# Example of why stricter laws are being pushed...



## wendymac (Jul 15, 2012)

Okay, someone just posted this picture of their doe. It's currently in labor, with apparently a stuck kit. What alarms me is the drop tray. It's completely filled and coming up through the bottom of the cage. THIS is why ARAs are pushing for inspections for ALL rabbitries. It's not difficult to keep drop trays clean, so why is this rabbit practically standing in her own waste???

And, just as alarming, she had 1 kit so far, on the wire. The owner put it in the nest box. The wire is filthy, and a newborn was touching the floor of this cage and then stuck into a clean nest box? Wow....

Anyway, this is why I'm torn on this new law. If everyone kept their trays dumped (and other common, basic animal care practices) then ARA wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

If someone were to turn her rabbitry in, and her rabbits were taken, the "excuse" would be that she was being targeted and all charges were made up. 

Anyway, off my soapbox. You can see for yourselves and come to your own conclusions. Maybe I'm just being too particular and this is the norm.


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## fantaysah (Jul 15, 2012)

Looks dirty to me. Where was this posted? Poor rabbit obviously doesn't know what to do.


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## audrinasmommy88 (Jul 15, 2012)

That is so sad...and that cage is disgusting! I am appalled


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## Samara (Jul 15, 2012)

It makes me sick to my stomach


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## Ape337 (Jul 15, 2012)

And look at the nails on her!! Poor bunny


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## LakeCondo (Jul 15, 2012)

Is this an intentional breeder?


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## wendymac (Jul 15, 2012)

It was posted on Members of ARBA's page. And the picture is no longer there, or any of the posts. I'm hoping it's not because it was someone on this forum. I can't even remember the name of the person that posted it. 

When I look at it really closely, it appears as if some sort of grass/weed has actually started growing. Which make sense, because it would take a tiny rabbit a VERY long time to fill up a drop tray. Poor bun...


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## wendymac (Jul 15, 2012)

Yes, it's intentional. They said it was her second litter, and delivered one kit but nothing else after...that she was just sitting in the corner, straining, like she has a kit stuck.


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## LindseyG (Jul 15, 2012)

Poor bun. That is ridiculously dirty! I am all for stricter laws but i am against being forced to pay a huge licensing fee and allowing people to come to my home.


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## wendymac (Jul 15, 2012)

Same here, Lyndsey. But it's people like the one above that cause the problems. I finally found the post, and it's from Lost-Jewel Rabbitry in Canada. Anyone heard of them before??

I come from a long line of animal caretakers. It was instilled in me, from day one, that animals get taken care of before yourself. Animals are all fed before you get breakfast/lunch/supper...along with other basic needs. Heck, even at a horse show I was always told the horse first, then you. So I'd come out of a class dying from the heat...and still make sure my horse had water, his saddle loosened/removed (depending on when the next class was), full hay bag, etc...and THEN I could grab a drink and relax in the shade. I've instilled those same values into my kids, too.

But when breeders keep animals in conditions like this, it puts all of us under the microscope. How do conditions like this end, if not for inspections/pop visits??


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## DharmaBuns (Jul 15, 2012)

Oh wow...I saw this on that page as well. 

Honestly, there's no excuse for a cage like that. There's someone in my state that constantly posts pictures of his rabbits in horrendous conditions. I have no idea how they think it is OKAY to house their rabbits like that.

Obviously, I think that the majority of people take great care of their rabbits but the bad apples always tend to stand out and that's what the ARA's use as media fodder.


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## Nancy McClelland (Jul 15, 2012)

:banghead That is truly someone that "I would cordially invite to attend the theological place of eternal punishment".


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## wendymac (Jul 15, 2012)

I know...it's sad! It's the bad apples that ruin things for everyone. I just can't believe they posted this picture and nobody has said anything. It's taking everything I have not to post something, "It wouldn't hurt to dump and clean that drop tray".


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## I_heart_Fraggles (Jul 15, 2012)

I respect a lot of the breeders here on the forum who have good practices. I edited the title of the petition post as the OP was unable to and I understand the need for good breeding programs. 
But I did not sign the petition myself because I am hoping it will put the "bunny mills" out of business. The day I got Fraggles her "breeder" had over 100 rabbits in outdoor hutches. When I walked threw this maze of hutches I noticed almost every water bottle was bone dry and it was explained to me that you can keep bunnies in "hutches for years and you never have to let them out" She had the age of each animal posted on each hutch. 3 years old, 5 years old, 7 years old ect...That is how many years those bunnies had lived in those hutches. Thats were Fraggles came from. I have a hard time supporting breeders.


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## woahlookitsme (Jul 15, 2012)

AHHHHHHHH I know this person. They are on Rabbit Addict! This is sad and I never would have expected it from them. . .


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## wendymac (Jul 15, 2012)

Katie, it isn't going to stop the "bunny mills". They'll continue to breed and slide through under the radar. What it will do is hurt the responsible ones. 

I can't stand it when a well-known breeder has problems and gets their animals taken. The last case that made the show bunny list was some Bell woman. I don't know her, but she apparently was a judge and breeder. The pictures posted were horrible. I don't care if it was only 15 out of 100 rabbits...NONE should have been let go like that. Filthy water crocks, no food/hay, and drop pans even worse than the one above. Her rabbits were nothing but a big, huge matted mess...standing in fecal matter piled really high in their cages, water crocks either completely empty or with a bit of dirty water and fecal matter in them. Absolutely disgusting.

Sarah, that stinks. I don't know this person, but couldn't believe she posted that picture. I'm still waiting, but nobody else has said anything. If nothing is posted in a few hours, I'm going to say something.


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## flexeril (Jul 15, 2012)

Hi, could someone tell me about this law/licensing you guys talk about?


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## woahlookitsme (Jul 15, 2012)

There are many new threads talking about it but someone posted this VERY HELPFUL and informative link about the laws
http://rabbitsmarties.com/2012/07/aphis-rabbits-proposed-change-affect-bunny-breeders/


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## woahlookitsme (Jul 15, 2012)

AND. . . 
I commented on it.


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## wendymac (Jul 15, 2012)

And so did I! I was about to, then I saw you did, so added mine. LOL


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## wendymac (Jul 15, 2012)

Okay, why would you set them directly on a dirt floor? No wonder she has fecal matter in the actual cage...nowhere else for it to go. Yuck!!


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## woahlookitsme (Jul 15, 2012)

I have no clue. Increase the chances of getting coccidia though being so close to the dirt like that


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## wendymac (Jul 15, 2012)

No kidding. When I was assembling cage parts I was short a tray for the one cage TSC NEVER seems to buy the same amount of cages and trays!) so I took 4 small bricks and placed them on their sides...and then put each corner on the edge of the brick. That way their urine and fecal matter went onto the floor and they weren't standing in it. Very unsanitary, for sure!


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## Lost Jewel Rabbitry (Jul 17, 2012)

ASK BEFORE POSTING!!! This is my rabbit, and she is on the DIRT GROUND because her cage is OUTSIDE!!!! How SELFISH of YOU to post something like this about MY RABBITS without even thinking to ASK ME


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## Lost Jewel Rabbitry (Jul 17, 2012)

wendymac wrote:


> Okay, why would you set them directly on a dirt floor? No wonder she has fecal matter in the actual cage...nowhere else for it to go. Yuck!!



She's in an outdoor cage currently, because it's summer time. There is actually space from the cage to the ground, and underneath the cage gets cleaned twice a week, so their poop doesn't build up. We also MOVE the wire cage to grassy areas consistently so they have fresh area to sit on


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## Lost Jewel Rabbitry (Jul 17, 2012)

wendymac wrote:


> Okay, someone just posted this picture of their doe. It's currently in labor, with apparently a stuck kit. What alarms me is the drop tray. It's completely filled and coming up through the bottom of the cage. THIS is why ARAs are pushing for inspections for ALL rabbitries. It's not difficult to keep drop trays clean, so why is this rabbit practically standing in her own waste???
> 
> And, just as alarming, she had 1 kit so far, on the wire. The owner put it in the nest box. The wire is filthy, and a newborn was touching the floor of this cage and then stuck into a clean nest box? Wow....
> 
> ...



Firt of all, it's an outdoor cage just above ground, we don't use drop trays if the rabbit is OUTSIDE.
Second, don't lie and make up ****. She kindled TWO LIVE kits in the NESTBOX, and kindled 2 DEAD ones out of the nestbox, of course I desposed of the dead ones, and the live ones are FINE.


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## Lost Jewel Rabbitry (Jul 17, 2012)

audrinasmommy88 wrote:


> That is so sad...and that cage is disgusting! I am appalled



Those aren't her nails, that's fur on the GROUND because she was pulling FUR. I trim nails every 3 weeks.


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## Lost Jewel Rabbitry (Jul 17, 2012)

wendymac wrote:


> It was posted on Members of ARBA's page. And the picture is no longer there, or any of the posts. I'm hoping it's not because it was someone on this forum. I can't even remember the name of the person that posted it.
> 
> When I look at it really closely, it appears as if some sort of grass/weed has actually started growing. Which make sense, because it would take a tiny rabbit a VERY long time to fill up a drop tray. Poor bun...



OMG. Grass and weeds grow OUTSIDE because the rabbit was ON THE GROUND!!!!


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## Lost Jewel Rabbitry (Jul 17, 2012)

Here are the cages, on the GROUND.


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## TRKHoppyHomesteadRabbitry (Jul 17, 2012)

Shame on you Wendymac!!! Ignorance like TAKING someone ELSE'S picture and posting LIES and or about something YOU DON'T know is what gets us in trouble!!! I can CLEARLY see this rabbit is clean and that her nails aren't long! That's her fur!  Shame! Shame on you! I know you on FB and will make sure you are NOT accepted into my rabbit group! I don't need liers in there causing problems where there aren't any!


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## MiniLopHop (Jul 17, 2012)

Not to add fuel to the fire, but it still looks dirty to me. But I never let my rabbits touch the ground for fear of them picking up something nasty. :dunno

As for the new laws, I hope it targets back yard breeders, but unfortunately they probably will not pay any attention. It might give animal welfare more ammunition to go after them though.


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## audrinasmommy88 (Jul 17, 2012)

I dont understand why I was quoted and then the reply had nothing to do with what I said. I didnt say anything about the nails. To me, the cage is dirty and could use some work. Why get so defensive if you think you are doing nothing wrong? and next time you quote somebody, make sure you are quoting the right person


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## wendymac (Jul 17, 2012)

Posting lies? I posted what SHE posted on the FB page. When she posted this, she said that one was born on the wire and she was straining like she had one stuck. While you see a clean cage, most of us see a rabbit standing in fecal matter. Period. What part of that was a lie?


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## wendymac (Jul 17, 2012)

TRKHoppyHomesteadRabbitry wrote:


> Shame on you Wendymac!!! Ignorance like TAKING someone ELSE'S picture and posting LIES and or about something YOU DON'T know is what gets us in trouble!!! I can CLEARLY see this rabbit is clean and that her nails aren't long! That's her fur!  Shame! Shame on you! I know you on FB and will make sure you are NOT accepted into my rabbit group! I don't need liers in there causing problems where there aren't any!



OMG! I can't join yet another rabbit page on FB? Whatever will I do? *voice dripping sarcasm here*

And I didn't steal the picture...to insert pictures, you copy the image url (in this case, FB storage). And I also said who the picture belongs to. I certainly didn't claim it as my own!

Which part, in particular, is a lie? The fecal matter? The weeds? The unsanitary conditions (and no, dirt is NOT sanitary)?


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## wendymac (Jul 17, 2012)

Lost Jewel Rabbitry wrote:


> Here are the cages, on the GROUND.



What is sheltering them from the sun/rain/etc? What keeps a predator from getting to them?


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## Lost Jewel Rabbitry (Jul 17, 2012)

wendymac wrote:


> Posting lies? I posted what SHE posted on the FB page. When she posted this, she said that one was born on the wire and she was straining like she had one stuck. While you see a clean cage, most of us see a rabbit standing in fecal matter. Period. What part of that was a lie?



No I did not say she kindled one on the wire then said she was straining. She kindled TWO in the nestbox, and was sitting there looking like she had a stuck, THEN she kindled a stuck kit later on


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## Lost Jewel Rabbitry (Jul 17, 2012)

wendymac wrote:


> TRKHoppyHomesteadRabbitry wrote:
> 
> 
> > Shame on you Wendymac!!! Ignorance like TAKING someone ELSE'S picture and posting LIES and or about something YOU DON'T know is what gets us in trouble!!! I can CLEARLY see this rabbit is clean and that her nails aren't long! That's her fur!  Shame! Shame on you! I know you on FB and will make sure you are NOT accepted into my rabbit group! I don't need liers in there causing problems where there aren't any!
> ...



Dirt is part of nature, dirt is fine. I played in the dirt and mud as a child, and I'm perfectly fine. Rabbits in the wild build their dens in the dirt, they're fine.

Also, taking a picture without permission from the owner is stealing it


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## Lost Jewel Rabbitry (Jul 17, 2012)

wendymac wrote:


> Lost Jewel Rabbitry wrote:
> 
> 
> > Here are the cages, on the GROUND.
> ...



Here's the sheltering from the sun/rain/etc. a huge roof. Most of our yard is fenced, and we have never had a problem with "predators"


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## MiniLopHop (Jul 17, 2012)

If you cite where the photo is from, which Wendy did, it is not stealing.


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## wendymac (Jul 17, 2012)

Too many quotes in that post to actually quote it, but here:

"Dirt is part of nature, dirt is fine. I played in the dirt and mud as a child, and I'm perfectly fine. Rabbits in the wild build their dens in the dirt, they're fine.

Also, taking a picture without permission from the owner is stealing it"

Dirt may be a part of nature, but it's definitely not free of bacteria/disease/parasites. Rabbits in the wild don't have a very good survival rate, either. And they are carriers of bacteria/disease/parasites, which is why everything on the internet states not to put a wild bunny in with any of your herd.

I didn't take anything. I shared what you freely posted on an OPEN forum. If it was off of your website you would hold the copyright to it, and that would be stealing. Taking it and claiming it as my own would be stealing it.

Anyway, it would be great if you could answer some of the questions. I know I'm always curious to see what works/doesn't work, and take bits and pieces and change things that I do.


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## wendymac (Jul 17, 2012)

Lost Jewel Rabbitry wrote:


> Here's the sheltering from the sun/rain/etc. a huge roof. Most of our yard is fenced, and we have never had a problem with "predators"



Well, can't incorporate putting any cages outside, because my barn doesn't have a huge roof like that. We also have coyotes and bears.


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## 4kr (Jul 17, 2012)

Just some curious questions here...when it rains does it splash mud on the rabbits? What about ants/rodents getting into their feed or onto the buns themselves? One thing that I noticed was the 1"x2" floor which probably isn't comfortable on their little hocks. Coyotes, dogs, and other predictors would be a concern for me too...or even snakes coming into the cage to eat the kits. I'm just thinking out-loud here, not trying to start anything. She is a gorgeous bunny!


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## DharmaBuns (Jul 17, 2012)

I can't speak for anyone else, but I personally would never let my rabbits be straight on the dirt, ESPECIALLY a doe that is just kindling. My Tans are sometimes not too reliable about being 100% on using nestboxes and I wouldn't want a kit to be born right there on the dirt and feces. 

We also have quite a few coyotes and bears, not to mention a few stray cats and raccoons. I'd be terrified that something would get to them.


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## Lost Jewel Rabbitry (Jul 17, 2012)

DharmaBuns wrote:


> I wouldn't want a kit to be born right there on the dirt and feces.



I knew for a fact that it was going to be dead anyways, so I didn't care where it was born, as long as she was able to get it out of her body safely.

She kindled her 2 live kits in the nestbox with me sitting there watching to make sure she was alright


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## majorv (Jul 17, 2012)

To each his own, I guess. I prefer my rabbits cages to be off the ground, even if it's just to put a brick under each corner of the cage. I agree with 4kr that the floor grid is not the best spacing for a dwarf breed. I noticed that the other cages have the small grid spacing/baby saver wire.


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## silversky2668 (Jul 17, 2012)

Not only the feces, but doesn't the dirt get soaked with the urine? :? I wouldn't think that could be good for the rabbit to be sitting on all of the time.


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## JadeIcing (Jul 17, 2012)

At this point I think all sides have been stated. I can see where the wendymac is coming from and I can also see where Lost Jewel Rabbitry is confident in how she runs her rabbitry. While some may see it as wrong, or not the way they would do something doesn't make them right. Not saying it makes them wrong either.I can see it isn't long nails in the first picture, to me I was thinking fur even before I continued reading. The rabbits,look clean, and healthy. Maybe the set-up is not to some peoples standards but these are not our rabbits, this is not our rabbitry.

Something I used to myself and friends on here. You don't have to have the answer to everything. Your way is not the only way. We are not the bunny police. We are here to help ALL bunnies (sometimes other animals) no matter the circumstances. We are working at making this forum a learning tool for all bunny owners and possibly even a tool to use to find new and interesting ways to better the lives of an animal we all hold dear. 


Lost Jewel I ask that you please stick around, post an intro let us know about you and your rabbits. We love seeing cute rabbits. You have two of my fave breeds! 

Forum Decorum <--- for the rules. :big wink:


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## Pipp (Jul 17, 2012)

:yeahthat:

All parties! Be NICE! The tone in this thread is terrible.  

Don't make me come in here, now. 

:nonono:


sas :community:


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## I_heart_Fraggles (Jul 18, 2012)

I can do that....dang it now this post makes me sense also....


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## wendymac (Jul 18, 2012)

LOL! It's a vicious cycle. haha Sorry!!


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## wendymac (Jul 18, 2012)

Actually, I owe Lost Jewel an apology. I've been having trouble with Verizon (frequent disconnects, random upload times where I can actually upload anything, etc) and I apparently saved the image and uploaded it. I have removed it from my gallery. I could have sworn I copied the url, but I didn't. 

I apologize, Lost Jewel! In case you don't check this thread again, I've also sent an apology via PM.


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## MyBabyHasPaws (Jul 18, 2012)

dang it, wish I could have seen this famous picture. :confused2:


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## Shaded Night Rabbitry (Jul 18, 2012)

The image is not that special. Just a doe straining in a corner of a cage that's on the ground.

Hailey, you know I enjoy you and consider you an acquaintance, I'm sorry to see you selling out of NDs, Tina and I had planned on bringing some stock up to you in the fall. (Actually, had you made up your mind on a color, we would have sent you home with a new buck from WA con, but we couldn't tell if you had really made up your mind or not! lol)

I do not mind cages being housed outside. I highly recommend replacing your floor wire, 1x2 is simply far too large. I'm surprised you haven't had a broken leg from it, I know I probably would have by now. 1/2 x 1 is a comfortable size. 1/2 by 1/2, or a few EZ matts in the cage will help if you end up getting into mini rex.

I also agree with the brick idea, but it's your rabbitry, have it how you want it. 

Ever have any questions or need to talk, I'm only a text or FB message away. I still have your number, don't know if you still have mine!


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## Lost Jewel Rabbitry (Jul 18, 2012)

Shaded Night Rabbitry wrote:


> The image is not that special. Just a doe straining in a corner of a cage that's on the ground.
> 
> Hailey, you know I enjoy you and consider you an acquaintance, I'm sorry to see you selling out of NDs, Tina and I had planned on bringing some stock up to you in the fall. (Actually, had you made up your mind on a color, we would have sent you home with a new buck from WA con, but we couldn't tell if you had really made up your mind or not! lol)
> 
> ...



Thank you Megan, that means a lot. You definitely should have asked, I wanted some sort of shaded color in ND either way! 
I'm really sad to see my ND's go, but like you and Tina suggested, it would be easier to just concentrate on one breed, and like the crazy person I am, I can not choose between either Lions or Netherlands, so I'm selling out of them both and switching to a different favorite breed. Once I graduate and move out, I UNDOUBTEDLY will be getting back into Netherlands, and I'll definitely go to you and Tina for help, and for stock.

Since nobody has noticed on facebook ( :wink ) we're building new wire cages pretty soon, and selling all our current cages (8 wire holes, 11 plastic bottom). I'm going for 24 x 24 or a bit bigger, and getting the baby save wire and everything special to help keep my bunnies comfortable. I agree that the flooring on one of the 3-holes is way too huge and terrible, I only use 2 holes, and both holes have huge wood slabs for the rabbits to sit on instead of being on the wire. I guess that's one positive about having it on the ground, their feet don't hang down or get hurt, because they just hit solid ground. Given that the cages are cleaned under every other day (poop raked out), and moved to different areas every week, so they have fresh grass under their feet.
As for outside cages for winter, everyone was indoors for the winter, and everyone will be indoors for winter again, inside a heated building


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## ladysown (Jun 3, 2013)

i do not understand that the fuss is all about.

Folks keep their rabbits in different ways and as long as the rabbit is healthy it doesn't matter.
If cage wire spacing is large and the buns are on flat ground so much the better...means they can actually eat the grass that's under their feet. Not like they can hurt themselves since the cage is flat on the ground.

A rabbit dealing with a stuck kit merely needs to get it OUT of her body... doesn't much matter where she gets it out. As long as she does her best that's what matters. And buns make some interesting errors in judgement. Just keep 'em relatively clean and do your best by them. Creating more laws and rules by which everyone MUST keep their rabbits is just asking for trouble down the road and reduces the flexibility people have in how to care for their stock.


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## woahlookitsme (Jun 19, 2013)

I don't understand why this thread keeps on showing up. It was last year


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## wendymac (Jun 19, 2013)

I was just wondering that myself. LOL I actually thought the admins were going to delete it after the debate.


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## Watermelons (Jun 19, 2013)

Lets try and remember to look at time stamps before we post to older topics please.

Topic closed.


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