# (RIP) Chest Congestion, Possible Pneumonia or Heart Condition



## plasticbunny (Jul 30, 2011)

*IMMEDIATE INFORMATION: 


*
Description (Breed, color, weight): *Flemish Giant, 11 lbs
*Age: *8 months
*Sex: *F
*Concise Summary of the Rabbit's Condition: *A few days ago, I noticed that Molly had lost weight. Her vertibrae were becoming easy to feel and she felt lighter to pick up. I checked her teeth first, they were fine. I felt her jaw, it was fine. I did see her eating but am not sure how much as I've been working overtime the past week and haven't spent much time in the rabbit room. I do know it's not her usual amount. I had made an appointment for Tuesday at the vet, the earliest I could get in.*

*Today I noticed her making a noise partway between a sneeze and a honk. I also heard a congestion noise and when I put my ear to her side I could hear rumbling as she breathed. Her lower respiratory tract is obviously congested with fluid. I listened to her sinuses as well and they don't seem congested, and there's no discharge. My first thought was pneumonia; however, upon further research I'm leaning more towards Congestive Heart Failure.*

*From what I've read, CHF's first symptoms can be weight loss, loss of appetite, and tiredness, among others. Because of how the heart of a bunny with CHF works, blood can then pool in the lungs and cause lung congestion. She is young, but because she is a large breed I'm concerned she could be more prone to this.*

*With pneumonia, it seems that it is usually caused by an upper respiratory tract infection (which Molly did not have), which then progressed to a lower RTI. She is also not running a temperature at all, and she is not gasping, laboring to breathe, or tilting her head up. This is why I'm now doubting pneumonia.*

*Molly has a vet appointment with a different vet (the only exotic vet that's open Sundays) tomorrow morning. I'm praying she makes it through the night.*

*Any thoughts on what else it could be are welcome. Any advice is welcome. Prayers and best wishes are definately welcome.
*


*ADDITIONAL INFORMATION / CHECK LIST*: (Please fill in relevant info).

Fecal and Urinary Output

- are the bunny's poops and pees normal? *No. Peeing is occuring outside of the litter box. Poops are smaller andharder, so there is obvious dehydration. Output is the same.
*- when did they last use their litterbox? *Using regularly.
* - any unusual behavior? straining to pee? unusual litter habits? *Lazier, not lethargic or unresponsive, but laying around more.
* - what litter and/or bedding do you use? *Aspen litter, hardwood floor.
*
Medical History 

- spayed/neutered? *Yes.
* - has s/he been to the vet or been sick before?*Yes to the vet, No to sick.
* - is s/he on any medications? *No.
*
Diet 

- what specifically does your bunny eat? *Hay,pellets, safe veggies.
* - when and what did s/he eat last?*Not sure.
* - any changes in the way s/he eats? (ie: not eating a particular food, odd chewing motions, etc) *I haven't seen her eat pellets in a few days, though my boyfriend has. Decreased appetite regardless.

*
Other

- movement - any unusual movements? Is s/he hopping normally?* Resting a lot.
* - is the rabbit molting?* No.
* - any weight loss? *Yes.
* - any sign of drooling? wet face? *No.
* - runny eyes? *No.
* - wet nose? coughing? sneezing?*Sneezing slightly, but no discharge.
* - is s/he breathing normally? *Breath is not labored and no blue tint on lips/nose/gums. Has obvious congestion in lower respiratory tract.

*Additional

- any plants, chocolate or other substances within reach? * No.
* - has the rabbit been outdoors?* No.
* - any other pets? if so, have they been ill? *Yes to pets, no to ill.
*


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## naturestee (Jul 30, 2011)

From what I can tell from your information, pneumonia or congestive heart failure may be the most likely diagnoses. There's really no way to tell what is causing fluid in lungs without a vet exam, including an x-ray. I'm hoping for pneumonia because it is more treatable. Congestive heart failure can sometimes be managed with diuretics. I'm really glad you could find an appointment for tomorrow instead of waiting till Monday. Hopefully the vet is good with rabbits and will figure everything out.

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Cardiology/Failure/congestive.htm


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## plasticbunny (Jul 30, 2011)

I hope so, too, but I'm preparing for the worst. I can't believe how suddenly this came along. :cry2


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## Maureen Las (Jul 30, 2011)

*naturestee wrote: *


> From what I can tell from your information, pneumonia or congestive heart failure may be the most likely diagnoses. There's really no way to tell what is causing fluid in lungs without a vet exam, including an x-ray. I'm hoping for pneumonia because it is more treatable. Congestive heart failure can sometimes be managed with diuretics. I'm really glad you could find an appointment for tomorrow instead of waiting till Monday. Hopefully the vet is good with rabbits and will figure everything out.
> 
> http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Cardiology/Failure/congestive.htm



I agree with Angela. (naturestee).

My bunny, Babette, developed a lower respiratory infection very suddenly wth some labored breathing and a terrible loud cough/sneeze that sounded like a human clearing their throat. She also had a temp/ She responded immediately to antibiotics and although she was initally on baytril it did work effectively the first couple of times that it was prescribed, however the same infection kep returning. 
I have never personally had a bun with congestive heart failure but it sounds like this could also could be a possibility


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## TinysMom (Jul 31, 2011)

I don't have the answer for you - based on the symptoms I'm leaning more towards the heart problem but I'd rather see it be something that can be treated with pneumonia.

What time is your appointment on Sunday? I'll definitely be praying - but if I know what time the appointment is I won't have to check in every 15 minutes or so for an update.


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## jeanluc_pippen_merry (Jul 31, 2011)

I hope that everything turns out alright for Molly. Very sad to hear, she is in my thoughts.

ink iris:


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## plasticbunny (Jul 31, 2011)

Thank you, everyone.

Molly is still alive but I can tell she is worsening. Her ears ar starting to get a bit warmer and she hasn't moved from the same spot or the same sitting position all night. I picked her up and she didn't fight me at all... I have never missed having the air knocked out of me by a giant Flemish kick before. I've managed to get a few hours of sleep and that's all I can hope for right now.

I have all sorts of thoughts running through my head. If it does prove to be congestive heart failure, I'm not sure what I will do. If she's able to live a normal happy life on medication than I will do that, but if there's a chance she'll be suffering... Well, I just don't know. I don't know what the right thing to do is. :cry4:

This is very unexpected and I'm alternating between "oh, she'll be fine, I'll just give her some pills everday and it will all work out" and "I'm going to lose my rabbit today".

Her appointment is at 10 am EST (now Peg doesn't have to spend her entire day on here, though you know you will anyway, Peg, lol). Everyone's best wishes. I will update when I can.


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## jeanluc_pippen_merry (Jul 31, 2011)

Just 2hrs to go (i think?). Hang in there.


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## Kipcha (Jul 31, 2011)

Although I do not have any advice I can give, I really hope that Molly makes it through this alright. From what I've heard on hear, she's got spunk and spirit, she seems like a fighter.

Waiting to hear from the vet visit. Sending good, healing thoughts...


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## Brittany85 (Jul 31, 2011)

Oh Erin I'm so sorry! She will be in my prayers and hopefully it is a treatable thing. Keep us updated


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## TinysMom (Jul 31, 2011)

I'm on my way out the door to church - so I won't be back till about 1 pm CST....its gonna drive me crazy not knowing but I can't skip church for this.

I'm praying for you and for her....I really REALLY do not want to see the forum lose another flemmie...I just adore her.

I'll be checking this thread the minute I walk back in the door.


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## plasticbunny (Jul 31, 2011)

It's pneumonia!!!

inkbouce::weee:inkbouce::weee:inkbouce::weee:inkbouce:

Wow, I never thought I'd be excited for my rabbit to have pneumonia, lol.

There are MANY things to share, but you'll all have to wait a few more hours because I'm going to go take a NAP!

Thank you all for your support, it means so much. Molly would say thank you but she kinda mad at me for letting her get poked and isn't saying much right now. So I will thank you all on her behalf :biggrin:


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## gmas rabbit (Jul 31, 2011)

Thank goodness, we were all so worried about her. I wonder if the heat brought it on. Get so rest, pet and hug her, maybe she will give you one of those big flemish kicks in a day or so. May sure you give her some probiotics of some sort so that her gut doesn't shut down from the antibiotics. I am so, so relieved.


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## TinysMom (Jul 31, 2011)

I'm so happy - I just walked in the door and checked on this.


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## Brittany85 (Jul 31, 2011)

Yay that is good news, hopefully she will make a quick recovery. How is pneumonia treated in rabbits?


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## naturestee (Jul 31, 2011)

Yay for pneuomonia!:biggrin2:


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## plasticbunny (Jul 31, 2011)

Yay!

The vet listened to her heart and said that it was very strong, and was functioning normally. She did,'t even need an xray, so that saved me a bundle 

He said it was pneumonia, but that I caught it early so with aggressive treatment she should recover easily. Her ears and upper respiratory tract are clear. His thoughts are that it was likely caused by Pasturella, but I find that odd that she never showed signs of URI first? Doesn't Pasturella live in the sinuses and cause URI that can then escalate to LRI? I suppose it's also possible that she inhaled a fleck of dust or something as well.

So, she's on Doxycycline andBaytril to treat the infection, and Florentero to restore intestinal bacteria (thanks for the imput, Brittany!). She's also on Metacam for her bronchial inflammation.

She hasn't eaten or drank as far as I've seen since yesterday, so I asked for some Critical Care and he had no idea what that was. So, we're syringing pumpkin which she really hates . Later I'll syringe her some cilantro and pellets, and she may like that better. Her medicine is strawberry flavoured, though, which she didn't seem to mind. I also got a large bag of sub-Q fluids and I'm to give her 50 mLs 2 times a day. Can you believe she fights the syringe worse than that?

I asked about a nebulizer and he said I could try it but because her pneumonia wasn't advanced it wasn't necessary.

Gus didn't have an issue with her smell when I put her back in the room with him. I'm letting them run around together now because I want her gut to stay active, But I'll put her away in a dog crate tonight so I can moniter her eating/drinking/poops. So far her urine has lightened in color so I'm sur she's becomming hydrated again.

Will post with updates in a few. Thank you again for all your well wishes! :biggrin:


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## naturestee (Jul 31, 2011)

That sounds fantastic. Here's to an uneventful recovery!


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## gmas rabbit (Jul 31, 2011)

Critical care you get from the pet store, it is by Oxbow. You can google stores that carry it in your area. She does sound like she is improving. I am so glad. Ben is a giant breed too, so relate to the worry about the heart. I think with these guys as in humans, exercise is the answer to avoiding problems. Pets to Molly.


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## funnybunnymummy (Jul 31, 2011)

Oh, thank goodness it's just pneumonia and you caught it early! Get better soon, Molly!

Rue


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## plasticbunny (Jul 31, 2011)

She's doing well, just very quiet and hiding under the couch. I mixed her a mush out of pellets, pumpkin and parsley, and she seemed to tolerate having that syringed to her more than the pumpkin alone. Before bed she'll get her meds and another feeding and hopefully there will be many many poops in her crate tomorrow morning!

Praying for poop :litterhealthy:


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## plasticbunny (Aug 1, 2011)

Oh, not so good news. I administered Molly's meds tonight, and she did not enjoy it. In fact, she got all worked up but she couldn't get enough oxygen and ended up sitting in a corner, gasping for air. At one point I thought she was actually suffocating and I moved her towards me and she felt slightly limp. I thought she was about to leave us 

Now she is resting in her crate by herself, where I hope she can relax and get some rest. At this point I'm not even sure she'll make it through the night. My boyfriend is calling around trying to find a 24 hour pharmacy so we can buy the nebulizer the vet said we didn't need. I'm assuming I can use it with just water, I don't need any medication?


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## TinysMom (Aug 1, 2011)

I've used this before with rabbits and need to find it again to have it ready (and get more of the little things you put in it).

If you can't find a vet - this might be a reasonably priced option if you have a 24 hour pharmacy or Walmart or something.


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## plasticbunny (Aug 1, 2011)

Thanks Peg, I'll definately try that. None of the 24 hour parmacies/Walmarts carry nebulizers, and said we'd have to go to a medical supply store, which of course wasn't open at one in the morning :rollseyes. And today is a holiday, so nothing is open.

The good news is she's still with us. Bad news is she's the same as last night. I'm actually dreading giving her her meds, for fear that she'll panic again. And I'll have to syringe her some food to take with the metacam, so there's 5 things to syringe now. Oh, dear.


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## naturestee (Aug 1, 2011)

Will she eat canned pumpkin on her own? I've hidden meds in that before. Or applesauce and such. 

You can "make" a temporary humidifier by just putting Molly in the bathroom with you when you take a shower. 

Actually, you could also ask your vet about borrowing a nebulizer and giving her the antibiotics through that. It essentially makes the animal breathe in the medication, so it goes directly into the lungs. My local humane society uses one all the time with sick cats because it's very effective.


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## plasticbunny (Aug 1, 2011)

No, she won't eat anything on her own. And she really hates the pumpkin so thats a big no.

Oh, my poor girl. I wanted to try the shower, but do you think she'll get chilled afterwards?


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## naturestee (Aug 1, 2011)

Since she's just in the steamy bathroom, not actually getting wet, she should be fine. I've done it with cats and my baby daughter to help them breathe when they were sick.

I just remembered that there is more information about nebulizers in our Library:
http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=16807&forum_id=10

If the steam helps her breathe a little easier, maybe give her the medications afterwards while she's still breathing well.


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## plasticbunny (Aug 1, 2011)

Well, I gave her the medicine while you were responding, so I'll give that a try tonight. She didn't do quite as badly as last night but she spit out a lot of antibiotic . Hope that doesn't ruin the whole dose. She did give me foot flicks when she hoped away so that was good to see!

I only managed to get maybe a teaspoon of puree into her with her Matacam but it's better than nothing.


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## gmas rabbit (Aug 1, 2011)

tempt her with anything that she will eat, banana, dry whole grain bread, dandelions from the produce store if you don't have them, alfalfa hay for now, broad leaf endive, romaine lettuce, clover anything that will help get something into that gut. Antiobtics will make her feel nauseated if you don't.


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## Maureen Las (Aug 1, 2011)

Is the medication liquid ? is it flavored. ?


We have a compounding pharmacy here with a pharmacist who takes the prescription and compounds the meds into a liquidwith a flavor that the animal likes ..

makes it easy to give meds


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## plasticbunny (Aug 1, 2011)

I promise you, she will not eat anything. I have tried EVERYTHING.

What are the odds of her not making it through this??? Her breathing is not getting better, it's worse since she saw the vet yesterday.


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## pamnock (Aug 1, 2011)

Nutri Cal for dogs/cats is an excellent way to get in a lot of calories in a small amount- with less stress than supplements such as Critical Care. It'll help give her the extra energy boost she needs to recover.


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## plasticbunny (Aug 1, 2011)

Do you know where I can get that? What about Kitten Milk Replacer?


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## TinysMom (Aug 1, 2011)

You don't need KMR - that is for young bunnies that need milk....you could use Pedialyte for drinking and the Nutrical has calories too (it is in the pet section).


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## TinysMom (Aug 1, 2011)

The humidifier thing I sent you a link to - I bought in Walmart. I have also bought Nutrical in the pet section (I think I got it at Walmart) and I buy the pedialyte in the baby food section. 

As you know, in spite of any sugars in it - I'm a big big big proponent of banana baby food - especially if it is Beechnut's Chiquita banana. I open that up and bunnies come running and hope it is for them.

Perhaps try mixing that with her med to get her to take her med?


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## TinysMom (Aug 1, 2011)

I just got off the phone with Erin. Molly passed away a few minutes ago on her way to the vet. She got worse throughout the day.

I will let Erin provide more details if she wishes when she is up to it - and I will link to the Rainbow Bridge thread if she starts one later on.


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## naturestee (Aug 1, 2011)

She was so young.:bigtears:


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## jeanluc_pippen_merry (Aug 1, 2011)

So, so sorry to hear about Molly. :tears2:


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## gmas rabbit (Aug 1, 2011)

I have been watching Molly all weekend, when she was diagnosed with pneumonia we all thought that there was hope. I am so,so sorry Erin for your lose. She was still a baby. Man some times life is really hard and harsh. Hugs and prayers from Benjamin and me. I wish I could give all of you that have had such a lousey weekend with your little loved ones a hug in person, but we are with you.


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## Pipp (Aug 2, 2011)

Very, very sorry, Erin.  

I'd actually guess that it was viral pneumonia and I don't think anything could have saved her. 

Viral pneumonia is there but symptom-free for a couple of weeks, by then by the time the symptoms do show up, like weight loss and congestion, it's beyond life-threatening. 

Even if miraculously caught early, aggressive antibiotics wouldn't have helped. Nothing really would have, it was up to her body's ability to fight it.

You took such good care of her. It was just bad luck. 

:rip: Molly. 


sas :sad:

PS: I edited out the reference to it not being bacterial, because viral pneumonia can lead to bacterial pneumonia.


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## Bunnylova4eva (Aug 2, 2011)

Soo sorry about little Molly. Its so difficult losing a bunny. 
R.i.p. Molly, and Binky Free!


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## Maureen Las (Aug 2, 2011)

RIP Molly 
I am sorry to hear here this :hug:

you did everything possible for her ....


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## Kipcha (Aug 2, 2011)

I am so, so sorry to hear about Molly, she was such an awesome bunny. I know how much you loved her and I'm sure she knew it too. Binky free, Molly...


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## Jenk (Aug 2, 2011)

Erin, 

I am so very sorry for your loss. :cry2 :hug2:

We may be losing Zoe tomorrow; you are _not_ alone. I will try to take solace in the thought that our girls could meet up and run together through endless fields of clover. :rainbow::rose:


With much love and more :hug2:,

Jenk


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## pamnock (Aug 2, 2011)

I'm so very sorry to hear that you lost her . . .


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## plasticbunny (Aug 2, 2011)

OK, I guess I'm ready to do this...

Molly's situation quickly declined since her vet visit on Sunday. No rabbit veterinarians were open yesterday so we couldn't bring her in for more treatment. She wouldn't take her meds because the feeling of having something in her mouth made her suffocate. She didn't even notice when I administered her sub-Q fluids. By last night, she was mouth breathing (like a fish) most of the time and going through moments where she couldn't breathe and would panic and race around in circles. I had purchased a humidifier yesterday and set her up in the bathroom with it, which she seemed to enjoy for a short time, but it was no use. Molly was suffering terribly and I decided that I couldn't let her go through any more of this.

I kissed Molly goodbye and packed her into her traveller. My boyfriend left with her (I didn't want to go for this trip). Five minutes later, Rob called to tell me that Molly did not make it to the vet.

It is not so much that Molly is gone, as how she left that is so distressing. She suffered terribley and eventually drown in her sickness. I am struggling with the immense guilt of not having her euthanized sooner. Though if I had, I'm sure I'd be wondering if I had made the right choice, or if she had a chance of living. Well, hindsight is 20-20.

I can only hope that Molly's fate serves to help educate others on the signs and symptoms of pneumonia, so that other bunnies can have faster, more efficient treatment, or at least a quicker end. I am pleased to see that Pipp has added a pneumonia section to the library and I encourage all to read it.

Thank you to everyone who has responded throughout this thread with ideas and suggestions, as well as all of the encouragment, prayers, and well wishes. Thank you all for the kind words after hearing of Molly's passing. And a very special thank you to Tinysmom, who not only made the announcement here when I was not able to, but also spoke with me on the phone as I learned of Molly's passing, and joined me in tears over the loss of a truely gentle giant.


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## gmas rabbit (Aug 2, 2011)

Erin - you are right 20/20 is always easier. If you had her put down earlier the guilt would have consumed you wondering if you gave her every chance. She knew that you were there loving her to the last moment. Her and Zoe are doing binkies together, no longer in distress.


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## Jenk (Aug 2, 2011)

*gmas rabbit wrote: *


> Her and Zoe are doing binkies together, no longer in distress.


I believe 100% that they will be the fastest of friends. :bunnyhug: And they now are both in very good hands--first only to our own. :hug2:


Jenk


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## Bunnylova4eva (Aug 2, 2011)

^^ agreed. If you didn't feel ready to put her down, then that wasn't her time. You have to do what you feel is right, and don't blame yourself. You couldn't have known how it would end up, and you would have beat yourself up later thinking maybe you could have tried something else. 
r.i.p. Molly - Say hi to Jelly for me if you see her over there doing her binkys!


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## pumpkinandwhiskersmom (Aug 2, 2011)

So sorry to hear of your loss! She was a beautiful girl...gone too soon. You and your bf will be in our thoughts and prayers.


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## mistyjr (Aug 2, 2011)

Im sorry for your loss! ray:


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## plasticbunny (Aug 3, 2011)

Thank you, everyone


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## CCWelch (Aug 7, 2011)

I am actually surprised that the vet gave a bunny with pneumonia oral meds.
I am really sorry for your loss, I hope my bunny with pneumonia makes it, she seems better but she is on Pen-G injected once daily at a very high dosage (about 10X the recommended amount for her body weight)and I am trained to give shots and all the other fun stuff bunnies need.


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## CB Millicent (Aug 8, 2011)

I'm so sorry for your loss. Hindsight really is 20/20 and I think you did the right thing. Binky free, Molly!


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## Nancy McClelland (Aug 8, 2011)

We're so sorry for your loss.


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## Must_Love_Pets (Aug 8, 2011)

As one Flemish owner to another, I am so sorry. I completely lost it when I read this thread. I have not been on all weekend due to my Flemish becoming ill as well and have been providing around the clock care and observation so I just read it. I cannot stop crying for you and Molly. What a traumatizing exp. for the all of you. My heart and prayers are with you durring this difficult time. Molly will be deaply missed. She was a well loved bunny.

:bigtears:

Binky free baby girl:bunnyangel2:


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## plasticbunny (Aug 8, 2011)

Thank you so much, everyone. :hearts


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