# Velvet Lions? Really??



## wendymac (Mar 6, 2012)

This guy is advertising on our local classifieds. Notice he does say they aren't recognized, but then fails to mention that neither are Lionheads?

http://www.foxawayrabbits.com/velvetlions.html


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## MiniLopHop (Mar 6, 2012)

That's weird. Why would you put a mane on a rex? Isn't the whole point of a rex the softness of the hair being all the same length? I agree it's misleading not to say that lionheads aren't recognised. 

Honestly it sounds a lot like your other post, someone stupid mixing breeds and trying to pass them off as something new and special. In dogs it is a mutt (nothing wrong with a mutt) and for the rabbits it's a mix. You can't have a pure bread mix.

Sorry, I am so grumpy today. A clear fluid diet seems to wash away my mouth filter


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## CCWelch (Mar 6, 2012)

You would think that they would try to get the Lionheads approved before adding them to something else...geez


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## ZRabbits (Mar 6, 2012)

*CCWelch wrote: *


> You would think that they would try to get the Lionheads approved before adding them to something else...geez



Yep, you would think. 

Sorry wouldn't buy one if the Good Lord came down and told me I had to. 

If I wanted a Rex I'd buy a Rex. Actually it just looks like a Rex with a bushy head. lol 

Gee, looks like the same thing that happened to the Silver Fox. People wanted meaty and threw everything but the kitchen sink into that breed. All for money. Just like this guy. 

Thankfully there are people out here that care what the Lion Head should look like.

K


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## wendymac (Mar 6, 2012)

I was shaking my head, too. And I couldn't figure out why you'd take a very short, very dense coat (that feels like velvet) and breed it with a long, silky coat.

I guess you can make a mix, and create a breed. The Californian was a mix of Hims and Chins that were then bred to NZs. But that was for a specific purpose. Not sure where the moron is going with the two different fur types. LOL


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## ZRabbits (Mar 7, 2012)

Anyone who buys a bunny from this breeder (and I use that term lightly) deserves exactly what they get. Assuming means nothing. 

The only thing I feel for is the bunnies. 

We don't need mad scientists of the rabbit world. Amazing what happens when the economy tanks. People say "NEW AND UNIQUE" and this is the way they define their accidents, experiments and mistakes. 

Oh well, like I said, takes all kinds to make a world, and don't ever be surprised. 

K


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## LakeCondo (Mar 7, 2012)

The site says the 'breed' began to be developed in 2006, so at least 5 years ago, so they aren't just mistakes.

And I'll also give them props for saying about one of the rabbits they're offering, that he's not that friendly. Most sellers would try to hide that fact.

So, no thanks, but who knows?


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## Ruki (Mar 7, 2012)

so weird! I found this website that has info on them and lots of pics...
http://www.foxawayrabbits.com/velvetlionshome.html


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## ZRabbits (Mar 7, 2012)

*Ruki wrote: *


> so weird! I found this website that has info on them and lots of pics...
> http://www.foxawayrabbits.com/velvetlionshome.html



If you look at the first post, that's the same site posted above.



And not an accident per the site,Lake. That's really scary. Since 2006 they have been developing this. And it's the first time it comes up? I've read about Lion Heads in many, many publications. 

Sorry a rex is a rex and a Lion Head is a lion head (single or double) and to seea bunny with lovely soft shortfur with aMane that's easier to manage,No tangles. LOLEasy to groom because it's not wool. So if you want something easier to groom than a Lion Headthat haswool, why not get a Rex. Geez. 



K


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## LakeCondo (Mar 7, 2012)

I'm sure that's exactly what people said when other breeds were developed, Kar


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## ZRabbits (Mar 7, 2012)

*LakeCondo wrote: *


> I'm sure that's exactly what people said when other breeds were developed, Kar



Sure, but if you want an "easy to clean" rabbit, get a rex. Oh that's right, it's easy. 

It's just like the Altrex rabbit, a commercial bunny that gets fat fast. Doesn't do good as a Mother, smaller litters, but hey those bunnies grow fast. 

BTW, Kar? lol South Philly saying. Do they shorten everyone's name in Chicago too?

K


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## pamnock (Mar 11, 2012)

Could someone post a photo of one from the site? My router isn't working and I can't access some sites. They sound incredible!


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## ZRabbits (Mar 11, 2012)

*pamnock wrote: *


> Could someone post a photo of one from the site? My router isn't working and I can't access some sites. They sound incredible!



http://www.foxawayrabbits.com/velvetlionsherd.html

Hope this helps. 

Shame they are taking the wool out of the breed so it's easy and neat. Not much of a lionhead look though. More like a rex with a little hair between their ears. 

But then again, I'm not a judge. Just someone who's been studying very intensely the Lionhead breed and it's struggle with ARBA status. 

K


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## wendymac (Mar 11, 2012)

I agree, they don't much resemble a lionhead at all.


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## Shaded Night Rabbitry (Mar 14, 2012)

pamnock wrote:


> Could someone post a photo of one from the site? My router isn't working and I can't access some sites. They sound incredible!



Here Pam. This has, by my opinion, the nicest mane of any. The rest, for the most part, are SM and just sort of look fuzzy.
Sorry about the size, it's what they have it set to and I don't feel like downloading, editing, and reuploading right now.

(EDIT: Okay, so that picture was over 2000 x 1500... Got unlazy and fixed it.)






And I just want to put a note out there... I feel rather upset with those of you that say this is just 'experimenting'. Let people breed for what they want to breed for, so long as they are doing it responibly. 

On their about velvet lions page, they clearly state that this is not an arba recognized breed. (They do, however, say that they hope it will one day be... This frankly, is likely a false hope. Lionheads will pass their COD long before these do, and they won't have the "2 difference" rule on their side.)

Would I personally have them? No. I don't generally like lionanythings. (However, I saw ONE lionlop that I would have taken, had it been in the USA) But should people be allowed to breed for what they want to? Yes. Elsewise it opens the door to all those issues surrounding even the recognized breed breeders. If the authorities take away the right to breed "velvet lions" then whats to say that they won't take away my right to have Ermine Netherlands, or Tort Otters? Those are just as unshowable as those rexed lionheads are.

And on another note, purebred simply means that they reproduce the qualities when bred to like kind, through 3 generations. Otherwise, Netherland Dwarfs wouldn't be purebred. They'd still be a mutt cross of a dutch and a wild agouti rabbit. Lionheads would simple be a mutt cross of netherlands, and (what? jerseys? I haven't paid much attention). 

Not to mention all the breeds that would be dead right now without outcrossing. I'm a firm believer that you simply HAVE to get the hybrid vigor in there at some point. Elsewise the gene pool becomes too small and you run into issues. That's why I see no harm in breeding, say, new zealands to cinnamons. How often do you see a cinnamon that doesn't look like some scary.. I'm not even sure.

Heck, I, myself, plan on breeding american sables to silver martens to create more of the sable variety of silver marten. Why? Because I've only ever seen two, and that's in /photos/... And they.. were not even close to the type of the blacks. So, why not recreate them? Obviously there was a way the shaded gene got in there in the first place... It certainly didn't just 'mutate' from blacks or blues. 

Annnnd Megan's done ranting now, sorry.


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## ZRabbits (Mar 14, 2012)

You have the right to do whatever you want to do. And no one is trying to stop you, but you need to step back and see the heartache and sweat and tears that is going into getting the Lionhead recognized. And when we see or hear someone playing with the Lionhead gene, which IS the basis of a Lionhead and how fragile it is, it gets people a little upset. The single manes are struggling to keep their mane while the DM are being washed out by other breeds such as Rexes and Lops. And changing the complete look of what was originally set out to show. 

It's nothing against you, but you don't understand how hard it has been for others to bring this breed to light. I'm totally new to this so I see it differently than what others see who have been into it for years. And not every breeder is responsible like you. Playing with different breeds to enhance one or bring forth one that you are looking to create IS a responsibility and if not done correctly will in time hurt others when these rabbits find their way into other rabbitries or into hands of someone new like me. 

That's why I'm am thoroughly researching this breed I want to breed. I am thoroughly researching the background of the stock I purchase. And I have spoken to many lionhead breeders and heard their stories. It's a very fragile gene and need to be protected and strengthened. 

Again I repeat, never an attack on anyone. It's something that needs to be put out there so people know what's being created with the DM lionhead so that this genetic mutation is not lost or diluted. 

Wishing you luck in your future endeavors with Ermine and Otters. 

K


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## Samara (Mar 14, 2012)

Shaded Night Rabbitry wrote:


> pamnock wrote:
> 
> 
> > Could someone post a photo of one from the site? My router isn't working and I can't access some sites. They sound incredible!
> ...




I think you have a lot of valid points. My opinion is that due to the enormity of irresponsible breeders (I myself had an accidental litter, so I perpetuated the issue), we are all sort of...defensive when it comes to someone throwing breeds together. 

I personally think it would be neat to mish mash breeds to see what's produced, but as others said above - responsibly. Provide homes, love, care, and don't outnumber yourself so your others suffer. 

And spay/neuter those creations! You never know if they will swoop into a breeding program and muck up a line that's been hard at work. 

I'm with you Megan...to each their own, as long as the brain AND heart are being used, not the need for profit.


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## Samara (Mar 14, 2012)

Ahh...sweet, sweet heated debate in the morning.


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## wendymac (Mar 14, 2012)

There are a lot of breeds that were crossed, to get what they are now. 

The Californian was created by crossing the Himalayan with the standard Chin...and those babies then crossed with New Zealands. Purpose: Great meat animal with a good pelt.

French Lops were created by crossing English Lops and Flemish Giants. Purpose: creating a meat rabbit.

Holland Lops were created by crossing French Lops with Netherland Dwarf. I guess the purpose was a small pet? 

All breeds are like this. They started somewhere. However, I don't understand the purpose of breeding two separate hair coats together, losing the distinction of both breeds in the process.


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## pamnock (Mar 14, 2012)

It's too bad that the rex mutation shortens the mane so much


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## Shaded Night Rabbitry (Mar 14, 2012)

pamnock wrote:


> It's too bad that the rex mutation shortens the mane so much



Right there with you. They'd be decently pretty with a full mane. 

As a response to other's replies;
I'm well aware of the problems the lionhead breed has faced. I've been watching over the years. It's comparable to the frustrations any COD holders have to go through. If I felt like "rumor" spreading I could tell about the ridiculousness Blue Tort ND went through. Not as long of a drawn out process, but just as bad in the short.

I don't think any responsible lionhead breeder would add these rabbits to their program. A step back in mane, coat, type, not to mention adding in the recessive rex gene. 

HOWEVER, the no-mane by products are simply mini rex. I'm not aware if these are sold to mini rex breeders. I wouldn't see a problem with it, if they had type and were mane-free. This person is also a mini rex breeder (seemingly a lot more so then these velvet lions), so this is just a secondary breed to what I think is their main.


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## Skybunny11 (Mar 14, 2012)

I don't see the purpose in them, honestly. I get cross breeding, once I get finances sort out and build up a nice shed for my bunnies I plan on attempting to create something new (not going into details right now) but its got a point to it. Creating a smaller Angora type rabbit rabbit for easier care because some people (like myself) love angoras but I understand a lot of people can't handle their size and the amount of fur you have to deal with. I don't get why he would create this rabbit though, for one, a lot of his bunnies don't look too much alike. A few of them don't even seem to have the same type of body or fur. He doesn't really state the purpose of the breed except to have a rex with a mane pretty much, nothing about personality or usefullness.


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## wendymac (Mar 14, 2012)

Well, it says on one part of the sight that it was to get rabbits smaller than a mini rex. What I don't get is why the lionhead and not something small that can be bred true...like a ND.

I don't understand the mane gene. Can it be recessive, and only show up on babies if the other rabbit carries it, too? Or is it a case of either having the gene (and being able to see the mane) or not?


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## LakeCondo (Mar 14, 2012)

I think it's more important to encourage people to know what to expect before getting a rabbit than to worry about experiments like this. It's not as though someone's created a hairless rabbit strain or anything that bizarre.


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## LakeCondo (Mar 14, 2012)

I think it's more important to encourage people to know what to expect before getting a rabbit than to worry about experiments like this. It's not as though someone's created a hairless rabbit strain or anything that bizarre.


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## ZRabbits (Mar 15, 2012)

*Shaded Night Rabbitry wrote: *


> pamnock wrote:
> 
> 
> > It's too bad that the rex mutation shortens the mane so much
> ...



Well, I have to respectfully disagree regarding the many going through a frustrating situation of getting a COD. From what I've seen this has been the Lionhead's issue since 2000 when it first started here in the USA. And since I don't start "rumors", I think maybe you need to look back just a bit and see what's really going on. I researched this breed from the very beginning, including the laboratory data. And none of it's logical in what other groups are doing to this breed. Lops and Rexes. Just like you stated to Lindsey in another thread, the giants are in trouble. And why? Because of experimenting. 

Example: Silver Fox. Who was there to help those rabbits? They are almost non-existing because of experimenting for a better meat rabbit. See the rabbit realm runs many avenues of interest. 

Regarding responsible lionhead breeders, yes there are many, but my question is if you know the issues that the lionhead breeders are going through for this "Way TOO long period of time", why would you want to create another "glitch" in the machinery.

And I feel bad for the Mini Rex Breeders who could get this "Mm" gene in their breeding program if one of these "Rex mixes" gets sold without someone knowledge. And eventually will get into a breeder who doesn't know. Even a good breeder stands a chance of mixing. 

I'm not saying anything that you can't do what you want to do, but experimenting with the lionhead breed is making the struggle a little harder. 

No rumors here. Just facts. If you are seriously concerned about the Lionhead, and you realize the struggles, you would be concerned that these "experiments" are disheartening. The Lionhead Breeders that I know, and grant you, I haven't been a rabbitry very long, are concerned with reason and will protect their breed from mixes.
This DM gene is very fragile. Not unstable, but fragile. And it must be protected for the longevity of this Handsome Rabbit. 

If you feel this is an "angry" reply, it's not. It's a concerned reply with lots of facts behind it. 

Let the breed be recognized first before you start mixing other breeds, that are established already, into it. That's all I'm saying. 

K


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## Samara (Mar 15, 2012)

^ I can respect that.


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## audrinasmommy88 (Mar 20, 2012)

So, I just found this on craigslist. Someone selling mini rex/lionhead buns. It made me think on this topic

http://norfolk.craigslist.org/pet/2911486428.html


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## Samara (Mar 20, 2012)

^ Those look like dutch/rex mixes to me... :? What in the world is that person breeding?


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## audrinasmommy88 (Mar 20, 2012)

I have no idea but you saw the title "mini rex/ lion head". I didnt think it looked right to me either. The harlequin coloring is nice though


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## Samara (Mar 20, 2012)

Definitely nice. They're cute little mixes.


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## Blaze_Amita (Mar 21, 2012)

Velvet Lion and Lion Lops too. I've seen quite a few people working on Lion Lops(a holland lop with a mane- no thanks!)

I'm just waiting to see if they try to go for the velvet lion lop- lol, sorry I shouldn't be laughing but I've seen pictures of Velvet Lions with much better manes than those ones. And even Lion Lops with much better manes. I don't remember how I found them it was so long ago. It can be done, it will just take a LOT of time and patience and selective breeding and culling.


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## Blaze_Amita (Mar 31, 2012)

http://www.freewebs.com/lilysrabbitholewarren/thevelvetlion.htm


That's the one I had found before. They are OKAY looking, but I much prefer the shorter ears on the lions. I am great friends with a lion head breeder and she has the most awesome ears on her lions, clean and short, very nice looking lion heads.


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## Nela (Apr 2, 2012)

To be honest, I don't see what the difference is with these and other breeds of rabbits in the sense that, most of our rabbit breeds are created from mixes. All the mini versions, plush lops (I believe even lops as a wholewere bred down from buns with poor ear control or something?), woolies, etc. would happen to fall into that category. The thing that irks me more was the 'careful culling' which makes me think that this breeder was culling for looks and type rather than for health reasons and that really bothers me, especially since the breeder decided to 'invent' this new breed. Argh! But really in the end, it would be really hard for me to take arms against this breeder because it would be illogical to me seeing how so many other breeds were created by being mixed in the first place. Does it look like it's paying off at this point? No, not really. Doesn't look like a rabbit that looks significantly different. Will it in the future? Maybe, maybe not. I just feel sorry for the little guys caught in the whole 'experimenting phase'.


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## paper.bunny (Apr 2, 2012)

I agree with everything Nela said.
I always see on Gumtree which is like craigslist I think,
people advertising kits that are angora's cross with mini lops (holland lops)

and I find it really cruel because they aren't even thinking about any health problems that could have come up for the kit later in it's life 

On another note. I do love that Velvet Lion on the first page. Not that I'm supporting it or anything. But he looks like a really kind soul that I just want to snuggle


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## LindseyG (Apr 2, 2012)

They are ok looking but the ones on that page aren't very good quality at all. on my local craigslist I keep seeing the same "breeder" breeding angora x lionhead crosses and selling them. What is the point in that? 
http://atlanta.craigslist.org/eat/grd/2932533577.html

http://atlanta.craigslist.org/eat/grd/2923716333.html


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