# Bunny newbie....Flemish Giant.....occasional sneezing and wet nose - should we worry?



## doodlebugger (Jun 21, 2011)

I read somewhere on these forums that you should never hear a rabbit's breath, so this gave me a little more concern since tonight when the bun was smelling me I could hear a sort of snorty kind of sound. Since we got him, he has seemed like his ears are almost always warm. He's eating, using the bathroom, and drinking normally. He lives in an outside hutch with plenty of fresh timothy hay and we are using the feed that the breeder gave us. The breeder had him with several other kits from different mothers. He was the last of his fawn siblings. When we brought him home, we noticed he sneezed occasionally. Since we are newbies, I will run down what I have in his environment, could you tell us if this could be an allergy or if we should be concerned that he has the start of a URI? The hutch was made for us - it's huge! He has a cedar plank floor, and the rest is made with pine. He has a sleeping box which is made with pine. We put straw inside his sleeping box. We have a Suntop roof. We use blue tarp material to cover the sides when we know there is going to be a storm or in the morning to help shade from the sun (although we usually only cover one or two of the sides). We did bring him inside this morning because it was extremely hot and humid and we were worried about him overheating. He played with my daughter on the kitchen floor, and then we put him in his transport cage for about an hour before moving him back outdoors (a shower was moving through and it was cooling off). I didn't notice the snorty sound and wet nose until after the next storm had come through and we were filling his feed bowl. So, is there anything we need to change, and should we be worried? :? 

We fell in love with him and would be so sad if something happened to him......but we also can't afford an expensive vet visit either (what does it normally cost to get an exam?).....


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## LuellaJean (Jun 22, 2011)

When I took my bunny to the vet (here in Texas) an exam was $45 I think. It can be hard to find vets that will see a rabbit, so you might want to call around and find someone close to your home that does. I had to drive 30 minutes to see a rabbit vet, and I live in a big city with hundreds of vets. I've also heard people say that when a bunny is hot you can give them a frozen 2 liter bottle of water to lay up against to cool themselves off. Heat stroke is all too common in buns and from what I understand they do not recover easily or frequently from heat stroke. I'm not sure about the runny nose or sneezing, I have heard my boys sneeze a few times in the 3 months I have had them, and they always have moist noses, but not runny noses. Anyone else have a thought on that? I wish I could be more helpful, but I'm rather new to the rabbit life myself. Good luck and congrats! We'd love to see pictures!


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## doodlebugger (Jun 22, 2011)

Thanks for the response! I forgot to tell you that our little Phoenix is only 11 weeks old and weighs about 8lbs. Here are two pics. 






The pic above is Phoenix laying on the ice packs and a gatorade bottle with frozen water inside (but you can't see that bottle because he is laying next to it! :biggrin: ) . For some reason, he stopped going inside his sleeping box when we put straw in there. I am having my daughter take out the straw tomorrow to see if it will make a difference. I don't think he likes it. :?

The pic below is the hutch made by my step-dad. We changed some of the accessories because Phoenix didn't like the cheap bowls and water bottle. He preferred a water bowl instead and for some reason he likes to put his paws in the food bowl while he eats, so he ends up spilling it. We got a crock that attaches to the wire. Also, we found that the wire was far too big (not for Phoenix, but for possible predators and pests), so we went over top of this wire with much smaller mess wire.


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## tonyshuman (Jun 22, 2011)

I too would be more concerned about heat stroke. It might be good to put a fan on there so she can have a breeze, and do the frozen water bottle thing. Any temp above 80 is high for a rabbit. He probably stopped going in the sleeping box with the straw because bunnies associate straw with bathroom stuff--they like to eat hay/straw while they poo. Most people fill their bunnies' litterboxes with hay. He probably stopped sleeping in the house because the hay made him think it was the bathroom.

Is the snot colored at all?


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## tonyshuman (Jun 22, 2011)

Another possibility is that the wood is irritating his nose. Pine and cedar give off aromatic oils that make them smell good, but they can cause respiratory problems in bunnies.


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## doodlebugger (Jun 22, 2011)

Thanks. We took out the sleeping box because it does smell like pine, removed the straw from that area and put just a small amount in the corner where he is using the bathroom. We noticed today he is sneezing more often and he has a little more clear runny discharge on his nose (enough that when my daughter put her finger to his nose it was wet). His ears still feel hot and that is what worries me now - could this be a fever he is fighting? He is still eating, drinking, and using the bathroom. He is jumping around like normal too, greeting us, and interacting with us like normal. We have a fan on him now, and two frozen bottles in the cage. He has fresh water, pellets, and timothy hay which we change daily. I am surprised at just how much mixed information is out there regarding bunnies....one person says use a fan, but I read on another site not to use a fan. Some say use cedar, others say don't. The breeder didn't give me any indication what he kept him in, or whether he had a litter box, etc. It's very frustrating! Everything was "gifted" to my daughter and we are struggling to make it all work with a very (almost non-existent) budget in the next week and a half. Just worried about our little Phoenix...


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## mistyjr (Jun 22, 2011)

It's not a good thing when they are sneezing or showing any snot.. But I hear that a lot of breeders their rabbits have allergies! And I read and talked to a few people and they said Cedar isnt good for rabbits, We just use pine. But also if any dust in feed, hay, can make the rabbit sneeze, You can take him to the vets and get hes nose swabbed. But find a good rabbit vet!


I just had to put down a few rabbits that were sneezing, They had the snuffles!


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## doodlebugger (Jun 22, 2011)

By "put down" do you mean put to sleep?  I hope not!!! We just got the poor thing and I thought at first it could be allergies, but even after taking out the pine sleeping box, the extra straw, and everything, he still sneezed when he got up from a nap! I can't afford to take out the cedar planks on the floor, but I have heard that the problem with cedar has to do with the urine....but I have seen rabbit hutches and cages built with cedar, so it makes no sense! I know of two good rabbit vets in the area, but I can't afford to take him for at least another week and a half.  The snuffles is exactly what I am worried about.....what are the signs and if he does have it, would he still be active and moving around, eating, etc?


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## GizmoTheMiniRex (Jun 22, 2011)

sounds to me like it could be acase of the snuffles. its like a cold that humans get only in rabbits. my mini rex had it one time and her eyes were a little goopy, she was sneezing, and her nose was more wet and runny than usual. i called the vet and took her in. they gave her antibiotics and it was cleared up in about a week. i suggest to do some research on snuffles and see if your bun has it. it is usually easy to treat if you catch it soon enough although it becomes worse over time. if you get it treated it shouldnt cause any permenant damage


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## doodlebugger (Jun 22, 2011)

So, I am a bit freaked out now, so I found a vet who will only charge $39 for the visit, and I am taking poor Phoenix to get him checked. I only had $90 for grocery money, so I hope that it doesn't cost me much more than $50 or we will be eating Ramen noodles for the next two weeks.  The things we do for our kids and animals! anic:


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## mistyjr (Jun 22, 2011)

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=18+1803&aid=2686

You can treat it but you can not cure it, I hope for the best, But the vet is just going to get a nasal swab and the test takes a couple days to come back.


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## Must_Love_Pets (Jun 22, 2011)

Beautiful Flemmie and beautiful hutch. I hope all works out well and he is free of the snuffles. 

ray:

Wondering why anyone would put a bunny down for the snuffles?????? What am I missing?


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## mistyjr (Jun 22, 2011)

Because its spreads to your other rabbits, Exspieally when you are showing. You can treat it but never cures it.


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## Must_Love_Pets (Jun 22, 2011)

Oh got it! I have never had a bunnie with the snuffles thank goodness. 

I sure hope this is not the case. 

So since Pheonix is the only bunny would she have to put him down if he does have the snuffles or can she just treat him for the rest of his life? If so what does that entail?


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jun 22, 2011)

Phoenix sounds okay to me.  Sometimes during stressful situations, rabbits will sneeze or get a damp nose and it's just due to stress. Or like you said, sometimes an allergy.

It is most likely not snuffles, which is a very violent illness. The rabbits will be blowing colored snot and sneezing often. You will often notice matted fur on the inside of the front legs where they wipe their nose off. They sometimes have runny eyes or chest congestion. It is a very noticeable illness, not just an occasional sneeze here and there.

I wouldn't stress out about Phoenix's symptoms and rush him to a vet, especially when your family is already on such a tight budget. Many vets are not knowledgeable about rabbits either, so unless you are able to afford and travel to a rabbit savvy vet, the visit will probably not give you much more insight than the rabbit-experienced people here.


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## doodlebugger (Jun 22, 2011)

I found a rabbit vet that was recommended on a website I found here - had to drive 40 miles to get there. I would highly recommend her - she seems very knowledgeable and she said she has worked with rabbit rescue. The only thing I didn't like was that she pushes spay/neuter and she feels strongly about keeping buns in the house versus the outside hutch we have. She says they will stay healthier in the house. We'll probably be eating Ramen noodles the next ten days, but I am thankful for taking him to the vet!!! He has a URI and they said he has coccidia. They gave us Baytril and Albon. It cost me $86, and they wanted me to consider some eye drops, but I couldn't afford it.  Our poor bun! 

We were supposed to be showing him at the local fair on Friday, but I guess that is out of the question now. *sigh* It's been a long day!!! Thank you for all the help. Anything I should watch for while giving these meds to him??? Will it be hard to put the syringe and get meds in his mouth?

P.S. I'm just joking about the Ramen noodles, but it was definitely a strain on my already tight budget. But, I did fall in love with that bun when he came home, so I couldn't let him suffer!!!


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## plasticbunny (Jun 22, 2011)

YAY!!!

I'm sure you expained that you're showing him, and he needs to stay intact? Don't be worried, from what I understand, testicular cancer isn't very common in buns. If Pheonix was a female, I'd agree with the vet. If he gets aggressive and you're no longer showing it may be an option to consider.

As for housing, I'm a fan of housing inside but your setup seems great! He has space, and a good roof/tarp so he should be well protected from the elements. As long as he's staying cool in the heat and is getting lots of attention (at least an hour a day), he should be fine outside. But if you notice the temperature get too hot or too cold, it may be wise to bring him in or build him a new bunny mansion with a fan setup :biggrin:. Oh, spoiled bunnies!


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## LuellaJean (Jun 22, 2011)

To your question about the warm ears- my 2 boys always seem to have warm ears, as if their ears are warmer than the rest of their bodies. They've always been that way. I assume warm ears are normal?


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## doodlebugger (Jun 22, 2011)

The meds were easy to administer tonight. Whew! Feeling like I can relax a little now. The vet told me that we can bring him inside when it's hot, or we can provide him with a fan and frozen water bottles (we use gatorade bottles because they are bigger and we can fit more in our freezers). As for attention, let's just say that he will get far more than an hour a day!!! I thought it was going to be my daughter's project, but I am finding I am in love with the bun now too! As for the warm ears, our bun's ears were not just warm, but sometimes excessively hot over the past few days. The vet said that this could indicate overheating or a fever. Their ears help them regulate their body temperature. We have been using the frozen water filled bottles and a fan during the day, and only the bottles at night when the temp is still above 70 which seems to be helping and now we are giving meds. 

This forum has brought a great deal of comfort to this newbie!!! Thanks so much!!!


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## GorbyJobRabbits (Jun 23, 2011)

*GizmoTheMiniRex wrote: *


> sounds to me like it could be acase of the snuffles. its like a cold that humans get only in rabbits. my mini rex had it one time and her eyes were a little goopy, she was sneezing, and her nose was more wet and runny than usual. i called the vet and took her in. they gave her antibiotics and it was cleared up in about a week. i suggest to do some research on snuffles and see if your bun has it. it is usually easy to treat if you catch it soon enough although it becomes worse over time. if you get it treated it shouldnt cause any permenant damage



IF its snuffles it's not curable. So please read up on snuffles yourself.


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## doodlebugger (Jun 23, 2011)

So, is a URI the same thing as snuffles? Our bun had a little bit of snorty sound again today, with a little more crusty nose, but it still looks clear. A little less active today, but still eating, drinking, and responding to us like normal. Worried about our bun....I hope it's not the snuffles, because my daughter will be devastated! The vet didn't seem concerned when she saw him yesterday....but now I am freaked out again.....


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## mistyjr (Jun 23, 2011)

He's just a pet. Do what the vet says,and dont put him around other rabbits in case!


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## plasticbunny (Jun 24, 2011)

*mistyjr wrote: *


> He's just a pet. Do what the vet says,and dont put him around other rabbits in case!


Um... What does "he's just a pet" mean?


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## doodlebugger (Jun 24, 2011)

I don't have any other rabbits. This is the only one we have. It was a gift from her grandmother who is moving away to another state. She wanted my daughter to have an FFA project (they call them SAE's) that she could put time into and now she has fallen in love with the bun. My daughter sees animals as part of her family. She has a very tender heart, and as her mother, I hurt when she hurts. I am doing everything the vet said to do. I am just worried since we are completely new to bunnies - we do not know what is normal and what is not normal. I have read all the info about snuffles, URI's, and other issues. 

What I want to know is this - the vet said to wait 7 days to see if the bun is getting better or worse. Has anyone ever had a bun get worse while on the meds and then improve? Also, no one has answered the question - are snuffles and URI's the same thing? From what I am reading, they are not. The vet seemed very knowledgeable and she also does rabbit rescue, so I can't imagine she would let us go home without knowing that is what it is.....


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## mistyjr (Jun 24, 2011)

*plasticbunny wrote: *


> *mistyjr wrote: *
> 
> 
> > He's just a pet. Do what the vet says,and dont put him around other rabbits in case!
> ...



I ment to say that hes a pet bunny. She said above (I think) hes the only bunny they have!



I was trying to find you an link that I was reading on for my rabbits, Since I am going threw the same thing right now... And i couldnt find it. It was for pet rabbits vs. show rabbits, But it can be transmitted to other rabbits, But hes the only one that you guys have! Just follow what the vet says!


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## doodlebugger (Jun 24, 2011)

Well we do intend on showing him, but we can't because he is sick. He is not snorty sounding today, but very relaxed. It's a nice 65 degrees today, with no direct sun, so hopefully he will be able to rest well. He was laying so funny out there, that I got scared for a minute, but apparently it was like something called the dead bunny flop...he was just really comfortable and snoozing away! Still eating, drinking, interacting, and going to the bathroom normally.


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## Must_Love_Pets (Jun 24, 2011)

Sounds good!!!

I think he will be just fine. 

I am inlove with Pheonix and his hutch.


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## mistyjr (Jun 25, 2011)

He could also have allergies to something, It's hard to say, But since you seen the vet!
But glad hes doing better!


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## doodlebugger (Jun 27, 2011)

Phoenix is still occasionally sneezing, and the last two days he seemed a little less active. He has been doing this thing while he is resting that kind of worries me - he will plop down and then go into this dead stare (which makes me think he must be sleeping) and then he almost seems like he has the hiccups until I wake him up and move him. Then he has snorted one or two times today. His bowels seem fine, but I'm more worried about the URI stuff - no additional discharge, but still a wet nose. His eyes look so much better though! Tomorrow will be day seven on meds....should I call the vet to see if they are concerned?


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## CCWelch (Jun 28, 2011)

Is Phoenix snotty enough that he has crusty stuff inside on his front paws? Snuffles and URI's are 2 different things, on curable one not. I had a Flemish that would do the same sneezing from time to time then have the runny nose, testing showed it was not snuffles. She had an allergy and we never figured out what she was allergic to.
I feel that there is a problem with the cedar planking, many bunnies have allergies to cedar, that is why it is suggested that you not use cedar shavings with rabbits.


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## doodlebugger (Jun 28, 2011)

There is no crust...just clear discharge and it's very minor (not on his fur or anything). I am leaning towards an allergy as well - probably to the cedar. I read somewhere with the cedar flooring when they urinate and the heat/humidity can cause issues. We removed just about everything from the hutch that we could....I just can't afford to change out the flooring until next week. What kind of flooring should I put in? I know it has to be untreated and unpainted. *sigh* Who would have known a rabbit could be so complicated???


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## mistyjr (Jun 28, 2011)

Well, I had a rabbit just sneezing and snotted just eating her feed. I was told by bad breeders that she had the snuffles and Put her down. She had no crusty face or and her snot was clear. She just sneezed and sneezed at eating food and water. Plus the cages arent in a good air ventilation where they are. But after talking with my aunt that raises 100+ rabbits and talking with a few more good breeders. They told me it sounded like allergies. And my aunt explained to me on Saturday what snuffles is since when her rabbits are sick she takes them to the vets. So she knows. And said that snuffles is crusty around nose, eyes, ect... But I am sorry if I hurt your feelings. I just found out about this on Saturday! :feelbetter::hug:


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## GorbyJobRabbits (Jun 28, 2011)

ugg... just because you have not had a culture done, do NOT show him. DO NOT!!!

because you can't be positive what it is without a culture, IF it is something like sniffles it can be passed on to other rabbits. 

That means if you get her something else to show, I would not keep him. 

You can't be 100% without a culture that it isn't snuffles. I had to go through it, and had bought rabbits off someone who were sick. I lost half my herd. If I see a sick rabbit at a show, ugg, it just makes my skin crawl. PLEASE refrain from showing that rabbit.


and you don't get crust around the eyes. It's a snotty face. Just like a child with a cold. It's a whitish discharge at the nose. usually they try to whip their face and its on the insides of the front legs. There is sneezing and as it gets worse you can hear it rumbling in the lungs.

and if you're showing rabbits, its mean, its cruel, and it sucks, but you're not bettering the breed by keeping sick rabbits and medicating.


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## mistyjr (Jun 28, 2011)

But when a judge that's been doing rabbits for many of years and seen any kind of Illness they know what to look for. I have emails from this judge stated they dont have the Illness! So I trust the judge. But I am not plan on showing him until he get's taken to the vets first!


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## doodlebugger (Jun 28, 2011)

Nope, not showing him because we are still new at this and I wouldn't want anyone else's bunny to get sick....what I meant by my previous post is that we intend on showing him **eventually**. The vet we went to did not do a culture - she said after the exam that she did not believe it was anything but a URI. She is an experienced and recommended bunny vet and has even done bunny rescue. He has never had anything more than a bit of a clear runny nose, but she could hear congestion in his lungs. He also has one eye that seems to have some drainage and I am supposed to call her back to get eye drops or a change in antibiotics if it doesn't clear up. He also has some weird scratches in his ear below his tattoo. If I can get him to sit still, I could show you his nose, but he is not a willing participant in having his pics taken right now.  What do you think? Does it look okay to you?


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## plasticbunny (Jun 28, 2011)

*CCWelch wrote: *


> I feel that there is a problem with the cedar planking, many bunnies have allergies to cedar, that is why it is suggested that you not use cedar shavings with rabbits.



Actually, it's recommended that cedar shaving not be used due to the oils they contain. These oils are called phenols, and can cause severe liver complications over time.

Just wanted to clarify, in case anyone uses cedar and their bunnies don't show any allergic reaction, that does not mean it is safe.


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## GorbyJobRabbits (Jun 28, 2011)

if she herd something in his lungs, I wouldn't go with she doesnt believe its snuffles. 

I dunno... like I said I just lost over half my rabbits, sooo I'm extremely anal about their well being.


I'm not sure about the scratch in the ear... he could have done that accidentily by itching himself. them big ol' ears are foot traps lol


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## plasticbunny (Jun 28, 2011)

The scratch looks OK to me. I'd check out this link in regards to the nose and eyes, and respiratory congestion:

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Respiratory/respira_main.htm

Sounds like maybe overexposure to ammonia? This is more common in summer months, and it may be wise to move him into the air conditioning for a short period of time to see if that helps.


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## mistyjr (Jun 28, 2011)

But I have heard from people and read online that Cedar can be very harmful to rabbits, So I dont know.
But maybe you can replace the floor and put some strong fencing on the floor that you can get at your local farm store. And you can get a tile to put on the floor so he can rest on it!


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## Djakarta (Jun 28, 2011)

I found an article that describes the respiratory toxicity of Cedar ( and pine):

http://www.trifl.org/cedar.shtml

Here is a quote from the article:

"The primary irritant in cedar is plicatic acid "

" Exposure to plicatic acid can cause or exacerbate asthma, rhinitis or conjunctivitis in humans and in animals, and the damage can be progressive. "

So it sounds like the runny nose (symptom of rhinitis) and the runny eye ( symptom of conjunctivitis) could both be caused by exposure to cedar.

Do you know anyone who has a puppy pen/ aka exercise pen/ aka X-pen that you could borrow? Could you possibly set up the x pen inside the house until you can have the hutch modified ? ( an x pen outdoors wouldn't be safe unless supervised- not possible all night).

A large wire dog crate would work also, if you could borrow one. ( a plastic crate wouldn't have adequate ventilation.)


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## doodlebugger (Jun 29, 2011)

When hubby gets paid on Friday, I am going to pick up some of those NIC type cubes and try to rig something up in the house for him temporarily. The breeder we purchased him from was not litter training, so we are going to try that, but we are concerned with spraying. We are also going to remove the cedar floor and replace it. Hubby is not too happy about us wanting to move the bun inside, but I honestly think he will cost us less in the long run (as far as the vet is concerned) than if we leave him outside. 
The whole cedar thing is frustrating because they actually sell cedar hutches at pet stores....I had no idea that the cedar floor would have the same effects as the cedar shavings, but I am willing to try anything to keep this bun healthy!


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## mistyjr (Jun 29, 2011)

I hope for the best!


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## doodlebugger (Jul 1, 2011)

Will it never end? I took the bun back today, another $95 spent, and the good news is that his lungs and belly sound like normal again. His eyes were normal, and there was no concern. The bad news is that they were concerned about his ears, so they did a swab and diagnosed him with a bacterial and yeast otitis externa, and gave us antibiotic ear drops. That poor bun! That's why he has been scratching! So, hopefully this is the last visit and our bun is okay from now on!!!


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## mistyjr (Jul 1, 2011)

Wow~ Poor baby, Well I hope for the best...


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