# (RIP) UPDATE: Luna has stones in both kidneys



## myheart (Jan 13, 2009)

I never thought I would be posting in this section about any of the bunners...

This past week/weekend have been horrible for Luna. She slowly went into stasis, so I did all of the usual stuff including pedialyte, pumpkin, wet veggies, and bene-bac. She just was not snapping out of it as easily this time, so I started adding Critical Care and juices (cranberry and pineapple) to keep her hydrated and fed. Her poor little tummy was gurgling something aweful from being gassy and hungry.

Saturday was the worst night. I had a terrible fear I was going to lose my little girl, but she was a trooper and took her Critical Care and juices, and started snapping out of it later that evening.

Sunday night she ate finally ate most of her veggies, and last night she ate everything I gave her!!! Luna was much perkier this morning and actually looking for her morning berries. 

I had a vet appointment set for her for today since last week, and although I knew it would be a bit dangerous traveling in such bitter temps, I figured it would be best to make sure there was nothing else going on with her to trigger this longer-than-usual stasis. I also knew that if Randy were to read this, he would still say that evenif Luna were eating normally, she still wouldn't be "gut ready" and out of the woods completely.

I told the vet every thing that happened during her stasis, and agreed toan x-ray of her abdomin. He came back saying that Luna has kidney stones in both kidneys that have a calcium composition, according to the crystals in her urine. He said that if the stones were in the bladder, there would not be a problem with doing a surgery to remove them. The kidneys are a different story.... Surgery is not an option because there is too much that could go wrong.

Luna now has to be on a calcium restricted diet in the hopes that they will dissolve or pass on their ownwith the hopes that none of them cause blockage to the bladder. The vet said that was probably the reason for her stasis lasting so long... she was in pain from trying to pass a stone. So, Luna will not be allowed to have pellets or alfalfa hay. I will be able to give her lots of wet leafy greens,haynot containing any alfalfa,and some cranberry juice to help curb any UTI that could develop from the stones. The only green he really blacklisted was spinach. I asked about kale, but he said that should be fine. I also managed to get my hands on a bale of blue-grass hay (I hope that will be okay for her(?)).

Just wondering if anyone else has delt with kidney stones in their bunner, what diet changes they made, and whether or not the stones resolved themselves. 

myheart


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## TreasuredFriend (Jan 13, 2009)

dear J, I am so sad to hear about Luna's stones. I would preventably eliminate any high calcium greens, veggies, fruits - and stick with all low-calcium items. I shall look in the books by Kathy R. Smith (and the Special Needs' book) for more info in case a PM on additional pampering or mealtime items helps.
Oh little Luna girl, your mom is doing everything she can :kiss:... 

Greens at the top of Sylvia's list were romaine, green and red leaf, endive, chard, sweet yellow and green peppers, cilantro. Perhaps some of this will help. No parsley. (No carb items like cereal. Definitely no alfalfa). I'd be wondering on Kale, as that is a higher calcium green. * Beautiful blue Luna, and her snugglemates. *


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## TreasuredFriend (Jan 13, 2009)

Here's another viewpoint (where kale is not considered a watch-list item):

http://www.mahouserabbit.org/newsletter/calcium.asp

another article:

http://www.rabbitwelfare.co.uk/resources/content/info-sheets/calcium.htm


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## Maureen Las (Jan 13, 2009)

I think that we should try to get get Randy invovled inthis.... 

I"m going to change the title of your thread if you don't mind. 

I am presently trying to find something re. kidney stones but I'm coming up with bladder stones. 

I did have experience with a guinea pig who had one large bladder stone removed and made a rapid and excellent recovery. 

According to the first article it is difficult to get rid of them with out surgery and if they are in the kidney and not the bladder that definitely is difficult,

http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-5/bladder-disease.html
http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-5/calcium.html
http://homepage.mac.com/mattocks/morfz/calcium.html
I'll keep on adding info asI come across it. I'm so sorry about Luna


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## naturestee (Jan 13, 2009)

My poor girl.

I thought I remembered dandelion being recommended for kidney issues. A quick Google search turned up more stuff on it detoxifying the liver but it is thought to be a diuretic- increases urine flow. I know Piggly Wiggly often has good fresh stuff, so if you can find some it would be a good addition to Luna's veggie salad. Maybe next time you talk to the vet, you could ask if he recommends anything like that in pill form? You could could crush a pill and sprinkle it on her wet veggies.

And just for some more basic info on kidney stones, there's a lot of stuff here:

http://www.kidney.org/

There's some info in the Urinary Problems library article too:

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=12052&forum_id=10

Unfortunately the herbal remedy article linkfrom Friends of Rabbits isn't working. I just emailed them to see if they can send me a copy.

:hug:


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## Maureen Las (Jan 13, 2009)

here is a good article in medi-rabbit


http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Uro_gen_diseases/Mech_diseases/Urolithiasis.pdf


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## tonyshuman (Jan 13, 2009)

Poor Princess Luna. Naturestee's recommendation of dandelion greens sounds right on spot, as do the lists of low-calcium veggies already posted. Many "natural" grocery stores sell dandelion greens--here the Whole Foods and Sentry Metcalfe do (Copps/Roundy's and Cub Foods do not). I'll be thinking of you both...


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## naturestee (Jan 13, 2009)

Oh, FYI: Luna had bloodwork done when I first got her (early November 07) and when she was spayed (February? Month before you adopted her). All levels were normal then. I don't know if the vet would want to do bloodwork again to see if there is kidney damage, or do stones not do enough to see in the bloodwork?


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## Amy27 (Jan 13, 2009)

I have one rabbit that had a huge bladder stone removed in October and my other bun has sludge. I am working to get the sludge moving through on it's own. Here are some websites I used that tell what the calcium content is of hay and veggies. 

http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-5/calcium.html

http://www.shady-acres.com/susan/Calcium-Phosphorus.shtml

Ok several of the websites I used the webpage is no longer available. I just searched calcium content of veggies and hay. A lot of members gave me good advice if you want to search my threads. Somethings I have done is offer a water bowl in addition to 2 water bottles. When I get there veggies ready I soak them for 30 mintues so they soak up all the water and the buns get some extra water. I also installed a water filter so they are not getting as much calcium from the water. They get plenty of exercise but I have tried giving them more time going up and down the stairs to move that calcium around and hopefully out. I have tried to feed better treats. I have done a lot. If you have any questions let me know. I am not sure if this will help you if the problem is in your buns kidneys. Good luck. 


ETA: When my vet diagnosed my buns she took x-rays which clearly showed the calcium. It was really white. On the bun with sludge she did an ultrasound to see how bad it was. Chase with the stone you could see via the x-rays it was to big to ever pass.


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## Maureen Las (Jan 13, 2009)

stones in the kidney could damge the kidney ; I think labwork would benecessary ..I just pmd Randy


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## myheart (Jan 13, 2009)

Thanks all for the links. I will have to check them out tomorrow as I am almost done here at work (yes, I get to be online and on RO for four hours). Time to go clean cages and get the kids ready for bed.

Naturestee, I had blood work done for their dentals either this last time (December) or the time before, and nothing was said about the results being out of whack for Luna. Maybe I will ask if they still have the results and if there are any indicators now that we know what the problem is. Dr. Tavis said that stones develop rather quickly in rabbits, so there may be no way of knowing when it started.

Patch and Luna go for their next dental on the fourth of February. I have already asked him to do another x-ray of her tummy as long as she will be out for her teeth. That will also be a concern then also.... the anesthesia for the dentals. Won't that be even more hard on her system if her kidneys are wonky already?

So much to ask the vet about...

myheart


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## naturestee (Jan 13, 2009)

LOL, I suppose I should have posted that I had already pm'd Randy. He's probably in the process of writing a huge response right now...


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## naturestee (Jan 13, 2009)

Another thought- when you talk to him about pain meds see if he can give you something that's easier on the kidneys than Metacam is. She's been on Tramadol before, prescribed by the same vet so I know they keep some on hand.

For the record, I don't believe that calcium in veggies is a problem because of the water that comes with it. And even rabbits prone to stones need some dietary calcium or they risk reabsorbing it from their bones.


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## tonyshuman (Jan 13, 2009)

But what about oxalates? That article from medi-rabbit that angieluv posted said that limiting greens high in calcium is a mistake, but it also mentioned that oxalates can cause stones too. Unfortunately a lot of the high Ca veggies are also high in oxalates (I'm looking at you, broccoli family!)--maybe dietary intake of oxalates should be limited to reduce the risk of stones? You would think though that if it were strictly dietary the other two cuties would have it too... I hope her years of neglect have not made her kidney function wonky.


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## ra7751 (Jan 13, 2009)

Umm....been here before. Some of you might remember Yoda....he was our special little fighter that fought so hard for so long against EC. He also had bladder sludge and stones. Learned a lot from him. We pulled all the calcium rich foods from him. We had him on lowest calcium content pellets, all grass hays and watched his greens carefully. Nothing seemed to help. The sludge just kept coming. You know how sometimes certain things that have no relationship to whatever it is you are doing will turn on a light. I looked over at one of my very large aquariums. It had this sludge looking stuff all around the top. Looked just like the "calcium" in Yoda's urine. Since we are on a community well, there are tests done (mainly for contamination) but also it breaks down components and we have a very high mineral content water. I modified his medical treatment...and changed to a low mineral content water. There is no real evidence, just hear say, that excessive calcium causes sludge or stones. While it's true that rabbits do metabolize calcium differently, certain individuals might be more prone to this issue.....and like in our local area, this is known a the kidney stone belt due to mineral content in the water....and I know all about that from personal experience. Even without clinical proof, I would still watch the calcium intake. Collards, spinach and kale are all high in calcium...and I use these greens in squirrels in the initial attack on Metabolic Bone Disease. And the calcium like deposits might not be calcium at all....could be spores.

Having said that....hereare my suggestions on how to proceed. Discuss this with your doctor.

>Perform a urinalysis to see exactly what is in the urine and look for signs of infections. Stones will many times cause infections. UTIs have become very difficult to treat in recent years.

>Perform a full CBC so you can have a reference point for charting kidney function. Send out a blood sample for EC titer.

>Get fluids going---stat. I would most likely use Sodium Chloride SQ. The idea here would be to "flush" the renal system. Wet leafy greens...romaine lettuce would be good....can help with hydration.

>Modify diet to restrict calcium just in case.

>I would switch to a low mineral content water (not distilled...they need some minerals). I think there is something called Rocchetta Water that can be purchased online. I think Oxbow offered a low mineral content water at one time but I don't remember seeing it recently.

>If this is stones, it would be painful. I would want some pain management. If you can maintain hydration, I would use a NSAID....most likely Metacam. I have often been tempted to use Toradol but there is a high risk of gastric ulcers (I use this drug personally). I would have no problem adding a narcotic like aspect to the treatment if needed. Buprenex is my first choice but Tramadol would be an acceptable alternative. The idea in using a NSAID is to possible reduce any inflammation inside the kidneys and allow the very small passages to open just enough to move the stone.

>I would use cranberry extract (not the processed juice). I think Oxbow offered something called Critter Berries at one time....don't know it they still do. Cranberry extract can also be found at health food stores.

>I also use ascorbic acid to acidify the system. This has to be used with extreme caution in order to not upset the gut...especially considering recent history. I do this by using small pieces of oranges. Citrus is an excellent source of this acid....it's Vitamin C....and thereis a lot of water in oranges. Some rabbits will even eat the orange flavored human vitamins....and guinea pigs have a tasty Vit C tab since they usually need C supplements. This would be the last thing I do if the others don't work. If this becomes necessary....start small and proceed slowly.

>I would suspect the prognosis of surgery would not be good. As your vet said, bladder stones are one thing, inside the kidneys are a totally different world.

>Heat can reduce the pain associated with stones/sludge. A covered heating pad on lowest setting might be beneficial. Monitor the pad closely to insure it doens't get too hot (and it can even on low).

>Let her move around as much as possible. Movement will sometimes cause these things to move.

Hope this helps. I really think you need a little more detailed diagnosis to determine exactly what is going on and exactly how to attack it.

Randy


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## Bo B Bunny (Jan 13, 2009)

http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-5/calcium.html

:hug: ray:


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## naturestee (Jan 13, 2009)

Janet, a thought: call the clinic tomorrow and get the email address. I was told Dr. Travis is the regular person to check those anyway, and ask if he'll be willing to look over Randy's suggestions. Include his contact info and what he does (wildlife rehab).


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## Maureen Las (Jan 14, 2009)

it would be great if Randy would help out with this ; I think that he would like to help


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## Haley (Jan 14, 2009)

Great info here guys and awesome post, Randy! We have to bookmark this for our Library. 

I dont really have anything else to offer other than what has been suggested. Yes, bluegrass hay is great. I would just give bluegrass and timothy hays. Definitely avoid alfalfa. www.kmshayloft.com has some great timothy/bluegrass mixes. If it were my bun I would avoid those higher calcium veggies (kale, parsley,spinach, collard greens etc) even though theres some debate about how much calcium is actually absorbed. 

I would also ask about potassium citrate which is often used to dissolve bladder stones and sludge, which might work in the kidneys? I also know people who give cranberry chewable vitamins (like cranactin except with less sugar) and swear that helps as well.

I'll be praying for Luna. Let us know if theres anything we can do to help.


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## myheart (Jan 14, 2009)

*naturestee wrote: *


> Janet, a thought: call the clinic tomorrow and get the email address. I was told Dr. Travis is the regular person to check those anyway, and ask if he'll be willing to look over Randy's suggestions. Include his contact info and what he does (wildlife rehab).



I was thinking about checking for an e-mail address for Dr. Travis because I did have other questions anyhow and thought an e-mail might help me get my thoughts organized instead of getting him on the phone and totally forgetting everything.

Like I said, Luna goes back to the vet on the fourth of February. Does anyone think that is too long of a time in between before getting the blood work done? I did not get a chance to look at the x-ray or inquired about number of stone (one of my questions to vet) so I do not know how extreme the stones are. My concern is that vet's schedule may not fit my schedule and I do not know if I want to take another venture with this bitter cold for the rest of this week. It is one thing to put myself in harms way, but another thing to involve any of the kids unless it is an emergency. I also do not want to cause Luna anymore stress than necessary. Aside from diet, I am trying to send positive, healing thoughts her way of having healthy kidneys again. Honestly, with the way she has been acting yesterday and today, you would not think anything is wrong with her (she is busy cuddling with Zappa).

btw... I think the pain reliever that he wants to perscribe is the Tramadol because it does have a muscle relaxant feature to it. I really should either try to get the perscription and/or have all of the information faxed to Manitowoc vet for weekend emergencies andso they are on the same page.

Thanks Randy for all of the information. Once again you pull through and offer most excellent advice. I will be sure to re-read everything a couple of times to make sure I know what I am talking about when I do get a hold of Dr. Travis. We all learn from these types of experiences, and unfortunately we lose some in the process. Hopefully, your experience with little Yoda will help Luna pull though this to live a happy, healthy life.

myheart


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## NorthernAutumn (Jan 14, 2009)

No words of wisdom from me at this time... Just wishing Luna a speedy recovery:hug:ray: (and peace of mind for you !)


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## kherrmann3 (Jan 14, 2009)

Same here! I have no experience or knowledge about bunny kidney stones, but I hope that little miss Luna has a fast recovery!


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## myheart (Jan 14, 2009)

Thanks so much for the good thoughts NorthernAutumn and kherrmann3. Luna is such a good girl that it would kill me to lose my little girl now. This experience has really made us much closer. 

When the doctor was handing her back to me after the x-ray, I was lucky I was sort of ready for her otherwise she would have flown across the exam table and over my shoulder. :shock:All she wanted was to be in my arms getting cuddled and being protected. Luna's actions made me feel important in her life as her guardian (mom) and reconfirmed that she trusts and loves me. She really does have a piece of my heart!

Thanks for all healing thoughts.

myheart


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## ra7751 (Jan 14, 2009)

I would really like to have the bloodwork as soon as possible. With everything going on I know it might be tough....and very dangerous in the frigid weather....it is very cold here and getting colder. But a problem in the kidneys can escalate quickly. Remember that the renal system is part of waste removal...and if that waste isn't expelled efficiently....it isn't good. And if the x-rays are digital....I would be glad to look at them if you could send them. Keep the hydration up above all! Tramadol is an excellent drug that gives pain control like an opiate. It does have to be compounded into a suspension and it can be flavored. It can also be used concurrently with NSAIDs if necessary. It is normally dosed twice a day...a third dose per day can offer some sedation should that become necessary. Tramadol is a great drug...and it's easy to have around since it isn't a controlled drug. Veryuseful in rabbits. Hang in there.

Randy


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## myheart (Jan 14, 2009)

Randy, I called the vet place today and found that the doctor does not have an e-mail account with the clinic. I will have to get all of my questions ready for him, call to say I have questions, then wait for his return call. I must say though, he is extremely good about calling back. It is probably good I didn't try to get ahold of him today anyhow... Wednesdays are his surgery days. 

I will get my questions ready for him by morning.I think my evening job may be cancelled because of the cold so i should have plenty of time to wait for his return call. If there is anything in particular you want me to ask him, please post, and I will make it a point to check this thread before I call and while I wait for his response. I also want to make sure I have your previous post in front of me when he calls back anyhow. 

Thanks for all of your help Randy!! You are such an asset to the forumand to all of our bunners!

myheart


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## ra7751 (Jan 14, 2009)

Thanks for the very kind words....it means a lot and I really needed it the way things are getting out of hand around here.

I really thinka urinalysis and a full CBC with EC titer will shed more light on the subject. The EC titer is something that will have to be sent out for labs. If this titer is performed, do not get upset if it comes back positive....it most likely will as most domestic rabbits have been exposed to EC at some point. The titer is to see the level of antibodies. To get a good look, there should be several titers performed over a period of several weeks. The initial presentations of EC are usually some type of neuro marker. This could be a barely noticable paresis that is usually presented in the left rear leg. It might be an odd stretch of the leg as she hops...or it could cause a stumble. To make a complicated story short and simple....as the spores of the protozoa multiply, the spores are shed thru the kidneys. These spores can appear to be calcium. These spores pit and scar the kidneys....and the kidneys will decline in efficiency. This will show up in the renal values. It is one piece of a much larger puzzle. The initial onset of EC is many times misdiagnosed as a UTI due to the "crystals" (spores) in the urine. The leg issue is many times attributed to pain related to the UTI. The CBC will also allow us to take a look at various kidney and liver values....and those values usually tell the tale. The urinalysis will basically look for unusual bacteria in the urine. It will also test the pH and that will tell us a lot too.

Diagnosing problems like this, as I mentioned earlier, is like a puzzle. Put all the pieces together, and you will get a correct diagnosis which should lead to an effective response. I'll be watching....and don't hesitate to send me a PM. I will have limited time available on the forum for a while.

Randy


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## Bo B Bunny (Jan 15, 2009)

Bo always jumps from the vet to me..... without warning. When we first took him, the vet at the time was a big softie for bunnies. He had raised mini-rex and when Bo jumped to me and hid his face under my chin.... the vet just melted..... "oh look at the baby loving his mama!" hehe Makes you feel great! Scares you when they jump tho! :shock:

I sure pray Luna does well. I wish they could get those stones out of her


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## myheart (Jan 15, 2009)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> I sure pray Luna does well. I wish they could get those stones out of her


I agree with that so much. It feels like she is carrying a little time-bomb and there is no way of knowing when it will go off. Luna was so happy for her apple-snack this morning that I would never suspect anything wrong with her. She is so awesome and such a little trooper! 

myheart


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## tonyshuman (Jan 19, 2009)

Any news?
ray:


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## myheart (Jan 19, 2009)

*tonyshuman wrote: *


> Any news?
> ray:



Nothing different.....

I did get to talk with Luna's vet, Dr. Travis. Basically, it will be a diet change for Luna. I asked about all of the tests, including the CBC and EC titer, and he believes that there will be no new information gained by performing the tests. He will do another x-ray on the fourth of February and run a blood panel to check for kidney function. He had said that at the time of the last panel done for her dental last year, her kidneys were functioning just fine, so there were no indicators of a problem. He said that if there is a change in panel values, there would be nothing to do for her anyhow because she would be going through renal failure which would beirreversable.

The development of kidney stones is probablytied togenetics. He had said that out of all the rabbits he treats, he has had only one other case of kidney stones. That rabbit's stones were found by "accident" also. An x-ray was taken to determine the cause of stasis and the stones were found. No other indication of stones were presented in behavior of the rabbit, as with Luna.

The urine sample he took indicated calcium crystals, so there will be no alfalfa or pellets in her diet. We are trying to stay away from the kale and parsley, but I know she misses her kale because she is being fuss about eating the Romaine and green leaf lettuce. Cilantro and carrot disappear in seconds flat...

Dr. Travis will perscribe the Tramadol for her, but he is having a difficult time getting his hands on the elixer, which will have a shelf-life of a year. Compared to the suspenssion they could make up from pill-form with a shelf-life of a month. I am hoping he will get the elixer in by February fourth so I will be able to have it on hand for any pain relief.

He also said that although the x-ray does not distinguish individual stones, he thinks they should be small enough to pass on their own. He had said that if the stones were too big, her kidneys would look swollen. At this point, they have a normal shape, size, and function.

Not sure what else to add, other than she seems to be doing fine today. She went through another bit of stasis this weekend, so I can only hope she passed another stone. Today Luna was so excited to get her berry-snack for breakfast and she hung out with Zappa all morning. I love seeing her feel good... she is like a ray of sunshine when she is happy! It just brings tears to my eyes to see her enjoy life.

So this is where I get to ask every one for their help... Please send healing thoughts and vibes to Luna. I am asking for her to be healthy and free of stones, and any damage they caused, by spring. Spring will be the best time because the spring solstice is in March. The end of March will be Luna's first gotchya-day!!!! I want her to go outside, when the weather turns nice, to enjoy the sunshine with Patrick and Zappa. 

Thanks to every one, especially Randy, for all of your help. The information and the links were most helpful to myself and hopefully others with similar problems with their bunners. 

myheart


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## Bo B Bunny (Jan 19, 2009)

Awww that's my girl! Cilantro is all of my bunnies' favorite along with carrot tops! 

I hope those stones just go away!


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## kherrmann3 (Jan 19, 2009)

Good luck, little miss Luna! Hopefully you'll pass those stones! I also hope that they are little stones! It would be even better if they went away!


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## myheart (Jan 19, 2009)

Thanks so much for the well wishes Bo B and k~! The good thoughts are much appreciated and needed for my little girl. It warmed my heart to see her cuddling with Zappa this morning.She also made time to cuddlewith Patrick in a bit of sunshine until he decided to lay some lovin' on her. Now I have a few more sunny-bunny pics to post.

myheart


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## ra7751 (Jan 19, 2009)

Umm...I hate to disagree with a vet since I am not a vet....but this time I am. I would insist on the blood panel with the EC titer. Since there was nothing in a previous blood panel some time ago, that raises a flag. Renal failure and stones are not something that just happens in a few months without a root cause. The reason I would want the EC titer is to see what the level of antibodies are. One of the first indications of an active EC infection is kidney issues. The other is a very slight paresis usually in the left rear leg. It might be nothing more than a very slight stumble or an odd stretch of the leg. But when the spores of the protozoa shed, they interfere with th efficiency of the kidneys. That can cause an increased concentration of calcium in the urine which isn't being properly managed by the renal system. It might not be EC....but a titer would give us an idea and if it's low, EC can be elminated from the discussion. But if the titer is high...that would bring on more talk. No flaming to any vet...but honestly, very few vets have seen a real case of EC.

Renal failure can't be cured...but it can be managed. I have had a rabbit in renal failure for a very long time....and he had active EC. Thru a series of husbandry and medical protocols, we provided him a high quality of life right up to the last couple of days of his life.

I would not wait on the suspension agent for the Tramadol. It is quite easy to compound enough for a few days....and it is stable in Lactated Ringers for some time...not a year but good for afew days. Ask your vet if he would make up a few day's worth using LRS and FlavorX.

Randy


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## myheart (Jan 20, 2009)

Randy,

I just printed off all of your suggestions to take with me for Luna's appointment. I am a bit tempted to send it snail-mail, but if they don't accept e-mails they may not accept regular mail either. 

Luna is doing well for now. She is not happy about not being able to have kale, but enjoys the extra berry I sneak to her during the day. She is so skinny from her stasis that the calories might do her some good. I also picked up some acidophilous to sprinkle on her food because she does not care for the bene-bac gel. I know I read about it in one of Randy's posts for some one else and the vet concurred one that one. I have also been trying to feed her cranberries, but I think Zappa has been taking them, so we will probably go back to the juice I picked up. It only has filtered water to dilute the concentrate. 

It really is amazing how naughty Luna is when she is feeling better.... 

myheart


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## Maureen Las (Jan 20, 2009)

Good Luck at the vet Janet

You can also get benbac in a powder form. I buy it at petco and put it into a piece of banana. You want to make sure that the active microorganism lactobacillus casei is being given to her for her gut flora to stabilize.


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## LuvaBun (Jan 22, 2009)

it's good to hear that Luna is feeling better in herself. I am praying that the stones either go away, or are passed easily.

Jan


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## myheart (Jan 22, 2009)

*LuvaBun wrote: *


> it's good to hear that Luna is feeling better in herself. I am praying that the stones either go away, or are passed easily.
> 
> Jan



Thanks so much for the good wishes. Luna has been feeling so much better of late. She has been so naughty with trying to steal pellets from Zappa's and Patrick's dishes. I think she finally knows that she had lost so much weight and realizes how hungry she is. The poor girly lost a half a pound in that one week of stasis and it really shows. Her little butt is so bony now that her hip bones have no meat on them anymore. 

The vet says that as long as she is interested in her greens and hay, she should gain some weight back. I just hope she gains enough in case of another stasis caused from passing another stone.

We are staying as positive as possible in the hopes that she will be better for spring and her first gotchya day. All the prayers are so helpful, thank you. 

myheart


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## Boz (Jan 22, 2009)

I just saw this now. 
Glad she's doing better and I hope she is able to pass them!
She reminds me of Dolla- She loooooves pellets but can't have as much as Marley and Domino and if Domino doesn't finish in time Dolla will try to steal them! 
Best wishes. :hug2:


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## Amy27 (Jan 27, 2009)

How are you and Luna doing? Anything new?I am praying for you guys.


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## myheart (Jan 27, 2009)

*Amy27 wrote: *


> How are you and Luna doing? Anything new?I am praying for you guys.



I was also catching up on your thread about Chase.... it is good to hear that she is feeling a bit better. Good luck with test results and getting a second opinion. I was surprised they didn't test the stone for composition. :?Prayers and hugs to you and Chase also. :hug: Keep positive thoughts....

Anyhow, nothing new with Luna at this time. She will be going in on February 4th for her dental. Prior to the dental, the vet is going to do a blood panel to make sure kidney functions are good, and take another xray. I am bringing along all of Randy's information to see if the vet concures with all of the tests. Not sure what to do if that becomes a dead end, because I already know that all I am able to really do is change her diet and pray for her good health. I am going to find out if he has the Tramadol available for any emergency that comes up for Luna. A week of stasis was not only hard on her, but I was just a wreck trying to guess what was wrong and how much more we could both take. Luna is a fighter, I will say that for her. 

I am so praying that he will find the stones have diminished especially with the way Luna has been acting of late. She has been just crazy with her running around and being naughty. Any bun who acts like that can't be sick!!! It just makes me smile and tear-up a bit to think of her silliness of late. 

myheart


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## Amy27 (Jan 27, 2009)

I was surprised they didnt' check Chase's stone also. The vet said there was no need because they checked the last one but I would rather know then assume it is the same. I am taking the stone to the vet when I get a second opinion to see if she wants to check it. 

It is so hard when you don't know what to do or what is wrong. I am also going to ask my vet about giving me some meds to take home so that if something goes wrong on the weekend I can give them. Since both times Chase has gotten sick on a weekend and ER vet is $400. I hope she gives you the Tramadol. Does your vet have an emergency line you can call after hours and talk to a vet and atleast tell them what is going on to see what they say? Mine does that till 10 pm but since I never have the meds it doesn't help much. But if they give you the meds you could call in and verify by her symptoms it would be ok to give until she can be seen. 

I really hope you get some good news at her appointment. The waiting game has to be so hard. Keep me up to date.


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## myheart (Jan 28, 2009)

Amy27, the vet that Luna goes to inSheboygandoes not have an after-hours emergency line. But the vet here in town, Manitowoc, does. They tried to direct emergency calls to Green Bay or Appleton, but I don't think that went over very well because in a real emergency, other locations would be a forty-five minute drive minimum. So now they will at least take the after-hour calls, determine if it is a real emergency, or just give tips on household products that could tied the animal over until morning. Getting a bunny-savvy vet would be up in the air though....

myheart


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## Amy27 (Feb 2, 2009)

I have been thinking about you and Luna. Her appt is not far off. Make sure you update when you get back. I will be thinking about you guys on the 4th hoping for some good news.


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## naturestee (Feb 2, 2009)

Thanks for asking about Luna. I don't know if/when Myheart will have time to update, but she let me know today that Luna appeared to be passing another stone this weekend. She will still be going for testing on the 4th but if she's not feeling better yet she will not be getting her regularly scheduled dental work done.

I'm trying to remind myself (and Myheart!) that it's better out than in.


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## tonyshuman (Feb 2, 2009)

Oh, Luna. ray::hug: Get better soon sweetie!


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## myheart (Feb 3, 2009)

Thanks Naturestee for filling in on the reply for Amy.

Luna is having another little bout of stasis. I think it might be another stone passingas I found more bloody urine in Patrick's cage. I am only able to assume it is her urine because I didn't find it until I came home from work around noon on Saturday. 

I thinkLuna feels a little bit better today, but she is still not eating like she should be. She is still not showing the excitement over her snacks like she had been these past few weeks. We have been trying the Crittical Care to make sure something is in her tummy, but she really has no interest in that. So, I am going to say that she is eating just enough timothy hay to get by, but not enough to feel like herself yet. 

Luna's appointment is this Wednesday, although I am waiting for her vet to call me so I could keep him posted on her stasis andpotentially not having her dental done until she is eating as usual. I really do want to get that Tramadol for the next time this happens.

I will post more tomorrow evening after we are home and settled in.

myheart


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## LuvaBun (Feb 3, 2009)

Poor little girl . I hope this passes quickly.

keeping you both in my prayers.

Jan


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## myheart (Feb 3, 2009)

Thanks Jan. I hope all of this passes quickly also. Luna has her first Gotchya Day to celebrate at the end of March, and we need to have her happy and healthy to enjoy her day.

I have noticed that Luna's not feeling well really does affect the entire trio. Patrick and Zappa both seem a bit more quiet also. I do hope Luna comes out of this so we will all be able to breathe a bit easier, even if it will only be another few weeks for another stone to pass.

myheart


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## kherrmann3 (Feb 3, 2009)

Luna seems like quite the little fighter. She'll make it through this... Even if it really sucks right now. :hug:


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## TreasuredFriend (Feb 3, 2009)

Perhaps ask Dr. Travis if Tramadol is likely to cause stomach ulcers with regular use? If Luna needs it for several months? \\ Everybody is sending healing vibes for Luna and her snugglebuns, and YOU as their Extra-Caring V.I.Mom.:hearts:


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## myheart (Feb 3, 2009)

Actually I was going to ask Dr. Travis about a different pain drug. I called my vet here in Manitowoc about their stock of elixer Tamadol, of which they have none in stock. Dr. Gobal did mention a different drug similar to the one that Randy mentioned, Buprenex. I don't have the name of the mentioned drug in front of me right now, but I bet it is same thing. She said that it is actually an injectable pain killer, but if placed under the tongue or in the cheek area, it will work just as well. If the drug goes straight into the mouth and down into the tummy, the gastric juices stop the drug's effectiveness.

Dr. Gobalonly warned about the Tramadol because it could actually cause stasis, which Luna does not need to have compounded. She also mentioned that Dr. Bixler, same clinic as Dr. Travis,usually uses this drug also for her bunny clients.

btw... he didn't get back to me today, which is unfortunate because I know he doesn't like to do consults on his surgery day. Either the message was not delivered, or he was too busy. I will try him on my break-time, or have to request to see him prior to anything being done with her.

myheart


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## myheart (Feb 3, 2009)

I did get in touch with Dr. Travis on my break. He said that he has no problem with running blood work and the x-ray prior to making any safety decisions about the dental. I also asked about the different pain-killing drug, although I couldn't remember the name, and he is willing to compare the effecteness of each against the risks. 

So wish us luck for tomorrow and that more stones are coming out. 

myheart


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 3, 2009)

I'll be so anxious to hear about her blood panel on Friday.

You know what Randy says is very true..... she was fine a few months ago. Now, I have a question and maybe Randy could give his opinion as well.

Luna was kinda "plump" when she first came to RO as a rescue..... she lost a good bit of weight and is on a healthy diet - 

COULD it be that when she was losing weight her body just couldn't process out all the bad stuff? 

I have no clue how these things work but it just seems to me like her system went through some big changes in the past year or so, right?


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## myheart (Feb 3, 2009)

Bo B, Naturestee would have to tell you about Luna's condition when she was taken into her foster care. I know that much of Luna's under-weight problems were caused by dental issues. By the time I took her in, she looked really good. Naturestee helped Luna with her weight and her confidence.

Unfortunately, I gave Luna too many treats. It was a gradual thing because she didn't know about them until she saw Patrick begging for them. After talking with the vet about Patrick's small poo's, I had to eliminate as much carbohydrate junk as possible. As difficult as it was to do, things returned to normal with output. Patrick is a carbo-junkie though... He still begs for his treats at about he same time, but now I just pet him and tell him how handsome he is.

Anyhow, Luna ended up topping out on the Dutch weigh-scale, so eliminating the carbs was a good move for her also. Her loss of weight was very gradual up to the point of her last stasis a few weeks back. 

I am not sure, but if she is genetically predisposed to having stones without any sort of knowledge of this, I think it could happen to any-bun in the same situation. Patch and Zappa have no problem, that I know of, from eating kale and parsely. According to one of the links posted (I think by TreasuredFriend) that calcium content of veggies is done as a dry weight, not the fresh hydrated veggie. Without some calcuim, their bodies could also take calcium from their bones. Sometimes I think you are damned if you do, and damned if you don't....

myheart


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## naturestee (Feb 3, 2009)

I'd have Dr. Travis make the pain med decision. Buprenex is a very strong drug and might make Luna too loopy, although that might be a good thing with those kidney stones. It is also controlled more because it is a very strongopiate, whereas Tramadol is an opiate but not to the point where they have to worry about people selling it on the streets. Gut slowdown from Tramadol should be minimal if any, also Luna has had it before (from her spay) and responds well to it.

I'm pretty sure Buprenex is what Dr. Bixler gave Dora after she had that nasty fall/head trauma. Talk about a magic carpet ride! Also, it's the only thing she ever tried to spit out of her mouth. Must taste awful, and this is a rabbit who sucked down antibiotics like milk.

If Randy is around, hopefully he'll put his 2 cents in. Maybe you could try the Buprenex and if it makes her too loopy (as in can't function, won't eat much, etc.) then go down to the Tramadol.

Also, I wonder if they could write a prescription that you could fill at a regular pharmacy as needed? That way you could have liquidized Tramadol on demand.


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 3, 2009)

She was underweight at first? I couldn't remember which it was. I know she was SO much healthier after such a short time. Then, she came to you.... it just made me think.... maybe it happened from going out of the bad situation to the good with you two...


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## naturestee (Feb 3, 2009)

About Luna's condition when she was brought to the shelter- she looked fat. But as soon as you touched her you realized that she had a saggy belly but was really boney and thin everywhere else. This is a common sign of malnutrition in many mammals, including those pot-bellied kids you see in famine areas in 3rd world countries. She also had some roughness to her skin on the ears and to her nails. I have no idea what her owners were feeding her. I attributed most of the malnutrition to her molar spurs that were preventing her from eating (she was in GI slowdown aka stasis), although I'd be surprised if her diet had been "healthy."


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## myheart (Feb 3, 2009)

Thanks Naturestee for the input. If you were comfortable having Luna on the Tramadol, then I won't worry so much about it. Yea, I don't want her totally knocked out, just feel well enough to take the pain away and still be able to function. I will also ask about a pharmacy perscription for the elixer especially if they don't have any in yet. I would really just like to have it on hand for the bad times, not every day usage. So the longer it lasts, the better.

myheart


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## myheart (Feb 3, 2009)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> She was underweight at first? I couldn't remember which it was. I know she was SO much healthier after such a short time. Then, she came to you.... it just made me think.... maybe it happened from going out of the bad situation to the good with you two...



**shruggs** I am not sure what to say...

At first I was going to respond with saying that maybe she wouldn't have had stones with her first people, but if they were feeding her bad food to begin with...? Pellets were the one thing the vet said to definitely eliminate, although I have read that Oxbow pellets are lower in calcium than most other brands. So if they were feeding bad pellets, I would assume they might have had a higher calcium level. They might have not fed any greens either, or maybe something like iceburg lettuce. 

I don't think we will ever know.... There are just too many variable. Aside from genetics, maybe this could also be age related. My little girl is turning grey already so she might actually be older than we think.

Just thoughts...

myheart


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## naturestee (Feb 3, 2009)

If nothing else, get me the recipe and I'll make it at work for you. I use Tramadol myself but usually don't use the max number of pills per day that I'm prescribed.:biggrin2:

Although you'd still be stuck without it on the weekends.

Luna reacted really badly to her spay. I think she was so used to dental pain that the abdominal pain was a shock and Metacam was seriously not enough. None of my other girls have acted that poorly after a spay. I got Tramadol for her the next morning and once it kicked in there was a huge difference in her.


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## naturestee (Feb 3, 2009)

About her age- that is true that we can't be sure. After all, her original owners claimed she was spayed. She was not.


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 3, 2009)

Yeah, I thought there were weird issues there. Regarding having stones before or not..... we would never know but I still wonder if maybe it's not all a result of her bad condition before and her body flushing out a bunch of bad stuff ...... 

I just want her better


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## myheart (Feb 3, 2009)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> I just want her better



Amen.

I always tell Luna that there are other people around the world (literally) who love her as much as I do, and that they are all pulling for her. 

Thanks Bo B. I will pass your words and well wishes on to Luna. I will also give her extra cheek rubs from you as well. (You brought a tear to my eye, and I'm at work. I hate that...)

myheart


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## myheart (Feb 3, 2009)

Wow Bo B and everyone else sending healing vibes to Luna!!!! You are really doing your work!

I came home tonight with full expectations of giving Luna more Critical Care once I had everyone else settled in with snacks. Like I said, I have been giving Luna her salad last so there is no extra stress for her. 

She ate!!! She had some of her Oxbow timothy hay, a bit of carrot, and some greens!! I am so excited for her!! I really wanted to get a picture of her chowing down, but I am sure her little tummy fills up fast being so empty.

Now Luna is resting comfortably in front of Zappa's cage after having pee'ed in front of the other of the cage. Her sense of humor is coming back!!

Thanks All!!! You all rock!!! 

myheart

(I have to go cry a bit now---happy tears)


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## naturestee (Feb 3, 2009)

That's my girl!:highfive:


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## tonyshuman (Feb 3, 2009)

Buprenex is an opiod and therefore would slow down the GI perhaps more than tramadol, which is not an opiod. Wikipedia tells me it's constapitory (is that a word?) effects are less than morphine, but still anything from that class of drugs will cause GI slowdown.

If the "fat looking-ness" of Luna before her diet change was due to fat deposits, it's possible that she had some fat-soluble toxin stored in her fat that was released into the blood when she lost weight. This toxin then put stress on the organs that eliminate toxins ie liver and kidney.

I'm told by wikipedia that the bulging belly of a malnourished child can be caused by an enlarged liver due to fattly liver disease. Maybe she was getting such a bad diet that she got fatty liver disease which has caused long-term damage in these systems? Just throwing ideas out there.

It's so frustrating when a seemingly healthy bunny gets so ill, especially with great care, and the doctors can't find the cause. I hope Luna's blood panel will be imformative.

Hugs to you and the cutie dutch army, wisconsin division!


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## kherrmann3 (Feb 3, 2009)

Woohoo! Go Luna! 
:bunnydance: :bunnyhug: :dutch :bunny18 arty0002:


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## naturestee (Feb 3, 2009)

This is the technical term for the pot belly:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwashiorkor

Fatty/enlarged liver is one possible although excess peritoneal fluid is another. Both would make sense, but liver problems aren't likely as Luna had a full blood panel done within a few days of me bringing her home as part of her diagnosis. Her liver, kidneys, everything looked fine. (As a side note, aflatoxins are also listed as a possibility.)

I actually have that link saved in the "threads in progress" area and just haven't gotten around to doing any more. This isn't the first time I've seen this- Fey also had this when I got her.


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 4, 2009)

I'm so glad she ate some! That's my beautiful girl! and peeing in front of the cage! AWESOME! Gotta love da bunnies!


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## tonyshuman (Feb 4, 2009)

I'm glad she's eating!! Keep it up, little girl!

Saw that wiki article myself.  I'm glad to know her liver is fine. I was just looking for a reason she might have damage to her organs of elimination. It's most likely (I think) that Luna had that condition due to vitamin deficiency. We have a bunny at the shelter that has been VERY fat and is losing weight, and she has looked totally different than Luna did at first.


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## naturestee (Feb 4, 2009)

I've appointed myself the official updater cause I'm trying to keep Myheart from being as stressed.

There's good news and bad news.

Good news- Luna started munching on hay at the vet office and was very hungry for her veggies when she got home.

Bad news- Blood tests show renal failure. From the xray, one kidney looks worse than the other. Dental work was not done on her. Also, her white blood cell count is high, indicating an infection.

Treatments: Sub-q fluids, every day for a week then every other day after that. Metacam once a day (sub-q fluids make it safer with the kidneys, hoping anti-inflammatory properties may help with irritation caused by stones), Tramadol twice a day. Urine culture and sensitivity test, sampled directly from the bladder with a needle. It will take a few days to get the results back and then an antibiotic will be chosen. Luna will return in 2 weeks to have the blood work done again.

There are some other diagnostic teststhat are possible and might be done later. This includes an ultrasound and a test involving dye being added to the blood and radiographs to observe it moving through the kidneys. This second test might require anesthesia depending on whether Luna gets squirmy once the catheter is put in.

:nerves1


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## myheart (Feb 4, 2009)

Thanks Naturestee for the post/update.

I wasn't sure what would be more difficult, writing about the vet visit or reading about it. All I do know is that I am not ready to lose my little girl. We are going to try to do as much maintainance as possible to keep the calcium in her kidneys under control. Please keep the good thoughts coming.Luna will still need them.

btw... Patrick is almost officially toothless.... I have noticed that he has been eating his carrot in a different pattern than usual and not eating much of his green. Poor little tyke has to work too hard at gumming his foods now. 

myheart


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## kherrmann3 (Feb 4, 2009)

Oh, no! Sending good vibes your way. Keep up that appetite, Luna! :clover:


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## tonyshuman (Feb 4, 2009)

Oh dear. I'm so sorry about this bad news. It's definitely not what anyone wants to hear. It's not going to be easy, but I'm sure you and the vet can provide her with a good quality of life and as many sunbeam snuggles as she can handle. 

HUGE HUGS and as many good vibes as will fly through the air to you and your trio.
:heartbeat::dutch:heartbeat:

[line]
Some links for when you've regained your bearings:

Yahoo Pets group for parents of rabbits with renal failure:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/cfr-rabbits/

I read here ( http://www.rabbitnetwork.org/articles/kidneys.shtml ) that some bunnies can live for over a year with renal failure and enjoy themselves. 

This site talks about special foods for dogs and cats with renal failure that improve lifespan: http://www.marvistavet.com/html/dietary_therapy_of_renal_failu.html 

And this article from Kathy Smith talks about holistic medicine treatments. It mentions that accupuncture and several herbs are good at treating kidney disease.
http://www.rabbitnetwork.org/articles/holistic.shtml

This is also a list of small animal holistic vets in WI:
http://www.holisticvetlist.com/ahvma_query_advanced.php


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## Amy27 (Feb 4, 2009)

I am so sorry myheart. It sounds like you and the vet have a good plan. If you need anything let me know even if you just want to vent.


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## myheart (Feb 4, 2009)

Thanks k~ and Amy. I was so hoping to hear that all of the stones in, at least, one kidney had passed. Maybe I set the goal a bit too high to start and it backfired...

Thanks Tonyshuman for the links. I will take some time to look them over. Even Naturestee says that Luna won't be gone by tomorrow. I will just love her for as long as she lets me. She will always be Patrick's true love and my baby-girl no matter what.

myheart


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 4, 2009)

Oh, Luna, PLEASE get better. We love you! ray:


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## myheart (Feb 4, 2009)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> Oh, Luna, PLEASE get better. We love you! ray:



Thanks Bo B. I will tell her you said she needs to get better. Maybe that will help, along with the extra cheek rubs fromyou.

myheart


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## JimD (Feb 5, 2009)

Send prayers and good thoughts.

ray:


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## TreasuredFriend (Feb 5, 2009)

Lots of body massages, exercise, sunshine radiance, and snuggle-time with myheart is sent to Luna.


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## myheart (Feb 5, 2009)

Thanks Jim D and TreasuredFriend for the good thoughts and well wishes. They are so appreciated at this time. 

I just don't know who needs the wishesmore to get through the nervousness of gettingused to the new procedure. I did the first sub-q drip thingy today and hated it. I think we did okay, but I still had to call the vet when we finished because Luna pee'ed a bit and there was blood in it. The vet said the blood was present because of the infection in the kidneys caused from the stones. So, I guess it will be normal for her until the infection is pinpointed and the proper antibiotic is perscribed.

The only thing is that Luna hates me now. I thought it was bad enough making her take Critical Care.... Now it's pain meds and sub-q's which are a whole different animal. I went to take a look at her before leaving for work, and Luna gave me the bunchiest scared look she could muster. I felt so aweful after seeing her posture and her face. How horrible of me to poke her with needles, especially after she had learned to trust me. How will I be able to provide the comfort she needs when I am the one inflicting the pain?!!! 

myheart


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## dquesnel (Feb 5, 2009)

*myheart wrote: *


> How will I be able to provide the comfort she needs when I am the one inflicting the pain?!!!


I always find this really difficult too. I have a rabbit with trust issues that also had a bunch of GI problems the past year. There are a few things you can do to make this easier on them;

I always try and distract as much as possible. When giving sub q injections or fluids, it really doesn't hurt them very much. But if you let her chew on a treat as you do the injections it works as a positive distraction. If she hates critical care you can mix some of her favorite treat in it to make it more rewarding. 

I think the things that bothers rabbits most (if you think like a rabbit) is not the procedures themselves, but the act of dominating them, picking them up etc. Can you possibly do some things from the floor? I trap the buns between my knees and a blanket so their head pokes out- they stay on the floor yet I have control over them. Staying on the floor makes the whole experience more positive. Of course it won't work with things like sub q's. 

Try to do it as close as possible the same time everyday. That way the rabbit can get into a bit of a schedule and not stress all the time wondering when it will happen again.

If possible, try to get someone other than yourself to help. If one person is doing the same thing all the time, it seems like the rabbit will relate what is happening with the person. If other people are there though, they serve as a distraction. 

I don't think Luna is going to hate you permanently. I have *never* seen a rabbit hold a grudge against a human that was treating it. It may take a little while for her regular personality and behavior to return but I am sure it will especially once she is feeling well again.


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## kherrmann3 (Feb 5, 2009)

*myheart wrote: *


> How will I be able to provide the comfort she needs when I am the one inflicting the pain?!!


I can totally relate with you. When my mum's dog got older, we had to start giving her insulin shots. She HATED them. I hated to do the morning shots because of the look she would give me. You know, the sad eyebrows, the brown doggy eyes. It was terrible. I felt like such a rat. After awhile, she got used to them, and would give me kisses again. It took awhile, but she wasn't mad for too long. Those were just itty-bitty insulin needles!

Luna will forgive you. You are the one who gives her salads daily! 

:hug:


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## Amy27 (Feb 5, 2009)

Chase has been getting her sub q fluids about a week now and she is already doing so much better with not being mad at me afterwards. The first few days after the fluids she went crazy. Thumping and digging. I felt awful anytime I went up to her she ran or turned her back on me. She still doesn't like to get them but gets over it very quickly. I give her a treat and give her some special run around time upstairs where she doesn't usually get to go and she forgets all about it. Tonight after her fluids she was binkying all over. It will get better I promise. I really do think they get use to it, though I don't think Chase is use to it yet she is getting there. 

I also think a routine is a good thing to have. Right now she isn't sure what is going on and why it is going on. But if you do the same thing everyday at the same time she will realize that when that is over she is done and can go have fun. I really think it is good to have something positive after the treatments. They seem to forget sooner. 

I had and still do have the feelings you are having. If you ever want to vent or talk let me know. I am proud of you. You are doing such a great job of taking care of Luna. She is so lucky to have a mother like you. I couldn't even give Chase the fluids. I hold her but a vet tech comes and gives them to her. I can see a difference in Chase activity and she is peeing like crazy. I am not sure how much you are giving Luna but Chase gets 150ml a day.


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## naturestee (Feb 5, 2009)

:hug:

I know it's hard now but Luna will forgive you and she'll get used to it in time. Maybe you can give her a treat during or after the fluids? I know she likes oats and sunflower seeds, and I also mentioned flax seeds last night which I'm sure she'd love. Put a little bowl in front of her with her treats, then put the needle in. Make a routine so she knows what to expect and doesn't have to be afraid.

You're doing a great job with Luna. You really are!


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## Maureen Las (Feb 5, 2009)

Luna will get over it in time...........

She will associate the good things that you give her also. 
Beau should hate me as he gets bicillin injections QOD and eye salve twice a day (which he hates) but when I bring in the cherry pedialyte or pumpkin and banana he forgives me immediately and forgets.
I am fairly convinced that they learn in time that we are trying tohelp them...


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## myheart (Feb 6, 2009)

Thanks every one for the votes of confidence. I don't know how much it will help at this point because I can't even think about her without crying my eyes out. I had such a hard time this morning just giving the oral meds and trying to stay calm and cool for her. Instead, I ended up crying all over her burrito toweland all the more relieved when I could let her go back to cuddle with Patch and Zappa. 

I know I could easily do all of this for a dog, maybe a cat, but for my little blue girl I am just at a loss. I was taking pictures of them today because they were all cuddled together in such a way that Luna looked like such a little matriarch. Then it struck me that all of the pictures I take of her now will be for memory's sake. I don't even think that way when I take pics of Patrick, and he is older. 

I just want my little blue Dutch girl with all of her excitement over her snacks back. I so wish I could relay the look on her face and the shine in her eyes when she was about to get something she really likes. Her excitement is so contagious that even I can't wait!!! Now it just seems to take more effort for her to "wake up." I know her body is adjusting to the meds and stuff, but I am not used to seeing her like this, and it breaks my heart.When does the crying stop...?

myheart


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## Maureen Las (Feb 6, 2009)

It's really really hard..
I know exactly what you are saying. 
It is so difficult to see an animal looking sick or slow when you are so used to them being bright eyed and ready to go..
hopefully it will get better and if it doesn't you will adapt to the changes in time 
it is the down part of loving a bun
'Hugs"
Maureen


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## tonyshuman (Feb 6, 2009)

Oh hun. [[HUGE hugs]] I've never had to deal with anything like this. Try to focus on enjoying your girl, her special personality, her role as boss of the bunnies, and her special place in your heart. She has come a long way from a bunny whose owners couldn't be bothered to buy good food for to a bunny whose mom loves her and gives her everything her little heart could need, including fluffy friends to cuddle with and the best medical care possible. The pics may be for memory's sake, but the memory they will bring back is one of a wonderful bunny who loves you very much and who you gave a wonderful life to. 

:rabbithop


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## TreasuredFriend (Feb 6, 2009)

Janet, I have a hard time with sub-Q fluids. However the vet clinic will let me bring anybun in to have their vet techs do the fluids, which soothes our nerves -- and the bun reading our body language. Perhaps this is an option for you and Luna, to take a small stress load off of everything going on right now... 
Could the vet clinic refer you to an individual who is more relaxed with the sub-Q administration? Just a thought.


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## kherrmann3 (Feb 6, 2009)

I have never been in your position with my buns, but I can imagine how heartbreaking it must be. Luna knows that, deep down, you're not doing any of this to hurt her. 

:hug: :clover:


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## naturestee (Feb 6, 2009)

You know how to find me if you need a shoulder to cry on.:hug:

One thing I learned with Dora is that you can't spend all your time worrying. Bad stuff happens and you're doing all that's possible and then you just need to leave it be. I'm sure Luna doesn't want you to mourn her while she's still alive. If nothing else, find some good distractions. I watched some random movies that I barely remember when I was on Dora death watch the one night. 

Come to my house and shoot zombies on the Wii.:biggrin2:


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## myheart (Feb 6, 2009)

Things went a bit better today. It does take so much to be able to take a deep breath to relax before doing anything for her. It just boils down to the fact that this needs to be done for her comfort.

She only has to have one unit of the sub-qfluids (not sure how that is measured out). I timed the process as only taking about four or five minutes. I tried to give her some sunflower seeds to distract her. She is too smart to fall for that... I have to suck-up after the needle comes out and so far a blackberry works. The only thing is that I still get the evil look from her. I don't think I will ever be able to make itup to herwith all of the needle-pokes she may need. 

Every once in a while I do see a glimpse of her normal self.Luna was so excited this evening for her pumpkin, that I just had to stand there wishing that I could hold ontothat moment forever. It was like watching a child on Christmas morning. That look of excitement on Luna's face is that priceless to me. I would give anything to have that experience every day! 

Thanks again every one for trying to help me through this. Never thought anything like this would ever happen to any of my babies. Things like this are meant to make us stronger. Right....?

myheart


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 7, 2009)

Or to appreciate and love our little bunnies/other pets/kids/life a little more?

Sure feels like crap tho. :cry2


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## myheart (Feb 7, 2009)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> Or to appreciate and love our little bunnies/other pets/kids/life a little more?
> 
> Sure feels like crap tho. :cry2



:yeahthat:


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## kherrmann3 (Feb 7, 2009)

How is Miss Luna doing this weekend?


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## myheart (Feb 8, 2009)

Luna seems to be feeling okay. I think she has spurts of energy at times and is more like herself. Other times, she seems distressed or distant. 

Not sure what to think or do at times,but I have deffinitely learned to be thankful every day I get out of bed and see her sun-shiny face looking back at me as though nothing were wrong. She can be such a character...!

myheart :sunshine:& my sun-shiny Luna Belle


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## myheart (Feb 8, 2009)

Arggggg!!!! She makes me so mad some times!! It probably isn't really her, it's more the situation...

So I had to takeLuna from Patch and Zappa (they were all cuddling up together) which totally broke my heart because they were all so content. I brought her into the bunny-room to give her the sub-q stuff, put her in place, inserted the needle with more confidence than usual, and started the fluids. I tried to keep her calm by stroking her cheeks and it was working... Then all of a sudden she gets the bug up her butt to jump out of the kennel. The needle comes out and spurts stuff all over. Only half of her dose went in. So I gave her a break to calm down myself.

I went back to give her the other half of her dose, and the little monster went and did it again. She just does not want to do it. I did both sticks with confidence and with success on the first try. The second time, I even tried to place a towel over her head to try to keep her calm for two minutes. That is all I needed from her was two minutes of her time to get the ordeal done with for the entire day! 

What do I try next? It's not like I am able to do a burrito for this procedure... Any suggestions? Treats won't work... I need to be able to do this myself because I want her to trust me especially if this is going to happen for the rest of her life. Maybe I need to pick a different time of the day. Maybemidafternoon isn't good for her. 

myheart


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## kherrmann3 (Feb 8, 2009)

I know this won't help you with the sub-q fluids, but it will help your nerves! The "fighter" kind of patients are the ones who make it through tough things! It's the fighters who can get really sick just to make a full recovery. I can just imagine how much of a nervous wreck you must be after that! I'd flip!

EDIT: Is there any way that you can do a bunny burrito with the area that you need to work with exposed? I've never had to do sub-q fluids before, so I don't know. Maybe sacrifice a towel for a bunny burrito, but cut a hole in the side that you need to work with. It would have her safely burritoed, but would have a little opening to make your life easier!


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## Amy27 (Feb 8, 2009)

myheart I feel your pain. Chase did the same thing on Saturday. We finally gave up giving the sub q's because she was so upset. Things I tried was the burrito. I wrapped her so the towel was open on top and the vet tech pulled the towel a little loose around her neck and stuck the needle in there. There was probably only about a two inch spot open from the towel on her neck. Other things we tired was taking her to a new area. We were giving them on the couch but she knew the floor was right there and kept going for it. I tried to move her to a spot where she wouldn't be sure how to excape such as the kitchen counter and I have tried the bath tub. Neither worked enough to get the full amount in. I think there will be good days and bad days. I wouldn't worry to much if one day you don't get the full amount in. There will probably be days where she is just not going to take it. Try not to be to hard on yourself about it. You are doing a great job.


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## naturestee (Feb 8, 2009)

Little booger!

Have you seen those carriers that have a door in the top? Put her in that, open the top door and run the fluid needle and tubing through there, then gently put the door down, maybe holding it with your hand so it doesn't squish the tube. Then Luna can't get anywhere.

I know I've seen them at Pet Supply Plus down here, but Petco/Petsmart might carry something like that too.


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 8, 2009)

You know, when my friends' daughter was sick with leukemia, they used to have to do blood draws and they would put something on her skin a couple of minutes before they did the stick - I think it's lidocaine? could you get some of that? or is it safe for her?


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## tonyshuman (Feb 9, 2009)

I bet lidocaine would be fine. They have it in aloe for sunburns. You might want to wash off the skin afterward though to make sure it doesn't get licked up. My only concern would be having to get all the way down to the skin (ie having to shave a small area, which Luna probably wouldn't like) to apply it.

One of those carriers would be perfect--I got mine at Petco.

Hugs to Luna and her crew today~~


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## TreasuredFriend (Feb 9, 2009)

Lidocaine was used to pre-numb Karla's nostril/lip crevice area so our vet could lance a built-up abscess (possibly from a sharp hay strand to her sensitive nostril opening). The vet watched so Karla would not lick the applied amount, and the tech and I were holding her because she detests anything applied to her body/skin, and counters with ... "Get that gook/bandage OFF of me!" Bunns sure have their way of being resistant. WRT lidocaine, our vets were cautious so their own skin would not go numb. Good suggestion if that would help the insertion delivery(?).
Is there a difference in the angle used for inserting a subQ needle stick?
I hope that Luna will get calmer; both of you need our hugs and verbal support.


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## myheart (Feb 9, 2009)

We just had a minor degree of success....

I used the cage that Katie used for her dated (Naturestee and TreasuredFriends will remember it). It actually has a divider panel that can be used to make the cage as small a necessary for potty training a puppy. I used that to make the cage as small as Luna could fit without hurting herself. I also closed Patrick and Zappa in the room with us. Both seemed to help as we were able to get most, if not all, of today's dose in. 

Maybe she just needed the support of her bondmates.... _sings_ "I get by with a little help from my friends. ...."

myheart


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## kherrmann3 (Feb 9, 2009)

*TreasuredFriend wrote: *


> Is there a difference in the angle used for inserting a subQ needle stick?


I know with dogs and insulin shots, it is best to go in at a 45[sup]o[/sup] angle versus a 90[sup]o[/sup] angle or any other angle, for that matter.


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## slavetoabunny (Feb 9, 2009)

*myheart wrote: *


> How will I be able to provide the comfort she needs when I am the one inflicting the pain?!!!
> 
> myheart


I definately feel for you there. I am the meanie that administers all the unpleasant stuff with the buns - meds, force feeding, nail clipping, etc. I think that's why they love daddy better than me .


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## myheart (Feb 9, 2009)

I had to make my last post a bit short with trying to get last minute things done before work.

As I was saying, I think that having Patch and Zappa in the room really helped Luna stay calm. When I left her out of the cage, she didn't seem as agitated as she had been. Luna was more inclined to hang out and not be in a tizz about getting out or showing aggression.

I was walking past the bunny-room less than five minutes after we finished with fluids and this is what I found....

















My trio providing comfort for each other. They sat this way for the entire hour prior to my leaving for work. I think Luna just needs her companions to support her during those five minutes of fluids. Poor Patrick was beside himself though. He wanted her out, and kept coming to me to get my help. He was so agitated himself, he didn't know what to do for her. He just wanted his true love with him.

I feel so bad for having tried to isolate her from the rest of the household thinking that quiet would be best. Luna just needed to know that somebun in the room loved her and waited for her. 

myheart


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## naturestee (Feb 9, 2009)

Aww. Sweet little bunners.

Don't feel bad about separating them before. It's whatyou thought was best and I'd have done the same thing. Sometimes it just takes a little trial and error to find the best way to do something. At least you know how to keep Luna more calm now!

Oh, and Loki gets upset just like Patrick whenever I'm doing something with Mocha like brushing her or clipping nails. Since I'm usually standing, he'll start digging at my feet and legs to get his little girl back.


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## myheart (Feb 9, 2009)

It just makes me cry to think what Patrick will ever do without Luna. They really were in love at first sight.Patch will have Zappa, but she isn't his first true-love.

I know I shouldn't think that way. I need to stay postive, but this is a totally different situation versus bladder stones. Bladder stones would have been delt with by now and Luna would be completely recovered. It's just not fair to Patrick...

myheart


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 9, 2009)

They look so sweet. They are comforting her...... they know she has something wrong. :cry2


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## naturestee (Feb 10, 2009)

Did Luna's test results come back yet? I didn't think it would take this long.


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## kherrmann3 (Feb 10, 2009)

*naturestee wrote: *


> Did Luna's test results come back yet? I didn't think it would take this long.


Same here! I am concerned about your little Dutch girl! I hope that everything is OK! :hug:


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## myheart (Feb 10, 2009)

No phone calls as of yet. I will call tomorrow to see if the results are back and also to see if I am able to get a bit more of the Tramadol. I don't think I will have enough to get Luna through the entire weekend, and I don't want to run out at a time when calls can't be placed and meds picked up. 

Luna does seem to be doing a bit better. I think my new system of giving Luna her fluids is working, at least for the second time. I might have to tweak it to give her even less space. She gets antsy toward the end, and the tech said she would because the skin starts to get tight and uncomfortable. But Luna really seems much more calm about it when she is done. She even circled the cage today to check it all out. Not is such a big hurry to get away, and readily took berries as my apology.

I will give her a break from fluids on Thursday because we start going every-other day then. She will still get the pain and anti-inflammatory meds for comfort. 

Luna was so alert and sun-shiny this morning!!! My baby girl just warms me up to no end.

myheart


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## kherrmann3 (Feb 10, 2009)

That is wonderful that she is being her happy sunny-bunny self!  Maybe she's not as ticked as you thought she was!


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## myheart (Feb 10, 2009)

*kherrmann3 wrote: *


> That is wonderful that she is being her happy sunny-bunny self!  Maybe she's not as ticked as you thought she was!



....Or maybe it is drug-induced....

myheart


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## kherrmann3 (Feb 10, 2009)

At least she's not giving you the druggy bunny butt or biting you!

:bunnybutt:


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## myheart (Feb 10, 2009)

*kherrmann3 wrote: *


> At least she's not giving you the druggy bunny butt or biting you!
> 
> :bunnybutt:



There should be a postive side to everything... :wiggle

btw... How are your kids doing with their new bond? I must check out your blog for photos and antics.

myheart


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## kherrmann3 (Feb 10, 2009)

*myheart wrote: *


> btw... How are your kids doing with their new bond? I must check out your blog for photos and antics.


They are doing well! Thanks for asking! I did start a 2009 blog. It's called Blog for the Bun-Buns - 2009 Version. I have a few pictures on there!  I started it on 01/01/09, which was Emma's first day with us.


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## tonyshuman (Feb 10, 2009)

Glad to hear of positive progress! Also glad to hear Luna's not a "mean drunk"--although I'm sure she's still acting mostly like herself.


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## Maureen Las (Feb 10, 2009)

*myheart wrote: *


> I had to make my last post a bit short with trying to get last minute things done before work.
> 
> As I was saying, I think that having Patch and Zappa in the room really helped Luna stay calm. When I left her out of the cage, she didn't seem as agitated as she had been. Luna was more inclined to hang out and not be in a tizz about getting out or showing aggression.
> 
> ...



OMG they are so sweet together. 
Just to let you know (not that Luna is going to leave you yet)

but I thought Beau would die when Babette died and he proved to be one tough cookie of a holland lop..has had a lot of medical problems but held his own. We can never know for sure how they will be...

but right now we are hoping that Luna will be doing fine with all the treatment that she is getting from her worried mom. 

'Hugs" 

Maureen


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## myheart (Feb 10, 2009)

Thanks Maureen. 

I think Patrick and I will be in the same boat if Luna has to leave us. I know Zappa really cares for Luna also, but Patch and Luna just have that chemistry. Luna is just the matriarch of the trio plain and simple. She picks the cuddle places and the others meet up with her at some points of the day.

I just have to count my blessings that I am able to provide some sort of care for her. As much as I wish I would have insisted on an x-ray last October when she wasn't feeling well, I have to move on and be happy with how ever long I will have my little girl. The only thing that could have been different, would have been the ability to change her diet sooner to prevent such a quick build-up of calcium. If it was meant to happen, it was meant to happen... just at a slower pace if I had known sooner....

myheart


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## Maureen Las (Feb 11, 2009)

Changing her diet sooner or having an x-ray done last Oct probably would not have altered the situation.

If you are like me you are reflecting back and blaming yourself for something that you really didn't have control over. I think that we all do that.
I had very sick rabbit (Babette) last year at this time and lost her in June; 

Ididn't even know that I had a problems developing with Gabriel last spring because Babette was taking up all my time and energy
I lost Gabriel1 month later( probably could not have been prevented because of terrible state he was in when I fostered and adopted him)

but there is a lingering feeling of 'blame' because I didn't focus on all my rabbits in a normal way when Babette was so ill.
Sometimes I think that we want to feel like we have control over a situation when we really don't. 

it just is....
I know that this is particularly hard on you because when I talked to you on the phone I could sense that you are a very empathic and sensitive person and you are feeling Luna's pain and also the potential for pain for the whole trio. 

I really know how that feels ..not good at all 
but just something that we have to 'get through" 
and at this point Luna seems to be holding her own.; she looks good and it sounds as if she is behaving like a happy bun

So that;'s good 
Maureen


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## tonyshuman (Feb 11, 2009)

I am 99% sure that her malnutrition led to the kidney damage. You have gone above and beyond in her treatment. Maureen's answer is much better than any one I could give, but I just wanted to chime in and say that you are such a great bunny mom to your snuggle crew. I would be a total wreck going through this.


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## myheart (Feb 11, 2009)

Thanks Maureen and tonyshuman for the support. I would like to think that Luna's stones would have happened no matter what would have been done sooner. But there is always that something in the back of my brain that says, "What if...." Patrick, Zappa, and I will just have to treasure every day we have with her. Luna is a jewel in our eyes.

I did call the vet today to ask about the urine test, and Luna does have an infection going on also. So more meds were picked up to try to get rid of the infection to help make her a bit more comfortable.

Today was not a good "needle-stick" day for me. Luna did her best to be patient with me. I should have never read the link on how to give sub-q's because that was all I could think about today... accidentally poking the needle through the other side of her tented skin. So after, what seemed the bazillionth try, I thought I had the needle in and started the fluids. Luna moved a little to adjust herself, and the needle came out with fuids spurting everywhere! I was so mad at myself and frustrated that I left her go. I couldn't stand the thought of trying to poke that little girl one more time. I was going to start the every-other-day schedule by giving her a break tomorrow, but I guess she had her break today.

So to ease Luna's pain, she ended up with the spoils of my defeat....











A brand new Oxbowtimothy tunnel!!!! :biggrin2:She was so excited, she couldn't wait to start nibbling on it right away. But, of course being the bunny-mom I am, I had to run for the camera to annoy her and Patrick. So she ended up trying to hide behind the tunnel to make me stop with the flashy-thing. Such a smart girlie....!!!

myheart


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## naturestee (Feb 11, 2009)

Poor thing. At least the reward was worth it! If I remember right, you only need to do fluids every other day now, right?

So what antibiotic is she on?


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## myheart (Feb 11, 2009)

*naturestee wrote: *


> Poor thing. At least the reward was worth it! If I remember right, you only need to do fluids every other day now, right?
> 
> So what antibiotic is she on?



Yes, the fluids are every-other-day now. I said something to Dr. Travis about her behavior, and he said that it sounds likeI might be getting enough fluids in to help de-toxify her system. I guess we will find out more next Tuesday forher follow-up appointment.

Leave it up to you to ask which antibiotic she is on....! Like I remember things anymore...?! I will have to wait until I get home to look at the bottle to let you know. He said it will be safe to use with the Tramadol and the metacam, but it is given three times a day. 

I feel so bad when I pick her up because she makes little sqeakery sounds when I do. The vet said that any movement will cause some discomfort to her because kidney stones hurt. I did ask to see her x-rays because of the discomfort when I pick her up. I just need to see for myself where they are, and to figure out if there is another way to scoop her up without so much discomfort.

myheart


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 11, 2009)

Awww :hug: I know you're just having such a time. I really don't think you could have done a thing different either!


It amazes me cause she's so adorable, looks so healthy!


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## Maureen Las (Feb 12, 2009)

*myheart wrote: *


> Thanks Maureen and tonyshuman for the support. I would like to think that Luna's stones would have happened no matter what would have been done sooner. But there is always that something in the back of my brain that says, "What if...." Patrick, Zappa, and I will just have to treasure every day we have with her. Luna is a jewel in our eyes.
> 
> I did call the vet today to ask about the urine test, and Luna does have an infection going on also. So more meds were picked up to try to get rid of the infection to help make her a bit more comfortable.
> 
> ...



spoiled and cute before she was sick..................
hope it doesn't go to her head.

she really looks good.


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## myheart (Feb 12, 2009)

I know Bo B and Maureen, Luna does look good for being so un-well. Her eyes are still bright and most of the time her personality is gleeming rays of sunshine and excitement. I wish you could see her when it is snack-time or berry-time! Oh the excitement just overflows...!! 

I find it so strange lately that I have been calling Luna, Maggie, who was my very first heart-bunny. I was driving home from work today thinking about how I wanted to arrange my time around Luna's meds, when all of a sudden I caught myself saying, "Then around two I have to give Maggie her antibotic...." Freaked me out!!! Maggie has been gone some four years, at least, and all of a sudden she is so on my mind. 

I know that Maggie probably died of kidney failure, but at the nice old ripe age of about ten years old. She was my very first bunny and my heart. She could have had other complications for all I know, but I am sure everything ended with her kidneys because she was drinking a lot of water and letting it all out as well. This was all before I joined RO and before I had a vet I could trust.

Has anyone else had this happen? Displacing the current bunny with a past bunny with similar problems? I know I picture Luna in my head as I think about meds and things for her, but it all comes out as, I have to do this for Maggie now. I am just not sure what to think....

myheart


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## Maureen Las (Feb 12, 2009)

Sometimes if I have really strong emotions about a pet that is presently sick I will call her/him by another pet's name that was sick in the past. 
It doesn't seem related to the specific illness as much as it does with the same emotions being evoked in me again in the present pet.


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## myheart (Feb 13, 2009)

*angieluv wrote: *


> Sometimes if I have really strong emotions about a pet that is presently sick I will call her/him by another pet's name that was sick in the past.
> It doesn't seem related to the specific illness as much as it does with the same emotions being evoked in me again in the present pet.



Maybe that is what I am going through. I am trying so hard to keep Luna happy, at least, that other things are taking a back seat to her schedule. I used to run my day according to what Maggie needed and was totally lost when she passed away. I just didn't have anyone to dump myself into. Now that Luna needs so much care, my schedule is all about her and her comfort. I caught myself saying Maggie's name this morning in reference to giving Luna her meds after I took the cats to the vet. **shakes head** ... thought I was starting to really lose it....

Naturestee, the antibiotic that Luna has is Chloramphenicol. Not sure what this one tastes like, but it is not one of her favorites. She really does make a yukie face for that one.

myheart


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## naturestee (Feb 13, 2009)

That's a good antibiotic. As long as it's not something weak like Baytril or sulfa drugs, I'd have questioned those. 

And Janet, I already know you've lost it.


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## tonyshuman (Feb 13, 2009)

I'm so glad to hear she's bright-eyed and bushy-tailed. Her excitement is how you know you're taking good care of her. :hugsquish:


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## myheart (Feb 14, 2009)

*tonyshuman wrote: *


> I'm so glad to hear she's bright-eyed and bushy-tailed. Her excitement is how you know you're taking good care of her. :hugsquish:



Along that line of thought....

Guess who was the Binky Queen this morning!!!!!

My little Luna Belle was feeling extra happy this morning, although I am not sure why. These weren't just little head-binkies or anything.... These were full-out-running-throwing-the-whole-body-into-it type of binkies!!! And not just one running binky, but at least two that I saw. I even had to do a double-take to make sure it wasn't Zappa who was showing off. Nope, it was My Luna Belle!!!

Luna is so amazing!!! There is a lesson to be learned from her.... :rabbithop:bunnydance:

myheart


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## naturestee (Feb 14, 2009)

Yay! Maybe she's feeling better with the antibiotics?


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## myheart (Feb 14, 2009)

*naturestee wrote: *


> Yay! Maybe she's feeling better with the antibiotics?



I know it's probably the antibiotics and the pain meds, but one could always hope some of the stones could be clearing out with all of the TLC.

What do you think, Naturestee, about what tonyshuman suggested with this having become the result of Luna's malnourished state. The more I think about it the more it makes sense. 

Luna was starved of all the nutrients she really needed, including calcium. She finally felt better with your care and the dentals. Then I get my hands on her and spoil the heck out of her with treats on lots of veggies she may not have had before. Her system is overloaded with calcium and isn't sure what to do with it. I know that Luna was off after her August dental already, which could have really been the start of the stones. So, from late March to, at least August, she was okay, but with calcium started to build. From August to January, the stones went undiagnosed because the kidneys still were doing their job. The only thing was the stasis that she went through because she didn't feel well as the only indicator that something was wrong with her. Does that all sound about right aside from any genetic possibility?

I know I shouldn't dwell on it, but I think Luna's experience could be a learning tool for others who take in bunnies who were not treated well. This could turn into a precautionary instance for bun owners not to overdo it with bunners who had it tough for the better part of their lives. Like, if a rabbit were mistreated through the age of five-ish, be careful with foods because their systems may not be functioning "normally" and unable to rid wastes as needed for senior health.

Just thoughts....

myheart


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## Amy27 (Feb 16, 2009)

How are things going with Luna? I am happy she was doing lots of binkies for you the other day. I am always thinking of both of you. 

I don't know the answers to your previous post but I wanted to say I don't think you are dwelling on anything. I sounds like you are just trying to find the cause so you can figure out how better to handle this and what to do. It does make me wonder though even if her body couldn't handle the calcium I wonder what makes one rabbit store the calcium in the bladder and others in the kidneys.


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## kherrmann3 (Feb 16, 2009)

*Amy27 wrote: *


> It does make me wonder though even if her body couldn't handle the calcium I wonder what makes one rabbit store the calcium in the bladder and others in the kidneys.


I would guess genetics. It's the same with people. Will and I eat almost the same foods, but he gets kidney stones. Well, he used to be more prone to them, but since I made him cut out foods rich in calcium, he's been fine. 

In the end, blame genetics.


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 17, 2009)

I'm glad she's happy 
I hope there's improvemnt tho!


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## myheart (Feb 17, 2009)

*kherrmann3 wrote: *


> *Amy27 wrote: *
> 
> 
> > It does make me wonder though even if her body couldn't handle the calcium I wonder what makes one rabbit store the calcium in the bladder and others in the kidneys.
> ...



That is what the vet confirmed again today, genetics. I asked about the possibility of this being caused by Luna's malnutrition, and he said that really had nothing to do with it. Naturestee even said that she was reading that if they are genetically predisposed to getting stones/sludge they will get the calcium from any source, including their own bones.

As to where the stones are formed, kidney or bladder, that I do not know. I wouldn't think that genetics discriminates location of stones so exactly. I would think that there would be other physiological things happening to detemine where the stones will form. That is one questionI do not know about....

myheart


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## myheart (Feb 17, 2009)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> I'm glad she's happy
> I hope there's improvemnt tho!



Bo B, thanks for sending the good thoughts, because they helped...!

Luna went to the vet today to get another blood panel done. It turns out that she is not in renal failure right now. Her last blood panel was all wonky because of the kidney infection. The vet said that there is significant improvement in the results. Luna will go back again in three more weeks for another urine culture to make sure the infection is gone. He also said that if she continues on this path,Luna should be able to have a dental at the beginning of April. 

So at this point we are going to continue the fluids every other day, Tramadol and metacam everyday, and the antibiotics for about one more week. I did get to see her x-ray this time, and did see that her left kidney is much worse than the right one. The vet said that we will probably never be able to get rid of all of the stones, but we should be able to keep her on a maintenance program with the sub-q'sto hopefully prevent more from forming.

We are breathing a small sigh of relief knowing that Luna's display of binkies and short bunny-500's are more than appropriate for her condition. She is feeling better, so why not express it the only way a bunner knows how?!!! Let the binkies and sprints begin....!!!! :biggrin2:

myheart


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## JadeIcing (Feb 17, 2009)

AWESOME!!!!!


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## naturestee (Feb 17, 2009)

Woot!


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 17, 2009)

YES!!! That's my girl! 

No Calcium rich veggies for her! just to be safe!


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## Amy27 (Feb 17, 2009)

I am so glad you finally got some good news. That is great. Keep getting better Luna.


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## kherrmann3 (Feb 17, 2009)

Woohoo! Go, Luna! Binky your little buns off! :rabbithop


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## tonyshuman (Feb 17, 2009)

Oh my goodness I'm so happy for you! Whew, and time to do a happy dance!
:bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance::bunnydance:
Of course she is still hyper-sensitive to calcium, but better health is ssuper!


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## myheart (Feb 17, 2009)

Thanks every one for the cheers to Luna's stable health. Luna is such a treasure and a trooper. I wish I had all of the special things in the world that she could ever want to let her know how much I love her. But, I guess, she might have to settle for a few blackberries or blueberries, since she doesn't have thumbs to leaf through catalogs to find stuff for her enjoyment. 

myheart


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## Maureen Las (Feb 17, 2009)

arty::happyrabbit:arty:arty::happyrabbit:
Great news; I couldn't be happier for both of you and Patrick too

Maureen


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## LuvaBun (Feb 17, 2009)

This is such good news :weee:. And what a great way Luna has of showing it 

Keeping you all in my thoughts

Jan


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## myheart (Feb 18, 2009)

Thanks so much, Jan and Maureen, for thesmall celebration. It is these small milestones that mean so much in the end. Even though her kidneys will probably never be free of stones, at least her kidneys are not failing either. I guess I will have to be happy with that bit of news. 

myheart


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## LuvaBun (Feb 18, 2009)

Any news like that is good news . And she is obviously feeling OK in herself, which is the main thing.

Jan


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## myheart (Feb 18, 2009)

Jan, I will give Luna extra cuddles and kisses tonight from you. 

I know you are still hurting over Pernod's passing. I am currently "sharing" Luna with Naturestee, TreasuredFriends, and Bo B. I would be more than thilled to share her with you also because you must ache for the bunnies who are hurting, especially the Dutchies.

You were so fortunate to have had Pernod in your life for 5 1/2 wonderful years. Luna's first Gotchya Day will be coming up at the end of March. I know her time will be limited with me, but I so look forward to as many Gotchya Days as she will spend with me. 

They are all such little characters and blessings. Peace to you, Jan, as you remember Pernod's Gotchya Day. :dutch

myheart


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## LuvaBun (Feb 18, 2009)

Thank you so much . How kind of you, and yes, I'd LOVE to share Luna (and Patrick and Zappa .... :biggrin2

There is just something about Dutch rabbits - every one I've come across have been amazing. And I know John wants another one, one day! They are personality plus 

Jan


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## myheart (Feb 18, 2009)

*LuvaBun wrote: *


> ...And I know John wants another one, one day! They are personality plus
> 
> Jan



Not to be off-topic, but I have a beautiful tortie boy, Andrew Allen,as my new foster-bun. I am sure we could arrange some sort of travel options for you... 

myheart


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 19, 2009)

Well, she can't thumb through catalogs, but if you held one for her she might pick out the best pages!! 

Bo helped Lexi pick out colored pencils for a project last night. Each time she had a "free" color to use (it was a map - of course the ocean was blue)... she had him pull out colors...... It was hilarious! and he had a good time with it!


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## myheart (Feb 20, 2009)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> Well, she can't thumb through catalogs, but if you held one for her she might pick out the best pages!!
> 
> Bo helped Lexi pick out colored pencils for a project last night. Each time she had a "free" color to use (it was a map - of course the ocean was blue)... she had him pull out colors...... It was hilarious! and he had a good time with it!



:roflmao: LMBO..... Bo is just too smart, you know!!!! Will he be going to college with Lexi to write her term papers also?!!!

myheart


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 20, 2009)

LOL! I think he hopes to get a doctorate himself!! He's such a booger!


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## myheart (Feb 23, 2009)

Just a quick vent.....!!!!

So today was fluids day. The last time we did fluids everything went extremely well. 

Today was a whole other story. I had everything all ready and in place, including a new needle. Brought Luna in so she could get used to the cage and confinement. Patrick was there with us to offer support. Every time I tried to put the needle in, Luna would flinch or jerk. Then I thought I finally had the needle in, and Luna started to thump. She has never thumped before, so I thought something was wrong for sure. So I ended up letting her go without even a tenth of the fluids she should have had today. I was so upset and in tears about not getting everything done the same way as last time. 

Arrrrggggg!!! I thought we had this all down pat, and then this happens. I just hate doing this so much!! I understand that it would cost a bazillion dollars for me to run Luna in someplace to have this done every other day for the rest of her life, but I just don't know what else to do on days like this. Has Luna learned how to get out of getting fluids? Or am I just not being assertive enough? The vets and techs make sound like it's a one-two-three you're done sort of thing. Well, it's not for some one like me....

So, now I sit here at work ready to break into tears because I feel like I totally let Luna down by not getting the fluids into her. I just have this awful thought that her kidneys will stop instantly overnight because I didn't get the fluids done. I know it won't happen, but I want her to stay on her schedule so there is no opportunity for something else to go wrong with her.

myheart


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## Amy27 (Feb 23, 2009)

I am sorry myheart. You are going to have your bad days. Even the vets and vet tech have there bad days. Nothing is always going to go as planned. It isn't anything you did wrong or could have done different. I would try not to beat yourself up about it. I think you have to allow both you and Luna to have days where things are not going to go as planned and that is ok. It happens with everything in life. Also when my vet tech comes over Chase isn't any better for her then she is for me. Chase is in her house and she knows it. So sometimes I think it isn't so much that the vet and vet techs are good, it is that the rabbit is already scared to be there so there attitudes don't come out as much. That is a good thing that Luna feels so comfortable around you and her home that she is going to let you know what she thinks about all this. 

Chase tries things to get away to and to let me know she is mad. Chase always flinches too, even at the vets. 

These buns don't understand what is going on but they know they don't like it and are going to show us in the only way they know how. But we know what is better for them. It does stink. I hate it everyday. 

I feel so bad that you are upset. I have been there. I know how much all of this really drains you. You are trying to do what is best but it is so hard. One thing you could check with your vet about is if Luna has a day like today can you give her more fluids tomorrow? or syringe her some fluids? I know my vet allows me to do that if Chase is having a day where she just won't cooperate. 

If you really want Luna to stay on schedule and feel better getting the fluids in today what I would do is try again when you get home from work. If she won't be still I would try to take her somewhere unfamiliar like the vets would be. I have thought of my garage, the back seat of my car or a friends house. 

Good luck. I hope you are feeling better now.


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## naturestee (Feb 23, 2009)

:hug:

It's ok. Less fluids one day isn't going to kill her, probably won't even harm her. If possible it would be a good idea to try again after work today, like Amy said. My thought is that there probably wasn't anything wrong with what you did today, it's just that Luna is starting to be her little Dutchie self, wrapping you around her paw and trying to avoid her icky medical treatments.


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## myheart (Feb 23, 2009)

*naturestee wrote: *


> :hug:
> 
> ..., it's just that Luna is starting to be her little Dutchie self, wrapping you around her paw and trying to avoid her icky medical treatments.



You're probably right. She has been such a wild-girl of late, that sometimes I don't know what gets into her. Today she did a little bunny-500 in the living room as I was getting ready for work. I had to do a double-take to see who was running around like a mad-bunny. It was Miss Luna Belle sitting in the middle of the living room!!! If I had not seen the x-rays myself, I would swear the vet was mistaken.

I tell ya though.... She is going to be the end of me yet!!!

myheart


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## LuvaBun (Feb 23, 2009)

I'm sorry you had such a bad day :hug:. I agree with trying again when you get home.

On the bright side - at least Luna felt well enough to thump and fool you into thinking something was wrong . We know these Dutchies are a cunning and clever breed 

Jan


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## myheart (Feb 23, 2009)

*LuvaBun wrote: *


> On the bright side - at least Luna felt well enough to thump and fool you into thinking something was wrong . We know these Dutchies are a cunning and clever breed
> 
> Jan



:yeahthat: They are so clever, are they not?!!! I don't know if I will ever be able to adopt any other breed (even though I really want a pair of flemmies since I am unable to have Oberon) because I have been hanging around my Dutch for so long now. Would any other breed even compare to what a Dutch is capable of? Maybe it would be nice to have a bunny who is not so clever as a nice change of pace...

I will probably try to do her fluids tomorrow. It is usually such a hub-bub when I get home with getting everyone cleaned up, and salads prepared and handed out. Lately, by the time I get salads out, Luna is pretty well tired of Patrick's advances that she has been coming to me so I am able to rescue her. I usually put her in Zappa's cage and close the door a bit. It usually deters Patrick long enough that he forgets what he really wants and waits ever-so nicely for his salad. Then, by the time there is peace from Patrick and Zappa being in bed with salads, that Luna is in such a tizz to get her salad. Like I said, Luna exudes such an energy when she is excited, that I can't help but be a good bunny-slave to make sure she get what she wants she wants it!!! 

I guess I just want there to be consistency in what we do to keep everything on schedule. The techs said to keep things the same so she gets used to the fluids. But then one day it is good to have Patrick in the room, and next day Luna is distracted by his presence. It just gets to be too much some days....

myheart


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## kherrmann3 (Feb 23, 2009)

Ha! Bunnies are so funny! That kind of behavior reminds me of dogs that hurt their paw and are limping and whining about it until they get to the vet. They fake it and bounce around at the vet until you leave and they're "safe". Little boogers! I am glad to hear that Luna is doing Bunny 500's! That's great news!


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## tonyshuman (Feb 23, 2009)

I agree, dutches are smart but because they're smart they can be boogers! When I'm cutting nails I have to not let Tony win at the "I'm gonna jump out and run away" game, or he'll always think he can beat me at nail trim time. I gave in when I first had him on trying to keep him in a cage and now there's no stopping him. He purposely tests his boundaries--running out the front door into the apartment building's foyer whenever possible and thumping so that I know he's "escaped", chewing on something he's not supposed to and looking up at me to see if I noticed, etc etc. 

I think once Luna knows it's going to be a fact of life for her and there's no arguing about it, she may eventually realize that it makes her feel better and then she'll be more willing to sit still. It's hard not to give in and give her a break, but doing so will make her realize there's really no arguing with mom about it. Of course, missing one day isn't going to be a problem, though. Just don't tell her that. [[hugs]]


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## myheart (Feb 24, 2009)

:bunny18Yay, we finally did it!!!! Luna finally had her fluids today, and only fussed a little bit! 

I decided to give her fluids an hour early in case I needed to make another attempt if the first efforts didn't go well. This time there was no flinching, jumping, or thumping. She did get fuss towards the end because her skin was probably getting tight. I toldLuna she absolutely had to get the full amount today to keep her kidneys flushed. Not sure if that helped her at all, but it certainly made me not back down to her fussing. So, yay, she had the full amount!!! I felt so bad letting her go with the huge "fluid hump" on her shoulder, but I know it is for her own good.

Thanks everyone for the pep-talk. She made me such a total wreck yesterday with her silliness. So today was such a relief to get the fluids done and out of the way. I don't know what I would do without the support and strength from all of you! 

myheart (& Luna Belle :rabbithop)


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## naturestee (Feb 24, 2009)

Yay! Was Patrick there? I wonder if he makes Luna want to get away more sometimes. Who wants to get stuck with a needle when they can snuggle with their love?


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## myheart (Feb 24, 2009)

No Patrick today, just the two of us.

I think it actually made a difference to give the fluids an hour early according to Luna's bunny-activity schedule. I still caught her during her napping time, so she seemed a bit more calm than she did yesterday. 

I think if I had waited the extra hour, she would have been more awake and foraging for foods or trying to get groomings from some-bun. Maybe that was the problem yesterday, she was ready to get into trouble when I wanted her to be good/calm. So Patrick could have compounded the issues of what Luna thought she had on her own agenda planner, which were foods and mischief.

I will have to consult Luna's agenda planner from now on to make sure we are on the same page. She is probably more organized with her planner than I am with mine...

myheart


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## LuvaBun (Feb 24, 2009)

*myheart wrote: *


> I will have to consult Luna's agenda planner from now on to make sure we are on the same page. She is probably more organized with her planner than I am with mine...
> 
> myheart


Had to smile at this 

Great that she got all her fluids today - she probably understood every word you said too 

Jan


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## Bo B Bunny (Feb 24, 2009)

You are doing a great job for her! and it's hard to see them with the fluid, but it's what's best...... it's a good thing even if it doesn't look like it.

Good girl, Luna..... *kisses*


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## Amy27 (Mar 4, 2009)

myheart, How are you and Luna doing? Does Luna go back to the vet next week? I am thinking of both of you. I hope you guys get some good news when you go back.


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## myheart (Mar 5, 2009)

Hi Amy, I just posted on your thread, and then I saw that you posted here...lol

Yes, Luna goes in for another urinalysis on March 10th to make sure that her kidney infection is gone. It will be about two weeks since she ended her antibiotics for that. I am not sure if the doctor will want another x-ray at that time, or if he will wait until April 1st when I take both Patch and Luna down for dentals. He had said last time that Luna should be able to have a dental if everything checks out okay. I do hope she will be able to have a dental because I was giving her a cheek-rub last night and she started honking right away. I moved my hand to pet her back, and the honking stopped. So, I think her teeth could be starting to hurt her.

Giving fluids is still a horrible time. I keep reminding myself, and Luna, that we need to do it to keep her somewhat healthy. It doesn't help much, but we have been getting pretty close to the whole amount of fluid in. I have found, though, that I do need to give the fluids while she is still in her food-coma from her noon salad. After two o'clock, she gets silly and starts up with her running around and being naughty. It is virtually impossible to keep her quiet forfive minutes when she is ready to be silly. :biggrin2:She is a heart-breaker she is...

myheart


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## myheart (Mar 5, 2009)

I know I should have posted about this past weekend, but I guess I just have to expect "off days" for Luna.

It started on Friday going into Saturday/Sunday. Luna didn't eat all of her night-time salad on Friday, and by Saturday she really wasn't excited about anything. I could tell she didn't feel well, but it is still a guessing game as to whether it is her kidneys or just a gassy/upset tummy. So I started all of the usual stuff... pedialyte, simethicone, pineapple juice,wet green, and lots of hay (in case she wanted a nibble).

By Saturday night Luna was in pain even with the Tramadol. I felt so bad for her because I just didn't know what to make her comfortable. I woke up around two in the morning, and I knew that I needed to check on Luna then even though I had an alarm set to go off in another thirty minutes to check on her. Poor baby was all bunched up in her cage. She really was in pain...

I took her out and gave her a bit more juice to keep her hydrated. Then I sat with her on the sofa. I put her on my chest all rapped up in a blanket. I knew I needed to keep her warm because her little ears were so cold. So we sat all bundled up and I gave her light tummy rubs to help ease the pain. It took Luna a bit to relax and understand that rubs and warmth were a good thing. Once she did relax, we sat for at least an hour together. By that time she started to get fussy again, so I thought I should put her in her pen in case she needed to potty or something. She immediately stretched a bit and looked so much more relaxed. 

I called Naturestee the next day to find out more about the Tramadol. She said that the drug only takes away the pain and that it does not alter the personality into a drugged stupor. So the pain Luna was having was probably another stone passing. Naturestee said that Luna would have to be on some really strong stuff to dull that sort of pain. 

By Sunday evening, Luna was feeling so much better. She ate all of her night-time salad and was ready to cuddle with Patch and Zappa. At least I know that Luna's new "sick place" is in Zappa's litter pan. I always feel bad when I have to put Zappa to bed and I have to take Luna out. I even tried to setup a litter pan the same way for Luna, but it was not good enough. It has to be Zappa's pan or nothing at all.

So anyhow, Luna is back to her sunshiny self again. She was so excited for her apple snack for breakfast this morning that she just looked silly trying to get to the snack first. Her excitement makes me so happy, yet I end up in tears every time.

myheart


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## tonyshuman (Mar 5, 2009)

Saw your post in the thread about Chase, how Luna's personality has blossomed and you are sad that you didn't catch this earlier because it means her life will be shorter, now that she's finally come into her own personality. I wanted to say that she may be such a unique bunny now because she's feeling much better than she has for a long time. I think she may have had subclinical problems with calcium metabolism for a very long time, but it just was putting stress on her system and having her not feel super, but not feeling so bad that you or the vet noticed. 

For instance, people who get diabetes just feel kinda bad for months before serious problems show up--and some pretty serious and irreversible damage can be done to your organs in this time before you develop full-blown symptoms. My bf developed type 1 in his late teens, and he just felt sluggish, tired, and yucky for months. His eyesight deteriorated, and eventually he went to the doctor because he could barely see. That's how he learned he had diabetes. 

Another example is that I was clinically depressed from probably about 6th grade through 12th grade. I didn't know because middle school sucks for everyone and that's when people are starting to develop their personalities, so it was thought by those around me that I was just a sad, quiet, insecure kid. I performed really well at school and had a few friends, so I wasn't quite like all the other kids, but I still wasn't too far from average to be noticed. It finally came to a head in my senior year, because of all the stress of college applications, tests, etc, and I was crippled by my depression, couldn't do anything, wanted to die, etc. I finally was told that I had some genetic predisposition for depression, and I got some treatment, and I finally felt like myself again, which I hadn't really felt in years. It was actually a surprise to me that I could just be happy to get up in the morning. It wasn't anyone's fault for not noticing, and everything's fine now. 

Something like this could have been happening with Luna--she's been metabolizing calcium poorly for years, but it never was so bad that anyone noticed (not to mention that she wasn't very well looked after until just over a year ago when she was rescued). She just didn't seem "herself" because she wasn't feeling tip-top, but nobody noticed because she had other health problems that were more urgent and she wasn't taken care of well. The gradual stress on her kidneys built until they stopped working at full capacity, and she got stones and all of these things that you can see and measure.

It may be sad that you won't get to enjoy Luna's lovely personality for years and years, as you would love to do. However, it is WONDERFUL that she is feeling well enough to be herself again. It means that these years you have with her may be shorter than some people will have with their rabbits, but they will be very rich.:hug:


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## myheart (Mar 5, 2009)

tonyshuman, thanks for sharing your stories. You are probably very right about Luna. Her problem with being able to eliminatecalcium probably did take a backseat to all of her other health problems until Naturestee rescued her and figured everything out to make her feel better. At this point I have to keep in mind that she is doing well for her condition. It is so difficult to not cry while enjoying Luna's rays of sunshine. She has really become my heart-bunny and I do not know what I will do if she starts renal failure. I know I will be such a basket-case that no one on the forum will be able to tolerate me anymore (lol). 

I just wanted Patch and Luna to grow old together. I would never want Patch to go through another loss like he did with Benjamin's passing. It broke my heart to see him depressed. Luna is the love of his life, the matriarch of the trio, and the rays of sunshine in my world.

myheart


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## LuvaBun (Mar 5, 2009)

myheart, the way you write about Luna is so touching. It's obvious the love you have for her, and I know she feels it.

Glad to hear that you are managing the fluids. I expect it's going to be 'normal' for Luna to have some bad days, especially if she's passing the stones. But you sitting with her on your chest, keeping her warm and giving tummy rubs sounds like a wonderful way to bond 

Jan

ps - Don't worry about us 'not tolerating' you - not gonna happen :hug:

Jan


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## myheart (Mar 5, 2009)

Thanks Jan. It means a lot to me to have some support and encouragement from other forum members. And, yes, all of this has been a bonding experience for Luna and I. When I was holding her that early morning, I realized how much I miss holding a bunny of their free-will to be held. I used to hold Maggie (my first heart-bunny) every night for an hour or so. She never minded, so it became our routine. The comforts of holding a relaxed and calmbunny are indescribable to anyone who has never had the experience. For some reason they just "fit" on you like a baby fits on his mother. They just fill that empty place right over ones heart and just within reach for a kiss.

I talked with Naturestee quite a bit on Sunday about Luna and her condition. I have pretty much come to the conclusion that Luna belongs to Naturestee when she is not feeling well, and she is all mine when she is feeling well and silly. I think Naturestee guessed something was wrong when I started the conversation with, "Guess what _your_ rabbit is doing now...". She seems willing to accept the "not well" Luna as hers. 

So if you want, Jan, I will also tell you what _your_ rabbit is doing when she is not feeling well because the cuddles will stay with me....  

myheart


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## naturestee (Mar 5, 2009)

Yup, I get the crazy and/or sick animals. Luna fits in well with all the others, not to mention me and James with our fibro. But only when she's sick.

Oh, and you're already a basket case and I tolerate you!:biggrin2:


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## myheart (Mar 5, 2009)

*naturestee wrote: *


> Oh, and you're already a basket case and I tolerate you!:biggrin2:


I know you meant that with all of the love in your heart....


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## kherrmann3 (Mar 5, 2009)

*myheart wrote: *


> *naturestee wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Oh, and you're already a basket case and I tolerate you!:biggrin2:
> ...


Wow... People from this state are dysfunctional... :hyper:

... I couldn't be happier here!


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## myheart (Mar 6, 2009)

*kherrmann3 wrote: *


> *myheart wrote: *
> 
> 
> > *naturestee wrote: *
> ...



I think it is just Naturestee. :coolness:

On the other hand, maybe it is just me.... :?

myheart


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## Boz (Mar 8, 2009)

Yay! I'm glad she's doing well! :biggrin2:


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## myheart (Mar 8, 2009)

*Boz wrote: *


> Yay! I'm glad she's doing well! :biggrin2:



Thanks Boz. You have some uncanny timing... Wefinished giving sub-q fluid just minutes ago. My hands are shaking so much, but we were able to give the whole amount today. I am so happy about that because I am usually only able to get about half the amount in due to Luna getting fussy. I just don't want her to get hurt by the needle, so if she fusses too much, I get anxious and stop the whole thing. 

Luna's next appointment is this coming Tuesday. It is to check her urine to make sure she if free of kidney infection. Hopefully she is, because I think she is in need of a dental which she is already scheduled for on April first.

Thanks again Boz for your timing. Sometimes I just need that support to know that I am doing the right thing by sticking her with a needle every other day. I feel much better about our session. Not so many tears shed today....:cry2

myheart


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## Boz (Mar 8, 2009)

Aww Hang in there!
She seems pretty tough, I think she'll pull through!

Luna's not only strong herself, so are you!


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## myheart (Mar 9, 2009)

*Boz wrote: *


> Aww Hang in there!
> She seems pretty tough, I think she'll pull through!
> 
> Luna's not only strong herself, so are you!



I only wish I could be half as strong and brave as Luna is. She deserves the best of everything for being so good about all of this. I know I am hoping the best for her appointment tomorrow. I need to know that something positive is happening for her, like maybe all of the stones gone from at least one kidney would be a good thing.

I will update after her appointment...

myheart


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## kherrmann3 (Mar 9, 2009)

Good luck with the appointment! ray:


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## Maureen Las (Mar 9, 2009)

Hi myheart

I just wanted to ask you not to get your hopes up real high for extreme changes as it may not happen ...
Look for anything positive small or large as you don't want to set yourself up to "crash' if things are not as well as expected.

I can see that you are setting yourself up for big changes 

I hope very much for big changes also but then a minor positive change might make you crash when actually any inprovement is good 
With chronic problems it is not easy to be on an emotional rollercoaster 
I tend to do the opposite of you
I will think the worst so I can be surprised with the good news 

although that is extreme thinking also 

try to stay in the middle.

and I hope so much there is a lot of good news for you and Luna


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## LuvaBun (Mar 9, 2009)

ray: Hoping all went well at the appointment

Jan


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## Amy27 (Mar 9, 2009)

I will be thinking of you and Luna tomorrow for her appointment. You both are so strong. I will be looking for the update tomorrow.


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## Maureen Las (Mar 10, 2009)

ray:and.....


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## kherrmann3 (Mar 10, 2009)

How did it go? :nurse: We're still hopin' for the best! *fingers crossed*


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## naturestee (Mar 10, 2009)

Hey Myheart! How is _your_ girl doing?


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## LuvaBun (Mar 10, 2009)

onder:

Jan


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## myheart (Mar 10, 2009)

Luna's appointment was okay today. She is always such good girl for all of this stuff. The results are kind of the good news / bad news sort of thing...

Another x-ray was done because of the obvious pain Luna had from stones passing two weekends ago. The last x-ray had actually shown stones in her bladder, which I was not really told about, but those are the stone that passed according to today's x-ray. So the sub-q's are helping to flush some of the stones out.

The bad news is that her right kidney is starting to show more of a build-up of stones when x-rays are compared. Neither kidney is enlarged at this point, just filling with stones. The blood panel done today shows that her kidneys are functioning at this point. 

Luna is still a candidate to have her dental done on April first. I guess we will have to see how tests result turn out then to see if she could, or should, have her teeth done.

I know the doctor was trying to be practical in telling me that the prognosis for kidney stones is never a good one. Decisions may have to faced at some point.... At this point, Luna says she is happy and hungry (all of the time). She is still very silly and does lots of binkies. So, the decision-bridge is not one that has to be crossed anytime soon. 

Healing vibes and thoughts are still appreciated. Luna is one tough little girl. I guess, if anything, I have to keep some hope alive that she will be okay for as long as possible (I'm think a few moreyears of putting up with Patrick's hugging behavior ).

myheart


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## Maureen Las (Mar 10, 2009)

Well as long as she is happy and active and enjoying herself that is the most important thing. 

I agree that the long term prognosis doesn't look too good but (I know this is hard) just take one day at a time. 
You may be able to slow the whole process down with meds and subq's and even now there is no reason to think that the short amount of time that you treated her would make a huge difference 

I had a chronic renal failure dog for years who was active and happy


You also could go the route of maybe seeing another specialist who may be able to do more than your present vet but I'm sure that would be very costly....
or go the alternative route in addition to the western 
Does the vet have any idea what is causing this as you lowered the calcium , did fluids etc.
Could there be any other issues ?
Anyway I'm sure that you don't feel particularly elated but just hang in there
"hugs x2"
Maureen

is their any changes in medications.?


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## myheart (Mar 10, 2009)

Maureen, there are no changes in her medications at this time. I really thought he would want me to give Luna fluids everyday or even a larger amount. But that didn't even change. 

Like I said, I know the doctor was trying to be nice about what is happening with Luna. I am not going to lose her yet. If stones are actually passing into her bladder, I have to take that as a good sign that they are able to be eliminated to a degree. So we are going to keep on trying...

myheart


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## Bo B Bunny (Mar 10, 2009)

My girl ...... I'm sorry she's having pain and issues, but she's obviously hanging tough and being cared for wonderfully.

ray:


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## kherrmann3 (Mar 11, 2009)

Do you know what the stones are made of? Calcium? I was just reading a mini-rant by someone in Wisconsin (this was on Craigslist) and it was saying how WI water is high(er) in Calcium in certain places. *shrug* Maybe that could help, even if it helps a tiny bit...

Good to know that's she's not getting worse. She will still continue to be her adorable, Dutchy self! 

*hugs*


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## Amy27 (Mar 11, 2009)

I am so glad you finally got some good news. I hope Luna keeps those stones small so they can all pass. She is such a little fighter. I think we need to see more pictures.


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## kherrmann3 (Mar 12, 2009)

I concur! :wiggle


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## myheart (Apr 1, 2009)

:woohoo*Luna had her teeth done today!!!!!* :biggrin2:

I talked with Dr. Travis after the bunnerswere ready to go, and he had said that Luna's kidney values looked spot-on. He actually looked very pleased about her blood panel results. She won't have to go back for another eight weeks when Patrick gets his next dental done. At that point, Luna will just have an x-ray and probably a blood test to find out how things are going. She will now be on a sixteen week dental schedule so as not to stress her system too much. The only thing I have to watch for is a decrease in her appetite, and I don't think that will happen anytime soon because she is such a little piggie with her snacks (she actually had a blackberry stain running up the white part of her nose from this morning's berry-snack ).

So now we don't just get to celebrate her first Gotchya Day (this past Sunday), but we also get to celebrate her kidneys doing well. It's like bonus points for all that she has had to go through these past few months!!! 

Thanks for all of the good vibes everyone!!! They are really working!!! :biggrin2:

myheart


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## kherrmann3 (Apr 1, 2009)

:headflick:Woohoo! Hooray for healthy, happy kidneys!


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## Maureen Las (Apr 1, 2009)

I am so HAPPY for youand Luna !


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## myheart (Apr 1, 2009)

Thanks for celebrating with me k~! :biggrin2:

Sorry to say, but the blood panelonly shows that the kidneys are doing their job for the time-being. The only thing that will show whether or not there is any improvement, would be an x-ray. 

Dr. Travis opted not to do an x-ray this time, even though I said it would be okay because I am curious tosee myself. He must have been happy enough with the panel results showing good,or much better than expected,kidneyfunction. 

So, Luna will still need good vibes for a while longer. I am hoping that there will be a reduction of stones by the end of summer. I hope that some fresh air, sunshine, and less stress from being cooped up in the house will help her heal a bit more. I am already thinking about picking up a fourth exercise pen for more binky-room. 

myheart


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## Amy27 (Apr 1, 2009)

I am happy you got soem good news today. I hope the good news continues. Is she still getting the sub q fluids? I am still sending you and Luna good vibes. You both are doing such a good job.


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## myheart (Apr 1, 2009)

ThanksMaureen and Amy for the well wishes!!! :weee:

Yes, Amy, Luna still has to get the sub-q's. She will probably have to have them for quite a long time, if not for the rest of her life. I will hope and pray that Luna will beat the odds by eliminating more stones and become stone-free by October. Without hope, no one would be able to move mountains.... Many people say that prayers heal cancer victims. Why couldn't prayers help my little bunny beat the odds and the prognonsis to become stone-free? 

How is Chase doing lately? Is he still sludge/calcium-free? How often do you have to take him back for testing now? Any different treatments?

myheart


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## LuvaBun (Apr 1, 2009)

:yahoo:I cannot tell you how happy I am to hear this. Just shows that all your hard work giving Luna the sub-q's is having a positive effect. And, of course, Luna's attitude probably has something to do with it too

Oh, and how did I miss her first Gotcha Day?  I am so sorry. Tell Luna to forgive me, and give her lots of ear scritches and nose rubs (and a few treats, too)!

Jan


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## myheart (Apr 1, 2009)

Thanks Jan! Yes, I do believe you are right about Luna's attitude being a big help to her overall health. She is just the funniest little bunner you ever wanted to see!! :biggrin2:

You may have missedLuna's Gotchya Day because I only posted about it on Patch and Luna's thread. I didn't make a separate thread on the forum for it. Here the link to the page (you might have to scroll to the bottom of the page). I posted a few then and now pics of her...

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=34638&forum_id=6&page=6

myheart


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## Amy27 (Apr 1, 2009)

*myheart wrote: *


> ThanksMaureen and Amy for the well wishes!!! :weee:
> 
> Yes, Amy, Luna still has to get the sub-q's. She will probably have to have them for quite a long time, if not for the rest of her life. I will hope and pray that Luna will beat the odds by eliminating more stones and become stone-free by October. Without hope, no one would be able to move mountains.... Many people say that prayers heal cancer victims. Why couldn't prayers help my little bunny beat the odds and the prognonsis to become stone-free?
> 
> ...



Chase is doing good thanks for asking. She is still calcium/sludge free.We are waiting for her blood work to come back to make sure the Lasix isn't causing any problems and if all is ok she will go once a month for her lab work. She will have to get that done as long as she is on the Lasix. She is getting sub q's once a week, Lasix, some banana and raisins for the potassium every day and that is it. 

I think it is very important to have hope. I am sure Luna can feel your hopeful/positive vibe and I am sure that helps her. I read in _When Your Rabbit Needs Special Care _book about how to avoid caregiver burnout and it was so inspiring and made me feel so good. When I read it I was still going through a lot with Chase and I really thought you would enjoy it to. It really makes you feel good. I wanted to type it out and post it for you because I think you would find it motivating like I did, I have just been lazy. I should really do it, it is only like 4 pages long.


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## naturestee (Apr 1, 2009)

How is my girl recovering? Is it like after her other dentals or different? Give her some nose rubs and kisses from me!

Amy, no need to type all that out! I think Janet might have the book, if not she can borrow it from me next time she's down here.


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## Bo B Bunny (Apr 2, 2009)

:cry2HAPPY TEARS!! :balloons:

Way to Go little Luna!


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## myheart (Apr 2, 2009)

*Bo B Bunny wrote: *


> :cry2HAPPY TEARS!! :balloons:
> 
> Way to Go little Luna!



Thanks Bo B, I will be sure to tell her that you are excited for her.

Naturestee, Luna did fine for her recovery after the anesthetic. She was more than happy to eat her salad and berries... she was one hungry bunny!!! 

I think I was more worried about Patrick later in the evening, than I wasabout Luna. He just seemed to be "not with it" at times. He ate his snacks just fine also, but whenhe was resting, he looked really out of it. Made me worry a bit until he woke up and started thumping for his Luna-girl. I think I am going to have the blood test done for him the next time he goes for a dental just to make sure his systems are still able to take the anesthesia. The vet keeps saying he is running out of tooth material, but they keep growing....

myheart


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## myheart (Jun 3, 2009)

Just wanted to make a quick post about Luna's vet visit today (eight weeks later)...

Luna' vet said that her kidneys show no, or very little, change from her last x-ray. No stones in her bladder, right kidney full of stones, and left kidney about half-full of stones. Blood test was okay.One of the values was on the high-end of normal, but was still okay.

Patrick had another dental done. His upper teeth showvery little to nogrowth meaning they are about done. His bottom teeth are still growing. Just afraid he might have to have the bottom teeth pulled if the upper teeth are gone at some point.

After the vet visit, we went for a visit with naturestee. I think she was very happy to see how her Luna Belle is doing. Both Luna and Patrick were busy chinninganything and everything to make sure naturestee's bunners knew somebun else was in their domain. :coolness:Luna and Patrick were so busy and very alert for the half-hour visit. Then I could tell that Luna was ready for nap-time because she was getting sleepy-bunny face. So we packed up, headed for home, had salads and berries, and took naps. Thanks, naturestee,for having us over and for the garden-fresh greens. The green-leaf lettuce was a hit for afternoon salad today. We will try the other greens for salad tomorrow. I have to figure out how/where I am going to grow my own cilantro....

myheart


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## tonyshuman (Jun 3, 2009)

Poor Luna girl. It is good news, however, to hear that things aren't going in the wrong direction.

I hope Patch doesn't have to loose all his teeth! I didn't know that rabbits' teeth ever stopped growing. I guess having no teeth might go well with the whole dirty old man image he has, though! 

I'm so glad you got to get together with naturestee. You two did such a great thing for Ms. Luna, getting her a healthy weight, and a happy home. I thought of those first pictures of Luna today, and look how far she's come!


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## LuvaBun (Jun 3, 2009)

I guess this news is kind of a double edged sword :expressionless. It's a shame that her kidneys still have so many stones, but at least things are no worse, and her bladder is clear. She is such a brave little girl!

And I didn't realise that bunnies teeth stopped growing either. Does the vet think that the bottom ones may stop as well?

Glad to hear you all got to visit Naturestee - _and_ she let you leave with both bunnies 

Give all your Dutchie Train a hug from here

Jan


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## myheart (Jun 4, 2009)

*LuvaBun wrote: *


> Glad to hear you all got to visit Naturestee - *and she let you leave with both bunnies
> *
> Give all your Dutchie Train a hug from here
> 
> Jan



LOL Jan.... I think she would have noticed if I tried to leave with Oberon also... Trust me, I try each and every time to get him in my clutches.

I think Naturestee is all good with Luna being my baby. She knew the situation would be temporary and that she was the "bad guy" giving Luna meds and such during her foster time. Naturestee even said that Luna didn't feel comfortable being picked up by her. So when it was time to go, I just scooped Luna up, and Naturestee just looked so surprised because of the grunts and wiggles Luna gave her. Luna just melted in my arms...

I didn't know that rabbit teeth stopped growing either. I think Bo B said that horse teeth are that way also. They have just so much tooth material for grinding on the hay, then at some point, theystop growing and just ware down.

Yes, I will give all of the babies a hug from you, as well as a smooch or two on the head....

myheart


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## myheart (Sep 24, 2009)

I wasn't going to update this thread fora while yet, but I noticed that it was linked with the "Urinary Tract Problems" thread in the RO Library. So I thoughtit best to do the update aslearning information for other members with buns whomayhave kidney stones. So here goes...

Luna went back to the vet earlier this week because she had a very painful/bad weekend. Things seemed a bit "off" for her the weekprior, which prompted me to make the appointment. But that weekend was bad because she started to sit all hunched up and grinding her teeth. The appointment couldn't come soon enough...

The vet tookx-rays and did a blood test. Thex-rays show that the stones are getting biggernow, which means there is less functioning kidney mass to filter toxins.Luna had pee'ed while theyhad her in the back, and the pee was basically water with little to no color. Another sign that liquids are just flowing through her system without taking any toxins out. The bigger stones are also the cause for the increased pain she is experiencing.

The blood test shows that all ofher levels have tripled since her last blood test. Manyof the values are dangerously high for rabbits. Luna had becomevery wobbly over the weekend, and the high levels of toxins were the reason forthe behavior. Luna still knew what she wanted to do and could still move about the house, but was unstable doing them. 

The only treatment Luna will receive at this point will be fluids every day instead of every other day. The hope is that the fluids will help some of the toxin levels come down to a livable/functioning level. I am actually able to see a difference before giving the fluids and after. Luna seems unstable before, and very demanding for her blackberry after Dsome things don't change for my Luna Belle and her berry habit).The pain medication, Tramadol, was also doubled in strength and dose so that Luna will be able to cope with the pain a bit better. The metacam was dropped and taken outof her medication regime because it is hard on the kidneys.

So this is the beginningof the end for Luna.If the fluid treatments work, I may have another month or two with her. If they don't work, maybe a week or two. In the end, the toxin levels will become too high for her body to handle them. Her organs will start to shut down and she will slip into a coma. She will then pass away in her sleep. If I feel that she is in too much pain as the end draws near, the vet will assist her with Patrick and Zappa present. He will administer a sleep/pain med first, wait for that to take affect, and then administer the heart-stopping med.

Will post more as I notice differences in her behavior or looks. For now, she is enjoying everything she has always had... her salads and berries, her time to run around the house, and her cuddle-time with Patrick and Zappa. Nothing has changed for her other than the treatments we do.

myheart


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## kirbyultra (Sep 24, 2009)

:hug:

ray:for you and Luna.


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## kherrmann3 (Sep 24, 2009)

I am so sorry Janet. This must be so hard for you :hug:


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## Pipp (Sep 24, 2009)

:sad:


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## tonyshuman (Sep 24, 2009)

Huge hugs to you, Janet, and all of the dutches. I know she loves to be with you and her buddies and her life has done a complete 180 from where she was before. Although you won't get to spend years and years with her, the time you have with her will be so much more special because she is such a special girl. Ah now I'm crying too.


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## Amy27 (Sep 24, 2009)

I thought about you and Luna today when I saw a reply from you in Let Your Hare Down. I am so sorry the news isn't good. Claire said what I wanted to say, but better so I will Ditto her. I will be thinking of you and Luna.


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## myheart (Sep 24, 2009)

To tell you the truth, I think I am cried-out at the moment....:tears2:

Thanks every one for the hugs and prayers. Luna is responding very well to the fluids and the pain meds, but it has only been two days. She is still herself --- still sits in the kitchen doorway asking for treats ever so nicely , hanging out with Patrick and Zappa (I have some cute pics from this morning), running around the house, and trying to steal hays from the piggies and veggies from Zappa. Luna is still Luna and she melts my heart every time I see her being herself.

Things happen for reasons we may never know. Luna came into my life maybe whenLuna needed to learn to trust someone, and I needed someone to nurture andlet into my heart. A year and a half is not a long enough timetogether because we both finally have what each of us needs. It is not fair for either of us to have to part earlier than we would ever want to. The unfair part is that I didn't get to have Luna in my life from the time she was a baby. It is unfair that she had to deal with any abuse or neglect from a past owner, when I could have been showering her with love from the beginning. And now, to have her taken from me...

I am glad thatmy trio formedwhenit did, because Patrick will still have Zappa. She isn't his true-love, but they enjoy being together and Zappa is learning to groom him more. I was in shockwhen I saw her actively taking care of Patch. I think they will be okay, but I know my heart will break.

Thanks again for all of the support given by members of RO. It really does help to know that others out there really do care about my bunnies.

myheart


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## kahlin (Sep 24, 2009)

It sounds like you have given her an amazing home and loved her to pieces. I'm sure she knows that. This must be heartbreaking for you. I will keep you in my thoughts.


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## Maureen Las (Sep 24, 2009)

I am so sorry 

this also happened with my dog (heart dog -Bonne). She did not have stones but went into acute kidney failure after living with a chronic form of kidney disease for years. 

She also because weak and woblly and vomited her food.I gave he sub q fluids for a about a month and it came to a really bad crises soI had her PTS .

this is a very painful uncomfortable condition so I know that you will know when it is time for her ...

Very sad...:tears2:


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## LuvaBun (Sep 25, 2009)

I am so sad to hear the developments with Luna . I can only imagine how hard this must be, knowing that your time together is limited. I do know, however, that Luna couldn't be better cared for or spoiled with you and her Dutchie friends.

Prayers going out for you and Luna, that she can be happy and pain free for as long as possible :hug:

Jan


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## myheart (Sep 27, 2009)

*LuvaBun wrote: *


> I am so sad to hear the developments with Luna . I can only imagine how hard this must be, knowing that your time together is limited. I do know, however, that Luna couldn't be better cared for or spoiled with you and her Dutchie friends.
> 
> Prayers going out for you and Luna, that she can be happy and pain free for as long as possible :hug:
> 
> Jan



Thanks Jan. Sorry I didn't respond sooner, but sometimes I just have to step away and enjoy having Luna Belle in my life for one more day. She is amazing with everything she is going through. I will say she still has quality of life yet. She sure still knows how to eat like a little piggie. When her eyes tell me she is done with dealing with the pain, I will know what to do....

myheart


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## tonyshuman (Sep 28, 2009)

thinking of you guys...


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## myheart (Oct 4, 2009)

This is my final post on this thread... Luna passed away last night (10-03-09) around 8:00pm. She is now pain-free and enjoying all of the kale and parsley she wants!!!

I only wanted to post here with information about what Luna went through during her last few days. I don't believe there is any real information about what to expect for a rabbit during it's last few days with renal failure. I am sure that every rabbit will experience things a bit differently, but this was what Luna went through.

She started to become a bit weaker everyday and a bit more "spaced out." She would sit like she was in a daze, then wake up and be alert and ready for snacks. Little by little she seemed more dazed, which was probably the result of toxin build-up in her blood stream. Her moosh area also became very wet, as the vet had said was the cause of the production of extra mucus, again because of the increase in toxins. Her bottom also became very wet with urine, no matter how much I tried to keep her clean. At the end, she was having a difficult time breathing and would take large gasping breaths every so often. I am sure that she had to be filling up with fluids or mucus either in her lungs or her chest. She passed away peacefully and without a struggle. 

I would appreciate it if a mod could mark this thread appropriately. Thanks to every one who offered prayers and hugs. I like to think that Luna enjoyed these few months she had since her diagnosis. She was such a good girl for everything and tolerated so much. I couldn't have had a better patient for all of the meds and fluids. 

Rest pain-free Luna Belle, my little ray of blue sunshine. :rabbithop

myheart


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## Maureen Las (Oct 4, 2009)

Oh I am so very very sorry Janet

What a loss to You! 

No one could have given a bunny a better quality and loving life than you ..

She was so very very lucky to have you

Binky fee Luna!
"HUGS"

MAUREEN

:bigtears:


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## LovableLops (Oct 4, 2009)

*myheart wrote: *


> This is my final post on this thread... Luna passed away last night (10-03-09) around 8:00pm. She is now pain-free and enjoying all of the kale and parsley she wants!!!
> 
> I only wanted to post here with information about what Luna went through during her last few days. I don't believe there is any real information about what to expect for a rabbit during it's last few days with renal failure. I am sure that every rabbit will experience things a bit differently, but this was what Luna went through.
> 
> ...


I am so sorry, i didnt know anything about this.
i cried when i read it..i am truly sorry.


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## kahlin (Oct 4, 2009)

I'm so sorry for your loss. You did everything you could. I'm sure she knows how much you loved her.


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## slavetoabunny (Oct 4, 2009)

Oh no....I am so sorry for your loss.


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## tonyshuman (Oct 4, 2009)

I am so sorry that she is no longer with you, but I am so happy that she left this world peacefully. She was so treasured in her life and such a special bunny. She deserved all the love, berries, snuggles, and special care she got and more, and she showed that she appreciated it and loved you right back. I hope you and the rest of the trio are doing ok. I know that you did the very best by her that anyone could do. It may hurt now, but she was so special and had such a wonderful life with you, and I hope that can help you heal.
[hugs x 100000000]
You are not the only one who is crying for Miss Luna today.


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## kirbyultra (Oct 5, 2009)

Hugs for you Janet... And Patrick and Zappa. I am sure Luna was as happy and as well cared for as can be in her final weeks. You did the best you could. I'm so sorry for your loss.


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## Fancy77 (Oct 5, 2009)

So sorry 4 your loss


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## LuvaBun (Oct 6, 2009)

*NO!!!

:bigtears:

*I'm so very sorry. Luna had a special place in our hearts. We will miss her so much 

Jan


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## Amy27 (Oct 11, 2009)

I am so sorry Janet. Claire is right that you are not the only one crying for Miss Luna. She was special to a lot of people on here. I hope you and the other bunny's are doing okay. If you need anything let me know, my PM box is always open.


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