# We have decided...



## Becca (Sep 16, 2008)

I know that a lot of you may think it is wrong but we have thought it through and worked it out.

We have decided well it was dads idea to breed Dippy and Fluffball. We will proberly do it when the new bun has settled in.


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## Luvmyzoocrew (Sep 16, 2008)

Good luck to Dippy and Fluffball


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## Becca (Sep 16, 2008)

I don't understand why are you sad?

No one moaned at this thread

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=39304&forum_id=8

This is exactly what happened last time - I have been on this forum long enough to know that there are risks.


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## Becca (Sep 16, 2008)

Okay luvmycrew I'm sorry - You didn't have to edit your post You can change it back I just don't understand


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## Luvmyzoocrew (Sep 16, 2008)

no no no it is ok, i just realized it was the rabbitry and show room and i try to stay out because of things i feel, but i usually just pull up new posts and didnt realize what area it was in, i appologize. And i do wish the best to the both of them.


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## Becca (Sep 16, 2008)

You don't have to aploligise (sp?)


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## polly (Sep 16, 2008)

becca the reason no one moaned at DublinPerkys thread is because she is part of a 4H programme which is american and designed to teach people about animals and breeding them is part of it. they do it for other things to. 

We don't have 4H in the UK and while it could well be a good idea, breeding for breedings sake with no reason behind it other than getting babies is not really a very good idea. If your parents are that keen on rabbits and breeding them then perhaps you should all contact the BRC (which you can do through the website) and do it as a hobby where you breed and show to improve a breed and have the fun of making friends through the rabbit fancy. WHy not go along to a show with your parents and see if they want to be involved they and you may well find showing rabbits a lot of fun and maybe you could go onto breeding them from there if that is what you all want to do.

also just want to check because I know you got them at the same time but are dippy and fluffball not brother and sister if they are then please do not breed them no one would breed siblings together you risk a lot of genetic problems.


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## Becca (Sep 16, 2008)

No they are not brother and sister - Dippy is older.

And I'm not breeding for no reason - thats like saying a couple is having a baby for no reason if they are not doing it to improve the child....


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## polly (Sep 16, 2008)

couples can choose for themselves rabbits dont its your decision.If you have a specific reason for mating your rabbits then put them down and peoplewill understand why you want to mate them. its easier than you getting defensive if you have good reason for what you are doing. (not trying to be nasty) 

I still think you should consider as a family going to a show you obviously love your rabbits it would be a good hobby for your whole familymost shows run pet classes and you would be able to put fluffball and Dippy in and see what you think. You dont have to breed to show either you can just get the rabbits you want to show with


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## Becca (Sep 16, 2008)

My family don't love rabbits - Its only me I love them passionalty sp? Dad just said it so I just thought about it and said okay, It will be a fun experience and I love rabbits - mum and dad won't take me to shows - its not my fault


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## polly (Sep 16, 2008)

well personally I dont agree with what you are doing but good luck I hope it is a good experience for you.


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## Becca (Sep 16, 2008)

:sigh:


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## Phinnsmommy (Sep 16, 2008)

Why not rescue a cute little bunny from a shelter? That way you'll save a life .

If you do decide to breed, good luck.


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## Luvmyzoocrew (Sep 16, 2008)

My major concer with this whole thing is the money situation, which i didnt state very clearly originally that is why i edited. Your parents didnt have money to get Dippy (i am recalling by memory and i could be wrong,lol, preggo brain) fixed so my Major concern that is if something medically comes up down the line with a problem pregnancy then are they going to have the money to take care of that situation. A cesarian, or a sick baby bun , i would think, would be way more expensive then a alteration,KWIM. I hope that if you and your family are doing this that they are aware of the possible monetary situation that could arise from this.


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## Bo B Bunny (Sep 16, 2008)

4H is a program where kids are guided through things like how to breed and for a purpose (showing, improvement of the breed and education)... With that in mind, breeding is a positive thing. 

I think this is true for most animals. Unless they have a real purpose that another homeless animal can serve, then why add to the already overpopulation?


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## Becca (Sep 16, 2008)

I understand what you are all saying and I know you may think I am immature and just want "cute baby bunnies" but that is not the case. My dad said he is willing to take her to the vet and pay as much money as it takes in case something goes wrong. 

He thinks it will be a great experience. I have made a lot of friends on this forum and don't really want to argue with you all.




EDIT: I have just asked if we could adopt a bunny instead but that was a no though I don't understand why.


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## Luvmyzoocrew (Sep 16, 2008)

*BabyBunnies wrote: *


> My dad said he is willing to take her to the vet and pay as much money as it takes in case something goes wrong.




I am happy to hear this, hopefully there will be no complications and the buns will be ok


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## Becca (Sep 16, 2008)

Yup!

I am sure there won't be *fingers crossed* I will just leave her too it and only bother them when I have to - to check babies have been fed and take out any dead ones Also like I said to you earlier Fran i will make a leaflet to give to the babies new homes and go and check out their cage etc!!!

And my mum will take them to the vet if anything happens if I'm out


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## TinysMom (Sep 16, 2008)

I'm in a bit of a hurry as I need to pick Art up soon...but I want to add something to this thread.

First of all, I saw this decision coming a while back....so I'm really not surprised at all. 

And to be honest with you - I really feel bad about your decision to breed. I've "been there...done that" and at times it is heartbreaking. I honestly believe I lost GingerSpice, a beloved pet....because I bred her when I shouldn't have...and her immune system wound up being compromised. I always try to tell people, "never breed a pet...you don't know what can go wrong.."

Secondly, it seems interesting to me that there was no money to get Dippy neutered but suddenly there is money if a doe has problems. I know I've paid out a bunch of money to take does to the vet for their pregnancies...and it can be scary when a doe has problems...but if your parents feel they can handle it ..good.

Honestly - I wish many times I'd never started breeding. There were things about it that were good experiences - but so many that were not good experiences. I may be breeding one or two more litters out of does where the line died off in a barn fire and I've been asked to consider the breeding to revive the line. But even then - I don't know...

With all that said - I think we as a forum need to remember that these are not "our" rabbits...they are BabyBunnies' rabbits and we can not make her decisions for her. We may want to argue till we're blue in the face....we may want to change her mind and have good reasons for wanting to change her mind. We may even have our own personal opinions.

But each and every bunny owner on here has their own beliefs and rights and while we may not agree with them all (and support their decisions in our hearts) - we as a forum are here to help everyone.

I'm not overly thrilled with the decision that's been made....but it isn't my decision and I'm not the one who has to live with it....

Good luck in your breeding and you know where to come if/when you have questions.


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## Becca (Sep 16, 2008)

Thanks I think :?

Even though you are saying that you don't want to influence me etc their my bunnies you are still said:

"I'm not overly thrilled with the decision that's been made....but it isn't my decision and I'm not the one who has to live with it...."

Which made me feel bad - I like to think of bunnies as one of the only things I'm actually good at and sometimes people just make me feel like I'm stupid all over again.


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## Luv-bunniz (Sep 16, 2008)

Becca, nobody thinks your stupid. Nobody wants to be mean, we care about the rabbits. No amount of money for vetbills will guarentee that Fluffball will not lose her life along with her babies, because it can and does often happen. We understand you have researched, you know of risks, you care about the rabbits, but for they're sake, is it worth it?

OK, I may have repeated some stuff I said on MSN. Good luck with whatever you decide.

PS. Breeders - is 9 months too old? I am sorry to throw this into the works but I am not 100% although I am 99.99.99.9% sure it isnt :?


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## Starlight Rabbitry (Sep 16, 2008)

I am not going to judge you...they are your rabbits. I am going to ask how old they both are. A doe should not be bred if she is older than 18 months...some say no older than a year. She will have problems passing the babies and this could be fatal to all.

Sharon


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## Becca (Sep 16, 2008)

I don't know what to do now - I really want to breed. :cry1::cry1:


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## Starlight Rabbitry (Sep 16, 2008)

How old is the doe?


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## Becca (Sep 16, 2008)

She is 9 months exactly today!


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## Luv-bunniz (Sep 16, 2008)

BabyBunnies wrote:


> I don't know what to do now - I really want to breed. :cry1::cry1:


 How about trying to find a local breeder/rescue and helping out there a few times a week? also, if it is a breeder then they will usually have more then one litter a year so you get to see it over and over again, instead of just once. Alot of owners would love to breed, but there is so many risks, and the over-population is just added to that it IS irresponsible to breed without a reason.

PS. again not being mean.


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## clevername (Sep 16, 2008)

*BabyBunnies wrote: *


> I don't know what to do now - I really want to breed. :cry1::cry1:



Is the BRC difficult to join or something? (I honestly don't know, they could have some prerequisites or high fees to join)


I think if you're going to breed rabbits, really go for it. Join rabbit breed clubs, make contacts, mentors. Educate yourself about rabbit genetics and breed standards. Do you have pedigreed animals, if not get some good stock. 

If you really want to breed rabbits, you'll take the time to learn and do it right.


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## Luv-bunniz (Sep 16, 2008)

clevername wrote:


> *BabyBunnies wrote: *
> 
> 
> > I don't know what to do now - I really want to breed. :cry1::cry1:
> ...



Perfect post.


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## Becca (Sep 16, 2008)

How to I join?


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## MissBinky (Sep 16, 2008)

Hey Becca?

Since you love bunnies so much and you want to help them and all and you do have the space and permission from your parents to have more, how about you consider getting into fostering? Many shelters cover the costs of the vet bills and all so you wouldn't be adding financially other than care costs (food, bedding, etc) and you'd be helping others, and you'd get to enjoy cute bunnies...

Most breeders are looking to improve the breed when they make the decision to breed. I don't recall really, but are your rabbits show quality or are they pet quality? Also, do you have their pedigrees and information on their background? Not only that, but sometimes things happen and babies need to be taken care of when the mother doesn't etc., and with school hours and homework it may be difficult...

When I used to help the local SPCA, we were often looking for families for does with litters, babies needing socializing, etc. I think you should consider it


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## polly (Sep 16, 2008)

*clevername wrote: *


> *BabyBunnies wrote: *
> 
> 
> > I don't know what to do now - I really want to breed. :cry1::cry1:
> ...




This is what I was trying to say but perhaps not very well!! It is and should be a difficult decision Becca and that you are thinking hard about it is a good thing not a bad thing!! 

lets put it this way do I love breeding and working with my rabbits I have 29 adult rabbits in my shed at the moment and other than with my new one that I got only on saturday I could tell you everything about each and everyone of them personality their likes and dislikes how the girls behave with their babies!! BUT I have lost a doe in birth and its horrid I found it hard to go into the shed if one of my does was due in case I saw it happen again. Bruce and I have done shifts lasting 3 days for a doe who was having major problems giving birth and eventually we had to help her deliver the kit. I have had to go in and take out dead babies I have seen babies who are not right and had to make the decison to let them pass on peanuts etc I had a lvely baby who i had to try and save at 4 weeks because he lost any body weight he had. And then if you are passing the babies on to people its knowing that they are well cared for which as much as you try you can't always do.

At 9 months she should be fine to breed. 

Oh and Clevername the BRC is very easy to join does cost but they do a junior rate 
edit to add you can go onto teh website Becca its www.thebrc.org and it has a list of the amount to join you would need one of your parenst to do it with a credit or debit card or you can send a cheque in to them.


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## Becca (Sep 16, 2008)

I would love to foster in fact I wanted to adopt buuuuttt for some reason the parents said that i can only breed fluf not get another bun but i said well if we breed fluf we will probs keep one of the babies anyway but they just said no and i dont understand why. I am gonig to give her the link tot his thread so she can see....


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## MissBinky (Sep 16, 2008)

Yeah, with fostering, you wouldn't have to do it continuously With breeding, what will happen if you have a hard time rehoming the litter or if you have a special needs bun? You might have to keep it for a while... Those are things to considerand theyare also thingsyou may want todiscuss with your parents. 

Fostering is lots of fun really. I really enjoyed it. It's nice because you are helping out more than just one bunny. You help out your fosters, you help out by providing space for other bunnies at the shelter, you help the shelter employeesÃ©volunteers, and you get to experience many different things :biggrin2:Adopting is great, but so is fostering :biggrin2:Maybe you can discuss it with your parents. You can work it out around times when you are more available so you'd really have more time to care for your foster


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## Becca (Sep 16, 2008)

Mum should be looking at this thread righttttt now!

How does fostering work?


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## clevername (Sep 16, 2008)

*BabyBunnies wrote: *


> How to I join?



https://www.secure-website.com/thebrc/join.htm

I would suggest putting off joining until you go to your first rabbit show. Talk to the breeders, find a breed you like. 

Then buy some resource books. Does the BRC put out a Standard of Perfection book? Find out, ARBA's has been invaluable to me.  Pick up some rabbit care/medical books too--you will need them.

Now gets some spare cages. Breeders usually have more cages than rabbits just in case they have problems moving a litter--you have to be prepared to keep your offspring and keep them seperate.

Okay! I would join the BRC now. Get some good stock and get pedigrees. Its good in general to pick out a goal when you aquire animals. For instance I decided I wanted to breed Red Satin Angora. Reds tend to have a problem with density so I got a nice red buck and a few does who carried red, were red, or were a compatible color with great density. You'll like the genetic aspect--its fun to look at pedigrees and figure out what to expect from your litters.

Now show your rabbits. Showing your rabbits is a way to learn more about your breed, get updates about how your doing as a breeder and is a good way to releive yourself of stock you don't intend to keep.

Wheew, sorry I wrote a lot. So any of that sound like fun?


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## Becca (Sep 16, 2008)

It sounds soooo blimmin fun :shock::inlove:


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## MissBinky (Sep 16, 2008)

Well it varies from shelter to shelter really...

For me, when I'd take in a foster, I was doing it for an undetermined amount of time and I had the permission to rehome the foster (as long as it went with the shelter's policies) myself. However, there were bunnies that needed certain care, whether it was administering medicine such as cream etc. so those buns needed to be placed in foster homes. Usually, this bun stayed the time required and then went back to the shelter. I took in a pregnant doe so she could have a quiet environment to give birth and it gave the babies the oppurtunity to be socialised as well. The vet costs (if there were any and if it was possible) were covered by the shelter. 

The other thing is that potential adopters will want to see the foster. For me, the people would come visit here directly. However, you can always work it out so that they meet the bun at the shelter though that would involve more transportation. Also remember that moving bunnies around a lot can be stressful so you'd need to decide if you are okay with the idea of people going to your home. In any case, you can discuss fostering special buns that need only a short time in foster care and then they'd return to the shelter. Just do keep in mind thatsome thingscan be contagious so you'd need to be careful but most of the shelters don't permit people who already have bunnies to foster these as they do not want to risk the health of the other bunnies


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## Luv-bunniz (Sep 16, 2008)

BabyBunnies wrote:


> How does fostering work?



In my experience...

First you will talk to a local shelter, get to know them, how things work, different volunteers etc then you can apply or just send in some general info like what experience you have with rabbits, how many you would be willing to take at one time, what you would like experience in etc. Then they will find a rabbit that would suit you well and usually they pay for costs etc until the rabbit finds a home. You will also learn tons from it, ie. living/dealing with different needs/ilnesses, caring for babies, pregnant mums, giving meds etc. It is really fun and great if you have alot of time to spare especially with the timid rabbits that need some socialisation


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## polly (Sep 16, 2008)

As a BRC member you get your breed standard book, your new to the fancy book and your yearbook. You can find all shows on the BRC website. 

Your breed standard book gives you every breed recognised in this country and all the colours allowed.


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## Spring (Sep 16, 2008)

After volunteering at a shelter since March, were I'm in contact with 30 or so rabbits on a weekly basis.. I honestly, really urge you to reconsider.

Every rabbit at the shelter I volunteer at deserves a home so badly, they are all such awesome rabbits, heck even one poor guy had been sitting there for 2 years, but thankfully he recently was just adopted. 

I know that the UK isn't any better off homeless rabbit wise than we are, and their are so many rabbits here, such sweet and awesome individuals that often miss out on a home, because the supply is larger than the demand - and the majority of the demands are for cute little baby bunnies, so there they sit.

I'm not saying breeding is wrong - the right kind of breeding is great. I think everyone would love to have the experience of baby bunnies, but if everyone with a male and female rabbit bred because it would be a "great experience" the population would further explode.

I've gotten so much more out of helping at the shelter than I could have ever gotten mating rabbits.. I've met so many awesome little ones, it's taught me so much. It's taught me some major life lessons too.. something I really am glad I've gotten.. 

Just thought I'd share.. since it makes me so sad seeing rabbits just sit there waiting for homes.. but if I walk into a petstore and see dozens of cute baby bunnies that will go in a week.. then "my babies away from home" at theshelterjust sit there.. really puts breeding without a truepurpose to advance thebreedin perspective when you've seen it first hand.. it's not a nice feeling.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Sep 16, 2008)

I agree with what some other members are saying, especially Peg. 

I have experience in what you're wanting to do, so please, do listen. When I started breeding, I bred mixes....I still have the buck & doe, becuase they were my first rabbits. Yes, their babies were cute, did I have a reason for breeding? Not really, other than giving them to "pet homes". But then I became aware of all the bunnies in the shelters, and I didn't want to be a part of what was putting them there, if you know what I mean. So, I got some purebreds and got involved in showing & 4-H and I've loved it ever since. While I still love/miss all the pet bunnies that I bred, I know now that it wasn't a good idea to do that, it wasn't getting those homeless bunnies anywhere, because their future homes were being taken by my babies, but I am glad that my babies did get good homes, while some others I had to take to the auction and hope they got good homes. 

Anyway, the point being, if you want to help rabbits, then you won't be a part of what's putting them in shelters. By breeding purebreds, other rabbit owners will be able to select your stock and use them in their own rabbitries and your bunnies could be great winners some day, etc. Also, it's harder to find mixes a good home, and you may end up having to do what I did, which means you might never see them again. 

As for what Peg said about you never know what problems you'll get with mixes, she's right. The first litter I ever had, there was one deformed kit and the other, Artie (whom you may have heard of, others know who he is) was blind and unable to use his back two legs; the rest of the babies from that litter and everyone on after that were fine, but it just goes to show what a doe/buck can carry. 

I really do hope you think about this some more before you breed Fluffy. I mean, I thought you were against breeding Dippy to that one bunny? If you want to breed, I suggest you get a pair of purebreds and then breed, that way otherscan benefit besides just you.

Emily


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## SOOOSKA (Sep 16, 2008)

Well said Spring.

Susan


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## Phinnsmommy (Sep 16, 2008)

If you breed, are you planning on keeping the babies?

ETA: If you want to just have the experience of babies, I know a couple people who have fostered pregnant does.


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## clevername (Sep 16, 2008)

*BabyBunnies wrote: *


> It sounds soooo blimmin fun :shock::inlove:



That part *is* fun.

But I really should stress it isn't easy. Rabbit breeding, at least as a hobby, isn't all that profitable. Good quality rabbits can run you anywhere from $30-200. The start up cost for my rabbitry (29 cages total--this was just to start as this is very small) came to well over $1,500 dollars. And I did a lot of the building myself which saved me some cash.

Also you will have to come to terms with exactly what it is you are doing. You will be seeking to improve the breed. There will be culls, some so severe you'll have to put them down instead of let suffer. It is not fun. Even though you love your rabbits they will now be livestock to you. And a lot of things you may have sought vet care in the past you'll now be administering yourself. Can you deal with the that responsibility?

Ask yourself what you really want out of breeding rabbits. Is it the fact that you enjoy caring for rabbits? Or would you like to have a hand in making a better rabbit? What is a better rabbit to you? 

Why do you breed rabbits?

Before you commit try to have a good answer to these questions.


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## naturestee (Sep 16, 2008)

I just thought I'd throw this in: can you afford the vet care? There are lots of things that go wrong. I'm having "fun" with two problems now. An orphan bun (mom died 1 week after birth probably from complications, both siblings passed away) and a mom and babies with syphilis. I have these guys through the local shelter, by the way.

Anyway, the vet bills add up. I've spent about $100 on my remaining orphan bun, and that's with a very inexpensive vet clinic. She'll probably need more andis infected with two different problems now and I still am not counting on her surviving to adulthood. 

In addition, when my foster mom Jazzy had her second (!) litter she had problems. Two babies were born dead because they were too big and she had to grab on andyank them out of herself. If they had been completely stuck she probably would have died because it was a weekend and the nearest emergency vet clinic that treats rabbits is an hour away. If she had survived to get there it's $100 just to walk in the door.

These are far from the only possible problems. It's just what I've experienced with my first everfoster mom (with two litters, grr) and two orphan babies (now down to one). If breeding is something you really, really want to do then do a lot of research first and set aside several hundred dollars for emergency vet care.


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## Becca (Sep 17, 2008)

I really want to adopt a homeless bunny instead of breeding - Mum was supposed to read this thread I am not sure if she did. But I wanna give a poor old bunny a home.


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## Becca (Sep 17, 2008)

I have fallen in love with this gorgeous little girl http://www.rabbitrehome.org.uk/moreinfo.asp?RabID=13601

:inlove:

I need to get round mum now...... :headsmack

Pros and Cons of Dippy and Fluf mating

Pros:

Good experience

Sweet babies

Another bun



Cons:

Breeding for no reason

Fluffball could be ill

If fluf gets ill = Â£Â£Â£Â£Â£Â£

Got to find homes for the babies 

the bunnies might not get homes elsewhere and will need vaccines and neutering etc etc





Pros and Cons of adopting

Pros:

Giving a bun a home 

Helping a bun who has had a c*** life another chance and a loving home

^ | That one rules all :nod



IF I HAVE MISSED ANY FEEL FREE TO ADD THEM IN :biggrin2:


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## Becca (Sep 17, 2008)

Well mum said its a definte (sp?) no about adopting so I asked about fostering and she didn't say no she said she'd think about it so I have made one of my famous powerpoints saying all the reasons why we should foster! I'll let you no how it goes1!!!


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## TinysMom (Sep 17, 2008)

Becca,

I think its great you want to help other rabbits in need - I think that would be a good thing - especially since many times fosters will receive help (I think) with the food, etc. and sometimes the cage is provided I think....

Something to consider before you do this though is to make sure that ALL of your rabbits (and the new rabbit coming into the house) is up to date on all their shots, etc. We don't have the vaccinations here in the US that y'all do over there but from what I've read - those viruses that they vaccinate again are pretty darn nasty and very very painful to rabbits. If your bunnies aren't up to date on those shots - you will definitely want to do a power point presentation to show your parents why it is so important that the rabbits get their shots ASAP. 

Here is a link to an article in our library about VHD:

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=25864&forum_id=10


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## BlueGiants (Sep 17, 2008)

Becca,

I've been following this thread, and didn't add anything because everyone else covered what I would have said. But I do have to say, I'm very impressed with your maturity in thinking this through and taking Fluff's welfare into consideration. 

You are very smart to consider all the options and I think you'd be a great foster mom for a shelter bunny. It will also give you more experience with different rabbit breeds and different rabbit personalities. That's how we all learn. By thinking outside the box and exposing ourselves to different things. 

I'm sure your mum has your best interests at heart. And now you are doing that for your rabbits. Kudo's to you.


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## Becca (Sep 17, 2008)

Thanks BG and TM!

Means a lot - I have made a VHD powerpoint to show mum!


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## Luvmyzoocrew (Sep 17, 2008)

you can also get the experience of babies and preggo mamas in fostering, if it is really the experience with babies that you want. I foster guinea pigs and the lady that runs it gets pregnant moms all the time, so that is a possibility for you to be able to experience that.


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## Peek-a-boo (Sep 17, 2008)

well theres no point shouting and saying dont do it lol

i dont see anything wrong with breeding if you have;

-money incase of emergancies

-homes for teh babies - make sure to see pictures of where the rabbit will be living before handing them over last thing you want is to give a baby bun you brought into teh world to go live in a 3ft hutch with no exercise time outside! and basically forgotten about once the babys grown up.

-make sure new owners are willing to get emergancy vet treatment if ever they need it.

- get in touch with the breeder and try to get any history from her i.e both fluffballs and dippys parent grand parents etc. you never know they may be distantly related which to me isnt a major thingso not something to worry about but it would be handy to know.

- when sexing teh babies get second opinion off a vet or breeder before rehoming

- i would be wary of homes where the baby is getting bought for a 'child' make it clear that it is the parents responsability to look afte rit not the childs

- take any of the babys back if ever they need rehomed this will stop them from being handed to rescues or given to bad homes.

- also if any of teh babies have health problems i.e teeth problems (when my bun had babies one of them had overgrown incissors by the time it was 8 weeks old!) they will be un-rehomable meaning you will need to keep it and carry on vet treatment as and when its needed which can be pricey some vet treatment will have to be carried, all the buns life so take that in mind.


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## tamsin (Sep 17, 2008)

Hiya,

I do a lot of work with rescues in the UK so I thought I'd add some more information for you  There are about 30,000 rabbits that go through rescues every year in the UK. This includes a big portion of babies. Unfortunately people often really underestimate how hard it is to rehome babies so rescues get a lot of babies in at around 3-4 months when people who have bred find it's impossible to get homes. 

No so great for the rescues (who have to cover the cost) or the babies who are homeless, but great if your interested in fostering or volunteering as socialising babies and looking after them until they are neutered ready for rehoming is often done by foster carers. It's not uncommon to get pregnant females in either so you may get to have babies as a foster mum too 

Fostering is great because you get all the fun of rabbits without making such hudge commitments. The rescue will usually cover all the vets bills and may even provide the accomodation! 

I'm not anti-breeding - baby bunnies have to come from somewhere lol but I get to hear about all the times it goes wrong so I think it's really important people know what they are letting themselves in for. For example one rescue had a mum in rescently, she died just after giving birth and they were left with 10 cute little babies to hand rear. They got them to a couple of weeks old all gorgeous and fluffy then had to watch as one at a time they slowly died, every single one of them. That's unbelieavbly heart breaking when you have nursed them for hours everyday and even when you've paid out a fortune in vet bills you can't save them. Babies can be a joy to watch but they can be the absolute worst to. I think that's the point people here are trying to make, not don't breed but make sure you go into it with your eyes open about the risks and problems 

You can find out more about rescues in your area via the Rabbit Welfare Association: http://www.rabbitwelfare.co.uk/ give their helpline a call and they've got a list of rescues and can also give you more advice on fostering or breeding or both 

Tamsin


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## Becca (Sep 17, 2008)

Thanks Tamsin


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## BSAR (Sep 17, 2008)

*BabyBunnies wrote: *


> I would love to foster in fact I wanted to adopt buuuuttt for some reason the parents said that i can only breed fluf not get another bun


They probably said that becuase when you breed, you sell the babies. So if you get a bunny then you are getting another and not breeding and just getting read of some. Do you get what I am saying?


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## LadyBug (Sep 17, 2008)

*BabyBunnies wrote: *


> I have fallen in love with this gorgeous little girl http://www.rabbitrehome.org.uk/moreinfo.asp?RabID=13601
> 
> :inlove:




i totally agree with you:biggrin2:. so, so cute! that was the other color i was thinking about when i got J, the broken orange







i'm gonna stay out of the breeding discussion because i myself have mixed feelings about breeding


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## BabyBailey (Sep 17, 2008)

I don't want people to get mad at me, but why are so many people ganging up on Becca? She loves her bunnies and she has proven she is responsible and dedicated to them. If she wants to breed them and her parents will not let her adopt, then we shouldn't interfere but support her decision and give her productive advice. And she does not have to be in 4H to learn about animals and breeding them. One can self-learn and she obviously has. I remember reading about her "bunny bible" and how she wrote everything she might possibly need to know about bunnies. Why not let her learn about breeding on her own also? Just because us american kids have a special teacher shouldn't mean that it excludes the rest of the world from breeding and learning for fun. So Becca, I think you should go for it. If you can't adopt, then there shouldn't be any reason that youcan't breed your bunnies. I know I might have angered some people, and i'm sorry. But let the girl do what she wants.


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## Phinnsmommy (Sep 17, 2008)

I do agree with you BabyBailey, I just think one of the main concerns of all of us are breeding for "fun" when there's already so many bunnies that need homes. Do you know how many are put to sleep everyday just because they don't have the chance to go to a good family?

When Becca sells the babies, every single one of them are homes that could have been given to a bunny that is already alive and in a shelter.

Like Spring said (I think it was her...) the supply is more than the demand.

Becca, please take all of this into consideration, but your a smart girl and we all know which ever choice you make it will be an educated one, and I support you with whatever you decide.


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## BabyBailey (Sep 17, 2008)

Yes. But some people are picky about what they want or can have. I live in a small apartment and had to have a small bunny. Thats why I went to a breeder for a holland lop. If a person wants something specific and thats what she has then what's the big deal? If they don't go to her for their specific needs, it's not like they are just going to a shelter, they will probably go to another breeder. In brief, If the person was going to go to a shelter they'd go to it anyway. If someone wants one from a breeder they are going to just look at breeders. It's not like if her bunnies weren't there a whole bunch would be rescued. It probably wouldn't change anything at all.



** edited for spelling


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## naturestee (Sep 17, 2008)

It's one thing to breed, it's another to breed for a reason. 4H is like the kids version of ARBA or BRC for rabbits. You breed for a goal and your rabbits get judged on standards. A big plus for this is that breeders often purchase rabbits from other breeders if they are of good quality. This makes it much easier to find homes for the babies and also decreases the amount of rabbits that actually make it into the over flowing pet rabbit market (and therefore shelters).

Breeding rabbits outside of an established network like the rabbit shows (or wool producers/spinners, etc.) means you need to rely on finding pet homes for every baby rabbit. PLUS it sounds like Becca's parents not only don't want her to adopt but don't want her to keep any babies either. That's not only depressing (it'svery hard to hand your precious babies over to someone else)could be a huge problem, especially if she has trouble finding homes for them fast enough. They need to be separated from the mom and separated by genders at 8 weeks, then generally need to be kept in single cages once they hit puberty because they fight.

Not to mention the annual vaccinations (for deadly diseases in the UK).

Also many breeders here prefer a rabbit to come back to them if the owner can't keep it and are prepared to take care of those rabbits for the rest of their lives if needed. It sounds like Becca's parents wouldn't allow that, which means if the owners of her babies can't keep them for some reason later down the line they are more likely to end up in a shelter.

Yes, they are her rabbits and she can do what she likes with them. But a lot of us are on this forum not just for the people but for their rabbits. There is a lot more to consider when breeding rabbits than just cute babies. And as already stated if she (or other people too) want to raise a litter or two many shelters would love foster homes for pregnant and nursing buns.


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## BabyBailey (Sep 17, 2008)

About 4H- That is so not true. I had a close friend in 4H that didn't have her rabbits judged and she bred them. It was just for fun and she learned a lot on her own. 

And she already took into consideration the risks. Why should we even worry about it? and we're all here for our rabbits. We joined because we love them and care for them. If we didn't we wouldn't waste our time here.


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## clevername (Sep 17, 2008)

*naturestee wrote:*


> ...it sounds like Becca's parents not only don't want her to adopt but don't want her to keep any babies either. That's not only depressing (it'svery hard to hand your precious babies over to someone else)could be a huge problem, especially if she has trouble finding homes for them fast enough. They need to be separated from the mom and separated by genders at 8 weeks, then generally need to be kept in single cages once they hit puberty because they fight.
> 
> Not to mention the annual vaccinations (for deadly diseases in the UK).
> 
> Also many breeders here prefer a rabbit to come back to them if the owner can't keep it and are prepared to take care of those rabbits for the rest of their lives if needed. It sounds like Becca's parents wouldn't allow that, which means if the owners of her babies can't keep them for some reason later down the line they are more likely to end up in a shelter.



My concerns exactly.


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## naturestee (Sep 17, 2008)

*BabyBailey wrote: *


> Yes. But some people are picky about what they want or can have. I live in a small apartment and had to have a small bunny. Thats why I went to a breeder for a holland lop. If a person wants something specific and thats what she has then what's the big deal? If they don't go to her for their specific needs, it's not like they are just going to a shelter, they will probably go to another breeder. In brief, If the person was going to go to a shelter they'd go to it anyway. If someone wants one from a breeder they are going to just look at breeders. It's not like if her bunnies weren't there a whole bunch would be rescued. It probably wouldn't change anything at all.
> 
> 
> 
> ** edited for spelling



I understand that breeders are especially needed for finding less common breeds, but the ones most people want- holland lops, nethies, mini lops, dutch, and mini rex- are also the most common ones in shelters. I and the rescue I help out with get a lot of requests for specific breeds, and you know what? Even if we don't have that exact rabbit as we're a very small rescue we can usually find several at other shelterswithin driving distance. As long as they're small-mid sized at least.

Just in my city shelter in the last few months we've had purebred mini rex, mini lops, holland lops, tons of dutch, a dwarf hotot, a bunch of polish, several nethies, jersey wooleys, fuzzy lops,lionheads, and even two English Angoras!And several possibly purebred harlequins but they're hard to tell. Not to mention the babyloppy rexes and a loppy dutch I'm fostering for the shelter. People can find what they want in shelters, even babies of many breeds, if they look. And shelters (and Petfinder) are often easier to find than breeders of specific rabbit breeds.


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## naturestee (Sep 17, 2008)

*BabyBailey wrote: *


> About 4H- That is so not true. I had a close friend in 4H that didn't have her rabbits judged and she bred them. It was just for fun and she learned a lot on her own.


That's different, because she wasn't breeding as part of the 4H rabbit program. The rabbit program here is pretty competitive- my husband raised and showed rabbits in it as a kid.


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## BabyBailey (Sep 17, 2008)

I think everyone is so past the topic that was started. Why is everyone so against this girl having some baby bunnies? She is responsible and it isn't like shes doing it all the time. Just let her do what she wants without giving her grief,


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## Phinnsmommy (Sep 17, 2008)

Were not giving her grief. Breeding for no reason, there's just no point to it.
She's getting a new baby bunny in a couple of weeks, so she'll get her experience with that.

I just don't see the point to it, when it's just going to add to the overpopulation.


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## BabyBailey (Sep 18, 2008)

But it is none of our buisness to say if it is ok or not. The human race is overpopulated and people still have kids. and not just one or two, people have families of 6 or more. And who are we to say that's wrong? This is the same situation. We have no right to say she is wrong when she wants rabbit babies of her own.


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## clevername (Sep 18, 2008)

*BabyBailey wrote: *


> But it is none of our buisness to say if it is ok or not. The human race is overpopulated and people still have kids. and not just one or two, people have families of 6 or more. And who are we to say that's wrong? This is the same situation. We have no right to say she is wrong when she wants rabbit babies of her own.



ah, but when people have babies they generally intend to keep all of them.


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## naturestee (Sep 18, 2008)

LOL no, you haven't seen anyone actually giving her grief yet. That mainly happens when someone's dead set on doing something dumb like insisting on mating a small doe to a much larger buck or breeding an older virgin doe. Or letting two intactrabbits of different gender "play" together because they're lonely.

This is a civil discussion, it just looks bad to you because so many of us are trying to convince Becca not to breed. That's just because we all have our reasons and strong thoughts about that.


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## NorthernAutumn (Sep 18, 2008)

With all due respect, BabyBailey, the forum members who have posted here have given clear, concise arguments both for and against breeding pets just for the experience. Everyone has made valuable contributions to the discussion, based on both personal and scientific knowledge. 

No one is trying to give Becca "grief".

The facts are as follows: 
Dippy has already been bred against Becca's will. She made that point very clear to all of us who read her posts. 

We are wondering whether she is now actually interested in breeding, or if this is just another way to enjoy the companionship of another bunny. 

If she wants a bunny to love, the shelter/fostering options are the way to go. 

If Becca wants to experience the breeding process, members have suggested that she learn from an experienced breeder, adopt a pregnant animal or join a breeders association. It is important to understand that by breeding an animal, you are taking on a significant moral and financial responsibility for the health and welfare of that creature and its offspring.

Finally, I must note that Becca is still trying very hard to raise money for Dippy's neuter. This suggests to me that her parents have told her that the rabbits are Becca's financial responsibility. If Becca wants to bring more bunnies in the world, she must be able to cope with the vet costs, food costs, rehoming costs (time and energy and paper for posters), as well as the emotional cost of potentially having rabbits die in the breeding process, or given to uncaring homes.

Becca mentioned that her father was willing to pay for the doe's costs. Why not Dippy's neuter? We don't know. That is an issue that she needs to work out.


We, as a community, are encouraging Becca to *make an educated decision* that takes into account her interests, her financial situation, and her committment to the health of her two existing pet rabbits. Dippy and Fluffball have to come first.

The decision is hers. And we *will *support her, regardless of whether we all agree with her decision or not.


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## naturestee (Sep 18, 2008)

*clevername wrote: *


> *BabyBailey wrote: *
> 
> 
> > But it is none of our buisness to say if it is ok or not. The human race is overpopulated and people still have kids. and not just one or two, people have families of 6 or more. And who are we to say that's wrong? This is the same situation. We have no right to say she is wrong when she wants rabbit babies of her own.
> ...


But I complain about that too! No really, I do. Mainly when they can't take care of them. Same as with people breeding animals. If you can't take good care of all of them don't do it.


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## NorthernAutumn (Sep 18, 2008)

The question is not as simple and, pardon me, idiotic as totally right and totally wrong. 
There are no black and white answers: it is all shades of grey.

*The question is, "Is this right for Becca, at this point in time in her life, with her pet rabbits?".* We are all trying to make sure she knows the potential ramifications of the decision before she makes her choice.


EDIT: BTW, the overpopulation argument is perfectly relevant to the conversation. Obviously, few people on the planet are capable at looking at the bigger picture, and assessing what would be the best choice for our planetary ecosystems.

If we all screw like rabbits, and have copious amounts of children, then we have an overpopulation issue. Take a look at the homeless and the starving, and tell me that having fewer children wouldn't make a difference.

If we all breed our rabbits for fun without carefully thinking of the short-term and long term consequences of our choices, we get an overpopulation issue (which already exists, in the shelters and the backyards of all our countries).

Your spin on the argument suggests that the choices of one person do not make a difference.
That is not true. Take a look at Hitler. Take a look at Mother Teresa. Take a look at Nelson Mandela. 
Take a look at the big picture, and see the ripple effect.


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## Spring (Sep 18, 2008)

We all know Becca is very intelligent and responsible, and it's good that we are having this discussion, so she knows exactly what the outcome is either way. She's already madea pro/con list, which is a great way to deal with a situation when you are caught in the middle .

I've personally never had a litter of baby bunnies (unfortunately) but even myself cry when I get home if a shelter bunny gets adopted, and that's just from seeing them on a weekly basis.. even if they went to a fantastic home, I still miss them.. I just couldn't imagine watching a litter of babies grow up, then having to rehome them. Probably why if I were to adopt a pregnant doe, I'd be in a situation to keep all the babies.. I can just imagine how hard it would be to part with the babies, who really turn into your rabbits.. you get so attached to them after 2 months, I know for me at least it would be heartbreaking.

Becca, I think you can get the same experience, maybe even a more valuable experience in other ways besides Fluffball having babies. Even the litter you are going to pick your new baby from, what about spending more time with them? That way you don't have to be sitting on pins in needles all throughout a pregnancy, don't have to deal with possible dead kits, rehoming the babies etc. Or even talking with a breeder nearby and coming maybe weekly to play or see the baby bunnies?

You could very well end up with 5+ babies.. I know in Pebbles (a lionhead) she was in a litter of _7! _It may not be simple finding homes for all the babies, and I know you were trying to figure out housing just for your current 2 + new addition.. what if you ended up with 10 bunnies that you had to take responsibility for if you weren't able to find good, suitable homes for?

I hope you don't take any of this as being harsh, just trying to share experiences, because we don't want you to be in a situation that you may not want to be in, or have bitten off more than you can chew.


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## undergunfire (Sep 18, 2008)

Becca....I think you and your family need to go volunteer at a kill shelter, not just for bunnies, but for dogs and cats, too. You will see the sadness and hell inside of a kill shelter...dogs and cats are sick and have days to live. Why? Because people like you want/do breed "fun" litters.

If you breed your rabbits, you will be killing 2x the amount of shelter rabbits. How? Once a shelter rabbit gets adopted, another rabbit gets to fill that cage...that saves 2 lives. If you breed and adopt out the babies....you just let 2 rabbits die (per baby you adopted out) in a shelter because your "fun" litter stole their homes. If Fluffball has 6 rabbits...you just allowed 12 shelter rabbits to die under needle.

I think deep down, you know breeding your rabbits is wrong. You need to follow your heart and HAVE A HEART to not breed more rabbits into this world.


I probably sound harsh, but people need to wake up and look past their own lives....look into the shelters and the real world. Humans are responsible for all the death in beloved pets, because they are careless.


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## Becca (Sep 18, 2008)

Okay, I have now made everyone argue amongst themselves  - Last night I was watching Fluffball, she was happily binkying and having the time of her life. I do not want to bring pain, suffereing and maybe death onto such a sweet little girl.

I am putting everything on hold until I get the new baby bunny in 37 days. Then when he/she has settled in, I will then get Dippy neutered.

Then I can think of getting Fluffball spayed and having all their vaccinations done.

Then and only then I will think about *fostering - *to help a bunny be well enough for adopting.

Sorry that I made everyone argue :shock:


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## JadeIcing (Sep 18, 2008)

BabyBunnies* wrote: *


> Okay, I have now made everyone argue amongst themselves  - Last night I was watching Fluffball, she was happily binkying and having the time of her life. I do not want to bring pain, suffereing and maybe death onto such a sweet little girl.
> 
> I am putting everything on hold until I get the new baby bunny in 37 days. Then when he/she has settled in, I will then get Dippy neutered.
> 
> ...



I stayed out of this for the most part. 

Putting her through it could be a risk for her. It could be fine. I believe you know these risk well. This is my concern. If something happened to her how would you be. Mostly considering the recent loss of Nibbles. I would hate to see you go through another loss.

Waiting on getting the baby than going back over everything could be the best for all involved. You, the bunnies and your family. 

3 bunnies can be alot of work, but add on a litter. Which can range from 1-8 (that is what I would think for a little bun.) would be ALOT of work. If you are expected to care for all of them what would you do if 4 or 5 get sick at once. Could you stay home from school to care for them?

No one is arguing just discussing. 

------------------

BabyBailey* wrote: *


> But it is none of our buisness to say if it is ok or not. The human race is overpopulated and people still have kids. and not just one or two, people have families of 6 or more. And who are we to say that's wrong? This is the same situation. We have no right to say she is wrong when she wants rabbit babies of her own.




Big Difference- Bunnies can and will more than likelybePTS when a potential home is taken away. A child will not be PTS. 

I think for now this topic is closed. I am however very very proud of how everyone conducted themselves.


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## Becca (Sep 18, 2008)

I know thats why I said b4 i'm not breeding. I've already decided that.


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## MissBinky (Sep 18, 2008)

Hihi, we weren't giving Becca grief. In fact, she said herself that she had many pros and cons and wasn't exactly seeing which was best at the time.

The thing to always keep in mind, for all of us, is that the bunnies are in our care. Breeding for fun is a decision a human makes, but that the bunnies live with. We need to decide for our bunnies what is best for them.

Personally, Becca, I think you have a good head on your shoulders to be able to sit, listen, and rationalize. Neutering and spaying your buns will allow you to house them together if they like each other, and most likely prevent them from getting cancer. I think, that, in the end, is a great decision for them and it's a good quality of life Part of what worried me was the fact that Becca is still in school and the more she advances, the more schoolwork she will get and it will be hard to balance both, especially if a litter ever needs special care. It would also put a lot of pressure to find homes for the babies as fast as possible since she cannot keep any and that might play emotionally too. You certainly do not want to rush rehoming bunnies. I do think you'd make a good foster mom Becca.


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## Becca (Sep 18, 2008)

*MissBinky wrote: *


> I do think you'd make a good foster mom Becca.




Thanks, I hope so! - If we do it will either be later in the year or next year because I want the new baby to settle in properly and hopefull neuter and spay Dippy and Fluff.


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## LadyBug (Sep 18, 2008)

*BabyBunnies wrote: *


> *MissBinky wrote: *
> 
> 
> > I do think you'd make a good foster mom Becca.
> ...



what about the baby(sorry to be a party pooper or what ever:?)? what ever sex s/he is, i'd do the opposite sexed bun. ie, if it's a boy, fix Fluffball first.


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## Phinnsmommy (Sep 18, 2008)

Becca i'm really glad. You made the right decision .


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## Dublinperky (Sep 18, 2008)

I am glad you made the decsion for your self and debated on here. When I first started talking about beeding this who bombarding thing came up. I think that it is good that we are all watching out for our bunnies and all the bunnies in the world. I just wnated you to now I am soooo glad you are thinking about fostering because you have the chance to really help somebunny!

Aly!:tongue

PS The comparision on you and me I think was very valid and a good point to bring up . But most of these people already talk to me about all this stuff!

PPS All those people that were "bombarding" I think it is a good thing. I am not trying to critisies you because I agree that it should be thaought over very well

PPPS I hope all this makes since

PPPPS WOW that is alot of PSs!


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## Happi Bun (Sep 19, 2008)

> Okay, I have now made everyone argue amongst themselves  - Last night I was watching Fluffball, she was happily binkying and having the time of her life. I do not want to bring pain, suffereing and maybe death onto such a sweet little girl.
> 
> I am putting everything on hold until I get the new baby bunny in 37 days. Then when he/she has settled in, I will then get Dippy neutered.
> 
> ...


I think that is the best thing to do. Kudo's to you! :hug:


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