# Not exactly forum policy...yet...but opinions on the forum



## TinysMom (Jun 29, 2010)

First of all - I want y'all to know that I LOVE this area of the forum and our many breeders who post here. I think so many of you are awesome - some of you I wish I could steal babies from (oh Polly....)...

I was talking to someone today (several someones today) about something and I really feel like I need to post it here and share with y'all.

As a moderator - I feel like I rarely ever have to edit stuff here - and I hope that when I do edit stuff I am respectful of you - if I'm not - PLEASE contact me. Ok?

But one thing I've been noticing is that many times opinions are shared on this forum (in all the areas) - but they're shared at times when they are inappropriate.

Y'all have heard me joke about how opinions are like feet- we all have them - and some stink. My husband has an addendum do that which goes "And many times they should be kept covered...".

I'm going to ask IN ADVANCE that when we get people in here who talk about wanting to breed because they want "cute, cuddly rabbits" or they're asking questions about breeding - that we try to address their questions without throwing our opinions at them. In other words - lets use facts that we know (ie. - the best ages for breeding does of certain breeds or how many kits can be in a litter, etc) - and try to keep our opinions out of it.

My concern is that if folks see us commenting in ways that they see as "attacking" another person about having baby bunnies...if they wind up deciding to breed - or if they wind up with an accidental pregnancy - they may not feel comfortable coming to us for help.

So much of our focus needs to be on education...and helping.

I'm sharing this partly because I'm going to be mentoring some young breeders that may be joining soon - and by many of our standards they've done everything wrong. No pedigreed animals - didn't know what they were doing, etc. etc. They're like 12 or 13 or whatever (but they do have the support of their parents).

I would hate to see them come on here - share their experiences - and then leave here because they've been hurt by our "opinions" and how they did things wrong.

I look at some people on here who have come a long way - one person who comes to mind is Misty. We've seen how she came on here with questions and yes - I'm pretty sure sometimes I was pretty rough on her....but she's learning and growing and I keep thinking about her changes and meaning to drop her a pm and say, "you go girl".

I've seen this in some of our other breeders - some of whom I've had a hard time with in the past.

But because they stuck with us - they've learned and they've grown.

So please - I'm going to ask that in the future - even if we want to tear our hair out because person X wants to mix breeds A & D to get purple bunnies with pink polka dots and green stripes .... that we try to keep our emotions out of it...and stick to the facts of how we can help them. Sometimes our job is to help them understand why something won't work - and sometimes it is to help them because even though they are making choices we don't understand - we care about the rabbits.

And with that said - I'm off to get my hard lemonade (its been a hard day here)...and go to bed.

I really do appreciate y'all. I hope you know that. This is just something that has been on my heart for a couple of weeks....and I felt like I HAD to get it out before I go to bed tonight.


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## Icarus (Jun 29, 2010)

In my opinion, there should be an Opinion and Debate board for mature, reasonable discussion of opinions. 


Where do you think those carefully bred, pedigreed, and shown rabbits came from? Certainly not out of thin air :biggrin: Years of carefully mixing, culling, and working towards an ultimate standard...eventually, ta da! A cute bunny sitting in your hutch!

I'm personally planning on a miniature version Flemish Giant. They'll only come in green with purple poka-dots and pink stripes.


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## TinysMom (Jun 29, 2010)

*Icarus wrote: *


> In my opinion, there should be an Opinion and Debate board for mature, reasonable discussion of opinions.
> 
> 
> Where do you think those carefully bred, pedigreed, and shown rabbits came from? Certainly not out of thin air :biggrin: Years of carefully mixing, culling, and working towards an ultimate standard, and that cute bunny sitting in your hutch!
> ...



Oh yeah? 

Well mine are gonna have rex fur, lionhead manes and lop ears...so there!


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## mistyjr (Jun 29, 2010)

Thanks Peg! :hug1 And Yes, I did have made alot of changes. And thanks for helping me the best, And got me on my feet and put my foot down on somebody that drugged me into what a mess that she put me in. You did the right thing to help me out and get out of that mess. You have helped alot. You got me to restart my rabbitry and put me on the right track that I needed to be in. I am trying my best to take care of my rabbits the best that I can ever do and not the person that bring me down. I didnt know hardly anything when I joined, Just that I was a rabbit dumpster for somebody. But not anymore. I had to make the biggest Decisions on my rabbits. I wanted them all but you know its to hard on somebody that haves too many breeds like I did. So I had to Decide which rabbits that I want and dint want and got threaten so many times by somebody. But I knew what is the best to do. And Peg helped me decide what was best for me and not for her. I have learned a lot. :highfive:

So, I agree with this. We need to help out others.. :nod


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## mistyjr (Jun 29, 2010)

And... Thanks for putting my name in your thread.. That sure made my day/night. That made me happy.. :muscleman:


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## Icarus (Jun 29, 2010)

TinysMom wrote:


> *Icarus wrote: *
> 
> 
> > In my opinion, there should be an Opinion and Debate board for mature, reasonable discussion of opinions.
> ...



Oh _yeah_?! WELL...mine are going to have one lop ear, one regular ear, and duck feet!


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## whaleyk98 (Jun 29, 2010)

Well Im working on wings....so top that!:biggrin2:


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## Silver Star Rabbitry (Jun 29, 2010)

Apparently there are a few people that have achieved HAIRLESS LOPS! :shock::faint:
Personally, I am planning on working on lilac and RED Silver Martens as soon as I get enough room.

Emily

Silver Star Rabbitry 
Raising and Showing Quality Silver Martens in North Louisiana

http://silverstarsilvermartens.webs.com/
http://silverstarrabbitry.blogspot.com/

[email protected]


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## lelanatty (Jun 29, 2010)

Is there not a way to express our own opinions without seeming as if we are attacking another person's decisions about what to do with their rabbits?


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## dixonsrabbitry1 (Jun 29, 2010)

Red silver martin sounds like it would be pretty.

I have been helping misty too. I had her get in touch with chia rabbitry. That lady has of the best jersey whoolies in the state of Michigan. Some of the best I have ever seen. Some go into Brian Hartzel's lines(*sniff). i might be meeting her for the first time at cal bra hill. If so, I may hook her up with one of the top dutch breeders in the state. Great guy. Loves his rabbits. Taught me a lot on grooming, even though I have never raised dutch. he is real particular on where his rabbits go though. She seems really nice. I can't wait to meet her. I hope her rabbits do well at the cal bra hill show in 2 weeks.

I agree with everything you have said tiny's mom. I haven't had any issues with section of the forum either. Everyone here is pretty nice. Its best to be helpful to new breeders, because we have all started out that way.


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## pamnock (Jun 29, 2010)

*Silver Star Rabbitry wrote: *


> RED Silver Martens as soon as I get enough room.
> 
> Emily
> 
> ...



Sorry - NOT genetically possible for acouple reasons . . . 

1. The marten gene (chin) removes all red from the coat. 

2. Red is made with the dominant agouti gene while silver marten is a tan pattern (a rabbit can't be both agouti and tan pattern in phenotype).

Orange (or a poor red) is the closest thing you can get to what you envision as a red silver marten.


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## lelanatty (Jun 29, 2010)

Maybe she meant rabbits with silver marten type but in the color red. 

And what do you call a chinchilla colored rabbit if it isn't a silver marten chestnut, technically shouldn't it belong in both groups?


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## pamnock (Jun 29, 2010)

*lelanatty wrote: *


> Maybe she meant rabbits with silver marten type but in the color red.
> 
> And what do you call a chinchilla colored rabbit if it isn't a silver marten chestnut, technically shouldn't it belong in both groups?



Chinchilla is an agouti variety, not a tan pattern like the silver marten. Agoutis are one variety group, tan patterns are another. The chinchilla doesn't fit into both.

The chinchilla gene combined with the tan pattern gene produces the silver marten color.

The Silver Marten breed is a commercial body type - we already have commercial red colored rabbits.


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## TinysMom (Jun 29, 2010)

*lelanatty wrote: *


> Is there not a way to express our own opinions without seeming as if we are attacking another person's decisions about what to do with their rabbits?


I'm sure there must be - but we've had a hard time finding it in the past.

Let me give an example of how it can be done...

WRONG WAY:

"Don't you know that flemish with duck feet is just WRONG? IT goes against nature and you should never try for that. I can't believe how stupid you are. We don't need stupid people like that on here."


RIGHT WAY:

"I think there would be too many problems trying to get a flemish giant with duck feet. I understand they struggle with sore hocks sometimes - but wouldn't this cause them to have even more problems in getting around? And could the duck feet support the weight that a flemish giant can get to? And what about the mom giving birth - is there a chance she'll chew off the few when cleaning the baby because they are so different?

I'm just not so sure that your idea is a wise one. You might want to stick to regular flemish giants."



See what I mean - one attacks the person and their choices - calling them stupid. Another one questions them based upon facts and tries to reason with them and offer suggestions.

My other concern is that we frequently see the "mob mentality" creep up in this forum. Its easy to go "aha...got him/her" and urge each other on with "yeah...that" and "Way to go" until the person feels picked on.

A large part of this forum is education - especially in the rabbitry area. We want to educate people - but if they have stated outright "I AM GOING TO DO THIS..." then we need to focus on the good of the rabbits with that decision. Like how to know when to put in the nestbox...etc.etc.

I hope I'm making sense.


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## lelanatty (Jun 29, 2010)

*TinysMom wrote: *


> *lelanatty wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Is there not a way to express our own opinions without seeming as if we are attacking another person's decisions about what to do with their rabbits?
> ...


I understand what you're saying perfectly. I feel fortunate to not have seen any posts that were offering criticism the wrong way yet.


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## TinysMom (Jun 29, 2010)

I need to add one other thing here....

Opinions are normally welcome in this forum - all or most of it.

However, the "Rescue Me" section for rehoming/rescuing rabbits and the "Rabbitry" area frequently become places where more moderation has to take place because people get angry at the choices others are making either to rehome a rabbit or to breed a rabbit.

The thing is - we (the forum as a whole) - are NOT the "RABBIT POLICE". We can not tell someone what to do or make them do (or NOT do) what we think is right or wrong.

If they say, "I am going to..." and we start expressing our opinions as judgments - this is where the conflicts on the forum can begin. 

We can offer suggestions that are helpful and proactive - but when we start judging them and telling them how wrong they are - then its time for moderators to step in and it can be tough. 

The thing is - there have been cases of people in the past who were going through rough times who probably could have used help - but were afraid to post publicly lest they get treated like someone else who was doing the same thing.

Once a heated discussion gets going that is attacking a person's belief/choices - it takes hours of time of moderators working together to keep things calm and working well.

So I'm trying - in advance - to help y'all know about this and understand why opinions are welcome - most of the time - but how I ask that you treat them in some situations in the forum.


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## mistyjr (Jun 29, 2010)

*dixonsrabbitry1 wrote: *


> Red silver martin sounds like it would be pretty.
> 
> I have been helping misty too. I had her get in touch with chia rabbitry. That lady has of the best jersey whoolies in the state of Michigan. Some of the best I have ever seen. Some go into Brian Hartzel's lines(*sniff). i might be meeting her for the first time at cal bra hill. If so, I may hook her up with one of the top dutch breeders in the state. Great guy. Loves his rabbits. Taught me a lot on grooming, even though I have never raised dutch. he is real particular on where his rabbits go though. She seems really nice. I can't wait to meet her. I hope her rabbits do well at the cal bra hill show in 2 weeks.
> 
> I agree with everything you have said tiny's mom. I haven't had any issues with section of the forum either. Everyone here is pretty nice. Its best to be helpful to new breeders, because we have all started out that way.


Yes, You have helped me out too. And Thank you for that.. I needed to talk to another Wooly Breeder and help me out on mine. And Thanks for it. There is just a few that helped me out.. Dixonrabbitry, Peg, Pam and Briana, and the lady that I been talking to Facebook. 

Thanks,


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## dixonsrabbitry1 (Jun 29, 2010)

*mistyjr wrote: *


> Yes, You have helped me out too. And Thank you for that.. I needed to talk to another Wooly Breeder and help me out on mine. And Thanks for it. There is just a few that helped me out.. Dixonrabbitry, Peg, Pam and Briana, and the lady that I been talking to Facebook.
> 
> Thanks,


I will point her out to you if she goes to cal bra hill. She is a really nice lady. Loves her woolies. If you keep going to shows, she will help out a lot. I think I met her when I sold her daughter one of the best florida whites I have ever bred. that little doe was outstanding. She won every time they showed her. I have been show buddies with both of them ever since then. 

Not to get too off topic here. LOL @ flemish with duck feet. ;P


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## mistyjr (Jun 29, 2010)

*dixonsrabbitry1 wrote: *


> *mistyjr wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Yes, You have helped me out too. And Thank you for that.. I needed to talk to another Wooly Breeder and help me out on mine. And Thanks for it. There is just a few that helped me out.. Dixonrabbitry, Peg, Pam and Briana, and the lady that I been talking to Facebook.
> ...


Yeah, She seems pretty nice and knows alot. And helped me with alot that I didnt know about.. She is also helping me breed my Wooly at the show for me so I can get a head start on my woolies. And I am glad that somebody is out there to help me out and not somebody that brung me down... But I am hoping that there will be a good LH breeder there also. So I can see what I need to do also with my LH.. But you seemed nice to my self and have helped me and a nice person to talk too and also its nice to know that somebody that raises rabbits doesnt like that far from me.. :big wink:


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## dixonsrabbitry1 (Jun 29, 2010)

*mistyjr wrote: *


> *dixonsrabbitry1 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *mistyjr wrote: *
> ...


That is realy nice of her to offer to do that to you. If your does takes you won't be disappointed. I have competed with her rabbits for best in group, and best in 4-class before. They are nice rabbits. She will give you pointers on how to improve your stock too, and probably talk your leg off.  

I personally know the show secretaries and a lot of of well known experienced breeders. if you don't find any lion head breeders there, I can ask around for you.


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## mistyjr (Jun 29, 2010)

Yeah!! That would be cool too. She is talking to me about my wooly/mix babies. She wants me to keep a best doe or 2 out of that litter.. Hopefully the 2 Gray babies will be does...:biggrin2:


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## lelanatty (Jun 29, 2010)

*pamnock wrote: *


> Chinchilla is an agouti variety, not a tan pattern like the silver marten. Agoutis are one variety group, tan patterns are another. The chinchilla doesn't fit into both.
> 
> The chinchilla gene combined with the tan pattern gene produces the silver marten color.
> 
> The Silver Marten breed is a commercial body type - we already have commercial red colored rabbits.



Thank you, I have been wondering about this for a long time and am glad to finally find someone ho knows their stuff.

The thing I don't understand abut chinchillas being in the agouti group is that they have no red/yellow rufus factor color anywhere on them and every other agouti variety does. Unless it is simply because of the fur ticking which makes them phenotypically look like agoutis that puts them in that group.


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## dixonsrabbitry1 (Jun 29, 2010)

> > .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You want to hear something really weird, silver martins came from one of the chinchilla breeds.


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## Kadish Tolesa (Jun 29, 2010)

Hi Peg, thanks for your insightful post. We have a pair of JW's that our son will be entering in shows and fairs this year. Although it's just the pair right now, we may be adding one more doe. 

In the past I was told you had to have a substantial amount of bunnies to breed and show them, but everyone has their own method and we'd like to start out small. If my son decides in the future not to show, I'll stop breeding and keep my woolies as pets. I bought from trusted breeders and I think my woolies have potential ! 

I didn't say who they are because of privacy concerns...also I've had people come up to me (back when we raised ND's) and say "Oh, don't buy from them...". I think good and bad points will reveal themselves at the shows. Some breeder's stock has shown to improve over time. As far as our rabbits; I just purchased some good stock so my son can hopefully do well at the show tables. 

I'm grateful to all the breeders who made rabbits like the min-rex and Jersy Wooly to be what they are !


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## Silver Star Rabbitry (Jun 30, 2010)

I didn't realize that red silver marten was not genetically possible. That's too bad.
The Silver Martens originated from the Standard Chinchilla and Tan. They also had Satin mixed in to improve color and shine. 

Emily

Silver Star Rabbitry 
Raising and Showing Quality Silver Martens in North Louisiana

http://silverstarsilvermartens.webs.com/
http://silverstarrabbitry.blogspot.com/

[email protected]


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## Blaze_Amita (Jun 30, 2010)

Though the Flemish with the duck feet sound interesting, to say the least, Peg does have a very strong point. A lady I know, now personally, had come to the forum at some point(*** Byrd- Mcdonald) and that's how she found me. I got her set onto the right track with her "Dwarf 6 month old female bunny" that was more so about 4-5 week old red New Zealand male. but she's been worried about coming back to the forum with other questions for when she can't get ahold of me. She knows she can, easily, she's got my cell number but I told her that posting on the site will still help her if she's got questions as it could take me up to a week to get back into the town she lives in(despite being the next town over)she also didn't want the criticism of fighting to keep her bun now that half the household income was gone due to bad economy-so I've been helping her there as well. I know it keeps me tight on budget as well, but this way she can also keep her bun and not have to rehome the poor thing again. 

I know i've brought oen person to the site behind me, Red Thunder Rabbits, and she doesn't get alot of internet time so she's hardly ever on here, but she comes with questions from my old neighborhood. If everyone can feel welcome we'll all be a much happier person. Like Thumper quoted in Bambi "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say it at all." (Yes I know Bambi was far from realistic, but it was a good quote.)


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## Nela (Jun 30, 2010)

Soooooo... 

If y'all work together then we'll end up with *takes deep breath* green miniature flemish rabbitswith purple polka-dots and pink stripes with rex fur, lionhead manes, duck feet, wings, and they will be available in full lop or one lop ear one reg ear versions? :biggrin2:

Alright alright, on a serious note, I am happy to say that I see a change in the way the forums are moderated. Things are being edited more, taken down sooner, closed, and explained much more than I have seen in the past. Sometimes we may think it sucks that things must be moderated so much, but in the end, it gives a better overall attitude I think. Too often people state opinion as fact, and I think that is where the problem lies most of the time. I personally think this is a positive change. I know the forum policies probably haven't changed at all, but to me it seems like they are being enforced more. That's why I came back myself, to see if it's really headed in the direction RO always stood for.


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## tamsin (Jun 30, 2010)

Excellent post! If you really want to change someone else's opinion or actions, rather than just voice your own, you'll be much more successful if you talk to them politely and use facts, and it creates a much nicer atmosphere for everyone else too.

I'm totally convinced now re the duck feet


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## TinysMom (Jun 30, 2010)

I'm really thinking we need to add green and blue to those colors too somehow.

And on a serious note - I appreciate all of you for understanding what I'm trying to say.

I do have to share a short story.

When I was much younger - we bought a rabbit. It slept in our bathroom because it was winter time - and dad & I would fight over the rabbit on Sunday afternoons as far as who could take a nap with the rabbit. (Looking back - I'm thinking it was a Florida White). 

Then dad made a cage for it outside in the spring and it got away. We waited for a week or so - and I was devastated so my mom and I went to the pet store and got another white bunny. 

My dad was at a garage about 1/2 mile away (across a major road) a few days later...and they said, "Hey...doesn't your kid have a white bunny?" They then took him to a deserted car that they were keeping the bunny in since they'd found it on their property and they were feeding it carrots and stuff while they waited to see whose it was.

So dad brought bunny #1 home...to live with bunny #2. Amazingly enough - they got along great.

You can imagine our shock when a few months later - a few white babies came crawling out of the wooden enclosure and into the pen area. HOW could that happen?

So dad made a divider - put one rabbit in one side - left the babies in with what he thought was the mama.

Imagine our shock when still yet a few months later - we had babies again....and again....and again.

Dad & I were laughing about this over Father's Day and I said, "Dad...you grew up on a farm. Why didn't it dawn on you that the babies could get the mama pregnant when they got old enough?"

He was like..."Peg...that was over 30 years ago. We didn't think about such things back then. I mean....they were rabbits...no one really knew about them as pets and we didn't think a brother could get a sister pregnant or vice versa. "

Now to many of us - that might seem obvious - as in "How can you not know about this?"

Many of us as breeders did a lot of research and so when we hear a question we're like, "But why didn't you check into this?" or "duh...of course that can happen.."

But we need to remember - especially here in the rabbitry - that not everyone has had the exposure to the facts and knowledge we may have. Some people may be new to the internet and not know how to research things...or they don't realize that breeding rabbits can be time-consuming and heart-breaking because hey...isn't there a joke about how easy it is for rabbits to breed?

I'm just hoping in the future we can remember that others don't have the same experience and understanding that we have.

I think too that my experience with what was truly "backyard breeding" helps me be a little bit more understanding of others sometimes. 

But hey - at least I didn't have to worry about messing up the color genetics!


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## pamnock (Jun 30, 2010)

*lelanatty wrote: *


> The thing I don't understand abut chinchillas being in the agouti group is that they have no red/yellow rufus factor color anywhere on them and every other agouti variety does. Unless it is simply because of the fur ticking which makes them phenotypically look like agoutis that puts them in that group.



The agouti gene produces a banded hairshaft - it has nothing to do with the actual color of the intermediate band. Squirrel, sable chinchilla and chocolate chinchilla are other agouti varieties with a pearl intermediate band.


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## MikeScone (Jun 30, 2010)

*Nela wrote: *


> If y'all work together then we'll end up with *takes deep breath* green miniature flemish rabbitswith purple polka-dots and pink stripes with rex fur, lionhead manes, duck feet, wings, and they will be available in full lop or one lop ear one reg ear versions?


Boy, that's a tough one. I just can't get the wings right...


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## Luvr of Wabbits and Polar Bears (Jun 30, 2010)

:roflmao: That's a great picture Mike


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## mistyjr (Jun 30, 2010)

*Hay,, I should make a photo contest like this in the photo philers.. Thanks for giving me some examples that we can do...   


MikeScone wrote: *


> *Nela wrote: *
> 
> 
> > If y'all work together then we'll end up with *takes deep breath* green miniature flemish rabbitswith purple polka-dots and pink stripes with rex fur, lionhead manes, duck feet, wings, and they will be available in full lop or one lop ear one reg ear versions?
> ...


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## whaleyk98 (Jun 30, 2010)

Well the wings are the best part! Im picturing Pegasus wings =)


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## TinysMom (Jun 30, 2010)

*MikeScone wrote: *


> *Nela wrote: *
> 
> 
> > If y'all work together then we'll end up with *takes deep breath* green miniature flemish rabbitswith purple polka-dots and pink stripes with rex fur, lionhead manes, duck feet, wings, and they will be available in full lop or one lop ear one reg ear versions?
> ...


I want mine to have wings like a Robin....


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## lelanatty (Jul 1, 2010)

*pamnock wrote: *


> The agouti gene produces a banded hairshaft - it has nothing to do with the actual color of the intermediate band. Squirrel, sable chinchilla and chocolate chinchilla are other agouti varieties with a pearl intermediate band.


Thank you so much Finally I understand this. I love genetics. I raise silver martens and now otters too, ND's. It is tons of fun since there are so many colors, but a little confusing at times too.


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## Nela (Jul 1, 2010)

:laugh:

Y'all are too much!


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## MikeScone (Jul 1, 2010)

*whaleyk98 wrote: *


> Well the wings are the best part! Im picturing Pegasus wings =)


Sure, that's easy to say, but have you tried crossing a winged horse to a rabbit? How do you get a stallion to stoop that low?


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## whaleyk98 (Jul 1, 2010)

*MikeScone wrote: *


> *whaleyk98 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Well the wings are the best part! Im picturing Pegasus wings =)
> ...


Lol, .....thats onedelema I havent quite figured out the answer to yet .


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## Silver Star Rabbitry (Jul 5, 2010)

*pamnock wrote: *


> Orange (or a poor red) is the closest thing you can get to what you envision as a red silver marten.


Pam, how would you go about producing an orange?

Emily


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## lelanatty (Jul 8, 2010)

I believe we need this again so I dug it up from the grave. TinysMom, (Sorry, I wish I could see your actual name right now)your words are perfectly exemplified in a topic we have going right now. So just posting here to bring it back up in a slightly underhanded attempt to remind everyone what you said.


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## dixonsrabbitry1 (Jul 10, 2010)

*lelanatty wrote: *


> I believe we need this again so I dug it up from the grave. TinysMom, (Sorry, I wish I could see your actual name right now)your words are perfectly exemplified in a topic we have going right now. So just posting here to bring it back up in a slightly underhanded attempt to remind everyone what you said.


Maybe it needs to have a sticky so we aren't losing it again?


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