# Color advice needed



## evansrabbitranch (Feb 13, 2011)

Ok I have 2 votes for blue point, but I do not see blue. I was taught that with angoras the color is based on the normal fur on the face, not the wool as the wool gene can distort color a lot. I also have several people saying no, look at the face its a smoke pear. These are not the best pics, but its what I have right now.



















When I first got him, he was dirty and badly needed burshed. The dirt in his coat had me thinking siamese sable at first. Now I am clueless and getting more confused :?.

I wanted to show him but I have to know for sure what color he is. I was told the former owners showed him and was assured his is a blue point, but I can't see how I can believe that as he has no tatoo and I know they must be tatooed to be shown. Please help!


----------



## Jaded (Feb 14, 2011)

To me it looks like a Siamese Sable going thru a molt.
It is deffently not a blue point, blue points only have light points on there nose and ears.
Smoke Pearls are not the only ones with dark faces.

It sounds like their person you got him from lied to you about him being shown, ive had that happen before to.

Does he have a pedigree? what colors are his parents?


----------



## evansrabbitranch (Feb 14, 2011)

Oh yes, I have his pedigree and I found the person that sold the parent stock to the person I got him from and they verified everything except his color. They will see him tomorrow night as they actually run the rabbits 4h.

The sire is Black, Dam is listed as Sable but the person who sold him the parents says she is positive she was a black. Sire's parents are Black and REW, the black's parents are broken blue torte and black. The REWs parents are REw and REW. The Dam's parents are sable and broken chocolate. The sable's parents are black and black. The broken chocolate's parents are black and broken blue.

Now there's a hodge podge for ya. Thank you again for any help. Also if it helps the pedigree I got has a photo of him taken I believe last October, maybe November. I took the photo for them. The photo shows the face color not as far down the neck as it is now, and the wool is a creamy off white, now the rabbit's face color covers the neck and the wool has a brownish tint to it but is still off white. I tried to copy the photo off the file, but it didn't work. Ah, I found it in another place, here it is:


----------



## Shaded Night Rabbitry (Feb 14, 2011)

Easy peasy, he's a COLORED! lol!

But seriously, he's a siamese sable/seal. I'm a shaded freak, and you can't fool me even with wool. (Sable point satin angoras are my goal. ;P)


----------



## 4kr (Feb 14, 2011)

Looks like a siamese sable to me!;-) Pretty bun by the way!


----------



## twinkiez (Feb 14, 2011)

Siamese Sable


----------



## Skybunny11 (Feb 14, 2011)

Looks like a Siamese Sable, Ive been looking for one but none of the breeders around me have any  He's very cute!


----------



## Starlight Rabbitry (Feb 15, 2011)

*Shaded Night Rabbitry wrote: *


> Easy peasy, he's a COLORED! lol!
> 
> But seriously, he's a siamese sable/seal. I'm a shaded freak, and you can't fool me even with wool. (Sable point satin angoras are my goal. ;P)



Siamese Sable and Seal are two different colors. The rabbit in the pic would be a Siamese Sable. 

Sharon


----------



## ChocolateBunny (Feb 15, 2011)

I DONT KNOW!! anic:


----------



## Sabine (Feb 16, 2011)

*Starlight Rabbitry wrote: *


> *Shaded Night Rabbitry wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Easy peasy, he's a COLORED! lol!
> ...


I would have thought dark siamese sable and seal are the same. In the Uk they are to my knowledge once the rabbit carries c[sup]chl[/sup]c[sup]chl[/sup]


----------



## evansrabbitranch (Feb 16, 2011)

Siamese Sable is genetically aaB_cchl_D_E_ Seal is genetically aaB_cchlcchlD_E_. Related colors but not the same.



Thanks all for the help. I will have to fix his pedigree then. I had to contact the head of the 4h here for advice because the people I got him from who claimed he was in dire need of a home would I please take him and care for him, now want him back because I am questioning his color. These are people I was helping to identify SELFs for petes sake. Shadeds are new to me and much more difficult when wooled.


----------



## evansrabbitranch (Feb 17, 2011)

I got a new photo of him, he's getting more smokey black/gray to his wool. Its very interesting to see, and when I brush it becomes more visable as I remove the old wool from his coat. I just wish he wasn't so afraid of me


----------



## evansrabbitranch (Feb 17, 2011)

Now I am totally thrown for a loop. I got my membership from the ARBA and my new standard of perfection and well . . . .If he is genetically a smoke pearl he would be DQed for having brown eyes. If he is genetically sable he'll be DQed for the blue tassels on his ears and wool on his legs under his coat kinda hidden that is also blue. I am so lost. I'm giving up on finding out his color and I won't be trying to show him. He'll be just fine as a sweet wooly pet. Seeing as how to my untrained eye he looks a little of both sable and smoke pearl.


----------



## Shaded Night Rabbitry (Feb 18, 2011)

One gene difference, I know. I say seal/sable because with wool it's VERY hard to tell. We would have to see him at 2 weeks to know for sure.... >.


----------



## evansrabbitranch (Feb 18, 2011)

Ya know I asked about that since the guy I got him from had produced him and the only baby pic he had was supposedly this guy's brother. Was all black with some silvery ticking all over, said he sold that one as a sable but did not have an older pic to show how he changed. I give up, I love him just the way he is


----------



## pamnock (Feb 19, 2011)

I agree either siamese sable (I'm leaning towards siamese sable)or seal. However, Angoras are shown as either colored or white - knowing the actual variety isn't necessary. I think what you're seeing as "blue" on the tassels and legs is probably just diffused sable color. The bigger concern would be to make sure he makes weight and has the proper wool type.


----------



## Shaded Night Rabbitry (Feb 19, 2011)

OhOhOH btw, they reallllly don't care about color. XD I've seen huge genetic messes pass through with flying colors. Like, things not even close to being accepted. lmbo!

My goal is still sallander or sable point SA's, but I'd probably have to buy a siamese satin buck to outcross to anyway. It'd be just as difficult as using a tort or orange to make true sable points in the long run. *facepalm* So goes with color projects when angora folk just kinda.... breed stuff together, and get 7 different colors in a litter. (Black tort, blue tort, chocolate agouti, lynx, fawn, chocolate ermine/pearl? and something else I don't remember from a chin x lynx.


----------



## pamnock (Feb 20, 2011)

Even though Angoras are colored/white, the judge "should" be looking at each rabbit and determining whether or not the color is accepted. However, I have also seen a number of non-accepted wooled breed varietiesslip through.


----------



## Toastasaraus (Feb 22, 2011)

lol you've seen it pass through with more than Wooled breeds!!!! Because you've been with me when I show my Seals as Siamese sables and they WIN not only their class but variety OH OH and not to mention the messed up blue gold tipped/opal thing my Mom bought that won a leg....


----------



## pamnock (Feb 22, 2011)

Remember that a siamese sable being "too dark" (seal) is just a fault according to the ND Standard. I've seen a number of times when nice seals have done well being shown as siamese sables. With general type being 70 points and color being 15, the judge is going to pick the best type, even if it may have poor color. (Of course, completely "wrong" color would be a DQ).


----------



## Toastasaraus (Feb 22, 2011)

well a gold tipped steel with banding is a completely wrong color but she won a leg anyway... It happens a lot. Judges tend to judge on what they like not necessarily what the standard calls for. I've also noticed judges just disregarding color on breeds that don't call for many points for color. That and I've even had judges that didn't know the point break downs for the breed they were judging


----------



## pamnock (Feb 22, 2011)

*Toastasaraus wrote: *


> well a gold tipped steel with banding is a completely wrong color but she won a leg anyway... It happens a lot. Judges tend to judge on what they like not necessarily what the standard calls for. I've also noticed judges just disregarding color on breeds that don't call for many points for color. That and I've even had judges that didn't know the point break downs for the breed they were judging




It would be the judge's call if they would consider the banding over the back "obvious" as to whether or not they'd DQ. Slight banding over the sides is permissable, so it can be a little bit of a gray area as to where the judge will draw the line.

Also, ARBA rules clearly state that the judge is "to give each rabbit or cavy the benefit of the doubt". So unless the DQ is clearly obvious, the judge should give the benefit of the doubt to the animal-faultingrather than DQing (according to ARBA rules).


----------



## Toastasaraus (Feb 22, 2011)

Lol well she has a DEFINITE triangle and banding going on. There is also a lot of trouble with Steels in flemish, because they will also have a triangle over their shoulders and banding that I can see when the judge blows into their coat (some nice "tweeners" in this area). The thing is they both have so little points for color the judges tend to look over it. That's why it was pointed out earlier that judges don't really look at color in the Angoras.


----------



## pamnock (Feb 22, 2011)

A triangle at the nape of the neck isn't an issue. It's not evenmentioned in some breed standards. In the Netherland steel, the nape can be black "or" match the ticking color (light brown). The judge would be incorrect in DQing or even faulting for a distinct triangle at the nape of the neck.


----------



## evansrabbitranch (Feb 24, 2011)

Wow, this is a lot of great info! I need to get another pic of him, his wool has changed a lot. So, I can show him if I get him used to being handled well? That's good to know!


----------



## pamnock (Feb 25, 2011)

You can show him. Be sure to check the weight. Also - what is his age?


----------



## evansrabbitranch (Feb 25, 2011)

9 almost 10 months old. I tried to weigh him but I only have a smaller scale that does up to 11 lbs, I could not see the weight lol. He covered it up. I will try to get a peoples scale to weight him with, I need one anyway.


----------



## pamnock (Feb 26, 2011)

He needs to weigh 7 1/2 - 10 1/2 lbs. to be shown. His coat appears to be rather soft in the photo, but he still may have a softer junior coat.


----------



## evansrabbitranch (Mar 3, 2011)

Yeah, its getting denser and not so soft now. He is still molting out the soft lighter colored wool. As the darker stuff comes in I am seeing more guard hairs, before I saw none. He's a slow molter though so I do not know if he will be ready to show in April, if not I will look for another show to take him to


----------

