# Screaming Giants



## weedflemishgiants (Oct 2, 2008)

A few years ago I bought two fawn flemish brothers about three months old. A few days later when I went to feed them they both started shrieking at me. Just a horrible horrible sound. Once you have heard that rabbit scream of fear or rage you never forget. And so loud and piercing. Well, I was sure something was wrong with them so I called the breeder who assured me this was something they did sometimes. Eventually I bought their mom and lo and behold she did it too. There were times when every single fawn rabbit I had was shrieking simultaneously in the barn until the neighbors started to complain.
They mostly screamed when they heard the feed can open or the sound of a carrot snapping in half. But they could also scream for no reason whatsoever in the middle of the night. 
At a show one of the bucks sounded off while sitting in his travel carrier which resulted in an incredible uproar of other show rabbits screaming, others on the table going on alert status and rabbits being groomed on tables actually trying to split from the hall. Fortunately, that was that rabbit's last scream. For some reason he never screamed again.
Now he has babies, two litters, nice mixes of whites, sandies and fawns and suddenly a new buyer of one of his fawn babies calls distressed because her darling nine week old buck is screaming at her. 
I find it funny. I understand that rabbits may do this when they are distressed or angry or in pain. Mine don't. If in pain or angry they just sulk in a corner. My rabbits are not mean and they can always be stopped from screaming by a little attention.
Tracking and breeding has shown me that yes I do have generational screaming in the line, but only in the fawns. The resulting white and sandy litters of the fawns do not scream. It is only in my fawns. Some people see it as a fault. Most likely because it is blood curdling when you hear it. But I like it and I will leave it in the line. 
It is just too funny to breed out.
A friend of mine has it only in her blues. She has one doe that will ONLY scream at a show.


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## gentle giants (Oct 2, 2008)

Oh, wow, that is so...well, weird, LOL. I have one doe that sometimes will scream when she hears the feed barrel open, but she doesn't do it very often, thank heaven. I have never heard of this before, I hope someone more experienced comes on here and comments on this.


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## Leaf (Oct 2, 2008)

*weedflemishgiants wrote: *


> There were times when every single fawn rabbit I had was shrieking simultaneously in the barn until the neighbors started to complain.





> At a show one of the bucks sounded off while sitting in his travel carrier which resulted in an incredible uproar of other show rabbits screaming, others on the table going on alert status and rabbits being groomed on tables actually trying to split from the hall.





> Now he has babies, two litters, nice mixes of whites, sandies and fawns and suddenly a new buyer of one of his fawn babies calls distressed because her darling nine week old buck is screaming at her.





> I find it funny.





> Some people see it as a fault. Most likely because it is blood curdling when you hear it.





> But I like it and I will leave it in the line.
> It is just too funny to breed out.





That doesn't sound very amusing to me.


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## tonyshuman (Oct 2, 2008)

I think it's scary, not funny, personally. I'd tell people that your fawns are prone to screaming, since it's such a scary sound and people usually assume rabbits are quiet animals.


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## gentle giants (Oct 2, 2008)

If you are selling them for pets, then it probably would be a good idea to warn people, in case they live in an apartment or something. Other than that, I don't think I would see it as a big deal, assuming your heart can stand the sudden piercing screams, LOL. Just out of curiosity, have you ever talked to a vet about that? I can't see that it would be a health problem or anything, it would just be interesting to see if a vet would have any insight into why they would do that. Truly an odd thing.


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## Leaf (Oct 2, 2008)

*gentle giants wrote: *


> I can't see that it would be a health problem or anything, it would just be interesting to see if a vet would have any insight into why they would do that. Truly an odd thing.



You know, that is something that niggles on my mind about this,

If rabbits scream in pain or mortal fear (in most cases) - what happens if someone buys a baby and screaming is an ongoing issue, thougha vet can't find something physically *wrong*?

Would euthanasia be suggested due to "unknown" origin of pain - Would the owner be up to paying for tons of tests that would lead to... nothing?

If a poster here on the forum were to make a thread saying screaming is an issue I'd bet many would suggest vetting.

But in a situation like this, vetting could be very... non or counterproductive.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Oct 2, 2008)

Wow I hate the scream rabbits make. It's awful. I've only heard it once and I never want to hear it again! 

I, personally, wouldn't buy from somebody who's rabbits screamed all the time. 

The screams are so awful too hear and most screams mean the rabbits are in awful pain. 

I can't see how you find it funny, either. 

Emily


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## Pipp (Oct 2, 2008)

I find it pretty funny. :laughsmiley:

It's horrible when it's caused by horrible stress or pain, but this isn't the case here. 

It's like saying that when Sherry grunts and honks and lunges, I should always be very afraid because that's an attack sound. 

But I know it's not -- or at least not very often -- so I find it hilarious. She likes chasing your hand and will play that way. 

A scream can never be hilarious to me 'cause it's an awful sound, but yes, rather amusing in this case.

This is a great topic, I'd love to hear from Pam Nock and other breeders. 


sas :nod


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## RexyRex (Oct 2, 2008)

Gixxer screamed at the vet's because he couldn't get loose from the vet tech's grip and was very frightened, she was trying to hold him in her arms, not flat on the table. He BARELY lets me or Chris hold him, there was no way a stranger was going to! (As I tried to tell her.) I shot across the table and scooped him away from her telling her that if a bun fights that much then LET HIM GO! I hope to never hear that sound from any of mine again, it's sounds so helpless it's heartbreaking. I also heard a wild baby bun scream when a cat got him when I was a teenager. Awful sound.

I hope you don't think that we're ganging up on you. I saw a video on Youtube once where someone's rabbit would scream when their owner made a high pitched noise, he didn't look to be in any distress at all, it was just something that the 2 of them did. Lots of people thought it was funny and I could understand why, it's just that a rabbit's scream send shivers down my spine.


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## JadeIcing (Oct 2, 2008)

I think maybe when you have only heard it in pain it is hard to think of it as funny.

Honking and so on like Sas's Sherry and it is funny. More so when it comes from a netherland dwarf. 

I have read alot about flemish giants and have never heard of this.


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## Bramblerose (Oct 2, 2008)

For some completely bizarre reason my Florida White babies scream all the time, mostly when I'm filling their water dish, and its every litter that does this, not just one. They do however seem to grow out of it. Its spooky at first, then I got used to it, just little white rabbits standing there screaming as the water dish fills up. I would not like it at all if they continued as adults, or even worse, if my Flemish screamed. Big difference, a 1 lb bunny shrieking, or a 16 lb rabbit screaming. I've had very young Flemish babies scream in fear but never an adult. Have to be honest, really don't think its a trait to keep, no offense, can't imagine most Flemish folks finding it amusing. Amusing could turn to annoying pretty quickly, if your selling them as pets perhaps you should warn people before they buy. Some people get a rabbit as a pet because they can't have a noisy cat or dog, then they end up with a honking big screaming rabbit that they then can't keep. Not something I'd want in my lines, I've got a siamese cat that never shuts up, thats enough for me.


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## pamnock (Oct 3, 2008)

We had some Himalayans that would squeal when I ran the water into the bucket. 

Pam


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## weedflemishgiants (Oct 3, 2008)

It's actually very common in Flemish and I am surprised so many people here have never heard of it.

The clue as to whether they need a vet or not is when they do it. Like I said one very well known HUGE breeder of Flemish giants has a doe that ONLY screams when she is getting groomed at a show.

Another breeder down south had a Flemish that screamed when out in the play pen only. 

The person I bought my first flemish from told me about the screaming after mine screamed because frankly, not all of them do it. Some of my fawns do it and some don't. But for me it is only fawns, never the whites and never the sandies.

I find it interesting and amusing in my guys because for my guys it is an indication that they are terribly spoiled. All I have to do is break a carrot in half and they will scream. Usually the screaming as in the case of the baby I sold last week is accompanied by much binking at the same time.

That is why I have never seen a full grown flemish scream. By the time they are full grown they pretty much become slugs and don't bink or scream but sit around with their hocks up all day.

I'm sorry you all find it so terrible and offensive. For my own part I enjoy the different personalities and idiosyncrasies in my rabbits and have no intention of changing their behavior.

Also trying to compare Flemish behavior to dwarf rabbit behavior is pretty impossible.

But I also have to say that in seven years I have never had a rabbit in severe enough pain to scream so personally I have not had the horrible experiences you all have and that might be the difference there. I did have a rabbit that at six weeks got so severely scratched by another baby that he needed stitches. But what he did was not a scream. It was a squeal. 

So I guess I will have to wait until I have had a rabbit as badly ill or injured as you all have had to make that judgement.

As far as my buyers go, I have a whole page on it on my website. So yeah they know but they are not prepared. then when it does happen the first time, they still check to make sure.


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## weedflemishgiants (Oct 3, 2008)

Also I find it interesting that you all have rabbits that DO scream in pain. My experience with my Flemish is to take them to the vet when they are very quiet, sullen and depressed and I will find something wrong.

As long as they are hopping, binking, and screaming they are fine.

But any Flemish I have ever had that was sick- did not make a peep. They were too depressed for that so I see depression and listlessness as a sign of illness and pain, not screaming in the play pen.

I wonder what others think about this?


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## weedflemishgiants (Oct 3, 2008)

How interesting RexyRex. I have never had that experience either. But then I have two veterinarians- one is a rabbit specialist that came out here from Delaware and the other is a veterinarian and an ARBA rabbit judge. 

So maybe they hire techs that know how to handle rabbits. Personally, I would never take my rabbit to a vet who hired techs who did NOT know how to handle rabbits. 

Flemish are such big animals but their systems are so fragile, that I never advocate taking rabbits to any vet or tech that would cause them to scream.

I think it is very important for rabbit owners to search and search until they findveterinarians who really do know rabbits. The average vet might be helpful in emergencies.... when my bunny got his big scratch I had to take him to an emergency pet vet downtown who literally told me he did not feel he had enough experience to work withrabbits and referred me to a specialist in Redding. And I have been eternally grateful for that vet's honesty.


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## weedflemishgiants (Oct 3, 2008)

I've never had a netherland dwarf that honked. In fact I did not even know any rabbit could honk. LOL.

I have a holland lop that sucks in his breath, puffs out his cheeks and then lets it out in a huge puff like the big bad wolf. 

He never has grown out of that and he is eight years old now. But he like the Giants only does it when he wants something badly enough.


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## Pipp (Oct 3, 2008)

weedflemishgiants wrote:


> Also I find it interesting that you all have rabbits that DO scream in pain.



I've only had Pipp scream in fear when she came across a tiny puppy (smaller than her), panicked and got tangled in her harness. 

There's the so-called 'death scream'. A lot of people get upset hearing it because it happens as they're dying, but it's not a pain reflex, it's actually just part of the process of a rabbit's system shutting down. 

I will add that there was a misunderstanding in this thread between a couple posters over a matter totally unrelated to this thread, so those posts were all pulled and the posters asked to take it to email. 

In case anybody was wondering.  


sas :lalalala:


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## Bramblerose (Oct 3, 2008)

Must be a California Screaming Flemish thing, because its not common here. I was showing in ARBA nearly 30 years ago, and my next door neighbor bred and showed Flemish on a National level for that long, no screamers. I myself have light grays, their pretty quiet, the babies have screamed in fear, but thats it. I find it interesting that its color linked for you, so I wrote a couple of Fawn breeders that I know, they had not had a problem with screaming rabbits. Are you also saying that they grow out of it? That would be similiar to my Florida Whites, although they normally stop it by 3 months. Even though each breed has its own unique charateristics their all still rabbits , and share basic behaviors, many rabbits do scream when they feel a sharp pain, others do not, and most do sit sluggishly when they feel unwell. Most scream in fear, and it is a horrible noise. I have however seen Checkered Giants scream in fury, that now is truly terrifying. Didn't mean to make you feel defensive, nor offend you in any way, not at all, screaming rabbits just for the heck of it just isn't something I would really want in my rabbitry. You also said that sometimes they scream in the middle of the night, well I've had that happen more than once, it was always predaters, last time it was a bear killing my rabbits. Sometimes its good to have a baby moniter in the rabbitry, but its a terrible thing to wake up to. My rabbits make all kinds of little noises, some more than others, I know what the 'honking' sounds like, its normally an 'I'm annoyed' sound. My mini rex can be quite vocal in a friendly sort of way, little clicks(not teeth) when their being petted. Rabbits aren't completely silent, some are far more 'talky' than others. This is an interesting subject on the vocalizations of rabbits, perhaps we can all learn a bit from it, thanks for posting about it.


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## BlueGiants (Oct 3, 2008)

I have White Flemish that "squeal" a lot. LOUDLY and persistently! (I wouldn't call it a scream...A rabbit scream can make my blood run cold!) Very vocal group as babies. And yeah, they tend to outgrow it by the time they are 5 months old. As 3-4 week old babies they complain about everything, Mom hopping in the box, mom hopping out of the box, me filling the feeder, thebabies "next door" running around, anything! You aught to hear them when I clean the cage! LOL! Sounds like I'm killing them! (And heaven help me if I try to put them in another cage while I clean! LOL!) And it's every litter out of 3 of my white girls...

Thinking about it, I can trace them back to one line of breeding. But as adults, they are the sweetest, calmest rabbits I have. I'm totally confident passing them on to kids or families...


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## gentle giants (Oct 3, 2008)

My Flemish have always been the quietest rabbits in my barn. It's the Mini Rex that usually talk to me. Lady (RIP) would always squeak happily when she ate something tasty, and Delilah will sort of whimper when I pick her up. And Sophie and Marie always grumble at me when I reach into their cages. So does JW Delilah. (Yes, I have two delilahs, it's very confusing.)


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## BlueGiants (Oct 3, 2008)

I have avery sweetFlemish girl whose name was Princess (don't ask!) and she constantly "talks". Grunts, squeals, huffs, moans and purrs, everytime you handle her. I swear she mutters under her breath! Not being nasty or mean, just vocal... a certain judge at a show called her "Oprah" when he took her out of the box 'cause she was muttering away at him...said she had an opinion that she just had to share... and I'm afraid the name stuck. She is very pretty and a big hit with visitors.

I have a few Mini Rex that let me know they have something to say... but I enjoy it. Makes me laugh and smile. At least I know everything is OK with them as long as they are talking...


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## polly (Oct 3, 2008)

my friend has a dutch doe that screams at feeding time but then she had a litter and all the babies scream too!! gave her a bit of a fright but its just obviously a trait they have!


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## RexyRex (Oct 3, 2008)

*weedflemishgiants wrote: *


> How interesting RexyRex. I have never had that experience either. But then I have two veterinarians- one is a rabbit specialist that came out here from Delaware and the other is a veterinarian and an ARBA rabbit judge.
> 
> So maybe they hire techs that know how to handle rabbits. Personally, I would never take my rabbit to a vet who hired techs who did NOT know how to handle rabbits.
> 
> I think it is very important for rabbit owners to search and search until they findveterinarians who really do know rabbits.




My vet is very knowledgable with rabbits, but she's that office's only specialist. She even asked me if that tech could come in because she was training her. My vet's office sees ALL animals, but my vet mainly deals with only rabbits. The poor tech felt awful but she didn't hurt him. Perhaps Gixxer should not have been that tech's first client since he is very skiddish....but, how can someone become more knowledgable if no one lets them try


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