# I need help! (surprise litter)



## LadyOnslaught (Oct 4, 2008)

I feel completely awful that this happened! I was told both rabbits were girls but obviously one is a boy as I have baby rabbits. I'm crying I'm so upset I didn't notice. There are four I think. What do I do?!? I had no idea and I can't believe I let it happen. Please let me know what I need to do to make them comfortable.


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## Haley (Oct 4, 2008)

Hi there

Dont panic, these things happen all too often with bunnies. Im going to move this to the rabbitry so hopefully some of our breeders can help with suggestions.

Ive never had babies here but some things I can think off the top of my head- make sure mom and dad are separated now and do not have any contact. Otherwise she will have more in 30 days. 

What is mom using for a nestbox now? Do you see any blood in the cage and is mom acting ok? 

You will want to keep an eye on the babies to be sure their bellies are full. We have some pics here somewhere of babies with round bellies- I'll try to find them. Dont be afraid to handle them- mom will still take care of them.

Hopefully our breeders will be along with some more advice. Congrats on your new little ones- try to enjoy them even though they werent planned


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## Haley (Oct 4, 2008)

Here are some great articles I pulled from our Library

Suprise litter: http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/surpriselitter.html

nest boxes: http://islandgems.net/nestbox2.html

Domestic babies and their mom: http://www.rabbit.org/care/babies.html


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## LadyBug (Oct 4, 2008)

aww, babies! best wishes!

:stork::stork::stork::stork:



well, Haley beat me to the articles i was gonna go get:tongue(great minds think alike)

and Haley's right, they may be unplanned, but you might not have babies again, so enjoy them, take lots of pics, maybe start a baby bunny blog. once you know momma's doing her job, have some fun:thumbup!
:rainbow:


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## LadyOnslaught (Oct 4, 2008)

Ok, I have calmed down some. Obviously this was unplanned and I don't like suprises. I'm a planner and researcher so stuff like this is hard for me . Both buns have been separated and I think the male hates me now lol but he'll get over it. 

I know they were born around 5:00 a.m. this morning (probably give or take an hour or so). I heard the rabbits being noisy this morning then and honestly the thought of babies popped into my head but I was tired so figured I was just dreaming and/or imagining it. Around 8:30 I was gathering up the dirty laundry and looked into the cage and there was a little gray/black rabbit. I obviously freaked, mainly because their cage was nasty and that really bothered me. I'm not great at cleaning it and am trying to be better.

Right now I moved Riley and the babies into our computer room and then Morgan is in our bedroom where they were. I have Riley and the babies in a small cage and it's really too small for her but I just wanted to get them separated. I read on the house rabbit site to make a nesting box out of a cardboard box. She has a shoebox in there and then I cut an opening out so she can get in there with them and then there is a towel in there and they are laying on that.

She had five and all are active and moving around...much more than I thought they would be. One just got out of the box so I will have to make the opening a little taller. I thought they would just lay there and hardly move. 

Any suggestions? Do I need to feed her more pellets (she's on Oxbow) or anything?

I don't really think there is anything wrong with breeding if you do it correctly but obviously I did not. I took both buns to the vet and I was told Morgan was a girl. My husband and I looked and thought so too (not that we have any experience). I prefer to rescue them and hate bringing them into the world as there are so many other buns that need homes...it just makes me sad.

I haven't touched them yet, I kinda think they are nasty although I hate to say that. Should I be worried about her squishing them? I know I'm read dogs can do that so I didn't know. Riley seems fine although a little anxious but maybe she needs to get out and exercise? To answer a question I didn't notice any blood in the cage. Everything seemed normal other than the babies. Right now she's in there eating hay and has been periodically getting in the box with her babies.


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## TinysMom (Oct 4, 2008)

First of all - congrats on the little ones. I know they weren't planned for and wanted - but you'll be ok and make it.

But first - some bad news. If she was caged with daddy - and had the babies around 5 am and you didn't find them until later....she probably got pregnant again during that time. Does will give birth and then breed right away... This is something you'll need to keep in mind during the coming weeks as she'll be nursing this litter (but may wean them fairly young so she can nurse the next litter). She'll definitely be needing more food and you need to make sure she's drinking lots to keep her milk production up.

I can't think of much else that you haven't been told - it sounds like mama will take good care of the babies. I'll keep an eye on this thread though - and don't forget - we love pictures....as the babies get older and "cute".


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## LadyOnslaught (Oct 4, 2008)

Here are two pictures I took...sorry about the quality, they're from my camera phone. There are five...two black and then three light ones (I don't know what you would call them). She was stepping on one a minute ago and I moved her. Is it normal for her to step on them...she just kinda jumped on them.













Sorry the pics are small...I guess that' just from the phone.


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## LadyOnslaught (Oct 4, 2008)

*TinysMom wrote: *


> First of all - congrats on the little ones. I know they weren't planned for and wanted - but you'll be ok and make it.
> 
> But first - some bad news. If she was caged with daddy - and had the babies around 5 am and you didn't find them until later....she probably got pregnant again during that time. Does will give birth and then breed right away... This is something you'll need to keep in mind during the coming weeks as she'll be nursing this litter (but may wean them fairly young so she can nurse the next litter). She'll definitely be needing more food and you need to make sure she's drinking lots to keep her milk production up.
> 
> I can't think of much else that you haven't been told - it sounds like mama will take good care of the babies. I'll keep an eye on this thread though - and don't forget - we love pictures....as the babies get older and "cute".


How much food should I give her? I try and always make sure she has hay (she sometimes runs out if I'm at work or while I'm sleeping but then I give her more)


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## aurora369 (Oct 4, 2008)

Congratulations, albeit unplanned.

The nest box you made is good, however I would caution you against a towel. If it starts to fray any where and threads become loose, a baby can get tangle in the thread and injure or kill itself. I would put a little bit of shavings or litter on the bottom of the nest, and then lots and lots of hay. 

When a mommy rabbit builds a nest, she'll take the hay in her cage and build a nice deep nest. The hay will be very compact with a large fist sized hole in the middle. I would take a bunch of hay and compact it as best you can and make a hole in the middle. This will help keep the babies from wandering away and getting cold.

Also, it doesn't look like your girl pulled any fur. You can see if the fur on her tummy is loose and pull a bit from her if possible. If not your alternatives are using some clean dryer lint or clean cotton balls.

As for feeding, lots of hay, pellets and veggies. I would keep her diet as close to what it was before but with a larger helping of pellets. I have always free fed pellets to any nursing does I have had. 

Once the babies eyes open (at about 10-14 days), they will start exploring and nibbling on food in the cage. The babies will eat whatever mom eats, and I have always fed veggies to mom so the babies can get acclimated to them young. You have to carefully monitor for upset tummies with babies, but I have found that when they get them as they are still nursing, I haven't had problems.

Please keep asking questions as they come up. We have many people who breed or foster with lots of baby bunny experience who can help. 

And remember to have fun with the babies. Don't be scared to handle them. I always take the nest box out of the cage everyday to hold each baby. I normally take a fleece blanket with me on the couch and put them in the blanket on my lap. Then I stroke and hold them so they are used to lots of human contact. The babies become very friendly that way, and I have never had a mother reject her babies from it.

--Dawn


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## LadyOnslaught (Oct 4, 2008)

*aurora369 wrote: *


> Congratulations, albeit unplanned.
> 
> The nest box you made is good, however I would caution you against a towel. If it starts to fray any where and threads become loose, a baby can get tangle in the thread and injure or kill itself. I would put a little bit of shavings or litter on the bottom of the nest, and then lots and lots of hay.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your reply! So it would be best to give her unlimited pellets? She won't get too fat? Although I guess when she's nursing it would kind of balance itself out? What would I do with the cotton balls? I would prefer those to dryer lint and I have those...I don't have a dryer here. In a little while I will redo the nest like you suggested.


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## Haley (Oct 4, 2008)

Im also thinking if thats a wabbitat wire cage you might want to think about putting something around the bottom as the babies begin to move around- they might be able to get their head stuck in those bars or get right out altogether. I think people have used things like cardboard or coroplast in the past to line the bottom of the cage.

If you think she needs more space (which will probably be much better for her as they start to grow and hop around) you can build a cheap NIC pen. Have you seen these? Theyre made out of cheap shelving grids you can get from Target. You can check out our Library for more info, or this thread that explains them with pics: http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=15348&forum_id=21

There are some fancy ones in that thread- the absolute easiest thing to do is just to buy the grids, zip tie them together and find something for your floor and voila- you have a nice big pen!


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## LadyOnslaught (Oct 4, 2008)

*Haley wrote: *


> Im also thinking if thats a wabbitat wire cage you might want to think about putting something around the bottom as the babies begin to move around- they might be able to get their head stuck in those bars or get right out altogether. I think people have used things like cardboard or coroplast in the past to line the bottom of the cage.
> 
> If you think she needs more space (which will probably be much better for her as they start to grow and hop around) you can build a cheap NIC pen. Have you seen these? Theyre made out of cheap shelving grids you can get from Target. You can check out our Library for more info, or this thread that explains them with pics: http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=15348&forum_id=21
> 
> There are some fancy ones in that thread- the absolute easiest thing to do is just to buy the grids, zip tie them together and find something for your floor and voila- you have a nice big pen!




Yes, it is a Wabbit cage. I was wondering the same thing after one climbed out of the box. I know right now they won't get all of the way out but I was wondering about later.

I have a NIC cage actually. That's what the male is in now. It's 4 grids long by 2 deep I think. I thought about putting grids down the middle and one on one side and one on the other. Could they get to each other that way and would that be better for them?


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## Haley (Oct 4, 2008)

You could do that but you will need to be sure that you put something solid along with the grids in the middle as a divider- buns can mate through cage bars. Do you have a place locally that sells coroplast? You could use a sheet of that if it was secured properly. Or you could use something likea piece or plywood or pegboard cut to size.

Are you wanting to put mom and dad together again once the babies are weaned and dad is neutered? If so, it would be good to keep them at least in the same room (but again, be very careful because accidents do happen if they are near eachother). If youre planning on putting them together again one day, just be sure to wait at leat 8 weeks after dad is neutered because he can still impregnate her up to 2 months after his neuter.


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## aurora369 (Oct 4, 2008)

As for the cotton balls, just put them in the nest with the babies for insulation. Normally a mother pulls a bunch of fur to insulate the babies, but often new mothers don't. Since the babies don't have any fur, they need the insulation to help hold their body heat.

With the food, yes the nursing counteracts the free feeding. A lot of nursing mothers get very skinny because producing milk takes a lot of nutrients and energy.

If possible, I would put the mom in a 2x3 cube cage. If you have the room, expand your current cage to 6 by 2 and then put a solid divider down the middle to keep mom and dad separate. 

--Dawn


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## slavetoabunny (Oct 4, 2008)

I really don't have anything to add to the excellent advise that has been given here. We have had two litters come into rescue this summer, both along with mom- a litter of four2 week old babies and a litter of 7 one day old babies. They are such a joy. I saw one of the litter of 7 today (now 4 months old) - Chub Chub was handled daily by his fosters and turned out to be the sweetest cuddle bunny. He is such a delightful boy. I know you are stressed right now, but I hope you come to enjoy your little surprise.


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## Haley (Oct 4, 2008)

Or an even better idea- move dad into the Wabbitat cage and mom/babies into the NIC pen so they have more room. Moms tend to get stir crazy with those needy babies so the extra room is good


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## LadyOnslaught (Oct 4, 2008)

I wanted to say thank you to everyone that has helped me, you don't know how helpful you have been. I have a few questions...

1. Will she hurt them if she steps on them? She has done this a few times.

2. Is it ok if they get under the hay?

3. One 'twitches' a lot...is that normal. It was crying pretty loud and then twitching, stopped, and started again a few minutes later. Not sure if it's just really active or not.


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## BlueGiants (Oct 4, 2008)

They can get hurt if she steps on them, but usually won't, but it's best if she doesn't. If this is her first litter, it may take her a few days to figure out how to move around them.

It's normal for them to burrow under the hay or bedding. They do it for protection and warmth.

I'm a little concerned about the one that is twitching. Make sure it is close to the others and keeping warm. And try to see if it's getting nursed when she jumps in to feed them.


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## aurora369 (Oct 5, 2008)

I've got some pictures of some well fed babies for your reference. If the babies look like these ones, then you'll know they are getting fed enough by mom.

This is one of my old fosters. He was a singleton, and fed extremely well. So well that you can see the outline of the milk in his tummy.









These guys are about a week old and all are quite well fed.















These pictures are of babies within a day of birth, so your babies should look similar.

















I'm going to look for some nest box pictures to show you what a good nest should look like. Typically the mom will cover the babies with hay and fur after a feeding so they will stay warm and uncover them when she feeds them. 

--Dawn


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## naturestee (Oct 5, 2008)

Congrats on the unexpected! A quick note on nests- the fur on the mom's dewlap/chest and nipple area naturally loosens so they can pull it out more easily to make a nest and give the babies an easier time finding the nipples. If she didn't pull fur for the nest herself you can gently pluck some from those areas to help insulate the buns.

With my foster babies I've been using cardboard for baby proofing. The sides of the cage will definitely need it to prevent them from accidentally falling out. I just attached the cardboard to the cage with zip ties.

I don't know what size mama you have, but for my 4 lb mini rex mix foster mom I used a clean kitten sized litter box for a nest box. A shoe box could also work. 

Best of luck!


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## LadyOnslaught (Oct 5, 2008)

I moved the babies back into the big NIC cage and then the dad is in our kitchen. I don't have anything to put on the bottom and I didn't want him on the carpet making a mess.

I know some pics were posted earlier and I looked at two of them and one doesn't seem to have a full tummy? Should I do anything? Would it be that way if it's time for them to eat again maybe? I am going to see if I can borrow my mom's digital camera so I can get better pics. 

One also seemed to have (I know I won't describe this right) a tan spot on it's back and it was like the tan spot had kinda dry skin where it was...the rest was a pinkish skin color. Would that mean anything? I will try to get a picture...I just checked on them and didn't notice it right away but I didn't want to bother them too much. I didn't know if maybe it meant it wasn't getting fed enough.


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## aurora369 (Oct 6, 2008)

The tan dot is probably just going to be a different colour of fur when it grows in. Shouldn't be anything bad.

If one baby is looking like it's not getting fed, you can try to get mom to give that baby and extra feeding. Is the baby's belling shrunken or wrinkled? If it's not getting any milk at all, it may be lethargic as well. If it's just smaller than the other one, but just not as round in the tummy, then it's probably okay. As long as the baby still has energy and wiggles when you touch it, the baby should be okay.

If you do feel the one baby needs a bit of an extra feed, then I would take the larger baby out of the nest and then encourage mom to get in the nest and feed the other baby. You can gently place her in the nest over the baby and feed her treats to distract her while the little one feeds. You should only have to do this once a day until the little one starts to catch up.

Pictures would definitely be good. Since your babies are still fairly young, they should look somewhat like the last pictures I post of the newborns.

--Dawn


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## LadyOnslaught (Oct 6, 2008)

*aurora369 wrote: *


> The tan dot is probably just going to be a different colour of fur when it grows in. Shouldn't be anything bad.
> 
> If one baby is looking like it's not getting fed, you can try to get mom to give that baby and extra feeding. Is the baby's belling shrunken or wrinkled? If it's not getting any milk at all, it may be lethargic as well. If it's just smaller than the other one, but just not as round in the tummy, then it's probably okay. As long as the baby still has energy and wiggles when you touch it, the baby should be okay.
> 
> ...



I am going to have my husband help me this evening compare all of the babies to the pictures. I noticed one is smaller and is in the one that looked skinner. Wrinkled skin...that's what I thought of last night after I posted. Loose skin too and the others look like their skin is tighter.

Also, what is the normal number of babies that are born? She had five...is that about average?

I'm hoping to borrow my mom's digital camera so I can get pics but I'm not sure if I can get it tonight or not. I may see if I can get some decent pics on my husband's camera phone but I doubt they would be very good.


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## LadyOnslaught (Oct 6, 2008)

Before leaving for work I got the box of babies out. Four of them were huddled together and the little one was in the corner by himself very cold. He moved when I picked him up and I put him with his siblings and he was squirming around. I looked at him and I *think* he looked like he had a fuller tummy than before (I figure she fed them sometime during the night so I wanted to check this morning).

What about him (I call the little one a him butof course I don't know)being cold? Is it because he was away from the others I'm guessing? I read to cut a hole in the box so mom could get in but three times one has gotten out...should I tape the hole up and she can just hop into it (it's a showbox)?


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## BlueGiants (Oct 6, 2008)

The little one was probably cold because he got away from his siblings. They do rely oneach other to keep warm.

Any hole in a nestbox should be a minimum of 4" above the nesting material in the nest box, to prevent the babies from leaving until they are ready. As long as the Momma can jump in and out, it's fine.


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## LadyOnslaught (Oct 6, 2008)

*BlueGiants wrote: *


> The little one was probably cold because he got away from his siblings. They do rely oneach other to keep warm.
> 
> Any hole in a nestbox should be a minimum of 4" above the nesting material in the nest box, to prevent the babies from leaving until they are ready. As long as the Momma can jump in and out, it's fine.


That's what I figured...he got cold becuase he was separated. The hole I have is too low then. I will fix it as soon as I get home. I did not see that requirement on the webpage I read.


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## BlueGiants (Oct 6, 2008)

Umm... it's not a requirement... just what works for me. (Guess I should have added a IMHO...) The front of my nest boxes are 5" high, with 1-2" of shavings in the bottom, it keeps the babies secure. I do have straw bedding too, but the does usually push it to the back or crush it down. This "edge" will usually nudge the babies off her nipples on her way out of the box so they don't "hitch a ride" out.

When their eyes open, I clean out the box, and change the bedding,adding fresh straw to make it cozy and clean. At 3 weeks, I turn the nestbox on it's side so the babies can come and go as they please and Momma can sit on top to get away from the little ones for a few minutes.


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## jcl_24 (Oct 9, 2008)

Hi there,
How is your litter of buns and their Mum doing now?

Jo xx


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## LadyOnslaught (Oct 9, 2008)

*rabbit_on wrote: *


> Hi there,
> How is your litter of buns and their Mum doing now?
> 
> Jo xx



Thanks for asking! On...Tuesday I think Riley pulled some of her fur and put it on her babies. I can't believe how much they've grown already. Looks like they're getting some fur too. I've never been around babies that tiny, well babies at all so it's neat to see them grow. Riley loves the eating part lol although this morning she was trying to get out. Awhile ago she was starting to jump out of her cage (I left an opening so it was my fault). She has stayed in there the past few days so today I had to make sure the top was down. I was feeding her and she jumped up the nic cage wall and tried to jump out. 

I had mentioned one baby twitching although I'm not sure which it is (there are three light ones) and one was doing it last night but doesn't do it constantly.


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## BlueGiants (Oct 9, 2008)

They do dream and I've seen babies "run" in their sleep... it does look like twitching...


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## LadyOnslaught (Oct 9, 2008)

*BlueGiants wrote: *


> They do dream and I've seen babies "run" in their sleep... it does look like twitching...


I had wondered if they might dream. I wasn't sure.


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## jcl_24 (Oct 11, 2008)

I'm glad Riley pulled some fur to help keep the babies warm and that they seem to be doing fine RE her trying to jump out of the cage-perhaps she was feeling a little restless after being in there with ther babies for a while? 

Jo xx


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## LadyOnslaught (Oct 13, 2008)

*jcl_24 wrote: *


> I'm glad Riley pulled some fur to help keep the babies warm and that they seem to be doing fine RE her trying to jump out of the cage-perhaps she was feeling a little restless after being in there with ther babies for a while?
> 
> Jo xx


I'm sure she probably was . I'm wondering if she's missing Morgan too (the male). He's been in the kitchen so they don't see one another which I feel bad about but it's for the best. She used to jump out anyways so it's not something new but I would be feeling a little restless withfour babies too .


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