# Split Penis Genetics



## murph72 (Jul 2, 2009)

A friend of mine has a Holland that she got for breeding purposes. She has now gotten two bucks with split penises from the litters she's had from him. These two bucks came from separate does, so I'm guessing he's the common link. However, I didn't know if split penis needed to be carried by both parents (meaning he and both does carried it) or if it was a trait that only one parent needed to carry in order to pass it on (as in he is the culprit and should be eliminated from her breeding program). Does anyone know if it recessive or dominant? I couldn't find it on the internet. Oh, and you can just imagine the smut I found typing in "split penis genetics" :blushan: It was embarrasing, to say the least! 

I'm not sure I can talk her into cutting him from her breeding program. She was very angry when the first buck with a split penis developed because she had intended to keep him and add him to her breeding program as well. I should also add that these are chocolates and she paid a pretty penny for them. She wants to breed me a doe, but I really want to know which of her chocolates to avoid (other than said buck who was involved in both breedings). 

So, what does everyone know about penis genetics? :biggrin2: I know this is going to be the most popular post of the day. All I need now are graphic photos to spice it up. LOL


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## DeniseJP (Jul 2, 2009)

The only thing I remember is that you don't want to use bucks with split penises in your breeding program as the fault will reappear, if I remember right and it is carried onward... maybe the breeder she got the rabbits from will exchange the rabbit for a different one from a different line...if I was breeding I would want to know so I did not create more of that fault.

I don't know about the genetics behind it... what do the pedigrees look like - are the animals line bred at all (like the sire and the does having a common relative even though they were not related directly)? Maybe the blending of the blood from some common ancestors earlier in the pedigrees brought it out?

Good luck - 

Denise


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## CorkysMom (Jul 2, 2009)

I would talk to the original breeder, I would think they'd replace the buck. Especially if he was that spendy!

Don't know on the genetics piece, but I will be watching this to see what others think.


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## murph72 (Jul 2, 2009)

She swears to me that he does not have a split penis himself...which I truly have not seen but I'll take her word for it. That means, to me anyway, that he's a carrier of that genetic defect. She did remove the buck with the split penis (that was the son of this one) from her breeding program. I'm just afraid she'll see it reoccur unless she gets rid of the father. Though, I could be totally wrong. If it needs to be carried by both than she has three bunnies that carry the abnormality.

I doubt the breeder will exchange it with her....knowing that breeder personally I think she'd deny it. She's a breeder I will no longer deal with as I find her shady, to say the least.


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## murph72 (Jul 2, 2009)

Corkysmom,

Yeah, the genetics part of it interests me asa breeder. I guess I'm glad it's not me that has this problem....but I want to make sure I understand it in case I ever do. I guess I can look at it more objectively since it isn't mine. I just want to understand the genetics of it.


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## NorthernAutumn (Jul 2, 2009)

This is very educational; I've never actually heard of this before!  
Is it simply a deformity, or does it cause pain to the bun?

(Titillating title too :coolness::biggrin2:, by the way... certainly sparked my curiosity!LOL )


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## murph72 (Jul 2, 2009)

I don't believe it causes pain to the bun. It basically is that they are born with an opening in the shaft of their manhood. It's not raw looking and the ones I've seen do not seem to be in any kind of pain...so no worries there.

If you want the graphics, Barbi Brown shows (with pictures) how to determine the gender of a bun and also shows pictures of a split penis here:http://www.barbibrownsbunnies.com/gender.htm

I was always told that it was a genetic deformity that could be passed on to the offspring. It is a disqualification for showing a buck, so a buck that has a split penis should not be used in a breeding program. However, the buck I'm talking about shows no signs of the condition, but I fear he's passing it on to his offspring....which is not how I originally thought it occurred. Hopefully someone out there knows more about this than I do.  

They say it is harder for the buck to impregnate a doe due to his condition...however, my friend's buck did impregnate a doe prior to her realizing that he was a buck and not a doe. Often a baby buck will look like a doe when checked early on. In the case of my friend, she had what she thought were two does together from when they were about 3 months old. By 4 months old her one doe was pregnant. She checked the other "doe" and found out it was a buck.


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## clevername (Jul 3, 2009)

wow its really weird you bring this topic up. I'm in the same situation.

I have a buck (a grand champion no less) who has produced sons from 2 different mothers, 2 of his sons has developed splits. The were normal at the 8 week mark but developed a split at the tip past 12 weeks of age (yes, weird and its good thing I thought to checked again!).

The sire is fine, no split...in fact he's an excellent rabbit...he's hit his mark every time so far. So I think I'm going to keep a close eye on the males coming out of his line and cull accordingly...he's just too nice to cut out of my breeding program.

I'll let you know if I discover anything. One of his sons looks normal so I may keep him just to see how his sons turn out...


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## peppa and georgie (Jul 3, 2009)

I dont really know about this but am i right in remembering that girls are xx and boys are xy so girls only have the female genetics and boys have both so they can produce boys and girls.????? In which case i dont think the girl can carry any genetics of any boy bits which means it has to be the father carrying it. Dont know on the probability of how often it could occur in the offspring though.
Sorry if i am totally wrong xx


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## murph72 (Jul 3, 2009)

It is the male that determines gender, but I don't know about genetic abnormalities that are related to sex organs. I remember my bio teacher in college saying that the man determines the gender, but most characteristics can be outweighed by what the female carries. He said there were only two of these characteristics, but the only one I can remember is hairy ear lobes. He said that if a man passed on hairy ear lobes that the woman's genetics could not counter that. He told us tobe wary of having children with a man with hairy ear lobes unless we weren't scared off by this characteristic. Of course, this is in humans...not so sure what overrides the bunnies hold.


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## peppa and georgie (Jul 3, 2009)

LOL that is funny xx yes i know what you mean, i was thinking that as the girls dont have a penis they shouldnt be able to carry a gene for a split or not split one but i am not sure. Will have to watch and see now if someone knows about it lol xx


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jul 3, 2009)

I don't think it is known exactly how split penis is passed down or carried. I personally cull any buck who produces it from my breeding program.


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## pamnock (Jul 3, 2009)

It isn't definitively know how split penis (hypospadias) is inherited in rabbits. One form in humans is X-linked (carried by the doe) - so that could be one possibility in rabbits.



Pam


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## murph72 (Jul 3, 2009)

Pam,

Thanks for weighing in. I'm sure you've probably heard debate about this since it is a reason for dq. 

Doyou know if anyone is doing any kind of genetic research on this? It seems like a worthwhile exploration. We as breeders can't successfully breed it out if we don't completely understand how it is passed on. 

I was guessing it was carried by the buck...especially after clevername said she had the same experience that my friend had. If it were carried by the doe, that would mean both does that each of them used had it. I know that my friend hasn't had problems with other litters from those two does paired with other bucks. That is what really lead me to believe the buck has to be carrying it. Now, maybe the doe has to carry it too? If it were recessive, I guess that would also have to be true. It's a puzzle. Unfortunately, my General Bio knowledge is only enough to make me dangerous. :biggrin2:


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## pamnock (Jul 3, 2009)

It appears to be a condition that may be affected by a number of gene mutations. This article demonstrates the complexity of the number of genes involved . . .

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n1/full/5201722a.html



Pam


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## clevername (Jul 20, 2009)

ok, I think I need to get my eyes checked because the 2nd buck turned out to be fine, no split. I must have been seeing things or jumped to conclusions after identifying the first buck.

The dam carrier theory may still hold some weight.

Right now the same doe that threw the first buck (who definitely had a split) is bred again. I'll be keep a close eye on the development of her sons.


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