 3, 2008)

WOW I'm glad you checked that label. Looks like someone messed up big time!!!


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## polly (Jun 3, 2008)

Wow just as well you saw that Jen. I can tell you we get the dog metacalm and our buns are nethies all around 1.4 kg and they get 2 drops


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## juliew19673 (Jun 3, 2008)

YAY!!!!!!!! I'm SO glad Chalk is home already!!!! Good catch on the Baytril.. Phew... 

Give chalk some nose kissed for me!!!


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## mouse_chalk (Jun 3, 2008)

Glad you guys agree... I can't work out what's wrong though, the dosage, or the box of metacam itself, or both? I saw it being taken off the shelf and is right next to the cat metacam, so maybe they just picked the wrong box, but a 6kg dose for even cat metacam, when she was getting a 1.6kg dose before sounds crazy?!

And yeah, I always double check, especially after Sas's reminder!! 

Here's a groggy Chalk:

















She's been sat there for about an hour and a half now, she seems to be sitting in one place for a while, then moving to another place and staying there for a while. She's pooed some (YAY!) but not eaten...


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## SnowyShiloh (Jun 3, 2008)

Aww, she's even adorable when she's under the weather. Hooray for poops! I hope she starts feeling better soon and that she recovers well this time! What a long month it's been for her.


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## mouse_chalk (Jun 3, 2008)

Thank you Shiloh! :hug:

I just looked over and she was eating! WOO! 

It also seems like she has a giant plaster stuck to her belly, I'm assuming so she can't chew the stitches or anything- need to pick her up to get a closer look but I'm scared to hurt her so probably wont do it tonight...


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## Haley (Jun 3, 2008)

Chalk is so beautiful! She looks so alert for just having surgery. I hope that means shes recovering well.

As for the Metacam, I give the dog bottle that is 1.5 mg/ml and I give .2 mL (which is the same as cc). Once when the vet gave me the .5 mg/ml bottle, they instructed me to give .6 ml a day, which makes sense since its three times less strong.

Now, whats weird to me is this, you live in the UK and the website says they dont sell the oral .5 in the UK. It says the .5 one sold in the UK is injectible only: 

http://www.petplace.com/drug-library/meloxicam-metacam/page1.aspx

Are you sure the stuff they gave you last time was oral? Did it smell like honey?

What is the actual dose your vet prescribed for this new bottle thats 1.5 mg/ml? It cant be kg since thats not a liquid measurement its a weight measurement, right? Does your syringe have mLs or ccs on it?


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## Bo B Bunny (Jun 3, 2008)

Is she warm? does she have a rice sock or something? She looks really good!


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## mouse_chalk (Jun 3, 2008)

*Haley wrote: *


> Chalk is so beautiful! She looks so alert for just having surgery. I hope that means shes recovering well.
> 
> As for the Metacam, I give the dog bottle that is 1.5 mg/ml and I give .2 mL (which is the same as cc). Once when the vet gave me the .5 mg/ml bottle, they instructed me to give .6 ml a day, which makes sense since its three times less strong.
> 
> ...


Gosh, I'm confused now! 

Right, they BOTH smell like honey... is that good?

The 0.5 oral stuff we've had before orally, it's meant for cats, and not officially licensed for rabbits I don't think, when we got it last time we had to sign a consent form for it. We've not been given the dog stuff before today, it's always been the 0.5mg stuff before...

Not sure on it being injectible only, that sounds odd since we've been given it many times before! After the girls and Snowy's spays too...

The syringes are weirder still, both packs have Metacam branded syringes, so they are the correct ones for the stuff, and they have markings in kg on them, so basically you fill the syringe up to the weight of your pet, and that's supposed to be the correct amount for them. That's why I thought it was odd that we were told to give the 6kg dose! The cat Metacam has a 10kg syringe with it, and the dog Metacam has a 60kg syringe with it...

That make any sense?! :dunno

And Pennie, she doesn't have a rice sock at the moment, she hates them! I do have one ready to give her if needed though, but she feels warm enough at the moment! She's trying to pull the plaster off though, it's all stuck to her fur, poor baby....


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## juliew19673 (Jun 3, 2008)

Chalk is just beautiful and hope you can figure out the dosage (and please post with what you find).. Good luck Chalk - hope you start to feel comfortable soon!


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## Haley (Jun 3, 2008)

Ok this makes loads of sense. Obviously that site is wrong and you have been given both dosages or oral metcam before. So, working with the bottle you have now...

I know the syringe youre talking about and its worthless for bunnies since you would only go to like the first mark or something. Do you have another smaller syringe? Anything in mls or ccs? 

What I do is draw liquid into the bigger syringe that came with the Metacam, then draw .2 ccs into a smaller syringe...but thats if you have one in ml or ccs.


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## mouse_chalk (Jun 3, 2008)

I have tons... I have 1ml, 1.5ml, 2ml, 3ml and 5ml syringes, and lots of! I get loads every time we need something else, it's the only thing they don't charge for  What's an appropriate amount in mls for a 1.6kg (3.5lbs)? Then I can check that they tell me correctly tomorrow!

Yeah, I never thought about it before but the 10kg syringe is a pain to use, the first marker is for 2kg. We got on ok before only because the vet showed us whereabouts 1.6kg was roughly, but yeah, it was never an accurate measurement!

Grr... I'm so annoyed that they got the dose wrong.:X I love our vets, I'm kind of in 'denial' that they would get something like this wrong! I take comfort in the fact that it wasn't our regular vets, James or Liz (we do first names there for some reason), and was at the hospital not our local office so wasn't any of the nurses we know and like! I'm pretty sure our regular office will be more than a little annoyed when I call them tomorrow...

Oh, and look at this. Looks like Mouse thought that Chalk could do with a little cushion to rest herself on!


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## juliew19673 (Jun 3, 2008)

Awww, how nice of Mouse to sacrifice himself for her.. Now thats love!!


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## Haley (Jun 3, 2008)

Aww look at the babies snuggling. They are so cute. Im glad Chalk has Mouse there to support her.

For a 3.5 bunny, .2 ml of Metacam a day is what my vets here prescribe. So if they give you the dog one (1.5 mg/ml) you would give Chalk .2 ml and if its the .5 mg/ml one you give .6 ml. Hope that helps!


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## mouse_chalk (Jun 3, 2008)

Thanks Haley! That's a great help! Now I have something to measure it against what they say tomorrow (although I'm sure our regular vets will get it right)... It sounds like a much more reasonable dose... 

Thank you!  I'm thinking I might be able to get some sleep after all now, was planning on staying up and watching her, but now she's pooed and eaten some I think she'll be ok...


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## AngelnSnuffy (Jun 3, 2008)

Yay, glad to hear Chalk is home and doing well! I'm sorry to hear about the ordeal you're going through with the meds though:?. I hope it gets sorted out tomorrow.


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## Bo B Bunny (Jun 4, 2008)

Awww Mouse is being her rice sock!!! 

I never use rice socks tho..... I warm a towel in the dryer or microwave and then give it to them or mostly I just hold them on it. Bo loves to snuggle anyhow so when he's needed it - he loves to lay on us with a warm towel under his tummy.


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## mouse_chalk (Jun 4, 2008)

Hi guys,

Right, we've got stuff sorted! We took her in to see James this lunchtime, she hadn't pooed or eaten anything all night, and was missing out on her cecals, I think because the plaster was stuck to her fur making her uncomfortable and restricting her movement. She also seemed to be in quite a bit of pain, and we wanted to clear up the metacam and antibiotics matters, so thought a visit would be simpler to clear it all up!

He gave her Vetagesic (sp?), a much stronger painkiller, that she had when she was in the hospital last time. Her temperature etc are normal, and he took off the big sticky plaster, which she seemed quite happy about. In fact, she jumped into my arms for a cuddle as soon as it was off bless her! 

The metacam issue was confusing, he checked in the books, and it was a fairly high dose they had given, although he said that it was still just about in the range that they could give to a rabbit? But he agreed it was too much for her all at once, so we're going to start on a 2kg dose and see how she goes with that. I'm just about to draw it into a syringe and then somehow see how much that works out to be in a 1ml syringe, just to be sure. Does that sound ok?

About the antibiotics, he agreed with me that we want to do everything we can to prevent it happening again, and said that injectable antibiotics are an option, but would be one to try and avoid if possible (I don't think they would let an owner inject instead of a vet over here?), but wanted to try the Baytril and also Septrim together for a few days and see how we went with that. I'm still a bit anxious that she should be on something stronger, but I feel much happier having spoken with him, knowing that he is open to using injectables like PenG if needed. I mentioned that I had friends in the US and that they'd had a lot of success with it, but of course I didn't know what was available over here, and he was very good about it.

She's going back in for a check-up on Friday, but he said that if we see no improvement by tomorrow to take her back in again...

Oh, and we also have a probiotic for her, but she doesn't touch it when it's in her water, so he suggested mixing it with a bit of organic baby food and seeing if that helps, we've got some apple and banana flavour stuff to give to her now!


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## pumpkinandwhiskersmom (Jun 4, 2008)

What a relief that you could see James....he sounds like a real gift. It's great that he's willing to listen and consider other options. We'll keep praying that Chalk has a great day....eating and lots of poos, please, Miss Chalk!


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## mouse_chalk (Jun 4, 2008)

Thank you Grace! 

Just to update, still no poos or eating from Chalk  We've given her the Metacam, and she seems to be lying more comfortably, and actually she did nibble a bit of hay, but that's about it.... 

All day she has been lying funny, sort of lifting her belly up off the ground? Mostly she was sitting hunched with Mouse snuggling up to her. However, since she has had the Metacam I've just seen her flop outside the cage and then lie down with her feet sticking out the back for a bit so she must be feeling a little bit more comfortable?

When we gave her the meds we syringed her a little bit of the baby food too, just to get some food into her. She took about 2ml of it? She did not like being given the Baytril or Septrim though! 

Hoping she gets better and starts guzzling food down soon.... :?


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## LuvaBun (Jun 4, 2008)

I'm pleased you got the meds sorted out. Poor Chalk, she's bound to be uncomfortable, bless her heart . Hopefully, she will feel well enough to start eating soon.

Those pics of her snuggling with Mouse are the cutest - thanks goodness she has a furry pillow to rely on 

Jan


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## mouse_chalk (Jun 5, 2008)

She seemed ok earlier- Steve said she ate some breakfast, and she's nibbled on a bit of lettuce and hay. 

But this evening she keeps lying on her side in her litter tray? Her breathing is very shallow, and her ears are really cold. 

We've got a snugglesafe heat pad and she's been sitting on it on and off, but Mouse seems to like it a lot as well... 

I'm really worried about her! 

We've given her the Metacam- I increased the dose to the equivalent of 0.3ml, as she seemed to be in a lot of pain, but it doesn't seem to have done anything yet... We also syringed her some baby food, about 4-5ml?

I took a look at her stitches and one bit looks quite red and spre, but the rest looks ok. There's quite a lot of dried blood on it still, I thought she would have cleaned that off by now?

Argh!! 

We've got the vets at 9.30 in the morning, it's to see the nurse but I'm thinking we're going to ask to see the vet as well...

:?


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## Haley (Jun 5, 2008)

Oh geeze, Im so sorry to hear shes not doing well tonight.

Id keep her warm for now and also hydrated- pedialyte if you have it. Is she eating ok?

I really think she needs to be on a stronger antibiotic, or those abscesses are going to keep coming back. Did you ask about the beads that can be implanted? That might be a good alternative to injections.


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## juliew19673 (Jun 5, 2008)

Oh Hang In There Chalk!!! Really hope things start to turn around. Please post if you can after the Vet tomorrow.. Saying my ray:now for the lil bun.


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## Bo B Bunny (Jun 5, 2008)

Oh no How is she doing?


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## AngelnSnuffy (Jun 5, 2008)

Oh dear, how is she now? It worries me that her ears are cold with shallow breathing.


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## JimD (Jun 5, 2008)

ray:


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## SnowyShiloh (Jun 6, 2008)

How is Chalk doing?? She's worrying me! Please tell us she's okay. Just how shallowly was she breathing? Tallulah shallow? You saw the video... Poor Chalkers. I hope the Metacam kicked in and she's feeling more restful now and you're all asleep. Or, actually, it's 9:18 where you are, so I guess by now you should be at her appointment! I'm actually headed to bed now, I hope to hear good news in the morning.


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## mouse_chalk (Jun 6, 2008)

Sorry to worry everyone so much! Although, I was pretty worried myself... I was so worried about coming downstairs this morning and what she would be like... I felt terrible for not staying up with her but I felt so ill myself...

She's moving a lot better this morning, before we went to bed last night she had gotten up and was sitting a bit more normally, her ears warmed up a bit too... We had the head pad in there all night, and she must have used it, because there were little poops on it this morning! Smaller than usual though, but poo is a good sign I guess!

She's still really not eating a great deal, she nibbles hay on and off, and nibbles a bit of romaine/spring greens etc, and she's had the baby food we've syringed her... 

Actually, as I speak, she's gone over to her breakfast and started nibbling some green beans, basil and lettuce!

So, she's doing a bit better, but it's still so on and off. One minute she's moving ok, the next she isn't. One minute she looks like she's eating, the next she isn't... :?

We took her to the vets earlier, and her wound is looking ok, although she's managed to pull out most of her stitches, cheeky thing. The vet said to just keep going with the metacam and to try and syringe feed her as much as possible if she wont eat... He did say that she didn't seem dehydrated though, so she must be drinking something, I guess when we aren't looking!


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## Marietta (Jun 6, 2008)

Chalk gave me quite a scare! I'm so relieved things are better than they looked...I hope she recovers smoothly.

Marietta


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## pumpkinandwhiskersmom (Jun 6, 2008)

How's Chalk today? My computer has been acting up, so this is the first I've been able to read an update! I've been so worried about the poor little girl. Are her ears any warmer? I know that really freaks me out. Hope to hear consistently good news about her soonest. Thinking of Chalk, Mouse and, especially you!


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## slavetoabunny (Jun 6, 2008)

:sickbunnyoor Chalk! She has been through so much lately. She's lucky to have such an attentive bunny mommy.


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## Bo B Bunny (Jun 6, 2008)

Awww poor baby is just so sore probably she doesn't want to eat much. Plus she's getting the baby food..... maybe she likes that LOL! 

Keep us posted please....... I really have been thinking about her an awful lot!


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## SnowyShiloh (Jun 6, 2008)

I'm glad to hear things are looking up today! Did the vet not feel the need to replace the stitches? Also, I thought I read that bunnies shouldn't have green beans onder:...


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## juliew19673 (Jun 6, 2008)

Go Chalk Go!!!!


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## AngelnSnuffy (Jun 6, 2008)

*SnowyShiloh wrote: *


> Also, I thought I read that bunnies shouldn't have green beans onder:...



Shiloh, you are correct about this. Although, I used to give my first bun one or two out of a can before I cooked them cuz he loved them knowing they shouldn't have them:embarrassed:. They can just cause some gas.

I'm so happy and relieved to hear Chalk is doing better today! I was quite worried about her.


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## cheryl (Jun 6, 2008)

I'mhappy to hear that she's doing much better now


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## Bo B Bunny (Jun 7, 2008)

I watch the gassy causing things myself. I give maybe a tiny little nibble of broccoli if they are all feeling well - normal poos etc. 

Bo has tiny poos...... CILANTRO TO THE RESCUE!!!


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## mouse_chalk (Jun 7, 2008)

Green beans aren't ok?!!?!! :shock:

I found them on a safe list on www.houserabbit.co.uk which is the website for the Rabbit Welfare Association and Fund, on the information leaflets there ages ago, they've been getting them just occasionally for months now, only a few at a time. They love them, and there's never been any signs of gas/funny poo.... :?

Chalk's doing so well today! We're keeping a very close eye on her still, but she's been eating the food by herself as soon as it goes down, and lots of hay too.... We had all the bunnies out in the garden earlier and she was running about doing lots of binkies! I'm not sure how much of a good idea it is to let her run about so soon after surgery but she just looked so happy, and now that they can finally go out in the garden I thought it might cheer her up a bit! Plus the vet said that even though she's managed to pull out all of her stitches the wound is still looking really good, and having checked it a couple of times today it looks fine...

Gosh, I'm all worried about the green beans now... We never gave them to SnowBarn, as they seem to have sensitive stomachs, but Mouse and Chalk have never had funny poo with any veg we've given them, I don't know if maybe they are just more adjusted to them as we started early or something.... :?

Jen xx


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## Phinnsmommy (Jun 9, 2008)

How's my baby Chalk ?


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## AngelnSnuffy (Jun 9, 2008)

It's ok, Jen. It's not like it's a poison, just a "classified" gassygreen. That's all, dont' overly worry about it, it's okay!

How's Chalk doing?


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## pinksalamander (Jun 9, 2008)

I haven't commented on this thread yet but NO GREEN BEANS? Lottie gets green beans alot (its one of her main, cabbage, brocolli, green beans!). I've never had any problems. I also saw it on the house rabbit website! :?

Fran  :hearts :brownbunny

*EDIT:* Now i'm confused... when you say 'green beans' are bad do you mean runner beans? Thats what Lottie gets. I don't know if there is an american/english difference?


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## mouse_chalk (Jun 9, 2008)

Ok Crystal, so if the green beans don't cause them any gas or any problems, are they ok to feed in moderation still? They don't get tons of them, but they do like a munch every now and then- I eat loads of them lol! Mouse and Chalk seem to have very hardy stomachs, apart from Chalk's problems that is lol- *knocks on wood*

Fran, I mean the 'fine' or 'dwarf' beans, as they're known over here.... they look like this:










I've never fed runner beans, I wasn't sure if they were ok or not?

Chalk's doing great still! She was out in the garden with the other 3 yesterday, and did binkies by the dozen! We've reduced her Metacam dose last night to see how she does, but she's been stuffing her face with veggies and hay, not many pellets just yet but that took a while last time... Her wound still looks really good and no lumps as yet... 

We're due to go back to the vets on Saturday to get the stitches out, if there's any left! 

Thanks guys!


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## Marietta (Jun 9, 2008)

Green beans, cabbage, cauliflowers, broccoli, brussels sprouts can cause some bunnies a gassy incident. i guess that they are in the safe veggies list which you mention probably because they are not unsafe per se, and can cause gas problems only to some buns, not all of them. However, I've seen them listed as safe, BUt with a notation as far as gas is concerned. I don't ever give any of them to my bun, because he has had tummy trouble in the past, so I avoid anything that could cause any potential problems.

Marietta


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## SnowyShiloh (Jun 9, 2008)

Oh gosh, Jen, I dreamed last night that I was reading RO and you updated the thread to say that Chalkie died! I'm so relieved to know that isn't true, thank goodness she's safe and happy and getting better. Also, sorry to freak you out with the green beans! I'd think if they've handled them well in the past and you aren't feeding them 40 beans at a time, they should be okay. Though maybe with Chalk's recovering gut, you should hold off? I'm sure it's fine though  Rory has never had any health issues and eats broccoli and cauliflower just fine, but I'd never have fed it to Tallulah because of all her issues.


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## mouse_chalk (Jun 9, 2008)

*SnowyShiloh wrote: *


> Oh gosh, Jen, I dreamed last night that I was reading RO and you updated the thread to say that Chalkie died! I'm so relieved to know that isn't true, thank goodness she's safe and happy and getting better. Also, sorry to freak you out with the green beans! I'd think if they've handled them well in the past and you aren't feeding them 40 beans at a time, they should be okay. Though maybe with Chalk's recovering gut, you should hold off? I'm sure it's fine though  Rory has never had any health issues and eats broccoli and cauliflower just fine, but I'd never have fed it to Tallulah because of all her issues.


Gosh, what a dream Shiloh! :hug: I'm happy to report, that luckily, Chalk is still very much alive.  She's been in the garden all afternoon and evening with the rest of the buns, and you should see the binkies she's done! We've just given her the antibiotics and Metacam, the reduced dose still, and she sure hates me for them, but seems to be doing fine on the lower dose. 

The green beans thing, I don't know, they've only ever had like 3 or 4 between them at once, and it's not very often, just when we have them in and I can spare them! So since they've never had any troubles with them, I guess I'll still feed them in moderation, especially since they seem to like them a lot! I probably wont get any more in until we get the all-clear for Chalk, just to be on the safe side. She's never had so much as an excess cecal where digestive problems are concerned *again, knock on wood* but I love my little baby and don't want to take chances...

Also, her Baytril is due to end tomorrow, so I'm gonna call the vets and see if they want it to stop or give us some more... I see no sign of abscesses again as yet... Fingers crossed that I don't either!


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## AngelnSnuffy (Jun 10, 2008)

*mouse_chalk wrote: *


> *SnowyShiloh wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Oh gosh, Jen, I dreamed last night that I was reading RO and you updated the thread to say that Chalkie died! I'm so relieved to know that isn't true, thank goodness she's safe and happy and getting better. Also, sorry to freak you out with the green beans! I'd think if they've handled them well in the past and you aren't feeding them 40 beans at a time, they should be okay. Though maybe with Chalk's recovering gut, you should hold off? I'm sure it's fine though  Rory has never had any health issues and eats broccoli and cauliflower just fine, but I'd never have fed it to Tallulah because of all her issues.
> ...



Shiloh, I see nothing wrong with feeding green beans in moderation. I know this is not normal protocol, but I fed my first bun one or two in moderation, very irregularly, mind you, with no problems. So, if they love them, I say go for it.

Glad to hear the abcesses are gone too! Though, in the chance they come back no baytril. I would go for something stronger for sure.


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## mouse_chalk (Jun 10, 2008)

That's ok then, glad that's been cleared up, thanks Shiloh and Crystal! Green beans aren't like their favourite food, but they do like them, they always get eaten, as opposed to lettuce that gets left... 

But yeah, hopefully the abscesses wont come back, but if they do, I'll be pushing for our vet to use much stronger antibiotics... He said that it was possible, and he certainly seemed open to it being tried. I think that the reason he wanted to avoid it if possible is that I'm not sure that over here they will let clients to sub-q injections at home, so Chalk would have to visit the vets everyday, and although it's only a 3 minute car ride, it's still stressful for her.... But will be a small price to pay if it comes to it! 

Chalk's still doing AMAZINGLY well, I'm just so happy she's better! She's given us both such a fright, and we know that we are so lucky to have her with us still, causing mischief for a long time to come I hope... She bit my hand through the towel the other night when we tried to give her meds, and bruised it! All I could do was kiss her little head and tell her I loved her, because it's so nice to see her with so much energy again lol!


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## Haley (Jun 11, 2008)

Im so glad to hear Chalk is still doing ok!

I was just reading through my old thread when Max was so sick with a horrible tooth root abscess- I had almost forgot how stressful and heartbreaking it is to watch your little one go through that.

I'll be thinking of Chalk and praying for her to continue to be abscess free!


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## jcl_24 (Jun 12, 2008)

"She bit my hand through the towel the other night when we tried to give her meds"

Sounds as though she's in bunny fit form 

Jo xx


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## Michaela (Jun 12, 2008)

Really glad to hear about little Chalk doing so well.


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## SOOOSKA (Jun 14, 2008)

Oh my goodness, I've just read through both of Chalk's 2 blogs. That poor little girl has been through so much. I'm so happy to read that she is doing much better.

You guys both did a great job of taking care of your little girl.

Susan


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