# Fish Help??



## Bunnylova4eva (Nov 30, 2011)

So as you may know I got some mollies several weeks ago. Saturday one died after a couple days of being lethergic, not eating etc. When we went back in petco they tested the water and the Nitrates were up. I changed 2 gallons of the water (of the 10 gallon tank) but now ( as of today)my other two are both acting weird, the one being especially lethargic, hiding, not eating. 

Anyone know what could be causing this?

Thanks a bunch!


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## Jynxie (Nov 30, 2011)

Well the nitrates being up would do it, the question is why they're high. Did you leave the dead mollie in the water long?

Also how long did you run your tank before adding fish and do you have all the test liquids?

With mollies... I believe you can add a bit of salt - but I'd double check first, but I do believe they enjoy some aquarium salt in their water.


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## Bunnylova4eva (Nov 30, 2011)

Fish tank was going for maybe like a week first. Then I got the first, waited a week, got another, waited a week, the second was aggressive, so after several days I returned it and got 2 more.

No, I didn't leave the dead one in there long. (long being?) it seemed to be dyeing for a day or so but I kept a close eye and when it had died, scooped it out.
I think it was just going on a month since getting any fish in the All new tank.

I'll add a bit of salt. When I originally set it up, I put the aquarium salt in, but since water changes haven't added any. 

Adorable avatar by the way!  I loveee it!


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## mybunnyau (Nov 30, 2011)

A fish tank can take several weeks to cycle properly. Being a newly established tank it is quite normal for the nitrates to be high. When the normal bacteria begin to grow and work on the water chemistry you should see these readings fall. 

When it comes to water changes, I read you only changed 2gal of a 10gal tank. Don't ever be fooled into thinking you need to change more than that. Many people tend to change too much water and then the cycle only has to start all over again. And don't replace or clean the filter on the same day you do your water change. Need to leave some goodness in there to build up and maintain the water quality.


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## MagPie (Nov 30, 2011)

Yeah it cycles in about a month or so and Mollies aren't really a good fish to cycle a tank with.

Keep the tank lightly stocked while it is cycling and then slowly add more fish. 10s can be a little tricky since they are small. I've got a 10 going with 3 pencil fish, haven't wanted to push my luck and add more since the first go around the tank crashed. My fault, I should have known better.


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## shawnwk1 (Nov 30, 2011)

do you not have a quarenteen (sp?) tank set up? if not you might seriously think about doing so as they are very important and needed to immediately get sick fish out of your community tank. even if you didn't leave the dead one in there long you still left him in there sick which could have easily made the others sick.


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## MiniLopHop (Dec 1, 2011)

You said that Petco tested the water for you, does that mean you don't have a test kit at home? I would highly recomend the basic liquid test kit for fresh water, it will last several years and give you a great insight into your tank. During the first month you probably want to test your water every other day so you can change water if the Nitrates get too high. 

Also, adding Stresszyme helps cycle the tank faster by adding good bacteria. Even after the tank is established I use it during water changes to help prevent sludge build up in the rocks.

Do you have any live plants in the tank? That is very helpful because it uses the excess nutrients and helps add oxygen to the water. The roots dig through the gravel and help prevent bad bacteria from building. Plus, it gives the fish places to hide and rest so they are less stressed. I think my fish have brighter colors and live longer living in a tank with live plants. I recommend anubus as a hardy, low light plant. I still have my original from when I started with fish well over 10 years ago. They grow slowly, but they are very sturdy. Be sure if you are buying plants they are true aquatic species and not submerged terrestrials, they will just end up rotting under water.


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## Bunnylova4eva (Dec 1, 2011)

no, I haven't gotten the test kit (yes, I know, silly of me) some have recomended it others say I didn't need it. I had fish that were fine for about 3-4 years so I assumed it was fine..till they got ick and died, and I started from scratch on a new tank. Guess I'll add a test kit to my list of things to go get.

As to live plants, I don't have any of those either. Just a few fake ones. I've thought of it-last time I was in there I looked at them but didn't know which was better to get. 

I added a bit of aquarium salt this morning. Who knows if it'll do anything, but maybe it'll help the fish a bit. The one fish seems mostly fine (besides not eating *as* much) but the other just hides now and hardly comes out. He'll go (rarely) to eat a little and then just spit it out.


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## MiniLopHop (Dec 1, 2011)

Ick tends to happen in high nitrogen tanks because the fish are stressed, so their immune systems are compromised. Now that my tank has been cycled and running for a few years I only test a couple times a year, just to make sure everything is ok. I have a 20 gallon and take two bucket fulls out each week (about 2-3 gallons). By frequent, small water changes the quality is better and less stressful on the fish than infrequent, large changes.

You want to get the liquid tests because they are much more accurate than the test strips. The test strips are basically a waste of money because after they are opened the humidity in the air screws up the chemicals on the strips. The answers you get from strips also varies a lot, to the point that it really doesn't tell you anything. The kit that gives you all the basic tests you need has really good directions to make it easy to test.

A bit of aquarium salt is good for mollies.


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## Bluesmaven (Dec 1, 2011)

Plants are the answer I think, they almost act like a filter themselves they take in the bad stuff from the water and put out good stuff the same way they do on land. Plus with Mollies the plants give protection for fry.


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## Bunnylova4eva (Dec 1, 2011)

*Bluesmaven wrote: *


> Plants are the answer I think, they almost act like a filter themselves they take in the bad stuff from the water and put out good stuff the same way they do on land. Plus with Mollies the plants give protection for fry.



...unless you only have male mollies in the tank. lol I didn't want to end up with a gajillion little fish that I didn't know what to do with.

As far as plants do go though, I thinkdo that. What kind(s) are good?


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## MiniLopHop (Dec 1, 2011)

couple good links:

http://www.liveaquaria.com/PIC/article.cfm?aid=291

http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/prod/234083/product.web

http://www.aquariumplants.com/category_s/175.htm

If you have standard lighting that comes with a fish tank you have low light. I highly recomend "flourish excel" to help your plants, just make sure you dose by directions so you don't kill your fish.

http://www.aquariumplants.com/SeaChem_Flourish_Excel_500_ML_p/sc04530.htm


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## Bunnylova4eva (Dec 1, 2011)

well all today he's been like this when he does come out(and last night) I don't know why he thinks the thermometer is so great...? :


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## Nancy McClelland (Dec 1, 2011)

When you add water, did you also ad something to neutralize chlorine/chloramine? The city changed the chemicals in the water and didn't notify the public for a month--I lost all of my Betas.


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## Bunnylova4eva (Dec 1, 2011)

Yep, I did that (always do). 
I'm just kind of stumped as the what the issue could be..and how to tell. Maybe I do need to go get a test kit. I don't know if I'll get there today, but would like to figure out what's going on with them before they both die. :/ He's still hanging out on/next to the thermometer. that's all he does or hide in the tunnel.


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## MiniLopHop (Dec 1, 2011)

It is hard to tell from the picture, but do you have aeration in the tank? They may tell you that the water filter is enough, but in my experience it is not. He may be hanging toward the top because it have more disolved O2.


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## Bunnylova4eva (Dec 1, 2011)

I have just a filter in there. I'll add an air stone or something. I think i have an extra aerator.
Good thought! Thanks!


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## Bunnylova4eva (Dec 1, 2011)

any other ideas anyone? I put the aerator/airstone in there and at first they were swmming all around and now the one that wasn't doing to well is just back to hanging out by the thermometer. poor lil' fishy


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## MiniLopHop (Dec 1, 2011)

Is the water temperature in their normal range? I'm really reaching here. Poor fishy


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## Watermelons (Dec 1, 2011)

Most large pet stores will test your water for free as often as you want. Save your money.
May not be anything wrong with your tank or the water. Might just be the fish.


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## Bunnylova4eva (Dec 1, 2011)

*MiniLopHop wrote: *


> Is the water temperature in their normal range? I'm really reaching here. Poor fishy



72 I think about when the light's off.



Maybe it is the fish-just kinda coincidental that all three different molly colors are acting strange. ?


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## Watermelons (Dec 2, 2011)

Types of fish we get returned the most at work... Mollys, Plattys, and Guppys.
I personally HATE livebearing fish, more or less for these reasons, their just irritating fish to keep when it comes down to stuff like this.

Stick to something easy like Zebra Danios and maybe a little cory cat for the bottom.


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## Bunnylova4eva (Dec 2, 2011)

*Watermelons wrote: *


> Types of fish we get returned the most at work... Mollys, Plattys, and Guppys.
> I personally HATE livebearing fish, more or less for these reasons, their just irritating fish to keep when it comes down to stuff like this.
> 
> Stick to something easy like Zebra Danios and maybe a little cory cat for the bottom.



yeahhh, I'm getting that idea..the last 2 times I got guppies they didn't make it. My gourami's have done great, tetras, and man, the tiger barbs were like everlasting fish. The betta did pretty well too.

Are the Ghost catfish hardy or no? Just curious; I love those but haven't ever had any.


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## MiniLopHop (Dec 2, 2011)

You have problems with guppies? I couldn't kill mine if I tried. I had both male and female and have given away well over 1,000 fish in the last year. At one point I couldn't keep the tank clean even with frequent water changes because there were so many fish. Not one death. I couldn't even get the moms to eat the babies (I have no idea why people worry about that). I ended up giving away all the females so I wouldn't have such a population issue.

Crazy fast reproduction, yes. Hardiness issues, no way.

Then again, I normally don't have any issue with neons. I got 5 on "black friday" sale at the pet store. Should have saved my money. I only have one left alive. I have tested my water and everything is fine. I think they were harassed too much with all the netting that day and the stress killed them


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## Watermelons (Dec 2, 2011)

Ghost catfish are creepy 
But they like to be kept in large schools with lots of open swimming room, their quite active so.... Plus their not much of a good bottom feeder like Cory Catfish.
Nobody seems to buy them so I cant tell you how they do in other aquariums, but I dont have to scoop out dead ones all the time so their around average.


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## MiniLopHop (Dec 2, 2011)

How many cory catfish do you need in a school to keep them happy? Do they like heavily planted tanks?

Sorry for hijacking the thread a bit.


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## Watermelons (Dec 2, 2011)

Cory Catfish dont really need a school. However some really wimpy ones may appreciate having a buddy. 
Ghost Catfish however do like schools and do best in groups of 4 or more.
Both species I think prefers a more open tank... Ghosts so they can swim.. they are really active from what I've seen. And Corys so they can get at all the food thats sunk to the bottom of the tank.


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## MiniLopHop (Dec 2, 2011)

Any suggestions for a 20 gal, well planted tank? I have 5 male guppies, 1 tetra, and undetermined cherry red shrimp. I see them occasionally, so I know some of them are in there. I am thinking of just filling out the tetra school since all his friends died. I am going to test the water again and have them test it too incase my kit suddenly went wonky.


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## Watermelons (Dec 2, 2011)

I would just get more tetras. Finish the school at 6 + or something. You could toss in 3-4 or so danios as well if you wanted. 
I know shrimp really appreciate plants, but they also appreciate salt which the plants dont like. 
But get them from a store that has a good fish guarantee lol
with a 20g you could get something like a Twig catfish. 1-2 Dwarf gourami, another catfish I cant remember the name of.... Lol lots to choose from.

Heres my fishie, Dont make fun of how the plants are... I have 0 ability to decorate or style anything.


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## MiniLopHop (Dec 2, 2011)

Your beta is beautiful!

This was my tank when I first set it up. I need newer pictures because the plants have grown a lot.


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## MiniLopHop (Dec 2, 2011)

oh, and I do add salt. I just get tough plants


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## Watermelons (Dec 2, 2011)

Yeah I can see that, most people dont pick plants based on how tough they are they just like whats pretty 

I dont have much room for too many kinds in my tank, its only 5G I wouldnt mind a sword or 2 in there, or some of that angels tears. I had to rip everything out and re-do it all just so I could make room for the heater. Just waiting for some nicer looking Java ferns and sword plants to come into work. Donated all the Scarlet Temple to the other fish tank here.

You could always get ghost shrimp or rock shrimp (those are creppppy)


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## MiniLopHop (Dec 2, 2011)

They would eat my cherry shrimp  full grown thoes little guys barely make an inch if they stretch way out. They are pretty wussy, but with all the plant cover they do well.

If you were closer I would give you a 10 gallon I have sitting empty at the moment. I think I'm going to donate it to my vet that rescues animals. It would be a passible hamster house in a pinch.


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## Watermelons (Dec 2, 2011)

The Rock shrimp actually do really well with the ghost shrimp at work. Their supposed to be in seperate tanks, but the ghost shrimp just go under. beside, through... *sigh*
What about Twig catfish they just leave everyone alone, i can litterly stick my hand in the tank and pick them up... thats actually the only way I catch them for people since they dont fit in our nets!!


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## Bunnylova4eva (Dec 2, 2011)

So I found the black molly I have had died. =P poor lil' buddy. SO heading back to the pet store with him today. We'll see what I end up with. last week they tested the water and all was good except nitrates being up (following i changes 2 gallons like I said) sooo, I don't know if I'm getting more right away or not. I'd hate to lose *more*

As to guppies, I don't know. I'd heard lots of people say their guppies were good. Mine all died in the first 3 days that i got them (however I got them all at the same time in a new tank when I didn't know better and hadn't had many fish..). 

I don't know that I would want ghost catfish anyway-they just looked kind of cool~I hadn't really seen them before. I agree about the creepyness factor lol


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## Watermelons (Dec 2, 2011)

Id go for normal Zebra danios, their cheap hearty little fish. You can litterly dunk them in bleach and theyd be just fine.... But dont do that.... lol


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## MiniLopHop (Dec 2, 2011)

there are also long finned zebras (I had them and they lasted years) and the neon ones if you want crazy looking fish


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## Watermelons (Dec 2, 2011)

Ahh Glo-fish.... Love them... However their really hard to find in Canada land with the whole... glowy stuff being illegal to pass the border and what not lol. Occasionally you can find the pink ones up here, i remember stocking the tank at the vets with pink glo-fish.


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## MiniLopHop (Dec 2, 2011)

Are all genetically modified animals illegal there? I think it is cool that they started out for research but were so cool they are for sale all over here.


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## Watermelons (Dec 2, 2011)

No their not illegal to own or anything, just something about the flourescent gene and crossing the border.... Like the glow in the dark mice. Same deal.
I love going down to Petco and looking at the glofish. At the same time, I'm happy with my single betta.


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## MiniLopHop (Dec 2, 2011)

THERE ARE GLOW IN THE DARK MICE!?!?!?!?!?!?! I GOTTZ TO HAVE!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## MiniLopHop (Dec 2, 2011)

Darn, not approved by the FDA yet so not for sale


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## Bunnylova4eva (Dec 2, 2011)

*MiniLopHop wrote: *


> THERE ARE GLOW IN THE DARK MICE!?!?!?!?!?!?! I GOTTZ TO HAVE!!!!!!!!!!!!



haha  Glowmice=awesome I'll get one once I can. lol jkActually I don't know. just found thatfunny.:biggrin2:

As for fish, my tank is about 73 degrees. At night our house temp goes to like 67 for several hours and then the heat kicks on again and all early morning-day is in the 70's. It takes all night to get down to 67 though and the heat turns on by 5:30 or 6:00. Could this still eb somehow affectingthem?My other fish have been fine but maybe mollies are more sensitive?


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## Watermelons (Dec 3, 2011)

6 degrees ferenheight or whatever its spelt isnt a huge difference. Do you not use a heater? Might be a good idea to pick one up.


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## Bunnylova4eva (Dec 3, 2011)

no I don't currently have one~that's what i was thinking. How much do they usuall run in cost?


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## Watermelons (Dec 3, 2011)

a heater can run anywhere from $15-$100 depending on the brand, type, and size. You get what you pay for when it comes to heaters. 
Stay away from Aqueon heaters... they just dont work and have so many issues.
Fluval is a good brand, i just picked up a 50w one for $18 as it was on sale 50% off.
Top Finn is ugly, its the petsmart house brand. Elite isn't too exciting nothing special there.

You need 5watts per gallon of water. Dont get one thats pre-set. make sure its large enough for your tank and that it has a temperature control knob.


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## Bunnylova4eva (Dec 5, 2011)

ok, I'll look next time I'm in there. They said to wait a bit and see what happens with my one last fish before i add more. They couldn't find anything in the water, but since they did keep dying why add more just to lose them. So we'll see. If nothing happens with this guy how long should i wait? He's really a social little fish, and I feel bad leaving him alone too long. (Not to mention I'd just like to get some more)


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## MagPie (Dec 13, 2011)

Glo-fish? Do you mean those fish they inject with dye?


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## lilylop (Dec 13, 2011)

*Bunnylova4eva wrote: *


> So as you may know I got some mollies several weeks ago. Saturday one died after a couple days of being lethergic, not eating etc. When we went back in petco they tested the water and the Nitrates were up. I changed 2 gallons of the water (of the 10 gallon tank) but now ( as of today)my other two are both acting weird, the one being especially lethargic, hiding, not eating.
> 
> Anyone know what could be causing this?
> 
> Thanks a bunch!



Ok I have had a quick read of your thread and by the looks of it the tank wasn't cycled correctly. It can take up to 6 weeks for it to cycle properly. If you google nitrogen cycle you will see how it is all done. Some people use ammonia some people use a raw prawn to kick start it.

I seriously don't think that is the only problem that you have :expressionlessI think your fish may have hexitima HEX for short or some other sort of illness. With all of them hiding and then dying like that or it could be worms of some sort. They are both easy to catch illnesses but also both curable if caught in time. 

To be honest ( I'm not trying to be rude here) I would put the little fishy to sleep he is only suffereing and I highly doubt that he will get any better. If you need some help with how to do it humanly PM me I am more than willing to help.

Once he is gone either by you hand or the choice of god. I would strip down the tank and start again. Making sure you don't add any fish for a minimum of 6 weeks and buy yourself a test kit. So that way you know exactly when it is cycled and if you have any problemsthe results they are not "just fine" cos that is what the guy at the shop said.

I am the Co-Admin of a forum. Here is the link;

www.fish-finatics.com

Feel free to join up we are a bunch of friendly bunch of people


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## Sweetie (Dec 14, 2011)

Do you have fish medicine? You need to get:

Cure-ick
Anti-fungus
Anti-bacteria

These are real good to have on hand in case your fish get sick, you can dose the tank accordingly.

I have clown loaches in my 55 gallon tank and I have to half dose the tank with these medicines, whichever one I use for whatever the fish have, because it can kill them if I full dose the tank. The medicine is APPLUS+

I also have three gold fish and two plecostamuses in the 55 gallon tank and they all get along. 

In the 10 gallon I just have my doubletail betta and black skirt fish.

I also have a 1-2.5 gallon fish tank which is holding my halfmoon betta.

I would like to add that some fish cannot be separated from their tankmates because they can die from loneliness. Clown loaches are a perfect example of this.


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## Bunnylova4eva (Dec 15, 2011)

Thanks for the replies.

As of yesterday I've noticed my one remaining molly just hiding and all today just hovering at the top of the tank. Maybe I need to do another water change? The manager of our pet store said whenever he sees something funky in teh way they're acting he does a water change (minimal percentage). I changed some of the water about 2-3 weeks back at most. I highly doubt it needs to be done again already, but I guess its time to test the water again. The fish isn't eating either. This is exactly what all the others did before *they* died. =P I'm stumped. 





Note: edited due to a typo


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## lilylop (Dec 15, 2011)

You need to do WEEKLY water changes!! That may be the problem there. Sorry don't mean to be rude but you haven't listened to a thing I have said


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## Bunnylova4eva (Dec 15, 2011)

*lilylop wrote: *


> You need to do WEEKLY water changes!! That may be the problem there. Sorry don't mean to be rude but you haven't listened to a thing I have said



I did hear what you said, I'm just a little hesitant about the putting him to sleep part. :confused2: I know that may be the kinder thing to do, but I'm not sure if I need to at this point.

Weekly? I've never heard that. I suppose I can do another water change then today. Maybe that will help. Everyone else tells me to do monthly. Too much confusing stuff.


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## Watermelons (Dec 15, 2011)

*lilylop wrote: *


> You need to do WEEKLY water changes!! That may be the problem there. Sorry don't mean to be rude but you haven't listened to a thing I have said


Now that seemed a little rude.

She is doing what she can with the fish. There are a few things with what you posted that are incorrect especially the no fish for 6 weeks. No tank will cycle properly until at least 1 fish is added which needs to happen in the first few days of the tanks life. "Forum Admin" or not.

But yes Mia, you do need to do weekly water changes.

And Emily - GloFish are NOT injected with dye, they physically have the genetics that make then fluoresce.


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## MiniLopHop (Dec 15, 2011)

I agree with the weekly, particularly when you are cycling. Have you read up on the amonia/nitrogen cycling in a new tank? It makes things so much more clear when you understand what is going on chemically. That is also why I suggested getting your own test kit, then you can test every day if you want at first to see what is going on. You will first see your amonia spike (it is critical to change water if you see it getting too high). Then the amonia will go down and the nitrate (or is it nitrite? I get them confused) will go up. Again, keep an eye on how high the levels get and change water as needed. Then the nitrate will go down and nitrite will go up (or the other way around). This is the final product of metabolic waste breakdown and can ONLY be removed via water changes.

There are a few things that can help make the cycle go more quickly. Add stress zyme by API, or other liquid bacteria. It helps populate your tank with the good bacteria. Even in an established tank I add it with water changes to prevent sludge build up in the rocks.

Live plants. They will use up the nitrogen compounds. They basically feed off of fish poo. It helps keep the levels at 0, which is what you want in a fully cycled tank. You still need to do partial water changes for the final nitrogen product though because the plants can't use that.

Only add one fish at a time. I know it seems painfully slow, but it is the only way to avoid huge spikes. I would add a fish, watch the cycle go through the changes, then add perhaps two more fish. You need to test at least every other, if not every day when you are cycling. That is the only way you know when you need water changes. In the first couple months you will be changing lots of water. The smaller the tank the more water changes you will always have. That's why I prefer my larger tank and gave away my 10 gallon, it's actually less matenance.


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## Bunnylova4eva (Dec 15, 2011)

Ok thank you so much-I'm sure this is the problem. I just set out 1 1/2 gallons of water to change into it. Is that enough to change for a 10 gallon? (with decor it holds only maybe 8-9) gallons.

Also, I'll add bacteria starter-I'd added some innitially but not any since and not the full dose to begin with.

Thanks-I'll let you know what happens!  I'm so thankful someone can help me figure out what's going on!


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## MiniLopHop (Dec 15, 2011)

Do you not use a dechlorinator? The one I use has additional benefits besides getting rid of chlorine, it also helps the condition of the fish's slime layer. A lot of communities are starting to use other water treatment other than chlorine as well. Our tap water registers ammonia levels because of the chemical, but after I use the dechlor it is back to 0 ppm ammonia.

This is what I use as a dechlor:
http://aquariumpharm.com/Products/Product.aspx?ProductID=43

This is for the stress zyme
http://aquariumpharm.com/Products/Product.aspx?ProductID=44

This is the test kit
http://aquariumpharm.com/Products/Product.aspx?ProductID=67

plant food
http://aquariumpharm.com/Products/Product.aspx?ProductID=55

I use Melafix when adding new fish to prevent issues. It is also great at treating a lot of the common malidies without needing to use antibiotics, if you catch it fast. 
http://aquariumpharm.com/Products/Product.aspx?ProductID=56

I use the flourish excel as a carbon source for the plants, be careful to dose per instructions so you don't make your fish suffocate.
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/FlourishExcel.html

General aquarium conditioning salt.

That rounds up all the chemicals I use for my tank. I just keep them in the aquarium specific bucket with my dedicated scrub pad, water siphon, and net.

You should be able to get all of this at your local shop other than possibly the flourish excel. They even have a start up pack of small bottles of the stress coat and stress zyme if you are worried about costs.

One last link:
http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/index.web

This is where I get the flourish excel and live plants. I can drive to them, but they also ship. I'm not sure where you are, but they are in Lancaster, PA. It is such a wonderful store! They even have an in store Flemish Giant named Princess Anna, she's obviously not for sale.


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## Bunnylova4eva (Dec 15, 2011)

Yes, I use a Top Fin Water Conditioner. Its supposed to treat the tap water- is this the right thing? That's what I've always used with our fish tanks (I used to have several going and now am limited down).

Thanks for the links-I'll go check them out!
How much water is good to change for this week?


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## lilylop (Dec 15, 2011)

Watermelons wrote:


> *lilylop wrote: *
> 
> 
> > You need to do WEEKLY water changes!! That may be the problem there. Sorry don't mean to be rude but you haven't listened to a thing I have said
> ...



Sorry if I came off rude but I am trying to be direct to ensure that no more fish have to go through pain again.

You might want to look up fishless cycling it can be done. :big wink:


MiniLopHop is on the right track they are all great products! oh and yes weekly water changes normally you want to to about 25% per week but that depends on how heavy you have your tank stocked. I should also say that I have been keeping fish for 15 years so I do have a little bit of experience.


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## MiniLopHop (Dec 15, 2011)

Top Fin is ok. I like the API brand better because it does more than just remove the chlorine.

The water changes depend on what your numbers are. Can you do a test and post the ammonia, nitrate, and nitrite levels?


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## Watermelons (Dec 15, 2011)

Top fin takes out chlorine chloramine heavy metals, etc etc. Dont need to spend the extra money for a brand name water conditioner if you dont have too. Save that money for the other stuff  Top Fin is just Petsmarts house brand so they product TONS of the stuff so they can sell it WAY cheaper. Now there are alot of products out there that are designed to remove ammonia or treat this or that, that also act as water conditioners. Really you just need something that removes the bad stuff and helps "protect" your fishies. Which they all do. Haven't seen a single "water conditioner" on a pet store shelf around here that doesnt take out Chlorine, chloramine, heavy metals, protects, etc....


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## Sweetie (Dec 15, 2011)

Remember to get the fish medicine that I have mentioned, so you have it on hand when/if your fish get sick.


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## MiniLopHop (Dec 15, 2011)

Good to know they all work basically the same. The fish store I went to sold mostly API when I got started so I have stuck with the same things. I figure if it isn't broke then don't fix it.


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## NickZac (Dec 15, 2011)

Jynxie wrote:


> With mollies... I believe you can add a bit of salt - but I'd double check first, but I do believe they enjoy some aquarium salt in their water.



This is correct.




Bunnylova4eva wrote:


> well all today he's been like this when he does come out(and last night) I don't know why he thinks the thermometer is so great...? :



You do not have enough gravel in their unless it is just the pic. For a 10 gal, you want 15 pounds of gravel. The problem with a 10 gallon, or even a 20 gallon, is that they are so small that they become prone to water parameter fluctuations that are often enough to cause disease and/or kill the fish outright. If the filter is a Top Fin with carbon cartridges, it is worth noting that: 1) carbon removes any added medication almost immediately and also removes any trace elements that are beneficial to the fish, and 2) that particular filter is a weak model in that it only provides mechanical and chemical filtration, where as other hang-on-the-back models, such as the AquaClear, provides biological filtration as well. Biological filtration is a billion times more important than the other two.





Nancy McClelland wrote:


> When you add water, did you also ad something to neutralize chlorine/chloramine? The city changed the chemicals in the water and didn't notify the public for a month--I lost all of my Betas.



When I first started I made this same mistake. It is worth outright noting for others that while letting water sit or heavy aeration neutralizes chlorine, it will not break the chloramine bond. Furthermore, not all dechlorinators will break this bond either and so the chemical needs to explicitly say 'neutralizes chlorine AND chloramine'. Many cities will change up chemicals to 'shock' pathogens, often without public notice. Most (but not all) modern dechlorinators wil break the chloramine bond.





Watermelons wrote:


> Most large pet stores will test your water for free as often as you want. Save your money.
> May not be anything wrong with your tank or the water. Might just be the fish.



Generally if something is wrong with the fish, it has to do with, or began with, the water. I would say 98% of ill health starts as stress caused from an issue with water parameters. I would not rely on these stores to do testing as a water test is essentially a blood test for fish. I managed one once for a very short period of time and quit because of the horrific conditions fish were exposed to due to ignorance on behalf of the employees. Later I went to become a published writer on fish health and disease. Most people at those pet stores do not know how to properly test tank water. Furthermore, the equipment they have is often tainted and their disease treatments kill the fish more often than the disease. A $30 Master Test Kit can save you hundreds of dollars of lost fish and endless grief. Every fish owner needs a test kit for the basics at least:
-ammonia
-nitrite
-nitrate
-pH






OP, a lot of things affect fish healthâ¦just a few questions in determining tank/fish health would be:
-What is the temp and temp flux?
-What is the heater set at?
-What are ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate readings? (the numbers)
-What is the pH and water hardness level?
-When was the last time you introduced a new fish?
-Do you use any type of frozen or live food other than pellets/wafers/flakes?
-Do you have the ability to isolate this fish in a sick tank?
-Are you using carbon on your filter?
-Are you feeding a good food like New Life Spectrum PELLETS (not flakes)?

If you have any other fish than mollies, I would not add salt as it can cause long-term organ damage. Its effectiveness as a 'tonic' and 'disease treatment' is minimal at best. As noted, zebra danios are a good way to goâ¦HOWEVER, if the fish that were in your tank died of a disease, then if you add more fish they will likely contract the same thing. Therefore, letting the tank sit while the sick fish heal or, ideally if all fish died, disinfecting it is worthwhile.

There are two types of fish commonly called glow fish. The ones which are danios and glow in the dark are not injected; they are actually known by the brand name GloFish. The ones which are injected are called Glass Fish, but are commonly (incorrectly) called glowfish.

In this particular case, I do think disease may have occurred. They were susceptible to the disease likely because of an extreme temp flux. Even a small flux is enough to stress even hardy fish to the point of contracting an illness. For any tropical fish, a heater is a must.

As far as water changes, as noted you need to do closer to weekly, especially with a smaller tank like a 10 gal. However, with only a few fish, 2-3 weeks should be fine if your water parameters are good. Unless you have live plants, the only way to remove nitrates is via a water change and so 'matured' tanks need to monitor nitrates the closest. Again, this goes back to the importance of having a test kit.

In order to master the art of fishkeeping, it is important to understand beyond the dynamics behind just the fish. Fish keeping is not as much about keeping fish as it is keeping trillions of bacteria that provide a fish the conditions needed to live and thrive. The nitrogen cycle is only part of this complex relationship. An understanding of the biological filter and what constitutes sufficient biological filtration, as well as bio-load thresholds, is critical. Books on fish keeping and fish health are worth there weight in gold, as they provide care and diagnosis guidelines.

Hope this helps.


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## Sweetie (Dec 15, 2011)

Very informative NickZac. How do you know so much about fish?

I have a test kit. There is a way to get the nitrates without doing water changes. There is a bottle of Amquel+ plus, it removes nitrate, nitrite, ammonia, chloramines, and chlorine. It is for freshwater and saltwater.


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## NickZac (Dec 15, 2011)

Sweetie wrote:


> Very informative NickZac. How do you know so much about fish?
> 
> I have a test kit. There is a way to get the nitrates without doing water changes. There is a bottle of Amquel+ plus, it removes nitrate, nitrite, ammonia, chloramines, and chlorine. It is for freshwater and saltwater.




Thanks. I had a chance to study with and learn from a lady who was one of the best in the business. I also learned a lot from a fish doctor (yes, they do exist) and a fish pharmacist (I must really sound like a nerd now!!). For a while I was breeding a variety of loaches and plecos, as well as discus. Many of the plecos I bred were $50+ per fish and discus were even more. The exotic plecs can be delicate and discus are perhaps the most delicate of all softwater fish. Obviously, as a business owner you want to make sure you don't lose the stock and also that your fishies do well, and so learning about the most current medications and treatment protocols seemed important and so I spent a few years learning as much as possible. Eventually, I went on to have multiple articles published in a few different mags and sites (two without my authorization).


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## Sweetie (Dec 15, 2011)

Cool! I have been reading up on clown loaches and their care. I love them and they get huge, I saw a big one at Farmland when they had a huge fishtank with all the big fish in it. They still have that big fishtank but not the big clown loach anymore.


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## NickZac (Dec 15, 2011)

Loches, plecs, and discus are my favorite fish. They are all so, so personable. I had a big tank of fish by my bed with 10 massive clowns (among others) and I would constantly watch them play games and do things that seem way beyond what an average person would think a fish can do. They are incredibly personable fish...especially the big ones as I swear they literally all developed a unique personality. I'd watch them for hours given how much they move around...my bunny would watch the tank as well! I miss my loaches so much, but I was physically unable to provide them with the care they deserved and so they needed to go to a loving home that could give them that care


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## Sweetie (Dec 15, 2011)

WOW! How big of a fishtank would I need for a full grown clown loach? I know I have a while yet before I have to get a bigger tank but it will be good to know so that I can save up for it and get it when needed.


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## Sweetie (Dec 15, 2011)

Oh and clown loaches are my favorite fish. I also like bettas. I have two of them, they are in separate tanks, I have a halfmoon and a doubletail betta.


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## Bunnylova4eva (Dec 15, 2011)

*NickZac wrote: *


> Bunnylova4eva wrote:





> well all today he's been like this when he does come out(and last night) I don't know why he thinks the thermometer is so great...? :





> You do not have enough gravel in their unless it is just the pic. For a 10 gal, you want 15 pounds of gravel. The problem with a 10 gallon, or even a 20 gallon, is that they are so small that they become prone to water parameter fluctuations that are often enough to cause disease and/or kill the fish outright. If the filter is a Top Fin with carbon cartridges, it is worth noting that: 1) carbon removes any added medication almost immediately and also removes any trace elements that are beneficial to the fish, and 2) that particular filter is a weak model in that it only provides mechanical and chemical filtration, where as other hang-on-the-back models, such as the AquaClear, provides biological filtration as well. Biological filtration is a billion times more important than the other two.





> *I do have more gravel I can add-I didn't realize how necesary it was. No, the filter isn't Top Fin. I do forget the exact brand. I'll have to go back and look it up. I got it several years back. It does have the carbon filters. I also have a small undergravel filter in there as well from another tank, which I recently added.*





> Nancy McClelland wrote:





> When you add water, did you also ad something to neutralize chlorine/chloramine? The city changed the chemicals in the water and didn't notify the public for a month--I lost all of my Betas.





> When I first started I made this same mistake. It is worth outright noting for others that while letting water sit or heavy aeration neutralizes chlorine, it will not break the chloramine bond. Furthermore, not all dechlorinators will break this bond either and so the chemical needs to explicitly say 'neutralizes chlorine AND chloramine'. Many cities will change up chemicals to 'shock' pathogens, often without public notice. Most (but not all) modern dechlorinators wil break the chloramine bond.





> *Yes, the declorinator does say it neutralizes chlorine and chloramine.
> 
> *





> Watermelons wrote:





> Most large pet stores will test your water for free as often as you want. Save your money.
> May not be anything wrong with your tank or the water. Might just be the fish.





> Generally if something is wrong with the fish, it has to do with, or began with, the water. I would say 98% of ill health starts as stress caused from an issue with water parameters. I would not rely on these stores to do testing as a water test is essentially a blood test for fish. I managed one once for a very short period of time and quit because of the horrific conditions fish were exposed to due to ignorance on behalf of the employees. Later I went to become a published writer on fish health and disease. Most people at those pet stores do not know how to properly test tank water. Furthermore, the equipment they have is often tainted and their disease treatments kill the fish more often than the disease. A $30 Master Test Kit can save you hundreds of dollars of lost fish and endless grief. Every fish owner needs a test kit for the basics at least:
> -ammonia
> -nitrite
> -nitrate
> -pH





> > *I haven't bought the kit yet-I need to go. Haven't been to the pet store in a while, but I do realize its very important. I thought this fish was about to die, but it keeps hanging on and as of this evening is looking much better. I'm just waiting for the water to come to room temp. before changing some.*





> OP, a lot of things affect fish healthâ¦just a few questions in determining tank/fish health would be:
> -What is the temp and temp flux? *74 but usually 72 in the earlymornings.*
> -What is the heater set at? *I don't have a heater currently. Still investigating.*
> -What are ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate readings? (the numbers) *? Not sure, I just know they said it was fine. I can't know the exact readings until I get a test kit.*
> ...






> In order to master the art of fishkeeping, it is important to understand beyond the dynamics behind just the fish. Fish keeping is not as much about keeping fish as it is keeping trillions of bacteria that provide a fish the conditions needed to live and thrive. The nitrogen cycle is only part of this complex relationship. An understanding of the biological filter and what constitutes sufficient biological filtration, as well as bio-load thresholds, is critical. Books on fish keeping and fish health are worth there weight in gold, as they provide care and diagnosis guidelines.
> 
> Hope this helps.


*Thanks sooo much for all your help and time spent typing this up-it makes things alot clearer for me. I'd like to learn as much as possible to keep my pets as happy and healthy as possible. :biggrin2:*


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## NickZac (Dec 16, 2011)

Sweetie wrote:


> WOW! How big of a fishtank would I need for a full grown clown loach? I know I have a while yet before I have to get a bigger tank but it will be good to know so that I can save up for it and get it when needed.



Honestly, for a full grown loach you want a minimum of 75 gallons according to literature but realistically a 100+ is better as the 75 isn't as wide as many 10in+ loaches would prefer. Keep in mind the larger the tank that they live in the faster they will grow (although whether in a small or massive tank, they are slow growers none-the-less). My favorite display size in that ballpark is the 135 gallon Oceanic. When they start getting really big, you may want to consider a canister filter such as an Eheim, Fluval or Rena for extra biological filtration. I would generally run between 1-3 on a tank and only one, if any, would have any filter pads. The rest would be filled with ceramic media so that nitrifying bacteria could grow on it. A wet/dry sump also works well for this purpose. Then I would use an Aquaclear hang on the back filled to the brim with filter pads for the mechanical filtration aspect. However, I had a ton of fish in those. For most 100s, a single canister and HOB or 2 canisters is plenty. The canisters are also nice as they provide strong water circulation, which loaches LOVE! (they will literally go up to the filter return and swim 'against the current' sometimes for hours at a time!) The other advantage of a canister is if for some reason when you clean the tank you kill off too much of the good bacteria in the gravel, then the good bacteria in the canister filter will prevent an ammonia spike. They help keep water parameters much more stable than a hang-on filter alone. If you run a canister on your current tank for a few months before going to a new tank, then the canister will have enough bacteria in it to prevent a massive ammonia spike when you move everything to the new tank (you will still have a small ammonia increase but it won't be bad if you keep feeding low).

A lot of people think this is expensive but it is easy to find $1,000+ set ups with the tanks, stands, lights, sumps, etc. for a few hundred bucks or even free on Craigslist (moving sales and people need money or can't afford their fish with the economy). The 100+ gallon tanks also provide water parameter stability which is excellent and maintenance is actually less than a 55 (provided they are stocked the same). If you did go to that size, I would even consider treating yourself to a few other loaches, as many varying loach types do well together, and the more you have the more social they will be. Yoyo loaches are as amusing as clown loaches, and Zebras can be a lot of fun too. What always made me laugh is every time a tank had 8 or more loaches in it and once they became used to each other, they would all 'congregate' together in spaces that simply would seem impossible for all of them to fit inside of. I would put a piece of PVC pipe in that was less than a foot long and 20+ 4 inch loaches would just 'chill' inside of it!


I also always kept a few Angelicus with my Yoyos and Clowns as they always make a tank look 'vibrant'


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## NickZac (Dec 16, 2011)

Bunnylova4eva wrote:


> *Thanks sooo much for all your help and time spent typing this up-it makes things alot clearer for me.Â  I'd like to learn as much as possible to keep my pets as happy and healthy as possible. :biggrin2:*



My pleasure! If you ever have any questions, feel free to ask.

If you are interested, this is one of my favorite keeping books that covers most of the basics.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0793821010/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## Sweetie (Dec 16, 2011)

Cool I will consider getting a bigger tank then and more loaches. Can I get more clown loaches for the 55 gallon tank that I have, or should I wait? Of course this will be when I have the money to get them, because here they cost about $30 for a big one and they are hard to find.


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## MagPie (Dec 16, 2011)

*NickZac wrote: *


> There are two types of fish commonly called glow fish. The ones which are danios and glow in the dark are not injected; they are actually known by the brand name GloFish. The ones which are injected are called Glass Fish, but are commonly (incorrectly) called glowfish.




Ooooh I didn't know there was a danio that glowed in the dark naturally. I have heard of the glass fish and the white skirt tetras that are also injected with dye. I always tried to get people to not buy those when I worked in a fish pet store. Sadly tho, a lot of people didn't care.



Personally I always like the skirts without the dye. I liked having them, hardy little fish and personable. Tho the pencil fish I have now are something new.



Ooooh I love Discus. I am not into the hobby as much as I used to. I ended up getting into reptiles.


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## NickZac (Dec 17, 2011)

MagPie wrote:


> *NickZac wrote: *
> 
> 
> > There are two types of fish commonly called glow fish. The ones which are danios and glow in the dark are not injected; they are actually known by the brand name GloFish. The ones which are injected are called Glass Fish, but are commonly (incorrectly) called glowfish.
> ...



GloFish are genetically modified where as 'painted' glass fish are forcibly injected with a syring. Only about 5% of glass fish survive, if that.
http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/beginnerinfo/a/paintedfish.htm


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