# Questions for professional breeders



## TinysMom (Apr 30, 2005)

We love all our buns - our flemish is my favorite - but my husband and I are both fascinated with the lionhead breed. We are considering breeding lionheads in the future(next fall or later) - but we want to do more research on breeding,etc. We also need to find a place for our herd because we know our pets have been exposed to the snuffles (pasturella)...

Anyway, here are my questions:

a. Why did you choose to start breeding? Do you still enjoy it? (How long have you been breeding?)

b. What is your biggest challenge in breeding? Do you have a hard time finding homes and buyers?

c. What resources would yourecommend for us to read? What would you recommend we have on hand besides cages & supplies? (Certain medicines?) 

d. I'd like to hear any special thoughts/comments (even if they're recommendations against breeding) because we want to think everything through.

We know that if we choose to do this - we're going to buy double-maned lionheads from particular breeders that we trust. My lionhead breeder explained to me that she knows some folks who "backyard breed" lionheads from their pets and have a hard time selling their lionheads-while she always has a waiting list going and her litters are normally sold before they are of weaning age. She also has a lot of requests from my area and Mexico and she has offered to mentor me if we choose to breed. 

In fact, here are some of her recommendations - maybe y'all can comment on them?

a. Start out with at least three rabbits - 2 does and a buck. Put the majority of my money into the buck since he will be siring all of my herd at first. 

b. Pick 2-3 colors I'd like to work with and focus on those.

c. Start up a webpage with lots of pictures once I get going.

I forget what else - I don't have my notes handy. But I'd love to hear comments....

Peg

P.S. I recognize that lots of folks don't make money breeding and they do it for the love of it - while others do make money at it. Income is NOT my reason we would consider this...


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## KatsMeowTree (Apr 30, 2005)

Hello there,

a.) I started breeding because I was bored waiting around so my brother could feed his pheasants at the 4-H fair and so I decided to check out the rabbit barn and instantly got bitten by the "bunny bug". As for still enjoying it, I'm still doing it anyways! Lol! I love raising my rabbits and that's what I plan on doing when I get older.

b.) My biggest challenge in BREEDING? Well, I'd have to say cleaning. I hate to clean and rarely have enough time during basketball season. But other than that... I really don't have any problems. I sell quite a few of my rabbits to local breeders, other 4-H members and the rest go for meat, but that may not be of any interest to you. 

c.) You need to become an A.R.B.A (American Rabbit Breeders Association) member, check out their page at http://www.arba.net . I'm sure you'll find out all you need to know there. With member ship you get the ARBA yearbook and The Guide to Raising Better Rabbits and Cavies. Another good book is Rabbit Production the 9th Edition or Stories Guide to Raising Rabbits. Keeping Tetracycline or Teramyacin on hand is a good idea along with a little rabbit "First Aid Kit". I keep tweezers, brushes,clippers, Olive Oil (for mites), New Skin, Small Lances and Peroxide or Alcohol on hand. 

d.) Read Read Read Read Read! Research everything you can think of, and even those you can't before you buy! 



As far as getting started goes:

a. You need quality stock no matter how you go. Generally your buck maybe a little more expensive than the does, but they all need to be as good as you can afford. 

b.Stick to just a couple of colors, if you don't you will find yourself overwhelmed with a lesser quality stock. Learn as much as you can first, and then if you want you can expand. 

c. Websites are great but the word of mouth is best. Get your name out there by goin to shows and getting to know people, that's the most effective advertising. 



Kat
Kat's Meow Rabbitry



Here's a picture of my rabbitry set-up:


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## TinysMom (Apr 30, 2005)

Thanks Kat. How many buns do you breed? Do they have an exercise area also for playing?

Peg


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## KatsMeowTree (May 1, 2005)

Right now I have over 100 out there, Californians, Red New Zealands, White New Zealands and Satins. I get most of them out and let them run around because they're just so dang adorable! Lol! Usually I just let them run, because they all come back when they want something and our dogs don't bother them.

Kat


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## pamnock (May 1, 2005)

I think some of the pitfalls of breeders starting out is when they get over their heads by trying to do too much. They may attempt to do to many varieties within a breed or attempt to do too many breeds. They may also simply go out and purchase many rabbits without setting clear goals for what they want to accomplish with their herd. 

Another pitfall is purchasing to win rather than setting goals for herd improvement. Many show rabbits often don't make good breeders. Building your own strain takes work,commitment and goal setting -- there's no easy way to top without putting the work in. 

Also -- treat people as you would want to be treated -- by being honest and upfront.

I also don't like to see the adult live vicariously through the child by using the child as their "front man" for showing and exhibiting the rabbits in youth. If the adult is the one who has the interest and is caring for the rabbits -- then the rabbits should be exhibited in open class where they belong.

I think you are off to a fantastic start Peg. You're doing a lot of research and also working on setting specific goals. No doubt, you have the potential to become a successful and respected breeder.

Pam


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## Buck Jones (May 1, 2005)

*pamnock wrote: *


> I think you are off to a fantastic start Peg. You're doing a lot of research and also working on setting specific goals.... No doubt, you have the potential to become a successful and respected breeder.


I will support that contention of pamnock. A breeder I am not, but you have no idea how refreshing your approach to the task is here at that Forum. More often than not, newbies without a clue, sign on here announcing they are going to breed their mixed breed "Easter" bunnies _toute de suite_ and, now, please tell them all they need to know to successfully breed their pets within 10 short sentences! Pictures would help, too!

Many members here have been accused of being short, terse and none welcoming to these types of individuals when we attempt to dissuade them and give them a reality checkto keep the overproduction of "unwanted" bunnies down to a minimum. These newbies frequently leave in a huff and supported by a population of the pet rabbit Internet community who believes we are too "tough", badmouth Rabbits Only Forum in their own Internet platforms.

If all newcomers to the rabbit breeding community embraced the activity in the manner that you are exhibiting here, *no one* could conceivably accuseanyone of being irresponsible or take issue with plans such as yours.

You are a welcomed addition to our membership! I do hope we can provide you with all the help and assistance you are seeking.

Buck


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## FrenchLopGirl1280 (May 1, 2005)

I choosed to start breeding French Lops because I wanted one of my favorite bunny's baby to show and to play with. It isn't all about the money. Its about the cleaning, taking care of the mand etc. that is the must enjoyable part. Money to me by breeding rabbits it not very important. When I breed I look for people I meet and know to give to them, because then I know they are going to a good home. 

Breeding different breeds of rabbits is a nice, enjoyable acctivity to do because you get interested in a different breed and you can get more money. Money, not important to me. I'm doing Himalayans.

If your going to breed, I suggest to try one of you breeds. Just to see how everything goes. I would suggest to do a buck that knows how to mate and a doe that is like 1 or 2 to mate with the buck. The better the buck knows how to mate the better the chance the doe will get pregnant. You need to watch the doe with the buck because the doe might get aggresive and hurt the buck. one of them might scream. I read that the male might scream when doing his business. My other idea is to not do a doe that has been mated. 

If you do mate any type of breed you have I would watch out to see if the doe kills or eats the babies, because she might not know whos they are and if she knows that they are hers. Watch out for she might not take care of them. 

To get lionhead rabbits, I would suggest to really get only 3 for I would see if you can breed 2 different colors together. I would get 2 does, both different colors and 1 buck a different color. Make sure they aren;t very young or old for the doe might die at giving birth to her live youngs. 

Cleo


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## Hannah (May 1, 2005)

I am not writing this to get on anyones nerves,if i do please forgive me. Kat'sMeowTree, I have a few questions for you. What kind are your rabbitsthat you sell for meat, and where do you sell them?Thanks,Hannah


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## KatsMeowTree (May 1, 2005)

Please, know that I don't enjoy selling them for meat but I simply can not raise these animals and learn without the"extras" that I can't cull out. Rabbit meat is extremely nutritional and were I sell to they are either kept for the lady's own herd or humanly euthanized and processed in the meat-based feed for show dogs or zoo animals. I am simply amazed by rabbit anatomy and domestic rabbit history, so to learn more I breed.... show.... and study a lot.

The rabbits that generally get sent to the Processor the most are my New Zealand Whites and a few Californians. I don't breed primarily for that, again. But I have lived on a farm and have been in a family of avid sportsmen for my whole life, and so you learn that somethings just can't be avoided. It doesn't make me any less of a person I just think that as long as things are done ethically there is nothing wrong with selling rabbits for meat. Also, may I add that a main part of my rabbits are also consumed by people. 

I hope that nobody out there takes offense as to what is being done and I hope that they try to see all points of view. I am also one who keeps rabbits as pets, I become attached to them and I love every one of them, it's just that you can never keep them all. It becomes too expensive and I simply can not afford it. 

Kat

Where do I sell them: My feed store owner buys a few every now and then, I live around a lot of amish and so they buy and also I have a very large family and so my aunts and uncles love rabbit if it's done the right way. 



Here's one of my babies now


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## Buck Jones (May 1, 2005)

On of the things this Forum prides itself on is being open to all aspects of rabbit husbandry and information if the dialogue is done in a kind and respectful manner, much like your explanation of your meat producing activites.

You are welcomed here and if anyone should take offense, perhaps, they are in the wrong place and should think about moving on.

We can all learn from one another.

Buck


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## cirrustwi (May 1, 2005)

I just wanted to thank you for this thread. I'm going to be starting to breed mini rex in the summer or fall. I'm starting with just 2, I already have my doe and buck, I just don't have the space to breed right now and my buck is still too young. This thread has been very informative.

Jen


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## TinysMom (May 1, 2005)

I'm really enjoying this thread so much and getting some great information. I thought I would share a bit about my possible plans and maybe continue to get input.

BTW - I was not mad about the rabbit production for meat...I couldn't do it but I understand about it. 

Ok..here are my thoughts and plans and I hope to hear more comments. 

I want to start with either three buns or five buns. I want a sable point male lionhead, and a black female and a tort female. I definitely want all of my lionheads to have the double mane gene. I'm thinking that I want the male to be a teddy bear type lionhead (lots and lots of fur) and the females to be the more traditional lionhead. 

If I were to start with five buns...I would add another male and another female. I would get a black male and I'm not sure about the female...possibly a sable point. I really really like the black, sable point and tort colors. I like the idea that possibly I could also come up with siamese point too with some combinations of breeding.

At some point, I want to start working towards BEW (blue eyed whites). I know they aren't showable at this time or in the immediate future under the proposed lionhead standards - but I think they look beautiful.

My goals for breeding are twofold. #1 - I love genetics and it would give me an outlet for "creativity" in a way. I'm in my mid-forties and have mainly an empty nest and I could use this outlet for some "fun". 

#2 is the fact that I love the lionhead breed and I would like to build interest in them. I would love to be able to provide lionheads in my local area for a reasonable price - but also hopefully produce lionheads that other breeders would like and others would like for show too. 

I recognize the fact that I would have to travel 3 hours to shows and I am thinking that I would plan in advance to go to the San Antonio and San Angelo shows to get my name out there. I also would have a website.

I've visited several lionhead websites and I know the "look" I want for my lionheads and the bloodlines I want to use. I emailed a gal in California (where I'm getting my holland lop) and we were talking about lionheads and I said I'd like to use her bloodline. She advised me to purchase from the gal where I got my lionheads because they use the best of her bloodline - and it would save me shipping. In fact, the two gals here in Texas who sell lionheads and use the Cimmaron bloodlines (along with others)come highly recommended by Gail Gibbons and several breeders I respect. It helps that Suzan of Savannah Lionheads is willing to take me under her wing and mentor me.

One of the things that is really on my heart is educating my buyers. I noticed on the ARBA website that they have brochures on rabbit care and you can get a mixture of 500 for$10. I'm going to get the ones on house training a rabbit and rabbit care and I forget the third one...and make sure my buyers get them. I'm also going to develop my own brochure about how much to feed per pound of weight and what about greens, etc. 

Ok.....comments? Suggestions? Thoughts?

I know of two females I'm looking at....one is an F3 (hybrid) and not purebred. Yet, I'm fascinated by her. So I'm thinking about her...whereby I KNOW I love the looks of the other one but I've been told she's a bit standoffish. She throws great babies though...

Oh well - I better quit before I write a book.

Peg


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## pamnock (May 1, 2005)

Sounds like you are off to an excellent start!

Pam


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## KatsMeowTree (May 1, 2005)

May I just add that the brochures are very informative and I use them myself for the young 4-Hers starting out.Good luck with the lion heads (I share your interest in genetics and I'm hoping to get into the Broken New Zealands they're working on)

Kat


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## KatsMeowTree (May 1, 2005)

Thank you all for understanding. I know when I was here under "kallycoo" and posted about meat rabbits I had many people upset at me. Thank you for understanding.

Kat


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## Dwarf_Angel04 (May 1, 2005)

a. Why did you choose to start breeding? Do you still enjoy it? (How long have you been breeding?)

*I have no idea why I started breeding rabbits LOL! Like many others it started out as a 4-H project and poofed from there. I love raising rabbits and attending shows! It's my LIFE! LOL! There are so many life aspects you can achieve from raising rabbits. They have sure helped me in dealing with death, birth, and responsiblity. *

b. What is your biggest challenge in breeding? Do you have a hard time finding homes and buyers?

*For a while my biggest challenge was getting does to breed, take and raise a litter. Whoever came up with the saying "Breed like rabbits"sure didn't raise rabbits LOL! When ya want does to breed they won't breed worth a hoot. Also when you don't want to breed them is when they are ready! *

*I don't have too much of a problem selling rabbits. I'm not in the rabbits for the money so I sell cheap to get people 'in' the breed. I raise a 'not so popular' breed so the cheaper I sell, the more people are willing to buy and the more exhibitors we get. *


d. I'd like to hear any special thoughts/comments (even if they're recommendations against breeding) because we want to think everything through.

*Just remember that Lionheads aren't accepted by ARBA yet however they are in the process. They can't compete for Best 4 Class or obtain Grand Champion Legs (correct me if I'm wrong there Pam).Therefore the amount of shows they can show at are limited. I do believe their national club is doing the sweepstakes and quality points tho. 
I've had a few people get out of Lionheads because they say there are a few different standards going around. Therefore, it gets a bit confusing on what they are wanting for the breed. However, I'm not for sure if there are different standards floating around. 
Just a few things to keep in mind. *

*Good Luck with your new 'goal/hobby'! It does sound as if you are heading the the right direction! *


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## TinysMom (May 2, 2005)

I have found a doe I'm interested in.She's double-maned and I really like her look. However, she's not in my original color scheme. I'm going to attach a couple of links to her. 

I think I'm fascinated with her because I am so interested in the genetics and I am wondering what colors she would give me in a litter if she was mated with a sable point or a black male. 

http://home.austin.rr.com/akrabbitry/Mar.%202005%20002%20(Small).jpg

http://home.austin.rr.com/akrabbitry/Mar.%202005%20001%20(Small).jpg

She's located about 235 miles from me.....so I'm not in a big hurry to run up and get her.

Oh, she's 8 months old.

Comments? Thoughts?

Peg


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## dixonsrabbitry (May 2, 2005)

a. Why did you choose to start breeding? Do you still enjoy it? (How long have you been breeding?)

I started off with 4-h. Then branched off to showing.

b. What is your biggest challenge in breeding? Do you have a hard time finding homes and buyers?


When i riased mini lops i couldnt practically give the rabbits away because there is som many of them up here. I guess it really depends on what you have, and how good your breeding lines really are. I know there are a lot of lion head breeders here in michigan. Some are good breeders, and a lot more are backyard breeding them(because they do go for a lot of money in some places up here). When I started off in the chins, i also had a hard time selling babies as breeders and show stock. bUt since my one little buckwon best of group at our fall convention last year, its starting to turn some heads. When i mean turning heads, I mean that the judges have since then started really taking a good look at the SC's after wards when they started going up for best in 4-class or group. Before then they didnt really bother looking at them. And I am having and easier time selling my stock,since my rabbits are known to pop up on the tables to give the other more popular breeds a good run for their money for the top places in the show.

Also something to consider would be to try and set up some sort of screening process, like thoroughly questioning a potential buyer, and go with your gut instinct on them. Always offer a take back policy with all of your buyers. Your going to run into people that are responsible for the rabbit you are selling them, and others that aren't. you really want to watch out for those bad breeders because they will do you in in a minute. Ive run into more then my share of those during the last year then what I would really like to have met. Basically try to be as responsible as possible for anything you sell. 

c. What resources would yourecommend for us to read? What would you recommend we have on hand besides cages & supplies? (Certain medicines?) 

get a hold of the arba guide book to raising better rabbits and cavies and thoroughly read it. Theres a lot of good information in there on home vet care, breeding, and even pet owning. Storeys book to raising rabbits is another good one. 

At one piont or another you are going to run into someone looking for a house pet and nothing more. Although I am not too keen on using websites as my main source of info, here is something that would help you out in case you get a pet owner carefully seeking you out, and wanting to know about keeping a house bunny indoors. Just beware that it also links to some mild anti-breeding, and helpful responsible breeding stuff. it was put together by a good friend of mine that I know personallywho sees a lot of the bad side of breeding. She works closely with rescue, has some very good breeding ideas to help with the pet population problem,and really has her heart into helping out pet owners, andgood breedersselling pets to pet owners. This person is not against breeding. But has gone as far as helping me to set up a potential pet owner with a vet to spay or nueter their rabbit, and feed me any information that I needon house bunnies. She's very knowledgeable on feeding veggies and a balanced pelleted diet, litter training, housing indoors and outdoors. She has asked for input on the site from breeders like me, and rescue workers. So your gonna see a bit of a mixture here. Its also become my belief that breeders and rescuers can benefit from and learn from each others experiencesif they work together.Sadly I dont see that happening too often. 

Heres the link. BTW the veggie feeding idea she talks about does work.Because I have experimented with it on my own show rabbits. They looked great on it. 

http://www.petinfopackets.com/rabbits/rabbitinfopacket.html

Hopefully what I have said helps.


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## bluebird (May 2, 2005)

Im not a professional breeder im a hobby breeder but the colors you want to breed to sable point are going to produces mutty colors and you wont get sable points in the first generation unless they carry sable point. I breed to have rabbits to show.Yes is till enjoy it. Biggest challenge is getting a near perfect buck. Rabbits are harder to sell than puppies. Coccdiosis medicine. treat regularly if you show. Rabbits never breed when you want them too.small show type does in many breeds are too small to breed. I wish you luck if you decide to breed. Develop a thick skin. there are going to be times when rabbits must be put down. bluebird


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## RaspberrySwirl (May 2, 2005)

I usually steer clear of any of the topics that have to do with breeding. I read them but don't get involved. My opinion wouldn't carry much weight since I'm not a breeder. :?

But, as a well informedowner of many pets over the years and a former dog breeder, I'd like to say that I agree with Buck Jones. I find your approach refreshing. I hope your interest and excitement continues to motivate you in the right direction. Good Luck!

RaspberrySwirl


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## SunnieBunnie Rabbitry (May 7, 2006)

:bumpfor mini rex girl


(Also a gooddiscussion on breeding)

~Sunshine


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## Falls-Acre (May 8, 2006)

* a. Why did you choose to start breeding? Do you still enjoy it? (How long have you been breeding?)*

I've been breeding rabbits for over a decade. I started with meat rabbits from a local source. Eventually got into rabbit breeding for pets, then finally broke into the show arena. I don't recommend starting out breeding for pets alone. That is a very difficult thing to get past if you begin to deal with other show breeders. It seemed like every time I turned around, someone was trying to foist off their ugly cull rabbits to me since I wouldn't care, they were just for pets anyway. It actually took a few years for me to get through that and be respected as a breeder.

* b. What is your biggest challenge in breeding? Do you have a hard time finding homes and buyers?*

Moving the waste is the most difficult for me. I live in acity, and 60+ rabbits tend to emit a rather large amounts of it. It's not always easy to find outlsets for it.Even though I give it away, I still have some trouble moving it. I don't have trouble moving rabbits themselves.There are plenty of outlets, and I always remember that even little rabbits taste good. However, I would recommend thinking this out if you cannot handle butchering. Call around and decide how you plan to move excess rabbits and also outright culls (rabbits you wouldn't sell to other breeders).

* c. What resources would yourecommend for us to read? What would you recommend we have on hand besides cages & supplies? (Certain medicines?) 
* 
Definitely consider joining the ARBA. You'll receive a very good book called Raising Better Rabbits and Cavies, plus a quarterly magazine. There are other benefits as well, but these two resources are good ones. There are also lots of other useful books out there about raising rabbits. And of course, there are several rabbit forums out there filled with knowledgeable people who don't mind helping out.

Keeping spare supplies is always a good idea. You never know when you might crack a water bottle or break a bowl or need an extra nestbox. I'd also suggest keeping penecillin on hand along with needles and syringes. The time to realize you need medical supplies is not when there's an emergency.

* d. I'd like to hear any special thoughts/comments (even if they're recommendations against breeding) because we want to think everything through.*

One thing I have not read yet is the type of rabbits. Thel ady suggesting starting with a trio is right. I'd put mos tof your available finances into the buck, but don't neglect the does because they *do* make up half the genetics of the offspring.However, I would suggest that one of the does be a proven brood doe. Ideally, one that had recently come off a litter. Breed the doe immediately and go ahead and get started. There is no harder thing for a new person than the heartbreak of losing the first litter. So avoid it if you can by starting with a girl that already knows what to do with the babies.


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## flemishr2cool (May 8, 2006)

a. Why did you choose to start breeding? Do you still enjoy it? (How long have you been breeding?)

I started breeding because I showed rabbits in 4-Hy family has been breeding rabbits for almost 15 years now. I don't breed rabbits just to have babies running around, I breed to raise a good example of the Flemish Giant, to improve the genetics and temperment. Do I still enjoy it? If I didn't I would of sold them a long time ago,When I breed a litter I do not make any money off of them, in fact I lose money with each litter I raise, so I obviously do not do it forthe money, so I must do it because I enjoy it 

b. What is your biggest challenge in breeding? Do you have a hard time finding homes and buyers?

Getting Does bred, and having to sell the babies, I always have buyers but boy I don't want to give up any of those guys.

c. What resources would yourecommend for us to read? What would you recommend we have on hand besides cages & supplies? (Certain medicines?) 

I suggest every book ARBA has every published! triple antibiotic ointment for any accidental kits from mom, 

d. I'd like to hear any special thoughts/comments (even if they're recommendations against breeding) because we want to think everything through.

Be prepared for every possibility, Stuck kits, peanuts, mom kills kits, mom doesn't feed kits, mom doesn't make a nest, sick kits, sick kits, mastitis in mom, uterus infection, know how to diagnose and treat each problem, and be prepared for any deaths, don't expect everyone to make it or you will set yourself up for heartache. Don't breed buck A to Doe B just because you like their colorsand personality breed to improve something, go somewhere with the genetics, have a breeding plan, think ahead. You should know who are going to breed the resulting kits to and even their kits to in the future, or you may end up with all your rabbits being too closely related to breed. 

We know that if we choose to do this - we're going to buy double-manedlion heads from particular breeders that we trust. My lionhead breeder explained to me that she knows some folks who "backyard breed" lionheads from their pets and have a hard time selling their lionheads-while she always has a waiting list going and her litters are normally sold before they are of weaning age. She also has a lot of requests from my area and Mexico and she has offered to mentor me if we choose to breed. 

In fact, here are some of her recommendations - maybe y'all can comment on them?

a. Start out with at least three rabbits - 2 does and a buck. Put the majority of my money into the buck since he will be siring all of my herd at first. yes use the trio method, but I have to comment as I'm not sure if you mean spend the most money on the buck and then whatever doe fits into your remaining budget. If money is an issue, save up, and spend good money on ALL three rabbits. The buck will pass on the genetics, but that doe is the one that will be raising the kits, and birthing the litters, you want good mom's that can raise nice sized litters with nice sized kits, she needs to produce adequite amounts of milk, make good nests, have a good temperment, and she needs to know what she's doing, And good does that do this stuff, aren't cheap, but in my opinoin if they can do all this they are worth their weight in gold. 

b. Pick 2-3 colors I'd like to work with and focus on those.Good idea, that's the way to go, by doing more than 2-3 you stretch your limits as to how many of each color you can house and feed. 

c. Start up a webpage with lots of pictures once I get going.This will really be helpful since you don't have a "name" yet as a breeder once your name proceeds you and people search you out specifically for rabbits you won't need to advertise so much.


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