# Sukura's kits



## paul2641 (Jan 25, 2009)

Hi everyone Keep a calm head. Sukura gave birth to 4 little kits(unexpected litter). She gave birth to them between 3 and 8 this morning. She had fed them when I saw them at 8 and has built a warm nest for them. So I am not going to interfere, I will let her raise them. This was a completely unexpected litter. We have all rabbits separated, Savannah has her own cage we got it today. We are getting another hutch tomorrow so when I need to wean the kits, I can move them into a separate cage. And of course kits are with mother.So now I will have a cage to wean kits when I have more litters. So now I have finally gotten everything together and I can breed knowing I'm doing everything correct.


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## Lover_Of_Lopz (Jan 25, 2009)

I am goingto dye if you dont put picks on soon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



--Nicky


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## Luvr of Wabbits and Polar Bears (Jan 25, 2009)

I wish you the best of luck with this set of baby's and everything goes well.


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## paul2641 (Jan 25, 2009)

*Lover_Of_Lopz wrote: *


> I am goingto dye if you dont put picks on soon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> --Nicky



I plan to post pics soon. 

My worry is this she has started to poo in the oppisite corner from where the nest is, Is she now starting to neglect them, There all still pretty round apart from the little pink one,Oh and every time I go to look at them she runs over and stands over them, Is this a good sign. When should I worry? And if this little pink one still looks alot less rounder then the others tomorrow should I give him some boba(Kitten milk supplement?).


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## Luvr of Wabbits and Polar Bears (Jan 25, 2009)

IMO I wouldn't worry that she's pooing in the other corner than the baby's 'cause that's what you want her to do. You don't want to her go on the baby's. If the little one isn't being feed fell I wouldn't do the bottle just try and hold her over the kits or pick her up and put the baby on top.
If she's runny over to the kits when she see's you she's just being a good mummy keeping a close eye on them.


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## naturestee (Jan 25, 2009)

Do not give milk replacement to kits that are being nursed. As long as his belly has some roundness, he's been fed and is ok. If his belly looks shriveled or he consistently has a less full belly over several days, just hold Sakura in your lap and place the baby under her to nurse.

It would be a good idea to pick up the entire nest and put it into a nest box. Sakura should be ok with it. This will keep the babies from accidentally wandering out of the nest and getting too cold. In a pinch you can use a cardboard box, small plastic tub, etc.

And start getting more cages now, especially recently bred another girl didn't you? Also try to figure out how she got pregnant. Keep in mind that rabbits can breed through cage wire when they really want to, or if you have younger siblings that may have put them together.


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## paul2641 (Jan 26, 2009)

naturestee wrote:


> Do not give milk replacement to kits that are being nursed.Â  As long as his belly has some roundness, he's been fed and is ok.Â  If his belly looks shriveled or he consistently has a less full belly over several days, just hold Sakura in your lap and place the baby under her to nurse.
> 
> It would be a good idea to pick up the entire nest and put it into a nest box.Â  Sakura should be ok with it.Â  This will keep the babies from accidentally wandering out of the nest and getting too cold.Â  In a pinch you can use a cardboard box, small plastic tub, etc.
> 
> And start getting more cages now, especially recently bred another girl didn't you?Â  Also try to figure out how she got pregnant.Â  Keep in mind that rabbits can breed through cage wire when they really want to, or if you have younger siblings that may have put them together.


My mother had been letting Momma out with Roger(male), I didn't know this was happening.All the kits are round and there skin is tight,there are no wrinkles on the babies so it means she is feeding the, You sure she will know the kits are in a box, She is always with, And i've never seen them out of the nest. Biggest question, when Suki has her babies and if she regects them can I foster them To Sukura?


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## Sabine (Jan 26, 2009)

Posted: 4 Jan 2009 07:14 pm








Sabine wrote:


> Frankly at this critical stage I would get any cage/hutch at any price. i also agree that teaching the doe to feed is preferable to handrearing them.
> P.S. Did you try to force her to feed them before she started cannibalizing them?


Paul wrote:"I only went near them to put them in the nest and that was like 4hours before she ate any of them. And she seemed grand with me touching them. I tried them up against her nipple once and she wasn't having it she wouldn't sit still and she killed another baby. that brought us to 3 because when she was trying to get away she bit onto it I pulled her away and thought it would be ok but obv not. then I went again to try and she broke skin and I was bleeding( I had three pairs of gloves on think working gloves and she got through) She wants nothing to do with the babies. So I will have to hand hear them. I think I'm going to section suki off and if she doesn't improve on behaviour I'm going to sell her. She has always been nasty. *Sukura will make a wonderful mother, she is so friendly."*


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## Flashy (Jan 26, 2009)

No, the kits will be too old for Suki's babies to be fostered to Sukura's. They should be fostered with, ideally, kits of only a day or so different, although I believe there is more leeway if necessary (this is why most decent breeders breed at least two buns at the same time).

You want her to go to the toilet away from the babies. You obviously don't want her to go to the loo in the nest, so she is doing the right thing.

There is no reason for try and supplement any baby unless mum's milk dries up, but right now it sounds like she is being ace.

And yes, a nestbox is a good idea. She will obviously know they are there because you are using all the same material and will put it in the same (or near enough) place, plus rabbits aren't stupid and she will be able to find them. It will keep them safer.


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## paul2641 (Jan 26, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> No, the kits will be too old for Suki's babies to be fostered to Sukura's. They should be fostered with, ideally, kits of only a day or so different, although I believe there is more leeway if necessary (this is why most decent breeders breed at least two buns at the same time).
> 
> You want her to go to the toilet away from the babies. You obviously don't want her to go to the loo in the nest, so she is doing the right thing.
> 
> ...


Wouldn't I be weaning the kits at this age? So I would only be putting her kits in there for a short period of time, And for the time when her kits are out away from her, I can put suki's kits in there? 



I hope so too Sabine.


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## Flashy (Jan 26, 2009)

No, you can't put Suki's kits in there. Sukura is not stupid, she will know. She will need her kits weaned at 8 weeks, and given that Suki's may be born in 4, that does not add up. Plus, the milk is different at different ages for the kits, so Suki's kits would not get the rich early milk they need.


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## paul2641 (Jan 26, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> No, you can't put Suki's kits in there. Sukura is not stupid, she will know. She will need her kits weaned at 8 weeks, and given that Suki's may be born in 4, that does not add up. Plus, the milk is different at different ages for the kits, so Suki's kits would not get the rich early milk they need.


Ok I will not put them on sukura if suki rejects her kits.


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## Flashy (Jan 26, 2009)

If yo do everything right with Suki this time there will be a far lesser chance of them rejecting her. The chance of rejection is something that you should have considered before breeding her. Ideally you could have done with having someone available to foster them too but that's obviously not happened. You could, however, try making contact with breeders in your area to see if there is anyone around that might be able to help if necessary (I know that you said there are only smaller breeders around, but that doesn't mean they won't be able to help).


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## paul2641 (Jan 26, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> If yo do everything right with Suki this time there will be a far lesser chance of them rejecting her. The chance of rejection is something that you should have considered before breeding her. Ideally you could have done with having someone available to foster them too but that's obviously not happened. You could, however, try making contact with breeders in your area to see if there is anyone around that might be able to help if necessary (I know that you said there are only smaller breeders around, but that doesn't mean they won't be able to help).


Hopefully Sukiwon't abandon them, Because I have very little chance of finding a breeder who will help. It does put there own rabbit at risk. Feeding so many babies.


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## jcl_24 (Jan 27, 2009)

Hi Paul,
I've been reading through the the threads, can you tell me if I've got this straight:-

1. Suki has been bred by you as planned, her litter is due in a month.
2. Sakura has had an unplanned litter, but to date the babies are doing OK.
3. Savanah will be sold when a home is available?

Jo xx


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## paul2641 (Jan 27, 2009)

*jcl_24 wrote: *


> Hi Paul,
> I've been reading through the the threads, can you tell me if I've got this straight:-
> 
> 1. Suki has been bred by you as planned, her litter is due in a month.
> ...


Frist two are correct, but the last one could be changing mam really wants to keep savannah.


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## Sabine (Jan 27, 2009)

Has Savannah been bred too?


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## irishbunny (Jan 27, 2009)

I can't see you post but it sounds like you have alot of cages to buy lol! Good luck!


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## paul2641 (Jan 27, 2009)

The little peanut just died there. I still have 3 others, I was expecting the pink one to die as I knew it was a peanut. SO Hopefully the last three will make it to adulthood. I took out all wet bedding and replaced it, Is this the right thing to do? I don't want her feeling Like I'm taking her babies away. The other three are nice and round, And are warm should I clean the whole cage and build a new nest?


I had planed on cleaning all the cages out tonight but my auntie called so that didn't happen.


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## paul2641 (Jan 27, 2009)

*Sabine wrote: *


> Has Savannah been bred too?



Nope but that is as far as I know someone could have been letting them out together. I say she is because my mother is letting all the rabbits out together, I quote what she says "what your doing getting all these cages is cruel they all should be in the one hutch, they are a social network" I walked out of the room tonight when I heard that because I don't know what I would have done, I just told her to stay away from MY RABBITS, and I said Not to let them out toghther unless I say so, But I have a feeling they have been left out together. But If I find babies in with savannah I will go crazy because I really don't want the babies, And It just annoys me how people think they can say what to do with my rabbits when I bought them, and plus there my pets there my responsibility, because I can garentee the minute any one of my rabbits die this will be said to me "it's your fault". 

Just so everyone know's I haven't bred savannah to roger but who knows what my mother could have done.


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## paul2641 (Jan 27, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> I can't see you post but it sounds like you have alot of cages to buy lol! Good luck!



I only need to get one more and I will have all the hutches I will need.Mam is going in tomorrow getting it. I will have all the adult rabbits housed seperatly and I will have a hutch to wean the kits. So I am right on the dot with everything.


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## Sabine (Jan 27, 2009)

Are you trying to tell us your mom doesn't realise that rabbits breed and she is happy with three litters every month?
This is some crazy situation. And you need a hutch per rabbit plus at least two more for the kits. You can't lump the whole lot (three litters) into the one and you also will need to seperate the boys from the girls at about eight weeks. Any kits that don't find a home you will need to keep and put into seperate cages...


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## Sabine (Jan 27, 2009)

Also bear in mind when flashy said earlier that any decent breeder will breed two does together that means usually a proven doe will be bred at the same time as a first time mom in case the kits are rejected. having two first time moms doesn't make the whole thing much safer.


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## PixieStixxxx (Jan 27, 2009)

When Savannah had her unexpected litter, shehadignored them for the first two nights and had even stepped on them. Pipp assured me that ignoring them was normal, but the stepping I had to make sure she wasn't doing it too hard.

Then she rejected one of her babies, Sylvia. I happened to wake up early, and I saw Sylvia outside the nest, freezing, as Savannah was feeding her brothers. So it became a routine that I would wake up at 5 am, wait for Savannah to kick out Sylvia. I'd put her back without Savannah noticing, and later that night we'd hold Savannah and let Sylvia get some milk because she stayed tiny while her brother grew. I was told that milk supplement wasn't the best for her, and I should keep doing what I was doing with Sylvia. Now Sylvia is a healthy 9 month old spayed female. She'll always be tiny, but she's alright!


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## Numbat (Jan 28, 2009)

Oh wow. Good to see everything seems to be going alright so far!


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## paul2641 (Jan 28, 2009)

Mam hasn't let roger with savannah,so there is no pregnancy there. Also we are sorting out another hutch for the baby rabbits when they are weaning off momma.

2 of the babies died and she has rejected the other two I aspect them to die in the next few hours.


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## paul2641 (Jan 28, 2009)

_I also thing her milk has dried up because you can't even find any nipples for them to suck off._


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## irishbunny (Jan 28, 2009)

2 more hutch/cages are needed for the two new litters.


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## paul2641 (Jan 28, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> 2 more hutch/cages are needed for the two new litters.


I only have 1 litter, and there dieing.


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## irishbunny (Jan 28, 2009)

If they survive then you will, because you will have Suki's kits.


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## NorthernAutumn (Jan 28, 2009)

If you have absolutely no access to rabbit milk, you better start feeding those kits the replacement stuff *right now*. Don't let them die.

ETA: Only if absolutely no chance of getting milk... I don't know when that point is, but you can't give them up for dead, ever.


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## irishbunny (Jan 28, 2009)

Do you think maybe Suki was killing her kits and Sukura is not feeding them because of stress? It sounds like it to me, breeding rabbits in the house is not suitable IMO because of noise and distractions, and with people coming in and out of the room. Plus, if you are poking and proding around the cage and nest all the time that can cause stress too, stress causes rabbits to cannabalize their babies and can also cause them to abandon the nest.


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## paul2641 (Jan 28, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> Do you think maybe Suki was killing her kits and Sukura is not feeding them because of stress? It sounds like it to me, breeding rabbits in the house is not suitable IMO because of noise and distractions, and with people coming in and out of the room. Plus, if you are poking and proding around the cage and nest all the time that can cause stress too, stress causes rabbits to cannabalize their babies and can also cause them to abandon the nest.


I check the kits 2-3 times a day just to make sure everything is ok, If I didn't look this morning all the kits would be dead. I finally got some milk momma milk into the kits.


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## Happi Bun (Jan 28, 2009)

Wow, I had no idea breeding rabbits was so difficult. Thank goodness I have no interest in it. Sounds like a lot of unnecessary heartbreak.


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## Flashy (Jan 28, 2009)

I wonder why she rejected them after being such a good mum. That makes no sense to me. There must be something else have happened.


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## Sabine (Jan 28, 2009)

Have you tried to make her feed them or if that fails the kitten formula. They looked well fed this morning you said. What happened?


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## Sabine (Jan 28, 2009)

I just realised I missed a few posts. What made you think she rejected the babies this morning. Did you find another dead one in the morning? You said one died last night. I doubt her milk would dry up that soon. Make sure Sukura has no stress whatsoever and isn't left with the other rabbits. After all she's been in your house barely six weeks


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## aurora369 (Jan 28, 2009)

My advice is to avoid supplimenting the babies until absolutely nessecary.

If the babies are still wiggling and excited when you put your hand in the nest, then they should be fine.

Even if they aren't getting enough to make their bellies ping pong, then they should at least be getting enough to survive. The act of nursing will stimulate mom to produce more milk.

When you start supplimenting, the babies aren't as hungry and will not suckle as hard or as long. Which will mean mom's mammary glands will not be as stimulated as they should be.

It can take a while before you can start feeling mom's mammary glands. For the first few days she's mainly producing colustrum, which is much thinner than regular milk. Towards the end of the first week is when you will notice the teats starting to swell noticably.

Again, you best bet is to enourage mom to feed. Once or twice a day, get mom in the nest with treats or a distraction and let the babies feed. The babies feeding will stimulate her milk production and in the mean time the babies will be getting enough to survive.

Hand suplimnentation is very dangerous and should be the last step taken to try to save the babies. You are more likely to lose babies by hand feeding, then by getting the babies to stimulate mom's mammary glands.

--Dawn


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## paul2641 (Jan 28, 2009)

I don't know why momma would abandon her kits,but I am now forcing her to feed them. One of them latches on and doesn't come off no matter but the other one is the complete opposite won't go on at all.


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## Sabine (Jan 28, 2009)

Keep trying with the other one or he'll get too week to suckle


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## Sabine (Jan 28, 2009)

Paul, I don't quite understand what is going on. When you say she rejected them this morning did she cannabalize them like Suki did or was one of the kits simply dead in the morning. Could she possibly have fed the other two already? They only feed once or twice a day. Is that the reason maybe they won't suckle? Maybe I missed a post but I am somewhat puzzled


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## paul2641 (Jan 28, 2009)

*Sabine wrote: *


> Keep trying with the other one or he'll get too week to suckle


I think the kit is already at that stage mam gave it some bottle so hopefully that will give it some strength.


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## naturestee (Jan 28, 2009)

How many times are you feeding the babies a day? They only need to be fed 1-2 times daily.

What do their bellies look like? Are they firm or even rounded, or do they look shriveled up? If they're shriveled up they haven't been fed for some time and really need it. If the bellies are at least firm they are getting proper food. My foster mama Jazzy didn't have enough milk for the first litter to give them big round bellies full of milk but she did have enough to keep the bellies firm and usually slightly chubby. That's good enough.

Does your mom realize that if the boy rabbit lives with the girl, not only will the girls be giving birth again when the first litter is only 4 weeks old but it is also very hard on the girls and can shorten their lives? Jazzy was kept like this and she was emaciated. I don't know how much longer she would have survived if she hadn't been given to the shelter.


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## paul2641 (Jan 28, 2009)

*naturestee wrote: *


> How many times are you feeding the babies a day? They only need to be fed 1-2 times daily.
> 
> What do their bellies look like? Are they firm or even rounded, or do they look shriveled up? If they're shriveled up they haven't been fed for some time and really need it. If the bellies are at least firm they are getting proper food. My foster mama Jazzy didn't have enough milk for the first litter to give them big round bellies full of milk but she did have enough to keep the bellies firm and usually slightly chubby. That's good enough.
> 
> Does your mom realize that if the boy rabbit lives with the girl, not only will the girls be giving birth again when the first litter is only 4 weeks old but it is also very hard on the girls and can shorten their lives? Jazzy was kept like this and she was emaciated. I don't know how much longer she would have survived if she hadn't been given to the shelter.


I'm going to say the truth here My mother is stupid. So even if she disagrees about the rabbits I will do what I have to. And that is to make sure all kits are alive. No she didn't eat them 2 were just dead and she weed on them aswell. So they were freezing.


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## Sabine (Jan 28, 2009)

*paul2641 wrote: *


> *Sabine wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Keep trying with the other one or he'll get too week to suckle
> ...


I kind of meant keep trying with momma but if the bellies are firm maybe they are just full and sleepy


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## Sabine (Jan 28, 2009)

*paul2641 wrote:*


> I'm going to say the truth here My mother is stupid. So even if she disagrees about the rabbits I will do what I have to. And that is to make sure all kits are alive. No she didn't eat them 2 were just dead and she weed on them aswell. So they were freezing.


The babies may have died for other reasons like genetic abnormalities and she may still be feeding the other two.


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## paul2641 (Jan 28, 2009)

The one that is really eating is getting really fat and he feels like silk(is this normal, Could there be rex in there somewhere?) Oh and the one that isn't I don't think he will make it through the night, I was trying to get him to suckle for 10 minutes but nothing. I'm really annoyed the other two died because I know the other black one was in perfect health it was just I didn't get to him in time.


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## naturestee (Jan 28, 2009)

If the one is suckling and looks good, the others probably had something wrong with them. Not every defect is visible.

He feels like silk because his fur is just starting to grow in. This is normal. You won't see what the fur is really like until it's had a chance to grow more. My foster babies were rex mixes and some had the rex fur, some didn't, but they all felt about the same for the first few days.


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## jcl_24 (Jan 29, 2009)

Paul,
You saying exactly what is going on with the rabbits is helpful as it shows breeding isn't always fluffy babies and happy owners. That said, I hope the breeding and kits situation settles for your sake and the buns.

Jo x


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## BlueGiants (Jan 29, 2009)

Paul, you are doing a good job encouraging Sukura's kits to nurse. No two ways about it, Momma's milk is best. MUCh better than any formula. Keep an eye on the babies and make sure their bellies look like they got some nourishment after each feeding. 

I'm sorry you lost two more. But as others have noted, they could have died from any number of unseen defects or problems. It may not be her fault, and she may not have rejected them. As far as weeing on them, some Does will do that to cover any smell from the deceased babies. It's her way of protecting the other babies.

It is really hard to keep a baby going if it won't suckle. If Sukura is cooperative, try "milking" on of her nipples so there is a drop of milk on the tip. Then put the baby on the nipple. Even a few drops will help.


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## NZminilops (Jan 29, 2009)

*paul2641 wrote: *


> "what your doing getting all these cages is cruel they all should be in the one hutch, they are a social network"


A lot of my annoying family members have similar feelings on rabbits, I understand just how that can be.

When my dad stayed here once years ago, he let all my rabbits free in the backyard (not escape proof at the time!). Said it was cruel to cage them up away from eachother :?.


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## paul2641 (Jan 29, 2009)

*NZminilops wrote: *


> *paul2641 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > "what your doing getting all these cages is cruel they all should be in the one hutch, they are a social network"
> ...


I now it is so annoying.


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## paul2641 (Jan 29, 2009)

*BlueGiants wrote: *


> Paul, you are doing a good job encouraging Sukura's kits to nurse. No two ways about it, Momma's milk is best. MUCh better than any formula. Keep an eye on the babies and make sure their bellies look like they got some nourishment after each feeding.
> 
> I'm sorry you lost two more. But as others have noted, they could have died from any number of unseen defects or problems. It may not be her fault, and she may not have rejected them. As far as weeing on them, some Does will do that to cover any smell from the deceased babies. It's her way of protecting the other babies.
> 
> It is really hard to keep a baby going if it won't suckle. If Sukura is cooperative, try "milking" on of her nipples so there is a drop of milk on the tip. Then put the baby on the nipple. Even a few drops will help.


Thanks, The little one still won't suckle.


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## BlueGiants (Jan 29, 2009)

Does that little one look any different than the other baby that is eating? Bigger head? Paddle like feet (webbing between toes)? Smaller hips? I'm just wondering if you have a "peanut" (or double dwarf)... (They generally can't suckle and fade within a few days of birth.)


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## Flashy (Jan 29, 2009)

Have you checked the kits teeth? Just wonder if maybe they are wonky and that is hindering it?


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## irishlops (Jan 29, 2009)

i agree with flashy. 
teeth? or even like a penet....??? but i not experianced ..


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## Sabine (Jan 29, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> Have you checked the kits teeth? Just wonder if maybe they are wonky and that is hindering it?


What would you look out for if you check for wonky teeth? What are they supposed to look like at that early age? Was just wondering....


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## BlueGiants (Jan 29, 2009)

Turn the baby over (on it's back) and see ifthe front teeth protrude or appear to block the mouth. You can lift the baby cheeks and see how they line up. 

It's very uncommon for new borns to have teeth issues. Their teeth are usually pretty small to start with. But it doesn't hurt to check when there are problems feeding.


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## Sabine (Jan 29, 2009)

If there is a problem with teeth that early can a vet help?


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## Flashy (Jan 29, 2009)

They look just like tiny ordinary teeth. You can obviously only check the front ones, but those are the ones that could cause problems at this age, I presume.


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## BlueGiants (Jan 29, 2009)

Unfortunately, no. There is very little a vet can do for one so young. They can not handle anesthesia or antibiotics at that young age....


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## Flashy (Jan 29, 2009)

*BlueGiants wrote: *


> Turn the baby over (on it's back) and see ifthe front teeth protrude or appear to block the mouth. You can lift the baby cheeks and see how they line up.
> 
> It's very uncommon for new borns to have teeth issues. Their teeth are usually pretty small to start with. But it doesn't hurt to check when there are problems feeding.


The only reason I thought of teeth is because I know Polly has had teeth issues with a couple of lionhead litters (which I think she posted about on here, but if not, I will delete this if she wants me to), that's all.

Oh, and I thought I was posting my loast post straight after yours Sabine, I didn't see the other responses, somehow!


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## Sabine (Jan 29, 2009)

That sometimes happens to me too, that i post and then suddenly I discover there were several posts before me i didn't see.
I am just trying to figure out all the things that could become an issue if i have a litter so that i know what to do should complications arise. right now i'm quite put off breeding though


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## Flashy (Jan 29, 2009)

Maybe it's a good thing you're put off breeding? Less risk to your lovely bunners. Its heartbreaking when something happens during kindling, and I would hate for anyone to have to go through all that.


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## Sabine (Jan 29, 2009)

It's not so much the risk to my bun (I have full confidence in Magic) it's more the thought that leaving room for rabbits in need should be more on my agenda..


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## irishbunny (Jan 29, 2009)

Paul, maybe you should wait until your rabbits are moved outside before you do any further breeding, I can't help feeling that stress may have a big part to play in the does being a bit funny with their babies, especially with Suki, does hardly ever cannabalize their babies for any other reason other then stress and feeling like the babies are in danger.

I hope Suki and Savannah aren't pregnant, you seem to have enough on your plate already It must be really stressful for you too *hugs*


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## Flashy (Jan 29, 2009)

Sometimes we can have all the confidence in the world and something goes wrong. Having said that, the reason about having space for more needy bunnies versus adding more bunnies to the population is one of the reasons that I give when asking people to think about breeding. Maybe you might have the potential to help out needy buns (needy in whatever way).


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## irishbunny (Jan 29, 2009)

*Sabine wrote: *


> right now i'm quite put off breeding though


Me too, I thought I wanted to get into breeding myself, like big time, with good rabbits and stuff,but to be honest I don't now, it's pretty pointless in this country, since we have no shows or anything. Really no reason to breed.

I think my babies that are on the way will be my one and only litter, plus with school and moving out in 2-3 years I don't have time.


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## Sabine (Jan 29, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> Sometimes we can have all the confidence in the world and something goes wrong. Having said that, the reason about having space for more needy bunnies versus adding more bunnies to the population is one of the reasons that I give when asking people to think about breeding. Maybe you might have the potential to help out needy buns (needy in whatever way).


Still, I don't want to end up feeling resentful of having denied myself the joy of breeding when I am set up for it and can give them the best care in the world as opposed to picking up the slack from others breeding recklessly. I am trying to find a balance. And although it doesn't work out mathematically maybe taking in a bun for each litter I breed is an option. But I'm hijacking the thread....

How are the babies?


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## irishbunny (Jan 29, 2009)

*Sabine wrote:*


> And although it doesn't work out mathematically maybe taking in a bun for each litter I breed is an option. But I'm hijacking the thread....
> 
> How are the babies?


That is if you can find a rabbit to take in, haven't seen any since I referred you to Raylann.


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## Sabine (Jan 29, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> *Sabine wrote:*
> 
> 
> > And although it doesn't work out mathematically maybe taking in a bun for each litter I breed is an option. But I'm hijacking the thread....
> ...


Me neither, but the way things are going....


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## irishbunny (Jan 29, 2009)

Oh ya I get ya...


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## paul2641 (Jan 29, 2009)

*BlueGiants wrote: *


> Does that little one look any different than the other baby that is eating? Bigger head? Paddle like feet (webbing between toes)? Smaller hips? I'm just wondering if you have a "peanut" (or double dwarf)... (They generally can't suckle and fade within a few days of birth.)


I'm pretty sure the one that won't feed off the mother is a peanut.


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## paul2641 (Jan 29, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> Have you checked the kits teeth? Just wonder if maybe they are wonky and that is hindering it?


The teeth seem perfect.


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## paul2641 (Jan 29, 2009)

*Sabine wrote: *


> *Flashy wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Sometimes we can have all the confidence in the world and something goes wrong. Having said that, the reason about having space for more needy bunnies versus adding more bunnies to the population is one of the reasons that I give when asking people to think about breeding. Maybe you might have the potential to help out needy buns (needy in whatever way).
> ...


the one feeding off momma is the healthest kit I have ever had. I really am happy with its progress, I think the little one will die. We are trying to feed it off momma but it just won't take to her.


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## Sabine (Jan 29, 2009)

Still worth trying what BlueGiants suggested about milking abit of the milk and putting it on his lips in case he's just a runt


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## paul2641 (Jan 29, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> Paul, maybe you should wait until your rabbits are moved outside before you do any further breeding, I can't help feeling that stress may have a big part to play in the does being a bit funny with their babies, especially with Suki, does hardly ever cannabalize their babies for any other reason other then stress and feeling like the babies are in danger.
> 
> I hope Suki and Savannah aren't pregnant, you seem to have enough on your plate already It must be really stressful for you too *hugs*


God I must say I am actaully pretty run down with all I have to do since these kits are now rejected, But I got to do what I got to do. Thanks for the support.


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## paul2641 (Jan 29, 2009)

*Sabine wrote: *


> Still worth trying what BlueGiants suggested about milking abit of the milk and putting it on his lips in case he's just a runt


What do I do, Just pull on the nipple till milk comes out?


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## Sabine (Jan 29, 2009)

*paul2641 wrote: *


> *Sabine wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Still worth trying what BlueGiants suggested about milking abit of the milk and putting it on his lips in case he's just a runt
> ...


I can only draw from my experience with human babies. I expect you have to be quite gentle but maybe BlueGiants or someone who did it with rabbits before can talk you through it. A drop should suffice to give them the idea and go looking for more (babies do anyhow)


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## naturestee (Jan 29, 2009)

*paul2641 wrote: *


> God I must say I am actaully pretty run down with all I have to do since these kits are now rejected, But I got to do what I got to do. Thanks for the support.



I don't know, it doesn't sound like they are rejected by the mom to me. You justgot several peanuts,andthat double-dwarf gene that causes peanuts is always fatal. That's the problem with these dwarf breeds, they're really heartbreaking to breed. Although any breed rabbit can have problems like runts that won't thrive, babies born dead, etc. I was so upset when two of Jazzy's kits were born dead.

This is something to keep in mind if you do decide to breed on purpose though.


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## BlueGiants (Jan 29, 2009)

If you want to try, massage the nipple a little and gently stroke downward, kind of like you'd milk a cow, but much gentler. You will usually get a drop or two of milk to express. Have the baby right there and try putting it up against the milk, kind of rub it's mouth on it. Sometimes that works to get a baby to suckle.

I was afraid to mention the idea that she didn't reject the babies, but you may haveended up with a litter with a majority of "double dwarf" babies. (Strong dwarfing genes in your pair, Paul!) 

But I suspect that may be what happened. "Peanuts" (called that because they tend to look like a peanut when born), inherit a dwarfing gene from both parents. Unfortunately, it is always fatal, usually within a week after birth. It is believed that they can not process any nutrients. They generally do not even try to eat.


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## Sabine (Jan 29, 2009)

Is there any way you could take a picture of the two together so that maybe experienced breeders can give their opinion whether you have a peanut or a runt?


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## Numbat (Feb 2, 2009)

I'm confused now. Do you mean Sukura's kits have died?


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## Sabine (Feb 2, 2009)

Did I miss a post? Last time there were two left


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## Numbat (Feb 2, 2009)

Oh! Now I'm more confused! There's more posts above mine that weren't there before!!:shock:

Ahhh... There are 3 pages. What a dumb mistake! Okay, I'll start reading!


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## Sabine (Feb 2, 2009)

It probably has to do with the change over. I don't think Paul has updated since the new forum. And if he did I can't see the posts


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## Numbat (Feb 2, 2009)

I don't like the new layout of the forum as much. It's confusing!


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## irishbunny (Feb 2, 2009)

Hopefully when he comes back on he'll let us know how they are all doing.


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## paul2641 (Feb 2, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> Hopefully when he comes back on he'll let us know how they are all doing.


I also prefur the old layout, I was on this morning at like 7.30am gmt time, just didn't update on the babies, We only have one left, It is now eight days old and were feeding it 4 times a day off momma's milk but It is not putting on the weight? It is really strong and wriggling about so any advise?


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## BlueGiants (Feb 2, 2009)

Check the baby's belly after feeding it. Does it look full? Kind of like it swallowed a ping pong ball? The tummy area should look distended and tight.


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## Flashy (Feb 2, 2009)

Have you increased Sukuara's food?


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## paul2641 (Feb 2, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> Have you increased Sukuara's food?


Just a small bit?


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## paul2641 (Feb 2, 2009)

*BlueGiants wrote: *


> Check the baby's belly after feeding it. Does it look full? Kind of like it swallowed a ping pong ball? The tummy area should look distended and tight.


When it is outstreched it looks all skinny and sickly. But when it is huddled up it is all Tubby.


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## Flashy (Feb 2, 2009)

Maybe she needs her food increased more to keep her milk flowing.


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## irishbunny (Feb 2, 2009)

Do you give her unlimited hay to munch on too?


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## paul2641 (Feb 2, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> Do you give her unlimited hay to munch on too?


Yup I give her loads of hay, She is in brillent health.


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## Flashy (Feb 2, 2009)

How many pellets did you give her before (like a rough amount, I don't expect you to count pellets), and how many do you give her now?


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## paul2641 (Feb 2, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> How many pellets did you give her before (like a rough amount, I don't expect you to count pellets), and how many do you give her now?


I used to fill half of her bowl now I give a bit more then that.


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## paul2641 (Feb 3, 2009)

*paul2641 wrote: *


> *Flashy wrote: *
> 
> 
> > How many pellets did you give her before (like a rough amount, I don't expect you to count pellets), and how many do you give her now?
> ...


The last kit died .


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## Luvr of Wabbits and Polar Bears (Feb 3, 2009)

Paul I'm so sorry to hear you lost your kits.

If you need to talk i'm a good listener


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## BlueGiants (Feb 3, 2009)

Awww Paul.... I am so sorry. You tried so hard. Hugs to you for all your efforts.:hug:

:hug: We may never knowwhat happened... :?


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## irishbunny (Feb 3, 2009)

Aw sorry,
there must be some problem going on, since you have lost all your babies so far.


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## Sabine (Feb 3, 2009)

What happened?


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## paul2641 (Feb 3, 2009)

*BlueGiants wrote: *


> Awww Paul.... I am so sorry. You tried so hard. Hugs to you for all your efforts.:hug:
> 
> :hug: We may never knowwhat happened... :?


I think it was a peanut because every time we went to feed it mam would say, Its head is massive.Or is its head growing.


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## paul2641 (Feb 3, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> Aw sorry,
> there must be some problem going on, since you have lost all your babies so far.


I don't know but Maybe all my rabbits carry the dwarfing gene?


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## paul2641 (Feb 3, 2009)

*Luvr of Wabbits and Polar Bears wrote: *


> Paul I'm so sorry to hear you lost your kits.
> 
> If you need to talk i'm a good listener


It was kinda a shock I came home today and mam told me, I tryed cpr but it didn't work.


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## paul2641 (Feb 3, 2009)

*Sabine wrote: *


> What happened?


I had said earlier that it was very skinny so we had increased it's feedings to 4 times a day but that didn't work?


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## Sabine (Feb 3, 2009)

*paul2641 wrote: *


> *BlueGiants wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Awww Paul.... I am so sorry. You tried so hard. Hugs to you for all your efforts.:hug:
> ...


They can't have been all peanuts. Maybe the head looks big because the body wasn't putting on weight


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## Sabine (Feb 3, 2009)

*paul2641 wrote: *


> *Sabine wrote: *
> 
> 
> > What happened?
> ...


Didn't you keep the baby with the mom? I thought Sakura wasn't harming her babies? Maybe it got chilled?


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## paul2641 (Feb 3, 2009)

*Sabine wrote: *


> *paul2641 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *Sabine wrote: *
> ...


She rejected them, I thought she was feeding them but she wasn't.


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## Flashy (Feb 3, 2009)

None of this makes any sense to me, to be honest. I'm sorry about the kit though.


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## Sabine (Feb 3, 2009)

*paul2641 wrote: *


> *irishbunny wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Aw sorry,
> ...


They do carry the dwarfing gene being lionheads. But it's only when two of those genes meet... As far as I know the most you should expect is 25 per cent of double dwarfing gene and that's for Nethies as far as i know


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## paul2641 (Feb 3, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> None of this makes any sense to me, to be honest. I'm sorry about the kit though.


What happened was this, went down 9 days ago and found alot of hair I was like???? I looked inside to find 4 babes, the next morning I came down and found two dead freezing and the other two about to die from cold(mother peed on them). I took them out and warmed them up, They were really skinny that Is when I relized that they weren't being fed so I took out sukura to feed the babies that went grand, repeated this but neither of the babies were putting on wight they eventaully died.


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## irishbunny (Feb 3, 2009)

If all the kits off both the mothers have been rejected so far then I think it's stress, rabbits aren't really supposed to be bred in people's houses, too loud and stressful for them. A mother will only cannabalize her babies due to stress, like Suki.

Other then stress there isn't much else it could be.

Hopefully you won't have anymore litters till the rabbits are outside.


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## paul2641 (Feb 3, 2009)

*Sabine wrote: *


> *paul2641 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *irishbunny wrote: *
> ...


Bad luck could be on my side, I really don't know but I did try my best on both litters, When I have suki's second litter due on the 22nd if she rejects them should I leave them in with her? I breed suki before I new about sakuras kits.


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## Flashy (Feb 3, 2009)

Yeh, I understand that you said here, but I also know that differs to some of the things you said on msn, that's all, that's why it doesn't make sense, although some of the other things also don't make sense. But I'm not the brightest, so my opinion is pretty irrelevant.


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## Sabine (Feb 3, 2009)

*paul2641 wrote: *


> *Sabine wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *paul2641 wrote: *
> ...


But she was feeding them at the start. They only feed once or twice a day. Maybe she got stressed out being made to feed them?


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## paul2641 (Feb 3, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> If all the kits off both the mothers have been rejected so far then I think it's stress, rabbits aren't really supposed to be bred in people's houses, too loud and stressful for them. A mother will only cannabalize her babies due to stress, like Suki.
> 
> Other then stress there isn't much else it could be.
> 
> Hopefully you won't have anymore litters till the rabbits are outside.


Your prob right were moving them soon, but the kitchen were they are at the moment hasn't been too loud lately.


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## paul2641 (Feb 3, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> Yeh, I understand that you said here, but I also know that differs to some of the things you said on msn, that's all, that's why it doesn't make sense, although some of the other things also don't make sense. But I'm not the brightest, so my opinion is pretty irrelevant.


What did I say different?:?


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## irishbunny (Feb 3, 2009)

Having people around all the time can do it too, I can't see anyother reason why all of them are being rejected.


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## paul2641 (Feb 3, 2009)

*Sabine wrote: *


> *paul2641 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *Sabine wrote: *
> ...


Well I really don't know I only looked in and they seemed fatty But then they all became skinny.


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## Sabine (Feb 3, 2009)

I can't quite make sense of all this but one thing is for sure. You must change your approach to breeding or preferably stop experimenting. Maybe an experienced breeder might take you under his/her wings to help you through the next lot of litters so that this tragedy doesn't repeat again


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## paul2641 (Feb 3, 2009)

*Sabine wrote: *


> I can't quite make sense of all this but one thing is for sure. You must change your approach to breeding or preferably stop experimenting. Maybe an experienced breeder might take you under his/her wings to help you through the next lot of litters so that this tragedy doesn't repeat again


I wasn't experimenting, I didn't mix breeds.


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## irishbunny (Feb 3, 2009)

Experimenting isn't just mixing breeds.


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## paul2641 (Feb 3, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> Experimenting isn't just mixing breeds.


So you mean breeding all my rabbits? Because I don't know there genetics?


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## Sabine (Feb 3, 2009)

*paul2641 wrote: *


> *Sabine wrote: *
> 
> 
> > I can't quite make sense of all this but one thing is for sure. You must change your approach to breeding or preferably stop experimenting. Maybe an experienced breeder might take you under his/her wings to help you through the next lot of litters so that this tragedy doesn't repeat again
> ...


I am not talking about mixing breeds but throwing together pet shop bunnies that you only just bought. Sakura was in your house a few days and she got pregnant. Suki was bred to Roger from the word go and i put money on Savannah expecting a litter. And you weren't even set up for breeding. All of them were bought and kept as pet bunnies


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## paul2641 (Feb 3, 2009)

*Sabine wrote: *


> *paul2641 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *Sabine wrote: *
> ...


Savannah isn't excepting a litter at all. Suki is though.


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## Sabine (Feb 3, 2009)

*paul2641 wrote: *


> *irishbunny wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Experimenting isn't just mixing breeds.
> ...


It's not only their genetics you don't know. You don't even get a chance to get to know them as animals, what they are like...


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## irishbunny (Feb 3, 2009)

I think what Sabine basically means is your breeding irresponsibly, you know, breeding them when your not setup for it and basically breeding them as soon as you get the rabbit, and you are paying the price by the does rejecting the kits.


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## Sabine (Feb 3, 2009)

I do hope all the people that encouraged your breeding will be there to support you when Suki has her litter. i'd love to come up with advice but i lack experience and i can't make sense of what is happening. I don't think an outside hutch setting is an option though because it is still going to be cold in a few weeks time. Maybe the shed option?


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## BlueGiants (Feb 3, 2009)

Paul, it sounds like Sakura may not be cut out to be a mother. Not all rabbits have good maternal instinct. I think I'd retire her to be a companion bunny.


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## paul2641 (Feb 3, 2009)

*BlueGiants wrote: *


> Paul, it sounds like Sakura may not be cut out to be a mother. Not all rabbits have good maternal instinct. I think I'd retire her to be a companion bunny.


I was thinking that, But I really want suki to be a mother as I love her patterns she is so darn cuteinkbouce:.


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## Flashy (Feb 3, 2009)

Unfortunately, we don't always get what we want. I suggest you sit down with a breeder and talk them through everything rhat happened before, and maybe that can advise you for where you went wrong, and what you can do to give them a better chance next time.


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## paul2641 (Feb 3, 2009)

*Flashy wrote: *


> Unfortunately, we don't always get what we want. I suggest you sit down with a breeder and talk them through everything rhat happened before, and maybe that can advise you for where you went wrong, and what you can do to give them a better chance next time.


I understand I can't get everything I want, So I will live with what I can get.


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## Peek-a-boo (Feb 3, 2009)

I agree with whats been said about the stress to me i feel maybe to much fuss is happening over the babies i know you said you checked the nest 2-3 times aday but how many times was your mum, other siblings or dad were looking at them. if i had a baby i really wouldnt want everyone looking and holding it all the time. 

i suggest when your other doe has her babies check them once a day and dont let your mum or anyone else check the nest. once a day will be enough in my opinion.

has anyone got any pictures of say an unfed kit all shrivled time to worry stage and a fed kit? just so Paul knows what to look out for as i feel its also panic on pauls side of teh kits not being fed when they are. i know 2 of Crystals kits were slightly wrinkly but they were being fed and both survived and grew upbut id imagine an unexperienced person would automatically panic.


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## irishbunny (Feb 3, 2009)

I send him a youtube video link before which shows a fed kit and an unfed kit, not sure if he kept the link or not though.


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## paul2641 (Feb 3, 2009)

*irishbunny wrote: *


> I send him a youtube video link before which shows a fed kit and an unfed kit, not sure if he kept the link or not though.


If it was through pm onRO I still have it, but if it wasthrough emailmore then likely I wouldn'thave it,all my links are on the old computer.


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## irishbunny (Feb 3, 2009)

I gave it on a topic, not sure which though.


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## Sabine (Feb 3, 2009)

Could you move Suki into a sheltered shed? I remember you saying you had a shed that wasn't used?


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## Numbat (Feb 3, 2009)

A sheltered shed sounds like a good idea.

*BlueGiants wrote: *


> Paul, it sounds like Sakura may not be cut out to be a mother. Not all rabbits have good maternal instinct. I think I'd retire her to be a companion bunny.


She's only had one litter though, hasn't she? Sometimes 1st mums don't know what to do. If you want to start breeding, maybe get rabbits from breeders? Good luck! Sorry to hear the kits died


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## irishbunny (Feb 3, 2009)

She and Suki may be fine mothers once out of the house.


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## murph72 (Feb 5, 2009)

I can say that I really don't think a house is a good setting to breed bunnies. I have a seperate building designed for my breeding. I make sure that there is limited noise and disturbance for the expectant mothers during their pregnancy as the stress can lead to them losing their kits. I also do not move a mother after she is pregnant because this too is stressful. Having a place that is quiet is the first thing you need prior to even think about breeding any of your bunnies.

The second thing I'd add is that I only check my newborns twice a day until they are old enough to have their eyes open and to be handled more often. I check them in the morning when I do my rounds and in the afternoon when I do the same. The rabbits are used to this schedule and they are comfortable with it. The moms will tend to feed their babies twice a day. Most likely I will see the kits after one of these feedings during the day. Their bellies will be round from all the milk mom has given them. 

I do not handle my bunnies much in the first two weeks as moms are pretty good at doing their jobs if left alone. You need to have some faith in her that if she has them in the nest she's going to probably care enough about them to also feed them. Does that don't feed their kits, in my experience, is rather rare. It's more common to find first time mothers who scatter their kits in the nest box or who have them outside the nest box due to inexperience in birthing most likely. However, even if they do this the first time they will not necessarily do it the second time. 

To be honest, I find breeding the Lionheads one of the easier breeds to breed. The fact that you're having such difficulty tells me that there is either something wrong in your setup or your care of the mothers and their kits. I'd advise doing as much research as possible and having the proper setup before risking another one of your does with another pregnancy. Keep in mind that pregnancies can go wrong and if you are not prepared to deal with the situation, you may lose your bunny. That's a hard price to pay just to try your hand a breeding.


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## TinysMom (Feb 5, 2009)

*murph72 wrote: *


> I can say that I really don't think a house is a good setting to breed bunnies. I have a seperate building designed for my breeding.



Oh wow....I wish I'd known that before my 70+ litters were bred, born and raised in the house...

Now I gotta go build a barn...(oops - I gave up breeding - I don't need a barn).

I've known several other breeders though who have their rabbits (and breed) in the house - sometimes a separate section like a basement or a separate room.

Just my .02


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## MyLOVEABLES!! (Feb 5, 2009)

TinysMom wrote:


> *murph72 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > I can say that I really don't think a house is a good setting to breed bunnies.Â  I have a seperate building designed for my breeding.Â
> ...



would just like to say.. thnx for that comment... i see a fight or something going on here soon... please everyone dont kill me after this comment.


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## BSAR (Feb 6, 2009)

I don't know the whole story to this as I just skimmed through the this page and the last but I would say to make sure they don't ever get bred again.

They obviously aren't cut out to be bunny parents and you don't sound like you care that you are buying them and breeding them right away.

And just because the mom is cute doesn't mean she needs to be bred, she might not have babies that look like her.

One question is Sakura and Suki the same rabbit?


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## Numbat (Feb 6, 2009)

No they're not


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## murph72 (Feb 6, 2009)

I will not apologize for my statements. I feel that you either can afford to breed in an environment that is free from stress for your bunnies, or you shouldn't be breeding. I stand by that 100%. I think this is especially true in a household where there are other pets, small children, or many people that will be disturbing the does. Yes, you can have them in your house if you have a calm house and the inhabitants of that house are going to give the does their space, privacy, and will know the proper way to handle them....however, and here's the big however, I'm getting the idea here that Paul's family may not know what they are doing with breeding and his household is not the best environment to raise rabbits in.

Disagree with me if you want and I'm certainly not trying to start an argument, but I am tired of people who think that breeding rabbits is something you should do if you have two rabbits that you like. Breeding rabbits should not be done on a whim. It is harmful to the rabbits you profess to love. If you don't know what you're doing you put your own rabbits at risk. I've personally had to help give birth to stuck kits. If you're not prepared for such a situation, it's too late to learn online what to do. If you don't act your doe dies. In my opinion, that's too late to learn what you're doing. Research first. Set up a proper area to breed first. Know the market for the rabbits you want to sell. Then, and only then, think aboutbreeding your rabbits.


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## whaleyk98 (Feb 6, 2009)

Ditto!:thumbup


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## Flashy (Feb 6, 2009)

*murph72 wrote: *


> but I am tired of people who think that breeding rabbits is something you should do if you have two rabbits that you like. Breeding rabbits should not be done on a whim. It is harmful to the rabbits you profess to love. If you don't know what you're doing you put your own rabbits at risk. I've personally had to help give birth to stuck kits. If you're not prepared for such a situation, it's too late to learn online what to do. If you don't act your doe dies. In my opinion, that's too late to learn what you're doing. Research first. Set up a proper area to breed first. Know the market for the rabbits you want to sell. Then, and only then, think aboutbreeding your rabbits.


I so agree with this 100%. I made horrific mistakes and only bred successfully after I realised I didn't know as much as I thought and went out and learnt, and BOY did I learn! I just really, really agree with this.


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## irishbunny (Feb 6, 2009)

I really don't think a house is a good place to breed either, I've said that before I think, unless you have a quiet rooms that you won't be in and out of alot and isn't noisy.


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## Sabine (Feb 6, 2009)

Well put murph72:yeahthat:


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## Happi Bun (Feb 6, 2009)

It could also be due to bad genetics. That's the problem with putting two rabbits together when you don't know their background. Though I admit I'm thinking it's an environment issue. I honestly don't know why you want to breed so bad Paul, especially after all the unnecessary heartbreak the rabbits (and yourself) have been put through. If you are serious about breeding correctly (to improve the breed) then you really need to step back, research, and do it correctly.

Just my two cents.


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## irishbunny (Feb 6, 2009)

Everyone feels the same Happi Bun, so hopefully Paul will take that on board.


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## Numbat (Feb 6, 2009)

Yup. How are the rabbits Paul? When is Suki due? Are you keeping Savannah?


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## murph72 (Feb 6, 2009)

Happi Bun--you definitely make a good point. Genetics could certainly be an issue since they are unknown in these two rabbits. Since they are pet store bunnies there's the possibility that this might even be inbreeding. I've found that in my local area it is the same breeders that seem to supply rabbits to the pet stores, so these rabbits might be more closely related than is safe to breed.


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## irishbunny (Feb 7, 2009)

Replied in wrong topic!


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## Flashy (Feb 7, 2009)

Paul has been made very aware of the problems like genetics, pet shop bunnies, rushing into it, lack of knowledge, lack of preparation, lack of resources, unideal circumstances, etc. All these points are right and valid, and have been raised to Paul several times before. Hopefully this time he will take them on board more than he has before.


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## irishbunny (Feb 7, 2009)

I was talking to Paul on MSN and he told me his plans and if he sticks to them he'll be on the right track.


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## whaleyk98 (Feb 7, 2009)

Just a question...what is MSN???


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## Flashy (Feb 7, 2009)

Msn is what people call Windows Live Messenger, which is a one to one messenging service. http://download.live.com/?sku=messenger

In terms of Paul, often he seems to say what he thinks people want to hear, so what he says his plans are, and what his plans are may be different. HOWEVER, having said that, I'm hoping that this experience has alerted Paul to the risks and problems of breeding and he will now start to do it properly, and get a good, solid plan in place, with help from a decent, responsible breeder.


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## TinysMom (Feb 7, 2009)

*murph72 wrote: *


> I will not apologize for my statements. I feel that you either can afford to breed in an environment that is free from stress for your bunnies, or you shouldn't be breeding. I stand by that 100%. I think this is especially true in a household where there are other pets, small children, or many people that will be disturbing the does. Yes, you can have them in your house if you have a calm house and the inhabitants of that house are going to give the does their space, privacy, and will know the proper way to handle them....however, and here's the big however, I'm getting the idea here that Paul's family may not know what they are doing with breeding and his household is not the best environment to raise rabbits in.
> 
> Disagree with me if you want and I'm certainly not trying to start an argument, but I am tired of people who think that breeding rabbits is something you should do if you have two rabbits that you like. Breeding rabbits should not be done on a whim. It is harmful to the rabbits you profess to love. If you don't know what you're doing you put your own rabbits at risk. I've personally had to help give birth to stuck kits. If you're not prepared for such a situation, it's too late to learn online what to do. If you don't act your doe dies. In my opinion, that's too late to learn what you're doing. Research first. Set up a proper area to breed first. Know the market for the rabbits you want to sell. Then, and only then, think aboutbreeding your rabbits.


First of all - to the person who saw a fight coming on - there is no need for fighting. Many times on this forum we may disagree with someone - but we go on with our own beliefs, etc

I can think of at least three lionhead breeders I know or have known who have rabbitries or portions of their rabbitry in the house. All three are breeders who go to shows and win awards - so these aren't "backyard breeders". 

I also agree with having a stress-free environment - BUT - I also believe that rabbits can become acclimated to the environment so it is stress-free.

For example - my rabbitry is right off my living room - and my back door is right there in the rabbitry. To put our dogs in the back yard - they go through the rabbitry - several times per day (in and out). Frequently the door is left open to let fresh air in...

My rabbits couldn't care less about my dogs - they're so used to it now. They know that the dogs are going THROUGH the rabbitry and not stopping to sniff at cages.

So my does couldn't care less about the dogs. In fact, I've had some that would come to the front of the cage to watch the dogs as they went by.

When I had pregnant and nursing does - they knew the environment - they knew about the dogs and to be honest with you - the dogs never stressed them out. I watched them to see how they handled it. Because most of my does were born and raised here - or had lived with us for a bit before being bred...to them it was just "home".

Now if I had just bought a doe - I would not breed her until she had been in the rabbitry for a while and felt "safe". I also would put her in a cage where she would be back away from the action and so it wouldn't bother her (depending upon the side of the room she is in).

In addition - I check my babies several times per day - even from the day they're born. Frequently my family will check in on them too. 

Once again though - my does are used to this...they're used to us being "in their face" so to speak.....

Plus - sometimes I will try to have cheerios around (especially at first) and when I go to check a doe's nest - I'll give her a cheerio or two. I've had does watch me come into the rabbitry and practically beg me to come over and open their door so they could have a treat. I forget which doe it was - but one of my does once tried to pull her nestbox to the door so I WOULD look at her babies...it was hilarious to see her trying to drag that thing closer to the door.

Do I expect other breeders to have that relationship with their does? Nope. I don't even have that relationship with all of my does. The ones that are more shy - I do honor that and while I will still check their babies - I might not do it as often - or I might open the door and do a count real quickly and move on if the doe seems nervous.

I respect Murph72 for what they believe....even if I disagree with them. I've learned over the years I bred that there's a whole lot more to breeding than I'll ever know - I'll never know it all - and that there are different styles and approaches to being a breeder.

I think what is most important is that you put your rabbit first....no matter whether they live in a barn - a hutch outside - a shed - or inside. You need to know them well enough to meet their needs so they feel safe and secure.

Let me close by sharing a cute story....we had one doe named Ainsley and I loved her to pieces. But Ainsley had a problem...she was claustophobic. If she was in a "middle" cage in a row of cages - she had fits. It stressed her out terribly. Put her in an end cage - and she was just as happy as could be.

One day we were cleaning the rabbitry and had put all the cages outside while we mopped the floors, etc. As Art was restacking cages - he put Ainsley in the middle of a row. I asked him to move her (before he was about to put in the next cage beside her. He said, "She'll be fine". He placed that next cage and she had fits in her cage - running in circles - very agitated. He stood and watched for about 5 minutes and said, "What's wromg with her?" I explained her problem - he moved her to an outside position (keeping her in her same cage) - and she laid down and went to sleep.

To me - as a person - she was secure in either location - her cage would've been fine. But I knew my doe - I knew what she needed to feel secure...and she got it. 

Looking back on that - I feel like I put her needs first...and I'm glad I did.


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## Happi Bun (Feb 7, 2009)

^I just wanted to say, WOW! Amazing post. :bow


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## Elf Mommy (Feb 7, 2009)

Well put, Peg!


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## irishbunny (Feb 8, 2009)

If your does are used to being inside Peg then that's great but obviously something must be going wrong if Paul's does are abandoning the kits, plus I don't think his mother is too happy about having them in the kitchen by the sounds of it, and I can't blame her.


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## Peek-a-boo (Feb 8, 2009)

like i said i do generally believe theres to many people fussing over the babies all the time imagine you having a baby and everyone fussing over it all day everyday. i also think Paul is panicing in thinking there being rejected when there not i can understand how that could happen. i also know the excitment of having baby buns and wanting to look at them all the time ive been there myself. my bedroom was quite a noisy place and Crystal didnt reject her babies at all i used to check her nest twice a day with the whole family so we all got to see them. but i do understand each rabbit would probably react in different ways


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## murph72 (Feb 8, 2009)

Peek-a-boo.....That's a great way for you to do it, to have everyone check the bunnies with you so that you know that they're time being handled is limited, but everyone still gets a chance to see them. 

Peg, although your situation may have been a good one within the home, I'm not so sure that it is the norm. You had a seperate space that was devoted to the bunnies. You didn't just slap them in cages in the midst of a chaotic room. You knew the personalities of your bunnies and you knew who was handling the kits and when they were being handled. I'm sure you also did research prior to breeding and knew when it was necessary to handle the kits and when they were best left alone with their mom. That being said, most people do not have a separate room in their home to devote to their rabbitry, nor is everyone's house condusive to breeding. Although mine might be, I've found my rabbits are happier in their own space. On top of that, I think I have far too many buns for in one home. I think I'd have to switch them and live in the barn if they all lived in the house.

I would also like toadd that my rabbits are around my five cats often, but I do not trust my cats to be left alone with their kits. An adult bunny will stand up for itself against a cat or dog. I've saved my own cats from "bunnies on attack" several times. However, the kits are defenseless. A friend of mine lost three of her four kits because she trusted her dog too far. She left the door open and they were in a playpen. When she returned to check on them, only one was left as the dog probably got full and left. I also lost my first rabbit to a neighbor's dog who broke through the fencing and mauled the rabbit to death before my parents heard it's screams. I guess it's these experiences that leave me a bit leary about having my rabbits with any other type of pet unattended as I know that not all of them can be trusted at all times.

I also do not let my neice and nephew unattended in the rabbitry when there are kits. A three year old won't think twice to picking up the bunny and then dropping it. Besides that, the kids like to scream far more than my bunnies are comfortable with. During pregnancy, especially, I limit their visits and stress that quiet is a necessity for the welfare of the babies.


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