# New REW Holland Lop Buck



## SilverBirchRabbitry (Jul 17, 2009)

This is Cadbury, he is a 7 week old Holland Lop. I don't really know how to judge Holland's. So I thought I would post a few pics :] I cannot pose Hollands lol So work with me here. My 4H leader bought him at an auction in hopes that him in and the rest of his litter was does. But only one actually was. So she told me since I love REW Hollands so she gave him to me 

Justlet me know if you think he would be a good "show" bunny or a nice breeding buck.

Here are the pics which took forever to upload lol


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## CKGS (Jul 17, 2009)

I don't know about any of that but I wanted to say- He is sooooooo darn cute!


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## SilverBirchRabbitry (Jul 17, 2009)

Aww thanks I really like him he is such a sweetheart  
I was holding him on my lap and he started cleaning his face, it was so cute.


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## CKGS (Jul 17, 2009)

I don't know what it is but I've always loved white rabbits. I think they are soo pretty (if clean). I've seen some that are almost yellow everywhere which looks horrible. Poor bunnies. 
Your little guy is just adorable and I'm sure when older will be gorgeous! Plus I just love little lop faces! I think they remind me of cute puppy dogs (hound dogs) with their long ears and somewhat sad faces. Awwww... who can say that isn't cute?


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jul 17, 2009)

Based on a show evaluation, he is not very well typed. He has a narrower head, very slipped crown, and longer, folded ears. He also looks narrow in the shoulder, a bit hippy, and pinched in the hindquarter. Because Holland Lops are so well developed and competitive already, I don't consider this buck to be breeding or show quality.

He is an adorable bunny though and I bet he'd make a fantastic pet- he looks so sweet! If you want to show him, maybe you can work with him on showmanship too.


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## SilverBirchRabbitry (Jul 17, 2009)

Thanks OakRidgeRabbits  He is only 7 weeks though, you don't think he needs more time to "grow"? 

I do want to breed him to one of my does eventually, just to see what he throws :]


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jul 17, 2009)

*SilverBirchRabbitry wrote: *


> Thanks OakRidgeRabbits  He is only 7 weeks though, you don't think he needs more time to "grow"?



Well, 7 weeks can be an awkward stage. So it is very possible that he will balance himself a little more as he matures. For example, his ears will still be on the long side, but they may not look as long when he's grown into himself.

However, growing up doesn't fix things like a slipped crown, narrowness, or pinched hindquarters. These are faults in body structure.

When breeding Hollands, you generally want the nicest buck you can find. You can give a bit on does, because sometimes even the most broody does make the best show babies. But generally if you use so-so bucks, you'll get so-so babies.


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## SilverBirchRabbitry (Jul 17, 2009)

Also I will post pics of Tessa & Firefly my other 2 Hollands  Just too see what everyone thinks 

Alright thanks OakRidge! Atleast you know what you are talking about lol Do you think he could still be shown? Even if he doesn't do that great lol


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jul 17, 2009)

P.S. Just want to point out that my evaluation is ONLY based on body type, based on the ARBA standard. I don't mean to talk down your new baby! He looks like a nice, loveable bunny! My comments are only on type. 

ETA: Yes, as long as he has no DQ's, he can still be shown.


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## SilverBirchRabbitry (Jul 17, 2009)

That is fine lol I asked for opinions on him and his type :] And that is what you gave me! It is good to know what experienced Holland breeders think 

As far as I can tell he has no DQ's, his toenails are all white, what else should I look for?


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## TinysMom (Jul 17, 2009)

You might want to show him once to get an opinion...but I wouldn't waste my money on showing him with those faults. I was waiting and hoping an HL breeder would post. I have had show quality ones but not taken them to shows as they were pets. However I did see what I thought were flaws but wasn't sure.

If you breed him (which I wouldn't do with those flaws) - I'm guessing you will probably only get pet quality rabbits...something to consider when it comes to rehoming them.

How old are your does? Have they had babies before?


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jul 17, 2009)

Make sure all the toenails are there and that they are all the same color. Check the teeth to make sure that they are all there and aligned properly. Holland Lops have a minimum show weight of 2 lbs. and a max of 4 lbs., so being outside of those weight limits is a DQ. Also, Holland Lops with too much ear control can be a DQ, at the discretion of the judge (this rabbit doesn't have that problem, but just an FYI). Also, the ears may not be more than 1 inch below the chin or they are too long.

So those are some things you want to look for. There are also DQ's based on color, but with a REW, there's not much to worry about!

Is this guy pedigreed? If not, you won't want to breed him to any color other than selfs unless you know what he's out of (which is how a pedigree would help).


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## BSAR (Jul 17, 2009)

Aww what a cutie! And how funny about his name because we have a REW Mini Rex named Cadbury!


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## SilverBirchRabbitry (Jul 17, 2009)

I'm actually considering changing his name to Tea


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## pamnock (Jul 17, 2009)

I agree that he's especially cute, although not good show type. Because his crown is slipped so far back, it makes his head appear even narrower. His ears are also too long. He's also very weak in the hindquarters. Due to all his faults, I wouldn't use him for breeding.

Pam


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## SilverBirchRabbitry (Jul 17, 2009)

I decided I will not show him, although I do want to breed him to one of my good show does. I love the color REW, they are kind of hard to find around here


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## Erins Rabbits (Jul 17, 2009)

You really shouldn't breed a buck with those faults. 
If you look hard enough, you can find NICE REWs. They are, admittedly, pretty and cool, but you shouldn't breed based on color, unless the type is there. And it's not. Also, do you have a ped on him? You won't want to bother unless he is. The pet market is small and it is rightfully looked down upon to soley 'see what he throws'.


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## SilverBirchRabbitry (Jul 17, 2009)

Yep he is fully pedigreed =D


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## TinysMom (Jul 18, 2009)

*SilverBirchRabbitry wrote: *


> I decided I will not show him, although I do want to breed him to one of my good show does. I love the color REW, they are kind of hard to find around here


I am assuming that you know that genetically ... you can only get REWs if both parents are REW or carry the REW gene (since it is recessive).

Also - I was thinking you said he was from an auction.....they give pedigrees at those? I've never heard of a breeder doing that as they usually don't want their rabbitry name going with the rabbit since it is basically a "culled" rabbit that they don't want in their herd because it isn't show quality or breeding quality.


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## SilverBirchRabbitry (Jul 18, 2009)

He comes from a rabbitry called Sand Hurst Rabbitry, (< that is what the rabbitry on his pedigree says) to be honest I have never heard of them :| But I have a doe that carries REW so it is all good


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## TinysMom (Jul 18, 2009)

How old is the doe? Has she had a litter before?


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## SilverBirchRabbitry (Jul 18, 2009)

My doe is currently 7 weeks :] So clearly she has not had a litter lol But I don't plan on breeding him to her until she is 7 months old :] I will be prepared, I know what I'm doing lol


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## TinysMom (Jul 18, 2009)

*SilverBirchRabbitry wrote:*


> I will be prepared, I know what I'm doing lol


I respectfully disagree with you on this - based on the things I've seen in your postings over the last few weeks - I have problems believing this. Since you are planning to breed a poor quality buck that those who are experienced have said shouldn't be bred - I want to address some of the choices you've made over the last few weeks.

I think I've seen you get four or five new rabbits. They're never based upon the quality of the rabbit (something a responsible and respectable breeder always looks for). Instead they seem to be based upon "cuteness". This is fine...for a pet rabbit. But a breeder needs to look beyond cuteness.

Sometimes I wonder what breed(s) you're working on....it seems like you have a little bit of this and a little bit of that. 

My concern is not only that you want to breed inferior quality rabbits - but that you are going to be spending your time AND your money on rabbits that are not show quality. Unfortunately - this will wind up being a WASTE of your time and money - as far as being a breeder goes. 

I understand that as a moderator - I can not "make" you do anything - they are your rabbits - and you will make the decisions about their care and breeding. I get that.

But I can not stand by and not say anything about your decision to breed a poor quality buck to a doe (that we have no idea of the quality of ... just to "see what you'll get" or "get REWs".

To me - that is the mentality of a "backyard breeder" - something we don't support and approve of on this forum. 

I probably sound like I'm coming down harsh - but the fact is - we have people reading this forum who are thinking about breeding. I would hate for them to read this thread and think we would encourage someone to breed an animal of poor quality in type, etc.

In addition - from what I understand - Holland Lops are one of the two breeds most susceptible to stuck kits - and to put a doe at risk when the buck is poor quality is just....unthinkable. 

:banghead

Part of what bothers me the most is that your 4H leader is helping in this. Why give someone a poor quality buck if they're wanting to show or breed? It would be better to encourage them to save their money and get a quality animal that would do well at the shows rather than something that will be laughed about behind the breeder's back. 

I'm not part of 4H (although I am considering leading the "pet rabbit" group here since no one is doing it). So I don't know the 4H rules for showing, etc.

But I am still amazed that your leader would encourage you in this foolishness by helping you acquire poor quality animals.

Anyway - I've said my piece for the archives so people will understand how RO feels about backyard breeding and breeding poor quality animals.

I'm not anti-breeding....I was a breeder for 3 years and may breed again in the future someday....

And I did make stupid choices at first...breeding colors that shouldn't go together, etc - but I learned after my first set of litters and I read and educated myself and learned from the forum and continued to learn.

I suggest you find a breeder near you who has rabbits that WIN on the tables and see if they'll mentor you on what to do - because they'll do a far better job than your leader who is providing you with these rabbits.


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## SilverBirchRabbitry (Jul 18, 2009)

I breed show quality French Angoras, we also raise champion English Angoras. We have been raising rabbits for 4 years now. 
We do get some rabbits because they are cute I'm going to admit that. We are serious about breeding our Angoras, very serious. We have produced many grand champions before we downsized. 
I plan on breeding this buck to one of my better quality does, I'm going to try it and see what happens. I post this to get thoughts on the rabbits, not to hear people lecture me about my breeding descions.
All of my rabbits are well taken care of and get ALOT of attantion. I'm not a backyard breeder in anyway. You totally insulted me.
My leader likes to try different things out she is a very nice lady, who breeds quality Netherlands. 
I'm soo sick of rabbit forums. Like honestly. I get talked to like I'm stupid and don't know anything. 

My 2 Flemmies are pets so yes I based them on their looks, my Jersey Woolie is also a pet. We have our 4 Hollands, of which come from very good breeders except the REW. My French & English Angoras are from top stock, and are amazing show rabbits. I'm not stupid when it comes to breeding, yes sometimes I don't make wise decisions or I like to test things but is that really a crime?


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## CKGS (Jul 18, 2009)

Kudos Peg.


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## SilverBirchRabbitry (Jul 18, 2009)

You know something I think I'm done with rabbit forums to be honest.


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## CKGS (Jul 18, 2009)

To me it is a crime when you are breeding pet quality animals and there are already sooo many in the shelters. Take a look at some of these threads where rabbits are being PTS because of lack of homes. Breeders who breed for the betterment of a breed don't breed pet quality animals to 'try' and produce show quality. BYBs often want to see what their dogs will produce or breed them because they are 'too cute'. 
I am very passionate about this subject after volunteering at shelters. I know what it is like to take an animal out of a cage and KNOW that this is the last time it will come out of this cage and the last time it will walk or be carried through that door! I carried a rabbit back to that door 2 years ago when I volunteered in an Ohio shelter. It was terrified! Because of people who breed indiscriminately the rabbits in shelters die.... This is the sad truth. I, for one, cannot live with that- this is why I don't breed. I LOVE my rabbits but also know enough to let those who have pedigreed animals within the standard for their breed, breed them. I do NOT wish to think I caused 1 rabbit to die because I wanted a certain color or because I think they are cute. There are many cute animals out there. 
And forgive me but how can you tell you have a 'better quality' doe if she is 7 weeks old?


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## TinysMom (Jul 18, 2009)

*SilverBirchRabbitry wrote: *


> I plan on breeding this buck to one of my better quality does, I'm going to try it and see what happens. I post this to get thoughts on the rabbits, not to hear people lecture me about my breeding descions.
> All of my rabbits are well taken care of and get ALOT of attantion. I'm not a backyard breeder in anyway. You totally insulted me.
> 
> I'm soo sick of rabbit forums. Like honestly. I get talked to like I'm stupid and don't know anything.
> ...


No - it is not a crime to make poor breeding decision - its a crime to do things like steal a rabbit or mistreat a rabbit.

You said you post to get thoughts on the rabbits...but then when you hear from experienced breeders with that breed - including one who is an ARBA judge and has bred Hollands for years and was a TOP breeder - and yet you decide to go against their advice of "do not breed this rabbit" - of course you're going to get follow-up questions trying to understand why you know more than the experts.

As far as being a backyard breeder - I'm sorry - but I feel like anyone who would knowingly breed a rabbit that will only produce more pet rabbits - is a backyard breeder. It is not a term that I use regularly - but you care more about the breeding than the life of your doe...as I pointed out - lops are more likely to have health risks.

Anyway - you've heard opinions from the experts which was what you wanted.


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## SilverBirchRabbitry (Jul 18, 2009)

Can you delete my account please Peg? I no longer want to be a member on here.


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## TinysMom (Jul 18, 2009)

We do not delete accounts here - you can simply leave and not come back and post....I think that was what you did as a couple of other rabbitry names.


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## NorthernAutumn (Jul 18, 2009)

Jackie, you asked for someone's honest opinion about your buck's breeding and show potential.

Everyone so far has indicated that you should not breed this buck "just to see", as it will undermine your efforts to create animals with good type.

Breeders breed for type and show qualities. This buck doesn't have either. Therefore, it is pointless to breed him.

Enjoy him as a pet.

Remember, you asked for folks' best advice, and they've given it honestly. It's up to you what you do with that advice now.

PamNock and TinysMom are highly respected breeders in the USA, and I value their opinions very much.


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## TinysMom (Jul 18, 2009)

*CKGS wrote: *


> And forgive me but how can you tell you have a 'better quality' doe if she is 7 weeks old?


By 7 weeks old - I can distinguish my pet quality rabbits. You can see the bad body type at that age - just like you can see on the buck pictured at the beginning of the thread. 

That's when I start watching the others in the litter to see how they develop. 

With the lionhead breed - I'm looking at the mane - the face (the long narrow faces don't do well anymore) - the color (as in - does it show the characteristics of that color or is it too dull or too bright) - and of course - the personality.

I've been known to sell a show quality rabbit to a pet owner at a pet price...because that lionhead was an ideal pet. Money didn't matter - matching that pet up with an owner did.


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## SilverBirchRabbitry (Jul 18, 2009)

I asked for advice on the rabbit in general not on breeding him. 
The fact is people don't have to be so harsh. I get the point. I won't breed the rabbit. But I'm still quitting on here. It has been nothing but hassles.


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## CKGS (Jul 18, 2009)

Peg, Thank you for clarifying that. I just thought maybe as the rabbit ages things change-body type etc...


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## NorthernAutumn (Jul 18, 2009)

A wise person once said...

"It would be foolish to give up this wonderful opportunity to learn more about rabbits and their care & breeding, for the sake of the opinions of a few people."

RO is an incredible resource of knowledge... I would hate for you to miss out.

** Your first post said: 
Justlet me know if you think he would be a good "show" bunny or a nice breeding buck.
(Everyone's been on topic, dear)


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## TinysMom (Jul 18, 2009)

*NorthernAutumn wrote: *


> PamNock and TinysMom are highly respected breeders in the USA, and I value their opinions very much.


Oh wow.....um...thanks?

I might've been a well-known (somewhat) breeder when I bred as I was on several lionhead lists and spent a lot of time and energy educating myself and learning from other breeders.

BUT...I'm no where near the level of PamNock - I'd have to breed for 50 years to even be half as knowledgeable as she is...in fact - Pam is the one I often went to in the beginning with my many questions. Her knowledge about genetics and type, etc is outstanding...we are so blessed to have her on this forum.

It is no secret that I'm out of breeding now....for several reasons. I can't bring myself to "cull" rabbits by putting them down...and I live in a small rural area - so not much call for show rabbits. Also, I got tired of feeling I was putting a doe's life at risk after one of my favorite does had some complications. 

Anyway - thanks for the compliment...I'm touched....


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## SilverBirchRabbitry (Jul 18, 2009)

I have had nothing but problems, people don't have to be so harsh. People on here are not stupid they can say things in nicer terms. 

:/


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## CKGS (Jul 18, 2009)

I think people get tired of saying things over and over again. I think they get tired of being asked questions to only be ignored. That would be my take.


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## TinysMom (Jul 18, 2009)

*CKGS wrote: *


> Peg, Thank you for clarifying that. I just thought maybe as the rabbit ages things change-body type etc...


I used to think that too until I bred about four or five litters and I started noticing that the rabbit that was really nice at 5 weeks was usually very nice at 12 weeks....

I used to explain to people once I could tell a decent lionhead from the nestbox.

If you hold out your hand in front of you and look at your pinkie...your thumb...and your middle finger - it might help you understand.

Lionheads need to have some width to them across the body...so if a rabbit was the size/shape of a pinkie...it wouldn't have good bone mass that I wanted.

If it was long like my middle finger - it was probably longer in the body - hence it might be brood quality but probably not show quality...(if it was a doe - if buck - it was a pet automatically).

If it was shaped in proportion like my thumb...then that was what I was looking for - a thick body (good bone mass) and a short body.

Sound crazy - but once you know your breed and the standards - and you've bred enough - you learn things like this.


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## NorthernAutumn (Jul 18, 2009)

I have a sense that folks try to be very honest, which comes across as harsh. No one in the thread has used foul language with you, or hurled pointless insults.
*
At this point, I think it would be best to leave this thread until tomorrow.* It is now 1 AM here for you and I, Jackie, and I think we should all sleep on it.

We'd all come back with fresher perspectives


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## SilverBirchRabbitry (Jul 18, 2009)

Thanks Autumn, but it isn't this thread I'm talking about. It is a few others but I think I'm done on here. Well bye everyone have a good sleep Autumn


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## CKGS (Jul 18, 2009)

That is very neat Peg. I call it a winning situation when I learn something new and this thread has done that. BTW- did you have a looksee at my new Lionhead baby? He sure is a cutie! But my God- I haven't owned a male that has 'everything' still in place before! If he were of the human species- I'd say he'd be mighty proud!


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## TinysMom (Jul 18, 2009)

I'll need to go look at your new baby....I haven't been reading as much lately.

The funny thing is - I bred lionheads (which are one of my favorite breeds) but I have to admit - my heart breed is flemmies....which I may actually breed someday...years from now...when my numbers go down.

Lionheads to me though are like little kids sometimes...so mischievious.


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## NorthernAutumn (Jul 18, 2009)

*Time for a new thread, girls*  Be sure to post pics there, Janet


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## CKGS (Jul 18, 2009)

Lol- thats why I have 2 lionheads now and my big calm Flemmie boy. Have you seen him yet? He is a doll. I can't say enough good things about him. My lionheads entertain me and he is my cuddly sweet big boy.. The best of both worlds with these 2 breeds.


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## CKGS (Jul 18, 2009)

Sorry Autumn


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## TinysMom (Jul 18, 2009)

*NorthernAutumn wrote: *


> *Time for a new thread, girls*  Be sure to post pics there, Janet



:brat::brat::brat:

Yes ma'am.....


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Jul 18, 2009)

Don't mean to jump in the boat so late, but I agree with Peg and Janet on everything they've said. 

I could tell right away from the 3rd picture of your boy that he probably isn't very good quality...just by the way he's sitting in that picture - and I don't even breed/never owned a Holland Lop  

Breeding shouldn't be about "seeing what happens". You say you're serious about breeding English/French Angoras, so why can't you be serious about breeding Hollands and get stock meant for Brood/Show that will give you better quality babies then what you'd get with the buck you currently have? 

I agree with Erin on the colour thing. You shouldn't breed just because you "like his colour". There are tons more rabbits out there with the same colour and better type. 

I breed purebred show/brood quality Mini Rex. The last litter we had has 4babies - 2 does, 2 bucks. 1 buck is pet quality. You would think that's really great that only one out of a litter like that is pet quality, but it does make you upset that you have a pet quality rabbit in a litter you want for show/brood. 


When you're breeding for show/brood quality, chances are you'll get more show/brood quality, but even the pet quality one makes you realize you need to up your game and add that little something that's missing to make it better. There should be no reason for breeding pet quality; of course there's the pet quality rabbitsyou're going to get out of your litter, but as long as your breeding to better the breed, you'll have better luck getting those great show/brood quality rabbits. 

Just my $.2 worth. 

And btw, Jackie, I really think you should stay. People may make you angry, but they're just trying to look out for your rabbits and help you make the right decisions. You will learn so much here and really be able to do well with your rabbits. I can't make this decision for you, but I hope you do think it over. 

You may have been breeding for 4 years, but amount of time doesn't matter when it comes to things like this. I've been breeding for 4 years too, and I'm still learning new things all the time, especially like choosing better stock, and producing better stock. Even breeders who've been breeding for longer sometimes don't pick the best stock, or the best choices, or produce the best stock. You have to learn how to do these things, and you can only do that with others' help. 

Emily


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## NorthernAutumn (Jul 18, 2009)

*BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote: *


> And btw, Jackie, I really think you should stay. People may make you angry, but they're just trying to look out for your rabbits and help you make the right decisions. You will learn so much here and really be able to do well with your rabbits. I can't make this decision for you, but I hope you do think it over.





> You may have been breeding for 4 years, but amount of time doesn't matter when it comes to things like this. I've been breeding for 4 years too, and I'm still learning new things all the time, especially like choosing better stock, and producing better stock. Even breeders who've been breeding for longer sometimes don't pick the best stock, or the best choices, or produce the best stock. You have to learn how to do these things, and you can only do that with others' help.
> 
> Emily


Great final post, Emily... let's all take some time now to breathe and contemplate the discussion


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