# Pen G Vs. Bicillin



## bunnymommy76 (Mar 13, 2008)

Hi everyone,

I got some bad news at the vet today. Pidgey's abcess has come back.

I opted not to do surgery again, he's getting old, I worry about him being sedated so much. Anyway, I mentioned the Pen G to the vet which they did know about, and are willing to try. However as I'm doing more research here I see that there is also Bicillin. I thought they were the same drug. What exactly is the difference between the two and Is one better than the other, which oneshould pidge be put on?

julie


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## ra7751 (Mar 13, 2008)

Hi Julie,

It's the same drug. You want to use the form that contains 150K units of Procaine and 150K unitsof Benzathine for a total of 300K units of active drug per mL. This drugis a cattle drug and can be purchased without prescription at farm supply stores. This drug is safe only when injected. It should be buffered with something like lactated ringers solution to ease the burn and lessen the risk of some skin issues at the injecton point. Also move the injection points around and don't do them in the same area each time. I do most of my injections on the flank. This drug should be refrigerated but warm up the dose before injecting. This treatment is very effective when used concurrently with Zithromax. I have been using this combination of drugs for quite some time with perfect success (so far anyway). I even have my primary vetusing this drug protocol now. I do use an anti-inflammatory for the first few days. Aggressive pain meds (narcotics) will also aid in the treatment. I do a "full boat" support therapy that includes sub-q fluids and nutritional supplements....anything to help the immune system.

You might also ask about using a drug called Chloramphenicol. It is a highly effective drug. I also use it quite a bit. There are some precautions when using this drug....but not for the rabbit, for the human giving the drug. Has been some bone marrow issues in humans (rare). This drug should not be used if the penicillin is used.

Randy


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## Haley (Mar 13, 2008)

Randy,isnt the difference between Bicillin and PenG that Bicillin is PenG + Benzathine? I was under the impression that PenG alone has to be given every day whereas in Bicillin (TwinPen, ComboPen etc) it has the Benzathine which helps it last longer so its every other day. 

Julie. Ive used Bicillin in my boy who had a severe jaw abscess and it worked wonders. He actually had surgery to remove the abscess twice. The first time we didnt use Bicillin and the abscess came back. After the second surgery we used Bicillin for about 6 months and hes been fine for over a year.


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## ra7751 (Mar 13, 2008)

It appears that most of that stuff has kinda morphed together. There is or was a Bicillin LA and a Bicillin CRand then there was the thing that the Bicillin (capital B) was a human version and bicillin (lower case b) was the animal version. The bottle I have in front of me says Pen G Procaine and Pen G Benzathine. All of these different versions is why I am specific about the concentrations. 150K of Procaine and 150K of Benzathine. No confusion that way.


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## Bo B Bunny (Mar 14, 2008)

I hope and pray that Pidge does well.


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## Haley (Mar 14, 2008)

That makes sense, Randy. I know when my vets speak of the two they call PenG Procaine just PenG. When they are referring to PenG Procaine plus PenG Benzathine its called Bicillin, TwinPen or Combo Pen because it has the "two" Penicillins in it. 

Youre right, its important to discuss the concentration since the names seem to vary.


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## bunnymommy76 (Mar 14, 2008)

Thanks guys!

I'm taking him to this new vet that I was referred to by my vet on thursday to talk about non-surgical treatment. I was just trying to get my facts straight on the Pen G/ Bicillin before talking to the vet about it. I think Im just going to print this thread out and let the doctor read randys explaination.

I feel so sorry for the little guy, I knew it was going to come back!! From the very begining Randy kept telling me that he needed a more aggressive treatment, i told my vet this and they didnt want to do it, now that it came back they are sending me somewhere elsebecause I want to try the injections., Ugh, gotta love those vets!

thanks again guys

julie


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## ra7751 (Mar 14, 2008)

Hi Julie, 

I understand your frustrations with the vet. In their defense, they get very little training on exotics in vet school. That is why I get called often to take my critters up for students doing clinicals. The students I have worked with have been exposed to real world problems with real world bunnies....nothing like they would see in a lab animal. What the students get from myanimals isas real as it gets. The doctors rely on reference material that might be a bit out of date. There are also legality issues in some states...something like veterinary malpractice. That would be an interesting claim since no drugs are certified for use in rabbits by the FDA. Any treatment of a rabbit (and most other exotics) are considered "off label". There are also limits placed on treatment by the owners of the clinic. If the doctor is a staff doctor, he/she has to follow the rules of the boss if they want to continue to work there. It puts the doctors in a bad spot sometimes. I have worked side by side with many vets..and in many cases of wildlife the doctor has worked as my "tech"....I rarely see any vet that is not a top notch professional. And I understand their situation completely when it comes to exotics.

The treatment for abscesses is very challenging. Just a few years ago, an abscess in a rabbit was a death sentence. Then, especially with mandibular absesses, there was surgery and anti-biotic laced beads. It has been pretty much a failure. Expensive, painful and rarely successful. Many of the earliest beads had clindamycin in them....a great drug that can handle most any bacteria....but it tends to migrate to the GI tissue and does a number on that bacteria too. And we all know what happens then.

The treatment I am using was actually developed right here....I did it myself several years ago. I amsure thatsome of those talented vets out there have also discovered this....I just lucked up...but luck counts. I have a very handsome Blue Eyed White dwarf named Finlay. He had a hole in his jaw. I "burned the midnight oil" researching drugs that might help him since we knew his health would not allow surgery....and the Pen G/Zithromax did the trick. I have used it successfully many times. Chloramphenicol might also be a possibility. And I am doing some investigation of using another drug, Metronidazole (Flagyl) against the anaerobic core of dental abscesses. I use that drug quite a bit in stasis situations....but it has some interesting properties that allow it to pass thru the blood/brain barrier, it can penetrate the thick pus and it appears that it can penetrate bone. This might be interesting but time will tell on this one.

Keep us posted...and healing vibes are headed to Pidge from our warren.

Randy


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## bunnymommy76 (Mar 20, 2008)

I took Pidge to the new vet today. The bottom line was that the doctor put him on the regular penicillin G not the bicillin. I'm a little confused as to why He only has him taking it once a week though, I thought this was an every day injection???

I don't know what the dosage was that the doctor gave him, could this be why he is only getting it once a week, because maybe the dosage is higher? I'ma little confused,I am going to question this when I take him next Thursday. (The doctor is doing the injections, home injections wasn't even mentioned)

What is all of your take on this, if your bunny was on Pen-G, how often were you giving it?

julie


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## Pipp (Mar 20, 2008)

Sorry if this was already posted, but if not, you may find that info in an awesome new page Haley just added to the Antibiotics entry in the Library... 

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=15010&forum_id=10&jump_to=449212#p449212



sas


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## bunnymommy76 (Mar 20, 2008)

Very Interesting, Thanks for the info!!! 

Makes me feel better that I am treating him correctly


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## Haley (Mar 21, 2008)

Julie, 

I should edit the thread because maybe this part is unclear:

******MISUSES AND INACCURACIES *****

Bicillin is in the blood for 7 days so once/week is enough

PenâG Procaine is bicillin

Maintenance dose every 3 days

Leave Bicillin out for over an hour to warm*

Marcy isnt saying this stuff is true, shes sayingtheseare misuses/innaccuracies that shes hearing a lot of. You need to either call your vet asap or findanother vet. The once a week dose of PenG is for treating syphillis in rabbits. If you give your bunny PenG once a weekit will be ineffective or could create resistent bacteria. Heres Marcy's quote:

"Many rabbits have done very well on daily injections for 1 month then 
on every other day for another month or two or until cured. If your 
rabbit has an abscess it is treated aggressively until the abscess is 
GONE/ERADICATED/CURED. It could take 8 weeks or it could take 8 
months. DO NOT go to every 3 days. This protocol was tried and 
failed. The most dangerous thing you can do is a maintenance dose 
with antibiotics. The idea is to eradicate the infection not create 
resistant bacteria"

My vet tried the same thing when I first put Max on Bicillin. I had to go buy the stuff myself and give the injections.


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## bunnymommy76 (Mar 21, 2008)

Oh okay, I read it wrong. So I was right in my original thinking, it should be given every day?!?

Hmm, I had a appt with the other vet for tomorrow and canceled it, I wonder if I could still get him in.

Im nervous now, what if I can't get him in, I dont want him to get resistant to this, this is the one potential drug that could finally help him.

Where is everyone getting this on their own, even if I do get him in I dont know if the vet is going to go for it, I may have to do it on my own too.

Im going to be climbing the walls until 8am tomorrow when the vet opens, I hope I can get him in and they can give him another injection or show me how to do it. Im going to be a nervous nelly all night!!!

Thanks so much for clarifying that for me!!!


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## Haley (Mar 21, 2008)

Not a problem. Have you checked our list of recommended vets to see if there's anyone in your area? I know how frustrating it is to have to deal with vets who arent as up to date on rabbit care.

Do you have a Tractor Supply Co. near you? Bicillin (150k units PenG Procaine + 150k unitsPenG Benzathine) can be purchased at most TSCs and maybe even other feed stores. It is marketed for cattle and is labeled usually as CombiPen, Twin Pen, Pen BP 48 and is an injectable subQ antibiotic. Theimportant thingtolookfor is the concentration. Bicillin is meant to be given SubQ every other day.

Its best if you can try to find a good vet to work with, but sometimes we have to take things into our own hands for the health of our bunnies. 

Did you print out that study by Marcy Moore to show to your vet? The link has case studies and everything. I dont know how a vet can ignore that. 

http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~jwmoore/bicillin/bicillin.htm

Heres Marcy's email as well: [email protected] Maybe she would call your vet or something if you contact her and tell her whats going on?


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## bunnymommy76 (Mar 21, 2008)

Thank you so much Haley!

I dont have a tractor supply company near me.

I have printed out the Bicillin study and brought it to the vet on thursday, he didnt even want to read it. He told me no, just have him take the PenG once a week. This vet I am talking about getting him into tomorrow is a different vet again, I am on my 4th vet now. If I can get him in tomorrow I am going to bring the article. This Doctor was familiar with it and said she went to a seminar on it, she had all kinds of notes on dosage and such, she just sent me to this other doctor for a 2nd opinion, but it seems that she is more familiar with it!


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## Haley (Mar 21, 2008)

Let us know if you get ahold of anyone in the morning. It might be difficult being Easter weekend though. 

Heres our link to IL rabbit savvy vets in case you want to have a look around.

Hope that helps a little. If you only have enough PenG for once a week I think I would just hold off for now. Make sure your vet knows it has to be Bicillin (PenG Procaine plus PenG Benzathine) and not just the PenG.

Haley


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## bunnymommy76 (Mar 21, 2008)

Will do! just one more question, you said to watch for the right concentration, what should it be? is this the 150 K of each Pen G procaine and Pen G benzathine. Does anyone know of a good website to purchase this from, if I have to take that route?


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## Haley (Mar 21, 2008)

Yup, its 300,000 units (150k PenG Procaine and 150k PenG Benzathine). I found an online site once you could order from but the problem is Im not sure how it would be shipped and still be effective since it has to be refridgerated. 

Do you have any other farm/feed stores near you? Hopefully this other vet can get it for you. Did they show you how to do injections at home?


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## bunnymommy76 (Mar 21, 2008)

I found a tractor supply co about 45 mins from me, I would have to go into indiana to get it. 45 mins isnt too bad, besides my boy is worth it! No, I was never shown how to give an injection, but this vet I am going to try to get him into tommorrow did say that they could show me, so thats good!! Hopefully they will have the bicillin too!

well, im going to try and get some sleep, I will call the vet first thing 8AM, and let ya know whats going on. thanks for everything!

julie


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## ra7751 (Mar 22, 2008)

Hi Julie,

A little more information about using Pen G. I was using this drug before this doctor wrote this article (I also use some other drugs that are considered "off limits" to rabbits and have been for years). I would make the trip to the TSC. The product I purchased from them is called Combi-Pen-48. I think I paid a bit over $10 for a 100mL bottle. As mentioned, it does require refrigeration.

When I use this drug, I pull the amount I need into a syringe. I also buffer this drug with a sterile solution like Lactated Ringers. This does a couple of things. First, the drug is very thick. The smallest needle that you can effectively use is 21g. The Lactated Ringers will thin this drug to make it easier to inject. It will also buffer the "sting" as this drug burns like h-e-double hockey sticks.....us old folks have had penicillin injections. In severe infections, it can be administered every day but I normally do it every other day. The two components act in different ways....one is a "blitzkrieg" type operation in which it enters the blood and starts to work very quickly and the other component is a long duration drug that takes longer to establish but stays at a working level for a longer period of time.

A couple of tips on injecting....I use a little different method so you will need a sympathetic and supportive vet (or human medical person) to help with this. I do not use the normal syringe for injections unless it is a small enough dose to use an insulin syringe (U100). I use a 21g "Winged Catheter" aka Butterfly. This has a needle that has wings and a tube. This allows some "wiggle room" when doing the injections. As opposed to a stiff syringe, if the rabbit suddenly hops backward, the catheter just flexes instead of having a hard syringe possible tear the skin. It should be used with the screw on type lock...known as a "Luer Lock". There is also something called a "Luer Slip" but that requires the needle to be pushed on....the screw on is much better. You can use any size syringe you are comfortable with as long as it has the screw type lock. You would also want to move the injections around. Hitting the same area all the time will usually result in some ugly skin abscesses....most of the time they are not a huge problem but they just don't look good. If you know of anyone in the medical profession be it animal, human or even EMTs or paramedics....they can teach you how to sub-q in just a few minutes. Learning to do injections...both how and especially when...opens an entirely new world of treatment possibilities.

And a couple of final thoughts. I have has success in using the Pen G in combination with Zithromax in treating abscesses.That combination really packs a punch (and that is exactly what itdoes...punchesholes in the cell walls of the bacteria) Couple of things to watch for....some of the "tag along" infections. This is where a culture would come in handy. While these infections are not the core of the abscess, which is what to go after, a couple of secondary infections may require follow up treatment. We have seen Pseudomonas "which can be a little testy to treat) and recently, and for the first time in a rabbit that I have seen, we had a jaw abscess with a strain of Strep as a tag along. But these were "mop ups" that we worked after resolving the primary core of the abscess. In other words, this may take a while.

I would really try to find a vet that looks "outside" the box. In your vet's defense, if they don't own the practice, they might be limited by clinic policy on what they can do that is not available in their publications they use. And unfortunately, I see a lot of outdated information that is available in vet clinics as far as rabbits and other "exotics".

And the correct concentration of the drug you need is 150K units of Procaine and 150k units of Benzathine for a total drug concentration of 300K units per mL. There are other concentrations so read the label carefully.

Randy


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## Haley (Mar 22, 2008)

I just emailed a few friends inthe S. Chicago area last night to ask about rabbit savvy vets in the area. I just heard back from one bunny mom and this is who she highly recommends:

Dr. Kate Ball at Mokena Animal Clinic
9455 west 191st. Street, Mokena, IL
708-479-2811

If thats close to you it might be worth at least calling there and asking if she has ever treated abscesses in rabbits with Bicillin and/or Zithromax.


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## bunnymommy76 (Mar 22, 2008)

Hi Haley,

Yes, Pidge has seen Dr.Kate before, this was who I was talking about getting him in with today.They wereable to sqeeze him in. She pulled his records from the last vet and even said that she was very surprised that he was only on the Pen G once a week. She is so nice and understanding about things. She didswitch Pidgeto the Bicillin every other day! We are going to see how he is doing next friday, if it seems to be helping she is going to show me how to do it at home. Whew, what a relief, Im so glad she knew about this treatment and had it there at the vet. I can relax a little now, I was so worried about him getting the correct treatment.

Thanks for all your help!

Julie


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## Haley (Mar 22, 2008)

Thats awesome! 

I should mention it can sometimes take a while to notice any effects. For me it was probably almost a month. Its definitely good if she can show you how to do it at home- I cant imagine having to go to the vets every other day! Not to mention its less stressful on Pidgey.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Haley

PS. Randy's advice on using Lactated Ringers to buffer the shot is great. You should definitly ask her about this when you go in. Its just a saline solution so I cant imagine why they wouldnt.


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## bunnymommy76 (Mar 22, 2008)

yeah, I have heard that it can take some time before it starts to really work. I will ask her about the lactated ringers also, I'm sure she will be fine with it, shes a cool and KNOWLEDGABLE (finally!) doctor. 

julie and pidgey


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## Marietta (Mar 22, 2008)

*Haley wrote: *


> Yup, its 300,000 units (150k PenG Procaine and 150k PenG Benzathine). I found an online site once you could order from but the problem is Im not sure how it would be shipped and still be effective since it has to be refridgerated.



Haley, 4 years ago I bought a bottle of Bicillin from a pharmaceutical company in New York (Bicillin is not available in Europe) and they had it shipped and transported till Greece packed in an insulatedboxwrapped up indry ice. It took 3 days to be flown and delivered to me in Athens and, when I got it,the bottle was still cold and in perfect condition.

Marietta


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## bunnymommy76 (Mar 23, 2008)

Has anyone who has used the Bicillin had any problems with it? Pidgey is eating, he just seems so tired and down though, since he sarted on it. He didn't even come out of his pen today, he's just been laying around. This concerned me a little bit, just thought I would see what everyone elses experiences have been.

Julie


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## ra7751 (Mar 23, 2008)

Hi Julie,

Ask your vet about a littleinjection of B Comp. Many domestic vets don't know this little trick but we use it in wildlife quite a bit (works for me personallyfrom time to time too). It's called a "push up" and works great.

Randy


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## bunnymommy76 (Mar 29, 2008)

I took your advice Randy, when Pidge went to get his injection yesterday I asked about the B comp injection, and they were able to give it to him! It did seem to help he has been such a busy little guy today, I opened his pen around 9AM this morning and he never went in until about 4PM. This isGreat, this is more like my Pidgey, not that sleepy, lil bunny that was here all week!! 

The doctor did show me how to give the injections myself, I am a little nervous about it, I don't want to hurt him. Does anyone have any other tips about giving injections!

julie


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## mickeysmom (Mar 11, 2009)

So it is now a year later, and how is your bunny doing?

My little guy is similarly situated, so I would like to know. Mickey has been on Pen G for over two months with much improvement, but he still has the abscess (behind his eye). My vet has been supportive, but now feels we should consider surgery (and probable removal of his eye).

So you see, I would like to know your outcome.

Thanks -

Susan


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## Maureen Las (Mar 11, 2009)

I don't know the specifics of this case nor the specifics of dealing with an abscess behind the eye, however for many abscesses tx Randy has suggested a combo of drugs for tx

for ex bicillin and zithromax or bicillin and chloramaphenical ; the synergistic effect between the two drugs can sometimes knock out the infection 

by pen GI think that you mean bicillin. If your bun is improvingI wouldn't stop the meds (I am not a vet) but consider other options with drugs .


It is also possible that eventually the eye will need to be removed, however , i would consider other options first. 
I have had rabbits on bicillin for over 2 months without problems 

the issue here is that the bicillin itself may not be enough to knock ou the infection entirely.

Another thought is whether you feel that your vet is 'cutting edge" on treatment and 

possibly you may want to seek a 2nd opinion


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## ra7751 (Mar 11, 2009)

Susan,

What version of Penicillin is your vet using? And with walled off infections like that....I usually combine the Pen with either Zithromax or Chloramphenicol. I have treated some very serious abscesses in the head.....and I used this combo of drugs as a "Hail Mary" treatment due to an abscess behind an eye. Danny was being scheduled to remove the eye but this combo successfully treated the problem. And now several years later, he still has that eye. I have posted pics in several threads....I will post it here later tonight so you can see the infection.

Randy


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## mickeysmom (Mar 11, 2009)

Hi -

Actually, this is the second opinion, and the facility - Angell Memorial in Boston - is considered cutting edge. They are certainly pricey.

I don't know if the drug is actually Pen G or Bicillin. The vet referred to it as Pen G. Maybe I should try to find out.

I have been giving Mickey injections at home every other day since New Year's. Initially there was dramatic improvement but now it seems to have plateaued (not sure I spelled that right). There has been one slight improvement in the last week; Mickey's eye has stopped constantly tearing, which it had been doing since December. 

The abscess is behind his eye, and is considered inoperable except with removal of the eye.



Susan


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## mickeysmom (Mar 11, 2009)

Hi, Randy -



So is the Pen you were using this Bicillin that I see people speaking of, or was it the other Penicillin G? 

I will call now and see if the pharmacy will tell me. The vet just referred to the med as Pen G, and the vial does not specify.



Thanks -



Susan


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## bunnymommy76 (Mar 11, 2009)

Wow!! I didnt realize that it has been a year already since we started the injections! He was on the injections for about 6 months and I am happy to say that he has been abcess free since august (8 months!, Woo Hoo!)I hope your little guy has as much success as Pidge has!!!

julie & Pidgers


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## mickeysmom (Mar 11, 2009)

Thanks, Julie -

It's encouraging to hear Pidge is recovered and to learn the length of the treatment.

I checked and Mickey is actually on Bicillin (the vet/hospital staff just refer to it as Pen G). If I'm reading the postings correctly you had Pidge on Bicillin only, every other day, is that right? With a B complex to help her (Pidge is a girl, right?) at one point?



Susan


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## bunnymommy76 (Mar 11, 2009)

Thats correct, Pidge was on Bicillin every other day to begin, but I noticed that it still seemed to be growing so we ended up dong the injections every day, that really seemed to kick that abcesses bootie! HEHE

Hehe, Pidge is a boy!


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## Maureen Las (Mar 11, 2009)

Procaine pen G is shorter acting penicillin and usually would be given daily if you could not get bicillin

benzathine Gpencillin is longer acting and I am uncertain when it is given alone. 

Bicillin is procaine penicillin G 150,000 uand benzathine pencillin 150,000 uwhich is combined into 300,000 u per ml. It is sold in farm stores under names like Combi pen-48 , Dura-Pen and other similar names but the combination of the 2 penicillins in that amount of units is what matters. it is aveterinary drug sold over the counter for cattle butthis is what many people use for their rabbits. I don't know what vets use or where they get their bicillin. 
I would think that you could ask your vet about combining the drug (bicillin) with the another oral drug as mentioned by Randy as a last attempt to save the eye and shrink the abscess. 
Randy said he would post pics later of his eye abscess success rabbit from Sabrina's


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## mickeysmom (Apr 11, 2009)

Hi, again -

Well, Mickey has been having Bicillin shots every other day since New Years, and it is now April 11. The abscess has shrunk, but not in the last month. I can tell it is still there, as his third eye (eyelid) still shows. Not much change in the last two months. The only thing, is that about a month ago, his eye stopped weeping - constant tearing. Oh, yes, and his plops returned to normal after months of being these miniscule, anthracite-like pebbles that suggested dehydration to me, even though the vet said he was not dehydrated. He seems happy and eats well. But we just continue with the shots.

The vet is approving the prescriptions for a moment, but has said we should do a cat scan ($1000 I haven't got) and probably surgery ($God only knows how much, certainly at least the price of the cat scan).

I know that Pidge was Bicillin on every day, and I'm wondering if I should do the same, without the vet's input.
(She was not supportive of that idea, or of adding other meds without a cat scan).

Any advice? 

Susan


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## Maureen Las (Apr 11, 2009)

I never heard of doing bicillin daily although I did read the post bunnymommy wrote. The ideal is get a oral drug like zithromax to combine with the bicillin. 
I do know of cases here where friends of mine are self-treating with bicillin alone. The problems usually improve dramatically so that the rabbit can have a really good quality of life but not enough to actually knock the infection out. 

I would talk with your vet a little of the financial issues related to the scan (although that is the ideal course) and ask him if he will do an oral drug if you sign a waiver releasing him from responsibility. Usually randy will also talk to a vet that calls him. So you could ask your vet if she would be willing to talk to Randy to save money for your self

If not you may want to pm bunnymommy 

I think that it is aggravating that vets think we are all millionaires (just an aside)
let us know..


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## bunnymommy76 (Apr 11, 2009)

I realize every bun is different but Pidge was only on the bicillin every day no other oral meds and it did knock the infection out. I have seen no sign of this abcess since(I do check him everyday) I would try the shots everyday and see what happens. I would would not put him through surgery, Pidge had surgery the first time he had the abcess and it was aweful for him and me. That is why I opted for the bicillin when it came back. What kind of dosage are you currently giving him? If It was my bun I would try it everyday, I would never put him through surgery, it is aweful. I must admit that pidge is a strong little guy, I dont know what keeps him going he is 9yrs old, and has been through 2 surgeries, bicillin shots for 6 months, shots for mites, not to mention the ocasionally GI stasis. If Pidge can do it so can Mickey!!!


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## Maureen Las (Apr 11, 2009)

did Pidge have any Gi issues at all/ and what was the dosage you gave him and his wt. 

I'm asking out of curiousity as I usually cannot get an effective oral drug from my vet either.


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## bunnymommy76 (Apr 13, 2009)

Sorry it took me a while to wriite back, I had to find all of Pidgey's old vet bills to find his weight and dosage at that time. It looks like he weighed 4 lbs, 10 oz and we were giving him .40 CC of the bicillin. My vet was so caring and understanding about his condition she even went out of her way to get me a big 100 ML bottle of it.
Pidge really didnt have stomach problems, I would ocassionally give him some bene-bac and that seemed to help.

Good luck, you just have to be persistant with these vets.


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## kylaferg (Jun 10, 2013)

Marietta said:


> *: *
> 
> Haley, 4 years ago I bought a bottle of Bicillin from a pharmaceutical company in New York (Bicillin is not available in Europe) and they had it shipped and transported till Greece packed in an insulatedboxwrapped up indry ice. It took 3 days to be flown and delivered to me in Athens and, when I got it,the bottle was still cold and in perfect condition.
> 
> Marietta



Hi Marietta, I was just wondering where you ordered the Bicillin because it is also not available in Canada
-Kyla


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## Nikitas (Mar 27, 2014)

Hello,
I also ordered Bicillin from a California based company called tscpets.com . It took around 2 weeks to get to Greece, but the packaging was awesome and the bottle was actually still cold. I tried it today with an insulin sized needle and ended up splashing it all over my bunny's back. It has a very thick consistency (unlike the clear Pen G that I have been using for a month). I tried warming up the syringe by emersing it in a bowl of warm water for a few minutes, and it seemed to make a thinner consistency. I might end up having to dilute it with Water For Injection (Ringer's Lactated has sodium in it, so that might hurt more. Most human injections are prepared with Water For Injection anyhow, not Normal Saline or Ringer's Lactated).
My rabbit is battling with a leg abscess for over a month now. Daily Pen G worked well from the first week. She has had 2 operations already though. She was rescued with parts of her hind legs missing (looks like a birth defect, although the vet claims that it could be due to an injury). After an almost fatal GI stasis (on which she was operated on), she developed a leg abscess on on of her hind legs, from hitting it around (she was in terrible pain on the first two days of the stasis - was screaming in pain every half an hour. I still get chills remembering that). A week after lancing it and removing the thick pus, the vet had to operate on it because the bone was starting to protrude from the skin laceration. We had to get a second surgery yesterday because the stiches came off and the bone stuck out again.
Needless to say this is a very tough bunny with a strong will to live!!


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## JBun (Mar 28, 2014)

I don't know if you are needing help, but here is some info on giving penicillin injections. You don't want to warm the syringe by putting it in water, or it will no longer be sterile. You want to draw it in the syringe and let sit out for about 10 minutes(with cap on needle), or hold in your hand to warm it up. It will help too if you dilute with the lactated ringers or sterile saline. You should also ask your vet about the injections if you are having trouble with them.
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/f27/bicillin-zithromax-43096/index2.html
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/f27/having-trouble-giving-penicillin-injections-bunny-62218/
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/f22/antibiotics-13341/#p449212

Also make sure if you get the penicillin on your rabbits fur, that you thoroughly wipe it off, as you do not want your rabbit ingesting any when it grooms.

I'm so sorry about the rough time that your poor bun has had. Hopefully with the surgery and bicillin, your bun will be feeling all better soon. Best of wishes to you and your bun.


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## Chrisdoc (Mar 29, 2014)

Jenny, I was just going to post about penicilin injections and if I need to leave it out of the fridge to warm up a bit before giving it. You´ve just answered my questions. I brought the syringe from the with the correct dosage so it´s in the fridge ready for tomorrow. 

It´s been really interesting reading all this and seeing how other bunnies do. Mine was on antibiotics before the pencilin and the change has been like night and day. I would recommend pencilin jabs for treatment of abscesses to anyone, mine is coming along really well and I am hoping will eventually make a full recovery.


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## majorv (Mar 29, 2014)

When we have to give pen g we use a larger gauge needle to make it easier to draw up. We let the syringe sit out a little bit and switch to a smaller gauge needle to administer.


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## Chrisdoc (Mar 29, 2014)

The vet prepared it so it's in the syringe already. I am assuming I need to let it warm up outside the fridge before administering.


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## JBun (Mar 29, 2014)

You must have sent me a subliminal message 

You can let it sit out for a few minutes, or warm it up in your hand. I'm sure it also makes it a bit more comfortable for the bun when the med isn't cold.


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## Chrisdoc (Mar 29, 2014)

Thanks Jenny, I was just having a bit of a panic as from this thread I went to another thread where the bun died shortly after having an injection so I went into major panic about tomorrow. However, I have now calmed down a bit. I have been giving both antibiotics and metacam injections for over two weeks so the penicilin will be more or less the same. It just really upset me as I read through the whole thread and he was an adorable little bun s that upset me first, sudden losses are always so hard. Anyway, thanks everyone for the advice


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## JBun (Mar 29, 2014)

I'm sorry  But just remember all the accounts where it has helped peoples rabbits get better. 

I thought you had already been giving the pen injections? Or has the vet been giving them til now?


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## Chrisdoc (Mar 29, 2014)

Well actually the nurse has been giving them as my vet is allergic to penicilin. I've been giving the antibiotics and metacam but I suppose it's basically the same. I will let you know tomorrow.


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## Nikitas (Mar 30, 2014)

My bunny developed a sterile skin abscess on the spot of her first bicillin shot! I'm thinking on going back to Pen G daily - she had them for a month without any skin problems. I did dilute the bicillin with an equal amount of sterile Water For Injection, so I don't see what else I could do. She does have very sensitive skin in general, so maybe it varies from rabbit to rabbit. I don't think risking another painful skin abscess is worth that extra 24 hours between doses that bicillin has to offer.
Unfortunately her wound distended again yesterday and she had to get it stiched up (5th time!!!). I can't find any true rabbit-savvy vets in Athens, and I'm beginning to feel desperate


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## Chrisdoc (Mar 30, 2014)

Just done the first injection and it was tricky, took me a few times to get it in right but I did it with none getting on the fur. Second time if I have to o it should ba so much easier.


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## houserabbitz (Apr 1, 2014)

My bunny is on 2.5ccs of PenG a day; is this the same product?

http://www.tscpets.com/md-10767.html

I'm wondering if it's okay for me to order it and give her the same dose, vs. spending $50.00 every 10 days to refill?


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## houserabbitz (Apr 1, 2014)

I guess my next question is, is OTC Pen G as effective as an Rx?


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## Nikitas (Apr 2, 2014)

Pen G is Benzathene Penicillin (Benzylpenicillin). The product you were looking at is Penicillin G Benzathine plus Penicillin G Procaine (the so called bicillin). You have to speak with your vet about switching. From what I understand the main difference is that Pen G is given every 24 hours where as bicillin is given every 48 h (I don't know if they have differences in the distribution of the drug in the organism or their effect on the outcome). Keep in mind that bicillin is thick and white and is more difficult to administer to your rabbit.
OTC bicillin should be as effective as a prescription one, you shouldn't worry about that.


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## JBun (Apr 2, 2014)

It depends on what type of penicillin you have. With giving daily injections, it's likely what you are using is pen g procaine, as this is the one most often used that requires daily injections. You will need to either check your bottle or ask your vet. The one on that website is a combination penicillin with pen g procaine *and benzathine*, which is considered a long acting penicillin so doesn't need to be given daily. But if you do get this and it is different than what you have been giving so far, because it is pen g procaine/benzathine and not just regular pen g procaine, the dosage frequency and amount is going to be different, so you will need to get the new dosage info from your vet. As mentioned, the pen g procaine/benzathine is also thicker, and some people find the injections a little more difficult to give. If you are wanting to give this and want to go by the info in the bicillin study, then you will also need to bring this up with your vet, as the dosage amount and frequency in the study, may be different than what your vet would normally prescribe.
http://people.umass.edu/~jwmoore/bicillin/bicillin.htm

OTC pen g is the same as getting it from prescription. Pen g is a common antibiotic used with livestock animals, which is why it is available otc, at least in the US. Getting it otc is fine as long as they package it correctly and it is cold shipped. You may also be able to just pick up a bottle from a local feed store near you. It is usually much cheaper than buying directly from the vet. If you want to stick with giving the pen g procaine, you can also get that otc, which would also be much cheaper for you.


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## Chrisdoc (Apr 2, 2014)

Jenny I am actually pretty certain that Bandy is on the bicilin injections every 72 hours, the liquid is thick white and as quite difficult to inject. I think he's on 0.6ml and he weighs about 1.850 kg at the moment. I was looking at the bottle this morning and it is slow acting Shorapen by Verbac. It is all very confusing, I am so glad it is the vet worrying about all this and not me.


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