# what is this color?



## bunnychild (Aug 2, 2011)

i am tryin to fill out my pedigees but i am not sure what color pippin is does anyone know?







if the pic doesnt show there look at my avatar

thx


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## mistyjr (Aug 2, 2011)

you can't really see the picture in your avatar! Sorry not much help since we cant hardly see him!


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## bunnychild (Aug 2, 2011)

i uploaded a different pic i hope it is clearer


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## Jaded (Aug 2, 2011)

You need to post better photos.


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## bunnychild (Aug 2, 2011)

maybe this will work


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## hillrise (Aug 3, 2011)

The latest picture looks blue...but in your avatar, I thought it might be opal...Looks like a bit of a tan patch on the back of the neck which would be an indicator...although opals usually have cream/white eyecircles and belly...suppose it could be a blue steel...can you get a picture of the undercolors? Either by blowing into the fur or else parting it? And maybe a picture of his belly?


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## bunnychild (Aug 3, 2011)




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## HappyFarmBunnies (Aug 3, 2011)

How old is Pippin?


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## bunnychild (Aug 3, 2011)

over 1 yr


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## HappyFarmBunnies (Aug 3, 2011)

No ring definition, so he's not an agouti (opal). Looks like a fawn or a lynx with quite a bit of blue smut but what do I know?


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## bunnychild (Aug 3, 2011)

can holland lops hav smut? is it a dq or fault?


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## HappyFarmBunnies (Aug 3, 2011)

Smut can happen in any breed. It's just smutty coloring that's not well defined. I don't know a lot about Hollands though so I really can't say. If you knew what colors his parents were, that might help narrow it down. It looks like it might be a blue tort, that's the closest I can guess. In which case the smut is not bad.


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## hillrise (Aug 3, 2011)

Smut is just the result of having a darker colored parent (you see it a lot in red from castor parents). Depending on the variety, it can be a fault.

I was starting to think Lynx myself...but lynx, whether lilac agouti or blue-smutted fawn, usually has an off-white belly...so I'm actually thinking he might be a blue or lilac tort. I'd lean more toward lilac, though.


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## bunnychild (Aug 3, 2011)

i don't know what color the parents are i got him at state fair


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## pamnock (Aug 3, 2011)

I also think blue or lilac tort.


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## bunnychild (Aug 3, 2011)

so does he hav smut and if he does i dout its a fault cuz he got reserved breed champion ( the only reason he didnt get breed champion is be cuz his head is a lil off)


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## bunnychild (Aug 4, 2011)

i was thinkin tort but i wasn't sure what kind


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## bunnychild (Aug 4, 2011)

I looked on the web and found those colors of torts






blue tort






lilac tort (I think)


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## TinysMom (Aug 4, 2011)

I just want to point out that showing at a state fair (if I understand correctly) isn't the same as showing at an ARBA show with ARBA judges.

So I'm not sure how he'd do on the show table with an ARBA judge - especially here in Texas where he might be up against 40 or more hollands (not sure how many were at the state fair).

I'm not saying he's not good - just pointing out the difference between showing at a fair and showing at an ARBA show.


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## bunnychild (Aug 4, 2011)

he did better then my other holland lop did and i showed her at an ARBA show she got red


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## bunnychild (Aug 4, 2011)

i just said i got him at the state fair to explain why i don't know the color of his parents. I couldn't ask the old owners at the state fair because all she did was glare at me ( I think me other rabbit beat hers )


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## hillrise (Aug 4, 2011)

One of the easier ways to tell blues from lilacs is eye color. Lilacs, since they're chocolate-based, usually have a ruby cast to them.

If you still can't tell, the only way to tell might be to breed him to a chocolate doe. If you get any blacks or blues, then you'll know that he's blue. Otherwise, you can be fairly certain that he's lilac. But, that's only possible if you have a chocolate doe available and have a pretty good chance of finding homes for the kits.


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## bunnychild (Aug 4, 2011)

I think he looks lik the blue tort but i'm not even sure if the lilac picture IS a lilac


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## MiniLopHop (Aug 4, 2011)

If you are going to breed this rabbit, shouldn't you have a petagree that tells you what is in the background?


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## bunnychild (Aug 4, 2011)

yes i should but like i said i got him at the state fair, the family didn't have one and their daughter hated me.


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## TinysMom (Aug 4, 2011)

*MiniLopHop wrote: *


> If you are going to breed this rabbit, shouldn't you have a petagree that tells you what is in the background?


Brandy,

I thought I'd answer your question since there is more than one answer to it.

As far as pedigrees go - most reputable breeders will breed rabbits with pedigrees and sell purebred rabbits with pedigrees. But remember - the pedigree is a history of the past and it doesn't tell you about that particular rabbit (unless the rabbit has won ARBA shows and it is listed on the pedigree). 

A breeder will sometimes use an unpedigreed rabbit IF they see something outstanding in that rabbit and feel it would help their breeding program. As an example - I bred lionheads years ago. I was the first/only one who brought them to Del Rio. About a year later - I found an OUTSTANDING little chestnut doe at the feed store - I could tell she came from my lines but I couldn't tell you her pedigree. I still bought her to use anyway because in three generations - her offspring would be purebred - so I started the pedigree with her. 

Mind you - she was the only one on the pedigree - I didn't fake a pedigree by listing her parents/grandparents, etc.

So to a reputable breeder - yes - a pedigree can and will matter.

But to the backyard breeder - no - a pedigree doesn't matter. What I and many others would probably call a backyard breeder is someone who just goes and buys rabbits and breeds them without trying to improve the breed or at least breeding towards the standard. 

They will often just go and buy the cheapest rabbits they can find (or get them for free off craigslist, etc) so they can breed for the sake of breeding.

To them - who cares about a pedigree? (Hey - who cares about the standards of perfection for that matter??).

They simply want to breed in order to have cute babies or to sell rabbits.

So to them - who cares about a pedigree? They might "create" one so they look like a reputable breeder.

I hope this answers your question about pedigrees and needing them, etc.


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## bunnychild (Aug 4, 2011)

*TinysMom wrote: *


> What I and many others would probably call a backyard breeder is someone who just goes and buys rabbits and breeds them without trying to improve the breed or at least breeding towards the standard.


when you say this you don't mean me do you? I am trying to be a reputable breeder but it was my firt year and i missed the pedigree leason :embarrassed:


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## TinysMom (Aug 4, 2011)

*bunnychild wrote: *


> *TinysMom wrote: *
> 
> 
> > What I and many others would probably call a backyard breeder is someone who just goes and buys rabbits and breeds them without trying to improve the breed or at least breeding towards the standard.
> ...


When I say "backyard breeder" I am saying anybody who fits that description - who breeds just to breed - etc. etc.

If you fit what I said than perhaps you are a backyard breeder - I don't know you or your plans/goals, etc.

But Brandy asked about pedigrees and I was explaining the difference between reputable breeders and backyard breeders.

I did not plan on using any names - simply sharing examples.


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## bunnychild (Aug 4, 2011)

Ok thanks for clearifying:blushan:


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## bunnychild (Aug 4, 2011)

So is he a blue or lilac tort? I don't want to breed him with a chcolate doe because then what would the kits be?


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## bunnychild (Aug 4, 2011)

*hillrise wrote: *


> Lilacs, since they're chocolate-based, usually have a ruby cast to them.


what is a rudy cast?


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## bunnychild (Aug 4, 2011)

:bump:bump:bump:bump:bump:bump:bump:bump


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## hillrise (Aug 5, 2011)

You'll have to look at his eyes if you don't want to breed him. If there's a red tint to the eyes, he's a lilac tort.

If you were to breed him to a chocolate doe(aabbCCDDEE), the kits will be aa(B/b)bCCDdEe, so all Blacks or Chocolates (blacks only if he's a blue tort, chocolates only if he's lilac or carries lilac), unless the doe carries other colors (just look at her pedigree to figure out what she might carry).


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## CCWelch (Aug 5, 2011)

Since Lilac is a derivative of Chocolate and Blue I believe is a derivative of black(dang I just read this a couple days ago) If you think it is blue breed it to a black, if you think it is Lilac breed it to a chocolate. 
Are you a member of the ARBA? Their book "Raising Better Rabbits and Cavies"(The newest edition) spells it out in relatively easy to understand sections.


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## CCWelch (Aug 5, 2011)

If he is a lilac (though I am leaning toward blue)then breeding to a chocolate could make the babies chocolate or almost any form of chocolate. At this point it really doesn't matter what color you breed him against,because you do not know his background, he could have been a "happy accident" in which case you could have any number of colors mixed to make his color.


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## bunnychild (Aug 7, 2011)

happy accident?


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## bunnychild (Aug 7, 2011)

would the kits be show quality


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## HappyFarmBunnies (Aug 8, 2011)

Happy Accident in that he was not a planned rabbit is what CCWelch means. Meaning that his genetics might be a bit screwy. 

Show quality kits totally depends on the parents, the genetics behind the parents, and chance. There's absolutely no way to tell without doing a few test breeding with a super doe. Even with two show winning parents, not every kit in the litter will turn out to be show quality.


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## hillrise (Aug 8, 2011)

The nice thing about his being a tort, and knowing that he's definitely a dilute tort, is that there's actually not that many variables in colors he can throw.

So while HE might have been a "happy accident", what you'll get out of him is pretty predictable, since he's aa--C-ddee. The only question is whether he is blue or lilac, meaning B- or bb; if he's lilac, he'll always give a b.

The only big question is what does he carry for his second C gene (that series is responsible for chinchilla/ermine/frosted pearl, pointed colors and REW). USUALLY, purebreds that show C are either CC or carry for REW, but there's nothing that says they can't carry the others.

The kits he'd throw with a chocolate doe should be showable by color, if she's the same breed, but whether they're showable also depends on how well the kits themselves conform to the standard (ear length, body type, etc.), which can vary even in a litter from two grand champion parents.


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## bunnychild (Aug 8, 2011)

i dout he is a happy accident, the people were breeders with a good reputation. I believe he is a blue i will try breeding him with a chocolate doe to see as long as the color of the offspring is showable


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## hillrise (Aug 8, 2011)

The great thing about lops is that they accept most every color (I actually don't know what colors WOULDN'T be accepted, except for non-tri harlequin colors, and you won't get any of those out of this guy unless you cross him with a harlequin).


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## HappyFarmBunnies (Aug 8, 2011)

*bunnychild wrote: *


> i dout he is a happy accident, the people were breeders with a good reputation. I believe he is a blue i will try breeding him with a chocolate doe to see as long as the color of the offspring is showable


If they really were breeders with a good reputation, they would have given you his pedigree at the state fair when you bought him, UNLESS he was intended to be sold only as a pet. But from what you said, they were refusing to give it to you and refusing to tell you anything about his parentage. Real reputable breeders wouldn't behave like that.


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## Brittany85 (Aug 8, 2011)

If you want to breed for show you should buy from breeders who will give out pedigrees. Judging by your pictures I would say your rabbit is not show quality. His head is not wide enough and his ears are a bit to long and thin. If you are set on showing you must go to ARBA show breeders and ask for any rabbits they are letting go. You might still not get a show bunny from this. It may take a few breedings until you get a show quality bunny.


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## bunnychild (Aug 9, 2011)

he is show quality for state and county fair which is what i mainly do for now. it was my first year we didn't think to ask for the pedigree and some breeders don't use pedigrees.
Thank you hillrise that is SUPER helpful


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## HappyFarmBunnies (Aug 9, 2011)

*bunnychild wrote: *


> he is show quality for state and county fair which is what i mainly do for now. it was my first year we didn't think to ask for the pedigree and some breeders don't use pedigrees.
> Thank you hillrise that is SUPER helpful



If you're looking to get into breeding and showing at an ARBA level (and even for most state/county fair levels as well) bunnychild, I recommend that you only seek out breeders that DO use pedigrees. Any breeder worth their salt will NOT sell a purebred animal without a pedigree to back it up--unless they have made it clear to you that for one reason or another, they consider that rabbit to be of PET quality only and therefore choose not to sell him with a pedigree, and that is known up front. 

Just trying to help you get started on the right foot.


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## sickbunny (Aug 11, 2011)

*HappyFarmBunnies wrote: *


> *bunnychild wrote: *
> 
> 
> > i dout he is a happy accident, the people were breeders with a good reputation. I believe he is a blue i will try breeding him with a chocolate doe to see as long as the color of the offspring is showable
> ...



i agree with happyfarms. i bought 2 bunnies at the county fair this summer. both breeders were recommended as good breeders by other breeders there. both breeders whipped out pedigrees without me even having to ask for them. a good breeder should be proud to hand over a pedigree, it shows they are raising quality rabbits. if they dont want to give a pedigree with it, it means they think its pet quality and dont want it to be bred. 

i'm curious- how much did you pay for it? sometimes price gives an indication of quality, not always, but sometimes.

something sounded fishy here- you said they seemed hostile towards you, and that your rabbit beat theirs. i cant imagine a breeder being hostile towards a customer they want to sell to, it just doesnt sound right. refusing to answer questions about parentage seems like they had something to hide. this just doesnt sound right at all.

it is a cute little bunny though!


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## bunnychild (Aug 12, 2011)

they had a girl a little youger than me she was hostale. At state fair you buy the rabbits from the office not from the breeders themselves. a family of breeders I know that have been breeding holland lops for a while wanted to breed some of their does with him, they show their rabbits at ARBA shows.

thanks I think he is cute too


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## bunnychild (Aug 21, 2011)

i had some help by someone who has done holland lops for a while he thinks pippin is blue tort.

though he is pretty sure we cant know for sure so is it legal to write on the pedigree that he is a blue tort or should i leave that spot blank?


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## Brittany85 (Aug 21, 2011)

It doesn't really matter what you write on the pedigree as he is not a pedigreed rabbit. People who buy your rabbits will most likely not be buying for showing or breeding show rabbits.
So write what you want


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## bunnychild (Aug 21, 2011)

i mean on his off spring pedigrees


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## HappyFarmBunnies (Aug 21, 2011)

It was to my understanding that it was not considered accurate or "right" to provide a pedigree for kits that come from an unpedigreed rabbit, as you have no idea what is on his side. Rabbits that do not have a three-generation pedigree cannot be proved as purebred. 

Not sure if other breeders feel the same way, but this is what I was taught.


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## Brittany85 (Aug 21, 2011)

That's what I meant. It doesn't really matter as the people who buy his offspring will most likely not want them for breeding top quality show rabbits. 
People who care about pedigrees and genetics will not buy a rabbit that has non-pedigreed parents.

So you can write blue tort


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## Brittany85 (Aug 21, 2011)

Happy Farm Bunnies: 
I agree but I guess she can write him in as if she breeds him to pedigreed rabbit and keeps track of that rabbit's pedigree eventually the offspring will have a 4 generation pedigree. If that makes sense, I kind of confused myself there.
So if the blue tort is bred to a pedigreed rabbit and you fill her pedigree in and so forth with future generations, in a few years the rabbit's great great grandchildren will be fully pedigreed.
Not ideal but if a rabbit is of great quality I guess it can be done.


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## bunnychild (Aug 21, 2011)

gee thanks telling me no one will buy my rabbits for show totaly makes me feel so grand


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## HappyFarmBunnies (Aug 21, 2011)

.....show rabbits have to be purebred. And without a three generation pedigree, you cannot prove that Pippin is a purebred. So anyone looking to actively show (at least by ARBA standards) will be wanting a full and correct pedigree for their rabbit.


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## Brittany85 (Aug 21, 2011)

They wouldn't buy them from me either! You have to be a very well established breeder with quality stock. Look at pictures of show Holland Lops that win and compare to your rabbits.


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## Brittany85 (Aug 21, 2011)

I bred for 2 years straight with purebred pedigreed rabbits that were of great quality and from reputable breeders and each and every one of the babies went to pet homes. You have to breed for many years and prove yourself before breeders will want your babies.
You can't just breed a non-pedigreed rabbit and expect to get all showable babies!


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## bunnychild (Aug 21, 2011)

ok that does make sense now thx i think i am done with this topic


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## mistyjr (Aug 21, 2011)

You can start an pedigree for hes babies, Its calling starting a pedigree. It doesnt matter if you dont have a pedigree from hes past. I have done this before, Started a new one from start. I am almost to my full pedigree. And people will buy babies from you. Alot of breeders have started a pedigree from scratch... Just put hes color down on the pedigree that you started!

And yes, I gotten a free rabbit that did not have no pedigree. She almost got her first leg if there was another breeder there. The judge really liked her and said she's one good rabbit! I was very lucky, And people buy from me with parcial pedigree's.


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## Brittany85 (Aug 21, 2011)

That is what I was trying to say Mistyjr, you said it better ha! I was finding it hard to explain.

Your area must be different from mine. Breeders around here don't buy unless the breeder is well established. I guess it depends where you live.

Also you are right, rabbits don't need to be pedigreed to be shown in ARBA shows, just tattoed.


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## bunnychild (Aug 22, 2011)

unless you want to have them registered then you need a complete pedigree. Canada does seem to have alot of breeders that may be why you have to be well established. My first show rabbit Cocoanut we got from the shelter and the papers said she was a mini rex then one of the ladies that work there said she was a mini lop but when i went to a show they said she was a hollandlop And she did super well in all of the shows she was in, and she never had a pedigree.

she looked like this


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## Brittany85 (Aug 22, 2011)

I would love to see a picture of her. That would be one in a million that you would find a show quality bun in a shelter, were these shows ARBA?
Yes you are correct that they cannot grand or be registered without a pedigree but they can be shown.


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## FireValleyRabbitry (Aug 22, 2011)

deffinetly looks like a blue tort to me


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## bunnychild (Aug 23, 2011)

she did get a red ribbon at a ARBA show i cant get any pics of her to download


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