# Does anyone else get scared?



## Flashy (May 4, 2007)

Does anyone else get scared when they mate their doe and buck?

Scared of the outcome? Scared of fights? Scared incase something happens to the doe? Just generally scared?

My buns are pets and I am sitting here watching Sandy and Sky mate, andI'm so scared I just want to cry. I have had so much go wrong in thepast with pregnancies, labour, after effects. I can't have it happenagain, yet there is something inside me (I know what it is, it's grief)that tells me I have to mate Sky with anyone and everyone because Ineed to carry on his gene pool.


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## bluebird (May 4, 2007)

i watch carefully in case they decide toofight.and unfortunately things can go wrong especially with dwarfbreeds.still births are very common,peanut babies,hippobabies,faders.Not trying too scare you more but is your rabbit a showwinner or something.not all purebred rabbits should be usedfor breeding.bluebird


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## Flashy (May 4, 2007)

No, she's not a show winner or anything likethat. I bought a proven doe from a breeder. She has had two litters,the first one she lost, and the second she raised four healthy kits.

They haven't fought, and they are now in separate runs next to each other, so the first hurdle has been cleared.

What are peanut babies, Hippo babies and faders? I have come across peanut babies, butnot the other two.

Thanks for the reply


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## Starlight Rabbitry (May 4, 2007)

This is not meant to be mean in any way but why are you breeding them if you are scared of losing one? 

Sharon


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## Flashy (May 4, 2007)

I should never have posted this, sorry


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## polly (May 4, 2007)

I am sorry to hear about your bunny, Myfavourite bunny was Dido (my avatar) he died last year he was my heartbunny i felt just as you did but i could not breed from him as he hadmalocclusion, There will never be another Dido he was unique to me butyou will never find Flash again in the generations bunnies are likepeople we might share genetics but we are not identical to our parentsor grandparents. I have other bunnies and in some i can seecharacteristics similar to Dido it gives me happy memories. If I didn'tbreed rabbits i would rescue. 

Breeding to try find him again won't work I'm sorry i don't mean tosound hard just honest enjoy your happy memories and give yourselfgrieving time but don't make yourself more upset trying to get a miniflash. In time there will be a bunny for you it could be completelydifferent but it will choose you and you will have a relationship justlike you have had with Flash. it usually happens when you least expectit.


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## Starlight Rabbitry (May 4, 2007)

Well said Polly. I understand why youneed to breed Sky. As the buck, he shouldn't have anyproblems because his job is over in about a minute. Good luckand hopefully you get some beautiful babies that will melt your heart.

Sharon


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## Flashy (May 4, 2007)

Thanks 

I'm sorry to learn about Dido though


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## Flashy (May 4, 2007)

Thanks


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## polly (May 4, 2007)

Hey, Dido gave me my love of bunnies if itwasn't for him and the way he was i would never have got into breedingthem and enjoying places like this.  I hope you getgorgeous babies.

I have 3 generations at the mo and i lost the granfather a couple ofweeks ago i can see bits of the grandparents in the babies and the mumbut they certainly have their very own personalities!! they are so funto watch but relax and your doe will too and don't forget loads ofpeople are here when you need help


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## Flashy (May 4, 2007)

Thanks.


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## gentle giants (May 5, 2007)

What I do is try to be prepared for anythingthat might happen. (I know that's not always possible, but it couldmake you feel better to know you have done everything possible toprepare.) Like when they are mating, put the doe in the cage andimmediatly put on leather gloves so if there is a fight I can have myhands in there splitting it up instantly. Or research a good bunnysavvy vet before you breed or have a litter, so you know if a c-sectionor other emergency care is needed, you know who to call and where to goright away. Do you think things like that would make you feel better?


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## Flashy (May 5, 2007)

I always try to be as prepared as possible  The mating itself went ok, so that's not a problem.

We have a great vet that can do C-sections, but that still doesn't help me with the fear, but I do get what you are saying.

We have had a hard time with breeding in the past that I almost expectit to go badly, I feel like I have already sentenced her to death.

This explains it a bit more of the litters that we have had in the past 18 months, it's from my blog

'*In the past 18 months we have done a lot ofbreeding, and it has always, every single time, had tragic consequences.

Litter 1 October 6th 2005 - 2 dead babies, 2 live babies.*

*Litter 2 OCtober 6th 2005 - one dead baby.*

*Litter 3 May 28th 2006 - one dead baby.*

*Litter 4 June 21st 2006 - 4 dead babies, dead doe.*

*Litter 5 July 17th 2006 - one live baby, three dead babies.*

*Litter 6 February 7th 2007 - 4 dead babies, dead doe.'*

Maybe it's easier to understand why I'm scared of it now.Yet grief is driving me on. I hate grief Goddammit.

Thank you for the reply 

You are right in what you say though. I have also tried to aim it sothat if she gives birth to a dead litter, or she dies, it won't happenon my brothers birthday, or on a day he has a GCSE exam. Talk aboutpessimism.


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## grumpybabies (May 5, 2007)

That's so sad i'm so sorry to hear all of thatbad luck. When i had my first litter i was petrified of everything, iwouldn't let anyone near the doe, or in the shed where she lives andwhen she had them, i counted the minutes that passed that theysurvived, i convinced myself that they would all be born dead or dieand i was hell to live with believe me, but just the few healthy babiesyou have must be worth all the pain?


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## Flashy (May 5, 2007)

The three live bunnies we had helped me fight through the pain that was going on.

But that doesn't make it easier that I killed those two does with myneed to breed, and the fact that I have probably knowingly killed thisdoe, just because I feel driven by an inner force to mate Sky.

I love my buns with all my heart, so so much, but right now, because wehave had a bad run here, there has been nothing positive happening, soI fully expect nothing positive to ever happen. Because each time Iseem to have hope, the rabbit seems to die. :?

So no hope seems safer. That's a crap attitude, but it protects me.

I'm glad that your litter went ok  Being a first time mum is verynerve wracking, so I'm so glad it all worked out. And also glad thatI'm not the only one that gets stressed about it.


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## grumpybabies (May 5, 2007)

I would say you can use my doe and keep thebabies after but i would get too attached! Where do you live in the Uk?and do you have a pic of sky?


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## Flashy (May 5, 2007)

lol, babies are SOOOOOOOO easy to get attached to.

Myavatar shows Sky and Moon, the two living babes from thefirst litter. Sky is the one with a half moustache and less spots. Hesa nethie dwarf. There are more pics of him as he looks now,onmy blog.

I live in East Anglia. What about you?


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## grumpybabies (May 5, 2007)

Sorry i should have looked there first! I am inDevon, but i used to live in your area!it is just my doe isso great with her babies it is a shame i can't help give you what youwant. what do you want to do with any babies of sky though?


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## TinysMom (May 5, 2007)

Flashy,

Are you breeding Netherland Dwarfs? (I don't know what they are called over there - sorry).

I have been told by people that NDs are one of the hardest to breed -what you need is a BUD (big ugly doe - that doesn't have the dwarfinggene) and a buck that has the dwarfing gene in order to be successfulat having litters. I've also been told that usually the first litter isborn dead or dies (this was from the breeder I bought my two ND bucksfrom). 

If you use a BUD (a BUB is a big ugly buck - mainly a buck that doesn'thave the dwarfing gene) you can have issues with babies that are toobig.

By the way - I don't mean they HAVE to be ugly - oftentimes they'recute. They're just called "BUB" and "BUD" to show that they don't carrythe dwarfing gene.

You may want to start a thread here in the rabbitry called "Tips forbreeding Netherland Dwarfs" and ask folks to help with tips..

Peg


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## CheyAutRanch (May 6, 2007)

I just wanted to say I'm sorry you've had suchbad luck, and I really hope it goes well for you. I know how you feel.I had my first foal ever due this year, a mini foal from an experiencedbroodmare. She lost her baby full term, and had an uterine infection,it was simply aweful and the guilt I have for that is horrible (eventhough there was nothing I could have done). I currently have 2 minimares and a mini donkey that I"m breeding and it scares the crap out ofme, I know I"m going to be a HUGE wreck in 11 months when they'redue... so, basically, *hugs* I know what you're feeling and Iwish you luck!!!!

Jessi


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## Raspberry82 (May 6, 2007)

I'm so sorry for the harships, flashy. I believe that when weare given immense gifts either with the people that come into our livesor the animals that do, the time they are with us serves an importantpurpose.. whatever they bring into our lives for however long wassomething we needed very much at that time. I think the above postingis very true in saying when you stop pushing, you will find what it isyou are looking for. But I do wish you the very best with this newlitter. Can you have more frequent vet checks to ease your mind withsandy? My only breeding experience is via horsesnot bunnies,but yes it is nerve-wracking which is why the vets phone is usuallyringing off the hook during that time .


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## polly (May 6, 2007)

Flashy, it is netherland dwarfs i breed and wehave had problems like you, we were beginning to think we were doingsomething wrong here is my list like you did

1st litter - 1 alive the rest stuck c section for Boo and neutered at the same time

30/5/06-2 stillborn 26/12/06 1 dead kit 13/2/07 4all dead We wer advised from a breeder over here to mate her againstraight away

molly had2 babies in December and died straight after shetook a seizure she had 2 babies 1 died 1 srrvived we fostered it toDorie who had 2 dead (it was her first litter)

Now we have had litters from 4 does all mated at the same time toincrease chances Lucy had 2 dead, squishy had 5 2 died 3 survived,Dorie had 3 all healthy and Evie had 1 alive

Lucy has been mated 3 times and has only had 1 baby that lived for a week only (wasn't getting enough milk) 

Its not easy, I have been told a few times that Netherlands are thehardest to breed, but i love them and their cheeky attitudes!!

Peg is right use a big doe Dorie is big and not a brill nethie but an amazing mum

Do you give your does Rennies? give them from around day 28 up to them kindling it increases their calcium levels.

Bring in a new doe to breed to your boys and look for a big one. new genes can help sometimes

I was getting incredibly dishearted and after Molly died and i saw it iwas a bit scared about another one having the same problem but theywere fine luckily

If you want to pm me i will help you as much as i can through the pregnancy


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## Flashy (May 6, 2007)

Thank you all so much for your replies.I'm going to try and go through them one by one, but this could make aloooooooooooooooooooong reply, so please bear with me 

Grumpybabies said




> Sorry i should have looked there first! I am inDevon, but i used to live in your area!it is just my doe isso great with her babies it is a shame i can't help give you what youwant. what do you want to do with any babies of skythough?



I will be keeping any babies that we have alive. I only everbreed to keep, not to sell, so I have to make sure that any I breed andlive have enough love,room and space here. 

Peg Said



> Are you breeding Netherland Dwarfs? (I don't know what they are called over there - sorry).
> 
> I have been told by people that NDs are one of the hardest to breed -what you need is a BUD (big ugly doe - that doesn't have the dwarfinggene) and a buck that has the dwarfing gene in order to be successfulat having litters. I've also been told that usually the first litter isborn dead or dies (this was from the breeder I bought my two ND bucksfrom).
> 
> ...




Yes, these are nethie dwarfs. the doe we are using is a big doe,larger, but not overweight, than she should be. The buck is about thesame size as her.

All those litters that I mentioned before have come from two does. Onedoe (Ozzy)did lose her first litter (that was the single babyon the 6th oct), and the other doe (Boofa) also had her first litter,but kept two of them.

Jessi Said



> I just wanted to say I'm sorry you've had such bad luck, and Ireally hope it goes well for you. I know how you feel. I had my firstfoal ever due this year, a mini foal from an experienced broodmare. Shelost her baby full term, and had an uterine infection, it was simplyaweful and the guilt I have for that is horrible (even though there wasnothing I could have done). I currently have 2 mini mares and a minidonkey that I"m breeding and it scares the crap out of me, I know I"mgoing to be a HUGE wreck in 11 months when they're due... so,basically, *hugs* I know what you're feeling and I wish you luck!!!!


Aw, I'm so sorry for your loss, I know how that feels. I reallyhope that things go more to plan with your current pregnancies. Andkeep us updated  I'll be thinking of you, and them 

Raspberry82 Said



> I'm so sorry for the harships, flashy. I believe that when weare given immense gifts either with the people that come into our livesor the animals that do, the time they are with us serves an importantpurpose.. whatever they bring into our lives for however long wassomething we needed very much at that time. I think the above postingis very true in saying when you stop pushing, you will find what it isyou are looking for. But I do wish you the very best with this newlitter. Can you have more frequent vet checks to ease your mind withsandy? My only breeding experience is via horsesnot bunnies,but yes it is nerve-wracking which is why the vets phone is usuallyringing off the hook during that time .




Thank you  You are right with what you said about being something weneeded at that time and I need this right now, lol, so I hope Sandy canco-operate with that need, lol. I'll think about taking her to the vetsmore frequently, I'm not too sure what they could do though.

Peg, Your's had some many questions and stuff I'm going to paste it andthen answer among your questions, so it should be easily identifiable.

I've been thinking about this thread for abit and I want to ask some questions. However, I want you to understandI'm not trying to be mean - or critical - and I honestly am NOT tryingto criticize. Ok? I'm trying to understand the comment I've quotedbelow.

Why do you feel like you need to carry on Sky's gene pool? Has he wonlots of awards or something? Is there something really unique abouthim? (I'm sorry - if you have a blog - I haven't read ityet). I kind of explainined this before, buthaving it all written down really upset me so I deleted it. I havenever showed a rabbit, and if you look at him, he is pretty mucheverything undesirable for a nethie. But yes, there is something veryspecial about him. I bought his father two years ago at atimewhen I was very much in need, and his father gave me a reason to fight,to survive, to carry on. He became my ultimate best friend, better thanany human. I always intended to buy a doe from the same breeder andthen breed spotty bunnies. I decided that I would breed his father(Flash) with the does I already had at home so, I did, getting two livebabies, one of which was Sky. Shortly after, Flash died in tragic andtotally unpresidented (for us) circumstances.

The only way I could find a way forward was to focus on Sky, and Moon(his sister). Sky and Moon gave me a focus, they kept me fighting whenthings were at their very worst. Firstly I was determined to breed fromone, or both, of them to 'find' Flash again. To bring him back. Iwanted to breed them both together, because two halfs (as in they wereboth half Flash), make a whole. I didn't do this, thankfully, as Iknow, given Moon as she was, she would have also died. I came torealise, in time, that breeding would never bring Flash back, but itcould, on the other hand, always keep a part of him alive, and keepinga part of him alive would keep me fighting.

So that's what I did. I was determined to get Flash a grandson, get Sky some children, have some beautifully cute babies, etc.

Sky is the most important thing in the world to me. He ties me to thisplace, and that has been even more true since Moon died from a fluketrauma with medicine. 

I know that grief is not necessarily the right reason to breed, but Iknow that any bunnies that are bred, if any, and live, will have aloving caring home here for all their years. I'm not going to sell orgive away any of the kits, and I am responsible. I know I said I'mbreeding him with anything and everything, but that's not true, it'sjust how I feel. We have two other does that we are not going to breedwith him for their sake, because they are very bonded together.

I have had such a bad run with my buns recently that I am terrified ofnot having any. I'm terrified of being alone again. I have never everhad any sort of love until Flash came into my life and I refuse to losethat again

I know that's pathetic, and selfish. But on the other hand, any rabbitI have will have a wonderful life. They get everything they need andmore, and as someone said on my blog, they do all look so comfortableand happy.

I also wanted to add on here that any bunny who comes here hasa loving home. They are all treated the same, as much as you can, andget their needs and wants met. Even the most vicious of bunnies(viciousness due to hormones) has had a loving home here. I would neverever give up on a bunny, fighting alongisde it until the very end.Sandy was very ready to be a mother again, she was clearly ready foranother litter, for the past few weeks, anytime she has seen a male hertail has gone straight up and she's backed towards him as best shecan. Whether or not Sandy produces any kits she will be lovedand cared for until she dies. To me, rabbits are a joy, and it makes mehappy to make them happy, and that's what I want to do. 

Also...why do you have to mate him with anyone and everyone?Wouldn't it be best to make sure to breed him to something who hasgenes that will work well with his? It would, yes,but we have limited choice. Having said that, we bought Sandyspecifically for breeding with him. We showed the breeder Sky, and sheselected a proven doe that should work with him.

I'm not saying "don't breed him" - and I hope you know that.I am not against people make the responsible choice to breed afterthey've read about it and prepared for it by having funds available fora vet visit (if need be) and have medciations on hand and are preparedto care for the babie if they aren't adopted....I understand the desireto breed - which is part of why I'm a breeder. Don'tworry, I have the funds to get medical attention if necessary, I willbe keeping all the buns so I don't need to worry about them going tobad homes, I am willing to hand rear any living buns if it comes tothat. Bunnies are my life, quite literally, and I would do anything forthem. I live on benefits (I'm signed off sick) and I never spend moneyon myself (other than rent and food money to my parents), it all goeson my buns and what they need, toys, essentials, runs, hutches,anything. They come first.

But while I have some VERY GOOD bucks - some from toplines...I have no desire to breed them to "everything and anything".This is what concerns me. Hopefully whatI said before about not really breeding him with anything andeverything makes sense to you? It is just how I feel. I desperatelywant to frantically breed him to get his children, but I'm not. the twoothers does we have will remain unbred from because they love eachother, even though they will probably make brilliant mums.

For some reason...you're having a problem with your litters.I think you need to step back for a moment and see if it could besomething with your buck.

Is he too big for your does? I would neverbreed a larger buck to a smaller doe (even if they're the same breed) -especially for a first time litter. The buck has alwaysbeen the same size as the doe. not smaller, and certainly neverbigger.

Are you working with the same breeds together? Yes, they are all nethie dwarfs.

Are you mating them enough? I was told with lionheads thatthe trick was to get at least three matings so the babies would beslightly smaller (because there would be more of them).The two times we had single litterswe only let them together for a short time, but after that weresearched further, and we now leave them in a run (always supervised)for a while, normally for a few hours, or shorter if they start toirritate each other, and then leave them next to each other in a runthat divides into two sections. He mates a good few times, so that wedo get more smaller kits as opposed to one giant baby.

Were the does the right age for breeding? Not too old or too young? Allthe buns have been young. Sky is 18 monthsold. Sandy is 15 months old. Boofa and Ozzy, the other does ranged from13 months old to 2 and a half when we bred from them.

I did some looking at your litterinformation. Out of six breedings - you had 18 babies total - 3 ofwhich were "live babies". Now I can understand why the babies inlitters two and three might have been dead - were they born late atall? Did the doe have problems with delivery? I can picture a singlebaby getting so large that it has problems with the birth.

You've never mentioned why you lost two does. Did they die after giving birth? During birth? While nursing? 

Litter 1 October 6th 2005 - 2 dead babies,2 live babies. This was Boofa's first litter, she gotone in the nest,and the other three were scattered around the hutch, but we managed torescue on of the kits and put it in the nest. (this was at 31 days)

Litter 2 OCtober 6th 2005 - one dead baby. Ozzy had, what can only bedescribed as a 'weasel' baby. I never saw it but apparently it wasmassive. (this was at 30 days)

Litter 3 May 28th 2006 - one dead baby. This again was a long loner baby. (this was at 31 days)

Litter 4 June 21st 2006 - 4 dead babies, dead doe. Ozzy had threebabies scattered around her hutch, but, presumably, had a stuck kit,and by the time we got her to the vet, and the vet had prepared her fora C-section, she had died.

Litter 5 July 17th 2006 - one live baby, three dead babies. There wasone absolutely whopping baby, thefirst baby born presumably, and it was huge and fat and round, notstretched out. The next one to come out was the live kit, in the nest.The next two also came in the nest, but they appeared to be identicaltwins, one was about an inch long, the other about 2 inchs and therewere only three placentas, so presumably the tiny two had been joinedby the same placenta and not got enough nutrients in the womb.

Litter 6 February 7th 2007 - 4 dead babies, dead doe. But this point,when she had these babies dead, as an experienced mum, we realised thatthis was going to be the last chance for her and we would not put herthrough this again. Boofa had four dead babies scattered everywhere.She was fine that night, eating, lively, etc, and the next day she wasthe same. The next day, hwoever, she was different. I don't know whatwas wrong, but I knew she wasn't right. Everyone told me I was beingparanoid, but I took her to the vets and the vets said her temp waslower than it should be. I discussed with the vet what it might be andshe said possibly kidney problems as Boofa was wet underneath. She diedthat night. With hindsight, the reason that probably so manybabies from her had been born dead could have been related to kidneyproblems. She has always drunk more than the other buns, but I justthought that was a quirk of her, something I have learnt from, believeme. I suspect that maybe something, tumour possibly, waspressing on her birth canal and suffocating the babies as they cameout. So this birth killed her, but not immediately.

Once again - I'm not trying to be critical - I hope you knowthat. But perhaps if we look at some of these questions, we can figureout why you're losing babies and does. It's ok, Iknow you're not being critical, but I have analysed these over and overin my head. I know that they are down to me not recognising certainsigns, etc and have learnt from every time. I also understand that justbecause I knew what was happening and why, people on here didn't, whichis why you asked the questions 

In all the breedings I've done (over 50) -I've lost one doe. Period. Many many babies.....due to stillbirths,first time mamas having them on the wire and other things. But only onedoe - and that was because we were having a problem with our feed anddidn't know it - and we suspect she had a retained kit that we didn'tknow about even though she had a shot of oxytocin just to make sureeverything was ok. 

So maybe we can help you figure out what is happening.

But my biggest question is why you feel youmust keep his gene pool going. Although I have bucks here that areawesome in looks - some have won awards, etc. - I don't have that driveto breed them to "anything and everything" and I don't have the drivethat they MUST be bred. They're wonderful - really they are.

But I wouldn't put a doe's life at stake simply to breed a buck. Ithink my does are just as wonderful as my bucks...sometimes moreso.

I understand that, I really do, and I hope I haveexlpained sufficiently. If you are not satisfied with my answer, thenask further questions if you want to 

I bought this doe, Sandy, knowing that shehas already had two litters, one she lost, and the second one sheraised four healthy kits. I know, deep down, that she is a proven doeand that there is no reason why things should go wrong, but we have hadsuch a run of bad luck, I just expect it to continue. I expect to comedown every morning and find dead bunnies, or ill bunnies. It's not agood way to live. 

I hope that's explained things a bit better Peg?

Polly Said





> Flashy, it is netherland dwarfs i breed and wehave had problems like you, we were beginning to think we were doingsomething wrong here is my list like you did
> 
> 1st litter - 1 alive the rest stuck c section for Boo and neutered at the same time
> 
> ...



I'm so so sorry for the struggles you have been having, but I am glad that you have had some success 

I have never heard of giving rennies. Do you mean like human anti-acid things? Or is that a stupid question?

Yes, you are right about bringing a new doe in, which is what we didwith Sandy, having her chosen for us, by an experienced breeder whoknew us, her and also had an idea about Sky, etc.

Thank you very much everyone for your replies, they are very much appreciated


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## polly (May 6, 2007)

Hi Flashy yes antacid tablets there has been afew comments on here about them sometimes the calcium levels dropbefore kindling so you give your buns 1/2 a rennies from day 28 and itboosts their calcium levels.

I don't know what other breeders will tell you but from everything ihave read and been told you should breed the mum for her first litterfrom 6 months i breed from 6-8 months depending on the does size andweight but if they are a year or older before they have their firstlitter then they are more prone to problems and small litters maybethis is a reason you have had problems 

hope that clears it up a little their have been some posts aboutantacid tablets the americans use tums but i was having trouble gettingthem so i get fruit rennies the bunnies love them lol Polly


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## TinysMom (May 6, 2007)

Flashy,

Thank you for understanding the purpose of my post. I wound up pullingit just in case it sounded critical - but my real purpose was to try tounderstand you and your breedings and to help you find a way to have itbe more successful.

As far as the "Rennies" - yes - they are the same thing as our antacidshere in the states. I have read that sometimes does (even with the bestfeed) can have their calcium levels drop shortly before delivery. Oneway to avoid this is to give the doe 1 Tums (fruit flavored usually iswhat they like) every day from day 28 till when they deliver. Basically- just enough "extra" calcium to keep them from having issues.

Although I use a good quality of feed and stuff - I go ahead and do itas a "preventitive measure" to keep my does from going into seizuresdue to low calcium levels...

As far as wanting to breed your buck to other does, I think I can kindof understand that too. But I was mainly trying to figure out if therewas something super special about him (like maybe he was a multi BOBwinner or something). Unfortunately, I had not yet read yourblog.,,,which I have now skimmed a bit of.

I think that the fact that another breeder who is more experienced thanyou picked your doe for you - should help you have more success. Thefact that she is experienced is a really good thing. The majority of mylosses are from first time mamas.

I also want to say one other thing...which is rambling - but oh well -that's the way I am. Sorry!

I understand your feeling about your rabbits. When I first got Tiny andthe 'tweebs (our 2 Nethies) - I had been going through a majordepression. The rabbits gave me a reason to get out of bed in themorning and become a functioning person again. Then we added thelionheads - and I fell in love. They not only helped me function - theymade me laugh again - and I just HAD to breed lionheads to bring thejoy into the lives of other people that they brought into my life.

After almost 2 years now, I'm getting fed up with breeding at times -not because of the rabbits - but because of fellow breeders and the wayI sometimes see animals handled or their attitude towards animals. ButI realize I'm different - to me - each of my rabbits is a "child" thatI'm responsible for. I don't just sell babies - I interview people.

I guess what I'm getting at is this - I understand the reason why youbreed. It isn't just to make "cute babies". I think I was asking aboutyour comment about breeding to everything because I wanted to make sureyou understood what drives you....just like I've had to sit down attime and ask myself why I'm doing this and what (if anything) I want tochange.

I really really hope your litter goes ok th is time. I would think thatthe fact that the doe is experienced will make a big difference....

Peg

P.S. What will be her due date again?


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## Flashy (May 6, 2007)

Hi Polly, thanks for the reply.

I will research that. We certainly have enough rennies around the house to be able to spare a few, lol.

With regards to kits, I always thought that it had to be within thefirst year that she had her first litter as otherwise the hip bones aretoo fixed in place to allow the kits through.

Sandy had her second litter in November, I believe, when she was justshort of 11 months old. And had already had a previous litter beforethat. So hopefully her hips are all good and her body is in good shapefor kindling a litter successfully 

Thanks for the reply.


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## Flashy (May 6, 2007)

Hi Peg,

Thanks for replying. You posted as I was replying to Polly 

I wouldn't mind someone being critical about me and what I do because Iknow that I have not really done anything majorly wrong, and if I had,then someone being critical and questioning it, can make a lot of gooddifferences, so don't ever worry about that. 

There is nothing super special about Sky other than he is a HUGEcharacter, a loving caring bunny and I would to put those super genesof his to good use. lol, if he ever won BOB or anything else it wouldhave been one shocker of a show, lol.

Yes, the breeder I got her from is excellent, and has helped me a lot.we have kept buns for 19 years, bred a bit, very successfully for thefirst few years and then did nothing for ages, just bought new buns. Soyes, we are not that experienced, hopefully that will change though.

lol, don't worry about rambling, I am an expert at that too, lol. I just appreciate the time you have taken to reply 

I'm glad that the rabbits helped you out of your depression, they havea wonderful healing quality like that. I don't really want to say toomuch but depression is only one of a host of mental health problemsthat I have, and yes, rabbits are great at helping to fight against allthat stuff.

I'm glad that you questioned me, because that shows an intelligentperson who questions. lol, it was probably more of an 'interview' likeyou said. I suspect that had you not thought I was 'good enough' tobreed bunnies, or didn't treat them properly, or whatever, you wouldprobably have said and tried to discourage me, or else pumped me withinfo, lol.

Questioning helps both the poster and the thread starter, so I'm gladyou did, and if you, or anyone else, ever wants to question again, thenI will answer 

Thanks for the time you took to reply, and I'm glad that you can understand what I am doing, and why 

I will keep everyone uptodate, probably via my blog, and maybe a postif something amazing happens and the kits and Sandy live 

I mated her the 4th, so 28 days from that will be 1st June. In myexperience with nethies it tends to happen the 31st? So maybe the 4thJune? But I am not sure if that is actually the correct gestation ofnethies. Lots of research has told me different things, so that date ismerely from experience.

Thanks again


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## polly (May 6, 2007)

Hi Flashy i meant to ask what you feed yourbunnies cause when my does are pregnant i move them from the brightgreen bag of burgess onto the burgess dwarf and junior food it has morecalcium and everything else in it its also a nice size for the babieswhen they are weaning onto food.

Also i agree on the 31 days mine are never earlier than that there is agood gestation table that you can print off atwww.islandgems.net 

hope that helps polly


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## Flashy (May 6, 2007)

I also use the bright green burgess, the deluxone, right? We have had Sandy about 6 weeks, and we have just finishedswitching her to that mix (although with hindsight maybe we should haveleft her with what she was on) so I can't imagine swapping her again,poor bunny, she'l be totally confused. But I do see what you are sayingabout the size of pellets and stuff.

I will have a look at that link, thanks.

Thank you so much for all your help.

Tracy


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## TinysMom (May 6, 2007)

From everything you've shared - I don't think itis your buck's fault at all. It sounds like you're doing everything youcan - why - you even went and did an emergency c-section for onelitter. Do you know how many new breeders won't do stuff like that? 
I think it probably has something to do with the fact that they'reNetherland Dwarfs. I don't breed them as I don't think I could dealwell with the losses of them. I have been told that they are just hardto get litters from...

Honestly, I think it is great that you love your does so much. I havetried to not fall quite as much in love with some does (in case I windup selling them) but the fact is - a large percentage of them becomepets in my heart. I have a hard time distinquishing between "this is abreeder bunny" and "this is a pet bunny" in my heart and mind. I do trythough - because I know that whenever I breed - there could be issues(especially with first time mamas) ~ so I try to prepare for the worstand pray for the best.

I'll be praying for you and this litter - and that the mama issuccessful at having (and raising) the litter. Perhaps the way for youto go is to get proven does for your breeding so that you won't sufferso many losses.

It sounds like you're doing a great job though...

Peg


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## Flashy (May 6, 2007)

Thanks Peg


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## Raspberry82 (May 7, 2007)

Hi flashy, I just wanted to tell youthat I take back what I said about not pushing, I didn't understandyour motivations behind breeding like I do now after reading youranswers to the other posts (and now i feel a little bad for saying soand i didn't mean to sound judgemental). I completely get it now and ialso see that your bunniesare very precious toyou.I especially can relate with how much Flashy meant toyou. Iwas going throughverydistressing/debilitating issues when i got Max and he hassince been the biggest joy in my life &amp;throughout myhealing, mymost belovedfriend,andhecould alwayslift my spirits and renewed mystrength no matter how hard things got. He's turned meintohis overly protective mum ever since, lol.

I'm so glad there arepeople on here that can helpyou through this next litterto facilitate it being a happyand wonderful success for you. Think positive thoughts, ok?!Please??I know that may sound unfeeling ornaivewith the past litters you went through, but honestly idon't mean it that way. Give sandy some love for me and tell hereveryday she's going to be a wonderful mom, perfectly healthy,andwith allhealthy babies! Maybe do some baby&amp;bunny momaffirmations beforeshegivesbirth?  She'll be in my thoughts as well.

Warm thoughts for you both,

Athy


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## Flashy (May 7, 2007)

To be honest raspberry I didn't see anythingwrong with your post. You were right with everything you said. So don'tfeel bad or anything.

You are right, I shouldn't push. Rabbits are not machines, they are loving caring beings and I need to remember that.

I already know that I don't deserve their presence and this thread haspretty much shown that. I need to love them for themselves.

Thank you for what you said before


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## Okinawabunnymamma (May 7, 2007)

:hug:I am sorry your have had all thisheart ache. I really do hope that everything turns out good this time.Keep everyone updated on things!


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## Flashy (May 7, 2007)

*Okinawabunnymamma wrote:*


> :hug:I am sorry your have had all this heart ache.I really do hope that everything turns out good this time. Keepeveryone updated on things!


Aw, thanks


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