# Need help with potential problem



## TinysMom (Jan 22, 2008)

About a month ago, we were moving rabbits around in the rabbitry and Recharged - a buck who had a very hard time getting does pregnant - was moved into a double-hole cage where a doe was in the other side.

Now before anyone starts criticizing me - the holes were pretty small and Recharged only got does pregnant when they lived IN his cage for like a week or two. He's not exactly my best producing buck. 

While I have had a case before of "between the bars" breeding - that was with the black dog kennel type cages I used - where the bars are farther apart (I since learned to be very careful about those).

Last week I pulled the blue doe from beside Recharged and checked her over and then went ahead and bred her to Sting (as I had tenatively planned). When I got her out and examined her, I did not palpate her (because I had not bred her). I did notice she had gained some weight but she wasn't "fat" or to the point where she would be unhealthy. 

Today I pulled her out of a different cage (I moved her after breeding her because she is going to a mama cage this next week or so...as soon as I can get one cleaned out and ready for her) and she is VERY big. I am horrible at palpating - but this is not being 7 or 8 days pregnant. This is more like....just a bit away from delivery? 

I am not 100% sure on this and I can't palpate worth beans....but I have a couple of questions.


a. If she bred w/ Recharged through the bars and got one horn pregnant - is it possible that Sting got the second horn pregnant?

b. Is there any way to tell?

c. Is she in any danger? What about the kits? 

d. If she has one litter of kits and they're alive - will she nurse them if she has a second litter also?

HELP?

Peg

P.S. I will admit that it is possible I could be paranoid but Art felt her and said it feels like she's definitely farther along than one week....


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## TinysMom (Jan 22, 2008)

Well, I did some googling on the internet and found out that yes it can happen for the doe to get pregnant at two different times. I'm going to pull her out in a bit and try to palpate her to see if she feels lopsided (like one horn has bigger/more kits) and take a guess that way before I decide if she needs to see a vet for this.

Right now she's sitting at her cage door staring out at me....I wish I knew what she was thinking.

Peg

P.S. What I am hoping is she got pregnant from Recharged in both horns and that when she allowed Sting to mount her, etc. - she did not get pregnant and that was a miss. Or that I'm misjudging this - she's just a bit fat and that she did get pregnant from Sting.

Oh yeah - and I've also made sure that there are no does side by side w/ bucks in that stack of double cages. I'm not the one who put Recharged in that cage - but honestly, I didn't really think twice about it after I noticed it since he never really performed and the holes really are small.


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## pamnock (Jan 22, 2008)

Before I learned to palpate, I always bred the does 2 weeks after the first breeding and never had a "double pregnancy".

Superfoetation (double pregnancy)is extremely rare in rabbits. They do have 2 uterine horns, but so do many other mammals, including dogs, which do not experience double pregnancies. Although rare, superfoetation is not impossible and is even documented in humans.

Superfoetation is however, common in hares, which become receptive in the last 5 days of the first gestation.



*Opps - my post morphed and part of it disappeared.*



I also mentioned that the buck would have to be very dexterous to impregnate the doe through the wire - but it's not impossible.

Pam


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## Bo B Bunny (Jan 22, 2008)

No criticizing here - I'm laughing cause "recharged" - I keep thinking of the rechargeable energizer bunny.

THEN I think about him thinking "she doesn't suspect a thing....... here's my chance....... "


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## TinysMom (Jan 22, 2008)

Thanks folks. Hopefully - she's just big and only pregnant from Sting. I'm going to watch her with the pile of hay I'll start keeping in her cage - as soon as she starts to carry it in her mouth - in goes the nestbox.

I honestly can't see how she could've gotten pregnant through the bars..but I have heard of it happening. All I know is - she's a big girl right now - noticeably bigger than she was before. It doesn't seem like she would be this big on day 8 or 9 of a pregnancy.

I did take her out and check her over some more. She doesn't feel lopsided - both sides feel the same. If she was pregnant from Recharged - I would've though I'd be feeling kicks (based on her size right now)....but I didn't feel that.

So I guess I'll just keep a close eye on her and watch and wait.

My biggest concern was the whole double pregnancy thing....

Peg


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## Bo B Bunny (Jan 22, 2008)

I wonder if she would have even allowed him to get her if she was already preggers.

Maybe she's going to have a zillion babies!!!


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## pamnock (Jan 22, 2008)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> I wonder if she would have even allowed him to get her if she was already preggers.
> 
> Maybe she's going to have a zillion babies!!!



Unfortunately, receptiveness to the buck isn't a reliable indicator of pregnancy. Some pregnant does will very willingly accept a buck, and some barren does will refuse the buck.

Pam


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## BlueGiants (Jan 22, 2008)

I've had submissive does allow a buck to mount her, even when she was already weeks into being bred. So don't go by that. 

I've never heard first hand evidence of a double pregnancy that far apart. (... I've heard of two bucks breeding the same doe the same day and the kits come out with some looking like one buck and some looking like the other... tough to write a pedigree!)

Best thing to do is be ready for the "Recharged" litter. If she doesn't produce, give her 3 weeks and wait for another try!


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Jan 22, 2008)

Peg, be -very- careful when palpating her, as you don't want to damage the older kids if she has them. 

I would definitley take her to the vet to see what's up. 

As what I've read, if she has both horns -pregnant-, then when she delivers the first litter, the second litter may be born VERY premmature, most likely resulting in death of all the kits. This, is only a chance though.

In all my breeding, I have never experienced a double pregnancy, but I only breed my does once, not first and then 2 weeks later again. 

Good luck! 

Emily


Edited to Add: 

If you say she is huge, but you're not feeling any kicks, it's likely she just gained wait and didn't get pregnant from Recharged. I have just rested my hands on 3-4 wk. pregnant does and felt lots of kicking and it's very common to see/feel it when they're that far along. She sounds like (if she is pregnant by Recharged) that the kits inside her would be kicking, but if not, maybe she is pregnant just by Sting? It's very hard to tell if does have double pregnancies.


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## TinysMom (Jan 22, 2008)

*BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote: *


> Peg, be -very- careful when palpating her, as you don't want to damage the older kids if she has them.
> 
> *No. Really? I've been palapting for almost three years now - I just know I'm no good at it - probably because other breeders have told me I'm too darned gentle.
> 
> ...


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Jan 22, 2008)

I was just giving you the advice that I knew. And as for the taking to the vet, you suggested in one of your posts that you might take her. I was just adding to it. It seems you didn't appreciate my advice, but you took everyone elses, whys this? 

Emily


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## Starlight Rabbitry (Jan 22, 2008)

Peg, 

In my 15 years of breeding, I have never heard anything about double pregnancies happening to people does. I agree with Pam in that it is very rare but could happen. As for telling, unless you can palpate the individual horns (I can't) then I really don't know. I would just keep an eye on her.

Put a nestbox in anyway and keep palpating her. Never know...Recharged just may have gotten her. 

Sharon


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## TinysMom (Jan 22, 2008)

*BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote: *


> It seems you didn't appreciate my advice, but you took everyone elses, whys this?
> 
> Emily


Since we have pretty much discussed this privately - I'll leave it at that. 

Peg


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Jan 22, 2008)

K, Peg. No problem


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## tundrakatiebean (Jan 22, 2008)

*pamnock wrote: *


> Superfoetation (double pregnancy)is extremely rare in rabbits.


does anyone know how often this happens? I'm curious...


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## pamnock (Jan 22, 2008)

*tundrakatiebean wrote: *


> *pamnock wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Superfoetation (double pregnancy)is extremely rare in rabbits.
> ...



I don't know of any cases that have been confirmed to be certain.

Most cases that I've heard of were kits born 31 days after the first litter was born, so were not "double pregnancies". 

However, I have read of a couple cases in humans, so I guess nothing is impossible.

Pam


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Jan 22, 2008)

Pam, 

In humans!? OMG, that's very strange. Do you think you can maybe dig up some links on that? Thanks

Emily


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## gentle giants (Jan 22, 2008)

I have always been terrible at palpating too. I never trusted my own opinion, LOL. That breeder friend of yours that said she might have had a false pregnancy going on at first makes the most sense to me.


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## bunnybunbunb (Jan 22, 2008)

I HAVE had a doe have a double pregnancy. It IS possible. Mind had a horrible outcome. I didn't know she had bred so I bred her to a buck a week later. She had 5 babies(the last breeding) the day the first ones was due. She didn't nest but I did for her. Next day I went to check and there was 4 dead babies(1 of the early breeding and 3 of the ones that was full term). She raised 2 of the week early babies. When they started dieing off till the 2 I fostered them to a doe with 2 older babies. The two babies from the double pregnancy was just to small. One mad it till 2 weeks and the other 4 weeks. At 4 weeks it was the size of a 2 week old. They was NOT peanuts.


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## TinysMom (Jan 22, 2008)

*gentle giants wrote: *


> That breeder friend of yours that said she might have had a false pregnancy going on at first makes the most sense to me.


Yes - it makes the most sense to me.

I'm really not worried about her at this point in time - I'm going to watch her and at any signs of fur-pulling or nesting, I'll make sure she gets a nestbox. My biggest concern is getting her into a mama cage - I wanted to give her one that the babies are in now - they'll be weaning in about 2 weeks....but alas - I may put her in a smaller mama's cage than the three I'm using at the moment...

I think she just wanted to make my next 3 weeks interesting.....

:shock:


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## CorkysMom (Jan 22, 2008)

My vet taught me an awesome way to palp, I can't do the one I've seen online where the rabbit is basically on a table in their normal on all 4's position..but the way I was taughtI've becomeVERY accurate!! Its actually kinda a neat process to be able to feel them...

I do believe tho as stated, some people can and some can't...not sure why.....I do know some of my 4h'rs are scared they will hurt something and prolly aren't feeling quite firmly enuff!


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## pamnock (Jan 22, 2008)

*bunnybunbunb wrote: *


> I HAVE had a doe have a double pregnancy. It IS possible. Mind had a horrible outcome. I didn't know she had bred so I bred her to a buck a week later. She had 5 babies(the last breeding) the day the first ones was due. She didn't nest but I did for her. Next day I went to check and there was 4 dead babies(1 of the early breeding and 3 of the ones that was full term). She raised 2 of the week early babies. When they started dieing off till the 2 I fostered them to a doe with 2 older babies. The two babies from the double pregnancy was just to small. One mad it till 2 weeks and the other 4 weeks. At 4 weeks it was the size of a 2 week old. They was NOT peanuts.





The information you have provided does not prove that your doecarried 2 separate litters.

There are many cases of the same litter being born days apart. We had a Netherland Dwarf doe bred to 1 buck only one time. The 2 babies were born 4 days apart (both survived).

There are well over 300 different known genes for Dwarfism - not all of them are fatal. 





Pam


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## PixieStixxxx (Jan 23, 2008)

About humans having double pregnancies - there was an episode on Grey's Anatomy about it. Wife cheated on husband, and was having two different pregnancies with two different fathers.

I don't know anything about breeding, Peg, but I hope it turns out well for you in the end - and that your poor girl isn't having a double pregnancy.

Edit: What does palpate mean? :biggrin2:


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## Bo B Bunny (Jan 23, 2008)

There was a real family on tv one time - lady got preggers 1 white baby, 1 black - twins - freaky! They were from in-vitro fertilization where the doc's didn't use clean equipment and ended up with 2 pregnancies.

However, it can happen naturally also, and has.

palpate is basically to feel around.


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## GoinBackToCali (Jan 23, 2008)

Well then.. I am going to go Palpate around in the fridge for some yogurt and then go check the barn and see if I have any new litters..


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## okiron (Jan 23, 2008)

*GoinBackToCali wrote: *


> Well then.. I am going to go Palpate around in the fridge for some yogurt and then go check the barn and see if I have any new litters..


lmao silly zin


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## pamnock (Jan 23, 2008)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> There was a real family on tv one time - lady got preggers 1 white baby, 1 black - twins - freaky! They were from in-vitro fertilization where the doc's didn't use clean equipment and ended up with 2 pregnancies.
> 
> However, it can happen naturally also, and has.
> 
> palpate is basically to feel around.



I wanted to clarify that superfoetation (also spelled superfetation)is the term used for twodistinctly separate gestation periods from eggs released at different times as opposed to eggs released at the same time being fertilized by sperm from separate matings by one or more males (superfecundation). 

Superfoetation is very difficult to prove if the doe has been mated more than one time. As in the case that I had, the doe was only mated once by one male, so the kits being born 4 days apart were known _not_ to be 2 separate litters. I've had does deliver as far as ten days apart from a single mating (although none of those kits survived). People often assume that these cases are the result of two separate litters conceived at separation ovulations.

Kits also vary widely in size, so smaller kits are sometimes mistaken as a separate litters. This is probably the case in bunnybunbunb's litter.

Pam


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## Bo B Bunny (Jan 23, 2008)

*LOL!*

*I think I'm going to palpate around the truck for the steering wheel so I can drive to work..... unfortunately, I guess I have to open my eyes at some point. :caffeineThank God for Diet Coke!*

*Peg, not making light of your bunnies..... just goofing. I hope all is ok with her. Maybe some photos of her tummy would help us determine...... :whistling*



*GoinBackToCali wrote: *


> Well then.. I am going to go Palpate around in the fridge for some yogurt and then go check the barn and see if I have any new litters..


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## pamnock (Jan 23, 2008)

*BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote: *


> Pam,
> 
> In humans!? OMG, that's very strange. Do you think you can maybe dig up some links on that? Thanks
> 
> Emily



Opps - sorry Emily - I missed this post yesterday.

Here are a couple cases:

In 2007, Ame and Lia Herrity, conceived 3 weeks apart, were born in the United Kingdom to Amelia Spence and George Herrity. In May 2007, Harriet and Thomas Mullineux, also conceived 3 weeks apart, were born in Benfleet, Essex UK to Charlotte and Matt Mullineux.

This one was a hoax: Flavia d'Angelo, an Italianwoman claiming to have become pregnant with triplets three months after initially getting pregnant, caused global media interest in 2001. However, it was later revealed to be a hoax. 



Pam


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Jan 23, 2008)

no problem Pam. Wow that's freaky. :shock:


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## Jenson (Jan 23, 2008)

I think I had a doe have two seperate litters, but I'm not sure. I tried to breed her several times with no result, so I gave her a break for a few months, then tried again. Two weeks later and she's still lifting for the buck, so I bred her again. Two weeks later she had a litter of 4 healthy kits, another two weeks later she delivered 2 premature looking dead kits. I think I have a photo on the other computer. Anyway, she was perfectly fine and reared her healthy litter.


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## TinysMom (Jan 23, 2008)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> *Peg, not making light of your bunnies..... just goofing. I hope all is ok with her. Maybe some photos of her tummy would help us determine...... :whistling*


She is already furious with me for taking time yesterday to check her over (three times even - once by myself - once w/ Art and once w/ Robin). I think I'll leave her be for now.

I did take pictures of her yesterday and put them in my blog....I'll let y'all know when she has her litter.

Peg


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## Bo B Bunny (Jan 23, 2008)

_*runs to your blog............*:running bunny_

Is she in the pictures??


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## TinysMom (Jan 23, 2008)

Yes - she is Saphira - I took several photos of her yesterday - I wish I could show just how pretty she is.....

No matter who she were to have babies from - I'd be thrilled. I bred her with Sting because he has the dwarfing gene and that would help bring down the size a bit. Then again - if I remember right - Recharged might carry it too. Recharged is a sable point (Sting is dark sable/seal) and her mom is a sable point.

The thing that gets me is that her nipples are really getting noticeable....

Sadly, I'm leaning more towards thinking that she has a false pregnancy from being near Recharged - which makes me wonder if she will have taken when put with Sting. I say false pregnancy because of the lack of movement or kicking.

Anyway - I think I'll try to stop speculating about it...and just post when she does have babies (if she does) here in this thread...

Here are the pictures I posted of her in my blog...

















She doesn't look it in these photos - but she is actually a rich deep blue - not a black.

Peg


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## Bo B Bunny (Jan 24, 2008)

Ooo she's cute! I love her face - she looks a bit cheeky!

I hope she's preggers!


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## TinysMom (Jan 24, 2008)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> Ooo she's cute! I love her face - she looks a bit cheeky!
> 
> I hope she's preggers!


Her cage just got moved to beside my desk so I can see her more and she can get more used to me. (Maachi moved out from the bedroom to a cage underneath her). 

They'll get moved to mama's cages in a week or so (once the babies start getting weaned from their mamas). 

She keeps looking at me as if to say "I hate you" - even if I give her food or treats. She is a total grump today. 

Oh well....I love her anyway. She is very cheeky and has quite an attitude. That might be part of why I love her so much!

Peg


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Jan 24, 2008)

ooh Peg, she's adorable! *snatches and runs off to Australia....hehehehe!*

Emily


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## TinysMom (Jan 26, 2008)

Well - I don't have an update saying "we have babies"....I wish I did. I think I'd feel so much better.

However - she Saphira went off her food late yesterday afternoon. She's drinking lots of water (not an overly large amount - but she is still drinking). She chews on her hay a bit and stares at me (she's in my office right near my desk and I've covered her cage so it is darker for her). 

I'm trying to remember how long a doe can go off her feed before delivering - I knew some does would go off the day before - but what about 48 hours? Trying to figure out at what point I'll be concerned.

I can sit here and watch her stomach move and while I still can't feel kicks if I hold her (other than her wanting to kick me) - I can feel movement in her tummy area.

Right now she just looks at me like its all MY fault she feels miserable and grumpy.

Peg


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## Bo B Bunny (Jan 26, 2008)

LOL! She's probably looking at you thinking "WHAT is she looking at!?"


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## TinysMom (Jan 26, 2008)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> LOL! She's probably looking at you thinking "WHAT is she looking at!?"


I'm waiting for her to attack me the next time I open her cage and put my hand in.

She does NOT want me checking her over at all - she does NOT want to be held - she does not want love - she wants me to GO AWAY....like now...like yesterday. 

The funny thing is - she'll be sitting in her cage and I walk in the room and she sits up and at attention at her door - as if to say, "Don't you open it. Don't you look at me. Don't you sit down at that desk...you leave the room.."

She sorta reminds me of Zin's quote which I'll probably mangle greatly - but something along the lines of "the next time you're passing by this area - feel free to pass on by...". 

She does not appear to be in labor or anything and she looks at her hay and stuff and looks at me as if to say, "What the hay did you put that hay in here for?"

I just turned to peek at her while I was writing this - she was scratching her ear and she put down her foot and looked at me (wiggling her nose the whole time) and then almost acted like she was gonna charge the door if I dared to think about opening it.

I'm gonna do a bit more research to see how long she can be off her food (I'm really not too worried right now)...

Peg


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## Bo B Bunny (Jan 27, 2008)

LOL! What a brat! I guess they get grumpy during pregnancies too tho!

Has she started thumping at you yet? LOL!


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## RAL Rabbitry (Jan 27, 2008)

I've had does go off their feed for as much as 48 hours before they deliver.

Especially if they have a large litter. It's like there is no more room for anything

else in them. The doe that just had 9 didn't go off of her feed though. When I

went to feed at 5:30 AM she ate half of her breakfast jumped in her nestbox

and pulled fur like crazy and had her kits. By the time I was finishing watering

everyone a half hour later she was back at the feeder LOL. Not much keeps

her from her groceries!

Roger


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## pamnock (Jan 27, 2008)

I generally don't have does go off their feed before kindling, but I do occasionally have it happen. I try to get the does to eat a little grated carrot or Nutri Cal if they go off their feed prior to delivery. I don't like to see them missing more then 1 feeding or I get concerned. 



Pam


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## TinysMom (Jan 27, 2008)

Well - she's back on her food and she made sure to leave a pile of poops where I would find it....

So we go back to watching and waiting...

Peg


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## Leaf (Jan 27, 2008)

*BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote: *


> Pam,
> 
> In humans!? OMG, that's very strange. Do you think you can maybe dig up some links on that? Thanks
> 
> Emily


I "know" it happened to a lady on a soap opera my Mom watches. :rofl:


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## TinysMom (Jan 27, 2008)

*Leaf wrote: *


> I "know" it happened to a lady on a soap opera my Mom watches. :rofl:


Oh wow - and if it was on tv - it MUST be real!!!

:biggrin2:


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## TinysMom (Feb 9, 2008)

I'm gonna be a nervous wreck - Saphira is carrying hay around in her mouth and starting to nest. She isn't due quite yet - I've never had a doe give birth before day 31 that I can remember.....

I sure hope we have some bunnies soon.....I have tried to not mess with her too much...

She was bred on Monday, January 14th and will be 28 days on Sunday....

Peg


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 9, 2008)

inkbouce: come on Saphira!!! you have lots of pretty babies for your mama! inkbouce:


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## TinysMom (Feb 10, 2008)

I'm about to move Saphira out to the "mama cages" - she is due this week. I meant to move her last week but my life sorta just went out of control when Tiny passed away and I didn't get the mama cages cleaned out. 

I'm certainly going to miss her - I've had her by my desk so she could get more used to me and stuff. I can actually see her babies kicking now and I'm dying to find out how many she's gonna have.....

See my girl?














And yes...she is a cheeky little thing..

Peg


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## Hazel (Feb 11, 2008)

That bunny is so freaking adorable I died a little bit. I love lionheads (I hope she is one and I'm not making that up!! hahaha). Those little manes are soo adorable. 

Peg, do you breed lionlops? Or are they just pet animals? They're adorable too. I'm not adopting any more buns for at least a year, but when I do, lionheads and lops are on my list. Course, who knows who will need to be adopted and who I'll fall in love with, but they are what I'm thinking about,


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## TinysMom (Feb 11, 2008)

I have bred lionlops before and I may be doing so again with Milina - I just can't make up my mind whether or not to breed her again. I've talked to others about breeding her too and she is still young enough to be bred (she's had two litters already).....its just a matter of doing it.

Peg


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## TinysMom (Feb 14, 2008)

Just have to share that Saphira is NESTING....woo hoo. So good to see her carrying around hay in her mouth...

Peg


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## GoinBackToCali (Feb 14, 2008)

Remember... do what I did...

Show her the calender... tell her.. "birthday or stew pot.. your choice"...

Worked for me...

And NO people.. I don't eat rabbit's... I was just sick with worry over my does and I was trying to inspire them into giving me some babies..

Put yer pitchforks and peasant suits away...


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## TinysMom (Feb 14, 2008)

She chose birthday. Good choice.

She had four babies early this morning (before 6 am). I've been debating on whether or not to share because they were so small and I wasn't sure if one or two were peanuts or not.

She also pulled fur and acted like she was going to make a second nest. Since she was huge after she got pregnant - I was wondering if she was going to have babies from both horns.

I was going to rush her to the vet but talked to some breeders and decided to just keep an eye on her since she is not in any distress and does not seem to be panting or anything like that. She's just staring at me every once in a while. She has been eating hay and drinking water.

Her privates aren't swollen anymore and she looks good there and it looks like her milk came in because it looks like the babies were nursed and they look like they've grown a bit since this morning. 

Now my second doe is nesting and I'm going crazy...

Peg


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