# KAYTEE brand kibble bad for bunnies?



## Mr. Bunbun (Jul 10, 2009)

whenever i give Bunbun KAYTEE brand kibble with dental bites in it, she twitches and seems to have ticks. whenever i give her the KAYTEE PRO HEALTH kibble with omega 3s, she acts normal and doesnt twitch. i went to all the pet stores around where I live and only 1 petland had the dental bite kibble. was it recalled from stores? if it was i wouldnt be surprised. it makes a bunny act abnormal. If anyone has heard anything about this please let me know. Ty.


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## Maureen Las (Jul 10, 2009)

http://www.petstore.com/ps_searchItem.aspx?SearchText=rabbit+food&vendorname=Kaytee&vendorcode=KY&parsed=1&itemsonpage=60
these are the Kaytee brands of rabbit food 

so are you sure that you are buying the rabbit food and not for another animal?

I am moving this to the nutrition andbehavior forum


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## JimD (Jul 10, 2009)

*angieluv wrote: *


> so are you sure that you are buying the rabbit food and not for another animal?


:yeahthat:


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## tonyshuman (Jul 10, 2009)

I have fed the Kaytee with dental bites before, and it's not a very good pellet. The dental bites are just treat biscuits with a bit of pumice or something in them, and the pellets are alfalfa-based, not ok for an adult bunny. I don't know about the other one.


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## maherwoman (Jul 10, 2009)

I would recommend that if you're going to get your bun Kaytee brand, try Timothy Complete for a Timothy-based pellet, or Kaytee Supreme Daily Blend for Rabbits for an alfalfa-based pellet. They are the only Kaytee products I would recommend, and this after much research. 

Also, be sure to switch GRADUALLY over a period of a month.


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## tonyshuman (Jul 10, 2009)

I agree with Rosie. Also, if cost is a factor, the first thing I'd do with an adult bunny is decrease the pellet amount to 1/8 cup/day/5lbs of bunny, or less. You can also find a few good pellets at feed stores if there are any around you. Those usually come in huge bags and are a lot cheaper than pet store pellets.


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## Flashy (Jul 10, 2009)

When you say it makes her twitch and gives her ticks, is it as she is eating? Is it on her hips? If so, that's excitement. Some rabbits only get it with specific treats but others get it more frequently.

I completely agree with the others though that maybe it is better to get her into a healthier food gradually.


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## maherwoman (Jul 10, 2009)

*tonyshuman wrote: *


> I agree with Rosie. Also, if cost is a factor, the first thing I'd do with an adult bunny is decrease the pellet amount to 1/8 cup/day/5lbs of bunny, or less. You can also find a few good pellets at feed stores if there are any around you. Those usually come in huge bags and are a lot cheaper than pet store pellets.


Too true. The general rule of thumb is 1/4 cup of food per 5lbs of body weight.  

When decreasing, you'll want to take your time and do it gradually, too, that way it's not too much of a shock to your bun's system.


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## Mr. Bunbun (Jul 10, 2009)

Yes! I am 110% sure; so sure that as im typing this I am looking at the bag.


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## tonyshuman (Jul 10, 2009)

Huh, interesting. It could be bunny butt twitches for loving the stuff, but she really shouldn't have either of those foods. Timothy complete is the only Kaytee I'd recommend feeding.


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## Mr. Bunbun (Jul 11, 2009)

its more like full body twitches.:twitch:


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## Flashy (Jul 11, 2009)

That sounds like a bunny who just really loves the food if she is doing it at the time of eating. Unfortunately, like with children, just because they like something, doesn't mean its good for them.


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## undergunfire (Jul 11, 2009)

I would never feel Kaytee because I do not believe that any of their products are made for the best interest of our pets. They may make a "decent" Timothy rabbit & piggie pellet that some people like..but look at all the other crap products that they put out on the market for uneducated people to buy. I'd rather not support that. When you buy Kaytee Timothy Complete, you are just fueling them to keep producing junk products.

Sweet Meadows, Oxbow, or American Pet Diner are you're best choices. Where do you live? You can find Oxbow in PetSmart if you can't order it online, not I am not sure if you can find Sweet Meadows or American Pet Diner in stores.


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## maherwoman (Jul 11, 2009)

*undergunfire wrote: *


> I would never feel Kaytee because I do not believe that any of their products are made for the best interest of our pets. They may make a "decent" Timothy rabbit & piggie pellet that some people like..but look at all the other crap products that they put out on the market for uneducated people to buy. I'd rather not support that. When you buy Kaytee Timothy Complete, you are just fueling them to keep producing junk products.
> 
> Sweet Meadows, Oxbow, or American Pet Diner are you're best choices. Where do you live? You can find Oxbow in PetSmart if you can't order it online, not I am not sure if you can find Sweet Meadows or American Pet Diner in stores.


I understand what you're saying on this...but I do have a basic disagreement on it...

What about people that cannot afford to buy the pellets you mention? There've been times we couldn't...and had to feed ours the Kaytee pellets I mention. I agree that a lot of their products aren't the best for animals, but those two kinds of pellets _are_ good products, and when you don't have the money for things like American Pet Diner and Oxbow, you have to find SOMETHING affordable and healthy for them...and those pellets fit the bill. We couldn't afford Oxbow for the longest time (or American Pet Diner...couldn't even find Sweet Meadow, except online, and that was just too expensive with shipping). The only reason we can afford it now is because we found a place where we could buy it at-cost. If we hadn't found that here in Canada, we would've had to go back to Kaytee, and I wouldn't have felt like they were getting a horrible quality of life because of it, because I've done the nutritional comparisons, and Kaytee Timothy Complete was appropriate on all values.

I just cannot agree with telling people something that makes them feel bad for not ordering their bunny food online, paying for shipping, and thereby spending twice as much as they have to (and even paying quite a bit more if they _do _find it in stores). If someone cannot afford it, they shouldn't have to feel bad for buying what they _can_ afford, especially if it's something that has the proper nutritional values for their pet. Plenty of companies (and companies owned by other companies that qualify) have other products that we may not agree with...but you've got to do what you've got to do to keep your animal healthy. I think that's the most important thing. 

I hope this doesn't anger you...it's just that there are people out there that are able to afford Oxbow, American Pet Diner, and Sweet Meadow...but there are also a lot out there that cannot, either by buying it in-store or ordering online. It's an expensive option. If someone cannot afford it, they should know about a good pellet food that they can...and shouldn't feel guilty in buying it.

Sorry for the soapbox, guys...just something I've become passionate about, given how things have gone for us in the past year. We worked hard, and really fought to keep our buns healthy and alive, and I just cannot back something that makes someone feel bad for doing what they can to give their pet a healthy life.

:soapbox

Hugs to all!

Rosie*


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## maherwoman (Jul 11, 2009)

There was something Danny (my husband) wanted to add to this idea...

You might want to aggressively price the food. If you decide you want to feed your bun this or that, do some research, call around at different pet stores (and feed stores) to not only know which stores carry that product, but also to find the best price. 

We did this about a year ago, when living in California, when we decided we could afford spending a little more on the buns' food, and found a place where we could buy Oxbow Bunny Basics T at-cost (about $10 for 10lbs of food), so we went with it. (We also did this with the Kaytee Timothy Complete when we had just Maisie, back in '06. You can and should do this with any bun/pet food. We've also done this with our kitties' food.)

When we moved here to Canada, we had to do this all over again. We started out by going on the Oxbow site and researched dealers in our area. We then called them to see what exactly they carried, and for how much. If they didn't carry Oxbow any longer, we asked them if they would be willing to order it, and for how much.

Then, we researched (I believe in the MSN Yellow Pages) to find any feed stores near us (horse feed and tack, usually), and called around, asking the same things: Do you carry Oxbow bunny food, and if so, for how much? If they didn't carry it, would they order it, and for how much?

By doing this, we not only found excellent sources of hay (we also asked them if they had Timothy hay, in what quantities, and for how much), but also found excellent stores to purchase the food we wanted at a great price. When we got here to Canada and researched using this technique, we found food for less than even the people on the forum that already lived around here had found it for! 

Right now, we're getting 10lb bags of Oxbow Bunny Basics T (their Timothy-based pellet) for $14 each...which is about $10 less than they normally go for. That's with them ordering a certain amount for us, which normally takes about two weeks to come in. If you want to get it faster, try checking with vet offices in your area. Some of them carry Oxbow in their office, but sometimes that can be more expensive than ordering it through a pet/feed store. The vet office we found around here that carries it sells it for about $19 (including tax) for a 10lb bag.

So, there ya go. Research, call, and interrogate...on any brand of bunny food.  It's so worth it!!


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## undergunfire (Jul 11, 2009)

I have a tattoo appointment that I have to leave for in a few minutes, so I don't have time to write out a long reply....


I do have to say though, that I was not being a "snooty high-priced pellet person" (which is what you're post made me feel like h34r2). I was simply stating my opinion on Kaytee and why I would never feed it.

Personally, Kaytee Timothy Complete costs a couple dollars less then Oxbow. You're situation was definitely different, Rosie, but I think for any person living okay in this economy...you can cut out going out to eat one night or cut down on you're cell phone texting or something...in order to pay the couple dollars more per month for a food that is better for you're pet AND isn't paying money to a company who supports bad health in our pets.

I am all for someone buying the highest quality pet food that they can afford, but I do believe that the proper research needs to be done. I'd rather pay $5 more per bag for a higher quality food made by a company that only puts out high quality products...then pay for a quality product by a company that might be $5 cheaper per bag, but puts out products that are misleading and in poor nutritional value.


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## mlg4491 (Jul 16, 2009)

Hi!

I have a question about your post. are you sure she's twitching, and not binking? My two buns get very excited around meal time, and they hop straight into the air, race around, shake their ears and the like. Does this sound like the twitch you're seeing? I used to give them Kaytee Fiesta (it's horrible, by the way. It's all fat) and they used to love it because it was very similar to the treats they got. Essentially, they thought they were getting treats for breakfast, so they would bink (or binky)! Not all bunnies fly into the air when they bink, only one of mine does. 

Thank you youtube, check out this

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDXgYa3La_0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDXgYa3La_0[/ame]

and this

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lPfKBw6Zys&feature=related]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lPfKBw6Zys&feature=related[/ame]

As for food I'm right there with you! I just finished my search for good, affordable pellets. So, according to HRS, it should have 18% fiber minimum. To that, I would add not more than 2% fat, 14-16% protein. So I took those guidelines and checked them over with all the bunny foods. This is what I recommend to you, since I do not know what all you have available to you. Myself, having compared all the rabbit foods offered at my local pet store, I settled on Zupreem Nature's Promise pellets. They're timothy based (Woo!) super high fiber, and very low fat (1% also woo!) And, best of all, I found the 10 pound bag at CountryMax (it's a tractor supply/feed store)for 11 dollars. Not bad, right? So, what I'm saying is, good pellets don't always break the bank. And also, if you have a countrymax, or the like, anwhere around, check it out. It might have your answers. ^.^

Hope that helps!


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## ratmom (Jul 19, 2009)

We bought the Kaytee Forti-Diet Pro Health w/omega 3 and the ingredients look pretty good. I couldn't stand them either in the past, but I think kaytee is starting to slowly change their ways.


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## undergunfire (Jul 19, 2009)

*ratmom wrote: *


> We bought the Kaytee Forti-Diet Pro Health w/omega 3 and the ingredients look pretty good. I couldn't stand them either in the past, but I think kaytee is starting to slowly change their ways.


I definitely have to disagree with this. Kaytee definitely isn't changing their ways...they still have terrible products with fancy names on the market luring people, like you, in .


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## tonyshuman (Jul 20, 2009)

Do you have a link to the ingredients, or can you tell us the protein %, fat %, and fiber % of the pellets?


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## ratmom (Jul 20, 2009)

*tonyshuman wrote: *


> Do you have a link to the ingredients, or can you tell us the protein %, fat %, and fiber % of the pellets?


http://kaytee.com/products/kaytee-fortidiet-pro-health-rabbit-adult.php


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## ratmom (Jul 20, 2009)

*undergunfire wrote: *


> *ratmom wrote: *
> 
> 
> > We bought the Kaytee Forti-Diet Pro Health w/omega 3 and the ingredients look pretty good. I couldn't stand them either in the past, but I think kaytee is starting to slowly change their ways.
> ...


Luring people like me in? Don't insult me please. Next your going to tell me I'm not feeding my rats right :rollseyes


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## tonyshuman (Jul 20, 2009)

The Forti-Diet Pro Health is not a great food. It has too much fat (2.5%, when a better feed has 1.5%, maybe 2% max is ok), and the protein and fiber are a bit low. A good feed has 14% protein and more than 25% fiber. Also, for an adult rabbit it's best for the pellet to be mainly Timothy hay based, and that pellet seems to be a mix of timothy and alfalfa. Adult bunnies don't need alfalfa hay and it's too fatty for them.

It is true that a lot of pet food companies say that their products are healthy when they aren't at all. That is because most pet owners don't know what should and shouldn't be in a pet's food.

An example is Kaytee Fiesta Max. They say it is nutritious and gourmet, but it contains seeds, which a rabbit's digestive tract is not able to break down. They can cause real damage to rabbits. It also has 4% fat, and 12-17% fiber. This food is really bad, but they market it as nutritious.
http://kaytee.com/products/fiesta-max-rabbit.php

I'm sure Amy wasn't trying to say you aren't smart, but she is saying that many companies like Kaytee market products as healthy when they're really quite bad for the animal. Most people don't know what is a good rabbit food, and/or don't have the time to research it. We trust that when a company that's well established and found in every pet store tells us something is good for our pets, that it is. This unfortunately isn't the truth. 

I first bought the Forti-Diet Crunch food for Tony when I got him. http://kaytee.com/products/fortidiet-crunch-rabbit-5-lb.php It's terrible, with 15.5% protein, 3% fat, and 12-16% fiber. Eventually I read enough to know that this was a bad food and I switched.

Kaytee makes an ok food for rabbits, called Timothy Complete. It has 1.5% fat, 14% protein, and 18-23% fiber. I wouldn't recommend any of their other products for rabbits, though. http://kaytee.com/products/timothy-complete-rabbit.php


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jul 20, 2009)

I have to disagree with most all of the posts in this topic, up to this point.

I don't care what brand you're going for, but the MOST important thing to consider is that the food is fresh and works well for YOUR rabbit. In the breeding/show world, we have discussions upon discussions about whch food is "best", and the simple truth is that it depends largely on the individual rabbit, herd, and area you're talking about.

For those of you who have feed mills in your area, generally the best food for your rabbit will be what is locally milled. It often comes a lot fresher since it is made in your area. On that note, this is why breeders (or pet owners) in one area might cringe at the thought of feeding Purina, while people in another area might absolutely love it. Location very much determines the quality of the feed you are working with.

That being said, a general rule for finding a good pellet in my opinion is:

- About 2-3% fat.
- Around 16% protein.

I also want to point out that although I do have show/breeding rabbits to keep in condition, I also keep several pets who thrive on this diet.

I don't worry much about the fiber content in pellets at all, because I feed timothy hay daily. A high fiber content in food is good, but a food high in fiber often lacks in other areas. So I'd rather let fiber contents slide, and feed straight fiber supplements (hay) instead.

As I said, this is only what I feel is best. So as we can all see, opinions vary. Routines vary. And what is "best" varies. I'm floored to see that people will directly tear down someone's opinions on this forum. If their rabbit is healthy, happy, and in good fur and flesh condition, I'm sorry- but there's no reason they need to change what they're doing.

Whether a person is feeding Kaytee, Purina, Blue Seal, Oxbow, or horse grain (lol), if it works for them and their bunnies, that's excellent! We can all give our opinions and make suggestions, but direct attacks are totally uncalled for.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jul 20, 2009)

*tonyshuman wrote: *


> I first bought the Forti-Diet Crunch food for Tony when I got him. http://kaytee.com/products/fortidiet-crunch-rabbit-5-lb.php It's terrible, with 15.5% protein, 3% fat, and 12-16% fiber. Eventually I read enough to know that this was a bad food and I switched.


I'd prefer around 2.5% fat rather than 3% for pets, but otherwise, this sounds like the best Kaytee food IMO.So no, it's not terrible or a bad food...that's basically what my herd is on, except that it's straight pellets...no little "treat" fillers.


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## tonyshuman (Jul 20, 2009)

The personal attacks have come from all sides of this argument, and I agree that they don't belong here. It is important to have an open mind and do research on your own to determine what is the best pellet.

Amy (undergunfire) was arguing that she does not buy Kaytee primarily because of their business practices, in particular marketing lower-quality food as healthy food. This is a personal protest on her part, similar to the reason I don't buy from certain pet stores in town because I don't like the conditions they keep their animals for sale in, etc.

Every person needs to research pellets themselves and know what fat, protein, fiber, calcium content is good for their rabbits. These things vary depending on the age of the rabbit, the environment it is kept in (climate-controlled or not), whether or not it is breeding, the rabbit's genetics, and other health conditions that the rabbit may have. Most indoor pet rabbits will do best on a pellet with greater than 23% fiber, around 14% protein, and less than 2% fat. Outdoor rabbits or breeding rabbits may require more protein and fat.

Not every food made by Kaytee is terrible, but they sell so many bad feeds and call them healthy that some may choose to boycott the company entirely, which is their choice.


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## tonyshuman (Jul 20, 2009)

*OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *


> *tonyshuman wrote: *
> 
> 
> > I first bought the Forti-Diet Crunch food for Tony when I got him. http://kaytee.com/products/fortidiet-crunch-rabbit-5-lb.php It's terrible, with 15.5% protein, 3% fat, and 12-16% fiber. Eventually I read enough to know that this was a bad food and I switched.
> ...


It may be a good food for rabbits that live outside, but it has too much fat and protein, and not enough fiber for a house rabbit with a relaxed life inside. The stress of regulating one's own temperature (ie for a rabbit that lives outside) makes outdoor rabbits have higher protein requirements. Also, it's alfalfa-based, which is not optimal for an adult house rabbit as well. A food like this may be fine for your rabbits, but it's not right for adult house rabbits that snooze all day in an air-conditioned house. 

http://rabbit.org/journal/3-4/pellets.html


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jul 20, 2009)

*tonyshuman wrote: *


> Also, it's alfalfa-based, which is not optimal for an adult house rabbit as well.


Alfalfa is perfectly fine for a rabbit of any age, as I previously mentioned. I have found that rabbits easily lose health and condition when alfalfa is totally stripped from their diet, and that is speaking from a pet perspective, as I have both pet and breeding rabbits.

Alfalfa is important in the diet of a young rabbit to help them grow and mature. Therefore, many people feed ther young rabbits both alfalfa-based pellets and alfalfa hay. However, at maturity (around 6-8 months, depending on the breed), it is best to switch the alfalfa hay to a lighter grass hay. So yes, there is a thing as too much alfalfa in a mature, adult rabbit. However, it is still an important part of their diet, it just has to be balanced properly by using a grass hay at that age.

As a rabbit ages, usually past 6-8 years of age, some rabbits have trouble keeping weight on. It is often suggested to reintroduce alfalfa hay into their diets at this point in time.


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## Jess4921 (Jul 20, 2009)

I buy the Timithy pellets from Kaytee for my piggers, and the nutritional info is pretty close to Oxbow, and IMO its a pretty good pellet. Its half the price of Oxbow pellets, and I would rather put the money into more fresh veggies personally. I buy Smudge Oxbow pellets, but my sister (our guinea pigs are housed together) wont help me pay for Oxbow food for the guinea pigs, so Im kinda stuck, because I cant afford to buy more... especially when her pet will be eating half the food I buy. :\ It kinda sucks when your only 15, and you dont have a job LOL.

Anyway, I dont see a problem with supporting good products, even if theyre from a not-so-good company. If the company sees that alot more people are buying the plain, timithy-based pellets, and not the fancy "gourmay" crap with seeds and stuff, they will probably make more plain pellets and lessen the number of "gourmay" products. So it could potentially have a good impact! But thats just my opinion on it.


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## Happi Bun (Jul 20, 2009)

*tonyshuman wrote: *


> A food like this may be fine for your rabbits, but it's not right for adult *house rabbits that snooze all day in an air-conditioned house.*


The part in bold made me LOL! 
I read it then turned around to see my boys snoozing away with the AC blasting. 
We are experiencing a wave of just horribly dry/hot weather right now.

OakRidge, 
I don't know about breeding rabbit's, but everyone I've ever encountered that's involved with owning rabbit's (which includes rescues) recommends feeding an adult house rabbit a Timothy diet and not Alfalfa. They don't mention anything about their rabbit's losing condition or health so I'm not sure why yours would be. 

:?

I personally feed an all timothy diet (this includes timothy hay available 24/7). My two boys are 11 and 9 months old. They are in great condition, well besides the fact Dunkin is getting to be a bit of a chunk bunny, but that's because I've been feeding him a bit more than recommended. So I will cutting back.


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## CKGS (Jul 20, 2009)

Wow... This poor person came here to ask a question and got an eyeful. I feel bad Mr.Bunbun. 
I feel that MOST of kaytees feeds are probably not the greatest but there are worse ones I believe Hartz prob being one... That being said some of the new pelleted ones don't seem terribly bad to me.
I feed MannaPro. It works well, so far, for my buns and I am happy with it. Also happier because it is actually cheaper for me than most of the little pet food bags sold at most stores. I buy it at the feed store and have found it to be much cheaper. 
I think you can probably get away with feeding what others consider a 'lesser' feed as long as your bun looks good and is getting hay also. I don't know about the hay thing. I just feed mine timothy hay and they seem to love it. 
I hope you came away from this with some idea of what to look for at least.


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## ratmom (Jul 21, 2009)

You guys make everything so confusing lol. I'm going to stick with what I'm doing now and see how it goes. I'm mixing it with the small world food right now since I just started adding it to their food.


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