# This poor family



## Must_Love_Pets

All I can say is WOW!!!



http://www.naturalnews.com/032476_rabbits_USDA.html



What are your thoughts on this?


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## Happi Bun

The fact they sold rabbits to Petland and this quote bug the hell out of me; 

_"...all while teaching their son honest values in a business environment similar to running a small lemonade stand."_ 

Except that lemonade are intelligent living animasl. I do wonder what the "insignificant" aspects of the raising facility that were in violation are.


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## Marrie

Using animal breeding as a way to teach your son responsibility irks me (and what responsible breeder with fine specimens for show sells to petland?), but the situation of the fine is a bit odd... they should have to explain exactly what the violation is at least. Hopefully they kick the charge.


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## Must_Love_Pets

My feel for the family is only because they thought they were doing good and not harm. If they were only schooled from the begining they could have done it the right way. Not selling to Petland. And here the kid is being raised to think he is doing right. I despise pet stores that sell live animals. About 99.999% are not educated enough to sell pets and that is part why we have so many abandoned and neglected animals. Poor bunners!


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## Marrie

I don't know - the article kind of makes me question their motives. They started off with two rescues - great. They accidentally bred, happens to the best of us sometimes. They didn't rehome the babies, they sold them, for $10-$15. They decided that breeding was a good idea, so began selling rabbits for meat (which is odd for a rescue-turned-breeder to be pumping out meat animals). Begin getting better lines in their rabbits so start selling them for show and petland offers to buy from them, so they sell them to a chain pet store. 

I would be interested in more information on the care of the rabbits and maybe some names of the people who offer such praise to the families care of them. They say "a judge" rather than "John Doe, judge of X rabbit show" ... anyone can say "well, a judge said our rabbits were cared for". Without more information, the things they did say, raise red flags on me about the family's breeding practices. But, they could be good breeders, I would need to hear more about them to decide. 

I have nothing against GOOD pet stores, or good breeders. I am just wary of most of them, because there are so many bad ones out there. 

But, no matter if their breeding practices were good or bad, the fine is ridiculous. If they were a backyard breeder, there are better ways to shut them down than an obscure law about selling more than $500 a year in rabbits.


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## Nancy McClelland

Petland! They are on my boycott list in the number one position. Next, the writer of the article seemed a tad biased and never mentioned what the problems were with the government--I thought journalist were supposed to "investigate" and give an unbiased account (sure!). I'll hold judgement til I am apprised of all the facts.


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## Marrie

Ha! Journalists that are unbiased are rare.


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## Yurusumaji

Lol! So biased that I can't be bothered to believe a word of it. Seems unlikely the family got magical pure lines from 2 rescue rabbits. It also never says the breeding between the first two rabbits was "accidental", it says they "ended up" breeding. That's a really vague way to say it and since they did not specifically say it was accidental, I really don't think it was. If it was clearly an accident, a good reporter would be certain to make that a very specific point in the article to defend the family.


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## Marrie

Further information on the case: 

"The fine is being issued by the USDA, which oversees the sale of animals, for selling more than $500 worth of rabbits in one year and for operating without a license. Between 2008 and 2009 they sold 619 rabbits, which earned them $4,600, with a profit of about $200."

619 rabbits, as both meat, pets. That is a lot for a "small family business like a lemonade stand". 

"The USDA reportedly found out about Dollarhite when an inspector was examining records at a licensed pet store who had obtained some of their rabbits. In 2009, an inspector showed up at their property and asked to do a spot inspection. She noted that cages were slightly too small and that there was a rust spot on a feeder. "

Cages being too small by USDA standards... means they were probably pretty small.  

USDA also claims they requested a license kit but never got one for their breeding - great way to teach your kid responsibility! They found out about the family's breeding by browsing pet stores logs of breeders they got their rabbits from. 

http://www.care2.com/causes/animal-welfare/blog/bunny-breeders-face-4-million-in-fines/


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## tamsin

It's a pretty poor example of how to run a business it that's their profit margin.

I guess the point is if they set themselves up as a business in competition with the big businesses that usually target that market then they have to follow the same rules they do. Millions is a bit ridiculous though, if there is no way they'd be able to pay it. It's a disproportionate. Could be that's the maximum penalty though the the journalists are using a bit of artistic licence implying that's how much they'll have to pay not, it will be something up to a maximum of that.


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## Must_Love_Pets

The whole thing is just sad. Not only teaching your children the world of busines and making money the right way, but the rabbits as well. I have mixed feelings about it all.


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## Marrie

They haven't given them the fine yet, they were fined $90,000 and the maximum is $4mil for refusing to pay their original fine.


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## bunnychild

that is so stupid how can they do that


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## bunnychild

it doesnt make much sense. the last part about the usda attacking families is just bs.


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## naturestee

The USDA was most likely brought in because rabbits were being sold for commercial purposes and are no longer just a small hobby, as most rabbit breeders are. How many responsible show breeders mass-produce rabbits for pet stores and a tourist attraction, as well as meat?

The article is from someone who is very anti-USDA. Coming from the granddaughter of two sets of farmers and married to someone who still helps out on his parent's farm, the majority of farmers have no problems with meeting USDA requirements and get lots of grants and other stuff through them.


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## mistyjr

The USDA is just plan stupid, All they care about is money, That is maybe why they want to sue for over million of dollars. Just plan stupid. I have now or heard that alot of breeders are getting into trouble because this, Not because they sold over $500 worth of rabbits or selling to petshops. Because they raising rabbits. And its more and more people everyday. Some arent so lucky, And some are.. Ugh!


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## LakeCondo

Misty, at best you are misinformed. Please read the post prior to yours.


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## MagPie

Hmmm I dunno about poor family. I find it a little fishy that this article doesn't state all the facts. No doubt the family didn't do their research on what license and such they would need to run a business that sells to a major chain. Ignorance is a poor excuse.


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## tmaddox9

Sure dint approve of breeding bunnies for meat...selling them to pet stores, not any better. Rescues usually spay or neuter their rabbits up for adoption and I seriously doubt any breeding was accidental.


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## Imbrium

while I question how a single family could *properly* care for upwards of 600 rabbits over the course of a year and am far from convinced they hadn't done anything to warrant being fined, 90k is freaking absurd. the vast majority of people don't even make that much money in a year working a full-time job! unless that family is secretly rich as hell, how on earth could they be expected to pay such an astronomical fine? I really don't see the justification for fining them significantly more than the amount of $ they made through rabbit sales in the year in question (the total amount, not just the profit). a 5k fine is enough to teach a lesson.

on a side note, why on earth would you go to ALL that work to bring THAT many rabbits into the world (when shelters are already overflowing) to make a "whopping" $200 a year? I can understand someone who shows rabbits breeding for little to no profit in order to better the lines and produce champions, but a) people who do that don't breed on SUCH a massive scale and b) that's totally not what these people were doing. I'm in favor of them being fined simply because I believe their behavior is dumb enough to warrant being charged a "stupid tax"... but not a 90k tax!


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## Acacia-Berry

I'm in Canada. This sounds fishy to me up here!
If the family raised and sold this many animals and we supplying a major petstore chain then they must have had a heck of a lot of bunnies on their property. Which would mean excessive inbreeding and constant pregnancies for the does in order to maintain the profit while also churning out rabbits from multiple does. To keep up with the supposed demand for their precious awesome show quality, yet meat quality bunnies. 
It sounds like for that kind of money they were running a mill, not a "humane" small business to teach their son about business and responsibility. 

I don;t know what the economy is like down in the States but this could have been a way for the family to make money on the side. And the reporters and the author of the article failed to supply the essential details either because of journalist restrictions or lack of knowledge but this article seems bogus to me. 
4 million dollars if they don't some up with 90'000 by May?!?!?!


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## Hyatt101

I feel a little weird posting here, because I don't really see what exactly they were doing wrong. Some pet stores are good, some are not. I don't think they were doing any of the bad things you hear about breeding, BUT it is a little fishy that they had enough bunnies for pet stores. However, I think it's a ridiculous amount of money to ask for, especially since they never were told exactly what law they were violating. I feel sorry for this family.


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## OakRidgeRabbits

I do agree with many of you that it's surprising that a family running such a large business would be unaware of the USDA regulations. However, that could happen. Meat breeding/production is not USDA regulated, according to the USDA spokesperson I spoke to over the phone. The reason this family was fined was because they violated a law concerning commercial pet sales.

Aside from violating a law over cash flow, it's unfair to assume the family was doing anything wrong by the rabbits without more knowledge of the situation. Caring for around 600 rabbits over the course of one year would not be uncommon in a meat operation. In fact, it would not be uncommon in a show situation either. If you have 50 does (which is considered a normal, small-medium size rabbitry) producing two litters per year, with approximately 6 babies in each litter, there's 600 rabbits right there, easily. That would be an average litter size for commercial breeds, and a rather low production rate. It is more common for show and breeding does to be bred about 3 times/year, which would lower the number of does necessary for production.

For meat or pet purposes, the kits were likely sold at 8 weeks old. Which means most of those rabbits were not actually being housed and cared for at the family home for an extended period of time.

So, no excessive inbreeding or constant pregnancy is necessary. That doesn't mean that this situation in particular was otherwise in compliance with USDA regulations for care. However, it's certainly within reason to say that this was a pretty typical production situation and that the rabbits were well cared for. Whether or not you agree with why they were breeding is another situation by itself. But this case isn't inherently abusive or neglectful, from the information we're provided with.


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## Hyatt101

OakRidgeRabbits said:


> I do agree with many of you that it's surprising that a family running such a large business would be unaware of the USDA regulations. However, that could happen. Meat breeding/production is not USDA regulated, according to the USDA spokesperson I spoke to over the phone. The reason this family was fined was because they violated a law concerning commercial pet sales.
> 
> Aside from violating a law over cash flow, it's unfair to assume the family was doing anything wrong by the rabbits without more knowledge of the situation. Caring for around 600 rabbits over the course of one year would not be uncommon in a meat operation. In fact, it would not be uncommon in a show situation either. If you have 50 does (which is considered a normal, small-medium size rabbitry) producing two litters per year, with approximately 6 babies in each litter, there's 600 rabbits right there, easily. That would be an average litter size for commercial breeds, and a rather low production rate. It is more common for show and breeding does to be bred about 3 times/year, which would lower the number of does necessary for production.
> 
> For meat or pet purposes, the kits were likely sold at 8 weeks old. Which means most of those rabbits were not actually being housed and cared for at the family home for an extended period of time.
> 
> So, no excessive inbreeding or constant pregnancy is necessary. That doesn't mean that this situation in particular was otherwise in compliance with USDA regulations for care. However, it's certainly within reason to say that this was a pretty typical production situation and that the rabbits were well cared for. Whether or not you agree with why they were breeding is another situation by itself. But this case isn't inherently abusive or neglectful, from the information we're provided with.




That's very well put!


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## BunBuns Human

Marrie said:


> Further information on the case:
> Between 2008 and 2009 they sold 619 rabbits, which earned them $4,600, with a profit of about $200."
> 619 rabbits, as both meat, pets.


 
$200 profit / 619 rabbits = $0.32 profit per rabbit

So for a few cents they were willing to abuse and kill a rabbit. Not only were they extremely poor "businessmen" they are poor excuses for humans.


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## Hyatt101

I don't think they were abusing and killing rabbits....


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## BunBuns Human

Hyatt101 said:


> I don't think they were abusing and killing rabbits....


Does the term "meat rabbit" have any meaning to you?

Do you think that those rabbits were given room to run, dig and frolic, to do what rabbits are meant to do or is it more likely that they were crammed into cages without outdoor access?


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## lauratunes12

There is just something about this story not adding up, and I can't figure out who or what to believe because of it. Somebody is leaving some information out somewhere.


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## Hyatt101

BunBuns Human said:


> Does the term "meat rabbit" have any meaning to you?
> 
> Do you think that those rabbits were given room to run, dig and frolic, to do what rabbits are meant to do or is it more likely that they were crammed into cages without outdoor access?



I know that most of us on here are against raising rabbits for meat, but it is something that is done. We don't know for sure that these rabbits were in "such horrible conditions". Yes, the cages were small, but they may have been getting exercise. 

I think it is extremely unfair to say that they are "poor excuses for humans".


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## BinkyBunny

Hyatt101 said:


> I know that most of us on here are against raising rabbits for meat, but it is something that is done. We don't know for sure that these rabbits were in "such horrible conditions". Yes, the cages were small, but they may have been getting exercise.
> 
> I think it is extremely unfair to say that they are "poor excuses for humans".



It is completely unfair to say that meat rabbits are automatically abused. I am aware of some extremely humane operations. Unless you are a vegan, I don't really feel you have room to talk here, as all meat comes from animals albeit different species. If you are a vegan, try not to judge other people for not believing the way you do.


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## Hyatt101

BinkyBunny said:


> It is completely unfair to say that meat rabbits are automatically abused. I am aware of some extremely humane operations. Unless you are a vegan, I don't really feel you have room to talk here, as all meat comes from animals albeit different species. If you are a vegan, try not to judge other people for not believing the way you do.



Oh no, I was trying to say that we SHOULD be respectful of people who raise meat rabbits, and that just because these were meat rabbits doesn't mean they were abused. Im not a vegan, i actually love meat. Sorry, that's what I meant. I just worded it wrong


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## BinkyBunny

Hyatt101 said:


> Oh no, I was trying to say that we SHOULD be respectful of people who raise meat rabbits, and that just because these were meat rabbits doesn't mean they were abused. Im not a vegan, i actually love meat. Sorry, that's what I meant. I just worded it wrong



I knew what you meant! I quoted the wrong person thinking it would grab both quotes! I was speaking to Bun Buns Human. I too love meat. Petting the mini pig down the street has seriously dampened my bacon eating :foreheadsmack:


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## Hyatt101

BinkyBunny said:


> I knew what you meant! I quoted the wrong person thinking it would grab both quotes! I was speaking to Bun Buns Human. I too love meat. Petting the mini pig down the street has seriously dampened my bacon eating :foreheadsmack:



That's fine  I thought you were talking to me!


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## BinkyBunny

Hyatt101 said:


> That's fine  I thought you were talking to me!




I was not talking to you then, but I am now! So :hugsquish:


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## Hyatt101

Hahaha! :hugsquish:


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## Ape337

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/f82/forum-decorum-copy-72472/


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## BunBuns Human

BinkyBunny said:


> Unless you are a vegan, I don't really feel you have room to talk here, as all meat comes from animals albeit different species.


That is nonsense as not all animals are created equal, as they say at Chik-Fil-A: eat mo' chicken. There is a reason that calling someone a birdbrain is an insult. 

Kill and eat a chimp or a dolphin and the Feds will put you in prison. Just a few miles from here a coupla' weeks ago there were multiple _felony_ arrests for killing horses for meat. Sell any article in Florida made with cat hair and you get to go to jail. Dog and cat owners here in the US simply would not permit the raising of dogs and cats for meat even though they are eaten in other cultures. Rabbits are intelligent, trainable and emotionally complex animals and deserve the same legal protections that dolphins, chimps, horses, dogs and cats have. I have never had a dog that was as smart and as trainable as my buns.


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## kkiddle

I would rather have the thousands of rabbits being kept in horrible conditions, or being set free to experience the tortures of the wilderness, be culled HUMANELY for meat than to have to experience these things. 

But, this is one of those instances where we are going to have to agree to disagree, as the forum decorum policy states. We all have our opinions, and while I don't agree with breeding for meat, I'm certainly not going to judge anybody who does so. It appalls me, but there are things worse than death, as mentioned above, and I don't know anybody's given situation enough to judge them. 

At any rate, I also think there is something else going on here. But we'll never know because of the awesome journalism being put into action here! (Rule #1 of journalism is to be unbiased and stick with the facts, this makes me laugh!)

I was wondering about licenses and such as well, but of course the article states that they have broken no laws. I also agree that the amount being fined is a little excessive, but maybe they're having a problem with backyard breeders in the area and need to make a statement? Either way, it's a bit much.


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## Hyatt101

kkiddle said:


> I would rather have the thousands of rabbits being kept in horrible conditions, or being set free to experience the tortures of the wilderness, be culled HUMANELY for meat than to have to experience these things.
> 
> But, this is one of those instances where we are going to have to agree to disagree, as the forum decorum policy states. We all have our opinions, and while I don't agree with breeding for meat, I'm certainly not going to judge anybody who does so. It appalls me, but there are things worse than death, as mentioned above, and I don't know anybody's given situation enough to judge them.
> 
> At any rate, I also think there is something else going on here. But we'll never know because of the awesome journalism being put into action here! (Rule #1 of journalism is to be unbiased and stick with the facts, this makes me laugh!)
> 
> I was wondering about licenses and such as well, but of course the article states that they have broken no laws. I also agree that the amount being fined is a little excessive, but maybe they're having a problem with backyard breeders in the area and need to make a statement? Either way, it's a bit much.




So, they didn't have a license, right? But were they required to, I can't remember.... This story has gotten confusing! Are they going to pay the fine? ( I also think its too much to ask them to pay)


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## Kipcha

None of the breeders in our area are required to have a liscense or register their animals in any way, unless of course if they are an ARBA member or something, but that is optional. There is no way that rabbit breeders are tracked unless there are complaints from neighbours/clients about animal conditions.


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## BinkyBunny

BunBuns Human said:


> That is nonsense as not all animals are created equal, as they say at Chik-Fil-A: eat mo' chicken. There is a reason that calling someone a birdbrain is an insult.
> 
> Kill and eat a chimp or a dolphin and the Feds will put you in prison. Just a few miles from here a coupla' weeks ago there were multiple _felony_ arrests for killing horses for meat. Sell any article in Florida made with cat hair and you get to go to jail. Dog and cat owners here in the US simply would not permit the raising of dogs and cats for meat even though they are eaten in other cultures. Rabbits are intelligent, trainable and emotionally complex animals and deserve the same legal protections that dolphins, chimps, horses, dogs and cats have. I have never had a dog that was as smart and as trainable as my buns.



Birds can be wildly intelligent. I had an african grey that was much like a toddler. He has made the remark 'bird brain' a compliment. Google 'Alex and Irene.'


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## BunBuns Human

BinkyBunny said:


> Birds can be wildly intelligent. I had an african grey that was much like a toddler. He has made the remark 'bird brain' a compliment. Google 'Alex and Irene.'


 
Sure parrots, like corvids, can be quite smart, unlike chickens and turkeys; but then millions of parrots or corvids are not raised and killed each year for meat as are rabbits. Also a number of parrots have legal protections that rabbits do not.

And, like rabbits, parrots are highly social animals and can become quite demented, pulling out all of their feathers and becoming biters, without adequate social interactions. I wouldn't recommend raising parrots for meat either.


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## mochajoe

As many have stated before me, we don't know all the facts...so it is very difficult to make a fair call either way...does it sound a little crazy no matter how you look at it or what possible scenarios you create YES....most definitely YES!!!! My very wise mommy, God rest her soul, always said in "he said she said" .... "The truth is somewhere in the middle" I will say, that I think that USDA, makes some decisions and pass some laws without completely thinking through all the ramifications of their actions, including a recent law they passed that is going to SIGNIFICANTLY impact horse owners, like me, and horse people who cross state lines to trail ride and show. My mother's family runs a 5th generation dairy farm in Ohio, so I am certainly NOT saying the USDA is all bad....they are NOT. Again, we don't know all the facts and we probably never will!


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## Deetzy

BinkyBunny said:


> It is completely unfair to say that meat rabbits are automatically abused. I am aware of some extremely humane operations. Unless you are a vegan, I don't really feel you have room to talk here, as all meat comes from animals albeit different species. If you are a vegan, try not to judge other people for not believing the way you do.



Thank you for saying this Binky!  I know I'm coming in late on this thread, but I couldn't resist saying something. Honestly I was pretty offended by that comment that was made earlier. I am not one for eating rabbits myself, personally I liken it to eating a dog or a cat. But my father is from a country where eating rabbits is fairly normal. In fact, over there they would consider us the weird ones for keeping them as pets. My cousin raises a few meat rabbits, and though I disagree with it I certainly wouldn't consider then evil or inhumane. They just eat some weird things. Think of the matter from another perspective, followers of Hinduism think it's wrong to eat beef. I myself don't eat it, but lots of people eat it without thinking anything of it. I've never once heard any of my Hindu friends call my beef-eating friends evil. They just agree to disagree and still show some respect for one another. Now there's some food for thought! (No pun intended!)


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## Hyatt101

Deetzy said:


> Thank you for saying this Binky!  I know I'm coming in late on this thread, but I couldn't resist saying something. Honestly I was pretty offended by that comment that was made earlier. I am not one for eating rabbits myself, personally I liken it to eating a dog or a cat. But my father is from a country where eating rabbits is fairly normal. In fact, over there they would consider us the weird ones for keeping them as pets. My cousin raises a few meat rabbits, and though I disagree with it I certainly wouldn't consider then evil or inhumane. They just eat some weird things. Think of the matter from another perspective, followers of Hinduism think it's wrong to eat beef. I myself don't eat it, but lots of people eat it without thinking anything of it. I've never once heard any of my Hindu friends call my beef-eating friends evil. They just agree to disagree and still show some respect for one another. Now there's some food for thought! (No pun intended!)






This is a good point, thinking about it from another perspective. We just need to accept each others opinions


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## missyscove

I am going to close this thread until it can be further reviewed as the discussion seems to have strayed from what sort of licensing this family may have needed and whether they broke any laws (which may pertain to some of our own members) to a debate on the consumption of rabbits as food animals which is not the purpose of this forum.


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