# BIT SHOCKED BY WHAT PEOPLE ON OTHER FORUMS DISCUSS



## peppa and georgie (Jun 25, 2009)

I have realised that i am obvioulsy quite niaeve as i was on another forum merrily thinking how nice it is to talk about fluffy animals etc then i saw someone discussing really calmly about breeding rabbits to use as meat etc and home butchering squirrels, is it just me who is totally outraged by this.
I had no idea people who loved dogs and cats would be like that about other animals.
Not meaning to slate anyone in particular but was sooo surprised.
I really wanted to put a comment asking if anyone knew much about eating cats and dogs for dinner, meaning that i am sure they would be really against that as they have them as pets, but there is no difference to that and doing it to rabbits.
Sorry i am ranting here hope no one here will take this wrong way.
I clearly lead a sheltered existence lol xx


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## Brandy456 (Jun 25, 2009)

[suP]Yeah, not alot of people see bunny's as pets. Alot of people are stuck in the old times where anything with four legs was called dinner. Sadly to say alot of my family actually thought like that until I got Babii, as a pet. They then opend their eyes to she was another member of the family. [/suP]

[suP]Also, your comment about you wanted to ask about eating cats and dogs, in some cultures, feline is a delecasy (sp). Yeah, it's sick. But they, nor rabbit eaters have probably ever seen them as pets. [/suP]

[suP]Also, I think I know which forum you're talking about, thats the reason I left it. [/suP]


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## peppa and georgie (Jun 25, 2009)

Yes i dont have the guts to say anything as i imagine i will be slayed which is a bit cowardly of me but i guess they will say i shouldnt be on there. It is in the rabbit section though so you would have expected rabbit lovers not eaters.
God i am that ignorant i didnt realise the commercial meat thing was that big, i guessed it was some underground thing people didnt really do anymore, obviously i am wrong. Is it like that everywhere or just some countries. I just cant comprehend the discussion on a pet forum. The enphasis being on PET. I can accept you would expect it on a farming or industrial site of some kind, but people go on there to swap stories and get advice on curing not killing their pets surely xxx Sorry i am ranting again. x


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## irishlops (Jun 25, 2009)

i was n holiday in malta, and they were selling rabbit on every street coner..
rabbit and chps..
deep fried..
garlics
e.t.c.....


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## okiron (Jun 25, 2009)

There are people horrified that you eat pigs and cows as much as you are horrified with them eating rabbits.

Rabbits can be pets or food. You have to respect that. I would have no issues keeping some rabbits as pets while breeding others for food. I plan to do so with chickens, ducks and cows anyway.


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## peppa and georgie (Jun 25, 2009)

Sorry to correct you but i dont eat cows and pigs i am a vegetarian xxx I do not totally disrespect their choice i just find it a strange choice of conversation on a pet forum.
PET forum not a food forum xx


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## okiron (Jun 25, 2009)

Well I apologize for assuming you ate meat.

Does it specifically say pet forum? I mean Rabbits Online doesn't say "pet forum" it says "rabbit forum".


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## BSAR (Jun 25, 2009)

Well you have to remember rabbits were meant for food before being meant for pets and show as well. Just like cows and pigs and sheep.


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## irishbunny (Jun 25, 2009)

Personally I could never do it myself, but I don't have a problem with it as long as the rabbits are kept and killed humanely, it would be hypocritical of me to say I do have a problem with it when I eat meat myself (although I want to stop soon, I feel like if you aren't willing to keep the animal and slaughter yourself then don't buy meat that comes from cruel farms).


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## Mrs. PBJ (Jun 25, 2009)

I think this is a sore subject on this board. 
It may be removed by a mod.

We are not suposed to talk about this sort of thing.


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## Numbat (Jun 25, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> I don't have a problem with it as long as the rabbits are kept and killed humanely, it would be hypocritical of me to say I do have a problem with it when I eat meat myself.


:yeahthat:

People from different cultures are brought up differently. Rabbits and cats are looked upon as food just like some of us see cows as food (though I love cows I do also eat them). What I wish is that animals stopped being mistreated for any reason.


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## Brandy456 (Jun 25, 2009)

People eat wild rabbits, not domesticated. 

Alot of people do still eat that, when they hunt. Pretty sad, I know, I'd never be able to do it, or be around people while, it sickens me. 



and the forum she's talking about it does have pet in the URL.


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## JadeIcing (Jun 25, 2009)

*Brandy456 wrote: *


> People eat wild rabbits, not domesticated.




They eat both.


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## irishbunny (Jun 25, 2009)

*Brandy456 wrote: *


> People eat wild rabbits, not domesticated.


Nope, rabbits are raised in farms for meat, some people hunt them but most of the time people eat farmed rabbit meat, rabbits like New Zealands are raised for meat.


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## Brandy456 (Jun 25, 2009)

I ment to write most.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jun 25, 2009)

*Numbat wrote: *


> *irishbunny wrote: *
> 
> 
> > I don't have a problem with it as long as the rabbits are kept and killed humanely, it would be hypocritical of me to say I do have a problem with it when I eat meat myself.
> ...


Agreed. Animals can be meat animals without being mistreated. I'm fine with the use of animals for meat, I just want them to be treated humanely as possible.


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## TinysMom (Jun 25, 2009)

*Mrs. PBJ wrote: *


> I think this is a sore subject on this board.
> It may be removed by a mod.
> 
> We are not suposed to talk about this sort of thing.


I don't see a problem with this discussion (personally) - since it is in off-topic and there are no inflamatory remarks thus far.

We don't discuss meat breeding in the rabbitry area and we don't go into the specifics of it....but so far I think this discussion has helped people understand a bit more about the topic.

However - that's just my opinion.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Jun 25, 2009)

*Mrs. PBJ wrote: *


> I think this is a sore subject on this board.
> It may be removed by a mod.
> 
> We are not suposed to talk about this sort of thing.



I agree. I do believe we are not supposed to discuss this here as well all are pet bunny owners. I think that this will be removed by a mod, too.

Emily


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## JimD (Jun 25, 2009)

*TinysMom wrote: *


> *Mrs. PBJ wrote: *
> 
> 
> > I think this is a sore subject on this board.
> ...



I'm in agreement with your opinion.

And it's definitely a subject that can tend to be sensitive to some members.

Conversation about it is helpful to understand the entire existence of rabbit for us, but should remain more informational ...andavoid theopinionated.

:twocents


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## Mrs. PBJ (Jun 25, 2009)

That fine thats it is aloud I have sean a few pretty steaming things on the matter.

I think the same thing I eat cows and chickens and pigs. 
There are meat rabbits and there are pet rabbits. And there are pet meat rabbits that the way it was intended. 

Thank for the clarification on the matter mods


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## Happi Bun (Jun 25, 2009)

I personally would prefer discussion of meat rabbits to not be allowed, why? Because this forum is pet orientated. I accept rabbits are used for meat and that people eat them. That's not my problem. I come to forums like this to talk about my pet rabbits, learn more about them and see other people's buns. I don't believe it's the proper place for discussion of rabbit's being used for food. Just like I wouldn't want to see snake owners talking about raising rabbits to feed to their reptiles.

:hiding:


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## Maureen Las (Jun 25, 2009)

*okiron wrote: *


> There are people horrified that you eat pigs and cows as much as you are horrified with them eating rabbits.
> 
> Rabbits can be pets or food. You have to respect that. I would have no issues keeping some rabbits as pets while breeding others for food. I plan to do so with chickens, ducks and cows anyway.



This truly is life. All different cultures have all different customs. We do not think twice about chicken or beef in the US , however ,they are animals also with feelings . We are a rabbit website and if there are rabbits out there being bred for meat then as a rabbit lover website we want those rabbits to have a humane life while they are alive. That is the noblest thing that we can do and that is to care for rabbits in every way whatever they are bred for pet or food or show in a humane way. 

we are not here to cast stones at others or disparage anyones lifestyle. 

We are here to make sure tha all rabbits have a humane life while they are here on earth with us.


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## BlueGiants (Jun 25, 2009)

If you disagree with a topic being discussed in the Rabbitry section, you can avoid it. Not all the breeders breed for meat. But we can offer advice or help to anyone with rabbits and possibly make the rabbits life better and more comfortable. 
Kudos to anyone for not eating meat. But a lot of people still do. And any animal, regardless of purpose, deserves to be properly cared for and comfortably raised. Our food chain would be healthier and better for us if we cared more for how the animals are kept.


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## Happi Bun (Jun 25, 2009)

I guess my main problem of allowing meat breeders to post openly on RO is because I don't see how they could be treated humanely. The USDA classifies them as Poultry. It's no secret the vast majority of poultry are treated horribly. Tiny cages with many animals crammed inside and lack of veterinary care when needed because it makes more sense in the 'business mind' to just dispose of them. They never see the light of day, the vast majority are factory farmed.


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## BlueGiants (Jun 26, 2009)

A lot of people feel very strongly about treating their "farm" animals as humanely as possible. Happy animals tend to be healthier, require little or no antibiotics or drugs and are better for us. Taking better care of them benefits everyone.


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## TinysMom (Jun 26, 2009)

I used to be on a meat breeders board before coming here and I have got to say that many meat breeders try to give their "stock" as good a life as possible and often are very educated on medical issues so that their animals aren't mistreated.

One thing I like about this forum is that we do try to allow everyone to have their opinion and voice it as long as they are respectful of others who disagree.


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## JimD (Jun 26, 2009)

*TinysMom wrote: *


> One thing I like about this forum is that we do try to allow everyone to have their opinion and voice it as long as they are respectful of others who disagree.



Agreeing to disagree. 

And there's no way to measure the amount of knowledge gained about care and treatment from the breeders on this forum.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jun 26, 2009)

*Happi Bun wrote: *


> I guess my main problem of allowing meat breeders to post openly on RO is because I don't see how they could be treated humanely. The USDA classifies them as Poultry. It's no secret the vast majority of poultry are treated horribly. Tiny cages with many animals crammed inside and lack of veterinary care when needed because it makes more sense in the 'business mind' to just dispose of them. They never see the light of day, the vast majority are factory farmed.



You have to realize, though, that rabbits are not farmed as commonly as poultry. Many and most breeders who breed for market rabbits are doing so for their own private use or for the local market. They are not as in demand as poultry, which is internationally the #1 imported and exported meat. The treatment of poultry is not so much even determined by a mind on money, but rather just trying to feed the demand for it! That doesn't justify bad treatment, but my point is...

Rabbits are not farmed in the same way as poultry. Even large rabbitries are generally very humane in their treatment, though I'm sure there are inhumane ones, just like anything. Genetically, rabbits are more sound and able to live comfortably in wire cages so as long as they get a proper diet and are processed humanely, they are hardly in the same uncomfort as poultry is in the U.S.

Beyond that, rabbit breeders are generally very knowledgable about the care of rabbits. Very few vets know as much as a reputable breeder does, so rabbits are cared for very well inthat breeding situation. In fact, in most cases, rabbit breeders try to avoid vets becausethey're so aware of how ignorant a lot ofvets are to proper care of rabbits.So yes, humane treatment is possible...and even common in the rabbit world.


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## Brandy456 (Jun 26, 2009)

*Happi Bun wrote: *


> I guess my main problem of allowing meat breeders to post openly on RO is because I don't see how they could be treated humanely. The USDA classifies them as Poultry. It's no secret the vast majority of poultry are treated horribly. Tiny cages with many animals crammed inside and lack of veterinary care when needed because it makes more sense in the 'business mind' to just dispose of them. They never see the light of day, the vast majority are factory farmed.


No one here said they were breeding buns' for meat. Thus, they are not posting openly. Even if there were meat breeders lurking the site, don't you think that them comming here is for a reason. Wether it be to find info about how buns' live comfterbly or whatever, if their here then their here for a reason and someone who didnt care about the well being of the animal surely wouldn't be on a forum dedicated to it.


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## NorthernAutumn (Jun 26, 2009)

*Brandy456 wrote: *


> No one here said they were breeding buns' for meat. Thus, they are not posting openly. Even if there were meat breeders lurking the site, don't you think that them comming here is for a reason? Wether it be to find info about how buns' live comfterbly or whatever, if their here then their here for a reason and someone who didnt care about the well being of the animal surely wouldn't be on a forum dedicated to it.


Perfectly said.  Couldn't agree more!


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## Happi Bun (Jun 26, 2009)

I'm agreeing to disagree...
I will just stay away from threads like these in the future.


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## peppa and georgie (Jun 26, 2009)

Oh gosh i have only just got back on here i didnt expect to cause so much chat. Sorry you are prob right it is not a good topic of conversation i just wanted to tell someone as i was a bit surprised on the other forum as like happy buni i just want nice fluffy talk or helpfull hints and concern etc. But also it is nice to see that people can be polite and not rude when expressing their opinions. I think i will do the same and try to avoid the meat discussions if i can. I was just a bit shocked by the blatancy on the other forum as was not expecting to see it xx Hope no one has been caused any offense by this thread xx


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## anneq (Jun 26, 2009)

*OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *


> *Happi Bun wrote: *
> 
> 
> > I guess my main problem of allowing meat breeders to post openly on RO is because I don't see how they could be treated humanely. The USDA classifies them as Poultry. It's no secret the vast majority of poultry are treated horribly. Tiny cages with many animals crammed inside and lack of veterinary care when needed because it makes more sense in the 'business mind' to just dispose of them. They never see the light of day, the vast majority are factory farmed.
> ...


Well put, ORR. I believe responsible breeders do what is best for their stock, whether that be show or meat.


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## Flashy (Jun 26, 2009)

I have to be honest, in my opinion, if the rabbit has a decent life, and a humane death, then what happens after its death (be it buried, cremated, eaten, stuffed) is far less relevant, in my eyes. And that is ONLY my opinion.

I think Brandy has wise words about this, in terms of if they are here they are here because they want to better the lives of their buns, and that's the same as any of us.

I can see why it would offend some people, but personally, I just focus on the life and death of the rabbit, and if that's all good, then that's the most important thing, in my eyes.


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## irishlops (Jun 26, 2009)

this is going to sound really bad...
butif was in some ones home in malta, and they had rabbit on the menu, heck, ild try it! yes.... i said i would try it.
aslong as the rabbits were breed, rasised annd killed humanley im fine with it. aswell as the doe who gave birth to them was in good breeding standard. like, i would not eat caramel and eyore. one friend, breed rabbits, about 50 to eat. she said theyw ere saw as food, but were in just as good standards as pet ones. and were humanly killed. and she showed me them
for some reason i think i made a few enimes. 
ps. i dont want to hear all that *%$Â£"!
about if you love animals, why do you eat hem.
i respect your oppiens and stuff, so dont force or make others feel guilety!
no offence


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## Flashy (Jun 26, 2009)

^Don't be too quick to get defensive Elena, I don't see why you would make any enemies because of that. That's a fair response and an honest response, and just your opinion, you're not trying to put it on anyone else.


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## irishlops (Jun 26, 2009)

well, bad day, if you were in my shoes to day, you might see im being polite in my mood! lol. i was i bit befensive.. i guess.
thanks


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## Flashy (Jun 26, 2009)

Hope you're ok x


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## irishlops (Jun 26, 2009)

ha, i dont want to take over the thread! lol.
thanks for the x!:big kiss:


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## peppa and georgie (Jun 26, 2009)

I dont eat meat but i see no problem in other people eating meat that is up to them, it is only my choice not to.
I dont think people should feel guilty either, i get more harrasment from people when i say i am vegetarian than meat eaters seem to as everyone assumes i am going to attack their choice and starts going on about how i shouldnt wear leather shoes if i dont eat meat etc.
Everyone is entitled to their choice, i was just surprised to hear about it in the context of the pet chat, one minute we were merrily chatting about our cats and rabbits health next someone is going on about how they are going to breed rabbits to feed to their cats to make them more healthy, and how they currently give the cats squirrel carcus, and i was just a bit shocked as everyone was like hey yeh cool.
I wasnt expecting it in that environment if you get me.
Personally speaking i dont think i could cuddle one bun in my living room and say hi to the others knowing i was going to chop them up for the cat to eat, but that is just me, i would find it hard to look them in the eye. I have no idea about how rabbits are humanely killed, and i can see that it is mainly important that they have a happy and healthy life, although it would be one cut short x 
Like if you left someone else in charge and instructed them to do the deed and kill the rabbits for the cat to eat, you would be horrified if they went to the wrong cage and got your pet but to an unrelated person they would not see the difference and would not have done anything wrong xx I am probably not making any sense now but i know what i mean.


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## irishlops (Jun 26, 2009)

i sort of know as well what you mean. im so colpicated i dont understand my self.. but i know where you are coming from. 
say what you said might/could happen etc.. so.. i would be sad and tearful. i have gotten over the deaths of 4 rabbits. in a quickish time. it does not stop me from missing them.
also, pets... they have bonded. you know them, attached.
vut say the meat ones. hey they are taken care of. petted and stuff, exercise etc. but you would not mind to much if it was killed and ated


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## BlueGiants (Jun 26, 2009)

*peppa and georgie wrote: *


> I dont eat meat but i see no problem in other people eating meat that is up to them, it is only my choice not to.
> I dont think people should feel guilty either, i get more harrasment from people when i say i am vegetarian than meat eaters seem to as everyone assumes i am going to attack their choice and starts going on about how i shouldnt wear leather shoes if i dont eat meat etc.
> Everyone is entitled to their choice, i was just surprised to hear about it in the context of the pet chat, one minute we were merrily chatting about our cats and rabbits health next someone is going on about how they are going to breed rabbits to feed to their cats to make them more healthy, and how they currently give the cats squirrel carcus, and i was just a bit shocked as everyone was like hey yeh cool.
> I wasnt expecting it in that environment if you get me.
> ...



I perfectly understand what you are saying. AndI respect the choices you have made for yourself, and the fact that you respect others. 

The bottom line here is the care given to the rabbit. And if anyone comes here looking for help and advice, we will try to help them regardless of their intent for the rabbit. Everyone benefits from healthier rabbits, especially the rabbits.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Jun 27, 2009)

*OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *


> You have to realize, though, that rabbits are not farmed as commonly as poultry. Many and most breeders who breed for market rabbits are doing so for their own private use or for the local market. They are not as in demand as poultry, which is internationally the #1 imported and exported meat. The treatment of poultry is not so much even determined by a mind on money, but rather just trying to feed the demand for it! That doesn't justify bad treatment, but my point is...
> 
> Rabbits are not farmed in the same way as poultry. Even large rabbitries are generally very humane in their treatment, though I'm sure there are inhumane ones, just like anything. Genetically, rabbits are more sound and able to live comfortably in wire cages so as long as they get a proper diet and are processed humanely, they are hardly in the same uncomfort as poultry is in the U.S.
> 
> Beyond that, rabbit breeders are generally very knowledgable about the care of rabbits. Very few vets know as much as a reputable breeder does, so rabbits are cared for very well inthat breeding situation. In fact, in most cases, rabbit breeders try to avoid vets becausethey're so aware of how ignorant a lot ofvets are to proper care of rabbits.So yes, humane treatment is possible...and even common in the rabbit world.



I agree with OakRidge. Especially the part about rabbit breeders treating their rabbts with home (and humane) remedies. I've done it before, with the help of my 4-H leader who is a great breeder; and the treated rabbits have come out of it healthy; possibly a lot easier than if a vet had given the treatment, etc. She knows a lot of stuff. She breeds & raises rabbits for meat too. 

While I don't tell breeders who breed for meat that it's wrong, I certainly wouldn't ever do it myself, nor will I ever eat rabbit as long as I own/breed them. Now, if I had a cow, I would probably still eat cow, but I don't know if that would change when I actually owned one or not. 
The point is, I see cows as food, and pets. I don't see rabbits as food. I just see them as pets. And while I know rabbits were use for meat for their first purposes, and so were all other animals, I just wouldn't be able to eat rabbit. 

Emily


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## Saudade (Jun 28, 2009)

I don't really like rabbit it's a bit too tough, but a couple people have put me on to some good recipes lately.


(Comments here Removed by Mod....)



We're an apex predator... Nothing wrong with wanting to kill and eat those things below us.


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## BlueGiants (Jun 28, 2009)

I have deleted comments that are insulting to others and the personal choices that they have made. There is no need for deliberate baiting and trolling for arguments - This has remained a legitimate and educational discussion up until now.


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## Bunnymom,K (Jun 30, 2009)

I can see and understand that the subject of rabbits for meat is a very sensitive one. I would like to say that many people who raise rabbits for food _(I am not referring to commercial breeders)_ also have rabbits for pets. The rabbits that are raised for food are usually very well cared for, they are given good food and loving attention very similar to a pet rabbit- just because an animal will serve the purpose of providing sustenance of another does not make them less worthy of quality of life. 
I have personally met more people whose rabbits that are being raised for meat are treated better than many pet rabbits. I think education is critical when you own animals- no matter what species or what purpose they serve.


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## Happi Bun (Jun 30, 2009)

Since this thread is about education...

Rabbit's are not farmed as commonly as poultry, really? Because each year over 2 million are killed in slaughter houses in the US. They are also not protected by the humane methods of slaughter act.

http://www.rabbitproduction.com/

(Note: This video does NOT show rabbits being processed or killed, just how they are kept in one US mill)

[flash=320,256]http://www.youtube.com/v/Gcx2V-2nvTs[/flash]


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## irishbunny (Jun 30, 2009)

I saw that before and it is so sad, glad we don't have anything like that here


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## NorthernAutumn (Jun 30, 2009)

*Happi Bun wrote: *


> Since this thread is about education...
> 
> Rabbit's are not farmed as commonly as poultry, really? Because each year over 2 million are killed in slaughter houses in the US. They are also not protected by the humane methods of slaughter act.
> 
> ...


Erika, according to the US Dept. of Agriculture, *9.1 billion* chickens are slaughtered annually, not even counting other birds.

Here's that report: http://usda.mannlib.cornell.edu/usda/current/PoulSlauSu/PoulSlauSu-02-25-2009.pdf

So no, rabbits are not farmed as commonly as poultry.

As for the video, it is (as you said) of a single mill. I promise you, if I were attempting to get people's attention, I would pick the filthiest, most inhumane operation I could find to tape... certainly got my attention.
I can't think of very many people who would not meet caging and hygiene standards in their housing operations.

However, I do agree strongly that all processing of commercial animals must be standardized and performed using federal guidelines that have been designed by organizations with a mind to humane dispatch. 

This will help ensure that those persons who are not treating their stock animals properly will be subject to investigation and penalty.

All the more reason to write your congress representative. I think you could really support humane legislation with your passionate letters!


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## Happi Bun (Jun 30, 2009)

I should have worded it better. Obviously Poultry are slaughtered far more because of the HUGE demand, however, I was getting the impression reading others posts that rabbit's being raised as meat is some small operation. It's not. Also, the fact they are slaughtered less than Poultry seems irrelevant, the fact Poultry are allowed to be kept in horrible, cramped conditions is.

With rabbits being classed as poultry and not protected under the humane methods of slaughter act, I find it hard to believe other slaughter houses are regulated and maintained much better. Remember, that video was taken from one of the leading rabbit meat farms in CA. If the people supposed to be keeping an eye on them obviously weren't doing their jobs, what makes you think they are doing better at other places?

Perhaps I just have far less faith in mankind and their ability to pick humane treatment over money and convenience.


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## NorthernAutumn (Jun 30, 2009)

I hope you take the opportunity to get involved in their lobby efforts; they seem like a balanced group, with an eye towards legislating humane treatment at every step of the way. 

It's great that you are right there in California where you can make a difference in your state 
http://www.rabbitproduction.com/Create_Change.html


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## Happi Bun (Jun 30, 2009)

Oh believe me, I will be.


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## pinksalamander (Jul 1, 2009)

To be honest I see no problem with it, I'm not a vegetarian. A rabbit is no better than a sheep or a pig or a cow which I eat almost all the time.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jul 1, 2009)

*Happi Bun wrote: *


> I should have worded it better. Obviously Poultry are slaughtered far more because of the HUGE demand, however, I was getting the impression reading others posts that rabbit's being raised as meat is some small operation. It's not. Also, the fact they are slaughtered less than Poultry seems irrelevant, the fact Poultry are allowed to be kept in horrible, cramped conditions is.
> 
> With rabbits being classed as poultry and not protected under the humane methods of slaughter act, I find it hard to believe other slaughter houses are regulated and maintained much better. Remember, that video was taken from one of the leading rabbit meat farms in CA. If the people supposed to be keeping an eye on them obviously weren't doing their jobs, what makes you think they are doing better at other places?
> 
> Perhaps I just have far less faith in mankind and their ability to pick humane treatment over money and convenience.



First of all, I just have to say that humane treatment is not picked over money or convenience. In the poultry industry, there is so much demand that farmers simply cannot meet the demand by raising chickens in big grass fields with tons of room to run and play. It's not that they're more interested in money, it's that they would not be making money at all, they're making so little already. So the only way to control that is to spay and neuter people, basically. And that's a whole other issue.I just want to make it clear, though, that people are not maliciously choosing small living quarters as a convenience for themselves, there is really no other choice.

*"I was getting the impression reading others posts that rabbit's being raised as meat is some small operation. It's not."*

Secondly, meat rabbits ARE a small operation, on the whole. There are a number of commercial rabbitries though. Again, there have to be to meet demand. But a larger number of market rabbits are privately raised and owned for personal consumption. As made obvious by now, not as many people consume rabbit so the market for them is not as huge. And because the industry is so small, rabbit costs a lot to eat unless you raise it yourself. So in that sense, the industry does help a lot of rabbits to have a better life.

Those who choose to raise their own market rabbits often raise them on the ground in colonies, which gives them some room to roam and grass to eat. Not all do, but my point is just that meat rabbits can hardly be classified in the same context as poultry. They're raised a lot differently, marketed a lot differently, etc.

The whole reason the demand for chicken is so huge is because the meat is so inexpensive. Rabbit is not.


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## BethM (Jul 1, 2009)

*OakRidgeRabbits wrot*


> First of all, I just have to say that humane treatment is not picked over money or convenience. In the poultry industry, there is so much demand that farmers simply cannot meet the demand by raising chickens in big grass fields with tons of room to run and play. It's not that they're more interested in money, it's that they would not be making money at all, they're making so little already.
> 
> 
> 
> The whole reason the demand for chicken is so huge is because the meat is so inexpensive. Rabbit is not.


If chickens were raised in grassy fields, as I personally believe they should be, the meat would be more expensive, so there would be less demand. Problem solved. 


I am not a vegetarian, but I do try to eat meat only one or two meals a week. I believe this is healthier for my body, as well as the planet. There are plant-based protein sources, but on the whole, Americans consume way more protein than is necessary. We somehow have this notion that we have to have protein at every meal, or we'll become unhealthy, which is not true at all. There is no reason animals should be treated inhumanely, just so people can get cheap food. 
I was raised eating meat, and I think it tastes good. I feel guilty every time I eat it, though, so I try to keep my consumption at a minimum. My husband is a devoted meat-eater, so it's often difficult in my house.

I am also trying not to buy anything made of leather. I think it's gross to wear or sit on the skin of a dead animal. Yuck. Plus, I think it smells disgusting.

I am very particular about the meat I do eat. I will eat ground beef, steak, bacon, chicken or turkey breast, and an occasional bit of ham. I do like many kinds of fish.
Growing up, I lived with my grandparents, and my grandpa would often go hunting. I was once given a rabbit tail to play with, and was delighted until my mom told me what it was. I threw up. I never liked the flavor of any wild game, including rabbit, duck, goose, pigeon, quail, pheasant, and deer. I have memories of my grandpa cleaning game in the garage or the back yard. I will never eat any of those animals again, I would prefer to go hungry.
To me, rabbits are pets, never food. I will not patronize restaurants that serve rabbit. I do realize that some people view rabbits as food, just as some people view cats, dogs, guinea pigs, etc. as food. But I do not.

I get really upset when people criticize my choice to not eat much meat. I don't go around insulting people for their food choices, even if I don't personally approve of their choices. I don't understand why meat-eaters feel so threatened and angry by people who choose not to eat meat. I am not infringing on anyone else's rights, I am not unpatriotic, I just don't eat a lot of meat.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jul 1, 2009)

*If chickens were raised in grassy fields, as I personally believe they should be, the meat would be more expensive, so there would be less demand. Problem solved.* 

Humans do need some protein in their diets and as omnivores, meat is good for us. There isn't really any denying that. So just the fact that there are so many people and chicken is cheap...there will be demand for it. What seems like a quick fix is not practical, based not only on the current state of the economy but also on the amount of people who consume meat. I don't think any of us want animals to be treated inhumanely, but there is no quick fix.

*I get really upset when people criticize my choice to not eat much meat. I don't go around insulting people for their food choices, even if I don't personally approve of their choices. I don't understand why meat-eaters feel so threatened and angry by people who choose not to eat meat. I am not infringing on anyone else's rights, I am not unpatriotic, I just don't eat a lot of meat.*

I'm confused as to where you got the idea that others were criticizing you for your choice. I am indifferent as to people's choices- one may choose whether or not to eat meat for themselves, that's none of my business. It was my understanding that this topic was not about those who choose to eat meat and those who do not. The topic was based around a discussion of the way meat animals are raised and culled. I think the general population is misinformed about some areas of popular agriculture. I don't blame anyone for this because the media really warps the truth around, as was already mentioned about the PETA video. My goal was to educate others on _why _things happened the way they do. Many people seem to believe that those involved in agriculture are cruel and heartless and that they choose money over the animal's comfort. In reality, farmers make so little that they have no other choice when trying to meet demands. I just wanted to help people understand that it is not an individual's choice about how animals are treated, there are things a lot bigger than us that determine that.


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## NorthernAutumn (Jul 1, 2009)

I should rephrase the point:

Corporations are driven to process chicken at a rate to meet consumer demand, at a price that allows them to stay in business. Without a cheap supply of protein, we can't sustain the North American population readily. 

Sadly, a veg diet is inaccessible for many poorer families: 

> Too few people are willing to do the physical labour to harvest veg, thus driving the price per worker up

> Too little arable land left... many cities are sitting on the best land available.

> Fields are in high-value cereal and cash crops. Corn is now being fed to cows and processed to make oil, rather than fed to people (cause we're too "special" and too rich to eat a corn based diet).

Effectively, the only thing that will decrease consumption of meat is a widespread cultural change.
If demand for poultry is lessened, there is less pressure to engage in mass production. 
If people were willing to pay an appropriate price for their veg and meat, more independant farmers would be in business.

*Support your local farmer's markets. Support the butcher. Support the baker.* That's the best way to make independent farming sustainable; they are the only ones who can have gallivanting chickens . The more you support the farmers, the more ideal the situation of their livestock. 

People who consume meat regularly tend to feel very harassed by "holier than thou" attitudes displayed by some vegetarians. It's always a challenging situation.

Blame it partly on North American culture, which has been so blessed for so long with an abundance of food! 

As food grows more scarce in the world, a more vegetarian diet will become necessary. Vast droughts will sweep across continents, and vegetable crops will fail; starvation will ensue. Overpopulation is not a pretty future. 

(Personally, I struggle deeply with the consumption of fish. The oceans are almost empty... I try very hard not to eat any fish that is wild-caught. Inland aquaculture only.)


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jul 1, 2009)

*NorthernAutumn wrote: *


> *Support your local farmer's markets. Support the butcher. Support the baker.* That's the best way to make independent farming sustainable; they are the only ones who can have gallivanting chickens . The more you support the farmers, the more ideal the situation of their livestock.


Agreed! Great point!

I also love the picture in my mind of gallivanting chickens. LOL!


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## Happi Bun (Jul 2, 2009)

I agree completely with supporting your local farmers markets and butchers. A discussion was being held on a Guinea Pig Forum about ways to still enjoy meat without supporting the cruel treatment animals face in factory farms. One solution was buying meat from your local butcher and even asking to visit which farm their meat comes from if you aren't completely satisfied they are being kept humanely.

These days you can even buy meat at your grocery store that is certified humane. If you are interested in learning more, here is their website.

http://www.certifiedhumane.org/

I would like to point out the video I posted is not PETA related, I do not agree with most of things PETA does. While I'm sure they wanted to show the worst conditions possibly, I don't believe that should make the video have less meaning.



> my point is just that meat rabbits can hardly be classified in the same context as poultry. They're raised a lot differently, marketed a lot differently, etc


In numbers, no. The USDA sure seems to think they are similar to poultry since they have them listed as such. There is no regulation on how they are slaughtered or the methods used because (since they are listed as poultry) they are not protected under the humane methods of slaughter act. So forgive me in not believing claims that the rabbit meat industry is all about animal welfare.



> I don't think any of us want animals to be treated inhumanely, but there is no quick fix.


Do you mean mankind in general or us here personally on RO? I honestly find it sad that "Humane methods of slaughter act" and "Animal welfare act" had to even be created. People have to have constant reminders that if they are not humane to the animals, their are consequences. Yet even with these acts in place, countless animals are abused, beaten and neglected everyday. 

Through my work in volunteering and supporting animal rescues, I have been awakened to just how much malicious cruelty there is towards animals in this word.


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## BethM (Jul 2, 2009)

*OakRidgeRabbits wrote:*


> Humans do need some protein in their diets and as omnivores, meat is good for us. There isn't really any denying that. So just the fact that there are so many people and chicken is cheap...there will be demand for it.
> 
> 
> *I didn't say we don't need any protein, I said we currently eat MUCH more than we need. I heard somewhere that Americans eat 3-4x what we actually need. There is an incredible hype about getting enough protein, but the fact is we get TOO MUCH.
> ...


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## Brandy456 (Jul 2, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *

I think Brandy has wise words about this, in terms of if they are here they are here because they want to better the lives of their buns, and that's the same as any of us.


:thanks:


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## Flashy (Jul 2, 2009)

You're very welcome


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