# the taste of blood



## rabbitgirl (Aug 11, 2005)

Several disturbing events made me wonder about something....perhaps someone has an idea about it.....

My pony is kept out at a friend's farm, and oneof their bigmares just foaled. She was in an observation pasture but broke out andgave birth in the woods nearby. They have five large, friendly,unaltered dogs that are supposed to keep coyotes and wolves away fromthe herd.

Those five dogs savaged the newborn filly. She had bites from head torump, including one horribly deep chunk out of her shoulder.

Against odds, she's doing pretty well, although she looks terriblyrough. The dogs had killed some guinea fowls near the same time.

In another episode, a pit bull in the area savaged a young girl. In myown backyard, several dogs tried to kill Izzy this winter.

So my question is: is it true that the taste of blood makes a dog adanger ever afterwards? I think the dogs that attacked the filly willbe put down or given away. But is that safe? Can they ever be trustedagain?

I do worry about Izzy and the rest of the herd from dogs in general,especially after this incident, even though we do have a safe setup now.

Does anyone have experience/opinions?

Rose

P.S. Carolyn, hoping this isn't too OT--it brought back flashbacks ofIzzy's near miss and I got to thinking. I'd like to know more for thesafety of all my fuzzies.


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## m.e. (Aug 11, 2005)

My opinion is that this "taste of blood" idea is nonsense.

The reality of the situation is _not_ that the animal has gotten ataste of blood, it's that they have developed a skill. They learn howto chase and kill an animal, and they want to do it again. Kind of likethe dog who learns how to get into the garbage or open the fridge. Itgets them some kind of reward, and they want to do it again.

For instance, our very old semi-feral cat is getting to the point whereshe's no longer a real threat to the local wildlife. She's deaf, herjoints are stiff, you get the idea. But earlier this summer she wasable to catch and kill a baby chipmunk as it was emerging from it'shole in the ground. Since that day (and this has been *months*,mind you), Beeper has sat and stared at that hole in the ground, justwaiting for another chipmunk to appear. Day in, and day out, she willbe by that hole.

The act of taking out a prey animal is something that can awaken theburied predatory instincts in domestic dogs and cats. Do they get the"taste of blood"? *No. *But do they have an inclination to repeattheir newfound skill? Yes.

So, in my opinion, a dog that has displayed predatory behavior willhave a hard time _not_ wanting to act on it. I don't believe dogslike that are completely without hope, or that they cannot berehabilitated. They just need more work. It's a _behavior_, andcan either be reinforced or thwarted.


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## Carolyn (Aug 11, 2005)

rabbitgirl wrote:


> Carolyn, hoping this isn't too OT--it brought back flashbacks of Izzy'snear miss and I got to thinking. I'd like to know more for the safetyof all my fuzzies.






A good question and a most valid concern. No worries on this end, Rose.


-Carolyn


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## naturestee (Aug 11, 2005)

They might be able to be rehabilitated if theowners realize that the dog can never, ever be outside or with otheranimals without their presence and being restrained.Especially with the pit bull, the safest thing in my opinion is to havethem put down.

My mom once told me about the last dog she had while she was growingup. It learned to kill chickens. They triedeverything, but eventually had to put the dog down. Itcouldn't be kept in the house because it liked to destroy furniture.


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## cirrustwi (Aug 11, 2005)

I believe, and I could well be wrong, that oncean animal tastes blood, it will want to taste it again. Or atleast that is the thought. Or once it kills something it willkill again. I've heard stories where it doesn't happen likethis, but I've also heard where it does.

As for the filly, first, the mare should have been in a large stall tofoal. Second, I think probably the smell of blood and thenthe filly attempting to get up probably attracted them. Idoubt they will go after a horse that's just sitting there.

And the attempts at Izzy, well there are lots of dogs out there that goafter rabbits whether they've ever gotten one or not. It'sjust in their nature. My Mom's Great Dane couldn't even beginto catch a wild rabbit and she's not allowed near mine, but she suredoes chase the wild ones.

The pitt bull, well, I'm a big fan of nurture over nature with thoseguys. I've experienced many, many pitt bulls in my job andjust life in general. They all have been perfectly lovelydogs who wouldn't hurt a fly and never had. However there arehorrible people out there who don't do their research and disciplinethem incorrectly and they become aggressive or they are really awfulpeople and fight them. After being fought, a dog, no matterwhat the breed, generally cannot be rehabilitated. It's veryfrightening how many people fight dogs everywhere in thiscountry. It's a problem from the big cities to the smalltowns.

Jen


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##  (Aug 11, 2005)

I have a questionon the taste for Blood aspect ,IF someone develops a taste forsay Chocolate , and Keeps going backto the chocolate even though they knowits wrong is that "The TasteFor" Or a skill ? Its the samepincipal . A Taste for smoking , even thoughits wrong again" a taste foror Skill ". 

I could go on and on about thisbut wont , Dogs that kill orattack other Animals or Humans need tobe put down plain and simple ,It will repeat the bahavior untill itis destroyed .

I was watching a Show a few Monthsback where a Police officer wasseverly bitten by a Dog , Hewanted it rehabilitated instead of beingput down Three timeshe approched this Dog afterrehabilitation and was Three more timesBitten , Finally It was decided thisDog could not be trusted aroundHumans and was Humanely Put to sleep. Was that Skill NoI dont think so . WasIt Biting out of Fear NO itwasnt , It Bit because it couldand wanted to .


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## seniorcats (Aug 11, 2005)

I have to agree with naturestree and gypsy. 

You say there is a group of them? It sounds as though theyhave developed a very aggressive pack mentality which means they willcontinue to hunt and kill as a group and they will continue to becomemore aggressive. Dogs in a pack, especially the alphadogs,can and will exhibit aggression to their human caretakers.

We had a pack of dogs on our road - some were dunped in the park, somebelonged to people who let them run. No one would takeresponsibility for them until the pack started attacking childrengetting off the school bus.

If they aren't afraid to go after a foal with the mare right there thenthey are already too aggressive. Personally, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near these dogs.


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## FreddysMom (Aug 11, 2005)

at the end of the day, animals are animals..asmuch as we would like to think we are superior and have control and canmake them "better"...they are going to do what they want when theywant. It sounds like these dogs are just as much a threat as thecoyotes. Its most difficult to remove that feral state from an animalonce it has realized its capabilities...usuallly these methods involvedsome sort of tranquilizer...but then that would defeat the purpose thedogs are being used for in the first place (in this case). I wouldn'ttrust them any farther than you could throw them, Rose.........arethesedogs free roaming on the property or confined to aperimeter area?not to raise concern but I'dbeworried about my pony if there was any chance they couldget near.


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## Spiced77 (Aug 12, 2005)

I dont think it's the 'taste of blood' that getsan animal going and keep going. it's the fact that they are a predatoryanimal. I've talked to a few people that have terrier dogs,and are as sweet as can be..and then one day it gets the opportunityand attacks a small animal, such as a mouse or gopher and the ownerjust cant understand what happened to their sweet loving pet.but that's what they're supposed to do. some can be 'tamed'etc.. and some dogs can be put in their place by asufficiently dominant owner that can show them what their pack statusis. unfortunatly a small baby animal is going toappear as prey. I'm not saying that you can never trust dogs oranything, we've had several in our family that are very loving,protective, even friends with the cats! but outside their home/denenvironment, without their alphas..i think they'll do what theywant/feel.

as for pit bulls.. well.. most dog breeds have a personality to them.and sometimes it takes a special owner to be able to control them andteach them.some really need an alpha owner that isnt afraidto show them their place.


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## rabbitgirl (Aug 12, 2005)

Thanks all. I really appreciate the discussion,whatever the outcome. It's unusual for me to say I WANT an animal putdown, but after seeing that poor torn filly...even after 10 days ofrecovery....and she's the sweetest thing too, obnoxiously friendly andhappy despite her rough start in life. No psychological scars at all.Quite a resilient little thing.

Jen, I agree the mare should have been in a stall tofoal.:?Freddysmom, the dogs are free-roaming and that doesgive me concern....however Destry beats the tar out of the entire pack.He just snorted at them with ears back and they scattered.

The thing about the mare baffles me. WHERE was she? Why wasn't sheinjured? Did she lose the baby in the woodssomehow? Whydidn't she fight? In all the confusion, I don't think anyone's thoughtof that yet....

The other thing is, what if you removed the alpha? Would that help? Or would they just choose a new one?

It scares me a bit seeing what they are capable of. And it makes nosense, what they did, because they are scared senseless of me, thecowards. I went after the pack yelling and screaming a couple weeksago, and they now hide when they see me. They weigh more than I do, andcome up to my armpits--Great Dane crosses.

I thought of them as annoying and obnoxiously friendly....now they seemmuch more menacing....especially when they surround in a pack....

Rose


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## Nicky Snow (Aug 12, 2005)

this to me is a very interesting question. 

as a dog owner all my life, i do believe that no animal kept as apetshould be fed raw meat. there is a natual food chain inthe wild, and to domesticate an animal, it needs to curb it's naturalinstincts somewhat, and that includes deterring the animalfrom the taste of raw meat/blood. you cannot blame an animal for doingwhat it may do in the wild, you can however blame the human responsiblefor raising the animal, or in this case, from protecting one animalfrom another.

Jen is right about nuture vs. nature, i believe in this with regards to all animals and that includes humans.

as to pit bulls, i feel VERY strongly about not only that breed, butall dogs. Certain breeds attract certain people. pits have recentlybeen banned in my province, and i think this is rubbish! i don't thinkany animal can be blamed for it's actions, when it was taught thoseactions from a human. i was taught by my dad how to act around dogsespecially, and i was charged at by a doberman when i was five, i didwhat my dad showed me and i was not attacked. and i was oncebitten once by a Shitz Tsu that attacked me with no provocation.

A dog bites/attacks a person, that is bad, no doubt.

We are so quick to killa dog, to try to control nature,instead of trying to gently influence it, understand and respect it.

i don't want to offened anyone truly, and especiallly you Rose, and i hope that your horsey is safe, and the little foal. 

Nicole


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## SweetPeasMommie (Aug 12, 2005)

I had friends that raised and bred pit bulls forblood aka fighter dogs. I hate pit bulls of any kind because of it.Back when pit bulls were founded it was never like that. They used tobe good mans best friend now they kill. I would call the police aboutit weather it prevents cyoties or not. I would be scared for me, myfamily, pets and all. 

I hope Izzy will be ok.


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## Jenniblu (Aug 12, 2005)

*Spiced77 wrote:*


> *I dont think it's the 'taste of blood' that gets ananimal going and keep going. it's the fact that they are a predatoryanimal.* I've talked to a few people that have terrierdogs, and are as sweet as can be..and then one day it gets theopportunity and attacks a small animal, such as a mouse or gopher andthe owner just cant understand what happened to their sweet lovingpet. but that's what they're supposed to do. somecan be 'tamed' etc.. and some dogs can be put in their placeby a sufficiently dominant owner that can show them what their packstatus is. unfortunatly a small baby animal isgoing to appear as prey. I'm not saying that you can never trust dogsor anything, we've had several in our family that are very loving,protective, even friends with the cats! but outside their home/denenvironment, without their alphas..i think they'll do what theywant/feel.
> 
> as for pit bulls.. well.. most dog breeds have a personality to them.and sometimes it takes a special owner to be able to control them andteach them.some really need an alpha owner that isnt afraidto show them their place.


This is it exactly. i have feed my last 2 dogs a BARF (bonesand raw food) diet and it did not turn them into killers. Ifa dog (or any predatory animal) develops a skill and a desire to kill,then that is what is dangerous.


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## SweetPeasMommie (Aug 12, 2005)

What I believe is when they actually taste bloodto an animal that they went to kill for or forced to fight for. I havegiven my dogs raw bones from meats and all. Nothing happens.


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## bluebird (Aug 12, 2005)

I have owned many different breeds of dogs fromchihuahua to border collie.The beagles we have had loved to chaserabbits but they never harmed them.Our jack russell loves to killlittle animals it is what they were bred for.our chihuahua chases thechickens but she never hurts them.A pack of dogs is a dangerous thing,i have seen many peoples dogs running deer chasing them down andkilling them.the owners always insist there sweet angel would neverharm a fly.My uncle has a sheep farm and dogs love to harass sheep.Myhorses try to kick the stuffing out of our jack russell.They should geta gaurd donkey.bluebird


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## rabbitgirl (Aug 12, 2005)

*bluebird wrote: *


> They should get a gaurd donkey.bluebird




Seriously brilliant!!!! What a good idea!! Does it work?

Rose


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## rabbitgirl (Aug 12, 2005)

*Nicky Snow wrote: *


> We are so quick to killa dog, to try to control nature,instead of trying to gently influence it, understand and respect it.
> 
> i don't want to offened anyone truly, and especiallly you Rose, and i hope that your horsey is safe, and the little foal.
> 
> Nicole




Not to worry, Nicole. I always like to see both sides of the question.I know Destry can kick the stuffin' out of anything living,and I think the baby will be ok too. She's really strong andwell-grown, and no infection.

It's just that I wouldn't trust the pack around the animals after twomajor incidents. I'm not sure what they will do but I think thedogswill be parceled out separately, not killed. 

Rose


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## m.e. (Aug 13, 2005)

*Nicky Snow wrote:*


> as a dog owner all my life, i do believe that no animal keptas a petshould be fed raw meat. there is a natual food chainin the wild, and to domesticate an animal, it needs to curb it'snatural instincts somewhat, and that includes deterring theanimal from the taste of raw meat/blood.


That's just silly Raw food is probably one of thehealthiest things you could feed a dog (or cat), and to suggest thatgnawing on a beef knucklebone or a chicken neck is going to make my petwant to take down some livestock, it's nonsense.

Though, it does keep those sharp teeth nice and pearly white

Rose, it sounds like a tough situation, and you have to do whatever isnecessary to protect your animals. Dogs on their own can be dangerous,dogs in packs are much bolder, and often deadly.


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## dajeti2 (Aug 13, 2005)

When people found out that Bunny killed one of my chickens they all said I should have her put down.

I won't do that but at the same time I know that I will have tobe extra vigilant that she is never allowed anywhere near a smallanimal. She still lunges for the chickens every time I take her out.She's gone after Noah our Mini Dachshund and I know she sees my rabbitsas a meal.

So I do think that if allowed to hunt and or kill an animalthey will do it again. I've seen it too many times. But putting them tosleep isn't always the answer. I think if someone is well informedahead of adopting one of the 'killer' dogs that they can't be aroundsmall animals or children or whatever it is they have a problemwith.

There are also times when euthanasia is the only option. As Ichild our neighborhood was terrorized by a pack of dogs that killedeverything they could. They eventually attacked a small child and hermother. Thankfully they were both ok in the end but thedogs were put down.

It's a hard a hard call to make when a dog kills or attacks animals.

Tina


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## cirrustwi (Aug 13, 2005)

I don't think I necessarily phrased it right...Iagree with everyone that once a dog or any animal learns that it cankill, it will do it again. Unfortunately the prey drive isjust stronger in some animals.

I won't go into putting down or not putting down after this sort ofthing. It's something I'm really conflicted about.I tend to feel that most of these incidents happen at a large fault ofthe owner, for various reasons, and then I'm not really sure we shouldpunish the animal for the human's irresponsibility.

Jen


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## ruka (Aug 13, 2005)

I think that is a bunch of BS. Dogs, wild ordomesticated attack when they are being threatened. Unlike humans,animals attack when they think they must defend themselves. Here inHawaii, pit bulls are very popular and most people understand the risksof having one and being near one. It's unfortunate people relate to pitbulls as evil dogs because most of them are not. Any dog can snap. Pitbulls are just more territorial than others. Also, it is the owner'sresponsibility on how they raise their dog. 

The dogs probably attacked the baby horse because it was in "theirarea." It's most likely that one of the dogs had a problem with her andthe other four decided to join in to help out. And as for the girl whogot attacked, she probably got too close and didn't know the warningsigns. And this goes out to everyone: if a dog is growling or snarlingat you, don't go near it or touch it. I have heard way too many storiesof people who get bit or attacked by dogs because they don't know thewarning signs or choose to ignore them.

Sorry, I'm all heated about this. I'm more of a dog person (but tryingto learn as much as rabbits) but it really upsets me when peopleassociate dogs with negativity.

I really hope your horse gains back her strength and health.


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##  (Aug 13, 2005)

*ruka wrote: *


> Ithink that is a bunch of BS. Dogs, wild or domesticated attack whenthey are being threatened. Unlike humans, animals attack when theythink they must defend themselves. Here in Hawaii, pit bulls are verypopular and most people understand the risks of having one and beingnear one. It's unfortunate people relate to pit bulls as evil dogsbecause most of them are not. Any dog can snap. Pit bulls are just moreterritorial than others. Also, it is the owner's responsibility on howthey raise their dog.
> 
> The dogs probably attacked the baby horse because it was in "theirarea." It's most likely that one of the dogs had a problem with her andthe other four decided to join in to help out. And as for the girl whogot attacked, she probably got too close and didn't know the warningsigns. And this goes out to everyone: if a dog is growling or snarlingat you, don't go near it or touch it. I have heard way too many storiesof people who get bit or attacked by dogs because they don't know thewarning signs or choose to ignore them.
> 
> ...


Ruka : think about this for a moment, What about the ones who attackunprevoked? What about the oneswho attack with NO warning signs ? What about theones who attack forno reason other than becasuethey want to ? 

ALL Animals regardless of the Specieswill attack unprevoked , for no apparent reason, with very little if anywarning signs , those animals aredangerous and being an Animalperson wont save anyonefrom such an attack. 

I agree with the Fact itis mostly in the Upbrining ofany animal as to how they react . EXCEPT!With the fact that animals bredfor certain looks , temperment , certainbody styles and head shapes. Perfect examples pit bulls, dobermans, any tye of Mini ortoy animal . any animal witha dwarfing gene is subjectto brain injuries due to the factthat the brain grows andthe skull doesnt .


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## seniorcats (Aug 13, 2005)

Think about this - a group of untrained,unsupervised, unneutered male dogs allowed to roam and to exhibitaggression as guard dogs - the dog pack mentality is a lot like a mobmentality. And yes, they will attack unprovoked.Simply go to google and search under the terms fatal dog pack attacksand read what comes up. 

Ultimately the human owners are responsible for not neutering, nottraining and not properly caring for their dogs. If thosedogs are allowed to continue as they are, they will continue to attackand kill.


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## rabbitgirl (Aug 13, 2005)

*gypsy wrote:*


> any animal with adwarfing gene is subject tobrain injuries due to the fact thatthe brain grows and theskull doesnt .





Except thatmany animals with the dwarfing gene have*bigger* heads in proportion to their bodies. Like, specifically,Holland lops. Izzy's head is bigger than Bub's and she weighs half ofwhat he does. She also has half the brainpower--I love Pam'sdescription "dumb as rocks"......and then I thought there was someproblem with collie dogs because they were bred for narrow heads andthere were some brain problems.

And what about people who are dwarfs because of genetics? There aren'tmany true midgets anymore because of growth hormones (hey, but I'mpretty close myself)--but they have proportionally smallerheadsand normal intelligence in most cases.

Hmmmm, a conundrum.....I love conundrums....

Rose


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## rabbitgirl (Aug 13, 2005)

*seniorcats wrote:*


> Think about this - a group of untrained, unsupervised,unneutered male dogs allowed to roam and to exhibit aggression as guarddogs - the dog pack mentality is a lot like a mob mentality.And yes, they will attack unprovoked. Simply go to google andsearch under the terms fatal dog pack attacks and read what comesup.
> 
> Ultimately the human owners are responsible for not neutering, nottraining and not properly caring for their dogs. If thosedogs are allowed to continue as they are, they will continue to attackand kill.




Sad but true. They are not my dogs, so the decision is not mine tomake--I asked more from a desire to know than an actual ability to doanything about them. I don't know the best way to resolve thesituation, but it is my opinion that something will have to changebecause they have several mares that will be foaling in the future.

Oh, and Ruka,btw it wasn't my horse that was injured, it wasone of the owner's. Mine beats the stuffing out of the dogs. I wouldn'twant to be on the wrong end of those teeth--he can take care ofhimself, certainly.

Rose


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## cirrustwi (Aug 14, 2005)

*gypsy wrote:*


> EXCEPT! With the fact thatanimals bred for certain looks , temperament, certain body stylesand head shapes . Perfectexamples pit bulls, dobermans , any tyeof Mini or toy animal. any animal with adwarfing gene is subject tobrain injuries due to the fact thatthe brain grows and theskull doesnt .



I have to say that I have 2 of these types of dogs. I have alab/rottie mix who looks like an all black rottie. Becausepeople stereo-type that dogs with that look will be mean or aggressive,I've had several people who are afraid of him. In reality,he's the biggest baby. He's completely undermined by myyorkie. He plays really nicely with my rabbits andferrets. He's got a typical rottie personality, it's justthat most people don't know what a typical rottie is. I alsohave a yorkie, and as much as he rules my house, he's not the slightestbit aggressive. He's protective and I feel that if someonewere trying to hurt me, they would have way more to fear from him thenthe lab/rottie, but he's also meek and mild. He also playswith my critters and loves absolutely everyone. 

Also, genetically, most small breed dogs have extra fontanels because their brain grows faster then their skull. 

I've had experience with a lot of the dogs that most people think arenasty and only once did I have a bad one and it was years ago with adobie. It's really the owner's responsibility to research thebreed and know how to properly handle it in order to keep what could bean aggressive temperament in check. Unfortunately, there aresome owners who do not do that, these are the dogs that everyone hearsabout, therefore giving the whole breed a bad name. (Sorry,those owners infuriate me!!! )

Jen


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