# Cross Breeding Flemish Giants



## weedflemishgiants

Hi. I'm just venting a little. Why, why when people sell flemish don't they tell people it is not a pure bred Flemish?

This is happening all over our state and it is getting really hard to find breeders who have Flemish Giant pedigrees that are actually Flemish Giants. And it is a problem.

Recently. a friend of mine had a blue buck he bought. Paid a fortune for it and it ended up with terrible malocclusion. He called the breeder, said I can't breed this rabbit, and she said I will be happy to take it back- his brother just died and I need that Harlie gene. Harlie gene? My friend had been under the impression that his blue buck he bought was all flemish, not part Harlie. 

Another friend of mine called me this morning. From another state altogether. She had taken a doe I bought from someone that was supposed to be a pure bred Flemish, I also thought was pure bred, I paid a fortune for it, and it was an awful rabbit. So bad that when she hit the tables, the judge said, you need to strangle this rabbit there is something wrong with it.

Anyway I gave her to a friend who wanted her for a pet. But then she turned around and bred her anyway. To a lovely Flemish buck. The babies were born a ten days ago and two of them have NO EYEBALL. NO EYEBALL. I asked her how the doe appeared now and she said definately not show quality. So I did some research and found out that the father was a fawn flemish but the mother was a black beveran.

I give up. If I buy any outside Flemish Giant rabbit ever again, it will have to come from back east I guess cause who knows what you are going to get out here.

The breeders need to tell people when they cross breed like this. It is not right. And who can tell just from looking at the pedigree?


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## BlueCamasRabbitry

Oh wow, I'm sorry for that large mess. I would be angry too if someone sold me wha they said was a purebred rabbit!


I'd just like to know though, how did you research what breed the mother was? Is there like a website where you can research parents of rabbits, etc.? 

Emily


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## FallingStar

Oh my! What a big huge mess you were in! :grumpy:I would be very mad, probably close to be giving up too.


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## weedflemishgiants

No. No website. What I did is just started calling breeders on the pedigree and just flat out asking. People never think to do that.

But like for me, I know all the breeders on my pedigrees. But when there is a new breeder on it, then sometimes you just have to call up and say hey. So I started with the person who bred and they said oh the mother is from such and so and I called so and so and literally asked them.

So without naming names which I don't do I called the guy and said Hi I had one of the babies of your ABC black doe. And we got to talking about his ABC black doe and lo and behold ABC black doe was a beveran. And so I asked him, do you commonly cross beverans with flemish. Very easy, very easy.

Thing is most people just take their pedigrees for granted and don't double check.

Like I said- I know just about every breeder on my pedigrees. And I am running five and six generation pedigrees. But I am having problem buying stock now cause we are not necessarily sure who has what anymore and it is a problem.

But here is the deal- say you have a beveran that is ear tagged and registered. and you sell a baby to somebody who breeds it to a flemish and gets show babies. And they take those babies to the show and they win three legs and so they want to register that baby when it is a senior. Well, as far as I know, ARBA will kick it back and they can't register that rabbit. Because in the second generation the ear number, breeder name or whatever belongs to a beveran and not flemish. This is what I have been told anyway.

Happens sometimes.


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## BlueGiants

I'm sorry you've seen the bad side of breeders. I've said it before, I'll say it again, a pedigree is only as good as the person that wrote it. There is such a thing as ethics. Some people don't have any. A pedigree only has space for ear numbers and names, weight and color... nothing about what BREED the rabbit was... so it's up to the breeder to be honest and ethical.

Not all purebred Flemish are show quality.And in all fairness to breeders, it canbe difficult to judge a young rabbit as to how it will look as an adult. You can sell a Junior that has no DQ's and you think it's going to be show quality... and it turns Senior age and it's shoulders are too low or it's loin is too narrow or ears are too short or ... whatever.

Just for your information, a Harli can still be a pure bred Felmish. Harlequin is a term for a "Merle" or tri-colored Flemish. Not an accepted Variety at all, but a lot of the West Coast Flemish carry the trait. A number of years ago, a certain breeder was working on a "new" Variety... that didn't work out. And he had to do SOMETHING with all those rabbits. He sold them as a RARE color. Got a lot of money for some of them... A lot of them ended upwith other breeders. Some knew what they got, some didn't. Most reputable breeders sold them off as pet quality. But the damage was done. The genes were "out there".

I know how you feel. I very seldom add an "outside" rabbit to my herd. And when I do, I'm very careful who I buy from. Stick with it and you'll learn who has the better rabbits, who is honest and ethical, who breeds the most consistant type. Keep your ears open at shows, ask a lot of questions, talk to judges (not during the show!), find a mentor. Join breed clubs. Observe the other rabbits at a show. Who gets DQ'd a lot... Who's rabbits always seem to be in good condition... You'll get to know people and their rabbits. (Wish you were on the East Coast!) 

Another observation, a "friend" doesn'ttake a poor quality rabbit after you gave it to her as a pet and breed it. 


Edited to add: This can happen in ANY breed... not just Flemish. I won't begin to tell you what I've seen come out of someMini Rex breedings!


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## weedflemishgiants

Okay alright. we were wondering about that. In fact, one of the breeders actually brings "Tri Flemish" to shows and we were all wondering what a tri flemish was. So it is actually something someone was working on. Okay. Because now there are a whole lot of tri flemish out here and it is actually causing some rifts. 

I really don't have a problem with what people breed. I just really need my flemish to be flemish not crossed with anything else. I like to be told. 

My interest is only in fawn, white, and now sandy Flemish Giants. I decided a long time ago that I do not have the time, space and money to provide for more than one breed of rabbit. So I am pretty pushy on the colors and rabbits I do buy.

That is why I asked Bob Bolyard to send me some of his flemish from Kentucky ARBA. One thing is absolutely for sure with the Bolyards- you are getting pure flemish from them period. LOL



But hey- I didn't know that. Merles huh? They are quite pretty really- they just don't belong on a show table until they are approved.


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## weedflemishgiants

And that is a good question. Why doesn't ARBA require the pedigree to state what breed the rabbit is? I mean they do at the top- Flemish Giant pedigree. So everyone, even ARBA is assuming that all of those generations are all Flemish. And if there is a harlie in there, shouldn't that be under the color rather than calling it a blue or something? I mean it could say blue harlie, or black harlie.


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## weedflemishgiants

I wish I was on the east coast too. I mean you guys have so many flemish back there. But oh well. It is what it is.


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## RunnyBabbitRabbitry

I hate to hear that you are having this problem. I have had my Flemish get with another breed by accident and have an OOPs! litter (always make sure that cage door is shut tight!) but I would never say that they were pure Flemish. Here (on the east coast) we have alot of that going on with Mini Rex and Jersey Wooly. My friends are breeding Mini Rex and having things come out of them that should not be, I have been having the same problem with Jersey Wooly. 

On Pedigrees, I think that it should say what breed the rabbit is. I have seen Lionhead pedigrees and you may be aware that some of them mix Netherlands in with them, on the Lionhead pedigrees I have seen it will say ND after the name of the rabbit. This lets you know that it was a Netherland. I think this is a smart idea. I understand people want to make new varieties and new breeds but they need to inform people that they sell or give rabbits to.

IMO.


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## weedflemishgiants

I agree completely. In fact it wouldn't even be something to discuss if the pedigrees simply noted the truth of the animal.


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## BlueGiants

It would be nice if all pedigree's were true and honest. But people write the pedigree's and people are not all honest and ethical.


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