# Rabbit acting VERY strange - Is it due to pine pellets or something else? Help!



## Junkie2 (May 5, 2011)

*IMMEDIATE INFORMATION: *


Location - *CT, USA*

Description (Breed, color, weight) - *Dwarf Lop, Brown/White, ~5lb*

Age -* 8 Months*

Sex - *Girl*

Concise Summary of the Rabbit's Condition: 
*I'll start off my admitting i made the critical error of actidently using pine pellets for litter. I feel horrible. This may or not be the cause of the following symtoms:
1)going to the bathroom all over her cage when she is litter trained
2) acting unresponsive in the morning
3) seems extremely frightened and standofish
4) poops less
5) sleeps in a different area on the ground (she ALWAYS used to sleep on her top shelf before this happened)
*


*ADDITIONAL INFORMATION / CHECK LIST*: (Please fill in relevant info).

Fecal and Urinary Output

- are the bunny's poops and pees normal? *less poop*
- when did they last use their litterbox?* today, but also other places when litter trained*
- any unusual behavior? straining to pee? unusual litter habits? *See above for unusual behavior, I dont know about straining to pee, and very unusual litter habits *
- what litter and/or bedding do you use? *Pine until i removed it today*

Medical History 

- spayed/neutered? *Spayed*
- has s/he been to the vet or been sick before? *Just to be Spayed*
- is s/he on any medications? *No*

Diet 

- what specifically does your bunny eat? *1/2 cup Timothy hay pellets + a lot of fresh veggies (2+ cups) and unlimited hay. I'd like to note that she does not drink water at all (gets from veggies i assume because she always peed a lot)*
- when and what did s/he eat last? *Same as above although i let her outside and she may eat anything*
- any changes in the way s/he eats? (ie: not eating a particular food, odd chewing motions, etc) *She doesn't finish her veggies always like she used to.*


Other

- movement - any unusual movements? Is s/he hopping normally? All good
- is the rabbit molting? No
- any weight loss? No
- any sign of drooling? wet face? *No*
- runny eyes? *No*
- wet nose? coughing? sneezing? *I may have heard a sneeze, not sure*
- is s/he breathing normally? *I dont know - sometimes it seems very fast or slow - I'm not sure what "normal" is.*

Additional

- any plants, chocolate or other substances within reach? *Plants from outside - nothing else *
- has the rabbit been outdoors? *I let her roam free outside for a lot of the day - She pretty much lives under my deck with food/water at all times. There have been no problems doing this for ~2 months now.*
- any other pets? *if so, have they been ill? 2 cats and a dog, not ill and don't mess with her*



Any Input is GREATLY appreciated.


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## plasticbunny (May 5, 2011)

Are the pine pellets recent? And are they pellets, or chips? I read somewhere that pellets are ok, because they dont have the oil content that chips do (dont quote me on that, though). If it does have something to do with the litter, all you need is a simple blood test at the vet to find out.


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## Nancy McClelland (May 5, 2011)

If the pine has been kiln dried it does not have the harmful phenols in it anymore.


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## Mindy (May 6, 2011)

Really good job posting all the information. I'm not a vet, but I do have a rabbit rescue and have dealt with many strange cases, especially in the rabbits I have adopted I am always learning more. I hope I can apply some of my experiences to your case.

The first thing I would do is get your bunny's blood checked. Pine can have some toxins that can be harmful, but if your bunny hasn't shown direct physical symptoms (ie. weight loss, change in size/shape of stool) then it may be something else causing the behaviour. 

How long ago was your bunny spayed? Female rabbits can go into a fake pregnancy easily, just based on stress, the introduction of a new pet in the family, a new male (any species) hanging around, etc. If your rabbit is going through a fake pregnancy these are symptoms she may show:
- Change in temperament (hostility, standoffish, shy, but NOT USUALLY lethargy) If your rabbit becomes lethargic, start supportive care and take her to a vet.
- Weight gain (not always but sometimes)
- Change in diet. (She may keep eating, but not as much, sometimes she'll want more fibrous foods like hay and alfalfa pellets, in stead of fresh greens)
- Change in stool (increased production of soft, but formed stool)(If her stool loses its form take her to a vet and start supportive care, cutting out most of her fresh greens and giving her lots timothy hay)
- Change in trained habits. (ie. going to the bathroom all over the place.)

A fake pregnancy might explain some of her symptoms, but keep her under your watch. Things you need to be aware of immediately are:

- lethargy
- appetite loss
- weight loss
- change in stool (Diarrhoea or change in shape/size or absence of)

These are signs that she needs to see a vet right away. 

In the meantime keep from using pine bedding and watch her close. Let me know how things turn out for her.


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## dragynflye (May 6, 2011)

pine PELLETS are perfectly safe, it's the shavings that are dangerous. the process that makes the pine into pellets removes the phenols, which are what is dangerous. 

if she isn't acting normal by now, i would take her to the vet. there's a few things that stand out to me. if she is pooping less, it could be she is working on an impaction. or, it could just be that she is eating less because she isn't feeling well. if she is outside unsupervised a lot, she may have eaten something harmful, or been bitten by something. she's acting frightened, something could have actually scared her, but it could be because she is in pain. she could be sleeping on the ground instead of her shelf because it's cooler. 

i'd definitely get her to a vet asap, but her symptoms are not because of the pine.


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## Maureen Las (May 7, 2011)

I agree that it is not the pine ...

She may have eaten something toxic while outside and/or been frightened while outside ; some of the symptoms are symptoms of beginning stasis.

It really is not safe to allow her to roam in an area unless you know exactly what is in that area. Rabbits can become very ill if they come in contact with any area frequented by raccoonsetc, also if they eat certain plants 
Poor appetite and less poop is a symptom of stasis but because of some of her other symptoms I would take her to a rabbit knowledgeable vet. 

Does her tummy feel distended and hard?


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## gmas rabbit (May 10, 2011)

We lost a rabbit about 5 years ago due to using pine pellets. He went into kidney failure and then heart failure. This was before pine pellets were ear marked as dangerous for rabbits. Bailey and 4 other rabbits that the rabbit rescue society somewhere in the eastern states all reacted the same way. I believe as a result the rabbit house society recommended that rabbit owner do not use pine pellets. I have tried to teach the pet shops here, but most turn a deaf ear to the info. 
we had used the pellets for an extended period of time. Best of luck:


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## Junkie2 (May 11, 2011)

Thank for all for the input. After removing the pine pellets she has resumed back to normal. 

I am very confused about this ongoing debate of whether pine pellets are safe or not, but it seems in this case it was the culprit...?

I do agree with those of you who said that she was frightened by another animal. I am having mixed emotions because i want to let her roam free but at the same time be safe. These days I just let her out in the morning and she is always by the door ~5 of so when i let her back in - no problems whatsoever, it's great.

But if this will be a problem in the long run i would definitely like to hear the negatives. 

And once again, thank you everyone.


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## isabelly (May 12, 2011)

Taken from
http://www.rabbit.org/faq/sections/litter.html#litter

"Compressed sawdust pellets: are inexpensive, highly absorbent litters used in many foster homes. They are made from softwood or hardwood sawdust, but they are not toxic because the phenolic compounds are removed during their manufacture. Their wood composition helps control bacterial growth and odors. Wood stove fuel pellets and Feline Pine are two examples of this product."

If this info has changed, I really want to know, as I am using Stall Dry and some wood stove pellet brand.


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## tonyshuman (May 12, 2011)

Pine pellets are safe. The reason for her sleeping in a different area is probably due to temperature changes. The peeing everywhere is probably marking due to sexual maturity (residual hormones). She also may be upset for some other reason, like seeing a predator.


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## jujub793 (May 12, 2011)

i too have tried to change from recycled paper pellets to the pine pellets because i saw an experiment someone on this forum did showing the pine pellets were quite a bit more absorbant that the paper pellets and people here said that pine pellets were ok for rabbits. i certainly would take the word of the people here because most everyone is very knowledgable... however i noticed right away that my rabbits don't seem to like it much. they started pooping everywhere except the litterbox where they are both litterbox trained and very good about using it. when i say pooping everywhere i mean specifically in their cage...in front of box, behind box everywhere EXCEPT the box. so i tried putting some of the paper pellets on top and kind of wean them off the paper pellets...they still knew... i don't know why but they just don't like it??? :?


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## Maureen Las (May 12, 2011)

*jujub793 wrote: *


> i too have tried to change from recycled paper pellets to the pine pellets because i saw an experiment someone on this forum did showing the pine pellets were quite a bit more absorbant that the paper pellets and people here said that pine pellets were ok for rabbits. i certainly would take the word of the people here because most everyone is very knowledgable... however i noticed right away that my rabbits don't seem to like it much. they started pooping everywhere except the litterbox where they are both litterbox trained and very good about using it. when i say pooping everywhere i mean specifically in their cage...in front of box, behind box everywhere EXCEPT the box. so i tried putting some of the paper pellets on top and kind of wean them off the paper pellets...they still knew... i don't know why but they just don't like it??? :?



A bun who is used to carefresh , or even aspen wood may just not like the change over to pine pellets because rabbit do like consistency ( the pine that is safe will say "kiln baked" on the packaging ..if you are not sure then call or email the manufacturere to determine if the pine is baked. The baking process destroys the pine oil that is the culprit in rabbit health issues 
I had one bun who had trouble with pine pellets (did not like them ) so I mixed the pine with his normal aspen shaving and gradually he got over his disdain for pine. 

The reason I changed to horse bedding ( kiln baked pine pellets) was due to cost. I could never afford even aspen shavings with9 rabbits and 2 guinea pigs.


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## Bluesmaven (May 12, 2011)

I have been using kiln dried pine pellets for years and have never had a problem with my buns. They do have a woody smell maybe your bun didn't like it?


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## golfdiva (May 17, 2011)

FWIW: My Hershey acted exactly like you described once. He has acted like that several more times but not so extreme. A little simithicone brought him right back to normal! I think the first time was more extreme because I didn't know what was going on and didn't give him simithicone. 

That's my two cents worth! lol!


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