# Worried for my bunny boy (RIP)



## MagnoliaDee (Aug 3, 2009)

Hi we're new and joined looking for help.

On friday morning I went down to the bunny room to feed the kids. All was well the night before. But friday morning Jacub (5 year old Holland Lop) was acting very strange. He was looking left over his shoulder and his eyes were moving left and right. Then he tried to move and was all jerky and just wrong. I got him an appointment with the vet as quickly as they could take me. He had developed head tilt and was also in GI stasis. The vet kept him that day, giving him critical care and fluids, meds, etc.

That night when I went to pick him up he was just laying on his side... just breathing. I've been trying to care for him since. The first time feeding him was very difficult... more went out than in. But it's improved greatly since then. Anyways, by Saturday he had developed very small pellets (poops). But sunday at noon he actually ate some hay on his own... still no interest in pellets or eating the critical care on his own so still had to force feed.

Since then tho, the pellets have ceased and now it's just a mooshy mess coming out. I haven't seen him eat any hay since sat. at noon... but he will eat parsley and kale. I'm still force feeding him and giving him his antibiotics for his ear infection, oval for gas twice daily, pain meds once daily, and massaging his tummy as much as I can. But I'm worried about his poops being just a mess. :tears2: 

Anyone have any thoughts on that? We did get a culture started for his infection, but we won't get the results until the next couple days. But I don't think the antibiotics are working, as he's had some of the puss in the part of the ear that hangs down. Any thoughts, or words of wisdom?? Any idea how long until he will eat actual food on his own??? :cry2

I should mention that he's not moving much b/c of his balance being off. But when I'm force feeding him and while we're cuddling for tummy massages, he purrs... so I hope he's not in pain.

Thanks,

Sandra

He're a pic of him


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## Flashy (Aug 3, 2009)

Hi Sandra,

What a beautiful boy you have there.

Could you please put your location in your profile, it means we can give you the best advice possible.

Can you please answer these questions for us. http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=44529&forum_id=16 You've done a great job already though.

Could you also maybe explain to us what medication he is on and how often.

It might be worth trying something like using rolled up towels to give him something to lean against and also to help prop him up a bit.

Has he got all food and water within easy reach? Is his water in a bowl?

I'm lacking on the medical side although could suggest some stuff, however, I have a girlie who has/had head tilt and so am better off giving suggestions in terms of ways to make his life easier.

I look forward to your response and seeing if we can offer anything to help you hlep your guy


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## ra7751 (Aug 3, 2009)

Hi Sandra,

Hollands are quite prone to ear infections as they don't get much air flow thru those small ear canals. I am glad a culture is being done. The most likely pathogen is Pasteurella Multocida. If we know we havea bacterial infection and get a clean dish, we treat to this bacteria. You might also see that E Cuniculi causes head tilt. This is not totally accurate. At this time, he probably doesn't feel like eating. My rule is hydration before nutrition. The elevated body temp associated with a vestibular infections will make them feel horrible. I would ask your vet to adminster sub-q fluids (and I suggest you learn how and when to do this) as the fluids will make him feel much better. I can't stressenough the importance of proper hydration. Oral (by mouth) antibiotics will depress the appetitie. Many vets are still stuck on mostly ineffective oral drugs such as Baytril or one of the sulfanomides (like SMZ, TMZ, Bactrim or Septra). Once the culture is back, a more targeted drug can be used. My drugs of choice in treating an infection like this (assuming the most common pathogen) is Zithromax or Penicillin (keeping in mind that Penicillins and derivitives are safe only as injectables). Pain management is essential. Metacam is a good choice (but can be harmful used in a dehydrated animal) and early on a narcotic aspect such as Buprenorphine or a narcotic like aspect such as Tramadol can be very helpful. An injection of B Comp can also make him feel better. And Critical Care, while an excellent product, can cause stasis since it can also be dehydrating. If he is spinning, Meclizine helps some rabbits. Resolving head tilt can sometimes take quite a while....I have treated for up to 8 months. I currently have an adult Eastern Cottontail in rehab with tilt.....and that is a challenge. Let me know if you would like more detailed info.

Randy


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## Flashy (Aug 3, 2009)

Sandra, the genius has spoken (in the form of Randy), hereally knows about this stuff and it was him who helped me get the correct treatment for my girl.

I'm really glad he responded. Thanks Randy


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## tonyshuman (Aug 3, 2009)

Hi Sandra,
It sounds like your boy is quite sick. It sounds to me like he has an inner ear infection leading to loss of balance, and feeling dizzy from that has made him not eat, leading to stasis. Your vet probably already told you that, though.

The important things here I think are the proper antibiotic to treat this, and something to get his gut back in order. Inner ear infections can be hard to treat. In these situations, I'm usually most comfortable about the treatment if it includes an antibiotic that crosses the blood-brain barrier, because the inner ear is connected to the brain pretty directly, and an infection that progresses into the brain from the ear is very dangerous. I think a drug like Zithromax (azithromyacin), chlorpalm (cloramphenicol), or Convenia would be best. I am guessing that you're in the UK since you called the gas medicine Ovol, and I know zithromax and Convenia are available there. Convenia's use in rabbits is off-label (it's not approved for use in rabbits), so few vets will prescribe it. Bicillin, a combination of penicillin G benzathine and penicillin G procaine, is also a good choice, although it's blood-brain-barrier penetration is quite poor, but it can only be given via sub-q injection, so it may not be easy for you to administer. The best thing is for the vet to do a culture of the pus in the ear and determine which antibiotic it is susceptible to. There are so many rabbit bacteria that are immune to several antibiotics, and the use of antibiotics in rabbits can be tricky (gut issues), so getting the right antibiotic to treat the infection is key.

We have a great expert here who is currently on reduced duties because of a heavy work load, and I found this comment on another site from him about head tilt. http://en.allexperts.com/q/Rabbits-703/2008/10/Head-tilt-1.htm

Something like baytril or tetracycline or any of the -cillins given orally will not work. -cillins orally are fatal for rabbits!

For the stomach, I would look into a probiotic. I think the one in the UK is called Bio-Lapis? If he's still having gas, that sounds like an imbalance in the gut bacteria, so they need to get back in balance so you don't have to give gas meds everyday. Gas meds are relatively safe drugs, but it's not normal to be on them for a long time. I guess that his initial antibiotic treatment made his gut get out of whack, plus being off balance made him not want to eat which made that worse. Whenever a rabbit's on antibiotics, we recommend that they're also on a probiotic.

A final thing you might want to think about is antinausea medicine. A member here has a bunny with permanent head tilt (he had this same type of infection but it didn't get treated in time and the tilt became permanent), and he is on Bonine (human anti-seasickness pills, 1/2 tab a day.
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=39451&forum_id=16
11th post down.

Good luck! Please let us know what antibiotic he's on.


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## tonyshuman (Aug 3, 2009)

Woohoo Randy has spoken! I didn't notice that they're doing a culture--until then, keep him hydrated and comfortable, eating if possible.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 3, 2009)

- Location - Ontario, Canada

- Description (Breed, color., weight) - Holland Lop, Brown, 3ish lbs

- Age - about 5, but that's a guess as he was rescued

- spayed/neutered? - yes

- Notes on Fecal and Urinary Output - urinating, but poops have been very mushy lately, stopping up the back end (I'm hesitant to put him in water as he's not good being picked up, and with his balance being off... I'm just afraid he might breath water if he made an unexpected movement. I tried wiping him there with a damp cloth, but that didn't go over well either)

- are the bunny's poops and pees normal? Not the poops, see above

- When did they last use their litterbox? He's not using his literbox right now due to his balance... but he's been going regularly.

- Any unusual behavior? Not really... he isn't hungry due to the head tilt.

- Medical History -- has s/he been to the vet or been sick before? He's had a slight touch of GI problems once before... but we got on it quickly, and got him turned around quickly.

- Diet - what does your bunny eat? Martin, Timmothy pellets, with timmothy hay (but he's on critical care at the moment, as he's not really eating either the pellets or the hay)

- when and what did s/he eat last? Force fed at 1pm

- movement - any unusual movements? Is s/he hopping normally? Jerky with rolling on his side due to the head tilt.

- are there any plants, chocolate or other substances within reach? No

- has the rabbit been outdoors? No

I just feel aweful that he has developed the head tilt. I had no idea he had an ear infection going on. Do most people have one of those things so you can see down into the ear canal on hand?? Getting him interested in food again is a huge challenge due to him being nauseous. He's still trying to clean his face, etc. tho. Once he's snuggled up on my lap for food or for massages he just settles right in, and even purs. But moving him back and forth from wherever he is on the floor to my lap is hard on him and he tries to get away. 

Should I be giving him water by syringe along with the critical care? I haven't been as the vet didn't mention it. I worry that more water might cause further problems with his mushy poo.

As for the meds, etc.

We're getting an aerobic and anaerobic culture done

Sulfa Trim - 1 ml by mouth every 12 hours

Metacam Oral - .1 ml once daily

Critical Care - 8 ml by mouth every 6 hours

Ovol - .5 cc by mouth every 12 hours for 7 days

Massage after feeding <-- Not easy to do

The vet said it's very important to get the critical care in... and she said that they gave him like 40something ml in the half a day he was at the vets office. She said he can have lots... I forget the number per day... but if I feed 8 ml every 6 hours... that's only 32 a day. Yesterday I gave him tonnes... more than 8 every 6 hours... I half wonder if that's why he's now all messy poops? Should I be doing more or less than what the package says??

Randy... I wouldn't say his temp is elevated... if anything it's been low. The vet said she wanted to get his temp up while he was there on friday (incubator I think she said) as she thought he might have been a bit shocky. He's in the basement at our house and I actually had to stopper up the vents because it was really cold in their room and his ears were cold. Now his ears feel good again. 

Also, they gave him sub q fluids on friday. Is this something that should be repeated?


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## aurora369 (Aug 3, 2009)

With mushy poos, water or hydration is even more important because the bun is losing more hydration than normal with each excrement. You can syringe water or even better would be pedialyte (hydration for sick infants found at pharmacies).

You can make the critical care more watery. Also let it soak for a long time before giving it to her, to make sure all the particles have sucked up as much moisture as possible before feeding.

I don't think many people have the instrument to look down the ears. Also, ear infections act very fast, one day they are normal and the next they are tilted. Most people are caught by surprise by it. 

You are doing an excellent job. The best thing you can do is stay calm, and help soothe your bunny. Get him on a proper antibiotic as soon as possible when the culture comes back.

--Dawn


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 3, 2009)

Thanks Dawn... I'll go get some pedialite now... how much how often to give?


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## tonyshuman (Aug 3, 2009)

Rehydrate the critical care in at least 2x as much water as it says to. Water should be eliminated from his bladder, not the GI, unless there are some GI flora problems. I would guess that the beneficial bacteria in his gut aren't up to par. I would give him up to 50mL of pedialye/dioralyte orally a day, that should be fine.

The tilt can show up very quickly, so don't feel bad about it. I check ears monthly when I do nail trims, but a tilt is usually the first sign of an ear infection.

If you can't give him a massage, try taking him for car rides or putting him on top of a washing machine that's running.

I think some probiotic would really help get his gut back in order, and make the poo less mushy. 

Does he have hay available, even if he won't eat it? Could you offer him some canned pumpkin? That may be higher in fiber than Critical Care.

You could do a butt bath, where you hold him under the chest area with one hand and the other under his bum. Rinse just the bum off in the sink. You can use a little baby shampoo. Make sure he gets dry after any bathing, as cold will only tax his immune system more. Most bunnies don't like hair dryers, but towel dry and keep him in a warmish area until he air dries. Only get the butt wet--no more than needs to be washed.

I think some meclizine or bonine would help a bit, since the tilt is really bothering him. That antibiotic isn't going to do a lot of good, but hopefully the culture results get back soon.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 3, 2009)

Clairthanks... the bunny in the back of your profile pic looks just like my other bun (Lego).

How much pedalite should I give at one time? Sorry I really don't mean to be dense, I just need things simple right now... my thinking is clowdy from lack of sleep =)

Also, if they have a flavoured pedalite, can I use that?

He does have hay available... just not interested. He's also getting kale and parsley... which he will eat. I think I'll pick up some cilantro as well as the pumpkin and pedalite.


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## aurora369 (Aug 3, 2009)

Give as much pedialyte as he will comfortably take at one time. 

Yes, you can use the flavoured ones. Often times they will think the flavoured pedialyte is an awesome treat and will take a lot willingly.

--Dawn


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## tonyshuman (Aug 3, 2009)

Yep, as much as he'll take. I wouldn't do more than 50mL though. Flavored pedialyte is fine--just try to find one with low or no sugar. If you can't find that, the normal sugar is ok.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 3, 2009)

O'kay I'm back from the store... got apple flavoured pedialite (or their version of it), and... he doesn't like it. Also got some cilantro, which he doesn't like. He dove into the pumpkin... but only minimally... there's lots left. But I've found him twice now all stretched out... so I'm pretty sure he's pressing his belly into the ground. So he's now riding the dryer, safely in a pet carrier. I did however, find tiny poops again. They are tiny and hard, but I'll take them!

I think I might leave him at the vets tomorrow, and that way if they need to give him fluids they can, and if the culture results come back then they can start him on the new antibiotics, if necessary (but I really think they will be, as the one he's on now doesn't seem to be doing anything that I can dissern).

As for the probiotics... how do I give him probiotics? Do you buy a powder and give him that in his food?


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## tonyshuman (Aug 3, 2009)

You're doing a great job! I'm excited that he has pooped (that sounds strange...), and that he likes the pumpkin. My guys will only eat one ice-cube-sized portion each at a time. 

For probiotics, I use something called Bene-Bac. It comes in a gel or powder form. I prefer the gel because I think it's easier, but I know of some members whose bunnies hate the taste of the gel so she gets the powder. Tony loves the gel and will eat it off the end of the tube. For Muffin, I force feed it to her, just put the end of the tube in her mouth, or put it on a treat like a piece of fruit. The gel is made for dogs or cats and comes either in a big tube or several small ones. Either is fine but I prefer the big tube because the small ones only contain one or two doses (a dose is 0.5-1g). The powder is made for small animals and you just sprinkle it on the food, difficult if he's not eating much. You can get them at PetSmart and the like. They both have the same ingredients.

They also sell a gel made for horses called ProBios, which can be found at farm stores. I don't know if things are different in Ontario, but the Bene-Bac at a pet store may be your best bet. I know the UK version of Bene-Bac is a gel and is called Bio-Lapis.


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## ra7751 (Aug 3, 2009)

Umm...low body temp with a suspected bacterial ear infection. That doesn't add up. Ear infections (bacterial in nature) usually result in the highest body temps I have ever seen....up to 105F....and that is dangerous. Body temp may be a hugepart of this puzzle and I suggest keeping that in mind. I highly suspect your gut problem with the loose fecals is being caused by the Sulfatrim. Sulfa drugs are very old school and have been linked to a digestive problem known as Tyzzer's Disease. I tossed two bottle of Sulfatrim some time ago. Even the wildlife vets I work with stopped using that drug long ago. If you google "Tyzzer's Disease"....there are several articles available that clinically link this condition to Sulfanomides. If I were going to "shotgun" an antibiotic while waiting on the culture....it would have to be either Baytril (and I can't believe I am saying this) or Cipro. Personally, knowing what usually causes ear infections and based on my experiences (non-professional)...I would use Zithromax. Sulfa is a bit rough on the gram positive bacteria that digests the food. I would ask the vet to review the choice of antibiotics and certainly would push the fluids and probiotics. Andat this point, hydration is still more important than nutrition....again, in my non-professional opinion based on my experience. Will be really interested in seeing what the cultureshows.

Randy


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 3, 2009)

Well I took him to the vet tonight to get some sub-q fluids. I thought I'd be leaving him there tomorrow... but I was mistaken about the costs... so I'll have to talk to my boss and see if we can work something out. Taking him to work to me is out... plus it's absolutely freezing there, so it wouldn't be good for him either. Last time I looked in on him he was cuddled up with his wife. She's been helping to keep him clean.

Thanks a bunch for the info on the probiotics... I'll see if we carry it in canadark at pet smart... *fingers crossed*.

While I was on the phone with my vet I mentioned the pedialite... and she isn't a fan... she says she finds it causes diarear most times. I thought I was doing a good thing getting the sub-qs, but apparently they usually do it twice. Unfortunately, everything adds up. I'm hoping that getting the fluids tonight and then trying to keep him hydrated from here on will work. Oh, and she's not sure about the pumpkin either. It's frustrating knowing what to do... they are the best vet in the area.

How much pumpkin can/should I allow him??


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## tonyshuman (Aug 3, 2009)

I wouldn't let him have more than a half cup of pumpkin. It's good fiber, but it does contain a bit of sugar. If he were feeling well enough to eat that much though, he'd probably eat other stuff too!. 

I've heard only good things about pedialyte. Sub-q is better of course, but pedialyte can be very good at keeping a bunny hydrated. Pedialyte also contains a bit of sugar, which can cause gut issues, but I've only heard of it helping. Breeders used to use an oral rehydration solution that was similar to pedialyte (but not quite as good as it is) and have sworn by it for years as well. Pedialyte is really good at keeping the bunny hydrated, even if there is already diarrhea--I don't think it would stop diarrhea or cause it, just deal with the side effect of dehydration.

If you're worried, you can probably just offer water overnight, since he had the sub-Q fluids.

It would be best to keep him with his wife-bun, as the separation anxiety can make things worse. Could you check on them at lunch time, or have someone else stop in and check?

I don't know much about Tyzzer's disease. However, if he was cold when you got him to the vet initially, he hadn't had any antibiotics at that point. The cold could have been from shock. I would agree that you'd expect a fever if anything right now. However, I agree that the sulfa drugs are part of the fecal problem. Getting him on something more specific when the vet has results will help, and for now, probiotics should help at least a bit. Keeping him hydrated will help prevent the main problem associated with diarrhea, which is dehydration.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 3, 2009)

Thanks guys!! We seem to be back to poops now... just really tiny ones. Haven't seen any messes all day. I gave him some pedialite, and after his supper I just gave him some plain water... but he's not much interested in that. I've got him back on the dryer now... not sure how long you normally want to have him on there... I was thinking maybe 10 mins? I'll look for the probiotics tomorrow. And yes... I'll make sure to come home at lunch to feed him.

One other thing... my vet said she doesn't like to give too many veggies at a time like this... what do you guys think? I've been giving him parsley & kale.


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## tonyshuman (Aug 3, 2009)

Yeah, I wouldn't leave him up there for very long--no more than 15-25 min--as it could get kind of scary I assume.

Wet veggies are ok, and can even help with stasis. They don't have as much fiber as hay, but they do have a lot of water. I don't change the amount of veggies I offer when I suspect a GI imbalance, but I do change the type. I go for greens that are more benign and don't cause much GI upset in themselves. For instance, more parsley, romaine, kale, dandelion greens, baby spring green mix, etc, and less cabbage (can cause gas), broccoli (ditto), cucumber (too exotic and they don't like it much). We increase veggie intake at the shelter when we suspect GI stasis from hair ingestion. However, diarrhea and greens don't go so well. Since he had diarrhea, that would indicate time to take greens away. Recently though, he was dealing with slowdown, for which greens help.

I hope there are more poos overnight and you won't have to worry so much!


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 3, 2009)

Thanks again. I took him off the dryer a bit ago, and found him munching on the hay in the crate. Seems the sub q fluids have made him feel a tad bit better.

In all honesty I have been neglectful of giving the kids their greens lately... so maybe I shouldn't give him too many now.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 4, 2009)

Boy he gave me a strugle tonight. Just did not want his critical care... and was struggling with me like crazy. I amgrateful that he has this kind of energy, but common. I did manage to get him to eat about 4-5 cc... but I'm supposed to get 8 into him. He is drinking water from a bowl tonight... prayers that that continues into the future. Oh, and even tho he didn't want any more critical care, he still wanted a bit of pumpkin... rawr!

I'm assuming that I'm supposed to be feeding around the clock every 6 hours... right?

His ear is really bothering him a tonne... he's shaking his head a lot. I sure hope those cultures come back soon, so we can get him on a med that will start working to fix it.


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## Pipp (Aug 4, 2009)

If he's eating and drinking a little on his own, and really doesn't want the CC, I wouldn't worry about giving him the full amount. 

I'd monitor how much he's eating on his own and not worry too much about the 'round the clock' feedings unless you're seeing the poops get smaller or stop again. 


sas :bunnydance:


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## Flashy (Aug 4, 2009)

I just wanted to drop in and say you're doing a great job. He's a very lucky bunny to have someone fight for him like this.

x


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 4, 2009)

Thanks... I'll do everything I can for him. He's such a sweet little guy. 

I thought of another question... the critical care package and my vet also says to massage after feeding. Jacub sometimes prefers it if I massage while I'm feeding. Is there any problem with this?


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 4, 2009)

Well I called Pet-Smart this morning and they don't sell the Bene-Bac here where I am in Canada. So I called another pet store which carries premium foods, and they have a powder probiotic, but it's not Bene-Bac. Hopefully that will be just as good.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 4, 2009)

So I was able to get my hands on this. It's Eagle Pack Holistic Solution for cats & dogs... powder form. It has lactobacillus Acidolphilus, Digestive Enzymes & Inulin - A fiber. Will this be o'kay? And how much do I give?

Here's the info on the label

Lactic Acid Bacteria - 110 million CFU/g
Bacillus Microorganisims - 1.1 million CFU/g
Protease, Cellulose and Amylase - 50 million CFU per 1/4 tsp
Protease (from Aspergillus oryzoe & Aspergillus Niger)
Cellulose (from Aspergillus oryzoe & Aspergillus Niger)
Amylase (from Aspergillus niger & Aspergillus Oryzoe)
Not recognized as an essential nutrient by the AAFCO.


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## tonyshuman (Aug 4, 2009)

That probiotic sounds good, I think. It's not the same ingredients as Bene-Bac, but it has the lactobacillis, which is an important part--it helps get the gut pH back into the acidic range, which is important for the resident bacteria to live well. We've had members in southeast Asia use human probiotics (I forget right now what they contained)--they were gel caps that they cut open and sprinkled on the food. The stuff you found sounds better than that, but I wanted to mention that it worked fine as well, so I think your stuff will work better. The only thing that's not ok as a probiotic (although some breeders will disagree, as it's a common "folk" remedy) is yogurt. The lactose in yogurt can't be digested by rabbits.

I agree with Pipp about the critical care--if he won't take it, but he'll eat the pumpkin, don't worry about giving him the whole amount. It seems strange that you'd have to get up in the middle of the night to give him his food (every 6 hrs, even all night?), but it's up to you. As long as things are moving through, he'll be ok. Right now it's just a waiting game until you get the culture results back anyway, so hopefully you'll only have to put up with this difficult stuff for a few more days. You're doing great!


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 4, 2009)

Clair I had read that not to give milk based probiotics... so I was at a loss as to what was available for the buns lol... since I give the dogs yogurt or cottage cheese daily for their gut health. But I sure am glad that I picked them up, b/c tonight's meal I sprinkled some on and holy cow... what normally took 1-1.5 hours to get his food in only took about 15-20 mins. He was litterally lapping it up, and I didn't add a tonne either, just a sprinkle. I sure hope it helps his tummy too!

I have a couple questions remaining...

1) I have been giving him tummy massages "while" I feed him, inbetween bites. Is this o'kay? It really relaxes him and keeps him happy. I ask b/c per the vet and the critical care directions it says to massage "after" feeding.

2) How much massaging does he need? Like how long? Like I said I've been doing it while I feed him... every time I feed him, is that enough?

I'm not sure what the heck is taking soo long with the culture... it was started last friday! I sure hope I hear something tomorrow... I'm worried about the infection being soo close to his brain. When she calls about which antibiotic to administer I'll mention then that I want to not give the sulfa anymore if she mentions it in conjunction with the new med. Other than that he is drinking some water on his own, and I'm giving him a syringe or two during feeding as well... with the occassional pedialite syringe also. Haven't seen much hay action tonight... but I'll give him a fresh batch after I vaccuum their room and see if he goes for it.

Thanks so much to everyone for talking me thru this difficult time! I very much appreciate your routing for Jacub!


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 4, 2009)

oh yeah... I knew there was another coupleq's I had.

3) If he lays with his legs all out behind him, like a bunny flop 'cept he can't fully flop right now with his balance off... does this mean he's comfortable? Or can it still mean he's in pain and pressing his belly into the ground. I *think* a pain in the belly would have him sitting like a chicken... like a tight ball, with his belly pressed against the floor... not all sprawled out... right?

4) For those of you who have had to force feed... have you ever had a bunny purr while feeding? Jacub's been doing this, and I again I think it means he's contented... getting his belly rubbed, etc. But could it also indicate pain?

Thanks again for your opinions!!


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## tonyshuman (Aug 5, 2009)

I'm sure massaging during feeding is fine. After, I'd say just a few minutes, maybe 5-10? The flop like that sounds like he's pretty comfy, and I agree that he'd be sitting like a chicken or with his front legs out and back legs under, belly pressed to the floor. It sounds like he's doing a froggy leg flop, which is pretty common. My guys do that with the legs behind him, but together and to the side instead of straight back. I haven't force fed before, but it could be from the massage. A tooth grind due to pain is quite different from a tooth purr, so you'd know the difference. Sounds like you're being a great nurse to Jacub!


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 5, 2009)

Thanks Clair... I really thought he looked, and seemed, content, but I didn't want to overlook anything.

So this morning he didn't want any critical care... just would not have it for nothing! That's got me a bit worried. :nerves1But he did eat a few of his rabbit pellets for the first time in days. Maybe 10? And he had some pumpkin also. I found lots of poops around him, and he's drinking water from his bowl (I also got a syringe of water into him). Also, last night after feeding him he was eating some hay. So I'm hopefull that he was just full from hay. Unfortunately I can't be with him now until after lunch again... hopefully he'll be hungry by then.

When do you stop force feeding... when they show interest in their pellets again, or only once they eat a full meal of pellets??

He didn't want any massages this morning either... but he got a really good one last night... again, fingers crossed that he will be o'kay to lunch, and that he allows (trust me I try my best to force it, but he is strong willed at time) me to feed and massage him then.

I took a couple pics and vids last night...

Showing his tilt






Showing him all stretched out after his meal and massage





Vid of him cleaning and drinking and generally nosing around his space
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaOMIyQeINM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaOMIyQeINM[/ame]

Jacub and wife bun Lego, doting on him
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvPFOacUj3o&NR=1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvPFOacUj3o&NR=1[/ame]


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## tonyshuman (Aug 5, 2009)

He looks pretty good, considering. No rolling or spinning, so that's good. What is that bald spot by his top ear? Was pus draining there? 

He and Lego are so cute. Lego does look just like my Tony!

As for when to stop force-feeding, if they're eating at least enough on their own to keep poop going, I'd say stop. You can put it in a dish and see if he'll eat it out of a dish, as well as offering the pellets etc. It does sound like he's gradually accepting new food, so that's definitely the right direction to be headed! It can take quite a while to recover completely from a total stasis event. The hay eating is WONDERFUL! So glad to hear that. Fingers crossed that you get the culture results soon. He's doing so much better!


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 5, 2009)

Clair... thanks soo much for coming back to this thread!! I'm not sure what the bald spot is on his one ear is from... it seems to be covering in hair the past few days. I didn't notice it before this event as his ear is usually flopping down... but with his tilt, now it's exposed. But it's not from pus, b/c it's the other ear that has the infection. She said the top ear is clean.

As soon as I came here and saw your profile pic I thought the same thing... they could be twins!

Thanks for your thoughts on when to stop the forced feeding. Today at lunch I put the food in the syringe, and he basically lapped it off the end of the syringe, like as if it was a water bottle. With the probiotics in there, he seems to like it a lot better... so long as he's not full. I'm hoping that he continues to accept more and more pellets. And I'm thrilled that he's eating at least some hay... saw him munching on some again about an hour ago! I didn't realize that recovery from stasis can take some time... I was getting worried that it's taking too long... so you've eased some worry for me there. Thanks!! And thanks for the fingers crossed... I am cleaning the house, doing anything I can, so help pass the time. I sure hope it's back by tomorrow!!!


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## tonyshuman (Aug 5, 2009)

Yeah, i was confused about the bald spot, because the infection usually is in the down ear, so pus leaking onto the top ear would be weird. It may have been a strange molt or something.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 5, 2009)

I'm on the phone right now with the vet. The results are in and she wants to put him on Baytril. Both the antibiotic and an ear solution. But she wants to clean the ear before doing the solution. Does all this sound good?


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 5, 2009)

I just reread above, esp. what Randy wrote, and I'm pretty discouraged now. Baytril is ineffective? This is what she wants to put him on. She said he has pasturella and one other thing, and that it's suseptable to Baytril (or however that should be said). He took most of his food at lunch very well... but tonight's meal is a no go. I can feel his spine and rib bones now. I'm just not doing good enough... I'm pretty sure I'm failing him. I'm really worried.


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## tonyshuman (Aug 5, 2009)

Ummm... Not really. Baytril is a broad-spectrum antibiotic, and it's really not strong enough to take care of an ear infection, especially if given orally. That's strange, Baytril is usually given only when the vet can't figure out what the bacteria are. I also am not sure about cleaning ears when they're infected. I hope someone more experienced comes on. I only know that the drugs most commonly used to treat ear infections are injectible penicillin G procaine/benzathine, chloramphenicol, azithromyacin, and convenia. Baytril isn't as strong as these drugs, especially when given orally.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 5, 2009)

I'm soo lost. I just don't know what to do. I'm already taking him to the best vet available. I feel like I'm just killing him slowly.


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## aurora369 (Aug 5, 2009)

I would print off some articles about how to effectively treat an ear infection with penicillin injections. Bring the article to the vet and request to try that treatment protocol. Request to be taught how to administer sub-q injections at home (not too hard once your taught how) and to be provided with enough drugs to do a full treatment. 

Do you feel that your vet is open to different options? Some vets react well to ideas from owners who have done research, and others not so much. Hopefully yours will be open to suggestions.

--Dawn


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## tonyshuman (Aug 5, 2009)

You are doing a really great job for Jacub. You've been feeding him and getting him all these things he needs, which has been a lot of work.

If the vet says the bacteria are susceptible to Baytril, it may just work. It's just not as aggressive an antibiotic as we like to see used for ear infections. I really would like to hear Randy's opinion on this, since the vet did the right thing and did the culture and sensitivity test, but has come up with an antibiotic that we don't like very much around here. The reason we don't like it is because most vets won't do a culture and sensitivity, they'll just prescribe Baytril and hope that works, which it doesn't, usually. Also, as a scientist, if they cultured the bacteria and were able to kill it with Baytril, it would make sense that Baytril would work for Jacub too. 

Where did you learn about the vet? Is he/she in our vet listings, or those of the HRS?

Could you ask to give it sub-Q instead of oral? That increases the concentration that gets to the infection, and gets it there more quickly than oral adminstration.

I really want to stress that you've gone through a lot in taking care of him, and you've worked your butt off to get him back eating. There will be up and down days, and it's possible that the Baytril may work. Just because we've seen Pasturella that's resistant to it in the past doesn't mean Jacub has that resistant bacteria. You're really doing a good job for him.

edit: and what Dawn said is good too. It's possible he doesn't know that penicillin can be used in rabbits, since it absolutely can't be used orally in rabbits. Sub-q is good though.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 5, 2009)

*aurora369 wrote: *


> I would print off some articles about how to effectively treat an ear infection with penicillin injections. Bring the article to the vet and request to try that treatment protocol. Request to be taught how to administer sub-q injections at home (not too hard once your taught how) and to be provided with enough drugs to do a full treatment.
> 
> Do you feel that your vet is open to different options? Some vets react well to ideas from owners who have done research, and others not so much. Hopefully yours will be open to suggestions.
> 
> --Dawn





> I can definitely print off some articles. I don't get the feeling that she's open to other ideas, as she's shot down every one I've told her about thus far. Do you know of any good articles that you can point me to? I've been trying to look for stuff on the internet about what we're going thru, but having a hard time.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 5, 2009)

*tonyshuman wrote: *


> I'm going to speak with her about injectibles... and she what she says. I hope also that Randy posts his thoughts on the latest as well... I tried sending him a PM but he has that disabled. By Sub-Q do you mean injectibles?





> The vet we go to is just "known" as the best in town. I don't believe there are any really rabbit saavy vets in town tho... I took my girl buns to London for their spay as I wan't comfortable getting it done locally. London would be the next closest possibility to look for a rabbit saavy vet, but that is 2+ hours away. Other than that would be Michigan.





> You are doing a really great job for Jacub. You've been feeding him and getting him all these things he needs, which has been a lot of work.
> 
> If the vet says the bacteria are susceptible to Baytril, it may just work. It's just not as aggressive an antibiotic as we like to see used for ear infections. I really would like to hear Randy's opinion on this, since the vet did the right thing and did the culture and sensitivity test, but has come up with an antibiotic that we don't like very much around here. The reason we don't like it is because most vets won't do a culture and sensitivity, they'll just prescribe Baytril and hope that works, which it doesn't, usually. Also, as a scientist, if they cultured the bacteria and were able to kill it with Baytril, it would make sense that Baytril would work for Jacub too.
> 
> ...


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## tonyshuman (Aug 6, 2009)

Here are our rabbit-savvy vet listings in Ontario.
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=12548&forum_id=9

If your vet is open-minded, bringing in articles may help.

Here are a few good ones, from some rabbit experts:
http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/tilt.html
http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-8/head-tilt.html
http://www.rabbitnetwork.org/articles/jilly.shtml
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=485&S=5&SourceID=43

To be totally honest, re-reading these articles, enrofloxacin (Baytril) comes up pretty frequently as an acceptable treatment. It may just work. Don't give up hope: mention that you're worried that Baytril isn't as strong an antibiotic as is typically used in cases of head tilt, but if he won't go for another stronger antibiotic, just give the Baytril and look for improvement. If he doesn't improve some in a week, it may be time to change meds.

[[big hugs]]


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 6, 2009)

Thanks Claire for all the help! I just created a pen for Jacub so I can monitor how many poops he's having. And see how much hay he is eating. I was having a very tough time with his feeding, and a dear friend of mine reminded me of the bunny burrito. Tried that and tho he was pretty pissed off by the end I did manage to get the full 8 cc's into him! Feeling much better thanks to that!


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## Flashy (Aug 6, 2009)

You are definitely doing a great job for him, for sure, so please don't ever feel you're doing anything wrong. You are fighting tooth and nail alongside him.

Head tilt can be a difficult one to treat, for a variety of reasons (like of knowledge of anti-bios, lack of knowledge of correct treatment paths, etc). Maybe you could agree with your vet to try Baytril for X amount of time and if that doesn't work, to switch to something else stronger (and that would be an injectable).

You're doing great. Keep us updated


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 6, 2009)

Thanks Tracy... I appreciate it! It pretty easy to get disheartened when seeing him stuggling so. But I'm happy that he took some pellet this morning, and veggies... even if he wouldn't accept the critical care for anything. I put him in a pen of his own last night so that I could monitor his poops... he made 70+ overnight... that's got to be a good sign!

I'm wondering how to know when to stop the critical care... he's eating some pellet, some hay, veggies, pumpkin, water, etc. on his own... and he's really fighting me on the critical care. I was able to get two meals into him yesterday. Any thoughts?

Here is Jacub as of last night in his new pen...


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 6, 2009)

o'kay I just re-read what Clair wrote above about when to stop forced feedings... sounds like we can consider stopping. I will still try to see if he'll take it... he may take 1 or 2 a day... we'll have to see. But he is pooping... and good I think... so I think we're thru the worst of it... I hope and pray! 

I was soo worried when he wouldn't take the food that he'd starve to death... or go backwards on the stasis. Putting him in a pen of his own has really helped me to understand how he's coming along. I was able to know exactly how many poops he had overnight... I counted every one lol. And I was able to know how much water he took also. 

Do I need to continue with the tummy massages? He's not cool with them anymore either.

Thanks again!


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## Flashy (Aug 6, 2009)

I do agree. If that were my bun, if they were eating something by themself, then I would stop the force feeding. Maybe just try offering the critical care as well as a lovely bunny buffet all the time, and keeping it all as fresh as possible.

If he is eating and pooing and drinking and weeing and generally imprving then I would say you can leave the tummy massages unless he goes backwards. You could give him a heat source to lie on which can help the tummy if it feels rough for him.

He's an asbolute cutie and he's so lucky to have such a wonderful bunny mummy


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 6, 2009)

I'm back from the vet now, and it was a completely different experience than I was expecting. Praying really does help. 

Firstly, I got an appointment with my vet, and I wasn't charged for spending time with her. Second, as soon as we were in the room, and she was looking at Jacub, she said that after talking with me on the phone she did some more research and decided that she'd like to try a different approach with Jacub... a more agressive one... Pen G. We're going to do the oral Baytril as well... which I pick up tomorrow. She's giving him more Metacam for pain management. And she decided that she didn't want to do the ear cleaning with him... just a light one with a q-tip. But it was seeming to stress him out a bit so she decided not to proceed. I asked about getting something for neasea... like Baytril, and she had no problem with that. I also mentioned being shown how to give Sub Q fluids. And again, she was all go for that as well... brought the stuff in, showed me how to do it, took her time and allowed me to try inserting the needle and feeling how hard to push the syringe, etc. I was shaking pretty badly, so she switched it to a butterfly needle... which is good, I don't want to be shaking a needle into him while I'm doing it. I'll get hubby to help me do his first one tonight. He gets 50 ml every day for 5 days. Oh, and he got more metacam for pain management too... another 10 days.

Beyond that I asked her if she's had many vestibular cases, and she said she did in Toronto, and 2 in Windsor. I asked her if Jacub was one of the pretty bad cases, and she said his was one of the worst she's personally treated. I asked about prognosis, and what if he doesn't get better, and we talked about euthanization (of course, we're doing our very best first). I hope that doesn't sound harsh, but I've never had to do it, and want to prepare myself for the possibility. 

I also asked for a copy of the culture, again no problem. He has Heavy growth of Pastuerella Species and Moderate growth of Staphyloccoccus hominis subsp. hominis. According to the report they are both suseptable (or however you say it) to Pen G.

All in all it was a very good visit I think. I think we're doing the right treatment... and I hope that Jacub does well with it all.

Once I got home, I put Jacub in his pen to give him a respite from all the stress of the visit (multiple pokes, and rolling pretty badly, not to mention the car ride itself)... went back down a bit later to check on him and he was munching on hay. He's such a VERY good boy. 

Please keep your fingers crossed that I do o'kay with all of this... it's pretty scary, and as always, keep sweet Jacub in your prayers, and hope that we see a positive result from all of this!!


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## Flashy (Aug 6, 2009)

Oh that DOES sound more positive. So what is he on/going to be on?

Rabbits can live quite happily with head tilt, once the initial infection is treated and better. Some are left with a residual tilt of varying degrees and they can still be happy, still have a friend, still have a good quality of life. It really depends on the rabbit. My girl has been left with a residual tilt that has improved greatly. 

You can also do things like physio with him, and massages when you know that his infection is starting to go, which can help his neck and head and the strength of the muscles too.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 6, 2009)

Tracy... I didn't know you've dealt with tilt as well. I'm sorry for that... but very encouraged to hear that she is doing well after treatment. I actually have seen a few bunnies with head tilt... we have a good group of bunny friends from another forum and I got to meet a few folks who were/are involved in rescue, and they all had at least one tilt bunny. Tho it looks sad, I do know that as long as we get this under control then we have a shot at a happy life. My vet did mention the massage and the possibility of acupuncture... which we will look into once we're in the healing process. I soo want the best for him. If all of you met him, you'd really love him and I'm not just saying that b/c I'm his mom. =)


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## tonyshuman (Aug 6, 2009)

This really sounds a lot better!! I'm excited about the Pen G, and that you can now give fluids! Now, onward to treatment!


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 6, 2009)

I agreee... I just went down and little sweetheart was just laying there looking disheartened... so I ran a few pieces of hay past his nose, and he took them and ate them! I have already given him his first Pen G shot... and later tonight he'll get the rest of his Sub Q fluids.

Now onwards to healing!!


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## pumpkinandwhiskersmom (Aug 6, 2009)

Just saw this post....so sorry that you've been through it with your little guy. He is ADORABLE, and you've done a terrific job nursing him back to health. I totally agree that prayers are amazing...add ours to all the others that are being lifted up for your and Jacub. Also, welcome to the Forum....it is one of the most wonderful places in cyberearth!


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 6, 2009)

Thank you a bunch for the prayers and welcome!


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 6, 2009)

The fruits of my labour... :yes:


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## tonyshuman (Aug 6, 2009)

Hehe! So glad to see that!


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 7, 2009)

Thanks Clair lol!! 

We gave Jacub his Sub Q fluids tonight and I was very happy with how that went esp. given how much it sucked at the vets, and how nervous I was! The butterfly needle was MUCH nicer... and I don't think he even felt it going in. He squirmed a bit as I did the injection... but mainly he was just sooo good about it. Tonight he's flopping less I think, and having better control. I hope we see some improvement on his tilt before too long.

He gets the Penn G every 48 hours for a week, then twice a week for two weeks, then once a week for two weeks... this will cover about a 5 week span. ::: fingers crossed :::


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## ani-lover (Aug 7, 2009)

ok, i have personally dealt with this for about two years with one of my rabbits, seems like your vet is pretty good and cares about what they're doing. i don't have time to read all of the posts in this thread right now but i will. i haven't had the GI stasis problem but i had the vestibular disease problem with mine and can also help. my rabbit was in the rolling stage and had the head tilt. for right now i just have a few questions, have you gotten a blood test at all and are you still using baytril?


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 7, 2009)

Hi ani-lover... We just started the Baytril and Pen G last night. I didn't get blood work done. The vet wanted to do blood work as well as xrays. However, I was only able to do a culture. 

I'm very sorry that you went thru this as well... how is your bunny doing now?


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## pumpkinandwhiskersmom (Aug 7, 2009)

Isn't it amazing how exciting a pile of poops can be??


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 7, 2009)

lol... a site for sore eyes that's for sure!!


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 7, 2009)

I just went down to check on Jacub. He was just laying there with his head on the ground.  I really wish he wasn't going thru this.

I decided to continue with his forced feedings... as it's been a bit rough for him trying to get around and just generally with going to the vet. He ate his breakfast voraciously. And lunch, tho it started slow... really picked up with he decided he wanted it... now! lol. 

Last night when I did the fluids I was shocked with how well the needle went in... I'm not sure he even noticed. He got a bit squirmy near the end... but he was a very good patient overall. And I was happy and re-assured by how I was able to do it!

Today I purchased a digital thermometer, and an otoscope. I really wish I had done this long ago and would have know about his ear infection before it got this bad... but I didn't even consider the ears. I purchased the Dr. Mom version... it gets lots of good reviews. I also found a stethascope (sp?) for $20.00... but I'm not sure I'd know how to use it properly... or if it would do me any good. So I'll think about that one.

I also read a very encouraging article today...

http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/tilt.html

So that's our latest news.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 7, 2009)

Went downstairs to give him his supper, and he was just laying on his side :tears2:


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## tonyshuman (Aug 7, 2009)

It sounds like he's tired. Will he move if you try to rouse him? If he's eating and seems "all there", he may just be tired from all the handling, and feeling sick. Make sure he's alert. Is he able to spend some time with his wife-bun? That could make him depressed as well. They should at least be able to see each other. It's also possible he's just relaxed because he's finally starting to feel better.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 7, 2009)

To be honest I think it's got everything to do with his balance... he just falls over. He's been able to keep himself up most of the evening (and yup he's been with his wife-bun all evening). She's been trying to clean out that affected ear, and it was making him shake his head, then over he'd go again. I think she's finally leaving it alone now. He's not had much of an appetite today... I've been giving him the Critical Care. Got his meds into him too. Still pooping... and even started seeing cecos as of yesterday. I don't really think he's feeling better yet. Not sure how long until I should see some improvement. Poor guy.


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## tonyshuman (Aug 7, 2009)

I see. Did the vet prescribe any anti-nausea medicine? It sounds like he's feeling better, but maybe a bit upset. I'm glad he's got his girl there, although she may have been trying too hard to be a good wife! I would expect to see some improvement in terms of how gross the ear looks in a week, and perhaps some improvement in his balance in 2 weeks. It could take a month or more for him to totally recover. Not all bunnies un-tilt themselves, but we can always be hopeful!


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 7, 2009)

Yes he's on Reglan for the nausea. I was thinking I might see some improvement in his balance today as he got the first Pen G last night. He gets them as follows... every 48 hours for the first week. Then twice a week for two weeks, then once a week for two weeks. Glad to know it will take a bit more time for us to see improvement. I did know that the whole thing can take months to treat... I was just assuming I'd see slight improvement already. I'll sit tight, and try my best not to worry... which is hard for a worry wart like me. Tonight I only got 40 ml of fluids into his back... was hoping for the full 50, but he was able to get his one back foot out of the towel and start to struggle... so we stopped. Three more nights of fluids to go.


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## Flashy (Aug 8, 2009)

I used a different medication for Tilly's head tilt but saw mild improvement two days after the injection (her was weekly enjections because a different anti-biotic). I saw a small sparkle in her eye and she moved slightly faster. Nothing major, nothing like a miracle, but enough to know it was the right anti-biotic and was doing her good. She had no visible infection though, so this will probably be a bit different both due to meds and the way his problem has presented.

Could you maybe prop him up with rolled towels to help him keep upright?

Just sit tight and be patient and keep fighting with him. You're both doing an ace job.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 8, 2009)

Thanks Tracy! It's helpful to hear about other buns who have gone thru tilt, as reference.

At night I put him in his pen, and I've put rolled up towels all along the edge so that he can lean up against them. Then in the middle I put all the good stuff... hay, veggies, and water. 

I went downstairs last night about 1:30 (can't sleep very well obviously) and he was on his side. But he wasn't struggling... so I petted him and rubbed his belly for him. Went down at 6 am and he was upright again. He seems to be doing upright pretty good this morning too. Just about to give him his meds and any Critical Care he wants too. But starting last night I have seen him eating a fair bit of hay... so that's encouraging. 

He's definitely not ready to give up and neither am I! We'll fight this with all we got.

Thanks again for keeping in touch, it helps to be able to post and hear from others.


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## Flashy (Aug 8, 2009)

That's a nicely positive post 

I saw your awesome set up in the pictur earlier in the thread, I just wondered whether in the time he is really struggling whether having that greater level of support might help, that's all. All sounds like he is doing well today though  

Each moment as it comes and celebrate the positives


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## Flashy (Aug 8, 2009)

Oh, also meant to add to that post up there, but forgot, that Tilly was on her antibiotics for 2 months solidly, so a weekly injection for 2 months. That beat her infection and 7 months on she still has a residual tilt but has all the functions of a normal bun and has not yet had any relapses.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 8, 2009)

Thanks Tracy... I'm glad to hear that she is back to being a happy silly bun again! That's what I want for him. If the tilt is there, it's there... but I want him to be happy, able to move around without tipping over, run & *hopefully* binky again.

Can you take vids? I'd love to see one of Tilly now if you can. =) I'll start a thread calling all other people with Tilt bunnies to share their experience.


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## Flashy (Aug 8, 2009)

I've got some vids 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-PIhkQLUmE[/ame]

That's the most recent one, and she is not the lop, she is the second bun you'll see, the sable marten marked bun.

On my account there are lots of others with her in.

I can get more footage today if you like and try to show you the things she can do.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 8, 2009)

That would be fantastic... If you wouldn't mind =)


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 8, 2009)

That vid was fantasic... and she looks great!!! She definitely can get around very well! A couple of my friends have martin sisters, who both have deformed back legs... and they are just THE sweetest girls, and they still binky, etc. and live very happy lives! Martins are just soooo gorgeous!! Thanks for sharing... I subscribed to your channel!


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 8, 2009)

Just snapped this photo. Jacub has just gotten his meds and about 3 ml of Critical Care, some Kale and Parsley... and a few twigs of hay. Beggy is being as loving and doting as ever, keeping his fur clean of debris, and washing his eyes and ears for him! :hearts:


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## Flashy (Aug 8, 2009)

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaw! What a GORGEOUS picture!

I'll do my best later to get some Tilly footage, I'm not making any promises because she's sometimes not the most co-operative bunny in the world, but maybe some pear will persuade her  I'll update it onto my post in your thread if I do get anything.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 8, 2009)

So as it is now... if I put my hands on (or try to pet ) Jake's "affected" ear side he leans heavily against my hand and topples right over. I assume that the balance parts in his ear are telling him that he's leaning too far to the "un-affected" side... which is why his head and body leans heartily towards the affected side.

Right now he's on the following meds...
- Reglan 0.6 ml by mouth every 12 hours
- Pen G. .26 ml every 48 hours for one week, then twice a week for two weeks, then once a week for two weeks. (I do evenings)
- Sub Q Fluids - 50 ml to be administered for 5 days consecutively (evenings a few hours apart from the Pen G)
- Baytril - 0.5 ml by mouth every 12 hours
- Metacam - 0.1 ml by mouth once per day (I do mornings)

I'm not sure why she wanted him on Baytril as well... I'm a little worried that it will suppress his appetite, which won't help the prior stasis... I'd love to see him really eating again. The past two days he's not been intereted in his pellets at all. Which from what I've heard is fine, as with after a stasis you want to get them eating hay and veggies and then slowly re-introduce the pellets.

I'm also wondering if he should be put on an anti-inflamatory drug?? I'm sure the Pen G med will help with the inflamation, but soon enough?


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## aurora369 (Aug 8, 2009)

Metacam is also acts as an anti-inflamitory. It's an NSAID (did I get that right?) like IB-Profin for people.

--Dawn


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## tonyshuman (Aug 8, 2009)

If he's on a probiotic, the Baytril shouldn't mess with his intestines too much. And aurora is right, metacam is an NSAID that will reduce inflammation. He and his girl are so sweet. I just love bunny cuddles--it's the thing that makes me so happy my guys have a partner, even though I'm no longer "Tony's girlfriend". You have a demanding medicine schedule there, but you're learning a lot about how to take care of your guys, which is great! I wish I knew how to do sub-q fluids, just in case.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 8, 2009)

Claire... next time you're at the vet with your guys get your vet to show you. It's actually not that hard... just difficult (mostly for you) to poke the needle into your loved bun.

So just did the Pen G. Just have fluids to do in a few hours. He is not interested in any foods today... tho he is allowing the critical care. But he can't even take a step without just flipping on his side. =(

Gosh I hope the infections back off his balance parts soon...

Does anyone know how I can reach Randy? I've been hoping he'd reply here again to the latest drugs. I'dlikehis opinion onif Pen G every 48 hours for one week, then backing off to twice a week will be enough... or if it should be every 48 hours for a couple/few weeks, then back off. So far, if anything, I think it's gotten worse... not better. =(


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## tonyshuman (Aug 8, 2009)

The protocol that Marcy Moore wrote about is every other day for 8 weeks, then if needed every 3 days for 4 more weeks. I don't know how to get in touch with Randy right now, as he has PM's disabled, but he has been dropping in once in a while.
http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~jwmoore/bicillin/bicillin.htm

Good healing vibes~~


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 9, 2009)

I looked at that article, and it says it's for abscess... wonder if that would be the same as for ear infection?


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 9, 2009)

I just can't understand why things are getting worse if he's on the right meds now. He can barely stand... and as I was feeding him just now I noticed his eyes are twitching forward and back. :cry2


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## billinjax (Aug 9, 2009)

Hi Dee,

I'm relatively new here and don't have any experience with your particular situation. I just wanted to let you know we have Jacub in our prayers and hope for a speedy recovery.

Bill


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## Flashy (Aug 9, 2009)

He will have good days and bad days unfortunately, although obviously there may be a reason but I donb't have enough medical knowledge to talk about that.

The nystagmus is horrible to see. Did anything trigger it? Tilly's was always worse after I lifted her and put her back down.

Colder weather can also make it worse, as can stress. The stress may be relevant because of the injections he is having to have.

Maybe try giving him a heat pad to rest his neck on if you feel he has the ability to get away from it.

On a side note I did post a video of Tilly yesterday, in your thread- not sure if you saw it or not.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 9, 2009)

Jacub at this point is almost always on his side. I just took a vid of him on a rare "up" moment... will post when it's done uploading. His eyes continue to move forward and back (like when I first found him). Even tho he's had two injections of Pen G and Baytril (Sub Q initial, then orally since) I've only seen him go downhill. He absolutely refused the Critical Care just now. Wouldn't take any water/pedialyte either. The metacam doesn't seem to be cutting it. I'm going to call the vet tomorrow... but I'm losing hope.


Tracy, thanks for taking the video... she looks great!


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 9, 2009)

Video #1
Jacub Standing
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM3ldhQ7cCc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM3ldhQ7cCc[/ame]


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 9, 2009)

Video #2
Jacub Laying
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1mGX_y4_D8[/ame]

He did get up after maybe 15 mins and chew on some hay. How he's up and basically it's like vid #1.

I'm not sure how I'm supposed to get his fluids in tonight if he's laying on his side. Or how to get the Critical Care into him when he absolutely refuses.


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## Flashy (Aug 9, 2009)

That's a sweet video.

You can see the scanning affecting him even as he stands up. He seemed most with it though when you touched him, and that's probably because it helped ground him and know which way is up. I'm inclined to suggest again keeping him in a small space when he is lying, and use rolled towels on either side to prop him the right way up. He is super disorientated at the moment and that's what is causing is problems.

I wonder if its worth trying something like Meclizine, which in some rabbits can help with that dizziness.

Try not to expect huge results too soon, just take each day as it comes and assess what is best for him at any one time.

I do feel for you.

Thinking of you all.

x


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## Flashy (Aug 9, 2009)

Ijust saw the second video. That's sad. His world is probably spinning so much when he is like that, but he isn't distressed by it, which is the important thing.

Does he have his girlfriend with him all the time?


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## tonyshuman (Aug 9, 2009)

I agree that meclizine or OTC anti-nausea/seasickness pills may help. Reglan makes the gut less icky, but it's probably not going to do a lot for feeling dizzy. I think I posted what Ali does for Ringo earlier--I'll hunt it down again.


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## tonyshuman (Aug 9, 2009)

*http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=39451&forum_id=16

JadeIcing wrote: *


> He still jumps up an runs around but if tries to stand up or stand and lean against something he falls over and rolls.
> 
> So the vet is putting him on Bonine 1/2 tablet, and Metcam if he seems to be in pain. The pill can take up to six hours to work so for the first few days we will give him the metcam.


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## tonyshuman (Aug 9, 2009)

Bonine is the brand name for meclizine. As for the question about how long to treat and how often, I would hope Randy could chime in. I know it usually takes at least a month of antibiotics, and you're right that that article is for abscesses, not ear infections. The protocol your vet came up with is what I'd stick to, unless it doesn't work, or someone comes on who's used Pen G for ear infections before and has a different opinion.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 9, 2009)

Tracy...

Do you mean like this?











I'm trying it out now... but his head is telling him that down is up, so I'm afraid that he might just end up right on his back. I really wish his head wasn't fighting him like this.

He isn't with his wife all the time... and not much today at all, as he just can barely function at all. I've got him in a pen on linoleum, so that I can put down towels and change them out once soiled.

For supper tonight I tried yet again to get some Critical Care into him. Managed to get a full dose by putting my thumb against the back of his head, so he couldn't back away from the syringe. I hope this method continues to work, as I'm worried about him going back in stasis. His poops just now were so tiny they were almost invisible. =(

I will definitely talk to my vet tomorrow about anti-nausea meds. I read today that if Metacam isn't working then we may need steroids.


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## tonyshuman (Aug 9, 2009)

I don't think steroids are a good choice. We've recently been talking about different pain medicine, and the next step up from Metacam is a narcotic like Tramadol or Buprenorphine. Steroids are contra-indicated in situations where there's an infection, because they knock down the immune system, which is needed to fight the infection. In fact, some people think steroids aren't good for rabbits at all, because they have so many pathogens that exist in them normally at sub-infection levels, (including pasturella, one of the common ear infection bacteria). The rabbit's immune system usually keeps them in check so decreasing its ability to do so isn't a good idea, especially if there's already an infection going on. A narcotic pain med may help, and I really think the meclizine will help as well. Poor little guy. I know this is difficult to get through. Can you give him his fluids while he's lying down like that? As long as he stays still and you get them in the subcutaneous space, it should be good.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 9, 2009)

I had to change the setup again, as he got totally stuck on his back in the one above.






I will ask the vet about some Meclizine, or something to help tomorrow. He really is a poor little guy. I made the new pen so that Lego can get in if she wishes to see him, but he won't be able to get out. Plus when I'm not there to supervise I'll attach on an added panel to close up that open spot. 

I am doing my best not to worry... but it's very difficult when he's basically just laying there, unable to even get up.


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## Flashy (Aug 10, 2009)

Yeh, that was what I meant but equally understand different things work for different buns. Do you feel his new set up works better for him?

I'm wondering if being with his girliefriend more might help bring him some comfort and keep him company in the times when you are not around. Some bunnies are not good for that though, do you think she might be good for him?

It is hard to worry, and its also incredibly scary, but you're doing all the right things and no one could do more. Hopefully he will perk up soon.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 10, 2009)

Tracy... thanks for the vote of confidence. I can't tell you how much my anxiety goes up when I can't get the Critical Care into him. Like last night before bed. Then this morning again. But I left him alone for a bit to calm back down while I changed his bedding, then I burrito'd him back up and tried again. Got it in (all but just a little) that time. And we were both able to get a nap in after that.

This morning, if I'm not mistaken, his eyes aren't going back and forth very much, if at all. He's been on his feet a few times, just can't seem to stay on them for very long tho. I didn't realize just how "dizzy" it would make him with me lifting him for feedings, and needles. So yesterday I went incredibly slow with him, and covered his eyes when possible... maybe that helped?

I saw him have a few twigs of hay. And he's eaten all the veggies I've given him. This morning I gave him a bit of carrot... holy cow! Both him and Lego REALLY wanted that, and more. Lego was quite a sassy little girl about it actually. 

I did call the vet, and she's called in sick, so I will try back again tomorrow... but this will give me one more day to monitor him.

O'kay back to check on him.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 10, 2009)

Little man has had his lunch and some water (via syringe). He's now sitting like a chicken and sleeping. Fingers crossed that he is able to maintain an upright position like this more and more!!


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## Flashy (Aug 10, 2009)

Wahoo! I wonder if the difference is how slowly you are moving him and how more aware you are about how disorientating it was for him.

You're doing great  Hooray for good days and little improvements.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 10, 2009)

he's been sleeping a lot... wonder if that's a problem :/


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 10, 2009)

I just checked on him again... his ears are cold.


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## tonyshuman (Aug 10, 2009)

Try keeping him warm with a rice sock. Just put uncooked rice in a sock and tie it off, microwave for 1-2 min.

:fingers crossed:


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## tonyshuman (Aug 10, 2009)

Is he still sitting like a chicken? How alert does he seem? If he goes un-alert or floppy ever, it's an emergency.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 10, 2009)

He's laying on his side. I got his meds & food into him, his Pen G and his fluids. But his whole body is doing tiny shakes. I put a small towel on him to keep him warm. Earlier... just before his fluids, he was trying to groom his face... so I just don't know.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 10, 2009)

Just checked back in on him and he's grooming his face.


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## tonyshuman (Aug 10, 2009)

Ok, it sounds like he's probably ok. The shakes and coldness make me worry. When are you going back to the vet? I don't know, if his ears still feel cold and he's shaking he may need a checkup again soon. The shakes sounds like he might be shivering. I'd try to warm him up if you can. If you don't have rice and a sock, you can use an electric heating pad or hot water bottle. Just make sure he can't chew on the pad or cord, and tat he can get away if he wants to.


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## tonyshuman (Aug 10, 2009)

Grooming and the fact that he's had his food, water and meds are good.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 11, 2009)

I don't think he's shaking anymore. The towel over him seems to have helped. I'm going to stay with him tonight.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 11, 2009)

I called the vet today... to talk about the eye movement, etc. but she had called in sick today. I will be calling her tomorrow tho. And I do have a hot water bottle, while I'll use next if he starts shivering again. Just wondering if the fluids could have cooled him down?


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 11, 2009)

Maybe he's tired b/c he has lots of food in his belly?


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## Flashy (Aug 11, 2009)

The fluids have to be given at body temperature, so they shouldn't cool him down. Are they being given at body temperature?

How is he doing this morning?


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 11, 2009)

The fluids are being given at room temp. The vet didn't say anything. What is body temp for a bunny? How would I warm it up?

He's still laying there. No improvement. Last night he got up some to eat some hay... but he can only get up for a second, then it's right back over on his side. Shouldn't I be seeing some improvement by now?

His poops got real tiny, as were his cecos. I think it was due to the missed meal or two (when he would allow me to feed him, which trust me had me in absolute tears). I've been getting every meal in since then. 

I'm just kinda a basket case... due to the worry and lack of sleep. My boss is allowing me to work short hours again this week... but I need to get him well enough to eat/drink on his own. He's alone right now at home and I can't wait until 12:30 so I can get home and check on him. But I'm exhausted... I worry that he'll be rolling and hurt himself.

Generally feeling like this :cry1:


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## tonyshuman (Aug 11, 2009)

Body temp is around 100F, more than a human's which is also 37C.

I'm so sorry this is so difficult. We're here pulling for you guys. I'm glad he ate some hay on his own. How is the antibiotic course going? Is he still on every other day?


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 12, 2009)

Hey guys... I took some time to get some sleep yesterday... I was wearing myself out and it wasn't helping him or me. I believe he was going back into stasis... as his poops were all but gone again (and/or he was having lots of little mushy ones), and he was getting quite poorly. The vet thought he was out of stasis last week and when she gave me all the new meds, she said I can stop the oval. Well yesterday I finally decided to start them back up again. Got lots of food into him and then did LOTS of tummy massages. I could hear and feel the gas... poor guy! But after a bit he was able to relax and actually purred.

I called the vet yesterday, and asked about continuing the sub q fluids, as I am worried about getting enough fluids into him orally. So I got another package of that. I also asked about continuing the Pen G on an every other day routine, instead of moving to twice a week already... as I haven't seen any improvement... only decline. I now realize that was probably mostly due to his going back into stasis tho. After giving him lots of food yesterday and lots of tummy massages, and encouraging him to eat hay, I believe that he ate a fair bit of it last night during sleep. I didn't sleep in their room last night... as I really needed to re-charge myself. 

I was getting really anxious these past few days (from Sat. to now), as he wouldn't take any food on Sat. and then he just seemed to be doing worse and worse. At this point he's not able to even get up... but he is acting a lot more perky, and I even heard lots of little (chirping?) noises last night.

Anyways, we're taking things one day at a time... hopefully we will see improvement soon. Tonight will mark one week on Pen G.

Claire, I talked to the vet about the fluids... she said she usually doesn't get her clients to warm the water (prob. worried ppl will make it too warm), but I asked about putting the bag into a warm water bath, and she thought that would be good. We did that last night and no shivering!! I will definitely warm it up from now on. I put the bag (before warming it up) against my arm... and yeah, it's definitely cool to the touch. I felt soo bad, but it's amazing what you can do when you're ignorant of things. I wish I had know back when this all began, what I know now... but all we can do it move forward, and try to stay as positive as possible!


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## Flashy (Aug 12, 2009)

Hopefully working out the problem will mean he can start moving forward with him. 

You're doing the right thing by recharging your batteries because you're right, you can't look after him unless you look after yourself.

I hope you start to see some improvement now


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 12, 2009)

Thanks Tracy... I've been praying... and if it's God's will we will be seeing improvement before long!


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## tonyshuman (Aug 12, 2009)

I'm glad his GI system is doing better, and you've figured out the cause of the shivers. Also, I'm glad you've been able to relax! Having a bunny who's so sick can be exhausting. You're doing a great job for them. I hope the vet agrees that continuing the injections every other day for another week will help. It's ok to give him ovol every day while he's undergoing this treatment, you can wean him off of it later. You just want to get enough food into him that he can recover well and as quickly as possible.

Thinking of you guys!


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 12, 2009)

Well I'll have to ask later how to approach weaning him off the oval... one thing at a time tho. I came home today about 1 pm for his mid-day feeding. His tummy was all kinds of sore again and full of gas, so I massaged once again a bit past purring. I think that once I get his tummy all relaxed and the gas bubbles broken up he then feels good enough to eat hay... which is what I think he's been up to the last three hours while I've been napping again. (I have a lot of catching up to do).

I snapped a pic of the poos I got since his lunch time meal... as you can see, the poop looking ones are really tiny, as are the softer ones.






I had gotten to the point where he was having nice solid poos and they were getting bigger. Now we are back at this stage again. I'm feeding him every meal, giving him oval and massaging his tummy. Anything else I should be doing? 

Thanks again!


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## tonyshuman (Aug 12, 2009)

Probiotic? That would help. If you can't find the other stuff, acidophilus capsules are the ones you can break open and sprinkle on his food or give via syringe.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 12, 2009)

He's on a probiotic... and has been for maybe a week now.

I've listed the probiotic I got him in detail on post #27 on page one...
http://rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=49171&forum_id=16&page=1


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## tonyshuman (Aug 12, 2009)

Ok, I wasn't sure he was still on that. I guess there's not a lot you can do, then.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 12, 2009)

Aw man... do I feel louzy! I had to stick him three different times in order to get the Pen G in him... =(

And I still have to do his fluids yet tonight too.


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## Flashy (Aug 13, 2009)

Try not to worry, it happens, but you got there, which is the important thing.

How are you both today?


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 13, 2009)

Well he had lots of output last night... still having the sticky yucky ones. Jacub himself is still just laying there... sleeping a lot. I really wish we could get him on his feet... as he's having a lot of gas from just laying. Hoping to see improvement in the next few days. :expressionless

Does anyone know ifit iso'kay/good to give him veggies right now... while we're trying to get him past the stasis? Any to avoid? I've been giving him Kale, Cilantro & Romaine... but not sure if any of those is gas producing?


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## Flashy (Aug 13, 2009)

Is he on any Meclizine now? I've forgotten, sorry.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 13, 2009)

No he's still on Metacam... as Meclazine is difficult to get in Canada, apparently. Shoppers no longer carries it.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 13, 2009)

yeah... I just called around... and it's been discontinued in Canadark.


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## Flashy (Aug 13, 2009)

Could you vets get any in?

To those in different countries, is it available on prescription or over the counter?

I'm just wondering if there could be a way to get one because you never know, it could make the world of difference.


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## tonyshuman (Aug 13, 2009)

That's strange. It's an OTC remedy for seasickness here, brand name Bonine. Is there a Canadian pharmacy online where I could get names of seasickness pills that are available there?

Kale can be a bit gassy, so you might stop that. I know my guys LOVE it so if it's all he'll eat, that's fine. Moving around should help reduce gas.


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## Flashy (Aug 13, 2009)

If the OP was willing, could some be sent to her from the US? Could we find someone willing to do that do we think?


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 13, 2009)

Gah... I'm really trying not to worry here. But I just don't seem to be able to help my poor little boy. I have been feeding him his entire meal every meal since night time saturday (actually since July 31st, but last sat he wouldn't take any), given him oval since a couple days ago, massaging his tummy for long periods of time, water, veggies, etc. But his tummy just keeps filling up with gas. And he can't move to get it out on his own.


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## tonyshuman (Aug 13, 2009)

I could do it.


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## tonyshuman (Aug 13, 2009)

It is sold as Bonine, Bonamine, Antivert, Postafen, and Dramamine (Less Drowsy Formulation). It used to be sold as Antivert in Canada.

edit: found a reference that talks about long-term use of antibiotics in rabbits with head tilt--we were concerned before because the reference we had was for abscesses, not ear infection, and here it says to use for 4weeks-6 months (that sounds a bit excessive to me).
http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-8/head-tilt.html


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## dquesnel (Aug 14, 2009)

*MagnoliaDee wrote: *


> But his tummy just keeps filling up with gas.


This concerns me a bit as even with an inactive rabbit, the gut should not be continuously fill with gas.

I would keep him on the Ovol as many as 4 doses a day. In truth, that stuff does no harm at all. It will help break up those bubbles.

I would start to suspect Clostridium bacteria because of the gas and what he has been through. He is on Pen G which is ridding his body of good bacteria too. This opens the door for an overgrowth of bad bacteria. You can treat this with Cholestyramine (Questran in Canada) it binds to the bacteria so that they are not so dangerous, basically. Recently Randy also pointed out sucess with a item called "Biosponge", you can see his thread here: http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=49567&forum_id=16

Pain meds are good, sadly they do slow down GI activity but if a rabbit is in enough pain it is worth it.

His poops actually do not look that bad. Not normal, but not bad. It sounds like the gas is a big problem right now and I would look at why this is happening, and perhaps treat against Clostridium. It sounds like that indeed a cause of his gas and discomfort. 
_
_


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 14, 2009)

Thanks dquesnel... I'll speak with my vet about this.

As for the meclizine... how do you get it in the US? It finally occurred to me yesterday that I will be in MI this sat. to pick up some Timmothy Hay I ordered for the buns... would I need a prescription?


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## Flashy (Aug 14, 2009)

*tonyshuman wrote: *


> It is sold as Bonine, Bonamine, Antivert, Postafen, and Dramamine (Less Drowsy Formulation). It used to be sold as Antivert in Canada.
> 
> edit: found a reference that talks about long-term use of antibiotics in rabbits with head tilt--we were concerned before because the reference we had was for abscesses, not ear infection, and here it says to use for 4weeks-6 months (that sounds a bit excessive to me).
> http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-8/head-tilt.html


Claire says those are the names, and in a previous post mentioned it is an over the counter medicine.

On length of time to treat, we treated for 2 solid months, and I have a feeling Randy said he treated a bunny for 8 monts solid at one point. It's all going to vary depending on the infection, etc.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 14, 2009)

o'kay I'll have a look while I'm over there! Hopefully we can find the non-drousy one as the last thing I need is him sleeping more.

Thanks Tracy!!


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 14, 2009)

Here are some pics and vids I took last night...
















[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oyr8mmKVYo[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4AGLAMb93E[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gePZtfnuhM4[/ame]

I had to stop him quite a few time last night from rolling.


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## tonyshuman (Aug 14, 2009)

Just a quick note as I'm on my way out the door. Meclizine is found under those trade names (just make sure it says the active ingredient is meclizine and it doesn't contain things like caffeine as well). It's available over the counter in most drug stores, even some grocery stores.


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## Flashy (Aug 14, 2009)

Those videos are both sad and lovely at the same time. He looks like he still has a sparkle in his eyes even though the world has been upended for him.

Poor him and poor you. Claire has given all the ace info on the Meclizine and I sure hope you manage to get some and that it offers him some help.


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## tonyshuman (Aug 14, 2009)

Hey Lego, don't steal his lettuce!!

I agree about the videos. He looks alert, and it's great to see him eating on his own. The more hay and romaine he eats, the better he will feel! He has a brightness in his eyes that tells me he's alert and normal in there, but it just seems like gravity is turned the wrong way!

You can definitelly give ovol with every feeding, and it's a relatively safe drug, so the amount dquesnel said sounds fine as a max. The way simethicone works is that it acts directly on the ingested food to get more gas dissolved in the liquid--it's a surfactant that increases gas's solubility in liquid. Therefore, it doesn't actually go into the cells of the body or out of the digestive tract to do stuff, so the side effects are very minimal. 

I just checked our walgreens, and couldn't find meclizine... I didn't ask around though. It's probably something they carry, but it wasn't with the other tummy medicine or the other anti-seasickness stuff (which has an antihistamine as the active ingredient, that's why Dramamine normal formula makes you drowsy). I think your best bet will be a big store like Wal-Mart or asking the pharmacist at Walgreens to help you find Meclizine.

I think the gas comes from his diet--he probably ate a lot more, particularly more hay before. It could be from Pen G, but that seems to be pretty good about not having many GI side effects. The probiotic should help with that.

Also, if you want me to send some Bene-Bac and try to find some Meclizine, please let me know as I go on vacation tomorrow and might not be able to while I'm on vacation.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 14, 2009)

I tried to give Jake his Pen G injection tonight and it failed miserably. I can't really get him on his feet in order to find his back, to make a tent of the skin to put the needle into. He just wants to be upside down. I finally decided to try a spot and nothing would come out of the needle. Try a new spot... same thing. Tried a third spot, nothing. Pull out the needle and try it... it's totally stuck in there. Push a bit and half of it flies into the air. So I put the needle back into the rest of the Pen G to get back to the dose I want. Now my husband says that I've just spoiled the whole rest of it. Most likely right. Stuggle to find a spot... try again... it's totally stuck again. I'm totally shaking at this point. Try the needle in the air... nothing. Hubby tries and again half of it flies in the air. Decide to put the rest in. It was horrible. 

We still have fluids to do... =( Hubby says he'll try this time, since I just can't do it anymore.


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## pumpkinandwhiskersmom (Aug 14, 2009)

Thinking of you!...so sorry that you and your dear boy are going thru so much right now!


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## tonyshuman (Aug 14, 2009)

Oh dear. I think the pen G is still ok. Are you injecting it as-is or diluting it? It's common to dilute it 1:1 with sterile saline because of the thickness. Good luck.


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## Flashy (Aug 15, 2009)

Can maybe one of you hold Jake in the right position, and the other do the injecting? Would that make it easier?


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 15, 2009)

We're injecting it as is. I'll call the vet today to make sure it's still o'kay to use the rest. 

I pray that you will all bear with me as I ride my emotional rollercoaster. Giving the injections is hard... for me. I feel so bad that I have to poke him every single day.

Last night's fluids went pretty well, thankfully. And I did do the injection myself. Hubby and I talked it over and we figured that there must be a better way... esp. for a head tilt bunny who's world is upside down right now. So I put him on his towel on the ground and we decided to try to do it with him laying as is. Just wrap up the bum, head and feet area, leaving his back exposed. This worked really well... and I will pray that it will continue to work. Trying to get him on his feet was just very stressful to him (and me to), and with doing it laying where he was comfortable, he didn't struggle at all.

I hope that you all don't mind me posting my anxieties... I know it must be infuriating to read positive then negative, repeat, repeat... but I think it helps me to deal with them.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 15, 2009)

oh, and thanks everyone for letting me know that I can give ovol at every meal, I think it's helping. Tho he doesn't seem to like it "that" much, lol.


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## Flashy (Aug 15, 2009)

I don't see how anyone could mind you posting your anxieties. We've all done it. Owning a bunny can be stressful at the best of times, let alone when your bunny is so ill, because it is incredibly scary. It's far better to go through it and share it with people than deal with it by yourself. So if posting about your fears, worries, anxieties, achievements, etc, helps, then go for it 

I'm glad you have found a way that works better for him, that's great, hopefully it will make it easier for you


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 15, 2009)

Thanks Tracy... it really does help. And yes, the anxiety pretty much stems from fear... fear that I'm not getting enough food or water into him. Fear for his lower eye. Fear that he's not on his feet... what does this mean? Will he be able to get on his feet? To recover? Just soo many worries right now.

On a positive note tho... he finally took one of his cecotropes yesterday and more this morning (he wouldn't take them for the last half a month)... so I feel happy about that. It will surely help his nutritional state.


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## Flashy (Aug 15, 2009)

Every little step forward is progress.

Maybe it's worth recording somewhere ALL the positive things that happen (ignoring the negative) so that you can look back and realise he has made baby steps forward. It might give you a boost.

I know this is easier said than done, but those worries, whilst very real, valid and normal, are not actually beneficial for either he, nor you. All they do is add stress to the situation. So if you can, try not to dwell on those worries. Ultimately, you are absolutely doing the very best you can, which is all you can do; its all anyone can do.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 15, 2009)

You are right about the worries not being productive Tracy... just not sure how to turn them off.

So my hay didn't come in, the company sent pellets in error... so I won't be able to get over to MI until next weekend. And I was soo hoping to get the meclizine today.


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## Flashy (Aug 16, 2009)

Yes, its definitely not easy to just turn them off, just try not to dwell them on too much, try and distract yourself or turn your mind away from it when you catch yourself worrying needlessly.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 16, 2009)

Jacub is still rolling a lot. I do all I can to avoid the rolls... but they seem inevitable at times. Anyways, during a roll yesterday I happened to see his "down" eye... which he has been keeping closed. It's definitely irritated... and not looking good. Any thoughts on what I can do to help it? I'm going to call the vet. So far I've been using bath towels under him to catch the urine & provide cushion. But my hubby suggested that I use a finer material at least under his head. So I've cut up a shirt and I have that under his head right now. I figure the vet will give me some drops... but anything else?


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## Flashy (Aug 16, 2009)

Can you bathe the eye? Cooled boiled water should be ok. Tjhat's what we used with Tilly.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 17, 2009)

I'm not sure... but will speak with the vet today. This is pretty frustrating... Wed will mark two weeks on the Pen, and he's recently just started really rolling like crazy. I really hoped that we would be seeing signs of improvement... not the other way around. I can barely lift him up now (for feedings/injections) without him struggling to roll. :tears2:


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## Flashy (Aug 17, 2009)

I'm sorry the battle is hard. I wonder if the Pen G is not the right anti-biotic for him and maybe he needs something else. Any location on any Meclizine at all?


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 17, 2009)

According to the culture report Penn fights both of the infections he has. I plan to look for Meclizine when I'm in MI (if not on Tues, then Sat). I have an appointment for this afternoon, to see about his eye, and general condition. Going to ask for a weight a temp and about a CBC.


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## Flashy (Aug 17, 2009)

What a stressful time. I wonder if maybe Randy might be able to chime in on what other things might be useful, not sure how much he is around though.

Just try to take each moment as it comes.


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## pumpkinandwhiskersmom (Aug 17, 2009)

That's what the forum is here for....to help us get through the tough times, and to share the good times, IMHO.


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## MagnoliaDee (Aug 17, 2009)

Binky free my sweet Jacub. Mommy loves you more than I can ever explain... I pray that you are bouncing happily around in the cloud nows... free of pain and suffering.
:bigtears:


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## Flashy (Aug 17, 2009)

Oh Sandra I'm so sorry. I'm so incredibly gutted for you. I wish I could reach through the computer screen and give you a hug.

Binky Free Jacub. You have an awesome mum, and awesome bond friend and an awesome life.

Binky Free Sweet boy.


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## slavetoabunny (Aug 17, 2009)

I'm just bawling my eyes out right now Sandra. I'm so sad that Jacub lost his battle. Please tell me if there is anything I can do.


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## pumpkinandwhiskersmom (Aug 17, 2009)

I'm crying here, too. You certainly took great care of Jacub. I'm so incredibly sorry that he's gone. 

Binky-free, dear Jacub!:rainbow:


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## kirsterz09 (Aug 19, 2009)

so sorry to hear of your loss, you did a awful lot for him, he would of passed on knowing his mom loved him very much!
Binky free Jacub :angelandbunny:


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## tonyshuman (Aug 21, 2009)

:cry1:


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