# Are you vegetarian? ..or vegan?



## nicolevins (Jan 16, 2010)

Hey everyone.

Last week I have saw some really horrible videos of animal slaughter on YouTube and a documentary on TV. The videos are really horrible. It made me think some more about caring for animals and that they have emotions and feelings too! A boy(well, man, lol) on YouTube called Greg (A.K.A Onision)

[align=center]>> CLICK HERE FOR ONISION'S YOUTUBE<<
GO TO HIS VEGETARIANISM/ANIMAL RIGHTS VIDEOS[/align]
[align=left]His videos on Vegetarianism and Animal rights are very touching and made me realise how important these animals are and that they have feelings - they care about their family too. They have alot of the emotions as we do.[/align]
[align=left]Well, I care about my pets and I wouldn't like them to be killed for someones dinner - the thoughts of it make me sick. I care about my family and I wouldn't like them to be killed for someone to eat (as it was proven that human flesh tastes like pork).[/align]
[align=left]A week ago, I saw the videos and pictures so right there and then I decided I was going to become a vegetarian. I had to 'wean' myself off the meat and dairy.[/align]
[align=left]I am now a proud vegetarian :biggrin2:[/align]
[align=left]Although my family and friends don't support me and disagree with me....[/align]


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## missyscove (Jan 16, 2010)

If I could be a carnivore, I would be one. 
For an interesting perspective on whether or not it's nutritionally possible for a human to be a carnivore, read this
http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.com/2009/09/two-brave-men-who-ate-nothing-but-meat.html

I'm in my second year as an animal science major and a lot of people hear that I'm studying animal science and assume I'm a vegetarian. Then I surprise then my telling them that my major is mostly focused on production animal systems (dairy, beef, poultry, swine, eggs, etc.) and that I'm entirely for it. I've seen first hand the facilities where my food is raised and that only makes me want to eat more of it. I even got to take a field trip to a veal grower and as a result, I make a conscious effort to consume more veal than I did before, because I recognize that as long as people are drinking milk, veal is one of the most sustainable meats we have, and I do love my milk (though I swear Cornell milk is better than the milk I drink at home, probably because I drink it fresher and of course the cows have different diets.)

Basically, yeah, people can put whatever they want on the internet, but in my opinion, there aren't enough people showing the positive sides of agriculture on the internet, just people who find a single flaw, a single bad farm, and monopolize on it. 

It's important to realize that unhappy, stressed animals aren't productive, so it's in the farmer's best interest to cater to the animal's best interest. Well cared for cows produce more milk per cow as well as per unit of feed. If an animal is stressed before it is slaughtered, they will release certain chemicals which will reduce the quality of the carcass. (I know a lot of people just don't like words like slaughter and carcass. If you use a word like harvest instead of slaughter, people don't get nearly as upset and defensive.)
For a pro meat perspective, this http://www.grandin.com/ is Dr. Temple Grandin's website. She's autistic and has a really interesting perspective on the topic. She'll walk through the chutes and discover things that are stressing the animals that others might not. She is a professor at Colorado State University, but she also gives a lot of guest lectures at Cornell and I've heard her speak; it's really interesting.


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## Mrs. PBJ (Jan 16, 2010)

I like meat way to much. To not eat it the only thing i really dont eat very offen is pork because it make me sick if not cooked a certain way so the only time I eat it is if i cook it. 

But I eat beef and chicken and turkey. And fish and such.


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## nicolevins (Jan 16, 2010)

Thanks for posting, just want to hear everyones opinions and thoughts on the subject


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## BethM (Jan 16, 2010)

I stopped eating meat in October of last year. I still eat eggs and dairy, as well as fish. So I guess that qualifies me as a "pescatarian."

For my whole life, I could never stand eating any sort of meat that had bone or gristle or lumps of fat attached, it just always grossed me out. I also never cared much for pork, and I always found dark meat chicken or turkey to just taste nasty.

For many years, I mainly stuck to lean beef and boneless-skinless chicken breast. Over time, though, I really came to understand how unsustainable this is, and utterly wasteful. An animal died for my meal, and I am throwing away 90% of it? Still, the rest either didn't taste good to me or grossed me out. So, over time, I just reduced the amount of meat I was eating, the last couple years I was only eating it 2 meals a week, maximum.

I have always been a HUGE fan of all kinds of vegetables and fruits, so eating more of them is not any kind of hardship for me, LOL! Even before I stopped eating birds and mammals, I could happily have a meal of rice and veggies, or all veggies, or just mashed potatoes, it all makes me happy! I have also always loved tofu, not simply as a "meat replacement," but as a food in it's own right.

In the past few years, I have become more aware of large-scale animal operations, and how disgusting they are. I have no problem with smaller-scale farms, where the animals are raised with respect. I have no issue with the biological fact that humans can digest meat, and have evolved eating meat. I just don't believe we need to be eating as much meat as we do, and there is no reason there has to be so much inexpensive meat available. I also don't believe cows have any business eating corn, which they are not evolved to eat. I also don't like eating all the antibiotics and other stuff that is fed to animals. 

I think these issues were the final thing for me, along with one other issue.....When I got rabbits as pets, I started getting people commenting on eating them. These rabbits are a part of my family, I love them dearly, and it is an absolute insult for anyone to speak of eating them. I don't talk about eating anyone's dog or cat! It made me think that I don't really have a right to choose which animal qualifies as a pet or as food. 

I will say that food quality, in general, is important to me. I try to avoid processed foods (though there are a few things I still like), and I read the ingredients of everything I buy and I will not purchase anything with certain chemical additives, or with too many ingredients. I prefer making meals with "whole" foods. 
I try to support local small farmers. I buy milk, cream, and butter from a small dairy that only sells locally, and treats their cows well. It's more expensive, but also MUCH more delicious, than the mass-market stuff, so I think it's worth it. 
I shop at the farmer's market, and I buy organic and local fruits/veggies whenever I can. Since I have a large yard now, I am going to put in a garden next spring.
I do not buy mass-market cheese, and prefer to stick to smaller labels, or European cheeses. My favorites right now are an English Cheddar, and a Dutch Gouda.

So that's it. I think I've always preferred non-meat over meat, and it just took a few issues for me to switch over.


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## Sabine (Jan 16, 2010)

I personally could probably survive on a vegetarian diet if I put my mind to it but having a large family with three teenage boys, some picky eaters and a man with a rather large appetite it is not really an option.
Eating meat is just more convenient for a family. I do try and buy from local farmers as often as I can but admittedly their products often cost twice as much as in the local supermarket but usually taste better.
I absolutely hate the pork sold in supermarkets. I swear it tastes of fish although my family vehemently deny it. I don't mind fish but I don't want my pork to taste like it. I expect they feed the pigs loads of fishmeal to fatten them up.
Part of me thinks I probably shouldn't eat what I'm not prepared to kill. And I do find it offputting if the piece of meat resembles the part of the animal too much.
I can't stand it having a whole fish plonked in front of my plate with the eye staring at me. Yikes - I very much like it filleted.
I probably should serve at least one vegetarian meal a week but I remember the last time I suggested it David made quite a long face so I dropped the subject.


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## slavetoabunny (Jan 16, 2010)

I am a pescatarian...I eat fish, shellfish and dairy. I have been successful on this diet for a little over 3 years now. I love it. Lots of yummy options!!


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## Bassetluv (Jan 16, 2010)

I didn't even know there was a name for it, but I guess I'd be a pescatarian too. I still have dairy (eggs and cheese, mostly) and will eat fish on occasion. I had been raised on the standard North American diet: chicken, steak, pork roast on Sunday, and must admit that I've always loved the taste of meat. A broiled steak or a pot roast, or chicken with a cream sauce was so sumptuous to me (and I was a long-standing KFC fan...after all, it's finger-lickin' good); but over the years, as I've gotten older, I just began to feel too guilty about it. I'd look at my pets, recognizing all of their idiosyncrasies, identifying all of their personality quirks, knowing that each of them had their own wants, fears, and that each of them valued their own life...and I just couldn't pretend that cows, chickens, and pigs did not. So I decided that in my own small way, I'd no longer support the meat industry. The only reason I still include seafood and dairy in my diet is for personal health...and who knows, maybe someday I'll explore cutting back on that as well. 

However, I won't ever tell anyone what is right or wrong with regard to diet and vegetarianism vs. omnivorism (Is that a word?) I do what I think is right for me, and others will choose for themselves what is right. :hug:


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## Happi Bun (Jan 16, 2010)

I'm making the transition to a completely vegetarian diet. I have to do it slowly otherwise it makes my digestive tract a mess. I've decided to be lacto-ovo-vegetarian meaning I still consume dairy products and eggs, humanley raised. I'm doing it because I want to look at my animal friends in peace knowing that I'm no longer eating their flesh.


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## slavetoabunny (Jan 16, 2010)

I have to admit that my motive for converting to my current diet was not my love for our furred friends. It was geared more towards my aging digestive system. Whatever my inspiration, I am content.


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## paul2641 (Jan 16, 2010)

Last night while walking home from the pet store I got thinking about how it is kinda wrong to eat meats, I had a long argument, The thing is I love meat I really do, But lately not as much as before, As mam has food poisoned me alot lately because of poor attendance to the dinner, So I'm slowly going off meats, The only dairy product I like is cheese and I eat that melted with meat so I suppose I could lay of dairy products too but I don't think it is something I could do while living at home as my mother wouldn't be prepared to give me an suitable diet.

Then another thing stopping me is I want to be a chef when I'm older and obviously I'm more then likely going to have to cook meat, So is there really much point laying off the stuff If I'm cooking it multiple times a day.

Something I'm gonna have to put alot more time into before I decided to give up anything.


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## nicolevins (Jan 16, 2010)

Thanks for sharing your opinions with me everyone


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## degrassi (Jan 16, 2010)

I dont' really have much to comment on this subject other then everyone is free to make their own decisions related to what they choose to put into their own body. The only time I have an issue is when people comment on what others choose. If you are a veg, thats fine, I won't get you to eat meat. If I eat meat, dont' try to convert me to stop. 

Anyhoo,I just thought i'd share that I just watched a great documentary about the fishing industry and its sustainability. Its called "end of the line" http://endoftheline.com/ You can rent it at blockbuster.

As a fish avid fish hobbyist, I'm always concerned about the practices surrounding fish and thought this documentary was a great start to get people thinking about where their fish are coming from. People are always concerned about meat(aka beef, chicken, veal egg) practices but you dont' hear too much about the over fishing issues, farm vs wild fish etc. The doc. doesn't tell you to stop eating fish but informs you on the fishing practices and gives you tips on how to make better choices when buying fish at the store or restaurants. If you like documentaries i'd suggest checking it out.


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## BethM (Jan 16, 2010)

Valerie, I haven't seen this documentary, but I carry the Monterey Bay Aquarium Seafood Watch guide when I'm buying fish at the store or a restaurant.
I used to have a printed one, but I recently found that the info is all available in a free iPhone app, so now I use that.


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## missyscove (Jan 17, 2010)

*BethM wrote: *


> Valerie, I haven't seen this documentary, but I carry the Monterey Bay Aquarium Seafood Watch guide when I'm buying fish at the store or a restaurant.
> I used to have a printed one, but I recently found that the info is all available in a free iPhone app, so now I use that.


One girl in my oral communication class gave a great speech on how to use that guide and gave one to each of us. I don't like the taste of any seafood except for canned tuna, so I passed mine on to a friend who does per her suggestion.


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## undergunfire (Jan 17, 2010)

I am totally meat free and have been for quite a few months now. Let's just say I feel better then ever before....body and mind.

I always hated meat, secretly...I guess. I'd never eat pork or fish, rarely beef, I'd mainly just eat chicken or like pepperoni on pizza...things like that. The only time I could ever eat meat was if it was burnt or heavily seasoned/drenched with ranch or bbq....it had been that way for the past 5 years.

So, months ago I had finally just decided to kick the nasty habit! The thought of eating meat right now sounds absolutely sickening. I can't even watch people eat meat anymore...it churns my stomach. I honestly just can't begin to explain how great I feel. Sometimes it really is hard finding recipes because I am very picky....but I get by.

I don't think I will ever go vegan...mainly because I think it would take a lot of work....and you really are giving up a ton of options. I hate cooking and vegan-ism seams like you need to cook a lot. You also have to know all the things that animal product is in....things like marshmallows even!! I like milk and I like eggs. I don't think there is anything wrong with them if you are buying organic. 

Hopefully in a few months I can afford to start shopping at the natural foods store....I think then I will really feel great!


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## nicolevins (Jan 17, 2010)

HappiBun -
that's great  You can still eat some dairy products(as far as I know milk is ok), because the cow aren't hurt for their milk. If they weren't milked, something would happen to them (I have no idea what). Although, I do realise that cows must get pregnant to drink milk - then their babies are taken away.

I asked this question on Onision.com..

Q: Do yous think I should stay on the dairy? Would it be ok for me to call myself a vegetarian then ? 

A: As long as you don't consume crap, you are a vegetarian.

And yep, Amy, if you buy them organic/free-range you know you are doing a good thing 'cos it is doing no harm to the animals really. 

Someone told me - if you have no dairy/meat what so ever you are an ovo-vegetarian.

But I dont know  I've even lost half a stone already(since last week). I know that's not alot lol, but I am not vegetarian to lose weight. I simply do not agree with the slaughter. Right now, I can smell a fry (someone is doing a fry) and I feel like getting sick :foreheadsmack:

Since today is Sunday, I go to my cousins for dinner.. I do every Sunday. I told my cousin that I was a vegetarian, since she was asking 'why wasn't I eating the chicken goujons and sausages at the pub'. She disagrees with me, but her mother is more understanding - I will have to think of a way to explain that I am a vegetarian and will not have the cabbage(cooked in meat water)/ ham / chicken. :dunno

ANYWAY, enough about my blabbering, I hope to hear some more of everyone's thoughts.


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## fuzz16 (Jan 17, 2010)

i grew up country...as horrible as it sounds to everyone here we grew, killed, and dressed out own chicikens. i love meat, it will always be a part of my life...just mainly the way i was taught though


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## Brandy456 (Jan 17, 2010)

I enjoy eating meat too much.
I don't eat it often.. though
I mean.. I grew up with a hunting family (Hahah.. last name  coincidence) (they stopped when i was born) so we've alway ate meat.
I only eat chicken, beef and pork.
Mostly beef.


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## DeniseJP (Jan 17, 2010)

*slavetoabunny wrote: *


> I am a pescatarian...I eat fish, shellfish and dairy. I have been successful on this diet for a little over 3 years now. I love it. Lots of yummy options!!



I am leaning this way... I don't care for freshwater fish as much as I like salt water fish but being in upstate NY, salt water fish is not always available or as fresh as I would like it. Steamer clams (the softer shelled long neck clams) are my favorite shellfish and I always get those when I go to Connecticut or Rhode Island... oops, almost forgot about Maine lobster, too.

I also went to Moe's Southwest Grill for dinner on Friday night and happily got to order a "Triple Lindy" burrito and had tofu on it instead of meat and it was delicious. If a vegetarian option is available, I usually go for it. I like butter, milk and cheese so those items can dress up just about anything.

I like venison and pheasant but that is about all the "meat" I can eat (I know where mine comes from as we raise pheasants and the deer that we hunt eat in the fields around us... chicken grosses me out and I don't care for beef or pork. Having Tim and the boys here - they like their meat but I find myself choosing to eat more vegetarian foods.

Our kitchen at school serves veggie burgers on the days that they serve cheeseburgers and hamburgers, so I will order that or my usual salad at lunch.

Denise


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## slavetoabunny (Jan 17, 2010)

The nice thing about still eating fish and shellfish, is that you can go out to a restaurant and still have a lot of options. Sushi anyone?


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## Amy27 (Jan 17, 2010)

I have been a vegetarian since August 2009. I am a lacto-ovo vegetarian so I still eat diary and eggs. I just decided over night I couldn't eat meat and haven't since. 

What made me become a vegetarian was that rabbit drowning at a petstore. I felt so helpless to help animals. I had written letters and made phone calls about those rabbits and I still felt helpless. I started to think what else can I do to help animals, all animals. I decided I had to stop eating them. 

It doesn't bother me when other people eat meat. All of my friends eat meat and I do go out to eat when them often. Everyone has to make choices that are best for them. 

Nicole, a website that really helped me was veggieboards.com they have a ton of information on different types of vegetarianism and lots of recipes and helpful information.


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## slavetoabunny (Jan 17, 2010)

It doesn't bother me at all when other people eat meat. In fact, my husband is a hunter and a carnivore. I cook meat for him all of the time.


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## degrassi (Jan 17, 2010)

You might want to research into what "free range" actually means. You might have pictures of animals roaming nice pastures but that is FAR from the truth. There is no set definitions of what "free range" is and no real regulation. The broad definitions they do have are just for poultry, not for beef, pork or other non poultry animals. The smaller farms might be producing quality "free range" products but the giant meat industry farmers aren't. A few examples of what can be considered "free range" under these broad "definitions" are if a industry poultry farmer adds a small dirt yard to his chicken warehouse, or if a egg farmer uses a bigger cage then standard(the birds aren't even let out of the cage!). So until the USDA regulates things better its hard to trust the labels. 

A good book is the "ominvores delema" by Michael Pollan.He goes into where your food comes from, down to the corn fields and feedlots/farms. Its an easy read and very eye opening. Or watch the doc Food inc. its really good too. 

But this is off topic from Veg/Vegan.


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## Happi Bun (Jan 17, 2010)

The book that changed my view on what I eat is called Farm Sanctuary: Changing Hearts and Minds About Animals and Food. Here is some info on the book I pulled from Amazon, "In 1986, after rescuing a live sheep from a pile of dead animals in a stockyard, the author founded Farm Sanctuary, an organization that rescues discarded living animals from stockyards, slaughterhouses and factory farms; provides shelters for them; and advocates for humane animal treatment. In this impassioned book, Baur paints an appealing picture of these shelters and the animals that live there far from the brutality of industrial farming, which he describes in detail. Some of this inhumane treatment is not newsâchickens packed into tiny cagesâbut accounts of living animals discarded like garbage because they are ill or weak surprise. Baur's nonprofit promotes legal remedies to stop the inhumane conditions chronicled. He believes that the best way to demonstrate concern for industrially farmed animals is to adopt a vegan lifestyle, but doesn't proselytize. Rather, he makes a strong case that meat eaters have an ethical responsibility to ensure that the animals they eat have not been abused. His well-argued book includes helpful lists of resources and organizations that deal with factory farming, animal welfare rights, humane food production and the environment."

I'm currently still reading it, but it's already changed my life. It's also a national bestseller. I got the book as a gift from my mother this past Christmas, I had told her I really would love to have it. I started reading it the next day, which just so happened to be Christmas Day. For dinner the family was having turkey. When I looked at the featherless and headless animal on the plate my stomach turned. No longer did I see something delicious. I saw an animal that had suffered horrendously in factory farming, crammed with hundreds other in a building without ever feeling the warmth of the sun, something I believe every living creature has a right to experience. These days they pump them full of such crap and breed them so they are so large their legs cannot withstand the weight of their own body. I also saw an intelligent (just in a different way) and feeling being that is no different than my companion animals I choose to share our home with. 

My grandfather used to hunt, and he fishes. I will never preach to him or make him feel less of a human being because of it. It's up to each individual person to decide how they want to live their life. The rest of my family eats meat, but accommodates some vegetarian dishes already because my cousin is a vegetarian. I'm grateful that my family is very open minded and loving, no matter our differences.

Here is Farm Sanctuary's website for those interested! I hope to visit their California location sometime soon. http://www.farmsanctuary.org

Just a side note;
I love the brand Morningstar Farms. They make a great veggie "Chicken" Pattie. 
It's super delicious sliced up and tossed in romaine salad!


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## undergunfire (Jan 17, 2010)

*Happi Bun wrote: *


> Just a side note;
> I love the brand Morningstar Farms. They make a great veggie "Chicken" Pattie.
> It's super delicious sliced up and tossed in romaine salad!


That book sounds interesting...I may have to look into it .

I also love Morningstar stuff. Have you tried their pizza burgers? Delicious with spinach, onion, and light ranch. I eat their spicy black bean burgers almost weekly.


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## Happi Bun (Jan 17, 2010)

Oh, it's very interesting! It's not all about tragedy and abuse either, it seems to balance a lot of bad with hope. It's very motivating and Inspiring. The only other Morningstar food I've tried so far is their veg sausage, but I didn't like it at all. I'm quite picky. I will definitelty be on the look out for the Pizza Burgers and Spicy black bean burgers, that sounds delicious and I love food that has a kick to it!


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## irishbunny (Jan 17, 2010)

I'm not but I wish I was! I eat such a small range of food, that if I cut out meat I would eat hardly anything at all. As it is I don't eat much meat anyway, mostly just chicken and a small amount of pork and beef, only in things like sheperds pie/lasange/pizza. I don't eat ''big lump'' of it if you know what I mean, I wouldn't be able to cause it is just icky lol, and fatty and chewy yuck.


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## Jessyka (Jan 17, 2010)

Ugh, Onision is a wonderful example of why I avoid vegetarian discussions, and Youtube videos involving vegetarian/vegan subjects. I'd be a vegan if I could, but my doctor advises against it at least for a few more years. 

This debate is not one I will jump into on this forum, because I can't seem to talk about it without hurting people's feelings.


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## BethM (Jan 17, 2010)

*slavetoabunny wrote: *


> The nice thing about still eating fish and shellfish, is that you can go out to a restaurant and still have a lot of options. Sushi anyone?


Oh, Patti, I love sushi so much! 
I also find that around here (NE Kansas), not every restaurant has a vegetarian option, but they always have a fish option. My husband loves to eat out, and we try really hard to visit locally-owned restaurants and mostly avoid chains, so I can't always count on a menu trying to cater to the masses.
Luckily, my favorite places are Japanese (sushi, teriyaki salmon, etc) and Cajun (catfish!!!). The only chain we visit regularly is Chipotle, I could eat their veggie bowl every day!

My husband still eats meat. I refuse to cook it for him, so he no longer eats it at home. He'll order it when we go out, and he eats lunchmeat sandwiches for lunch at work. 
I LOVE Morningstar Farms products! I was upset that my Target didn't have them for a couple months, and neither did Whole Foods, it freaked me out. They're getting them back, though, so that's good. My absolute favorite one is Mushroom Lover's Burger. Husband likes the Spicy Black Bean. I tried their sausages this morning, and found them ok. I was never a sausage fan, but I found these to be edible. Probably won't buy them again, but I'll finish the box. The "bacon" is pretty gross, though! I like the spicy chicken one, too.


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## missyscove (Jan 18, 2010)

*Happi Bun wrote: *


> The book that changed my view on what I eat is called Farm Sanctuary: Changing Hearts and Minds About Animals and Food. Here is some info on the book I pulled from Amazon, "In 1986, after rescuing a live sheep from a pile of dead animals in a stockyard, the author founded Farm Sanctuary, an organization that rescues discarded living animals from stockyards, slaughterhouses and factory farms; provides shelters for them; and advocates for humane animal treatment. In this impassioned book, Baur paints an appealing picture of these shelters and the animals that live there far from the brutality of industrial farming, which he describes in detail. Some of this inhumane treatment is not newsâchickens packed into tiny cagesâbut accounts of living animals discarded like garbage because they are ill or weak surprise. Baur's nonprofit promotes legal remedies to stop the inhumane conditions chronicled. He believes that the best way to demonstrate concern for industrially farmed animals is to adopt a vegan lifestyle, but doesn't proselytize. Rather, he makes a strong case that meat eaters have an ethical responsibility to ensure that the animals they eat have not been abused. His well-argued book includes helpful lists of resources and organizations that deal with factory farming, animal welfare rights, humane food production and the environment."
> 
> I'm currently still reading it, but it's already changed my life. It's also a national bestseller. I got the book as a gift from my mother this past Christmas, I had told her I really would love to have it. I started reading it the next day, which just so happened to be Christmas Day. For dinner the family was having turkey. When I looked at the featherless and headless animal on the plate my stomach turned. No longer did I see something delicious. I saw an animal that had suffered horrendously in factory farming, crammed with hundreds other in a building without ever feeling the warmth of the sun, something I believe every living creature has a right to experience. These days they pump them full of such crap and breed them so they are so large their legs cannot withstand the weight of their own body. I also saw an intelligent (just in a different way) and feeling being that is no different than my companion animals I choose to share our home with.
> 
> ...


Personally, I classify farm sanctuary in with PETA. They're located very close to Ithaca, where I go to school. 
Last year, in my Animal Agriculture and Society class, where we visited a Marcho Farms Veal farm in Pennsylvania, we studied both sides of the veal argument. (We do the field trip because in past years the argument would get pretty heated, but most people had never seen how veal was really produced, so the trip gives us exposure to that first hand). For the anti-veal side, we looked at some pictures Farm Sanctuary had put on their website and labeled as being Marcho farms calves. They were later forced to remove the Marcho farms name as it turned out the pictures weren't actually from Marcho farms at all. However, the photos showed several dead calves which to the untrained eye, yes, looked heartbreaking, until you realize the calves were definitely under 5 days old and could have been anywhere, like behind an auction. That's when you have to step in and blame the dairy who isn't providing enough care to the bull calves on their way to the veal grower, but then the dairy farmer says they're not getting enough $ for the calf to make it worthwhile to them. 
It's also important to recognize that consumers place a lot of demands on animal agriculture and the farmer is more than happy to meet those demands (organic, free range, eliminating veal crates, etc.), however, that costs the farmer more and then the consumers are rarely willing to pay the extra cost.

Just my :twocents. Obviously I could go on for hours about different issues in animal agriculture and you should hear me try and talk my friends into eating more meat and drinking more milk!


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## Happi Bun (Jan 18, 2010)

I don't see how your example classifies them with PETA. Regardless, even if they are, the book is amazing and I believe Farm Sanctuary does wonderful work. It one of those things you have to read before knocking it down. Such a wealth of information (on both sides) from years of personal experience working with the meat industry.


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## Happi Bun (Jan 18, 2010)

*Jessyka wrote: *


> Ugh, Onision is a wonderful example of why I avoid vegetarian discussions, and Youtube videos involving vegetarian/vegan subjects. I'd be a vegan if I could, but my doctor advises against it at least for a few more years.
> 
> This debate is not one I will jump into on this forum, because I can't seem to talk about it without hurting people's feelings.


For the record I do not like Onision. I'm happy to see someone so passionate about saving animals, but I honestly believe he gives Vegetarian's a bad name. All the one's I have met are no where near extreme on pushing their beliefs. Calling people who eat meat murderers is wrong and hateful. 

We can all coexist if we show each other respect and compassion. Not everyone shares the same religion or even desire to be a part of one, not everyone dresses the same, not everyone shares the same moral compass. There is nothing wrong with being different than others, it what makes us individuals.


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## BethM (Jan 18, 2010)

I think the thing that really sealed things for me was one particular scene in the movie Food, Inc., which I just saw mid-October.

It was the undercover footage of a "downer" cow being rolled with the forks of a forklift. The cow was obviously sick, but still alive; it couldn't stand. It appeared that the cow was being rolled towards the production line, but that wasn't clear. In any case.... Every time I start to think that it "couldn't hurt" to have just one burger or steak, the image of that cow being rolled along with a forklift pops into my head, and I literally feel nauseous. I absolutely cannot support an industry that allows that to happen. I don't think there is any reason that cow couldn't have been put down *before* it was rolled along like that.

I'm sure people can argue that this is not a common or widespread practice, but after the meat is packaged and on the grocery store shelf, there is no way to tell if that meat came from a humanely treated animal or not. I would rather buy no meat at all, than accidentally supportone company that would allow that to happen.

Though I'm not vegan, I do avoid processed foods with animal by-products (like gelatin). Although I am very budget conscious, I have no problem paying more money for a higher quality product, or a product that doesn't have animal ingredients.


eta: I also do not go around preaching vegetarianism, though if someone asks why I no longer eat meat, I will tell them. My MIL is a bit resistant, and will invite me to dinner at her house and then not provide a single thin I can eat, which I think is extremely rude. I now demand to know the menu before I go, and if it's all got meat ingredients, I refuse to go. My own family is much more accomodating.


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## missyscove (Jan 18, 2010)

*Happi Bun wrote: *


> I don't see how your example classifies them with PETA. Regardless, even if they are, the book is amazing and I believe Farm Sanctuary does wonderful work. It one of those things you have to read before knocking it down. Such a wealth of information (on both sides) from years of personal experience working with the meat industry.



The reason I place then with PETA in my mind is that both groups may have some philosophical things that are great, I mean, "ethical treatment of animals" sounds great, until you realize that what they really want is for all animals, including pets, to be returned to the wild. I just can't stand when they put out misinformation that is either clearly misinformation, or when the facts about a situation simply aren't clear and they use it anyway.


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## Stanza (Jan 18, 2010)

The book The Food Revolution is what lead me to become vegetarian. 

It's all part of learning to live in harmony with our planet 

Yaay veggies! lol


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## GorbyJobRabbits (Jan 18, 2010)

I'm nearly strictly carnivore. I don't like vegtables.

Not every slaughterhouse is like you see on here. They blow it way way out of proportion.

I grew up in 4-H. Everything on our farm had to earn its keep, or pay for itself. I was the one that fed and took care of all the animals. So they were my 'children'. But in the end, they fed the family. It is hard to bottle feed calves, and in the end you know they will be on the dinner plate. But a family friend runs a slaughter house/meat processing. I've helped there for years, and still do during deer season. Every animal is killed humanely as possible. They do care about the animals and do it as quickly as they can, so the animal does not feel pain. Its still sad, but thats life.



And forgetting farm animals. Hunting is EXTREMELY important in wildlife. Humans have overbuilt, and animals have less land. There is only so much of a carrying capacity places can hold. For Ohio's deer heard, we hold about 700 thousand deer. And thats pushing it. If hunting did not thin it out, deer would starve.... more disease would spread, exc... Its like that with every species. Its extremely extremely important.

There will never be harmony on this planet, if there is no hunting. You can't imagine the amount of starvation that would happen with deer, and other animals, rabbits, exc... if hunting did not thin out the excess.

Anyways, dont look up slaughter houses via net. Peta and other organizations throw it way out of perportion. Meat industries important. You do realize even if you didnt eat meat, a lot of the stuff you have in your house is made of animals anyway?


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## PL-Reef (Jan 18, 2010)

As my wife puts it... I'm a meat and potatoes type of guy. Nothing says dinner to me like a large rare steak. But that's my opinion. Were all entitled to our own.
My wife on the other hand is much happier with a Squash casserole for dinner. Shes not against meat just prefers veggies over it. 
Don't get me wrong I love veggies, I just don't think I could do without meat in my diet for an extended period of time. Nor would I want to.


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## Happi Bun (Jan 19, 2010)

*AndersonsRabbits wrote: *


> You do realize even if you didnt eat meat, a lot of the stuff you have in your house is made of animals anyway?


I can't think of 'a lot' of objects in a home that are made from animal meat, excluding of course leather furniture, clothes, shoes, belts, etc. Though most Vegetarian's and especially Vegan's are not going to buy such items. There are plenty of alternatives that do not involve killing an animal.

On that subject though, many people view vegetarianism as pointless because it's such a huge industry. Vegetarians only make up a small percent of the human population. Someone can only do so much to be cruelty free before they are living bare as a newborn in some mud hut in the jungle. However, just because cruelty continues doesn't mean someone is obligated to take part. 

For Vegetarians, being one is not something that's debatable. You cannot simply say, "Slaughter houses aren't all bad, trust me. Here's a steak." An animal still died for the sake of your taste buds (note when I say 'your' I'm not directing it literally at you) Many do it because they personally feel better with themselves, spiritually and mentally. 

I very greatly dislike vegetables and I'm a fast food junkie, so the transition for me is very difficult. Eating meat is easy. Even if something isn't made out of flesh, when you look at the ingredients it usually will have some form of animal meat. Some fast food joints even cook their only vegetarian options in the oil the meat is cooked in. Kind of defeats the reason for putting it on there.

See, your feel that hunting is fine, actually that it saves our "natural" ecosystem. I disagree and believe me, I have my reasons and would go into great detail.  However, I personally do not enjoy debates. I get enough headaches away from the computer. I like it to be my relaxation zone. Plus, I find when people start defending their beliefs in when trouble starts.


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## GorbyJobRabbits (Jan 19, 2010)

Happi Bun wrote:


> *AndersonsRabbits wrote: *
> 
> 
> > You do realize even if you didnt eat meat, a lot of the stuff you have in your house is made of animals anyway?
> ...



I total understand. I like to give my opinion and then thats that. Some people get too heated over the net. =) I just work as a wildlife manager for a living, and deer are my heart, and I've dived in so far on learning management practices and whatnot and just see the distruction when they're not thinned out.

I also believe humans are no better then animals... meaning, when you hear of a couger killing a runner in colorado... What makes a human too good to be a meal?


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## BethM (Jan 19, 2010)

I lived on Guam for a year, and worked in the conservation field. I have seen theeffects that overpopulation of wildlife can cause, especially non-native species.

The feral deer and hogs seriously need to be eradicated, as they are causing massive amounts of destruction to the native habitats and species. In this case, it is the hunters that are keeping them there, because they want to hunt them. Wildlife officials can't get any permission to remove the animals, because of the hunters.

Of course, this is a different situation to what is going on Stateside, and I'm just throwing it out there.

I still wouldn't eat the animals.


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## californiagirl (Jan 19, 2010)

*Happi Bun wrote: *


> *AndersonsRabbits wrote: *
> 
> 
> > You do realize even if you didnt eat meat, a lot of the stuff you have in your house is made of animals anyway?
> ...



Beyond the Dinner Plate...

Animals provide us with much more than food, including the bone china we serve it on! In fact, about 45% of each food animal is actually used to make products other than food. Many of these products are part of our every day lives.

*Around the house:* From the paint and wallpaper on the walls to the linoleum and carpet on the floors, weâre literally surrounded by items that include products from animals. Animal products are used to make the plywood and drywall used in buildings and in the insulation that keeps them warm. Refrigerators and air conditioners use freon, a cooling agent that contains a derivative from animal fat. Egg whites are used in ceramic tile and catalase enzyme is used to make foam rubber. Laundry detergents and fabric softeners contain animal products as do many disinfectants, household cleaners and polishes. Animals even give us candles and the matches to light them with. Just as feather pillows and wool blankets help us sleep better, the many products animals provide add comfort to our lives.

*Getting us there:* Whether we walk, bike, drive or fly, animal products help to get us where we are going. The asphalt on roads and walkways, the concrete blocks used to build bridges, even the steel in trains and planes are made using animal products. Animals also play a part in all sorts of mechanical items. For example, fatty acids and proteins are used to make lubricants and fluids. Glycerol is in brake fluid and anti-freeze while stearic acid is used to help tires hold their shape and improve their wear.

*Helping us look good:* Many personal care products either contain animal ingredients or involve animal products in the manufacturing process. These items include sunscreens, deodorants, soaps and shampoos, cosmetics, toothpastes and mouthwashes. For example, lanolin, an oil that is removed from sheep wool before it can be spun and dyed, is used in hand creams and make-up. Animals also help clothe us. Wool, felt, down, leather and fur are obvious. Less obvious are buttons used to fasten clothes and fabric dyes used to colour them. Decorative items like mother of pearl and tortoise shell also come from farm animals.

*For our health:* Over 350 pharmaceuticals come from animals. At the pharmacy, animals give us cold and allergy medicines and the gelatin capsules they come in. Stomach remedies, vitamins and mineral supplements are also derived from animals. Many lifesaving drugs such as cortisone and insulin, and treatments for anaemia, emphysema, malaria, stroke and heart attacks are animal-based. While some pharmaceuticals, such as insulin, can now be synthesized through biotechnology many are still made more economically from animal-based products. Medical supplies also rely on animal products. For example; latex surgical gloves contain tallow, x-ray film contains gelatin, and wool grease is used to make thermometers heat sensitive.

Animals help us live a healthier lifestyle. They contribute in countless ways to our sports and recreation. Sheep wool gives baseballs their bounce. Gelatin helps golf balls roll straight. Leather, foam rubber and plastics are used in most types of sports equipment. Sheep intestines are used to string some types of sports racquets while poultry feathers are thought to make the best darts and fishing lures.

*Making our jobs easier and safer:* Animals are an integral part of our economy. Not only do they support farmers and food businesses but their by-products provide source materials needed for hundreds of other industries and thousands of jobs.

At the office, animals help to make computers and photocopiers work. Animal products are used in making the electrical circuitry, the ink toners to print onto copy paper and even the paper itself. Factories need animals too. Steel ball bearings and lubricants contain animal products that help machinery run smoothly and safely. Industrial cleaners and fire extinguishers are made using animal ingredients, helping keep the workplace safe.

Animals give health care and rescue workers the medicines, diagnostic tools and equipment to help both people and animals. The film and publishing industries depend on animal products for things like photographic films and filters, inks and papers. Artists and musicians rely on them for brushes and art supplies and instruments like drums, pianos, and other tools of the trade. Wherever we work, animals help us do our jobs.

*Livestock are Natureâs Blue Box...* Animals and animal products play an important role in conserving resources and reducing waste. By recycling plant and man-made by-products to meet farm animal needs, we greatly reduce our waste disposal needs.

For example, one average sized Ontario manufacturer alone uses 80-100 tonnes of stale bread a day to make farm animal feed. Over the course of a year, this amounts to about 600 tractor trailer loads of bread that has gone stale on supermarket shelves and would otherwise go into landfill.

In turn, by using 98% (or more) of every animal we make efficient use of a renewable natural resource which, unlike many synthetics, breakdown quickly in the ecosystem. Animals and animal products are important in meeting human and animal needs in an efficient and sustainable way.

Website I found this on: http://www.ofac.org/issues/animals_everyday.php


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## Happi Bun (Jan 19, 2010)

Wow, that's very interesting, thanks for posting all that. I wonder how Vegan's do it?! Not having anything to do with any kind of animal product. I had no idea all those things are related to animals. :shock: Like I said, someone can only do so much to be cruelty free before they are living bare as a newborn in some mud hut in the jungle. Though that does make me question how effective deciding to be a vegetarian is if so many other products you buy are made out of essentially what you have vowed to stop consuming.


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## DeniseJP (Jan 19, 2010)

*slavetoabunny wrote: *


> The nice thing about still eating fish and shellfish, is that you can go out to a restaurant and still have a lot of options. Sushi anyone?



Count me in - one of my favorite meals is sushi....

Eggplant parmigiana is my other favorite vegetarian meal, and vegetarian chili and eggplant/almond enchiladas...

Getting hungry here!

Denise


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## slavetoabunny (Jan 19, 2010)

*DeniseJP wrote: *


> *slavetoabunny wrote: *
> 
> 
> > The nice thing about still eating fish and shellfish, is that you can go out to a restaurant and still have a lot of options. Sushi anyone?
> ...


Mmmmmm..........I need to get down to our favorite Italian restaurant for some eggplant! My carnivore hubby loves their Linguine con le vongole (angel hair pasta with white clam sauce). Not to mention the excellent fried calamari with Arabbiata Sauce. Totally sinful


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## Violet23 (Jan 21, 2010)

I have to agree with you Patti, I could never give up seafood! Honestly I find myself eating meat less and less, most days I wont even eat any at all now, but being a broke student does that too, lol. Being a pescatarian is so much cheaper on the wallet. 
And as for cosmetic products, I dont even wear make-up anymore, makes my skin itchy and uncomfortable, and I always forget Im wearing it and smear it everywhere, lol. Now I just need to convince my sisters that they are using it way too much, wish me luck


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## GorbyJobRabbits (Jan 21, 2010)

I have to ask... what makes a fish less then any other animal? Those of you who don't eat any other meat, but fish and seafoods alright.


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## slavetoabunny (Jan 21, 2010)

*AndersonsRabbits wrote: *


> I have to ask... what makes a fish less then any other animal? Those of you who don't eat any other meat, but fish and seafoods alright.


I won't argue that a fish is less important than any other creature, but I did post earlier in this topic that my reason for being a pescatarian was health related and had nothing to do with my love for animals.


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## OakRidgeRabbits (Jan 21, 2010)

I eat meat and am an Agricultural Sciences major in college. Bottom line is that, whether you like it or not, you rely on animals as a resources. Animals can be friends or family members as well, but the extreme lengths that some go to avoid "using" animals is honestly very useless. Like californiagirl showed us, you're not off the hook just by refusing to eat meat.  In fact, this movement could even drive us to waste a lot of the animals, since we'll still need them for "parts" but will have no use for the meat.

Also, just as a sidenote, the videos and pictures and "undercover" footage you see on TV or on the internet is often staged to give you a particular feeling and manipulate your feelins. Feel free to believe whatever you want to but PLEASE, find your information first hand to back yourself up. Until you've gone and seen the circumstances under which animals are kept, don't let it influence your lifestyle. Not worth worrying about, since most of it is not reliable or reputable info.


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## BethM (Jan 21, 2010)

*slavetoabunny wrote: *


> *AndersonsRabbits wrote: *
> 
> 
> > I have to ask... what makes a fish less then any other animal? Those of you who don't eat any other meat, but fish and seafoods alright.
> ...



I am not going to argue about this either. *shrug* It's lonely enough being a pescatarian in NE Kansas without argueing about it. (Vegetarians don't like that I still eat fish, and the meat eaters don't like that I don't eat birds/mammals, especially in the barbecue mecca that is Kansas City. Whatever.)


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## Luluznewz (Jan 21, 2010)

I'm a pescatarian as well. I would be a full vegetarian but I don't think that at 19 with my super active lifestyle that I could really keep it up and still be healthy. I know other people can, but I'm a college student and cant prepare elaborate meals every night. 

My reasons for doing it were mostly environmental. Raising cows and chickens is very costly to our environment and a straight up waste in my opinion. Also, I feel like it keeps me away from all the nasty friend food and gives me a nice peace of mind everytime I drive past cows.  


But mostly, its the environmental stuff. Simply by not eating meat I feel like i'm helping out a lot.


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## slavetoabunny (Jan 21, 2010)

*BethM wrote: *


> *slavetoabunny wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *AndersonsRabbits wrote: *
> ...


I agree that we should all respect each other preferences. Our rescue has a large number of meat eaters. Whenever we have a rescue gathering, we always offer meat options. To each his own. I have no problem preparing and serving meat in my home.


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## Myia09 (Jan 22, 2010)

I don't eat red meat very often..maybe once every couple weeks. I do like chicken and love fish. 
I do it mainly because I don't have a desire..
I tried to become vegitarian but it gets too difficult..or I slip up unconciously. 
The only reason why I would become a vegitarian is health reasons..I also agree most places blow up the bad things..esp PETA whom I am strictly against.

I also don't eat donuts, waffles, cookies, ect becuase something with wheat AND sugar makes me sick..although I love pasta and soda..its the combo that makes me feel really ill.


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## Mrs. PBJ (Jan 22, 2010)

I think its a matter of what you want.

If given the choice of beef chicken or fish I would choose fish first chicken second. 

Unless steak then the steak tops.

It a matter of choice my mom never cooked pork so i dont eat it unless i cook it cause it makes me sick my sister does not allow her children to eat any pork.

Its matter of preference and we should all remember that. 

I could never not eat meat. That dies not mean i am going to tell you you should. 

Allow our body's are made to eat meat. But the one thing most people dont know is our body's are made to eat raw meat not cooked meat. 

I am not saying anything to get anything started. I was stated somehting I was told long ago.


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## RandomWiktor (Jan 23, 2010)

I'm a vegan and yes I am aware that it is impossible to live a life 100% free of animal products. I do not see that as a reason to use animal products that I _don't_ need to use, however. The fact that some of my choices as a consumer have been robbed by modern industry does not mean I should give up on my remaining choices.

I went vegan for a myriad of reasons. The primary reason I am a vegan is this: pretty much everything we do in life rides on the back of the suffering of others. However, I see no reason to cause suffering when I don't _need_ to for my survival. Deliberate consumption of animal products is a choice, not a necessity, and I would not choose to do something that I know harms others. 

In addition to exploiting, killing, and often abusing animals, modern industrial animal agriculture is inefficient in terms of resource use, pollutes the environment, is linked to workers' rights abuses, and frankly isn't all that good for your health unless in moderation. 

I am fully aware that modern industrial plant agriculture has many of the same issues, but considering that the overwhelming majority of our major crops are used for animal feed, animal consumption is even more linked to industrial plant agriculture than a vegan diet. And thankfully, there are enough local farms in my area that I can have a good say in where my much of my produce comes from. I would not have a good say in where the corn fed to my steak came from even if the steak itself was local & well cared for.

I have been to both very good and very bad modern farms. I've had first hand experience not only observing but participating in much of what livestock is subjected to. I'm not someone naive who has read a little too much PETA propoganda; in fact, I actively dislike PETA. I don't believe that farmers are evil animal murderers; in fact, I feel really, really bad for modern farmers (plant and animal), because they're being forced to adopt industrial agriculture or be driven out of business. And I have no unrealistic ideas of living a "cruelty free life" because it doesn't exist. I simply do what helps me sleep better at night by trying not to contribute to anything I find morally abhorrent if I don't NEED to.


Because farm sanctuary came up, can I clear a misconception stated in this thread? Farm sanctuary does not want to "return all animals to the wild." In fact, short of PETA & the ALF, I don't think I know any animal rights or animal welfare organization that thinks we should go let loose domesticated animals. Heck many of Farm Sanctuary's rescues were stray livestock. Farm Sanctuary's founder, whom I know personally, is a philisophical vegan. This means he opposes the _exploitation_ of animals, and breeding animals so that we can keep them as food, pets, etc. is a form of exploitation. Most philisophical vegans believe that we should stop breeding animals in captivity for human usage and allow domesticated strains to naturally lapse into extinction via the end of production, NOT that we should release the ones already here. I see animal welfarists being accused of not doing their research and I'd like to ask the same; please research what a philisophical animal rights perspective actually is before making claims about it rather than relying on what fundamentally insane fringe organization has perverted it into.

Also: 


> You can't imagine the amount of starvation that would happen with deer, and other animals, rabbits, exc... if hunting did not thin out the excess.



...So? Starvation in the absence of adequate resources is how nature deals with overpopulation and always has. It may look sad, but it is a good thing from an ecology perspective. It weeds out weak individuals, provides needed winter prey for predators and scavengers, and reduces reproductive success. That means a more sustainable population of herbivores and a more balanced ecosystem.

Putting hunting season right before winter is one of the dumbest ecological moves we've ever made. Winter naturally results in starvation, weaker body condition, etc. in herbivores. This means that in the absence of sufficient resources, unfit individuals perish and the ammount of young born is limited (and their suvival is based only on what the environment can support). 

By artifically lowering numbers sigificantly below winter, we interfere with natural selection; I don't think nature had the meatiest does and the healthiest bucks in mind for "who dies this winter?" This not only lets less fit individuals survive to reproduce, but a fatter winter means more fawns and more successful birthing & rearing. 

Before humans, nature regulated populations just fine. And it will continue to if we stop interfering with it. I guarentee a few good winter starve-offs would do MUCH more for reducing deer populations than hunting ever has. 

We'll have even BETTER luck if we stop slaughtering predators every time they try to make a rebound in population - a policy we have routinely adopted to protect hoofstock FOR the hunting industry. Predators will not "whipe out" our hoofstock; again, nature does fine regulating itself. When herbivores become too scarce, predators starve to death, their populations drop, and herbivore populations rise. Look at any chart of ecological data on predator/prey cycles. This is how it as always been, and it is the best way to maintain a healthy ecosystem. 

I am yet to see an example of an ecosystem where"management" by humans did an equally good job at creating a balanced ecosystem as the systems nature put in place. Indeed historically our wildlife "management" policies have spelled little but disaster for the environment. Our policies with furbearers, predators, marine mammals, and fish have been nothing short of ecological disasters, while our policies in hoofstock "management" offer no meaningful, long-term solution to the overpopulation we caused by upsetting predator/prey relationships.Nature does a much better job than us, period, so we should probably just quit meddling with it.


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## RandomWiktor (Jan 23, 2010)

Eeep. I feel a little like a jerk; the hunting discussion is kindof O/T, isn't it? I don't mean any offense to the OP if I've caused a derailment! I'll stay on topic for any further posts in this thread, promise.


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## missyscove (Jan 23, 2010)

*RandomWiktor wrote: *


> Because farm sanctuary came up, can I clear a misconception stated in this thread? Farm sanctuary does not want to "return all animals to the wild." In fact, short of PETA & the ALF, I don't think I know any animal rights or animal welfare organization that thinks we should go let loose domesticated animals. Heck many of Farm Sanctuary's rescues were stray livestock. Farm Sanctuary's founder, whom I know personally, is a philisophical vegan. This means he opposes the _exploitation_ of animals, and breeding animals so that we can keep them as food, pets, etc. is a form of exploitation. Most philisophical vegans believe that we should stop breeding animals in captivity for human usage and allow domesticated strains to naturally lapse into extinction via the end of production, NOT that we should release the ones already here. I see animal welfarists being accused of not doing their research and I'd like to ask the same; please research what a philisophical animal rights perspective actually is before making claims about it rather than relying on what fundamentally insane fringe organization has perverted it into.



I didn't say that that's what Farm Sanctuary wanted to do, but I do believe that is one of PETA's goals, perhaps it didn't flow as well as I had intended it to. What I did say is that, in my mind, I lumped Farm Sanctuary in with PETA because I know that both have given out misinformation, or information that certainly lacked a huge number of facts from the opposing viewpoint, that have resulted in horrible, and horribly inaccurate, descriptions of animal agriculture.


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## RandomWiktor (Jan 23, 2010)

Ah, I miunderstood; I thought you were saying that PETA/Farm sanctuary shared the same philosophy. They definitely do not. I respect how you feel about their portrayal of agriculture, but I think it's fair to say that industrial agriculture also gives a pretty misleading view of what it entails and tends to sweep a lot of its problems under the carpet and pretend they don't exist. Both sides of the coin have an agenda and both sides mislead the public as a result. Somewhere between the two lies the truth.


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## BethM (Jan 24, 2010)

*slavetoabunny wrote: *


> I agree that we should all respect each other preferences. Our rescue has a large number of meat eaters. Whenever we have a rescue gathering, we always offer meat options. To each his own. I have no problem preparing and serving meat in my home.


Thanks, Patti. 

Since my reasons for no longer eating birds/mammals are mainly about cruelty, I catch a lot of heat from people arguing that fish are no different than any other animal. I think people who have made a dietary choice don't really get the same criticism. I may consider telling people it is just a dietary choice, so I don't get the criticism. A lot of people I know think it's ok to not eat something for health reasons, or because you just don't like it, but once ethics/cruelty comes into the discussion, it turns into a heated debate.

(It reminds me of the criticism I get for saying I don't want to have kids. But when I say I "can't" have kids, I get sympathy instead. I do want to say that I absolutely respect people who choose to be parents, I just don't want to have kids myself. See, I feel like I have to put a disclaimer on it, because of all the criticism.)

Personally, I do not think I would prepare a meat dish, if I were to host an event in my house. However, if I had a pot-luck in my house, I wouldn't make a fuss if someone brought a dish containing meat. I just wouldn't eat it, and probably wouldn't even say anything about it, unless it was just, "I don't eat that." My husband no longer eats meat at home, because I don't want to cook it, and he's too lazy to make it himself. To be fair, I never enjoyed handling raw meat, even when I still ate it. I was always OCD about wearing gloves, and disinfectant spray on all the counters, even the ones I wasn't even preparing the meat near.
Even though I still eat fish, I don't even like to handle that myself. It is rare for me to make it at home. 


On hunting........I grew up in a "hunting" home. My grandpa was really big on hunting. I never thought any of the wild game he brought home tasted good. I can distinctly remember thinking one thing tasted good, but when my grandma told me to "be careful of the buckshot" I didn't eat any more of it. Yuck!! 
I did hear a report on the radio recently (this past summer) about how hunting has, over the years, had a negative effect on wildlife populations. The reasoning was that humans generally prefer the larger, stronger, more robust animals, leaving the younger, smaller, weaker animals among the breeding population. I haven't followed through with the research, but it is an interesting thing to think about.


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## introoder (Jan 25, 2010)

Omnivore here. =D

I grew up hunting, around it, and all that. I learned to not waste the animal, and use everything that we could. What we couldn't, (bones, and hooves, and such) would be returned to the same spot we killed the animal, for the mice and rats to find, and gnaw on for the marrow. 

As far as the animals we eat: Lots of deer, some elk, some turkey, lots of duck/goose, etc. Umn. Shellfish we dig ourselves (we live half an hour from the prime shellfishing spot in WA), and lots of salmon/random rockfish/freshwater fish. 

We hardly ever buy meat from the store. =D Only once in a while, when we want to cook steak. (cows are not feasible to own in the city. XD) And eggs. The city as strict rules on chickens inside city limits.

So... yeah. =D

The only thing we buy from the store is eggs, because it's too far


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## nicolevins (Jan 25, 2010)

Nice to hear ur opinion La Aiko


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## RandomWiktor (Jan 25, 2010)

Agreed! Nice to hear a different perspective than the norm. 

While I may not feel hunting (especially sport hunting) makes for good wildlife management practice, and obviously don't agree with hunting as a vegan, I DO feel it is much less destructive environmentally than industrialized farming, plus there aren't workers rights abuses, intensive confinement systems,and the like involved. I imagine we'd be in far less trouble overall if more people were more responsible for feeding themselves, be that be hunting, gathering, planting, or raising at home rather than relying so heavily on industrial agriculture and processed food sources.


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