# 2 healthy babies...1 deformed baby



## fuzz16 (Jun 18, 2009)

Sara is a proud mommy as of last night to three little kits. 2 of them look like thier gonna look like thier dad Ess, one looks like its gonna be a REW.

Sara jumped around and was playing with all her toys this morning very happily. She nudged my hand this morning when i checked on the babies, all seemed fine until i got to the last baby, who looks like it will be a REW. 

My cameras dead so i cant get pictures but the i can try and explain the problem. Her back legs look fine until you look at the feet, the pads stick out to the sides instead of facing below her like thier supposed to. I know that a lot of bunnies can live with certain deformaties and i may keep her because of it due to being unable to find a home or trust someone enough with her. 

I figure if she canget to her food bowl and drink water she will be ok, correct? i knowshell never walk right, maybe wobble and get towhere she needs...but i was extremely heartbroken at the thought i may have to put her down.


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## mischiwapos.cyra (Jun 18, 2009)

Most breeders would cull her. It may cause extreme discomfort to her later on in life. Just do what your heart tells you to do. And remember think of her situation, and don't just think of what you want. 
-If she does do okay, just be sure that whom ever cares for her doesnt breed her and gets her fixed, just because you dont want that staying in the lines.


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## SilverBirchRabbitry (Jun 19, 2009)

I would say cull her, the poor bunny would most likely have a lot of discomfort. But do what you think :] Maybe you could keep her? So you know she will always be in good hands


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## polly (Jun 19, 2009)

Hard decsion. Personally if I couldnt keep her myself then we would cull her if I felt how you do. Here though I would agree with the others in the long term there could be a lot of pain and we wuld not risk how the rabbit ended up feeling. Ok there are some fab members on this board but not every owner is going to be like that.
Also makes me wonder what breed your buns are and whether the max factor gene is at work there if its a dwarf litter.


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## fuzz16 (Jun 19, 2009)

i think the dad is dutch nethie mix and the mom polish and nethie...not sure though.

im afraid that the baby will be in pain when its older and its best in a just in case scenerio if she were put down...but then again it would kill me to have to put her down...and she couldnt be rehomed. even if it was someone i trusted greatly who was good with rabbits. 

yesterday when i was checking on the babies and feeding sara some fresh carrots and green beans she hopped into the nest and uncovered the babies and kept nudging the little deformed baby...who i beleive the name we have decided on is tanner...i picked up the baby afraid she was pointing out soemthing wrong and she put her paws on my hand and started lickin my fingers. for her, that was an amazing thing cause she was always very stand off-ish...and kinda...humanish saying something. i wont get all weird though and think she understood what ive been thinking about.

pictures soon...just need to put them online


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## fuzz16 (Jun 19, 2009)

Here's the mom, Sara






Dad, Ess


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## tonyshuman (Jun 19, 2009)

It sounds like the baby has splay leg. Bunnies with this condition can survive, but it can be very difficult for them due to decreased mobility. Leaf had a pair of baby splay-legged bunnies that lived for several months.

Another possibility is that you have a peanut aka double dwarf, since both parents are dwarves. The way this works is that it only takes one copy of the dwarving gene to make a dwarf bunny, and when a bunny has 2 copies of it, they are very deformed and don't live very long. This usually shows up as a very small body and disproportionately large head, though, not a leg issue.


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## BlueGiants (Jun 19, 2009)

IS the baby with the deformity a bit smaller than the others? Paddle feet is usually seen in Peanuts, babies that inherit a dwarfing gene from each parent. (And with both parents carrying Nethie, it's a distinct possibility...) If it is a peanut, it probably won't survive. "Double Dwarfing" is usually a fatal flaw.

A photo would help.


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## fuzz16 (Jun 20, 2009)

the baby is actually bigger than all the rest of them, so not a peanut. her head is a bit bigger though.

Here's Tanner.


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## fuzz16 (Jun 20, 2009)

Here's other pictures.

Sara:













the nest:


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## polly (Jun 20, 2009)

Your doe looks like she has our polish your brittania petite through her and your buck looks like a BUB (big ugly buck nethie.

Personally I would cull the baby cruel as it may be its leg is pretty badly twisted  sorry if that sounds nasty but I cant see how that wouldnt cause pain.

edit to add I dont know if its just the pictures but the smoke baby on the left. its eye doesnt look right. It could be that its the way the pic was taken but just wondering does it have a crust over it or have you noticed it with an eye open since its een born even slightly?

If the eye has not been sealed shut when born then 1 its max factor which again explains the leg problem on the white and 2 it will be blind in that eye and the eye will appear milky.its horrible to see a friend of mine had it and didnt realise what it was and puss built up behind the eye putting pressure on it too.

I have also had max factors not so much with leg problems but definately with alien eyes.


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## fuzz16 (Jun 20, 2009)

i didnt think thier eyes should open till they were older, their only 3 days old. and the white stuff, i believe, is fur. i pulled some off tanners eye crease earlier.


my dad is going with me to put tanner down humanely. the vet thats helped us with our kitten is doing it for free. itll be sad for me...but i think its for the best, for me and the rabbit long term.


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## polly (Jun 20, 2009)

I know its hard but I think its the nicest thing to do tbh. hugs tho cause I know its hard.

I would have a good close look at the 2 smoke babies eyes though. if there is any crust or a slightly open eye then again you may need to have it euthanised.  sorry 
and you are right eyes will not open till around 10 days usually but max factors can have alien eyes like the eyelid is not fully formed so the eye is not sealed shut at birth which menas it crusts over if they are left and if you take the crust away the eye itself is milky

gawd sorry I know this isnt easy for you Just if there is a problem the longer its left the more you get attached and the worst it can be


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## fuzz16 (Jun 20, 2009)

ok. im not home right now to check on them, but should i just take a warm rag and wipe thier eyes, see if its crust coming off. 

if i do end up having to put them all down..how will that affect Sara.


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## polly (Jun 20, 2009)

If it has a crust over its eye and you did take it off you would see a milky eye underneath. TBh if you get home and have a good look at both smokes and you see that they are not sealed shut I would just have it PTS However if the baby on the right is ok (I cant see both eyes but you can have babies not showing max factor) then it is fine to stay with mum and grow up however I would not use it for breeding with


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## fuzz16 (Jun 20, 2009)

if the eyes are fully closed but there is a crust on the seam of the eye what could that mean? still infection beneath and a deformity...or could it just not been cleaned off well enough?


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## fuzz16 (Jun 20, 2009)

*polly wrote: *


> your buck looks like a BUB (big ugly buck nethie.




btw....LOL....so you think hes just a badly bred nethie? lol


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## irishbunny (Jun 20, 2009)

Aw sorry about the little baby 

I wouldn't breed the parents again as it will probably repeat itself.


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## Bramblerose (Jun 20, 2009)

I've seen rear foot deformities before, both in rabbits and dogs. I'd call that a 'positional' deformity, something that may correct itself or may not. Its caused by the position they were stuck in while in the womb. I've had puppies whose feet were completely turned in towards each other correct themselves. Babies are very plastic, bones are soft, and activity and time can cause the affected limb to correct itself partially or entirely. That said I would either cull it, or let it live and see what happens out of curiosity and for future reference.


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## Bramblerose (Jun 20, 2009)

I wanted to add that I wouldn't get all freaky about the eyes at this point, just clean them off and go from there. All of the kits look healthy, none are peanuts, nor do I think they are Max Factors. A Big Ugly Buck means only that it does not carry the dwarf gene and therefore is a false dwarf, perfectly normal. When you breed true dwarf to true dwarf you get true dwarfs, false dwarfs and peanuts, when you breed true dwarf to false dwarf you get true and false dwarfs, false dwarf to false dwarf you get only false dwarfs. Does not mean your rabbit is poorly bred. I also do not feel that this foot deformity is genetic.


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## polly (Jun 21, 2009)

Bramble rose is right he is not a bad bred nethie he just doesnt show the dwarfin gene I have had a few of those.

regarding the eye give it a gentle soak with tepid water and check to see if it is sealed underneath.

I just want to add the reason it has made me think max factor is because I went through a spell of having a couple of litters with problems just the same. as has my friend. 
I hope it isnt it was just the shape of the eye in the pictures that led me to think that it could be


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## fuzz16 (Jun 21, 2009)

i went with my roomie yesterday to put down the little white bunny, it was hard to watch...i just held her and she just slipped away. its hard still, but spending more time on farms has made me a bit tougher and have a thats life attitude. 

Polly, the bunny with the eye crust, i cleaned off the crust and bits of fur and the eyes are not sealed all the way. i didnt know how that could effect the baby later on...i realize its a culling offense but im no breeder...what would long term effects be? 

and the other smoke whose the runt seems perfectly fine.


also...Sara is pacing and seems sad, she grunts randomly while moving around her cage. still licks me when i put my hand in the cage but she doesnt seem like herself...can rabbits realize when you take a kit? or when they loose one?


sorry for all the dumb questions/statements.


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## anneq (Jun 21, 2009)

My doe Rosie grunts a lot when we try to pick her up after she's nursed her babies.
I do think a rabbit can sense when her babies are taken away from her, it might be confusing so I would just try to comfort her at this point and maybe pamper her a bit more.
Being a first-time mom can be rough.
..and your questions are'nt dumb.


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## polly (Jun 21, 2009)

Ok I did think it was the max factor gene at work, Fuzz (sorry dont know your name) the baby will be blind in that eye. if you can see in it once the crust is removed you are likely to see that the eye is milky coloured. every time the crust forms it seems to put pressure on the eye as well. If you dont clean it off then puss will build up behind it which is uncomfortable for the kit and causes pain. Again the best thing is to cull it as you can't keep its eye clean 24/7 and even at that my guess would be the eye will always cause the baby problems.

Your runt is fine will be carrying the max factor gene but isn't showing it. As long as it is never bred you should be fine it would ok as a pet.

As for your doe, they can be a bit unsettled but quickly settle back down in a day or 2 the fact she will still have 1 she will be ok with.

I have found even if I have had to cull a full litter my doe is fine by the next day. Its never something I like having to do but after having rabbits with problems I would hate to pass problems onto others imo 


Edited to add: never be sorry about asking questions its the only way to learn


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## fuzz16 (Jun 22, 2009)

i put down the other baby with the eye problem. i showed the body to the mom and she seemed very confused. i went to go bury the baby where we had the other one and when i came back the runt had been torn up bitten and was dead...

so the whole litter is r.i.p.


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## Flashy (Jun 22, 2009)

I'm so sorry. You completely did all the right things, and did the best that you could; that's all anyone can do. What happened to the last baby was a tragedy, and I'm truly sorry for your loss.

Binky Free little babies.

x


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## anneq (Jun 22, 2009)

Oh dear, I'm so sorry for your loss.
That would be very difficult to take.
It sounds like mom was stressed by what was going on.


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## BlueGiants (Jun 22, 2009)

I'm truely sorry to hear you lost the whole litter. You did the right thing with the little white one. I suspectthat level of deformity would have been painful to live with as it matured and started to move around.

And "Max Factor" is a nasty problem to deal with in the Nethie's. I would assume both Sara and Ess carry the gene. I wouldn't let them breed again. (Maybe get Ess neutered ?)

Sara will settle down in a day or so. Her hormones will return to normal. Keep in mind she will be very receptive to breeding again. Keep her away from Ess....

If you do get Ess neutered, he still has to stay away from Sara for 8 weeks. It can take that long for all the hormones to drop.


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## fuzz16 (Jun 22, 2009)

Ess is being fixed soon...its just coming up with the money for it and ive been saving. Sara just plays with the boys since thier balls havnt dropped yet and little mimzy. she kinda keeps to herself though


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## BlueGiants (Jun 22, 2009)

You're doing the right thing... bless you... I know how hard this all is...


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## SweetSassy (Jun 22, 2009)

ray:

:hug2: Sorry for what you've been thru with your babies and bunnies. 

 April


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## fuzz16 (Jun 22, 2009)

thank you everyone. i know everything happens for a reason and maybe she just realized that the babies werent supposed to live. its easier because their newborns, it would have been a lot harder if they were older. 

i am still learning a lot though and hopefully someday i can put the knowledge to better use.


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## polly (Jun 22, 2009)

I am so sorry that happened with the runt  I do think your doe has a bit of Brittania petite through her and they can be very tempremental mama's.

You did the best you could and I know how hard it can be. Hugs for you


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## fuzz16 (Jun 22, 2009)

thank you, and thanks for your help with them


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## polly (Jun 22, 2009)

Its no problem glad I was soem help even though it wasn't what you wanted to hear  I am sorry it wasnt a better outcome for you  
Nethies can be a nightmare to breed with the double dwarf genes, max factor genes and the fact that they get so many pencil kits. There has beena few times it has disheartened me so much I have considered giving them up but I love the breed so much tbh I just dont think I could.


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## Bramblerose (Jun 22, 2009)

Aww I'm so sorry, what a sad situation, my heart goes out to you. I have bred Nethies in the past, they are a tough breed, I don't think I'd ever do it again. So sorry again sweetie.


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