# cage space requirement



## koolaidsmiiles (Dec 5, 2013)

I live in a 2bd apartment with not much space. What is the min cage requirement size for a Holland lop? Also how much out side time does he need?


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## Kipcha (Dec 5, 2013)

I always think the bigger the better, but if you have a small space you could just get a smaller cage/x-pen (If you buy one of those pet store cages I would not go for anything smaller then the XL size, some of them are disgustingly small) and just let him out more often. Again, the more often you let them out the better, but they should be out for at least a couple hours. But if he can't get out often, he needs a bigger cage.


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## Imbrium (Dec 5, 2013)

A single rabbit or pair of rabbits needs *either* 24/7 access to 60+ square feet of space (a "run" area attached to their cage with playpens, for example) OR at least 4-5h outside the cage each day. Bigger is always better with cages unless they're free-range all the time (like a house cat), though the more time they spend out, the more you can scrimp on cage space.

An important thing to consider is that rabbits are most active around dusk and dawn - they don't sleep all night like most people do. Mine are usually awake and often bouncing off the walls at 3 am, to the point that they seem almost as nocturnal as my sugar gliders sometimes. In other words, if you cage your rabbit at night, you don't want him to be bored and destructive in a small cage.

While there's not a "minimum cage size" per se, ALL store-bought rabbit cages are way too small. Most people who want a cage build one themselves with storage cube grids (aka a "NIC condo" or "C&C cage"); some opt to convert a large dog crate or just fence off an area with pens.

I also live in a 2bd apartment... we've sacrificed a large portion of the living room to fence off a run for my rabbits, but that's not practical for most people. We tried free-ranging them, but they bullied the heck out of the cats, peed on ALL of the cats things, ate the cat food, camped out in the cat box (I use pine pellets in it just to be safe, since almost all cat litters are unsafe for bunns), etc. Our poor cats hid out in the master bedroom most of the time, helpless in the face of an evil little lionhead and her Holland lop side-kick. Since space is a concern for you, I'd recommend a NIC condo that focuses on height to get extra space. If you bunny-proof and litter box train, you can let him out for a few hours a day to avoid having to fence off a 60+ square foot area.

Here's the first NIC condo I built - it's 2 grids wide x 3 long x 5 high, so it only has a "footprint" of 28'' x 42'':







(I didn't have direct access between the first and second floors in that condo because they were never locked in it - obviously you'd need to leave a grid out so your bunny could jump up if the cage were going to be closed)

You can build a cage like that for around $110-$130. With grids on the bottom floor for added stability, which I did with that condo, it would require four boxes of 23 grids; however, I built a 2 wide x 4 long x 5 high condo at my boyfriend's apartment (I'm living at his apartment for a year while he finishes school and then we'll move back to my house 3h away) and I did NOT line the bottom floor with grids yet it's still plenty sturdy. Not using those six extra grids would let you eke by on three boxes of grids for a 2x3x5, saving you around $22.

cage info:
http://breyfamily.net/bunnycage.html
http://www.guineapigcages.com/cubes.htm (shows how to do coroplast floors if you'd rather use that than plywood)
best deal on grids for the cages: http://www.sears.com/stor-floor-sta...p-00913332000P?prdNo=1&blockNo=1&blockType=G1 (do site-to-store for free shipping if they aren't stocked at your local sears)

I prefer coroplast (corrugated cardboard) for my floors, as it's cheaper than plywood and can be cut with a $1 pair of box cutters. Most Home Depots sell a 3'x6' sheet for around $14, which is the cheapest I've seen.

Also, dowels can really help add some stability to a big cage (they stop the floors from sagging) - Home Depot charges $3-4 each for dowels, which is a rip-off. You can find 3' long dowels in a large enough diameter for cage support at Hobby Lobby for under $1 each.

Home Depot (or Lowe's, etc.) is also not the place to buy zip-ties. HD is like $5 for 100 of the 4'' ties and $18 or so for 1,000. If you're lucky, you can find some in a dollar store (Dollar Tree, for example) that are $1 for 100. Failing that, you can find way better deals online than at hardware stores - for example, I sell 500 for $3.80-4.05 (natural is cheaper than black for some reason) on my website; shipping for just the zip-ties wouldn't be more than about $2.

If you dig around with the search option on the forums, you can find lots of pictures of different condo and DIY cage designs - everyone does theirs a little bit different . Here's a good thread; I think there might be a new/2013 version of the thread as well.


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## Imbrium (Dec 5, 2013)

GEEZ, you can only edit for FIVE MINUTES?? I thought we got that fixed to something reasonable like 20-30 mins ages ago... did I miss a big change while I was AWOL? ><

Anyway, what I was trying to edit it about was the forum's refusal to let me put a decent-sized photo (even after resizing it to something moderate). If you want to see a bigger picture, you can visit the Photobucket link.


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## koolaidsmiiles (Dec 5, 2013)

Imbrium said:


> A single rabbit or pair of rabbits needs *either* 24/7 access to 60+ square feet of space (a "run" area attached to their cage with playpens, for example) OR at least 4-5h outside the cage each day. Bigger is always better with cages unless they're free-range all the time (like a house cat), though the more time they spend out, the more you can scrimp on cage space.
> 
> An important thing to consider is that rabbits are most active around dusk and dawn - they don't sleep all night like most people do. Mine are usually awake and often bouncing off the walls at 3 am, to the point that they seem almost as nocturnal as my sugar gliders sometimes. In other words, if you cage your rabbit at night, you don't want him to be bored and destructive in a small cage.
> 
> ...



Thank you that was very informative, how many levels would you recommend for 1 holland lop?


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## selbert (Dec 5, 2013)

The RSPCA guidelines for cage size is 6ft x 4ft. But Holland lops are particularly small so I think you could go a little smaller, much smaller if the buns have plenty of outside time. 
The recommended time rabbits should have outside the cage is 3 hours a day, but if the cage is big enough then I'm sure you could lessen that. 
I got my cage from Amazon for £23! However I have remade the cage, as it came in grids, with a few zip locks. You can be incredibly creative and can buy corner levels and all sorts for more fun!


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## selbert (Dec 5, 2013)

Oh I should've mentioned that rabbit cages from pet stores are always too small and I bought a pen online, I'll try find it... 

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004I56WU0/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20


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## Imbrium (Dec 5, 2013)

One bunny needs just as much space as two - you've gotta remember, they don't have an exercise wheel like most smaller "cage animals" do... and they don't rearrange their schedules to get all of their running around crammed into the block of time you set aside to let them out.

I recommend as many levels as you can reasonably fit into your budget while keeping the highest level no higher than 3-4 grids off the ground (so you can get in there to fetch a bunn or clean up their mess easily)... if you're looking for something less vague and open-ended, then I recommend a minimum of 2 wide x 3 long x 3-4 high (with three levels) for a Holland that spends hours at a time in the cage. Hollands are small and can stretch up decently high on a level that's one grid high, but it's good to have at least one that's 2 tall so they can stand up all the way. You could also do a 3 x 3 base if you could spare a 42'' square of floor space for the cage to sit in.

If you wanted a cheaper option and were willing to give up a little more floor space, you could eke out a 2 wide x 4 long x 2 high condo with a partial second level with two boxes of grids (if you don't do grids on the ground level floor) for around $60 - more side-to-side running around space will make up for not having much in the way of levels. Honestly, I really feel the 4 grid long condos are better from a bunny perspective (in terms of how much exercise they can get while caged)... but that would be 56'' (or 4' 8'') long and depending on how much furniture and other stuff you've got (and your floor plan), that could be rather big in an apartment.

Also, I forgot to include a link for you earlier - here's a great bunny-proofing guide so you can keep your bunny (and your things) safe during his "out" time .


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## Imbrium (Dec 5, 2013)

selbert said:


> Oh I should've mentioned that rabbit cages from pet stores are always too small and I bought a pen online, I'll try find it...
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004I56WU0/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20



That's a nice one! The cover isn't needed indoors unless you have nosy cats who like to jump, but that price is very good for that size enclosure even not taking the lid into account (since you'd almost certainly have to go with something higher than 24'' without the cover). The only downside is that you'd have a heck of a time getting into the pen with the rabbit(s).

Out of curiosity, can you customize it at all? For example, could you leave one ceiling panel off, allowing you to add to it with NIC grids to make a second level (obviously with a half-way step so the rabbit could get up there)?


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## Imbrium (Dec 5, 2013)

Here's my new condo - I finally took a picture, hehe:






(Full size image can be viewed here)

_[Ok, apparently the image doesn't want to show up... odd, since I've been posting pics all day without issue ><]_

Please ignore the horrible mess - I swear, I cleaned it all out just a few days ago... and they promptly uncleaned it. Also, ignore the shopping card full of cardboard that's making the bunny pen its temporary home - I ran out of space to put it elsewhere and they can run under it so it's not like it takes space away from them (ditto for the cheap little baby crib you can see a corner of in the bottom right - I found it and use it to ghetto-rig a sawhorse set-up when I need to) .

While you're at it, ignore how chewed up the coroplast is and the permanent pee stains (as soon as I clean it, they pee it up again just to make sure it's ruined for everyone but them). I'm dragging my feet about replacing the coroplast, since the new stuff will look just like this again in a matter of months.

And yes, that IS a ginormous slinky in front of the cage!


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## Blue eyes (Dec 5, 2013)

I just wanted to point out to the OP that when you are designing your NIC, be sure to allow for headroom in some areas of the cage. You can see how Jennifer did this in the above photo and also on my pics too. This is so bunny can fully stretch upward without bumping their head above. 

You can also use other flooring options on different levels of the cage. You can have a variety. So, if you do decide to use coroplast on all levels, you could still place a piece of carpet on one level (if not carpet chewers) and a clipped piece of fleece or other fabric on another level (on top of the coro). I've even used foam memory bath mats. Any option needs to be tested by your own bunny. Some will chew what others won't. It's just nice for them to have some options for whatever mood strikes them. 

Come to think of it, if you use a scrap of carpet on one level, it could be placed directly on the grids. Coro doesn't have to go under that. I just put the carpet right on the grids. 

I really like the 2 x 4 size for a NIC -- no matter how many levels it has.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Dec 5, 2013)

koolaidsmiiles said:


> I live in a 2bd apartment with not much space. What is the min cage requirement size for a Holland lop? Also how much out side time does he need?



My Holland Lops live in 24"x24" cages, which is large enough for an average 3-4 lb. Holland. Especially if you're factoring in out-of-cage playtime. With a non-dwarf Holland, I would recommend 30"x24".


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## koolaidsmiiles (Dec 5, 2013)

OakRidgeRabbits said:


> My Holland Lops live in 24"x24" cages, which is large enough for an average 3-4 lb. Holland. Especially if you're factoring in out-of-cage playtime. With a non-dwarf Holland, I would recommend 30"x24".



I was also told 24 x 24 for a Holland lop by the breeder


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## Watermelons (Dec 5, 2013)

There is a major difference between breeder standards and pet/rescue/welfare standards.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Dec 5, 2013)

Watermelons said:


> There is a major difference between breeder standards and pet/rescue/welfare standards.



Sometimes it's difficult to read responses online and get the right emphasis or feeling, but this comment came across to me as though your feeling is that breeders justify lesser or inadequate conditions for their rabbits.

If that is not what you intended, I apologize for the miscommunication.

I do raise rabbits, but can assure you that everything I do with and for them are with their best interest in mind. I am physically and emotionally invested in their well-being and have as much concern for and attention to the welfare of my animals as those who own pets or help in rescue. The housing/diet/etc I practice is not based on the number of rabbits I own or their "purpose." It's simply what I have experience with and feel is best for them.

I respect and appreciate the opportunity for all of us to share our different ideas and opinions. There are many on this post that vary from my own, and that's okay. However, I'd ask that we don't turn it into a separation between the breeding and pet communities. We all have the same investment in providing the best for our rabbits.


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## Imbrium (Dec 5, 2013)

At the same time, it could be argued that "bigger is always better" where house bunnies are concerned. We definitely shouldn't criticize or condemn breeders, as the ones who post on RO are all responsible ones who take excellent care of their rabbits... but all the same, popular opinion regarding house bunnies is that they need a lot more than four square feet of space.

Imo, "breeder standards" differ from "pet standards" not because breeders don't believe their rabbits deserve the same quality of care as pets (in fact, the good breeders DO) but because breeding and show rabbits have a different lifestyle than house rabbits.

There's a reason house bunnies get a very limited pellet diet with lots of hay and should have pellets that are fairly low in protein, yet those who show and breed rabbits may feed little or no hay and typically opt for a higher protein pellet... by the same token, there are reasons why good breeders will choose smaller cage sizes than we recommend for pets. *It has nothing to do with the quality of the care being given and everything to do with house rabbits and breeding/show rabbits having different needs.* Both types of owners do their absolute best to address their bunnies' needs and provide them with ideal care, but what's right for one group simply isn't always right for the other - meaning "ideal" is defined differently for breeders/showers than it is for pet owners.


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## RabbitGirl101 (Dec 5, 2013)

OakRidgeRabbits said:


> Sometimes it's difficult to read responses online and get the right emphasis or feeling, but this comment came across to me as though your feeling is that breeders justify lesser or inadequate conditions for their rabbits.
> 
> If that is not what you intended, I apologize for the miscommunication.
> 
> ...



I couldn't agree more with you. Rabbit healthiness and well-being is always the first thing I think of with my rabbits (aka my babies) I house my Holland lops in 24 x 24 inch cages, young, just-weaned, juniors are housed in 18 x 24 inch cages. 

Animal welfare for the USA requires the cage to be at a minimum of 9 x9 inches per pound of rabbit. (overall 81 square inches). So anything above the limit is fine, depends on what you personally feel works best for your bun

**I personally agree with OakRidgeRabbits, those are usually the cage sizes that I recommend.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Dec 5, 2013)

Imbrium, I tend to agree with what you're saying. Probably what got me was the use of the word welfare in relation to pets/rescue, but not related to breeders. Let's just say that if I wasn't concerned about the welfare of rabbits (mine or others), I'd spend a lot less time browsing around a bunny forum. 

According to the Animal Welfare Act, 1.5 sq. ft. is adequate for a rabbit under 5 lbs. (Holland Lops). It sounds like everyone here is in agreement that extra space is ideal, and I am sure that our bunnies don't mind.


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## koolaidsmiiles (Dec 5, 2013)

OakRidgeRabbits said:


> Imbrium, I tend to agree with what you're saying. Probably what got me was the use of the word welfare in relation to pets/rescue, but not related to breeders. Let's just say that if I wasn't concerned about the welfare of rabbits (mine or others), I'd spend a lot less time browsing around a bunny forum.
> 
> According to the Animal Welfare Act, 1.5 sq. ft. is adequate for a rabbit under 5 lbs. (Holland Lops). It sounds like everyone here is in agreement that extra space is ideal, and I am sure that our bunnies don't mind.



The more space the better is what everyone's saying ... so 24 x 24 is for a baby? Do you agree that 24 x 24 is right? All I'm concerned about is making sure I have at least the minimum. .I can't do these huge cages alot of ppl have on here but I do want to make sure that my lop is at least comfortable in his cage & I can just let him out as often as possible.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Dec 5, 2013)

koolaidsmiiles said:


> The more space the better is what everyone's saying ... so 24 x 24 is for a baby? Do you agree that 24 x 24 is right? All I'm concerned about is making sure I have at least the minimum. .I can't do these huge cages alot of ppl have on here but I do want to make sure that my lop is at least comfortable in his cage & I can just let him out as often as possible.



No, 24"x24" isn't for babies, that's what I use to house my full-grown adults (3-4 lbs.) They live individually, just one bunny per cage.

This size of cage provides plenty of room to sit down, stand up, lay down, turn around, hop back and forth, etc. My cages are tall enough that they can not only stand, but also reach to sniff the top of the cage. Hollands are small rabbits and they are comfortable and happy in a cage this size.

You will find different opinions, some say bigger is better. Others will say the opposite. I certainly wouldn't use a cage so small that the rabbit's movement was restricted. That isn't healthy and can cause physical distress. However, rabbits are burrowers and prey animals who feel most comfortable in a "cozy" area. While my rabbits do like running in their x-pens for exercise, I find that they prefer their home base to be less open and expansive.

Use your judgement.  You will definitely find varying opinions on what is "best" because all of us have different experiences.

What your rabbit absolutely NEEDS is housing that is safe/secure, dry, and large enough to allow him to move in any direction he pleases. Beyond that, there are many adjustments you can make to enhance the area. Like most of us, you will probably change your mind several times and adjust your rabbit's surroundings several times before settling on what works best for you.


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## koolaidsmiiles (Dec 6, 2013)

OakRidgeRabbits said:


> No, 24"x24" isn't for babies, that's what I use to house my full-grown adults (3-4 lbs.) They live individually, just one bunny per cage.
> 
> This size of cage provides plenty of room to sit down, stand up, lay down, turn around, hop back and forth, etc. My cages are tall enough that they can not only stand, but also reach to sniff the top of the cage. Hollands are small rabbits and they are comfortable and happy in a cage this size.
> 
> ...



Can you fit a litter box in a 24 x 24 with still enough room for them to stretch? I can't even find a 24 x 24 cage the length is usually big in the 30s & width is in the teens ..so annoying >_<


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## Imbrium (Dec 6, 2013)

OakRidgeRabbits said:


> Imbrium, I tend to agree with what you're saying. Probably what got me was the use of the word welfare in relation to pets/rescue, but not related to breeders. Let's just say that if I wasn't concerned about the welfare of rabbits (mine or others), I'd spend a lot less time browsing around a bunny forum.



I totally understand why you felt the need to post what you did - we sometimes accidentally come down a little hard on the breeders around here just because you guys are the minority; I know you're all used to getting put on the defensive now and then ><

I think breeders and pet owners alike tend to forget that the grass on our own side of the fence isn't greener, it's just a different flavor .

A good (albeit exaggerated) analogy for the difference between breeder methods and pet owner methods is to consider a professional athlete and a couch-potato with a desk job. Would you suggest that they both eat the same diet and follow the same exercise program simply because "they're both humans?" Of course not - their lifestyles are vastly different. The athlete needs a diet that's higher in calories and essential nutrients to give their body the energy they need and would be more worried about not over-exerting themselves than about pushing themselves to get more exercise. The couch-potato would need a lower calorie diet aimed at preventing obesity and would need to focus on increasing their activity/exercise instead of sitting around all the time. What's best for one of them isn't what's best for the other.

House bunnies are little loafs, prone to being overweight if we don't encourage them to eat healthy and stay active. While a breeder's rabbits are busy rearing kits (if they aren't currently getting a rest break) or running the show circuit and generally being "productive members" of the rabbit community, my little loafs are being veggie-gobbling, pellet-snarfing slackers who have nothing better to do with their days than come up with new ways to destroy their condo and torment the cats. Get a job, ya mooches!


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## selbert (Dec 6, 2013)

Imbrium said:


> That's a nice one! The cover isn't needed indoors unless you have nosy cats who like to jump, but that price is very good for that size enclosure even not taking the lid into account (since you'd almost certainly have to go with something higher than 24'' without the cover). The only downside is that you'd have a heck of a time getting into the pen with the rabbit(s).
> 
> Out of curiosity, can you customize it at all? For example, could you leave one ceiling panel off, allowing you to add to it with NIC grids to make a second level (obviously with a half-way step so the rabbit could get up there)?



I took all the grids completely apart and used them to build a better more accessible cage, I couldn't find anywhere in England to get the grids on their own and this seemed a really cheap option  

I also found things like these
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000TAN2XS/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

To add different levels, they're made for cages and just clip in, you can get all sizes! They do more than corners as well 
This cage was supposed to be temporary whilst my buns get fixed and also for when I go to my parents for the holidays (You can just take the levels out and fold it up!) but I've been so creative with it and my buns (take it in turns to be in the cage and out of the cage) love it so it's a permanent set up in our house now!


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## Imbrium (Dec 6, 2013)

That's awesome that you can totally re-arrange it... if I understand correctly, it sounds like you can use the "ceiling" panels as extra side-walls if you want? That would make a massive pen!


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Dec 6, 2013)

Imbrium said:


> I totally understand why you felt the need to post what you did - we sometimes accidentally come down a little hard on the breeders around here just because you guys are the minority; I know you're all used to getting put on the defensive now and then ><



That's okay, I know breeders tend to do the same thing in the other direction too. I'm on a few online communities where it's "pet owner this" and "pet owner that." I'm likeWAIT! We ALL have exactly the same goal!


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## my2geldings (Dec 7, 2013)

Imbrium said:


> A single rabbit or pair of rabbits needs *either* 24/7 access to 60+ square feet of space (a "run" area attached to their cage with playpens, for example) OR at least 4-5h outside the cage each day. Bigger is always better with cages unless they're free-range all the time (like a house cat), though the more time they spend out, the more you can scrimp on cage space.
> 
> An important thing to consider is that rabbits are most active around dusk and dawn - they don't sleep all night like most people do. Mine are usually awake and often bouncing off the walls at 3 am, to the point that they seem almost as nocturnal as my sugar gliders sometimes. In other words, if you cage your rabbit at night, you don't want him to be bored and destructive in a small cage.
> 
> ...



I just saw the pictures you posted. We are in the process to move into a new house, and I want to rebuild their cage. I used shelving panels like you, but I wanted to see how you did yours. Would you be willing to post a full size image of the picture you posted? the one posted was a bit to small and I could not see the details.


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## Imbrium (Dec 7, 2013)

Unfortunately, I can't get them to post any bigger on the forums these days... however, if chrome and photobucket are less disagreeable than they were the other night, you might be able to see the full versions through a photobucket link:

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x465/mareimbri1/DSCF0411.jpg

(mind you, there's no direct access between the first and second floors in that design because they were never locked in the condo as it's attached to a large run made of playpens)

Here's my new condo:

http://i1183.photobucket.com/albums/x465/mareimbri1/condo_zps01ae83ef.jpg~originalhttp://s1183.photobucket.com/user/mareimbri1/media/condo_zps01ae83ef.jpg.html

Apparently I can't get a larger size to appear with the link on the second one *grumble* - I think it has to do with the first one being a link that was copy/pasted into a notepad somewhere and was generated before I was forced to switch to the "new" Photobucket ages ago.

The thing I like most about the new condo compared to the old one is that the level that's only one grid high is in the middle instead of on the bottom - that makes a HUGE difference in how much of a pain it is to clean out the condo (my girls are messy little punks!).


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