# I did a terrible thing last night



## JimD (Dec 3, 2004)

Hello everybody,
I did a terrible thing last night. Benji is our oldest bun and wevehad him the longest. Before we got him neutered his was really ahandful. He had a very aggressive personality among other things. Afterhe was neutered he calmed down quite a bit and became a lot moreeasygoing. However he has always played kind of rough. He isnt mean ordangerous. Just kind of a little tough guy. He would charge at me, butthen stop just short and lick my hand. Sometimes during playtime hewould run past me and nip at me or kick up his back feet at me. Hewould get really annoyed if I ignored him. I usually got pawed andnipped for that. He loves to play with his keys. I would pick up hiskeys and move them somewhere else. He oinks and then proceeds to putthe keys back where they belong. Benji likes to play in or out of hiscage. All-in-all we have a good time playing and then he was always inthe mode to be petted, nuzzled, and rasined. He does tend to be alittle protective of his cage sometimes, but usually lets us do whatever needs to be done. 

Last night we were playing and he was in his cage. We usually startwhen I go into his cage to give him fresh hay, pellets, and water. Weplayed with his toilet paper tube for a while. He crawled under hisblankie and played cant-see-me! Then it happened. I went to pick uphis keys, he oinked, charged, and then bit me really hard. Not a nip.Sunk in the tops and bottoms and drew a lotta blood. I yanked my handaway and, all in the same motion smacked him on the nose. I didnt meanto. I was a gut reaction. I knew I shouldnt have smacked him, but itwas too late. I hate myself now. I could tell he wasnt hurt, but hewas definitely upset and maybe a little scared. I tried to reassure himthat I didnt mean it, but he just hunkered down in the corner in hislocked-down position. Im so upset with myself. Its not like me atall to do that. I dont know why I did it. I hate me right now. 

This morning he seemed to be back to his old self. He came over togreet me and stuck his nose out through the cage to get a scratch. Imhoping he has forgiven me or maybe just forgot the whole incident, butI know I wont. Ill never do anything like that again, even if hebites me a hundred times. Im not really looking for advice or foranybody to tell me that its OK, because its not. I just needed toget this out and urge everybody to think before they act. Im sooooosorry and sooooo upset with me!!


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## Buck Jones (Dec 3, 2004)

Welcome to the club! Been there, donethat! Some times the reaction is so automatic, you don't evenhave time to think about it. The Missus has taken afly swatter to one of our recalcitrant buns on occasion, who respondsby trying to "make nice," after she's been swatted. I knowrabbits are not supposed to "understand" punishment, but how did theylearn no-nos from Mom, or the rest of the litter?

We have a bun who used to be a biter of me, at least , and drew bloodintentionally on more than one occasion. After trying manythings to end the behavior, the only thing that has worked, with him,has been to grab him behind the neck and press him to the floor,meanwhile telling him I am the "Boss Rabbit," the "Alpha Rabbit," andthat he must submit.

It sometimes broke my heart to see him struggle to break free, but Iwould only release him after he held still, suggestingsubmission. Then, I would release, pet and praisehim. Some people warned me that he could permanently injurehimself while struggling, and I suspect they are correct, but you knowwhat, I don't want to have to deal with a biter! Manybreeders will eliminate biters from their herds, rather than riskinjury to themselves or others at some later date.

In the beginning, I had to employ this tactic fairly regularly, but indiminishing frequencies as time went on. Can't remember thelast time I had to do it. Either the bun has mellowed on itsown, or it did learn the lesson. I suspect it is the latter.

You just got Benji's attention for a while, and it is obvious he holdsno grudges. Don't flail yourself over it.Obviously, the bunny isn't interested in flailing you, either.

Buck


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## Carolyn (Dec 3, 2004)

Hi Jim,

Cut yourself a break. Benji didn't get hurt and you learnedan important lesson. It was a natural reaction on yourpart. Hopefully Benji won't try that stunt again, but if hedoes, I'm confident that you won't hit him. I'm sureyoudon'twant to ever feel this way again.

We all make mistakes. The only thing you can do is learnfromour errorsand not repeat them again. 

I do appreciate you sharing this story though. I'm sure it wasn'teasy. I respect you for watching out for the rest of us sothat we don't find ourselves in the same situation.



-Carolyn


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## I LuV MaH BuNs (Dec 3, 2004)

Daddy--- why did you tell everyone else that youhit Benji, but you didn't tell me? You've been bitten befor and neverhit anyone... and i dont think he forgot...when i went to go pet himthis morning he went after my hand...


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## JimD (Dec 3, 2004)

Thanks Buck and Carolyn,

I guess I am being a little hard on myself. I'm so glad you two werethe ones to respond. I truly value what ever you have to offer. I wasafaraid that everybody would hate me.

I 've used the submission hold tactic in the past. It's always workedbefore. I guess I just got a little over-the-edge this time.Definitely won't happen again.

Buck, you made me laugh right out loud. All my co-workersarelooking at me in the strangest way. I'm picturing the Missus chasingafter that darn bunnie with a flyswatter. My mom use to chase me withone, too. I'm sure the bun can zig-zag better than I could. I alwaysgot nailed. Probably desrved it, too.

Thanks again,

Jim


P.S.Here's the little biter....


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## Bo B Bunny (Dec 3, 2004)

Oh, look at him! he's beautiful. I can see the bunnytude in those eyes.

Don't worry, nobody is perfect...... he'll be fine.


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## *nepo* (Dec 3, 2004)

*Buck Jones wrote:*


It sometimes broke my heart to see him struggle to break free, but Iwould only release him after he held still, suggestingsubmission. Then, I would release, pet and praisehim.

___________________________________________________________________

I would've done the same thing.

JimD, don't worry I have done the same thing about twice. One timeI made Nepo fall. And then I felt a lot of guilt. Fortunantely hehasn't bitten me any more, and I hope I don't hurt him if he does.


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## BunnyMommy (Dec 3, 2004)

Oh, bless your heart, Jim. You'velearned your lesson. To add to this, we're all human andsometimes make mistakes. I can certainly understand a bitesuch as you described prompting the reaction that you had. 

I think that Buck and Carolyn have said everything that needs to be said. 

I'll tell you, these bunny babies can surely try our patience at times, can't they?


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## I LuV MaH BuNs (Dec 3, 2004)

Heres a picture of me and the biter.... I love him hes so sweet most of the time


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## Carolyn (Dec 3, 2004)

There is an old saying: "Don't wear the Hair Shirt"

It comes from a long time ago in our history. 

When someone would commit a crime, they had to wear a Hair Shirt. TheHair Shirt was a shirt made with a very course hair. It was to be wornwith the hair against the person's skin. The criminal would have towear it as punishment for a specified amount of time. The Hair Shirtwas most uncomfortable as it hurt, it itched, it was heavy, and it wasa symbol to the rest of the community that this person was bad.

* * * * * * * * * *

No one can make JimD feel worse than he already does. 

JimD,

You've felt the pain, you are forgiven, now it's time you continue to be the Good Man that you are.

"Don't wear the Hair Shirt", Jim. 


Respectfully submitted,
-Carolyn


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## RaspberrySwirl (Dec 4, 2004)

You sweet man! Ifonly everyone were as concerned as you about such things. That ol'bunny is just fine and you need to let yourself be just fine too. Mygoodness, if you only knew how many of us have done that to more thanjust a bunny! I have walked out of a grocery store with the short hairsat the back of my sons neck pinched tight between my fingers!:XI have washed nasty words right out of my kids mouths witha big bar of soap, and I have switched them from one end of the houseto the other, looked them in the eye and dared them to complain aboutit! You didn't react from rage or hatred, you reacted from pain andsurprise. I subscribe to Buck's methods myself, and with many animals.Sebastian isn't the type of bunny that needs much discipline, but wehave had occasion to hold his head firmly down and tell him "NO" untilhe understood who was boss. 

Look at it this way....at least you didn't bite him back! 

Raspberry


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## Loppy Earred Mom (Dec 4, 2004)

Stitch has never bitten me she has scratched mefor having my hand in her cage and moving things around and I held herdown and told her no. She has never lunged at me again however my sonputs his hand in her cage and she lunges at him and he pulls awayscared so she harrasses him every chance she gets cause she's his alphabunny LOL. 

My parents never spanked me I always got sent to my room and so thatpassed down I never ever spanked my son he got sent to his room andwhen Stitch is naughty she gets sent to her room. 

Marie


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## RaspberrySwirl (Dec 4, 2004)

I can't say thesame. Whether it was a different upbringing,a different setof circumstances, or just a different parenting philosophy, ours didget spanked. Not a lot and not often, but they always knew it was apossibility. I'll probably end up in a debate to end all debates here,but in my opinion one of the biggest problems with todays youth is thatthere is no ramifications for their actions. From the time they beginto crawl it used to be you swatted their hands and told them "no" don'ttouch an electrical socket or eat a plant. Now the child is restrainedin a playpen or a baby seat all the time and sat in front of atelevision. The result is the beginning of the bad habitsthat have formed a nation of fat, non disciplined children. From thebeginning their sense of adventure, activityandresponsibility making power is changed. Then you move tothe next stage where they are put into childcare, where there is NOdiscipline, especially physical, for fear of being suedorimprisoned. Add to that, studies are rolling in that showthat those early years in childcare is wheremuch of thefirstoccurrences of sexual abuse begin. Though it is chalkedup as being harmless. It opens up the gates of sexual exploration thatwould notnormally occur forseveral more years. Thatsexual exploration generally leads to early intercourse. Backingup....When parents won't tell their kids no, won'ttake thingsaway, give a child everything it wants, leaves a child to be raised bychild care providers,won't demand respect from their childand "in my opinion" let's their child know that a spanking is never anoption, we end up with a nation full of kids like we have rightnow.Foster homes full of them, hospitals full ofthem,mental wards full of them and prisons full ofthem.

I'm certainly not implying that spanking a child is the answer toit all. I guess it's more about an overall attitude and approach thatencompasses it all. I've watched so many of my friends use time-outs,limit sugar intake, no play guns, and for God's sake don't have ananimal in the house! Then 10 years later they have a kid that is doingpoorly in school, drinking, doing drugs, running withthewrong crowd,wants everything pierced andtattooed, is on anti-depressants, hates his family....It's because theemphasis was always placed in the wrong place. I know I'm trying tocover too broad of a topic and probably not doing a good job of it. 

By the way, don't anyone take anything I said personally...I have achild with piercings, andtwo that have tattoos (they waiteduntil after they were 18 or they would have gotten kicked out!) It'sjustmy personal preference for my children! 

Just love your children. Do the best you know how. When we know better, we do better.

Raspberry


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## Buck Jones (Dec 4, 2004)

If we spanked two, three time per child duringtheir lifetimes, it was alot. It was reserved for"serious" offenses, but there was no question it would be exercised asan option if the situation called for it.

They got one "ask" for anything, then "No!" meant no, end of questionand discussion. We did not "reason" with our children whenthey were too young to reason and we did our best to provide an unifiedand consistent front to our children on all issues, and that meanthaving to tell the truth, possibly admitting our own mistakes, at alltimes.

If we were wrong, which happened at times of course, we openly anddirectly apologized. We never berated our children for beingBAD. They may have manifested BAD behavior, and we let themknow of our displeasure, but we always made a distinction between one'sbehavior and the core of their being. Their behavior may havebeen bad (fix it!), but they were never singled out as being a badperson.

One of the problems I encountered in 32 years of teaching was that, asRaspberry indicated, there are too few consequences for young peoples'improper behavior because of legal, moral, and "psychological" moresimposed upon the educational institution by our society andculture. Few youngsters have to stand up and takeresponsibility for their actions and/or inactions, consequently theyoftenthink that theyareimpervious to any sort of control, by anyone, much lesshaving to exercise any self control.

In addition to being ill disciplined, they are often over-praised formediocrity and therefore, develop an inflated, egotistical concept oftheir own self-worth and value. The end result is ageneration of individuals characterized by a sense of entitlement.

Obviously, these caustic comments do not apply to each and every youngperson. There are many fine young people to be found today,some of which are to be seen right here on thisforum. These comments are just an overview of conditions thatI have noted duringthree decades of teaching at a high schoollevel.

As parents, we tend to have our own methods of raising children, whichoften hearkens back to our own childhoods. We liketo think we raised our children using plain, common, good sense and,therefore,we're aligned with and think like the RaspberrySwirls of this nation.

Buck


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## BunnyMommy (Dec 4, 2004)

Oh, of all days!!!!! I _wish_ that I had time to substantively reply to this post right now. 

Raspberry, you see the picture so clearly. My husband and Iwere not blessed to have children, but our ideas of childraising andparenting run right along the same lines as yours. In fact,we implemented the same principles with our nieces, nephews, andgodchildren (who loved us to no end) and had better control over themin most cases than their own parents did!

Oh, bless you for putting this out there. Even if otherpeople don't agree with this perspective it's food for thought andreference for the future. 

I'll post more on this later.

Bravo to you for putting a school of thought out there that's not very popular this days. 

(P.S. I didn't edit this, so please excuse any mistakes...

)


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## BunnyMommy (Dec 4, 2004)

Buck, I think that you and I must have beenwriting at the same time because your post showed up on my end after Isent mine through. 

Oh, I wish I had time rightnow!



I had no doubt that you also would have a wonderfully written/statedargument in support of this point of view. You and Raspberrysee this problem so clearly.


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## m.e. (Dec 4, 2004)

Interesting stuff.....I'm not a parent yet, butthere's no time like to present to start thinking about it, right? Ipretty much share the same views as Raspberry and Buck (well put, youtwo!). I've found a lot of good information in the "non-punitivediscipline" school of thought (basically, there are definatelyboundaries and consequences for actions, but there's very little"punitive punishment" - yelling, spanking, etc.)


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## Carolyn (Dec 4, 2004)

My Oh My, we do get into it here, don't we??




My parents were big believers in "Spare the Rod, Spoil the Child" Ofcourse, it's one thing to get a swat, it's another to get a beating. 

There have been children I know that I wish would've gotten a swat. Asa matter of fact, I'm waiting for the kids on the playground to do it. 

The person we had on recently that was banned was a young adult. I hademailed said person and told them that we would be reporting him/her,we are able to trace their activity, and they'd be banned. The responseI got back was, "I know and I don't care." It made me wonder what thathousehold is like that this person is growing up with. 

If children don't have to suffer the consequences of their badbehavior, they don't feel safe or loved. Without boundaries set, thechild ends up thinking no one cares enough. Often times, in the end,their lives and their relationships don't work well and they learntheir lessons the hard way. 

Life has a way of presenting the same lessons to us until we 'get'them. If you don't face your issues, they'll just be up ahead waitingfor you.

-Carolyn


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## Bo B Bunny (Dec 4, 2004)

While I don't have an enormous amount of time to reply to all of this, I will comment on a couple of things... 

It is NOT illegal to spank a child. Many people have thatmisconception due to a parenting option that was brought into the mixin the 70's and 80's. It is illegal to abuse them, usesomething other than your hand to smack them on the behind,etc. I have a friend who is a social worker and she assuresme this is true.

My children got their hands tapped, their butts swacked and it didn't kill them, or make them mental cases..... yet 

I cannot tell you how many times I hear "You have the most politechildren!"or "what a nice young man!" or "She's just sosweet!" 

My children are taught as I was; that you respect your elders, but Ihave added the conditions upon which they deserve respect.Someone who treats them poorly is not "respected" but is not mistreatedeither. They are to be decent and just ignore that person orbe civil. If the person is actually mistreating them.... thatperson will have to deal with theirMOTHER!

Whodoesn't take kindly to adults being mean to kids. LOL!

Anyhow, I believe that there is a need to make children behave, but Ialso believe there is a need for them to haverespect aspeople.

In a nutshell, I believe in a combination of the way people were raised years ago and the more recent years.


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## RaspberrySwirl (Dec 4, 2004)

*Buck Jones wrote: *


> ....and that meant having to tell the truth, possibly admitting our own mistakes, at all times.
> 
> If we were wrong, which happened at times of course, we openly anddirectly apologized. We never berated our children for beingBAD. They may have manifested BAD behavior, and we let themknow of our displeasure, but we always made a distinction between one'sbehavior and the core of their being. Their behavior may havebeen bad (fix it!), but they were never singled out as being a badperson...
> 
> Buck


These things are crucial! If Ihad a bible of child rearing. I believe these would be in the top five.I have said this for years and so many of my friends have looked at melike I have two heads. I have punished my children and found I waswrong. I apologized. I have corrected them in front of others, found Iwas wrong, so I apologized in front of others. I have has argumentswhen I thought I was right. Found I was wrong then awakened them orpulled them out of class to tell them I was wrong. They will love andrespect you, see you as more human, see you as strong and full ofcharacter, if you admit your mistakes. 

And again you hit the nail on the headwith the difference between a bad child and bad behavior. A child hasto understand he is in control of his behavior. If he is told over andover again by those who made him that he is bad, then he will come tobelieve that he can not change the bad things he does. He mustunderstand that it is the action that is bad, not the person.

Raspberry


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## RaspberrySwirl (Dec 4, 2004)

*BunnyMommy wrote:*


> In fact, we implemented the same principles withour nieces, nephews, and godchildren (who loved us to no end) and hadbetter control over them in most cases than their own parents did!


My husband and I have experienced thissame thing over and over again within our own family. Amazing isn'tit?

Raspberry


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## DaisyNBuster (Dec 4, 2004)




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## DaisyNBuster (Dec 4, 2004)

JimD - Very honest of you to admit that on here.I'll tell you what though sometimes Snowy has really tried my patience,soI can understand you reacting like you did, he pushed youand you just lashed out - it happens.He wasn't hurt, butmaybe he will think twice before biting you again.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the subject of spanking children. I suppose its because my girls areonly young they haven't given me reason to spank them. Alyssa isgetting very cheeky now though being 3.5, itsHER way or NOway. SometimesI can yell and yell at her and she just answerswith 'don't speak to me like that!' LOL and this is a 3 yr old. So ifshouting wont work with a child what do you do. I have never hit herand don't think I could, but sometimes I think, well what am I supposedto do whenshe just won't listen to shouting. 

I think children these days know exactly how to push their parentsbecause there is so much controversy over spanking now, they think theycan get away with it and I have seen a child just laugh when it isobvious thathisMumis doing her best toget through to him. 

I got a good spanking of my Dad and it did me no harm, in fact itprobably did me good. Not often, just when I needed it.I amonly 23 but I think that the way I was brought up (the good 'old'fashioned way) has made me the person that I am today. There's just somany people (even my age) these days that have no respect for anyone -not even themselves, and obviously it is all in the upbringing.Children and teenagers these days are out of control andthereis no way on this earth I will havemy children being thesame. It's hard,and I thinkany parent/carer wouldagree with me. 

I think they need to bring back compulsory service over here again.That would sort the louts out and make them out to be the fine peoplewho have served (and those who still are)in the war. Just myopinion 

Vickie


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## LuvaBun (Dec 4, 2004)

Wow, some really good points brought up here. Idon't have children, but have many nephews and nieces (and now some_great_ nephews and nieces), and some have been brought up with anoccassional spanking, and others with a "Now don't do that, it'snaughty", then left to do what they like attitude, and I have to saythat the better behaved kids are the ones that have the occassionalspanking. They take 'No' for an answer, and they can be taken anywhereand know how to behave themselves.

Bo, you said it's not illegal to spank a child. Well, here in the UK,they are trying to make it illegal, and the children will be able toreport their parents for doing it it. No wonder we have increasingtrouble on our streets here! -Jan


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## RaspberrySwirl (Dec 4, 2004)

*Bo B Bunny wrote:*


> My children are taught as I was; that you respect yourelders, but I have added the conditions upon which they deserverespect. Someone who treats them poorly is not "respected"but is not mistreated either. They are to be decent and justignore that person or be civil. If the person is actuallymistreating them.... that person will have to deal with theirMOTHER!
> 
> Whodoesn't take kindly to adults being mean to kids. LOL!
> 
> Anyhow, I believe that there is a need to make children behave, but Ialso believe there is a need for them to haverespect aspeople.


I'm so with you on this Bo. My kids haveknown all along that I will back them all the way as long as they arebeing honest and truthful with me. I've had some knock-down-drag-outfights with some teachers (sorry Buck) that thought they walked onwater. In the end the administration sided with my child and I.Teachers are not infallible. And as for the respect issue. It isn'tjust an automatic thing. Respect hasto be earned. But Iexpect my children to treat others as they would want to be treateduntil it's indicated otherwise! 

Raspberry


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## Bo B Bunny (Dec 4, 2004)

*RaspberrySwirl wrote: *

I'm so with you on this Bo.My kids have known all along that I will back them all the way as longas they are being honest and truthful with me. I've had someknock-down-drag-out fights with some teachers (sorry Buck) that thoughtthey walked on water. In the end the administration sided with my childand I. Teachers are not infallible. And as for the respect issue. Itisn't just an automatic thing. Respect hasto be earned. But Iexpect my children to treat others as they would want to be treateduntil it's indicated otherwise! 

Raspberry



You know, Ihave my kids in Private (Catholic) School and it's so much worse theresometimes! I have been through the teacher ordeal manytimes.... including just this Thursday!!!!! UGH! They expectso much out of these kids, they make them follow rigid and sometimesridiculous rules,but then they can't follow the rulesthemselves! How can we expect our children to respect something orsomeone like that? (No offense to the teachers here, I am justnot happy with ours at the moment )

My attitude isthat they should be respectful of their teachers and the staff there,but then some hauty taughty snot of a teacher is rude to my child andnothing is done about it.... if my child had talked to her that way,he'd have visited the principal.


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## Buck Jones (Dec 5, 2004)

*Bo B Bunny wrote:*


> *RaspberrySwirlwrote:*
> 
> ...I've had someknock-down-drag-out fights with some teachers (sorry Buck) that thoughtthey walked on water. In the end the administration sided with my childand I. Teachers are not infallible. And as for the respect issue. Itisn't just an automatic thing. Respect hasto be earned. But Iexpect my children to treat others as they would want to be treateduntil it's indicated otherwise!
> 
> ...


Obviously, I cannot comment upon the particulars of either situation,not being familiar with the circumstances, but I will say that I usedto tell my wife to "chill" out when the children came home with "warstories" about their teacher(s). I suggested she take whatthey related to her and cut it in half, and maybe, just maybe, thatwould approximate the reality of the situation. It is notthat our children were liars, they weren't and aren't to this day; it'sjust that young people tend to see the world through self-centeredperspectives and minor slights can be perceived as majorvendettas. By cutting the "story" in half I believe a morerealistic assessment of the situation was arrived at and I saved hermany unneccessary or ill conceived trips to school all in ahuff.

Certainly, teachers can be wrong at times, but mostteachersdon't "lie awake" nights plotting how they're "going to getstudents the next day,"contrary to whatsomestudents may believe. That concept is part of a teenager'sself absorbtion in thinking that the world centers on and revolvesaround him/her self. For the most part, oncetheirown "homework" is done,mostteachersdon'teven think about thestudents a whole heck of a lot at home,because they do havetheir own lives to live, too.

As far as:

"...They expect so muchout of these kids, they make them follow rigid and sometimes ridiculousrules,but then they can't follow the rules themselves! Howcan we expect our children to respect something or someone likethat?..."

We elected to send ourchildren to parochial school for the fact that it did have rigid anddemanding "rules" for them to follow, but we preferred to refer to themas "expectations." I knew full well I could not expect toexact those same expectations from my own students because I taught inthe public sector, but I, and my wife, wanted more, and better, for ourown children.

The crux of the matter isthat our children did manage to perform well under those circumstancesand are the better educated for it today. Their educationseems to have left them with less psychological damage and trauma thanmany of their public school counterparts I dealt with on a dailybasis.

In truth, wemarched into their school in anger once in the six year spanthey attended high school for an imagined indignity conferred upon ourdaughter.after some amountofcircumspection, it was determined I had given her unwiseadvice to disregard one of those "rules" we had sent her to that schoolto learn about, and she was being called on the carpet forit. Once the truth be fully known, administrators graciouslyaccepted my explanation and apology without rancor and rescinded theimpending penalty on my daughter.

In conclusion, I guess I'mtrying to say I don't think we fared too badly from the days in which,come hell or high water, "the teacher was always right," and ourparents would punish us even more heavily than the school had when wegot home. I think we doALL a dis-service when wesay, "the teacher is always wrong, until proven innocent," andundermine his or her authority in the class room.

Respect...I alway gave itto my students, unless they indicated to me they were not deserving ofsuch consideration, but I was, and am, of the mind that as the ADULT incharge I was due a certain degree of respect, as conferred upon me byuniversities, the school system that employed me, the state, and ourcultural heritage. As MINORS, students did not have the samelegal rights, nor responsibilities that I had, and , therefore, we arenot and were not equals. 

I bristled at the notion,that because students were not permitted to do something I, somehow,was morally obligated to follow suit. For example, thecarrying of water bottles by students was prohibited because studentshad been apprehended with bottles containing colorlessalcohol. Adminstrators, therefore, said teachers weredisallowed the privilege as well, in order to provide an example andinsure an equitable application of the prohibition. I thoughtitdenegrated my professional level and adult status down tothat of a 15 year old actingthe fool.

While on lunch duty, Ipulled out a multi-tool to accomplish some cutting task athand. An irate, anddisrespectful I might add,studentrighteously and vociferously complained about the factI had a knifein school, whereashe couldnotand why was that? I informed him that wasbecause I was an ADULT and permitted by law to carry such atool! Not only that, but I also drove an automobile, voted,could sign legal contracts and buy and sell things, none of which hecould currently do as a MINOR. He was erroneous ifhebelieved we were somehow equal because we were both,ostensibly, concerned about getting him his education during thosetimes he was not objecting to teachers' actions.

Listen, I know teacherscan perform injustices upon students and I have had my share performedupon me during my student days, but very rarely are they rankinjustices that absolutely disturb the rest of a person'slife. It is part of life and growing up that these thingswill happen and we have to learn to deal with them on our own as menand women, without mommy and daddy fixing it up all thetime.

I could go on "adinfinitum" with the myriad of "injustices" I had to endure fromstudents, parents, and administrators during my long career.I am sure the sheer number far outweighs those I might haveintentionally, or non-intentionally, performed upon my haplessstudents, but I fear I have bored most of you too muchalready.

Suffice it to say that Iretired after 32 years of teaching, and when I truly believed I was atthe top of my form professionally, becauseof having lostpatience with parents, administrators, theState,and students...in that descending rank order!

I could've handled thestudents for another ten or twenty years, nosweat.

Buck


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## RaspberrySwirl (Dec 5, 2004)

I believe you couldhave handled them for another twenty years too Buck! Itruly wish my children had been given the opportunity to learn fromyou. My take on it is this, teachers are a piece of the puzzle. Animportant piece but just a piece. It takes family, neighbors, coaches,teachers, Friends and church, all in a combined effort with parents tomold a well rounded child. Weakness in any one area will eventuallyshow through somehow and have to be strengthened either by the parentor by the child later in life as life situations begin to arise andshow where those strengths would be beneficial or even crucial forsuccess. The thing of it is, not all of those experiences will be goodones, nor should they be in order to learn from them. That's what makespeople strong, different and resourceful. When working through problemswith coaches, teachers, or neighborsand ourchildrencomplained that "they aren't nice" or "they aren'tfair", we've often told them they need to learn how to deal with thatnow. We've explained that for the rest of their lives they will dealwith people, bosses, authority figures, neighbors, whomever, thataren't nice and aren't fair. Best to learn patience and tolerancenow. As I saidearlier, I believe it takes a number of things to form a well roundedchild. In my own experience I did a disservice to my children by notinvolving them enough in a church family. We are Christians and we area spiritual family, but we are not involved in a church. As my kidshave gotten older and have lost some friends and family to death, haslife issues of their own, and begun to evolve into the adults they willbe,I am finding myself wishing more and more that I wouldhave given them that foundation. I had a personal issue with God (Heand I have since settled it ) But I should have made sure my childrenattended church. My point is this. I've built a strong foundation formy children. I've worked hard and I think I have goodprinciplesin child rearing, but it only takes one weaklinkfor a chain to break. I can see already thatIdid a disservice to mychildren in this area. Being a parentis tough......You gotta cover ALL the bases. Butmaking newparents understand that doesn't necessarily mean always eat yourveggies, or never play more than an hour of video games, isn't what'simportant every day all the time. Am I making sense here?

Raspberry


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## Bo B Bunny (Dec 5, 2004)

There are many wonderful things about ourschool. Believe me when I say that I agree with everythingyou say. Why I chose to send them there, what my expectationsare and the school's expectations in the beginning were what Iwanted. 

Our situation is a bit of a different one. Without going intoall of the issues, I will say that the rules that have been added andthe manner in which they use them ..... can be quite petty and too mucheffort is applied to those things. My children have had noproblems with most of those "rules" but it tends to be a bit.....annoying.

I believe my children because they have no reason to lie tome. I do check out whatever story they have told me and findthem to be truthful however, maybe eliminating an item or two that canmake a difference in my attitude. 

When there are clearly written rules to a requirement and the teachertells a child otherwise..... and tells me the same thing.... there is aproblem. I have to go and show the teacher the writtenrequirement and she is the only teacher for that subject for that gradelevel and she doesn't know the rules? There is a problem.

When a child is absent there is a written rule that they receive thenumber of days out to make up their work. An assignment givenduring that time is not due the day they come back. When ateacher tells me the child should have taken a test the day they cameback (a test assigned a day they were ill) and tells the child how"Your absence is just your excuse for not being prepared" ...... thereis a problem.

Believe me when I say, I do not go about this in an unprepared,uneducated and/or quick to judge manner. However I am gettinga "bad taste" where a couple of teachers are concerned.

Our middle school is very hard. It is very good in many waysbut very bad in others. It has a few problems that can makeit very hard to deal with. My daughter will most likely neverwalk through those halls. I am 99.9% sure I will move her tothe public schools before that. 

6 hours of homework in one night? I thought it was just mychild who can be a bit unfocused but a genius as well. Nope,it was the entire grade level. 

18 hours of homework over one weekend? What is it that they do in school hours?

I could go on and on. 

I love our school for elementary grades. I loved it the day Iwalked in and cried joyous tears when my son got in. It'sbeen the best choice for them, I have no doubt, but there are issues aswith any school. I just get frustrated!


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## Buck Jones (Dec 5, 2004)

*RaspberrySwirl wrote:*


> ...Being a parent istough......You gotta cover ALL the bases. Butmaking newparents understand that doesn't necessarily mean always eat yourveggies, or never play more than an hour of video games, isn't what'simportant every day all the time. Am I making sensehere?
> 
> Raspberry


Absolutely! No matter how hard we try, we are apt to come up short in some manner because we are not perfect.

Years ago I had the opportunity to receive some guidance from a verywise man. I had some issues regarding my parents and believedthey had "failed" or "short changed" me in some importantaspects. I was disappointed and angry with them because theyhad not met up to the challenge of being the parents I judged theyshould have been, consequently leaving me with "personal problems andinadequacies" that interfered with my happpiness.

The wise man asked if I believed my parents had done theirbest? My reply was yes, but it was notenough. His response was, "How can you be angry with someonewho did their best?" 

I said, "But, it wasn't adequate and now I have all these 'problems'"

He said, "Yes, and now what are YOU going to do about them?Your parents gave it their best and could give no more, for whateverreasons. How can you remain so angry at them?The'problems'are now yours andhow areYOU going to deal with them?"

Never needed to see another therapist for my whole life!

Buck


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## RaspberrySwirl (Dec 5, 2004)

*Buck Jones wrote:*


> Years ago I had the opportunity to receive some guidancefrom a very wise man. I had some issues regarding my parentsand believed they had "failed" or "short changed" me in some importantaspects. I was disappointed and angry with them because theyhad not met up to the challenge of being the parents I judged theyshould have been, consequently leaving me with "personal problems andinadequacies" that interfered with my happiness.
> 
> The wise man asked if I believed my parents had done theirbest? My reply was yes, but it was notenough. His response was, "How can you be angry with someonewho did their best?"
> 
> ...


Wow Buck, that is SO Big! We had parallelexperiences....I sure wish I had all the money I spent on therapy backin my pocket. I put myself through hell and back looking for answers. Ididn't find them until after my Mom died, which I will always regret.But I think it was meant to be. Right after she died I found myselfsmothering in grief because I hadn't put aside the kind of "problems"you spoke of that I had with Mom. She died suddenly and unexpectedly.In my churning thoughts and while beating myself up emotionally, Irealized that I missed her so much, even though I hadn't really likedwho she was in the last years. Then it dawned on me"I hadbeen so angry at her for not being who I wanted her to be that I didn'tappreciate her for who she was." That was the beginning of my forgivingmy Mom and my healing. I stepped outside of the box and looked back andrealized that as your wise friend showed you, my Mom had done the bestshe knew how. I've since heard a quote through Oprah from Maya AngelouI believe that goes something like "We do the best we know how. When weknow better, we do better." I like that. 

I try not to make the same mistakes thatmyparents made that hurt me so much, but I'm quite certain Iam making my own instead. When I know better, I hope to do better.:?

Raspberry


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## Buck Jones (Dec 5, 2004)

*RaspberrySwirl wrote: *


> ...Then it dawned on me"I hadbeen so angry at her for not being who I wanted her to be that I didn'tappreciate her for who she was...."
> I try not to make the same mistakes thatmyparents made that hurt me so much, but I'm quite certain Iam making my own instead. When I know better, I hope to do better.:?
> 
> Raspberry




Wow! Does that ever sum up the whole situation quite succinctly! 

Pleased to meet ya, Friend, and I suspect my "wise man" would've liked to make your acquaintance as well.

Buck


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## Stephanie (Dec 5, 2004)

Wow, you guys are really giving me food for thought and I wish I had logged on earlier to be a part of this. 

I don't have children yet, but we plan on having them soon. Many pointswere made that I really hold hard to, such as the unified front thatparents need to make together. My own childhood was, well, less thandesirable. I am partly afraid of having my own children because I donot want them going through what my three brothers and I had to gothrough. Having a single mom who worked all the time made it hard. Mydad just wasn't there.

As far as the spanking thing goes, I agree with you guys. Yes, spankingis ok, on a moderate level, such as not beating your kid to a pulp forspilled milk. Some kids need it, I think. We're all different,includingas children, sometimes especially them! To me,spanking is for those extreme circumstances, and not something to bedone often or lightly. I think it lays a boundry down for a child. Notsure if I'm making sense here. But I think I'm from the same timeperiod, so to say, as Raspberry is, with the spanking things. One ofthose "Uh oh, I really messed up here." When I was a kid and had to getspanked, I knew I deserved it! 

Oh. I recently wentoff the pill too.  Not trying, but nottrying to not have any at the same time. lol I've only told my bestfriend, but not my family yet. Don't want pressure from them to havekids (my dad is all but begging me at this point). You all are myfamily though, and I've been dying to tell someone.


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## Buck Jones (Dec 5, 2004)

My. how nice of you to share that...with us, your bunny Internet family.

I don't usually share the things above that I wrote withquite anyone, either. Things like that, and your decision,foranother example,are reserved by me for people whom I careabout and I think are genuinely interested. Some familymembers don't necessarily fit into either of those two categories,unfortunately.

Buck


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## Stephanie (Dec 5, 2004)

Well, it's one of those things where I would behounded constantly. All with the best intentions, of course. My familyhas been waiting for many years for me to make an announcement likethis. I am thirty soon, after all. 

I've been prepping my body for a bit though, eating better, working outon a regular basis, taking folic acid and all of that good stuff. Thisis just the next step. Dave and I have been talking about thingsconcerning children recently (obviously), and how we disclipline themhas been one of the topics. I feel that some parents don't reallydiscuss these things beforehand and expect everything to fall intoplace. 

Funny, a year ago we were both like "We don't want kids for a longtime" to, "When we have kids" to "Let's go off birth control". lol


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## RaspberrySwirl (Dec 5, 2004)

*Buck Jones wrote:*


> My. how nice of you to share that...with us, your bunnyInternet family.
> 
> I don't usually share the things above that I wrote withquite anyone, either. Things like that, and your decision,foranother example,are reserved by me for people whom I careabout and I think are genuinely interested. Some familymembers don't necessarily fit into either of those two categories,unfortunately.
> 
> Buck


DITTO! You guys are my chosen family! 

And Steph, it's not to late to join our chat!Glad to have you jump right in! With that pill thing....When I droppedit both times, I wasn't trying either and was pregnant the next monthboth times! 

Raspberry


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## Jems (Dec 6, 2004)

Wow! I was surprised as I read through the poststhat there was no one jumping in to argue the other side-nospanking. 

I have on occasion spanked my children. It is saved as a lastresort but they know it's always out there should they choose to pushthat far and I think it helps keep them in line better. Myboys are 14 and about to turn 12-my 14 year old is driving meCRAZY!!!! It is impossible to "put" him in his room should hechoose not to go and grounding doesn't phase him most of the time as hedoesn't often go anywhere or have friends over much. Can'ttake the phone away because he very seldom uses it anyway. SoI need to have something to keep him in check.14years old and a football player to boot-the spankingsprobablywouldn't even hurt if he needed one but he doesn'twant one. A couple more years I will be able to take thedriving privledges away!!!:shock: EEEKKK!! Scary thought.


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## RaspberrySwirl (Dec 6, 2004)

That is a verydifficult stage. I had a son that was a bit like that in the sense thathe wasn't as social at 14 as his sisters were or as his older brotherwas. Girls didn't come into the picture for years and it wasn't untillast year that he even cared to talk on the phone! The only thing thatever worked much for me with him was taking away his gamingprivileges.I don't know if your son does that but we'vealways had ninendo, playstation, xbox or something around here, so it'salways been a big deal. I will mention that at one point I took awayhis dessert and snack privileges but have sense learned not to rewardor punish children with food. I've had bad eating habits and want toavoid passing them on to my kids. Using food as a "tool" of any kind isa really bad idea. Does he have any hobbies or activities that he takespart in that he needs money to do? A weekly league or something? Makehim earn his money with chores to go to those things. The worse hisbehavior, the more disrespectful he is to you, the more chores that hasto be done to earn the money...just an idea. Good Luck!

Raspberry


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## Jems (Dec 10, 2004)

Thanks Raspberry,

No he doesn't do anything to need moneyexcept on rare occasions he will ask to go to the movies with afriend. He has a PS2 he shares with his brother but seldom dothey use it. He has been in counseling for a while and hiscounselor suggested the other day he be evaluated for ADD/ADHD becausehe has a hard time keeping him on task to work throughanything. I will have him evaluated I guess but am unsureabout wether I want him medicated or not. On one hand if ithelps him be more focused in school and do better it would be good buton the other hand I don't want him labled either. I don'tknow. I guess I'll cross that bridge when I come toit. -Thanks

Jen


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## m.e. (Dec 10, 2004)

> I will have him evaluated I guess but amunsure about wether I want him medicated or not. On one hand if ithelps him be more focused in school and do better it would be good buton the other hand I don't want him labled either. I don't know. I guessI'll cross that bridge when I come to it.



My sister has ADD-tendancies (I say it that way, because she was neverofficially diagnosed, but it's quite plainly clear that she is whatwould be clinically considered an ADD kid). My parents are a littleradical in that they do not see ADD/ADHD as anything more than adifferent way to process things. They'd never medicate my sister forany reason. To that end, my sister is homeschooled (she's 10). Schoolis tailored around her, and we're so used to "Hannah's" way of thingsnow, it doesn't seem that odd. There's the occasional incident andwe'll roll our eyes and say, "There's Hannah for ya..."

She does have the ability to focus on certain things, though. We highlymoniter her video game usage, and ended up taking away her Gameboybecause she was borderline obsessive. ADD kids *don't* have an"attention deficit", as the name suggests. If they did they'd never beable to pay attention to anything. An ADD kid has_hyper_-attentiveness. Everything catches their attention! Andsome things are more attention-grabbing than others. The key is to findsomething productive that they can pay attention to and encourage themin it.

Hannah found something she can focus very well on: art. She starteddrawing when she was three, said "art is my life" at age five, and nowis quite an astounding artist for a ten year old. She has an uncannyability to zone out and draw for hours and hours on end. This is thesame kid who can't pay attention for more than 10 minutes on a schoolsubject. So it's a real balancing act. The thing is, ADD kids grow upinto some of the most interesting and intelligent people you'll meet.Because of the way their mind works, they often have a real depth ofknowledge in one area, and grow up to be very skilled and creative inthat field.


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## Jems (Dec 10, 2004)

*m.e. wrote:*


> ADD kids *don't* have an "attention deficit",as the name suggests. If they did they'd never be able to pay attentionto anything. An ADD kid has _hyper_-attentiveness. Everythingcatches their attention! And some things are more attention-grabbingthan others. The key is to find something productive that they can payattention to and encourage them in it.


I find this very true with Brad. His counselor said the thinghe notices most is when trying to talk to Brad, Brad will pick onething out of an entire sentance(s) and spin off in a whole newdirection from the conversation. He is easily distractedbecause his mind is always spinning and processingeverything. He is also very litteral-you have to watch wordlike "always' and 'never' etc because he will pick up on those wordsand go off in a differant direction explaining to you why "not always"or "not never" 

He has not yet found anything that really keeps his interest.I keep hoping he will find his 'thing' but so far no.

what area of the ME/NH border are you near? I live in Central Maine.

Jen


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## m.e. (Dec 10, 2004)

Jems said:


> He is also verylitteral-you have to watch word like "always' and 'never' etc becausehe will pick up on those words and go off in a differant directionexplaining to you why "not always" or "not never"







Oh yeah,I know what that's like! Makes you want to pull your hair out sometimes










> He has not yet found anything that really keeps his interest. Ikeep hoping he will find his 'thing' but so far no.



Yeah, not all kids will "click" with something right away, I think wewere just very lucky with Hannah. It's an ever growing and changingthing, and he'll probably surprise you one day and ask if he can dosomething like.....play golf. Of course, it may not be that, butyou get the idea.



> what area of the ME/NH border are you near? I live in Central Maine.



I live in the Berwicks , bout ten minutes from the border. Go tochurch, work and shop in the Dover/Somersworth/Rochester area. Go toschool in Portland/Saco/Sanford/Gorham (gotta love the multiplecampuses). Volunteer and take the animals to the vet in Kennebunk. I'mall over the place!


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## Bo B Bunny (Dec 10, 2004)

*Jems, Who are his counselors? are they schoolor medical personnel? The reason I ask is that it is verylate at 14 to be finding ADD/ADHD. *

*My son was in 3rd grade when he was diagnosed with ADHD.He is not Hyper the H is for impulsivity. He would do thingslike shout out the teachers name instead of raising his hand when heknew the rules and all. He couldn't stop himself.*

*He is also very intelligent (very common with children of thisnature) and with that he likes to be perfect. If he couldn'tbe perfect he shut down. "I can't be sure to do this paperexactly right so I can't do it at all!" *

*With all of that info.... he has done very well with medications inlow dose until he hit puberty. He is 13 (children with adhdoften hit puberty early) and since last year we have struggled with hisprescriptions. The combination of hormones flooding his bodyand the attention issues are too much to try to handle. Weare actually seeking out help from a pharmacuetical specialist in hopesto find the right medication to help with his focus, and still allowhis jubulant personality to shine through. I can't tell youhow many people say "oh he's such a different person when he's not onmedication!" It's very obvious. *

*I said I would never allow a label or medications. When wegot both the testing done and found he was classic ADHD and a genius,the suggestion of the Child Psychologist was medication via a qualifieddoctor, we did it. His life changed for a longtime. I would not take that time back and not help him withthe medicines, but I sure am having trouble right now knowing what todo. *

*Good luck with your son, be sure to get a good Child's Psychologicalevaluation and know who you are dealing with. If they arerecommended by others, etc. Our Psychologist knew her stuff,she had done her thesis in school on how children didn't needmedications..... her mind was changed! LOL She learned thatthere were issues that were not behavioral. *

*There are also several disorders that mimic or intertwine in thisarea. That is my concern. There is ODD, ADD, GAD,and others that can have symptoms of each when a child has thedisorder. *

*Positive and immediate praise is the first key to helping childrenwith these disorders. Our first encouragement for him inschool became an adopted procedure there and given out as advice forothers by his doctors. His teacher and I came up with it andit was so simple. If he did the 3 things he needed to eachday, he got a piece of bubble gum (I provided her) at the end of theday. He had to complete his daily tasks, not say "I can't"and be able to find things in his desk (they are verydisorganized)..... he never missed a piece of bubble gum that wholeyear!  *

*If he doesn't have hobbies, make SURE he gets some! Notjust the games and stuff but 4H, models, something.... I can explainmore if you like.*

*I won't go on here, or I would write a book (here's the firstchapter!) but if you ever need help or have questions, you are mostwelcome to pm me at anytime.. (that's true for anyone with this as anissue). I have done much research and gained a lot ofinformation. I don't have all the answers as you can tell,but I am more than happy to attempt to help! *

*Jems wrote: *


> Thanks Raspberry,
> 
> No he doesn't do anything to need moneyexcept on rare occasions he will ask to go to the movies with afriend. He has a PS2 he shares with his brother but seldom dothey use it. He has been in counseling for a while and hiscounselor suggested the other day he be evaluated for ADD/ADHD becausehe has a hard time keeping him on task to work throughanything. I will have him evaluated I guess but am unsureabout wether I want him medicated or not. On one hand if ithelps him be more focused in school and do better it would be good buton the other hand I don't want him labled either. I don'tknow. I guess I'll cross that bridge when I come toit. -Thanks
> 
> Jen


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## Jems (Dec 10, 2004)

*m.e. wrote:*


> Jems said:





> He has not yetfound anything that really keeps his interest. I keep hoping he willfind his 'thing' but so far no.





> Yeah, not all kids will "click" with something right away, I think wewere just very lucky with Hannah. It's an ever growing and changingthing, and he'll probably surprise you one day and ask if he can dosomething like.....play golf. Of course, it may not be that, butyou get the idea.





> NOO not golf!!!:shock:Anything but golf. He plays football,basketball, and baseball and I can watch those but I have no interestin golf and as the supportive mom I try to be I would have to watchgolf-ugh!! LOL yea I get the idea, but I still hope its not golf.





> what area of the ME/NH border are you near? I live in Central Maine.





> I live in the Berwicks , bout ten minutes from the border. Go tochurch, work and shop in the Dover/Somersworth/Rochester area. Go toschool in Portland/Saco/Sanford/Gorham (gotta love the multiplecampuses). Volunteer and take the animals to the vet in Kennebunk. I'mall over the place!


My brother and his family used to live inGorham. Now they live in Chester NH  -hate having them sofar away.


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## Bo B Bunny (Dec 10, 2004)

*m.e. wrote:*

 The thing is, ADD kids grow up into some of the mostinteresting and intelligent people you'll meet. Because of the waytheir mind works, they often have a real depth of knowledge in onearea, and grow up to be very skilled and creative in that field.



*How true this is!!! The children whohave this "disorder" are the great thinkers to come! They aretrying to struggle through a "box" of an educational system until theycan gain the knowledge they need to move on in life to be free to thinkoutside of that box!*


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## Jems (Dec 10, 2004)

hi Bo B,

His counselor is a licensed clinical psycologist who I take him tobecause at 14 I still cannot leave him home alone (or withhis brother) after dark and when I do leave him home I need to staylocal. If he knows I am going to be out of town (more then 15or 20 mins away) he freaks out and has absolute horrors. Hehas very high anxiety. 

The counseloris becoming frustrated because, to keep Bradfocused and on track to work on any issue is nearyimpossible. I know it's kind of late to be diagnosed but ithas been going on for a while. I am in constant contact withthe school because he is not getting his work done, or passedin. Often he does the work but loses it before it's time topass it in. This has been going on since at least 3rd or 4thgrade. The kid is so unorganized it is not funny.His teachers every so often give him a trash can and tell him to spendpart of his class or study hall cleaning out his locker because it issuch a mess he can't find anything. 

He is often described as lazy, unmotivated and unattentive by histeachers but they all say he is very capable of doing the work if theycan keep him on task long enough to finish an assignment. Heis actually quite intelligent. He can completely wire a housefor electricity with no problems but very easily distracted and headedin another direction. 

He did try boyscouts but lost interest because he had to work to earnthe badges and that sometimes meant studying.I amnot familiar with the *ODD,and GAD, *that youlisted. I know some about ADD/ADHD. 

Thanks for the info I will keep it all in mind as we trudge down thisnew road. Thanks also for being willing to answer anyquestions I may come up with as I am sure there will beplenty. 

Jen


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## Bo B Bunny (Dec 10, 2004)

Yep, sounds like my son! They areintelligent enough to mask it for a time then it shows up worse andworse as they get older. My son's was caught not due togrades but due to his "emotional" and "organizational" issues.

Everything you describe is classic for children with ADHD.They mature slower in a mental way as you describe and all that too.

My son was TERRIBLY and I mean TERRIBLY afraid of bees andstorms. We had to send him to counseling for that after hewas diagnosed. Now, he's wanting to become a researchmeteorologist! A STORM CHASER lol!

ODD is oppositional defiant disorder and GAD is General anxietydisorder. There are several others as I have said....dislexia, turrets, etc. Each of these can intertwine withineach other with one main disorder. Think of the olympicrings.... one major circle with the others showing up within..... 

Not all kids will show any signs of the others, but some will showmany. A child I know with GAD as the primary disorder showssigns of ADHD within his other problems.


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## RaspberrySwirl (Dec 12, 2004)

Hey all, I'mstepping back into the conversation. I've briefly read through all yourposts but didn't stay on any of them for long for one reason. I havesomething I want to say and don't want to be overly familiar with anyparticular situation as to upset anyone....Probably stepping right intoit here...I've been through a lot of history on some of thesedisorders. Most recently, RAD.None of them with my ownchildren, but with my sister and her family as shehas been afoster parent for numerouschildren and then adopted two ofthem. Also, with several of my very close friends. I'd like to add mytwo cents worth from outside of the box. I feel like M.E is dead onwith a lot of her observations/comments by the way.I'd alsolike to add that I'm totally aware that living with achildwith these problems is different than experiencing itthrough family and friends. There isa hugemovement in this nation to "label" for lack of abetter"it"word all kinds of people. Not just kids either. It'shappening to plenty of adults. I think it was Bothatmentioned an age awareness. I know several people who arein divorcecounseling that are being told they are ADD or RAD.Wehear more and more studies all the time about how manypeople are abused, how many people come from teen pregnancy, how manypeople come from split families, lower incomes, no medical coverage, nocollege education, didn't get a hug, maybe they didn't get milk andcookies enough......you get my point....Life has been analyzed down toa degree that is ridiculous. Life is life. Everyone, everywhere has"quirks" that's what makes humans human. And it onlymakessense that a lot of those quirks and responses to themwouldbe similar in similar circumstances.That doesn'tmean all of us have a disorder! I do believe that there arelegitimate cases of these disorders where counseling and behaviormodification can work miracles. I believe that for children beginningwith limiting their exposure to video and tv stimulation and lettingthem go outside to play, works miracles. Let them use their muscles toget tired. Learn about fairness, compassion, good sportsmanship,creativity and imagination. Outdoors in the fresh air, not in front ofa big box with flashing lights that overstimulates the neurons in theirbrains and makes it even more difficult for them to pay attention to ahuman conversation. Good, healthy food. Plenty ofsleep.Okay, I also believe there are situationswheremedications are helpful. But you have to really researchthese meds. Don't justask your doctor and read the RXpamphlet. Go to the library, get online, read some magazines. This isyour kid! Look at the phenfen and Vioxx drugdeaths right now.Perfect examples. I've seen kids on these drugs. Yes they make themmore able to function in class or in the family but they have sideeffects. People must understand there is a trade off. There aresituations where that is the only choice and the bestchoice.But encourage your friends to research this stuff.Truly I have a girl friend whose husband researched info on purchasinga new car more than he didthediagnosisofRAD and the effects of the drugs the doctors wanted to puthiskid on! :X

RaspberrySwirl


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## Bo B Bunny (Dec 12, 2004)

Very good and thoughtful post, raspberry! 

There is a lot to be said for excercise! I SO agree with you onthat! Children now don't get out and run to chase firefliesbecause they might get west nile from the skeeters...... The sun isharmful to the skin so daylight isn't a very good option for longperiods of time ..... etc., etc.,..... it's like everything is going tokill us...... :?

My kids do so much better when they are out late playing, ridinghorses, working in a barn, etc.,.... I think today's kidsarehaving problemsbecause they aresednitary. They've already done one study on the televisionstimulation of infants. They say it contributes or is asymptom of children with add.....


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## m.e. (Dec 12, 2004)

Bo B Bunny wrote:


> They've already done one study on the television stimulation ofinfants. They say it contributes or is a symptom of children withadd.....



I researched television's effect on the developing brain for a HumanGrowth and Devlopment class, and I will tell you from my knowledge ofthis issue, television viewing absolutely changes the development andwiring of an infant/toddler/child's brain. I personally wouldn't letany child of mine under the age of two near a TV, and not more than anhour a day from ages 3-11. :? The more you learn about the developingbrain, the more it becomes evident that it is _extremely_sensitive to any type of input. TV has been shown to cause permanentchanges in the way children are wired for seeing, hearing, bodymovement, attention span and overall interaction with theirsurroundings.


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## Buck Jones (Dec 12, 2004)

You do seem to have an interesting _spin_ onso many topics, m.e. I do so enjoy reading yourposts. So glad you are here amongst us.

Buck


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## Bo B Bunny (Dec 12, 2004)

Interesting! Infact, it's very strangebecause my son, who has Adhd as I have said, was very very interestedin TV as a baby and toddler. I figured it was ok since hewatched things like sesame street and knew his letters and numbers bysite at 18 mos old. People were amazed..... 

He's a genius, and cannot be fully tested for "visual" learningabilities. They tested him at 8 years old and he did all thetests through high school and got 100%...... he's off the chartsthere..... He learns best when given visuals.

What I truly believe is that some people just aren't round pegs and thesquare ones don't fit into the educational system as we know it.

He has benefits of early learning.... which included more than justt.v..... books, songs, play.... but right now it can be a bit of astruggle dealing with the school and their learningsituations. He doesn't get rowdy or anything but he does getbored with school work. With his visual ability, he has a"photographic" memory. Once it's shown to him, he gets it,"let's move on".....


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## m.e. (Dec 13, 2004)

*Bo B Bunny wrote:*


> What I truly believe is that some people just aren't roundpegs and the square ones don't fit into the educational system as weknow it.


Couldn't agree with you more! My cousin is having a hard time in schoolright now; he's a very intelligent kid, you'd just be amazed at what heknows if you get to talking with him. But he has a slow reaction time.The teacher will ask him something and he won't respond right away, andhe get's penalized. He also has a hard time translating all that's inhis head into writing on paper (though he could _tell _you clearlyand concisely). A lot of times, schools are geared toward one type ofstudent and learning style (he's in a very, very small Vermont townwith one school). So if Jess doesn't learn and perform the way theother kids do, he get's left behind. Not that he's not as smart, hejust does it differently. It's unfortunate, too, because he's reallystarting to feel like he's a "dumb" kid .


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## Bo B Bunny (Dec 13, 2004)

Yep, that's what happens! The kids begin feeling they are stupid or different is a bad thing....


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## m.e. (Dec 13, 2004)

*Buck Jones wrote:*


> You do seem to have an interesting _spin_ on so manytopics, m.e. I do so enjoy reading your posts. Soglad you are here amongst us.
> 
> Buck


Awwww, thanks Buck! You can ask Christine: when it comes tothese parenting topics especially, I'm very opinionated. And I don'teven have kids yet! But there's no time like the present tostart thinking about it, I suppose.


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## RaspberrySwirl (Dec 13, 2004)

We live in a verysmall town with 2 elementary schools, one junior high, and one highschool, but it's a "suburb" town if you will of a large city. When mykids were small my son attended what's called a "magnet" school there.They are schools that are based on individual education plans. Eachchild in each class moves at their own pace. Some very slowly, somevery quickly. Each magnet school had a theme. Art, music, etc. Ours wasenvironmental. We loved it. We spent hours outdoors on field trips. Theclasses all had environmental issues/lessons at the core of learning.Even if that meant that the math questions meant using frogs andcattails, see what I mean? The children has much freedom to movearound, learn in the manner best suited to them, not boxed in so tospeak. They were graded on a graph according to their own improvements,not against other students. My son took off in this environment! In20/20 hindsight I wish I'd left himin thatprogramthrough out his school years. We moved and I put himinto our small town system in the 2nd grade. Hehas alwaysbeenlike Bo's son. 99%on ITBS tests all his life.Scored out of the park on all standardized tests. Honor roll throughmiddle school. By the 5th grade he was scoring at the 12th grade levelin reading, language arts, etc. He also tested at a genius level. Theproblem was, he never, ever had to study. He finished his classworkquickly, got boredwith what was happening inclassand read abook orwould sit and draw. It pissed offa lot of the teachers. Itseemed to aggravatethemeven more that he was a clean cut, articulate, respectfulkid who was so full of untapped potential and they'd only get glimpsesof it every now and then. He just wasn't interested. When something didinterest him, the papers he'd write or the projects he'd complete wouldmake mine andthe teachersheads spin. They wereamazing! He received one of the highest ACT scores in our region lastyear. Was offered tons of awesome scholarships and couldn't decide whathe wanted to do so he stayed here locally. The first paper he wrote forhis college English course was returned to him with a note that said itwas the best paper ever received by this professor by an undergraduate!Then the professor pulled him to the side and asked who his high schoolteacher had been and later called her! But the new wore off quickly inCollege too. He still doesn't know what he wants to do with hislife...nothing challenges him...everything is boring...

Now that I've gone through that long story. I'd like to mention my sonis a video game addict. He has played video games to border lineobsession from the time that he got old enough for it to becomedifficult for me to restrict it. As a young child I limited histelevision, snacks, bad word exposure, chemicals...blah, blah,blah....when he began playing video games I limited the time he playedthem. As they get older and go to other kids homes, spend the nights,you don't know what they are doing. I know as he got into middle schooland high school he was playing them for hours a day (I didn't know itthen) when he wasn't in football season. I'm telling you, too much ofthese things is a bad, bad thing. M.E. might be able to use the rightwords, I can't remember what it is but there is something about the waythe brain begins to expect quick movement to keep it's attentionfocused. When you compare the bazillions of rapid movements a minute ofa video game to the slow pace of a human voice, reading, or just normalliving, it doesn't hold the interest of that brain anymore. It's beenscientifically proven! So, you can have a genius kid from a greatfamily and do almost everything right, and still end up with someserious dysfunction from an excess of any one thing! 

Raspberry


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## Jems (Dec 13, 2004)

Boy did we get way off topic here-anyway-Iappreciate everyones opinion and like I said before I am not suremedication is the answer for my son but.... He is limited onhow much tv he watches and more particuarly WHAT he watches.We don't have cable or satalite so his choices are limited.At 14 I have to review some pg 13 movies before he can be allowed towatch them. He will be unable to sleep for a week if there isso much as a reference to murder, rape, or any other violentcrime. 

Ever since my kids were old enough they have been encouraged, to thepoint of pushing, to be active in sports. I tell them they*have* to do a sport or other 'active' activity.They are free to pick which one they want. They stick withthe basics but are both baseball, basketball, and footballplayers. They spend most of thier summers at the local Rectaking swimming lessons, and getting exposure to other sports by takinga couple weeks of lessons in tennis, lacrosse, etc. The tvusually doesn't come on at my house until 7:30 or 8 and the kids go tobed at 9. They are usually out 4-wheeling with thier friends,playing ball with the neighborhood kids, building snow forts (now thatwe have that dreaded white stuff). Brad is harder to convinceto go out and do something but will get there andis alwayswilling to go to my parents and work around thier house. 

I agree that the world tends to over analize life these days and peopleare oftenbeing labled for something or another willingly ornot. My brother was married to a woman who convinced him hewas abused as a child because he, my other brother and myself sometimesfought as kids. 

Raspberry-I take no offence to anything you said. I valueeveryone's opinion and the more knowledge I have will better help memake the (I hope) right choice if and when I need to make a decision asto how to handle this.


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## RaspberrySwirl (Dec 13, 2004)

Jems, I sure hopeyou don't take offense! I certainly wasn't directing anything I said atyou in particular. If you browse through this entire thread you willfind that we've wandered all over the place! In fact, if you browsethrough my posts you will find that it's characteristic of me, ingeneral to wander! :?My family says it's because of my WestNile brain damage...I don't think that's very nice! :X

Raspberry


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## I LuV MaH BuNs (Dec 13, 2004)

Im glad my dad hasnt posted. It wouldnt be apretty sight if i found out he was talking about me. Guys just rememberyour kids DO have access to this website and they CAN read what youwrite about them.


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## RaspberrySwirl (Dec 14, 2004)

I luV MaH BuNs, Iwould never speak to other people about my childrenif mychildren wouldn't want me to. If there were something my kidsconsidered private and personal enough that they didn't want it to beshared, I wouldn't share it. My family is very open and enjoys thesekinds of discussions. With my oldest kids being 17, 18, 19 and 23, weoften have lively conversation full of varied opinions. In fact theyoften include a house full of their friends as well. Of course I knowmy kids have access to this web site. I often invite them to sit downand browse through the latest posts! 

RaspberrySwirl


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## Bo B Bunny (Dec 14, 2004)

*I LuV MaH BuNs wrote:*


> Im glad my dad hasnt posted. It wouldnt be a pretty sight ifi found out he was talking about me. Guys just remember your kids DOhave access to this website and they CAN read what you write aboutthem.


I wouldn't say anything here that I wouldn't say to my child. 

Also, not everyone's children are free to be online. Mychildren aren't allowed online without me present, and their access islimited.


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## Jems (Dec 14, 2004)

My children do not go online very often and whenthey do it is to play games. They have no interest in a sitelike this. That being said-my son knows I talk about thesethings with other people because I like to get differant peoplesopinions and learn as much as I can about things before makingchoices. Especially when it concerns things such asmedicate/or not my child. This is not a decision I takelightly. He doesn not care and would probably be willing totell you himself. I have raised him to believe that there arethings about yourself that are not your fault and nothing to be ashamedof.


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## JimD (Dec 14, 2004)

*I LuV MaH BuNs wrote:*


> Im glad my dad hasnt posted. It wouldnt be a pretty sight ifi found out he was talking about me. Guys just remember your kids DOhave access to this website and they CAN read what you write aboutthem.


Time out! I did post, in fact I started this topic. But it was about bunnies wasn't it?

I seem to remember a post thatgoes...*"Of corse seeing a 47year old bald man jumping around the room swating at a fly didn't helpthe bunnies much..." * (ref: topic "Flies, Flies,and more flies")

Me thinks mine reputation hast been sullied.

Honestly, I won't post anything on a forum (any forum) about friends or family unless it was discussed with them first. 

So.. not to worry. Your secret identity is safe with me BuzzFlyswatter. OOOPS...er...umm...I mean Danielle  **giggles**

Jim


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## Jems (Dec 14, 2004)

*Jems wrote: *


> Boy did we get way off topic here-anyway-


Yup Jim I know it started out as about bunnies but somewhere,something went terribly wrong.............. LOL


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## RaspberrySwirl (Dec 14, 2004)

Interestinglyenough though, that's the way real conversations go. And I don't thinkit's so terrible.There are a lot of conversationsinthis forum that drawmuch interestand end upentirely different than where they began. They also have a great manyinterested followers who may not post comments but enjoy following theconversation. For example, note how many people have read this thread.Watch the numbers jump each day. Those people may not post comments butthey are involved none the less, and that's clear by the activity ofthe thread compared to the numbers of viewings on other threads. I likevariety and I like hearing other people opinions. It's the spice oflife! 

Raspberry


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## Bo B Bunny (Dec 14, 2004)




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## Jems (Dec 15, 2004)

*RaspberrySwirl wrote:*


> Interestingly enough though,that's the way real conversations go. And I don't think it's soterrible.There are a lot of conversationsin thisforum that drawmuch interestand end up entirelydifferent than where they began. They also have a great many interestedfollowers who may not post comments but enjoy following theconversation. For example, note how many people have read this thread.Watch the numbers jump each day. Those people may not post comments butthey are involved none the less, and that's clear by the activity ofthe thread compared to the numbers of viewings on other threads. I likevariety and I like hearing other people opinions. It's the spice oflife!
> 
> Raspberry





> I agree. I enjoy listening to peoples opinionsand learning more about just about any topic-a time or two my opinionhas even changed by listening to someoneelse.


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## JimD (Dec 15, 2004)

I agree. Nothing terrible about it. I'm glad it'sgiving everyone an opportunity to share. In fact I'm pretty impressedwith the involvement and interaction this has created.

There have been 742 Views and 65 Replies since 12/3/04. 

I think this shows that we care just as much about about our families(bunnies included )and friends than anything else in ourlives.

Jim


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## RaspberrySwirl (Dec 15, 2004)




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## RaspberrySwirl (Dec 15, 2004)

Just curious...whenwe were discussing some of the experiences with different disordersearlier,did any of you have any experience with RAD- ReactiveAttachment Disorder, that you would care to share? My sisters familyhas been to hell and back with it the last year or two and is finallyseeing the light at the end of the tunnel. I'm just curious as towhether or not their experiences are very common place. From what I'velearned RAD is oft times confused with other disorders, particularly inadopted/foster children and in children that were sick or injured asinfants or born premature...

RaspberrySwirl


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## Bo B Bunny (Dec 16, 2004)

Raspberry, is that the one that kids have thatdidn't bond with people as infants? If so, my cousin had/hasit.... my family raised him.


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## RaspberrySwirl (Dec 16, 2004)

Yep, that's theone. They don't bond properly for whatever reason, be it health, abuse,accident, etc.


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## Bo B Bunny (Dec 16, 2004)

Oh boy! I feel sorry for your family. It's been awful for mine. 

There are lots of things that have happened.... if you have any specific questions feel free to ask. 

Now, my cousin is in his 30's and has a string of children all over theU.S. and ex-wives/girlfriends who get nothing from him. Weare in contact with one but that's it. We don't even knowexactly where a couple of them are.

It's a very very sad situation. I hope that your family canget the child help that will bring them through this.Unfortunately, my cousin did get help but it was through the county (hewas a foster child) and in hindsite, I think we all can see it wasn'tgood.


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## RaspberrySwirl (Dec 16, 2004)

Here is a briefintro to RAD- and a link to this page. This perfectly sums up my nieceand what my sister went through with her. It was pure hell. Especiallyfor my sister and our family relations because my niece pulled a veryconvincing act in front of the rest of us when we were together forfamily events and then would go home and act possessed. Rather thangive my sister the support that she needed at the time the family wasdividing. Half of us thought she has lost her mind putting my nieceinto the therapy that she was. In the end the therapy saved my nieceslife and their family. Everyone is doing very well today and ourextended family is healing. This organization is very helpful as wellfor anyone needing help or information.http://www.attach.org/

RaspberrySwirl

The information below is found at thispage-http://www.attachmentcenterwest.com/for_educators.shtml

Children with Reactive Attachment Disorder are the victims of abuse,neglect, abandonment, physical illness, multiple placements and/orin-utero drug/alcohol exposure. Their problems are rooted in the firstthree years of their lives, when trauma occurred. Stable attachmentscannot be formed when a child experiences frequent changes in daycareor foster care, or when the child's social, emotional, physical, andcognitive needs are unmet. 

While many children with Reactive Attachment Disorder have grown up infoster care and/or adoptive homes, these disorders occur in childrenwho are growing up with their biological parents as well. It isestimated that one-third of elementary school children in the UnitedStates have some form of an attachment issue, if not the full blowndisorder, due to divorce, inappropriate daycare programs, and multiplecaregivers. Children who have experienced medical events such ashospitalization, placement in an incubator or a body cast can alsodevelop these disorders. 

According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders,Fourth Edition, published by the American Psychiatric Association,there are two types of Reactive Attachment Disorders. In the*Inhibited Type* the child persistently fails to initiate and torespond to most social interactions in a developmentally appropriateway. The child shows a pattern of excessively inhibited, hypervigilantor highly ambivalent responses (for example, frozen watchfulness,resistance to comfort, or mixture of approach and avoidance). In the*Disinhibited Type*, there is a pattern of diffused attachments.The child exhibits indiscriminate sociability or a lack of selectivityin the choice of attachment figures. For example, the child may beextremely charming and friendly with those who are not trying to be hisor her parents, while acting violently toward parents who areattempting to become emotionally close to the child. 

*What is Attachment Disorder?* 

The words attachment and bonding are used interchangeably. A personwith Reactive Attachment Disorder has difficulty forming loving,lasting, intimate relationships. These individuals are unable to begenuinely affectionate with others, have not experienced consciencedevelopment and cannot trust others. Attachment is necessary for thedevelopment of an emotionally healthy person who has consciencedevelopment, experiences empathy, attains full intellectual potential,thinks logically, copes with stress and frustration, becomes selfreliant, develops healthy personal and business relationships, andhandles the ups and downs of every day life. According to Foster Cline,MD, examples of people who were not treated for Reactive AttachmentDisorder include *Adolph Hitler, SadamHussein,and Jeffrey Dahmer. An example of a person who was treated successfullyfor Reactive Attachment Disorder is Helen Keller. 
*
Children with Reactive Attachment Disorder do not respect authority,especially that of their parents. They are sometimes oppositional anddefiant in the school setting, although many of these children behaveperfectly with those who are not parenting them. *It is not uncommonfor a child with Reactive Attachment Disorder to be a good student aswell as the most helpful child in the class. *The same child may gohome and threaten his mother with a knife, set fires, and/or killanimals. Attachment disordered children have been so damaged that theycannot trust. Their behavior meets their subconscious need to keepthose who love them most at a distance. They are fearful that, if theybecome emotionally close to their parents, they will somehow be hurtagain as they were in the past. *These children are terrified ofcloseness, and will do anything they can to create distance betweenthemselves and their parents. One way that this is manifested is inchildren's ability to triangulate, that is to pit one adult against theother. Children with attachment disorders frequently lie to theirteachers, accusing their parents of emotional abuse, physical abuse, orneglect, and lie so convincingly that their teachers believe them. Manyparents have been erroneously reported for suspected child abuse whenschool personnel have listened to the child without checking the factswith the parent.*


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## m.e. (Dec 16, 2004)

Thanks for that info, Raspberry.

It's interesting, because this issue just came up on a*cough*mothering*cough forum, which is pro-attachment parenting.Someone there had adopted a child, and one of the adoption counselorswas advocating parenting methods that would have encouraged ReactiveAttachment Disorder. I had never heard about it before, so for it tocome up on two forums in the same day was interesting (and informative!)


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## Bo B Bunny (Dec 16, 2004)

Yep, Raspberry. Your niece may need help on and off the rest of her life from what I have heard.

My cousin was neglected. He was a mess and the "help" he gotwas not quality. Now that we know this, my parents feel badbut there is nothing they can do.

His life is a string of short relationships and self-absorbedways. He cannot "attach" to anyone for any length of time.

Very very sad situation.


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## RaspberrySwirl (Dec 16, 2004)

It's a veryvolatile issue. Many of the therapy suggestions cause a lot of waves,but what it boils down to is this- if it doesn't harm the child and itmight fix the problem, if there is any chance in hell of fixing thechild, why not try? Statistics sure don't bear out very well for aquality life for people who don't get help. That's what my sisterfinally did. We went through two years of some hard times. Things thatseemed extreme to others, like little to no television, strict rules onwhat toys she had, what she could read, all choices were made for her,what she could eat, wear, where she could go, when she could go to bed,etc. It forced her to depend on her mother. Which she had never had todepend on an adult before. (part of the attachment disorder) She washome schooled during that time and removed from social situations.Anyway, it may seem extreme to some people but what is two years of akids life if it worked compared to an entire life of dysfunction in andadults life? An adult who could wreck a spouses life, children's lives,murder, etc??? My niece just "graduated" from therapy and is consideredin remission. She will have issues that will need tending probablyforever but I consider it a success. I think I will forever beinterested in this topic. I learned A LOT from what my familywent through with it. 

Raspberry


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## RaspberrySwirl (Dec 16, 2004)

*m.e. wrote:*


> ......issue just came up on a*cough*mothering*cough forum......


m.e. - IS THERE SOMETHING YOU'D LIKE TO TELLUS??????


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## Bo B Bunny (Dec 16, 2004)

Thank God your sister got the help for yourniece. I believe if no one is harmed and it works.... go forit! Hopefully your niece will have a full and lovinglife.


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## m.e. (Dec 16, 2004)

RaspberrySwirl wrote:


> *m.e. wrote: *
> 
> 
> > ...... issue justcame up on a *cough*mothering*cough forum......
> ...



Nooooooooo! :shock:

My 20th birthday is still two weeks away! I've never had a boyfriend inmy entire life! I just happen to think it's a good idea to think aboutthese things now


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## RaspberrySwirl (Dec 16, 2004)

Okay, justchecking!

We always get baby buns, but I thought maybe you had abun in theoven!



Raspberry


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## Buck Jones (Dec 16, 2004)

*m.e. wrote: *


> ...My20th birthday is still two weeks away! I've never had a boyfriend in myentire life! I just happen to think it's a good idea to think aboutthese things now


Your maturity transcends your chronological age. Some youngman will surely count his lucky stars when you do decide, "take theplunge into romance." How could he not find you infinitelyinteresting, just based upon the erudite comments you've shared with uson this forum these past five months?

Young men and women, like yourself, give me hope that our culture'srapidly downward spiral is still capable of being arrested.If someone ever tries to castigate you for your efforts to increaseyour understanding of the world around them, pity on them!

You are on the right track! Don't ever let anyone tell you differently.

Buck


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## RaspberrySwirl (Dec 17, 2004)

Yeah, what he said!!!

Raspberry


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## m.e. (Dec 17, 2004)

Raspberry - Nope, no worries....yet  Though mydad would certainly be thrilled if I found Mr. Right and gave them agrandkid. 

Buck - Thank you, your words mean a lot. I have to owe pretty much allof that to two amazing parents, I love them fabulously. I can only hopeto be someday as wonderful as they were.

I intend to wait on "my man" for as long as it takes. And when theteens at youth group tease me about not dating yet, I just roll my eyesand say, "_Darn_ my high standards." 

Thanks guys, I needed the affirmation this week especially!


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## Carolyn (Dec 17, 2004)

PARENTING 101...

(Just kidding!)


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## Stephanie (Dec 17, 2004)

LOL!


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## BunnyLover (Dec 17, 2004)

*m.e. wrote: *


> I intend to wait on "my man" for as long as it takes. And when theteens at youth group tease me about not dating yet, I just roll my eyesand say, "_Darn_ my high standards."



I'm going to have to steal that line. I'm only 14, but many people myage keep telling me I should "get a boyfriend." It helps to know thatthere are other people out there that are waiting for the right guy tocome along! 

Lissa


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## MyBabyBunnies (Dec 17, 2004)

*m.e. wrote: *


> Thoughmy dad would certainly be thrilled if I found Mr. Right and gave them agrandkid.


Me and my older sister always speculated the same thing, although mydad acts like he doesn't want grandkids. I guess we'll find out what hereally thinks this weekend...


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## RaspberrySwirl (Dec 18, 2004)

*Carolyn wrote: *


> PARENTING 101...
> 
> (Just kidding!)




....You kill me!


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## dmmcnair (Dec 21, 2004)

I am sooo late getting to this post.Raspberry and Buck, I am with you on the discipline.Raspberry, I have said the same thing about how and why a lot of thekids are the way they are today. You are a brave woman with disciplinebeing such a touchy subject.

I've got 4 kids ages 9, 7, 2, and 1. We use all methods,first it is verbal, then it is time-out, then it is take somethingaway, and then it is a spank. We spank as a last resort tonot so serious offenses, but if they endanger themselves or others theyget spanked right away ( like running into the street without looking).

Last year, we had sooo many problems with the kids, my 7 year oldespecially. He was, to be quite frank, a bullyterror! He hit, bit, kicked, threw, never listened, did whathe wanted, talked back, lied, etc. He was suspended, kickedoff the bus, sent home. The principal and vice principal andcounselor know my then 6 year old kindergardener very well....low andbehold ADHD. He is on Ritalin now. He gets straightA's and most probably get into the gifted program this year! Ritalin isnot for everyone, but with Cody, we changed his diet, we gave himvitamins, we changed how we talked to him, changed disciplinarytactics, etc, nothing worked.He's a very lovingchildand we tell him he's making wrong choices or rightchoices, cause he isn't a bad kid, and more than half of the badchoices he makes is the ADHD. 

Justin has ADD. His grades were awful, not paying attentionin school, taking 3-5 hours to do 30 min of homework, getting kickedoff the bus. He is also on Ritalin to focus in school, henever gets meds on the weekend. He will more than likely makeit to the gifted program this year too! He is a straight Astudent now, and does his homework on the busride home.

Being a parent is hard, being a parent of a child with a disability isharder. I've learned that apologizing when I am wrong, andexplaining in detail what I expect of my kids helps. Theyhave a list of rules and chores and get stars for making good choiceseveryday, no stars for bad choices, and allowance for chores...we arestill working on the chores, sad to say but they haven't gotten anallowance yet, I think they actually owe us money now :?. 

Anyway, I grew up with an korean mother raising me alone...to say theleast I was beat more often than spanked, but in defense that is how itwas done in korea back then and all my mother knew. I'mstronger for it. I don't beat my kids and they will onlyreceive 3 swats when they get spanked (and I am proud to say that theyhaven't needed a spanking in a very long while). My real dadspanked and restricted when I visited him...and boy did I deserve everyswat I ever got! I'll tell you what, I respect both my parents verymuch, and I love them very much. They've taught me a lot, andI hope I can teach the same things to my kids...I probably won'trealize they learned anything until they are in their late 20's though.

Now we are watching our two year old for signs of ADD/ADHD.It can be inherited. And since our older kids were had withother people, we aren't sure if it was inherited from one ofus. But now we know what to look for, and so far he is anormal 2 year old, who happens to get his hand or tush swatted when heis making wrong choices, while learning to make the rightchoices. And he is learning although he is a stubbornindependant kid.

Anyway, that is my take on all that. By the way, so I couldbe the biggest influence on my children, instead of a stranger, I quitmy job and stay at home. I get pretty nice compliments on mykids' behavior when we are out in public, most of the time anyway. Ohand it is not my opinion that everyone should do this...only that Ichose to and we could afford it and it is what our familyneeded. We've given up a lot to do it, but I think it's worthit, and my kids think it's worth it, and that is all that matters tome: my kids happiness and well-being. I have no regrets.

Nice to be able to voice opinions, stories, experiences, etc without judgement.

Dawn


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## Lucy/Thumper (Dec 21, 2004)

I really admire all of you parents that know whatyou believe and stand behind your conviction 110%. I have a 13 yearold. When he is an adult and is happy, educated, healthy anda resonsible citizen,THAT is when I will tell you all aboutmy parentingbeliefs and how I did it!


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## RaspberrySwirl (Dec 22, 2004)

Dawn, I think itsounds like you have tackled your challenges head on in an educated andintelligent manner. It certainly sounds like the children are doingmuch better, and I'm sure that means things have got to be better foryou. I hope things continue on in a positive way and I'll keep myfingers crossed that you don't have to go through the same thing withyour baby boy, but if so at least you know the path to take.

Raspberry


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## dmmcnair (Dec 22, 2004)

Thanks, Raspberry. Parenting istrial and error right? Sadly, I've had a lot of errors withby oldest, and we are working on fixing the effects of those errorsnow. Justin was raised by my parents while I was in the armythe first 5 years of his life...to say the least it was "spoil thechild, spare the rod" and now he's very selfish, and spoiled.Heck my stepdad still spoils him rotten and treats him better than myother kids...but we live 13 hours away from him and it's gettingbetter...very slowly Justin is coming to realize that the needs of hisyounger siblings is important too, and that we are not made out ofmoney like Grandpa is.

I would love a how-to book, but it all depends on thekids. They are all different, and what works for one doesn'tnecessarily work for another. We are just trying our hardestto have our kids grow up secure in the knowledge that we love them nomatter what, and that we are behind them 100%. I didn't getthat growing up and I'm going to make sure my kids do. I findthat I am trying to break a cycle in our family, and so far it'sworking. 

I must say though, that now that the holiday vacation hasstarted, I might need a little extra help in the patiencedepartment....send patient thoughts my way....I'm gonna needit. The boys will pretty much be medication free for twoweeks. 

I hope ya'll have a wonderful Christmas!

Dawn


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## JimD (May 2, 2006)

:bump....for LindsayandLily

~Jim


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## RaspberrySwirl (May 2, 2006)

Wow... Posts likethis sure make me miss Buck. Boy could that man discuss, debate andbend an ear!  They just don't make 'em like that anymore.:inlove:

I miss BunnyMommy too! :X

Any of you newbies, who never had thepleasure of meeting her, you should take some time to research herposts and her Sherman stories. You've never laughed so hard in yourlife. She was the First Lady of our forum way back when it was just atwinkle in Danielle's eye...



Raspberry


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## JimD (May 3, 2006)

*RaspberrySwirl wrote:*


> Wow... Posts like this suremake me miss Buck.
> I miss BunnyMommy too!
> 
> Raspberry




Ditto X 2 :missyou


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## JimD (Dec 27, 2006)

:bump


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