# Misinformation about rabbits



## whitelop (Sep 13, 2012)

I just read an old old thread about a girl who got a baby bunny from the Fashion District of LA. There is a huge problem there with people selling 2 week old baby bunnies. They leave the cages out in the sun with no shelter and only give them carrots and lettuce. First, buns aren't supposed to be taken from their moms that early and aren't supposed to be fed that stuff yet. Second, its awful. When people buy the buns they don't know much about buns other than they're cute and small, and when they get the bunnies they're on deaths door because they were weaned too early. LA is trying to fight the problem, but I guess they don't have the man power to combat it properly. 
It makes me want to go to LA and take all the baby bunnies that are there and save them. Its horrible and it makes me sick. 

It made me think about when I first got my rabbit. I didn't know much about rabbits. I got her on a whim and had to do a lot of reading. I'll be honest, for the first few days of her living with me, I didn't do everything right. But I soon corrected everything and she's been with me for 3 years with no serious problems. Other than spring time allergies. 
When I got her, we lived in this teeny tiny apartment. We were friends with our neighbors and they were over a lot. The neighbors were a couple and they were nice. He worked at Petco and thought he knew all about small animals. I don't think Petco sells rabbits, just ferrets, hampster/gerbils and rats. So what really sticks in my mind about talking to him about rabbits was he told me not to give her much hay. He said that too much hay was bad for rabbits. I was giving her the alfalfa hay then. Can you believe him? He worked at a pet store/supply store and he told me to not give my rabbit hay! 

That was a long time ago, and we've moved away from them. But that still sticks in my mind and it makes me a little ill. It just goes to show that the people who sell the rabbits and other animals at pet stores a lot of times don't know what they're talking about! So they can't give the people who are buying the animals the proper information on how to care for the animals. That really urks me. I didn't get my rabbit at a pet store, I got her at an animal supply store. The guy who sold her to me, is a friend of ours and pretty knowledgeable about rabbits. He's also an advocate for animals, and gets on better with animals than he does people. He told me some key things, but most of it I had to learn for myself. 

Has anyone else experienced the stupidity of the people who work in pet stores? Or a place like Petco/Petsmart? 
Or has anyone been told misinformation about rabbits by someone they knew? 

I've also had people tell me a lot of ridiculous things about my chickens and their eggs.


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## MiniLopHop (Sep 13, 2012)

I saw a short time ago that either the SPCA or Humane Society was launching a campain to really crack down and prossecute the LA people for animal crulty. I hope it gets better. It is illegal to sell rabbits that young.

When I got my first rabbit as an adult I thought I knew what I was getting into because I had rabbits as a kid. Oh how times have changed! As a kid they were hutch rabbits and they got pellets and carrots. Now I cringe at the thought. No wonder my mom complained how delicate they were and that they died all the time.

Luckily I found a good bunny friend that turned me on to RO and I found good references. I soaked up the house rabbit society like a man in the desert. Now all my buns are in the house with me and spoiled to the max. 

I have interrupted a sales person at PetSmart before. They got really mad, but they were saying limited hay as a treat and they could just put any two rabbits together. I pictured a bloody mess and had to say something. They went and got their manager, who agreed with me. I have a feeling the sales person got a lecture or fired after I left because I never saw him again. I didn't mean to make someone lose their job, but come on people....


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## Korr_and_Sophie (Sep 13, 2012)

Unfortunately most people who sell rabbits and work in a pet store don't know much about rabbits. They are in it for the money and to make a sale. Just look at some of the treats and other stuff available, most is terrible and totally unsuitable for rabbits but is still sold because people will buy it. Even informational material (books, magazines, care sheets etc) tend to not be great and have some not so good info in them. 

Many pet stores that sell rabbits and other small mammals don't feed hay or give very little. They might give a small handful a day, but you rarely see them with lots of hay, just pellets and water. 

I don't really get people telling me to do thing too much, but I do see a lot in books and some websites that make be cringe.


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## MiniLopHop (Sep 13, 2012)

I do have to add that I love my Natural Pet Store. I didn't realise the difference until I had been going there a while, they do really care. In chatting with one of the people who worked there about their selection of things for rabbits (it was a new section for them at the time) I mentioned that the yogurt drops were very unhealthy and potentially dangerous because of the gut flora issues. I went in for something the next week and everything yogurt aimed at rabbits was gone. 

Three cheers for Cutter's Mills! :clapping:


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## Nancy McClelland (Sep 13, 2012)

It varies from store to store. We had a Petland here that was really good, due to the people working there, not anything to do with how their company is run.


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## MyJuneAngel (Sep 13, 2012)

Some pet stores are awful. My mom was sold a 3 week old bunny and told to give it lettuce and carrots and pellets. We already had rabbits and I was livid that they gave her such information. I filled her in on the basics and the bunny did okay but it still makes me mad. They sold her guinea pigs that were about the same age.  

There is all kinds of misinformation out concerning rabbits and it makes me sad. When we rehomed the kits from our litters I spent hours talking with the potential owners explaining everything. I wanted them to know exactly what they were getting themselves in to, even if they changed their mind in the process (since taking care of rabbits isn't always easy). Happy to say we got some great homes for ours and ours weren't rehomed until they were 8-10 weeks old. Sure, they were bigger than the teensy babies at the pet store but they were also fully weaned, socialized and healthy.


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## whitelop (Sep 13, 2012)

@MyJuneAngel, that's unbelievable that they sold your mom a bunny that was that young! I got my bun when she was close to 4 months probably, she wasn't super small but still a lot smaller than she is now. I mean everyone loves a kit, but we as humans aren't equipped to really take care of them. If you're in that situation you do the best you can I'm sure, but we aren't bunnies. They need their mothers.

I can't stand to go into pet stores. They make me sick. There is actually a pet store down the road from me and I've been in there twice. The first time, I saw all the puppies grouped by breed in baby pools with wire fencing around them to keep the puppies in. I turned around and walked out. The second time I went in I was with my hub and he wanted to check it out, to see if we needed to call anyone. They still had all the dogs the same way, but the pools they were in were clean. All the animal cages were clean, but it still really bothers me. They always advertise the same breeds of dogs and I actually think they get them from a puppy mill. I've called animal authorities and no one has ever called me back. But every time I ride by I yell "they sell puppy mill puppies!" (they're on a corner, so I'm at the stop sign most of the time.) hahaha. 
I know its probably an a-hole thing to do, but I've been in there and its not right the way it looks. They only sell toy breeds of dogs and those are the types of dogs that most often come from the puppy mills. We've also in our area had several really BIG busts in the last year or so. Its a scary and very sad thought.


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## littl3red (Sep 14, 2012)

That's horrible.  I admit all of my rats came from pet stores, just because I never thought about adopting rats. I was very misinformed on that topic. I remembered having rats when I was younger and being able to train them and I wanted them again. I've never had an experience like that myself, but once I went into our petco to see a girl about my age holding a very ill looking rat. It was wheezing very badly and obviously was having a myco flare-up. I told her to take him to the vet and get him Baytril, and it should clear right up, but to do it very quickly. (I had a rat die in two days because of a surprise myco flare-up when I was particularly broke and I feel so, so very sick when I think of it.) We had talked some more, and she told me that he was her only rat. The employees there had told her that it would be okay for her to have only one rat, which is very very incorrect. Rats must live in the company of other rats, because they are so social. She was also feeding him a horrible, fatty "food" that was basically just a treat-mix. (Sunflower seeds, CORN, etc. with a couple pellets thrown in there.) She thanked me profusely as I was leaving, and said she was going to wait behind to talk to one of the managers about selling her a sick rat. (I have had three rats from Petco and two died within months of bringing them home. One does have problems with myco, but I'm fairly certain he is immortal.)


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## Imbrium (Sep 14, 2012)

I hang out on yahoo answers for a bit each day in the "pets - other" section even though doing so often makes my brain hurt due to the sheer stupidity of some people. I answer bunny questions to the best of my abilities, do research, show people the good websites, tell them to come here if they have more questions, etc. not because stupid people who get bunnies and don't bother to learn about them are worth my time, but because I take pity on all the bunnies out there with clueless owners and want to do what I can to make their lives a little better. granted, there are some who *have* done their research but still need a little more info or maybe didn't find the best sites yet, but others are flat-out morons.

the worst is when I answer questions about hedgehogs, ferrets, guinea pigs, etc. - animals that I've never owned. when I can find - and verify - the answer to a question in < 60 seconds using google, I cry a little inside for the person's pet. it's gotten to the point that I know more about guinea pigs than a lot of people who own them just from doing research to answer other peoples' questions.

this one today is one of the most brain-hurting ones I've seen so far:
"Please hElp my rabbit!!;(?
My rabbit likes to eat marshmallows all the time!!i can't let him to stop eating marshmallows because she don't like to eat any other food than marshmallows..also my rabbit likes to eat rubber..especially my rubber slippers..it is safe to her to eat marshmallows and rubber?????"

then there was this - a question where I could tell someone was a fail owner, but it wasn't even the person who was asking the question:
What do you feed a rabbit!!?
Okay so a friend of mine today asked me if I can watch her rabbit for a couple of hours and I said yes, she brought it over and filled its bowl with carrots and left,but about 6 hours later (11pm) she asked me if I can keep it at my house overnight because it was to late for her to come pick it up. Anyway, I told her her rabbit is running out of food and I don't have anything to feed it (I don't have any veggies or fruits in my house right now since I made my last veggies for lunch and wont go shopping until saturday) Its to late to go to shopping right now and after I told her that she just shrugged it off and I try to contact her but I think she turned her phone off. Now this rabbit has only 4 baby carrot sticks left and I don't want it to starve to death. I don't want to be responsible for this animal dieing. What do I feed this thing?

Additional Details
I don't have hay and all that crap. Taking care of this thing was a last minute thing and it was only suppose to be for a couple of hours.

in my answer, I begged her to make her friend visit http://www.rabbit.org/faq/sections/diet.html#babies to find out what the rabbit *should* be eating instead of buttloads of carrots >< (I also recommended feeding hand-picked grass that she was sure hadn't been sprayed with pesticides since she wasn't able to go to a store to get anything else)


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## Blue eyes (Sep 17, 2012)

Hey Imbrium, I've seen you there on yahoo answers. I used to field rabbit questions there quite often, but I just haven't had the time recently. There are only a few there that know how to answer rabbit questions accurately. (Catx is a good one if you've ever seen her answers) (BTW, did you find out about RO on there? I had recommended RO to a couple people - just curious.

Whitelop, the LA fashion district is still an ongoing problem. Bunny World Foundation is one of the groups leading the fight. In fact, Bunny World is where I got my Sapphire. They have all kinds of info on their facebook site. Minilop is correct. In CA, it is illegal to sell a rabbit less than 8 weeks of age. That rule will help Bunny World to prosecute the sellers at the Fashion District.

Minilop, you sound like me. I can't help myself either when I see/hear stuff at the petstores that is no good. One woman was looking at those tiny cages & I started talking to her about NIC cages being less expensive (and bigger, heh, heh). I'm afraid I have a hard time 'minding my own business' when it comes to rabbit mistreatment. I also told a feed store that was selling pet rabbits that they really need to provide hay 24/7. 

Whitelop, you are correct about all the misinformation out there. I always say that rabbits are one of the most misunderstood pets by far. :rabbithop:anotherbun


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## Imbrium (Sep 17, 2012)

yeah, one day I was reading through responses to one of those standard "teach me everything about bunnies 'cause I'm too lazy to do my own research" questions or something like that and someone else who answered before I got to it mentioned RO, so I decided to check it out. I don't remember who it was, someone I haven't seen in a while... I wanna say "little" was part of their name? I dunno. and yeah, catx, hubley and a couple others are good with the bunny questions.

here's another depressing tale, from the hamster forums I've been poking around on since getting my hammy (http://hamsterhideout.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=71383 ):



> I didn't realise how popular this thread got! But I hope this isnt off topic but I went to the same petsmart today and Lets just say it could have gone better. So I was there getting guinea pig food and hay and then a little girl(couldn't be older then 9) with her mom looking at the cages (which were right next to us) I didnt bother paying attention cause it was none of my business but then I heard "look sweetie this cage would be perfect for your bunny" and guess what she was pointing to this cage: http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4471004 . I nearly died that cage is too small for a hamster let alone a bunny! I decided I would just tell them that the rabbit cages where in the other aisle and they were very nice and said thanks for the help and went to the other aisle.. BUT when I was about to leave I saw them with the same cage and a petsmart employee was helping them take it to there car! That petsmart employee told them that, that cage was good for a bunny until it became a adult... I couldent do anything anymore but man i wish this petsmart waasnt my only option for pet stuff -_-.


my bunnies' CARRIER is bigger than that cage (it's approx 28''x14''x14'' - 2x1x1 NIC grids) and my hamster lives in a 42 3/4''x22''x18'' bin cage... I can't IMAGINE stuffing a bunny into a 24''x14''x15'' cage, not even a baby!


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## littl3red (Sep 17, 2012)

Oh my gosh, they used THAT for a RABBIT? I had a cage about that size because I needed a cheap quarantine cage for a new rat, and that was only 14 days, for a young rat, and I felt bad about such a small cage for that!  Geez, I hate seeing things like that...


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## Imbrium (Sep 18, 2012)

oh god, my brain. ow.

another delightful brain aneurysm from yahoo answers:
"Help!!? Is my bunny pregnant ?
Well I just got it last week and I'm not pretty sure if it's a girl or a boy? Anyways I think it's a girl. she's been eating a lot lately and gaining a little pounds quick is she pregnant? I tried looking for eggs by feeling her abdomen not sure...does this mean she is pregnant or gaining pound? I adopted her and other bunnies were with her in the shelter? Please help? Is she pregnant!:0"

looking... for EGGS??? dear god.

I said to call the shelter and find out if they spay/neuter bunnies before adoption because most places don't adopt out pets that aren't fixed, then recommended spaying (or an emergency spay if pregnant and not more than about two weeks along). no one who thinks bunnies lay eggs should be anywhere near newborn bunnies. (or bunnies in general, if you ask me)

oh, and their follow-up info was: "I can't afford a vet or know how to check her agin I just got her she's not every confident in me"

FFS, why do you buy a pet knowing you can't afford to take it to the vet if something happens?? I mean, if you've had it for a while and your financial situation changes unexpectedly, that's one thing... but if you got it a week ago?? heck, I took my bunns to the vet shortly after I got them just for a well-being check and to make sure I had a good vet lined up for them for later.


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## littl3red (Sep 18, 2012)

...eggs? [faith in humanity=0]


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## whitelop (Sep 18, 2012)

If you type in 'do rabbits...' into the google search bar 'lay eggs' is what comes up after rabbits. Clearly, A LOT of people are seeing if rabbits lay eggs. I think its the whole Easter bunny, Cadburry egg thing. People are confused and stupid I guess. 
Its a little unbelievable. I'm a member of a chicken forum and you can ask questions about other animals, someone asked about their rabbit. They keep the bun outside and left the doe in with the buck to date for TWO AND A HALF WEEKS. She moved the doe back into her own hutch, the doe made a nest and then the person found blood in the nest but no kits. So she(I assume its a she) checked the bun and couldn't feel anything but wouldn't take it to the vet for whatever reason. Then she wouldn't check the rabbit again because the rabbit didn't like to be held. 
? 
WHAT? One, if you don't know what you're doing to when you breed a rabbit then why are you doing it? I know next to nothing about breeding rabbits. I would NEVER try to breed based on the knowledge that I have now. 
Two, if you're scared to pick your rabbit up because it doesn't like to be picked up because you don't pick it up; you shouldn't have bred the rabbit. My bun doesn't like to be held, but she gets held. Its just ridiculous and irritating when I read things like this! Ahhh. 
Oh and three, if you post something on a public forum aimed at people who know more about animals than you do and you ask what they think you should do about your maybe pregnant/maybe not pregnant doe, and they say you should take it to the vet and you don't...then you're a moron. 

Yes, my day has been rant filled and I'll just mark that one as #48 for today. hahaha. Its been that kind of day!


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## littl3red (Sep 18, 2012)

I know, that frustrates me, when people say "my pet is sick, what do I do?" And you're like "take it to the vet" and they're like "oh, that's too hard, I'll do anything except get my pet proper medical care." I mean, if your rabbit sneezed, or your dog has a small scratch or something, I understand not taking them to the vet, but good lord...


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## Imbrium (Sep 18, 2012)

what irks me even more is when it's not the owner/person asking that won't spring for the vet trip, it's their PARENTS. way to set a good example for your kids, dumb*ss. how better to teach them responsibility than to get them a pet and then be freaking irresponsible about it? *facepalm*

we had pets as a kid and they ALWAYS went to the vet if they were sick. I had a bunny get a tiny cut on his shoulder and we were tending to it ourselves by putting neosporin on it/keeping it clean and such... then one day during his outdoor romp, he got flystrike. we didn't know what it was but caught it quickly and knew it was BAD - mom coughed up the cash to take him to an emergency vet, who said she got him there just in time and was able to save his life. heck, we even took a hamster to the vet a time or two, which SO many people won't do because "it's just a hamster" (like they're disposable or something).

don't give in and get your kid a pet if you're not going to set a good example by caring for it properly! it's sad when the kid KNOWS their pet needs to go to a vet but the stupid parents are refusing.

most special "my parents are stupid" question... http://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...EAl6f83ty6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20120806210240AAHJWzy

kid's parents were actually considering getting his kid brother a tiger to live in the back yard... and I'm pretty certain by the way the post is written that it was serious/not trolling. kid wanted to know how to convince his parents that they were insane to even consider it. FFS, a baby TIGER? yeah, great way to get your kid eaten.


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## whitelop (Sep 18, 2012)

I would totally have a tiger! Then again, I'm also insane and I have the land to have large animals. That would never happen though. 

Growing up, my mom always took our animals to the vet. We had cats and dogs my whole life and if something, even the smallest thing was wrong, we would take it to the vet. I've been going to the same vet for 20 years, they know me by name and they cut me deals all the time. They spayed to feral cats for me for $120, including shots. Thats pretty awesome. 
It is very irresponsible for the parents to act like that. I'm not like that. I take my animals to the vet. My bun isn't spayed, but she's been to the vet. And I just spent 3 hours the other day on the phone with 100 different vets in my area trying to find the right vet to take my bun to get spayed. I think a lot of kids have issues with their parents and animals. The kids beg and beg for the animals but the parents don't want to take care of them. 
I can't wait for my son to want to get his 'own' pet. He's only 15 months now, so I'll have to wait until hes like 5 or so to want to pick out the animal he wants as a pet. I know what I'll have to be the one to take primary care of the animal and foot the vet bill. But thats part of being a good parent, you teach them how to take care of the animals and help them do things on their own, but you have to take the responsibility for the animal. 
I spend about half my day tending to my small farm. I have dogs, cats, a bun, and chickens. I spend a lot of time feeding, cleaning the buns litter box, raking out chicken coops and free ranging chickens. All that falls to me, my hub doesn't do any of the animal work. But thats something I brought on myself, having a small farm. We're also talking about adding alpacas to our brood. Alpacas are awesome and hopefully we'll be able to find a reasonable price for them. 
But, as my son gets older, I'll teach him how to care for and manage the animals that way he can help me and when hes grown and moved out, he'll know how to care for animals the right way. Speaking of chickens, I've got to go check and make sure their coop door is shut.


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## littl3red (Sep 18, 2012)

I work very hard to pay for ALL of Teddy's expenses, INCLUDING vet visits, but if there were a reason I couldn't pay for it, I'm sure my mom would. I don't know if she likes Teddy that much, but she knows how devestated I would be if I lost her. But like I said, so far it's been all MY money and MY time.


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## MiniLopHop (Sep 18, 2012)

I once had a person that was responsible for the rabbits at the SPCA ask me how to know when rabbits were in heat. :foreheadsmack:


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## Imbrium (Sep 18, 2012)

uh, wow. I used to not know they were induced ovulators, but that was before I had them. if you're in charge of them at a shelter, you'd think you'd know more than I knew in my first week as a new bunny owner *facepalm*


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## lauratunes12 (Sep 18, 2012)

I feel bad, we actually have that cage right now for Faith.. But she's only 9 weeks old(7 when we got her) and we're working on building a NIC cage ASAP. It was only meant as a temporary cage because we came across the right bunny at the wrong time. She also gets a few hours of outside time every night.


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## whitelop (Sep 18, 2012)

Your bun is still a baby and you're preping for a new cage. I think its okay for temporary situations.


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## Imbrium (Sep 18, 2012)

temporary with many hours out of it is different than "hi, you live in this now". you know the cage is small. you know to build a NIC cage. not so much with the person who knows nothing of bunnies and is told by a pet store employee "it's just fine."


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## Grape (Sep 19, 2012)

I got my bunny from a pet store, i know shame shame. :embarrassed: but i did think it was really funny when the baby bunnies were labeled holland lops and then the person who sold her to me said, "just so you know these bunnies grow to be 12 pounds at least" :craziness


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## Imbrium (Sep 19, 2012)

2 lbs, 12 lbs, same diff, right?


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## MiniLopHop (Sep 19, 2012)

Sophie is a New Zealand/ Flemish Giant mix. Her original family dumped her when she got too big. :? What part of Flemish GIANT made them think she would stay small?


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## whitelop (Sep 19, 2012)

I tell my husband that about our chickens all the time. They're jersey GIANTS. He wonders why my rooster weighs 17 pounds and is almost 3 feet tall. 
I guess no one listens.


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## littl3red (Sep 19, 2012)

:foreheadsmack: Why don't people do research before taking responsibility for a living thing like that? It's ridiculous.


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## Imbrium (Sep 19, 2012)

because, sadly, living things are often mistaken for novelties that exist solely for the amusement of humans


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## dungeonbunnies (Sep 20, 2012)

Whitelop, my almost 3 yr old has his own rabbit, he feeds her, he plays with her, he loves on her with supervision. He also has his own fishtank, he also feeds them. Obviously I do their cleaning, but they're never too young to start learning responsibility!


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## Rescuemom (Sep 22, 2012)

Heh...

My seven year old cousin got a little 3 gal fish tank for his birthday. His mom bought him the tank and supplies, and my mom took him to buy him fish. They get to the pet store and the guy in the fish department says, "I won't let you get anything but a Betta, for that size." Not a goldfish, not even a few neon Tetra's - when those usually live happily in a bowl. This tiny tank even came with a pump! So my mom looks at the Betta's... And he informs her she should get two females, because males can't be together and to only feed them FOUR PELLETS once a week. Yep...

Not only did the one Betta kill the other(too small a tank for them to live peaceably together), but ONE fish was eating ALL the pellets, so the one that died was not only being tortured, but starving as well. I had to inform my aunt of all the problems they had and what they needed to do to keep the last one alive.

I've also had pet store people recommend various, horrible wood chips for bedding, and had others recommend crappy, non-nutritional food to many pets as well.

Not to mention the number of cruel(and often unsafe) devices pet owners can get these days for their pets, and are told are the best, when these owners don't know how to use them properly in the first place, and that item gets turned into a cruel weapon.

I'll turn this bad stuff around though, and tell you about one time that I decided to test out a pet store employee on their knowledge. I told them I wanted the BEST dog food for my dog, as he had epilepsy, and that I was looking for something without preservatives, because they gave him seizures. Not only did she recommend the food I ALREADY had him on(she did not know), but she also pointed out the reasons it was so good for him. I was quite happy with her knowledge on dog food and even spoke to the manager about her. I wish there were more knowledgeable people out there working in pet stores.

I also must say, my buns are currently in pet store cages - they both came to my home in them. But Crush has had his for three years and gets lots of out time, and Fluffy JUST got here the other night, and is getting as much out time as Crush now(whereas she used to live in it 24/7) - I'm trying to bond them while I put aside to get the supplies needed for the huge NIC cage I want to build. I plan to build a two or three-tier cage though, with a wooden frame, so it takes up less floor space, as my house is quite limited in size.

That said, I do recall many years ago when these cages were acceptable, if not considered large at the time, with the added exception of giving the bun's roaming time and exercise outside of it. If I hadn't found this forum before I got Crush, I never would have known that so much had changed.


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## Imbrium (Sep 22, 2012)

yeah, a lot has changed since the last time I had a bunny too... like we didn't give him hay other than one of those compressed alfalfa cubes as a treat now and then. that was like 20 years ago, and what we knew about bunnies we learned either from the shelter my parents got him from or from library books that could easily have been out-of-date. in retrospect, we fed him way more carrot than we should've, too.


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## Kipcha (Sep 22, 2012)

*Rescuemom wrote: *


> My seven year old cousin got a little 3 gal fish tank for his birthday. His mom bought him the tank and supplies, and my mom took him to buy him fish. They get to the pet store and the guy in the fish department says, "I won't let you get anything but a Betta, for that size." Not a goldfish, not even a few neon Tetra's - when those usually live happily in a bowl.




Just to point something out, goldfish cannot live happily in anything other then aMINIMUM 10 gallon tank. Goldfish are extremely filthy fish with a high waste output that contaminates their water very quickly and the amount of cleaning it would take to keep the water at a good level would not be healthy for the fish anyways, not to mention they are a cold water fish and therefore require a lot more air flow then a warm water fish, something a little 3 gallon tank could not supply enough of. Goldfish are quite the misunderstood fish and need a lot more space then people give them credit for.


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## Blue eyes (Sep 22, 2012)

I think one thing few petstores explain is that the larger fish tanks are much easier to clean and to maintain proper balances than the small tanks. I wonder how many are put off by fish-keeping if they start with a too small tank.


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## dungeonbunnies (Sep 22, 2012)

Kipcha, goldfish easily attain sizes of 2' in length, the recommended tank size is 55gal and up for comets ("feeders") and 29 gal for fancies. Sorry to correct, but I figured since we're talking about Misinformation, we'd get the accurate numbers. Gold fish don't take long to foul a 10 gallon, and the only way they "grow to the size of the tank" is bad water quality stunting their growth. A 3 gal is only good for 1 betta, UNLESS you provide lots of decor to hide and break the line of sight. I had 4 bettas (3 females, 1 male) in a 10 (no problems at all with aggression) until the weather caused a fungal infestation that wiped out all 4 bettas within a week, despite medicating. Like bonding rabbits, it all depends on the individual, my fiance's female will kill ANYTHING in the same tank! And a betta's stomach is about the same size as it's eye, so 4-5 pellets PER FISH is about right. [/soapbox] sorry, I feel the same way about my fish as I do my rabbits...

2 of my rabbits are in petstore cages, the other 2 are in wire breeder cages. But I provide hay on the wire floor in addition to their hay rack, and a pad for them to lay on. And everybody gets out time daily. (They have to take turns though)


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## whitelop (Sep 22, 2012)

I have to say that I've had plenty of bettas in the past. We had two females that lived in our community tank and did quite well. The females can be aggressive, but it really depends on the fish. We also had one male in a small one gallon tank with a filter and heater and he lived for over one years in there. He seemed very happy. Then we put one male in with 2 females in a 10 gallon tank and they were very content living together. Bettas are about the only fish that don't need filters because they breathe air with lungs much like a dolphin would. I've done a lot of research on bettas because I wanted to breed them at one point(it didn't pan out, they didn't want to breed. Oh well.) Speaking of bettas, that blue stuff in the water when you get them is a chemical that helps keep the algae out of the little cups, well it burns the bettas fins and gills. Thats why sometimes when you get them you see that they have a black ting to the edges of their fins and gills, its ammonia burns. Its awful the way they ship them and the way they keep them. I've gotten into fights with pet store employees over the care of the bettas. (Literally, I got into a screaming match with a guy who thought he was a genius and gods gift to the world, he quickly got put into his place by the fish guy.) 

I don't know much about goldfish, but I will say that I had a gold fish that lived in a big glass bowl (like a decorative tall bowl, not like a serving dish or anything), he had no filter and just a few rocks on the bottom for color. He only had one eye, and I had him for 5 years. I cleaned his bowl out every other day or so, and he did well. He seemed happy and he would come to the surface if you tapped his bowl a few times, because he knew the food was coming. I was also in the 5th grade when I got him, he was my 5th grade graduation present. Man, I loved that fish.


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## whitelop (Sep 22, 2012)

Oh and I will also say, since we're on fish right now, that I bought a Red Blood Parrot Cichlid. Shes a real beauty, if you like mutants. She is a hybrid of a red devil and mitius cichlid. I had no idea what I was buying when I bought her, I just knew that I wanted one, because they're so pretty. We got her as a semi baby. I did some reading on them and found out that I got a mutant fish. They can't close their mouths because of their genetics and since they can't close their mouths they have to chew their food with their throat muscles. Its very sad and a lot of them don't survive, but mine has done very well. We've had to find the right food for her but we've got it down now and shes almost two years old. 
Anyways, I went into a petsmart after I found out what she was and asked the guy if he knew anything about them. He said that they were South American cichlids (they don't have a nationality because they're man-made) and some other bs that I knew wasn't true. So I told him what they REALLY were. He was shocked. I've also talked to a guy who runs an exotic fish store, who refuses to sell the parrots because they aren't right and he said that we in American get the crappy ones from Japan. We get their 'cull', so the ones they don't want. They keep the ones with perfect mouths. 
We then went to another fish store in our area and looked at the parrots. Even though they are mutants, she is my special girl and I love her dearly. As we looked at the parrots there, we saw that they all had closed mouths and we asked the guy about them. He knew ALL about them. Told us what we already knew and we felt comfortable enough with it to get ANOTHER sad mutant fish! I figured, if at least one gets a good home out of these five babies, thats okay. We knew what she needed and we love her. She is smaller than our other one, but they stick together. They are the bull dogs of the tank. 
So even with the no information with received when first buying her, and the wrong information later. We finally figured it out and now we have two mutant fish that live happily in a 55 gallon tank with an African cat fish and two golden tinfoil barbs.


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## dungeonbunnies (Sep 22, 2012)

I almost bought a pair of BP's when I sold my piranha, but ended up going with more tigerbarbs for my son's "dinosaur" tank. It's difficult for some people to think about animals as living, breathing things that feel, from dogs, to rabbits, to fish, to hermit crabs... pet stores RARELY provide the proper information or products, and it becomes the responsibility of the owner to research proper husbandry. The only problem there; the average person doesn't do the research! That's why it's up to us responsible owners to educate the oblivious. And I have NO trouble doing so!


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## lauratunes12 (Sep 22, 2012)

When I was younger, we had a 10 gallon tank and three fish. I don't remember exactly what breed. Like goldfish, but smaller, and different colors. My oldest brother's fish was blue, my other brother's fish was pink, and mine was "yellow"(I told my mom I wanted a yellow fish, as it was my favorite color at the time, but the fish was clear, even though my mom swears to this day that it was yellow.)


Actually, they looked like this fish:






Anyways, they all lived peacefully, even though I fed them one night and overfed them, they just pooped a little extra(and I got in trouble) but they were healthy. They went in a 5 gallon tank when we cleaned their regular tank with no problems as well. But then the tank cracked and we had to give them to my friend, whose mother accidentally used rat poison instead of fish aquarium cleaner. :rollseyes


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## MagPie (Sep 23, 2012)

Also going to add neon tetras are not good for small tanks either. They like big groups. (I used to work in a fish pet store and I could tell you some stories haha). Oooh I was working there when Finding Nemo came out and everyone wanted a nemo fish. Then they were surprised when I told them they couldn't keep a nemo fish in their fresh water tank. Didn't get that it's a salt water fish. Really? Didn't get the ocean is full of salt? Gawd that drove me f-ing batty. I would try to teach people and a lot of the time they didn't care because it's fish. They wanted the simple lazy answer.


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## dungeonbunnies (Sep 23, 2012)

I giggled when some redneck told his kids that piranhas were saltwater. I thought that Peek would be disappointed to know I'd been doing it wrong the whole time!


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## Imbrium (Sep 23, 2012)

wait, there's SALT in the ocean??


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## MagPie (Sep 24, 2012)

Imbrium wrote:


> wait, there's SALT in the ocean??



:laugh: yes thank you haha.

Oooh and for those of you that have bought live fish before, one guy asked me if I was going to poke holes in the bag so the fish could breathe. Yes he did haha.


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## Imbrium (Sep 24, 2012)

hey, I hear fish breathe REALLY well after all the water drains out of the bag


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## MiniLopHop (Sep 24, 2012)

I have a 20 gallon heavily planted with live plants. I had 6 male gullpies, 6 neons, and a beta for a couple years but my guppies are dying off (I think from old age). I was impressed that when I was looking at the fish over the weekend the person asked what size tank I had, what was in it, and what I was considering. Since I was looking at more guppies, tetras, or dinos she was pleased. I'm guessing if I was looking at something crazy like a ciclid she would have said something. I ended up not getting anything yet.

Emily- now I'm worried about my neons, is 6 a large enough group? They have always seemed happy and also play with the guppies so I thought they were ok?

I love to watch the fish play together in the bubbler. I have a long bubble bar across the back of the tank. They will clump together as a group in the bottom right side. Then one at a time will swim into the bubble stream and ride it to the top of the tank. Then they go back to the group to wait their turn to go again. It has to be play, there's nothing else I can think of what they could be doing.


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## dungeonbunnies (Sep 24, 2012)

MiniLopHop- Your neons are fine, groups of 5 are considered the minimum for natural shoaling/schooling behavior.


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## MagPie (Sep 25, 2012)

Brandy, yeah six'll be fine but I always like them in larger groups. They seem more comfortable. But if yours aren't having any issues I'm sure its fine. 


I have a 10 gallon planted (algae attacked again aaah) that has 3 orange hatchet danios in it. Been trying to find more of them but they are hard to find.


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## whitelop (Sep 25, 2012)

This is what the directions say with the rabbit food that I use.
"Provide your rabbits with all the small world rabbit they will consumeeach day, or limit-feed as necessary To achieve the desired bodycondition. Clean the feeding cup daily And be sure To provide fresh,clean water at all times, small world rabbit is a complete diet. Hayand other forages can be fed, but are not required. Reminder: feed isperishable. Store this product in a cool, dry area away From rodentsand insects."

I want you guys to take note of the hay part. Why do pet food companies and/or sales associates know nothing about the animals they sell/sell for?
I'm a little in shock that I just read that.


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## Imbrium (Sep 25, 2012)

sadly, I'm not


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## MiniLopHop (Sep 25, 2012)

Wow, that sucks that it is printed on the bag. Then again, look at all the "treats" sold for pets. I actually just went through the isle reading the bags because I need help getting Becky's weight up. They say to feed 2-3 snacks a day! :shock:

It's no wonder so many buns are over weight with that kind of information. Becky gets 2 a day to keep enough weight on, but the rest of my warren never gets the store bought treats because they are just too fattning. They prefer flowers as treats anyway.

But hay as a treat? That is nuts! I guess it is all about the money. I'm going to see what an oxbow bag says. I get it in bulk so the bag is just marked with the food name but I need gerbil food anyway so I will be in the store tonight.

I guess people figure if they want it then it must be good for them? I would love to eat cookies all day but my mom gave me vegetables because that is what is good for me.


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## BugLady (Sep 25, 2012)

Pet stores make me so sad... all of the things that are unhealthy, inappropriate, and downright dangerous.

It makes me upset that companies are so eager to lie to people and sell dangerous products, that the pet stores are oblivious enough to carry those products, and that customers are ignorant enough to buy them. 

I read ingredients for all the pet food I buy - the "treats" for small animals are horrific! Heck, even fish food is filled with gross stuff and preservatives fish shouldn't eat. Took me a while to find a brand of flakes with real ingredients. I wouldn't feed my animals anything I wouldn't eat myself (hypothetically, at least, based on the ingredients - I don't want to eat the mice that my snakes eat, but I know that they're healthy! And I don't want to eat hay, but I'd be willing to try a bite of timothy hay, but I'd never ever eat a stupid yogurt drop). 

It's the same way I feel grocery shopping. I don't eat any processed food or dairy or grains, so I have to have a sort of tunnel vision to ignore all of the unhealthy food while I'm shopping. 

I think pet stores should start taking some responsibility and stop offering unhealthy garbage for our pets. Yes, people should be aware of what they are buying, but let's face it... most people will trust packaging and grab whatever looks pretty on the shelf. "It says it's for rabbits so it must be good", right?

It seems like dog and cat food are shaping up in a lot of places - the petsmart near me has a huge "health food" section that takes up 1/3 of the store. But the small animals are left behind, still with their multicolored plastic cages and sugar filled treats. Sigh.


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## Imbrium (Sep 25, 2012)

*BugLady wrote: *


> I wouldn't feed my animals anything I wouldn't eat myself (hypothetically, at least, based on the ingredients - I don't want to eat the mice that my snakes eat, but I know that they're healthy! And I don't want to eat hay, but I'd be willing to try a bite of timothy hay, but I'd never ever eat a stupid yogurt drop).


hehe, I've actually tried everything my bunnies have ever eaten except cilantro 'cause I can barely even stand to smell that junk. I've even tasted their pellets and various types of hay, just to see what it is they're eating/what they like.


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## MiniLopHop (Sep 25, 2012)

LOL I have tried all of my pets food other than the live things (earth worms, meal worms etc) that my turtles and birds eat. I find that the fewer ingredients listed on the labels and that I can say them all is important. 

I shop similarly for myself, the outside edge of the store has all the good stuff- fresh produce, meat, dairy, and I do dip into the organic section for whole grains. The less processed the better.

I don't agree with people making their cats and dogs vegetarian though, that is going too far. Their bodies are not made to run that way and I think it is hard on them.


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## Blue eyes (Sep 25, 2012)

Unfortunately, I think a lot of these pet stores are more about the bottom line. Sure, in theory, they may be all for the pets, but those small rabbit cages make money and all that crap food & crappy treats make money. They would have to greatly reduce their stock if they stopped selling those money makers. And then the uninformed customers would simply think they don't have enough variety so they'll go instead to the store with all the crap.


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## Imbrium (Sep 25, 2012)

sad, but true  some people want variety more than they want what's truly best for their pet.


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## whitelop (Sep 25, 2012)

Jennifer and Brandy, I laughed out loud when you said you tried all your pets food! 
Because I HAVE TOO! Except the frozen blood worms that my fish eat. I've tried the chicken feed, the rabbit food, the hay, all the vegetables that Foo eats because I eat them too. My wild bird seed only have real things in it, black oil sunflower seeds, dried cherries, raisins, and peanuts. It looks like trail mix to me, but I don't sit around and snack on it! 
The rabbit food that I was using, that I saw the label on wasn't a terrible food. It probably wasn't great, but it wasn't horrible. The protein/fat/fiber and everything seemed to be pretty normal with what everyone says to feed.
But, I just got my sample of Sherwood Forest a few days ago and she seems to like it. So hopefully I'll make the switch if she really likes it. The good thing about my bun is, she not picky at all! 

I also feed my dog a really really good dog food. I pay so much money for that food, its unreal. He is a dingo and naturally very thin. I can't stand how thin he is. He isn't as active as he once was and is still thin. So I got him this dog food from this tiny town in TX and he loves it. Its helped him put the weight back on and now I can't see his ribs as well. $65 for a 40# bag! I mean, I would eat his dog food. It smells like chicken and its hollistic. 

Back to the real topic of hay, that seems to be an on going trend for pet store employees to tell people. I just didn't think I would see it on a label. Its a really unfortunate thing.


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## whitelop (Sep 25, 2012)

Oh, and I'll be honest I used to get this one type of rabbit food that had all kinds of stuff in it. I can't remember the brand. But it had hay and twigs and little bits of fruit? maybe and other things in it. I used to feed it to Foo as a TREAT. She had her regular pellets that she ate and of course all her hay and greens. I would give her just a little bit every few days as a treat. She LOVED that crap. It never did any harm to her, she didn't blow up to over weight or anything like that. 
Yep, theres my rabbit confession for today! I haven't been the best rabbit mama but who has?! But it wasn't her full diet, everyone must remember that before casting stones; it was just a treat!


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## MiniLopHop (Sep 25, 2012)

no stones from me.... I'm feeding Becky some crap every day to try to fatten her up a little. I don't know what else to do, oats were not enough.

I switched my cats to Wellness Core because one was too thin and had a tendency to barf. The other was too chubby. Now they have ballanced out- no more barfing! They are both at healthy weights now with the good food.


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## CharmmyBunny (Sep 25, 2012)

i think this may make some people feel better about rabbits in LA. (as i live here in LA) recently this year a new law was proposed that rabbits and chicks can not be sold in LA. it has not passed yet, but it is an issue and it is trying to be passed currently. yes sadly we all come across it where people are selling aimals they know will either end up in a shelter or being abandoned when they get older. they are doing this in order to lessen the over crowding of shelters and for the benefit of all rabbits. out here ferrets are also illegal so we have no ferrets, and chinchillas are hard to come by i only know of 2 stores in the area that have chinchillas, but ll our pet-co's dont sell rabbits its mainly smaller family type store that sell bunnies. and yest there are some parts in downtown (chinatown area) that people sell animals way too young, but they would be subject to the same law. 

as far as pet stores being morons i have a few stories i had to teach a few how to sex a bunny. and what kind of bedding/litter is best for rats and rabbits. they were using a bedding for rats that was making them have respiratory issues.


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## whitelop (Sep 25, 2012)

Thats great that they're trying to pass that law! I don't know what that means for the people who live there that have rabbits, but at least it will stop the rabbit sales on the streets and in the markets and stuff. 
Thanks for sharing that with us!


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## CharmmyBunny (Sep 25, 2012)

oh youre still allowed to own rabbits! youre just gonna have to look for a shelter! so charmmy bun is safe! lol no laws against owning them


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## MiniLopHop (Sep 25, 2012)

How wonderful! It's great they are protecting the animals like that, hopefully it will spread.

Here you have to have a permit for a chinchilla. I'm not sure why. I have to keep proof that I got my turtles from a rescue and they are not wild caught or I would need special permits for them.


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## whitelop (Sep 25, 2012)

You probably have to have a permit to own a chinchilla so they know you're not going to make a coat or gloves out of them! That would be my thought. 

Oh and today for some animal bs. My mom lives in an apartment complex with my grandma. The lady below them has a cat that she took in from the complex that someone left behind when they moved. As it turns out, there is a tom cat out there that my mom thought the lady was feeding. The woman's husband won't let her bring the tom cat in the house and the apartment doesn't want them to feed it. 
My mom said F that and she's feeding it. They want it to go away and starving it is clearly the answer to get the cat to go away. My mom won't stand for that, and won't watch it wither away to nothing. 
Its just a bunch of crap!


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## Imbrium (Sep 25, 2012)

that's horrible! I'd feed it anyway, too, like I do with my two strays that moved onto my property. how can you look at a scrawny cat and NOT go buy a bag of cat food?


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## MagPie (Sep 25, 2012)

Man my apartment complex did that to me too. I took over feeding the ferals after my neighbor moved and my apartment manager asked me to stop because they were leaving fleas behind. People were getting grossed out by the fleas. Oh like the million cigarette butts EVERY WHERE including in my plants isn't gross? Or the bed bugs that one neighbor brought home? Or the dog s*** that no one picks up but feels free to leave it outside my big bay window? Sorry haha That has been a big pain in my side for ages. That manager left so the dog poop and bed bugs were taking care of. Cigarette butts are still a little bit of an issue.


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## whitelop (Sep 26, 2012)

We used to live in this apartment where the neighbors downstairs used to throw their rib bones and their chicken bones out into the parking lot. My dogs would try to eat them. It was horrible.


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## MagPie (Sep 26, 2012)

Aaaah why do people do that? I have one neighbor who let their cat free roam and the cat has been using my one planter box as a litter box. I've been thinking of planting cacti in it. haha.


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## CharmmyBunny (Sep 26, 2012)

my biggest problem is when people get a pet and then after sometime just decide that they dont want it for whatever reason. i recently have had to deal with this. i understand when circumstance dont allow you to keep your pet and you exhaust all resources trying to keep them, but if you cant sometimes you cant. one of my friends had a dog that was a puppy not neutered and they never trained him. instead they complained that he was destructive and he would poop in the house and pee too chew things. but they never did anythign really to stop that behaviour or change it or even try to understand it and just gave him away.

my family does that alot too which is how i ended up with my snake they stopped carign for him and he has a sad story but hes better now and doing great! (he actually shed gain today ive had him for 2 years now) but they get an animal and then after the novelty wears off they try and give me the animal if i have room or the ability i take it but i cant have any dogs or cats. (we have a cat who has felv so we cant have any other cats we dont want it to be transmitted he was an outdoor cat and now he has to be indoor so he wont transmit the virus to any others. but he still tries to escape he really doesnt like being indoors but its best for him and everyone else) 

pets become part of your family and they are part of your family when you accept them into your home and heart they should be there forever.


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