# Chase - UPDATED 5/22/10



## Amy27 (Jan 29, 2009)

I can not even believe I am posting this. I swear this poor rabbit can't go through anymore. Chase went back today to get her stitches removed. The vet and I decided they would show me how to do Sub Q fluids and they would take a urine sample today to see what the mineral content was. 

The sub q fluids didn't go as well as planned. Chase pulled off the needle twice and that was with the vets help but I will get through that. The vet assured me it won't hurt her and the needle won't break to just stick her again or try later. 

What is most upsetting is they couldn't get a urine sample. Chase's urine was to thick with sludge. It has been 10 days since the stone was removed how is that possible. I am just so upset. 

I am going to go to another vet on monday and unless she has another idea her current vet and I talked about sticking a catheter up there and flushing the bladder so hopefully another stone won't form. I am really just blown away. 

The chances of Chase being able to live with this is looking slimmer and slimmer. How much do I put her through. When do I say enough is enough. I can't think about losing my baby but she is so unhappy with all this stuff going on. 

I did get a copy of Chase's lab results which I am going to post hoping someone on here will have an idea. 

The stone analysis from October is 100% Calcium Carbonate. 

The urine culture showed no organsisms seen and no aerobic growth. 

CBC: WBC 6.1 RBC 4.9 HGB 11.1 HCT 31 MCV 65 MCH 22.8 Comment says Polychromasia +1

Differential: Heterophil Count 2623, Lymphocytes 3416, Monocytes 61, Eosinophils 0, Basophils 0, Platelet Estimate Adequate Platelet Count 293, Comment blood smear reviewed by technologist. 

Comp, Mammalian Chemistries: SGOT (AST) 22 Comment: The chemistry results were calculated from a times two dilution which may falsely decrease the calcium. Electrolytes may also be inaccurate because of sample dilution. SGPT (ALT) 40, Total Bilirubin 0.0 verified by repeat analysis, Alkaline Phosphatase 28, Total Protein 5.8, Albumin 4.0, Cholesterol 14, BUN 22, Creatine 1.0, Phosphorus 7.0, Calcium 12.6, Glucose 326, Sodium 160, Potassium 3.8, Chloride 112, CPK 1094, Globulin 1.8. 

Histopath Report: Source/History: Spayed female rabbit. Age not indicated. Second bladder stone in three months. Stone analysis 100 percent calcium carbonate. Incisional biopsy of bladder wall submitted, all tissues processed. 

Description: The specimen is serially sectioned and examined in its entirety and four step levels are examined. The transitional mucosa is diffusely moderately hyperplastic and somewhat spongiotic appearing. There are areas of erosion and probablt ulceration of the mucosa present with underlying stronal hemorrhage. The submucosal stroma is also irregularly expanded by edematous areas with moderate patchy mixed inflammation observed. Lymphocytes and plasma cells predominate with fewer heterophils. Scattered hemosiderophages are also observed. No infectious agents are seen with H&E stain. 

Microscopic findings: urinary bladder: Chronic, hyperplastic, erosive and midly hemorrhagic cystitis with submucosal edema. 

Comments: Rabbits may have calculi within the bladder, urethra, kidney, or urter. Dietray management is an important part of treating and preventing calculi of the urinary system of rabbits. The alkaline PH of rabbit urine as well as the generally high concentration of calcium in the urine increases the chances of precipitation and calculi formation. Decreasing dietary calcium is recommended and this is done by diets of grass hay and green vegetables with reducing pellets. Vitamin and mineral supplementation should be discountinued. Also, many rabbits with urinary calculi are overweight and increased exercise and decreased total caloric intake are also recommended. The changes with the bladder wall in this case are not specific but typical of those occuring secondary to the preserve of urinary calculi. There was no evidence of neoplasia. 

Ok I know that was really long but I wanted to give all the test results. Thanks everyone for being so helpful


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## Maureen Las (Jan 29, 2009)

Thanks for posting the labs !!

I really feel bad for you and Chase. 

I would think that Randy would be our prime interpretor of these findings but I (I don't really know!!!!) don't believe that this type of build-up is being caused by diet at this point. 
The forum will be down tonight so it may be impossible to get Randy's take on this tonight so please try to be patient. 

I do agree that if you cannot find a solution to this that it would be difficult to put Chase through a lot more invasive procedures. 

Just take it a day at a time for now and try to do the best that you can..that's what you are doing already!! You are a great bunny mom..
and I'll ray:for you and Chase 

In the meantime I'll try to take a better look at those results ........


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## tonyshuman (Jan 29, 2009)

Without going and doing some research on bladder tissue structure, the most I can glean from these results is that the vet thinks it's dietary, like angieluv said. It's not cancer, and there is no infection. 
Randy may know more. :?


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## BethM (Jan 29, 2009)

Oh no! I was hoping for good news about Chase and now I'm sad she's still not feeling well.

Give her some extra nose rubs from me.
And some hugs for you, too.
:hug:


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## NorthernAutumn (Jan 30, 2009)

Well, I'm pleased that there are some testing results for Randy and others to look at... I feel so sad for the pain Chase (and you) are coping with:hug:. 

I am curious about the line about the urine being of particularly alkaline pH... I wonder if pH adjustment of the urine might be the key?... But how?


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## NorthernAutumn (Feb 1, 2009)

*This is what transpired on the temporary forum...*

*BethM:*
Can someone give me a link to the yahoo group? I neglected to go over there before the move, and now I can't find a link to it.

I've been worried about Amy27 and her bunny Chase, and was hoping she might be over there. Or, has anyone had contact with her, and if so, how are she and Chase doing?

Thanks
*
ElfMommy:*

Here's the link:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Rabbits/
I haven't read through the posts yet, though.



*BethM:*

Thanks for the link.

Didn't find Amy27 or Chase, though. 



*NorthernAutumn:*

The last I read, Amy had given us a rundown of the lab results. As I remember,Chase's bladder was sludgy AGAIN! The results suggested that it was still a dietary issue, but a high degree of alkalinity in the urine was cited as a possible influence...

Hopefully someone will be able to read those results and help her out as soon as the forum comes back...

Autumn



*Amy27:*

OMG Beth you are so sweet. Chase is doing ok. Though she is very unhappy with me and her sub q fluids. I am not getting the fluids in her that she needs to get. I get some in her and she flips out and then for an hour after she runs around like crazy, itching and trying to lick the spot I gave the fluids. Then hides from me for about 6 hours. I have sent out a ton of emails today to see if I can get a vet tech to come to my house to admin the fluids. I also tried the vet tech program at a local school to see if a student will come.

I have been watching Chase closely and she is just not drinking. I have slept next to her cage and when I hear the water bottle I look up to see who is drinking and it is never Chase. I am going to try and syrigne feed her some water and juice today. I need to get her to drink and when I put the juice in her bowl she won't touch it. I am hoping if I get her to like the taste she will drink it out of her bowl. I have cranberry and berry juice but may look at the store for other flavors. Does anyone know if there is a flavor that most buns love?

I really appreciate you asking about me Beth. You seriously doesn't know how much that means. I have no support from family and friends. Even my dad who is in school for vet tech. If it wasn't for the support of this board I would probably have given up. Again thank you so much. It truly made my day. 


*Amy27:*

NorthernAutumn you posted the same time I did. The vet that read Chase's result does not know anything about her diet. I think that vet was going off the most common reason. I wish my vet could have sent more information on Chase's condition so that vet would have known Chase hasn't received high calcium things in years and the last three months it has been cut down even more. She didn't even send Chase's age.

I am really starting to believe it is her water intake. I think she may urinate 1-2 times a day. I don't think she is going enough to expel the calcium.


Tomorow is her appt with the really good exotic vet so I am crossing my fingers. But if she won't drink water except for sub q and syringe fluids I don't know what the vet can do.


*NorthernAutumn:*

I know we're going to lose this conversation when we finish moving...

Sorry for the results misinterpretation. Your vet really should have been far more communicative...

I wonder if she would drink more out of bottle (dunno, but maybe?)
You could get a blended cranberry juice with another flavour. I know that I personally find cranberry juice hard on my tum, and prefer it cut with peach juice if possible..

I'm so excited to hear you're going to the good exotic vet!!!! From what I've understood, the one you're with is not really up to the job... I have my fingers crossed for you and Chase tomorrow!

PS: Slatey says his ears are crossed for Chase too

Autumn

_Last edited on Sun Feb 1st, 2009 04:32 pm by NorthernAutumn_


*BethM:*

If I remember correctly, you soak Chase's greens so they are nice and wet before she gets them? So she's getting some water that way. Even some sub-q fluids are helpful, even if it's not as much as you might want her to get. (I know it's frustrating, though, to go through all that.)

I have heard a lot of people on here using diluted apple juice to try to get their bunny to drink more. Or a flavored Pedialyte? (Though that has a lot of sugar, so too much of that wouldn't be good for Chase.)

Autumn posted before I could get mine written, the cranberry blended with peach sounds good, too. Is grape juice ok for bunnies? Maybe a white grape/peach blend? 
My Amelia doesn't like tart things, so maybe Chase is like that, too. 

Good luck at the new vet tomorrow. I'll be keeping my fingers (and ears and paws) crossed for you.



*NorthernAutumn:*

Well, they've got grape-flavoured pedialyte that goes down a treat!
Grapes themselves are very high in sugar, but are also very juicy.
Perhaps it is worth putting more juicy fruits into her?

OOOH!
Brain fart!
Pineapple is juicy, and also has a more acidic pH. If her urine is overly alkaline, I bet the acids in pineapple may bring it down a bit (while getting more water into her!)

Autumn


*BethM:*

Pineapple! Of course! 
If she will eat it, that would be wonderful. To keep the more acidic properties and good enzymes, use fresh.

Nick loves that if it's whizzed in the food processor just a bit, so it's more like a mush.

To cut down sugar from the fruit juice a bit, maybe dilute with water? So it's more a flavoring agent than full-on juice.

_Last edited on Sun Feb 1st, 2009 04:56 pm by BethM_



*NorthernAutumn:*

Seriously Beth, I can't believe none of us following this thread thought of it before.... 
DUH!
Yeah.... canned is way too sugary, but it might sucker her into trying it the first time if she won't go for the fresh. Blending up the core would also provide some roughage...


PS: I"m cutting and copying as we go, so I'll repost all of this once the forum comes back.

_Last edited on Sun Feb 1st, 2009 04:59 pm by NorthernAutumn_


*Amy27:*
Chase's greens are soak so you are right she is getting water that way. I am diluting the juice so it is about 1/4 juice 3/4 water. I tried the bottle, grabbed one while I was out and she doesn't seem to know what to do with it.

I am so excited because it seems like you guys came up with a great idea but I am not sure I understand lol sorry I don't know much about this stuff.

Chase's blood test alkaline was 28 and normal is 4-20 so it was high. Does it make a difference if it is high in the blood or the urine? I am just trying to make sure I understand but if I give something more acidic like pineapple it will make the alkaline go down?

Thanks guys for the great idea. I will get some pineapple. I have never used fresh pinapple before so when you say ground the core up to you don't mean the rough outside but the middle correct? Should I add water to that also or just when I am giving juice? Does it matter if I give her whole pieces or if I ground it up? Do you know how much is ok to give?

I just got back from the store but now I may have to make another trip out lol. I have tried apples and banana's before and Chase wouldn't eat it but she might like pineapple. Ok heading back out lol gotta try this and see if she likes it.

Thanks for copying this to transfer to RO. I was trying to write it all down but that is easier lol.

You both have been so much help through all of this. Thank you.


*BethM:*

Fresh Pineapple directions:
When you choose your pineapple, get one that smells good, and it should be ripe. 

Cut off the leafy top, and the bottom. Then you can stand it on end and remove the outside, just slice down. (I usually do 4 sides, like a square, then the corners.) You'll want to take off enough so the "eyes" are mostly gone, these have little black seeds in them, if there are some still on there, just cut a little more off.

Then I will cut it into quarters, from the top down. If I'm preparing it for myself, I'll just cut out the core from the center, you should be able to see it. It's edible, but really fibrous. Then cut into chunks.

Just be careful when you're cutting the pineapple! If you put the leftover into an airtight container, it will last for a few days. Also, beware of the stuff they put out on store salad bars. It's usually treated with lemon juice or straight citric acid to keep it from turning brown. I can eat a lot of fresh-cut pineapple, but 2 pieces from the salad bar burns my tongue.

For Nick, I left the core in, and used maybe a third or a quarter of the pineapple wedge. I tossed it into the food processor and whizzed it until it was pretty liquidy, then gave it to him in a dish. If you have a good blender, you could use that instead, just put smaller pieces in. 

If you don't have a food processor or blender, you could just cut into small pieces, and maybe mix some in with Chase's salad. I gave Nick the ground up pineapple because he was reluctant to take the chunk, but once he tried it he liked it.

I'm not sure how much would be best to give, I just gave Nick a couple tablespoons at a time. I wouldn't give a whole lot, since there is sugar in it. You could dilute with water to stretch it, if Chase likes the flavor she might drink pineapple flavored water.

_Last edited on Sun Feb 1st, 2009 06:22 pm by BethM_


*BethM:*

I used to have a recipe for a drink that used the core of the pineapple, put it into a pitcher with a bit of water, and some mint leaves. I believe there was also sugar and maybe a splash of lemon juice, too, but you could just use the core, and/or some of the pineapple fruit. Then leave it in the fridge overnight. It flavors the water, and is light and refreshing.
Easier than blending and mixing.

(The recipe also calls for the outside part that gets cut off, but I hesitate to do that because I don't know what sort of pesticides are used on those.)



*Amy27:*
Thanks got it all cut up. I gave Chase a few really bite size pieces. So far she just turned her back on me but right now she is upset and me and will only take something really good from me. I will see if she eats them. She seems to have something againts bowls or dishes. I can't get her to eat or drink out of them. Or the water bottles. I have tried putting juices and as someone on RO suggested even purifing cilantro her fav and she won't touch it in a dish. If she doesn't eat the pieces I will try my blender and see if she will take it that way. When I feed her her greens she gets full pieces of lettuce and cilantro so I don't know if she would eat the pineapple if it was in there.

I swear I have learned so much all around trying to take care of Chase. How to cut up whole pineapples. When cranberries are in season and where to buy them when they aren't. lol


*NorthernAutumn:*

Was just going to mention that Chase may not take to all these new-fangled foods right now, as she is under some degree of stress from her vet visits.
She may not go for it immediately, but I bet that she might change her mind a few weeks from now...

*ETA:* Worst case scenario, you could syringe feed. But that will make her pretty mad  I'm assuming that she simply doesn't FEEL thirsty, for whatever reason...
_
Last edited on Sun Feb 1st, 2009 06:42 pm by NorthernAutumn_


*
Naturestee:*

My buns won't eat pineapple. I can't eat it fresh either, it makes my mouth hurt. Too acidic. You could try giving her the juice straight or dilute it with water and see if she'll take that.

IMO, try a bunch of different juices or Pedialyte flavors mixed with water to see if it will get her to drink more. Flavored Pedialyte is actually pretty low in sugar and what's in there is simple sugar, the easier to digest stuff. My buns like the apple flavor. Always keep a bowl of plain water available in case she doesn't like the flavor you've added.

All I can think of re: the sludge is that her metabolism is set to high calcium excretion. From my readings, sometimes that just happens and it has nothing to do with the diet. Hopefully increasing her fluids with flavored water and sub-q fluids will help keep her bladder flushed. I do wonder why she itches at the spot where the fluids were given. That doesn't sound normal. Dora really didn't seem to care about her sub-q injection sites despite being a fussy baby bunny.

It shouldn't be too much longer before RO is back up. I hope Randy can take a look at those test results and see if he can come up with ideas for treatment/causes.

*--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And That's Your Weekend Update!!!!*


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## ra7751 (Feb 2, 2009)

Well....I think you might be looking in the wrong place. If Chase were here....I would be looking for the reason of that 326 Glucose level. I think that might be a little...well maybe a lot.....too high. Did that not raise a flag at your vet? Caught my attention above all else. I will need some time to look over the labs. I don't know that I would be using the various juices mentioned...nor would I be using Pedialyte.I don't think she needs electrolytes right now....she just needs fluids going thru.In this case I would be using lots of Sodium Chloride sub-q. Since it seems you might be having some difficulty with the fluids......use a 21g butterfly catheter with luer lock. Administer fluids via large syringe (I use 60ml) to "push" fluids in quicker. It is also possible to administer multiple syringes (fluids or meds) simply by removing one syringe off the catheter and twisting on another.....multiple treatments on one single stick. I would also try to acidify the urine....ascorbic acid is the best since it is water soluble. It's Vitamin C. You can offer small slices of oranges or offer the supplements....guinea pigs require supplemental Vit C so tasty tabs are available. As always, in moderation. Might help with a few rounds of Metacam in case there is any inflammation in the bladder. Change your water to a low mineral content bottled water...not distilled water but low mineral content. And I would really like to seeseveral EC titers over a period of several weeks....and there is a reason for that. And one more thing....look into the pupils of her eyes...do you see anything in there?

Randy


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## tonyshuman (Feb 2, 2009)

Is glucose level in rabbits similar to that in humans? ie I know that 326 blood glucose for a person is VERY high--is it similarly dangerous for bunnies?


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## ra7751 (Feb 2, 2009)

Normal glucose level in a rabbit is 78-155. Now with rabbits, you have to allow some "wiggle" room just for the stress levels encountered with travel and the different sights and sounds in the clinic when you are dealing with labs. But I would havea hard time justifying a 326. 

I think this is going to be one of those issues that will come in many pieces and will require extensive veterinay intervention in determining the root cause of this problem. Everything about Chase needs to be examined starting with overall physical condition and diet.

Randy


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## Amy27 (Feb 2, 2009)

Randy thanks for all your help. The vet I saw today said she doesn't think pushing fluids as in getting Chase to drink more will push out the sludge, there is to much so I am giving up on the juices for now. I was hoping the juices would encourage Chase to drink water since she really doesn't drink much. She upped the sub q fluids. I will now give them every day, 150ml for 4 days. I will also be giving Metacam for 4 days to help with the inflammation in the bladder.Chase will go back to the vet on Friday and they will do another ultrasound and see how the sludge is doing. 

The vet believes that Chase will require sub q for the rest of her life. Hopefully at some point we can scale back but she will always require some. The vet didn't think it had anything to do with Chase's diet. 

The first vet said the Glucose levels were high due to stress from surgery. I will mention it to the new vet I saw today when I see her on Friday. I will also ask about acidifying the urine. 

I just don't think I can give the fluids. I have tried and by myself I can't hold Chase still long enough. I found a vet tech that is going to come to my home and help me starting tomorrow. She seems very nice and is only going to charge me $10 a day. I am very happy about that. 

When buying bottled water will it say low mineral instead of distilled? I am looking at the water I have been using and it says drinking water, sodium free. It has nurtition facts and next to everything is 0%. Is that good? 

I asked for EC titers from my last vet and she didn't do it. When I asked about the results she stated she has seen rabbits with EC before and she is sure Chase doesn't have that. I will ask the new vet to test. 

I tried to look in Chase's pupils but she is really mad right now and just turns her back to me. Once she calms down from being back from the vet I will try again. 

Thanks for the help Randy. I wrote the things down I need to ask the vet about on Friday. 

It was really hard to hear that Chase will have to deal with this the rest of her life. I was really hoping the vet would have an answer. Where we could solve the problem and move on. But it doesn't sound like that is the Chase. I bawled when she told me. I asked her what Chase's life would be like this. She is so upset everyday because of all of it. The vet said that would be something we would have to wait and see. When I asked her if Chase could ever go off the Sub Q she said there was a very small chance but that she doubted. She stated with Chase's history of stones she may need something more to flush out her bladder. It was nice to hear you say that I need to give the sub q and metacam and that my vet did that. I really hope she is a good vet. 

If the sludge has not gone down by Friday I believe they will flush the bladder for her. 

The also wanted me to geta urine sample everyday. I don't see that happening. I mean the rabbit barely goes to the bathroom anyway and you want me to try and suck it up in a syringe. She wants to see how the content of the urine changes over the week. I am going to try but I really don't see that happening. 

The vet seemed really knowledgable and really tried to help me. She actually tried to do the sub q fluids there all by herself to help give me ideas on doing it by myself. But then she said she wasn't sure she could do it by herself because Chase kept moving. She also gave me bigger needles then the first vet and told me to squeeze the bag. 

Thanks everyone for all your help and caring. This has been so hard and draining. I am really glad to have this vet tech's help. Atleast I won't be doing it alone now.


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## Maureen Las (Feb 2, 2009)

You are really doing a lot to help him so give yourself credit. 

I am sorry that you got such depressing news regarding his future; did she (vet)seem to think his problems could be genetic ????

I also think that it is fantastic that you are getting help with the subq "s also 

maybe the tech could also help you get urine sample . 

keep us posted Amy


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## ra7751 (Feb 2, 2009)

Umm...well, I agree they can't drink enough water to flush the renal system. Since this is such an extreme case....ask your vet to do the fluids IV or IO. I would use Sodium Chloride instead of LRS.

Do not use a drip infusion.....push it in. Ask your vet to use the tools I mentioned earlier....I can push hundreds of mls of fluids in a very short time usinga large syringe and a butterfly catheter.

As far as EC.....very few vets have actually seen a full blown case of EC. I can just about guarantee that every domestic rabbit in the western hemisphere will titer positive for EC. You are looking for antibody levels. The thing with EC is the crystals that come from shedding spores. They damage the kidneys and reduce their efficiency. If the kidneys don't work efficiently, they won't remove all the waste from the blood...the part that goes to the bladdergets thick and concentrated and gets deposited as sludge. I think I asked about her eyes. In some cases, the spores that damage the kidneys will also appear in the pupil of the eye....looks like snow. My very first EC case ( and the namesake of our rescue) had EC when we didn't know what EC was. She had urinary issues ongoing....and early on, she started getting snow in her eyes. Many presentations of EC are incorrectly diagnosed as UTI. No flaming intended to your vet(s) but they just don't see this EC often and the information they have available is usually outdated. EC is devastating on the renal system. And it seems that kidney problems and glucose levels might go hand in hand. I would really like a urnalysis on a virgin urine sample. The only way to do that is a cystocentesis. Would be very interesting if that could happen. 

Keep us posted.

Randy


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## Amy27 (Feb 2, 2009)

Thanks angieluv. I am really trying. I never would have imagined when I got this bunny that eats my house and everything else that I would love her so much. 

The vet didn't really say whether she thought it was genetic or not. She actually didn't really say what she thought it was from. She did say she didn't think it had anything to do with diet. We mostly discussed what to do about the current sludge and how to stop it from coming back. She was a great vet. I really trust her and that helps. She really went out of her way to try and make it as easy as possible for me to give the sub q fluids by myself. My other vet just had a vet tech show me. It could have been the fact that when they took Chase out of the room to get the ultrasound I bawled. I couldn't hold it in any longer. I tried not to cry in front of the vet but when she left I lost it. I can tell she has a good heart. 

Getting help with the sub q's has taken a huge worry off from me. This girl will never know what she has done for me and Chase. I think the same thing about you guys here. When I told her that Chase would have to get these for the rest of her life she said well then I guess we will become good friends. 

The thing with the urine sample is they want me to get her to go on a hard surface and then suck it up in a syringe. But when she only goes 1-2 times a day and I suppose to lock her in the bathroom all day everyday (they want a sample from everyday). They tried to push on her bladder to get some urine out and tried with a needle and couldn't get any. I may see if that vet tech knows how to suppress the bladder and maybe I can get her to try that on a hard surface and see if we can get anything. They want it to evaluate the USG. 

This reminded me of something else the vet said. She says when there is an incision in the bladder calcium will clinge to it so the more surgery Chase has the more likely she will be to get stones. 

Randy I was also thinking about the glucose. The vet was talking about other options, non that she wants to do now but if nothing works we could try. She says it is unproven but some have adovcated the use of diruetics. She stated that would be a last resort type thing though as it would cause other problems and Chase probably couldn't take it for long. Anyway she then said there isn't much to make a rabbit drink more and mentioned they couldn't get diabetes. I don't know much about diabetes and glucose but what would that mean if the glucose is high and rabbits can't get diabetes. What would be the cause? 

Also the sludge is diffusely distributed thoughout the bladder and not precipitation of sludge where it would be all at the bottom so she said that was good.


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## ra7751 (Feb 2, 2009)

Diuretics (Lasix) can be your friend. The thing is...lots has to go in. And it would be a "Hail Mary" treatment. Ask about the cystocentesis....it will get a virgin sample and not one off a counter. And there have been some documented cases of "diabetes" in a rabbit. It might be one of those things that it isn't technically diabetes....but close enough. I have found several alleged instances but I haven't found any clinical info on it. And then consider that a few years ago it was thought that degus can't be diabetic. We now know they can....and I have one that tested at 380 glucose.


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## tonyshuman (Feb 2, 2009)

First of all, HUGE hugs to you, Chase, and Little Bunny. I can't imagine how stressful and scary this is for you.

Here are the videos on bladder expression that have been going around lately:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq-5YErYcvA&NR=1[/ame]
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ekrHLc6xiI&mode=related&search=[/ame]

A way to get pure urine would be to use a litterbox with a grate in it and no litter--just the bare plastic underneath. It would smell, but would be a way to get it. 

With really expensive and difficult treatments like this, it might be worth getting a second opinion or going to a specialist like at the local vet school. Just an idea, especially if the vet is not receptive to the idea of doing an EC titer, which I agree is pretty important right now. Your vet does sound pretty knowledgeable, but it really can't hurt, especially if they want you to pay for daily urinalysises (sp?).

It is definitely not desirable to be having lots of bladder surgeries, whether or not calcium clings to the incision.

High glucose would indeed be indicative of diabetes or (I would think) improper liver function. I don't know whether or not it has been documented in rabbits before, but theoretically they could get it because they do have a pancreas and things could go wrong with it. The liver also plays a role in controlling glucose in the blood, so maybe high glucose levels could mean liver problems.

Also, could nursery water be considered low-mineral drinking water?


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## BethM (Feb 2, 2009)

Oh, Amy, I am sorry for the sad news you got today. You and Chase have been in my thoughts all day.

I am glad you found a better vet, and that's great about the vet tech coming to help you with the fluids. Maybe Chase will get used to the process, as time goes on, and calm down a little. (I hope.)
(One of the women in my HRS group has a bunny who needs SQ every day, too, though she's never told me why.)

Big hugs for you, and give some nose rubs to Chase and Little Bunny for me.


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## Amy27 (Feb 2, 2009)

Randy by cystocentesis is that where they try to go in the bladder to extract urine with a needle? If it is they tried on Thursday and I was told the urine was to thick. Today they tried and they said there wasn't enough urine in the bladder and it was to small. They are planning to try again Friday. I believe they said with diuretics it can cause a lot of bad side effects. She stated usually they use that as a last resort. I am think I should have written this down I maybe getting it confused with something else though. 

tonyshuman Chase did see a new vet today that only sees exotics. She also teaches exotics at a university and has written a ton of books and articles. I know it is getting confusing when I say vet to know what one I am talking about lol. The previous vet was the one that wouldn't do the ec titer. I am going to ask the new vet when I see her again on friday. I went to this new vet to get a second opinion and because she has so much more education and experience then my old vet. Hope that made sense. 

That is really funny you mention liver because her liver test came back high according to the vet. I am not sure exactly what one it is out of the ones I posted but she did say it was 8 points high. I wonder if those two are related. Wrote that down in my notebook to mention to the vet. 

yeah I am really wondering about the low mineral water. I am not sure if nursery water would but I have seen it in the stores so if anyone knows I coudl get that. 

The vet is hoping Chase will get use to the sub q's. She also said the skin and sub q will get use to having fluid in there and will make room easier and it shouldn't be as uncomfortable for Chase. She said right now it is stretching and that could make it more uncomfortable. She sat with me and watched Chase after they gave the sub q's and he did his usual freak out and she said he was mad, not in pain. But I question whether she tells me that to make me feel better. 

Thanks to the people who mentioned Little Bunny. She has kind of been pushed to the side. Plus she still misses Chase. I really need to work on getting them back together because I think they would both do better with that comfort. I also think Chase drank more when she was around the Little Bunny. Chase is mad at me all the time and doesn't want comfort from me and so I think that will help. mmm that maybe another thing the vet tech could help me with. 

If you are interested or have the time this is the new vets credentials and experience/background. Do you think it is a good background? Her name is Barbara Oglesbee, DVM, Diplomate ABVP. This website tells more about her background. http://www.cvrec.org/avianexotics.htm

This is one of the books she wrote http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-0781793998.html


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## NorthernAutumn (Feb 2, 2009)

Hey Amy!
Glad to read that you've got a true bunny savvy vet this time (or at least someone interested in trying hard for you guys)
Hope Chase feels a bit better soon, poor bun... 
Sounds like things are moving in the right direction....

Autumn


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## Amy27 (Feb 2, 2009)

Thanks NorthernAutumn. I also wanted to thank you for bringing to my attention that Chase may not want all these new foods and drinks because she is under so much stress. I was just really going crazy trying every new thing I could think of and you saying that really made me stop and think. I was so busying thinking about what else could I try. I need to give her a break of trying to make her eat this and drink that. She has had a rough enough time and it has only been 2 weeks since she had surgery. I appreciate you saying that or I might not have realized. I am going to back off, it is easier now knowing she will get some fluids from the sub q. Though I did notice tonight a few small pieces of pineapple were missing. So I think she did eat a few.


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 2, 2009)

ray: Come on baby girl!


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## NorthernAutumn (Feb 2, 2009)

Hey, a few bits of pineapple is better than none! From what I've read, fresh pineapple has at least 25-35mg ascorbic acid per 100g... alternative to oranges anyway (she might really like those too!)
I think bunnies and cats are pretty similar... none of mine particularly like any sort of upheaval and change. It's probably been a wild few weeks for all of you.
I'm delighted that you are managing the sub-Qs so well 
hmmm... wonder if Little Bunny wants some pineapple?:biggrin2:
Please, give her extra pats for all of us

Autumn


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## Maureen Las (Feb 2, 2009)

She sounds outstanding. I bought the Wiley -Blackwell book on Internal medicne for rabbits. It is a book written for veterinarians. All vets have their own particular manner of doing things butI would guess that Randy and your new vet would be on the same page. 

Wish I could get a vet that qualified ...

Chase is in good hands....

and I would ask the vet tech to assist you with things that come up; if she's nice she won't mind.


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## tonyshuman (Feb 3, 2009)

Oh, sorry I was confused. This new vet does sound really good. 

I mention liver because there's an interplay between the pancreas and the liver to control the level of sugar in the blood. In addition, it stores quite a bit of glucose for later use. I also read that the kidney can make glucose. The vet should know more about this.

For future reference, here are typical values for a blood panel in a rabbit:
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Hematology/blood_chemistry.htm
http://books.google.com/books?id=xT...X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result#PPT128,M1

After looking a bit at articles and stuff (should be working of course), it is possible but rare for a rabbit to have diabetes. You need more than one high blood glucose level to diagnose it. Also, with urinary tract problems, there may be another reason for the high glucose. Stress is commonly implicated as a cause of high glucose levels, but I think Chase's were too high for just stress.

HUGE hugs to you all~~


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## Amy27 (Feb 3, 2009)

The vet tech just left and the sub q fluids went great. All I did was hold Chase and it was over in about 5 minutes. She is so sweet. She said anytime I need anything to call her even if it is something with my cats. She is actually starting vet school next year. I feel so much better about things. 

angieluv thanks for looking at the vet's site. I don't know much about what to look for in a rabbit vet and it makes me feel better that you think she sounds great. 

tonyshuman, thanks for explaining all that to me. Don't worry about being confused, I am confused myself with everything that is going on. I am going to mention the glucose levels to the vet. I agree it seems pretty high for stress though Chase does get really scared. I am off to look at the sites you posted. Thanks for all your help.


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## myheart (Feb 3, 2009)

Hi Amy, Just checking in on Chase and what is going on with treatments. I didn't want you to think I was ignoring your new thread...

Still sending prayers and hugs your way to ease your frustrations and Chase's pain.

myheart


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## Maureen Las (Feb 3, 2009)

I'm glad that it went well and the tech is nice. 
It's easier if there are are 2 people 
Keep us posted


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## naturestee (Feb 3, 2009)

That's fantastic that you have someone you can trust to do the fluids. Maybe this will encourage her to study rabbits will in vet school...:biggrin2:


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## Amy27 (Feb 5, 2009)

Tomorrow is the big day. I go back to see if the sub q fluids have helped Chase at all. I am so excited because he got the max amount everyday that the vet wanted. I feel like things have to better. I have to get good news tomorrow. I just will becauseI have done what the vet asked. And then I try to bring myself to realize it may not happen, things may not be better. I don't want to set myself up to be disappointed. But I really don't want to think about the bad either. The appointment can not come soon enough. 

If you guys can just pray or think or whatever it is you prefer to do that things have gotten better. That some of the calcium has moved out of the bladder. I don't know what I will do if I get more bad news. And to top it off I am taking my other bun who had sludge in November to be checked tomorrow with Chase. 

I will post tomorrow when I get back.


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## naturestee (Feb 5, 2009)

Best of luck! I'll keep my fingers crossed for you and Chase.

I saw you mention that Chase is peeing a lot now that she's getting sub-q fluids regularly. Hopefully she's been peeing out some of the sludge with it!


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## BethM (Feb 5, 2009)

I'm glad the sub-q is going well. 

I'll be keeping you and both bunnies in my thought. Good luck at the appointment!


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## Maureen Las (Feb 5, 2009)

I really hope that the subqutaneous fluids have helped but if not it may take longer than this for anything to change so don't get too discouraged as he has just started treatment.

But I wish you the best of luck tomorrow and please don't be really disapointed if values don't change really quickly 

I'll be thinking of both of you 
"hugs"

Maureen


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## NorthernAutumn (Feb 5, 2009)

My very best wishes sent your way:hug2:
Keep going... Even if there is no marked improvement, that doesn't mean that you aren't going in the right direction! Just means that it's baby steps!


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## tonyshuman (Feb 6, 2009)

I read your comment on Luna's post about how Chase is starting to be less upset about the fluids. You are doing such a good job with him. Like the others said, even if there's no change in the blood tests, it can be a slow process and you're going in the right direction. Huge hugs and positive healing thoughts to you and your crew~~


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## Amy27 (Feb 7, 2009)

Thanks for all the thougths. Chase's appointment went really well yesterday. The goal was for her urine SG to be between 1014-1020. It was 1017. They did an x-ray and said her bladder looks so much better. The vet said she is actually optimistic now. I was happy to hear that but I didn't realize she wasn't on Monday. 

One thing they did find on the x-ray was that Chase's muscle either the stitch didn't hold or wasn't stitch properly and he has a gap in her muscle. Before the vet told me she called Chase's old vet who did the surgery and the old vet said she would do surgery for free to fix it. I decided not to go through with the surgery for now. The vet said at this point nothing inside is coming through the muscle. She said it could form scar tissue over the hole and be fine. I couldn't put her through surgery for the third time in 3 months. So I will just wait to see what happens. 

Chase will get 150 ml every other day now and still get .5ml of metacam twice a day until Friday when she goes back and will be checked again. 

The Little Bunny had such a small amount of sludge the vet isn't worried about it and said it would be fine to just have it checked at her yearly appointment. But to watch her for signs if it does get worse. So that was great. 

I am so thankful to have gotten good news. The sub q's are helping and I owe so much to this vet tech. 

I did talk to the vet about the things that were mentioned here. She didn't think acidifying the urine would be a good thing at this point. She also thinks the glucose was high because of stress and she wasn't concerned about it since diabetes isn't a real risk. She also did not feel doing an EC titer would show anything. 

Thanks everyone.


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## tonyshuman (Feb 8, 2009)

Yay for progress!! I personally would still be concerned about the root cause of the sludge, which could be EC, or one of any other things. An EC titer isn't cheap, but early treatment is important if he has it.


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## Maureen Las (Feb 8, 2009)

Yeh!! I'm glad that it is improving... but I agree with Claire that thesource of the bladder issueshasn't really been identified.


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## Amy27 (Feb 8, 2009)

I believe the vet thinks the root cause is Chase's lack of water intake to flush the bladder though she isn't sure. All other tests came back negative.

I am kind of confused about EC. I have had 2 vets that have told me there was no reason to test for it. I am going to do some more research on it. Does EC cause bladder issues? Maybe if I could find something to show the vet that it could be EC and at least would be worth testing for she would do it. If anyone has any good links about EC and bladder stones/issues I would love to have them. I will print them out and take them with me on Friday to Chase's next appointment. EC is really the only test that I know of that has not been run already. I am not to concerned with the cost as long as it isn't like $1000. I have already spent about $3000 in the last 3 months. 

Thanks everyone. 


ETA: I am not sure if I will repeat this correctly but the vet also said in regard to testing for EC it doesn't tell if the rabbit is actually having symptoms of it just what there levels are which could be from exposure from along time ago and have nothing to do with the current situation. I am sure I am not saying it exactly as she said it but it was something along those lines. I then asked if testing several times to see if the levels goes up or stays the same (remember reading that on here) she said it still wouldn't really tell anything.


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## Maureen Las (Feb 9, 2009)

I really cannot find an article specific to EC and kidney/bladder issues. The reason that I believe thatRandy brought it up as a concern is that if the rabbit has active EC the body of the rabbit responds to the infection by the creation of antibodies. Lesions called granulomas develop;.granulomasare localized areas of inflammation where the infection is being fought and are most common in the brain, kidneys, heart,and spinal cord. It is the presence of the granulomas that usually cause the symptoms of the illness.

if Chase had EC it might be easier to explain why he is having so many bladder/kidney issues as the infection may have localized in his kidneys.

Since you have an exellent vet andChase is improving their isn't a need to push at your DR to get EC titers (as a baseline) if the vet doesn't want to

it is just gathering more info. 

the most important thing is that Chase is improving


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## myheart (Feb 9, 2009)

I amso happy for you and Chase!!! Sounds like all of your TLC is paying off for her improved health. Gives me a tiny glimmer of hope for my little girl, even though it's her kidneys and not her bladder.

Thanks for the pep-talk on Luna's thread. It was consoling to hear that even a tech has a bit of trouble from time to time. Luna just had me so riled up from her getting such a wild look in her eyes like she needed to get out right then and there. I don't think there would have been much I could have done to have kept her contained and quiet. I was so afraid that the needle would cause damage to her when she struggled, that it just seemed best to let her go. How do you tell them it is for their own good...?

myheart


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## tonyshuman (Feb 9, 2009)

EC can be a difficult disease to diagnose. Many vets learned that the first sign of EC is head tilt, which is not true. It is a parasite that enters through the GI tract. An active infection starts in the kidneys, and replicates itself there, which can cause problems with the urinary tract as the rabbit is shedding EC spores in its urine. It can also affect hind leg mobility in this stage of the disease. Eventually it works its way to the brainstem, where it causes head tilt, or "wry neck," which used to be what EC was called. At this point, the disease is much harder to treat as it is difficult to get many drugs into the brain to kill the parasite.

This article is very good but a bit long: http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-2/e-cuniculi.html 

An EC titer will most likely be positive for almost any bunny, and beyond being positive it is difficult to tell whether or not it is indicative of an active case. It is controversial as to whether a high titer for EC means that there is an active case or not, as discussed in the article mentioned (and pretty much any article I've seen). This is probably what your vet knows. I have read, however, that Randy has had success treating several rabbits with EC, and he believes in checking the EC titer to determine the progress of the disease (PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong--don't want to put words in anyone's mouth).

I think the real concern here is that we don't know what's causing the sludge because it doesn't appear to be dietary, and I don't think a bacterial infection is suspected for Chase (yes or no?). I don't think it's very common for a rabbit to have sludge for the rest of their life--sludge means some part of the urinary tract isn't working correctly and that needs to be addressed. That's why we have been reccomending an EC titer.

Big HUGS and healing wishes~~


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## Amy27 (Feb 9, 2009)

angieluv, Thanks for the information. I don't think Chase was tested for a kidney infection. They checked for kidney disease and bladder disease and infection. If a rabbit has EC and it is affecting the kidneys and/or bladder would kidney disease or bladder disease come back positive on lab results? Or would you have to actually check the kidney's for infection? Maybe I can ask the vet about checking for a kidney infection. That is one test that I don't believe that has been done yet. I hope my questions made sense. 

myheart, it is so hard. You can't tell them it is good for them. I know I have tried lol. I have tried to tell Chase just sit for 5 mintues and it will be over instead of all this repoking you. I think I have just come to realize there are going to be good days where she will get all her fluids and bad days where she won't. I just hope for more good days then bad days. Keep up the good work. You are doing such a good job with Luna. I really hope this helps her. 

tonyshuman, thanks for the article. Can you read the quesitons I posted for angieluv and let me know what you think also since you mentioned the kidney infections. I just wonder if all the lab tests for kidney disease came back normal if that would or could be the case. 

I agree that it is concerning that they don't know the root cause. No one has mentioned that a bacterial infection is suspected. I would hope that if that was the problem it would have shown up on the lab results. Is that correct or is there another test that should be done? I don't think it is in this thread but Chase had a blood draw, urinalysis, and a bladder biopsy done. Nothing showed signs of infection. 

Thanks everyone for all your help. Sorry for all my questions. I just don't understand a lot of it and want to make sure that if there is another test that should be done that I do get the vet to do them. I would really like to find the root cause so Chase doesn't have to go through this the rest of her life.


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## Amy27 (Feb 9, 2009)

I was wondering if you could hold a rabbits scruff to get them to hold still? I don't mean pick them up by the scruff. The reason I ask is because Chase has been bad the past few days about getting her sub q fluids. The vet tech asked me about holding her by her scuff today and I wasn't sure. I know I have read it is painful to pick them up by it. She said that with cats and ferrets they will hold onto their scruff and it just makes them hold still. I wanted to check to see if that would be ok for a rabbit before doing it. Any other ideas to get her to hold still are appreciated. We have tried wrapping her up in a towel and moving places but she still moves and whines and will try to eat the towel if she can. Thanks


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## naturestee (Feb 9, 2009)

I would first try getting a carrier with a door in the top. Or another small carrier/cage type- Myheart is using a small travel crate that helped with Luna today. I would think it would be difficult or more painful to put the needle in while she's scruffed.

Scruffing is ok if it's done properly- usually the ears are also held but no weight put on them, and the second hand fully supporting their rear. I don't know if it would settle Chase down at all. It would just make mine angry.


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## myheart (Feb 10, 2009)

I saw your post last night, sorry I didn't respond sooner, but the words about scruffing wouldn't come to me at the time.

Your vet tech friend suggested scruffing because it is what she is comfortable with. They are taught the proper way to do it to protect themselves when small critters are not cooperating. I will say from personal experience that I am comfortable trimming toe nails because I have done it a bazillion times and am not fazed when the animal cries or tries to get away.

I personally would not be comfortable scruffing because I would never handle an animal that way. Besides, there are so many stories of rabbits that flinch when ever a hand reaches toward them. Wonder why....? Poor thing could have been hit or scruffed too many times, aside from not being handled in the first place.

As you know, I am having similar troubles with Luna. I have chosen to think like a bunner. When are they the most secure? When they are in a tunnel, a hole, a space that is just big enough for their body. Have you ever seen show or meat cages for rabbits? They are big, flat cages that have compartments that are just big enough for one rabbit per compartment, but cage could hold ten rabbits total. The first time I saw one, I thought how cruel for them to travel that way. But now I understand that the cage actually keeps them calm because it takes away any opportunity to flee (fight or flight).

I will pm pics of what I have set up for Luna. Day two and it has worked again. I agree with the top-load kennel, but find one that is so small that Chase has no option but to sit still. I know there will still be wiggle room for her because they really don't make kennels that small. Just think shoe-box size....

Do what you are comfortable with and what Chase is comfortable with. Is Chase bonded? I have been leaving Patch and Zappa in the room with us to provide Luna support. They are there for her the moment she is left out of the cage to comfort her after her ordeal.

Hope some of this helps. Pics will be sent later this evening for you. 

myheart


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## Amy27 (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks for the replies. I did stop at the pet store and walmart tonight and picked up a carrier that opens from the top. I really don't think it is small enough but it is the smallest they had. I am going to try it and if it is to big I will return it and look around for a smaller one. 

Chase use to be bonded before her surgery but they unbonded and we had some fights so I decided that for now we have enough going on and will try to rebond them at another time. It is sad because both bunnies are lonely and Chase really wants to be with the other bunny but the other bunny won't have it. 

I would love to see pictures of what you are using so if this doesn't work when I go out looking I will have a better idea.

Thanks again


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## naturestee (Feb 10, 2009)

Maybe you could stuff some towels or something in there to reduce the space? I hope this works for you!


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## Amy27 (Feb 10, 2009)

naturestee, thanks thats a great idea I will try that.


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## myheart (Feb 10, 2009)

I have just sent the pm with pics of Luna's set-up for her sub-q fluids. Let me know if you do not receive it....

myheart


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## Amy27 (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks myheart I received it and sent ya a message back. I really appreciate you taking the time to send those to me.


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 10, 2009)

We know someone who's bunny was scruffed at the 4H meeting and they broke its back. 

I can't do it.......not even with cats but Lexi does with Diesel some...... :nerves1


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## Amy27 (Feb 10, 2009)

OMG that is awful. When we were thinking about doing it with Chase we were going to keep her feet on the ground. We were hoping that with just holding that area it would make her still. But I think the smaller carrier will work better and be much safer. I wouldn't want to risk hurting her. The poor thing has been through enough. I hope that bunny that had her back broken is ok.


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## Amy27 (Feb 11, 2009)

Chase goes back to the vet tomorrow for another check up. One thing I was wondering about is the Metacam she has basically been on since her surgery 3 weeks ago. I know long term use of metacam can be dangerous. I tried to look around on the internet to get more information about it but couldn't find anything. I want to make sure I know what I am talking abot tomorrow and make a good decision on whether she should stay on it or not. If anyone could give me some information on it I would appreciate it. I believe I read on here somewhere it can cause kidney disease but I don't know if that is right and I can't find the thread. I also am not sure what is considered long term use. Is 3 weeks long term? 

Thanks


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## naturestee (Feb 11, 2009)

I'm not sure what is considered long term use either. But it should be safer because of the sub-q fluids, which help to keep the kidneys flushed. Otherwise yes, it can sometimes do some kidney damage. If I remember right, Luna was put on Metacam (and Tramadol) but the vet said it should be alright because of the fluids.

Does Chase still need pain meds? I'd ask the vet and see about takingher off them and seeing how she does.

Bo- that's awful. It shouldn't happen if the rabbit is handled properly and supported under the rear, but some people just don't think of that. Some of the techs at the shelter scruff, but more often with cats especially if they're strays. Again though, they're properly trained.


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## Amy27 (Feb 11, 2009)

Thanks naturestee for teh information. I didn't think about the fluids helping. Chase is getting the Metacam for inflammation she has in her bladder. Sorry should have mentioned that in my post.


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## naturestee (Feb 11, 2009)

Ah, yeah she might still need it then. Luna is getting it for inflammation in her kidneys.


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## Amy27 (Feb 12, 2009)

Well we are back from the vet. On the x-ray Chase's bladder looked the same, same amount of sludge. They tried to get a urine sample but there really wasn't any in her bladder. 

She will go back to getting 150ml of sub q's everyday for 2 weeks and will also be getting Lasix 12.5mg twice a day. The vet is hoping the Lasix will get her drinking more but if not atleast she has the sub q's to keep her hydrated. Does anyone know anything about Lasix? That is one drug I have never heard about on here before. I am alittle nervous about giving it to her. The vet said they are not sure about long term use of Lasix because they mainly use it on rabbits with heart failure so they pass away before they know if there would have been any problems if the rabbit used the drug long term. She thinks short term it should be fine. 

Chase is so tired of being pricked and poked. I really feel bad for her. I don't know how much more I can do this. I am really trying but it is wearing me down. Not including how much this is costing me. I just want things to go back the way they were 3 months ago, before Chase even got her first stone. 

Thanks for being here for me.


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## myheart (Feb 12, 2009)

I don't know much about Lasix.... My Maggie had to have Lasix and sub-q fluids to help her get over pneumonia. The sub-q adds fluids, but the Lasix takes it out...at least that is how it was explained to me back then. I'm sure Naturestee will chime in soon on that one.

I am starting to feel the same way as you do Amy. Please know how much my heart aches for you and Chase. I wish for all the same things also... to go back in time when it was just veggies and cuddles. It was just the thing of knowing they were happy, healthy, and cuddling with their bond-mates. It was so much easier not having to worry about time of day for meds or fluids, vet checks, and diets.

Don't break yet... Chase needs you to be strong for her.

myheart


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## Maureen Las (Feb 12, 2009)

Lasix is a medication that I have given (as a human RN) to patients many times but never to a rabbit. It is a diuretic that blocks the absorption of sodium and fluid in the kidney tubules which causes a much greater urine output. Because of the greater urine output electrolytes can be lost so the use needs to be monitored.
You need to give the sq fluids regularly in order toreplace the electrolytes lost. 

Such a shame that you are going through so much


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## BethM (Feb 12, 2009)

:hug2:


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## Amy27 (Feb 12, 2009)

Thanks myheart, I hope we both get some good news sometime soon. We can only take so much. I wish I would have cherished those days with cuddles and veggies more, I may never get them back. Thanks for saying Chase needs me to be strong. I need to keep telling myself that. 

angieluv thanks for replying. I hope the sub q's we are giving will be enough. I am hoping that when we return in 2 weeks that they will take Chase off the Lasix, I think 2 weeks is enough time. I don't want her to get worse from the meds they are giving her. 

What can I watch for to make sure the Lasix isn't effecting her with electrolytes and dehydration. How do you know if a bunny is dehydrated? 


Thanks for the hug Beth, I really appreciate it.


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 12, 2009)

I'm so sorry. I hoped she would look better


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## naturestee (Feb 12, 2009)

I've heard of Lasix being given to rabbits a number of times, mainly for heart problems causing a build-up of fluid.

You can check for dehydration by lightly pinching the skin like you would to give sub-q fluids. Release it, and if it quickly goes back to it's normal shape then the rabbit should be hydrated enough. It shouldn't be too much of a worry with the fluids Chase is already getting.

:hug:


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## krsbunny (Feb 12, 2009)

Lasix was one of the meds Murray was on toward the end of his battle with cardiomyopathy. I don't recall how long he was on it nor the dose... but it was *not *one of the meds he had a bad reaction to (and there were some).I would not be afraid to give it again if a trusted veterinarian recommended it.

I have just recently started hearing aboutLasix being usedfor treatment of sludge... it is not something I would personally jump into imediately for sludge or use in minor cases ... but you are certainly notjumping in immediately, nor is your case minor.If I were in your position, I would definitely give it a try.

I so totally understand what you are saying about Chase being poked and prodded. Trust that you know her best and know whether she wants to continue treatment. In 1997, when Smokey was diagnosed with cancer, we took heroic measures and spent tons of money because it was clear that fighting was what he wanted to do. Thisincludedtreatments that I would probably decline for myself.When we were trying to decide whether to try a second ($250/treatment) chemo drug, I asked my vet "What would you do if he were your bunny?" I will never forget her answer: "If he were my bunny, I would have to stop because I would be out of money." At that point, we were able to keep trying, but with that statement Dr. Bradley taught me that it was OK to say "that is something I cannot afford." My life has changed since then, and I know that next time Imay have to say that... and it will be OK.

Almost exactly ten years later, Dante made it equally clear that he would rather die than continue aggressive treatment for an ear abscess. Again, I had to let go of what I thought "should" be done and listen to what he wanted. 

Sit with Chase, ask her what she wants, and trust what you hear. Feel free to PM me any time.

Hugs to you and Chase.

Kathy Smith


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## NorthernAutumn (Feb 12, 2009)

I'm sorry to hear that you and Chase are struggling right now... I don't have any brilliant ideas... It's out of my scope. Was just going to mention the holistic option as a last-ditch effort that's non-invasive. 
ray: Thoughts of peace for Chase, Little Bunny, and you, Amy.ray:


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## Amy27 (Feb 12, 2009)

Bo B Bunny, Thanks I will just have to hold out hope that the next appointment will be better. 

Thanks naturestee, I didn't realize you could check with rabbits the same way you can with humans. I don't know why this med is freaking me out. But I will check Chase everyday to make sure she isn't dehydrated. I really hope the fluids help. I think it is just the idea of giving it to a rabbit who doesn't drink. Crossing my fingers though that this gets her back into the habit of drinking. 

Kathy, your post made me feel so much better. Knowing that you used the med and didn't have any problems really helps me feel better about it. 

I really appreciate you sharing your story about your two buns. Chase gets really upset when she has to go to the vet, get her meds and her sub q's but she perks right back up as soon as it is over. She runs from me a lot because she is afraid I am going to poke her or shove something in her mouth but the rest of the time she is running around playing. After having both of those stones I imagine she feels pretty good. I think that is my answer. She is still happy most of the time and when she isn't she perks up as soon as the bad thing is over. She is still loving life. I just hope I can give her the chance to live a full life that she deserves.


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## Amy27 (Feb 12, 2009)

NorthernAutumn you posted while I was typing. I still haven't thrown out the idea of holistics. I am just not sure if I am ready to give up on this vets ideas. I am afraid if I went to a holistic place I would have to try those suggestions 100% and would like to wait until this vet is out of ideas. I just really hope her ideas work. I guess so far I should feel lucky a stone isn't in there yet. I really appreciate your thoughts. 

Thanks to who ever updated my thread title.


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## NorthernAutumn (Feb 12, 2009)

By _no means_ would I suggest switching right now... I was just saying that as the last-ditch attempt when all the vet options are exhausted. 

Glad to read that Chase is still bopping around when she's not getting her meds. At least she's having some fun... methinks she needs something naughty to shred, just for fun?


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## krsbunny (Feb 12, 2009)

Oh, DUH! I can't believe I didn't think about the holistic approach.

Magnesium comes highly recommended by a friend of mine for helping with sludge. Raw pumpkin seeds are high in magnesium and if Chase needs more magnesium he may eat them willingly as a treat!

Also, from my research, the calcium/phosphorus ratio is more important in diet than the actual level of calcium. Orchard grass hay, according to some sources, actually has more phosphorus than calcium, so you might consider offering that along with timothy. Again, I think Chase will gravitate toward orchard grass hay if that is what is needed.

Parsley and dandelion are natural diuretics. Hydrangea root, gravel root,
marshmallow, and uva ursi are also good herbs for the urinary tract.

Kathy


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## naturestee (Feb 12, 2009)

Amy, if you can find a holistic vet in your area, they should be able to work with your current vet. It's pretty common to combine traditional meds with herbal remedies as long as drug interactions are checked before adding anything. Kathy knows a lot more about this than I do.

There's some info in our Library, including links to lists of trained holistic/alternative treatment vets. You might also be able to bring in info to your vet and ask her opinion on whether they'd interact with her medicine or what the proper dose should be.

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=11898&forum_id=10

I wonder if you could set a certain time each day to be for loving on Chase. Pet her, give her a treat, maybe learn some basic massage techniques and use them to bond with her. If it's the same time each day, she'lllearn that she doesn't have to fear being given meds at that time and can relax more.

Edit: If you are giving the meds orally and she really hates it, you could try hiding it in a food that she likes. I use canned pumpkin to hide meds (usually Benebac or simethicone)for Fey. Luckily her husbun Oberon hates pumpkin, so there's no worry of him stealing her stuff. After Dora's spay, I hid her Metacam in a bit of Benebac because she loves that so much. Mushed banana or no-sugar-added applesauce are other possibilities.


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## NorthernAutumn (Feb 12, 2009)

*Hi Kathy; 
We were kicking the idea of holistics around on another one of Chase's threads... I found a list of holistic vets...
Here's the other thread with all of our input in it... maybe there's something in there that you would notice as standing out?

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=43104&forum_id=16

I was also wondering about acupuncture... funny, the number of things that acupuncture can clear up...

(sorry about the bold font... my keyboard is malfunctioning)
Autumn 
*


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## krsbunny (Feb 12, 2009)

Re: the holistic approach. IMO, this doesn't have to be an either/or decision. The answer that works best is so often "both/and." 

Dr. Allan is very supportive of my interest in offeringa few herbs along with drugs ... and in some mild cases we try just herbs. She does, however, urge caution on the subject of how many new things we introduce at a time (if we're doing many drugs, we stick to only one or two herbs). 

I would *offer*a fewraw pumpkin seeds and uva ursi leaves... and perhaps some dandelion leaves ... and see about orchard grass hay. Let Chase pick and choose what she needs.

Oh... and I would definitely consider acupuncture if it is available in your area and you can afford it!

Kathy


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## Amy27 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thanks guys. You are giving me a new perspective to the idea of using the current vet and a holistic one. There are two in my area. I will call them and see what they have to say. I know the one offers accupuncture according to their website. 

Chase does get some orchard grass now. I usually mix it in with the timothy. I will have to try and put them separate in her cage and see if she favors one over the other. 

I think Chase would love the pumpkin seeds, she loves to eat. Can you buy raw pumpkin seeds or would I need to buy the pumpkin and take them out? Would the kind of pumpkin I would use to cook be the correct kind to get the seeds? Chase does get a little bit of parsley and use to get some dandelion leaves but I cut a lot of it out because of the higher calcium levels. I will try to get her to eat more. She is easy going about her greens and I think she would actually enjoy more of the variety she use to get. Uva Ursi leaves what is that? Is that something you can buy at the grocery store? 

I really don't know a lot about holistics I will have to research accupunture. I am not really sure what it does for you. 

naturestee thanks for giving that link to the library. I don't think I have ever seen that thread before. Chase is getting the Lasix in pill form so I am able to hide that. The metacam she seemed to know the smell a mile away. I agreed that stuff was gross. Hopefully now that her meds are going to be hiden in a treat it will make things a little calmer for her. 

That is a good idea about finding a time to just give her some cuddles and make sure I do it at the same time everyday. 

You guys gave me lots of great information. I am off to do some reading now on the links and research accupuncture. 

I am also going to copy some of the threads from here and fax them to her current vet to let her know what I am looking into. I am open to paying for accupuncture if it may help. 

Thanks everyone.


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## krsbunny (Feb 13, 2009)

Another thing I did with Murray when he had sludge was buy some 100% cranberry juice concentrate and syringed about 2 cc daily. 

This and all of theother herbal/mineral suggestions I made earlier should be discussed with your vet before implementing, as she may know a reason one or more of the ideas is not a good one.

One thing I can suggest thatis completely safe is something I call "energy shifting" ... someone brought up something similar on the previous thread when they said, "Only positive thoughts." I know from experience that is just not possible in a situation like yours... or mine... or probably anyone's! But when youstart worrying orthinking about what might go wrong, try this process:


Notice what you are thinking.If it is worry or you are focusing on the outcome you fear, don't beat yourself up and allow the thought to finish.(My own process is, at this point I say "OK.")
Take a deep breath (or two or three).
Now focus your energy thinking about the outcome you desire.Inthis case, try to visualize the sludge dissolving.
Finally (and I find this is really important) focus on something you have to be grateful for (having Chase in your life, for the lessons she has taught you) and express that gratitude in whatever way is comfortable for you spiritually.
If you feel an "energy shift", direct some of that good energy toward Chase... My bunnies respond really well to this.

Kathy


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## krsbunny (Feb 13, 2009)

You should be able to find raw pumpkin seeds(sometimes called pepitas)at an organic grocery store (here it is Wild Oats). Some of my guys like them, others give me that "what were you thinking?" look, still others gobble them some days and turn their nose up at them others. 

If the store you find raw pumpkin seeds sells "bulk herbs", you may be able to get Uva Ursi there. We have two Wild Oats stores here ... one has them, one doesn't... I buy lots of my herbs online from http://www.oldtimeherbs.com/... I buy "cut" roots and leaves rather than than powdered and let my guys choose what they need. My original holistic vet (Dr. Randy Kidd, who has written books and articles on the subject) told me that animals will usually willingly eat what their bodies need ... and it is especially easy with herbivores <gr>.

Kathy


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## tonyshuman (Feb 13, 2009)

You can try "tenting" the skin and seeing how quickly it goes back to normal. This is done with all types of animals to check for dehydration, and I think on bunnies you do it behind the ears on the neck--unless that's where you do the sub-q.


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## Maureen Las (Feb 13, 2009)

This is a lot of great info !!

Thanks so much Kathy
I sure hope that a dual approach helps Chase

I would have one concern that is based on my discussing herbs and alternative meds with my western physician 
I take flax seed oil, magnesium, malic acid for fibromyalgia which I have read alot on myself. 

When I try to talk with my western MD he tends to write down what I take and I know that he has no clue what I'm talking about. He doesn'thave any knowledge of alternative meds ; I can tell. ..and I think that he thinks it's all harmless which it isn't 

I would be concerned that many western trained vets would have no idea what is safe to use with what. 
which places a lot of responsibility on the person to do homework themselves.


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## Amy27 (Feb 16, 2009)

Kathy thanks for all your suggestions. I try to be positive and happy around Chase, I try not to let her see me stressed out. Though a few times at the vet I have been more emotional then I would have liked to have been. I know Chase is very intune with my emotions. If I cry or hell she will thump at me. I try really hard now that I know this to never show emotions around her, like let her hear me cry or talk in a loud tone. I have never seen an animal react to emotions like she does. So your positive thoughts that you talked about might really help Chase. 

I tried separating the orchard grass and timothy grass and she seems to prefer the timothy. I think part of it might be the way oxbow packages their orchard hay. It is more in circles then straight and Chase seems to like the straightness of hay. I am going to try Kaytee Orchard hay and see if she likes that better. 

tonyshuman, thanks for the information. I do give Chase the sub q's behind her ears in the neck. I am trying to wait until the fluid absorbs and then check her since the neck is the easiest area to check. 

angieluv I think you brought up a great point. That is something I worry about also. I don't think I am knowledgable enough to know either. I can try and resource as much as possible but there is only so much out there. 

I think what I am going to do is take the information about pumpkins seeds and Uva Ursi to the vet on the 27th and will talk to her about that and the accupuncture along with seeing a holistic vet. One thing I am worried about is if one vet is trying 2 or 3 things and the holistic vet is trying 2 or 3 things I won't know what is working and what isn't. I am not sure what the vet will want to try after the duiretics and sub q's so I think the appointment on the 27th would be a good time to talk about it. But I think starting something else before then would make it hard to pin point what is and is not working. I do know the duiretics are not making Chase drink. She hasn't drank anything in about 4-5 days. Which is normal for her. 

I am curious what your point of view is in trying several different things from 2 vets at the same side and trying to pin point what is or is not working. Do you think it is best to wait until the regular vet has had her chance to try what she thinks will work? 

Thanks for all your help.


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## Maureen Las (Feb 16, 2009)

Let's wait for kathy to respond on this question


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## krsbunny (Feb 16, 2009)

Sorry.... I meant to respond to the comment about traditional medical people (human and veterinary) not knowing about the interactions between drugs and herbs. That is a *very* valid concern and I failed to mention originally that Dr. Allan pretty much leaves it in my court to research interactions between drugs and herbs. 

The best optionmight be if your traditional vet is open to consulting back and forth witha holistic veterinarian. If youhave confidence in your own intuition, you may be able to diffuse any "ego conflict" that might arise about who had the final say in decisions (that should be you and Chase). 

I agree that your next appointment is a good time to talk to the vet about trying a couple of herbal things next ... either in addition to what is being done now or as a replacement (e.g. if Lasix is being discontinued).

Regarding the reaction to the Orchard Grass hay -- if Chase doesn't go for it then it is probably not the right thing for him. Try to relax, but don't stress about it <gr>. Yeah, easier said than done. "Go with the flow,"and enjoy your time together, whether measured in days, weeks, months, or years.

Kathy


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## Amy27 (Feb 16, 2009)

Thanks for responding. I will talk to the vet and I really hope she is open to a holistic vet. She seems very knowledgable which is a good thing but I have found that a lot of things I have suggested she has shot down. I hope she doesn't do it with the holistic vet. If she does I will have to decide what is best. She is very caring and I know last time she felt awful that she couldn't give me good news. I will try to use that in my favor to talk to her about other options. I know she wants what is best for Chase. I really wouldn't feel comfortable though having those types of medical decisions in my court. I just don't know enough and would never want to risk her life. How did you do it with your vet Kathy? 

I am not to concerned with the orchard grass. I think if she eats it great if not then she still has her timothy hay to eat. I have learned over the last few weeks that I don't have control over what she eats and drinks. Though that drives me crazy because if she would only drink. But I have learned to let it go because if she isn't going to do it she just isn't going to do it. And it won't do either one of us good to try and force her. She has enough stuff being forced on her already. 

With all this stuff she has been through and all the meds and fluids she is getting, it makes her sound like a sick bunny but really she is feeling good and loving life, unless it is time to get sub q's. Which she is over in about 1 minute. I am just thankful to have her happy and energetic. If I have to give her the sub q's for the rest of her life which is what the vet thinks I am fine with that. As long as she gets a chance at life that every bunny deserves.


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## tonyshuman (Feb 17, 2009)

I'm glad to hear she's being a bouncing happy girl. You are giving her great treatment and lots of love, and she is a lucky girl. I hope she continues to improve.


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## myheart (Feb 17, 2009)

*Amy27 wrote: *


> With all this stuff she has been through and all the meds and fluids she is getting, it makes her sound like a sick bunny but really she is feeling good and loving life, unless it is time to get sub q's. Which she is over in about 1 minute. I am just thankful to have her happy and energetic. If I have to give her the sub q's for the rest of her life which is what the vet thinks I am fine with that. As long as she gets a chance at life that every bunny deserves.



:yeahthat: That is the way that I am feeling with Luna Belle. I think the vet was surprised today when I told him that Luna has actually been doing running binkies. She always makes me think in the back of my mind that there is no way she could be on Death's door if she is racing around and doing binkies. She (her essence)is still there, and that is what counts so much with any decision to toughen up and get used to giving those darn sub-q's.

myheart


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## Amy27 (Feb 17, 2009)

Thanks tonyshuman 

myheart I hope that because our buns are acting good it means the treatments we are giving them are making them feel good which is a good thing. We are still trying to get use to the sub q's here. I wonder how long it will take for them to not mind getting them. Do they think Luna will always be on sub q's or do they think at some point you can stop giving them to her? Chase will probably have to be on them for the rest of her life and I would just love it if we didn't have to hold her down to get them.


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## myheart (Feb 17, 2009)

I am most certain that Luna will get the sub-q's for the rest of her life. It doesn't make me happy in the least, but as a maintenance program, I best get used to it. The vet said that every-other-day will be fine for now, but if she ever does go into renal failure, the sub-q's will be crucial to her comfort. I also asked the vet about life-span and he said it will be totally on an individual basis. For now he is happy with her blood panel which shows her kidneys are working. 

Weshould be thankful for every binky and ray of sunshine they give us because our bunners are that much more special. 

myheart


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## Amy27 (Feb 18, 2009)

Tonight while giving Chase her fluids she bleed... a lot. I am worried. The vet tech has been holding her and I have been giving her the fluids. The way she has to hold Chase leaves very little room to put the needle in and it is usually in a spot that doesn't have much skin to pull up. Tonight I tried to put the needle in and I couldn't get it to go in. I thought I was being a baby and just not pushing hard enough. I finally said I couldn't get that spot and pulled the needle out. It didn't even feel like it went in. I could still see 3/4 of the needle so I know if it did go in it wasn't far. Anyway I went to try another spot and noticed the vet techs hand was all bloody and it was all over Chase. There was so much blood on her hand we thought she had gotten cut somehow. After cleaning up the blood we noticed it did come from Chase. I feel so bad. I wouldn't poke her after that and we put Chase in her carrier and the vet tech poked her. What did I do that caused her to bleed so much. I thought maybe I hit a vein but the vet tech said that probably wasn't the case. I would like to know what happened so I can avoid it in the future. I hope I didn't cause her to much pain. I am going to watch her to make sure she doesn't start bleeding again is there anything else I should do? Should I put something on it? I feel so awful.


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## NorthernAutumn (Feb 18, 2009)

Hang tight Amy.. I'm sure someone will be along shortly :hug:.
Chase is gonna be OK.


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## myheart (Feb 18, 2009)

Oh my gosh, Amy!!! I am so sorry this happened to you and Chase!!! I always go through the same thing in my head as I try to find a place to put the needle in also. I even expressed my fears and concerns to the vet and techs, but giving sub-q's are old-hat to them and they get it done in a flash. I have been so frustrated at times trying to insert the needle, that I have been very close to just taking Luna in and paying the $33.00 office call to have anyone else do it. The only thing is that I know I can't afford to do that every other day for the rest of Luna's life. So I need get strong for her sake.

Hugs to you and Chase!!! :hug:

myheart


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## Amy27 (Feb 18, 2009)

Thanks NorthernAutumn. Chase is running around and seems to be fine. But gosh that was scary.

Thanks myheart, you are so right that they are use to doing this everyday and I don't think they realize how scary it can be. 

I can't believe that small of a needle would let that much blood come out so quick. I don't understand how I didn't even notice when I pulled the needle out, neither of us noticed for a few seconds. Chase does move or flinch when we stick her with the needle and I don't know if that did something. Scary, I hope it never happens again.


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## myheart (Feb 18, 2009)

Amy, I was so hoping that some one would have responded to your question so that I may know the answer also. This will be one more thing for me to worry about on sub-q days... :cry2

I am glad Chase doesn't seem to be bothered by the incident. Give her some nose-rubs from me.

myheart


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## tonyshuman (Feb 18, 2009)

Wow I don't know. I don't know much about the vasculature of a rabbit, so I don't know if there are any big vessels there. It's possible that you got a vein, I would think.


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## krsbunny (Feb 18, 2009)

That is going to happen from time to time when you are giving fluids. It scared the heck out of me the first time it happened to me with Murray. These incidents are few and far between and, in my personal experience (has happened with more than one bunny) it bothered me a lot more than it bothered the bunny!

I'll see if I can find a better explanation of what happened...meanwhile relax, it will be OK.

Kathy Smith


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## Amy27 (Feb 18, 2009)

I wouldn't worry about it to much myheart. It was way worse for me then it was for Chase. It really didn't seem to bother her at all. One thing the vet tech did was put pressure on it and it stopped very fast. I will try to always keep something beside me now when giving the fluids that I can use to put pressure if it starts to bleed. 

It could also have been the way we were giving it to Chase. It was farther down from her neck and there isn't a lot of skin to grab. I also wondered if the Lasix would make the blood thinner and that is why it bleed so much. 

Thanks tonyshumn, I think it was a vein also. Looking at the spot now it is pretty far from her neck. Probably about 4 inches. I think it would have to be a vein to bleed that much.


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## Amy27 (Feb 18, 2009)

Thanks Kathy. It helps to know that it has happened to other people to. And you are right Chase didn't seem bothered at all. Though she also couldn't move lol. I think one reason it looked like so much blood is because the vet tech put her hand there and then moved her hand a few times before we noticed so when we did notice it was all over Chase and her hand andChase is white so it showed up really well. 

I am feeling better about it now. I was worried about it starting to bleed again or it bothering Chase. But so far so good. 

Thanks so much for responding Kathy. It really helps me to know that this happens sometimes. I felt so guilty.


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## krsbunny (Feb 18, 2009)

I did some more research since I responded. My When Your Rabbit Needs Special Care coauthor, Lucile Moore, explains in the section on giving fluids that this happens more in cases wherefluids/injections are given on an ongoing basis:"The area [where injections are being given]may vascularize,or develop more tiny blood vessels, making it more difficult for you to give fluids without hitting a capillary. Giving the injections in different spots can help prevent these problems, although they may not entirely prevent their occurrence." A suggestion made elsewhere in the book is to think of the general area you are giving injections as a clock face (OK... age is showing here... my clocks are still not all digital!). Give first injection at 12:00 and move each subsequent one to 1:00, 2:00.... etc. Obviously, the smaller the bunny, the harder this might be to accomplish. 

Kathy


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## Amy27 (Feb 18, 2009)

Thanks Kathy. That was very helpful. I think it would help me to maybe get some books to read about things like this. Then maybe I would be able to deal with them better and even prevent them from happening. I looked that book up on amazon and it looks like it would have a lot of good information. I am very curious about how sounds and colors could help healing. I am going to order it but wondered if there are any other books you could recommend. It is so cool to have you on this board with all the knowledge you have, I really appreciate all your help and sharing your knowledge. 

If you don't mind answering, I am kind of curious about how you became interested in rabbits and also what made you interested in the holistic side. Again don't feel like you have to answer. It just seems there is not a lot out there for rabbits. There is so much more for cats and dogs. I know you have talked about your bunny's being sick and I didn't know if that's whatgot you interested. 

Thanks


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## krsbunny (Feb 18, 2009)

Four Paws Five Directions by Cheryl Schwartz gives a good overview of Traditional Chinese Medicine. It is specific to cats and dogs... and I must warn you that it includes diet suggestions for some conditions in dogs that will bother you. But if you can get past that... it really does explain the theory very well ... and it makes sense to me.

I don't mind answering the other questions <gr>. I loved rabbits since I was a little girl. It should have been a "clue" to my folks when, instead of playing with baby dolls, I dressed my stuffed rabbits in doll clothes! We adopted our first rabbit in 1983. I started writing Rabbit Health in 1998 after Smokey lost his battle with cancer.

King Murray's myriad of physical ailments was what mademe start exploring holistic medicine. My husband saw a holistic vet on TV and later when I heard the same name through my local HRS I decided to give it a try. The combination of chiropractic and acupuncture helped Murray handle the "side effects" of traditional medicine better. In addition to helping Murray, I learned so much from just chatting with Dr. Kidd at each session. When I saw the name of the human acupuncturist he recommended in a newspaper article with a Dr. (Jane) Murray ... I knew I'd found a new doctor for myself ... and she is awesome. She put me in touch with my Energy Therapist ... who also has taught me much of what I know. Like Bach Flower Essenses, sound, color, and crystals are all work on the physical body through the energy body. I was always fascinated by physics... I would not be surprised if one day we find more answers to health through physics than through medicine.

Kathy


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## Amy27 (Feb 19, 2009)

Thanks Kathy for the suggestion. I also have a cat with a ton of health problems and the vets have really done all they can so it sounds like that book would be good for all my animals. I ordered it. I will have lots of reading to do. I also like that that book talks about accupuntcure which we talked about before and I am really interested in learning more about it. 

That is so funny and cute that you use to dressstuffed rabbits up instead of dolls. It seems like you have had a lot of mentors help you learn about this stuff and now you are passing that information on to us. If more people would learn about rabbit care we would be able to provide our animals with better care. It is so hard to trust a vet because there is somuch conflicting information and it is constantly changing. I do think the owner, unfortunatly has to learn a lot of it themselves to try and protect there rabbit. 

I have never really learned a lot about physics. But it seems like taking the time to learn it would benefit me, my buns and my cats. This is a side of things I have never considered and now I am all pumped up to learn about it. 

Thanks for sharing your story. If you think of any other helpful books let me know. I love to read and find this stuff very interesting and beneficial when a situation arises. If I knew 3 months ago what I know now I think things would be a little different with Chase. I have to try and keep my knowledge ahead of what the vets might suggestso I know a little about it and if she doesn't suggest something I can recommend it. 

The vet Chase is currently seeing wrote this book http://www.amazon.com/5-Minute-Veterinary-Consult-Ferret-Ruminant/dp/0781793998/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235016561&sr=1-4I have thought about getting that one also but is more expensive and I am afraid it will be over my head on the medical treatments they discuss. Have you ever read it? Just curious of what you thought of it? 


Sorry about all the questions. I am a very curious person when it comes to new things and love having the option to learn more about them. 

Thanks again for sharing your story.


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## Amy27 (Feb 19, 2009)

Chase bleed again tonight. The vet tech did the poking tonight. She poked him more in the nech area then I did yesterday. THe needle wasn't in a good position so she pulled it out to try again and the blood comes flowing. I think we have moved spots a lot we use different sides. It is just so weird. 

I called the vets office today just to let them know to make sure the meds wouldn't be doing this. But I didn't get to talk to the vet only the vet tech who was no help at all. Tonight I called and left a message wit the receptionist that I wanted the vet to call me. Could there be an underlying cause? Like her blood thinning or her skin thinning? It just doensn't seem normal to happen 2 days in a row. Do you think if it was the Lasix it would have taken this long to have that effect? She has been on it since Thursday so a week. I will see what the vet says tomorrow.


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 19, 2009)

I hope they can get her through this thing with the bleeding. Poor girl.


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## myheart (Feb 19, 2009)

Poor Chase.... Did the bleeding stop as well as it did last night? I do hope you are able to get to the bottom of this. I don't know if the bleeding could make Chase more susceptible to infections or abscesses....(?) 

Please keep us informed about what the cause is. :hug:

myheart


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## Amy27 (Feb 19, 2009)

Thanks Bo B I really hope we can to. 

myheart, she stopped bleeding after a minute or two of pressure again. I am not sure about it making her more susceptible of infection or abcess. 

I think I can say it was a fluke or something happening 2 days in a row but if it happens again tomorrow Chase is going back to the vet early. She's a pretty large rabbit and we move where she gets the fluids. Something had to have changed because there was never even a drop of blood before.


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## naturestee (Feb 19, 2009)

That's very strange. Are you always sticking her around the shoulders/neck area? Have you tried farther back? When I was shown how to do sub-q fluids, the tech put it in near her hips, sort of above the hind legs. It was pretty far back, but that's where the skin was loosest as the bun (Sprite, RIP) had tight skin.


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## Amy27 (Feb 19, 2009)

Usually we put it from her neck back to about the middle of her body. If we go back from her neck a few inches we usually go to the side because there is more skin. I just don't get why the bleeding has started now. What changed from a week or 2 ago when she was getting them.


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## krsbunny (Feb 19, 2009)

I have the book your vet wrote in my library. As vet texts go, it is one of the easier to understand and I like how it is arranged if you are looking up a particular condition. However, I also really like the variety of content (including some great info on diet and nutrition) in the Harcourt-Brown Textbook of Rabbit Medicine.

Kathy


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## tonyshuman (Feb 20, 2009)

Well, Kathy said earlier that rabbits getting frequent sub-q's in one area might grow more blood vessels in that area (vascularize) in order to make absorption of the liquid into the blood stream faster. It can take a few days to weeks for blood vessels to grow like that. Maybe it would be good to try another place like the hips for the next few weeks?

It must be terrifying, and I would be worried that blood loss would be dehydrating. I can't find any information that Lasix leads to bleeding (ie that it interferes with the blood's ability to clot). My guess is just that the capillaries and vessels in the area are changing, and that makes it hard to determine where to give the sub-q's.

I hope we can come up with a solution for this...[[hugs]]


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## krsbunny (Feb 20, 2009)

Thanks for the reminder about Chase being on Lasix. I went to one of my "drug sites" (rxlist.com) to look at side effects.Systemic vasculitis (inflammation of the blood vessels)is listed among the potential side effects. I would definitely discuss the bleedingwith your vet and mention this as a possible side effect of the Lasix. I cannot remember if Murray started having more of these problems after he was put on Lasix, but it is possible.

Good luck.

Kathy


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## NorthernAutumn (Feb 20, 2009)

No brilliant ideas from me... just wanted to tell you, Chase and Little Bunny I'm thinking about you guys :hug:


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## Amy27 (Feb 20, 2009)

tonyshuman, I don't think Chase is getting her injections in the same spot or even close to the same spot in order for it to be the blood vessels growing. I guess it would depend on whether the vessels get bigger just where the fluids are given or if they would get bigger from where the fluid goes also. If they get bigger from where the fluid goes I think that could be the problem. She gets a lot of fluid and gravity moves it down. So maybe it is the blood vessels. 

Kathy I spoke with the vet before I saw your message. If it happens again this weekend I will call her and tell her that Lasix can make the blood vessels inflammed. When I spoke with her I asked her if it could be the Lasix and she said no. She said it just happens sometimes and to look at Chase's ears and belly and if there are any bruises to bring her in. She also said if it keeps happening I can bring her in sooner then friday. So we will see what happens tonight. 

Thanks NorthernAutumn it always makes me smile when you include the Little Bunny.


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## Maureen Las (Feb 21, 2009)

Actually I thought I postedlast night . I looked up Lasix last night and one of the side-effects (butI don't think a verycommon one ) is bruising and easy bleeding . I really don't know why he would be bleeding other than that .
That may not be the reason but I don't kniow why else. 

What are all the other meds that he is on?


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## Amy27 (Feb 21, 2009)

Thanks for responding angieluv. Right now Lasix is all she is on. She was on Metacam until about a week ago so I don't know if that would still be in her system. She didn't bleed tonight so I will cross my fingers. 

I did check Chase's ears and stomach for bruising which is where the vet told me to check. I didn't see any bruising and her stomach still is missing most of her hair from surgery so I would hope I would have seen something if it was there. The vet also said the stomach is where the bruising would start before the ears.


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## Maureen Las (Feb 21, 2009)

When you are giving the injections are you sure that it's going under the skin and not into the muscle ..the needle would go sideways..

some people think of pulling up the skin as a tent and inserting the needle into the opening

I have had to do bicillin with Beau (just stopped them last week ) for several months and his skin is so loose that I had a lot of trouble not shooting out the other side all over him...

I guess that they are all different but just wandered if the needle is going into the right place.


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## Maureen Las (Feb 21, 2009)

I think we have a video in the library but i don'tknow which one...not sure

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wkSuUID2WA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wkSuUID2WA[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10XODWMV3uI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10XODWMV3uI[/ame]


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## tonyshuman (Feb 21, 2009)

I thought that the side effect of easy bruising was from anemia, but I don't know. I think there would be other issues from the anemia if she had it. The side effect of inflammation of the blood vessels does make sense, although the sites I read didn't have it. Anyway, it's something to ask the vet about for sure.


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## Amy27 (Feb 22, 2009)

The vet tech usually gives the fluids. There have been a hand full of times I have done it. I always tent the skin and put the needle in sideways. I hope that we are getting the needle in the right spot. The vet tech has experience doing this and 2 out of the three times she has bleed it was the vet tech giving them. Chase bleed again today. So for 3 weeks she never bleed a drop and now out of the last 4 days she has bleed 3 times. 

When this happens should I put something on where it is bleeding? The vet tech applies pressure until it stops. She wants to put peroxide on it but I thought I read somewhere it is dangerous for bunnies. Chase cleans where ever it is so it would have to be something safe. 

I am definitly going to mention the side effect of inflammed blood vessels to the vet. 

Chase is scheduled to go to the vet on Friday. Should I take her in sooner since this has happen 3 out of the last 4 times? Or should I just wait till friday. When I spoke with the vet on Friday she thought it was normal and wasn't concerned. I don't know what she would do if I took Chase in. I don't want to over react and rush her there but don't want to sit and wait if she bleeds for the next 6 days while she gets them. 

Thanks for your help everyone.

ETA: I watched those videos and that is how we give the fluids.


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## Maureen Las (Feb 22, 2009)

*Amy27 wrote: *


> The vet tech usually gives the fluids. There have been a hand full of times I have done it. I always tent the skin and put the needle in sideways. I hope that we are getting the needle in the right spot. The vet tech has experience doing this and 2 out of the three times she has bleed it was the vet tech giving them. Chase bleed again today. So for 3 weeks she never bleed a drop and now out of the last 4 days she has bleed 3 times.
> 
> When this happens should I put something on where it is bleeding? The vet tech applies pressure until it stops. She wants to put peroxide on it but I thought I read somewhere it is dangerous for bunnies. Chase cleans where ever it is so it would have to be something safe.
> 
> ...



I would take her in earlier than Fri mainly for your own sanity. it would be hard to give sq's if the rabbit bleeds. You are right about the hydrogen peroxide ; shouldn't use it ..not everyone knows that. 

I 'm not sure what can be done about this if it's from the lasix and she needs it but the vet may be able to do bloodwork ( not sure if they do that extensive bloodwork on rabbits though)
You may be able to find an area where she doesn't bleed as frequently and use that general area for awhile although it is best to rotate. Where did you do it when she didn't bleed?


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## Amy27 (Feb 24, 2009)

I am really trying to hold out until Friday. Just so the vet has her two weeks of 150ml of sub q's and Lasix everyday. I am not sure if I am going to make it. Chase and I are both so tired of all this. Tonight Chase made a noise when the vet tech poked her and it just broke my heart. I am going to try and wait to go as long as I can. Only 3 days of sub q to go to make it till Friday. 

The peroxide thing just tells you how awesome this site is. I thought I had read that somewhere on here. I am glad I didn't use it now. Thanks angieluv for confirming that I didn't make that up. 

We have always given the fluids going from her neck to the middle of the body. If we go farther down there isn't alot of room to tent the skin. We do go down on the sides of her body also from the neck to the middle of her body. We have been doing it the same as always. I didn't think it was the case at first that she was getting more blood vessels as Kathy said but the last few days we have been really watching and there really isn't a lot of room to poke that you haven't used before. So I am think now that that is the problem. Chase just is getting tired of it. I am just crossing my fingers that Friday a change will have been made and we can go to every other day. 

I am also going to take the holistic advice that has been offered here to the the vet Friday. I am also going to call the holistic vet tomorrow and see what they can tell me so I can talk to my vet about accupuncture on Friday.


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## tonyshuman (Feb 24, 2009)

Yes, I have heard that peroxide is too harsh for rabbit skin, and in particular abscesses. Some old-school vets recommend washing out the wound with peroxide which is VERY painful. It wouldn't be my first choice as a disinfectant for bunnies, which would be betadine.

Sounds like you will be well prepared for your vet visit on Friday, and I bet you feel like it can't come soon enough. Good luck, and get well wishes to all of you.


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## Amy27 (Feb 25, 2009)

Thanks tonyshuman. 

I just need to vent, you don't have to reply. I am just hoping I will feel better after typing it out. 

Chase and I are just DONE with all of this. She bit me today she was so upset about her sub q's and left a mark, luckily it didn't break the skin. She is just over it as I am. She is sad, I think because she misses her bunny friend who still growls and tries to bite her through 2 cages. I just want BOTH of my happy bunnies back. 

It has been almost 4 weeks since Chase started sub q's. I will not continue to give them everyday. I will try to work with the vet and will do every other day but everyday for this long is to much. If the vet thinks that won't work then they need to go up there with a catheter and flush it out. If I had done that 4 weeks ago I may be ahead right now. Everyday is just to much. It took along time to give Chase her fluids tonight and I think it was 3 pokes. I am just so upset that they can't do more. I would do anything pay anything if I just knew what to do. 

Then I called the holistic vet near me today and the lady laughed, that is really what I need when I am already over all of this. I asked her if they did accupuncture on rabbits because there website says they do accupuncture. She said no. I asked if they saw rabbits at all thinking may be they would have ideas of other holistic approches. She laughed and said no we only see cats and dogs. I really wanted to ask her what was funny about it. Do rabbits not deserve that type of care? But I figured I was to emotional and over reacting so I just said ok and hung up. 

Ok after the book I wrote I do feel better. I just want to find something that works. It is just so hard for me to understand why this can't be corrected.


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## Amy27 (Feb 25, 2009)

Ok I just looked at the website of the place I called it says they provide services to pocket pets. Does that include rabbits? Here's the website http://www.northworthingtonpetclinic.com/aboutus/servicesandbenefits.html


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## naturestee (Feb 25, 2009)

Usually if theydo "pocket pets" they also do larger ones like rabbits and guinea pigs. I can't believe that woman laughed at you!:X


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## Amy27 (Feb 25, 2009)

I couldn't believe she laughed at me either. I don't know if I am taking it wrong like she laughed at the fact I though they would see rabbits or if may be it is just something no one has ever called and asked. I so want to call them back and ask them what they consider pocket pets. 

There is another holistic vet in my area and on the website it states they see rabbits so I will see if they do accupuncture on them. When I look for a vet who does accupuncture do I need them to be just as rabbit savvy as a regular vet or is it ok if they only see a few rabbits a year? I would imagine that it would be very hard to find a holistic rabbit savvy vet.

Ok this is what bothers me about the other holistic vet and the reason I didn't call them first. Under your first visit this is what it says: 

We recommend that you withhold food from your pet for 12 hours before your visit, in case a blood test is needed. (No food, but water is okay.) 


I don't think it is ok to put a blanket statement like that on your website. I know how harmful it can be to rabbits to withhold food. What if an owner didn't know better? Or if an animal was sick and had to havefood? I just really think that is wrong.


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## tonyshuman (Feb 25, 2009)

That's terrible that she laughed. This is so difficult for you and Chase and Little Bunny, and I don't know what more you can do for her. You're doing so much for her already. I don't know what to say but I hope things improve. [[hugs]]


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## myheart (Feb 25, 2009)

*Amy27 wrote: *


> *Chase and I are just DONE with all of this.* She bit me today she was so upset about her sub q's and left a mark, luckily it didn't break the skin. She is just over it as I am. She is sad, I think because she misses her bunny friend who still growls and tries to bite her through 2 cages. *I just want BOTH of my happy bunnies back.
> *
> It has been almost 4 weeks since Chase started sub q's. I will not continue to give them everyday. I will try to work with the vet and will do every other day but everyday for this long is to much. If the vet thinks that won't work then they need to go up there with a catheter and flush it out. If I had done that 4 weeks ago I may be ahead right now. Everyday is just to much. *It took along time to give Chase her fluids tonight and I think it was 3 pokes.* I am just so upset that they can't do more. I would do anything pay anything if I just knew what to do.



:hug::hug2::bunnyhug:Iwish we had more hugging smileys 'cause there just don't seem to be enough for what you, Chase, and Little Bunny are going through.

I feel the same way as you do.... I so wish none of this had happened to my Luna because it is just not right and not fair. I hate giving the sub-q's because I am just not confident/comfortable enough with giving it. Luna had me in tears, and my hands were shaking so badly, that I could do nothing but let her go because it wasn't fair to try sticking the needle in so many times that she started thumping about it. Gosh, I am in tears just thinking about that day....

If you still plan on waiting until Friday for Chase's next appointment, do what you feel is right. I know my vet told me, as well as a few forum member, that it is okay to miss a day every so often. Some days are just not good needle-stick days, I guess. 

What ever you do, don't feel like you let her down. Sometimes I feel like the worst bunny-mom/pet guadian in the whole world because I can't make Luna better. If I can't stick a needle into my pet, that doesn't mean that I don't love her, I just can't do it at that moment in time because I need her to be okay with it also. If you and Chase are both frustrated, let it rest and re-group. Or only try to get half the amount into her so it doesn't take so long. 

Friday is not that far away....

myheart


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## Amy27 (Feb 25, 2009)

Thanks you guys. Thank you also for mentioning Little Bunny. She is kind of the forgotten one right now though I try to do what I can to let her know I still love her. It always makes me smile on here when people mention her. It also helps me to remember that she is having a rough time too. 

I am usually not real worried about Chase getting all her fluids but tonight I was like it is the count down till you go to the vet, we gotta flush your bladder, you got to get these fluids. 

I have a vet tech that comes and helps me give the fluids so it is hard for me to let her calm down and try again later. 

Myheart you are so right it just isn't fair. When I read your posts I feel the same way as you a lot of the time. I kept thinking it would get easier, that Chase would get use to it and it really doesn't. I really hope myheart that you, me, Luna and Chase have some better days coming. Part of it makes me mad. There are people who would not do or spend what we are for our rabbits. I think most people would on this website but in general there are people that wouldn't. We are doing so much why can't we get a break? Why can't they do something to make our bunny's better. I hope we get the break we deserve soon.


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## Maureen Las (Feb 26, 2009)

*Amy27 wrote: *


> Thanks tonyshuman.
> 
> I just need to vent, you don't have to reply. I am just hoping I will feel better after typing it out.
> 
> ...



I cannot believe that woman laughed at you ; that really p...me off as you are going through enough torment to have someone laugh at your atempts to help your rabbit. 

Iguess that some people do think less of small animals but it isn't right as they deserve the same as any animal.

Maybe you can find an acupuncturist through here or another rabbit site or HRS in your state. 

i feel sad for all you and Chase (and also Luna and Janet) are going through with these subq's ; it really is heart breaking to hear you talk about it. 

If I lived near you i would come over and help you "(hugs)"

Maureen


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## NorthernAutumn (Feb 26, 2009)

I feel so sad to read that Chase is struggling with her Sub-Qs right now, Amy. This is very hard on your whole crew, and I'm sorry you have to go through it right now. :hug:.

That laughing lady needs a smack:grumpy:. Was she just a receptionist? I've found that some vets employ very ignorant folks... I would call back and ask to speak with the vet directly.

Nose rubs to Chase and Little Bunny, and Big HUGS to you! Friday is tomorrow... You're almost there 

Autumn


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 26, 2009)

Me too. It makes me so sad..... I'm thinking of all of you


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## Luvr of Wabbits and Polar Bears (Feb 26, 2009)

Amy I've been following your post since the being and I'm sorry your having a rough time with Chase and Little Bunny. 
I hope everything gets better for you soon.
Hugs to the 3 of you. :hug1:bunnyhug:


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## Amy27 (Feb 26, 2009)

Thanks everyone for the thoughts. Chase, Little Bunny and I all appreciate them. 

I am glad it wasn't just me that thought that lady was rude for laughing. The lady that laughed was the receptionist. I don't think I would ever go to that place because of the receptionist, even if I talked to the vet and she would do it. Anyone that employees someone that thinks rabbits don't deserve the same healthcare options that cats and dogs get I won't give them a cent of my money. 

The good news is I called another holistic vet this morning and have an appt for next week. The appt is for a holistic consult and then the vet will decide if he thinks accupuncture will help. The vet has done accupuncture on rabbits a few times but not a lont. I am going to go and see what he says and will try to go with my guy feeling. Makes me nervous that he isn't rabbit savvy but I don't think I will find a rabbit savvy holistic vet. And let me tell you holistic vets are expensive. The consult is $65 for the exam and then $73 for every 15 minutes for the holistic consult. I am going to make sure I have all my questions written down so hopefully we can do it in 15 min. I was afraid to ask how much the actual accupuncture costs. 

Can't wait till Chase's appointment tomorrow. I really hope we get some decent news. 

Thanks again everyone.


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## myheart (Feb 27, 2009)

Wishing all you the best of luck on Chase's appointment!!! Please keep us updated when you have the chance to take a breath.

ray:

myheart


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## Amy27 (Feb 27, 2009)

Well you guys I think your good thoughts worked. Chase's bladder is free of calcium except for a line where the vet thinks her incision was. She said incisions tend to attract calcium and it stays there so she isn't worried about that at all. I really couldn't believe it. I was hoping for some good news but not this good. She showed me her x-rays and you can really see a difference. I am so happy. 

Now I need to keep it gone. Last time by the time Chase had her stitches removed the calcium was back. The vet is keeping her on the Lasix. She will get sub q's atleast every 3rd day. If she doesn't drink every other day. Which brings me to my next problem. Chase doesn't drink. She hasn't drank anything in 2 weeks. The vet is hoping that with less bub q's and the Lasix it will get her to drink. Any ideas on how to get her to drink I would love to hear them. Here is what I have tried so far water bottle, water bowl in all different sizes, an animal baby bottle, mixing cranberry or fruit juice in her water, and I have puried cilantro into a liquid form. None of that worked. I have tried to take the water bottle or bowl to her and she won't drink. Oh I also tried my cats water fountain. Any other ideas are very much appreciated.


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## slavetoabunny (Feb 27, 2009)

Try a few drops of vanilla in Chase's water. I've never had to do this myself, but I've heard it recommended.


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## Amy27 (Feb 27, 2009)

I think the problem is Chase doesn't even try her water to see if she even likes what is in it. 

I will try the vanilla and see how that works. Do you buy like the vanilla extract and use that?


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## Maureen Las (Feb 27, 2009)

I don't know anything about vanilla ; I have heardabout vanilla extract but doesn't ithave alcohol in it ( I think am not sure) so wait until you find out. 

I am SO SO Glad that she is better ..really glad

Since Chase and Luna have had bladder'kidney issues I have become paranoid about it happening to my rabbits. 
I have been giving my one big non drinker (Rudy)juice mixed with water and it is working well; his poops are much better. 
I really don't knowhow you can get water in her if the juice (try all different flavors and kinds?) doesn't work 
unless you can syringe fluids like juice and water and get her used to drinking from a syringe ( Beau is addicted to pedialyte from a syringe since he was sick with dental problems)
or do the wet greens thing but you have probably tried that

Since pedialyte has some sodium in it it might give a bun more of a thirst so you may want to try that . 
I really don't have any great new ideas on this 
but am so GLAD that she is better


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## BethM (Feb 27, 2009)

Amy, I am SO HAPPY to hear the good news!


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## Amy27 (Feb 27, 2009)

Thank you guys. Tonight I was sitting here on the computer and I hear the cat water fountain refill with water. I slowly turn around and who is standing there? Chase. So I moved that to her room. I am not sure how to measure if she is drinking with that big thing. I know the cat will jump the gate and drink out of it to. It is all she drinks out of usually. Looks like I may have to buy another one. I guess I will just have to try and watch her a lot and hope I see her drinking. 

The vet didn't want to see her back for a month. I don't think I can wait that long. If she isn't drinking in a month a stone could start to form. 

angieluv I am glad you have taken our stories and tried to prevent it in your bun. I haven't been on this board long but have you guys seen other bladder/kidney issues like this before on here? My vet told me 15% of rabbits she x-rays have some calcium build up. She stated that not all of those have symptoms some they are x-raying the heart or something else and see the calcium. I am still soaking Chase's greens so she will get water that way. If that is something you could do the vet seems to think the greens could almost hold enough to keep her healthy without drinking but she isn't sure. 

I have tried a syringe before and only got like .2 cc's in Chase. But if that is what it comes down to that is what I will do. 

Thanks again everyone.


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## myheart (Feb 27, 2009)

I am so happy for all of you!!!! I don't think you could have asked for a better result from all of your effort than finding almost no calcium. I do hope Chase is able to maintain a clean bladder from here on.

Great job Amy, Chase, and Little Bunny. Take a breath and have a good night's sleep.

myheart


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## Maureen Las (Feb 27, 2009)

*Amy27 wrote: *


> Thank you guys. Tonight I was sitting here on the computer and I hear the cat water fountain refill with water. I slowly turn around and who is standing there? Chase. So I moved that to her room. I am not sure how to measure if she is drinking with that big thing. I know the cat will jump the gate and drink out of it to. It is all she drinks out of usually. Looks like I may have to buy another one. I guess I will just have to try and watch her a lot and hope I see her drinking.
> 
> The vet didn't want to see her back for a month. I don't think I can wait that long. If she isn't drinking in a month a stone could start to form.
> 
> ...



Actually I think a lot of the bladder /kidney problems are genetic..BUT there is so much differing info that I thought I would play it safe. 

I have even eliminated some of the calcium rich veggies that I used to feed

I don't remember bladder problems like this before on RO but I have only been a mod since July . I remember reading quite a bit about bunnies with sludge (etherbun posts) not sure. 
I have one rabbit, Rudy, that is a sludge bunny waiting to happen. He is older, slightly overweight, doesn't move around much and barely drinks water. he always has concentrated pee. The problems with Chase and Luna sort of kicked me into action with him 

I am giving him water diluted with cranberry juice and also cut his pellets even more. . 

He isn't sludgey now but I think he has the potential. 
I did have an acute renal failure bunny, Gabriel. I did not try to prolong his life because of the severity of his problems. he was a victim of severe dehydration and starvation when he was still a baby and I know that it affected his kidneys severely. he died very young. 

I also had a dog with chronic kidney failure but she lived a long life and only was really sick the last month of her life. 
I wish that in time their is more definitive info on genetics vs diet because we could all breath easier and wouldnt need to feel like we did something wrong if our rabbit gets sludge , stones etc
I have no idea why Chase doens't drink ????


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## tonyshuman (Feb 28, 2009)

Good news!  I have read about calcium accumulating on scars in the bladder as well (somewhere...) so that is not at all unusual, but of course you need to make sure Chase is drinking. Sounds like he may need a water fountain of his own! I have heard adding a teaspoon on vanilla to a gallon of water--so maybe a drop to each dish. I don't think the alcohol content matters because it's such a small amount. I bet Chase does have a genetic issue with calcium absorption--it can be pretty common and you really have done everything you can to eliminate calcium from the diet. You may consider adding a bottle (or crock, whichever you don't have already).

I hope he continues to be sludge-free!


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## Amy27 (Mar 4, 2009)

angieluv, one thing that gets me with the genetic factor is what makes it happen at a certain point. Let me try to explain that better. Chase is about 5, I have had her since she was about 6 months old. She has never had any bladder issues until the last 5 months. So even if it is genetics you wouldn't know if your bun has it, right? It could come into play years after you have them. I am not sure that is right but just the way I understood when I asked my vet why Chase didn't have this problem from the beginning if it was genetics. I think it is great you are doing what you are doing with Rudy because how would you know if he has the genetics for it. 

I probably shouldn't even go there because there are so many genetic problems and we can never know if our rabbits carry them. It would be nice to know that by this age of a rabbit they would have had problems if they had a genetic problem for any disease. But I guess it could just show up anytime in there life. 

I hope I haven't made you or anyone else paranoid about it I just find it interesting and find other peoples thoughts on it interesting. I try to compare it to humans in the sense that you can be born with the genes for diabetes but that doesn't mean you develop diabetes as a baby. But there are several disease that are gentic that show at birth. Is there an age your bunny becomes safe from getting a disease or problem that is genetic? 

tonyshuman, Monday I ended up buying Chase a fountain of his own. I put the cat fountain in there but Chase wasn't to happy to have them visit her room whenever they wanted to play in it. Bad thing is I can't tell if she is drinking out of it, but she is urinating so that is a good sign. Right now Chase has a foutain, 3 water bottles and 2 water bowls in her room. I can't think of any other options to give her. I think if she won't drink out of those 3 she won't drink on her own.


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## Maureen Las (Mar 4, 2009)

You are right... many genetic problems do not show up at birth 
For ex. the rabbit that I just wrote about in the post on kathy's book had normall teeth until he was 2yrs old; he ate greens , hay and everything was fine until he was 2.5 yrs old. 
he was a petstore bunny (before my affiliation with the shelter) and he is also a holland lop. 
I think that you could predict if you knew the problems of the parents but many of us don't get from breeders 
If I did buy from a breeder I would definitely want to see both parents.


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## Maureen Las (Mar 4, 2009)

I am also interested in the genetics of rabbit problems ; because of Beau's teeth I am very frightened of teeth problems . If a person had 2 like Beau it would be diffficult to even begin to pay for the care. 
sometimes I just look at my 7 rabbits and wonder what lies ahead for them....



And then it would be interesting to know what is normal old age problems for rabbits... for ex if a rabbit is elderly and developed bladder problems is that considered an older bunny problem or is that a genetic problems.

Seem to me that organs would begin to fail in old age just like with humans and everything else living


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## naturestee (Mar 4, 2009)

Stuff like Type 2 diabetes, fibromyalgia, and schizophrenia (off the top of my head) generally don't occur until later than life but have a genetic component. Maybe there's a problem in rabbits that causes the calcium issues that doesn't show up till later. There's still a ton we don't know.

I'm really glad things are finally looking up for you and Chase!


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## Amy27 (Mar 4, 2009)

Both of my buns came from pet stores also. That was when I thought they were just cute little rabbits that sat in a cage and was happy with it. Then I fell in love with them and they let me know what really makes them happy lol. 

It would be really interesting to see if someone had a rabbit with a genetic health problem if the parents had that same problem. 

angieluv, I understand you looking at your rabbits and wondering what lies ahead for them. I would imagine and hope in the future maybe there would be some type of genetic testing for animals. I don't think I could imagine how much that would cost though. 

I'll try to remember to ask my vet what she considers old age for a rabbit next time I go. That is a good question. Is a normal life span of a rabbit about 10 years? If that is correct then middle age would be 5 years so maybe 7-8 is considered old age when they might have more health problems?

naturestee, I agree that if calcium issues are genetic that they could really show up at any point in a rabbits life. It is kind of scary to have a rabbit for several years and the rabbit is very healthy and then to have it get sick and have something that they will have to deal with the rest of their life. But I guess it is that way with any animal or human.


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## tonyshuman (Mar 5, 2009)

A lot of the genetic diseases develop at a specific time. Really obvious genetic diseases, like defects in development, show up right when the individual is born or while they're still growing, which is when they're very young. Naturestee mentioned schizophrenia, which has a strong genetic component, and it often manifests in the early 20s, since that's the time that the brain becomes fully mature. Breast cancer can have a strong genetic link, and typically develops mid to late life, but not everyone that carries the gene will develop it.

The thing here is that every disease is an interplay between the genes that the individual carries, and the environment they live in. The environment can dictate when a disease will show up and if it will show up at all. Frequently, they'll crop up when the organ system involved is changing, like in the early 20s for schizophrenia, and reproductive age-menopause for breast cancer. I imagine that Chase has developed this calcium metabolism thing because she's not a spring chicken anymore. I bet she had been metabolizing calcium differently for a long time, but after years of stress on her kidneys it's finally started to show in their ability to function so well. It's not something you could have known about, since it was not affecting her in a way you could see.

I didn't realize you have had her for so long! She is a special girl, and I'm sure with continued good care she will be with you for years to come.


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## myheart (Mar 5, 2009)

*Amy27 wrote: *


> angieluv, one thing that gets me with the genetic factor is what makes it happen at a certain point. Let me try to explain that better. *Chase is about 5, I have had her since she was about 6 months old. She has never had any bladder issues until the last 5 months. So even if it is genetics you wouldn't know if your bun has it, right? It could come into play years after you have them.* I am not sure that is right but just the way I understood when I asked my vet why Chase didn't have this problem from the beginning if it was genetics. I think it is great you are doing what you are doing with Rudy because how would you know if he has the genetics for it.
> 
> I probably shouldn't even go there because there are so many genetic problems and we can never know if our rabbits carry them. It would be nice to know that by this age of a rabbit they would have had problems if they had a genetic problem for any disease. But I guess it could just show up anytime in there life.
> 
> I hope I haven't made you or anyone else paranoid about it I just find it interesting and find other peoples thoughts on it interesting. I try to compare it to humans in the sense that you can be born with the genes for diabetes but that doesn't mean you develop diabetes as a baby. But there are several disease that are gentic that show at birth. Is there an age your bunny becomes safe from getting a disease or problem that is genetic?



:yeahthat: I agree with all of what you said Amy. Luna is about five or six years old with her first Gotchya Day coming up at the end of the month. I think she is closer to six or seven because she is turning grey already. Anyhow, I say the same thing.... Why now? Her calcium/kidney problem should have shown up at a much younger age so that it could have been managed much better. I would have liked to have caught this early enough to have been able to prevent so much damagefrom the stones. 

All I am saying, is that with knowledge of such genetic problems, management of the situation could be started early enough to delay major damage to vital organs for some time. Luna has blossomed into a wonderful personality! She is so funny and naughty now that I feel I am being cheated out of giving her the best life she could potentially have. I can't help but look at her and marvel at her resilience, but I cry in my heart knowing that any day she could go into renal failure and I would lose my baby-girl. 

All I wanted to do was to make Luna and Patrick happy for the last years of their lives together. I know Luna is better off with me than at her former home prior to her surrender to the shelter. But I can't help feeling that I have also failed her because I didn't catch the symptoms early enough to delay such a build-up of stones in her kidneys. 

Sorry to have high-jacked your thread, but I guess we are thinking along the same lines. Has Chase gone to see a homeopathic doctor yet? Any results if she did go? 

As always, prayers and hugs to you, Chase, and Little Bunny,

myheart


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## myheart (Mar 11, 2009)

Just wondering how Chase and Little Bunny are doing. Has Chase gone to see a homeopathic doctor yet? I am very curious to find out how thatwent....

myheart


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## Amy27 (Mar 11, 2009)

I wanted to answer your post before this one first. You really shouldn't feel like you failed Luna. Imagine if you hadn't taken her. Where would she be? I bet those owners would not do all that you are doing to keep her healthy. May be she came to you when she did because she needed someone who would love her and take care of her during the hard times. She needed more then an owner. She needed a partner to help her fight this and she found that in you. 

Rabbits are so good at hiding illnesses. I wouldn't beat yourself up about not catching Luna's symptoms first. The most important thing is as soon as you saw a problem you took her to the vet and have been doing everything you can for her. Chase went to the vet for her yearly check like 4-6 weeks before she had her first surgery to remove the largest stone. The vet didn't catch it. 

Chase is loving life without sub q's everyday. The Little Bunny is still crabby and mean. I can't wait till I can get them bonded again. The Little Bunny was never like this when they were bonded. 

I am not sure what I am doing with the homeopathic vet. Part of me is thinking what the vet is doing is working. Why put Chase through more vet appointments and possibly procedures. I would be sure if what the homeopathic vet is doing is actually doing anything for Chase since it seems like the Lasix and Sub Q's are working really well. I am going to see what happens at Chase's appointment on friday. I am kind of taking it day by day. If Chase is still doing good on friday I will probably wait. If the calcium has started to build back up I will probably take her. If I do take her I will make sure to let you know how it goes.

ETA: I was reading your last post on Luna and I wondered if what Chase is on would help Luna. Chase is taking Lasix and it has helped more then just giving sub q's everyday or every other day. The changes I have seen in Chase is that she is urinating a lot so it is really flushing her bladder and kidney's. Once they dropped the sub q's from everyday to every 3rd day her drinking has gone up a lot. In a 2 week period the Lasix cleared Chase's bladder of almost all the calcium. I didn't think about it with Luna before until you mentioned she passed some stones. I didn't realize before her stones were small enough to pass. I wonder if that would help her pass more stones faster. The bad thing with Lasix is you have to watch for dehydration and they don't really know the long term side effects. It is used in rabbits with heart failure to remove the water around the heart. Those rabbits don't usually live that long so they are not sure how it will effect a rabbit long term. That is what my vet said anyway. Just an idea. 

ETA again: I was just thinking. I think Lasix can make kidney function worse so may be it wouldn't be good for Luna since she runs the risk of kidney failure.


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## myheart (Mar 12, 2009)

Thanks for the thoughts Amy. You are right, Luna may not even be here if she were with her former owner, or some one not willing to make an effort to make her comfortable. I am not sure if Lasix could help Luna's condition, but I will still bring it up to the vet when we go back in a few weeks. 

Luna is doing quite well for her condition. Her honking has diminished quite a bit, so I think that passing the stones must have taken close to a week, according to her honking-scale. I know that I am going to have to be more vigilant about what she eats. I have a feeling she was sneaking munchies from Patrick's cage while I was gone to work. So, I am going to supervise Patrick's foods when he eats to make sure things get pulled before Luna has a chance to clean up Patch's left-overs.

I am not going to give up hope for clean(er) kidneys. If there were that many stones that passed completely out, I believe more could pass as well. I will be saying more healing prayers for her, and am in the process of making my home less stressful for all of us. 

Keep us all posted on Chases progress. I do hope you are able get your bunners bonded again. I am sure that would be less stress for all if they could be cuddly again.

myheart


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## Amy27 (Mar 14, 2009)

Chase went back to the vet today. This is what her discharge instructions says: Normal bladder. No evidence of calcium deposits. 

I can't believe it. I really feel like it is a miracle. The calcium that was in the bladder 2 weeks ago that they thought was attaching to the scar is even gone. The vet was even blown away. She never thought that would go away. 

Lasix has really saved Chase's life. The vet did say taking the Lasix long term could cause problems down the road. But I will deal with it when I get to that point. She will get blood work every month to watch what the Lasix is doing to her body. 

I really thought I would have to put Chase to sleep. As did both vets. When I got good news 2 weeks ago I was happy but was still very hesitant to get too happy. Now I really feel like I will have along time to spend with her. I can relax and know that I still have time with her. 

She only has to get the sub q's once a week now. I can't tell you how much that will help with my pocket book. Chase seems so much happier on the days she doesn't get the sub q's. The vet thinks we might even be able to stop the sub q's and just keep her on the Lasix. If her bladder is still good in 2 weeks we will try it. 

I can never thank you all enough, for all your support, advice and information. There have been so many things you guys have suggested that I have used. I think I take information to the vet everytime I go that I have gotten from tyou guys. I really believe without the support and help I received from this site I would have listened to the vets when they said there isn't much I could do. You guys gave me the strength to fight for Chase and it has paid off. I will never be able to show/tell you guys how much that means to me or Chase. She has been given the chance for a longer better life because of it. Thank you so much.


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## BethM (Mar 14, 2009)

Oh, Amy! This is wonderful news! I am so happy for you and Chase both, and I'm sure even Little Bunny will be feeling the better energies at home!

:bunny24


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## Amy27 (Mar 14, 2009)

Thank you Beth and thank you for responding to my posts through this tough time. I am going to start rebonding the bunnies, as soon as I figure out how. I think things will be a lot happier around here once they are back together.


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## NorthernAutumn (Mar 14, 2009)

[align=center]:shock2:

[/align][align=center]YAY WHOO-HOO!!! AWESOME!!! MIRACULOUS!!!!

:great::great::great::great::great::great:
arty:arty:arty:arty:
:woohoo:woohoo:woohoo:woohoo:woohoo
[/align]

Amy, you have been such a trooper through these past months! Whadda bunny mom! You never gave up! Success is yours, and Chase's and Little Bunny's!

YOU BEAT IT!!!!

I can't tell you how happy I am for all of you!!!!!:highfive:


Autumn (who is delighted!)


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## Amy27 (Mar 14, 2009)

Thank you NorthernAutumn. You have been such a huge supporter for me and Chase. You have responded to every post I have made and always stayed active with the updates with Chase. Thank you so much.


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## Maureen Las (Mar 14, 2009)

Amy 

I couldn't be happier for you and Chase. This could seem like a miracle ; I am so very happy foryou ..you deserve it after all you've been through.


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## myheart (Mar 14, 2009)

Amy, I don't think I have enough words to say how happy I am for you and Chase. You both beat the odds on this one...

Congratulations!!!! :biggrin2::bunnydance:inkelepht:inkbouce::happyrabbit::yahoo::clapping:

myheart


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## tonyshuman (Mar 14, 2009)

WOO-HOO is right!!!

Such great care, and this is such a great story and example!

I've learned so much in this post, and I'm so so so glad she's back to (almost) normal!

Now to get her and Little Bunny to get along again.

But for now,
:bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance:


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## Amy27 (Mar 19, 2009)

Thanks guys. tonyshuman, I have learned a ton through this also. I am glad other people have. Alot of people came on here and gave some great information and I really appreciate that. 

I do have another question, of course lol. I didn't want to start a new thread and I looked in the library but does hot ears mean anything bad? I feel like I am becoming a hypocondriac (sp?) with Chase. I am constantly wondering why she is sitting like this, why she is taking to long to eat, why her skin seems to sink in between her shoulder blades and now tonight the new one is why are her ears hot. I don't know if any of them are valid concerns. I really don't think they are. She is eating and going to the bathroom fine. Her ears being hot is kind of worrying me because I know it isn't my eyes and head playing tricks on me. They feel warmer then they usually are. I need to just relax and enjoy that she is better. She goes to the vet in one more week, was just there a week ago. Nothing life threatening is going to happen in a 2 week span, right? Ugh I should be enjoying this and being happy but instead I am worrying, maybe it will just take me sometime to know she is really going to be ok.


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## Maureen Las (Mar 20, 2009)

It is strange that you should post this as it is something that has been in my mind and also a discussion on etherbun the past week
taking a rabbit's temperature 

First of all I am ashamed to say that I have never taken my own rabbits temps but we don't often discuss it on this forum. 
I think that Chase's ears being warm is significant and if you are like me you haven't taken a temp . Right ? 
I would guess that Chase has a fever and that you should take her to the vet tomorrow if you can
When Babette had her severe upper respiratory infection she would feel hot as you described
is Chase still getting sub q's as she sounds dehydrated 
I may be able to tell you how to take a rectal temp with a digital thermometer if you want to try but it depends on how comfortable you are doing it. 
I think that you are very observant


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## Maureen Las (Mar 20, 2009)

Geez I hope that you come back on tonight 
you need an infant rectal plastic digital thermometer well lubricated (vaseline)
here is a dana Krempels article on how to do this 

http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/sickbun.html


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## Maureen Las (Mar 20, 2009)

Amy............. 

Where are you?


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## tonyshuman (Mar 20, 2009)

My guys all had hot ears one day (I think it was because I left the windows open on a nice day and they were trying to warm themselves up). A single day of hot ears isn't really a concern, I think, but Maureen did post the correct way to take a bunny's temp if you're concerned and/or for future reference.


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## Amy27 (Mar 20, 2009)

Sorry to leave you guys hanging. I went to bed and then to work and just got home. Chase's ears have returned to their normal temp. They were pretty warm last night. 

angieluv thanks for posting that. I don't even have a rectal thermometer. I will have to get one and learn how to take her tempature for the future. I have never taken an animals temp before and I don't know how. Maybe I will get the thermometer and take it with me to the vets on friday and have her show me. 

Chase is getting her sub q's tonight and I am so excited. It will make me feel so much better. Her water bottles are not going down the last week like they were the week before. She maybe drinking out of her bowls but it is harder to tell with the bowls especially because she has 3.

Thanks gusy for replying. Atleast knowing how to take a temp will help me feel better in the future if this happens again.


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## Maureen Las (Mar 20, 2009)

Amy, 

Please have the vet show you how to do it as that it really the proper way , I think there are other methods of doing it other than what dana Krempels suggest. 

I was reading some really interesting info on etherbun this week. a lot of members debating whether they should take their own rabbit's temp 
I realized how important it is to know if the bun has a fever

for ex. if a bun has a fever you are not suppose to force (syringe feed) and also if a rabbit is hypothermic they will not be able to utilize many nutrient (even electrolytes in sub q fluids )until their body is at a more normal temp

I am going to discuss with Pipp whether we should have more info on RO re. temp
Anyway I'm glad that Chase is OK as I was sort of upset about it last night .


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## Amy27 (Mar 20, 2009)

It would really be great to have more information about it hear on the boards. I never would have thought that if a rabbit had a fever that your not suppose to syringe feed them. I agree with you that it is important to know if your rabbit has a fever. It would be so nice if there was an easier way to take a rabbits temp. With humans they have the ear thermometers and the ones they can slide across your forehead. Why can't they have something simple like that for animals? 

I am sorry you were upset about it last night. I really thought people would post here and tell me I needed to relax and enjoy that Chase is better. I know I am being over paranoid and thought last night was the same. I appreciate you guys always being here for me.


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## Maureen Las (Mar 21, 2009)

it's good that you didn't read it bcause I would have upset you.

If Claire had been here last night she would have said that her buns hadwarm ears and were fine 

but when my really sick girl(RIP) Babette had hot ears she was really sick 
soI freaked from personal experience from my own bun.
Iguess that my buns have warm ears sometimes in spring/summer when it was starting to get too warm in here 

I just read that you can only get a really accurate temp from a rectal temp but you can get a general temp from an ear thermometer ( I think ..have to check that again)


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## tonyshuman (Mar 21, 2009)

Yeah, I think you can generally get an idea of the temp from feeling the ears. Hot ears might be an indication of needing to get a more accurate temp with a rectal thermometer. That way you can figure out if it's something to worry about.


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## BethM (Mar 21, 2009)

I second the thought that maybe we could have more info here about temperatures. 

I wouldn't know what to do if one of my bunnies had a fever. When Nick was in stasis, I got some guidance over the phone from a bunny-savvy friend. She talked me through taking his temp (which he hated!). Two days in a row, he was quite cold. I had to heat him up with a heating pad.

Tobi frequently has cold ears, but she seems otherwise fine. It's usually when she has been resting; the ears are noticeably chilly.


Amy, I'm glad Chase is back to normal today.


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## Amy27 (Apr 8, 2009)

Chase's lab work came back today and everything was great. It doesn't appear that the Lasix is causing any problems. All her electrolytes were good. Thanks everyone who gave me some good suggestions on keeping her potassium levels up. Chase is loving her banana now every night. 

The vet said I can stop the sub q's as long as I know she is staying hydrated. The problem is I never really know. Everytime she has gone to the vet she has been hydrated and she is getting them once a week now. I just don't know if I can say good bye to them and not worry. 

She will go back in a month to have blood work again. It really looks like maybe this is going to be easier to manager then I thought. Thanks again everyone for all your help.


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## myheart (Apr 8, 2009)

I am so ready to cry happy tears for the both of you!!!! I do hope that all is said and done with the calcium and sludge. Please keep us updated as appointments go by. I also want to hear if Chase is able to re-bond with Little Bunny.

Time to get back to a more normal life...?!!!! :biggrin2:

myheart


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## Maureen Las (Apr 8, 2009)

*Amy27 wrote: *


> Chase's lab work came back today and everything was great. It doesn't appear that the Lasix is causing any problems. All her electrolytes were good. Thanks everyone who gave me some good suggestions on keeping her potassium levels up. Chase is loving her banana now every night.
> 
> The vet said I can stop the sub q's as long as I know she is staying hydrated. The problem is I never really know. Everytime she has gone to the vet she has been hydrated and she is getting them once a week now. I just don't know if I can say good bye to them and not worry.
> 
> She will go back in a month to have blood work again. It really looks like maybe this is going to be easier to manager then I thought. Thanks again everyone for all your help.


I'm really glad that Chase is dong so well 
If the sub q's are only once a week and you are unsure of hydration why don't you just continue them for awhile until you feel more comfortable


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## tonyshuman (Apr 8, 2009)

Yay! I agree that the sub-q may be worth the peace of mind knowing she's getting enough fluids at least for now.


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## Amy27 (May 1, 2009)

Chase went back for a follow up today. We didn't get great news but I am trying to tell myself it could be worse. 

She is well hydrated and her bladder is still sludge and stone free. The bad news is the Lasix started to affect her and her potassium is low. If it doesn't come back up in 3-4 weeks the vet may have to take her off the Lasix or try to cut it back. She said she could try a different med but she really likes Lasix. I am going to introduce more high potassium foods. The only problem with that is Chase gained 8 oz in a month. She is now 6.9lbs. She is overweight. Giving her more food is only going to make her gain more wieght. I feel torn on that because there isn't much I can do about it. She doesn't get any pellets so I can't cut that down. I can't cut her greens down because that is where she gets all her water. She is already out as much as possible. When I get the 2 bunnies bonded again she can have more time out as they won't have to split time out. 

The second issue is when Chase had her last surgery she wasn't stitched correctly or it didn't hold. But she had a hole in the tissue. We were hoping scar tissue would close the hole before anything started to come through it. That didn't happen. The x-ray today showed a large piece of fat coming out of the hole. We are still hoping that scar tissue will form to the fat and close that hole. If anything else starts to come through or too much fat she will have to have surgery again. This makes me livid. Chase and I have gone through all this the last few months to keep her from having to have surgery again. And for what if she ends up having to have it again? That just makes me so mad. I am trying not to blame the vet. But I am having a hard time with that. That day Chase had surgery the vet was very busy. She was kind of crabby towards me like it was a big inconvience to fit Chase in. It just makes me wonder if she was hurrying and that is how this happened. The vet that did surgery is a different vet then the one Chase is seeing now. The vet that did the surgery offered to do the surgery for free to repair the open piece of tissue.

We will get through this too. It just really stinks. Poor Chase was really upset today going to the vet. She was shaking so bad her head looked like a bobble head. I feel bad for her and I hate that I can't do more to protect her.


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## tonyshuman (May 1, 2009)

Sounds like time for some bananas... They seem to have a bit of water content so exchanging them for a veggie may not be detrimental.

I think as long as she is moving around well and the vet isn't concerned about fatty liver disease, keeping her a bit on the heavy side is fine. I don't want this to sound bad, but if she gets seriously ill and goes off food, she will have something to rely on.

Poor girlie with her incision! Try not to think about how the improper stitching happened. Things happen. Vets get busy and when you see a hundred well-loved pets every day, it's hard to keep your cool and treat every one as special as the owner would like. I can imagine how the vet would be frustrated, and she may have made a mistake, but now it's done and there's no other thing you can do. All you could do is ask the vet for an apology at this point, I think. When I think of all the mistakes I make at work, it's good that I don't do critical surgeries on other peoples beloved pets!

Good luck.


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## Amy27 (May 1, 2009)

Thanks Claire. Chase has been on Banana's for about a month now. She gets about a piece about an inch long 4-5 times a week. I am going to introduce broccoli, raisins, cantelope and try spinach again. I tried it before and Chase didn't really care for it. You are right that if Chase does ever stop eating she will have lots of body weight to help her. I trust my vet and she thinks it is more important to get her potassium up and not to be to worried about her weight right now. 

I think the same thing about mistakes, if I was doing critical surgeries I would be introuble because I do make mistakes. I do believe that the vet that did the surgery is a good vet. I believe she cared about Chase, she would ask about her even after I changed vets but would sometimes stop in there to pick up fluids since they are closer to my work and cheaper. I think her way of saying she would repair it for free even though I decided to wait the offer would stay open was kind of her way of apologizing and trying to make things right. It will just really pain me to see Chase in pain again and trying to recover for something that could have been pervented. I guess I will try to hope we never get to that point. I will be crossing my fingers that the fat fills the hole and scar tissue forms. 

It is nice to know I have you guys here for Chase and I. The vet is there for me too but in a medical way, you guys really help keep me sane through this and provide me with emotional support. I really appreciate it.


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## Maureen Las (May 1, 2009)

I am thinking that you could get a potassium supplement from a health food store in another form like a tablet or powder; 

but I don't know if this is safe for rabbits

http://www.medicinenet.com/potassium_supplements-oral/article.htm

could be potentially dangerous if the level was too high ; have no idea how it would be dosed


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## Amy27 (May 2, 2009)

The vet did mention down the road we could use a supplement and I wish while I was there I had thought to ask why it had to be down the road. When she mentioned it, it didn't sound like something she really wanted to do. I may call and ask for clarification on why I would need to wait to try that. 

It would make things a lot easier to do it that way. Plus a lot cheaper. I know with the banana's I waste a lot because they go black before Chase will finish one. After I peel one I can keep it good for a day or two and then I have to toss it. 

I do have a few questions with feeding broccoli. Do you guys cut off most of the stem? Is it okay for them to eat the stem? I thought I read somewhere broccoli can cause gas but I can't find it now. Is that true? Do you think I could soak the broccoli in water and it would absorb it or would it make it soggy and gross? 

Thanks


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## BethM (May 2, 2009)

I'm not sure about soaking the broccoli. I have also heard that it can cause gas, so I feed it in smaller amounts. I know people who give their bunnies broccoli more regularly without problem, so it might be one of those things that depends on the bunny.

My bunnies love broccoli, and I only give them the stem. I also like broccoli, so I will get a small head, and trim the tops for myself, then cut the stem into small pieces for the bunnies. I usually don't use the thicker stem down near the bottom, mostly because I get plenty of pieces near the top. I also give them any leaves that are on it. 

I haven't tried soaking broccoli in water. If you are using the tops, maybe if you just put the pieces in water for a short time (an hour or so?) right before feeding, the florets would hold some water. I wouldn't keep them in water for a long period, though.


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## Maureen Las (May 2, 2009)

*Amy27 wrote: *


> The vet did mention down the road we could use a supplement and I wish while I was there I had thought to ask why it had to be down the road. When she mentioned it, it didn't sound like something she really wanted to do. I may call and ask for clarification on why I would need to wait to try that.
> 
> It would make things a lot easier to do it that way. Plus a lot cheaper. I know with the banana's I waste a lot because they go black before Chase will finish one. After I peel one I can keep it good for a day or two and then I have to toss it.
> 
> ...



I think that if you looked at the link for potassium supplements that their probably is a chance of giving too much; maybe your vet never used them but it's worth looking into . Gaining weight isn't going to help her any....

Inever give broccoli LOL because it gives me gas and if it gives me gas I am afraid to give it to my rabbits


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## tonyshuman (May 2, 2009)

My guys get it frequently. I give them the stalks off what I cook for myself, and crowns too. My guys will eat anything, of course, but broccoli seems to be a favorite with all 4, and no gas here! I don't know if it soaks up water like lettuce...


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## Amy27 (May 3, 2009)

*angieluv wrote: *


> *Amy27 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > The vet did mention down the road we could use a supplement and I wish while I was there I had thought to ask why it had to be down the road. When she mentioned it, it didn't sound like something she really wanted to do. I may call and ask for clarification on why I would need to wait to try that.
> ...



I was thinking I might be able to give Chase the same amount I am now but just in a pill form so there wasn't additional calories. If I figured out how much she would be getting from the broccoli, banana, raisins, and canelope I would give her the same amount in a pill form if I could. Does that make sense? So hopefully she wouldn't get an overdose and if there was that would probably mean I was giving to much in food form. 

But that link said it can cause stomach upset and you have to take it with 8 oz of water. I would never get Chase to drink that much water. She gets almost all of her water from her greens. I really don't want to chance her stomach being upset either and have her stop eating her greens because she would get dehydrated them. So maybe it isn't a great idea. I know that the banana, raisins and so far the broccoli isn't causing any stomach problems. 

I am glad to know a couple of you give broccoli without a problem. So far it doesn't seem to bother Chase but I have been giving her real small pieces to start out. GOod to know the stem is fine for her to eat to. 

Thanks


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## Amy27 (Jul 3, 2009)

Chase went back to the vet today and the news was not great, not awful but not great. 

The sludge has returned. The vet wanted to start sub q's but I asked for her to give me a month. I really don't want to put Chase through that again. The vet agreed. I want to try and flavor Chase's water with banana flavoring as she has grown to love her nightly banana. Though after going to the store tonight, I realize that may not be easy. There is no banana flavored juices. I did buy a V8 fruit and veggie juice that is strawberry and banana flavored so we will see. I am also going to increase her veggies. she already gets two dinner plates of veggies a day and is over weight. 

Also her herniation from her previous surgery where the stitches didn't hold is getting really big. The vet said it is the width of 3 fingers. Right now only fat is coming through the hole but the vet feels that because it has gotten bigger organs could start to come through, which would mean she would have to have surgery again. From where the herniation is positioned the vet thinks it will be the bladder that will start to come through first. We were really hoping the herniated would close with scar tissue but that isn't happening. 

The good news is her potassium is good. So the Lasix isn't causing any problems there. 

I really wish we could find some permanent solutions to Chase's problems. This is getting so frustrating and is putting a huge financial strain on me. 

Chase is still happy as can be. I am happy to know that she is feeling better then she did before the surgery and starting all this, and that is what keeps me going. 

Thanks to all of you for always being here for Chase and I.


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## myheart (Jul 3, 2009)

I really do understand your personal pain and frustration. How much more do you do for them under such circumstances that are emotionally, mentally, spiritually, and financially draining? Luna is doing well also... still eating like a piggie and doing binkies. Most excellent signs for her condition. We still do fluids every other day along with pain meds. One day at a time.... but I still hate doing this stuff to her. She doesn't deserve this condition and I have serious doubts if I am still strong enough to take care of her. 

Please do whatever you feel is right in your heart for Chase. She is a happy girl for right now, and those moments should be treasured. I would never say anything bad if you, or Chase, didn't feel good about more treatments. You probably expected the sludge might come back at some time, just not so soon,and compounded with prior surgical procedures that should have had better results, I understand your hesitations.Please be careful of the "what-if's" that might follow any decisions you make.

ray: Prayers for all the best for yourself, Chase, and Little Bunny. 

myheart


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## Maureen Las (Jul 4, 2009)

*myheart wrote: *


> I really do understand your personal pain and frustration. How much more do you do for them under such circumstances that are emotionally, mentally, spiritually, and financially draining? Luna is doing well also... still eating like a piggie and doing binkies. Most excellent signs for her condition. We still do fluids every other day along with pain meds. One day at a time.... but I still hate doing this stuff to her. She doesn't deserve this condition and I have serious doubts if I am still strong enough to take care of her.
> 
> Please do whatever you feel is right in your heart for Chase. She is a happy girl for right now, and those moments should be treasured. I would never say anything bad if you, or Chase, didn't feel good about more treatments. You probably expected the sludge might come back at some time, just not so soon,and compounded with prior surgical procedures that should have had better results, I understand your hesitations.Please be careful of the "what-if's" that might follow any decisions you make.
> 
> ...



I am so sorry that the sludge is back. Janet"s thoughts on this also sum up mine. Give it some time and you will know what to doray:
"Hugs"

Maureen


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## Amy27 (Jul 4, 2009)

Thank you both for your kind words. I am going to try and keep fighting as long as Chase has a positive happy life. 

Janet, I am glad Luna is doing good. What a fighter you both are, especially still doing the sub q's. That is awesome. Have you worked out a good routine giving them to Luna? I am just curious because Chase always freaked out about it. 

I also wonder if I am strong enough to take care of Chase. Then I look at this little bunny who is fighting and think if she is strong enough, how can I not be. It is so hard.


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## myheart (Jul 4, 2009)

*Amy27 wrote: *


> ... I also wonder if I am strong enough to take care of Chase. Then I look at this little bunny who is fighting and think if she is strong enough, how can I not be. It is so hard.



I think that is what keeps me going also. Every morning that I seeLuna do binkiesabout getting out of her pen, begging to get into Patrick's cage for his left over salad, and more binkies for morning berries, I know I have to keep up with the fluids and her meds. I know that the seven minutes every other day that we both dread are still doing some good for her health and attitude.

I am not really doing anything different for giving Luna her fluids. I think I have dips in my confidence level and she is very capable of picking up on that. We are doing better at it of late, which is a relief because that means less tears and heartache on my part. I am also starting to give them a little further down her shoulders, instead of just in her white collar markings.

What Luna and I do works for us, usually. I tried to do the burrito and that was a total disaster. She became antsy causing the needle to get jarred. So I stopped everything and let her go and she ended up bleeding for a bit in that spot. We were both so upset!!! We do the same setup as we did from the beginning, and it works for the most part. No matter what, it just isn't fun or how itwas supposed to be.

myheart


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## tonyshuman (Jul 7, 2009)

Such strong people, and strong rabbits. They really are gentle, calm, and strong presences in our lives.

I'm so sorry that poor health has returned. As for banana, have you considered artificial banana flavoring from the spices aisle at the grocery store? I got some when I was painting some wood chew toys I was making with flavors and food coloring to make a toy for my guys, and they seemed pretty interested in it. I do remember it not being 100% water soluble though.

I'm so sorry that all this difficult stuff is going on. I know it must be difficult to deal with. I hope you can find some extra strength in yourself, in Chase's eyes, and in your talks with us here to pull through this. We are rooting for you 150% and I think about these guys pretty much daily, especially when anything comes up in the Infirmary about urinary tract issues. I know that you have already done a ton of work to make the quality of life for Chase so much better.

[[giant hugs and healing vibes]]


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## Amy27 (Jul 7, 2009)

Janet, I am glad things are going better lately. I hope it stays that way. I know when I was looking at videos online when I was starting sub q's with Chase I would see these animals that were use to it just lay there to get their sub q's. I wish it was that easy. 

Claire, the vet also mentioned banana flavoring from the spices section. I looked quickly at the grocery store and didn't see any. I need to look a little harder. I did try V8 splash that was banana and strawberry. Chase actually smelled, so I know it smelled different but then she ignored it. The vet also said she can get the banana flavor they use when they compound drugs that I can put in her water. 

I do get down, but then one of them always does something to make me laugh or smile and I remember why I am doing this. The people here have also been a huge help. People IRL just don't seem to understand. They think I am crazy so most of the time I don't even tell them what is going on. If it wasn't for you guys I wouldn't have anyone to talk to about it so it really helps. 

Thank you for your kind words, rooting for us, and thinking about us. We all appreciate it.


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## Amy27 (Aug 20, 2009)

I thought it was time for me to update on Chase's status. There have been so many calcium threads lately that I really want to keep Chase's thread update to help other members and get great advice. 

I took Chase for her monthly visit a few weeks ago. The calcium sludge is still in the bladder. I was disappointed, I was really hoping it would be gone. The vet has recommended uping her Lasix dose, but I really don't want to do that. The vet tells me Lasix can have some bad side effects if taken long term. But she isn't really sure what those are as all the bunny's she gives lasix to have water on their heart and never live long enough to know the side effects. I may not have a choice though. 

I read some of this thread from when I first posted in January. I felt overwhelmed at that time and think there are some suggestions in there that I may have over looked or didn't push enough about to the vet. Chase will be getting blood work at the next appointment so I am going to ask for her glucose level and vitamin d levels to be taken. 

The sludge isn't bothering Chase at all so far, she is still acting like her happy crazy self.


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## billinjax (Aug 20, 2009)

It is interesting that you mention that Chase is behaving normal. I'm currently in the same boat with Jack. He's acting normal but still has quite a bit of sludge. (e.g. the straining and grunting noises have stopped)

I know I've read somewhere that *some* sludge may be normal. Maybe there's just a trick to keeping below a level that impacts the rabbits. How long has Chase been symptom free? (I need to start logging such things in the book I use to record his weight) 

I have a picture of his sludge expression from Monday. (Will need to figure out to how post it) The vet actually took a picture for her file. She placed a quarter next to the lower half to show the size. I think it was 4-6 grams. I think the other vet got much more out when I first brought him in for an emergency but she was still nonetheless impressed with this amount.


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## Amy27 (Aug 20, 2009)

Chase has pretty much been sympton free since January when the last stone was removed. She got sludge again immediatly and we used the lasix and soaking the greens and in a few months (I think) it had cleared up. Then she got sludge again in July that I haven't been able to get rid of. I did sub q's for a while but her sludge didn't go down until she started the lasix. 

My vet has said that some sludge is normal. She stated that she will have rabbits come in for other issues and she will take an x-ray of like the stomach and see a little bit of sludge. With those rabbits she just monitors them. 

I have to admit, I use this thread as my log a lot. I can go back and see when I posted something. It also is helpful to other members who may go through this. It seems with these types of issues it is just trying all different things until you find out what works. I keep all my updates in this thread, it makes it easy for me and other members to read about it. I would love to see you have a thread so I could track what you are trying and what is working. I know there is another member, myheart who has a bunny with kidney stones and her thread is really interesting to read. Her thread discusses what she has tried and how it worked. It would be awesome to see the picture. Is it an acutal picture they printed out for you? Do you have a scanner you could scan it into your computer and then upload it to photobucket to post?


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## Amy27 (Oct 9, 2009)

You guys are not going to believe this!!!!

Ok first, to recap, it has been a year this month when Chase had her first stone removed. She had about 2 months out of that year that she was sludge/stone free. A month ago, with Chase's wierd chewing. I started her on pellets. 

When I took her to the vet today her bladder looked better then it EVER has!!!! The vet couldn't believe it. She kept saying I don't understand what worked, what changed. The vet was very excited. But, only one thing changed. Chase started getting pellets. It had been 4 years or so since Chase had pellets. 

There have been so many threads lately about rabbits and vitamins and minerals. May be it was the vitamin D she was missing. What if the lack of vitamins and/or minerals was the cause of all of this!!! It is amazing me that the thing some vets tell you to take away or decrease when a rabbit has a calcium issue, may actually help. 

I guess only time will tell. But I am so happy and so intriged about it all. 

Chase doesn't have to go to the vet for 2 months. She has never been able to go that long before. The vet said if it still looked good at the next appointment we may be able to go longer between appointments and stop the Lasix. The vet could not believe the difference. She said if she hadn't taken the x-rays herself, she wouldn't believe it. 

I owe so much thanks to all of you. I am 00% positive if it wasn't for the great members on this site, Chase would not be where she is, may be not even here with me. Thank you guys sooo much. I can never thank you guys enough, and neither could Chase.


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## JadeIcing (Oct 9, 2009)

This is the best news!!!!! :bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance:


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## BethM (Oct 9, 2009)

That's AWESOME!!!!!


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## Maureen Las (Oct 10, 2009)

Amy ...
that is wonderful news. inkelepht:
AmI correct that you are feeding Oxbow Organic rabbit?

Iused you and Chase as an example thread for learning about sludge. 

Good work Amy :highfive:Give yourself some credit for this success also !!!

'Hugs"

Maureen


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## Amy27 (Oct 10, 2009)

Thank you guys  

I am trying not to get my hopes up too much but I am just so excited. 

Angieluv, I am feeding Oxbow Organic Rabbit. Both my buns, after not getting pellets for years loved it right away. Well, once they got over the fact I was putting something they were suppose to eat in a bowl. Thank you for suggesting that brand when I was looking for pellets. It has obviously worked out great.


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## Maureen Las (Oct 10, 2009)

I actually used organic rabbit for my dental rabbit Beau as he has the potential for so many issues because he doesn't eat hay. 

I actually think that this is probably an excellent pellet but it won't go anywhere fast until they lower the price of it a little;

When you have time you may want to read the threads by Bangbangs as she is dealing with sludge and stasis issues and you are one of our bladder sludge resource experts now


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## Amy27 (Oct 10, 2009)

I think this is a great pellet too but am afraid that I may soon find that the pet store I go to stops carrying it. There are never any bags missing when I go. I have only found 2 chains that carry it and one is a local chain store. 

When you used the pellets for Beau did you notice any difference after changing? 

I missed that thread with Bangband. Thanks for pointing it out to me. I posted some info on there.


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## myheart (Oct 10, 2009)

Amy, I am so glad that you are having such great results with Chase and the new pellets!! Congrats on beating all of the odds and, hopefully, Chase being stone-free for the rest of her life. :biggrin2:

myheart


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## Maureen Las (Oct 10, 2009)

Beau really likes the pellets... I mixed itwith criitical care to make a gruel for him. 
he doesn't have internal issues but does have an eye and dental issues. 

I changed him back to BBT because I did not want to pay for the Organic Rabbit. 
If I had a rabbit with your kind of issues or anything internal I would get Organic Rabbit despite the cost.


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## tonyshuman (Oct 10, 2009)

Woo-HOO!


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## Amy27 (Jan 15, 2010)

I figured it was time for an update. So much has happened. I took Chase back to the vet the beginning of December. The sludge was still gone. Bad news was in the 2 months she gained 1 lb. She is really overweight. She now weighs 7.5 lbs. I was giving her banana's for potassium, plus craisins twice a day to get her to take the Lasix and tons of water soaked greens. The vet was not happy though. So we agreed to wean Chase off the Lasix since she hadn't had any sludge in a few months and removing the Lasix would allow me to cut out all of the stuff I was feeding her. 

I then took Chase back in January. Even with being off the Lasix which was the only thing that kept the calcium sludge under control, she was sludge free. The vet told me she doesn't think Chase is cured and to not get my hopes up. But how can I not. She has been sludge free for the first time in a year. She will go back in a month and if she is still sludge free I won't have to take her every month. We will move the appointments farther apart until she is getting her regular yearly visits. 

I really hope this long ordeal is over. I am so happy. I know it was the pellets that made the difference. It was the only thing that has changed. 

I will keep this thread updated. I hope it can provide help to other people going through this.


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## Maureen Las (Jan 15, 2010)

I think that it is hopeful that she is sludge free and also it is a good idea to take a break from lasix and see what happens. The weight ..you can do something about that. 
I am wondering if there is a potassium supplement that you could have given her..that would be something to investigate if she goes back on lasix later

Thanks for the update Amy


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## myheart (Jan 16, 2010)

Amy, I am so glad to hear that Chase is still sludge-free. So happy that the treatments worked for Chase. It is a step in a the right direction when you are able to take away meds, and the results are still positive. 

Yay for Chase!!!! :bunnydance:

myheart


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## hln917 (Jan 16, 2010)

Glad to hear Chase is improving! :happyrabbit:


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## tonyshuman (Jan 16, 2010)

So glad she's doing better! I do hope you can take her off the meds, and thus reduce the sugary foods. It's so good to hear that she's doing better. I bet you could use a potassium supplement instead of the banana, though. I have made bunny cookies, based on a recipe I got off the web, with lots of ground flax seeds in them, to try to help with coat condition because of their Omega-3's. I bet you could add ground potassim tablets to the same thing and make super-potassium cookies.


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## Amy27 (Apr 16, 2010)

I took Chase in for her check up today and the sludge is back. Chase is now back on the Lasix. 

I also took Little Bunny in for her yearly and she has bladder sludge now too and is on Lasix. 

I feel like I am doing something wrong. How do both of my rabbits have sludge? What are the odds. I am just so frustrated and sad. I sat in the vets office thinking I can't keep doing this. I am spending so much money. Now they both are going to have to go every month for awhile and it is almost $300 for both of them to have check ups and x-rays. I won't give up because they are both happy and love life. I just don't understand what I am doing wrong. I feel like I should give them up to someone who would care for them better because I obviously am not doing a good job.


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## billinjax (Apr 16, 2010)

It makes me wonder if we have an environmental factor in common. I have experimented with changing water in the past with no luck. I've tried different types of bottled water including distilled water. I wonder what other factors we should be examining? 

I also struggle with the fact that I have read some rabbits will always have some amount of sludge but it will not cause any negative affects. Most of my sludge experience with Jack has involved him being symptom free.


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## Amy27 (Apr 16, 2010)

Bill, I also tried filter water from my tap and purchased filtered water from the store with no luck. I do wonder about environmental factors because neither of my rabbits had sludge before I moved into my condo. I moved in about 2 years before Chase first got her stone. So, I kind of think may be they are not related. 

The only thing that has changed in the last 2 months for Chase is that I started letting her out while I was at work because she is so over weight. Well, she wasn't eating as much of her soaked veggies because she was out and about in the house. So, I am going to have to keep her locked up while I am at work. 

Little Bunny actually had a little sludge on her x-rays a year ago. The vet said it wasn't enough to worry about. That most rabbits have a little sludge but the owners never know because it never causes problems. The amount of sludge in the Little Bunny's bladder has about double in a year. Who knows how long she had it before that. The vet did say that usually if rabbits have sludge it will keep accumulating even if it is at a really slow rate. Which is what she thinks is what happened with the Little Bunny. 

Both of my rabbits were symptom free when I took them today. Chase has always been symptom free except for when she had the stones. 

I really wish there was more research so we knew more about bladder sludge and stones. Like what things in the environment can cause it. But then it always comes back to, even if a rabbit gets to much calcium, a normal rabbit should expell it. So why are ours not? Makes me wonder if there is another factor here that isn't being considered. What is required for a rabbit to expell sludge? We know Vitamin D is required and obviously water consumption. But I bet there are more factors then those two.


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## tonyshuman (Apr 16, 2010)

Hi Amy, a while ago Pipp had me pull an article from a scientific journal on feed, calcium metabolism, and tooth issues. I know tooth issues aren't the deal here, but they're certainly related to calcium metabolism. I am also trying to get this article:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov.ezproxy.library.wisc.edu/pubmed/18165142

I can email you the article. Same goes for you Bill.

I think there's something going on that you and the vets just can't figure out. Rabbits seem to be very complex creatures in terms of how their bodies deal with calcium. Maybe they need more phosphorus, maybe they need a vitamin D supplement, maybe they need a 30 min sun bath every afternoon, it's hard to tell. I know I'll keep looking for an answer.

There's nobody that could be better bunny parents to these guys than you two though, that's for sure. I just think that veterinary science doesn't understand the rabbit kidney well enough yet.


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## Amy27 (Apr 16, 2010)

Bill, you got me thinking now. If you don't mind. Will you list everything you can think of about Jack's environment and what he gets and I will do the same. Lets see if anything is the same. 

My rabbits live in the basement on carpet. Currently get tap water. Get Kleenmama's hay. Oxbow Organic pellets. Veggies are dandilion (lots), cilantro (lots), red leaf (a little), and endive (a little). I buy them from Giant Eagle. They get crasins as treats. One is housed in a NIC cage, the other in the laundry room. I live in a new built condo (sludge started after I moved). Both rabbits get a water bowl and bottle. Veggies are soaked. They don't eat anything like the carpet or a lot of cardboard. I am running out of environmental things lol. They both get 4-5 hours out a day and have full run of 1600 sq. They never go outside. 

Okay that's all I can think of.


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## Amy27 (Apr 16, 2010)

Claire, sorry I was writing while you posted. That is weird you mention teeth though. The Little Bunny does have some spurs but the vet is leaving them alone until they cause a problem. I am off to read that article.

ETA: Just realized I can't read the article. I will PM you my email address and if you could send it to me that would be great. Thank you so much!


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## myheart (Apr 19, 2010)

Amy, I am so sorryI am first seeing this now. I saw you post in the other section and decided to check the Infirmary to see what's up.

I feel so bad for you and your bunnies. I wish there were something I could do for you, especially now that its both bunnies with sludge. I could just cry for you and them. 

I am wondering about the dandelion greens. I opted not to use them for Luna because I saw on one table that they were high in calcium. It seems as though there might be conflicting amounts on different calcium tables.

I know you want to do everything you are able to do for them. I will always support any of your decisions in their care and comfort. {{Sending tons of hugs and support to you and your fur-babies}}

myheart


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## tonyshuman (Apr 19, 2010)

Dandelion greens might be a toss-up, because they are also a diuretic which could make the urine less concentrated, but then again they might make the rest of her dehydrated.

I also read a paper today (that I sent to Amy as well) that stated that adding vitamin D to the diet won't help, and calcium primarily comes from the ingested food--totally opposite to what we've been hearing lately. This paper was written in 2008 and seems to be pretty good, although it's a review of other papers that are a bit older, so maybe it's not the most current opinion of the field. I'm all sorts of confused right now.


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## Amy27 (Apr 19, 2010)

Thanks Janet. You are so sweet. It means a lot to me and the buns. 

I stopped feeding dandilion greens for awhile due to their calcium content. But then I felt that the calcium wasn't related to the diet I started feeding them again. Now that I think about it I started feeding it again in October 2009 about the time I started them on pellets. May be that is why Little Bunny's sludge has increased so much. 

I got that paper thanks Claire. I haven't read it yet. I plan to take both papers you sent me to the vets when I go in a month and see what she thinks. 

When I had mentioned vitamin D to the vet, she really didn't think it had and impact. She tried to explain why but I really didn't understand. It was something about how humans need vitamin D to process calcium. She stated that rabbits don't. However, we still don't want the rabbits to be lacking in vitamins, she just didn't think it would help. 

So lets say calcium comes form ingested food. What causes some rabbits to take that food and calcium and never have stones or sludge and some due. I can see how it would be diet related if it was an excess amount. 

I am curious about the papers now and am going to go read them. Not sure if they will make much sense to me. I have learned way more about this subject then I ever wanted to lol.


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## Amy27 (Apr 19, 2010)

Okay so reading the article it said that most dietary calcium is absorbed in the intestine, and the excess is excreted in the urine. 

So does that mean a rabbit who has bladder stones or sludge, the calcium has to be excess? Otherwise it would never make it to the bladder? 

Reading about the vitamin D. I could be reading it or misunderstanding it but it looks like a rabbit that is deficient in vitamin D had no change in intestinal absorption of calcium but urinary excretion of calcium and phosphoris was decreased. So may be vitamin D is only beneficial for urinary excertion? Am I reading that right? (I read that on page 143 last paragraph) 

I just want to post this for other people lol I was excited about this sentence. When rabbits are fed a high-calcium diet, urinary calcium excertion increases but urine volume remains constant, increasing the liklihood of crystal aggregation and stone formation. 
That would be why the Lasix works for my rabbits. Because it is increasing their urine volume. I have just never heard it put like that and it makes so much sense. 

Another part I wanted to share for people who don't have the article.
The unusual calcium metabolism of rabbits makes it essential to maintain a diet that is well balanced, with appropriate calcium concentration, calcium-to-phosphorus ratio, and vitamin D content. 

For those that can figure out how much calcium you are giving your rabbit, it states a dietary calcium level of 0.22% supports normal growth, but 0.35% to 0.4% calcium is required for optimal bone calcification and growth rates in young rabbits. Okay then farther down in the article it states 0.6%-1.0% of calcium is the ideal diet for rabbits and should have a calcium-to-phosphorus ratio of 1:1 to 2:1.

Okay so my Organic Oxbow contains 0.60%-0.90% of calcium and 0.30% of phosphorus. However that doesn't really tell me how much to feed them lol. What serving size is that based on. I think I must not be understanding what the percentages mean. 

It also said that many vegetables are high in calcium, they often contain calcium oxalate which is not metabolized by rabbits, and thus, cannot contribute to urine sludge. 
So I wonder if dandilion contains both?? 

Okay my head is spinning. This is great information Claire. Thanks again for sending it to me.


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## Amy27 (Apr 19, 2010)

Raw Vegetable Oxalate content milligrams per 100 gram serving 
Spinach 750 
Beet greens 610 
Okra 146 
Parsley 100 
Leeks 89 
Collard greens 74 

These are somethings that contain the calcium oxalate. None of them are things I feed except carrots occasinally. So I am figuring the veggies I feed, cilantro, dandelion, red leaf, and endive contain calcium which would all be absorbed. May be I am over feeding calcium. I am going to stop feeding the dandelion. All the other greens I feed are low in calcium and plus they get these pellets. I am going to have some unhappy buns!

ETA: Just found an article that said dandedlions do contain oxalate calcium. Now I am really confused. 

Oxalate-rich foods include rhubarb, spinach, strawberries, chocolate, nuts, beets, wheat bran, blackberries, blueberries, wheat germ, whole wheat products, tangerines, beet greens, dandelion greens, olives, leeks, kale, concord grapes, figs, carrots, celery, soy sauce, marmalade, grits and pretzels.


ETA-Again-You guys are going to kill me. 

Okay so the percentages above are daily value percentages right? What if you don't feed it daily lol. I don't get this. Anyway 55g of dandelion contains 10% DV. 1 ounce contains 5% DV and 52.4 mg. 100 grams which equals 0.435 cups is 19% and 187mg. OMG I was feeding like several cups a day. That is a lot on top of the other veggies and pellets. 
While I am at it I will do some other veggies. 

Cilantro 1/4 cup 4g has 2.7 mg 0% DV. 

Read leaf 1 outer leaf 17g 5.6 mg 1% DV

Endive 1/2 cup chopped 25g 13 mg 1% DV

Parsley 1 cup 60g 82.8 mg 8%Dv

Those are all for raw veggies and the figures are just for calcium.


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## tazzychan (Apr 20, 2010)

Hi Everyone

I was looking for help on this forum a while ago when my bunny Tazzy was having Bladder Sludge and bladder stone issues and you were all such a great help I wanted to update you all on her condition. Tazzy is currently bladder stone and sludge free for the past six months so I thought I might let you guys know what worked for us so far.

Tazzy started out with bladder sludge first and she spent two days in the hospital being given Sub-Q fluids and antibiotics. We reduced her pellets (timothy hay based) to one small scoop full in the day and one in the evening. I feed her unlimited amounts of hay consisting of Orchard Grass, timothy hay,Oat hay and botantical hay. I also gave her more greens such as parsley which she loves and I heard that Dandelion greens had a diuretic effect which I read was good at flushing out the sludge. She was doing great on this diet for the next 3 months and I thought our nasty bladder sludge days were over. Then one day I found her passing blood in her urine and off to the vet we went to check it out. Sure enough all of her bladder sludge was gone but now she had developed a large bladder stone. After having the bladder stone removed I decided to give Tazzy's diet another make-over.

Whenever Tazzy urinated it use to always leave a white chalky residue after it dried which led me to believe that she was having too much calcium in her diet. I later learned that parsely and Dandelion greens both have high calcium contents so I decided to elminate both of those from her diet. I did research on what vegetables had lower calcium contents and started to feed her a mixture of those greens which included cilantro, bok choy, green leaf lettuce, romaine lettuce and sometimes peppers. She also gets unlimited hay which basically includes a variety of three to four different types of hay excluding Alfalfa hay which is high in calcium. I also stopped feeding her any pellets because my vet says that rabbits can do very well on just greens and hay and Tazzy has actually gained weight since being on this new diet. I always soak her greens in a nice big bowl of water before giving them to her to increase their water content and eatting so much hay really makes her thirsty because she drinks a lot after she eats her hay. One additional thing my vet recommended was giving her potassium citrate 0.45cc twice a day which helps reduce the adsorption of calcium, the vet said that this approach is a little controversial but it seems to work. I usually give it to her with a little bit of banana and she loves it. Tazzy just had an X-ray done six months after her bladder stone was removed and the vet saw no signs of bladder sludge or stones which is great news.

If anyone has any new diet suggestions I would love to hear them.

Take Care
Gloria


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## tonyshuman (Apr 20, 2010)

Whew give me some time to catch up! LOL

Gloria, I have heard of other buns with potassium added to their diet to combat sludge--the member's name is billnjax I think...


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## tonyshuman (Apr 20, 2010)

_*Amy27 wrote: *Okay so reading the article it said that most dietary calcium is absorbed in the intestine, and the excess is excreted in the urine. 

So does that mean a rabbit who has bladder stones or sludge, the calcium has to be excess? Otherwise it would never make it to the bladder? _ 

[line]I don't think so. Some bunnies whose diets are low in calcium still have sludge because they take calcium away from the bones. That is Metabolic Bone Disease. I think. However the article doesn't talk a lot about MBD.
[line]
_Reading about the vitamin D. I could be reading it or misunderstanding it but it looks like a rabbit that is deficient in vitamin D had no change in intestinal absorption of calcium but urinary excretion of calcium and phosphoris was decreased. So may be vitamin D is only beneficial for urinary excertion? Am I reading that right? (I read that on page 143 last paragraph) _

[line]I think it means that vitamin D is important for telling a rabbit's body how much calcium to have in the blood. On pg 143, it says "The hormone is also necessary for osteoclastic bone resorption and mobilization of calcium from bone, and increases renal tubular reabsorption of calcium and phosphorus." So, vitamin D tells the body whether to break down bones or build them up in order to get more calcium for what it needs. It also decreases the amount of calcium and phosphorus in the urine. That's why with low vitamin D, a lot of calcium and phosphorus was excreted. Calcium comes from two sources: food and bone, and is eliminated by making bone and being eliminated via the urine. Vitamin D increases plasma Ca by reabsorbing bones and causing the kidneys to not excrete as much calcium. I think eventually the body has all this plasma Ca and it needs to put it somewhere, though, so it goes into the bones. That's a guess though.

This page has a good picture and some explanations:
http://www.mfi.ku.dk/ppaulev/chapter30/kap30.htm
[line]
_For those that can figure out how much calcium you are giving your rabbit, it states a dietary calcium level of 0.22% supports normal growth, but 0.35% to 0.4% calcium is required for optimal bone calcification and growth rates in young rabbits. Okay then farther down in the article it states 0.6%-1.0% of calcium is the ideal diet for rabbits and should have a calcium-to-phosphorus ratio of 1:1 to 2:1._

[line]I'm confused to why they change their recommendations: why not give only 0.22% calcium, since that's about all they need? Maybe it has to do with how much calcium from the feed is absorbed? Like only 13 to 1/5 of calcium in the food is absorbed?
[line]


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## tonyshuman (Apr 20, 2010)

I thought we were supposed to avoid oxalates but I don't remember why. Something else to hunt down...
[line]
_Okay so the percentages above are daily value percentages right? What if you don't feed it daily lol. I don't get this. Anyway 55g of dandelion contains 10% DV. 1 ounce contains 5% DV and 52.4 mg. 100 grams which equals 0.435 cups is 19% and 187mg. OMG I was feeding like several cups a day. That is a lot on top of the other veggies and pellets. 
While I am at it I will do some other veggies. 

Cilantro 1/4 cup 4g has 2.7 mg 0% DV. 

Read leaf 1 outer leaf 17g 5.6 mg 1% DV

Endive 1/2 cup chopped 25g 13 mg 1% DV

Parsley 1 cup 60g 82.8 mg 8%Dv

Those are all for raw veggies and the figures are just for calcium. _ 

[line]This is interesting, but where do you get what the daily requirement for calcium is in mg? And when you say it is x% DV, is that DV for bunnies or people?


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## tonyshuman (Apr 20, 2010)

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=56821&forum_id=48&highlight=oxalate

This says that calcium oxalate is something you do want, and if you feed veggies high in calcium but low in oxalate that's bad, like the cruciferous veggies (broccoli and related).

also: 
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=54750&forum_id=48&highlight=oxalate

And AHA on that first link it says that the daily requirement for bunnies for calcium is 5-10g/kg, so if your bunny is 1 kilo (2.something lbs), they need 5-10g of Ca daily.


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## Amy27 (Apr 20, 2010)

Gloria thanks for sharing your story. I am curious where you got your potassium that you give Tazzy. I may have to look into that. I try to give my buns banana's for potassium but Little Bunny still doesn't like them. 

Claire, lol once I get started reading and researching I can't stop. I learned a lot of great information though. I really appreciate you sharing that article with me. 

In regard to metabolic bone disease, my vet has assured my that neither of my rabbits have it. She stated if they did, she would see in on the x-rays that they do of the bladder. On the x-rays you can see their spine and several other bones. I don't know much about metabolic bone disease to know if x-ray is the way to diagnosis. I may have to research that. Lab tests have also come back normal. Not sure if they would show anything if a rabbit had metabolic bone disease. 

When I say DV it is DV for humans. It was on a nutritional site for humans. So I am not sure if it really helps me. I really wish someone would publish something about calcium content of veggies for rabbits and how much they should get. That would make things soooo much easier. 

I was also confused about the changes of % of calcium for a rabbit. I kept reading it over and over again thinking I was missing something. 

Thanks Claire for posting how much calcium a rabbit should get a day. But how do you figure in their pellets when pellets go by a percentage not g. 

This really wouldn't be so hard if someone would just do all the conversions and post how much calcium a rabbit needs and what to feed them. lol 

For now, I have stopped feeding dandelion. I am still going to continue to give pellets as I feel they will provide vitamins that I may be missing when feeding veggies and hay. But I will only feed 1 ounce a few times a week.


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## tazzychan (Apr 20, 2010)

Hey Amy

I get the potassium citrate from my vet, she usually has to order it special for me


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## Amy27 (Apr 20, 2010)

Thanks Gloria. I will have to ask my vet about that when we go in a month.


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## tonyshuman (Apr 21, 2010)

Well, I found this site, and it seems that for adult humans ~1g (1000mg) of Ca is needed a day. That's a lot less than bunnies, especially on a per kilo basis: the typical estimate of adult human body weight is 70-75kg. I'll look for info on our veggies in terms of calcium content in mg.


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## tonyshuman (Apr 21, 2010)

I am beginning to wonder if that "All about rabbit diets" reference means that the feed you give bunnies should have 5-10g of Ca per kg of food, not that a bunny needs 5-10 g of Ca per kg of rabbit body weight.


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## tonyshuman (Apr 21, 2010)

Um wow, check out this reference:
http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-5/calcium.html

I'll copy and paste the relevant parts:
"However the minimum daily requirement for calcium of a medium sized rabbit is about 510 milligrams. This amount of calcium is contained in less than two ounces of commercial pellets or 1 cup of turnip greens." 

510 mg=0.51g

Edit: Blech they list calcium content in order of increasing Ca, making it hard to find your food. I will re-do the list, alphabetical by veggie.
Calcium Content of Raw Vegetables 
10 mg Alfalfa sprouts 
32 mg Arugula 
28 mg Asparagus 
46 mg Beet greens 
82 mg Borage 
42 mg Broccoli 
32 mg Cabbage 
30 mg Carrots 
28 mg Cauliflower 
68 mg Celeriac 
44 mg Celery 
18 mg Chard, Swiss 
180 mg Chicory greens 
74 mg Chinese cabbage 
218 mg Collards 
16 mg Coriander (cilantro) 
40 mg Cress, garden 
103 mg Dandelion greens 
59 mg Dock 
30 mg Egglant 
26 mg Endive 
21 mg Jerusalem artichoke 
94 mg Kale 
137 mg Kale, Scotch 
34 mg Kohlrabi 
309 mg Lambsquarter 
38 mg Lettuce, looseleaf 
20 mg Lettuce, Romaine (per 100g serving) 
58 mg Mustard greens 
315 mg Mustard spinach 
32 mg New Zealand spinach 
82 mg Okra 
78 mg Parsley 
62 mg Peas, edible pod 
6 mg Peppers, sweet 
24 mg Pumpkin 
15 mg Pumpkin leaves 
28 mg Purslane 
19 mg Radish seed sprouts 
28 mg Radishes 
65 mg Rutabagas 
56 mg Spinach 
26 mg Squash, summer 
20 mg Squash, zucchini 
105 mg Turnip greens 
39 mg Turnips 
40 mg Watercress 
per 1 cup serving, unless otherwise noted 

I haven't heard of all these veggies, and I know some bunnies won't eat some of them (squash for instance).


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## tonyshuman (Apr 21, 2010)

And for pellet, to determine how much is in a certain serving, do this calculation:
amount of serving in g * (percentage Ca written on bag, in this case 0.6-0.8%)*10=amount of Ca in that serving in mg

To start with serving amount in oz, which may vary because oz are sometimes used as a measure of volume (ie if you use a tablespoon to measure or a measuring cup), and sometimes used as a measure of weight (if you use a scale to measure). I don't know what 2 oz (volume) of pellets weighs--it might be 2 oz (weight), it might not be.
anyway:
amount in oz (weight)*28.3*(percentage of Ca in food)*10=amount of Ca in serving in mg

28.3 is a conversion factor.
So if 2 oz of pellets weighs 2 oz, and it's oxbow organic with avg Ca content of 0.75% (between 0.6-0.9% is what's written on the bag) that would be
2*28.3*(0.75)*10=424.5mg

Wow that means they get almost all the Ca they need from 2 oz of pellets.


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## Amy27 (May 2, 2010)

Claire, I am sorry I didn't respond earlier. I missed that the thread was updated. 

I can't thank you enough for doing those calculations for me. I would have never figured any of that out on my own. I really really appreciate it. I have never had so much useful information to go off from. I can't thank you enough. 

So that is 2 oz of pellets a day correct? I give about 1 oz 3 times a week. But with their veggies they get daily. I think that would make up the difference. 

I just wanted to share this semi success. People who have followed Chase know that I have tried everything to get her to drink water. I have tried every flavor and every type of water container, I have tried everything. Well tonight, I was going to give Chase a piece of banana for the potassium that she needs due to the Lasix. I decided I would try to mash the banana up and add a little water. Probably only about a teaspoon of water. She drank/ate about half of it. I was so excited. I am thinking if I give it to her daily, she will learn to like it more. Then I can decrease the amount of banana and increase the amount of water. I am hoping the end result will be that I can flavor a whole bowl of water with banana and get her to drink it. Does anyone know any banana flavor stuff I can use without having to mash and mix a real banana in it? 

Also, Little Bunny will not eat bananas. I have tried everything. Lasix really rids the body of potassium so I would like to know she is getting some. I won't give them broccoli or rasins due to a bad gas attack I had with Chase. Is there potassium in pellets. I read the bag and it didn't say anything about it. Any other ideas on what I could give her that is low in calcium but high in potassium? I am hoping Little Bunny will only be on the Lasix for a month. Her case was milder so I am hoping it will be gone and then I am not going to give her the Lasix anymore so I am not to worried about it. I don't think one month will hurt her if I can't find something high in potassium she will eat.


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## tonyshuman (May 2, 2010)

I have bought imitation banana flavoring in the spice aisle before, that might work! Sounds like you're doing some classical conditioning there--and it should work, if you go slowly. 

I bet they get enough calcium, I'm just worried about getting too much. I think you give a good amount of pellets. I am wondering if the rest of us should give less, especially with the veggies many of us like to feed.

I will have to look into the potassium thing. I know some people give their bunnies potassium citrate, which I would think you can probably buy at the human pharmacy vitamin aisle, but you'd have to be really careful about the dose...


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## Amy27 (May 3, 2010)

Thanks Claire. I will check out the spice aisle tomorrow and see what I can find. I am also going to call the vet to see if they have banana flavors they use when they compound meds. I will ask them about the potassium when I call too. 

I agree with you that I think it is good for everyone should look at how much calcium they are giving their bun. I know a lot of people on here feed at least 2 oz of pellets a day plus veggies.


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## tonyshuman (May 3, 2010)

I just had my bunnies in for their annual today and the vet called saying his calcium was a bit high. She linked me to this info:
http://www.chincare.com/HealthLifestyle/DentalCalC.htm
Look under the heading "Vitamin C Articles"--there is a link to a site at chimere.org. That's what she told me to look for, but that site is no longer up. Luckily, the chinchilla website also has a copy of the info from the broken site there as a word document. It lists the calcium and vitamin C content of many veggies, and also says which have oxalates.

I will definitely be taking a look at my bunnies' daily calcium rations! Tony is edging toward middle age, so I don't want to put stress on his kidneys and urinary tract.


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## Amy27 (May 4, 2010)

I will have to take a look at that site. I need to print all this off for my vet. 

I am just curious, was the calcium level high in the urine or from a blood test?


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## tonyshuman (May 5, 2010)

Blood test. It was 16, they said, and the desired range is 4-12. This is in alignment with what Medirabbit says (5.5-12.5 for total Ca++ in mg/dl http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Hematology/blood_chemistry.htm )


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## Amy27 (May 22, 2010)

I took the bunnies back for their one month check up. 

Little Bunny has been drinking as much in one week as she usually does in a whole month. So I was pretty sure her sludge would be gone. But its not. The vet wants me to give sub q fluids. 100-150 ml everyday for 2 weeks and then every other day for two weeks and then I take her back in. I tried to give the sub q fluids tonight and failed miserably. I could get a good tent in her skin because she was tightening her skin or it just wasn't loose. I had problems even grabbing any skin. Since I couldn't get a good tent I couldn't get the needle in right. I either didn't get the needle in or it would go throw both sides. I finally gave up. I felt so bad for her but she was so good. She never moved or jumped when I poked her, even when I tried to move the needle around to get it in the right spot. I will try again tomorrow. The vet tech I use to have come help me moved. So I really don't want to call her as she doesn't live as close anymore but I may have too. 

The good news is Chase's sludge decreased a lot. We cut the Lasix meds in half from what she was getting. We are hoping that will maintain her bladder sludge to what it is. She will probably have to be on it for the rest of her life. 

Please send Little Bunny and I some good vibes that we can get this sub q fluid down. I was trying between her shoulder blades but may try lower tomorrow to see if I can get more skin to tent. She is also so fluffy around her shoulder blades, I can't really see if the needle is in.


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## NorthernAutumn (May 22, 2010)

I am very happy for Chase's good news, Amy  That's wonderful!

I have no injection experience whatsoever, but would it be possible to give da Little Bunny a backrub/noserub before doing the subq? Maybe help her relax a bit?

I am sorry that she is going through this as well... sending you and your girls good vibes for healing ray:

P.S.: Can't believe almost a whole year has gone by since I last wrote in this thread! I just went back and re-read everything... it all seems like just yesterday... I have kept you guys in my thoughts for a long time though...:hug:


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## Amy27 (May 23, 2010)

I try to talk to her in a nice calm voice and give her nose rubs before and during when I can spare a free hand. Even though she behaves well, I can tell she is really upset. Her eyes get real big and she just looked at me the whole time like why and the heck are you doing this to me. I tried to cover her eyes up once because her staring at me with those big sad eyes weren't helping but she didn't like it so I dealt with the stares. 

Tomorrow I am going to go to the store and get some cranberry juice and see if I can flavor a bowl of water and get her to drink more that way. But she is already drinking so much.


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## NorthernAutumn (May 23, 2010)

:hug: I wish we had someone there in Ohio to help you... Is there a local HRS you can hit up for an extra pair of hands?

If cranberry doesn't go down the hatch easily, is there another favourite fruit? A bit of vanilla sometimes works too (not sure if she is keen on vanilla, though?)

(Was just thinking.... maybe boil some carrots in a pot of water, and let the water cool? Then try? Carroty water might be OK... Just throwing this out there.)
:hug: We're pulling for you both up here! Lots of vibes! ray:


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## Amy27 (May 23, 2010)

Ohhh that carrot idea is great. Little Bunny is very very picky. I can't get her to eat any fruit. Besides greens, pellets, and hay, she only eats carrots and crasins as treats. I will have to try the carrot thing. I think I will try that now lol. I tried some banana flavoring I got for Chase and she ran from the bowl and wouldn't go near it. 

Thanks for the positive vibes. I am glad to see you back Autumn!


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## Maureen Las (May 23, 2010)

Amy I don't know if it would help but do you have the sub q youtube videos.I know that it is difficult to do if the rabbit is tensing up. 
let me know if you have the videos.. if not I'll post them.


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## Amy27 (May 23, 2010)

I do have the videos and I watched it again tonight. One thing I didn't like was they had the rabbits head covered with a towel, so I couldn't really see how far down from the head she was putting the needle. I wonder if I am trying to close to the shoulder blades and would do better moving down a little. It kind of scares me to move down though because you can feel the spine there. For some reason it makes me uncomfortable to go down far enough that you can feel their spine. With Chase, we always went inbetween the shoulder blades up close to her head.


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## NorthernAutumn (May 23, 2010)

I hope the carrot water works!
I bet you could also float some craisins in some water to make craisin-water too... 

I can take a look around for Ohio members, if you like? There's got to be somebody...

(Missed you and your crew, Amy... It's been a long time! I am very happy to be back here:hug


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## Amy27 (May 23, 2010)

I have some craisin water in there. We will see if that works. I think I may be overwhelming the Little Bunny. I have craisin water and banana water in there plus the sub q's I tried to give her a few hours ago. I did make the carrot water and it does smell like carrots. I think I will wait until tomorrow morning. 

One of the issues with Little Bunny is she has always only drank out of one water bottle. She ignores all the other water bowls and bottles. I don't want to flavor her favorite bottle as I am afraid it would make her stop drinking it. So it may not be that she hates the flavors I am giving her, it just might be that it isn't in her favorite water bottle. 

If there is an Ohio member that would be willing to help that would be great. I posted about my failure at sub q's on Facebook. The vet tech is a Facebook friend and I am hoping she will read it and offer to come over to help even if it is just once a week. I just feel bad asking because she doesn't live as close. 

I have missed you and your crew too! Are you all done with your school work?


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## NorthernAutumn (May 23, 2010)

Can you post a picture of her waterbottle? Could we find another identical one for her?

I will see if I can dredge up some Ohio members to give you a hand.

Yup, done school! I will PM you, rather than keep on highjacking your thread


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## tonyshuman (May 23, 2010)

You could also buy some carrot juice from Whole Foods or something and dilute it a lot, or add some fake banana flavoring from the spice aisle.


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## Amy27 (May 23, 2010)

Why didn't I think of that? You are alwasy so full of good ideas. 
This is her current water bottle that she loves. I think I got it from Petsmart or may be Pet Supplies Plus. I will have to look tomorrow. 









However, she has this bottle too which looks almost the same! May be there is a difference I can't see.


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## NorthernAutumn (May 23, 2010)

DUH, Amy! of COURSE they're different 

Da Little Bunneh girl has a thing for polka-dots 

I believe the company is "All Living Things", sold exclusively through PetSmart. Here's a link: http://deals.coupon-land.com/petsmart/2752722/all-living-things-water-bottles-for-small-animals.html

ETA: LOL! Here it is: http://www.petsmart.com/family/index.jsp?categoryId=2769314&fbx=0

 Hope that works!


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## Amy27 (May 23, 2010)

Wow, you are soooo good. I guess I am making a Petsmart trip tomorrow. lol I am sure there is some difference that I would know nothing about but Little Bunny knows it and that is what matters. 

Claire, I work next to a Whole Foods so if the boiled carrots don't work, I will go there on Monday and get some carrot juice. Thanks for the great idea. 

Is it bad that I am thinking if I find something she will drink more I can ignore the vets advice and not give sub q's? I hate doing this to her. And in my nonprofessional opinion, I think she is drinking enough. If you look at the water bottle in her pic, she drank that much since Wed plus getting greens 2 times a day soaked in water. Usually her water bottle would only be down about a half an inch by now.


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## Amy27 (May 25, 2010)

Sub q fluids were a little more successful tonight. I found that the Little Bunny does better on my lap then in a carrier like Chase did. Only bad part is she feels more comfortable being on my chest under my chin. And I had her on my lap and was upcapping the needle and she just jumped up to my chest and left some really nice scratch marks. It would be so nice to have an extra pair of hands. Trying to hold her, the needle because she keeps shifting, and squeezing the bag is not easy. Hopefully we will get this down though. 

I do have a question. She kept shifting and the needle would move a little bit. I kept checking the bag to make sure fluids were still flowing. But I was worried about the needle going deeper then the subcutanous layer of skin. If I give it deeper will it hurt her. I know this is crazy but I kept thinking I hope I am not putting this in your liver or something crazy. She is so fluffy that it is hard to see the needle. I thought about shaving a little patch on her so I could see everything better but I don't think she would be happy with me and I worry about cutting her skin. She ate a treat after so I hope that where ever the fluids went, it isn't bothering her.


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## Maureen Las (May 25, 2010)

The needle is probably just moving around in the layer between the skin and the muscle; if the fluids are flowing I would not worry about it;it is not going into an organ of her body.


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## Amy27 (May 25, 2010)

Thank you so much Maureen. I feel a lot better now. I just don't trust myself when it comes to this stuff.


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## billinjax (Jun 9, 2010)

Hello Amy and everyone else with bladder sludge problems... 

I kind of fell off the radar for awhile. We've had quite a bit of drama here fighting the bladder sludge problem at home.

I saw someone posted about the Potassium Citrate and mentioned my rabbit Jack. Yes, he is 1700 grams and is on .85cc twice per day mixed with banana. I think that's about double than what I saw mentioned above. Not sure why. Jack is a pretty small rabbit from my perspective. 1700 grams is less than four pounds.

I don't have anything to report yet with respect to the success or failure. I started the Potassium Citrate in April but stopped after I thought he was having a seizure one morning. I have been back on since 5/7 and the only thing that happened was an abnormal amount of thick sludge in the litter box all last week. My understanding is that the Potassium Citrate should bond with the excess calcium BEFORE it gets to the bladder. However, I'm going to be patient, hope that was just the last big round being expelled, and go in for an x-ray later this month. With any luck, we'll have less sludge.

FYI - we're still on 35cc of fluids every other day. I saw Amy's struggles with the fluids. I had a terrible time at first too. I may be lucky in that Jack doesn't struggle at all anymore but the process has become very simple after doing this every week for 9 months. I sit on the floor with my legs crossed and put Jack on the floor in the middle. He will put his head under my leg while I insert the needle sometimes. I don't use any towels or anything to cover him. I just have everything ready before I start, including the syringe needle inside of the butterfly needle's plastic opening. One hint - Unscrew and remove the cap on this end of the opening. The vet tech taught me to punch through the cap but I had problems with the plastic clogging up the needle in the syringe. I also learned how to buy all of these supplies in bulk to save money. http://www.allegromedical.com/ It took some time to figure out the right part numbers so that I was using EXACTLY what the vet was selling me. But, I figured it out and this has helped. Back the process: once you find the right technique (which is hard to describe) for placement of the smaller butterfly needle, everything will fall into place.

Good luck with the fluids. I imagine it's slightly different for every rabbit.

I will let you know if we have success with the potassium citrate at the dosage mentioned.


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## Amy27 (Jul 2, 2010)

Bill, How is Jack doing? Did you go for the x-ray yet? I am curious to see if you have any results using the potassium citrate. 

I am glad Jack is good when giving the fluids. I talked to my vet and we increased Little Bunny's daily Lasix amount and so I stopped giving the fluids. Increasing the Lasix made her drink even more. She is so small and so hairy that I had such a hard time with the needle. I couldn't see where it was at. 

Autumn, I just have to tell you, after you located where those water bottles are sold I went and got another one. Little Bunny will now only drink out of the new one. Of course, it has circles on it. She won't drink out of her old one anymore. Rabbits are so weird!! 

Anyway, I wanted to post an update as I took both bunnies back to the vet today. Chase is still calcium free and we lowered her lasix dose to 1/2 pill once a day. The vet said if that keeps her bladder clear she will stay on that dose for the rest of her life. 

Little Bunny's calcium decreased a little bit. I am going to continue the lasix with her for another month and then she will have another x-ray. Little Bunny had a little sludge like 2 years ago but it wasn't enough the vet wanted to do anything about it. The vet said if we can get the sludge down to that amount again, she won't worry about it and I can stop the Lasix. Little Bunny had blood work done to make sure her electrolytes were okay and they were all good. 

I was also happy that neither of them gained any weight. I hide their meds in crasins so they have been getting a lot of craisins. Chase is alreadt very over weight and Little Bunny is a little on the heavy side so I don't want either of them to gain anymore.


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## tonyshuman (Jul 6, 2010)

Glad to hear things are going well with your two!


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## myheart (Jul 6, 2010)

Congrats on a pretty good check-up for your bunners. It is a little sigh of relief when things start looking good, isn't it?

myheart


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