# Teeth problem



## Offspring2099 (Sep 6, 2006)

On Friday I noticed that my mini-rex' (Penny's)cheek was a bit swollen, I used my hand to feel and indeed I felt a bump on her right cheek. Within minutes, I made an apt. for Sat morning to see my vet. 

On Sat., the vet told me that he also could feel it, but will have to take x-ray, and Penny would have to be on antibiotics for 3 days prior. 

On Tues (today), the vet took x-rays, and saw that Penny has a huge pus pocket. It spread so much that Penny lost two teeth (doctor extracted them) and in danger of losing two more. He said that it spread so much that he could see the roots of her molars. The pus was everywhere. 

What kills me is that we never saw it coming. Penny was picky just a little bit about her food for the last two days, but that's it, before the pus pocket formed we had no warnings. I feel so horrible. 

Doctor said that this happens to rabbits out of nowhere. Is he right, or am I doing something wrong? I'm pretty anal about keeping things neat for my rabbits, I mean I don't go washing things with Clorox bleach, but I shake their mats, proper diet, water change everyday. 

Anyways, the best-case scenario is that Penny loses two teeth, maybe one or two more, and will be on antibiotics for 3-5 months.And I don't ever want to talk about the worst case. 

Sorry for the novel, if anyone has the same experience please do share. Thanks for your time and thoughts.


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## Haley (Sep 6, 2006)

Sorry to hear about your poor little Penny.

My max just had the same thing, a tooth root abscess. Was Penny's atthe root of a molar or a front incisor? Max's was in thefront. Luckily, I caught it right away (by accident actually after along problem with a runny nose). The doctor was able to remove thetooth and the abscess. Max is on antibiotics for a few weeks.

From what Ive read, this is quite common and there is no way to preventit. Youre great for getting her to the vet right away.Besides not eating, theres really no way to tell if there's an abscesspresent besides feeling around for a lump.

Heres my story:http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=15023&amp;forum_id=16

Also, theres some great info in the RO resource center on abscesses andhow they form:http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=11791&amp;forum_id=10and the new treatments that are available.

So Im guessing the vet was unable to remove the entireabscess? You might want to see about getting a referral to aveterinary dentist, if your vet doesnt specialize.

Sending lots of good thoughts and prayersPenny's way. ray: ray:

Haley


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## Offspring2099 (Sep 6, 2006)

Thank you for your thoughts. Read yourthread and will try the carot with antibiotic mix, because Penny hateseverything we ever tried. We always had to force it, which isno problem for us. My girlfriend and I got the processes downby now, but would rather have Penny eat on her own.


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## Haley (Sep 6, 2006)

Good Luck!

I still have to force it a little bit (he sits on my lap and I put thesyringe in his mouth) but I know its tastes a little better with thatcarrot juice mixed in.

My other bun, Basil, will drink carrot juice straight out of a littlebowl, so if your bun will do this you could try just mixing theantibiotic in there. 

Please keep us posted. Im keeping little Penny in my prayers. ray:


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## Offspring2099 (Sep 6, 2006)

Both of my rabbits like the smell of juices (andlike to drink it), but when they are sick they won't drink it, becausethey are so picky. I dont blame them, they are in pain.

I just talked to the Vet and got more details. (Last time mymom talked to the vet, I was at work). He told me Penny isdoing better. She is eating a little bit. About thesurgery, he said that he removed as much as infection as possible butit went into the bone. So we will be on antibiotic for awhile, if Penny will get another swelling anytimesoon,he will put in antibiotic packets under her skin, sothat its a straight shot, not through the body system. 

My mom is on her way to get her, because she has the day off.I'm stuck at work worrying. Penny is a little trooper, I knowshe can make it.


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## Offspring2099 (Sep 6, 2006)

Haley, 

What happens when the front tooth is removed? Will one tooth be enough for Max to chew on, in the front?


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## Haley (Sep 6, 2006)

He actually still has the other three inscisorsso he's fine. We will have to trim the opposing tooth for now. If thetooth is growing too much, they will remove it later.

Some rabbits with severe teeth problems have all four of the frontinscisors removed and they have no trouble eating. they just learn touse their lips and chew with the molars.

Is the problem in the molars or the front? Did the vet say he was ableto pack the wound with anything to help it heal or are you just usingoral antibiotics? Ive heard good things about those beads he's talkingabout implanting..oral antibioticsusually doesnt get to theroot of the tooth enough,


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## Offspring2099 (Sep 6, 2006)

Haley,

Its the molars in the back, on the right side. Right now oralantibiotics, but yes beads is what he was talking about. You gotit. He said, he'll put it in, if the swelling comesback.


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## Haley (Sep 6, 2006)

Sounds like you have someone who knows what he's doing!

You'll probably end up needing the beads. My doc said ifMax's abscess comes back (which they oftendo) thats whatwe're gonna do.As you said, its better bc its adirect antibiotic into the area, whereasoral ones are usuallytoo weak to penetrate that area at the base of the teeth.

Please keep me posted


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## Offspring2099 (Sep 6, 2006)

Thank you for your thought,

I talked to the vet again. He said he sent the pus into a lab to see ifbatryl will be strong enough to kill it. If not, it will bebeads time for Penny. 

I haven't seen her yet, I will as soon as I get off work, but my momsays that her right cheek is shaved. My question is dofeelers grow back,and do they take a while?


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## naturestee (Sep 6, 2006)

Her whiskers will grow back, although I'm not sure how long it will take.

Has your vet mentioned anything about injectable Bicillin(penicillin)? It's pretty commonly used for jaw abscess andthose where they can't be completely removed by surgery. It'sanother option to the bead.

http://www.ontariorabbits.org/health/healthinfo1.1.htm
http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/jawabscess.html

And there's some more acticles here:
http://homepage.mac.com/mattocks/morfz/rabrefs.html#abs

It's relatively new so your vet might not know about it yet.It's worth talking to him about if Penny needs a stronger antibiotic.

Keep us updated!


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## Offspring2099 (Sep 7, 2006)

I will talk to him about Bicillin. Ialways thought that penicillin was too strong of a antibiotic and willkill all the good bacteria in their stomach, but I'm reading thearticle now. THanks.


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## naturestee (Sep 7, 2006)

You're right that oral penicillin is very badfor rabbits. If it's in the digestive system then it doestend to kill off all the necessary helpful bacteria, which can be fatalfor rabbits. But injected penicillin shouldn't enter theintestines and can begood if it's used correctly.


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## Offspring2099 (Sep 7, 2006)

I didn't notice Penny eat, last night, but shedid poop.So I'm hoping she munched onsomething. The only thing she is eating out of our hands isdrinking carrot juice. We have a little bit of parsley,banana, apple, try to give her a bit of critical care and wateredpellets, but she gives up after a few chews. I think she isstill in pain.

The doctor said, two doses of painkiller a day, .5cceach. But he said 3 times a day wouldn't hurther. Would that be to much? I'm afraid that shewould be so druged she wouldn't eat, but if she is in too much pain shewon't even lie down. When she is pain she just huddles up inthe ball and sits in the corner. But after we give herpainkillers she relaxes a bit. 

That's what's been going on so far. Please let me know if I'm doing anything wrong. Thank you.


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## Haley (Sep 7, 2006)

hmmm. its hard to say.

Naturesteesaid beforethat the pain killers actuallysent her bun into stasis, and was fine once taken off. But Pipp wonteat unless she has her painkillers.

It depends so much on the bun. Is she eating right after you give her the pain meds? And is she drinking enough too?


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## naturestee (Sep 7, 2006)

I'd go for more painkillers if your vet said itwas okay. Also try syringing some lukewarm water or flavoredPedialyte into her. She might be a bit dehydrated, whichdoesn't help to make her feel good either.

Fey had the opposite reaction to painkillers. Instead ofrelaxing like Penny does, she hunched up in a corner and stopped eatingor moving. Since Penny relaxes after you give her thepainkiller, it's making her feel better and not worse.

Maybe she'd like the Critical Care if it was watered downmore? You could mix a little carrot juice in it if she likesthat. My buns love canned pumpkin as a treat, and I hide medsin it and use it for syringing food. Maybe she'd like alittle of that? You need to use 100% pure pumpkin, not thepumpkin pie mix.


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## Offspring2099 (Sep 7, 2006)

*Haley wrote: *


> hmmm. its hard to say.
> 
> Naturesteesaid beforethat the pain killers actuallysent her bun into stasis, and was fine once taken off. But Pipp wonteat unless she has her painkillers.
> 
> It depends so much on the bun. Is she eating right after you give her the pain meds? And is she drinking enough too?




I haven't seen her eat really. But she drink the carrot juice and water from saucer, not the bottle. 

***

naturestee, 

I'm going to get some pumpkin, and see if she eats that and will waterdown critical care. Thanks for the tips, I'll keep youinformed.


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## Haley (Sep 7, 2006)

hmm..I dont know, but in my opinion,I probably wouldnt increase the pain meds, especially if you havent seen her eat.

Try a little pumpkin on a spoon if you can. Another good one is tocrush up her pellets in a coffee grinder/processor..mix in a littlewater and pumpkin or banana to flavor it a little. 

Just be sure she is getting some solid food down (and lots of liquid with the meds)

Good Luck!


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## naturestee (Sep 7, 2006)

Are you syringing food into her mouth or justputting it in a bowl for her? She probably needs her foodsyringed, and she'll feel bad if she doesn't have anything in hersystem.

Do you have a water bowl for her? A bottle might hurt a little to drink from because she'd have to work harder.


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## Pipp (Sep 7, 2006)

What kind of pain meds? They usuallygiveMetacam (Meloxicam), but .5 is a high dosefor a mini-Rex. Pipp, a dwarf, gets half that every 24hours. So it may be something else.

FWIW, Metacam takes close to 10 hours to work, and has to be taken withfood to prevent an an upset tummy and with liquids to help with thekidneys. (It restricts blood flow to the kidneys andshouldn't be given to dehydrated rabbits). 

If it's not Metacam, nevermind! (Although the above is true for almost all NSAIDs, which would include Motrin, etc). 

Pipp also does better with a syringe even when taking herjuice. It maybe because the angle makes it easier to avoidthe sore spot(s), or she has a sore tongue from her spurs and doesn'thave to lap much. 

Definitely syringe feed her a pellet slurry asap, even if you have tomix it with the carrot juice (or banana or whatever else shelikes). 

It's tough because not only is the abscess spot sore, her jaw will bevery sore from being cranked open, which makes syringe feeding not sogreat if she won't take it willingly. But she absolutely hastoeat. That's critical.

Good luck with her. 

sas


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## Offspring2099 (Sep 8, 2006)

Haley,
For the life of me I can't find a store with pumpkins, they ALL willget pumpkins next week. Real pumpkins, not canned.There is a pumpkin patch outside the city. I will call and mygf will pick it up, she works close by. 

Naturestee,
She hasn't been eating on her own at all, so as soon as I got home wesyranged about 9-10 cc of critical care. Not too thick, nottoo watered down. 

Pipp,
The pain killers are Torbutrol. I think today will be thelast day we will give it to her three times a day, and start twice aday tomorrow. 


I took her 1cc syrange and cut off the tip, this way ALL of thecritical care can be sifened into the tube, all of the fiberystuff. I'm very glad that she ate. 
Also I asked the doctor for some meds to get her bowels moving becauseshe didn't go at all today. He gave me Cisapride, I was giventhis before btw and it worked before for stasis. 

About an hour ago I let Penny roam in her play area, and she startedpooping. Thank god. She pooped pretty good amount, thepellets are kind of hard but sticky. LIke they cecal pellets, butharder and twice as big if not more. 

Right now I noticed that her ears got a little bit cooler from whatthey were about 2-3 hrs ago, she is panting slightly, but laying withher back legs stretched out. So I guess that's better thanjust sitting in the corner. 

That's the update. Thank you so much for all your thoughts and input. 


EDIT: Almost forgot, on her cut, Penny has some kind of stickystuff. It looks like neosporin. Its white andmucky. Is that pus????? Maybe meds from the doc, or is thatthey way that the cuts heal on the rabbit?


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## Haley (Sep 8, 2006)

Glad to hear youre getting some food inher! The soft poops may be from the critical care andincreased liquids she's getting.

About the pumpkin..you can buy canned pumpkin, which is what most of ususe (an actually pumpkin would have to be cut up and mashed etc). Justmake sure when you buy the pumpkin, its "100% pure". Its usually inwith all the pumpkin pie fillings, but some are a pie filling and theothers are pure pumpkin,

My Basil will eat pumpkin off a spoon, but Max has to have it syringedin..you can mess with it to see what he will eat (add some mashedbanana or honey).

Good Luck!

Haley


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## Haley (Sep 8, 2006)

Missed your Edit!: 

Does it look like cottage cheese?? If yes, then its pus.

Rabbits lack anenzyme that other animals possess, which makestheir pus so much more difficult to deal with (it usually just cant bedrained bc its so thick).If theres more pus coming out, Iwould contact the vet.


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## Offspring2099 (Sep 8, 2006)

Haley,

I wish I read better last time about the pumkin. I was underimpression that I had to get 100% pure, meaning real pumking.Hehe. Anyways, we got a pumpkin now. 

What do you mean by 'cottage cheese'. Its notwhite. Its more clear like vasoline or petrolium jelly orlike neosporien.I think I confused when I saidwhite.


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## naturestee (Sep 8, 2006)

If it's clear, it probably isn't pus.Rabbit pus looks like cream cheese or white toothpaste (eww).It's probably normal lymph/white cells/healing stuff. Fey hada little thin, pale yellow discharge when she was healing from afighting wound and the vet said it was okay.


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## Offspring2099 (Sep 8, 2006)

*naturestee wrote:*


> If it's clear, it probably isn't pus. Rabbit puslooks like cream cheese or white toothpaste (eww). It'sprobably normal lymph/white cells/healing stuff. Fey had alittle thin, pale yellow discharge when she was healing from a fightingwound and the vet said it was okay.



That's what my mom said, lymph. I'm a little more calm about it now.Thanks. I just got home and totaly busted Penny munching onsome pellets. Yay! She is drinking a lot of water from thebottle. I can't wait to hear from the doctor abouther infection, I hope that original antibiotic is enough. Idont want her to suffer any longer. Btw only two doses ofpain killers today, and she is doing fine, as far as I cantell.


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## naturestee (Sep 8, 2006)

That's awesome! That means she's starting to feel better.


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## Haley (Sep 8, 2006)

Yay! Glad to hear things are looking up!


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## Offspring2099 (Sep 10, 2006)

Thank you for all the kind words.

Penny has been muching on pellets, I've caught her plenty of times, but still yet to see her eat her hay. 

She is eathing her veggies, but very little compaired to how she ateafter her previous tooth extraction. Last time she startedeating on second day. 

So since she is not eatting her hay, we are still syranching critialcare. I'll talk to the vet tomorrow and see whenwill he wants to see her to discuss if other teeth needs to beextracted.

I'm also very concerned about the opposing teeth. Will theyneed to be also extraced or trimed. Or which option isbetter. This realy worries me. 

Thanks for your thoughts, everyone.


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## Haley (Sep 13, 2006)

How's Penny doing? Ive been thinking about her.

About the teeth trimming, it really depends. My vet decided to leavethe opposing tooth in, and said he didnt want to remove it unless itwas causing a lot of difficulty to trim. That was an inscisor though.

Im not sure about molars, but I would assume they would just want to trim them. 

Please keep us posted...I really hope shes doing well ray:

-Haley


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## Offspring2099 (Sep 13, 2006)

Sorry, my job has caught up with me,

Two days ago (1 day shy of week after surgery), we decided to stopsyrange feeding Penny critical care. I think she took itwell, she is still pooping good and eating her timothy pellets anddrinking good. She also stopped droolingyesterday. 

I think tomorrow or in 2 days, we'll stop with pain killers and see how she reacts. 

She still is eating her veggies badly, few nibbles here and there, andnot very much hay. I'm trying to give her Alf alfa too, Iread that it tastes better. 

My next vet appointment is on Mon or Tues (I'll have to double check). 

I found out from the vet, that with two teeth removed there should beenough 'movement' in the jaw so that trimming will not be nessesery,but if two more need to be removed in the same spot then, yes we'llhave to think about it. 

Thanks for listening. I'll keep you updated.


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## Offspring2099 (Sep 16, 2006)

Penny is doing good. Eating pellets,carrot stripes, little bit of parsely and pooping good. Buttoday when I came home I decovered that in the middle of Pennys cut issome white stuff that looks like cottage cheeze. I have nodoubt that its the absess pus. I have an apt for tues.,hopefuly I can move it up closer. I'll shoot for sunday.


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## Haley (Sep 16, 2006)

Oh no! 

So, if it is more pus/abscess will he be implanting the beads? Poor little Penny.

Maybe when you're there you could ask him about the Bicillin..it mightbe worth a shot , as it would be less stressful and invasive for Penny.

Please keep us posted...two of my bunsdevelopedmouthabcesses within the last month, so Im curious to knowhow your vet proceeds.

I'll be praying for Penny ray:

-Haley


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## Offspring2099 (Sep 17, 2006)

THank you, I will talk to the vet tomorrow, even though her apt is not till Monday morning.


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## Offspring2099 (Sep 18, 2006)

Just had Penny at the vet, 

Doc said that the pus is draining, and is not in her jawbone, but it isthere. So we are putting in two antibiotic beads, twodifferent antibiotics. He is also familiar with Binicilin, hesaid that he mostly hassuccess with it, and will start offPenny immediately after the surgery. He also noted that hehad some buns get sick from it

I'm just praying now.


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## Haley (Sep 18, 2006)

So is he doing both the beads and the injection? 

Poor little Penny, but at least its not in her jawbone. Hopefully, withsome more aggressive antibiotics, she can kick this nasty thing. 

I'll be keeping her in my prayers as well. Basil and Max know how she feels...dang these abscesses!


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## Offspring2099 (Sep 18, 2006)

Haley, 

Yes both,Penny is going in for surgery soon for the beads,and after that he will give her a starting shot of binicilin.

Anyone here given shots, I wonder if it isa big shot, howmany cc? I'm not looking forward in doing that at all, but I'll do whatI have to do. 

Thank you for your thoughts and prayers.


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## Offspring2099 (Sep 18, 2006)

Doc said everything went well, we'll get to see her tomorrow morning. He wanted to keep her in for the night.


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## Haley (Sep 18, 2006)

I'll be praying for the little one...Get better little Penny! 

You are a saint for taking such good care of her, I know it must becosting you a small fortune. She is a very lucky little girl.


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## naturestee (Sep 19, 2006)

*Haley wrote: *


> I'll be praying for the little one...Get better little Penny!
> 
> You are a saint for taking such good care of her, I know it must becosting you a small fortune. She is a very lucky little girl.


:yeahthat

How's she doing today?


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## Offspring2099 (Sep 19, 2006)

Thank you for kind words and prayers.

I just got an 'ok' for Penny to go home. My mom is on herway. I'm stuck at work, like always. She'll bring her home,I'll see her when I get home.


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## Offspring2099 (Sep 19, 2006)

Penny is back and recovering.

I have a question about Bicillin. Doc told me to give Pennyshots of Bicilin, but on her back size, where you can pull her skinback easly. But I read that ppl giving their buns shots closeto where the infection is/was. Should I talk to thedoctor or is this fine???

Thank you.


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## Haley (Sep 20, 2006)

hmm..I dont have any experience with it. I wouldjust follow the vets instructions...he sounds like he really knows whathe's doing.

Keep us posted...and, as usual, I'll be keeping Penny in my thoughts and prayers.


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## naturestee (Sep 20, 2006)

I've heard of doing it both ways.Usually with an abscess they give the shot in or near the infectionsite, but if it's a difficult spot to inject her then they do it in adifferent area. For example, Bicillin is sometimes given forear infections and they can't inject there.


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## Offspring2099 (Sep 21, 2006)

Guys I need help,

Penny hasn't been pooping very well at all in the last 3 days after hersurgery on Mon. Maybe 5-10 pellets a day!!!! She isgetting enough water from what I can tell. She nibbles onsome veggies a little. I caught her eating some timothy pellets 2 daysago. And we are feeding her critical care everyday. 

She is also on cisapride, which is either some kind of simulant orenzime. I'm not sure, but the doc always used this medication to getthe blockage moving in our buns. Also Penny is on Bicilin,but the doctor said, if she gets sick from Bicillin it would be runnypoop.

I really need help, because my vet is not in till saturday. I dont want to waste a day, and it be too late. 

Thank you.


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## Haley (Sep 21, 2006)

I dont know too much about stasis, but she should be pooping more than she is.

Are you syringing her the food to be sure shes getting enough? It alsomight be the bicillin is upsetting her stomach or something. Is thereanother vet in the area you could call and describe the situation to?They might want to take her off the bicillin or something...or is sheon pain meds? That might have something to do with it too.

For now, I would just be sure she is eating and drinking and maybe get her some baby gas meds.

Hopefully someone with more experience can jump in, Im just guessing.

I'll be praying for little Penny ray:

-Haley


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## Pipp (Sep 22, 2006)

If she's pooping normal sized poops, she's notcritical, but you may want to mix pumpkin with her Critical Care, ormaybe she'll eat some on her own. Pumpkin really helpsgenerate the poops. 

You can also mix alittle Pedialyte with the Critical Care.

Did she get post-op pain medication? 

And how often are you giving her the Critical Care? You can give it to her every few hours if she likes it. 

Also keep trying to entice her with her favourite foods.

She's going tobe feeling a lot of discomfort betweenthesurgery and the meds. Just keep fussing overher. 

We'll all be praying for poops for you!



sas and the gang


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## Offspring2099 (Sep 22, 2006)

Her poops are not normal size, they aresmall. Very small. And 10 poop a day might bepushing it. Realy like 5 or 6. 

She is on torbutrol for pain. On this pain med, she hasstarted eating on the 2nd day on her previous surgery. 

About critical care, we try to give her at least 30-35cc in the morningand the evening each. She HATES it. We have to puther in the towel and syrange it. I feel like we aretorchering her. 

Also, is pedialyte for gas?

Thanks for all the help guys.


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## Pipp (Sep 22, 2006)

Try to make the Critical Caretastebetter for her, with the canned pumpkin and even a little honey, orbanana, apple juice or apple sauce. .I had goodluck with carrotjuice.

Or you may be better offsoaking some of her own pellets inwater and mix that up with some pumpkin or any of the above.Or Pedialyte, which is something that babies get fordehydration. A lot of bunnies like it.

Poor little girl. 



sas ray:


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## Pipp (Sep 22, 2006)

PS: You should really try and find theNutri-Cal. It's really easy to give it to her, you just put aribbon of it on her paw and mush it down and she'll lick itoff. It's been mentioned before, but it's a high calorienutritional supplement for cats and dogs that works very well forrabbits needing to keep their strength up. 



sas


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## naturestee (Sep 22, 2006)

Simethicone is for the gas. Pedialyteis to help keep her hydrated. Small poops can sometimes behelped by giving more fluids.

Is she moving around much? Movement can stimulate the intestines and help them to move.


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## Haley (Sep 22, 2006)

How is Penny doing today?


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## Offspring2099 (Sep 22, 2006)

I'm starting to worry, 

Penny hasn't pooped in 24 hrs. She is defenetly gettingenough movement, we let her out in the morning for about1-2hrs. And for the last 3 days, I've been letting her out inthe eventing for a lot more then usual, about 2-3 hours. 

Is this the correct Nutri-cal? ---&gt;http://www.nutri-cal.com/products.htm

When she is in this mood, she hates ALL of her favorite food.Doesn't eat by herself. Hates all the goodies. ButI'll keep trying to give her different stuff, but basicaly we have toforce feed. 

Also on another note, she is not huddled up in the corner, which iswhat I read what happens in stasis. She lays down, and 40% ofthe time even stretches out which her back paws sprawledout. So it doesn't look that she is indiscomfort. But still no poop, since last morning. 

Thank you for all ideas they are greatly appriciated.


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## AngelnSnuffy (Sep 22, 2006)

My prayers are w/ you and your baby. I hope she recovers and soon. Poor thing. ray:


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## Haley (Sep 22, 2006)

If she hasnt pooped in 24 hours, I would get herto the vet asap. Or at least see if you can get a phone appt. If yourvet is out today, see if they can refer you to someone who can give yousome advice.

Nutrical is this:http://www.millpledge.com/preparations/nutrical.htmImpretty sure you can get it from your vet.

So is she able to get some food down if you force feed? Is she gettingenough liquid? It could be the pain from the surgery, or allthe meds shes on that are causing the upset tummy.Wish therewas more I could do to help. Poor Penny .


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## m.e. (Sep 22, 2006)

ray:


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## Offspring2099 (Sep 22, 2006)

She gets all of what we syrange toher. But I haven't seen her drinkingmuch. Her pee is very mucky. Not veryliquidy at all. I think I'm going to call the other doctorsin that the same vet unit. They are prett good, just not asgood as this guy.


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## Offspring2099 (Sep 22, 2006)

"It could be the pain from the surgery, or allthe meds shes on that are causing the upset tummy.Wish therewas more I could do to help. Poor Penny ."



Haley, thats the crazy thing that confuses me. If its thepain. Her surgery 3 weeks agowas WAY more intence,where she had her jaw bone dug in, but this last surgery,just an incision. And she was eating by day 2 thetime before this.

And the only thing we are doing different is Bicillin. Couldthe Bicillin be killing all good bacterica in her stomach?


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## m.e. (Sep 22, 2006)

I hope that yourvet has been giving injections, because Bicillin should *never* begiven orally. Injections of Bicillin (or PennG) can sometimes lead to adecreased appetite, but it's usually not too serious. When given orallyit can cause significant, even fatal, digestive problems.


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## Offspring2099 (Sep 22, 2006)

Shots only. We are giving her shotsonce a day for the first week. Then the doc said, once everyother day in week2. No oral. I made sure to talk tomy vet about it, he actualy told me that first.

EDIT: He stated that he gave her the initial *shot. *When she recieved her first dose at the vets, on monday.


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## m.e. (Sep 22, 2006)

That's great  I must have missed where you said it earlier, sorry about that.

It's possible that Bicillin is causing a decreased appetite, but that'sactually a pretty rare side effect for an injectable antibiotic. Youmention the pain med torbutrol, which can also lead to a decreasedappetite. But of course, she wasn't feeling ill on it before.

I really wish I had more advice for you, but it sounds like you'redoing everything you can. If you feel like she's becoming dehydrated orgetting weaker, then it would definitely be time to call the vet.


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## Offspring2099 (Sep 22, 2006)

No no don't worry about it. All the input is helpful. Better twice then never. 

The thing about Penny so far she hasn't acted that she is going intostasis. When I let her out, she lays down, but makes a few trips aroundthe room and the hall, once in a while. 

I have been messaging her belly a little.


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## naturestee (Sep 22, 2006)

There was someone who's rabbit had decreasedappetite from injected Bicillin. I think it wasHoneypot? There's so many humans that are allergic topenicillin-type antibiotics I wouldn't be surprised if a few rabbitshave problems with it too. It might be worth discussing withyour vet. Maybe an antibiotic-laced bead would be a betteroption for her *if* the Bicillin is the problem.

You can get Nutri-Cal at a lot of petstores. I bought mine atPetsmart in the dog section. The B vitamins in it can helpstimulate the appetite, plus it's a handy way to increase the caloriesin pellet mush or just by smushing it on a paw.

Does her belly feel swollen from gas at all?

Since it's been 24 hours without poop, it would probably be a good ideato call your vet and talk to him. He might have some ideas onhow to help her, or he might want to see her to see if there's anythingwrong that might be causing this.


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## Offspring2099 (Sep 22, 2006)

Naturestee,

On monday, Penny got beads implanted as well as started her Bicillin treatment. 

I just talked to a vet. Not my guy though, same vet place. Hesaid bring her in, they will give her fluid under the skin and someenzimes. 

I just read somewhere that a rabbit went through 2 weeks withoutpooping. Has anyone else seen this. This seems impossible,considering stasis can start in rabbits if they don't poop within24hrs. 


EDIT: So I'm bring Penny in, asap, after I get off work. Andon the way I'll stop by at the local pet shop for some Nutri-Cal.


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## naturestee (Sep 22, 2006)

I think I've heard of similar cases, but Iforget if the rabbit survived. Stasis does set in, but withproper treatment a rabbit can be brought out of it.


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## Offspring2099 (Sep 23, 2006)

Yesterday at the vet, the doc gave Penny a shot of fluids, something to move her poop and checked her stomach.
He said that he doesn't believe its stasis.
We took her home no poop last night, but today in the morning she pooped 12-13 pellets, after 48hrs of no poop.
Her poop came out with some stuff I've never seen before. Itlooked like glue. All of her poops were attached to somestuff that looks like rubber snot, it's semi clear.

I think that Bicillin is killing her apetite, and we will have to forcefeed her for a while till she gets off Bicillin. Oh thissucks, but I'm so what relieved that she pooped. I couldn'trealy sleep last night, cause I'm worring so much.

Thanks again everyone.


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## naturestee (Sep 23, 2006)

The "rubber snot" is mucous from theintestines. It builds up when the intestines aren't moving asmuch as normal and/or from bacterial issues in theintestines. I'm not a big believer in probiotics for rabbits,but you could try adding Benebac to her Critical Care/pelletmush. Critical Care has some probiotic stuff added, but Idon't know how effective dried bacteria are. You can getBenebac from a lot of pet stores. The small animal, bird,cat, and dog versions should all be the same ingredient but indifferent sizes. 

Did the vet say she was dehydrated? If so, encourage her todrink more with flavored water and syringe more water into her.


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## Offspring2099 (Sep 23, 2006)

Thank you,

Yes vet said that he believes its dehyration. That why he gave her a shot of fluids under skin. 

I went and got pedialyte as you guys told me. And we started syranging that also with water. 

After her morning poops that I mentioned, she pooped about 10 morepellets a least. And I caught her drinking watertwice. I hope she is coming out of it. 

I will look into Benebac, thanks again.


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## naturestee (Sep 23, 2006)

At least it sounds like she's doing better. Are the poops looking more normal now?


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## Offspring2099 (Sep 23, 2006)

Poops are getting better, they are not round,but like an oval, but nice size. They are hard, but have asmall amount of sticky layer on them. 

I just caught Penny muching on some parsely. I haven't seenher do that in the last 3 week. Only a few times. 

EDIT: AND SHE IS EATING HER TIMOTHY PELLETS AS I TYPE!!! YAY!!!!


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## Haley (Sep 23, 2006)

Oh Im so glad to read this!

I was gone all day today and thinking of Penny. I was hoping she was improving. 

Did the vet say anything about the injections of Bicillin maybe causinga problem? I dont know much about antibiotics, but it seems like thebeads by themselves would provide enough and you wouldnt need theBicillin. I just wonder if its a lot for her system to take.

Anyway, glad to hear shes feeling better! Keep us posted


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## Offspring2099 (Sep 24, 2006)

Haley, I'm so happy too, thanks for thinking about Penny.

I had two vets tell me that the buns that got sick from Bicillin had runny poop, but never constipation. 
The vet yesterday said that Bicillin and other drugs might have causedher to have loss in apitite. So after reading here that vitamin Braises the apitite my mom got Penny vitamin B1, B6 and Folic acid(another vitamin B). She also got penny some soil basedorganizms with different lacto-bacilles. An hour after wecruched and put the vitamins in water and syranged it to her, shestarted eating. 

She is still making trips to the her food and poopin. Shestill has 2 and half weeks of Bicillin. She realy doesn'tmind the shot to the back of her neck, but my mom tried her butt andPenny ran off and thumped. I think there is less nerveendings in the back of the neck, where the mom takes the baby and pickit up. 

Anyways, I'm happy tonight. PHew.


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## Pipp (Sep 24, 2006)

Yay Penny! Keep it up! 

The Nutri-Cal has vitamin B's, which is one reason it works sowell.  Good call! You're doing a greatjob with her! 



sas and the buns:bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance:


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## Haley (Sep 24, 2006)

Hey, and I love your avatar!

is that her? way too cute!


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## Offspring2099 (Sep 24, 2006)

Thanks guys, I was on my way to get Nutri-care but my mom told me she has enough vitamin B in the house. 

Lol, the avatar is Molly. She used to make nests before shewas spayed. It was so cute, she would gather anything shecould find into a corner and then sit there for at least aday. Somebody told me that Molly was having falsepregnancies.


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## Haley (Sep 25, 2006)

Molly is such a doll! Do you have a blog on here? I would love to see your pics!

How is Penny doing today??


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## Offspring2099 (Sep 25, 2006)

Hehe, Molly is a cute one, I'll start a blog soon, there are plenty of pictures to share.

Penny seems to get her appetite back every morning after we give hervitam B stuff I mentioned earlier, pain killers, and cisapride to moveher track and pedialyte. Then she poops nice size poops,which are green and not as dark as they used to be. Then inthe mornings she is huddled up in a corner and no poops in thenight. 

So she poops through the day, but no poops at night. Maybeits because she sit in the her rabbit house and there is not enoughmovement to stimulate her intestine. After all she hasn't hadmuch hay in about 3 or more weeks. 

My next recheckup is on Wed. 

I have one quesiton. How much pedialyte should we give Penny? She is about 5-6lbs. Thank you.


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## Haley (Sep 25, 2006)

Is she unable to eat the hay? If shes notgetting hay, are her pellets timothy hay pellets that you can grind up?I think having that hay helps a lot with intestinal movement.

Heres a great link for calculating dosage by weight of the rabbit.Pedialyte is on there:http://homepage.mac.com/mattocks/morfz/rx/drugcalc.html

Hope that helps. Keep up the good work!


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## Offspring2099 (Sep 25, 2006)

Thank you for the drug calc. 

Penny is eating her timothy hay pellets very good, but not the timothyhay itself. We have an apt. for wed. Hopefuly herteeth are alright.


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## Haley (Sep 30, 2006)

How's Penny doing??


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## Offspring2099 (Oct 2, 2006)

Since Penny is doing good, I'll just take this to the Blog section.

http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=16313&amp;forum_id=6



Thank you so much everyone!!!!


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