# E. Cuniculi; Is it a big deal or not?



## nobunnynoclue (Apr 14, 2012)

Ever since the vet called to tell me Fiona has e. cuniculi, I have been reading *everything* I can find about it. So has my husband (even tho his motives have been to find a reason to get rid of the rabbitsI)

But even he can't find anything that positively points towards it really being this horrible disease. A Lagomorph Aids of sorts. My vet had me thinking it is a death sentence. But I find very conflicting information online. The only publication I could find that terrorizes the reader about this issue was one from Petco. 

So far what I've read has taught me the following:

- Other mammals can get this but it doesn't affect them like it does rabbits. 
- There have only been a handful of cases of this infecting humans and they all had full blown aids. An immune deficiency disease that makes them vulnerable to everything under the sun anyway. 
- A high percentage of rabbits carry this parasite but only about 12% ever show any signs of it. 
- Rabbits that suffer from it usually are suffering from an immune system depletion to begin with. 
- Symptomatic rabbits can improve greatly from inexpensive meds such as ivermectin, dewormers, and other meds I fail tKio remember the names of right now. 
- Once treated, a rabbit can improve and never relapse again.
- After infection, rabbits are not contagious after about the first 3 months. 
- rabbits supposedly that die from this, could very well have died from any number of other ailments. 
- the test for e. cuniculi only tells you if the rabbit has been exposed. Not if the rabbit has an active infection of it. 

Am I forgetting anything?

I can tell you that the thought of putting Fiona down over a disease nobody knows enough about is ludicrous. If Jake doesn't have it, I would be inclined to let them back together and risk him getting infected just so I could keep them both. Sounds kindof selfish, but it just sounds like too many rabbits have this parasite and never experience any ill effect. 

If Fiona is incontinent and that never improves, I could live with it because she's sick. Being sick is different from having an I correctable behavioral problem. I could not and would not pay $200+ per quarter treatment for a rabbit for life, but I also could not explain to my kids that their rabbit is going to die because she's become an inconvenience. 

Sigh... 

I go to the vet again tomorrow at 10:30am. I'll report back whatever unfolds tomorrow.


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## LakeCondo (Apr 14, 2012)

I wouldn't put her down unless & until she is in constant pain or otherwise has a terrible life. But I wouldn't put them together, either, at least not until you see how things unfold.


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## nobunnynoclue (Apr 14, 2012)

I agree with you. 

It felt good to have a good rant and get that out. This whole situation has p*ssed me off but it's been a learning experience. There are things I would have done differently such as taking Fiona to the vet as soon as I got her and not just for the spay. It was a mobile m.a.s.h unit and they don't do anything more than spay and neuter. 

If I had done that then I would have known about this a long time ago and would not have gotten Jake. 

They were only together 10 days and they have been separated since his neuter so he *might* have escaped infection. I will know by Thursday. 

I took Jake to get tested this morning and talk to the vet. He said there is no risk to the rest of my pets including my birds. So that took a load off. I asked what kind of test had been done and if it could only tell if she was exposed. Unfortunately his answer was that the testing is thorough and that she definitely has an active acute infection. 

He had told me briefly that he was going to look into another treatment that is not as expensive but, again, I was let down. He said there was talk of using a different med but he could not find any cases where it had been used with rabbits. He could not find information dosage or studies so he did not feel comfortable experimenting on a client's pet. 

he said that her infection is acute and I we do nothing, she might live for years and never get worse, or she might get worse and eventually die. If she gets worse, then he thinks she won't live more than a few months. 

I asked about doin the treatment once. For as long as the first tube lasts and he said we could do that but there was no guarantee that she won't just start getting worse again when the treatment stops. She has Protein in her urine which is an indication of kidney malfunction. The treatment could stop the disease from progressing, but it will not reverse whatever damage may have already occurred. 

So the next step for us is to wait for the results on Jake's tests. This is going to sound bad but I almost hoping for a positive test result. I know exactly what I will do if he has this disease too. I would let them live together and we would keep them both. And if either or both worsen, then we'd deal with it as it comes, but I would not get either of them treated. MAYBE for 6 months and then stop, but not for the rest of their lives. 

If his test is negative, then one of them has to go and choosing which one goes won't be easy. Even tho Jake has only been with us for 2 weeks. I still feel overwhelming responsibility towards doing what's right by him.


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## abbenator (Apr 14, 2012)

That does sound like a really difficult situation. 

If Jake does test negative, maybe you could seek a home for Fiona that is willing to take on the responsibility of treating her? Seems like a slim chance, I know, but it could be worth of a shot if that is something you are willing to consider. 

Either way, I hope everything turns out the best for you guys. I'd hate to see anyone suffer, bunnies and family members alike.


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## woahlookitsme (Apr 14, 2012)

This is why when I get to vet school I want to personally make a huge research project out of studying e.cuniculi.

I have personally dealt with an affected bun and it nearly crushed me.
Her short story is here
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=62196&forum_id=7

I think hers was a worst case scenario. I really don't think doctors and people of this day know enough about the parasite and I want to strive to write a paper for juliet. After going through what juliet did I would never believe that a dewormer could have saved her. But she was already getting secondary infections. It was so fast and came up so quickly I had no clue what to do. I think that as long as they are both healthy and you do the dewormer treatment then you wouldn't have to get rid of either of them. 

Yes it is true if she comes up positive for the titer test it doesn't mean she has it but was just exposed. But the only way to really know if they have it is by looking at the actual affected tissue. I would just watch them both if they are both acting normally and eating and drinking fine then I would keep them both and be happy.


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## majorv (Apr 14, 2012)

EC can be a big deal. Like you found out it's not unusual for a rabbit to test positive. Rabbits who test positive can go through life with no symptoms. As Sarah indicated, our first indication there was a problem with that litter was the slightly splayed front legs on two of them. There was no warning when Juliet's back legs stopped working...she'd won Best of Breed at a show just 2 weeks earlier...but it just went downhill after that. EC can affect 3 different areas, so the symptoms in one rabbit won't necessarily be the same in another. Please keep us up to date on what you decide and how it goes!


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## nobunnynoclue (Apr 15, 2012)

Sarah, if Jake tests negative, are you saying that I should keep them both together anyway even if it means he will get infected? 

Sure, I will keep you all posted. Btw, I read your story. Those tans were beautiful!!

I have been looking around at local rabbit rescues and ant an email to the largest one I've found. They have so many rabbits in foster homes and not enough fosters so they're not taking in anymore rabbits. 
I have gutt feeling Jake is going to test negative.


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## woahlookitsme (Apr 15, 2012)

Sorry i was saying if he tests positive. If he tests negative you might want to ask how long if he is exposed will it take for the test to come up positive. If she is affected and they had already been together then its very likely he would come up positive too. If she was just exposed then i wouldnt think she would be contagious. 

Like my mom was saying kidneys are one of the areas that can be affected. If there is any treatment that you would be willing to try i would try it for fiona. If jake is negative you might really want to talk to your doctor about all of the possibilities and risks of keeping him. If you cant or dont want to find a home you could also ask if keeping them separated would be a problem.


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## nobunnynoclue (Apr 15, 2012)

I'm keeping them separated now but this is a temporary living arrangement. I couldn't keep them both and keep them separated indefinitely. I dont have the room. Not unless making them live in a tiny crate is OK. I would think it's not. 

There is a huge palace of a bunny cage sitting in the office begging for a bunny. 

If he is positive, then like I said, no problem. I would probably treat just her for 6 months and them stop. But if he's negative, then I'll have to start finding one of them a new home. 

The other alternative is to let him live in the office, while she stays in the small crate during treatment (roughly 6 months). However, if she has a suppressed immune system, I would think living in the small crate would not be conducive to boosting her immune system. 

There's gotta be someone(s) out there who is willing to help me treat her with meds that this vet would not try. I'll keep searching.


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## nobunnynoclue (Apr 15, 2012)

I wanted to make an observation. Irony. (unless I'm using Alanis Morisette's definition). 

Just 2 weeks ago I was ready to toss this bunny out with the morning trash. And now I want to figure out how I can keep her. Disease and all. I guess seeing an animal in need has that effect.


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## nobunnynoclue (Apr 15, 2012)

Also, something didn't seem right with her today. She was laying on the top floor of her crate. All morning. She usually sits in her litter box. When I talked to her and got close, she didn't move a muscle. Very odd. She's usually on high alert around people. I know she saw me because her eyes were open and she was facing me. So no chance she wasn't aware I was there (she might be deaf). 

I openned the crate and stuck my arm in to pet her. Again she didn't move. She normally freaks out and races back to her litter box to hide. I asked my husband to give her some alfalfa hay (Im allergic). And she sat up and started eating then. She's just looking depressed again. She was doing so well when Jake was with her. Seriously sad.


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## nobunnynoclue (Apr 15, 2012)

""Research has shown that 40 to 80% of healthy house rabbits in the United States will test positive for E. cuniculi. This means they have been exposed to the parasite, but does not mean an otherwise healthy rabbit will show symptoms of the disease any time in its life.""

This is what gives me hope and calms me down.


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