# Coughing? (Resolved)



## BethM (May 15, 2009)

Ok, so last year I posted about Nick and his "coughing." 

Nick has been a sneezy bunny since the first day he came to live with us. I have always assumed he had allergies. He will sneeze more when he's had his nose in the hay bin, or in a dusty corner. He will occasionally have a "moist" nose, but never any discharge (just moisture that will come out while actually sneezing). He has never had matted fur on his paws.

Last year, I got very concerned, because he started sometimes making a weird noise like a cough. I don't know if bunnies can actually cough or not, but the noise was like a squeaky, wheezy, sneeze. 
After he did this a couple times, I took him in to see the vet. The vet did not take a culture, as there was no wet or dry discharge while Nick was there. The vet said Nick seemed quite healthy, other than having a slight congestion. He said the congestion didn't sound serious, but was more congestion than he liked to hear. He sent us home with some Baytril. I think the prescription was for 10 or 14 days, I can't remember. It was the ground up stuff in suspension, I think. 
I gave Nick the entire course of Baytril. I know Baytril has sometimes been overused, but none of my rabbits had used it in the 2+ years we've had them. The cough went away completely at that point, and the sneezing was very much reduced. 

Since then, Nick's sneezing has gradually been on the increase again. It really got going a month or so ago, when spring trees started blooming. (I was miserable then, too.) In the last few days, the "cough" has returned. He doesn't do it often, maybe two coughs in an evening, close together, but not every evening. He "coughed" tonight, after he was lying on a rug in the bunny condo that is covered with fur. 
(Nick is a Holland Lop mix, and has the typical flattened face. He prefers to lie down totally stretched out, with his chin on the ground.)

Nick has been eating normally, and had the same activity level as usual.

The weather has been strange this last week. Cool and rainy alternating with hot. Dry and steamy in the same day. In fact, a huge weather system moved in this afternoon, and I've been slightly dizzy for a few hours. The only thing I can attribute that to is the change in the barometric pressure. the temperature dropped 20 degrees in about 2 hours. 

The only other thing that has changed lately is that we switched litter. We were using Feline Pine/ExquisiCat. We switched to Cozy 'n' Fresh, purchased at the Tractor Supply Company. It is a kiln-dried, pelleted pine litter that supposedly has "activated carbon to reduce odor." Made by the same company that makes Equine Fresh. It does smell different than Feline Pine. Their litter box has a built-in grate, so the bunnies never come into actual contact with the litter. (We've been using this for about a month. Nick's sneeze has been on the increase since February.)

Anyway. Should I be rushing him in to the vet? 

I plan sifting the pellet food from now on. Also, I will be getting as much fur as possible off of their rugs tomorrow. In about 6 weeks, we are moving out of our terribly dusty apartment with the awful carpet into a house with all wood floors; I am hoping this will help my allergies, and Nick's as well.


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## tonyshuman (May 15, 2009)

You know, I don't know. However, at the vet yesterday I mentioned that Muffin has been found to have a very slight heart murmur and the vet asked if she ever coughed or seemed out of breath. She will squeak or snort once in a while as she's inhaling a favorite food, but never cough. Do you think Nick might have shortness of breath? I would assume the vet has listened closely to his heart, however.

It's possible that the seasonal change led to another URI, and not just allergies. I would tend to think that since he's had it before, and it improved with antibiotics, it's just a recurrence of the same infection, previously kept in check by his immune system, and now coming out due to stresses of weather change. It would be best to try to treat it again, but not use Baytril, since the bacteria are very likely to be resistant to it as they have already survived a treatment with it.


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## Amy27 (May 15, 2009)

Did Nick happen to have surgery right before coming to you? 

I ask because the Little Bunny had something like you are describing after she was spayed. It ended up being from a med they put up her nose that must have damaged the tissue and took a long time to heal, over a year.


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## BethM (May 15, 2009)

The only surgery Nick had was his neuter. He and Amelia were in foster care for about a year before we adopted them, so it had been almost a year since his neuter. After we adopted them, we kept going to the same vet, so I have seen his vet records, and there were no other illnesses or treatments. 

At the time we adopted, our HRS group included a free basic exam with the adoption. Nick and Amelia both checked out fine.


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## Amy27 (May 15, 2009)

That was my only idea Beth lol. I do hope you figure it out. I know that has to be frustrating. Good luck


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## BethM (May 15, 2009)

Thanks, Claire and Amy.


I guess I will get up early tomorrow and try to get him in to the vet. The clinic opens at 8, but the staff gets there at 7 to take calls. Hopefully I will be able to get an actual appointment. Poor guy gets so stressed out from vet trips, I don't want to take him in as a drop-off.


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## pla725 (May 16, 2009)

Err on the side of caution. I would take him to the vet. 

The second night I had Sawyer he woke me up in the middle of night by what I can only describe as "barking". I couldn't image why my neighbor's dog carrying on. Then I realize it was Sawyer. It was one of the funniest sounds I heard. I felt bad but I couldn't help but laugh. He did have an URI.


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## Amy27 (May 16, 2009)

Keep us update tomorrow when you take him to the vet. I hope they find some answers tomorrow. Are they able to test the mucous in side the nose? I know it was done on the Little Bunny but she wasn't a great vet either. I know this can be painful for them depending on how small they are and the size of the swab they use. Just an idea when you go. I'll be thinking about you guys. 

Pla, since I have never heard something resembling a bark from my rabbits that is funny.


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## BethM (May 16, 2009)

Thanks, Amy. 

I will post what happens tomorrow. If they can't get him a regular appointment tomorrow, or at least let me wait with him, I will try to schedule for Monday evening. (They're open until 8pm on Mondays.) 
I really don't think Nick would do well as a drop-off. Going to the vet stresses him out enough as it is. Amelia has to go with him, even though she gets really grumpy, I think it helps him to have her there. 

Also, the drop-off costs just as much as the regular appointment, but I don't get to be there with him, and only get a short summary over the phone. My vet is really great, and I trust him, but I would rather be there during the exam.

I don't think Nick likes me much, but at least I'm a familiar presence for him.


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## Maureen Las (May 16, 2009)

I agree with Cliare that if this ( or something similar )responded to an antibiotic at one point in the past that it is most likely bacterial 
I had a bun that as she aged began to get recurring bouts of heavy breathing/wheezing. She was very incomfortable when this occurred soI would always take her to the vet immediately; I was always given baytril in one form or another and thiscleared up about 3-4 times in about 1.5 yr period before the baytrilhad no effect at all. 
the vet here eventually gave me zithromax but would not give me the proper dosage for a rabbit ; she improved somewhat on the lowerd dosage of zithromax but did not fully recover until I treated myself with bicillin. I doubtthat your bun is having an allergic response but think that she has a begiining or moderate ( URI in chest )
I would take her to the vet. 
My rabbits could not have a culture done as she had no discharge ; the vet would have had to do a tracheal wash which would have been under anesthesia and I couldn't risk that as she was having difficulty breathing anyway.


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## BethM (May 16, 2009)

Well, I called my vet this morning as soon as they opened. 
Somehow, they don't have either of their exotics vets on staff today. :X
The receptionist said that because they haven't seen Nick since November (when he last was seen for the same symptoms), and there's no exotics vet on staff, they can't even refill the Baytril, much less prescribe zithromax.

Also, since neither vet is on staff, I can't take Nick in to be seen today.

My choice was to take him to a completely different vet that I've never been to, or to wait until Monday.
Since Nick seems in high spirits today, and has been super-active, I made an appointment for Monday. I'll be keeping a close eye on him all weekend.


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## Maureen Las (May 16, 2009)

That sounds OK ; it doesn't sound like he is in an emergency situation

hope that he remains stable until Mon.


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## BethM (May 16, 2009)

*angieluv wrote: *


> That sounds OK ; it doesn't sound like he is in an emergency situation
> 
> hope that he remains stable until Mon.


I hope so, too.


:nerves1


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## Amy27 (May 17, 2009)

I am sorry you didn't get to take Nick in. I would have waited like you did. How did he do over the weekend?


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## BethM (May 17, 2009)

Thanks for asking, Amy.

Nick seems to be doing ok. He's been eating like a champ, and he was out doing the Bunny 500 around the apartment this morning. I guess he isn't feeling too bad!

If he had been acting like he felt sick, I would have gone ahead and taken him to the other vet. I was very irritated that there would be a day that neither rabbit-savvy vet was on staff. 

His appointment is for 6:30 tomorrow evening. Hopefully, the vet will be able to give me something other than Baytril.


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## Maureen Las (May 17, 2009)

Hi 
Wanted to wish you well with your appointment. If the vet is insistent on baytril ( I am hopeful that you can get zithromax or chloramphenical or Convenia or bicillin ) then at least push for the injectable baytrilwhich works better than orally.
Ihave had to struggle with vets for meds here which is a very difficult task ' I have often not gotten what I asked for. Initially (for my rabbits anyway) the baytril is effective but the respiratory problem reoccurs only becoming more resistant to it. 

Ihope that you do better than me 

just do the best that you can........


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## BethM (May 18, 2009)

*angieluv wrote: *


> Hi
> Wanted to wish you well with your appointment. If the vet is insistent on baytril ( I am hopeful that you can get zithromax or chloramphenical or Convenia or bicillin ) then at least push for the injectable baytrilwhich works better than orally.
> Ihave had to struggle with vets for meds here which is a very difficult task ' I have often not gotten what I asked for. Initially (for my rabbits anyway) the baytril is effective but the respiratory problem reoccurs only becoming more resistant to it.
> 
> ...


Thanks! 
If the vet tries to give me oral Baytril again, I am not above dropping the name of my HRS chapter manager to get something different. She has worked very closely with the other rabbit vet at that clinic for many years. I haven't done it in the past, but if that's what it takes to get Nick better meds...... I really don't want this to become a chronic problem.

My HRS friend did tell me last time, Nick should have been given zithromax. I sort of pushed it out of my mind when Nick seemed to get better after the Baytril. 

I keep trying to see the more experienced guy, but he's never there when I need to take my bunnies in, so I get the vet with only a couple years experience with rabbits. Overall, he's very good, but, well, inexperienced. I think he's hesitant to try the more aggressive treatments, preferring to start out more cautiously. 
(Poor guy, he's allergic to rabbits, and Nick sheds like a madman when he goes in there! He was very good when Nick had stasis, though, even calling me back personally the next day to check on him.)


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## tonyshuman (May 18, 2009)

I too would have waited. I hope they can figure out what's going on.


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## BethM (May 18, 2009)

I am just back from the vet clinic.

The doctor said Nick's lungs were mostly fine, there was some congestion towards the front of the lungs, but he sounded mostly clear towards the back. 
The doctor did want to give Baytril again, reasoning that Nick did respond to it last time, maybe continuing the course of treatment for a week longer than normal. I brought up my concerns about resistance, and asked if the zithromax, or something else, might be appropriate. He said that would be fine, and also mentioned something else, that I don't remember the name of. He said it was in the same class as Baytril, and was being used widely in Europe. 

Anyway, he gave me the zithromax, on the condition that if Nick doesn't start showing some improvement fairly quickly, that we switch back to the Baytril. He didn't want Nick to get worse, waiting for the zithromax to work. 

So, I've got zithromax in a 2.5% suspension. I am to give 1cc every day for 5 days; then 1cc every other day for 10 days; then 1cc every third day for 6 days. (Nick weighs 4 pounds, 9.5 oz.)
They only had enough on hand to give me half the meds today, and I am to call in when I'm almost out to pick up the rest.


Although I am glad that the doctor was willing to give me the meds I asked for, he always seems a little unsure off himself. He said we could choose between the three meds (Baytril, Zithromax, and the other one I can't remember), and go from there. I wish he had had a bit of a stronger opinion, other than just wanting to fall back on the Baytril again.


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## tonyshuman (May 18, 2009)

Whew. At least it's mostly in the front of the lungs andyou got some zithromax. It's too bad your vet isn't too confident in himself treating rabbits. It would also worry me a bit. Hopefully he can learn more and be more confident in his skills.


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## Amy27 (May 18, 2009)

I am glad you got the Zithromax for Nick. I understand how you feel about your vet. My old vet use to be like that. It made me question her when she didn't sound confident in what she was saying. I am going to her because I expected her to know what she talking about. 

Keep us updated on how Nick does on the Zithromax. Does the vet think the coughing was from the fluid in the front of the lungs?


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## BethM (May 18, 2009)

*tonyshuman wrote: *


> Whew. At least it's mostly in the front of the lungs andyou got some zithromax. It's too bad your vet isn't too confident in himself treating rabbits. It would also worry me a bit. Hopefully he can learn more and be more confident in his skills.


Yeah. It seems like he just needs more experience. Also, he seems to be fine working with the animals, just not so much when it comes to talking with the people. He may have just been uncomfortable with someone asking for something specific. 

I may be completely misjudging him. I do really like him, and he seems competent. I mentioned before, he was VERY good when Nick had stasis, and not hesitant at all on the treatment. Nick got pain meds, subq fluids, and an x-ray.


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## BethM (May 18, 2009)

*Amy27 wrote: *


> I am glad you got the Zithromax for Nick. I understand how you feel about your vet. My old vet use to be like that. It made me question her when she didn't sound confident in what she was saying. I am going to her because I expected her to know what she talking about.
> 
> Keep us updated on how Nick does on the Zithromax. Does the vet think the coughing was from the fluid in the front of the lungs?


Thanks, Amy. 

The vet thought this might be pasturella, not completely cured by the Baytril. He thought that a longer Baytril treatment might help.
I talked about how Nick seems to be worse when we're getting the up and down weather patterns. He was really bad on Friday, when we had a huge storm system move in. (The change in barometric pressure actually made me feel slightly dizzy for several hours, starting right before the storm hit.) He seemed to agree that the weather might cause stress that could aggravate symptoms.

He did say that he can't be sure, without doing a culture, what it was. The fur around Nick's nose looks like it had been wet earlier today, but it wasn't wet while I was at the vet. He offered to to an x-ray, but we opted out. (If Nick were to get worse, we would go ahead with that.)

It seems like the doctor is more confident about rabbits that are presenting more severe symptoms? Maybe he's more unsure about less severe problems. He also started to seem less sure/slightly defensive as soon as I started to ask about specific meds. Overall, though, I am not UNhappy with him.


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## BethM (May 19, 2009)

We got home from the vet at 7:30. I gave Nick his first dose of zithromax. After I released him, he ran straight for the top level of his condo, and hasn't come down since. :nerves1 Amelia has gone up a couple times to check on him, but is otherwise going about her business.

The vet said 1cc, so that's what I gave. Should I be looking for any particular side effects? 

I am hoping he is just angry at me. He's the kind of bunny who will refuse all treats after a nail trim, but I'm worried that, in 3 hours, he hasn't come down for hay/water/litter box.


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## Maureen Las (May 19, 2009)

It is good that you got the zithromax although it can affect appetite. I used it on one of mine and she continued to eat but probably a little less than normal. 

it is not unusual for them to want to give baytril again. Randy is SO right that so many doctors are SO uncomfortable trying anything else .

Was the other drug Ciprofloxicin ?
can you figure out how many mg the doctor wants to give daily or at least how many mg in a ml 

My vet here wouldn't give me a strong enough dose so I am just curious


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## BethM (May 19, 2009)

*angieluv wrote: *


> It is good that you got the zithromax although it can affect appetite. I used it on one of mine and she continued to eat but probably a little less than normal.
> 
> it is not unusual for them to want to give baytril again. Randy is SO right that so many doctors are SO uncomfortable trying anything else .
> 
> ...


I just know that the bottle says 2.5% solution (they ground and mixed the tablets for me), and I'm supposed to give 1 cc. I'm not smart enough to figure out the mg's. :?
Nick weighs 4 pounds, 9.5 ounces.

The other drug mentioned did start with a c or s, but I don't think it was Cipro. It was 2 or 3 syllables, I think, but I wasn't sure if it was a trade or generic name. (I was trying to remember it, but my husband launched into some thing about how he was confused by the generic "azrithromycin," as Zithromax was new when he worked in a pharmacy, years ago. He kept going on and on about it. Grr.) 

I left a timothy hay cube up there , but he hasn't touched it. The cubes are old, so I will probably take it out before I go to bed, and replace it with a handful of their usual hay. I tried to tempt him with a sprig of parsley. At first, he turned away from it. I tapped him on the forehead with it until he decided to punish it by taking a few bites. Then he stopped eating, though, and started digging on the rug that's up there. Truly angry.

He keeps shifting positions. He'll stretch out frog-style for 5 or 10 minutes. Then sit up tall. Then loaf. Right now, he's sort of a stretched-out loaf, with his eyes half closed. (Frog-style is his normal preferred position.) His nose keeps stopping moving, as though he's trying to nap.

I want to stay up with him, but maybe he's not coming down because I'm in the room? Will set the alarm to get up and check on him a few times in the night.


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## Maureen Las (May 19, 2009)

There is not enough info to figure out the mg anyway ; I gave an oral suspension and not the tablets. 

Sometimes when a rabbit starts an antibiotic there is a period of time when the rabbit will feel worse because the bacteria are dying . 

You may have to try to encourage him to eat and drink for a few days butI would give this medication a good try.
I know you'll keep us updated


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## BethM (May 19, 2009)

Last night, I got really excited that Nick ran down and over to me when it was bedtime treat time. I only offered him a small piece of dried papaya (he usually gets papaya, and a raisin as well). He sniffed it, then ran back into the condo without eating it. I left it in there, and it is gone this morning. (Amelia doesn't like them.) I also put an extra hay rack up there, but I can't tell if he ate any of it. Forgot to take the hay cube out, and someone ate half of that, but it could have been Amelia.

I got up at 2:30 to check on him. He was in the same spot as he was when I went to bed, just facing the opposite direction. Amelia was snuggled up to him.
He seemed ok, so I went back to bed.

Got up early (5:30 instead of 6:15). The were still up there. When I opened the gate, Nick ran out and into the Cottontail Cottage, and spent 10 minutes or so tearing up cardboard, then ran back to the top floor of his condo. I didn't want to overload him with sugar, so I only offered him a tiny taste of his morning banana, which he took from me, then turned his back on me to eat it.

I tried to offer him some veggies, but he rubbed his nose all over them and then went into the corner, hunched up, and thumped at me. Then Amelia came over, lay down next to him, and ate his veggies. :grumpy:

Can't tell if he's had any water. There is a pile of very small poops in the litter box that might be his. 

I wonder if he also maybe feels betrayed. He's always been the kind of bunny that just doesn't want to be touched/petted. We've had them over 2 years, and he still won't let Jason touch him. In the last few months, though, he's been allowing me to put him for short periods of time, sometimes even presenting when I would do it. For most of the vet visit yesterday, when he was up on the table, he spent most of the time with his head buried up against me. Now, when he sees me coming, he thumps and tries to hunch up in the corner. 

I feel so awful, he was running around so joyfully through the weekend. 

Trying to decide if I want to try to get some pedialyte into him (if I have some). Doing that might make him more upset, then he really won't be eating today. On the other hand, I don't know if he's had any water all night.


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## BethM (May 19, 2009)

I decided to go ahead and syringe some fluids, just to make sure he's . I had a bottle of unflavored pedialyte in the rabbit medical box, so I gave him some of that, mixed about half with plain water. Not sure how much he actually drank, as he let a lot of it just run out of his mouth as I was squirting it in. I think I filled the 3cc syringe 5 times, but at least half of it ended up on the floor.

If nothing else, it did get him out and moving a little bit. Had to chase him around the apartment with the towel for 5 minutes, he's an expert at evading capture.

Hopefully he will be fine through the day.
Wish I had one of those webcams, so I could watch him from work.


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## Maureen Las (May 19, 2009)

Ithink that it was good to syringe pedialyte ; if he is not eating tonight and you try different thingsI might syringe him food as it's possible that the zithromax is affecting his appetite in combination with not feeling 100% and also being upset with you. I know that you will try tasty foods before you syringe anything.
is he coughing?


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## BethM (May 19, 2009)

*angieluv wrote: *


> Ithink that it was good to syringe pedialyte ; if he is not eating tonight and you try different thingsI might syringe him food as it's possible that the zithromax is affecting his appetite in combination with not feeling 100% and also being upset with you. I know that you will try tasty foods before you syringe anything.
> is he coughing?



I have not heard him cough since Friday. But that doesn't mean he isn't doing it at night, or when I'm not around.

Nick did not seem interested in coming out of the condo for salad this morning. I put a handful in the condo near him, though I suspect greedy Amelia might eat it. (I have thought about seperating them, so I can monitor his eating, but at this point he seems to be comforted when she is snuggling with him.)

I will offer pellets tonight at the normal time, and if he doesn't seem interested, I will try syringing food. I've got some assorted baby food vegetable in my first aid box, carrots, squash, as well as some canned pumpkin, that I can try. Last time I needed to syringe food, he didn't seem to like anything I tried.

I have a tube of NutriCal in my fridge from the last time he was sick, if it comes to that. Does that go bad, and should I get a brand new tube, or can I use the old stuff? Not sure if it's been opened or not. Also, should I pick up some BeneBac? If so, should I get the powder or tube? "Regular" or "Small Mammal"?

Sorry for all the questions. I am terribly worried about my Nick.


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## Maureen Las (May 19, 2009)

if you know he likes the benebac gel then get that but my buns despise the gel ; I usually buy the powder for small mammals and manage to get the powder and mix it with banana

I would say that if the nutrical has been refrigerated it is probably fine but you will have to let it sit out because it will be hard..

make sure that you have pedialyte also 

and you can also make a pellet slurry for syringe feeding if you don't have critical care. 
maybe mix some of that with the pure pumpkin ; very messy to serve. 
he should be eating on his own in a few days ..

if he is eating but not as much I would not syringe feed him but wait a day and see. 
like I said my girl ate but she ate a little less than normal but did OK on the med.


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## BethM (May 19, 2009)

Ok, thank you. 

I have not tried the BeneBac before, I didn't learn about that until after he had come out of stasis. Will keep it in mind, and add it to my shopping list to add to the first aid box. 

Just opened a big bottle of pedialyte this morning, so I've got plenty of that. Again, since I opened it, it's now on my list to replace.

I don't have any critical care, I don't think I can buy it locally. 

I will give him an hour or so after pellets are put out to see if he eats on his own. (He usually eats first, chasing Amelia away until he's had some.) If not, I will try making a pellet slurry, and mix in some pumpkin. Last time I had to syringe feed, Nick managed to spit just about everything out. Pellet slurry, canned pumpkin, baby food squash, all over my floor! I tried mashing it into the fur on his front paws, so he'd have to clean it off, but he somehow managed to shake most of it off. Because he did take his tiny banana bite this morning, I may try to add just a touch of banana to make it more attractive. Not too much, don't want a sugar overload.


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## tonyshuman (May 19, 2009)

I think Bene-Bac would be a good thing, same for the Nutri-Cal. My guys love the dog Bene-Bac gel. I have heard that the small animal one is the same thing but more expensive. Nutri-cal should get his appetite going, and Bene-Bac can make his tummy more comfortable. Good luck...


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## BethM (May 19, 2009)

Ok, next question.

I got home from work at about 5, and put the pellets out. Nick was napping in his house, but as soon as he saw me, he ran up to the top floor of the condo and started thumping at me.

I went out to find some BeneBac. (The PetCo near me doesn't have it. The PetSmart that's a few miles away had it, it was on clearance and I got the last two packs of the gel. No powder.)

It is now almost 7, and I will be giving the next dose of zithromax. It does *not* look like Nick has eaten any pellets. About a quarter of the salad was left on the floor from this morning, as well. I am about to mix up some pellet slurry. 

Should I try to feed him at the same time as I give him the meds? I hate to catch him twice in one night, it stresses him out so much. Meds first, then food?

*sigh* My nerves are shot.


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## tonyshuman (May 19, 2009)

I don't see why not to feed at the same time that you give meds.


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## BethM (May 19, 2009)

*tonyshuman wrote: *


> I don't see why not to feed at the same time that you give meds.


I was able to get him to take a fair amount of pellet-and-pumpkin slurry. Also the meds.

Will save the BeneBac for tomorrow morning.

Will also try to give him some more greens this evening.


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## Maureen Las (May 19, 2009)

Because of the effect of the antibiotic on the bacteria he may not have much of an appetite for a few days and/ or the zithromax is decreasing it. 
if you can keep up the feedings for a few days to see if this resolves itself it would be good...
if the Zithromax decreases his appetite altogether after a few days , however, you may have to go with another med...
but just put that on the back burner for now...


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## Amy27 (May 20, 2009)

Beth, I don't have any advice, it sounds like you are doing an amazing job taking care of Nick. I just wanted you to know that I am thinking about you and Nick and hope Nick starts eating and getting better soon. Keep us posted.


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## BethM (May 20, 2009)

Amy, thank you so much!

Last night, I did see Nick use the litter box. The poops were about half normal size, and very moist. So, it looks like he's not been eating much, if any, hay, but at least he's got some movement going on in there.

Before bed, I managed to trick him into eating a few veggies. He was hiding in his house, so I just kept holding the food in there and sort of waving it around. At first, he tried to grab it and toss it out, but I kept putting it back in. I guess he decided that the best way to get rid of it was to just eat it. I got him to eat one med. parsley stalk, about 5 pieces of cilantro, and half a leaf of Romaine. 
(Amelia got really angry, because I wouldn't let her eat the veggies. So she wiped her nose on my bare feet, then proceeded to dig on them. Ouch!)

I didn't see any new poops this morning. 

Got up early again. Nick refused his tiny piece of banana. I got Nick to take some Bene-Bac gel. Wasn't sure how much to give, but I think I used most of the tube. Some ended up on the floor. Syringed pedialyte again. Same as yesterday, I used 15cc's total, but 3/4 to 1/2 of that was spit out on the floor. Then I smeared a pea-sized lump of Nutri-Cal on the top of his paw, which he really got upset about. He's grooming himself right now, so at least he will get some calories.

Nick keeps trying to find new places to hide and watch out for me.


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## Maureen Las (May 20, 2009)

You're doing really well Beth
but believe me I know how hard it is to do this kind of feeding. 
try to think of anything else that he maylike to eat and has had in the past.

When I was giving zithromax I gave my girl a little alfalfa hay also because she ate it better
Also it might be worth it to invest in a cheap scale. i think Claire said that you could get one at Walmart. That way you could keep track of any wt loss.


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## BethM (May 20, 2009)

*angieluv wrote: *


> You're doing really well Beth
> but believe me I know how hard it is to do this kind of feeding.
> try to think of anything else that he maylike to eat and has had in the past.
> 
> ...



A friend of mine gave me some alfalfa hay cubes over the weekend. She said she got a huge bag of them for her horse, and gave me a few as a bunny treat. Since these are made for horses, they should be safe for the rabbits, right? I don't know what brand they are, haven't seen the bag. 

He seemed to take the pellet-pumpkin slurry pretty easy last night. Today, I will do the same as yesterday, put pellets out, then if he doesn't eat on his own, I will mix up some slurry to give him with his meds. Then I will vex him with veggies later, see if he falls for that again. (If he won't take the veg, I may do a secondslurry feeding.) When he had stasis, he would eat fresh mint. My plant is still really small, but I might swing by the store tonight and see if I can find a packet of that.Should helpcalm his tummy, as well. 

I already have a digital kitchen scale that weighs up to 11 pounds, I think. I will watch his weight. Great idea.

Last night, I left the living room for awhile, and when I came back in,Nick was sitting at the water bowl with his face down. When he saw me, he stared at me for awhile, then ran off to hide, so I'm not sure how much, if any, he drank before I came in. But it seems like he had a desire to drink.This was shortly before I went to bed. His skin would not "tent" this morning, so I am hoping he is taking in more fluids than just what I am giving him.


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## Maureen Las (May 20, 2009)

You're doing great..
I would try to get more pedialyte into him; I actually use the flavored because they drink it out of a syringe and/ or flavor the water with apple juice; they usually suck it up..
I think the hay cubes are fine as long as they are fresh..
a few of my rabbit will eat a little wamed pumpkin out of a bowl.


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## tonyshuman (May 20, 2009)

Good job with the feedings. It sounds like he's being a real stinker. The hay cubes should be great--my guys go nuts for alfalfa cubes that they get as a treat. Hoping his appetite improves...


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## BethM (May 20, 2009)

I think I have a "baby" 100% apple juice in my first aid box, I will try that, as well. He wouldn't take it when he had stasis. At that time, I just went with the unflavored, since he fought everything equally. (He also refused pumpkin and pineapple puree then. Everything I tried, he either tipped the dish over, or if I syringed it, he spit out as much as he could.) I also have the baby food carrots that I might try. (He doesn't like the squash.)

Will try to give him an alfalfa cube when I get home. They smell fresh.

Amelia can't finish a whole salad on her own, and she won't eat wilted stuff, so I should be able to tell if he eats any of the salad. (I don't think he did yesterday, there was some left over.)

Nick certainly is one stubborn little bunny.


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## BethM (May 21, 2009)

Last night, Nick seemed more "down" than he had been, and that really upset me. Could barely sleep. 
I found some mint at the store, and he did take 3 or 4 pieces. He was very angry when I was putting the veg in his house with him, so much so that he lightly nipped my hand. He never nips. He just barely put his teeth on my hand, but didn't bite down, and then he sort of jumped back like he was startled. Did this twice.
Pooped once in the box, and there are some little poops in his house. Saw him eat one piece of hay.

This morning he wouldn't take his banana, he ran over and sniffed it, barely tasted it, then ran away. He was full of energy, though. He came right out when I opened the pen, started tearing up (and eating a bit) cardboard. Ran around the edges of every room, checking things out. Took me almost 10 minutes to catch him, he was running like crazy.

Bene-Bac, Pedialyte, and Nutrical again this morning. Also got about 2cc's of baby food carrots in him, but he didn't like it and now his chest is stained orange from all the stuff he spit out. 

He's now resting in his usual position, legs straight out behind him.

I am tempted to give him a day off from the meds. My vet said to give it to him every day for 5 days, then every other day for 10 days. Nick's had 3 days in a row. I don't want to give up on the treatment, sneezing almost stopped, but I really want him to be eating and drinking again. 

Exhausted today from not enough sleep.


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## Maureen Las (May 21, 2009)

I am so sorry Beth that you are so exhausted; you are taking wonderful care of him..

I would encourage you not to skip a day of medsyet.; if he is showing more energy that is really good

just feed him when you get home as much as you can and then go to bed; he will be OK if you sleep through if you feed him and hydrate him first. 

You are such an excellent mom/ nurse that you are burning yourself out.

you don't have to check him every few hours tonight.

'hugs"
Maureen


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## tonyshuman (May 21, 2009)

Yeah, it sounds good that he had some energy this morning. Don't worry if you feel you're making him mad at you--once he's feeling better, you can regain his trust. I agree that you don't need to check him every few hours, as long as he's getting something into him, and something is coming out. I too would keep up with the meds for a couple more days. It sounds like he's improving a lot, and if you stop now, it might not have completely killed the infection yet.

C'mon little dude, eat something!


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## BethM (May 21, 2009)

Thank you for the voices of reason.

I doubt I'll be sleeping very well until he's better, just because I'm a worrier, and anything like this keeps me from sleeping very well, even when I'm tired. (Plus, we close on our house next week, so I'm anxious about that on top of everything.)

I feel a little better about Nick this evening. 

I got Jason to swing by his mom's house to pick some fresh mint after work today. Nick like what I gave him yesterday, but the grocery store stuff was just mediocre in quality, and not much in the package. (Up to now, Jason's only contribution was that he'd occasionally look over at Nick and whine "awwwwww, poor guy!")
Anyway, Nick ate two small handfuls of mint leaves and some tender stems right away. 

Also, I have seen him run out to the pellet bowl twice. He only ate one mouthful each time, but something is better than nothing. 

I gave him his meds, along with a bit of pellet-pumpkin slurry. Because he has eaten some on his own this evening, I gave a bit less slurry today. Still hoping he'll eat some hay.

A few minutes ago, he begged to come out of the pen, and is now tearing up and chewing cardboard. (He did that a lot when he had stasis, too.) I'm going to let him do it for a few more minutes, then shoo him away from it. 

I am not really concerned about him being angry with me in particular. (It is a little sad, since he was just starting to warm up to me.) Mostly I am just concerned with making him angry/upset in general. It will be ok, though, in the long run. Getting him healthy is the important thing right now.


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## kirbyultra (May 21, 2009)

Don't worry Beth. He might not like your doing your necessary mommy things, but he knows you're taking care of him. He will appreciate you so much more when he gets out of his funk. I'm sure of it! 

Hang in there, and don't forget to take care of yourself, too!


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## BethM (May 22, 2009)

Well, Nick did really well yesterday. Last night, he was really active, and ate quite a bit of food on his own.

This morning, he fought the fluids. He was like a wild beast. Bit my arm pretty hard. It was good (because he his energy was up) and bad (made it difficult on me, and when he's like that I'm always afraid he'll hurt himself). 

I felt really good about him all day today. 

Tonight, he seems down again. He stayed in his house all evening. He didn't fight when it was time for meds and syringed food. He was roaming around the apartment afterwards, but I had to put him back in the pen because he was very intent on eating carpet and linoleum. He ate a small handful of greens. No pellets or hay tonight.

Saw him get in the litterbox twice, but no poops.

Now, he's just sitting in the pen, looking dejected.  

Today was his 5th day of Zithromax, so he'll get a day off tomorrow and we go to every other day.

Should I keep him on the Bene-bac, and if so, how much should I give, and how often?


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## tonyshuman (May 23, 2009)

I give a dime-sized amount of the gel as needed, so perhaps daily for him. I'm glad his energy is up--hopefully he'll be feeling better as the frequency of dosing gets less.


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## BethM (May 23, 2009)

His energy is back down tonight. All he does tonight is just sit there. He ate well last night, but has hardly had anything tonight.

:cry2


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## Maureen Las (May 23, 2009)

Does his tummy feel hard? I really wouldn't worry too much about this Beth as long as yesterday was good. 

Iwould give him some simethicone if there is any chance he has gas..........

Zithromax (despite its effectiveness) can decrease appetiite.
I would be concerned about getting enough fluids into him today and not worry about the food part 

you're such a Trooper!!!!!!


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## tonyshuman (May 23, 2009)

Yeah today I read a thread where Randy said he had bunnies not eat for a week while they were on antibiotics and they were fine. I bet his appetite will improve tomorrow.


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## BethM (May 24, 2009)

Nick's appetite has increased somewhat today. He's nowhere near normal, but doing better, I think. 

Since yesterday was his last day of daily meds, I decided to give him a stress-free day today. Skipped the pedialyte and bene-bac, so I didn't have to catch and upset him this morning.


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## Maureen Las (May 24, 2009)

I'm glad that his appetite is picking up


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## Amy27 (May 25, 2009)

I am glad Nick's appetite has increased. You two have had a rough road with this. I hope his appetite continues to increase.


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## jamesedwardwaller (May 25, 2009)

is nick still ill??-coughing,??.are you still administering meds/liquids??just found this thread and hope every thing is ok,..sincerely james waller


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## BethM (May 26, 2009)

I have not heard Nick cough recently. There is still some sneezing, but it sounds lighter, more a nose-tickle sort of sneeze, rather than a deep chest sneeze.

It seems like he is still feeling "off." His activity levels are nowhere near normal. He has been eating at least some salad in the mornings on his own, though I still haven't seen him eat much hay, and the hay bin is staying full, which is not normal. Tonight, he ate two mouthfuls of pellets on his own.
He did, however, come out to threaten the vacuum when I was cleaning the pen today. He didn't bite at the end of it like normal, but he did follow it around.

I have had some success with giving him an extra greens in the evening. I have been able to get him to take about a handful, and I've been making sure the veg is nice and wet, to help give fluids into him. (In fact, it's about time to do that now.)

I haven't been able to give him regular run time, as he is still intent on eating carpet and linoleum while he's out. He does NOT normally do this, though he did it when he had stasis last year. 

I saw Randy's comment in another thread about keeping a sick bunny de-stressed, so I've been trying to give Nick some stress-free days, now that meds are every other day. On the days off, I have not been catching Nick to administer food, etc., as he is eating some food on his own. Yesterday was an "on" day, and since he didn't eat anything at pellet time, I did syringe pumpkin-and-pellet slurry when I gave meds. I will also be giving some more Bene-Bac tomorrow or Thursday. 

A friend from my rescue suggested that she usually gives her buns the lower cat dose of Zithromax, which will not cause their appetite to drop. She did say, however, that she will usually have to re-treat. 
Nick is now on day 3 of 10, for every-other-day meds.


Thanks everyone for the encouragement and kind words. I don't think we're through it yet. I think Nick is the one doing the hard work, though. Being sick and stressed and syringed full of stuff can't be fun.


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## Amy27 (May 26, 2009)

lol I am laughing about Nick and the vacuum. He usually bites at the vacuum? That is one brave bunny. You have to get a picture of that to share. Mine run and hide. 

I think you are doing such a good job Beth, of taking care of Nick. He is a lucky bun to have such a great mom. I never knew antibiotics could cause this many problems with eating. 

Keep up the good work. I don't really have a lot of helpful information to offer you but just want you to know I am watching your thread and thinking about you and Nick. 

If you ever need to vent let me know. That is something I have some experience with. Being burned out and frustrated with a sick animal, so really if you ever need anyone to vent to let me know.


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## tonyshuman (May 26, 2009)

The stress-free days is a really good idea. Great job and it's good to hear there are some sassy days in there.


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## BethM (May 26, 2009)

Nick still refuses to eat hay, but is REALLY intent on eating carpet. 
(Is this some rabbit folk remedy for an upset tummy?! "If you're feeling sick and can't get to a doctor, just eat some of the stuff humans put on their floors." lol.)

I have removed some of the small area rugs in his pen, but one is covering a seam in the linoleum floor, and if I take it out he'll just eat the linoleum (unless Amelia gets to it first). He's also been eating the piece of rug I hot glued onto the top of his cardboard house for traction. 

This is really frustrating, as the only I can totally prevent him from doing this is to put him in a cardboard box all day.ssd:



This morning, I did give him Bene-bac, and attempted to syringe Pedialyte. He was very stubborn, though, and let most of the fluid drip out of his mouth instead of drinking it. Same with apple juice.

His poops get tinier and tinier.


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## Maureen Las (May 26, 2009)

it 's possible that he would do better if you could learn to do subqutaneous fluids. 
maybe you could set up a time at the vet to have the vet ortechnician teach you how to do it. It actually is easier than struggling with a stubborn bun and a syringe.

Sorry that things aren't going well..


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## tonyshuman (May 26, 2009)

I think he's just being angry and destructive, and that's why he's eating the carpet. Maybe a phone book would be more fun to destroy, without potentially stopping up his guts? I guess now it's just a waiting game, waiting for his meds to be done, and for him to want to drink on his own.


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## BethM (May 26, 2009)

I have to go to the clinic tomorrow to get the second half of Nick's meds (they only had enough to give me half the script last week). If I can't get more fluids into him tonight, I will see if I can take him in and have a vet tech give subq fluids. I did it myself last year when he was in stasis, but I'm really not comfortable doing it. (I probably need more practice to get comfortable, but am not comfortable practicing.)


I will try putting the phone book box into Nick's pen this evening. He only take occasional interest in it, but it's worth a try.


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## Maureen Las (May 28, 2009)

Did you take Nick back to the vet yet? is he drinking any better :expressionless.......?


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## BethM (May 28, 2009)

Although Nick's fluid intake is still a bit low, we decided not to take him back to the vet. He is eating salad well in the mornings, and I'm supplementing his greens by giving him extra in the evenings. (Hand-fed, so Amelia doesn't eat them.) I've been soaking the greens in water before feeding them. I have also continued not handling him on the "off" medicine days, for lower stress. 
Last night, I got Nick to take greens at two different times, and he ate a small amount of hay. 
I tried offering diluted apple juice, but he doesn't care for it. I had to take it out of the pen, as Amelia was slurping up as much as she could get.

This morning, he was out and about, and even attacked my jeans. He was also excited for his banana (I've only been giving him half a piece). This evening, I saw him eat pellets on his own.

Tonight was meds, and I made his slurry with just pumpkin and pedialyte, just to get some wet fiber in him. Today is day 6 of 10 for meds.

I wasn't able to weigh him on my kitchen scale, but I can certainly tell he's lost weight. He was pleasantly plump before, and now I can feel his hips and backbone with no trouble. I picked up some oats on my way home this evening, and will start giving him a pinch here and there to get some weight back on.

Nick is not better yet, but he's hanging in there.


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## tonyshuman (May 29, 2009)

Awesome that he ate pellets on his own! Only 4 more days, and then you can spoil him with treats and lots of things he wants to eat.


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## BethM (May 29, 2009)

Yeah, I'll be glad when the meds are done.


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## Maureen Las (May 29, 2009)

But his respiratory problem is better ..right?
I think that thezithromax is causing the appetite reduction but most likely worth it if you can get through the 10 days. Hang in there ray:


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## BethM (May 29, 2009)

*angieluv wrote: *


> But his respiratory problem is better ..right?
> I think that thezithromax is causing the appetite reduction but most likely worth it if you can get through the 10 days. Hang in there ray:


I have not heard much sneezing since I started treatment. Nick has sneezed a little bit, but mostly when he's grooming his chest. Probably fur up the nose! 
Definitely no sneezing fits like before. Also, the sneezes seem.....lighter, "choo, choo, choo" sneezes. Before, the sneezing fits sounded much deeper, like they were coming from his chest. No coughing since treatment started. Thank goodness!

I'm glad I'm sticking with the treatment. It's been difficult, on me and Nick both, but if it clears up the respiratory problems, it's worth it. Although Nick's appetite is not where it needs to be, it does seem to be increasing, bit by bit. I just hope I can get a bit of weight put back on him. We're more than half-way through the every-other day phase, then just two treatments every-third day. Whew!


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## Amy27 (May 31, 2009)

I hope things have went better for you over the weekend. I have been thinking about you and Nick.


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## BethM (May 31, 2009)

Thank you, Amy, for keeping Nick in your thoughts!

He seems to be doing a bit better. He's eating salad like a champ, and doing much better with pellets. Last night, I did see him eat hay, but still not much. Still trying to eat carpet. Also, I still haven't seen him drink water. 

Nick is still much skinnier than he really should be. Hopefully, his appetite will keep increasing and he'll put the weight back on. I am about to start switching over to a new brand of pellets, so I hope that won't set him back again.

Overall, I think he's doing much better. We've still got medicine tomorrow and Wednesday, then two more doses, three days apart.


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## Maureen Las (Jun 1, 2009)

Hopefully the zithromax will rid him of the infection

unfortunately it does sometimes suppress appetite. thank God you only have a few days left....


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## Amy27 (Jun 6, 2009)

Beth, how are things going with Nick?


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## BethM (Jun 7, 2009)

Thank you for asking, Amy!

I have been meaning to update this thread. 

Nick seems to be doing MUCH better. We finished out the Zithromax (I was actually one dose short), and Nick's sneezing has been much less than it used to be. I also haven't heard him cough in awhile. He's still a bit on the thin side, but he's gained a little bit back.

One curious thing is that Nick is SO full of energy lately. He is getting into trouble left and right. I can only let them out to run for short amounts of time before I have to put them back in the pen. Nick has been chewing the baseboards, pulling up carpet, etc. He has even been going into the kitchen, which he hasn't done in years. He is crazy. Amelia's always been my trouble maker, now it's Nick I have to keep my eye on.

He has also started snorting when he gets excited for food, which he never did before.

Overall, I am going to say this issue is resolved, at least for now. I just hope there isn't another recurrence in 6 months.


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## Maureen Las (Jun 7, 2009)

I would guess that Nick feels a lot better maybe having had a low level infection for a long time. I don't know how long Randy keeps a rabbit on zithromax but I, too, hope that this course was long enough to eradicate the infection. 

Although his behavior is 'above normal" I would be slightly concerned if there are any symptoms left at all. (if there are symptoms despite the horrendous amount of effort requirqed with feeding him etc) I would still consider asking the vet to extend the meds for a longer time. 

I have used injectable bicillin a lot for rabbit infecitons of many types. It does not (with my rabbits) create any Gi disturbances whatsoever nor does it affect appetite at all. This would also be a drug to consider if you feel that there are still some symptoms present. 
you did a great job of nursing Nick through this (particuularly with the appetite reduction) 

A lesser person would have stopped the drugs.

you did a great job!!!!


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## BethM (Jun 7, 2009)

*angieluv wrote: *


> I would guess that Nick feels a lot better maybe having had a low level infection for a long time. I don't know how long Randy keeps a rabbit on zithromax but I, too, hope that this course was long enough to eradicate the infection.
> 
> Although his behavior is 'above normal" I would be slightly concerned if there are any symptoms left at all. (if there are symptoms despite the horrendous amount of effort requirqed with feeding him etc) I would still consider asking the vet to extend the meds for a longer time.
> 
> ...


Thanks! I don't know if I could have made it through without the help and support from everyone here. The emotional support and experiences of everyone here, along with the medical advice, were what kept me going. 

The sneezing Nick has left is very infrequent, and really sounds different from what he was doing before. More like a tickle in the nose now, and I have noticed he will sometimes sneeze after grooming his chest, as though some fur got into his nose. Before, it sounded like the sneezes were coming from deeper in his body. No couging, either. The couging was awful!

I was also thinking that he may have been feeling poorly for awhile, and that is why his behavior seems so drastically different. 
For awhile, I think he was doing things out of anger towards me, the medicine, force feeding, etc. We are also moving right now, so every day something is different in the apartment, which might be unsettling to him. (Amelia doesn't care.)

I am switching all my bunnies over to APD pellets, as they are less expensive for me than Oxbow now; so far he seems to like them and they're not bothering his stomach. (Just finished a week of 1/4 APD, 3/4 Oxbow, today will start a week of half-and-half.)

I will, however, keep in mind the injectable bicillin. I will look into it if there's a recurrence. I will demand to see the more experienced vet, get an x-ray, and ask about the bicillin. But I'm crossing my fingers that I won't have to do that.

Thanks again!
Like I said, I couldn't have done it without RO.


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## Amy27 (Jun 7, 2009)

I am glad Nick is doing better. He must be feeling a lot better to be that active. That is funny he gets so excited for his food he snorts. 

I will be crossing my fingers that this stays gone. You did such a great job taking care of Nick. I am sure you are really happy you are done. I am sure Nick is also.


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## tonyshuman (Jun 8, 2009)

Wonderful! Ok to mark "resolved"? I'm so glad he's so active and feeling better!


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## BethM (Jun 8, 2009)

*tonyshuman wrote: *


> Wonderful! Ok to mark "resolved"? I'm so glad he's so active and feeling better!


Yes, please mark "resolved."


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