# Wire bottoms



## Whipple (Dec 1, 2009)

Ok, so I was browsing around. And found pictures of a breeders set-up. They were entirely wire, and the entire floors was too.

I thought it's bad for their feet. Is this not so? Personally I'd give them a solid area, even just a litterbox or something.


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## GorbyJobRabbits (Dec 1, 2009)

all of our old pens had wire bottoms, and there was a nest box in the back. (for our does). Then there was an extra peice of wood in the front that they could move around and sit on. 

and then all our buck pens were bout the same just no nest box. They had the wire bottoms but a loose peice of wood they could move around or play with and sit on wherever they wanted it in their pen.

Wire bottoms are MUCH easier to keep clean, just big enough for the poo to drop through, but not too large to put too much stress on their feet. But its just cleaner. My temperary cage for my rex I completely dislike. Because he'll sit where he peed and his fur is messy and stinky no matter how much I keep it clean. 

Where a wire bottom for it to fall through I never had that problem.


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## Whipple (Dec 1, 2009)

That I can understand. At least they had a solid place. What size are the holes you find work best? And what kind of wood do you use?


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Dec 1, 2009)

Wire bothering feet (causing sore hocks) is a common misconception.

I don't feel like doing a post re-hashing what I've had to say 100 other times because in the end, I only get flamed for using wire floors. lol But basically-

Rabbits who have problems with their feet are that way because of their genetics. A rabbit with a well-bred body structure and well-furred feet will not have an issue.

A rabbit who is prone to sore hocks will have just as much trouble on a flat surface as they will on wire.

That's the jist of it!


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## GorbyJobRabbits (Dec 1, 2009)

I dont remember the size, I mean some cages have bigger wire some have smaller. I guess imagine the size of your bunnies droppings and just something a bit bigger so theres no mess. 

I'll have to get a better size estimate lol, its been a while since we built some.


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## Whipple (Dec 1, 2009)

That makes sense to me. Rabbits do have pretty hairy feet. Personally I would give them something solid, but I doubt the wire, if not too large should really bother them.

Thanks so much!


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## Happi Bun (Dec 1, 2009)

I personally would not and do not house my bunnies on wire flooring because they are litter box trained, thus there is no need. The rescue I volunteer with keeps their bunnies in wire bottom cages, however, all the wire is covered using plastic resting boards that still allow any poo and pee to pass through. I can understand, for sanitation, why breeders keep their rabbit's on wire. Though I do feel they should provide each bun with the option of sitting off the wire (e.g. a resting board). 

Sore hocks can and does happen to rabbit's on wire simply due to the fact they are being kept on it, but it can also be caused by other factors including but not limited to; obesity, being kept in a unhygienic or damp environment, and extended periods of immobility.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Dec 2, 2009)

*Happi Bun wrote: *


> Sore hocks can and does happen to rabbit's on wire simply due to the fact they are being kept on it


No, it really doesn't. The breeds who have trouble with sitting on wire are breeds that genetically have a structure to their foot or a light fur to their foot that makes living on wire harsh. In this case, they are not kept on wire.But wire doesn't harm a rabbit just by randomly sitting on it...if it did, why would anyone use it? The wire itself is not a problem...if it were, the plastic resting boards would cause the same issues.


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## Little Bay Poo (Dec 2, 2009)

We have wire bottomed cages but they are mostly covered. Ronnie has a big carpet square. He's very messy so I often have to shake the poops into the drop pan below. Billy has grass mats, carpet squares, bunny beds, and furry dog mats, BUT he is the one with sore hocks (albeit minor). This is due to his genetics, as he stands duck-footed and puts all his weight on the inner back soles of his feet.

I have noticed that they both prefer carpeting and softer surfaces to the wire flooring. I rarely saw them on the wire, and ended up gradually putting down matting until 90% of the floor was covered. However, I would never change to solid flooring. I think it is much easier to clean when you can shake debris into a drop pan below, and then periodically clean the drop pan when necessary.


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## Happi Bun (Dec 2, 2009)

*OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *


> *Happi Bun wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Sore hocks can and does happen to rabbit's on wire simply due to the fact they are being kept on it
> ...



That is your opinion, which I respectfully disagree with. Prolonged time sitting on strictly wire can be a cause for sore hocks. **It's not the only cause and rabbit's can certainly get it on solid surfaces for the reasons I stated in my previous post** I've seen it happen on various occasions to rabbit's that are not even purebred, so the idea it's due to being a genetically predisposed breed doesn't hold up in the experiences I have had. I have yet to find information that disproves my opinion. Feel free to post some links, I will happily change my opinion if I have some information saying otherwise from various other reliable sources. The argument the plastic resting boards would cause the same thing doesn't make sense to me. They a "resting" boards, meaning they keep the rabbit's feet off the wire. They are thick, not thin pieces of wire. However, it's possible sore hocks could still happen due to other environmental problems. Just take a look into what sore hocks is. A pressure-related condition where the weight-bearing undersides of rabbits feet become raw and inflamed.


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## Happi Bun (Dec 2, 2009)

Here is some information regarding sore hocks from Dana Krempels, Ph.D. University of Miami Biology Department.

"Sore hocks", a condition in which the sole of a rabbit's foot becomes raw and inflamed, can be caused by a number of different problems, including Improper flooring - Rabbits need soft, preferably malleable flooring that will mimic the natural texture of the earth as much as possible. Wire flooring that doesn't have sufficient support underneath is not appropriate, as it can cause the foot to bow unnaturally. (Wire flooring with proper support is all right as long as you have a clean litterbox and soft bedding on top of it.)"

Actually the whole article is wonderful and goes on to talk about other kinds of flooring to watch out for as well.

http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/sorehocks.html


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## GorbyJobRabbits (Dec 2, 2009)

> (peteducation.com)Excessive pressure on the foot may cause loss of hair and calluses. It may also damage the skin causing open wounds and infection of the tissues of the feet. The infection may even spread to the bones. The pressure most often occurs if a large rabbit is housed on a hard floor or if a guinea pig is housed on a wire floor with no access to a solid floor. It is more common in hot, humid weather.
> 
> Factors that may predispose an animal to developing sore hocks and feet include:
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> ...




Look.. ANYTHING can cause sore hocks in rabbits. I've had rabbits since I was 3, I'm 23 now. Granted I'm just getting started again, but for almost 20 years that we've had rabbits I've never had one with sore hocks. We've kept them in mainly wire cages. As I stated when we had 60+ head of rabbit I was dealing with we did have a small peice of wood that they could get up on, BUT it was wire. I've NEVER delt with sore hocks. I wouldn't have wire that their feet are slipping through.... But if anyones noticed, MOST fairs and things, their cheap wire cages have LARGE wire holes their feet slip through from time to time....and still at the end of the week there are no problems.

If you're ignorant and leave the rabbit in dirty situations basically yeah you're going to start seeing any type of health problem.

How do you think breeders house their rabbits? They're def not treated as pets with a litter box and a 4'x4' space to live. They're in wire cages for easy and fast cleaning. 

The most important thing other then food and water with a rabbit, is to keep it dry and its housing dry. Being wet will cause so many health problems, the sore hocks, respitory infections not to mention the nasty bacteria that will breed. 

Whipple if you're getting into to breeding and raising/showing rabbits, wire cages are the easiest. Especially since you're looking at the fuzzies, and english lops. The english you have to watch their ears in the winter. They will freeze. and the fuzzies all that hair is a mess if its a solid bottom with sawdust. If you're still worried bout their feet I'd keep a peice of wood they can sit on in there. It gives them something to play with, chew on, and sit on. 

I'd look into everyones advice that everyone on this thread and others is giving you. Where you're getting your bunnies ask them what they think. Go to a show and don't be afraid to talk to anyone. They're all great people and will tlak to you and give you more info then what you need. But in the end it comes down to your choice what works for you.


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## funnybunnymummy (Dec 2, 2009)

FWIW, Gus came to us in a cage with a wire bottom and pull out trays. He spent almost all his time sitting in his litter box (and had orangish-brown feet because of it! ) because, even though he's got nice thick fur on hisfeet, he obviously didn't like sitting on the wire. So even if the wire isn't all that bad for their feet, why make them live their entire lives sitting on it ifmakes them uncomfortable?

Admittedly, the pull out trays weren't THAT hard to clean. But I much prefer to use ahand broom and dust pan to sweep up the excess hay and poops off asolid floor (nosawdust or other litter), than fighting out thetrays(without dumping the contentsandthenhaving to try to clean under them too...Ugh! :grumpy. And, because he's litter trained, there's rarely any pee on the floor for him to lay in and make him dirty and stinky. And a litter box is SO easy to clean. Just dumpthe contents,spay down with a vinegar/water solution, give a scrub, dry, refill and replace. 

I honestly think his new cage takes less time to clean now than his old one.

JMVHO

Rue


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Dec 2, 2009)

*Happi Bun wrote: *


> *OakRidgeRabbits wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *Happi Bun wrote: *
> ...


Nope, sorry. lol Not my opinion. It's proven through years and years of rabbit management. A well-structured, well-furred foot will not develop sore hocks simply by sitting on wire. If that were true, we (as in, breeders around the world) would not be able to house our rabbits on wire without seeing sore hocks. I've had rabbits on wire for going on 10 years now and not a single case of sore hocks, ever.

I've seen more cases of sore hocks on pet rabbits kept on carpet over the years than on rabbits kept on wire (I've been a member of both pet and breeder forums), because it's so hard to keep solid floors clean. 

*I've seen it happen on various occasions to rabbit's that are not even purebred, so the idea it's due to being a genetically predisposed breed doesn't hold up in the experiences I have had.*

I'm not implying that it occurs in "genetically predisposed breeds". In fact, as breeders, we work to produce rabbits who are structurally sound with correct furring on the feet, to prevent things like sore hocks. Because obviously, we can't house rabbits without that in our rabbitries. So purebred rabbits, on the whole, are not the problem.

But there are breeds like the Standard and Mini Rex who have small feet in relation to their size and are not very well furred. This is a breed that is heavy on their feet, and breeds like this are often offered a solid surface to sit on in addition to wire.

But in general, it tends to be mixed breeds that serious issues are seen in, because they come from indiscriminant breeding, accidental breeding, etc.


The reason you're not able to find information to support what I'm talking about is because it's really not out there. Certain pet rabbit organizations, paired with vets, have put information out there to scare people away from wire flooring and put a negative light on breeders. This is easy to do, because common sense wouldn't tell you that wire flooring would feel good to sit on. But remember that we don't have the thick fur padding on our feet to protect us, like rabbits do. The rabbits that most rescues, vets, etc. have seen on wire have come from dirty, horrible conditions...not from specially built and modified wire caging that reputable breeders use. So yes, it's easy for people in that situation to get the wrong idea.

No one has to believe this, but there are two options to choose from here. One can believe a claim made by people who have never used wire flooring before in their life and are just rehashing information they heard from others who have never used it in their lives either. Or one can listen to and understand the information presented to them by a large group of breeders who have housed large amounts of rabbits on wire for decades now. Who would know the truth? It's for you to decide, but all information is worth considering. I can assure you that no one, including breeders, is doing anything to intentionally harm their bunnies.


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## GorbyJobRabbits (Dec 2, 2009)

OakRidgeRabbits wrote:


> No one has to believe this, but there are two options to choose from here. One can believe a claim made by people who have never used wire flooring before in their life and are just rehashing information they heard from others who have never used it in their lives either.* Or one can listen to and understand the information presented to them by a large group of breeders who have housed large amounts of rabbits on wire for decades now.* Who would know the truth? It's for you to decide, but all information is worth considering. I can assure you that no one, including breeders, is doing anything to intentionally harm their bunnies.



I really like the bolded part the best. But agreed with your entire statement.


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## irishbunny (Dec 2, 2009)

Breeders in Ireland and the UK don't use wire flooring at all. If I was a breeder (which I plan on being in the future) I will use solid floor as well. I can see how wire floor would have a lot of advantages (easy to clean, rabbits keep cleaner etc.) but if I had to use wire flooring, I would give them something to rest themselves on, like a mat of some sort. Even if they don't develope sore hocks, it's still not very nice to have to stand on wire all the time and if they are keep outside, it seems to me like it would be very draughty and cold. 

I mean, you can get pretty cheaps mats that you could put into your rabbit's cages so it's not going to cost any breeder a fortune.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Dec 2, 2009)

*AndersonsRabbits wrote: *


> OakRidgeRabbits wrote:
> 
> 
> > No one has to believe this, but there are two options to choose from here. One can believe a claim made by people who have never used wire flooring before in their life and are just rehashing information they heard from others who have never used it in their lives either.* Or one can listen to and understand the information presented to them by a large group of breeders who have housed large amounts of rabbits on wire for decades now.* Who would know the truth? It's for you to decide, but all information is worth considering. I can assure you that no one, including breeders, is doing anything to intentionally harm their bunnies.
> ...


Thanks. I think it's something that people tend to forget, so I threw it in, in hopes that it might make a small difference.


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## GorbyJobRabbits (Dec 2, 2009)

OakRidgeRabbits wrote:


> *AndersonsRabbits wrote: *
> 
> 
> > OakRidgeRabbits wrote:
> ...



I talked to people at the show I was at that 200+ head of rabbit is what they have, and its all wire. And then its very interesting seeing the opinions on breeders, who have raised them for decades as you mentioned, and then someone who sees them more as a pet. I think thats the most interesting yet hardest concept to accept on here lol.


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## Happi Bun (Dec 2, 2009)

I'm going to agree to disagree because quite honestly, I gave my two cents (which I still stand by) and Whipple can choose to use it or not. I merely provided it as food for thought. I never stated wire cages were _bad, _just that according to my research that, yes, is by rabbit welfare groups, vets, and even some breeders. Wire can cause sore hocks along with other things. Did I not post that a suitable wire cage will not lead to Sore Hocks? I believe I did. I do find it interesting though, how you shift the issue to companion owners mentioning how you've seen it more on rabbit's kept on carpet. Yes, if that carpet is absolutely filthy. I seriously doubt anyone interested in having a clean home would keep it that way. Vacuuming and having a litter box trained bun wouldn't allow the carpet to get get dirty enough to lead to sore hocks. Also, solid surfaces are just easy to keep sanitized, especially with a litter box trained rabbit. Spray it with a disinfectant, wipe, and there you go. I've spent lots of time on various companion rabbit forums as well, but have yet to witness this high percentage of sore hocks with house bunnies like you stated. We could go around and around all day. So I will leave it at that. 

:wave:


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## TinysMom (Dec 2, 2009)

*Happi Bun wrote: *


> I'm going to agree to disagree because quite honestly, I gave my two cents (which I still stand by) and Whipple can choose to use it or not.


:highfive:

I just want to say THANK YOU for taking this attitude. One wonderful thing about this board is that we allow folks to state their opinion and then we ask that they do exactly this....agree to disagree and move on.

What a wonderful example of the way we try to run the board!

:biggrin2:


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## Fancy77 (Dec 2, 2009)

Cant we all just get along lol 

"Agree to disagree" I like that


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Dec 2, 2009)

*Happi Bun wrote: *


> Did I not post that a suitable wire cage will not lead to Sore Hocks?


This was exactly my entire point. Thanks for the support!


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## Baby Juliet (Dec 2, 2009)

I have an outdoor hutch with wire bottom and also a wood bottom in the enclosed area. My rabbits tend to stay on the wire but pee & poop on the wood. If you must use a solid bottom make sure it's at an angle so the pee will drain off instead of wetting the whole floor.


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## AngelnSnuffy (Dec 3, 2009)

*TinysMom wrote: *


> *Happi Bun wrote: *
> 
> 
> > I'm going to agree to disagree because quite honestly, I gave my two cents (which I still stand by) and Whipple can choose to use it or not.
> ...


I love that as well, Peg and Happi Bun!:biggrin2:


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## Nibbles96 (Dec 12, 2009)

Nibbles's cage has a wire bottom and it works fine. It's cleaner, and we just have a tray underneath it with kitty litter where the poo and pee lands. They may not like sitting on the wire, Nibbles doesn't, but you can just set off a little area in their cage with something solid so they can rest comfortably. I put a little bit of bedding in an area of Nibbles's cage so during the night(he's out pretty much all day) he can lay down on that instead of the wire.


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## BlueCamasRabbitry (Dec 12, 2009)

Currently in my rabbitry, I have both solid floors and wire floors. I am switching to all wire floors, because that will make cleaning a heck of a lot easier and faster - giving me more time to spend with the rabbits themselves. There will of course, be either a resting board in their cage or an EZ mat, and not just one, probably two. 

Wooden floors are more susceptible to rot, even when cleaned properly and as needed. I've had my wooden hutch for almost5 years, and the floor is already rotting. If you have a wooden hutch without a litter trained rabbit, the cost of fixing the hutch or even replacing it, could cost a lot if you're having to do so every 3-5 years. I can understand for those of you who don't agree with wire floors, that solid floors are better for you. But, there are pros and cons for both. 

However, wire floors and wood floors are both equally known to cause sore hocks, and like OakRidge said, it really is about the genetics of the rabbit and how well furred their feet are. I've heard many people say that mini rex shouldn't be housed on wire flooring, but I've only had one buck that ever had sore hocks, and that was because his feet were badly furred.  All my other rabbits ever housed on wire haven't shown sore hocks. 

Emily


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