# Help 3 Week Old Babies



## SilverBirchRabbitry (Jun 26, 2009)

I went to a breeders house today to pick up 2 Holland Lops. I got there, and I was not happy.

She went in the house to get her calendar to check when they were born, so I took a look around.

Her bucks had dog cages, the ones with the really spaced out bottoms. But the dog crates were held in the air by skinny beams. If the rabbits wanted to go to the front to get a drink their legs would fall right through the bars. That made me mad. The rabbits couldn't even stretch out.

Anyways I'm calling the humane society tommorow.

Anyways so she comes back out with the calendar, the babies were born on the 2nd of June.

Way to young to take home right? Well she had them seperated from their mom already.

Will they be ok? I don't think they are eating pellets. Should I bottle feed them? I don't have any nursing mothers ATM.

I need help, I don't want them to die :expressionless They aren't starving though you can tell that.


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## Numbat (Jun 26, 2009)

Maybe you should talk to her about it before calling the humane society. Though I agree that the conditions aren't too good, she might not realize. Tell her that you will have to call the humane society if she doesn't do anything. Also explain to her that 3 weeks old is far too young for rabbits to be away from their mom and ask if you can put them back with her? Just my suggestions, I might be wrong. Good luck!


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## SilverBirchRabbitry (Jun 26, 2009)

Well when I got home I messaged her and told her that she should put wooden bottoms in the dog crates if that is what she is going to use. I also told her it made me mad to see them like that.

Also while I was there, I asked about the mom, she said her milk just dried up -.- She is a weirdo this woman, like seriously 

Thanks for the advice :]


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## terrellflyer (Jun 26, 2009)

I strongly suggest you learn a LOT more about rabbits before you get one.


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## Starlight Rabbitry (Jun 26, 2009)

Do you have any pics of the baby? Give the baby lots of hay and pellets. You can even try some Cheerios. At this stage, you can give some KMR, Kitten Milk Replacer in a dish and let the baby lick it up. No need to bottle feed it. You can also try putting some in an eye dropper and letting the baby take it that way.

I would like to see a pic of the baby first though because if this lady is truely a weirdo, maybe she got the date wrong.

Glad the baby found a new and better home though 

Sharon


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## anneq (Jun 26, 2009)

3 weeks is way to young to separate the babies from mom.
The earliest my doe would start weaning is 4weeks, and even then she would be nursing 1x a day instead of 2x. Usually the kits will start nibbling on hay at 2-3weeks of age, but that hardly means they should be completely off mom's milk.

If you have the babies already, you could try some old fashioned oats (not quick or instant) mixed in with pellets, if they take that. 
Did you find out what the babies are eating since they are not nursing anymore?


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jun 26, 2009)

I wouldn't really suggest KMR at this point in time. Although it is way too young to be weaned, it's done. KMR is not really a good rabbit milk replacer, it's just something that is used to try and hold babies over until weaning age. It's really not nurtritionally an excellent choice, more of a last resort. I wouldn't want to mess with their systems anymore than they already have been with a sudden change in diet.

So since these babies are already weaned, I'd suggest restricting their pellets. Give them unlimited quantities of alfalfa hay, if you can. Alfalfa is higher in protein, calcium, and fiber than usual grass hay which will be good for the babies. Also offer a small handful of rolled oats daily and limited pellets...maybe around a half cup between the two of them. Offer water in a bottle and a dish until you figure out which they prefer.

As long as they're eating, drinking, and going to the bathroom, they should be ok. But in the future, NEVER take babies this young again. That's just supporting her crazy breeding practices, not helping.


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## naturestee (Jun 26, 2009)

You gave this woman money? IMO if I had that many serious questions about the care (and age) of the rabbits, I'd have just walked out of there. There are plenty of breeders out there who take good care of their rabbits. Why buy from a questionable one?


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## peppa and georgie (Jun 26, 2009)

Oh dear, i imagine you were trying to save them from this lady and hoping you could help them more as she obviously didnt have them with the mum anyway.
Dont be too discouraged, see what she says and try get some advice on who is best to contact about your concerns xx
Hope bunnies are doing well give us an update and maybe some pics ?????


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## SilverBirchRabbitry (Jun 26, 2009)

Well I felt bad I wasn not going to leave them there.

Also terrellflyer don't you ever tell me again that I need to learn more about rabbits. If anyone doesnt't know what they are talking about it is you. I didn't see you giving any helpful options.

We are going to give them Quaker Oats, mixed with their pellets.


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## peppa and georgie (Jun 26, 2009)

That is good, let us know how they are getting on i have to say i would have taken them aswell if i was worried they werent safe there x Can we have some pics xx


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## ra7751 (Jun 26, 2009)

Hi,

Kitten Milk Replacer, Goat's Milkand oats are all totally inappropriate. While these guys may nibble on solids, they should still be on formula. A mom's milk is very rich and even our professional formulas can't match even a wild rabbit much less the richer milk of a domestic. The best possibility is to see if you can find a breeder with a lactating doe and see if the doe will accept them. Many breeders are cautious about doing this as they are concerned about bringing in a disease from other rabbits....and it is a very valid concern. I feed baby rabbits Escilac Puppy Powder (not the premix liquid....the powder). We initially mix 1 part powder to 4 parts water and gradually increase the concentration over a period of 3-4 days to a normal concentration of 1 part powder to 2 parts water. As we get an acclimated gut, we add a higher protein/fat formula called Multi Milk. Both of these formulas are medium protein/fat (more appropriate than KMR or Goat's Milk) and low/trace lactose. Esbilac Powder can be found at most chain pet stores....Multi Milk as to be ordered from a Pet Ag or Zoologic dealer....I order it from www.squirrelsandmore.com . I also add a probiotic....powdered Bene Bac....as this will simulate the change of pH in the mother's milk which leads to an acidic GI climate which is favorable for beneficial bacteria to thrive. I wean cottontails on greens....and have done the same for the few domestics I have hand weaned. With domestics, I would offer the crushed leaves from alfalfa hay along with a higher protein type pellet. I have found that domestics have a much easier wean than cottontails....domestics are older and their guts are more established so it leads to a much gentler weaning. Good luck.

Randy


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## BlueGiants (Jun 26, 2009)

The oats/limited pelletsand hay will do them good. You might consider some probiotics if you can get some. (BeneBac or similar) They are at the age where mom would be encouraging them to eat some of her cecotropes to start the right bacterial balance in their gut. 

If you can't find any, you can try using fresh cecotropes from a healthy doe... in the past (when nothing else was available) I would mix a little bit of fresh cecotropes from another doe with fresh pumpkin and baby Pedialyte (enough to let it go through an eye dropper or syringe, if the babies were really young. Or I'd give it to them in a dish if they would take it from there.). I fed it to them once a day every other day until they were 6 weeks old. Seemed to help keep their gut balanced and I didn't have any diarrhea issues.


Edited to add: LOL! See Randy has added pretty much the same idea... Probiotics are needed... I type too slow!


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## SilverBirchRabbitry (Jun 26, 2009)

lol ok I will see if I can get some Probiotics.

I wont be going to town for about a week. So I will try getting some from a healthy bunny and mixing it with Pumpkin pie.

They were not drinking last night or today, so I switched them to a water dish, they are drinking ALOT now. And I gave them pellets with oats and they are eating that aswell 

Thanks everyone will be sure to post pics later on today


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## Happi Bun (Jun 26, 2009)

I have some suggestions as well. While I'm not experienced in having such young bunnies or even babies, I have Dewey. When I first got him he was so tiny (just genetics) that he had trouble drinking from the water bottle, eating hay, and pellets.

I see that you already started giving them a bowl of water, that's great! It should make it much easier. Are you feeding Alfalfa pellets? They are specifically made for growing or pregnant rabbit's. I placed Dewey's pellets in the blender and set it on a very low setting, just so it would cut them into smaller pieces. This really helped make him eat more for it was easier, I also cut his hay into smaller pieces with a pair of scissors.

:goodluck


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## SilverBirchRabbitry (Jun 26, 2009)

I have to go buy more hay. I'm currently right out. 
Anyways here is a pic:
The one on the left is the doe, her name is Tessa & the one on the right is a buck and his name is Firefly.


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## Pipp (Jun 26, 2009)

SilverBirchRabbitry wrote:


> Well I felt bad I wasn not going to leave them there.
> 
> Also terrellflyer don't you ever tell me again that I need to learn more about rabbits.



I don't think he was referring to you, here. (At least I hope not, if he was, he was I'm sure just confused). 

I really don't blame you for taking them, but leaving them with the breeder and calling the Humane Society would have been my recommended course of action. I hate supporting these practices and inspiring another litter by giving her the business. 

That said, easier said than done! I don't know that I would have followed my own advice. But the longer they stay with their mom, the healthier their immune systems and other workings will be down the road. Not sure if she was telling the truth about the mom having no milk, but I would have strongly suggested she try reuniting them. In some states I do believe it's actually illegal to sell them that young. 

sas


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## SilverBirchRabbitry (Jun 26, 2009)

Yes I actually do think it is illegal.

Anyways I messaged her, I'm waiting on a reply.

I'm going to buy some probiotic gel. It is by the same makers of KMR-Milk replacement.


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## CorkysMom (Jun 27, 2009)

They do look awful young....are they out of the same litter? The one on the right looks a lil younger to me, but that can happen in same litter, just like people..different sizes.  They are very cute...

sounds like you've already gotten good advice. I raise hollands and don't even think about weaning until 7 weeks or so, unless for some reason mom is getting grumpy w/ them...they won't go to a new home til at least 8 weeks and I know they've been eating/drinking for awhile very well on their own. 

Only other thing I can think of....Keep a close eye on their behinds, young hollands can get what I call yuck butt and it can get really messy, if so, just trim it down good and by the time it grows out they s/b caring for themselves better and be fine...that baby textured hair can be like glue for baby poops.

Good luck..sounds like you are doing what you can.


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## SilverBirchRabbitry (Jun 27, 2009)

Thank you for the advice!

The little male is constantly cleaning himself lol They both have very clean bums  They are not out of the same litter, I had originally came to pick up a breeding pair and she said she had 2 litters ready to go, so I took one from each. There are still 3 from the little males litter left and 4 from the females litter.


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## CorkysMom (Jun 27, 2009)

Good deal....I don't often get the yuck butt...but you just never know. I used to see it more on the old feed, but since I switched about a year ago or a lil more I don't see it as often. 

Sounds like you are doing great with kinda a touchy situation!  Hollands are the BEST!


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## SilverBirchRabbitry (Jun 27, 2009)

Did I say they were Hollands? They are actually Mini's. I get them confused all the time lol


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## CorkysMom (Jun 27, 2009)

Yes you did..lol, I had to look back...I was 2nd guessing myself. Interesting tho, you don't often (around here anyway) see tort mini lops....is the other a broken tort? Kinda looks like it...both VERY common holland colors..but not mini's...like I said, around here anyway!  

Either way, sounds like its going well and you have everything well under control.


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## SilverBirchRabbitry (Jun 27, 2009)

Thank you :]

Do you think they will be ok with out the hay and the Probiotic Gel until Sunday?

The little buck is a broken blue tort Mini Lop. I'm pretty sure that is the color xP


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## CorkysMom (Jun 27, 2009)

Keep a close eye on them, the sooner the better, especially on the hay, will help keep them dry if they are wanting to get lose poops at all, it s/ help quite a bit. 

I've not had to give lil ones the propbiotic at all, but others w/ lots of exp have it seems...so the sooner the better. As Blue Giants stated above tho, you can mash up cecal from another rabbit to help balance their gut..it's kinda gross ( I have a STRONG stomach, but those things can almost make me puke) but works well!


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## SilverBirchRabbitry (Jun 27, 2009)

Ok so does the cecal have to be fresh? And will they eat if for sure if I mix it with pumpkin pie?

I have a little bit of hey here, it isn't moldy. It has been in the shed though for about a month. And it is about 4-5 months old in total.


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## CorkysMom (Jun 27, 2009)

as long as its not moldy it s/b ok,..may not be super fresh, but as long as its not moldy it s/n't make them sick or anything. 

The fresh ones mash better in my experience..but either would probably work if you are mashing it inside something else...g/l w/ that....hope you don't gag easily. :vomit:


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## SilverBirchRabbitry (Jun 27, 2009)

I usually have a pretty strong stomach lol

Unless it comes to a bunny with Diarrhea. Then my stomach can't hold it.

Anyways when would be the best time to get it? How often do bunnies produce it? I have had rabbits for 3 years and still dont know lol


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## CorkysMom (Jun 27, 2009)

I think more at night, hence them being called 'nite poops' by some. But I see them randomly in different cages, I find my does on litters produce more of them...just keep an eye on those pans and I'm sure you'll come across the 'find'. 

Gotta get up early to show tomorrow...so heading out....ask away if more questions, i'll help when i can, lots of experience from folks here, you'll get good answers!

Take care and keep us posted on how they do.


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## SilverBirchRabbitry (Jun 27, 2009)

Thank you very much 
Good luck at the show


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## ARobinson (Jun 27, 2009)

*SilverBirchRabbitry wrote: *


> Did I say they were Hollands? They are actually Mini's. I get them confused all the time lol



You might want to double check on that, those look like Holland Lop babies to me, *NOT* Mini Lops. 

-----

Annie


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## minirexmama (Jun 27, 2009)

Did you call the humane society? If the conditions were as bad as you say, I would not mess around with trying to contact the breeder-just call the HS. If she's doing nothing wrong, they will be in and out of her rabbitry in 15 minutes.


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## ARobinson (Jun 27, 2009)

Ditto.

-----

Annie :bunny19


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## DeniseJP (Jun 27, 2009)

*anneq wrote: *


> 3 weeks is way to young to separate the babies from mom.
> The earliest my doe would start weaning is 4weeks, and even then she would be nursing 1x a day instead of 2x. Usually the kits will start nibbling on hay at 2-3weeks of age, but that hardly means they should be completely off mom's milk.
> 
> If you have the babies already, you could try some old fashioned oats (not quick or instant) mixed in with pellets, if they take that.
> Did you find out what the babies are eating since they are not nursing anymore?




I agree - my former does nursed until 4 weeks and then started backing off the babies...but babies out of the nestbox at 10 days started nibbling on pellets and hay here...

The Checkered Giants I now have were kept on mom's milk a lot longer and the boys and girls are still with their littermates (two girls and two boys here). The girls are very bonded and to separate them I know would stress them. The boys are a little more independent so they will be separated once they start to show more buck like behavior. 

Good luck...the babies look like Holland Lop babies to me... those not in the know sometimes think Mini Lops are the smallest Lops but that is not the case - a show quality Holland cannot be over 4 lbs...but brood does and pet quality can be larger. I think Mini Lops go up to six pounds but I do not have my Standard of Perfection right in front of me at the moment.) 


Denise


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## SilverBirchRabbitry (Jun 27, 2009)

lol I was told their parents were Mini lops xP I don't know anything about Lops, I have just bred Angoras mostly


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Jun 27, 2009)

I agree, they look like Holland Lops.  
If the breeder doesn't take good care of her rabbits, she probably doesn't know what type of lops she's breeding.  She probably does have Holland Lops, but thinks their Mini Lops.  

Emily


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## anneq (Jun 30, 2009)

Looks like HL's to me...btw, how are they doing?


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jun 30, 2009)

Mini's don't typically come in tort...I'd say they're Hollands with pretty much 100% certainty. Hopefully this is not a breeding pair though if you don't have pedigrees on them?


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## SweetSassy (Jun 30, 2009)

*SilverBirchRabbitry wrote: *


> I have to go buy more hay. I'm currently right out.
> Anyways here is a pic:
> The one on the left is the doe, her name is Tessa & the one on the right is a buck and his name is Firefly.


These babies are ADORABLE!! :inlove: I hope they grow up to be healthy adults.....April


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## SilverBirchRabbitry (Jun 30, 2009)

They are at a friend of mines house who raises Hollands. One of her mother bunnies took them in lol She has 3 kits of her own  They all snuggle it is very cute :]

No, they do not have their pedigrees. But my 4H group and my leader don't beleive in just breeding for show. Alot of the 4H bunnies are unpedigreed pets


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## Bunnymom,K (Jun 30, 2009)

Glad the hear the kits are with a surrogate mother, that is for the best.
As far as the "breeder" goes, I would see if she will accept some helpful advice about the conditions her rabbits live in. Some people simply don't know and unless someone offers to educate them they may never know what they are doing. If she won't acknowledge the poor cage structures that her rabbits are living in, then I would call the humane society or animal control.


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## SilverBirchRabbitry (Jul 17, 2009)

I just brought the babies home today :]
They aren't very big but they are now 6-7 weeks old. They are adorable. Although Tessa's ears are taking a while to lop, they will drop eventually right? Firefly has 1 ear lopped, he lops the other one when he feels like it. Tessa does drop her ears every now and then though. 

I also couldn't help myself, my 4H leader went to an auction and brought home 4 lionheads which were 7 weeks and 4 hollands which are also 7 weeks. She kept 1 of the Lionheads and 3 of the hollands. The REW she had, she was hoping for him to be a doe because he is filling out nicely and she needs another showing/breeding doe, but it turns out he is a buck xD She also already owns a REW buck, so she gave him to me  REW is my favorite color on Hollands. I named him Cadbury, like the cadbury commercial bunnies lol

I will post some pics of the 3 very soon


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## Sweetie (Jul 17, 2009)

Glad to hear that the babies are doing great. You are such a wonderful person. Can't wait to see more pics. They are so cute.


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## Sweetie (Jul 17, 2009)

Glad to hear that the babies are doing great. You are such a wonderful person. Can't wait to see more pics. They are so cute.


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## Numbat (Jul 17, 2009)

Can't wait for the PICS!!!!! I LOVE the names and they are soo adorable! What did you end up doing about the breeder?


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jul 17, 2009)

*SilverBirchRabbitry wrote: *


> No, they do not have their pedigrees. But my 4H group and my leader don't beleive in just breeding for show. Alot of the 4H bunnies are unpedigreed pets



Pedigrees are not about breeding for show, pedigrees are about keeping track of the genetics that go into each and every rabbit. They are a very important and responsible way to keep track of what you're breeding, and most reputable breeders keep them, although some who are breeding for meat do not.

I would highly suggest at least starting to keep pedigrees on your rabbits, or starting over with pedigreed rabbits. You will also have much more interest from outside breeders and the show community in your rabbits. If you don't keep pedigrees, you're very much limiting yourself and your sales to just 4-H. So, just an idea.


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## SilverBirchRabbitry (Jul 17, 2009)

I do normally only breed pedigreed stock, all of our English's, French's, Netherlands and my Jersey Woolie are pedigreed, it is just the lops and my 2 pet rabbits that arent, but thanks anyways.

I normally try to stay away from unpedigreed stock.


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## anneq (Jul 17, 2009)

I'm glad to hear the little ones are doing good (one of my HL's ears didn't start drooping till she was close to 2.5mos. so no need to worry).
Post pics when you can - I love the HL's


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