# Clarification on "meat breeding" and this forum



## TinysMom (Dec 8, 2010)

I want to take a moment to address an issue that sometimes comes up - particularly here in the rabbitry.

As a forum - we welcome breeders of all kinds - we're here to help the inexperienced rabbit breeders, the experienced breeders - and even the "meat" breeders.

This does NOT mean that we allow discussions about meat breeding - but sometimes a person will mention it in their intro or in a thread...and a moderator will contact them and explain our stand. They're still welcome here to talk about raising rabbits - as long as they don't discuss their particular purposes for raising rabbits.

I recently saw a thread though where the responses to the person who originally posted were "out of line" with our additional forum policies. So I thought I would take a moment to post those policies for y'all here.

From our forum decorum recommendations:

*Unacceptable Behavior (Subject toWarnings):*

- name calling

- ridiculing of another's opinion

- failure to 'agree to disagree'

- the posting of obviously inflammatorytopics (eg: rabbit meat, breeder vs.animal rights attacks) 

- overly abrasive or negative posts on any topic

- personal vendettas

- 'advertising' or linking other forums or commercialventuresin posts (see Content Rulesfor advertising policies)

​You can find the full listing here.

In the future - if you see someone refer to "meat breeding" - please just stay quiet and wait for a moderator to enter the discussion and do the moderating that is necessary.

As a final reminder - one of the rules I try to ask our members in this section to go by is....."*If you can't say something nice....don't say anything at all."* 

To those who were quiet and waited for a moderator - thanks so much.

Remember - our policy is we will help any breeder and any rabbit - even meat rabbits....and the person was asking for help in avoiding mastitis.


----------



## Purple Mountain Rabbitry (Dec 8, 2010)

To whom it may concern;

I just want to formally appologize to everyone. My statements while informative were out of line. I allowed my hot headed temper to get out of hand along with my mouth and it was unacceptable. I ask forgiveness of everyone I may have offended and offer my sincerest appologies.

I would also like to offer my appologies to maxysmummy (I hope this is correct) I understand your opinion and should have agreed to disagree instead of arguing. I also should have talked to you privately instead of bringing it onto the forum. I hope that we can agree to disagree and let by gones be by gones and move past this and be friends as weboth desprately love our rabbits.

I would also like to offermy appologies to fogcity, while I pmed you and offered my help, I should not have provoked a fight on your post. Beyond offering my help to you I should have kept my mouth shut and let a moderator handle it. But as it is I did notand my behavior was unacceptable and for that I sincerely appologize.

Last but certainly not least I would like to offer my appologies to the Moderators and Owner of the site. My statements were out of line and very unacceptable, especially since I have been warned before that raising rabits for meat is a touchy subject and isbetter not discussed. I should have known better, but I allowed my temper to get the best of me. I sincerely appologize for my behavior and promise to not repeat todays mistakes should the subject arise again.

Sincerely,

Crystal


----------



## Nela (Dec 8, 2010)

It's easier to act impulsively than to wait until we've cooled down. I for one am guilty of that. Lol. We're all human. Just need to learn from it. I need a few lessons, I'm a slow learner... 

:rose::hug2:


----------



## Flash Gordon (Dec 8, 2010)

Crystal i was totally with u on ur posts,but i wasnt about to open my mouth ,,it always gets me in trouble.....i do understand that some people are meat breeders and they need RO too but it just hurts to think about what they do.....Crystal kudos to u for steppin up and apologizing.that took some danglers....


----------



## AngelnSnuffy (Dec 8, 2010)

First of all I want to thank Peg for posting that and including the "forum rules". Your prospective is great, one that newcomers can/will respect.


Thank you Crystal for understanding it all and thank you for that wonderful post here.

I did not see your posts in reference, don't want to. But that is what a mature person that doesn't agree w/ something does, bypass it. It goes on, certain things are ok here, and you have to decide for yourself, what you will tolerate in taking part in, that's all.

Oh, I want to add that Sas even regretted seeing something tonight, just an example of choices. Can't blame the person for posting if within guidelines and warnings...


----------



## maxysmummy (Dec 8, 2010)

to be honest, i think me saying that she should probably find another forum and adding in "boo hiss" were completely within reason.

does she not understand how many rabbit LOVERS would be disturbed to hear about how best to breed rabbits prime for murder and consumption?

I think her thread was far more disturbing to me and others than my "boo hiss" was to her.


----------



## AngelnSnuffy (Dec 8, 2010)

*maxysmummy wrote: *


> to be honest, i think me saying that she should probably find another forum and adding in "boo hiss" were completely within reason.
> 
> does she not understand how many rabbit LOVERS would be disturbed to hear about how best to breed rabbits prime for murder and consumption?
> 
> I think her thread was far more disturbing to me and others than my "boo hiss" was to her.


wasn't it removed? The best we can do is make guidelines, keep people in line, we're not babysitters, but if you point something out to us, we take care of it the best and most efficiently we can. But again, it's up to you to view certain things, I wouldn't. But maybe we need to revamp the guidelines.
:wink


----------



## Flash Gordon (Dec 8, 2010)

whoops looks like i confused a few people...hm...i was with whoever was Booing and hissing...i have no idea what Crystal is apologizing for ..but kudos to u anyways for the professional apology..very big of you...

im out of here before i get in trouble....


----------



## AngelnSnuffy (Dec 8, 2010)

*Flash Gordon wrote: *


> whoops looks like i confused a few people...hm...i was with whoever was Booing and hissing...i have no idea what Crystal is apologizing for ..but kudos to u anyways for the professional apology..very big of you...
> 
> im out of here before i get in trouble....


maxymommy did the boo hissing.


----------



## Nela (Dec 8, 2010)

Lol to be honest, I think the 'boo hiss' was perfectly within 'acceptable behaviour' except that the forum doesn't necessarily chase people off for breeding for meat I actually had a good laugh and had meant to compliment you because you reacted in a way that was quite mild compared to how most would have reacted. 

I think the issues were mostly with what followed after, being that it became more of an argument and really didn't help the original poster much. I have seen the mods acting very swiftly to reduce the arguing on the boards and I think that's probably what they were more focussed on as well as removing the original post so that it didn't cause further issues down the line. 

I can imagine the original poster was PM'd and welcomed to the forum but asked that the 'meat' aspect be kept more toned down as to not make it harder for members to help. I don't think any of us get excited at the thought of meat rabbits but we do still want to help when we can so that rabbits don't suffer needlessly either way. I think it would be the same if a lab worker came to ask for advice. Personally, it's one of the reasons I came back to RO. It's something I strongly believe in.


Edited to add: I had meant to step in to say that meat breeders weren't necessarily banned from the forum but I couldn't work outthe forum rules since the 'meat rabbits' was under unacceptable behaviour. Maybe in the future, this can be somewhat further elaborated so members know more about the forum policies on the matter?


----------



## AngelnSnuffy (Dec 8, 2010)

I like that Soph! Good post. I just tune out from the meat aspect, I don't even let it enter my mind, but I can comment and be like a country girl at the same time.


----------



## maxysmummy (Dec 8, 2010)

i know i'm a newcomer to the forum but i really do think that it should be in the rules that no meat breeding discussion should be allowed.

i mean, i came to this website, we have a 'rainbow bridge' section to mourn all rabbits that unfortunately do pass, there are cute pictures of bunnies everywhere and its hardly necessary, if you want to talk about meat breeding join an appropriate forum. it's not like anyone prys into anyone elses personal life, she could have simply asked the mastitis question without making reference to the fact the rabbits would soon be food. it should really be a Dont Ask Don't Tell policy... we all know what goes on, its just hurtful to see it plainly.


----------



## AngelnSnuffy (Dec 8, 2010)

*maxysmummy wrote: *


> i know i'm a newcomer to the forum but i really do think that it should be in the rules that no meat breeding discussion should be allowed.
> 
> i mean, i came to this website, we have a 'rainbow bridge' section to mourn all rabbits that unfortunately do pass, there are cute pictures of bunnies everywhere and its hardly necessary, if you want to talk about meat breeding join an appropriate forum. it's not like anyone prys into anyone elses personal life, she could have simply asked the mastitis question without making reference to the fact the rabbits would soon be food. it should really be a Dont Ask Don't Tell policy... we all know what goes on, its just hurtful to see it plainly.


Don't worry, I know, we understand you, it's all good.


----------



## jcottonl02 (Dec 8, 2010)

I definately think clarification needs to be done. It's quite a grey area as said before so I think we need set rules specifically WHERE this talk will be allowed, if it is allowed.

Personally I don't see any problem with meat breeding rabbits. It's the same as any other meat industry. I will be getting pet chickens soon- doesn't mean I will stop eating chicken and lash out at anyone else who does and say they are sickening. 

If someone doesn't like it then that's absolutely fair, but raising rabbits for meat is not evil nor is it sick...as long as the animals (like ALL meat animals) are raised in healthy, happy and humane conditions, then it's each to his own personal opinion on which animals are 'good' enough to be eaten. Rabbits are not 'better' than chickens as animals, so why is it okay to eat them and not rabbits? 

I personally think we should all put our fiery efforts into sorting out the inhumane and dispicably cruel conditions that chickens and some pigs etc. are kept in, but that is just my own opinion.

I obviously understand the situation that on this site this is really for pet rabbits, so here the 'meat' talk might not be very appropriate- I am just saying in general to some of the comments I have seen.

Jen


----------



## mewlingcricket (Dec 8, 2010)

Would it be possible to put a category on for those breeding for meat, where they could not only talk to each other, but those breeders who felt comfortable helping could go in and do so. Those who are uncomfortable with the topic could be asked to either refrain from entering that section, or be asked not to express opinions, much as those of us in the rabbitry/show category ask not to be judged and ridiculed for breeding when there are so many rabbits in shelters. :?

I chose to raise rabbits to love, to show, to help better the breeds, and for pets. I do not kill my rabbits, and hope that I am not put in a posistion where I have to. Although I understand that when you raise animals sometimes things happen where the most humane thing to do is to euthanize the animal. That being said, I do understand that meat rabbit breeding is a necessary "evil". People like rabbit meat, just as they like turkey, chicken, pig, cow. And yes, there are quite a few people who feel that pigs and chickens are such great pets that it is cruel to use them for food, but it is life. We don't always have to agree.

Just an opinion. Agree, disagree I won't be mad :big wink: Have a great week everyone.

Tiffany


----------



## Pipp (Dec 8, 2010)

Honestly? I don't even want to see the word 'm**t' on this forum. 

And it is a 'don't ask, don't tell' policy. 

Thanks to the Mods for their great posts, and thanks to the members for keeping the discussion reasonable and approaching it like grown ups. An Internet rarity.  



sas :bunnydance:


----------



## Nela (Dec 8, 2010)

Lol well thatDOES clarify it  Okies then :biggrin:


----------



## OakRidgeRabbits (Dec 8, 2010)

*maxysmummy wrote: *


> does she not understand how many rabbit LOVERS would be disturbed to hear about how best to breed rabbits prime for murder and consumption?


I didn't see the posts or what went on, but I just wanted to add right here that while there may be exceptions out there, many/most people who are raising rabbits (for ANY purpose) also love their rabbits and put a lot of time and resources into their care. Just like you do for your pet bunnies.

I am sorry that you are offended by those who raise animals for consumption, but I hope that you will also recognize that this comment is equally as offensive to those breeders as their comments were to you. I agree that the majority of people on this forum are pet owners, so it would be disrespectful to have in-depth topics about rabbits for other uses. But since you are asking someone to respect your lifestyle with rabbits, please respect theirs as well. That way, we can all get along happily even if we are from different "hops of life".


----------



## jcottonl02 (Dec 8, 2010)

*Pipp wrote: *


> Honestly? I don't even want to see the word 'm**t' on this forum.
> 
> And it is a 'don't ask, don't tell' policy.
> 
> ...


That's fine. We just need some set rules. And we need some warnings before peple actually come ONTO the site. Because it's not fair that a meat breeder comes here 'rabbits online' just....about rabbits to anyone looking at it, that they come here and get attacked really. For having done nothing wrong.

What I would like to ask though, is that we would refuse help to those meat breeders who want to better the life of their meat rabbits? They are here to get help just as much as we are...but instead we will turn them away for the industry they are in, when we will all sit down with our christmas turkeys and not be disgusted because turkeys are living creatures to etc.

Just a thought really. Even though some people hate the rabbit meat industry (fair enough of course), surely you would want to better that industry for the sake of the rabbits even if it still exists?

Jen


----------



## Purple Mountain Rabbitry (Dec 8, 2010)

My parents have always taught me that if i do something wrong that i should appologise. If i was not in the wrong i would not have appologised but as it is i was very in the wrong and i appologised. I have been told that a professional appology is always the best route to go. Imo it says so much more than just saying im sorry. 
I just want to say again that i am sorry and will abide by the rules.
Crystal


----------



## FogCity (Dec 8, 2010)

Well I certainly didn't mean to cause such a disturbance. I will share my thoughts on the subject and then be a productive and friendly member of your wonderful forum.


1. Unless you get your rabbits from a shelter, don't wear leather, and and are a vegetarian, you are supporting the production of rabbit meat or the slaughtering of animals in general in one way or another. The abuse that happens to dairy cows, for example, (and I am pretty sure almost 99% of the people on this forum drink milk) is much more hideous and horrible then anything I do. What do you think your dog and cat food is made of?

2. People who raise rabbits for meat care a lot about their rabbits. I spend hours a day with my rabbits, spend lots of money to take care of them and I support 4H and other organizations that support and help develop our future rabbit and livestock breeders. Meat raisers also know a lot about rabbits and have good information to share.

3. I totally understand that some people don't want to hear about it, and I respect that, but again, see point #1.

4. I was not upset by the "boo hiss" comment, people have said much worse things to me. 

And really, think about this, the person that posted that comment, wrote in a post a couple months ago...

"Thanks I'll breed them Monday, as I am going hunting tomorrow." 

Really, really, you are going *HUNTING* and you are getting on my case...seriously.

I hunt too, and I am sure that you care for and admire the animals you hunt, I am sure you want them to be around for a long time, and would not want to see them tortured. I'm the same way with rabbits. Can we get along now? 

5. Perhaps explaining myself a little may help a little. People eat meat, I eat meat. Meat that comes from factory farms, the majority of the meat in this county, subjects animals to cruel and inhuman torture. It deeply upsets me to see what happens to the food on our dinner plates before it gets there. Not to mention the destruction of land and natural resources. I raise rabbits because it is good for the environment and it is healthy. I would rather feed my children good, organic, healthy food that comes from my backyard then anything that comes from the store. Raising rabbits for meat with my children teaches them about responsibility, where food comes from, and I hope will contribute to them being more conscious of the impact their habits can have on the rest of the world.


6. That being said, I will never again mention "meat" on this site and I look forward to learning and sharing knowledge with the rest of you.


----------



## TinysMom (Dec 8, 2010)

As a moderator - I am going to try and share my perspective and hope I don't offend folks (which means I probably WILL offend someone).

What bugs me the most is that when someone comes on here and mentions the whole topic....the folks who are members start responding to it and attacking that person (who may not know).

I promise you - moderators are on here a lot - we'll catch the post - and if we don't - instead of writing in the thread - drop a pm to a moderator and ask us to step into the thread and handle it. We'll lock the thread- contact the original poster and explain our rules - and go from there.

Or if you HAVE to post in the thread - I wish someone would come in and post something like "I know discussions of meat breeding are not allowed on the forum. I suggest we wait for a moderator to handle this." and then pm a moderator.

For me - it is the "cleanup" of going through all of the remarks by our members that makes this whole thing messy and upsetting - usually the breeder who posted will reply back with "thanks - I didn't know...I won't mention it again".

Just my .02 - for free.


----------



## irishbunny (Dec 8, 2010)

I agree with Jen's posts.

It is much easier just to not read or reply to threads that upset you. If you can offer some friendly advice do that, but getting hot headed gets you no where. When I first joined this forum, if I got angry reading a thread or annoyed I'd let them know I was in my post but I learned not to do that and it makes the forum way more enjoyable, and you get your advice or opinion across way easier when being polite and friendly.


----------



## Purple Mountain Rabbitry (Dec 8, 2010)

*FogCity wrote: *


> 4. I was not upset by the "boo hiss" comment, people have said much worse things to me.
> 
> And really, think about this, the person that posted that comment, wrote in a post a couple months ago...
> 
> ...



I totally agree with you.

however the hunting quote you have is mine. I never once attacked you or I didn't mean it to come across that way as it may have. I was supporting you. and I didn't write "boo hiss" maxysmummy did, your mixing us up.

peg and irishbunny i agree with both of you. peg if i do see a post like that again i will post that and let you or one of the other mods know right away.

Crystal


----------



## FogCity (Dec 8, 2010)

Sorry Crystal. I got you mixed up. In fact it is all one big mix up. Lets just be one happy family.


----------



## Purple Mountain Rabbitry (Dec 8, 2010)

I agree competely

Crystal


----------



## farmerchick (Dec 8, 2010)

why can't there be a seperate section just for meat breeding? similar to the rabbitry section on here, there are people who are on here who rabbits are just pets to them and they do not breed or show, there are ppl on here who enjoy breeding and showing rabbits that pet owners don't nessisarly agree about but still go on the forum to ask questions about breeds? 

why can't there be a meat forum and if its something you don't want to hear about don't go to it, but if you have questions, or if meat rabbit owners have pet/rabbitry questions they can go to the appropriate forum. but i don't agree with discussion of animal abuse. and by abuse i don't mean what some people would view as abuse when you have to put down the animal in the end humanely...

just my two cents....


----------



## OakRidgeRabbits (Dec 8, 2010)

*farmerchick wrote: *


> why can't there be a seperate section just for meat breeding? similar to the rabbitry section on here, there are people who are on here who rabbits are just pets to them and they do not breed or show, there are ppl on here who enjoy breeding and showing rabbits that pet owners don't nessisarly agree about but still go on the forum to ask questions about breeds?
> 
> why can't there be a meat forum and if its something you don't want to hear about don't go to it, but if you have questions, or if meat rabbit owners have pet/rabbitry questions they can go to the appropriate forum.


This is entirely up to the mods of the forum, of course. But I think it may be a nice consideration. It would allow even more rabbit people to the forum. Diversity, in any situation, is an excellent thing because everyone brings something different to the table.

When a forum consists of a large group of people with the same exact thoughts, opinions, and interests, it can become pretty limiting. Like someone mentioned previously, even breeders in the meat industry love their animals and want to do the best they can by them. They also have a lot of knowledge of rabbit growth, development, nutrition, etc. We all have a lot to contribute to the forum. And allowing that diversity could strengthen the forum so much and help that many more people!

I don't think that means that we need to discuss graphic processing ideas or anything, by no means. But things like breeding for an overall more productive market rabbit or how to condition a market rabbit, etc...I don't know, that seems pretty harmless to me. And by having a separate forum, those who do not wish to read or participate in that type of discussion would know not to enter there. Because I agree it would be upsetting for a pet owner to just happen upon a topic about that. But having them all in one place would account for no surprises.

Anyhoo, just an idea. I'm sure it's difficult to run a forum with so many different groups on it- pet, show, breeding, etc. So it's up to the mods and what they think will work smoothly.


----------



## Flash Gordon (Dec 8, 2010)

when i came on this forum it was a little tough for me to adapt cuz im from Bunspace ...u know the one that doesnt allow even breeders to be there...so this is a very dif forum but i learn more from here then i ever did from Bunspace..i still frequent bunspace cuz it can be fun and i have friends on their but this is the place i go for accurate info ..cuz ..the breeders and meaters are the ones that have had rabbits wayyy longer then us pet owners and they know rabbits...
were gonna have clashes on this forum its just inevitable with having so many dif ideas about rabbits ...i think mods do a good job on catching it and fixing it tho...and mods have to understand that some people act out on emotion which is understandable when they have so much love for their bun ..so go easy on them they mean well....
and meaters should know it can be a touchy subject anywhere.


----------



## Nancy McClelland (Dec 8, 2010)

Kung Fu Tzu wrote a couple of millenia ago that "it is better to keep one's moth closed and be thought a fool, than to speak and confirm it". Think before you talk. Voltaire once said, "I may not agree with your opinion, but I will defend to the death your right to have it". Both very wise people. When I was a child a long time ago, we had rabbits, chickens, pigeons and a huge 2 acre "garden"--all for consumption. In my younger days, I was an avid backpacker, hunter and fisherman--sometimes covering up to 50 miles in a day and being so far out in the wilderness that we'd see no one for a couple of weeks. Everyone has a right to their thoughts and opinions, but no right to be rude to anyone else. I was upset a little while back and snapped off a reply in a nice way and suggested that the person read and comprehend my post even before a "mod" picked up the problem--I also got a PM with an apology as well as a public one on my post. Civility should always come first--otherwise you are liable to be the recipient of a deviated septum and rightly so. This is just like the Television--if it is upsetting to you, don't look at it. Simple!


----------



## fuzz16 (Dec 8, 2010)

i give kudos for the person attempting to take good care of his rabbits and keeping them healthy...there are pet owners out there who are a lot more abusive and worse than meat breeders. 

we as humans do what we do to survive. i grew up raising chickens, turkey, quail, and rabbits. if you see videos of what is in your meat...you may want to raise your own food too. 

try the meatrix.com if you want to find out why raising your own meat is so much better than buying food...healthier for your family too...our future


----------



## TinysMom (Dec 8, 2010)

*farmerchick wrote: *


> *why can't there be a seperate section just for meat breeding? similar to the rabbitry section on here,* there are people who are on here who rabbits are just pets to them and they do not breed or show, there are ppl on here who enjoy breeding and showing rabbits that pet owners don't nessisarly agree about but still go on the forum to ask questions about breeds?
> 
> why can't there be a meat forum and if its something you don't want to hear about don't go to it, but if you have questions, or if meat rabbit owners have pet/rabbitry questions they can go to the appropriate forum. but i don't agree with discussion of animal abuse. and by abuse i don't mean what some people would view as abuse when you have to put down the animal in the end humanely...
> 
> just my two cents....


We have discussed this time and time and time again. My personal take on this are that there are two main reasons that this is not done.

First - meat breeding/eating goes against the principles of certain people on the forum (aka "the owners") and they don't want this. Hey...they pay the bills - I understand that.

Secondly - our forum resources are only so much - for space, time, etc. 

Considering all of the problems we have with the rabbitry forum from members who come in here and are upset about our breeding, etc. - I am ok with us not having a meat breeder forum. (By the way - we do know of some forums that we can send them to).


----------



## Shaded Night Rabbitry (Dec 8, 2010)

*TinysMom wrote:*


> Considering all of the problems we have with the rabbitry forum from members who come in here and are upset about our breeding, etc. - I am ok with us not having a meat breeder forum. (By the way - we do know of some forums that we can send them to).


Problem with these other forums are the only one that's /really/ active... I absolutely cannot stand, because the people on it are stupid and ignorant. However, if you would like to PM me the links in case I've missed a forum, please do so.


----------



## missyscove (Dec 9, 2010)

One thing I've always appreciated about this forum is the way that pet owners, rescues and breeders can all work together for what's best for the rabbits. I think collaboration is really key here. I'm an animal science major which means that a lot of what I'm studying is how to grow better animals for human consumption. I recall once posting a link to a really informative paper on rabbit nutrition and another member refusing to continue reading once they saw the mention of meat rabbits. There were no graphic descriptions of anything, just a mention that proper nutrition could maximize meat production. I was shocked that someone would not want to glean information from every existing source to better the care of their own rabbits. 
I hope that we can all continue to collaborate as we have in the past and, as far as I can tell, our "don't ask, don't tell" approach to meat breeding is working well. We all have so much that we can learn from eachother and I would hate to scare away anyone with valuable information to offer.


----------

