# Harlequin Flemish



## weedflemishgiants (Aug 3, 2008)

This is a problem for me.I have three lines of flems that have no harlie genes. None. 

But I have done all the breeding with them I can do without crossing my lines which I really really don't want to do. For one thing thre are color issues.

So I went on a search for new rabbits. i have one or two coming from back east after Kentucky ARBA.

Our flem pop is really small here on the west coast. I have to be careful not to buy rabbits mine are too closely related too and the actual fact is where I am all the flems here are brother and sister to mine. Which is great because I sold them all but the downside is getting new stock.

There are two or three breeders out here really heavy into breeding harlequin flemish. They make great pets I guess. But they have sold so many of these (and not always mentioned the harlie) to other people that the other people are just now finding out their rabbits are carrying the harlie gene. A real bummer for those who want to show their rabbits.

So now it is an added complication that I have to make sure I get no harlie flems but I can't always tell when there is harlie because some of the them come out nice solid color fawns. So I only know of ONE breeder in California, ONLY ONE that absolutey will not sell me a harlie fawn, white or sandy. But our lines may be too closely related- I don't know yet.

Now another breeder was telling me the other day that the harlie gene can be turned off or eliminated with proper breeding. I can't see that happening. It seems the harlie gene might be suppressed completely but pop up later in just the right breeding pair. I don't see that it is realistic to assume the rabbit line would never carry it. Does anyone know what she is talking about? "Getting rid of a gene"? 

My current rabbits are carrying six gen pedigrees with no harlie in them. And the foundation stock came from three breeders back east who I KNOW did not breed harlies in. So mine are free of the gene and I would like them to stay that way.

Very frustrating. I will have to get ALL my new stock from back east which is expensive and takes a long time.


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## undergunfire (Aug 3, 2008)

A Harlequin Flemish? Do you have pictures?!


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## weedflemishgiants (Aug 3, 2008)

No I don't have any.

You can see pictures if you google for Double L Rabbit Ranch. She has a bunch of them mostly blue and white, black and fawn.


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## JadeIcing (Aug 4, 2008)

*weedflemishgiants wrote: *


> No I don't have any.
> 
> You can see pictures if you google for Double L Rabbit Ranch. She has a bunch of them mostly blue and white, black and fawn.


OMG! The nine Fawn Flemish together!!! My dream is to be owned by a fawn flemmie doe. I even have her name!


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## BlueGiants (Aug 4, 2008)

That Harli gene can be carried recessively (hidden) for many generations. You may not see it, but it's there. I don't know any way to "breed it out" and if it doesn't present, I don't know anyway to be sure it's bred out of a line. I know several (Mid-west) breeders that have had "surprises" 3, 4 and 5 generations after introducing an unknowncarrier. 

I know some breeders on the East Coast have lines that don't carry it. And some breeders in the northern Mid-west have clean lines too. Geographically, it can be difficult to acquire rabbits that have what you want. But the effort is well worth it, if you get what you want and what your lines need. It's real important to deal with someone who is honest and has the same ideals in mind as you do.


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## LadyBug (Aug 4, 2008)

*undergunfire wrote: *


> A Harlequin Flemish? Do you have pictures?!


my thought exactly, LOL!


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## FallingStar (Aug 4, 2008)

Hmmm, that's very strange...

:?


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## weedflemishgiants (Aug 4, 2008)

It would be one thing if there was a standard for it. But there is not. So it complicates the lives of breeders for shows.

Not only that but in my experience breeding it in is bringing other problems as well. For instance one friend of mine who got a bunch of blues had terrible malocclusions in them. So he returned the blues to the breeder who said "I am so glad to have them back. Their brother died and he was the only one left with the harlie gene"

I'm afraid my friend was less than happy for two reasons. No one told him he had bought blues with harlie genes- a complete surprise- and also the breeder immediately set about breeding these harlie flems with malocclusions.

Wow. So you know I got my copy of domestic rabbits last week and in under research and development, they were talking about the need to research why malocclusions were on the increase? I mean, well, duh. Isn't it obvious? People are breeding maloccluded rabbits for heaven's sakes.



I had the same problem with a flem I got last year. Gorgeous rabbit, but small. Ended up with the worst malocclusion the vet had ever seen. Researching this supposedly pure bred flem I discovered her mom was a beveran. Bummer for me.

We had to put the bunny down it was so bad. Thankfully- she was never bred.

It is just like a minefield shopping for good flems out here. LOL


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## BlueGiants (Aug 4, 2008)

I don't think the Harli will ever be accepted as a Flemish Variety. (JMHO) You are in apredicament. Breeding with locally available Flemish might not be the best option. If you get a "clean" buck and doe, they and their offspring can be crossed with your other 3 lines. (Sorry, I'm not sure what colors you are working with besides Sandy). If you can acquire Flemish from honest breeders that are open about what their lines carry, you would have something to continue with. 

My barn has been "closed" to new blacks or blues for several years now. For some of the same reasons you mentioned... We have some breeders on the east coast working with Opals... and a blue that carries Opal is not coming into my breeding lines. We have some people crossing a Continental Giant into their Flemish. Are the offspring still purebred Flemish? (Because the Continental has a different written standard, I don't think so... others may disagree.And the Continental is not an accepted breed in this country.) 

I have nothing against developing new colors, or improving breeds. But people buying those rabbits don't always know they are getting a genetic pool mixture that many breeders don't want in their lines.


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## weedflemishgiants (Aug 5, 2008)

I know I am getting one or twofawns from a good breeder in Michigan this year out of ARBA. 

Those I am sure are clean. 

My sandy line I have been breeding BEFORE the continentals got out here. The problem with the continentals when I have seen them at shows out here is their body type is all wrong for a flemish. To straight in the rise. What am I saying? there is no rise. 

So I know my sandies are clean. I am getting also two sandies from down south, acrossthat is clean.

My other line is from a good mid west breeder. OUt of rabbits he sent out here from ARBA. So THOSE are clean as well. Funny thing is none of mywhites look anything like the other whites around here so I may have to get one more white out from him. My whites are much larger, longer and with longer ears.

So right now, I KNOW my lines are clean, no beverans, new zealands and no harlequins.

I have heard of NO one breeding opals yet out here. Everything else but not opals. One of the major problems of breeding for harlie is they do not have the same body type, head shape or ears as flemish either. So it doesn't just screw up the color, it screws up everything.

And then to top it all off, a friend of mine called me a little while ago and told me a person who bred two blue rabbits together got lilacs. Lilacs. And I said no way it must be an off colored blue. And apparently one of our all time most famous judges because he won ARBA with a flemish DQ'd the juniors because, sure enough, they are lilacs. The only thing I can think is the two blue parents must have been carrying the lilac harlequin gene and no one told the buyers. 

Therein lies the rub. I have nothing against people experimenting with rabbits. But they kind of need to tell the future owners what they are getting.





_Edited to remove names._


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## BlueGiants (Aug 5, 2008)

Your friends "lilacs" may just be very poorly colored blues. It is the main reason I do a blue-black breeding (as opposed to a blue-blue breeding) at least every second or third generation. The black keeps the blue color strong and deep. Too many generations of Blue-Blue breedings can really wash out the color. Yeah, they may present as Lilac's, for lack of a better description.

The blue color is recessive, very recessive. It has to be worked on very diligently and consistantly. Any blacks crossed in have to be "self" blacks... no Light Gray, no Steel, no White. Straight blue and black lines. (It's taken me YEARS to develop my own black lines for crossing with the blues. Blacks are always an "afterthought" to most breeders. Very few "do" black... some keep them just for crossing back into steels and light grays.... ) I'd suggest your friend locate a good black to cross with one of their blues. Don't repeat that blue-blue cross... the blue gene could be too dilute, too washed out.


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## weedflemishgiants (Aug 6, 2008)

Hmm. That is what I thought myself. I have seen many washed out blues but I would not call them lilacs. But everyone else is calling them lilacs so....we have an awful lot of lilacs out here then. LOL

How in the world does someone get an opal color in a flem? What colors do you have breed to get it, or does it take another breed to introduce it?


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## BlueGiants (Aug 6, 2008)

You get an opal by crossing a blue and a sandy... the results of that breeding are commonly called chestnut steels (UGLY! ....JMHO!). Those offspring bred back to a blue (or to each other... yuck!) usually result in opals or something close. Unfortunately, any blues out of the breedings have poor color and can't be used for breeding anything except opals. And any Sandys that "pop" out later have color problems and can't be used with other Sandys.

I know people do it... I know breeders on the west coast as well as the east coast that cross colors, but I don't think it's the right thing to do. Some breeders have been trying for years to get the opal accepted as the "8th Variety"... but it's never been accepted.


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## weedflemishgiants (Aug 6, 2008)

Okay I can see that and yes now I read your description- I HAVE seen them.

But the opals and contis- they will become non issues. Because a. we have enough good sandy colored stock in the states that we don't need to worry about that. We don't have as much blue but the variety will still exist.

The contis- first you have the issue of the dark, dark, german sandy color which is not standard anyway, the contis are not recognised IN this country yet and most of all no one in their right mind is going to want to buy a flemish for show that has a flat back. Which for all practical purposes is what flemish/conti crosses produce. Flat backs with big heads and ears and too dark of a color.

I don't see opals and contis as nearly the issue as harlie flems. That is a HUGE problem. In every litter of flems with harlie in the back ground you get maybe two or three blotchy babies- not true harlies- and a gaggle of solid good looking flemish. It is the solid color good looking flemish that is the problem because they have that harlie yet there is no way to know it at all unless someone tells you.

So people buy these harlie flems not knowing they are harlies and actually win at the show. This is a HUGE problem. One just cannot cull for color to get rid of it like opals.Not possible. Especially when you consider the body type of the original harlie bred in as a Japanese harlie- radically different from a flemish.


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## BlueGiants (Aug 6, 2008)

The conti's, when crossed with Flemish, are throwing babies with some rise. (Yeah, with HUGEheads and incredibly wide ears!) When crossed with whites, (or with whites out of a cross) the white babies mask all background color. And they are being sold as Flemish. Now cross them with your Light grays or Steels... and guess what you get... 

The first generation Conti crosses (with Sandys) do not have good color, but bred back to Sandys, the color improves slightly... Unfortunately, sold as Juniors, they don't look bad... as Seniors, they develop black/grey bars on the legs, dark heads, unusual ear lacing... By the third generation the color improves... but again, you still get some poorly colored offspring. 

Conti's were crossed into Flemish many years ago... and a lot of the old time breeders still see color and confirmation issues in some lines. 

The Harli's are a problem. I know some breeders think they can "breed it out". And after a while, with diligence, itshould show up less and less... many, many generations forward... but as you said, you can never be sure if you have a carrier. And it makes it really hard when you need to introduce new rabbits to the line.


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## weedflemishgiants (Aug 6, 2008)

I'm not sure what yu would get crossing one of those to a steel. A gold flecked steel maybe? 

I don't know. the only time I saw them was when someone brought one to a show out here. And it's back was FLAT, oh yeah.

Huge head, wide wide ears and a gigantic rear end but not a detectable rise. The hips were up in the air and also it resulted with the hips being significantly wider than the shoulders.

Maybe three gens down it works I don't know. I just saw the first crosses. They were brought TO the show but not entered as there were not pure bred.


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## weedflemishgiants (Aug 6, 2008)

Bars yeah I forgot about bars. They would have those as well.

The steel crossing does not bother me as much as crossing with a black or a light gray. What a prescription for disaster.

Are you saying that in the sandiesthey lose that German dark shade in the second gen?


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## BlueGiants (Aug 6, 2008)

It takes a few generations to lessen the dark shading... and it may not show in all the offspring after 3 - 4 generations, but it's never completely gone. Just like the Harli genes. You never know when they will pop up again!


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## weedflemishgiants (Aug 7, 2008)

So now I am looking at my evans register and it is telling me I can set the phenotypes for the bunns. I only raise Flemish, but I have all the color genetics on the register for every rabbit known to mankind but I don't know how to set the non defaults to Flemish. Do you?


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## weedflemishgiants (Aug 7, 2008)

Where are the bars coming from? Are you talking about the white crosses bred back to a sandy and THEIR offspring show bars?


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## BlueGiants (Aug 7, 2008)

Yes, I saw brown/black barring on the front legs, very black ears and unusualblack shading on the loinon the third generation out (whites bred back to Sandy).


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## weedflemishgiants (Aug 8, 2008)

Okay good to watch for. Unfortunately now there is some dispute among the rest of us as to who has what. We know one guy up north claims he imported contis and his friend back east also makes the same claim. But I checked the website for a guy in the mid west who imported contis which are actually good looking animals and they look NOTHING at all like the supposed contis up north here. So hey- the differences are so extreme I don't think these guys all have contis. I know they SAY they are contis but man contis must come in a huge array of shapes and sizes then. 

The contis I saw were way way over 20 lbs- closer to 30 actually and resembled Flemish but not as strongly as those contis in the midwest, the largest of which is only standard weight of 20. 5 lbs.

Are we sure we are all talking about the same rabbit breed here? This is WEIRD. I am thinking they are not all contis. I think some of them are German or British Giants which ARE huge.


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## BlueGiants (Aug 8, 2008)

Unfortunately, I think what some people call a Continental and what the British Standard defines as a Continental might be different. The Conti's I saw were from Holland. (I was told there are a lot of restrictions on exporting Conti's out of the UK.)

I've never seen barring on any of the true bred Continentals (in any of the photo's I've seen).


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## weedflemishgiants (Aug 8, 2008)

The true contis I have seen are gorgeous.

Let me go to HOlland and see what they are calling conties and then britain. I have links to both on my web.


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## weedflemishgiants (Aug 8, 2008)

Wow- looking at the europe pictures-

the first thing that shocks me are the ears. It also frightens me as I have been seeing those ears pop up here and especially in the Washington rabbits. So far I have only seen those ears in whites though.

Theother are the colors- way off from ours especially their standard color of opal.

I wonder if the opals you have been seeing are actually contis.


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## weedflemishgiants (Aug 8, 2008)

Yeah. both the holland site and british site for continentals-

the ears are really really funky. The heads don't fit the ears either. And the ears kind of flare out half way up and curve on the backs. Not good ears for flemish.

Then looking at what I think is called steel over there- do you realise that it is choc. brown cast? When I looked at the winning rabbits, the dark steels is what I would call them had solid color muzzles that were choc. brown. They also had choc. brown on the feet.

Then when I compared top lines- I know people are telling me these rabbits haverise but it is not mandolin shaped. Not at all. The rise is way too level and I can't tell from the pictures for sure but it is definately starting earlier than our rises.

Much closer to the shoulders than ours, but that might be due to the bulkiness in front. I can't tell. And then to make matters worse, it looks like it starts to flatten too soon. The type is really really not the same at least as far as topline goes. Not at all.

It also looks like they have shorter clunkier legs. But in show stance, who can know?

I have not found a good picture of an opal conti yet.


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## BlueGiants (Aug 8, 2008)

They do show them sitting up as opposed to our position. Yeah, the ears are very different. The German Giants have to have a minimum ear WIDTH... almost 6 inches across! Quite a difference.


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## Flemish Guy (Aug 13, 2008)

Reading about these crossings and the color issues makes me wonder what is going to become of Flemish Giants, my first response was to start breeding more to make more Flemish available because I know my lines are clean and if there is a question I will not breed that rabbit for any reason. But my problem is that I really do get attached to these bunnies and I want them to go to a home where they are not neglected and are given the care they need and deserve. I have heard of many instances of these rabbits getting sore hocks or dying from the heat or a breeder just not need the rabbit any longer and destroying a healthy animal. I just feel I owe these animals something if I am the reason they are brought into this world. I just hope that these crossings dont eventually bring an end to these wonderful animals.


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## weedflemishgiants (Aug 13, 2008)

Nothing is going to happen to the Flemish. this has all happened before when they were crossed to make bigger E Lops in France, and crossed to be foundational for almost ALL the meat breeds. And remember the Flemish Rex? Now an extinct variety? Bred to make bigger better fur coats?

The Flemish will be fine because there ARE so many breeders working to keep their lines clean. I know of eight breeders right now that will not allow crossings in their barn.

As far as selling your babies- you need to give it a try. for one thing you want to find other people who will love the breed and keep it going, and secondly, you don't want to end up with too many rabbits cause that is not good for them.

Try to relax. You can screen your buyers and you can ear tag your rabbits as a pet and you can sell it without a pedigree- you can offer discounts if the buyer proves they neutered or spayed the rabbit- that way you know they didn' t breed it. Lots of things you can do.

You can also be like me and charge a fortune- my new thing- cause that way you know they are really going to care for their investment.


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## BlueGiants (Aug 14, 2008)

Ido not think anything is going to happen to the Flemish breed. There are a LOT more than 8 breeders that care about where their rabbits come from and where they are going. (I'd say the majority of Flemish Breeders are very conscientious and dedicated to the breed.) 

And yes, the breed has been through this before. Conti's were introduced back in the 60's and crossed into a lot of lines.Some breeders, to this day, get "throw backs" to the old style body type and colors. The Flemish rexwas promoted "back in the day". Some breeders still see an occasional rex fur type. Beverens and Americans were crossed in to improve the blue color... but wrecked havoc with the size and type! (And you can argue that the Flemish influenced a lot of other breeds, both good and bad!) That's why we have a strict standard that judges adhere to and breeders use as the ultimate guide.


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## gentle giants (Aug 14, 2008)

I think probably all breeds go through this sort of thing at one time or another. Flemish are really popular around here as pets, most people don't have a clue as far as type. I haven't bred in two years, and I still have people occasionally contact me looking for pet Flemish. I have heard there is someone just a few miles from me that is now breeding Flemish, and evidently a lot of them becuase they have business cards out in the feed store. It makes me cringe, I have thought about just going out there and looking around to see what they have, but I'm afraid of whatI might find.



Oh, and BlueGiants--I would never cross Flemmies with any other breed, but I would still love to get my hands on one of those Flemish-Conti crosses, just for a pet. I bet they are impressive size-wise!


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