# Pellet Only diet? (with some veggies)



## Tweetiepy (May 31, 2010)

Can and should a bunny have a pellet only diet? They get some carrots but they don't have any hay.

My son has a friend who has two female bunnies that don't eat hay but they get pellets and carrots (not sure what other veggies they get) - I was going to ask them if we could share a bale of hay but found out that they don't eat hay.

Not sure how healthy the bunniesare (one was blinded by the other so now they're in separate cages)

Is not eating hay any good for the bunny?


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## tonyshuman (May 31, 2010)

It is ok if the bunnies won't eat hay, but you need to be really sure that that's what's going on. A number of causes other than personal preference can lead to a bunny not wanting to eat hay, like tooth problems, hay type, an abundance of pellets and veggies, and hay quality. If they know there are no problems with the back teeth, the hay is fine and tasty, and they don't feed too many other things, then it's ok because they just may not be hay-eaters. You do have to keep a closer eye on bunnies that don't eat hay because they are often more prone to GI slowdown and stasis, though. Also, if a bunny didn't eat hay, I'd want to make sure the pellet was very high fiber and they got fresh grass as often as possible.


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## fuzz16 (May 31, 2010)

to many carrots arnt that good, and too many pellets will make a fatbunny which is not good either...some sort of hay is needed for them to help with digestion and to keep from getting sick from grooming or else their fur will block up in them


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## Pipp (Jun 1, 2010)

A pellet-only diet is not good at all, and it will likely become evident when they're older and end up with dental issues and other ailments related to the fat content.

The pellets may be nutritious (depending on the brand and the particular rabbits' needs), but they won't wear down the teeth. It may result in molar spurs when the rabbits are young as well as tooth root issues when they're older. 

Pellets can also lead to obesity. Even though a rabbit may not appear fat, that may not be the case seeing as the fat is stored under their skin and collects around their organs. 

If they don't get hay, they need a very wide variety of vegetables and/or bunny safe grasses, leaves, flowers, twigs, etc, to make up for it. If you look at the pic in my avatar, that's the size of the salad my non-hay eating dwarf needs everyday in order to keep her spurs at bay. She also gets a very small handful of extruded pellets.


sas


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jun 1, 2010)

A pellet only diet is perfectly fine, especially for those who are not knowledgeable enough to modify the diet. The trouble is just that the rabbit ideally has an extra fiber source and in this case, it's more difficult because hay is not a factor.

For a pet rabbit, I'd suggest a pellet that is low in fat (about 1.5%) and lower in protein (15% or lower). If the rabbit will not eat hay, there should also be a high fiber content to the pellet also. If you get a pellet high enough in fiber, the rabbit may not even need an extra source of roughage. Some people keep rabbits on strictly pellets and they do fine.

But ideally, there is an extra source of roughage. So I would try some different kinds of hays and see if the rabbit prefers one over the others. Or look into adding some veggies that are high in fiber into the diet.

Pellets, like anything, can be good alone. But it has to be a nutritionally balanced or well supplemented pellet. Feeding the wrong kind of pellet, unlimited, is what will cause health issues.


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## Milly_Molly2 (Jun 1, 2010)

Hay is the most important part of a rabbit's diet. They need at least 80% hay/grass in their diet. Pellets should be around 10-20%.


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## Pipp (Jun 1, 2010)

OakRidgeRabbits wrote:


> A pellet only diet is perfectly fine, especially for those who are not knowledgeable enough to modify the diet.
> .....
> If the rabbit will not eat hay, there should also be a high fiber content to the pellet also. If you get a pellet high enough in fiber, the rabbit may not even need an extra source of roughage.
> .....
> Pellets, like anything, can be good alone. But it has to be a nutritionally balanced or well supplemented pellet. Feeding the wrong kind of pellet, unlimited, is what will cause health issues.



This unfortunately is the breeder attitude that has caused dental disease to reach epidemic levels. It has little or nothing to do with the percentage of fiber in the content, it's the length of the fiber itself. Pelleted food crumbles when eaten, it provides very little chewing motion. An extruded pellet, manufactured with longer bits, is better, but only marginally better. And very few pellet brands are extruded.

Rabbits also spend their normal waking hours foraging and chewing. Without hay or at least a big selection of other vegetation, its a pretty boring life. 

Almost all rabbits need some pellets for nutritional balance, but an pellet-only diet is irresponsible. They must have hay or other vegetation as well.


sas :grumpy:


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## Milly_Molly2 (Jun 1, 2010)

*Pipp wrote: *


> OakRidgeRabbits wrote:
> 
> 
> > A pellet only diet is perfectly fine, especially for those who are not knowledgeable enough to modify the diet.
> ...


completely agree.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jun 1, 2010)

*Pipp wrote: *


> OakRidgeRabbits wrote:
> 
> 
> > A pellet only diet is perfectly fine, especially for those who are not knowledgeable enough to modify the diet.
> ...


We all have our own opinions, and you are able to express yours without consequence, so I would appreciate if I could express mine as well. I didn't quote your opinion and call it the unfortunate pet owner attitude that leads to obesity and digestive complications. That's just unnecessary and name calling won't solve the problem. There is more than one way to do everything, and whether we all agree or not, it is best for the owner to take all opinions into consideration and then formulate a diet that works best for them and their rabbit.

I have come across many rabbits who are not hay eaters at large, although they do nibble here and there. But I make sure they have fiber supplemented elsewhere (as in a pellet, for example), to keep their system moving. And then include other toys or branches to chew on to wear down the teeth. I've never seen dental disease at all, my rabbits are very healthy.

ETA- Also, remember that I didn't say a pellet-only diet was _ideal_. I did say that an extra source of roughage beyond pellets is ideal, and I do feed my rabbits hay and believe that it is a great supplement to their diet. But some rabbits are just not big hay eaters and do just fine with a slightly modified diet, like I mentioned above.


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## Pipp (Jun 1, 2010)

OakRidgeRabbits wrote:


> We all have our own opinions, and you are able to express yours without consequence, so I would appreciate if I could express mine as well.Â
> ......
> I didn't quote your opinion and call it the unfortunate pet owner attitude that leads to obesity and digestive complications.




Okay, I apologize.  

But I will say I think 99.9% of vets will blame pellets and treats, not hay and veggies. 

And the points that stood out in your post were the following: 



> A pellet only diet is perfectly fine, especially for those who are not knowledgeable enough to modify the diet.
> ....
> Pellets, like anything, can be good alone.



However, IMO if you were stranded in a house on a desert island and could only feed your rabbits all pellets OR all hay, it should be all pellets. 

Although I'd far prefer all veggies with the right variety. Or even a wide variety of hays and grasses. 

The key word here really is VARIETY, and that goes for nutrients AND proper teeth wear. 


sas


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## Milly_Molly2 (Jun 1, 2010)

hay shouldn't be a supplement. It should be the vast majority of their diet. Rabbits will do better on a hay only diet than a pellet only diet. My rabbits get 90% hay and 10% pellets. They are very healthy. Hay is so important, I can not believe that it is not considered that important on here.


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## tonyshuman (Jun 1, 2010)

The question here isn't about what every rabbit should eat; it's about what to do if you have a rabbit that doesn't like hay. This is about 1/20 of all rabbits, from my experience. In general, yes, hay should be the main component of a healthy adult non-breeding rabbit's diet, 80% or higher. BUT, if your bunny is one of the 5% that just refuse to eat hay, regardless of hay type, hay texture, lack of dental disease, etc, it is OK to not feed them hay. You will have to provide something that will wear their teeth down, like lots of veggies or fresh grass, and keep a closer eye on their digestive tract for slowdown, but it is possible for a rabbit to survive on a diet that doesn't include hay.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jun 1, 2010)

*Milly_Molly2 wrote: *


> hay shouldn't be a supplement. It should be the vast majority of their diet. Rabbits will do better on a hay only diet than a pellet only diet. My rabbits get 90% hay and 10% pellets. They are very healthy. Hay is so important, I can not believe that it is not considered that important on here.


Alfalfa is the only hay that could possibly be tried as a stand-alone diet, I'd think. Grass hays are usually too low in protein and fat to provide for the rabbit's nutritional needs, especially a very active pet rabbit or a show or breeding rabbit.

Nutritionally, a good pellet is a more balanced stand alone diet than just hay would be, although I know of people who have done well with both pellet-only and hay-only diets, based on what was available to them.

As Pipp said, regardless of what a person chooses to feed, _variety_ is the key to an *ideal diet*. I was not undermining the importance of fiber in the diet, but not every circumstance is ideal, unfortunately. Some rabbits just don't really like or want to eat hay, so we have to think of other alternatives.


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## dixonsrabbitry1 (Jun 5, 2010)

Yes a rabbit can do just fine on a pellets only diet, as long as they are getting the right amount. which is about a half to a full cup per day for small breeds. A little over a cup for larger breeds. fruits and veggies are nice to feed them as treats now and then, but not nutritionally necessary. And you have to watch them and feed them in moderation because they can cause some pretty severe health complications that can lead to dental disease, and GI stasis. In all of my years of raising and keeping rabbits as pets, I have never had one that has developed dental issues from eating pellets. I don't know of anyone else that has either, and breeders have a very, very large network. The only time a feed will cause problems is if there is a toxin in it. Dental disease is caused by a number of things, poor nutrition, pulling the teeth on the wire, and gentics. In my experience, along with that of others, pellets do not cause it. Actually the only way they *could* cause it is if the animal is not getting enough of them. So in other words most rabbits will do just fine on a high quality pellet(not the pet shop junk), that is low in protein, and high in fiber. My rabbits only get a handful of hay every so often and they are fine. Some feed theirs all the hay they want, while others feed only a few handfuls a week, and they are still fine. 

It could be the rabbits don't like the hay that is given to them. trying getting them on a grassy type alfalfa hay. Most rabbits will dig right into it.


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## Spot (Jun 5, 2010)

I feed my rabbit pellets with fresh fruits and vegetables but not much hay.Is this ok?I have never seen my rabbit eat hay anyway and she is happy,healthy,and 8 years old.


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## Amy27 (Jun 5, 2010)

Ty, my rabbits can be picky about hay. Have you tried different brands and different types. I usually feed mine mostly Timothy. I get some from a local place and some from kleenmama's hay online. My rabbits go crazy of kleenmama's hay but just nibble on the local hay I buy. I also pick up different kinds in the small bag at the petstores like meadow, orchard, and bermuda. They enjoy the variety and will nibble on some types and others they will eat it like they have never eaten before in their life. And of course their favorite is the most expensive.


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## dixonsrabbitry1 (Jun 5, 2010)

As far as vets go, most know very little about proper rabbit nutrition, let alone see them. You have take what little they know with a grain of salt, because if they give you the wrong information it can really harm your rabbit. 

Spot, your bunny should be fine as he is in good health and condition. And you aren't having any issues.


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## Spot (Jun 5, 2010)

Thanks.I will continue to do what I do.In a few weeks when I get my new bun I will see if he will eat the hay.If he eats it then I know my other rabbit is just being picky but if he doesn't than i'll know that its probably the hay.I'm actually out of hay right now so when I get more I will put a small portion in her bowl and see if she eats it.


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## slavetoabunny (Jun 5, 2010)

Our dearly departed Vinny came into rescue with severe dental issues and couldn't eat hay. He would try and just couldn't do it. Our vet had us supplement his diet with a Critical Care mush (which he loved) for fiber. He was able to eat pellets and the only veggie he liked was arugula.


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## Spot (Jun 5, 2010)

I'm sorry to hear about that.I don't think my rabbit has dental issues because she yawned or something like that and her teeth looked healthy.She also chews on lots of toys,etc.


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## dixonsrabbitry1 (Jun 5, 2010)

i would suggest trying to buy it from a local farmer if you can get it. It may be in a big bale,but it will be much cheaper, and fresher then the pet shop stuff. You can also talk to them to make sure they aren't adding any chemicals to help it dry faster, like they do some of the store bought brands.


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## Spot (Jun 5, 2010)

I buy it in a big bale and I pay $2-$3!I think it's a really good deal!


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## Violet Crumble (Jun 5, 2010)

There is a difference between a pellet _only_ diet and a pellet based diet. Yes, a rabbit can survive and even thrive on a pellet only diet IF you're feeding the good stuff. I see all too often that most pet rabbit owners feed their rabbits food they bought at a pet store or even Walmart. *shudders* They don't read labels and don't have an understanding of the ingredients and how they can help (or hurt) their rabbit.

My suggestions.....buy from a feed store and buy a well known brand like Purina Mills (_this is NOT_ the dog food "Purina" company that paid to use the checkerboard logo), Nutrena, Manna Pro, King, etc. These companies have animal science nutritionists with PhD working for them full time at their research facilities and keep abreast of, and create, the most up to date information on research based rabbit nutrition. The *only* rabbit food company that sells their products at pet stores that I could recommend is Oxbow. However, you can get the exact same or better quality at a feed store and pay only about 1/2 to 1/3 of what you'll pay in a pet store.

It pays to read labels, including feeding guidelines that are on evey package of rabbit feed. Hay (either alfalfa or timothy) is the main ingrediets in nutritionally balanced pelleted rabbit food. It reads just like any super market nutritional fact/ingredients label - with the first ingredients listed as being what is used most in the product. 

Your friend need not worry that much about her son's rabbit rabbit not eating hay though I would recommend finding a good hay that it will eat. There are so many good choices - timothy, oat, orchard, fetch, etc. Barbie Brown is quite the expert when it comes to the nutritional break down of hay varieties and hay blends. You might suggest your friend Google for a consult. I'm sure she can help find *some kind* of good rabbit hay that the rabbit will like. 

My rabbits have preferences for different types of hay and I know which ones they like and could tell you how my rabbits rank them. lol. But there are also other reasons, besides just preference, that a rabbit might not eat hay. Moldy hay (looks like dust but not the normal bit of dirt dust that is a by product of baling it in the field), teeth problems, age and/or packaging of the hay, or some other health problem that has nothing to do with the hay. 

Again, I recommend purchasing quality hay from a feed store and not those "bread bag" hays you see at pet stores. The feed store employees can/should tell you exactly where it came from and when, what cutting it is (this affects nutritional values), if its a blend - what percentages of what grasses are in it, etc., etc.. AND you can buy an entire bale for what you'd pay for 2 smal bread bags of pet store hay. If a bale is too much for you (it keeps for 3 years if stored properly) then split a bale with friends or ask the clerk if he'll bag is down for you because you don't need a whole bale. 

The difference in quality between pet store and feed store pelleted food and hay is incredible - like night and day. I can see why those that don't have much experience with rabbits might think pelleted based diets are not good. I would not waste a penny on pet store stuff, myself. It's junk. Switch to the stuff the the exibitors use and your eyes will be opened. 

Most exhibitors use a pellet _based_ diet. That means that the core of the nutrition comes from a nutritionally balanced food in pellet form. By volume, the rabbits eat very little of this (read labels for feeding guidelines) because it is concentrated nutrition. They'll also get hays, bark, veggies (at the appropriate age), and sometimes "special" conditioners used to give their rabbits that extra "oomph" during the show season.

Any concerns about using a pellet based diet are easily dispelled by just a glance at, and running your hands over, a show rabbit. They'll have thick, luscious coats, be lean and muscular, and bright eyed and bushy tailed (alert and as active as their specific breed typically is).

Do encourage your friend to investigate the hay issue. It may be as simple as switching to another variety or it may be that there is a health issue present. But, barring those, in the end, your friends rabbit should be fine and live a long life on 
"just" a pellet diet (reads: _quality_ pellets). Purina Mills even makes a higher fiber pellet (Fibre 3) that some like (and some don't) jic the rabbit owner can't get the rabbit to eat hay and is still concerned about it.


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## LV426 (Jun 5, 2010)

I would say it would depend on the actual pellets. Regular pet store pellets are little more than junk food. Especially ones with whole corn and brightly colored kibble mixed in. 

But there are some really good pellet diets out there like Mazuri and Pfau which are the two I use. Now don't get me wrong I also offer Timothy hay because well I own a bunch of hay eaters and why not feed everyone hay. Because I have tortoises (Russians and a Redfoot), I offer all my critters a pretty balanced diet. Here are the foods I give my rabbit along with his pellets and Timothy hay. 

Red and green leaf lettuce
Endive
Escarole
Radicchio
Chicory 
Kale
Collard greens
Mustard greens 
Bok choy (small amounts) 
Spinach (although limited because of the oxalates and calcium binding)
Dandelion greens (I grow my own but you can buy organic ones at Whole Foods Supermarket
Broccoli, 
Arugula
Chard. 

I also grow my own pasture mix in the yard so I can feed a mixture of good healthy greens. 

Pasture mix consists of 
Fawn Fescue
Ryegrass
Orchard grass
Timothy
Bluegrass
White Clover
Alsike Clover

Then there are the various plants I grow in the yard that I feed trimmings from. 

Hibiscus (flowers and leaves)
Hosta
Sedum
Hen and Chicks
Ice Plants
Prickly pear flowers, fruit and pads (burn the spines off)
Plantain (not the banana type fruit....the weed plantago major)
Mallow (flowers and leaves)
Henbit
Rose (flowers and leaves....make sure no systemic pesticides were used)
Chrysanthemum flowers
Cornflowers Plagiobothrys ssp
Forsythia (flowers and leaves)
Dayflower Commelina diffusa (flowers and leaves) 
Chia Salvia hispanica

So that's my grand rabbity diet. Granted most people won't grow things like this for their animals and my dad thinks I'm crazy for actually buying dandelion seeds and growing them in my yard along with the other weeds. lol 

But since the question was can rabbits live on Pellets alone, well yes they can. Is it the best for them? Probably not, they could use more variety. Will it kill them? If it's low quality and full of junk it could. You just have to be selective of the pellets you use.


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## Spot (Jun 5, 2010)

LV426,I didn't know they could eat hosta trimmings.I have tons of those.My rabbit eats purina rabbit chow but it gets fed to her with fruits and vegetables too.Pellet foods can be one of the rabbits foods but that shouldn't be their base food.They need a variety of fruits,vegetables,etc. to stay healty.Oh and don't forget the hay.I have seen rabbits that go crazy and eat a ton of hay and I've seen rabbits that eat it but don't eat very much of it but regardless which one your rabbit is,they need hay.


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## dixonsrabbitry1 (Jun 5, 2010)

Purina is good. Watch it if its the corn based, green bag formula. Corn isn't good for them I would try to go with something like the show formula, or fiber3. Just make sure you keep it in an area where it will stay fresh.


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## Spot (Jun 5, 2010)

Uh oh!It is in a green bag!Should I keep feeding it to him.He has been eating it for around 8 years.


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## dixonsrabbitry1 (Jun 5, 2010)

Just keep an eye on it. They changed the formula from corn free, to corn based last year. As long as you aren't having any issues he should be fine.


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## tonyshuman (Jun 5, 2010)

Thanks for letting us know about the pellet change--we feed the green bag to baby bunnies at the shelter, and the pickier bunnies that are used to "pellet food mixes", and I often recommend it. Will have to do some new research on it, now that it has changed!


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## Pipp (Jun 5, 2010)

A lot of great info in this thread.  


sas :bunnydance:


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jun 5, 2010)

A little bit of corn in the diet won't hurt. I had always heard that corn was bad as well, but I've actually heard many opinions for it recently. Just like anything, you don't want to feed too much of it but it is a good source of energy in moderation.


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## dixonsrabbitry1 (Jun 5, 2010)

No problem. Just keep an eye on it. There was a lot of problems with toxins in the corn, in the feeds last year. If you see any type of entropathy(?) , get them off of it, and see your vet. I lost alot of babies ot it last year, and I will never feed corn based feed again. It wasn't purina, it involved a couple of other brands though.


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## Spot (Jun 5, 2010)

I am relieved nowWhen I get my new bun in a few weeks should I take the chance and try using this food?


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## dixonsrabbitry1 (Jun 5, 2010)

*OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *


> A little bit of corn in the diet won't hurt. I had always heard that corn was bad as well, but I've actually heard many opinions for it recently. Just like anything, you don't want to feed too much of it but it is a good source of energy in moderation.




Until you end up dealing with a nasty toxin in it, like many of us dealt with last year.


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## Spot (Jun 5, 2010)

When I get my new bun in a few weeks should I take the chance and try using this food?


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jun 5, 2010)

*dixonsrabbitry1 wrote: *


> *OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *
> 
> 
> > A little bit of corn in the diet won't hurt. I had always heard that corn was bad as well, but I've actually heard many opinions for it recently. Just like anything, you don't want to feed too much of it but it is a good source of energy in moderation.
> ...



Most livestock and pet feeds do include corn, though. I understand that there have been some problems associated with corn based feeds, just as there are problems associated with pellets in general, veggie diets, fruits, etc. There can be troubles with any food, depending on the amount that is given.

I'm just saying that I wouldn't fix what isn't broken. If a food has been working well for someone for years, it's not worth changing it because all feeds have their downfalls. It's just about finding what works for your buns in particular.

I think nearly every feedmill cleans out their machines with corn between batches of feed. It is my understanding that this is what caused last year's issues.


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## LV426 (Jun 5, 2010)

*Spot wrote: *


> LV426,I didn't know they could eat hosta trimmings.I have tons of those.My rabbit eats purina rabbit chow but it gets fed to her with fruits and vegetables too.Pellet foods can be one of the rabbits foods but that shouldn't be their base food.They need a variety of fruits,vegetables,etc. to stay healty.Oh and don't forget the hay.I have seen rabbits that go crazy and eat a ton of hay and I've seen rabbits that eat it but don't eat very much of it but regardless which one your rabbit is,they need hay.


Oh yes my whole zoo eats hosta trimmings. I have to becareful in summer because if the tortoises get out they will eat my hostas down to the ground. They are a very nutritious plant. In fact some asian restaurants will decorate their plates with flowers from the H.plantaginea. They are rather tasty. I've put the flowers in salads before when my dad visits, mainly so I can make him eat flowers ;-) . The brand new shoots when the leaves are still furled are also tasty. I like to put them in salads. They taste sort of asparagus like. I know that some people cook the older leaves somewhat like collard greens but I'm not fond of the older growth because it's got a bitter taste. The rabbit and tortoises don't seem to care either way.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jun 5, 2010)

*Spot wrote: *


> When I get my new bun in a few weeks should I take the chance and try using this food?


If your bunnies are healthy, maintaining a good weight, and have a shiny coat, that food should be fine to use. Those are all indicators of a good diet.


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## Spot (Jun 5, 2010)

My rabbit is an ok weight but that's because I like to give her a little extra food because she's a good rabbit lol.Her coat is shiny and very soft.The pellet food is not her main food though.She gets fresh fruits,vegetables,etc.I will continue to do what I doThanks!


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## Spot (Jun 5, 2010)

*LV426 wrote: *


> Oh yes my whole zoo eats hosta trimmings. I have to becareful in summer because if the tortoises get out they will eat my hostas down to the ground. They are a very nutritious plant. In fact some asian restaurants will decorate their plates with flowers from the H.plantaginea. They are rather tasty. I've put the flowers in salads before when my dad visits, mainly so I can make him eat flowers ;-) . The brand new shoots when the leaves are still furled are also tasty. I like to put them in salads. They taste sort of asparagus like. I know that some people cook the older leaves somewhat like collard greens but I'm not fond of the older growth because it's got a bitter taste. The rabbit and tortoises don't seem to care either way.


They don't look to tasty to me but that's my opinion lol.By the look of them I actually thought that rabbits weren't supposed to eat them.I always cut things off of my hostas when they get really big because they start to take over the whole area.From now on the rabbits will get the things I cut off


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## dixonsrabbitry1 (Jun 6, 2010)

*OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *


> *dixonsrabbitry1 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *
> ...


No what caused last years issues was the corn based feed. the mills cleaning out their systems didn't help any either. Some guy out on the east coats had his feed tested, and they found black corn mold toxins in it. most of the corn harvested last year ended up being a bad crop. 

The thing is when I went to purina all the deaths that I had going on stopped. That was before they switched formulas on the green bag. Opened up one bag that was full of corn, and ended up with sick rabbits again. So I put them on pro bios and switched to the corn based show formula. There were thousands of rabbit slost to bloat to it. Some people lost their entire herds. The feed that seemed to be causing it was manna pro, kent, pen plas, and blue seal 17. The later was the one the mold was foundin. 

Then we had the ARBA telling us oh wells guys. Its just the weather. Sorry about your luck.


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## Violet Crumble (Jun 6, 2010)

In order to offer more understanding of the _quality _pelleted foods, proper feeding of it (and the mistakes people make when feeding pelleted rabbit food), explain what some of the important ingredients in pelleted foods can do for your rabbit, AND explain the changes that were made in the Purina line of rabbit feed.....see this page:

https://www.rabbitchow.com/PRODUCTS/default.aspx

and CLICK ON THE VIDEO LINKS on the right hand side of the page entitled"Introducing the Natural AdvantEdge Formula" and "Glen Carr: Natural AdvantEdge Feeding Trial". The first video includes explanations of ingredients, changes, and differences between the various formulas (Including Fibre 3). The Glen Carr video is excellent for explaining the why and how of feeding pelleted foods and the common mistakes that people make when feeding their rabbits pelleted foods.

Enjoy.


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## Violet Crumble (Jun 6, 2010)

Ugh. Try THIS link: https://www.rabbitchow.com/PRODUCTS/default.aspxto see the videos.


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## Violet Crumble (Jun 6, 2010)

:?What am I doing wrong? Okay, type into your browser: rabbitchow.com and then click on "products" to go to "rabbits". The page will come up and THEN you can click on the videos. Lets pray the link does not come out all jumbled this time, huh? lol


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## Violet Crumble (Jun 6, 2010)

I give up. It's rabbit chow dot com. :rollseyes


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## Debacus (Jun 6, 2010)

Just a quick note that straw is also very useful for long fibre (barley straw being softer)


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## elrohwen (Jun 6, 2010)

Nutritionally, rabbits are almost identical to horses. Many horses survive on only grass, or grass plus hay. I don't know any horse owner who would consider feeding only a grain or pelleted based diet with no hay or grass and I feel that bunnies require the same type of diet. Pellets are a good source of concentrated nutrition, and I'm sure are necessary for nursing does or outdoor rabbits (who have to deal with cooler temps) especially, but I wouldn't recommend a pellet only diet for a pet rabbit and neither would any of my vets (all rabbit specialists). I think having an additional fiber source is so important.

I also think that many of the feeds sold at feed stores are intended for breeding and meat rabbits. Nutrition for a meat rabbit that will grow quickly and not live past a few months won't necessarily be the same feed that I want to give my pet rabbit. A lot of agricultural colleges do research on rabbit nutrition that is only related to growing quickly and efficiently without spending a lot of money - this research doesn't necessarily apply to my house rabbits, which is why I prefer to follow the House Rabbit Society guildelines. Just saying a rabbit has healthy fur and is at a healthy weight isn't enough to know that they are truly healthy and will remain so for many years. A person can be thin and look healthy while eating only fried food, but that doesn't mean that they are healthy internally.

Just as a pasture pony can survive fine on grass and roughage while a show horse needs grain and other suppliments, I think our lazy pet rabbits do better on a low pellet diet with lots of hay and veggies.


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## Violet Crumble (Jun 6, 2010)

*elrohwen wrote: *


> I also think that many of the feeds sold at feed stores are intended for breeding and meat rabbits. Nutrition for a meat rabbit that will grow quickly and not live past a few months won't necessarily be the same feed that I want to give my pet rabbit. A lot of agricultural colleges do research on rabbit nutrition that is only related to growing quickly and efficiently without spending a lot of money - this research doesn't necessarily apply to my house rabbits....




This is not really so. Most of the breeds at shows are not commercial rabbits even if theydo fall into the catagory of "meat breeds"and are also their owner's pets. What is available at the feed store is good for every pet rabbit (see the Purinia videos). And what you may think is a food marketed for commerical rabbits or "professionals" is not just for those ventures. For example, Angora breeds might benefit from feeding the Professional (grey bag) because the higer protein levels can keep them in the best health because their coats are constantly growing. I know more than a few show folks who've kept their 'meat' breeds on these feeds and they lived 10 and even 15 years. Those breeds are remarkably long living if fed properly. An ill rabbit rabbit can benefit from pelleted foods because the owner (if they understand what's in the feed) can administer concentrated nutrition to a tube/syringe fed rabbit. Despite common myth, (quality) pelleted feeds are not just for commerical ventures or to grow a rabbit to a certain end. If they did not work for a great variety of rabbits (over 47 uninque breeds and needs), show exhibitors would not use them and the feed companies would not thrive.We are thereal life catalystic laboratories.

I'd never give pet store pellets to a rabbit that is "just" a pet. I kept feeding my dog the same food her breeder give his show team. Why not give them the best especially if its easy and affordable to obtain? 

If anyone is interested....I feed my own dwarf breed rabbits (a 'pet' breed) Purina Show inmeasured amounts(whether or not I am showing them), timothy hay (preferable), oat hay, and premium orchard grass hay, and vegetable greens. I rarely (pretty much never) give them the root part of the carrot and never bananas but I'm interested in seeing how they like the peels.  Those that I show or non-show rabbits thatseem to becomeless active, I give them a teaspoon of Mint Condition-ER(an herb and grain mix). *reveals secret*

Anyway, I like that a lot of good, varied, advice his been given.  Some parents feed their children very strict diets, whole food diets, relaxed diets (thinking fast food), etc. There are many ways to do it. It's nice to have so many here that have such varied experience and itcan present it without coming across as uncongenial or arrogant.


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## dixonsrabbitry1 (Jun 6, 2010)

The thing is today's domestic rabbit has been bred to eat commercial pellets. Which are nutritonally complete. They are not like horses, and I doubt horse owners feed them lots of fruit and veggies anyhow.  

most domestic rabbits can't handle eating a fruit, herb, and veggie based diet, because of that. and they are also not designed to eat large amounts of them. 

There are universities that do seem to have operating rabbitries on their campuses. That provide all kinds of information on proper nutrition of rabbits. Unfortunately, I probably won't be able to share their good information, because they mention the *m* rabbit word.  

The nutritonal needs of pet rabbits are no different then that of breeding rabbits. Many of us also keep pets along with our breeding herds. they are on the same diet the others are. I have several that are going on 5-6 years old at the moment that have been fed pellets all of their lives. Never have had an issue with the gut, or anything else mentioned above that it believed pellets cause. 

As far as the veggie and herb information goes, yeah, some rabbits will do well on it. others won't. the problem is its a diet that has never been thoroughly researched. And there are problems with it. It causes many more problems that would never see with pellets. Rabbits that are fed pellets don't generally get dental disease, or GI stasis, unless they are of poor quality, or as mentioned above, there is a problem with them. One thing I don't understand is why vets would use this information if its not researched, and it could cause some harm. When ten years ago or so, they were using information provided by the ARBA, and there has never been that many issues with it.At least not nearly as many as the house rabbit diet. I know someone that tired following the HRs diet, and it killed their rabbit.


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## elrohwen (Jun 6, 2010)

I don't know that that's true - have we really selectively bred rabbits to eat our foods? Considering how similar they are to horses in both digestion and ailments, I still think that hay and "veggies" (for horses this is grass) are far more of a staple than has been believed in the recent past.

And I also don't know if I believe that the feed store pellets are better than something like Oxbow. I totally agree that they are better than pellets with a lot of junk in them from pet stores, and I think they're good for rabbits, but I don't buy the company's advertising that they know everything there is to know about rabbit nutrition and are formulating appropriately. I've worked long enough in the (human) food industry that I don't readily believe claims like that. I think a consumer is better off looking at the package information and making an informed choice. Saying that feed store pellets in general are by far the healthiest is a bit generic.

If neither pellet only nor veggie only diets have been fully researched, I'm still going to go with the HRS recommendation of 2cups of veggies per day. I don't believe that we have domesticated rabbits long enough that we have changed what they need to eat (dogs have been domesticated longer than anything and still have the same dietary requirements as their ancestors - I don't think there's evidence that they do the best on grain and corn based diets so common in pet stores). I'll continue to feed my rabbits like I would feed a horse. I can totally understand that rabbitries require different feeding programs because of the large number of rabbits, but that doesn't mean a pet owner should necessarily feed the same things.

Do you have sources for how the HRS diet has caused more issues with pet rabbits? You keep claiming this, but I'm not sure where you're getting your information. And claiming that feeding veggies killed someone's rabbit is a bit dramatic - there are plenty of things that can kill rabbits. Some people's rabbits choke on pellets and die, so I find your statement to be a bit fear mongering. I'd like to see evidence.


eta: I also know how much hard research and journal reading medical professionals really do, including vets, so I find it hard to believe that they are promoting a diet that hasn't be researched, as you said. I would be more inclined to believe a vet over a feed company.


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## Happi Bun (Jun 6, 2010)

*dixonsrabbitry1 wrote: *


> They are not like horses, and I doubt horse owners feed them lots of fruit and veggies anyhow.


Actually, the rabbits digestive track is more similar to that of a horse. I've had horses for a big chunk of my life (even showed them). Their diet would consist mostly of a hay mix, which is the alternative to what they would eat in the wild (grass and other plant matter, long roughage in other words). They would also get a serving of high quality grain daily and time out in pasture to graze. Just like with rabbits, it's important to keep a horses digestive track moving. This is accomplished by providing long roughage/hay. 

I do not believe in a strictly pellet only diet for rabbits. Pellets do insure they get everything they need nutritionally so I believe it should be a small part of the diet, but hay keeps the track moving and pushes any possible obstructions out of the way. To me a good diet has a variety of healthy foods. My rabbits diet is made up mostly of timothy hay, then a small amount of high quality pellets (Oxbow or Purina are great), then veggies/herbs.


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## dixonsrabbitry1 (Jun 6, 2010)

*elrohwen wrote: *


> I don't know that that's true - have we really selectively bred rabbits to eat our foods? Considering how similar they are to horses in both digestion and ailments, I still think that hay and "veggies" (for horses this is grass) are far more of a staple than has been believed in the recent past.
> 
> And I also don't know if I believe that the feed store pellets are better than something like Oxbow. I totally agree that they are better than pellets with a lot of junk in them from pet stores, and I think they're good for rabbits, but I don't buy the company's advertising that they know everything there is to know about rabbit nutrition and are formulating appropriately. I've worked long enough in the (human) food industry that I don't readily believe claims like that. I think a consumer is better off looking at the package information and making an informed choice. Saying that feed store pellets in general are by far the healthiest is a bit generic.
> 
> ...


Well oxbow is considered a pet food. Its one of the better ones out there. But most breeders that I know don't use it because its expensive, and it doesn't condition the rabbits out like some of the others do.

The system of the domestic rabbit can't handle a large amount of veggies, and greens(other then some herbs, and hay). Rabbit breeders(and a lot of pet owners) tend not to feed them because we have a lot of experience with feeding them, and know what it can do to their digestive systems. They do make nice treats now and then though.  We are also very nutrition conscious when it comes to feeding our rabbits. We want want what is best for them, and something they can thrive on and do well on. Most buy the best that is on the market, that is formulated to fit the needs of our rabbits. Right now, IMHO its purina fiber 3. High in fiber, low in protein, and fat. rabbits love it, and look good on it. When i consider doing a feed chance, the first thing I do is look at the tag on the bag. If it has something in there I don't like, I skip it. There have been hundreds of thousands of rabbits fed on them over the years, with very little problems. So we must be doing something right.

If you look on the hrs website there is something on there saying that they changed the recommendations because they were having problems with it. I know they upped the pellets from 1/4rth of a cup, to 1/2 per five pounds of body weight. I think the amount of veggies were adjusted too. I am on some pet rabbit forums, where many of the bunnies end up ill from GI and dental issues. The problems went away when they reduced the amount of vegetables, and increased the pellet intake. I wish there was more information on the net about the cons of the diet, but there isn't. And there certainly isn't any scientific studies that you can find that says certain rabbits were fed out on it, that is why its better for them. At least I haven't been able to find any. A friend of mine emailed them at once, asking for a study done on their diet. They told him that there wasn't one. That they fed a few thousand rabbits on it, and it worked for them.

Pellet diets have been extensively researched. I think i mentioned that above? Out of all the feed companies, i think purina has done the most research on them. Though I could be wrong. They used to have their own rabbitry where they produced the livestock feeds. I just wish it was available on the net where you can find it. 

The thing that I have found out about vets is that many of them have never had any experience with rabbits at all. Not even by keeping them as pets, or raising them. Most know very little about rabbit nutrition. even the diet they recommend of the hrs site. Because most pet owners are not going to know how make sure such a diet is balanced, so that the rabbit is in good condition and getting the right amount of nutrition.

About ten years ago, I used to use a vet in the area that was very savy about keeping rabbits. I do believe he promoted the pellet diet. He has long since moved away, and none of the others know anything about them other then trimming teeth and toenails. I had to show my current vet how to administer baytril. Now that's pretty bad.


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## dixonsrabbitry1 (Jun 6, 2010)

*Happi Bun wrote: *


> *dixonsrabbitry1 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > They are not like horses, and I doubt horse owners feed them lots of fruit and veggies anyhow.
> ...


i agree with this. your diet is probably well researched and balanced too.


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## dixonsrabbitry1 (Jun 6, 2010)

Ok wait is this from the other thread? I am really confused now. I thought it was closed? We had a really good discussion going on there.


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## Happi Bun (Jun 6, 2010)

Huh? I'm not sure what you mean. 

To be honest, I try my best to follow the guidelines on the HRS website. 

They still list pellet intake for an adult as;
_
1/4 to 1/2 cup pellets per 6 lbs. body weight (depending on metabolism and/or proportionate to veggies) _

I try to give my bunnies an organic Spring Mix salad every night. It consists of; Organic baby lettuces (red & green romaine, red & green oak leaf, lollo rosa, tango), organic red & green chard, organic mizuna, organic arugula, organic frisÃ©e, organic radicchio. They usually even get parsley on top of that, I grow it outside in a pot.

My bunnies would surely go on strike if they didn't get their salads.


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## dixonsrabbitry1 (Jun 6, 2010)

There was another discussion that was going on here at the same time about going pellet free. I think it got split off into another thread.  I think I got it sorted out now. 

I bet they would! LOL!


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jun 6, 2010)

*elrohwen wrote: *


> I don't know that that's true - have we really selectively bred rabbits to eat our foods?


This is actually a somewhat true statement. It's not as cut and dry as you typed here, but similar.

The pellet was originally developed as an easy-maintenance and cheap way for domestic rabbit breeders to nutritionally balance their rabbits' diets. Although I do supplement with grass hay, I know a lot of breeders who say that if a rabbit can't do well on it's pellet, the pellet is not doing it's job.

Now, when exhibitors show, condition is weighted heavily in nearly every breed. As breeders, we choose to breed our most successful rabbits into our herds, which are often the animals with the best condition. Clearly, these animals are the animals who do best on the pellets we feed as well. So indirectly, yes. We have been selectively breeding our rabbits for years to thrive on pellets.

I am certainly not saying that fiber and sometimes protein supplements are not necessary or helpful. But domestic rabbits have been raised on commercial pellets for decades. I think this is why we see a lot of digestive complications in rabbits who are fed lots of greens or "too many greens". Every rabbit is individual, so some may do well on that, especially if it's what they grow up on. But if I were to make a general blanket statement, I'm one to suggest pellets over a pellet-free diet, for these reasons.

Hopefully my thoughts were collected enough. I know it was kind of all over the place!


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## Violet Crumble (Jun 7, 2010)

*Happi Bun wrote:*


> To be honest, I try my best to follow the guidelines on the HRS website.
> 
> They still list pellet intake for an adult as;
> _
> 1/4 to 1/2 cup pellets per 6 lbs. body weight (depending on metabolism and/or proportionate to veggies) _


LOL. That IS a_ pellet based _diet. The same one that show exhibitors use - pellets (in the same portions as you listed), hay, and greens. So, why the back and forth? Just to be contrary? *chuckles*  I like the humor of human nature, especially when we can see humor in ourselves.

If you're feeding a pelleted feed that is worth anything, your rabbit IS getting it's core of balanced nutrition from the pelleted feed. That's the base that you build on. Then you add hays (for several reasons) and greens if you like. Just as long as you don't go over board on anything and carefully watching the effects it has on your rabbit you're doing things fine and dandy.

I feed my 3 lb rabbits 1/4 cup pellets per day. They also get good hay and treats like veggie greens or the mix I mentioned earlier but I'm not thinking that just because my rabbits are eating a handful of hay and greens that they are getting the bulk of their nutrition from it just because it looks more bulky than the little bit of pellets I gave them. No, they're getting the main balanced nutrition from the pellets. Again, I really wish people would read labels and strive to understand them. It might also help to take the time to find out what it really is that we're horrified about.


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## Happi Bun (Jun 7, 2010)

I mentioned what you quoted because dixonrabbitry1 stated that HRS changed the amount of pellets recommended daily. I'm a bit confused by your post to be honest, note it's 1 AM and I'm currently suffering from a cold. Actually my bunnies diet is based off of hay more than anything, it makes up the bulk. Then the pellets and variety of veggies. The back and forth is because the OP wanted to know if an all pellet diet is recommended and there was some disagreement. Though I think we all agree that a varied diet is best and hay is definitely an important part of it.

:bunny19


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## irishbunny (Jun 7, 2010)

My rabbits are fed mostly pellets, my rabbits get 1/2 cup of pellets daily and hay. I think a strictly pellets only diet would be pretty boring and kind of dangerous. A few times a week I give them other things, some vegetables, grass and weeds from my garden, branches to chew on a few pieces of cereal. 

If it is due to money you want to feed them just pellets, it is actually cheaper to cut down on how much pellets you give them, buy a large, cheap bale of hay and feed them an unlimited amount of that and get things from your garden or a families garden (make sure nothing has been sprayed on anything you pick!) and that would help give them some variety.


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## jcottonl02 (Jun 7, 2010)

I'm not sure, but I think I missed the humorous part of this convo....:? ?

I think everyone here is entitled to their own opinion and their own views on rabbit diet ; if someone wants to choose an all-pellet diet, or a no-pellet diet, or a mixed then that is their own decision, and I am sure they are making it the best for their rabbit.

The bulk of my rabbits' diet is hay and vegetables, with a very small amount of pellets, just to ensure I know they are getting what they need. One weighs 4 1/2lbs, and the other weighs 6lbs. They both get just over an 1/8cup of pellets (slightly less for Benji because he's lighter) and a large salad of at least 3 different veggies a day (i guess this must equate to about 4 or more cups). Along with occasional fruit treats, and the occasional pinch of rolled oats (which they go crazy for! ). This diet works perfectly for them, in my opinion.

I do believe that a very small amount of pellets is a good idea, and unless you know exactly what you are doing on a pellet-free diet, to just add that little suppliment of pellets, to ensure those calories, fat and nutrients. 

Jen


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## elrohwen (Jun 7, 2010)

dixonsrabbitry1 wrote:


> *Happi Bun wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *dixonsrabbitry1 wrote: *
> ...




I'm not sure how you disagree with most of what I say, yet agree with Happi Bun who is promoting the same thing??? Unless you're being sarcastic, which isn't very helpful.

I'm not saying that the diet I feed is the only way to feed a rabbit, or that they cannot be perfectly healthy on a pellet and hay diet. The purpose of my post is to point out the large holes in reasoning in your post and the problem with some of your assumptions. Other rabbit owners are going to read this post and I wanted to get answers to the questions that your post brought to mind.

Btw, as far as HRS guidelines go, they site sources on the diet page and have not changed pellet amounts as far as I can see. http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-4/pellets.html

If you are going to quote the HRS and make claims about what they recommend, I would recommend reading their website first.


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## dixonsrabbitry1 (Jun 7, 2010)

No not being sarcastic. As long as the rabbit is healthy, and the diet is thoroughly researched its fine. The thing is not all rabbits can handle that. Again it comes down to selective breeding. 

I am not sure what you mean by loopholes. I am only sharing my experiences with feeding my rabbits, and the diet in question.

This was what I was talking about. I see they have changed it again. It also conflicts with the link you posted. They have two different diet recommendations going on at the same time. This is the one they added recently. Used to say if you are having problemswith the diet to contact them. I see they have replaced that with provide them with lots of hay and straw. And have also changed feed 1/2 a cup per five pounds of body weight, to 1/4rth, to 1/2 a cup of pellets per six pounds of body weight. The original also said to feed them 4 cups of veggies per five pound sof body weight. I remember that one because I knew a rescue worker at one time that had to adjust that because when she tried feeing it, her rabbits were getting many vegetables, and not enough nutriton from it. She upped the pellets to 3/4rths of a cup for her flemish giant, and a half a cup for the mini rex. Which is actually more ideal to feed. Yep I have read their website plenty of times.  



http://www.rabbit.org/faq/sections/diet.html



I know if I were to feed 1/4rth of a cup of pellets to my six pound rabbits, plus all the veggies, they'd starve, become unhealthy and end up having all kinds of problems. Then again I have no clue on how to make sure they would be getting all the nutrition they would need either.


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## elrohwen (Jun 7, 2010)

I don't see that the new link is much different - they suggest pellets from 1/4 to 1/2 cup, which is a bit more than before, but they also suggest proportionate to veggies (and are still recommending 2 cups of veggies). It seems almost exactly the same to me.

I'm still confused then why Happi Bun's diet is fine, yet you don't like the HRS diet?? That's what she is feeding. 

I found some of the assumptions made in your previous post to be unsound, so I wanted to get answers and fine out where you were coming from with those assumptions. Like I said, I don't think there is only one healthy way to feed rabbits, but if we are going to discuss what is best I can't help but point out the loopholes in reasoning that may cause someone to feed one diet over another. In my mind, the major assumptions that stood out to me were that vets don't read research on diet, that feed companies do extensive research and know what is best for pet rabbits (as opposed to breeding rabbits), that a rabbit who *looks* healthy must *be* healthy long term, and that we have evolved rabbits to the point where they are perfectly adapted to what we want to feed them. I'm not denying that your rabbits get a good diet, I just wanted things to be clear for other rabbit owners reading and I didn't think it was clear where these assumptions were coming from or if they were accurate.


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## LV426 (Jun 7, 2010)

See the one thing I'm going to counter some of you on minimally is that rabbits can't handle greens. I think that greens like grasses and weeds and such are just fine. Like my pasture mix I grow in the yard and the dandelions. Rabbits can eat as much of that as they want and it won't harm them. But most people aren't growing pasture mix in their yard. They are going to the supermarket and that's where the problems come in. Grocery greens and vegetables have been genetically engineered to contain more sugars and be easier to digest for people. That's not necessarily a good thing for rabbits. Hell I'm not even sure they are good for people. Maybe the obesity pandemic isn't only from fast food but from genetically modified foods. I'm also cuntering the "pellets are evil" mindset. Pellets were created to balance out a diet of hay and grains that were initially being fed. To keep up condition and weight and prevent medical problems.

Even Meat Breeders need to have quality feed so their breeder rabbits can continue producing quality litters. Those breeders live longer than just a few months so saying that the meat industry only feeds pellets so they can fatten up rabbits for food is inaccurate at best. Not to mention that a lot of meat breeders are also show breeders.

Show breeders want the best for their rabbits just like a pet owner but I will tell you that showers have probably done 100 times the research that pet owners have because a pet owner just wants to feed their rabbit and play with it and don't expect any flashy coats and prize winning feats.


I also want to mention something about horses. Horses can not live and be healthy on grazing in a pasture alone. I'm sorry but it's not possible. First off if you let a horse graze freely in spring when the new growth is coming in you will kill your horse. They can't handle the sugars in spring growth and it gives them colic. Especially if they've been on a hay only diet all winter. Second, most pastures are not varied enough in the grasses grown to provide enough nutrition. Wild horses would travel hundreds of miles eating various foods as they go along. Eating everything from bark to grasses, seeds, weeds, and cactus. There's no way to provide enough nutrition in a pasture unless you specifically plant enough of a variety of foods for them. They need to be supplemented with hay and at least some grains depending on age. I'm saying this because I've had to be involved in enough rescues where people turned out their horse to eat the grass in the pasture because they were too cheap to go buy them horse feed and hay.
So to sum it up, Horses and Rabbits can not live on pasture (greens) alone.


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## elrohwen (Jun 7, 2010)

I don't think anybody here recommended a no-pellet diet either, so arguing against that is kind of counter-productive to the discussion. Most of us are advocating a variety, which includes a large amount of veggies and hay, in addition to pellets. At the minimum, for a rabbit owned by someone who doesn't want to give veggies, myself, and some of the others here, are saying that hay is important in addition to pellets.

And I claimed that horses are fine on hay and pasture diets - I'm sorry if I implied that pasture only was fine, because that is not what I was saying. My point was that horses do not need supplements and grain unless they are doing extra work, nursing, need help maintaining weight, etc. Since the grass and hay they eat is the most important part of their diet and the bulk of it, it makes sense that these things would be the bulk of a rabbit's diet as well. I don't think I ever came close to implying that rabbits could live on greens alone. If you read my post, I was claiming hay should be the largest component of the diet, with pellets taking up the smallest portion, just as with horses, hay and grass are the most important with any grains coming in at the smallest portion. I think you are taking my comments out of context and I hope this has clarified some things.

I think it's also a fallacy to claim that pet owners do not care about the health of their animals as much as breeders. There are members of both groups who care more or less about this, but in the past few years the house rabbit population has grown and more and more people are extremely interested in the diet their rabbits are receiving. Pets in America, in general, have gained greater importance in the last 10-20 years and rabbits are no exception, so to say that pet owners don't care about the health or condition of their pets is not correct.

Claiming that the obesity epidemic among humans is caused be genetically modified vegetables, rather than poor diet choices involving high levels of fat and sugar is naive. I'd also like to see the research you have on this.


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## LV426 (Jun 7, 2010)

Sorry about the badwording thing. It was supposed to say Countering but I typoed. Oops. 

No I don't have research to say that genetically modified foods are part of obesity but really if you look at it from an objective standpoint the foods we eat today are not the ones that we were eating 100 years ago. They have high sugar content and nutrition content. Even nutrition that we don't necessarily need. The same can be said for rabbits. 

To me it seems like the anti-pellet people are just going to stay against pellets and the pellet people will stay pro pellets no matter what anyone says.


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## elrohwen (Jun 7, 2010)

I guess I'm trying to bridge the gap here and point out that we're all advocating pellets are part of a balanced diet. There is a no-pellet thread going on and I didn't see anywhere there advocating that diet either. I think we all agree that they are a part of a balanced diet. We disagree on how large a portion of the diet they should make up. And since this thread was asking if a pellet only diet is ok, many of us were sharing our opinion that variety from hay and veggies, as well as pellets, is important.


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## Violet Crumble (Jun 7, 2010)

*jcottonl02 wrote: *


> I'm not sure, but I think I missed the humorous part of this convo....:? ?
> 
> I think everyone here is entitled to their own opinion and their own views on rabbit diet ; if someone wants to choose an all-pellet diet, or a no-pellet diet, or a mixed then that is their own decision, and I am sure they are making it the best for their rabbit.
> 
> ...


I did not mean it as a derogotory statement. 

When we can see our human nature with a light heart we can sometimes find humor in it. In this case, the human nature is to want to be right or to be contrary to one another even if we are discussing the exact same thing. 

Perhaps a perfect example can be seen in the children's book Red Hat, Green Hat ( http://www.amazon.com/dp/0307165043/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 ). Two people (in in this case, birds) are arguing over the details of the exact same thing (the hat) simply because they see it from two different perspectives. It IS the same hat. Nothing core changes about it. The details are just described differently by each person, erm, bird. 

What we are doing here is not really any different. Some say that a quality pelleted food is the base, others say it is a supplement yet we are giving our rabbits the same amounts of it based on there weights, activity, demands and then also giving them hays and veggies. So what's the difference? There is none. Why the long discussion? Because we all have different perspectives of the same thing the pellets.

If one would understand that the pellet is a nutritionally balanced blend of appropriate rabbit foods in highly concentrated, dry form, they will see their rabbit's diet as pellet based. To aid in understanding this for visual learners, read the label of your rabbit pellet bag, scoop out the recommended amount for the weight and lifestyle of your rabbit listed on the bag, put it in a bowl and add water. It will bulk up tremendously. Not only that but after reading the label and understanding it, you'll understand that it is highly nutritional and balanced.

If one would understand that hays and veggies make up the BULK of the same diet (pellets, hays, veggies) then they will see (literally see) that you give more hays and veggies than you do pellets so the bulk of their rabbits diet is, in fact, hays and veggies, right? 

Both viewpoints are correct. The only differences are minor. If the diet you're currently using is working for your rabbit, awesome.  Of course, you're going to recommend it to others. But understand that it is okay to accept that their will be variences in what others feed their rabbits. 

Again, going back to a child's diet or intake of foods. As a mother of a very picky eater, that is now age 13, I can assure anyone, that as long as your child (or rabbit!) is eating *something* that resembes food that you know has the base nutrients he needs to sustain life AND is clearly healthy, there is NO need to worry. Really. 

If the original rabbit in question only eats pellets, and nothing else, that is okay. If they are feeding their rabbit quality pellets (pet store stuff does not fall into this catagory unless it's Oxbow) so that they know he is getting the nutrients he needs to sustain life, they are following the feeding instructions on the bag, AND their rabbit is clearly healthy there is no need to worry. Really. 

I'm loving this thread. It's good and lively and enjoyable as long as people are cordial. I like that we can learn a lot from each other if we make room in our minds to test different ideas (or perspectives).


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## jcottonl02 (Jun 7, 2010)

Ah I can see where you are coming from. But there are quite a lot of contrasting views here, which is great because everyone is entitled to their own opinion. There is a no 'perfect' diet for pet rabbits so I guess there will always be people who prefer one way, and those that prefer another.

It's also very confusing that we have two threads going at the same time with totally contrasting titles, but based on exactly the same thing lol! It would be much easier to merge the two together! 

I'm always inclined to go with the House Rabbit Society recommendations, or at least use that as my base guideline. They obviously research thoroughly into what they do (hence the sources cited etc.) and are an extremely reputable source for rabbit care and diet. There are many great arguements for both a much lower pellet diet, and a much higher pellet diet, but I'm more inclined to sway toward the low pellet diet, just from my personal research, reading and life experiences with my rabbits.
Lots of Hay, lots of grass, veggies and pellets are my buns' every day diet, and that works perfectly for me  but I know of many people here who give a pellet-only diet, and even someone who gives a no-pellet diet and both their rabbits appear equally healthy and happy etc. 

It is a great discussion- a fabulous way to learn from eachother and perhaps even adjust our own rabbits' diets if we get more info we weren't aware of. I was adjusting my rabbit's diet for the first few years until I found the "right" one 

Jen


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## dixonsrabbitry1 (Jun 7, 2010)

*jcottonl02 wrote: *


> Ah I can see where you are coming from. But there are quite a lot of contrasting views here, which is great because everyone is entitled to their own opinion. There is a no 'perfect' diet for pet rabbits so I guess there will always be people who prefer one way, and those that prefer another.
> 
> It's also very confusing that we have two threads going at the same time with totally contrasting titles, but based on exactly the same thing lol! It would be much easier to merge the two together!
> 
> ...


I agree. It was one whole thread up until two days ago. Don't worry, it had me totally confused too.


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## jcottonl02 (Jun 7, 2010)

Lol haha was it? I have been totally preoccupied with my exams so I haven't been on here as religiously as I was a month or so ago .

I think it's great actually that there are now two, very in depth discussions about both extremes of rabbit diet. Great info and really interesting.

Jen


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## elrohwen (Jun 7, 2010)

I agree, Jen. An all pellet or a no pellet diet are definitely opposite extremes and I think discussing both in two separate threads is really helpful.


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## jcottonl02 (Jun 7, 2010)

While I personally would never advocate either extreme (even though they can be done perfectly healthily etc. etc.) is because I think you really have to know what you are doing. If someone is asking for advice about it, then they probably (yet) do not know enough to pursue it. 

BUT it is great to see both extremes and get the experiences of those people who are knowledgable enough to feed those, as you can really see the benefits of both. Perhaps incorporate some of the opposite extreme to the diet you currently give, or move slowly towards one side or another. 

It's much easier to see it in two different threads, so whoever split them- that was a great idea. But it did confuse me for a moment!!!!

In the end it's just about the rabbits. Whatever best you can possibly give. And that's what we are all trying to do here  and I am honestly so thankful for this site. Every (new) rabbit owner should be forced to join! 

Jen


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## slavetoabunny (Jun 7, 2010)

I don't know how much this will benefit the discussion, but just wanted to add my :twocents worth based on my 8 years of experience.

I spare nothing to get my bunnies the best in both hay and food. I buy American Pet Diner pellets and Kleenmama's hay. This is for both my own two and the three fosters.

Each day, all of my buns get 1/4 of pellets, unlimited hay, and a salad of mainly romaine, some cilantro, a (very) few baby spinich leaves, and one baby carrot.

My own buns have been on this diet for 6 years now and are very healthy. The fosters also do well on it.

I just wanted to comment on what has worked for me.


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## Pipp (Jun 7, 2010)

*Violet Crumble wrote: *


> If the original rabbit in question only eats pellets, and nothing else, that is okay.


Violet, I'm taking this comment out of context, your posts have been awesome and balanced, and I know you're not advocating this, but its the best sentence I could find to make my point.  

Kids survive for years on not much more than chocolate bars and candy, adults live at McDonalds and smoke. Chances are greater the kids will have a lot of cavities and the adults will grow old with heart disease or other issues. 

This isn't to say its going to happen. When studies say something is more likely to cause some ailment, the odds usually increase by 10 to 35% max, this isn't a 'eat/smoke and die' scenario.

My Dad spent his life on a diet of coca-cola, white bread and beef without even sniffing a fresh veggie, he never exercised and it eventually caused colon problems in his old age and it killed him -- at 94.

Genetics and environment are stronger factors. 

But no health experts who have kept up with the studies (keeping in mind it takes years of study for scientists to recognize the dangers) are going to recommend these lifestyles. 

A rabbit may live on a pellets-only diet, but there is a greater chance of dental disease and other issues. 

In recent times health experts have been recommending a 'natural' diet for humans -- whole grains, fresh produce, etc -- rather than the processed foods that became predominant in mid-century. 

Its no different for rabbits. The contents of the pellets may have nutrients, but many are artificial. They are processed. 

The most predominant thing to come out of a pellets-only diet is dental disease. But not all pellets-only rabbits, not even a majority, are going to end up with it, but a larger percentage will. 

Breeders may say, 'I've never had any problems', but aside from the odds, they don't often keep rabbits into old age (and often have a different concept of 'old') and they're not likely to have x-rays done on tooth roots, so their assessments may not be all that accurate. 

The safest bet for everybody is a varied diet. 

I'll post the same thing here I posted in the other thread. (And no, 'we' didn't split up the thread, somebody started one with the opposite question and info is being repeated, a bit confusing and time consuming, but if people prefer the subjects separated, I won't merge them and just repeat the board policy here in another post). 

Thanks to all for your input. 


sas


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## Pipp (Jun 7, 2010)

Taken from:Â  

What Do You Think of a No Pellet Diet?


The policy here is to recommend variety and try our best to provide a 'natural' diet. 

What people lose sight of, even with the interpretations from the HRS site, is different rabbits need different things, so the current trend of trying to micro-manage protein, calcium and other nutrients on a "one size fits all" basis is almost impossible.

You can not recommend x pellets per x pounds of body weight without taking into consideration the age, breed/physical attributes, brands and especially the rest of the diet *(edited to add) *and activity levels. 

Growing rabbits need extra protein and calcium, yes. Pellets aren't the only source, although in a lot of cases they are out of convenience or necessity. Rabbits not being fed pellets have to eat a LOT of vegetation in terms of types and volume. 

In the wild, more babies are born in the spring and it's spring grass and plants that have the higher levels of protein. (I love to see a study comparing the health of seasonal offspring, but that's another thread). Even aside from the breeding cycles, rabbits will have a rich diet in the summer and a lean one in the winter.

Even the bottom part of a hay stalk has more protein than the top part, and one field of hay can have substantially different nutrients than another. It also means that a diet of any one thing and/or from any one company, be it Oxbow or anybody else, may not be as good as a mix. 

Misinterpretation leads to more problems than strict adherence to some 'rules.' Its far easier and safer to go for variety and make adjustments based on their development. If you have babies or breeds that tend towards obesity, cut back on pellets and/or switch from an alfalfa pellets to a timothy, or tinker with the hay and veggies. If have breeds (like long-haired rabbits) or thin, very active growing rabbits, they probably require more. 

Large breeders have different requirements, they can't be making up big salads, finding tree bark and wildflowers, mixing up varieties of grasses and hays, etc, they need to pay more attention to the contents of their pellets and the development of their stock because pellets are the most balanced, economical and convenient food for their needs.

As rabbit science progresses, so does new information about certain diseases being caused by a misstep in commercial food or thoughts on rabbit care -- eg: for years nobody thought that rabbits needed more than nutritionally balanced pellets until dental disease became more common. Now the addition of hay is becoming the norm in rabbitries that previously fed pellets-only. 

I'm sure other things will appear in time, pinpointing reasons for not-well-understood ailments like bladder sludge, stasis, etc., plaguing house rabbits, and the extent and effects of obesity. 

Bottom line is that we should be more concerned with providing a varied diet. The chances that the rabbits will be getting a good balance of needed nutrients is much higher. 


sas :bunnydance:


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## Mrs. PBJ (Jun 7, 2010)

Good point Sas!!

For my bunnies they get 1/4 cup of pellets each and unlimited local grown hay and some Oxbow every week. One bunny can not handle salads and the other won't eat without the one that can not handle salads. so My buns are on a pellet and hay diet. With a salad once week. 

Like sas has said many times what works for one bunny might not work for another.


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## Pipp (Jun 7, 2010)

Kat, try advertising on Craigslist for organic landscapers who know where organic apple, pear and willow trees are and try supplementing their diet with that. 

Dried berry leaves and flowers may also be good options from those sources. 

Another post of mine on the other threads points out that people confuse the term 'vegetation' with 'vegetables'. Your rabbit may not be able to handle veggies like lettuce and parsley, but there are lots of other options. Buying a dehydrator is another one. 

If you're not sure about what you can get, you can also order flower and plant mixes as treats from online sites, they're just expensive and you may have to convince some rabbits they're edible. (As a rule I've found if one eats it, the picky guys follow suit eventually). 

How do they do with fresh grass? 

Also, for those able to handle 'fresh' greens, dandelions aren't the only thing common and edible. All kinds of weeds will work. A 'weed' is only a plant that nobody wants growing in their yard.  


sas :bunnydance:


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## dixonsrabbitry1 (Jun 11, 2010)

*Pipp wrote: *


> A rabbit may live on a pellets-only diet, but there is a greater chance of dental disease and other issues.
> 
> In recent times health experts have been recommending a 'natural' diet for humans -- whole grains, fresh produce, etc -- rather than the processed foods that became predominant in mid-century.
> 
> ...




Ihave rabbits in my barn that are six and seven years old. Have had several other older rabbits over the years. Have never had a problem with pellets causing dental disease. I know several other breeders that also keep older rabbits. We have a very large network, and if pellets were causing such problems we wouldn't be using them. Or we'd be pressuring the feed companies to change the formulas. I would think any problems that you would see would come from the few pet formula brands out there that are just horrible to feed to a rabbit. Too much protein, not enough fiber, too much corn, too much colorful stuff. I would know if my older rabbits were having tooth issues. They would go off feed, act picky, etc. The thing is to be in tune with them when it comes to *knowing* there is a problem going on that needs to be nipped in the bud. Which many breeders are. Kind of like having a sixth sense. The breeder prospective on on how old rabbits are is changing. Some think 4 years old is old, many of us think rabbits beyond six to seven years is old. I will have to check, but I think I have a doe that may possibly be pushing eight years. 

Do you have anything thatsays pellets cause dental disease, other then personal experience? Justwondering because you are the first I have heard say anythingabout it. I knowseveral working with rabbit rescues that have promoted a pellet based diet, and I have never heard of any issues from them involving it. Used to know someone that worked with midwest rabbit rescue and a few others. From whatI was told they fed purina rabbit chow, and possibly oxbow at the time. They fed an alternate version of the hrs diet, that consisted of pellets as the main diet, followed by hay, and then daily veggies and vegetation as treats. Never had any problems. Not even with their older rabbits. I also know a couple that are working with some rescues out in CA that are feeding more of a *breeder based* diet that aren't seeing any issues either. In fact I have been told that the rabbits are much healthier when they cut back on the greens, and increased their pellets. All the problems they did have with them GI and dental wise went away.


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## Happi Bun (Jun 11, 2010)

Is this really turning into yet another breeder vs pet- who is right, debate? It is pointless and counterproductive. I have come to realize they are two _very _different worlds with one common interest; love for bunnies. There has to be a middle ground we can agree upon if there is to be peace. I thought we all agreed Rabbits should have a diet with variety? 

I have a rabbit rescue friend that has a 14 year old bunny currently, two others of hers have lived up to 12 years of age. Their diet consists mostly of hay, then a variety of veggies and a small amount of pellets. She volunteers with the Sacramento House Rabbit Society. So that argument can go both ways.


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## LV426 (Jun 11, 2010)

I don't think this was a breeder vs rescue discussion at all. I think it was people indicating what method they use.


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## Happi Bun (Jun 12, 2010)

That's the vibe I'm getting from reading the posts, that's just me though. Of course everyone is welcome to their opinion I'm just worried about it turning into bashing rescue, pet people, and breeders.


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## jcottonl02 (Jun 12, 2010)

*LV426 wrote: *


> I don't think this was a breeder vs rescue discussion at all. I think it was people indicating what method they use.



I don't think this is what Erika was saying; she was talking about breeder and PET diets and how very different they seem. 

I myself was wondering slightly along those lines too. Surely there IS one more ideal diet for a rabbit, but it just comes into accordance with convenience for the owner as well, I guess. :?

I myself would like to know which diet (more pellet-based, or more natural based- I am leaning towards the latter by far) is more beneficial to the actual rabbit's health.

Jen


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## Mrs. PBJ (Jun 12, 2010)

Pipp wrote:


> Kat, try advertising on Craigslist for organic landscapers who know where organic apple, pear and willow trees are and try supplementing their diet with that.
> 
> Dried berry leaves and flowers may also be good options from those sources.
> 
> ...



Storm and Jessi get Fresh grass 3 times a week if my pots in the house are growing right. I have 6 going and they get them with there nightly treat be it a dried out apple piece or something of that nature. 

As for fruits I need to look into other things now you have the wheel turnings Sas


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