# which evil is lesser?



## Imbrium (Dec 12, 2012)

so... my girls have been going NUTS chewing up the condo's coroplast and ivory soap is no longer deterring them for more than a day. dunno if it's connected, but it seemed to start right after I started severely limiting their alfalfa hay. I was hoping once I gave up on the coastal and bought overpriced oat hay, it would stop, but no luck. they're eating the oat hay, at least, but the crazed chewing continues.












same area as the second pic, taken a few days later:





I finally figured out something that can distract them from chewing the condo... unfortunately, it's the edible log from walmart that I took away a couple months ago after someone pointed out that they contain pine shavings and are really unhealthy.

"edible logz" ingredients: pine wood shavings, cassava starch, alfalfa, liquid mix (water, sodium alginate, potassium sorbate, propionic acid, honey, glycerin, propylene glycol).

GA: 1.6% crude protein, .5% crude fat, 40% crude fiber (max) 10% moisture (max)

I'm concerned that they're ingesting some of the plastic when gnawing apart the coroplast... but I'm also concerned that the snack log is a far cry from a healthy alternative. any opinions on which is less bad for them?


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## MiniLopHop (Dec 12, 2012)

Have you tried timothy? or apple twigs? It sounds like they need something more to chew on and they are not liking their hay very much. I would give them alfalfa before letting them eat chloroplast or the edible logs.


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## Imbrium (Dec 12, 2012)

they HATE every kind of hay I've tried except oat and alfalfa and I've tried like half a dozen kinds. they get 2-3 handfuls of alfalfa per day plus unlimited oat. they've got wicker balls which they've suddenly been ignoring (even though they used to go crazy for them), cardboard boxes (which they do chew on sometimes), etc. they don't like apple twigs or any other chews I've tried. the only thing I can think of to keep them off the coroplast other than the stupid log would be to lock them out of their beloved condo.


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## agnesthelion (Dec 12, 2012)

Have you tried vinegar? I've heard of some rabbits having an aversion to it.

Also, alum and water deters chewing for dogs....I wonder if it would work for rabbits? Alum is a spice used in pickling. It is odorless and colorless and harmless. You can mix it with water and put it where you don't want them to chew. It is very drying (try some, it's weird) so it's not a comfortable feeling in puppies mouths so it keeps them from chewing. It might be worth a try for rabbits.....?

Also, right now my two are having a ball with wrapping paper tubes. For some reason they like them BETTER than toilet paper rolls. They are a little tougher and they also unrollmso they are curly and springy and fun.

That's my suggestions......good luck. Both mine have chewed a bit on the coroplast too but for me the soap did the trick and they haven't touched it since.....


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## whitelop (Dec 12, 2012)

You're not supposed to give the alfalfa because its high in calcium right? 
Could you cut down the veggies high in calcium and just continue to give them alfalfa? With a mix of oat too. 
Do they not eat botanical? I know its just timothy, but its got the flowers and herbs in it so it smells great. 
I know they're super picky buns and I know you've tried so many different things with them. Couldn't you just leave them with whatever hay you want them to eat and make them eat it? Like if they get hungry enough they'll eat. You may have already tried that though. Foo didn't like oat hay at first, but I kept giving it to her and finally she started to eat it. 

But I think the lesser of the two evils would be to let them chew on that log thing. Its got to be better than eating plastic. Maybe get them a dried pine cone or something, I think those are okay. Well, I guess I've heard different things about pine cones, so maybe look that up.


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## missyscove (Dec 12, 2012)

What if you just cut off the edges of the coroplast that stick up vertically? It looks like that's the part they're chewing on.


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## woahlookitsme (Dec 12, 2012)

Pine cones are fine my tans love those things!! I just take them from the neighbors yard and put them in the carrying cages when we go to shows. Mom also gives alfalfa cubes as treats (maybe that could fill their cravings for it in a smaller volume). I started making custom toys with hay and paper towel rolls. Also I wonder if bitter apple would work? It's smells like isopropyl alcohol and works wonders on dogs that chew things. My puppy doesnt like it when I even touch the bottle. He is a basenji mix so he chews on everything. 

Find more interesting toys for them or find something that they don't like to mess with. Maybe even giving them more playtime might help?


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## agnesthelion (Dec 12, 2012)

Oh forgot to add, I saw Morgans post and remembered, that if none of that works I do think the lesser of the evils would have to be the log. I agree with morgan. Plastic is nothing natural at all so it has to be worse than the log, right? Just my thoughts....


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## MiniLopHop (Dec 12, 2012)

Unfortunately buns love bitter apple, they just say thanks for the salad dressing.


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## Korr_and_Sophie (Dec 12, 2012)

I use poster hangers along the edge of the coroplast to prevent chewing. I did find some similar stuff at a hardware store that is easer to put on and cheaper, so try to look for that (it looks like the poster hanger, having a U shape and is plastic). I use duct tape to keep it in place and the bunnies can't chew the coroplast.


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## ldoerr (Dec 12, 2012)

Pine cones are a favorite amongst most rabbits. I had a rabbit named Tiger (RIP) that would eat a HUGE one in under 10 minutes. She LOVED them. You would put it in her cage, turn your back to give another rabbit one and it would be 1/2 gone. 

Shiny Things has tried to eat her coroplast a few times but I spray her with water and she stops and does not do it again. You could try that.


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## Imbrium (Dec 12, 2012)

whitelop said:


> You're not supposed to give the alfalfa because its high in calcium right?
> Could you cut down the veggies high in calcium and just continue to give them alfalfa? With a mix of oat too.
> Do they not eat botanical? I know its just timothy, but its got the flowers and herbs in it so it smells great.
> I know they're super picky buns and I know you've tried so many different things with them. Couldn't you just leave them with whatever hay you want them to eat and make them eat it? Like if they get hungry enough they'll eat. You may have already tried that though. Foo didn't like oat hay at first, but I kept giving it to her and finally she started to eat it.


they don't eat botanical >< as for the alfalfa, if it was just the calcium, I'd give it anyway since I've heard that the links between calcium in food and calcium-related health issues are tenuous at best, especially in bunnies who don't currently have calcium issues... however, it's also high in protein and calories. the extra protein isn't really good for them and gazzles is chubby.

I've tried just leaving the coastal thinking "if they get hungry enough, they'll eat it" but I caved after about a week because they were convinced I was starving them to death even though they still got 3/8c pellets (each), lots of veggies and a handful or two of alfalfa daily. on the plus side, without all the tasty alfalfa around, Nala is finally doing a better job of eating veggies.



missyscove said:


> What if you just cut off the edges of the coroplast that stick up vertically? It looks like that's the part they're chewing on.


I suspect they'd just turn around and chew at the floor, heh. it's their "project" and you know how bunnies get about projects 



Korr_and_Sophie said:


> I use poster hangers along the edge of the coroplast to prevent chewing. I did find some similar stuff at a hardware store that is easer to put on and cheaper, so try to look for that (it looks like the poster hanger, having a U shape and is plastic). I use duct tape to keep it in place and the bunnies can't chew the coroplast



have a pic or link, by chance? that sounds like a good possible solution but I can't picture what you're talking about.


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## whitelop (Dec 12, 2012)

I forgot about the protein and calories in the alfalfa. 
But with less of it, I'm glad Nala has decided she wants to eat more veggies. They're both so nutty. lol


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## Imbrium (Dec 12, 2012)

they're picky little brats! (Nala still really only eats cilantro and kale, she just eats more of it now. she did nibble on some watercress last week, though. I'm gonna try buying more of a variety instead of just grabbing the go-to veggies all the time.)

good thing for them they're SO cute - I can't be mad at those wittle faces no matter how expensively picky and destructive they are


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## whitelop (Dec 12, 2012)

I agree with grabbing differently varieties. Just today, I fed Foo some rosemary. When I was holding it, she just sniffed it and walked away. I put it in her bowl, she went to it, sniffed it and took a bite. Realized it was delicious and ate the whole thing. lol Sometimes they're just crazy little creatures. 
They are very expensive when it comes to the fresh stuff, trust me I know. I spend too much to even think about every week. (No really, I'm afraid to add it up because if I did my husband would put me in the chicken coop! lmao)
I've found with Foo, she likes some stuff but can't eat it because it makes her gassy. But like you already know, trying things multiple times works with a lot of buns. I have to do it with Foo on some things. Like bell peppers. She only likes green ones :? but no other colors. Does that make sense? Nope. But I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir, I know you've tried everything like 10 times with her. 

Someone else suggested alfalfa cubes? Have you thought about those? They would give them something to chew on and they would still get a little bit of alfalfa. You could probably break them into smaller pieces. If they eat the oat hay stick with that I guess. I just can't believe they didn't like the coastal, where I am it looks so good! Do you want me to mail you an envelop of MY coastal? lol I only paid $6.75 for my bale!


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## Acacia-Berry (Dec 12, 2012)

The hay blocks don't help wearing the teeth though, like coarse hay does.


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## whitelop (Dec 12, 2012)

I didn't mean to replace hay, I meant to give them something new to chew on instead of the coroplast. Something that they can have not hurt them and to also keep them occupied. Because those little log things say they're bun safe, but we all know they're full of crap; but they're still better than eating plastic. 
So a hay cube would be the lesser of the lesser of the evils. Ya know?!


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## Acacia-Berry (Dec 12, 2012)

Ah, got you  I never actually tried those on my bunny but I hear some really like them. What about those hay tunnels by Oxbow?


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## Imbrium (Dec 12, 2012)

whitelop said:


> I agree with grabbing differently varieties. Just today, I fed Foo some rosemary. When I was holding it, she just sniffed it and walked away. I put it in her bowl, she went to it, sniffed it and took a bite. Realized it was delicious and ate the whole thing. lol Sometimes they're just crazy little creatures.
> They are very expensive when it comes to the fresh stuff, trust me I know. I spend too much to even think about every week. (No really, I'm afraid to add it up because if I did my husband would put me in the chicken coop! lmao)
> I've found with Foo, she likes some stuff but can't eat it because it makes her gassy. But like you already know, trying things multiple times works with a lot of buns. I have to do it with Foo on some things. Like bell peppers. She only likes green ones :? but no other colors. Does that make sense? Nope. But I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir, I know you've tried everything like 10 times with her.
> 
> Someone else suggested alfalfa cubes? Have you thought about those? They would give them something to chew on and they would still get a little bit of alfalfa. You could probably break them into smaller pieces. If they eat the oat hay stick with that I guess. I just can't believe they didn't like the coastal, where I am it looks so good! Do you want me to mail you an envelop of MY coastal? lol I only paid $6.75 for my bale!



yeah, mine don't eat red bell peppers... Gaz will eat the green, though. I would've thought red would be a hit because it's sweeter >.>

sometimes I rotate/go for variety but lately I've gotten lazy and have been going for what I know they'll BOTH eat (mostly because I didn't want Nala shunning the veggies AND the hay)... now that I have their darn overpriced oat and they're eating it well, I'll get back to varying the veggies a little bit since even if Nala won't eat something, Gaz almost certainly will. it's just so easy to toss a full bunch of cilantro in at lunch and 1/2 a bunch of kale in at dinner time, lol - I buy 2 kale/4 cilantro at once and I'm set for the next four days.

I did buy turnip greens instead of the second bunch of kale last week and collard greens instead of the second bunch this week (or maybe it was the other way around), but neither was a big hit (the first one was such a bust that I had to give the rest to my neighbor). they've also had a little bit of celery, cucumber and bell pepper.

thanks for the offer, but I'll pass on the offer to be mailed coastal - even if they liked it, it'd be as pricey as oat by the time I got some shipped to me from wherever you bought it, lol (assuming they'd even do that). if I can't get them to eat the bale I bought, I'll just send it home with Q-tip next spring or something .


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## whitelop (Dec 12, 2012)

lmao. Okay I won't mail you any hay!


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## Korr_and_Sophie (Dec 12, 2012)

You can see the poster hangers along the back in this photo. They go around the whole cage.


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## Imbrium (Dec 12, 2012)

ohhh, THAT stuff... ok... you said you found something similar at a home improvement store? what section did you find it in?


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## tamsin (Dec 12, 2012)

What sort of apple sticks did you try, fresh or bought and how did you feed them - just on the floor? I would see if you can find someone with an apple tree (freeads/freecycle) and get some branches 1/2 diameter upwards and cable tie them along the edge of the coroplast. I think the positioning plus the freshness might solve the problem.

The other thing is to come at it sideways, instead of trying to stop the chewing, give them lots of other things to do so they have less time for chewing e.g. use a treat ball for dry food, swap out toys daily to keep them interesting, hang up veggies, give them extra out time, cardboard houses to play/chew, digging box that sort of thing


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## Imbrium (Dec 12, 2012)

I tried bought... tried handing it to them, putting it on the floor and putting it on a treat-k-bob. I try to give them all sorts of toys... they do stop nomming coroplast to rip up phone books and redecorate their cardboard castle sometimes, but they always go back to the coroplast. I can't give 'em a dig box 'cause they *always* end up peeing in it whether it's dirt or shredded paper (plus they never seemed to like it when I used shredded paper to minimize the mess). they technically don't get "out" time at all unless you count the occasional trip outside when the weather is nice - they've got my living room fenced in with playpens as a permanent run. I could lock them out of the condo except when they're sleepy, though - they spend most of their time in the run anyway.


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## whitelop (Dec 12, 2012)

Have you thought about taking their condo out and putting an extra large dog crate in their run instead? 
Like size for a great dane, then maybe make a level out of the NIC grids and put something other than coroplast on the level. 

Or you could take the coroplast out of the NIC cage and figure something else out to put in there. Like maybe some wood or something with the clear stuff you have on there anyway. You could probably get the people at home depot to cut it to size for you. But I don't know, I think they do that here, maybe not everywhere. 

Those are my suggestions for the coroplast issues.


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## Imbrium (Dec 12, 2012)

they do cut wood for you at my home depot... but I wouldn't be able to fit it in my car, lol. considering I spent $150 or more on their condo (a good chunk of which was for the shiny purple coroplast they're destroying >.>) and they LOVE the highest level (which is nearly eye-level for me), I'd hate to scrap it and buy a dog crate. I might look into alternative flooring, though, or see if maybe home depot could deliver since I live all of three blocks away.


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## Korr_and_Sophie (Dec 12, 2012)

Imbrium said:


> ohhh, THAT stuff... ok... you said you found something similar at a home improvement store? what section did you find it in?



I just looked it up on the website and it seems to be called J Trim or J moulding. I have seen some metal ones as well as plastic. I guess it is near the dry wall stuff.


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## Imbrium (Dec 12, 2012)

excellent, thanks!


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## whitelop (Dec 12, 2012)

I totally understand not wanting to scrap the condo. I would just be really mad and i would wind up chucking it out into the yard. Then they really wouldn't be able to chew it! lol


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## Imbrium (Dec 13, 2012)

yeah, but if I leave crap on my lawn, the city will charge me $2000 a day until it's gone (I know 'cause one of my jerk neighbors reported me one time when I procrastinated about calling someone to haul off a fallen tree limb >.>)


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## Acacia-Berry (Dec 14, 2012)

2000$ a day!?!? Oh my.. I wish someone would enforce a law like that around here!

That black and brown bunny pictured above *grabby hands*


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Dec 14, 2012)

The log sounds fine to me. It actually sounds like a good alternative for chewing. By pine shavings, I would guess they just mean a processed, compressed wood product, rather than a solid chunk of wood straight off a tree. I've been using shavings as a bedding for as long as I've had rabbits (12 years) with no issues.

If you'd rather not use the log, why not bring in some branches from outside or get some pieces of untreated lumber for them to chew on? It probably doesn't have to be in a log formation to entice them. LOL And pine is a softer wood...they'd probably prefer hardwood anyway.

ETA- Wow, didn't realize this thread was already pages long. Nevermind- I'm sure this is old news by now.


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## Imbrium (Dec 14, 2012)

my concern with the log is that pine shavings have been shown to cause health problems when used as bedding/litter and I'm not sure if compressed shavings still have the phenols in them or not


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## whitelop (Dec 14, 2012)

Don't the phenols go away when you cook the pine? Those things are baked aren't they? Call the company that makes them and ask if they get baked before they package them.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Dec 14, 2012)

Pine shavings are safe to use with rabbits. I use them with newborn kits all the way up to my "senior community" of older pets. Here's a good article about it: http://buckysbunnies.tripod.com/Pine.html


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## holtzchick (Dec 14, 2012)

Hmm... really late to chime in with an opinion. What I did when Phoenix wouldn't eat hay is I bought a huge bale of timothy hay and then mixed in one of the smallest bags of kaytee alfalfa (it's honestly quite small) and that way, it coaxed her to eat the timothy hay until she got used to it on its own 

Sorry if someone already mentioned that, I read the first page and was too lazy to read the other two 

All in all, you could try putting cardboard around the perimeter of the coroplast. :/ I don't know how safe those logs are but plastic is also pretty bad.


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