# Is Baytril the best treatment for head tilt?



## f_j (Mar 20, 2007)

As some of you know, we discovered on Friday that my girl Penelope has slight head tilt. Our vet prescribed Baytril and we will be going back for a re-check this Friday. I know a few members here have bunnies who have survived head tilt, and I am wondering what treatment did your bunnies get? Was it Baytril? Can we expect the head tilt to go away completely? Or will the Baytril just stop it from getting worse? What if it doesn't work? I am getting so worried about our girl. She is eating, drinking and acting completely normal, which I'm hoping is a good sign. Any thoughts would be much appreciated.


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## TinysMom (Mar 20, 2007)

First of all, in what I am about to say...I want to say first..

_*I am not saying "do not see a vet." I highly recommend vets and they can test for the causes of head tilt.

*_With that said, I have treated *six* cases of head tilt - my latest run is doing laps around the room with a slight tilt to her head - especially when she is tired...but she usually sits upright lately. This is amazing to me since I thought we were going to lose her due to weight loss about 3 weeks ago.

I (and most breeders I know) use Barbi Brown's methods for treating head tilt. You can read about it here:

http://www.barbibrownsbunnies.com/ecuniculi.htm

In the past, I have also added the products Systemajuv and ViraStem (or something like that) from Rabbit Medicine Chest. However, I noticed that echinacea was the first ingredient in one of those products and I went a cheaper route with the last 2 cases of head tilt I had.

a. I did the ivomec and piperazine per Barbi Brown's instructions.

b. I bought echinacea capsules at the grocery store and added them to baby food w/ some canned pumpkin mixed in. I started out with the contents of 2 capsules per serving of baby food (I used about half a jar at a time with about an equal amount of pedialyte and pumpkin).As I noticed how much it helped my rabbits - I upped it 1 capsule per time to about 5 capsules per session. The more they got - the better they seemed to do - but I didn't want to over do it. I was treating 3-4rabbits at a time as some of my former head tilt victims had a bit of atilt again (which I've noticed can happen if we get a cold snap or if they get a bit dehydrated). 

c. Once they were not rolling (yes, I had some rolling) - I started giving them exercise time on the floor. At first they laid there. Then they sat up. However, I found that if they were given a large free area to play in - eventually they would start doing laps -and that the more laps they did - the more their head straightened. Call me crazy...but it has worked for me so well that a breeder friend went out and bought a playpen for her wry neck rabbit and guess what? Its working!

I've never used Baytril with a wry neck rabbit so I can't tell you how it works. I wish I could help you more.

Once again, _*I am not saying you should not see a vet. If Barbi's methods did not work so well for me, I would go to a vet. However,because they have worked so well for me in the past, I use them first now.

*_Peg


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## Haley (Mar 20, 2007)

The only thing Im wondering, is there a difference between head tilt treatment when its due to an ear infection and when its due to something like EC? Do you know, Peg?

Because I think with Penelope, if Im remembering right, it was something that came on very quickly, which makes me think ear infection. Did your vet look in the ears of give you ear drops?

Im just wondering if treatment of head tilt depends on which is causing it?


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## f_j (Mar 20, 2007)

Haley - To be honest I'm not sure. I assume she looked in her ears because she gave her a full exam...she didn't say that she had an ear infection though. No ear drops. That is what I am a bit confused about as well - how can we know we are treating the head tilt properly if we don't know for sure what is causing it? My vet did mention that she has another treatment we can try if the Baytril doesn't work...I'm not sure what it is though.


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## TinysMom (Mar 20, 2007)

*This is part of what Barbi has said on her site in the history section:

*During the last twenty years as a rabbit breeder I have seen a great variety of ailments, injuries and mysteries appear throughout my herd and those of friends but the most challenging and perplexing certainly must be Wry neck.
Here is what I have found and the conclusions I have reached through research and necropsy. 
I believe E.cuniculi is far more common in rabbit herds than commonly accepted and is the most common cause of "Wry Neck" and other symptoms.
I know that is manageable and treatablecontrary to the opinion of many animal health professionals. I only wish I knew for certain where and how it begins. I suspect, but cannot confirm that rabbits contract the parasite in hay which is infected by rodents or birds in the hay fields or from other livestock that were previously pastured there. I doubt that it is acquired in pelleted feed since most of it is subjected to heat in the processing which would limit the possibility of the parasite surviving from alfalfa field to pellet. Another recent conclusion is that *there is quite often a relationship to deydration*.

Now for my personal comments.....here is how we've seen it develop.

Case A: Buck Jones - brought on by dehydration....reoccurs about once a year usually with the change of weather and he still has slight head tilt - it was better before Connie passed away now its getting a bit worse.

Case B: Puck - yes our beloved Puck got wry neck last August and we almost lost him. He has had it off and on since then. We'll get him over it and running around and he'll either get a draft or dehydrated and it is back again.

Case C: R2D2 - R2 had probably one of our worst cases of wry neck - or next to the worst. I thought for sure a couple of times we might lose him - and laugh as much as you will - but using the Rabbit Medicine Chest products every 15 minutes for 4 hours stopped him from rolling....after 3 days of having it every 3-5 hours...he was sitting up pretty well. Anytime R2 gets in a draft or gets a bit dehydrated ...we struggle with it again. I looked at him today and he's doing pretty darn good.

Case D: Blue Max - Blue Max just came down wtih head tilt a bit ago and I have NO idea where it came from. He actually shared a carrier with R2(both boys are intact) during this last episode and I believe that being together helped them both get well faster. 

In each of these four cases - they were my smallest males I have.

Case E: Blueberries N Cream - Talk about a shock....Blueberries was not only a few days from delivering a litter...but large...and suddenly - she had head tilt. The only thing I can think of is that she was by R2's cage and although I had vanodined it....perhaps she caught something? I don't know - I treated the cagewhen I pulled her out. She had her babies (which I fostered out)...that's right - she delivered them just fine even though she couldn't pull fur. I was in shock. Blueberries has been binkying for the last few weeks now and she runs and plays and just has a good old time.

Case F: Our latest case- Baby. At first I thought Baby was fascinated by the ceiling fan because she always loved to sit and look up at it. Then one day I looked at her and it became very obvious that she had wry neck. She had just been weaned...:X Three weeks ago I thought I was going to lose her - she was losing weight rapidly. I would often hold her and say, "Remember our motto, "Baby is going to beat this. Baby is going to beat this."I'd go to bed at night and think, "There is no way Baby will beat this..." but after her second dose of the ivomec - she started picking up and doing better. When we came home from the show this weekend she was doing laps and tripped Art (or tried to) and she dashed out the open door so we had to catch her. She still has a bit of a head tilt when she's tired - but other than that - you wouldn't know she'd been sick.

I just rememebered - we did have one case that died - a baby that was about 2 weeks old in September of 2005...maybe 3 weeks old. The eyeswere open but it developed head tilt and was gone within just a few days. It was heartbreaking.

Anyway - that is my experience.

Peg
*
Haley wrote: *


> The only thing Im wondering,is there a difference between head tilt treatment when its due to anear infection and when its due to something like EC? Do you know, Peg?
> 
> Because I think with Penelope, if Im remembering right, it was something that came on very quickly, which makes me think ear infection. Did your vet look in the ears of give you ear drops?
> 
> Im just wondering if treatment of head tilt depends on which is causing it?


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## Haley (Mar 20, 2007)

Does she appear to be itching her ears or anything like that? And is the head tilt full blown or just slight? Do you have a pic?

Its difficult because I think treatment is different depending on whats causing the tilt. The treatment Peg uses and is successful with is (I think) for a parasite. An ear infection can also cause tilt,but that would be something to treat with an antibiotic.

If your vet isnt sure on the exact cause, it might be best to try Peg's suggestions ust in case. Id rather do too much treatment than not enough.


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## f_j (Mar 20, 2007)

She doesn't seem to be itching her ears or anything. The head tilt is slight, not like the more extreme pictures I've seen. Sometimes it is difficult to see the tilt, other times it is more obvious. I don't have a picture but I can take one tomorrow.


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## f_j (Mar 20, 2007)

Peg - thank you for sharing your experiences. It gives me hope that Penelope will get through this. I'm just a little overwhelmed with all of the information about this condition - it is a bit confusing.


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## TinysMom (Mar 20, 2007)

I'm back from a late night supper w/ my hubby....thought I'd check in on this thread.

I will say this....most of the breeders I know personally follow Barbi Brown's methods as a "first line" of treatment for head tilt. If we don't see results by the second dose of ivomec then it isn't ecunniculi. 

HOWEVER...I have yet to see it not work out...and the treatment is so inexpensive.

The ivomec paste was under $10 I think. The piperazine was about $4 at the feed store (it is a de wormer). I've been advised to use Safeguard(panacur) with my ones that still have a bit of a tilt to help them and I'm goign to start that later this week....and the echinacea was about$6 for 100 capsules. If you have someone around who has horses - they may already have the stuff and let you use some since it only takes 1drop of piperazine per pound of weight and a tiny amount of ivomec.

I will say that I do look at their ears a bit but I don't have anything to go in and look at them - but even then with ear infection - I find myself wondering if it is the e cunniculi manifesting itself somehow.

Good luck with the treatment - your rabbit can have a long and healthy life - even with head tilt. If you looked at Baby now...and she was my most recent "victim" - you might wonder if she had head tilt...barely...but then she'd start running laps and you'd be like,"nope..must be my imagination...".

Peg


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## Haley (Mar 20, 2007)

*f_j wrote: *


> I'm just a little overwhelmed with all of the information about this condition - it is a bit confusing.


It is very confusing! Like a lot of illnesses with rabbits, there just isnt enough info and research out there. Thats why this forum is so great because we as pet owners, rescuers, and breeders, can share our experiences to hopefully make things a little easier on ourselves and our bunnies. Its amazing how much info I get off here and the internet that my vet has no clue about (and its usually the right info!).

If I were you,I wouldtry Barbi's suggestions on her web page, maybe print them out and show them to your vet if your enervous about doing it on your own? 

I'll be praying for your little one. You've been through too much lately


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## Maureen Las (Mar 20, 2007)

Several months ago my friend in Ill. told me one of her female buns had veryslight head tilt. She went to an exotics vet who diagnosed an ear infection but did not prescribe drops for the ear but only Baytril.

I thought to myself that this was not adequate treatment but didn't say anything. To my surprise and a happiness her bun recovered completely.

I am not saying this is the norm but it does sometimes occur..I guess


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## TinysMom (Mar 20, 2007)

I just want to point out that although Barbi Brown talks about what she does and gives recommendations...she also tells folks AT THE TOP of the page to go to a rabbit-savy vet. I'm sure she does this partly for legal reasons....

But still yet....she states that she is giving her opinion based upon her experiences...

Peg


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## JadeIcing (Mar 20, 2007)

It is something you can fight as Peg stated she has. I also have my route was the vet. Baytril helped keep his under control but his was severe.

I know several rabbit owners who have gone the baytril route and buns are happy healthy little guy.


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## naturestee (Mar 20, 2007)

One thing I will say is that Baytril, while often effective for ear infections (one cause of head tilt), will not do anything to treat E. cuniculi- another major cause of head tilt. IMO if the vet isn't sure exactly what caused the headtilt, it's best if both these possible causes are treated for. Vets usually prescribe Panacur for EC, although Barbi Brown's Ivermectin treatment has had some very good results too.

Have you checked the Rabbit Health References? There's lots of info there. You could print some of it out and bring it to your vet if you have questions.
Head Tilt


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## JadeIcing (Mar 20, 2007)

Yup all that and more.


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## Maureen Las (Mar 20, 2007)

I have to admit none of my buns have hadhead tilt but with all this good info I would feel much better in getting it treated if it occurred. I did not know specifically that ec head tilt did not respond to baytril but I just thought that it was too conservative a treatment for any head-tilt
Now I know why it happened to help my friends bunny with an ear infection.

I never heard of barbi brown tx and thanks peg


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## f_j (Mar 20, 2007)

Thank you everyone. I am taking Penelope back into the vet on Friday morning, so I will discuss the alternative treatment with her then. So far the head tilt is still very slight and doesn't seem to be getting any worse, thank goodness.


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## TinysMom (Mar 20, 2007)

Its no problem - I heard about her from some breeders if I remember right when I had my first wry neck case.

My concern about using baytril (if it isn't an ear infection) is the fact that I thought the rabbits could build up antibodies or something against the medicine so it wouldn't be as effective in the future. 

Plus when I had my first wry neck case and called the vet ~ they had not really experienced it and said I could maybe try the baytril I had on hand but that many times rabbit suffer so much that they need to be put down.

I mentioned this to a breeder and when she got done fussing - (I had to put the phone away from my ear for a bit due to her language and tone)~ she said..."ok..now here is what you do...".

*I think vets are great - I really do*. I just think that many times they have limited experience with rabbits and I don't think there's much of a way to keep up on rabbit research like maybe dogs and cats....whereby breeders deal with rabbits every day and we often network and stuff...

I'm probably not making sense.

Anyway, I'm not saying don't go to your vet and don't do what the vet says. But I would take along the information from Barbi's site and get their input.

Oh - and in the head tilt cases I've had - it was so severe they could not keep their balance and would roll and their eyes were really funky.

Also - in each case, they were usually better within 2 weeks - maybe a slight head tilt - but not a lot. I also need to give them ivomec every 3 months for prevention....

Peg*

angieluv wrote: *


> I never heard of barbi brown tx and thanks peg


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## rabb1tmad (Mar 20, 2007)

I have experienced head tilt with both of my bunnies but we have yet to establish what caused the tilt. 

For Lacey my vet suspected ear infection or e-cuniculi and gave treatment for both - Baytril (orally), Panacur and an anti-inflammatory. Lacey's tilt was not as severe as others I have seen but she did have nystagmus - her eye rolled up and down inarhythmical motion - this stopped after the anti-inflammatory. She has recovered extremely well - left witha very slight residual tilt no-one else even notices. She was a little off balance to start with but has adapted and is back to normal now - it took around 6 months for this to happen.

Starsky had a tilt only whlist sleeping and this was accompanied by loss of balance (hind legs only). He was also shaking his head a lot and scratching his ears. Again, he is being treated for ear infection and e-cuniculi again using Baytril (orally) and Panacur.He was tested for e-cuniculi but all the vets can tell from this result is that he has been exposed to the parasite at some point in his life.Starsky isn't 100% but his tilt has completely gone and his balance is back to normal.

What I don't know is if it was the Baytril or the Panacur that worked. But I will say the same as others - if the e-cuniculi treatment isn't working after a few days it is unlikely to be that. If Baytril isn't working then your vet may consider a combination of other antibiotics. Panacur is so cheap though that if you start a course it doesn't do any harm to complete it. 

The fact that Penelope is eating and drinking is a really good sign. I felt sick every time I saw my rabbits with their tilt but they both seem ok now.

This link may help although I wouldn't read too much into the prognosis sections as I think they tend to look at worst case scenarios.Personally I have heard about morepositive outcomes to head tilt than negative -http://www.mth.kcl.ac.uk/~llandau/Homepage/Rabbit/headtilt.html


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## f_j (Mar 20, 2007)

Peg - I have one questions about Barbi's method. Is only for those severe cases where the head tilt is so bad they are rolling? Or can I do it with Penelope even though hers is so slight?


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## f_j (Mar 20, 2007)

rabb1tmad - thanks for sharing your experiences. I believe Panacur is what my vet is planning to try after Friday if the Baytril hasn't worked. 

I will definitely bring in the info on Barbi's methods...Peg, do you think it is a bad idea to treat her with both Panacur and Barbi's method?


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## TinysMom (Mar 20, 2007)

I think the best thing for me to do is to quote what Barbi says....

~~

[align=center]ALTERNATIVE TREATMENTS[/align][align=left]Many rabbit savvy vets are now using Albendazole and Fenbendazole (Panacur) to treat Wry neck with excellent success. The difference in the bendazoles and Ivomec is that Ivomec remains in the sytem longer and the bendazoles are elimated more quickly so must be administered daily for up to four months and some vets recommend continuing it for life. Regular blood work is required as well to monitor possible liver damage. The Ivomec appears to work quickly with maintenance dose every 3 months. There seems to be some evidence however that Albendazole actually reduces the cysts whereas Ivomec seems to just stop the migration and multiplication. I have about 80% recovery with Ivomec but have added the Albendazole treatment for stubborn cases and have only had a couple respond and it took 4 months. [/align]


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## TinysMom (Mar 20, 2007)

I think it was Blue Max who had minor head tilt....I don't remember for sure - but I looked at him one day and he looked a bit tilted and I said, "oh no...we're gonna nip this in the bud" and started him right away.

When R2 &amp; Puck came down with it - they went from being what appeared to be perfectly normal - to rolling - within minutes. In fact,the day Puck came down with it, my husband and I had taken our son back to college and were driving home when our daughter called on the cellphone and said she was holding Puck but he was rolling continiously and couldn't get his balance and how far away from home were we and what should we do?

I think part of the reason we almost lost R2 was he was so darn dehydrated - I check his water bottle every day (all of the water bottles) but apparently something had clogged it or whatever...I don't know. Also, we'd had the back door open and he was right in the draft(but it was like 60 degrees!!). Stil yet, it set him off pretty bad...and he's really little.

With Puck, I was afraid we were going to lose him the day after I medicated him. He was weak and limp and I remember giving him to Art to hold and say "goodbye" to him because I just knew we were going to lose him within the hour.

Art cuddled up with him in his arms and slept for 3 hours with him...then spent the rest of that day giving him water in a syringe even though he only wanted to sleep. 

Me? I knew he was going to die. He was limp. He was weak. He was...just not quite right.

But within 6 hours - he was sitting up somewhat. I think that the medications just really wiped him out and made him exhausted - and to this day, I honestly believe that Art gave him the will to live just by sleeping with him and holding him in his arms.

Anyway, I'm not an expert and I'm not saying don't talk to your vet,etc. But Barbi's site is there so folks can talk to their vets about alternative treatments....

And I'm sorry I ramble so much!

Peg

P.S. Giving the echinacea with my last experiences made a MAJOR MAJOR difference! I was shocked at how much quicker they responded.

I'm also convinced that instead of having them sit in a cage - they need to be put in an exercise pen or allowed to have full running of a room because once mine hit the point where they can sit up fairly well- the running seems to help them - and trust me - they will run.Sometimes it is in circles at first....but it seems to do something for them - I don't know if it gives them confidence or what..
*
f_j wrote: *


> Peg - I have one questions about Barbi's method. Is only for those severe cases where the head tilt is so bad they are rolling? Or can I do it with Penelope even though hers is so slight?


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## polly (Mar 20, 2007)

Yet again it makes me wish I had found this forum earlier. Dido was put to sleep because of head tilt it was his second bout and the first was severe the second was horrible to watch and worse he had been to the vets for injections but it seemed to make him worse i had noticed that although he kept a good appetite he seemed quite skinny he would have been 7 this month now i feel really crap cause i think if i had found this forum i would not have taken that horrible decision. 

I hope Barbis info works out for you.


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## f_j (Mar 20, 2007)

Peg - You say that the medications wiped Puck out...was that just because he was already really sick? Or will Barbi's method have that effect on Penelope? My concern is that she is acting completely normal, and I don't want to make her_ worse _by treating her with something too strong.


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## TinysMom (Mar 20, 2007)

Looking back on it, I think Puck was dehydrated still when I gave him the medication and it just wiped him out. I say that because Art kept giving him stuff from a syringe (confession time- it was Rabbit Medicine Chest stuff heavily mixed w/ pedialyte) and he perked up again....

But he really did give me a scare.

I've thought about it several times though and that was the main difference between Puck and the others - I don't think I got him rehydrated enough for the meds and I think I probably should have held off a day on the meds till he was hydrated better - or at least 12hours or so.

Then again - I was crying and called both my kids and asked them to pray for him - so who knows - maybe it was the prayers that made the difference? or Art holding him? (He and Art have a special bond). 

All I know is - the only difference between him and the others was he was not as well hydrated.

Peg


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## f_j (Mar 23, 2007)

We're taking Penelope to the vet today. What do you guys think about the whole issue of having her spayed? Is it too risky? I'll see what the vet says too...I was nervous enough with what happened to Lola, and now with head tilt on top of this I don't know how I will ever handle having her spayed. This is hard.


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## lalena2148 (Mar 23, 2007)

Ok, I thought I'd give my:twocents. I have a rabbit w/ a slight tilt. When he first got it, he was rolling badly. I took him to the vet the next morning.

At the vets, the rolling had stopped but he was not walking straight.The vet said he was sure it was an inner ear infection, because my bun had a previous severe upper res infection. So, even though from where he could see the ears looked fine, his diagnosis was more towards that then E. Cuniculi. For the inner ear infection, he prescribed oral Baytril for 2 weeks (no ear drops). He was also on Meclizine for his dizziness for 5 days.

My bun is now doing just fine. He still has a slight tilt but he is 100% better then he was. 

However, if he didn't get better from the Baytril, the vet was going to do a full blood work up to see if he had E. Cuniculi. I would suggest that if Baytril doesn't work. The method that Peg posted also seemed to help a lot of people's buns. 

Good luck w/ Penelope at the vets today! :hug:

Also, I'd wait to get her spayed until she's better health wise.

EDIT: BTW, before he was diagnosed w/ an inner ear infection, he wasn't rubbing/scratching his ears or shaking his head.


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## Haley (Mar 23, 2007)

yeah, I think I would wait until she is bette rto have her spayed. You dont want to put her under with a comprmised immune system, especially because of your recent loss from a spay 

I hope your appt goes well, keep us posted.


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## f_j (Mar 23, 2007)

Our vet visit went well. The vet noticed some improvement with the Baytril (although since her head tilt is so slight, it is difficult to detect the change), so she wants to keep her on the Baytril for two more weeks, then monitor her condition for two weeks after that without medication. If she is well enough then we will go through with the spay. I am relieved that it won't be for at least a month. I did discuss the alternative treatment with her and she said she wanted to look into it,as she belongs to a network of exotic pet vets around the world and she wanted to do a search among them first. Well, she got back tome later in the day and said that there is conflicting information on it but that the general consensus is that it does not work.She said that that treatment is available over the counter and therefore easily accessible, but that she doesn't feel comfortable with it. I am not disputing the experiences of the members here who have used it, I think it is great if it worked for them, however for now I am going to follow what my vet says as I want her to continue to treat Penelope and so far the head tilt is not bad at all - in fact,it is a bit better. I am just thankful that it hasn't gotten bad enough to really affect her life or behavior in any way *knock on wood*. Thanks to everyone here who have helped me understand this very confusing condition, and thanks especially for all of the support.


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## TinysMom (Mar 23, 2007)

That is really great that your baby is getting better and that you could talk to your vet about this. I really hope she does well and continues to get well.

Based on my experience and how quickly mine have gotten over head tilt,I am going to continue following Barbi's methods - but even she says on her site that it is something she recommends that folks take to the vet for a discussion about.

Please keep us updated on your little girl! I'm really really happy she's doing better.

Peg


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## f_j (Mar 23, 2007)

Thanks Peg!! And thank you so much for all of the information you shared, it was really helpful and your experiences give me hope that she will live a long, healthy life. I definitely think you should continue what you are doing since you have had such success with it. If Penelope ever does get worse and the Baytril stops working, I would still consider using Barbi's method.


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## Haley (Apr 9, 2007)

How isPenelope doing, f_j? Ive been thinking of her.ray:


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## f_j (Apr 9, 2007)

Thanks Haley. She's doing well. We finished with the Baytril and she has been stable...the tilt hasn't gotten worse and sometimes we can't see it at all. She has been booked to be spayed on April 26th, assuming nothing changes. Thanks for thinking of my girl.I'm just so thankful that her head tilt didn't get serious.


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## naturestee (Apr 9, 2007)

That's great! Keep us updated on her, especially with her upcoming spay.


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## Haley (Apr 10, 2007)

Great news! I'll be praying for your girl and I hope she continues to improve and that her spay goes well. Keep us posted


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## f_j (Apr 10, 2007)

Thanks so much naturestee and Haley. I honestly don't think she even knew anything was wrong with her! She's such a happy bunny and continues to binky around the living room more than ever. I'll definitely keep you guys posted...I am nervous about her spay but I also feel really good about this vet, and I am confident that Penelope is one tough cookie!


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