# Can't help but be ashamed to be human....



## jcottonl02 (Apr 26, 2009)

"We are too clever for our own good! We are eventually going to destroy the whole world. Why do we have the right to play God? Can't we just leave it at this, and let the world be?"

I agree with this! I am sure God wouldn't have created earth and all if he knew this was how it was going to be, end. 

In a way I wish earth was the same as it was in at the beginning of the 20th century. Practically no technology, lots of space. No zoos to confine animals, wild horses weren't extinct or going extinct. 

Now if the world was healthier, and greener and not polluted. Then God could feel happier. 

Doesn't make much sense but just my 2cents worth.


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## jcottonl02 (Apr 26, 2009)

I know that makes me sound awful for saying that. I really don't want people to think of me badly but I just wanted to know what other people thought.


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## Becca (Apr 26, 2009)

I totally agree with you 
I get worried about that sort of stuff


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## jcottonl02 (Apr 26, 2009)

Phew 

It makes me sound terrible even just to think that. Like not grateful for the life I have. I am so so so grateful for it. I just worry so much about life over the next 10 years or so, and what is actually going to happen.

I don't know whether I could live in a world of nothing but houses and buildings.

There was a labour party representitive come into our college and speak to us to try and get our votes and she was just going on and on about how they want to build lots of houses etc. etc.
And I briefly mentioned that we weren't going to have any countryside left, and she just rambled on about if we need houses, then they will be built, wherever they can find space :expressionless:expressionless:expressionless:expressionless:expressionless:expressionless:expressionless


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## Becca (Apr 26, 2009)

I think its awful  
I like fields! I like the countryside!
In my village they have just built 3 new houses where they can only really fit ONE decent sized one! Its stupid!


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## irishbunny (Apr 26, 2009)

There will always be a countryside, it really isn't possible to have no countryside because we need food, so there will always be farmers for crops, milk and meat. I live in the countryside and farmers are very passionate about what they do and so are there kids, who will take over the farm once they die. They can't build over land if the farmers won't sell up.  Plus there are areas of the countryside that are not suitable to build on, because they are too marshy or wet or too hilly. Also, we have to have trees for different things and for air and many people now plant a tree for every tree they cut down, so that isn't an issue.

The goverment is also taking special care not to build over everything, I can't see how they would let that happen. I know what you mean about humans being dumb and destroying everything though, it is true and we can see that in global warming.


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## jcottonl02 (Apr 26, 2009)

I really hope your right. But soon we won't need countryside for food. We will only need small warehouses where torturous intensive farming can occur. 

Cheap, easy and only a small building needed, right? :cry2:cry2

The farmer opposite my house has just sold his land. A gorgeous, HUGE farm, with countryside as far as you can see from my house. It's so wonderful to wake up, look out the window and just see green as far as you can, and deer etc.

In a few years it will be a huge housing estate. :tears2::tears2:


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## Bunnys_rule63 (Apr 26, 2009)

I agree with you there. As humans, we do some pretty horrendous things to the world, the environment, animals, and sadly even each other. As the saying goes; absolute power corrupts absolutely.


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## jcottonl02 (Apr 26, 2009)

I almost wish we could move back a step in time. Like when people didn't get to 16, have a baby and move out as soon as they could into a new house. I know not everyone has done that, but 4 girls in my year have done that already before even finishing their A levels- got pregnant and moved straight into a council house. And where might that council house come from? It comes from building over a farm- simplistic and sarcastic view I know, but the concept is true.

I know you can't make people stay at home etc. but I really feel that people shouldn't just move out as soon as they can if there aren't houses available. But the government makes them available, so people do!


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## PepnFluff (Apr 26, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote:*


> *They can't build over land if the farmers won't sell up*.
> The sad truth is they can. to all of us regular Joes like you and me you'd think if something is owned by someone its theirs so for anything to happen they need to sell it. But there are so many cases where their are loop holes that developers and the government know about, they can get people gone through regulation, give them offers to good to turn down or drive them out. Sadly today If someone who has the means e.g money to do something they can make it happen usually at any expense.


And to answer your question, I don't think humans have do anything that doesn't not benefit ourselves, seriously, I can't think of a thing that in one way or another doesn't benefit us. This sounds really horrible and I don't want it to happen but if we want the planet to have enough resources for us we honestly would need to cull billions of people. People are only now begging to accept global warming, only 100 years to late. there still are government officials who think it's a big have. I'm quite a passionate person when it comes to the environment lol. Even now when we know what we needs to be done, stop chopping down a football feild of the amazon a second, drastically cut our use of fossil fuels, reduce or water consumption and stop being such a throw away society, still nothings being done and to be honest I find it rather sad. People are so wrapped up in their own worlds they fail to see the bigger picture.


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## jcottonl02 (Apr 26, 2009)

PepnFluff what you say is so right. Everything you've said I totally agree with. 

It's such a shame. On the one hand, you have the arguement that we need to use lots of fossil fuels etc. to transport food over here from other countries, which happens a lot. And to see family etc. and get to work etc.
But on the other hand we don't physically need to use them at the rate we do. We can survive without exploiting them.

We are such a throw away society! It's just terrible. I know this isn't much, but we have our own vegetable patch in the garden so we get a lot of vegetables from there. Peas, sweetcorn, potatoes, carrots, sprouts etc. and we grow enough for us and they are perfect. So it can be done. We don't need to use so much fuel to get food places when we can easily grow it ourselves.

Wind turbines look absolutely horrible- but I just love the sight of them. Even if they look terrible, they look wonderful to me because it means we are really trying to become more environmentally friendly. The only bad thing is....unfortunately there is talk about wind turbines killing bats. The BCT is now saying that bats may be attracted to the turning of the wings of the turbine, and get killed by flying too close.
Suddenly we think we've found a way...but something goes wrong.

Also- what's up with people's legs?!?! I don't get it! I walk so many places, and it's fine! People just drive absolutely everywhere. Of course, some people need to because of location problems, but most people who drive everywhere just don't need to.

I can't get my head around this- we chop a football field size of amazon down every second, like you said. Dear God.....that is just so....so wrong. 

Every second....a football pitch size. We just destroy everything. No wonder species are becoming so rapidly extinct.
And the rate at which the ice caps are melting is all our fault too. It's just a knock on effect.

If there is a God....he can't have intended this.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Apr 26, 2009)

*jcottonl02 wrote: *


> I am sure God wouldn't have created earth and all if he knew this was how it was going to be, end.



I know this isnt a religious debate, so I don't mean to turn it into that. But personally I believe that God has given us any knowledge that we have. That doesn't mean that everything humans do with the knowledge is perfect, but I also believe that it comes full circle and that he has planned check points along the way.


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## DeniseJP (Apr 26, 2009)

In my area many farms have sold out to developers and housing developments are going up all over the place... I hate it. I am hoping that the towns continue to hold "green spaces" but with high taxes in New York people can't afford to buy and keep large amounts of property so the developers ultimately win as people have to eat. Wish they had another way to make money so houses weren't popping up like dandelions.

What is worse in some towns is the newcomers don't like farming... lights, smells, noise. Hello - you idiots moved there...

In my town, newcomers have to sign an agricultural awareness paper - realizing one is moving to a farming community and that if you don't like noise, smells, tractors and combines running at all hours, cows, horses or whatever, don't move here. It keeps the NIMBYs out. (Not In My Back Yard types of folks.)

Just my two cents.

Denise


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## pla725 (Apr 26, 2009)

In New Jersey the state or county will buy farms to preserve it as farmland. The farmer continues to work the land. One farm was turned into an agricultural education center.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Apr 27, 2009)

I hate how all the farmland is going away  It really makes me sad. 

Near where my brother lives, there's about 100-200 acres...I've lived where I am for almost 9 years (seems like more!) and everytime we went past that big lot of acreage, I always looked out to see cows grazing, and a bunch of grass as far as I could see. Now, it's dirt, and paved roads, and house foundations and it makes me mad. 

Emily


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## PepnFluff (Apr 27, 2009)

*jcottonl02 wrote:*


> .
> 
> It's such a shame. On the one hand, you have the arguement that we *need to use lots of fossil fuels etc*. _We don't though, or rather we don't need to use nearly, as much and I mean like we could probably reduce it by half, there are somethings where Fossil Fuels are the only things, I can't think of any at the mo but i'm sure there are haha. But there is virtually an alternative to everything, France has gone nuclear powered for almost everything - I don't like this nuclears a bit dodge for me but its better them than many other countries, solar powered, hydro, wind and alternative fuels. Its kind of strange if you think about it, big coporates and the government are willing to spend billions of money on development and destroying our planet but when it comes to turning greener oh, we'd love to but its just to expensive - coming from the man who just gave his employee multi million dollar bonus's.
> _


And good on you for growing your own vegies, every little bit helps 
And me being the little enviro freak I am, I often count how many cars there are only one person in and have little dreams about shoving all of them to share cars lol. And the amount of packaging that comes with stuff! Jeepers! 

The sad thing about the amazon is that were cutting down the forest in favour of some palm thing that produces palm oils? so people dont have to use petrol. 

And the Ice caps are so sad, there are shelves breaking off that even with global warming scientists didn't think would spilt for another decade or so. And its quite alarming that these are the BIG, BIG mumma ice shelves like HUGE ones that have ice so thick and thousands of years old that are the hardest to split...........

My old house, I'm going to buy it back when im older lol - but anyway this house was the mintest house in the world, its on a acre, big vege gardens, huge establisihed plums trees, not in the country either, and thats what most of the houses surrounding it were like. Abit a bit smaller sections, know ours is the only one left 
they were putting 10 houses on the Falthams section last time I drove past, thats not enough room to swing a cat. Its all rather sad as I said before lol.


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## jcottonl02 (Apr 27, 2009)

*OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *


> *jcottonl02 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > I am sure God wouldn't have created earth and all if he knew this was how it was going to be, end.
> ...



I completely respect your belief- after all it could be true. But me personally, I just don't see why a God would create a beautiful world, and work everything out so unbelievably perfectly so that all creatures need one another to survive, and then plonk us humans down, and we destroy what he has worked so hard on.

I guess it's free will isn't it. God has to give us free will, and we do with it what we choose. But I can't believe this was his intention.

But anyway I am not religious in the slightest lol so I am not too well informed.

*Blueskyacresrabbitry- Near where my brother lives, there's about 100-200 acres...I've lived where I am for almost 9 years (seems like more!) and everytime we went past that big lot of acreage, I always looked out to see cows grazing, and a bunch of grass as far as I could see. Now, it's dirt, and paved roads, and house foundations and it makes me mad.

*That is so sad.  In a few years time that will happen to me.

_*Pepnfluff: And the Ice caps are so sad, there are shelves breaking off that even with global warming scientists didn't think would spilt for another decade or so. And its quite alarming that these are the BIG, BIG mumma ice shelves like HUGE ones that have ice so thick and thousands of years old that are the hardest to split...........*_

It's bad enough that hundreds of species in the ocean are becoming extinct that we don't even know about- have never even discovered, and now never will, but it's even worse that we are going to see species wiped out. I don't think anyone can fully comprehend the number of species that will go. Even one tiny species of algae could affect many species- just a one degree change in the ocean's temperature could wipe out algae, which would wipe out krill, which eat the algae, penguins which eat the krill etc. seals which eat the penguins, sharks that eat the seals. It's unbelievable.

I was just about to say 'If everyone did their little bit, the world would be a better place.'
But no. If everyone just did 'their bit' not a little bit, but their bit, then the world would be a better place. All that involves is using less water and not wasting it, walking places or carpooling, or cycling, growing your own veggies (if u want to- this would reduce the number having to be shipped over, using fossil fuels, and contributing to global warming), helping out the local farmers and butchers by buying their produce etc. and just being aware.
I really wish everyone would try. If everyone understood, and tried to do these things, maybe we could just about rectify the wrong we have caused.

Sadly, so many people are just so selfish. Ignorance is one bad thing, but selfishness is just totally different.


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## irishbunny (Apr 27, 2009)

Wow, it's bad all of you are losing your countryside, that's not happening here at all it's so hard to get permission to build here and usually you have to be from here to get planning permission, or living here for a couple of years before you are able to build a house. I can't see it disappearing here anytime soon.


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## danielrorozco (Apr 27, 2009)

its our free will jcotton stated. we have the choice to choose whatever that may be, both "good" and "bad"

i personally believe thats its just mankind that is choosing to ruin such things and be so worldly in a sense

one day, we will all be judged and i know that im going somewhere really nice forever and ever and ever 
because i have chosen to live for my Lord Jesus Christ


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## jcottonl02 (Apr 27, 2009)

I don't believe in God. I believe we are the same as every animal- no better, and deserve no more than they do.

I think the idea of religion is nice, because it's intention (this may not be the reality) is to help people live good lives.

Even though I don't believe in God, I live a good life, do my best for everyone and everything, and I know I am a good person. 

That's all that matters.


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## irishlops (Apr 27, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> There will always be a countryside, it really isn't possible to have no countryside because we need food, so there will always be farmers for crops, milk and meat. I live in the countryside and farmers are very passionate about what they do and so are there kids, who will take over the farm once they die. They can't build over land if the farmers won't sell up.  *Plus there are areas of the countryside that are not suitable to build on, because they are too marshy or wet or too hilly*. Also, we have to have trees for different things and for air and many people now plant a tree for every tree they cut down, so that isn't an issue.
> 
> The goverment is also taking special care not to build over everything, I can't see how they would let that happen. I know what you mean about humans being dumb and destroying everything though, it is true and we can see that in global warming.


wonder full ireland......lol

we have green belts, and grace is right, we will always have greeny land


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## irishlops (Apr 27, 2009)

*OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *


> *jcottonl02 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > I am sure God wouldn't have created earth and all if he knew this was how it was going to be, end.
> ...


i dont want this to be pointed out, but the world will end anyway sometime. its in the bible..


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## jcottonl02 (Apr 27, 2009)

The more the population rises (which it will if we carry on the way we do), the more the government WILL build houses. That's all they care about. So if they can build anywhere, they will.

I bet they will find a way to level out the mountanous areas and harden the boggy ones, the swines lol


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## irishlops (Apr 27, 2009)

*jcottonl02 wrote: *


> The more the population rises (which it will if we carry on the way we do), the more the government WILL build houses. That's all they care about. So if they can build anywhere, they will.
> 
> I bet they will find a way to level out the mountanous areas and harden the boggy ones, the swines lol


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## jcottonl02 (Apr 27, 2009)

*irishlops wrote: *


> *OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *jcottonl02 wrote: *
> ...



Well, as I don't believe in God, I don't believe the Bible either.

But you are right. 

As the world was started by a Big Bang- there is no denying this- it's scientific fact with much evidence-, and the asteroid landing in Mexico which wiped out an entire species millions of years ago, there will inevitably come a time where either we are wiped out, and life begins again, or the whole world is destroyed.

The sun will die- it's hydrogen is running out- and when the sun dies, we will die. But tbh the world will be dead long before then anyway


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## irishlops (Apr 27, 2009)

^^^^^^^^^^^
near me...


http://www.benbradagh.com/riverroeatglenshane.jpg

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photos/75/63/756346_72170da8.jpg


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## irishlops (Apr 27, 2009)

*jcottonl02 wrote: *


> *irishlops wrote: *
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> > *OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *
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i belive, in god, bible and science... you are right...


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## irishlops (Apr 27, 2009)

*irishlops wrote: *


> ^^^^^^^^^^^
> near me...
> 
> 
> ...


oh, bottom link, boggy land near me.
top on, near me


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## irishlops (Apr 27, 2009)

*irishlops wrote: *


> *irishlops wrote: *
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> 
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^
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http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3479/3314818798_8cb0b8cba7.jpg


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## jcottonl02 (Apr 27, 2009)

Oh wow that top link is just beautiful! You live near that? Envy envy


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## irishbunny (Apr 27, 2009)

I don't think you have to worry about there never being green areas in Ireland or in the UK, there will always be some, there has to be, they can't build over every hill and mountain, it's not possible and anyway they wouldn't.


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## irishlops (Apr 27, 2009)

*jcottonl02 wrote: *


> Oh wow that top link is just beautiful! You live near that? Envy envy


yep. well, 1 or 2hrs away, but still close. the other ones are closer to me.


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## missyscove (Apr 27, 2009)

I'm going to give kind of a different viewpoint here and I hope you don't all hate me for it.

1) We know that climate change is happening, but we have no way of really knowing if we caused it or if it is just the natural course of our planet and no way of knowing if it is necessarily a bad thing. I mean, we know that there have been drastic climate changes on Earth in the past.

2) Yes, some farms may be disappearing, but it's important to note that, at least in the US, small family farms really aren't economical anymore. Sure, it's great to see a small dairy, but that small dairy can't support a family. A large dairy that takes advantage of technologies including BST and sub therapeutic levels of antibiotics is not only economical but also more efficient- more milk per cow. Also, most dairies in the US are still family owned, it's just that they're larger than they were before.
The same goes for CAFOs. CAFOs produce high quality animal products more efficiently than small farms.


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## irishlops (Apr 27, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> I don't think you have to worry about there never being green areas in Ireland or in the UK, there will always be some, there has to be, they can't build over every hill and mountain, it's not possible and anyway they wouldn't.


if thats is directed at me, i know that. im just showing the author of the thread that its in ireland, some of it not protected, or boggy, and we have not built on it.
.


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## irishbunny (Apr 27, 2009)

*irishlops wrote: *


> *irishbunny wrote: *
> 
> 
> > I don't think you have to worry about there never being green areas in Ireland or in the UK, there will always be some, there has to be, they can't build over every hill and mountain, it's not possible and anyway they wouldn't.
> ...


The author of the thread


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## jcottonl02 (Apr 27, 2009)

Great points.  I can definately see that side of it.

There is an arguement from some people that for exmaple, the hole in the ozone could have already been there, and we just never noticed it before. This is perfectly possible.
Also- noone can be 100% certain that we are causing global warming etc. as we don't know enough yet.

However, the overwhelming evidence is that in fact these things are our fault, and we have caused them.

However!!!!!!!!
There is another guilty species!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lol this is quite funny, but when cows...produce gas, they produce SO much methane in a single fart that fields of cows are actually contributing substantially to global warming lol.


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## jcottonl02 (Apr 27, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> *irishlops wrote: *
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> > *irishbunny wrote: *
> ...


I am aware that there is plenty of countryside not built on  but I just see the rate at which we build over things, and I think it is only a matter of time before they somehow find a way to build over everything


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## irishlops (Apr 27, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> *irishlops wrote: *
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> > *irishbunny wrote: *
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 sound. thanks. im loggin off now.
bai


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## jcottonl02 (Apr 27, 2009)

Toodles


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## irishbunny (Apr 27, 2009)

*jcottonl02 wrote: *


> *irishbunny wrote: *
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> > *irishlops wrote: *
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I highly doubt it, don't panic, there are smart, professional people that do stuff to make sure we don't lol


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## jcottonl02 (Apr 27, 2009)

I really really hope that's right.

However my faith in the morality of man is completely shattered, and atm frankly I would be prepared to believe they could do anything.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Apr 27, 2009)

*jcottonl02 wrote: *


> *irishlops wrote: *
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> > *OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *
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There is no such thing as a "scientific fact". In science, nothing can be proven right, it can only be proven wrong.

Anyway, moving on...the media makes things out to be a lot worse than they are. For millions of years, the Earth has been changing. Species come, species go, it's a part of nature. Did you know that humans actually have very little effect on 'global warming'? Sure, we do affect it to some point. We are, in fact, living here. But if we were to completely stop ALL of our actions related to the progress of global warming, the process would not stop, nor would it make any significant difference in the timeframe of which it's supposed to happen. Pretty much any researched scientist will share this information with you. Unfortunately, the general public is not very well educated on this topice, thanks to the media.

I'm sorry to say that humans are extremely conceded, arrogant beings overall. The Earth does NOT revolve around us.Everything that is happening is a cyclic effect that has been going on for millions of years. If anything, we are disrupting natural balance by tying to SAVE all the species that are threatened by the cycle at this time.


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## missyscove (Apr 27, 2009)

*jcottonl02 wrote: *


> Great points.  I can definately see that side of it.
> 
> There is an arguement from some people that for exmaple, the hole in the ozone could have already been there, and we just never noticed it before. This is perfectly possible.
> Also- noone can be 100% certain that we are causing global warming etc. as we don't know enough yet.
> ...



Yes, it's completely true that cows produce methane, but do you know who else produces methane? 
HUMANS
and no one advocates getting rid of them.

On another note though, in 80 years (from 1925 to 2005) the number of dairy cows in the state of NY alone has decreased from 1,347,000 to 648,000 while milk yield, per cow has increased from 5,200 lb/yr to 18,639 lb/yr on average. You would be hard pressed to name another industry that has made such significant leaps in efficiency. The methane emissions have also decreased from 135,278 tons/yr to 108,837. That's right, methane emissions from cows are decreasing but milk production on a whole has nearly doubled (7 billion lbs to 12 billion lbs /yr)

There is also technology available, Rumensin, an antibiotic grade feed additive that reduces methane production in cows, but there are people who are very much against additives that prevent the widespread usage of that kind of technology.

In other words, do cows produce methane? Yes. 
Is the diary industry doing something about it? Absolutely.
When people hear about cows producing methane do they realize the advancements being made in decreasing methane emissions from cows? Absolutely not.

(Sorry, I'm an Animal Science major and we just discussed this in one of my classes.)


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## jcottonl02 (Apr 27, 2009)

*OakRidgeRabbits wrote:*


> There is no such thing as a "scientific fact". In science, nothing can be proven right, it can only be proven wrong.
> 
> Anyway, moving on...the media makes things out to be a lot worse than they are. For millions of years, the Earth has been changing. Species come, species go, it's a part of nature. Did you know that humans actually have very little effect on 'global warming'? Sure, we do affect it to some point. We are, in fact, living here. But if we were to completely stop ALL of our actions related to the progress of global warming, the process would not stop, nor would it make any significant difference in the timeframe of which it's supposed to happen. Pretty much any researched scientist will share this information with you. Unfortunately, the general public is not very well educated on this topice, thanks to the media.
> 
> I'm sorry to say that humans are extremely conceded, arrogant beings overall. The Earth does NOT revolve around us.Everything that is happening is a cyclic effect that has been going on for millions of years. If anything, we are disrupting natural balance by tying to SAVE all the species that are threatened by the cycle at this time.


First of all, there is such thing as scientific fact. As I'm probably not best one to explain it- here is a legitimate definition:

"In the most basic sense, a scientific _fact_ is an objective and verifiable observation; in contrast with a _hypothesis_ or _theory_, which is intended to explain or interpret facts.[21] Thus, for example, it is a _fact_ that objects of smaller mass are attracted to objects of greater mass, and the _theory_ of gravitation explains why this is so. _See also_ Evolution as theory and fact."


What you say about the media is, in a lot of senses, true, however we cannot know that global warming would happen at the same rate if we weren't around.
Scientists know carbon emissions from fossil fuels contribute greatly to global warming, and patterns and graphs have been studied over many years, seeing the link between the rate of fossil fuel usage, and global warming, and undeniably the two are linked. Apparently the link was made after the Industrial Revolution- much work was done on whether humans directly impacted on the earth by causing global warming, and by Feb 2007 the IPCC claimed it was 90% certainty that human activity was the primary cause of global warming since 1950.

*If anything, we are disrupting natural balance by tying to SAVE all the species that are threatened by the cycle at this time.*

Yep this is totally true, but I didn't imply this. We shouldn't try and save any species. Like I said before, it's the circle of life. Species come and species go- its life.
What I will not agree with is humans causing species to become extinct before their time by their own ignorance and selfishness, then trying to reintroduce them, when the ecosystem has already accounted for their loss. We just don't know enough to meddle in the way we do.
We muck things up, then try to rectify things and muck it up even more.
*
Missyscove- Yes, it's completely true that cows produce methane, but do you know who else produces methane? 
HUMANS
and no one advocates getting rid of them.*

If you expel 500 litres of methane each day then I would advocate getting rid of you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL I am joking of course.:biggrin2: 

However, cows account for 14% of the world's methane emissions, so reducing that would not help entirely tbh. It is just a very funny concept. Lol i have worked around cows for a while and I swear all they do is fart lol!!

ETS- Wow animal science major sounds great! I'll be started my Zoology degree this year, and then onto either marine ecology or animal conservation year after that.


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## Flashy (Apr 27, 2009)

If the Swine Flu does what people fear it will then the over population issue will be sorted.


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## jcottonl02 (Apr 27, 2009)

Oh my God don't say that.....that's really quite scary. I'm not very informed on the swine flu situation- what do the experts think will happen?


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## jcottonl02 (Apr 27, 2009)

Although I do know something- isn't it targeting middle aged people? I would have thought it would be more dangerous for babies and older people, but apparently the age more dangerous is 25-40 :S:S:S


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## Flashy (Apr 27, 2009)

:O Are you calling me middle aged? I'm only 26?!?!?!?!?!

but yes, it's supposed to get the healthy and fit and those that would normally be at risk are safer.


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## jcottonl02 (Apr 27, 2009)

Noooo!!!!!! Sorry I totally used that word in the wrong way. I just meant in the middle range of age. Not baby, not older, so the middle range......

Digging...deeper.....

Lol seriously I was no suggesting that at all.


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## Flashy (Apr 27, 2009)

I just can't believe that within a few seconds I went from being moderately young to middle flaming aged. Must be all the stress


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## PepnFluff (Apr 27, 2009)

Not being rude and please no one take this as me being rude, but I'm going to be blunt. I'm just using yours as an example JC and not picking on what you have said . *Did you know that humans actually have very little effect on 'global warming'?* Totally not true, yes the world has been warming naturally, its changing, but its the rate at which its happening is what we have done, take a look at this graph. http://www.2012matters.co.uk/images/Gore with CO2 temp graph.jpg know look at that diffrence, yes we can put a small amount of the temperature rise down to natural warming but most of that is man made. I'm not sure if your saying "humans" like us, farting etc or "humans" like factories we have created things we have done. If your saying farting way lol, then yes we would contribute very little but If your saying things we have done I disagree, I disagree very strongly, there is no doubt no doubt at all that we have made the earth's warming speed up at such and alarming rate. My geo teacher someone who studied all over the world, focusing on global warming tells me nearly everyday that those who think global warming is natural have their heads buried in the ground lol, sorry if I offended anyone saying that. Were studying it later in the year, I am so psyched! Like totally freaking wanting so bad to get to that topic lol.


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## jcottonl02 (Apr 27, 2009)

*PepnFluff wrote: *


> Not being rude and please no one take this as me being rude, but I'm going to be blunt. I'm just using yours as an example JC and not picking on what you have said . *Did you know that humans actually have very little effect on 'global warming'?* Totally not true, yes the world has been warming naturally, its changing, but its the rate at which its happening is what we have done, take a look at this graph. http://www.2012matters.co.uk/images/Gore%20with%20CO2%20temp%20graph.jpg know look at that diffrence, yes we can put a small amount of the temperature rise down to natural warming but most of that is man made. I'm not sure if your saying "humans" like us, farting etc or "humans" like factories we have created things we have done. If your saying farting way lol, then yes we would contribute very little but If your saying things we have done I disagree, I disagree very strongly, there is no doubt no doubt at all that we have made the earth's warming speed up at such and alarming rate. My geo teacher someone who studied all over the world, focusing on global warming tells me nearly everyday that those who think global warming is natural have their heads buried in the ground lol, sorry if I offended anyone saying that. Were studying it later in the year, I am so psyched! Like totally freaking wanting so bad to get to that topic lol.



I think you misunderstood what I have said- I didn't say that . I was quoting someone else. If you read back over my posts I have actually said exactly the same stuff as you have just said  just letting you know.

Flashy noo i feel terrible now. I seriously didnt mean that!  Lol you are most definately young and anyone would describe you as that.
Apart from stupid me of course:biggrin2: who can't speak properly.


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## jcottonl02 (Apr 27, 2009)

Actually tbh I dont know where you have got that quote from because I can't find it anywhere on this thread.

Read over my posts again and you will see I have already talked about humans almost certainly being the primary cause of global warming since 1950 etc. and that graphs show this over time, and I'm sure if you read over them again you can see I have already stated with a passion everything you have just said


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## PepnFluff (Apr 27, 2009)

Oh god sorry, blame the tiredness  tbh I was wondering why the sudden change of viewpoint lol, one minute it's the polar caps then its not happening haha, but now I know you were quoting it all makes perfect sense, excuse my disorentation


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## jcottonl02 (Apr 27, 2009)

Lol no probs at all.

I totally agree with everything you've said, as can be seen from my posts 

And i'm glad you said that thing about people burying their heads in the sand by saying global warming is natural because I totally agree there too


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## PepnFluff (Apr 27, 2009)

Apparently i'm blind, which is half true, but I read it properly you quoted oakridge. I think I was so excited to answer I lost the plot haha.


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## jcottonl02 (Apr 27, 2009)

Ah! Soz i couldn't even find it anywhere lol- who's blind now? 

I am totally psyched about studying Zoology at Uni this year- we will be covering a whole range of ecological modules, and I can't wait to do another conservation year after that.

I just want my whole life to be about conservation


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Apr 27, 2009)

*PepnFluff wrote: *


> Not being rude and please no one take this as me being rude, but I'm going to be blunt. I'm just using yours as an example JC and not picking on what you have said . *Did you know that humans actually have very little effect on 'global warming'?* Totally not true, yes the world has been warming naturally, its changing, but its the rate at which its happening is what we have done, take a look at this graph. http://www.2012matters.co.uk/images/Gore%20with%20CO2%20temp%20graph.jpg know look at that diffrence, yes we can put a small amount of the temperature rise down to natural warming but most of that is man made. I'm not sure if your saying "humans" like us, farting etc or "humans" like factories we have created things we have done. If your saying farting way lol, then yes we would contribute very little but If your saying things we have done I disagree, I disagree very strongly, there is no doubt no doubt at all that we have made the earth's warming speed up at such and alarming rate. My geo teacher someone who studied all over the world, focusing on global warming tells me nearly everyday that those who think global warming is natural have their heads buried in the ground lol, sorry if I offended anyone saying that. Were studying it later in the year, I am so psyched! Like totally freaking wanting so bad to get to that topic lol.


What I said is totally true, actually. Global warming is natural and humans have very little affect on it. Regardless of whether we are here or not, it will happen. And we have not sped it up at any "alarming rate". For someone who has traveled all over the world and specialized in the area, that person certainly has no idea what they're talking about! I'm not going to post a research paper on this or anything, but many, many professors at my college have said the same thing. If you look past the media into real, reputable sources and published journal articles, there is a totally different perspective.


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## jcottonl02 (Apr 27, 2009)

It's odd how we both think we are speaking the 'total' truth isn't it?

If you ask most scientists they will say global warming is most definately contrubited to by humans. 

I most certainly do read from reputable sources who are totally unbiased and they all seem to give the impression that global warming is definately increased by humans.

Like I said before, it is a little bit of a coincidence that very soon after the Industrial Revolution began, the rate of global warming soared- and this cannot be disputed. Global warming has soared since about 1950, because they have data to prove it.

What they cannot prove, however, is that humans have affected it. However, most reputable scientists who study global warming will say they are 90% certain that humans are the primary reason that global warming has increased so rapidly, due to our sudden realisation and use of fossil fuels in such a drastic way.

I'm sure global warming is natural. But not at this extent. Very slight global warming might occur without us, but it is the common belief from educated people that we affect it greatly.

Scientists don't have anything to gain by scaring the population.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Apr 27, 2009)

Scientists have a lot to gain by scaring the community. They benefit financially for their "research" and by jumping in with political parties, they benefit socially too. More popularity= even more money.

This isnt to say that all science is false. But in this situation, it certainly is. Funny what the media does to people. I'll have to go find articles I guess...


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## jcottonl02 (Apr 27, 2009)

No it's quite fine thanks 

I don't require any articles. I am completely well informed, and have the opinion of most, and the opinion that will help save the planet.

But thanks anyway


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Apr 27, 2009)

For anyone who does want to read about it, here are some articles:

http://www.sitewave.net/news/s49p1354.htm

http://www.globalwarminghype.com/upld-book403pdf_.pdf

There are many, many more if you just google global warming.


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## missyscove (Apr 27, 2009)

*jcottonl02 wrote: *


> *
> Missyscove- Yes, it's completely true that cows produce methane, but do you know who else produces methane?
> HUMANS
> and no one advocates getting rid of them.*
> ...


Yeah, I'm pre-vet for now, but general chem is just about killing me so we'll see what happens with organic chem.
I really love it though. Growing up in Los Angeles, I've never really worked with livestock and production agriculture but I really enjoy it.


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## Aina (Apr 27, 2009)

Honestly, any large animal that numbers in the billions will leave a pretty large footprint on the planet. But that is what the planet is, a big footprint for various species. 

The climate has changed all through time. Glaciers have cycles of expanding and contracting. We are just about in the mid ranges of climate heat. But the planet is warming up and this time it is the humans fault and it is going to wipe out all the species on earth and then we will all DIE! 

Uh yeah, I could have a minor by now in climate change with all the courses I have taken, but I still don't quite buy it.

So, in the 14th century we had a mini ice age. You know what happened after that? Global warming!! AHHH!!! Except that time it global cooling was caused by a volcano.

How are we not a natural force and a volcano is? Aren't we just a very highly evolved animal? Any animal that is large as us and have 6 BILLION in their species are certainly going to have some effect, but the planet should be able to adapt. That is what evolution *does* Some species adapted to a meteor, they will adapt to humans.

(Now, if I were to take the creationist view then we would be screwed, lol. God only created a certain amount of animals and as soon as they are all gone then we will DIE. But I am in the middle, really)


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## irishlops (Apr 28, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> *jcottonl02 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *irishbunny wrote: *
> ...


my brother john is an enviromental and civil enginner.

he helps stop people build on things


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## PepnFluff (Apr 28, 2009)

Yeah were due for another ice age arn't we? 
To be honest, recently I have seen very little on environmental issues in the media, I'm not a hype buyer into sorta person. Obviously oakridge we see quite diffrent perspectives, In my mind, which is full of unbiased scientific and quite black and white facts, we have created much of this. Yes the world Is warming, and its melting things etc all naturally but things that if this was all "natural" and you look at the patterns over past centuries, and what is happening now shouldn't be happening at such rates if it was natural 

"We expect in the next few days and weeks, that the northern ice front will lose between 800 and 3700 square kilometres of ice," says Angelika Humbert of MÃ¼nster University, Germany, who has been using ESA's Envisat probe to monitor the events.

That isn't natural.


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## BethM (Apr 28, 2009)

*missyscove wrote: *


> 2) Yes, some farms may be disappearing, but it's important to note that, at least in the US, small family farms really aren't economical anymore. Sure, it's great to see a small dairy, but that small dairy can't support a family. A large dairy that takes advantage of technologies including BST and sub therapeutic levels of antibiotics is not only economical but also more efficient- more milk per cow. Also, most dairies in the US are still family owned, it's just that they're larger than they were before.


I'm sort of late getting in to this, so I'm behind a bit....

I buy my milk from a local, family-owned dairy. That dairy actually does very well here. Their milk is in Whole Foods, as well as one local grocery store chain. The use no growth hormones, which I totally support. (I read that the hormones are injected into the cows' udders, which can cause irritation, inflammation, and sometimes infection, leading the cows to be put on even more antibiotics than they already are. If this isn't correct, I want to know.) So anyway. No BGH. Plus, the milk tastes much better, and stays fresh much longer than the cheap milk that's been shipped from two states away. And it comes in a glass bottle that I can return and it will be used again.
Yes, it is a little more expensive than the "imported" milk. It's actually cheaper at Whole Foods than the other store. They also have flavored milk (banana, strawberry, orange, and root beer), cream, butter, and ice cream.

I think the problem is, people are so wrapped up in getting a lot of stuff for very little money. But we need to re-evaluate what is actually important in life. I can't go around complaining that there aren't any local dairys any more, but be buying the cheap milk instead of the good stuff from the local dairy. I love milk, I drink it every day, as well as make my own yogurt with it. But I've cut down my milk consumption so I can afford to get the good, local milk. 

(So you know, I'm on a very tight budget. But I am willing to make sacrifices for the things I care about. I would prefer to drink a half gallon of good milk a week, than a gallon of cheap milk that tastes bland and starts going bad before I finish it.)


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## jcottonl02 (Apr 28, 2009)

*OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *


> For anyone who does want to read about it, here are some articles:
> 
> http://www.sitewave.net/news/s49p1354.htm
> 
> ...




I thought you were going to find me some *"past the media, real, reputable sources and published journal articles"* not a few hastily organised websites with plenty of cynisism and big words, but don't really seem to be trying to get their point across.

To me, those sort of sites (which could be knocked up by anybody and posted on the internet) seem to spend a lot of their time trying to get a one up on global warming, rather than actually trying to present open-minded theories and facts.

You can easily find plenty of good, reputable sites by typing global warming into google too- maybe you should do that, to open your mind a bit more 

Noone is 100% certain that humans have had the biggest impact on global warming- it is just a much agreed with theory. And to be quite honest, people have nothing to lose by believing global warming exists, because they will cut down on water, electricity, fossil fuels etc. which will most definately help the planet in many ways.

So really, believing in global warming and trying to help; you have nothing to lose.

What a fantastic quote this is from 'AnInconvenient Truth' :

_" It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it "_

Just something to ponder over.

Missyscove- you are going on to do a veterinary degree! Good for you!!!!! That's so interesting and fullfilling. I am considering, depending on how I feel, moving onto veterinary after my Zoology degree. It was quite a decision between Vet and Zoology when I was applying, but my calling to Zoology just squeezed me over towards it lol. I think my passion lies in animals in the wild, their habitats and ecology etc. and marine biology is a definate possibility.

There's just so many things I want to do!!!!! 



Aina- yes I do certainly see where you are coming from- the world adapts fantastically to its hardships.

The only problem is- we have got so clever that we have no natural predators that can easily access us- we have almost 'cut ourself off' from the real world, if you like. We don't have disease, we have vaccines, we have plenty of housing and food (lots of us), and we don't have any predators. (well...we do but we have totally surpressed them). 
That's not natural! Everything has a predator. No population multiplies unless tampered with, because everything is in balance. Just look at what we did to Australia by introducing rabbits from the First Fleet and see what lengths they went to toget rid of them- man made rabbit borne diseases ssd:all because people tampered with life. And now rabbits get these diseases all over the world. It wasn't intentional, but you can't quarantine a disease etc. Life always finds a way.


We are THE dominant species on the planet. I am not sure that was supposed to happen. The whole idea of nature and the circle of life opposes our very existance as a dominant species. It's a whole circle, from microorganisms to developed organisms, of feeding and life.

I just think we should live as part of the world. Not try desperately to separate ourselves from it and move out of all natural aspects of it (not that I'm complaining that I won't get eaten by a bear  )

Bethm- yes I totally agree. We are so wrapped up in our little worlds that it is only us who matter. People buy the cheapestchicken possible, cheapest eggs etc. and don't realise they are funding a mass torture of animals.

And good for your for buying local, fair and morally run milk.


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## jcottonl02 (Apr 28, 2009)

Morally run milk??? :?That makes no sense haha lol.

I meant milk from a respectable and morally run place


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Apr 28, 2009)

*jcottonl02 wrote: *


> *OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *





> For anyone who does want to read about it, here are some articles:
> 
> http://www.sitewave.net/news/s49p1354.htm
> 
> ...





> I thought you were going to find me some *"past the media, real, reputable sources and published journal articles"*


I didn't come across any journal articles on the regular internet (or any good sources FOR IT, for that matter) and am not wasting time to do so. But my point was that something cannot be "fact" when there are oppositions against it.

Most of the good resources I have found are through published, scientific journals that my college subscribes to. I have access to them on the internet, but you cannot get in without a password since you have to subscribe to them. I can certainly copy/paste a few articles if anyone is interested, but you said you weren't so I didn't bother before.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Apr 28, 2009)

*jcottonl02 wrote: *


> _" It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it "_


Just as it is easy to get a man to discover something when his salary depends upon it.

Seriously...the fact that global warming was 'created' by a political party and suddenly we're all going to die in 10 years...that doesn't set off a little red flag for _anyone_ else?

Global warming has been going on for longer than any of us have been around. And only recently have we decided the world is going to end in a few short years.


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## jcottonl02 (Apr 28, 2009)

*OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *


> *jcottonl02 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *
> ...



Actually if you read your second article you posted, you'll see that even the anti-global warming extremists still admit that it's fact that humans have contributed, even if ever so slightly, to global warming.

Well..no I am not interested, because I think i have quite an open mind, and have done a lot of my own research. It's my own opinion, and I think that should be respected. If someone doesn't agree, then fine, but it's my own opinion, and (in my opinion) I believe it is the only true one.


*Seriously...the fact that global warming was 'created' by a political party and suddenly we're all going to die in 10 years...that doesn't set off a little red flag for anyone else?

Global warming has been going on for longer than any of us have been around. And only recently have we decided the world is going to end in a few short years.


*Ah!!!! Now I can see why you are so biased against global warming! No one in their right minds would actually think any of that. If you think that most people think that then you are very wrong! 
No educated, intelligent, logical person believes that "the world is going to end in a few short years" due to global warming lol.
I think what most people believe, and i think you have got a bit confused with that, is that global warming has been around for a long time, before we even knew about it. It's been slowly happening over many years.
Then we suddenly discovered fossil fuels, and it's rate went up alarmingly. So now once everyone has realised the extent to which they have been releasing carbon emissions, and what effect it is having, they are trying to drastically cut back on water, electricity and fuel etc. to try and reduce global warming, whether we have caused it or not.


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## irishlops (Apr 28, 2009)

*jcottonl02 wrote: *


> *OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *jcottonl02 wrote: *
> ...


so. because we have speed it up, its faster.
but even if we slow it down we cant stop it.
look the world is going to end. scince or faith. even both like me, some time, the sun will burn out.
some time food will run out.
some time our world will run out.
its done a good job for 6000million years.


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## jcottonl02 (Apr 28, 2009)

The sun will most definately run out of hydrogen ( I said this ealier), so the earth will inevitably come to an end.

We cannot survive without the sun.
However, the earth will probably end before the sun's end.

I don't like that attitude tho. I think we have to live for now. Rather than a pessimistic attitude of 'oh we are all dead anyway so what we do now doesn't matter', we should be thinking 'Right- let's make the most of life, and the world'.

We've caused so many problems. We should at least try to rectify them- as it's not only us who suffer at our own hand, but all the other species on the planet.


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## irishlops (Apr 28, 2009)

*jcottonl02 wrote: *


> The sun will most definately run out of hydrogen ( I said this ealier), so the earth will inevitably come to an end.
> 
> We cannot survive without the sun.
> However, the earth will probably end before the sun's end.
> ...


oh, sorry for the pesimistic mood of it. i just in a bad stressed mood at the moment.
and typing does not come out in ceirten ways


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## jcottonl02 (Apr 28, 2009)

Not at all 

It's hard not to be pessimistic in the light of what's happening.

I just think we all need to pull together in the world, rather than bicker amongst ourselves over whos right and whose wrong.

We see a problem- let's go about fixing it!


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Apr 28, 2009)

The whole thing was not even a concern until it became a political debate, and for that reason...it's ridiculous. I'm not even a member of either political party, so I can safely say that that doesn't affect my views either. I'm not saying (nor did I ever say) that humans have absolutely no effect on it. But we're not the reason for it, we're not the reason it's speeding up, and nothing is going to slow it down. As mentioned before, it's a natural process. Every single living species on this planet contributes to what happens here. Species come, species go. One of them will one day be humans. But what happens to the earth happens. All of our resources come from it and go back into it. I have yet to hear that the global "go green" is doing anything but making ourselves feel better about ourselves.


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## JadeIcing (Apr 28, 2009)

There is always two sides to everything. Not everyone will agree about one thing. Just doesn't happen. 

If we are a big factor or a small factor doesn't matter. It doesn't make us less responsible, it doesn't stop that we should do better by the planet. 

If we can make it better shouldn't we?


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## jcottonl02 (Apr 28, 2009)

Well said- exactly my point


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## missyscove (Apr 28, 2009)

*BethM wrote: *


> *missyscove wrote: *
> 
> 
> > 2) Yes, some farms may be disappearing, but it's important to note that, at least in the US, small family farms really aren't economical anymore. Sure, it's great to see a small dairy, but that small dairy can't support a family. A large dairy that takes advantage of technologies including BST and sub therapeutic levels of antibiotics is not only economical but also more efficient- more milk per cow. Also, most dairies in the US are still family owned, it's just that they're larger than they were before.
> ...


Keeping in mind that what I know about dairying is from a few days of general animal science classes- I don' t have a concentration in dairying and I haven't taken any actual dairy specific classes.

As far as I know, BST is NOT injected into the udder. Posilac is one BST supplement. You can see here exactly where they intend for it to be injected: the tailhead, shoulder or neck.
https://www.make10.net/FILES/Management Links/How to Administer POSILAC.pdf

A small, though statistically significant, increase in mastitis risk is associated with cows on BST, though I'm not sure exactly why that is.
Mastitis is essentially caused by something getting up inside the teat sphincter and causing an infection. Mastitis is generally treated with an antibiotic because there are regulations on somatic cell count in milk so in order to keep somatic cell count low, mastitis must be treated. The milk from cows that are treated with therapeutic levels of antibiotics- and thus cows that are secreting antibiotics in their milk- must be dumped. One of the dairies we toured uses this milk to raise their heifer calves instead of raising them on milk replacer. Bottom line is that you don't drink milk from sick cows.

Some more information on mastitis:
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vetext/INF-DA/INF-DA_MASTITIS101.HTML


Local dairies can do really well- if they have the right niche market for their products. 
The problem is that most small dairies don't have the ability- let alone the desire or the marketing ability- to process their own milk. What happens then is that they buy everything- feed, milking machines, labor, medications, barns- retail where they can't control the price and then they sell their milk at a wholesale price that they can't control either.
Interesting you should mention the glass bottles- one small dairy we visited that bottles their own milk and makes thier own ice cream mentioned that they switched from glass bottles to plastic and cartons after discovering that their customers weren't rinsing the bottles out and bacteria would grow inside and they ended up having to hand wash them after running them through their dish washer.

As far as the shelf life, yeah, that varies from dairy to dairy. For example, the Cornell dairy on campus can put a few more days on their milk than most can because they were able to track pathogens back to specific cows and solve the problems right here on our dairy.


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## BethM (Apr 28, 2009)

*missyscove wrote: *


> Local dairies can do really well- if they have the right niche market for their products.
> The problem is that most small dairies don't have the ability- let alone the desire or the marketing ability- to process their own milk. What happens then is that they buy everything- feed, milking machines, labor, medications, barns- retail where they can't control the price and then they sell their milk at a wholesale price that they can't control either.
> Interesting you should mention the glass bottles- one small dairy we visited that bottles their own milk and makes thier own ice cream mentioned that they switched from glass bottles to plastic and cartons after discovering that their customers weren't rinsing the bottles out and bacteria would grow inside and they ended up having to hand wash them after running them through their dish washer.
> 
> As far as the shelf life, yeah, that varies from dairy to dairy. For example, the Cornell dairy on campus can put a few more days on their milk than most can because they were able to track pathogens back to specific cows and solve the problems right here on our dairy.


That sucks about having to switch from glass to plastic bottles. I have never seen anyone return a dirty bottle, and I would be completely emberassed to return a dirty bottle. 

Maybe I'm spoiled for good milk, though. I grew up in Manhattan, Kansas, home to Kansas State University, which has a really good animal science program. When I was growing up, my family would often go to the dairy on campus to get milk, it came in big glass gallon jars, and was about as fresh as it could get.
They also have a place on campus where the animal science students sell their products; they have milk, the awesome-ist ice cream in the world, cheese, and bacon regularly, plus other cuts of meat sometimes.


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## missyscove (Apr 28, 2009)

Kansas State was one of the places I looked at.
Here at Cornell we have the dairy bar where they sell milk, ice cream, cider, pudding, cheese, yogurt and maple syrup all from Cornell agriculture.
The milk, ice cream, cider, yogurt, apples and pudding are also in our dining halls.
We also have beef, swine and sheep facilities- all part of the animal science and vet school programs. 
I swear the milk here tastes better than it did at home, of course given that the taste of milk is a function of what the cow eats, it's entirely plausible that it does taste different.


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## Aina (Apr 29, 2009)

We lived in Clemson for a while and they had a place where we could get milk and the best ice cream on the planet. 


As far as peer review goes, once you've done it, you no longer believe it. Basically, you write an article, send it off to be peer reviewed, they tear it up and tell you what they want you to say. To get published(and universities are publish or perish) you make whatever changes they want you to make, even if it violates your research or other things. My dad is a pretty big professor. He says that the leading person in forecasting says that the science used to back up Gore's claims violates 28 out of the 42 rules of forecasting. 

Just out of curiosity. The greenhouse gas we are most concerned about it C02. How much percentage wise are we contributing to the C02 in the atmosphere?


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## jcottonl02 (Apr 29, 2009)

*missyscove wrote: *


> *BethM wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *missyscove wrote: *
> ...





Mastitis is caused by bacteria getting into the udder, usually due to poor environment or milking machines, and is treated with intramammary antibiotics.

SCC increases in the milk of a cow who has mastitis. I think there are regulations on how high the SCC can be in the milk, if it is to be sold. A high count affects the quality of the milk, and its composition, so I don't think that cheese/yoghurt etc. could actually be made. 

I'm not totally knowledgable about it- I worked with two vets for a few weeks and we visited quite a few farms and dairy farms, and I do remember talking about bovine mastitis but I can't really remember anything other than what I've said. :S

It's one of the most common infections in cows, so I wouldn't have thought anyone could get away with selling infected milk?


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Apr 29, 2009)

> *BethM wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *missyscove wrote: *
> ...


:expressionless

Amazing the amount of consumers that go out of their way to find milk that is from cows that are "not treated with artificial growth hormone".

BSTis not an "added" hormone, like some people want to believe. BST is produced naturally by cows, in varying amounts.Using additional BST in milk production is FDA approved, and studies have shown that there is no difference between milk from cows that were treated with BST and those who weren't.

By purchasing "rBST Free" milk, you're basically paying more for a label and not paying more for a product that is safer than milk without the label.


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## missyscove (Apr 29, 2009)

*jcottonl02 wrote*


> Mastitis is caused by bacteria getting into the udder, usually due to poor environment or milking machines, and is treated with intramammary antibiotics.
> 
> SCC increases in the milk of a cow who has mastitis. I think there are regulations on how high the SCC can be in the milk, if it is to be sold. A high count affects the quality of the milk, and its composition, so I don't think that cheese/yoghurt etc. could actually be made.
> 
> ...


Well, while farmers can test individual cows if they'd like, the processor just tests the entire tank of milk so if a few cows have a high count, that can be diluted by the rest of the cows having low count.


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## mardigraskisses (Apr 29, 2009)

No doubt humans have screwed up the earth, but I think we'll okay. I don't believe in God, so in my opinion the end of the world will be brought about by humans. Let's hope that it doesn't come to that. 

This world could be such a lovely place if it wasn't so corrupted by greed and hate.

I don't really believe global warming is as bad as people make it out to be.


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## BethM (Apr 29, 2009)

*OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *


> > *BethM wrote*
> >
> >
> > > I'm sort of late getting in to this, so I'm behind a bit....
> ...


There are some things other than rBST that are "approved by the FDA" that I don't think are good to consume. There are things that have been proven harmful that are approved by the FDA for use in food products. I try to avoid products that have a lot of artificial sweeteners, colorings, preservatives, high fructose corn syrup, etc.


I do pay more for my milk. The milk I buy comes from a dairy that is only 70 miles from my house. The "regular" milk in my supermarket is imported from Iowa. The glass bottles the milk comes in helps me save a bit of energy. Not only in the wasteful use of plastic, but glass containers help to increase the efficiency of your refrigerator. The milk not only tastes much, much better than the "regular" milk, even the "regular" whole milk tastes like water, but it stays tasting good for at least 3 days longer, probably because it wasn't trucked in from 2 states away (which is another waste of energy). 

I am not paying more for "just the label." I am paying more for a higher quality product, and for a reduced environmental impact. I am also paying more because it is a small, family-owned farm. I would prefer my money to go to a family-owned, responsible company, than to save 25 cents and have my money go to a large corporation, while receiving an inferior product. I could pay even more to get organic milk with no added rBST, but that milk is trucked in from another state.

These are all things that are very important to me. I am also willing to pay more for free-range eggs, but only if the eggs are of a higher quality, and preferably local. I will pay more for the cheese crackers with no nasty additives, or for the apples from the local farmer's market. I am on a very tight grocery budget, but filling my stomach with loads of cheap junk does nothing but make me fat and sick. 

I also drive a Prius, drink tap water from a reuseable aluminum water bottle, take my own cloth grocery bags to the store, and take recycling to a drop-off because there's no recycling pick-up here, even though it's not convenient for me. 
We are in the process of buying a house, and one of my criteria is a yard that I can start a garden in, providing fresh, organic produce for us and the rabbits during the growing season. We won't get in the house soon enough to put a garden in this year, but I will be starting compost right away.


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## BethM (Apr 29, 2009)

Thank you to everyone who corrected me about the method in which the bovine growth hormones are used. I don't like spreading mis-information, and am happy to learn that the injections are not given directly into the udder.

Although my Bachelor's Degree is officially in "Agriculture," I studied Ornamental Horticulture, and avoided the animal science buildings as much as possible. (I was always terrified I'd accidentally wander into the big stainless steel room with the drain in the floor. Yuck.)


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## jcottonl02 (Apr 30, 2009)

Same Bethm.

I try to make up for the horrors animals suffer for us to have meat, by buying everything free-range.
We buy free-range eggs, pork, chicken, sausages, bacon, lamb....everything actually.

Of course, at restaurants I doubt they would be using free-range products, which is quite sad 

But I am completely willing to pay more, and always will do, for free range products- I don't think I'll buy anything else again.


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