# French Angora, Flemish Giant Mix or Dutch??



## Wooly Hopper (Jun 8, 2012)

So hereâs the dilemmaâ¦
My dear friend raises French Angoras for their fur. Every 3 months she comes over with an entire truck load of them â¦ well it seems that way but usually itâs about 10 buns, and we have a harvesting party. We let them loose in my living room and one by one they each get clipped to collect the wool. I love it, so much and each one is adorably sweet. Sometimes theyâll even try to knock one another off my lap to get groomed next!

She knows someday Iâd love to have a house bunny again. I had one years and years ago. A mini rex that loved to lounge on the back of the couch and nuzzle against whoever sits down near him. He passed away a long time ago. She said that at the moment, she has space for all her buns, but..if there comes a time where she needs to place a buck or two because of lack of room, she would like to have them placed with me. Sheâd take the wool when it was time for sheering of course but the buns would be mine. I like that they are big bunnies and my big dog seems to love laying in the living room when the others come over for their grooming.

Butâ¦.

I have another friend who has a litter of Flemish giant/Hotot mixed babies.. and is having a hard time placing the boys. Sheâs asking me to take one because she only has one small hutch and the family is getting squished inside the tiny space. Theyâve never been inside, let alone on a harness or allowed to bounce around on the grass, let alone had people interaction other than tossing food into their hutchâ¦

And thenâ¦
The HS has this sweet little Dutch boy. Already neutered and everything. Heâs so adorable! When I would pet him on the nose, heâs close his eyes and fall right to sleep. Loves being held, too! But.. heâs so small. Can a tiny min bunny actually roam freely in a house? I know Mr. Bun Bun did but.. at the time my house was very small. I now live in a huge 120yr old Victorian.

I really want a French Angora! But, I feel horrible for the Flemish/Hotot babies and that Dutch is unforgettably adorable!
What would you do in this situation?


----------



## melbaby80 (Jun 8, 2012)

I'd go for the flemish/hotot babies due to their situation. They seem to be more of a need to rescue. Weird combination by the way! Flemish are pretty hardy so if size is a concern then I'd truly go for the flemish/hotot. 

The dutch is at a humane society and if he's as sweet as you say then he should do alright finding a great home. 

Angora's are tons of work, but you already know this. I had an english angora, and everything stuck to her fur, poop, pee, hay, bedding, everything. It had become to much for me so I rehomed with a great family who was into spinning. 

My vote is the flemish/hotot.


----------



## ZRabbits (Jun 8, 2012)

lol, I know I'm going to get heck for this BUT! Can't help being truthful. 

Though you would be helping the Mixed Flemish, you would be dealing with a non-social bunny. A big non-social bunny. That's something to think about. Really think about. Especially with your dog. These babies have never lived inside. 

Dutch will find a home if he's sweet. Smaller bunnies usually do. And the Dutch breed is a nice bunny to have. 

I'd go with the Angora. You know the breed, worked with it, and your dog gets along with that breed. They are very docile because of the wool gathering.

Go for what you want.

K


----------



## melbaby80 (Jun 8, 2012)

Take into account how young the flemish mix are and the others. A young rabbit can be trained, its not something that can not be fixed especially if they are young. Their situation is horrible which is what got me to choose them in the first place. 

I agree with karen on the dutch. Its like I said if he is as sweet as you say he'd find a home no problem. 

Angora's "CAN" be docile. My angora hated being groomed, but she was sweet aside from that. And it is true you know the breed. 

Still I can't help but think of the little ones in an unfortunate situation.


----------



## MyBabyHasPaws (Jun 8, 2012)

I agree about the Flemish babies. Their situation would push me to rescue one. I know they arent friendly right now, but i'm sure you could work on that since they are young. Good luck!!!!


----------



## ZRabbits (Jun 8, 2012)

As all your hearts on in the right place, and saving these flemmies from this position, is a good thought, I'm going to play devil's advocate here. What happens if it doesn't work out? What happens ifthis person's dog and the bunny don't get along? Get rid of the dog? Send the bunny to a rescue? Or just be miserable with a bunny you just can't get close to? 

I've read thread after thread, of people having problems with even babies that are skittish. That never come around if they are not socialized properly at birth. This is going to be a big bunny. 

Just something to think about. 

K


----------



## Korr_and_Sophie (Jun 8, 2012)

It is a tough choice. 
Personally, I would go with the angora. 1 I love the fluffies and have another angora so I know about the wool care. 2, they are pretty awesome rabbits and quite friendly. It sounds like you know these rabbits and are familiar with them so you know what they are like. Since you would probably get an adult, you do know what the personality would be like and your friend shoudl be up front about any issues (like spraying).

The flemish mixes will end up being large rabbits. They have not really been socialized, so that can be an issue. However, they are the ones is most need to being rescued. Due to the breeding, they would be at a higher risk of people wanting them for meat.

The dwarf at the humane society is probably at a low risk. Unless they euthanize for space on a regular basis, rabbits are usually safe. Since he is so friendly, he should get adopted quick. Many people like the small rabbits and being neutered means he won't be used for breeding. 

What you could try is taking one of the flemish mixes and seeing how that goes. You could even take a couple of the same sex and work to find them a home. It would help out your friend, but you won't be stuck with one if you find they aren't right for you. It sounds like it could be a while before you might get an angora, so this can let you have a rabbit for a while until that time comes and you can make a decision later. If you find that you like the flemish mix, but still want an angora, it could still work out with some careful planing.


----------



## Paddy Ohara (Jun 8, 2012)

As long as you have the space go for the flemish. I did get mine young but I had to redo a lot of training and socilaization after spaying and neutering them. It sounds like they are still young so you should be able to work with them. They really do not show their true personities until they are older and comfortable around people. I am a firm beleiver that a good environment will bring the positive results as will proper socialization. When I decided to keep the girl, I did so because she came right up to me and my dog and her brother was more nervous watching me from the back of the crate.They are both great animals. I haven't had any problems with my dog or any of my neighbors dogs. She is bigger than than all of myneighbors dogs which may help.

I have had minilop, dutch, mini rex, and dwarf hotot as well. They are all great but I am now a flemish addict.


----------



## ZRabbits (Jun 8, 2012)

*Korr_and_Sophie wrote: *


> It is a tough choice.
> Personally, I would go with the angora. 1 I love the fluffies and have another angora so I know about the wool care. 2, they are pretty awesome rabbits and quite friendly. It sounds like you know these rabbits and are familiar with them so you know what they are like. Since you would probably get an adult, you do know what the personality would be like and your friend shoudl be up front about any issues (like spraying).
> 
> The flemish mixes will end up being large rabbits. They have not really been socialized, so that can be an issue. However, they are the ones is most need to being rescued. Due to the breeding, they would be at a higher risk of people wanting them for meat.
> ...


Devils' Advocate again. Understand your idea of trying to save the Flemmie/Mixes from become Meat. 

But how would she not be stuck with them if it doesn't work out? Yes, helping a friend in need, good point. Helping keep big, unsocialized bunnies, good point.

But if it does not work out forthis person helping, what happens? She takes these rabbits in, basically fostering them, and then has problems socializing these big bunnies, can't find homes for big bunnies, then what? Rescue or sell for meat? And then when the opportunity comes around for her to have her Angora, which she works with her friendwith wool gathering,careful planning is needed. Would you bring another bunny in with a rabbit that has issues? Especially a big rabbit. 

Just things to think about. 



K


----------



## LindseyG (Jun 8, 2012)

Of course being the angora person i say go for the angora, that would probably be the best option out of your 3 choices.

melbaby80 wrote:


> I'd go for the flemish/hotot babies due to their situation. They seem to be more of a need to rescue. Weird combination by the way! Flemish are pretty hardy so if size is a concern then I'd truly go for the flemish/hotot.
> 
> The dutch is at a humane society and if he's as sweet as you say then he should do alright finding a great home.
> 
> ...



You should never ever expose an angora to bedding of any type. As well as always keep the hay contained in a hay rack. I rarely get mats ans never get stuff stuck in the hair of my angoras.


----------



## Nelsons_Mom (Jun 8, 2012)

Karen, 

I understand the point that you are trying to make, but I would bet a good amount of money that that super adorable dutch came from a pet store...and where do pet store bunnies come from? MILLS. There's NO socialization there. Most of it probably came down to his individual personality and whatever home he had before, and how much the people at the shelter worked with him.

Both of the breeds in that mix had a reputation to being friendly. They're young. ANY rabbit that you would get, unless it was like 6 weeks old and wanting to bond with anything would take a while to build trust with.

Besides, if everyone thought like that there would be a lot of MISERABLE rabbits in the world. 

I vote for the Flemish Mix because 

1. Having a heavy wool producer as an indoor bun is REALLY HARD. Hair is perpetually everywhere and removing a chain of poops is a nearly daily occurrence. That's why I have my girls shaved at the vet (which they have to be put under for) 2X a year and brush daily.

2. As everyone said, the dutch will have no problem finding a home.

3. All of my rabbits have come to me under socialized. And, while they each have a different degree of what sort of contact they want from me, there is NO better feeling in the world than when a rabbit you've been sitting with and talking to for two weeks comes up and asks for your attention. It's a bond you work harder for, but in the end it is so beyond worth it it will send you into tears.


----------



## LindseyG (Jun 8, 2012)

Also these are french angora, they do not have fuzzy undersides, thr wool is only on their back. My english on the otherhand do need to have their privates trimmed. The only time they get poop stuck though is when they get diarrhea.


----------



## Wooly Hopper (Jun 8, 2012)

Every one of you have given me so much more to think about. My gratitude for your insight is boundless! I canât thank you enough.

So this is what Iâve gathered on this choice so far..

1.	The Dutch should be fine at the HS. I was there and they only had three bunnies. All of the sweet, neutered and spayed. So, Iâm going to believe that they will be fine along with the Dutch boy. Plus, they are on line and get lots of exposure to the public on their own availability. I can even spread the word among my friends. Heâs also just too small. Though my dog is slow moving, gentle and sweet, he is also very large at 150lbs. Heâs a Great Pyrenees and a big poof-ball himself. I know he wouldnât intend to hurt the bunny but..small vs large can equal a really bad âsquishâ factor if he canât see the bunny and makes a wrong step. Itâs part of why I want a rather good size bunny. The French Angora, though not a giant, seems to be the right size for him to be fully aware of and actually very happy. He thinks theyâre tiny sheep to be guarded and protected. Heheh
2.	The Flemish Giant/Hotot babiesâI admit they are at high risk. I live in a rural town. I live inside the City Limits but more then 3/4th of the community is farm land split between Ranchers and Farmers. Just about everything is eatable here. For example, Iâve seen one of my friends pull over the side of the highway, pluck a huge snapping turtle out from the bushes (how she saw him, Iâll never know) by the tail and toss him in the back of the truck.. only to serve him up after 4 weeks of soaking him in a clean water tub so he didnât taste like âmudâ. Butâ¦ Iâm not that experienced with taming a bunny down. I just donât know how that could be done. Iâve never met an aggressive or skittish bunny. Iâm not looking for an âeasyâ wayâ¦ Iâm just not so sure of what skills are involved.
3.	Now for the French Angora. Yes, it will be a long while before one comes my way. He will be an adult but it could also save him from being meat, too. My friend does run a farm.. and though sheâs never butchered any of her Angoras, she does raise meat rabbits to help feed her family. I know it sounds ugly and Iâm pretty sure it wonât ever come to that for her, butâ¦ nothing is ever for certain and out here, most everything gets eaten. Especially in this struggling economy (my town is 40% below the national poverty level.)


----------



## ZRabbits (Jun 8, 2012)

*Nelsons_Mom wrote: *


> Karen,
> 
> I understand the point that you are trying to make, but I would bet a good amount of money that that super adorable dutch came from a pet store...and where do pet store bunnies come from? MILLS. There's NO socialization there. Most of it probably came down to his individual personality and whatever home he had before, and how much the people at the shelter worked with him.
> 
> ...



As I know many breeders, responsible that is, and know Pet Stores that do work with rescues and responsible breeders, I have to respectfully disagree that all Pet stores carry Mill bunnies. 

Yes some Pet Stores do use mills, but some are very reputable and sell good, socialized bunnies. 

And two weeks, you are already bonded with under socialized bunny? Just with your voice? You must be doing this for years. 

K


----------



## fuzz16 (Jun 9, 2012)

I agree with z, dont get one bc you pity it. Get it bc you will enjoy it. The fibers from the angora would be useful if you spin, and you would be very proud of the things you make from their fur. 

I found my boy and his sister on the side of a road ina wire kennel with a dead sibling. No food water or hay. Its been a monthish..pidge will nudge me and jump all over me and lie down on my back or arm. He just wont lemme pet him unless he wants it. Lol. When i first brought them home they didnt move for hooours and i couldnt touch them fr a week.if your pateint, its a lot easier to gain their trust when their naive and young than older rabbits stuck in their ways. 
I cant imagine the flemish mixes will get over 8ishlbs so not huge but they are sweeter than other breeds.

You need to decide what you want in a rabbit. Temperments change after puberty too.


----------



## LindseyG (Jun 9, 2012)

Honestly go with what you like! Getting a rabbit is your choice and you are stuck with whichever rabbit you choose. You should choose one you want.


----------



## Wooly Hopper (Jun 9, 2012)

LindseyG wrote:


> Honestly go with what you like! Getting a rabbit is your choice and you are stuck with whichever rabbit you choose. You should choose one you want.




The more I think about it, the more I realize you're right. It's a 7 to 12 year comitment.

I'm going to wait for the French Angora. It will be months and months but what's a few months compared to 12 years? He will be worth the wait. 

Plus, it'll be nice to keep my home open for one of the extra bucks when my friend will need the placement the most.


Thank you, everyone! You have been incredable help.


----------



## Nelsons_Mom (Jun 9, 2012)

Wooly Hopper, I am SO glad you made the choice that is right for you. A rabbit is such a big commitment and it is best to know what is comfortable for you. I'm looking forward to seeing you around and your future little fuzzball c:



I am very sorry that I am hijacking a little, but I debated a long time over whether I wanted to respond to something that Karen said and decided that I would just continue to let it fester and make me feel anxious all day if I didn't.

ZRabbits wrote:


> *
> 
> As I know many breeders, responsible that is, and know Pet Stores that do work with rescues and responsible breeders, I have to respectfully disagree that all Pet stores carry Mill bunnies.
> 
> ...


*

Karen,

I want to start this out by saying that I deeply respect you. You have such a mission in your breeding, and you show such care and compassion towards your rabbits and all the ones that you see in photos on here. I wish that I didn't disagree with you on this, but I do.

I know that a lot of PetSmarts (and a few other national chains) work with cat rescue networks around the nation and donate space to them within the store so that they can get adopted, which is an amazingly generous thing and saves a lot of cats lives. But, the animals purchased through a large chain store (with the exceptions of the animals that are sometimes brought in as surrenders to the rare stores who will allow them) are from mills.

Most mom and pop type stores will have rabbits from small BYBs, who, for all I know, take great care of their animals (but having been to a pet store and seen the babies that I have PERSONALLY SEEN that might not reflect the conditions in other areas, I tend to doubt it.)

I am sorry if I insult your friends because I respect them because I respect you, but I don't think it is at all a responsible breeding practice to supply to pet stores. 

There no choice of who ends up with those babies, there is no way of contacting those adopters, and therefore have no way of knowing the progress of the lines without keeping a majority of the litter. What if there's a hereditary defect? The breeder would have no way of contacting the adopters to have their animals tested or warning. Or, worse, what if the breeder doesn't know because the adopter is unable to contact them? And that line is continued, sending a lot of potentially sick rabbits into the world when the line should have been discontinued?

While everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I know what I have said here will not change a lot of people's minds. But, to me, breeders have a HUGE responsibility to their breed and not following up with adopters is a break in the trust that someone should have with a breeder. 

And also, my under socialized (under socialized =/= feral) rabbit example was an example of progress, not me transforming a cowering rabbit into a snuggly baby in a matter of days like your response made it seem. To be honest, I found it hurtful that my experience that I hold very dear to me was undermined like that.*


----------



## ZRabbits (Jun 9, 2012)

*Nelsons_Mom wrote: *


> Wooly Hopper, I am SO glad you made the choice that is right for you. A rabbit is such a big commitment and it is best to know what is comfortable for you. I'm looking forward to seeing you around and your future little fuzzball c:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*
*
Wooly Hopper, 

Truly glad to hear you made a choice. Glad that you look at a bunny, not just more for a companion, but you are utilizing it for what it was bred for, wool. Just like some breeds are utilized for meat. So glad you came on to show that a rabbit can benefit others in many ways. And your love of that breed of bunny. My Lion Heads, though have wool, doesn't put out what an Angora does. Mine are more "fancy". Just like other dwarf breeds. They are utilized more in shows and as pets. 

Hoping you'll let us know about your angoras. Would love to see pictures. Very much a fan and admirer of all who do collect wool. Amazing what can be made by it. 


Nelson_Mom,

I would like to take this time to let you know that your image of me, that you say you respect, is wrong and will take this time to let you know my true reasoning of why I decided to get rabbits. Though I plan to breed, and I do in fact know Pet Store Owners, and have in fact rescued a bunny from being a snack for a snake (Yes, truly know that snakes got to eat), I don't fit into that box you put me as a breeder or that I may eventually sell to a Pet Store. 

I'm well aware that Pet Stores do not devulge all the information that you stated would be best for the owner. I doubt breeders buy their breeding or show stock from Pet Stores, but hey maybe some do. But there are laws on the books, especially in New Jersey, that must be adhered too to sell any small animal. And regarding PetSmart, my hats off to them, they open their doors to rescue groups, to bring their bunnies to the store, to have people ask questions and talk about adoptions. The reason I know this is that I looked into a Rescue group and that's what they want out of their Foster Parents. Time to come out and show your bunnies.

This is the Rescue Group that I applied for an application and got information on to become a Foster Parent. As I'm still learning myself about all breeds and ways of bunnies, I feel in the future, this could be an avenue that I would like to eventually travel.

http://www.forbunnysakerabbitrescue.org/

*3. All of my rabbits have come to me under socialized. And, while they each have a different degree of what sort of contact they want from me, there is NO better feeling in the world than when a rabbit you've been sitting with and talking to for two weeks comes up and asks for your attention. It's a bond you work harder for, but in the end it is so beyond worth it it will send you into tears.
*
Hurt feelings? I felt you were being irresponsible, as someone with lots of background already on socializing under socialized rabbits, to tell a person that this experience will happen in two weeks. As someone who just started, it took me weeks to get my two to come to me. And they were socialized. These are not dogs or cats. Though domesticated, they are still wild animals. Prey animals, that show different ways of socializing than dogs and cats. Though you wanted to steer this person to saving those flemmie mixes that had no socialization whatsoever, which I understand, you made it sound that any novice can do it. And that would be hurtful to the bunny as well as the novice owner. Because it is an awesome experience. 

I walked into rabbits to help sooth my pain from the loss of my Son. I found out how awesome rabbits can be and all the different functions a rabbit has, show, pet, wool, meat. But on this forum I found other ways a bunny can fulfill their lives and the lives of their owners. Through agility and therapy. 

IMHO, the best way a rabbit can be happy is if the person getting that bunny, for whatever reason, knows what a rabbit is all about. Maybe that will stop a lot of people giving up on them, breeding irresponsibly, or getting rabbits, because they want to help, and ending feeling guilty because they need to return that rabbit. 

Wow, I think I found my new mission in life. Being a true advocate for the Rabbit. 

There is good and bad in all, but if you have the knowledge, you can bet your bottom dollar 99% of the time you will have a good experience, (life throws that sad 1%) whichever way you get the bunny that steals your heart. 


K


----------



## melbaby80 (Jun 9, 2012)

*LindseyG wrote: *


> Of course being the angora person i say go for the angora, that would probably be the best option out of your 3 choices.
> 
> melbaby80 wrote:
> 
> ...


Bedding as in newspaper. I never use the other junk out there. And hay lol they pulled it out of their hay rack, there was no stopping it


----------



## ZRabbits (Jun 9, 2012)

*melbaby80 wrote: *


> *LindseyG wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Of course being the angora person i say go for the angora, that would probably be the best option out of your 3 choices.
> ...


Then good you found a good Wool spinner to take that sweetie off your hands. It takes a special person to raise a Wool breed. Lots of dedication. And like you, think them as pets. 

Regarding bedding, I use Eco bedding, which by far beats newspaper, because it is sterilized. I'll pay a little bit more, but know My Rabbits are completely safe from any harm. And regarding the hay, constantly taking it out of their fur. But then again, I do lots of grooming, knowing that my Lion Heads need lots of dedication in grooming.

K


----------



## melbaby80 (Jun 9, 2012)

Karen if you're thinking of being an rabbit advocate as you claim then you need to check out the definition. You claimed Nelsons_Mom was being irresponsible, but I feel you are too in the contradicting information you're throwing out there about yourself. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_advocate

Animal advocates view the consumption of animals used for meat as inhumane. They primarily follow a vegan life style. PETA and the humane society of America push for ad's in a vegan lifestyle. Currently the humane society of America is trying to stop commercial farming of pigs and are pushing for alternatives to meat. 

"Veganarchism is the political philosophy of veganism (more specifically animal liberation) and anarchism, creating a combined praxis as a means for social revolution.[19][20] This encompasses viewing the state as unnecessary and harmful to animals, both human and non-human, whilst practising a vegan diet. Veganarchists either see the ideology as a combined theory, or perceive both philosophies to be essentially the same.[21] It is further described as an anti-speciesist perspective on green anarchism, or an anarchist perspective on animal liberation.[20]

The term was popularised in 1995 with Brian A. Dominick's pamphlet Animal Liberation and Social Revolution, described as "a vegan perspective on anarchism or an anarchist perspective on veganism".[18] The 18-page pamphlet explains how many young anarchists in the 1990s had been adopting deep ecological (animal-inclusive and anti-speciesist) mindsets as part of an overall green anarchist political philosophy. Similarly animal liberationists were becoming increasingly influenced by anarchist thought and traditions, thus becoming veganarchists and adopting an overall praxis.[20]"

You stated in the introductions section that you feel this forum should also include sections on rabbits as meat. I find that contradicting to your statement of being a rabbit advocate. I find being part of a PET forum should also be separated from pets being viewed as meat. Just a thought.


----------



## fuzz16 (Jun 9, 2012)

I advocate for the support that all animals should be rsised and killed humanely, farm animals are what they are. An advocate does not put an animal on a pedestool and call them god like peta wants ppl to do. And peta is not even a orginization that should be mentioned with anything regarding animal welfare/rights


----------



## melbaby80 (Jun 9, 2012)

Advocates DO put animals on a pedestal. PETA is an example of an animal advocate group gone array. They are indeed a animal rights group regardless of how extreme they are. (Not that I defend them, they are not my kind of group and nor is the humane society for America) 

The animal humane society for America also puts animals on a pedestal as they push for the vegan way of life. Don't believe me? Go to their website and become part of their fan club on facebook. You will see exactly what I am referring to. Both are advocates for animal rights regardless of how you personally view them. 

I would never consider myself an advocate for animals because I consume meat and meat products. I do not purchase organic because it is pricey, but I believe in the humane treatment of animals. 

My point is if you're going to advocate for animal rights or consider yourself an advocate then state you're okay with America's 3rd largest pet population as being viewed for meat consumption both ideals are contradicting and irresponsible in terms of your means of education.


----------



## ZRabbits (Jun 9, 2012)

*melbaby80 wrote: *


> Advocates DO put animals on a pedestal. PETA is an example of an animal advocate group gone array. They are indeed a animal rights group regardless of how extreme they are. (Not that I defend them, they are not my kind of group and nor is the humane society for America)
> 
> The animal humane society for America also puts animals on a pedestal as they push for the vegan way of life. Don't believe me? Go to their website and become part of their fan club on facebook. You will see exactly what I am referring to. Both are advocates for animal rights regardless of how you personally view them.
> 
> ...


I'm not a veggan. I absolutely love steak and potatoes. I'm still by right allowed to speak about rabbits. 

Also as you state the stats on rabbits viewed for meat consumption, would you please look up the stats of people on unemployment, retired, or working to survive. I did. 

A person, do does not view the WHOLE picture. is contradiction and irresponsible IMHO.

That's what a forum who educates people about a bunny will be successful at. It's a shame in fighting for a cause, the view narrows and the message gets lost. Seen it happen with other activists and other issues. Thankfully that's not how I view an advocate.

K


----------



## melbaby80 (Jun 9, 2012)

*ZRabbits wrote*


> Also as you state the stats on rabbits viewed for meat consumption, would you please look up the stats of people on unemployment, retired, or working to survive. I did.
> 
> A person, do does not view the WHOLE picture. is contradiction and irresponsible IMHO.


Okay? What does that have to do with my point? It doesn't because regardless of the unemployment rate, retired or working to survive not everyone raises rabbits for meat. Your whole picture is vague. My father is retired and he's not raising rabbits for meat. My grandparents are retired and they are not raising rabbits for meat. My brother is mentally disabled and not working yet he is not raising rabbits for meat. I have family and friends who do not work and live off what they can, but are not raising rabbits for meat or any other kind of animal. 

Point again is "Animal advocates view the consumption of animals used for meat as inhumane. They primarily follow a vegan life style". That's my point and I find your two views contradicting of one another to then turn around and try to educate on contradicting facts and call someone else irresponsible, that to me does not make sense. 

Sure you're entitled to debate, defend your opinion, etc, but to throw the word "irresponsible" out on someone for stating opinions is just an uneducated assumption. That is where I am going with all this. I felt bad for nelsons_mom when you stated such. My holland was not socialized and it took her 1 day to become extremely social to the point where she is sleeping on me or my husband. I have taken in dogs who were abused and socialized them in a week. Her response was not irresponsible. Sure some animals are harder then others but if an animal is a baby then socializing can be easy. Research, its not that difficult to do.
I apologize for hijacking this thread. :threadhijacked: I won't be posting on this topic anymore. I just had to defend the integrity of someone's comment.


----------



## LindseyG (Jun 9, 2012)

What makes a rabbit any more of a pet than a chicken, cow, or pig?? All three make wonderful pets, pigs are even smarter than dogs. yet people still eat them. I had pet chickens at one point, i liked them just as much as i do my rabbits. People eat them every day and it doesnt make them monsters. You can love an animal and support that animal and still eat it. At least most rabbits that are eaten arent tortured like the animals wrapped up nicely in those packages from the grocery store.
What karen im sure was trying to get at was people try to support themselves and their families anyway they can. Many want to know where their food comes from and in some places rabbits are the only legal "livestock" animal they can raise.
As for socialization it does make a huge difference how a rabbit is brought up but it also has to do with breed or genetics. I adopted my flemish at the age of 4 months and to this day he is still untame, he is two years old now.


----------



## blondiesmommie (Jun 9, 2012)

Ah heck, maybe you should get more than 1 lol


----------



## ZRabbits (Jun 9, 2012)

*LindseyG wrote: *


> What makes a rabbit any more of a pet than a chicken, cow, or pig?? All three make wonderful pets, pigs are even smarter than dogs. yet people still eat them. I had pet chickens at one point, i liked them just as much as i do my rabbits. People eat them every day and it doesnt make them monsters. You can love an animal and support that animal and still eat it. At least most rabbits that are eaten arent tortured like the animals wrapped up nicely in those packages from the grocery store.
> What karen im sure was trying to get at was people try to support themselves and their families anyway they can. Many want to know where their food comes from and in some places rabbits are the only legal "livestock" animal they can raise.
> As for socialization it does make a huge difference how a rabbit is brought up but it also has to do with breed or genetics. I adopted my flemish at the age of 4 months and to this day he is still untame, he is two years old now.


People like this aren't worth it Lindsey. They refuse to open their minds and will bully their way to what they want and than go haha see this is what everyone wants. 

K


----------



## fuzz16 (Jun 10, 2012)

Lindsey, wondering about the amount of care on an angora. You mentioned you cant use litter ect bc it sticks to their fur. Keep them shaved?


----------



## LindseyG (Jun 10, 2012)

melbaby80 wrote:


> *LindseyG wrote: *
> 
> 
> > Of course being the angora person i say go for the angora, that would probably be the best option out of your 3 choices.
> ...



Oh ok, sorry I misunderstood you. Baby coat is MUCH different than the adult coat, the baby coat mats very easily and gets things stuck in it easily while the adult coat is a little easier. Once they go through their first molt the grooming gets a lot easier. I keep one of my angoras in a "puppy clip" though, I shave his hair exept for his ears, he is happy this way and he is free from tangles and can run and play in the hay and dirt as he pleases. That said Angoras are not for everyone and it does take a dedicated person to own them.


----------



## LindseyG (Jun 10, 2012)

fuzz16 wrote:


> Lindsey, wondering about the amount of care on an angora. You mentioned you cant use litter ect bc it sticks to their fur. Keep them shaved?


I keep mine in wire cages 30x36". They have a hay rack and water bottle and toys in there. They get time to run in an xpen too. It takes about 5 minutes per day (per rabbit) to brush them out and about 10 minutes per week I spend (per rabbit) blowing them out with my blower. This loosens all the dead hair and detangles as well as gets rid of the dander that has built up under the wool. Some rabbits like my Furby who hate grooming take longer because they scratch. Actually furby is about to get clipped because he hates grooming so much and his belly is starting to get tangled. He is my only rabbit that doesn't tolerate grooming. 

Really once you get into the habit of it grooming them is just as simple as cleaning a cage or changing a water bottle.

A good solution to not using litter is to cover your litter box in wire so they don't actually ever sit in the litter. When I got cottonball from the pet shop I found him he had pine shavings embedded all in his hair. He was a mess! Everything sticks to them, they cannot have loose bedding in their cage.


----------



## melbaby80 (Jun 10, 2012)

I wanted to clip her, but she hated grooming so much and all the tutorials I looked up on youtube were not helpful, it was more of a commercial thing in terms of sheering. I just always felt like my angora was constantly having things in her fur, I even covered the litter box with chicken wire to keep her separate from her poops, but it still managed to get stuck. 

Do you record tutorials or videos for grooming? I think with the amount of people that have angora's or want them, coming from you per-say would do wonders as to how to groom them! I agree it does really take dedication and patience. 100% agree with you on that one.


----------



## LindseyG (Jun 10, 2012)

All you need is a pair of fabric shears and be careful not to cut their skin. They don't look pretty afterwards but it gets the job done! They usually even out and look good in a couple weeks... I have used electric clippers on one, it's dangerous though if you don't have a professional pair and good blades because their skin is very thin and they can get cut easily. Wish you would have asked me about the clipping before you rehomed her. 

I think I will do tutorials on the three ways that I groom, there are not many videos out there.


----------



## melbaby80 (Jun 10, 2012)

Me too, as I think she was bonding with me, but I had even emailed the breeder I got her from and she never responded back to me. At least others can learn from my mistakes and also gain some education from you as well.


----------



## Samara (Jun 10, 2012)

Did you decide on the Angora?


----------



## Korr_and_Sophie (Jun 10, 2012)

When clipping an angora, you need to be very careful with scissors. I use dog clippers and have never cut a rabbit using them, but have done some small cuts with scissors. I have done totally matted (like to the skin and it comes off in a pelt) and not cut the rabbit. 
If you can, find someone who has good tools and knows rabbits to help you. Clippers are really the only way to safely deal with any matting that is near the skin. Someone who knows rabbits will know how to handle them properly too. It usually takes me about 30-45 minutes to do Lillian my giant angora. 

As far as litter and stuff getting in the wool, I don't really have a problem. I have a grate over the litter box and I clean the box twice a week. The hay is in a hay rack, but still ends up in the box. I use fleece blankets in the cage and foam mats in the pen. Since she is litter trained, she isn't peeing and pooping all over. There really isn't anything to get stuck in the wool. The only problem is that she gets excess ceotropes, so those can make her bum dirty. I do tend to trim her belly between full clippings to help keep her cooler and will tidy up her bum as needed.


----------



## Anaira (Jun 10, 2012)

I think you guys scared Wooly_Hopper away. :C Perhaps someone should pm a mod and ask that the discussion is split off into another topic; its rather over taken the thread!  

Anyway, I know I'm late with this, but my thoughts are; huge house=take them all! lol. No, but really; perhaps you could get two? That's only if you can keep them separate until their both neutered, of course, and you're willing to try bonding males. 

My suggestion is getting a baby gate(or...maybe something sturdier, for your dog!), and splitting the house however works best, so the rabbit and dog are kept separate at least some of the time? I know the breed is gentle, but they're also huge; it cuts out the risk of accidents happening when you're out. It will also cut down the areas you have to rabbit proof.


----------



## I_heart_Fraggles (Jun 10, 2012)

I am going to ask that all future posts please stick to the topic at hand. Any arguing can be taken to PM's....


----------

