# Breeding (Funnily enough)



## Flashy (Feb 10, 2009)

Ok, before I start, let me say these things

1, I love this area of the forum. It's normally the first I visit, and I have directed a good few people to RO BECAUSE of how good your breeding forum is.

2, Anyone who knows me knows that I have bred, and also probably knows I have made mistakes due to lack of knowledge, which is one of the reasons why I so firmly promote a forum such as this, with people with such excellent knowledge on.

3, I have absolutely nothing against resonsible breeding and breeders. In fact, I have a great deal of respect for them when they do it so very well, people like Polly, Cathy, Jenson (naming those, because I know them best), but I have also seen other breeders on here say something and have great respect for what they say and their knowledge.

Ok? We got that straight? Good :biggrin2:

I'm wondering, if there is a point, on here, where it may become the case that breeding should be discouraged. Note, not breeding in general, but a specific situation. An example being if you knew the welfare of some bunnies would be at risk if a person did decide to go ahead and breed. Now, don't get me wrong, I believe in education, education and education some more, and if the people listen to it, they can become great, but what happens when a person refuses to listen time and time again, putting their buns at risk time and time again?

I'm also wondering whether, because of the anti breeder mentality that some people on this forum talk about, there should be a breeder specific forum (sub-forum?), where the mods decide which members are allowed in? That would mean that there would be no discrimmination against breeding, and no judgemental views on whether breeding is right or wrong. It might go against the forums open ethos, but maybe it might help those who breed/want to breed, but won't post (for whatever reason), to post. 

People are encouraged to really think and question their reasons/motifs/ability about rehoming a bun, or taking on another bun, so I'm also sort of wondering whether it's ok to get people to question themselves if they want to breed? There seem to be some cases where it is not ok, yet some cases where it is. Could someone please clarify for me?

I guess what I'm getting at is that I really like this forum, and I wouldn't want to see it go under or become a hostile place, or even prevent people from posting when they want/need to, and I'm trying to find a way to clarify in my mind, what is and isn't acceptable. I have read that other thread, but I'm trying to get it more straight in my own mind.


----------



## irishbunny (Feb 10, 2009)

Ya I agree with you, I think sometimes people should be told if they are doing something wrong, that endangers the welfare of the rabbits, and I don't see that as being against breeding.


----------



## Flashy (Feb 10, 2009)

I didn't state an opinion, lol, (other than the potential use of a private board), I was very carefully avoiding my opinion and trying to work out what the mods and other responsible breeders see as acceptable and not acceptable on here.

I'd also like to say that i'm not trying to cause problems, AT ALL, I just want clarity, that's all. And I obviously made a suggestion too.


----------



## NZminilops (Feb 10, 2009)

I actually like that idea, of a private forum, but also new members who come on with a breeding qustion might get confused as to where they are meant to post (if the breeding one is hidden).

I don't really agree with really young people who don't have their own source of income, breeding - or those with very unsupportive parents. But if someone is an adult, can afford to take care of the buns, and learns what's right and wrong, then I don't think it's anyone elses business what they do with their animals.

If I decided I wanted to become a registered breeder with the rabbit council of NZ, and people here had an issue with it, I just wouldn't come here any longer. While I think this is the BEST animal forum I have ever come across, it is only a website, one of billions, and if the people here weren't suuportive then I would go find another one where they were.


----------



## irishbunny (Feb 10, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> I didn't state an opinion, lol, (other than the potential use of a private board), I was very carefully avoiding my opinion and trying to work out what the mods and other responsible breeders see as acceptable and not acceptable on here.
> 
> I'd also like to say that i'm not trying to cause problems, AT ALL, I just want clarity, that's all. And I obviously made a suggestion too.


I ment I agree about having another forum for serious, decent breeders. The other thing was just my own opinion


----------



## Erins Rabbits (Feb 10, 2009)

Personally, I don't think there needs to be a private forum. Separation is very rarely a good thing, right? There are already GREAT forums out there for only breeders (*cough*RH*cough*). Making it private may only discourage the people who need the most guidance.


----------



## Epic_win (Feb 10, 2009)

I agree with you.

I'm not anti-breeding, but to not say anything when most people feel bunnies are being put in a bad situation just to stay "polite" is almost pointless.

This forum is about the welfare of bunnies, not the need to pretend to support iresponsible breeding.



Education, education, and education some more should occur before any breeding.



I don't believe their needs to be a separation because it is in a separate part of the forum. Like, I said before, I am NOT anti-breeding. But I hate seeing it done irresponsibly.

I'm assuming I'll be yelled at for this. lol


----------



## S_Toast (Feb 10, 2009)

On a personal note...

I was soooo happy to find RO because when I found out Oaks could be pregnant tonz of people jumped right in to help me out. It was nice as a newbe to be able to find the breeding forum and post in it.

I would have never bred Oaks but because someone else was irresponsible I need the help from those of you who do breed. However, I do agree that breeding just to have babies around or just because you don't want to seperate your rabbits is irresponsible. And I feel that people should be told this in a kind and gentle way so they will take a second look at why they are breeding. I have noticed that some threads get a bit snippy when it comes to breeding. I was nervous at first to post about Oaks being possibly pregnant because I didn't want to be "in trouble". But you were all very understanding and I thank you all so much for that.

I guess what I am trying to say is a private forum wouldn't give people like me the help they need. But people DO need to be told if they are making a poor choice. Let's just break the news gently at first


----------



## Jenson (Feb 10, 2009)

Personally, I think the worst thing about this section of the forum is the people who come to ask for advice and don't listen, as you say, putting the welfare of rabbits at risk. We can tell people what we think and suggest that they don't breed, but we all know there will be those that completely ignore all the good advice and do it anyway. I wish we didn't have to see that happen here, but I think it always will and if we can't prevent bad breedings at least we can be here to help as much as possible. I can't think of anything we can do to stop this from happening without pushing people away from asking for help in future (which I think already happens).

I would love it if more people would question themselves before breeding. Maybe we could have a pinned thread in the rabbitry, something along the lines of "Are you ready to breed?" with the questions that people need to ask themselves before going ahead?

As for the anti breeder views, we have a topic pinned at the top of the forum asking people:

*"If you are not a breeder, you don't support breeding and you have nothing of note to contribute to a thread beyond expressing an opinion on breeding, PLEASE don't post."*

...now if only more people would read that first!:rollseyes 

I don't think it would be a viable option to have a private breeding forum, I don't know how we would fairly decide who could and couldn't view it and I'm sure that would cause problems. I also do like the fact that everyone can come and view the breeding threads, it's nice that non breeders can come here and learn too. 

Those are basically the rabbitry's two biggest problems there, which unfortunatly go hand in hand. Without the irresponsible breeders, we wouldn't have as much of a problem with hostile posts. People just get so frustrated with seeing the same thing happen over and over where people go against advice and breed carelessly.

Some great points raised there Tracy, I hope we can all come up with some ideas to make the rabbitry better and help educate people more. 

Does anyone else have any suggestions for how to make the rabbity a better place?


----------



## clevername (Feb 10, 2009)

*Jenson wrote: *


> I would love it if more people would question themselves before breeding. Maybe we could have a pinned thread in the rabbitry, something along the lines of "Are you ready to breed?" with the questions that people need to ask themselves before going ahead?


I like this idea.


----------



## naturestee (Feb 10, 2009)

I'm with Toast. I don't know what I would do without easy access to the breeding forum here. I've relied on the experienced breeders to help me raise babies born at the shelter and to raise an orphan baby. I'm sure as a mod I'd have no problem getting into a restricted forum when I need to, but what about my husband who is not a mod? Not to mention people like Toast and others who have accidental litters or adopted rabbits that may be pregnant, or are like me and may foster litters for shelters/rescues from time to time. This is actually one of the reasons I like to send people here, because us rescue types that are used to spayed buns can get help from people that actually know how to raise babies properly.

As for certain situations where people really shouldn't be breeding for the health of the rabbit, I try to be honest and lay it out straight. And then ask someone who knows more than me to make sure I'm not saying something wrong. I do discourage irresponsible breeding too, namely breeding for the sake of breeding without concern for type/temperament/health and no good plan for where the babies will go. That's where a lot of my shelter rabbits come from, not from show breeders with quality purebred animals that are usually bought by other show people.


----------



## TinysMom (Feb 10, 2009)

Tracy, 

This is an excellent post and you bring up some interesting things. I'm really torn on how to answer this - do I try to be tactful like a mod should be - or do I say what I really WANT to say but can't. :nerves1

Years ago I loved being a moderator for the rabbitry area - we had some good discussions on breeding and I learned a lot. I really grew as a breeder and I can't put my finger on exactly how or why I grew so much - but I did.

Now - sometimes I read the posts in this area and I want to go like this...continually...
:banghead. Many times I have to walk away from the monitor and not post immediately because I get so darn frustrated.

So in many ways - I would really like to see us have a private subforum for breeding. However - my reasons for wanting this is that there are a number of people who have never had a litter who feel like they should pipe in on threads here in this forum - because they know person X or person Y and therefore they feel like they have a say in things. I'd like to have a private forum to keep those people out.

HOWEVER - there are also some very knowledgeable people on here who have never bred or had a litter (on purpose) - that I would hate to have us lose out on. For instance - I think it is NZMiniLops that has done a lot of reading on genetics and is fascinated by the colors, etc. I love to read her posts sometimes. I would hate to miss out on her posts. There are others who didn't plan to have babies - like Naturestee who fostered kits and so she has knowledge that can help others. If we let only breeders in - she wouldn't be part of it.

Much of my frustration comes from the reactions we have to the posts. Let me see if I can be a bit more specific.

Some of our posts come after the deed is done. The post isn't, "Should I breed A?" but is instead, "I bred A and what do I expect..".

At this point - the decision is made - the deed is done - to harp about what a wrong thing it was to do is just pointless. Yet so often it seems like people want to chime in about how "you shouldn't have done that..". 

Well great - how do you put spilled milk back into the milk bottle? You don't. The deed is done.

The second type of posts we see come from questions of "I'm thinking about breeding.." I'm certainly glad some of y'all weren't around when I first started thinking of breeding...fortunately - a couple of people here on the forum took me under their wings and answered my questions and I'll never forget the time Buck Jones stood up for me against a troll who was upset about my wanting to breed. 

While I'm no longer breeding and I recognize that breeding isn't for me....it was a good experience (some of it) and it is something I'm glad I did.

I'm not always in favor of people breeding - in fact - a large percentage of the time I'm against it. 

But I'm not here to change their behavior - I'm here to educate them so they can make an informed decision. 

In other words - I try (and don't always succeed) to approach this forum without an agenda....I wish I could succeed at it.

I want to close this rambly post with a story and I hope it will help you to understand where I am coming from.

A while back we had someone on the forum who was giving up a rabbit I really REALLY loved. It was a color and breed that I loved and they were trading the rabbit for another one. It does not matter who it was - it was way back before most of you were here probably.

I was very frustrated - to the point that I was going to call the breeder that was taking in this rabbit to see if I could buy it from them so it wouldn't be bred and could have a pet home.

I was not the only one frustrated though - so were some of the other moderators. 

Pipp stepped in and said something that cut me deeply - but it was so true and it was a lesson I needed to learn. She said something roughly along the lines of, *"It is X's rabbit and we can't make X do anything we want with the rabbit. It is X's to give away, sell, breed, not breed, or do whatever. While we're here for the rabbits - we can't make X do anything."*

That is the philosophy I bring with me now to moderating the rabbitry. Ultimately - the rabbit belongs to person X, Y, Z - whatever. I can't MAKE them do anything. 

I can try to educate them. I can try to ask them questions. I can get myself really frustrated because I WANT them to do something.

But at the end of the day - it is their rabbit to do with as they think is best.

Do I support that decision? I will give them advice if they need it later on. I won't support what they did but I will try to help them deal with the consequences.

Anyway - I guess what I'm trying to say is - I do get frustrated with many who post and that does make me wish sometimes that we had a private forum. But I don't think it would help as many people as it does this way....


----------



## naturestee (Feb 10, 2009)

Ditto to everything Jenson said!

And if someone wants to write up something on what questions to ask yourself before breeding, that would be great!


----------



## Flashy (Feb 10, 2009)

'"If you are not a breeder, you don't support breeding and you have nothing of note to contribute to a thread beyond expressing an opinion on breeding, PLEASE don't post."'

Jenson, can I ask, where is the line drawn? Generally or specifically?

As in, I no longer breed (or rather, am not breeding currently), and may not support someones choice to breed, so therefore I should stay away from a thread?

I'm definitely not trying to be controversial, I just really need to know where these boundaries lie because otherwise I'm going to drive all you mods crazy by continuing to do the wrong things.

As for improvements in the Rabbitry, I mentioned this to Peg recently, but I said that people 'like me' may respond more because there have been less active responsible breeders around, and that if more well known responsible breeders were posting, maybe people 'like me' would not feel the need to post as much. At the time I acknowledged that I understand you all have your own lives and they are ALL very stressful and I don't for one second want people to push themselves, or do more than they feel they can or don't appreciate all you all do but I did sort of wonder outloud if there was a way to cultivate the breeders on the forum to post more, or to make them more comfortable or something. However, since I said that, breeders HAVE been posting more, and, from my point of view, I think that it has had a really positive affect on what's going on in the forum. I guess what I think I'm saying is that this forum maybe became more casual with my novices posting advice, but that the presence of more responsible breeders being active could (and already has), turned it in the right direction.

I know people don't like it when I express my opinions, but none of this is actually negative. I'm genuinely a, looking for clarity on some issues, and b, looking for ways for this forum to be what people want it to be, because currently people do seem unhappy here, or unhappy with things going on here.


----------



## Flashy (Feb 10, 2009)

Oh, and Jenson, thank you fr your reply, it's really appreciated


----------



## Flashy (Feb 10, 2009)

Peg, thanks for your long response 

I can guess who that rabbit was because that had a profound affect on me too, and I completely get what you say about what Pipp said.

I guess my idea about a sub forum was not necessarily just for breeders, just those that the rabbitry mods (or mofds in general) decided were 'ok' (ack, for want of a better word) to let in. 

I sort of viewed it as a sub forum, so that anyone could post in the main Rabbitry forum, but that 'hardcore', or 'sensitive' or 'dodgy' or anything that someone didn't want to post publicly, could go in there. I guess maybe those who had proved themselves, or who needed that access could be allowed in, even if it was reviewed regularly, or something.

I have also seen some topics raising sensitive issues such as meat rabbits and culling, that also could potentially go in there. Nothing gritty, but just maybe slightly more tolerant to those things?

I completely hear what you guys and others are saying, and, to be honest, I have been mulling this idea over for a while, and can completely see pros and cons to both options, it really was just throwing an idea out there because some people seem unhappy here right now.

That's all


----------



## TinysMom (Feb 10, 2009)

I just posted a thread of "Read before you breed" which I started writing a while ago and then put aside.

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=43869&forum_id=8


----------



## irishbunny (Feb 10, 2009)

Maybe there should be a forum for just serious breeders, who want to talk about breeding seriously between eachother and this forum too. I am not against breeding in anyway and I might get into breeding, when I am older and have my own space, there is no point now, since I will be moving out in three years. I do like to learn about breeding from the forum and my own research and have picked up the basics on how to breed and raise a litter, I wouldn't know anything fancy like genetics or showing. I try and only post with advice, and I only ever post solid advice that I know is accurate. Sometimes, I find it hard to stick to advice only when I see something extremely frustrating, and it's hard not to put in a personal opinion when you can see that a rabbit or the babies will suffer.


----------



## TinysMom (Feb 10, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> Peg, thanks for your long response
> 
> I can guess who that rabbit was because that had a profound affect on me too, and I completely get what you say about what Pipp said.


Thanks Tracy.

You mentioned about experienced breeders not posting as much - and I thought I would share why I don't post as much as I probably should/could.

As many would guess from my posts - I can be a very emotional person. Not only am I wired to be emotional - but I'm at a point in my life (mid-life aka "change of life") where there are sometimes days when my hormones will just rush through and I can become overcome by emotions. I might laugh for a bit and then wind up in tears bawling over something else. 

I get very attached to the rabbits in the forum and when some of them have passed away (ie - Samantha, Raph, Herman, Sakura, Dill and so many others) - I grieve almost as bad as if they were mine.

When I find out a rabbit in the forum is expecting - I'm almost as bad as if it was my rabbit that was bred and is expecting. I anxiously count down the days to see how the rabbit is doing.

Because of my makeup like this - it is very easy for me to "burn-out" in the rabbitry area. I hear about people breeding rabbits that are too old for a first litter - or too young. Or they don't have a plan for the babies - or whatever...and it just stresses me out. 

I have been known to walk away from the computer crying because someone had pencil kits ... or they had problems with a litter from a pet rabbit.

I still remember breeding GingerSpice - my first pet lionhead doe - just so I could have something from her. I shouldn't have done it - her immune system started breaking down shortly before she was due to wean the babies...and to this day - I believe I caused her early death. No one can convince me otherwise.

So when I read of someone wanting to breed a pet - I want to shout at the top of my lungs, "NO..Don't do that". But alas - either the deed is done....or the person won't listen.

So sometimes - I don't post - because I don't think the person will listen to reason - perhaps I've read other posts and I realize that they're looking only for certain answers. 

I'm sorry - because in some ways I'm sure I've failed as a moderator to work in the rabbitry enough.

But that's why I sometimes pull away - because this area just brings me too much pain - partly from people who are determined to breed their rabbits - and partly from those who are just as determined to stop them.

I guess it is a good thing I'm going on vacation soon ...


----------



## BlueGiants (Feb 10, 2009)

I think there will always be irresponsible people breeding rabbits for all the wrong reasons. And we certainly need to point out those patterns for the sake of the rabbits. It is very frustrating when people seem to make the same mistakes, and we end up repeating ourselves, over and over again.

But we need to be here for them... for the sake of the rabbits. "Accidental" breedings will always happen. Poorly thought out breedings will always happen. Maybe with our advice and guidance, they will learn something. Maybe we will have a positive influence over how they care for and raise their rabbits. Maybe... or maybe not. But we have to try.

I don't think we need a private sub-forum. Everything that is discussed here is a benefit to the rabbit community. We do have to remember that the rabbits belong to people who may or may not have their well being at heart. But with gentle advice and proper guidance, people can be educated. And that will be the beginning of change.

We caneducate people that there are better ways to do things. We can discourage indiscriminate breedings. But we can not control everything. At least if we keep the lines of communication open, we may be able to influence people's decisions and the lives of their rabbits.


----------



## TinysMom (Feb 10, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> I guess my idea about a sub forum was not necessarily just for breeders, just those that the rabbitry mods (or mofds in general) decided were 'ok' (ack, for want of a better word) to let in.


I understand where you're coming from - but for me - part of the hard thing is - how do you know that someone knows what they think they know?

Sometimes I see people join and post who have rabbitries and breed - yet I shake my head at some of what they say. Or others think there is only one way to breed. For instance - I want to say that I read in Europe - they don't use nestboxes. I think there are some cages where the nestbox is a wire box that hangs below the cage - I've seen pictures of that with meat rabbits in it. With certain does - I haven't used a nestbox until after they gave birth- I completely lined their cages with hay and scraps of fabric - but it never failed that those does wouldn't use a nestbox to give birth in it. Once the babies were born - I'd move them to the nestbox and mama was fine. Yet other breeders say, "Always use a nestbox"....and with those does - I wound up losing litters with a nestbox in place.

So I was in a frustrating spot - do what everyone says and use a nestbox (and lose the litter?) or create my own thing - and wind up saving the litter? By the way - these were for pets rabbits (although they could be show too) - but I wasn't trying to raise brood does that would be sold to other breeders and not use a nestbox for them. I'm probably not stating that right .. but oh well!

So my point is - trying to decide who to let in - would almost be more frustrating than moderating here! 

Anyway - you've brought up a great thread.....


----------



## Flashy (Feb 10, 2009)

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo You have no reason to justify anything, no one does.

What I tried to say in my post (and apparently failed with) is that I understand that everybody gives what they can give, and that amount varies from person to person. Every mod and member here has a busy life, they have stresses, they have other things to do, and they probably have many more buns than other members, lol. What I was trying to say was that if there are people who don't post because they are anxious about their knowledge, or being judged, or whatever, then maybe we should try and 'cultivate' and encourage people to post more. There is a huge wealth of responsible breeders on this forum, and the more that chime in, in my eyes, the better, because the more the wealth of knowledge people on the forum potential get. It's no good relying completely on you mods because in addition to your real lives, you are mods, or senior mods, or admin, and that in itself adds a workload, but the more members feel able and want to post here, the better?

^That was in response to Peg by the way.


----------



## BlueGiants (Feb 10, 2009)

A lot of "Breeders" are a bit "head-shy" about posting. You get bashed for your opinion by a certain group often enough, you stop voicing your opinion. That was the main reason for posting the *"If you are not a breeder, you don't support breeding and you have nothing of note to contribute to a thread beyond expressing an opinion on breeding, PLEASE don't post."*

And what works for a certain breeder may not alwaysfitother's opinion of rabbit care. But by discussing all this in the open, we all learn from each other, and always for the betterment of rabbits.


----------



## Jenson (Feb 10, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> '"If you are not a breeder, you don't support breeding and you have nothing of note to contribute to a thread beyond expressing an opinion on breeding, PLEASE don't post."'
> 
> Jenson, can I ask, where is the line drawn? Generally or specifically?
> 
> As in, I no longer breed (or rather, am not breeding currently), and may not support someones choice to breed, so therefore I should stay away from a thread?


This is a tricky one. I think it's up to people to decide whether they can be fairly neutral in a post and whether or not they have anything of value to offer to a post. Of course, sometimes we will need to step in, but like the mod guidelines say, we are not hall monitors. I think that it basically comes down to this: if you have some helpful adivce to offer, go ahead. If not, leave it be. That is just my opinion of course, I didn't write the guidelines, that's just what I think of them. 

As for the experienced breeders not being around much, I noticed that too since I have been back. Hopefully things will improve as people are getting more active. I think a lot of us just find it hard sometimes, I know Peg has said this before, but sometimes I can read a post and have to go and do something else because it's so frustrating. Of course it's very nice to be able to offer adivce and help people too which is why I do it, but it can be hard on all of us. 

And Tracy I love hearing your opinions, you always raise good points and I think it's good for us to have a sort of review of how things are going and how we could improve!


----------



## Jenson (Feb 10, 2009)

*BlueGiants wrote:*


> We caneducate people that there are better ways to do things. We can discourage indiscriminate breedings. But we can not control everything. At least if we keep the lines of communication open, we may be able to influence people's decisions and the lives of their rabbits.


:yeahthat:

That's basically what I was trying to get at...and you got it in 4 sentences!


----------



## irishbunny (Feb 10, 2009)

I really need to try and stay out of the rabbitry unless I have something to ask, I find it really depressing, for some reason I can't stop coming back.


----------



## BlueGiants (Feb 10, 2009)

I think it's really great that Flashy brought up this discussion. It's excellent that we can focus on the "how's and why's" of what we answer and discuss in the Rabbitry. 

I know how Peg feels for sure... we just get done talking someone through a bad kindling or dead babies, and someone else pops on to ask about breeding an older doe... or breeding a big buck to a tiny doe... or any of the other questions we've dealt with over the last year. And pardon the pun, but it's "deja vu, all over again". 

We can't prevent people from doing dumb things. But if they ask our advice, maybe we can prevent them from doing it again.


----------



## Flashy (Feb 10, 2009)

*Jenson wrote: *


> *BlueGiants wrote:*
> 
> 
> > We caneducate people that there are better ways to do things. We can discourage indiscriminate breedings. But we can not control everything. At least if we keep the lines of communication open, we may be able to influence people's decisions and the lives of their rabbits.
> ...


I just wanted to say that I really like this sentence (and I quoted Jenson because I was too lazy to quote the whole thing then delete it down). Those are very wise words.


----------



## polly (Feb 10, 2009)

i think sometimes we get a lot of mistake litters happening at once for whatever reason and that it is a great area of the forum for that and helping people and yes a lot of times if you feel the person won't listen then its really frustrating. It is a hard thing to get right breeding area on a most prominently pet forum but we do not bad. Things like meat rabbits are a reality and although its easy to say dont read if u have nothing to add invariably someone is bound to be incensed and feel they have to respond.
I know it would be hard to choose who could go into a restricted forum area for breeders but leaving a rabbitry here for everyone to use as well but could see some benefits as I am sure a lot of breeders maybe find it hard to ask soem questions that could be considered touchy though personally I would use a breeder only forum for that kind of thing.
Peg I have to agree with you there are times where it can take me a long time to reply if i feel frustrated about it but for different reasons to you I am more likely to engage mouth (or fingers in this case) before engaging brain!!

I think the only problem I find within the rabbitry is that people tend to see more the easy side as it would be inapropriate to post a lot of problems that we have or can have as breeders a lot of those things such as teeth problems max factors etc would show a lot of people that breeding is not as easy as putting 2 rabbits together and wham bam thankyou mam!! but i also understand that it is upsetting to people as well


----------



## BlueGiants (Feb 10, 2009)

You are right, Polly! Sometimes it is a delicate balancing act.


----------



## Jenson (Feb 10, 2009)

*polly wrote: *


> I think the only problem I find within the rabbitry is that people tend to see more the easy side as it would be inapropriate to post a lot of problems that we have or can have as breeders a lot of those things such as teeth problems max factors etc would show a lot of people that breeding is not as easy as putting 2 rabbits together and wham bam thankyou mam!! but i also understand that it is upsetting to people as well


That is very true. We don't see a lot of people sharing their bad experiences, but they still happen.

It would be very depressing to have posts about things going wrong, but maybe it's not a bad thing once in a while if it will make people understand that breeding can be very hard. 

It's one thing to read about the possible things that could go wrong, but then when you know that is has happened to someone maybe it hits home a bit more. I know it does for me.


----------



## polly (Feb 10, 2009)

yes it does for me too.

Conundrum: a litter born with max factor babies no eyelidsall alive now do you leave them for nature to take its course which is very painful and slow or do you do what more breeders class as the humane thing and cull.

Is this then appropriate for the rabbitry forum on here or will it be to upsetting to a lot of people who read it but don't breed? do you take it elsewhere? but then people on here who see babies etc and decide they want babies like that never get to see that side of breeding as no one wants flamed from pet owners.

talk about deliacte!! thing is it does and can happen


----------



## Jenson (Feb 10, 2009)

*polly wrote: *


> yes it does for me too.
> 
> Conundrum: a litter born with max factor babies no eyelidsall alive now do you leave them for nature to take its course which is very painful and slow or do you do what more breeders class as the humane thing and cull.
> 
> ...


I think in cases like this we should talk about it. As long as there is a "Warning, may be upsetting" on the title I think it's okay. 

At the end of the day, it's the rabbitry, it's about breeding, and sometimes breeding is not nice. People should know this when they enter the rabbitry and it's their choice to read.


----------



## irishbunny (Feb 10, 2009)

You could make a sticky about all the different things that go wrong and call it something like ''The down side to breeding'' and have all the various things that can happen, with maybe some pics (unless that is too upsetting) and stories from people here that it has happened to. Just a thought.


----------



## naturestee (Feb 10, 2009)

I would actually be interested in a discussion of what to do with fatally deformed babies- peanuts, max factors, etc. It's something you need to be prepared for when working with the dwarf breeds. What should I do if I come across this at the shelter? Dwarf buns of various types are pretty common.

Not to mention stillbirths (Jazzy had two DOAs in the second litter, very upsetting), stuck kits, pregnancy toxemia, enteritis (whee fun! I really should write up Dora's story)... 

These topicsmay be upsetting for some members, but I think it's important for people who want to breed to go into it with their eyes open and be prepared for any problems. Also, even if you've been learning and breeding for a while you might learn something new.

We do have a policy here against discussions on meat rabbits. Everyone just gets too emotional and the thread gets crazy.


----------



## polly (Feb 10, 2009)

fair enough to be honest I would have been very iffy posting a topic like that obviously I do not think any breeder doesn't understand there may be times when culling is your bestoption. and I do think people should see that side but it can be difficult for a lot of breeders to do that if they feel they may get flamed


----------



## polly (Feb 10, 2009)

*naturestee wrote: *


> I would actually be interested in a discussion of what to do with fatally deformed babies- peanuts, max factors, etc. It's something you need to be prepared for when working with the dwarf breeds. What should I do if I come across this at the shelter? Dwarf buns of various types are pretty common.
> 
> Not to mention stillbirths (Jazzy had two DOAs in the second litter, very upsetting), stuck kits, pregnancy toxemia, enteritis (whee fun! I really should write up Dora's story)...
> 
> ...


I also feel that would be a good discussion especially as many people who want to breed their pets have a dwarf breed. perhaps you could start a seperate topic along those lines


----------



## Jenson (Feb 10, 2009)

*polly wrote: *


> *naturestee wrote: *
> 
> 
> > I would actually be interested in a discussion of what to do with fatally deformed babies- peanuts, max factors, etc. It's something you need to be prepared for when working with the dwarf breeds. What should I do if I come across this at the shelter? Dwarf buns of various types are pretty common.
> ...



I think that's a brilliant idea. It would also be a good resource for people who wanted to be well prepared as well as showing people the dark side of breeding.


----------



## murph72 (Feb 10, 2009)

Could there possibly be a way to denote which members are breeders? That way anyone could post a comment, but those not familiar with the posters would know which advice was coming from a breeder. 

I don't think making this forum "for breeders only" would be the way to go because it is a great resource for accidental breedings. Let's face it, baby bunnies aren't the easiest animals to sex for those that don't know what they are looking for. Pet stores sell bunnies claiming they are one sex and in four months the new owner finds out they are another. In these cases, those poor owners are desperate to get information about their unexpected litters. This is a great area for them to get that much needed information.

To be honest, as a breeder I'm most likely to look at the Breeders section and the Infirmary section as these are the areas where I'm most likely to either learn something else, or be able to offer advice/help for others if it is something I've also experienced. IMO, those are the two most valuable areas on RO and why I keep coming back.


----------



## Jenson (Feb 10, 2009)

*murph72 wrote: *


> Could there possibly be a way to denote which members are breeders? That way anyone could post a comment, but those not familiar with the posters would know which advice was coming from a breeder.


That would be a good idea, I think something like the mana we had before would work for this. I think again if were going to give a badge or something similar to breeders it would cause problems (we'll still have bad breeders wanting to be in the "breeder" club etc,), but if we could have some sort of "reputation" button like many forums do (that members click if they find a post helpful) that would be a fair way to do it. 

I'm not sure if that is a possibility at the moment or if the mana is still being worked on, but maybe that's something for future.


----------



## BlueGiants (Feb 10, 2009)

It's not just the dwarfs that have issues. Breeding the giants, I've had really (overly) giant babies that were born dead or died shortly after birth. We all get babies that are not as fully developed as it's siblings (fertilized later, back of the horn, whatever you wish to call it). There are a lot of issues that we deal with that we tend to refrain from posting about. 

One thing I've noticed isvery fewpeople take advantage of the vast wealth of knowledge that already exisits on this forum. We have a VERY extensive library. Very few people actually do a search for their problem, question or issue. Or they come on here thinking they are the only ones that ever had to deal with a particular problem. So we end up repeating ourselves, time after time.


----------



## Numbat (Feb 11, 2009)

I'd just like to say that I think this is a great discussion and breeding questions/problems are a good idea.

I believe that if new breeders are educated they can become very good breeders themselves.

I don't think there should be a separate forum for just breeders as many beginners come here to look for advice.

For me, the rabbitry is one of the most interesting forums on this site so I just decided to add my opinion


----------



## Flashy (Feb 11, 2009)

I was thinkingabout this last night, and funnily enough, it's sort of come around anyway. I was thinking maybe those (both breeders and non-a good example being naturestee) who have had problems with breeding could write about their experiences (maybe just bad, maybe bad and good), be them due to lack of knowledge, or birthing complications, genetic factord, etc. Maybe it could be some sort of sticky where new breeders are encouraged to go to read about what they might face. I think in there it would be important to talk about your max factor babies, the debates you have on when to cull, losing does/kits, emergency spays, finance, anything and everything.

I've made horrific mistakes in my breeding, but I would be willing to share those in more detail if there was the possibility that it could prevent someone else from making similar mistakes.

I guess like a members breeding biography sticky/area, or something. Maybe a locked one so people could not respond.


----------



## Flashy (Feb 11, 2009)

Oh, and can I say that several people (myself included) thought this would decend into a slanging match and that I would get torn apart by people, but it was REALLY nice to come down this morning and read what everyone had written, so thanks


----------



## Flashy (Feb 11, 2009)

Oh, just to add yet another post, someone raised with me that they are not sure how to tackle posts where you know the person is lying, or hiding info. Is the best thing to do in that situation to just simply avoid the person/post?


----------



## pamnock (Feb 11, 2009)

People are going to make their own decisions and make their own mistakes. Trying to impose our will on others can alienate posters who need our help the most.

The issue of non-breeders flaming in the breeding forum has been brought up before and continues to be a problem. If you don't like a poster/topic, don't respond to their posts.

Pam


----------



## Flashy (Feb 11, 2009)

I think I've become some sort of 'go between', lol. I guess it's probably easier for me to post issues such as this than the person raise them themselves if they feel uncomfortable here.

Someone else has raised something with me about this forum, and it is also something that is relevant to me.

This person was basically asking what 'qualifies' someone to be 'allowed' to have an opinion/give advice here. 

What they mean is, I think, whether if you have had one or two casual litters, but are not a breeder specifically, then are you welcome to post here?

I often feel like I'm not welcome in here because I'm not currently breeding, yet I do feel I potentially have stuff to offer. Irishbunnies has had two failed litters and has been posting here but says

*irishbunny wrote: *


> I really need to try and stay out of the rabbitry unless I have something to ask, I find it really depressing, for some reason I can't stop coming back.


which to me (and correct me if I'm wrong Grace), she feels not comfortable here and maybe like she shouldn't be posting?

Is there a specific set of criteria for someone to meet to be allowed to contribute here?

I get Pipp's point about



> If you are not a breeder, you don't support breeding and you have nothing of note to contribute to a thread beyond expressing an opinion on breeding, PLEASE don't post.


but that's not clear about those of us who are on the cusp, in that we are not recognised breeders. I think the lines are becoming blurred as to what is and isn't allowed, and what people interpret that is. Also, other people's reactions to them are relevant here too.

So, any thoughts?


----------



## whaleyk98 (Feb 11, 2009)

I have been sitting back reading the posts since this came up and I first have thought "oh no, where is this going to go". But I think that everyone is getting their questions out now and trying to get clarifications to certain things (thanks Flashy). Im fairly new to this site and fairly new to breeding also(thisforum is highly addicting). This is the only section that I go to on this site...ok, I may occasionally wander....but Im glued here because I love to hear what people have to say and the information is great. I have seen somethings onhere and some very irrisponsible things from others regarding breeding when they really shouldnt be....but like what was said before, you cant make anyone do anything or listen to what people have to sayif they dont want to. I usually just sit back and soak it in...I too can learn from someone elses mistakes. I dont tend to post on them because sometimes I tend to say things that I shouldntAs far as a locked post or a place where only "allowed or specific people" were to post, I would be severly disapointed as I look forward to being able to talk to those of you who are experienced and ..ahem...know what you are talking about. I dont know what Im talking abouthalf the time and I need the expertice. So anywho, Im not sure if my opinion was welcome or not...just though youd like to hear from someone who "sits in the background".:biggrin2:


----------



## Jenson (Feb 11, 2009)

*Flashy wrote:*


> Is there a specific set of criteria for someone to meet to be allowed to contribute here?
> 
> I get Pipp's point about
> 
> ...


I would like to hear other mods/admins take on this one, but this is what I think.

I don't think we _can_ have a specific set of criteria, it's just not possible to do that without alienating people. There is no clear cut line here and it wouldn't work if we tried to make one.

Basically you just have to ask yourself if you have something of worth to contribute. It doesn't say "Don't post unless you're a breeder", it's also "don't post if you have nothing of note to contribute", so if you do think you have something useful to share, you should go ahead regardless of your experience or whether or not you consider yourself a breeder. It's about who has something helpful to say, not who is qualified to contribute.

So in your case Tracy you should always feel comfortable to post because you always do have something of value to contribute.


----------



## BlueGiants (Feb 11, 2009)

This Forum (in general) and this Subforum (in particular) are very different from what is commonly "out there" for Rabbit lovers. It is one of the few places that breeders are welcome. And I (personally speaking) think it needs to be available to anyone and everyone that might need it.

I think anyone should be able to post here, as long as it's not flaming and bashing "just for breeding". (Hence the warning at the top!)

It is really wonderful that we can be here for those "accidental" litters or to advise some considering a rabbit breeding. Maybe, with well thought out guidance and advice, it can either be done correctly, with the welfare of the rabbits first and foremost, or not done, with the welfare of the rabbits first and foremost.


----------



## irishbunny (Feb 13, 2009)

Thanks for that Flashy, I was also wondering, since I am not a rabbit breeder as such should I be posting here, sometimes I see a post of someone looking for some basic breeding advice that I know the answer to and I often wonder, should I post it or should I leave it?


----------



## Numbat (Feb 13, 2009)

In my opinion, you should post if you can help someone, and you've definitely been helpful. But that's just what I think.


----------



## Bramblerose (Feb 13, 2009)

I read here from time to time but seldom post anymore, RO is more geared towards pet people than breeders, and I always feel like I have to carefully craft and then censor my posts as to not offend the pet people, even when posting here on the breeders forum. Its become not worth it for me, although I like RO and many of the people here. And its not just me, I know of a number of breeders who are RO members, some of them are even meat rabbit breeders, and they keep their heads down and mouths shut, and seldom participate, although they have a wealth of knowledge to share. I have to be honest, I don't really think that your going to have an easy time of getting more breeders to participate, not once they realize that their opening themselves up for attack by the more militant types on this forum. I've had other breeders refer to RO as a 'PETA Pit', I'm not saying that to offend anyone, really, honestly I'm not, just trying to help folks see how RO is viewed and why breeders may not feel comfortable posting here. I think this is a great little breeders forum, and it does help a lot of people, but how will it continue without attracting new breeder members and encouraging present members to share knowledge. Answering the same questions over and over can cause burnout for long time members, often its nice to have newer members take over. Except for banning non-breeders for flaming in the rabbitry I don't know how your going to change things for the better, or convince breeder members to post. Just some thoughts I've had, while lurking.


----------



## Flashy (Feb 14, 2009)

^I was aware that many breeders don't post, and I find that so sad, especially when they will potentially have so much to offer. I just think that's so sad. And also such a waste of their knowledge.


----------

